# Why not give AKC papers with pups?



## New2Poo (Feb 15, 2017)

So, I've been addicted to poodle searching now, and came across a very extensive website that had moyens and standards. To me, the pictures are beautiful....albeit the untrained eye. It says they sell ALL their dogs with NO papers, even though all their dogs are registered AKC. Because they don't trust people. I have not seen paperwork, but isn't there a way to give the papers and not be able to register puppies? How does that work when one wants to dabble in AKC obedience? And wants nothing to do with breeding?


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

That's weird. I've heard of breeders holding onto papers until puppies are spayed or neutered as an extra incentive to make sure it happens. But not giving them ever? That seems odd.

Most breeders just do "Limited Registration" for their non-breeding pups, which means that any of that puppy's offspring cannot be registered with AKC. It removes some incentive if a dishonest person wanted to lie about their intentions to breed.

Edit: Here's a link to AKC's page on limited registration, in case you're curious: http://www.akc.org/register/limited-registration/


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## New2Poo (Feb 15, 2017)

lisasgirl, that's exactly what I thought......


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

As lisasgirl noted the breeder should give a limited registration then. When we picked Javelin up we were given the paperwork to submit his limited registration, but since his litter was already registered he already had his AKC number. I just had to fill in his name and my information and send it with the money to "activate" it.

I kind of think that if a breeder won't give you papers to register the dog because they don't trust people I would look elsewhere.


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## New2Poo (Feb 15, 2017)

What is strange is they say they will show you the parents AKC registration, but it doesn't sound like they even register the litters. That's too bad.....someone could still take one of their dogs and breed it, even with no papers, so I don't see how it prevents anything. It's too bad, they have moyen size dogs :argh:


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

It sounds very strange to me, and I think I'd look elsewhere. Could it be their dogs are registered but were purchased with limited registrations, maybe that's the real reason they don't register the litters, they can't.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I would absolutely look elsewhere. Selling dogs with no AKC papers is a huge red flag.

The litter should be registered by the breeder with the AKC. The breeder then gets one registration form for each puppy. The puppy buyer gets the registration form for their puppy. You can then register your puppy or not, as you choose. There is a Registration Type section where a box will be darkened if the puppy that you are getting is being sold with "limited registration." This means that the puppy cannot be bred -- or at least any litters from this puppy cannot be registered with AKC.

I should add (sadly) that I think that selling moyens is another red flag. I love this size, but the thing that makes me sad is that there just are not many good breeders that are breeding moyens. And there are lots and lots of puppy mills and high-volume puppy producers that are selling moyens. If you want a medium sized poodle, I would call reputable mini or standard breeders and see if they might have a over-sized mini or a small standard. That's how I got my Cammie. She's a small standard (35 pounds).


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## New2Poo (Feb 15, 2017)

Yes, peppersb,

I have contacted PCA, and I have emails out to some that seem reputable. While I wait it's difficult not to google though. Sooooo hard to wait. A larger mini would be wonderful!


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Caddy said:


> It sounds very strange to me, and I think I'd look elsewhere. Could it be their dogs are registered but were purchased with limited registrations, maybe that's the real reason they don't register the litters, they can't.


That was my guess, too, Caddy, that the parent dogs were sold with limited papers, so the pups can't be registered.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

My previous Spoo, Iris was from a really top notch breeder and she was only 37 lbs. a great size! My current one, Poppy is 40 lbs, also a very good size. She came from a great breeder in Texas.

Be persistent and you will find the right dog. A small spoo or large mini from a great breeder is out there somewhere just for you!

Cathy


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

peppersb and Viking Queen Lily is a 37 pound standard and 22 3/4" at the withers, so in the same size range as your girls. I actually think of her as an in size standard, since she is way over 15" tall. Even Javelin has not broken 50 pounds. I think he is about 24" at the withers.

I think a lot of people think that most standards are gigantic dogs when they aren't really. Unfortunately there are breeders though who capitalize on "fashion" and produce teacups and royales and moyens, etc. 

OP when you find a good breeder you will know it and they will have the right pup for you and you will get papers, even if for a limited registration. And when that day comes I do hope you will play in performance sports with those of us who find performance events to be a great way to build deep and enriching lives with our dogs.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

No papers would be a big red flag. As Caddy mentioned, it is possible they are breeding unregistered dogs or dogs sold with limited registration. 

