# DIY tail docking and dewclaw removal



## Fluffyspoos

I've heard of breeders using nail clippers for the dewclaws and using the powder you use on bleeding nails to seal the wound. There's no way in hell I'd ever do it myself if I were a breeder :x I'd be too scared, plus, if they cried I'd lose it.


----------



## bigpoodleperson

I would think that just using powder after dewclaws and not suturing would leave an ugly scar! I am interested to know how breeders do it at home too.


----------



## Marian

Here's a list of videos I found. Some of them are not for the squeamish (like me, for example). Why do I look at these things?? 

http://tinyurl.com/yhjvzea


----------



## flyingduster

bigpoodleperson said:


> I would think that just using powder after dewclaws and not suturing would leave an ugly scar! I am interested to know how breeders do it at home too.


yup; you can always tell a home job vs a vet job on the tail & dew claws, by the big ugly scar!


----------



## Fluffyspoos

Wow, with the home jobs I'm seeing there's pretty much no blood on both the tails and dewclaws, but blood with the ones done at the vet, and they cried more.


----------



## aki

I'm definitely for dew claw removal. It saves you and your pet from more pain later in life...but I could honestly not do it myself!

:crying: I'd cry the whole time.

I'm more interested in tail docking at home...that to me is something that should be done by a vet and sutured closed.


----------



## Harley_chik

I think a lot of breeders do the tails themselves b/c it's not easy to find a vet who will do docking and do it properly. Poodles in particular are supposed to have a longer docked tail and I've heard of many vets doing the tails too short. I have no idea who did Harley's tail but it's too long for a Rottie. It almost looks like a Dobie tail.


----------



## Fluffyspoos

Isn't the standard for poodles to have a third taken off? I hear of a lot of people doing half on half off.


----------



## cbrand

The new standard seems to be 1/3 off.... 2/3 on. We measured exactly with the latest litter and the vet used a laser. The tails are perfect. In the previous litter I think we left them too long which exacerbated the already horribly gay tails. Shudder...... 

I have seen them cut w/styptic powder, cut with a stitch and done with a laser. I'm not sure that there is a noticeable difference in the end of an adult tail.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

The standard for Spoos is two fifths off, three fifths on.

We do it ourselves. My biggest reason is it scares me half to death taking three day old pups to a vet clinic. They are tiny and vulnerable. You can take all the precautions with the babies, but Mama dog has to tag along, and she could bring anything home on her feet.

The second biggest reason is the mess most vets make of the length. They don't breed the breed, so have no clue what the ideal is. Even if you are there instructing them, it is too easy to make mistakes. I have seen way too many Spoos with tails that look like chicken nuggets, and you can fake a too long tail, but if it is too short, an otherwise perfect specimen can be ruined by endiing up with a bunny tail.

We use scissors, and have special notched dew claw scissors for that part of the job. We use silver nitrate sticks to cauterize everything and they go back to their box to nurse clean as a whistle and quite content. I have heard of some breeders and vets that use dog toe nail clippers for the tails, and that makes perfect sense to me.You would want to use only clippers that are new and have never been dulled by actually clipping of toe nails!! We may try this next time.

The dew claws are much easier than the tails, and if you don't dig and just do what you are supposed to do, there is never a scar. It is clean, quick, and the pups let out one quick squeak for each dew and the tail, then they go back in with Mom and the rest of their litter and in five minutes are happily nursing away.

I would challenge anyone to be able to tell the difference on the tails and dews that we have done as opposed to tails and dews a vet has done. It is vital though that everything is sterilized before you begin and between each puppy. We soak the equipment in alcohol between each one, and where we do it has been wiped down with Lysol wipes and misted with Lysol spray. We are very careful, and check everything for signs of infection three or four times a day. I have never had a pup lose weight, but rather gain on the day it is done, which is a good indicator that they have not been traumatized.

It is becoming illegal in some provinces and states for vets to do it, so more breeders are going to have to learn how. Until the CKC and AKC makes it the norm for Spoos to be shown with undocked tails as in Europe, some breeders will need to continue to do it, and they may have to begin doing it themselves.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

BTW....the entire process for both dews and the tail for each puppy takes about three minutes.


----------



## bigredpoodle

I leave this to the professionals , it is worth every penny .. Husband goes in with them to be sure that the tails are docked where we want them. Dr Jerry listens to everyone hearts and checks them over for cleft palete as well as a thourogh check of mom.. WE ask before going if there was any sickness there , such as distemper parvo or anything else contagious.. They are very careful there..He puts a stich in everyones tail with a flap of skin so there is no bald spot there., and he removes the littlepiece of bone on the dews.. I would not EVER DREAM of doing my own tails and dews


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

bigredpoodle said:


> I leave this to the professionals , it is worth every penny .. Husband goes in with them to be sure that the tails are docked where we want them. Dr Jerry listens to everyone hearts and checks them over for cleft palete as well as a thourogh check of mom.. WE ask before going if there was any sickness there , such as distemper parvo or anything else contagious.. They are very careful there..He puts a stich in everyones tail with a flap of skin so there is no bald spot there., and he removes the littlepiece of bone on the dews.. I would not EVER DREAM of doing my own tails and dews


Personal preference I suppose. I would never dream of taking three day old pups to a vet clinic where most of the dogs that walk through the door are there because they are sick.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

flyingduster said:


> yup; you can always tell a home job vs a vet job on the tail & dew claws, by the big ugly scar!


