# Is this a purebred poodle puppy?



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

The photos show different puppies, some male and some female. But I can tell they are from Family Affair Standard Poodles. There have been quite a few threads about them on this forum that you probably want to read. Search bar is your friend! I do think it is a full breed poodle, but maybe not one that conforms to the standard. Here are some thoughts on the breeder.

My impression is that they are a very high volume breeder, and they state on the website that they have ~45 dogs. All puppies and adults are kept in separate kennels and they employ staff to help. They do not title their dogs in anything, so there is no guarantee that they are breeding dogs with great temperament. They do not breed to standard, and seem to have no care at all for breeding correct structure, arguing that pet people don't care about that. They do seem to do some health testing on their dogs (I haven't looked in full). They have a RIDICULOUS number of puppies for sale. Way more than I am comfortable with.

To give you the best chance of ending up with a healthy, physically sound dog with the temperament you want, I would advise going for a different sort of breeder. Titles on the parents (conformation, obedience, performance sports) prove physical soundness and good temperament. Most good hobby breeders do not make a profit from it. They breed because they love the dogs. They usually breed very few litters because they need to give puppies lots of attention and socialization. Most good breeders' puppies already have homes lined up before they are born. They work very carefully to socialize the puppies to new sights, feelings, and sounds, and they make sure each puppy is matched with an owner based on temperament. And they are there to give constant support to new owners if anything arises.

I would think about what sort of breeder you want to work with.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

What you don't see on the website


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Thank you Rose n Poos for the behind the scenes view. At least they have large runs and appear relatively clean, but it isn’t the type of breeder I want to support.

I recently got a poodle puppy after much research, and am very happy with my choice. The incredible beauty and stable temperament of a well bred dog is an invaluable commodity. That said, you will pay good money for it too! I am so thankful for the knowledge I gained from this forum in helping me make the right choice.

I have a mini so can’t help you with recommendations, but I would lean into this forum and also contact the Poodle Club of America representative in your area, this is the link for that. I spoke to the rep in my area and it was helpful. It’s a big decision. 








PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America


On this page...Breeder Referral ContactsPCA National Breeder Members Lists Breeder Referral Contacts Breeder referral West of the Mississippi: Mary OlundPhone: (415) 457-4648Send email to: [email protected] calls from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time Breeder referral...




poodleclubofamerica.org


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

What is your geographic search area? We may be able to recommend breeders.

I used guidelines from Versatility in Poodles to help choose a breeder. Before that I knew little about the criteria to look for (most people put more time into buying a car than a dog). I was lucky to find an available pup quickly, but for my next spoo I’ll commit to a breeder’s wait list as far in advance as I can. Those first weeks are so important to a dog’s development.






Home - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.


Versatility In Poodles, Inc.




vipoodle.org


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I don’t know this breeder but if the puppies are purebred, they are very poorly bred. Not what a poodle puppy should look like. I would definitely stay away !


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Not a good idea to purchase a puppy from them. You could be looking at a lot of health issues. There is information posted on this forum to help people buy puppies from reputable breeders. I have yet to go through this process because my poodle came from a rescue, but you should expect to pay (around) double the price of what that breeder is charging. 

Please don't give a breeder like that money. Go to a reputable breeder or get a dog from a rescue.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Those pictures made my heart sink. This is NOT a good breeder, it is a puppy mill!


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## Jbean (Feb 18, 2019)

Two of our puppies were from a breeder who is generally well respected here, but who, at least back then, was a pretty high volume breeder. She wanted to send both pups home just before 8 weeks. Two of our poodle puppies came from "non-breeders"; a highly respected poodle handler and a woman who is crazy for dog sports. Both of those poodles came home with us at 11-12 weeks. Although we loved all of them and still miss the ones who are gone, raising the two puppies who were socialized properly was so, so, much easier. I don't think that it was just good socialization either, the underlying temperaments are/were better.

Our new guy, whose parents are both multi-sport dogs is as easy a dog as I have ever trained — he actively tries to understand what I want him to do— one of his litter-sisters got a CD at 7 months! Our first poodle, from the show handler, would have been a great show dog. Not only did she have the looks and an outgoing, attention-drawing attitude, but she also had a laid back, indolent nature that would have made near-endless grooming and traveling easy. They had both been bred for those purposes. Ironically, the other two dogs were substantially more expensive.


