# Hmmm, some concerns here...



## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

I am not starting this thread to beat these people up. I think most people who go onto their web site and phr can see what is going on here, but they must be selling pups like mad.

redpoodlepups

Lucy was bred to Toby and had pups in January 2010 ... Toby was not even 2 then.... and Lucy is from Dugan x Feebee... so cannot be two years old, if Dugan is her father (as he is 3) -what is going on here??? both Breeding dogs are under 2!!!!

Then Dugan and Bindi... this is a repeat litter.. and I think it is for the third time (?) I do not know because no pedigrees are listed, except for males....

and then... :doh:

a miniature to a standard ? seriously? and I do not think you can call that a poodle....

and AGAIN Rosie cannot be 2 years old, because she is a Dugan daughter....



and then on top of this there is a phantom litter, which is being repeated again in spring.....



and from 2008

8 January 2008 (Silken's Splinter Cell x Simons Red Silken Jewel)
30 July 2008 (Dugan x Simons Red Silken Jewel)
26 July 2008 (Dugan x Silken Free As A Bird)
06 August 2008 (Two Ton Tugs At My Heart x Two Ton Torid Affair) not sure if silken ... but it says on phr 
15 August 2008 (Dugan x Silkens Summer Sunset)

Would someone please tell me what is going on!??!

I thought this breeder was well respected? Am I wrong here?


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Oh boy- Jak :bolt::behindsofa:

Can I start writing your Eulogy now or should I do it later LMAO ???


----------



## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Oh boy- Jak :bolt::behindsofa:
> 
> Can I start writing your Eulogy now or should I do it later LMAO ???


:scared:


----------



## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

Oh boy....


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

First, I would like to say that Lori Silverthorne at Silken Poodles is a very dear friend of mine, and sadly, I think she is being picked on simply because she IS my friend. Using my own words in the first post is personal Jak. If you have a bone to pick with me, spit it out would you? I am deeply saddened and surprised at you Jak. You have always been bright, and even though you are only sixteen, I have the utmost respect for you and your opinion on this forum. You are educated and keen, and I am really shocked you have stooped to this. Questioning someone's breediing practices is definately all fine and good here because if all of this stuff were true, I would be questioning Lori myself, but FACTS are what matters, not innuendo, not misinformation, not someone else telling you it must be so...

I just got a call from Silken so here are the facts:

Lucy has NOT been bred yet, and neither has Toby. Lucy will be two in July, will not be bred until she is two and will be tested prior to any breeding. Toby has had no testing either and turned one in May. He may or may not be used by Silken before he is two, but will be fully tested and a pre lim done on his hips prior to breeding IF he happens to be used before two, but he has not been yet….He would not have even been a year old if he indeed sired a litter then, and I would have had to have signed the litter registration because Lori and I co-own him. I didn't, so know for a fact there was no breeding. Where did you get this information?

Dugan and Bindi have only been bred once. They will be bred again this summer for their second litter not their third. Silken waited to repeat this breeding to see what the pups from their last litter matured like. Where did you get this information?

If you read the “Arbitrary or not” thread here, some people feel that breeding a Standard to a Toy, Mini or Moyen (Klein) is a good way to help fix some of the problems Standards are seeing right now. The CKC considers all the sizes one breed with different varieties. These pups CAN be registered.. Rosie is a very petite Standard, barely 18” tall and barely 30 pounds. The only issue I could see breeding mini to standard would be if the mom was the mini. No respectable breeder in Canada who is a member of the CKC would risk selling unregistered pups of any size because if you do and are caught, you can lose your membership to the CKC, be publicly reprimanded and face a hefty fine for doing so. Where did you get this information?

I did not realize there was bias here regarding phantoms and partis. Silken will be breeding Tally, the mother of her last phantom litter a full year and a skipped heat from when she was last bred and pending how this litter matures. These pups are CKC registered. Where did you get this information?

A breeder does on occasion have an accidental breeding (thank God I have not) and one of the 2005 litters was completely unplanned, and this was something Silken was neither happy about or proud of.

Silken purchased a puppy out of Two Ton Tugs at my Heart and Two Ton Torrid Affair, but there were registration issues so that pup was sold and spayed. I personally do not understand what this part of this post is about?!

Perhaps one should check facts before they get their panties in a twist.


----------



## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

According to PHR Silkens Bird Of Paradise "Lucy" will be two years old 26.june. she is born 2008. Or are we talking about another Lucy ?

But they say that she will be having pups this fall so that should be ok?
Where did you see that she had pups in jan.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Winnow said:


> According to PHR Silkens Bird Of Paradise "Lucy" will be two years old 26.june. she is born 2008. Or are we talking about another Lucy ?
> 
> But they say that she will be having pups this fall so that should be ok?
> Where did you see that she had pups in jan.


Yes. Where DID you see that?


