# osteochondritis dissecans



## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I am in close contact with Lucky's littermate named Murphy, who was recently diagnosed with osteochondritis dissecans. It happened when they were playing fetch and he started limping due to shoulder issues. I've taken Lucky to swim -hydrotherapy lessons and one of the instructors told me to perhaps have the vet take a look at his shoulders because he isn't raising it like a proper dog. The hydrotherapist instructor had 5 golden retrievers and works with senior dogs with joint issues. The instructor told me it is probably nothing but just have it checked out to be safe. Now Murphy got diagnosed with osteochondritis dissecans and I am worried. I've had Lucky's hips X-rayed but I am not sure it included his shoulders. His hips are excellent and the vet said he has no elbow dysplasia but we never checked the shoulders. I read up on osteochondritis dissecans and it seems to be congenital. Should I go get his shoulders X-rayed? What should I advise Murphy's mom? The breeder's contract said replacement dog but I doubt she'd want to give up Murphy. The corrective surgery would be expensive and I don't know what advice to give to the poor girl. I'm unsure what to do myself. Both Murphy and Lucky are 8 months old right now and Murphy has to be crated so he doesn't hurt himself. I did want to say Murphy was neutered at 5 months so I wonder if early neutering too early could have caused it. I don't really think so. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I just read the entry about this on PetMD. It does sound fairly grim, doesn't it?

For your own interests in terms of Lucky and his service dog future, I would go to your vet with the information about Murphy's diagnosis. I rather doubt that any joints other than Lucky's hips have been x rayed. I would tell the vet about the hydrotherapist's comments about how he moves his shoulders. It seems quite clear that the stage is set for this condition early on in utero. Hopefully OD can be clearly ruled out for Lucky, but if not then you can make a plan for his care and management related to the diagnosis. Also, if yes, you can be certain that there was nothing you could have done to prevent it.

As far as Murphy is concerned since this is a congenital and presumably genetically based disorder I think you can reassure his owner that none of this is her fault. I think you need to cancel those play dates and maybe turn them into leisurely on leash walks as Murphy is able to do. For advise I don't know that there is any to give. Murphy's family will need to decide what to do. Everyone of us has different tolerances for things like health care decisions for not only ourselves, but also our companion animals. and we all have different financial resources to devote to executing those decisions. Sometimes I think there is nothing we can really helpfully offer other than a kind ear and I tend to think this may be one of those moments.

I hope Lucky is free and clear.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I don't know much about this condition and don't have a lot of concrete advice for you, but I'm sorry you're going through something so stressful. 

I do think it would be good to get this checked out sooner rather than later. It can be scary to get something checked because it feels like that could somehow make the diagnosis happen, when before it wasn't "real"...but in reality, if they find OD then it's because he's always had it. And if they don't find it, it's because it was never there. If there are specific management or treatment steps you could take now, then it's better to know about them early.

Sorry for you and Murphy's owner who are struggling with this. If this is a congenital condition, then I would also caution against taking this breeder up on the offer of a replacement puppy. You don't want to end up going through this twice.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

The breeder is a nice old woman who has kept tabs on all her puppies but I was a little surprised about this. She text us often and ask us how our dogs are doing with training and healthwise in general. I really do believe she cares for the future of her dogs. I don't know if something like this could have been OFA tested. I do know people who had OFA cleared dogs who ended up with puppies with hip dysplasia. I am hoping I got lucky with Lucky and he is free and clear. So far he has not been neutered and it makes me want to put it off even further. 


I think Murphy's mom is too shy to ask for financial aid from the breeder since it says on the contract for a replacement dog. I am unsure how much surgery is gonna cost but Murphy has not improved in the two weeks since he started limping. Surgery is several thousand dollars. Yikes.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

This is so sad  I hope the gal does speak up to the breeder. If the breeder is willing to replace a pup, maybe she'd put that much money toward the surgery instead.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

My contracts offer a replacement dog too, but I am not required to return the original dog. Does your contract require that? I would encourage your friend to at least talk with the breeder and see what she will do. I do have a fellow co-op member with a Dane from a not so great breeder with multiple health problems, including OD. She had surgery at 10 months and is doing ok now.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

oshagcj914 said:


> My contracts offer a replacement dog too, but I am not required to return the original dog. Does your contract require that? I would encourage your friend to at least talk with the breeder and see what she will do. I do have a fellow co-op member with a Dane from a not so great breeder with multiple health problems, including OD. She had surgery at 10 months and is doing ok now.


