# How many dogs is too many dogs for a reputable breeder to have?



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Yes, that is WAY too many breeding dogs. Please PM me and let me know who this is, and I will try my best to help you. That is bizarre that they would go from breeding one color to all of those unconventional colors if they are in the show world. Red flags already! I can tell your gut is telling you this!


----------



## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

It depends. Are all of the 20 dogs living in the home? If a kennel facility, what are the conditions? Some people are okay with kennels but, it might warrant a visit. Are some of the dogs non-breeding, even other breeds that are family pets?

Hobby breeders usually raise only a few litters a year, so that the puppies have the attention needed during critical developmental periods. Are all of the litters being raised by the breeder? Or do they have guardian homes or co-owners who are raising puppies?

It’s not unusual for a breeder to have more than one color. There are breeders of partis that breed to improve the parti lines. I’ve seen (responsible) breeders of reds who also have blacks, breeders of browns who also have blacks, whites and blacks in the same litter, etc.

More details are needed. And then you need to decide what’s important to you.


----------



## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Yes, that is WAY too many breeding dogs. Please PM me and let me know who this is, and I will try my best to help you. That is bizarre that they would go from breeding one color to all of those unconventional colors if they are in the show world. Red flags already! I can tell your gut is telling you this!


The color expansion was alarming to me. I realize when you breed animals you can't foresee 100% what color puppies will be produced but they have litters of each color now. 

I don't know if all the dogs are breeding dogs but I know they have posted several litters being born this year and several more going home to their new homes. 

I will PM you as you may know more about the breeder. I was under the assumption that they specialized, for lack of a better word, in one color but I do not know what breeding entails and maybe they need the different colors to get the one color?


----------



## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

scooterscout99 said:


> It depends. Are all of the 20 dogs living in the home? If a kennel facility, what are the conditions? Some people are okay with kennels but, it might warrant a visit. Are some of the dogs non-breeding, even other breeds that are family pets?
> 
> Hobby breeders usually raise only a few litters a year, so that the puppies have the attention needed during critical developmental periods. Are all of the litters being raised by the breeder? Or do they have guardian homes or co-owners who are raising puppies?
> 
> ...


I am not sure if all of the dogs are breeding dogs but the pictures posted and the statues posted, along with the website says that all the dogs stay at home with them. I do not know if they are kennel breeders but they do have a large property (according, once again, to Facebook pictures and posts). Some of the pictures show some of the newer litters in kennels outside but I do not know if that is for training or other purposes. 

I get that litters can produce different colors no matter how careful you are but this breeder has litters of browns, partis, phantoms, apricots and silvers. That just seemed alarming to me because when I spoke with them initially they only reared one color with the occasion black or white puppy in the litter.


----------



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

If they breed toys or minis, it is not unusual to see good breeders have that many dogs who are kept in the house as pets, shown and bred.

For spoos, I would think it’s not possible to have that many in the house. I wouldn’t buy from someone who doesn’t keep their dogs indoors as pets.


----------



## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

Dechi said:


> If they breed toys or minis, it is not unusual to see good breeders have that many dogs who are kept in the house as pets, shown and bred.
> 
> For spoos, I would think it’s not possible to have that many in the house. I wouldn’t buy from someone who doesn’t keep their dogs indoors as pets.


These are standards, I should have clarified.

I have not been down to the property personally so I can not say how the dogs are kept for certain, just by what I’ve seen on Facebook.

This breeder does show as well, they have several champions. I do not know if all of the dogs are breeding dogs though.


----------



## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

Also, I want to clarify that these dogs seem to be very well taken care of. There are always pictures and updates of health testing, vet visits, outings, socialization, etc. they seem very loved and I’m not questioning if there is neglect. I am just wondering if the number of dogs is something I should be mindful of before I purchase from this breeder.


----------



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Lex16 said:


> The breeder came highly recommended from this forum a few years ago, they do all of the testing and follow the recommended practices I’ve been told to look for in a breeder. A few participants here have told me they’ve gotten their dogs from this breeder and they love the breeder....
> 
> Also, I want to clarify that these dogs seem to be very well taken care of. There are always pictures and updates of health testing, vet visits, outings, socialization, etc. they seem very loved and I’m not questioning if there is neglect. I am just wondering if the number of dogs is something I should be mindful of before I purchase from this breeder.




