# A buyer in pain



## Keithsomething

=\\
thats just awful that a breeder would turn their back on something they produced

if it were me I'd try to get every dime back...because an auto immune disease is hereditary... 
just terrible

PM me the breeder Cherie?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Done Keith. I cannot imagine that knowing you sold a pup that was having problems before it was sold, then treating someone who has lost such a young pup so shabbily. I am furious for the suffering this woman and her husband are going through.


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## Poodle Lover

Does this woman has a contract with the breeder and what does the contract says?


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## Trillium

What a heart break. Losing a dog to an auto-immune disease is horrible. There are no words.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Poodle Lover said:


> Does this woman has a contract with the breeder and what does the contract says?


Knowing who the breeder is, I am sure it is a lot of mumbo jumbo. I am going to call her tomorrow and try and get more info and speak to her about Squeaky Wheel.


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## Fluffyspoos

PM the breeder to me as well? That's so sad


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## spoospirit

_Cherie, you can pm me the breeder's name too. Thank you.

I am so very sorry for her and her husband's loss. I know how very painful it is. I hope she finds some sort of satisfaction in recouping her money. Although, that will never fill the whole left by the loss.
_


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## vtomblin

What a horrible story. Most breeders give a 2 year written guarantee. Not so with this one? I have never heard of a breeder who won't take phone calls. Very weird. Would you mind PM ing me the breeder? I am currently searching for a foundation bitch and would appreciate the heads up. So sad....


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## Penjilum-Poodles

wow this is so sad... did she do a necropsy on her pup? 
It is really a shame when a breeder produces a pup and doesn't stand behind it. :/

Cherie could you please pm me the breeders info too, it would be good to have a heads up for future wise. Thank you... 

My condolences... I hope things turn out ok for her. Loosing a pet is such a hard thing, esp. when they are so young.


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## Dogsinstyle

I would like to know the breeding (pedigree) of the pup. Also..........here is a good place to mention the PHR again. Autoimmune diseases are the fastest rising catagory in poodles- we really need to track them!
Carole


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## Olie

How sad she lost her poor dog that I am sure she fell madly in love with. I know no amount of money will replace the loss, but I would hope the breeder would work with her for a refund (full).

Will their be an autopsy to determine cause of death? This will determine more so what the outcome may be.

NEVER take on a sick dog unless there is a contract to protect it. Too many get burned this way. 

Thanks for sharing Cherie and please let us know how things turn out.


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## amerique2

Please add me to the list to PM me as to who the breeder is. I feel so bad for the buyer and her husband.


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## plumcrazy

Lucy just turned a year old yesterday and I love her more every day that we have her in our family. I can't imagine losing her in 15 years, much less in less than two! I'm sure the family was devestated by the loss of their boy - they're in my thoughts and prayers!


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## RO1937

Were I she I would definatly have ask for a necropsyguess work on the vets behalf isnr good enough-I am a breeder and stand 100%behind my babies--a few years back I had a buyer call demanding her money back because her vet said the pup had a tumor on its salaviary gland--She was willing to pay for the surgery but wanted her money back !! Since I consider myself an honest and careful breeder I ask for the pup to be returned to me.upon exam my own vet found the pup had been bitten on the throat by her other dog !!! Clavamox cleared it up within days--guess what>I kept this little fellow and he is wonderful in all the Std Poodle ways and very healthy-If I depended on guesswork from my vet I would seek a second opinion


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## Purley

Yes. I agree with the last poster. I really don't know what an auto immune disease is, but I think the owner should have definite scientific proof that the puppy died of what the vet said it died of. 

If it turns out that the puppy had something hereditary, then for sure I think the breeder should replace the puppy or give her her money back.


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## Feralpudel

Please add me to the PM list. I would be interested in the dogs behind this poor pup. 

Please press the poor owner to try and determine what kind of autoimmune disease was involved, and encourage her to register the dog with PHR.


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## McSandd

Could you please pm me the name of the breeder as well? thx

What a horrible situation for this family to be in. I hope she can get some closure and start the healing process soon.


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## Beach girl

I would like to know, too. Thanks.


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## cbrand

A "bad reaction" to shots should have been a tip off to the breeder that this dog was at risk for autoimmune issues. Standard breeding/business practice would be to replace the puppy with a new one (don't get one with similar pedigree) or to issue a full refund.

Does this buyer have a contract?


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## whitepoodles

Very sad indeed and the buyer has the right to be fully compensated.

IF this breeder (whoever she/he is) had answered the calls, shown interest in the deceased puppy and why it died and offered after sale service, I would say YA, maybe the buyer should go back to her to buy another puppy but as CBrand said NOT from the same breeding or relatives of this puppy.

But since this so called "breeder" showed no interest is ignoring the sad tale of loss she has caused a client than NOT, I would never go back to such a breeder and would ask for a full refund.

It is NOT the illness itself that should turn a client away from a breeder , it is WHAT the breeder does when it comes to her attention that a puppy she produced came down with an ailment and died. 

Breeders are responsible for puppies they sell UNTIL THE END OF THE PUPPIES' NATURAL LIFE, let alone a puppy that dies so young and one that the breeder knew has a compromised immune system.

Sad that some breeders like this one are still allowed to operate and worse yet to have clients trusting in them.

After sale service IS SO IMPORTANT. matter of fact it is THE most important thing a breeder can offer to a client.

SO sorry for your loss.


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## Beach girl

Maybe a regular letter, not an e-mail, should be sent to the breeder. E-mails can end up in spam files, or not get received, or there might be other problems. A regular letter, delivery receipt requested, might confirm the breeder's responsiveness.


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## PaddleAddict

I would also like to know, please PM me. Thank you!


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## schnauzerpoodle

Me too, I would like to know so that I know where to look/not look when I am looking for my next pup. Please PM me if it's okay. Thanks.

I hope she would, at least, get some kind of compensation.


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## Chagall's mom

whitepoodles said:


> It is NOT the illness itself that should turn a client away from a breeder , it is WHAT the breeder does when it comes to her attention that a puppy she produced came down with an ailment and died.
> 
> Breeders are responsible for puppies they sell UNTIL THE END OF THE PUPPIES' NATURAL LIFE, let alone a puppy that dies so young and one that the breeder knew has a compromised immune system.
> 
> Sad that some breeders like this one are still allowed to operate and worse yet to have clients trusting in them.
> 
> After sale service IS SO IMPORTANT. matter of fact it is THE most important thing a breeder can offer to a client.


*whitepoodles*: I am always interested in reading what you have to say, you seem so _incredibly_ dedicated to the breed. The part of your post that I excerpted really had me nodding my head in agreement. As an aside, I hope your lovely chubby puppies are continuing to do well.

I was also interested in what *cbrand* said about the adverse reaction the puppy had to a vaccine being a tip-off to the breeder about possible issues, I'm paraphrasing here. That's very useful to know!

And* Cherie,* I don't think a poodle could have a better friend than you! That said, no poodle owner could have a more encouraging and concerned advocate. I can feel how your heart ached and broke when that poor woman called and shared her very sad story of her poor dear pup's untimely passing. Each time I hear of anyone losing a beloved pet, whether I know them or not, there's another notch of sadness etched in my heart.

Whenever I hop on this forum I learn so much from you poodle breeders and experienced owners. Very generous and good of you to share your hard-earned know-how. In the end, we are sharing one anothers joys and sorrows; not always easy to do the latter, but it's so good to be surrounded by those who can relate.


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## whitepoodles

Chagall's mom:

Life isnt always smooth and non challenging..... neither is breeding dogs. 

This breeder outright washed her hands off both the client and sadly off the puppy by ignoring the client's pain, and worse yet showing total disinterest in a puppy she had brought into this life, who didnt ask to be born but was created by this breeder.

SHAME on them. I do know who this breeder is, and I can only say, buyer beware.

CBrand: 

Totally true..and a point you cleverly raised which didnt even occur to me.. 

The breeder should of realized when the pup demonstrated a reaction that this puppy's immune system is compromised and either should of not sold the pup or made the client aware of what (problems) she may be buying.


Arreau:

I hope since the client contacted you with her sad tale of loss that you will console her and try helping her out in getting some sort of reaction from this SO CALLED breeder, or can we call them a BREEDER :scared:


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## Dogsinstyle

A couple of points...
Autoimmine issues are becoming a major issue, especially in the "popular colors".

On the new breeder group, I posted that I considered a lifetime guarantee what a true "responsible breeder" would offer. I got some blowback for that statement.
Long term guarantee's do several things-
Ensure a breeder does their homework, makes them obligated to the future pups. Why risk a mating that could come back to bite you in the butt.
Encourages puppy owners to report a health issue. Many never even think to contact the breeder 4 or 5 years down the line.
My opinion is- if you aren't taking responsibility for the long term health of the pups you produce, you should not be breeding.
Carole


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## rubymom

Please add me to the PM list. My heart certainly goes out to this person! What a tragedy!


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## thestars

Beach girl said:


> Maybe a regular letter, not an e-mail, should be sent to the breeder. E-mails can end up in spam files, or not get received, or there might be other problems. A regular letter, delivery receipt requested, might confirm the breeder's responsiveness.


I agree. As an Email Administrator/Engineer for the past 10+ years on the worlds second largest privately owned email systems I can guarantee that email is one, not secure, two, it is not guaranteed to make it to it's final destination.

When I try to settle a dispute it is via a hard copy letter with return receipt, never email and never phone. 

As for Auto-immune disease, I would ask how does the vet know for sure? Mine have made statements and were found wrong. I assume the pup was in to finish the regular regime of puppy shots. One instance of a reaction to a puppy shot does not factually say they will be more. Many theories exist on how auto-immune diseases manifest, " but the ultimate answer is "We don't know." Jean Dodds feels that modified-live vaccines overstimulate the immune system. Others blame environmental pollutants or food preservatives such as ethoxyquin, an antioxidant found in most dog foods."

I would ask if there where other symptoms of Auto-immune disease.

"Autoimmune disease has multiple symptoms depending on the organs and/or body systems that are being targeted. Diagnosis is difficult since most of the symptoms tend to mimic other conditions. If you suspect that your dog is suffering from some type of immune-mediated disease, be sure to see a vet for a proper examination.

Some of the symptoms in dogs, reported prior to diagnosis, include:

* Diarrhea with or without blood
* Lethargy and depression
* Weakness and intolerance to exercise
* Skin lesions and ulceration
* Nasal, oral, and anal lesions
* Stiff joints and lameness
* Anemia
* Seizures
* Loss of appetite
* Body odor
* Weight gain (if thyroid is affected)"
So did the person see any of these symptoms prior to the incident and did they consult their vet?

There are two sides to every story so I would be inclined to hold judgment until the other side is heard and the facts and data have been presented.


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## RO1937

:rolffleyes::rolffleyes::doh:When I decided to start breeding I sought advice from other breeders and talked with my Vet extensively and was VERY careful always asking for advice(still do)But I myself would NEVER breed a poo I was uncertain about--My Vet whom I really trust and rely on tells me no matter how careful we are our darlings can still show up with a fluke(his words not mine)I dont let my babies go before 8 wks and really prefer around 3 months-hopefully if one has a problem I will be aware.I also always check on their progress and am adament to my buyers my babies can always come back home,thus far other than one woman trying to get her money back and keep the pup that she would pay for his surgery(supposedly$1000.00)She gave me no choice but to insist the baby be returned to me,turned out he had an infection from her older dog biting him on his throat---cost me a whole whopping 60.00 for antibiotics and I learned from that- Breeder beware also.I love my babies and if they have a problem so do I.


whitepoodles said:


> Chagall's mom:
> 
> Life isnt always smooth and non challenging..... neither is breeding dogs.
> 
> This breeder outright washed her hands off both the client and sadly off the puppy by ignoring the client's pain, and worse yet showing total disinterest in a puppy she had brought into this life, who didnt ask to be born but was created by this breeder.
> 
> SHAME on them. I do know who this breeder is, and I can only say, buyer beware.
> 
> CBrand:
> 
> Totally true..and a point you cleverly raised which didnt even occur to me..
> 
> The breeder should of realized when the pup demonstrated a reaction that this puppy's immune system is compromised and either should of not sold the pup or made the client aware of what (problems) she may be buying.
> 
> 
> Arreau:
> 
> I hope since the client contacted you with her sad tale of loss that you will console her and try helping her out in getting some sort of reaction from this SO CALLED breeder, or can we call them a BREEDER :scared:


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## whitepoodles

I think it should be mentioned here also that a dog has to have a predisposition to autoimmune disease in order for the vaccine or anything in his/her life to exacerbate an autoimmune reaction.

There are dogs who go through stress and vaccination protocol and yet are continuously healthy while others will succumb to an autoimmune condition following vaccination or if under a certain amount of stress.


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## RO1937

*Stress*

True about auto immune--I have seen first hand what stress can do to an otherwise wonderful poodle,along with our breeding we also rescue,not only poodles but any animal that needs help,it`s really heart breaking to see what some people will do to a wonderful BUT dependant animal.I have been through experiences with rescues that have actually kept me awake at night.it is so frustrating to live in a state that has very few laws for their protection,I realize it isnt only my state but others as well.just to mention one--a few months ago I got a phone call about one that had been boarded and upon petting the dog the person realized something was really wrong and called me--a good distance away but my two friends and I arranged to meet her half way and take the beautiful std.poo.when we got there the poor thing couldnt stand up--so being that time of day we called our vet and told him we were on the way with her.she was really bad---pneumonia-1 week in hospital pulled her through that and she came out weighing 33 lbs.keep in mind this is a standard(I own her brother who is a nice 78lbs)she didnt pick up well so she was xrayed and found to have a good sized Rock in her intestestine--Surgery--I`m proud to say she`s doing well though still a little fearful of strangers--she`s coming along nicely though with the crowd of poos we own.I am very fortunate to have friends that share my love of them and have helped me with so much in the past year since my health as my Doctor says has gone South.but I`m never to ill to help an animal in need one way or the other.


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## wishpoo

> I think it should be mentioned here also that a dog has to have a predisposition to autoimmune disease in order for the vaccine or anything in his/her life to exacerbate an autoimmune reaction.


This is absolutely true !!! Autoimmune disorders are not so easy to diagnose nor is their "inheritance" strait forward matter. Breeders can only clear their breeding stock "by parentage" and by looking carefully into pedigrees :rolffleyes:. 

Also, autoimmune disorders usually need some time to surface and even than do not effect all patients in the same manner or to the same extent. It is highly unusual for a dog to die so suddenly without any previous health problems and symptoms :rolffleyes: As we saw with poor Buck puppy - he was slowly but surely deteriorating over a span of couple of weeks and even that was really fast : (((((( *sigh If I am wrong, somebody please correct me : ((((.

I also wonder if there are more sophisticated tests for dogs than "autopsy" , like ELISA blood tests for anti-RNA, anti- DNA and other anti-cellular antibodies present in a blood , like we have for humans ???

This "breeder" definitely sucks if he/she is avoiding communication - O_O !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! even if puppy survived and had much lesser problem , just terrible : (((


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## plumcrazy

Those who have asked for a private message from Arreau, please be patient. She is in the middle of some internet conversions and it's causing her to be offline for a while. She's hoping to be back soon and will communicate privately with those who asked when she's back!

Thanks for your patience!


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## RO1937

wishpoo said:


> This is absolutely true !!! Autoimmune disorders are not so easy to diagnose nor is their "inheritance" strait forward matter. Breeders can only clear their breeding stock "by parentage" and by looking carefully into pedigrees :rolffleyes:.
> 
> Also, autoimmune disorders usually need some time to surface and even than do not effect all patients in the same manner or to the same extent. It is highly unusual for a dog to die so suddenly without any previous health problems and symptoms :rolffleyes: As we saw with poor Buck puppy - he was slowly but surely deteriorating over a span of couple of weeks and even that was really fast : (((((( *sigh If I am wrong, somebody please correct me : ((((.
> 
> I also wonder if there are more sophisticated tests for dogs than "autopsy" , like ELISA blood tests for anti-RNA, anti- DNA and other anti-cellular antibodies present in a blood , like we have for humans ???
> 
> This "breeder" definitely sucks if he/she is avoiding communication - O_O !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! even if puppy survived and had much lesser problem , just terrible : (((


This person is not a Breeder"Breeder" I have never seen a true breeder that was`nt concerned about their reputation as well as their breeding and I know several breeders on a first name basis.When people put their trust in you you have an obligation to them as well as to your animals--you`re soooo very right about pedigree`s being important.my vets name and phone # are on my web-site."Because I Care"


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## Olie

wishpoo said:


> This "breeder" definitely sucks if he/she is avoiding communication - O_O !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! even if puppy survived and had much lesser problem , just terrible : (((


I agree! Most caring, quality breeders would WANT to know what happened and be "ready" just in case......even too console for goodness sake!

As we got limited information - it could be possible the Vet made this statement of AD because of the dogs history. IDK<

Either way I am hoping there was a contract or health guarantee if this is a line issue. Fluke things happens. I remember poodle that drank stagnant water and got sick and died.  And poor Buck, I remember that BUT I cannot place what his illness was.....

I hope this family finds peace sometime soon.


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## RO1937

A few years back I got an email from a woman who said the Rabies vaccine had killed her black STD.(Not one of mine)This is very upsetting SO I bagan to research all info I could find on vaccinations---low and behold how toxic they can be--upon discussing this with my more than wonderful vet I learned this does happen and accually had happened to him with one of his patients--he said he gave the vaccine and was talking with the owner when suddenly the dog just dropped DEAD---Since then I am VERY careful with vaccines--I never give more than one at a time and this at two to three weeks.


