# Toy bred to a standard?



## ItzaClip

I'm probably going to sound really ignorant, but isn't that a risk with buying a moyen/Klein (which I assume you knew you had since dad was advertised as such). I have nothing against them, but wonder if it's like crossing any large & toy breed -you can get really cute small versions or mismatched body part sizes....

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## Pudelhund

I did a lot of research before selecting this size. A Moyen is simply a smaller standard. Nothing more. When I spoke to the breeder I was told she followed the same principles. Breeding a small standard to a small standard. I didn't find out about the pedigree until after I brought him home. Yes, I should have asked for the pedigree before hand but I trusted the people's recommendation and the breeder was extremely knowledgable. 
I understand its always buyer beware. 
Has anyone else had this experience? Does anyone know about underbites in toys?


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## Ciscley

When I researched Moyens (after hearing about them during my PF lurking) it seemed that some may breed Mini to Standard to try and speed up the process of getting consistently 15 - 18 inch dogs, but I never heard of anyone doing a toy to a standard. Yikes!


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## N2Mischief

I don't think toys have any more problems with underbites then standards.


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## peppersb

A moyen (or klein or medium) is a 4th size that is bred in Europe and other FCI countries. It is 14 to 18 inches. (The Fédération Cynologique Internationale or FCI is an international federation of kennel clubs based in Belgium with 86 member countries. Its breed standard defines four sizes of poodles.)

In the US and Canada, this size has become popular with pet owners so people have started breeding it. But breeders are using the words moyen or klein to mean all sorts of different things. It could be a dog descended from the official FCI moyens, or a small standard bred from small standards, or a mini-standard cross, or any combination of the above. This is the first time I have heard of breeding a standard to a toy! As someone else said, YIKES!

The problem with breeding two dogs that are very different in size is that you often get offspring that are oddly proportioned--often short legs and long bodies. I'm not surprised that there might be problems with jaws when you combine dogs with such a big difference in size.

Would you be willing to share the name of the breeder, either by PM or here in this thread?


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## Carrie-e

I never thought that could physically happen! How odd. Toys and standards are such opposites. I can understand you being upset.


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## Quossum

Possibly AI (artificial insemination) was used in the breeding, as far as the physical possibility of it, though I wouldn't put it beyond a determined toy in a natural breeding.

As others have said, the Moyen is a "real" thing, exists officially in Europe, and unofficially here in the States by various and sundry means. It is a desirable size and seems to be becoming more popular; a breeder whose website I follow has just added the size, which she openly reveals she got by breeding an oversized mini dog to a small standard bitch, and one could follow the progress and see pics of the parents the whole way.

Breeding a toy (even an oversized one) to even a small standard seems to be asking for trouble. Undershot jaws are more of a problem in toys (to my casual knowledge), but I would be more concerned about the overall proportions of how such a mixture would play out. 

Did this breeder actually lie to you about how her Moyen line developed, or did you just assume based on what you'd heard? The answer to that question would have great bearing on how indignant I would feel upon the revelations in your pup's pedigree. Or maybe since the toy is back a generation or two she felt that she truly was already breeding "smaller standard to smaller standard" and felt no need to mention the toy line? Either way, it sounds like not enough questions were asked or not enough information was freely given. Or both.

If you are truly unhappy with the pup, you could *possibly* use this as a basis to return him, especially if you feel his health is compromised by the physical traits you mention. If you don't want to go that route...then just take it as a lesson learned and take good care of your pup. Wait on neutering until physical maturity so that he can get the full benefit of the sex hormones for proper growth. Does he at least seem like he's going to turn out the size you want?

Moyens here in the States are just like Partis...you have to *really* exercise your "buyer beware" powers, because some breeders are really going about things the right way to fill a niche and still honor the breed, while others...aren't.

Good luck!

--Q


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I would say breeding a toy to a Standard is awfully risky! There could be all kinds of weird things surface in the conformation of a resulting puppy! When the reds were first developed, this was achieved by breeding a mini to a standard and apparently the first couple of generations were quite an abomination with min legs and standard bodies. You dog's bite could be a result of this pairing. I too would be very upset!


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## PoodlePaws

My 2 toys have normal bites. 


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## Jacknic

Your puppy's bite could be caused from the crossed, and it is possible the bite will correct itself. Poodle heads can grow in strange stages, especially with breeders who like long lean heads. As far as the pedigree, with AKC, poodles are registered as "Poodles" each variety is not separated, the breeder just marks the box at the top of registration papers to which variety she thinks the dog will end up, but it is not an ethical practice to cross the varieties due to different health issues. Were either of the parents health tested? Unless you have a contract that states you can return the dog with a full refund you can have your concerns but he is what he is. As long as you do not have plans to breed this puppy in the future you should not fret too much, and enjoy your puppy.


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## liljaker

I may be the odd one out here, but I would think that the 3 varieties of poodle should comfortably satisfy everyone. As I mentioned before, people looking for small standard poodles should just check with breeders as I have friends who have small(er) female spoos that are all healthy, tested spoos, just on the smaller size in the scale. I guess it's like mixing a lab and a poodle to get a doodle what is the point from the breed perspective if each one is already popular, unless it is for $$$ only .......I also know people with oversize minis, up to 18" that are all healthy, tested dogs, conformationally correct -- what is the reason again for a "new size" ???? I understand the moyen/klein has been popular in Europe, etc., but my question is more along the lines of why? Why not a smaller spoo or larger mini? I would love to hear the reasoning, that's all.

Yes, yes I know they are gaining in popularity, but I wonder why and how they differ from a large mini or smaller spoo. Not trying to stir up anything here, just curious.

My Jake was a very oversize mini, and I think the sire was from Europe, which may account for it. He was a great size, but was still a mini.


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## Jacknic

Some breeders have claimed they are doing the mini to standard cross for health reasons --looking for hybrid vigor: where have we heard that before -- doodles?? It is the same breed but all three varieties have their own health issues so my thought is breeding them together you can get a poodle with all the problems, just as in doodles. What I find funny is breeders that claim this but they don't even do health testing so how concerned are they? I do know of some toy show breeders who have bred to mini's trying to fix the heads on the toys, only to breed the next generation and have the toy head pop back up again. (Toy heads have more back skull, a rounder eye, and fly away ears.) People can find a small standard or a large mini if they search, IMO I think these people doing this breeding are just looking for the lazy buyer who thinks they will get a version of a small standard. Miniatures do not have the same personality as a standard, and just as doing a doodle cross cannot guarantee a non shedding dog, the mini/standard cross cannot guarantee a standard temperament in a smaller package. JMO


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## 3dogs

I have not heard of crossing Spoo to Took. Doing research pedigree might help. There are plenty of Oversized Toys. My Louisa is an OT at 12". While researching possible studs I found a 13" stud out of 10" AKC Champions go figure. The papers ONLY let you put a check mark as to size. I groom plenty of OT since going for <10" is really, really hard to do. That I'd why I marked Louisa's papers ad Mini due strictly to her size & not because of her lineage.

