# Questions about raw food diet...



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm in the UK, so the situation regarding permitted antibiotics and growth hormones is probably rather different to the US. I researched my animals' diet using DogAware.com: Homemade Diets for Dogs for up to date information on what they need in terms of calories and nutrients, and NDL/FNIC Food Composition Database Home Page for information on the composition of the various foods available locally. I buy pet mince (chicken, beef, duck, rabbit, lamb, etc, all single source) that is human grade, but includes bone and offal, chicken wings, other meat, eggs, fish and vegetables from the supermarket (plus some home grown veg), and frozen tripe chunks from one of the pet food ranges. The only supplement I use regularly is taurine for the cats, which I get from a UK body building firm - everything else is more than adequately covered by the food they get. I have worked out that, for two toy dogs and two cats, it costs me around 60 - 70% of buying a premium kibble.


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## HighJump (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm not sure how UK laws work regarding taurine and vitamin C, but here in the United States over 90% of taurine and vitamin C are manufactured in China and imported to our country. This figure is not just minerals for pets, but minerals period.

That said, the pet food I purchase that utilizes vitamin C and taurine is screened for toxins before purchasing (no melamine which wreaked havoc on our pets in 2007 [and probably before that time as well]). As far as antibiotics in the food, I was informed that the animals (beef, poultry, etc.) can be given the prophylactics, but have to test negative before harvesting. No growth hormones are used.

Not to bash China, but they basically own most of the world's civilized countries. I would be surprised if the taurine you are getting is not from there as there are many European loopholes regarding importing there as well. However, let me know if the taurine you purchase is actually "manufactured AND created in the UK". I'd be interested to know. 

I am, by far, not saying the food I give my dog is superior. Trust me, there are several high quality dog foods that I would consider if the one I have needs to be replaced (or on a cycle).

Thank you for your response. I appreciate it.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I will be interested in how the thread goes. 

I feed Orijen Red, it is expensive, but I think it's a really good food. I feed "raw" in the evening. I don't worry so much about the raw meal because the kibble should fill in for what it might be lacking.

I am a " Some is Better than None" , raw feeder. I also feed fresh eggs from our own chickens, venison that my husband , the hunter, puts in the freezer every fall. I give my dogs probiotics weekly as well.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Carley's Mom said:


> I will be interested in how the thread goes.
> 
> I feed Orijen Red, it is expensive, but I think it's a really good food. I feed "raw" in the evening. I don't worry so much about the raw meal because the kibble should fill in for what it might be lacking.
> 
> I am a " Some is Better than None" , raw feeder. I also feed fresh eggs from our own chickens, venison that my husband , the hunter, puts in the freezer every fall. I give my dogs probiotics weekly as well.


Luke will eat just about anything put in front of him, but Jazz has gotten picky in the last couple of months. I'm attributing it to her having reached her adult weight and just needing less food, but it does worry me. Suddenly she is avoiding vegetables if she can eat around them, she doesn't like the kelp powder I've used for several months, even eggs and sardines get left in the bowl. The only food she still gobbles down is raw, meaty bones. I'm starting to get concerned about balanced nutrition, to the point that I'm thinking about going to one kibble meal a day for her.

Before that, though, I'll cut back on her portions to about 2% rather than 3% of her weight (perhaps I'm just overfeeding her), and maybe try changing our feeding routine a bit, to see if she'll clean her bowl. My son-in-law brought me fresh venison recently, and I got a shipment of alternative protein sources, including ground whole muskrat and ground whole duck from My Pet Carnivore this evening. That may pique her appetite. I hope.


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

My questions are as follows:

1) If feeding a protein source such as farm-raised chicken, pork, bison or beef do you feed strictly organic? If not, are the antibiotics that are frequently found in these meat sources just part of the necessary choice to feed raw (which then wouldn't really be considered completely raw since an unhealthy by-product is added)?

I don't make sure all of the meat is organic. If the organic is on sale then I'll buy it. Otherwise, I do make sure that none of the meat is enhanced. Check sodium levels. Levels over 100 mg and you have enhanced meat. I also check to see that the label says antibiotic/ hormone free. 