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## whitepoodles

wishpoo said:


> This is absolutely true !!! Autoimmune disorders are not so easy to diagnose nor is their "inheritance" strait forward matter. Breeders can only clear their breeding stock "by parentage" and by looking carefully into pedigrees :rolffleyes:.
> 
> Also, autoimmune disorders usually need some time to surface and even than do not effect all patients in the same manner or to the same extent. It is highly unusual for a dog to die so suddenly without any previous health problems and symptoms :rolffleyes: As we saw with poor Buck puppy - he was slowly but surely deteriorating over a span of couple of weeks and even that was really fast : (((((( *sigh If I am wrong, somebody please correct me : ((((.
> 
> I also wonder if there are more sophisticated tests for dogs than "autopsy" , like ELISA blood tests for anti-RNA, anti- DNA and other anti-cellular antibodies present in a blood , like we have for humans ???
> 
> This "breeder" definitely sucks if he/she is avoiding communication - O_O !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! even if puppy survived and had much lesser problem , just terrible : (((


Wishpoo:
Yes there is Pet Elisa test for dogs as well, but not for all ailments.


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## whitepoodles

Olie said:


> I agree! Most caring, quality breeders would WANT to know what happened and be "ready" just in case......even too console for goodness sake!
> 
> Totally true.
> 
> I have a sales contract with an addendum which states that the client must inform me of any ailments that crop up, genetic and non genetic.
> 
> My contract further stipulates that the client authorizes me to speak to their veterinarian and find out what is exactely going on in such case the puppy is diagnosed with an ailment.
> 
> By signing the addendum to my sales's contract the client authorizes their vet to inform me and disclose all pertinent information about the dog's condition.
> 
> Many clients find this reassuring because vets at times use $50 words and resort to medical terminology a layman (client) is unable to understand, as such the breeder speak to the vet and then in layman terms explains to the (agitated and worried) client what is going on in a calm manner. This helps the client not only understand what is going on in such case they are not familiar with medical terminology but also reassures them that their breeder is there to give support and help.
> 
> When a client questions this so called "privacy invasion" I explain to them that for me it is crucially important to find out what crops up in my line so that I do not continue to perpetuate a genetic problem in future generations by breeding from the same dam and/or sire, or both in such case they produce an affected offspring.
> 
> The client ultimately understands and fully cooperates. Those who refuse to sign and give me this authorization, are sent to other breeders.
> 
> I find this is a positive way a breeder can encourage their clients to keep them posted regarding any and all problems with their dog.
> 
> I trully feel sorry for anyone who purchases a puppy from a disinterested and uncaring breeder, and this breeder has certainly proved to be both.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Sorry for the delay but I am having some internet issues and am not ignoring anyone and will do my best to inform you all of who the breeder is.


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## Sutton Bend

Cherie,
Am looking for a pup soon. Will you please pm me the breeder as well-for my peace of mind? I cannot imagine this woman's heartache! The nerve of this "breeder". It sickens me to see someone turn these (or any other) great dogs into a cash crop...I can hardly stand it. 

I wish more buyers knew about doing health background checks, although I am sure this breeder will not have disclosed... What a rotten mess...


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## whitepoodles

Sutton Bend said:


> Cherie,
> Am looking for a pup soon. Will you please pm me the breeder as well-for my peace of mind? I cannot imagine this woman's heartache! The nerve of this "breeder". It sickens me to see someone turn these (or any other) great dogs into a cash crop...I can hardly stand it.
> 
> I wish more buyers knew about doing health background checks, although I am sure this breeder will not have disclosed... What a rotten mess...


Suttonbend:

I agree with your statement, however many ethical breeders do test thier dogs and try their best to breed healthy puppies, however at time mother nature does not always have the same plans the ethical breeder has and puppies even from very well bred lines will come down with genetic ailments.

The MOST IMPORTANT element in choosing the right breeder aside from doing background checks on the health in the line from speaking to the clients who purchased pups from this breeder is COUNTING on the breeder's availability and willingness to stand behind the dogs she produces and encouraging her/his clients to stay in touch with her in good AND BAD TIMES.

A breeder's value to both her breed and clients is apparent only when things do not go smoothly and happily ever after... this is when a true breeder's quality, ethics , integrity and interest in her pupppies and clients comes through, and either makes or breaks their reputation.

All good and bad breeders produce from time to time genetic mishaps.. this can happen to us all, however the comittment and standing behind dogs one produces is what would be the clenching for me as to what breeder I choose to buy a puppy from.


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## Sutton Bend

whitepoodles said:


> Suttonbend:
> 
> I agree with your statement, however many ethical breeders do test thier dogs and try their best to breed healthy puppies, however at time mother nature does not always have the same plans the ethical breeder has and puppies even from very well bred lines will come down with genetic ailments.
> 
> The MOST IMPORTANT element in choosing the right breeder aside from doing background checks on the health in the line from speaking to the clients who purchased pups from this breeder is COUNTING on the breeder's availability and willingness to stand behind the dogs she produces and encouraging her/his clients to stay in touch with her in good AND BAD TIMES.
> 
> A breeder's value to both her breed and clients is apparent only when things do not go smoothly and happily ever after... this is when a true breeder's quality, ethics , integrity and interest in her pupppies and clients comes through, and either makes or breaks their reputation.
> 
> All good and bad breeders produce from time to time genetic mishaps.. this can happen to us all, however the comittment and standing behind dogs one produces is what would be the clenching for me as to what breeder I choose to buy a puppy from.


I could not agree with you more! The biggest thing I am looking for is the experience of a breeder AND their integrity! When I am purchasing a puppy, I am really looking for the breeders knowledge of bloodlines, and their knowledge of their chosen breed. This is true whether it is a first puppy or a 15th. 

I do not believe there is a perfect dog, and I don't expect anyone to know it all, but I do hope people can know enough to try to breed around issues in their lines. Random stuff happens, I know. 

You are right on, it is the way a person handles _that_ eventuality that gives the world insight into the true character of a person. A litter of pups is a lifetime responsibility, and clearly you realize this, I only wish _everyone_ who produced a litter knew this too!


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## whitepoodles

Sutton Bend said:


> I could not agree with you more! The biggest thing I am looking for is the experience of a breeder AND their integrity! When I am purchasing a puppy, I am really looking for the breeders knowledge of bloodlines, and their knowledge of their chosen breed. This is true whether it is a first puppy or a 15th.
> 
> I do not believe there is a perfect dog, and I don't expect anyone to know it all, but I do hope people can know enough to try to breed around issues in their lines. Random stuff happens, I know.
> 
> You are right on, it is the way a person handles _that_ eventuality that gives the world insight into the true character of a person. A litter of pups is a lifetime responsibility, and clearly you realize this, I only wish _everyone_ who produced a litter knew this too!



A breeder can only be as good as their ethics as a person allow them to be.

If a breeder has no ethics or integrity as a person outside of her chosen breed she will also demonstrate the same vices as a breeder. 

The person's personality and ethics, in general , are what will dictate if they will be conscientious or uncaring and detached as breeders.


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## thestars

There are two sides to every story and I would withhold judgment until the story is told by both parties and the facts and data are presented. In the US we are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Our Bill of Rights says an accused person cannot be proven guilty before he confronts his/her accuser(s). The prosecution must prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. What right do we have to judge this breeder or this owner without all the facts from them and not via hearsay?

"He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone.” 
This is a bit off topic but it something I wish to share. Every Friday in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia at the town square there were people being stoned and limbs cut off for the most minor infractions like stealing bread or a woman looking at another man not her own husband. BTW Husbands or fathers have the right to kill their wives or girl children by drowning them in the family pool. The Westerners called this event and area Chop Chop Square. It was a modern day mob. It was brutal, bloody and downright barbaric. However, that was their culture and their law. I am glad to be born an American where I know that my rights are protected. IMO Hearsay, gossip and rumors are not facts; this posting is sensationalism. Sensationalism shows a lack of sensitivity to all parties involved. There were better ways to handle this then to bring it hear.


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## whitepoodles

thestars said:


> There are two sides to every story and I would withhold judgment until the story is told by both parties and the facts and data are presented. In the US we are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Our Bill of Rights says an accused person cannot be proven guilty before he confronts his/her accuser(s). The prosecution must prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. What right do we have to judge this breeder or this owner without all the facts from them and not via hearsay?
> 
> "He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone.”
> This is a bit off topic but it something I wish to share. Every Friday in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia at the town square there were people being stoned and limbs cut off for the most minor infractions like stealing bread or a woman looking at another man not her own husband. BTW Husbands or fathers have the right to kill their wives or girl children by drowning them in the family pool. The Westerners called this event and area Chop Chop Square. It was a modern day mob. It was brutal, bloody and downright barbaric. However, that was their culture and their law. I am glad to be born an American where I know that my rights are protected. IMO Hearsay, gossip and rumors are not facts; this posting is sensationalism. Sensationalism shows a lack of sensitivity to all parties involved. There were better ways to handle this then to bring it hear.


Thestars:

I dont believe anyone on this thread ever mentioned the breeder's name, location or kennel prefix..... so how can you possibly refer to any of these threads as gossip?

In order to gossip and spread rumors about an individual, names should be mentioned but in this case none were. The breeder remained annonymous. 

People on this thread merely expressed their personal opinions of how they view a breeder who detaches him/herself from the client and fails to respond to the client's calls/e-mails. And.. no matter what the breeder's side of the story is, the fact still remains that they chose not to respond to the client's sad tale of loss. If they are out of the country I agree they have an excuse... but if not.. why not acknowledge the client after she lost such a young pup ?

No one knows for sure what has happened and you are correct, there are always 2 sides to every story.

The client did mention her side of the story and is actually waiting for her breeder to respond to her , hopefully we can find out what the breeder's side of the story is...... when and if they decide to take the client's call and respond to her.


----------



## Keithsomething

its wasn't an attempt to cause a stir...Cherie didn't know if the woman should attempt to recoup half of her money or ALL of it so she asked the forum what they thought its as simple as that

and perhaps there are 2 sides to every story...but for the breeder to cut off ALL communications after one of their pups died is terrible
if I were the breeder I'd be DEMANDING what happened to the pup not ignoring the client.


----------



## NOLA Standards

I'd be sitting on said doorstep.



Would not be posting on a forum 'til resolved. Too many details not shared/known.


----------



## jak

whitepoodles said:


> Thestars:
> 
> I dont believe anyone on this thread ever mentioned the breeder's name, location or kennel prefix..... so how can you possibly refer to any of these threads as gossip?
> 
> In order to gossip and spread rumors about an individual, names should be mentioned but in this case none were. *The breeder remained annonymous. *
> 
> People on this thread merely expressed their personal opinions of how they view a breeder who detaches him/herself from the client and fails to respond to the client's calls/e-mails. And.. no matter what the breeder's side of the story is, the fact still remains that they chose not to respond to the client's sad tale of loss. If they are out of the country I agree they have an excuse... but if not.. why not acknowledge the client after she lost such a young pup ?
> 
> No one knows for sure what has happened and you are correct, there are always 2 sides to every story.
> 
> The client did mention her side of the story and is actually waiting for her breeder to respond to her , hopefully we can find out what the breeder's side of the story is...... when and if they decide to take the client's call and respond to her.


Well, there were many people that have been pm'd the breeders details, because of reading this thread.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

If I sm not mistaken, this is called the "Poodle Forum". What would you do, Jak, Thestars, if someone contacted you, out of the blue, nearly in tears, having grieved for a month, because they lost a twenty month old puppy? Their vet claimed to believe it died of Lupus or another auto immune disease. I am a breeder, and am not sure exactly what the breeder should be doing for this couple- refund their money, seeing as the pup had a reaction to its first shot- refund half the money because they bought the puppy KNOWING it had a reaction to its first shot- offer to replace the puppy from unrelated ancestry... So, I came here, as most of us do, with a query. We do that. For health questions, for grooming questions, for behaviour questions, for breeder queries, for advice on contracts, etc. *THAT IS WHAT I AM DOING!*

It is very amusing to me that this very breeder has been brought up on here time and time again by others, but because *I *ask a question in connection to them having sold a pup that died at twenty months old, without mentioning the kennel name, knowing the owners story, suddenly advice should not be sought here, on this "Poodle Forum". If the breeder had given them some satisfaction, they would likely have just contacted me looking for a puppy to fill the hole in their hearts. But, because their breeder is running hot and cold with them, not taking phone calls and only responding when they choose to to emails, on top oof the loss these people are facing personally and financially, they are frustrated beyond measure. I can easily lead them to an ethical breeder to get a replacement puppy no problem. But with regard to the other aspects, I am seeking advice on their behalf, which I believe I have a right to do. 

As for me responding to PM's...would you like me to lie?


----------



## jak

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> If I sm not mistaken, this is called the "Poodle Forum". What would you do, Jak, Thestars, if someone contacted you, out of the blue, nearly in tears, having grieved for a month, because they lost a twenty month old puppy? Their vet claimed to believe it died of Lupus or another auto immune disease. I am a breeder, and am not sure exactly what the breeder should be doing for this couple- refund their money, seeing as the pup had a reaction to its first shot- refund half the money because they bought the puppy KNOWING it had a reaction to its first shot- offer to replace the puppy from unrelated ancestry... So, I came here, as most of us do, with a query. We do that. For health questions, for grooming questions, for behaviour questions, for breeder queries, for advice on contracts, etc. *THAT IS WHAT I AM DOING!*
> 
> It is very amusing to me that this very breeder has been brought up on here time and time again by others, but because *I *ask a question in connection to them having sold a pup that died at twenty months old, without mentioning the kennel name, knowing the owners story, suddenly advice should not be sought here, on this "Poodle Forum". If the breeder had given them some satisfaction, they would likely have just contacted me looking for a puppy to fill the hole in their hearts. But, because their breeder is running hot and cold with them, not taking phone calls and only responding when they choose to to emails, on top oof the loss these people are facing personally and financially, they are frustrated beyond measure. I can easily lead them to an ethical breeder to get a replacement puppy no problem. But with regard to the other aspects, I am seeking advice on their behalf, which I believe I have a right to do.
> 
> As for me responding to PM's...would you like me to lie?


OMG...
here we go *again...*
making it into something it's not :smow:


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

*seriously???* 

I have been accused of posting this thread for "sensationalism". Nope, not making it something it is not!!!!


----------



## jak

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> *seriously???*


Yes, because I see absolutely no need to get worked up, and makes things personal about you *again*

Jean said nothing inflammatory or rude ? 

Especially when you quoted my name ? when I was replying to a comment that Ora said ?


----------



## Winnow

Well I am not sure how its done in America but here in Iceland you buy a dog knowing its a life creature who can at any moment die, just like you and I.

Some breeders give the owner a new puppy but I think that is not common.

We had a Labrador who died of a heart attack when he was 10 months old.
We did not ask for a new dog or a refund, we told the breeder about this. S**t happens you just go on with your life.

Dogs die thats a fact we always hope that they live a long and happy life but sometimes that is not the case. You buy your dog knowing this and its not the breeders fault if the dog dies.

Not unless he has been withholding some info on the dogs health status. But in this case the owner of the dog knew about the bad reaction to the shots.

You can get auto immune diseases with out having any in you family, and they come out of nowhere, I have been healthy all my life until I got 24 then all of a sudden I am very sick from all kinds of auto immune diseases. 

Just saying that dogs are live animals.. And they are hard to guarantee.
Thats why I sell my dogs with live and health insurance. That way if anything happens the owner seeks there claim from the insurance company not me.

Of course I am very sorry for the owners loss, but this comes with owning a live animal, they die.


----------



## jak

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I have been accused of posting this thread for "sensationalism". Nope, not making it something it is not!!!!


Really ?

Then why was my name quoted? I was replying to Ora's comment


Very good points Winnow.


----------



## fjm

I am interested in Winnow's point about insurance. In the UK it would be extremely unusual to buy a KC registered pup that did not come with 4 or 6 weeks free insurance - the insurance companies have breeder schemes that are free, and the Kennel Club offers a period of free insurance on registration, in the hope of hooking the new puppy owner. It is then the owner's responsibility to insure their new dog, either by continuing the existing insurance, or choosing a new policy. Personally I would always keep up a high level of insurance for at least the first few years, in case anything cropped up.


----------



## Winnow

fjm said:


> I am interested in Winnow's point about insurance. In the UK it would be extremely unusual to buy a KC registered pup that did not come with 4 or 6 weeks free insurance - the insurance companies have breeder schemes that are free, and the Kennel Club offers a period of free insurance on registration, in the hope of hooking the new puppy owner. It is then the owner's responsibility to insure their new dog, either by continuing the existing insurance, or choosing a new policy. Personally I would always keep up a high level of insurance for at least the first few years, in case anything cropped up.


All my pups come with a life and health insurance for the first year. Then the owner can take over or move the insurance to another company.

I like this since dogs tend to be more prone to accidents in there puppy hood. 

I don´t give any health guarantees. I feel that its not possible I would have to be god to guarantee that the dog would not get sick.


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## thestars

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> If I sm not mistaken, this is called the "Poodle Forum". What would you do, Jak, Thestars, if someone contacted you, out of the blue, nearly in tears, having grieved for a month, because they lost a twenty month old puppy? Their vet claimed to believe it died of Lupus or another auto immune disease. I am a breeder, and am not sure exactly what the breeder should be doing for this couple- refund their money, seeing as the pup had a reaction to its first shot- refund half the money because they bought the puppy KNOWING it had a reaction to its first shot- offer to replace the puppy from unrelated ancestry... So, I came here, as most of us do, with a query. We do that. For health questions, for grooming questions, for behaviour questions, for breeder queries, for advice on contracts, etc. *THAT IS WHAT I AM DOING!*
> 
> It is very amusing to me that this very breeder has been brought up on here time and time again by others, but because *I *ask a question in connection to them having sold a pup that died at twenty months old, without mentioning the kennel name, knowing the owners story, suddenly advice should not be sought here, on this "Poodle Forum". If the breeder had given them some satisfaction, they would likely have just contacted me looking for a puppy to fill the hole in their hearts. But, because their breeder is running hot and cold with them, not taking phone calls and only responding when they choose to to emails, on top oof the loss these people are facing personally and financially, they are frustrated beyond measure. I can easily lead them to an ethical breeder to get a replacement puppy no problem. But with regard to the other aspects, I am seeking advice on their behalf, which I believe I have a right to do.
> 
> As for me responding to PM's...would you like me to lie?


