# Should I pass on this one?



## SpooFan1 (Jan 11, 2022)

Hello - 
I am planning to get a standard poodle puppy and have been researching what to look for in a good breeder (read lots here, on AKC, VIP, etc, etc). I thought I found a good one about two hours from my home. Her spoo is pregnant and due in a month, but she isn't requiring a deposit until the puppies are 6 weeks old. Both sire and dam are health tested, CHIC certified, and have performance titles (but not conformation titles). The breeder plans to raise the puppies in her home with Puppy Culture, will offer the "standard health guarantee" (NFI), and refuses to ship puppies. She interviewed me and asked for references. This is her first litter, but she seems pretty confident and knowledgeable. I really like her as a person (and also her husband). So everything was looking good, but ...
I drove out to meet the future mother dog today. Great temperament--no concerns there. But the breeder's house was a disaster! Really, really filthy. Empty takeout food containers all over the kitchen, dirty tissues lying around, etc. I used the bathroom before I left, and it was gross. She had three other dogs, two spoos and a boxer--all looked happy and healthy, though the spoos needed a good grooming (not awful, just not great)--plus a couple of cats (looked fine, but honestly I don't know much about cats). I don't want to sound judgemental--and I'll admit that I'm not the best housekeeper either--but this place looked like something you'd see on TV--hoarders or something. I'm so conflicted now. The breeder seems great, but their house is so filthy that I wonder if it would put the puppies' health at risk. They'll be in the whelping box, then penned. But would that be enough protection? Am I over-reacting?
Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

I would go with your gut. I doubt I'm getting an understanding of the full extent of the mess because the only details you've given is an unclean kitchen and some tissues (but I'm not sure I really want to read much detail about someone's dirty house anyway). The most disconcerting thing about what you've posted is all of the things you mentioned seem easy to clean up before company comes or at least give an explanation for if there was some unexpected event. I could see someone being still a bit overwhelmed from the holidays, but I'm not sure why they would let a stranger they are trying to sell to in their house in that situation?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m impressed you used the bathroom! Eek. 

The state of the dogs—especially the dam—would be my primary concern. Were they matted? Crusty eyes? Smelly? Overgrown nails?

I’d also be concerned that the puppies wouldn’t be adequately socialized if the house isn’t puppy-proofed.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am not a great housekeeper either, but nothing so bad as that house sounds. It kind of creeps me out.


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## kuriooo (Feb 17, 2010)

I think go with your gut. There is a difference between a “messy, disorganized house,” and what you describe sounds like a living standard that is a bit out of control. It’s not going to get any easier for her when puppies arrive, they make big messes I think. It may be a situation of a lovely person getting in over her head. Maybe see the other options out there?


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## Looniesense (Jul 10, 2021)

First the Bad - Personally I think that if they can’t handle general housecleaning without puppies they will have a hard time raising those pups. I imagine the first 2 weeks after birth are not too bad as the mom will do all the work and outside of weighing the pups to ensure they are all gaining weight, they will just have to change the sheets or blankets the pups are using daily. Once the pups are more active though it will get much harder. Just having a pup from 8-9 weeks onward is a challenge so can you imagine having 6-10 puppies walking through urine and poop and keeping them all clean if you are having trouble keeping up without pups.

Now the good. If she is only accepting deposits when the pups are 6 weeks old I imagine you would visit the pups at that time and get a good sense Of how they are raised and be able to back out before putting down your deposit "also It may be that their house is not clean because they spend all their time training and doing stuff with their dogs.


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## MsTalika (Aug 29, 2021)

Follow your first mind. You can find a better breeder, and not put yourself or a new pup at such risk.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

SpooFan1 said:


> This is her first litter, but she seems pretty confident and knowledgeable. I really like her as a person (and also her husband).


Before you turn the page, think about calling her and feeling her out regarding the messiness. Something like "I really liked everything about your breeding program but I couldn't help but notice the house was pretty messy that day. I'm sure this isn't normal but I was wondering if you could put my mind at ease. It's not always such a mess is it? ..." See where things go from there. This being her first litter, maybe she lost sight of the house cleaning to try to make sure everything about the dam and breeding process was in order. If you're going to move on anyway, it can't hurt. If anything, it'll probably help her in the future.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Just my personal opinion, but I would pass, and I would tell her why since she sounds like a nice person who is trying to be a good breeder. Maybe if she gets some feedback she will consider seeking help/changing her ways.