----------



## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

I've been trying to stay out of this one....but, here goes....
Jak, tell me if I'm wrong, but I really and truly don't think you started this thread to 'beat up' ANYONE. I think you started it, in a very clever way, to point out how wrong it is to single out any one breeder, based on their website, and throw them to the proverbial wolves. You knew this breeder would be hotly defended by some on this forum. No breeder is perfect..fault can be found in anyone, by anyone else.
The saying goes "People in glass houses should not throw stones". I think anyone who starts a thread in an obvious attempt to harm the competition's reputation is inviting and should expect backlash. Breeder bashing tells me more about those that participate in it than it tells me about the breeder they have set out to discredit.
Just my two cents worth...now I'll go back to simmering on the back burner.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I personally feel that everyone on here has been quite respectful and careful lately not to BASH breeders after a very lengthly and sometimes heated thread about informing breeders when they come up on here so they can have an opportunity to enlighten us or refute what is being said. Threads have been started asking questions about specific breeders, others started to enlighten prospective buyers, but I do not feel there has been bashing going on. Until now. Everything brought up about this breeder in this thread is misinformation. And I am fairly certain this information was not gleaned from this breeders own web site. Just saying...


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> Jak, tell me if I'm wrong, but I really and truly don't think you started this thread to 'beat up' ANYONE. I think you started it, in a very clever way, to point out how wrong it is to single out any one breeder, based on their website, and throw them to the proverbial wolves. You knew this breeder would be hotly defended by some on this forum. No breeder is perfect..fault can be found in anyone, by anyone else.


Agreed, well said Vibrant. That's exactly how I see this thread.


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I am certainly no expert on either breeding or poodles, but as Arreau said, I am positive that poodles are all one breed - just different sizes. I looked for a long time for a Standard poodle that is maybe 16/17 inches at the shoulder. When I first started looking I looked on the Dogs in Canada site and from there checked the breed standard and discovered that was within the breed standard for a Standard Poodle. However, once I started looking I discovered that the "norm" nowadays was WAY bigger than what I wanted. 

Through a friend in the local kennel club, I found a breeder of Minis and have bought a black female puppy only I haven't got her yet because I am paranoid about Parvo after my son's dog was her last summer when we realized he had Parvo. Anyway, my breeder has shown poodles successfully for many years. When I asked her about Spoo sizes, she said that breeders in the States were breeding Standards to Minis to bring the size down but the Standards would still be within the breed standard. My breeder is a very ethical breeder and breeding Standards to Minis is acceptable to her and I am confident that it is acceptable to the Canadian Kennel Club as well.

I don't know Jak but perhaps he/she is a friend of Pendragon and is getting defensive because Pendragon have been criticized here.


----------



## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Vibrant said:


> Jak, tell me if I'm wrong, but I really and truly don't think you started this thread to 'beat up' ANYONE. *I think you started it, in a very clever way, to point out how wrong it is to single out any one breeder, based on their website, and throw them to the proverbial wolves. You knew this breeder would be hotly defended by some on this forum. No breeder is perfect..fault can be found in anyone, by anyone else.*
> The saying goes "People in glass houses should not throw stones". I think anyone who starts a thread in an obvious attempt to harm the competition's reputation is inviting and should expect backlash. Breeder bashing tells me more about those that participate in it than it tells me about the breeder they have set out to discredit.
> Just my two cents worth...now I'll go back to simmering on the back burner.


Bold is min.
While this may be true, the information about the Pendragon poodles happens to be 100% true. They breed their dogs young, old and back to back. That's why they removed some of the information after posts on this forum. On the other hand the information about Silken poodles seems to be misinformation. 

This is a public forum and we can and should be able to discuss breeders practices (good, bad or indifferent) without the fear of being flamed for saying something negative. A lot of newbies to the breed come here to find information on the breed and breeders and should be able to find honest information, not just political correctness.


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Poodle Lover said:


> Bold is min.
> While this may be true, the information about the said breed happens to be 100% true. They breed their dogs young, old and back to back. That's why they removed some of the information after posts on this forum. On the other hand the information about Silken poodles seems to be misinformation.


Sorry, I may be being dim, but I don't understand the above. It sounds like you are saying the information is 100% true. The information about Silken???

But then you say the information about Silken poodles seems to be misinformation!!

That sounds like a contradiction unless, as I said, I don't get what you are saying.


----------



## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Purley said:


> Sorry, I may be being dim, but I don't understand the above. It sounds like you are saying the information is 100% true. The information about Silken???
> 
> But then you say the information about Silken poodles seems to be misinformation!!
> 
> That sounds like a contradiction unless, as I said, I don't get what you are saying.


Fixed the above post, so there is no more confusion. The info about Pendragon is true and the info about Silkens is not.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Jak you are priceless! I see this thread as a commentary on hypocrisy. I find it revolting that someone would ridicule PF members here and trash them elsewhere for being critical of someone's breeding standards (b/c they love dogs and the breed). Then turn around and start a thread, completely out of the blue btw, criticizing their own competition (a Canadian breeder of pet quality red Standard Poodles).

