# He's OKAY, but Chagall was attacked by a Border Collie yesterday....



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

OMG how frightening - so glad it turned out OK!

And thanks for sharing - it is a good reminder to me not to influenced by people who tease me for being too paranoid about walking my dogs - the tiny ones could be killed in the first moment of such an attack!


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Oh, so incredibly scary, and I'm so glad you said Chagall was okay right in the title! 

As a fellow victim in the "attacked by a loose dog" game, I can so relate, and offer you and Chagall my warmest and most enveloping hug. I can tell you that the sense of helplessness was the absolute worst. When Sugar was attacked, I had nothing, no walking stick, no spray, *nothing.* The most hideous feeling of just holding him while the attacking dog ripped his flank, literally under my nose while we both screamed. The horrified owner saying "I'm sorry, I'm sorry," was another similarity. But you know, the damage is done. 

So smart of you to take him back to the scene of the crime and see how he does. I hope, as an older boy, he'll be able to more or less "shrug this off" or at least get through with only a little extra caution. Unfortunately, though we've worked at it A LOT and have improved greatly, to this day Sugarfoot is reactive to certain types of dogs (boisterous, outgoing ones), while he's usually okay with calm dogs. He has to be "managed" now and probably will the rest of his life, and will never be "the dog I wanted." But he was attacked at 7 months old, a more formative age.

Please, don't let it ruin walking for you. I tried so hard...but it has for me. I've probably walked in the neighborhood only a few times since that horrible day, and now always armed to the teeth (with a hiking stick and spray shield, treats, etc.) and looking around constantly. It changed my life and destroyed one of my greatest pleasures and made me have a dog that is not what he could have been. (We're still hanging in there and I love him...but it's difficult sometimes.)

So yes, always be prepared! These stories just keep popping up, like an epidemic. These people with their loose dogs just gather the aggressor back up, oh well, sorry, here's some $$$ for your vet bills (if you're lucky...), but the damage they inflict can last a lifetime.

Gosh, sorry to write a novel, but this touched me so deeply. I'm so glad Chagall is okay. HUGS from me for both of you!

--Q


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

OMG! I too am glad you wrote right away that Chagall was okay. Whew! What the h-e-double hockey sticks is wrong with people that they let their dogs loose?!?! This happens, it seems, all the time. I would be livid too. In fact, up the street is a boxer who came out of their front door which was left open and often is and started trotting up the road after my little dogs and me. I yelled at them, "GET YOUR DOG!" The kids were the only ones outside and they did nothing. I was PO'd! The dog didn't wind up doing anything but another neighbor said it was aggressive toward her and her dog. I'm so sick of people being so freakin' careless and oblivious to anyone else but themselves! :banghead: :mad2:

I'm so glad you and Chagall are all right. Your advice is good. I think I'll start carrying something too.


----------



## Caniche (Jun 10, 2013)

We've seen too many of these topics lately. Too many owners aren't controlling their dogs and then blowing it off when something happens. No dog is perfect - Ryker used to wander into our neighbor's yard to chase squirrels. But I was a responsible owner and 1) Work on "come" every day 2) put up a fence. If you're 100 lbs soaking wet, are meek and can't be dominant, then you shouldn't own a German Shepherd. Nobody makes you own a dog - so if you get one then you need to be prepared! 

I'm surprised a border collie did this. Our groomer raises and competes border collies, and she'd be mortified by this owner's behavior. (Imagine how we'd feel if someone talked of a vicious poodle that jumped their chihuahua).

I guess this goes to show you that it's not the breed, but the breeder.

I'm so glad Chagall and you are safe! I know what you mean about protecting your dog even if you put yourself in danger. When this happened to me with a shepherd mix, I picked up Ryker and the dog lunged at my face. Not smart but I'd do it again.

People need to learn that a dog is a lot
of work and requires your diligence if he is going to be a good functioning dog of society. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Carrie-e (Oct 23, 2012)

Poor little guy! Hope he is not put off big dogs because of that,and how unusual for a border collie to be like that! Having said that we encountered a dominant hackles up one in an enclosed dog area where I was having a one on one training lesson and my standard Billy was on a lead. The trainer hit the dog with her bag,but at least Billy was big enough to fight back if necessary,not like poor Chagall,oh give him a hug from me and hope you get on ok when you go back there.


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

My daughter was attacked by a border collie. A lot that came into the groom shop where I worked seemed skittish/nervous. I think because we live in the city and these people get a herding breed, don't exercise them and the dogs get neurotic. So many people get a breed of dog because they think it is pretty, or smart, or their friends own a really nice one. 

They don't seem to understand that when you have certain breeds that were bred for a purpose, you need to take care of that excess energy and curb their instincts.

I am so glad Chagall is ok! So so scary! Been there, done that!


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

so sorry to hear about this, but you glad you and chagall appear to have escaped relatively unscathed.


----------



## Sweetp (Mar 23, 2013)

Oh my word, that's scary! Glad you and Chagall are okay. 

I'm thinking cattle prod right now! It would be like walking with a stick, only you'd have the added protection of an electrical shock if needed. I wonder if it would be legal?


----------



## Theo'sMom (Mar 23, 2011)

Glad to hear that you are both ok. It's great that you are taking him back to the scene so he can be resilient. He and we at poodle forum now know what we always suspected- that chagall's mom's secret identity is Wonder Woman, protecting Chagall and the world from dastardly dogs with chips on their shoulder. :act-up:


----------



## Petitpie'sDH (Mar 22, 2013)

I'm so glad you and Chagall are OK, and how brave of you to grab the border collie's collar to get him off of Chagall. Thank God you were not bitten in the process. I agree that there have been way too many incidents like this on the forum lately. I am becoming quite paranoid about walking my poodles outside of my fenced yard, and have to give some serious thought about what to carry with me for our protection. The speed with which these attacks happen really concerns me, and I think it would be difficult to deploy any kind of weapon in time unless it was already in your hand. I kind of like the cattle prod idea, because you could have it in your hand, and I'm thinking it would be effective in stopping a dog from attacking, but am not sure. Very scary incidents, and again, I'm so glad that you are both OK. Please let us know how Chagall's return to the "scene of the crime" goes.


