# Bite inhibition



## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Hudson is about 5 months old now. His biting really started when he was about 10 weeks old and has not gotten better. He will jump at us, grab hands, wrists, any body part really, and growl, shake, and refuse to let go for what seems like a long time. It's painful and often draws blood (without real puncture wounds, fortunately). I think it's probably play, but it's so hard that I fear he hasn't developed proper bite inhibition. He was with his litter mates and mother for a full 8 weeks, and we did the whole scream and walk away thing when we deemed his biting to be too hard. (Maybe we were too lenient about this.)

I am working with a trainer, but I can't bother her constantly about everything (and I feel like I am). We'll have puppy class in her facility on Monday, but there isn't much opportunity to ask individual questions there, and we won't actually have an individual session with her until March 7. In the meantime, I thought I'd ask for feedback from all the knowledge people here. Does this sound normal? If bite inhibition is not up to snuff, is it too late to do anything about it?


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## CieCie (Dec 27, 2020)

We're a month behind you with Winnie at 4 months. She's much better with me but still terrorizes my daughter's sleeves and most parts of my husband. My daughter does stand and turn which has helped because Winnie loves Katie and that really does bother her. My husband on the other hand doesn't listen to a word I say and our old poodle girl was his bestie and he is trying to recreate that now. He doesn't want to make her sad or correct her and he honestly is way more of a problem than she is. I have several new scars on my wrists where a canine snagged me and I can't tell you how happy I am that at least I seem to be safe from that degree of puppy crazy! I am a very tenacious person and know at the end of this is the most beautiful and delightful standard poodle girl I could ever imagine so every day is a new day and I try to keep everything moving forward as far as training.... pup and people! 
We do have several stuffed bears here for Winnie to chew and shake, a constantly rotated set of frozen washcloths and at least 6 different chew toys for hard chewers that are always handy. We have become very good at deflection and I encourage you to keep smiling and look ahead to the end of his puppy issues because at some point this will be behind you and he'll be awesome.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm not sure where to draw the line on bite inhibition - I"ll leave that to your trainer and others with more experience. It does sound normal to me.

I have a mouthy poodle - I got her when she was almost a year old. When she's excited, she has a tendency to grab at my hands or any loose clothes like a coat or sweater or baggy pants or her leash. I quickly learned to always have something in my pocket to stick in her mouth - a chew stick like a pizzle or a toy. I could throw the items for her to chase or pop them in her mouth. Either way her mouth was occupied and my hand and clothes were safe. The trick was to be extremely consistent. If there's areas in the house where this happens often, keep a stash of toys handy nearby you can reach for quickly. You have to get something in the mouth before it lands on your hand or clothes. Timing is tricky but you'll figure it out.

Even to this day when she is excited, my minipoo will start to jump up to my hand, remember not to and run around the house to look for something to put her in her mouth and come back to me. She's actually not very mouthy as an adult poodle, except when she's excited. Now it's very endearing, especially since she has learned to channel her need effectively.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I have always tapped the nose and said "no bites". Tap hard enough for it to be mildly uncomfortable.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

If a puppy is regularly or even occasionally drawing blood, I would consider NOT consider it a trivial thing to work with a trainer on. Get a trainer now, not later. 
Internet suggestions are great, and there are a lot of very good people here, but biting and drawing blood is something you want someone to be advising you on based on actually watching you interact with the dog. 

My spoo, the hardest she ever bit me during rough play was a bruise. I have never had a dog draw blood except for one dog who was biting out of aggression (my own fault). Not normal otherwise. No other dog, even puppies, has ever left blood on me. 

Bear in mind that depending on laws where you are, if he was to do this with a guest/stranger he may be subject to bite laws, rabies tests... Drawing blood is serious.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

With all these threads, my number 1 recommendations would be to walk away and leave the room, let the puppy calm down, and make sure they are getting LOTS (maybe 16 hrs) of sleep. 

Do this long before it escalates to a bite and hold. My spoo was very bitey - I used to ask her to do a down while we played. If she couldn't disengage from me to lie down and be calm for 10s, I ended the game as she was getting too riled up and likely to nip.


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

Johanna said:


> I have always tapped the nose and said "no bites". Tap hard enough for it to be mildly uncomfortable.


I tried all the various methods, yelping, walking away, turning away etc. The only one that had a real effect was tapping the top or side of her nose and saying 'NO BITING' in a stern voice. Like you say, just hard enough for it to be unpleasant.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Assuming they’re qualified to help in situations like this (are they certified?) you should talk to your trainer about your concerns. Preface the conversation by asking if you can set up a private session to discuss further, so it’s clear you’re not asking for free advice.

She didn’t draw blood, but Peggy was mouthy for much of her first year. There were times I felt like I couldn’t take it anymore. I vividly recall panicking about this in messages with @Raindrops. But we were consistent: Redirect to a toy. Doesn’t work? Boring statue/no eye contact. Doesn’t work? Remove yourself from the situation. An x-pen is invaluable for separating yourself from your puppy and enforcing nap time.

Another thing we did consistently was give her weekly playtime with other puppies. Social dogs are brilliant about communicating when things have gone too far. The play _instantly_ ends, sometimes just for a split second, but the point is made. You can actually learn a lot by watching them. 

Play sessions were done under close supervision by our trainer and each owner. If things got out of control, we separated them for a breather. If it kept happening, we knew they were tired and impulse control was out the window. Playtime was over.

Play at that age probably lasted 20-30 minutes max. And play with _humans_ was never ever rough. She got way too excited.

Now we can roughhouse with her, no problem. I never thought it would happen, but she truly has the gentlest, most wonderful mouth.

Oh, and that whole shrieking in “pain” thing? That made her crazier. In fact, if anything was going to lead to a real bite, I think it would’ve been something like that. We quickly learned it was all about dialling _down_ the energy, not cranking it up. Yelping absolutely works with some dogs, but not Peggy, and it sounds like not Hudson either.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

P.S. Something to keep in mind when dealing with challenging puppy moments: Are my actions teaching a YES as strongly as they’re communicating a NO? Peggy love yeses. She gets a real thrill out of them. By teaching her what was okay to bite in those moments, we were teaching her coping skills, the same way you’d teach a toddler. And yep, it took a while to pay off. But the first time she paused mid-excitement and then ran to grab a toy instead of chomping on us, we quietly celebrated. This happened more and more until eventually she didn’t even need the toy to chill out. So fun to watch that sort of progress!  

I hope your trainer is able to help you work out a plan that will work for you and Hudson.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> biting and drawing blood is something you want someone to be advising you on based on actually watching you interact with the dog.


This is so important.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> .....
> 
> But we were consistent: Redirect to a toy. Doesn’t work? Boring statue/no eye contact. *Doesn’t work? Remove yourself from the situation. An x-pen is invaluable for separating yourself from your puppy and enforcing nap time.*
> 
> ...



Exactly all these things! 

Nipping often seems to be a symptom of way too riled up, not enough self control. Teaching your dog how to go from a high energy state to a low energy state is really important!.

I found I needed to have at least two offleash sessions for my puppy (and dog) to just RUN and burn stress off every week. This was a challenge, as I dont have a fenced yard. Otherwise my sweet puppy became an out of control maniac. 

@Click-N-Treat has written about an awesome game for kids and dogs ... I think it was called Red Light Green light or Freeze or something like that? She explains it far better than I could but it's all about going from excited to calm over and over again and slowly improving self control.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Yelping has never worked as a signal to get my puppies to stop biting. They simply think they have activated my squeak toy mode and double down on getting me to squeak.

I agree with others that biting is worth talking to your trainer about. Based on your description, he sounds like a normal teething puppy. He's approaching the age where the puppy pass starts wearing off, and adult dogs would start putting him in his place for being a jerk. However, we aren't there to see what he's really doing. Your trainer should be able to observe and offer suggestions.


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## Yellow (Sep 24, 2018)

what would the mom or a dog higher in the pack do??? Swift and stern


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

I'm just echoing mostly. My pup is very very mouthy, I have buckets of toys all over the house to quickly shove something in his mouth and redirect. If he keeps focusing on my hands I stand up and turn my back on him, or pick him up and rub his ears and belly until he chills out trying to teach him how to calm himself when he's on 10. He also plays with other social puppies once a week and does many brain games throughout the day as well as enforced naps. At almost 6 months old, now when he bites, 95% of the time when we say ow, he redirects himself to a toy and brings it to play with us


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Thanks, all, for the responses!

