# BayRock Poodles



## kcp1227 (Jan 25, 2013)

Have you done a forum search on this breeder? I know there's at least one that will give you some info on them. Search Bayrock or Barefoot (they used to go by that name). 


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## BCPD199 (Dec 22, 2013)

kcp1227 said:


> Have you done a forum search on this breeder? I know there's at least one that will give you some info on them. Search Bayrock or Barefoot (they used to go by that name).


Thanks. I did find one forum that basically said the same thing about the early breeding. I can't believe they would lie about the dam's age though. Is it really that bad to breed the female that early? And should they be breeding a female at all before the OFA tests are done? It's a real shame because the puppy is stunning.

I didn't realize they went by another name at one time. I'll look into that.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Well yes if they haven't either bothered to do prelims. The Dam is still mentally & physically maturing. Why not wait another 6 months to breed if not a other year. Why cut the corners, why lie if you have nothing to hide. Look at Karbit Poodles they import their Moyen/Klein's so the true size. Many Americans cut corners & think that mixing the Standard X Mini they get a Moyen/Klein.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I did not know that Left Calves Perths disease could be "cleared by parentage"


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## BCPD199 (Dec 22, 2013)

3dogs said:


> Well yes if they haven't either bothered to do prelims. The Dam is still mentally & physically maturing. Why not wait another 6 months to breed if not a other year. Why cut the corners, why lie if you have nothing to hide. Look at Karbit Poodles they import their Moyen/Klein's so the true size. Many Americans cut corners & think that mixing the Standard X Mini they get a Moyen/Klein.


I spoke to Karin early today. Very helpful, unfortunately, her red litter is all spoken for. Is there anybody else with her background you would/could recommend?


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## 12489 (Apr 2, 2013)

You also want to make sure any breeder does not use A/I to get the moyen size, not breeding a miniature to a small standard, but actually breeding moyen to moyen. . It's sad there aren't more moyen breeders in the US. 

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## BCPD199 (Dec 22, 2013)

Myfluffyjoia said:


> You also want to make sure any breeder does not use A/I to get the moyen size, not breeding a miniature to a small standard, but actually breeding moyen to moyen. . It's sad there aren't more moyen breeders in the US.


You're quite right. Much of my research seems to come up with exactly what you said. Large mini's being bred to small standards.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

i'm sending you a PM regarding this thread-


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Barefoot/Bayrock definitely breeds dogs at an age that most reputable breeders would find unacceptable. When I was looking for a puppy, she had a dog named Tigre that whelped a litter at only 15 months (i.e., was bred at 13 months!!!). Tigre was born on 1/20/2010 and this litter was whelped on 4/19/2011. Here’s the poodlepedigree page for this dog (take a look at the offspring page and also at the change history page): Pedigree: Hidden Meadows Tigre' Lily


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

I remember seeing a picture of one of her red studs and he was definitely a Mini Standard cross. He had the tiniest little legs, and a big huge Standard body.


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## BCPD199 (Dec 22, 2013)

peppersb said:


> Barefoot/Bayrock definitely breeds dogs at an age that most reputable breeders would find unacceptable. When I was looking for a puppy, she had a dog named Tigre that whelped a litter at only 15 months (i.e., was bred at 13 months!!!). Tigre was born on 1/20/2010 and this litter was whelped on 4/19/2011. Here’s the poodlepedigree page for this dog (take a look at the offspring page and also at the change history page): Pedigree: Hidden Meadows Tigre' Lily


Maybe it's my past career in law enforcement; but, that's reeks of a cover up! I know the litter I was looking at the dam was only 16 months old when she gave birth. And then to lie to me and tell me she's two, I don't get it.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

It must be Reba that is that Dam in question. Here link for Poodle Pedigree & health link do not work. Found Reba's pedigree by clicking on the puppy picture & Reba's pedigree comes up but of course no birth date or health clearances on hers. All the other dogs have their info posted, makes one wonder.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Great that you talked with Karen at Karbit. If you like her breeding then I would get on a wait list. You might also ask for recommendations of other breeders.

I would contact I think it is "Outwest" on this forum, with Bonnie a Small Standard. I believe someone in her family has a Moyen.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

So I looked up on the OFA website about Legg Calve-Perthes disease because I did not think it was "cleared by parentage" as stated a few times under the "Girls" page of Bay rock Poodles.

It is NOT "cleared by parentage". One needs to send in X-rays with the proper positioning & I'd on the X-rays & each radiograph is evaluated by a Specialist. Interesting to note that if you get an OFA # for Hips then you are automatically clear of LCP disease. This though is NOY, NOT, NOT CLEARED BY PARENTAGE as stated on their website.