I really like the Moyen/Klein size but would only buy from a breeder that imports their stock from Europe. Standards in the US very rarely ho under 20" have yet to even know of anyone with a Spoo under 21". That is totally due to the Conformation ring & the attitude that you have five a Champion to breed. I find it a bit hogwash, since we have essentially eliminated the 16-19" Spoo. Now the OM is a bit weird to me because breeders are striving for that 15" Mini but if one reads the breed standard it States that 2 equall dogs in the ring that the SMALLER one is desired. So why breeding the 15" & not the 13" minis? 

Oh , well as others have stated just love your dog & lesson learned for the future. Pictures would be cool.


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## Pudelhund

I specifically inquired on how the smaller Moyen was developed in the breeders program. I was told small standard to small standard. I was very careful to ask that question as I knew breeders were taking shortcuts to create this now popular size.
In regards to health testing, I was told that extensive health testing was done on each parent of my dog. I never received the proof. 
I take responsibility for failing to gather proof of health testing. However, the breeder lied to me. I made it perfectly clear what I was looking for...a small standard resulting from breeding of the same. 
The pedigree came to me late due to a skirmish between the breeder and the co breeder. 
While the underbite is undesirable, as long as it doesn't affect my pups health, it's ok. I know a good scissor bite can go off.
I am most concerned about his health in the future. I worry about his hips and joints due to the breeding of a toy to a standard one generation back.
I don't believe I have any recourse other than reporting my pups health issues to the Poodle Health Registry.
I wanted to share my story and see others opinions. I fully believe that while a buyer has a responsibility to ask the right questions, it is also the breeders responsibility to disclose information truthfully. I feel o was lied to purposefully. 
The breeders website advertises the pups and the sire as small standards. It was in conversation that the breeder used the word Moyen.


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## Pudelhund

I also wanted to note that other breeders recommended this breeder to me. As an outsider looking in, it is difficult to discern the reputable breeders from the non. You who are involved in this circle have many connections and know many stories. Since I have entered the world of poodles (even though I've always owned poodles) I have learned a lot.....I find there are more smoke and mirrors than meet the eye. 
I find it disturbing given the recent attitude towards private breeders. There are many breeders who do an excellent job with their lines and are honest about their breed. The standard poodle is already fraught with health issues. Why compromise the gene pool by adding in a toy? 
I am familiar with the Standard Poodle Project....I am just saddened that this happened. 
Of course, I will love and enjoy my poodle. That goes with out question. I simply find it troubling that this occurring. And of course I feel angry I was lied to...who wouldn't??


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## 3dogs

Yes, I would say you were lied too. I am not sure what your recourse is. I would be really interested in knowing who this breeder is. Not to flame them but to see their website. I would without fail post your dogs pedigree in Poodle Pedigree, so anyone doing research may come across your pedigree. I wish I could find more info on the topside of 1 of my poodles but since people don't put up their pedigrees it is hard to do research. I am sorry you were lied too & possibly I would contact the breeder at your total annoyance that you were lied too.


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## Joelly

Yikes! I can't believe this. I'm so sorry but I'll be upset too.

When I was out looking for another toy, I met a breeder who disclose that the toy pup which is available will have an under bite. I don't know what that means but I feel unsafe buying from her. So I kept on looking. In the end I found Edison. I do appreciate her honesty.


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## Jacknic

Pudelhund said:


> In regards to health testing, I was told that extensive health testing was done on each parent of my dog. I never received the proof.
> I take responsibility for failing to gather proof of health testing. IQUOTE]
> 
> Pudelhund, it is possible to check on health testing, AKC registration numbers for each parent are found on the registration papers, you can go to the OFA website and punch them into the search box. Some of the testing, such as hip have to be sent into OFA to be graded but some health testing can be done and not registered --although I always wonder why some one does that, but it might give you a little clarity. I get asked about a certain breeder a lot and I say "No, she lies" this is exactly what I am talking about, I always wonder about a breeder that claims a dog is "fully" health tested and then find out they have one maybe two test completed on them. You did ask the right question, what buyers don't understand is they have to follow through with, "Can I see the results?" Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


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## Chagall's mom

*Pudelhund*: What kind of health guarantee did the breeder provide? Do you have in it in writing? I'm sure you're feeding and exercising your pup appropriately to help ensure he develops well. And you've probably discussed your concerns with your vet so he can keep a watchful eye on how the pup grows. Upsetting as your story is, it's sure to help others know they should insist on seeing the health test results and pedigree info up front. I'm glad you're getting good direction now on how you can research things more thoroughly. As others have said, as he grows your pup's appearance will change and hopefully his "parts" will come together nicely. I wish you the best of luck with him. Thank you for bringing your story to the forum.


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## 3dogs

I have to say that myself & my breeder have done health testing but neither one of us have sent our results to OFA. My issue is I am not sure how much money yo send & do I need more forms yo fill out or the ones that were given to me from the Certified Vets. So I have my results & will create a folder for each pup with each test result in the folder. I just can't figure out the OFA. I have done Patellar Luxation, PRA/PRcd, OFA yearly Eye. These are the tests for Toy Poodle.


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## Jacknic

It is a little tricky at first, the cost to file most test is $15, yes I know it does add up, but here is something to think about: You can send each testing in one at a time, there is an application form for each test, once that test is filed everyone has record of it, everyone can see it for generations to come, future breeders can look back and see if the line was tested for PRA or other issues, it is a legacy you leave your breeding program. You can start with your young boys or just a pair you are getting ready to breed. I promise you it is something you will never be sorry you did, and something to always look back and be proud you did.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Applications


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## Aubrey

3dogs said:


> I have to say that myself & my breeder have done health testing but neither one of us have sent our results to OFA. My issue is I am not sure how much money yo send & do I need more forms yo fill out or the ones that were given to me from the Certified Vets. So I have my results & will create a folder for each pup with each test result in the folder. I just can't figure out the OFA. I have done Patellar Luxation, PRA/PRcd, OFA yearly Eye. These are the tests for Toy Poodle.


Just call OFA- they will be more than happy to tell you how much money to send them. They will also be able to tell you exactly what forms you need and exactly what parts you need to fill our vs your vet.


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## grab

Pudelhund said:


> In regards to health testing, I was told that extensive health testing was done on each parent of my dog. I never received the proof.


 I have no experience with the toy to Standard crossing, but as far as health testing goes, many of the test results are accessible to the public on the OFA website. I always check this site myself when looking for a breeder.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

If this is who I think it is I would be just as upset that the mother was about seven months old when bred. Can you respond to my pm when you get a moment to satisfy my curiosity? And if the answer to my question is affirmative, please be in touch with Paragon and/or Apres Argent who will help you find info and report any issues in the future.


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## Pudelhund

Please understand I am not here to publicize the breeders name. I just needed feedback from the group. 
I will report the breeder to the proper channels. 
Thank you everyone for all of your input.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Pudelhund said:


> Please understand I am not here to publicize the breeders name. I just needed feedback from the group.
> I will report the breeder to the proper channels.
> Thank you everyone for all of your input.


Sadly, there are no proper channels. It is not illegal to breed a Standard to any size or any breed. It is not illegal to breed a 7 month old bitch PUPPY. But whether or not it is illegal, at least half of this equation is pretty damned immoral, and the other half is pretty unprofessional and unethical if you have not informed your puppy buyers or furnished them with a pedigree they can trace before they buy! To not enlighten one's puppy buyers about the fact their dam was a puppy herself, therefore likely not fully tested, and the fact they have Toys behind them, now causing the risk of other health issues not generally seen in Standards is wrong. If people know all of this and still choose to buy a pup, then they have gone into their ownership with their eyes wide open. You can begin to make a difference by posting the bite issues on PHR.


