# Suggestions/advice on breeders listed on AKC marketplace



## milktea (Dec 21, 2020)

Hi, I locate in north California. I started to want a standard poodle a long time ago, but am only considering getting one after working from home during covid as I will be with the puppy all the time. I have searched a lot after Thanksgiving, but since I have a preference on a red male poodle and the breeder can provide health gaurantee and both mom and dad are tested, my choices are really limited. I have contacted multiple breeders that are "near" California - within 24 hours driving. But since red is a rare color, I didn't have a lot of luck and am still on waiting lists. I have been limiting myself on the AKC marketplace and won't look at the breeders which do not provide health gaurantee or gene tests of dad and mom. Some breeders do not check if they have gene tested the parents or provide health gaurantee and even don't have a page or website. For example this one: Amity Poodles - Puppies For Sale. Is it okay to go to breeders without much information but is listed on the AKC marketplace? What questions do you recommend asking other than if parents are tested and if health gaurantee is provided?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome!

You're absolutely trying to do the right thing but IMO listing in the AKC marketplace is not any sort of guarantee that the breeder is doing _any _health testing. Certain categories of AKC breeders, I think it's Breeder of Merit and Bred with HEART, are required to meet certain health testing standards. This does not mean that a number of the breeders listed on the Marketplace don't health test, many do.

This is mentioned in the information in the Breeder List, but if you have a kennel name, or a specific dogs registered name, you can search for the testing info on OFA yourself.

An AKC registration for dogs is supposed to be limited to purebred dogs only, no mixes or crosses. I need to verify what I remember about this, but I believe that anyone breeding AKC registered dogs can list for sale on the AKC Marketplace. No further proof of anything is needed or asked for. (I'll edit if needed after I check this.)

Now that you're here at PF, I'm going to drop some starting info for you, including a partial Breeder List. Every name on the list has been recommended by a PF member or several, or I have found them by searching thru websites for breeders that the recommended breeder also recommends. Then I went to every website and/or the OFA site and/or a general internet search to verify any health testing done. I only did this initially, before adding them to the list. It's up to the seeker to verify the breeders current standing.

A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" often favor the breeder ultimately, more than the buyer.

We all understand having color preferences but you really are limiting yourself by being open to only one color. A quality, conscientious breeder will help you in selecting a dog suited to your lifestyle and current needs. What if the pup that suits you best is a different color?

As for being on multiple waitlists, even if no money has changed hands, I hope you've mentioned to all of them that you're on more than one list. Some breeders consider that a promise and plan puppy placement around that promise.

You'll find websites often lacking certain information or downright outdated. This is not a red flag by itself. As a rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature _only_ cutesy puppies with bows and such, no info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal button "for your convenience".

As often as not, breeders are old school in communicating and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated. Amity is a breeder that I considered and would again if I was looking.

As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, I'll drop my personal criteria:

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated.
Be prepared to spend in the range of $1500 to up to $3000 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important to know why they matter in choosing a conscientious breeder, and to get a well bred puppy to share life with.

Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time .

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.
Breeding Program 
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
Dog Search
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog
Additional DNA testing might be found at labs such as PawPrints or Embark. These do not replace the OFA testing but complement it.

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
does the contract/guarantee/warranty rule out covering conditions the parents should have been tested for
do you fully understand the terms of any contract/guarantee/warranty and can you live with them
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"


! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩

You’ll find health information and links in the list (great strides there in the science), then when you move to the breeder listings don't skip the multi state listings, and particularly don't skip the Poodle Club of America Breeder Referral for your region (or search "Poodle Club of ___"). 

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist.


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## milktea (Dec 21, 2020)

I have asked to add me in the notification list of several breeders from AKC marketplace, but just recently found this website that is super useful: poodleonline.com. Many of them are not listed in the AKC marketplace at all! Should I let the breeders know that I added myself to multiple waiting list? I haven't put down a deposit yet. My understanding is that the waitlist/notification list can be long, and only when the puppies are born we know if they can satisfy gender and color preference. If I commit to a breeder before a puppy is born if no puppy satisfies my color/gender preference, I need to wait half a year perhaps. Is the process usually to limit to one breeder and just wait? I have expanded my color preference to silver as well...