DNA tested and cleared of genetic diseases - check.
Hips tested fair to good - ?
Available original health testing documentation papers OR posted on OFA or at lab testing site - ? 

Several dogs are champions - check.
Is either the sire or dam of a particular litter champion, or are at least half of the four grandparents champs - ??

Healthy well fed appearance? - check.
All 20+ adults and litters living indoors? - highly unlikely.
Large property - is there a fenced area or dog runs for them the play in? - unknown

Off the top, I'd wonder:


On health paper documentation, lab site documentation, and/or the OFA site if the the sire and dam are microchipped, and if those numbers are consistent. This is the reason why. 

Where are the puppies kept and at what age are they sold?

Does she have at least one assistant to help her with the care of the dogs? 

*Thoughts:*

If the DNA and other health clearances check out, the puppies are genetically sound and healthy as far as testable tests are available. As with humans, we can't know what diseases our dogs might develop in life. Every time we dare to love, we take a risk that one day that person or beloved pet will die prematurely, just as they do with us. 

Combined with numerous show champions in the pedigrees, we can assume that most or all of the puppies will be attractive and have good body structure that conforms to the standard of the breed. Hopefully temperament was also a factor in the matings.



As for the breeder trying out different colors, I don't see this as a big deal. People like to try new things. The other colors and phantoms likely caught her eye, and she widened her net. I've seen some breeders try showing and breeding a second type of purebred they also like as much as poodles. 


Personally, I could not care less if she has 20 adult dogs as long as they're well cared for. Ideally they would sleep in my room or bed and have run of at least part of a home, but with that many, not a chance. 

If their primary living quarters are in a separate building that is clean and several of them sleep together with plenty of space to move around, this is preferable b/c a dog sitting in a cage by itself for long periods of time is probably not very happy. This is b/c dogs are pack animals.

Another factor is if the go outside to play each day (and for how long) when she lets them out to relieve themselves and gets to run around. California has great weather most of the time, so it's a plus if they're outside most of the day to run, play, and sleep.

In that case they're probably happy _if that's all they've ever known_. 

Until flea collars and dips were available around the 1960s, followed by much better and less toxic flea control products later, this is how many dogs lived - outside. That's because exterminating fleas from your house was quite hard until then. 

You otherwise would not want to put a 4 or 5+ month old lap puppy or house dog in an outdoor kennel, he/she may never be completely happy as it would miss that style of living and the previously frequent one-on-one affection.


So if health documentation checks out to be true, the puppies are likely to be sound in body and genetics. This is what most buyers want. You'd probably want to buy one from her at 8 to 10 weeks of age so it can adjust quickly to your lifestyle and get more socialization and start housebreaking it. 

If you choose this breeder, just take your time to select a pup that has a pleasing temperament that matches your needs, i.e., very calm or active, and likes you too.


Btw, many of the top show breeders have a bunch a dogs they talk about publicly or to the buyers. You talk to enough of them and form a relationship even on the phone, and often you discover this. Many may also have photos of half a dozen of the best breeding dogs on their web page, but when you ask who the parent of a particular litter are, one of them are not listed on their site. Darn few will also let you tour their property. 

One said that "What separates them from puppy millers are their dogs are genetically health tested, healthy, win ribbons, some to many make championship, that they own 'only' a dozen or two, and the size of the crates are larger and they get to go outside _a lot_ and play with each other _and_ humans." I'd add that a smart staff to dog ratio would be critical so good care would not be compromised. 

I don't know if that particular lady would be called a medium or high volume show breeder, but it's clear to me that while those who do this run a business which doubles as an expensive passion from the love of the breed. 

If they provide quality care of their poodles, select the best to breed, and are honest in their dealings with others, I see no reason to not buy a puppy from them.


----------



## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

Vita said:


> Lex16 said:
> 
> 
> > The breeder came highly recommended from this forum a few years ago, they do all of the testing and follow the recommended practices I’ve been told to look for in a breeder. A few participants here have told me they’ve gotten their dogs from this breeder and they love the breeder....
> ...


