# Hip dysplasia genetics



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Bioiberica develops the first DNA test to determine genetic predisposition to hip dysplasia in dogs - News and events | Bioiberica

Exciting!


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Zyrcona -- Very interesting. But they certainly do not give much in the way of details. Is there any scientific evidence that the DNA test actually works? 

Thanks for posting this.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*I'm sceptic!*

I've done a little bit of reading on this test.. just a little. We know so little about hip dysplasia, that I don't even think we are at the tip of the iceberg yet... 

There are theories that HD is not only polygenic, but that there is more than one type of HD. There are theories that it is environmental, there are theories that it is both polygenic with environmental influences (I vote for that one).

Until I see a whole lot more supporting information, I suspect that this test isn't going to tell us anything more than what we could have figured out by pedigree/ancestry/environmental influences evaluation. The test does not give any definative answers and I don't see that it provides any more information than what someone can find out by thoroughly evaluating the lines they are dealing with.

Having said that.. I'm eagerly looking forward to reading every else's opinions on this!


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I'm feeling pretty skeptical about all of this hip stuff. 

Was just talking with my vet about Pennhip vs OFA. He thinks that Pennhip is a much better test. He says that OFA is too dependent on how the dog is postitioned for the Xray and laxity is a better measure of the potential for future hip problems. 

Then I read this thread which was pretty skeptical about Pennhip.

http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/9448-pennhip-vs-ofa-article.html

Ferelpudel had some very interesting comments about means and standard deviations.

So all of this really just makes me more confused and wondering if any of this hip testing matters at all? Is hip testing really eliminating the dogs that should be eliminated?


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

I can't find any more details on it, but I'm assuming it's a preliminary press release and the group involved are going to publish or release further information. I agree with Peppersb. The hip testing we have at the moment is like chucking rocks in the dark. Random numbers seem to produce more random number when they are bred. I'm aware of a bitch whose score was so poor it would suggest she was actually dysplastic, produce a puppy with a very good score. On the other hand, I've read that the incidence of hip dysplasia has declined slightly since the tests were made available. Obviously there is genetics involved as well as environmental factors, and I'm told a lot of it also depends on how 'good' the vet is at positioning the dog for the x-ray.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

A clear xray can see a lot. Degrees of hip dysplasia versus sound hips are very evident on a hip xray. I do believe it is hereditary and that there is value in doing them. My vet thinks the Pennhip is a far better test, but others think the ofa is better. 

I say, don't rely only on any xray or test, look at the dog in front of you. Does the dog look like they are sound? Does the dog move well? How old is the dog? All the more reason to choose an older sire for a stud if possible. Hip dysplasia, even to a mild degree, is usually evident by 7 years old and often hints of it are present at 4 or 5. An xray at 2 can see the mild changes that take place before that.

I have also read a study that showed hip problems are going down since these xrays have become normal to do.


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## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

Interesting that you've both read that incidences are going down, here in NZ hd is on the rise in the general canine population, and ofa records here show that there has been no improvement among most breeds regularly hip scored.
It would be wonderful if they had managed to develop an accurate test although I'm a little sceptical they can. I personally have no faith in ofa as a means of predicting it across generations, my GR is from four generations of dogs scored good or better (his dam was excellent) it didn't prevent him from developing HD by six months, I did a lot of research after he developed it and I think environmental factors play a huge part in whether it develops or how it does.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Interesting discussion about whether hip dysplasia has or has not improved since OFA testing became standard. I thought that I remembered reading or hearing (perhaps from my vet) that it had not improved, but a short google search produced no clear results. Does anyone have any statistics about this? Disappointing that OFA does not provide statistics about change over time. It would appear that they do have the statistics, since they break down the incidence of dysplasia by breed (about 12% for poodles). It would be nice if we could get their statistics broken down by year, or by 5 year period, to see if there is any change over time.


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## stealthq (Aug 4, 2011)

According to a 2010 study done by the developer and patent holder for PennHIP, Gail Smith & the University of Pennsylvania (hello, conflict of interest), there has been no study in any country showing a decrease in HD frequency. According to them, more than half of OFA excellent dogs (and higher percentages of good, fair) do not pass their test for HD susceptibility. There are other studies at independent institutions that show the PennHIP score is tightly correlated with later development of HD.

