# Breeding Question



## jessnicole10 (Mar 8, 2012)

I have a black/silver standard, Bo, and he is wonderful. I've thought about breeding him but I'm waiting until he is at least two years old, which will be in November. 

Today, I took him to a Bark in the Park at a baseball game, where we met a 6 month old red standard, Lucy. Of course we had to stop and meet her, because I am just in love with standards since I got him. Lucy's owners came up to me later in the game and asked if Bo was neutered and if I planned on it. I told them I hadn't quite decided yet and they said if I decided not to they planned on breeding Lucy, and to let them know if I might be interested.

Neither of us are interested in making money off of it, but I would like to see some pups out of Bo. And I would love a red standard of my own, so I could potentially get one from this match.

So, if I do decide to breed him with her, or any standard, where do I begin?


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## marbury (May 1, 2013)

Usual preamble here, I'm new to spoodles. I've been in GSDs for years... so take it worth its salt. 

1) Health testing, both parties. At the very least hips and eyes (Canine Health Information Center: CHIC Information)
2) Outside evaluation of both dogs. Show ring, professional breeders, local clubs, at least. We all have 'kennel blindness'; our dogs are always perfect, as far as we're concerned! I know I always appreciate having a third party either affirm what I see or clue me into things I might have missed.
3) Dam must be at least 2 years of age (obviously, to fulfill #1)
4) Full understanding and agreement on costs of the litter. Do you split costs? Are all potential whelping costs responsibility of dam? Is there a stud fee? Is it 'pick back'? What happens if the dam does not conceive or produce any viable puppies?
5) Agreement/understanding on the placement of puppies, what kinds of people you see your litter going to
6) Registration on puppies

That's always where folks I know start. Lots of people in the GSD world seem to condemn people who just want one litter, especially owners of would-be stud dogs simply because there's a LOT of time, effort, and money involved for folks who do it professionally or as a serious hobby. It's not for the faint of heart. But if it is done responsibly I have no issue with it.

Do think very seriously about it, though. Get to know the maybe-dam's family a lot better. They might not be the kind of people who will responsibly raise a litter. Do they know about Biosensor and early socialization? Have they had a litter before? Can they (or you!) accommodate or re-home an entire house full of adult dogs that couldn't be placed in homes or were returned? So much to think about! Luckily, you've got at least a year and a half to figure things out. 

ETA: Just wanted to over-state the importance of point #2. Consider conformation, temperament, ability, intelligence, all the breed points that you believe make your dog the BEST standard poodle he can be! Testicles do not necessarily mean a poodle is an ideal candidate to pass on genes. I'm sure your boy is awesome; just get other people to back you up on your beliefs to prove it! *thumbs up*


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## jessnicole10 (Mar 8, 2012)

This is perfect!! I really had no idea where to begin. Of course a lot of this is common sense, but it's great to have it all there to see!

Any other advice is also welcome!!


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Found myself writing a small book.... have deleted it, and will instead ask that you please search this forum for the threads that talk about responsible breeders/what is a BYB/what are the things a good breeder does.


R.E. puppies out of Bo and Lucy.

Bo will only produce red with Lucy if Bo has red in his pedigree. And silver is the one color we never breed to red........



Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Get to know the female's people well. What if you all decide to do this and you end up with a litter but find out you all can't stand each other. I know that sounds odd, but you will be dealing with each other for a while.

Also, remember, as the owner of the sire, for some odd reason, if anything goes wrong (small litter, ugly pups, birth defects, etc) people want to blame the stud. I haven't figured out how it's all his fault, but it wil be in their minds. 

How confortable are you with knowing strangers will end up with Bo's babies? Will you keep in touch with them forever, or just imagine everything's ok? Are you willing to get panicked phone calls in the middle of the night because one of the pups sneezed (it's happened to me) How familier are you with different training tecniques and behavior in case a puppy buyer calls with a question or a problem? 

Breeding is a committment - not for the 20 minutes it takes to concieve the litter, not for the two months to carry it, or even the 4 months of pregnancy, lactation, etc - but for the lifetime of the pups - maybe 12-15 years. I am still in touch with puppy buyers that have my 12+ year old puppies. I call them my 'dog-in-laws.' It's a long term committment. 

