# Fulls Rights and Contracts



## partigirl1998 (Apr 23, 2021)

Hi all! I know I posted here a few days ago about my search of a silver beige puppy. I was fortunate to be offered a stunning SB/cafe au lait solid female. Her parents are both titled and are tested beyond CHIC requirements. Everything I wanted. Though now I'm stuck. I talked to them about full rights and what my plan is with this puppy. Ultimately to do AKC sports and show in UKC - and start my own breeding program one day if it works out that way. I understand that not a lot of reputable breeders will sell outright. Generally they will offer co owns, or will have requirements that need to be met before getting full rights signed over. I am okay with this. I plan on doing this correctly. However, this particular breeder had these requirements : 
_"If you are interested in getting involved in poodles- here are some of our outlines in order to obtain full registration. Some of our requirements for full registration are as followed: 
-Fully health tested beyond the CHIC requirements (exactly what is outlined in the contract)
-UKC championship -CGC and TKN at the minimum but we do encourage to seek out more especially if you are wanting to do sports









We will assist you in selecting a suitable stud and if you need help welping, raising the puppies, etc
Avidog
We will also get pick female from the first litter that will return to us to join our breeding program."
_

I'd also like to add that the puppy is priced at $4000 for limited and then when I want full signed over it's another $1000. So in reality the price of the puppy is $5K plus POL. This doesn't sit quite right with me in my opinion just because I would be putting a ton of work into this dog only for them to be a step ahead of me with a puppy that I produced out of a successful dam, plus I have to pay more money. Price isn't a problem with me but the puppy is.

Am I crazy or is this asking too much?


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

It's the very rare good breeder that will sign over full registration on a nice puppy, especially a bitch, to a newbie that they don't know. Even more so if that newbie has already said that their intention is to start breeding. Showing you are dedicated enough to put time and money into titling and testing your bitch before lifting the Limited Registration is quite reasonable, IMO. Getting the pick bitch puppy from your first litter might be a bit unusual? I would definitely want more details on what constitutes both a "litter" and a "pick puppy", and have it specifically spelled out in the contract what would happen if there were no bitches in the litter, or if the litter was a singleton bitch pup, et cetera. 

So, I guess it depends on how much you really want this bitch, and how dedicated you will be to making her the best possible foundation bitch she can be.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

That price seems high for limited registration. Is this in California? Also what do you mean silver beige/cafe au lait? It's either one or the other.


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## partigirl1998 (Apr 23, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> That price seems high for limited registration. Is this in California? Also what do you mean silver beige/cafe au lait? It's either one or the other.


I agree. This is in Florida. The puppy is brown, not old enough to see color come through. They aren't sure if it will be SB or cafe au lait. Could be either or with parents color genetics according to breeder.


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## partigirl1998 (Apr 23, 2021)

TeamHellhound said:


> It's the very rare good breeder that will sign over full registration on a nice puppy, especially a bitch, to a newbie that they don't know. Even more so if that newbie has already said that their intention is to start breeding. Showing you are dedicated enough to put time and money into titling and testing your bitch before lifting the Limited Registration is quite reasonable, IMO. Getting the pick bitch puppy from your first litter might be a bit unusual? I would definitely want more details on what constitutes both a "litter" and a "pick puppy", and have it specifically spelled out in the contract what would happen if there were no bitches in the litter, or if the litter was a singleton bitch pup, et cetera.
> 
> So, I guess it depends on how much you really want this bitch, and how dedicated you will be to making her the best possible foundation bitch she can be.


Yes I totally understood wanting to see work put into a puppy and titles before signing over registration. I expect that at this point. I was just thrown by the wanting a pick bitch. I was also worried about what would happen if their was no female or it was a very small litter. She is sending over the contract tonight. 

I really do think she would be a great foundation bitch, but I also don't want to be screwed over because I'm new to this world. I'm hesitant because of this and I haven't said no because this could be a really strong prospect.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

partigirl1998 said:


> I talked to them about full rights and what my plan is with this puppy. Ultimately to do AKC sports and show in UKC - and start my own breeding program one day if it works out that way... in reality the price of the puppy is $5K plus POL.