I don`t agree. Our puppies never have a scar any bigger than if the vet did them. Very clean, very small.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Fluffyspoos said:


> Wow, with the home jobs I'm seeing there's pretty much no blood on both the tails and dewclaws, but blood with the ones done at the vet, and they cried more.


That is likely because they are in familiar surroundings with familiar smells, and it isn`t cold and clinical. We snuggle the babies before and after.


----------



## Marian

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Personal preference I suppose. I would never dream of taking three day old pups to a vet clinic where most of the dogs that walk through the door are there because they are sick.


Hard to argue with that reasoning.


----------



## Purple Poodle

I personally feel it should not be done at all. The only exception would be unattached dew claws.

But if I were a breeder who docked/dewed I would have my Vet do a house call.


----------



## flyingduster

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I don`t agree. Our puppies never have a scar any bigger than if the vet did them. Very clean, very small.


Touché! Well ok then, I can still spot most home jobs compared to vet jobs! lol. That is, I haven't seen the nasty big scars or bald tails from a vet done job, only home jobs. If it was a neat lil scar I have never really assumed it was done by a vet, it's more that the messy ones I've always assumed they were done at home!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

flyingduster said:


> Touché! Well ok then, I can still spot most home jobs compared to vet jobs! lol. That is, I haven't seen the nasty big scars or bald tails from a vet done job, only home jobs. If it was a neat lil scar I have never really assumed it was done by a vet, it's more that the messy ones I've always assumed they were done at home!


Well, I am sure some people should not be doing their pups themselves, but I am sure too that some vets should not be doing them either. If someone wishes to learn how to do it, they should have a mentor (in my case, helping my Mom over many years helped me) show them what to do and not just attempt it without watching and helping someone who has done it before.


----------



## Poodlepal

Well now you have to really go looking for those scars on poodles because they get so covered with hair by the time they are just a few months old you are hard pressed to find it anyway. Vets where I used to live loved docking the tails too short. Could always spot a vet job. I hate the process and won't do it myself because I am too softhearted but if it is my pups, I am getting a pro to do the job, and I don't mean a vet.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Good plan Poodlepal. Will you be getting an experienced breeder to do it, someone who has done their own and done it well?


----------



## gurushell

*tail docking*

I am new to the forum and acyually I am horrified. Who docks tails on any dog any more let alone a lovely long poodle tail. It sounds to me like the question is not where should I dock it but why in the blazes would you? I for one would not e happy having someone dock my tail bone. I hope my post gives at least one person "paws" for thought!


----------



## Purple Poodle

gurushell said:


> I am new to the forum and acyually I am horrified. Who docks tails on any dog any more let alone a lovely long poodle tail. It sounds to me like the question is not where should I dock it but why in the blazes would you? I for one would not e happy having someone dock my tail bone. I hope my post gives at least one person "paws" for thought!


Its common practice in American and I for one will be happy to see it banned  and natural tails widely accepted.


----------



## Taxi

Banfield, The Pet Hospital®, is based in Portland, Oregon and operates several veterinary practice hospitals in the United States, the United Kingdom and Mexico. They employ thousands of veterinary personnel and staff. As the largest privately held veterinary practice in the US, when they make an "in-house" decision, it is news.

Banfield recently announced that the practice group will no longer perform cosmetic (elective) ear crops and tail docking for dogs. They join many veterinary practices who have already elected not to perform these cosmetic procedures. 

I do not know from personal experience but have talk to some people who do agility and they say it helps the dogs if they keep their dewclaw.

Our two standards both have their tails although the rest of the litter was done.


----------



## gurushell

*tail docking*

Thanks purple poodle for clearing that up. Most states here in Australia have legislated to ban tail docking on all breeds. I have never even seen a poodle with a docked tail. I applaud those of you who have made the decision to go natural and hope the idea spreads. As I say, we still need all Aussie states to get with the program. I know it is about puppy politics but gee, I hope the waggers win in the end!


----------



## gurushell

Oh and well done taxi for being the on whose puppies can really let you see their spirits wag!


----------



## Harley_chik

Banfield has a horrible reputation for the quality of care they provide. I wouldn't go by what they say in a million years. Being the biggest means they cut more corners and put money above all else IMO. Should we put Walmart in charge of labor laws or McD's in charge of Food Safety?

Animal abuse (real abuse like dog fighting), pet overpopulation, breed specific legislation and commercial breeding are all problems on an international level. I think it's absurd to pass legislation on docking, while ignoring the real dangers our pets face. I also think it would be absurd for breed clubs or registries to tackle such an issue, while ignoring health issues or mass puppy production. Considering that half of all dogs born in the US don't live to see their second birthday and many of the rest live a life of suffering, a docked tail is the least of their worries.


----------



## Fluffyspoos

Harley_chik said:


> Banfield has a horrible reputation for the quality of care they provide. I wouldn't go by what they say in a million years. Being the biggest means they cut more corners and put money above all else IMO. Should we put Walmart in charge of labor laws or McD's in charge of Food Safety?
> 
> Animal abuse (real abuse like dog fighting), pet overpopulation, breed specific legislation and commercial breeding are all problems on an international level. I think it's absurd to pass legislation on docking, while ignoring the real dangers our pets face. I also think it would be absurd for breed clubs or registries to tackle such an issue, while ignoring health issues or mass puppy production. Considering that half of all dogs born in the US don't live to see their second birthday and many of the rest live a life of suffering, a docked tail is the least of their worries.


