# Prong collar



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm mostly against them for three reasons:

People often resort to them as a shortcut to training proper leash manners. The shortcuts in training the dog often go along with other shortcuts in fitting the collar and using the collar for appropriate corrections. It's not really fair for the dog to get pronged due to the handler taking shortcuts.
There's a difference between pulling and leash reactivity. You can correct pulling without resorting to a prong collar, while leash reactivity may get worse. Pulling means the dog is routinely strolling along going at his speed, not yours, paying attention to the things that interest him and dragging you around to get a better sniff. He's just being rude. Leash reactivity is when the dog that has been paying attention to you gets amped up by something he encounters and loses his mind. You can, and should, train a rude dog to stop pulling without needing a prong collar. Reactive dogs are much harder to manage because their brain is out of gear. They have lost the capacity to reason, "I was comfortable until I started straining against my leash, now I have this thing jabbing me in the neck, maybe I'll feel better if I let up the pressure." Instead their logic is something like, " Squirrel. Ow! That hurts! Squirrel is getting away! WTF is biting my neck? I can't see it. Ow! Oh, there goes the squirrel. WHAT IS BITING ME? " The dog is learning nothing by getting poked and might actually start to panic.
Some prong collars have poor joints and will come uncoupled when twisted at just the wrong angle. That leaves you with a loose dog, probably at the worst possible time.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I have used prong collars, better name pinch collars for over 40 years. I prefer them over a flat collar. Flat collars actually do more damage as they choke the dog when they pull and damage the trachea. With a pinch collar the dog may pull one of two times and it corrects itself. You do NOT yank or snap it. Now that being said I also like a good fitting harness with a front clip. I think with a young puppy or for general walking I would just use a harness and allow them to jump and be curious. For training purpose I would use the pinch collar. I think there is a good balance one can do. Pinch collars should Not jab a dogs neck they should just tighten and let up when the dogs backs off. Also yes some poorly made cheap prong collars can come undone, and can have poorly made ends, they should be rounded tips. So you need to know how to properly purchase . All training tools, which a pinch collar is have their purpose, however you should be educated on the proper use of any of them. Now since having a poodle I don't really see all that much of a necessity to use a pinch collar on them. When I had rottweilers, they were very heavy, thick necked dogs, poodles necks are not. I do use one when I walk in my neighborhood, but I am older now and can't risk falling should my dog have a sudden loss of mind.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I think prong collars can be a valid tool in certain circumstances, but like cowpony said I often see them used in place of training.
I think they should never be used on a dog younger than 6 months, and preferably over 9 months. The dog has to have already 'learned how to learn' iykwim. They need to be introduced correctly (I have seen this called "pressure training"). They need to be fitted properly and the handler needs to be trained on how to use it properly.
I don't think they are the correct tool for every dog. I would not use one of Raffi, he is a classic sensitive poodle. I actually had great success using a vibrate-only training collar (on a low setting) for him. Again this was only used for proofing and distance work, he already had a solid foundation using positive reinforcement.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

This is a valid point, _The dog has to have already 'learned how to learn. _You can't just slap them on and all your troubles are gone. The dog as well as his owner has to be able to use their brain. There is a lot to be said about positive training and having your dog want to work for you. It takes longer but is good for poodles. Every dog is different as we are so I don't think one can say they are good or bad. Your average JQP probably should not use a pinch collar you must know your dog.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Mufar42 said:


> I have used prong collars, better name pinch collars for over 40 years. I prefer them over a flat collar. Flat collars actually do more damage as they choke the dog when they pull and damage the trachea. With a pinch collar the dog may pull one of two times and it corrects itself. You do NOT yank or snap it. Now that being said I also like a good fitting harness with a front clip. I think with a young puppy or for general walking I would just use a harness and allow them to jump and be curious. For training purpose I would use the pinch collar. I think there is a good balance one can do. Pinch collars should Not jab a dogs neck they should just tighten and let up when the dogs backs off. Also yes some poorly made cheap prong collars can come undone, and can have poorly made ends, they should be rounded tips. So you need to know how to properly purchase . All training tools, which a pinch collar is have their purpose, however you should be educated on the proper use of any of them. Now since having a poodle I don't really see all that much of a necessity to use a pinch collar on them. When I had rottweilers, they were very heavy, thick necked dogs, poodles necks are not. I do use one when I walk in my neighborhood, but I am older now and can't risk falling should my dog have a sudden loss of mind.


