# 1+ Year Old Toy Poodle Snapped out of the blue! WHY?!



## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

My female toy poodle, Teddy, got me and my friend in shock when she just snapped and bit my friend very badly. Here is the back story: My friend is fostering Teddy for me for about three weeks. A week before the fostering started, I brought Teddy over to my friend's place to get her used to the new environment. Teddy was very relaxed and played happily with my friends and their two toddlers. I pretended to leave for 5 minutes just to see how Teddy reacted to my absence. She was unsure at first but did not bark or misbehave. After seeing that Teddy was at ease at this new place and establishing the toilet routine, I moved her stuffs like pen, bed and toys over to help her to settle down.

The first two-days while I was away, Teddy was noted to be slightly upset and "emo-ing" lying on the floor with her head down. When my friend tried to comfort Teddy by petting her head, she started to growl at my friend. Same thing happened when my friend tried to brush Teddy or just wanted to cuddle her. When my friend touched Teddy's bowl after feeding, she growled again. However, when I popped by over the weekend just to check on Teddy, she seemed fine and was relaxed when my friend stroke her. 

Then the shocking thing happened during the third week. My friend was sitting on the floor feeding the two toddlers, Teddy came pestering and tried to get food from my friend. At this time, Teddy had already been fed. Despite giving her the "NO" command, Teddy did not stop pestering and started growling. So my friend pinned Teddy down to the floor and then she just snapped and bit my friend multiple times on both hands that drew blood and punctured the skin. It was really bad and my friend had to go to the emergency to get tetanus shot. I went to visit my friend after work when I heard about the biting incident. My friend said that Teddy seemed guilty after that and hid in one corner until I came to visit. However after I left, Teddy bit my friend's husband again when he tried to hold her.

Visits to the vet did not find any injury on Teddy that might cause her pain or discomfort. My suspicion is that Teddy has separation anxiety issue which escalates her food aggression. The odd thing is, my friend noticed that Teddy sometimes likes to be petted and sometimes does not and she shows her dislike by growling. This erratic behaviour seems a bit bizarre. 

Does anybody know what is causing this unstable demeanor in Teddy and *what can I do to tone down her erratic aggression*? The frequency of growling is getting on a weekly basis and it will be very difficult to get foster for her next time if she does not mellow out.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Ok, first, tell your friend to never, ever pin her to the floor again. That is an old and dangerous wives' tale. It causes nothing but more fear and aggression issues. 

Second, it sounds like she is maybe a little unsure of your friend and therefore nervous. Her growling is a polite (in doggie terms) way of asking for more space, usually because of nervousness - even food guarding is caused by a fear of loosing her food. In her mind, someone is trying to take it away. 

What I would suggest is, when she growls, back up, try to sort out what triggered the growl. Then, figure out a way for your friend to avoid situations that cause the growl. You can work on desensitizing her later when you have her full time again. 

I am also going to strongly suggest that Teddy be crated or otherwise separated from the toddlers as they will have no clue what she's saying with her body language and/or growling. There is no reason to risk injury to them or Teddy. 

Never, ever correct her for growling or you will loose the warning and she will have no choice but to go straight to a bite. 

Remember, she is an animal, an intelligent animal, she has feelings and fears, wants/needs, likes and dislikes - just like every other living animal (including humans). We need to respect her as a living, thinking, feeling being not treat her like an animated toy to tolerate whatever we dish out. (boy, I sound downright animal rightist here - urg!)

I hope your friend will recover quickly with no hard feelings toward Teddy or you. I hope you get to take Teddy home with you soon, I'll guess it's really hard on both of you to be apart. 

Take care!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Oh man. There's so much going on I don't even know where to start. Sorry about this unfortunate situation, for everyone, there's other members that'll chime in for sure to explain better than me about more in the why this happened.


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

BorderKelpie said:


> Ok, first, tell your friend to never, ever pin her to the floor again. That is an old and dangerous wives' tale. It causes nothing but more fear and aggression issues.


 My friend was emulating cesar milan's way which she acknowledged later that she shouldn't have tried that. Is there anyway to get Teddy stop pestering my friend when she is feeding the toddler? Teddy usually responds to my "NO" command and will just drop it but when it comes to my friend on top of the temptation of food, she becomes fixated and command does not work anymore.



BorderKelpie said:


> What I would suggest is, when she growls, back up, try to sort out what triggered the growl. Then, figure out a way for your friend to avoid situations that cause the growl. You can work on desensitizing her later when you have her full time again.


 My friends and I tried to find out what trigger the growling. Physical injuries and discomfort have been ruled out. I understand the food/bowl guarding part and this, I believe, can be worked on. But what r*eally baffles me* is that she growls at my friends even when they pet her gently and show her affection. Sometimes she likes it and will lick my friends, sometimes she just growls. Don't you think this is very odd and inconsistent response to affection? Should my friends just stop showing her affection at all.



BorderKelpie said:


> Never, ever correct her for growling or you will loose the warning and she will have no choice but to go straight to a bite.


 What should be the proper response to growling? My friend's husband tried to dominate her by cornering her and said "NO" sternly until she surrendered and laid down. I saw the trainer did that as well. They explained to me that this is the way to exert dominance. Both of them got bitten. Was it wrong to do that? 



BorderKelpie said:


> Remember, she is an animal, an intelligent animal, she has feelings and fears, wants/needs, likes and dislikes - just like every other living animal (including humans). We need to respect her as a living, thinking, feeling being not treat her like an animated toy to tolerate whatever we dish out. (boy, I sound downright animal rightist here - urg!)


 I agree with you. I do feel that Teddy is actually a very bright dog with a very gentle soul and shouldn't be treated like a toy. 



BorderKelpie said:


> I hope your friend will recover quickly with no hard feelings toward Teddy or you. I hope you get to take Teddy home with you soon, I'll guess it's really hard on both of you to be apart.


 My friend was cool with it but I felt so bad that she got injured. She still adores Teddy but is understandably wary of Teddy now. When I visited my friend the evening after she got bitten, Teddy was relaxing on my lap almost falling asleep and my friend couldn't help but pet her because she looked so adorable. And Teddy was fine with that. 

I really want the best for Teddy without putting my friends and family in danger of getting bitten or growled at. What should I do?


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

To stop her from pestering, put her inside a crate. She clearly needs her own space. Poor Teddy! I hope your friend is getting better soon.


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

When she growl, she needs her space so quietly escort her to her crate. Thats it. Very easy. Dont correct a growl, you would just aggravate her for no reason. After a couple minutes inside her crate, she will settle down then let her out of her crate. Repeat on the next growl.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Im not a trainer, but it sounds to me like your friend and her husband are trying to use methods they don't have near enough knowledge to use. They have scared the crud out of your poodle and your poodle is reacting out of fear. Honestly if it were me, I would get my dog and bring her home and then contact a behaviorist to try to reverse any psychological damage that has been done.


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## elem8886 (Sep 19, 2012)

I'd be careful trying to escort her to her crate once she is growling. Trying to pick her up or herd her to her crate may cause her to bite as well.

Definitely agree with BorderKelpie's advice. At the very least keep Teddy separated from the toddlers - _especially_ when they or Teddy are eating.

Hopefully you can get things sorted out for Teddy and your friends!


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

Thank you guys. I have been quite stressed and distracted at work over this issue with Teddy. You guys and your suggestions really make me feel better. Thank you!



Joelly said:


> To stop her from pestering, put her inside a crate. She clearly needs her own space. Poor Teddy! I hope your friend is getting better soon.





Joelly said:


> When she growl, she needs her space so quietly escort her to her crate. Thats it. Very easy. Dont correct a growl, you would just aggravate her for no reason. After a couple minutes inside her crate, she will settle down then let her out of her crate. Repeat on the next growl.


Are there any ways to get her back to the crate obediently? I am not exactly sure how to escort when she is in the growling mood or fixated with food. Appreciate some explicit instructions so that I can convey them to my friend who is still fostering Teddy at the moment. When we crate Teddy she will whine until we let her out...


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## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

Why is she at your friends house? Toys can become very attached to their owners, and to place one with a family of toddlers....  The dog should be removed and brought home. Feed her in her crate, teach her that is a good place. The dog has already bitten two people more than once and you leave her there with toddlers? Just asking for a disaster. 

