# service dogs--preventing panic attacks?



## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Sent you a PM.


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

There is no required certification in the US. Anyone trying to certify or register you dog is selling you a scam.
Remember, the panic attacks must be disabling for that task to count as a service dog task.
I would recommend going to Psychiatric Service Dog Society and joining their list. They are by far the most knowledgeable about psychiatric service dogs.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

what karma said. and know the ada laws. you can't be discriminated nor disclose your disabilitiy.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

No dog can help with panic attacks.
If they help then you are using the dogs as a crutch.

Panic attacks must be faced full on by yourself to get better.


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

Winnow, what you just said was disgusting. NO service dog is a crutch. More often than not ANY illness isn't just about"facing it by yourself to get better." That is just crap people who don't understand the illness say.
Yes, mental illness can be disabling and no, it isn't just a matter of "being weak" or "sucking it up" or "wanting attention." Service dogs do, in fact, help those with disabling mental illness live normal lives and sometimes, live period.
Let me guess...you also think people with pain diseases should just suck it up and push on, right?


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

While I think Winnow's wording is harsh, I do not think she is speaking out of ignorance.
http://www.poodleforum.com/7-general-off-topic-chat/7339-anxiety-issues-dog-oweners.html


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

Honestly, if she says service dogs are a crutch, even if she has an anxiety disorder, she is speaking out of ignorance. Just because she doesn't need a service dog to live a normal life doesn't mean others don't and saying otherwise is silly.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

I agree with you, just wanted to point that out.

I'm a bit on the fence with the use of service dogs for mental illness. I think there needs to be a certification test to deem the dog suitable for service. While I know there are already so many barriers faced by people with disabilities and mental illness, there are some people who use dogs that are NOT suitable to be in public, and pose dangers for other service dog teams. In my experience, dogs that are trained to do tasks such as lead, alert or pick up dropped items, etc. are much better behaved and pose no public threat than those service animals that are not trained to do specific tasks and are mostly/only used for calming/comfort.


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

There are some things in place that do require a doctor's note to get an accomodation (for flying and getting in to no pet housing).
There are laws in place to punish those who bring their dog in public and aren't disabled but they aren't enforced.
Store owners also have rights in the ADA. They can have a service dog removed if it is misbehaving.
The people who are bringing their dogs in public just because they make them feel better are breaking the law. Those dogs are calledEmotional Support Animals and only have rights under the Fair Housing Act and the Air Carrier Accessibility Act.
True psychiatric service dogs are trained to do tasks like grounding, alerting to a panic attack, guiding a person to a bench or other safe place, etc.
The problem with certification is that it is expensive and hard to enact. Every evaluator would have to be trained, transportation would have to be provided for those who can't dirive or are too far away, a test would have to be set up that was fair to everyone (for example, it is unethical to set off a medical problem to see the dog respond). And people would still fake it and make an id illegally.
I think what really need to be done is better education and current penalties enforced. Most people don't understand the ADA as it pertains to service animals.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Karma'sACat said:


> Honestly, if she says service dogs are a crutch, even if she has an anxiety disorder, she is speaking out of ignorance. Just because she doesn't need a service dog to live a normal life doesn't mean others don't and saying otherwise is silly.


I dont thinks service dogs are crutches but I do know that they would be a crutch for a person with panic attacks.

I am someone who knows panic and anxiety very well, too well in my opinion.
But panic attacks is something that you can cure, not saying it is easy. The key point in getting better is doing it by yourself.

Panic plays tricks on your mind making you think that you are in real danger when you are not. One of the fist things a doc will tell you if your are trying to get ride of panic attacks is loose the crutches whatever they may be. For me my crutch was always having my mobile phone with me or having something to drink in case I felt like chocking.

I had to start by getting ride of these things to be able to get better.

Now 3 years later I would say I am very good, not taking any meds I can leave my cell phone at home and I am able to mange the attacks I get.

So the idea of a panic attack dog is not working, I am sorry but it just does not work that way.

I know the truth can be harsh or disgusting but it is the truth.

I am not trying to be mean I am just trying to tell you how this disease works.
And I am not getting my knowledge from the Internet I have spoken to countless people who work with Panic attacks about this and how you can get better.

And Karma'sACat I was maybe harsh but I think you where just plain rude to me.


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## jazzi480 (Sep 19, 2010)

As a flight Attendant, IMO there is a huge difference between true service dogs and comfort animals. In this era of being politically correct the two have become confused. I am forced to put up with spoiled, pampered pets and thier owners, who have gotten a DR to fill out paperwork so they can keep FiFi loose on an aircraft. If we question the paperwork, passenger screams ADA and Discrimination! 
I agree with Karma laws and rules need to be enforced. But they also need to be clarified. 
We have a program at work called puppies in flight, where Flight Attendant foster service puppies and take them on flights to help train them in airports and aircrafts. I love to see these puppies, and give great credit to the volunteers who give up thier days off and personal time to do this. 
True service dogs are trained and certified.


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

I was being honest,not rude.
And my knowledge comes from people who utilize psychiatric service dogs, on of them for disabling anxiety and psychiatrists who believe psychiatric service dogs are a beneficial part of a qualified individuals tretmen plan, not the internet.
Like I said before, this may be the case for you and those you know, it isn't for everyone else. Just like there are people in my illness who aren't as sick as I am and don't think people with CRPS need service dogs, so it goes for anxiety and service dogs to assist with that. It is silly to think that what worked for you will work for everyone else that has the same illness as you. And that goes for ANY illness, not just panic attacks.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

jazzi480 said:


> As a flight Attendant, IMO there is a huge difference between true service dogs and comfort animals. In this era of being politically correct the two have become confused. I am forced to put up with spoiled, pampered pets and thier owners, who have gotten a DR to fill out paperwork so they can keep FiFi loose on an aircraft. If we question the paperwork, passenger screams ADA and Discrimination!
> I agree with Karma laws and rules need to be enforced. But they also need to be clarified.


