# Could my mini be a small Standard? (or a Klein?)



## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Hello!

Quick question for you experts. I have a 5 months old mini poodle and I took him to the groomer for the first time. They were adamant that he is no mini poodle (and said that too when I booked the apt). I was very surprised, said I saw the mom who most definitely was a mini, and also that he had almost reached his adult size (around 6 months right?). They told me he's already bigger than a mini and has huge paws and will grow until he's almost 2.
I measured him at home and he is already 15 inches at the shoulder. He weighs about 12lbs and is VERY SKINNY (we are working on that). My other mini was a fat guy at 15. 15lbs would look great on this one.
I must agree that when I met him I thought his face looked different than my other minis, eyes set more narrow, just different. And even at 3 months his feet were HUGE, way bigger than my adult mini. The groomer said that too. So, I am VERY curious to have your feedback, although I understand it's not a science. And frankly, it doesnt matter to me either way. I would LOVE if he were bigger, it would be a nice surprise. I love him to bits anyway. But I imagine that if he is 15in at 5.5months, he is technically already a standard? Thanks in advance for the input. A very curious mama!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Read and study through this. This is the AKC written standard for poodles: What were his parents' registered as? Or are they?

https://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/Poodle.pdf


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Read and study through this. This is the AKC written standard for poodles: What were his parents' registered as? Or are they?
> 
> https://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/Poodle.pdf


Thank you for the response and link. His parents come from Eriand Poodles, a very reputable breeder. Both parents are minis, genetically tested. I'm a bit perplexed.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Would love to see a photo!


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Here he is, ungroomed vs groomed!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Cassiope said:


> Thank you for the response and link. His parents come from Eriand Poodles, a very reputable breeder. Both parents are minis, genetically tested. I'm a bit perplexed.


 Have you told Eriand how big he is? Some miniatures certainly do go oversize. In this past year I have noticed that quite a few of the minis being shown are at least 15 inches and are quite sturdy. That's why I quit showing my mini - she is 14 inches but only 11 lbs, quite dainty. She looked like a toy next to the others being shown.

Whenever the dogs being shown - no matter what breed - are big, many are actually oversize. He is very handsome - I suspect he is just bigger than average. So, yes, he is now considered a standard according to the breed standard, but a knowledgeable poodle person would just say that he is an oversize mini.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Sounds like he could grow to be an oversized mini. He is adorable!


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

If your dog is from mini parents, and is bigger than the AKC standard states, then he still is a mini, but an oversized one. It happens very often.

Both my toy poodles are over 10 inches, which makes them oversized toys, not miniatures. You will need to educate your groomer...


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

He's gorgeous! And (no offense to my spoo Peggy) such a lovely size! Wow. I really love him.

For comparison, Peggy is 36.8 lbs at 26 weeks, and 19 inches.


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## Nahama (Aug 4, 2019)

Your guy is beautiful! Our brown mini poodle puppy Kiki is huge and doesn't look anything like our dainty 9 lb silver beige mini poodle Willow. Kiki's dad (American and Canadian champion) is an oversize mini/moyen size - 24 lbs, with a stocky build, and Kiki, who also has a stocky build, will most likely be an oversize mini/moyen as well. Her mom (also a champion) is a slighter build. Kiki has a big nose and big paws. She was the firstborn in her litter, and at 16 weeks she probably already weighs about 14 lbs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

He is lovely, and is just a nice oversized mini. My pup is currently around 14" and 16 lbs! And he feels like his weight is just about ideal. But he is a very fit and solid dog, definitely not too willowy. I think between 6-8 months we have still had some growth. He probably was around 14 lbs at 6 months. But not a whole lot of added height. I would question if your groomer is very experienced with poodles.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Thank you all for the feedback. I will definitely tell the groomer about all this. I find it all fascinating. I am super glad he is on the bigger side since I hesitated between standard and mini! He's a lovely boy with a great temperament. I will be eager to see how much he grows in the next months, but probably not that much more. He will be a nice oversize mini. Happy about that!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

If bred as a mini from mini parents then he is a mini, although it seems he will go oversized. Johanna I think what you were noticing when you were showing Zoe is a common trend in minis and toys to push for very close to and hopefully just under on the height limit.


BTW my mom's very small mini is also an Eriand pup.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Johanna said:


> Have you told Eriand how big he is? Some miniatures certainly do go oversize. In this past year I have noticed that quite a few of the minis being shown are at least 15 inches and are quite sturdy. That's why I quit showing my mini - she is 14 inches but only 11 lbs, quite dainty. She looked like a toy next to the others being shown.
> 
> Whenever the dogs being shown - no matter what breed - are big, many are actually oversize. He is very handsome - I suspect he is just bigger than average. So, yes, he is now considered a standard according to the breed standard, but a knowledgeable poodle person would just say that he is an oversize mini.


