# Does Size at 3 Weeks Indicate Final Size?



## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

We are getting one of 3 standard girls in a litter of 5. The girl we might be getting is much smaller than the other two girls. The breeder says that this girl will be bigger than a moyan but be a small standard. 1) What does this mean? and 2) Can you actually determine adult size by size at 3 weeks. 

Dad is 25" and Mom is 22.5".

Please, those who know, help with an answer.... Thanks so much.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Not really. We had a smaller girl in our current litters who this week, and five weeks old, has surpassed the next biggest, and I suspect by next week, she will surpass one or two more. With the sizes of your girl's parents, she will likely be on the small side of average.


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

Cherie, thanks for the quick response. So does this mean she would be closer to 19" as a smaller standard or less? The reason I ask is obvious ... the standard is 15" however very few poodles are that small anymore.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

No, it cannot be predicted accurately at that age. Even at 5 months old I don't know if my pup will be mini or moyen.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

It's hard to tell at such a young age, but of her parents are 22.5 and 25", I suspect she would be at least 20 or 21".


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

My Mini was substantially smaller than all her siblings at birth (by at least a couple of ounces in weight and visibly much smaller) and had to be tube-fed for her first couple of days after a complicated delivery, yet she's now at the top of the size range for Minis (15"), the same size as her siblings at 1.5yrs. My breeder said as much despite her small start, and she was right.

So nope, being runty at birth doesn't mean very much.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Usually breeders do temperament testing at 7 weeks and confirmation evaluation at 8 weeks, before deciding which puppy to keep and then match the rest with perspective owners. Does your breeder not do that?


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

Yes, the breeder does that. My concern was that this particular girl is much smaller than its littermates, although she seems also at this early time to have the best tailset and shoulder set and nice angularity in the rear. I am not sure today (I've been around a long, long time) that when someone say a small standard that is means 15-18" or it means 20"-22" since many standards are much taller than the minimum.. With the sire at 25" and the dam at 22.5", I would hope this particular girl would be at least 20" but I just don't know. The breeder reserves first pick so with only two other girls, I thought I would start early.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Marcoislandmom said:


> The breeder says that this girl will be bigger than a moyan but be a small standard. 1) What does this mean? and 2) Can you actually determine adult size by size at 3 weeks.


The moyen or klein poodle is a 4th size that is recognized in Europe, but not recognized by the AKC. According to the Fédération Cynologique Internationale a moyen (or klein) is 35 cm to 45 cm (14 to 18 in). So any poodle over 18 inches would be bigger than a moyen. Although the AKC breed standard says that any poodle over 15 inches is a standard poodle, you almost never see US poodles between 15 and about 21 inches (except for oversized minis that might be slightly over 15 inches). So a poodle that is 19 to 22 inches or even 23 inches could be called a small standard. Since your pups parents are 22.5 and 25 inches, I think it is most likely that your pup will fall in this range.

As others have said, I don't think you can determine adult size at 3 weeks. 

When I was looking for a puppy, I wanted a small standard. My puppy's parents were 21 inches (dam) and 25 inches (sire). I saw the pups for the first time when they were 7 weeks, and I very much wanted one that would become a small adult, like her mom. A friend and poodle breeder went with me to see the pups. Her advice to me was to look for a compact body. She thought that was more important in determining adult size than the actual height of the 7 week old pups. I chose the smallest in the litter, one with a compact body. I was told that there was no way to be sure how big she'd be as an adult, but I am very pleased with the way she has turned out. At almost a year, she is 21 inches and about 35 pounds and gorgeous! I just love this size!


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I have 2 retriever X sisters. We picked out the smallest female, chocolate/tan of the litter. At 3 months of age she was 3lbs smaller than her black/white sister. Now as adults they are both the same height & same weight, their bodies are different one longer leaner, one more square compact. 
With Poodles I can only relay to you a story about a breeder that had a litter of pups, the last pup was more or less a surprise many hours after the last of the group. He was much smaller & didn't thrive the 1st couple days up & died in the owners hand & she gave the pup mouth to snout breathing & the pup came back to life. He was much smaller than his siblings, now as an adult he is taller & larger than the rest. Go, figure. Size is not always the indicator when only weeks old.

I love the smaller Spoo. I have a 22" 37lb rescue & he is as large as I want to go. Esp. with his energy level- high, high, high. Luckily I have 2 retriever X girls that he runs into the gorund with his energy so by evening time all are nice & tuckered out.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

My girl is 22 inches at the shoulder. It is a nice medium size. She is big enough to be a 'big dog', but small enough to fit in my lap (barely- LOL). Moyens are 15-18 inches tall. A smaller standard would be anything from 19-23 inches at the shoulder. Since your girls mama is 22 inches perhaps she will be around the size of her mom, so take a look at her. 