My first three poodles came from Canadian breeders, and CKC requires all puppies in a litter to be registered, which I think makes sense. Some breeders here will withhold papers (even limited registration) until proof of spay/neuter. I register my litters and register all of the puppies at my expense, a la CKC (as does Charismatic Millie, BTW). My feeling is that if I don't trust this person to honor my contract, why the hell am I selling them a puppy? 

I've said before that I'm not a fan of the mini-standard crosses. But if you REALLY have your heart set on a poodle that size, you might want to consider one of the breeders who is mixing for diversity reasons, and doing so carefully and with full health testing (and diversity testing to confirm that they are in fact breeding more diverse dogs). Check out Shyre and Autumn Shades poodles. Actually, Rebekah of Shyre has a standard litter now but the dam and sire are both on the smaller side. Autumn Shades has a mini-standard litter.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Verve said:


> ... Rebekah of Shyre has a standard litter now but the dam and sire are both on the smaller side.


The inheritance of size is complex, and breeding a dam and a sire who are on the smaller side does not necessarily mean that their offspring will be on the smaller side. I bred Cammie (35 pounds) to Sting (40 pounds) hoping to get puppies in that size range. We had 5 puppies -- two girls who are now 35 and 40 pounds and 3 boys who are 50, 50 and 55 pounds (numbers are approximate, but pretty close, I think). My Sam is 10 pounds heavier than his dad and 15 pounds heavier than him mom. Not the size I wanted, but otherwise he's perfect!

Funny story. The first people to pick up their puppy were a married couple who brought their adult son with them to get their puppy. I opened the door, took one look at their son and my whole theory of breeding small standard poodles collapsed. This kid was a good 4 or 6 inches taller than either of his parents! So in people and in poodles, the inheritance of size is complex. 

So maybe small parents are more likely to produce small offspring. But no guarantees!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

peppersb your story about the couple and their tall son reminded me of a family of eight children I know of. The oldest child (son) was one of my medical microbiology lab students when I was in graduate school. We were friendly back then. Five of the eight were boys and each next younger boy grew to be 2 inches taller than his next older brother. My friend's hypothesis was that as he and the other older kids got out of the house the younger ones had a more nutritious diet as there was more money to spend on food. His parents were both catholic school teachers and when he was young and the other brothers and sisters were being born his mom didn't work, so they were a family of ten eating on a single parochial school teacher's salary. He claimed to remember eating oatmeal at least twice a day at various points when he was very young.

Moral of the story? No matter what the genetic potential you have to have the environment to realize it.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

peppersb said:


> The inheritance of size is complex, and breeding a dam and a sire who are on the smaller side does not necessarily mean that their offspring will be on the smaller side. I bred Cammie (35 pounds) to Sting (40 pounds) hoping to get puppies in that size range. We had 5 puppies -- two girls who are now 35 and 40 pounds and 3 boys who are 50, 50 and 55 pounds (numbers are approximate, but pretty close, I think). My Sam is 10 pounds heavier than his dad and 15 pounds heavier than him mom. Not the size I wanted, but otherwise he's perfect!


Good point, but you also knew that Sting had produced large, right? 

I happen to know a little bit more about Gaston, as I know his owner/breeder. Not only is he on the small side, but those lines run consistently small--she has a 20" bitch from the same lines. One theory is that they are throwbacks to the pre-Wycliffe era. Among the many huge impacts Jean Lyle had on the variety (good and bad), she liked and selected for larger dogs.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Verve said:


> Good point, but you also knew that Sting had produced large, right?
> 
> I happen to know a little bit more about Gaston, as I know his owner/breeder. Not only is he on the small side, but those lines run consistently small--she has a 20" bitch from the same lines. One theory is that they are throwbacks to the pre-Wycliffe era. Among the many huge impacts Jean Lyle had on the variety (good and bad), she liked and selected for larger dogs.


Thank you Verve! Very interesting. I didn't know that Jean Lyle selected for larger poodles. I see that Gaston is one of Natalie Tessier's dogs. (For those who don't know, Natalie is a leader in breeding for diversity.) Gaston is less than 17% Wycliffe which is pretty impressive. Cammie, Sting and Sam, like most dogs from show lines have a much higher percentage Wycliffe. Interesting to think that there might be lines that are less influenced by Wycliffe -- and therefore more influenced by the pre-Wycliffe era -- that might be consistently smaller.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

peppersb said:


> The inheritance of size is complex, and breeding a dam and a sire who are on the smaller side does not necessarily mean that their offspring will be on the smaller side. I bred Cammie (35 pounds) to Sting (40 pounds) hoping to get puppies in that size range. We had 5 puppies -- two girls who are now 35 and 40 pounds and 3 boys who are 50, 50 and 55 pounds (numbers are approximate, but pretty close, I think). My Sam is 10 pounds heavier than his dad and 15 pounds heavier than him mom. Not the size I wanted, but otherwise he's perfect!
> 
> Funny story. The first people to pick up their puppy were a married couple who brought their adult son with them to get their puppy. I opened the door, took one look at their son and my whole theory of breeding small standard poodles collapsed. This kid was a good 4 or 6 inches taller than either of his parents! So in people and in poodles, the inheritance of size is complex.
> 
> So maybe small parents are more likely to produce small offspring. But no guarantees!


How do you know that man was the kid's father? As they say, "It's a wise child who knows his own father." :act-up:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Well, and in general, like any heritable trait that is complex, knowing that a dog has consistently produced small and has a pedigree with a lot of small should give you more confidence in his ability to produce small than a dog who has been known to have produced a variety of sizes, despite is actual size.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> How do you know that man was the kid's father? As they say, "It's a wise child who knows his own father." :act-up:


Hahaha, good point! Years ago my family participated in an NIH genetic study. One of the researchers commented that although they learn true parentage (or false parentage, more to the point) of children in the course of testing, they would never inform the family of those results.


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## New2Poo (Feb 15, 2017)

Verve, thank you for the tip, I've been in contact with Rebekah, and she may be a good match for us as a breeder. I had not come across her site before......


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## poodal_luvah (Mar 11, 2017)

Just reading this thread and chuckling slightly because this is the same problem I have been venting about. What I keep running across is breeders that want to hold the AKC registry until you spay/neuter your dog. To me, this is blackmail and I will not agree to it. This is not the way it is done in Europe and I won't buy a dog from a breeder who places stipulations on a dog I am paying for. 

Thankfully, I believe I have found one or two breeders that believe as I do. They work with breed diversity so they are not breeding with the same pool over and over again. And they focus more on the working breed than the show breed, which means I get a dog that is not cropped and still has it's dew claws. 

Anyway, cool thread. I feel your pain because I've crossed off about ten breeders that want to do limited or no AKC because of bla bla bla.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

poodal_luvah said:


> Just reading this thread and chuckling slightly because this is the same problem I have been venting about. What I keep running across is breeders that want to hold the AKC registry until you spay/neuter your dog. To me, this is blackmail and I will not agree to it. This is not the way it is done in Europe and I won't buy a dog from a breeder who places stipulations on a dog I am paying for.
> 
> Thankfully, I believe I have found one or two breeders that believe as I do. They work with breed diversity so they are not breeding with the same pool over and over again. And they focus more on the working breed than the show breed, which means I get a dog that is not cropped and still has it's dew claws.
> 
> Anyway, cool thread. I feel your pain because I've crossed off about ten breeders that want to do limited or no AKC because of bla bla bla.


Do you wish to breed? I do not understand why a breeder retaining the papers until they are provided proof of spay or neuter would matter otherwise.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

poodal_luvah said:


> What I keep running across is breeders that want to hold the AKC registry until you spay/neuter your dog. To me, this is blackmail and I will not agree to it. This is not the way it is done in Europe and I won't buy a dog from a breeder who places stipulations on a dog I am paying for.
> 
> Thankfully, I believe I have found one or two breeders that believe as I do. They work with breed diversity so they are not breeding with the same pool over and over again. And they focus more on the working breed than the show breed, which means I get a dog that is not cropped and still has it's dew claws.


I'm confused.  Poodle Dynasty states that they don't give AKC papers. Did they tell you otherwise? 

Oh, and tails and dews don't make a working dog. Titles do!


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Verve said:


> I'm confused. Poodle Dynasty states that they don't give AKC papers. Did they tell you otherwise?
> 
> Oh, and tails and dews don't make a working dog. Titles do!


Reading this page from the breeder also makes me suspicious as they will not allow you to see where the dogs live or to see their home environment. They will meet you at the airport, or meet you on line, or meet you in North Dallas. They claim it is because your car tires or shoes could bring disease into their property and possibly kill their dogs. Have to wonder what they are hiding.

Also by not giving papers and requiring spay neuter of their pet placements they are allowing people to breed their dogs and make as many "doodles" as they wish. How is that ethical?