Wow, your Zoe is just to die for. Really really beautiful! Thank you for the feedback. Cute that he is a teeny standard in some way! or an oversized mini. Love it.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Cassiope said:


> Hello!
> 
> Quick question for you experts. I have a 5 months old mini poodle and I took him to the groomer for the first time. They were adamant that he is no mini poodle (and said that too when I booked the apt). I was very surprised, said I saw the mom who most definitely was a mini, and also that he had almost reached his adult size (around 6 months right?). They told me he's already bigger than a mini and has huge paws and will grow until he's almost 2.
> I measured him at home and he is already 15 inches at the shoulder. He weighs about 12lbs and is VERY SKINNY (we are working on that). My other mini was a fat guy at 15. 15lbs would look great on this one.
> I must agree that when I met him I thought his face looked different than my other minis, eyes set more narrow, just different. And even at 3 months his feet were HUGE, way bigger than my adult mini. The groomer said that too. So, I am VERY curious to have your feedback, although I understand it's not a science. And frankly, it doesnt matter to me either way. I would LOVE if he were bigger, it would be a nice surprise. I love him to bits anyway. But I imagine that if he is 15in at 5.5months, he is technically already a standard? Thanks in advance for the input. A very curious mama!


In terms of whether a dog is a mini, medium (moyen) or standard, there are two ways to use the terms: use the term to describe the dog's specific genetic variety (which is what most hardcore dog people and dog organizations would subscribe to), or use the term to describe what the dog visually looks like, regardless of his genetic variety (regardless of what his parents are).

Because I'm not in the organized dog world, I find it easier to attribute the term to size rather than genetic origin when I describe my own dogs. I've attached pictures of my two poodles - Vontae, the chocolate who's 13 inches/15 lbs, and Shilo, the silver beige who's 16.5 inches/20 lbs. Visually, Vontae looks like a mini and Shilo looks like a medium/moyen. Genetically, Vontae came from two toy parents and Shilo came from two mini parents - meaning Vontae is genetically an oversized toy and Shilo is genetically an oversized mini. However, from the pictures, you will see that Vontae looks much more like a mini than a toy, and Shilo looks much more like a medium/moyen than a mini. Given that, whenever someone asks what they are, I say mini for Vontae and medium for Shilo, because I think it's a bit cumbersome to have to explain the whole "well actually, he's an oversized..." part to most casual dog observers. Now if I run into someone well versed in the show ring, I wouldn't mind getting into a more in-depth conversation about what they actually are. 

Hope that helps. Either way, your pup is gorgeous! FYI as a reference point, Shilo was 15 inches at 7 months and topped out at his current 16.5 inches when he was 9 months. So, looks like your boy may be even bigger! 

Kevin


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

PS amazingly, Shilo was the "runt" boy of his litter; the other two boys, Toby and Ronan, are both pushing 18 inches. The three girls of the litter stayed in-size (14+ inches). Attached is a picture of Ronan - yes, he is "technically" a mini lol! 

Kevin


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Wow amazing! They definitely are big and out of their original size class. Your toy definitely looks like a mini and yes, it is easier to just say he is. Phoenix is not 6 months yes and yes already 15in. Growth will probably slow down a bit now but probably at least an extra inch. If more all the better. Your Shilo looks huge but could be the perspective too. Thanks for the reply and pics!


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Johanna, forgive my ignorance but I had a question regarding your post. You said you stopped showing your girl because the trend is on the bigger side? Doesnt that disqualify them to show as minis? (I know zilch about shows but just curious). can oversize mini be shown in the standard category or if both parents are minis thwn nay? Just curious.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Cassiope said:


> Johanna, forgive my ignorance but I had a question regarding your post. You said you stopped showing your girl because the trend is on the bigger side? Doesnt that disqualify them to show as minis? (I know zilch about shows but just curious). can oversize mini be shown in the standard category or if both parents are minis thwn nay? Just curious.


I suspect what Johanna means is that, nowadays in the show ring, judges favor minis that are in the upper limits of the height range, and in reality, judges also "turn a blind eye" on dogs that are slightly over the height limit (meaning the height limit isn't strictly enforced). 

Kevin


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

Cassiope said:


> Hello!
> 
> Quick question for you experts. I have a 5 months old mini poodle and I took him to the groomer for the first time. They were adamant that he is no mini poodle (and said that too when I booked the apt). I was very surprised, said I saw the mom who most definitely was a mini, and also that he had almost reached his adult size (around 6 months right?). They told me he's already bigger than a mini and has huge paws and will grow until he's almost 2.
> I measured him at home and he is already 15 inches at the shoulder. He weighs about 12lbs and is VERY SKINNY (we are working on that). My other mini was a fat guy at 15. 15lbs would look great on this one.
> I must agree that when I met him I thought his face looked different than my other minis, eyes set more narrow, just different. And even at 3 months his feet were HUGE, way bigger than my adult mini. The groomer said that too. So, I am VERY curious to have your feedback, although I understand it's not a science. And frankly, it doesnt matter to me either way. I would LOVE if he were bigger, it would be a nice surprise. I love him to bits anyway. But I imagine that if he is 15in at 5.5months, he is technically already a standard? Thanks in advance for the input. A very curious mama!