How do prelims = "fully tested"? They call them prelims for a reason. I don't care what anyone says, I can only see one reason to breed dogs under two and it certianly isn't to improve the health of the breed.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> I've been trying to stay out of this one....but, here goes....
> Jak, tell me if I'm wrong, but I really and truly don't think you started this thread to 'beat up' ANYONE. I think you started it, in a very clever way, to point out how wrong it is to single out any one breeder, based on their website, and throw them to the proverbial wolves. You knew this breeder would be hotly defended by some on this forum. No breeder is perfect..fault can be found in anyone, by anyone else.
> The saying goes "People in glass houses should not throw stones". I think anyone who starts a thread in an obvious attempt to harm the competition's reputation is inviting and should expect backlash. Breeder bashing tells me more about those that participate in it than it tells me about the breeder they have set out to discredit.
> Just my two cents worth...now I'll go back to simmering on the back burner.


When I joined this forum, it was common practice to discuss breeding practices of individual breeders (some good, some not so good, some abhorrent) and as long as FACTS were being presented it was all good. This practice continues today (and I'm fairly certain it won't stop anytime soon) and that's alright because it does help to educate the general public as to what to look for in a responsible breeder. 

I guess I don't see any of the existing threads as an "obvious attempt to harm the competition's reputation" as much as an "obvious attempt to educate people who are new to the process of researching breeders".

As long as there is nothing untrue or embellished in any of these threads, I can't see how it can be construed as "bashing" - it's discussion... This is what mature people do. Discuss and debate. It's healthy and it's good as long as it doesn't get personal or flaming.

Anytime a breeder's practices are called into question, that breeder (or anyone who conducts similar practices) is more than welcome to join in the discussion and debate. Sometimes practices are changed or adjusted, sometimes websites are simply edited or modified to hide the offending information, sometimes nothing changes and life goes on as usual. That's what I find so great about this planet - no one is perfect, everyone is on their own personal journey and we learn and grow at our own pace. 

Personally, I am grateful when questionable breeding practices are brought to light so things can be changed for the better if possible (or if they aren't changed, people can know what to steer away from.) However, sometimes what one person finds questionable or unacceptable, another person may not find any fault whatsoever (for example, it doesn't bother me - a PET owner - in the slightest, that a breeder may decide to breed for a parti or phantom litter as long as health testing has been passed, the bitch isn't being bred every heat and the puppies are strong and healthy. I understand that these colors/patterns cannot be shown in AKC conformation, but they CAN be shown in UKC conformation and in AKC performance events and they can also become a beloved member of a wonderful family!!)

I can't say that I've ever seen what some members describe as breeder "bashing" on this forum (not before I was a moderator, and not since becoming one) I've seen breeders' practices questioned - and as long as there is nothing untrue or fabricated and the discussions stay civil - I can only perceive this as healthy education. JMHO


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> I've been trying to stay out of this one....but, here goes....
> Jak, tell me if I'm wrong, but I really and truly don't think you started this thread to 'beat up' ANYONE. I think you started it, in a very clever way, to point out how wrong it is to single out any one breeder, based on their website, and throw them to the proverbial wolves. You knew this breeder would be hotly defended by some on this forum. No breeder is perfect..fault can be found in anyone, by anyone else.
> The saying goes "People in glass houses should not throw stones". I think anyone who starts a thread in an obvious attempt to harm the competition's reputation is inviting and should expect backlash. Breeder bashing tells me more about those that participate in it than it tells me about the breeder they have set out to discredit.
> Just my two cents worth...now I'll go back to simmering on the back burner.


Cherie- you know I think you are a great person, but I must admit I see this thread the same way Vibrant has posted. I think Jak, was likely more surprised at what he seen..........note Nevar is getting a silken poodle......most of seen that and went to Silkens website. I dont think this was to bash you but maybe say hey people need to look at all perspectives of breeders. You started the thread on Pendragon, and it went exactly the way it should of. It put the truth on the table. 

Are there some misunderstandings in what Jak posted, maybe so and you clairified that, which is good. 

EDIT TO ADD, I dont know that bashing is the word either as Cherie originally mentioned she had not felt it was bashing until now - although threads like this AND Pendragon do muddie up the water........But I also think they are needed!!


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Olie said:


> I dont think this was to bash you but maybe say hey people need to look at all perspectives of breeders.


I would've bought this, Olie, if Cherie's exact words hadn't been used at the thread's inception... It was definitely personal IMO. 

And I agree - all perspectives of breeders should be looked at - OR NONE! And since that isn't likely to happen (no breeders' practices being dicussed here EVER) then it is fair that everyone gets a turn with the "wolves"! Just keep it true, keep it calm, keep it fair - and don't allow your personal dislikes of a member color your posts! Just sayin'


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Poodle Lover said:


> Fixed the above post, so there is no more confusion. The info about Pendragon is true and the info about Silkens is not.


Well I think that Silken does have a history of breeding young and either untested or minimally tested dogs. Dugan was just over a year old when they started breeding him. If you look on OFA, he was not tested for more than a year after he had started breeding (may have had prelim hips but eyes and NE were done a year later.... no information listed about SA, thyroid, VWD etc). It is unclear what testing has been done on the Silken bitches since I can't find anything listed on OFA for them. Does anyone know how old the dam and sire of the current Phantom litter are?


