# Is it possible to trust a breeder from a distance?



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm going to pm you, Kpoos!!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Maybe I should add that I talked to someone that said it's just not possible so you need to get the plane ticket and go visit the breeder no matter what and if you can't do that you aren't ready. I can see her point.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> What if you just cannot make a trip to visit a breeder? How can you trust a breeder to be honest with you if they live thousands of miles away? Is it stupid to think you can get a quality dog from someone you've never met?


I think I would ask to see testing if not posted anywhere make contact by phone and then ask for references


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

ive bought dogs from only a couple hours away, and dogs from hundreds of miles away. 

the dogs that I got from close by, turned out to not be great quality, the ones that were shipped were excellent. Im not saying that if a breeder is nearby their dogs will be crap, and vice versa- just that I was a victim of instant gratification LOL 


Its a crapshoot when a breeder is at a distance, so you just have to be that much more aware of what you are ultimately looking for. go with your gut


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

I think it's totally possible, but like all things, research and knowledge are the key. If I were to consider a puppy from a breeder I could not personally visit I would be looking for personal recommendations from people I trust, personal contact with the breeder and references.

Having said that, in my own search for a puppy, I have only considered breeders within driving distance (I consider that to be somewhere I could go to and come back from in a week-end.) I am just not comfortable getting a pup from someone where I have not personally met them or their dogs.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Another good tool that today's technology offers is videos of the home, grounds, litters, family, interaction, development, feeding, etc... of a potential long-distance breeder. It's kind of hard to hide anything if the camera is rolling!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> Another good tool that today's technology offers is videos of the home, grounds, litters, family, interaction, development, feeding, etc... of a potential long-distance breeder. It's kind of hard to hide anything if the camera is rolling!


I LOVE it if people have videos of their puppies. It's nice to see puppies moving around and playing and watch how they interact with their littermates and other people around them. You can always pick out alpha puppy that way and that's good to know when you are looking at temperaments.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Oh my Heavens...I HOPE SO!!!! I have sold pups coast to coast in Canada and the US, and not many of the folks are willing to pay the additional money to come all this way when it is not necessary. (I do not blame them. It can mean a full couple of days driving, plus motels, plus food, or up to a couple of thousand dollars for them to fly here). I match puppies to their lifestyle and preferences, and being with them 24-7 for the first eight weeks of their lives get to know them very well. This method of doing things has not failed any of us yet. Every person has been delighted with how their puppy has fit in with their family and lifestyle, their health and temperament, their conformation and attitude.

Yes, just make sure, whether buying from afar or from a neighbour, that the health testing has been done, that you research the pedigree, and that you build up a rapport with the breeder, so you know if you have a question or concern in the future, that they will be there for you. Dont just take testimonials you see on a web site at face value either. Anyone can get someone to write a letter and post it on their web site. Ask the breeder if you can get phone numbers or email addressses for some of these people and speak to them yourself.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I have to say buying from a breeder far away makes me very nervous. There are ways to minimize the risks though. This forum is a great tool for that and it's why it's so important to be able to discuss breeders open and honestly. I've had members here that I trust offer to visit breeders for me. I've had member here vouch for breeders too. I like getting references from a forum b/c it's independent. A breeder is more than likely going to put you in contact w/ someone they know is happy. You always have to consider the source. The breeder I'm considering is about 8-9 hours away, but she shows, so I was able to meet her recently. She also has friends in my area that are knowledgable breeders. I was able to go to one of their homes.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> Another good tool that today's technology offers is videos of the home, grounds, litters, family, interaction, development, feeding, etc... of a potential long-distance breeder. It's kind of hard to hide anything if the camera is rolling!


Videos are definitely a great tool, but can also be misleading. One high volume breeder I have seen is careful to keep the video trained only on the one whelping box but it is fairly obvious that it is only one whelping box of many. Not the type of set-up I would be comfortable with. But videos that show a wide pan and the pups in a variety of settigs are great!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I have to say buying from a breeder far away makes me very nervous. There are ways to minimize the risks though. This forum is a great tool for that and it's why it's so important to be able to discuss breeders open and honestly. I've had members here that I trust offer to visit breeders for me. I've had member here vouch for breeders too. I like getting references from a forum b/c it's independent. A breeder is more than likely going to put you in contact w/ someone they know is happy. You always have to consider the source. The breeder I'm considering is about 8-9 hours away, but she shows, so I was able to meet her recently. She also has friends in my area that are knowledgable breeders. I was able to go to one of their homes.


Good for you and we do give out phone numbers if this is necesary, we have definately got happy puppy buyers. So we check with them first of course because it is a privacy issue as well . I do not make the proctice of just giving out numbers. WE have shipped but would rather you could come here. WE encourage that., we have hotel listed on our site as well and have even let folks stay at our house... This forum is defiantely a great tool but I have seen some very biased opinions as well so you still need to check it out. Build a repoir with the breeder. We think it is important have our phone number right there on the site. As well as copies of all the testing that we have done. Everything is there . 
so I guess it comes down to what do YOU want as a puppy buyer. There are definately ALOT Of breeders out there.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> Videos are definitely a great tool, but can also be misleading. One high volume breeder I have seen is careful to keep the video trained only on the one whelping box but it is fairly obvious that it is only one whelping box of many. Not the type of set-up I would be comfortable with. But videos that show a wide pan and the pups in a variety of settigs are great!


We would rather play with the babies than video...


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> We would rather play with the babies than video...