Now, if the study was done with complete intellectual honesty and a reasonable degree of objectivity, it would sure explain why breeder selection has not had a significant effect. On the other hand, can you imagine dropping all those dogs from the gene pool? And breeders think they are limited now!!!


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

It occurs to me that with regard to using hip testing in breeding decisions, there are two questions that are being merged together, but really should be separated:

1. Which test is the better predictor of future hip problems in the progeny of the dog being tested. What scientific evidence is there that either test is effective in predicting this?

2. What percentage of poodles should be excluded from breeding based on low hip scores? 

With regard to question #2, OFA eliminates about 12% of the poodles that are tested (according to their statistics, approximately 12% fail to get an excellent, good or fair rating). However, PennHip on their web site suggested that only the top 40% should be bred. That means eliminating 60%. And it is not eliminating 60% of poodles in general. It is eliminating 60% of the dogs that some breeder was excited enough about to bother getting them tested. Wow. Way too high a cut off IMO--especially since hip dysplasia is not the only health concern and I'm not totally convinced about the effectiveness of this test anyway.

Imagine a breeder who has searched high and low for a stud dog that is just the size she wants, the color she wants, the conformation she wants (perfectly addressing her bitches flaws), outstanding temperament, energy level of her dreams, no Addison's, SA, epilepsy or bloat in 5 generations (OK this is hypothetical!), great heart, no thyroid problems, DNA tests are fine, and then ... PennHip says the dog is in the bottom 60% of the dogs tested. Are you really going to walk away from that stud? I don't think so.

What if the standard was PennHip test, and it generally accepted that you don't breed the bottom 12%? That would make more sense to me.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

And what if..... "they" are all wrong!

I'm disgusted/discouraged with how little we know about hips. Loads of studies, many with reasons they could be biased or incorrect, some which contradict others. They say that before you die your life passes before your eyes.. now whether it does or not (last time I thought I was going to die.. I was being attacked by a llama and all I could think of is what those rodeo clowns did to escape the bulls)... I don't know.. but if it does I'm sure I'm going to think.. "Did I really spend ALL that TIME reading studies about hip dysplasia?!?!?! Really?"

Here are my opinions and a couple of questions on considerations for hips. They are just that. They are what I currently, right now believe based on reading studies, my personal experiences and my observations of others and.. I reserve the right to change my mind!

1) Not all HD has a genetic component.
2)There are multiple kinds of HD.
3) Environmental influences such as diet, surfaces a dog is kept on, area it is confined in can all be a factor in HD.
4) Exercise is a significant factor and can be either harmful or helpful depending on how it is used.
5) HD is a progressive disorder over the life time of the dog and may not be evident on early xrays.
6) Attempting to compare PH and OFA xrays is like comparing apples and oranges.
7) Hip xrays are subjective and are dependent on the technique, skills and abilities of both the person performing the xray and the person reading the xray.
8) If you show an xray to a group of vets, you will come up with different interpretations of it.
9) Dysplastic parents can produce non dysplastic offspring.
10) Nondysplastic parents can produce dysplastic offspring
11) Poodles are at times spayed/neutered inappropriately based on poor quality xrays or xrays which were not read properly.
12) Muscle and conditioning in a poodle can make the difference between a passing and a failing xray (what does that say about the hips....)
13) Some dogs with diagnosed HD can move without problems.
14) Some dogs having been diagnosed as having good hips have limitations in movement.
15) Xrays are nothing more than tools to be used to help make breeding decisions, but breeders breed dogs and they need to be looking at the dog and taking what they see in the dog into consideration along with that xray report.,
16) The same dog, xrayed on different days, evaluated by different vets (sometimes the same vets!) can have different hip scores
17) I question: What is the influence of the radiation from hip xrays and what is it over multiple generations?
18) What is the result of anesthesia on our dogs and again.. over multiple generations.

Ok.. those last two may sound way out there.. I have reasons that I believe are valid for throwing those onto my "hip considerations" list....