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## S_Brittany12 (Jan 4, 2020)

Thank you guys! I had a weird feeling about them but wasn't positive where it was coming from. After reading more about them and seeing those pictures, It is upsetting and I will not be purchasing a puppy from Family Affairs. If anyone has a Reputable breeder on the East Coast that you could recommend, I would love to get more information so I could possibly get on a waiting list/pick up a puppy.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

S_Brittany12 said:


> Thank you guys! I had a weird feeling about them but wasn't positive where it was coming from. After reading more about them and seeing those pictures, It is upsetting and I will not be purchasing a puppy from Family Affairs. If anyone has a Reputable breeder on the East Coast that you could recommend, I would love to get more information so I could possibly get on a waiting list/pick up a puppy.


 I am so glad that you had the intuition and asked us here! Catherine got her boy Javelin at Madela, who is an outstanding breeder on the East Coast (CT, I believe). 

Also, please read this: Find A Poodle - Versatility In Poodles, Inc. (scooterscout also posted, but it is such a good website!)


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

S_Brittany12 said:


> Thank you guys! I had a weird feeling about them but wasn't positive where it was coming from. After reading more about them and seeing those pictures, It is upsetting and I will not be purchasing a puppy from Family Affairs. If anyone has a Reputable breeder on the East Coast that you could recommend, I would love to get more information so I could possibly get on a waiting list/pick up a puppy.


So glad to hear! There is nothing like getting a pup from a great breeder! I have a minipoo so I don't know about standards, but I'm sure others will have recommendations. As far as prices go, good spoo breeders will typically charge $1500-3000, but I would expect to pay $2-2.5k if I was looking. But I would not make a decision based on price. The saying is that you pay the breeder or you pay the vet. You will never regret paying more for a good pup. Good breeders put so much money into their dogs that they are lucky if they break even even with the prices they charge.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Those pictures make me cringe at the least way of responding. And yes MaizieFrosty is correct my boy Javelin is from Madela whose foundation dogs are Ale Kai. Javelin's grandfather is Ale Kai Mikimoto on Fifth. I would also recommend Scheherazade in New Jersey, and CaliSun down in one or the other of the Carolinas.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

I'm getting late to this thread. I googled their name, and they have videos, below is one I watched. Their breeding stock don't appear to be house dogs (too many), and their outdoor individual crates are somewhat small, but I'll guess from their land the video that they spend most of their days outside. They're located in NC. I see them treated more like horses than what we like to think of preferred poodle care, and noticed most don't meet the highest standard of the breed in body and facial structure, or what we'd consider a well-bred poodle. 

It turns out they have a reason for that, see what they say on their site, quoted below, in the last few sentences, and the entire write was fascinating. 

I'm also relentless proponent of DNA testing, and checked their FAQ page covered this under the question, "What do you do to prevent genetic defects in your Standard Poodles?" It answers the above I noted too. The bold font is theirs, but I broke it down to several paragraphs for readability:

"A: DIVERSITY! DIVERSITY! DIVERSITY! Diversity is *our goal and is it obtained by the way we choose to breed the blood lines in our* *Standard Poodles. Diversity produces a low COI* in our Standard Poodle puppies. COI stands for Coefficient of Inbreeding (small gene pool). Essentially, it measures the common ancestors of dam and sire, and indicates the probability of how genetically similar they are.

The *following link explains the importance of low COI in determining the* *amount of genetic health issues.* A Beginner’s Guide to COI | Dog Breed Health*. High COI in the STANDARD POODLE is the result of trying to attain* *and keep the Poodle Club of America standard that is written for AKC. W*e sacrifice complete control of that exact AKC show look and select our breeding stock for more random qualities of beauty, temperament and most important health*. The other factor causing high COI (small gene pool) in the breed is breeding for specific colors. *You may have read earlier on our website that we are able to produce every color accepted by AKC. Many people have inbreed inside the same color lineage to retain that “perfect color” but unfortunately this is one of the causes for the many genetic defects.

To obtain diversity we have crossed up solid colors with other solid colors that have very little or no common genetic background. An example of this is, mixing our brown line with our red line. Now some breeders would gasp with disgust because this can produce a liver nose on an apricot or red. To some breeders this is a NO, NO. A liver nose is even accepted in the AKC show ring, it is not desirable but is accepted. There are lots of people including us that think a red or apricot Standard Poodle with a liver nose and amber eyes has a beautiful expression. (see pictures below).

