# Black puppy from Cream parents?



## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

I am also interested to know the answer to this question as it was my understanding that 2 white/cream/apricot/red parents could only produce white/cream/apricot/red puppies because it is a recessive color. Does she have another intact male who could have gotten to her bitch? Could she have a dual sire litter without knowing it?


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## Bluemoon (Dec 30, 2015)

Isn't black considered a dominant gene? Perhaps a throw back to a previous generation.

My girl had a cafe' mom and a apricot dad. All her siblings from her litter and previous one, were black with either white abstract markings or phantom markings.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Hopefully I am not misleading you, lol! OK so white is actually very different genetically from cream or Apricot. Cream and Apricot are expressed via ee and suppress Black or Brown but are recessive. My best guess is that one of the parents is actually a true white and maybe Ee and the other is ee (cream or Apricot)?????? Hopefully a more informed person can either confirm our correct this  .


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Lol I am so confused now! Coldbrew, Peppersb, and the rest of the genetic geniuses where are you?? Hahaha!


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## 13thmaiden (Sep 22, 2017)

Good question! And no, I got to see all her dogs (since CKC registered I wanted to make sure I wasn't getting a BYB or Puppymill pup) and she only has one intact male on the premises, the father, who is a very light cream from what she told me (the mother was the apricot). The breeder said she was as confused as we were at how they got a black puppy when to her knowledge (granted only went back to grandparents) there were no black or brown poodles in the pool, just whites, creams, and another apricot. And they're house dogs kept in a well fenced in backyard, I didn't see any other dogs except a pitbull female of the neighbors next door.

Suuuuper duper confused with my Milkman puppy!!

(also, Bluemoon yours looks so much like my little fluffball! -squee-! I love seeing everyone's poodles in these posts!)


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

That milkman has some 'splainin to do!! Two white/cream/red/apricot parents can NOT produce a black puppy, although they can produce a brown one. A cream and a brown parent can produce black puppies. 

This chart explains it as well as anything: 

https://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color-b.html


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Verve said:


> That milkman has some 'splainin to do!! Two white/cream/red/apricot parents can NOT produce a black puppy, although they can produce a brown one. A cream and a brown parent can produce black puppies.
> 
> This chart explains it as well as anything:
> 
> https://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color-b.html


I agree that the milkman must be behind this! As Verve says, two white/cream/red/apricot parents can NOT produce a black puppy. But two white/cream/red/apricot parents can not produce a brown one either. Take a closer look at the chart. In the 9 boxes that are found where rows V, VI and VII cross columns V, VI and VII, the boxes all say "All Cream." The chart uses the word "cream" to refer to white/cream/red/apricot. A white/cream/red/apricot dog bred to a white/cream/red/apricot dog will always produce all white/cream/red/apricot puppies.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

That is what I thought Verve! OP is it possible that one of the parents of this litter was a silver beige without you (and somehow the breeder) knowing it? Was the pigment on both mom and dad black or did one or both have liver pigment? Liver pigment does not always mean a brown dog, but a brown dog will ALWAYS have liver pigment. 

Heritage hills it is interesting that you have heard that white is genetically different than cream/apricot/red as I have always heard the opposite. I feel that it may have something to do with the fading genes which would not be as obvious as they are in Browns and blacks fading to cafe, sb, blue or silver. That is just my theory. My puppy is cream colored right now but will mature a white.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

HeritageHills said:


> Hopefully I am not misleading you, lol! OK so white is actually very different genetically from cream or Apricot. Cream and Apricot are expressed via ee and suppress Black or Brown but are recessive. My best guess is that one of the parents is actually a true white and maybe Ee and the other is ee (cream or Apricot)?????? Hopefully a more informed person can either confirm our correct this  .


White, cream, apricot and red poodles are all genetically ee. See the link that Verve provided above. It says:

If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a black nose, possible genotypes are: BBee, Bbee.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a brown nose, your dog's genotype is bbee.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

peppersb said:


> But two white/cream/red/apricot parents can not produce a brown one either. Take a closer look at the chart. In the 9 boxes that are found where rows V, VI and VII cross columns V, VI and VII, the boxes all say "All Cream." The chart uses the word "cream" to refer to white/cream/red/apricot. A white/cream/red/apricot dog bred to a white/cream/red/apricot dog will always produce all white/cream/red/apricot puppies.


You are correct! And this is why I stick to blacks, LOLOL. And that's before you get into all that agouti stuff. That's when my head really starts to hurt.


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## 13thmaiden (Sep 22, 2017)

Thanks for all the feedback! Lemme think. I remember the father had dark colored nose, while the mother had a light colored one (it almost looked the color of her ears), the other puppies had the light colored brown nose like their mom, though the elder sibling from another litter had a black nose like the father. 

Arg, I should have taken pictures of the parents!

