# Neutering Age ? Help



## lizzy_8 (Mar 21, 2014)

Hi everyone, I haven't posted for a while as I am back at work full time but I have been reading your posts.
I am looking for advice or opinions as I have booked my boy in to be neutered next week and suddenly having cold feet. He is a Spoo and was 1 year old last week. 
Is this too early? 
He is great natured but full of energy and fun. Eats anything he can get hold of. Still plays a bit rough by teeth making contact with skin, although he seems to understand when I say no biting.
I would appreciate any input.

Thank you
lizzy_8


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

I think it is a perfect age, to neuter him. I got mine done at about the same age, 8-9 months and no issues have been seen. They are tiny toys though so they were full grown at that time. If you are really worried maybe wait 6 months and do it when he is 18 months old.


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## lizzy_8 (Mar 21, 2014)

Thank you. I'm probably worrying about nothing but I will speak to the vet on Monday before deciding. I had no concerns in the past with any of my minis but Olly is my first standard. Thank you again for your input.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'd wait until he's full grown...till his bones stop growing. If you're very careful about not letting him impregnate another dog and you don't have any real reason to neuter, maybe you'd decide not to do it at all. If you're a dog park visitor, you might have a problem with an intact male dog. I've heard some dog parks frown on that. But once it's done, it's done. So I encourage you to do your own research and then make a decision. But in my opinion, after doing a lot of research on the pros and cons health and behavior wise, I decided to leave my toy poodles intact. I have no behavioral problems associated with not being neutered. A lot of that is fallacy anyhow. But if you are going to neuter, I'd at least wait until he's completely finished growing and his growth plates close naturally. Here are a couple links you might like to read.

http://www.angryvet.com/neutering-and-behavior/

To neuter your dog or not? New studies change answer for some - The Denver Post


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## mom2m (Dec 24, 2014)

You might want to research zeutering. It's what we choose for Finn. There are some health risks related to neutering...here's a UC Davis research link:
Golden retriever study suggests neutering affects dog health :: UC Davis News & Information
(note: this research was done on golden retrievers). 

Finn was 2 when he joined our family. He did not have any negative behaviors that needed to be addressed by neutering. Zeutering is similar to a vasectomy, and he will have about 50% of hormone production through out his life. That should help protect against things like ACL tears (went through that with our first spoo). It may or may not be right for you and your dog, and the vet has to be trained in the procedure. No incision, no cone, fast recovery are some of the other (minor) pluses.


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## lizzy_8 (Mar 21, 2014)

Thank you all very much for the information and links. I am definately in two minds as I don't want to damage his bone development in any way. He is so good natured and his behaviour is just large puppy behaviour. I think I need to step up his training. I will have a chat with the vet on Monday and research more on the subject. Thank you again


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

My contract with my breeder requires neutering, but she advises to wait until 1 year. I want to have it done before he starts marking behavior which luckily, he has not started.


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## lizzy_8 (Mar 21, 2014)

Olly hasn't started marking yet either. He was 1 year old last week.. It didn't bother me when I got my mini boy done but I've never had a standard before and it's just niggling me a bit. I'm hoping the vet will reassure me . Thanks


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Im my experience most vets like to de-sex too early. They see too many unwanted puppies and they also like the cash.
Eric


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## lizzy_8 (Mar 21, 2014)

Hi, that's what worries me as when I called to book him in it was the receptionist I spoke to. They no doubt will check him over on the day but I expected to have a conversation with the vet re pros and cons. I will do that on Monday and decide from there. Thanks


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

You've gotten some great links and advice. Here's one more link. It provides an excellent summary of the health issues involved in the decision to spay/neuter.

Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs

Note that this addresses only health issues. Other issues like behavioral issues, avoiding unwanted pregnancies, possible problems managing an intact dog, requirements of dog parks and boarding facilities, etc. are also very important and may well drive this decision even more than the health issues.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

IMHO. There are a lot of good reasons for de-sexing a bitch at the right age (midway between 1st and second heat) There are very few good reasons for de-sexing a dog. But if done at all should be after full grown 2years plus.
Eric.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

peppersb said:


> You've gotten some great links and advice. Here's one more link. It provides an excellent summary of the health issues involved in the decision to spay/neuter.
> 
> Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
> 
> Note that this addresses only health issues. Other issues like behavioral issues, avoiding unwanted pregnancies, possible problems managing an intact dog, requirements of dog parks and boarding facilities, etc. are also very important and may well drive this decision even more than the health issues.


That's a terrific link Peppersb. Thanks for the good read. I read something similar quite some time ago and decided that I would leave my boys intact. My breeder doesn't care what I do but I do have a limited registration on Maurice and when we don't co own Matisse anymore, he'll also be on a limited registration. So he's protecting his name and lines. 

