# Ideas please, how to train Dolly not to play with rocksrock



## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Below are are couple of photos of our yard and lake lot, rocks are not going away and I need help training so this never happens again. There is an area on our acreage (around the house) that is chain linked for the girls to play, some of which is lawn, trees but also gravel pathways and firepit area. The lot at the lake is mostly gravel so there's no getting away from it, anywhere. Dolly likes to pick up rocks, throw them and pick them up again so Abbey will make chase. What we've been doing all summer and fall is to say drop it, which she does and then runs to us for a treat and/or belly rub. Sometimes that's enough to make her forget about it, but other times she goes right back to the rock either to play or pick it up, drop it, and come back for another treat or pet. Once one of them has had a rock in their mouth it becomes "the rock", so we then pick that one up and discard it. They will (mostly Dolly) pick up a rock to play, but I think we've also made it a way to get a treat or good attention. Rocks are harder to come by this time of year but they still manage to find or dig them up. So how do we go forward and prevent another accident?


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

At the lake


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Cut yourself a switch, long enuf to stand within a few feet of the dog. When it picks up a rock, smack it in the ribs, or the butt. Every time it picks up a rock, make it sting. It's called negative reinforcement. It works great!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I remember that manxcat had to use a muzzle to stop her rock eater. If you haven't done so you may want to consider training both your girls to accept a basket muzzle. I have done so with my dogs to be able to deal with situations where it might be appropriate to be able to muzzle one of them. For example if there was an injury and I thought the dog might bite because of pain and fear during the emergency.

I know that isn't what you want as a long term solution though. At the moment the first thing I think of is really deepening the reliability of the "leave it"order. The other idea I have is to make sure that you always have something to trade for the rock. I will post again if I have a more useful idea.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I did just have one other thought, although I am not so sure how well this would work. You could try putting some tabasco sauce or cider vinegar (something bad taste and bad smell) out at a tempting, but supervisable location and let her fail and get an aversive that would be a message that rocks are bad.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> Cut yourself a switch, long enuf to stand within a few feet of the dog. When it picks up a rock, smack it in the ribs, or the butt. Every time it picks up a rock, make it sting. It's called negative reinforcement. It works great!


It might, of course, make her fearful of rocks. It would almost certainly make her fearful of you, sticks, people carrying sticks...


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I would try to have other toys readily available around the yard, frisbee's, balls, rope toys. If Dolly wants to initiate play, there's something more desirable than rocks for a game of chase.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Countryboy said:


> Cut yourself a switch, long enuf to stand within a few feet of the dog. When it picks up a rock, smack it in the ribs, or the butt. Every time it picks up a rock, make it sting. It's called negative reinforcement. It works great!



No, it's called positive punishment and it's a terrible idea to strike your dog. It will make her a nervous, fearful animal who's afraid of you and/or whatever she may happen to pair together with that punishment at the time. So, it could be that a child walks past just as she gets stung by a switch. That child walking by can become to the dog something to fear or become aggressive toward. Negative reinforcement is when an aversive is applied, and then eliminated to increase the occurrence of a behavior.

As I mentioned in your other thread about Dolly's surgery, I think for management purposes, conditioning her to a basket muzzle may be the only sure fire way to prevent this activity. However, to try and train, I would say you need to supervise very carefully and even put her on a leash or long line so you can intercept BEFORE she gets the idea to grab a rock, have something for her to pick up that's safe...something novel and fun. Think of something that you can get several and toss around the yard, maybe spread a little peanut butter...just a tad to show her how much better these toys are than rocks. Make some interactive fun for you, both dogs. The only way to stop this behavior is to _prevent_ it in the first place and that's easier said than done. She must not be able to continue doing it because it's reinforcing to her. When she is prevented most of the time, but then succeeds, that's putting the behavior on a variable reinforcement schedule which strengthens that behavior. So she must not succeed at getting a rock ever. 