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## Fluffyspoos

Pudelhund said:


> Please understand I am not here to publicize the breeders name. I just needed feedback from the group.
> I will report the breeder to the proper channels.
> Thank you everyone for all of your input.


There was a breeder that kept breeding really young dogs and only stopped once she was outed. Maybe you can save some conformational (and health) disasters?

I'm also really curious.


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## Jacknic

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> You can begin to make a difference by posting the bite issues on PHR.


I don't think you can post the bite issue until the puppy is a year old and you are sure there IS a bite issue. I too don't think it is "nice" to post your problem and then want to protect the breeder, but that is your decision. But you did say that this breeder was recommended to you and I think you should let those people that recommend the breeder know that you are not happy with what you found out after the fact.
Sorry you had to learn a lesson but sharing with PF will help someone else know what to look for when searching for a puppy.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Jacknic said:


> I don't think you can post the bite issue until the puppy is a year old and you are sure there IS a bite issue. I too don't think it is "nice" to post your problem and then want to protect the breeder, but that is your decision. But you did say that this breeder was recommended to you and I think you should let those people that recommend the breeder know that you are not happy with what you found out after the fact.
> Sorry you had to learn a lesson but sharing with PF will help someone else know what to look for when searching for a puppy.


I could not agree more. I sure hope I never gave any indication this was a breeder to trust. And if you ever do feel like sharing in private or public who the breeder is, it helps people like me get educated as to who I should or should not refer people to.


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## Pudelhund

I'm not trying to protect the breeder. I didn't know the breeder was using an under aged poodle to get this litter. 
When I said proper channels....I guess I was referring to telling Paragon and Après Argent. I was also planning on reporting the underbite as well.


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## Pudelhund

So your advice is to bare it all?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

YES!!! But facts only. Don't put yourself at risk of getting into trouble.

Paragon and Apres Argent are very involved in protecting the breed and outcrossing to create diversity. They are also huge proponents of PHR. and it not being used as a witch hunt but as a tool for others.


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## poodlecrazy#1

I really hope I am not overstepping boundaries by posting my question on another persons thread. I am truly sorry for your difficulties with your breeder. I was wondering how you go about searching your poodles pedigree for health issues and how you get the word out about health issues they are breeding? If I need to ask this question in my own thread let me know and I totally will. 


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## Pudelhund

I don't mind you jumping in the thread at all. :0)
I can't answer.....can you find health issues noted in the Poodle Registry?


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## poodlecrazy#1

Pudelhund said:


> I don't mind you jumping in the thread at all. :0)
> I can't answer.....can you find health issues noted in the Poodle Registry?


I have never even heard of it before! I just looked it up and from what I can see you have to registered before you can use it, so I registered and am waiting to hear back from them. I will definitely search on there though,thank you for the reference. 


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## CharismaticMillie

Nevermind


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

CharismaticMillie said:


> Thank you for stating this. PHR should not be used as revenge or as a witch hunt. In order for it to continue to grow as a tool for breeders, people need to feel comfortable posting health issues. This won't happen if it's used as a witch hunt.


Unfortunately, in an awful lot of instances it is though. I think a lot of breeders are terrified to post issues or encourage their buyers to because of what other breeders might do with that information.


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## peppersb

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> I really hope I am not overstepping boundaries by posting my question on another persons thread. I am truly sorry for your difficulties with your breeder. I was wondering how you go about searching your poodles pedigree for health issues and how you get the word out about health issues they are breeding? If I need to ask this question in my own thread let me know and I totally will.


There are three web sites that you can use to search poodle pedigrees. To find a dog on any of them, it helps to have the registered name (or part of it) or the registration number.

*offa.org:* This site has health testing info. You can check the site to see what testing is recommended for each breed, and you can look up test results for individual dogs. Dogs that meet the testing requirements get a CHIC number, and that indicates that the dog is fully tested. If you see test results on this site, you can be confident that they are legit. Some breeders test their dogs and do not list the tests on this site either because they don't want to pay the fees or because they don't get around to it. If they tell you that the dog is tested but it is not listed on offa, ask to see the certificate.

*phrdatabase.com:* You need to create an account to use phrdatabase, but it is free and easy. This site has info about diseases that have been diagnosed in specific dogs. If you have a dog that is diagnosed with an inherited disease, there is a simple form that you can (and should!) send to phrdatabase to make this info public. It has to be signed by the owner and by the vet that made the diagnosis. It can be helpful to look up dogs on this site, but you need to be aware that not everyone reports their issues to phrdatabase, so there are plenty of unreported diseases. Also, it is important to be aware that there are no pedigrees that are entirely free of inherited diseases.

*poodlepedigree.com: *This site has pedigrees that go back are far as info is available. Anyone can fill in the information, and the site keeps track of who enters info. Feel free to add your own dog! Check out the bulleted options at the bottom of each pedigree for all the different ways you can display the pedigree and/or other info.

You can use any of these sites to get info on the parents and offspring of a dog. Poodlepedigree and offa will tell you the variety (standard, mini, toy) of each dog in the pedigree. I find it interesting to compare the birthdate of parents with the birthdate of offspring to see which breeders are breeding their bitches too young. Also, COI (coefficient of inbreeding) info is available on poodlepedigree and phrdatabase. Some people think that the phrdatabase calculation of COI is more accurate. %Wycliffe is also available at phrdatabase.

Hope this helps.


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## Chagall's mom

Thanks for your excellent post, *peppersb*! This is the kind of information breeders should routinely supply to those who contact and purchase from them, IMO. I think your post should be made a sticky, or perhaps you could add it to the puppy buying thread* fjm* authored so that more people could see it and learn from it. Though it's evident at times information _is _"weaponized," as the concern expressed on the part of some regarding the use of PHR infers, but information is power and posts like your empower poodle buyers. Thanks again! :thumb:


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## poodlecrazy#1

peppersb said:


> There are three web sites that you can use to search poodle pedigrees. To find a dog on any of them, it helps to have the registered name (or part of it) or the registration number.
> 
> *offa.org:* This site has health testing info. You can check the site to see what testing is recommended for each breed, and you can look up test results for individual dogs. Dogs that meet the testing requirements get a CHIC number, and that indicates that the dog is fully tested. If you see test results on this site, you can be confident that they are legit. Some breeders test their dogs and do not list the tests on this site either because they don't want to pay the fees or because they don't get around to it. If they tell you that the dog is tested but it is not listed on offa, ask to see the certificate.
> 
> *phrdatabase.com:* You need to create an account to use phrdatabase, but it is free and easy. This site has info about diseases that have been diagnosed in specific dogs. If you have a dog that is diagnosed with an inherited disease, there is a simple form that you can (and should!) send to phrdatabase to make this info public. It has to be signed by the owner and by the vet that made the diagnosis. It can be helpful to look up dogs on this site, but you need to be aware that not everyone reports their issues to phrdatabase, so there are plenty of unreported diseases. Also, it is important to be aware that there are no pedigrees that are entirely free of inherited diseases.
> 
> *poodlepedigree.com: *This site has pedigrees that go back are far as info is available. Anyone can fill in the information, and the site keeps track of who enters info. Feel free to add your own dog! Check out the bulleted options at the bottom of each pedigree for all the different ways you can display the pedigree and/or other info.
> 
> You can use any of these sites to get info on the parents and offspring of a dog. Poodlepedigree and offa will tell you the variety (standard, mini, toy) of each dog in the pedigree. I find it interesting to compare the birthdate of parents with the birthdate of offspring to see which breeders are breeding their bitches too young. Also, COI (coefficient of inbreeding) info is available on poodlepedigree and phrdatabase. Some people think that the phrdatabase calculation of COI is more accurate. %Wycliffe is also available at phrdatabase.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thank you!! This is such great information! I think I searched the offa website for Branna's mother and father as far as the pedigree went. There was nothing ( I knew there wouldn't be anything for her parents but was hoping for maybe something further down the line), I am waiting to get my account accepted for the PHR and will look it up in that. If I can I will get Killa put on it, but I am not sure if her condition is genetic or not. I am in the process of finding a Orthopedic Specialist and getting a referral to take her to one. Again thank you so much for the great information! 


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## kontiki

Pudelhund said:


> So your advice is to bare it all?





ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> YES!!! But facts only. Don't put yourself at risk of getting into trouble.
> 
> Paragon and Apres Argent are very involved in protecting the breed and outcrossing to create diversity. They are also huge proponents of PHR. and it not being used as a witch hunt but as a tool for others.


I am in shock at reading Pudelhunds story about what this breeder has done. And I find it disturbing that the breeder would be protected by not providing the name.. That will only encourage her to do the same thing or worse to more people. I believe it is important to provide the information to protect all of us from being in your position. I am not sure how long you have had your puppy, but I would probably ask for a refund of not only the purchase price, but all other costs incurred. I am so very grateful that my poodle, the first one I have had, came from someone very honest, who provided all health tests back two generations, as well as other information. 

I agree with ArreauStandardPoodle about disclosing the information. I know this is difficult for you. How very dismaying. My heart goes out to you.


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## 3dogs

I hope that it wouldn't be a witch hunt but I do think naming your breeder maybe will help others searching for a Poodle may not have to go through what you did. Not saying your breeder was bad BUT misleading for sure & possibly outright lying. Hopefully others will now be more diligent in seeking out all the info before purchasing a Poodle.

Thank you for those that told me to call OFA- I will do that next week. Great point that the info will be stored for future references.


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## Pudelhund

I would like you all to think of the position I now find myself in; other breeders have already guessed who my puppy is from...and some have gone to my breeder and informed her of this thread. I tried to keep all identifying facts out of my post ie. color, age, sex, locales, etc. such that the breeder would be difficult to identify. I have and will tell all parties that can take action in regards to what I have shared with you. However, to name the breeder is to put myself in danger of libel or slander. I have proof to back up everything I have said. I am very careful to present the facts as they have been presented to me. I understand why there is a call for me to publish the breeder....trust me, I understand. For now, I am putting the matter in bigger, more influential hands than mine.


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## Pudelhund

I really hope others learn from my mistakes; it wasn't enough to ask the questions. I should have asked for proof of the pedigree and the health testing before committing to buying my dog. Shame on me for not doing that first. Let it be known, I do not love, cherish or take care of my darling puppy any less. I will take care of whatever arises to insure my pup is happy and healthy.


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## kontiki

You are in such an awkward position. I will not be obtaining another poodle until I know who this breeder is that I do not want to go to. I do hope this is cleared up. You are to be admired for taking care of and loving what may be a very costly poodle in the long term. My best to you.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

There is an awful lot of chatter on FB right now. Other buyers putting two and two together because they also have bite issues in their pups. No disclosure to them regarding the age of the dam or the variety of the grand sire. This is becoming a mess! But until it is disclosed who the breeder is, these kinds of practices are going to continue I'm afraid. I do not know how you be be charged with slander for telling the truth.


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## schpeckie

My girls too have normal bites.
Sylvia & the Girls


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## PudelWoman

Is there a problem with toys' bites?? I never heard of this.

Glad your cute toys' bites are ok but why are so many people here putting down toy poodles? 

Aren't toys also poodles too or I'm missing something?


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## Ciscley

*Toy vs. Standard - the same, but different*

A lot of small breed dogs are predisposed to bite issues. Same way a Toy is less at risk for bloat or hip dysplasia than a Standard. It's more just an issue of what to be on guard for, not that it's a given a toy will have it or that having it means they aren't a poodle. I have a standard white poodle with liver markings, including a nose that's not solid colored. He's still a poodle but he has a "major fault" in his conformation. Those type of "cosmetic" faults most people just think of as cute though, vs ones that can have lasting physical impacts.


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## PudelWoman

Ciscley said:


> A lot of small breed dogs are predisposed to bite issues. Same way a Toy is less at risk for bloat or hip dysplasia than a Standard. It's more just an issue of what to be on guard for, not that it's a given a toy will have it or that having it means they aren't a poodle. I have a standard white poodle with liver markings, including a nose that's not solid colored. He's still a poodle but he has a "major fault" in his conformation. Those type of "cosmetic" faults most people just think of as cute though, vs ones that can have lasting physical impacts.


Whew! Someone in family was thinking of a toy poodle but not if most toy poodles have bad bites like it sounded like from these posts. 

A bad bite though is much better than hip problems or bloat if we were to choose. Heard of many of the really big poodles dying of bloat.

Do these bad bites make the toy poodles not able to eat and they starve?


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## Tiny Poodles

PudelWoman said:


> Whew! Someone in family was thinking of a toy poodle but not if most toy poodles have bad bites like it sounded like from these posts.
> 
> A bad bite though is much better than hip problems or bloat if we were to choose. Heard of many of the really big poodles dying of bloat.
> 
> Do these bad bites make the toy poodles not able to eat and they starve?


I don't think that a Toy Poodle from a reputable Show Breeder is likely to have a bad bite - I think that there is one PF member that has one that does, but I personally have never owned or met one (I have owned 6 Tpoos). 
However, being small dogs, they can sometimes have a little bit of crowding in the small front teeth, upper/lower, (one of the six that I have owned did), and their small mouths do tend to accumulate food and form plaque more easily then larger dogs, so they need regular brushing and dental cleanings. One of my old girls - even though she had a perfect bite, and no crowding, just had to have all but 5 teeth removed and no, she is not starving - in fact she still eats all the same food and has not lost an ounce!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

My feeling is, it is not the Toy portion of this dog that is causing the bite issue necessarily, but the Toy/Standard combo. Each variety will have different sized jaws which grow at different rates. Just like the mini/standards used to develop the reds created an abomination in the beginning which they had to work through (mini legs/standard bodies, among other things we still see) there can be parts of these pups that are throw back from the toys and other parts that will be standard. With the incredible size differences, this could be nightmarish. And each variety has its own health issues that are part of that variety. Now with the toys behind these pups, there is the potential for a mixed bag of issues from both varieties.