Viking Queen


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Viking Queen said:


> Reading this page from the breeder also makes me suspicious as they will not allow you to see where the dogs live or to see their home environment. They will meet you at the airport, or meet you on line, or meet you in North Dallas. They claim it is because your car tires or shoes could bring disease into their property and possibly kill their dogs. Have to wonder what they are hiding.
> Viking Queen


I had the same reaction to that section, Viking Queen. I certainly understand the fear of disease, but think it has to be balanced with the puppies' need for socialization. My puppies met dozens of people before they left me.


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## poodal_luvah (Mar 11, 2017)

Verve said:


> I'm confused. Poodle Dynasty states that they don't give AKC papers. Did they tell you otherwise?
> 
> Oh, and tails and dews don't make a working dog. Titles do!


They will give AKC if you ask. But I think they realize that the majority of people coming to them want Poodles for companionship. And since they are focusing on working dogs as well as Poodles for companionship then there almost no need. After all, the only reason for AKC is if you want to show the dog. And if you want a show dog you would probably go to another breeder, wouldn't you?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Amen! Amen! Amen!


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## poodal_luvah (Mar 11, 2017)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Do you wish to breed? I do not understand why a breeder retaining the papers until they are provided proof of spay or neuter would matter otherwise.


I have no intention of breeding but I feel as if I'm being dictated to. And I finished grade school many, many years ago. 

I will get a Poodle from Europe if I can't find the dog I want over here. And in fact, many folks who want a quality GSD will go to Serbia or the Czech republic for a great, straight backed, working GSD. And guess what they don't ask you to do? They don't ask, or demand of you to get your dog spayed or neutered and they don't give you a dog with limited papers either. And the same applies to Poodles, or any other dog you get from overseas. And that dog can always be registered with the AKC if you so choose to pay the money they would ask to do this.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I like the way the CKC does it here in Canada. If we are members of the CKC it is illegal to sell puppies that we claim to be purebred without registering them. We have no option- they HAVE to be registered or we face losing our membership and can be heavily fined. We are also not allowed to charge for the registering them. It is OUR responsibility to register each and every puppy and pay for it. Sometimes it is annoying because we withhold the papers until we receive proof of spay or neuter and the truth is, most pet people do not care a fig, so I have a file folder stuffed full of unclaimed registration certificates and I could have saved a lot of money not doing it, but I think our system holds a breeder accountable and I much prefer it.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I like the way the CKC does it here in Canada. If we are members of the CKC it is illegal to sell puppies that we claim to be purebred without registering them.


I agree, Arreau! My first three poodles were Canadian, and it's why I decided to follow that model and register all puppies myself.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

poodal_luvah said:


> They will give AKC if you ask. And since they are focusing on working dogs as well as Poodles for companionship then there almost no need. After all, the only reason for AKC is if you want to show the dog. And if you want a show dog you would probably go to another breeder, wouldn't you?


You need AKC registration if you want to compete in AKC performance events, including Obedience, field, agility, etc. Alternatively, you can get a ILP/PAL on a dog, but what's the point if it's a purebred dog from a breeder.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

poodal_luvah said:


> They will give AKC if you ask. But I think they realize that the majority of people coming to them want Poodles for companionship. And since they are focusing on working dogs as well as Poodles for companionship then there almost no need. After all, the only reason for AKC is if you want to show the dog. And if you want a show dog you would probably go to another breeder, wouldn't you?



You need AKC registration not just to show in conformation, but also for obedience, rally, agility, tracking and any other performance sport. You even need an AKC registration if you want your CGC to be a title I think.

Oops I didn't see your reply above mine Verve. Great minds thinking alike perhaps?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Poodal Luvah -- I would guess that any puppy mill would be happy to sell you a puppy with full registration. But is that what you want?

The fact that Poodle Dynasty won't let you see the parent dogs or the puppies is a huge red flag. My advice to anyone who is buying a puppy is to meet the momma dog, look into her eyes and make sure that she is happy and content. This is important for two reasons (1) I don't like to support breeders that mistreat their momma dogs (and many high-volume breeders do have tragically sad breeding dogs), and (2) The mother dog is the one that is taking care of your puppy for the first 8 or 9 weeks of its life. A happy, content and well-supported momma dog will give your puppy a sense of security and well-being -- a much better start in life than a sad, stressed momma can give. It makes a huge difference. 