When you tell her "drop it" (if she does get one) I wouldn't keep giving treats but instead give her another toy to catch. What could you use that is sort of like rocks but not as small as to swallow them, not as hard on teeth and still fun? Maybe a whole bunch of tennis balls or little blocks of wood...not too small. Hmmmm...maybe someone will come up with an idea. Make them better...peanut butter?

Anyhow, as far as learning behavior goes, there are concepts that can modify behavior without all the fall-out/side effects that comes with harsh punishment. To reiterate: 1)Prevention, (don't let her continue to practice that behavior. EVER) 2)give an alternative that is equally fun or better yet, make it even more fun, and 3)_reinforce_ that...every single time at first until she gets reliable, then put it on a variable schedule. Make sure that it is rewardable. It can include food treats when she plays with this new toy instead of the rock. It can be more fun added to the activity...paired with it...make sure something really good goes along with the new behavior.

Short of all that, a muzzle.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Negative reinforcement may work, but it is cruel (imo) and trust-destroying.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I'm pretty sure you're not serious CB, you know I wouldn't hit my girls, and I don't even think it would work especially on Dolly. She's confident, playful and smart, but she's also sensitive and would end up afraid. I do hate the idea of a muzzle, it does have value for certain times but not everytime she steps outside to play. Clearly what I've been doing does nothing to make her think rocks are nasty, you can trade them for treats and Abbey will chase you to get it. I like the idea of making them taste bad, and limiting her yard space except when we are out with her. We have a lot of rock areas but I do think the cider vinegar ( lily suggested) in a spray bottle would be doable. I wonder if those pressurized cans to repel animals would work as a bad association, it doesn't hurt but startles, and I could do it from inside at an open window so she would associate it with me. Putting more toys out is a good point, we don't leave many out in the winter because they just get buried under the snow.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think the problem with rocks is that they are ubiquitous - if you treat every scrap of stone in the yard, there are more everywhere you walk, and any treatment would need renewing every time it rains. Could you focus not so much on the rocks as on the potential for swallowing them? Perhaps ask her to bring the rock to you and to swap it for a really good treat AND a quick game of tug AND the toy to play with? Or the treat and toy for leaving the rock? It means a lot of supervision at least at first, but with patience you should be able to build up to giving her the toy at the door as she goes out. One good thing is that, if she has played this game for months and only swallowed one rock, it is the game that is the attraction not eating them, unlike Manxcat's little dog.


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## UKpoodle (Jul 22, 2015)

Dolly has learned that picking up a rock = getting attention from Abbey/you. If the best way to stop a dogs unwanted behaviour is to not give them attention for it, then you need to be able to stop Abbey giving Dolly the attention/play time she has come to expect every time she picks up a rock. To do this I'd try keeping ABBEY on a long leash and as soon as Dolly picks up a rock pull Abbey away from her and towards you and ignore Dolly whilst praising Abbey and maybe giving her a treat. That way Abbey learns to ignore Dolly and come to you when Dolly picks up a rock and in turn Dolly will hopefully get bored and realise that picking up a rock actually takes the attention AWAY from her.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Caddy said:


> I'm pretty sure you're not serious CB, you know I wouldn't hit my girls, and I don't even think it would work especially on Dolly. She's confident, playful and smart, but she's also sensitive and would end up afraid. I do hate the idea of a muzzle, it does have value for certain times but not everytime she steps outside to play.


Well you know me... and that most times my tongue is firmly in cheek. But I see a lot of over-thinking in here. If an older dog is annoyed by bad behaviour from a pup, it will snap. The pup doesn't over-think it. But it recognizes action and response. And really... a targeted swat or a muzzle every time I went outside??? I'd take the swat if I were a dog.

Beside that, there's the classic story of a member here who's bitch would NOT stop going after her other bitch. Gentle correction after gentle correction did nothing to lessen this behaviour. 'Til her husband took the aggressive bitch aside and beat the hell out of her. That stopped the aggression. 

