# Health Testing Timeline



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Many breeders do Pennhip because they can do it very early and then breed early. I think Pennhip is a fine form of hip evaluation BUT it has to be done later (I like after age 2) because hips change as the dog grows. I think it does no good to hang your hat on a hip evaluation in a 5 month old puppy.

CERF uses a physical exam to check the eyes for PRA. Optigen tests only for a genetic type of blindness known as prcd-PRA. prcd-PRA is found in Minis and Toys, but not in Standards. Minis/Toys should have both Optigen testing and CERF testing. Standards just need CERF testing.

Thyroid is usually run every year. 

The SA test is valuable because it still catches a large number of sub-clinical SA cases. This is when a dog has SA at the cellular level but it has not been physically expressed yet. I would want to see that a Standard poodle under age 5 had been tested clear. Usually by age 5-6 the dog will start showing signs of SA (but not always... I know a couple of dogs who didn't present until after age 8)

Don't forget NE and VWB if you are breeding standards and Patellas and Legg-Calve for Mini/Toys


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Many breeders do Pennhip because they can do it very early and then breed early. I think Pennhip is a fine form of hip evaluation BUT it has to be done later (I like after age 2) because hips change as the dog grows. I think it does no good to hang your hat on a hip evaluation in a 5 month old puppy.
> 
> CERF uses a physical exam to check the eyes for PRA. Optigen tests only for a genetic type of blindness known as prcd-PRA. prcd-PRA is found in Minis and Toys, but not in Standards. Minis/Toys should have both Optigen testing and CERF testing. Standards just need CERF testing.
> 
> ...


Cerf is done once a year on breeding dogs and vWB NE and color tests can be done on puppies but should be done before breeding.. I like to do a prelim on the dogs that I plan to use or show, as at ten months you have a pretty good idea what is what. But his a habit that I formed 20 years ago...


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

Ok. That all makes sense. About the prelims, I read on the OFA site that the majority of readings done on a young dog are the same when done as an adult. To me a prelim would at least give you a basis to go off of. If one fails, then that would save the breeder from spending time and money trying to finish a dog that is not healthy enough to breed. 

Ok, about the color testing. I have not gotten into reading about this at all, but am interested. My bitch is black and both of her parents are very black. Her lineage has maybe one American dog(way back) in it(mostly Australian, Swedish). I really don't have much of a history for her beyond names on a pedigree. How does the color testing work? I know she has more red/apricot colors in her lineage than actual blacks. I would want to breed to get the most vibrant color possible(whatever color that may be). Can you ever go wrong breeding to a black?

Thanks for the feedback by the way. It is nice to have somewhere to go when I come to a deadend on internet research or just tire of going to countless websites


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

I used the DDC for color testing on the reds . It would be interesting for you to do a color test.. The blacks can carry a multitude of colors back behind them . I think that is fabulous that you have apricot and red behind yours ....That is rarehttp://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-dna-coat-color.html


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

And here I was told that not many mini breeders did patellas. It was more important for toy breeders to do patellas.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

KalaMama said:


> Ok. That all makes sense. About the prelims, I read on the OFA site that the majority of readings done on a young dog are the same when done as an adult. To me a prelim would at least give you a basis to go off of. If one fails, then that would save the breeder from spending time and money trying to finish a dog that is not healthy enough to breed.
> 
> Ok, about the color testing. I have not gotten into reading about this at all, but am interested. My bitch is black and both of her parents are very black. Her lineage has maybe one American dog(way back) in it(mostly Australian, Swedish). I really don't have much of a history for her beyond names on a pedigree. How does the color testing work? I know she has more red/apricot colors in her lineage than actual blacks. I would want to breed to get the most vibrant color possible(whatever color that may be). Can you ever go wrong breeding to a black?


I think color testing just gives you more information and helps you make a more informed decision. If your girl carries Cream and you breed to a Black stud who also carries cream, you theoretically can expect that 25% of your litter will be cream. With apricot and red behind, you might even get those colors. 

If you already have very good blacks, I would concentrate on going forward with that color. Are you going to use a local stud or are you going to ship over semen?


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

You've started a good thread!
And it would be fun to see the pedigree you are talking about. Sounds interesting... 
I agree, color wise, to stay with black, if you have something wonderful. Are the parents staying an inky black? (no grizzling other than a few hairs here and there?)

