# Fired my dog walker for using a choke collar...



## Lee (Feb 15, 2012)

Seeking opinions on this scenario I recently faced; I rescued a mini poodle (named Sammy) from the shelter 9 months ago--smartest move I've ever made:

Recently I was home when our dog walker came to pick Sammy up, and he used a metal chain choke collar on him. I asked him not to use a choke collar on Sammy, and he promised not to do so again. I was disturbed that he'd be so presumptuous--when he first started walking Sammy he was in a harness. When he later got better on the leash, I asked the dog walker to use his flat collar instead. He agreed, and I told him to let me know if he had any problems with it and we could start using the harness again.

I fired the dog walker a few days later after I was able to identify and hire someone new (with whom I shared the story, and my expectations).

The dog walker I fired just sent me a letter about his many years of caring for animals, how he felt it was unfair that I fired him, and how he never used the choke collar again after I caught him and told him not to do it. He mentioned that he uses the choke collars on other small dogs, and he clearly thinks I overreacted.

The question: did I do the right thing in firing the guy? Was I overly harsh? I chose positive training for Sammy, and from everything I've seen choke collars are controversial. The dog walker in question is in fact experienced (probably too old school is my guess), but he is NOT a certified professional dog trainer. And of course-- I don't appreciate anyone using a tool like a choke collar on my dog without my permission (which I obviously would not give). To me this is a matter of communication and trust. Your opinion on this matter would be most appreciated! Thank you!


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## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

I think you did the right thing. He was your employee, and he didn't do the job the way you wanted it done. I wouldn't want a choke collar on any of my dogs. The were routinuely used in training classes many years ago, but I think we've developed better ways of doing things.


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## Andi (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm not sure. 

In my mind, if you were really angry about the choke collar you would have fired him on the spot, but you took the reasonable route and discussed it with the walker, and he agreed to change his behaviour to do things your way (as he should). Yet a few days later you fired him even though you had resolved the situation. 

People tend to assume others are like them, like if you like tomatoes you presume everyone likes them unless told otherwise. He probably did the same thing with the choke, he thinks its fine so he probably presumes all others do as well unless told otherwise. It probably wasn't the best move of him to use different equipment without checking with you, but once corrected he didn't do it again so I think in that way it was perhaps a bit rough to fire him, but if you no longer felt comfortable with him there isn't much else you could do.


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

We use cheap, noose style leases at work and I NEVER assume a client's collar is any safer. This is mostly because Ive seen dozens of dogs slip their flat collars and escape. If I were a dog walker and especially if I were walking multiple dogs, I would want either a harness or noose on every dog, for their safety as well as the safety of the other dogs I was walking.


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## Lee (Feb 15, 2012)

Thanks! I wanted to fire him on the spot, but needed his service until I found another due to my job--


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## supysmom (Oct 10, 2011)

you are certainly in your right to fire him. you dont really even need a reason. however, I do see his side. you asked him not to do it, he didnt do it again, you still fired him. you did not give him an opportunity to make you happy.
I would not continue any correspondence with him. your reasons were given, you owe him no more ( assuming you paid in full for the service he did give). it is on him now to learn from this experience. when you assume the responsibility of caring for someone else property, pet, child etc. you need to know what the expectations are. if they are not clear in the beginning, you need to clarify or run the risk of not being asked to repeat the service. dont beat yourself up over it. do make sure you are very clear with your expectations of the new walker. and be open to them if they do come to you. I have dealt with many different personality types. I dont agree with them all. mostly I adjust to them because that is the service industry I am in. sometimes it is best for all to sever the relationship.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Well, I feel like I could write a How To (or How Not To) hire a dogwalker. You are absolutely correct -- you did not hire a trainer -- you hired someone to take your poodle outside at a specific time (or not), walk them, etc., and if he had any questions or concerns or wanted to use something different than your instruction advised, he should ask you. I agree you are absolutely correct, and best to find someone who respects your role as owner, etc. I know I would be furious if I found out that a walker had decided to use a DIFFERENT collar than I instructed -- especially a choke collar, which I would never use anyway.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

I think you overreacted. As others have stated he never used the offending collar after you asked him not too, and was not right to fire him after he did as you asked. Worse that you waited a few days as well.. letting him work for you after regardless of the reason was like forgiving him. You should have stated that no choke or prong collars be used etc, when he first started working for you.

