# Vaccinations - Yes or No?



## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

Hi Laura! There are a few things to consider when doing your research.
There is the risk to benefit ratio. What is the prevalence of IMHA suspected to be from vaccinations? versus the prevalence of contracting one of the other possibly lethal diseases if not vaccinated? Remember, IMHA is a rare condition and there are different factors that may cause this immune response. I don’t have hard numbers here. I would take an educated guess and say the chance of contracting distemper, adenovirus, parvovirus, or rabies is much more likely than the chance of developing IMHA. Different regions of the country have different rates but overall the risk is still there. Generally distemper, adenovirus, parvovirus and leptospirosis are in one combination vaccine.

another thing to consider is if you will be attending dog training classes, using a professional groomer, dog daycare or play days, etc. These business will require you to have these basic vaccines.

Breeders will start off a puppy’s first and possibly second round of vaccines before you take them home. I don’t know if there are reputable breeders who do not vaccinate their puppies?

personally, I want the insurance for my dog going on walks in the neighborhood or playing in the park and not coming across another infected animal, feces, or contaminated soil. I also don’t want to spread illness to other dogs. I gave my dog the basic vaccines I listed above, as well as the oral bordatella vaccine. I will do Lyme disease once it gets out of the dead of winter because I live in an area where ticks are prevalent in the warm weather and Lyme disease is fairly common.

Obviously I’m pro vaccination. It will be interesting to hear other pet parents weigh in on this. One of the best things you can do is ask the vet when you take your puppy for their initial visit about the chances of infection vs the risk of vaccines and decide if you want to hold off or not.

Good luck with your new puppy, and thumbs up for doing your research and asking questions! Poodles are such wonderful dogs.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Porkchop I'm with you. The analogy is the recent occurrence of measles where a loss of herd immunity resulted in several significant and nongeographically contiguous outbreaks including in American Samoa (or it might have been Guam) there were fatalities in children. Later in life I think titering for immunity is okay, but not so much in young dogs.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Here's the thing: vaccines definitely prevent diseases, that are definitely serious or fatal; but have a slight chance of causing IMHA (and this is not really a medically accepted theory).
Working in the veterinary field I have seen lots of dogs die of Parco and many more incur large medical bills and potential long term side effects; I have seen several dogs die of Lepto and several seriously sick from it. I have only seen a handful of cases of IMHA (and at least one of those was treated and recovered well).
To me, those numbers say vaccines are worth it.
Certainly, I am in favor of titres when possible (not for rabies of course) and assessing individual risk.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

It sounds like you're into some research. If you don't know it already, you maybe should know the name, Dr. Jean Dodds. 
She is writing the book on canine vaccinations as we speak.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Yes. In my area parvo kills dogs on a regular basis. 

I'm not sure what I will do about lepto. It is a "lifestyle" vaccination. As in, if you are a family that camps and hikes (we do) your dog should probably get this vaccination. However, it is the one vaccination my breeder (who does not camp or hike with her dogs) said to never give to Violet. Decisions, decisions...


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Newport said:


> Yes. In my area parvo kills dogs on a regular basis.
> 
> I'm not sure what I will do about lepto. It is a "lifestyle" vaccination. As in, if you are a family that camps and hikes (we do) your dog should probably get this vaccination. However, it is the one vaccination my breeder (who does not camp or hike with her dogs) said to never give to Violet. Decisions, decisions...


I used to think that hiking/camping/ country roaming was the only real risks, but at least half of the Lepto cases I have seen in the past two years were small, suburban dogs. A Yorkie for one. My guess is that these dogs spent a lot of time in their yards, and also had neighborhood raccoons etc and we're exposed that way. Ironically now that I live in the country I see virtually no wildlife on my property, whereas in the city we did all the time.
My poodle's breeder gave the first Lepto so I did get the booster, I will rethink again next year.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Starvt, it is interesting to have your input since you see so many dogs through your work. Have any insight into Lepto vaccine reactions? Never see it? See it all the time? Severity?


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I am pro vaccine. As with anything in life there can be reactions but not vaccinating in my mind is selfish . I have had my own dogs for over 40 years. Every dog I owned has been regularly vaccinated with all recommended vaccines by the vets in the areas I lived. Most every dog I have own lived to be in their mid teens and died of old age, my two shih tau lived to 14 & 17 and my rottie's lived to 11 or 12. My GSD lived only to 8 and he died of stomach cancer, he had stomach problems from day 1 when I purchased him and he had coccidia. Right now my cairn is 8, our boxer is 5, poodle is just 2 and our chihuahua turned 18 last Oct.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Newport said:


> Starvt, it is interesting to have your input since you see so many dogs through your work. Have any insight into Lepto vaccine reactions? Never see it? See it all the time? Severity?