I suggest doing a hip prelim, for the reasons you gave. Before putting too much time and money into showing. I have a male ready to go out and I will be doing his prelim, CERF and full blood work/thyroid now (he is 1 1/2 years old) Once those are completed and results are good... you continue with the rest. (NE, DM and yes the darn SA, at least once before breeding.) Do you know if puppy is clear of VWD?

I would also take advantate of discounted clinics checking on heart function. It's so expensive ($600 to $700) so if that is nearby, you are fortunate.
(I was told not to test for this until 2 years old. Not sure if anyone has a different thought on it.)


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## Eklectic (Nov 9, 2009)

This is indeed a great thread, even for those like me who do not intend to breed!!

It is good to know what testing goes into a breeding so you know (as much as you can) to insure a healthy pup!

I know in Maltese liver shunt is a problem. Is it in poodles and what are the tests for that?


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I think color testing just gives you more information and helps you make a more informed decision. If your girl carries Cream and you breed to a Black stud who also carries cream, you theoretically can expect that 25% of your litter will be cream. With apricot and red behind, you might even get those colors.
> 
> If you already have very good blacks, I would concentrate on going forward with that color. Are you going to use a local stud or are you going to ship over semen?


Most likely, I would have to use an outside stud/semen. There are very few good breeders here that health test their dogs. Honestly, my pup's parents were not health tested nor show dogs. However, this litter was the first I have seen since moving to Oahu and I wanted a Standard so badly. We can not import from the mainland without a long quarantine period or without someone keeping the pup till they are around 8-9 months of age to get the titer test done. So I didn't really follow the rules of getting a health tested pup, but I wasn't as smart about a few months ago as I am now. Therefore, I am really starting from scratch with her as far as a health history and everything. She was picked by an avid Poodle showman to be the potential show pup of the litter, but I really know how much potential she has. The show scene is so small here anyway. I want to learn with her and see what we can do. I would certainly never consider breeding her until all her health test were clear and after 2 years of age even if she did finish her championship. I also understand the importance of having a history of health tested parents/grandparents, but it has to start somewhere I guess. 

Thank you for your input. Very helpful.


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

desertreef said:


> You've started a good thread!
> And it would be fun to see the pedigree you are talking about. Sounds interesting...
> I agree, color wise, to stay with black, if you have something wonderful. Are the parents staying an inky black? (no grizzling other than a few hairs here and there?)
> 
> ...


I am at a big disadvantage as far as testing goes. I don't think there will be any clinics here. I will certainly look out for them but the show scene is small. I would love to share her pedigree and find out any good or possibly bad things about it. Knowledge is power I have it all written out right now, but I will try to put it on some type of pedigree generator and attach it here. 

Her parents' coloring is very black but she(like her father) has the smallest bit of brown(maybe 3 inches wide) right behind the bottom of her front 2 feet. It is very small and you have to be looking very closely to see. I think it is actually called apricot though.

Health testing- since I am completely starting from scratch with her I think prelims would be helpful also. I have nothing right now. I guess I could start with the VWD, then thryoid panel and cerf.

Thanks!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

KalaMama said:


> Her parents' coloring is very black but she(like her father) has the smallest bit of brown(maybe 3 inches wide) right behind the bottom of her front 2 feet. It is very small and you have to be looking very closely to see. I think it is actually called apricot though.


Can you take a picture of this? Is she a Phantom?



> Health testing- since I am completely starting from scratch with her I think prelims would be helpful also. I have nothing right now. I guess I could start with the VWD, then thryoid panel and cerf.


Having no health testing on the parents is going to set you back. So often health issues skip a generation. I'm not saying that you shouldn't go forward, but in some ways you will be flying blind because you don't know what is behind your girl.


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Can you take a picture of this? Is she a Phantom?
> 
> I sure hope not. She couldn't show in conformation then I assume? I will try to get a photo today.
> 
> Having no health testing on the parents is going to set you back. So often health issues skip a generation. I'm not saying that you shouldn't go forward, but in some ways you will be flying blind because you don't know what is behind your girl.


Yes, it is possible that the grandparents were health tested but I do not know that or the results so that doesn't help me at all. Oh well I have plenty of time between now and then and lots of hoops to jump through before it would even be relevant I guess. It is fun understanding it all though.