My dog trainer has CPDT-KA and ABCDT certifications. She's also force free - so I doubt she'd be on board with the suggestions to tap Hudson on the nose. I'd consider them at this point, though, if Hudson weren't also extremely head shy. If anyone other than us reaches over his head he freaks out. He is also very easily startled by anything unfamiliar. He has a bunch of fears. When I took him out for an evening walk just now he was too afraid to go anywhere; even the dark seems to bother him. We've been working to increase his confidence and I can't think that any roughness in the area of the head would help. 

My husband, a frequent Hudson target, says none of the bites he has received have bled. Some of my bleeding bites have probably been on my psoriasis patches which do bleed more easily than unaffected skin. Hudson has also been targeting my hands while we are out walking, leaping in the air to seize them as if they were tug toys, and I guess it would make sense that that would lead to bleeding. A while back, he also bit my face and drew blood there. I will raise the issue with the trainer at our session next weekend.

It is so difficult to figure out what toys might work. He doesn't like the things for hard chewers. Sometimes he'll bite on a rope toy. Sometimes he'll play with squeaky balls or stuffed animals. Even engagement with things he's interested in won't always stop the biting, though. One day last week I had him in my lap and he was peaceably chewing on his brush. Next thing I knew he had bitten my hand. Maybe eventually I'll learn how to predict his next move, but we're not there yet.

Exercise is difficult - we had a bunch of people come out to bid on fence construction, but we never went with any of them, and now we'll need to wait until spring. On days when I've been able to get Hudson to sprint with me on leash, he's calmed down quite a bit afterwards, but he often won't do that because he can't simultaneously run forward and jump on me/around my legs. And sometimes he prefers to stand around and sniff the air, which I have to admit is quite endearing.

Hudson will be assessed in a couple of weeks by the daycare associated with my trainer's facility, and if he passes, we'll be able to send him there for a couple of days a week, for play with other dogs and exercise. That would really be great. In the meantime, I'll try to take him on a hike on a weekend day, weather permitting. Maybe that would tire him out.

I do think part of the problem is a total lack of impulse control. I'll look up the game Click-And-Treat posted and see if it is something I can try.

Thanks again all for your feedback!


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

For exercise - would a soccer field and a 30-50 ft rope help? You stand still (hands tucked and out of reach), puppy gambols about and sniffs. Maybe bring a LONG toy, maybe something like a skinneez that keeps your fingers 2 ft from the dangling end of the toy.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

More ideas for you, since I have a lot of empathy about the wild and crazy spoo puppy and no fence thing. 








A big list of ways to tire your dog without a yard


My life is so much better if Annie gets three 20+ min walks a day - but it usually doesn't happen. So I thought I'd start a big list of the ways I've found to tire out a dog, and hope someone will add to it. I'm especially interested in ways to make normal everyday activities more tiring for...




www.poodleforum.com


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

For Want of a Poodle, I have a 20 foot rope and a decent size yard, but the yard and all of the fields around here are covered in deep snow at the moment. That is definitely something I can do when the weather is nicer. And I am trying with long rope toys.

And I just saw your thread on ways to tire out dogs. I'd missed that at first. Many thanks!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m glad you’ve got a good trainer and will follow their advice. Hudson could very well be going through a fear period. If he seems more on edge than usual, keep things chill and familiar, as negative experiences during these pivotal times can leave a lasting impression. And I think you’re wise to not start fighting force with force, even when it’s very tempting because you feel like you’ve tried everything else. It could make him even more head shy, or he could interpret it as playing and get even more amped up. In fact, a common mistake so many of us make is using hands to shove a mouthy puppy away. You might as well holler, “Game on!”  

Hope you’ll keep us posted on what your trainer recommends. Consistency (as long as you’re consistently doing the right thing) is key. And it really can take a while to pay off.

I wish I knew when Peggy stopped being a landshark. There were times it absolutely felt like it was going to last forever. I vividly recall her catching her tooth on my nostril and feeling like THAT’S IT I’M DONE AUGGGHH!!!! Now she is horrified if her tooth knocks too hard against my hand when we’re playing.

I highly recommend keeping toys of all shapes, sizes, and textures on hand, and be sure to animate them so they’re more exciting than waving hands. And for tiring your puppy out during icky weather, you can’t beat a flirt pole.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Elizabeth said:


> For Want of a Poodle, I have a 20 foot rope and a decent size yard, but the yard and all of the fields around here are covered in deep snow at the moment. That is definitely something I can do when the weather is nicer. And I am trying with long rope toys.


 I forget not everyone lives in places where the snowmobiles do loops through any field they can find on weekends and pack down a nice place to walk the dog. There are some advantages to small towns, I guess. 

Any large empty parking lots that are plowed? Maybe a school parking lot on a weekend or a store? 

When I lived in the city, I used to hang out with Annie in the evenings in the parking lot of a store that closed at 5 pm, take her up and down the steps, do loops around pillars, hop up on benches and planters, etc.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

One of Peggy’s best body & brain workouts was a slow sniffy walk around the outer perimeter of a big box store. If they’ve cleared their snow, that might be an option. We used Walmart, Home Depot, and Petco. There are so many sights, sounds, and smells in parking lots.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Peggy, I absolutely will update re our progress with the trainer. I hope I have good things to report! And flirt poles! I took ours apart and gave the stuffed toys to Hudson. Guess I'll put it back together.

For Want of a Poodle and Peggy, parking lots are excellent ideas. I can think of several I could use, and yes, parking lots here tend to be kept free of snow. Thanks again!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Elizabeth I do think most of what you have described sounds pretty normal for a spoo pup. Lily was very mouthy as a pup, Javelin not so much when a pup, but a mouthy grown up. I actually don't mind a mouthy dog so long as there is no pressure and I would think psoriasis may be a part of why you end up bleeding. That your husband hasn't had blood drawn says Hudson has good bite inhibition. I never had any success with yelping like I was hurt when our dogs were young. It only seemed to get our pups more worked up if anyone did so. I had much better success with being boring until the pup calmed down. The It's Yer Choice game which may be what you are referring to is a great way to install some impulse control (and this is really about a lack of well developed impulse control). Flirt poles are also an excellent way to scrub some impulsiveness and some energy off a youngster, but remember since your boy is still growing to keep it close to the ground. Dragging a flirt pole behind me was a great way to develop Javelin's centripetal attraction to me during his first few months. I was able to turn that into an excellent recall, one where I can call him away from loose chickens (and he has very healthy prey drive)!

This is old and he was very savvy on Its Yer Choice when I made it, but here is a video of Javelin doing this game around many other dogs working at an obedience match. There is a crate with a golden going in and out just to my right and another dog just to my left behind a baby gate.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Catherine, thanks for your feedback! I'm so happy you showed up here. That is very reassuring. 



lily cd re said:


> I actually don't mind a mouthy dog so long *as there is no pressure *and I would think psoriasis may be a part of why you end up bleeding. That your husband hasn't had blood drawn says Hudson has good bite inhibition.


Of course there's a nagging voice in my head saying "but there is pressure!" I am still sore from a bite yesterday, though there is no visible bruise. Hudson is unable to manage heavy chewer toys or even tear holes in socks at this point. I'm wondering if it's possible that he just doesn't have the jaw strength to cause real injury yet and that it will come as he matures. Maybe I'm just borrowing trouble, though. Goodness knows I tend to do that.

I will absolute try the game you played with Javelin. Thank you so much for linking the video!


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

Head shyness can be caused by an ear infection.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Is he teething yet? Once they shed their deciduous teeth there is no serious damage likely to be done unless it is an intentional bite. I meant to mention above that part of why I don't take issue with mouthiness is that if I can put my hands in a dog's mouth it become much easier to give pills and to retrieve forbidden objects. When our dogs were young we always played with all parts of their bodies (tails, feet, ears, etc.). For mouths it was let me see your snarly teeth. We would just lift their upper lips and also gently open their mouths pulling down on their lower jaw. I never have problems giving pills!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Bites are much more painful with those baby razor teeth! Puppy Peggy drew blood from my parents just while playing, because their skin is much thinner and more fragile than ours. It had nothing to do with her bite inhibition. Purely accidental. Her adult teeth don’t do that.