After his surgery, Tonka was sporting a 4"x6" Fentanyl patch on his ribs. It had to come off. I teased it 'til I could get a good grip on it and then ripped the rest off in one fell swoop. Tonka went a foot in the air! I wasn't surprised... I expected something like that.

But despite that indignity, he still pretends to love me.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

How about those vibrating training collars ? Not the electric shock ones, but the gentle ones. You could supervise the play and give a warning everytime she even looks at a rock.

And put a muzzle on her when you can't supervise, until she is fully trained. Maybe leave lots of balls outside so they can still play, but with balls instead.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Fjm you are so right, I can't treat all the rocks in our yard never mind everywhere else. It is just a game for sure, so it can't be fun or rewarding at all. That was interesting ukpoodle, if Abbey didn't chase her for a rock she'd find something more interesting. So true CB that putting a muzzle on her everytime she goes out isn't the answer for me, but neither is hitting her, I'd have to report myself, lol. I could do a vibrating collar though, good idea Dechi, it would be an immediate association with the rock. So just wondering, if she dropped or didn't even pick the rock up after vibration would it be appropriate to click and treat or no.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

When I got Cayenne, she was 15 months, she would pick up paper clips, pens, rubber bands, cig butts in the yard, anything she could get. So I trained her to drop it by, saying drop it, and had a fly swatter as well. It took less than a weeks, and she stopped, and now when I say drop it it could be a hot dog, treat or whatever and she drops what is in her mouth. In fact today if I tell them 3 times "no: I show them the fly swatter and "say what did I tell you", what ever they are doing they quite, I do not have to touch them with the swatter.

I definitely did not hit them hard, just touching them and saying no was enough. They love company and all start barking when company comes, (which is part to the companies fault) as they lean down and make over them. So now we stop barking when the door opens, and all I still do if necessary is say no and show it to them.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Caddy said:


> Fjm you are so right, I can't treat all the rocks in our yard never mind everywhere else. It is just a game for sure, so it can't be fun or rewarding at all. That was interesting ukpoodle, if Abbey didn't chase her for a rock she'd find something more interesting. So true CB that putting a muzzle on her everytime she goes out isn't the answer for me, but neither is hitting her, I'd have to report myself, lol. I could do a vibrating collar though, good idea Dechi, it would be an immediate association with the rock. So just wondering, if she dropped or didn't even pick the rock up after vibration would it be appropriate to click and treat or no.


Hum good question about the treats, I'll let the experts answer ! I would think you don't need to treat, but I might be wrong.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Your situation is a serious one--how old is Abbey? I've had puppies go through stages where they love to pick rocks up off the ground, and once they see it gets a rise out of me, the game is on. 

Before you resign yourself to a basket muzzle (and it may be necessary), I would try what I do with puppies to take the fun out of it. Have her on a long line or drag a leash, and when she picks up a rock, very calmly go over and remove it from her mouth as you say "Out" or "Leave it." I don't try to make removing the object unpleasant, but I don't try to make it pleasant either. Most dogs find it mildly aversive for you to have your fingers in their mouths. The point is to remove all pleasant associations with rocks, be they fun attention from you, a game of chase, or treats. You can also pair this with reinforcing picking up approved objects.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

glorybeecosta said:


> When I got Cayenne, she was 15 months, she would pick up paper clips, pens, rubber bands, cig butts in the yard, anything she could get. So I trained her to drop it by, saying drop it, and had a fly swatter as well. It took less than a weeks, and she stopped, and now when I say drop it it could be a hot dog, treat or whatever and she drops what is in her mouth. In fact today if I tell them 3 times "no: I show them the fly swatter and "say what did I tell you", what ever they are doing they quite, I do not have to touch them with the swatter.
> 
> I definitely did not hit them hard, just touching them and saying no was enough. They love company and all start barking when company comes, (which is part to the companies fault) as they lean down and make over them. So now we stop barking when the door opens, and all I still do if necessary is say no and show it to them.