Maybe the father was a very very light silver beige then? The mother definitely was an apricot from the pictures I've seen of apricots, but the siblings like I said were kinda light buttermilky colored. Maybe there's a light brown gene floating in there??

I swear, Beaux, how did you do this? Even the breeder said that was her first black puppy (granted she said she'd only had about 2 litters before this one.) all others had been creams or apricots.

Verve, from the chart you gave me, the only possibility I can think is maybe bbEeIX with a BbeeVI so maybe the father was the bbEeIX? Gaaaah....so confusing. I'm going back to milkman theory!!


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

13thmaiden said:


> I swear, Beaux, how did you do this? Even the breeder said that was her first black puppy (granted she said she'd only had about 2 litters before this one.) all others had been creams or apricots.


Nothing to do,with the subject but I've been wondering since I saw your dog's name.

Why did you put an " x " at the end of his name ? Do you pronounce it ? 

In french, " beau " mean " beautiful " and putting an " x " at the end means plural. Are you saying he's like having 2 dogs, lol ?


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## 13thmaiden (Sep 22, 2017)

:lol: Actually I just added the x for fun. I guess we could say he's doubly beautiful?

We mostly just pronounce it as 'Bo' though half the time he gets called 'Bo-bo', Booboo, or 'Beauregard' (Civil War history joke for that one) on occasion for fun.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

both cream and apricot are recessive red dogs, so they are "ee".
two "ee" dogs can never produce a black dog, as a black dog is either Ee or EE. 
there is a very very very small possibility of recessive black, but much more likely is the "milkman" i.e. a different sire than the one you were shown 

apricots can have liver pigment, but that does not affect the chances of them having a black puppy - it's still impossible.

a silver beige x an ee red COULD produce a black puppy, but there's a huge difference between a dog that starts off dark brown and fades and a yellow puppy from birth. a breeder should know the difference.

a solid white poodle is absolutely ee red.

they are genetically the exact same as red and apricot, but have as-yet-unidentified genes that affect the intensity of the "red". High intensity reds are irish setter red, low intensity are samoyed white, and there's an infinite spectrum between them.

theoretically, a parti poodle with an excessive amount of white could look totally white (picture a bull terrier, which are extreme piebald) while actually being any color 'beneath' the white. however, as far as i know there aren't any piebalds that extreme in the gene pool, since the standard in all kennel clubs discourages against them.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

HeritageHills said:


> white is actually very different genetically from cream or Apricot.


no. white is ee red, just like apricot, cream, and darker reds. it is simply lower intensity red.



HeritageHills said:


> Cream and Apricot are expressed via ee and suppress Black or Brown but are recessive.


cream and apricot are both caused by ee red, which is recessive. however, they do not truly "suppress" black or brown. It's more like they cover up the coat color. Wether a dog has black and brown pigment will still be visible by looking st the eye rims and nose leather. a dog that is black-based under the ee will have black pigment, and a dog that is brown-based will have brown/liver pigment.


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## 13thmaiden (Sep 22, 2017)

Hmmm....well, I thought I had gotten him a reputable breeder and that I had gone through the proper steps, but I may have been tricked none the less. Or I had a not very well informed breeder. I don't know. We'll just stick with Milkman theory, as I just can't figure out how it would even happen otherwise or the breeder wasn't as informed on her parents as she seemed to be.

Oh well, either way, I love this little fluffball, and he's not going to be breeding stock, maybe informal agility or obedience trials if he shows any interest in it, so his genetics only matter in a case of his own health...he's not shown any signs of genetic defects, and he will have his first visit to our vet this Tuesday for his second round of shots (He's going to LOVE that), so as long as the vet gives him a clean bill of health, I'll just chalk him up to a happy accident. XD

Edit: Wait, I just had a thought, is it possible that maybe rather than apricot, could the mother have been a really really light colored Café Au Lait??? Her nose was light brown, but maybe?


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

dogs can be clever - especially poodles - and his mom might have accidentally happened upon a dark handsome stranger without the breeder's knowledge. 

you have him and love him now, so that's all that really matters!


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## 13thmaiden (Sep 22, 2017)

True, very true. Either way, he's an annoying little fluffy devil and I love him, that's all that really matters, like you said


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

all this is facinating - Norma Jean was the only cream puppy - with black nose and points and all the others were black and the parents were black - does that make sense?lol


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Pamela said:


> all this is facinating - Norma Jean was the only cream puppy - with black nose and points and all the others were black and the parents were black - does that make sense?lol


Yes that makes sense!


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Pamela said:


> all this is facinating - Norma Jean was the only cream puppy - with black nose and points and all the others were black and the parents were black - does that make sense?lol


Hi Pamela -- Nice to see you posting again!