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> However, sometimes what one person finds questionable or unacceptable, another person may not find any fault whatsoever (for example, it doesn't bother me - a PET owner - in the slightest, that a breeder may decide to breed for a parti or phantom litter as long as health testing has been passed, the bitch isn't being bred every heat and the puppies are strong and healthy. I understand that these colors/patterns cannot be shown in AKC conformation, but they CAN be shown in UKC conformation and in AKC performance events and they can also become a beloved member of a wonderful family!!)


Yes, but the biggest problem I see with Color and Parti breeders is that the color/pattern takes precedence over every thing else. Silken is a example.

In regards to their Mini stud dog, I know they want small, Parti and Red/Apricot, but should that be more important than structure and type? Looking at that Mini, if he were plain Cream colored, would he be a breeding prospect? 

In my opinion, if they go forward with him, they are going to have a really hard time down the line "fixing" the stuff he brings in. I'm specifically thinking about fronts, feet, tail set, wedgieness of head and pigment (remember our discussion of snow noses? They have good pigment now..... it would be a shame to bring in poor pigment.) Just my thoughts.....


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Purley said:


> I don't know Jak but perhaps he/she is a friend of Pendragon and is getting defensive because Pendragon have been criticized here.


LMAO - No way would Jak associate with a breeder as Pendragon.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Olie said:


> LMAO - No way would Jak associate with a breeder as Pendragon.


But it could appear that way (and obviously has) to new members. hwell:


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> But it could appear that way (and obviously has) to new members. hwell:


Had they read the Pendragon thread through - then it wouldn'thwell:

I will let you all spat it out - as you are defending one thing only PC> and I meant no harm to Cherie. PEACE -


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I don't think it would appear that way at all to anyone who bothered to look at the info under Jak's name. He is in NZ and has been a contributing member here for quite some time.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Olie said:


> I will let you all spat it out - as you are defending one thing only PC> and I meant no harm to Cherie. PEACE -


No worries, Olie - The only thing I am defending is the right for everyone on this forum to express their opinions on individual breeding practices as long as they keep it true, calm and fair without bringing personal agendas into the mix (and do I feel that way about everyone on this forum, no exceptions!)

Peace back to you!


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I don't think it would appear that way at all to anyone who bothered to look at the info under Jak's name. He is in NZ and has been a contributing member here for quite some time.


Most long-time members know how to research things on this forum (it comes with time and familiarity) but there are new members here who haven't explored the forum to that extent yet. I agree with you HC - it would not appear that way to anyone who looked into what you suggested, but not every new member will know how to do that and will make assumptions based on what they see on the surface. It's an unfortunate truth...


----------



## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

cbrand said:


> In regards to their Mini stud dog, I know they want small, Parti and Red/Apricot, but should that be more important than structure and type? Looking at that Mini, if he were plain Cream colored, would he be a breeding prospect?
> 
> In my opinion, if they go forward with him, they are going to have a really hard time down the line "fixing" the stuff he brings in. I'm specifically thinking about fronts, feet, tail set, wedgieness of head and pigment (remember our discussion of snow noses? They have good pigment now..... it would be a shame to bring in poor pigment.) Just my thoughts.....


I have to agree with you there.

In Scandinavia people mix Toy, Miniature and Medium together but they keep the Standards out of the mix. 

Its usually toy to miniature or miniature to medium. Not toy to medium.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Ridiculed?? Really? When? Where? 

When I began the thread called Forum Suggestion, it was to ask the members to speak only facts about breeders. No name calling, no belittling. Just facts. It was started as a question as to whether or not there was a way to contact breeders when they are being discussed so they could refute or substantiate things being said about them. To be honest, I was going to send the Pendragon’s an email letting them know about the thread I started because perhaps they have a perfectly logical explanation for why they do things as they do. And in fairness to them, I was going to alert them. But someone else beat me to it, and I saw Heather Pendragon had become a member within hours of me posting the thread. Everything I posted was information gleaned from their own web site. It may appear my post was “out of the blue” but it was not. I have not even been to the Pendragon web site in over a year. But, I posted an ad on Canada’s Guide to dogs, then went to see who else was advertising there. I saw the Pendragon ad and it had a flashing banner that they had puppies available. I clicked on that and it took to me their nursery page. The nursery page is where the information was posted on the three litters in eleven days. (I see one of the litters has since been removed). If this information was secret, would it have been on their web site for all thee world to see? Do I wish I had not posted it? Obviously. But if we all hold our cards close to our chest, and do not share information that is fact, how are any of the people who come on here looking for breeders and breeder information going to learn anything? Will I ever post ANYTHING I KNOW to be true about a fellow breeder again? Likely. Otherwise, there is not much point in being here. But I will not and have not posted something unless I got info from a breeders own web site, The Poodle Health Registry or Poodle Pedigree.

If I have come across as a hypocrite, I apologize from the bottom of my heart. Sincerely. I do not feel that I am though. When I started the Forum Suggestion thread, it was for a specific reason. I believed then, stated in that thread and still believe that this is a place to educate. I never said we should stop sharing knowledge good, bad or indifferent here about breeders practices and ethics. Quite the opposite. If you look at posts numbered 12, 15, 19, 22, 39, 63, 78, 80, 92, 96, and 120 on the Forum Suggestion thread you can confirm that it is my belief that if we know something good or bad about a breeder, we should share it, BUTonly facts and with no name calling or flaming. 