Yes, very much agreed. Recently there were talks about giving public access rights to therapy dogs or dogs with CGC title....imagine all the added complications that would create!!




> True service dogs are trained and certified.


I disagree. There are many self-trained service dog teams that do an excellent job. I think certification is important and makes it easier for the service dog team when out in public, but I do not think it defines a "true" service dog.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm an administrative assistant for the ND Protection & Advocacy Project (an independent state agency which advocates for the rights of people with disabilities) Our advocates get calls occasionally from people who feel their rights are being violated in regard to service animals.

I'm trying to learn to differentiate between "service" and "therapy" animal definitions. Please correct me if my interpretation is wrong - but I believe "service" animals have been trained to perform a specific task or tasks to assist a person who has a physical or mental disability. A "therapy" animal would be an animal that makes the person feel better - calmer, more in control, etc., but hasn't necessarily been trained to do anything specific for that person. 

When I was in Rapid City a couple of weeks ago, there were nothing but purebred dogs everywhere you looked - Rapid City Kennel Club had decided not to allow mixed breed dogs into their performance competitions, so the only dogs on site were conformation competitors or purebred performance dogs. So, imagine my surprise when a man came walking down the hallway at the civic center with a 4 month old labra (or golden) doodle puppy wearing a vest that said "Service Dog" We conversed with the man several times over the weekend and in my non-professional opinion, I'd guess he was a man with some mental illness and his puppy was his "therapy" pet, but since he had the "Service Dog" vest on, no one questioned him.

The pup was relatively well behaved (except for the time he pooped and then immediately peed inside the civic center - the man appeared very upset that the pup did this, but I reminded him the puppy was still quite young and they were a long way from any exit - the pup had to GOOOO!) and he didn't cause any problems or stirs with any of the people who were there to show (at least no problems that I witnessed...)

IMO, however, a 4 month old ANYTHING is not qualified to be a true "service dog". Several years of intense and specified training is (to me) what separates the "service" dogs from the "therapy" pets... In my work (and in my own personal experiences) I do believe that pets can help people live happier, healthier lives - I have no beef with therapy pets (I have many of my own at home!! :lol but I don't believe a therapy pet should be portrayed as a service dog, as it skews the public's opinion of what a true service dog's role is in his owner's life.

Barb


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Karma'sACat said:


> It is silly to think that what worked for you will work for everyone else that has the same illness as you. And that goes for ANY illness, not just panic attacks.


I would say that I had disabling panic attacks but that does not say that I could not get better.

I got better with Behaviour therapy and Cognitive therapy. People with panic attacks have to be ready too get help some are not ready and just keep on having the panic attacks.
But everyone is able to get better.

Its very hard to get better because to be able to get better you have to face your panic and that is no easy and you have to keep on working with yourself to prevent future panic attacks once you do get better.
And it is very common for people with panic attacks to get a lot worse during treatment. Thats why so many people stop treatment and give up.

And yes you are being rude to me you don't know me but keep making assumptions about me as person.
You have no idea what I have been through and how I feel about mental illnesses or any other disease for that matter.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

As a person who suffers greatly from panic disorder, I understand both Winnow and Karmacat. As Winnow said, there are things that make you feel secure and safe, hers being a cell phone and something to drink. For me, I am always somewhat better if I am with a loved one who UNDERSTANDS, doesn't just KNOW, what I am going through, and that I can be fine one minute and fleeing a store the next. Having a dog with me would bring me an immense amount of comfort and a level of security. I would consider this dog a crutch, but definately a crutch I would welcome. But, again, as Winnow said, having this dog with me would in no way be helping me get better, or recover from panic disorder. It would only be helping me at the time. But, it would certainly be comforting. I agree too that the only way you can recover from these types of mental illnesses is to face them head on. I have been making inroads after twelve years of working through it without meds. Full recovery may never happen, but at least now I can go to a dog show periodically without running out of the building, or shopping at Walmart, on a bright, sunny day without thinking I will faint or have a heart attack.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> As a person who suffers greatly from panic disorder, I understand both Winnow and Karmacat. As Winnow said, there are things that make you feel secure and safe, hers being a cell phone and something to drink. For me, I am always somewhat better if I am with a loved one who UNDERSTANDS, doesn't just KNOW, what I am going through, and that I can be fine one minute and fleeing a store the next. Having a dog with me would bring me an immense amount of comfort and a level of security. I would consider this dog a crutch, but definately a crutch I would welcome. But, again, as Winnow said, having this dog with me would in no way be helping me get better, or recover from panic disorder. It would only be helping me at the time. But, it would certainly be comforting. I agree too that the only way you can recover from these types of mental illnesses is to face them head on. I have been making inroads after twelve years of working through it without meds. Full recovery may never happen, but at least now I can go to a dog show periodically without running out of the building, or shopping at Walmart, on a bright, sunny day without thinking I will faint or have a heart attack.


Well said arreau...
Keep up the good work


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

I've spent the whole day at the hospital for pre-op and I don't have the energy to keep going in circles. We will have to agree to disagree. You will never convince me that any type of service dog is a crutch and you will never believe otherwise.


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## fracturedcircle (Aug 19, 2010)

Karma'sACat said:


> I've spent the whole day at the hospital for pre-op and I don't have the energy to keep going in circles. We will have to agree to disagree. You will never convince me that any type of service dog is a crutch and you will never believe otherwise.


I suggest you refrain from expressing your ableist views in the thread whose OP is quadriplegic. that is just insulting.

I am asking the moderator to freeze or remove this thread entirely. if you want to keep fighting for your ableist views, I insist you do it in your own thread. my life is difficult enough without this.