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## Yellow (Sep 24, 2018)

weather permitting....some tennis courts are fully fenced Also look up SniffSpots maybe some in your area. Doggy daycare is great place to tire him out


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

The vet has said Hudson's ears are fine and he does let me rub them, so I don't think that's the issue. My trainer thinks he's head shy because I used to pick him up to take him up and down stairs and to keep his feet from touching the ground when we were off our property (pre-vaccination) and he really didn't like it. We also didn't do a great job socializing him

He's been this way since his first vet visit though, and he's nippy with the vet staff when they need to do invasive exams. Maybe something happened in that initial visit that set him off. The second time we went there, he was afraid and did not want to enter the clinic. He now prances along happily with his favorite vet tech, though, so he must no longer associate the clinic with scary procedures.

I don't know for sure if Hudson is teething but he certainly behaves as if he is.

Re exercise, Hudson went to the vet to be weighed so his flea and heartworm preventatives could be properly dosed, to 2 pet stores, down a couple of blocks in town, and partway up a trail today and he's now out cold, so I guess I know what to do to wear him out.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I think it’s important to distinguish between puppy nips and mouthiness, and biting with intent. This is where your trainer can really be of help.

The second time we took Peggy to the vet, it was for a happy visit. She was no longer scared (the first appintment she was petrified!), but she mouthed our vet to such a degree I actually asked him if it was okay. He said yes, but that biting with intent would _not_ be okay, and there is a clear difference.

From what I’ve seen in YouTube videos, biting with intent would generally be preceded by a shift in body language, such as a turned head, stiffening, and/or whale eye—the sort of body language that social dogs read beautifully, but humans can easily miss, especially if it happens quickly.

When puppy Peggy had her first resource guarding episode, I was extremely clumsy with her, but she nevertheless demonstrated this escalation in textbook fashion, doing everything she could to communicate her discomfort: She got very still. She clenched her jaws down hard on the item. She stared at the ground. She turned her head away slightly. She growled. Then finally she snarled and sort of snapped the air to the right of her head.

Yes, it took me _that_ long to back off. Ugh. Clumsy human. If I hadn’t, it’s very possible she would have bitten me (and not in the “I’m exploring the world with my mouth because I’m a puppy!” way).

From day 1, we have been diligent about exploring her teeth, tongue, and jaws with our hands and reinforcing a soft mouth. Her play dates help with this, too. The hope is that if she _is_ ever compelled to bite—dog or human—all this effort will pay off and it won’t be with catastrophic force.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Peggy, our trainer observed one nip when Hudson was not especially excited and thought it was on purpose to tell me to back away from his head. She didn't seem unduly alarmed by this; she just told me to disengage/ignore him briefly to signal disapproval. She said he needed to learn that this behavior was rude. She also told us to pair feeding with touching his sensitive areas and while I have done some of this, it probably hasn't been enough.

I noticed today when I was maneuvering his harness and seatbelt clip he mouthed me a bit, very lightly. When I disregarded that he mouthed with more force. Oddly, these nips tend to be much less painful than the play bites. I guess I should mention to the trainer that this is still happening.


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## Pat Mc (Sep 27, 2020)

We brought our little guy home when he was about 6 months old, and I was surprised at how bitey he still was at that age. As recommended by a few others on this thread, we tackled this a few ways: 

redirect to a toy. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is that it be the _right _toy. Sometimes a hard toy satisfied him, sometimes a fabric toy, but the thing that worked best for our little guy when he was in a bitey mood was a tubular rubber tug toy covered by a tightly woven fabric. 
walk away or pop him in his pen. When teeth meet skin, the fun stops. This isn't a long "timeout", it's a brief separation to help him make the association. You have to be consistent, and it isn't something they learn in just a few lessons. You might do it once, let him out and then have to do it again right away. That's OK, just "rinse and repeat." If you do it over and over and over, for as long as you need to, they _will _learn. We humans usually give up much too soon because we're not getting results fast enough and we lose patience.
recognize when it's nap time. We got to know the difference between when he just needed to chew and when he was overtired and needed a nap.
remind yourself that this will improve with time. Our little guy is 11 months old now, and I honestly can't remember the last time biting was an issue, but I do remember how overwhelming it was in the beginning.
Yelping/screaming can be seen as a game, so isn't usually an effective approach. 

Puppy biting is part of puppy development and needs to be channeled to appropriate objects. The fact that your pup is exhibiting puppy biting doesn't mean that he hasn't developed bite inhibition. When the puppy biting subsides, you'll see what his bite inhibition is really like. Our little guy has very good bite inhibition, but we couldn't really see that when he was younger because it was overshadowed by _all _the puppy biting.

Hang in there, this will pass.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Elizabeth said:


> Peggy, our trainer observed one nip when Hudson was not especially excited and thought it was on purpose to tell me to back away from his head. She didn't seem unduly alarmed by this; she just told me to disengage/ignore him briefly to signal disapproval. She said he needed to learn that this behavior was rude. She also told us to pair feeding with touching his sensitive areas and while I have done some of this, it probably hasn't been enough.
> 
> I noticed today when I was maneuvering his harness and seatbelt clip he mouthed me a bit, very lightly. When I disregarded that he mouthed with more force. Oddly, these nips tend to be much less painful than the play bites. I guess I should mention to the trainer that this is still happening.


That sounds to me like he’s using his mouth the way humans use their hands, which is perfectly normal while he’s still learning what’s appropriate in the human world. But without seeing him in action, it’s hard to say for sure. I’d definitely defer to the certified professional. Ideally you’d set up a private session or two so they can observe.

As far as sensitive areas go, every situation is different, and Hudson may require an individualized approach, but with Peggy we desensitized her through a combination of play and clicker training. Her back was very sensitive, especially near her tail. So I made up a game called “car wash” where she runs back and forth under my hands or a towel. She still loves it. I then took it a step further by clicking and treating with each deliberate touch. I do this with collar grabs, too, and even the occasional pat on top of her head. Dogs generally dislike this kind of affection, but it’s such a common greeting from strangers, I figure it warrants a little practise.

Again, this is all stuff your trainer should be able to help with. But I personally like to use a play approach whenever possible, as play is something we do multiple times a day with a puppy anyway. It’s a perfect opportunity for training. And the clicker is like a human-poodle translator. I love it. Our trainer is certified by the Karen Pryor Academy. She was a great help when I was first starting out with the clicker.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I have had excellent success with yelping. My first dog was an Aussie. As is common with herding dogs he was very mouthy. My breeder coached me how to yelp. You really have to sell it and be convincing. I have helped my niece with teaching bite inhibition to 4 labs (see puppy trains guide dogs). She lacks the dramatic flair needed. I have never had a dog get more hyped up. I do think most people don't sound convincing. If you sound like you are faking it is all just a big game. I also find the It's Your Choice game effective and requiring a sit before exiting or entering the house or eating. It is all about impulse control. I also always would redirect the behavior to something your puppy is allowed to chew or bite - usually a bully or toy. I would make this a priority. It is easily taught and those sharp puppy teeth are no fun.


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## DawnW (May 7, 2020)

Elizabeth said:


> Hudson is about 5 months old now. His biting really started when he was about 10 weeks old and has not gotten better. He will jump at us, grab hands, wrists, any body part really, and growl, shake, and refuse to let go for what seems like a long time. It's painful and often draws blood (without real puncture wounds, fortunately). I think it's probably play, but it's so hard that I fear he hasn't developed proper bite inhibition. He was with his litter mates and mother for a full 8 weeks, and we did the whole scream and walk away thing when we deemed his biting to be too hard. (Maybe we were too lenient about this.)
> 
> I am working with a trainer, but I can't bother her constantly about everything (and I feel like I am). We'll have puppy class in her facility on Monday, but there isn't much opportunity to ask individual questions there, and we won't actually have an individual session with her until March 7. In the meantime, I thought I'd ask for feedback from all the knowledge people here. Does this sound normal? If bite inhibition is not up to snuff, is it too late to do anything about it?