If your puppy is already 15 inches at 5 1/2 months it is almost certain he is going to be an oversize mini because at that age he is not done growing. In technical terms per the breed standard, a Standard Poodle is anything over 15" and up, but if your dog came from all mini breeding, then he is going to be an oversize mini. I expect the groomer is also letting you know because if he is going to be oversize she may be planning to charge you a bit more than what the regular mini fee is for grooming and rightfully so. If he finishes out at 16 or 17", he is going to take longer to groom than a 12 or 13" mini. I would also reach out to the breeder and let her know how big your pup is. You can also ask about the sire if you didn't see him and ask how big he is.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

kchen95 said:


> In terms of whether a dog is a mini, medium (moyen) or standard, there are two ways to use the terms: use the term to describe the dog's specific genetic variety (which is what most hardcore dog people and dog organizations would subscribe to), or use the term to describe what the dog visually looks like, regardless of his genetic variety (regardless of what his parents are).
> 
> Because I'm not in the organized dog world, I find it easier to attribute the term to size rather than genetic origin when I describe my own dogs. I've attached pictures of my two poodles - Vontae, the chocolate who's 13 inches/15 lbs, and Shilo, the silver beige who's 16.5 inches/20 lbs. Visually, Vontae looks like a mini and Shilo looks like a medium/moyen. Genetically, Vontae came from two toy parents and Shilo came from two mini parents - meaning Vontae is genetically an oversized toy and Shilo is genetically an oversized mini. However, from the pictures, you will see that Vontae looks much more like a mini than a toy, and Shilo looks much more like a medium/moyen than a mini. Given that, whenever someone asks what they are, I say mini for Vontae and medium for Shilo, because I think it's a bit cumbersome to have to explain the whole "well actually, he's an oversized..." part to most casual dog observers. Now if I run into someone well versed in the show ring, I wouldn't mind getting into a more in-depth conversation about what they actually are.
> 
> ...


I understand your point and the easiness of just going by what the actual height is. 

There is one thing that distinguishes the three sizes though, besides height : bone structure. An oversized toy compared to a mini will be built differently : it will have thinner, more delicate bones, even though he might be the same height. Same goes for all sizes I suppose. I see it with Beckie and Merlin. Merlin is an oversized toy and Beckie a small mini. Merlin is so delicate, his paws are frail and long, whereas Beckie, who is the exact same height, weighs 2 pounds more and has big bones, big paws, a large muzzle and so on. I would say at least 30%-40% bigger than Merlin’s. 

So if I were to tell people Beckie is a toy, and they went and bought a toy because they want a dog just like her, they would probably not get a sturdy dog like she is but end up with a more delicate dog like Merlin. And vice-versa with Merlin.

Which is why I prefer to go with the genetic term when having a more in-depth conversation. But most of the time, I have to admit to save time I just say «*they’re toys*», and then have to answer «*no, they’re not brother and sister*», and «*no, I’m not breeding them », lol !


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Eclipse said:


> If your puppy is already 15 inches at 5 1/2 months it is almost certain he is going to be an oversize mini because at that age he is not done growing. In technical terms per the breed standard, a Standard Poodle is anything over 15" and up, but if your dog came from all mini breeding, then he is going to be an oversize mini. I expect the groomer is also letting you know because if he is going to be oversize she may be planning to charge you a bit more than what the regular mini fee is for grooming and rightfully so. If he finishes out at 16 or 17", he is going to take longer to groom than a 12 or 13" mini. I would also reach out to the breeder and let her know how big your pup is. You can also ask about the sire if you didn't see him and ask how big he is.


You are so right, the groomer did mention that prices would not be the same... I will educate them regarding mini parents, and just being oversized, if they need to charge a tad more then they do. I will reach out to Erica as well to let her know and inquire about that. When I picked up Phoenix she projected he could be 13-14in, but then he is just a solid dude!  I like that!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Cassiope said:


> Johanna, forgive my ignorance but I had a question regarding your post. You said you stopped showing your girl because the trend is on the bigger side? Doesnt that disqualify them to show as minis? (I know zilch about shows but just curious). can oversize mini be shown in the standard category or if both parents are minis thwn nay? Just curious.


 Kchen95 is quite right. Many judges do not like to measure dogs who look too big. When I was still judging poodles I was very strict about size and did not hesitate to "call for the wicket". In other words, if I thought a dog was oversize I would ask the ring steward to ask the show superintendent to bring the AKC wicket - the device to measure a dog's height - to the ring. You only have measure one or two dogs and the professional handlers and other experienced exhibitors simply will not enter oversize dogs under you.


I think it's important to measure out oversize dogs. Breeders have worked hard to keep poodles within size limits and should be rewarded for their efforts. Nevertheless, it's heart-breaking to have a beautiful puppy who just keeps growing.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Johanna said:


> Cassiope said:
> 
> 
> > Johanna, forgive my ignorance but I had a question regarding your post. You said you stopped showing your girl because the trend is on the bigger side? Doesnt that disqualify them to show as minis? (I know zilch about shows but just curious). can oversize mini be shown in the standard category or if both parents are minis thwn nay? Just curious.
> ...


I understand. And the breed standards are there to maintain the breed’s health and beauty but thankfully Phoenix is just our newest family member and not for show so he can be beautiful to us no matter the size limits. I do find him stunning but then again i’m his mama! ?


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

Cassiope said:


> You are so right, the groomer did mention that prices would not be the same... I will educate them regarding mini parents, and just being oversized, if they need to charge a tad more then they do. I will reach out to Erica as well to let her know and inquire about that. When I picked up Phoenix she projected he could be 13-14in, but then he is just a solid dude!  I like that!


Cassiope, did she tell you the sire was in Boston with a friend? Buddy's paws are like a Saint Bernard's. His mom was dainty and had a slender muzzle, Buddy's is oddly box shaped.