----------



## Wilbur5 (Jan 25, 2012)

Hugs to you and Chagall! You did the only thing you could do in that situation. My boy has been attacked twice by loose dogs with irrisponsible pet owners, so I definately can emphathise with you. I am very happy that both of you are physically ok. 

Were you able to report the dog and owner to animal control?


----------



## Petitpie'sDH (Mar 22, 2013)

I have done a little quick research, and believe because of their legality in most states, a "stun gun" would be a better option than a cattle prod. You can even get them in the form of a walking cane to give you extended reach needed to ward off a dog. I am seriously looking at something like this "zap cane":
ZapCane Stun Cane


----------



## Michelle (Nov 16, 2009)

How scary! Glad he is alright.


----------



## Abbe gails Mom (Nov 8, 2012)

I am so thankful that all is ok, and that Chagall, was Not Hurt , Many the Time the Thought of doing Jail time has stop me from doing something that would only get me in trouble, things can go wrong so fast, out of the blue, it just makes your heart stop.


----------



## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

OMG! OMG! I hope he wasn't bitten! My stomach just turned over. 

I agree with Tiny Poodles, a small dog could have been killed easily by that attack.

I thought I came close to GiGi getting hurt in our front yard by our front door. We had just come back from the checking the mail box and were going in the house when this black dog came running up. I just caught a glimpse of him in my in my peripherel vision, I snatched GiGi up to me (she didn't see the dog coming either) and kneed the dog in the chest. I frightened GiGi so much by just grabbing her up without a word she peed all over me. After I kneed the dog in the chest I realized it was just a young Lab puppy that was just running up to play. Scared the snot out of me and I scared the pee out of GiGi. 

I can't imagine how you must have felt actually seeing that dog attack your baby!

I pray that he suffered no physical or psychological damage from this ordeal.

You are so right, you have to be on watch at every turn!


----------



## Oreo's Mommy (Dec 18, 2012)

My husband used to tease me about putting Oreo in a stroller so I stopped using it. Oreo used to like to lay on it....folded up...under the coffee table so I left it there for him. The little bugger chewed it to pieces where it zips together. After reading this, I am either going to try to fix this stroller or buy a new one.


----------



## Sweetp (Mar 23, 2013)

Petitpie'sDH said:


> I am seriously looking at something like this "zap cane":
> ZapCane Stun Cane


Thanks for that link, PDH. Looks interesting. I liked the TASER C2 with the built in laser sight and two small probes that can be used up to 15 feet away from the target without doing permanent damage to the dog! Then I noticed the price. :ahhhhh: I also liked the 18" Streetwise Stun Baton. 

I don't take my small ones where large dogs are. One bite and Kaylee would be gone. I couldn't risk it. I have a stroller that Lexi loved but Kaylee cries to be let out to walk.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I am so glad Chagall is okay, but this makes me want to do something. I walk the dogs all the time without a thing. The other day I was in my sister's neighborhood in Los Angeles and a loose dog started to come up with it's hackles raised. I hollered at it and luckily it went away, but it was scary. I haven't had any problems in my neighborhood or on the trails, but maybe I should bring something...


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Petitpie'sDH said:


> I'm so glad you and Chagall are OK, and how brave of you to grab the border collie's collar to get him off of Chagall. Thank God you were not bitten in the process. I agree that there have been way too many incidents like this on the forum lately. I am becoming quite paranoid about walking my poodles outside of my fenced yard, and have to give some serious thought about what to carry with me for our protection. The speed with which these attacks happen really concerns me, and I think it would be difficult to deploy any kind of weapon in time unless it was already in your hand. I kind of like the cattle prod idea, because you could have it in your hand, and I'm thinking it would be effective in stopping a dog from attacking, but am not sure. Very scary incidents, and again, I'm so glad that you are both OK. Please let us know how Chagall's return to the "scene of the crime" goes.


I know zero about cattle prods, but I am thinking it's electric, no? If so, if the attacker was already touching you or your dog, wouldn't the electricity pass through them to the victim?


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Sweetp said:


> Thanks for that link, PDH. Looks interesting. I liked the TASER C2 with the built in laser sight and two small probes that can be used up to 15 feet away from the target without doing permanent damage to the dog! Then I noticed the price. :ahhhhh: I also liked the 18" Streetwise Stun Baton.
> 
> I don't take my small ones where large dogs are. One bite and Kaylee would be gone. I couldn't risk it. I have a stroller that Lexi loved but Kaylee cries to be let out to walk.


I kind of like that idea, because they are not legal here, but, I still have the same question -if the dog was already on your dog, would your dog get zapped, when you zapped that dog?...


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I kind of like that idea, because they are not legal here, but, I still have the same question -if the dog was already on your dog, would your dog get zapped, when you zapped that dog?...


Yes.:afraid:


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oreo's Mommy said:


> My husband used to tease me about putting Oreo in a stroller so I stopped using it. Oreo used to like to lay on it....folded up...under the coffee table so I left it there for him. The little bugger chewed it to pieces where it zips together. After reading this, I am either going to try to fix this stroller or buy a new one.


My girls love their stroller so much - they don't want to be on the ground. And the good part about little dogs is that they can get their exercise playing indoors!


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Yes.:afraid:


Oy, well, maybe it's is still preferable to having the attacker bite dwn on a little dog - but still, I think that much electricity might kill itself kill a dog that is very small... what's a worried Mom to do!


----------



## murphys (Mar 1, 2012)

So glad to hear that you and Chagall are ok. Let us know how the return to the scene goes. I used to walk with a walking stick but having only 2 hands, I found it difficult to carry a water bottle, treats, cell phone, walkng stick and hold onto the leash while going up and down trails. I think I need to dig out the shillelagh and carry it with me.


