# For those sitting on the fence as to training



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I didn't want to derail a thread about marking behavior so I started this one. Someone mentioned something positive about the "dog whisperer" and how successful he is. I have to differ with that. I have had so many clients who called on me to fix the mess they caused by using his force based, dominance based, flooding and suppression techniques. I've worked with loads of aggressive dogs and I'd say a good deal of them were created by the methods he promotes. I've seen him bitten so many times on that show when he so could have avoided it by using positive reinforcement type methods. 

His methods may appear to work because in that hour long show, it all looks good. But I know that many or most of these hard aggression cases come back later to bite their owners in the behind. (figuratively and literally) This is why animal behaviorists, veterinary behaviorists, whole university behavior departments are so against his ways. He's successful all right...with Hollywood schmooze. And then too, I guess it depends on one's definition of success. I wouldn't be happy with his results. I've seen too many good behaviorists rehab aggressive dogs that are harder cases than some of his. And they don't do it with flooding, intimidation, threats or any of the other force he uses.

I just wanted to post this, not to argue with those here who are strong in their beliefs because their not going to look at newer stuff.... but for those who may be lurking or who haven't had dogs or much experience and don't know which way to go with their own dogs. 

So, if you're so inclined, have a look.


Evaluating Cesar Millan's Dog Rehabilitation Methods


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I hope that you did not think that I, in any way shape or form support Caesar Milan's brutality - because I absolutely do not, and if you think I do, then I think that maybe you are shutting down and not listening to what I am saying. Anyone who knows me would tell you that I am a "crazy poodle lady" who babbles at her dogs like they were human infants - but the fact is that I can do that because the are incredible dogs who got the message about bad behavior the very first times that they may have tried them over a decade ago!


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## Servicepoodlemomma (Jun 22, 2013)

I agree with his teachings such as the power of the pack and making sure a dog is physically and mentally stimulated, but I also don't agree with his methods. Force, intimidation, and some of what I would call downright abuse can only suppress the behavior, eventually the dog is going to snap because it hasn't learned positive behavior that can only be learned through reward based methods. Stopping a behavior does nothing if you don't replace it with a positive behavior!

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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I hope that you did not think that I, in any way shape or form support Caesar Milan's brutality - because I absolutely do not, and if you think I do, then I think that maybe you are shutting down and not listening to what I am saying. Anyone who knows me would tell you that I am a "crazy poodle lady" who babbles at her dogs like they were human infants - but the fact is that I can do that because the are incredible dogs who got the message about bad behavior the very first times that they may have tried them over a decade ago!
> 
> 
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I don't know where you got that this thread or rather, the mention of unkind methods was directed toward you or for your benefit specifically. It was positively NOT. For the time that I have been on this forum, I have gotten the impression that you adore your dogs and I see the care you give them, including the breeder that you're so crazy about. I haven't seen you mention ever anything about thinking it's okay to mistreat dogs, such as I think Cesar Milan does...perhaps without meaning to, but nevertheless, he does. I do not agree however, with using positive punishment, physical or psychological. I don't think dogs need it. After all, they train wild jackals in zoos to come to the bars of their cage for injections and train dolphins all kinds of things without the use of positive punishment, shock collars, or loud voices. Certainly, we can train the more biddable domestic dog that evolved along side us without those things. (?) 

This topic here is meant to be a general discussion, not an attack on any one person here. I am trying to show what I feel is a superior way to go about getting behavior we want from our dogs. And a way that has some very good sources to back it up. 

I am particularly interested in promoting positive methods for those who may not have a stance yet or are perhaps new dog owners with little behavior training. 

I find it disheartening that so many people will follow along with Cesar Milan (I don't know anyone here who is gung ho for him) because he's such a big TV, Hollywood guy. But he has zero credentials, no animal behavior education, no training of any kind in the field he's messing with. Many people believe him and try his methodology and philosophy (the dominance panacea) on their dogs and then call behaviorists and the like to come and try to repair the damage. I've experienced this over and over and so have many fellow trainers I've spoken with. Their phones are ringing off the hook with people who punish their dogs too strongly and don't know how dogs work. Then they wind up with problems....real problems, fearfulness, aggression and more. 

But even at a milder level, there is some real fall-out with the use of positive punishment. There are reasons....things people don't think about where punishment can be paired with something in the environment, can be associated with the wrong thing. The target behavior can be missed and the dog doesn't know, without absolute consistency what the owner/trainer means. This is very common to be inconsistent. The intensity of the punishment must be the same every time and for the same behavior. If it's too mild, it can build a punishment callous...the dog becomes habituated to it and the person has to get increasingly more stern. The list goes on and on. So, my thoughts are, why not use PR training techniques so that those things can be avoided. 

Do I use aversives? Of course. I remove things the dog likes, I ignore attention seeking behavior, I don't give them something they want until they give me the behavior I want. I control their resources in other words. But I can whisper cues to my dogs because that is how they're taught. I don't need to use a firm voice because that would be meaningless to them. I don't have to be strong or stern because they learn to behave the way I like them to by teaching them, not by being domineering. 

Why I mostly stay clear of positive punishment type stuff is because it tends to reduce the trying of new behaviors and I want my dogs to keep trying stuff to make me click. Dogs trained with PR methods learn better because they offer more behaviors in general. And guess what. People who train using PR methods also become trained better...become better trainers because their dogs teach THEM. LOL. Absolutely. We learn the same way.


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## Ellyisme (Jul 17, 2012)

I heard that he somewhat sedates the dogs on his show too. I don't know if that's true or not, but to me that is largely setting someone up for failure before they even turn on the tv to watch his show. You should never sedate a dog like that. What happens when the sedative wears off after Cesar leaves?


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

(EDIT: I don't watch Cezar's show)

Oh my....... I can't help it.... I have to respond :-/ I should just leave it alone but I believe this "other side" should be shown too. I believe in gentle but firm correction. My dogs are pretty much perfect when it comes to behavior, they don't do anything wrong, such as common issues like counter surfing, trash digging, resource guarding.. Non of that! And I trained them by being FIRM, not abusive, just a firm and loud "AH-AH!" When they were about to do something they are not supposed to... Or in more serious situations, as an example : when Lou was about 5 months old she went through a "testing me phase" when she would try hard to see what she could get away with. She started jumping around biting my hands (not hard) pulling in my clothes basically acting crazy and not listening. And I did this: (please don't hate me LOL) I grabbed her GENTLY but firmly and laid her down on her side and held her very gently on her side while petting her and saying slowly " calm down" low voice like: "caaaaaaaaaalm doooooooown" and held the back of her neck and petted her gently while holding her till she gave me that big sigh and released all that energy, than I slowly started petting her and kissing her and telling her she is a good girl with yummy treats. (That happened out of instinct I just did that it of the blue) After that anytime she would start trying to grab something of the coffee table or act crazy Id approach her and say ah-ah and she would lay on her side and wag her tail slowly and I'd pet her slowly and tell her "good girl" with high pitched voice. So basically nowadays if she even thinks about misbehaving I don't need to do anything, just look at her with a serious face and she lays on her side and licks me, and if I walk away and sit on the couch she comes and lays on my lap to be petted as if she is sorry 

Ok this may be all wrong, but it worked for us ! 

She is an extremely well behaved dog. She thanks me for her food even, she acts like I'm The Leader and she is happy that I am in control and provide a safe environment for her and that I'm the boss in this house but I will provide many toys, food, cuddles, treats, in return.

Apollo was the same way, I was lucky that he is an amazingly well behaved pup, but he was about 13 months old, had been with us for about a month and He was testing me and not listening to me at all and I grabbed him gently the skin on back of his neck and said AH-AH!! And he laid down and I gave him hugs and kisses and told him he was a good boy with happy voice and we hugged for a few seconds.

If I walk toward my dogs, for instance, when they have a bully stick, they immediately drop it and back up a bit wagging tails, even if don't want to take it. (I always give them a treat in exchange for the bully sticks)

I believe they are dogs (even though I treat them like they are my children) so I try to act like their momma-dog would. And I believe she would put her mouth around their neck and pick them up if they were biting on her tail. 

So basically I believe there is such thing as a pack hierarchy, and my poodles love being at the bottom, they feel safe.

I DO NOT EVER HURT THEM, not even a little bit. But I am firm and sometimes a bit loud. 

Some dogs can't be trained with just hugs, kisses and treats. they need to know that in my house it's my rules, basically. 
And what I mean by that is gentle but firm corrections with great reward when they do well  

I'm not saying this as gospel. I am not a professional trainer so I am not educated on this matter , but It worked for us. This is based on personal experience only. 
I also wouldn't have tried this with a dog that already has severe issues. I just did it with Lou when she was little to start teaching her boundaries. And with Apollo when he came into a new environment, where he needed to learn to follow the rules

Ps. Apollo did growl a bit when I first got him and I'd hold his muzzle gently and say: No growl! And kiss his muzzle . He hasn't growled at anyone but Lou ever again. 

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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

*The dominance controversy. (very good)*

The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I got the idea that it was directed at me because you put it up right after I posted on the marking thread that you referenced in the title, so I assumed that it was your response to what I wrote there!
But, it's OK - I don't disagree with your philosophy, I don't have a philosophy, I'm like Lou, I just do what I do based upon a lifetime of living with dogs (literally from the moment that I was born), and it works - I have GREAT DOGS who don't even think about doing anything wrong, so they have a great life and never hear a harsh word.


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## Servicepoodlemomma (Jun 22, 2013)

Lou said:


> (EDIT: I don't watch Cezar's show)
> 
> Oh my....... I can't help it.... I have to respond :-/ I should just leave it alone but I believe this "other side" should be shown too. I believe in gentle but firm correction. My dogs are pretty much perfect when it comes to behavior, they don't do anything wrong, such as common issues like counter surfing, trash digging, resource guarding.. Non of that! And I trained them by being FIRM, not abusive, just a firm and loud "AH-AH!" When they were about to do something they are not supposed to... Or in more serious situations, as an example : when Lou was about 5 months old she went through a "testing me phase" when she would try hard to see what she could get away with. She started jumping around biting my hands (not hard) pulling in my clothes basically acting crazy and not listening. And I did this: (please don't hate me LOL) I grabbed her GENTLY but firmly and laid her down on her side and held her very gently on her side while petting her and saying slowly " calm down" low voice like: "caaaaaaaaaalm doooooooown" and held the back of her neck and petted her gently while holding her till she gave me that big sigh and released all that energy, than I slowly started petting her and kissing her and telling her she is a good girl with yummy treats. (That happened out of instinct I just did that it of the blue) After that anytime she would start trying to grab something of the coffee table or act crazy Id approach her and say ah-ah and she would lay on her side and wag her tail slowly and I'd pet her slowly and tell her "good girl" with high pitched voice. So basically nowadays if she even thinks about misbehaving I don't need to do anything, just look at her with a serious face and she lays on her side and licks me, and if I walk away and sit on the couch she comes and lays on my lap to be petted as if she is sorry
> 
> ...


This is how I train as well. I do clicker training when I am training for a specific behavior, but if one of my dogs is doing something it shouldn't a sharp "Ah-Ah" is all it takes. On my Italian Greyhound I use a vibrating (not a shock! Basically like a pager) collar because she is deaf so I use that as a signal for her to look at me so I can tell her what I want. Right now I have 11 week old Dezba - So we have the puppy nipping, baby stage going on where it is my responsibility to teach her what is expected of her. 

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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

My experience is a combination of positive and correction. Racer is the first dog I have clicker trained but I used a marker word for behaviors with all 3. It seems that dogs reach a point where they know a behavior & know what is expected but they go through phases of testing you. For example, Racer suddenly could not sit in the building where he had been training/sitting for months. There were no changes (new dogs in class, new distractions, nothing physically wrong, etc.) It just seemed at this point he decided to test & see if he really needed to sit or not. I gently placed my hand on his rear end & rewarded when the sit came. I don't really see this as a correction but that being said, there are some behaviors that I will not tolerate, biting being one. My dogs are not allowed to put their mouths on me. There might be the occasional incidental contact when we are playing so that does not get corrected but anything other than that is likely to get a strong tone or an uh uh. Also I have used a prong collar. I feel like there is a time, place & correct way to use most training aids. Not everyone should use them & most of the people using them do not do so correctly. When using this I allowed him to "self correct." Meaning if he decided to jump away to go & visit he actually pinched himself. A silly "what happened" followed & when he gave me attention he got a treat(he was already working on eye contact being rewarded.) I do not advocate being cruel or a "pack order." Not to say that I don't see one with the dogs among themselves but I don't feel the need to be alpha or have my dogs be submissive to me in a down position with a correction. I want them to want to work & be cheerful about it. I think if a dog is submissive then that shows in their work ethic & personality. Not every method works for every dog. For example, I attended basic obedience training with a well known trainer. We worked on heel through 2 sessions. That is 3 months. She could not heel after all that time & the training was somewhat positive but also what seemed like it was pretty heavily correction based as well. With another trainer/friend of mine she took her from me one day. Literally 5 minutes later the dog was heeling with only positive reinforcement (no correction.) Of course we practiced a lot to reinforce and proof the behavior but she finally understood what was being asked & she heels beautifully. I have seen other dogs coming from this harsh trainer into agility & also out at obedience trials. Even the slightest deviation from perfection is met with a swift correction. I mean, if you are standing with your dog waiting to run a course in agility are you really going to correct them for looking away from you? Seriously it is that bad with these folks. It is also not conducive to being successful in agility as that really needs to be a game vs so much precision. 

Anyway, I feel positive training is preferable but correction can have its place as well.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think part of the reason that people poooh-pooh reward based training is that they see it as simply showering the dog with food, hugs and kisses, and do not recognise that it also includes aversives - it's just that the aversives do not include the use of force or physical punishment, but are more usually the withholding of something the dog really wants.

Do I believe reward based training is safer and more effective than correction based? Most certainly - I have seen the results of both. Do I use interruptors - Ah-ah!, etc? Yes, followed by praise and a reward for stopping whatever it was. Do I correct my dogs? Yes - Poppy knows that jumping out of the car before being told to will result in a shocked intake of breath that has her jumping straight back in again; rude behaviour of any kind means being leashed and walked away from the fun; barking at visitors or the postman outside means being instantly ordered back into the house, etc, etc. Do I ever yell at my dogs, lose patience, scold them? Yes - I am an imperfect primate, and that is what we do! And I use force-free aversives - withholding the much wanted thing until they give me polite behaviour. 

But all of this is in a context of mutual trust. Taking Lou's example of holding her dog down. There is a huge difference between gently restraining a pup who trusts you and welcomes your touch, and pinning down a scared dog who has no reason to think you anything other than the canine equivalent of a homicidal maniac. I worked hard when mine were pups to show them over and over again that I would never deliberately hurt them, that I would keep them safe, and that I could be relied upon to provide food, fun and frolics. Poppy in particular was a sensitive puppy - I don't think I even used a firm tone to her for the first weeks, let alone a harsh one. In return I expect them to follow the house rules, even when those seem pointless to dogs. And because of that deep foundation of mutual trust they quickly forgive me if I accidentally tread on a paw, or briefly lose my rag and yell, just as their own minor transgressions are quickly forgiven and forgotten.

I think that often people who have spent their whole lives around dogs have deeply internalised some of these things. They know without thinking about it when a pup needs gentling into confidence, when a bolshy adolescent needs a rather firmer approach, when to insist on the rules and when to cut some slack. They may even have the experience and timing to use very occasional physical punishment effectively, if not always safely. But in the hands of less experienced and knowledgeable people forceful methods can too often be disastrous, as we have seen over and over again on this board. Why, when there are methods that are proven through research and experience to be effective, safe and enjoyable for all concerned, would anyone advocate a less reliable, less safe, less enjoyable approach, and one moreover that brings out all that is worst in our human character?


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Just wanted to add something:
When I gently held Lou down rubbing the skin of the back if her neck, it's pretty much the same thing as holding a dog by the collar and sides of body when he/she is trying to pull on the leash and jump on someone or something. 
The only difference is with Lou being on her side was like a time-out to totally change her focus. And the rubbing the back of her neck was massaging/relaxing/ but also something a momma-dog would do. I did this when Lou was a puppy and slid off her harness and started acting like she was gonna the off running. I said a AH-AH firmly. Aproached her looking in her eyes and did the lay down thing. She calmed down in a couple seconds and let me put the harness back on. For her safety I'm glad I did that, she could have ran into the street with cars going by fast. But she listened because I was firm and then gave he tons of love and yummy treats for being a good girl. 
I love that she is so eager to please. 

This may not work for other dogs but it did work for my puppy. I would be really careful on what dog to so this with, you have to have a very good understanding of their behavior.

But like I mentioned before I only had to do the "lay her down" a couple times. She would lay down on her own after that, all I had to do is look at her with a serious face and approach her. Or even say "smiling" : what are u doing Miss Lou?! (With happy voice) and she will lay on her side too and then I just pet her


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## BKLD (Apr 29, 2012)

There are two things that I agree with Cesar on: energy and exercise. 

When I talk about energy, I'm mostly talking about anxiety. Dogs can feed off of negative emotions like anxiety, or so I believe, and if you're not calm and assertive (not aggressive), they may feel the need to act out more than they already do. Dogs need a leader, not a dictator like I view Cesar as, but a benevolent guide. So, as anxious as you're feeling about your dog's aggressive behavior (and I'm actually dealing with this right now, since I've got a year old dog who is aggressive in some situations) you need to learn to control your emotions and learn to take charge of the situation.

Then, there's exercise. A tired dog is a happy dog, an under exercised dog will more likely be stressed and high strung. 

Those are the only two things that I can think of that I agree with Cesar about. The rest is garbage in my opinion. Gentle corrections and positive reinforcement are what I live by.


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## Milo :) (Mar 10, 2013)

My training style is similar to Lou's. 
I believe in catching the behavior before it happens (as much as you can). I used a firm "UH UH!" to prevent the behavior, or stop it if it already happened.

I believe the more restriction and guidance a dog endures as a puppy, the more freedom they will enjoy as an adult. 

Milo recently turned 1 on Saturday and I am pretty pleased with his behavior. All dogs are different, and our training style worked for us


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Milo :) said:


> My training style is similar to Lou's.
> I believe in catching the behavior before it happens (as much as you can). I used a firm "UH UH!" to prevent the behavior, or stop it if it already happened.
> 
> I believe the more restriction and guidance a dog endures as a puppy, the more freedom they will enjoy as an adult.
> ...


