# Portuguese Water Dog? Or a Poodle? And..



## terrym2442

Hi all,

I have a PWD and they are a wonderful breed. As adults. As puppies, *they are insane*.

I want to get another dog now that my PWD is two and finally calmed down, but I can't decide on whether to get another PWD (and endure 2 years of insane puppyhood) or to get a poodle.

Can someone tell me the following:

What are poodle puppies like? Are they hyperactive and mouthy like PWDs?

Lastly, if I go with a poodle, are there differences in temperament depending on the size? I am falling in love with the small toys, but also love the grand look of the standards but worry about the size, especially when I have one mid-size already. I'm hoping for a dog that is a lovey- a velcro dog that will become very attached to me. 

I had poodles (small/mini) growing up and it was very hit and miss, personality-wise. 

I have no idea what to do. Help!

Terry in Michigan


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## Lilith

You description of a PWD sounds an awful lot like a poodle to me.

I only have the one poodle, and she is still a puppy (7 months old). She was extremely mouthy when she arrived, but I actually liked that as it gave me ample opportunity to teach her bite-strength inhibition. Now at 7 months she still _wants_ to mouth, but she knows not to (and when we are playing and she accidentally grabs my hand instead of a toy or something - it's the softest, quickest little mistake... just what I wanted!)

She was insane for about 2 hours every evening until she hit about 5 months old. I just knew not to expect to accomplish anything between 6:30-8:30pm or so, because she was just ridiculously hyper. She still has random bouts of the crazies, but it's usually because she hasn't been able to expend enough energy during the day and a bit of fetch outside is the perfect cure. Otherwise, she's an unstoppable athlete outside and a big couch potato inside. At 7 months of age, my standard is far from being 'hyper'. Spirited - definitely (as in, just joyful and very expressive of her glee at certain people or activities), but in a fun, not hyper, way.

I think you're pretty much stuck with a crazy puppyhood no matter what kind of dog you get. And as you mentioned, there is so much variation dog to dog even within breeds that it would be pretty tough to predict... 
Good luck on your decision!


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## Liz

I agree with Lilith - PWDs and poodles are very similar in temperment and behavior. A good friend of mine has two porties, both still under two years old. Her female (Gabi) is only a few weeks older than my Mia, so I've had lots of opportunity to compare the two. It amazes me how similar they are - Mia and Gabi share so many mannerisms, looks, behaviors, and of course, both are whip-smart. The only differences that stand out to me are the physical differences.

I can't comment very knowledgeably about toys, but they are supposed to be bred to the same standards as the spoo, just smaller. So I assume a well-bred toy will behave similarly to a spoo. But that said, there seem to be many poorly bred toys (and minis) out there.


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## fjm

One difference you may find with a smaller poodle is that they tend to mature earlier. Having said that, Poppy did not really hit adolescence until she was nearly 12 months, and at 18 months is still somewhat immature! It is also easier to cope with the zoomies and bouncing in a small dog (although as your PWD will inevitably join in, you may not notice the difference!). But just like a PWD a poodle pup will need exercise, stimulation, and plenty of company.


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## terrym2442

Wow, thanks for your responses. My PWD didn't have just 2 hours of zoomies- she went non-stop all day long. It was nuts. She never napped. She'd come from behind, jump up and take a nip out our behind, even! She got plenty of exercise. Finally, I had an injury (broke my kneecap while walking her) and couldn't care for her and had to put her in doggie day care 5 days/week. For quite a while while I was rehabbing. 

Wouldn't you know it that after running and playing for 12 hrs straight (with a mid day rest and snack), she was still going when she got home? 

I can't handle that again, so was wondering if the poodle pups were maybe just a tad more low key.

Good point about the toys- physically, I think I could manage one better than a larger dog. 

Still, it's a hard decision so I'm open to hearing more plusses and minuses for not only the breed choice, but the size should I go with a poodle. I guess standards aren't a bit calmer than the smaller pups, eh?

Thanks,
Terry


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## Cdnjennga

I have lots of experience with PWDs and much more limited with Poodles. My family has had PWDs since I was 8 years old, while I have had a Miniature Poodle for about 8 months now.

First off, keep in mind variations in the individual temperaments within a breed. It sounds like you have a very high energy PWD. My parents currently have a 5.5 month PWD puppy. She is naughty and chewing everything, but her energy levels are not over the top and all in all I would say she is a pleasure to live with. My mom is taking her to a puppy class that has 2 other PWDs in it, and one of them is crazed while the other is fine. So if you consider getting a PWD again, I would talk closely with your breeder about your needs, particularly with regards to energy level. We have had 5 PWDs in my life and none of them has ever been as energetic as what you're describing.