If you're expected to give back only one pup from only one litter, which would pick of the litter (POL), that part is very reasonable. Many breeders who have this sort of contract wants the buyer to produce *three* litters and return *all* the puppies.



partigirl1998 said:


> "_Some of our requirements for full registration are as followed:
> -Fully health tested beyond the CHIC requirements (exactly what is outlined in the contract)
> -*UKC championship -CGC and TKN at the minimum*_



This could be much more of a challenge and run up costs in time & money far beyond $5K, so you'd need to be really serious and 100% committed. 
You'd have the costs of keeping your poodle's coat impeccably groomed so it will be presentable for showing. Finder a groomer who can do show coats isn't easy, and is expensive.
You'd have to take your poodle to various training classes, and so it would know how to act in a show ring.
Unless you become really skilled, you'd have to hire a handler to take your poodle on the road to shows or to meet you at shows. This can cost in the thousands of dollars.
You live in Tennessee. What if your poodle doesn't like traveling long distances to out of state shows, and panics in cars? Or what if she hates being in shows around so many other dogs and people? I've heard it before and believe it: show dogs are born, not made.
What if your pup doesn't grow into having the perfect body conformation (known as the Breed Standard, see illustrations) that lends itself to winning shows? It's sire and dam may be champions, but not produce any potential champions in every litter. This routinely happens. So then what? Would that mean you never get the green light to breed her?



partigirl1998 said:


> Generally they will offer co owns, *or* will have requirements that need to be met before getting full rights signed over.



Worth mentioning is that if the breeder is the only one listed on the registration, then *all the credit* goes to her for this winning poodle, even though you put in the hard work and cash. Just my opinion, but I've always viewed this as free advertising for the breeder-owner since everyone is ooh'ing and ahh'ing over "her" dog.
If you're not listed as a co-owner from the beginning, what if the original breeder dies before requirements are fulfilled? Is it in the contract that the registration automatically goes to you if you're not listed as the co-owner? If not, her heirs could claim the dog. This must be in writing.

If you are *risk-avoidant* by temperament, or tire easily, this might not be the ideal situation for you.

If you're a *risk-taker* with plenty of energy, enough money for the above-mentioned, and determined to break into the show world, and the breeder's dogs are truly well-breed specimens, you'll probably do fine.

If you mainly want to have a nice poodle as a pet with hopes to breed a litter 2+ years from now, you don't need to jump through all those hoops. You can search for a "just okay" breeder who doesn't show but at least does the basic DNA and other health testing (see documentation of this), and will sell you a pup with full registration.

Or you could negotiate $6K to own a female pup outright with full registration and no strings attached. It would be interesting to see if she goes for this. It's a lot of money, but if you absolutely plan on breeding even one time, you'd get that money back plus more with the first litter (assuming your girl doesn't need a C-section or she or the litter doesn't die in childbirth). And you wouldn't be under pressure in learning the trade, training, handling, going to activities, and showing, then reporting all this back to the breeder.

Lastly if you haven't already, it's a good idea to attend to several dog shows, watched sports activities, stayed the whole time, talked with show folk, owners and handlers, and thoroughly enjoyed it. Ideally do that before getting a pup, since there will always be a pup somewhere you can buy, thus no need to rush on this particular litter. And you might meet a great breeder willing to work with you at a show.

Good luck.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Vita said:


> If you mainly want to have a nice poodle as a pet with hopes to breed a litter 2+ years from now, you don't need to jump through all those hoops.


She does specifically want a poodle for AKC dog sports, showing in UKC, and starting a breeding program, but the cost and time burden is nevertheless eye opening to me!

I’m finding this thread to be a fascinating glimpse into what goes into being the sort of breeder that is generally recommended here. I hope you’ll continue sharing this journey with us, @partigirl1998.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

A UKC championship isn't nearly as difficult to obtain as an AKC championship. Since UKC allows any clip, there's not as much grooming maintenance required. Also, professional handlers aren't allowed in UKC, so there isn't that expense.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I don't have experience in this kind of situation, but it seems to me that one pick puppy is a fair price to pay for a quality breeder-mentor.
If they will be mentoring you in the showing world as well, it seems like this would be a great option for a newbie.


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## EVpoodle (Sep 25, 2018)

TeamHellhound said:


> A UKC championship isn't nearly as difficult to obtain as an AKC championship. Since UKC allows any clip, there's not as much grooming maintenance required. Also, professional handlers aren't allowed in UKC, so there isn't that expense.


If we are both talking about the United Kennel Club they actually do not allow any clip they only allow Puppy Clip, English Saddle, Continental, and Sporting Clip.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I have bred and shown poodles for many years. When a person who has no background in breeding and showing dogs wants to buy a female puppy so they can breed her, I strongly discourage them. Instead, I recommend they get involved in local dog clubs and activities and learn all they can about the breed. If they do persist, I mentor them just as I was mentored.