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## Oodlejpoodle's mom (Sep 11, 2009)

I am asking the moderator to freeze or remove this thread entirely. if you want to keep fighting for your ableist views, I insist you do it in your own thread. my life is difficult enough without this.[/QUOTE]

Hey Fractured, Karma is also in a wheelchair (so much for ableist views) and having surgery...lighten up. I am truly sorry your life is difficult but I think we all have difficulties in one way or another! Other members do have panic attacks and should be allowed their opinion. I think everyone is just a little on edge, they meant you no disrespect and certainly are not making your life more difficult.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I have read about dogs that can "sense" different medical episodes in their human owners. I think in the cases I have read or seen on TV its not a trained "job". 

Panic attacks apparently evoke lots of difference of opinions - its a shame anyone got offended really - but should try to understand each other and talk through it. Winnow was forward NOT rude IMO. I tend to somewhat agree with her I guess because I did not interpret her comment "crutch" the same way. 

What would be the expectation of the dog? Could there possibly be a service dog in a certain working area that could assist - say after the attack?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm confused...I don't even understand why fracturedcircle was offended by Karma'sACat. Fracturedcircle inquired about dogs becoming service animals for panic attacks and Karma'sACat seems to agree that they can and should be able to. What's the problem exactly??????? Maybe I am missing something....


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I'm confused...I don't even understand why fracturedcircle was offended by Karma'sACat. Fracturedcircle inquired about dogs becoming service animals for panic attacks and Karma'sACat seems to agree that they can and should be able to. What's the problem exactly??????? Maybe I am missing something....


maybe shes offended by the way Karma responded to what Disa said?

how would the service/therapy dog differentiate between a heart attack and a panic attack?
the standard panic attack symptoms mimic that of a heart attack
I'd be interested in what training would be required to help show the dog THIS is a panic attack be comforting, THIS is a heart attack assist me to the phone
would a dog be able to tell the difference?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

This is very sensitive topic and as such should be handled with care and respect to all involved. :grouphug:

When people are not feeling well and are dealing with physical or emotional pain on a daily bases , it is sometimes hard to go through simpliest motions of everyday life. 

We all find our own way of how to deal with obstacles and NO way is better or worse - it is all individual and so much personal in this instance, that arguing would bring only pain and tears to anybody who feels hurt for objective or subjective reasons.

I really would like to see that all who suffer show compassion and understanding to each other since outside world so seldomly does , unfortunately : (((.

There is no single way of how somebody can get well and sometimes - not getting well is a permanent state : (((((. Not everybody is "curable" from any condition - some people get well, some partially, some just never do : (((.

Lets please be tolerant of each others views regarding this topic - lest concentrate on the way of how dogs CAN get certificate in those not "cookie-cutter" cases. :frown: and let everybody with disability of any kind find their own path of healing. 

Peace to all eace2:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

^ Like!


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

To answer the Keith - yes, dogs are able to detect the smallest changes and would be able to detect "emotional" change and distinguish it from "physical" one.

Some dogs can "detect" the cancer, BTW and dogs can predict epileptic attack without a single miss, for example. 

Dogs can predict coming of an asthma attack (we have a story of that at out forum) and many more things that are still unexplainable by science, but are factual.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> To answer *the Keith* .


I like that, THE Keith
XD
I should get that as my personalized license plate instead of Poodle XD
<3

I think thats fascinating, 
I'm truly interested though in the training that would be involved for the dog to detect the minute change between a panic attack and a heart attack

because when monitored (brain activity, heart rhythm, and there's a few other key things I'm not remembering) during a panic attack it matches almost exactly the results obtained during a heart attack

like I said, fascinating 
but far beyond my level of comprehension XD


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

The Keith,

When somebody speaks couple of languages, than "articles" and "spelling" easily do get mixed sometimes, but to come back to the point - those two mentioned conditions can look the same "on the paper" or an "image" but are VERY different on the biochemical level as well as on "electromagnetic field" level. 

The newest research suggests that dogs can actually detect those fine "chemical" changes in our perspiration or even breath and notice "warning signs" long before any actual events take place. 

Most dogs are not "trained" to do so - they just do it "instinctively". Some go through training by working with specific patient cohort and training is not directed toward "teaching them to detect" but of how to give appropriate signals to the patient when attack is eminent.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

what I was trying to say is that you can have a dog to help you get you through the panic attacks but that would in now way help you get better in the long run.

You would never feel like you beaten the panic by yourself. But you would feel like you had beaten the panic attack with your dog.

People need to know that panic attacks are not dangerous and if you get a panic attack and just sit there and do nothing it will go away.
So the sooner your brain figures out that you are not going to die and that you don't need to take any action to feel better you will have a much higher success rate of getting over the panic all together.

The dog would only keep you sick longer and would in the end cause more panic because then you would start getting panic attacks when the dog was not around.

People who are also dealing with other illnesses tend to have more anxiety and its harder to get better when your body is not running like it should. 
But it is possible, it just takes a lot of hard work..
And you get worse before you get better..


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Winnow, I assume then that you do not believe in medication for panic/anxiety disorders either? I suppose that could be considered a crutch as well...But sometimes, for some people, medication or perhaps a service dog, or even a therapy dog, is what a person needs to improve the quality of their life. If someone is suffering, there is no reason they should turn down medication or a dog to comfort them just because they wouldn't be overcoming it on their own. Medication, or a service dog, or a therapy dog does not have to be a permanent crutch. Perhaps these can be used as a transitional step to healing. Winnow, just because you _yourself_ would not want to rely on a service dog to help you heal does not mean that it would be a crutch for other people. It does not mean that another person would fail to "overcome" their panic disorder. Everyone deserves a chance at happiness and if a service dog is the only way you can be free of panic attacks, then I would hope with all of my heart that that person would utilize a service dog.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Winnow said:


> The dog would only keep you sick longer and would in the end cause more panic because then you would start getting panic attacks when the dog was not around.


I agree.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree too. This is precisely why I do not take meds. I feel once I start, I would need to be on them the rest of my life for the "Band-aid" effect.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

However, there are some people who do not have the strength that Arreau and Winnow have to choose not to take medicine. Or choose not to have a service dog. You should be thankful that you are strong enough to make that decision. But, for some people relying on medication or a service dog, or a therapy dog is their only way. Should they really be chastised for something they cannot control?