If someone contacted me and I have had this happen already, I help the person handle it privately. Why because I have not heard the breeders side of the story, she is emotionally charged and looking for sympathy. Jumping to conclusions based on one crying woman's story is irresponsible. You could have taken the initiative as anyone on this forum that PM'd you for the name of the breeder, to contact this breeder yourself and assist this lady if you felt the need. 

Winnow, you are correct, we are gods living creatures and at any moment in time something can change and we find ourselves in a situation we would never have expected that is life altering.

As for sensationalizing this topic, you betcha this is the case. Sensationalizing is presenting information about something in a way that provokes public interest and excitement, at the expense of accuracy. A dictionary definition is; To cast and present in a manner intended to arouse strong interest, especially through inclusion of exaggerated or lurid details. 

The story was fed into the forum to arouse talk and continued it even through PMs. As for it being gossip, it is definitely that. People feel the power when they have something juicy to say about someone else. We didn't have to know exactly who was the intended because we assume based on knowledge of the speaker.

Is there anyone one out there that got the name and did anything other then complain about this breeder. I'm disappointed that in this poodle community of for the most part good intentioned people that no one tried to resolve this situation in a private and fair manner. It's rather sad.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

You know Jean, I think it is fantastic that you are now a mind reader too, and KNOW someone elses intents and purposes for everything they post, say and do!

For your information, the thread was meant as I said it was. I have already referred this woman to another breeder, so she will be getting a new puppy shortly. The query and reason for this post was: What should the breeder do too compensate this couple? THAT was the intent of the thread and that is the purpose of this thread. Not to have you berate me again, and to try to find fault in something else I have done. Thank you.


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## plumcrazy

*Back on topic please...*

I've read this entire thread - several times... and I find that the topic of the thread is that a puppy died young, and the distraught owners have had little luck communicating with the breeder, so have contacted other breeders to share their sorrow and confusion.

The question was asked of this community, "what do you all think is fair?" on the continued responsibility of the breeder to a pupppy he/she bred and sold.

The breeder of the deceased puppy has not been publically mentioned on this thread, however, if a member wishes to know the identity so they can make a decision whether or not to patronize this breeder in the future - that is what private messages are for. This would not be the first time a breeder is discussed through private messages... am I wrong?? 

All I want to see discussed on this thread is member opinions on breeder responsibilities for communicating/recompensing their puppy clients when tragedies occur - and keep it hypothetical... this could pertain to ANY breeder's responsibilities to clients, not just the anonymous breeder discussed here. Any further discussion off topic will result in the closing of the thread and PMs sent to the people responsible. 

So... back on topic please! Thank you.

Barb

ps... please read my permanent signature below!


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## faerie

i have no dogs in this fight (heh)


but i do have to laugh at the statement that one is innocent until proven guilty in this country.
many people sit in jail or are fired from jobs etc every day because they have been charged of a crime that they are innocent of, but they are guilty until proven innocent.


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## faerie

oh and i had a german shepherd dog that died at 8.5 years old of an autoimmune disease.

the same dog was found to have arthritis forming in his elbows at 2. i called the breeder and informed him and he spayed the bitch because he didnt' want to pass that on.

however at 8.5 years when my dog died, i didn't expect the breeder to give me another dog because i took it as a **** happens thing.


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## whitepoodles

I have again read and re-read all the posts.

NOWHERE is the breeder's name mentioned or referenced.

We have freedom of speach in this country and PM'ing is actually quite more civilized that blurting out the breeder's name before they had a chance to respond and give their side/version of the story.

To sum it all up, it does not matter who PM'd who said what , what was said, etc... as long as it was said while the breeder's name still remained ANONYMOUS.

Bottom line is:

DID the breeder respond to the client??

DID the breeder make attempts to contact the client after receiving what I assume are several calls and/or e-mails letting her/him know of the situation??

IS the breeder out of the country making it impossible for him/her to respond to a client who put their confidence in this breeder ethics ??

WHY is this breeder todate non responsive?? Is there a reason for his/her silence??

These are questions that only the breeder themselves can answer in order to clear this situation up for the client (NOT FOR US HERE ON THE FORUM).

We do not matter , what we say does not matter , what the client feels, and how she is treated by her breeder and the lack of responsivness by this breeder is what counts....

True no breeder can ever guarantee a puppy will not die young or old, but that is not the point here, the whole point discussed is WHY has not the breeder contacted the client after she found out about her sad tale of loss?

This is what this is all about, NOT berrating a breeder and/or trying to mar their reputation.


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## Fluffyspoos

I think it's sad the dog died, and I think it's more sad the breeder, who should be caring about their lines, isn't trying to figure out exactly what happened and how. I *know *if anything happened to Vegas, Karen would be ALL over it.

That is my opinion, that is all.

oh, and


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## Olie

.....


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## Olie

.....


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## Cdnjennga

I think this is a very tough question. The dog was 20 months and had been out of the breeder's care for a long time, and as Winnow pointed out, sh*t happens out of the blue sometimes. The breeder can't be responsible for everything that crops up, at some point the buyer assumes responsibility for the dog.

However, regardless of what the breeder ultimately does or offers, I do think they should be supporting the buyer as much as possible and obviously this is what the buyer thinks is missing. They are shocked and grieving and need some breeder support. Perhaps the breeder should offer up their phone number in that circumstance, rather than relying on emails, which can be so impersonal.

I hope they are doing some sort of autopsy to determine cause as best as possible. I know if one of the pups we had sold died suddenly at a young age, we would definitely want to know what caused if it at all possible.


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## Keithsomething

I couldn't imagine the devastation I'd feel if Elphie were to pass away at 20mo 
And though I despise her breeder I'd still email her and let her know and I'd hope for a sympathetic response...

Cherie, has the breeder gotten back to this couple yet? Have they decided whether they should pursue any legal action?


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## Dogsinstyle

This situation presents an opportunity for breeders, esp. new breeders, to learn. Not only about the pitfalls of puppy transactions, but......
about breeding stratigies in general.
The probability is this is an autoimmune problem. It behooves any person with a sibling or close relative to WAIT, and don't be in a hurry to breed when their poodle turns 2. If the poodle in question is still healthy at 4, then consider breeding.
I again invite breeders, new or not, to join the new list.
standardpoodleproteges : Standard Poodle Proteges
Carole


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## whitepoodles

The point... actually the MOST important aspect of this thread is:

HAS THE BREEDER RESPONDED TO THE CLIENT'S CALLS/EMAILS AND IF NOT WHY ???

This is what this thread is all about.... not slander, sensationalism, or gossip, but merely an INNOCENT question...WHY hasnt the breeder acknowledged this poor client's sad tale of loss, especially since the dead dog emmanated out of her/his breeding?

As a breeder this is what concerns me and what I personally would like to find out.

NOTHING else matters to me, aside from this client's grief over the loss of her beloved pet and WHY hasnt the breeder acknowledged it IMMEDIATELY.

The breeder's responsibility does NOT end after the sale is consumated and money exchanges hands.. it should continue far beyond this point.

This is what makes a breeder a good, responsible, and ethical one.

All breeders come up with genetic mishaps, as Winnow correctly said, No one can guarantee a puppy will not die young or old, but ALAS what about the breeder's involvement.. What is her/his reason for the silence? Where is she/he? Why are they non responsive.. THIS IS what behooves and saddens me, both as a dog owner and breeder.

I am not here to inflame or demean or berrate any breeder on the contrary, I am here to state facts and I dont care who PM's who or what is said.. there is only ONE thing that concerns and WORRIES me here.. WHERE IS THE BREEDER in all this? 

TheStars:

From your posts I assume, but could be wrong, that you have knowledge of this breeder . If so and you suggest that all facts should be heard not only the client's version of the "story", which I totally agree with, may I ask you then why hasnt the breeder responded to her client..... yet ?


----------



## NOLA Standards

*PF and the Soaps*

Am new to the forum, and must admit, I check in regularly. Because, reference this thread - there is DRAMA to be had. 

Someone losing a family member - which I consider a pet to be -is the worst thing.

I believe in responsible breeding practices - and WHEN I breed, I will do my best to support my buyers for life - as I believe most breeders do.
(hashed and re hashed and hashed again - Hallelujah)

HOWEVER, here are my thoughts since this seems to be the place to share them with all.

I own a business - 100s of customers - 10+ years in business. MOST of my customers I have had for the life of my business - excellent retention = excellent customer service. But *on occasion*, I get someone who will NOT be made happy.

Doesn't make me a bad business person.

There are people here, good breeders - who I have heard things about (at SHOWS people and by being as involved as I have been with the fancy) In fact, pick a name that is well known and odds are good there is smut to be had. SOMEWHERE along the way there has been at least ONE person who doesn't think they were treated properly by *X*.

POINT: Do everything right and you still don't get it all right

Next item

I don't understand crying to other breeders. I do understand crying. And I understand action. So if I lost an animal, (no disrespect here to Arreau) I would not go to another breeder so they could ask an opinion on a forum - or watch Judge Judy for me...

I'm going to go to the breeder. If they don't return the phone call - I'm really going to GO to the breeder. Let's use Pinky as an example. Young girl - used the media!! Yes she came to the forum - HERSELF - for advice and some really good advice was given.

(BTW did we actually DO ANYTHING other than type 76 pages of our most esteemed opinions?? I SHOULD HAVE and MENT to - and we know what that equals - HOT AIR - just curious if I'm the only one) 

Point here: I think it is sensational. Another discourse on responsible breeding by the same people who have already posted about responsible breeding - tune in tomorrow - it does seem like the "sides" are fighting and the message was posted to create some uproar. PM me! NOT!!!! that was sarcasm.

Now I haven't PM'd anyone and don't know who the breeder is/was. Neither do I know who the person was who lost the pet.

But I DO know, if it had been me, there wouldn't be a group of people chatting about me not being in touch with the breeder and crying to another. There might though, be a group of people talking about the clip they saw on CNN about the woman who bought the pet and the breeder wouldn't call her back and she... is there a boxing smiley face??

There you all go. 

Not worth much at all, really.

Just wanted to come out of the Audience (al la Jerry Springer) and jump into the Fight!!! YEA!


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## plumcrazy

NOLA, it is true that every individual person handles things differently than the other... not everyone will handle things as you would - and you would not handle things the same as everyone else... it's life.

back on topic please.

Thank you!


----------



## Beach girl

With all the discussion back and forth, I haven't seen much about what anyone thinks the breeder should be doing for this client monetarily. Refund all? Refund half?

In my totally non-expert opinion, and based on nothing but gut feelings, I'd think half a refund is more than fair. And even that should be ONLY if the vet can PROVE it was an autoimmune disorder. Was there an autopsy or blood test, or was auto-immune just the vet's guess? If I were a breeder, I would not be refunding money based only on a "guess," especially after the dog is over one year old. 

The breeder has no way of knowing what the buyer has been feeding the dog and how the buyer has been maintaining the dog's environment. The breeder can't possibly know if the dog maybe ate something bad, licked up anti-freeze someplace, swallowed a piece of panty-hose, ate bird poop and got sick, got scratched by another animal with an illness, etc., etc. Bizarre things happen to dogs and absent actual proof, I'd be reluctant to say the breeder should immediately refund money only based on the vet's guess.

Also, if the breeder doesn't take phone calls, perhaps there's a reason - hard of hearing, doesn't want to be innundated with phone calls, etc. Did the buyer send an actual letter, to follow up the e-mail? E-mails, as we have already noted, are not fool-proof. I have found the occasional note from a friend in my spam filter from time to time. Not everyone checks their spam to discover if there might be actual mail there. The buyer has some responsibility to be SURE that the breeder received the communication.

It's not my intent to defend an uncaring breeder, if that's what the situation is; just saying the buyer has some responsibility also, to verify the facts and to communicate with the breeder in a more certain way.

Another question: what do you all mean exactly by "bad reaction" to a vaccination? Casey got sick, with some vomiting and diarrhea, after a vaccination. Is that a "bad reaction" that I should have told the breeder about, or is that within range of "normal?" I didn't even think of e-mailing the breeder about it; maybe I should have.


----------



## KalaMama

Winnow, I think you have exactly the right idea about guarantees. I enjoyed your post. I wonder if we have that type of insurance here in the U.S.? I know some have pet insurance but I haven't seen breeders who offer it. very interesting!


----------



## whitepoodles

Beach girl said:


> With all the discussion back and forth, I haven't seen much about what anyone thinks the breeder should be doing for this client monetarily. Refund all? Refund half?
> 
> Beachgirl;
> 
> The reason is because the breeder does not respond or contacts the client inspite of being advised of what happened to the dog.
> 
> HARD of hearing ?? :rolffleyes:
> 
> DOESNT want to be innundated with phone calls ??... doesnt this breeder expect/wants alot of e-mails and/or phone calls from prospective clients wishing to buy her/his pups, now and in future ??
> 
> If so, and I have no doubt it is the case, then she/he should expect to reply to e-mails when there is a sad tale of loss as much as she/he looks to reply to e-mails from prospective clients wishing to contact her for a puppy.... Just wondering why would a difference be made here??


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

NOLA Standards said:


> Am new to the forum, and must admit, I check in regularly. Because, reference this thread - there is DRAMA to be had.
> 
> Someone losing a family member - which I consider a pet to be -is the worst thing.
> 
> I believe in responsible breeding practices - and WHEN I breed, I will do my best to support my buyers for life - as I believe most breeders do.
> (hashed and re hashed and hashed again - Hallelujah)
> 
> HOWEVER, here are my thoughts since this seems to be the place to share them with all.
> 
> I own a business - 100s of customers - 10+ years in business. MOST of my customers I have had for the life of my business - excellent retention = excellent customer service. But *on occasion*, I get someone who will NOT be made happy.
> 
> Doesn't make me a bad business person.
> 
> There are people here, good breeders - who I have heard things about (at SHOWS people and by being as involved as I have been with the fancy) In fact, pick a name that is well known and odds are good there is smut to be had. SOMEWHERE along the way there has been at least ONE person who doesn't think they were treated properly by *X*.
> 
> POINT: Do everything right and you still don't get it all right
> 
> Next item
> 
> I don't understand crying to other breeders. I do understand crying. And I understand action. So if I lost an animal, (no disrespect here to Arreau) I would not go to another breeder so they could ask an opinion on a forum - or watch Judge Judy for me...
> 
> I'm going to go to the breeder. If they don't return the phone call - I'm really going to GO to the breeder. Let's use Pinky as an example. Young girl - used the media!! Yes she came to the forum - HERSELF - for advice and some really good advice was given.
> 
> (BTW did we actually DO ANYTHING other than type 76 pages of our most esteemed opinions?? I SHOULD HAVE and MENT to - and we know what that equals - HOT AIR - just curious if I'm the only one)
> 
> Point here: I think it is sensational. Another discourse on responsible breeding by the same people who have already posted about responsible breeding - tune in tomorrow - it does seem like the "sides" are fighting and the message was posted to create some uproar. PM me! NOT!!!! that was sarcasm.
> 
> Now I haven't PM'd anyone and don't know who the breeder is/was. Neither do I know who the person was who lost the pet.
> 
> But I DO know, if it had been me, there wouldn't be a group of people chatting about me not being in touch with the breeder and crying to another. There might though, be a group of people talking about the clip they saw on CNN about the woman who bought the pet and the breeder wouldn't call her back and she... is there a boxing smiley face??
> 
> There you all go.
> 
> Not worth much at all, really.
> 
> Just wanted to come out of the Audience (al la Jerry Springer) and jump into the Fight!!! YEA!


First, please let me say, this woman called me for a puppy to fill the hole left by the loss of her other puppy. Just as girlfriends commiserate with their girlfriends about their kids, or how ticked they are with their husband, not expecting their girlfriend to fix it, but rather just to have someone who will listen and share their disapppointment or heartache, this woman shared her story with me because she is grieiving. Understandably so!! Nobody EXPECTS to lose a dog at twenty months of age to illness. She did not ASK me to come on a forum to find a solution for her. But after speaking with her about her loss, I, as a breeder, was not exactly sure how a breeder SHOULD handle this. Because the pup reacted to its first shots, should it have been sold at all? Should it have been sold with a contract different to the regular contract this breeder issues with each sold pup? Should they reimburse the price of the puppy? Half the price because of the age? Replace the puppy from an unrelated litter? Believe it or not, I did not create this thread to create drama. As a breeder, what if this happened to me? What steps should I take to be fair to the buyer, retain my reputation, and have everyone walk away feeling sad but satisfied?

A lot of the threads on this forum go smoothly and without incident. The ones that get out of hand are usually the ones where people just come in because of who the OP is, and wish to try to make them look stupid, or guilty of trouble making, start an argument, or have a bone to pick wiith them. That is their preogative. But please, in this instance do not assume you know me, or know why I posted this thread. I am a sympathetic person whose heart was sick for someone calling me because they lost their 20 month old pup. I would like to help her. She didn't ask me to, but showed some real concern for how she is being treated and the hot/cold response she is getting from the breeder of the pup, lack of communication from said breeder, and lack of any sort of plan to be reimbursed at all for her loss.

My personal feeling is the breeder should replace the pup with an unrelated puppy or give the buyer at least half the original price of the puppy back to help them pay the vet bill and to help with the purchase another puppy. I do not know at this point if any kind of post mortem work was done on the dog or if the vet made his diagnosis based on what the owner told him. I have referred this woman to another breeder, and she has put a deposit on a puppy, but I will try to get more details from her.