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

desertreef said:


> You've started a good thread!
> And it would be fun to see the pedigree you are talking about. Sounds interesting...
> 
> I dont think it is anything impressive but here it is
> ...


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

http://www.poodlepedigree.com/fivegen.asp?ID=377676&type=color if you can open it there are some colors there..


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KalaMama said:


> desertreef said:
> 
> 
> > You've started a good thread!
> ...


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Can somebody please explain to me Neonatal Encephalopathy more closely :rolffleyes:

Is that common condition in Standards and if a puppy is deemed a "carrier" - than it means that at least one of the parents is a "carrier" too - right ?

So, is it a common practice to still use the same breeding pair even though they produce "carriers" in their litters ??? Is it OK to show a known "carrier" ???


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/ataxia/NE-StdP.htm
here is the website that may help with some of your questions.. 
i have a problem with breeding carriers but that is just me.. i think breeding dogs should be "clear" However that iis depending on what the dog brings to the breed .


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Can somebody please explain to me Neonatal Encephalopathy more closely :rolffleyes:
> 
> Is that common condition in Standards
> ---
> ...


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks a lot for your answers  !!! 

There is ALWAYS so much more to learn - that is why I love this site so much !


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Can you take a picture of this? Is she a Phantom?
> 
> 
> 
> I finally got a chance to take a pic of her brown. It is not noticeable unless you are eye level with her feet(on a grooming table) or pick her foot up and pull the hair up to see the brown around her front two feet. Pictured below and the other pic is the black coat that is everywhere else.[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

desertreef said:


> You've started a good thread!
> And it would be fun to see the pedigree you are talking about. Sounds interesting...
> 
> I dont think it is anything impressive but here it is
> ...


They are australian lines, english and swedish, I also see that there are some NZ CHs too!

http://www.shertonahpoodles.com/

I would say the grandparents and before are health tested, but this is by no means a guarantee, you should give them an email, I'm sure they would be happy to help


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Can somebody please explain to me Neonatal Encephalopathy more closely :rolffleyes:
> 
> Is that common condition in Standards and if a puppy is deemed a "carrier" - than it means that at least one of the parents is a "carrier" too - right ?
> 
> So, is it a common practice to still use the same breeding pair even though they produce "carriers" in their litters ??? Is it OK to show a known "carrier" ???


Basically, if one parent is a carrier *Aa* (*A* being non-carrier, *a* being carrier) then you would breed to a non carrier *AA*

This would ensure that the puppies would not be affected, and could only be carriers, *Aa* and *AA*

So, it is technically okay to breed carriers, as long as you test appropriately.
But really, it would be best to breed out carriers, as then you wouldn't have to worry about it at all! = Less money spent on testing


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## TinyPoodles (Nov 25, 2009)

Can you ever go wrong breeding to a black?

*YES !! *Black is what ever is behind it (carrying).
So depends on what colour you are trying to improve or keep.

So if you are breeding for Brown and that black is carrying cream, red, silver, blue then you take a HUGE chance of getting browns with mismark and light eyes and noses and of course fading. 

IF you are breeding for Black and that black is carrying dilutes that will not be producing the greatest blacks.

Keep in mind you have to ALWAYS look at what is behind your dog and not "just" what you "see" in front of you.


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## TinyPoodles (Nov 25, 2009)

*Tests*

*


KalaMama said:



Hi. I have been researching health testing. I am trying to get a handle on the tests that need to be performed for Standards and the timeline. For right now, my girl is only a pup and we won't enter the show ring until next year, but I enjoy learning and researching anyway. What tests are absolutely necessary and when are they to be performed?

I know OFA should be done after the 2 yr mark. CHECK That leads me to another question. What about PennHip? Is it becoming obsolete because OFA is more comprehensive? Okay, back to the topic at hand.

Click to expand...

*


KalaMama said:


> *Cerf is to be done once a year. CHECK
> 
> PRA test can be done with a cheek swab at anytime. CHECK
> 
> ...





Maybe this will make it easier to follow ?

