# Have you ever been torn between two breeds?



## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

I've posted in other boards on PoodleForum about my search for my next dog who will hopefully moonlight as a therapy dog. And I'm wondering how some of you have made decisions about your next breed when you are down to the final two good breed options and know -- each of these dogs will make me happy, each will have it's own challenge, each will succeed on the "job" and bring so much joy to people's lives.

I think I'm set on a Standard Poodle and then....a really spectacular Collie breeder/AKC judge/CCA mentor reaches out to me. She's got a track record of putting out successful dogs in conformation, agility, rally, obedience, AND therapy work. And she's deeply involved in the Collie Health Foundation. That is the kind of Poodle breeder I have been looking for -- all around success and "new school" in terms of health and breeding. I've talked to those closest to me, including my own mother, who grew up with Collies (and is decidedly Collie biased - because of their calm, gentle demeanor), and I am still torn. 

Ultimately, I need to make a decision, and it's just so hard. In some ways, this feels like when you're house hunting where you have this idea in your mind of what you want, but in reality, you sign on what is best at that time.

I'm waffling on puppy vs adult too. One day I'm set on an adult and the next day I'm like - well, I can live through two years of puppy antics and mold him from the get go. 

Sooo many decisions.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Ultimately you are looking for a good dog that can do the job. Unless the low shedding coat is an absolute requirement, I think there is nothing wrong with being open to another breed. I've known service dogs that were Giant Schnauzers, Labradors, Goldens, Doodles, Poodles, and German Shepherds. I've even met a service pony.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

You could always go with the third option… 

get one of each!!


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## X skully X (Nov 21, 2021)

Oh man, my most special dog was a border collie mix of some kind. I found him while camping at a festival. He was wandering around the outskirts of the festival in the woods. I didn’t intend to bring a dog home with me but I couldn’t just leave him there. He was maybe 3 months old? He followed me back to camp and dug a hole next to my tent. I asked everyone all weekend if anyone knew this dog lol. I was 19. He was so incredibly special and he was with me for 16 years before he passed. I will probably never get another collie because I feel like I would constantly try to compare the dog to my bubba, but I would whole heartedly recommend the collie breed to anyone because they are amazing dogs. When I was 6 years old I saw my first standard poodles. They were black and in the continental show trim. The lady who owned them took the time to introduce me to them and tell me a little about them and it was truly love at first sight. They really left an impression on me that lasted into my adulthood. I’m so glad I got the opportunity to welcome a standard poodle into my family. You have a big decision ahead of you for sure. Both breeds are amazing in their own ways. Really whatever breed you decide to get I don’t think you’ll be disappointed. This certainly isn’t your first dog rodeo and with the experience, dedication and joy you’ve show to the dogs you have I’m sure you’ll do amazing with whatever breed you bring home. Even if it’s not a poodle or a collie! Maybe have a heart to heart with yourself and try to imagine what the next 15 years look like and what dog do you imagine standing next to you in your minds eye.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

X skully X said:


> Maybe have a heart to heart with yourself and try to imagine what the next 15 years look like and what dog do you imagine standing next to you in your minds eye.


So true. And maybe that's part and parcel of this struggle. I have a tendency to research myself into oblivion (I work in clinical research! lol), and then...I follow my gut/heart at the end of it all. I forget this is my pattern every time I make a huge decision. I will continue chatting with people on both sides of this dog coin until that heart starts speaking and I get that "This is it" feeling.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

If you love both breeds equally, I would just go with the first good and suitable opportunity that comes along, and take it as a sign that this is what I need in my life.

If you can’t do that, then it means you favor the other breed, so wait for the perfect dog of that breed.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I am no help. Love both breeds. I also have decision paralysis about next breed, but my breed list is far longer than 2! 

I'd say if you want another touch of mischief in your life, if two terriers isn't enough, go with the poodle. 

if you need some calm, steady devotion, go with the Collie.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

I go with the best dog that I can actually get.

(I've always wanted a border terrier but have never found a good one that I could get.)


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

A collie would be a 1000x easier dog, imho. Standards are so much work with their coats, energy, health issues, sensitivity, and smarts. Out of all the spoos I've ever met, only Maizie and maybe one other dog had what I would consider a good therapy dog temperament (again, imho). Every collie I've met has been so calm and steady, but still connected to people--perfect for therapy work.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I see a lot of people settle on these two breeds. Collies seem a bit more vocal and spoos seem a bit more clownish, but they share a lot of traits.