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Here is a video (I swear my house is not usually this messy , there are toys, blankets and laundry everywhere today! I let them play with socks and blankets hehehehe)

But this video is to show that my dogs are not afraid of me, as some may say I'm using intimidating force which is not true. But they do respect me and act like they know I'm the boss LOL
The video is an example of Apollo chewing the bully stick "outside" of the kong toy, which he knows he is not supposed to do  (but I let him get away with that because both my dogs learned to chew thoroughly before swallowing, so it's not a choking hazard anymore) But anyways... I approach him nicely but my intention is FIRM that he needs to spit it out, so I can put it back inside the kong toy. And he knows that, and because I was firm before, they now just behave! Hehe 
http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/L...E-4A40-A827-851A33003994_zps16cb33d3.mp4.html

http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/L...E-4A40-A827-851A33003994_zps16cb33d3.mp4.html




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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I use more the distraction technique and then showing an alternative for which the dog can be rewarded. (that's if he's already engaged in something I don't like) It is indeed better to prevent the no no in the first place when possible. The more the dog is able to practice the unwanted behavior, the more he is reinforced by it, so prevention _is_ the best medicine. But sometimes that just doesn't work out that way. I prefer to not startle the dog or risk a situation where he may not trust me explicitly. 

For example, yesterday Maurice was chewing on the fringe of my oriental rug. lol. I hadn't notice before so didn't prevent it. There he was just a gnawing away. Oy! So, I went over to him calmly and showed him a chewy bone that he could chew on and wiggled it away from that fringe part of the rug. He happily began chewing on that, lying in front of the heater that he likes. I told him how wonderful he was and that was that. He'll probably do it again, but if I watch him more carefully and intercept with a toy, he'll stop that soon enough. 

So, I prefer to show the dog what_ TO _do. I don't need to tell him what not to do so much. I just need him to not practice and get reinforced for chewing on that fringe. The list of what not to do is much longer than the list of what to do. If I picked everything they do that I don't like, I'd be telling them "NO" all the time and that is no good imo. It doesn't tell them what they can do, only what they can't do. Not enough information. 

Behavioral law (like gravity is a law of physics) is that the more a dog is reinforced for a behavior, the more likely it will occur again in the future. The less a dog is reinforced for a behavior, the more likely it will extinguish. Reinforce or prevent reinforcement. There is no need for punishment as in...._adding_ something to the dog's environment to stop behavior. Non-firm, non-startling interrupters will do. I can tell my dogs in a normal speaking voice, "here, chew this instead." (as long as it's something that IS reinforcing to them. And that unwanted behavior will extinguish in short order.

I use to train with more compulsion and a sterner voice back in the day. I've had dogs since 1958 when I was around 4...trained my first dog when I was 9 or 10 and have been interested ever since. That was the only thing there seemed to be back then. Choke collars, yanks, very firm voice at times, "NO!" And reward too. But when I got my Doberman, I found that he was very sensitive and also a dog you don't want to use a lot of punishment on. They tend to have a lower threshold for being at all sternly treated. So, that's when I flipped the switch and went to positive reinforcement. The "no, no, no," was getting us nowhere. He was hell on wheels as a puppy...very active...makes Matisse look like a sloth. (I'm always talking about how active_ he _is) So as soon as I stopped using "no" and "uh, uh" and started rewarding behavior I did like, preventing behavior I didn't like, using what I was learning in the science of animal behavior, (have had schooling) things made a 180 degree turnaround. And I haven't looked back since. It is like night and day...the difference between PR and compulsion. 

Yes, I too lose it sometimes, being a flailing, noisy primate and holler at them when they're all barking loudly. "Silence!!!" lol. But that's my own fault because I haven't trained them well enough to zip it...a work in progress. The Chihuahuas are better at stopping with "enough." A normal speaking voice. But I do lose it sometimes.

I do say, "eh-eh" if Jose` is about to eat poop because that is just too gross and his good "leave it" where poo is concerned has regressed...again, my fault for being lazy. Poop is a very strong motivator for him. He was VERY good before. 

So yes, I do tell them off once in a while. But I strive to use more scientific and sensible (in my view) ways to teach. But sometimes it's not about teaching, but about stopping something NOW that's very important. Yes, I see that in certain instances. Not ideal, (better would be to train) but reality nonetheless.

Oh Lord that was long, edited to add. Also, is anyone interested in the link I posted? Even if you don't agree with me doesn't mean you wouldn't find that interesting and very good. You're missing out on some good stuff.lol


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Lou, I'm going to watch your videos when I get back. I have errands plus Chulita is doing poorly...will probably need to take her to vet. 

But yeah...not every dog is going to perceive things the same way. It's just that you run less risk for fall out with PR vs. punishment. I think one develops better habits sticking with PR methods.

Will come back to view your videos later.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Lou, I'm going to watch your videos when I get back. I have errands plus Chulita is doing poorly...will probably need to take her to vet.
> 
> But yeah...not every dog is going to perceive things the same way. It's just that you run less risk for fall out with PR vs. punishment. I think one develops better habits sticking with PR methods.
> 
> Will come back to view your videos later.


Ok cool !
And I'm sorry to hear that dear  Hope Chulita feels better soon soon! Keep us posted, I hope it's nothing serious at all.
And thanks 


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Thank you Lou. It is serious. She has congestive heart failure and is having a rough time...needs another steroid shot most likely. But she's still happy and playful in between bouts. Arrrggggg. Thank you.

I just wanted to add another reason why I'm trying not to dampen in any way Matisses's outlook in any way, shape or form. No firm scoldings, just show him what _to_ do. And that's because he is going to be an agility *STAR*. LOL. He is so drivey and terribly enthusiastic about _everything_. So, anything that slows him or stops him in his tracks will not help to groom him for agility. Everything must be forward moving. Go, go, go. "here...let's do this instead." "come on, let's go" (away from the no no) lol. He will learn not to do those no nos because I will make sure they aren't reinforcing but that something else that I like IS. LOL.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

fjm said:


> I think part of the reason that people poooh-pooh reward based training is that they see it as simply showering the dog with food, hugs and kisses, and do not recognise that it also includes aversives - it's just that the aversives do not include the use of force or physical punishment, but are more usually the withholding of something the dog really wants.


i'm not going to pretend to have read every internet or other comment on this issue, but i don't get the sense that people generally diss reward based training. what i have seen is respectable trainers dissing the positive only claimants who totally ignore the other three quadrants of the operant conditioning module. and i've noticed off-putting screechy self-righteousness on the part of the positive only types. if some of those claimants are right, there must be more than one cesar millan out there, because so many of them have had to "save" dogs he ruined. 

one skeptic (but not a cesar millan fan) made a telling comment: sure you can train dolphins with reward based training to do all kinds of things. but that's the only way they get to eat; see if you can get the same results out in the ocean where they are uncaged and food is plentiful. i suspect that if we labeled this starvation based training, it might change a lot of our views. (and full disclosure: yes, i have doubted for a long time - well before coming upon this comment - our "humanity" in keeping dolphins and orcas captive.)

in the internet age where every charlatan and con man can claim any kind of degree and expertise and has free rein to advertise, a little skepticism is warranted. (by the way, a degree is not a guarantee of skill. i had a psychiatrist friend many years ago who told me he wasn't that good and added that i should always remember that one third of the doctors in the u.s. graduated in the bottom third of their class. and we see pet owners all the time at pf who no longer trust their vets and/or are advised to find another vet who is more up to date. same degree - dvm - not the same skills or trustworthiness.)

bottom line is that we who have "captive" dogs need to keep things in perspective if we want to able to keep our dogs rather than hand them over to a shelter or for rehoming. that's one reason to start with good breeding for health and temperament. after that, well, most folks at pf seem pretty sensible to me and are not into either sadistic dog training or screechy self-righteousness. they are looking for what works for properly "socializing" for human society a creature they consider to be a family member.


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

And for someone who is now feeling woefully inadequate, can I beg that there is actually a "training thread" or "sticky" so that these types of threads are more easily accessible to numpties like me who haven't got years of experience or wonderfully well behaved dogs?

It would be most useful if some of you super experienced members could put together something so there is an easy-reference guide with links and so on, a bit like the great ones on the grooming thread, and with options/suggestions on different methods... though obviously not the Cesar Milan style... 

Then maybe I will learn how to stop Pippin biting the hand that feeds her...


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

One of my friends has jumped on the Milan alpha roll bandwagon. She eventually convinced me to let her try it with Pogo, who is the more confident and resilient of my two dogs. (Snarky is called Snarky because he will snap when he's feeling insecure; no way would he be a good candidate for the experiment.)

So, Pogo is bombing around being a dork, and friend rolls him. It did stop him from being a dork for the next few minutes. However, I could tell he wasn't really thinking "I must be good, for the mighty pack leader has put me in my place." Rather, it was more of a "Woah, I'm upside down! How did that happen?" The next few minutes of peace were merely his effort to reassemble his broken train of thought. I probably could have achieved the same effect if I'd startled him by noisily pushing a galvanized trash can off the deck.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

cowpony, i haven't watched all of cesar millan, but of what i've seen, i've never witnessed the alpha roll being used on a dog just for "dorking around." i have seen him use it on dogs that are out of control - often fear aggressive - and will bite. 

anyway, re puppies and millan training, i thought it might be interesting for folks to read this by ian dunbar, who is often lauded as at the forefront of gentle puppy training and was one of the featured trainers in the millan book/tv production on this issue:

_My Contribution to Cesar Millan's New Book
Dr. Ian Dunbar | Thu, 09/16/2010 - 15:05

Cesar Millan’s new book — Cesar’s Rules — features a number of trainers describing a variety of reward-based dog training techniques. The book is both comprehensive and representative with chapters on history of training and learning theory (Bob Bailey), training dogs for TV and film (Mark Harden), off-leash lure/reward training (myself), gentle physical prompting (Martin Deeley), and cancer detection dogs at The Pine Street Clinic. Cesar Millan’s name and fame now showcase reward-based training techniques of other trainers to the dog-owning public. It’s kind of like a vestigial book version of Dog Star Daily’s America’s Dog Trainer.

Kelly, Jamie and I gave it a lot of thought before agreeing to volunteering our time to be interviewed — weighing up the pros and cons of association versus exposure. Obviously, any book with Cesar’s name on it is destined to be a best seller, no matter what the content. Since any content is guaranteed enormous exposure, we thought, why not have reward-based training techniques get the exposure. I was very reassured to find out that my respected colleague and good buddy Bob Bailey was also involved and I finally agreed to be interviewed and filmed after being given full veto power over the manuscript, photos and filming. However, with the exception of the photo (mentioned below), veto-power was unnecessary. In all the times that I have been interviewed and filmed, I have never had my words and actions presented so accurately — almost word for word.

I have always thought, that I can do so much more good for dogs by engaging those who use dog training techniques of which I strongly disapprove, rather than simply preaching to the choir. Having read the book, I am glad that I decided to be involved. I was given free rein to say what I liked and do what I liked — an extremely unusual arrangement when dealing with television production companies. I mentioned over and over that I consider touching a dog to be an earned privilege rather than a right and that training should always be off-leash and hands-off. I have always taught people, to never touch a dog to force him to comply but rather, to touch him afterwards as a reward if that’s what he enjoys. I have always taught people to try and see the dog’s point of view and to be patient and give the dog time when resolving behavior and temperament problems.

I sincerely hope that through this book so many more dog owners will be exposed to reward-based training techniques and specifically that they will get to enjoy the rewards of reward-based training. Namely, that people learn how to proactively teach their dogs what they would like them to do, rather than providing no instruction and then feeling the need to punish their dogs for breaking rules that they didn’t even know existed.

The interview was filmed and hopefully, it will show on TV so that Hugo’s speed and Dune’s reliability can help advertise the easiest, quickest and most enjoyable way to teach off-leash verbal control — lure/reward training. Cesar lure/reward trains his dog Junior using first food (not very effective) but then a tennis ball that instantly transforms the dog into a motivated guy. Then Cesar got to work with Hugo, starting with basic luring by teaching him in Spanish.

I have only two criticisms about the book. First, I don’t like the title because I usually let owners decide on their own rules for their own dog. I consider household and lifestyle rules to be a very personal choice. However, publishers, and not authors, choose book titles and obviously they want to choose a title that will sell the book. Second, there is a really silly choice of photo in the chapter on Hands-Off Dog Training with my hands on Dune’s collar. Duh!?! It looks like I am forcibly restraining Dune from goosing Cesar. I have been assured that this photograph will be replaced after the first printing._

so did cesar millan do this book to further his uncouth uneducated inhumane dog torturing agenda? i have no way of knowing.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I came across that book at the library and found it most interesting. I got the impression that Cesar was anxious during the interview with Ian Dunbar. He was certainly worried that his dogs wouldn't respond quickly and properly for Dunbar and greatly relieved when they did. In none of the interviews did he come across as arrogant or unpleasant. To the contrary, he seemed almost abashed at times to be in the presence of such well-known trainers.


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## marbury (May 1, 2013)

In my traditional role as devils advocate, I have to bring up that all our training methods are products of our upbringing. Take into consideration where Cesar came from, the types of dogs he was likely working with as a child, and how that shaped his training methods.
I believe that he uses a much wider array of training methods than he has had broadcast on his show. After all, would Super Nanny be as exciting to watch if the kids didn't have temper tantrums and just politely accepted a new way of life?


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

This is a wonderful thread ! I am older than dirt and have lived with a pack most of my life. Sometimes up to ten dogs. I have been repeatedly asked how I trained all the dogs to be so well behaved. My answer is that I only have to train the first two. After that the dogs do it for me. And it is true.

I started training in the days of Barbara Woodhouse and have been lucky enough to either work with or attend seminars given by most of the respected trainers from then until now. I have learned something of value from everyone of them. 

Every dog is different and every owner is different. Each dog has it's own personality and learning style. I believe in positive training, I also believe in rules boundaries and limitations. 


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

pandj said:


> This is a wonderful thread ! I am older than dirt and have lived with a pack most of my life. Sometimes up to ten dogs. I have been repeatedly asked how I trained all the dogs to be so well behaved. My answer is that I only have to train the first two. After that the dogs do it for me. And it is true.
> 
> I started training in the days of Barbara Woodhouse and have been lucky enough to either work with or attend seminars given by most of the respected trainers from then until now. I have learned something of value from everyone of them.
> 
> Every dog is different and every owner is different. Each dog has it's own personality and learning style. I believe in positive training, I also believe in rules boundaries and limitations.


:adore:

p.s. i'm kind of interested in living to be older than dirt, too!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

pandj said:


> This is a wonderful thread ! I am older than dirt and have lived with a pack most of my life. Sometimes up to ten dogs. I have been repeatedly asked how I trained all the dogs to be so well behaved. My answer is that I only have to train the first two. After that the dogs do it for me. And it is true.
> 
> I started training in the days of Barbara Woodhouse and have been lucky enough to either work with or attend seminars given by most of the respected trainers from then until now. I have learned something of value from everyone of them.
> 
> ...


I believe in those things too..."positive" training which produces rules and boundaries so naturally and easily. I love how I don't have to do anything too complicated in order to get well behaved dogs and how I don't have to worry too much about bad behavior because I don't pay too much attention to that, but instead keep busy on teaching them what I want in the way of behavior , skills etc...and the shenanigans sort of fade away. 

LOL. I remember Barbara Woodhouse too. I still say, "walkieeeeees?" (I'm old as dirt too) haha. And the Monks of New Skeet. Gosh, so archaic nowadays. Anyhow, I'm just so pleased how these newer, really effective methods are gaining so much ground, moving forward and away from some of those old, rougher methods.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Lou said:


> Here is a video (I swear my house is not usually this messy , there are toys, blankets and laundry everywhere today! I let them play with socks and blankets hehehehe)
> 
> But this video is to show that my dogs are not afraid of me, as some may say I'm using intimidating force which is not true. But they do respect me and act like they know I'm the boss LOL
> The video is an example of Apollo chewing the bully stick "outside" of the kong toy, which he knows he is not supposed to do  (but I let him get away with that because both my dogs learned to chew thoroughly before swallowing, so it's not a choking hazard anymore) But anyways... I approach him nicely but my intention is FIRM that he needs to spit it out, so I can put it back inside the kong toy. And he knows that, and because I was firm before, they now just behave! Hehe
> ...


Cute video! Yeah, don't see him shaking in his boots, even though your voice sounds very harsh. LOL. j/k. Your voice sounds like a fairy's voice. I don't see how it could become very scary. teehee

Puppies are something else again how they pick things up in their mouths like little toddlers. I think that was something I thought I better teach immediately, on their first day here...to drop and leave it. I mean, they picked up rocks, plant things, bark, you name it, a dropped pistachio shell....bad news. So, we got on it right away. I think they learned that in the same day I started it. Maybe a little refinement the second day.

Do you really think he has the cognitive ability to know that _you_ don't want him to chew the bully stick outside of the Kong? How did you first know when he knew that? What does he do to show you that he knows? I'm just curious and fascinated by dogs' behavior, cognitive abilities, whether or not they're empathetic enough to think about what we think about or want or if they just do things for some kind of payoff. Do they really care what we want? Or is it themselves and their wants that are prominent? Are they aware of themselves, as in do they have a sense of self? I think they'd have to have that to have a sense of another, right? All these things have so many differing views from scientists and just people. I've done some research into some of those things and some of the stuff they use to think a long time ago, they start to re-think lately. For instance, they've always said dogs don't recognize themselves in a mirror and that is supposedly the test of whether or not they possess a sense of self. I wonder though about that....not sure.

Anyhow, do you not want him to chew the bully stick outside of the Kong when it gets short? Or does it always have to be in the Kong? I never thought about doing that. But I take them away when they get to choking size. How did you teach him to only chew the bully stick when it's in the Kong? When did you know that he made the distinction?

Well enough of my rambling.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Kicking a dead horse here.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Wha????:afraid: Why did you say that?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Kicking a dead horse here.


lol! good point.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

What's wrong? I thought it was an interesting discussion. Well, I guess if you're tired of it...oh well.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> What's wrong? I thought it was an interesting discussion. Well, I guess if you're tired of it...oh well.


http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/17036-thoughts-about-cesar-millan.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/16475-cesar-millan.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/23-gener...oses-showcase-dangerous-training-methods.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/14433-rant-what-people.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/23-gener...fication-body-dog-trainers-behaviourists.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/21634-so-cesar-coming-town.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/20903-standard-poodle-dog-whisperer.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/8557-alpha-myth.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/8552-nickel-big-cesar-fan.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/4987-cesar-millan.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/7-general-off-topic-chat/4485-ummm-wow-interesting-poor-dog.html

Don't base my current opinion on what my older self commented on those threads back in the day, but this isn't a new topic.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

well he's a great straw man, isn't he? lol!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

[Q


LOL. I remember Barbara Woodhouse too. I still say, "walkieeeeees?" (I'm old as dirt too) haha. And the Monks of New Skeet. Gosh, so archaic nowadays. Anyhow, I'm just so pleased how these newer, really effective methods are gaining so much ground, moving forward and away from some of those old, rougher methods.[/QUOTE]

The one thing that I loved about the Monks was the way that they used to hold a puppy belly-up cradled in their palms up over the heads - give me a puppy who will trust a human to do that, and it will become the perfect dog!
That is the one thing that I MUST have in a puppy!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

On not chewing bully sticks out of the Kong - my two have a dog blanket spread on the sitting room floor when they have bones to chew. A visiting friend was astonished when Sophy, asked to "Keep it on the blanket, please, Sophy" moved her bone from the very edge towards the middle - my friend was quite convinced that the dog had understood the words. Which in a way she does - after many, many repetitions of me saying them while moving the bone!

