# Dual registering a CKC dog???



## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

The more UKC-savvy folks can weigh in, but I don't think they will register a dog UKC who isn't registered AKC. 

Why wasn't her dam registered AKC?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Here are some rules I found at their website. I don't think they recognize CKC

https://www.ukcdogs.com/single-registration-requirements


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

No UKC will not recognize a CKC registration. That registration (CKC, continental) means almost nothing other than someone having filled out paperwork and sent a fee. It isn't even sufficient to get a number that would allow competition in performance events. the alternative choices to get a meaningful registration would be to seek a PAL or other registration through AKC that would let the dog do obedience and the like. One could also register separately for CPE agility and the like.


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## Cmm627 (Jan 23, 2016)

*what about the other CKC?*

Is it possible to dual register a CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) pup that is brought to the US as an AKC or UKC? I believe I saw that both parents need to be AKC to register the pup as AKC but wanted to double check.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Cmm627 said:


> Is it possible to dual register a CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) pup that is brought to the US as an AKC or UKC? I believe I saw that both parents need to be AKC to register the pup as AKC but wanted to double check.


You can register a Canadian Kennel Club pup AKC if the CKC registration is full registration (no non-breeding agreement). You need to submit a form with the registered (CKC) names and numbers of the sire and dam and photographs of the pup to prove it looks like a poodle. And a check, of course! 

You cannot registered a CKC pup AKC if the CKC registration is limited/non-breeding.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Verve said:


> You can register a Canadian Kennel Club pup AKC if the CKC registration is full registration (no non-breeding agreement). You need to submit a form with the registered (CKC) names and numbers of the sire and dam and photographs of the pup to prove it looks like a poodle. And a check, of course!
> 
> You cannot registered a CKC pup AKC if the CKC registration is limited/non-breeding.



But I think a Canadian KC pup on a limited registration would be able to get an AKC registration through PAL or the Companion Dog program if the person wanted to do obedience or agility in that case.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Correct, but it would be PAL, not limited registration, and the owner would have to provide proof of spay/neuter. 

I've never understood why CKC and AKC don't reciprocate the other's limited registration. But it's better than a registry giving more rights than the original registry. I understand that UKC will grant full registration even if an owner only has limited AKC, and that sucks. 



lily cd re said:


> But I think a Canadian KC pup on a limited registration would be able to get an AKC registration through PAL or the Companion Dog program if the person wanted to do obedience or agility in that case.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Thanks for responding everyone  ! I am curious; if you had five generations back a CKC ancestor but from then only bred to AKC does that ever get approved to be registered AKC ? I know that they allowed those Dalmatians that had been bred to a pointer to be registered AKC after 15 generations. Was that only because it was addressing a serious health problem? But then again that was a completely different breed whereas a CKC Poodle is still a Poodle.

I've also been wondering; if the top breeders only use other top breeders' dogs then don't they run into genetic bottlenecks? Is importing the typical response?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

There have been a number of genetic bottlenecks in standard poodles, but these days people are far more aware, and genetic testing is available to identify dogs that can bring heterogeneity back into a breeding line. And I don't think top breeders necessarily only use other top breeders' dogs - in the UK at least they will assess practically every dog they meet, and be very interested in the background and pedigree of any outstanding animals. It's just that those dogs are far, far more likely to be bred by people who have dedicated years to understanding the breed, developing their lines, and focussing on the quality of the dogs they breed. But it does happen - a very reputable show breeder was interested in having a puppy from Sophy and her own stud. Sophy carries good lines, shows her Caswell ancestry clearly, and her type and pedigree complemented the breeder's line well.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

See the UC Davis VGL web site for an explanation of genetic diversity testing for standard poodles. My co-own spoo had this test. It was not the most expensive of the health testing that his breeder requires, but is mandatory for her breeding dogs as she seeks to improve the breed.