I do not have any of these disorders, but I do know several people who suffer from serious psychological illness including anxiety, depression and panic disorder. If having a service dog or a therapy dog, depending on their needs, would improve their quality of life and help them overcome such a debilitating disease, why should that be looked down upon? Would it be better for them to suffer?


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

It's incredibly humbling to hear about the challenges some of you face. Life unfolds as it does and it dishes out big portions of sorrows and difficulties and you don't know when or who might be served them. We all hope it won't be "us," but you never know. Things can change an instant. I watch what some people endure and survive and I marvel at them. Pain, sadness, uncertainty, loss; the downside of the human condition swirls around us all. The only antidote I know to this is kindness. I think the most important thing one person can do for another is to allow for their feelings and opinions with tolerance. It's understandable that people feel passionate about things, but it's more important I think to be compassionate. I'm just saying...I also want to say I wish any of you who are suffering relief from your pain, the comfort of caring others and hope. If I could take your troubles away, they'd already be gone.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> However, there are some people who do not have the strength that Arreau and Winnow have to choose not to take medicine. Or choose not to have a service dog. You should be thankful that you are strong enough to make that decision. But, for some people relying on medication or a service dog, or a therapy dog is their only way. Should they really be chastised for something they cannot control?
> 
> I do not have any of these disorders, but I do know several people who suffer from serious psychological illness including anxiety, depression and panic disorder. If having a service dog or a therapy dog, depending on their needs, would improve their quality of life and help them overcome such a debilitating disease, why should that be looked down upon? Would it be better for them to suffer?


Nobody is chastising them. My opinion is if it helps someone, they should go for it. But they should not think that because it is making them feel better that they are better. If it will help their quality of life and make it so they are able to do things, then by all means...how can that be a bad thing? I do not think they are being chastised or looked down upon. But being a sufferer, I know while it would bring me comfort, it is not really helping me get better, but may certainly help me live a better life while I work toward being cured.


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## Jessie's Mom (Mar 23, 2010)

when a person is having a panic attack, it is a common reaction to look for a "safe person" a "safe place" so that the panic attack goes away. i think everyone here has made some very important points. some are for meds, others not. i for one, never took meds for my disorder - personal choice. my mom has suffered from depression since 2002 because of an eye condition that is robbing her of her sight. she is on meds. they help her cope. sometimes i wish i could take something light just to help me through - but i can't because part of my disorder is a fear of the meds. see, i not only have panic disorder, i have phobias.

my jessie calms me. when i lie in bed at night and i feel a panic attack coming in, i hold her paw, or her tail, or just rest my hand on her and that calms me because it helps me to focus on reality and not on this chemical surge going on in my body. so in this case, she wasn't a crutch (really don't like this word), but she is definitely a help. however, when i decide to walk the 2 miles to my job because the mentally healthy me wants the physical benefits of it and then mentally unhealthy me panics a mile into the walk, there is only me and i have to help bring myself to center and focus on the here and now and tell myself it is only a chemical thing, there is nothing wrong with me and this will pass. and it does, always does, no matter how intense. and i feel good that i got through it alone and that builds my confidence that i could do it.

plumcrazy: you described the difference between service and therapy dogs very clearly. i know a young girl who has colon cancer and has a service dog (a pomeranian) who know when she hasn't taken a particular medication - all the meds are in color coded containers. that is a trained service dog. what most of us get from our pets is peace, calm, help to center ourselves. does that make them therapy dogs? probably not - but it does make them indispensable to us.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I find this article very informative 

http://www.iaadp.org/psd_tasks.html

It explains in what way "comfort dog" can become a "service dog" to persons with psychological disorders.

Every person is different and there is never one way to get better - not with ANY condition , physical of psychological,it is just a medical fact. Even the simplest infection will in one person cause sore throat and in another permanent heart damage - will they be treated the same way ? Of course not. 

There is never "one size fits all" when human body is in question , otherwise we would have cures for everything long time ago. Actually most medical conditions are caused by multiple factors and most have to be treated same way - with multifaceted approach. From diabetes and cardiovascular diseases to eczema to depression !

It all comes down to QUALITY of life and if somebody needs medication and service dog or any other help to function normally and nothing else helps, I really do not see why anybody would argue about "necessity" of it. 

Some people just can NOT get better - even with medication, therapy and every possible medical care and to put additional pressure on them to "just snap out of it" can cause even more damage. Those patients inevitably feel completely alone in their pain and not understood and/or accepted and many commit a suicide : ((((((((((. 

It is very interesting phenomenon actually and well researched- the fact that patients that can not get well (even cancer patients) often get "lectured" by people around them of how to behave and what to do or not do. Relatives and friends and survivors have hard time accepting the mortality of a given patient as well as facing their own , so by projecting a "blame" on the sick they "protect" their "selves" from facing their own fears. 

My personal motto is "live and let live" and I would never in my wildest dreams tell anybody "how to live better way" or "how to heal" - it is all so individual and subjective in so many ways and on so many levels, almost *very* intimate thing ...


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

well honestly you're all blowing what Disa said COMPLETELY out of proportion
because her view on ONE diagnosis/disorder/disease out of hundreds of thousands is what it is you're comparing the differences of things that matter not to what she said...

She DID NOT say that service dogs are crutches, and she never would
she DID NOT say that therapy dogs were crutches, and I doubt she ever would

and Wishpoo I wasn't making fun of your broken English...I enjoyed the "The" so I said I liked it...talk about misunderstandings lol ;D


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Great point Keith!!! I agree I think Winnow and anyone that agreed - me included are being WAY misunderstood! 

One - I agreed speaking from experience with physicians and therapist. But to imply that Winnow would expect people to suffer and agree with her completely.......there’s one thing with a healthy debate but its another to take it WAY OUT OF CONTEXT. 