Yes, we have had the CM discussion many times before, and I for one am cheered by how it has changed over the years. But there are still, unfortunately, innumerable training classes out there advocating forceful methods, so perhaps it is a message that needs to e reiterated at regular intervals!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

fjm said:


> On not chewing bully sticks out of the Kong - my two have a dog blanket spread on the sitting room floor when they have bones to chew. A visiting friend was astonished when Sophy, asked to "Keep it on the blanket, please, Sophy" moved her bone from the very edge towards the middle - my friend was quite convinced that the dog had understood the words. Which in a way she does - after many, many repetitions of me saying them while moving the bone!
> 
> Yes, we have had the CM discussion many times before, and I for one am cheered by how it has changed over the years. *But there are still, unfortunately, innumerable training classes out there advocating forceful methods, so perhaps it is a message that needs to e reiterated at regular intervals!*


I think too that it needs to be reiterated over and over. Remember this dog forum isn't only read by members that we're all familiar with. Loads of "guests" lurk and other searches will link to this. The more people who start thinking about how dogs deserve to be treated and look for more sensible training methods, the better, imo. It took decades to get the PR ball rolling and it took Cesar Milan a season to set it back several decades. (in the opinion of most behaviorists) And "trainers" who are even more abusive, like Brad Pattisonhttp://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=brad+pattison+video+abuse&FORM=VIRE11#view=detail&mid=F4669535A998BAFA32F0F4669535A998BAFA32F0

As far as being self righteous Pat, I am certainly not taking credit for the vast studies and work that has been done to find these new ways of teaching dogs. I use other peoples' developments based on science. I'm just pleased with the whole thing and hope that others will continue to move away from forced based and even abusive training methods and learn what I really believe are really better ways of dealing with dogs. I just want to share my own experiences, both professionally and at home. Isn't that what a forum is for? If a topic becomes too repetitious for anyone, there's no one making you talk about it. A person can drop out of a thread anytime. Since this has lost it's original intent, talking about training methods...the generalities, the specifics, perhaps sharing a video, peoples' experiences, schooling, whatever....it's basically trashed anyhow.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled, I'm glad u enjoyed the video and your comments made me giggle!!! Thanks! 

In the beginning I was afraid that they could choke on the last small remainder of a bully stick, so I started stuffing the bully stick in a kong, even if I had to stuff a few pieces together to make a tight fit. But as they chew sometimes it comes loose and falls out, and every single time it feel out and they started chewing it outside of the kong I'd say the same "command" (you're not supposed to do that....,,) and I use that sentence for anything such as if they pick up a piece of paper of the floor etc. So they learned and when the bully stick would came off the Kong I'd approach them 
and put it back in. So now I tell them "you're not supposed to do that..." and they spit it out. Like you saw Apollo do it in the video. 
The main thing for me is using the EXACT SAME COMMAND EVERY TIME  another example is Lou and Apollo bring their leash to me to signal that they need to go potty. But when I say "no,We were just out there!" Or "not right now, it's raining" they stop insisting with the leash  because otherwise they keep dropping the leash on my lap 
Below is the video when Lou was 4-5 months old (me training her to bring the leash to me , she learned in 2 days!  )
And Apollo learned by watching!! 

http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/L...u-bringherleashtogopottyoutsideday21.mp4.html
















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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

FJM, your description of keeping it on the blanket reminded me that for a time I was feeding raw, meaty bones to my dogs and I didn't want them to carry them into the living room. (this was when I lived in Idaho) Anyhow, I put some newspapers down on the kitchen floor and they'd start to carry the bones into the living room. I moved them back on the paper...about 4 times and they finally realized if they wanted to chew their bones, they'd have to stay put on the paper.

So, I guess it's the same thing. It just seemed so small...the Kong and the bone in the little hole. lol. But I know dogs do recognize very tiny details. So....I guess that explains it. Is that to keep those small parts of the bully stick from being swallowed to have it wedged into the Kong? I'm just trying to figure it out. lol.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> FJM, your description of keeping it on the blanket reminded me that for a time I was feeding raw, meaty bones to my dogs and I didn't want them to carry them into the living room. (this was when I lived in Idaho) Anyhow, I put some newspapers down on the kitchen floor and they'd start to carry the bones into the living room. I moved them back on the paper...about 4 times and they finally realized if they wanted to chew their bones, they'd have to stay put on the paper.
> 
> So, I guess it's the same thing. It just seemed so small...the Kong and the bone in the little hole. lol. But I know dogs do recognize very tiny details. So....I guess that explains it. Is that to keep those small parts of the bully stick from being swallowed to have it wedged into the Kong? I'm just trying to figure it out. lol.


Yes I stuff the bully stick into the kong so when it gets small they can't get to it,(choking hazard) it's just stuck inside and they can't eat it. to get it out to throw it away I shove a screwdriver through the hole in the back of the kong and push it out. Then put a new big bully stuck in. (It has to be a tight fit or it doesn't work)


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Lou said:


> Yes I stuff the bully stick into the kong so when it gets small they can't get to it,(choking hazard) it's just stuck inside and they can't eat it. to get it out to throw it away I shove a screwdriver through the hole in the back of the kong and push it out. Then put a new big bully stuck in. (It has to be a tight fit or it doesn't work)
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


LOL. That post belongs in that thread about all the things we do or go through for our Poodles. I can just see you working it out with a screw driver, like a mechanic at work. heehee


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Lou said:


> Poodlebeguiled, I'm glad u enjoyed the video and your comments made me giggle!!! Thanks!
> 
> In the beginning I was afraid that they could choke on the last small remainder of a bully stick, so I started stuffing the bully stick in a kong, even if I had to stuff a few pieces together to make a tight fit. But as they chew sometimes it comes loose and falls out, and every single time it feel out and they started chewing it outside of the kong I'd say the same "command" (you're not supposed to do that....,,) and I use that sentence for anything such as if they pick up a piece of paper of the floor etc. So they learned and when the bully stick would came off the Kong I'd approach them
> and put it back in. So now I tell them "you're not supposed to do that..." and they spit it out. Like you saw Apollo do it in the video.
> ...


I completely almost missed this. Didn't see it before. How very cute! Well done. What a smart cookie!


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> LOL. That post belongs in that thread about all the things we do or go through for our Poodles. I can just see you working it out with a screw driver, like a mechanic at work. heehee


Hahahahaha thanks!! You wanna see something even more absurd? I hold their bully sticks for them to chew because it's easier for them hehehehe 
I got off topic here, sorry. But it's still about training!! ...Them Training me! HHHAHAHA












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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I have never seen a C. Milan show. I use to watch Barbara Woodward and I have the monks of Skye book. I also say walkees as it sounds so happy. I have never felt comfortable with negative methods. I am not confident in my knowledge to apply correctly and feel I may do more harm than good. It is impossible to completely avoid the negative but mine are pretty mild. I instinctively gasp when my dog does something wrong. Since it is reflexive it has the benefit of being perfectly timed. I will sometimes use no or a brief time out. For me I find concentrating on verbal reinforcements, hand signals and of course treating with a toy or treat works best.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> As far as being self righteous Pat, I am certainly not taking credit for the vast studies and work that has been done to find these new ways of teaching dogs. I use other peoples' developments based on science. I'm just pleased with the whole thing and hope that others will continue to move away from forced based and even abusive training methods and learn what I really believe are really better ways of dealing with dogs. I just want to share my own experiences, both professionally and at home. Isn't that what a forum is for? If a topic becomes too repetitious for anyone, there's no one making you talk about it. A person can drop out of a thread anytime. Since this has lost it's original intent, talking about training methods...the generalities, the specifics, perhaps sharing a video, peoples' experiences, schooling, whatever....it's basically trashed anyhow.


the thread was actually trashed by its author. it is one thing to share ideas. it is another to imply that people who don't do exactly as you do are somehow lesser beings. why should anyone give special respect to someone as a dog trainer who does not give respect to her fellow humans and their variety and diversity? in fact, sophia yin, whom you quote so profusely, is the expert who said she would use a shock collar if necessary to save a dog. does that mean everyone should go out and use shock collars? or alpha roll their dogs? or lift a dog by the tail to stop a fight (something patricia mcconnell advocates, which i think most agree constitutes use of force)? or that everyone would? no. it is a matter of understanding that there are many tools available. some are best left to people with special skills, not regular dog owners like many of us. but the owners at pf who do use shock collars successfully (and several have testified to first testing on themselves the ones they do use) are not somehow less than you in caring for their dogs and trying to find a way for them to survive in human society - or, indeed, in the case of someone like fairhavenmagick - contribute greatly by doing sar work. the message you say you want to share is diminished by the disdain which you appear to convey for those who don't agree that yours is the only way that is right. that's why tp, who is not a cesar millan fan, exploded at you. even cesar millan and ian dunbar - at two different ends of the spectrum - managed in the end to convey respect for each other despite disagreements re training methods. even jean donaldson and the humane society she led came to terms with the fact that a cesar millan may not be right on everything, but loves dogs and wants to save their lives. insisting only one way is the right way is a guarantee of never finding common ground and ultimately never being taken seriously by any other than those who are already part of the choir.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

I'm sorry if I upset anyone with my posts , videos, photos, personal experiences... I just thought since the thread had "on the fence" on the title, that poodleforum members would share their own opinion so anyone that was on the fence regarding training could see several ways of training to help them decide on what path to take with their own dogs. 
My intentions were good, again sorry if it offended or upset anyone ok? 


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i doubt you offended anyone, lou. although you are living proof that there is more than one way to train that results in happy well-behaved dogs. soldier on!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled, I do not doubt for a second that as behaviorist you did lots of remarkable work with dogs that were very damaged by other training methods and I applaud you for what you did.
What you must remember however is that by the nature of your work, you saw only the Failures, but that that does not mean that the very same methods are not appropriately and successfully used by others - those that you would never have occasion to hear about. In fact, even when you meet those successes in the course of everyday life, I doubt that you ask HOW they trained them to be so great - you see a loving and connected team that communicate in a gentle and subtle way, and you assume that is how the initial training happened, but you may very well be wrong on that!

For example, I have mentioned several times on the forum that all of my girls were housebroken within a day or two of coming home but guess how I did that -100 percent observation, catching them when they went in the wrong place and instantly and briefly "gave them hell for it", and catching every time that they went in the right place, and gave them treats and praise for it that. It did not ruin my relationship with the dogs, and it did not make them afraid to potty in front of me - in fact, they go on command.
So perfectly executed were my corrections, that on the very rare occasion that I would have to speak sternly to a dog, Teaka would instantly run up behind them and start yapping and nipping at their heals to distract them - exactly as she would do if Taylee got into it with another dog, and exactly how a pack of wild dogs after prey would do it. So please don't say that dogs don't buy it if humans try to model their correction behavior - because Teaka completely believes it - she doesn't think that it makes me a scary monster - she thinks it is perfectly normal and forgives and adores me equally as she did Taylee, the alpha amongst the dogs in our home!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I came across this post again. It's one of the most spot on posts I've come across on here..._every _word of it. It's from someone who obviously knows behavior. If you want to learn about dog behavior, check it out. If you don't or you don't agree, I hope you don't call her names too. What some people have said or implied here is that since I don't believe in using too much, if any positive punishment with dogs, at least to the point of coercion, intimidation, physical or psychological pain, then I think others are less something... oh, "lesser beings" and that I'm self righteous. _I_ am not thinking that. I don't think I'm the one who invented the science of behavior. I think some of the methods I read about on these dog forums are less than...could use some refinement. But I don't think I've attacked anyone personally. I haven't called anyone names.

Anyhow, here's the post among many of hers and a few others on here who I see obviously know their stuff...if you don't like me, then maybe you'll like the information delivered by someone else. 

http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/60154-dominance-behavior-3.html. It's #27 (page 3).


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Oh well now you've gone and done it Poodlebeguiled! I've got the sub-forum as my start-up page and didn't know the flipping training and obedience thread was there!!!!

Going to be the bane of everyone's life on there now, so sorry folks!! I promise to spend a few weeks reading back threads first though....


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

manxcat, i also suggest you read patricia mcconnell's "the other end of the leash." some points mcconnell (whom i quoted re the scientific meaning of "dominance" in the thread you're bookmarking and who is an advocate of non-coercive training) makes that too many tend to gloss over: dogs can be status-seeking (and this gets generalized by laymen as dominance) even in human-led households; there are alpha wanna-bes (and other personality type or breeds of dogs) that do not belong in certain kinds of households and there may be some that don't belong in any household; all dogs are different, just as all human beings are different. in other words - and this is my summation - the best training takes account of all of those issues, including our different predilections as species.

and by the way, for tiny poodles, mcconnell does use a firm "no" on her own dogs. and she didn't claim to puff herself up to larger than life while doing so, but in some situations she does use body language, including walking her dogs back (by walking toward them - in a pretty authoritative fashion) to emphasize a "no". 

one additional point: mcconnell's book was published in 2002. as we know, science does not stay still and people do adjust their views based on new studies, discoveries, etc. i can't say whether that has happened with mcconnell on any issue. but "the other end of the leash" was a good read and i suspect there are some fundamentals contained therein that won't change much over time.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Well, I, of course agree with you! I don't agree with his methods or the vast majority of his principals. 

I could go on and on with what's wrong with his methods but it really just gets people's backs up and makes them defensive. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful and frustrating mistress!

I try to show people what alternatives they have by giving advice when they want it and showing them with the animals I work with. Ginger, my service dog, is a walking showcase for positive reinforcement based training. 

The fact of the matter is that it's so much more pleasant and rewarding, on both sides, to work WITH your dog rather than pitting yourself against them. That's one of the many reasons why I choose coercion free training and bmod.

It's far preferable for me to set animals (I don't just work with dogs) up for success and reinforce them for desired behavior. What's more, it sets a pattern for them, they learn to behave accordingly and make the "correct" (as in correct according to us humans!) decisions. A lot of your work is done for you. 

If that fails, I'll remove reinforcement for undesirable behavior or teach alternative behavior (differential reinforcement/RA). But also use management when appropriate. 

The more I train this way, the less need I have for coercion, which usually just supplies a bandaid effect anyways and doesn't address learning deficits or the underlying cause for behavioral problems. 

I'm really happy with my results. I get very high compliance because I've set them up for success, the animal enjoys the learning experience and complying is rewarding, and the relationships to be had are just incredible. 

I don't know why anyone would want anything different. I realize that some people have control issues and like to practice "dominion over animals", but I don't think animals should be an outlet for a person's personal issues.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

I think Ines Gaschot's blog really sums it up beautifully. These dogs have a lot of freedom because they're so well behaved and that was accomplished with positive reinforcement based training. 

My own dog, Angel, is featured in this video. Angel was a breeder in a puppy mill that was so bad it was shut down. She ended up in a rescue and then was transferred to the rescue of the woman I used to work for. This rescue was little better than a hoarding situation. Angel was so fearful, feral really, that the rescue owner was planning on getting her euthanized. I intervened and began working with her. I found her a home. Angel ran away from this home and got picked up by animal control, where she ended back up at the rescue. Then I began fostering her. Two years go by and no one was serious about adopting her. Enough is enough, I adopt her. 

She's had a hard and traumatic life but this video shows how reliable her recall is. She comes running to me with joy (please research dog body language as your reference). She loves training and would be doing dog sports if I was in good enough health to keep up with it. Her progress and our relation is due to the positive reinforcement training I utilize. It works for EVERY dog, every animal. 

Promoting Positive Reinforcement - The Crossover Trainer's Blog


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

msminnamouse said:


> Cognitive dissonance is a powerful and frustrating mistress!


msminnamouse, i suspect everyone here would applaud your hard work and success. i certainly do and i have enjoyed your posts very much. cognitive dissonance, though, doesn't exist on just one side of a fence or an argument. what i liked about patricia mcconnell's book is her honesty in, for example, admitting she has been bitten several times by dogs she was trying to work with, and that she relates how she had to tell some people they should rehome their dogs and how she herself rehomed a dog (one of her border collies) who was not truly happy with insufficient work to do on her farm! not all difficulties people and their animals face living with each other stem from human faults or coercion; some come from the dog's own breed traits and personality, some come from the fact that not all dogs respond in the same way to whatever formula is being proposed. i'm sure there are a number of other reasons that have nothing to do with coercive training. when we don't admit those things, we drive away or underground people who think they are being judged as failures for not doing right by their dogs. 

or let me frame it differently. isn't it ironic that someone advocates positive reinforcement with dogs and consistently sends negative messages to humans who are sincerely trying to do their best by their dogs. demonizing someone like millan with a large following (even here, i suspect) rather than saying simply that there are alternatives and explaining what they are; telling people there is only one right answer and to start their own thread or go elsewhere if they disagree - does that fall into the positive reinforcement category? i'm not sure it even falls into the category of civil discussion. 

what i notice is how many have read this thread and how few have joined in to comment. my guess is that there's real interest in the subject, but real concern about being judged by speaking up. to quote the theme from "monk" - i may be wrong now, but i don't think so...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

patk said:


> msminnamouse, i suspect everyone here would applaud your hard work and success. i certainly do and i have enjoyed your posts very much. cognitive dissonance, though, doesn't exist on just one side of a fence or an argument. what i liked about patricia mcconnell's book is her honesty in, for example, admitting she has been bitten several times by dogs she was trying to work with, and that she relates how she had to tell some people they should rehome their dogs and how she herself rehomed a dog (one of her border collies) who was not truly happy with insufficient work to do on her farm! not all difficulties people and their animals face living with each other stem from human faults or coercion; some come from the dog's own breed traits and personality, some come from the fact that not all dogs respond in the same way to whatever formula is being proposed. i'm sure there are a number of other reasons that have nothing to do with coercive training. when we don't admit those things, we drive away or underground people who think they are being judged as failures for not doing right by their dogs.
> 
> or let me frame it differently. *isn't it ironic that someone advocates positive reinforcement with dogs and consistently sends negative messages to humans who are sincerely trying to do their best by their dogs. demonizing someone like millan with a large following (even here, i suspect) rather than saying simply that there are alternatives and explaining what they are; telling people there is only one right answer and to start their own thread or go elsewhere if they disagree - does that fall into the positive reinforcement category? i'm not sure it even falls into the category of civil discussion. *
> what i notice is how many have read this thread and how few have joined in to comment. my guess is that there's real interest in the subject, but real concern about being judged by speaking up. to quote the theme from "monk" - i may be wrong now, but i don't think so...