I don't really see how the two are mutually exclusive. I fully intend to make use of the video feature on my camera when my mom has a litter next year! I only wish we had more video of the pups (and dogs) we have had in the past. But that's for selfish reasons, not for puppy buyers.


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

I'll add... just as much as you are nervous about buying from afar... so will the good breeders be thinking that of you.
I am very picky where my pups can go... and being part of a forum like this helps me to see who I would or would not sell to from reading their many posts. I've found some here already.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I so enjoy having my fiance videotape while I play with the kidlets, and vice versa. I think it is very important for potential buyers to see the pups playing with my Grandchildren (they may have children) or socializing with my pack (they may have other dogs) or interacting with visitors, so they can see exactly the type of socializing goes on here, and maybe they will hone win on one particular personality thery really like or don't like. Believe me, no way to cover anything up, as I post a gazillion videos on my Facebook business page. If I were staging my videos and photos, with the crazy number of both that I post on FB, all I would have time to do is videotape and stage. If you see my home, you will see someone cleans it (that would be me. I am a tad OC about my house) so obviously what you see is what you get. I have had nothing but fabulous feedback from the FB posts, because my people can feel like they are a huge part of the puppies first eight or nine weeks.


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

I loved the fact I got to go and visit the puppies before I came to pick up my girl. However the amount of pictures and videos I had seen before I came to visit had me already in love with them all long before I met them. You can tell so much through those pictures and videos of the love and the care that was provided by their breeder. These things are priceless and part of reasons that our Betty Jo and Jenny have fit so perfectly into our home. 

Its was great to be able to see how excited they were to be able to see Cherie again when she came to our home to visit us. (They pinned her to the couch and licked off all the makeup she had so carefully applied lol)

I guess my bottom line in this is you need to find an ethical breeder that is in it for the love of poodles. That loves and cares for them like she was going to keep them all for herself. Of course one that does all the testing etc as well. If you can find a breeder that does all that and you click with too, then if they are close at hand or if they are a country away I still think that you are fortunate to have found the right breeder for you.


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## TinyPoodles (Nov 25, 2009)

*Buying Long Distance*

I have always bought long distance because the pedigree I wished was not around where i am.

I have had good and bad experiences "early" in my dealings.
My own fault of course and I am not blaming anyone but myself for my lack of research. 

*The Bad experiences:*
When I didn't buy from a breeder that had OFA numbers for her health testing, I just trusting her that it was done like she said it was...it was not.. 
I got blinded by the fact that she had a puppy I wanted when I wanted it.
Shame on me... If I had purchased a puppy from OFA'd parents then I could have saved myself a real disappoinment on a puppy that failed OFA after 2 years $$. 
Thankfully now I do know I can check the numbers on OFA myself (didn't know about this early on). 
For anyone else wishing to do this here is the web page:
http://www.offa.org/
NO OFA = health testing *NOT DONE *PERIOD.
In Canada I just got my Poodle OFA hips, elbows, patella, cardiac, thyroid for:$300.00 All of the results of ANY OFA'd dog is displayed on the OFA web page *UNLESS* they fail something, then that will not be displayed if the breeder doesn't wish for it to be displayed (another reason to double check OFA results). 
Plus the shipping expense to OFA which is around $45.00 or less. 
This is a small cost for a breeder to pay 1x for the lifetime of the dog.
Especially when they are charging $1,000.00-$2,500.00 a puppy. 

Breeder never did get me those "current" photos, video of the parents.
So when my puppy faded out a great deal at 6 months of age I was suprised as the breeder "said" their parents were dark color. 

Pedigree didn't arrive before I had to make a final payment... Puppy arrived before the pedigree. When the pedigree arrived I was horrified...Yes solid champion pedigree that was so inbred beyond normal limits. Result was a totally crazy hyper poodle that would not fit in my household.
You can search pedigrees that are certified on the AKC web page $
or for free (not always acurate but give you an idea) here:
http://www.poodlepedigree.com/

Getting a puppy and not receiving registration papers... 
After 6 months still no registration papers... phone call to the registry confirmed litter had never been registered... 
ALWAYS get a litter registration number before you get the puppy (especially if you plan on showing or breeding). 

I bought a puppy from a breeder that trash talked every breeder that she had not sold to or bought from. Every question I asked about health testing was fluffed off, as she complained about everyone else not health testing. I totally fell for it, thinking she must be a good breeder to be so upset about other people...HA HA... the health testing paper work on the parents she said she would send me, arrived, and were for other dogs in the pedigree or outdated CERF testing (has to be done yearly to be valid). So disappointing when Breeders you trust, try to deceive. 

*Good Experience:*
Breeder was available at all times with quick email responses to what probably seemed like paranoid questions to her at the time. Breeder was not "afraid" to email me and have her comments appear in writing. I found breeders that were dishonest wished to *ONLY* speak on the phone (nothing they said could be tangible, if on the phone). 

Wanted to know about me and refused to sell breeding rights to me without knowing my plans and pedigree. Most reputable breeders will only sell on "limited" registration as they care about their breedings. 

Breeder had goals and plans on keeping pups from the same breeding I was interested in, because they were showing their pups. Breeding for a reason not just for income. 

Price was at par or above the average. I'm not saying you can't get a great deal out there...but the "deals" I have gotten have always come with a lot of cost later down the road. Good breeders have a great deal of expenses doing health testing and showing and general care for their dogs, that BYB's just don't have, so their price is lower. Taking your chances when shopping for a bargin. I choose to know pay upfront and know what or have a better chance at getting quality over discount. 