Yes it absolutely makes sense that Norma Jean would be the only cream puppy born to two black parents. My Cammie was one of two creams in a litter of 8 born to two black parents (well, actually her sire is blue -- but the genetics is the same as 2 blacks). Some black dogs carry the cream gene (they are Ee) and some don't (they are EE). Cream is recessive, so you need 2 cream genes to produce a cream puppy (cream puppies are always ee). If you breed two black dogs that carry the cream gene to each other (e.g. two BBEe dogs), then each puppy has a 25% chance of being BBEE (black not carrying the cream gene), a 50% chance of being BBEe (black carrying the cream gene, and a 25% chance of being BBee (cream). So in Cammie's case, those odds came out exactly as predicted -- 6 black puppies and 2 creams. In Norma Jean's litter there was only one cream. That's very much in line with what you would expect.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Pamela said:


> all this is facinating - Norma Jean was the only cream puppy - with black nose and points and all the others were black and the parents were black - does that make sense?lol


it does make sense! 

two cream dogs can’t have a black puppy, but two black dogs CAN have a cream puppy (and even brown puppies with brown points!) 

Both of Norma Jean’s parents must have been Ee, meaning they could produce EE (Black), Ee (black carrying cream), and ee (cream, like your Norma Jean)


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## 13thmaiden (Sep 22, 2017)

Much easier explaining Norma Jean's genes than Beaux XD his makes no sense aside from Milkman or some random black gene way back that the breeder didn't know about. Norma is pretty though !


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

13thmaiden said:


> Much easier explaining Norma Jean's genes than Beaux XD his makes no sense aside from Milkman or some random black gene way back that the breeder didn't know about. Norma is pretty though !


Actually the random black gene theory does not explain it. Two ee poodles (white, cream, apricot or red) simply cannot produce black offspring no matter how much black is farther back in the pedigree. Theoretically, you could have 4 black grandparents, 2 cream/white parents, and it would still be impossible to produce a black puppy. Two black poodles can produce a cream puppy, but 2 creams cannot produce a black.

I'm sticking with the milkman theory. Or maybe one of the parents was a cafe au lait, not a cream?

I agree -- the Norma Jean genetics is a lot easier to understand!


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Beaux could be a recessive black. 
it’s incredibly unlikely, but is possible! 
a color DNA test would be able to answe the question of: milkman or rare genes? once and for all ?


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Since we have experts here, a café au lait x cream could give black and café au lait, right?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Dechi said:


> Since we have experts here, a café au lait x cream could give black and café au lait, right?


Yes. A cafe au lait x cream could produce puppies that are cream, black spectrum or brown spectum. Any puppy that is born brown could remain brown or could clear to either or cafe au lait or silver beige. Similarly, any puppy that is born black could stay black or could clear to blue or silver.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Dechi said:


> Since we have experts here, a café au lait x cream could give black and café au lait, right?


I *think* I have this right: you could get black and light brown (what you call cafe au lait, but which is just genetically brown) puppies from brown x cream, but ONLY if the cream parent had black pigment. So you would get some combination of brown, cream, and black puppies if the cream parent carried brown and cream and the brown parent carried cream. If the cream parent has liver pigment, then they cannot produce black when bred to brown, because we know that dog is bbee.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

a cafe au lait x cream could potentially produce: cream (liver or black pigment), cream with fading(liver or black pigment), brown, cafe au lait, black, or blue

(that is all assuming that the cream parent carries no fading genes. if it does, the litter could also include silver beiges and silvers.)



Verve said:


> I *think* I have this right: you could get black and light brown (what you call cafe au lait, but which is just genetically brown) puppies from brown x cream, but ONLY if the cream parent had black pigment.


cafe au lait is specifically a brown-based dog with a single copy of progressive greying 

Otherwise, yes. You’re correct!


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

So, since OP said she thought that one parent had liver pigment, and one had black, IF somehow the parent with liver pigment was a silver beige (the breeder would really have to have no clue about colors if they weren't aware of this...) and the parent with black pigment was a cream (black based), there would be a possibility of black puppies. However, all the puppies would carry at least one copy of the progressive graying gene which would mean that Beaux would be a blue instead of black. Do I have that right? Haha this thread has been fun to learn more about the colors, that is for sure.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Coldbrew said:


> cafe au lait is specifically a brown-based dog with a single copy of progressive greying
> 
> Otherwise, yes. You’re correct!


Some of us don't talk about genes we don't have a test for.


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## Rocpoodle (Jul 15, 2017)

Coldbrew said:


> a cafe au lait x cream could potentially produce: cream (liver or black pigment), cream with fading(liver or black pigment), brown, cafe au lait, black, or blue
> 
> (that is all assuming that the cream parent carries no fading genes. if it does, the litter could also include silver beiges and silvers.)
> 
> ...