----------



## whitepoodles

KalaMama said:


> Winnow, I think you have exactly the right idea about guarantees. I enjoyed your post. I wonder if we have that type of insurance here in the U.S.? I know some have pet insurance but I haven't seen breeders who offer it. very interesting!


Kalamama:

Some breeders do give a health guarantee of 1-2-3-5- years. I know I give a 5 years written health guarantee on genetic mishaps and a lifetime guarantee on temperament, providing that my clients fulfill and adhere to all stipulations of the do's and dont's of my addendum instruction list to my sales contract... which is 12 typed pages listing do's and dont's from A-Z.

There are clients who buy insurance for their pets once the breeder sells the puppy to them.

I am not aware of any breeder who purchases a health insurance for the puppy they sell and it is interesting that it is done in Europe , which is a good thing, 

Winnow:

How much does it cost you to purchase this type of insurance and offer it to all your puppy clients? Finland I believe is in Krons? not Euro, right ?


----------



## Penjilum-Poodles

Beach girl said:


> The breeder has no way of knowing what the buyer has been feeding the dog and how the buyer has been maintaining the dog's environment. The breeder can't possibly know if the dog maybe ate something bad, licked up anti-freeze someplace, swallowed a piece of panty-hose, ate bird poop and got sick, got scratched by another animal with an illness, etc., etc. Bizarre things happen to dogs and absent actual proof, I'd be reluctant to say the breeder should immediately refund money only based on the vet's guess.


This is true. I believe the breeder should only refund if it was proven that the dog did in fact have a hereditary illness. Not on a Vet's presumption. But we don't know the full details of this owner's story as well as the breeders. Did she have a necropsy preformed on her dog?
This is why it is important that there is a contract/guarantee in which it states that should the dog die that an necropsy be preformed to determine the cause of death. I as a breeder would want to know how and why a seemingly healthy young puppy from my lines has died. As a breeder I would stand behind my puppies and work with my puppy buyers. 

However, based on what we've been told, it concerns me that the breeder has not responded to the owner's calls or emails as of yet...
There is always the unknown that could arise but an ethical breeder would be there to work with their puppy buyers in all situations.

I am deeply sorry for their loss, it is very difficult to loose a loved one, but i am glad that you pointed her in the right direction Arreau and that they will soon be getting a little bundle of joy to fill their hearts again.


----------



## PaddleAddict

Beach girl said:


> Another question: what do you all mean exactly by "bad reaction" to a vaccination? Casey got sick, with some vomiting and diarrhea, after a vaccination. Is that a "bad reaction" that I should have told the breeder about, or is that within range of "normal?" I didn't even think of e-mailing the breeder about it; maybe I should have.


A "normal" reaction after vaccines would be some soreness at the injection site, a slightly elevated temperature or lethargy.

Vomiting and diarrhea after a vaccine is definitely not a normal reaction. I would tell your breeder about it. Since your dog had a reaction to vaccines, what sort of protocol does your vet want to follow in the future? Subsequent vaccinations after a bad reaction can cause and even more heightened response. Some vets choose to pretreat with antihistamines before vaccines, others recommend avoiding vaccines entirely.


----------



## Beach girl

This particular breeder and buyer aside, what would you consider "working with" the buyer? 

Let's say a buyer has lost a 2 year old dog, had the necropsy done, and it comes back that yes, indeed, the dog died from a genetically-aquired ailment. Let's say further that the breeder has been conscientious, has done all necessary required and recommended health tests, has a reasonably low COI for her litters, does all the right things as far as she has been aware. The adverse reaction to the vaccine was the only possible warning sign, and perhaps even that was within range of "normal reaction. " (I honestly don't know exactly what an "adverse reaction" is, and am now hoping that my own dog's reaction to a vaccine isn't a sign of bad things to come.)

What would be fair? Full refund? Half refund? New puppy from unrelated litter? Who should pay shipping, the buyer or the breeder, if shipping is involved? 

Would it make a difference if it happened at age six months, say, versus 2 years? Or five years? 

Have the breeders here ever had to refund money, in part or in full, or offer a new puppy, under similar circumstances? If so, was the buyer satisfied?

Just curious about how one would approach it, from a business point of view.

*Paddle Addict, * I didn't see your post before I wrote the above. Thanks for the info.

My vet didn't mention anything about any particular protocol for further shots. That was his final vaccine of the puppy series; the rabies shot is good for 3 years so he is not due again for anything until more than a year from now. I will definitely bring it up with the vet before Casey 
gets his next shot.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Beach girl said:


> This particular breeder and buyer aside, what would you consider "working with" the buyer?
> 
> Let's say a buyer has lost a 2 year old dog, had the necropsy done, and it comes back that yes, indeed, the dog died from a genetically-aquired ailment. Let's say further that the breeder has been conscientious, has done all necessary required and recommended health tests, has a reasonably low COI for her litters, does all the right things as far as she has been aware. The adverse reaction to the vaccine was the only possible warning sign, and perhaps even that was within range of "normal reaction. " (I honestly don't know exactly what an "adverse reaction" is, and am now hoping that my own dog's reaction to a vaccine isn't a sign of bad things to come.)
> 
> What would be fair? Full refund? Half refund? New puppy from unrelated litter? Who should pay shipping, the buyer or the breeder, if shipping is involved?
> 
> Would it make a difference if it happened at age six months, say, versus 2 years? Or five years?
> 
> Have the breeders here ever had to refund money, in part or in full, or offer a new puppy, under similar circumstances? If so, was the buyer satisfied?
> 
> Just curious about how one would approach it, from a business point of view.



I have, thankfully, never gone through anything like this (please God, please hear my prayer...) nor do I want to but this was exactly what I was asking in my original post. Most breeders have at least a two year health guarantee, so now how does this breeder approach this situation? What should be expected of them other than them opening up the lines of communication and making their position on this matter clear?


----------



## whitepoodles

HARD of hearing ?? :rolffleyes:

I re read my post , and I feel that some member (s) of this forum will be offended with the rollereye icon I placed at the end of the aforementioned sentence, in case anyone who read it is hearing impaired and for this I do apologise. It was an uncalled for oversight and an innocent mistake.

Having said this, I do stand by my ??? mark at the end of the above sentece.

Assuming the breeder IS infact hard of hearing and can not hear the phone ring, still she did conduct a puppy sale (s) and I have no doubt that the client contacted her either via phone, or email or both .

As such if this breeder may be hard of hearing and knew how to conduct a sale and sold the puppy to the client then surely she is ALSO able to respond to the client's phone calls and/or e-mails.

IF the breeder is hard of hearing, then surely she can see a red flashing button on her phone that clearly implies there is a message which needs responding to, and if no phone call by the client than surely the breeder does from time to time check their e-mails and notices when a puppy client sends them an inquiry for a puppy and in this case a request for a solution to a very sad tale of loss.

IF ANY breeder is hard of hearing and can not hear the phone.. they have an optional tool and it is called computer/e-mail and an answering machine which flashes red when there are messages needing response.

My ROLLEYE icon came NOT as an insult to breeders or people in general who are hard of hearing but to merely state what I have stated above.

Being hard of hearing will never be an excuse for not responding to or acknowledging a client in need.

IF a breeder is not THAT HARD OF HEARING enough to sell their puppies, than they should not be that hard of hearing to respond to their clients.

Am I wrong ?


----------



## Lilah+Jasper

PaddleAddict said:


> Subsequent vaccinations after a bad reaction can cause and even more heightened response. Some vets choose to pretreat with antihistamines before vaccines, others recommend avoiding vaccines entirely.


This is true. Our ragdoll cat at age 2 had a "bad reaction" to her annual vaccines and we had to give her benedryl. The next year she was given antihistamines before her next set of shots but it did no good. She had a full blown seizure and had to be rushed to the emergency vet. Ever since, our vet has advised that Clarice should not get preventative vaccines. The adverse reaction to the vaccine outweighs the risk of disease. It makes me nervous though to think that she is unprotected...


----------



## Penjilum-Poodles

Lilah+Jasper said:


> This is true. Our ragdoll cat at age 2 had a "bad reaction" to her annual vaccines and we had to give her benedryl. The next year she was given antihistamines before her next set of shots but it did no good. She had a full blown seizure and had to be rushed to the emergency vet. Ever since, our vet has advised that Clarice should not get preventative vaccines. The adverse reaction to the vaccine outweighs the risk of disease. It makes me nervous though to think that she is unprotected...


Over vaccinating is a BIG problem in the pet industry today. More vaccinations = more $$$. I hear more and more horrible stories about the effects of vaccinations and over vaccinating. I believe in very minimal inoculations and titer testing. A pet can be fully vaccinated and still die of parvo. I believe a healthy diet and a strong immune system is what makes all the difference. 
My cat lived to the ripe old age of 19 and she had never been vaccinated and she enjoyed spending her summer days outdoors, her diet consisted of both raw and kibble.
Everything i do, i try to do it as natural as possible...


----------



## Beach girl

Wow. That is really interesting. I didn't think it was anything more than an aggravation when Casey had his vomiting/diarrhea episodes for a day or two after his final rabies shot. Now I'm scared...

Will definitely bring it up with the vet when his next shot is due.

Do you titer your cat, to see if she still has the antibodies? Sometimes vaccines last a lot longer than the standard predicted times.


----------



## Penjilum-Poodles

Beach girl said:


> Wow. That is really interesting. I didn't think it was anything more than an aggravation when Casey had his vomiting/diarrhea episodes for a day or two after his final rabies shot. Now I'm scared...
> 
> Will definitely bring it up with the vet when his next shot is due.
> 
> Do you titer your cat, to see if she still has the antibodies? Sometimes vaccines last a lot longer than the standard predicted times.


Unfortunately no because she passed away two years ago at the age of 19.
She lived a wonderful life. 

It is really great that the titer option available for pet owners. Each dog's protection lasts differently. Alot of people (including me) believe it lasts for life. It's like our children, we don't re-vaccinate our children or us for the matter every year, so why our pets? Esp. when their lifespan is shorter than humans.
I strongly am against vaccines. The only reason why i give minimal is because of my fear of "what ifs". Otherwise i would choose to not vaccinate at all. At least this way with minimal they have a little immunity towards.
Thankfully here rabies isn't manditory, as i will NOT vaccinate for rabies.

There are breeders, natural rearers who don't vaccinate and raw feed their dogs for over 30+ years and swear by it.


----------



## wishpoo

> This particular breeder and buyer aside, what would you consider "working with" the buyer?
> 
> Let's say a buyer has lost a 2 year old dog, had the necropsy done, and it comes back that yes, indeed, the dog died from a genetically-aquired ailment. Let's say further that the breeder has been conscientious, has done all necessary required and recommended health tests, has a reasonably low COI for her litters, does all the right things as far as she has been aware. The adverse reaction to the vaccine was the only possible warning sign, and perhaps even that was within range of "normal reaction. " (I honestly don't know exactly what an "adverse reaction" is, and am now hoping that my own dog's reaction to a vaccine isn't a sign of bad things to come.)
> 
> What would be fair? Full refund? Half refund? New puppy from unrelated litter? Who should pay shipping, the buyer or the breeder, if shipping is involved?
> 
> Would it make a difference if it happened at age six months, say, versus 2 years? Or five years?
> 
> Have the breeders here ever had to refund money, in part or in full, or offer a new puppy, under similar circumstances? If so, was the buyer satisfied?
> 
> Just curious about how one would approach it, from a business point of view.


Alllll of the above should be very clearly stipulated in the Sale Contract !!!

That is why I repeat over and over to future buyers - NEVER buy a dog without a contract  

Some argue that contract is of no value since it can be "broken" but let me tell you - so far I never saw disparity between the breeder and the way contract was written !!! If the contract was "shabby" than the breeding and health testing were of the same level of care. If contract was in detail and written in legal terms - breeder was very educated and up to detail person who knew what he/she was talking about and stood firmly behind it.

If I see "warranty for anything genetic" - it is too broad of a term, for example - absolutely NOT able to be enforced since every single trait is "genetic" - now if dog has sensitive guts and has diarrhea every 5 days and is prone to allergies - is it also covered - NOT, of course. 

Breeder has to put down on paper in very clear way WHAT is covered and in what period. The ONLY things IMO that can be guaranteed with some great certainty and probability are conditions like hip and eye problems, SA, vWD, Thyroid, Addisons and some heart problems and possibly JRD (although that test is still not as precise as it should be). 

All other conditions as are autoimmune ones would be VERY hard to cover or guaranteed (again IMO) since they do can develop in perfectly healthy animal and NOT develop in predisposed one (same as with humans). Than - those conditions would be in category "*rap happens". 

Conditions that have clear genetic connection and very high incidence of happening in the next generation (as if 2 dogs with bad hips are bread or with bad eyes) , etc. - THOSE should be covered by warranty by all means since they can be very well avoided by careful screening and NOT breeding animals that are not at least 2 years old. 

It seems that Ora might have the contract that is very specific and of excellent quality and it would be great for all to see , if possible .

Giving 5 year warranty is truly beyond what 99 % of breeders offer (and I am not including BYB's here at all !!!!!!!!!! ) *and it only shows her integrity and that she firmly stands behind her dogs and the HEALTH of her breeding stock. *

And THAT is what Contract is all about - WHAT breeder stands for !!!!!!!!!

Yes, things can happen , but if you have a breeder like Ora behind you, than you know that in times like this you will have a support AND replacement puppy or the refund - or the choice even to keep the original puppy !

Having a puppy with displastic hips before 24 mos is DEFINITELY asking for a refund or replacement or monetary help - development of rare and unpredictable condition just can not be covered or warranted "not to happen" and this does not require compensation IMO. Support - absolutely though !!!!


----------



## Winnow

whitepoodles said:


> Winnow:
> 
> How much does it cost you to purchase this type of insurance and offer it to all your puppy clients? Finland I believe is in Krons? not Euro, right ?


I live in Iceland 

I pay 85 USD for each pup. 
Thats life insurance for the price of the pup and health insurance.


----------



## whitepoodles

I am a true minimalist. 

I do not believe in vaccinations period EXCEPT for the first two Core vaccines

Distemper and Parvo, nothing else.

ParaInfluenza and Hepatitis are virtually a disappearing act. NO one has heard of these latter for years.. The killers are Distemper and Parvo.

Bordatella should be given to the dog only if they frequent doggy parks, dog shows, obedience venues . otherwise no need to.

I have raised my foundation female to SIXTEEN years old and for standard poodles most of you know that this is a very old age to have a standard live to.

She was not vaccinated after 1 year old and NO rabies given to her. She had the basic two core vaccine sets and nothing afterwards.

She lived to 16 healthy and autoimmune problem free.

I recommend only 2 core vaccines 1 month apart starting a 9 weeks of age with IF needed the 1 year Rabies vaccines done ONLY at 6 mos. old and not before and never in combination with the core vaccine.

I ask my clients to ask their vets to separate the vaccinations and only give DP (distemper and parvo) NOT parainfluenza and hepatitis and also not corona

I take my chances on Leptospirosis as I dont believe the vaccine covers all Lepto strains. .. I had a client whose dog was vaccinated for Lepto and came down with severe Leptospirosis which just proves that the current vaccine while covering some lepto starins does not cover all.

The dog at 10 years old recovered but it took sometime. Luckily his immune system was strong which afforded him full recovery and not death. Had his immune system been compromised he will of surely succumbed to Lepto.

Vaccines especially in standard poodles who are KNOWN to have weak immune systems can and does creat havoc. 

My vet will never fight me on this subject and knows better than to.

My clients are asked not to vaccinate their puppies except for the protocol I suggest them follow and if they dont , they are on their own, I would either not sell them a puppy or will not extend to them my 5 years writtten health guarantee.

There are vets who comment negatively and skeptically about my vaccination protocol and say to the client that I do not know what I am talking about.. I say fine.. but I the proof with which to rebuttle the vet's statement, I have dogs whom I sold who enjoy todate a health life at 14 years of age and they have had minimal vaccinations and only very early on...


----------



## whitepoodles

Winnow said:


> I live in Iceland
> 
> I pay 85 USD for each pup.
> Thats live insurance for the price of the pup and health insurance.


Winnow

This is so interesting and helpful to know. What do you mean by* live *insuranance and then you mention *Health* insurance.. How do they differ ? or are they the same?

The amount you quoted is very reasonable.. Does this type of insurance cover all ailments the dog may come down with or is specific to certain but not all?

What is the % amount the client has to pay vis a vis what the Insurance company reimburses the client for their vet bills ?

Does it cover already existing ailments or (new) unforseen ones that crop up.

Also and it may be a private (personal) question but what is the average price for a pet quality standard poodle puppy in your country.

If you note I am not asking you personally what you are charging I am asking what is the price for a puppy in general in your country.