My good breeder belonged to a breed club because she said she wanted to learn more about the breed and what is going on in the dog community and for health clinics and such. Most clubs have a code of ethics to follow and if a member doesn't meet those they are no longer a member. The bad breeder with the discounted puppy was not a member of any clubs as she said they were too clicky ... I found out later there are many clubs you can be a member of that are not clicky, "if" you have an interest in learning more about any topic surrounding dogs. But if you are not willing to follow the club's ethics or guidelines, then you won't/can't be a member. 

The puppy I bought was microchipped and had a Health certificate with the microchip number on it to prove it was the same puppy that was Vet inspected healthy. 

*POINTS:*
You should not have to do a great deal of research to find information about a breeder's dogs. If it is a struggle to find stuff or get informtion...RUN..

Good breeders will have health testing numbers right on their dog's web page as they will be proud to show them and hope you will verify them.

Good breeders will display all the titles and accomplishments of their dogs with show photos ..because they are proud of what they have achieved and will continue to achieve.

Good breeders will be able to send you updated photos or videos of their dogs....OR... have that on their web pages BEFORE PURCHASE. 

If dealing with breeders on the phone then have all your questions written down so that you can keep a breeder focased on answering your questions. Don't get baffled by all the double talk. 

I hope some of my experiences will help someone !!

Tinypoodles


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

This is really good information thank you. It is easy to get caught up in the have it right now mentality. I need to remember a lot of these things and write them down. I also don't like vague answers. I want a straight forward answer and I've even gotten some breeders that will almost act offended by me asking if their dogs are health tested. I didn't think of asking for current pictures of the sire and dam, at least the dam because a lot of times they use something outside of their lines. All good information to help the normal person avoid costly mistakes.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

TinyPoodles said:


> NO OFA = health testing *NOT DONE *PERIOD.
> In Canada I just got my Poodle OFA hips, elbows, patella, cardiac, thyroid for:$300.00 All of the results of ANY OFA'd dog is displayed on the OFA web page *UNLESS* they fail something, then that will not be displayed if the breeder doesn't wish for it to be displayed (another reason to double check OFA results).


Thanks for sharing your experiences! Just one thing - I'm fairly sure that at least in the past (and maybe currently), breeders have to tick a box and pay a small fee in order to post on the OFA website. So it is possible that breeders have done the tests but you won't be able to verify it on the OFA website. Some breeders also do not put all evidence of health testing on the OFA website (so for example hips will show but other tests won't).

So first stop for a pup buyer if breeder says they have done testing is OFA website. If dog or tests aren't listed there, or only incomplete testing shows, then ask for copies of ALL health testing done on BOTH parents before you put any money down for the pup or have received the pup.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

TinyPoodles said:


> I have always bought long distance because the pedigree I wished was not around where i am.
> 
> I have had good and bad experiences "early" in my dealings.
> My own fault of course and I am not blaming anyone but myself for my lack of research.
> ...


I am sorry to disagree with you on the OFA posting. We have just been all over this on a Poodle Breeding thread called Health Testing. It is fine to agree to disagree, but please do not imply that another country's registry is not as reliable as OFA. In Canada we have OVC (Ontario Veterinary College, part of the University of Guelph, the largest Vet college in out nation) that assesses hips as does OFA. Some Canadian breeders prefer posting there, some OFA. Some would rather retain their certification and fax or snail mail them to interested parties for the sake of privacy and less risk of their results being used by someonme else or being tampered with. I am certainly not going to go over it again- there is more than enough to read on that thread. Different countries, different options. Not wrong- JUST DIFFERENT! As a Canadian breeder, I am getting a little offended by the lack of acceptance of some Canadian practices. Again, not wrong- JUST DIFFERENT!


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## TinyPoodles (Nov 25, 2009)

*Health testing*

Well the tick box was I think $7.00 you are correct. 
I pay it without even thinking about it or hesitating.

I mean as breeder...wouldn't you feel that this would be important enough to get displayed ?? If you went through the expense and your dogs *passed* is $7.00 really that much to Pay in the big picture ?

IF a breeder can't afford this..I would have to ask what else are they trying to save money on ? 

Just my thoughts...My lesson was learned the hard way ...


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't think Arreau ever said she couldn't afford it...
I'm pretty sure she stated a few seconds ago that she PREFERS something other than OFA
if the animal is health tested...isn't that all that matters?

I'm not a breeder...clearly xD...
but as a buyer ((who also learned their lesson with a crappy breeder)) who the dog is health tested threw doesn't matter...as long as its done


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## TinyPoodles (Nov 25, 2009)

*ouch*

I guess I touched on a sore spot...with Arreaupoodles

I live in Canada and yes years ago, before internet everyone in Canada OVC Xrayed their dogs. Then OFA became the standard for breeders (all breeds) just cruise show peoples web pages to see.

Today the world recognizes OFA. The cost is the same as OVC and OFA does more testing. 

OVC however can be done at 18 months and OFA at 24 months.

Sending OVC reports or what ever by email or fax (paper) are EASY to change and forge. OFA results online for the world to see... yeah changes not going to happen. 

*I stick to my statements...*

IF you know North America is OFA'ing and those numbers and results are instantly verifiable online (and yes you could still email and fax the results if that is your preference). 

Why would you "say" you are doing differently from *EVERYONE* else unless you have something to hide or decieve about ?