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

If you've simply filled out some sort of "notify me when puppies are back in stock", and you've never otherwise communicated with the breeder or they with you, by phone call or text or email, then no.

If you've contacted more than one breeder and asked to go on their private waitlist, then yes, it's good policy to let them know. How would you feel if a friend asks you to give them a ride somewhere, so you rearrange a few things and when you show up, they tell you at their door that they've made other arrangements and don't need you after all.

I don't mean this in a disparaging way but it's the only analogy I can think of. This process is not like selecting several different lottery game tickets, hoping you've picked a winner. You place all your money on one big win. I'm frankly surprised that at least one hasn't asked for a deposit of hard, nonrefundable but transferable, cash to be placed on their waitlist.

From https://rufflyspeaking.net/puppy-buyer-ettiquette/

_4) PLEASE DO NOT GET ON MORE THAN ONE WAITING LIST unless you are VERY honest about it.

This goes back to rule 1. You need to understand that we think our puppy buyers are just as in love with the puppies as we are. We’re posting pictures, writing up instructions, burning thumb drives, researching everything from pedigrees to nail grinding, all so we can hand off this puppy, this supreme glorious creature of wonderfulness, with the absolute maximum chance that it will lead a fabulous life with you, and we’ve built all kinds of air castles in our heads about how happy this puppy will be, and what it will do in its life with you, and so on.

Finding out that you had your name on four lists shows that you don’t realize that puppies are not packages of lunch meat, where getting one from Shaws is basically the same as getting one from Stop and Shop.

Also, as soon as your name is on one of our lists, we’re turning away puppy buyers. If we’ve sent ten people elsewhere because our list is full, and then suddenly you say “Oh, yeah, I got a puppy from someone else,” it really toasts our bread. So just BE HONEST. If someone came to me and said “I’m on a list with So and So, but she’s pretty sure she won’t have a puppy for me, and I’d love to be considered for one of your dogs and I’ll let you know just as soon as I know,” I’m FINE with that. I understand how this goes. It’s not a disaster for me to have a puppy “left over” at eight weeks because you ended up getting that So and So puppy; it’s just frustrating to have the rug yanked out from under me.

7) PLEASE FINISH THE ENCOUNTER WITH ONE BREEDER BEFORE BEGINNING ONE WITH ANOTHER. If you end a conversation with me saying “Well, this just all sounds wonderful, and I’m going to talk it over with my wife and we’ll call you about getting on your waiting list,” and then you hang up and call the next person on your list, that’s not OK.

If you don’t feel like you click with me, or you want to keep your options open, a very easy way to say it is to ask for the names and numbers of other breeders I recommend. That way I know we’re not “going steady,” and I won’t pencil you in on my list. If you are on my waiting list, and you decide that you don’t want to be anymore, call me AS SOON AS YOU KNOW and say “Joanna, I’m so sorry, but our life has gotten a little crazy and I need to be taken off the puppy list.” And I will make sympathetic noises and take you off. If, then, you decide you want to get a different puppy, be my guest. Just keep me apprised and let me close off my commitment to you before you open it with another breeder.

…Which brings us to something that is super important and most puppy people don’t realize:

8 ) EVERY BREEDER KNOWS EVERY OTHER BREEDER. Now of course I don’t mean the bad breeders, but the show breeding community is VERY small and VERY close-knit.

If you’ve been on my list for three months, I’ve kept in contact with you, I think you’re getting a puppy from me, I’m carefully considering which one to sell you, and finally I match you with a puppy when they’re eight weeks old, and THEN you e-mail me and say “Sorry, I got a puppy from Arizona, bye,” my instant reaction isn’t going to be “Oh noes!” My instant reaction is going to be “From Jill?”

I probably e-mail Jill several times a year, if not several times a month, and I’m probably going to pick up the phone in the next sixty seconds and say, “Did you just sell a puppy to Horace Green from Topeka? Did you know that he put himself on my waiting list three months ago and has been saying all along how excited he is?” And two minutes after that she’ll get a call from Anne in Oregon and Anne will say “Did you just sell a puppy to Horace Green from Topeka? He’s been feeding me lines for eight weeks! I had a puppy ready to go to him next week!”