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## BCPD199 (Dec 22, 2013)

3dogs said:


> It must be Reba that is that Dam in question. Here link for Poodle Pedigree & health link do not work. Found Reba's pedigree by clicking on the puppy picture & Reba's pedigree comes up but of course no birth date or health clearances on hers. All the other dogs have their info posted, makes one wonder.


It is Reba and with a little bit of snooping around on poodlepedigree.com, I found the birthdate for her. It's listed as 5/16/12. Her pups were born on 9/8/13, making her just under 16 months old. In reference to her missing OFA report, she responded in an e-mail "I had an agreement not to x-ray her before she got her two puppies as payment."


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## 12489 (Apr 2, 2013)

I would agree, besides how can you register a moyen when they aren't even recognized by the AKC. It's like calling a poodle a Merle. The moyen exists but isn't a true moyen unless bred together. 

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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

BCPD199 said:


> It is Reba and with a little bit of snooping around on poodlepedigree.com, I found the birthdate for her. It's listed as 5/16/12. Her pups were born on 9/8/13, making her just under 16 months old. In reference to her missing OFA report, she responded in an e-mail "I had an agreement not to x-ray her before she got her two puppies as payment."


What?!!!???? How much sense does that make? So it is OK to breed the dog, but not to do the health testing??? Really?


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## BCPD199 (Dec 22, 2013)

3dogs said:


> So I looked up on the OFA website about Legg Calve-Perthes disease because I did not think it was "cleared by parentage" as stated a few times under the "Girls" page of Bay rock Poodles.
> 
> It is NOT "cleared by parentage". One needs to send in X-rays with the proper positioning & I'd on the X-rays & each radiograph is evaluated by a Specialist. Interesting to note that if you get an OFA # for Hips then you are automatically clear of LCP disease. This though is NOY, NOT, NOT CLEARED BY PARENTAGE as stated on their website.


Here's a response I got from Cathie of adonai red poodles when I asked about the OFA and Cerf's on the parents of her puppies she had for sale: "I do not re run DNA tests on pups that are descended from Clear Parents."

I'm new to this, am I wrong thinking that the dogs should be cleared/tested before breeding?


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I only know Toys so the only "clear by parentage" test is a genetic DNA test for PRA/PRcd. Other wise the CERF/OFA Eye exam is a yearly test & the offspring cannot be cleared by parentage. As well as Luxating Patellas the parents are tested but the offspring are not cleared.

Toy Poodles if both parents are Normal then the offspring are "cleared"

I hope the Standard breeders will chime in as to what tests are " cleared by parentage".


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

The only test where "clear by parentage" would apply are diseases that are caused by a single recessive gene that has been identified, and where a DNA test that can identify which dogs are affected, carriers or clear. For standard poodles, those diseases are neonatal encephalitis and von Windebrand's disease. For these diseases, if two parents are tested clear, you can be 100% certain that all of the puppies will be clear. So the offspring of two parents that had been tested could be called "clear by parentage." But you have to make sure that the parents actually were tested. To be sure that a dog (or his/her parents) has tested clear, you should either see a listing on offa.org or view the certificate yourself. 

The fact that these diseases are caused by a _recessive_ gene means that a puppy needs to inherit two of these bad recessive genes to get the disease (one from each parent). So if you know that one parent has tested clear, then you know that none of the puppies will get the disease. The worst that can happen is that a puppy will be a carrier.

It would be totally reasonable for Cathie to not run DNA tests for neonatal encephalitis and von Windebrand's disease on any dog that came from 2 parents that had both tested clear.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Cathie Warren got a female puppy from me- when her name was Katrina Schumacher and her kennel name was Dayspring- Arreau Besame Mucho Dayspring and bred her before she was two and the ONLY test she did prior to breeding her was hips. Ask me how impressed I am...From what I heard, she bred her two times in rather quick succession, then sold her. Before she was Cathie Warren and Katrina Schumacher her name was Kathy Soles. Isn't that a little peculiar?

Degenerative Myelopathy can also be clear by parentage.

And before I would believe anyone that the parents are clear of any of the DNA tests, I would want to see copies of the lab paperwork or an OFA certificate. Not every breeder posts their results on the OFA web site, but i would not take them at their word that the dogs are clear. They need to prove it!


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## BCPD199 (Dec 22, 2013)

Arreau, you've been a big help. As stated earlier, I'm new to this. And the response I've gotten from BayRock and Adonai when I asked about OFA and CERF's was snippy at best, almost as if I was prying into their personal family life. I'm not wrong then asking about whether or not the parents to a litter have been tested, correct? Because those two have certainly made me feel that way.