Preference... REALLY.... when everyone is doing OFA you choose OVC ?
Why the preference ??

Sure send me your results if you have nothing to hide I would love to see them. 
[email protected]

I'm so sick of breeders trying to rip someone off like I was ripped off. 

I looked at your other posts where you are advertising pups. 

You said you had one litter all sold now and two litters due within a few months...so that is what... 3 or more litters in a 12 month period.

That would mean you can provide OVC results on 
3 females and 1 or 3 males whose health testing 
OVC hips, elbows you have results for right ??
Oh and CERF and Thyroid and Cardiac too right ??

Thank you for being willing to prove that you are honest. I can't wait to see that you are one of the few honest people that are just "choosing" to not OFA.

Tinypoodles


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## TinyPoodles (Nov 25, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> I don't think Arreau ever said she couldn't afford it...
> I'm pretty sure she stated a few seconds ago that she PREFERS something other than OFA
> if the animal is health tested...isn't that all that matters?
> 
> ...


Why did you think this was directed in any manner towards Arreaupoodles ?
I'm saying what happened to me and how others can avoid being deceived.
Is Areraupoodles not doing health testing either...geesh good to know


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## TinyPoodles (Nov 25, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am sorry to disagree with you on the OFA posting. We have just been all over this on a Poodle Breeding thread called Health Testing. It is fine to agree to disagree, but please do not imply that another country's registry is not as reliable as OFA. In Canada we have OVC (Ontario Veterinary College, part of the University of Guelph, the largest Vet college in out nation) that assesses hips as does OFA. Some Canadian breeders prefer posting there, some OFA. Some would rather retain their certification and fax or snail mail them to interested parties for the sake of privacy and less risk of their results being used by someonme else or being tampered with. I am certainly not going to go over it again- there is more than enough to read on that thread. Different countries, different options. Not wrong- JUST DIFFERENT! As a Canadian breeder, I am getting a little offended by the lack of acceptance of some Canadian practices. Again, not wrong- JUST DIFFERENT!



ANother country's health testing is FINE if you can "view" it and PROVE that it is done...anyone can "say" it is done and provide paper work. But... where can you verify that paper work ?

OVC is a VERY respected College that does a lot of testing.
OVC do certify hips and elbows.
OFA certify hips, elbows, patella, thyroid, cardiac and soon shoulders

I live in Canada and to me it is paramount that my puppy people know that the pups they are buying are from health tested parents and that I'm not just BS'ing them the way that it was done to me. 

I also wish to do all the health testing that is available out there and OFA allows me that.

I am a CANADIAN doing Canadian practices...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

TinyPoodles said:


> Well the tick box was I think $7.00 you are correct.
> I pay it without even thinking about it or hesitating.
> 
> I mean as breeder...wouldn't you feel that this would be important enough to get displayed ?? If you went through the expense and your dogs *passed* is $7.00 really that much to Pay in the big picture ?
> ...


If a breeder cant afford it...how insulting!!

I am fairly certain that posting the results on OVC was not an option before 2007, but respected breeders still used it. As it stands now, OVC is saying they will post some done earlier, if you apply to be posted and pay $5.00, In the meantime, if a breeder tells you they have had testing done, ask to see their paperwork. A hand written note from their vet in certainly not acceptable, but a certificate from a reknowned, though different organization, with a certificate number on it that can be tracked back to the organization, I am sure you would be safe in assuming those results are legitimate.


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## TinyPoodles (Nov 25, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> If a breeder cant afford it...how insulting!!
> 
> I am fairly certain that posting the results on OVC was not an option before 2007, but respected breeders still used it. As it stands now, OVC is saying they will post some done earlier, if you apply to be posted and pay $5.00, In the meantime, if a breeder tells you they have had testing done, ask to see their paperwork. A hand written note from their vet in certainly not acceptable, but a certificate from a reknowned, though different organization, with a certificate number on it that can be tracked back to the organization, I am sure you would be safe in assuming those results are legitimate.


AGAIN... OVC is "fine" IF a person can call OVC and give the number and have it "verified" as being true. Too many breeders "say" or even provide fake ones.

But knowing that the acceptible standard is OFA and people can check it and know what you are saying is true... 
Why WHY would you choose OVC ???

Maybe I can get an answer this way...

WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE OVC ?


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Hmmmmmmm.....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

TinyPoodles said:


> I guess I touched on a sore spot...with Arreaupoodles
> 
> I live in Canada and yes years ago, before internet everyone in Canada OVC Xrayed their dogs. Then OFA became the standard for breeders (all breeds) just cruise show peoples web pages to see.
> 
> ...


Pardon me....I had a litter in August, who have all gone on to their new families. I will be having another litter next August to the same parents (Father has been OFA-d and his eyes cerfed) Palmares Elegant Lion of Judah(Mother has been OVC-d with eyes being re-done prior to breeding) Cantope Hollyberrry by Kitsu. I would be happy to fax you my matriarchs OVC certificate. I have two young females, Arreaus Ill Follow The Sun and Arreaus Golden Slumber who will not be two until September 2010. One will be bred (pending testing) in December 2010, and the other will be bred (pending testing) June 2011. The two younger females will be OFA-d, ONLY because I am dealing with more and more American prospects. So, no, I do not have results on the mothers of two of the litters you are mentioning because they are far too young to test, but rest assured, they will be done before they are bred, their results will be on OFA for all the world to see WHEN THEY ARE DONE!!!!!! And yes, everyone will be getting their thyroid work ups done too, and I can send you my matriarchs thyroid results too as this was done.