As I was writing my post, I was thinking that a well bred temperamentally stable Rottweiler is a dog where a prong collar might be an appropriate training tool. Rotties were bred to be pulling dogs. 
Also, as you observe, there is a benefit to the martingale action of a prong collar. I often walk Pogo using a wide martingale, as it distributes the pulling pressure, and he can't slip his collar. Some of my earlier dogs were masters of ducking out of a standard flat collar.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I use a prong collar for Annie, and also our last 185 lb St. Bernard.

I agree with the points above. I would not use one on a dog under 6 months, preferably 9 months, who does not already know good leash manners.

I use mine because Annie goes nuts for squirrels and I cant control her at that point. She finds head collars adversive to the point that she avoids me if she sees one in my hand, but doesnt mind the prong collar and comes running when she hears it jingle. Her leash manners are also poorer on a prong than a flat collar, except for when there are squirrels. This is training error on my part. A slight tug on a flat collar quickly become stoo much, so I redirect, a slight tug on a prong collar does not, so she sometimes just barely pulls because I don't correct her. Basically, the prong collar makes me lazy.

Annie is pretty sensitive - if I used a prong for anything lower value then a walk she would probably shut down on me. Or if I had used it when she was a puppy. 

A few rules I follow include always switching from prong to flat collar to greet people or dogs to avoid an inadvertant correction, I dont have issues with her in busy/crowded areas so I dont use it there, never ever leaving it on her when not walking, dont use it for fear based reactivity (I use it for her prey drive based, excitement based reactivity) and no deliberate pulling. Never ever hold tension on it either, quick tiny pull (think one finger flex), immediate release. No leaving tension on the collar, that's when they pop off or the dog becomes accustomed, or they injure the dog.

If you choose to use one, I would suggest having someone show you how to use one properly and fit it and make sure they are quite gentle. Some prong collar users are vicious, and that's not what you want.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

Mufar42 said:


> I have used prong collars, better name pinch collars for over 40 years. I prefer them over a flat collar. Flat collars actually do more damage as they choke the dog when they pull and damage the trachea. With a pinch collar the dog may pull one of two times and it corrects itself. You do NOT yank or snap it. Now that being said I also like a good fitting harness with a front clip. I think with a young puppy or for general walking I would just use a harness and allow them to jump and be curious. For training purpose I would use the pinch collar. I think there is a good balance one can do. Pinch collars should Not jab a dogs neck they should just tighten and let up when the dogs backs off. Also yes some poorly made cheap prong collars can come undone, and can have poorly made ends, they should be rounded tips. So you need to know how to properly purchase . All training tools, which a pinch collar is have their purpose, however you should be educated on the proper use of any of them. Now since having a poodle I don't really see all that much of a necessity to use a pinch collar on them. When I had rottweilers, they were very heavy, thick necked dogs, poodles necks are not. I do use one when I walk in my neighborhood, but I am older now and can't risk falling should my dog have a sudden loss of mind.


Agree! I won’t repeat what you said and will add our experience. Bobby is our second dog that we have trained with a prong collar. 
We really didn’t want to use a prong collar with Bobby but for safety reasons we starting using one. We started using it when he turned a year due to pulling and after me falling twice with him and losing my grip it became a safety issue for both of us. He walked fairly well as a young pup using a harness but then
adolescence hit.😉
Winters are snowy and icy where we live so pulling really is not an option for this older lady. Living in a high dog traffic, full of many distractions, loose leash dogs being the worst, kind of neighborhood, we had to figure out winter walking. We used a regular harness when he was younger then went to a no pull harness. I know a lot of people like them but we don’t like the gentle leader so that wasn’t an option for us. Anyway, the no pull harness helped, for sure, but I felt like basically, only minimally managed the pulling. I also felt I had a harder time communicating to my dog. I think I can communicate way better with a flat collar, martingale or prong. Just the slightest movement or the gentlest of what I would call a collar nudge is all I need. I’m not jerking or pulling him to tell him what I want. A flat buckle wasn’t an option during this time and the soft martingale didn’t work either during these heavy duty pulling months. So, reluctantly I got a good quality prong, and that, along with lots of treats and good, happy positive training really trained him quickly. It was a huge turnaround in his training and because he was walking so well I felt we could both relax and focus on other aspects of training rather than just managing the pulling and getting frustrated. 
I do think the ideal is to wean off the prong collar or any training collar or harness if possible but for some dogs that may not be possible. We are transitioning to his flat buckle collar and making really good progress. I believe training is a process and sometimes a long process, and while ideally I didn’t want to use the prong, the ability to get from point A to point B in Bobby’s ability to walk well and heel safely, especially on treacherous icy roads and sidewalks needed to happen then and not months later. He responded beautifully to the prong and trained like a champ and we are getting to a point where don’t need it much and soon, hopefully not at all. 
A prong isn’t for all dogs and can certainly backfire if misused so education in using it properly, fitting it properly and not ever using it in frustration or anger is critical but for some dogs, it’s an absolute positive game changer. Also, I always use a backup collar no matter what kind of collar or harness I use because Bobby has escaped. This is especially important with a prong. I use a thin martingale paired with whatever collar I am using with a separate clip for each collar. That’s just our thing. 😉


