# Need help. My very expensive toy poodles ears dont look right



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I agree, those are not poodles ears. She might be mixed with another breed. Expensive doesn’t always mean ethical, especially in this pandemic age. She looks a little scared but definitely cute !


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Hmm. I agree her ears are not normal for a toy poodle. But when you say an expensive dog breeder... well expensive doesn't mean reputable.

A reputable breeder has all AKC or UKC registered dogs, completes OFA recommended health testing (patellar luxation, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, and eye exam), and breeds for correct conformation according to the poodle standard. A very good breeder will have dogs titled in conformation or other companion titles to demonstrate structure and temperament. These breeders typically charge $2500-3000 for toy poodles. They spend a lot of time vetting potential homes and are particular about which homes puppies are paired with.

Disreputable breeders don't do health testing and don't breed to the standard because they don't care about titling their dogs. They tend to have puppies available on demand and don't do waitlists. They'll often charge $4-5k (but can be much lower) because they know people will pay a lot more when they're impulse buying and looking for a puppy to bring home immediately. Because these breeders aren't breeding dogs for correct conformation and structure, they don't care what the ears look like or how long the legs are or what the tailset is. Their main objective is to produce cute puppies in a high quantity for sale. So dogs from them look adorable as puppies but don't usually grow up to look like the breed standard. If their dogs are unregistered (or even if they are) there is a high chance they aren't purebred poodles.

So, since I don't know what breeder she is from, I am wondering if we're looking at the second case. If you gave more info on the breeder or their name, I'd be able to give more input.

If I'm right, then I would just treat this as a lesson learned and love your little girl for who she is no matter what her ears look like. They're part of her personality and there are many more important things about your dog than what shape her ears are.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Did the breeder provide you with AKC registration papers? I agree with your assessment. The ear is weird. Normally upright earred dogs start with floppy ears, and the ears stick up once the cartilage strengthens enough to hold the ear upright. It doesn't work the other way round, with upright ears reverting to floppy. My guess would be a cross with a long haired chihuahua.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oh the cuteness! I do not believe she is pure poodle. Maybe some papillon? Or pomeranian? Or chihuahua? Or all of the above?  

Have you tried searching the breeder’s name here on Poodle Forum?


----------



## HollyM (Apr 28, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> Hmm. I agree her ears are not normal for a toy poodle. But when you say an expensive dog breeder... well expensive doesn't mean reputable.
> 
> A reputable breeder has all AKC or UKC registered dogs, completes OFA recommended health testing (patellar luxation, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, and eye exam), and breeds for correct conformation according to the poodle standard. A very good breeder will have dogs titled in conformation or other companion titles to demonstrate structure and temperament. These breeders typically charge $2500-3000 for toy poodles. They spend a lot of time vetting potential homes and are particular about which homes puppies are paired with.
> 
> ...


Well, it's not about loving or not loving our dog. She is part of family now. I bought her from a place that even has an on site vet that checks them out for all health defects. She is UKC I believe and was 2500 dollars. With taxes because we bought her from a place that sells them for breeders, the cost was close to 3,000.
That's why I'm trying to see from other poodle lovers if I'm in left field with these ears. And I will be in touch with breeder to get money back or at least partial money back if she is not full poodle. Since that's what we paid for


----------



## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

Hi Holly, and welcome to poodle forum.

Im not sure if you’re concern about her ears is if you’re concerned she’s not purebred or if it’s just abnormal for a poodle. From the face and what looks to be proper leg length, your puppy looks to be a poodle to me. It’s hard to tell without a pic of her full body standing in profile view. Her ears are not normal poodle ears though. It’s a fault that can be found in poodles who aren’t well bred, called flying ears. 
Poodle ears don’t require any hair to help weigh them down if proper poodle ears. Your breeder was being deceiving to tell you that.

She’s still cute and I hope she continues to bea happy and healthy girl.


----------



## HollyM (Apr 28, 2021)

cowpony said:


> Did the breeder provide you with AKC registration papers? I agree with your assessment. The ear is weird. Normally upright earred dogs start with floppy ears, and the ears stick up once the cartilage strengthens enough to hold the ear upright. It doesn't work the other way round, with upright ears reverting to floppy. My guess would be a cross with a long haired chihuahua.