FYI…I do not consider Pendragon to be a competitor. We live in entirely different geographical areas, I test my dogs and it appears they do not, they have a fabulous, annual Poodle party and I do not, I will be breeding black to red and it looks like they do not. Our prices are so far and away from one another’s that someone looking for a puppy from me would not call them and vice versa. I have had many potential puppy buyers tell me their past pup came from this kennel or that kennel but to be truthful, not one person who has ever called me has bought a puppy from Pendragon in the past. So, no, they are not my competition. We seem to each be reaching out to an entirely different client base based on price, geography, health testing, what we offer along with our puppies, etc.


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Winnow said:


> I have to agree with you there.
> 
> In Scandinavia people mix Toy, Miniature and Medium together but they keep the Standards out of the mix.
> 
> Its usually toy to miniature or miniature to medium. Not toy to medium.


So do I, I met a mini dog that was an accidental breeding to a standard and it had deformities to its face/mouth area, although it is also an older dog now, I am not sure if there were any health problems. This is the one thing that stood out at me. But i am not a breeder - so I dont know ALL the do's and dont's on this.


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

As a total pet owner and never to be breeder, I am happy to see posts such as Arreau's about Pendragons, because it helps to educate me as to what I should be looking for in a pet. I have no interest in showing but on the other hand I certainly do want a healthy puppy when I buy one.

I guess this is slightly off topic, but do the breeders on here think that its not a good idea to breed a Standard to a Mini - so long as the bitch is the bigger of the two? Does this cause health problems in the puppies? So then when I have seen on the Internet 28" Standards, if I want a 16 or 17 inch Standard, then how would I ever get one? And will Standards get bigger and bigger and bigger until they are the size of an Irish Wolfhound??!!


----------



## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Some facts from PHR

Simons Red Silken Jewel has had 4 litters one in 2006 one in 2007 and two in 2008 only 5 and half months apart. 

Silkens Summer Sunset has 3 litters two in 2007 and one in 2008

Few of there males have been used just over 1 years old.
That is not a big deal where I live but of course the older the better but you can do hips as soon as the dogs turns one in Scandinavia. 

That was the only things I could see from PHR

And forgot about the phantom, she says she will repeat the breeding I see nothing wrong with that but I would not decide it until the pups are at least one year old.

I plan on breeding Dima and Charly again but only if the pups keep begin as good as they are.
I have not announced it on my page but I will when the time is right and all the pups are healthy and happy.


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Purley said:


> I guess this is slightly off topic, but do the breeders on here think that its not a good idea to breed a Standard to a Mini - so long as the bitch is the bigger of the two? Does this cause health problems in the puppies? So then when I have seen on the Internet 28" Standards, if I want a 16 or 17 inch Standard, then how would I ever get one? And will Standards get bigger and bigger and bigger until they are the size of an Irish Wolfhound??!!


I am not a breeder, but I suspect that if a breeder wanted smaller standards, this could be accomplished by breeding smaller standards together to over time create a smaller line. 

I think the problem is it seems that here in the U.S., people want BIG standards. It would be neat to see klein poodles become more popular over here. Does anyone in the U.S./Canada specifically breed klein poodles?


----------



## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

PaddleAddict said:


> I am not a breeder, but I suspect that if a breeder wanted smaller standards, this could be accomplished by breeding smaller standards together to over time create a smaller line.
> 
> I think the problem is it seems that here in the U.S., people want BIG standards. It would be neat to see klein poodles become more popular over here. Does anyone in the U.S./Canada specifically breed klein poodles?


In the US you have no limit on how big a standard can be
But in the FCI 60 cm is the limit but he can be 62 cm.
So the standard is from 17.7 inch to 23.6 inch.


----------



## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

PaddleAddict said:


> I think the problem is it seems that here in the U.S., people want BIG standards. It would be neat to see klein poodles become more popular over here. Does anyone in the U.S./Canada specifically breed klein poodles?


There are a few breeders of Kleins here in the US - not sure about Canada.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

AgilityIG said:


> There are a few breeders of Kleins here in the US - not sure about Canada.


Only one that I am aware of. And she has not begun breeding them yet, but has imported two red boys from Germany.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Purley said:


> As a total pet owner and never to be breeder, I am happy to see posts such as Arreau's about Pendragons, because it helps to educate me as to what I should be looking for in a pet. I have no interest in showing but on the other hand I certainly do want a healthy puppy when I buy one.
> 
> I guess this is slightly off topic, but do the breeders on here think that its not a good idea to breed a Standard to a Mini - so long as the bitch is the bigger of the two? Does this cause health problems in the puppies? So then when I have seen on the Internet 28" Standards, if I want a 16 or 17 inch Standard, then how would I ever get one? And will Standards get bigger and bigger and bigger until they are the size of an Irish Wolfhound??!!