Perfect! When you start young, all you really have to do is annoy them with something you can reach them with... or a loud noise... whatever you've got at hand. Anything that startles them even. They're much like us, not fond of being startled. You don't have to come anywhere close to hurting them. 

A practiced, ingrained habit tho... first you have to get their attention. Annoying them may or may not work. Maybe try something up the scale, like severe annoyance??? 

I've heard that dogs don't like the hiss of a can of compressed air releasing.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Correction.*

Young humans and dogs need to know that there are consequences for deliberate bad behavior. Some dogs and children respond so well to praise and reward that they never have to learn that there can be consequences to their behavior. When grown, children are at the mercy of the law in the land they live in. Not to acquaint them with the consequences of behavior that is not tolerated in their society will often see them involved with the criminal justice system where they feel they are unfairly treated since they have never before been held responsible for their actions. Our correctional institutions are full of young people who would never have been there if their parents had maintained a sensible level of discipline in the home and the school system had done likewise. At 18 y/o and above it is often too late for these unfortunate people to learn to comply with a society fast losing patience with youth crime.

Puppies too need guidelines and some will find reward in behaving badly. Counter surfing, too exuberant play in the home, excessive excitement in the presence of other dogs and people. All these can be corrected and should be so when the dog is young. Older dogs can learn but it takes longer and more patience on behalf of the trainer. As is always advocated positive reinforcement with treats accompanied by verbal encouragement is the best and easiest way. But some dogs and the most intelligent, as are poodles, will think out ways to get what they want against your wishes. Sometimes positive reinforcement simply can not be applied.

When a dog is mouthing and eating objects that could harm it, anything you say is giving attention to the dog even if it is loud and castigating. This attention will encourage the behavior. You will rarely get to the dog soon enough to use a fly swat, rolled up newspaper or switch to good effect. To be useful the correction need to be IMMEDIATE. Any delay and the dog may well not know why the correction has been given and intelligent poodles will be insulted by this.

In early training with Gracie I was extremely worried that she would eat rocks on the beach or poisonous puffer fish washed up. We collect rocks and any rock we handled became of value to grace. I am sure she swallowed quite a few. We would swap rocks for treats. This worked but began a new game "bring a rock to daddy and swap for a yummy treat."

Along with this, all feeding was at a feeding station. Food was put down and Grace asked to "sit and stay back" After a pause and eye contact, I point to the food and say "Gracie eat" To this day (now 4 y/o nearly) Grace will not eat unless told to do so. I can leave yummy things on the counter or the floor safely without her stealing. (When I began this I would pick up the yummy stuff after a while and place some of it in her bowl and order her to eat.) I have deliberately left her alone inside with accessible yummy stuff and come back to find it left untouched. (When I return she expects a reward)

I have recently had a similar problem with foreign objects being ingested. Rocks are not a problem now, since the method I will explain was used two years ago to prevent it. Grace has decided sticks are a high value chewing toy. She has lots of things to chew and this has not been a problem in the past. When she first started to pick up sticks, my wife Judy would admonish her and this she decided was a fine game. "Pick up a stick, wave it in front of mummy and tease her to distraction" new game "pick up a stick place it in front of daddy and see what happens" When she did this with the four children she has been playing with over the break they threw them for her to "fetch". Now she is eating them and barfing them up and pooing them out (fortunately).

I will use her training collar which has been gathering dust since it has not been used in at least 18 months. This collar is a "SHOCK COLLAR" shock horror! It has three settings (shock variable 1-100) (vibrate{like a cellphone} variable 1-100) and (Beep not variable)

I do not advocate the use of electric shock in training except for serious problems and with the supervision of experienced trainers.