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

To offer a counterpoint: 
Ethel's breeder required a face to face meeting with any prospective owner of one of Mrs. Poodle's (Ethel's dam) puppies. When I went over there I was horrified because the house was a complete wreck. She also had other dogs that were all in great shape in addition to her grandchildren running in and out. Over the course of our visit she told me that two weeks before Mrs. Poodle gave birth they unexpectedly had to move. Between packing, moving, unpacking, and Mrs. Poodle giving birth she hadn't been able to do much of anything. One half of her dining room was penned off for Mrs. Poodle and the puppies. Walking in I thought of hoarders after she explained I realized that nothing was dirty, just disorganized. The other condition of ownership was dedicating to at least one in person visit a week with the puppies and Mrs. Poodle. Over the next 9 weeks her house came together and by the time Ethel was ready to go home the house was immaculate. This long anecdote is just to say that it can't hurt to ask and it would be a shame to give up on a potentially wonderful puppy without giving the breeder a chance to at least give you an explanation.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

As someone who hates housework and has a house that chaos is constantly threatening to overwhelm I would be looking at the dogs rather than the floors. Are the dogs reasonably well kempt, mat-free, happy and sociable? There is more and more evidence that the immune system requires priming early in dogs' - and human's - lives, and that excessive hygiene can actually be harmful. A bit of grime might be a bonus!


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## SpooFan1 (Jan 11, 2022)

Thank you all for your thoughts. I wish I could say that there was some event that prompted the state of the house, but it's clear that it's been this way (both cluttered and dirty) for a long, long time. It would probably take weeks or months to clean it up. I can't imagine it getting any better after the puppies are born.
The dogs seemed pretty well cared for--no smell or crusty eyes--though their nails were a bit too long and they had a few mats (not awful, but overdue for a good groom and trim). The boxer of course looked fine.
I keep going back and forth on the hygiene issue. Yes, I found it gross, but does a filthy house really present any kind of health risk to the puppies? The lack of puppy proofing is another matter.


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## princess83 (Jul 21, 2018)

They may not be the best at housekeeping, but it sounds like they are incredibly nice and take care of the puppies.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

SpooFan1 said:


> Thank you all for your thoughts. I wish I could say that there was some event that prompted the state of the house, but it's clear that it's been this way (both cluttered and dirty) for a long, long time. It would probably take weeks or months to clean it up. I can't imagine it getting any better after the puppies are born.
> The dogs seemed pretty well cared for--no smell or crusty eyes--though their nails were a bit too long and they had a few mats (not awful, but overdue for a good groom and trim). The boxer of course looked fine.
> I keep going back and forth on the hygiene issue. Yes, I found it gross, but does a filthy house really present any kind of health risk to the puppies? The lack of puppy proofing is another matter.



I would ask your vet about the health risks from being raised in such a filthy environment. 

Then it will be your call based on your values.


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## Bigbark (Jan 9, 2021)

Did you confirm at OFA.org that both the sire and dam are CHIC certified? If they are, to me, that's really positive. It shows that they care about the health of their breeding stock and are invested in their dogs.

Regarding her house, some people are just that way. They probably don't even notice it. Your description of the house grosses me out too, but I don't think it would be a deal breaker for me.

Since she doesn't require a deposit now, you could continue to shop around. Maybe you'll find a breeder that you like better.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

As long as we aren't talking mold and such, a messy house is not a health issue for the pups. If you think about it, lots of pups are raised in barns etc, and while that may be a concern for socialization and such, it's not a health issue.
Certainly confirm the health testing and titles.
The big thing I would do, is to get a watch the Puppy Culture film yourself. That way you can ask pertinent questions so that you know whether she is truly following it or just planned to (but it fell through like her plans to clean?)
Like others said, you will have until they are 6 weeks to back out, and I bet you will know by four weeks at least. 
Also- speaking as a breeder (not poodles) who also follows Puppy Culture- a breeder does not have to do every single protocol, but what's really important is that they understand and apply the overall theory (for lack of a better word). Bonus, if you watch the film several times, you could maybe help out with some activities and that would not only be fun, but also give you a clear picture on whether the lack of house hygiene is a sign of a bigger issue.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

If the house is not a health risk, and just a different standard of cleanliness than I am comfortable living in, but I liked everything else, I would be inclined to stay with her. I didn’t see the house though.

Do what you feel comfortable with.


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## N'Co (Jan 5, 2022)

I would worry that a puppy raised in a dirty house can tend to be more difficult to housebreak. If the condition of the house made you worry, then walk away.


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