# Is it ok to breed dogs that are pointed but not finished?



## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I read in another post of a breeder that breeds her dogs that are pointed but not finished. She says that it means they are within the standard anyways (basically, though i am paraphrasing), so they are obviously of good qualities to breed. 

More experienced thoughts on this? Personally i think it is a cop-out and lazy. Fine, so 1 or 2 judges thinks your dog was good (or was the only dog there that day). Is that good enough? Does it truely mean it is ok? On one hand, it is better then not showing your dog at all. I dont know. 

What about breeders that have points on their dogs but stop because they say the dog Hates the grooming/banding, but breeds them still?

I know showing is not the end all and be all of breeders, but i sure like to see that their dogs fit the "standard".


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

well, as you said, showing is not the end all and be all of breeders, so if the dogs are healthy and have proven themselves otherwise (in obedience, agility, SOMETHING), I would say of course it's fine to breed them. 
Some dogs just do not have the "show" personality and while they are great conformation wise, if they don't strut their stuff, they're not going to win, not going to get points. I don't think "my dog doesn't like to be groomed" is a good excuse not to show. 

In my opinion, a dog is fit to breed as long as its been fully health tested, has a great temperament, and has a title on one or both ends of their name.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

I personally would judge this on a case by case basis. I like to see a confirmation title on both parents. It just shows that the breeder cares enough to put the time and money into their dog, as well as that the dog is to standard and of a quality to title. Having said that, I also like to hear how long it took the dog to title. If it took a year and titled point by point that might say something about it... Not every dog that is titled is of a good quality!

Anyway, I would want at least one of the parents to be fully titled. If the other only had points, I would ask why? As I prefer to go to breeders who don't breed full time, I can see if they weren't able to attend as many confirmation shows as they'd like etc. It's personal preference, but I'd rather go to a breeder who doesn't circuit their dog out with a handler to get their championship.

So there would be a lot of variables for me, but breeding a pointed only dog would not be an immediate dealbreaker... If, however, I saw a breeder who routinely gets one or two points on their dogs then gives up and breeds them then I would probably cross them off the list.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Locket said:


> In my opinion, a dog is fit to breed as long as its been fully health tested, has a great temperament, and has a title on one or both ends of their name.


I pretty much agree with this... If the dog was pointed towards a confirmation title, but had some sort of meaningful title at the end of the name as well (more than say just a Rally Novice or Canine Good Citizen) then I would probably at least consider getting a pup from them.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I would ask WHY a dog didn't finish and then let the breeder start talking. If it is because the dog "didn't like the show ring", then ask more questions. What didn't the dog like? How did it behave? Ask leading questions and see if the breeder doesn't offer up information.

I would be very concerned if the reason was temperament, i.e. the dog didn't like to be groomed or the dog was nervous in the ring. I like a Poodle who has nerves of steel. If it is too stressful for a Poodle to have a stranger go over it in public, I don't consider this to be breedable temperament. 

Example: I know a breeder who had a bitch who was a skitzoid in the ring. She couldn't get her finished. She bred her anyway and she produced a litter of puppies with terrible temperaments. My neighbors got one of these puppies (not on my recommendation) and that dog grew up to be highly sharp shy. He eventually attacked a boy in public who had the misfortune of passing my neighbors on the trail (dog was on a leash). 

Now.... if the reason was more structural or if a bitch ruined her show coat and the breeder didn't want to grow it out again, then I might forgive this. I know two local breeders who bred bitches they couldn't finish. One was a huge bitch with an ugly head. She had a lot to recommend her but she looked totally clunky next to the small, stylish bitches who show in our area. I think she is a nice bitch and they bred her to a dog who hopefully will address her faults. The other is a bitch with good breeding who had lots of good parts that just didn't work well together. She too was bred to a very, very nice dog and she has a lovely daughter who is now out showing. 

Finally, all this goes only for bitches. I don't give any pass to a stud dog. There are plenty of fabulous stud dogs out there who are finished and who do have multiple performance titles. Why would you breed to an untitled stud?


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Ive seen this happen more from breeders that have previously sold a puppy to a show home. The dog was mistreated, not socialized etc and ended up back with the breeder later. If the dog turned out to be really nice or could add something to the breeding program, then why not use the dog in the breeding program and let it be a pet over all. 

This is what Ive seen happen and its sad but it does happen. I recently found a breeder I know's Amstaff listed on craigslist. I knew right away it wasnt just any Amstaff, it was a Wild West dog. They listed the dog that day and said if it didnt have a home by 3 pm it was going to the pound because he broke up with his girlfriend and he couldnt keep the dog at his new place. stupid idiot! I of course called the breeder and told him what I seen on craigslist and he called to rescue the pup he bred. Its amazing the way people will just disregard the contract they signed. 

This is not always the curcumstance and I agree if a dog has genetic behavior issue's it should not be bred and altered to ensure that as well.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

My understanding of poodles is that it's a very political breed to show in conformation. If you aren't so and so and don't have so and so in your lines you are going to have a heck of a time finishing on your own. Knew this going into it and don't care if it takes me a long time to finish because I have time and not space for another show poodle so Jasper's all I've got. If he's been tested and someone that has a very nice bitch comes along and wants to breed to him and he's only pointed (most likely going to happen) I would breed to them. It's highly unlikely that that scenario will happen but I'm just saying that naturally I'd stay away from certain types of breeders but I don't think a dog needs to be finished to breed.


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