Agreed! And I can tell you from experience about the huge prices Banfield charges. x_x


----------



## Purple Poodle

Harley_chik said:


> Animal abuse (real abuse like dog fighting), pet overpopulation, breed specific legislation and commercial breeding are all problems on an international level. I think it's absurd to pass legislation on docking, while ignoring the real dangers our pets face. I also think it would be absurd for breed clubs or registries to tackle such an issue, while ignoring health issues or mass puppy production. Considering that half of all dogs born in the US don't live to see their second birthday and many of the rest live a life of suffering, a docked tail is the least of their worries.


While I agree there are more pressing issues in animal welfare I do not think docking and cropping should be completely ignored.

Its a pointless procedure and the majority are done incorrectly and look horrible. If Vets would just simply refuse to do the procedures it would slowly go away, especially cropping as that's a mess in the hands of a dumb ass with shears and if more dogs in the public eye like show dogs were natural it would become common place to see natural dogs and thus become more accepted. But as for America I believe that will be many, many years from now.

But I digress, we can agree to disagree on this as it has come up before and we all stand where we stand on the issue.


----------



## Locket

The way I see it, if docking/cropping/dews becomes outlawed, there are going to be A LOT of dogs (not so much poodles, but dobes, rotties, etc) that will suffer HORRIBLE, botched home-done jobs...I say keep it legal.


----------



## Purple Poodle

Locket said:


> The way I see it, if docking/cropping/dews becomes outlawed, there are going to be A LOT of dogs (not so much poodles, but dobes, rotties, etc) that will suffer HORRIBLE, botched home-done jobs...I say keep it legal.


People do it anyway so that's really a moot point. As this thread has shown the majority of "breeders" do home jobs.


----------



## PonkiPoodles

Locket said:


> The way I see it, if docking/cropping/dews becomes outlawed, there are going to be A LOT of dogs (not so much poodles, but dobes, rotties, etc) that will suffer HORRIBLE, botched home-done jobs...I say keep it legal.


I agree 100%... people are not going to stop doing it just because the law says not too. I'm originally from south africa - the country banned tail docking in 2007. You still see puppies being sold at the local petstore with docked tails.


----------



## Locket

Purple Poodle said:


> People do it anyway so that's really a moot point. As this thread has shown the majority of "breeders" do home jobs.


Well, I was making the assumption that reputable breeders would follow the law, and the BYB breeders would not. It's a bad assumption to make, but not totally unfounded (as Ponki stated). I'm not really speaking of poodles in this situation, but dobes. Tails are not so hard to dock, but cropping ears is a different story. Once you've seen a botched ear crop on a dobe, its heart wrenching to think of what they went through...Cropping is not a DIY job...


----------



## thestars

Locket said:


> Well, I was making the assumption that reputable breeders would follow the law, and the BYB breeders would not. It's a bad assumption to make, but not totally unfounded (as Ponki stated). I'm not really speaking of poodles in this situation, but dobes. Tails are not so hard to dock, but cropping ears is a different story. Once you've seen a botched ear crop on a dobe, its heart wrenching to think of what they went through...Cropping is not a DIY job...


Parent dog clubs are the driving factor in what is the "norm." Until they see fit to designate that an un-docked tail is acceptable in the poodle standard for the conformation ring, judges are instructed of this and big kennel names start the trend so that their is no discrimination based on tail. IMO - It needs to stay legal.


----------



## bigredpoodle

I agree that cropping and docking should be left to the Vets  Mine does a GREAT job..


----------



## thestars

bigredpoodle said:


> I agree that cropping and docking should be left to the Vets  Mine does a GREAT job..


Their are 6 vets in my clinic and only one I would have do it, plus any operations. That one vet was instructed by me on where to dock and I'm there.


----------



## bigredpoodle

Agree on that,,,,,,, one of us always goes in with the babies ,,,hubby goes in ,,,,, it is predetermined where the tail will be cropped..


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

I would never DREAM of cropping ears, even if I bred the breeds that require it. THAT is a major job and should be done by folks who have experience and lots of it. And I don`t think a vet is neccessarily the right person. A reputable breeder of these breeds who has done their own over the years is maybe the right person for the job. Again, if the vet doing it does not breed the breed, he does not know what look you are trying to achieve and can ruin the entire look of the dog like the Poos with the chicken Nugget tails out there.

I think the ear cropping is bloody awful, but truth be told, if I had a choice between two Dobe breeders who shared the same qualities, the same ethics and were breeding similar quality dogs, and one would sell me an uncropped puppy and the other cropped, I would buy the puppy with cropped ears because to me, THAT is what a Dobe should look like. That may not make me popular, but it is the truth for me.


----------



## KPoos

I'm just curious how you determine where to dock a puppy tail? Some tails naturally grow longer than others as the puppy grows and some don't. Harry has a long docked tail. I wish she would have docked it shorter because it would balance his body out better but you can't take it back now. Mia's tail is docked shorter and when I got her thought too short but as she's growing she looks much better because the tail is growing also.


----------



## plumcrazy

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Again, if the vet doing it does not breed the breed, he does not know what look you are trying to achieve and can ruin the entire look of the dog like the Poos with the chicken Nugget tails out there.


:lol: Heehee! Meau has a chicken nugget tail!  Her "breeder" did tell us that her vet did the procedure, but she was a baaaaaaad breeder (and sort of a horrible person, too) so who really knows if that was true or not... It really doesn't make us love Meau any less and even though sometimes hubby teases her about having such a teeny tiny tail - she wags it just as hard as if it were docked to standard! We love our Meauzer!