Thank you so much for this insightful bit of information. It has definitely alleviated some of my concerns and given me more knowledge to go off of.


----------



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Vita said:


> Personally, *I could not care less if she has 20 adult dogs as long as they're well cared for. * Ideally they would sleep in my room or bed and have run of at least part of a home, but with that many, not a chance.
> 
> If their primary living quarters are in a separate building that is clean and several of them sleep together with plenty of space to move around, this is preferable b/c a dog sitting in a cage by itself for long periods of time is probably not very happy. This is b/c dogs are pack animals.
> 
> ...


First of all, I have 6 dogs that I care for and that is way overboard for any one person. So 20+++ dogs is just insane for one person (if she doesn't have an entire family or hired help). 

Secondly, my poodles would be MISERABLE being in some other building away from the family. That qualifies as a MILL in my opinion. 

Thirdly, I live in CA and my dogs prefer to be inside the house on beds and sofas 90% of the time. And I live in the BEST part of CA, weather wise. Other places are way too hot in the summer and cold in the winter. Miserable for a dog like a spoo. 

I would NEVER deal with a breeder like the one you describe. You didn't PM me with the name, but I can probably figure out who it is via my poodle connections.


----------



## rkj__ (Dec 24, 2017)

MaizieFrosty said:


> So 20+++ dogs is just insane for one person (if she doesn't have an entire family or hired help).


Of course! I'd be shocked if there were not numerous people involved in supporting 20+ dogs.


----------



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

rkj__ said:


> Of course! I'd be shocked if there were not numerous people involved in supporting 20+ dogs.


You never know until you visit--never assume anything! I know of a famous poodle breeder in the Bay Area who was once supposedly great, but then became a hoarder. She lives alone and still breeds spoos. Wondering if this is the same person.


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Of the 20, some could be with a handler showing, others in a co-owner arrangement, and hopefully a few are retired, enjoying the California weather, furniture privileges. If there are 20 breeding pairs, it’s on a commercial scale and they need kennel staff. For me, the colors, veering from the wide range of accepted AKC colors to phantoms, parti’s etc. gives me pause. You don’t normally see better breeders going that route.


----------



## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

Mfmst said:


> Of the 20, some could be with a handler showing, others in a co-owner arrangement, and hopefully a few are retired, enjoying the California weather, furniture privileges. If there are 20 breeding pairs, it’s on a commercial scale and they need kennel staff. For me, the colors, veering from the wide range of accepted AKC colors to phantoms, parti’s etc. gives me pause. You don’t normally see better breeders going that route.


Thank you for your input. The color range alarms me too, especially with the phantoms and partis. When I first joined this forum I was in love with phantoms (I still think they are striking) and you all were very helpful in explaining to me the recognized colors, genetics and breeding for betterment and not popularity.

I don’t know if the phantoms are purposefully being bred or if the litters were accidental.


----------



## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Vita said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, *I could not care less if she has 20 adult dogs as long as they're well cared for. * Ideally they would sleep in my room or bed and have run of at least part of a home, but with that many, not a chance.
> ...


I sent a PM but it looks like it didn’t go through. I won’t send another one because my goal isn’t to bash or bad talk this breeder, Just to get some understanding.

They are an AKC registered breeder and with the opinions on this post, it seems they may be a good breeder overall. I most likely will not go with them just because I would like to get a puppy that comes from an environment I feel is more intimate. There is a breeder with the same color in AZ that’s on my list as well so I’m not completely out of luck.


----------



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Lex16 said:


> I sent a PM but it looks like it didn’t go through. I won’t send another one because my goal isn’t to bash or bad talk this breeder, Just to get some understanding.
> 
> They are an AKC registered breeder and with the opinions on this post, it seems they may be a good breeder overall. I most likely will not go with them just because I would like to get a puppy that comes from an environment I feel is more intimate. There is a breeder with the same color in AZ that’s on my list as well so I’m not completely out of luck.


That's interesting, because I've been getting/sending out PMs with no problem the past few days... 

"AKC registered" means nothing in terms of quality. We have a puppy mill rescue dog who is AKC registered. 