Try a spray bottle filled with water or put him in his crate for a nap. Betsy is our first SPoo and I did a lot of research beforehand so I thought I was prepared. No where did I read anything about the fierce baby shark stage. Holy cow!! I’ve never had a puppy that went through a biting stage that hard or that long. And she would draw blood. It was so bad with me that I would have large band aids all over my arm. I tried ALL the tricks that I knew. I would turn & walk away, popped her on the nose, took away the current toy & gave her a new one. Yelling ouch real loud was a real thing for me. It got so bad that I called the breeder and debated giving Betsy back. The breeder recommended 2 things - biting Betsy back and a squirt bottle. The biting thing was weird to me so I opted for the spray bottle. That worked thankfull!! I had spray bottles placed throughout the house and when Betsy got too rambunctious and into her biting stage, I would spray her. Worked like a charm. I also learned that SPoo’s much like kids, would get overtired so I would put her in her crate for a nap. The overtired thing was NEVER mentioned anywhere either. I’m now prepared for a playmate for Betsy - I think.  Good luck!!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would most certainly NOT recommend it, but I remember my grandmother would tell of the time she had a puppy at the bitey stage playing with a visiting small boy. The pup bit the boy, who promptly bit the puppy back. And the puppy never, ever nipped him again.

I did actually have success with yelping, very realistically because it hurt, and withdrawing muttering that I was not going to play with horrible bitey puppies. As CT Girl says, you need to channel your inner dram queen and really mean it. Squealing and flapping or pushing just make it more exciting. A loud yelp followed by a growly grumble as the game stopped completely eventually did the trick - but mine were tinies, of course, which made it much easier to move out of reach.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

@fjm I think you have identified why yelping never worked for me: I am a lousy actor. The puppy most definitely got the heartfelt message when I swore $%&! and departed clutching a wounded appendage.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

I guess my acting skills are also not up to poodle standards. I've tried yelping in all sorts of different ways, holding my hand as if badly injured, pretending to cry, etc., with no reaction other than continued biting. Yelling doesn't faze Hudson in the least. I thin his communicate with the human skills are still...under development.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I did a lot of acting in my past life, and I tend to think it’s the dog more than the person. My last girl would have crumpled if I’d yelped or expressed any sort of displeasure. With Peggy it was like pouring gasoline onto her already wild puppy fire.

That’s not to say they can’t change. Peggy _now_ would feel deep doggy horror if I cried out in feigned pain. She just needed to grow up a little.

As for biting back.....eeeeeesh. Lol. Definitely seems like something a child could do better, as it would be a pure, well-timed, gut response, similar to a dog’s. Adults are so much clumsier with corrections. In the split second we’d pause to think about how to react, the moment would be lost.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

The acting thing is really funny. The only time when Oona reacts the way she "should" is when I've gasped in genuine pain. She knows the difference and the real gasp is clear as day to her. I can dislike the mouthing or nipping and find it a nuisance, but if I'm fully in control of my reaction, she doesn't take a yelp our ouch seriously. It's a good reminder that dogs don't lie, and when it comes to body language and physical interaction, at which they're the real experts, they're not easy to fool.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Oonapup, I've definitely cried out in real pain, too, and to Hudson it's all part of the game. I think he needs to grow up and mature emotionally a bit, and that's just going to take as long as it takes, I guess.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Elizabeth said:


> Oonapup, I've definitely cried out in real pain, too, and to Hudson it's all part of the game. I think he needs to grow up and mature emotionally a bit, and that's just going to take as long as it takes, I guess.


Fair enough, they're all different! When Oona was littler (10-13 weeks or so?) that was the case for her too. And now at 7 months we're in a resurgence where she can't seem to stop grabbing my daughter's clothes and socks (while she's wearing them) and the rarer but still annoying overexcited moments where she gets nippy with me, she bites hard enough that it really hurts, so there have been steps forward and backward for us.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

I don't want to make it sound as if Hudson is awful. He's very sweet when he's not frantic and over-aroused. He's playful and funny. I believe he'll be a very affectionate adult, as he already craves contact and snuggles. He's also able to be independent. We can go out for short periods, and he's quite chill about it. But although he's clearly bonded to us, he doesn't have much desire to please us, and when he's excited, he's a barking, biting, leaping whirlwind. He likes people when he meets them but the neighbors are all afraid him, sadly.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Skylar said:


> I have a mouthy poodle - I got her when she was almost a year old. When she's excited, she has a tendency to grab at my hands or any loose clothes like a coat or sweater or baggy pants or her leash. I quickly learned to always have something in my pocket to stick in her mouth - a chew stick like a pizzle or a toy. I could throw the items for her to chase or pop them in her mouth. Either way her mouth was occupied and my hand and clothes were safe. The trick was to be extremely consistent. If there's areas in the house where this happens often, keep a stash of toys handy nearby you can reach for quickly. You have to get something in the mouth before it lands on your hand or clothes. Timing is tricky but you'll figure it out. /QUOTE]
> 
> I am trying to figure out how to respond. What you are doing when you put a pizzle or a toy in her mouth when she grabs at your hands or clothes is reward her!
> 
> This may make her mouth occupied, but also only makes her do it more!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

@kontiki, if done correctly, redirection does not reward rude behaviour. It’s just a way of saying, “No, don’t do that. Do this instead.” And it works beautifully with time and patience.

But....it’s only one piece of the puzzle, the rest of which is outlined nicely in this article: Bite Inhibition Training | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

An excerpt:

“Although bite inhibition is a vital lesson, making it a training goal doesn't mean you have to tolerate constant puppy mouthing. Puppy teeth hurt!

“Work on bite inhibition _only _when your pup is calm and you have time to sit on the floor and play gently. If the pup bites too hard, yelp. If he backs off, reinforce with calming pats and more interaction. If he gets too excited and bites harder, end the game immediately.

“To end the game, you must be able to get away from the puppy with as little fuss or attention as possible. Even negative attention is attention. It's often helpful to have the puppy tethered, so you can simply move back out of his reach. Or play with him in a confined area and simply stand up and leave that space when he bites too hard.

“The rest of the time, deal with mouthing by redirecting the puppy to acceptable chew toys. Literally surround yourself with chew toys, so you can stuff them in his mouth, one after the other, until he gets the message that you are not going to let him chew on you.

“Puppy mouthing never requires anything more aversive than time outs or withdrawal of attention. Work on bite inhibition when you can, and at other times redirect or end the game. Physical aversives are confusing, unfair, and unnecessary.”


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Yes, but a pizzle is a treat as far as my dog is concerned.

I absolutely agree with the quote 'end the game immediately', and having the 'puppy tethered so you can simply move back out of his reach'
(and remove eye contact and your presence I will add).
------
I have also found that puppies fed raw, for example chicken legs/thighs/even backs, are not as likely to bite humans. The last sentence is from my own experience. They are also far less likely to chew up inappropriate things like shoes, etc.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Assuming they’re qualified to help in situations like this (are they certified?) you should talk to your trainer about your concerns. Preface the conversation by asking if you can set up a private session to discuss further, so it’s clear you’re not asking for free advice.
> 
> She didn’t draw blood, but Peggy was mouthy for much of her first year. There were times I felt like I couldn’t take it anymore. I vividly recall panicking about this in messages with @Raindrops. But we were consistent: Redirect to a toy. Doesn’t work? Boring statue/no eye contact. Doesn’t work? Remove yourself from the situation. An x-pen is invaluable for separating yourself from your puppy and enforcing nap time.
> 
> ...


Yeah, we always taught to give a gutteral growl like a mother dog, not a shriek. When we first brought Wilson and Nike home they were together for about six weeks. We did separate them several times a day, but they had play sessions. We never had bite inhibition problems with them. I do not know if it was because they learned from each other that biting too hard hurt, or if it was because we had an older male poodle and an older female Airedale...both were quick to squelch puppy craziness. My male had been used at obedience classes to teach pups how to be respectful when greeting adult dogs. He was tolerant, but not a pushover.The female Airedale was just grumpy, hah!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Charmed said:


> Yeah, we always taught to give a gutteral growl like a mother dog, not a shriek. When we first brought Wilson and Nike home they were together for about six weeks. We did separate them several times a day, but they had play sessions. We never had bite inhibition problems with them. I do not know if it was because they learned from each other that biting too hard hurt, or if it was because we had an older male poodle and an older female Airedale...both were quick to squelch puppy craziness. My male had been used at obedience classes to teach pups how to be respectful when greeting adult dogs. He was tolerant, but not a pushover.The female Airedale was just grumpy, hah!