If you're hoping for little mini-Bo's and mini Lucy's, don't count on it. Each dog is an individual. Don't expect to get a perfect replica of Bo. You may get a pup that looks like him, but acts completely different. Or, one that acts like him, but looks nothing like him (especially with mixing colors). There may be no resemblance whatsoever, especially if you know little to nothing about either parents' pedigrees. THey may not even be compatible temperment or conformation wise. Really research it well before jumping in. There's a lot of fun in breeding, but a lot of hard (smelly) work and sometimes, some pretty serious heartache.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

As a red Breeder i can say that silver is something to be avoided in a pedigree.. So if this breeding were to happen, it would have to be done for a reason other that .. Does the breeder of the red female give her blessings as well? And Borderkelpie is right, there is so much to consider when breeding .. At the very least do OFA on the hips and Cerf the eyes..Cardiac is important .. vW is as is NE ...


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## jessnicole10 (Mar 8, 2012)

I'll have all of the appropriate testing done, of course. I wouldn't willingly go through with it if there was danger of genetic issues. I know a good bit about Bo's pedigree, and he actually does have some red in his background. And if there happened to not be a red, it's not a big deal. 

I understand every dog is different and there's no guarantee in what the puppies look/act like. And again, it'll be at least a year and a half before we do it, if we do. 

Part of me wants to do it because I am interested in breeding down the road, so it would be somewhat of a test run to see how I felt about it. I have never been into breeding before for anything, so I really just didn't know where to begin with it. 

Also, side note, the dam's family aren't complete and total strangers. I know their son and I have friends who know the family. 


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

jessnicole10 said:


> I have a black/silver standard, Bo, and he is wonderful. I've thought about breeding him but I'm waiting until he is at least two years old, which will be in November.
> 
> Today, I took him to a Bark in the Park at a baseball game, where we met a 6 month old red standard, Lucy. Of course we had to stop and meet her, because I am just in love with standards since I got him. Lucy's owners came up to me later in the game and asked if Bo was neutered and if I planned on it. I told them I hadn't quite decided yet and they said if I decided not to they planned on breeding Lucy, and to let them know if I might be interested.
> 
> ...


How much do you know about poodle conformation, structure, movement? Is your boy an example of the breed without any major flaws? What's his front assembly like? How is his topline? Rear? These are fundamental aspects to the soundness of a dog. In what way will breeding him better the breed? What makes him a good breeding candidate? What are his flaws? In what way will the red bitch improve upon him? In what way will he improve upon her? Remember, the goal as a breeder is to produce that perfect dog (that, of course, does not exist.)

What type of health issues are in his pedigree? Every pedigree has health issues lurking in it. It takes a lot of time and research to learn what, how much, and to see the patterns. What type of health issues are in the red bitch's pedigree? Have you looked at her pedigree? Do both parents have full AKC registration? If not, the puppies will not be registrable.

How well do you know your dog's pedigree?
I will tell you that before allowing anyone to breed to my dog, I spend hours researching the bitch's pedigree. This is important to prevent producing health issues unknowingly. It's taken me 3 years to _begin_ to have an idea of what I am looking at when I assess a pedigree. My dog is an AKC Grand Champion, years of hard work were spent proving him as a stellar example of the breed, well over a thousand dollars spent cumulatively health testing him for breeding clearances over the past few years, but I'd rather him never be bred at all than to be used on a bitch without doing everything in my power to ensure that the breeding is worth trying. And that's with the understanding that every breeding has the potential to produce health issues, no matter how careful you are. But we do have tools to help prevent what we can.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I thought if you bred silver to red or faded black to red that you mess up the red and increase the likelihood of quick fading.


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## jessnicole10 (Mar 8, 2012)

So obviously there is so much that I haven't even began to understand about this. Other than asking questions here, who can I go to to find out more?

I have read about not breeding silver and red because of fading, but I'm not in it just for the color. It would just be nice I there happened to be one.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

In addition to what has already been said...

