# What color is our puppy, phantom or agouti?



## Stacyd12 (Sep 3, 2018)

Hello! We recently just added our 3rd pup to our family, our second standard poodle. His name is Osmium, and he is 10 weeks old. At first glance, he looks to meet the phantom markings. However, over the last few days I have noticed some lighter coloring on the top of his head and his ears so while he was sleeping on me last night I took closer pictures of his head. The tan points on his legs still have some black tips, but I imagine that is just because they look mostly black with some small tan points when they are born. I am not noticing this lighter color along his back or anything yet, but the top of his head is becoming pretty noticeable. I have read that is is not possible to have a sable phantom genetically, so I am curious what some of your experienced people may think he will clear to when he is an adult. I am really hoping his eyebrows will remain as noticeable as they are now, we feel like they remind us of the Wizard of Oz, hence his name! I would be grateful for any wisdom that could be imparted my way!


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

No idea about color, but he is super cute! Congrats


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## EVpoodle (Sep 25, 2018)

He is super cute! He reminds me of the Wizard of Oz to. No idea about color either.


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## Stacyd12 (Sep 3, 2018)

Thank you! We are definitely in love with him!


MaizieFrosty said:


> No idea about color, but he is super cute! Congrats


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## SamieNorman (Aug 9, 2019)

I am no expert.... BUT my guess would have to be phantom. He has the markings exactly where they would on a phantom (like the chest). That would be my guess. I know you say his color is changing so this may be a result of some "bad" color like they call it a "bad black" when the black changes. My SPoo is a mystery case and I will never know what colors he is and I am certain he likely doesn't have fully pure poodle bloods lines but that's no issue for me. So maybe back in your pups blood line there is a "doodle" mix of some sort?? But at first glance his marking placement is just like a phantom, but not sure with a color change, this could just be his coat changing.


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## SamieNorman (Aug 9, 2019)

Looking further into "agouti" I found this small description

"Agouti, though the most dominant in the series, is not terribly common in the breed, especially in standards. Agouti poodles are breathtakingly beautiful. Certain poodles are sometimes mistakenly referred to as "phantom sables". This isn't genetically possible, and oftentimes these dogs are in fact agouti, and may have characteristics of both a phantom and sable dog. A dog needs only one copy of agouti to express the pattern; aw/aw, aw/ay, aw/at, or aw/a "





POODLE COLORS & PATTERNS | LH Poodles







 www.lhpoodles.com





So I am wondering if your dog just has strong phantom characteristics but is truly agouti. Either way he is beautiful!!!


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## Stacyd12 (Sep 3, 2018)

SamieNorman said:


> Looking further into "agouti" I found this small description
> 
> "Agouti, though the most dominant in the series, is not terribly common in the breed, especially in standards. Agouti poodles are breathtakingly beautiful. Certain poodles are sometimes mistakenly referred to as "phantom sables". This isn't genetically possible, and oftentimes these dogs are in fact agouti, and may have characteristics of both a phantom and sable dog. A dog needs only one copy of agouti to express the pattern; aw/aw, aw/ay, aw/at, or aw/a "
> 
> ...


I read the same thing, and that is what made me wonder if his color was actually Agouti. I have no doubt the top of his head appears to be sable, but he was born with the tan markings in their proper spots so I did not think this was the case of a sable just appearing to be a phantom as they clear. I am so extremely excited to see how he changes as he grows up, he is stunningly beautiful for sure. I am just really hoping he doesn't lose those awesome eyebrows! haha.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

He’s so cute, I hope he keeps his markings too. You could do a DNA test, it might help. What did the breeder tell you?


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## Stacyd12 (Sep 3, 2018)

Skylar said:


> He’s so cute, I hope he keeps his markings too. You could do a DNA test, it might help. What did the breeder tell you?


The breeder called him a phantom!


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Agouti is a specific site on a gene on a chromosome. It interacts with other specific genes which allow or doesn't allow particular coat colors to be expressed. You can read more about there here.

Your poodle Osmium is a phantom, and his coat color will likely continue to change for awhile, but not so much that he won't look like a phantom in the future. I'd bet the bank that his eyebrows and other phantom points will remain as noticeable as they are now.

Btw, congrats on your new puppy. I notice the Christmas theme in the backgrounds of two of his photos, so you may want consider entering our fun PF Holiday Photo Contest here.