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Im SO glad to hear you and Chagall are ok!!

When I got Panda, I started out walking with a metal hiking pole. When I found out there was a problem pit bull on the block, I switched to a baseball bat. After Panda got bigger, the pit bull moved out, and I logged hundreds of walks around the block without incident, I relaxed and now dont walk with anything. Its so cumbersome to carry something but maybe I will reconsider. Although they are only advisable for pit bulls, I carry a break stick on my pocket when I go to the dog park.


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I found a childs golf club is light weight, yet packs a wallop when swung.


----------



## Lepski110 (Dec 7, 2012)

I'm so glad that you and your dog are okay - I know how frightened you were because a Pit mix attacked Walter and I last summer. We never saw her coming. I ended up with a few stitches from getting bitten trying to get her off of him - she was half his size, but very tenacious and he was only 6 months old and had no idea how to respond excrpt to scream. It was a nightmare. I now carry dog repellant spray when we walk. The worst thing is that I've never been afraid of any dog and now I get uncomfortable around strange dogs - because someone didn't have control of her dog.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

First, I am very glad that both you and Chagall are ok. You are very wise to go back with him and help him move through and past this horribly upsetting experience.

I do carry a walking stick and spray shield when I walk in my area. Although the two problem pits I have mentioned in the past have moved away there are sometimes other loose dogs that I don't know well that I see in the neighborhood. Thankfully we haven't had any problems since those pits left, but there is an american lines GSD up the street who I wouldn't trust if he got loose. 

I don't remember who it was early on, but a couple of people commented about border collies. The point I think is important to bring up again is how important it is for people to think about the breed of dog they choose and their lifestyle. Unless you have a herd of sheep in your yard to entertain the border collie how can most people possibly give one enough exercise. Around where I live most of the "sane" border collies I know work as goose chasers on golf courses or do obedience and agility, or all of the above. Again I will quote Dr. Matthew Wright in his book Breed Freak. "In humans, incessant work related activity masks anxiety, low self-esteem, and intimacy problems...a workaholics denial and destructive behavior will persist despite feedback from loved ones...most border collies do not suffer from low self-esteem or intimacy problems, from the outside they look like the worst workaholic you have ever known. Open eyes, compulsions they cannot control, and an infinite pool of energy are the hallmarks of this breed." Refer to my post in Michelle's recent thread for the nice things Dr. Wright has to say about poodles. But even on poodles, he warns of the need to provide enough exercise to keep your smart dog from getting bored and eating the furniture. Almost every dog can be a great one in the hands of a loving and responsible owner who is committed to giving the care and training the dog deserves.


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I can hardly get my mind around how many members and their dogs have been subjected to attacks from out-of-control loose dogs! The harm, in some cases lasting damage, and horribly sad deaths are just so senseless. Chagall got off unscathed, in large part thanks to *Quossum. *When she first shared the story of the horrific attack on her Sugarfoot, I began rehearsing in my mind what I might do if Chagall was ever attacked. I owe you *Q*, you gave me the grit to wrestle that Border Collie off! I only wish the devastating aftermath of the attack on Sugar could be lifted from you both. And from everyone else who has been through such an ordeal. 

We went back to the shopping village this afternoon, you can see for yourself Chagall rebounded just fine. I'm glad people are rethinking ways to help ensure their poodle's safety while out and about. Being mentally prepared with some sort of plan helped me.


----------



## Dallasminis (Feb 6, 2011)

Dang it! I'm glad Chagall is OK...we had a similar situation awhile back you may recall and now we take citronella spray everywhere! I also only walk one a a time now...I feel safer that way. SO GLAD you guys are all right....it's like driving defensively....we have to walk defensively....


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Does anyone have any experience using citronella spray? I have no first-hand knowledge of it, but I seem to recall from a previous thread that some people felt it wasnt much of a deterrent. I'd hate for the those carrying it to be experiencing a false sense of security.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

chagall's mom - i think chagall knows you tried to protect him and succeeded. that's at least partly why he remains his bouncy self, which is wonderful.


----------



## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Im glad that your silver boy is safe. Phew~ That's scary!!

People really need to keep their dogs under control. Nickel was attacked by 3 Boston Terriers when he was young and now he hates and gets pretty reactive toward all brachycephalic breeds.


----------



## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Oh My! I just read this post and it just made me sooooo upset for you and Chagall! I am so glad he was unharmed and unscathed by his encounter, (and you also!) I know you are probably going to be thinking about it for several weeks and will be feeling a little wary every time you have Chagall in a public place. You just never know........so God Bless and keep you safe from stupid dog owners!


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Just seen this - my internet connection is down. I am so glad you are both OK, and do hope there are no longer term issues!


----------



## Angl (Nov 9, 2012)

I'm so glad that the return trip went well. :amen:

So thankful that Chagall came out of his ordeal unscathed.

I'm developing a plan of my own. My uncle made me a walking stick from a small tree that had vines growing around it... it is very cool looking and useful for cracking over a vicious dog's head. Might start taking it when we walk.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Jacamar, I have used my Spray Shield once or twice. It did get the pit I sprayed to back off when I hit him with it just as he came off his lawn towards Peeves. The other time he was on Peeves before I had the chance. BF had to kick the dog to get it off. The owner called it back when he came out after he heard the ruckus. Peeves was ok, but another dog (big lab) attacked by that pit did end up at the vet and needed stitches. We are very happy that dog is gone. My feeling is that Spray Shield can work if the dog has not yet made contact. It sprays pretty far so I would always recommend using before the other dog gets to you (hopefully you see or hear it coming).


----------



## Alkhe (Aug 7, 2013)

Argh, so glad that Chagall is ok and wasn't traumatised too badly - we have had a few incidents like this too, but thankfully only one where the dog was seriously trying to injure my girl. The others have just been overbearing dogs playing FAR too roughly, and my dogs getting terrified.