2) When adding additdional vitamins and minerals how do you know the company does not outsource to China ("Made in the USA" does not guarantee that the product did not come from China, just produced here as many owners/breeders know)? In addition, if the minerals/supplements come from Europe there is still no guarantee as there are European loop-hole laws that are similar to ours (if you need more information regarding this I have a quote from a TOTW customer rep. regarding this, so please let me know).

Simply do not add additional vitamins or minerals. If you aren't grinding the meat or cooking it then you are not losing the vitamins/ minerals. Grinding takes away some of the taurine. Leave the meat whole and only chop it up as needed. Bigger pieces are ideal. Supplementation is not necessary at all. If you feed the right proportions over time- doesn't need to be exact daily- your dog will be healthy. Prey model raw is the most simple raw- no adding vegetables, fruits, or vitamins. I'll suggest you join the yahoo raw feeding group, they are very knowledgeable about these things since many of the members have been raw feeding for many years.


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## HighJump (Oct 26, 2013)

I am curious as to the probiotics that you use (the brand name). Do you feed them for the lactobacillus acidophilus/ease of digestion? Does this help with Gastric Dilation/volvulus? Is this something that is more common in spoos as opposed to minis and toys?


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## HighJump (Oct 26, 2013)

Jamie Hein said:


> My questions are as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## iuhippiechick (Jun 9, 2012)

Jamie Hein, just to clarify...if I have access to "home-grown" beef, taken from the field to my butcher, is it acceptable to use that for our pups RAW diet? If so, I don't need to worry about vitamin supplements or adding vegetables to the diet? If so, do you know approximately how much RAW beef a 30lb pup would need?


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

HighJump said:


> I am curious as to the probiotics that you use (the brand name). Do you feed them for the lactobacillus acidophilus/ease of digestion? Does this help with Gastric Dilation/volvulus? Is this something that is more common in spoos as opposed to minis and toys?


Sunny is on a modified raw diet; some prey model raw (Vital Essentials right now) and occasionally some Acana grain free raw (or not). My original holistic vet said adding a probiotic is just good and I add a sprinkle on Sunny's food daily --- I use Prozyme. Sunny is a mini. I understand it will help with digestion, and aid in getting all the nutrients out of the food.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

While I am careful about not buying treats and meat originating from China (and yes, it can be difficult to be certain, as pet food manufacturers do not have to declare the source of ingredients, so I usually make my own), I am rather less concerned about chemicals such as taurine. I think these are more easily tested for purity - it either is 100% taurine or it is not - and because it is sold for human consumption is tested to pretty high standards.


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## HighJump (Oct 26, 2013)

I am very impressed from what I have read about Prozyme because 1) it does not contain harmful "binders" such as titanium dioxide or magnesium stearate and 2) it contains bromelain which is a natural anti-inflammatory (a nice benefit!). My Peke's stools have never been a problem, but I might consider it for my new minipoo (well, as soon as he pops outta' his mama and comes home to me).

Very, very disappointed in the glucosamine/chondroitin/msm/HA supplement I'm feeding. I didn't pay close enough attention and failed to notice the magnesium stearate and zinc (oxide not citrate) added. This wasn't a cheap supplement, either. I called customer service regarding the addition (what purpose they serve and the possible toxicity). This was her professional answer:

"Well, it's your choice if you want to feed it or not."

I was absolutely flabbergasted. I said, "Seriously? That is your answer? No R & D fact sheet(s) to inform consumers with this type of query?"

"We've never had a consumer question our ingredients."

Red flag, red flag, red flag...

So, if anyone has a recommendation of a quality joint supplement that doesn't contain harmful additives, please let me know. I am more than interested in switching brands!


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## HighJump (Oct 26, 2013)

fjm said:


> While I am careful about not buying treats and meat originating from China (and yes, it can be difficult to be certain, as pet food manufacturers do not have to declare the source of ingredients, so I usually make my own), I am rather less concerned about chemicals such as taurine. I think these are more easily tested for purity - it either is 100% taurine or it is not - and because it is sold for human consumption is tested to pretty high standards.


I am very interested in making my own treats as well. Do you have a food dehydrator to make them? Any suggestions for recipes?