Here's an alternative for you. Don't you think it's about time you back off? Quote me where I have personally attacked or sent negative messages to anyone here...other than disagreeing with a certain kind of training and then offering an alternative. Where have I been rude or uncivil? Please quote me so I know.

Presumably, I have a right to my opinion and if I _only_ said there are alternatives to what Cesar Milan does to dogs, that would not be an accurate description AT ALL of what I was trying to convey. It would not cover the half of it. I HATE, HATE, HATE what I've seen him do to dogs on his TV show. I hated how he lay across a golden retriever with his whole body, pinned him, got him into a headlock and clipped his nails by force. That dog bit him three times on that episode. That whole Hollywood drama could have been avoided with gradual conditioning such as I did with a severely abused and terrified dog with the nail clipping. This dog was 20 times worse off than that golden retriever was and yet, in about 5 days, she was fine...no more trauma for her, no drama. But that's just it. No drama equals no TV show. Everyone says how great it is he rehabs dogs that would otherwise be euthanized. Well, so do real trainers and behavior specialists. But because it's TV, it's all about him, which is illogical.

I watched another where he forced a Great Dane across a slippery floor which the dog was terrified of. He had trouble walking on that floor. The owners were starting to do it right by putting small throw rugs all over for the dog to go on and only have to step on a little bit of the hardwood or tile (I forget which) and gradually get use it. Too bad they called Cesar in. In that episode, he strung that dog up by the neck with a choke collar, choking off his breath and forced him across a whole expanse of the flooring that the dog was terrified of. So, then the dog was proclaimed to be cured because he walked across the floor. Any dummy could see this poor animal's tongue hanging out, his head down, his sheer look of being broken down. 

These are a spit into the ocean of horrifying episodes I've seen. I stopped watching after I finally got the point...that this guy, whether he means to or not will not take any behaviorist's advice or take time to learn some alternatives. His show gets the drama lovers out and it makes money. Do you know how many dog advocates and whole, big organizations of veterinary applied behaviorists etc, etc, have tried to get him off the TV? How they've expounded their disappointment about how he's set dog training back decades? Mistreatment to animals must stop. And it could start stopping with people like National Geographic. But they're in it for themselves. 

I even saw a video made from some ex employees that explained how he purposely riled up the dogs prior to being filmed so they'd act more aggressive, more agitated. They showed it happening. I don't know if I could ever find it again, but it was posted quite some time back on another forum.

So sorry to disappoint you that I can't bring myself to tippy toe around CM followers so as not to offend someone. I never was any good at that political correctness. I think he's despicable in his so called "methods." It's downright unconscionable some of the things I've seen him do. I don't go for coercive training methods on animals, period. And no amount of relentless bullying will change that.

I never got the idea that anyone here was mistreating their dogs because of saying, "no" to them or whatever. I never said it, never thought it. I simply believe there are more effective ways and believe there are some detrimental side effects, sometimes pretty bad side effects of certain intimidating methods that people might not know about... and wanted to share some other information.


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## lindasdoggrooming (Nov 12, 2012)

Training is like talking about politics or religion.
Ceasar or positive training.
Prong collars or flat collars.
Electric fence or shock collars.
The best food to feed your dog.
People ask for your opinion then get mad when you give it.
I gave my opinion last week on a dog food that had numerous recalls and has
killed many dogs. Well they decided it is safe to feed their dog. I shut my computer off.
Yes to positive training methods, yes to flat collars, no electric fence, no to shock collars, no to prong collars..
Good dog food with locally sourced ingredients made by a company who hasn't killed any pets.
But again that is only my opinion.
Designer breeds/mutts. I have a opinion on that as well.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree with PoodleBeguiled on this one - it is fine treating alternative training methods as matters of belief and preference when they do no harm, but advocating extreme methods that have been proven to be harmful is another matter altogether. There is a point where things stop being matters of opinion, and become matters of fact. Once upon a time - back in the Barbara Woodhouse days - puppies were not admitted to training classes until they were at least 6 months old, as younger puppies were considered at too much risk of physical damage by the methods used. I grew up in those days, and originally trained dogs using those methods. I am happy that research into learning theory and behaviour has moved us on to a better understanding of how animals (and humans) learn, and given me a battery of less coersive methods to use.

CM says some excellent things about exercise, boundaries, consistency, etc, but his show is just that - a show - designed and edited for maximum conflict and a rapid resolution. The "do not try this at home" disclaimer says it all.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have not read this thread, but I do want to say something. EVERY DOG IS NOT THE SAME ! I have had dogs my whole life, I guess in over 50 years I have been without a dog only 1 and that was when we lived with my in-laws.

My dogs have always been healthy and lived a long , happy life, so even in all those years my dog numbers are low... 

Stella is the first dog that I have ever had that I had to get rough with. There is a reason her first owner paid $2000 for her and gave her away... she is all about ME ME ME . She is hard headed and don't much care what you want. I have never had a dog even close to that personality before. It took me hitting her with a open hand, but hard, and putting her on the ground and showing her my teeth as I growled at her to give her the message that I was DONE with her attacking Carley. I do think the fighting is now over. 

Then she started chasing cars ! Now we don't live near the road, she had to go out of her way to chase cars... me right on her a**, screaming at her . Did not do a bit of good. After she almost got hit, I put a shock collar on her. She got hit twice a few days apart to give up that habit... 

She is very sweet and smart. Love her so much. Never before have I hit a dog or even thought about a shock collar...

So please don't judge, you don't know what you will do or won't do . We all do what we think is best for the dog that we are training. Stella is on the right path now and everyone has noticed the big change.

P.S. Yes, I could have avoided the shock collar by taking away all her freedom or keeping my pocket full of chicken at all times, but I went for something much easier.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

> cognitive dissonance, though, doesn't exist on just one side of a fence or an argument.


Yes, I agree. However, I was referring to the CM topic. I find that it's very much a part of why some people have a hard time considering anything else than what CM tells them to think. People stick to what they know and the new carries uncertainty and some fear of the unknown. 

I've had people see him kick dogs and then turn around and argue the fact that his foot is indeed making contact with the dog. 



> not all difficulties people and their animals face living with each other stem from human faults or coercion; some come from the dog's own breed traits and personality, some come from the fact that not all dogs respond in the same way to whatever formula is being proposed. i'm sure there are a number of other reasons that have nothing to do with coercive training. when we don't admit those things, we drive away or underground people who think they are being judged as failures for not doing right by their dogs.


Agreed again. Every dog is not the right fit for every home, and vise versa. Volunteering in rescue as much as I do, I've learned this. I recall, with one particular rescue, I was one of the only adoption coordinators who didn't ream out adopters for returning a dog. Instead, I was glad that they returned the dog to us to try again, rather than dumping it somewhere else or continuing on and having the problems progress.



> or let me frame it differently. isn't it ironic that someone advocates positive reinforcement with dogs and consistently sends negative messages to humans who are sincerely trying to do their best by their dogs. demonizing someone like millan with a large following (even here, i suspect) rather than saying simply that there are alternatives and explaining what they are; telling people there is only one right answer and to start their own thread or go elsewhere if they disagree - does that fall into the positive reinforcement category? i'm not sure it even falls into the category of civil discussion.


I haven't read the entire thread so I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about. Am I being accused of doing this? Because to the best of my knowledge, I was very polite and respectful. It's one of the hardest parts of animal training for me, extending my philosophy to the humans as well. It's something I'm always working on.

However, it's an emotional subject and I can understand someone letting their emotions speak for them. Humans are sentient creatures, after all.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

> Yes, I could have avoided the shock collar by taking away all her freedom or keeping my pocket full of chicken at all times, but I went for something much easier.


This shows that you don't know what coercion free training espouses. How can it work if you don't know what it entails and how to correctly apply it?

Results can't be had with a house of cards. Of course more positive training will fail if executed poorly. But then so will any kind of training. 

I hear it all the time from trainers who rely on coercion for success. They make a lot of incorrect generalizations about force free training and all it does is demonstrate that they don't know about which they speak. Such as calling us "purely positive". There's no such thing, it's quite impossible and makes no sense. Claiming that there's such a thing just shows a lack of knowledge of behavioral science. And if a trainer lacks knowledge of behavioral science, well, no wonder they need to resort to coercion in order to force compliance. I'm sorry but bullying doesn't really require any real thought. Children on the playground do it every day quite well.

There's a saying. Train smarter, not harder.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Carley's Mom said:


> I have not read this thread, but I do want to say something. EVERY DOG IS NOT THE SAME ! I have had dogs my whole life, I guess in over 50 years I have been without a dog only 1 and that was when we lived with my in-laws.
> 
> My dogs have always been healthy and lived a long , happy life, so even in all those years my dog numbers are low...
> 
> ...


First, I want you to know that I am not judging you in a pre-judging or without - just cause sort of way. I am not disdainful of you as a person. I see that you were feeling desperate and without a decent tool box of training choices. But that can change. But I will say, to give you some food for thought only....a few things.

It is the *#1 myth *that dogs do things to please us. Or they _should _do things because they love us. Evolution and domestication could not have occurred if any animal did not look out for himself _FIRST_. He could not live long enough to reproduce and pass on survival genes if he were looking out for the other guy. It may_ appear _that dogs do things to please us but they are not logically thinking about our internal state of mind to enough of a degree that it would dictate their behavior, which in many cases is instinctual or stems from an instinct to self preserve. It will _appear_ that dogs do things to please their owner when they are happy to get praise. Of course, we know dogs love companionship and affection, being the social animals they are. But praise alone, as a motivator or reinforcer is marginal. Dogs who reliably repeat wanted behaviors from praise alone are usually dogs that are trained with a lot of punishment because punishment and praise never happen at the same moment so the praise is a predictor that nothing bad will happen just then and that is a relief. _All_ dogs, all living organisms are about me, me, me to one degree or another. Dogs do not share our same values or morals. They are amoral. So when dogs misbehave, they're not doing it to "test" us. (way too complex) They are simply undertrained. They simply do things because it works or it doesn't work for them...or it's safe to do it or unsafe to do it. It's unsafe to pee in front of humans...not that the dog learns it's "wrong" morally to pee on the Oriental rug. It's the same with everything.

Pinning a dog to the ground and barring your teeth at her in a growl is a good way to get bitten. In this case it didn't happen. It is also a good way to risk eroding the trust a dog has in it's owner. It is one of the biggest causes for dogs to bite at some point in their lives because they develop a defensive feeling. Perhaps here, you regained the trust and it only happened once. But it's not training. It's intimidation. What does a dog feel like when it's on it's back by force, with anger and pressure put on it? Well, in nature, that ONLY happens when it's about to be killed. I don't recommend ever doing that again. You may have lucked out this time but it has no place in training. The same goes for hitting or slapping a dog. This is not ever necessary even if all dogs are different. I guarantee it. You lost it and I'm not judging because I've lost it too with my dogs in the past. Luckily I've learned more since then. As far as knowing what I would and would not do, yes, I do know that I will never hit a dog or alpha roll him. I know I will never shock my dog with electricity. Even if I didn't have the tools I have now for training, I wouldn't attack an animal, wild or domestic. I use the word, "attack" because that's all it is to them. 

How did your dog make it out to the road to chase cars in the first place? One of the first things that I like to teach a puppy (not trying to be self righteous here, but just offering an alternative) is that he does NOT go out the door when it is opened until given the "okay." I don't do this by scolding or yanking him back. I do it by preventing him from going through the door by closing it quickly as he begins to go through, being careful not to let the door hurt him. An alterative would be a leash. But I prefer if possible for the dog to figure it out on his own. I repeat this until the dog decides he needs to sit and just wait and after just a couple seconds, because he doesn't quite know why he can't go out. Just then, I open the door all the way and let him go with a release word "okay". (that's when I lived on acreage, no road and the dog recalled well.) Besides this training, (not ever 100% reliable) a fence or a leash should be used so the dog can't run off or chase cars. I think the combination of those things is the best safeguard for that. In addition, a reliable recall and that takes sometimes loads of practice. An emergency recall is also helpful. That can be explained later. My Doberman and GSDs had the best recalls of any dogs I ever had. I could call that Dobe off mid chase of some deer when we hiked. But that just didn't happen easily either. It took some specific training to go against that strong prey drive he had... using a bucket, a rope, a couple faux prey animals and a helper. (long story) The most recent GSD was about to kill a cat, had him pinned between his forelegs against the corner of a fence when I called him off and back to me. This just doesn't happen. It takes work and time and the best recalls imo come from the dog WANTING like mad to come when he's called, not that he comes to avoid punishment.

The problem with punishment is often that the dog will stop doing the behavior you dislike for some time but because it doesn't address the underlying issue, that behavior can and often does come back with a vengeance at some future time. Maybe it won't. It does depend on a lot of factors, but in general, this is what is decidedly the experience of experts in the field of animal behavior. Besides that, there are other undesirable effects of punishment based training. 

I know you love your dog. Just look at that siggy picture. And I don't mean to be blunt or rude or anything like that. I just want to share with you, with some examples that there are alternatives that do not tend to make us feel like there's no choice but to be hard on our dogs. If you're interested, check out some of Kikopup's videos. She's a wonderful trainer. I've tried many of her cool ideas. The reason "PR" methods didn't work for you is not because they are faulty. It's because you didn't know how to execute them. It does take some learning, some time but not that much to get the basics at least. And of course screaming didn't work to stop your dog. There are reasons for this. The more you learn, the more you'll see why. 

Happy training.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Here are some books I like and have read, including Patricia McConnell's books. Besides The Other End of the Leash, For the Love of a Dog is also fascinating. Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash (really good)...Patricia McConnell is a good writer too...very enjoyable. While I agree with so much of what she says, I don't agree with pack theory because newer and better research has found that dogs aren't true pack animals and most all wild dogs are not either. She talks about shouting "no" and kicking at a dog when it was in a fight with another dog under her kitchen table....and using some harsher aversives like that but admits that those things are not good training, but it was a case of management then....but that after years of education, she knows better... but that there's a catch. She's a primate. lol. Love that. It's true. 

There are loads of good books. I like Sophia Yin, but again, it doesn't mean I love every single thing that someone does or says, just most of it. Another for a more simple read but nevertheless, good, is Pat Miller's The Power of Positive Training. Temple Gradin, Ian Dunbar, Susan Garrett, Karen Pryor. Another excellent book is Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & Evolution: Raymond Coppinger, Lorna Coppinger: 9780684855301: Amazon.com: Books Some people find it too detailed and dry. I love details and science and this is really a neat book...not so much about training, but it helps give a better understanding I think, of where dogs use to be, where they've come and how we evolved with them. (even though it's only one theory of evolution....it may have some holes in it, but maybe not) Very good.

Anyhow, I hope you're not offended because I mean no hateful criticism...only want to offer ideas for alternatives for later on. I'm glad that your dog's behavior is satisfactory now and that no fall out has seemed to transpire. I realize that some dogs beat the odds.

My son's dog is an example of a dog one would never imagine could turn out so well. She must have a very strong, stable intrinsic temperament because most dogs would be messed up probably forever for what she went through. She was severely abused as a puppy and in fact, taken from her mother at 4 weeks of age and placed in a garbage bag and found in a ditch with dead litter mates. She was a mess for her first years. But after my son got her back (long story) and she and he lived with me in Idaho for some time, she is just flat out a lovely, happy dog, sociable and unafraid of most everything. Overcame a severe aggression (defense) ...ballistic situation with regards to clipping nails. No vet would do it without putting her under. Careful, gradual conditioning made her over come that. She had already had way too much force, threats, hitting, kicking, yelling at in her first years. 

So, my point is that some dogs will roll over and take it and some will develop severe aggression issues. It's not worth the risk especially when there are reliable training methods out there for the learning that do not include any of that.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

I think to not firmly correct a dog is the same as parents that think there shouldn't be an F in school for children that fail. They did fail!! and there shouldn't be any sugar coating, they need to know the world is not a fairy tail and that they need to work hard! 
I treat my dogs the same way if they fail they need to know. If a dog is chewing on a shoe and u redirect only, to a toy, without correction, how is he ever going to realize that the shoe is not his instead of just thinking you are offering more toys including the shoe?! A big AH-AH with a mean face to let them know the shoe is not theirs, works! and that is not cruelty ! I believe in rules, boundaries , structure! And I know people that refuses to correct their tiny dog from biting when resource guarding and the issue has been going on forever! A tiny dog (specially because of size) will NEVER get away with showing aggression toward me! I'm bigger and they will learn to respect me I can promise that! Now large dogs are more difficult/dangerous that's why I showed Lou when she was a small puppy that I'm her momma and she will do as I say and doing that she will be extremely spoiled and loved for being a good girl! 
Works perfect! 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

msminnamouse said:


> Yes, I agree. However, I was referring to the CM topic. I find that it's very much a part of why some people have a hard time considering anything else than what CM tells them to think. People stick to what they know and the new carries uncertainty and some fear of the unknown.
> 
> I've had people see him kick dogs and then turn around and argue the fact that his foot is indeed making contact with the dog.
> 
> ...


no, you are not being accused. absolutely not.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Lou said:


> I think to not firmly correct a dog is the same as parents that think there shouldn't be an F in school for children that fail. They did fail!! and there shouldn't be any sugar coating, they need to know the world is not a fairy tail and that they need to work hard!
> I treat my dogs the same way if they fail they need to know. If a dog is chewing on a shoe and u redirect only, to a toy, without correction, how is he ever going to realize that the shoe is not his/hers instead of just thinking you are offering more toys including the shoe?! A big AH-AH with a mean face to let them know the shoe is not theirs, works! and that is not cruelty ! I believe in rules, boundaries , structure! And I know people that refuses to correct their tiny dog from biting when resource guarding and the issue has been going on forever! A tiny dog (specially because of size) will NEVER get away with showing aggression toward me! I'm bigger and they will learn to respect me I can promise that! Now large dogs are more difficult/dangerous that's why I showed Lou when she was a small puppy that I'm her momma and she will do as I say and doing that she will be extremely spoiled and loved for being a good girl!
> Works perfect!
> 
> ...


Oy! Lou... Sorry, but that is not true that simple redirection and reinforcement for _not_ chewing on the shoe or preventing reinforcement of chewing on the shoe won't work. I don't know where you get this, but it's not correct, no disrespect meant. It is one base part of dog training. It's not the same as avoiding giving an F. What it is with dogs, is that they do what works for them. They don't know that chewing your shoe is morally irresponsible of them. lol. So to them and how their brains work, you're just attacking them which can cause them to lose trust as time goes by. If it works to chew a shoe, and it's reinforcing because it's fun, they're going to do it. If they can't chew the shoe because it's put away out of their reach or it's traded (once they get hold of it) for a chew toy, they are prevented from being reinforced any further....the less they're reinforced, the more likely the behavior will extinguish. This is behavioral law, not up for grabs. It's a fact, as surely as gravity is a law of physics. They are not the same as humans. Behavior is behavior is behavior but there are differences in tactics since dogs think differently than humans. It is important to separate what science has found about dogs' cognitive abilities (even though that is ever changing) and what studies and numerous experiments have shown about dogs and how they are. Sure, you might say science is not everything...sometimes they're wrong. But it's the best we've got. 

