# Is breeding for mental traits better than breeding only for physical?



## *tina* (Jan 3, 2010)

I think if the dog is of sound body they are more likely to be of sound mind. Of course, I've never bred dogs, and probably never plan on it, but isn't temperament/mental quality just as important in the standard as the physical aspect?


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

*tina* said:


> ... isn't temperament/mental quality just as important in the standard as the physical aspect?


More so, to some!! As a strictly pet poodle owner (not a dog show person) temperament/mental quality is much more important to me than physical traits (although my girl is calm, sweet, smart AND beautiful! Can't beat a combination like that!) :lol:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Could not agree more. Hopefully most breeders are doing it with both aspects in mind, but with all the pressure to have the perfect dog conformationally, I think a lot of times the disposition and sound mental qualities are forgotten along the way. Perfect head, perfect angulation, perfect chest, perfect feet, perfect ear set, perfect colour, perfect chest, perfect topline, perfect tail set....to me none of it matters a bit if the dog behaves like the tasmanian devil. For me, temperament and fabulous health are the priorities, and I have happened to be blessed with great looking dogs in the process. I know what I need to do to assure the conformation continually improves, but without health and temperament, what would be the point?


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Could not agree more. Hopefully most breeders are doing it with both aspects in mind, but with all the pressure to have the perfect dog conformationally, I think a lot of times the disposition and sound mental qualities are forgotten along the way. Perfect head, perfect angulation, perfect chest, perfect feet, perfect ear set, perfect colour, perfect chest, perfect topline, perfect tail set....to me none of it matters a bit if the dog behaves like the tasmanian devil. For me, temperament and fabulous health are the priorities, and I have happened to be blessed with great looking dogs in the process. I know what I need to do to assure the conformation continually improves, but without health and temperament, what would be the point?


Once again I have to say that I couldn't agree with you more. Temperament and health are the most important things (Nobody should have to undergo the heartbreak of losing a pet before they live to a ripe old age)! Beauty is wonderful but not at the expense of the other things.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

KPoos said:


> From *An Appeal to Dog Breeders *"is a sad but undeniable fact that
> breeding to a strict standard of physical points is incompatible with breeding for mental qualities..."


I think this sounds like an excuse to breed an ugly dog! 

My Sabrina is a cute, stylish, typey breed Champion yet she got her Open Obedience title with all 1st place finishes (scores in the mid 190s). Given her work ethic, I truly believe that she would have been an OTCH dog if she had lived with someone else.

You have to balance the whole picture... don't breed an ugly, poorly put together dog just because they have a UD and don't breed a psycho, nut job just because they have a pretty head.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think what the author is saying is that you can't have it all. You have to give up a quality in something in order to have what's most important to you. Being that there is no perfect dog out there no matter how hard people try to make one.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I disagree w/ it completely. They aren't "incompatable." I've met show dogs that have good temperments. It may be harder to produce the total package, but who said breeding is supposed to be easy? Conformation isn't just about pretty show dogs, it's about preserving the breed. And a poorly put together dog w/ bad movement is probably more likely to have orthepedic problems. Honestly that sounds like a statement made by someone who is making excuses for not showing themselves or is alltogether anti-breeding/anti-purebred.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

Did you get it from this? URL http://www.poodlehistory.org/PSHOW.HTM
"For a coherent (very rare: many otherwise lucid people are rendered incohate by the subject!) criticism of breeding dogs "for" conformation exhibition, see: Konrad Lorenz, Man Meets Dog (NY: Kodansha, 1994; first published in German in 1953, first American edition 1955), ch. 9, pp. 92-98, "An Appeal to Dog Breeders" which develops the thesis that it "is a sad but undeniable fact that breeding to a strict standard of physical points is incompatible with breeding for mental qualities..." After dryly observing that he doesn't know a single intellectual man who looks like Adonis, the author states that it is possible for breeders to compromise in choice of physical and mental properties, but conformation competition inevitably involves the danger of exaggeration "of all those points which characterize a breed...." a statement with which Poodle-fanciers must fervently agree. While you have this wonderful book in your hands, see pp. 141-3 for references to the Poodle, "rightly famed for his sagacity" and "extraordinary 'humanness.'"