And we will take your name in vain, Horace Green from Topeka, and Jill will feel bad that she sold you a puppy, and oh the bad words we will say. And Horace Green from Topeka will be a topic of conversation at the next Nationals, and t-shirts will be made that say “DON’T BE A HORACE,” and someone will name their puppy Horrible Horace and everyone will get the joke and laugh.

In the end, “Be excellent to each other,” as Bill and Ted so correctly ordered us, is pretty much the paradigm to follow. If you err, err on the side of this being a relationship, not a transaction. Try to act the way you would with a good friend, not with an appliance salesman. And the ending will be as happy for you as it is happy for us._



The website you found is a good multi state resource. That's why it's in the Breeder List I linked for you .



milktea said:


> If I commit to a breeder before a puppy is born if no puppy satisfies my color/gender preference, I need to wait half a year perhaps. Is the process usually to limit to one breeder and just wait?


In a word, yes. I understand that you feel that you're only looking for a puppy, but I promise, what you're really looking for is a breeder that you communicate well and easily with, a breeder who you will be comfortable with for the entire life of your pup because they will be there for you thru that whole life. Just as you make a commitment to a puppy for years, the breeder makes a commitment to you.

What do you want from a puppy? Someone to hike with? to hang out and watch tv with? to participate in agility competitions? to become a therapy dog? The right breeder for you will result in the right puppy for you.

From the same site above:

*1) STOP LOOKING FOR A PUPPY.*_ The classic mistake puppy buyers make is saying “I need an xx breed puppy at the beginning of the fall” or whatever it may be. So they go out looking for litters due in August.

BAD IDEA.

Puppies are not interchangeable; one is not the same as the others. This is because every breeder has their stop-the-presses criteria for breeding or not breeding, and each has preferences for size, personality, working ability, etc. Breeder X’s “perfect puppy” is not the same as Breeder Y’s.

*Stop looking for a puppy; look for a BREEDER.* Make a personal connection with a breeder you feel shares your top criteria, and then wait for a puppy from them. Maybe they even have a litter on the ground, which is wonderful, but maybe they’re not planning anything for a few months. Or maybe they’re not planning anything for a year; in that case, ask for a referral to another breeder that shares those same priorities and has a similar (or just as good) personality and support ethic.

However it works out, screen the breeder first, then ask about a puppy._

We all know how hard it is to wait for something wanted so much, who'll be with you for years to come. This is why it's so important to find the right breeder who'll provide that companion for you, then get on their list.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I haven't asked this yet but what experience do you have with dogs in general and standard poodles in particular? 
What about standards appeals to you?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Rose n Poos, as always, has good information. 

Additional resources for finding available litters would include regional breed clubs (lists of breed clubs are available on the AKC site, and then the regional club's web site would list the local contact.)

UKC breeders are also worth considering, especially if you are willing to consider a puppy with white markings. Unlike AKC, UKC allows partis, phantoms, and undocked tails in conformation classes. The best of UKC breeders are quite serious about conformation and health testing; they just feel more at home outside the AKC for various reasons.

Years ago I found a link for a group of breeders specializing in reds and apricots. They seem not to be very active online lately, and some are no longer breeding at all, but it might be worth checking them out. Apricot Red Poodle Club - Red Apricot Poodle Club

Gooddog.com supposedly evaluates breeders based on the amount of testing they do. I would still approach the recommendations with a caveat emptor attitude, but at least any breeder who has chosen to list on that site shouldn't be shocked when their customers are interested in health testing.

Finally, I often look up show results and then search out kennels listed in the pedigrees of the successful dogs. These searches turn up lot of small hobby breeders who often don't do much to market themselves.


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## milktea (Dec 21, 2020)

Hmm I think I have messed it up. I have contacted many breeders on the akc marketplace. Many of them I cannot find a website. Then I found your forum, and I saw a lot of breeders who don't list them on the AKC marketplace but their website has very good information about the parents and their testing results.... Now I am not sure if I want to choose a breeder listed on AKC marketplace but doesn't have a website at all and don't have information clearly listed.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

milktea said:


> I think I have messed it up.