----------



## Taxi

Before I had Standard Poodles, I had two red dobies both natural (natural tail & ears) as the day they were born. Dobe's with dock tails run differently than ones with natural tails. They use them for balance. I cannot say one was better or worse, they just ran differently. This is also true for poodles to some degree. That degree being, how long or short the tail is. I have seen poodles with tails that were a little longer than a dobe. There is a reason why we are born with certain body parts in the evolution of life.


----------



## Locket

It's funny because Matrix (our first spoo) has his full tail, and while Mitch has a perfect length docked tail, I call Mitch's tail "the stump". Matrix thinks it makes a great tug toy, much to Mitch's dismay.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

KPoos said:


> I'm just curious how you determine where to dock a puppy tail? Some tails naturally grow longer than others as the puppy grows and some don't. Harry has a long docked tail. I wish she would have docked it shorter because it would balance his body out better but you can't take it back now. Mia's tail is docked shorter and when I got her thought too short but as she's growing she looks much better because the tail is growing also.


If you use a formula like we do (3/5ths on, 2/5ths off) it doesn't matter how long the tail is on an individual puppy because you are removing 2/5ths of it. If it is a big long Whippet type tail, and you remove 2/5ths of it, you are taking off a lot. If it is more a medium tail like a Poo, you are not removing what seems to be as much, but it is still 2/5ths. Does that make sense???


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

plumcrazy said:


> :lol: Heehee! Meau has a chicken nugget tail!  Her "breeder" did tell us that her vet did the procedure, but she was a baaaaaaad breeder (and sort of a horrible person, too) so who really knows if that was true or not... It really doesn't make us love Meau any less and even though sometimes hubby teases her about having such a teeny tiny tail - she wags it just as hard as if it were docked to standard! We love our Meauzer!


God bless Meau and her little stumpy tail, because even with her wee chicken nugget, she has been enough of an ambassador to make you want another Spoo (and maybe another, and another).


----------



## PonkiPoodles

bigredpoodle said:


> I agree that cropping and docking should be left to the Vets  Mine does a GREAT job..


I think that all really depends. I've seen some docked tails that were done by vets and they did a worse job than if the breeder would have just done it themselves using the banding method.
For a lack of a better word - they screwed up.

I'm not really a fan of cropping and would still own dobes even if they didn't have cropped ears (or any other breed for that matter) But I do like my tails docked. 
And you can definitely tell whether a breeder does a good job by docking the tails themselves - just look at the tails from previous litters they've done.

It's hard to tell whether the vet will screw up or not... cause I don't know any vet that keeps pictures of the crop or dock they did.


----------



## PonkiPoodles

Taxi said:


> There is a reason why we are born with certain body parts in the evolution of life.


Look at this article on the science channel that lists 10 useless organs that humans still carry around:

http://science.discovery.com/top-ten/2008/organs/organs.html


----------



## Taxi

PonkiPoodles said:


> Look at this article on the science channel that lists 10 useless organs that humans still carry around:
> 
> http://science.discovery.com/top-ten/2008/organs/organs.html


I like *#8 - Sinuses*

*"Doctors don't really know much about sinuses, only that we have a lot of them*. Possibilities for their function range from insulating our eyes to changing the pitch and tone of our voice."

They do not know much about them but they guess at their function =*Useless* :doh:

*# - 2 Appendix* is also pretty good

"Darwin claimed the appendix was useful for digestion during our early plant-eating years; it's dwindled down to little since we started eating more digestible foods"

but on the other hand, *"New studies propose that the appendix may harbor and protect bacteria that are beneficial in the function of the human colon for the Immune functions."* hwell:

But the best has to be* #1 - Male Nipples*
*
"Because, why?"*

If I may make a suggestion, these should be *docked*. 

you got to wonder if they got this from a
* David Letterman's Top 10 List. * :eyebrows:


----------



## Fluffyspoos

PonkiPoodles said:


> Look at this article on the science channel that lists 10 useless organs that humans still carry around:
> 
> http://science.discovery.com/top-ten/2008/organs/organs.html


Man, I really wish I could use my third eyelid like my dog.. y'know, getting very dramatic dreams and opening my eyes except for that lid, kicking my legs, and snoring like a train. 

Men seem to be very proud of their useless nipples though.


----------



## Taxi

Fluffyspoos said:


> <snip>
> 
> Men seem to be very proud of their useless nipples though.


Now that is a *TOUCHY *subject.... :rofl:


----------



## taxtell

Some days I wish I could have my sinuses removed. >.<


----------



## KPoos

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> If you use a formula like we do (3/5ths on, 2/5ths off) it doesn't matter how long the tail is on an individual puppy because you are removing 2/5ths of it. If it is a big long Whippet type tail, and you remove 2/5ths of it, you are taking off a lot. If it is more a medium tail like a Poo, you are not removing what seems to be as much, but it is still 2/5ths. Does that make sense???


Yes but you use 2/5ths for every single puppy? My question was if you have a line that has longer tails would you adjust for those puppies or are you going to use 2/5ths even for them and just have a longer docked tail? Some lines just have different tails so I was curious if you adjust for that.


----------



## PonkiPoodles

ROFLMAO!!!! Yeah, some men truely are infatuated with them! :biggrin:

And Taxi you are right it does sound like something that could come from a David letterman top 10 Baaaaaahahahahahaha!

Sorry... I couldn't help it!