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## Teddy’s mom (May 20, 2020)

The class me and teddy r in requires them. Trainer let owners pick what kind. So I purchased one with the black rubber ends to..well cause it looked more gentle. Teddy did not do well with the collar on. Trainer assured me he will get better and I need to practice with teddy while using it. Teddy shut down at the class and refused treats. I felt awful. Last thing I wanna b is mean. I’m more of a lover and not a fighter. But even with my kids I love them but they know boundaries and Teddy needs to learn as well. I struggled big time with the collar. 😞


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

My understanding is the ones with rubber aren’t the best, especially with longer haired dogs and even more so curly dogs. The rubber actually pulls on the hair. A well made prong has nice smooth, rounded tips that easily move and don’t get caught in the hair. Was this Teddy’s first class? Like anything new, it needs to be introduced gradually and given a positive introduction and at home would be best. How old is Teddy? I think I remember from a previous post, correct me if I’m wrong, that he is young and just starting classes. Did they tell you why? It doesn’t seem that a prong should be required. If he is young a good harness would be way better. I think there could be some possible, very real negative consequences in this situation. I would definitely talk to the trainer on this one.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Teddy’s mom said:


> The class me and teddy r in requires them. Trainer let owners pick what kind. So I purchased one with the black rubber ends to..well cause it looked more gentle. Teddy did not do well with the collar on. Trainer assured me he will get better and I need to practice with teddy while using it. Teddy shut down at the class and refused treats. I felt awful. Last thing I wanna b is mean. I’m more of a lover and not a fighter. But even with my kids I love them but they know boundaries and Teddy needs to learn as well. I struggled big time with the collar. 😞


I would definitely never bring a poodle to class that requires a prong collar. To me, that's the sign of an old fashioned trainer who doesnt know how to convince a dog rather than force it. I know Annie would have shut right down in that situation in a beginner class with a prong. 

At the recommendation of one of the users here, I use a fine prong collar with small links that spread the correction out better. 

Personally- I consider long term relaiance on a prong the sign of a poor trainer. I use one, but I am not a professional! 

What are they even doing with a prong in a beginner class?!


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Teddy’s mom said:


> The class me and teddy r in requires them. Trainer let owners pick what kind. So I purchased one with the black rubber ends to..well cause it looked more gentle. Teddy did not do well with the collar on. Trainer assured me he will get better and I need to practice with teddy while using it. Teddy shut down at the class and refused treats. I felt awful. Last thing I wanna b is mean. I’m more of a lover and not a fighter. But even with my kids I love them but they know boundaries and Teddy needs to learn as well. I struggled big time with the collar. 😞


With this and the out of control dogs in class... I would find a different trainer. He‘s going to break your dog. This ’trainer’ has no idea what he’s doing, and should not require prong collars for simple obedience training unless the dog is out of control otherwise, and he is working closely with the owner. What methods does he cite using? I’m guessing he has similar opinions to Cesar Millán? I’m sorry if I sound stern, or quick to judge... I’ve had to deal with this style of training my whole life, and have seen more dogs messed up by it than actually trained.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

I quite agree with the last two posts. I’m new on this forum and was a little hesitant that I would come across harsh. While I explained earlier in this thread what I feel about prong collars the situation with Teddy and his class is a whole different deal. My internal alarm bells went off when I read your post remembering your concerns in a previous post. I would not bring Teddy to this class.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I guess Iwill also add... animaltraining is highly unregulated. There are lots of shitty, dangerous trainers out there with outdated ideas, a one size fits all approach, who cant handle a poodle, but have great reviews from poorly informed owners who believe in the dominate your dog approach.

How do I know? One of my relatives is relatively highly regarded, very expensive, referral only dog trainer who uses a dominance based, aggressive/jerk and pull approach and well behaved but dead eyed dogs of her own, who you couldn't pay ME to let touch my dog again. A few minutes with with that trainer, practicing recall came close to ruining my relationship with my dog.