So bearing that in mind, my 10 month old mini puppy has been a pleasure to live with, but I would say he is fairly high energy. He was quite busy when he was little and I had to hide wires, and keep him in full view most of the time to make sure he wasn't in trouble. Now he has to have a good walk/ play session with other dogs every day, otherwise he becomes a little over the top in the house. I do like his smaller size - he is easy to pick up if I need and takes up less space in my home (I live in a condo) than a PWD. I would say he is actually higher energy at 10 months though than my parents PWD is at 5.5 months, so again, variations in temperament.

Whatever breed you decide on moving forward, I would closely interview breeders, meet the parents (or at least the mom if possible) and make it clear what type of temperament you are wanting. Good luck!


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## CharismaticMillie

I have had 3 standard poodles and neither of them have been particularly crazy as puppies. Millie was probably the most calm. People who have met Millie throughout the past 11 months (she is only 11 months old) can never believe she is a puppy as she is very calm when in the house. Though, when its time to play or go for a walk she sure has more energy than any dog I've ever seen! It's actually funny because people at the dog park often come up to me and say "boy I bet its a handful at your house with those two dogs!" And I always try to explain that both Millie and Henry are extremely calm and well behaved IN the house. They save up their energy for playtime. Also, she is the definition of a velcro dog. If I go in my bathroom to take a shower and don't bring her in the bathroom with me, she sits by my door the entire time acting all offended. Also, wherever I am, she is always napping near me. If I get up and she loses sight of me she wakes up from her nap and darts to find me as quickly as possible. She has to keep her eye on her mommy! 

Henry was a bit stubborn as a pup but not crazy or hyper by any means. Especially as a pup he didn't want to come when called if he was in the backyard, but that is pretty typical for puppies in general. Very loving and velcro dog as well. 

Tony, gosh, that was 13 years ago but from what I remember he was probably a mix of Henry and Millie. Definitely not a particularly crazy puppy by any means.


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## murieics

I don't have any experience with PWDs, and have only had my first mini poodle puppy for a few months, but I agree with everything that everyone else has said so far. Jake is a complete joy to live with most of the time. Every once in a while, he can get a bit overwhelming, but that just means he needs to go in his crate for 1/2 an hour to an hour and take a nap. I find that he's a lot like a toddler- if he's being obnoxious, it means he's tired. 

I had a ton of people tell me that poodles were great because they were calm inside, and got all of their crazies out outside. I wasn't sure that it was possible for there to be a breed of dog that was like that across the board. I figured it must be something that had to be trained. But it doesn't. It's been the craziest thing to me. 

Jake will play fetch inside, and he does run around a little bit inside sometimes, but generally, when we are inside, he is laying down or asleep by my feet. Both at my house and at other people's houses. Now, if he hasn't gotten enough energy out outside, or he gets bored, you do have to watch him, because he WILL entertain himself, and it's pretty much a guarantee that what he entertains himself with will be exactly the opposite of what you would like him to do (and he has learned really quickly that if he brings me a toy and I don't see him, if he brings me a sock I always notice). 

When we are outside- he's a completely different dog. He gets the zoomies. He races around everywhere. It's like he somehow came knowing that outside he's allowed to go absolutely nuts- and he does. As someone mentioned in another thread, this does make training outside very, very difficult (for example, he will loose leash walk like a charm inside- even without a leash- outside, not so much), because he just wants to expend energy when he's outside. 

I do work really hard to make sure he has ample opportunity to get his energy out, but based on what everyone else has said, I was prepared for him to be much more of a challenge energy-wise than he has been. He's almost five months old now, though, and I will say that he is starting to hit adolescence. Over the past few weeks, I've noticed that he has started to get mouthier again (we're working on it), and he also likes to pretend that he doesn't know what you are asking him to do. For example- he knows how to sit. If you have something he wants, he does it immediately. He went through a period where if you asked him to sit, he would just stand there and look at you like you were insane. We practiced sit often, and he eventually got over it. He's going through a stage now where he doesn't like to lay down. So we are doing tons of downs. I can tell adolescence is getting worse now because he "back talks" when you ask him to do something. I give him the down command. He looks at me. He thinks about it. Decides he doesn't want to lay down. Jumps up on my leg. Mouths my hand. Barks. (he does this especially when I have something he wants- like his toy or a treat- he wants it, but doesn't want to do what I ask to get it). I stand there. Eventually, he realizes that I'm not going to give in and he will lay down. 

So overall, while he is energetic, it is managable energy. I know there are a few other people on this board who have poodles that are more high-energy than he is. I would say, though, that since you have a dog already, it should be easier. I say that because the dogs will play together, and that will help to tire both of them out. If Jake has lots of excess energy, we go over to my in-laws house, and he spends a few hours racing around with their beagles. Energy problem solved.


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## terrym2442

Such helpful information from you guys- thanks! I'm still on the fence and it's making me crazy. I have hooked up with a PWD breeder who understands the situationa and who does temperament testing- she claims she usually has 1-2 semi-mellow ones in her litter; but I dunno.

Another question- is it very hard to housetrain a toy? Harder than say, a standard?