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## Getting ready (May 4, 2019)

I believe Erica's only sire is Ezra who lives in Boston with her co breeder. His photos are on her website. Noodle seems to have more of his mom's face shape. I kind of like the blockier face but he is pretty cute. He is also likely to be oversized but that is what I wanted.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Dechi said:


> I understand your point and the easiness of just going by what the actual height is.
> 
> There is one thing that distinguishes the three sizes though, besides height : bone structure. An oversized toy compared to a mini will be built differently : it will have thinner, more delicate bones, even though he might be the same height. Same goes for all sizes I suppose. I see it with Beckie and Merlin. Merlin is an oversized toy and Beckie a small mini. Merlin is so delicate, his paws are frail and long, whereas Beckie, who is the exact same height, weighs 2 pounds more and has big bones, big paws, a large muzzle and so on. I would say at least 30%-40% bigger than Merlin’s.
> 
> ...


Yup I definitely understand that. There are also times when an oversized toy is not only oversized in height, but also in overall bone structure. From his picture, you can tell Vontae clearly belongs to this category - not only is he way taller than most toys at 13 inches, he's also way more solidly built at 15 lbs. Same with Shilo being an oversized mini who looks way more like a medium not only in height, but also in overall built/structure.

Kevin


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## Getting ready (May 4, 2019)

This is a good shot of Noodle's tiny little face... already losing some of his baby face. So sad.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Cassiope said:


> I understand. And the breed standards are there to maintain the breed’s health and beauty but thankfully Phoenix is just our newest family member and not for show so he can be beautiful to us no matter the size limits. I do find him stunning but then again i’m his mama! ?



Phoenix the oversized mini/normal moyen/undersized standard poodle is super cute! 

Kevin


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Phoenix and Noodle look very similar. But then they share the same dad, and moms are daughter/mother. Erica didnt tell me much about Ezra, I didn't know he was in Boston. Just saw his pics on her website. 
Phoenix's paws are really big for a mini but now that he grew a bit it's more proportioned. But still on the big side. My old minipoo's paws were half Phoenix's size.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

joedesimone said:


> Cassiope, did she tell you the sire was in Boston with a friend? Buddy's paws are like a Saint Bernard's. His mom was dainty and had a slender muzzle, Buddy's is oddly box shaped.


Hi Joe! So you have one of Erica's poodles from Ezra? Phoenix is from Ezra and Angie.
To be frank I couldn't be more pleased with our pup, he is one awesome little dude. And if he's big, even better. 
I know she also breeds standards and we might be reaching out to her for one later on, once Phoenix is a bit older and well trained. Or another mini!?


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Phoenix is so very handsome! Even if he is oversize, he is clearly a miniature. His head gives that away.

While poodles have a single breed standard for all three varieties, there are differences other than height. Perhaps the most obvious difference is in the head. To me, the most beautiful heads belong to the minis. They are long and lean with beautiful almond eyes. You can look at pictures going back many decades and see that beautiful head.

That's not to say that the heads of beautiful standards and toys are not good - it's just that minis are usually exceptional in that department.


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

Cassiope said:


> Hi Joe! So you have one of Erica's poodles from Ezra? Phoenix is from Ezra and Angie.
> To be frank I couldn't be more pleased with our pup, he is one awesome little dude. And if he's big, even better.
> I know she also breeds standards and we might be reaching out to her for one later on, once Phoenix is a bit older and well trained. Or another mini!?


Yes, Cassiope, Buddy is from Gabrielle (Mystical I hope you dance) and Amity I'm in Talladega - is that Ezra? He didn't get his mother's daintiness. His muzzle is similar to that of Phoenix. Does he actually sit there calmly on a car seat? Amazing.

Getting Ready, Noodle is darling.


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## Getting ready (May 4, 2019)

Yes, that's Ezra. They all have the same dad! 


joedesimone said:


> Yes, Cassiope, Buddy is from Gabrielle (Mystical I hope you dance) and Amity I'm in Talladega - is that Ezra? He didn't get his mother's daintiness. His muzzle is similar to that of Phoenix. Does he actually sit there calmly on a car seat? Amazing.
> 
> Getting Ready, Noodle is darling.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

joedesimone said:


> Yes, Cassiope, Buddy is from Gabrielle (Mystical I hope you dance) and Amity I'm in Talladega - is that Ezra? He didn't get his mother's daintiness. His muzzle is similar to that of Phoenix. Does he actually sit there calmly on a car seat? Amazing.
> 
> Getting Ready, Noodle is darling.


We're all family! &#55357;&#56845; Phoenix is not too hyper. I think his favorite position is lying down at my feet! Only thing with him is that I find him extremely hard to potty train. I might get a trainer at this point because it seems to be a long process.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

And you all can count my mom's mpoo in a a cousin so to speak. He was bred by Erica's mother. I'll have to look up his registration since I don't recall who is parents are just now.


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

Cassiope said:


> We're all family! �� Phoenix is not too hyper. I think his favorite position is lying down at my feet! Only thing with him is that I find him extremely hard to potty train. I might get a trainer at this point because it seems to be a long process.


Well they have that in common! I read that it could take 6 months to a year. I'm betting on the year for Buddy.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Johanna said:


> Phoenix is so very handsome! Even if he is oversize, he is clearly a miniature. His head gives that away.
> 
> While poodles have a single breed standard for all three varieties, there are differences other than height. Perhaps the most obvious difference is in the head. To me, the most beautiful heads belong to the minis. They are long and lean with beautiful almond eyes. You can look at pictures going back many decades and see that beautiful head.
> 
> That's not to say that the heads of beautiful standards and toys are not good - it's just that minis are usually exceptional in that department.