I know a lot of spoos and collies make good therapy dogs. There is probably more variation in spoo lines so you would have to find a breeder aiming for the right temperament for therapy work. I also think spoo puppyhood may be worse than for collies, based on reputation.

Coat care is intensive for spoo or rough collie, but less so for smooth collie.

If you can't really make up your mind I would go with whichever breeder you like best.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

What a tough decision. I think I’d probably approach it like @Dechi suggested. But still....so hard. Collies are lovely.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I went with option 3 - one of each! When planning dog number 3 it was largely down to which of my preferred breeders of paps or toy poodles had the right pup available at the right time.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Out of all the spoos I've ever met, only Maizie and maybe one other dog had what I would consider a good therapy dog temperament (again, imho). Every collie I've met has been so calm and steady, but still connected to people--perfect for therapy work.


I’m surprised you said that. Poodles are one of the top three breeds used as service dogs. They are popular as therapy dogs. I know someone who is a PhD therapist working with children with head injuries who has a spoo, we were in obedience class together. My Babykins was a popular visitor to a local nursing home when she was a TDI therapy dog. I know several poodles who are used in therapy. I also know 2 poodles used as psychiatric service dogs for children with autism who attend school with the children (I helped them find breeders).

For me a large part of the equation is non-shedding. I don’t like dogs shedding on my clothes and all over the house. I prefer to fuss with groom them. I probably spend as much time grooming as I would constantly cleaning shed dog hair.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Skylar said:


> I’m surprised you said that. Poodles are one of the top three breeds used as service dogs. They are popular as therapy dogs. I know someone who is a PhD therapist working with children with head injuries who has a spoo, we were in obedience class together. My Babykins was a popular visitor to a local nursing home when she was a TDI therapy dog. I know several poodles who are used in therapy. I also know 2 poodles used as psychiatric service dogs for children with autism who attend school with the children (I helped them find breeders).


Well, perhaps I'm more picky than most. I believe most spoos are either too aloof or too nervous to be therapy dogs (my Frosty included) or service dogs, but that's just based on the couple dozen I've known up close and personal.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Skylar said:


> I probably spend as much time grooming as I would constantly cleaning shed dog hair.


Yes, that's exactly my thought process. And same costs overall probably, because whatever I would spend on grooming a Spoo will be an extra visit from house cleaning service.


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## Footprints&pawmarks (Mar 8, 2021)

As somebody who evaluates dogs for visiting pet programs and evaluates them in action, may I put in my 2 cents' worth (probably only worth a penny because of inflation!).

The most important trait of a great therapy dog is wanting to meet the next person, and the one after that. I've seen lots of dogs who pass the evaluation, but who get stressed during the actual visits. Owners tell me that the dog has diarrhea after the visit, for example. Or is happy to go into the first few rooms, but has to be persuaded to continue on. Or who would rather stay at the nursing station than go from room to room.

If I were picking a dog for this purpose, I wouldn't go for a puppy -- puppies change. I'd look for an adult, even a young adult, who demostrated this kind of bulletproof, outgoing, sunshiny personality. It's a lot rarer than most people think. When I'm at the facility, I frequently see owners enjoying the visits far more than their dog does.

"A good dog is full of confidence, happy to meet everyone, afraid of no one." (Fred McNabb, who selected and trained dogs for law enforcement.) You want a dog who is convinced that everybody in the world loves him and wants to pet him, and can't wait to meet them all.

And, if I were designing a more realistic evaluation, it would be in a busy, noisy place, with dozens of people going by. I would evaluate the dog after the 20th person greeted him, not the first.

I'm totally confident that my beloved well-bred, smart, highly socialized, well-trained spoo wouldn't be able to handle the stress, and so I would never ask it of him. I know it's a cliche, but I'd look for a classic golden retriever-type if I wanted to do therapy visits. Or any dog with that kind of attitude.

YMMV, and I welcome your thoughts.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

I really appreciate 


Footprints&pawmarks said:


> As somebody who evaluates dogs for visiting pet programs, may I put in my 2 cents' worth (probably only worth a penny because of inflation!).
> 
> The most important trait of a great therapy dog is wanting to meet the next person, and the one after that. I've seen lots of dogs who pass the evaluation, but who get stressed during the actual visits. Owners tell me that the dog has diarrhea after the visit, for example. Or is happy to go into the first few rooms, but has to be persuaded to continue on. Or who would rather stay at the nursing station than go from room to room.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the valuable insight - I really appreciate it. Honestly, I didn't think of it to that degree - the "tired out" factor for the dogs who aren't that extroverted and "optimistic."