I do think it's important to keep a level head around these thing though. Yes, it is terrible when these things happen, but the number of times that you get rushed or attacked by a dog is tiny compared to the number of times you go out. Of course it's really important to keep your wits about you at all times, but I personally wouldn't be investing in weapons or anything. The body language that you project will go a long way toward influencing how other people and dogs react to you. If you're expecting a negative encounter, your expectations of that will surely influence the kind of encounter you have, etc.


----------



## Petitpie'sDH (Mar 22, 2013)

These are quotes from various websites concerning the question of whether or not the electrical charge of the stun gun affects other than the attacker if the attacker is touching another:

"It is impossible for the user of a stun gun or Taser to be shocked by the attacker touching her. The current does not run in reverse, nor does it travel through several bodies. The only way a user could be shocked is by accidentally applying the shock to herself."

"One major question everyone seems to have is 'can I get shocked if I'm touching the attacker'? The answer is no because the electrical charge that comes from the Stun Gun is used up in the muscles of the attacker. This means that there isn't enough power left for the charge to come back out of his body and into yours."

"You will not be affected even if you are holding your attacker with another hand or he is holding you! The extreme shock does not pass between people."

I have no personal knowledge of this, but I haven't found any information to the contrary.


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Alkhe said:


> I do think it's important to keep a level head around these thing though. Yes, it is terrible when these things happen, but the number of times that you get rushed or attacked by a dog is tiny compared to the number of times you go out. Of course it's really important to keep your wits about you at all times, but I personally wouldn't be investing in weapons or anything. The body language that you project will go a long way toward influencing how other people and dogs react to you. If you're expecting a negative encounter, your expectations of that will surely influence the kind of encounter you have, etc.


Well I dont really agree. I think if your dog is attacked, it wont matter if you've walked the dog 10,000 times before without incident, you'll wish you had a weapon or deterrent of some kind. And most people who post about being attacked dont seem to have been in a fearful state of mind beforehand, or even aware of the other dog until the attack began.


----------



## Lea (Oct 20, 2012)

Poor Chagall. Glad he's ok. That's very scary!


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I do think it's important to keep a level head around these thing though. Yes, it is terrible when these things happen, but the number of times that you get rushed or attacked by a dog is tiny compared to the number of times you go out. Of course it's really important to keep your wits about you at all times, but I personally wouldn't be investing in weapons or anything. The body language that you project will go a long way toward influencing how other people and dogs react to you. If you're expecting a negative encounter, your expectations of that will surely influence the kind of encounter you have, etc.[/QUOTE]


Keeping a level head would NOT have changed a single thing when my Isabel was attacked. I didn't have ANY expectations because it happened so quickly. She was dead on the first bite. If you think you can used body language to prevent an attack that is wishful thinking. BTW, it doesn't matter how many times you have gone out...it only takes ONCE! I think weapons are a wonderful idea!


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Alkhe said:


> Argh, so glad that Chagall is ok and wasn't traumatised too badly - we have had a few incidents like this too, but thankfully only one where the dog was seriously trying to injure my girl. The others have just been overbearing dogs playing FAR too roughly, and my dogs getting terrified.
> 
> I do think it's important to keep a level head around these thing though. Yes, it is terrible when these things happen, but the number of times that you get rushed or attacked by a dog is tiny compared to the number of times you go out. Of course it's really important to keep your wits about you at all times, but I personally wouldn't be investing in weapons or anything. The body language that you project will go a long way toward influencing how other people and dogs react to you. If you're expecting a negative encounter, your expectations of that will surely influence the kind of encounter you have, etc.


I agree that a level head is ideal in these situations. However, I disagree that your body language will necessarily influence how the dog acts. These dogs that rush out and attack don't usually read body language, don't have a clue in the first place. Sometimes, but not always.

I think a weapon is a good idea, as long as it's safe for you and your dog.


----------



## Laceypoo (Aug 23, 2011)

Chagall, so glad the two of you are okay. Lacey and I have been victims as well. She still does not feel comfortable around large breed dogs and I am now hyper vigilant at all times when walking. We continue to walk daily. I used a stick for a while, but found it difficult to carry a stick or other weapon along with poop bags and water. I think once you experience this, you are forever changed. I do follow the same route every day because I feel like it is the safest, though, I never let my guard down.

My heart goes out to all who have experienced this. It is happening way too often.


----------



## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

So happy to hear Chagall is doing well.. he is an adorable fellow. I hope that the owner of the BC realizes what a liability their dog is.. coulda been a bad situation for them AND their dog if you or Chagall were injured any worse.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Petitpie'sDH said:


> These are quotes from various websites concerning the question of whether or not the electrical charge of the stun gun affects other than the attacker if the attacker is touching another:
> 
> "It is impossible for the user of a stun gun or Taser to be shocked by the attacker touching her. The current does not run in reverse, nor does it travel through several bodies. The only way a user could be shocked is by accidentally applying the shock to herself."
> 
> ...


Thanks you, that is very helpful!
Now, the only lingering question that I have is how would that cane hold up in the rain!


----------



## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

Chagall's Mom, So sorry to hear about your close call. Thank God you were able to save Chagall. Let's hope the border collie's careless owner learned something about her dog and will keep him leashed in the future. Do you plan to report her to the police?

I get so mad when I see dogs off leash, esp. big dogs. The owners always have some stupid excuse and could care less about the vulnerability of small dogs. I got a stick with a pointy end last time we had a thread like this, but forget to take it. It IS hard to juggle two dogs, bags, treats (I am still in leash training mode) and a stick but I guess I'd better get used to it.


----------



## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear this!!!!! And very angry too!!! How awful!!! I would have yelled every bad word I know at that irresponsible dog owner!!! I am so glad you are both ok.... 
I never take my dogs anywhere since Lou got attacked :-( we have playdates in the extra-large backyard... I'm too scared, and Lou gets really car sick anyway so... 
I'm scared if my poodles got attacked by another dog that I wouldn't be able to control myself and get in the middle of it beating the heck out of the other dog and God forbid end up getting hurt too! I love my babies and it's hard to be rational when they are in danger

I just wish, for all of you that are still able to enjoy walking your dogs, that there is a way to stay safe.