Agree with the vitamin C and taurine to a certain extent--yes if it's for human consumption it _should be beneficial to ingest. However, I have to be honest (and I have nothing against the citizens of China--feel sorry for them, really) but I don't trust the country's inferior quality control. We don't check their products close enough for my satisfaction, but it's something I have learned to be more tolerant (not complacent, however) of._


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

HighJump said:


> Jamie Hein said:
> 
> 
> > My questions are as follows:
> ...


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

iuhippiechick said:


> Jamie Hein, just to clarify...if I have access to "home-grown" beef, taken from the field to my butcher, is it acceptable to use that for our pups RAW diet? If so, I don't need to worry about vitamin supplements or adding vegetables to the diet? If so, do you know approximately how much RAW beef a 30lb pup would need?


It is very acceptable! That meat is better than any you will find in a kibble, especially being raw. You absolutely do not need to worry about vitamins/ minerals if you are doing the right proportions. 80% of your dogs diet is muscle meat. Hearts count as muscle meat for raw feeding purposes. 10% needs to be bone and 10% organs (kidney, liver, sweet breads, pancreas- no stomach/ intestines). So take your dogs weight, if he is a puppy you use the ideal adult weight, and do the math. The percents need not be exact every day. You aim more for a weekly balance. For a 12 lb cat I feed 1/2 cup meat per day and then over the course of the week a few tablespoons muscle meat and two bone in meals. If their poop is soft I give more bone. If it looks crumbly, less bone. Vegetables are not necessary. They are a waste of money. Carnivores do not need them.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Our every day treat is liver biscotti - I've posted the recipe elsewhere if you search for liver cake - or a variant made with tuna rather than liver. For very high value treats I usually use cooked chicken. I have dried chicken, but as it dehydrates by around 80%+, even a few crumbs contain quite a few calories, and with toy dogs that is always a consideration! My animals get some raw food (RMBs, tripe, meat chunks) and some cooked (mince, liver, other offal) - Sophy dislikes anything with a gluey texture and prefers those cooked, and it is easier to defrost meat, cook it, and freeze it again in portions than to try to get through large quantities of defrosted raw. For me the important thing is to know exactly what they are eating, and how it has been processed, rather than for everything to be raw.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I disagree to some extent with the "no vegetables" dictum. I don't use the whole prey model, so my dogs don't get the skin, fur/hair, and other fibrous parts of an entire animal. My older dog, especially, has trouble passing his stools, even though they aren't too bony or hard, so he really needs extra fiber, which he gets from the veggies I add. I also use Berte's Green Blend, for the kelp/iodine, and fish oil.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I add a few veg - Poppy is inclined to be costive, and green veg helps. They both love green beans, and I work on the principle that a smallish proportion of cooked veg helps to fill their bowls/tummies for very few calories, may do some good, and will almost certainly do no harm! Interestingly, I've noticed that when they are not given any vegetables they are far more likely to snack on the predigested ones to be found in the sheep and rabbit droppings to be found on our walks...


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## Sweetp (Mar 23, 2013)

Kaylee also tends to have very hard stools if not given fruits and veggies. 

She refuses to eat raw meat of any kind. I have tried mixing a little raw in with her cooked meat and she won't eat it. I have soaked raw in broth overnight and mixed it in and it's still a no-go. She's almost 10 years old, very healthy and I'm tired of stressing over it. 
Btw, here's a video of dogs closest relative, wolves, eating berries:

Wolves Eating Berries - Video


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

My spoo eats 99% raw meat of various sorts. I wish I could afford all organic, but I can't. He gets raw with bone, chicken, beef, lamb, venison, pork, usually whatever is cheapest. But I feed him all grass fed organic raw organs - beef liver and beef kidneys mostly, as well as tongue, and heart. I am trying to find a source of green tripe.

For some reason he won't eat raw chicken livers, so I saute them for a few seconds on each side and he snarfs them down. I hate to do that as I realize even a tiny bit of cooking destroys necessary enzymes.

If I have run out of raw meat, I keep some Honest Kitchen Force on hand, just in case. Maybe once every 4 months when traveling he will get Taste of the Wild dry food.

