# A Little Immunity is Enough...



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Thanks, CB. Blue is due for his booster in August. I'll run off a copy of that article to take with me. My vet doesn't routinely titer, but I'll push for that.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

The only vaccine that really worries me is rabies, and that's not going away any time soon.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I haven't seen an update to Dr. Dodd's Rabies Challenge experiments lately. 

The other vaccines I don't accept or even bother titering... I simply turn them down. My choice, and my vet knows that. 

But she and I both know that there is no question of choice when it comes to rabies. She doesn't argue with me over the other vaccines and I don't argue with the rabies shot when it's due.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Unfortunately, certain vaccines are required for boarding and classes. Smh.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I started titering, instead of routine vaccines, when I got Wilson. My vet went along, because he is a good guy and respects the wishes of educated owners. The cost here for titering is about three times the cost of a vaccine, so I hope as it becomes more common that the price will drop. I have also started titering Sailor. No titers have ever shown that the dogs need vaccines. I wish the state would accept rabies titers.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I recall discussing Dr. Dodd's site, Hemopet in here a couple of times. Mostly for self-titering. I've never used it 'cos the sample would still have to be drawn by a vet anyway. Then maybe there's cross-border issues, who knows. An excuse, I know...

And me too... it irks me that some places will demand vaccines. I can see it for the parvo/lepto viruses... but then most of them also demand a pretty much useless vaccine... for bordatella.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

I don't even titer any more. They get vaccinated as puppies, I titer at a year old to make sure they have immunity, then that's it. Immunity doesn't go away. I do do rabies and will continue to do so as long as it legally required here. I have some friends who don't and just take the ticket, but I know for a fact there was a dog in my county that bit someone and they just put it down and sent the head in for testing. I guess they don't mess around, so I do the 3 year rabies. I hope that soon they'll accept titers.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I learned a lot about titering and rabies from my old vet. Apparently, to become a vet, you have to get the rabies vaccine. (Makes sense.) After the initial dose, you get titered and boostered only when needed. The point is that the CDC accepts rabies titers on humans but not on dogs. The inconsistency is that we know the exact level for a titer on a dog at which the rabies vaccine no longer provides immunity, but we don't know the exact level on a human. On dogs, the research can and has been done. On humans, the research is unethical, so the best we can do is look at cases and say "that guy didn't get rabies and his last titer was this high, but this other guy did get rabies and his titer was this low." That provides an estimate of how low the titer can be, but it's not exact. While in dogs, we know the exact score on the titer that provides immunity. But titers on dogs aren't accepted. So frustrating. I actually called the CDC and talked to someone about this. The conversation went about as you would think.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

oshagcj914 said:


> I don't even titer any more. They get vaccinated as puppies, I titer at a year old to make sure they have immunity, then that's it. Immunity doesn't go away. I do do rabies and will continue to do so as long as it legally required here. I have some friends who don't and just take the ticket, but I know for a fact there was a dog in my county that bit someone and they just put it down and sent the head in for testing. I guess they don't mess around, so I do the 3 year rabies. I hope that soon they'll accept titers.



Actually Teaka did fail her first Parvo titer and needed to be re-vaccinated. I can't recall how long after vaccination that was, but it was enough to make me keep titering. Although she is 14 and has not failed since...


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I was looking for the latest on the Rabies Challenge and I dug this up from Dr. Dodd's Fb site. She posted it this Spring. 

Some new recommendations for dealing with animals exposed to rabies, but who are beyond the legal three year window for their booster. Rather than a 6 month quarantine or euthanization... they now recommend a booster and observation. 

It's a small step tho really. The only thing it indicates is that in 2016, the rabies vaccine was been challenged and found effective beyond the arbitrary(?), legal, three years.

New Guidelines for Pets That Are Overdue for Rabies Boosters


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

> I don't even titer any more. They get vaccinated as puppies, I titer at a year old to make sure they have immunity, then that's it.


Ditto, this is the schedule I have followed for over a decade now, with all of our dogs. No rabies boosters either. I grew up in Southern ON so I certainly understand why the OP stays current with rabies shots.