As I said before, dogs help. I have called them my dog’s personal therapy - but the goal with these type disorders are working through them without meds, depending on others, not leaving the home etc. When you tend to do this as a "fix" you then develop another dependency or slang "crutch". All cases are not the same - we know this. It was one point of view and I really hate to see Winnow being treated as if she was personally attacking people when she CLEARLY was not. I guess some of us can see both sides because we have the experience with this........ That’s it. Trying to make her feel terrible is just wrong, considering she has been open with her own personal experiences. And has also been a very valued PF member. 


I think the information wishpoo provided is excellent information too...more of what the OP was asking for maybe its time to just move on. :amen:


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> well honestly you're all blowing what Disa said COMPLETELY out of proportion
> because her view on ONE diagnosis/disorder/disease out of hundreds of thousands is what it is you're comparing the differences of things that matter not to what she said...
> 
> She DID NOT say that service dogs are crutches, and she never would
> she DID NOT say that therapy dogs were crutches, and I doubt she ever would


So true keith.

I am just trying to inform people on how panic attack works. I know its not the same fore everyone but panic works almost the same in everyone just diffract things that trigger the attacks.

Think about what happens when we panic ? This is the flight or fight mode. 
We stay super alert ready to spring into action. 
Do you think that you will faint or die ? 
Well the good news is that you will not faint or die, if that would happen then the whole human kind would be extinct.

Think about the lion or tiger coming to eat our ancestors. 
Do you think they would have fainted or died ? No they ran like crazy or attacked the predator.
Thats why we are alive today 
People who have panic attacks just have over active flight or fight mode.
But instead of a real danger there is none.

Another example:
What do you do if you are afraid of dogs and want to overcome the fear ?
You go meet dogs, get to know them and find out by yourself that they don't pose any threat to you.
Its not enough that someone tells you that dogs are ok you have to see it fore yourself

ChocolateMillie when did I say that I was against medication for Panic disorder?

Don't put words in my mouth..

Panic Attacks and Panic Disorder: Symptoms, Causes, and Treatment


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Olie said:


> Great point Keith!!! I agree I think Winnow and anyone that agreed - me included are being WAY misunderstood!
> 
> One - I agreed speaking from experience with physicians and therapist. But to imply that Winnow would expect people to suffer and agree with her completely.......there’s one thing with a healthy debate but its another to take it WAY OUT OF CONTEXT.
> 
> ...


Thank you Olie.

I am not trying to cause pain I am just trying to get it straight out how panic works and that I don't think that a service dog would help a person with panic attacks in the long run.

I can see how a service dog would help a person with depression, the dog would need its walks so it would encourage the person to go out of the house and do something with the dog.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Jessie's Mom said:


> when a person is having a panic attack, it is a common reaction to look for a "safe person" a "safe place" so that the panic attack goes away. i think everyone here has made some very important points. some are for meds, others not. i for one, never took meds for my disorder - personal choice.
> 
> when i decide to walk the 2 miles to my job because the mentally healthy me wants the physical benefits of it and then mentally unhealthy me panics a mile into the walk, there is only me and i have to help bring myself to center and focus on the here and now and tell myself it is only a chemical thing, there is nothing wrong with me and this will pass. and it does, always does, no matter how intense. and i feel good that i got through it alone and that builds my confidence that i could do it.


Jessie's Mom this is exactly what I am talking about 
You are doing it all alone with out a safe place or a person and you survived.
This is a huge step for someone with panic disorder :clap2:

And you mention "safe place" or a "safe person" I think that if you had a dog he would become your "safe dog" and you don't need anything safe because there is nothing happening too you.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Winnow said:


> Jessie's Mom this is exactly what I am talking about
> You are doing it all alone with out a safe place or a person and you survived.
> This is a huge step for someone with panic disorder :clap2:
> 
> And you mention "safe place" or a "safe person" I think that if you had a dog he would become your "safe dog" and you don't need anything safe because there is nothing happening too you.


I am with you Winnow 100%. For me personally, I want to KNOW I am winning and conquering my demons. I have used loved ones in the past as my "safe" but realized I was becoming dependent on them and really was not getting better. I needed to learn that nobody can save me. No drugs, no human, no dog. They can bring me comfort, but they are not fixing anything. The ONLY thing that began to start the process of recovery was to face my demons head on. I still panic and I still run, but not being on meds helps me be entirely aware of what transpired and how I dealt with it. So now if I am out with Bruce and it is not a good day, I make an effort to wander into the next aisle at Walmart without him. Knowing what I WAS like, I feel every foot that I can pull away from him is a victory. And it feels so good to do it on my own with no help from drugs or anything else. But, I know that there are people with this who would literally hide in a corner and never move without meds. So, if meds or a dog or a loved one are what you need to give you some freedom and quality of life, then do it. But you need to know, these comforts are not going to get you over it. Only facing it and knowing, like Disa said, that you may THINK you are going to die, but won't, will eventually get the message into your head that you will survive the attack and you will begin, slowly, slowly, slowly to make progress.

My brother has been agoraphobic for thirty years. He began taking meds for it which made it so he could leave his home. But he uses substance to alter him in every situation now. If not his meds, marijuana, or both. If not those, alcohol or alcohol and his meds. I do not drink or smoke pot and there is a dreadful amount of addiciton in my family, so the thought of taking meds and maybe getting addicted just gives me one more thing to panic about. In my honest opinion, all of this is bandaids.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Winnow said:


> I dont thinks service dogs are crutches but I do know that they would be a crutch for a person with panic attacks.
> 
> I am someone who knows panic and anxiety very well, too well in my opinion.
> But panic attacks is something that you can cure, not saying it is easy. The key point in getting better is doing it by yourself.
> ...


Winnow, you know as well as I do that I did not put words in your mouth. I said that I ASSUME that you would consider medication for panic disorder to be a crutch just as a dog would be a crutch. They both help you overcome your panic attack.