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## SamieNorman (Aug 9, 2019)

Stacyd12 said:


> I read the same thing, and that is what made me wonder if his color was actually Agouti. I have no doubt the top of his head appears to be sable, but he was born with the tan markings in their proper spots so I did not think this was the case of a sable just appearing to be a phantom as they clear. I am so extremely excited to see how he changes as he grows up, he is stunningly beautiful for sure. I am just really hoping he doesn't lose those awesome eyebrows! haha.


I am in love with his coloring! I think that the eyebrows will stay since to looks like his roots are staying the tan coloring (from what the photos look like). I will tell you though my pup is ever changing in his coloring!! I will be posting an update in his 52 Weeks sometime soon. But he is always having something new happen to his coat with each passing month and I find it so beautiful to watch. 

Congrats on your new beautiful baby!!! Please do the 52 Weeks photos. I know we would love to see his coloring change and watch him grow up!!!


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## Stacyd12 (Sep 3, 2018)

Vita said:


> Agouti is a specific site on a gene on a chromosome. It interacts with other specific genes which allow or doesn't allow particular coat colors to be expressed. You can read more about there here.
> 
> Your poodle Osmium is a phantom, and his coat color will likely continue to change for awhile, but not so much that he won't look like a phantom in the future. I'd bet the bank that his eyebrows and other phantom points will remain as noticeable as they are now.
> 
> Btw, congrats on your new puppy. I notice the Christmas theme in the backgrounds of two of his photos, so you may want consider entering our fun PF Holiday Photo Contest here.


Thank you! I am excited to see how he changes over time, it is definitely fun to watch and guess as they grow! And thanks for the contest link, I entered him!


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## Beaches1 (Jul 9, 2017)

Stacyd12 said:


> Hello! We recently just added our 3rd pup to our family, our second standard poodle. His name is Osmium, and he is 10 weeks old. At first glance, he looks to meet the phantom markings. However, over the last few days I have noticed some lighter coloring on the top of his head and his ears so while he was sleeping on me last night I took closer pictures of his head. The tan points on his legs still have some black tips, but I imagine that is just because they look mostly black with some small tan points when they are born. I am not noticing this lighter color along his back or anything yet, but the top of his head is becoming pretty noticeable. I have read that is is not possible to have a sable phantom genetically, so I am curious what some of your experienced people may think he will clear to when he is an adult. I am really hoping his eyebrows will remain as noticeable as they are now, we feel like they remind us of the Wizard of Oz, hence his name! I would be grateful for any wisdom that could be imparted my way!
> 
> View attachment 463187
> View attachment 463188
> ...





SamieNorman said:


> Looking further into "agouti" I found this small description
> 
> "Agouti, though the most dominant in the series, is not terribly common in the breed, especially in standards. Agouti poodles are breathtakingly beautiful. Certain poodles are sometimes mistakenly referred to as "phantom sables". This isn't genetically possible, and oftentimes these dogs are in fact agouti, and may have characteristics of both a phantom and sable dog. A dog needs only one copy of agouti to express the pattern; aw/aw, aw/ay, aw/at, or aw/a "
> 
> ...





Stacyd12 said:


> The breeder called him a phantom!
> [/QUOTE





Stacyd12 said:


> Thank you! I am excited to see how he changes over time, it is definitely fun to watch and guess as they grow! And thanks for the contest link, I entered him!



Colour him gorgeous Stacyd12


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## BellasMomZ (Nov 14, 2019)

Bella is my first puppy and first poodle. She always had her phantom markings but she was an inky black when we first got her At 9weeks, now at 6 months old she seems to be a blue and the hair on her tk has turned grey, with cream on her ears.

He may lighten a bit more as he grows, you’ll see the roots of his hairs getting lighter as his growth progresses. You can never really be sure unless you test for it.
Poodles are full of surprises.


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## suzettesmama (Dec 28, 2019)

Looks like a phantom sable  just gorgeous!!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

I am not a color expert but my understanding is that agouti has the gene the makes the color of the hair striped (it turn the gene off and on as the coat grows). It is common in wild animals (wolves, rabbits, etc) because it is great camouflage. (If he were the sable as everyone knows the ends of the hair would be black). So if you were to look at a strand of your pup's hair and see stripes in the strand that would be agouti.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Bernedoodle said:


> I am not a color expert but my understanding is that agouti has the gene the makes the color of the hair striped (it turn the gene off and on as the coat grows). It is common in wild animals (wolves, rabbits, etc) because it is great camouflage. (If he were the sable as everyone knows the ends of the hair would be black). So if you were to look at a strand of your pup's hair and see stripes in the strand that would be agouti.


That puppy is now two years old.  Maybe the OP will come back and post an updated pic. But for now I’m going to close this thread to avoid any confusion.


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