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Footprints&pawmarks said:


> As somebody who evaluates dogs for visiting pet programs and evaluates them in action, may I put in my 2 cents' worth (probably only worth a penny because of inflation!).
> 
> The most important trait of a great therapy dog is wanting to meet the next person, and the one after that. I've seen lots of dogs who pass the evaluation, but who get stressed during the actual visits. Owners tell me that the dog has diarrhea after the visit, for example. Or is happy to go into the first few rooms, but has to be persuaded to continue on. Or who would rather stay at the nursing station than go from room to room.
> 
> ...


Thank you for better communicating what I was trying to say


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Footprints&pawmarks said:


> As somebody who evaluates dogs for visiting pet programs and evaluates them in action, may I put in my 2 cents' worth (probably only worth a penny because of inflation!).
> 
> The most important trait of a great therapy dog is wanting to meet the next person, and the one after that. I've seen lots of dogs who pass the evaluation, but who get stressed during the actual visits. Owners tell me that the dog has diarrhea after the visit, for example. Or is happy to go into the first few rooms, but has to be persuaded to continue on. Or who would rather stay at the nursing station than go from room to room.
> 
> ...


You make a good point. My Babykins loved going to the nursing home - there were random noises and crazy things going on but mostly going room to room was peaceful and she loved the attention. Same with visits to the library. I take her regularly to run chores and even shopping a few days before Xmas where stores are crowded (before Covid) she's fine and is happy to let people pet her. 

However I know someone who makes regular visits to a school for Autistic children. That's a very erratic, chaotic place. I was asked to have her visit, but I declined because I wasn't sure if this was a good environment for her - most dogs that visit have problems there. Most kids don't ambulate like normal people and the noises they make can be very loud and strange making it a stressful place to visit even for adults not used to it.

I did love that when we took our TDI test, it was in a large store/training facility (private, not a big box type) and it was Halloween. They had kids and people dressed for Halloween come participate in the test. They were told to act like zombies. It was a lot of fun for the people who came - everyone enjoyed playing zombie, they were laughing and the kids were really into the concept. Most of us taking the test also thought it was fun and totally unexpected ...... however a number of the dogs failed.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

My first standard poodle was wonderful with handicapped kids and also my middle school students. When I took him to the center where they worked with kids who had cerebral palsy he would lie down next to them and let them handle him all over. He was in full show coat, so the kids loved running their hands through his hair! 

I taught middle school English. I would take him to school from time to time and kids would be on their very best behavior in order to get to sit next to him. One of my most beautiful and yet sorrowful memories was when he gently licked a little boy from a poverty-stricken home. The boy threw his arms around that big dog's neck and said "no one ever kissed me before". Thinking of that still brings tears to my eyes.


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## Footprints&pawmarks (Mar 8, 2021)

Wow! What a memory!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This may or may not be a helpful idea but I've meant to ask if you'd like to meet up and spend some time on a nice afternoon over at S.Lake Park with me and my garden variety mpoos? 

They won't be apples to apples but might give you a sense of poodles in a neutral environment where they'll be around strangers and strange things .


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Johanna said:


> My first standard poodle was wonderful with handicapped kids and also my middle school students. When I took him to the center where they worked with kids who had cerebral palsy he would lie down next to them and let them handle him all over. He was in full show coat, so the kids loved running their hands through his hair!
> 
> I taught middle school English. I would take him to school from time to time and kids would be on their very best behavior in order to get to sit next to him. One of my most beautiful and yet sorrowful memories was when he gently licked a little boy from a poverty-stricken home. The boy threw his arms around that big dog's neck and said "no one ever kissed me before". Thinking of that still brings tears to my eyes.


Johanna, I used to teach and now am in the corporate world -- and those important moments are exactly why I want to do therapy work. Plus my mother has been in and out of the hospital, misses her dogs dearly when she has long stays, and I know that if a dog ever visited her -- it would be a moment of stress relief and joy.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> This may or may not be a helpful idea but I've meant to ask if you'd like to meet up and spend some time on a nice afternoon over at S.Lake Park with me and my garden variety mpoos?
> 
> They won't be apples to apples but might give you a sense of poodles in a neutral environment where they'll be around strangers and strange things .


That would be lovely! I will DM you my number. 

You all are the best!


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