----------



## whitepoodles

wishpoo said:


> Alllll of the above should be very clearly stipulated in the Sale Contract !!!
> 
> That is why I repeat over and over to future buyers - NEVER buy a dog without a contract
> 
> Some argue that contract is of no value since it can be "broken" but let me tell you - so far I never saw disparity between the breeder and the way contract was written !!! If the contract was "shabby" than the breeding and health testing were of the same level of care. If contract was in detail and written in legal terms - breeder was very educated and up to detail person who knew what he/she was talking about and stood firmly behind it.
> 
> If I see "warranty for anything genetic" - it is too broad of a term, for example - absolutely NOT able to be enforced since every single trait is "genetic" - now if dog has sensitive guts and has diarrhea every 5 days and is prone to allergies - is it also covered - NOT, of course.
> 
> Breeder has to put down on paper in very clear way WHAT is covered and in what period. The ONLY things IMO that can be guaranteed with some great certainty and probability are conditions like hip and eye problems, SA, vWD, Thyroid, Addisons and some heart problems and possibly JRD (although that test is still not as precise as it should be).
> 
> All other conditions as are autoimmune ones would be VERY hard to cover or guaranteed (again IMO) since they do can develop in perfectly healthy animal and NOT develop in predisposed one (same as with humans). Than - those conditions would be in category "*rap happens".
> 
> Conditions that have clear genetic connection and very high incidence of happening in the next generation (as if 2 dogs with bad hips are bread or with bad eyes) , etc. - THOSE should be covered by warranty by all means since they can be very well avoided by careful screening and NOT breeding animals that are not at least 2 years old.
> 
> It seems that Ora might have the contract that is very specific and of excellent quality and it would be great for all to see , if possible .
> 
> Giving 5 year warranty is truly beyond what 99 % of breeders offer (and I am not including BYB's here at all !!!!!!!!!! ) *and it only shows her integrity and that she firmly stands behind her dogs and the HEALTH of her breeding stock. *And THAT is what Contract is all about - WHAT breeder stands for !!!!!!!!!
> 
> Yes, things can happen , but if you have a breeder like Ora behind you, than you know that in times like this you will have a support AND replacement puppy or the refund - or the choice even to keep the original puppy !
> 
> Having a puppy with displastic hips before 24 mos is DEFINITELY asking for a refund or replacement or monetary help - development of rare and unpredictable condition just can not be covered or warranted "not to happen" and this does not require compensation IMO. Support - absolutely though !!!!


Wishpoo:

I was told I am NUTS to give such a guarantee and I maintain todate that it is correct to give this amount. It more or less is half the life of the dog.

I have to admit that I do not stop at genetic ailments only.

I did have 3 client whose dogs died of cancer at age 8 , 10 and 11. The client was literally devastated. They were all wonderful owners and took care of their dogs to the final end spending a fortune on chemo and radiation

This shows not only comittment and devotion to their dogs (RIP) but also the undying love no expense spared they demonstarted for thier companions.

I attended the euthanasia of two of these dogs and cried together with the clients at the vet's clinic, and with the other over the phone (for days consoling her and lending her an ear and shoulder).

Having known how well these people took care of their dogs I offered to give them a puppy from a fututre litter and told them I would not take a no from them. 

Today they have the puppies at no cost to them and I am glad I have done this because it left these clients with a good feeling and knowing that not only was thier breeder available and willing to partake in their pain but also lessen it by offering another puppy at no extra cost to them.

Did I lose money , You bet I did !

Did I have satisfaction for my decision, You betcha !

I also wanted to point out that my contract states that in such case the dog comes down with a genetic ailment then the client will be more than welcome to return the dog if they so wish and a replacement puppy will be offered to them at no extra cost.
At the same time and since I know most people love their dogs and do not want to return them back to the breeder I offer an additional clause which states that if the client wishes to keep the genetically compromised dog and not tender him/her back to me, then I still will place another puppy in their home at no extra cost to them.... so that they can enjoy another puppy without paying for it and still be able to keep their sick dog if they so wish.

A note here: Recently I had a client put down thier 9 yrs. old dog due to cancer. Knowing how much they loved the dog, I offered them a puppy at no extra cost. They wanted to purchase a new puppy from me and refused my offer for a free puppy. Their reason was that they do not consider Cancer as a genetic ailment as such did not feel that there was anyting genetically wrong with their dog. Inspite of my insistance that they get a puppy for free, they insisted to pay for the new pup which I had no choice but to accept.

Just because a guarantee states 5 years , I dont necessarily always follow it. At times, I go beyond the 5 years and make my decisions based on how I feel about certain clients.


----------



## Fluffyspoos

Whitepoodles, I admire you so much


----------



## pudel luv

whitepoodles said:


> At the same time and since I know most people love their dogs and do not want to return them back to the breeder I offer an additional clause which states that if the client wishes to keep the genetically compromised dog and not tender him/her back to me, then I still will place another puppy in their home at no extra cost to them.... so that they can enjoy another puppy without paying for it and still be able to keep their sick dog if they so wish.


 WOW, this is truly astounding. What unparalleled compassion !


----------



## Winnow

whitepoodles said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Winnow
> 
> This is so interesting and helpful to know. What do you mean by* live *insuranance and then you mention *Health* insurance.. How do they differ ? or are they the same?
> 
> The amount you quoted is very reasonable.. Does this type of insurance cover all ailments the dog may come down with or is specific to certain but not all?
> 
> What is the % amount the client has to pay vis a vis what the Insurance company reimburses the client for their vet bills ?
> 
> Does it cover already existing ailments or (new) unforseen ones that crop up.
> 
> Also and it may be a private (personal) question but what is the average price for a pet quality standard poodle puppy in your country.
> 
> If you note I am not asking you personally what you are charging I am asking what is the price for a puppy in general in your country.


Sorry my bad English :S

Life insurance is if the dogs dies, then you get your money back.
Health insurance is for the vet bills
you pay the vet bill up to 60 USD then the insurance takes the rest.

They do not cover already existing ailments. But if the pup is healthy in his 8 week check up then he is covered for almost everything.

The pups go from 840 - 2500 USD all breeds
I sell mine for 1500 USD


----------



## Penjilum-Poodles

whitepoodles said:


> Wishpoo:
> 
> I was told I am NUTS to give such a guarantee and I maintain todate that it is correct to give this amount. It more or less is half the life of the dog.
> 
> I have to admit that I do not stop at genetic ailments only.
> 
> I did have 3 client whose dogs died of cancer at age 8 , 10 and 11. The client was literally devastated. They were all wonderful owners and took care of their dogs to the final end spending a fortune on chemo and radiation
> 
> This shows not only comittment and devotion to their dogs (RIP) but also the undying love no expense spared they demonstarted for thier companions.
> 
> I attended the euthanasia of two of these dogs and cried together with the clients at the vet's clinic, and with the other over the phone (for days consoling her and lending her an ear and shoulder).
> 
> Having known how well these people took care of their dogs I offered to give them a puppy from a fututre litter and told them I would not take a no from them.
> 
> Today they have the puppies at no cost to them and I am glad I have done this because it left these clients with a good feeling and knowing that not only was thier breeder available and willing to partake in their pain but also lessen it by offering another puppy at no extra cost to them.
> 
> Did I lose money , You bet I did !
> 
> Did I have satisfaction for my decision, You betcha !
> 
> I also wanted to point out that my contract states that in such case the dog comes down with a genetic ailment then the client will be more than welcome to return the dog if they so wish and a replacement puppy will be offered to them at no extra cost.
> At the same time and since I know most people love their dogs and do not want to return them back to the breeder I offer an additional clause which states that if the client wishes to keep the genetically compromised dog and not tender him/her back to me, then I still will place another puppy in their home at no extra cost to them.... so that they can enjoy another puppy without paying for it and still be able to keep their sick dog if they so wish.


Ora, there are not many breeders who would be so kind, loving, considerate and supportive as you are. This just prooves how dedicated you are to your Standard Poodles and your puppy buyers. What you did was out of pure kindness. 

I think the same as you, many breeders will offer a contract that the owner needs to return the dog in order to have a replacement puppy, but how can a person expect someone to give up a beloved family member that has been apart of their lives and heart?
I too offered in my contracts the choice of keeping their furkid, and recieving another at no cost.


----------



## puppylove

WhitePoodles, 
I've said it before - I would love to have one of your babies. Maybe some day.


----------



## whitepoodles

Penjilum-Poodles said:


> Ora, there are not many breeders who would be so kind, loving, considerate and supportive as you are. This just prooves how dedicated you are to your Standard Poodles and your puppy buyers. What you did was out of pure kindness.
> 
> I think the same as you, many breeders will offer a contract that the owner needs to return the dog in order to have a replacement puppy, but how can a person expect someone to give up a beloved family member that has been apart of their lives and heart?
> *I too offered in my contracts the choice of keeping their furkid, and recieving another at no cost.*




Penjilum:

This is great.. I thought I was the only nutty one... 

But honestly I dont know any other way. We must put ourselves in our clients' positions, and feel as they do, if this was to happen to us

People at times forget to look at the other side and feel for others.

My husband says I am the worst business woman he has ever met.hwell:

He is right, but this is because I do not treat breeding as a business, but a passion.


----------



## whitepoodles

Winnow:

Thanks for the explanation. It is very interesting and indeed the extra $85 you offer your clients with the puppy purchase is good practice.

May I ask if the $85.00 is a one time payment which covers the dog for life or does the client have to renew the insurance and start paying the Ins.company themselves after the initial $85.00 offered by you? 

YOu also state that if the dog dies the client is refunded the money.. Who refunds them the cost of the puppy, you or the insurance company?

This is confusing to me so please forgive the many questions.


----------



## Penjilum-Poodles

whitepoodles said:


> [/COLOR][/B]
> 
> Penjilum:
> 
> This is great.. I thought I was the only nutty one...
> 
> But honestly I dont know any other way. We must put ourselves in our clients' positions, and feel as they do, if this was to happen to us
> 
> People at times forget to look at the other side and feel for others.
> 
> My husband says I am the worst business woman he has ever met.
> 
> He is right, but this is because I do not treat breeding as a business, but a passion.


lol, guess that makes us two nuts! 
Exactly, i put myself in their shoes and how i would feel in their position.

It's a passion, love, and _that_ over comes alot of things.


----------



## Olie

I think there are breeders out there that do have health guarantees, and a few for a lifetime on genetic illnesses. They key as in this story is the breeder backing up their own contracts. I am hoping this breeder has contacted this owner by now. 

Ora, I think that the offer of allowing the dog owner to keep the sick pet with another replacement is an excellent incentive should something happen. This is where I see many pitfalls were the owner does not want to part with the pet, nor the cost if the pet needs shipped back, its kind of a lose lose for the owner. 

Breeding is not easy and I don't think all breeders are bad. Its just far and few in between when you find a great one as yourself Ora. I am so glad you joined this forum.


----------



## whitepoodles

Beach girl said:


> Wow. That is really interesting. I didn't think it was anything more than an aggravation when Casey had his vomiting/diarrhea episodes for a day or two after his final rabies shot. Now I'm scared...
> 
> Will definitely bring it up with the vet when his next shot is due.
> 
> Do you titer your cat, to see if she still has the antibodies? Sometimes vaccines last a lot longer than the standard predicted times.


Beachgirl:

I know of someone who purchased her poodle elsewhere (not from me).
We became friends. 

She told me her poodle has epileptic seizures but for the past year hasnt had a single episode which I was happy to hear. He is not on Potas.promide or any other meds. since the episodes are very infrequent.

A month ago she emailed to say that she is going with her dog to the vet for his ANNUAL exam and shots. I said what annual, do you give your dog annual core vaccines.. She said yes. 

I told her not to go or give any vaccination to her FIVE years old dog as he no longer needs them, he is fully protected and given he is epileptic it is strongly advisable not to vaccinate for Rabies or any other vaccine.

She didnt listen and she opted to "trust and believe" in her vet.

Two weeks later she emailed very upset telling me "I should of listened to you" he had a terrible grand mal seizure it was awful.

I did not tell her "I told you so" although I was highly tempted.

I did suggest to her to go to her vet and give him a piece of her mind and send him back to the drawing board.

I find some vets are, either needle pushers and care only for their pocket , or

They lack knowledge and do not update themselves enough to be able to be au current on all topics to include adverse reactions to medications and specifically to vaccinations.

Then there are vets who work with both their clients and breeders and who do not pretend to be gods.

I titre my dogs every 3-4 years and inspite of them being vaccinated only as puppies, the ones that are 4-5 years old still have very high antibody levels 

Parvo and Distemper are the ones that worry me, not the others such as Parainfluenza Hepatitis and Corona... (virtually non existent)


----------



## wishpoo

> Breeding is not easy and I don't think all breeders are bad. Its just far and few in between when you find a great one as yourself Ora. I am so glad you joined this forum.


Yes- absolutely true. Unfortunately VERY VERY far and in between :smow:

If one takes all that Ora does in general - all health testing, not breeding before time, breeding bitch 3 times at most, showing, giving literary life-time warranty on "anything" (!!!!!!!) , taking care of the temperament also - than I must say she would be 1 in 10,000 breeders at best LOL !!!!!

Some days I have to read her posts 2 or 3 times and wonder if I really see what I see :beauty:. Thought that breeders like her are like Unicorns LOL, everybody talks about them but never see them in real life LOL

I still can not believe that she is real  - can somebody confirm her existence please  ???? JK JK LOL


----------



## Winnow

whitepoodles said:


> Winnow:
> 
> Thanks for the explanation. It is very interesting and indeed the extra $85 you offer your clients with the puppy purchase is good practice.
> 
> May I ask if the $85.00 is a one time payment which covers the dog for life or does the client have to renew the insurance and start paying the Ins.company themselves after the initial $85.00 offered by you?
> 
> YOu also state that if the dog dies the client is refunded the money.. Who refunds them the cost of the puppy, you or the insurance company?
> 
> This is confusing to me so please forgive the many questions.


This is just for one year. After the first year the puppy owner takes over the insurance or not his choice although I highly recommend it.
If the puppy dies the insurance company pays the price of the pup.

Ask all you want


----------



## Penjilum-Poodles

wishpoo said:


> Yes- absolutely true. Unfortunately VERY VERY far and in between :smow:
> 
> If one takes all that Ora does in general - all health testing, not breeding before time, breeding bitch 3 times at most, showing, giving literary life-time warranty on "anything" (!!!!!!!) , taking care of the temperament also - than I must say she would be 1 in 10,000 breeders at best LOL !!!!!
> 
> *Some days I have to read her posts 2 or 3 times and wonder if I really see what I see :beauty:. Thought that breeders like her are like Unicorns LOL, everybody talks about them but never see them in real life LOL
> 
> I still can not believe that she is real - can somebody confirm her existence please ???? JK JK LOL*


 Yes i believe she is truly real...


----------



## Beach girl

*Whitepoodles*, given how you feel about vaccines, do you sell your poodles to U.S. customers? We are required to vaccinate for rabies every 3 years, same for distemper/parvo. (Not sure if this varies by state.) I have to register my dogs, and to register them, I have to send in proof of vaccination from the vet. Actually the vet forwards the p. of v. directly from their office to the state registration folks.

If I want to take training classes at my local parks and recreation dept. (which I do), I have to show proof of vaccination and proof of registration. Sometimes when we travel, the hotels that allow dogs want to see a registration tag on the dog's collar. So really there is just no getting around it; the only way I could avoid vaccines is if I lived like a hermit with my dogs.

Pippin's rabies shot is due now, actually. Thankfully Casey's is still a long time off.


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## spoospirit

_Very hard to answer those questions without knowing more.

I would send a letter registered mail, return receipt requested to the breeder and give it a couple of weeks to rule out that they may be away on vacation. If I received the receipt and a dialogue was opened up, I would give the breeder all of the information I had on the puppy, its illness, any medical assessments backed up by proof of cause of death. I would expect to have to provide proof of cause of death. Then I would see where it went from there. But, most of all, I would expect my breeder to be available, sympathetic and willing to work with me. It is traumatic enough to loose a member of your family without feeling as if your loss is not even acknowledged.__

If the mail was not accepted, or was accepted but not acknowledged, then I would know exactly where I stood with my breeder! In a case like that, I wouldn't expect that they would be willing to listen to my pain or to compensate, if it is in the contract to do so. Hard life lesson to learn. 

If it is in the contract that the cause of death is covered and the breeder is refusing to acknowledge this fact, then I would go in Pinky's direction.

What to expect for compensation, if any, would depend on the contents of the contract and the cause of death. No knowing what is in that contract, it is impossible to offer an opinion. It would only be a guess and that isn't a fact.

I find the whole subject of guaranteeing puppies to be extremely variable. Although I would expect to guarantee my puppies against the common problems in poodles that we test for, I can't see how it would make sense to guarantee a puppy against all genetic issues that may come up in their lifetime. 

I can say that I will follow the puppies that we sell and want to hear from their owner's, good or bad, young and old; by e-mail, snail mail or phone. If there is a problem with my puppies, the only way I am going to know about it and be able to address it is if the puppy owners let me know. I will cry with them when it is time for their dog to go to the rainbow bridge not matter what the reason.

I expect to offer a refund or another puppy if one is disabled or passes due to complications of the common issues we test for. I would certainly take an ailing puppy back and replace it too; but, we know most owners are bonded to them and most likely will not want to go that route.

Whitepoodles...you are very generous in your contract coverage, and good for your puppy buyers. I would be very reluctant to offer a new puppy or refund for a dog who has developed cancer later in years. Cancer is one of those ailments that can be caused by a myriad of things. But, I would certainly be there with a shoulder for them. 

Every breeder has their own reasons why they do what they do. We are all individuals. We are all trying to achieve the same goals in breeding programs but business is very individual. Contracts range from none to very elaborate.

I believe that clients need to educate themselves as much as possible before choosing a breeder (notice I didn't say a puppy.) It will make all the difference in the their life and the life of their puppy. Even with the best efforts to find the right breeder and contract for themselves, they can still make a bad choice. Nothing and no one is perfect and things are not always disclosed. The most you can do in a situation like that is educate others about the breeder and chalk it up to a very unfortunate life experience.

And, as Whitepoodles said...there is always that special bond with really good, responsible owner's that will affect a decision as well. After all, we are human.

These are my thoughts based on the information available in this situation.
_


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Just to let you all know, I just called the lady whose puppy passed away and she and her husband have given up. They have given up the idea of being compensated in any way, which I am sure is a relief to the breeder. She is still very sad, but is thankful for the time they had with their boy and now just wants to put it to rest and look forward to their new pup without all of the stress of trying to fight for something they will likely not get. She feels it is healthier for them to do this rather than to fight and be angry. They know what is best for them.


----------



## Lilah+Jasper

Beach girl said:


> Do you titer your cat, to see if she still has the antibodies? Sometimes vaccines last a lot longer than the standard predicted times.


I am unfamiliar with the term "titer". Google is my friend - be right back...