Thanks again!
Terry


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## AgilityIG

You discription of your PWD sounds like my Poodle, Vinnie. He never slept as a puppy unless he was kenneled. Otherwise, he was on the go and got into everything. He was very VERY busy. He is much better now, but is still very busy (this is what I asked for from the breeder - I wanted a high drive performance dog and that is what I have and I LOVE LOVE LOVE it).

I have some experience with PWDs - several friends that have them and show in agility, water work, obedience, etc... Of the PWDs I have met, roomed with in hotels, had at my house, etc... none of them were like what you describe with the exception of one that the owner reports was a crazy puppy.


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## terrym2442

LOL, is that Vinny in the pix, here? Flying through the air?
Thankfully, my Harper has calmed down, but it took 2 years. I'm guessing you are also a very active person and it's a good match for you. I'm no longer as active as I used to be, thanks to too many bone fractures, etc. So I really need a dog I can manage.

A toy poodle is beginning to sound like an easier solution, though I am still hoping to hear from others just how difficult it is to housetrain them. Much of what I am finding on the web is frightening!

Here's Harper:


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## fjm

I would say yes, small dogs tend to be harder to housetrain than big dogs. How much of that is down to small bladders, and how much down to the ease with which they can hide away, and greater owner toleration for small puddles in comparison to the rivers larger dogs can produce, I don't know. It may take a little more patience, and rather more frequent trips outside, than needed for your PWD. And, with a tiny puppy, it is MUCH easier when there is not 6+ inches of snow on the ground, and a North East gale blowing!

You may also need to consider the safety issues - a toy puppy is very small, and can be fragile - it may not be up to the rough and tumble of play with a PWD. A miniature might be a better choice, or a young adult toy.


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## JE-UK

I have a mini, and he plays comfortably with dogs the size of a PWD. Not sure a toy would be up for that.

Re activity levels, I found my mini about average for a working breed. I'm a stickler for exercise, so he got a lot as a pup, but at 18 months has settled. Used to be, we'd go for a 10 mile hike and he'd have a quick nap and be ready to go again. Now, he's happy to be a couch potato after.

I found housebreaking a mini very easy, but not sure how representative mine is. 

As a pup, mine was VERY mouthy, we really had to work on that. Not hyperactive though. Daily zoomies, but they don't last long.

Good luck!


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## Sadie Girl

I'm no longer as active as I used to be, thanks to too many bone fractures, etc. So I really need a dog I can manage.

Terry, If I can interject another point: Since you're not as active as you used to be and mention bone fractures, there's another issue with a small dog. I have had small terriers (Australian and Norwich) and they are fine, but if they are glued to you as mine were, they can be a hazard in tripping over them. In younger days, I was willing to do the two-step to avoid stepping on her, but I opted for a spoo this time. I may run into her (and sometimes she runs into me on these icy days!) and I may have to step over her, but I certainly don't find myself tripping on her!

Good luck!


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## terrym2442

All great feedback and helpful points. I guess a lot comes down to the temperament of the individual dog.

Sadie Girl- do you find it easier to manage a larger dog? I can see your point about possibly tripping over a little one, but my concern is not being able to walk a larger dog if they're anything like my last two. They're simply too strong. I have this fear now of tripping again (from being pulled- not so worried about tripping on a small dog) and breaking my kneecap (again) and no longer even walk my dog in the winter due to the ice (she does her zoomies in the backyard). A trainer helped a LOT in showing me how to stop the leash pulling, but again, I'm just not sure what I can take on this time around, knowing how active the PWD will be and wondering how hard a poodle might be during the puppy stages.

I'm still interested in the differences between the 3 sized poodles- temperament wise-if there IS much of a difference.

People are warning me that toys can be loud and nippy. Yes? No? More so than the larger ones?

Still struggling with this decision but find everyone's responses VERY helpful.
Thanks to all!


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## Pamela

I think crate training is so good for the dog and the owners. A lot of people think its mean but the dog really feels safe in there - its like putting a baby to bed in their crib. Ginger didn't mind the crate and as she got older now she dosnt need it. she was very affectionate and cuddly and I played fetch with her right from my bed in my room - it was fun. she is 5 now and still loves to play fetch or catch - inside or out. I agree that the temperament of a dog is not always the breed but the particular dog. good luck!


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## Pamela

one other thing - are PWD's high maintenance for grooming? because poodles are and that may be a consideration too.


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## terrym2442

Hi Pamela,

I agree re: crates. Crazy Harper went ballistic being contained and even a trainer couldn't crack that nut. Yet Harper DOES crate at bedtime without a problem. During the day? No way.

PWDs have a very similar coat to poodles, so yes, they need to be groomed every 6-8 weeks or so. That is a non-issue for me since we already do that for Harper. The two breeds are actually related and look similar, with the PWD being a bit more "square" and muscular and the poodle looking more elegant.