I don’t recommend dog parks, but there was one time with early-adolescent Peggy when we KNEW we needed the help of an adult dog. My gut was speaking loud and clear. So off we went.

Well, I think the poodle gods were smiling down on us that day because we met a man at the park with not one, not two, but _three_ generations of poodles! The adolescent tired her out, the adult put her in her place, and the senior calmed her down. Couldn’t have asked for a better experience for a puppy who was starting to test her boundaries.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

PeggyTheParti said:


> ... we met a man at the park with not one, not two, but _three_ generations of poodles! The adolescent tired her out, the adult put her in her place, and the senior calmed her down. Couldn’t have asked for a better experience for a puppy who was starting to test her boundaries.


I do believe they know their own! Hooray! They are good at training each other


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Well, Hudson is definitely teething. My husband was sitting with him and a large tooth fell out!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Tooth fairy time! How exciting for you since those adult teeth are not nearly so painful. Remember that he will want/need to chew a lot while those big boy teeth come in. The pressure and vibrations help to set bone firmly around the roots of the teeth.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Hudson is very particular about what he chews. Anything he has even intermittent access to quickly loses value. I thought I'd really discovered something with bully sticks. He found them incredibly exciting and desirable at first. Today he's decided they are good enough to hide in his bed, but not interesting enough to actually chew on.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Our dogs love buffalo ears and chicken jerky. You might find building up anticipation by play acting that you really like the item you are preparing to offer.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Thanks, Catherine. I'll try that the next time I present a bully stick. I did get some cows' ears (couldn't find buffalo) and he's chewing one right now.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

It sounds like your in a city-ish environment. There's ~5 "good" patches of grass that Basil will sprint circles around me the length of the leash. My goal isn't to create a super athlete... Just drain the battery enough.

The trick is to do the zoomie jump. You basically just jump up with both feet... a tiny hop in the air. It could take 2-3 hops. Then, off she goes! Soft church grass or areas where the grass that's 50% moss where she can get some traction are her favorite.... Nothing says "fun" more then leaving a trail of destruction.

I like to think this is equivalent to a human running up and down the block once. It's not much, but it's just enough.

Try holding the bully sticks while you watch tv or chill. Half the trouble is securing the stick with paws. So if mom or dad anchor it, then puppy can get a more shredding action.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

We're in a suburban area with lots of access to parks, trails, hills, etc. Alas, I used to jump and run with Hudson but now that amps him up more and causes him to jump and bite! We did get a decent walk in today in a new-to-him park. He got chicken for not attacking me or barking at people and that helped a little. We also went to 2 pet stores and he met people and dogs. He rode on a seat protector that had been sprayed liberally with Adaptil and now he is finally calm.

We will see the trainer tomorrow. It can't come soon enough!




Basil_the_Spoo said:


> Try holding the bully sticks while you watch tv or chill. Half the trouble is securing the stick with paws. So if mom or dad anchor it, then puppy can get a more shredding action.


I figured out that I could renew his interest in the bully stick by running the end under water and rubbing it a bit until it softened.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Elizabeth said:


> I figured out that I could renew his interest in the bully stick by running the end under water and rubbing it a bit until it softened.


And you might try hanging on to it so that he has to finally wrestle it away from you. He will find it far more desireable if he has to work a bit for it! Worked with mine anyway


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Kontiki, I will try that - thanks! 

Well, the trainer thinks Hudson's disregard for our cues and reactions means some serious relationship building is order. My husband has said he doesn't think Hudson has bonded to us, that he could take us or leave, and I guess that's at least somewhat true. So, there are relationship games to play. She also thinks we've built up a history of letting him ignore us (which is true - I'll either raise the value of the treats and wave them under his nose or give up when he blows me off) and we need to work on that. Mostly, she thinks Hudson needs way more exercise. He needs to be out on a long line in the yard for at least 2 hours per day in 20-minute increments, with intermittent recalls and games, but not on walks around our block for now, because he's using those to practice the lunging and biting. (I told her he does less of this in parks, where the environment is more stimulating.) She says he's extremely frustrated. And he needs more freedom in the house when we are able to watch him. Basically, though, although he's spoilt and displaying an adolescent attitude, she thinks he's a perfectly normal puppy. 

My next week is extremely busy with (at home) work, and I'll be away dealing with my mother's 2nd Covid shot next weekend, so short term this will be extremely challenging.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Oh, also, are you free feeding him? or giving him a meal for example in the am and in the pm. If you can wait to do brief trainings before a meal, when he is hungry he will be far more attentive. Some dogs that are free to just eat anytime are not very food/treat oriented.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

He is super food oriented, and when that's on offer, the environment isn't too stimulating, and he's not too amped up, he's motivated. The problems arise where there are distractions and excitement. We don't feed him at mealtimes; he eats throughout the day in toys, a little bit during training and by hand.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Elizabeth said:


> He is super food oriented, and when that's on offer, the environment isn't too stimulating, and he's not too amped up, he's motivated. The problems arise where there are distractions and excitement. We don't feed him at mealtimes; he eats throughout the day in toys, a little bit during training and by hand.


I'll let the trainers and more experienced folks chime in, but it sounds like what would be helpful just to reduce the situations where he's getting over stimulated and has the opportunity to get out of control with biting is to start in the most boring environments/most chill times for him and gradually scale up the stimulation/distraction/excitement. This is what we're working on, and its easier said than done when aspects and routines of daily life become massively exciting! I watched a "look at that" video someone linked here, where the trainer waved a toy as a distraction and as a thing to teach them to "look at", and then at the next step, had another person wave their hands at a distance as a distraction, before scaling up to things like people and dogs passing - I bet that would be a great exercise for Hudson, but also you could use similar controlled distractions indoors (like waving a toy, or doing a funny dance) as distractions before working up to calm listening outdoors or in more exciting situations. We are working on trying to manage the interactions between Oona and my 9 year old daughter in the mornings especially, and are rewarding her for going to her mat and for staying on her mat helpful for her self control, but we have to stay proactive and do it every day. And anticipating the times when she's especially likely to get hyper and bitey and planning workarounds/distractions, like having her hunt for her Kong stuffed with an apple slice while I'm making my kid's lunch to distract her from the fun of grabbing my kid's pants and socks while she's trying to eat breakfast - has been helping somewhat.

There are times when I can't give her a time out in her crate or end the game or leave the situation, like when we're out on a walk. She gets super hyper and jumpy-bitey when we first cross the street at the start of her walks and when we leave the dog park. I recently realized that if I hold the leash in both hands and shove it into her mouth, that satisfies her need to bite something while I satisfy my need to get out of traffic. This tends to stop the jumping/biting quicker than the other methods I've tried like stepping on the leash, which turns her into a toothy coiled spring, and it hasn't turned into a leash biting habit.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I always carry a ball or a stuffy, sometimes both, to satisfy Galen's need to be mouthy. I ask him to carry a toy when he starts getting mouthy. At this point he loves his ball so much I can use it as a reward. I ask him to sit or to heel, and I give him his ball when he obeys. I used to have a dog that chewed through leashes, so I discourage leash chewing now.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Your trainer's ideas and analysis sound spot on. As I was reading I was thinking about how easy it is for poodles to take over in situations that they think they understand but are not happy (read as frustrated) with. Training at lower distraction levels while making sure things go the way you want rather than him getting his way will help tremendously. This will boost his confidence in himself and his truat and bond with you. I could tell you any number of stories where Lily would make mistakes like sitting crooked, wide or forged during heeling practice on purpose. She didn't like repeating things so if I did too many halts she would make the mistakes so I would correct and she would get a food reward for the fix. With Javelin I never feed after mistake then fix, but rather mistake, fix then do it right the very next time followed by a treat. He is not allowed to con me into giving food.