Plus, I've trained dogs for a long, long time and this is how I do it. I don't scold them for taking my slipper. Matisse is a great one for that when I forget to close my closet door. I traded him for it and put it away. I've also decided to go ahead and just teach him to bring it to me and get rewarded. That way, it can become a neat trick and he won't get to gnaw on it and ruin my slippers.

But with other things, my dogs have all turned out to have excellent manners, CGCs and are invited to peoples' homes. (not the Poodles puppies yet) People begged me to bring my Lab along with me to their houses. My Chihuahuas are really lovely little gentleman and lady....just lovely, well mannered and obedient. They don't do anything wrong. (except Jose` likes to eat poo) And I trained the way I talk about, very little in the way of scoldings. Sometimes... I lose it about yapping because my training of "enough" has lapsed and they've regressed a little...need a refresher course. That's the only thing they do that's somewhat annoying at times. But for the most part no. My Doberman would have been ruined if I had used very harsh methods on him. They just don't put up with that. So, yeah....you've got to learn some of the laws of behavior before you assume that _no reinforcement = extinguishing behavior._

I believe in rules too. I get them. I can sit on the couch with my dogs and leave my dinner plate on my lap and they can even be quite close and they won't touch it. It's not from telling them "no." It's from giving them bites WHEN their behavior is how I like it...a foot or two away and not staring at it and quivering. lol. When they least expect it and are not paying attention, they get a bite. So, there's no begging, no bugging...nothing. Matisse is learning to walk past food without trying to get it. There's no scolding or punishment. He simply learns that by not taking the food, he WILL get food. This is the same principle I use with almost everything. By not straining to go see something, you will get to go see that something. No scolding, no words. By not chewing my slipper, you WILL get to chew something even better than my slipper. No scolding, no "no!" no nothing.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oy! Lou! Sorry, but that is not true that simple redirection and reinforcement for _not_ chewing on the shoe or preventing reinforcement of chewing on the shoe won't work. I don't know where you get this, but it's not correct, no disrespect meant. It's not the same as avoiding giving an F. What it is with dogs, is that they do what works for them. They don't know that chewing your shoe is morally irresponsible of them. lol. So to them and how their brains work, you're just attacking them which can cause them to lose trust as time goes by. If it works to chew a shoe, and it's reinforcing because it's fun, they're going to do it. If they can't chew the shoe because it's put away out of their reach or it's traded (once they get hold of it) for a chew toy, they are prevented from being reinforced any further....the less they're reinforced, the more likely the behavior will extinguish. This is behavioral law, not up for grabs. It's a fact, as surely as gravity is a law of physics. They are not the same as humans. Behavior is behavior is behavior but there are differences in tactics since dogs think differently than humans. It is important to separate what science has found about dogs' cognitive abilities (even though that is ever changing) and what studies and numerous experiments have shown about dogs and how they are. Sure, you might say science is not everything...sometimes they're wrong. But it's the best we've got.
> 
> Plus, I've trained dogs for a long, long time and this is how I do it. I don't scold them for taking my slipper. Matisse is a great one for that when I forget to close my closet door. I traded him for it and put it away. I've also decided to go ahead and just teach him to bring it to me and get rewarded. That way, it can become a neat trick and he won't get to gnaw on it and ruin my slippers.
> 
> But with other things, my dogs have all turned out to have excellent manners, CGCs and are invited to peoples' homes. (not the Poodles puppies yet) People begged me to bring my Lab along with me to their houses. My Chihuahuas are really lovely little gentleman and lady....just lovely, well mannered and obedient. They don't do anything wrong. (except Jose` likes to eat poo) And I trained the way I talk about, very little in the way of scoldings. Sometimes...when I lose it about yapping. But for the most part no. My Doberman would have been ruined if I had used very harsh methods on him. They just don't put up with that. So, yeah....you've got to learn some of the laws of behavior before you assume that _no reinforcement = extinguishing behavior._


I didn't take any offense and hope you don't take any either 

But I don't have to hide my shoes.  
I told them a couple of times (firmly) and they NEVER touch my shoes now  and their paws have NEVER touched my counter tops, they do not ever take something off the coffee table etc etc, 

AND they do trust and love me  look at this picture I just took , right now as I type this LOL  

we agree to disagree, and that's ok. We can all be friends and believe in different things. What works for one may not work for another (((((((hugs)))))) 










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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I won't have to hide my slippers either pretty soon. But they're puppies. I don't have to hide my slippers from my Chihuahuas. lol. What would you do if your dog chased a deer? It's a really serious offense and punishable. So, where I use to live, they had to learn to recall no matter what. So for prey, I didn't scold when they went after pretend prey when I called them to come. I had my helper put a bucket over the prey so they couldn't get it. Not coming first meant no prey reward. Then when the dog would come, he got the prey....another much superior prey for coming_ first_. He stopped chasing deer. I didn't have to put a bucket over the deer. LOL. Of course your dogs love you. Dogs tend to be forgiving and you haven't done anything violent to them. My dogs love and trust me too. And they never get a look on their face, like "oh s!!t" lol


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I won't have to hide my slippers either pretty soon. But they're puppies. I don't have to hide my slippers from my Chihuahuas. lol. What would you do if your dog chased a deer? It's a really serious offense and punishable. So, where I use to live, they had to learn to recall no matter what. So for prey, I didn't scold when they went after pretend prey when I called them to come. I had my helper put a bucket over the prey so they couldn't get it. Not coming first meant no prey reward. Then when the dog would come, he got the prey....another much superior prey for coming_ first_. He stopped chasing deer. I didn't have to put a bucket over the deer. LOL.


There was once a little baby bird that could fly in my yard, and I had been practicing "leave it" with Lou when she picked up paper off the floor. (I say "leave it" she walked away from it and got chicken) So when she started acting like she was going to take off toward the bird I said "LEAVE IT!!!!!!" And she turned around... and got a big ol piece of chicken. And that's were Lou's first experience with prey.
The second time there was another baby bird in the yard. Lou and Apollo stood a few feet from the bird looking at me (for reassurance) and looking at the bird, they stood there like statues and I only had to tell them "leave it" once.
Then I said: "Let's go home, RIGHT NOW" and the happily followed me inside. It took telling them 1 time not to touch the bird, I can't afford to practice redirecting (or bucket) many times, they could get hurt one unfortunate time. And I believe they wouldn't be reliable because there is a chance the bucket won't be there one time LOL With my dogs they KNOW they are not allowed to touch the bird, and not that the pray "is unreachable" at this time. 
PS. I have never had to hide my shoes. And I believe that's pretty awesome and more effective. They KNOW it's not theirs and they are cool with that.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Leave it is a great, all around useful thing to teach them. My puppies learned that one the first few days I had them because they were picking up rocks and things in the yard. They've generalized it to all kinds of things now. But I don't have to say it with a stern voice. It's like any other cue...just spoken in a regular speaking voice because that's been paired with the reward for leaving it. They have good hearing. lol. But a dog with the kind of power and prey drive my Doberman had, I could not let him chase deer and yelling at him would have done no good. "leave it" would have not been enough for that strong a drive. He had to go through a week's worth of specific training, I felt, in that case, and more and more practice with his recall.

Speaking of birds, my Lab, the classic bird dog would go to my neighbor's and hang out on their lawn when I lived in Idaho. They had chickens that just ran around their yard. Bonnie would lie down on the grass in the sun and those chickens came up to her and one hen in particular liked to peck at her face. Bonnie lay there very still and her tail went thump, thump, thump. She looked very lovingly at them. I would go to get her and these friends said, "You just leave Bonnie right here." in a stern voice to me. haha. She somehow recognized that they were pets and not to be eaten...because she did kill wild rabbits and eat them. Ewww.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Leave it is a great, all around useful thing to teach them. My puppies learned that one the first few days I had them because they were picking up rocks and things in the yard. They've generalized it to all kinds of things now. But I don't have to say it with a stern voice. It's like any other cue...just spoken in a regular speaking voice because that's been paired with the reward for leaving it. They have good hearing. lol. But a dog with the kind of power and prey drive my Doberman had, I could not let him chase deer and yelling at him would have done no good. "leave it" would have not been enough for that strong a drive. He had to go through a week's worth of specific training, I felt, in that case, and more and more practice with his recall.
> 
> Speaking of birds, my Lab, the classic bird dog would go to my neighbor's and hang out on their lawn when I lived in Idaho. They had chickens that just ran around their yard. Bonnie would lie down on the grass in the sun and those chickens came up to her and one hen in particular liked to peck at her face. Bonnie lay there very still and her tail went thump, thump, thump. She looked very lovingly at them. I would go to get her and these friends said, "You just leave Bonnie right here." in a stern voice to me. haha. She somehow recognized that they were pets and not to be eaten...because she did kill wild rabbits and eat them. Ewww.


Sorry I had to edit my post a few times.
Typed too fast! LOL

I just think we believe different things. and Im not abusing or hurting my dogs so I just think there are different methods and different beliefs and people should have the right to chose as long as they don't hurt anyone.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Lou said:


> Sorry I had to edit my post a few times.
> Typed too fast! LOL
> 
> I just think we believe different things. and Im not abusing or hurting my dogs so I just think there are different methods and different beliefs and people should have the right to chose as long as they don't hurt anyone.


Of course. Nobody is telling you that you don't have the right. And I don't really care how anyone trains their dogs as long as they're not doing harm, as I see that Cesar Milan does. I just think it's interesting and a civil debate without attacking anyone or calling names is stimulating. I think it gives an opportunity if one likes opportunities to hear about something they maybe didn't hear about before...food for thought maybe. Like I've said, I've trained both ways....back 20 some years ago and before, I used lots of more stern methods. That was the only game in town as they say. And then I started using behavioral learning...the science, specific and general concepts and it's like night and day...day and night. LOL. There's just no comparison to how my dogs respond to how they did back then. I loved my dogs back then and they loved me. But the bond I have now with my dogs is even stronger because it's not me vs. them. It's more of a partnership. That's been my experience anyhow.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

You can see from the attached photo how far we are from the road. Stella can go in a another direction with miles of woods and pasture, but she was going for the road to chase cars. I worked with her a long time with treats in my pocket and yes, she came back each time, but as soon as I lost the treats she lost all hearing... for her own sake, I had to make a change in training.

As Lou said, with most dogs a "AH AH ", will be all that is needed for them to stops something they are doing. That worked for all my other dogs, but with Stella , she would use that sound as music for a dance step... 

I worked for a whole year trying to get her to stop attacking Carley. I crated her and scolded her each time . I talked to two trainers, her breeder , this forum ect. looking for help. Carley was afraid in her own home, stopped going for walks with us... it had to stop or I was going to have to re-home Stella. I finally again for her own sake make a change in training. Then and only then, did it stop. I agree that growling and showing teeth is not a smart thing to do, but S. knows that I love her, I have always been good to her. I take care of her every need. I just had had enough of the fighting and it did stop when I got rough with her. Maybe there is a better way, I am no saying it was the best thing to do. I am saying it worked.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Here's an alternative for you. Don't you think it's about time you back off? *Quote me where I have personally attacked or sent negative messages to anyone here.*..other than disagreeing with a certain kind of training and then offering an alternative. Where have I been rude or uncivil? Please quote me so I know.
> 
> Presumably, I have a right to my opinion and if I _only_ said there are alternatives to what Cesar Milan does to dogs, that would not be an accurate description AT ALL of what I was trying to convey. It would not cover the half of it. I HATE, HATE, HATE what I've seen him do to dogs on his TV show. I hated how he lay across a golden retriever with his whole body, pinned him, got him into a headlock and clipped his nails by force. That dog bit him three times on that episode. That whole Hollywood drama could have been avoided with gradual conditioning such as I did with a severely abused and terrified dog with the nail clipping. This dog was 20 times worse off than that golden retriever was and yet, in about 5 days, she was fine...no more trauma for her, no drama. But that's just it. No drama equals no TV show. Everyone says how great it is he rehabs dogs that would otherwise be euthanized. Well, so do real trainers and behavior specialists. But because it's TV, it's all about him, which is illogical.
> 
> ...


why don't you take a look at how you responded to people who had other suggestions about the choices you set up in your poll thread? why did tp blow up at you? she despises millan, too, but she didn't like what you implied about her and her way of training her dogs.

nobody is asking you to tiptoe around cesar millan's methods. but you should take your post above, substitute the name of one of your favorite trainers and see how you, not the trainer, come across - and the message people then receive about how you must view them, too, for daring to resort to other than just positive methods when they are desperate to save their dogs. 

i also saw the episode with the great dane. millan used a technique known as flooding, which is actually used to treat human beings, as well. it is not guaranteed and indeed is generally not a first choice in trying to deal with this issue - in dogs or humans. but what you "forgot" to mention is that it seems to have worked, because there are follow on scenes with the dog walking on that same floor without any fear. it's the omission re the fact that this method is indeed part of the "science" in treating fear and that it worked in this instance that chips away at your credibility. insisting that millan won't listen to anyone else, you have also completely ignored the quote i posted from ian dunbar on millan's book featuring dunbar and many different trainers and their approaches - as dunbar testifies, it includes word for word what he himself said and did. millan could make money putting out just any book with his name attached; there was no need to feature people who disagree with him. but he did. so there goes your credibility again.

i started looking at stuff by mcconnell and yin because i couldn't believe such big names were so oblivious to some of the serious problems people face in trying to keep their animals. turns out they're definitely not millan supporters, but they're not unrealistic, either. they are, however, often being selectively quoted to support specific points of view and when very tough issues for owners come up, their takes on such issues are not mentioned. 

the real value of science is learning that not everything is set in stone. we know so little about humans, and yet we presume to know much more about dogs, with whom we have difficulty communicating? i am and probably always will be, skeptical that there is "only one" way to do things. i wouldn't advise anyone to start off choosing coercion, especially with puppies, but there are times and circumstances when it may be necessary with adult dogs. and there may be puppies and adult dogs who cannot live successfully in the average human household. all dogs are different, as are all human beings. and, no, i don't intend to back off on that point of view.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I wasn't asking you to back off from your ideas and opinions. I was asking you to stop following me around my posts saying something like I'm self righteous or I'm uncivil....the name calling. That is all. 

I enjoy a lively debate on training philosophies and yes, have definite opinions about it. What I have learned from a fair amount of schooling on the subject as well as a long time spent training all kinds of dogs, this is why I'm confident in my choices. I have never had a dog that I've worked with that would require a punishing protocol. And I've worked with some hard cases. In fact, those are especially the scenarios where punishment could be their undoing completely. Kid gloves is more like it.

What I gather you don't like about me or my opinion is exactly the same thing that you're doing...stating your opinion, stating why the other person is wrong, what could go wrong with something they're doing. 

Bringing up other threads to this one (I believe that's against the rules)? And anyhow, what's wrong with my poll? It was MY poll, not yours so I get to choose the wording, as long as it's not breaking the rules, right? If it sounds slanted or bias, well, it probably is. Let's get over this political correctness over kill, can we? But I still don't see where I attacked anyone here personally. I have stated my dislike for actions, such as hurting, scaring, threatening, intimidating dogs. I can't help it if someone gets defensive when I say I don't like certain kinds of things done to dogs. I don't mean to make it a reflection on their person or character. I think more, it's a matter of not knowing there's another way. I try not to make it about the person himself, but about the methods. I don't see any other way to debate something that has to do with actions when there are people behind the actions. Actions don't just happen out of nowhere when we're talking about training methods. Hmmm...let me know how.

Credibility? Whatever you want to think is fine. But I'd appreciate not resorting to smear tactics all over this forum. If you're going to talk the talk, then walk the walk. Other people have pm'd me on the help I've given them, gave me feed back on their success and thanked me over the years I've been on forums. I've had a successful rehab/training business for a long time. Opinions, praising or criticizing methods, famous trainers or celebrities is not the same thing as going after someone on this forum. Please leave the personal stuff out of this and let's just talk about methods and philosophies.

I'm probably doing the same thing I think you were doing. And you were doing the same thing you thought I was doing or is it what you thought I was doing? No wait, what you thought you was, no were...doing.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Positive doesn't mean permissive. It's a major misconception that it is.

Like with any other method, you set boundaries, give direction, and provide discipline. Discipline doesn't have to involve coercion.

Somehow, I'm able to successfully train any animal, dog or other species, without implementing actions that involve intimidation, fear, pain, or undue stress. This includes working dogs, as I also train service and therapy dogs. 

Dogs are very intelligent creatures. Far more intelligent than most people give them credit for. They observe patterns and learn what will work and what won't. I don't even crate my dogs, they have free run of the house, they're so well behaved. Somehow, with my training, they know not to chew on shoes, mess in the house, etc. They're rarely on leash during walks unless we're in an area where we have to observe leash laws. They've earned a lot of freedom.

Dogs don't have a concept of what's morally right and what's wrong. That's a human invention. However, they can learn what is likely to pay off or not. You can easily teach dogs what's off limits without corrections.

I genuinely don't understand why some people perceive that there's a need to use coercive corrections. Especially when I see posts by some of these people saying that their dogs still engage in the behaviors that they've been corrected for. Seems that it's not working beyond a temporary reprieve, which means that the dog really isn't learning anything besides how to avoid getting corrected in the near future. 

You might find this blog pertinent to the issue. It discusses corrections from a strictly logical point of view. Ethics aside.

“I only correct my dog when he knows what he’s supposed to do.” | Lady Chauncey Barkington III's Finishing School For Dogs and Other Beasts

Regarding flooding, it sometimes works. Not always though. And at a lot of stress to the subject. It has a very high degree for failure and fallout. 