I believe the opposite to be true. Most of the Standards I see are much smaller than they were when my Mom began breeding in the 60's. When I see one now who is the size they used to be my first reaction is "WOW that is a BIG dog!


----------



## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

AgilityIG said:


> There are a few breeders of Kleins here in the US - not sure about Canada.


Ok what are kleins ?

There are 4 official FCI sizes Toy, Miniature, Medium and Standards 

Miniature are often called dwarfs 

What size are kleins ?


----------



## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Only one that I am aware of. And she has not begun breeding them yet, but has implorted two red boys from Germany.


Vinnie came from a breeder here in the US. She has links to a few other breeders on her site - most are in Europe, but I believe there are a couple in the US.

index


----------



## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

Winnow said:


> Ok what are kleins ?
> 
> There are 4 official FCI sizes Toy, Miniature, Medium and Standards
> 
> ...




Toypudel: Under 28cm (10.92"), toy poodle

Zwergpudel: 28cm to 35cm (13.78"), dwarf poodle

Kleinpudel: 35 cm to 45cm (17.72"), middle sized poodle / little poodle 

Grosspudel: 45cm to 62cm (24.18"), big poodle


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Winnow said:


> Ok what are kleins ?
> 
> There are 4 official FCI sizes Toy, Miniature, Medium and Standards
> 
> ...


The Klein (or Moyen) might be more like your "Medium" size. They're not as large as most standards, but a little bigger than a miniature. It is not an AKC recognized size...


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Different again in the UK:
Poodles (Standard): over 38 cms (15 ins).
Poodles (Miniature): height at shoulder should be under 38 cms (15 ins) but not under 28 cms (11 ins).
Poodles (Toy): height at shoulder should be under 28 cms (11 ins).

The registers are closed, so as far as I am aware only the offspring of standards can be registered as standard - and same for the other sizes.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

This thread is now about sinks!


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)




----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

omg...THEY ARE BOTH WAY TOO COOL!!!


----------



## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

AgilityIG said:


> Toypudel: Under 28cm (10.92"), toy poodle
> 
> Zwergpudel: 28cm to 35cm (13.78"), dwarf poodle
> 
> ...


Ok so you are talking about the same thing I am only in German  hahaha..


----------



## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> This thread is now about sinks!


Love it!


----------



## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

LOL - too funny! Lightens things up. :biggrin:


----------



## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

Jak is at school and cannot access poodleforum from there, but he's emailed me his reply to post for him...





Jak said:


> Cherie. I am also deeply saddened at what you have made of this. You obviously do not know me well enough to actually understand what is going on, and as per usual you jump straight into action, without actually thinking first, and take everything said, as personal to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

...if it were the case of wanting the breeder to answer any of your questions Jak why didn't you post it somewhere that you are both members for her to respond? instead of posting it here where "the proverbial wolves" reside...

I don't think ((and I may be wrong...)) that the Silken breeder would ever want to answer any of these allegations here for the fact that its a firing range all the time, one side jumps to a conclusion making the other side assume the worst and its so repetitive and childish


----------



## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Maybe this is off-topic, but are the three sizes of poodle really considered like different breeds? My impression was that they are all the SAME breed, just in three different size classifications. Kind of like how Am. Cocker Spaniels are all the same breed, though the colors are shown separately in the AKC. And if that's the case, what would be the problem with breeding a small Standard to a large Mini, especially if the Standard is the female? 

I'm new to Poodles, forgive me if I'm just horribly confused. :wacko:


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

lisasgirl said:


> Maybe this is off-topic, but are the three sizes of poodle really considered like different breeds? My impression was that they are all the SAME breed, just in three different size classifications. Kind of like how Am. Cocker Spaniels are all the same breed, though the colors are shown separately in the AKC. And if that's the case, what would be the problem with breeding a small Standard to a large Mini, especially if the Standard is the female?
> 
> I'm new to Poodles, forgive me if I'm just horribly confused. :wacko:


you aren't wrong the poodle is split into 3 different "varieties" according to height all falling under the same "breed" in the AKC each may have their own short comings/advantages, but they're all poodles not a different breed


----------



## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> you aren't wrong the poodle is split into 3 different "varieties" according to height all falling under the same "breed" in the AKC each may have their own short comings/advantages, but they're all poodles not a different breed


That's what I thought, just didn't know if it was thought of differently in the Poodle community. Thanks for clarifying for me!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

flyingduster said:


> Jak is at school and cannot access poodleforum from there, but he's emailed me his reply to post for him...


It is bashing when nearly everything mentioned in the first post is misinformation. My motives? I had no motive or agenda when posting the Pendragon thread. I was simply sharing something I found quite by accident and perceived to be rather shocking. Are you implying that what THEY do is ok? You are alright with seeing a nine year old dog bred, possibly back to back heats? (This is impossible to verify now with the changes to their web site) Or that it is ok to have three litters in eleven days? Or that it is ok to breed so many litters when they have six juvenile dogs to place? If so, your opinions have changed considerably in a short period of time! I know what the "circle" here has stated time and time again as things they wish to see in a good and reputable breeder. Testing. One or two litters a year. No back to back breedings. A small number of dogs in the home. Dogs well groomed. No breedings when there are older pups needing to be placed. So now is it okay for a breeder to not follow these "rules"? Sheesh, it is getting very hard to keep up to the demands on here. 