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## 3dogs

Don't feel pressured into naming your breeder. You have very valid questions & concerns about your pups breeding.

My Toys have great bites but I did have to get those baby teeth out of my show Toy since the canines really wanted to stay in. A bad bite can be caused by the owners leaving in the Baby teeth & not getting them removed in a timely manner.


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## Tiny Poodles

It is true - 5 of my 6 toys had to have puppy teeth removed - that does not happen with the bigger poodles?


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## kontiki

Tiny Poodles said:


> It is true - 5 of my 6 toys had to have puppy teeth removed - that does not happen with the bigger poodles?


I never had to do anything with my Spoo to lose his teeth, or grow the permanent ones. Both sets were perfect. Interesting to hear of having to have puppy teeth removed.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

No. Standards usually do not have crowding of teeth.


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## Carrie-e

When do spoos get all their adult teeth through? Billy is 1 on Monday and he is constantly chewing and likes to knaw on bones.


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## Tiny Poodles

I think that the majority of toy size dogs need to have some puppy teeth pulled - not just a toy thing.


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## N2Mischief

Misha had puppy teeth pulled, and her bite is beautiful! My chihuahua's are poorly bred, but both have beautiful bites. Like Tiny mentioned, I do have to have his teeth cleaned at least every 6 months and even though I have kept up on them he has had quite a few pulled. I think that is pretty common in chihuahua's.


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## Lou

[quote

[color=gray


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## PudelWoman

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> My feeling is, it is not the Toy portion of this dog that is causing the bite issue necessarily, but the Toy/Standard combo. Each variety will have different sized jaws which grow at different rates. Just like the mini/standards used to develop the reds created an abomination in the beginning which they had to work through (mini legs/standard bodies, among other things we still see) there can be parts of these pups that are throw back from the toys and other parts that will be standard. With the incredible size differences, this could be nightmarish. And each variety has its own health issues that are part of that variety. Now with the toys behind these pups, there is the potential for a mixed bag of issues from both varieties.


My aunt is looking for toy poodle and doesn't want a white or black one. She saw silver but sometimes is makes those tear stains. Red sounds pretty but from the above, it sounds that all reds will have other size parts in the pedigree so red looks risky. But confusing why that breeder above breeds reds (it looks like?) and they have "abominations" and Mini's going back in that breeder's pedigree. 

This is confusing. The dog bought is from a toy and a standard? I thought they said it was a grandparent. I could see them being upset if the breeder lied about their own dogs but it if was farther back, is the breeder responsible for knowing about ALL dogs from other breeders?

This is so confusing and my aunt doesn't want a dog that sheds but maybe not a poodle after all. But the others we can think of that don't shed are white or silver and have those tear stains.


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## cookieface

PudelWoman said:


> My aunt is looking for toy poodle and doesn't want a white or black one. She saw silver but sometimes is makes those tear stains. Red sounds pretty but from the above, it sounds that all reds will have other size parts in the pedigree so red looks risky. But confusing why that breeder above breeds reds (it looks like?) and they have "abominations" and Mini's going back in that breeder's pedigree.
> 
> This is confusing. The dog bought is from a toy and a standard? I thought they said it was a grandparent. I could see them being upset if the breeder lied about their own dogs but it if was farther back, *is the breeder responsible for knowing about ALL dogs from other breeders?*
> 
> This is so confusing and my aunt doesn't want a dog that sheds but maybe not a poodle after all. But the others we can think of that don't shed are white or silver and have those tear stains.


Someone else will be able to comment of red toys and tear staining, but I wanted to address the bolded statement. 

In my opinion, reputable breeders will have extensive knowledge of the pedigrees they breed whether for their own dogs or other dogs they use. They should have a thorough knowledge of health testing results, health issues that can't be tested for, titling, temperament, color, and, especially variety. They should know if a dog somewhere in the pedigree had a specific health issue or if the offspring of one of the ancestors were known for calm, pleasant temperaments. 

I would most certainly expect a reputable breeder to know one of the dogs in the pedigree was the result of a toy to standard breeding.


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## Pudelhund

Bites are polygenic traits meaning a puppy can inherit the fathers top jaw and the mothers bottom jaw and they just won't match up. 
In regards to my dogs pedigree, the toy-standard breeding was one generation back. Again, this is where my frustration and concerns lie. The sire carries the genes of the toy line. 
A reputable breeder is not only one who researches the pedigree of her breeding stock but also one who stands behind the puppies she produces. It's not enough to proclaim you're a good breeder, that you're health testing, educated on genetics, etc....you have to actually do it and be willing to show the information to the buyers. I know it's easier to attack the buyers, accuse them of not loving or taking care of their dogs than it is to admit there was a mistake in the breeding. 
This whole situation has proved very eye opening and has left me with a very poor view of some breeders. I am thankful I have found some good people who are open to discussion and are honest about their breeding practices. I applaud them.


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## 3dogs

Tear drains is not color related. It is more likely inherited. If purchasing a pup then look at the parents. Do they have eye stains? Many offspring will have tearing if the parents do. I believe it can be breed out but since it isn't considered a "health issue" then breeders with tear stained dogs will continue to breed them. My Poodles do not have tear stains. Louisa has none, I bred her to a stud without tear stains & neither of her parents have tear stains. I groom all 5 pups from a 2 and breeding of Louisa's parents & none of them have tear stains. I was lucky with Echo because her sire is free of staining but the dam does stain. I saw 3 of the pups at 4 months of age & 1 older dog from this pairs 1st breeding free of stains. From the 2 and litter of this pairing the female they kept has mild staining. This female was bred 1 x & the 1 pup she had is free of staining.

I think it is an issue that is easily bred out but breeders really don't care I think. I personally hate tear stains & would not buy a pup with stains nor would I breed my girls to a stud with stains. Just research & you will find plenty of pups free of stains & some breeders are proud to state that their dogs are stain free.


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## Pudelhund

And to all the owners and breeders of toys.....I did not mean to suggest toys have bad bites. It was just a question. :0)
I have since found that jaws are polygenic traits. The pedigree is most likely the cause of the underbites found in our puppies. 
I apologize if I offended anyone. All poodles of all sizes are fantastic and a joy to own. 
If you're buying a toy, please don't let this thread deter you! Poodle on!


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## Tiny Poodles

PudelWoman said:


> My aunt is looking for toy poodle and doesn't want a white or black one. She saw silver but sometimes is makes those tear stains. Red sounds pretty but from the above, it sounds that all reds will have other size parts in the pedigree so red looks risky. But confusing why that breeder above breeds reds (it looks like?) and they have "abominations" and Mini's going back in that breeder's pedigree.
> 
> This is confusing. The dog bought is from a toy and a standard? I thought they said it was a grandparent. I could see them being upset if the breeder lied about their own dogs but it if was farther back, is the breeder responsible for knowing about ALL dogs from other breeders?
> 
> This is so confusing and my aunt doesn't want a dog that sheds but maybe not a poodle after all. But the others we can think of that don't shed are white or silver and have those tear stains.


My silver toy poodle does not tear stain at all, nor does my Sister in-law's white that she got from the same breeder!
We asked to be sure that our pups were not tear strainers, and that is what we got!


