# wolves and dogs critical socializaion windows. interesting.



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Interesting information on their respective sensory development. I've not seen that comparison before. 

But I'd have to think thru the implications. 'Coz IMO, even given the proper socialization at the appropriate time for each species(?), Wolves would retain their 'wild streak' more so than Dogs.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Absolutely fascinating stuff! This is really struck me:

_At the gene level, she adds, "the difference may not be in the gene itself, but in when the gene is turned on. The data help to explain why, if you want to socialize a dog with a human or a horse, all you need is 90 minutes to introduce them between the ages of four and eight weeks. After that, a dog will not be afraid of humans or whatever else you introduced. Of course, to build a real relationship takes more time. But with a wolf pup, achieving even close to the same fear reduction requires 24-hour contact starting before age three weeks, and even then you won't get the same attachment or lack of fear."_


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I almost forgot about this thread. Woops. Country boy, I agree with you. I have no doubt that there's a lot more to it than that early critical period. There's thousands of years of domestication with dogs and a convergent evolution with humans. There is a multitude of behaviors of a social nature that dogs have that wolves don't...that no other animal has. Dogs are phenomenal and unique and it's interesting to explore the many facets of their development and one-of-a-kind relationship with humans.

Chagall'smom...yes, I find that fascinating too...all of it. Besides formal and informal studies of animal behavior, I've taken a great interest for the last 12 years or so in canine (various canine species) evolution and how humans and canines may have developed...some of the possible driving forces. There are some cool theories abounding and interesting research, studies etc. I found Ray and Lorna Coppingers book very detailed and compelling.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Belyaev was the guy, eh? 

Loved all his work, and the critiques of it, and any new information coming from that farm. And occasionally, like your link, new studies from elsewhere. I read them avidly. 

'Not that simple' is a good summation of almost any aspect of human/dog socialization. Sooo many factors involved. But, considering the amazing results from a few generations of Foxes... u can't beat a relationship going back to the dawn of time. It's got to be a huge factor.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Countryboy said:


> *Belyaev was the guy, eh? *
> 
> Loved all his work, and the critiques of it, and any new information coming from that farm. And occasionally, like your link, new studies from elsewhere. I read them avidly.
> 
> 'Not that simple' is a good summation of almost any aspect of human/dog socialization. Sooo many factors involved. But, considering the amazing results from a few generations of Foxes... u can't beat a relationship going back to the dawn of time. It's got to be a huge factor.


Yes. And I read (don't know where now) from the scientists who found that brain hormones such as nor epinephrine, serotonin, dopamine and so forth increase along with docility and these cause morphological changes such as drop ears, curly tails, white in the fur, smaller jaws and skulls etc. The onset and off set of adult hood in species is regulated by these hormones and that influences all kinds of things, including how the predatory motor patterns of different breeds work. For instance, in Border Collies, the sequence of predatory patterns cut off before the "bite and kill" pattern. Our domestic dogs are neotenic versions of wolves, that is, they are, as adults like wolf pups. That is directly related to how their predatory patterns operate. We are neotenic versions of apes. We retain more child like traits as adults...play more etc, than adult apes. Interestingly, dogs and humans are the only animals that are neotenic versions of another animal. We both share that unique phenomenon of that kind of counter part. 

The book, Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & Evolution
by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger is fascinating and they think this may have been what happened with a branch of wolves which were brave enough to eat in the proximity of humans...that over time, these may have evolved into the early, domestic proto dogs. They found very uniform looking dogs on the island of Pemba, off the coast of Africa where they were isolated and no domestic dogs had been imported yet to be able to mix with any wild dogs. These dogs only varied in fur color. Well, they believe these may be one of types of proto dogs, ancestors of modern domestic dogs. Anyhow, there's more to the story. But it is a theory which has a lot of validity but also some possible holes in it. They did an enormous amount of research and travel. So our dogs probably evolved from a common ancestor of the wolf, not directly....probably several domestication events took place.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I guess ya, the 'dogs descended from wolves' thing is now being debunked. As much as necessary anyway. 

Didn't they find the possibility lately of a separate branch of 'dogs' in China? Fossils only I think, but of a branch that lived and died out, completely unconnected (insofar as we know) to familiaris. or lupus. So it's not surprising that more like this would come to light. 

I say insofar as we know, 'cos it's not been long since the first Farm Fox experiments. We're still wildly swinging at that pinata in the dark when it comes to knowing all about the history of Canines.

Neotenic... thanx.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

There are several theories about that. One is that while they weren't directly descended from wolves, they're pretty sure that after a few domestication events, they were. However some theories suggest that they may have come from some other kinds of wild dogs. I wish I had time to find this one thing I read...was also very interesting. I wonder if anyone will ever know for sure. Because they have nearly identical dna, that makes a lot of scientists assume they came from wolves. But it could be that they've simply interbred for a long time, but after the fact.


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