I would say that Lepto and Lyme vaccines are the most likely to cause reactions, but typically they are milder forms with lethargy, soreness, vomiting and diarrhea. 
I don't do Lyme at all, even though Lyme disease is a risk in my area using a tick prevention has a much better efficacy rate and also protects against other tick borne diseases. 
My preference is to pre-treat with Benadryl before giving the Lepto vaccines with a second dose after. This should prevent most reactions, and maybe it would help head off some of the possible repercussions of the body being put into an inflammatory state. 
Obviously, like Mufar said, so many other things can cause an inflammatory response as well so it might not make much of a difference. 
And some dogs just seem prone to reactions and inflammation, while other dogs never react to anything. That's one of the reasons I find it hard to believe vaccines specifically could be considered a cause of these immune-related diseases.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

My Gracie went her whole life without visibly reacting to any vaccinations, and then at 10 - WHAM!! She got hit hard by the rabies vaccine. It was awful to watch. Vomiting, confusion, two trips back to the vet before they administered what I believe was a steroid shot.... All her vaccinations until then had been in Canada, but we were in Wisonsin at the time, in the process of moving to our current home in the Pacific Northwest.

One of the first things we did here was get her set up with a new vet, and after hearing about her reaction, the vet said NO more vaccines. Not at her age, with her history.

All this to say: I'm grateful to everyone who does vaccinate their pets, so my dear old Gracie could go unvaccinated for her last few years without any major risks.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

For what it’s worth, I used to give my dogs their vaccines that I bought and then administered. I did a lot of research on different written articles and papers on the subject of vaccinating dogs. These were all written by veterinarians. 

Some vets recommended them yearly, like it’s always been. But I kept coming across different opinions. They ranged from doing the puppy vaccinations in full, and then every three years after that, unless needed for boarding, travel etc. And the most extreme was that after the puppy vaccines were all completed, they were vaccinated for life. Of course rabies had to be done yearly, ( now every three years), as required by law. 

A holistic vet I saw does not do vaccines except on puppies. IF vaccines are need for things mentioned earlier, she will do (half) the dose of full vaccines. That is what I had settled on before I saw her and am comfortable with that. 

I’m sorry I can’t provide links, I just didn’t save any as this was a long time ago and was just for personal knowledge. There were so many that said “once vaccinated, vaccinated for life” I couldn’t ignore it. 

But I do think vaccines should be given for various reasons. If you fly a lot with your dog, do it. If it’s a heavily outdoor dog then also. And for many other reasons people have listed here. 

In my case my dogs are almost totally indoors and don’t go to pet stores, the woods, on planes, etc. 

I think you need to weigh your lifestyle, maybe do extensive research yourself and decide what makes the most sense for your and your dog’s lifestyle.


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## Jbean (Feb 18, 2019)

I vaccinate my dogs on the recommended schedule. I wouldn't dream of skipping such a safe preventative measure. I keep all of my own vaccines up to date as well.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I’m for thoughtful vaccinations for the same reasons as above. You can titer most to see if you need to revaccinate but I believe the law regarding rabies requires vaccinations according to schedule.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

Skylar said:


> I’m for thoughtful vaccinations for the same reasons as above. You can titer most to see if you need to revaccinate but I believe the law regarding rabies requires vaccinations according to schedule.


Here you don’t have to have any vaccinations to get the rabies. It’s been our choice (for my 59 years). I don’t know of anywhere that it’s different among the people I know.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

jojogal001 said:


> Here you don’t have to have any vaccinations to get the rabies. It’s been our choice (for my 59 years). I don’t know of anywhere that it’s different among the people I know.


I train and compete with my dog in several different dog clubs and all require certain vaccinations be up date. I also get the pneumonia and Bordetella because we interact with a large number of dogs which travel to other states for competition. I might make different choices for a dog who stayed close to home and only interacted with a small number of neighborhood dogs.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

Of course the dog clubs require vaccinations. They don’t know your lifestyle habits and it’s just safer. I’m saying our state and counties around me don’t require vaccines to get the rabies shot. Never have.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The OP hasn't been back since posting but jic,

I'm pretty sure the only legally required vaccine is Rabies in the US and I think also in Canada (please correct me if needed).

That said there are Core Vaccines (Rabies is one of those) which most vets will, with good reason, want to give your pup. These include Distemper, Parvo and others.

The next level is called Non-Core Vaccines. These are sometimes called Lifestyle Vaccines. These include Lyme, Leptospirosis and others. Sometimes, due to geographic movement of the means of transmission, or change in lifestyle, these may shift to Core status.

(Naturally, I'll add some links lol.)

Research is showing that many/most of these vaccines remain effective beyond the old 1 year legal re-vaccination requirement (after the original and booster series), and many places will now accept a 3 year Rabies vac because of that.