Jak, there is not a single breeder who is perfect. And there are not many who could do everything correctly in the eyes of the "circle". Everyone has their own way of doing things, their own reasons for doing things, their own beliefs in what is right and what is wrong. I am trying and have tried to follow the "circle's" recommendations on what a breeder should do TO THE LETTER, but the demands keep getting bigger. I am not Silken's keeper, and though she is one of my best friends, I am sure there are things she feels I should do differently, and I am not always going to agree with everything she does either. She has her way of doing things and I have mine.

I think you are wrong about not using a stud dog a second time on the same bitch. One of her pups has gone on to become a UKC champion. One of mine is going to be shown CKC. I am not sure I had a puppy of quite the caliber of Brandi the first time around or in the rest of that litter. Each litter has seen something new or exciting show up. I am going to use Dugan again this time because I like him, like what he produces, like that the pups from my last litter were quite different from the pups from my first. The gene pool in the reds is not an easy thing to work with either. You find a male you like the look of, go onto PHR and discover it is so closely connected to your bitches that you would not dare use him. Or it's COI (if that matters to you) is through the roof and you wouldn't wasnt to touch him with a ten foot pole. So, my opinion is, if it ain't broken, don't fix it. The pups are healthy, have great temperaments, and each litter presents you with something a little different than the one before. 

Breeding a small Standard to a mini? People are doing it quite often according to what I have been reading here. It is how the reds were developed. I am sure it is how the Kleins were developed. There is nothing wrong or immoral or illegal about breeding them together. Brings quite a bit of diversity into the equation I would think. They are registerable, and they are purebred.

All of that being said, I am sure what I am saying here is falling on deaf ears. I KNOW I had no agenda or motive when posting the Pendragon thread. I know it was the shock and awe of what I had just read on their site. I also know that most of your original post on this thread was full of misinformation. 

So, we are both ticked with the other. You are upset at what I said about you bashing Silken by stating misinformation. And I am upset that you quoted me to start this thread making it, in my eyes extremely personal. I guess we can agree to disagree, or figure out a way to get past this, or ignore one another. In the meantime, you have your own way of looking at things and I have mine and Silken has hers. The thing that puzzles me the most about THIS entire ordeal is...you and she are both members of another forum. Why would you not have posted these queries there, where she might have come on to defend or explain herself? Why here, where she is NOT a member?


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

> It seems when you people run out of other ways to try and attack your competition, you bring up the same things over and over again.


http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/6829-16mth-old-red-mini-sale-cute-but-pricey-3.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/7-general-off-topic-chat/7071-animal-planet-investigates-petland.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/16-poodle-breeder-directory/4521-splendent-poodles-bc.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/2486-direct-quotes-breeders-website-2.html

You have mention Pendragon many times on here so I do not understand why a new thread was needed again ? I am quite sure that you where not going to email Pendragon because you surely did not email cantope 

http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/2120-breeder-ontario-canada-4.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/2306-standard-parti-lines-3.html



> Lucy has NOT been bred yet, and neither has Toby. Lucy will be two in July, will not be bred until she is two and will be tested prior to any breeding. Toby has had no testing either and turned one in May. He may or may not be used by Silken before he is two, but will be fully tested and a pre lim done on his hips prior to breeding IF he happens to be used before two, but he has not been yet….He would not have even been a year old if he indeed sired a litter then, and I would have had to have signed the litter registration because Lori and I co-own him. I didn't, so know for a fact there was no breeding. Where did you get this information?


Why would someone post a breeding they don’t plan on doing or are not sure about ? On the website it says “ Lucy will be bred to Toby in September (pending test results) “

In September Toby will not = 2 years So I am not sure why you are saying all of Jak’s info is wrong ……

You are saying pre-lims = fully testing in this thread but here you make it seem like pre-lims are not ok in this one....
http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/2759-breeding-age-12.html


Flynn only had prelims when you decided to collect semen from him …..
http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/5846-lets-clear-air-shall-we.html

Then in this thread a list of breedings you did
http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/5113-post-not-post-ofa-results-5.html


You said it’s the other persons Choice to use your studs young? If you are stating you are an ethical breeder then you should lead by example and so should your co-breeders. 

I don’t think Jak is saying it’s bad to repeat a breeding he is just pointing out that she also has a parti litter along the way with the red breedings that are going to happen according to her website.

You then say in this thread that its not about competition but you do mention several times that Pendragons dogs are marked high in your new pendragon thread:



> Their prices are phenomenal too. Their pups range in price from $2,200 for apricot to $2,600 for darker toned which they call cinnamon. This is about $1,000 more than most other breeders are charging for their reds. Unbelievable.


Then in this thread you said: 



> Our prices are so far and away from one another’s that someone looking for a puppy from me would not call them and vice versa.