This is one example of where some breeders seek to avoid a cosmetic trait like a liver nose and forgo the diversity which lessens the chance of a genetic defect in certain blood line. We have also done the same with our parties and phantoms. We have sacrificed having a whole litter of partis or phantoms by crossing our solids with our partis or phantoms. When you do this you will only have a certain percentage and sometime no partis or phantoms in the litter. This type breeding can take several generations but this process waters down or diversifies the very small gene pool of the partis and phantoms and therefore reducing the chance of genetic defects in these colors.

*We have most recently been blessed to add a very old and healthy bloodline from Canen Standard Poodles from the UK. We have introduced this line crossed with a very diversified Russian line into our Silvers, normally a very high COI color. We also have another breeding from the Canen line to enhance the health of our Browns & Blacks. Shirley Bell bred a large bone robust Standard Poodle for over 60 years. The introduction of these line into ours is greatly reducing the COI in our puppies. *

Our breeding practices may produce some undesirable conformation or cosmetic traits (according to AKC standards) but our main goal is to enrich the very small gene bank of the Standard Poodle pedigrees which is and will continue to be the best weapon against genetic disorders."

****

Now this is a point of view I have haven't seen elsewhere. I'd prefer a home raised poodle with clear DNA and a low COI that visually meets the standard of the breed, but find their breeding program and ideas worthy of discussion.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Whew! I've been reading more on their FAQ's page, and spotted several other unusual ideas that are pretty foreign to me. Definitely strikes me as a farm environment from throw back days with elements of some knowledge of genetics _that doesn't go quite far enough_.

*Strictly in terms of genetics*, my opinion is they sacrificed good body conformation/ structure with achieving they lowest possible COI. This is unfortunate to me b/c they produce so many. It's not like they're of, say for example, Arreau standard poodle beauty and elegance. More like "Cute dog. Is that a poodle?"

I also think their DNA testing needs to be updated for breeding parents rather than relying on the accuracy of grandparents or great grandparents of puppies - and the results ideally would be posted on the DNA sites or OFA for every sire and dam (which few breeders do, even the "best"). With so many dogs over so many years, paternity may not be 100% reliable in situations where all of them are let out to play outside a lot.


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## Columbus (Dec 16, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> What you don't see on the website
> View attachment 463526
> 
> 
> ...


This is terrible: a puppy mill and I would avoid these at all cost. Should be reported!


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## JulesB (Mar 24, 2016)

S_Brittany12 said:


> I am on the search for a poodle puppy and came across this little one on a website for $1600. My question is, Do you guys think she is a purebred poodle? She is cute but I want to get a second opinion before contacting the breeder any further.


I would like to add a different perspective to the comments in this thread. Five years ago when I was looking to add another spoo to the family I checked with all the local breeders in NC. I wanted to be able to meet the breeders, parents, etc and to pick out my future performance dog. Before my search, I had meet a few spoos from Family Affair, one was a beautiful brown male that was training to be a service dog for child. The family came to the training club where I teach. The owner of the training club was a certified with Cause for Paw. This puppy had a great temperament, very intelligent and gentle. A coworker had gotten his spoo from Family Affair, again she had a solid temperament. Same for the others I met. I visited Family Affairs at least three times before putting a deposit on a puppy. I had a few requirements for a puppy. First, I wanted a performance dog as I do obedience and agility. Second, a solid temperament as with being a trainer I have meet numerous spoos whom were wonderful, but not the temperament I was looking for. Third, of course was health and lastly I wanted a female. I was hesitant about the size of their breeding, but after visiting and talking with the owner about how they operate and the care, health and socialization they put into the puppies, I was satisfied. The deposit I placed was for a female puppy from a litter of white spoos. When I went to pick my pup, none of the puppies was the ONE for me. They showed me a litter of silvers, which I was given first choice of the three girls. I went back when the pups were 5-6 weeks and picked out my girl. She was the one! I met both parents, dad was an import, outgoing, solid temperament, lovely dog. Mom was a lot like my 14 year spoo, Lexi who I have always consider the perfect dog! My puppy, Tori is now 4 years old, she has obedience and agility tiles in both UKC and AKC and is a certified therapy dog. Tori's brother is a UKC show champion and one of her sisters is a performance dog.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Knowing that poodles are family dogs, watching that video made me very sad. It's like the dogs are at a boarding facility. Also it looks like some of the poodles have "swaybacks" and can't that lead to back issues?


