# Are reds and apricots unstable (temperaments)



## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

there is no genentic link between color and temperament.

black and white poodles have been 'in vogue' longer than other colors, so breeders have had decades to work on breeding good temperament into their dogs. With other colors (red, apricot, and more recently partis, brindles, sables, etc) color can be more important than temperament. It shouldn't be, but with shady breeders, it can be. 

If you can find a reputable and ethical breeder with a program that fits what you're looking for in a dog, and they happen to have apricot dogs, I'm quite sure that their dogs will have good temperaments. A good breeder will produce good dogs, regardless of color.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

Pericles is red, and is very constant, predictable, stable, loving, entertaining, people-oriented, dog-friendly. 

Good breeders working carefully for good matches for their dogs, will not produce (and will not pass on) unstable dogs.

Pericles is Arreau's My Heart Will Go On.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with all the above posters have said and will add that I know two very nice apricot minis, one I co own with my mom and the other is a very nice working performance dog who belongs to friends.


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## forest (Jul 10, 2017)

Hmm. Even though there are two posters here with personal experience, there has to be a reason you keep hearing what you're hearing. I mean, im sure the people aren't just making it up.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

forest, really? People never make stuff up? I think this is a matter of anecdote gaining a life of its own through some variation of the telephone game we played when we we kids. Repeating something through a chain of folks often distorts the message and gives it new life it doesn't deserve. I would want to see evidence in the form of controlled study that showed a genetic link between color and behavior.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Merlin is an apricot toy with severe fear/anxiety issues, but you can't blame it on his color or genetics. He was just never properly socialized. The rest of his siblings, mother and father are very good tempered, confident dogs.

If I were you I would concentrate on finding a good breeder who socializes her dogs well. That's what matters the most. Color has nothing to do with it.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I can only give you anecdotal evidence that sometimes the stereotypes are true and sometimes not 

*Every white/cream spoo I've met has had a lovely temperament
*Frosty's friend is a red male spoo from a top breeder and he has an excellent temperament
*I met a blue male spoo from a mediocre breeder and it had an unstable, aggressive temperament


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I'm with Lily. Can we get a study in a peer reviewed journal genetically linking poodle coat color and behavior? Until then, it's opinion. Noelle is red. Noelle is training to be a service dog. She has a rock solid temperament. Noelle is calm enough to lie down and stay in the middle of a busy mall with people walking past her. She is stable enough that when a small child lunged and grabbed her roughly, her first instinct was to get away and look to me for help, not bite the child.

If you want a red or an apricot and know a breeder who is doing health testing, meet the dogs. Meet her adult poodles. Because chances are if the parents are delightful their puppies have potential. When you get a puppy you are getting potential. Genetics brings you part of the way, but training and devotion will get you where you need to go.

Let go of the color myths, because that's just what they are myths.


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## Beautiful Blue (Apr 24, 2017)

Coldbrew said:


> there is no genentic link between color and temperament.
> 
> black and white poodles have been 'in vogue' longer than other colors, so breeders have had decades to work on breeding good temperament into their dogs. With other colors (red, apricot, and more recently partis, brindles, sables, etc) color can be more important than temperament. It shouldn't be, but with shady breeders, it can be.
> 
> If you can find a reputable and ethical breeder with a program that fits what you're looking for in a dog, and they happen to have apricot dogs, I'm quite sure that their dogs will have good temperaments. A good breeder will produce good dogs, regardless of color.


This. ^

I will be 70 years old this summer. I am old enough to remember the wild popularity of poodles in the 1950's, 1960's and 70's. "Travels With Charlie" and other books and movies, the iconic poodle skirt, pop culture was heavy with anything poodle! 

With that popularity came demand. With demand came excessive and irresponsible breeding. With such breeding came problems. Big problems.

I was of the opinion 30 years ago let's say...that poodles were mean; that they could be snappy and unpredictable. A friend told me her grandma had had one when friend was a child and she was afraid to visit grandma because of the dog.

But watching Westminster back in the early 90's I heard a judge say that Poodles have once again become the wonderful dogs they should be. He referred to the years of indiscriminate producing and gave great credit to breeders and efforts that had brought the dog back...to the point I remember he said as far as health, temperament, conformation...there have never been better poodles that what there are now (then). 

We got our first poodle in 2003.