Titering to check antibody levels is gaining ground in place of simply re-vaccinating yearly (or a longer interval) for non-Rabies vaccines but there is still discussion, not about validity in itself, but testing guidelines.


Core/Non-Core






Vaccination recommendations for general practice


Canine vaccination recommendations for general practice.




www.aaha.org













Vaccination Guidelines for Dogs and Cats


Vaccination Guidelines for Dogs and Cats How we can help Call 530-752-1393 to schedule an appointment with the Internal Medicine Service. Visit the Internal Medicine Service website Introduction The UC Davis veterinary hospital vaccination guidelines below have been based on...




www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu





Titering



Dog and Cat Vaccines and Titers


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Starvt said:


> Lepto and Lyme vaccines are the most likely to cause reactions


My boys both had bad reactions to the Lyme vac. Literally screamed as each was being injected (the tech was in tears over it), and both just hid under the furniture and shook for the rest of the night. No other physical effects, but I'm also not going to do that again. Like Starvt, I'm going to depend on prevention.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Skylar said:


> I’m for thoughtful vaccinations for the same reasons as above. You can titer most to see if you need to revaccinate but I believe *the law regarding rabies requires vaccinations according to schedule.*


Absolutely, there is no reason a dog should not be vaccinated for rabies, if that dog ever contracted the virus and was to bite someone it would be terrible. I am not a "sue" person however if ever I was bit by a dog that was unvaccinated for rabies I would . I've had a dog react to vaccine one time, in fact it was my 18 1/2 year old chihuahua , now most times as I have forgotten, we pre medicate him before his vaccinations, just in case. But he hasn't had another reaction.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Rose n Poos, yes in Canada also Rabies is legally required. Some use the 3-year rabies vaccine, others are 2 or even 1 year.
The same for the other core vaccines, depending on the clinic will repeat them every 1,2, or 3 years. The non-core are yearly across the board.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

jojogal001 said:


> Of course the dog clubs require vaccinations. They don’t know your lifestyle habits and it’s just safer. I’m saying our state and counties around me don’t require vaccines to get the rabies shot. Never have.


Do you mean that the _other_ vaccines aren't required in order to get the rabies vaccine? If so, yes, the only legally required vaccine across North America is the rabies. A vet might pressure you into the other ones at the same time but can't force them.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

Starvt said:


> Do you mean that the _other_ vaccines aren't required in order to get the rabies vaccine? If so, yes, the only legally required vaccine across North America is the rabies. A vet might pressure you into the other ones at the same time but can't force them.


Thank you Starvt, I guess I wasn’t concise enough about what I was trying to say, but you cleared it up.


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> Porkchop I'm with you. The analogy is the recent occurrence of measles where a loss of herd immunity resulted in several significant and nongeographically contiguous outbreaks including in American Samoa (or it might have been Guam) there were fatalities in children. Later in life I think titering for immunity is okay, but not so much in young dogs.


Thank you so much for your important message. We are friends with a young couple whose 5 month old baby had a cancerous tumor removed, that was 1/6 of his body weight. Due to his treatments, he could not receive his scheduled immunizations. I was absolutely choked with rage on behalf of this tragic little family because during the baby's long hospital stay, a pile of idiotic Anti Vaxxer parents flooded the wards with their kids who had contracted Measles during a wholly preventable outbreak. This little baby lost a kidney and was enduring the agony of chemotherapy - and then his life was needlessly endangered by a preventable disease like Measles brought into the hospital wards by irresponsible morons . In his weakened state, he would have died had he caught Measles. Honestly, I have sympathy for any parent whose fragile baby is needlessly threatened who would like to see those Anti Vaxxer parents and their plague children turned away from the medical establishment they had previously scorned.

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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

Porkchop said:


> Hi Laura! There are a few things to consider when doing your research.
> There is the risk to benefit ratio. What is the prevalence of IMHA suspected to be from vaccinations? versus the prevalence of contracting one of the other possibly lethal diseases if not vaccinated? Remember, IMHA is a rare condition and there are different factors that may cause this immune response. I don’t have hard numbers here. I would take an educated guess and say the chance of contracting distemper, adenovirus, parvovirus, or rabies is much more likely than the chance of developing IMHA. Different regions of the country have different rates but overall the risk is still there. Generally distemper, adenovirus, parvovirus and leptospirosis are in one combination vaccine.
> 
> another thing to consider is if you will be attending dog training classes, using a professional groomer, dog daycare or play days, etc. These business will require you to have these basic vaccines.
> ...


Thanks for the great facts. Well stated. I will add one more point. In addition to being rightfully barred from all responsible groomers and dog daycares, the presence of an unvaccinated dog in your vehicle will result in all being turned back at any border crossing. We carry up to date vaccination certification every time we cross - and the guards do check.