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## Cliff (Oct 10, 2018)

Wow. How disturbing are those photos. As a previous poster mentioned- that is a puppy mill. Also, poodles do not belong in outdoor kennels. They belong with their people.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Dogs4Life said:


> Knowing that poodles are family dogs, watching that video made me very sad. It's like the dogs are at a boarding facility. Also it looks like some of the poodles have "swaybacks" and can't that lead to back issues?


Yes! A boarding facility! That's a perfect description. Or a daytime doggie daycare. You've put your finger on why this place is such a shock b/c as your said, poodles are very much family dogs and this kind of setup is offensive to our sensibilities. .I also see number of their poodles have a body structure, particularly with their backs, that don't meet the Standard of the Breed. 

On a positive note, JulesB had an excellent experience with them and said it's parents have wonderful temperaments, puppy is now a certified therapy dog. Better: the sire is an UK import from good lines so it sounds like Family Affair is moving in the direction of selectively trying to breed out the faults, presumably including their backs, while keeping the nice temperaments and low COI.

*I wonder if Family Affair has ever considered contracting with individuals for their breeding poodles, where the foster parents gets to keep the poodle after three or four litters? That would be a major win for the poodles who would then grow up and live in a home with their family for life.*


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## Kravitz (Jan 7, 2020)

I definitely do not recommend Family Affair Standard Poodles as I firmly believe they are a Puppy Mill. Not only do they have over 183 Poodle puppies available as of (1-8-20) but they are also breeding a lot of West Highland White Terriers (Arrowhead Acres West Highland Terriers) and had 53 Westie puppies born just in one month alone (11/11/19 to 12-11-19) all together on their property and this does not include the rest of the year. And they say they have about "4-5" people to help socialize with the puppies. I just don't see how 236+ puppies could get important one on one time/socialization from only 5 people, someone is more than likely going to get left out. The majority of their current breeding dogs are lacking a lot of the desired characteristics described in the akc breed standard regardless of their "preventing genetic defects" claims.
I have included some screenshots from FA's Facebook of people who have already purchased a poodle and it seems like that they are having some concerns/problems such as it being anti-social, afraid of men,beginning signs of Seizures, fleas, demodex mange,constantly itchy and evans syndrome. 

A while back I was almost convinced by their website's facade and almost purchased one of their puppies. I was looking at him and his siblings on their website and they were saying how "healthy" and loving he was. I watched a video of him with a few of his littermates and noticed he was walking weird as if something was wrong/hurting him, maybe his hips, legs,rear end? I don't know but I bailed and did not purchase him. Out of curiosity and still looking for a poodle, I returned to the website a little over a month later, he was still available but now was place under Special Needs. It's extremely upsetting and concerning to me that I was about to unknowingly purchase a special needs puppy that Family Affairs was claiming to be just fine._Update_ Another puppy (5 month old female) that my sister was interested in has been put into the special needs category after advertising for 3 months without notifying people that she is special needs. 

Also on their Youtube channel where they post videos of the puppies and a few more of the videos are concerning to me as well. *When the lady is picking up the puppies to show them to the camera, some of them open their mouth and are clearly expressing a face of pain and discomfort. (weirdly enough I have only seen this with their red puppies) *others are terrified of refuse to interact with the lady at all and just stand there as if they have never seen a human or been outside of their cage, dogs howling sadly and the lady showing their westie puppies with all short nails except a very long distinct pinky nail.
At the end of the day people will get a puppy where they want but I just wanted to put this out there incase someone needed to see this.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Kravitz thank you for that in depth look at their operation. I agree the videos of them interacting with puppies are very upsetting. Those puppies did not look "laid back and cuddly" as they described. They looked terrified. They seem to go through dogs very rapidly. The mother of the puppies that OP was asking about has already been adopted out. They also seem to regularly produce dogs with health problems that they adopt as special needs, but they still charge $800 for them! The video of that parti male is one of their special needs dogs that clearly has really bad hips or something. I agree it is a puppy mill, though it may not be as bad as some. There are entirely too many puppies for staff to look after properly. And they do not look well socialized.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I couldn't watch past the first couple of minutes  If Peggy had been stressed like that in the familiar surroundings of her breeder's arms and property, I'd have run the other way. It looks like they've never been handled by that person before.....or maybe really any person??