Anyhow I'm glad you are going with a smaller breeder. I think that's a very wise choice. I wouldn't worry a bit about color, but all about the breeder's honesty, integrity, health testing, temperament, number of dogs, etc.


----------



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Vita said:


> ...I'd add that a smart staff to dog ratio would be critical so good care would not be compromised...


In case anyone missed this sentence, there it is. And yes, one person taking care of more than a half dozen poodles is too much. So family or staff-to-dog ratio is critical.




MaizieFrosty said:


> ...Secondly, my poodles would be MISERABLE being in some other building away from the family. That qualifies as a MILL in my opinion.


Of course they would, and so would mine; they grew up as house pets.


*On the other hand, let's all sit back and enjoy another perspective. * 

See these guys below? I kinda doubt they got to or get to run around the house or sleep on a sofa after a day's work:

*Poodle sled dogs in the Iditarod, (link)*




*Poodle herding dogs, (link)**




Poodles As War Dogs, (link1) and (link2)

*​


And let's not forget *Poodle hunting duck/gun dogs* used today and throughout history, and even more recently as *Truffle hunting dogs*. Yep, nothing like hard working poodles with muddy feet tracking through the house and lounging around on one's sofa. 

*My point is our PF poodles are pampered*, but over the centuries, nature and humans designed them to live in a variety of conditions - but like all dogs, _not_ to live in puppy mills or with abusive or neglectful owners. Those people might have a special place in Hades.



*Regarding the unnamed breeder that the OP discussed:*



MaizieFrosty said:


> ... I can probably figure out who it is via my poodle connections...


Yes, and then what? Seriously, MF, then what? If you haven't visited her set up and seen the poodles, and had a meaningful conversation to learn _first hand_ how she/they does what she does, then everything you guess is speculation particularly if everything you hear is based on opinionated 2nd, 3rd, or 4th party rumors, rather than facts that this show breeder "is running a puppy mill." That's just wrong. A judge would fry you in court.

I know close to ten well-known show breeders in the US who have over a dozen breeding poodles, several who have been recommended here. 

Good for them, I'm glad they're replacing the poodle population with quality dogs. _Who am I to complain and judge_ that they might sleep in an external building that the breeder spent a lot of thought and money designing? As long as they're well-fed, clean, warm, get to play a lot outside, go to their shows or activities for socialization, have good healthcare and testing, and not overbred past the age of five, they're taking care of those poodles and lucky to break a little better than even.

I mean, we're not talking backyard breeders who stick a bunch of poodles in a shed behind their trailer, or their laundry room in small crates strictly for profit. We're talking about the better show people who are breeding knowledgeably and compassionately out of their love for the breed. 

My best guess is what the OP described is only the tip of the iceberg. It _is_ a business, often by accident and sometimes by design once anyone starts showing and breeding multiple poodles, otherwise they'd go broke quick, fast, and in a hurry. 

This is why I have never put top show breeders on pedestal with a few exceptions like Arreau who places most of her breeding dogs in foster homes.

*Otherwise I prefer educated, small hobby breeders who might have a champion stud or two, a few good females, or contract with a champion stud owner. In other words, these breeders have only a few good poodles and home-raise them. *

******

*Pragmatically,* my concern is that when we (PF members and otherwise) are negative toward knowledgeable breeders who do things differently than _we_ would, it is folly to somehow try to informally make things hard for them.

*Why? As poodle lovers we are shooting ourselves in the foot.* 

How many times have I said on PF that too many of us already are *wait-listed for months and have to go state-hopping * to find a well-bred, health cleared poodle with a good pedigree? It's not like they're a dime a dozen and an hour drive away from our homes. I could look this weekend and find a nice, health tested Golden Retriever or Labrador pup nearby. But a poodle? Nope. 

We _need_ the top show breeders to continue the _best of the breed_ *so our beloved poodles won't end up on an endangered list*. This has already left the door wide open for puppy millers taking up the slack and pumping out 2nd rate poodles with DNA and other health problems that make us cringe. 

I don't expect for some/many of you to agree publicly or otherwise. This is the beauty of different opinions on this site and the pros and cons of our viewpoints, and _what to look out for_. Respectfully to all, consider mine only food for thought.