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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

PeggyTheParti said:


> My Gracie went her whole life without visibly reacting to any vaccinations, and then at 10 - WHAM!! She got hit hard by the rabies vaccine. It was awful to watch. Vomiting, confusion, two trips back to the vet before they administered what I believe was a steroid shot.... All her vaccinations until then had been in Canada, but we were in Wisonsin at the time, in the process of moving to our current home in the Pacific Northwest.
> 
> One of the first things we did here was get her set up with a new vet, and after hearing about her reaction, the vet said NO more vaccines. Not at her age, with her history.
> 
> All this to say: I'm grateful to everyone who does vaccinate their pets, so my dear old Gracie could go unvaccinated for her last few years without any major risks.


Yes. And THAT rare exception is why Herd Immunity is so critical!

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## Artsifrtsy (Oct 22, 2019)

I’m on the board of a rural animal shelter. Every summer I see the effects of the failure to vaccinate. It’s so devastating to our staff to do everything we can and to watch puppies die when a simple series of shots would have prevented disease. Distemper lives in the soil for a decade. Parvo is incredibly contagious and is brutal to watch. I typically add a set of boosters to the puppy series in my own pets in case I am exposed while volunteering at the shelter. Should you choose not to vaccinate you will need to make sure your pet never visits a dog park, a neighbor’s yard, a pet store or anyplace where adult dogs are common.

Now there is one area where I think you can be more lax. I have had vets tell me that a dog that has been regularly vaccinated past the age of 7-8 should only need rabies shots going forward. They should have full immunity by that time. I would rely on my Vet’s advice on this though.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I second the recommendation for Dr. Jean Dodds vaccination protocol. Dr. Jean Dodds – Dog Vaccine Protocol « Animal Health Foundation Blog
And then following up after a year with titers and Rabies as required by law.


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## Jbean (Feb 18, 2019)

> Recently, I read about this horrible, horrible disease called IMHA. It seems that people believe that it is directly related to pet vaccinations.


This is a needless concern. No death certificate is issued when a dog dies. It would be _impossible_ to determine what percentage of unvaccinated dogs developed IMHA. Most dogs who receive no vaccines also receive no veterinary care. A dog who is not vaccinated and who develops IMHA is very likely to die undiagnosed.



> I second the recommendation for Dr. Jean Dodds vaccination protocol. Dr. Jean Dodds


Dr. Dodds has been extremely effective in promoting her opinions, but they are still simply _opinions_ and unsupported by science. Evidence Update: Dodds Study on Vaccine Dose in Small Breed Dogs |


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I follow the WSAVA Vaccination Guidelines - evidence based, respected by vets, and sensible. In essence it requires a full puppy course for core vaccines, with a booster at 12 months in case of any residual maternal antibodies, etc. Then three-yearly for core vaccines, and as required by the dog's life style and environment for non-core. These diseases are too dangerous to risk because of unproven anecdotal correlation with rare disorders, which, as Jbean says, may have other explanations even if they are statistically valid. Vaccinated dogs live longer and receive better health care - they are therefore likely to predominate in all disease statistics compiled by vets.

Anecdote is not data - it is a bit like the proverbial friend's grandfather who smoked 40 cigarettes a day and was healthy till he died in an accident at the age of 99, which used to be offered as "proof" that it was not true that smoking damages your health!


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## Kit and Capoodle (Dec 31, 2019)

HI @Iciano, I think you have received wise counsel here from people regarding the general safety of vaccinations. Unfortunately, *disease is a reality of this world—it is in nature, so no amount of “being natural” is going to prevent it. *

As a mother who attempts to do the holistic route when possible, I do totally understand where you are coming from with wanting the best for your little pup. I have studied the possible autoimmune effects of vaccinations, but the truth is that there is no conclusive scientific consensus that it is the vaccinations that are causing an increase in autoimmunity. As with all issues of health, the picture is more complex than a singular causal variable; it is a synthesis of factors that are almost too impossibly complex to disentangle.

Elite collegiate institutions worldwide are attempting to with limited success and conflicting results due to the complexity of the natural world. The increase in autoimmunity likely has also to do with the toxins of industrialization and nutritional deficiencies in the food supply chain, which we can only mitigate in our own living environments, not eliminate. It is also important to note that autoimmunity itself is not new; it has been around since human beings have been around. Modern times have not caused it, but it is more common now. My vet recommended against tither testing due to recent research in the veterinary community which investigated a link between vaccines and autoimmunity and found no conclusive evidence suggesting an increase in disease from following the vaccination protocol. Thus my vet said this higher risk schedule puts puppies at risk.