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

As it states in Breed type "Unfortunately, type and (especially) style are vulnerable to fashion." Take a look at the poodle on the front cover of Poodle Variety's Stud issue. It has NO front!!! This is a very unstructurely sound dog, it would have problems with weaving polls because it has no chest.
Also stated in this article; "...these days, many Poodles which are successful in the breed ring do not adhere to the breed standard in a matter essential to soundness: they are "too straight in front"; judges' eyes have become so acclimatized to this great fault that it has become part of the style they're looking for." This is a shame that we have made an unstructurely sound dog just to get the "poodle-ly" quality.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I got it from here. http://www.stonedance.ca/images/Showdogs-.pdf

I felt like this was a well thought out informative article. That part just stood out to me and I wanted to see what others thought about it.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I have to say that it is possible absolutely  !!!

I have met Ch poodles that were "complete package" 100 % !!!! And I think that they were than even superior in temperament to a "regular great temperament poodle" since their life was not actually easy - show dogs have to put up with a LOT on the road and during endless grooming sessions and also sometimes living with handlers and sometime different handlers and so on. 

When I see retired Ch with fantastic temperament I have than special admiration for that dog !!!

Unfortunately - some breeders really do get "star-struck" and put temperament in the second plane, BUT, it always hunts them back at the end and they HAVE to take care of it or they would end up with pretty dog that is impossible to show due to major temperamental flows !!!! There is nothing worse for a breeder than investing huge amount of money into a puppy that acts crazy in the ring :fish: or is terribly shy or aggressive , and than even if finished nobody wants to breed to that dog ! 

So, at the end, it does balance itself out , I think....

I can speak only from my personal experience, of course ...


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## Moxie (Jan 25, 2010)

*Temerament*



*tina* said:


> I think if the dog is of sound body they are more likely to be of sound mind. Of course, I've never bred dogs, and probably never plan on it, but isn't temperament/mental quality just as important in the standard as the physical aspect?


YES!!I feel personally temperament is one of the MOST important,along with Health and Conformation. What good is the most beautiful correct dog in the world when it is a nightmare to live with. All 3 components go together,for when you loose one you loose the soundness of your dog. Moxie


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

thestars said:


> As it states in Breed type "Unfortunately, type and (especially) style are vulnerable to fashion." Take a look at the poodle on the front cover of Poodle Variety's Stud issue. It has NO front!!! This is a very unstructurely sound dog, it would have problems with weaving polls because it has no chest.
> Also stated in this article; "...these days, many Poodles which are successful in the breed ring do not adhere to the breed standard in a matter essential to soundness: they are "too straight in front"; judges' eyes have become so acclimatized to this great fault that it has become part of the style they're looking for." This is a shame that we have made an unstructurely sound dog just to get the "poodle-ly" quality.


I agree 100 % stars. Show folks do follow trends they tend to breed to what is "Winning", which is a shame it truly is.. I try to breed for the total dog Health, Temperment conformation and color in that order.... As most dogs DO go into pet homes and very few are being shown, this is just the law of averages... Health Temperment and are of the utmost importance and breeding sound dogs is a given....So stars is correct when the ring is full of incorrect dogs and the judges are NOT breeder judges and have no idea what they are looking at. So they put up who is behind the lead .. IMHO.. That is


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> I agree 100 % stars. Show folks do follow trends they tend to breed to what is "Winning", which is a shame it truly is.. I try to breed for the total dog Health, Temperment conformation and color in that order.... As most dogs DO go into pet homes and very few are being shown, this is just the law of averages... Health Temperment and are of the utmost importance and breeding sound dogs is a given....So stars is correct when the ring is full of incorrect dogs and the judges are NOT breeder judges and have no idea what they are looking at. So they put up who is behind the lead .. IMHO.. That is


The truly bad part of it all is that they win because the judges follow trends. So if it's the trend to have the perfect head and crappy front, that's what the breeders will follow to win. Some where along the way it became about winning instead of having a quality working poodle.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> The truly bad part of it all is that they win because the judges follow trends. So if it's the trend to have the perfect head and crappy front, that's what the breeders will follow to win. Some where along the way it became about winning instead of having a quality working poodle.


