# owners vs. handler vs. breeder



## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

I was just reading the thread about Karat's win (congratulations, by the way!) and thought I'd ask a few questions.

After spending a few weeks poking around here and other sites to learn about poodles, naturally I am seeing a lot of talk about showing. I've never educated myself on the world of dog showing and I'm finding it very fascinating.

So, correct me if I am wrong, but am I right in my understanding that some owners pay people to train and show their pets? And, if so, why would someone do that if they weren't a breeder? I had always assumed it was breeders paying people to show their dogs for improving their reputation, so to speak. However, Karat's thread has me all confused now! 

Anyone wanna enlighten this pound-puppy-gone-all-poodly chick?


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

True, it is mostly breeders (or those interested in breeding) who show, but some people just enjoy the hobby of going to shows (even if someone else shows the dog), or the fun of being able to say they have a Champion. Maybe the dog's breeder has encouraged them to show. It can be quite fun: I've shown a poodle and a couple of borzoi in conformation with *never* having the slightest desire to breed--I just did it for fun and socializing with other breed fans.

In many breeds, it is quite possible to show your own dog to a championship. This is a very, very difficult task in Poodles, as the ring is dominated with handlers, breeders, and the sort of semi-accepted / tolerated rules violations which may be quite difficult for a novice owner-handler to navigate.

--Q


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

interesting! so, how does that normally work?

say i want a handler to train _and_ show my pet. are handlers typically dedicated to only one dog or might they show multiple? might they even show multiples that compete against each other? is dog handling a full-time job for some? how much time would my pet have to spend with a handler and would i, the owner, be trained as well so as to reinforce what is learned at home, or is pretty much all taught only when with a handler?

i'm purely curious as i don't forsee myself ever being in the position to pursue any of this, but like i said- it is fascinating!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Yes, it's very cool stuff, isn't it? I'm fascinated by it, too!

Some of your questions will be better answered by the more experienced, but I can say a little. _Yes,_ there are people whose complete living is showing dogs. They do indeed show multiple dogs of multiple breeds, and there are many "famous" handlers. Check out this site for the Professional Handlers Association. If you go to a show, try to pick up a copy of Dog News or Canine Chronicle (often found in boxes in the aisles of conformation shows, these magazines are sent free to AKC judges and are full of ads for show dogs). Pro handler have what's know as a "string" of dogs they show, yes, sometimes of dogs that compete against one another at some time or other. They have assistants to help if there are conflicts. Many handlers specialize in a group or certain breeds or types of dog. Naturally, showing Poodles is a very particular skill. 

Some people send their dog to the handler for complete care: the handler trains, boards, conditions, and shows the dog for however long it takes. The dog lives with the handler until it's finished, or whenever. Or, the owner can do most of the work, training, and conditioning themselves, and just hand the dog over the handler at the show. With poodles, this is a little more difficult due to the coat care involved. I actually attended a conformation handling class with my Cappy, and his breeder touched up his trim at shows, and I handled him. 

It might seem difficult to be away from your dog for so long, but really, in the poodle ring a pro can get the job done much more quickly than an amateur, so you're without your dog for a bit, but then it's done and the hair can GO! But of course if you enjoy that sort of thing, that's all part of the journey you take together.

Hope this helps! I'm not so much into conformation any more, but I enjoyed it when I was doing it and still might show my Shuggy in UKC, where Partis are allowed and the haircuts don't have to be so extreme. I had a lot of fun with it back in the day and still love the ad magazines and such. 

--Q


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

i appreciate all the info! there was a big show near me last weekend but i didn't find out about it in time to plan to go. i'd love to sometime though.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

kukukachoo said:


> i'm purely curious as i don't forsee myself ever being in the position to pursue any of this, but like i said- it is fascinating!


 Never say never.  

I like showing. I used to show boxers until my kids got too busy and all consuming. I did breed a few litters for fun. I don't have any boxers anymore. I then had a poodle and a whippet. I loved that poodle so much that when she passed, I got another one. She was turning out so nicely I decided to do UKC showing with her United Kennel Club (UKC) is a more relaxed type of show that focuses more on the preformance ablilty of the dogs along with the conformation. There are no handlers or any of that and they can be shown in a sporting cut. I really had fun doing that and made a lot of friends, but I wanted to try AKC showing again...possibly. The trouble is, showing standard poodles is nothing like showing boxers. With a boxer you have a good dog or you don't and you have no hair to deal with. With poodles you have that massive amount of hair, there are loads of politics and most people do use handlers with standard poodles, which is expensive. Plus, AKC shows cost a lot more than UKC shows. I still think I would like to try. 

I went about getting the very best poodle I could taking into consideration other things more important to me than conformation (pet first, health tested parents, intelligence and temperament). I waited almost a year for a particular breeding to an AKC ch. sire with a temperament to die for and a gorgeous face and a dam with a fabulous body and nice poodly personality. I now have Jazz, who if things go okay, I want to try to show AKC. I will know within a few months if he would be competitive there, but I did my best choosing when I had to choose at a really young age. 