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## thestars

That is sad news to hear they have given up. I would gladly facilitate a resolution amicable to both the seller and buyer in this situation. Please pass on my contact information to this couple. Or PM me with her name and number and I'll call her and offer my help.


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## CharismaticMillie

This is an interesting question posed in this thread. It is a difficult call - what the breeder should do. I definitely think that some kind of compensation is needed. 

I think of it like this. Henry had bloat/torsion at 23 months - he could have died. We were incredibly lucky that he is still with us. Had he died, what would I have expected from the breeder? There is bloat behind his dam so it could be argued that it was familial. However, that cannot be proven. I would have expected some kind of compensation from the breeder, but probably not a replacement puppy.

But the case presented in this thread is a little different. If it can be proven that the pup died from a genetic disease, then I do think a minimum of a 50% refund on the dog is what I would personally expect.

JMO


----------



## whitepoodles

Olie;117817 said:


> I think that the offer of allowing the dog owner to keep the sick pet with another replacement is an excellent incentive should something happen. This is where I see many pitfalls were the owner does not want to part with the pet, nor the cost if the pet needs shipped back, its kind of a lose lose for the owner.
> Olie:
> 
> The reason SOME breeders force the client to return the sick puppy and only then replace the puppy with another is because they know and count on the fact that most pet owners are so attached to their puppy they will never dream of returning the pup back to the breeder no matter the illness.
> 
> When this happens and the client refuses to return the sick pup to the breeder, the breeder is then absolved from giving the client another puppy (at no cost to the client).. That means the breeder can sell the puppy and wash their hands from ever sending a new one to the client who opted to keep the sick pup.
> 
> I always get so upset when I read some contracts which stipulate that a replacement puppy will be given to the owner ONLY IF THEY TENDER the sick puppy back to the breeder...
> 
> We are not dealing here with selling shirts, they are living breathing animals to whom clients get attached.


----------



## whitepoodles

Wishpoo:

Yes I am real and believe it or not there are many like me out there but they are small , not huge operations, and call ourselves hobby breeders, breeding at most 1-2 litters per year... stay low key and dont attempt to push our puppies on pet clients to show or try selling show puppies to the general public in an attempt to finish several champions out of a litter whether they are show worthy or not.

Breeders like us do a quality rather than quantity breeding, and dont particularly care how many champions are added to our kennel prefix each passing year but concentrate much more on the pet clients and the quality of health and temperament our breeding program produces overall. 

We also put ourselves in our clients' shoes and provide solid aftersale service always taking into account our clients' feelings and needs.

We stay in contact with our clients and insist on them staying in contact with us so that we can keep tabs on every puppy we produce and encourage our clients to stay in touch and update us periodically on their puppies and/or adult dogs progress.

We do professional temperament testing on our puppies , so that we can find the best possible match for each client, and not rely only on our perception of which puppy will fit where since we are subjective and a puppy during temp. testing will behave differently if the breeder were to do the test and not a person whom the pups never met before, or be tested in an area they never been before.

We are happy when the client loves their dog and is content with them and devastated when the client calls us with a sad tale of loss.

We dont try pretending we do not produce health issues in our line and do not sweep genetic dirt under the rug like some would.

We are responsible for the puppy until the end of their natural life inspite of the fact that ownership changed hands physically and legally.

And.. yes, there are many like us out there and the reason some would miss us is because some people who frequent dog shows and the net in search of a puppy, are more impressed by the the numerous ribbons and championship titles breeders amass rather than the health and temperament in their breeding program.

I attend PCA Nationals almost every year and in the last few years while sitting in the bleachers watching the classes I have heard numerous statement made by people sitting besides us at the show saying:
"Oh this dog is beautiful , he is a top winner, I will breed my bitch to him" 

Top Winner....Beautiful..... Granted.. Now what about health and temperament in his lineage? Why is this no longer AS frequently discussed as the beauty part anymore ??


----------



## whitepoodles

Beach girl said:


> *Whitepoodles*, given how you feel about vaccines, do you sell your poodles to U.S. customers? We are required to vaccinate for rabies every 3 years, same for distemper/parvo. (Not sure if this varies by state.) I have to register my dogs, and to register them, I have to send in proof of vaccination from the vet. Actually the vet forwards the p. of v. directly from their office to the state registration folks.
> 
> If I want to take training classes at my local parks and recreation dept. (which I do), I have to show proof of vaccination and proof of registration. Sometimes when we travel, the hotels that allow dogs want to see a registration tag on the dog's collar. So really there is just no getting around it; the only way I could avoid vaccines is if I lived like a hermit with my dogs.
> 
> Pippin's rabies shot is due now, actually. Thankfully Casey's is still a long time off.


Beachgirl:

Yes I do sell my pet puppies to U.S. Clients, but the majority of my clients are Canadian. 

I never said I do not vaccinate. I do. What I did say is that I avoid OVER vaccinating my dogs and suggest my clients do the same. 

My contract stipulates 2 core vaccines (DHPP) a month apart and in between Bordatella, following which I advise the client to only do titres.

Some states (U.S.) insist on Rabies so I have no choice but to tell the client that they can do the rabies if the state requires it and do offer to uphold my health guarantee in this case.

In Canada it is not required , only if one wishes to take their dog over the border to the U.S. and in this case there are solutions. Many Handlers use these solutions and it works well for them 

So yes, I do two core vaccines and Bordatella only...I would do Rabies at 6 mos. IF I ABSOLUTELY MUST following which I will not repeat any vaccination but only do titres.

I never experienced any difficulty with clients upholding my contract in respect to the vaccination protocol and I never heard anyone call me to say puppy school or the state forces me to vaccinate every 3 years and give Rabies every year or 3 years... or else I can not attend obedience school or go to day care.

I live in a country where the points you mentioned in your email are not mandatory and the U.S. clients to whom my puppies are sold never asked me to revamp my vaccination protocol or mentioned they could not register their puppies in obedience school or go to doggy parks if they dont show proof of vaccinations.

Is it possible that your area is very strict about all the points you mentioned?

I travel to dog shows, both, in Canada and in the U.S., I was NEVER asked by any hotel/motel, both in canada and the U.S. to show proof of vaccination during the past 16 years I am breeding and exhibiting my dogs.

My handler never mentioned she was asked for this proof either.

I would dread living in an area which forces me or a client to have to vaccinate a dog every three years or else I can not attend doggy parks, obedience school or other activities with my dogs.

It is so sad that your state forces you to have these vaccines given to your dogs every 3 years. Maybe knowledgeable vets in your area who care should speak out about the horrible effects overvaccination can have on a standard poodle's fragile immune system. 

Or... maybe dog owners in your state should get together and petition against these by laws in your state.. Just a though.

I would rather forgo all these wonderful activities with my dogs and opt to have them live a healthy life instead.


----------



## whitepoodles

*These are my thoughts based on the information available in this situation.
[/I][/QUOTE]*[/COLOR]

Spoospirit:

I REALLY liked reading your post.

I have no doubt that once you embark on a breeding program you will be a great asset to the breed.

I have always enjoyed reading your posts, especially the ones dealing with performance you do with your dogs.

YES I know I should not have given a puppy (actually 2) for free in compensation for the dogs that succumbed to cancer but as you said later in your post...quote: "there is always that special bond with really good, responsible owners , that will affect a decision, as well...." close quote.

This is true and precisely why I took this decision. Honestly I feel richer than I would of felt had I put the $ in my pocket.


----------



## neVar

wp around here (sask) lmost all daycares etc require 'vaccine certs from the vet nd most vtes will only sign 1x a year  gotta pay for new shots each time. i just finally found one who is every 3 year type vet. and will sign certs for it. 

it is fairly rediculous- but from a business owner it's hard to get proof (and verify it) when people havn't vaccinated a dog in 5-6 years etc.


----------



## whitepoodles

Nevar:
Really this is in SK ?? wow, Not hear. Not in Que. 

I have sold many puppies with my vaccination protocol and not a single client was turned down by a puppy obedience school or doggy park .

I guess by laws in Que. are not as strict as some areas when it comes to vaccinating our dogs.

YEARLY vaccines.. my goodness this is ancient practice and the vets know it is not necessary, but Hey.. great for thier pockets.


----------



## Olie

Yes it is true in SC as well in regards to proof of vaccinations - but not all, just required by law-which I do, and I am getting Suri the bordatella for her agility classes. The trainer didn't care when it was her and her dog and me and mine - but the people who own the field require this.hwell: 

Both dog parks I frequent do not require any records. I am not sure how they would regulate that?? Very Odd. 

I elect NOT having all the others. The Vet pushes this every time we are in he is nice enough but he is not a fan of raw either, but he goes on and on about healthy the dogs are and that their teeth are amazing. Go figure. 

I am still looking not real active but always looking for new vet, one who knows poodles a bit more.


----------



## spoospirit

whitepoodles said:


> [QUOTE=Olie;117817]I think that the offer of allowing the dog owner to keep the sick pet with another replacement is an excellent incentive should something happen. This is where I see many pitfalls were the owner does not want to part with the pet, nor the cost if the pet needs shipped back, its kind of a lose lose for the owner.
> Olie:
> 
> The reason SOME breeders force the client to return the sick puppy and only then replace the puppy with another is because they know and count on the fact that most pet owners are so attached to their puppy they will never dream of returning the pup back to the breeder no matter the illness.
> 
> When this happens and the client refuses to return the sick pup to the breeder, the breeder is then absolved from giving the client another puppy (at no cost to the client).. That means the breeder can sell the puppy and wash their hands from ever sending a new one to the client who opted to keep the sick pup.
> 
> I always get so upset when I read some contracts which stipulate that a replacement puppy will be given to the owner ONLY IF THEY TENDER the sick puppy back to the breeder...
> 
> We are not dealing here with selling shirts, they are living breathing animals to whom clients get attached.


_This, of course, is quite unethical in our view and we would never think of doing this to a client. As was mentioned earlier, the ethics of a person is what they will bring to their breeding program and dictate how they will interact with their clients._


----------



## CharismaticMillie

whitepoodles said:


> Beachgirl:
> 
> Yes I do sell my pet puppies to U.S. Clients, but the majority of my clients are Canadian.
> 
> I never said I do not vaccinate. I do. What I did say is that I avoid OVER vaccinating my dogs and suggest my clients do the same.
> 
> My contract stipulates 2 core vaccines (DHPP) a month apart and in between Bordatella, following which I advise the client to only do titres.
> 
> Some states (U.S.) insist on Rabies so I have no choice but to tell the client that they can do the rabies if the state requires it and do offer to uphold my health guarantee in this case.
> 
> In Canada it is not required , only if one wishes to take their dog over the border to the U.S. and in this case there are solutions. Many Handlers use these solutions and it works well for them
> 
> So yes, I do two core vaccines and Bordatella only...I would do Rabies at 6 mos. IF I ABSOLUTELY MUST following which I will not repeat any vaccination but only do titres.
> 
> I never experienced any difficulty with clients upholding my contract in respect to the vaccination protocol and I never heard anyone call me to say puppy school or the state forces me to vaccinate every 3 years and give Rabies every year or 3 years... or else I can not attend obedience school or go to day care.
> 
> I live in a country where the points you mentioned in your email are not mandatory and the U.S. clients to whom my puppies are sold never asked me to revamp my vaccination protocol or mentioned they could not register their puppies in obedience school or go to doggy parks if they dont show proof of vaccinations.
> 
> Is it possible that your area is very strict about all the points you mentioned?
> 
> I travel to dog shows, both, in Canada and in the U.S., I was NEVER asked by any hotel/motel, both in canada and the U.S. to show proof of vaccination during the past 16 years I am breeding and exhibiting my dogs.
> 
> My handler never mentioned she was asked for this proof either.
> 
> I would dread living in an area which forces me or a client to have to vaccinate a dog every three years or else I can not attend doggy parks, obedience school or other activities with my dogs.
> 
> It is so sad that your state forces you to have these vaccines given to your dogs every 3 years. Maybe knowledgeable vets in your area who care should speak out about the horrible effects overvaccination can have on a standard poodle's fragile immune system.
> 
> Or... maybe dog owners in your state should get together and petition against these by laws in your state.. Just a though.
> 
> I would rather forgo all these wonderful activities with my dogs and opt to have them live a healthy life instead.


All of the hotels in my area that allow dogs technically say that they require proof of vaccination. However, I stayed in a a few hotels several times with my dogs the past few weeks (refinishing hardwood floor) and never once did I have to provide any sort of certification. 

Most dog parks, grooming shops, daycares and even events (dog swim events) require proof of vaccination. 

So does titering mean that you measure the level of immunity? If it ever turned out that the level of immunity was not sufficient (which you explained has never happened) would you then re-immunize?

This is very interesting to me, WP! I agree that overvaccination should be avoided.


----------



## spoospirit

_Dianne and I are also leary of the amount of vaccinations given to dogs. We are assessing what vaccinations we want to give to our puppies and which we will forgo now. There is definitely a down side to over vaccination.

In the states, there are places that you cannot go if you cannot produce proof of rabies vaccination, and that includes the facilities visited doing therapy work. It is also required to license your dog. In our town, you are required to do so or your dog will be taken by the dog officer. It is unfortunate that we do not have a choice in this. At least we have gone to the three year vaccine now and not a yearly one.

I wonder where these people live in the states that have not said anything about the requirement for rabies vaccination? Where ever I have been, it is the law.
_


----------



## rubymom

Whitepoodles, you are my dream breeder! I would feel so secure to get a poodle from you because you CARE! You show your care and concern for the health and happiness of your poodles in the manner that you conduct your business as well as in the way you state your position! 
Wish you lived close to me!


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## wishpoo

Yes, I would also like to hear from people form California !!! I know that when I was checking dog- boarding facilities - they all required Rabies shot proof for any dog older than 5 mos :wacko: and also only "fixed" dogs were allowed (I am against super early spaying/neutering ) It all was "out of question in my book" :smow: but wonder what options person has than ???

*Ora*- if a client can not adhere to your vacc. protocol, do you withhold all warranty , or only regarding auto-immune disorders :rolffleyes:? Thanks


----------



## Beach girl

> Is it possible that your area is very strict about all the points you mentioned?


Very possible. This is Fairfax County, VA. They are strict about all sorts of things, not just dog-related issues. However, I don't think they are unusual in that respect. My summer home is in North Carolina, and I am required to have the same proof of vaccines, etc. My VA registration is ok for NC purposes, as providing proof. I have had to take my dogs to the local vet here a time or two, and they want to see that VA tag.

Dog parks don't require proof of vaccination, since they are very informal, but if you are on county property, then yes, you have to have proof. The vet's boarding facility, agility/obedience classes offered either through the county or privately, groomers, anyone official like that, requires proof. We have gone to every three years, at least, which is better than every year.

If your dog should bite anyone, you are at much more risk of the dog being taken away if it does not have proper vet records. (I think - not absolutely sure about this. I've never had a dog inclined to bite anybody.)

When we travel, we use Holiday Inn or Best Western quite a bit, as they are more likely to allow dogs. According to the AAA travel book, proof of vaccination is "required." I have never been asked to show a piece of paper, but often I have had to give the desk clerk the registration number on the dog's tag. Not always, though. However, their tags are obvious; I have noticed even when the clerks don't jot down the number, they look and I'm sure notice that the tags are present.

I wonder, *whitepoodles,* if your U.S. clients know for a fact that their county or state requires more vaccination than you like to see, but they just keep mum about it, in order to get the dog they want. So they just don't mention it, figuring they will likely never have to make a claim against you based on their dog's health, anyway.


----------



## whitepoodles

spoospirit said:


> _Dianne and I are also leary of the amount of vaccinations given to dogs. We are assessing what vaccinations we want to give to our puppies and which we will forgo now. There is definitely a down side to over vaccination.
> 
> In the states, there are places that you cannot go if you cannot produce proof of rabies vaccination, and that includes the facilities visited doing therapy work. It is also required to license your dog. In our town, you are required to do so or your dog will be taken by the dog officer. It is unfortunate that we do not have a choice in this. At least we have gone to the three year vaccine now and not a yearly one.
> 
> I wonder where these people live in the states that have not said anything about the requirement for rabies vaccination? Where ever I have been, it is the law.
> _




Spoospirit:

Most of the calls I get for puppies from U.S. clients are from California (Los Angeles/San Francisco area) I never had a problem with vaccinations and proof and I know for a fact three of my clients who do not vaccinate their dogs past puppy vaccines, have taken them to obedience doggy park etc.. and never encountered any problem.. Also I have a 3 Vermont clients and none ever mentioned the difficulties with vaccination protocols that BeachGirl and you encounter. I am not surprised that in the U.S. and some parts of Canada it is mandatory but I have not been faced with this in the areas that my puppies were sold in the U.S. 
BUT as I said if there is a mandatory law in a country and the client is a wonderful home, I would tell them BEWARE and I will bring them up to speed of what can happen to their puppies in case they are vaccinated for everything under the sun and potentially come down with an autoimmune disorder.

My boy Knight was SEVERELY allergic to the Rabies vaccine. He nearly died as a 6 months old puppy when it was administered to him (first Rabies shot)
I had to drive all the way back to the vet with the right hand holding on to his swollen tongue and the other on the steering wheel and rushe him back 1/2 hour after it was given to him.. He was riddled with hives swollen face and a swollen tongue HAD my vet not been that near he would of died of anaphylactic shock.. They gave him an epinephrin shot and waited 1 hour until he came around.

Following this, A VET without mentioning name gave me a letter stating that the dog is due for Rabie in 3 years. After those 3 years, he gave me another letter stating that dog dog is due in another 3 years.

Bottom line.. I got the certificates from a certain vet who understood my concern and knew that Knight will die IF he gets another Rabies and was kind enough to supply me with these certificates when he needed to cross the border to show in the U.S. toward his Ch. title..