If anyone feels the OVC is antiquated and out of date, PCC has a health registry page, and over half of the members are listed as using OVC. PCC is not great at keeping things up to date, so I am sure that there are some of these people who have swung to OFA, but others still who have remained with OVC and will remain with them for years to come.

My future stud dog, Dayspring Sun King at Arreau, (Flynn) has had his hips pre limd through OFA, has had his vWd and NEWS done through OFA and his eyes CERFED. His pre lims do not show up on OFA because apparently they do not post pre lims.

Patellas and elbows are a toy breed problem, and my vet, who I happen to respect, says until it proves itself a bigger problem in Standards does not need to be done.

I hope you are enjoying yourself, and you might be wise to get your facts straight before you start ragging on someone. Having two of the three litters you mentioned expected in 2011 does not make them anticipated in the next few months!! I breed and rear my puppies in my home. I would NEVER have three litters in a year, I would NEVER have two litters on the ground at the same time. Get your facts straight Tiny Poodles. Donèt have a clue where you got your info about my breeding scvhedule, but you are WAY OFF BASE!! One litter coming in August 2010, one litter coming February, 2011, one litter coming August 2011.


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience tinypoodles. Perhaps that is what has made you so toxic to a member who has just been providing information. Clearly you should get your facts straight before you start posting such absurd and nasty posts.

As for OFA being the only useful testing out there just for your information I know that in addition to OFA there is also Penhip and OVC.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I did not choose OVC. Holly was owned by Cantope Standard Poodles and I was her foster Mother. All of her testing was done at their request. It was them that chose the OVC route, but in 2006, if I had been the one to request the testing, I likely would have gone OVC myself. WHY...well I am a small volume breeder who never anticpated the incredible response I have been getting from the US. I am Canadian and living 40 miles from the University of Guelph, am very much aware of the respect their facilities have all over the world. Now that I am aware of such an incredible American interest, I will be posting on OFA, as I have done with my stud dog Flynn. I am fairly certain that Cantope also had the utmost respect of the OVC-s way of doing things as they have used Hollys Grandson Cantope Zoric Maximus quite frequently in their breeding program.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

desertreef said:


> I'll add... just as much as you are nervous about buying from afar... so will the good breeders be thinking that of you.
> I am very picky where my pups can go... and being part of a forum like this helps me to see who I would or would not sell to from reading their many posts. I've found some here already.


Very true !


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

TinyPoodles said:


> Well the tick box was I think $7.00 you are correct.
> I pay it without even thinking about it or hesitating.
> 
> I mean as breeder...wouldn't you feel that this would be important enough to get displayed ?? If you went through the expense and your dogs *passed* is $7.00 really that much to Pay in the big picture ?
> ...


I wasn't really commenting on whether they should or shouldn't... I was just pointing out that you were slightly incorrect, and that a dog who is not listed on OFA may in fact have their health testing done. So as a pup buyer I would not give up on a breeder simply because I didn't see their dog(s) listed on OFA, I would just directly ask for proof that the health testing has been completed.

Anyway, back on topic. Buying a pup long distance, pros and cons!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> Thanks for sharing your experiences! Just one thing - I'm fairly sure that at least in the past (and maybe currently), breeders have to tick a box and pay a small fee in order to post on the OFA website. So it is possible that breeders have done the tests but you won't be able to verify it on the OFA website. Some breeders also do not put all evidence of health testing on the OFA website (so for example hips will show but other tests won't).
> 
> So first stop for a pup buyer if breeder says they have done testing is OFA website. If dog or tests aren't listed there, or only incomplete testing shows, then ask for copies of ALL health testing done on BOTH parents before you put any money down for the pup or have received the pup.


Good answer it must be sent in and verified by someone whether it be in Canada the OVC or OFA is must be a certifiable from someplace.. Good post ! 
I also think that emailing is a start then the phone I personally have a bit if trouble with the video as our satelite is way slow..Do to say that this is VERY important would be sad . So I* maintain* a website and post pics and pages every week of the babies, then at 6 weeks we microchip and from then on we know who is who . So we do try ... Once the babies have been chosen the microchip goes on all the paperwork We microchip all the dogs so this is on the testing as well.. WE also have reference s from the folks that we have sold to ..What as puppy buyer would make you feel safe ?


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I did not choose OVC. Holly was owned by Cantope Standard Poodles and I was her foster Mother. All of her testing was done at their request. It was them that chose the OVC route, but in 2006, if I had been the one to request the testing, I likely would have gone OVC myself. WHY...well I am a small volume breeder who never anticpated the incredible response I have been getting from the US. I am Canadian and living 40 miles from the University of Guelph, am very much aware of the respect their facilities have all over the world. Now that I am aware of such an incredible American interest, I will be posting on OFA, as I have done with my stud dog Flynn. I am fairly certain that Cantope also had the utmost respect of the OVC-s way of doing things as they have used Hollys Grandson Cantope Zoric Maximus quite frequently in their breeding program.


Just because Cantope did the testing does not mean that you could not post results does it ? I do not think I would buy a dog that I could not test or send for certs on . That is horrible !


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Just because Cantope did the testing does not mean that you could not post results does it ? I do not think I would buy a dog that I could not test or send for certs on . That is horrible !