I personally use choke collars, my girls are happy and outgoing.. it doesnt phase them. Hell I can put a collar on my toy that is twice as big as needed and she still follows me around.. prob why she got her CGC. BUT I find slip collars and leashes are safer while walking a dog(not full time collar), because they cant slip out of them and run away, or get smashed by a car. Which is why at work we are required to use slip leads regardless of leashes on the pet just in case they slip out of their outfit.. I have seen dogs slip out of harnesses too.

I guess its neither here nor there since you already fired him. Your choice but you should have wanted him gone the second he used the choker or forgiven him and given him a second chance.. which you did both lol! The fact you let him work for you a few more days looks bad on you more than the reason why IMO. Good luck with the other walker.


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

The thought of someone using a choke collar on a small dog is appalling to me. Their trachea could be damaged so easily with one quick jerk on the thing. 

If I had found out someone had used a choke collar on one of my dogs, they would still be in the hospital. 

I only walk them in a harness.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Hmm, tough situation. I would be upset if I found out that my dog walker was using different equipment then we had agreed on, so I'm with you there; in fact, its one of the reasons I do all my own walking and don't board my dogs. That way, my dogs get treated the way I want them treated. Everyone has a different way\opinion about how to treat dogs.  However, looking at it from the dog walker's perspective, I could see where he felt he was unfairly treated. He did not know you were against choke collars, and when he found out that you were, he discontinued using one as you requested, and probably thought everything was fine between you. You did not indicate to him that you were going to fire him or were looking for another walker. I think that was your mistake: you should have let him know. And honestly, I would have given him another chance. Since I work as a groomer, I'm also providing a service for other people's dogs, and I appreciate it when people give me a second chance if I mess up. We are not mind readers, we can't know what you do and don't like. 

To sum it all up, I do think you treated him a bit unfairly; he did, after all, respect your wishes in the matter and discontinue using a choke collar. I think the whole situation could have been avoided if there had been more communication (like when you found the next walker, you were very clear what your expecations were) and there is blame to be laid at both doorsteps. You should have communicated your wishes better, the walker should have asked before using a choke collar since they ARE so controversial. 

P.S. FunkyPuppy is right, I don't trust owner's equipment...it's safer to use some sort of slip lead (like a choker in woven nylon form)...that way, the dog cannot back out of it and escape. That may have been the walker's reason..who knows.


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## Lee (Feb 15, 2012)

Thanks! I wouldn't hire a dog walker if I didn't have to work, and taking time off while interviewing new ones was not an option for me. So--instructing him not to use the choke, and then firing him after securing a new service was my only option. I thank you for your reply, but I've never had the dog slip his collar, and he is trained to walk on leash, so using a metal chain to constrict his esophagus seems a bit excessive to me...


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I can see both sides... I agree that by not firing him immediately, you gave the impression that all was forgiven.

That being said, people "fire" service people all the time. People change hairdressers, car repair shops, veterinarians, groomers, etc., without ANY explanation and I believe people in those professions understand that it happens... Clients come and go. 

You are well within your rights to change dog-walkers, but instead of saying it was because of the choke chain (since that situation had been remedied) say it was a matter of your level of comfort and trust. The choke chain issue was over, the broken trust remained... Just MHO...


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## Lee (Feb 15, 2012)

Thanks! I think I explained my expectations to the first walker perfectly well--first a harness, then we graduated to a flat collar. I told him he could use the harness again if there was a problem with the flat collar. Never was a choke collar discussed with me; I only found out about it when I saw him use it...

To a previous poster: thanks! Yes of course I paid the dog walker in full when I terminated his services, and I have not mentioned him by name in discussing the situation--I have no interest in negatively impacting his business. My hope is he'll learn better customer service and communication skills from the episode, but judging from the defensive posture in his letter to me I'm thinking that won't happen (oh well)...and yes of course expectations in this regard were clearly articulated to the new dog walker...