THIS IS WHY I put a SMILEY  when I mentioned that THERE ARE WAYS !!!
Now folks dont tell.. LOLOL


----------



## Olie

Beach girl said:


> I wonder, *whitepoodles,* if your U.S. clients know for a fact that their county or state requires more vaccination than you like to see, but they just keep mum about it, in order to get the dog they want. So they just don't mention it, figuring they will likely never have to make a claim against you based on their dog's health, anyway.


What would there be to hide, just curious? She has stated with US clients she would advice following state requirement and her request of spacing the vaccines is not a difficult thing to accomplish IMO. I am just wondering about keeping mum about it. 

Are you asking IF Ora would decline a sale because she prefers not having the vaccinations?


----------



## whitepoodles

Beach girl said:


> Very possible. This is Fairfax County, VA. They are strict about all sorts of things, not just dog-related issues. However, I don't think they are unusual in that respect. My summer home is in North Carolina, and I am required to have the same proof of vaccines, etc. My VA registration is ok for NC purposes, as providing proof. I have had to take my dogs to the local vet here a time or two, and they want to see that VA tag.
> 
> Dog parks don't require proof of vaccination, since they are very informal, but if you are on county property, then yes, you have to have proof. The vet's boarding facility, agility/obedience classes offered either through the county or privately, groomers, anyone official like that, requires proof. We have gone to every three years, at least, which is better than every year.
> 
> If your dog should bite anyone, you are at much more risk of the dog being taken away if it does not have proper vet records. (I think - not absolutely sure about this. I've never had a dog inclined to bite anybody.)
> 
> When we travel, we use Holiday Inn or Best Western quite a bit, as they are more likely to allow dogs. According to the AAA travel book, proof of vaccination is "required." I have never been asked to show a piece of paper, but often I have had to give the desk clerk the registration number on the dog's tag. Not always, though. However, their tags are obvious; I have noticed even when the clerks don't jot down the number, they look and I'm sure notice that the tags are present.
> 
> I wonder, *whitepoodles,* if your U.S. clients know for a fact that their county or state requires more vaccination than you like to see, but they just keep mum about it, in order to get the dog they want. So they just don't mention it, figuring they will likely never have to make a claim against you based on their dog's health, anyway.



Beachgirl & Olie:

It is VERY possible, I cant know 100% what a client does with their dog behind my back and ofcourse there can be clients who will tell me they will adhere to vaccination protocol and they dont.. It did happen to me but what can I do.. I can only take the horse to water but can not make it drink as they say.. I TELL ALL MY CLIENTS what they are facing when they are multiple vaccinating their dogs and I make sure to tell them that their dog's immune system can be compromised with each poison (vaccine) they are putting into their dog's system.
I will not deny a good home a dog based on this fact alone.. but I WILL let them know that I am against it. As to offering the guarantee in these cases, I dont think that I will deny it in whole, but I will tell them that they are taking a big risk., guarantee or no guarantee.


----------



## whitepoodles

wishpoo said:


> Yes, I would also like to hear from people form California !!! I know that when I was checking dog- boarding facilities - they all required Rabies shot proof for any dog older than 5 mos :wacko: and also only "fixed" dogs were allowed (I am against super early spaying/neutering ) It all was "out of question in my book" :smow: but wonder what options person has than ???
> 
> *Ora*- if a client can not adhere to your vacc. protocol, do you withhold all warranty , or only regarding auto-immune disorders :rolffleyes:? Thanks


Wishpoo:
No I do not deny a client a puppy sale IF the area they reside in has these protocols and by laws.. I would not lose a good home for this reason.

I did in past refuse to sell to people who outright told me that they are planning to vaccinate their dogs over and over again and give Lepto, and agree for their vets to give the ENTIRE cocktail vaccine and rabies together, then I will tell them to go elsewhere to buy their puppy.

I will make exceptions if the client really wants to do well by their dog but has NO other option but to vaccinate yearly. I then suggest that they do TITERS and have proof given to the authorities that their puppy has been titred and has a high level of antibodies to Distemper ,Parvo and Rabies. This is an alternative for the authorities to find out if the dog is protected instead of having to vaccinate the dog every 3 years and prove it was done.

Now.. whether the client does what I suggest or not AFTER they purchase the puppy I would not really know.. Some clients keep in close contact with me while some only email or call once every 6 months or even once a year. but still I do keep some tabs on the pups that I sell even with clients who only communicate once yearly .

It may not sound true, but I NEVER produced AIHA, THrombocytopenia, or other autoimmune issues in my line since I started breeding dogs.. I did produce the occasional Epileptic dog, but never any of the autoimmune disorders so frequently mentioned on PHR. I have been fortunate I guess maybe lack of vaccines maybe good health maybe luck.. I dont know but whatever it is has worked for me.

I will not guarantee against Epilepsy if the client vaccinates every 3 years.. If I get a call to tell me a dog of mine came down with Epilepsy first question I ask is when did they get their last shot (Rabies too) and if they got any shots at all.. IF the client tells me they continuously vaccinate the dog then I will tell them, I can cover for anything else but NOT epilepsy. 

I have had MINIMAL genetic mishaps in my dogs since I started breeding and I have trully been blessed with the majority of my dogs being healthy and long lived except for the few that succumbed to cancer at age 9 or 11.


----------



## Dogsinstyle

I'm with Ora on minimal vaccines. Especially for animals that will be bred. My thought is the constant insult of overvaccination will damage the epigenome-
this will express in future generations.
I am banking on having 5 generations with the minimal protocol maybe not restoring, but at least not further damaging the MHC.
Knock on wood, I have not had an auto-immune disease crop up.
Carole


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## Dogsinstyle

I this I've posted this before, but a facinating look (and user friendly) on the epigenome is PBS's "Ghost in your genes".
NOVA | Ghost in Your Genes | PBS
I believe there is a transcript.
Carole


----------



## whitepoodles

Dogsinstyle;118014 said:


> I'm with Ora on minimal vaccines. Especially for animals that will be bred. My thought is the constant insult of overvaccination will damage the epigenome-
> this will express in future generations.
> I am banking on having 5 generations with the minimal protocol maybe not restoring, but at least not further damaging the MHC.
> Knock on wood, I have not had an auto-immune disease crop up.
> Carole


Carol:

I am SO with you on this topic. This has been a controversial heated topic for many years and more so in recent years between breeders and veterinarians.

Lets face it most vets need to support their clinics and the equipment purchased as well as their salaried employees.

If all dog owners will know as much as we do about the damage vaccines and their repetition can cause to a dog's healthy system the vets would literally starve to death and have to close up their businesses.

I keep telling my clients the vet is NOT a god, he is just a human being with lack of knowledge as we all have.

I was shocked to learn from my WONDERFUL and MINIMALIST vet just how lacking in knowledge some vets are who profess that they are vets and know their business.

I come from a medical family/background and have been exposed to numerous conversations at home about HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) given my dad was a obs/gyn surgeon (he is dead of cancer) and he was so adamantly against administering the HRT shots to his patients inspite of the fact that this offered him making alot of money had he done it, he still had integrity and was honest with his patients telling them suffer the heat flashes but dont put poison in your body which you may end up regreting and worse, getting cancer as a result.

I guess I did sponge up my dad's ethics and choice for minimalism in my aproach to health care in this case of my dogs.

I tell all my clients.. take my instructions about vaccination protocol to you vet and IF he dare tells you that the DHPP should be combined with the Rabies than walk out to never return.

Some vets ridicule me to my clients telling them I am ONLY a breeder and breeders know nothing about dogs' health and medical issues and I tell my clients I beg to differ. Breeders many a times can teach vets about dogs because we are breed specific and we know what genetic ailments are specific to our breed.

Some vets are just so ignorant and either dont care or not interested to work with the breeder and /or the client. They feel their word is gospel and not to be challenged.

These are the vets I would stay as far away from as possible.

It took me 10 years to find the right vet and I am blessed with him.. I did tell him that if he ever moves to a different city, I am going to jump off the highest bridge. He ROFLHAO.... I go there even for a stool flotation check let alone other stuff.

I have his phone number and he will be at my back'n call whenever I need him as he knows I will never call him unless there is an emergency.

He is 32 years old a young genious and OMG ever a cutie

For the many years of state of the art care and wonderful comittment to my dogs' health I had gifted him with my boy Onyx's sister as a pet and he is very happy with her. She is the mascott of the clinic, which by the way is 24/7 and also an emergency vet center, to include a fertility section and sperm bank. I am blessed and fortunate to have him.


----------



## bigredpoodle

whitepoodles said:


> Dogsinstyle;118014 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with Ora on minimal vaccines. Especially for animals that will be bred. My thought is the constant insult of overvaccination will damage the epigenome-
> this will express in future generations.
> I am banking on having 5 generations with the minimal protocol maybe not restoring, but at least not further damaging the MHC.
> Knock on wood, I have not had an auto-immune disease crop up.
> Carole
> 
> 
> 
> Carol:
> 
> I am SO with you on this topic. This has been a controversial heated topic for many years and more so in recent years between breeders and veterinarians.
> 
> Lets face it most vets need to support their clinics and the equipment purchased as well as their salaried employees.
> 
> If all dog owners will know as much as we do about the damage vaccines and their repetition can cause to a dog's healthy system the vets would literally starve to death and have to close up their businesses.
> 
> I keep telling my clients the vet is NOT a god, he is just a human being with lack of knowledge as we all have.
> 
> I was shocked to learn from my WONDERFUL and MINIMALIST vet just how lacking in knowledge some vets are who profess that they are vets and know their business.
> 
> I come from a medical family/background and have been exposed to numerous conversations at home about HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) given my dad was a obs/gyn surgeon (he is dead of cancer) and he was so adamantly against administering the HRT shots to his patients inspite of the fact that this offered him making alot of money had he done it, he still had integrity and was honest with his patients telling them suffer the heat flashes but dont put poison in your body which you may end up regreting and worse, getting cancer as a result.
> 
> I guess I did sponge up my dad's ethics and choice for minimalism in my aproach to health care in this case of my dogs.
> 
> I tell all my clients.. take my instructions about vaccination protocol to you vet and IF he dare tells you that the DHPP should be combined with the Rabies than walk out to never return.
> 
> Some vets ridicule me to my clients telling them I am ONLY a breeder and breeders know nothing about dogs' health and medical issues and I tell my clients I beg to differ. Breeders many a times can teach vets about dogs because we are breed specific and we know what genetic ailments are specific to our breed.
> 
> Some vets are just so ignorant and either dont care or not interested to work with the breeder and /or the client. They feel their word is gospel and not to be challenged.
> 
> These are the vets I would stay as far away from as possible.
> 
> It took me 10 years to find the right vet and I am blessed with him.. I did tell him that if he ever moves to a different city, I am going to jump off the highest bridge. He ROFLHAO.... I go there even for a stool flotation check let alone other stuff.
> 
> I have his phone number and he will be at my back'n call whenever I need him as he knows I will never call him unless there is an emergency.
> 
> He is 32 years old a young genious and OMG ever a cutie
> 
> For the many years of state of the art care and wonderful comittment to my dogs' health I had gifted him with my boy Onyx's sister as a pet and he is very happy with her. She is the mascott of the clinic, which by the way is 24/7 and also an emergency vet center, to include a fertility section and sperm bank. I am blessed and fortunate to have him.
Click to expand...

 I am very fortunate to have two Vets that support me 100 % One is 5 hours away and has been my vet for well over 20 years . Have home number and a cell... LOL and the other is here in our small town And he is amazing too.. I am blessed....WE have known about immune systems and shots for many years this is not new..Running titers has been the norm for many breeds.. I like to keep my babies here as long as possible to be sure there ARE NO reactions.. If it does happen I want it to happen to me ! I appreciate very much that other breeders are feeling the same way ..BTW ORA your whites are lovely ..I have a friend in PX that breeds whites ... We showed together many a moon ago ! Good luck selling your litter they are darling !


----------



## wishpoo

> Some vets ridicule me to my clients telling them I am ONLY a breeder and breeders know nothing about dogs' health and medical issues and I tell my clients I beg to differ. Breeders many a times can teach vets about dogs because we are breed specific and we know what genetic ailments are specific to our breed.


Oh I bet they do :mffad: !!!! I am not only against dog-over-vaccination but any animal , including "humans" !!!! I constantly have to fight with doctors regarding yearly flue vacc. and refused to give some other vacc. to my girls !!! Latest "push" was for SwineFlue shot and I just refused after I did my own research and also consulted an Epidemiology expert that told me that she HERSELF would NEVER take it !!! 

I feel sorry for so many people who really think that they are doing the best thing for their family or pets but actually do damage immune system with constant over-stimulation and can cause more damage than benefit *sigh...

Ora- funny that you mentioned hormone replacement since I have the same opinion not only regarding that but any medication that is taken oh so casually in the Western world and I am shocked to what extent pharmaceutical industry goes to pump-up people with basically toxins and to what extent it goes to discredit any natural remedy or the holistic approach. : (((


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## whitepoodles

I am very fortunate to have two Vets that support me 100 % One is 5 hours away and has been my vet for well over 20 years . Have home number and a cell... LOL and the other is here in our small town And he is amazing too.. I am blessed....WE have known about immune systems and shots for many years this is not new..Running titers has been the norm for many breeds.. I like to keep my babies here as long as possible to be sure there ARE NO reactions.. If it does happen I want it to happen to me ! I appreciate very much that other breeders are feeling the same way ..BTW ORA your whites are lovely ..I have a friend in PX that breeds whites ... We showed together many a moon ago ! Good luck selling your litter they are darling ![/QUOTE]

Bigredpoodle:

Indeed our kind are very fortunate, I wish more vets would see things the way we do..There are some out there but far and between these days.
Thanks for your lovely comment.

This litter is all spoken for and my clients are very anxious as I am to see them mature and develope . So far so good, they are 11 days old and between 2.8 and 3.2 pounds.. I am definintely starting a moosepoodle trend..


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## whitepoodles

wishpoo said:


> Oh I bet they do :mffad: !!!! I am not only against dog-over-vaccination but any animal , including "humans" !!!! I constantly
> Ora- funny that you mentioned hormone replacement since I have the same opinion not only regarding that but any medication that is taken oh so casually in the Western world and I am shocked to what extent pharmaceutical industry goes to pump-up people with basically toxins and to what extent it goes to discredit any natural remedy or the holistic approach. : (((


Wishpoo:

Oh totally true. I was told by my dad years ago to never opt for HRT eve nif I feel like going out and rolling in the snow..and trust me I have had THOSE DAYS. I am 57 now and thank god more or less over it so I know what it feels and came very close to getting it but chickened out.

Gynos here make a fortune administering these HRT to their patients and they are fully aware it is not advisable but hey.. money talks ... at times.. depending to whom...hwell:

We stop vaccinating our children at 3 years old,, why continue with our pets? Is there any reason for it, I dont think so...


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## bigredpoodle

whitepoodles said:


> I am very fortunate to have two Vets that support me 100 % One is 5 hours away and has been my vet for well over 20 years . Have home number and a cell... LOL and the other is here in our small town And he is amazing too.. I am blessed....WE have known about immune systems and shots for many years this is not new..Running titers has been the norm for many breeds.. I like to keep my babies here as long as possible to be sure there ARE NO reactions.. If it does happen I want it to happen to me ! I appreciate very much that other breeders are feeling the same way ..BTW ORA your whites are lovely ..I have a friend in PX that breeds whites ... We showed together many a moon ago ! Good luck selling your litter they are darling !


Bigredpoodle:

Indeed our kind are very fortunate, I wish more vets would see things the way we do..There are some out there but far and between these days.
Thanks for your lovely comment.

This litter is all spoken for and my clients are very anxious as I am to see them mature and develope . So far so good, they are 11 days old and between 2.8 and 3.2 pounds.. I am definintely starting a moosepoodle trend.. [/QUOTE]
HA HA !! Moosepoodle that is funny !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## spoospirit

whitepoodles said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Spoospirit:
> 
> Most of the calls I get for puppies from U.S. clients are from California (Los Angeles/San Francisco area) I never had a problem with vaccinations and proof and I know for a fact three of my clients who do not vaccinate their dogs past puppy vaccines, have taken them to obedience doggy park etc.. and never encountered any problem.. Also I have a 3 Vermont clients and none ever mentioned the difficulties with vaccination protocols that BeachGirl and you encounter. I am not surprised that in the U.S. and some parts of Canada it is mandatory but I have not been faced with this in the areas that my puppies were sold in the U.S.
> BUT as I said if there is a mandatory law in a country and the client is a wonderful home, I would tell them BEWARE and I will bring them up to speed of what can happen to their puppies in case they are vaccinated for everything under the sun and potentially come down with an autoimmune disorder.
> 
> My boy Knight was SEVERELY allergic to the Rabies vaccine. He nearly died as a 6 months old puppy when it was administered to him (first Rabies shot)
> I had to drive all the way back to the vet with the right hand holding on to his swollen tongue and the other on the steering wheel and rushe him back 1/2 hour after it was given to him.. He was riddled with hives swollen face and a swollen tongue HAD my vet not been that near he would of died of anaphylactic shock.. They gave him an epinephrin shot and waited 1 hour until he came around.
> 
> Following this, A VET without mentioning name gave me a letter stating that the dog is due for Rabie in 3 years. After those 3 years, he gave me another letter stating that dog dog is due in another 3 years.
> 
> Bottom line.. I got the certificates from a certain vet who understood my concern and knew that Knight will die IF he gets another Rabies and was kind enough to supply me with these certificates when he needed to cross the border to show in the U.S. toward his Ch. title..
> 
> THIS IS WHY I put a SMILEY  when I mentioned that THERE ARE WAYS !!!
> Now folks dont tell.. LOLOL


_What? Did you say something? I can't hear you! _ :quiet:  _ LOL!!_


----------



## Poodle Lover

I live in San Francisco and the only vaccine my dogs had gotten (after their booster at 1.5 years old) is the rabies shots that are required by law every 3 years. I never ever gave bordatella, corona or lepto to my guys either. I take my spoos to the groomer regularly and the only thing they check is their rabies shots. If they would require any other shots (some do) I would find another groomer. 