When Gracie picks up a stick I will use the vibrate function accompanied by a "leave it" command. This is all that should be needed. When we had the problem with rocks I used the shock *once only* and followed with the vibrator which feels a lot like a mild electric shock. A couple of weeks of this will see the collar back gathering dust. She will come to me to have the collar fitted. When you put on the collar for the first time do not use it at all. (you do not want the dog to connect the collar with discomfort) Later use the beep function. (grace will recall with two beeps as she does with two whistles) Range over one mile. Later again when the dog picks up a stick/rock use the vibrator on full 100+ and a "leave it" command. This may well be all that is needed. If the dog ignores the vibrator use the shock once or twice on about 30% setting (for my collar). After this the dog will associate the vibrator with the shock and will comply with vibrate alone. (_*that rock bit me daddy!!!*_) 

I am expecting the "*positive reinforcement only*" crowd to flame me but after 70 years of dog training I can afford to ignore them knowing that they are wrong in this case. Where positive reinforcement can be used alone, it should be. Negative reinforcement should be avoided when possible and when it is used it should be accompanied with positive reinforcement for required behavior. The use of the two together is a powerful training aid and is used wherever a high level of compliance is required. This includes children. They are very little different when young.

Eric, the electric dog torturer.:yield:

torturer
noun: *torturer*; plural noun: *torturers*
a person who inflicts severe pain on someone as a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

When a dog is mouthing and eating objects that could harm it, anything you say is giving attention to the dog even if it is loud and castigating. This attention will encourage the behavior. You will rarely get to the dog soon enough to use a fly swat, rolled up newspaper or switch to good effect. To be useful the correction need to be IMMEDIATE. Any delay and the dog may well not know why the correction has been given and intelligent poodles will be insulted by this.

Oh I got to them quick enough with the swatter, now all I have to do is show it to them, not even use it when they won't stop barking or something I do not want them to do. I tell them No bark 2 times, before the person gets to the door and when the door is opened, if not stopped, I just pick it up, they go to their bed in the hallway. When I say ok, company they come out the meet the guest and they are fine, not slinking, or shy.

I have no problem with a shocker collar on the right sized dog, but would not use one on my 3, 5 and 6.5 dogs.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Eric, even Ian Dunbar would advocate using an aversive method like an e collar if it will extinguish a behavior that could lead to the dog dying if not controlled (like killing livestock and being shot by the farmer, eating something dangerous, etc). The important part of this process is to do this work as you described it. Make sure the collar is associated with nothing before using it. Use the minimum corrective signal needed to get a response. Time the correction well so that the dog associates it with the undesired behavior. That methodology is much more effective than chasing the dog with a rolled up newspaper or a switch or fly swatter since the dog only needs to be hit with one of those to decide to run away as soon as it sees you pick it up to make it an ineffective tool.

No flames from me. I have a set of collars much like yours. I have never needed the shock only the vibrate. It is important to note that you can use the tone much the way you use a clicker, whistle or verbal marker as a signal of a positive response that bridges to another positive reinforcer.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Yes, a remote collar could be used like a reverse clicker. Touch the rock, and pow! Instant karma. And since the dog don't won't realize the correction came from you, she'll run to you for protection. 

But, I think loading the play space with YES objects is another strategy. The more yes you give a dog, the more likely they are to make the right choice. A large box filled with squeaky toys would, hopefully, be more attractive and fun to play with than rocks.
I'm not talking about six squeaky toys. I'm talking about 200 squeaky toys in a plastic bin. Yes, you'll have to collect 200 squeaky toys after every play session, but it's good exercise. Bend and stretch, and reach and lift. Bend and stretch, and reach and lift. Tighten your glutes, good. Bend and stretch, and reach and lift. Focus on your core. Bend and stretch, and reach and lift.

The more effort I put into yes, the more my dogs know what I want from them. You need to correct bad choices, obviously, but the emphasis should be on loading the environment so good choices become more likely. 