As far as marking, they mark outside and no more than any neutered dog I've had or known. They learned not to do that in the house, just the same way as potty training. I've had dogs that visited that were neutered mark in my house, which ticked me off, needless to say.

As most of these studies show, aggression and all the other propaganda about intact dogs' behavior problems is just not true. I have no marking indoors from my dogs. I caught one of them one time raising a leg on a chair and clapped my hands and rushed him outdoors. It's never happened since. And outside, my neutered dog marks more than my intact ones as a matter of fact. He really wants everyone to know he's the land baron around the area and the Poodles seem to be too busy trotting along to waste too much of their walking time on leg lifting. They do it a few times and that's it. lol.


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## lizzy_8 (Mar 21, 2014)

Thank you for another great link. I am definitely not going to rush it and from reading between the lines it seems to me that at 1 year old he still has a lot of developing to do. 
To be completely honest I was only having him done because in the uk it's the done thing. I have a high fence around my garden but he could still probably jump it although at the present time he is a bit afraid of his own shadow so I don't think he would try.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

ericwd9 said:


> Im my experience most vets like to de-sex too early. They see too many unwanted puppies and they also like the cash.
> Eric


This is so true. Probably for the majority of your average dog owners, it's a good idea to get them neutered/spayed early because a lot of people let their dogs roam or get out all the time. We certainly don't need more unwanted dogs languishing in shelters. But for people like us, who are really involved with their dogs, responsible about not letting them roam around the countryside, then that problem is out of the way. And roaming is the only behavior, apparently, that is more prevalent in intact male dogs. 

So in this country it's also, for decades been expected, assumed, pushed that everyone automatically neuters their puppies. It's the "right" thing to do and it goes together with their puppy shots and worming and a wellness exam. You can't let your vet push you into something because it may well be for money or the vet is behind the times....still in that same mind set that this is just something we do with little puppies. Some vets are behind the times in other areas too, like nutrition. In a lot of counties, (I think Norway was mentioned in one of those links) it's illegal to neuter unless there is a valid reason, just as they outlawed tail docking and ear cropping & de-clawing. I don't know that I think there should be a law. But it goes to show that it isn't something to take lightly and automatically neuter unless you have a good reason. And it's a good idea to research all you can first and read what the newest scientific research shows, albeit, sometimes studies aren't done very well. But over all, I think they're pretty indicative. 

And so, after going through everything I could, I asked myself....are my tiny little dogs going to roam? No, I have a fence and they couldn't care less about escaping. I am also working diligently on their recall. I am paranoid of birds of prey so if they're outside, I'm outside. They're on a leash when we go for walks except in this one big field where I'm training them on their off leash obedience a little bit but they have a long line dragging and they never get too far ahead. Anyhow, that is so unlikely that they'll impregnate a female. (They seem to be more interested in each other anyhow judging from the hump fest we've got going on here since Matisse's new hair do. lol) And as far as everything else behaviorally, I am not seeing anything in them that has anything to do with those hormones or that neutered dogs don't do. 

Aggression...the studies show that neutered dogs may be the ones that are more aggressive, if any. And with the Poodle breed, aggression is not much of a tendency anyhow. So, good that you're looking into it more. There was one thing....prostate health issues but not cancer that were more likely with intact dogs and some of those could be serious but they generally happen later in life. So, maybe down the road, like when they're 7 years old or something, it might not be a bad idea. I don't know....

But I must add, that neutering early is only one aspect of having a dog. There are more important things that people don't do for or with their dogs I think. Lots of people chain up their dogs all day, pay no attention to them, have too many dogs that they can't care for properly, dogs are abused and neglected. Or fed Science Diet. lol. So, whether someone decides to neuter early, neuter at all isn't all there is to good animal husbandry. There are more important things. I feel sorry for some of the dogs in my neighborhood. There are only a few of us who take our dogs for walks. These yards are small and there are some big dogs that I don't think ever get a chance to run or experience places besides their own back yard. It makes me sad.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Here's another really good link. This is a half hour lecture by a holistic vet, Dr. Karen Becker, on the topic of spay/neuter health issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enPCZA1WFKY


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Last week, I caught the tail end of a talk radio show whose host was interviewing two vets, a husband and wife, who own a local animal hospital. (In my defense, I don't listen to those, but my husband had tuned across this one on the car radio and came in to tell me about it.) The topic was spaying and neutering, and they were really high on it, advocating early and every dog. They dismissed chemical neutering as useless because it didn't address behavior issues, and, at least on the part of the show I heard, they never mentioned the adverse effects of either surgical procedure on future health. Sounded to me like the host was feeding them prearranged questions, so they wouldn't be taken by surprise. I had the phone in my hand, intending to be the caller who asked them an actual question, but the show ended. No way to know, of course, whether they're simply old school and haven't kept abreast of current findings, or if spaying and neutering makes up a big part of their income. I've printed off the article in pepperbs link for my own records and may send a copy to them, just for kicks and giggles.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

Mom2m, from the research I've done, it says that zeutering needs to be done by the age of 10 months... but it sounds like you had Finn zeutered when you got him at age 2. Could you help clarify this? I am thinking about having Pericles zeutered but would prefer waiting til he is well over 12 months... Many thanks.


