# How do you teach pups to play together without play biting?



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

These pups are litter mates, right? Well that is just how litter mates play for the most part. It should be how they learn to give inhibited bites and this learning should already be solid not something where they are drawing blood. If you can make a video that may help us see where the triggers are that take it too high. My poodles play bitey face with each other every day, but nobody ever gets hurt.

I would also suggest not having your kids in the yard while the puppies are rough housing. In fact it may well be that the combination of running kids and inexperienced puppies is what makes it too crazy. It is important that your human youngsters be tutored in training the puppies to be able to settle, to respect personal space and to understand that all people no matter how small or tall can control dogs, but that no dog can control or intrude on the personal space of any person except on invitation and that the person gets to decide when it ends.


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> These pups are litter mates, right? Well that is just how litter mates play for the most part. It should be how they learn to give inhibited bites and this learning should already be solid not something where they are drawing blood. If you can make a video that may help us see where the triggers are that take it too high. My poodles play bitey face with each other every day, but nobody ever gets hurt.
> 
> I would also suggest not having your kids in the yard while the puppies are rough housing. In fact it may well be that the combination of running kids and inexperienced puppies is what makes it too crazy. It is important that your human youngsters be tutored in training the puppies to be able to settle, to respect personal space and to understand that all people no matter how small or tall can control dogs, but that no dog can control or intrude on the personal space of any person except on invitation and that the person gets to decide when it ends.


Yes, they are littermates. It was actually kind of a blessing that one of my sons got bitten because he loves to stir the dogs up and loves to be part of the chaos when the puppies get overstimulated. I've lectured, scolded, put him in time out, but after that bite, he finally cares. I think the pups may have had the bite inhibition down initially but playing just with each other who tolerate the biting, they get rougher and rougher, also playing when they are overstimulated adds to it. I'll try to catch a video.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oh dear. I wonder if having them play with some well-mannered dogs might help? I suspect they'd learn quite quickly what's acceptable and what's not. 

People here are going to get so sick of hearing me say this, but.....have you read Ian Dunbar's "Before And After Getting Your Puppy"? He covers bite inhibition quite thoroughly.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Thinking about this some more....
My puppies have never been allowed to play unsupervised. I've always thought it important to be there to "referee" — to enforce very short breaks every few minutes, make sure everyone's playing fair, watch for any signs of "spinning out" (which happen often at that age, when the pup gets tired and loses all sense). 

That's probably the easiest change you could make right now: No more unsupervised play. They should never be allowed to continue in an overstimulated state.


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Oh dear. I wonder if having them play with some well-mannered dogs might help? I suspect they'd learn quite quickly what's acceptable and what's not.
> 
> People here are going to get so sick of hearing me say this, but.....have you read Ian Dunbar's "Before And After Getting Your Puppy"? He covers bite inhibition quite thoroughly.


I just downloaded it and started reading about bite inhibition. They still have their puppy teeth so it sounds like I have a little more time to work with them! I've been discouraging mouthing people, but I guess I need to allow some of that right now so I can teach them that it hurts.


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

I agree. 


PeggyTheParti said:


> Thinking about this some more....
> My puppies have never been allowed to play unsupervised. I've always thought it important to be there to "referee" — to enforce very short breaks every few minutes, make sure everyone's playing fair, watch for any signs of "spinning out" (which happen often at that age, when the pup gets tired and loses all sense).
> 
> That's probably the easiest change you could make right now: No more unsupervised play. They should never be allowed to continue in an overstimulated state.


I agree with no more unsupervised play. I can't get anything done because they require constant supervision! It's like having toddlers again! And newborns, because one of them wakes up every three hours to go out.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Schmath said:


> I agree.
> 
> I agree with no more unsupervised play. I can't get anything done because they require constant supervision! It's like having toddlers again! And newborns, because one of them wakes up every three hours to go out.


It's a rough time, absolutely. I can relate and I only had one puppy to wrangle! And no kids! The owner of one of Peggy's littermates has two young children and feels her spoo is even more challenging than a toddler. 

I think separate indoor exercise pens would be life savers for you, each attached to a crate. At almost 8 months, Peggy's getting more freedom. But during the puppy days it was: x-pen, tethered to me or to a fixed carabiner with a chew toy, crated for sleep, or watched like a hawk while dragging a light leash. No exceptions. 

Sounds stressful, but it actually reduces stress in the long run. Puppy learns clear boundaries (including how to settle), and is given no opportunity to rehearse bad habits or even really make any mistakes at all.

I know this could still change as we navigate adolescence, but Peggy, for example, has never chewed on the furniture or destroyed anything of value. I credit this wholly to her exercise pen. 