----------



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I don't have time to read this long post, but here are some thoughts:

I can have whatever opinion I want to have. I never said anyone had to agree with it. But, I have strong opinions. That's what makes me someone who always stands out in life's flock of sheep. 

Anyone who needs a staff to take care of their dogs is running a business, and I don't think it's ethical to make money off of living creatures. Break even after paying for show expenses? Sure.

My dogs are titled in many different sports, including coursing and barn hunt (and they would kick ass in hunting if it were offered around here). They are not frou frou dogs, but by the same token, when they are done with their sport, they come home to relax on the sofa. No companion dog should ever live outside. 

I'm not sure what waiting lists you're talking about, as I could find a health tested spoo to buy tonight. Toys and minis from good breeders are harder to find since they produce much smaller litters.


----------



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

MaizieFrosty said:


> I don't have time to read this long post...


Why am I not surprised?


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

MaizieFrosty said:


> rkj__ said:
> 
> 
> > Of course! I'd be shocked if there were not numerous people involved in supporting 20+ dogs.
> ...


There was a vile hoarding situation near us. Border collies. Local rescues are still working on it, months after the woman passed away. 

What shocked me is that I heard this woman, for many years, was selling puppies locally, and was well-liked by the community. Not sure when exactly it all went off the rails.

But yeah. A passion for breeding (or for a particular breed) can be a slippery slope for some. And all is not necessarily what it seems from the outside. The internet, especially, makes it easy to put up a professional front.


----------



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

MaizieFrosty said:


> I don't have time to read this long post, but here are some thoughts:
> 
> I can have whatever opinion I want to have. I never said anyone had to agree with it. But, I have strong opinions. That's what makes me someone who always stands out in life's flock of sheep.


I never said you couldn't, and my opinion of your flock of sheep comment is it was a veiled insult. Did this give strength to your opinion and ability to influence others? Not likely. People already pretty much know what their opinions are. This is why offered some facts and some members may not be aware of.

This is what I should have responded but I was tired and I've been down that road with you before. What I offered in Post #18 was a _counter viewpoint_, more for others who may stumble across this thread and not just you. This was to provide another side of the issue with:


Factual poodle history and context, 
Of how more top show breeders run their business with lots of dogs than we know,
My own experiences, readings, thoughts and opinions of what to beware of when one meets a show or any other kind of breeder with many poodles and when to walk away, 
And a warning to not disparage anyone based on hearsay and rumors; it's not cool and may land you court. 

There's more than our opinions on this topic. PeggyTheParti made an excellent point to beware of possible hoarding situations. Off hand I can think of one lady who was top show breeder for 30+ years and had beautiful poodles. By the time she hit her 50s, complaints began stacking up, and by her 60s, she had so many that their conditions became abysmal. Her dogs were confiscated and AKC stripped her of membership and breeding rights. It was a sad ending to her decades long impressive show dog career. 




MaizieFrosty said:


> ... Anyone who needs a staff to take care of their dogs is running a business, and I don't think it's ethical to make money off of living creatures. Break even after paying for show expenses? Sure...


If that's the measuring stick for superior values, then the flip side of that coin is it ethical for a buyer _to pay_ for a living creature? 

Should those who embrace that belief even buy poodles? The hardcore PETA crowd would say no, that no dog should be bred until the last shelter dog is rehomed. How far should anyone take it in trying to be a good person? 

Utopia visions like this don't take into account many other expenses like veterinary healthcare and insurance, DNA and other lab testing, travel expenses, food and supplies, grooming, training, paying for handlers to show their dog, and for big show people, campaigning or advertising in Poodle Variety, AKC Marketplace, etc., and particularly, *the enormous amount of time* good breeders put into reproducing the fabulous poodles we all love. 

And who gets to decide what their minimum & maximum wage or profit should be for their time? In one year a good breeder might have a profit after expenses, followed by the next year when they're deep in the red. 

It all comes down to comfort level. For those who wouldn't go near a show breeder with a pack of show poodles living in an exterior building, no matter how great their pedigree is and their health testing is impeccable, I get it, and I said so in Post #18 in bold font why I prefer small hobby breeders. 

But as realist, I know they aren't the only game in town.