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## Poodlemanic (Jun 27, 2016)

Wow, I learn a lot on this forum. I didn't know about vaccines lasting so long. Until a couple of years ago, we took our poodles in every single year for their boosters, and rabies every 3 years without fail. Then our vet told us studies indicate they only need boosters every 3 years. But NOW...new info again. Interesting! We don't live in an area with much rabies and certainly no one cares if the dogs even have any shots, we just do it to protect them. We have a lot of wildlife on our property and for some reason the wolves seem to be really increasing in numbers the past few years, so there is quite a bit of contact between our dogs and wildlife, indirectly.


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## Alika (May 17, 2016)

Just keep in mind that rabies is required in a lot of cities.

Where I live you have to prove current rabies vaccination in order to license and all dogs/cats/ferrets over 6 months old must be licensed. "Up to date" has changed with the recommendation that the rabies vaccine has been found to be effective for longer than was previously thought. So for now that is left up to the vet: city licenses are good for as long as the rabies vaccination is.


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## Poodlemanic (Jun 27, 2016)

Alika said:


> Just keep in mind that rabies is required in a lot of cities.
> 
> Where I live you have to prove current rabies vaccination in order to license and all dogs/cats/ferrets over 6 months old must be licensed. "Up to date" has changed with the recommendation that the rabies vaccine has been found to be effective for longer than was previously thought. So for now that is left up to the vet: city licenses are good for as long as the rabies vaccination is.


You know you're a farmer when you wonder how on earth that's anyone's business but your own, lol


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## Alika (May 17, 2016)

Well... in the one hand I completely agree that in an ideal world it should be your own choice how and when to vaccinate your animals. On the other hand, rabies used to be a pretty big problem. The vaccine is a part of why it's not a big issue anymore.

So, where I live, when someone is bitten by a dog it must be reported. It's actually a state law. And the reason is rabies: they want to make sure it stays under control. 

So if your dog were to bite someone - heaven forbid, I know - you have a legal obligation to report it. There's a misconception that if a dog bites someone it will be out down. That's not the case... At least not around here. We are primarily concerned about rabies. If you can prove your dog is up to date on rabies then your dog stays in your home. Depending on the situation you may or may not get a citation, but the dog stays in your home.

However, if you can't prove current rabies vaccination then your dog goes under observation quarantine for 10 days at the shelter and you will be respossible for any fees that result.

It's done that way to avoid post exposure vaccination for the person who was bit. The vaccine is very expensive and can make you sick. I had to get it for my job and the county nurse would not administer it until payment was verified by my employer... because it's that expensive. 

You could argue that post exposure vaccination is overkill in most areas. Right now it probably is. But keep in mind that rabies is deadly but post exposure vaccination can save lives if administered in time.

I live in a rural area where dogs frequently come into direct contact with wildlife. And wildlife around here sometimes tests positive for rabies. Last year a woman in my state died from rabies. The bite wasn't reported when it happened and she didn't receive the vaccination in time. So if my kid was bitten by a dog I knew nothing about, I would very much appreciate that the law was written the way it is.

I write all this just to explain the local law and why it is the way it is and to let people know they may have similar ones where they live. I've had to quarantine more than a few dogs whose owners were not aware that they needed to stay current on rabies. Surely the law will evolve as our understanding about the vaccine does.


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

Thank god I still live in an ideal world, at least as far as dog vaccines go. 

The following might be old news for some, but an interesting read on the subject of rabies especially for those who reside in Canada.

Sirius Dog

And from that paper, this little nugget ....



> With regards to three year products, Dr. Suzanne Jenkins, staff epidemiologist and chairperson for the U.S. National Association of State Public Health Veterinarians, is not aware of any cases of rabies in dogs or cats in the US where the pets have received the first rabies vaccine followed by the first booster one year later, as is recommended by the manufacturer's label;


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## Alika (May 17, 2016)

Meh...

I didn't write the law and I'm not interested at all in debating it's merits. I just thought that people who are thinking about foregoing rabies boosters should be aware that such a law may exist in their municipality. I explained about bites and quarantine to show why a person who lived in such an area might be interested in following such a law.

If you don't live where this is required then I suppose it doesn't pertain to you, which is great.

I'll bow out now. I know legally required vaccination is a hot button issue for many people and I didn't intend to offend anyone. I just wanted to offer another point of consideration for folks thinking about foregoing future boosters.


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

Meh? LOL 

That's right, I don't live in that area, and neither does the OP, which is why I provided the link that I did. Both the OP, and myself, live in Canada. 

