# no neuter contract



## daabor (Jan 31, 2019)

Of course I am going to neuter Sammy. I am not sure when is best, but think around 6 months of age? I don't want to push it too far, due to possible issues with Jett.

Anyway, I'm writing this because, even tho I love Sammy and think he was bred to be everything a poodle should be, his breeder happily told me he was being adopted by me, without a neuter contract. She said I could breed him and have all purebred pups akc registered or make a lot more $ breeding small designer dogs ( not her exact words).

I am going to have Sammy neutered, when healthy for him. I'm just worried that a breeder like this isn't the most reputable. Sammy seems wonderful! He does yelp a little when putting pressure on his left leg, but I think that's cause son plays too rough.

The breeder is a sweet lady. Think a;; is well?


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Well, I think your breeder is nice but probably not the most ethical and caring about the breed.

As for neutering, six months is really young. He won’t benefit hormones for very long and you’ll end up with a tall, lanky dog looking more like a slim female than a male. It is also usually suggested to wait until the growth plates are closed and growing is complete, usually around 18 months.

Your dogs will need constant watching none the less. Having two males who don’t get along is not a breeze.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

No, Sammy's breeder does not qualify as a 'reputable' breeder but only as person who owns dogs of the opposite sex and bred them.....you 'may' or 'may not' have a sound pup! That is why buying a pup from a 'reputable' breeder who DNA/OFA health tests stacks the odds of getting a pup without congenital problems in your favor.
My Molly is from an OOPS! litter and I lucked out that she has remained healthy so far, but many people are not that lucky and end up spending $$$$$$ on Vet bills !
Especially have Sammy's knees & legs checked for luxating patellas (it is really common in toy poodles) your Vet can do this in a puppy well check exam.
I would NOT have him neutered before his growth plates have closed,(12-18 months old) as those extra hormones he gets by waiting for them to close will benefit his bones...especially those fragile leg bones on a toy poodle! Broken legs in a toy poodle are said to happen in the first year quite commonly, so please be careful with him playing roughly with your son. Good Luck and Happy Puppyhood!


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I neutered Jasper (my maltese/poodle mix) at 6 months and it was a mistake. This was 8 years ago, and I wasn't aware of the recommendation to wait. I would go with the recommendations you read here. I did not get Jasper from a reputable breeder, and he has luxating patella issues in both knees. The vet was able to tell me this right away, so it would be good idea to get Sammy checked. If he has this issue, you will need to monitor him so that he isn't jumping on/off of furniture. Also, if he continues to yelp when pressure is put on his back leg, please have a vet check it out.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Although Gracie is from a reputable breeder, she is my first dog that does not come from dubious beginnings. I have lucked out with health with all of them other than minor things, but not always with temperament. I love them all, past and present, including their quirks, but the soundness of Gracie’s temperament is a real treat now.

It truly is a crap shoot with health, but as mentioned, going the reputable breeder route stacks the deck. Get him checked by the vet, treat/ manage anything that crops up, and then just love him where he is. He sure looks like a cutie!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with everyone else. Nice lady, not the best breeder though. I personally am not so keen on neutering males since I don't see the same health benefits in desexing males as for females where unless breeding I think there are health protections gained by spaying.


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## Nromley (Jan 5, 2019)

Dechi said:


> Well, I think your breeder is nice but probably not the most ethical and caring about the breed.


Yes. No reputable poodle breeder would ever sell you a dog on anything but a limited registration without a lot of discussion, and probably a lot more money. And, they would never tell you to breed a poodle to another breed. 

There has been such a difference between the dogs I've gotten from a good breeder, both in health and temperament, then the two I got from backyard breeders many years ago, before I knew the difference.

All that matters is that you are happy with your puppy though.


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

I agree with Catherine - I would not hesitate to spay a female (after about 1 1/2 years of age - at least 2 cycles) but I do not neuter males - needless to say that the NEVER get a chance to breed (and no they do not roam the streets in search of females..). I was curious about your statement that two unfixed males would obviously not get along, which is completely untrue. In my experience with fixed and unfixed dogs it is almost always the fixed males that pick on unfixed ones - so the mix of the two may be unwise. Two un-neutured males generally are very chill with each other. Two unfixed females - generally - can be more pushy with each other..


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

I usually have two males, have never had any problems. I don't neuter until 2yo, my dogs have always gotten along both before and after.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi, 

My boys come from a similar background, so I can relate to your experiences there. 

Regarding neutering, latest studies are indicating health benefits to keeping males intact, but atm, I don't remember the actual statistics, nor the specific benefits. I think chances of some things increased, and others decreased. I had the conversation with our vet before deciding and I believe the study referred to was on Golden (or maybe Labrador) Retrievers. Most likely the results would be representative of dogs in general. 