I understand that you feel strongly about breeders being too controlling and I actually agree that breeders being over-controlling can be a problem. (Don't get me started on breeders that think that they "own" your dog if you have a health or financial crisis that is so severe that you need to place your dog in a new home. So you can't give your own dog to a trusted friend or family member without the breeder's approval? Really?) But please don't let your strong feelings about over-controlling breeders push you in the direction of a puppy mill. Any breeder who will not let you visit and meet the breeding dogs and see where they live is really alarming in my opinion. I would stay far, far away from Poodle Dynasty.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

You seem emboldened poodal_luvah to want the whole line of a breeder for a mere $2K. Import whatever you want from Europe, but you will not get breeding rights and an AKC registration from an ethical breeder of proven poodles unless they trust you absolutely. See Verve's short form.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

'Form follows function' and in the poodle that is an absolute for a conformation bred (show) poodle......'movement' is critical for a poodle intended to be able to perform....it's not just a 'beauty pageant' there is much thought put into breeding a poodle that can hunt, jump, swim, hike, and not be crippled by the age of 5............ DNA can help determine genetic health And OFA results can help determine skeletal soundness........and the diversity testing ties the bow! There is no difference between the show and work bred poodles if testing is done completely and correctly!!! 
Their are quite a few people breeding hunting poodles and even they 'prove' their stock in trials! Nope, not a beauty pageant at all!!


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

MollyMuiMa said:


> 'Form follows function' and in the poodle that is an absolute for a conformation bred (show) poodle......'movement' is critical for a poodle intended to be able to perform....it's not just a 'beauty pageant' there is much thought put into breeding a poodle that can hunt, jump, swim, hike, and not be crippled by the age of 5............ DNA can help determine genetic health And OFA results can help determine skeletal soundness........and the diversity testing ties the bow! There is no difference between the show and work bred poodles if testing is done completely and correctly!!!
> Their are quite a few people breeding hunting poodles and even they 'prove' their stock in trials! Nope, not a beauty pageant at all!!


Well said!


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## New2Poo (Feb 15, 2017)

So how does that work when you want to show in AKC performance events? Do you not need AKC paperwork on your dog?


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

New2Poo said:


> So how does that work when you want to show in AKC performance events? Do you not need AKC paperwork on your dog?


Yes, the pup needs to be AKC registered. Can be limited registration but needs to be registered.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Verve said:


> Yes, the pup needs to be AKC registered. Can be limited registration but needs to be registered.


The registration number is the key to your record keeping in your progress towards titles. You have to accurately enter that number on every entry form you ever send. Let's face it there are lots of dogs named Lily and even probably quite a few black poodles named Lily in the US, but only one with my Lily's registration number.


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## Lavon (Oct 7, 2021)

New2Poo said:


> So, I've been addicted to poodle searching now, and came across a very extensive website that had moyens and standards. To me, the pictures are beautiful....albeit the untrained eye. It says they sell ALL their dogs with NO papers, even though all their dogs are registered AKC. Because they don't trust people. I have not seen paperwork, but isn't there a way to give the papers and not be able to register puppies? How does that work when one wants to dabble in AKC obedience? And wants nothing to do with breeding?


Hello! I could adopt a poodle for little cost however I am forced to neuter or spay the poodle which does not work for me. One has the right to breed their pet if they choose. I personally am very picky when it comes to buying a poodle. For my money I expect it to meet the standards. I want the square shape, long thin nose and nice eyes with the head. No short legs or fat heavy body. Poodles are little clown dogs with a lot of energy. I like to run two together and tie a knot in a sock and they will play tug war for hours. I like female dogs intact in the house. They are wonderful working dogs and I have used them for many years. Mine have lived well past 15 years and by that time to old to breed so once they pass I replace them. I had one female poodle spayed however she was not interested in working, she was lazy and slept most of the time. All the AKC registered papers say are they are a pure breed and not a cross. Really nothing to make a fuss about. I prefer the pure breed poodle due to allergies. Those of you who breed dogs should look at it as a business and once you sell your wear turn it loose and thank your customers for their business and proudly hand over the registration papers along with health records. Your customer has paid you for your work. Note: I too raised small dogs and shipped all over the USA and I am sure a lot of you know us or of us. God Bless all of you Poodle lovers. I am 81 and have used these beautiful special dogs for my ears since I was 20 years old. I am now shopping for another White or Silver female standard poodle and maybe both if I can find a couple I can afford to purchase. I always priced my dogs so they were affordable to the average family as having them groomed is expensive. They are a safe dog for the family which means a lot when placing a dog in a family with children especially small children. They are strong swimmers with a soft mouth and make great duck hunting or small game dogs for dad. Just an all over family dog. Lavon


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