That's what I thought! Part chihuahua


----------



## HollyM (Apr 28, 2021)

Porkchop said:


> Hi Holly, and welcome to poodle forum.
> 
> Im not sure if you’re concern about her ears is if you’re concerned she’s not purebred or if it’s just abnormal for a poodle. From the face and what looks to be proper leg length, your puppy looks to be a poodle to me. It’s hard to tell without a pic of her full body standing in profile view. Her ears are not normal poodle ears though. It’s a fault that can be found in poodles who aren’t well bred, called flying ears.
> Poodle ears don’t require any hair to help weigh them down if proper poodle ears. Your breeder was being deceiving to tell you that.
> ...


Thank you! Yes, I didn't like that answer either. My concern if she is purebred - since that is what we paid for.


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

HollyM said:


> Well, it's not about loving or not loving our dog. She is part of family now. I bought her from a place that even has an on site vet that checks them out for all health defects. She is UKC I believe and was 2500 dollars. With taxes because we bought her from a place that sells them for breeders, the cost was close to 3,000.
> That's why I'm trying to see from other poodle lovers if I'm in left field with these ears. And I will be in touch with breeder to get money back or at least partial money back if she is not full poodle. Since that's what we paid for


Ahhh... well puppies purchased from stores or middlemen like this are all generally from puppy mills. They are expensive because they are sold on demand, but not because they are well bred or from healthy parents. A vet cannot tell the dog's chances of developing orthopedic or genetic disease as they age. They can only say whether the puppy is physically healthy at the moment. You may want to check what registration she has. Many puppies sold from businesses like this are registered with CKC (continental kennel club not canadian kennel club) which is basically a fake registry that will register anything.

I'm not sure there's anything you can do at this point. You could have her genetically tested to see if it shows she is mix breed, but that is not a guarantee you will get any money back. I'd check your contract and see if it says anything about pure breed.


----------



## HollyM (Apr 28, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> Ahhh... well puppies purchased from stores or middlemen like this are all generally from puppy mills. They are expensive because they are sold on demand, but not because they are well bred or from healthy parents. A vet cannot tell the dog's chances of developing orthopedic or genetic disease as they age. They can only say whether the puppy is physically healthy at the moment. You may want to check what registration she has. Many puppies sold from businesses like this are registered with CKC (continental kennel club not canadian kennel club) which is basically a fake registry that will register anything.


I just looked, it is ICA. International Canine Association


----------



## HollyM (Apr 28, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Oh the cuteness! I do not believe she is pure poodle. Maybe some papillon? Or pomeranian? Or chihuahua? Or all of the above?
> 
> Have you tried searching the breeder’s name here on Poodle Forum?


No but I will try to. Thank you for your help!


----------



## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

IF you have a contract with the breeder, read it carefully.


----------



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

International Canine Association isn't really considered a reputable registry. It's an industry registry, on par with the Continental Kennel Club and the American Pet Registry, Inc., that were originally set up to let high-volume commercial breeders get around AKC rules regarding Limited Registration and DNA requirements for Frequently Used Sires.

That aside, she's cute.


----------



## HollyM (Apr 28, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> Hmm. I agree her ears are not normal for a toy poodle. But when you say an expensive dog breeder... well expensive doesn't mean reputable.
> 
> A reputable breeder has all AKC or UKC registered dogs, completes OFA recommended health testing (patellar luxation, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, and eye exam), and breeds for correct conformation according to the poodle standard. A very good breeder will have dogs titled in conformation or other companion titles to demonstrate structure and temperament. These breeders typically charge $2500-3000 for toy poodles. They spend a lot of time vetting potential homes and are particular about which homes puppies are paired with.
> 
> ...





TeamHellhound said:


> International Canine Association isn't really considered a reputable registry. It's an industry registry, on par with the Continental Kennel Club and the American Pet Registry, Inc., that were originally set up to let high-volume commercial breeders get around AKC rules regarding Limited Registration and DNA requirements for Frequently Used Sires.
> 
> That aside, she's cute.


Thank you. Man, I wish I would have done a little more research. She's a great little dog, just don't want someone else buying from this place and not getting what they paid for.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

HollyM said:


> Thank you. Man, I wish I would have done a little more research. She's a great little dog, just don't want someone else buying from this place and not getting what they paid for.