I do agree that the mini are just crazy beautiful. I'm so in love with Phoenix I just think he's the most beautiful thing ever, but truly minis are very well proportioned. Like all minis, Phoenix has somewhat of a delicate head and nose. 

Thanks for taking the time to explain it all.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

joedesimone said:


> Well they have that in common! I read that it could take 6 months to a year. I'm betting on the year for Buddy.


Are you serious? Soo long! I can't recall it being such a hardship with my old mini. But then again it was 14 years ago. Phoenix will pee/poop for me almost on command outside, but if I'm not diligent, he'll just go inside as well. He's so smart, and listens so well, I guess he is just not capable of holding it or demonstrating his need properly? I'm hoping I'm not doing anything wrong. I confess I'm surprised.That's the only area that's a problem.


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

Oh not necessarily true for Phoenix, just internet reading. I hope I’m wrong for Buddy.


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

Cassiope said:


> I do agree that the mini are just crazy beautiful. I'm so in love with Phoenix I just think he's the most beautiful thing ever, but truly minis are very well proportioned. Like all minis, Phoenix has somewhat of a delicate head and nose.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to explain it all.


_To me, the most beautiful heads belong to the minis. They are long and lean with beautiful almond eyes. _

_Phoenix has somewhat of a delicate head and nose. _

_This is a good shot of Noodle's tiny little face_

Your puppies do indeed have the long and lean head I expected. I finally have a picture of Buddy after his haircut, but still can't figure out how to include a photo here. When I click on 'insert image', I am asked for a url. Can someone help?

I doubt his head will ever be long and lean.

Oh, and forgot to mention, Buddy came with a raging ear infection. When I asked about it, I was told she didn't notice it before he left. I guess he got it in the car (he also gets carsick, Cerenia works well).


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## Getting ready (May 4, 2019)

When I picked up Noodle, he had been seen by the vet a few days before and got a clean bill of health. Maybe you can see if Buddy’s check showed the ear infection? Noodle got one after but that was my fault. Still learning poodle ears. They’re tricky. 

Noodle had a blockier face as a tiny pup. It got leaner with time. How old is Buddy? Maybe it will change? I actually miss the blocky face.


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

Getting ready said:


> When I picked up Noodle, he had been seen by the vet a few days before and got a clean bill of health. Maybe you can see if Buddy’s check showed the ear infection? Noodle got one after but that was my fault. Still learning poodle ears. They’re tricky.
> 
> Noodle had a blockier face as a tiny pup. It got leaner with time. How old is Buddy? Maybe it will change? I actually miss the blocky face.


No, the vet letter didn’t mention the ear infection and Eriand knew nothing about it. He’s cured now. My vet said to clean as needed. 

He’s just four months. I would like a long and lean face. 

Thanks. 

Any leash eaters among the cousins? He laughed at bitter apple. 

Also, how much water do you give the cousins in a day? Internet says an ounce per pound but he has to go out after just one or two ounces. He still gets 10 to 12 ounces in a day, portioned out. 

He’s good on the kibble and top notch on #2.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

joedesimone said:


> Getting ready said:
> 
> 
> > When I picked up Noodle, he had been seen by the vet a few days before and got a clean bill of health. Maybe you can see if Buddy’s check showed the ear infection? Noodle got one after but that was my fault. Still learning poodle ears. They’re tricky.
> ...


Peggy's unrelated to your pup, but close in age. I give her unlimited access to water. Is this wrong??


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I agree minis are just gorgeous, but I’m biased! It’s like they are sturdy and refined at the same time. 

Here is my Gracie throughout the last year, starting at 8 weeks to her current age of 11 months. She is 15 lbs, and probably 13-14 inches tall. She’s probably done growing. 

Your boy is gorgeous, enjoy every inch and pound of him!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Peggy's unrelated to your pup, but close in age. I give her unlimited access to water. Is this wrong??


I don't think so. I think limiting access to water is to help with potty training. I just took water up in the evening. But Misha wasn't a big drinker.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> PeggyTheParti said:
> 
> 
> > Peggy's unrelated to your pup, but close in age. I give her unlimited access to water. Is this wrong??
> ...


Oh okay. Phew! I didn't even restrict during potty training, but we took her outside on a strict and frequent schedule.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

joedesimone said:


> _To me, the most beautiful heads belong to the minis. They are long and lean with beautiful almond eyes. _
> 
> _Phoenix has somewhat of a delicate head and nose. _
> 
> ...


Hi!

To attach a photo, don't use "insert image", you need to select the paperclip to attach your photo if you're adding photos stored on your pc or tablet.
I added the instructions in the reply box

















































































I know we'd love to see your Buddy!


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Peggy's unrelated to your pup, but close in age. I give her unlimited access to water. Is this wrong??


Oh no! I gave Buddy more water than now, and he peed in his crate. He hasn’t since I dole out the water. 

I hope to get there with him one day.


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi!
> 
> To attach a photo, don't use "insert image", you need to select the paperclip to attach your photo if you're adding photos stored on your pc or tablet.
> I added the instructions in the reply box
> ...