Personally, I would not live with a dog that bites. Nope, too many nice dogs out there.


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> Im not a trainer, but it sounds to me like your friend and her husband are trying to use methods they don't have near enough knowledge to use. They have scared the crud out of your poodle and your poodle is reacting out of fear. Honestly if it were me, I would get my dog and bring her home and then contact a behaviorist to try to reverse any psychological damage that has been done.


There is no professional behaviorist 50 miles radius of where I live. Mostly just dog trainers who do obedience training like fetch, sit, heel etc which Teddy aced through. The trainer I previously engaged and claimed to specialize in toy poodle was one of the guys who cornered Teddy to assert dominance until he got bitten. I was there when he did it and Teddy was visibly scared.


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

loves said:


> Why is she at your friends house? Toys can become very attached to their owners, and to place one with a family of toddlers.... The dog should be removed and brought home. Feed her in her crate, teach her that is a good place. The dog has already bitten two people more than once and you leave her there with toddlers? Just asking for a disaster.
> 
> Personally, I would not live with a dog that bites. Nope, too many nice dogs out there.


I work whole day and can't really watch her. My friend is a stay-at-home mom and I thought that is better than having Teddy being crated at home alone.

Teddy has always been fed in her crate.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Ok, if she is that fixated on food - toss a bit in her crate then, close the door when she goes in. Easy.  

That's how I start all my dogs, my personal ones and any fosters/boarders/guests, etc. If food doesn't work, toys might. 

(I know she's a little girl, but my dogs will go happily into their crates for two or three pieces of cat food - might be worth getting a bag of healthy cat food or healthy 'crate-only' extra yummy special treats) 

Um, here's a great catalog page on healthy treats:

Leerburg Dog Training | Treats

she won't need huge chunks of treats, just a nibble will do - each and every time for your friend to toss in her crate so she doesn't have to chase, catch, herd or whatever to get Teddy to go there. That may also help with getting Teddy more comfortable with her. All positive, nothing scary. 

Best wishes!


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

My dogs are a year old now , and from day 1, I told my 4 year old that growls are a warning. And if she keeps pestering the dogs and gets bit, that the dog won't be in trouble because they warned her with a growl. We have had no issues i am happy to say. Your friends kids are too small to understand that warning and those rules. I would invest in sending her to doggy day care so she can interact with other dogs. and bring her to a behaviorist. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree with what others have said - your friends are using dangerous, outdated methods that they don't understand on a dog that does not know them well enough to trust their intentions and already has resource guarding issues, and they are doing it with two toddlers in the house! This strikes me as a recipe for disaster, and I think she would be safer at home even if it means no company during the day. You risk making her problems much worse, and having her mistrust all strangers on sight.

I also think that she would benefit from a session or two with a behaviourist - it's not necessarily like regular training classes: even one or two sessions several weeks apart could help you both enormously. It would be rather expensive, but nothing compared to the heartbreak if she bit someone less understanding than your friend. I'd also recommend Patricia McConnell's Mine! A practical guide to resource guarding, which you can hget as a downloadable e-book.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Leo's Teddy said:


> There is no professional behaviorist 50 miles radius of where I live. Mostly just dog trainers who do obedience training like fetch, sit, heel etc which Teddy aced through. The trainer I previously engaged and claimed to specialize in toy poodle was one of the guys who cornered Teddy to assert dominance until he got bitten. I was there when he did it and Teddy was visibly scared.



You say "Teddy was visibly scared" when this guy cornered her, and yet you sent her to a home where they used the same method and then you don't understand why Teddy lashed out? :alberteinstein:

Your dog is much better off at home all day alone then staying with someone who scares her one minute then expects her to sit nicely and be petted the next. 

I am having trouble believing this is real. 

Get her out of that home before she bites one of the children and ends up being put to sleep because of someone's stupidity.:motz:


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> You say "Teddy was visibly scared" when this guy cornered her, and yet you sent her to a home where they used the same method and then you don't understand why Teddy lashed out? :alberteinstein:
> 
> Your dog is much better off at home all day alone then staying with someone who scares her one minute then expects her to sit nicely and be petted the next.
> 
> ...


The trainer explained to me that it was a sign of submission and part of the process of asserting dominance. Please understand that this is more because of my inexperience rather than stupidity that I believe him. Teddy is my first dog and there are always conflicting advice on what is good to teddy and what is not. That's why I am asking for advice here because this is a poodle specific forum and based on real experience.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you just need to gain the confidence to go with your gut feeling - it told you that Teddy was frightened, and you felt that could not be right, but as so often happens someone in a position of authority overbore your judgement. It has probably happened to all of us at some time or another, with a dog, or at work, or in some other circumstances. The great thing about non-aversive training methods are that even if you get them wrong they are far less likely to do lasting emotional damage, and any problems that do result can be overcome with a better understanding of how to train. 

I would hunt around for a non-aversive training class and/or a certified behaviourist, and in the meantime tell your friend that, kind as it is of her to care for Teddy, you are too anxious about the possibility of him biting one of the children to let the arrangement continue. Read lots of books, browse around this forum (you will find several threads on resource guarding, including Fozzie's Mum's experience), and focus on having as much fun with Teddy as you can when you are with him. He is still a very young dog - with lots of the right experiences, and the absolute minimum of scary ones, I am sure you can help him to grow up into a confident, happy dog who will be a delight to live with. But remember that he is very tiny, and relies on you to protect him and be his advocate - if he is forced to protect himself, he will warn with body language, then growls, and then eventually use his teeth...


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Leo's Teddy said:


> Thank you guys. I have been quite stressed and distracted at work over this issue with Teddy. You guys and your suggestions really make me feel better. Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1st of all, not sure escorting her to her crate would be best in this circumstance. Teddy has attached to you and this arrangment you subject her to is stressing her out, cant u see that?


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

N2Mischief said:


> You say "Teddy was visibly scared" when this guy cornered her, and yet you sent her to a home where they used the same method and then you don't understand why Teddy lashed out? :alberteinstein:
> 
> Your dog is much better off at home all day alone then staying with someone who scares her one minute then expects her to sit nicely and be petted the next.
> 
> ...


Ditto. Seriously, I would rather leave them alone at home than subject them to strange situation. If I'll be gone for a week, his breeder gladly will foster both boys. :amen:


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you need to gain the confidence to trust your gut feelings - you could see that Teddy was scared, deep down you felt that it was wrong, but someone in a position of authority overbore your judgement. It has probably happened to all of us at some time or another, over a dog, at work, or in some other situation. I would read lots of books, browse this forum (there are a number of threads on resource guarding, including the ones on Fozzie's Mum's salutary experiences), and try to find a really good force free training class for advice and support. Meanwhile, I think I would tell my friend that, kind as it is of her to care for Teddy, the risk that one of the children might be frightened or hurt is just too great for the arrangement to continue.

Remember that she is very small - she relies upon you to protect her and to be her advocate. If she is forced to protect herself, she will warn with body language, then with growls (just as she did in the situations you describes) and then, if left with no other choices, she will use her teeth. She didn't bite "out of the blue" - she bit because she was made to feel very unsafe and uncomfortable, and all her requests and warnings to be left alone were ignored. Next time, knowing growling has no result or is even punished, she may decide to go straight to teeth. 

One of the advantages of using non-coercive training methods is that you are far less likely to do any lasting damage if you get it wrong. And they are much, much more fun for both the dog and the human! Teddy is still a very young dog - with lots of happy training experiences, and care to avoid any more scary ones, I am sure that you can help her to grow up into a happy, balanced little dog who is a joy to be with. But it won't just happen - you need to work on it constantly, at home, out and about, and in the right classes, first ditching everything you have been told about scaring her into submission. It might work with some dogs (although that is moot) - it self evidently does not work wth Teddy!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I have a toy too. Because of the diminutive size I feel that a toy should not be interacting with toddlers and would be far better off crated while you are at work or put in an enclosed safe area. I put Swizzle in my mud room when I go out. To try to pin a frightened dog is asking to get bitten. It is very important you heed his growl and avoid pushing him into biting. My guess is that your friends are inexperienced with dogs. They sound nice and I am sure they are well meaning but now you are in a position where your dog has gone there and once that boundary has been broken it is easier to go there again. Even if you drive far see a certified behaviorist so Teddy can be assessed and they can offer you strategies. As you have already found out a simple trainer won't do. You can sort this out but it will take effort.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Just imagine you're walking down a city street and someone comes up to you and starts stroking you and patting your head. You say, "hey, quit that. I don't like it." And they force you on your back and pin you down. You say, "Stop!" And they ignore you and continue holding you down. Wouldn't you do something to protect yourself? The dog's growls are your "hey, quit that. I don't like it. Stop." The dog's bite is protecting herself when this _manhandling_ isn't stopped. 