I have a question about the brown spectrum. What I've gathered is that the relationship of brown, cafe au lait, silver beige is comparable to that of black, blue, silver -- silver and silver beige pups are born black and brown respectively, and begin to clear very early, whereas blue and cafe pups do not clear from black/brown until much later. 

My question is, how does one distinguish a brown who fades from a cafe? It seems that not all, but the majority of browns do fade at some point, to some degree. Is every brown who fades around 2-3 years considered cafe? 

Another question, is there a difference between "clearing" and "fading?"


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Coldbrew said:


> theoretically, a parti poodle with an excessive amount of white could look totally white (picture a bull terrier, which are extreme piebald) while actually being any color 'beneath' the white. however, as far as i know there aren't any piebalds that extreme in the gene pool, since the standard in all kennel clubs discourages against them.


CM and I also thought about extreme piebald covering an actual color. And I *have* noticed some pretty extreme piebald red and white partis, with a lot of incomplete nose pigment to boot. They've been produced by what I perceive to be pretty sketchy breeders, so pretty far off the reservation as far as being connected to any breed standard. (ETA a photo of a red and white parti puppy with a LOT of white on it.) 

Since the OP said that the sire looked white/cream with black pigment and the dam looked apricot with liver pigment, then the piebald scenario would have the sire in fact be a silver parti with extreme piebalding, right? That's something I've never come across.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Coldbrew said:


> HeritageHills said:
> 
> 
> > white is actually very different genetically from cream or Apricot.
> ...



Thanks for the clarification







. I'm not sure what I had read that had given me that impression, but I'm glad to have that straightened out. 




Is that why the Parti/piebald gene doesn't affect health the way other genes for white do? I've read some lately about the color genetics for things like Merle/Harlequin and keep hearing about the link between white animals and aggression. Even in horses and I presume other animals. Some articles have used the term double piebald, but I'm thinking they must be talking about a different piebald than Sp???


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## 13thmaiden (Sep 22, 2017)

Actually the white gene in horses that you're thinking of is the Fatal white Syndrome, it actually kills the foals. It's something in the Frame Overo gene that pops up. Whites not connected to that gene usually are fine otherwise.

I think the white coat aggression thing is more for cats...

Anyways, back on coat colors and such, since I'm pretty much in the dark on the parents with only what I remember and clearly a not well informed breeder, it might be possible he'll turn blue. It will be interesting to see either way what he becomes if he does change.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

extreme white (regardless of genotype) is associated with health issues, and has been linked to aggression in mice, rats and (i believe) horses.

extreme white is linked to deafness in dogs, especially when the white extends to the ears. This is shown with double merles and maxim white breed (like dalmatians and some setters) where there is a high incidence of deafness.

there are also theories that the unstable temperaments of dalmatians is similar to the aggression found in mice, and that it’s caused by the extreme white. if i recall correctly, it has something to do with improper development of the brain that is linked to the improper spread of pigment that causes piebald. 

double piebald in itself is not an issue (all parti poodles are double piebald), but rather double piebalds that are ALSO extreme piebalds. unlike breeds where extreme piebalds are required (like dalmatians) the poodle breed standard discourages them (a rare instance of the breed standard making good scientific/health sense )


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

I had been reading about Dalmatians also, because I found an interesting site that was discussing a bunch of different breeds. That is kinda how I started looking into the white/double Merle color stuff. Have you ever heard of Great Dane champions coming from double Harlequin? That gene has the same lethality issues, but it appears that even high-end Dane breeders are unconcerned about the consequences because there are at least a few CH's(!) that have clearly come from a double Harlequin breeding.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

great danes have some of the most ridiculous color rules i’ve seen in any breed. they blatantly ignore proven genetic science; it’s nuts. 

harlequin is a modifier that affects merle (so a dog can carry harlequin, but it won’t be visible unless the dog is also merle). breeding two phenotypically harlequin dogs is the same as breeding two merle dogs. it shouldn’t be done. 

that said, two harlequin merles will result in 1/2 merle, 1/4 non-merle, and 1/4 double merle, just like any other merle to merle breeding. 3/4 of the litter will be showable dogs, and if the two harlequin parents were quality dogs, they’re just as likely to produce a champion as any other color breeding.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Right on, Verve - and thanks for the chart. Hope the milkman confessed.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

This is a good discussion on color. I came away thinking that it is a good thing that the breed standard requires solid colors. In some countries, only basic colors (black, white, cream, brown, and, I think, silver) are allowed. No dilute colors.


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## 13thmaiden (Sep 22, 2017)

He never confessed wherever he is XD

I dunno about that, there's a lot of good dogs with abstract and pied markings, I think it's mostly about keeping proper records of lineage. I mean in some breeding standards, like Great Danes, it can be outright nuts how they breed without caring about the dangers of some colors (as already stated).


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