What you're doing is learning. That's a good thing.
Not all breeders listing on the Marketplace are breeders who meet the criteria you specified for proper testing.
Not all breeders have websites.
Not all breeders have websites that have the information you're looking for listed.
What I hope you're taking onboard is what to look for, where to find it, and what to ask when you communicate with a breeder before signing on to a waitlist with any breeder.

More shortly...


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

milktea said:


> I have contacted many breeders on the akc marketplace


A quick round 2...

How many breeders do you think you've contacted?
What was the form of the contact, phone call, email or text?
Have you had back and forth communications with any of them where you asked questions about them and their poodles, and they asked you about your experience with poodles, knowledge of poodles (grooming requirements, cost of grooming, health issues in the breed, etc)?
Have you filled out applications to go on waitlists after you and the breeder have learned some things about each other, so that they're expecting to see it from you?

The AKC Marketplace is no more than a resource for breeders with AKC registered pups. Some will be stellar breeders, some will not. The AKC Marketplace is not the best benchmark to use.

The resources in the List and the recommendations from cowpony are better because health testing is a requirement to list there. What we can't guarantee is how thorough or encompassing that testing is.

If you go to the List you'll see the OFA minimum testing criteria for toys, miniatures, and standards.

Using Amity as an example. They list on the Marketplace, they have a website but that website doesn't list some of what you're looking for. If it's health testing, you have two choices: contact the breeder and ask what testing they do and/or go to the OFA site and type in "Amity" as the kennel name to search here (this is also on the List)








Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Our dog search tool allows you to search parents and relatives of your potential new puppy by dog name, breed, disease type and more. Look up a dog today!




www.ofa.org





You get 296 results. Filter those first by going to the Birth Date at the far right and select for newest first.

You'll get this page








Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Use our advanced search tool to find information and reports by registration number, animal name, breed, special programs, report type and more.




www.ofa.org





It's not all poodles because the search isn't limited to poodles only (and these additional breeds are not likely to be from the same Amity who's in Minnesota) but you'll see the most recent dogs tested, so they're most likely the dog/s being bred, or are being considered for breeding when they're older. Select any poodle born at least 2 years ago, say "Amity's Ms Leticia Ortiz" and you'll be here








Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Use our advanced search tool to find information and reports by registration number, animal name, breed, special programs, report type and more.




www.ofa.org





There you'll see the testing done on her and links to her sire and dam and other related poodles.

How do you know what's good? Look thru the OFA site to learn, or ask the breeder or come back here and ask.

This is how I learned .


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Based on that AKC listing, it seems like Amity is a relatively new breeder in Utah. Amity Valley is a long established breeder in Minnesota. Just a little extra confusion!


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Here are two up north from you to consider with beautiful red, DNA health tested Spoos, although not in California.

Farleys D Standard Poodles in Washington state appears to have 9 week old red pups.

Gingerbred Standard Poodles in Gig Harbor, WA. They have a current litter but I don't know if they're all spoken for. Does health testing according to website, and with all breeders request original paperwork or see results on the DNA website. Deep red coloring.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

cowpony said:


> Based on that AKC listing, it seems like Amity is a relatively new breeder in Utah. Amity Valley is a long established breeder in Minnesota. Just a little extra confusion!


Thanks for catching that!


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## milktea (Dec 21, 2020)

Thanks for all the good advice. I found that an akc breeder of merit breeder is going to have a litter soon that possibly can have a color and gender that I prefer. The breeder was recommended on this forum a few years ago. They appear in shows very often and I believe they breed to have another show dog. However I cannot find the test results of the sire and dam and the dam only has her hip tested on OFA. Is this a red flag? I guess I already answered my question, but does this happen often? I believe the breeder used to have their website as I can tell from the forum, but right now I don't know what I should do as I have seen many breeders who show their OFA tests but the tests are not complete or eyes not updated or missing the hip test on a dam because they could not find any vet that does X-ray.... It just seems like the majority of the breeders don't do the complete tests as recommended by OFA.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

For me, a breeder that doesn't do hips would be a hard pass. 