I only mention this to give a little perspective. Whenever anything becomes popular and makes money - be it movie genres, toys, restaurants - you know that all kinds of folks "jump on the bandwagon" to make a quick buck while they can.

Did the traditional poodle colors of black, white, and gray, start to seem a little boring? The litter of our first poodle was comprised of 7 black (some blue?) and 2 little browns. All other things being equal - I chose the brown...I wanted something "different". She kept the other brown for future breeding because if seemed "popular"

Within a few years I began seeing the growth in popularity of browns, reds, partis. 

So please bear these things in mind. Reputable and ethical breeder is what you want, with proven results and references for you to contact.

btw, our WONDERFUL apricot...belongs to my granddaughter. Is now a healthy and still fabulous 11 years old. Great personality!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Reds and Apricots are emotionally unstable???

Not true with Poodles... maybe with women.


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## forest (Jul 10, 2017)

*Are reds and apricots unstable (temperaments)sà*

Yes. You all are doing the exact thing you're critiquing. 

Just as you believe what you're saying, I'm sure the other people believe what they are saying. 

This isnt about being politically correct and saying the "right" thing. 

There may not be a peer reviewed journal saying there is a connection but there isn't one saying there isn't either. 

So, in the real world, some say no. Some say yes. 

I would conclude that research is needed. Meet the parents of any potential puppy. Ask the breeder questions. Etc 

Stay positive. 

?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Not a genetic link per se, but temperament is inherited and runs in lines as is/does color. So in that way, there can be tendencies within colors. I would take the combination of temperament of the parents and the rearing done by the breeder and your socialization plan to be your biggest predictor of temperament


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## forest (Jul 10, 2017)

Great point, Millie. Your personal handling of the puppy/dog means a lot / is a significant indicator of how the dog will behave.


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## Beautiful Blue (Apr 24, 2017)

Mish17
Take it to that next step in "due diligence" and actually contact references provided by the breeder. And, better yet, any owners of the breeder's dogs that you know on your own. And do get the name and number of their vet and speak with them.

Ask these questions - no matter what the color you end up choosing.

Did the breeder provide a puppy that was a good match for you and your family?

Were there any unexpected problems with your puppy?

What is the temperament of your puppy that you purchased?

Have you had any health issues with your puppy?

Would you purchase another puppy from your breeder?

Would you recommend this breeder to your friends and family?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Countryboy said:


> Reds and Apricots are emotionally unstable???
> 
> Not true with Poodles... maybe with women.


Countryboy -- I clicked the Thanks button on your post because you made me laugh!!! But what you say is NOT TRUE. Two red headed women in my family who are just lovely lovely lovely beyond description, and certainly not unstable. 

But I'm still laughing. :smile:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

forest said:


> Great point, Millie. Your personal handling of the puppy/dog means a lot / is a significant indicator of how the dog will behave.


Genetics are most important of course, and are inherited along with color, but yep! Next most important is that.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

peppersb said:


> Countryboy -- I clicked the Thanks button on your post because you made me laugh!!! But what you say is NOT TRUE. Two red headed women in my family who are just lovely lovely lovely beyond description, and certainly not unstable.
> 
> But I'm still laughing. :smile:


I couldn't help but laugh really hard at Countryboy's comment either, even if I am a red head myself. I think I am stable - though the house is full of red-headed people and red/apricot-looking-furred dogs, so maybe we are all nuts and don't know the difference.....LOL


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

galofpink said:


> I couldn't help but laugh really hard at Countryboy's comment either, even if I am a red head myself. I think I am stable - though the house is full of red-headed people and red/apricot-looking-furred dogs, so maybe we are all nuts and don't know the difference.....LOL



CB was funny, but galofpink this is really really funny.


