# Post-covid pandemic visits to breeders



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

It's still a flag, but with some caveats _if truly due to covid concerns_. There are also considerations for bringing dog-specific illnesses to the visit but there are also ways to manage all of this and allow home visits.

CKC and Poodle Club of Canada may differ from what I'm used to in the US so far as requirements for breeders on the "business" side of things, but non-refundable deposits are pretty common, covid notwithstanding. When the deposit is asked for and if it's transferrable to a next litter is a different story.

Whether pups are on the ground or no, deposits should only be asked for and given after you and the breeder have gone over what you want/need and you both agree, you both feel comfortable with each other and have gone over the terms of the contract or what the deposit entitles you to.

There seem to be two main ways that breeders handle wait lists and deposits.

To some breeders the two are essentially the same. The new family and the breeder have had back and forth communications, vetted each other (an application also may or may not be required), and there is agreement between all parties. The good faith deposit is placed to hold a suitable puppy but there may not yet be puppies on the ground.

The other way is to follow the same procedures listed above but the waitlist and deposit are treated separately. The waitlist is the breeders way of keeping track of who wants what in a puppy, who's ready for a puppy, but the deposit is not required until puppies are on the ground.

There is a third way that can happen and that's serendipity. Possibly the new family and breeder have already gone thru this process with a prior dog and both feel comfortable with each other. Possibly the new family and breeder are introduced by someone known to each other so they feel comfortable. Waitlists and deposits may not figure in at all, puppies may be on the ground or planned, but the vetting either has been done before or is being vouched for.

Pros and cons to each way but that is between the breeder and the new family.

These are some examples of how a quality breeder handles deposits:

Example A

"Please be as thorough as possible when answering. Your answers help me choose which pup in the litter will be best suited to you and your family. Complete answers go a long way towards matching the best pups for the best families. Filling out the application is not a guarantee of approval. I require a $500 deposit to hold a puppy for approved families. If a litter does not result from a breeding then I will refund your deposit. Your deposit is not refundable in the event that you change your mind, purchase a pup from another breeder, etc. If you wish to be added to my waiting list complete the puppy application. Once approved you may send me a $500 deposit. Families who have been approved and send deposits are given first priority."

Example B

"Step 2: Waiting List

The "waiting list" is a document filled with dozens of potential families for our future puppies. They range in colour preferences, family dynamics, time frames for bringing home a puppy, etc. When we are planning a litter, I will go through the waiting list and contact one family at a time until I find a few homes that are prepared for a new puppy. This is not necessarily a "first come, first serve" basis, but suitable families who have been waiting for 1 year will take priority over suitable families who have been waiting for 3 weeks. The order in which potential owners are contacted entirely depends on what we are expecting in the litter. If the parents of the litter are high energy and known for having more rambunctious puppies, we will be contacting more active and experienced homes. If the parents are mellow and easy-going dogs, we might contact the quieter, less active dog owners on our list.

Step 3: Litter Announcements

Litter announcements are posted on our social media pages, "Puppies" page of our website, and emailed to potential puppy owners (previously contacted and corresponded with before the litter was born). After this announcement, we will maintain contact and provide puppy updates while personalities begin to develop.
Step 4: Matching Puppies to Families

Once the puppies are 4+ weeks old, we will evaluate temperaments and conformation, and decide whether we want to keep back a puppy to show. We typically have input as to which puppy will do best with which family, but the information gathered from 4-6 weeks old will confirm that. We will be able to tell which puppies are shy, high-drive, patient, etc. When possible, we encourage the potential owners to meet the puppy/puppies of our recommendation to ensure it will be a good fit.

Step 5: The Contract

Before taking reservations on any puppies, each potential owner will be emailed a copy of our contract of sale. This document outlines our requirements for spaying/neutering, taking proper care of the dog, and an agreement that the dog will be returned to us if the owners can no longer keep him/her. This contract is to ensure that each party knows their responsibilities, and that the dog will be cared for during their entire life. Any questions or concerns regarding the contract should be addressed before the puppy is reserved.
Step 6: Reservation Fees (Deposits)

A non-refundable fee of $500 is required to reserve a puppy, and goes towards the final purchase price. This secures the puppy to their family until pick-up day. We will then arrange a date and time for pick-up. This is the time to start purchasing supplies, puppy-proofing your household, and brushing up on dog training and behaviour."



Features in common:

There is a planned litter. Each parent has been health tested and then matched to each other for (hopefully) specific results in the litter such as temperament and drive.

The deposit is a good faith guarantee on both sides. The first states that the deposit will be refunded if there is no pregnancy and therefore no puppies. It would not be refunded because the buyer simply changed their mind.

The second breeder requires the non refundable deposit but not til after the puppies are on the ground.

With these types of breeders, they've not only made an investment in all their dogs, they've made an investment in you, the buyer who they've also carefully selected.