The dog feels threatened and attacked. The dog is an animal and animals will defend themselves when _THEY_ feel pushed to the brink. This is why I can't stand Cesar Milan. This dominance, force, intimidation, punishment has no place in training dogs. And especially dogs that are already insecure. Forget "dominance" and "alpha" and all the rest of these outdated, human- invented stuff that has been thoroughly disproven as having anything to do with human interactions with dogs. Cesar Milan is a self proclaimed "expert." He got himself on TV. But he has NO credentials and is going off of abusive, ridiculous nonsense that no applied animal or veterinary behaviorist agrees with. His methods, not surprisingly are dangerous and very likely to cause behavior problems like this. And they're just not in line with how dogs and human relationships are. I can't tell you how many dog-owning clients I've had who have ruined their dogs by watching Cesar Milan and then had to try and turn things around.

Dogs are not trying to gain control of us or climb some human-invented social ladder. Dogs are not aware of social status. They are not a true pack animal with a linear hierarchy. They had a convergent evolution with humans and being more scavengers than hunters...they have no need to form consistent hierarchies. We do not have to dominate them. We have to show them how to live with our rules but benevolently and with sound training methods based on learning behavior, not intimidation. 

Dogs don't automatically (they can learn) appreciate being petted, especially on the top of their heads...looming over them...they don't know what's happening to them. Food? Of course she's going to defend her food. Until a dog learns that humans around her food equals good things, she's going to guard it. She's an animal.

These friends of yours, however well intentioned, shouldn't be watching Cesar Milan. He shouldn't be on TV at all. And you should consult a certified behaviorist...someone who knows what they're doing that does not use punishment to teach. That trainer was an idiot who used force on this animal.

What should you do if the dog growls? Respect that she is trying to tell you to back off...that she is afraid. And then back off. Growling is nothing more than communication and she shouldn't be punished for it. She should be _rewarded_. _Thank you for telling me. Now I know you don't like that and we'll find a way later on to change your mind so that you do like it. But not right now. I'll stop doing that. _

A dog with a history of treatment using force, coercion, fear-inducing methods, intimidation does not bite out of the blue. They bite because they've been primed or groomed to bite. It's been in the making. So I don't know what this dog's past was like but as I read your post, I'm thinking, _well I am not surprised the dog bit. _ 

I wouldn't have this dog around toddlers at all. And if you want to help this situation, you need to leave the dog alone, don't pat the dog unless she clearly asks for it. It is not a natural, automatic thing that dogs like until they learn to like it. 

Feed her by hand. Give her a safe room where she can go to get away from it all. Don't do anything overt. In other words, let her regain trust in you or whomever she's going to be with. With whatever you need to do with her, for instance, brushing, condition her to it. One bite of steak and one gentle swipe with the brush, one bite of chicken, another swipe with the brush. If she doesn't go for it, don't brush just yet. Hold the brush so she can see it and feed her/talk sweetly to her. And work up from there. Associate good things...things she loves with anything you do with her. Put the collar and leash on for instance, feed. Ask her to come inside after a potty break, feed. Is she crate trained? Has any conditioning to that been done? Don't force her in. Toss a bone or treat in and leave the door open so she can come and go until she learns that it's a nice place to lie down. Don't make her feel cornered or forced. Forget obedience for now. She has not been trained. You can work on some little skills like sit and down when she feels more trusting. If she sits on her own by you, you can reward her and as she sits, if you see her, you can insert the word, "sit." And reinforce with a treat. Capture behaviors you like and reinforce. Behaviors you like will be repeated when there's a pay off for her.

Feed all her meals by hand for a while...no bowl. Then get a bowl and sit down on the floor. Drop in a small amount but keep holding the bowl for her, then put in another small amount that you get from a table that's out of reach of her. You keep holding the bowl for a time. Then put the bowl on the floor and put in a small amount of food. Walk away. When she's finished, walk back to the bowl and put in another small amount, walk away. Soon, she'll be looking at you to bring her more food. Make it tasty. When you come to her bowl, put in something better than what she was eating sometimes. Show her that humans around her food is a good thing....a really good thing. Never take her food or toy or anything away from her without trading her for something better than what she had. She must learn that it's not a threat when someone takes something...that it's actually a good thing. "Hey, come take this bone and give me that Porterhouse steak you have on that plate." Make practice sessions out of this. If she has something she likes in her possession, show her the better thing you have and when she goes for it, and drops what she has, pick that up. Give her the terrific thing, hold onto the thing she had, then when she's finished, give her back the thing she had too! So, it's a win win for her. Make it a fun game. Giving up her possessions can become pleasurable, not a threat. Remember, put away everything you ever heard about dominance, "assertive energy," show 'em who's boss. And learn how dogs really think and learn.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Leo's Teddy said:


> The first two-days while I was away, Teddy was noted to be slightly upset and "emo-ing" lying on the floor with her head down. When my friend tried to comfort Teddy by petting her head, she started to growl at my friend.
> 
> Visits to the vet did not find any injury on Teddy that might cause her pain or discomfort. My suspicion is that Teddy has separation anxiety issue which escalates her food aggression. The odd thing is, my friend noticed that Teddy sometimes likes to be petted and sometimes does not and she shows her dislike by growling. This erratic behaviour seems a bit bizarre.


i don't know what training method you used at home, but from what you've said, it appears you hadn't encountered this behavior from teddy before? you don't mention her growling at you over food, brushing, etc., while she is at home with you. so assuming you had teddy as a pup and discarding the suggestion that seems to be floating around that teddy was treated abusively to begin with, it could well be that your suspicion comes closer to getting at contributory factors to the aggression than anything else. 

if teddy is looking to be petted sometimes and growling at other times even in the absence of food issues, yes, that sounds erratic to me. i do think you need to consult a veterinary behaviorist. a vet behaviorist will be better placed to diagnose and even to prescribe medication if separation anxiety is feeding into aggressive tendencies. there could well be other issues which those of us who are not trained in veterinary medicine know nothing about.

in the meantime, it really sounds unwise to return teddy to your friend's home. she could indeed end up injuring one of the children; in fact, i would say that the chances are high of that happening. unfortunately, a seriously injured child - and it doesn't take much to seriously injure a toddler - can lead to euthanasia for a dog. please do all you can to avoid such an outcome.

hoping for the best for you with resolving this issue.


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

I have read through this entire thread... and one thing that I am wondering is... what are your friends not telling you. Did they do something to do the dog... a lot of people are very rough with animals, in particular dogs..."hey, it's only a dog." I just kept my friends toy poodle puppy... we had a great time. When I saw her the other day... she was SO excited to see me... she ran zoomies onto the sofa and circles around me, stopping to jump up and kiss my face...and then more zoomies. 

Another thing to think about is... your home may be quiet. And if your friend has toddlers, I guarantee it isn't. And depending on the age of the children, there may be a bit of tension. Teddy will certainly pick up on this... which could be causing her tension. 

Imagine, you had a nice quiet home that you loved, where you were the baby...and suddenly you were thrown into chaos, where are persona non grata. (I have children... I know what I'm talking about.)


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Leo's Teddy*: Sounds to me like you_ earnestly_ want to safeguard Teddy, your friends and their toddlers. You have been offered great suggestions to accomplish that.