Actually reminds me a lot of how Peggy responded at our vet's office, two days after we got her: stressed to the point of shutting down. Then, when the vet scooped her up, she finally said TOO MUCH! and started growling. That alone almost convinced us to send her back. 

Of course, I'm glad we didn't. But it wouldn't have been wrong if we had. It's very strange to see puppies behaving that way. Major socialization fail. 

I feel very sad for the dogs being churned out by this unscrupulous breeder and also for the unwitting folks who bring them home. Buying from a breeder shouldn't require rehabilitation the way a rescue might. Shame on this business and the systems that allow it to thrive.


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## Kravitz (Jan 7, 2020)

They recently uploaded a video and 2 of the red puppies are just laying on the floor and shaking  I feel really bad that the they are having to go through all of that. It just isn't okay. .


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Kravitz said:


> They recently uploaded a video and 2 of the red puppies are just laying on the floor and shaking  I feel really bad that the they are having to go through all of that. It just isn't okay. .


I don't know why they would even upload that video. It looks like animal abuse. They do not look comfortable being picked up at all, and their behavior isn't just submissive. It's like an animal in shock.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> I don't know why they would even upload that video. It looks like animal abuse. They do not look comfortable being picked up at all, and their behavior isn't just submissive. It's like an animal in shock.


It had me in tears. And do you hear all the barking? What a horror show 

What is WRONG with these people.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Wow. I imagine that people who aren't very familiar with dog body language might think these pups are "nice and calm" but they seem frozen in terror to me. 
And the numbers that you found Kravitz are mind-blowing- in a bad way.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Raindrops said:


> I don't know why they would even upload that video. It looks like animal abuse. They do not look comfortable being picked up at all, and their behavior isn't just submissive. It's like an animal in shock.


Oh my, I have never ever in my life and I've been around many many puppies , seen pups just lying on the floor like that. Obviously they have not had any human contact. They are frozen in fear. They should be jumping nd climbing all over her. So sad.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I lost my comment when writing but this animal abuse and it is appalling ! How can we report her ? How does it work, there has to be a way. Why are people letting this go on ? :-(


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I agree the puppies seem frozen in fear. It tore me apart to watch a couple of the videos. And I have to admit that her “kissing” the puppies just made me sick! They must be the only ones who don’t realize how upsetting these videos are. I think I’d have to go there, just to have an animal control officer in tow, hopefully to take the puppies and dogs and charge them with abuse.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Listening to all of those dogs barking in the background, no wonder those poor babies are so anxious. That is what they constantly hear!


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

The problem with calling animal control is they more than likely cannot do a thing as long as the dogs are sheltered, have food and water and are good on vaccinations. I imagine they are, its sad the dogs are raised like livestock, we who are true animal lovers see that as inhumane, however it goes on all the time and the best way to eliminate it is to not purchase.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Mufar42 said:


> The problem with calling animal control is they more than likely cannot do a thing as long as the dogs are sheltered, have food and water and are good on vaccinations. I imagine they are, its sad the dogs are raised like livestock, we who are true animal lovers see that as inhumane, however it goes on all the time and the best way to eliminate it is to not purchase.


That’s true, but isn’t there a certain limit to the number of dogs she can own ? She might be in violation, or maybe she doesn’t even have a permit (not likely, but possible).


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

No I don't think there is a limit on the number of dogs one can own. Now she likely must have a permit to own a business.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Anyone knows what state this « breeder » is in ?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Mufar42 said:


> No I don't think there is a limit on the number of dogs one can own. Now she likely must have a permit to own a business.


Where we live, they'd require a business license and also a kennel permit for having more than ten adult dogs and selling more than three litters per year.

I imagine these rules vary quite a bit, though. For example, in Toronto (where I used to live) three dogs maximum can be kept as pets.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

This breeder is in North Carolina, a state known for its lax regulations on Dog breeding. Here is a link to an article on that. 