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## P2alix (Jul 4, 2013)

I am so glad that Chagall is ok. I know how traumatic it is when this happen sometime more for the owner than the pup. Mainly because we can imagine just how bad things could have turned out. I have to say that I don't care if it is the wrong I could not stand by and do nothing while my dog was bring mauled either. I hope you were able to give that dog owner a piece of your mind since you couldn't kill her (jail time should be avoided when ever possible) 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## plr (Oct 20, 2012)

CM: OMG, I so happy that Chagall is ok. What a scary thing to happen. You have given me a lot to think about. I've only encountered two loose dogs while walking Remy in the last 7 months -- and luckily I saw them first. I hate to think what could happen to a 7 lb dog if he were attacked like Chagall. I need to figure out what I'd do and be prepared.


----------



## all that jazz (Feb 6, 2011)

My heart lurched when I read your post! I am so happy you and Chagall are ok.


----------



## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Thank goodness he is ok!! I am definitely going to carry spray with me from now on. There are just to many incidents of dogs attacking other dogs now a days. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Alkhe (Aug 7, 2013)

Jacamar said:


> Well I dont really agree. I think if your dog is attacked, it wont matter if you've walked the dog 10,000 times before without incident, you'll wish you had a weapon or deterrent of some kind. And most people who post about being attacked dont seem to have been in a fearful state of mind beforehand, or even aware of the other dog until the attack began.



No, of course not - if an attack happens, an attack happens. And it doesn't matter how many times you've walked the dog before, it only has to happen once. I get that. I'm just saying that I would rather not be live a life where I'm armed with a weapon every time I walk my dog. I've pulled a staffy off my dog Mimi before, and have broken up quite a few dog fights - in each case what has helped most has been quick thinking, having read up on how to actually break up a dog fight, and more than anything, adrenalin!! 

I also think this is one of those things where it may SEEM like there are more attacks than there used to be, but it's also that forums like this didn't exist in the past - so people are able to talk about attacks more. 

Anyway, obviously I'm in the minority here! I'm just not into the idea of being armed, or carrying a club or anything. I refuse to live my life like that.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Alkhe, I do take spray shield and a walking stick, but I wouldn't resort to a stun gun or cattle prod. I find they help me be more relaxed and give me a feeling of being prepared for an untoward event but, I agree with you that you can't live your life thinking you have to be armed to the teeth all the time. If we all did that we would all be pulling guns on each other every time we rubbed shoulders with a stranger on the street, not a way to live.


----------



## SusanG (Aug 8, 2009)

How frightening! I've often thought I should bring along my pepper spray but then realized I couldn't just aim it at the offender without risking my Callie. I like the idea of a big stick! Callie doesn't know how to play with other dogs, is very reserved around them. I can't imagine the damage an attack would have on her.
I worry about taking her out at night, whether we could be attacked by something rabid in the dark. We have woods behind the house and sometimes see coydogs, foxes and smell skunks. I think I'll get my billy club out again. I hope Chagall hasn't been too traumatized by what happened!


----------



## SusanG (Aug 8, 2009)

Pit bulls really scare me. Callie is shy around other dogs, and all it would take is her appearing to back up or run away for them to switch to natural instinct and chase her down! I no longer go to the dog park, there are too many of them and mixed pit breeds and sometimes they let them loose! I hear all the time "he/she is very gentle, don't worry". But then you read about one of those "very gentle" pits attacking a child or someone walking down the road minding their own business. It isn't that I am anti pit bull. Its just that I respect that it takes many generations to remove a trait that is genetic. For some reason, many people thinks its "macho" to own one, and are not the best of owners to begin with. Its not the fault of the dog that instinct is strong to chase and attack. I steer clear!


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Alkhe said:


> I've pulled a staffy off my dog Mimi before, and have broken up quite a few dog fights - in each case what has helped most has been quick thinking, having read up on how to actually break up a dog fight, and more than anything, adrenalin!!
> 
> I'm just not into the idea of being armed, or carrying a club or anything. I refuse to live my life like that.


The owner of the Border Collie who attacked my mpoo was completely paralyzed with fear. She stood by frozen and did NOTHING until I had her snarling dog by his collar, lifted into the air on his back legs, still growling and snapping as he hovered over my cowering poodle. I had to forcefully tell her several times (didn't yell because I didn't want to amp up her dog any further) to come take hold of her dog. She ultimately did, then slumped to the ground on her knees, holding her dog in a lie down with both hands. She looked quite stunned as she told me she'd owned him for four years and "he's never done that before, I don't understand." Also that she heard you should break up a dog fight by pulling on the dog's back legs but, she said, still looking dazed, "I don't know how to do that." I think dog training classes might provide a real service by offering some kind of guidance/instruction on what steps owners might take in the event of a dog attack, whether their own dog or another is the aggressor. Maybe, if you're willing, you can share some of the successful tips you know for managing such situations, either here or perhaps start a new thread that might be more widely seen. Just a thought.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is not everyone is physically, mentally or emotionally able to ward-off or break up a full-on dog fight/attack, especially without help, be it in the form of a deterrent spray, a stick, or a second set of hands. Even with such assistance it can be a crap shoot as to how things go, as some here whose dogs have been severely injured or killed in an attack have recounted. I was fortunate to be dealing with a 'manageable' attacker; the dog's size, strength, jaw power and determination to do harm didn't come close to that of other breeds I've seen fly into a fury. Mail carriers in the U.S. are permitted to carry and use a pepper spray deterrent to ward off a dog attack. I make use of something similar, a citronella-based deterrent spray which is legal to carry in my state. I do not live fearfully. I do take what I deem to be prudent safety measures for my own personally safety and for my dog. I am not thinking of getting an ooze, but maybe a gun made of red meat would be good!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Chagall's Mom you raise a good point in thinking that training should include how to deal with aggression, either dog/dog or dog/other animal or dog/person. We also should have a separate thread here so that we can exchange ideas.