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## rj16 (Jan 30, 2017)

Galofpink and CB, you have me laughing so hard!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am the breeder of Marialydia's boy Pericles. I breed mostly reds and apricots. My Mom began breeding under the Cherod prefix in 1962 when I was between six and seven. Because of this I have lived with every solid colour that there is. I can tell you, that if only stable parents are bred, and a puppy is reared right in it's breeder's environment, and is given the same parameters regardless of colour, a Poodle is a Poodle is a Poodle. Within a litter some puppies are more assertive, some more laid back, some middle of the road, but that is the same of all colours. My light apricot Pearl has made every Poodle hater she has ever encountered fall in love. She is the easiest, sweetest bitch I have ever known.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am the breeder of Marialydia's boy Pericles. I breed mostly reds and apricots. My Mom began breeding under the Cherod prefix in 1962 when I was between six and seven. Because of this I have lived with every solid colour that there is. I can tell you, that if only stable parents are bred, and a puppy is reared right in it's breeder's environment, and is given the same parameters regardless of colour, a Poodle is a Poodle is a Poodle. Within a litter some puppies are more assertive, some more laid back, some middle of the road, but that is the same of all colours. My light apricot Pearl has made every Poodle hater she has ever encountered fall in love. She is the easiest, sweetest bitch I have ever known.


Well done! Spoken like a true redhead. 

All we need is NOLA in here defending the colour too.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I have has 5 black, 1white and now 2 red (who have faded out) all have been raised the same by me and all have more or less same personalities. Loving sweet, well trained and easy to train. The good about the light ones easier to see when grooming, I have a hard time grooming the black ones. Depending on their build they are all beautiful dogs not matter what color .


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

forest said:


> Hmm. Even though there are two posters here with personal experience, there has to be a reason you keep hearing what you're hearing. I mean, im sure the people aren't just making it up.


Perhaps you missed the most probable explanation for the myth in my post. I'll admit it wasn't worded explicitly. 

People think apricots (or whatever color) are bad tempered because unethical breeders capitalize on the popularity of the color to sell their dogs. In an effort to produce more colorful dogs, they neglect to take temperament into account. They choose a poor tempered apricot stud over a well tempered black stud because the apricot will give them the color they want. With temperament ignored, the ill tempered apricot puppies will grow into dogs that themselves have poor tempers. It's not tied to the color at all, but rather to the breeding practices. 

A similar situation can be seen in the more recent fad colors: phantom, brindle, sable, agouti, and even parti. There are some lovely multicolored poodles but there are so many more that are terribly ugly dogs with 'nice color' as their only redeeming quality.


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## ApricotsRock (Jan 10, 2014)

I have to throw in my two cents...I have had a white, a black and now we have an apricot. Hands down sweetest love bug is the apricot. Then the black and lastly the white. He is also the best bred, however. And different stages of our lives, we had the white in our early 20s (let's go!) and the apricot in our mid 40s (let's nap).


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## Siskojan (Mar 13, 2011)

I have a blue brindle and a black but it was the sweetest apricot girl you could ever hope to meet who changed my mind about poodles 10 years ago.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

*Color and temperament*

I think there is some relationship between color and temperament. In a litter of black and brown spoos the blacks are the "solid citizens" and the browns tend to be a bit silly. Whites tend to be more active than blacks. Apricots and browns tend to be very "soft". Of course, these are generalizations. Individual temperaments vary across a wide range.

While I mostly bred blacks, we did get other colors from one of our dogs.


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## PixieSis (Aug 18, 2015)

I have had two apricots and two reds and all of them have been wonderful pets. They all have their unique personalities but none have been "crazy"!!!!


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## forest (Jul 10, 2017)

CharismaticMillie said:


> forest said:
> 
> 
> > Great point, Millie. Your personal handling of the puppy/dog means a lot / is a significant indicator of how the dog will behave.
> ...


I disagree. Conditioning/handling/environment is more important. 

Actually, there are multiple case studies and literally thousands of individual cases that show this.


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## Red lippy mel (Mar 1, 2017)

I understand within some dog breeds colour is definitive of temperament. For example: solid red pure breed cocker spaniels can have "fits of rage" syndrome. A beautiful well behaved cocker can in an instant have a fit. They can and do lash out, biting attacking anyone or thing in sight. It's a true mental blackout-you can't snap them out of it. 
Once it's over the dog returns to a completely normal state. 
Many believe as with human epilepsy the dog doesn't remember or realise they have had a fit or realise they have lashed out or hurt/harmed anyone/thing. 
But from what I understand this was only a red cocker spaniel trait. 
And that being said, my brother and his family rescued two solid red English cockers from a puppy farm and even though they are still a work in progress they have never in two years displayed any fits of rage. Thank goodness!!
Inherited traits aside-I believe animals are like children. You train them in their youth to be the human/animal you want as an adult. 
Taking into account their individual personalities and tailoring training to suit.