I too know how this disease works. Now, I mentioned earlier that I do not have a panic disorder. And this is true because my panic attacks do not currently affect the quality of my life. However, I _have_ had several panic attacks in my life. I can't tell you how many times I have called 911 or gone to the ER thinking I was dying or having a heart attack. I studied psychology for four years, so I am lucky enough to KNOW that these are just panic attacks and I am able to talk myself through them, most of the time. I know that drinking a glass of cold water will help, or splashing my face with water, or laying down on the cold floor in one situation. 

The most recent panic attack I had occurred in the middle of the night while I was staying in a hotel. I was with my boyfriend, but he was of no help of course because he was sleeping. 

Anyway, my point, Winnow, is that I do not think it is appropriate for you to say that a service dog would simply not be effective for a person with a panic disorder. This may be true for *you[/B, but I guarantee there are some people out there who simply cannot overcome their panic disorder on their own. I do believe that there are some people who suffer so much they may need a dog, whether it be a service dog that performs a task for the person or a therapy dog that provides a calming touch. 

Please do not say that a service dog cannot help anybody with a panic disorder overcome their disease. This is your belief, but it is not true for every single person.

ETA: What if someone suffers from a co morbid disease along with panic disorder? Depression, anxiety and panic disorder often go hand in hand. A therapy dog, or perhaps a service dog (again, depending on their role) could help the person cope with depression or anxiety through therapeutic touch or exercise. This could then concurrently help the person gain control over their panic disorder.*


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> I wasn't making fun of your broken English


Well, you called it again "broken" LMAO  However "broken" it is, it was "good enough" to put me into graduate program in one of the top 20 USA Universities LOL, AND, my GRE score was 86% . I find your comments very condescending and out of place.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope that any of my posts were not perceived as an "attack" since they were absolutely not directed toward anybody but were just observation and general discussion about how "sickness" is perceived in the society and how there is never *one* correct approach to any disease.

What helps one individual might help many others but NEVER all. 

As we can see from testimonies of just 5 members (and we are observing a single condition) - all of them vary in intensity and frequency as well as the level of over-all debilitation. Some can walk 2 blocks alone, some can walk one isle alone, some can go alone everywhere. Why is that the case ???

The number of attacks is different as well as the intensity of an attack. Why they differ ??? Because the number and intensity of neural impulses in the brain as well throughout the body differs. The amount of adrenaline produced from adrenal glands differ. The whole clinical picture differs accordingly. We will have patients who have short and very rare attacks and patients with violent and long lasting and frequent attacks. Level of debilitation will be VERY different and would vary from person who is fully functional regardless of having a condition and the person who sits in the corner of the sofa and contemplates a suicide. 

Sometimes chemical imbalances in the brain and nervous system in general (which are again in absolute correlation with endocrine system and both effect immune system ) are so much out of "normal range" that it is IMPOSSIBLE to re-balance them without use of medication, for example, even if it is used just on temporary bases. 

I know that it is sometimes hard to understand dynamic of psychological diseases and that people often mix "mind" with the "brain" and think that by training the mind they can train the brain, but it is just not the case *sigh. Different modalities (meds and therapy) can help with "managing" the symptoms but biochemical pathways that are out of balance will always have a tendency to get "out of balance" repeatedly throughout a life. 

If somebody is not able to function fully and productively and live life to the fullest, than band-aid is necessary and for many a welcome and only relief, does not matter what medical condition it is. Denying that possibility to anybody is wrong IMO. 

For that reason, I support any modality, including a service dog, to anybody who might benefit in any way from it - on temporary or permanent bases.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Wishpoo - you have a way with words and you stated, very clearly, many of the things I was thinking myself.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Holy cow...why is everyone on this thread so touchy? I did not find Winnow's statements mean or rude and surely did not find Keith's statement condescending or uncalled for. Sometimes I think people just get a bee in their bonnet about someone on here and look for things to bitch about. For the most part we all suffer from panic disorder and are simply voicing OUR opinions on if a dog would help. No dissing intended, just our opinion.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

People are getting their panties in a cow because certain people are making generalizations and saying that they "know" that a service dog would be a crutch to someone with a panic disorder. As wishpoo said, everyone heals in a different way. What works for you may not work for someone else.

Psychological disorders are a touchy subject in general. Especially when generalizations and bold statements are made about what is or is not an appropriate way to cope with/manage or treat a psychological illness.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

-shakes head-

I truly enjoy the fact that I'M the immature one on this forum

way to misconstrue things Wishpoo 

((BY THE BY OSU is Ranked 14th in Education graduate degrees...so I'll be attending a "top 20" school as well ;D))

______________________


and ChocolateMillie, I agree with you that generalizations SHOULDN'T be made
but ASSUMPTIONS shouldn't be made as well
and thats precisely why this whole "argument" started, Karma was under the impression that Disa was attacking ALL service/therapy dogs and it just didn't happen that way
instead of saying "Hey...what do you mean by that exactly?! " it went in a different direction


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

keithsomething said:


> -shakes head-
> 
> i truly enjoy the fact that i'm the immature one on this forum
> 
> ...



right??


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm not trying to argue  Just an educated debate. I am sorry but I feel very strongly about the issue as I have a degree in psychology


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

While waiting for the app. I opened magazine and the first article I saw was about *service dogs that help diabetics *!!! :act-up: Talking about serendipity moment : )))) !

Dogs are able to detect hypoglycemia also :angel2: and alert patients that it is time to take medication !!!!

Here is the link for the organization that pioneered in training dogs to do that task :act-up:

Dogs4Diabetics - providing medical alert assistance dogs to insulin-dependent diabetics


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

LMAO!!! 

WOW - this is to the point of amusing now

Hey look what I can do :aetsch:

I am giving up on doctors and coming here for my diagnosis!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

OMG!!! LMAO!!!! Ollie..you are priceless!!!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Olie said:


> LMAO!!!
> 
> WOW - this is to the point of amusing now
> 
> ...