Absolutely. And so it goes. Someone that knows structure and the correct conformation of a dog is who you want to mentor with Kpoos...
I personally saw the Irish Setter undergo a transformation right before my eyes , Ending up with with a very long giraffe neck and over extended (angulated if you will ) rear. the irish setter now has cottony coat with a silvery head and has to be hand stripped much like a cocker spaniel... All due to a trend. They have lost sight of a very important thing. The hunting dog aspect. Are we doing the same in poodles? I personally like a solid dog with no extremes.. So I guess that I am an exception to that rule... I like a good solid working dog that can go all day, and do what it was bred to do .. I liked it in Setters and would not compromise , and I like it in poodles and as before I will not compromise...


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Absolutely. And so it goes. Someone that knows structure and the correct conformation of a dog is who you want to mentor with Kpoos...
> I personally saw the Irish Setter undergo a transformation right before my eyes , Ending up with with a very long giraffe neck and over extended (angulated if you will ) rear. the irish setter now has cottony coat with a silvery head and has to be hand stripped much like a cocker spaniel... All due to a trend. They have lost sight of a very important thing. The hunting dog aspect. Are we doing the same in poodles? I personally like a solid dog with no extremes.. So I guess that I am an exception to that rule... I like a good solid working dog that can go all day, and do what it was bred to do .. I liked it in Setters and would not compromise , and I like it in poodles and as before I will not compromise...


Well, for one thing a poodle would sink like a weight to the bottom of a lake if it went into water in show coat. That hair would weigh it down and it wouldn't be able to swim. If you've read that article that Roxy posted about poodles' structure in agility (it basically compares to a border collie's structure) you can see that the dog that would be best in the show ring in a pretty coat is the worst dog for the agility ring and if I can remember correctly, it couldn't even swim. The dog that looks like it wouldn't win squat in a conformation ring is as fast and agile as the border collie in agility. The ideal is the overall dog but I am not sure that's always what's important to everyone. I can't lump everyone in the same catagory because some really do want that but often times it's about winning so breeds are changed so drastically for that. The border collie is a good example.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Well, us humans, and what WE find appealing or attractive can screw things up really bad. If you watch that BBC show about UKKC breed standards and what it is doing to breeds, it is so clear that WE are monkeying around making the breeds what WE want them to be, not taking into mind what it may do the the dogs over time. GSDs tend to walk to their pasterns rather than their feet, their skeleton is so different that now it has that stretched out look like you see when they are stacked in the ring. Short nosed breeds like Pugs and Bostons have many more breathing disorders than they used to. The photos they show in the series of dogs from the 1930`s, who were meeting the breed standarrds then, do not look at all like their successors. Almost every litter of Bulldogs has to be whelped by caesarean section and that was not always the case because their look has been altered and their heads are too big for their mothers to birth them freely.. They have been breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels for narrower skulls, and now they have an inherent disorder in some bloodlines where the brain is too large for the skulls, causing agony and repeptitive behaviours like running in circles or chewing their feet incessantly. This is all the fault of human beings and what they want to see these breeds look like. In the United Kingdom, the experts are saying if the kennel club and breed clubs don`t change the breed standards, purebred dogs aare going to become extinct. I think it is a pity and crime and it is all the fault of human beings and what they perceive as appealing.

We do the same thing to human females. In the 50`s, voluptuous women were the norm....Rita Hayworth, Marilyn Monroe, Sophia Loren, Susan Hayward were all buxom and beautiful, but now if you are 5`10 and weight 130 pounds (gasp!!!) you are considered FAT!!! We have a new generation of teen and pre-teen girls with eating disorders, trying to whiddle their waistlines to meet the standards the magazines are saying is perfection in the female form.

Most of the Standard Poodles I see today don`t look a lot like the Standard Poodles of yesteryear. Their muzzles are shorter, they are broader skulled and heavier across the cheek bones. They are tiny compared to the Spoos of the 60`s AND 70`S, likely to make them more appealing to apartment dwellers and seniors, who would find the smaller size easier to handle. (There have been many posts on here from newbies whose adult Standards are about 18`inches tall). The Spoos I grew up with were about 24 inches at the shoulder and had a different loook about them.