----------



## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I most definitely would never go with a breeder who couldn't prove that their dogs live in the home and are considered pets. A few months back, I looked at the Youtube channel of a breeder. In one of the videos posted by the breeder, she was grooming one of her own dogs, and that dog looked like an absolute mess. The breeder mentioned something in the video about how much time time her dogs spend outside. Not that many people had viewed the video, but those who did raised the same concerns I did, and wondered if the dogs lived outside the home. This person is an AKC breeder who shows dogs. Disappointing.


----------



## Moni (May 8, 2018)

So I have owned both - dogs produced by the top breeder of its breed living in a kennel and having staff wait on them hand and foot. Their pedigree was beyond impressive (Sensation the logo of the Westminster Kennel Club was the great grandfather of my dog - many generations ago). The two BIS winners of its breed at the Westminster Show both prominently featured in the pedigree. They lived in one of the most expensive zip codes in NJ (less than an hour away from NYC). The building and the attached home was as if ready for House Beautiful - an American version of a English Country Estate. And then I have had dogs from hobby breeders - of all shades from enthusiastic hobbyists trying to compete with major money figures to more than just a little bit more serious busybodies with jobs supporting their obsession. I think in the end it depends so much on which breed you have your eye on. Some breeds are massively money breeds were an amateur will not get very far. The Poodle is one such breed. The investment in time in hair alone will make any and all amateurs ineffective at the very least but probably fail in the long run running up against professionals from handlers to groomers to breeders. Showing a Poodle is not the same as showing a Pointer - and therein lies the difference. I am not defending the kennel situation - I would have second thoughts as well, but at the same time it is unrealistic to demand that a successful Poodle breeder be an amateur, because I think that makes them a unicorn. You can get far in many breeds showing with less demands on skilled grooming but in the Poodle I think it is unrealistic.


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

If a breeder has 11 non-spayed females on site, that is deemed a commercial breeding facility in Texas, subject to specific, humane animal husbandry standards. For some reason, special use breeders, for hunting or herding skate away. Exempt. So are they or aren’t they, commercial breeders under California Law? If their program, facilities and health testing are proven, I would certainly investigate if the color concerns didn’t stop me cold. I would bet Buck, California limits on breeding females are lower. Anyway, lots of great breeders in California, and a wise move to get on a wait list with a breeder you can admire.


----------



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Moni said:


> So I have owned both - dogs produced by the top breeder of its breed living in a kennel and having staff wait on them hand and foot. ... They lived in one of the most expensive zip codes in NJ (less than an hour away from NYC). The building and the attached home was as if ready for House Beautiful - an American version of a English Country Estate...


This example illustrates my point. Unless one has seen the setup, spreading hearsay against a particular show breeder in an attempt to paint them as a puppy mill is _very different_ from having an opinion you're entitled to that how they do it sucks to your values. 

As I said earlier, I know of nearly ten show breeders who do it humanely with staff and the other criteria I mentioned earlier. I'd love to say who they are, but they don't need the grief from those who might try to ruin their reputations because of philosophical differences. 

Many of have already had a taste of that from the *adopt-only extremists* when we walk our poodles, and some stranger lectures us that we should have gotten a dog from a shelter and how they'd like to see purebreds eliminated. 

If I were looking for a 3rd poodle, there's no way I'd turn down an 8 or 10 week old puppy that was whelped in humane setting and whose champion parents are the top of the breed similar to what Moni described. 




Mfmst said:


> ... For some reason, special use breeders, for hunting or herding skate away. Exempt. So are they or aren’t they, commercial breeders under California Law? ...


Don't know, but I had thought of the herding and hunting poodles too. As hard working dogs who may do this every day, daily bathing and grooming would be next to impossible for most, so my best guess is many sleep in the hay at night in a barn and then are up early to work along their owners as assistant animals, so to speak. As a result, they are probably classified differently based on county and state. 

If I were looking for a herding dog for my imaginary livestock, however, I'd get an Aussie. 

For a Gun/duck dog, these would be my picks:

​
Poodle are great for this too and made #7 of the best dogs for duck & waterfowl hunting. 