Thanks! I _completely_ missed the paper clip. Here he is, one month apart.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

joedesimone said:


> Oh no! I gave Buddy more water than now, and he peed in his crate. He hasn’t since I dole out the water.
> 
> I hope to get there with him one day.


You will, he will . It's ok to restrict water from around two hours before bedtime. We speak of taking them out after play, after sleep, after meals, basically after anything lol, but I hadn't seen frequency described this way before til I saw this. I was aware of the one hour per month as a max hold time, but it reads differently seeing it all at once.

"According to University of California's Davis College of Veterinary Medicine the frequency of elimination breaks should align with your puppy's age. The age/elimination guidelines are: six to 14 weeks/ eight to 10 times daily, 14 to 20 weeks/six to eight times daily, 20 to 30 weeks/four to six times daily, and 30 weeks and older/three to four times daily."

I can't find it now, but I saw a video demonstration of a balloon standing in for a puppy bladder, proportionally sized. Man, that balloon got big very quickly when "drinking" a days worth! This video spoke of an ounce to a pound for a 50lb dog. Maybe the average is less for smaller dogs?

Found it


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> You will, he will . It's ok to restrict water from around two hours before bedtime.


Thanks! I (retired) usually bring him out every hour or when he signals.I give him an ounce of water every hour until approx. 10:00pm. His last walk is usually 11:00pm and he wakes at 5:00am, and the cycle starts again. He consumes 12 ounces of water a day, how weight is 10.2 pounds.

Very interesting video.

P.S. Sorry to have co-opted your thread, Cassiope.


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## Getting ready (May 4, 2019)

Buddy is so cute!


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Buddy is a cutie! I don’t know about restricting water, I’ve always just kept a bowl of fresh water out. I did not give Gracie water at night in the crate, but she had free access during the day, even in the ex pen.

My problem with her is she likes to swim in the water bowl, so the water winds up all over the floor! That seems to be dwindling as she gets older, as she has found new fascinations, lol. 

I wonder if doling out the water ounce by ounce over the course of a day might not allow him to develop the sensation of a full bladder, and respond appropriately to it. Kind of like free feeding makes housebreaking harder. Just a thought.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I've never heard of portioning out the water that way before. It might be worth the try to cut the allotment by a few ounces but put that full amount in his bowl and see what happens.
If it's going to make any difference, it might take a few days.
And, yes, apologies for being off topic.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Carolinek said:


> Buddy is a cutie! I don’t know about restricting water, I’ve always just kept a bowl of fresh water out. I did not give Gracie water at night in the crate, but she had free access during the day, even in the ex pen.
> 
> My problem with her is she likes to swim in the water bowl, so the water winds up all over the floor! That seems to be dwindling as she gets older, as she has found new fascinations, lol.
> 
> I wonder if doling out the water ounce by ounce over the course of a day might not allow him to develop the sensation of a full bladder, and respond appropriately to it. Kind of like free feeding makes housebreaking harder. Just a thought.


And I imagine it could create the urge to overdo it on water when given a chance, due to a sense of scarcity.

Peggy also is a waterbowl swimmer so I purchased this: 

https://www.chewy.com/lixit-stainle...MIlea_iN-I5gIVjyCtBh214AqtEAQYASABEgLTCfD_BwE

It's mounted up and off the ground, inside her crate (which is always open and available to her), with the mount between the crate and the wall so she can't be tempted to chew on it.

I keep it full 24/7.

Peggy peed in her crate when we first brought her home so I made the crate smaller using a divider. Every couple of weeks, I moved it over a bit to accommodate her growth, and now she has the whole crate. Any extra space will encourage peeing in a young puppy. They can pee in the space and then sleep in the dry spot.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

(Really sorry for hijacking this thread! I guess I'm just passionate about my dog's access to drinking water lol. Some days she drinks so much. Other days much less. Same goes for food. She'll be insatiable for a day or two when she's having a growth spurt, and then eat a fraction of that the next day. I love how she self-regulates.)


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

PeggyTheParti said:


> And I imagine it could create the urge to overdo it on water when given a chance, due to a sense of scarcity.
> 
> Peggy also is a waterbowl swimmer so I purchased this:
> 
> ...


Cassiope, yes, sorry for the continued hijacking! 

Peggitheparti(btw, I love partis!) that bowl would help in Gracie’s x pen. I still put her in the X-pen when we leave the house, not for housebreaking but because she chews...the most recent victim is the tv remote, ugh. These crazy puppies!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Carolinek said:


> PeggyTheParti said:
> 
> 
> > And I imagine it could create the urge to overdo it on water when given a chance, due to a sense of scarcity.
> ...


Oh no! Peggy's been eyeing ours, but has never touched it. I suspect it's just a matter of time.

Our GSD foster used to bring me the remote, unsolicited. I guess she figured I must really like it ?


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

Carolinek said:


> Cassiope, yes, sorry for the continued hijacking!
> 
> Peggitheparti(btw, I love partis!) that bowl would help in Gracie’s x pen. I still put her in the X-pen when we leave the house, not for housebreaking but because she chews...the most recent victim is the tv remote, ugh. These crazy puppies!


Buddy's x-pen would have to be a brick wall. He flings himself at the plywood we have cordoning off the kitchen when he is in it.

I guess he is the black sheep of the Eriand cousins.