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## neVar

what a bout a mini? I wonder how harper will do playing with a toy. They are SO small and so fragile. That if they got really romping i'd worry about injuries. Just a thought. 

mini's are SMALL but not quite so fragile IME. 

LIke anything i think BREED quality and temperment comes into play. My aussie bitch is high drive high energy. by far the most "over the top" personality out o the litter. The rest are much more mellow. I picked her for that though (Flyball) My old aussie boy? OMG he was still insane at age 8. seriously. There was the time he jumped the fence and chased the polie dog down.... seriously. His breeding? Not good (BYB he was a rescue) 

So when talking to a breeder talk about your wants of personality. Some lines will be more driven then others.


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## terrym2442

I'm beginning to consider a mini, but still...it's also the puppyhood stage that concerns me- when many are just plain nuts and hyper. I know that most dogs calm down by 2. But I can't handle another puppy like my last 2 PWDs. I am talking to breeders of both PWDs and poodles, and man, this is a hard decision. 

Harper is pretty easy going now, activity level-wise. I'm more worried about the new puppy and how I'll handle that stage.


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## bigpoodleperson

Have you thought of rescuing a mini or standard? That way you will know how much energy they need, how they are with other dogs, out of the puppy crazies, etc. We have had a Lot of successful rescue stories on the board lately! I personally would go that route if i were in your shoes and had those concerns. I would go with a specific poodle rescue that had a dog in foster care in a house with other dogs. They will be able to tell you so much more about the dogs personality! Good luck!


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## Locket

hhaha, BPP got to it before me, so sorry for the repeat post.


If you're mostly concerned about the puppy stage, why not adopt an adult dog? 

There are many poodles and poodle mixes in need of homes in shelters and poodle rescue. Most are out of the puppy stage and their personality and energy level are already known. 

If you want to go the breeder route, many breeders hold back show prospects or have dogs returned to them that are past the puppy stage, so you could look around and probably find an older puppy or young adult poodle or PWD that way.


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## terrym2442

Good idea. I am doing some research on rescues but the main concern there is whether one would bond with me velcro-wise, which is the #1 reason why I want to get another dog. Harper bonded with my husband. It's lonely here since I put my velcro down two years ago.

Do adult rescues or breeder dogs bond strongly to a new owner? 

I recently had one bad experience because I initially WAS looking for a rescue. The agency mis-represented the dog I took home (a Cairn), saying it was housetrained, good with dogs, etc etc. The dog was never housetrained and she only got worse the more I worked with her. She also showed some aggression towards my husband and Harper. Not at all the dog they described to me and sadly, I had to return her.

That's why I'm being so cautious now. I don't want to make a mistake again.


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## Locket

In my experience, rescue dogs/rehomed dogs bod just as closely to their new owners as a little puppy. I got one of my poodles at two years old. He had been in a very loving, happy home and was very bonded to his owners. At first, he was reserved and kept to himself, but after a few months, he began to really come out of his shell and now he is very much my shadow and my heart dog. I adore him more than anything. He is the best dog I've ever had.


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## Liz

Just another thought, and sorry if this confuses the issue more, but have you considered a Spanish Water Dog? They're very similar to PWDs in appearance, but from my very limited experience with them, they seem a little more mellow.


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## terrym2442

Locket, that is very encouraging news. Was he housetrained, too, when you got him? How did you find him?


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## Sadie Girl

Terry,
I got Sadie from scouring the Internet. I didn't want to deal with puppydom, although those Arreau Poodle videos have made me regret it just a bit. She was just over 5 when I got her and it took just about 4-6 weeks for her to bond with me. Like you, I won't walk her in the winter time because all the snow and ice here in NW IN are just too hazardous. She does her zoomies in the back yard where I have some privacy fencing, but not all. Obedience is so helpful. She's not too much of a cold weather fan so she's ready to come in after 5-10 minutes. Then her outside zoomie mode gives way to her house manners. Great dog! 

Just start calling breeders but make certain you do your homework and check references in addition to this forum.

Are you upper Michigan?


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## terrym2442

Hi Sadie Girl,

Did you get her from a breeder, then? Or as a rescue? 
It was my hubby's idea to get a puppy, knowing how important it is to me for the dog to bond with me. He's worried an older dog won't bond.

I live just outside of Detroit in the "burbs."

Your situation sounds a lot like mine!


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## terrym2442

Liz- no! I don't know much about Spanish Water Dogs! I should look into those if they are calmer than Porties. But I think they are very large...?

I love Mia's brown face and her puppy cut! She's such a cutie.


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## spoospirit

_I have two standard poodles. I got my first one when he was five months old. He was shy, reserved and kept to himself at first. Eventually, he bonded well with me, and now, at two years of age, he is my heart dog. He was never mouthy and always had good house manners.

My second one was brought home at nine weeks of age. She bonded with me immediately and is a full velcro dog. I often find myself turing in a circle while walking with her because I don't see her, only to find she is directly behind me and turning with me. It's really funny. Makes it awfully hard to photograph her though since she rarely gets away from me. She was a little mouthy but gentle and trained out of it quickly. She liked something to chew on in the house but always had good indoor manners too. 