I guess what I should say is - anyone can learn to force a dog into obedience. What I want when I pay for classes is a trainer who is creative and can teach me to communicate better with my dog, so that out relationship improves and my dog learns to WANt to work with me, instead of works with me due to fear or coercion. I want a trainer that teaches me to train. 

It tool me quite a while to find a good trainer that I trusted- the opinions of the members here were really helpful and I was glad I waited


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

You can ruin a dog remarkably fast, especially a sensitive poodle. I would not return to that class. 

Let us know if you need help finding a more appropriate trainer for you and Teddy.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Teddy’s mom said:


> The class me and teddy r in requires them. Trainer let owners pick what kind. So I purchased one with the black rubber ends to..well cause it looked more gentle. Teddy did not do well with the collar on. Trainer assured me he will get better and I need to practice with teddy while using it. Teddy shut down at the class and refused treats. I felt awful. Last thing I wanna b is mean. I’m more of a lover and not a fighter. But even with my kids I love them but they know boundaries and Teddy needs to learn as well. I struggled big time with the collar. 😞


Eek.
No.
Danger, Will Robinson, Danger.

Teddy shutting down to the point where he won't accept treats pretty much tells you what you need to know. This is not the right learning environment for him. When I take my guys to training they happily hop out of the car and practically drag me into the building. The facility allows flat collars, harnesses, and martingales. It does not allow prong collars or choke chains.


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## Teddy’s mom (May 20, 2020)

Class was/is almost $200 no refunds 🤦🏻‍♀️


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Teddy’s mom said:


> Class was/is almost $200 no refunds 🤦🏻‍♀️


That stinks.  But think how much you could spend _after_ that class, trying to undo the damage. 

That's a big part of our trainer's business, helping people repair the damage done by aversive methods. And Teddy's showing you clearly that he is not comfortable....as is your gut.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Teddys mom have you discussed Teddy's reactions in class with the trainer? I once has a GSD that was the most difficult boy to train. We did class 1 two times before moving on. He was bored, yep it was all too simple for him and he had no interest in doing it. The trainer worked with us and mixed it up more to keep him on his toes. We didn't stay in the class for the entire class, we went outside, to another room back into the group. Eventually it all went well. The dog ended up as my best trained dog ever. I back then could walk into a crowded vet office put him in a down, say to him nose down and he would flatten his snout to the ground. People, dogs could all walk past him, over him, whatever. So don't give up, try a find what is turning him off. Not seeing the situation I can't say I feel your dog is being damaged because of the training, or a particular tool you are using to train with, 
you need to find the root of the problem and get him to be a happy boy who wants to train. Hopefully his trainer will have a sit down with you and discuss options. Now if the trainer isn't willing to work with you then yes, I would say they weren't a good trainer and I would just take him out of the class.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Teddy’s mom said:


> The class me and teddy r in requires them. Trainer let owners pick what kind. So I purchased one with the black rubber ends to..well cause it looked more gentle. Teddy did not do well with the collar on. Trainer assured me he will get better and I need to practice with teddy while using it. Teddy shut down at the class and refused treats. I felt awful. Last thing I wanna b is mean. I’m more of a lover and not a fighter. But even with my kids I love them but they know boundaries and Teddy needs to learn as well. I struggled big time with the collar. 😞


If I see a dog on a prong collar I immediately go to the other side of the road. It is obvious the handler has not trained the dog well.

If I were you I would not go to another class with that teacher. I hope you can find a good positive trainer.

One of the first trainers I went to ( highly recommended) used aversive techniques ( but not nearly as bad as a prong collar). It really upset me. I found the best positive trainer in a 300 mile area. After one session with her I quit the other trainer, even though I forfeited expensive group and private lessons. 

I am so grateful I did. My dog is now a service dog, awesome. He would have turned out an entirely different dog if I had stayed with that trainer.

I am so sorry I did not see your post when you first posted it to be able to say something sooner.

May you and your prescious poodle find a truly awesome trainer. Forget the money! It was a truly bad investment. We all make mistakes somewhere along the way. If we are intelligent we can admit it and move on. Blessings.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I also would have commented sooner if I had been able too but the hurricane/tropical storm that came up the east coast last week knocked me out of power and offline from Tuesday afternoon last week to Tuesday evening this week. That is where I know I will be parting company with some earlier posters.