I also don't believe in over medicating myself or my children. None of us get flu shots and when the time comes, no HRT for me either. My mother has been able to keep hot flashes at bay (maybe not as well as with hormones) with all natural vitamins and supplements that her friend who own a vitamin store put her on. I plan to do the same.


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## wishpoo

Thanks Poodle Lover for posting :rose::rose::rose:

Since we live in the same area it gives me excellent idea of what is really needed and what can be "avoided" by doing some "maneuvers" (like for reasonable groomers, etc. ). 

Yes, my Mom never took any hormones and neither did my Sis (they both entered menopause in their early 40-ties) and both did just fine  !!! I hope I will be the same way when my time comes - if not , I still will never use HRT ; ) !!!! 

I definitely will use titers for my spoo for rabies !!!!

PS: Your Siggy is soooo cute : )))


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## whitepoodles

spoospirit;118071 said:


> _What? Did you say something? I can't hear you! _ :quiet:  _ LOL!!_




Spoospirit:

Yes believe it or not it is done and some of us who are minimalist (in terms of vaccinations/meds etc.. given to our dogs) are delighted to have some vets who will understand a breeder's concern over vaccinations and are willing to go beyond the call of duty and give us these documents in order to KEEP OUR POODLES HEALTHY.. 
I am ALL FOR IT . Amen for such professionals.


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## whitepoodles

Poodleluver:

The photo of your three is SO CUTE.. 
I am glad that the west coast is only adamant about Rabies..

I can tollerate a Rabies vaccine once every 3 years, certainly much more than a Core DHPP vaccines with Lepto etc.. every 3 years.

I wish the authorities will start to consider Titer results.. This would be so much healthier for our spoos and dogs in general.. but then again most vets will be out of business.....

About pharmaceutical companies.. DONT get me started on them.. They are the evil in my book.

If some professional physicians will start giving some credit to homeopathic and naturopathic treatments I think we will find alot more healthy people in our world. Amazing what the above can do to people and dogs.


----------



## bigredpoodle

whitepoodles said:


> Poodleluver:
> 
> The photo of your three is SO CUTE..
> I am glad that the west coast is only adamant about Rabies..
> 
> I can tollerate a Rabies vaccine once every 3 years, certainly much more than a Core DHPP vaccines with Lepto etc.. every 3 years.
> 
> I wish the authorities will start to consider Titer results.. This would be so much healthier for our spoos and dogs in general.. but then again most vets will be out of business.....
> 
> About pharmaceutical companies.. DONT get me started on them.. They are the evil in my book.
> 
> If some professional physicians will start giving some credit to homeopathic and naturopathic treatments I think we will find alot more healthy people in our world. Amazing what the above can do to people and dogs.


 Oh I so agree with you ! I tell all my puppy folks NO LEPTO OR CORONA till older, I saw so many horrible reactions in the Setters years ago..How did the animals and humans EVER survive before drup companies It is a wonder NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Poodle Lover

Spoospirit and Ora,

Thanks for the compliments on the siggy picture, it's older but I love it. 

I think the vets are a lot more willing to listen to their client if the client is confident in his knowledge and firm in his stand. In S.F. there are a lot of well informed vets, so if one is not willing to work with me, there is always a different one.


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## whitepoodles

Poodleluver:

I agree.. I have always said that for every 2 unconcerned and money hungry vets, there is one great vet who will listen and not think that they are god, and to whom h/his clients' dogs' welfare comes first above all else.

I have such a vet, a wonderful extremely knowledgeable guy whom I respect and would lay a red carpet under his feet.

If he ever leaves or moves, I think I would tell my hubby we MUST move too.

I dont know what I will do without Sebastian... Aside for the fact that he is GORGEOUS and I alway kid with him telling him that had I Not been nearly 30 years his senior I would of hunted him down...


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## Penjilum-Poodles

I wish I could find a vet who was so open minded. I'm still presently searching...
I found a vet 1hr away from us who seemed great, they did excellent in the surgery department (they opened my deaf Boston Terrier's stenotic nares) and I was extremely please with that and still am. However I will never return there. 
While we were there I felt as though I was being targeted from a sales person. He pushed rabies, kennel cough, and even pills to help my dog during car rides for vomiting. Then I mentioned, just mentioned that I fed a grain free diet and raw and you should have saw the scolding I got. He then proceeded to pick up a bag of their brand of food they carried and tried to persuade me into buying it!!! He said they visited the plant where it's made and it's an excellent food for your dogs. blah blah blah. 

I didn't bother me that he didn't believe in what I was feeding/doing. It was that he didn't respect me enough to say that is 100% your choice as a dog owner. He said what I was doing was bad, awful. It made me feel like dirt. I walked out of there and never returned since. 

A lot of vets are in it for $$$, I am searching for a vet who is opened minded and respects my decisions. 

-Natacha


----------



## whitepoodles

Penjilum-Poodles said:


> I wish I could find a vet who was so open minded. I'm still presently searching...
> I found a vet 1hr away from us who seemed great, they did excellent in the surgery department (they opened my deaf Boston Terrier's stenotic nares) and I was extremely please with that and still am. However I will never return there.
> While we were there I felt as though I was being targeted from a sales person. He pushed rabies, kennel cough, and even pills to help my dog during car rides for vomiting. Then I mentioned, just mentioned that I fed a grain free diet and raw and you should have saw the scolding I got. He then proceeded to pick up a bag of their brand of food they carried and tried to persuade me into buying it!!! He said they visited the plant where it's made and it's an excellent food for your dogs. blah blah blah.
> 
> I didn't bother me that he didn't believe in what I was feeding/doing. It was that he didn't respect me enough to say that is 100% your choice as a dog owner. He said what I was doing was bad, awful. It made me feel like dirt. I walked out of there and never returned since.
> 
> A lot of vets are in it for $$$, I am searching for a vet who is opened minded and respects my decisions.
> -Natacha



Nathascha:
Too bad you live in Lanaudiere region or I would of sent you to my vet here in Montreal. Once you enter that Ritz Carlton clinic which by the way IS expensive but you have everything there from an oncologist to a heart specialist to the top surgeons in Montreal and some say in Canada that you will never turn back.

One of the owners of the clinic is my vet. He always said that once his cocker dies he wants a puppy from me.. so when his dog died I told him that I would like to gift him one of my puppies and he was in seventh heaven.

I gifted him with a nice black bitch from Lola's first litter and he is happy as can be with her.

This vet is the most wonderful compassionate human being I have ever had the honor to have my dogs treated by. He never pushes any vaccines on me, he never pushed his food on me.. If he disagrees with any of my opinions he knows exactely how to get his point across to me so that it makes me feel he is suggesting never pushing. He knows I am adamant about how I raise my dogs and abotu my vaccination protocol and knows better than to override my protocol with any client I refer to him.. 

All my clients who are sent to him rave about him and tell me just how wonderful he is and how respectful, non judgemental he is and NO AIRS at all.
He goes down to the level of the most novice dog owner and makes them feel special and this is what I label a compassionate vet aside from the fact that he is one of the top vets in Montreal in my opinion.

He cares about the dogs far more than abotu his pocket or how he will pay for the equpiment in his clinic. His attitude , compassion and knowledge made him partners in what is considered one of the top veterinary regular and emergency facility in Montreal area and some say this clinic is comparable to Guelph Animal Hospital.

What can I say.. I am VERY LUCKY, and so are my dogs.


----------



## whitepoodles

Natascha:
Oh I had forgotten to mention that the vet who pushed the VET FOOD on you obviously has very little knowledge about quality dog food.

Vet food is the WORST food one can give to their dogs (Hills, Science Diet, Vet Diet).

Every and each of these diets are based on the first ingredient which is corn... get the picture ?!!:scared:

Vets in general get ONLY 7 hours of lecture on nutrition per the 7 years they are in vet school until completing their degree. I had this information first hand from a vet I know , so when a vet tells you he recommends the dog food he sells in his clinic... ask him how did he come to this conclusion? from experience or from what the company selling this food "tells" him:rolffleyes:


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## poodleseeker

Cherie,
Can you tell me who this was?
Shirley


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## bigredpoodle

I too would like to know who this breeder was I do not want to do business with someone that will not return phone calls or emails ! And I surely do not want auto immune disease in my Healthy gentically clear lines  So please do tell


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## whitepoodles

bigredpoodle said:


> I too would like to know who this breeder was I do not want to do business with someone that will not return phone calls or emails ! *And I surely do not want auto immune disease in my Healthy gentically clear lines  So please do tell *




Bibredpoodle:

I am afraid that there is no such thing as "healthy genetically clear lines" in poodles these days and never was.

Every line has some issues in it.

If I would ever find that there is such a thing as genetically clear lines, I would revamp my entire breeding program and suggest my friends in the breed do the same and pay any amount of money to breed my girl (s) to such a line... 

Until such time that gene markers for Epilepspy, Autoimmune disorder (s), Addison's and Sebaceous Adenitis are isolated we as breeders still do and will work in the dark and none of us can say that we have healthy genetically clear lines.

Having said this, your dogs granted are healthy and it seems you have not (yet) experienced any genetic mishaps from your post, however it will be wrong to state that the line you enjoy is genetically clear... There is no such thing.

I am willing to bet that if the genetic markers for the aforementioned disorders were to be found and isolated 90% of the poodle population would be spayed and neutered.

I wish that in my lifetime I would be able to see the aforementioned diseases's gene markers isolated by DNA and then I and many others can relax and finally know what we are breeding and what to expect or not in our breeding programs.


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## bigredpoodle

I guess I should have said that so far we have had none of this ( Auto Immune ) and do not want it . 
This is what I meant by genetically clear healthy lines...I would like to know the lines of this breeder.


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## whitepoodles

Bigredpoodle:

The only person who may be able to tell you who the breeder is would be Arreau since the client who lost the dog contacted Cherri to let her know what transpired.


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## bigredpoodle

whitepoodles said:


> Bigredpoodle:
> 
> The only person who may be able to tell you who the breeder is would be Arreau since the client who lost the dog contacted Cherri to let her know what transpired.


She has in fact shared this information with me just a moment ago I truly appreciate knowing .


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## Sutton Bend

Whitepoodles,

Your opinion/knowledge regarding vaccines has me thinking. Years ago we purchased two totally unrelated dogs, not poodles. They had free run of both the house and the yard. They started having seizures within 1 or 2 months of each other, at a relatively young age (1 or 2 years?). We puzzled and puzzled over this because it seemed like it must be environmental. 

We tended to believe it was topical flea/tick treatments, but the vet(s) eventually diagnosed "Coonhound Paralysis" even though some symptoms did not fit. I believe they were trying to give us a "name" to the ailment and grasping at straws. I do not remember the timing of vaccines in relation to their seizure onset...but I do believe I will be very, very cautious regarding immunizations from here on out.

I am very careful with what my family eats, and regarding medicines, but I had not really thought of it regarding the dogs. The topicals were new back then, and did make me very nervous, but so did flea infestation. We travel all over the U.S. on vacation and take our pets with us. We have never been asked to show our paperwork but many campgrounds do require it and without rabies tags (they look for them), or immunization paperwork, we might have a hard time getting in. 

Our County does require Rabies, but we only do 3 year Rabies shots. Do you think a titre would suffice for either the County or camping? I would consider going to different campgrounds, but many are State and National Parks. Has anyone had experience with titre papers VS immunization papers?


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## whitepoodles

[*QUOTE=Sutton Bend;120017]Whitepoodles,

Your opinion/knowledge regarding vaccines has me thinking. Years ago we purchased two totally unrelated dogs, not poodles. They had free run of both the house and the yard. They started having seizures within 1 or 2 months of each other, at a relatively young age (1 or 2 years?). We puzzled and puzzled over this because it seemed like it must be environmental. 

We tended to believe it was topical flea/tick treatments, but the vet(s) eventually diagnosed "Coonhound Paralysis" even though some symptoms did not fit. I believe they were trying to give us a "name" to the ailment and grasping at straws. I do not remember the timing of vaccines in relation to their seizure onset...but I do believe I will be very, very cautious regarding immunizations from here on out.

I am very careful with what my family eats, and regarding medicines, but I had not really thought of it regarding the dogs. The topicals were new back then, and did make me very nervous, but so did flea infestation. We travel all over the U.S. on vacation and take our pets with us. We have never been asked to show our paperwork but many campgrounds do require it and without rabies tags (they look for them), or immunization paperwork, we might have a hard time getting in. 

Our County does require Rabies, but we only do 3 year Rabies shots. Do you think a titre would suffice for either the County or camping? I would consider going to different campgrounds, but many are State and National Parks. Has anyone had experience with titre papers VS immunization papers?[/QUOTE]*

Sutton Bend:

You raised good points.

My knowledge about vaccinations stems only from what I have researched and more importantly based on my breeder friends opinions and experience with vaccines, relating to standard poodles.

I do not profess to be a vet only a concerned dog owner who wants to have long lived healthy companions both mine and my clients'.

My experience has been that dogs emmanating out of the Ormar line have mostly been long lived and healthy without any autoimmune issues. 

I experienced VERY few autoimmune disorders in my dogs and I do keep tabs on my breeding post leaving my home. These disorders relate to Epilepsy and Addison's which I believe can be brought on my multiple vaccination protocol.

A PUPPY bitch I produced was vaccinated at THREE months old with DHPP. At FIVE mos. old she came down with Epileptic seizures. 

Now if one is to tell me that a dog over 1 year old or older comes down with Epileptic seizures I would definitely thing ok Idiopathic but must be genetic in nature.

This puppy was Alas ONLY 5 mos. old.. there is no way that a puppy can come down SO YOUNG with seizures. At least not from what I have heard.

I contacted many friends of mine who are poodle owners and breeders and unanimously we all came to the decision that it MUST be the DHPP vaccine that exacerbated Epileptic seizures.

I am saying EXACERBATED because it is my opinion that the dog's immune system has to be somewhat unhealthy for them to come down with a grand mal seizure following DHPP vaccination or any other treatment.

It is my opinion that yes, Epilepsy can be brought on to surface because of vaccinations and/or any other foreign substance put onto or in our poodles, but the dog in my opinion must alraedy be autoimmune compromised to show a reaction to the vaccine.

We cant say that the vaccine ALONE brought about the reaction, what I believe from doing my research is that the dog's immune system must already be compromised in order for them to show an autoimmune reaction to any foreign substance injected in them or topically put.

Poodles are known to have poor autoimmune systems, as such veterinarians must take this into consideration BEFORE embarking on a vaccination program.

Any knowledgeable vet will tell you that our breed IF they had treated many in their clinics do have sensitive and compromised immune systems, as such this alone should be considered by any vet whose client owns our breed.

My vet fortunately will not fight me on my beliefs. He respects me and knows that if I insist on anything it is because I have done my research and know what I am talking about.. 

He is wonderful and has personally witnessed putting down my SIXTEEN year old foundation female who has never been vaccinated (Except for her initial 3 puppy shots) (Oh well Rabies is another story and there are ways to combat the Rabies difficulty.. but not every professional will be willing to do this for a client). 

I looked at him and said.. you see, sixteen years old and NEVER a genetic ailment or autoimmune issue. 

What can I say, the proof is in the pudding.

As to Rabies vaccines, I agree it must be given in most areas every 3 years...
And.. dont kid yourselves the ONE year vaccine has the same effect as the 3 years vaccine.. SO IF YOUR VET does administer the so called ONE year vaccine to your baby at 6 months old, this WILL cover your dog for three years I am sure... So IF you must vaccinate for rabies and I am sure you do, I would do the Rabies vaccines at 7 mos. old (as late as possible if you can and never combined with any other vaccine like DHPP or Bordatella or Lepto) and repeat the Rabies 3 years later.

Just a note here, I did post in a previous thread (cant remember where) that someone I know who owns a standard poodle (Not my breeding) who is now waiting for a puppy out of Lola and Cole as her 2nd dog, told me that her dog now 5 years old is due for DHPP vaccines.. She did mention that her dog is epileptic and I told her NEVER vaccinate an epileptic dog NO MATTER WHAT.

Her vet knows that her dog is epileptic (on Pot. Bromide) and still went ahead and vaccinated the dog for DHPP (3 year vaccine) fully knowing that the dog's autoimmune system is compromised.

Within 2 weeks this poor dog came down with a massive grand mal seizure following which his owner emailed me to say how horrible this experience was for her as it was intense and frightening, telling me, I SHOULD of listened to you and not vaccinated him BUT MY VET TOLD ME IT WILL BE OK.

Yes, it was ok, wasnt it ??!!:wacko:

I am trully so fed up and so disgusted with SOME vets who either do NOT know their business or know it too well but are mostly interested in and focused on their pockets.

When we put a foreign substance in our system or our dogs' systems we DO take a chance...


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## Vibrant

whitepoodles said:


> Bigredpoodle:
> 
> The only person who may be able to tell you who the breeder is would be Arreau since the client who lost the dog contacted Cherri to let her know what transpired.


It's not difficult to figure out who the breeder is given the subtle clues in the original post.


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## whitepoodles

Vibrant said:


> *It's not difficult to figure out who the breeder is given the subtle clues in the original post.[/QUOTE*]
> 
> Vibrant:
> 
> And I do agree, however I will not mention names... just not right.
> Also there has been so much he said she said about this unfortunate death that in all honesty unless someone sees the necropsy report signed by a vet and speaks to the horse's mouth (the client themselves) only then can things be written in stone.. Until then it may be just that hearsay? who knows? and this has already been rehashed to death and time to put it at rest... this is why I mentioned that the only person who was told about this by the client is Arreau and that she is the one to be contacted.


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