We use this one: Frisco Dog Exercise Pen with Step-Through Door, Black, 36-in - Chewy.com


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Actually I just realized I missed something important in your original posting which is your question about mouthing (which is different from biting). We have trained our dogs to be mouthy and to accept having our hands in their mouths. It is super useful to be able to safely be able to have your hands in your dogs mouths to check for dental issues, do dental care, to take away forbidden objects and to give medications. To sort of comprehensively exlain some of that, here is Dr. Dunbar himself. Teaching Bite Inhibition


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I agree with allowing ONLY gentle mouthing on humans so they can continue to learn how to regulate their bite. Only soft mouthing works to get you to play with them. The slightest bit too much, makes you walk away and end the game.

As far as the two puppies playing together, I would just leave them play. I would not want to prevent them from play biting for many reasons. They'll figure it out. One will at some point yelp if it hurts and will ask for a time out, which the other one will likely "respect." (they usually do) They'll work it out as their bite inhibition or regulation gets more sophisticated, which it will. I raised two same aged puppies and they figure out their own system. I would avoid putting a muzzle on them. That could open a whole other can of worms.

I would, however, discourage your son from getting them overly stimulated and being in the middle of them...not a great idea.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I also would tend to let puppies play as long as they are supervised (I agree on separate x pens when not supervised) and only stop them if you think one of them is not enjoying it. If you think this is the case, you can restrain the "aggressor" and see if the more submissive pup comes back and asks him/her for more play. But I would also make sure they get exposure to older, well balanced and behaved dogs who can teach them that not every dog wants to engage in that play.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Bite inhibition is a skill that puppies need to practice in order to master. It's no different from a little human needing to practice throwing a ball in order get perfect aim. Their bodies are changing and growing in strength. Sometimes they make a mistake. The puppy bites too hard. The kid beans another kid with the ball. It's part of learning. They won't master the skills if you swathe them in bubble wrap and put them on a shelf.

I do think you are right that your kids and the pups might be spinning each other up to the point where everyone's brain turns off. Self control is also a lesson practiced in play, both for humans and puppies. 

I would not use a muzzle at this age, because it will warp and distort the lesson. The puppies need to learn an appropriate response to provocation. The kids need to learn the consequences of behaving thoughtlessly. It sounds like both pups and kid got a lesson when you son got bitten. I expect your son responded by pushing the pups away while retreating to inspect the bite for at least a few moments. Your son learned that puppies bite hard when you aren't careful. The puppies learned that humans turn boring and anti-social when you bite them. Good things for everyone to learn.

I feel for you when you say it's like having toddlers again. For sure! (Although at least you can lock the puppies in crates when you want to murder them for throwing up on the couch.) Something you might want to do is keep a diary of your progress. Then, when you get discouraged by each new stage, you can look back through it to see how much progress you are actually making.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I think your just allowing them to get over stimulated. My dog is mouthy its how he plays, so are my neighbors poodles, they play the same way. Anytime we see one getting over stimulated we just clap, getting the dogs attention and say enough. Renn and our boxer play, the boxer does not mouth at all and Renn does so I have to watch them and when Renn wants to play mouthy I tell him no bite, then he usually goes back to bouncing. I've never left any of my dogs unsupervised while playing and I think that helps.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Here's an image of Tonka, a mature dog at the time, playing with his buddy Champ, a two year old Cane Corso. Women and their dogs would leave the park, scared of the racket, unable to realize that these two are 'playing'.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Countryboy said:


> Here's an image of Tonka, a mature dog at the time, playing with his buddy Champ, a two year old Cane Corso. Women and their dogs would leave the park, scared of the racket, unable to realize that these two are 'playing'.
> View attachment 463966


Fearsome indeed! The magic is that they can play like this and not draw blood. It's an awesome dance to watch.

I like this short video I saw recently on "the play bow":




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2369820683303936


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Neat video. Watch the lips on some of the dogs, especially the Aussie. Several times you'll see an exaggerated open mouth with the lips relaxed and still covering all the side teeth. Snarky used to make that exact bitey face expression when he was playing.


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

Good news: I've been putting my hands in the dogs' mouths today and they've been very gentle, so I think the bite inhibition is there, but I need to try it when they're hyper. I've also been watching them play and they both seem to enjoy it. When it looked a little rough, I called to them and they stopped and sat and looked at me, then the one that looked like the underdog turned and pounced the other one. So I think it was just a matter of them getting overstimulated the other nights. I've been reading Ian Dunbar's book about raising puppies, and he talks about having them go into a down/stay or settle in the middle of play and then resuming play after a little break. I'll work on teaching them this. They're great at coming when I call in the middle of play because they know there's chicken on the other end. It shouldn't be too hard to teach them to stop and go down, as long as there are treats!