As for the *Jane Dodd ideas.* I talked to a breeder who used to follow the *Jane Dodd Vaccination Protocol*, and this person confided in me that they had* lost an entire litter of puppies* to parvovirus due to following this protocol. So traumatizing. This is despite living out in the country, where less contact with large animal populations is the norm and people may have romantic notions that disease is less likely to flourish. *Disease is everywhere. *

I also worked at a large volume human society where Parvo was a huge problem and *killed whole litters of puppies.* The cleaning and separation protocols for managing this disease were scrupulous, but even so, the virus sometimes spread to other uninfected litters of puppies. It’s very serious. Another risk of not getting the Leptospirosis virus is that *Lyme’s disease itself can cause autoimmune problems* that the dog previously did not have. There is no perfect solution to the reality of disease in the world. Vaccinations are the best control we have over epidemiological disease.

*And for Rabies, absolutely vaccinate.* *This is very grave.* A dog can carry rabies without the disease manifesting for a greatly variable period—between 10 days to a year. *Rabies is 100% fatal to human beings* if the proper prophylaxis is not administered in time. And *"catching it in time" is* *not an acceptable risk for anyone to impose on another person. *The onset window for the virus in children is faster since the disease has less distance to travel to the brain.

*Please* at least vaccinate for rabies, whatever else you decide. A dog's optimal health is not more important than the public being protected. To mitigate issues with autoimmunity, give your puppy omega-3 fatty acids like cod liver oil at an appropriate dosage around the time that you vaccinate, and have your puppy on a high quality probiotic supplement (Nusentia Probiotic Miracle Premium Blend is a good one) to help him build a resilient microbiome which will help his immune system stay stable and help his digestion. You can also supplement his food with homemade bone broth to help build tight epithelial junctures which should protect against immune dysfunction as well.


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## Kit and Capoodle (Dec 31, 2019)

P.S. With rabies -- If your dog ever bites someone, the protocol is to quarantine them for 10-14 days meeting only their basic life needs. In the nightmare where your unvaccinated dog actually turns out to have rabies, then you have to *track down every single person* that the dog came in contact with to *warn them* and these poor people then *have to receive rabies shots *which can be extremely expensive. Not to mention, what if you can't find every person the dog came in contact with, which is the most likely scenario if you bring your dog into public?

And rabies doesn't always start off as "my dog is foaming at the mouth and being violent." It can start off as lethargy and poor appetite and be hard to identify as rabies at first... but they can still transmit it at that time through saliva. I know of a little boy who had to receive the rabies shots after playing with a kitten that was later determined to have rabies, though it had no symptoms at the time. This *really happens.*

I don't mean to be a negative Nancy here, I believe the Poodle forum should be a positive place. But I feel it's my obligation to post this information in the interest of public safety. I do hope you have a wonderful time shopping for your puppy Iciano. It is an exciting time. Your puppy will be fine if you vaccinate. Try not to worry! Like with vaccines, prudent precautions are the best we can do in a world where our control is limited.


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

Kit and Capoodle said:


> P.S. With rabies -- If your dog ever bites someone, the protocol is to quarantine them for 10-14 days meeting only their basic life needs. In the nightmare where your unvaccinated dog actually turns out to have rabies, then you have to *track down every single person* that the dog came in contact with to *warn them* and these poor people then *have to receive rabies shots *which can be extremely expensive. Not to mention, what if you can't find every person the dog came in contact with, which is the most likely scenario if you bring your dog into public?
> 
> And rabies doesn't always start off as "my dog is foaming at the mouth and being violent." It can start off as lethargy and poor appetite and be hard to identify as rabies at first... but they can still transmit it at that time through saliva. I know of a little boy who had to receive the rabies shots after playing with a kitten that was later determined to have rabies, though it had no symptoms at the time. This *really happens.*
> 
> I don't mean to be a negative Nancy here, I believe the Poodle forum should be a positive place. But I feel it's my obligation to post this information in the interest of public safety. I do hope you have a wonderful time shopping for your puppy Iciano. It is an exciting time. Your puppy will be fine if you vaccinate. Try not to worry! Like with vaccines, prudent precautions are the best we can do in a world where our control is limited.


Great facts. Also, humans can have adverse reactions to the rabies shots too. How is that fair to the unsuspecting people whose only crime was to visit a public space and come into contact with some irresponsible owner's dog? If those people cannot be found, they will die within 10 to 50 days should the virus remain undetected and reach the spinal column. Rabies, if untreated, is FATAL.