I think Teddy is your first dog, so you're probably experiencing a lot of novel things with her. I read an earlier thread of yours from a few months ago where you described Teddy growling and snapping after a tooth brushing mishap. You said then, "_*I was a bit shocked because teddy never growl before. When I tried to wiggle the toothbrush from her clench, the growl grew louder and she still wouldn't let go. Then, a few seconds later, she just snapped and went ballistic! *And when I put the toothbrush back into the box where I kept all her grooming gears, she barked furiously at the box! I have never seen her like that._" http://www.poodleforum.com/9-poodle-grooming/66921-problem-brushing-teeth.html

Teddy sounds to me like a smart little girl who keeps trying her best to communicate how she's feeling. What might have seemed "out of the blue" behavior to you in this recent incident hopefully now appears otherwise after reading what others had to say. My belief is the number one job of any pet owner is to keep their pet safe. I think you need to really focus on that right now. Do not endanger her, your friends or their toddlers further. Find an alternate daycare arrangement immediately. Then please consider and follow the good advice offered by others here. 

I hope you will keep us updated on how things are going. That way we can all continue learn from on another. I'm a granny who's had dogs for decades and I still learn something about them nearly every day. Good luck with things!:clover:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

May I ask how long you've had Teddy and if anyone owned her before you? Where did she come from? A shelter, rescue or breeder? At what age was she taken from her litter mates?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

My Tpoos always did fine at home alone when I was working - in an ex-pen, with wee weepads, food, water, and chew toys until they were old enough to be trusted, and then lose in the home - they simply learned to adjust their sleep schedule to where they would rest most of the day and be ready for fun when I got home. I think that you are making a huge mistake allowing clearly unknowledgeable people to shape your dog's behavior for the worse - keep her in your own home, and work on the issues as you have been advised!


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## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

Poor Teddy seems to be as confused as you are. I agree with the advice you have been given. Get Teddy out of your friend's home. I think she would be happier alone while you work than in the chaos that is your friend's home. Find a room in your home or apartment than you can gate off with baby gates like the kitchen or bathroom where accidents will be easy to clean up. Put her crate, food and piddle pads in there along with a few toys. I'm currently retired, but I've had puppies and dogs for much of my working life. Once they understood the routine they were fine. Never use force or frightening training methods with any dog, let alone a small one. A frightened dog is likely to bite. What alternative do they have? You are here because you love your dog. Protect her by keeping her out of situations where biting may result in having her put down.


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

*UPDATE: Teddy is rehomed and A Happy Puppy Again. Thank you all!*

Dear All,

Thank you so much for chipping in on advice to handle this "Teddy situation". I am happy to report that I have removed Teddy away from my friend's home. My friend was quite reluctant to be parted with Teddy because obviously she fell in love with Teddy too. However, we both knew this is the best arrangement to prevent Teddy going into distress or my friend's children getting hurt.

Apologies for reporting this after the two weeks hiatus. For some reason, I didn't get the alert for all the replies to this thread and I only read them today =)


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

Poodlelvr said:


> Never use force or frightening training methods with any dog, let alone a small one. A frightened dog is likely to bite.


I come to realize this too. My friend was imitating Cesar Milan's "dominating approach". It clearly was overkill and then backfired. Cesar Milan syndrome + my unprofessional friend + my misjudgment = poor teddy in distress.


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> My Tpoos always did fine at home alone when I was working - in an ex-pen, with wee weepads, food, water, and chew toys until they were old enough to be trusted, and then lose in the home - they simply learned to adjust their sleep schedule to where they would rest most of the day and be ready for fun when I got home. I think that you are making a huge mistake allowing clearly unknowledgeable people to shape your dog's behavior for the worse - keep her in your own home, and work on the issues as you have been advised!


Yes, I do realize it's a mistake on my part to leave Teddy with unknowledgeable people. I thought she will be happier being able around people and having the freedom to move about my friend's house.

May I know when will be the right age to let Tpoo lose at home unsupervised? I keep Teddy in a huge crate that can fit two full grown labradors. I just think it might be a bit cruel to leave her within such confinement. She puts her snout between the bars and gives me sad eyes.


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> May I ask how long you've had Teddy and if anyone owned her before you? Where did she come from? A shelter, rescue or breeder? At what age was she taken from her litter mates?


I got Teddy when she was 2.5 months old. I have her ever since and I am the sole owner of Teddy. She was from pet shop (please don't judge me. it was not my intention to support puppy mill. i was told that she was from a home breeder). She was together with her litter mates all the time and they were nibbling on her. I took pity on her so brought her back. The litter left their mother around 2 months old.


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> These friends of yours, however well intentioned, shouldn't be watching Cesar Milan. He shouldn't be on TV at all.


:amen:



Poodlebeguiled said:


> Feed all her meals by hand for a while...no bowl. Then get a bowl and sit down on the floor. Drop in a small amount but keep holding the bowl for her, then put in another small amount that you get from a table that's out of reach of her. You keep holding the bowl for a time. Then put the bowl on the floor and put in a small amount of food. Walk away. When she's finished, walk back to the bowl and put in another small amount, walk away. Soon, she'll be looking at you to bring her more food. Make it tasty. When you come to her bowl, put in something better than what she was eating sometimes. Show her that humans around her food is a good thing....a really good thing. Never take her food or toy or anything away from her without trading her for something better than what she had. ...


Thanks for the detailed advice. It is very helpful and practical. Teddy is fine with me moving her bowl around. =)


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

hopetocurl said:


> I have read through this entire thread... and one thing that I am wondering is... what are your friends not telling you. Did they do something to do the dog... a lot of people are very rough with animals, in particular dogs..."hey, it's only a dog."


Hehehe, my friend admitted later that one of her toddlers were rolling on top of Teddy! :angry:

Teddy is no longer with them. She is very happy now. 

I learn that Tpoo requires gentle handling and is not meant for thoughtless kids under 10 years old.


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

Chagall's mom said:


> Teddy sounds to me like a smart little girl who keeps trying her best to communicate how she's feeling.


She is really smart. =) I was just too misinformed to recognize that. But now I do!



Chagall's mom said:


> I hope you will keep us updated on how things are going. That way we can all continue learn from on another. I'm a granny who's had dogs for decades and I still learn something about them nearly every day. Good luck with things!:clover:


Thank you! I have updated on Teddy's recent well-being in this thread. She is now rehomed and is a happy puppy again with freedom to run around. =)

The lessons I learnt:
1. No untrained person should go "cesar milan" on any dogs.
2. Tpoos are smart little dogs who communicate when they are in distress
3. Tpoos are a delicate breed and no kids should be allowed to handle them without experienced supervision
4. Always use positive reinforcement to correct dog behaviours


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## HerdingStdPoodle (Oct 17, 2012)

*Thank you*

Hi Leo's Teddy;

I just saw your thread and I want to applaud you for your courage and honesty in sharing your problem, requesting seasoned advice, engaging in introspection, and hanging in there and not avoiding or leaving the forum! Kudos to you, dear Leo's Teddy! Sometimes the learning process can be quite painful. Just remember that we are here for you and we want the best for you and Teddy! :grouphug:
HerdingStdPoodle


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

ditto to herdingstdpoodle's comments.


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

Thank you all for your support!

Teddy is back to being a happy puppy again. Attached here is a photo of her relaxing on the floor:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm so glad to hear Teddy's doing so much better and that you learned so much. And that you stayed on board here with us. It shows a lot of wisdom and courage to do what you did. Kudos. She is one adorable puppy. Can't wait to see more pictures and hear how she's doing.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

So glad to hear Teddy is happy again - and that you discovered how difficult for her your friend's household was before she became too frightened.

On giving her the freedom of the house - can you set up a safe room for her - perhaps kitchen or bathroom - with bed, water, a safe chew or two, and if you are going to be away more than a few hours puppy pads or some other toileting area? It will give her more room than even the largest crate, and if she is ok in one room you can gradually open the way into more. I don't think it is fair to expect any dog to hold their bladder etc for more than 5 or 6 hours - many, perhaps most, will learn to do so, but it can lead to urinary problems and must be miserable for the dog!


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

Thank you all for checking back on Teddy. We all just love our poodles, don't we. We are all they have.

Chagall's mom brought up the toothbrush incident. Thank you for being so thorough in discerning some background of my situation and thanks your great advice. Anyway, I just want to clarify that Teddy didn't bite me during the toothbrush incident. She was just snapping and barking furiously at the toothbrush and the box of grooming kits where I kept the toothbrush. =) It is quite funny come to think of it that Teddy was so furious at inanimate objects.