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog/GeneticDiversityInStandardPoodles.php


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

fjm said:


> There have been a number of genetic bottlenecks in standard poodles, but these days people are far more aware, and genetic testing is available to identify dogs that can bring heterogeneity back into a breeding line. And I don't think top breeders necessarily only use other top breeders' dogs - in the UK at least they will assess practically every dog they meet, and be very interested in the background and pedigree of any outstanding animals. It's just that those dogs are far, far more likely to be bred by people who have dedicated years to understanding the breed, developing their lines, and focussing on the quality of the dogs they breed. But it does happen - a very reputable show breeder was interested in having a puppy from Sophy and her own stud. Sophy carries good lines, shows her Caswell ancestry clearly, and her type and pedigree complemented the breeder's line well.



That's really neat  . I take it Sophy is your dog. Did you meet that breeder at a dog show? Do you know how common it is for dogs that are not from CH's to go on to get theirs? It seems confusing to me because on one hand people sound like their dog gets their CH in one weekend but yet surely it's not an easy thing to do? Or IS it if your dog doesn't have any major conformation issues?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

No, I never really got into showing - it is rather different here in the UK, and much, much more difficult to get a championship than in the States. I met Deb at a seminar about canine conformation, and then took a number of classes with her, including the Ring Craft one I have mentioned before. Sophy is my papillon - it is pretty unusual for a well known breeder to suggest outcrossing their line like that, but it came after she had known both Sophy and me for over a year, and had evaluated her as a show judge would several times. There have, of course, been any number of people suggesting doodle designer mixes over the years, but that tends to happen when you have a poodle!


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

HeritageHills said:


> That's really neat  . I take it Sophy is your dog. Did you meet that breeder at a dog show? Do you know how common it is for dogs that are not from CH's to go on to get theirs? It seems confusing to me because on one hand people sound like their dog gets their CH in one weekend but yet surely it's not an easy thing to do? Or IS it if your dog doesn't have any major conformation issues?


Many people are able to get a UKC CH in one weekend. It takes longer than that, and usually MUCH longer, to get an AKC CH. 

In AKC, most standard poodles who get their AKC CH have at least one parent who is also an AKC CH.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Verve said:


> Many people are able to get a UKC CH in one weekend. It takes longer than that, and usually MUCH longer, to get an AKC CH.
> 
> In AKC, most standard poodles who get their AKC CH have at least one parent who is also an AKC CH.



Do you think that is because AKC is that much more exacting or because of it is more important to be "well connected" so to speak. I've read a little bit about the UKC vs AKC showing and have to say that I don't like the idea that you almost have to fake it (with those fake hair additions, hairspray, dye, etc..) to do well with AKC. Idk sometimes a little knowledge is a "dangerous" thing, lol. At least there is a place to ask a million questions  .


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

HeritageHills said:


> Do you think that is because AKC is that much more exacting or because of it is more important to be "well connected" so to speak. I've read a little bit about the UKC vs AKC showing and have to say that I don't like the idea that you almost have to fake it (with those fake hair additions, hairspray, dye, etc..) to do well with AKC. Idk sometimes a little knowledge is a "dangerous" thing, lol. At least there is a place to ask a million questions  .


To do well in AKC you have to have a credible dog who is credibly presented. In standards at least you will generally be competing against professional handlers who WILL present their dogs credibly. So to win as an owner-handler, you will need to also need to do at least a competent job of grooming and handling. That does not necessarily mean dying and wiggies, but it does mean 
hairspray. 

There are many reasons why a particular dog might win on a particular day, and sometimes politics plays a role. But in my observation, quality matters much more than politics on average, and high quality, well-presented dogs finish faster, and a poor quality dog may never finish. Those who complain the most about politics are usually losing for quality-related reasons.