All that being said, we chose to neuter our boys not long after they turned one year, with growth basically ended by then. We take them to public places, travel with them, and will sometimes have to board them when we travel. These reasons and a few others made neutering the best option for us. 

A link re neutering:

https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/t...ns-spay-neuter-effects-the-health-of-our-dogs

I actually don't remember if you ever mentioned whether Jett is neutered. I have also heard that with two males in a home, they should both be intact or both be neutered. I'll have to revisit that info too. I think I've only found anecdotal info in the past, not actual studies but I'm still looking.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I remember reading something about that too. A quick search turns up this study, but there’s also something about interactions between altered and non altered dogs. 

It’s interesting, I’m not sure when I’m going to spay Gracie, or if.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

That is a really fascinating study showing an in crease in aggression after neutering. Definitely different than what I had been told here in the states. Good thing these studies include Europe as well.

Thinking back on it though, when my spoo pup was attacked twice before being neutered I remember the vet saying that most of the 'bites' that come in were from neutered dogs attacking intact ones.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

kontiki said:


> That is a really fascinating study showing an in crease in aggression after neutering. Definitely different than what I had been told here in the states. Good thing these studies include Europe as well.
> 
> Thinking back on it though, when my spoo pup was attacked twice before being neutered I remember the vet saying that most of the 'bites' that come in were from neutered dogs attacking intact ones.


I did a lot of research on this maybe a year ago. The studies that look at behavioral effects differentiate fear based aggression and dominance aggression. Neutering will decrease aggression that is associated with higher testosterone, such as competitive aggression between males, but it will increase aggression associated with lack of confidence, such as fear based aggression. Neutered dogs may view intact dogs as threatening.

I feel that for me personally, the decision to neuter would be based on the individual dog. I would love to have no reason to consider neutering, but I know that some dogs have testosterone-induced behavioral issues that cause a decrease in their quality of life. So with my puppy I will wait and see. If there is no reason to neuter, I will probably go with a vasectomy for peace of mind. I do believe in waiting for maturity before desexing though.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

A vasectomy is not a desexing and I rather doubt there is much of a reason to do it early or to wait.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> A vasectomy is not a desexing and I rather doubt there is much of a reason to do it early or to wait.


Sorry, that's what I meant but perhaps it was confusing. I would not neuter until after maturity. But a vasectomy could be done earlier if desired.


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## daabor (Jan 31, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> I did a lot of research on this maybe a year ago. The studies that look at behavioral effects differentiate fear based aggression and dominance aggression. Neutering will decrease aggression that is associated with higher testosterone, such as competitive aggression between males, but it will increase aggression associated with lack of confidence, such as fear based aggression. Neutered dogs may view intact dogs as threatening.
> 
> ( this is my 1st time trying to quote anything). Wow! This makes a lot of sense! Jett is neutered and was a happy- go-lucky puppy, until about a few months after neutering! I thought it was just that he got older. I do think( know) his reaction to strange/other dogs is fear based. He does resource guard in the home.
> 
> ...


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## daabor (Jan 31, 2019)

Sammy was given the clear on leg/knee problems ( so far, by vet - I did not have x-ray done, just manual exam ). 

His parents were tested and were negative, so breeder told me there was no need to have puppies checked. He is no longer letting out a yelp when I manipulate that area and I'm thinking he just hates to be groomed! Which he does! Grooming WAS going so well, but now, he hates it. I have to keep his mouth "busy" while I brush him, is that normal? Will a groomer do that?

Anyway, he is doing great. It's a challenge to keep him from jumping. He seems to love aerial acrobatics! Even when we roll the ball, he finds a way to get air born before retrieving it.

Cute thing, when my son was tired of playing fetch, after 1 1/2 hours, Sammy got the ball, dropped it and used his mouth to open my son's ( then fisted hand) so he could place the ball back into son's hand! Smart puppy!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Wow, that is a smart puppy! I have one of those throwing stick thingies and my spoo tries to stick the ball in the ball holder


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

At the moment, things are much better. the two are drinking from the same water bowl together ( at the same time)


So call me old fashioned but this is one thing I NEVER allow in my house - with usually two male dogs unfixed residing together as best buds. Why? Because I personally interpret this as a bit pushy from the pup's end. If the older dog tries to correct the younger for this, chances are he will get in trouble and I find that unfair. I feel that the older dog always gets fed first and gets to drink first while the younger dog has to wait its turn. I have seen loving attentive dog moms teach this to their young pups quite aggressively like it is an important lesson to learn. In my house a dog can choose to let a younger dog have his food or drink by walking away but everybody who is younger has to wait their turn if the older one is at the water bowl - there are several in the house - nobody will die of thirst here. I never make dogs share food bowls - I also do not mess with their food while they eat (I find that rude and not a teaching behavior at all rather some macho Cesar Milan type bull-crap!) I do at infrequent intervals add high value stuff to their bowl while they eat so as to bullet proof against accidental stuff - including touching any part of their body lightly while eating (truly not towards annoyance but more to proof against incidental knocking into..by children for instance).