It is really important to learn about the breed and the background of a particular animal before attempting to breed from it. The goal of breeding should be to produce animals that are at least as good as the sire and dam and preferably better. The dog you intend to use for breeding should be an excellent example of the breed both with regard to the breed standard and with excellent health testing results. Furthermore, it should have parents, grandparents, and great grandparents who are of excellent quality and health.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

What I'm really curious about is if a breeder would accept the huge amount of more than $5K to purchase a pup with show potential and unlimited registration and no strings attached. I'm not sure how I would feel or what to think if one agreed to this... I'd want to bring an unbiased show breeder with me to assess it and the parents, but then that would be a consultation and you'd probably have to pay for this.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

EVpoodle said:


> If we are both talking about the United Kennel Club they actually do not allow any clip they only allow Puppy Clip, English Saddle, Continental, and Sporting Clip.


Those are the traditional clips mentioned in the standard, yes. However, there are a lot of Poodles, especially standards, that show in a German clip. Unlike the AKC standard, there is no DQ for the dog not being in one of the traditional clips.


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## EVpoodle (Sep 25, 2018)

TeamHellhound said:


> Those are the traditional clips mentioned in the standard, yes. However, there are a lot of Poodles, especially standards, that show in a German clip. Unlike the AKC standard, there is no DQ for the dog not being in one of the traditional clips.


That is true to an extent but, the breed standard says:
*COAT*
"The Standard Poodle has harsh, dense, curly coat. For conformation exhibition, the coat may be presented naturally, corded, or in one of the traditional clips described below. Quality is never to be sacrificed in favor of the type of clip in which a dog is presented."

If the judge were to be following the breed standard they should not place a dog in a non-traditional clip as it goes against the breed standard. Also, what makes it be a German clip as opposed to a Sporting clip or a Puppy clip?


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## partigirl1998 (Apr 23, 2021)

Johanna said:


> I have bred and shown poodles for many years. When a person who has no background in breeding and showing dogs wants to buy a female puppy so they can breed her, I strongly discourage them. Instead, I recommend they get involved in local dog clubs and activities and learn all they can about the breed. If they do persist, I mentor them just as I was mentored.
> 
> It is really important to learn about the breed and the background of a particular animal before attempting to breed from it. The goal of breeding should be to produce animals that are at least as good as the sire and dam and preferably better. The dog you intend to use for breeding should be an excellent example of the breed both with regard to the breed standard and with excellent health testing results. Furthermore, it should have parents, grandparents, and great grandparents who are of excellent quality and health.


Respectfully, this is not a decision I made last week. I’ve bred corgis for years. I’m switching to poodles MAINLY because genetically they tend to be more sound. There’s other reasons I have switched. I’m not new to breeding or to show. I have a few mentors and have for over the past year. I’ve gone to watch several AKC sports and UKC shows JUST to watch poodles. This was just to get in the rhythm of going to shows and learn how they work and what breed standard looks like for poodles. I’m in the veterinary field and I have done tons of research. This is the only reason why I know that for a good show quality and health backed dog I may have to pay a higher price tag and may have to follow some conditions. I consider this deal just because they tested beyond CHIC and are very well known reputable breeders. My mentors agreed that this was a strange deal. That’s why I came here.


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## partigirl1998 (Apr 23, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> She does specifically want a poodle for AKC dog sports, showing in UKC, and starting a breeding program, but the cost and time burden is nevertheless eye opening to me!
> 
> I’m finding this thread to be a fascinating glimpse into what goes into being the sort of breeder that is generally recommended here. I hope you’ll continue sharing this journey with us, @partigirl1998.


Thank you! I plan to continue to share. I bred corgis for years and this world is VERY different. I’ve learned and I’m continuing to learn a lot! This forum has been a wonderful tool.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

EVpoodle said:


> Also, what makes it be a German clip as opposed to a Sporting clip or a Puppy clip?


This is a random Google Images grab of a SPoo in a German clip. Google Image Result for https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/53/37/e453375a4e7336f0d2fdc51d6c7e7932.jpg


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## EVpoodle (Sep 25, 2018)

TeamHellhound said:


> his is a random Google Images grab of a SPoo in a German clip. Google Image Result for https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/53/37/e453375a4e7336f0d2fdc51d6c7e7932.jpg


I think I misunderstood. I am used to seeing poodles showing in a sporting clip with a bit of a mane and short ears. I forgot that the actual German does not have a tail pom. Oops never mind, my mistake.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I’m of the view that premiere breeders start somewhere. As hobbyists, as groomers, as vets It’s all to improve the temperament and quality of the breed, and own some wonderful dogs along the way. Full breeding rights can be obtained from European lines, which is good news for COI concerns. As others have mentioned it’s a club, you are known or known of. Huge trust issues of sharing lines or big bucks. But start with the best foundation and get a mentor to tell you what that is


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