We had a funny walk at lunchtime (me and both poodles). Since Javelin is taller than Lily he has a longer stride and covers ground faster than she does. I also like walks to be at leisure rather than forced marches so I amble. He does not like to amble, would much rather than do formal heeling through the neighborhood. Well I am not going to trot my way through a lunchtime walk, he can slow down. The first thing he tried to get us moving was to bark at random things including me and Lils. Later he started forging and spinning and barking out in front of us. Every time he amped it up I stopped and had him sit. By the time we got home the forging, spinning and barking had pretty much dried up and I was totally back in charge. I guess it looks like there will be a lot of stopping and sitting this week. Silly boy what makes you think you are incharge!?


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Thanks, Catherine, for your input! Your poodles sound hilarious- but brilliant! Delana warned us that Hudson would outsmart us if we weren't careful.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Elizabeth said:


> Thanks, Catherine, for your input! Your poodles sound hilarious- but brilliant! Delana warned us that Hudson would outsmart us if we weren't careful.


Delana said the same thing to me when baby Javelin was objecting to sleeping in his crate! Believe it or not he won that battle the 2nd weekend when he was at our home and Lily and I were at a trial. He cried so much BF wanting desperately to sleep took him out of the crate and put him on our bed. It took me 2 years to finally get him not to cry endlessly on being in a crate.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

I've been wondering why Hudson's been so slow to pick up voice commands. He always seems to need a hand signal with lure in hand to know what to do. I couldn't understand it - this dog figures out complex puzzles right quick if they have high value treats inside them. Boy, do I feel stupid!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Don't feel stupid! Dogs learn things best with gestures/body language as that is a very important part of intra-specific communication for them. Our words don't have the same ways of meaning things for them and will learn to recognise sounds as having meaning in relations to behaviors more slowly than the gestures we use as orders. Once one of my dogs knows both verbal and gestural orders well I tend to drop the verbal orders as much as possible. Some advanced obedience exercises limit you to a signalled order with no verbal and I want them prepared to respond quickly to those signals.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Well, I wish I had better news about Hudson. He has been biting with intention and today, for the first time, he really broke skin. My trainer has recommended a board-and-train. I am praying he can be rehabilitated.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

This is very sad news indeed. I’m sorry.  What type of board-and-train are they recommending? Have you considered consulting with a board-certified veterinary behaviourist first? Many are doing remote sessions right now.

Here’s one option: Veterinary Behavior & Training Portland, Oregon | Synergy Behavior Solutions


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am really sad to see that news. Since you have a CPDT-KA trainer she may be able to refer you to a good CBCC-KA behaviorist, same organization ccpdt.org


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

She says there are very few positive-only board and train facilities and recommended one she is familiar with. She thinks he's too young for a vet behaviorist who would prescribe meds. She says he is not aggressive but is highly excitable and unable to handle frustration and has learned to deal with it by using his mouth. With all that combined with adolescence, we have an untenable situation. 

She says if we had given him more socialization opportunity and more exercise sooner, this would never have happened, as he has a very nice temperament.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Oof, I'm sorry to hear this, Elizabeth. I feel like your trainer's comment about the "what ifs" of the past was not super sensitive and, I imagine, would be distressful to hear, at least right now. Even if there's truth to it, there's no way to know exactly what differences would have made the difference.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I agree. Not very kind.  It’s possible she said all that to help preserve your perception of Hudson: He’s not a _bad_ dog. Covid just created some very unfortunate circumstances.

I’m going to be hoping and praying this board-and-train gets him back on track. I’m not sure if I agree with what your trainer said about behaviourists skipping straight to meds. That’s not been my experience, at least. But knowing this facility is reward-based is encouraging.

We’re here to offer a shoulder or an ear whenever you need it. Can’t imagine the stress you’re feeling right now.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Thanks to you both. She is frustrated because she advised me to be less cautious and venture out more, and I just didn't and Hudson may have long-lasting fears/limitations because of this. She is protective of the dogs she trains, and I don't fault her for that.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Elizabeth said:


> Thanks to you both. She is frustrated because she advised me to be less cautious and venture out more, and I just didn't and Hudson may have long-lasting fears/limitations because of this. She is protective of the dogs she trains, and I don't fault her for that.


It sounds like she's suggesting the board and train as a way to give him a break from his home routines and an opportunity to break some of these habits for dealing with frustration, excitement and arousal/fear. I think and hope, based on what you've said, that he's still helpable. He's still a young boy!

I guess it's true that most dog problems are people problems, but that doesn't mean these are easy problems to solve. We are still struggling with Oona's mouthiness and building in changes to our routines and responses to help prevent the behavior and to help her learn what is appropriate, and it is very challenging, and very much a work in progress. I feel for you.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Oonapup, I am sorry you're struggling with this too. 

I spoke to the board and train trainer and she seems to run a good program. She thinks that by watching Hudson in a variety of circumstances in public and in and around her house she can reproduce the biting behavior and figure out what causes, increases and diminishes it. She can then identify and get a head start on a behavioral program that satisfies whatever needs Hudson is trying to meet by biting. If I can get my husband on board with something this pricey, I think I will do it.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Elizabeth said:


> Oonapup, I am sorry you're struggling with this too.
> 
> I spoke to the board and train trainer and she seems to run a good program. She thinks that by watching Hudson in a variety of circumstances in public and in and around her house she can reproduce the biting behavior and figure out what causes, increases and diminishes it. She can then identify and get a head start on a behavioral program that satisfies whatever needs Hudson is trying to meet by biting. If I can get my husband on board with something this pricey, I think I will do it.


Good luck with the convincing. I hope you are able to get him on board, this is very important. You probably still have options, but it does sound like getting Hudson a bit of a reset could be very helpful, plus someone who is spending all that time with him will be working with better information and more context than someone who would consult for brief sessions.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

PtP only a veterinary (DVM) behaviorist would be able to prescribe medication. The board and train person sounds good and it also sounds like it would be a good way to hir reset for him. Javelin is pretty mouthy when he is excited too. He is much better than he used to be but it has taken time and clarity from me to him in making it clear that he has to tone that stuff down.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Thanks, Catherine. As your Javelin and my Hudson are relatives, it's good to know that mouthiness is not unusual in these lines and that with persistence, it can be brought under control.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Things had been much better, but then Hudson got frustrated in the yard (I threw a ball I thought he could reach but he couldn't) and he really went at me. A bunch of tiny punctures - 1-2 millimeters - right through my sleeve. I walked away for about 30 seconds, and he seemed calmer, so I disconnected him from his tie-out to take him in, and he resumed jumping and biting, even stealing the treat bag from around my neck. This time I ignored all rules about not taking things from dogs and pulled the bag from his mouth. Instinct told me it would be very bad if he learned that he could overpower me and steal things of high value. I don't know whether that was the right call or not.
My husband isn't ready to make a decision about the board and train, but I think we really have to do it.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> PtP only a veterinary (DVM) behaviorist would be able to prescribe medication.


I wasn’t suggesting meds.

I recommended a veterinary behaviourist as a last step before board-and-train. Elizabeth replied that her trainer was opposed to the idea of a veterinary behaviourist because they’ll skip straight to meds. I said I’m not sure I agree with the opinion that they’ll skip straight to meds, but I’m not doubting that’s been her trainer’s experience.

Did I misspeak somewhere?

Regardless, it sounds like Elizabeth has found a much better board-and-train facility than the ones I’ve heard about. This is good news. 

Elizabeth, Peggy was also extremely mouthy. Frustration and excitement both manifested the same way in early adolescence, and the only solution for us was to turn into boring statues, including no eye contact. It was no fun, but one day we realized it hadn’t happened in weeks...and then months.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

How is his down stay? Down stay was my big management tool with Annie's adolescent jumping/nipping. So, for example if I was going to unhook a leash - downstay, move away if she breaks it. Pick up her ball? Sit stay or down stay. If she couldn't manage that I stopped until she could calm down.
Dog who is sitting can't bite was my logic. 

I do really like the idea of a behaviourist or even the board and train


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Peggy, yes, trainer seemed to think a vet behaviorist would prescribe meds. That could be because my husband asked about them in the context of meds, I guess. He is thinking Hudson might need to be medicated. I think it's clearly way too soon to consider that, especially as his behavior doesn't seem to be too unusual for an adolescent poodle.