When I let the two out, they take off like mad men and do their zoomies, bunny hops, twists and turns, jumping and anything else that comes to mind...LOL But when they are done and come into the house, they go right into their inside mode and lay down quietly somewhere. Often, they will lie down on the couch next to my husband or me. 

Billy was very quick to house train. My girl, Taffy, took a bit longer. I used crate training for both. I would suggest crate training for owners of any type of dog.

My sister and I did a lot of research before getting our poodles. We were specifically looking for poodles with a soft nature and that is what we have._


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## Sadie Girl

Sadie came from a breeder who said that she never bred her females more than twice. She said that Sadie would be happiest in a home where she was the only poodle. She seems quite content and the question of bonding never was an issue. That probably varies by the dog's personality. She also has become protective of me and I do have to be cautious with her when repairmen come to the house. Women don't seem to be a perceived threat.


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## terrym2442

Spoospirit-
Your dogs sound wonderful! It's funny how so many people responding here have standards. Hey- where are the toys' moms? I'm curious about the little guys, too!

Spoos- was your breeder local to you? I want a gentle spirit, too!

Terry


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## Skye

I am just reading through this thread, and I agree that adopting a rescue, or a retired mini would be fabulous! I have a rescue pup we got at 6 months; he's 8.5 months now. He has a nice temperament. I walk him around the block, usually twice a day, or let him zoom around the yard on the retractable. Right now, he is going through a stage where he's into everything. But, he is learning things fast, and he needs to be kept busy mentally.

About bonding; my husband had those same concerns. Originally, I wanted a 2-3 year old spayed female. Our pup came along, and even though he was younger than I wanted, and a male, he sounded right for us.

This past weekend, we just picked up a mini that was about 4 years old from another forum member. His name was Romeo, and it really fits. He stole the heart of everyone he met! He seemed to bond with everyone!


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## KalaMama

I have both breeds and in my opinion they are ENTIRELY different. My PWD is also a crazy puppy. My poodles can be hyper for a bit when i come in but the PWD is a gazillion times more extreme in her energy. If your PWD is anything like mine as a puppy, then a standard will be like a piece of cake  No really, both breeds are wonderful but a Poodle is a lot calmer in the house as a puppy. My PWD is 1.5 so I can't testify how she will be as an adult. I would say she requires much more exercise to be happy and calm. PM me if you need any more info on living with a PWD and Poodle


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## spoospirit

terrym2442 said:


> Spoospirit-
> Your dogs sound wonderful! It's funny how so many people responding here have standards. Hey- where are the toys' moms? I'm curious about the little guys, too!
> 
> Spoos- was your breeder local to you? I want a gentle spirit, too!
> 
> Terry


_Sorry Terry. I missed this post as I have been busy with other things after posting. I did get your PM and responded to it._


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## wishpoo

I visited a breeder who was breeding standards for long time and than "tried" toys also, but after just couple of years stopped although they got Ch titles . She said that they have "different mind-set" than standard and that they are more active and more clingy and more vocal. Maybe her line was like that - I do not know :noidea: 
The fact is that of 2 hours I spent there , small guys were running and barking non-stop and standards did not let a peep until somebody rung the doorbell, and even than it was 2 big "woofs" and checking the door and it was it.


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## terrym2442

Gosh almighty. So much wonderful information. I cannot belive how helpful people here are.

I'm thinking...is there such thing as a dog buyer coach? Cuz I am now completely overwhelmed and have no idea which way to go with all this. I guess that's a good problem, but still...I have no idea what to do!

Terry


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## Lilith

Ha! It's so difficult, I know! I agonized and agonized over what kind of dog to get. Had 3 or 4 potential dogs lined up and was talking extensively with the breeders/owners, and - I hate to say this - but I went with the one I could drive to instead of having it flown to me. Terrible reason. I'd like to say "go with the one that just _feels right_." But... well... It worked out so _spectacularly_ well for me, though. I never thought I could love a dog so much. 

Good luck!


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## fjm

I have one of the "little guys"! Poppy was 3.5 months when I got her. Although she was raised in the house, she did not have a lot of socialisation with strangers, which may account for her being just a little more nervous than Sophy. We worked hard on gentle, gradual socialisation, and she is much, much better. She is very, very attached to me - which can make it difficult if I need to leave her with anyone else. She is now 18 months, and a very relaxed little dog in the house, as long as she gets enough exercise out of it! She and Sophy do play together, but most of the time they are either asleep (on my lap as I type), or settled with a chew toy. They do bark, but not excessively and will stop on command. 

As with any dog, much of it comes down to how they are raised and trained - I know people who were afraid to let other dogs approach their tiny pup, and swept her up every time one came near - result a dog reactive Yorkie. The world can look very scary when your eyes are just a few inches from the floor, and I think small pups need a lot of careful socialisation to help them learn what is safe and what is not, without being hurt or frightened in the process. It is also essential for them to learn good canine communication skills - a small dog that does not know how to use calming signals is going to be at considerable risk!