If the breeder has chosen not to test to CHIC levels, I would want to know the heath of the grandparents and great grandparents. How many of them are still alive at age 12? Did any of them develop a chronic condition younger than age 10?


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Milktea, you are so very lucky to have Rose N Poos personally responding to you if you are a really serious buyer of a top quality poodle! She has probably done more research into hundreds of breeders than anyone. I so hope you listen to what she is saying. (Thanks Rose N Poos!)

My first thought when discovering and reading your first post on this thread, and you saying what you did about AKC Marketplace was that most of the very top breeders don't very often advertise. They don't need to because they are such awesome well known breeders. 

If you are now concerned that you have found breeders without all of their information online, such as test results, etc., realize that they are focusing on their amazing dogs, not on their website. If you are serious about wanting more information on one of the breeders and their incredible dogs, go ahead and email and call to ask for the information. First of course try to find the information at OFA, or other sites which could have what you want. (Go back and re-read what Rose N Poos has to say, including the links she includes). Then, when you have done your research, and call a breeder, it will let them know that you are serious enough, and know enough to want dogs with good test results. 

This is a great learning experience for you! I congratulate you on wanting to know more. Too many buyers do not bother to be educated and end up buying from a lesser breeder. I learned my lesson 11 years ago when I ended up buying my puppy from an awesome breeder. He was the absolute opposite of what I wanted in gender, color, etc. And he is the love of my life! I could not have ended up with a more perfectly matched life long mate.

Oh my, apologies. I meant to write two sentences and obviously got totally carried away! Wishing you the very best


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Do you have the registered names of both sire and dam and checked using those, or do you only have the kennel name?

If you looked at OFA using only the kennel name, it's common and likely that the sire is owned by a different breeder and would be listed under that different kennel name.

If you found the dam on OFA, you can look back thru her pedigree for as many gen's as have been tested and posted.

Looking under the info of the dam, you'll usually see additional headers with more dog's names. You can keep going back thru the lines for any OFA health testing:

Sire/Dam (Click name for info)
and
Grandparent (Click name for info)

An alternative is to select "Vertical Pedigree" above the dam's info and you'll see basically the same info but in a different format.


Cowpony and Kontiki give good advice, to talk to the breeder and ask about the health of the lines going back several generations, and ask about the sire also. You're going to find that a lot of breeders that are listing some results on OFA may not show the full testing. This could be for several reasons.

Some depend on the knowledge of the health of their lines and those of the other kennel (if) and may not test for that particular condition.

The testing may have been done and the results just not entered, or not entered yet. Small caution here...it is up to the breeder to choose to list results since there may be a small fee to do so. I believe that they can also choose to not have less than desirable results published but I can't find the page on the OFA site right now that spells this info out.

To receive the CHIC certification, they must _do _all of those tests listed over on the Breeder List _but they do not have to pass them_. Remember OFA is a database, not a regulatory body. They provide a great deal to breeders, owners, and vets, but virtually nothing to do with breeding any dogs is regulated by any private or governmental agencies, with the exception of the USDA governing regulations dealing with animal welfare, in larger scale breeding.

This is part of why many of us at PF put so much into helping new members know as much as they can about the very big picture when choosing a breeder.

-------------------------

I don't remember if you responded to my early question about your experience with dogs, puppies, and poodles, or what temperament you want in a poodle, or what kinds of, if any, activities you think you might do together. This is important so we can be sure to give you the best start possible under any circumstances.

Poodles are challenging and many people get unhappily surprised by some of these challenges.

I'm going to drop two more links for you to look thru. One is focusing on the thrills and terrors of raising a poodle puppy and the other is the same for adolescent poodles. It's good to be prepared. 

How do you feel about landsharks and counter surfers?

Puppy reality
Poodle Adolescence - Support Group

--------------------------

I keep bringing up temperament and activity for several reasons. This is one not yet mentioned. Most reds will not keep their color. Poodle color genetics is fascinating but not completely, clearly understood. Most poodle coat colors fade.