I use pinch collars and often recommend them to people who I trust and with whom I have time to instruct on their proper use. No single tool is the correct tool for every single dog, but they are often very useful for many dogs. All three of our dogs have pinch collars that we use for various situations. Lily learned to do nice heeling with a pinch collar. She mostly does not wear it anymore, but earlier in the spring with COVID raging I used it a bit to remind her not to drag me around when we took walks on opposite sides of the street with my mom and her mpoo. She was desperate to get to my mom, but even we were distancing when we walked. I knew my mom wanted to spend time with me as best was possible and that my poodles were very excited to see her. The pinch collar settled Lily down after one week where I had it attached to her leash. After that I put it on but attached her leash to her flat buckle collar and now I have put it away again. Peeves is an incurable bunny, squirrel and cat chaser. Sometimes we see chickens on our street since several neighbors allow their birds to range. He knows not to chase with the pinch collar and I would rather take him for a walk than for his entire world to be our home and yard, which is what would happen if he didn't understand the pinch collar. 

Javelin loves his pinch collar because he has a strong positive association with it since me putting it on means we are going out to train. I call for him to come get dressed and he runs from wherever he is to sit and have me put it on. While we train there are times his leash is on the pinch and times he has no leash on. Really I just hook his leash to the pinch when we are heeling so he knows if he is out of position. He loves to heel and has the potential to be a no points off obedience heeler (if I can just not interfere with him with my crooked paths). His love of heeling and affinity for his pinch collar are the result of how I introduced it to him and how I have used it. He was over a year old when I first put a pinch collar on him and I made it looser than appropriate by adding a link. I never attached it to his leash for about a month. I taught him to understand how it would feel by gently pulling it a little bit taught while feeding him cookies and telling him he was a good boy. I have described in detail several times the method I use for introducing pinch collars to naive dogs here on PF. If you want to see the details search on other threads about pinch collars and I am sure you can find that information. The method I use with private pet clients when needed is the method Ian Dunbar described to me when I was at a workshop with him a number of years ago. He (and I agree with him) thinks that if you need a correcting tool and introduce and use it properly as a means of dealing with problem behaviors that might lead to a dog dying that the tool should be used. When his leash is attached to it I never ever have collar popped him, but I'm not a collar popper anyway. It has been a great tool for him along with things as innocuous as pieces of pvc gutters and pipe and moldings that also took work to introduce. He used to shy away from even a frame made from skinny pvc moldings but by teaching him how we were going to use them he has come to have great love even for those pieces of pvc. My private trainer was walking through the ring the other day to set up a landing strip for him and he tried to follow her just because she had molding strips with her. The point is that he has been taught about all sorts of tools and that things that might scare a dog can also be very high value to any well taught dog.

In my obedience classes the only tool I do not allow for novice handlers is an unlimited slip collar. Too many people jerk their dogs around with them, are too quick to not let pressure off until the dog is clearly in distress or even will use them to hang their dogs. I only allow people who I know to be experienced (even with a green dog) can use unlimited slip collars whether chains or nylon. A pinch collar is essentially a martingale collar. The critical points overall to me are: using the tool properly to the level of the dog and the handler; having good quality and properly fitted tools; having clear goals for fading the tool as training continues and making sure that the tool is in good condition. The only brand/style of pinch collar I use or recommend is this one (Herm Sprenger pinch collar with quick release) M Sprenger Quick Release Collar For both of my poodles I use ones with small size links. For the German Shepherd dog I have one with medium links. If the links are too big you will have a smaller number of them and it won't be flexible enough to give the proper level of correcting information to the dog.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> I also would have commented sooner if I had been able too but the hurricane/tropical storm that came up the east coast last week knocked me out of power and offline from Tuesday afternoon last week to Tuesday evening this week. That is where I know I will be parting company with some earlier posters.
> 
> I use pinch collars and often recommend them to people who I trust and with whom I have time to instruct on their proper use. No single tool is the correct tool for every single dog, but they are often very useful for many dogs. All three of our dogs have pinch collars that we use for various situations. Lily learned to do nice heeling with a pinch collar. She mostly does not wear it anymore, but earlier in the spring with COVID raging I used it a bit to remind her not to drag me around when we took walks on opposite sides of the street with my mom and her mpoo. She was desperate to get to my mom, but even we were distancing when we walked. I knew my mom wanted to spend time with me as best was possible and that my poodles were very excited to see her. The pinch collar settled Lily down after one week where I had it attached to her leash. After that I put it on but attached her leash to her flat buckle collar and now I have put it away again. Peeves is an incurable bunny, squirrel and cat chaser. Sometimes we see chickens on our street since several neighbors allow their birds to range. He knows not to chase with the pinch collar and I would rather take him for a walk than for his entire world to be our home and yard, which is what would happen if he didn't understand the pinch collar.
> 
> ...