Do you and the owner of the dam have full rights to breed these dogs? Most of the better breeders sell their poodle puppies with limited registration and/or a spay neuter contract. (I'm guessing that you and the bitch's owner have already thought about this, but thought I'd mention it just in case.)

Are you sure that you can find homes for the puppies? The last thing that you want to do is to produce puppies that you cannot place. I think this is a very important obligation of anyone who chooses to breed. I fostered a fabulous healthy 6-year-old female for a month before I was able to find her a home. I thought she'd be snapped up in no time at all, and was surprised to find how many people expressed an interest, but were for one reason or another unable to take her (or the home they could provide turned out to be totally inappropriate). So placing 8 or 10 puppies (or more) in good homes might be a challenge. Most puppy buyers prefer to go to breeders who have established a reputation.

Best of luck to you whatever you decide.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I would first start showing UKC. This is a great organization & decently laid back. All 3 of my Poodles are registered with the UKC. I have 1 showing conformation & I just set up an outside ring with mats to continue training my other 2 poodles in Rally O. All 3 of my Poodles will be in the grooming competition ring. Next start doing health tests that can be done before 2 years of age, like DM, SA, VWB etc... then at 2 your ortho x-rays, hips, elbows & then you will get a CERF exam yearly. Of course it has been stated not to breed Red to Silver so find a different female. Arpeggio Poodles is a fantastic site to begin with & one of the best color sites I know of.


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## marbury (May 1, 2013)

3dogs said:


> I would first start showing UKC. This is a great organization & decently laid back.


Agreed! UKC is very beginner-friendly. All my dogs are dual-registered (AKC and UKC) and I usually show in the latter. My first time at a UKC show I had over a dozen people helping me... my first time at an AKC show I introduced myself and my bitch to another exhibitor in my breed; she took one look at me and my girl, shook my hand and said "oh, excellent! My bitch needed another point win today." I was horrified. But... we beat her! :aetsch:


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

It's not genetically possible to produce red out of a black to red breeding UNLESS there is red behind the black. (Repeating myself, but still reading "if's" of possibility in the OP's thread)

If your boy is silver/black (does that mean he is clearing or ??) then, as the color breeders have already commented (and I am a color breeder :ahhhhh it is a color we NEVER use. In fact, we try to stay away from silver in the pedigree for generations WHENEVER possible.

That one major factor alone should dismiss your boy as a candidate for "Lucy". Not saying that, pending health clearances and evaluation, he wouldn't be a candidate for _another_ girl...

But if either you or "Lucy's" owners are to breed a quality litter, then you DO need to be concerned with color and pigment. Stellar red conformation is pretty rare and there are apricot and red males that, if "Lucy's" owners are breeding to improve, would be priority choices - though they would also mean an investment in the breeding.


Regards, 


Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## jessnicole10 (Mar 8, 2012)

I do know that Lucy's owners are not serious breeders, so I don't think their intent in breeding is to improve the red. 

Also, I don't mean to insult anyone who is a serious breeder by asking these questions! I'm just curious. I understand that it is an incredible amount of work to become and maintain reputable breeder status. 

By the way NOLA, is the reason you stay away from silver because they are both fading colors? Or is there another reason?


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

(Probably should start an entirely new thread for this reply :ahhhhh: Many of us - color breeders - disagree. AND, we don't always agree to disagree... )

Silver. It's not a "Fading" color, but it is a color that CLEARS or lightens to a different shade. And, it is a color that REQUIRES a clearing/changing as born, it is most always a shade of black.

Reds fade. Whether they are clearing (like a silver) or greying (with age and genetics that differ from pairing to pairing - for instance - using a human example: my maternal grandfather had white hair but my paternal grandfather's was salt and pepper) the degree of fading with each puppy in the litter often varies.

Some color breeders outcross for conformation with confidence that it is not affecting their color, however many red breeders will only bred red to red with their belief being they are "fixing" the color. I do not see this to be a viable plan :alberteinstein:, but many will argue vigorously that it is.... Time will tell.

