# Buying from a NEW "Breeder"



## SmokeyBear (Jun 20, 2021)

Hi! Im new to this forum but not to poodles....
I was blessed to be the proud owner of a black standard with champion parents until he passed over the rainbow bridge 5 years ago. 
I am settled into my forever home (as long as life works out) and want to find another poodle to love, I have been wanting a red ever since I saw a pup about 6 or 7 years ago.
A friend has decided to breed poodles and they purchased a red male pup from one breeder and a female red pup from another. They did say they were champion blood lines, but I do not know if that was that the parents are champions or if it is a "Line". My friend said they did the research in how to breed.
These dogs are pretty much farm dogs, they run outside mostly on a working farm and are not trained in the prim and proper way that a champion breeder would train. The female will lick you to death, jump on you and does not respond to the word no at all. The male is about 8 months older and he listens a little better. They are super sweet, and loving and dont mind getting groomed, etc. They seem healthy, their teeth look good, stature is good, size is good, etc. They do scratch at theirs ears quite a bit, the ears are mostly clean, I did a peroxide wipe and it was not super gross.
I have been dog sitting these two off and on over the last two years in order to receive a puppy in exchange when a litter comes.
Here is my question - am i likely to get a quality pup this way, or will their lack of training and show quality care even be a consideration for their pup that I nab at 8 weeks? I plan to take the pup through advanced training, but I'm wondering if this will be worth the fact that a pup should be close to free or should I just buckle down and go to a seasoned breeder?
I'm not looking for a show dog, but I do want a pet that will be highly trainable, somewhat protective, and loveable, but not tear up my home (I cannot leave these dogs alone in my home, there is always a disaster when I come back even if just for two hours) But dang I LOVE Them!! Their temperament is good, but the behavior is not what I want in my pet. I have a beagle german shepherd mix now that is much better behaved except for his beagle parts like to talk alot.
Opinions Please?


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

What kind of testing is your friend going to do on the dogs?

We can agree that temperament is hereditary, but surely behavior/obedience isn't.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I agree with Dianaleez. Training will fix bad behavior. Training will not, however, fix bad temperament or bad health. 

Here is a link to recommended health tests which should be performed on all breed stock. In addition, I would recommend that standard poodles carrying any of the fad colors (red, parti, phantom, brindle, etc.) get the PRA test normally performed for mini poodles too. The reason is that unusually colored dogs are more likely to have intervariety crosses in their ancestry, and they therefore may have inherited recessives not normally found in their variety.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

It sounds like your friends dogs are friendly and outgoing, as well as fairly tolerant since they are fine with grooming. That's a pretty good basis for a lovely pet. I would not be concerned that their lack of training will pass on to pups, since you have dog and poodle experience already.
What can make a difference, is how the pups are raised and socialized. Puppies that are left dirty and not handled a lot or exposed to different things, will be much more difficult to turn into reliable house dogs. Have your friends looked into that aspect? For example, the program from Puppy Culture is an excellent guide to puppy raising








Breeder


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Health is of course a whole other aspect, you should make sure you are comfortable with the level of health testing and preventative medicine the parent dogs have received.


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## TK9NY (Jan 6, 2017)

No, you are not likely to get a "quality" pup out of this. And it has nothing to do with the (obvious) lack of training of the parent dogs.

From what you've said about how they were obtained, it sounds like the dogs came from a BYB. "Champion bloodlines" is a very common BYB slang to make a litter sound like they're worth whatever the owners are charging. If the parent dog/s, or at the very least grand parents, are not titled themselves then it doesn't mean much. Plus, most breeders will not sell a breeding quality dog to just anyone for breeding purposes. They will require certain things be done - such as titling or working the dog, doing the appropriate tests, etc. 

A breeder who simply doesn't care that their puppies are bred (or how) is NOT a reputable/responsible breeder at all, IMO. There is a good chance there is no health testing in either dogs history, which puts health of the pups up in the air. Way, way up in the air. 

Anyone can "research how to breed" - the actual breeding part isn't that difficult. It's everything else - genetics, health, temperament, knowing which dogs to pair and which not to, raising the pups.... you can't learn it all watching youtube. Did they have a mentor? Did they study genetics? "Got a male from one breeder and a female from another" sounds so haphazard. Did they study these dogs backgrounds to make sure they are compatible? Not related? 

I would be less concerned about the dogs not being trained and more about wether or not they have been socialized properly, what their temperament is like, and what testing they've done to prove good health. I would be concerned about their background. If they haven't bothered to properly socialize the adults, they're certainly not going to do anything with 7+ puppies and that right there could very well result in some pretty spastic, fearful, puppies with weak temperaments. "Looks healthy" isn't good enough, either. Have they been examined by a vet? Have they been scored for OFA, eyes, and so on? Cleared of genetic diseases?

Obviously, as this would be a "free" pup, as long as you realize that you're not getting quality and may have health/behavioral issues to deal with down the line, it's up to you if you want to take it. But... most "free" dogs are usually expensive in the long run. No health testing, no guarantee, haphazard breeding... all red flags i would steer clear of. Friend or no.


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## SmokeyBear (Jun 20, 2021)

TK9NY said:


> No, you are not likely to get a "quality" pup out of this. And it has nothing to do with the (obvious) lack of training of the parent dogs.
> 
> From what you've said about how they were obtained, it sounds like the dogs came from a BYB. "Champion bloodlines" is a very common BYB slang to make a litter sound like they're worth whatever the owners are charging. If the parent dog/s, or at the very least grand parents, are not titled themselves then it doesn't mean much. Plus, most breeders will not sell a breeding quality dog to just anyone for breeding purposes. They will require certain things be done - such as titling or working the dog, doing the appropriate tests, etc.
> 
> ...