Teddy got over her fear of cleaning teeth after a week. I followed fjm's advice religiously and it worked like a charm. (sorry didn't get back with an update on that one. I was SO busy with work!) Nowadays, Teddy is so relaxed when I groom her that she actually falls asleep on my lap. For the record, Teddy never bite me. Not even once. Her first tooth brush encounter was the only time I witnessed her going ballistic. And she directed her fury towards the toothbrush and the tool box. 

Teddy really amazes me by how quickly she recovers from traumatic experience like being pinned to the floor and being "dominated". Once she was removed from that environment, she forgot everything and was back being her playful, cheeky and relaxed self. Tpoos are such sweethearts! On our way back, Teddy rested her head on my lap and just stared at me with those eyes that say "I am so happy that you have come back for me". I swear to be a more informed owner and protect her from aggression coming from unknowledageable people. There is something about poodles and their expressive eyes that make me think that they are more perceptive and thoughtful than humans give them credit for. May be that's why we love them so much.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Leo's Teddy*: So good of you to give us an update,_ thanks! _Really sounds like you have things well in hand now. Nice to hear sweet Teddy is again feeling so relaxed and happy! I agree, poodles really do have a "special something" that makes them so loveable. It also makes protecting them from harm and seeing to their happiness and well being all the more important as well. Keep enjoying your little girl, with her well-brushed pearly white teeth and shiny coat! 

ETA: Please keep posting, with photos of her little cuteness!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

What a darling Teddy is! I think being a good advocate for our dogs is something we all have to learn - it can be so difficult to know what is best when you are new to the whole business of dog behaviour, health and training. Fortunately dogs are usually very forgiving of our mistakes, and hugely appreciative when we get it right - I know my dogs are much more competent trainers than I am. They are patient, consistent, ignore me when I get it wrong, and reward me instantly with wags and smiles and bounces when I finally understand!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Teddy's point of view:

She's lived alone with you for the first year of her life. She's known only you, her home, her toys, her things and it's been quiet, safe, and secure.

Now, suddenly, she's been "abandoned" to a strange family, with OMG TODDLERS. (sidebar: I had dogs before I had kids. When I had kids it was complete shellshock for my dogs. Kids are loud, kids grab and pinch, they walk funny, they squeeze little dogs, they pinch skin, pull hair, are LOUD, and unpredictable to a dog, especially a little one).

Now these people she doesn't know are trying to "pet" her when she's a nervous wreck and trying to cope with sudden changes. 
WORST of all, the adult female pins her to the ground and makes an angry face. What's a poodle to do? She's likely petrified by this point and heck yes, she's going to defend herself. (and her food bowl, etc) 

Human male steps in with his big voice and corners the poor thing and then bellers with his big, scary voice. Now she's REALLY afraid because it's obvious there are NO safe humans in this house. They are going to hurt her for sure. She is going to defend herself, I mean, wouldn't you? Would you just lie down and let someone hurt you? Even if the humans are going to pin her down to show "dominance" they still, to Teddy's mind, are looking to hurt her. 

Cesar is an idiot. His methods are old school, and at the very least OK for large breed aggressive dogs, not tiny toy dogs who are scared out of their mind.
In other words, scaring a dog more is not going to fix the problem!!

Get her out of there now. Find a foster who actually has experience fostering fearful dogs. They need to be WELL versed in positive training. I don't "Train" my dogs, I form a team with them. I have to use VERY little "negative" corrections because I show the dogs exactly what I want, and in return they have a lot of fun!

This girl needs to be left alone to figure things out and calm down while in a foster home. If I took a dog like this in I would speak sweetly to her but otherwise NOT try to touch her or pick her up or manipulate her in any way.I would keep a very light 6' leash on her just in case i need to 'control' her in some way (for her safety more than anything!) First of all, I would need to "make friends" with her and show her that I'm not going to eat her. This includes keeping my hands out of her food bowl. I would also feed her in her crate. She needs to know there is a human she can trust first. Eventually they come around and realize everything's ok. 

All this punishing and "dominance" crap can ruin (has!) a perfectly fine dog. 


Now let's look at it from Teddy's point of view from a different foster's mindset:
Teddy is scared, where did her mom go? Why is she here? It's different and scary! Where is she supposed to pee? What is she supposed to eat? Is this human going to eat me?
Oh, she's not eating me, she's ignoring me. Since 'mom' went away maybe I'll follow her around a little. (this can go on from hours to probably days now that she's had such a bad experience) The human fed me from my bowl and didn't touch the bowl while I was eating.. Phew. At least I know I won't starve!
Hm. The human is sitting on the sofa. I'm scared but it looks soft. Maybe I'll sit on the other end. I'm nervous and the lady is talking sweetly but she doesn't even look at me (eye contact can be threatening to dogs). Maybe I'll just sit next to her...
And so trust begins and a new relationship is formed.

Dogs are not robots. They have feelings just like we do. They can't reason like we do when things like this happen to them. I know I don't care for staying at other people's houses, it's not your stuff, your comfy bed, your familiar items and routine, it's theirs, it's change and it can be difficult. So now imagine that from a tiny dog's point of view who can't comprehend that "hey these people are going to take care of you and it's only for x amount of weeks."

I hope this has helped some. I hope you get her away from the current "foster." and into a home with small dog experience who are not going to intimidate and petrify poor Teddy. 

Sorry that the people got bitten but it's basically their complete fault. Only society today will blame the dog and condemn the dog.



Please update with her progress.

EDIT I should've read through all the pages, but the information is important to me to share, so I will leave it up. Glad she's back to normal.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Teddy's point of view:
> 
> She's lived alone with you for the first year of her life. She's known only you, her home, her toys, her things and it's been quiet, safe, and secure.
> 
> ...


Great post!:adore: The only thing I'll disagree with that it's okay for large aggressive dogs. (even though you said "at the very least") LOL. It is very dangerous to use his methods on large aggressive dogs or even large dogs that aren't aggressive. They will very likely become aggressive, as I have encountered in many dogs in my work. And large dogs can cause a lot of damage. I can't tell you how many dogs I've been asked to rehab where the owners have copied Cesar Milan. Cesar Milan doesn't know behavior one iota nor does he possess any credentials. And when people keep saying but he does do something right...advocates for more exercise and something else. But listen. So do good trainers and behaviorists and just plain dog people. It's nothing remarkable that he says that dogs need exercise. And the outrageous amount of exercise he pushes for is unnecessary and unnatural. But that's beside the point. His forceful methods coupled with his inability to recognize what he's seeing in behavior is really sending dog training back into the dark ages.

Shamrockmommy...I think you hit the nail on the head with what the dog is probably going through emotionally.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

one thing cesar millan has never done is denigrate his critics the way some feel they have to denigrate him to support their chosen methodology. the international association of canine professionals has installed him as a member of its international hall of fame, along with others such as barbara wodehouse, william koehler, ian dunbar, carol lea benjamin, wendy and jack volhard, etc., not all of whom were "certified" either. hanging a certification on someone does not make them qualified. even jean donaldson has stated that certification and competence are two separate issues:

_*The great leveler is good technical knowledge … so there are two discussions. One is, are you technically competent? The other is, what is your philosophy, vis-à-vis, do you use pain in training? I think those are two discussions that people tend to muddle together, and say, well, you’re only competent when you use positive reinforcement. Well, not necessarily. You can only use positive reinforcement and be incompetent. Likewise, you can use punishment and be competent or incompetent. So these are modular qualities in trainers*_.


responsible owners use common sense in their approach to training their dogs; there is not only one way. we have members here who use various methods to teach their dogs to live in human society. some are sterner than others yet very understanding of their colleagues at pf. on the other hand, some of the positive reinforcement proponents are among the most aggressive in telling others how wrong they are and have driven people away from pf. oh, yes, i have watched participants disappear off these boards after being "judged" and found wanting. enough already. driving people away from pf does nothing to help the breed or dogs in the hands of no-longer-participating owners.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

It is the incompetent trainer who feels a need to intimidate, dominate, cause pain and suffering to animals and Cesar Milan does just that. I will not ever bow down to "political correctness" for such extreme handling of dogs that I've witnessed on his show. It is, in many cases flat out abuse! I can site all kinds of behaviorists who have plenty to say about him and his methods. And what they say is far from complementary. 