I do not find it horrible or sad or anything else except a remarkable blessing for me!!! Holly was owned by Cantope at the time of her testing. I had the opportunity to whelp and rear one litter from her which I shared with Cantope for six golden weeks. Those six weeks gave me an opportunity to watch and see what kind of Mother Holly was, and get a hands on look at the kind of puppies she produced. STUNNING black kids, who Cantope held two girls back from for their own breeding program. One of them is the Mother to Cantope Zoric Maximus who has been used rather extensively in their breeding program of late. I am rather proud to own his Gfrandmother as he is a beautiful, healthy, titled boy.

I acquired this remarkable dog, who was fully health tested. Because she was registered to Diane Welsh at the time of the testing, she is the only person who could post results. (Back to the privacy thing). Thankfully, my own vet was who was commissioned to do the work, and my vet handed ME (woohoo) all of the certificates and documentation. So, they are in my possession to send out to people who are looking at a puppy from me. For anyone to imply these documents may have been altered is positively ludicrous. The vet would have been in on it, OVC would have been in on it, I would have been in on it, Cantope would have been in on it. I mean seriously....

So, horrible? I got myself a healthy, happy, wonderful girl, who produces stunning, remarkable, healthy puppies. Her health testing was completed on somebody elses dime and I have the paperwork to prove it. So horrible...not so much. A fantastic blessing for whom I will be eternally grateful...oh my goodness YES!!!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I do not find it horrible or sad or anything else except a remarkable blessing for me!!! Holly was owned by Cantope at the time of her testing. I had the opportunity to whelp and rear one litter from her which I shared with Cantope for six golden weeks. Those six weeks gave me an opportunity to watch and see what kind of Mother Holly was, and get a hands on look at the kind of puppies she produced. STUNNING black kids, who Cantope held two girls back from for their own breeding program. One of them is the Mother to Cantope Zoric Maximus who has been used rather extensively in their breeding program of late. I am rather proud to own his Gfrandmother as he is a beautiful, healthy, titled boy.
> 
> I acquired this remarkable dog, who was fully health tested. Because she was registered to Diane Welsh at the time of the testing, she is the only person who could post results. (Back to the privacy thing). Thankfully, my own vet was who was commissioned to do the work, and my vet handed ME (woohoo) all of the certificates and documentation. So, they are in my possession to send out to people who are looking at a puppy from me. For anyone to imply these documents may have been altered is positively ludicrous. The vet would have been in on it, OVC would have been in on it, I would have been in on it, Cantope would have been in on it. I mean seriously....
> 
> So, horrible? I got myself a healthy, happy, wonderful girl, who produces stunning, remarkable, healthy puppies. Her health testing was completed on somebody elses dime and I have the paperwork to prove it. So horrible...not so much. A fantastic blessing for whom I will be eternally grateful...oh my goodness YES!!!


Okay I think I see now so the privacy that you were talking about is the health testing belonged to the owner of this bitch and you were not entitled to it then. That would be true here in America as well . I meant horrible in that you bought a dog and weren't entitled to her testing . I guess I am assuming that you bought her anyway . Not horrible in any way that you had her of course, because we all know that you are a wonderful home . ....I wondered because you had mentioned that this was a high volume breeder in a previous post and that you did not recommended them. So I guess I was just going with that..So this breeder was a good place to get a happy healthy fully genetically tested cantope dog that has produced wonderful puppies in the past and the present..And that is wonderful that you are the grandmom of such wonderful Cantope dogs that are so important in their breeding program  So happy for you ! That is good to know thanks so much for posting this !


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I used to love the way they operated, and their browns were drop dead GORGEOUS!!!!! I cannot not, with a clear conscience, send buyers to a breeder who is producing so many puppies. You can be high volume and still get some decent puppies, and I would say Zoric Maximus is one of them! And Holly is not their breeding. They bought her from the US, had her imported here, and they only had her a few weeks until she came to live with me. So she has been my girl, whether I was her Mommy or foster Mommy since she was a young baby. I may have some issues with who imported her, but will always be thankful I was involved with them at some point, or I would not have become the owner of this wonderful lady, or Grandma to her amazing , stunning children!


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

desertreef said:


> I'll add... just as much as you are nervous about buying from afar... so will the good breeders be thinking that of you.
> I am very picky where my pups can go... and being part of a forum like this helps me to see who I would or would not sell to from reading their many posts. I've found some here already.


BRAVO for saying this Desertreef....many, many posts that reveal very interesting information on puppyseekers. Keep those babies safe!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I used to love the way they operated, and their browns were drop dead GORGEOUS!!!!! I cannot not, with a clear conscience, send buyers to a breeder who is producing so many puppies. You can be high volume and still get some decent puppies, and I would say Zoric Maximus is one of them! And Holly is not their breeding. They bought her from the US, had her imported here, and they only had her a few weeks until she came to live with me. So she has been my girl, whether I was her Mommy or foster Mommy since she was a young baby. I may have some issues with who imported her, but will always be thankful I was involved with them at some point, or I would not have become the owner of this wonderful lady, or Grandma to her amazing , stunning children!


TI think I have to agree she has had some pretty babies


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you. This past litter is oging to make me very proud!! Beauty and brains. Brandi is a Strathglen, and is oging into her first CKC show in the Spring, and Plumcrazy is putting Princess Lucybug Fancy Pants in Rally and possibly agility...YEP, I am the proud Grandma!!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Thank you. This past litter is oging to make me very proud!! Beauty and brains. Brandi is a Strathglen, and is oging into her first CKC show in the Spring, and Plumcrazy is putting Princess Lucybug Fancy Pants in Rally and possibly agility...YEP, I am the proud Grandma!!