What we DO agree on, is that, since we already fade, even with red to red breedings for generations, the deliberate addition of a known color that to be its color MUST clear (all but entirely change colors) would not be a smart thing to add in to our lines.


Hope that helps.



Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Can't red breeders not worry so much about the deep red color? Since they almost always fade, can't they try for a fade to lovely apricot? Apricot is a wonderful color.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Personally would not breed to a faded BAD black either.. I am a purest.. I like a black black black pedigree tho ....No Brown 
So you are correct Outwest.. Add the Brown , (that alot of bad blacks carry for ) in the pedigree, and this makes the likelihood of pink noses , so combine the two and you have a recipe for disaster....You have alot to think about jessnicole10...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

jessnicole10 said:


> I do know that Lucy's owners are not serious breeders, so I don't think their intent in breeding is to improve the red.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Why _do_ they (and you) want to breed? What do you mean they are not a serious breeder? Breeding is serious. Breeding, when done right, is a package deal. You can't just completely disregard color, but color also isn't the most important thing. If you're not bettering the breed, why breed?


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I do understand about having a litter to keep one of the pups. But if you don't have a narrow goal as to what you want to produce in the offspring then basically the 2 of you are just adding to the overpopulation of dogs in the US. Some people want to really improve the Red color to compete aagainst the Black & Whites in the ring huge under taking. Some of us want a competition dog that does Obedience, Agility, Rally etc.. some breed their Poodles as hunting dogs, some aim for Assistance Service dogs etc... as you see you should have a goal, the dams owner should have a goal & then go from there.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

What 3Dogs said. And, regardless of your goal, producing something that fits within the breed standard without major flaws should be driving your decisions, even if you're not a "serious breeder." Temperament and health are if course number one. And that doesn't mean just looking at the temperament and health of the breeding pair. You will be contributing to the gene pool and that is not at all insignificant.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Producing beautiful color (for me color is red and apricot, though color, depending on who is referring to "color", can also be brown and silver or even blue) is my goal. Added to that, healthy, long lived poodles with outstanding structure and temperaments that make the Best Ambassadors for the Poodle Breed. Titles on the front and back of my dog's names validate them by comparing them against others of the breed and rewarding them for their excellence.

Photos of the APRICOTS I have produced are on a thread in the photos section called something like Requesting Photos of Apricot Poodles. Just TOO much blatant bragging to post them again here! :wink:

It's not only the first generation we consider.

It's what would occur in the resulting generations that we value/factor, too. If you were to keep an apricot who somehow didn't silver (it takes genes from both parents) what would that animal produce when bred to x ???

LOTS to consider. I focused on your mention, OP, of a possible color pup, and that your friends have a red female, as breeding quality color is more than a casual past time of mine.

There's SO much that makes a litter though. And SO much that makes a Good Breeder.

Are you also willing to ALWAYS re-home those pups. No matter where, no matter when, no matter the cost to you to do so?

If we, as breeders, produce pups, I believe we should also, ALWAYS be responsible for those animals.

Just One More Thing to consider....


Tabatha
NOLA Standards



Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

Maybe I am just an idealist, but threads like this make me really sad.

Doesn't a whelping a good sized litter and the aftercare alone cost like 2000+?

Wouldn't the minimum health testing be like 1500+ (EACH DOG). 

I find it hard to believe that anyone would do all of that testing/cost just for the fun of it, I just picture things getting skipped over and short cuts. I am sorry if this is coming across as judgmental, I am just very skeptical. 

Your dog is amazing, I believe you. Your dogs puppies are not going to be your dog, or ever will replace your dog, they're all going to be their 'own people.'

Puppies should go to homes with lifetime support from you. I don't know, I really think maybe your first step should be co-owning a high quality breeding dog with a reputable breeder that can show you everything you need to know. I do not think you should be attached to the idea of breeding your pet.


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## jessnicole10 (Mar 8, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Why _do_ they (and you) want to breed? What do you mean they are not a serious breeder? Breeding is serious. Breeding, when done right, is a package deal. You can't just completely disregard color, but color also isn't the most important thing. If you're not bettering the breed, why breed?