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## Keithsomething

You're entirely sure that it was a toy used in this breeding? You physically saw the toy grand sire and can say without a shadow of a doubt that he was a toy? 
What's the pedigree?


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## Pudelhund

Keithsomething......
I'm going to try to word this as politely as possible;
No, I did not physically see the breeding that took place. Yes, I have physically seen the grandsire. Yes, I can say without any doubt in my mind the grandsire was/is a toy. It was verified by the breeder of the grandsire. I have it in writing. I also have it in writing how the breeding took place, namely by artificial insemination. I have copies of all the pedigrees. The breeder of the grandsire stated quite clearly that the grandsire was a toy and was bred from two toys...and carries a lineage of toys behind them both.
Was it possible the grandsire grew 1/2 an inch over the recognized size delineation s AKC uses to differentiation between toys, Minis, and standards? Yes, without a doubt. Does that negate the fact that the grandsire ONLY has toys in his pedigree. No.
What else do you want me to say? 
If any breeder thinks its okay to breed a larger toy to a standard by AI and then pass the puppies one generation later as standard puppies, go for it. 
Just have the common decency to inform your buyers. The puppies breeders sell to families are well loved family members. Buyers deserve to know what they are buying.
I fail to see why it has to be explained over and over ad nauseum. It baffles me.


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## Locket

Terrible breeding practise. I can't believe anyone would do that!

I'm so sorry Pudelhund that you were led astray. Sucky situation to be in, but it sounds like you are still enjoying your pup. Good on you.


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## Keithsomething

Pudelhund said:


> Keithsomething......
> I'm going to try to word this as politely as possible;
> No, I did not physically see the breeding that took place. Yes, I have physically seen the grandsire. Yes, I can say without any doubt in my mind the grandsire was/is a toy. It was verified by the breeder of the grandsire. I have it in writing. I also have it in writing how the breeding took place, namely by artificial insemination. I have copies of all the pedigrees. The breeder of the grandsire stated quite clearly that the grandsire was a toy and was bred from two toys...and carries a lineage of toys behind them both.
> Was it possible the grandsire grew 1/2 an inch over the recognized size delineation s AKC uses to differentiation between toys, Minis, and standards? Yes, without a doubt. Does that negate the fact that the grandsire ONLY has toys in his pedigree. No.
> What else do you want me to say?
> If any breeder thinks its okay to breed a larger toy to a standard by AI and then pass the puppies one generation later as standard puppies, go for it.
> Just have the common decency to inform your buyers. The puppies breeders sell to families are well loved family members. Buyers deserve to know what they are buying.
> I fail to see why it has to be explained over and over ad nauseum. It baffles me.


I don't think answering a question is ad nauseum...should the breeder have disclosed this information of course. But you're basing your judgment of a puppies bite before the dog is fully matured, if you'd like I can post photos of my PET bitch who's bite is atrocious and she is the result of a standard to standard breeding btw. 

I don't believe a toy should have been used and researching the pedigree should have been done...but to purchase an animal without seeing the pedigree first I view that as blissful ignorance, the buyer chose to go through with purchasing/acquiring a dog that they didnt research. Hopefully everyone has learned something from this experience. Both breeder and buyers


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## 3dogs

I am not even sure why a "breeder" would even think this is a good idea. I can understand toy to Mini, or even a tall Mini like 18" & a small Standard like 21" with equally large & small lines within both sides. I think a Toy to s Standard even AI is irresponsible to say the least. Then selling the next generations as Moyen is just plain wrong. If this information was brought up front to buyers then they can say "yea" or "neigh". In the OP this was not the case & I can empathize with the OP & the shock that came from this knoweledge.

I guess one of the best things is to post on PoodlePedigree.


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## kontiki

I still want to know who that breeder is to stay away from. It bothers me that the breeder, rather than us as owner/handlers is being protected. What a difficult situation.


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## Pudelhund

Keith , if you read through the thread you will notice I have answered this questions several times, as well as admitted my fault in the situation because I did not research the pedigree before purchasing my dog. It was not given to me and this breeder as recommended by several people. Yes, my dog's bite may change. It is quite doubtful in my opinion, the canine orthodontist's, and other poodle breeders' but as the dog is not fully grown, anything is possible. Again, my concern lies in the fact that the bite is a polygenic trait. I simply think the breeder owed me an explanation on how her small standard was conceived....because I asked the question. Am I a buyer who was blissfully ignorant? I guess that can only be answered by one's own moral compass.... 
My one mistake was not requiring the pedigree upfront to substantiate the breeder's answers to all of my questions. The breeder was willfully misleading and dishonest. I guess I am old fashioned in my belief that one should be honest in their practice. Shame on me.
I hope your PET bitch's bite corrects itself before she reaches maturity. I hope my dog's bite corrects itself too.


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## Pudelhund

How I would love to publish this breeder! Given today's sue happy society, that is simply not possible. Please learn from my mistake; after doing all your homework and asking all the questions you can think of, then have the breeder back up their claims by providing the pedigree BEFORE purchasing your dog. If something feels off....if the breeder gives excuses why they can not produce health testing results or the pedigree, run! :0)


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## patk

Keithsomething said:


> ...but to purchase an animal without seeing the pedigree first I view that as blissful ignorance, the buyer chose to go through with purchasing/acquiring a dog that they didnt research. Hopefully everyone has learned something from this experience. Both breeder and buyers


when a breeder is recommended by others and has lied about the origins of her dog, as pudelhund is saying happened, then it's a bit farfetched to lay the entire blame on the buyer. if all the burden is on the buyer, then good breeders make themselves indistinguishable from bad ones by not making it a part of the process to offer proof of pedigree without being asked on top of their personal reassurances about a dog's breeding.


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## Keithsomething

-.- I never placed the full blame on the puppy buyers :alberteinstein:

I did say the breeder should have disclosed this, but was the breeder aware that it was a toy used instead of a mini or was it portrayed to her as a mini cross? Have you attempted reconciling this with your breeder?

And while it ISN'T entirely the buyers fault, you should have done your research...with so many databases available to poodle owners and being able to discern the difference between a moyen and a mini x standard cross I would surmise you might have known of those databases?

my pet will be 3 in december her undershot bite will remain with her the rest of her life, if I were the breeder I'd spay and neuter anything related to her...especially since she isn't the only dog from the breeder I've tracked down with a bad bite and questionable temperament. She's a beautiful pet and her bad bite doesn't affect her quality of life, but its something I've consulted long time breeders and several specialists about to ensure it doesn't get worse and thats all you can do.

we all make mistakes, we all place our faith in sketchy characters at some point...but its what you do with that experience and what you do with your new knowledge that shows if you're learned from the situation or not


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## peppersb

Keithsomething said:


> -.- I never placed the full blame on the puppy buyers :alberteinstein:
> 
> I did say the breeder should have disclosed this, but was the breeder aware that it was a toy used instead of a mini or was it portrayed to her as a mini cross? Have you attempted reconciling this with your breeder?
> 
> And while it ISN'T entirely the buyers fault, you should have done your research...with so many databases available to poodle owners and being able to discern the difference between a moyen and a mini x standard cross I would surmise you might have known of those databases?