Good for you !!! I am pretty excited about Neelix going to be foundation for red in Sweden .. I am way proud.... He is awesome, smart dark and wonderful conformation... I am excited to bring in lines that have never been seen her as well.. So the future is looking pretty bright for the reds eh? Good for you Plumcrazy !!!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Way to go. It looks as if we have one going to Germany next year, but won't be shown because her tail will be docked and they cannot show docked tails, and I have to assess the pups because this one will be doing search and rescue work. The woman looking at having her has checked with the kennel club, and they will not allow docked tails to be shown. And it will take a special kind of dog to do search and rescue work, so no way to know at 3 days of age who will be the best in that litter for that type of work. Yes, it is indeed wonderful to see some changes happening in the reds.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_What an amazing service to be chosen for search and rescue! You must be very proud of that. I would love to see pics of that special puppy when the time comes.
_


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you so much Spoospirit!! Yes, I am VERY proud and VERY excited. I just hope all of the restrictions and formalities don't cause a hurdle that is impossible to jump over. I know the German woman who is looking to get this baby is very involved in Search and Rescue. She has two dogs in it now and they work with her in it, but just thinks it would be very cool to have the first red Standard, if not the first Spoo in Germany doing this kind of work.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Thank you so much Spoospirit!! Yes, I am VERY proud and VERY excited. I just hope all of the restrictions and formalities don't cause a hurdle that is impossible to jump over. I know the German woman who is looking to get this baby is very involved in Search and Rescue. She has two dogs in it now and they work with her in it, but just thinks it would be very cool to have the first red Standard, if not the first Spoo in Germany doing this kind of work.


So are you titling your dogs in this area ? Searcha nd rescue ? I have a friend in Indiana that is .. What do you title you dogs in ?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Trillium and I are hoping her oldest son will get one of the girls (or both would be better) into agility. He has a really strong desire to do this, and what a great way to keep a kid out of trouble and what an awesome bonding experience for child and canine!! They will both be going for the CGC next year. Plumcrazy will be doing rally and hopefully agility too. Brandi will be going for her Canadian championship beginning in the spring. The search and rescue puppy...I won`t be doing anything in that area, just assessing the pups to find the right one for this lady`s needs. She will know exactly what I should be looking for and I look forward to doing it. 

What about you bigredpoodle...what titles have you got on your Spoos... What are you hoping to achieve....

I am looking forward to Betty-Jo`s litter in 2011. We have chosen the sire, and I am VERY confident my pick puppy will definately show worthy, and I may bite the bullet and show her myself. It has been a long time, and I know all about the politics and colour bias, but surely to goodness not all of the judges out there are colour blind-lol!!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_To get back to the subject. 

I do believe it is possible to trust a breeder from a distance. 

Having said that, there is a lot of work involved in it. If I were considering a puppy from a distant breeder, I would be doing all the research that I could on that breeder's practices, testing, titles, pedigrees, etc. I would also want references from others who had purchased puppies from the breeder. I would have a list of all of the questions I needed answers to right in front of me when speaking to them and be writing down all of the information given to study later. If I had any uncomfortable feeling during my conversations with that person, I would simply say thank you and move on. I find that my intuitive nature tends to serve me well. I would take as long as it took to find the best fit for me in a breeder as well as a puppy.

Even with the best efforts on your part, it is still possible to end up not getting what you thought you were going to get for a variety of reasons. So, yes, there is still an element of a crap shoot involved. Misunderstandings on either side are bound to happen now and then when dealing long distance. Misconceptions, whether deliberate or not, are bound to happen as well. Human nature plays a big part in it. There will always be an element of buyer beware whether you are dealing with the breeder in your county or one on the other side of the world from you. 

The risk goes both ways. You may end up making a deal with an unscrupulous breeder and get taken for whatever reason. But, then, an ethical breeder, I am sure, has to worry about the unmet buyer and whether their precious puppy is actually going to end up in a good-forever home or with someone who will end up neglecting it.

If there is one thing that is sure about life, it is that nothing is really guaranteed. If you end up with an unacceptable puppy, it is a crushing disappointment. But, then, you need to have the strength of character to move forward and deal with it; especially for the sake of the unfortunate puppy. 

__~ Disappointment is the nurse of wisdom. ~
Sir Boyle Roche
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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

VERY well said Spoospirit!! There are risks in everything we do, and it is up to us to try and keep them as minimal as possible. We can get fooled by someone a mile away selling puppies, or someone 1,000 miles away. Or we can get a perfect puppy from a wonderful breeder in our own neighbourhood, or 1,000 miles away. It is up to us to do our homework and like you said, to some degree go with our gut. That is how plumcrazy and Trillium and I became friends and how they ended up with their girls. We clicked, we still talk regularly on the phone and via emails and Trillium and I hope to meet Plumcrazy and others in person at a Poodle reunion in Oklahoma City next spring or the following. On tope of being able to end up with an awesome Spoo, you may be able to make a life long friend as an added bonus.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Trillium and I are hoping her oldest son will get one of the girls (or both would be better) into agility. He has a really strong desire to do this, and what a great way to keep a kid out of trouble and what an awesome bonding experience for child and canine!! They will both be going for the CGC next year. Plumcrazy will be doing rally and hopefully agility too. Brandi will be going for her Canadian championship beginning in the spring. The search and rescue puppy...I won`t be doing anything in that area, just assessing the pups to find the right one for this lady`s needs. She will know exactly what I should be looking for and I look forward to doing it.
> 
> What about you bigredpoodle...what titles have you got on your Spoos... What are you hoping to achieve....
> 
> I am looking forward to Betty-Jo`s litter in 2011. We have chosen the sire, and I am VERY confident my pick puppy will definately show worthy, and I may bite the bullet and show her myself. It has been a long time, and I know all about the politics and colour bias, but surely to goodness not all of the judges out there are colour blind-lol!!