Flavoring as many rocks as possible with my magical combo spray of water, dish soap, and sriracha sauce might help her generalize that rocks taste horrible. I have yet to have a pet that found that combo attractive. One lick and the mere smell of it is enough to deter. And since dogs noses can detect 2,000 year old cadaver scent, and smell a teaspoon of sugar in two Olympic sized swimming pools, the rain will not wash this smell away. Your dog will smell it forever. What I like about this combo over Bitter Apple is I've had pets that like the taste of Bitter Apple, and I've had dogs that like hot sauce. No one likes the taste of soap and hot sauce. You could put it in a garden pest sprayer, and go to town spraying rocks. 

I hope you are able to sort this out. Gentle hugs.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Click-N-Treat since this is a complicated situation the solution won't be simple. After all there is no way to never see a rock again, I think the solution is multifaceted. A combination of making rocks unattractive along with providing tons of alternatives that are better and fun is at the heart of fixing this. Caddy I would still teach your girls to accept basket muzzles too, even if just for an emergency tool as I regard my muzzles.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

A combo approach is absolutely required. You can't make every rock unattractive. This is a hard one. And the muzzle might be the safest choice.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I agree with Eric (and Countryboy to some degree)..... there are many behaviours that respond well to positive reinforcement but sometimes you have to step it up a notch, especially if the behavior is a dangerous one that could potentially hurt your dog. Using an e collar might just be the quicker an easier solution to the problem, and often it just takes using it on the vibration mode once or twice to get the response you want. If not stepping it up to the lowest setting of shock (just enough to get their attention) is not going to hurt your dog....and certainly is nothing compared to having to have an emergency vet visit for surgery. You want your dog to associate picking up rocks with an unpleasant experience (vibration or light shock, whatever works). 
Much easier and more effective than constantly spraying all of the rocks on your property with something foul tasting, or having to resort to muzzling your dog constantly...... IMO.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Just catching up on here this morning, there has been a lot of great advice and ideas bounced back and forth. This is serious and life threatening, and I NEVER want surgery again to extract a rock. We use positive methods training the girls but that is not going to work this time. I'm going to read Eric's method over and over to make sure the vibration collar is used correct and is effective. Believe me, this surgery has been hard on Dolly and could have been way worse.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

If this was my dog, I'd have that collar Eric suggested in a New York minute and read carefully through the instructions. As you point out, this is a serious and potentially life threatening bad behavior (with rocks everywhere in her environment tempting her) that you need to extinguish. 

If you do it, please post back about your experience.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

In thinking more about this what you need to try for is a training event that mimics an important type of experiential learning found in nature. Specifically I am thinking about the learning to avoid poisonous insects that occurs for example when a bird eats a poisonous butterfly such as a Monarch. Monarchs eat milkweed as caterpillars and build up and retain an alkaloid that among other things causes severe nausea and vomiting when eaten by a bird or other animal. Since the Monarch is bright orange and black and the vomiting is almost instantaneous, the bird in one trial learns that eating orange and black butterflies is a very bad thing to do and they will studiously avoid doing so in the future. Here a well timed remote control correction of a decent vibration or mild shock from the collar could be sufficient to turn Dolly off from rocks. I think the correction has to come right when she picks the rock up.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> In thinking more about this what you need to try for is a training event that mimics an important type of experiential learning found in nature. Specifically I am thinking about the learning to avoid poisonous insects that occurs for example when a bird eats a poisonous butterfly such as a Monarch. Monarchs eat milkweed as caterpillars and build up and retain an alkaloid that among other things causes severe nausea and vomiting when eaten by a bird or other animal. Since the Monarch is bright orange and black and the vomiting is almost instantaneous, the bird in one trial learns that eating orange and black butterflies is a very bad thing to do and they will studiously avoid doing so in the future. Here a well timed remote control correction of a decent vibration or mild shock from the collar could be sufficient to turn Dolly off from rocks. I think the correction has to come right when she picks the rock up.