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## hrsldy (Oct 8, 2019)

So....cute


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Carolinek said:


> I agree minis are just gorgeous, but I’m biased! It’s like they are sturdy and refined at the same time.
> 
> Here is my Gracie throughout the last year, starting at 8 weeks to her current age of 11 months. She is 15 lbs, and probably 13-14 inches tall. She’s probably done growing.
> 
> Your boy is gorgeous, enjoy every inch and pound of him!


Wow! How gorgeous!!!


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> (Really sorry for hijacking this thread! I guess I'm just passionate about my dog's access to drinking water lol. Some days she drinks so much. Other days much less. Same goes for food. She'll be insatiable for a day or two when she's having a growth spurt, and then eat a fraction of that the next day. I love how she self-regulates.)


No worries! for some reason I am not getting any notifications about people posting here and I missed your posts. Didnt mean to ignore.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> (Really sorry for hijacking this thread! I guess I'm just passionate about my dog's access to drinking water lol. Some days she drinks so much. Other days much less. Same goes for food. She'll be insatiable for a day or two when she's having a growth spurt, and then eat a fraction of that the next day. I love how she self-regulates.)


When I got Phoenix my vet told me to restrict water access because he was drinking A LOT (and pretty horrible at potty training). Apparently puppies can get bored or just like the feeling of drinking? I was told to give him water only after meals and no longer after like 8pm. Frankly I never truly reinforced that. He's 6 months now and drinking less.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

And as an update, Phoenix is now 6.5 months, about 16in tall and apparently 17lbs (I couldn't believe it), AND still a very skinny pup at that. My guess is that he is going to be well over 20lbs and perhaps over 17in as well. His paws are still very big.


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## Getting ready (May 4, 2019)

Noodle was 14.5 lbs and (as best as I can measure) just under 15 inches at 6 months. I’ll have to measure him again soon.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Getting ready said:


> Noodle was 14.5 lbs and (as best as I can measure) just under 15 inches at 6 months. I’ll have to measure him again soon.


Yes I'd be interested to know. Both are already oversized. Things should slow down a bit now, but I feel like Phoenix still has room to grow into his paws.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Ok so not sure if you guys are still getting notifications from this thread but the update is that Phoenix is now 17in at the withers, a little over 7months, and weighs almost 19lbs! Tiny he ain't! ? Now let's see if he's done growing or if there is still room for more... Right now he just looks glorious!


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## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

Wow that is a lot of growth! You are measuring him at the top of his shoulders? My Nova was 12in 8lbs at 5 months. Now at 6 months she is 12.5 in and 9lbs. I really hope she doesn’t have a big growth spurt like your boy. Her mom is 16 and sire 15in. I want her just to stay small and portable. ? She doesn’t have big feet like your boy though.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Mel said:


> Wow that is a lot of growth! You are measuring him at the top of his shoulders? My Nova was 12in 8lbs at 5 months. Now at 6 months she is 12.5 in and 9lbs. I really hope she doesn’t have a big growth spurt like your boy. Her mom is 16 and sire 15in. I want her just to stay small and portable. ? She doesn’t have big feet like your boy though.


From what you are saying, yours probably won't be so big. At 6 months, Phoenix was already 16in and quite heavy. Yours is still light at 9lbs, and small, that's great since you prefer that. and don't they say the smaller the earlier they stop growing? Phoenix is still portable for me, but he can't get much bigger! ? You should see him in the arms of my 7 year old, he looks like a GIANT!


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## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

I can imagine ?. Nova’s mom is 16 and 18lbs and while she is portable it’s not that easy to carry her. Love the size but a little smaller is nice too.?.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

I would bet that at 7 months he is still going to get another 1/2 to 1 inch before he is done growing.....that height would be perfectly fine with me, but I would keep the breeder updated so they can keep records on how many oversize dogs this pairing has produced as well as the sire in general since breeders almost always breed the sire many more times than a particular bitch. If people truly want a mini and expect it to be in the middle of the height range, so 13-14 inches and wind up with one that is 17-18 inches, they are likely going to be less than happy......and if a pairing or that sire is frequently throwing oversize dogs that is something the breeder should prepare prospective puppy buyers for as transparency......


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## Getting ready (May 4, 2019)

I’ll measure Noodle this evening


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Misha's growth was plateauing by around 8-9 months. He is between 14 and 15 inches in height, and weighs currently around 15 lbs though he is lighter than ideal. I expect him to be a solid 16 or 17 lbs by the time he fills out. His agility trainer says he may drop in height slightly as he fills out, as a widening chest can have that effect on the shoulder blades. He is right in line with what was predicted when he was a puppy, and I think he is between his mother and father in size. I agree I would let the breeder know if size went way above expected. Size of adult dogs is important for people who are picking a dog for portability, or for durability with children and other pets. I love the large mini size, but there are some things that would be easier with a smaller dog.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Getting ready said:


> I’ll measure Noodle this evening


I was about to ask you!! How is he doing?


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> Misha's growth was plateauing by around 8-9 months. He is between 14 and 15 inches in height, and weighs currently around 15 lbs though he is lighter than ideal. I expect him to be a solid 16 or 17 lbs by the time he fills out. His agility trainer says he may drop in height slightly as he fills out, as a widening chest can have that effect on the shoulder blades. He is right in line with what was predicted when he was a puppy, and I think he is between his mother and father in size. I agree I would let the breeder know if size went way above expected. Size of adult dogs is important for people who are picking a dog for portability, or for durability with children and other pets. I love the large mini size, but there are some things that would be easier with a smaller dog.