You'll end up with meds and a service dog  He he


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

:adore: Thanks Dr. Millie :angel2:


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> -shakes head-
> 
> I truly enjoy the fact that I'M the immature one on this forum
> 
> ...



Keith, I am not sure wth your problem is, but there is absolutely no need to be so darned rude to a member like Wishpoo.
This is not the first time you to have done this to wishpoo, and I have ignored it before, but quite frankly it's getting tiresome ...
It's also not the first time you bragged about what school your are attending as if this means you are superior to other members on this board, which is hardly mature... and so far none of your posts have actually demonstrated you have learnt anything from there
Seriously, just grow up.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

jak said:


> Keith, I am not sure wth your problem is, but there is absolutely no need to be so darned rude to a member like Wishpoo.
> This is not the first time you to have done this to wishpoo, and I have ignored it before, but quite frankly it's getting tiresome ...
> It's also not the first time you bragged about what school your are attending as if this means you are superior to other members on this board, which is hardly mature... and so far none of your posts have actually demonstrated you have learnt anything from there
> Seriously, just grow up.


WHAT???? This is hilarious Jak! I have a feeling you are trying to tick Keith off so he will say something so you can try and have him kicked off this forum. He did not say anything wrong. Wishpoo misconstrued what he said and he pointed that out. Practice what you preach!


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> WHAT???? This is hilarious Jak! I have a feeling you are trying to tick Keith off so he will say something so you can try and have him kicked off this forum. He did not say anything wrong. Wishpoo misconstrued what he said and he pointed that out. Practice what you preach!


Where exactly is wishpoo misconstrued ? 
I'm sorry CP but this is not the *first* time that Keith has been so insolent and downright rude to wishpoo, and this is hardly archetypal behaviour, do you condone this type of behaviour do you?



ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Practice what you preach!


Highly hypocritical here, do you really want me to put my fantastic research skills to the test ?


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Back on topic everyone.

The administrator has made me aware of some of you receiving warnings from him regarding your attitude and comportment on this forum and he has asked me to watch for conflicts from these individuals. I am requesting that members do not make threats of any kind here. This is not mature nor helpful to the OP and her topic.

I have been off of the forum for a couple of days helping a friend so haven't been able to keep track of goings on... I ask you to bring this thread back on track or it will be closed.

Thank you.

Barb Plum
Moderator


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

So, back in August, when I learned that my Dad had cancer and didn't have long to live, I went into a mental state that I had not been in since September of 2001. Some of you know this already, but I was actually working in the WTC when that happened. I lost friends and colleagues. I went through PTSD and still do to this day. When I'm on a bus or driving my car through the Lincoln Tunnel, and the traffic comes to a dead stop, all I think about is what if someone blows up the tunnel and we all drown? Drowning and burning to death are my two biggest fears, although I've heard that drowning isn't all that unpleasant. But, I digress.

Getting back to my Dad, I decided that I needed to be with my parents in Nashville, but I had no idea how long my Dad had or how long I would be out there. I envisioned flying back and forth a few times before he passed (although that didn't happen). Before I left, I went to see my psychiatrist to tell him that I needed Teddy to be with me all the time--especially now, and especially when I'm traveling by air. 

He wrote a note for me, which I submitted to Continental so that they could do their verification. They wanted 48 hours to check it out ahead of time. In the end, I didn't end up flying at all (I drove 14 hours instead--with Teddy riding shotgun) because he passed away after only six weeks. I was and am still shocked and devastated by the loss. 

Teddy comforts me in a way that no person can. When I have panic attacks, I don't always know what the trigger was. Sometimes, I don't think there has to be a trigger. Some people have panic attacks that are biological in nature, and not always tied to some identifiable event. I am one of those people. My panic attacks mimic heart attacks, and since I am now at that "certain age" when people start having heart attacks, it's not a very pleasant experience.

My opinion on this "touchy" subject is that everyone is different, everyone is unique, and everyone should be able to decide for themselves what works and what doesn't. 

I have worked with Teddy since he was 10 or 11 weeks old, making sure he was well socialized, well behaved, well trained and just all around a dog who people don't mind having around. I do this because I don't want anyone thinking that I call him my service dog just because I want my fluffy lap dog to be able to run around the airplane, or whatever. I don't take him into restaurants or other places that sell food, because it isn't necessary for me. I can get food delivered, or I can have someone from work help me. I don't take advantage of public access, in other words. 

But when faced with a severe panic attack in an enclosed space like a bus, with no fresh air or anyplace to escape to, I can massage his neck and back and it's like all that negative stuff gets pushed out of me. I do take medication for my panic attacks, but it makes me drowsy and I don't drive when I take it; Teddy doesn't dull my senses in any way, and he always seems to know when I need him. The pills don't.

And you know what? I don't really care what anyone else thinks of what I do. I don't mean that to sound fresh or rude in any way, but we all have to look after ourselves the best way we know how. If we don't, who's going to?

But, by the same token, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So anyway, let's not paint everyone with the same brush--some things are highly personal and people have to do what's best for themselves. End of.

PS I appreciate that link that Wishpoo posted--I will be training Teddy to do some of those things.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> My opinion on this "touchy" subject is that everyone is different, everyone is unique, and everyone should be able to decide for themselves what works and what doesn't.


Thanks Marian for sharing your story since it might be of big help to anybody who wishes to have his/her dog as a part of their PA therapy. 

I am glad you find my post useful and I am glad to hear that your puppy can bring you such fast and complete peace of mind and serenity in the time of great distress and is enabling you to live productive and active life :angel2:

Sending both of you love and blessings :rose::rose::rose:


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks, Wishpoo.

Another point I meant to make and forgot was that having a human support system in place changes the whole dynamic of anxiety and panic disorders for a lot of people. Having a supportive partner or adult child who lives with you can do a lot for alleviating anxiety (of course, having a non-supportive or abusive partner or child can have the COMPLETELY opposite effect, but that's another issue).