From experience the correction needs to come _*IMMEDIATELY*_ the rock is touched. "*Daddy the rock bit me!!!*" Most important!! fit the collar and do not use it at all for at least 2 days. The dog must not associate the collar with correction or it will refuse the collar and try to remove it. The association the dog must make is "The rock did it" "I don't like rocks anymore" Because Gracie's beach is 6 miles long and she has close friends that can be a mile away I have allowed her to "go see" them. The collar I use has a long range and I can recall her with the "Beep Beep" Two beeps means recall for her. Two whistles are a standard recall for gun dog training that she knows well. The collar was used also to train her to not chase beach birds. ie. "Daddy that swan bit me" "I don't like swans daddy"
I waited until she was very close to the poor swan and zapped her. Once only. now swans are safe. There are hooded plovers breeding (nest on ground) where she plays fetch. They are so used to her, they will not take off when she runs past a few feet from them. Their offspring learn the same low threat level. Other plovers show fear and hers show fear at other dogs. I am now teaching her to chase crows and curawongs away from her large yard. They eat the eggs and nestlings of other birds and we have a large resident small bird population. This is a new and challenging step for her. Some birds daddy says "chase" and others "no chase" At first she desisted from chasing except when I gave the order. Now she is leaning to differentiate between species. Guess I'm just a megalomaniac who rules my roost.
Eric.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Eric yes, exactly it has to be the rock bit me, not the collar did something to me.

When I teach people how to use aversive tools like pinch or e collars I always tell them put the collar on the dog everyday for two weeks and don't use it for anything. Give treats when you put it on to make sure there is no negative association for the dog between the tool and anything corrective. In the meantime get a brightly colored nylon buckle collar and put it in a plastic sealable bag with either some broken open fish oil capsules or rub it down with mink oil and get that collar good and smelly. The day you first hook your pinch collar to the leash or turn on the remote control for the e collar put on the smelly collar. Now the dog is thinking what's up with this bright colored smelly thing on my neck. Then when they feel the correction from the other tool they think it is the stinky collar that did it. This gives you a way to not have to use the pinch or the e collar down the road. That tip came to me straight from the great Ian Dunbar himself!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I'm stunned that some in PF are actually allowing that e-collars have a use in training. They usually evince nothing but hysteria. 

Good to see the forum moving forward.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Lily I think that might be a good idea to use a stink collar, we plan to start putting the vibration/shock collar on her soon so it becomes just a collar to her. This is hard for me, but I feel drastic measures are necessary for her sake. Dolly is such a good girl, sweet, gentle and listen so well. I feel so bad and guilty for not getting the message across right the first time, when I said drop it or leave it she did, and then got a treat or a good old belly rub. CB, I'm quite sure some will be against my using the collar, but I do appreciate all suggestions. I'll do everything in my power to prevent a repeat, hopefully with help from pf'ers I'll do it right.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Caddy said:


> Lily I think that might be a good idea to use a stink collar, we plan to start putting the vibration/shock collar on her soon so it becomes just a collar to her. This is hard for me, but I feel drastic measures are necessary for her sake. Dolly is such a good girl, sweet, gentle and listen so well. I feel so bad and guilty for not getting the message across right the first time, when I said drop it or leave it she did, and then got a treat or a good old belly rub. CB, I'm quite sure some will be against my using the collar, but I do appreciate all suggestions. I'll do everything in my power to prevent a repeat, hopefully with help from pf'ers I'll do it right.


Do not feel bad! This sort of thing has happened to many otherwise well trained dogs. Many dogs are fixated on balls and if they find a ball small enough will swallow them. One had a dozen golf balls removed. Grace became fixated on rocks because we collected them. She saw them as of value. They were cold and comfortable in her mouth and I'm sure she swallowed some. Despite being corrected with the E collar she will still pick up a rock occasionally and needs to be told to "Leave it". Being intelligent, she has worked out "only some rocks bite" With her current fixation on sticks, I will reinforce her anti rock training and live with the hope she will not ingest anything that will harm her. Luck has a part to play and I hope yours is good.
Eric.


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