I'm out of my element here so I'll quote one of our breeder/members from another current thread:


NOLA Standards said:


> _Red poodles aren't exactly "rare", though they are often marketed that way... And, the bad thing is that far too many breeders focus only on color, as several of the posters have mentioned, and when they do that, they sacrifice the rest of the dog, though they may lack the eye to see that.
> 
> Color breeding is difficult, whether brownies or silver or apricots and reds - I'll even mention partis. Being recessive, to consistently produce the color (read that as produce puppies to sell) consistently, they must breed like to like (red to red or apricot - parti to parti - brownie to brownie, you get the idea). Breeding like to like will only ever produce like and will never produce improvement. That's my soapbox. _
> 
> ...


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This is my go-to site for a general explanation of poodle colors and the genetics behind them:

COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES

Would it bother you to bring home a puppy, just the color you wanted, and then watch that color lighten as the pup gets older?


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Rose N Poos! You have just inspired me to write and give an update to my Spoos breeder in a Christmas greeting. Thank you. Good breeders forever care about the poodles they have bred


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)




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## milktea (Dec 21, 2020)

I am in a dilemma right now. So I found a breeder that has the color and the gender that I want, and he is an AKC breeder of merit. I can see that his dogs have won a lot of titles. I looked up the sire and dam. Sire has all testing recommended by OFA and has a CHIC icon. (He did not have elbow test tested on him though. Side question how important is elbow test? I see that it is mentioned but not required by OFA to have an CHIC certificate.) However the Dam is an import and the breeder provided a NE test to me but not hip, eye, and cardiac. He says it takes time for AKC to the imported Dam. This breeder is reputed on this forum like more than 5 years ago but I don't see any mentioning afterwards. However I know he is actively in the community and two breeders that I contacted (both have good tests on their dogs on their websites) both referred me to him. I looked up the breeders dog on OFA and there are many, just not the Dam. Is this a go or not go? Any advice?


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

A few weeks ago Elana had 6-7 red males ready to go home a week or two after Christmas. She's up in Washington. Same momma as my Basil. They did puppy culture, and I had a pack of paperwork. 









Sunset Standard Poodles


Sunset Standard Poodles, Woodinville, WA. 663 likes · 86 talking about this. Puppies with Quality Theropy lines and Loving temperaments.




www.facebook.com












Poodle Puppies Near Me | Standard Poodle Breeder | United States


Red Standard Poodle puppies with health testing complete and health guarentee




www.sunsetstandardpoodles.com




@Sunset Standard Poodles

She's pretty responsive via text.

One of her pups from the liter in question is going to a guy on the NY Jets


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## milktea (Dec 21, 2020)

Basil_the_Spoo said:


> A few weeks ago Elana had 6-7 red males ready to go home a week or two after Christmas. She's up in Washington. Same momma as my Basil. They did puppy culture, and I had a pack of paperwork.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have contacted her before. She only has one female red puppy when I contacted, but I was looking for a male. So it didn't work out. She is very nice, offered me to carry the puppy on her sister/cousin's flight back to California so that I can save a bit on the flight nanny fee.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

milktea said:


> I am in a dilemma right now. So I found a breeder that has the color and the gender that I want, and he is an AKC breeder of merit. I can see that his dogs have won a lot of titles. I looked up the sire and dam. Sire has all testing recommended by OFA and has a CHIC icon. (He did not have elbow test tested on him though. Side question how important is elbow test? I see that it is mentioned but not required by OFA to have an CHIC certificate.) However the Dam is an import and the breeder provided a NE test to me but not hip, eye, and cardiac. He says it takes time for AKC to the imported Dam. This breeder is reputed on this forum like more than 5 years ago but I don't see any mentioning afterwards. However I know he is actively in the community and two breeders that I contacted (both have good tests on their dogs on their websites) both referred me to him. I looked up the breeders dog on OFA and there are many, just not the Dam. Is this a go or not go? Any advice?