I am showing AKC and perhaps I may venture into UKC time permitting of course WE are pretty excited !


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

desertreef said:


> I'll add... just as much as you are nervous about buying from afar... so will the good breeders be thinking that of you.
> I am very picky where my pups can go... and being part of a forum like this helps me to see who I would or would not sell to from reading their many posts. I've found some here already.


I would say the vast majority of people on this forum are animal lovers who often put more time and energy into their poodles than the average pet owner. I would think most breeders would be thrilled to be contacted by such high calibre homes.

Breeders should be choosy about where their puppies go. It's one of the hallmarks of a good breeder. I never trust a breeder who doesn't ask questions about me or my plans for their puppy.


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## TinyPoodles (Nov 25, 2009)

*Buying from distance*

Well I think the POINT of my posting is that if a Breeder *ANY* Breeder says they have done something...
be it a title in anything, or health testing check it out.

OVC does give numbers...so ask for those numbers and call OVC and check them out before purchase.

If a breeder says parents are a champion ...check it out.
Just takes a quick email or phone call to the organization to verify information at the source.

I now do this if I am considering any purchase long distance...better to take my time and verify things than to find out after purchase. 

OVC is here: 
[email protected]
Tel: 519.824-4120 ext. 54161

OFA is here:
Email: [email protected]
Phone: (573) 442-0418
http://www.offa.org/apps.html

PennHip is here:
[email protected]
http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Default.aspx?alias=research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhip

and of course everyone knows CKC, AKC and UKC's info.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Okay then so what is it that is expected ? It seems like nothing is right ..


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Okay then so what is it that is expected ? It seems like nothing is right ..


I'm pretty sure what's expected is that tests are done and posted so that the information is easily accessable. If you want someone to spend $1500+ on one of your puppies you should have the appropriate testing easily available for all to see. I've never heard of this OVC because I don't live in Canada and do not seek to buy a puppy from there but I don't see the problem with using OFA across the board when you are selling puppies to people in the United States. Why not just use one that is recognized internationally?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I personally just feel that if the animal is tested...((And clears the tests)) the person/group/origination shouldn't matter
especially since they both test the same things, the only difference I can see from this thread is the posting of the OFA v. the OVC, and some people personal preference to the other

as long as there was health tests done((and it can be proved))...should it matter who it was done threw?


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> I personally just feel that if the animal is tested...((And clears the tests)) the person/group/origination shouldn't matter
> especially since they both test the same things, the only difference I can see from this thread is the posting of the OFA v. the OVC, and some people personal preference to the other
> 
> as long as there was health tests done((and it can be proved))...should it matter who it was done threw?


_Well said, Keith. I agree 100% Just do your research and go wherever you need to go to get that information. In the end, it is your personal decision as to whether or not you are comfortable with what you have gathered and whether or not you wish to purchase the puppy._


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _Well said, Keith. I agree 100% Just do your research and go wherever you need to go to get that information. In the end, it is your personal decision as to whether or not you are comfortable with what you have gathered and whether or not you wish to purchase the puppy._


AMEN!!! 

By the way, to all of the Americans on this Forum, Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. May you be surrounded by family, great food, wonderful memories!!!


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _Well said, Keith. I agree 100% Just do your research and go wherever you need to go to get that information. In the end, it is your personal decision as to whether or not you are comfortable with what you have gathered and whether or not you wish to purchase the puppy._


Well said both Keithsomething and spoospirit! Every puppy buyer has to decide for themself what they're comfortable with. There's no such thing as a perfect breeder, but there's probably a breeder out there who is perfect for YOU!


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## *skye* (Oct 17, 2009)

I think, generally, go with your gut. It rarely steers you wrong. 
After you've narrowed the list down based on that, then go through all the research, health testing, pedigrees etc. and make your final choice.

I bought one of my dogs from a breeder I didn't go and visit until the day I picked up my pup. All I knew was that she seemed to genuinely love her dogs, was super knowledgeable about the breed, and answered every single question I threw at her with ease and confidence. I knew after talking to her on the phone for just 15 minutes that I was comfortable buying a pup from her. All that she told me checked out, and when I went to pick up the pup I learned that my gut was right. One of the best decisions I've ever made.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Keithsomething said:


> I personally just feel that if the animal is tested...((And clears the tests)) the person/group/origination shouldn't matter
> especially since they both test the same things, the only difference I can see from this thread is the posting of the OFA v. the OVC, and some people personal preference to the other
> 
> as long as there was health tests done((and it can be proved))...should it matter who it was done threw?


I agree why does it matter?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

TinyPoodles said:


> Well I think the POINT of my posting is that if a Breeder *ANY* Breeder says they have done something...
> be it a title in anything, or health testing check it out.
> 
> OVC does give numbers...so ask for those numbers and call OVC and check them out before purchase.
> ...


I am sorry but just by reading your post you sound very familiar ..... :rolffleyes:


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