I live alone and have sisters and a mom who don't understand my disorder. My dad was the only one who could make me feel better, and it wasn't because he truly understood what I was going through, but he just knew me well enough to know what to say to "talk me down" (so to speak). That's one reason why I miss him so much, and why I'm struggling with the anxiety--a lot of which is related to not having him to talk to.

I just can't stress enough the importance of having someone who loves you unconditionally in your life if you're battling with anxiety, and as we all well know, dogs can and do fill that position as well (if not better) as another human being.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Marian I am so sorry for the recent loss of your dad and that you as well deal with the anxiety and PA's.


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## OverTheTopFarm (Nov 13, 2010)

plumcrazy said:


> I'm an administrative assistant for the ND Protection & Advocacy Project (an independent state agency which advocates for the rights of people with disabilities) Our advocates get calls occasionally from people who feel their rights are being violated in regard to service animals.
> 
> I'm trying to learn to differentiate between "service" and "therapy" animal definitions. Please correct me if my interpretation is wrong - but I believe "service" animals have been trained to perform a specific task or tasks to assist a person who has a physical or mental disability. A "therapy" animal would be an animal that makes the person feel better - calmer, more in control, etc., but hasn't necessarily been trained to do anything specific for that person.


I have not read the last couple of pages of posts, but feel it is critical to correct this statement. I appreciate that you admit you are still learning, because that is important.

A "therapy" animal is an animal that is certified to go to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. and make OTHERS feel better (others meaning someone other than the handler). What you described above as "an animal that makes the person feel better - calmer, more in control, etc.", with the person meaning the handler, that would be more closely defined as an emotional support animal. 

A service dog is task trained to perform certain functions for an individual who is considered disabled under the Americans with Disabilities Act. 

A service dog has many public access rights that neither a therapy dog nor an emotional support animal has. An emotional support animal has some access rights that a therapy dog does not have.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Although occasionally a therapy dog will live with the person. For example, I know of one organization that will allow a child with autism to live with/or be given the therapy dog. From what I read, this would still not be considered a service dog. 

Is this true or am I wrong?


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Although occasionally a therapy dog will live with the person. For example, I know of one organization that will allow a child with autism to live with/or be given the therapy dog. From what I read, this would still not be considered a service dog.
> 
> Is this true or am I wrong?


Dogs given to kids/people with autism are service dogs.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Oh okay, thanks  That does actually make sense.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

At the agency where I work (we are mandated to ONLY assist people with disabilities) we receive calls from clients who feel they need their pet for comfort/mental health/etc. and have been told by a landlord that they must get rid of their pet. If their doctor is willing to write a "prescription" for that person that they MUST keep their pet as a necessary health measure, the landlords have to be willing to allow it.

These are not specially trained service pets and most of the time aren't even well-trained therapy (CGC graduates) pets - but just family members that the person with the disability is unable to live without (Emotional Support Animal sounds like an excellent description.)

An individual with autism may have a well-loved dog (not necessarily a "service" dog, but an emotional support animal) that can help that person live a better, more productive life; and that dog will live with the person.

The service dogs I have heard about cost thousands (and thousands) of dollars, where a therapy dog or an emotional support animal may be the stray someone picked up off the street and trained well enough to fulfill their requirements.


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Barb - What defines a service dog is simply being trained to perform at least one specific task that helps the handler do something they have difficultly or cannot do for themselves. That could be anything from picking up a medicine bottle off the floor, turning on a light, or helping them cross the street. The task only has to be specific to the handler's disability. There are some service dogs who merely have to stand close to their handlers to steady them.

A service dog does not have to cost thousands of dollars and _can_ be a mutt rescued from the pound. The dog does not have to be specially trained by a certified trainer and can be handler trained. A dog could begin its life with its trainer as a pet and then evolve into a service dog, as is the case with a lot of seizure alert dogs. 

From there, a handler can choose to do more extensive training. I think the CGC is a minimum requirement for public access for service dogs, although there really aren't any "official" requirements mandated by law. It really comes down to a matter of etiquette and good manners.

That's my understanding of it, at least.


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## OverTheTopFarm (Nov 13, 2010)

plumcrazy said:


> At the agency where I work (we are mandated to ONLY assist people with disabilities) we receive calls from clients who feel they need their pet for comfort/mental health/etc. and have been told by a landlord that they must get rid of their pet. If their doctor is willing to write a "prescription" for that person that they MUST keep their pet as a necessary health measure, the landlords have to be willing to allow it.
> 
> These are not specially trained service pets and most of the time aren't even well-trained therapy (CGC graduates) pets - but just family members that the person with the disability is unable to live without (Emotional Support Animal sounds like an excellent description.)
> 
> ...


The doctor requested/approved animals for in home purposes are covered under a law other than the ADA ... I believe it is the fair housing act or something like that.

Regarding Autism ... autism "can" be a covered condition under the ADA and if the dog is trained to assist with tasks then it would be considered a service dog. Service dogs do not have to be provided by an organization in order to be considered service dogs ... you can take any appropriate dog and IF it has the appropriate temperament and trainability, it could be trained to mitigate the disability. In my state, there is a program where selectively chosen dogs are rescued from shelters, provided to a prison program, and worked through a program to become trained as either wonderful pets or service dogs (if they make it all the way through). Then those dogs are assigned to disabled folks that they match with based on need and ability. 

But, if an owner already has a dog, AND this dog is appropriate for service work, it could be trained by the owner (hopefully with professional trainer assistance, but not required) to perform the tasks that would mitigate their disability.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I thought I would share as this applies directly to this thread!

I am sitting in a coffee shop doing work while Millie and Henry are being groomed. There is a lady here having coffee with her friends and her service dog. She has been talking about returning from combat in Iraq, panic attacks and how she was given a service dog.


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