Keith, maybe I am misunderstanding you, but it sounds as if you are saying that the puppy buyer (the OP) should have known about the databases, but maybe it is OK if the breeder just relied on what she (or he) was told by another breeder: "was the breeder aware that it was a toy used instead of a mini or was it portrayed to her as a mini cross?"

This makes no sense whatsoever. Most puppy buyers are not aware of poodlepedigree.com, phrdatabase.com and offa.org. Most poodle breeders are aware of them and use them. It is outrageous that any breeder would not know the pedigree of the dogs that she/he is breeding. It seems like you are expecting a pet puppy buyer to know more than a breeder!


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## CharismaticMillie

I agree. Your average pet puppy buyer isn't researching pedigrees and scrutinizing pedigree databases or health registries. And really, they shouldnt need to be. This is a case of a lack of full discloser on the breeder's part.


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## peppersb

CharismaticMillie said:


> I agree. Your average pet puppy buyer isn't researching pedigrees and scrutinizing pedigree databases or health registries. And really, they shouldnt need to be. This is a case of a lack of full discloser on the breeder's part.


I think the issue of bad breeding practices may be even more important than the issue of full disclosure. I simply do not think that a toy should be bred to a standard. I for one would not be particularly outraged if the OP had purchased a dog with a parent that was a cross between an oversized mini and a small standard. Of course, I would be outraged even in this case, if the buyer was lied to about anything.


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## NOLA Standards

Might I point out once again that "Teacup", "Royal" and like it or not "Klein/Moyen" promotions are practices by breeders who could generally be grouped into the "Rather Sketchy" category.

Case in point..... :alberteinstein:



Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Ladyscarletthawk

When I obtained my toy poodle Eve I went about doing a lot of research at the time. I went to a show breeder, and asked about health testing papers and she produced pedigrees and photos of sire and paternal grandsire. I second guessed myself , and saw some of her dogs that immediately mobbed us. I saw the puppies and we fell in love with Eve. So I got a beautiful girl with an excellent temperament. However she has medical issues and I've spent tons of money on her. It was my fault for not standing my ground and trusting the breeder, as I really liked her and loved her dogs. All the signs were there. I don't begrudge her.. I was the one with the money, and gave it to her. At the same time I've had a wonderful companion for the last 9 & 1/2 years, that breeders have said they would breed to her just for her temperament. Of course they didn't because of her health issues lol.

Anyways there are all sorts of people out there from the angel to the scorpion. And when the scorpion stings me, I try to remember its in it's nature to do so. I had the ability of avoiding of getting stung, but hey we all make mistakes. Of course I would be mad if someone outright lied to me as opposed to avoiding the question..


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## Locket

peppersb said:


> Keith, maybe I am misunderstanding you, but it sounds as if you are saying that the puppy buyer (the OP) should have known about the databases, but maybe it is OK if the breeder just relied on what she (or he) was told by another breeder: "was the breeder aware that it was a toy used instead of a mini or was it portrayed to her as a mini cross?"


That is how I understood it as well.

Does not compute.


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## Pudelhund

NOLA Standards,
Yes, you are right those words are all words designed to attract buyers to seek the hottest new thing. Yep. I know this. Again, I asked the proper questions about the breeding of the dogs and their pedigree. I brought up my concerns regarding pedigrees and health issues that arise when breeders take short cuts to produce the hottest trend. I specifically asked if her sire was born of a small standard to a small standard. The breeder told me yes. The breeder LIED. The end. Nothing more to say. The breeder of my dog is a LIAR. The breeder has lied about so many more things that I haven't even addressed here. Why it is acceptable to ream the buyer when taken advantage of by an unscrupulous breeder is beyond me. Every time a breeder takes advantage of their customers and breeds dogs with out regard to the health of the poodle line is a reflection on ALL BREEDERS. It's not a fair statement but a true one. 

I'm checking out of this thread. Thank you to all the people who understand my frustration regarding this situation. It comforting to know there are breeders and other poodle owners who still understand the word integrity. 

:0)


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## Pudelhund

*Poodle Dynasty's Zuni Pedigree*

I wanted to update this thread. 

This is my poodle's sire, Zuni and his lineage. Please note the toy to standard breeding. thank you.

PHR Pedigree Database


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Well, that certainly helps explain the bite issues in his litter.


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## kontiki

Pudelhund said:


> I wanted to update this thread.
> 
> This is my poodle's sire, Zuni and his lineage. Please note the toy to standard breeding. thank you.PHR Pedigree Database


Hmm - I must not be good at reading these. Please tell me how to find the standard.Is it on this page that is linked? Or do I have to go to a different link?
Thanks


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## Pudelhund

*Polygenetics*

while this article is very watered down, it provides the reader a good understanding of why breeding two different sizes together is not a wise idea. It also explains why my poodle has a wry (crooked) jaw coupled with a severe under bite. My poodle was seen by a specialist in veterinary dentistry and had 5 teeth pulled. There was no hope for braces, nor shaving the teeth down and as the teeth were cutting into his soft palate(s), gums and lips, the only option was to pull. My boys mouth is still not 'right' and will require another visit to the dentist.

The vet, who does extensive work on zoo animals around the world, was shocked at the state of my dog's mouth. He further explained how this occurs through genetics and confirmed what I have been saying along. He actually laughed out loud when I showed him the pedigree. 


badbite


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## Pudelhund

Dreamweaver Contact Us

Wildwoods Rainbow of Zanmar is pictured on this page. She's a white standard.


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## Viking Queen

I just read this thread and am horrified that a standard would be bred to a toy. I also looked at the page showing Rainbow at her breeder/owner's facility and this woman says they are doing a repeat breeding of Rainbow with a red mini!

She clearly states that Rainbow is a standard and that the puppies of the standatrd/mini breeding should be "mid size standards."

Not good breeeding practices, I would say.

Standard Puppies

Thank you for updating this thread, Pudelhund. I hope that your puppy is maturing into a lovely companion for you and am very sorry the breeder was untruthful with you and that your pup is dealing with health issues as a result of the breeding being irresponsible by pairing a toy with a standard.

A valuable lesson for us all

Viking Queen


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## Carolinek

Thank you for updating this. I just read through the whole thread and it was very informative. The link to the article on the genetics underlying malocclusions was enlightening. A bit scary for the consumer- definitely buyer beware. When I'm ready to add a poodle to my family, I just hope I will have enough knowledge to sort through the misinformation and misrepresentation that seems to be all too common.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

When the red Standards were being developed it is said that the breeders brought a red mini to an apricot Standard. The result was incredible colour with bodies that were an abomination- Standard sized bodies on mini length legs. And periodically one will see a red litter posted that look like throwbacks to those days. So if the problem can still persist all these years and many generations later, bringing a mini into a red breeding could make for some hideous looking puppies. To have a Toy in the mix is just asking for trouble in my opinion. If a very responsible breeder carefully bred an oversize mini to a petite standard, it could go one of two ways. But to have a number of Toys behind a Standard is ludicrous. Again, that is just my opinion.


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## 3dogs

Thank you for the update. Was there any resolve with you & this "breeder". Did you post the facts on RipOff Report? Just having the facts posted in public hopefully will change this breeders practices & they become a better breeder.


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## spotsonofbun

I thought the registries were closed how could they get a toyxstandard registered?