When I say not a serious breeder, I just mean they aren't in the business of breeding. I suppose I should have worded that differently. Bo is currently in the process of becoming a therapy dog, and he has such a great disposition (mine and his trainer's opinion) that I would like to see pups out of him to hopefully get the same disposition. I do know that there is a possibility that none of his pups will have that same disposition, but there is always the chance that you won't get exactly what you want in a litter. I liked Lucy's disposition as well. Granted she's only six months old and has plenty of time to change, but as I said earlier, it would be at least a year and a half if we bred the two of them. And at least six months or so if I chose to breed him with another female.


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## jessnicole10 (Mar 8, 2012)

MaryLynn said:


> Maybe I am just an idealist, but threads like this make me really sad.
> 
> Doesn't a whelping a good sized litter and the aftercare alone cost like 2000+?
> 
> ...


I completely understand this! I was simply curious as to where to begin when it comes to breeding. I fully planned to have all of Bo's health testing done anyway, whether I breed him or not. And I'm not totally attached to the idea of breeding, I'm just very interested in it.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

It sure does not hurt to ask.. And I am glad that you did . You have learned alot , and now you can make an informed decision .. Curiosity is a very good thing ..


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

jessnicole10 said:


> When I say not a serious breeder, I just mean they aren't in the business of breeding. I suppose I should have worded that differently. Bo is currently in the process of becoming a therapy dog, and he has such a great disposition (mine and his trainer's opinion) that I would like to see pups out of him to hopefully get the same disposition. I do know that there is a possibility that none of his pups will have that same disposition, but there is always the chance that you won't get exactly what you want in a litter. I liked Lucy's disposition as well. Granted she's only six months old and has plenty of time to change, but as I said earlier, it would be at least a year and a half if we bred the two of them. And at least six months or so if I chose to breed him with another female.


Liking one's pet's disposition, though, is not a reason to breed. Please consider all of the above information that's been shared.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I am not a breeder. Breeding the RIGHT way is way too difficult for me to consider getting involved in it. Breeding the wrong way is too distasteful me to consider getting involved in it.

Anyway, I think if you are serious about wanting to breed Bo you should step away from this pet dog Lucy and look for someone who has more experience, who can help you evaluate Bo and teach you along the way. If you're going to breed, it might as well be for a GOOD reason. There are many, many pet poodles in rescue. No need to add to that population. 

I know the owner of the pet dog Lucy is not part of this discussion, but don't forget that dog breeding is not without its risks. The bitch can suffer complications and die, the puppies can die, it can end up being very expensive and time consuming to have a litter, and you rarely recoup your costs. It's really not something to take lightly.

I see you never mentioned breeding rights. If you and Lucy's owners purchased your poodles from reputable breeders, they have limited registration with the AKC. You will likely have signed agreements with the breeders you purchased from NOT to breed these dogs. 

If you have full breeding rights, it's likely that your poodles are not from reputable breeders. This doesn't automatically mean your dogs are inferior in terms of health or conformation, but dogs from less-than-reputable breeders might have less chance of being desirable to breed. Only a lot of time and research (research your dog's pedigrees as much as possible to look for deadly health issues lurking in his genes) and money (health testing is not cheap!) will let you see if these two poodles should be bred at all. 

Regardless, it sounds like they should not be bred together. Part of being a responsible breeder (even if you only want to breed your dog once) is carefully choosing the best mate for your dog, not the most convenient mate.

Good luck!


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## jessnicole10 (Mar 8, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Liking one's pet's disposition, though, is not a reason to breed. Please consider all of the above information that's been shared.


Oh I absolutely will! Bo is only a year and a half so I have plenty of time to do more research, hopefully start with UKC (love that idea!) and make a very informed decision. I do not plan to jump into this blindly! Thanks to everyone for their input! You've all been a huge help 


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## jessnicole10 (Mar 8, 2012)

Also, according to Lucy's owners, they have unlimited registration. I currently have limited registration on Bo, but in the contract, there is no spay/neuter agreement. I have the option to switch the registration to unlimited, which I have been thinking about since I am considering breeding him. I understand that his offspring could not be registered unless both parents are unlimited. 