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Lee said:


> ...So--instructing him not to use the choke, and then firing him after securing a new service was my only option. I thank you for your reply, but I've never had the dog slip his collar, and he is trained to walk on leash, so using a metal chain to constrict his esophagus seems a bit excessive to me...


 But I think that's where you made your mistake and were unfair: you didn't notify him that you were going to fire him...he thought everything was good.

No, you probably never have had your dog pull out of a collar. However, dogs do behave differently when not with their owners; I've certainly had other people's dogs do it to me, even when said dogs are perfect canines when with their mommy.  And your equipment could break, too. You never know, and that's why we professionals are so careful, because of that off chance that something could happen when the dog is under our care. Working with someone else's pet is a huge liability for us, actually. But I agree, no need to use a choker for that.  And chokers do not constrict the esophagus, unless constant pressure is applied by either the handler or the dog pulling. When the dog doesn't pull, they are in fact looser then a flat buckle collar.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Marcie said:


> The thought of someone using a choke collar on a small dog is appalling to me. Their trachea could be damaged so easily with one quick jerk on the thing.
> 
> If I had found out someone had used a choke collar on one of my dogs, they would still be in the hospital.
> 
> I only walk them in a harness.


If a person is unfamiliar with how to use the device properly it should not be used by that person. A lot of people dont know how to even size the collar properly, let alone how to use it. My 5 lb toy nor 12lb mini have no issues with injury nor discomfort.. they are happy to see their silver necklesses.. My toy hates the gentle leaders/ haltis tho lol. My mini could care less what equipment I use on her as long as she's going somewhere. Also MANY handlers and show people use "chokers" even on toys with no problems.. but then again they know what they are doing . They use what works for both them and the dog.. some can be on the martingale and others have to be on chain collars.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> No, you probably never have had your dog pull out of a collar. However, dogs do behave differently when not with their owners; I've certainly had other people's dogs do it to me, even when said dogs are perfect canines when with their mommy.  And your equipment could break, too. You never know, and that's why we professionals are so careful, because of that off chance that something could happen when the dog is under our care. Working with someone else's pet is a huge liability for us, actually. But I agree, no need to use a choker for that.  And chokers do not constrict the esophagus, unless constant pressure is applied by either the handler or the dog pulling. When the dog doesn't pull, they are in fact looser then a flat buckle collar.


Totally agree!!! My MIL asked me to walk her bichon one day around the block. Well on our way back she decided she wanted to turn around. I tried to convince her come with me and she bucked and slipped her buckle collar!!! My heart sank! I ran after her, and after I caught the pudgy lil thing I tighten her collar.. wasnt going to let it happen again! When she realized wasnt slipping her collar again she happily followed me the rest of the way home. Lesson learned.. ANY dog can and WILL slip its collar or harness for any reason regardless of if they have ever done it before. My MIL was shocked and said she had never done that before lol


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I can understand everyone's opinion here, but still believe if a walker was going to use not just a different collar, but a DIFFERENT TYPE OF COLLAR he should have asked you first -- not wait to see if it would be an issue. I feel pretty strongly about that and would also have let him go --- this comes from someone who has relied heavily on walkers for the last 29 years or so, and understand that many times a walker will not intentionally do something, or allow it to happen, but a good walker will "partner" with you and discuss alternatives or options to what is going on before they decide on their own.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

And, as some of you know, my walker of 15 years I let go when he had a mishap with Sunny -- and he slipped the collar and could have been killed. I don't fault him for letting Sunny slip the collar; I fault him for not being forthright with me and letting me know what was going on, beyond the tidy daily note stating, "Good walk, wet walk, etc." I think if he had done that I would be at an entirely different place with Sunny today.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Choke collars are banned from every training class I have ever attended in the UK, and the potential for damage to the dog's trachea, neck and eyes are well established - I would be furious with anyone who used one on any of my dogs. If your walker was concerned about security, he should have discussed those concerns with you - it would take a great deal to convince me that a well-fitted harness is not more secure than a slip collar, or a soft, wide martingale that cannot overtighten would be another alternative. It might perhaps have been better if you could have terminated the arrangement on the spot, but I can see why that was not possible.