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## mashaphan (Sep 4, 2014)

As I have said before,I have never neutered a male..why,I cannot say for sure,esp with the mpoo when I was 11 years old. We just didn't. (The whippets were being shown,so they could not be neutered. ) If there is no health or behavioral reason,why risk surgery? 

Che and Otter will drink from the bucket together ,if Che can get past Otter's huge head:aetsch:. Our dogs were always fed separately. I also read somewhere that adult wolves will not take food from pups,which I found interesting. Hence,I do not disturb the boys when they are dining anymore than I would allow them to disrupt MY meals.

One thing that disturbed me..and still is eating at me a bit,is my groomer was overheard to say "WHEN is she going to neuter him,so he isn't so jacked up!!" Now,she is not a poodle groomer per se,really just pets,but I have explained previously that Otter would not be neutered..ever..and HE IS A TWO YR OLD BOY..LIFE "jacks him up" :cheers2sorry,not relevant,I just had to finally vent:alberteinstein

Martha


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

Because I foster rescues I have had several dogs come in and out of my home, male and female, neutered and not. My permanent dog was an intact border collie (passed away last year at 16 1/2). The only problems I ever had were with neutered males (one was pit bull type always wanting to attack, the other too big for his britches). I am sure neutering is a real issue with some breeds, but not others. 

My intact standard poodle also always got along with other dogs. He was raised in a house with other adult dogs until I got him at one year. I think that kind of early socialization works wonders. Poodles in general get along with everyone, especially someone they live with all their lives. It is one reason I am looking for a poodle for my new permanent dog.


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## daabor (Jan 31, 2019)

Thank you all for the information. I wrote and tried to post a longer reply. All is going well here. I will try to wait as long as possible before neutering. Jett is neutered and I think the neutering negatively impacted his ability to socialize well with other dogs. 

I have also read that if there are two males in the house, both need to have the same neuter status...will see.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Michigan Gal said:


> Poodles in general get along with everyone, especially someone they live with all their lives. It is one reason I am looking for a poodle for my new permanent dog.


I had to chuckle about this. I had a groomer that owned 3 standard poodles. They barked hysterically at my poodle when I brought him to be groomed, chased him and tried to intimidate him. However he just ignored them. 

So there are definitely poodles who do not get along with everyone.

After about a year I had had enough of their behavior and we now go somewhere that has pleasant dogs. I actually wonder if it might have been the personality of the groomer ????


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

kontiki...maybe so...I love Renns groomer she has been so good with him even when he wasn't. lol she says he is now good. When I pick him up he is overly excited and her dog a smaller beagle type started to come out toward him I said oooooh you best get that dog, because Renn isn't usually happy about other dogs that he doesn't live with, she says oh no worries they are together all the time. Ope he was fine and really was more interested in going home than to even pay attention. So I think part of Renns excitement toward other dogs is me..my anxiety toward unknown.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Mufar42 said:


> So I think part of Renns excitement toward other dogs is me..my anxiety toward unknown.


Interesting observation! And it could very well be. Are you expecting your dog to react when you see another dog? They can pick up so easily on all of our emotions.

My sister has that problem. Her animals are always reactive and I have observed over the years how she starts getting reactive herself before her dog does, and even her cat. 

It may not be obvious to someone who doesn't know her because it is subtle, but at 73 I have known her for years and she actually puts her body in a slightly different position, does something mintut but odd with her hands, holds her breath tighter and gets a certain changed look on her face. If I can see this I am sure her animals can.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Yes I wouldn't be surprised. I always am afraid of my dog hurting someone else smaller dog or me falling and I do think that is part of my problem. I am going to work on me some. Otherwise he is doing very well.


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## mary2e (Jan 29, 2018)

I neutered my toy at 14 months. He immediately stopped marking, and started leaving me alone at night so I could sleep. He had taken to licking my leg from bottom to top before grooming himself and then falling asleep.

He hasn't licked my leg since  

I did not have a neuter clause in the purchase contract, but did get a limited AKC registration, which I actually never registered. Is it necessary?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Even if I did not show my dogs I would register. You can get some benefits related to finding a lost dog and it helps the AKC and us to understand trends in popular breeds and such, but only if there are registrations.


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