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

jessnicole10 said:


> Also, according to Lucy's owners, they have unlimited registration. Sent from Petguide.com Free App


How sad.  

Makes me wonder where Lucy came from that she was sold with full registration. This is NOT standard practice with responsible breeders, but is standard practice with some backyard breeders, as well as puppymills and pet store puppies. 

This is not a dog you should consider breeding Bo to, if you ever decide to breed him at all. You should talk to your own breeder about your desires. It sounds like she might be open to switching his registration to full registration. Did she tell you what you must do in order for this to happen? Health testing? Showing Bo and getting titles on him (conformation or performance)? I hope the answer is not "pay more money."


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## jessnicole10 (Mar 8, 2012)

I just sent an email this weekend to find out what I would need to do to switch him! When we got him, we were told we could switch if we ever decided to do so. Just waiting on an answer for now!

Another curiosity... (I should change my name to that :tongue Why are they not normally sold with unlimited registration?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

jessnicole10 said:


> Another curiosity... (I should change my name to that :tongue Why are they not normally sold with unlimited registration?


Responsible breeders sell companion pets with limited registration because they wish to protect the breed by preventing others from breeding what is not breeding quality. It is also done to protect a breeder's line. Limited registration generally is accompanied by a spay/neuter contract.


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## marbury (May 1, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Responsible breeders sell companion pets with limited registration because they wish to protect the breed by preventing others from breeding what is not breeding quality. It is also done to protect a breeder's line. Limited registration generally is accompanied by a spay/neuter contract.


^ Well said. Working in a vets office we see more than our fair share of people who "fell on hard financial times" and decided to "breed their AKC dog to sell the puppies for money"... only to find out that it takes waaaaay more time and money to properly raise a litter than they'd ever make off their BYB 'purebreds'.
In our area (Georgia) it's mostly pitbulls, rotties, and boxers. When I was helping reception we actually witnessed a guy setting up a stud appointment with another client in our lobby. The only requirements? Not fixed and 'has papers'. I'm sure we'll see the litter in a month or so, full of hooks and rounds and splayed with rickets because they didn't want to pay for anything better than Ol' Roy. Oh, the joys of 'full registration'.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

With my Aussie the breeder was a co-owner and she would have to approve of any breeding done. She allowed this because he was a show quality dog but she wanted to make sure if he was bred it was to an appropriate dog and that the proper health testing was done. His pasterns were a little long so she thought it best not to breed him. In order for her to allow me to buy an intact dog she had extensive talks with me in person and via email and I had to provide 3 references which she called. If your breeder just lets you switch registration for a fee I would have reservations about her. My breeder impressed upon me that if Zack was a stud his puppies were a reflection on her line and that was why she was so careful. Zack was a beautiful dog with great markings and outstanding coat and an unmatched personality but because of slightly long pasterns he was out of the running as a stud. For her a dog had to be superior to be bred, anything less was unacceptable. Her high standards was why she had such great dogs.


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## Agidog (Jun 4, 2012)

Oh and has anyone mentioned the extra costs if C section is required or very large litter and hand feeding etc. definately check all DNA for things like RD and VWD and PRA PRCD.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

or what I just went through when a whole litter got sick and needed treatment? It gets expensive and heartbreaking fast.


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## marbury (May 1, 2013)

^ Hence my suggestion that the costs (ALL the costs) be discussed in-depth BEFORE the tie

I figured the OP would get this sort of response from the forum at large. No matter what breed forum, it's always the same reaction. I must say, though, that y'all are SO much more polite than the folks at the GSD forum. They would all have immediately said "DON'T BREED, YOU'RE A CLUELESS IDIOT" and left it at that. Poodle folk are so much calmer and ready to lend a helpful hand in learning... I like you so much more already! :beerclank:


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## Poodlecat (Jul 22, 2012)

marbury said:


> ^ . I must say, though, that y'all are SO much more polite than the folks at the GSD forum. They would all have immediately said "DON'T BREED, YOU'RE A CLUELESS IDIOT" and left it at that. Poodle folk are so much calmer and ready to lehttp://www.poodleforum.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=487362nd a helpful hand in learning... I like you so much more already! :beerclank:


Yes that's much more succinct. I know Jessie, to you it sounds like maybe blah, blah, blah and in some perhaps snooty poodle peeps that want a stellar poodle and you want warm, cuddley poodle babies. What's so hard about that and look how much they sell for?