I hope the picture of the meat gun means your sense of humor is getting ready to reemerge. I guess you could throw it as far away from you as possible and hope the aggressor is hungrier than mean.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Chagall's mom said:


> The owner of the Border Collie who attacked my mpoo was completely paralyzed with fear. She stood by frozen and did NOTHING until I had her snarling dog by his collar, lifted into the air on his back legs, still growling and snapping as he hovered over my cowering poodle. I had to forcefully tell her several times (didn't yell because I didn't want to amp up her dog any further) to come take hold of her dog. She ultimately did, then slumped to the ground on her knees, holding her dog in a lie down with both hands. She looked quite stunned as she told me she'd owned him for four years and "he's never done that before, I don't understand." Also that she heard you should break up a dog fight by pulling on the dog's back legs but, she said, still looking dazed, "I don't know how to do that." I think dog training classes might provide a real service by offering some kind of guidance/instruction on what steps owners might take in the event of a dog attack, whether their own dog or another is the aggressor. Maybe, if you're willing, you can share some of the successful tips you know for managing such situations, either here or perhaps start a new thread that might be more widely seen. Just a thought.
> 
> I guess the point I'm trying to make is not everyone is physically, mentally or emotionally able to ward-off or break up a full-on dog fight/attack, especially without help, be it in the form of a deterrent spray, a stick, or a second set of hands. Even with such assistance it can be a crap shoot as to how things go, as some here whose dogs have been severely injured or killed in an attack have recounted. I was fortunate to be dealing with a 'manageable' attacker; the dog's size, strength, jaw power and determination to do harm didn't come close to that of other breeds I've seen fly into a fury. Mail carriers in the U.S. are permitted to carry and use a pepper spray deterrent to ward off a dog attack. I make use of something similar, a citronella-based deterrent spray which is legal to carry in my state. I do not live fearfully. I do take what I deem to be prudent safety measures for my own personally safety and for my dog. I am not thinking of getting an ooze, but maybe a gun made of red meat would be good!


this is reminiscent of what has happened in my own condo complex a few times. it's very dog friendly, but there are owners who are completely unaware of what their dogs are capable of. as i mentioned in another thread, one dog attacked an elderly woman who was walking by. the owner's wife and daughter were traumatized by the attack almost as much as the person who was attacked. in another instance a large lab attacked a chihuahua but did not actually hurt the dog, although relations between the owners of the dogs involved will never be good. in both cases, despite the cant about it being the owner and not the dog, the traumatized owners were probably as blameless as the person attacked and the owner of the attacked dog - the dogs doing the attacking had not displayed any signs of real aggression up to then. i think most owners don't understand that the value of training and working with a dog comes down to helping it live in human society, where dog aggression is almost universally condemned except by those who breed dogs to be aggressive. often a dog that attacks unexpectedly causes fear in the owner and eventually is given up or put down because it is no longer trusted.


----------



## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Just catching up and so sorry to hear about this - it must have really rattled you, but huge kudos for the way you handled it. Pippin has had two near-misses, and the last one was with a border collie. Now I don't trust them, even though 99% are probably fine.

I'm so glad the gorgeous Chagall is okay - and you too.

Manxcat
x


----------



## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I am so glad that you are both okay! Jolie was attacked by a huge Lab at the beginning of the summer. She was on a leash and the Lab came flying out of the woods and put her head in his mouth. I started kicking him and screaming at his owner to put his bleeping dog on a leash. The owner told me to watch my language and strolled off never putting his dog on a leash.

I used to carry pepper spray but when my Bichons were attacked by two chow mixes I emptied the contents and neither dog backed off. I will now use my feet and anything I can get my hands on but I do not feel safer carrying anything. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## spoo novice (Mar 22, 2013)

so glad that Chagall is o.k.! Terrifying!


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

pandj said:


> I used to carry pepper spray but when my Bichons were attacked by two chow mixes I emptied the contents and neither dog backed off.


Wow, thats certainly interesting to know!




pandj said:


> Jolie was attacked by a huge Lab at the beginning of the summer. She was on a leash and the Lab came flying out of the woods and put her head in his mouth. I started kicking him and screaming at his owner to put his bleeping dog on a leash. The owner told me to watch my language and strolled off never putting his dog on a leash.


Ugh! There are SO many stories like that, of not only aggressive dogs attacking, but horribly arrogant, obnoxious owners. Its so maddening. When Panda was a pup and I was carrying the baseball bat, two dogs charged him. The owner was outside with them but they were off-leash. They werent big, but Panda was only 12 to 15 pounds at the time. I did exactly what I rehearsed in my mind.. Jumped in front of Panda, held the bat in a threatening manner, and shouted "GET BACK!". They stopped short and Panda and I were able to walk away, but I have to wonder what their owner felt. It couldnt have felt good to see her dogs charging at a guy with a baseball bat and an obvious determination to defend his pup. When I read stories of all these obnoxious owners with the off-leash aggressive dogs, I have to take a little pleasure in the fact that I probably turned the tables of fear that time.


----------



## MaryEdwards (Oct 29, 2012)

*how scary!*

What a horrible experience for you and Chagal out for a walk! So relieved no damage to either of you. What's one to do when you can't have a pleasant walk without the fear of being attacked. What a helpless feeling. There are leash laws that should be observed, and IMHO tickets issued for such infractions. 
Like at the bark park, one rule is the dog responds to verbal commands. I hated calling this to a woman's attention, but her two dogs (doesn't matter what breed) had Bentley on the ground and he was not but six months old. Such a shame we cannot enjoy outings with our dogs without fear of injury or worse. 
Again so glad you nor Chagal were injured!