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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

Kit and Capoodle said:


> HI @Iciano, I think you have received wise counsel here from people regarding the general safety of vaccinations. Unfortunately, *disease is a reality of this world—it is in nature, so no amount of “being natural” is going to prevent it. *
> 
> As a mother who attempts to do the holistic route when possible, I do totally understand where you are coming from with wanting the best for your little pup. I have studied the possible autoimmune effects of vaccinations, but the truth is that there is no conclusive scientific consensus that it is the vaccinations that are causing an increase in autoimmunity. As with all issues of health, the picture is more complex than a singular causal variable; it is a synthesis of factors that are almost too impossibly complex to disentangle.
> 
> ...


Thank you, thank you. Excellent science. I used to live in an area with huge skunk populations , big rabies carriers. I would capture the wild barn cats and have them vaccinated just because they posed a significant risk to both horses (who also got vaccinated )and humans coming to the stables.

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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Rabies vaccines are so important ! Yes to there still being Rabies in wild animals, which our own animals can get and then pass around to each other and us.. I had a friend bitten by a dog in when he was traveling in Thailand. There were so many homeless dogs running around. There was no way to tell if the dog had been immunized, they weren't even sure which one it was. So he had to go through a miserable round of Rabies treatment.


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> The OP hasn't been back since posting but jic,
> 
> I'm pretty sure the only legally required vaccine is Rabies in the US and I think also in Canada (please correct me if needed).
> 
> ...


Thanks so much. I'm still here, just been busy but I am reading all of your responses and appreciate your help and advice. Since my mini passed almost 4 years ago now, I have to catch up on the latest information out there, so thanks for the links too!


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## LoveMyRedToyPoodle (Sep 15, 2019)

I had the typical puppy vaccines done for my toy poodle (parvo, rabies). My vet also recommended the Lepto vaccine because she said she's seen a few dogs in the past few years get sick from Lepto, and they were all small dogs (mostly yorkies). I'm a big believer in the importance of vaccines, especially for children, so I went ahead and had my toy poodle get the first Lepto shot and it was horrible; he didn't move for at least 12 hours. I would pick him up to take him outside on the grass to potty, and he would fall into the grass, couldn't even stand up. I was so upset, I thought I had just killed my dog! After that, my vet still wanted to give him the second Lepto shot in the series, and I said no way. 
Also wanted to note that my toy poodle's breeder had told me not to give either the Lyme or Lepto vaccines but I decided to go ahead anyway due to the vet's strong support of the Lepto vaccine. 

On another note, for very small dogs like toy poodles, it's best to separate the shots, i.e. no more than one vaccine at a time. Every vaccine vial dose is the same size, whether it's for a 3 pound toy poodle puppy or a 100 pound Great Dane!! It's not done by the weight of the dog, one size supposedly fits all. That was shocking to me!


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Unfortunately, none of us can guarantee that our dogs will never come into contact with dangerous viruses/bacterias.


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## bluegirl1997 (Aug 10, 2019)

Even where we live in the rural wilderness our vet tells us diseases like parvo are everywhere now. People can't decide their dog will only ever be on their farm so doesn't need vaccs...except for heartworm, that hasn't reached our northern area yet. Rabies and deworming are critical here because of what wildlife may be carrying. They still have to kill your dog here to confirm rabies, if there was any question (maybe your dog just jumped around and someone jumped to the conclusion their child'd been bitten? Could happen). Plus if you want your dog to take obedience lessons or go to a groomer, the poodles need full vaccs. There doesn't seem to be a down side to vaccinating, to me.

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## Zesti_V (Aug 7, 2019)

Another pro vote here- vaccinate!!


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I remember having adverse reactions to vaccinations as a kid, so I expect my pets to have some reaction. Miracle had to get all of her shots in the spring, and I chose to do them the same day. She was very lethargic afterwards, but some of that could have been due to the stress of the vet visit. By the next morning, though, she was herself again. Other than the time Jasper vomited as a puppy after having a vaccine, he's been fine as well. My dogs have been lucky in his regard. 

I can very much understand, though, that if a dog reacts negatively to a vaccine why it would be important to proceed with caution. I have never given the Lyme vaccination to my dogs, but I will definitely consider it for the summer months if I going to take them for walks in wooded areas.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

lciano said:


> Recently, I read about this horrible, horrible disease called IMHA. It seems that people believe that it is directly related to pet vaccinations.


I think the issue with immune system concerns is that poodles have been inbred. In spoos certain gene types linked to wonky immune systems have been concentrated in the breed. (Check out the poodle diversity project information from UC Davis for more info.) Failing to vaccinate won't fix the underlying genetic problems. It just gets you a dog that's susceptible to communicable diseases as well as autoimmune diseases.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I live in the far north, in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and will be traveling to Las Cruses, New Mexico which is near the border, in a couple of weeks. I imaging they have stuff down south that we don't have. Is there anything I should prepare him for down south?