Lily CD re - would you ever require pinch collars in a novice class?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Lily CD re - would you ever require pinch collars in a novice class?


ABSOLUTELY NOT! I only require no slip collars and always find myself telling people to have a proper leash. Lots of people think they need a much heavier leash than they need. Think Chihuahua on a 1" wide leather leash that weighs more than the dog! For a toy dog at most you need a 3'8" leash and for a spoo I find a half inch wide flat leash to be sufficient. With Lily and Javelin I now walk them and do on leash exercises with thin braided paracord leash (very light weight) and I take Lily in and out of rally trial rings with something akin to a leather boot lace (single strand) or a piece of paracord also single strand. The leash needs to be light enough to have some life in it so the dog feels it quickly when they run out of leash say when you halt and they don't. If the leash is too heavy the correcting information reaches the collar long after it can possibly mean anything. I also really prefer people to use flat or martingale collars over harnesses unless there is a respiratory tracheal collapse type of concern.

For Want of Poodle your question also harkens back to this terrible "trainer" who does require pinch collars but apparently doesn't explain why he does so, nor does he help people understand anything about how to introduce or use them properly. In any dog training you have to be fair to the dog and not assume they understand something they have not been taught. This guy's class doesn't sound like he does any of that. At the very least the OP should have been told before she coughed up her payment information such as the requirement for a pinch collar. I don't do that for my classes, nor do I ever walk into a new private client home and hand the people a pinch collar in exchange for $50 without them having expected me to do so.

This is going to seem unrelated to the current discussion but it is related in that it is about being fair to the dog in context of what it does or does not already clearly understand. In the last week or two I have been working on cleaning up aspects of Javelin's directed retrieve of a glove found in utility obedience. He clearly understands and loves the exercise. He will even take gloves off a chair and trot around with them (an extracurricular activity). That has made him prone to kill the glove and then shake it as he trots around on his indirect return to me. I want him to learn that he needs to make a clean pick up and a direct happy return to front. My private trainer suggested I back chain the parts of the exercise which we worked on together by putting out pvc strips to mark the direct return from where the pick up takes place and having him stand and face me with the glove in his mouth (in other words what he will do after he makes the clean pick up). He did great, no problem, totally understood. She told me to next have him stand facing away with the glove and let him make the turn then the come to sit in front. I thought he was redy for that and he just couldn't make any sense out of what I wanted him do do. As I tried to leave him he kept turning and following me. Since this was in the middle of our power outage from the tropical storm I was tired and I got mad at him and took the golve, balled it up and threw it at him (good thing I wasn't mad about a dumbbell exercise). We went over my problems when we had our private lesson yesterday and my trainer told me I had to teach him to stay at the pick up facing away and to break it down into tiny stages (sit facing away, me back up two steps and return to heel, treat and repeat until I can get to center ring from where eventually he will be directed to the glove; repeat for all 3 glove postiions; repeat with stand facing away then give him the glove and have him wait with it facing away). Bottom line I was terribly unfair to him last week and I am just lucky that he adores and trusts me enough to back him up for hard things that he forgave me instantly and to go on to happily doing something else I know he loves to reward him for his forgiveness. It takes work for a person and dog to build that kind of deep bond and to go back to the beginning of this thread a pinch collar without any decent teaching is a betrayal of that kind of relationship building. Since this was a one time thing I think Teddy will be just fine since his mom clearly loves him and wants to do the right thing.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> ...a pinch collar without any decent teaching is a betrayal of that kind of relationship building.


Powerful words! Amen!

It sounds like Teddy has found his way into a class that's just not appropriate for him. His human mentioned the class is populated with older, aggressive bully breeds. Teddy, on the other hand, is a sensitive, happy-go-lucky poodle puppy.

So prong collar aside, I'm not sure this trainer is looking out for the best interest of his canine students. Did he not do any sort of consultation or assessment first?

I'd personally ask for a refund.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

There is always the power of Yelp to convince him to refund her. I somehow missed the mention of a class full of older bully breed dogs. They probably could learn with proper use of pinch collars, but if the instructor is just relying on slapping the collar and and forging ahead then probably not. But at any rate not the right kind of class for Teddy and his mom.


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