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## Pella (Oct 7, 2014)

This is something I discussed with Lena's breeder when I picked her up, and she very strongly feels that waiting until after Lena has had one or two heats and then neutering is the way to go. She cited the health problems associated with neutering too young, and one of them was extra long limbs, which my last Poodle did indeed have! Lena will definitely get to grow up first. 

I'm curious if there are any zeutering equivalents for the girls? I'm guessing there aren't. 

Also, Lena had her 12 week distemper shot today, and when we showed up at the vet's office THEY WANTED TO KNOW IF SHE HAD BEEN SPAYED ALREADY!!!. AUGHHH!!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Never think that a vet does NOT know the pro's and cons of de-sexing and the age best to do this. They all know of the long bone problem (no so serious in dogs with short legs but quite serious with long legged poodles.) They know of the rinks of mammary cancer in intact bitches. As with testicular cancer in intact dogs. They also see and euthanase a lot of unwanted dogs. Their decisions are based on their knowledge and their budget. Few vets are unaware of the risks either way. Some are ill advised.
Eric.


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## mom2m (Dec 24, 2014)

Finn was zeutered at age 2 years and a couple of weeks. 

After losing our beloved Midnight at Thanksgiving, our house was just too quiet. After Christmas, but while our D was still home from college, I started to look for a new family member. It was important to us that our D participate in the discussion (Midnight was her poodle, she called Midnight her poodle sister). As I was searching, I found this forum (yea!). I also found Finn. He was a 2 year old looking for a "forever" home. His breeder had thought to show him, then breed him, but it wasn't working. He's a beautiful boy and we love him to pieces. He fit right into our family.

Part of the agreement with the breeder was the he be neutered. Actually, she planned to do this before we brought Finn home. But that time line would mean that Finn wouldn't come home to us until after our D left to go back to college. And we really wanted them to have that time together. The breeder kindly agreed to a contract that required us to neuter Finn within 2 weeks. That gave Finn and our D time together.

As I was researching, I read a lot of information out of UC Davis, including the information about early neutering. So when we took Finn to our vet we discussed all the options. Finn was clearly passed the age for early neutering to be a problem. But he also did not have any behavior problems. The zeutering procedure is less invasive, less painful and has some long term benefits. Our vet is very chatty (he talked to us for an hour). He likes to be current on techniques, etc. So it all worked out. He did tell us that zeutering an older pet is technically "off label", but assured us that it would have no ill effects. We trust this vet. He have used his office for years (I'll skip the details, this is already a novel). Every member of his staff cried with us when we lost Midnight. They had helped us battle an ACL tear, Pancreatitis, eye infections, etc. Every member of the staff came out to met Finn, they were so glad we had a new poodle family member. 

I hope all this answers your questions. If not, let me know....


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

marialydia said:


> Mom2m, from the research I've done, it says that zeutering needs to be done by the age of 10 months... but it sounds like you had Finn zeutered when you got him at age 2. Could you help clarify this? I am thinking about having Pericles zeutered but would prefer waiting til he is well over 12 months... Many thanks.


Blue was just a few days short of ten months when he was zeutered. The vet didn't seem to be concerned about age but did say there's a maximum testicle size (I think the measurement used is the diameter of the testicle) beyond which the procedure isn't possible.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

We recommend to our buyers that they neuter at 12-14 months. Gives the baby boys a chance to be all they can be and grow muscle and bulk.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Arreau, do you suggest the same 12-14 months for female buyers? I ask my vet questions just to see where they stand on all kind of issues, he suggested 8 months. I had already decided to wait until after Abbey's first heat to spay, as suggested by my breeder.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

No. We recommend eight months for the girls to avoid the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy. It is also because we have done a ton of reading, and even one heat increases the risk of mammary cancer. Most girls first heat happens between nine months and a year, so 8 months seems the wisest time to do it, in our opinion.


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## Sweetearlgrey (Mar 3, 2015)

I've done a lot of research suggesting that you should wait until a female has gone through her first heat cycle before you fix her. Its a bit controversial, I haven't made up my mind about the whole deal yet. :/


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