IMO that is talking about a competitor

You have also mention : about another breeder ( I think it was paris poodles ? not sure) using puppy money on re modeling their home ( I cannot find that thread probably because I need my reading glasses lol) 

What are you using your puppy money for ? Because it can’t be going towards any titles :?

I guess it’s ok to have questionable practices when the people are your friends but not ok if they are not your friends, I need to remember that one.:wacko:

There are some breeders who breed minis to standards it’s not a common practice and it is frowned upon by some. If I were to breed a mini to a standard that mini needed to be the best damn mini I have seen. It seems Like color is the only reason for this breeding. I have noticed that red and white parti standards is the latest craze.

This is my reply to both threads 

I thought highly of you Cherie but your post do not make sense to me anymore...


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/6829-16mth-old-red-mini-sale-cute-but-pricey-3.html
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/7-general-off-topic-chat/7071-animal-planet-investigates-petland.html
> 
> ...


Okay then. What exactly is your point? My opinion of Pendragon obviously has not changed since I joined here. My opinion of people breeding lots of litters in a year, or back to back heats has not changed since I joined here. My opinion of some breeders practices has not changed since I joined here. Unfortunately I do not have the time or the inclination to go through every thread YOU have ever posted in to see if YOUR opinion ever wavered or changed. I guess it is okay to take posts out of context to focus only on what one party says in an effort to have them look bad. I noticed in some of the threads posted even you had something to say about some of the breeders being discussed. Have you turned over a new leaf Roxy? You are no longer going to share your opinion or what you know to be true?

BTW...the list of breedings in the one thread you have posted were NOT all breedings I have done. This was a list of litters sired by the male I used in total. 2 of those breedings were my litters. To this point I have had one breeding bitch and have never bred her back to back heats. She would have to be one special girl to have been able to have been bred that many times in a year.

Flynn was collected with a pre lim hip xray, but a litter was thankfully not conceived. So, what is your point?

I use the income from my puppies for many things dogs related. Vet care, food, toys, dog run, gravel for the dog run, building a new room for the puppies with easy access to outside, puppy run off office/puppy room, purchase of stud dogs for future breedings, testing of the breeding dogs, stud fees, advertising, web site fees, long distance, high speed internet, higher than usual electricity and propane bills when pups are born in colder months, etc., etc., etc. Are you going to ask to see my books next? LOL!!!!!

Silken is not my co-breeder. We are good friends, and we co-own a dog together. I do not have a vested interest in her operation nor does she have a vested intgerest in mine. Trillium and I are co-breeders. We co-own three dogs together and will breed these dogs according to what we decide after much discussion and planning. I do not have to agree with everything a friend does to still like them and consiider them an important part of my life. Nor does that friend have to agree with everything I do to like me and value my friendship. 

What are you trying to prove by posting posts I have replied to on various threads? Basically they all say the same things. That I do not agree with breeding untested dogs, that I do not agree with charging exorbidant prices for puppies, that I do not agree with breeding back to back heats, that I do not agree with having a high volume of litters of puppies, particularly if you have older pups that need homes and i am pretty sure most of the posters opinions in these threads were very similar to my own. Including yours in some instances...We are all entitled to our opinions, and God forgive me for having mine and for those opinons being steadfast and consistant. And again, I reiterate, I do not consider Pendragon to be a competitor. We do not do things the same way nor do we charge the same prices, or close to the same prices our puppies. 

Does this answer any of your questions Roxy?


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

honestly...how much time did you spend "compiling" all of that information to "discredit" her Roxy? 

constructive things do with ones time :

Read a book...

Make a to do list...

Call a friend...

25 USEFUL things to do when bored. Brighter Days for you and me!

pretty sure making a whole long post on "Why Cherie Perks is an awful person" isn't on that list ((if I'm wrong please enlighten me with your EVER enveloping knowledge of everything))


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Keithsomething said:


> honestly...how much time did you spend "compiling" all of that information to "discredit" her Roxy?
> 
> constructive things do with ones time :
> 
> ...


I wonder how much time Cherie spent compiling info for her Pendragon post. Why is one thread a "personal attack," but the other is what community service?


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I wonder how much time Cherie spent compiling info for her Pendragon post.


who are you?...who are you to judge ANYBODY else when you have nothing to contribute other than hate and nastiness. You should look inside when you think about posting something rude and maybe even call someone like a professional to help you with that. I know of a fantastic psychotherapist in Dallas area ((he spoke to my class last May about disorders in children...)) if you'd like a reference just PM me I'd be ecstatic to give you his number


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I wonder how much time Cherie spent compiling info for her Pendragon post. Why is one thread a "personal attack," but the other is what community service?


It did not take long at all. It was just a matter of going to their web site and seeing what they posted there. Not taking things out of context or highlighting only what I wanted others to pay close attention to. Not embellishing things. Not lying. Just going to the site, reading the litter announcements and then after picking myself up off the floor, posting the thread. For the benefit of potential buyers. Not to beat up or insinuate anything. I did not say they were bad breeders did I? I simply took what was on their own web site and posted it. Information they chose to share on the world wide web.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

:closed_2:


----------