I know when I've been on your site and Karbit's site, I don't even have to ask, you both have OFA report numbers or links to the OFA tests. I guess that's what separates reputable breeders from the "not-so" reputable breeders.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

You are totally right to question as much as you like about parent, grandparent etc... health testing. Some breeders are becoming sneaky & not truthful about the ACTUAL testing. If the paperwork has not been submitted to OFA you have to see it in person. Like me I just have nog gotten around to submitting to OFA but have my Toy Health Testing done. Also Genetic & other health testing IS NOT the same as I have taken my dog to the vet & mh dogs are healthy. After you put down a non refundable deposit & then get the run around only to finally found out you have been lied too & now they have your money & you have to get one of their dogs is not the time to complain & figure things out.

For a wake up call read Rip Off Report. I am surprised at how many scammers, fraud, lying people there are.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

And, really, those of us truly investing, don't sweat the cost of a swab for NE, VWD, DM "proof". (Otherwise to have Clear with Parentage recorded - DNA proof is required).

There is a cost savings choosing one lab over another -one posts to OFA one doesn't....the tests are the same, and offer conclusive proof.

Best Wishes to you.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## kcp1227 (Jan 25, 2013)

My thoughts are, if a breeder is getting upset about you asking for proof of health testing, run. Your breeder should be happy to produce that info, not side stepping around it. 


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

They should not only be happy to furnish you with copies of certificates, they should be proud to! Nothing feels better to a breeder than getting the testing done and back with good results. They cost a ton of money to do and post- why not share them with the people who matter?


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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

I do not know the ins and out of breeding or health testing, but I do know this, if a breeder would lie to me about anything, I simply would not deal with them. Good luck in finding the dog you are looking for.


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## BCPD199 (Dec 22, 2013)

Well, here is the reply I received from Cathie Warren when I asked "Has OFA and CERF testing been done on the parents? Are they AKC registered?"

To answer your question about health testing...Testing is so very **Important** I am blessed to have Clear Lines... I am not having to test for carriers... and if you notice on my Website, the link that goes to the pedigree and lineage of my New Russian import that his Parent's testing is listed there...so Tazzar is Normal or Clear for all DNA tests thought important in Europe..(there is no link that I can find)
...now most Companion Pup owners are not into testing, but if they were into spending the money, and interested in collecting DNA samples to send off... their pup's test results would be clear... 

She never did answer whether or not the parents were even AKC registered.


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## 12489 (Apr 2, 2013)

Wow does this "breeder" also sell used cars? To think people would still buy from this mess-of-suck breeder. SMH. 

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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I would avoid that breeder, but what she says is true. If all four Grandparents have tested clear there is no reason to test any of their progeny FOR THE TESTS THAT ARE DNA RELATED. The other tests (cerf, hips, thyroid, etc) you still need to test.


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## BCPD199 (Dec 22, 2013)

outwest said:


> I would avoid that breeder, but what she says is true. If all four Grandparents have tested clear there is no reason to test any of their progeny FOR THE TESTS THAT ARE DNA RELATED. The other tests (cerf, hips, thyroid, etc) you still need to test.


Thanks, that's what I thought. That was her answer to my specific question regarding whether the parents hips and eyes were tested.

So if I understand this correctly hips and eyes should be checked on breeding parents? These items can't be clear by parentage, correct?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

BCPD199 said:


> So if I understand this correctly hips and eyes should be checked on breeding parents? These items can't be clear by parentage, correct?


Correct.


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## BCPD199 (Dec 22, 2013)

I just had a breeder tell me today that the bitch of her litter didn't need the eyes tested because she was clear by parentage.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

OMG! These people will say anything! I hope it is out of ignorance.

DNA tests are the only thing that can be clear by parentage- von willebrand, degenerative myelopathy and neonatal encephalopathy. These are done once and the dog is either clear, carrier or affected.

Hips, patellas and elbows are done once in a lifetime,as is dentition.

Eyes are to be done annually on a breeding dog, and S/A and thyroid are to be done each year a dog is bred.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

For Toys & Minis EYE PRA/PRcd is a DNA Test & YES the offspring can be "clear by parentage" if parents have been tested. My Echo is "clear by parentage" as well as Lotis for this particular test. They still need their yearly CERF/OFA done though.


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## Sunbeam (May 8, 2014)

Arreau,
I have sent you a pm and am new to the forum so I don't know what I'm doing yet. Could you let me know if you received it?


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