I think I would write a straightforward letter, saying that you accept that you should perhaps have made your expectations clearer at the beginning, but that you do not feel that his thinking on handling dogs aligns with yours. Perhaps it would be sensible for him to make matters like using a collar other than that provided by he owner - or treats other than those provided by the owner, or any form of punishment not specifically sanctioned by he owner - part of a written agreement with his clients, to avoid any misunderstandings in future.


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

You were exactly who I was thinking of when I responded. Bonzai has slipped her collar many times, and I usually just use a slip lead from work on her. She's leash trained as well, and is 95% perfect off lead as well. Doesn't mean I'd trust her on a busy street in a regular collar.


liljaker said:


> And, as some of you know, my walker of 15 years I let go when he had a mishap with Sunny -- and he slipped the collar and could have been killed. I don't fault him for letting Sunny slip the collar; I fault him for not being forthright with me and letting me know what was going on, beyond the tidy daily note stating, "Good walk, wet walk, etc." I think if he had done that I would be at an entirely different place with Sunny today.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I never trust a client's collar. I pick up the dog or put on an extra slip leash. I've walked hundreds and hundreds of dogs as a kennel worker, working at vet clinics, grooming, petsitting, shelter volunteering, etc. The businesses I've worked for have always had us walk dogs with one - or two - slip leashes, never the owner's equipment. I've had a dogs escape from TWO slip leads. I walk naughty dogs that weigh more than I do!

I would be furious if a dog walker changed leash or collar, but, I wouldn't send my dogs out with equipment that could be escapable. Then again, I've never used a dogwalker - I don't trust people around my dogs.


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

If this is the type of choke collar everyone is referring to ....... I'm sure with proper understanding of its use, it would work adequately on any out of control standard, mini or toy poodle. If this isn't the type of choke collar then oops, my bad. 

And as was pointed out earlier, definitely, no one should use one of these collars unless they know exactly what they are doing.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Yes, Sunny now sports a martingale (and yes, some people also call them a choke collar which, of course, it is not) and he has several harnesses, but, ahem......since we have not had the occasion to try it with another walker yet.....they are in his cabinet. I have occasionally walked hiim on the Puppia harness and he actually seems to like it, since it hooks on the back, not near the neck, and it is fabric (stretchy) too. Live and learn. Thank God Sunny is still with me so I can take what I did learn and apply it going forward.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

That's a prong collar.. a bit overkill on a toy or mini... mayyybe if you had a huge unruly std that just took the hulk serum... or some of the crazy doodles I see *eye twitching*.. I might use a prong on like a rottie, mastiff.. maybe a gsd. SOme huge unruly dog that could easily overpower you otherwise.

This is the collar I use on my dogs in 12" and 10" or so in size.

Snake Chain Show Choke Collars Chrome


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

On most flat collars a dog can slip out backwards. They rarely do it with their owners . . but they sometimes want to get away from a handler. 

I don't wonder that a slip leash is a good idea for walkers. I used to use one 'specially for Rally training. Caesar Milan markets a good, gentle one. Spud never minded it.

But a Martingale solves both problems. They will constrict/contract, but only to a point. At that point, a dog cannot slip out backwards . . . and no chance of compression of anything. 

That's what I have on Tonka.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Countryboy said:


> On most flat collars a dog can slip out backwards. They rarely do it with their owners . . but they sometimes want to get away from a handler.
> 
> I don't wonder that a slip leash is a good idea for walkers. I used to use one 'specially for Rally training. Caesar Milan markets a good, gentle one. Spud never minded it.
> 
> ...


Yep, I agree. Sunny's martingale is noticeable in his middle picture on my signature; the blue collar on him on the left is the one he slipped out of. From now on, martingale it is. Also, didn't realize how really think his neck is and when he is scared or startled, they put their head down and if you are moving forward well, he will slip easily.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I should not try to post at work as I go wayyyyyyyyyyyy to fast and make typos. Meant his neck is so THIN....


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I have not read through everything, but, this does not seem fair at all:



> Thanks! I wanted to fire him on the spot, but needed his service until I found another due to my job--


Isn't there an old saying about treating others as you would like to be treated? 
You were his employer, right? You also have an employer, right?