So far, I am very pleased with most things conformation wise. I need to wait for his adult teeth to come in to see his final bite, watch if he grows into his extreme legs better or not and hope his hair starts growing more! I am pleased with his front end and his movement is looking pretty good, too. While I wait, I am enjoying his lovely personality. If he doesn't seem to be cutting it for AKC, I will do UKC again with him. I will probably do UKC starting right at 6 months and see how it goes and maybe try AKC when he is 9 or 10 months old. 

I am not a poodle breeder. It's a sport or hobby or fun for me. I love most dog people. I go to dog shows just to watch and learn. I am going to join a conformation class when he is 4 1/2 months old to get him used to more strangers feeling all over him. In the mean time, I fret about hair. The newest concern is that he is pitch black and it is always sunny in SoCal and how do I keep him from getting sunbleached? I also worry about shaving his face just right so I don't mess up his eventual head hair. LOL. 

So, no, breeders are not the only ones in the show ring in AKC. You should find the next dog show near you and go check out the poodles. The schedules are often on line so you will know when they show. Dog shows are free to go to and they have lots of neat doggy things to buy.

I am not sure if I will go with a handler or not if Jazz does AKC. It depends on how comfortable I might feel showing him if in the ring with a bunch of professionals. At this moment, I have no firm plans for him. Many people who really want to be serious about showing get a dog at around 6 months of age that the breeder has held onto. At that age, you have a decent idea of how they'll do.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

wow- so many factors to consider! that's incredible all that goes into it. i'll look forward to seeing jazz grow then!


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

The top handlers for poodles are not necessarily in the Professional Handlers Association (PHA). They have more than enough clients and turn down more poodles than they accept. Some will only accept black or white dogs. 

With my Karat, we have her prepared for each show (the Friday before the show) by her regular groomer and then her handler does a final touch-up before showing and charges a fee for the touch-up and in ring handling. 

Of course, her groomer is also a pro handler and poodle breeder. The reason we take this route with Karat is that 1) she is very young and I don't want to give her up for a month or so that it would take to get her finished and 2) that I video tape and learn handling techniques so that I would eventually be able to show her myself. It is not less expensive than giving her up, except for the boarding costs which are not excessive, however she also doesn't sit in a crate at the show when she is not in the ring. 

Everything is a trade-off. Karat is so much a part of our family that I can't even consider letting her go on the road with a handler. I would rather travel with her to the show. There are others that don't even attend their dog's shows and just wait for their dog to be returned as either a finished champ or as "there is not enough money on earth to finish this dog".


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## HighStandard Poodles (Oct 5, 2012)

It not as hard as one might think to show/train your own
dog.In my opinion it all starts with your breeder show dogs and 
most Litters bred by a show breeder are groomed stacked and gone 
over from the day there born even puppies the breeder is sending to
Pet homes. I got my male from a very good breeder in California.
I received him at 12weeks old and man this pup had the basics down
and this made training that much easyer and fun. As for owner
handling I love it it's a great way to bond. I guess im a true dog show hobbyist lol I train Handle and even groom and show Groom my own dogs I just put my 7 month old leap in a continental clip last night if any one has any questions about handling or showing there own dog feel free to ask!


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## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Marcoislandmom said:


> The top handlers for poodles are not necessarily in the Professional Handlers Association (PHA). They have more than enough clients and turn down more poodles than they accept. Some will only accept black or white dogs.
> 
> With my Karat, we have her prepared for each show (the Friday before the show) by her regular groomer and then her handler does a final touch-up before showing and charges a fee for the touch-up and in ring handling.
> 
> ...



I also wanted to have Madonna shown the way you mention BUT I dont think it will work for us. I think some dogs need to develop a relationship with the handler before they will shine in the ring. Id love traveling to the shows with her and will try to go see as many as possible..but the more I have worked with her the more I think she will only look for me if I hand her over at a show :-( Now Stella..she would go happily with anyone anytime


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

That's what I think about Jazz, too. I am hoping the conformation class helps me, but the last several shows I have gone to have been all professional handlers...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Ms Stella said:


> I also wanted to have Madonna shown the way you mention BUT I dont think it will work for us. I think some dogs need to develop a relationship with the handler before they will shine in the ring. Id love traveling to the shows with her and will try to go see as many as possible..but the more I have worked with her the more I think she will only look for me if I hand her over at a show :-( Now Stella..she would go happily with anyone anytime


I think ring-siding can be hard for some dogs until they have been showing long enough to know the difference between work and play. For example, toward the end of T's show career (when he was briefly specialing), I could bring him to a show and his handler could show him. He could see me in the morning before he showed and he'd do fine (largely this was because I had started showing him myself a bit - so seeing me at the setup didn't necessarily correlate with playtime anymore.) 

Early in his career, when he was a puppy, he really needed to be away from mommy and get into his ZEN show focus mode. And because he's extra extra attached to mommy, he could only see me after the last day of the show, not each day after he was finished.

Sometimes it is just easier to send them out with the handler while they are actively showing. They can always come sit out at home in between show weekends if you live fairly close.


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