I'm also going to give a couple of links to pedigree information that you all may find thought provoking:

http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=163980
Interesting that good and excellent hips are showing up in this line (as well as another HD).

http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=156839
HD parent with good offspring and grand offspring....

http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=148833
HD affected, with sibling with excellent hips.. what do you do in a case like this? what caused that HD? do you spay/neuter the parents because they had a dysplastic offspring? Think about this.. tough.. ethical issues here... it's easy to say sp/euter, but then are we damaging the breed or removing genetics that are much needed?

http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=147460
dysplastic having a sibling with fair (passing) hips....

http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=146927
dysplastic, having a sibling with good (passing) hips
nature/nurture? retire the parents? Retire only this dog? Does this dog need to be retired? Were there any kind of environmental differences that may have contributed to the development in one sib, but not in the other?

http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=146842
Dyplastic, produced good... hmmm.. do we need to "prove our dysplastic dogs, then keep breeding them because they produce better then themselves (please don't answer that, it was rhetorical and just to get people thinking about how tough these issues are for breeders/owners. We simply don't have much of an understanding on hips at all IMO)

http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_sibling.pl?id=146822

http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=146806

The next two below are of special interest to me.. and I believe to the members of this group as well:
http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_sibling.pl?id=146040
PHR Pedigree Database
We all remember Gorky.. and his heartbreakingly short life. I put his pedigree link here too.. take a look at the tested dogs in his pedigree. There are very few, but what is there.. is better than what I see in most pedigrees. It could be that people just got lucky on with the individual poodles who were tested, or it could be that people have tested and not submitted negative hip results. 

Here's an interesting one:
http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=145300
This boy is dysplastic, but has 1 sibling with excellent hips, 2 having good hips, 3 having fair hips and 1 with mild HD, one with moderate. Would love to know how all of these dogs are doing, how they move, what they have produced as far as hip scores and actual hip health.

http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=145257
This boy has mild HD, four siblings with good hips and one with fair. When I pull up his pedigree.. I see that his sire had good hips, I don't see results for the dam.. my point being.. good hips can produce HD.

OK, I started at the bottom of my list.. and didn't look at how many dogs I had pulled up on PHR.. over 200. Each with their own interesting implications as far as hips.

We have a lot of pet owners who will string a breeder up (other breeder's too!) in a minute for having produced HD, or having a dog with HD.. BUT.. try finding lines without HD..... when you do, as always when I request something like this, please let me know. How many generations have been tested, how many are HD free? How many siblings are tested are they free of HD too?

Lots of implications here to think about!


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

The studies about hips improving is in the BVA paper in my link, in the other thread about the proposed legislation in the UK (doors and windows post).

I feel there should be guidelines about hip test results and I feel the results should be published so people can study them and look for trends, but I also think breeders should have the option to go against guidelines if they feel it's justified. There is a world of difference between a breeder who's aware of what's behind their lines, discloses it to their customers, and takes responsibility for what they breed by offering a guarantee with money back to help the customer pay for medical treatment if there turns out to be a problem, and a breeder who doesn't bother to test and is ignorant and sells puppies so they can keep the money and the buyer and the puppy can go to hell if the pup develops a medical condition.

A genetics test would be far more useful. With the genetics tests for conditions like vWD, it's possible to use the test to constructively breed it out without having to discard any dogs and any other benefits they may bring to the breeding programme on the way.

Darla: you did not use the 'link' link. AAARRGHHH!

Surfaces: I wish my dog would not be crazy on the wood floors in the house. When someone she knows arrives, she jumps up at the window, jumps down, and does a leg-spinning 180-degree turn into the kitchen at high speed. She toboggans along the living-room floor on her chest when she is playing and slides into the puppy, knocking him over and sending him sliding under a chair. I worry that they will hurt their joints.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Darla says(red faced)-- but I did use the link link on Gorky's Pedigree. <VBG>

The problem is that on the rest... I didn't link directly to the pedigrees, but I linked to the descendants and siblings to make my point... I thought they would show up with out having access. I'll see what I can do to make them "work". I put a bit of time in it.. I find them very thought provoking.

I'll see if I can edit my original post with working links. I tested them at the time I did it.. and they worked.. but I forgot that I was logged into PHR when I tested them.

I have recently changed my viewpoint a bit on published hip testing results. Formerly, I believed that everyone should have hips evaluated and those results should be publicly available and that breeders should be able to do whatever breedings they chose, regardless of testing results. 

Now: I believe that breeders should be able to choose whether or not to do xrays and should still be able to choose who they breed and how and I'm hoping that people continue to xray and share results.