Our contracts does not require the return of the dog but I don't know if she wants another puppy. That seems like a lot of work especially if it also has the same issues. I saw that nutrients can prevent issues but I was wondering if neutering too young can be a problem. I've talked to a very good Great Dane breeder and he doesn't recommend it until past 13 months. But Danes are much larger.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I'm so sorry to hear about Lucky's littermate. I know you must be sooo worried about Lucky and you should get an X-ray to find out rather than 'waiting for the other shoe to drop'........I would want an answer rather than have to worry myself sick! Hoping for the best for all concerned XOXOXO's from me and Molly.


P.S. I too read about nutrition affecting dogs with a predisposition to OCD during periods of rapid growth, it does make you think that the early neuter could play into it as the bones grow longer, and faster if nutrition is not managed properly............there seems to be several contributing factors though!


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

snow0160 said:


> Our contracts does not require the return of the dog but I don't know if she wants another puppy. That seems like a lot of work especially if it also has the same issues. I saw that nutrients can prevent issues but I was wondering if neutering too young can be a problem. I've talked to a very good Great Dane breeder and he doesn't recommend it until past 13 months. But Danes are much larger.


Early spay/neuter causes the growth plates in the long bones to have delayed closure, so it leads to unnatural joint angles. Usually that's a problem at the stifle and leads to increased risk of CCL tear. Best practice as far as that issue is to alter after the growth plates are closed, so usually 18-24+ months in Danes. I like to leave mine intact until around age 2, later for males or potentially not at all depending on the dog. Asaah was spayed at 2 1/2 because I don't want to deal with heat cycles and had an intact male. But there are other things to consider, like the owner's comfort level and experience in managing an intact dog. I don't know that early spay and neuter necessarily contributes to OD. Maybe it was an inherited thing, or maybe she just got unlucky. My contract states a replacement puppy, but not necessarily right away. Maybe your friend could wait until her dog is older...though if it were my dog, I would be speaking with the breeder about what else she could do, like providing financial help. I'd also suggest having Lucky examined and x rayed, just so you know what you're dealing with.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I was very sorry to read about Lucky's littermate's diagnosis. I had to look the condition up and there do appear to be surgical options. Nice to read from osha that a GD is doing well after the surgery. I would want to know ASAP since Lucky is going to be your service partner. Everything crossed that he does not have OC.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

definitely get lucky checked, esp. since he is meant to be a service dog. best way to be fair to both of you.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I don't think very many breeders would help pay vet bills even for a genetic condition, especially when not contractually obligated to do so. The breeder should cease breeding the pair and advise every littermate of Murphy's and Lucky's of the OC diagnosis if she is sweet as she seems. I do hope Lucky lives up to his name


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Wow, poor Murphy, and I hope that Lucky is free of this disease. I agree with everyone else. Lucky is meant to be your service dog and you are investing a lot of time and money to train him so you should discuss this with your vet and get Lucky checked.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

*Update*

Thank you all for such great advice. This community is truly amazing! I am so thankful for all of your helpful advice. Sorry I had not followed up sooner but got injured from falling down a ladder putting up outdoor Christmas lights. Thankfully, I have no broken bones and am just badly bruised and have a gouge on my leg. 

I took Lucky to see my vet and after conducting a physical, he said I didn't need to X-ray Lucky because almost every case of OCD he has seen has been a dog who clearly limps around. He was "confident" he did not have OCD. However, I decided to get the radiographs anyways. 1. Peace of Mind 2. He is right most people only take their dogs to vets when there is something wrong so obviously, every case he has seen involved a dog that already exhibited symptoms. Sorry, I don't trust the medical professions as much because I come from three generation of doctors and they are all very different people. I've known they've been wrong so many times, and I've been a victim of medical malpractice myself in college with a doctor misdiagnosing me. I am gonna say that nothing is worse than contradicting a doctor because they area ALWAYS sure of themselves. Medical school must teach them that kind of confidence and to see the world in black and white. Although my vet wasn't too unhappy that I got the x-rays. My vet is a really good guy and I am not sorry that I have to drive 2 hour round trip to see him every time. The close by vets are very commercial and are always trying to sell me something. 