Tests for Standard Poodles you only have to do one time:

Hips at 24 months of age (not sooner for Permanent OFA certification)
http://www.offa.org/apps.html

Preliminary Hip Evaluation by OFA (12 months of age for prelim certificate but will evaluate with high accuracy at 4 months of age).
http://www.offa.org/samplecerts.html#prelimrpt

http://research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhip/GeneralInformation/WhatisPennHIP/tabid/3232/Default.aspx PennHip (Pennsylvania Hip Improvement Program)<BR><BR>

Elbows (Xray 24 months of age), 
http://www.offa.org/samplecerts.html#hiprpt
OFA - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals 

Patellar Luxation (Vet feels and gives opinion)
http://www.offa.org/samplecerts.html#hiprpt
OFA - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals 

Cardiac (Vet or higher designation listens and evaluates in office)
http://www.offa.org/apps.html
OFA - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals 


Thyroid (12 months of age) (blood drawn)
http://www.offa.org/apps.html
OFA - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals 


vWD (Von Willebrand's Disease) any age (cheek swab):
http://www.vetgen.com/canine-vwd1.html
VetGen Lab

PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy in Toy and Miniature Poodles only) AGE ?? <BR>
http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_pra_poodle.html
OptiGen

NE (Neonatal Encephalopathy) Swab by you any age
http://www.vetgen.com/canine-neonatal-encephalopathy.html 
VetGen Labs 

NEwS - (Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures) any age swab done by you
http://www.offa.org/apps.html
OFA - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (News)

DM (Degenerative Myelopathy) Cheek swab done by you any age

http://www.offa.org/dnatesting
OFA - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

I found this website that has lots of genetic tests for dogs(and other animals). Has anyone had experience with them? Are there any tests here that would be beneficial to test on a Spoo? I know the dm, ne, vwd but there are many more listed.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

KalaMama said:


> I finally got a chance to take a pic of her brown. It is not noticeable unless you are eye level with her feet(on a grooming table) or pick her foot up and pull the hair up to see the brown around her front two feet.


Hummm... I'm guessing that this is some sort of mismark, though I've never seen one like it. I wonder if it would be part of the Phantom spectrum.

Anyway.... any non-solid color is a disqualifying fault in AKC. If a judge sees it you run the risk of being excused. I would also not want to breed this forward since you may get mismarked puppies.


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Hummm... I'm guessing that this is some sort of mismark, though I've never seen one like it. I wonder if it would be part of the Phantom spectrum.
> 
> Anyway.... any non-solid color is a disqualifying fault in AKC. If a judge sees it you run the risk of being excused. I would also not want to breed this forward since you may get mismarked puppies.


I was told it looked like it was from having the dewclaws removed(they cut a nerve or something). Have you ever heard of this? So, since she has this she can not be shown in AKC conformation? Bummer.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

KalaMama said:


> I was told it looked like it was from having the dewclaws removed(they cut a nerve or something). Have you ever heard of this? So, since she has this she can not be shown in AKC conformation? Bummer.


Didn't you mention that her parents had similar markings? If so, then I would think that it is genetic coloring. 

Usually when damage has been done to a part of the body on a Black dog, the skin loses its pigment. It is not uncommon to see a white spot on the ear of a Poodle who has had its ears banded too close to the ear leather. In lighter colored poodles, the color seems to come in darker. I've seen light Silvers with dark splotches where they have gotten cut.  

Can you show her? Yes. Do you run the risk of being excused if a judge sees it? Yes. 

I think the bigger question is: Do you want to go forward and breed this? I can't answer that for you. Personally I would not breed a mismarked Poodle. I think it is hard enough to get a good show/breeding quality puppy without factoring in mismarks. If you are not planning on breeding this bitch, why spend the time and money finishing her?


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Didn't you mention that her parents had similar markings? If so, then I would think that it is genetic coloring.
> 
> Yes, I have never seen the father but he did have this also.
> Usually when damage has been done to a part of the body on a Black dog, the skin loses its pigment. It is not uncommon to see a white spot on the ear of a Poodle who has had its ears banded too close to the ear leather. In lighter colored poodles, the color seems to come in darker. I've seen light Silvers with dark splotches where they have gotten cut.
> ...


Yes, I see your point. Just a thought, if I color tested her it might be able to pinpoint what type of gene is causing this coloring. Not that it matters now. 

Thanks for the input I am so sad


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