# English Saddle or Continental for Show Ring



## NOLA Standards

Have seen it used well in the 12 - 18 month "in between" stages.

I was also told that some/many old school thought considered ES used to hide flaws. But the reality is that just isn't the case. I'll reiterate that structure just cannot be hidden. Especially when a judge puts their hands on a dog - the thickness or the cut of a coat is irrelevant and movement tells.

Scissored and packed I think the ES can be just beautiful. Perhaps even more striking than a CC.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## CharismaticMillie

My dog showed in ES in that in-between stage - finished his championship at 12 months in it and went to PCA in ES. He's got angles galore. I think it would have looked even better on him if he'd had more jacket coat to offset the pack. But he was simply young.


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## dcail

Yes, the old school of thinking was if the dog didn't have a good rear put he/she in the ES to hide it! One reason I think you don't see a lot ES on a dog being shown is very few can do a good ES trim. I've seen few that I can say did a good job on a ES unfortunately! Just my thoughts for you.


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## CharismaticMillie

I don't know if you've seen these or not, but here are a few photos of T when he was in ES. The first one is one day after he was cut out of puppy trim and into ES. The others are from PCA, only 4 months later (and probably 3 inches of topknot less - LOL).

Like, I said, I think more jacket hair is needed in ES to create a look of balance than is needed in CC. While I really liked the way he looked in ES, I think he would have looked much, much better if his jacket hair had had time to grow longer. I really like the trim, though. Historically, I think people consider the ES to hide a straight rear (think minis!). Interestingly, though, T has a ton of angulation, and I actually think he looks quite moderate in ES.


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## mom24doggies

IMO, an ES actually accentuates a poor rear....look at all the coat on their rears! Usually when grooming poodles you take that short short SHORT. To me, it makes the dog look longer in body and straighter in the rear then it actually is. It takes a gorgeous poodle (like T. ) to pull it off well. I suppose that a really good groomer could use it to cover faults...but it's actually really difficult to cover a poor rear (I try all the time on pet poodles, it just doesn't work! Especially if they have a steep pelvis.) and once the dog moves everyone will know immediately. 

I don't know what your poodle is like op, but I would vote against showing in an ES if her angulation especially is anything but good. I know I would not put Trev in one! He's a mini, and almost all minis are straight in the stifle. He is no exception.


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## Ladyscarletthawk

NOLA Standards said:


> Have seen it used well in the 12 - 18 month "in between" stages.
> 
> I was also told that some/many old school thought considered ES used to hide flaws. But the reality is that just isn't the case. I'll reiterate that structure just cannot be hidden. Especially when a judge puts their hands on a dog - the thickness or the cut of a coat is irrelevant and movement tells.
> 
> Scissored and packed I think the ES can be just beautiful. Perhaps even more striking than a CC.
> 
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards


My girl is a special, how well do you think that will work for her?


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## Ladyscarletthawk

dcail said:


> Yes, the old school of thinking was if the dog didn't have a good rear put he/she in the ES to hide it! One reason I think you don't see a lot ES on a dog being shown is very few can do a good ES trim. I've seen few that I can say did a good job on a ES unfortunately! Just my thoughts for you.


Im definitely going to do my best . Unfortunately I see very little information on how to do an appropriate ES. Ill make sure I post my girl in it when she has enough hair for it to get a critique!


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## Ladyscarletthawk

CharismaticMillie said:


> I don't know if you've seen these or not, but here are a few photos of T when he was in ES. The first one is one day after he was cut out of puppy trim and into ES. The others are from PCA, only 4 months later (and probably 3 inches of topknot less - LOL).
> 
> Like, I said, I think more jacket hair is needed in ES to create a look of balance than is needed in CC. While I really liked the way he looked in ES, I think he would have looked much, much better if his jacket hair had had time to grow longer. I really like the trim, though. Historically, I think people consider the ES to hide a straight rear (think minis!). Interestingly, though, T has a ton of angulation, and I actually think he looks quite moderate in ES.


T is beautiful, and I can totally see the difference that the jacket makes to the balance to the trim. Doenst look like the same dog for sure! Is that sexy beast in your avatar T? I have seen mostly minis in that trim lol. My mini has decent angulation esp for a mini. I have to download some pix cause my pc died.. but I did take some pix from the other night, she got a bath and trim to tidy her up as she grows out.. Im trying to decide were the jacket should end. I also have a BOS pix from this summer so you can see her in attire. I have been trying to perfect it, her coat gets the length but not so much on the thickness. I had her in a different style a lot more coat, a bit more aged style lol. So after recieving advice I trimmed her down to the BOS(not enough thickness to pull off longer yet) and I dont have/use wiggies. I notice she isnt winning as much so have redoubled my efforts to grow the coat she had and try the old way of spray up again.


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## Ladyscarletthawk

Ok here are her pix.. First one is a movement pic (duh !), the next is the old style I did. The third is the one from this summer.. sorry didnt have time to edit and its an iphone scan lol.. The next two are of her a couple days ago.. banded.. trim down her poms a bit to match her legs more.. and some minor trimming here and there to tidy it up a bit.. I had already tightened her trim up a bit last time.


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## pgr8dnlvr

I don't know anything, about anything, but MAN that second picture of Fergie is SO impressive knowing you don't use wiggles! I don't know how much hairspray is used to get her hair to stand so gloriously, but my gosh, IMPRESSIVE!!!  

I am also trying to figure out the banding method you used in the last few pics? Care to explain at all?

Congrats on having such a gorgeous mpoo! 
Rebecca


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## Ladyscarletthawk

Thank you Rebecca! She has a great solid temperment to boot! She just takes the right glance and she is all over you like a lil jumpin bean helping YOU get her into your arms lol.

Well it wasnt really how much hairspray but what KIND you use. In AK most of the summer/early fall are outside shows so you better have some pretty damn good hairspray lol or your hair is everywhere. Only problem is that you are more apt to break coat when your breaking them down.. thank god for my IOD Isle Strengthner spray, my CC wooden pin brush, and Le Pooch silver brush. That really helped keep coat.

As for my banding, well I banded because I groomed her at work and wrapping takes a lil longer to do so I whipped her hair up really fast lol. I normally band all the way down the back in a single row. Attached is Eve from behind so you can see what I mean..this was years ago when I was showing her.

The picture of Fergie that you really liked had MORE hair than I have her in now. So now Im sitting on her trying to grow more coat, maybe thicker coat.. However I have a lot of short hair I want to grow on her sides and I want to grow that all back and have two rows side by side growing as much coat as possible. If I only had one row then there would be all sorts of coat that I want to grow getting trimmed, this way I can get all the coat I wanna grow and it not slip out of the wrap/band.. at least until she grow enough to put in one row. I hope that makes sense. I will have to take a pic. Also attached a pic of her BOS win fixed lol, and now you see her without twisting your head lol.. I see I need to move the pack back some.. No probs will have plenty of time for that!


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## Agidog

this is my girl after her very first ever English saddle clip, as she is still carrying heaps of puppy fluff was very hard to set the legs quite right at back, but we are hoping that the basic shape is there and now we will work on growing the adult coat in and shaping the rossettes better etc. She is fortuneate to have a gorgeous rear end which makes packing her much easier, Not to much mane yet so this is sparse and needs lots of work on show days. Please ignore the pic quality as late in evening, poor light and i really had not done anything to her head only took photo to demonstrate the clip style.


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