So, when someone wants to emulate him and use flooding, intimidation, domination and physical pain on dogs, you better believe there are those of us who _will_ stand up for dogs, innocent animals that don't deserve to be so grossly misunderstood and likewise mistreated.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

*Dominance theory--everything you thought you knew is wrong*

The very first paragraphs in the article on Time's web site point out the error of doing anything Cesar Millan recommends: Dog Training and the Myth of Alpha-Male Dominance.

Dogs are not wolves. And the old "alpha wolf" theory was developed by watching captive packs, which had not opportunity to sort themselves out as they would have in the wild. It has since been discredited.

Dogs may not even be descended from wolves--there's a theory out there that dogs and wolves are descended from a common ancestor. The tamer ones became dogs, and the wilder ones became wolves. A lot of folks hold on to their outmoded beliefs, so don't be surprised if your friend doesn't read the articles or change her ways.

Another article--for yourself, at least--is from Whole Dog Journal: De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory.

Yes, thank your dog for growling. She's telling you she's not comfortable and asking you to do something about it. As for how to move her to her crate without picking her up, use body blocks. Walk into her space and pressure her (by standing too close) to move away and toward the crate. My standard boy has a much better feeling about his crate when I toss kibble in there when I want him to go in and, while he's in there, whenever I go by.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i have read all the criticisms. i have also read that jean donaldson, ian dunbar and others of like mind have come to terms with the fact that cesar millan does know something about dogs, has saved a lot of dogs and is not out there to brutalize every one of them. no one says cesar's methods are the best or for everyone. i don't agree with all of them myself. but yelling at people who have used his methods and implying they are just wrong and stupid doesn't help anyone who has come to pf for advice. as for dominance, i have suggested elsewhere that people check out marc beckoff's essays in _*why dogs hump and bees get depressed*_. behavioral science is not static. there are studies going on all the time that change the perspectives of those involved in the science. so the idea that your dog's every move is an attempt to dominate you is outmoded - but the strict definition currently employed of dominance among animals does not fit the reality emerging from some of those studies.

there are people at pf who use electric shock collars and are doing a world of good with their dogs - including one doing sar. poodlebeguiled herself, who throws stones at millan at every opportunity, whether warranted or not, left her dog to be trained by her breeder - who uses what she characterizes as the jerk the dog by the neck method she so roundly condemns when used by cesar millan - and showed him to a championship in a few weekends.

i'm saying, cut the baloney and, for some, stop being hypocrites. with the best will in the world, people will make mistakes. that's not an excuse to beat them about the head - once again, what some claim they would never do to a dog, they would do to a fellow dog owner? share with people what you know or think you know, direct them to training videos, etc., but stop putting down others at pf who have found their own way to success with their dogs. don't pretend you know everything and have the final word to offer on behavior, training, or anything else. no one does.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I found my breeder to be gentle enough and the little choke chain that looks like a neckless is mainly used in a decorative way to show the dog. His quick rise to champion was not on account of a choke collar. He knew how to walk/trot nicely on a leash when I was using a harness on him long before I decided to show him... by my merely stopping forward motion and making lots of turns to show him where to be. He is most certainly not trained by collar yanks. I would not allow anyone to yank hard on my dog or use anger in conjunction with it. The reason he's a champion is because he's a very nice little dog, well put together with a nice gait and flashy personality that would be hampered by the use of pain and punishment.

I think calling names such as hypocrite is uncalled for.

I simply don't care for Cesar Milan and what he does to dogs and I am not going to be bullied into saying otherwise. That would be hypocritical. I don't like him and I try to educate people in better ways of handling dogs and have never worked with a dog in my long years of owning dogs as well as professionally that I needed to use harsh methods with. Never.


http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/


http://petnewsandviews.com/2011/02/why-veterinary-behaviorists-dont-like-cesar-millan/


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

_"i'm saying, cut the baloney and, for some, stop being hypocrites. with the best will in the world, people will make mistakes. that's not an excuse to beat them about the head - once again, what some claim they would never do to a dog, they would do to a fellow dog owner? share with people what you know or think you know, direct them to training videos, etc., but stop putting down others at pf who have found their own way to success with their dogs. "_

What we have seen on this thread is a copy book example of what can happen when someone who knows little about dogs and dog behaviour copies the methods demonstrated by CM - a frightened dog, a bitten human, a worried owner, and a potentially dangerous situation for adults, children and the dog. I don't think anyone has beaten the OP up - on the contrary, we have recognised that she has acted quickly and sensibly to remove her dog from that situation, recognising the danger to everyone. 

I do not think any of the trainers that I admire mentioned by patk have ever endorsed CM's methods - what they have done is sought to engage with him in an attempt to mitigate the damage his popularity has done, after a great deal of soul searching in case that engagement should be interpreted as approval. Of course forceful punishment can work as a training method - but all the evidence from research indicates that it is at best no more effective than reward based methods, and often less so, while being much, much more likely to cause long term physical and behavioural problems. With simple, safe methods available that have been proven in the laboratory and in the field over and over again, why on earth would anyone advocate an approach that has no basis in research, no proven efficacy, and has resulted in numerous traumatised dogs and butten humans?!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Egg rolls, not alpha rolls! That's all I've got to say.:biggrin:
*


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## HerdingStdPoodle (Oct 17, 2012)

*Confession*



fjm said:


> What a darling Teddy is! I think being a good advocate for our dogs is something we all have to learn - it can be so difficult to know what is best when you are new to the whole business of dog behaviour, health and training. Fortunately dogs are usually very forgiving of our mistakes, and hugely appreciative when we get it right - I know my dogs are much more competent trainers than I am. They are patient, consistent, ignore me when I get it wrong, and reward me instantly with wags and smiles and bounces when I finally understand!


I have a confession to make: before I came to the Poodle Forum---I had *never* heard of Jean Donaldson or many of the Positive-Reinforcement Trainers that are introduced on the Poodle Forum. With my sensitive, loving Louie, (the Spoo who whines because he feels sorry for the sick calves and lonely Nursing Home Residents who he loves to visit!) I have learned who Jean Donaldson is and how to positively motivate my Poodle. This "change" has involved a whole lot of willingness to learn on my part! 

But like fjm stated, "...They are patient, consistent, ignore me when I get it wrong, and reward me instantly with wags and smiles and bounces when I finally understand." 

I think that I am a better person because of the Poodle Forum (at least my Spoo thinks so!), and I truly appreciate other people's point of view about what has worked for them---or not! I appreciate the richness of differing methods and ideas. HerdingStdPoodle


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## QuigleysMom (Jan 9, 2014)

You friend has toddlers. Maybe that's too much stimulation. Also divides your friends attention (as it should) between the toddlers and your dog. I would try to find a friend with no kids to watch your dog. And never pin someone elses dog to the ground! Your friend is obviously not a pack leader to Teddy. Keep your friend and board you dog or find another friend to watch Teddy.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

patk said:


> i have read all the criticisms. i have also read that jean donaldson, ian dunbar and others of like mind have come to terms with the fact that cesar millan does know something about dogs, has saved a lot of dogs and is not out there to brutalize every one of them. no one says cesar's methods are the best or for everyone. i don't agree with all of them myself. but yelling at people who have used his methods and implying they are just wrong and stupid doesn't help anyone who has come to pf for advice. as for dominance, i have suggested elsewhere that people check out marc beckoff's essays in _*why dogs hump and bees get depressed*_. behavioral science is not static. there are studies going on all the time that change the perspectives of those involved in the science. so the idea that your dog's every move is an attempt to dominate you is outmoded - but the strict definition currently employed of dominance among animals does not fit the reality emerging from some of those studies.
> 
> there are people at pf who use electric shock collars and are doing a world of good with their dogs - including one doing sar. *poodlebeguiled herself, who throws stones at millan at every opportunity, whether warranted or not, left her dog to be trained by her breeder - who uses what she characterizes as the jerk the dog by the neck method she so roundly condemns when used by cesar millan - and showed him to a championship in a few weekends.*
> i'm saying, cut the baloney and, for some, stop being hypocrites. with the best will in the world, people will make mistakes. that's not an excuse to beat them about the head - once again, what some claim they would never do to a dog, they would do to a fellow dog owner? share with people what you know or think you know, direct them to training videos, etc., but stop putting down others at pf who have found their own way to success with their dogs. don't pretend you know everything and have the final word to offer on behavior, training, or anything else. no one does.