A while ago, a high volume show breeder of toys was convicted of animal cruelty in Virginia and had her AKC privileges suspended for ten years. She moved to NC and is still breeding, just not registering with AKC any longer. Judging from number of puppies of hers I see advertised ina Facebook group, it doesn’t appear she scaled down her operation.

I do not bring this up to dredge up that old discussion, just to point out that NC is a safe haven for puppy mills. It’s not the only state either.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

That is awful


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Agreed Peggythe parti,


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

Carolinek said:


> This breeder is in North Carolina, a state known for its lax regulations on Dog breeding. Here is a link to an article on that.
> 
> A while ago, a high volume show breeder of toys was convicted of animal cruelty in Virginia and had her AKC privileges suspended for ten years. She moved to NC and is still breeding, just not registering with AKC any longer. Judging from number of puppies of hers I see advertised ina Facebook group, it doesn’t appear she scaled down her operation.
> 
> I do not bring this up to dredge up that old discussion, just to point out that NC is a safe haven for puppy mills. It’s not the only state either.


The nutter show miller convicted of cruelty absolutely moved to a different state known for a certain "laxness" with respect to "breeders" so she could continue to churn out and sell puppies at high volume. Her story was much the same as Family Affair, she had well over a hundred dogs, most living in kennels (and not luxury accommodation kennels by any means, as evidenced by pictures from her own ad when she was selling her house in VA so she could move out of state). From a couple of pics I saw of the kennels in her new place, she built the same type of cold and impersonal kennel housing to continue her practices. 

There is NO way a miller like FA can have over 200 puppies (and have another breed in the mix too) and have them all adequately socialized unless they are employing masses of people full time - and if they are, they are clearly awful at their jobs. I can show you many, many videos of properly socialized puppies raised by responsible and caring breeders who have one or 2 litters a year and give them all kinds of early and frequent socialization and exposure to all kinds of experiences. You won't see ONE of them frozen while someone handles them, shivering in fear on a mat or screaming in terror at being touched. And the fact that they have scripture quoted all over their website, like that makes them somehow good and "Godly" people, while trying to disguise health issues and when they can't sell them to someone before they become apparent they then dump them into their "special needs" group and still try to sell them for $$$ makes me laugh even harder at the SO far from responsible breeders they are.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

The special needs group is particularly strange, and sad. I would think a responsible breeder would 

1. Be embarrassed by producing a boatload of unhealthy puppies, and
2. Want to place them in a loving home with someone willing to cover the extensive vet costs, not “sell” them.

I understand an unhealthy pup can be born despite best laid plans, but they shouldn’t be another way to churn a profit.

When I picked Gracie up at 8 weeks, the litter of five was in the kitchen in an ex pen. All of them were lobbying for our attention, and there was not a shy one in the bunch. Gracie was (and is) a confident, almost fearless, and healthy pup. I am so glad I chose her breeder wisely.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

And this is how we limit the "breeders" and I use that term loosely , we do not buy from them, we educate...we learn where to buy dogs from. Because of the education many families will no longer buy from pet stores, hence you get those who try and sell on their own by having tons of breeding dogs. The puppies cannot be socialized because there are just too many of them and to hire a person to strictly work with the pups and keep them social would defeat their profit margins. Eventually as people learn this too will be lessened. 
I don't like laws for everything we do in life, it takes away our freedoms but at the same time it allows this to happen. So folks out there looking for a pup, be wise and chose carefully as this animal will be with you for its lifetime, maybe 15 or more years.


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## BabetteH (May 1, 2019)

I find it sad, when people say "but I/my friend/husband's cousin's brother got a healthy, happy puppy from there". Of course, you and the pup might be lucky and they don't develop health problems. But what about the majority of the puppies? 

It's like telling somebody they should run a red light because you know somebody who did, and they didn't have an accident. Lucky them, but not great advice.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

BabetteH said:


> I find it sad, when people say "but I/my friend/husband's cousin's brother got a healthy, happy puppy from there". Of course, you and the pup might be lucky and they don't develop health problems. But what about the majority of the puppies?
> 
> It's like telling somebody they should run a red light because you know somebody who did, and they didn't have an accident. Lucky them, but not great advice.


Yep. Or "That guy's not abusive! He's ALWAYS been nice to me."