Complete and utter flooding is usually NOT used in human psychotherapy. Graded exposure therapy usually is.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm going to read that blog asap. But from the heading....yep, that's so common, only correcting the dog when he "knows" but is being stubborn. It's not a matter of knowing or not knowing. It's a matter of whether the dog has had enough of a history or reinforcement for a behavior...if the dog is motivated enough to do the wanted behavior. It doesn't matter if he knows and doesn't comply. That is not immoral as it would be with humans. It's the way dogs are. That's the end of it. They're selfish. Yep, immoral or amoral...whatever you want to call it. They don't do things because it's the "right thing to do." Or because they "know better." They do something or don't do it depending on what thing is more motivating, a better pay off, a good, solid history of having enough reinforcement. If they don't comply one time, but have before....even a lot of times, they are not being stubborn or naughty. They simply need more training. This is why collar yanking, coercion, scolding etc makes zero sense to them or me. Sure it stops a behavior but there's so much more to it than that.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Okey dokey - anybody who wants to watch their dogs pee on their rug, chew up their slippers, attack their other dogs, and wait for the behavior to extinguish while they wait to treat them when they stop doing it on their own, that's just fine.
Me, I will continue to let my dogs know, in whichever manner I deem effective to communicate to a particular dog, that the behavior displeases me. I am pretty happy with my results of having them housebroken in a day or two and typically ending an aggressive or destructive behavior the first time that they try it. 
In the end, we all wind up with fantastic dogs - I just like getting to that place quicker so that I can sit back and relax and enjoy my dogs!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think, TP, that perhaps you are describing precisely the misunderstanding of PR we have been referring to! I am pretty certain from other threads that you use kind and gentle methods with your own dogs, so I suspect this is a bit of mild provocation...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> *Okey dokey - anybody who wants to watch their dogs pee on their rug, chew up their slippers, attack their other dogs, and wait for the behavior to extinguish while they wait to treat them when they stop doing it on their own, that's just fine.*
> Me, I will continue to let my dogs know, in whichever manner I deem effective to communicate to a particular dog, that the behavior displeases me. I am pretty happy with my results of having them housebroken in a day or two and typically ending an aggressive or destructive behavior the first time that they try it.
> In the end, we all wind up with fantastic dogs - I just like getting to that place quicker so that I can sit back and relax and enjoy my dogs!
> 
> ...


Oy vey!:alberteinstein: LOL. Silly rabbit. Those "trix" are for people who know nothing about PR training. ROFLOL!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oy vey!:alberteinstein: LOL. Silly rabbit. Those "trix" are for people who know nothing about PR training. ROFLOL!


That is the type of comment that Patk is talking about. I have no problem with your way (and this "rabbit" has a Master's Degree from Colombia University that says I do know something about behavior modification), but it is your attitude of "it's my way or the highway" that is off putting.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

I even negotiate with my poodles  LOL 

i trained them to go upstairs and into their crate on command. (It's nap time and they like it) So when I point ,with my arm and hand, to the top of the stairs and say: "let's go upstairs" they walk up on their own,(I follow) and they get in their crates. (I don't even need the command "get in your box" anymore, they automatically assume if we are going upstairs, it's nap time.)

So, example:

I allow my dogs to wrestle and play in the living room (I actually have an unfurnished area -as I call it THEIR ARENA -for them to play LOL) BUT if I wanna watch a movie and don't want them making noise, I tell them "go lay down" and if they insist a bit  I negotiate: I say "not right now" and " go lay down or we are going to go upstairs" (mildly firm voice)
And they think for a second, sometimes sigh real big and lay down under my feet , I give them kisses, and a turn off the lights to watch my movie 



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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

I like this discussions and reading everyone's responds, I'm glad I'm not alone. I don't use Cesar's methods or anyone's method. In the end, I used whatever method that works for my dogs and me. I have two highly energized bunnies with different if not opposite personalities. Charlie is highly reward-oriented while Edison is not.

Clicker doesn't work on these two. These two will be more interested in the clicker rather than the behavior. Training with treats only works for Charlie. The "party with rewards" when Edison pee/poo on the good spot, that only scares him. When I give him the reward, he just smell it and then ask me with his look like asking what's that? Lol. Charlie still runs to us for rewards after he pees/poos on the good spot and he is almost two years old. So yep we do our own thing here thru trials and errors. We're still in training now that Charlie decides he'd rather eliminate outside (only). He usually eliminate outside and inside but now his wee wee pad stays dry.

FYI: In 2012, before Charlie was gifted to me in the official way, the shelter gave him to be train under Cesar's method and till today, he is still afraid/bark at human/strangers who look at him. Do you think this is a result of it? This happen before hubby decided to keep him as ours. I know this because hubby mentioned to continue the cesar's method as he already trained under it.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Okay, an interesting thing just happened. I was talking to my daughter on the phone about our Thanksgiving plans. She was waiting in line for the ferry and was standing outside of her car and a little boy was hold an unruly, young dog on a rope type leash. The dog was straining and the boy was pulling him back trying to contain him and being a little rough. Emily reached down to try and help or to pat the dog and he got momentarily vicious and bit her, but inhibited his bite so it didn't break the skin. There's an example where the dog was stressed, being "punished" inadvertently, of course by the straining and the boy getting anxious and pulling hard on the leash and the dog redirecting onto my daughter who wasn't doing it to him. He paired her with the "punishment." He thought she did it. 

When something bad happens to a dog, something or someone else in the environment can be associated with the bad thing and can cause an aggressive response. It happens sometimes to owners who pull their dogs back by the collar when the dog is in a frenzy at the front door when the UPS man comes. That may be a tad different but... But to reduce this possibility in a case like my daughter experienced today, it goes to show that it's safer to teach a dog that pulling back on the leash or whatever is really a good thing. So, if a person hasn't taught their dog manners, then the next best thing would be to pair tension on the neck from a leash or collar grab or anything like that with good things. But deliberate punishment carries more risk. One might punish a dog (scold, yank hard or slap) for barking and jumping toward a kid on a bike and from then on, the dog may become aggressive to kids on bikes. It's much better to go through a desensitization/counter conditioning protocol.

I have no doubt that no one here is too rough on their dogs. I picture, "No" and giving them the pointy index finger. Even though I don't think that's the best way, I don't think it means anyone is overly rough on the whole. Tiny, I can tell you are deliriously in love with your dogs.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

fjm said:


> I think, TP, that perhaps you are describing precisely the misunderstanding of PR we have been referring to! I am pretty certain from other threads that you use kind and gentle methods with your own dogs, so I suspect this is a bit of mild provocation...


I was simply quoting what Poodlebeguiled said in this thread.

And what method I use? Almost all of them at times - of course kind and gentle and positive reinforcement is preferred and used 99 percent of the time, but there have absolutely been times - very important turning point moments when I, just like Lou and Carly's Mom's, have used more forceful interventions ( not loosing it, but purposeful and intentional) with fantastic results, and I reject anybody who tells us that We are wrong to keep those in our "tool bag". 


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

Lou said:


> I even negotiate with my poodles  LOL
> 
> i trained them to go upstairs and into their crate on command. (It's nap time and they like it) So when I point ,with my arm and hand, to the top of the stairs and say: "let's go upstairs" they walk up on their own,(I follow) and they get in their crates. (I don't even need the command "get in your box" anymore, they automatically assume if we are going upstairs, it's nap time.)
> 
> ...


This makes me laugh because I just have to tell Racer, "Let's go do your hair" and he runs to the laundry room/garage door to go out & get on the table. I didn't even realize I was saying it for the longest time. Also, "get in like a big boy, turn around & buckle up for safety" when we get in the car. Otherwise he just stands there lol. Once he is in is when I say "turn around" so I can clip him in. "Buckle up for safety" just means be still so I can get it fastened. 

Funny the things they learn :act-up:


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Another example: 

Apollo likes to "TRY" to eat grass but I don't let him because it will make him puke later.

So we are outside right now and he tried to eat grass, so I said: "Apollo!! Don't eat grass" He stopped and walked away. 

And Lou was trying to sniff deep inside a bush and I said (calmly) "Lou, get outta there", she didn't. So I clapped my hands 1 time loudly and said it firmly "Lou, get outta there!" She backed up and walked away.

I don't see anything wrong with what I did. If they were sniffing a hurt animal (they I can't see from here) they could have gotten bitten by a possum with a broken leg or something! So I immediately CORRECTED them and they walk away from it. 

I just cannot see anything wrong with that 


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> That is the type of comment that Patk is talking about. I have no problem with your way (and this "rabbit" has a Master's Degree from Colombia University that says I do know something about behavior modification), but it is your attitude of "it's my way or the highway" that is off putting.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I apologize. I was just being silly...or so I thought. I'll just bow out of the whole place.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I apologize. I was just being silly...or so I thought. I'll just bow out of the whole place.


Thank you. But I don't want you to bow out - I value your advice - just wish you would give it, let others give theirs, and allow the person who is actually in the situation and knows the dog decide what to try. No need to tell them what you think is wrong with the other's advice - allow them to decide for them self!
If I have any problems with my next puppy, for sure you are one of the people that I will want to hear from!


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I apologize. I was just being silly...or so I thought. I'll just bow out of the whole place.


I don't want u to bow out either. I think this is a great topic and the more people contribute to this thread the more information the people that are "on the fence" can use to make decisions for their puppies  I'm sure there is a lot if good information you can provide as well as other poodle parents 


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I apologize. I was just being silly...or so I thought. I'll just bow out of the whole place.


Please don't. This is a good thread and you got good discussions going here. So what if it had been discussed before. We need new discussions. Remakes are everywhere nowadays. I read everyone's posts and feel better knowing there is not just one method out there but many and that's ok. I learnt a great deal from this forum for these sort of discussions happen right here, just like the one you started here.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Joelly said:


> FYI: In 2012, before Charlie was gifted to me in the official way, the shelter gave him to be train under Cesar's method and till today, he is still afraid/bark at human/strangers who look at him. Do you think this is a result of it? This happen before hubby decided to keep him as ours. I know this because hubby mentioned to continue the cesar's method as he already trained under it.


I think that this is highly probable - he may have been nervous of strangers before the training experience, but it would have done nothing to build his confidence.

I am enjoying this discussion, too. One thing that I find very heartening is that so few of the methods people describe are truly forceful - lots and lots of interruptions and voice corrections, and just one or two more physical interventions in extreme circumstances. 

I freely admit to using That Voice - going from light and happy to deep, slow and growly, and then back to praise compliance. And I suspect that one of the reasons that I was a very rapid convert to reward based training was that my puppies were so very tiny, and came after many, many years of living with cats (use force on a cat too often and you no longer have a cat...). Had I been faced with a 30 kilo adolescent I might have been swifter to resort to physical force - using it on a pup weighing less than a bag of sugar was so obviously a no-no that I was only too glad to find safer and more effective methods!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> Okey dokey - anybody who wants to watch their dogs pee on their rug, chew up their slippers, attack their other dogs, and wait for the behavior to extinguish while they wait to treat them when they stop doing it on their own, that's just fine.






Tiny Poodles said:


> *I was simply quoting what Poodlebeguiled said in this thread.*And what method I use? Almost all of them at times - of course kind and gentle and positive reinforcement is preferred and used 99 percent of the time, but there have absolutely been times - very important turning point moments when I, just like Lou and Carly's Mom's, have used more forceful interventions ( not loosing it, but purposeful and intentional) with fantastic results, and I reject anybody who tells us that We are wrong to keep those in our "tool bag".
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh my gosh! Did I say that? Where in heaven's name did I say that?  I wait around for good things to happen and just watch the bad things happen and hope they'll go away so I can treat them? I said that? Show me where you quoted me.... please and then have me committed. 



I for sure won't be giving anymore advice if that's what I said.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oy! Lou... Sorry, but that is not true that simple redirection and reinforcement for _not_ chewing on the shoe or preventing reinforcement of chewing on the shoe won't work. I don't know where you get this, but it's not correct, no disrespect meant. It is one base part of dog training. It's not the same as avoiding giving an F. What it is with dogs, is that they do what works for them. They don't know that chewing your shoe is morally irresponsible of them. lol. So to them and how their brains work, you're just attacking them which can cause them to lose trust as time goes by. If it works to chew a shoe, and it's reinforcing because it's fun, they're going to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Basically waiting for it to get better , instead of teaching them that chewing a shoe is wrong. 


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

It's just different methods. 

I choose to correct them on the spot so they know chewing my shoe is wrong and it doesn't belong to them, and they learn right then and there with "AH-AH" 

instead of hiding the shoe



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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Lou said:


> Basically waiting for it to get better , instead of teaching them that chewing a shoe is wrong.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Where did I say I sit there and watch him chew up my slippers and pee on my rug, waiting for it to get better? 

If you were interested (which I don't see any indication of) in how I still have my slippers intact and no pee on my rug without yelling at my dogs, I'll tell you. How they learn to leave my stuff alone....Otherwise I'll leave you with what you have stuck in your mind about proven training methods. Btw, I can't teach my dogs and neither can you, that chewing up my stuff or peeing on my rug is_ wrong _in a moral sense. I can teach them that leaving my things alone (not chewing my slippers and peeing on my rug) is better for them than wrecking my stuff and how they choose themselves with their own developing self control the behavior I like.

I wouldn't dream of scolding a little baby puppy _harshly._ I want my dogs for sports and performance in other venues. The two don't go hand in hand. Ask anyone with a good agility dog. I want my puppies to be puppies and be silly and have fun.... and not worry about getting nervous and appeasing to my demanding things from them. I show them what I like and they enjoy complying for the sheer fun of it, not because they feel they better do it or else. They're learning how to control their OWN behavior, just like I've done with my other dogs who have always been wonderfully behaved with some of them with advanced training. I don't need them to be little robots with perfect behavior....not now, not ever. I don't need a toned down version of a dog that is not as apt to throw new behaviors. (disclaimer: not that you or anyone here has that. But punishment, if a dog is super sensitive or depending on a lot of things has a good chance of doing that)

So far, my puppies have learned these things: drop it, leave it, recall (not to perfection yet, that takes time to develop to a very high level of reliability....well, I guess unless I were to shock him if he didn't come) walk nicely on a loose leash, almost a formal heel, down, stay with some distractions, (still in development for duration and more distance)dance, (up on their hind legs half way across my living room) Matisse is bringing me my slipper when I toss it for him....just need him to learn to go get it from wherever it is and bring it, actually bring both of them. That's a trick we just started. He brings slippers and sometimes doesn't bring them all the way to me but he doesn't chew them, just carries them around. If I punished that, I won't get that trick of retrieving my slippers. He retrieves a ball or toy well, right to my hand every time. If I punished him or took everything away from him that he gets without something in it for him, that would ruin his retrieve. (I know...I've done it to a dog in the past) Matisse can now free stack nice and squarely for conformation without my touching him.

It may not seem like a lot to you, but it is to me. I go slowly and don't put a lot of pressure on them at this age. It's all fun and games, nothing too serious because they're puppies and that's what puppies are for. Imo. I've never had an older puppy that got into my stuff and wrecked it. I usually figure about a year or so old and they're over it for the most part. Maybe younger with these toys. The big dogs take a little longer to mature. I don't want my puppies to be afraid of getting scolded if they dare try something, don't want that in their heads at all.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

How old are the puppies? I was firm in my corrections with Lou when she was 3.5 to 4 months, not before then when she would be too little to even possibly comprehend /understand me. Just wanted to make that clear.
And I am glad you are happy with your methods and that they work for you and your puppies. 


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I don't think dogs have any concept of "right" and "wrong" - safe/unsafe, perhaps, and works/doesn't work definitely. I can't see any problem with teaching a dog that retrieving a slipper works, and is more rewarding than taking it off to chew, as an alternative to teaching him that doing so is not safe, and will potentially lead to an explosion from the nearest human. I did teach mine as pups that I had a much larger ownership zone than a dog - they quickly learned that giving up stuff I claimed got them something good, and the willingness has stuck.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I probably was editing my post when you posted....added some at the end.

My puppies are a tad over 6 months. But I never use harsh methods. I might tell them, "no, do this instead." But it's more of a directional thing or directive I should say rather than something to startle or make them back down. I never would stop a behavior without giving an alternative.

Btw, these aren't MY methods. These are proven methods that come from animal behaviorists who specialize in training dogs, behavioral scientists with advanced degrees in behavior, from applied veterinary behaviorists, university behavior departments who study and do research on how dogs learn and what methods are best with the least amount of wear and tear on a dog. Most everything I do is based on learning behavior, not something I just invented.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Harsh is subjective.
This summer we were in the park, I put the girls on the ground to sit down on the grass with them, and Teaka went charging off after a leashed Pomeranian that was maybe 40 or 50 feet away. I shouted Teaka, in my loudest, sharpest voice, and she fell flat on the ground. I pointed to the ground at my feet, and she walked over to me apologetically. Had it been Taylee, she would not have broken her stride, she would have arced back in my direction and jumped in my arms.
A stern command simply differentiates for them that it is not optional, like it might be at home in my normal voice, but in no way, shape or form does it make them afraid to come to me - they know that coming to Mom when she means it is always the best thing!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Yes it is subjective. But I don't want my dogs to only come to me, even with a lot of distraction submissively. I want them to come because it's always, always the best, most fantastic choice. I don't think dogs have the concept of apologizing. I'm pretty sure what you saw was submission, probably not cowed, because I don't get that feeling from you AT ALL. But some dogs show mild submission with certain kinds of training techniques. I don't want to see any kind of body language in my dogs that indicates submissiveness at all. But at least you got your dog back. I guess in an emergency you gotta do what you gotta do.

When my Doberman was chasing a Lab across my pasture...and looking very scary like he might attack him, I was about 200 feet away, up on my porch. I yelled so he could hear me, but not in an angry tone, just matter of fact, "halt." Then, when he stopped, "down." And I went down there in the pasture to see what all the fuss was about and we came back up the hill to the house. But this was something we had trained for. He had practice with halt and down, a down on recall and a lot more. So, he did it because he had a strong history or reinforcement for this trick, even in the face of an emergency.

I know a very respected trainer who has a neat trick for teaching what she calls an emergency recall. It's reserved for rare times only. It's a very cool idea. I don't know if it's okay to cross post though from another forum. If by some remote chance anyone is interested, let me know and I'll see about finding it. Of course, it doesn't involve particular firmness or _I mean business_. it's really very simple but it does mean spending some time training it in.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Harsh is subjective.
> This summer we were in the park, I put the girls on the ground to sit down on the grass with them, and Teaka went charging off after a leashed Pomeranian that was maybe 40 or 50 feet away. I shouted Teaka, in my loudest, sharpest voice, and she fell flat on the ground. I pointed to the ground at my feet, and she walked over to me apologetically. Had it been Taylee, she would not have broken her stride, she would have arced back in my direction and jumped in my arms.
> A stern command simply differentiates for them that it is not optional, like it might be at home in my normal voice, but in no way, shape or form does it make them afraid to come to me - they know that coming to Mom when she means it is always the best thing!


Exactly!!  

Some similar (not as severe) just happened! I just walked outside and Apollo ran with an "indoor toy" in his mouth, I said: "Apollo!! AH-AH!" ( he started walking toward me to give it back) then I took it away and he licked me and wagged his tail and went to play with Lou. ( We are outside right now for that , for them to play and potty) 

So HE KNOWS, he can't take the toys outside so when I said AH-AH he immediately turned around and brought it back, happily doing a little wiggle dance and everything cause it's outdoor playtime , he is not upset or traumatized in the least and it would have worked the same if it was a raccoon they were lunging after or anything! Telling them "no" doesn't make them scared of me at all, they know there are MANY benefits to following my rules 


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Licking and wagging a tail are also calming signals, appeasement gestures. Ah-ah, if used in a rather sharp tone can cause that in a dog. Maybe it wasn't in your case. Maybe it was. I can't see your dog.