It just isn't that easy and no one hear has mentioned the dire situation that Standard Poodles are in genetically. You know, 30 or maybe 20 years ago you might have been able to put together to reasonably good looking pure bred standard poodles together for just one or 2 litters. However, due to inbreeding and what is called "breeding depression", unless you really, really know the pedigrees and what you're breeding together then you're asking for disaster. I know breeders that spend an immense amount of time studying lines and possible health issues and they've been doing this for years and there are still NO shortcuts or sure things.

Do you know of any of the autoimmune issues that plague Standard Poodles today that can NOT be tested for genetically? Have you googled "vaccinosis"? Do you understand epigenetics? What is the COI of each parent? What is the projected COI on the prospective puppies? What is their Wycliffe? Do you know that many breeders don't understand these concepts and whether they do or not, they are contributing to a dwindling healthy genetic pool, so it's best to educate ourselves on what we're contributing.

What are the pedigrees of these poodles? Do you know how to look up their pedigrees? I spoke with one lady that thought she had a solid black poodle and wanted to breed it to another solid black show dog since she loved her poodle and wanted to have another baby just like it. She had no clue of looking at pedigree, much less where to go to look for it. I looked it up for her and it turned out that the sire of her poodle that "had a little white on it" was a tuxedo parti poodle from a long line of parti's as was the dam. First, the lady was upset since she personally only preferred solids (somehow she didn't notice the sire was plainly a tuxedo parti) and went on from there.... I mentioned some of the potential genetic landmines she could be producing unknowingly and she told "that was ok since she'd just be giving the puppies to friends and family". LOL Well, guess it's not that funny but poor friends and family that may be experiencing heartache and expensive vet bills with heart problems, autoimmune issues, etc or smaller ones like entropian, hernias, splayed feet, etc etc.

Do you realize unless you are willing to feed your poodles quality (i.e, expensive) grain free diet that you more than likely are going to have issues with your pet much less their babies. Do you know how to whelp a litter? Are you prepared to go without sleep for 2 or 3 weeks checking on the dam and the pups? Do you know how much fun it is to potty train little puppies and the more the merrier! We're taking major poop patrol! lol This is if everything goes well. If not, well, be prepared for lots of expense and heartache. And if it does go well, be prepared for a lot of expense!

Someone that produces a pup should be willing to give a puppy buyer lifetime support and take the pup back plus some type of replacement guarantee in case of genetic flaws. How can you do that if you're not a committed breeder?

Looking at a spreadsheet it'll take 3 to 4 years to breakeven for most breeders IF they don't title their dogs in either performance or conformation. With showing then it's probably 5 or 6 years and that's if they knew what they were doing and started with clean genetic lines and didn't have to spay/neuter due to a problem that can NOT be tested for cropping up. There are ONLY 3 genetic tests (DM, NE & vWd)...all the rest of the tests are merely diagnostic and don't tell you what the parents will or will not produce.

Really, again, what was your reason to produce poodle babies? Because you like your poodle's temperament? Then why not go back to your breeder and buy another poodle when you're ready?

So say you produce these poodle babies? Where are they going? I know of poodle breeders that know what they are doing and really have a need for some to help them place their pups for a reasonable price. We're are talking about quality puppies with titles in their recent pedigrees. It's a tough puppy market and people now expect guarantees and want to know where you'll be for them when they have questions.

Anyway, Good luck!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Responsible breeders sell companion pets with limited registration because they wish to protect the breed by preventing others from breeding what is not breeding quality. It is also done to protect a breeder's line. Limited registration generally is accompanied by a spay/neuter contract.


Yes, I was sold my girl on limited registration with the stipulation that if ALL requested testing was done and she proved worthy of breeding that the registration could be changed to full.


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