Results: 
So I left Lucky at the vet because they had to sedate him. When I picked him up, the doctor said he is free of OCD from the results of his xray. THANK YOU JESUS! I've included a copy here. I think I truly did get Lucky with Lucky. I also showed a photo of Murphy radiograph and he said it looked really bad and there is no chance the dog could get away healing naturally. He needed surgery to recover and walk. I will include photo of their xray when I can move around a bit easier after my injury. So far the mac does not read the windows image files.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

That's very good news


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

Excellent! A good Christmas present for you, peace of mind on this score. Now you just need to heal quickly.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am sighing a big sigh of relief with and for you. I am sorry about Murphy, but that will have to be the other family's issue to deal with. Maybe they can apply for Care Credit.

I am sorry you fell. I hope you heal up quickly. Don't push too hard too fast.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

snow0160 said:


> Our contracts does not require the return of the dog but I don't know if she wants another puppy. That seems like a lot of work especially if it also has the same issues. I saw that nutrients can prevent issues but I was wondering if neutering too young can be a problem. I've talked to a very good Great Dane breeder and he doesn't recommend it until past 13 months. But Danes are much larger.



Can she take the replacement dog and sell it to cover the expense of the surgery, at least partially ? She could leave the puppy at the breeder's and sell it from there, or even ask the breeder for money instead of a puppy.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

That does seem like a good idea


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

As in, take the replacement puppy and sell it herself? I can't think of any breeder worth a dang who would be ok with that. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but that just seems wrong, like you're using a living thing to make some cash. If she doesn't want a replacement puppy, I'd just ask if the breeder would be willing to chip in for the surgery. Although her contract says nothing about that, so she may just be out of luck. That's a risk you take when buying an living animal. But she won't know unless she talks to the breeder.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

That is wonderful news for you and Lucky! WHEW!!!! Not so good news ab out your fall. Hope you are well and pain free real soon. Hugs!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Phew! Glad to hear the good news! Not glad that you are hurt though! Take care of your bumps and bruises and hope you aren't hurtin' too long! Perhaps a little eggnog and rum would help! LOL!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I am SO relieved for you. I would have wanted the X-rays too, given the pool therapist's comment.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

good news - you got your christmas present early. health is wealth, as a friend of my mother's used to say.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

That's wonderful news about Lucky - hopefully you'll be feeling better soon so you can enjoy all the upcoming festivities.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am so glad to hear that Lucky is in the clear, and think the x-rays will prove more than worth the cost - without proof you would have suffered stomach clenching anxiety every time he was a little off colour or lifted a paw oddly. I hope your own bumps and bruises clear quickly - that sounds a painful fall.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I reread my last post and realized parts are incoherent. I've been getting up very early in the morning for no apparent reason. I'm always up by 6am even if I sleep at midnight and so the first thing I write isn't my best. My parents make fun of me and says I am getting old! My 92 year old grandma has similar hours. Lol [emoji23] 

It is actually 5:30 am right now. The vet sent me home with this windows cds with the radiography results and I've tried multiple times on my window to read them but they are for windows Vista computers so I can't extract the image. I wish he just sent it via email in PDF or jpeg so I can access it and post it here. I always like to look at my own X-rays. 

Anyhow I realized I promised photos in the last post but I only have my recent Christmas lights and shopping photos from yesterday. I hobbled around the mall searching for gifts against my fiancé's wishes and it didn't look good at the end of the day but I was happy with my purchase. Hehe






































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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Hi Snow!
I don't know how I missed this post, but I read it now. I'm so glad to hear that Lucky's ok! I'm glad you pushed for that x-ray since you must feel so much better. No more agonizing over this!

I'm sorry about your friend, though. I hope she and Murphy will find a good solution.  

Also, I hope you heal soon! Your wound looks so painful!!! And is that your home's pool??? So heavenly! You must start planning us an annual party for PF!! 

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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh my, you shouldn't have gone anywhere yesterday! I hope you will rest for a couple of days and give yourself a real chance to heal. And I would put some neosporin on that wound and cover it.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Murphy's mom texted me this photo and said Lucky's littermate's results look like this.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Here is Lucky's X-ray
























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