Many of us have had similar experiences. Live and learn and share your hard-won wisdom. For me it’s all about ensuring we don’t inadvertently contribute to the future suffering of any dogs or puppies.


----------



## Piper 2020 (Aug 16, 2020)

Regardless, she is adorable! Her ears make her unique.


----------



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

A few other thoughts. A good groomer can minimize the flying nun look a bit. I think the key would be to not do a shag cut on the ears. Instead, let the hair keep growing with the goal of the hairs on the top and middle portion of each ear growing to the bottom part of each ear, then trimming only the bottom.










If you're really mad or curious, buy a Breed & Health Kit from Embark (usually on sale for $159). It uses saliva swabs which you mail back to them, and will test for which breeds are in her ancestry. If not all poodle, you then have proof, because our opinions won't hold water with the breeder or small claims court. Keep in mind that even with proof, at best the breeder might offer to refund your money but only if you give back the dog, which she will likely then sell again as a poodle.

Since you like this little girl and consider her part of the family, the more important part of the delux Embark kit is it will rule out _testable, inheritable DNA genetic disorders_. If it turns out that she's a carrier for one or more conditions, _depending on_ which one(s), she won't ever develop that disorder. If two carriers breed, however, some of the pups are usually affected.

If one or more of her tests comes back that she's listed as 'affected', then at some point she will develop that disorder. This happens when dog inherits a copy of the same faulty gene from each parent. In that case you would want to notify the breeder, decide if you want to pursue a full or partial refund, and get pet health insurance. The better odds are, however, she won't test as being _affected_ of anything, but it will give you a peace of mind, or the need for a plan.

The next time you see your vet, have them check her out for something called Patellar Luxation. This is a quick, manual exam of her knees, also known as the patellas. Hopefully this won't be a problem. If so let us know.

Good luck.


----------



## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

If you are really curious, you can embark her.


----------



## Green Bean (Apr 23, 2020)

Goodness those ears are incredible 😂 she is absolutely adorable. I've seen 'flying ears' on toys before but not sure i've ever seen them quite so ginormous 💀 i think one of those embark tests would be the best way to find out- if i had to guess i'd say there was some papillon or powderpuff crested in her.

I'm sorry you seem to have been swindled by a bad breeder, but congratulations nonetheless on the extremely cute pup 🥰


----------



## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I am sorry this happened to you, and I am hoping the breeder will be held accountable. I just have to say how adorable your puppy is! I've had many poodle mixes in my life, and while I would never go that route again, I loved all of them. But yes, I can understand being upset given what you paid.


----------



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

If you want, you could probably tape her ears to help them lay flatter. This shows one method, which is probably the easiest one that I've seen. http://www.6stardanes.com/ears.html You would probably need to have her ears clipped with a #10 bade, though, to keep the hair from getting caught in the tape.


----------



## HollyM (Apr 28, 2021)

Vita said:


> A few other thoughts. A good groomer can minimize the flying nun look a bit. I think the key would be to not do a shag cut on the ears. Instead, let the hair keep growing with the goal of the hairs on the top and middle portion of each ear growing to the bottom part of each ear, then trimming only the bottom.
> 
> View attachment 476140
> 
> ...


Thank you so much


----------



## HollyM (Apr 28, 2021)

TeamHellhound said:


> If you want, you could probably tape her ears to help them lay flatter. This shows one method, which is probably the easiest one that I've seen. http://www.6stardanes.com/ears.html You would probably need to have her ears clipped with a #10 bade, though, to keep the hair from getting caught in the tape.


Oh no, I wouldn't tape her ears. That would probably be uncomfortable for her


----------



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

HollyM said:


> Oh no, I wouldn't tape her ears. That would probably be uncomfortable for her


It's up to you, of course, but lots of dogs have their ears taped (or posted, if they are cropped) and don't seem bothered in the least.


----------



## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

I think she is adorable 🥰 
Did you buy her as a registered poodle? You are getting papers? 
she looks like a Toy poodle with a higher ear set. Is she teething? Do a DNA test.


----------



## Mjoy32 (Apr 30, 2021)

Honestly I hate to say it and its only my opinion but I think maybe there's a touch something else in your poodle? Even you admit you've never seen ears like that and I am not sure if I have ever heard of wait until the hair grows in... Here's a picture I found online of a papillion poodle mix...