So why'd I change my mind? Because our hip xrays are so subjective and so variable, that while we may get some information, we really don't know how accurate and of value they are. I am aware of PH xrays that were redone with entirely different scores, so the problems aren't limited to OFA. I've not spent lots of time studying the UK hip xray program, so won't comment there. I've listened to plenty of upset breeders over the years when hip scores come back less than optimal.. but you know what I've never heard.. not even once.. is a breeder question whether or not a "fair" could have been misread.. and truly be a dysplastic...... what might that "fair" be in another couple of years? I am aware of a top agility poodle here in the USA, originally had nice, passing hip scores, as she has aged, she is now dysplastic. So do we require that all dogs be xrayed at a young age, then redone at a later date.. while that would give us a better picture of the hips, it would tell us nothing of the environmental influences that dog has been under (feed/surfaces/activity). One of the last things to change my mind was this... if a kennel produces a large amount of dysplastic pups (okay, we know they should change something!) and those results are published, people will eventually start to select for lines other than the HD line... BUT.. if dogs from those same kennel are moved elsewhere, bred and the level of HD drops dramatically.. could it not be that the HD is environmental and by selecting other lines.. we are actually making choices which will influence the overall genetics of the breed? Maybe that line is, in reality, not much, if any higher for genetic predisposition to HD than any other.. it is just being mismanaged.

At this point, I believe we are in the dark ages when it comes to our knowledge of HD. I believe that there is "safety" for the breed when it comes to addressing it in a variety of different ways, some people testing, fully tested lines, others not testing at all.


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## Poodlecat (Jul 22, 2012)

There are so many variables with testing for HD that it seems like a shot in the dark. I've had people tell me that yes, they're going to test but it's only because other breeders expect them to test. So, to keep their reputation and availability to other breeding stock, they will continue to test. But many breeders have seen a wide variability in the test results for the same dog when sending in xrays. More than once, I've heard it's a boondoggle for the testing company.

I have concerns with the effects of xrays and putting them under as on the dog. It can't help their health or the helping prevent genetic mutations.

The other consideration is how large some poodles are being bred. I'd rather choose a poodle based on it's size and the health of it's parents and predecessors rather a hip test. Diet and exercise seem to play a huge role that can overrule genetics. Someone mentioned that their puppies seem to test better when they were allowed plenty of exercise vs. restricting exercise when young. There are so many studies on HD that need to be conducted to factor in size, exercise, diet, obesity, etc.

I'm so much more concerned about SA and Addison's, eyes and general health than hips. My gut feeling is that diet and exercise play such a huge role in HD, given that you have a dog with decent conformation of an average size that's not too big.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

OK.. active links!



Yaddaluvpoodles;2559I just tried to "FIX" these so that they work. I can't do it because they aren't links to the actual pedigree's. I am going to go back said:


> http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_pedigree_PHR_ext.pl?db=standards&name=Trivette%20Justamere%27s%20Ranger&gens=5[/URL][/URL]
> Poodles Name is: Trivette Justamere's Ranger Click on the "descendants" button and take a look
> Interesting that good and excellent hips are showing up in this line (as well as another HD).
> 
> ...


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Poodlecat said:


> * I've had people tell me that yes, they're going to test but it's only because other breeders expect them to test. So, to keep their reputation and availability to other breeding stock, they will continue to test. *
> 
> Social pressure is a plays a huge role in the genetics of our poodles. Social pressure on breeders I believe is the strongest influence in making our breed what it is today. Breeder's (humans) need approval of others. It's considered one of the essential needs on Maslow's heirarchy of needs. Social pressure was a huge contributor to our genetic bottlenecks. (Ya know.. breeders telling other breeders.. "why would you breed to him.. when you could breed to HIM?" we lost essential genetics as a result). Our poodles need and deserve THINKING breeders. Breeders who are able to look with a critical eye at studies and research as well as what's happening right in front of their noses, what's REALLY happening with our poodles. We need breeders who make decisions, not because of social pressure, but because we have done our groundwork and know what's behind those decisions, we know why we are making those choices and are able to verbalize it.
> 
> ...


*
*
Well.. I still like my big poodles.. as well as my smaller ones. I suspect that we are going to find that diet and exercise may also play a role in total health of a poodle.. including possibly the development of AD and SA.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Here is a paper about a study of the effect of food intake on joint abnormalities.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Also here is the Kennel Club's site where you can search for health tests on any dog. You can use the tabs to compare the dog's tests with those of its relatives. Hip results all over the place in progeny as in Yadda's examples do not seem to be that unusual.

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

I do know of a whole lot of breeders who changed feeding strategies when that paper came out! That was kind of the end of the "healthy rolley polley puppy" era. 