I'm sorry you had to go through this with Peggy, but it is comforting to hear that the behavior did end.

I wish the statue thing worked, but Hudson seems to enjoy biting me when I'm still almost as much as when I'm in motion. When I can I escape and move to a place where Hudson can't see me. He seems to consider that a punishment.

For Want of a Poodle, we don't really have a down stay. I am working on sit stay, but it is very slow going. I'm not sure how much it would help when he's in crazy mode, though.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Basically a stay works on improving self control and calm focus. Self control is what he is lacking, so a stay is a good exercise. I also use it as a diagnostic tool. If my dog won't sit or down on command, or breaks a stay, i know we need to stop what we are doing and calm things down. I often throw in a request for a quick sit or a down while we play, just to check what her mental state is like. 

First - have you read/watched any of Sophia Yin's Learn to Earn Program stuff? She was a very well respected veterinary behaviourist and I love how simple this program is. I have never felt the need to implement this formally with Annie, but have used a few parts with great success. Look especially at step 5. 






Dr. Sophia Yin's Profile and History


Dr. Yin was a veterinarian, animal behaviorist, author, and founder of Low Stress Handling®. Her “pet-friendly” techniques for animal handling and behavior modification, many of which she developed herself through the scientific method of research and rigorous testing, are shaping the new standard o




drsophiayin.com





Watch the videos she links to, too!

That being said - here is what I do:

I modelled this partially after a trainer I went to who had border collies. Working line 'most people wouldn't want to live with these dogs' border collies. She told me that what she did with her dogs to tire them out as adolescents was have them do a down stay while she did stuff in the kitchen. These sorts of dogs you cant possibly physically exhaust them and still have a life, so mental work is really important. So I added that to our routine. In the kitchen making lunch to pack? Dog is downstaying. Doing dishes? Downstay. Making dinner? Down stay. At first it is super slow, you end up throwing treats every 5-10s. Then it's maybe 15 s, 30 s... 1 min... 5 min. Soon, every time you are in the kitchen, you have a dog who is doing a quiet, automatic stay in the normal spot you practice, without even being reminded, just hoping for a tiny scrap of chicken to be tossed their way! Stay takes a ton of mental energy to do, and was great for my crazy apartment dwelling adolescent poodle. If Hudson can hold a down for just 1s , he can learn a stay! Even do a sit stay instead of you have to. 

Before I even met this trainer,I loved stays. I had issues with Annie jumping on me and nipping while we played fetch or with her beloved jolly soccer ball or if I ran. Not acceptable. So instead, I asked for a sit. 

At first, I would immediately throw the ball the moment the butt hit the ground. Pretty quickly my dog started volunteering the sit. I got her to stay 1s, 2s, 3s before throwing it. A ball is Annie's highest value reward, so very quickly I could extend it, ask for other behaviours, walk away (even out of sight), etc. 

I do this at the door, too. Annie LOVES walks. I don't like jumpy dogs. I ask for a sit to put on her leash. If she stands I walk away and start the routine over again. Over time, I made her sit longer. Now, sometimes I have her sit stay for my whole getting ready in winter gear routine. I ask for a sit to get out the door and get out the gate and to cross the street. No continuation of walk until I get my nice, polite sit. 

I do this for her dinner bowl, or her Kong as well. 
I stand, ask for a sit. She sits. I lower the bowl. If she stands, I stand back up, ask for a sit again. Lower slowly again to the floor with her sitting the whole time, then give permission to eat. Sometimes when you try this with a new dog, it might take 10 times of raising and lowering the bowl, but the dog quickly learns they can manipulate you into doing things they like - just by sitting! 

Now, if Annie wants something, she asks by sitting and staring at me, which is far nicer than the whining/jumping/nipping she originally tried. Bonus- she has an awesome long duration stay even at a distance which is an important safety tool when she is off leash or if I break something in the house. 

Anyway - that's what I do. Sophia Yin has a far more comprehensive version that is far better explained and laid out! Hope something in this long ramble helps, I have a lot of empathy, dog teeth HURT!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Elizabeth said:


> Peggy, yes, trainer seemed to think a vet behaviorist would prescribe meds. That could be because my husband asked about them in the context of meds, I guess. He is thinking Hudson might need to be medicated. I think it's clearly way too soon to consider that, especially as his behavior doesn't seem to be too unusual for an adolescent poodle.
> 
> I'm sorry you had to go through this with Peggy, but it is comforting to hear that the behavior did end.
> 
> I wish the statue thing worked, but Hudson seems to enjoy biting me when I'm still almost as much as when I'm in motion. When I can I escape and move to a place where Hudson can't see me. He seems to consider that a punishment.


I really feel for you. It’s so hard to say if this is normal adolescent stuff or if there’s something else going on. But even if it’s technically normal, it’s still no fun. And it’s especially alarming if your last dog had a softer temperament.

Something like a firm “NO!” would have caused my last girl to crumple. Doing that same thing to puppy Peggy would have resulted in hysterics: Snapping. Barking. Jumping. Tugging. I remember the sight of my sleeve in her teeth, stretching impossibly far. I remember literally calling my husband for help because I couldn’t tell if she was playing or attacking me!

Then again, I also remember my toddler niece looking like she was going to kill her new baby sister. She—like Peggy—grew out of it. (Thank goodness. Lol.)

I’m forever grateful to someone on Poodle Forum who advised me to stop fighting Peggy’s low impulse control and just meet her where she was. For example, she said no more asking for long sits waiting for me to toss a toy. I thought I was building impulse control by doing this, when in fact I was preventing any progress by antagonizing her. Total lightbulb moment. What worked with my last girl wasn’t going to work with Peggy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So although I continued asking for polite behaviour, I asked for it in the tiniest increments. With the sit/toy situation, I would literally toss it the _moment_ her bum touched the ground. If she was demand barking, I rewarded her the _moment_ she went silent. If she started air snapping in frustration, I resumed play the _moment_ she stopped. It went against all my training instincts.....and it worked. Suddenly I was working with the dog who was in front of me, rather than the dog I wished she would be.

Not saying any of this applies in your boy’s case, but I want you to know how much better it got once we started doing the right thing for Peggy. I believe the same will happen once you figure out what that “right thing” is for Hudson.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> At first, I would immediately throw the ball the moment the butt hit the ground. Pretty quickly my dog started volunteering the sit. I got her to stay 1s, 2s, 3s before throwing it. A ball is Annie's highest value reward, so very quickly I could extend it, ask for other behaviours, walk away (even out of sight), etc.


This is the short version of my rambling post. Lol. @For Want of Poodle knows what she’s talking about. @Raindrops, too, was a huge help to me. We’re so lucky to have all these amazing resources at our fingertips.  And even when we can’t help, we can listen. That’s often just as valuable.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

I thank both of you very much for your advice and also for your support when I am feeling as if I am at the end of my rope. I am going to practice a sit stay while my husband cooks tonight, and I will watch the Sophia Yin videos.

Peggy (I guess you are properly Peggy's person and not Peggy herself  ), it had never occurred to me to just accept that Hudson's impulse control is where it is and not necessarily think that this needs to be fixed, stat. Maybe I do need to see what he's capable of and not try to stretch much further for now.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Elizabeth said:


> I thank both of you very much for your advice and also for your support when I am feeling as if I am at the end of my rope. I am going to practice a sit stay while my husband cooks tonight, and I will watch the Sophia Yin videos.
> 
> Peggy (I guess you are properly Peggy's person and not Peggy herself  ), it had never occurred to me to just accept that Hudson's impulse control is where it is and not necessarily think that this needs to be fixed, stat. Maybe I do need to see what he's capable of and not try to stretch much further for now.


Haha! Yes, technically I am Peggy’s person. My name is Robin. 

I wish I could meet Hudson, so I could tell you if he’s as much like Peggy as he seems from your descriptions. If he is, you have a wonderful adult poodle in there—somewhere—just waiting to shine. I understand males can take even longer to mature than their female counterparts. And if he truly lacks bite inhibition, that’s a separate issue. But the fierce communication of needs....independent streak.....abysmal impulse control.... All of that sounds like puppy Peggy.