If you're going to expound about me, at least get the facts straight first. My breeder did not train my dog. I trained my dog. My breeder is also a professional handler and handled him in the show. My breeder taught a handling class which shows people how to handle a dog in the show ring, how to stack them up on the table etc...nothing else. 

Yes, every opportunity to criticize what I find is abusive techniques, I will. And yes, my distaste for bullying dogs is always warranted.

I realize that Cesar may indeed like dogs and thinks he's doing right by them. But all he's doing in reality is shutting them down into a state of learned helplessness, which often winds up coming back at a future time in the form of an explosion from the dog. But why he's so unwilling to look into proven methods which do not include hanging dogs, forcing them across slippery floors that they're terrified of, forcing them to be up close to things that they're terrified of, kicking them in the abdomen and hundreds of other nasty things....why he doesn't listen to real experts, I only have one answer. That's because he's been making big bucks with all the excitement he generates on TV. Why go to methods which do not cause the drama? That doesn't help his _real_ cause.

And I have not put anyone down on PF because they use harsh methods. I may try to show them a way where they don't need to but I don't recall ever calling anyone names or attacking them personally.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Chagall's mom said:


> *Egg rolls, not alpha rolls! That's all I've got to say.:biggrin:
> *


Chicken? :aetsch:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

fjm said:


> _"i'm saying, cut the baloney and, for some, stop being hypocrites. with the best will in the world, people will make mistakes. that's not an excuse to beat them about the head - once again, what some claim they would never do to a dog, they would do to a fellow dog owner? share with people what you know or think you know, direct them to training videos, etc., but stop putting down others at pf who have found their own way to success with their dogs. "_
> 
> What we have seen on this thread is a copy book example of what can happen when someone who knows little about dogs and dog behaviour copies the methods demonstrated by CM - a frightened dog, a bitten human, a worried owner, and a potentially dangerous situation for adults, children and the dog. I don't think anyone has beaten the OP up - on the contrary, we have recognised that she has acted quickly and sensibly to remove her dog from that situation, recognising the danger to everyone.
> 
> I do not think any of the trainers that I admire mentioned by patk have ever endorsed CM's methods - what they have done is sought to engage with him in an attempt to mitigate the damage his popularity has done, after a great deal of soul searching in case that engagement should be interpreted as approval. Of course forceful punishment can work as a training method - but all the evidence from research indicates that it is at best no more effective than reward based methods, and often less so, while being much, much more likely to cause long term physical and behavioural problems. With simple, safe methods available that have been proven in the laboratory and in the field over and over again, why on earth would anyone advocate an approach that has no basis in research, no proven efficacy, and has resulted in numerous traumatised dogs and butten humans?!


:adore::adore::adore:


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

patk said:


> i have read all the criticisms. i have also read that jean donaldson, ian dunbar and others of like mind have come to terms with the fact that cesar millan does know something about dogs, has saved a lot of dogs and is not out there to brutalize every one of them. no one says cesar's methods are the best or for everyone. i don't agree with all of them myself. but yelling at people who have used his methods and implying they are just wrong and stupid doesn't help anyone who has come to pf for advice.<snip>


Sorry, my post did come down a bit hard on Cesar (I used to enjoy his shows). He does have an innate understanding of dogs, and clearly loves them, but he seems to be holding on to the dominance theory. Also, watching his program is not equivalent to taking a course in managing dog behavior, and does not replace keeping up with new research. About the other TV trainer, I prefer Victoria Stillwell's positive reinforcement methods. However, I get annoyed when she yells at the humans (which is positive punishment, not negative reinforcement, by the way). Has she forgotten that +R will work on them, too?

I wasn't born learning how to handle dogs--I've learned a lot since I got rat terrier Devlin, and I made a lot of mistakes on the way. But he's forgiving and willing to work and can now do all the Utility Obedience exercises. I'm learning new and different techniques for standard poodle Neely. If we can convince him not to mug the judge during the stand for exam, we may be ready to compete in obedience this season. 

And back to the original post in the thread--I'm very fussy about who gets to watch my dogs. I wouldn't trust them to someone who didn't understand what a growl meant, who didn't keep them separated from toddlers, or who thought an "alpha roll" was a way to control them. Even the Monks of New Skete have abandoned that practice, and are on record as wishing they'd never written about it.

It's not easy to convince people to give up on the dominance theory, because for them to do that, they first have to recognize that they were mistaken or undereducated. It's very, very hard for people to admit, even to themselves, that they were wrong. They'd much rather ignore the new information than change.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I have never seen Cesar Milan's show or read one of his books. I question if he would advocate pinning a frightened toy poodle who has spent his day around toddlers. I do not use entirely positive methods of training as I use oops and an occasional no. Many years ago when my Aussie was a puppy is used a chain/choke collar in obedience class. I. Never was comfortable with this approach. I feel for the majority of people it is best to stick to the positive as it is harder to really screw up a dog using this type of training. It also helps foster the close bond that I enjoy with my dog.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

This always gets ugly.  People have different training methods! Please respect each other! 

I have pinned my puppy down before (she was not aggressive but was acting up, testing me , she got out of her harness and was acting like she'd run away from me) So I gently laid her down on her side and held her and said caaaaaalm dooooown and held the skin on the back of her neck gently but firmly, like her dog-momma would have done. While I was also petting her She took a deep breath as if she said "ok I'll calm down.." And then I started petting her more and telling her "good girl" and slowly releasing her. I DID NOT HURT HER AT ALL. I just held her and firmly told her to calm down. It worked! She stopped acting up and started acting like she respects me! I can honestly say my 2 poodles are 99% perfectly behaved! And some "trainers" trash Cesar but their own dogs misbehave (chew shoes etc) and don't have a reliable recall! If my dog gets out the front door, I KNOW I can say FIRMLY : "let's go home RIGHT NOW!!!!!" And they put their heads down and wag tails and come right back in the house! (acting sorry) and then I give them treats and kisses! I think it's totally ok to tell a dog "AH-AH!!" or "No! You can't do that, baby!" To let them know you dislike what they are doing. They'll learn to not do it. 

So yes I do believe in being the pack leader , that does not mean abuse, pain or anything bad, it only means they need to respect me, I'm their momma and this is my house, my rules! (And the rules are FOR THEIR SAFETY) And they are very happy and they are NOT afraid of me as some people might say that being firm may cause that.

Now, I am not saying to pin a dog down if he/she already has aggression issues, but I do believe in setting boundaries and rules early on, when they are puppies so nothing escalates!
And if one doesn't know enough about training and doesn't know the dog well they shouldn't try methods they are not familiar with either. 

And I think people here were way too hard on Teddy's mom. You can't possibly know everything, especially in the beginning it's very confusing when you read so many contradictory information on training. I really believe she was trying to do what she believe would the best for Teddy and unfortunately it didn't work out. But I also wouldn't have left a dog with strangers and children , if he/she had not been socialized enough around children and he/she had not had experience being apart from the owner with strangers successfully before.

But the point is, Teddy's mom is trying. And that is more than many owners out there do, she seems interested in reading and learning more and also took all the harsh criticism without responding back with the same "harshness" she received. Some people get scared away from PoodleForum because of how harsh some members can be and that defeats the purpose doesn't it?! 

So... I wish Teddy and her mom the best and my personal experience is that It's best to read read read read and eventually make decisions on what works best for your dog.


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## SilverSpoo (Jan 15, 2014)

The only thing I am going to add to this thread, for Teddy's mom is that there is NOTHING wrong with leaving a dog in a crate. The human emotion is that we feel like we wouldn't want to be confined, so we project that onto our dogs. To a dog that has been trained from the beginning that the crate is a wonderful safe place to be, they are very content there.

As long as you provide proper stimulation and exercise in the hours you are home, there is nothing wrong with crating a dog every day of its life.