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

If your dog has been vaccinated and has a flea preventative, you should be fine in NM.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Ah, no flea protection. Will do. Thanks
I called a doggie day care down there and they said Rabies Cert, Distemper Parvo, Bordatella Vac.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Are heartworms an issue everywhere or just here in the south?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Dianaleez said:


> Are heartworms an issue everywhere or just here in the south?


We get them up north. They are transmitted by mosquito, so they spread pretty readily. At one point my vet was even seeing them in cats.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Our cats have always taken Revolution for Cats which includes heartworms.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'd run across this info some months back showing how the territory of insects is changing and how that might require a change in immunizations and preventatives. 
I copied the article with my ad blocker off, but the article is still available online. 









Regional Diseases Spreading to New Areas


I've bolded some parts. Just because it hasn't been in your area no longer means it can't be now. Link for the article below. I had to turn off my adblocker to see it...




www.poodleforum.com


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Dianaleez said:


> Are heartworms an issue everywhere or just here in the south?


I'm in Ontario and I see a few cases every year. The difference is just that we don't have it year round, because the mosquitos die off for the winter.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Rose n Poos said:


> I'd run across this info some months back showing how the territory of insects is changing and how that might require a change in immunizations and preventatives.
> I copied the article with my ad blocker off, but the article is still available online.
> 
> 
> ...



Yet another consequence of climate change. Climate change is real folks!


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## bbdaisy (Feb 12, 2020)

Hi, does your pet insurance include vaccinations? or do you know such insurance? I`ve found some info about various insurances on Petinsurancefinder already, but I want to get more, so share your experience, please.


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

LoveMyRedToyPoodle said:


> I had the typical puppy vaccines done for my toy poodle (parvo, rabies). My vet also recommended the Lepto vaccine because she said she's seen a few dogs in the past few years get sick from Lepto, and they were all small dogs (mostly yorkies). I'm a big believer in the importance of vaccines, especially for children, so I went ahead and had my toy poodle get the first Lepto shot and it was horrible; he didn't move for at least 12 hours. I would pick him up to take him outside on the grass to potty, and he would fall into the grass, couldn't even stand up. I was so upset, I thought I had just killed my dog! After that, my vet still wanted to give him the second Lepto shot in the series, and I said no way.
> Also wanted to note that my toy poodle's breeder had told me not to give either the Lyme or Lepto vaccines but I decided to go ahead anyway due to the vet's strong support of the Lepto vaccine.
> 
> On another note, for very small dogs like toy poodles, it's best to separate the shots, i.e. no more than one vaccine at a time. Every vaccine vial dose is the same size, whether it's for a 3 pound toy poodle puppy or a 100 pound Great Dane!! It's not done by the weight of the dog, one size supposedly fits all. That was shocking to me!


Thanks for the information. I hope your pup is okay!


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## susan Davis (Jan 28, 2020)

Here in Illinois, rabies is the only vaccine that is required by law. One year or three year/s are available. My 3.5# chihuahua gets only the rabies vaccines. She had a terrible reaction to the combo vaccine. She is a house dog, however, so doesn't go out. The titers are considered I believe.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

My Spoo also had a reaction to the combo vaccine. And my vet said they are not available separately. Does anyone know if it is possible to get them separately so that the vaccines can be spread apart time wise?

We do titers also after the original vaccines . Strangely they are more expensive though.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

When traveling to other countries I discovered some do not accept the 3 year rabies, and require your dog to have another rabies shot even if you just had one 13 months ago.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

LoveMyRedToyPoodle said:


> My vet also recommended the Lepto vaccine because she said she's seen a few dogs in the past few years get sick from Lepto, and they were all small dogs (mostly yorkies). I'm a big believer in the importance of vaccines, especially for children,
> 
> ... so I went ahead and had my toy poodle get the first Lepto shot and it was horrible; he didn't move for at least 12 hours. I would pick him up to take him outside on the grass to potty, and he would fall into the grass, couldn't even stand up. I was so upset, I thought I had just killed my dog!
> 
> ...


I would change vets!


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

kontiki said:


> My Spoo also had a reaction to the combo vaccine. And my vet said they are not available separately. Does anyone know if it is possible to get them separately so that the vaccines can be spread apart time wise?
> 
> We do titers also after the original vaccines . Strangely they are more expensive though.


Lepto comes on it's own, as does Parvo. But Distemper only comes with Adenovirus and Parvo (at minimum, can have additional ones as well). A lot of ***** and coyotes carry distemper so it's usually recommended.
Has your vet discussed pretreating with an antihistamine? That's what I would do.


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## LoveMyRedToyPoodle (Sep 15, 2019)

kontiki said:


> I would change vets!


Liciano, thank you, my pup is 11 months old now and he's very healthy, thank God. I should have followed the breeder's advice and not given my toy the lepto vaccine, but instead I went with the vet's strong advice to have it done. I definitely won't be doing that again! My little guy didn't have any reactions to the parvo, distemper or rabies, which is great. 