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Fearsome indeed! The magic is that they can play like this and not draw blood. It's an awesome dance to watch.
> 
> I like this short video I saw recently on "the play bow":
> 
> ...


This is a great video!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Sounds like you're on the right track! Hooray! Good puppies. 

I know it can be exhausting, so pop in any time you need to vent


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Schmath said:


> Good news: I've been putting my hands in the dogs' mouths today and they've been very gentle, so I think the bite inhibition is there, but I need to try it when they're hyper. I've also been watching them play and they both seem to enjoy it. When it looked a little rough, I called to them and they stopped and sat and looked at me, then the one that looked like the underdog turned and pounced the other one. So I think it was just a matter of them getting overstimulated the other nights. I've been reading Ian Dunbar's book about raising puppies, and he talks about having them go into a down/stay or settle in the middle of play and then resuming play after a little break. I'll work on teaching them this. They're great at coming when I call in the middle of play because they know there's chicken on the other end. It shouldn't be too hard to teach them to stop and go down, as long as there are treats!


I think you "got it". lol good luck with the pups. I'd really like a 2nd st poodle as a playmate. They really know how to play well with one another as their in the same mindset. Maybe one day Renn isn't quite trained to the point I want but we are getting there. If I do take in a second it will be a rescue, as we have a great rescue local.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

That sounds like a great plan. Things are going fine. That business about drawing blood...probably over stimulation and because they're inexperienced yet and the biting too hard was an accident. I'm sure things will level out just fine with a little more time and practice. Usually the dogs are the best teachers of all to each other when it comes to how they play with each other. They seem to understand their own ways the best.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Schmath said:


> Good news: I've been putting my hands in the dogs' mouths today and they've been very gentle, so I think the bite inhibition is there, but I need to try it when they're hyper. I've also been watching them play and they both seem to enjoy it. When it looked a little rough, I called to them and they stopped and sat and looked at me, then the one that looked like the underdog turned and pounced the other one. So I think it was just a matter of them getting overstimulated the other nights. I've been reading Ian Dunbar's book about raising puppies, and he talks about having them go into a down/stay or settle in the middle of play and then resuming play after a little break. I'll work on teaching them this. They're great at coming when I call in the middle of play because they know there's chicken on the other end. It shouldn't be too hard to teach them to stop and go down, as long as there are treats!


That's great progress. 
Returning to the topic of literate syndrome, I think your tactic of treating to distract them offers the opportunity for another lesson. Some dogs (my Pogo is one) get very over-excited by treats and snap them out of your fingers. This bad habit gets worse when the dog is over excited by play or thinks another dog is going to take his treat. So, your task as the human is to teach your puppies to take each and every treat gently, with a delicate feather touch. This touch requires good bite inhibition and good self discipline. See where I'm going here, lol?

1) Make both puppies sit. Nobody gets offered a treat unless both dogs have their butts on the floor.I
2) Offer one puppy a treat in your fingers. Make sure both puppies keep their butts on the floor. If either puppy breaks, say no, take the treat back and make them both sit again. This helps teach them that spinning each other up results in no treats. It also helps teach them to wait their turn. Rushing mom gets them nothing.
3) Once both pups are sitting pretty again, let pup #1 put his mouth on the treat. If he is very gentle, set the treat in his tongue and let him have it. Give a treat to pup #2, then another to pup # 1, continuing in alternation as long as both are sitting pretty and being gentle.
4) If he lunges, hang onto the treat without moving. This is where it is hard. DO NOT MOVE YOUR HAND. Your instinct is to protect your hand as he lunges. He will likely misjudge the distance and bite harder than he intended if you move your hand. Trust his bite inhibition and don't move. He will mouth your hand, probably harder than you would like, before giving up with a confused look. Wait until he stops and looks at you. Then offer him the treat again. Give it to him if he is gentle this time. 
5) If he can't figure out gentle the second time, stop the lesson. You will just spin him up. Calmly move him into another room or his crate to chill out to a few minutes. (No kids! Chill out is the purpose here.) Move on to pup#2.
6) After a few minutes of working with pup #2 put him away and take pup # 1 back out of his crate. Start over with offering the treat, same as before with no snapping or lunging.


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

My youngest working with Dolly on bite inhibition. They are so gentle with him . They usually just lick when he puts his hands near their mouths (probably because he always has food on his hands.) Although as I was typing this, he just squealed because she nipped him in a game of tug of war. He did the right thing though-squealed and stopped playing. And then he got his umpteenth lecture on not playing tug of war with the pups. (This is not the kid who got bitten the other day and who likes to get the pups riled up.)