He hates vegetables! Really refuses to eat them, or when I mix them in ground meat he poops them out undigested, or eats around them. However he loves expensive blueberries, raspberries, blackberries and strawberries, as well as cheaper bananas! Won't touch apples, pears, oranges, etc. 

I do sometimes supplement with omega 3 oils, and occasionally with Mercola probiotics, Mercola Spirugreen. and once in awhile NuVet Plus tabs.

I don't trust any of the governments internationally, even our US, to test for, or even know of things that might be harmful to us or our pets. Sorry, but I have seen too much.

Other folks say their poodles like carrots, beans 'n stuff, but mine won't have a thing to do with them. I am going to try making our own jerky!


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## HighJump (Oct 26, 2013)

kontiki said:


> My spoo eats 99% raw meat of various sorts. I wish I could afford all organic, but I can't. He gets raw with bone, chicken, beef, lamb, venison, pork, usually whatever is cheapest. But I feed him all grass fed organic raw organs - beef liver and beef kidneys mostly, as well as tongue, and heart. I am trying to find a source of green tripe.
> 
> For some reason he won't eat raw chicken livers, so I saute them for a few seconds on each side and he snarfs them down. I hate to do that as I realize even a tiny bit of cooking destroys necessary enzymes.
> 
> ...


I am going to attempt to make my own sweet potato jerky as well. Just got a good tip on a dehydrator.

Thanks for your info on raw food.


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## MTWaggin (Nov 17, 2010)

I'd recommend the Tom Lonsdale book (the little one unless you want to dig through a lot of "justification to the vet community"). I am actually just transitioning back to raw with my dogs and am not using probiotics or any additional items at this point. I don't have access to organic and couldn't afford it if I do. I do however order in bulk from an Oma's Pride distributer and that has worked out well as I have some of my littles that have to have ground but my toothy guys get whole. It has been an interesting adventure so far and the big guys will be switching over in the next month. We also though feed Petcurean kibble on days when it is just too busy (or Mom forgot to thaw). I will likely look at probiotics at the point that I've figured out what amounts and which proteins the dogs need. Mine don't like the fruit or veggies and will refuse an entire meal on them - I do figure those aren't "required" and don't force the issue. I've also found I have a few that don't like certain organ meat either. It is a learning process but the thing I really liked about the T.L. books is not to get wrapped up in doing it "perfectly" and just be observant. As you would with human children.


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## AnnieGirl (Jun 13, 2011)

*Facebook Group*

Look up Natural Health Care for Dogs on facebook. I joined this group and have learned so much about raw feeding. You can't go wrong joining this group. Good luck.


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## HighJump (Oct 26, 2013)

AnnieGirl said:


> Look up Natural Health Care for Dogs on facebook. I joined this group and have learned so much about raw feeding. You can't go wrong joining this group. Good luck.


Thank you for the link. I've been integrating more grass-fed and antibiotic-free beef and chicken into my dog's diet along with fresh vegetables and fruits. He still gets his Wellness Core dry and wet (a five star food on DogAdvisor.com), but I feel better knowing that I'm adding more unprocessed foods to his overall nutrition.

The results? Three years since his last teeth-cleaning (vet just approved another year!), recent 100% clean extensive blood panel (taken 1/20/2014), and excellent weight (vet even said he could gain a lb.). So, in my opinion, I believe one can feed both a five star "off-the-shelf" food and raw.


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## crossgjh (Feb 12, 2014)

*Raw Feeding*

Jaimie I think you may have made a statement that is completing my question? If you feed your dog raw (meat & bone), then you need not worry about vegetables? This will give them all the nutrients they need? I will be anxiously waiting your answer. THANKS SO VERY MUCH!!



Jamie Hein said:


> My questions are as follows:
> 
> 1) If feeding a protein source such as farm-raised chicken, pork, bison or beef do you feed strictly organic? If not, are the antibiotics that are frequently found in these meat sources just part of the necessary choice to feed raw (which then wouldn't really be considered completely raw since an unhealthy by-product is added)?
> 
> ...