The only reason for the pup being free is that I have kept the dogs for 45 days in exchange for a pup. They do breed other animals and have other show animals, but not poodles or even dogs. They did purchase these dogs to breed, I have not asked detailed questions, I am planning on waiting until the female is at least pregnant. You do bring up a lot of points that I will ask questions about. Thank you for the detailed input!


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

SmokeyBear said:


> have kept the dogs for 45 days in exchange for a pup


Wow, that’s a lot. A private boarding such as yours goes for at least 40-50$ per dog where I live. Given how much work watching these dogs is I assume it’s a 50$ boarding cost.

45 days x 2 dogs x 50$ is 3600$ 

At that price you easily could buy a quality bred poodle from a breeder who has titles in the sport you are interested in. Probably for less. You might want to start charging for boarding and saving $.

I would look to buy from a breeder who is committed to raising well socialized puppies. A breeder who is considering keeping one of the puppies as their pick or has a contract for the sire of the litter’s owner to keep a puppy will be working with all the puppies. They won’t know which ones will be kept until the puppies are ready to go home. Each puppy will be raised as if the breeder will be keeping and showing that dog. To compete in dog sports temperament, socialization and training is critical.

You can be lucky and find a poorly raised puppy is resilient enough to overcome a poor start … or not. It sounds like this is strictly a business to earn money. The effort put into training these dogs presages the effort into raising their puppies. 

Health wise you can be lucky, but odds are these are poorly bred dogs who will produce poorly bed puppies. All puppies are cute, but you haven’t committed yet so you can research and make an informed decision.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

We pay our sitter $50/day. This deal is not in your favour, unless of course you just enjoy the company of these dogs.

I would recommend finding out exactly where the dam and sire are from and using that information as a starting point. I suspect you won’t be too pleased with what you see. Even mid-level breeders don’t tend to sell dogs with breeding rights to folks who have no plans for them beyond making a little cash.

Really you’re not looking for “prim and proper.” I love a good farm poodle, as long as he or she sleeps indoors and is given ample love and enrichment. You want a puppy from lines that are proven to be physically and temperamentally sound.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

The term "breeder" is very ambitious! Many years back I had two puppies from my second litter. A very respected poodle breeder, and past president of PCA, asked me if I were their breeder. My response was that I did breed the two puppies, but sincethis was only my second breeding, I did not consider myself a breeder. She replied 'good answer' and proceeded to tell me her progression of a breeder:

1. Your first ten years you are a beginner.
2. Your second ten years you should now have found a mentor and are an apprentice. 
3. Your third ten years you are now out on you own and are a novice. 
4. And if you are lucky enough to have survived, proven your line in health, temperament, and conformation; in your fourth tens years you now deserved the right to call yourself a "breeder "


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and welcome!

I keep a list of criteria that I use to evaluate whether a breeder is one I'd choose for a pup for myself.

We often hear from folks that they just want a pet. What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the kind of quality, conscientious breeders many of us prefer to support are _always_ breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions, but are flawless to us.

Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance. Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.
But
I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and above, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks.

Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. There are also poodle specific DNA panels for those testable conditions. Those are companion testing with the OFA/CHIC testing.
Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Temperament and personality are lifelong traits.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a _well bred_ puppy to share life with for many years to come.

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity, and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing or by breeding from titled parents.
It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup (if USA)
Dog Search
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
this includes genetic testing (genotype)
and
testing done by physical exam (phenotype) (eyes, heart, hips, patellas), some annually

! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

Living Conditions
! in home with family *
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
does the contract/guarantee/warranty rule out covering conditions the parents should have been tested for
! puppies are not sold with full registration (breeding rights) simply for the price of admission.
do you fully understand the terms of any contract/guarantee/warranty and can you live with them
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual online site to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"

! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.


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## naybaloog (May 19, 2020)

I would also ask how they are planning to socialize the puppies. Are they just going to let the mom raise them and run on their farm? 

Or are they going to clip the puppies, start potty training, socialize them to animals, get them used to being handled ect...

Without proper testing of the parents AND socializing of the puppies I'd pass on the puppies from your friend.


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## SmokeyBear (Jun 20, 2021)

naybaloog said:


> I would also ask how they are planning to socialize the puppies. Are they just going to let the mom raise them and run on their farm?
> 
> Or are they going to clip the puppies, start potty training, socialize them to animals, get them used to being handled ect...
> 
> Without proper testing of the parents AND socializing of the puppies I'd pass on the puppies from your friend.


I spoke to the friends and they have done quite a bit of work. Both dogs have champion parents from two seperate bloodlines so they are not related. The dogs they have and intend to breed have had a full line up of tests done, she will send me the complete results. They did tell me that once the Dam is pregnant, they will have ultrasounds done and work with their vet from then on, once the pups are born, and vet checked and pups are sound, they will begin socializing with family and myself. It seems they have done more than I have thought so I think we will be ok. Otherwise I will learn a lesson out of this. 
I am totally out of my league here, but I know I love the poodle breed, I miss my poodle so much even after 6 years. I am blessed to have the opportunity to work with someone who is sharing the love of the breed and working out a trade agreement with me. It has been fun working with and getting to know my pups parents on a long term basis. They are great loveable dogs, they just need training. Thank you for all your help!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

SmokeyBear said:


> It has been fun working with and getting to know my pups parents on a long term basis.


That really is a unique opportunity. Looking forward to following along on your puppy journey.


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## SmokeyBear (Jun 20, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> That really is a unique opportunity. Looking forward to following along on your puppy journey.


Lets all cross our fingers and pray.


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