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## Rocpoodle (Jul 15, 2017)

Verve said:


> Correct, but it would be PAL, not limited registration, and the owner would have to provide proof of spay/neuter.
> 
> I've never understood why CKC and AKC don't reciprocate the other's limited registration. But it's better than a registry giving more rights than the original registry. I understand that UKC will grant full registration even if an owner only has limited AKC, and that sucks.


I wasn't aware that a limited registration CKC pup could not be limited registration AKC. My pup will be coming from Canada and I plan to get involved in performance events. I understand that one can compete in performance events with PAL, but what is the actual difference between PAL and limited registration? Can a PAL dog have a registered name?


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Rocpoodle said:


> I wasn't aware that a limited registration CKC pup could not be limited registration AKC. My pup will be coming from Canada and I plan to get involved in performance events. I understand that one can compete in performance events with PAL, but what is the actual difference between PAL and limited registration? Can a PAL dog have a registered name?


It looks like they can have a "registered" name. Here's the link to the form. I think the catch is that they have to be spayed/neutered. That could be an issue if you want to compete before spaying/neutering. 

http://images.akc.org/pdf/ADPAL1.pdf


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

HeritageHills said:


> Do you think that is because AKC is that much more exacting or because of it is more important to be "well connected" so to speak. I've read a little bit about the UKC vs AKC showing and have to say that I don't like the idea that you almost have to fake it (with those fake hair additions, hairspray, dye, etc..) to do well with AKC. Idk sometimes a little knowledge is a "dangerous" thing, lol. At least there is a place to ask a million questions  .


You don't have to "fake it" to do well in AKC. You simply have to have a quality dog and they need to be well presented.

It takes longer to get an AKC Championship and it means more to have an AKC Championship because the level of quality required to attain a Championship is much higher, there is more competition, and it therefore requires more time and effort and...quality.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Rocpoodle you shouldn't have any problem getting a PAL registration and have a registered name you like. You should have no problem with your planned sports either since you will probably neuter or spay before you are ready to compete.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

UKC looks fun and relaxed, and a good way to get started in showing. However, I have seen plenty of UKC champion dogs that were horrible quality and would be laughed out of an AKC ring.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

UKC is clearly easier (can I say HAIR loud enough?) but is no cake walk. Judges have their preferences, which can be learned from experienced handlers. It wasn't until my 3rd (and last) time in front of a particular judge that I was told he really likes square dogs, don't set the rear legs too far back when stacking. My spoo won and lost in front of the same judge, different shows. Dogs change. Handling changes. Subjectivity is an element, as it is in human competitions--gymnastics, anyone? Or figure skating? 

The only time that I was really frustrated was when two separate judges over a show weekend told me that it is difficult to compare spoos with different trims. Seems that should be part of the job description.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Verve said:


> HeritageHills said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think that is because AKC is that much more exacting or because of it is more important to be "well connected" so to speak. I've read a little bit about the UKC vs AKC showing and have to say that I don't like the idea that you almost have to fake it (with those fake hair additions, hairspray, dye, etc..) to do well with AKC. Idk sometimes a little knowledge is a "dangerous" thing, lol. At least there is a place to ask a million questions
> ...



Yeah, if you are an owner-handler I would imagine you would have to have a very good dog with you. Unless, of course, you were very experienced yourself. If I'm remembering correctly UKC only allows owner-handlers. I do like that idea, but I'm sure there are many reasons why it might not be the best way all the time.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

scooterscout99 said:


> UKC is clearly easier (can I say HAIR loud enough?).....
> The only time that I was really frustrated was when two separate judges over a show weekend told me that it is difficult to compare spoos with different trims. Seems that should be part of the job description.


Lol, yes I would think so too; on both accounts.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

zooeysmom said:


> UKC looks fun and relaxed, and a good way to get started in showing. However, I have seen plenty of UKC champion dogs that were horrible quality and would be laughed out of an AKC ring.


Hopefully they can increase their standards for quality but leave the parts that make it more relaxed(hair styles, colors allowed, owner handlers , etc...).


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