Sorry for the tirade, but it really upsets me when I see some of this stuff. If Bulldogs were MEANT to be delivered by C-section, they would have been extinct long ago. But because medical intervention is easily accessed now, and it is what WE want, it seems its okay. GRRRRRR!!!!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Not in my yard we arent.. Pretty broad there Arreau ...So again I say someone that KNOWS structure is who you mentor with .. Period. I was lucky enough to mentor with some of the top AKC judges in the country . They taught me movement they taught me balance and structure. Learn your standard Read your standard adhere to the standard and do the right thing..


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> From *An Appeal to Dog Breeders *"is a sad but undeniable fact that
> breeding to a strict standard of physical points is incompatible with breeding for mental qualities..."


All in one or nothing ..


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I watched that show Arreau and I completely agree and I've been studying dogs and dog shows for years. I know what the human definition of "pretty" is doing to dogs. People go with trend and what will sell to the pet owner because it is a game of winning instead of a game of improving the breed. I'm generalizing understand, I don't maintain that all breeders are grown from the same seed but there are many out there that want to win and will change dogs to fit their idea of beautiful. I find the EBD ugly with it's huge head but that's just me. 

Standards are written by breed clubs. They are often changed by politics and people that get a wild hair up their ass because someone or a bunch of someone's lobbied to get it changed so that their particular dog/s could win. What happened to partis in the breed standard? I mean what year did they get written out because there were parti poodles dating far back into poodle history.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Not in my yard we arent.. Pretty broad there Arreau ...So again I say someone that KNOWS structure is who you mentor with .. Period. I was lucky enough to mentor with some of the top AKC judges in the country . They taught me movement they taught me balance and structure. Learn your standard Read your standard adhere to the standard and do the right thing..


I did not imply or mean you as a breeder, or me as a breeder. The human race, in general, just never seems to be satisfied to leave well enough alone. Things change because enough human beings ask for change. And a lot of the time it is NOT change for the better.

When I was a kid, a Standard Poodle would have been considered a large sized breed of dog. Nowadays, some of the daintier Standards would be considered a medium sized breed. No offence and no generalization meant.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I did not imply or mean you as a breeder, or me as a breeder. The human race, in general, just never seems to be satisfied to leave well enough alone. Things change because enough human beings ask for change. And a lot of the time it is NOT change for the better.
> 
> When I was a kid, a Standard Poodle would have been considered a large sized breed of dog. Nowadays, some of the daintier Standards would be considered a medium sized breed. No offence and no generalization meant.


hwell:Must have been a misunderstanding I missed....But you are right in several points you make - vanity is all the rave (not that I dont have some flaws there), and completely misses the vital and detramental points, especially in regards to health, sound body amd mind.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Olie said:


> hwell:Must have been a misunderstanding I missed....But you are right in several points you make - vanity is all the rave (not that I dont have some flaws there), and completely misses the vital and detramental points, especially in regards to health, sound body amd mind.


I feel sorry for the girls that grow up in today's society. There is so much pressure to look a certain way. I'm 5'6" and I weigh 130 pounds and I'm proud of that. I have been 118 pounds and boy I was like stick thin and I basically ate nothing but I had a lot of stress in my life at the time. I'd have to intentionally do that again (like eat once a day and basically lettuce) to get there. I see people put down beautiful people because of a little fat or a little imperfection here or there. It's sad because the person is gorgeous but they feel so much pressure because in the minds of others they need to fix it in order to be perfect. Perfection is what people are striving for so I guess everyone is going to look the same at some point.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

KPoos said:


> I feel sorry for the girls that grow up in today's society. There is so much pressure to look a certain way. I'm 5'6" and I weigh 130 pounds and I'm proud of that. I have been 118 pounds and boy I was like stick thin and I basically ate nothing but I had a lot of stress in my life at the time. I'd have to intentionally do that again (like eat once a day and basically lettuce) to get there. I see people put down beautiful people because of a little fat or a little imperfection here or there. It's sad because the person is gorgeous but they feel so much pressure because in the minds of others they need to fix it in order to be perfect. Perfection is what people are striving for so I guess everyone is going to look the same at some point.