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## Beautiful Blue (Apr 24, 2017)

"I believe animals are like children. You train them in their youth to be the human/animal you want as an adult. 
Taking into account their individual personalities and tailoring training to suit.[/QUOTE]

Ahh, would that it were so... and so simple. We loving parents would have it made in the shade.

I was just talking to my grandson about similar...and how the famous Minnesota Twin Family Study (of identical and fraternal twins separated at birth) highlighted the undeniable affect of genetic makeup.


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## blueroan (Dec 28, 2015)

This is like the "chestnut mare" sydrome lol!!!! A lot of people think chestnut mares are totally unstable but I think it has more to do with it being a MARE, not the colour. People tend to forget that we don't spay mares so we have the hormones to deal with...in a 1000+lb animal...eek!!

Anyway, back to the poodles...I have had 2 now, an apricot and a fiery red. The apricot boy was so loving and sweet. My current red girl is wonderful to be around. She is shy outside, mainly because she missed out on socialization but once she gets to know you, she is the friendliest, silliest thing around. Love my redheads!!


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## Beautiful Blue (Apr 24, 2017)

And I may be wrong, but haven't "apricot" poodles been around
for ages !? Well-bred, and for the right reasons, for many generations.

It is the red that is a more recent development. And by recent, I mean 30 years ! LOL


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

Red lippy mel said:


> I understand within some dog breeds colour is definitive of temperament. For example: solid red pure breed cocker spaniels can have "fits of rage" syndrome. A beautiful well behaved cocker can in an instant have a fit. They can and do lash out, biting attacking anyone or thing in sight. It's a true mental blackout-you can't snap them out of it.
> Once it's over the dog returns to a completely normal state.
> Many believe as with human epilepsy the dog doesn't remember or realise they have had a fit or realise they have lashed out or hurt/harmed anyone/thing.
> But from what I understand this was only a red cocker spaniel trait.
> ...


This link indicates that there may be an association of "rage syndrome" with golden and red cockers, but all colours may experience it. 
CSC/Cocker Questions/Rage Syndrome

Here's a more general look at "rage syndrome", indicating multiple breeds may be predisposed: https://www.doglistener.co.uk/aggression/cocker_rage.shtml

Springers are one breed that can also experience "rage syndrome", which has been coined "springer rage". We had a field line springer growing up; us kids could do anything to that dog but he wouldn't fight back and he protected us kids fiercely. One day my mom went to give him a heartworm (or something) pill in a hot dog. He all of a sudden started snapping and biting and barking and growling and basically backed her into a corner. She called the vet to come to the house and put him down right away. He was "possessed " and she couldn't get him to calm. Springer rage? Actually no, when the vet was returning his medical file to my mom, he took a quick look through it. Brandon had gotten a stick lodged in his eye socket a couple (few?) years prior (eye was not damaged and the stick stopped right before it hit his brain), so they had a set of xrays. The vet found a small brain tumor (easily miss-able if you were worried about getting a stick out of a poor dogs head), and reasoned that it had finally grown big enough to hit the optic nerve (cause delusions) and hit something else to cause the aggression. Without that xray though, that would have went down as "springer rage". Interesting thing with "springer rage" it is (almost?) always reported in show/conformation lines, not field lines. So what has been bred into show lines or bred out to make it more prevalent? Or is it that field lines are generally working dogs that have been raised with a purpose that allows them to be more temperamentally stable? No clue. But being a field spaniel is not the cause for lack of rage, it is the genetics thatare behind that classification of "field" that are actually producing the lack of rage. Apply the same thought process to colour. Note a lot of poor breeding occured when cockers became popular for a while which meant a lot of subpar animals were produced just to make money. Those were trendy colours, which would make the trendy coloured pets poorer caliber and lead people to think that those trendy colours had poor temperaments (like many other breeds).

Either way you can make some assumptions that colour causes certain things. I personally think a puppy is a blank slate and that the environmental factors you expose it to will be more important for temperament determination than anything such as colour (causation). However, colour may have a correlation (not causation) with temperment traits given a certain genetic pool will be related to that colour. Important to remember that just because there is a relationship (or correlation) between two factors it doesn't mean that one factor actually causes the other.


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