:focus:

http://www.huntecorp.com/breeder/26_Tail Docking Guidelines.asp


----------



## Taxi

KPoos said:


> Yes but you use 2/5ths for every single puppy? My question was if you have a line that has longer tails would you adjust for those puppies or are you going to use 2/5ths even for them and just have a longer docked tail? Some lines just have different tails so I was curious if you adjust for that.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> The tip of the tail will reach the hock joint no matter what the size of the dog is (yes this is a general rule of thumb). The length of the tail will be in proportion with the rest of the dog. So 2/5ths of the tail, will always be 2/5ths, no mater what the length of the tail is. Therefore the dock tail will be in proportion with the size of the dog.
> 
> ps
> to clarify - I am using the figure 2/5ths because you are using it.


----------



## Locket

Taxi said:


> The tip of the tail will reach the the hock joint no mater what the size of the dog is (yes this is a general rule of thumb). The length of the tail will be in proportion with the rest of the dog. So 2/5ths of the tail, will always be 2/5ths, no mater what the length of the tail is. Therefore the dock tail will be in proportion with the size of the dog.
> 
> ps
> too clarify - I am using the figure 2/5ths because you are using it.


What he said. It's the same thing as what's heavier, a pound of bricks or a pound of feathers?


----------



## Fluffyspoos

Taxi said:


> The tip of the tail will reach the the hock joint no mater what the size of the dog is (yes this is a general rule of thumb). The length of the tail will be in proportion with the rest of the dog. So 2/5ths of the tail, will always be 2/5ths, no mater what the length of the tail is. Therefore the dock tail will be in proportion with the size of the dog.
> 
> ps
> too clarify - I am using the figure 2/5ths because you are using it.


Is this before or after the dock?


----------



## KPoos

Taxi said:


> KPoos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but you use 2/5ths for every single puppy? My question was if you have a line that has longer tails would you adjust for those puppies or are you going to use 2/5ths even for them and just have a longer docked tail? Some lines just have different tails so I was curious if you adjust for that.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> The tip of the tail will reach the the hock joint no mater what the size of the dog is (yes this is a general rule of thumb). The length of the tail will be in proportion with the rest of the dog. So 2/5ths of the tail, will always be 2/5ths, no mater what the length of the tail is. Therefore the dock tail will be in proportion with the size of the dog.
> 
> ps
> too clarify - I am using the figure 2/5ths because you are using it.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying that a 3 week old puppy has a tail that reaches the hock joint? I'm just wondering when looking at an itty bitty puppy, how do you determine what length to use on it?
Click to expand...


----------



## cbrand

Along with the 1/3 -- 2/3 ratio, we also try to eyeball the cut and make sure that the tail will ultimately be long enough to be even with the top of a Poodle's head.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Taxi said:


> KPoos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but you use 2/5ths for every single puppy? My question was if you have a line that has longer tails would you adjust for those puppies or are you going to use 2/5ths even for them and just have a longer docked tail? Some lines just have different tails so I was curious if you adjust for that.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> The tip of the tail will reach the the hock joint no mater what the size of the dog is (yes this is a general rule of thumb). The length of the tail will be in proportion with the rest of the dog. So 2/5ths of the tail, will always be 2/5ths, no mater what the length of the tail is. Therefore the dock tail will be in proportion with the size of the dog.
> 
> ps
> too clarify - I am using the figure 2/5ths because you are using it.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly right. Sheesh. I was sitting here trying to figure out how to explain it, and now I don't have to! Thank you.
Click to expand...


----------



## bigpoodleperson

Ive said it before, and ill say it again. I Like dogs with a (well) docked tail, and i Like cropped ears. I much prefer a poodle with a docked tail to an undocked tail (esp if it is horribaly gay!). 
I agree with Harley also that we need to focus more on bigger issues then this.


----------



## KPoos

Yeah this is like arguing over circumcision and I doubt later on in life the dogs look at you and think "I didn't ask to have a 2/5ths of my tail cut off. I want it back."


----------



## Fluffyspoos

KPoos said:


> Yeah this is like arguing over circumcision and I doubt later on in life the dogs look at you and think "I didn't ask to have a 2/5ths of my tail cut off. I want it back."


lol nice, yeah, agreed


----------



## Olie

Aw geez, we could go real off topic, but for some skin is in


----------



## Mister

Arreau you sound like such a knowledgable woman i would love to have one of your puppies one day in the future...
My Mister has no dew claws and i cant even see a scar or anything but his tail is another story. his tail is only about 5 vertebrates long! It has a big ugly bald spot on the tip and i can feel the skinny end of his bone at the tip of his tail. Its just horrible. Makes me wonder who the heck did it!

I personally agree with docking (for the breed) and removing the dews.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

What a shame about Mister's tail. Could you ask his breeder if they did it, or if they had a vet do it? I have seen so many bad jobs that were vet done. If have also heard of but never seen bad breeder jobs. I have also seen a few web sites where the dogs are fine looking, and their tails are just so short, they look ridiculous, and the breeder just cannot seem to see it for themself. But, I guess with your poor fellow,what is done is done and thankfully whoever did the mess on his tail did a decent job on his dew claws.

Thank you much for your kind words. I would be thrilled if one day you were Mommy to one of my redheads. We have a lot of exciting plans coming up in the next few years.


----------



## WonderPup

I saw in a pet supply catolog a few years ago a pair of nail clippers and he discription for the large size actually listed tail docking as a possible use. 