My daughter has a neighbour whose ten year old daughter who is watching what she eat ànd is pale and drawn, because of pressure to be what the general public considers perfect. TEN YEARS OLD!!! That is the kind of thing I am talking about. I had enough trouble getting my kids grown up, raising them from 1979 until now. I would be terrified now.


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## Moxie (Jan 25, 2010)

KPoos said:


> I watched that show Arreau and I completely agree and I've been studying dogs and dog shows for years. I know what the human definition of "pretty" is doing to dogs. People go with trend and what will sell to the pet owner because it is a game of winning instead of a game of improving the breed. I'm generalizing understand, I don't maintain that all breeders are grown from the same seed but there are many out there that want to win and will change dogs to fit their idea of beautiful. I find the EBD ugly with it's huge head but that's just me.
> 
> Standards are written by breed clubs. They are often changed by politics and people that get a wild hair up their ass because someone or a bunch of someone's lobbied to get it changed so that their particular dog/s could win. What happened to partis in the breed standard? I mean what year did they get written out because there were parti poodles dating far back into poodle history.


AMEN!!! and why should we discriminate these BEAUTIFUL POODLES just because of COLOR,STUPID! :doh:


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Moxie said:


> AMEN!!! and why should we discriminate these BEAUTIFUL POODLES just because of COLOR,STUPID! :doh:


I've always agreed that partis need their own class in conformation. They occur naturally but are culled like they aren't exceptional. If they were given a class in AKC they would begin to look better because it wouldn't be so taboo to breed them.


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## Moxie (Jan 25, 2010)

KPoos said:


> I've always agreed that partis need their own class in conformation. They occur naturally but are culled like they aren't exceptional. If they were given a class in AKC they would begin to look better because it wouldn't be so taboo to breed them.


I agree,and UKC has made big strides for us by allowing us to show them now.
I will look forward to the day and hope I am alive to see them BACK in the AKC ring and will enjoy the faces as the jaws drop!!LOL:clap2:


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## Mercury's Mom (Dec 6, 2009)

I for one don't care for the dainty small standards and even less for a LOT of the toys Ive seen. It seems like with a lot of toys are bred for size and those bug eyes and cobby bodies don't matter as long as they fit in size xs clothes and cute purses. Aren't toys supposed to be built like standards, only smaller? Certainly not all toy breeders care more about size than type, but since there are SO many byb and mills out there that owners don't know what a true toy is supposed to look like.

Most spoos around here are short and tend to have tiny bones and fly away ears. My old spoo was close to 28in and built very sturdy so everyone thought he was a Royal (no such thing). I don't know how big my boys are going to be, but their parents were aprox 50lbs. Jupiter does have the build of those dainty spoos, which my daughter loves, but Mercury has a nice head, chest, and sturdy bones. He is quite a bit taller than Jupiter as well. Only time will tell. Dainty spoos can be beautiful, but spoos are retreavers and I imagine those thin pasterns would snap under the pressure.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

They call those dainty spoos "refined."


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Well...I have seen refined females in the bigger variety. Just because they are larger doesn't make them unfeminine and coarse. I know what you mean though.


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## piemama (Jan 19, 2010)

*Questions from newbie*

oops...


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## Mercury's Mom (Dec 6, 2009)

My daughter, who is 11, loves the fact that Jupiter is more "refined" than his brother. She says he looks like a fairy dog, lol, and is planning to get him some butterfly wings for halloween. He has a much lighter bone structure than I prefer in a spoo, I think his face is way to thin and he a weak chin, but he is such a pretty boy and has such a happy bubbly temperment that he makes my daugher a great best friend. 

Mercury is more what I look for in a spoo, although I know little about the standard really. He has a more athletic build, nice chest and is bigger boned, not to mention gorgeous eyes and eyelashes that go on forever. He looks like he will be able to go hiking, with ne with out my worrying, when he's older and keep up with me in general. Not that Jupiter won't be able to, but Ill feel more comfidant in Merc's structural soundness. Plus, he
looks like a king

I guess different people want and expect different things out of their poodles. My daugter wants a pretty and fun friend who she can doll up and I want more of an athlete with regal beauty.


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