I suspect that an adult's dog ability to bond comes from its early experience with humans. If a dog has had a close relationship with one or more humans, he or she will bond more easily as an adult. It seems to be the puppy farm breeding dogs, who have never had that experience, that often take longer to learn to relax around people.


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## terrym2442

Lilith and fjm,

Thanks for your info/feedback. I guess I don't feel so bad about spending this much time deciding/researching. The right one will come along. FJM- how small is Poppy?


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## fjm

She is top end for a UK toy - close to 11 inches - which would make her oversized for a US toy. She weighs just over 4 kilos, which is just under 9 pounds. It's a good size - small enough to be picked up easily, to fit comfortably into a canvas crate in the back of the car, and to dunk paws in a washing up bowl, but big enough to be reasonably safe out and about. She is an athletic little dog - we have recently got into agility, which she loves, and I would love to try scent work with both of them. 

I love my tinies, but I do sometimes crave a larger dog. We met a lovely leggy miniature a few weeks ago - almost a small standard in size - that I really fell in love with.


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## terrym2442

Sweet- your dogs are beautiful. So hey, why not get a third? : )


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## dogdragoness

I know this is kind of an old thread but I am glad I found this, because I am currently looking at both the poodle and the PWD, and what might make me decide to go PWD is that I have heard from many people (poodle owners included) that poodles can be picky eaters (where PWD owners say their dogs are quite the opposite) and that they have to rotate foods often, I can't do this, since my current boy has a really sensitive stomach, and takes for ever to "get used" to a food, and switching all the time would cause his little tummy to be very upset 

Is this true? are all poodles picky? or is this just the smaller varieties?


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## MiniPoo

I have had both mini poodles and also Portuguese Water Dogs. Because of my hubby's allergies, we have to have dogs that do not shed. My mini poodle in the 90's was from a backyard breeder and had several health issues and died at 4-1/2 years. So I switched over to PWDs. I have had 3 PWDs since then, currently have 2 PWDs, one curly (Phoenix) and one wavy (Neeka).

Of the 3 PWDs I have had, one has been a picky eater and it turned out that he had Addison's disease. My current two have good appetites although Neeka has a mild case of Addison's. 

Because I am older, and 2 out of 3 of my PWDs had Addisons, I wanted a smaller dog. So I switched back to mini poodles but made sure I was very careful to get the dog from a good breeder this time.

My mini poodle Dakota has a very very good appetite and at a little over a year, he is very healthy.

I do not think you can generalize so much about the appetites of either poodles or PWDs. I might say that PWDs have a high incident of Addisons based on my limited experience of 3 PWDs. But I think if you get a poodle from a breeder who does as much testing as possible and does some performance sports (agility, obedience), what you will get is a high energy dog that can easily keep up with your current dogs and will most likely have a very good appetite to go with it.

I would definitely not say all poodles are picky. YOU need to be picky about which breeder you get your dog from.


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## zooeysmom

dogdragoness said:


> Is this true? are all poodles picky? or is this just the smaller varieties?


My poodle is not picky at all! However, she is a very polite eater, not a pushy chowhound like our golden retriever.


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## JudyD

Neither of my standards is the least bit picky. They'll eat anything I give them. Cast iron stomachs.


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## Streetcar

My oversize Toy has a voracious appetite for anything anytime, well, maybe not for lettuce and celery. But he does like the kitty grass I buy for my cat.


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## FireStorm

You know, for the first part of Hans's life I really thought he was picky, but I think the biggest difference is that he just won't overeat. Dogs I've had in the past would eat themselves sick if they had the chance, but Hans stops when he's had enough. If we have a lazy day, or he's had some sort of extra snack, he doesn't eat as much or he skips a meal. 

Also, poodles are naturally quite thin, so it's easy to worry that they aren't eating enough. However, my vet keeps assuring me that Hans is a healthy weight, and if he doesn't finish his food every now and then he'll be fine (he's eating a good quality food and has a clean bill of health so it's not an issue with food quality or health problems). So, my experience has been similar to zooeysmom's. It just might be a bit of an adjustment, if you are used to a voracious eater and/or a stockier breed. 

I also think it's worth keeping in mind that all the poodles who happily eat what they're fed don't get discussed nearly as much as the picky, difficult ones.


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## Viking Queen

FireStorm said:


> You know, for the first part of Hans's life I really thought he was picky, but I think the biggest difference is that he just won't overeat. Dogs I've had in the past would eat themselves sick if they had the chance, but Hans stops when he's had enough. If we have a lazy day, or he's had some sort of extra snack, he doesn't eat as much or he skips a meal.
> 
> Also, poodles are naturally quite thin, so it's easy to worry that they aren't eating enough. However, my vet keeps assuring me that Hans is a healthy weight, and if he doesn't finish his food every now and then he'll be fine (he's eating a good quality food and has a clean bill of health so it's not an issue with food quality or health problems). So, my experience has been similar to zooeysmom's. It just might be a bit of an adjustment, if you are used to a voracious eater and/or a stockier breed.
> 
> I also think it's worth keeping in mind that all the poodles who happily eat what they're fed don't get discussed nearly as much as the picky, difficult ones.