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## Poodlerunner

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> If this is who I think it is I would be just as upset that the mother was about seven months old when bred. Can you respond to my pm when you get a moment to satisfy my curiosity? And if the answer to my question is affirmative, please be in touch with Paragon and/or Apres Argent who will help you find info and report any issues in the future.


I didn't know they went into heat that young! It is so very sad to breed such a young girl. 

pr


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## Poodlerunner

If someone bred a toy to a spoo, I would like to know who did it and why (I'm a very curious person). I would also like to see pictures of the dogs. If the breeder did it, she knew there was going to be some controversy surrounding it and should be willing to stand up to her belief that it was a good thing to do. You would not be doing anything wrong by letting us investigate. It is the breeder who needs to explain her radical decision to do this breeding. By all means she has the right to do it and she should be willing to stand behind it.

pr


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## Lou

...

I wonder if breeders doing this could encourage not just other breeders but also regular illiterate pet-owners that still believe "they need to get a puppy from their current dog" and they say: "just 1 litter and we'll spay her" And go on to breed their female toy to a standard poodle ????!!?!!! Would the tiny female implode? ? aargh I'm not at all educated in this matter so I can't possibly have any opinion on this, bit it sounds absurd to breed a large dog to a tiny one no matter how I look at it...


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## fjm

I think the smaller dog is usually the stud, Lou - which usually means AI but reduces the risk to the mother. The risk of weird differential growth in the pups remains, of course. It seems a daft thing to do to me - why not breed small standard to large miniature, if you want to speed up the establishment of the size and are not fussed about registering the pups in a closed registry?


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## Lou

fjm said:


> I think the smaller dog is usually the stud, Lou - which usually means AI but reduces the risk to the mother. The risk of weird differential growth in the pups remains, of course. It seems a daft thing to do to me - why not breed small standard to large miniature, if you want to speed up the establishment of the size and are not fussed about registering the pups in a closed registry?



I know that the less absurd thing would be to have the female standard and toy male, and that breeders ( I hope!) should also know that. Even standardXstandard , having so much variation in size, I would imagine they always have the male be the smaller one ... 
But reading this thread made me think of clueless pet owners, like the guy I saw dragging a "Almost 6weeks old" pitbull puppy on a leash through Petsmart.... (Ya know what I mean?) 
It just makes me cringe to think someone clueless like that guy could breed a toy female to a standard male because they heard something about breeders mixing toys and standards....


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## 3dogs

Somebody asked about Toy x Standard Registration. Part of your statement is true that the stud book is closed. What you don't understand is that a Poodle is a Poodle is a Poodle. These are Size variations not different breeds. Just like the Daschund has 3 size & 3 coat variations & you can mix * match because they are all Daschunds. 

So yes you can register the breeder would just have to guess at what size, since the Standard Poodle is anything over 15" then the guess would pretty much be Standard Poodle.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Poodlerunner said:


> I didn't know they went into heat that young! It is so very sad to breed such a young girl.
> 
> pr


Every girl and every line is different. I have heard of them coming into season at five months or at seventeen months for the first time. The norm is nine to twelve months, but they are all different. Just as cycles are different. Some girls come in every four months, some once a year, while the norm is twice per year.


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## fjm

3dogs said:


> Somebody asked about Toy x Standard Registration. Part of your statement is true that the stud book is closed. What you don't understand is that a Poodle is a Poodle is a Poodle. These are Size variations not different breeds. Just like the Daschund has 3 size & 3 coat variations & you can mix * match because they are all Daschunds.
> 
> So yes you can register the breeder would just have to guess at what size, since the Standard Poodle is anything over 15" then the guess would pretty much be Standard Poodle.


That wouldn't work in the UK - here the pups can only be registered in the category of the parents, and crossing sizes would mean unregistered puppies. There are, in effect, three different registers for the three sizes of poodles.


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## spotsonofbun

Thats probably why i was confused I was thinking of the KC rules. But this is so silly, the risk being taken here its completely arbitrary. They dont have to develop a new size of poodles even mixing small spoos and large mpoos, its already established in Europe just import FCI dwarf poodles.


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## Poodlerunner

liljaker said:


> I may be the odd one out here, but I would think that the 3 varieties of poodle should comfortably satisfy everyone. As I mentioned before, people looking for small standard poodles should just check with breeders as I have friends who have small(er) female spoos that are all healthy, tested spoos, just on the smaller size in the scale.
> 
> My Jake was a very oversize mini, and I think the sire was from Europe, which may account for it. He was a great size, but was still a mini.


I think the problem is that people are having a hard time finding a smaller spoo. 30 pounds is pretty small for a spoo and if what is being posted here is any indication, they are easy to find. Also, the fact that there are breeders trying to develop it, is telling. I don't know enough about how this variety was developed in Europe (but it is _so_ interesting).

I have done some reading on what makes dogs small and there is a genetic factor found in all dogs under 30 pounds. So the minis and toys have it but not the spoos! 

My info is limited reading I've done not the internet so anyone who can 'splain it all would be a hero. 

pr


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## Poodlerunner

spotsonofbun said:


> just import FCI dwarf poodles.


Would the importation of these poodles help with genetic diversity? 

pr


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## Poodlerunner

Pudelhund said:


> I specifically inquired on how the smaller Moyen was developed in the breeders program. I was told small standard to small standard. I was very careful to ask that question as I knew breeders were taking shortcuts to create this now popular size.
> In regards to health testing, I was told that extensive health testing was done on each parent of my dog. I never received the proof.
> I take responsibility for failing to gather proof of health testing. However, the breeder lied to me. I made it perfectly clear what I was looking for...a small standard resulting from breeding of the same.
> The pedigree came to me late due to a skirmish between the breeder and the co breeder.
> While the underbite is undesirable, as long as it doesn't affect my pups health, it's ok. I know a good scissor bite can go off.
> I am most concerned about his health in the future. I worry about his hips and joints due to the breeding of a toy to a standard one generation back.
> I don't believe I have any recourse other than reporting my pups health issues to the Poodle Health Registry.
> I wanted to share my story and see others opinions. I fully believe that while a buyer has a responsibility to ask the right questions, it is also the breeders responsibility to disclose information truthfully. I feel o was lied to purposefully.
> The breeders website advertises the pups and the sire as small standards. It was in conversation that the breeder used the word Moyen.


Girl!!! You specifically asked how her Moyen size was developed. That a toy was used at all, should have been disclosed. *I would feel so lied to*. I think you deserve a good explanation as to why this breeding was done. If the breeder felt like it was the right thing to do, let her 'splain it to you. You also deserve an apology for being flat out lied to. JMO, of course. 

I have no idea if your pups dentition was caused by this breeding. There could be bad bites in the pedigrees. What were the qualities of the toy and the standards used? Champions? ... or obscure dogs nobody heard of? It could have nothing to do with the toy being used. 

Anyway,_ I_ would demand that up to the purchase price, that she be financially responsible for any future skeletal dysplasia the dog might develop. I would feel this was fair because I was not given the opportunity to knowingly take that risk (because of the breeders lying). 

Obviously, I can _demand_ anything I want but to get it, is a whole other story. I would have to decide in my heart how much of it was my fault how vehemently I would push. 

Good luck with your baby.

pr


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