# Brown Poodles and their fading / clearing out color



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Kassie said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am beginning a search for a lovely new companion since my little Mister Hobbs went to rainbow heaven several weeks back. Mister Hobbs was a toy and he was inky black. I thought I would get another little male, not sure if I would get a toy or a miniature. I am exploring options and trying to contemplate deep within me, what size and color I would wish.
> 
> ...


Browns usually fade and it can be to anywhere from a café shade to grizzled out with gray.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

If you want a brown that is going to stay a nice, dark, chocolate color, you'll want a puppy with little or no "fading" colors in the pedigree: no silver, silver beige, blue, or cafe au lait. 

I know of a couple breeders that breed dark browns that stay dark ("dark" meaning they fade with old age like every color except white, but don't turn cafe as youngsters). A good starting point for a mini poodle on the Pacific Coast would be Sally Ciraolo of MiVida Poodles in El Cajon, CA. She was one of my favorite breeders and if we didn't live on opposite ends of the country I would have taken one of her puppies in a heartbeat. She has some puppies on the ground now and one of the available ones is a brown female!!

MiVida Miniature Poodles - Puppies

My mpoo, Ari, is a cafe au lait. She's staying pretty dark, although she's definitely more of a milk chocolate color than a very dark brown.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Oh and...maybe its different in minis than standards. I see that you are asking about toys and minis. But in standards, even with a pedigree of all black and brown, you're almost certainly going to have fading. It's the exception, not the rule, for a brown standard to stay dark.


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## sarahebeth (Feb 16, 2016)

sophie anne said:


> If you want a brown that is going to stay a nice, dark, chocolate color, you'll want a puppy with little or no "fading" colors in the pedigree: no silver, silver beige, blue, or cafe au lait.
> 
> I know of a couple breeders that breed dark browns that stay dark ("dark" meaning they fade with old age like every color except white, but don't turn cafe as youngsters). A good starting point for a mini poodle on the Pacific Coast would be Sally Ciraolo of MiVida Poodles in El Cajon, CA. She was one of my favorite breeders and if we didn't live on opposite ends of the country I would have taken one of her puppies in a heartbeat. She has some puppies on the ground now and one of the available ones is a brown female!!
> 
> ...


Ari is so gorgeous. How big is she now?

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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

sarahebeth said:


> Ari is so gorgeous. How big is she now?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


She's an "oversized mini" at 12 pounds and 15.5" at the shoulder at last weigh in/measuring which was about a month ago. I think she's just about done growing now. Couldn't have asked for a more perfect size! :biggrin:


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

My Beatrice is a cafe but really didn't start fading in ernest until she was 18 months old

Check out both my 52 wek thread and my poodle girls thread to see


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

*A brown PWD with the fading gene*

My poodles have been black and blue, so I cannot comment directly about brown poodles, but Portuguese Water Dogs have a lot in common with poodles. When I brought home my brown PWD (Phoenix) 14 years ago, I was told that there was a fading gene in her line. I did not know what that meant, but she went from dark brown (which I loved) to having light spots all over her face at about age one, and by 2 years, was a lighter color all over which was similar to the cafe au lait color in poodles. I had loved that dark brown color and was very disappointed at first, but over the years had learned to love her lighter color.

I am telling you about my PWD because if you think you cannot accept the possibility of a lighter color coat on a brown poodle, you might be disappointed if she lightens.

I am including some pictures of Phoenix (and me) from when she was one year old and later after she had "cleared" to a kind of cafe color.









The following pictures were when Phoenix was about 3 or 4 years. This lighter color was not from old age.


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

sophie anne said:


> If you want a brown that is going to stay a nice, dark, chocolate color, you'll want a puppy with little or no "fading" colors in the pedigree: no silver, silver beige, blue, or cafe au lait.
> 
> I know of a couple breeders that breed dark browns that stay dark ("dark" meaning they fade with old age like every color except white, but don't turn cafe as youngsters). A good starting point for a mini poodle on the Pacific Coast would be Sally Ciraolo of MiVida Poodles in El Cajon, CA. She was one of my favorite breeders and if we didn't live on opposite ends of the country I would have taken one of her puppies in a heartbeat. She has some puppies on the ground now and one of the available ones is a brown female!!
> 
> ...


Ari is stunningly beautiful. She is cafe au lait? Do you expect her to fade / clear. What an amazing looking poodle and though's eyes. My goodness..... Can I ask where you got her?

Warmest regards

Kim


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Kassie said:


> Ari is stunningly beautiful. She is cafe au lait? Do you expect her to fade / clear. What an amazing looking poodle and though's eyes. My goodness..... Can I ask where you got her?
> 
> Warmest regards
> 
> Kim


I think she'll probably lighten as she gets older, since she's got a mix of blues, cafes, silvers, and silver beiges throughout her pedigree. Both of her littermates (a male and a female) were blues.

Ari came from Amity Valley Kennels in Duluth, MN. Amity has worked a lot with MiVida Poodles over the years, and they have an amicable relationship with each other. I got Ari from Amity because she was born at the right time, in the right place (half as far for me as CA because I'm on the East coast).

The reason I suggested MiVida is that your profile says you're on the Pacific Coast, so MiVida may be closer in your case.

Ari's breeder thinks that she is going to stay fairly dark for a cafe, and since she is considered to be an "expert" in brown minis since she's been breeding them since 1969, I'd say that's likely to be true.

Here is the Amity website: Miniature Poodles - Amity Valley Kennels
On that page, the picture at the top is Ari's grandsire, Frankie, as a young pup. He is a cafe au lait.
Then in the row of pictures below that, the second picture from the left is also Frankie but at ~9 years old. The page also has a lot of good photos of various shades of cafe and silver beige.

I expect Ari to become that color eventually. But if she doesn't turn out as expected, that's part of the fun!


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

sophie anne said:


> I think she'll probably lighten as she gets older, since she's got a mix of blues, cafes, silvers, and silver beiges throughout her pedigree. Both of her littermates (a male and a female) were blues.
> 
> Ari came from Amity Valley Kennels in Duluth, MN. Amity has worked a lot with MiVida Poodles over the years, and they have an amicable relationship with each other. I got Ari from Amity because she was born at the right time, in the right place (half as far for me as CA because I'm on the East coast).
> 
> ...


Ari is the picture of a goddess! I have been in touch with MiVida kennels over the last 10 days. She has females available, and I wish a male. She is expecting a blue litter in May. I am considering. I can drive down the coast, which is what I would do. and you are very correct. I find MiVida's poodles extraordinary.

Thank you for sharing Avi's history.

I so appreciate.

Warm regards,

Kasse


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## sarahebeth (Feb 16, 2016)

sophie anne said:


> She's an "oversized mini" at 12 pounds and 15.5" at the shoulder at last weigh in/measuring which was about a month ago. I think she's just about done growing now. Couldn't have asked for a more perfect size! [emoji3]


She really is beautiful. 

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