The condition was so unsafe that it merited firing, but it was good enough when his service was needed? 

I have edited this too many times. Please just take a moment to think how you would feel if your employer treated you this way, when you thought all was going just fine.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

It's a tough call. I think he should have continued walking in his harness if you were uncomfortable. Nylon slip noose style collars can sometimes get caught in the hair and stay tight, where the chain style is only tight when the dog is pulling and is loose when the dog is loose on it.

I have a martingale style flat collar for my standards, but I walk them on prongs when their hair is short. Go ahead and criticize me, but I would NEVER use them on smaller dogs, I know what I'm doing with them and how to position them, and I like a calm relaxing walk much better than WHO CAN CHOKE THEMSELVES FIRST! They're fine on flat collars alone, but together, not so much. With their longer hair I have to walk one at a time with flat collars, the toy wears a harness.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I like a calm relaxing walk much better than WHO CAN CHOKE THEMSELVES FIRST!


BWAHAHAHA!!!!  They do seem to do it all in capitals, eh?!! 

Not fun when they're goin' in different directions either! lol


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i walk all my bigger dogs w/ a martingale. the little guys in a harness. if you've ever had a dog slip a collar ... 

with temperance i also use a prong along with and the martingale (i've had prongs come apart and i keep her hair fairly short so it doesn't catch). she isn't strong, but she likes to pull. i've done obedience training with her and she's fairly good, but she still likes to pull. so this makes us have an enjoyable walk. on a prong she just walks on a loose lead.

seelie is starting obedience classes next week. goal: to walk with out pulling on a loose lead w/ a flat buckle collar. when that happens i'll still use a martingale.

why? just takes one second to turn around, back out of a buckle and get hit by a car.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

To reiterate with Sunny, he does walk perfectly, loose lead for me --- he has been getting accustomed to the flexi, however, since it allows him to get a bit more exploring in, etc., but the pulling was never my problem. He naturally walked loose lead, as if he was in the ring --- my issue is that, he is still not confident with everything, spooks easily, etc., and THAT's when he slipped. Walking with me is a breeze....he is constantly looking up at me, at my side, etc., but if a car were to backfire or a FedEx truck slam the metal door, disaster.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I just use flat collars on my two standards, and they've never slipped off. Personally I just hate the idea of a choke chain, but I did use choke chains on my pit and border collies and certainly wouldn't judge anyone who used one correctly. My sister has boxers and she uses the gentle leader easy walk harnesses when her dogs are young and over-enthusiastic on walks--she loves them because the dogs walk beautifully and there's no choking OR pulling involved.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I think the key point is that you have to trust the dog walker to align with your wishes for your dog while YOU AREN'T WATCHING. That's really key for me. 

The incident with the choke collar is distressing in itself, but it would raise all sorts of other red flags for me. You can't provide a steer on every single little element of handling your dog, so you need to be able to trust your dog walker's judgement, to trust that he/she will make the right decisions. 

I think you did the right thing. I would have found another dog walker too. 

I once turned down a potential dogsitter because in our test meeting/walk, the man was tugging my dog into heel position by little yanks on the leash. This dog knows heel very, very well, and would have been happy to heel if he'd been asked in the way he understood, but he was confused by the yanking. I explained, and gave a little discourse on positive training, and the guy was even eager to learn more, but in the end I didn't have the level of trust I needed.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Lee*: I support your decision to do _exactly_ what you did.:nod: No one likes to be fired, and it isn't something pleasant to have to do. But you have the absolute right to dismiss someone with whom you do not feel comfortable, for whatever reason. I think the dog walker's protest about his dismissal being "unfair" is childish and unprofessional. Had he written to say he was disappointed or confused or regretted being terminated, I would think better of him. _Unfair? _It was unfair of _him _to superimpose_ his_ choice of collar on your poodle, even once. I hope he uses this as a lesson going forward to discuss upfront with clients what collar or harness will be used, and if he wishes, to decline to work for those whose choices he does not like. Dogwalkers "get fired" all the time, when their customers' schedules or circumstances change. Too bad his ego was wounded, but better that than your mpoo!


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