Did you know we consulted with an “aggression specialist” when she was only 9 weeks old? The trainer our vet recommended said she couldn’t meet with us _in good conscience_, and simply referred us on. I still feel sick at the thought of those early days.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Nice to meet you, Robin 

An aggression specialist? Oh dear. The Peggy you describe here is the furthest thing from aggressive - a lovely dog. It sounds as if you were told things were much worse than they actually were.

It's funny - Hudson is as sweet as a lamb when he's not amped up. You'd never think him capable of such apparent ferocity. He's undisciplined and barking all over the place, but very friendly and sweet. He does not have any particular desire to please, though. Our trainer compares him to a frat boy. Well, they aren't always so sweet and I was always very suspicious of them, so maybe that's not quite right, but Hudson is social, boisterous and a one-dog 24 hour party, so he's alike in some ways.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

PtP I made the comment about meds in response to your suggestion of a veterinary behaviorist in general terms not as a criticism of what you had said. I always keep in mind that we are writing to the world and sometimes to emphasise a thought I frame my point as a reply to a particular person. Please don't take a post like that personally.

Aggression specialist, what's that? Please read that with my intended sarcasm... Any trainer worth their salt should be able to call themselves a person capable of dealing with aggression issues. Most people who call private trainers because their dog does at least one behavior they think of as a problems. Right now I am working with a dog who has essentially no recall. I recently did one session with a golden retriever whose adoptive people considered aggressive. After that one session just before our next scheduled session I got an email that essentially fired me in favor of a person who specializes in aggression. I had not found the dog to be at all aggressive but instead at 2+ years of age still acting much as Peggy and Judson and Javelin for that matter tended to act on impulse without thinking in ways that were very annnoying and that needed impulse control training to fix, not a jerk with an ecollar zapping the dog into a state of learned helplessnes which I think is what many aggression specialists may head for when patient teaching of focused attention and impulse control is what is required.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> Aggression specialist, what's that? Please read that with my intended sarcasm...


Lol. I know. It was a terrible phone call. Luckily, I made some wonderful training contacts after that, who actually took the time to assess Peggy before passing judgment. Plus, I joined Poodle Forum.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I apologize for getting weeks behind in my reading and responses in Poodle Forum.

Elizabeth? I am having to admit that there was a period early on where I almost turned my Spoo over to a 'Dog Training Boot Camp'! I had spent 9 months studying and searching for either a young poodle up to two years, or a puppy from excellent breeding that could become my Service Dog. 

I got him at 13 weeks on a camping trip in California (long story And we got off to an awesome start with an amazingly gentle private trainer (basically training me!) for the first couple of weeks, and then off to a 4 day Service Dog Convention where there was another awesome trainer. Trainers were amazed at how calm he was, how fast he learned, etc. And then started home from California to Michigan.

Unfortunately my tiny trailer was crashed into and totalled on a 6 lane highway in Colorado. Both my baby Spoo and I were traumatized. Training him became very difficult, and when we finally got home, I was not able to find a kind and gentle trainer, and began to think they couldn't help at this point anyway. He had gotten very uncontrollable, nippy, etc. I made a big mistake and hired someone who called himself a 'dog whisperer'. Well he used aversive methods with chain collars, prong collars, lots of loud 'NO' commands, etc.

My once amazing puppy became awful. That was when I almost caved and went the boot camp route. I wish I had saved that man's name and contact information. When I explained to him what had happened, and that I had wanted my Spoo to become a Service Dog, he told me Not to bring my dog to him! He said he worked with really aggressive dogs, and used not only what my Spoo had reacted to badly, but also shock collars and other methods, and if I wanted my dog to become a Service dog that he really wouldn't recommend it. If I still had his contacts I would be calling to thank him! Because I ended up with the most amazingly calm and well trained Service Dog

The very next week I ran into a dog behaviorist at a psychology presentation at the University. She was $80 per hour back then 11 years ago, which was way out of my budget, but I hired her. It only took a few hours. And then entered one of her classes. She used my Spoo to demonstrate to the other students! He learned so fast. She would probably be more like $150/hr today. I did not have access to the kind of training videos there are now. Did you watch the Sophia Yin videos and related ones recommended by For Want of Poodle above?

I hope you will follow the suggestions here It takes lots of patience to end up with an amazing dog, and looking back I am so grateful that I was a widow and could make my own decisions. And, I was the only handler. It is much more complicated if others in your home are interacting with the dog and perhaps reinforcing the wrong things, and having a say in training and costs.

Apologies, this has gotten way too long! Sending you and your wonderful dog lots of love and encouragement


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Kontiki - that crash sounds awful for you and your poodle pup. . I'm glad you were able to get on track with a behaviorist! 
I'd googled Dr. Yin and the Earn to Learn program and came upon summaries far less detailed than what For Want of a Poodle posted above. Your post prompted me to go back to her links and I'm so glad I did! I can say that things have gotten slightly better in the house, but in the yard Hudson remains a wild beast. He's not drawing blood, though, possibly because he doesn't have many teeth at the moment.

The place we're contemplating sending Hudson is force free, in a private home and recommended by our trainer. We have an appointment to go look at it in a couple of weeks. You mention the problem of inconsistency with 2 handlers and that's part of why I want to do the board and train. It may be an issue even afterwards but I think having at least a foundation will help. If my husband sees results from the board and train's methods, I think he'll also be more motivated to continue them.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

This is just a mini rant because I am discouraged. Also disappointed in myself because lately I just haven't done what I need to do and it shows. Today I thought I had Hudson well in hand in the yard. He'd been fairly good with commands including stays, and we were enjoying the lovely day, which I took off from work because we are going to see the board and train this afternoon. He amped way up super fast and grabbed onto my arms, growling. Any time I moved a muscle he seized a new body part. My arms were dripping with blood. No punctures, fortunately - tiny patches of skin just tore at the surface. I have no idea how to exercise this dog without being eaten alive. He doesn't do this in the house, but he can't spend all his time inside.

Oh, and he started eating his own poop today.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Are these your psoriasis patches that are bleeding? If not, a dog that tears off skin and leaves you “dripping with blood” should not be in your home.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Elizabeth said:


> Oh, and he started eating his own poop today.


What does he eat for snacks, meals, and training treats? Poor gut health can cause emotional disturbances—and poop-eating—so his diet may need a tweak. Or maybe he’s just frustrated. I can’t recall what his daily routine looks like, but perhaps this needs a tweak, too.

I’m so sorry you’re having such a hard time with Hudson, @Elizabeth.  I wish I could steal him away and give you a break for a few days.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

I'm sorry to hear you're struggling and that it gets this bad. I definitely think Hudson can use extra help. Let us know how the visit to the board and train goes. Is he equally out of control biting with your husband?


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Oh no Elizabeth. That is quite frightening! Not healthy for either of you at all. I am hoping the board and train is starting soon! Scary.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Meh, it's hard to tell if the broken skin areas are psoriasis patches or not because the patches are small and everywhere on my forearms. I tend to think not, though  
I do have super-thin skin and Hudson just tore bits of the very top layer that's as thin as tissue paper. I am sure I made it sound far worse than it was, as I was quite emotional and discouraged when I posted.

Hudson eats a decent food - Fromm Gold for large breed puppies. I will try to prevent him from gaining access to his poop in the future. I'm not sure I can prevent him from accessing deer poop, though. Our yard seems to be positioned on a major deer thruway. 

We visited the board and train today. There's one major problem, though. They need to know that Hudson can sleep in a crate without freaking out, and he hasn't been confined to his crate in a very long time. They want us to try it again and place him in his crate for an hour or so at random times during the day, and if that works out, give them a call in a week or so to schedule boarding. So I don't know when he'll actually go there.

Hudson is locked in his crate right now, next to a delicious stuffed Kong. He's lying peacefully next to the Kong but is not touching it. Ugh!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

As long as he is quiet in the crate I woudn't assign much meaning to him leaving the kong alone. I am sure you can get him to be fine with crating. It actually is probably for the good yo have him be able to settle in the crate.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Thanks, Catherine. I hope you're right. We'll see how it goes overnight, when I'm not within sight of him. He does settle better in general when he can see me through the glass sliding doors.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Don't worry if he needs a bit of tough love on this.


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