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

crossgjh said:


> Jaimie I think you may have made a statement that is completing my question? If you feed your dog raw (meat & bone), then you need not worry about vegetables? This will give them all the nutrients they need? I will be anxiously waiting your answer. THANKS SO VERY MUCH!!


This is correct in my opinion and in other prey model raw feeders opinions. Dogs do not derive nutrients from vegetables because they lack the enzymes to break them down. So feeding raw in the correct proportions of the prey model raw diet- approximately 80% muscle meat 10% bone and 10% organs- half of that being liver- you won't need supplementation or vegetables. However, if you decide to grind anything then I would supplement with taurine since that is lost when you grind. I recommend joining the yahoo.com raw feeding group. There are a few- raw chat, raw feeding, ect. Any one of them are good.


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## crossgjh (Feb 12, 2014)

*Raw Feedomg*

Jaimie, thank you for answering my question. One more please. I do not know what taurine is. I am so close to doing this to see if my dog will stop itching, scratching, licking. He is on Temperil-P for allergies and what I read today about it makes me quiver with fear for his good health. I also read about Flower of Sulfer. You bathe or rub it into the skin and they get relief. I appreciate all the help you can offer.


Jamie Hein said:


> This is correct in my opinion and in other prey model raw feeders opinions. Dogs do not derive nutrients from vegetables because they lack the enzymes to break them down. So feeding raw in the correct proportions of the prey model raw diet- approximately 80% muscle meat 10% bone and 10% organs- half of that being liver- you won't need supplementation or vegetables. However, if you decide to grind anything then I would supplement with taurine since that is lost when you grind. I recommend joining the yahoo.com raw feeding group. There are a few- raw chat, raw feeding, ect. Any one of them are good.


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

crossgjh said:


> Jaimie, thank you for answering my question. One more please. I do not know what taurine is. I am so close to doing this to see if my dog will stop itching, scratching, licking. He is on Temperil-P for allergies and what I read today about it makes me quiver with fear for his good health. I also read about Flower of Sulfer. You bathe or rub it into the skin and they get relief. I appreciate all the help you can offer.


Taurine is an amino acid that is found in meats. It is needed for cardiovascular health. I really recommend the raw feeding for allergies, since it will eliminate them. Even if your dog is allergic to chicken, sometimes feeding a protein raw eliminates that allergy. But every dog is different, and this may not be a cure-all for you. I would give it a try though, but like I said I highly recommend joining a prey model raw feeding group and having one of the more experienced people tell you how to start out and such, and give them information about your dog and they will help you go from there.


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## crossgjh (Feb 12, 2014)

*Raw Feeding*

Jamie, thanks for keeping up with me and my questions. I truly and blessed with your help. I am going to try to put a plan together to do the raw feeding. It truly seems the way to go. I looked at a statement last night where a veterinarian in Australia wrote a book promoting the raw meat diet for dogs. Vets here protested but the statements that were written in the protest were to me, very weak. It did not scare me off at all. Jamie, where do you find Taurine and where do you get the amount to use? Once again. Thank you.


Jamie Hein said:


> Taurine is an amino acid that is found in meats. It is needed for cardiovascular health. I really recommend the raw feeding for allergies, since it will eliminate them. Even if your dog is allergic to chicken, sometimes feeding a protein raw eliminates that allergy. But every dog is different, and this may not be a cure-all for you. I would give it a try though, but like I said I highly recommend joining a prey model raw feeding group and having one of the more experienced people tell you how to start out and such, and give them information about your dog and they will help you go from there.


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

crossgjh said:


> Jamie, thanks for keeping up with me and my questions. I truly and blessed with your help. I am going to try to put a plan together to do the raw feeding. It truly seems the way to go. I looked at a statement last night where a veterinarian in Australia wrote a book promoting the raw meat diet for dogs. Vets here protested but the statements that were written in the protest were to me, very weak. It did not scare me off at all. Jamie, where do you find Taurine and where do you get the amount to use? Once again. Thank you.


I don't buy taurine since it is present in meat. You only need to supplement if you are going to be grinding meat- which is not recommended. If you decide you must grind, look online for taurine supplement powders.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Jamie - you are doing a great job here of educating on raw. It is the same recommendations I would give. I do not feed ground meat so don't supplement with taurine. I do feed my Spoo organic organs (liver, kidneys, etc) because it is the only thing I can organic for under $3 per pound. You can feed my spoo any day! 