Jose` knows not to take inside toys outside also. He's the only one who tries it sometimes. I don't say, "ah-ah!" or "no." I say something like, "drop it, that's an inside toy." Somehow he got onto it and just drops them in front of the door before going out. I rarely have to remind him and if I do, it can be whisper. Maybe you used a normal speaking voice or a whisper too. Or did you say it like a threat or an expletive?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Understanding your dog?s body language | GoSouthOnline


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Licking and wagging a tail are also calming signals, appeasement gestures. Ah-ah, if used in a rather sharp tone can cause that in a dog. Maybe it wasn't in your case. Maybe it was. I can't see your dog.
> 
> Jose` knows not to take inside toys outside also. He's the only one who tries it sometimes. I don't say, "ah-ah!" or "no." I say something like, "drop it, that's an inside toy." Somehow he got onto it and just drops them in front of the door before going out. I rarely have to remind him and if I do, it can be whisper. Maybe you used a normal speaking voice or a whisper too. Or did you say it like a threat or an expletive?


I always say AH-AH in the same mildly firm a little louder than normal speaking voice. Unless it's something severe or if they are in danger than I say it LOUD and firm and use the "RIGHT NOW!!"-command which means they HAVE TO obey immediately. Example: the bug company left my backyard gate open, Lou and Apollo walked out of the backyard (I was so worried) but I followed them and said: "LET'S GO HOME!!" and "RIGHT NOW" really firm and a bit loud. Pointing at the gate from where they came out. (That was the first time they ever got out) 
So when I told them firmly to get back home, they immediately came toward me wagging tails and walked straight back into the backyard. 

I has no option to be "positively reinforcing" they need to obey for their own safety and they did. I was so proud of them, they got a bunch of chicken for being good kids! 

PS. I only use "RIGHT NOW!!" (Loudly) occasionally and they know I mean it!!! (And they know it means MORE chicken) 

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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Pulezze - I understand my dog's body language - Teaka was a submissive dog from day one ( I think specifically chosen by my breeder since she was to be the third in an all female pack), and she turned out to be a fine dog in my home - though I am pretty sure that in inexperienced hands she would have been a submissively urinating terrified mess. And while you can shape a dog and build their confidence, which I most definitely did with her, i do not think that you can Completely change their nature - and that is why I added how Taylee, a more confident dog would have reacted in the same situation. 
Point being, two of my dogs with entirely different temperaments, both with perfect recalls under distraction, whilst running after something (with Taylee it would have been her ball) - neither one would hesitate for a split second to return to me despite the "harsh" command.
But then when you think about it, aren't commands normally harsh? Requests, which imply an option to say no, are not what you want to do on a recall.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

And Tangee says " why run over there when I can just sit here", but indoors she always comes with a wagging tail to my requests so I am sure that she would recall if she ever got far enough away from me to use it lol


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Lou said:


> I always say AH-AH in the same mildly firm a little louder than normal speaking voice. Unless it's something severe or if they are in danger than I say it LOUD and firm and use the "RIGHT NOW!!"-command which means they HAVE TO obey immediately. Example: the bug company left my backyard gate open, Lou and Apollo walked out of the backyard (I was so worried) but I followed them and said: "LET'S GO HOME!!" and "RIGHT NOW" really firm and a bit loud. Pointing at the gate from where they came out. (That was the first time they ever got out)
> So when I told them firmly to get back home, they immediately came toward me wagging tails and walked straight back into the backyard.
> 
> *I has no option to be "positively reinforcing" they need to obey for their own safety and they did.* I was so proud of them, they got a bunch of chicken for being good kids!
> ...


That part that is bolded shows me that you have not familiarized yourself with PR training. I have always had dogs that obeyed very well and I needed them too also for their safety and mine! Living in the wilderness in north Idaho and hiking in the mountains there could prove to be _very _dangerous if my dogs didn't obey explicitly and immediately. This was grizzly bear habitat, as well as moose, elk, deer and cougars, just to name the most dangerous ones. If they didn't obey precisely and perfectly, and ran off after a bear or other animal, they could then, run back to me for "safety" and have the bear follow them back. I did allow them to chase squirrels because it's fun and they never caught one.... and they learned the distinction...squirrels okay, nothing else is okay. This is because of dogs not generalizing behavior all that well. They can learn it's okay to lie on this couch, but not on that chair easily.

When we hiked, they had to stay on the trail mainly. I'd let them go off to the sides a little bit but where I could still see them. They learned to return to the trail when I'd say, "trail" in a regular, soft speaking voice. They could run up ahead of me but stay within my sight and when they got a certain distance, about 200 feet, they were taught to run back to check in with me. I didn't have to tell them anything at all, no cue, no "firm" anything. I just walked along behind them and they did what they were taught to do. This was created as a default behavior. It was easy to teach. All PR, no scolding, no special kind of voice, not firm, not do it or else. 

Your chicken was rewarding so that's great. I just don't get why you think you have to speak with some kind of special voice or threatening "I mean it!!!" kind of tone to train the dogs. Due to the laws of behavior, your dogs could learn to comply with a certain behavior if you stood on your head and remained silent.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

when a dog is testing me, seeing what they can get away with , standing on my head being silent will NOT work  (I get your point though) 
But sometimes u can see it in their eyes , like... "Should I obey... Or should I go have fun...? " and the FIRM LOUD "RIGHT NOW" +CHICKEN = "I guess I MUST obey, she means it! and I get yummy stuff "

The loud voice is the same as barking !  LOL Apollo barks at Lou when she steals his toy! And I "bark at him" when I'm unhappy that he wants to chase a squirrel and that he needs to come back to me! And it works! 
And again, THEY ARE NOT AFRAID OF ME, THEY DO TRUST ME and everything is great! 


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

PB in your house, do you expect your dogs to respond 100 percent reliably to every thing you ask? We are more relaxed around here - if I ask Tangee to come up on the sofa, and she gives me a wag and goes to her bed, that's fine - but my dogs are able to distinguish requests from commands by the tone of my voice and I love that when it is important, I get 100 percent obedience, but that the other 95 percent of the time they get to choose and just be who they are!


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Tiny Poodles said:


> PB in your house, do you expect your dogs to respond 100 percent reliably to every thing you ask? We are more relaxed around here - if I ask Tangee to come up on the sofa, and she gives me a wag and goes to her bed, that's fine - but my dogs are able to distinguish requests from commands by the tone of my voice and I love that when it is important, I get 100 percent obedience, but that the other 95 percent of the time they get to choose and just be who they are!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Same here but Im a bit more strict with this household'a rules. They need to listen 80% of the time on 80% of all situations, and they know which ones. They don't have to get on the couch if they feel like laying on their bed or bring me a toy when they want to play keep away, but pretty much everything else they have to obey  like coming to me to put ear medicine.




By the way, 

Poodlebeguiled,

wouldn't a dog think ear medicine is punishment?! According to "positive reinforcement only rules" I'd think nothing negative can ever happen LOL If a loud voice is unacceptable .. causing discomfort of possibly pain (for the better, to cure an infection) would be terrible in the dog's understanding?
I'm not educated on "positive reinforcement only methods" 
Could you explain how a dog differentiates me holding her down for a few seconds (like I described on one of my first posts) and putting ear medicine which is also uncomfortable or even painful!! 

In my opinion in BOTH situations they know "they HAVE to obey and that I AM NOT being abusive, they know I love them and there's a reason for them obeying and they get , again, CHICKEN!!!! And kisses and hugs too! 


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Your dogs are a decade younger then mine Lou - mine pretty much have everything I would want them to do incorporated in their behavior so there is very little I need to tell them to do - when they were younger, I had much more to say lol!


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Your dogs are a decade younger then mine Lou - mine pretty much have everything I would want them to do incorporated in their behavior so there is very little I need to tell them to do - when they were younger, I had much more to say lol!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Makes sense!  mine are still adolescents! 


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> PB in your house, do you expect your dogs to respond 100 percent reliably to every thing you ask? We are more relaxed around here - if I ask Tangee to come up on the sofa, and she gives me a wag and goes to her bed, that's fine - but my dogs are able to distinguish requests from commands by the tone of my voice and I love that when it is important, I get 100 percent obedience, but that the other 95 percent of the time they get to choose and just be who they are!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Absolutely I don't need them to be little soldiers. And I don't feel any need to dominate their every move. I'm very relaxed and don't even need perfection with everything. I firmly believe in letting dogs be dogs and puppies be puppies. But I also know that dogs need training to get along well in our human world. But I want that training (and that means not only planned out sessions, but interactions with them throughout the day) to be the same as any fun and goofy game. My training is not serious in the least. It's just like I'm playing with them. 

If I want them to come along with me and want compliance for sure, the cue is "let's go." If I want them to come and sit in front of me just so, nice and tidy, the cue is "come." If I would kind of like it if they came up on the couch with me, I'd say, "wanna come up?" And I pat the couch in gesture. And if they don't, that's okay. But they usually do. If I really want them to come up on the couch, I say, "here." If I want to know if they need to go outside, but am not insistent on it, I ask them, "do you want to go outside? Are you sure?" lol. If I really need for them to go outside, "let's go." If it's for potty training purposes, and I really need them to go outside, I say, as we're going out the door, after saying, "let's go," to get them to the door, I tell them additionally, "outside for pee pee."

So when I need to train something in very well, I make sure the cue is paired consistently with the reinforce. If I don't need something to be so exacting, I don't really do anything much. If I need them to stop doing something I don't like, I call them to do something else which IS reinforcing and try to make it something that is similar to what they were doing but something that I don't mind. For instance, getting a magazine I forgot and left on the coffee table. I don't scold or say, ah-ah. I say, "leave it." in a normal speaking voice. If I remember to puppy proof my house better and not leave the magazine on the table, they never find out how fun it is to tear it up, so therefore, they don't get any pay off for it...therefore, the behavior never winds up developing. But of course, we all make mistakes and sometimes don't watch closely enough or leave something out and they get hold of it, having a field day with it. In that case, I still say, "leave it, here...chew on this." And then tell them how wonderful they are to chew on that thing. It should be something even more fun than the magazine. Pretty soon, as long as they don't keep getting reinforced for that, the behavior will extinguish. And there's no risk of the dog wondering if he's going to get into trouble, if I'm going to get scary. He just learns to leave my good stuff alone. And as they mature out of puppyhood, those silly antics become less appealing to them anyhow. "When I became an adult, I put away childish things." lol. And they do. 

But they're hundreds of times more likely to try things when they're not scolded too much. If they get stopped with positive punishment, (adding something to decrease a behavior) even pretty mild...it doesn't have to be horrible, it's like they're being stopped, not encouraged forward....like putting on brakes instead of the accelerator. And that tends to make a dog primarily engage in things he is told to do, not see if this or that might work. I want my dogs to try stuff, even if it turns out it's not what I wanted. And that's because the more they try stuff, the higher the odds that they'll hit on the thing I like and then they get that behavior marked with a "Yesssss!" or a clicker and reinforced. And that behavior will be repeated in the future. 

The more desirable behaviors that are learned, the fewer obnoxious behaviors will occur because 1) they only have so much brain space. 2) they're kept busy, 3) this huge bank account of rewarded behaviors become reinforcing in and of themselves. That happens with PR training. It is like a gas tank. The more reinforcement goes into the tank, the better and longer they run. If you take the opportunity that could have been used for positive reinforcement...no brakes on, no stop light, no empty gas tank, and waste that opportunity on punishment, you're not adding emphasizing what TO DO instead. So, I always look at every opportunity, when I interact with my dogs to see if I can add some more gas to the tank or more money to the bank account. If it's a bad behavior I don't want, I distract, give an alternative and reinforce. The next time I try to prevent it in the first place. That's even better. Set the dog and his environment up for success. In other words, not let it happen too much that we wait for an unwanted behavior and _then_ have to deal with it. 

Sure, I'm human (a primate, lol) and I slip up sometimes and tell them to shut up when they don't stop barking. I get annoyed same as anyone. But that is not training. It is because of me, laziness on my part if they don't stop barking when I give the cue, "enough" which I taught, but not all the way. I do get busy sometimes and just can't get to it all. So, no, I'm not 100% PR, whatever that could possibly be. But I strive to stick to what I know in my heart of hearts makes dogs do everything they're trained to do reliable. And I love how they do moving behaviors, like come, sit, down, drop on recall, jump, you name it....with great gusto. No hesitating, no wondering if it's the wrong way or they might get a strong, scary voice toward them. That never enters their mind. This is what makes for excellence in precision training...obedience, rally, agility...those dogs are trained without "corrections"...the ones that are worth their weight...no stopping them, no cause for hesitation or worry about doing something right. Some agility dogs are the worst behaved dogs you'd ever see. But that's because they've been told not to scold or say, "eh eh" even but not given an alternative. (sound familiar?)lol. What some of those people don't realize that PR does not mean permissive. Who wants an unruly, insane, ill behaved dog? That's why I posted a cool video called how to train a crazy dog. It's really neat. But I doubt anyone looked at it because you're all sure that I'm full of it. I like how PR emphasis minus compulsion gets excellent reliability with a lot of fringe benefits. It's flat out fun for dog and owner, no antagonism, no threats, none of that. Oh well...Like I said, I've trained _both_ ways. Will never go back to compulsive training or that kind of dominating relationship with my dogs.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Lou said:


> Same here but Im a bit more strict with this household'a rules. They need to listen 80% of the time on 80% of all situations, and they know which ones. They don't have to get on the couch if they feel like laying on their bed or bring me a toy when they want to play keep away, but pretty much everything else they have to obey  like coming to me to put ear medicine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oy vey Lou, I don't think any amount of explaining is going to get through. And I'm about to have an extinction burst. You like what you do and I don't mind. No I don't think you're abusing your dog. Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm just talking about what I think are superior ways to deal with dogs and it's not just me, believe it. And I talk about some side effects that aren't so great that come with compulsive treatment. Dogs, in my view and many peoples' view are not put on this earth to be dominated forcefully....just because they're weaker and we can, doesn't mean we should. If there are better, more effective ways, then why on earth wouldn't someone want to explore that? That's what makes me incredulous.

Yes, we have to put ear medicine in the dogs and do awful things to them sometimes. My dogs hated the idea of Dremeling their nails but I paired that procedure with the highest value treats I could find and a very cheerful, confident, like this is no big deal, you're fine....kind of voice. I worked gradually... Same with ear drops or eye drops or plucking ear hair or any other miserable thing that dogs have to have done to them. It is what it is. I try to make things as easy as possible. But I'm not going to let an ear infection ruin my dog because I want to spare him that unpleasantness. Yeah and you'll say, I won't let my dog run out the fence and get hit by a car so I'll yell at him and spook him and then give him chicken. The only diference is that there ARE alternatives free for the taking for teaching a reliable, precision obedient dog. I don't know of an alternative for an ear infection other than some medicine or clipping or filing their nails other than a file or clippers. Oy, this is too tiring for me. Done. Do what you like. Stay where you are. Don't look ahead. I'm sure you're not abusing your dogs, probably subduing them a little bit or toning them down some and probably not getting all you could out of them. You are happy where you are. That's okay. Stay put.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oy vey Lou, I don't think any amount of explaining is going to get through. And I'm about to have an extinction burst. You like what you do and I don't mind. No I don't think you're abusing your dog. Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm just talking about what I think are superior ways to deal with dogs and it's not just me, believe it. And I talk about some side effects that aren't so great that come with compulsive treatment. Dogs, in my view and many peoples' view are not put on this earth to be dominated forcefully....just because they're weaker and we can, doesn't mean we should. If there are better, more effective ways, then why on earth wouldn't someone want to explore that? That's what makes me incredulous.
> 
> Yes, we have to put ear medicine in the dogs and do awful things to them sometimes. My dogs hated the idea of Dremeling their nails but I paired that procedure with the highest value treats I could find and a very cheerful, confident, like this is no big deal, you're fine....kind of voice. I worked gradually... Same with ear drops or eye drops or plucking ear hair or any other miserable thing that dogs have to have done to them. It is what it is. I try to make things as easy as possible. But I'm not going to let an ear infection ruin my dog because I want to spare him that unpleasantness. Yeah and you'll say, I won't let my dog run out the fence and get hit by a car so I'll yell at him and spook him and then give him chicken. The only diference is that there ARE alternatives free for the taking for teaching a reliable, precision obedient dog. I don't know of an alternative for an ear infection other than some medicine or clipping or filing their nails other than a file or clippers. Oy, this is too tiring for me. Done. Do what you like. Stay where you are. Don't look ahead. I'm sure you're not abusing your dogs, probably subduing them a little bit or toning them down some and probably not getting all you could out of them. You are happy where you are. That's okay. Stay put.


I was actually curious that's all. I appreciate you explaining 


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

PB please tell me exactly what you would do if one of your puppies peed on the rug right in front of you.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Don't you suppose police dogs need to do what they're asked NOW, immediately, with precision and accuracy, reliability, consistency? Have you ever watched some of this guy's videos? He is highly regarded and uses only PR training with thousands of dogs, likely harder dogs than Poodles. 



> Steve White
> 
> As a police officer, Steve White was trainer for one the largest police K-9 units in Washington State. With K-9 assignments occupying much of his 25 years in law enforcement, he handled and trained patrol and narcotics dogs for military, county, and city law enforcement agencies. Accredited as a Master Trainer in 1993 by the Washington State Police Canine Association. Steve is an instructor for the K9 Academy for Law Enforcement, and has instructed at police K-9 seminars across the U.S.. He has been recognized as an expert witness by Washington courts in police K-9 and dog behavior matters.
> 
> ...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> PB please tell me exactly what you would do if one of your puppies peed on the rug right in front of you.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


They have. I scooped them up and took them outside quickly and then hopefully, they could finish outside if they didn't already empty it all on my floor. If I think they just started, I'll try to interrupt them with a clap of my hands, but not so loud as to frighten or startle the heck out of them. Yes, you can call it an aversive. It is or an interrupter. And I'd reinforce them if they pee outside big time. This has happened a few times....my fault for not watching them closely enough. In the best of scenarios, I'd watch them better and I would try not to be so busy (lol), take them out more often, if I thought I didn't give them enough opportunity. It's_ my _fault if they pee inside, not theirs. They have no clue that it's "wrong." The best way is prevention. The more times they're rewarded outside and the fewer times I make a mistake, the sooner they get onto it. That's how it's gone for the time I've had dogs as an adult....55 years. Before that, my parents probably trained them...that is unclear now in my mind.