My (very high energy) poodle is just over one, and she RUNS into her kennel each night at about 10pm and waits for me to shut the door so she can go to bed. If I don't shut the door she will come out, and give me a look like what are you doing... then go back in. Her kennel is her "doggy zen" zone.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

SilverSpoo said:


> The only thing I am going to add to this thread, for Teddy's mom is that there is NOTHING wrong with leaving a dog in a crate. The human emotion is that we feel like we wouldn't want to be confined, so we project that onto our dogs. To a dog that has been trained from the beginning that the crate is a wonderful safe place to be, they are very content there.
> 
> As long as you provide proper stimulation and exercise in the hours you are home, there is nothing wrong with crating a dog every day of its life.
> 
> My (very high energy) poodle is just over one, and she RUNS into her kennel each night at about 10pm and waits for me to shut the door so she can go to bed. If I don't shut the door she will come out, and give me a look like what are you doing... then go back in. Her kennel is her "doggy zen" zone.


My poodles love their crates too, I trained them that the crate means "nap time" curtains closed, lights off and they go to sleep. I tell them "let's go upstairs" and they take off to the second floor and walk straight into their crates. I don't even need to say "get in your box" anymore.
I put them in their crate when I can't supervise them, when I have to run an errand etc...

but I just don't like leaving them for more than 2 hours, 4 hours max. during the day. (My personal feelings about it)

But they sleep fine in their crates through the night.  

I think "nap time" in their crate is an extremely important thing to train them to do. 



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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

fjm said:


> _"i'm saying, cut the baloney and, for some, stop being hypocrites. with the best will in the world, people will make mistakes. that's not an excuse to beat them about the head - once again, what some claim they would never do to a dog, they would do to a fellow dog owner? share with people what you know or think you know, direct them to training videos, etc., but stop putting down others at pf who have found their own way to success with their dogs. "_
> 
> What we have seen on this thread is a copy book example of what can happen when someone who knows little about dogs and dog behaviour copies the methods demonstrated by CM - a frightened dog, a bitten human, a worried owner, and a potentially dangerous situation for adults, children and the dog. I don't think anyone has beaten the OP up - on the contrary, we have recognised that she has acted quickly and sensibly to remove her dog from that situation, recognising the danger to everyone.
> 
> I do not think any of the trainers that I admire mentioned by patk have ever endorsed CM's methods - what they have done is sought to engage with him in an attempt to mitigate the damage his popularity has done, after a great deal of soul searching in case that engagement should be interpreted as approval. Of course forceful punishment can work as a training method - but all the evidence from research indicates that it is at best no more effective than reward based methods, and often less so, while being much, much more likely to cause long term physical and behavioural problems. With simple, safe methods available that have been proven in the laboratory and in the field over and over again, why on earth would anyone advocate an approach that has no basis in research, no proven efficacy, and has resulted in numerous traumatised dogs and butten humans?!


i believe this is deflecting. i quoted jean donaldson above and she clearly does not endorse cesar millan. but she made an important point: certification does not mean competence. and one may use positive reinforcement and be incompetent, just as one may use "punishment" and be competent. i believe electric shock collars are considered to be "punishment," but highly competent people use them at the lowest levels to work their dogs at a distance. one owner at pf stated she used them to work with a deaf boxer that was otherwise probably doing to end up euthranized. to demean and discard all such efforts because they don't fit into the positive reinforcement box makes no sense to me.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> If you're going to expound about me, at least get the facts straight first. My breeder did not train my dog. I trained my dog. My breeder is also a professional handler and handled him in the show. My breeder taught a handling class which shows people how to handle a dog in the show ring, how to stack them up on the table etc...nothing else. anyone at pf can look up the thread in which you mention your breeder's training methods (whether for show or otherwise). you even wondered whether you should back away from letting him show your dog. but you didn't, and it is also clear he showed your puppy, and doubtless many other toy poodles, using the same method. and how old did you say your puppy was again when he became a champion?
> 
> Yes, every opportunity to criticize what I find is abusive techniques, I will. And yes, my distaste for bullying dogs is always warranted.
> 
> ...


no one should have to apologize to anyone at pf for relying on any one trainer or method. people who come here are smart enough to begin with. they will learn what works and doesn't - for their dog, because not everything works for every dog. but of course, they will only learn if they stay. and if you start off by telling them (by implication) how stupid and ignorant they are, well, few are stupid enough to hang around for that kind of abuse.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I didn't like how he told puppies, "no!" too firmly imo when teaching them to stand still on the table when stacking. I told him I don't train that way and I will teach him to stand and stack my own way...that I want to do agility some day and use methods that keep a dog forward thinking rather than stopping or shutting off a behavior, but rewarding the behavior I do like in baby steps and squeezing off the unwanted behavior by making the wanted behavior pay off too well to do anything but. He didn't do that anymore at those times where he would stack him, and in fact, has complimented me on how well Matisse is doing. As far a the choke collar, I already explained that. He loves dogs, gives my boys kisses when we come to class and isn't hard on them at all or other dogs. My first impression wasn't entirely spot on. He rewards a lot but his timing is off. And he is not rough with the choke collar. So, I came to the conclusion that my dog would be fine with his handling of him and my training of him. And he has shown no ill effects and in fact part of the reason he's so appealing is that he is utterly full of joy when he trots around the ring and comes up to greet the judge. He's got a dynamite temperament, is beautiful and has wonderful action.

He got his championship at seven and a half months old. 

Now why I even wrote all that is a mystery to me. 

I have never told anyone off. I explain what is wrong with a particular method and why it's causing what it's causing. I am by profession a behavior specialist. I've had a lot of education in behavior and lots of years of practice. I've made a living at it. I have not attacked anyone personally who is a member here. It would be preferable to not be bullied by you. But you have to do what you have to do. I will not be responding anymore on this thread or any where you follow me, as _that_ is becoming very apparent. I like this forum and I hope I can add something to it to those who like anything I write. I have enjoyment and appreciation of much of what I've learned from others when I have time to get on here, For those who do not like to read what I write, don't. That's okay too.







Be careful.

li·bel [lahy-buhl] Show IPA 


noun 

1. 

Law. 

a. 

defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures. 


b. 

the act or crime of publishing it. 


c. 

a formal written declaration or statement, as one containing the allegations of a plaintiff or the grounds of a charge. 


2. 

anything that is defamatory or that maliciously or damagingly misrepresents. 

verb (used with object), li·beled, li·bel·ing or ( especially British ) li·belled, li·bel·ling. 

3. 

to publish a libel against. 


4. 

to misrepresent damagingly. 


5. 

to institute suit against by a libel, as in an admiralty court. 


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

This thread has been reported several times now... Unless someone has NEW information to share for the OP directly related to HER situation, please do not :deadhorse:

Play nice or take it to private messages.

Thank you!

Barb
Moderator


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Leo's Teddy*: Hope you and Teddy are happily busy together. :dog:+ And that you'll pop in at some point and let us know how you're doing. I think you can tell you have _lots _of people here eager to support you with advice and encouragement. We want to celebrate your successes with you, so when the spirit moves you, please let us Teddy fans hear from you. Keep having fun with your sweet little toy!*:wave:*


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

*Update l:love2: :love2:*

Thank you *Chagall's Mom* :love2:. Special shot-outs to *fjm* :love2:& *poodlebeguilded* :love2:

Teddy is doing so well nowadays with positive reinforcement. Tpoos are so smart and perceptive. They understand our tones and verbal cues so well. Physical domineering is really not necessary. I make it a case to remind my friends about this and they are happy to see a relaxed affectionate Teddy around them.

Here are some photos of Teddy. I brought her to get her first booster shot today. Either the vet was darn good or Teddy was a real trooper, she was nonchalantly relaxed throughout the whole session.


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## Leo's Teddy (Jan 26, 2013)

Oops, the photos were up side down. I rotated them right side up here:


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Oh, she's adorable. I am so glad you're seeing improvements already!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

So glad to hear she is doing so well - and whata brave little dog she is!


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## JanL27 (Jan 19, 2014)

Whilst I would love to add my own couple of points to the CM debate, I won't because we've been asked not to :smile:

I will say RESPECT to Leo's Teddy and Teddy, both are brave and generous :adore:


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

JanL27 said:


> Whilst I would love to add my own couple of points to the CM debate, I won't because we've been asked not to :smile:
> 
> I will say RESPECT to Leo's Teddy and Teddy, both are brave and generous :adore:


Yes--I've decided to file CM under "politics" and "religion" in the "don't go there" category. 

I think we all do the best we know how, and we arrive there by different routes.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

That is a wonderful sign that she was so good at the vet. She is a brave little dog, thank you for the update.


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