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

More good news: Dolly went to her puppy class last night and played gently with the other two puppies there, who were both very small. No biting at all! So I guess she does know how to play without biting! We'll see how Jerry does at his class tonight.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

That's excellent news! I'm enjoying your updates


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Schmath said:


> More good news: Dolly went to her puppy class last night and played gently with the other two puppies there, who were both very small. No biting at all! So I guess she does know how to play without biting! We'll see how Jerry does at his class tonight.


By George, she's got it! Yay! 

I told ya so. Hahaha!


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## Saaanderud (Nov 29, 2018)

cowpony said:


> That's great progress.
> Returning to the topic of literate syndrome, I think your tactic of treating to distract them offers the opportunity for another lesson. Some dogs (my Pogo is one) get very over-excited by treats and snap them out of your fingers. This bad habit gets worse when the dog is over excited by play or thinks another dog is going to take his treat. So, your task as the human is to teach your puppies to take each and every treat gently, with a delicate feather touch. This touch requires good bite inhibition and good self discipline. See where I'm going here, lol?
> 
> 1) Make both puppies sit. Nobody gets offered a treat unless both dogs have their butts on the floor.I
> ...





PeggyTheParti said:


> Thinking about this some more....
> My puppies have never been allowed to play unsupervised. I've always thought it important to be there to "referee" — to enforce very short breaks every few minutes, make sure everyone's playing fair, watch for any signs of "spinning out" (which happen often at that age, when the pup gets tired and loses all sense).
> 
> That's probably the easiest change you could make right now: No more unsupervised play. They should never be allowed to continue in an overstimulated state.


I am having a difficult time with Cody, my 6 month old pup, who doesn't appear to have learned bite inhibition despite playing with Lewis, who is 18 months. They start out doing normal dog play, soon Cody escalates to a grab and hold bite to Lewis's back or neck. Even when Lewis goes on his back, Cody keeps biting. As soon as I see the beginning of escalation, I call Lewis in; and he comes running -- sometimes with Cody hanging on his back. Lewis also had a deep puncture wound on his flank a month ago which the vet said went all the way to the muscle.
Inside after these episodes Lewis will hide under the dining room table, as he did when we first got him. But Cody barks at him and bites his rump and tail to try to get him going. I get Cody away from him as soon as I see it.
Coco the 12 yr old has been our dominant dog for 11 years. And she's been a great leader for our group of dogs: not mean or aggressive. All she does is give "the look," and maybe a low growl and that's it. When she's in a doorway or hallway, the other dogs don't pass. Cody barks and shrieks at her to no avail. 
Sometimes Coco and Cody play for short episodes. But last night it got out of hand, and I had to call Coco in. Cody did let go.
I don't know what to do. Cody doesn't seem to play by the rules, which I understand is rare. I don't want Coco to have be the one to fight it out with him to teach him, but...... He is intact; and per my contract, his health guarantee on elbows and hips is void if he is neutered before 2 years.


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## Saaanderud (Nov 29, 2018)

I forgot to mention that all three dogs are spoos


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I'll say what I said before, which is that I don't believe puppies or adolescents should be playing unsupervised. I know many will disagree, and like to let their young dogs go as long and as hard as they need to burn off energy. But I've been taught to break up play every few minutes for a breather (or at the very first sign of antisocial behaviour). Play should be a beautiful mirror, back and forth, give and take. Anything else gets a big NOPE and a break. And that requires you to be within grabbing distance at all times.

To be honest, after that first puncture, I don't think I'd have them playing together at all right now. But I've rarely had multiple dogs in one household, so I'm not sure if this is something others commonly deal with. My gut says no.


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## Saaanderud (Nov 29, 2018)

Thank you. I agree. We've never had problems with a multiple-dog household before, but this is a totally different animal. I guess I'll call the breeder and see what she says.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

How old was Cody when you brought him home from the breeder? Did he have many littermates?