Obviously all of the members on this forum should be aware of their own local laws, to which I'm sure there are many.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

In Ontario??... it is what it is, IMO. 

In the unlikely event that Tonka ever bit anyone, proof of vaccine is a simple and guaranteed Get Out of Jail card.

And because it's so ubiquitous, it's cheap... $10 Cdn.


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

Having not lived there for 40 or so odd years, I'm no expert on the current dog laws of ON, but I suspect as far as dog bites go that would be part of a local ordinance, and not provincial. The city where I live in Western Canada has no laws regarding rabies vaccinations. And even in ON there are many that still believe it is the law that one's dog must get a yearly vaccination, even when 3 yr boosters are given. Some vets even promote that logic, which comes as no surprise. 

Also, in ON there's a waiver that one can apply for if for any reason an owner feels that there are health reasons that might place their dog in harms way if they were given the rabies vaccine. From the following link; 

Sirius Dog



> Ontario Regulation 567/90 also allows a legal waiver for the rabies vaccination. It states "The owner or person having the care and custody of an animal that is in or has a physical condition that precludes the safe immunization or re-immunization of the animal against rabies is exempt from the requirement of this Regulation where (a) a statement of exemption is issued by a veterinarian with respect to the animal that sets out the reason why the animal cannot be immunized or re-immunized; and (b) the animal is controlled in such a manner as to preclude its being exposed to rabies."


I would imagine that any form of auto-immune disorder, or previous negative reaction to a rabies vaccine would qualify, if signed off by a vet. 

Having personally lost a dog years ago from what I have always believed was a direct result of a rabies vaccine, I would much rather take my chances of getting _struck by lightning_, which for our pets is probably far greater than coming into contact with a rabid animal. 

Sorry, touchy subject for me.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

RD. said:


> I would imagine that any form of auto-immune disorder, or previous negative reaction to a rabies vaccine would qualify, if signed off by a vet.


lol - That would be the trick. But short of gifting them with their own private island get-away on the sly, pretty difficult to pull off. Vets see the rabies vax as absolutely safe... and definitely are not gonna risk their practice on a guess.

They don't 'sign off' on nuffink!


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

Our vet would have no issue signing off on a rabies vaccine, if one was required. Like many other vets, he's also seen and read about enough negative reactions from rabies (and other) vaccines over the years to understand that in some cases they can cause serious adverse reactions, in some dogs. Trust me, not all vets see the rabies vaccine as absolutely safe.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Molly only gets a rabies vaccine also every 3 years.........and that is only because it's a law here and even though she has an auto-immune reaction to it (rabies alopecia) unless it is life-threatening it is impossible to get a wavier .....bald spots are not considered life threatening! Her last round of vaccinations were at 1 year old and it was only Rabies (3yr) and DHPP,(I gave this one 2 weeks before her rabies vac) nothing else! I just don't want to play around with her immune system and it just kills me to even have to do rabies! Other than the rabies vaccine reactions, Molly has actually been one of the healthiest dogs ever! 
I feel ok about it since she is at very very low risk in our life style as far as exposure to disease.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Of course YOUR vet would have no problem signing off on it. 

You were quoting ON regulations tho, within the ON regulatory network, based on ON practice, and ON training.

So I see no comparison at all in a vet's ability to 'sign off'. Our's are trained from birth in the use of the rabies vax. So you're comparing our apples to your oranges really. Your oranges who have been raised and trained in a different culture.



RD. said:


> I grew up in Southern ON so I certainly understand why the OP stays current with rabies shots.


Thanx!


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

Sorry to hear that, Molly. Our little Chihuahua cross also had a serious reaction after receiving her 1 yr rabies shot booster. Her entire face swelled up, to where her eyes were swelled completely shut. That was 10 years ago, and was the last rabies shot that she was subjected to. That was 2 dogs too many for me. 

In Canada there is no requirement for vets to report vaccine reactions, so the adverse reaction stats reported by the Canadian Centre for Veterinary Biologics (CCVB) are IMO a complete farce. I'm quite certain that the vaccine manufacturers aren't looking for people whose pets have had a negative reaction to their products, so that they can report it to the government. And of course "suspected adverse events are categorized by the vaccine manufacturers as Probable, Possible, Unlikely or Unknown adverse events."