----------



## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

Yikes. I just saw this thread. How horrible and scary. You did the right thing and in Chagall's eyes you're his hero. 

We've been lucky, only one of my dogs has ever been attacked. My first Spoo Roxy. That GSD picked the wrong Spoo to mess with. Roxy was a big and very dominate female. This GSD came out of nowhere and got the jump on Roxy but in nothing flat Roxy had him pinned to the ground and only let him up when he gave up.

Rick


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Whacky as this sounds, the refrain from Bruno Mars' song "Grenade" has been running through my head since "the incident." I now go around singing it to Chagall. 

_I'd catch a grenade for ya, (Yeah, Yeah) Throw my hand on a blade for ya (Yeah, Yeah) I'd jump in front of a train for ya (Yeah, Yeah) 
you know I'd do anything for ya (Yeah, Yeah) 
see I would go through all this pain 
Take a bullet straight through my brain :sing:_

On a more serious note, I have immersed myself in on-line reading and videos (some nightmare-producing stuff out there!) on what to do to avoid and manage an attack on your dog. I can't say I feel any more skilled, but I have found some value in this sort exercise. For one thing, seeing and hearing the snarling, growling, combative dogs and the cries of those set upon from the safe distance of my computer screen has helped me see how much the_ sounds _of an attack can raise your anxiety and distract your ability to think.

Attacks are so sudden and unfold so quickly in real time, watching some on-screen has allowed me to process more of what actually happens. I will say I am more undone then ever about the ferocity of some of the bully breeds prominently featured in many of the videos. During my viewing marathon I came across a video of a doe attacking a 14 year old one-eyed deaf dog. (The foolish owner allowed the dog to run loose!) The doe had a newborn nearby and misguidedly felt the need to protect it. When I told my dh he said, "_Great! _Now you have something _else _to worry about!" Sheesh, I am beginning to have fantasies of opening a nationwide chain of landscaped indoor dog walking malls--leashes a _must!:secruity:_


----------



## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

Wow! I am so sorry you had to deal with this!! And so glad both of you are OK. 

The dog trainer I have taken classes with is not a fan of dog parks, dog play dates or dogs being around other dogs. Her belief is that you dog needs only you and no other companions - especially other dogs. She has a Great Dane that was attacked by an off leash Pit Bull in a local park. He is so well trained he wouldn't leave her side - she just stood there and watched. She reported it and the family lied about what happened, Animal Control believed the offenders and nothing happened.

When I was a kid, our dogs stayed in the back yard - only occasionally did we take them for a walk (kids!!). The older blind one would get out of the yard sometimes at night, my father would take the younger one out to track him down and bring him home. There was a mean dog or 2 in the neighborhood and both owners were in denial about their dogs temperament.

As I sit here writing this I see my neighbors dog running loose - maybe its time to call animal control.


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

What a nightmare. Thank goodness you had the presence of mind and the bravery to protect your dog. I worry that I would freeze. I was bitten once as a child and another time if my husband was not with me I am convinced I would have at least suffered serious injuries from two loose pit bulls who were snapping, growling and drooling. It honestly reminded me of a trailer I had seen for the movie Cujo. Dogs have been aggressive to Swizzle but I had time to prepare. I am always very aware on walks as my neighborhood has hawks, coyotes ect. But I am keenly aware it is always possible to be surprised. I can see why that song keeps running through your head Chagall's Mom as the lyrics are certainly apt. I do think the attitude toward uncontrolled dogs is very slap dash even among animal control. When I called about a loose Akita with an eye infection in my yard they were unconcerned. A couple of years ago there was a loose dog who was aggressive with my Aussie. I got my dog inside quickly and fortunately his thick fur protected him from most of the bites although he did limp a little. The loose dog then tried to get in my house leaving long scratch marks on every door. I was able to make out his tag from the window as he was trying to break through that too but animal control was not out in the two hours this dog was trying to break in my house and I received no feed back on if they even bothered to contact the owner. I was not sorry to hear that this dog was run over by a car within the month. It is truly scary to read of so many of us experiencing issues of this sort.


----------



## Joy (Apr 25, 2013)

Sheesh, I am beginning to have fantasies of opening a nationwide chain of landscaped indoor dog walking malls--leashes a must!

This would be a GREAT idea!!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

CT Girl your story about the dog who ran loose in the neighborhood and met its end under the wheels of a car points out yet another reason why idiots who let their dogs go loose should want them on leashes. I trust Lily to walk with me off leash in my neighborhood, but I don't trust the drivers who roll through the stop sign on my corner and the people who go 50 down a residential 30 mile an hour street. She is always on leash to keep her out of the way of cars.

Obeying leash laws is to everyone's benefit and protection. Luce I agree with you about dog parks. We don't use them. We have worked too hard to develop stable well trained personalities in our dogs to risk having it all fall apart because of a fight at a dog park.

PoodleRick my GSD knows the poodle of this house is boss! He nearly always defers to her and on the rare occasions where he forgets who runs the show Lily is happy to give him a "gentle" reminder.


----------



## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Something must be off in the universe...besides some dog owners. Yesterday walking on a sidewalk a couple blocks from our house I heard something in the trees on my left. Jolie is usually on that side but she was attending to her pmails on the right . I turned slightly to my left and a GSD cane flying at us barking. I picked up Jolie,wrapped my body around her as much as I could. Turned my back to the dog and shoved treats into Jolie's mouth to keep her calm. I froze ...after what seemed like an eternity the owner started calling the dog and she turned around. As soon as she was about 12 feet away I walked about a block and then put Jolie down.

She was fine and pranced down the street to finish our walk. Scared the c... Out of me!

I have thrown treats away from us successfully before but this dog was on us when I saw her. Our community has pages of rules about everything you can imagine and these picky folks don't seem t get that leash laws mean them too.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ciscley (Jul 16, 2013)

Alkhe said:


> I'm just not into the idea of being armed, or carrying a club or anything. I refuse to live my life like that.