We've done our own dewclaw on a litter of pups ONCE. Used hemostates and ther was no blood and no crying from the pups. Had another breeder do them, she missed one though and failed to removed it entirely so it grew back. When they go to the vet for dewclaws there is no sticking btw, they did it the same way the other breeder had done it and used the silver stuff and all done. 

Wouldn't know much about tail docking, since we don't. I kind of lie the look of a nicely docked tail, but don't mind the natural tail either. I have no opinion one way or the other really... as far as poodles go at least.


----------



## Mister

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> What a shame about Mister's tail. Could you ask his breeder if they did it, or if they had a vet do it? I have seen so many bad jobs that were vet done. If have also heard of but never seen bad breeder jobs. I have also seen a few web sites where the dogs are fine looking, and their tails are just so short, they look ridiculous, and the breeder just cannot seem to see it for themself. But, I guess with your poor fellow,what is done is done and thankfully whoever did the mess on his tail did a decent job on his dew claws.
> 
> Thank you much for your kind words. I would be thrilled if one day you were Mommy to one of my redheads. We have a lot of exciting plans coming up in the next few years.


Well i got Mister at 8 months old and the older couple i got him from were pretty vague on where he came from. They said he was basicly byb but had two purebred parents...some crazy person and their daughter had the dam and sire and thought it would be fun to make puppies. So im thinking the pups were never registered and have no idea who did the tails. Im tempted to go back and see if i can get clearer info on Misters past and parents. My friend still grooms one of their dogs.

And actually now that i look at where his dews used to be, i can see a little scar but nothing horrible. I just wonder how the dews were done so well and the tail so horrible lol. Ill have to post some closer pics for you guys to see. Its bad 

And your welcome Arreau! i have always admired you and your pooches!!!


----------



## KPoos

Olie said:


> Aw geez, we could go real off topic, but for some skin is in


Totally! We didn't do my 3rd son's and through research found out that it's "in" now so he won't be like the guy other guys make fun of in the locker room.:lol:


----------



## gurushell

I am feeling like a distinct minority here, maybe some other Australian members will share my views, maybe I am on the wrong forum altogether. I just love poodles. I was pretty shocked to read the ear cropping doberman post, I have only seen this on films as us bleeding hearts down under banned that too, I am pleased to say! I think it is all so pointless. Then again I am passionate about supporting breeders who breed for the quality and temperement we all love in beautiful dogs who are strong and healthy, and not conforming to some breed statndard for standard sake. I have never been in a forum before so excuse my lack of ettiquette and opinions if they offend. Just a bit shocked is all. I had best leave this thread before you all ask me to leave! Cheers!


----------



## gurushell

Yes but you are hardly likely to wander in to your gp and say, oh, I have 10 useless organs, whack them out for me will ya I could stand to lose a few! Wonder if your dogs feel the same way!


----------



## Olie

Mister said:


> Arreau you sound like such a knowledgable woman i would love to have one of your puppies one day in the future...
> My Mister has no dew claws and i cant even see a scar or anything but his tail is another story. his tail is only about 5 vertebrates long! It has a big ugly bald spot on the tip and i can feel the skinny end of his bone at the tip of his tail. Its just horrible. Makes me wonder who the heck did it!
> 
> I personally agree with docking (for the breed) and removing the dews.


I counted Olie's exactly 5! His is not a showing bald spots but it is a bunny tail for sure........:wacko:


----------



## Olie

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> What a shame about Mister's tail. Could you ask his breeder if they did it, or if they had a vet do it? I have seen so many bad jobs that were vet done. If have also heard of but never seen bad breeder jobs. I have also seen a few web sites where the dogs are fine looking, and their tails are just so short, they look ridiculous, and the breeder just cannot seem to see it for themself. But, I guess with your poor fellow,what is done is done and thankfully whoever did the mess on his tail did a decent job on his dew claws.
> 
> Thank you much for your kind words. I would be thrilled if one day you were Mommy to one of my redheads. We have a lot of exciting plans coming up in the next few years.


No more dogs for me for a few years................but if I do, you will be on my top list as well.  Nikki swares she is taking he pommies when and IF she moves out


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Thank you Ollie!! I am happy people here can see that my pups are lovely, and that I am endeavouring to do the best I can do. There are going to be some interesting and exciting litters in the next few years, and I am sure that one of those redheaded babies would fit into your family beautifully. I would be happy to have one living with you!!


----------



## plumcrazy

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I would be happy to have one living with you!!


No, no NOOOOOO!!!They're all MINE, I tell you, *MINE!!!* Mwahahahaha!! Just kidding (sort of!) I would love to add another Arreau to my quiver at home, but I suppose I can share (if I HAVE to!!!)  

TOTALLY off topic, but MY little Arreau girl has been attending Rally O classes with hubby and me (we've been to 2 classes so far) and she ROCKS!!! We went through a practice pattern last night (10 easy stations) and we got APPLAUSE from the rest of the class when we were done!! :lol: Of course it helps that she's the BABY of the class and everyone loves her!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Way to go you guys!!! I am proud of Princess Lucybug. She is a gem!!! And I am afraid you will have to share because otherwise you are going have an overflowing quiver.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Of course she rocks...her name IS Arreau's Rock With You!!!


----------



## plumcrazy

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Of course she rocks...her name IS Arreau's Rock With You!!!


:lol: I wondered if you would catch that!!