I do though add supplemental Omega 3 oils. I wouldn't if I could afford all organic grass range fed animal meat, but I can't. Since so much of the commercial animals used for human meat is fed grain their balance of Omega 6 to Omega 3 is off. I use Nordic Naturals Oils because I trust them, both for me and for my spoo. I alternate the Pro-Omega Pet, and the Cod Liver Oil Pet, every other day, to add Omega 3's back in for a balance. He loves to just lick up the liquid by now.


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

kontiki said:


> Jamie - you are doing a great job here of educating on raw. It is the same recommendations I would give. I do not feed ground meat so don't supplement with taurine. I do feed my Spoo organic organs (liver, kidneys, etc) because it is the only thing I can organic for under $3 per pound. You can feed my spoo any day!
> 
> I do though add supplemental Omega 3 oils. I wouldn't if I could afford all organic grass range fed animal meat, but I can't. Since so much of the commercial animals used for human meat is fed grain their balance of Omega 6 to Omega 3 is off. I use Nordic Naturals Oils because I trust them, both for me and for my spoo. I alternate the Pro-Omega Pet, and the Cod Liver Oil Pet, every other day, to add Omega 3's back in for a balance. He loves to just lick up the liquid by now.


I appreciate your compliments  I feed organic liver as well, but cannot find organic kidneys or other organs. My cats won't eat with fish oil on their meat, but I do put oils on Kennedy's food.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I actually don't put the oils on my spoos meat. I have found that he is always super curious about what I have in my hand. Since I wanted him to have Omega 3 oils, and he was refusing them, and hated having gel caps, either eating or put down his throat, I tried various things. What worked best was taking a little bit of his highest value treat, and then putting a tiny dab of the oil in the palm of my hand with the little treat in it. He of course licked it up. Got a funny look on his face, but also licked up onother little treat in oil. I did this several days with more ratio of oil to treat. Finall one day I just didn't put the treat in my palm - just the oil, about 1/3 teaspoon. After about a week of this I just poured the oil in a bowl or on a plate and he licked it up. Now after he eats his raw meat I just pour his helping for the day of oil (alternating omega 3 and cod liver) on the plate or in the bowl. It is his desert!. Now after eating he waits for it expectantly. Because of the high quality of the oil there is not much odor, but I do wash off his face after eating, just as I did when he was not having the oil, then he drinks his water. 

I can see a difference in his health, skin, and coat, with the added oils.


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## crossgjh (Feb 12, 2014)

*Taurine*

Ok. Thanks Jamie:act-up:


Jamie Hein said:


> I don't buy taurine since it is present in meat. You only need to supplement if you are going to be grinding meat- which is not recommended. If you decide you must grind, look online for taurine supplement powders.


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## crossgjh (Feb 12, 2014)

KONTIKI, I appreciate your information. I am trying to be a sponge from everyone's statements and appreciate the help. I have already seen improvement and as does anybody am waiting for my Mini to keep on blooming. He is such a great pup.


kontiki said:


> I actually don't put the oils on my spoos meat. I have found that he is always super curious about what I have in my hand. Since I wanted him to have Omega 3 oils, and he was refusing them, and hated having gel caps, either eating or put down his throat, I tried various things. What worked best was taking a little bit of his highest value treat, and then putting a tiny dab of the oil in the palm of my hand with the little treat in it. He of course licked it up. Got a funny look on his face, but also licked up onother little treat in oil. I did this several days with more ratio of oil to treat. Finall one day I just didn't put the treat in my palm - just the oil, about 1/3 teaspoon. After about a week of this I just poured the oil in a bowl or on a plate and he licked it up. Now after he eats his raw meat I just pour his helping for the day of oil (alternating omega 3 and cod liver) on the plate or in the bowl. It is his desert!. Now after eating he waits for it expectantly. Because of the high quality of the oil there is not much odor, but I do wash off his face after eating, just as I did when he was not having the oil, then he drinks his water.
> 
> I can see a difference in his health, skin, and coat, with the added oils.


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