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

HollyM said:


> Oh no, I wouldn't tape her ears. That would probably be uncomfortable for her


A silver lining in all this is that she's probably going to be less prone to ear infections, as the erect ears will allow better airflow into the ear canal.


----------



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

cowpony said:


> A silver lining in all this is that she's probably going to be less prone to ear infections, as the erect ears will allow better airflow into the ear canal.


Maybe, maybe not. My GSD, with her naturally upright ears, has had more ear infections than all my other dogs combined.


----------



## buddyrose (Jul 27, 2011)

HollyM said:


> I just looked, it is ICA. International Canine Association


Your adorable dog does look like a mix breed, not pure poodle. But I'm NOT an expert on any of this.... it's just my opinion. There are many Vets who are very knowledgeable and could help determine this.

When I got my Tpoo, I was given the AKC lineage paperwork. Look at this page on the AKC website and the FAQs. Lots of good information here:
https://www.apps.akc.org/apps/contact/answer_center/faq_findabreeder.cfm#:~:text=Breeders can list AKC-registered litters on the AKC web,assist you in your search.

Yes, doing the research prior to getting a pet is important especially when you're not simply looking for an adorable Mutt. That's a lesson many of us also had to learn! You're not alone.

This is off the internet explaining how the ICA differs from the AKC:
What's the *difference between* the *ICA* (International Canine Association) and the *AKC* (American Kennel Club)? ...
Kennel clubs are pure bred dog registries in which the *dogs must have documented lineage*.
Whereas, the International Canine Association (*ICA*) allows dogs to be *registered who are without documented lineage*.

And since she does look like a ChiPoo to me here's a site about ChiPoos. I bet she's an amazing little dog.








Chipoo Dog Breed Health, Grooming, Feeding, Temperament and Puppies - PetGuide


A mix of Poodle and Chihuahua, the Chipoo is an energetic, friendly pup, who makes a great companion dog and loves to be part of a family environment.




www.petguide.com


----------



## buddyrose (Jul 27, 2011)

TeamHellhound said:


> It's up to you, of course, but lots of dogs have their ears taped (or posted, if they are cropped) and don't seem bothered in the least.


It's falling out of favor except with the AKC whose primary goal is preserving a breed's look. Obviously there are pros and cons to be found all over the internet. 

From the AVMA:
The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) policy is that they "oppose ear cropping and tail docking of dogs when done solely for cosmetic purposes."2 Their policy has been in place since 1999 and was affirmed as recently as 2012 when the AVMA added that they “encourage the elimination of ear cropping and tail docking from breed standards”. (AMVA, nd)

and:
*Is it ethical to tape a dog's ears?*
When we look at the evidence, there is little to support the idea of *ethically taping a dog's ears*. Unless the dog has a pre-existing medical problem, letting their ears develop naturally will benefit the dog greatly. It will allow them to communicate properly with others.

If you're not purchasing an animal to show and it's role is family pet, why do anything that's possibly painful? I wouldn't.


----------



## Piper 2020 (Aug 16, 2020)

Sheltie ears are supposed to tip over. When Alex was a pup, one ear tipped and one stood straight up. The vet taped her ears for 2 weeks. She didn't seem to notice. When the tape came off, both ears stood straight up. She was happy with this and so was I.


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Personally I see no ethical problems with taping. It's not painful when done properly. I'd probably tape if I had a breed like Chinese Crested. I do not see where there is any benefit to a floppy ear developing vs a prick ear. Prick ears are the most functional for general dogs as proven by evolution, though specific dog jobs may benefit from a drop ear (like hounds). Of course I love my poodle's tag ears to death! And perhaps for hunting dogs there are benefits to tag ears. But I'm not going to argue that a prick ear wouldn't also have benefits. I see it as a harmless cosmetic thing for those who tape.


----------



## 5girls1guy&apoodle (Jun 12, 2016)

Your dog is adorable! I think she looks like she could be mixed, but oh my I wouldn’t fix the ears unless it was gonna be a health problem. She is so cute and unique. I am sorry you got swindled though. I wish people could just be honest and do everything ethically, but that’s not how the world works. Seriously though she is precious, even if she isn’t pure bred or just badly bred. Enjoy her and do more research next time. She honestly gave me the biggest smile! You must smile so often now.


----------