----------



## Mister

Olie said:


> I counted Olie's exactly 5! His is not a showing bald spots but it is a bunny tail for sure........:wacko:


Oh sad! I hate how short Misters tail is, wish i could get a tail transplant lol.


----------



## bigredpoodle

Mister said:


> Oh sad! I hate how short Misters tail is, wish i could get a tail transplant lol.


It is important as a breeder to have control over how much is taken off for sure sorry about your babies tail  We are still experimenting with the perfect length ...


----------



## Taxi

Mister said:


> Oh sad! I hate how short Misters tail is, wish i could get a tail transplant lol.


Take Misters to the salon and get a hair weave.


----------



## Mister

He would need a full blown transplant...needs a few more vertebrates...he has the poof on the end of his tail and it doesnt hide it. Im just trying to grow it out now again to sort of disguise it.


----------



## Mercury's Mom

Even though my boys came from a pretty bad byb she did an ok job with their tails. She did it herself after researching lenght online. Im glad she did because the vets around here think all poodles need bunny tails. I prefer a natural tail but most breeders do the chop automatically. I just don't see the point of docking, even though a well docked tail looks nice. Even my human boys have everything they were born with.

If breeders took the tails into consideration there would be more balanced tails than gay ones bred, right? Cosmetic amputation? It sounds like sometning out of a science fiction thriller. I understand taking dewclaws off though, at least the floppy ones. It sure makes it easier to groom a poodle without those things in the way, but Im sure we'd get used to grooming around them if that was the norm.

I called animal services on someone today because they cropped their 4 month old pit's ears themselves with kitchen shears. Animal controll told me that was legal. Im apalled because that is down right cruel. It's animal abuse worse than most Ive heard of. The poor puppy's ears are GONE, he only has bloody holes on each side of his head. No wonder pitts have a reputation of turning on their owners, I would too! Ive seen pups wake up at the vet office after the procedure and they are in pain. At least the pups at a vet office are put under and are on pain meds. It boggles my mind how someone could do that to something they are supposed to love.

Docking tails is rather minor compared to cropping in my book. Pups rarely do more than squeek when it was done, the few times Ive seen it. Still, I love natural tails and wish poodles did well in the ring with their entire tail intact.


----------



## Fluffyspoos

Mercury's Mom said:


> I understand taking dewclaws off though, at least the floppy ones. It sure makes it easier to groom a poodle without those things in the way, but Im sure we'd get used to grooming around them if that was the norm.


I'm a groomer, so I see many breeds, and most don't have their dewclaws removed. Many of these dogs dewclaws grow in a circular pattern, curling back into the paw. Sure, we can groom around them, but normal walking doesn't grind these nails down and many owners, especially owners with long haired breeds, don't notice or take care of nails so it painful for the dog just to trim these nails. Instead of a simple, two minute procedure as a puppy, these dogs deal with overgrown dewclaws often throughout their life.

Also, the other day this couple comes into the shop with their two pits, a puppy and an adult male who's leg is oozing blood ALL over. When they were getting out of their car to go shopping he had jumped over the seat, almost tearing his right dewclaw completely off. It was just hanging there and I refused to touch it, saying that they'd have to take him to a vet (legal reasons) but the owner asked to use some of my quick stop, nail clippers, and vet wrap which I borrowed to him, and he fixed the dog up. They were saying that they were just talking to the vet the other day about getting his claws removed, never thinking it would be a problem until then.

Tails, whatever, but I think the removal of dewclaws should stay.


----------



## Mister

Oh poor dogs! Pitbulls get it the worst.


----------



## Harley_chik

Amen, they are absolutely treated the worst by everyone. If their owners aren't neglecting, abusing or fighting them, politicians are trying to ban (aka kill) them.


----------



## bigredpoodle

Fluffyspoos said:


> I'm a groomer, so I see many breeds, and most don't have their dewclaws removed. Many of these dogs dewclaws grow in a circular pattern, curling back into the paw. Sure, we can groom around them, but normal walking doesn't grind these nails down and many owners, especially owners with long haired breeds, don't notice or take care of nails so it painful for the dog just to trim these nails. Instead of a simple, two minute procedure as a puppy, these dogs deal with overgrown dewclaws often throughout their life.
> 
> Also, the other day this couple comes into the shop with their two pits, a puppy and an adult male who's leg is oozing blood ALL over. When they were getting out of their car to go shopping he had jumped over the seat, almost tearing his right dewclaw completely off. It was just hanging there and I refused to touch it, saying that they'd have to take him to a vet (legal reasons) but the owner asked to use some of my quick stop, nail clippers, and vet wrap which I borrowed to him, and he fixed the dog up. They were saying that they were just talking to the vet the other day about getting his claws removed, never thinking it would be a problem until then.
> 
> Tails, whatever, but I think the removal of dewclaws should stay.



I agree with this man O man I have seen more dew claw injuries that anything else. Spoos are very hadsy and I would think that getting them cught and ripping them would be a huge issue.. I had a setter that the dew always bled when you cut it always.. Using a dremel was not an option, due to the lenght of his feathering I hated them and vowed to remove them from every one of my future dogs...


----------



## gurushell

As opposed as I am to tail docking I totally agree with dew claw removal. It is more an issue of the dogs wellbeing. My sister in laws mini actually chews at hers. I have seen greyhounds who caught them in the pens and its not pretty! Poor dogs really suffer and infection often sets in as it is a hard to keep clean spot and easy for the dog to chew off a bandage!