People do comment occasionally on the smaller size of mine (around 36pounds), but not in a negative way (she is way too cute for that ).


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

*4 week old Picture of our potential tiny girl*

Here's a photo of our potential new girl at 4 weeks. You can see she is very petite but a beautiful dark mahogany color. Still wondering since she is soo much smaller than her sisters and brothers, whether she will be 20" plus. 

Leaving Facebook... | Facebook


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Im sorry, but I personally would not get this girl. It looks like she is the runt of the litter. I have personally seen (and known of) several runt puppies who were very poor doing and died young. All had major health issues. I would not personally take that risk. JMO


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Her chest is VERY narrow and her ear set is unbelievably high! She has a preemie look about her.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Hmmm...she does not look like a vigorous, healthy puppy. I think she has some issue. Her eyes are dull and she is so small. I would advise looking at another pup.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Marcosmom, I am sorry people haven't been nice about your maybe puppy.  I know what it is like to want a puppy. It is only that the puppy doesn't look very healthy. Google some pictures of three week old standard puppies and you'll see what I mean. Actually, there are a lot of pictures of healthy red babies here at three weeks old:

http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/18558-dozen-puppies-growing-fast.html

You can see the difference. I hate for someone to get stuck with a sickly puppy when you should be having fun playing with an active, healthy baby. Also, Arreau mentioned it, the puppies ears are SO high on top of her head they likely won't hang down all nice, fluffy and poodly as an adult. 

It isn't that everyone has to have a show dog, far from the truth, but everyone should be able to have a nice representation of a poodle as a pet. I hope you keep looking. 

If you do end up with this girl and I am proved wrong, I sincerely apologize in advance, but don't put a deposit down without looking into her health more. Look at her parents. Do they look like nice standard poodles? 

My poodle is a smaller standard and I like her size, but she is genetically smaller because of her breeding, not because she was a runt.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Her chest is VERY narrow and her ear set is unbelievably high! She has a preemie look about her.


Outwest said it well, everyone means well & it's easy enough to love another sweet puppy. Pls don't be disheartened but Cherie is a breeder & she knows her stuff. Consider carefully & keep us posted pls.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

> Marcosmom, I am sorry people haven't been nice about your maybe puppy.


Who hasnt been nice in this thread? I read through it again and found nothing but nice, honest posts.


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

I have the upmost respect for Cherie and the rest of you in providing your insight. I would not have asked for an opinion if I were not open to it. Thank you. I am going to watch this pup develop before making any decision on her. 

Was is hanging me up on her is that she is incredibly well formed and when I looked at pup's from the same lines, Palmares and Mithral, many, at 3 weeks, they look like her 4-week pictures. Wondering if she was a late fertilization from one of the last breedings. She was born second smallest in the litter, not the smallest. We'll see. 

I very much appreciate the feedback however and will continue to post as she develops. Hopefully I will get some videos of her running around and playing soon. If not, there are other pups. Too old to be fixated on a single one.

Again thanks.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes, she is still very young. Things could change for her in another 3 weeks and she may surprise you! Keep us posted. 

bigpoodleperson, people were nice, but I felt bad saying something negative about a puppy that someone was interested in. The puppy is only a little baby, so it is hard to say anything about such a tiny girl. Marco will be able to tell a lot more about this little girl in a few more weeks, so maybe I jumped the gun a little, but she just looks so scrawny in her picture. Most puppies are kind of tubby looking at her age.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

Outwest, I hear ya' 

When you're newly in  it's not particularly fun to hear anything other than positives about the object of your :love2:'s desire (even when said with the best of intentions.)

MIM, thanks for taking it in stride & as intended :grouphug:


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

*Four Week Old Pictures Continued*

A few of you asked about breeding for this little girl. Here are pictures of Mom, Dad, and links to the little girl with her three sisters, and her stack.

Daddy is from Majestic and is a UKC Grand Champion for conformance as well as hold several other titles
Mom is from Palmares and is also a UKC Grand Champion and also holds several other titles.

Baby with her sisters

Amazing animal pictures on Webshots


Baby in a stack

Amazing animal pictures on Webshots


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

In the first photo, yours is the one in the middle, correct? There is something very peculiar about that puppy, even in the stacked photo.


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

Yes, she is the one in the middle. Note that even the paws are smaller than her sisters. That's why I thought she was younger (conceived from the third breeding rather than the first or second).


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