I would have to agree that Iris is much like Hans. She self regulates on quantity of food and likes good quality food. Not too keen on veggies, but there are some that she will eat. Quite unlike my beagles I have had who will hoover up anything and everything, given a chance......regardless of whether they have had thwir usual meals or not. They would eat themselves sick, given the opportunity. Not my Spoo. I do prefer her more careful eating habits. VQ


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## Sadie Girl

*Not picky*

My 11year old standard isn't the least bit picky about her food. Has a fairly cast iron stomach as well as evidenced by the five partially thawed kielbasa (sausages) that she devoured off the counter. Ive adapted to her counter surfing now. Then there was the pound of Godiva chocolates that she ate one Christmas Eve while I was at church! Someone didn't tell me what was in the presents they had sent. She survived that as well, but chocolates are off limits for both of us.


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## aasteapots

I have a toy and a standard and they will eat ANYTHING! I MEAN ANYTHING you give them. Meat,fruit, veggies, kibble, canned food,treats of any kind. The only thing my toy will snub her nose at is the cheap type of dog biscuit( think milk-bone) but the standard will eat them!


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## Locket

The three poodles in my life have all been easy feeders, and the fosters I've had have also been easy, though it can take some convincing sometimes. 

I think it's more common to "create" a picky eater than it is for a dog to be born a picky eater.


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## kayla_baxter

I've had two minis, the first can be a little picky with kibble but that's because she was raw fed initially as a puppy and obviously prefers that to kibble, but a few days of tough love and she was back to normal eating. The second is a garbage disposal. He's raw fed, but gets just as excited if there's plain dry kibble in his bowl. He'll eat anything and his stomach tolerates anything. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dogdragoness

Thank you all for all the wonderful info, I am sorry if my question might have offended anyone, I assure you all that was not my intention.

My hubby's dog (a rescued cattle dog mix, pictured below in my siggy) is a very picky eater, so I was trying to avoid having two dogs like that in the house, LOL. My boy however is a hoover and will eat anything, I can even put any pills he might have to get into his food and he will hoover them down right along with his food .

Aside from that, training and temperament wise, how to PWD and poodles differ? I have been told (and I mean no offense by this, this is merely with other dog people have said to me) that PWD typically have more drive than poodles, is this true? 

Also Addison's disease, I have read that PWD have a higher instance of Addison's than any size of poodle, even spoos. Is this also true?


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## Locket

The PWDs I've met and had in daycare are a lot of dog! They're rough, tough, very confident, and have endless energy. They can be really vocal too. I would say that overall PWDs have more drive than poodles, but you can find poodle lines with good drive too.

I find poodles are a bit more "brainy" generally. Not that PWDs aren't smart, I just find they can be more act first, think second. Poodles, at least in my experience, are very calculating, and definitely think things through before just throwing themselves off of something or into to something. 
I also think poodles are softer temperamentally.


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## FireStorm

I have never had or known any PWD, but I know there's at least one member here who has both (MiniPoo), so hopefully she'll chime in. From what I've heard, the temperaments of the two breeds are pretty similar. 

As for poodle drive, I think it varies quite a bit from dog to dog and from bloodline to bloodline. Hans is very high drive because we wanted that...he reminds me a bit of some of the Malinois I've known, but more retriever-y. On the other hand, his littermate is a service dog, and much more mellow. I do think some poodle breeders who are breeding specifically for hunting or performance probably have higher drive dogs overall.


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## dogdragoness

I have heard from people who have had PWD, poodles and breeds like aussies, that PWD are more like aussies, only non-shedding. My current dog is like that, he is very rough, tough confident (but friendly), and has endless energy and VERY mouthy even now at 18 months LOL.

Our female OTOH, is very soft, submissive, and low energy and he bullies her to the point where they have to be separated, so I have him in mind as well when looking for next dog as much as myself, I want our next dog to be a god fit for him just as much as me.


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## MiniPoo

PWDs are similar in size to a Standard Poodle but they have a longer back like a lab. If you are looking for a smaller dog than a Standard Poodle, then the PWDs are not for you. That is something you will have to decide.

As far as temperament, 2 of my 3 PWDs were laid back and very mild mannered but playful dogs. So when I got my 3rd PWD, I went looking for a smaller PWD (Neeka is about 40 lbs) and I wanted a healthy one. Other than that, I expected Neeka to be the same laid back dog as the first 2 PWDs. I was very very wrong.