> No Punishing! - Potty Training A Puppy
> No Punishing!
> 
> 
> ...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I realize that most of my posts are incredibly long and probably not very well written. But I think, if you're disbelieving or positive I'm full of it, if you read carefully through, it might make more sense to you. It might open a new door. I read for sometimes 8 - 12 hours a day for about 8 -10 years straight while living like a virtual hermit in my Idaho cabin about dog behavior...obsessively. I poured over every dog training or behavior book I could get my hands on and the Internet and had mentors and classes and seminars... and took animal behavior in school. I've been training dogs for a long time successfully. I'm as old as dirt, been around the block a few times where dogs are concerned. I _do_ know behavior. Trust me for the love of God. LOL! :act-up:

I hate to sound like bragging because there are tons of people who are better trainers than I am, for sure. And I forget things sometimes and don't know all there is to know...always more to learn. But I just wanted to present some facts as to where I'm coming from as they say.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Geez, I think that the biggest difference in our training style is semantics - interrupt, startle, no, ahh-ahh, sharp inhalation, scoop them up, roll them over, time out, in the crate,harsh voice, sharp voice, soft voice, serious voice, firm voice - yell, rant and rave lol - different ones for different dogs - all attempts to tell them that we don't like what they are doing , followed by setting them up to do the right thing and big rewards for that. 


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## cindyreef (Sep 28, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled, Please don't be so hard on yourself. You are doing perfectly fine and I thank you and others here like you for doing all that reading, etc. , so we all can benefit from it. 

Ive been at this a while too (old as dirt) lol . But as much time with horses as with dogs. I would compare my preferred method similar to Lou with PR. I suppose making sure they know who "to be obedient to" comes from the horses more so due to personal safety. The dogs were a lot closer to us but understood the verbal as well as the body language the same way the horses did. I agree we do it instinctively (after a few years) and the timing is something we just develop over time. I would never harm a hair on their backs, I loved them more than life itself. Heck even the parrot knew when he heard "AH AH" it meant business and he would bounce around in defiance but still do what he was told.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Pulezze - I understand my dog's body language - Teaka was a submissive dog from day one ( I think specifically chosen by my breeder since she was to be the third in an all female pack), and she turned out to be a fine dog in my home - though I am pretty sure that in inexperienced hands she would have been a submissively urinating terrified mess. And while you can shape a dog and build their confidence, which I most definitely did with her, i do not think that you can Completely change their nature - and that is why I added how Taylee, a more confident dog would have reacted in the same situation.
> Point being, two of my dogs with entirely different temperaments, both with perfect recalls under distraction, whilst running after something (with Taylee it would have been her ball) - neither one would hesitate for a split second to return to me despite the "harsh" command.
> But then when you think about it, aren't commands normally harsh? Requests, which imply an option to say no, are not what you want to do on a recall.
> 
> ...


I missed this post before. We've gone so fast that I'm sure some posts might have been missed.

As to the bolded part, No, commands don't need to sound harsh. I ask my dogs do to things, not command them. I can whisper cues to them. In some cases...like with my Dobe, Lab and most recent GSD, I taught them to come using the word, "come"...also to a silent whistle and also to only a visual cue with my arm. In formal obedience you can use a verbal or visual cue but not both. Many of my "commands" for a variety of behaviors were visual. Stay for instance. I said nothing to my Doberman. I walked away from him, leading off with my right foot if he was suppose to stay, whether he was in a sit or a down. If I lead off with my left foot, that meant to heel. If I didn't want to think about which foot, if it wasn't a formal thing but I still wanted him to stay, I flicked my wrist close to my side as I started to walk away. He had a very reliable stay and he learned to stay with me out of his view. No firm vocal stuff needed.

The idea of thinking you need a harsh or firm or strict sounding voice to give a command stems from anthropomorphism, I think. It has trickled down since the old school ways with dogs where people thought dogs had a hierarchy and needed to be put in their place with humans having the upper hand or else they might rise up and take over the household. This absolutely ridiculous and inaccurate, false information has stuck around. People have a very hard time letting go of it because humans like power. It may be subconscious or something else. But no, dogs do not need to have a firm hand in order to train them regardless of the dog, regardless of what we're teaching. Consequences drive behavior, not commands or cues. Consequences can be harsh or not. For the behaviors we don't prevent, there are still other ways. We have one advantage over dogs and that is we are more intelligent and we can use our minds to train dogs, not our hands. (figuratively)

I don't know if you waded through that outrageously long post of mine, but I wish you would because maybe you'd see something you misunderstood from me before....not sure. 

As far as semantics, I'm not so sure that it is all about semantics. Yes, I use interrupters but not for any more than I feel is needed. For instance, the dog is already peeing on the rug, so I want to manage (key word) the situation. The dogs are getting into a fight, I might say, "hey!!!" to interrupt and then do something else. Management before they draw blood. Management vs. training. These things where I feel a need to interrupt right now are things I tell myself, "Okay, we need to work on a training protocol for this." So, I set to work analyzing what I think is the underlying issue and then go about installing something to change that outlook and show the dog what he can do instead. There's a difference between management like in an emergency and training. Scolding, loud, scary, bossy isn't needed for training.

I yelled super loud at Jose` once when he was running after a black bear on my property. Now, I'm a singer mind you and know how to use my diaphram. They could have heard me 1/2 mile away at the little convenience store, I swear. And that bear was scared out of his mind. Poor thing. Never mind Jose`. But Jose` came back. I was FREAKED. I didn't want to take any chances so I reverted back to my old ways and screeched at him to come, not consciously. That isn't training. In fact, screeching can make a dog run faster away from you. LOL. But it was sheer adrenaline. 

So when I talk about gentle, non threatening, soft training methods, that is what I believe in, what I strive for always and have for a long time, but what I am imperfect with still. It's a long time process to go from stern, strict, firm, loud, collar corrections, choke collars, "no, no, no, no" to...... okay Carrie, stop and think. What's a more effective way here which will not cause undo stress hormones to be released and respiration, blood pressure and heart rate to increase, (all kinds of studies and research on this) which will not make my dog wonder if he's going to get scolded and should "I" (the dog) try this or might I get in trouble. What can I do that causes the least wear and tear on my dog but still teach him to be really well trained, a really pleasant, easy house companion to live with and who others will welcome into their homes. How can I fix this? How can I make sure I'm not perceiving this from a human's way of thinking and look how dogs think and learn?

It sounds like you've done remarkable things with your once timid one. Absolutely, their temperament is what they're born with. We can compensate to a degree but can't change their temperament. My son's dog is another example of one screwed up gal who suffered horrific abuse.... and she's just amazing now, you'd never know it (she's in some of my snow pictures...a Pit Bull type mix)...had to have been born with a stable temperament. She's just lovely now. When she lived with me, she was handled with kid gloves and never told "no" about anything. She was shown things and gentled along. Just an amazingly loving, trusting, smart as the dickens dog. I'm so bonded to her, it's going to hurt when she's gone and she's getting up there in age.


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## 12489 (Apr 2, 2013)

I would assume that using anything but positive reinforcement would be detrimental for poodles because they are so sensitive. Even with my 3 Pyrenees, as big as they were, positive reinforcement was most ideal because all three were also very sensitive and smart, though not poodle smart. 

Am I wrong to think that this is the most ideal way to train my spoo. 

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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

cindyreef said:


> Poodlebeguiled, Please don't be so hard on yourself. You are doing perfectly fine and I thank you and others here like you for doing all that reading, etc. , so we all can benefit from it.
> 
> Ive been at this a while too (old as dirt) lol . But as much time with horses as with dogs. I would compare my preferred method similar to Lou with PR. I suppose making sure they know who "to be obedient to" comes from the horses more so due to personal safety. The dogs were a lot closer to us but understood the verbal as well as the body language the same way the horses did. I agree we do it instinctively (after a few years) and the timing is something we just develop over time. I would never harm a hair on their backs, I loved them more than life itself. Heck even the parrot knew when he heard "AH AH" it meant business and he would bounce around in defiance but still do what he was told.


I missed your post before too! :ahhhhh: I had horses too, most of my life until recently. And trained them. I know what you mean about safety. I was a little more firm with them...more bossy I guess you'd say. As I got older though, I got more into PR, not as much with the horses, but I know people do and do so successfully. The most recent horses I had were Arabian mares and they were _very_ sensitive....couldn't take too much harsh stuff. I also got them when they were 4.5 years old and off a 1700 acre ranch in Wyoming...never broken to ride and one was more skittish than the other who was bottle fed, as her mother was struck by lightening and killed at 2 weeks of age. So she was more comfortable with things. They both had to be broken (I hate that word) to ride. They weren't broken. They were gradually conditioned the way I do with dogs basically. Anyhow, I know the inclination you feel with horses and being VERY consistent. They are the epitome of give an inch, take a mile. 

It's just that the principles of learning behavior, implementing the concepts correctly negate the use of force and bossiness. I'm still a little bossy sometimes. Maybe I don't even think my voice is bossy but is. (?) lol.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Myfluffyjoia said:


> I would assume that using anything but positive reinforcement would be detrimental for poodles because they are so sensitive. Even with my 3 Pyrenees, as big as they were, positive reinforcement was most ideal because all three were also very sensitive and smart, though not poodle smart.
> 
> Am I wrong to think that this is the most ideal way to train my spoo.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think you're spot on in using good, sound concepts of PR. Like I've mentioned, my Doberman was VERY sensitive and they are not a breed to put up too much pushing around. People often think Dobermans are hard a$$ dogs but they're not when it comes to their families. It can really ruin them and the relationship of trust to be constantly telling them "no" or being harsh. Of course, "no" is meaningless. It's just an English word that only makes sense to them if it is followed by some kind of punishment or it's a frightening sounding voice. Something bad has to be associated with whatever word you use to stop a behavior. So when people say the dog stops when they firmly say, "no" but the dog is not experiencing any ill affects, I wonder how they stop the behavior then. It has to be reinforcing or punishing, one or the other to change a behavior. Anyhow, he was a dream to train and was one of the best dogs I've ever had. Ever since him, I've never gone back to compulsive methods. I love the bond I have with my dogs and the relationship I get this way compared to how I use to train back in the old days. lol. Of course, I was never very harsh because I just can't. But there is a difference.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oops, ha ha - we have been going on and on about tone of voice and I forgot to mention - I much prefer hand signals - I think that dogs respond to them much better then verbal commands!
But, when a dog is running away, that's always "bear time" - exactly because we can't control our emotions at that moment, it is best that our dogs know from prior experience that the voice is nothing to be scared of !


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oops, ha ha - we have been going on and on about tone of voice and I forgot to mention - I much prefer hand signals - I think that dogs respond to them much better then verbal commands!
> *But, when a dog is running away, that's always "bear time" - exactly because we can't control our emotions at that moment, it is best that our dogs know from prior experience that the voice is nothing to be scared of !*
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Why not? They better be scared. lol. If they're not scared or shocked into sensibilities, what's the use?

Did you read about Steve White? What an impressive guy.

Okay, I'm going to go watch Gun Smoke and then go to bed. haha. Ya didn't know that about me, did ya....that I like old westerns. LOL. Must be the horses and I love to watch the quick draw. hahahaha


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oops, ha ha - we have been going on and on about tone of voice and I forgot to mention - I much prefer hand signals - I think that dogs respond to them much better then verbal commands!
> But, when a dog is running away, that's always "bear time" - exactly because we can't control our emotions at that moment, it is best that our dogs know from prior experience that the voice is nothing to be scared of !
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I have trained my dogs to come when called in calm voice, loud voice, sweet voice, and panicky voice!! LOL
Because ya never know.... Lol

I know of another PF member that did that too, don't remember who and I think it's funny but useful 


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

And by the way, I have never in my life snapped a dogs neck on a leash and I never would.
When Teaka was a puppy we signed up for a class with a trainer that my vet recommended without auditing and it was horrific! That woman was snapping dogs on regular collars every 10 seconds. I still remember her taking a jumpy dog to the middle to demonstrate and she snapped and snapped it until it settled and you know what - it took the exact same amount of time to settle that a dog in a class that Tangee had taken, of the same breed took in the exact same scenario but with the trainer simply ignoring it until it settled! 
When she took another dog into the middle to demonstrate sit, she also snapped it into position - trying to lead her into explaining marking the behavior, I called out "and when do we give her a treat", and she replied "every once in a while when you feel like it"!
I went to a couple of classes thinking oh well, I will train Teaka the right way and it will still be good to do it with distractions, but by the time the woman decided to arm everyone in the room with cans of binaca breath spray to punish their dogs for barking or mouthing, I realized that the fear in the room was so palpable that even though nothing bad was being done to Teaka, it was making her even more timid and fearful then she was to begin with and we dropped out!
So on one hand, I understand why, with trainers like that still around doing that kind of crap, why you need to shout out against abusive training methods, I think that you are projecting some of your feelings about them onto people like Lou and me...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Why not? They better be scared. lol. If they're not scared or shocked into sensibilities, what's the use?
> 
> Did you read about Steve White? What an impressive guy.
> 
> Okay, I'm going to go watch Gun Smoke and then go to bed. haha. Ya didn't know that about me, did ya....that I like old westerns. LOL. Must be the horses and I love to watch the quick draw. hahahaha


Why not scare them?! Because you want them to run to you, not away from you! 


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think there is a bit of a trap in the "I really mean it" voice, which I fell into with Sophy. When she was a pup I had grasped the advantages of reward based training, but not internalised the principles to the extent PoodleBeguiled has done - and I used a lot of voice corrections and an increasingly firm tone. The result is that she now tends to treat softly voiced cues as optional, and only snapped words as must dos. I lost the opportunity to gain that joyous compliance every time through my own ignorance. It's not that she is cowed or shut down in any way, just that she is in some ways more intelligent than I am and she knows it (she has better hearing, better distance eyesight, better scenting, better reading of human and canine body language, better judgement of what is and is not edible...), so she weighs the pros and cons in every situation. Poppy was easier in some ways, as she was a rather nervous pup and I was concentrating on building her confidence, so I got better at positive training almost by default!

I remember watching some videos of the very first agility trials at Crufts - the dogs competing would almost inevitably have been originally obedience trained, using the old military, Barbara Woodhouse approach. It was an eye opener - the humans were more or less taking them round the course, micro managing every obstacle, while the dogs' eyes were glued to their owners waiting to see what they were expected to do next. All tight mouths, anxious eyes, and scarcely a tail wag in sight. Huge difference now, when most dogs are quivering with excited anticipation, and run with huge grins on their faces!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have enjoyed this thread, lots of good info here. I think it all comes to... we all love our dogs, each of us does what works for us and our home, no dogs are being abused, scared or mistreated in anyway. And if it is working for you...JUST DO IT.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

In some ways, this thread reminds me of the years, in another life, that I worked as a lactation consultant. There was a fairly strong bias against breastfeeding, even (or especially) among some of the nurses and physicians on staff, so I spent much of my time trying gently to bring both staff and parents to see my (more enlightened!) point of view. My approach with parents was simply to lay out the facts, explain the physical and emotional benefits as I saw them, offer my help for as long as they needed it, and allow them to make their own decisions, without badgering or conveying that I was disappointed with them for whatever choices they made. I assumed that all of them loved their babies and would do what they thought was best in their own situation. 

My approach to the staff was more directive. Because I was managing the lactation program, I had the authority to say, "I know you don't agree, but this is the way we're going to do it," and when it was necessary, I did. No matter how frustrated I got with them, though, it was almost always counter-productive to be aggressively confrontational.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Why not scare them?! Because you want them to run to you, not away from you!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Yes! Exactly my point.

I do not think you treat your dog like that "trainer" you describe...never did think anything close to that. I'm just explaining what I feel about "eh eh" "no!" in a firm tone vs. distracting, giving a rewardable alternative and reinforcing. And setting the dog up for success in the first place to prevent unwanted behaviors before they happen....when possible. If I told my dogs "no!" and "eh eh" for everything they did that I didn't want them to do without doing anything else, I'd be doing that all day long. They'd shut down and stop behaving period. I think if you read my long post, you'd see what I mean, the reasons for not doing that. But oh well.


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## doditwo (Nov 7, 2017)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I've done some research into some of those things and some of the stuff they use to think a long time ago, they start to re-think lately. For instance, they've always said dogs don't recognize themselves in a mirror and that is supposedly the test of whether or not they possess a sense of self. I wonder though.



I read in a book by Alexandra Horowitz Being A Dog Following A Dog Into A World of Smell that she suspected dogs didn’t pass the mirror test because unlike primates they just aren’t that keyed from visual input unless they see movement movement. She did a follow up study was using 35 dogs and their sense of smell. She found that if containers held a cotton ball with pee from other dogs and the subject dog that the dog unsurprisingly would never mark their own pee, but what was most revealing how every dog reacted with alarm and concern to containers of their own pee that had been mixed with a bit of deceased dog pee. Kind of like the red dot that the chimps saw on themselves in the mirror.

So quite possibly this shows that dogs are self aware, and that the mirror test didn’t show this because dogs are primarily olifactory not visual animals.

Think about it if humans were presented with a cotton ball of our own pee, we probably would fail that self awareness test Lol.

I highly recommend anything written by Alexandra Horowitz for fascinating and science based insight to how dogs perceive the world. Really helpful, actually necessary, precondition to understand and train our dog companion regardless of one’s philosophy.
Thanks for starting this thread! I love everyone’s point of view and I’m learning a lot from so much of members deep experience.




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## doditwo (Nov 7, 2017)

Tiny Poodles said:


> And by the way, I have never in my life snapped a dogs neck on a leash and I never would.
> When Teaka was a puppy we signed up for a class with a trainer that my vet recommended without auditing and it was horrific! That woman was snapping dogs on regular collars every 10 seconds...
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Many years ago I took my new Young rescue dog to the local training class and it was the same thing: sharp jerks on the choke chain constantly.
I knew nothing at the time but instinctively felt really bad, especially at the betrayed look on my wonderful dog’s face. She reacted angrily and associated the mistreatment to the circle of leashed dogs.
The instructor threw us out of the class and told us not to come back, saying my dog was too vicious.
After that my dog became severely leash reactive. When other dogs were off leash she was fine and perfectly socialized with them, but she would attack them if they were on a leash. This had never happened before but stupidly I thought something must be wrong, maybe my girl was an “alpha dog” and such nonsense. But in those days that’s all there was and I was very uneducated so I didn’t know there were alternatives, solutions or that it was not my dogs “temperament” rather it was all due to being traumatized by me, who she trusted, in that class.
She forgave me but since I didn’t know what to do you can imagine how curtailed our life together was with few opportunities for walking in public. I’d take her to remote areas or let her run free in dog parks and dog beaches where she got along fine with every off leash dog she met.
That’s why threads like this are important education. Lots of people including dog newbies read PF.
Bravo to everyone here sharing. Perfect agreement isn’t nessecary. Education against abuse dressed up like “dog training” (which everyone in this thread does recognize for what it is) can’t be warned against too much.




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