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## Saaanderud (Nov 29, 2018)

Cody was 7 weeks when I met him and 12 weeks when I took him home. He had 3 litter mates. The breeder said he was very food motivated, the biggest and most dominant from the start. There was a litter of 8 or so a week earlier, and the two litters played together. He was frantically friendly, licking everyone's face. But he was carsick from the start -- hypersalivating until he was wet with his own drool. 
They were raised in the breeder's home. She has one sire and two dams. I met the parents and especially just loved the sire. If I could have bought him, I would have right then. He was laid back and friendly -- came and sat right in front of me, put a paw on my knee and asked to be petted. Cody's litter had just had their Volhard when I saw them. With all the information together, the breeder thought he would be easily trainable, confident with possibility of being dominant, but overall, like his sire in temperament and size. She knew I wanted a dog for service work, and she had trained diabetic alert dogs in the past.
At first Cody played well with Lewis, who is 13 mos older. Lewis played the submissive as well as dominant role in wrestling, and they played tug and open-mouth trash talk that dogs do. They were hilarious. 
But as Cody got older, about 5 months, Cody started to try for dominance -- no more reciprocal roles, and trying to hump him. I wouldn't let him. I had always watched their outdoor play and called Lewis in whenever things got out of hand. Cody wouldn't come when called. As their play morphed into predator/prey behavior, I had to call Lewis in sooner and sooner. 
Coco, our 12 yr old female, has always been our dominant dog. She has kept peace and order among our dogs for 11 years. Even Cody shows her deference. She has put her chin or her paw on his back several times, and he accepted it. He won't pass her in a hall or doorway. They play wrestle a little together outside. Cody won't play tug or try to take her food or toys away. But last night they started their first fight, and I called her in immediately. I won't let Cody be aggressive with her at all.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

In your situation I would consult with a behaviorist.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oh goodness. I'm sorry.  This sounds like a very bad situation for your two older dogs. I would be feeling out of my depth and call on a well-respected behaviourist for guidance.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Ha! Yes, what cowpony said.  Simultaneous posting.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

You say you're calling Lewis in, but what are you doing to teach Cody that the behavior isn't allowed? I don't see anything in your description to suggest that Cody will learn not to do this. He seems to have learned that he can bully Lewis and nothing bad happens. If Coco is truly a leader then she should be correcting Cody when he bullies Lewis. But in reality you want your dogs to know that you are in charge, and that you will not tolerate bullying. Just hoping they'll work it out naturally is really risky. I would, at a minimum, heavily supervise interactions and enforce time-outs at the slightest sign of bullying. You might want to keep a drag leash on Cody so that you can remove him as soon as he misbehaves. I would also consult a behaviorist.


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

Would it be worth neutering him anyway? I might take the null contract at this point, unless the breeder will take him back. I plan to get mine neutered at 6 months because I just don't know what I'd do if they were to produce inbred puppies! I think the behaviorist is a good idea. I want to hire a behaviorist to come watch my dogs play and tell me exactly when it crosses the line and what to do because I'm not great at reading their body language. They're okay right now, but what happens when they go through that horrific adolescent phase I keep hearing about? Anyone have any recommendations for a trainer/behaviorist in Northern Utah?


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Schmath said:


> Would it be worth neutering him anyway? I might take the null contract at this point, unless the breeder will take him back. I plan to get mine neutered at 6 months because I just don't know what I'd do if they were to produce inbred puppies! I think the behaviorist is a good idea. I want to hire a behaviorist to come watch my dogs play and tell me exactly when it crosses the line and what to do because I'm not great at reading their body language. They're okay right now, but what happens when they go through that horrific adolescent phase I keep hearing about? Anyone have any recommendations for a trainer/behaviorist in Northern Utah?


I would not neuter a spoo puppy earlier than 12 months. Definitely talk to the breeder and see what she says. But I would consider that a really last resort sort of thing for a 6 month old large breed dog. To me, it sounds like he is not really behaving all that unusually for an adolescent male who has not learned boundaries. My dog started to play sometimes inappropriately with other adolescents a month ago when he was 9 months. It all depends on how the other dog acts. Sometimes I can tell he's being a bully and I separate them. Other times he may hump a dog initially, but it then initiates a bout of rough play that both dogs clearly really enjoy. Occasionally he will try to hump a dog that does not tolerate it, and then he backs off immediately before I can even intervene. So I do not know that he is all that different than your pup. I would not allow extended play with a dog that he was bent on bullying, because I am in charge of him. I would describe my dog as a 2 (probably with some 3s) on the Volhard scale. He is driven and extremely confident with a stubborn streak. He requires a firmer hand with training than I think most poodles do. I do not think he would be a good fit for the average pet home. I'm curious, do you know the actual score your dog had?


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Another thought, did Cody go through a puppy class? All dogs benefit from a good obedience foundation, but Cody sounds like a dog that really needs structure and boundaries, and training classes are a good way to help develop that leadership and communication with a dog. Not just one course, but multiple courses as he goes through adolescence. I've so far taken three courses with Misha that have really helped us to develop clear expectations and work on patterns of behavior that help him succeed. I don't know where I'd be if I'd tried to do it all on my own.


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