More than likely most fall under the _possibly unlikely _ scenario, when categorized by the people who make & sell the vaccine. The CCVB only recognizes an adverse reaction as serious when “any AE which results in death, is life-threatening, results in persistent or significant disability/incapacity, or a congenital anomaly or birth defect”
Hmmmmm. That's nice. Your dogs head can swell up like a balloon within 30 minutes of receiving a vaccine, but that's not considered serious. 

CountryBoy ...... I have friends and family who still reside in Southern ON. My sister and her MD husband are good friends with the local DVM and his wife. While that may be your personal view regarding vets in ON, as I said, not all vets share that view - in Canada, or in ON. The waiver that I posted was written specifically for ON residents. How many ON residents have utilized that waiver I do not know. I only mentioned it as this was recently discussed with me, and thought that being from ON you might be interested. 

I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should pass on a rabies vaccine if they live in a med-high risk area, or if it is the law in their State/Province/Town/City.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

RD. said:


> Having not lived there for 40 or so odd years, I'm no expert on the current dog laws of ON, but I suspect as far as dog bites go that would be part of a local ordinance, and not provincial. The city where I live in Western Canada has no laws regarding rabies vaccinations. And even in ON there are many that still believe it is the law that one's dog must get a yearly vaccination, even when 3 yr boosters are given. Some vets even promote that logic, which comes as no surprise.
> 
> Also, in ON there's a waiver that one can apply for if for any reason an owner feels that there are health reasons that might place their dog in harms way if they were given the rabies vaccine. From the following link;
> 
> ...


 I live in the Southeastern US, so it may be that the risk of rabies is much higher here than where you are, I don't know. I consider my dog's risk of encountering a rabid animal to be moderate. There are between 5 and 15 documented cases of rabies in my county each year, and I can only assume that there are actually more cases than that since I doubt every rabid wild animal is caught and tested. I've had a rabid raccoon caught and removed from my property years ago. My parents live one county over (about 20 minutes away). One of their neighbors had a horse that contracted rabies and was euthanized - quite a few people and animals were exposed before the diagnosis was made. My dog hunts, so he works off lead in places with wildlife. 



> (b) the animal is controlled in such a manner as to preclude its being exposed to rabies."


I know for a fact that my vet will sign a rabies waiver if she feels it is in the best interest of the animal - she did it for my parents' elderly housecat. But, my area has a similar regulation to the one I quoted from yours above, and I just want to point out what that would mean for my dog: no more going to work with me every day, no more hunting, no more camping trips, no more working and hiking off lead. For the elderly cat that lived indoors, it was no biggie. Hans lives for that stuff, though. His world would fall apart. 

Some areas (cities/counties) in the US actually have the regulation written in such a way that it says that an animal that is given a rabies waiver must be prevented from having contact with the public. 

Also, while I've not had a dog that had a reaction to a vaccine, I myself have had a life threatening reaction to more than one. Here is my doctor's position on it, which I'm ok with: One of the vaccines I reacted to is for a disease that, while it is moderately likely that I will be exposed, is also probably not life threatening. I'll never be vaccinated for that again. The other one is for a much more severe illness, which also has at least some likelyhood of exposure. If if fail a titer, I'll be vaccinated again in a hospital with other meds on board to hopefully prevent the reaction.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Actually Teaka did fail her first Parvo titer and needed to be re-vaccinated. I can't recall how long after vaccination that was, but it was enough to make me keep titering. Although she is 14 and has not failed since...


Swizzle flunked his Parvovirus titer too. The vet was surprised.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

CT Girl said:


> Swizzle flunked his Parvovirus titer too. The vet was surprised.



Gee, I wonder if it is a silver poodle thing? I once met a woman at a dog event who told me that her silver toy had survived parvo at age one after being "fully vaccinated"...
Has Swizzle passed his titer since being revaccinated as Teaka has?
Gee Dr. Dodds recommendation about an extra parvo booster is starting to make more and more sense. I am going to have to really consider this for Trulee even though she isn't silver....


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

> I live in the Southeastern US, so it may be that the risk of rabies is much higher here than where you are, I don't know.


Yes, lucky for me rabies is very uncommon where I live (NW Canada), considered a low-level risk - some might even use the term rare. In this area bats are the #1 rabies carrier, and for 7 months of the year those bats are in a state of hibernation.


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