The first 2 PWDs came from show breeder who did not do a lot of performance sports (other than swimming, which PWDs are really good for). But Neeka came from a performance breeder who bred drivey dogs. I did not realize that when I got her. She bit my older dogs and was so so energetic that I thought she was too much for us and I wanted to give her back to the breeder. My hubby said he would leave me and take Neeka with him. So I had to make it work. I tethered her to me to keep the other dogs safe. I made her eat last while she watched them eat. We took her to obedience classes. And she got older. By one year of age, she was safe to be loose in the house with the other dogs. She is a sweet, loving dog and I am extremely glad we kept her.

Now for poodles. My first mini poodle was very playful and sweet and never drove me crazy. I had hoped when I got Dakota he would be the same. Wrong again. I had chosen another performance breeder because I felt she had really healthy dogs. Dakota was as drivey as Neeka and all the techniques I learned with Neeka as a puppy I had to re-use for Dakota. Again, at almost one year of age, things improved immensely and he is now pretty safe to be around the older dogs. I still crate him when I leave the house and let the PWDs go free, just as a precaution. Dakota is used to it and doesn't seem to mind.

I would say comparing Dakota to Neeka, both from performance breeders, that Dakota has more drive than Neeka. He is a retrieving maniac, and he was a lot less energetic than his brother that I almost took.

So when comparing PWDs to poodle, decide which size you want. If you want smaller than a standard, then a PWD is probably not right for you. PWDs are very strong dogs as are Standard Poodles. A high energy PWD or Standard Poodle is not for the faint of heart. It is easier to handle a high energy small dog that can't pull you off your feet or head butt you onto the floor.

Then if you WANT a drivey, energetic dog to play with your Aussie, whichever breed you choose, look for a performance breeder. Then expect to have your hands full for the first year.

Also, have baby gates on hand and use a leash if you find the puppy starts to bully your low energy heeler mix. It is just hard for the first 8-10 months and then your puppy will mature enough to be better behaved around Josefina.

I hope this helps.


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## MiniPoo

dogdragoness said:


> Also Addison's disease, I have read that PWD have a higher instance of Addison's than any size of poodle, even spoos. Is this also true?


It is hard to say if Addison's is more common in PWDs than poodles. Two of my 3 PWDs had Addisons, one with a severe case and the other mild.

On the PF, there are several standard poodles that have been diagnosed with Addison's.

Just from my personal experience, I would say Addison's was high in PWDs.

I went to PWDs after my mini poodle in the 90's had a severe case of epilepsy, which is not a frequent problem in PWDs. But I do love poodles and wanted the smaller sized poodle, so I took a chance again with them and just made sure I was careful about which breeder I chose.

Since generalizations about poodles and PWDs are just that: generalizations. It is the breeder and what type of dogs she breeds that is really important. You need to ask the breeder what type of dogs she produces: laid back or high energy? Does she do performance sports? Has there been any history of Addison's or epilepsy in her dogs?

Both PWDs and poodles are great breeds. So pick your size and then pick a good breeder for what you want.


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## Lexigirl

I have had 2 tpoos, one tpoo mix, and one spoo, our current dog, Jade, who is 10. Here are the diffs between tpoo's and spoo's which I have noticed. This is just my experience. 

Our spoo is smart as a whip (able to open zipped back packs, extract granola bars, unwrap them and eat them, all in secret), barks at the front door with ferocious fervor, as it is her mission in life to guard the house, and, man, does she go nuts when the UPS man shows up, (she actually starts barking when he turns on to our street and she hears his truck). But she will shut up when told and has never actually been aggressive with a person. She does tend to be leash reactive around other dogs, but I blame myself for that more than her. She is a wonderful dog, but she is the only non-Velcro dog we have ever had. She knows where I am at all times, but doesn't have to be there with me. She rarely seeks out attention from us, and actually dislikes having her head touched, though she isn't aggressive about it, she just turns away. She is very independent, and is aloof with strangers, but not aggressive. She is what I call a utilitarian eater--she eats enough to maintain a healthy weight, but doesn't overeat, even if her food is left down all the time. She was a breeze to housetrain--probably took a week all told. She was 12 weeks old when we got her.

In contrast, our tpoos have always been total Velcro cuddlebugs who want to be with us, on us, near us all the time. They slept in our beds, next to us on the couch, and never at our feet--always touching us. They were all smart, but not the scary smart we saw in Jade, and one tpoo in particular was very, very difficult to housebreak--probably took a year, and then she was only 90% there. All of our tpoos were super people dogs, to the point where I would have neighborhood kids knocking at the door to visit with them. One was a big barker, especially when the doorbell rang, and had to be told to be quiet, repeatedly, after the person came in. But she would eventually shut up, and before long would be on the visitor's lap, soaking up the love. One tpoo was a pig, and would eat pretty much anything and everything she could get her teeth on. The other was a utilitarian eater, like the spoo. 

Hope this helps! Again, this is just my experience. Your mileage may vary.


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