Very smart. I will let her know. I am
thrilled that he is a big boy but as you said he just started to fill out. Didnt know they could get shorter that way. Definitely wouldn’t be ideal for someone looking for shorter. Even for myself it brings on travel limitations as far as carriers go.


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## Getting ready (May 4, 2019)

Noodle is 16 lbs and (as best as I can measure him) 16 inches. He is 7.5 months. I did tell Erica that if all other things were equal we'd prefer an oversized pup.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

Getting ready said:


> Noodle is 16 lbs and (as best as I can measure him) 16 inches. He is 7.5 months. I did tell Erica that if all other things were equal we'd prefer an oversized pup.


So your boy is also already over at 7 1/2 months....As I mentioned to Cassiope re her boy, your dog too will likely get another 1/2 to an inch before done so might wind up at close to 17". You might have told the breeder that you were fine with oversize, and some other people might be as well, but if she is breeding what she is advertising as "minis" which should top out at 15" max and they are going over by several inches with multiple pups in a litter, it is an issue with either what this pairing together, or the sire in general, are throwing. I would make sure you too contact Eriand and let them know so, if they want to responsibly sell in-size minis, they seriously reconsider doing this particular breeding again which has already produced at least 2 fairly oversized dogs, and/or reevaluate which bitches they breed this sire to. Some people really DO want, as far as size, what they work with a breeder for.....


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## Bable (Jan 19, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> He's gorgeous! And (no offense to my spoo Peggy) such a lovely size! Wow. I really love him.
> 
> For comparison, Peggy is 36.8 lbs at 26 weeks, and 19 inches.


Wow! She's gorgeous! I'm just a little taken aback, as my Sable is 7 months old, 23" high at shoulder, and 35-40#. She's very long looking, most notably when sprawled on the floor. Do I have a Giant on my hands? LOL


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## MerrysSarah (Dec 9, 2018)

Bable said:


> Wow! She's gorgeous! I'm just a little taken aback, as my Sable is 7 months old, 23" high at shoulder, and 35-40#. She's very long looking, most notably when sprawled on the floor. Do I have a Giant on my hands? LOL


I'm fostering (probably keeping lol) a 6 month old female spoo. She is 21.5" at the shoulder and weighed 40lbs at the vet the other day. For comparison, my nearly 1.5 year old Merry is 21" and 37lbs fully grown  Pictures are of the foster pup in her first snow 
















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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

MerrysSarah said:


> I'm fostering (probably keeping lol) a 6 month old female spoo. She is 21.5" at the shoulder and weighed 40lbs at the vet the other day. For comparison, my nearly 1.5 year old Merry is 21" and 37lbs fully grown [emoji6] Pictures are of the foster pup in her first snow [emoji170]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She's gorgeous!! What is her name?


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## MerrysSarah (Dec 9, 2018)

Dogs4Life said:


> She's gorgeous!! What is her name?


My middle son named her Rose [emoji257] and it stuck [emoji4]

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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

Eclipse said:


> I would bet that at 7 months he is still going to get another 1/2 to 1 inch before he is done growing.....that height would be perfectly fine with me, but I would keep the breeder updated so they can keep records on how many oversize dogs this pairing has produced as well as the sire in general since breeders almost always breed the sire many more times than a particular bitch. If people truly want a mini and expect it to be in the middle of the height range, so 13-14 inches and wind up with one that is 17-18 inches, they are likely going to be less than happy......and if a pairing or that sire is frequently throwing oversize dogs that is something the breeder should prepare prospective puppy buyers for as transparency......


I hear you. Will do. I know Noodle’s parent specifically asked for oversize. I recall specifically asking the breeder for height’s expectations and 17 it was not but not that I had any demands, just curiosity as to what to expect.


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

MerrysSarah said:


> I'm fostering (probably keeping lol) a 6 month old female spoo. She is 21.5" at the shoulder and weighed 40lbs at the vet the other day. For comparison, my nearly 1.5 year old Merry is 21" and 37lbs fully grown [emoji6] Pictures are of the foster pup in her first snow [emoji170]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Superb!! I ADORE my (big) mini but spoos are a real temptation!!


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## Cassiope (Jul 19, 2019)

MerrysSarah said:


> My middle son named her Rose [emoji257] and it stuck [emoji4]
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


Rose is my daughter’s name! Love it! ???


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## Nahama (Aug 4, 2019)

Nahama said:


> Your guy is beautiful! Our brown mini poodle puppy Kiki is huge and doesn't look anything like our dainty 9 lb silver beige mini poodle Willow. Kiki's dad (American and Canadian champion) is an oversize mini/moyen size - 24 lbs, with a stocky build, and Kiki, who also has a stocky build, will most likely be an oversize mini/moyen as well. Her mom (also a champion) is a slighter build. Kiki has a big nose and big paws. She was the firstborn in her litter, and at 16 weeks she probably already weighs about 14 lbs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Kiki is definitely on the moyen size - at 15 months she stands 16.5" tall and weighs over 20 lbs. She's no longer stocky, but has an elegant build. Some of her behaviors are more like a big dog than a lapdog, but I think she still sees herself as little like Willow.



























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