Here is one that came out this year... again, it gives lots to think about!
Chronology of Hip Dysplasia Development in a Cohort of 48 Labrador Retrievers Followed for Life - Smith - 2012 - Veterinary Surgery - Wiley Online Library


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

There is a whole lot to think about regarding this thread:

Do we recommend that people bypass untested dogs in favor of dogs who have had hip testing done when looking for a new puppy? 

As breeder's, do we compensate if a puppy develops hip dysplasia (or this is hypothetical.. exaggerating to make a point) or do we sue the puppy owner because they may have provided an improper diet/environment which contributed to the HD and damage to our good names as breeders?

These questions I ask in all seriousness: 
How much responsibility is on the breeder if a pup develops HD? 
How much control does the breeder actually have over the expression of HD?
Can a breeder be held responsible for something they have little control over?
Do hip xrays and actions taken according to the results of those hip xrays really have any influence on hip health over the course of time?
Are there potential adversities due to anesthesia/radiation that might be detrimental to our breeds long term well being?

Feel free to add your own questions/answers!


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## Poodlecat (Jul 22, 2012)

Yaddaluv, that's very interesting about the Leatherstocking line and not allowing xrays or flying. I wouldn't want to fly a dog but just general anxiety...didn't think of the radiation!

I wonder even about sonograms. I see people using sonograms quite a bit on pregnant poodles. I suppose the primary reason would be to see how many pups before delivery so you're not guessing if she delivered all of her pups and risk her life if she didn't. But I read something about doctors questioning the wisdom of using sonograms on embryos. Oh, yeah, here it is: 
Ultrasound Shows Potential for Fetal Harm

I'm just cautious. I know whenever I've had to go under for a procedure that it took me a good 6 months to a year to recuperate. The most telling sign would be that my usually thick hair would thin and fallout and it took it quite sometime to come back. I can't imagine what it'd do to a sensitive poodle metabolism.

It reminds me of mammograms and the big push to get mammograms. Now research has come out that it can do more harm than good and contribute more to increasing chances of getting breast cancer. But I don't mean to argue that point but only to give an example. I think HD testing vs. those that make observations and watch their lines is analogous to people that take every word of allopathic doctors as the gospel vs. people that take a more holistic approach to their health.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Hips are a frustrating and extremely complex issue indeed. This thread is a great example of why hips simply aren't as cut and dried as having all poodles xrayed and then following the guidelines for each particular recommendation.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Here's another page about how the test works. There is a link at the bottom where you can download a pdf, but unfortunately you need to be a vet. If anyone is or knows a vet with the pdf, feel free to throw me a copy.

Dysgen (™) is already available for Labrador Retriever - Joint and digestive care for pets | Bioiberica

I feel it's beneficial both to breeders and the health of the breed that we move towards _genetic _tests that can be done on puppies to inform the decision on which pups to keep for breeding. We already have these tests for vWD, NE, DM, and a few others, although I find they are woefully under-used in my country. People put a lot more emphasis on the phenotypic hip and eye tests, which not only are imprecise and vague regarding the risks of the chosen parent dogs to pass these diseases on to the puppies, but cannot be done until the dog is mature. In the likelihood that the breeder picked the pup that looked like it was going to have the best conformation and temperament and made it a member of their family for a year or two and sold all the rest to mostly pet homes, when the results come back as not ideal they're faced with the choice of spaying and possibly having to rehome a dog who has become a companion to them so they can have room and time for another and discarding whatever made that litter worthy of being bred, or breeding the dog despite the one non-ideal test and suffering castigation and possible hate campaigns from other breeders.


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## Poodlecat (Jul 22, 2012)

I wish someone that's a vet could get the information on pricing for this test. It has to been sent away to Barcelona so it might take a while but it would be so much more helpful to have a genetic test vs. a "shot in the dark". 

Wasn't there a link for a study on this thread that studied that unreliability of OFA and Pennhip? I can't seem to find it anymore on this thread and I'm pretty sure is was here.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Out of sheer curiosity, I wondered about the effects of x-rays for hip dysplasia, and found this nearly six year old thread, using the PF search for radiation. 

These 2012 conversations are fascinating, and I wondered what's new since then.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

One later reference on the company's site, linked to research at least partly funded by the company selling the test: A Genetic Predictive Model for Canine Hip Dysplasia: Integration of Genome Wide Association Study (GWAS) and Candidate Gene Approaches


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