*If* I did agility, I wouldn't be against buying a young pup from a breeder that specialized in duck hunting and kept the parents in an nicely designed and humane exterior building (or attachment to the house) at night. Why? Because I know his/her poodles were active and had lots of social contact during the day when working. Those puppies would likely excel in agility or other high energy sport because that's what they were bred for.

But most of us, including me, simply want a nice, well-bred, home-raised poodle puppy. I've said this from the start, but I also respect the good breeders who do it humanely, but differently.


----------



## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I find it interesting that it is seen as a negative to have multiple colors. In my other breed it's somewhat frowned upon to breed for color at all, so it's not unusual to have a variety of colors in one litter. Color inheritance is much less complicated in mastiffs than poodles though!


----------



## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

"If I did agility, I wouldn't be against buying a young pup from a breeder that specialized in duck hunting and kept the parents in an nicely designed and humane exterior building (or attachment to the house) at night. Why? Because I know his/her poodles were active and had lots of social contact during the day when working. Those puppies would likely excel in agility or other high energy sport because that's what they were bred for."

I do ALL kinds of performance with my dogs, especially agility, but also obedience, rally, barn hunt, etc. and they are titled to upper levels in multiple venues and organizations (currently my older dog has 86 titles and the younger 31). I absolutely would not work with a breeder that kept so many breeding bitches that they had to have "house" dogs and "kennel" dogs. I have seen some breeders that keep what I think are excessive amounts of dogs rationalize this by saying they rotate the dogs so individual dogs get to spend some time in the house as well as the kennel, or that they bring the bitches in from the kennel when they whelp so they can socialize the puppies in the house. Sorry, that doesn't cut it for me. 

And it is certainly not necessary to get a good performance prospect from a breeder that breeds from hunting lines... Both my dogs come from generations of breed champions with very little performance in their backgrounds. But all of my breeder's dogs, bitches and studs, live in the house as pets as well, where they receive plenty of attention and social contact, which they would not receive living in a kennel, even for part of the time.


----------



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Geez, Eclipse, I never said it was "necessary to get a good performance prospect from a breeder that breeds from hunting lines." You're right. 

However I do think that poodle pups from a long generational line of high energy, athletic, hunting, herding, or sled poodles have the genetic odds stacked in their favor to do that job extremely well since that's what they specifically were bred for. 

Otherwise I thought I made it abundantly clear that my preference is for home raised puppies, and that a poodle wouldn't be my choice of dog for one of those occupations anyway.


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I only mentioned that exemption for “special use” because it was in the regs. I can’t see very many poodle breeders in Texas making that claim. There was probably a rancher/hunting lobby that snuck it in. I looked at the Louter Creek website, premiere breeders of hunting poodles, and more recently conformation champions. The puppies are all ‘handled by family members’, it doesn’t specifically say they live with them. Maybe they do. I hope so.


----------



## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I think there are a lot of different ways to manage a breeding program, and the website doesn’t always paint the whole picture.

For example, My trainer breeds Aussies and has somewhere in the range of 15-16 dogs now. These dogs have an incredible life. They spend the day at the agility facility in a separate room in crates, taken out in between classes to train and run. At night, all of them are taken to the house, where they spend the night amidst the family. The house is on the same property, in a rural area.

My point is that someone looking from the outside would question how that many dogs are family pets, but believe me, they are. And very lucky family pets, but also heavily titled in agility and herding. 

Guardian homes are another way to manage a larger number of dogs. Gracie’s mom was in a guardian home, and very clearly a family pet. The woman also owned Gracie’s grandmother (14 and spayed) and a half sister who was four and still being bred. Gracie’s mom just turned seven, and this was her 
last litter. From the breeders website, you see a lot of dogs, but this is where Gracie’s mom lived, here she is with her mother (Gracie’s grandmother). 

https://www.poodlebreeders.com/LNL/LNLphotos/away/splendaminnie.jpg

High volume, unethical breeding is horrible, that goes without saying. But there are a lot of ways to manage a breeding program,, and I think we need to be careful when publicly denouncing a breeder that we have all the facts. It’s often their life’s work. 

If they’re horrible, yes, sing it from the rooftops, but just because I don’t want 15 dogs in my house, doesn’t mean someone else can’t do it wonderfully.


----------