Kontiki, I go to a vet hospital with about 10 different veterinarians, and yes, I'm switching to another vet in the practice. The other thing I didn't like was that when I asked them to separate out the shots for my toy puppy (who was 3 pounds at the time), this vet charged me a check up visit fee for each separate shot! So, it ended up costing me a fortune to get all his puppy vaccinations done because I wanted only one shot at each visit, and for each visit they charged me both a check up fee and the vaccination fee (even though the only reason I was in every 4 weeks was because I was separating out the shots!) Ugh. I know they have to make money, but that just seemed so wrong.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Starvt said:


> Has your vet discussed pretreating with an antihistamine? That's what I would do.


Interesting, that had never occurred to me. Do you mean an antihistamine so he doesn't react as much to the shot?


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

kontiki said:


> Interesting, that had never occurred to me. Do you mean an antihistamine so he doesn't react as much to the shot?


Yes exactly.
The treatment for a vaccine reaction, depending on severity, is an injection of diphenhydramine, with the potential addition of a steroid (dexamethasone) injection, and possible recommendation of oral diphenhydramine (Benadryl) every 8-12 hours.
We always recommend for the owners to give one or two doses (every 12 hours) leading up to the next time that vaccine is given. A note is added to the file, so we can ask if the diphen has been given. If the owner forgot (or can't) we will give the injectable form and then wait 15 min before vaccinating. Another (oral) dose can be given at home in 8-12 hours but it's rarely necessary.
Of course it's important to weigh pros and cons of each vaccine for each individual pet, but for important vaccines I can't think of any time that the pre-treating regimen has not worked.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Oh my, all these big words. Even using them worries me. 

Sorry, but my Spoo reacts badly to chemicals, even cleaning chemicals, deicer used on the outside of a plane we are in, additives in commercial dog food kibble, etc. He gets bad seizures from the spot on tick prevention. Somehow, this recommendation did not make me feel better. As I need to travel though I will bring this up with his vet.

I am curious, are you a vet? You seem to have quite a knowledge of technical terminology


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

kontiki said:


> Oh my, all these big words. Even using them worries me.
> 
> Sorry, but my Spoo reacts badly to chemicals, even cleaning chemicals, deicer used on the outside of a plane we are in, additives in commercial dog food kibble, etc. He gets bad seizures from the spot on tick prevention. Somehow, this recommendation did not make me feel better. As I need to travel though I will bring this up with his vet.
> 
> I am curious, are you a vet? You seem to have quite a knowledge of technical terminology


Not a vet, but a vet tech/vet nurse, for 17 years now ?, and have always worked in very busy practices. I like to know the explanations for everything I do, and having worked with many vets over the years I have heard a variety of viewpoints.
I often use the chemical names or technical terms for things, because the common names I am familiar with might be different from country to country or area.
Keep in mind, that many innocuous substances have a chemical name, but that doesn't put them in the same category of things you think of a "chemicals". If I started talking about hydrogen dioxide, that would sound like a chemical you want to avoid with your boy- but it's just the chemical name for water ?. It might be more accurate or useful to think of your spoo as being very sensitive.
So, to clarify: a steroid is only given to a pet that is experiencing a significant reaction. I like to avoid steroids where possible, but they are so useful to break the cycle of inflammation when necessary. I doubt that your dog would need this.
An antihistamine (commonly Benadryl) blocks the body from reacting to a foreign substance (in this case the vaccine). Giving it beforehand means that you prevent the reaction from happening in the first place, rather than responding after the reaction has already started. Think of it as a calming blanket over your dog's overactive immune system ?.
For your dog, it would certainly be particularly important that just the antihistamine is given, no extra additives. Given his history, you may realize on discussing with your vet that he has been given something along these lines in the past. If so, it would be comforting to know that it is safe for him (as it normally is).


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Starvt, thank you! I feel so much better after your last explanation. I think you said to just give him Benadryl before his next immunization. Is that correct?


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

That's right kontiki! A dose of Benadryl an hour or two before the appointment.
You could give a second dose after the vaccine, 12 hrs from the first dose, if you think he needs it.
Might make him a little sleepy (just like us) but less stress at the vet is nice anyway!


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

Starvt said:


> Rose n Poos, yes in Canada also Rabies is legally required.


That's actually not true, it is only required in certain Provinces/cities, not all of Canada. After the first year booster I do not personally agree with "scheduled" vaccines unless a titer proves that it is required, or there are other reasons, such as some of the reasons that have been posted previously. 

This topic was discussed by myself and others in a past thread on this topic. 

A Little Immunity is Enough...

Cheers


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