Examples of breeders that I'd run from:


Buyer understands that a deposit of $500.00 is required to place a puppy on hold.
Buyer understands the deposit is non-refundable.
Puppy must be paid in full before it will be released or shipped to the Buyer. If payment on the puppy has not been made in full by the
shipping date, or the set receiving date, the Buyer will then forfeit his/her deposit, and any claims on the puppy.
Payment can be made by:
Personal checks are accepted for payment of a puppy. Buyer understands that by paying with a personal check, the puppy will not be released or shipped until the check has cleared the bank.
Paypal, Visa, Mastercard, Discover, or American Express. These payment options will incur an extra 3.5% to cover the bank transaction fee charged by the credit card company (PAYPAL) or independent payment processor. Please contact seller with appropriate information."
"Deposits:
WE DO NOT ACCEPT DEPOSITS ON ANY PUPPY 6 WEEKS OLD OR OLDER. AT 6 WEEKS OLD ONLY PAYMENTS IN FULL WILL BE ACCEPTED. ALL PUPPIES MUST BE PAID FOR IN FULL ON OR BEFORE THE DAY THE PUPPY TURN 6 WEEKS OLD TO HOLD THEM UNTIL THEY ARE 8 WEEKS OLD AND THEY ARE PICKED UP, SHIPPED OR DELIVERED.
When you have decided to purchase your new Standard Poodle puppy from __, prior to the date the puppy turns 6 weeks old you will need to pay:
• $250.00 non-refundable deposit but transferable for Limited Registration on our male or female pups
• $500.00 or $1000.00 for Unlimited Registration on our male or female pups (The $1000.00 deposit price is for our ____)
• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account. Send your PayPal payments to ____
• Fill out the contract. Please follow the directions carefully at the top of the contract.
Payment of Balance and Payment in Full:
• If you have put a deposit down on a puppy, PAYMENT IN FULL , minus the deposit amount, and including any shipping charges, is due on or before the day your puppy turns 6 weeks old. If we are delivering your puppy to you in person, you will be required to pay the delivery fee in cash when the puppy exchanges hands. If you are using our flight nanny services all fee must be paid in advance except the $250 flight nanny fee that will be paid in cash directly to the flight nanny.
• If you are purchasing a PUPPY that is 6 weeks old or older and have not previously put down a deposit, PAYMENT IN FULL is required at the time of the commitment to purchase.
• WE DO NOT ACCEPT CHECKS FOR BALANCES OR PAYMENTS IN FULL.
• If you are visiting ___ and picking out, paying for and taking home a puppy all in the same day we only accept Cash or Credit/Debit Card.
• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account.
• Send your PayPal payments to __
• If you are purchasing a LIMITED REGISTRATION PUPPY, fill out the Limited contract
If you are purchasing an UNLIMITED REGISTRATION PUPPY, fill out Unlimited contract"


This all sounds reasonable until you see what is and isn't mentioned. What is mentioned: plenty of talk about payment and nothing else.

No talk of waitlist, no talk of alternatives, no talk of planned litters, planned results, puppies matched to owners needs...just send the money. 

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Here's some Canadian resources, and, have you considered looking over the border? If you're not far from Minnesota, there are at least 5 or 6 quality, conscientious miniature poodle breeders there. You'll finf the Canadian resources just after the US states.

This resource contains the recommended health testing by the PCA. I believe that the PCC has these or similar recommendations. Proper health testing of the breeding pairs is a good sign that the breeder is looking beyond profit to the future of the breed. 

(8) 🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩 | Poodle Forum


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Although I'm sure there are exceptions, I think it may be a convenient excuse for poor/lesser quality breeders to use. Are you dealing with quality breeders? It's OK to name them if you wish. It's quite common and within the rules of PF.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Leo-poodles said:


> My experience is that many breeders are taking reservation deposits that are non-refundable before a puppy is born or old enough to visit. Is this the new normal post pandemic?


If you think of your search as being—first and foremost—a search for a good, ethical breeder with a happy, healthy dam and sire, and breeding goals that suit your needs (e.g. a dog for companionship vs. agility), then yes, this is normal and entirely unrelated to the pandemic.

One of the breeders I currently have my eye on won’t proceed with a pairing until potential pups are spoken for. This seems common among breeders who are committed to preserving the breed we love and are more interested in ensuring good health and temperament than marketing a litter of puppies/making a quick buck.

That said, I wouldn’t want my deposit getting tied up indefinitely. So that’s something I’d speak to the breeder about. I’d want to know that if a good puppy match doesn’t come available in X number of months, my deposit would be refunded.


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## Leo-poodles (10 mo ago)

Thank you @Rose n Poos and @94Magna_Tom for your insights and experience! Very helpful for reframing how I'm thinking of my search 😊


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I agree the contract should set clear expectations around how long the deposit will be held and under what circumstances it will be returned. I know some breeders will just roll the deposit over onto the next litter coming out of their kennel. I personally am not comfortable with that. If I put my deposit down expecting a cream or silver puppy out of two 23 inch 45 pound parents, I'm not going to be pleased to be switched to an all black litter out of two 65 pound parents.


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