Personally, I refuse to live my life in regret. I'd rather be prepared. I also grew up poor in an extremely urban environment. I am always surprised by those in my current socio-economic bracket who seem to have grown up thinking terrible things cannot happen to them and therefore behave accordingly - oblivious and entitled until something happens and then outraged when it does.

Realizing the world is a dangerous place and taking precautions is not living in fear, it is living in the moment and not in denial. It is ensuring that you will continue to be living tomorrow, because as much as we care about the dogs in these attacks, the humans are equally at risk.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

pandj said:


> Something must be off in the universe...besides some dog owners. Yesterday walking on a sidewalk a couple blocks from our house I heard something in the trees on my left. Jolie is usually on that side but she was attending to her pmails on the right . I turned slightly to my left and a GSD cane flying at us barking. I picked up Jolie,wrapped my body around her as much as I could. Turned my back to the dog and shoved treats into Jolie's mouth to keep her calm. I froze ...after what seemed like an eternity the owner started calling the dog and she turned around. As soon as she was about 12 feet away I walked about a block and then put Jolie down.
> 
> She was fine and pranced down the street to finish our walk. Scared the c... Out of me!
> 
> ...


my condo association has an immediate $100 fine policy re violations of pet rules - that includes not picking up after one's pet and letting one's pet run off leash. of course, enforcement depends on people reporting violations and on having a strong general manager. some of those who have been caught in violation are often the most vociferous about others not obeying some other rule that has far less potential to cause damage. it's a can't win for responsible dog owners.


----------



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

So glad you are both ok, and sending you lots of love. In this month or last month's Whole Dog Journal there was a good article about what to do after a dog is attacked by a wild animal like a raccoon. You might find that helpful---her take was to use herbs and even doggie Prozac if needed early on to make sure the dog has no continuing stress about the situation.


----------



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Just for discussion purposes: I never let any large, new dog approach Fozzie. I simply pick him up until I can assess the situation. Fozzie has a strong sense of doggie propriety and he will correct any dog who gets in his face. So I know that he could get himself into a situation that would put him at risk. I also don't allow any big breed to get within 3 feet of me until I've decided it's ok. In the dog world approaching without respect or deference is a sure sign of a problem. (edit: I am NOT saying you did anything wrong here, just sharing advice, I read that you had no control over this!)

So I stare the dog, hold out my hand like a police officer in the "stop position" and say "NO!" in a loud, deep, booming voice. I do not give a rat's heiny what the other owner thinks. If asked, I use a phrase someone on the poodle forum gave me a long time ago, "It's not you, it's him." (which isn't true, but calms them down).

Just the other day I did this on a very ugly and mean looking boxer/pit mix and the owner ran down to me (looking rather scruffy, tattooed, and quite frankly dangerous himself), asking me aggressively, "Why do you pick your dog up in a DOG PARK?!!" He was seriously going to get in my face. When I mentioned that Fozzie's best friend is a pit bull (true story), and that Fozzie is picked up because he is unpredictable around large dogs, the owner calmed down and left us alone.

I don't want to get off on a rant here, but I do think men feel they can take liberties with women alone in dog parks, and when you stand your ground like I did yesterday, it's very challenging to some men with fragile egos. Outside of major metro areas, I bet it's even more threatening. 

Just food for thought.


----------



## cindyreef (Sep 28, 2012)

Oh my, I am so glad Chagall and you are fine. When you read something like this you immediately put yourself into that situation and consider what you would do. I would of reacted like you and grabbed the dog and lifted by the collar. But truthfully I may of taken it further and choked the..... out of him. Im like a mother when it comes to my Dex.

On another note I have neglected training him on leash until this summer. He is 15 months old and I should of did it when he was a pup, I know. But he is adapting very well and is getting used to large crowds and noise. Im still getting used to all the attention he gets. Many people even ask to take pics. 

Saturday he was "attacked" by a very friendly 10 week old puppy that weighs 2 lbs max. Dex didn't know what to do. It was HILARIOUS to see a 27" 73 lb poodle hop and jump like a scared rabbit. Im sure he didn't know what the scary thing jumping up on him was. There was so many people and they were laughing so hard! Even me! I still wonder if Ill see it on youtube lol.


----------



## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

FozziesMom said:


> Just for discussion purposes: I never let any large, new dog approach Fozzie. I simply pick him up until I can assess the situation. Fozzie has a strong sense of doggie propriety and he will correct any dog who gets in his face. So I know that he could get himself into a situation that would put him at risk. I also don't allow any big breed to get within 3 feet of me until I've decided it's ok. In the dog world approaching without respect or deference is a sure sign of a problem. (edit: I am NOT saying you did anything wrong here, just sharing advice, I read that you had no control over this!)
> 
> So I stare the dog, hold out my hand like a police officer in the "stop position" and say "NO!" in a loud, deep, booming voice. I do not give a rat's heiny what the other owner thinks. If asked, I use a phrase someone on the poodle forum gave me a long time ago, "It's not you, it's him." (which isn't true, but calms them down).
> 
> ...


That's probably an understandable sentiment. Just don't paint with too wide of a brush. We're not all douchebags.


----------



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

PoodleRick said:


> That's probably an understandable sentiment. Just don't paint with too wide of a brush. We're not all douchebags.


ha! no offense intended. FozziesPapa is a man.  

I did say "some men" in my defense. I happen to live in a "transitional" neighborhood in San Francisco and we have a lot of folks with substance abuse/mental health issues around here.


----------



## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

FozziesMom said:


> ha! no offense intended. FozziesPapa is a man.
> 
> I did say "some men" in my defense. I happen to live in a "transitional" neighborhood in San Francisco and we have a lot of folks with substance abuse/mental health issues around here.


Just messing with ya.









I remember San Francisco. I lived south of the city in Foster City in 81, 82 but used to go hang out in the city every chance I could. It was fun for awhile.

Rick


----------