----------



## Moxie

Harley_chik said:


> Banfield has a horrible reputation for the quality of care they provide. I wouldn't go by what they say in a million years. Being the biggest means they cut more corners and put money above all else IMO. Should we put Walmart in charge of labor laws or McD's in charge of Food Safety?
> 
> Animal abuse (real abuse like dog fighting), pet overpopulation, breed specific legislation and commercial breeding are all problems on an international level. I think it's absurd to pass legislation on docking, while ignoring the real dangers our pets face. I also think it would be absurd for breed clubs or registries to tackle such an issue, while ignoring health issues or mass puppy production. Considering that half of all dogs born in the US don't live to see their second birthday and many of the rest live a life of suffering, a docked tail is the least of their worries.


I just had to say AMEN to this.I couldnt agree with you more.There are way bigger fish and issues to fry than this one.Besides,good luck in the US thinking you are going to change the standard for ALL the docked breeds,it just wont happen anytime soon if at all IMO. AKC says "docked to be in balance with the dog". Sorry,although I respect peoples desire to have a natural tail,it certainly is NOT in balance with the dog or appealing "to the eye" IMO,and good luck in the show ring.Also,at 2-3 days old,you are not cutting bone,the bones have not developed yet,this is why it has to be done so young at this time.


----------



## Taxi

Moxie said:


> <snip>
> 
> AKC says "docked to be in balance with the dog".
> 
> <snip>


...and therein lies the problem. 

Its like getting a hair cut... not in balance trim a little off. :doh:


----------



## Tess

I have always had my vet do this. Each litter, I give him my lecture that each tail is to be measured and we want the last 1/3 removed. He has done this to my satisfaction and I don't mind one bit paying him!!!
I believe it is each breeder's choice to dock tails and remove dews or have someone else do it.


----------



## Savannah

cbrand said:


> The new standard seems to be 1/3 off.... 2/3 on. We measured exactly with the latest litter and the vet used a laser. The tails are perfect. In the previous litter I think we left them too long which exacerbated the already horribly gay tails. Shudder......
> 
> I have seen them cut w/styptic powder, cut with a stitch and done with a laser. I'm not sure that there is a noticeable difference in the end of an adult tail.


As a groomer I've seen a few poodles with big hairless scars at the ends of their tails. Obviously I have no way of knowing if these are home or vet jobs, but I do notice they only seem to happen on the poodles whose tails are much too short. I have one mini who literally has a hole where her tail should go!! I had to grow the hair out on her butt (the previous groomer hadn't bothered) and fabricate a tail with a little hair puff. It's still atrocious, but it's better than nothing.
Personally I feel that tails should never, ever be docked and I wish to heck that Flash had a full tail. He would look so cool with a massive fluffy flag!!


----------



## gurushell

I am so with you but we seem to be a minority. You would love looking at some of the Aussie dogs if you love a long tail! We don't dock here. I could bang on for hours but I jusy was happy to here someone else say no to the chop!


----------



## Savannah

There are a growing number of countries that prohibit tail docking, and I'm all for it. It must be so cool to see all those poodles with their tails!
I groom a cocker spaniel with a full tail-- it's very weird because it's so so so unusual for cockers, but once I got used to it I think she's very pretty. And she sure looks happy wagging that tail!!


----------



## Olive Love

There is almost no reason to dock or crop your dog's ears.


----------



## CiaT

Salukie said:


> I understand some breeders do the tail docking and dewclaw removal themselves. How is it done?
> 
> I've seen it done at the vet's before. Chopped off with clippers or scissors and then sutured shut.
> 
> How do the breeders do it?


This is not an answer as to how they do it, but when I asked my breeder if she would leave my puppy’s tail undocked, she said she breeds to standard so would not, but that she does it an old-fashioned (?) way that causes less trauma or possible nerve damage. She leaves the dew claws.


----------



## Johanna

flyingduster said:


> yup; you can always tell a home job vs a vet job on the tail & dew claws, by the big ugly scar!


I did the tails and dew claws on my dogs for many years - not just poodles, but also on whippets and chihuahuas where a bad job would really show. Proper equipment and knowledge are required. If done correctly at 3 days of age there will be no noticeable scar. I have seen plenty of dogs who have been done by a veterinarian who were very poorly done. Furthermore, most vets dock tails much, much too short on poodles. They also don't seem to realize that when you dock tails you 1) cut between vertebrae, and 2) push the skin back toward the body so there will be plenty to cover the end of the tail after docking.


----------



## Johanna

KPoos said:


> I'm just curious how you determine where to dock a puppy tail? Some tails naturally grow longer than others as the puppy grows and some don't. Harry has a long docked tail. I wish she would have docked it shorter because it would balance his body out better but you can't take it back now. Mia's tail is docked shorter and when I got her thought too short but as she's growing she looks much better because the tail is growing also.


When I dock tails, I hold the puppy's head up and dock the tail proportionately - I suspect it almost always comes out to be removing 1/3. I don't remember ever having a puppy who did not grow at the same rate all over - their tails seemed to retain the same proportion. Or maybe I just know how long to make it from years of experience.


----------



## Johanna

PonkiPoodles said:


> I think that all really depends. I've seen some docked tails that were done by vets and they did a worse job than if the breeder would have just done it themselves using the banding method.
> For a lack of a better word - they screwed up.


I am really opposed to banding - can you imagine having a tight rubber band around your little finger until the end drops off!


----------



## PeggyTheParti

This is a super old thread with many members who are no longer active. I’m going to close it, but feel free to start a new one.


----------