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

That's definitely true. I mean certainly you could go and buy a puppy from a place like this and it might grow up happy and healthy, provided you train it well. But that's in spite of its beginnings, not because of them. I think it's worth considering whether a breeder is somebody you want to support in addition to the question of whether a dog they produced is a good fit for you. Many wonderful dogs come from terrible situations. But paying money to those who are responsible is a disservice to the animals harmed.

I do think there is a problem with the public not knowing what a good breeder is. They know puppy mills are bad. But what is good? What makes somebody a backyard breeder vs a responsible hobby breeder? The average puppy buyer has no idea where to start. I do think that the AKC needs to do more to increase public awareness of what responsible breeding should look like.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Kravitz said:


> They recently uploaded a video and 2 of the red puppies are just laying on the floor and shaking  I feel really bad that the they are having to go through all of that. It just isn't okay. .


Late getting to this thread and hopping mad. What in the heck is that stuff on the backs of the puppies in the video on Post 12 ?! Are those open sores? Warts? Cutaneous Horns? And the brown stuff... is that crap?


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Vita said:


> Late getting to this thread and hopping mad. What in the heck is that stuff on the backs of the puppies in the video on Post 12 ?! Are those open sores? Warts? Cutaneous Horns? And the brown stuff... is that crap?


They put colored nail polish on the dogs' backs to ID them. I think it's a bizarre way of doing that.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

When I read this thread a couple hours ago, I entered it the thread on page 2, and didn't realize it was the same thread I read and unfortunately responded to nearly a week ago from page 1. While the earlier presentation was far from optimal breeding, it wasn't the gut punch that came later on page 2 with additional info and videos brought to our attention by Kravitz. 183 dogs? Few staff people? Pups that look scared when held with tails down? Etc etc etc. I am horrified. Thank you, Kravitz.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Absolutely Raindrops, for me too, it’s about who you want to support. I’ve had (and have) great dogs that came from dubious beginnings, but I didn’t purchase them from the puppy mill, internet site, pet store, etc. 

Yes, someone may wind up with a nice pet by the luck of the draw, but buying that puppy sentences the hundreds of dogs used as breeding stock to lives of misery. That back story is always there in the eyes of your sweet pet.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

They appear to be in North Carolina and it looks as if one has to have a permit if you have more that 4 or so dogs (also cats). I think if one of us is in North Carolina or knows someone in North Carolina then the permit status can be looked up and the local SPCA could be brought in to look into things there. As I said earlier this is really cringe worthy at a minimum and I will now add truly horrifying to my list of descriptors.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

NC Animal Welfare Complaint Form


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## JennaLei (Nov 4, 2019)

I am far from an expert on breeding but I have looked at this place in the past so I was curious. I had some time on my hands this morning so I made a list of all the dams, sires, pups, special needs/retirees currently listed on their site. Mind you, they had a sale last week ($500 off list price) so they had more a week ago than now. Here are the current numbers by my count:

Active Sires-11
Active Dams-31
Pups- 92 (from 24 litters)
Special Needs/Retiring-16
=150 dogs total

Of the 24 litters for sale: 
10 dams listed as adopted
10 dams listed as active
3 dams listed for retirement
1 mentioned in previous post as deceased (onyx)

Of the 24 litters for sale:
10 born in dec
5 born in nov
5 born in oct
2 born in sept
2 born in july

This is from their standards site. Not sure on the numbers from their westies.

Sent from Tapatalk


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

JennaLei said:


> I am far from an expert on breeding but I have looked at this place in the past so I was curious. I had some time on my hands this morning so I made a list of all the dams, sires, pups, special needs/retirees currently listed on their site. Mind you, they had a sale last week ($500 off list price) so they had more a week ago than now. Here are the current numbers by my count:


Interesting numbers. Seems like their pups aren't selling very quickly.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

I'm in eastern Tennessee. When we looked for puppies most of those available were in North Carolina. They flood the local marketplace. We were looking for a pup raised in the house with the family so we lucked out. It scares me to think we might have driven all the way to NC to have to walk away.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Dianaleez said:


> I'm in eastern Tennessee. When we looked for puppies most of those available were in North Carolina. They flood the local marketplace. We were looking for a pup raised in the house with the family so we lucked out. It scares me to think we might have driven all the way to NC to have to walk away.


Haha I actually drove 12 hours to get Misha from Tennessee! Funny how things work.


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