# Obedience before starting agility



## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

In my experience you can even start agility training without formal obedience classes. Depending on the instructor, beginner agility classes may be completed mostly on leash when in class. At the very least, early foundation work & obstacle introduction is. It would be dangerous to have a free-for-all on contact equipment  At home with fewer distractions I rarely train with a leash.

That being said, I honestly believe that agility improves focus for many dogs as they get further along. Also I've seen & experienced dogs that have a lot of formal obedience can have trouble working off of your right side. Keep in mind that agility dogs work off of both sides of your body.


Agility is all about positive reinforcement so yes you have to be willing to let go of the leash. Think of it as learning a new way to have your girl want to behave & offer appropriate responses on her own vs needing correction from you. 

No I don't think it will be confusing for her.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Yeah, agree with poolann. At least at my training center, you can start with a dog as young as four months, without much obedience training, as beginners class is all ON leash. Of course you will need obedience later, in stays and contact behavior, etc., but all that can be developed as you go along.

Try to avoid using aversives when training, especially an active sport like Agility in which you dog must work away from you with confidence while still taking directions from afar. Dogs who are nervous about earning "corrections" have trouble with this sport. 

If you like seeing confidence, precision, and self-control, I hope you're using Crate Games! It sounds like the kind of program you'd appreciate! Please feel free to take a look at Sugarfoot's videos (my username on YouTube is the same as here, Quossum) for a look at a dog trained without aversives.

Good luck! Agility is the BEST!

--Q


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## gr8pdls (Jul 13, 2010)

*Agility and Obedience go together*

I start basic Agility and Obedience foundations right from the get-go. Down, sit, stay, come, rear-end awareness and focus games can all be started at an early age. The formal Obedience exercises aren't really used in Agility so it shouldn't be confusing at all. 

Its all about shaping behaviors no matter the activity. Just treat each exercise like any other trick. There are some behaviors that cross over between Agility and Obedience. A start line stay in Agility is really no different than the long sit or down in Obedience. 

It seems to me that primarily training Agility first is easier. Adolescent Poodles are too full of energy and dis-tractable to be as precise as needed in Obedience. Once a Poodle is about two or three years old, they settle down quite a bit and are ready to focus on the task at hand.

Go ahead and have fun with both activities.


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## amarantine (Sep 5, 2014)

Thanks guys! So I started 100% positive and struggled because my pup doesn't love treats of any sort...unless there's a novelty element involved like the teacher giving it to her. There were times she'd spit out liver, hot dogs, cheese, you name it. I've tried skipping meals before training and I think I'd have to fast her more than a day each time to make her excited about food - not my cup of tea. Then there are times when the world is razzling. I bet I could very slowly up the distractions until she is reliable in the real world, but honestly I can't stop taking her for walks or off leash romps until then. Hence using occasional corrections to regain attention.

Sooo long story short, philosophically for OB, I have tons of respect for people who make all positive work...but I struggle. I do use lots of treats and tug right now. For agility I'll give all positive a go, am just wondering if I'll run into the same treat-ignoring issues! The most positive reinforcement for her seems to be novelty and excitement.


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

amarantine said:


> Thanks guys! So I started 100% positive and struggled because my pup doesn't love treats of any sort...unless there's a novelty element involved like the teacher giving it to her. There were times she'd spit out liver, hot dogs, cheese, you name it. I've tried skipping meals before training and I think I'd have to fast her more than a day each time to make her excited about food - not my cup of tea. Then there are times when the world is razzling. I bet I could very slowly up the distractions until she is reliable in the real world, but honestly I can't stop taking her for walks or off leash romps until then. Hence using occasional corrections to regain attention.
> 
> Sooo long story short, philosophically for OB, I have tons of respect for people who make all positive work...but I struggle. I do use lots of treats and tug right now. For agility I'll give all positive a go, am just wondering if I'll run into the same treat-ignoring issues! The most positive reinforcement for her seems to be novelty and excitement.


I struggled with my male GSD who is not really food motivated or toy motivated in OB. He is so soft in temperament that I can't even raise my voice at DH. I've had him since a pup so the issue is his personality. Raise your voice & he acts like he's been beaten. In other words I feel your pain about motivation. I finally found that what he finds most rewarding is to be allowed to jump on me. My point is that you may need to look outside of the usual motivators for your girl. I totally get your concerns about the need for attention in the real world. She is still very young so adolescent behaviors are to be expected. 

As a trainer, my recommendation is to students to do as you stated, slowly introduce distractions into training but possibly use a no-pull harness or collar for control until you are getting an offered response. It is a bandaid not something I consider a permanent solution. 

I do think the fun of agility will be more helpful than harmful for your girl. Agility instructors can be very creative in finding motivators


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I really needed not only to have trained but titled in obedience before Lily had enough focus for agility. I use positive only for agility and positive only when teaching new obedience behaviors but do give verbal and mild physical corrections (such as repositioning the dogs) when I need to in obedience if the dog should have done the behavior correctly the first time. Does your puppy like to tug? For Lily that is a very great reward.


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## amarantine (Sep 5, 2014)

Yep she is young so I think things will keep improving  but part of it is just getting out in the world, seeing the sights. The trick with distractions is that in a city, they're very hard to control or get away from. For instance a skateboard comes at you, you can't walk across the street, and nowhere to turn.

Lily, yes tug does work better. Can you shape behaviors with tug? I've experimented with shaping games in my house and watched pup think about the effort vs fun, then walk away after a few treats...ha! Ok then.

I think I will see if I can go to the first class, see what happens, and ask if I can transfer to a later class if pup isn't ready.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Why don't you ask if you can transfer to a class with a later start date before you start so you are sure? Maybe also talk to the instructor before the class starts to express your concerns and see if the instructor's answers fit with your thinking. 

I have used the promise of a tug as the target for contacts in agility. I also use it just as a time out activity in between activities in long training sessions. I can't say I've used it directly as a tool in shaping a behavior per say, especially not in obedience.


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

Tons of great advise on this thread. If you have the time available then I really think you have nothing to loose and a lot to gain in a foundation agility class. This should also give you a safe place to practice focus work and tug can definitely work as a reward in agility! If your dog loves something use it - for one of our dogs that means a tennis ball - food means zip to her literally we've tried this in a seminar - put out several types of food and she ran to the tennis ball. Sometimes this makes it more difficult but it can be done  Best of luck to you and I hope you will join us on the agility thread as I am so often awed by the support on this board - simply amazing!

http://www.poodleforum.com/24-perfo...-hunting/22143-agility-sharing-ups-downs.html


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## amarantine (Sep 5, 2014)

Yeah! Definitely going to inquire more about transferring to a later class. Hoping things work out well but we are happy and moving forward in the world either way.


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