I am a little unclear about this. Did you ask the breeder if she had hip testing?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

milktea said:


> (He did not have elbow test tested on him though. Side question how important is elbow test? I see that it is mentioned but not required by OFA to have an CHIC certificate.)


If it's a standard poodle you're looking at, this is copied from the Breeder list link provided and is findable on the OFA site:

*Standard Minimum Testing Criteria
Hip *Dysplasia evaluation from an approved agency
*Eye* clearance by the Companion Animal Eye Registry (CAER)

*Plus Health Elective* (*At least one* of the following tests):
OFA *Thyroid *evaluation from an approved laboratory
OFA *SA Evaluation* from an approved dermapathologist
*Congenital Cardiac* Exam
*Advanced Cardiac* Exam



milktea said:


> However the Dam is an import and the breeder provided a NE test to me but not hip, eye, and cardiac. He says it takes time for AKC to the imported Dam


I'm writing this from memory so I may have some things not quite right. The OFA and AKC sites are the sources. Imported poodles and other purebreds are not uncommon. Any testing will be to their home country's breed club standards but can usually be listed on OFA. The dog may be registered with a purebred registry in their home country, and if imported to the US then getting AKC registry makes sense _but_ OFA accepts many international dogs. Listing on OFA is not limited to US dogs.

I'm not fully following the trail here. If the dam has been health tested in her home country, then those tests may or may not be the same as for OFA. If there's more than just the NE, can you be given a copy of her results for what was tested wherever? Is NE the Neonatal Encephalopathy test? That's genetic testing and can be done as an individual test or as part of a panel of tests.

Getting registered with the AKC is likely to allow the dam to participate in AKC events and will allow offspring to be registered with the AKC as purebreds.



milktea said:


> This breeder is reputed on this forum like more than 5 years ago but I don't see any mentioning afterwards.


That's not unusual at all when you start considering the math.

PF is listed as having over 20,000 members. That's really misleading.
First, that number is since PF started in 2007. Many members join just to ask a question or a few and then stop participating, or they're here for the lifetime of their poodle and then stop participating.
Of the regularly participating members, which rotate as the membership ebbs and flows, at any given period of time, I'd generally guess around 200-250 members regularly participate.

I'm still searching for how many poodle breeders there are in the US, whether top of the line or bottom of the barrel.
The ASPCA estimates around 2000 federally licensed (larger scale, for profit style) breeders. There would easily be at least that number or more of breeders operating under that radar, and let's say half that number, around 1000 breeders who are or are trying to be what I think of as quality breeders.

This is all really just guesstimating but if you have around 250 active members and around 1000 quality breeders and both of those populations change thru time, it's not really odd that a breeder may not be mentioned by more than a few people more than a few times thru a few years.




milktea said:


> This breeder is reputed on this forum like more than 5 years ago but I don't see any mentioning afterwards. However I know he is actively in the community and two breeders that I contacted (both have good tests on their dogs on their websites) both referred me to him. I looked up the breeders dog on OFA and there are many, just not the Dam. Is this a go or not go? Any advice?





milktea said:


> I am in a dilemma right now


This is a decision that only you can make. Do you feel that you have enough information to make it? Do you feel comfortable with the breeder? Are they someone you feel you could turn to for the next 15 years?

Occasionally I see new members hit the analysis paralysis wall and you might be there. There's always going to be some risk, no matter all the care you put into making your decision. Do you feel that you could commit to this breeder with the information you have and not wish you'd done something else?


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## milktea (Dec 21, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> I am a little unclear about this. Did you ask the breeder if she had hip testing?


Yes. I asked. He said he tested the hip, and also did an NE test. He sent me the NE result but not the hip. But he is well known in the breeder and show community I think, and I can also find people recommended him on this forum like at minimum five years ago. He is also a AKC breeder of merit. A breeder that has a lot of documents on their puppies also referred me to him. So I don't know if I should insist on seeing the results. The Sire is a show dog and has all the results updated - hip, eye, and cardiac - not elbow though (I see this is not required to get a CHIC. Anybody know if it is very important). But no information on the Dam except for the NE results. I am able to look up dogs with the same breeder name (guess it is the Italian breeder?), but cannot find her information there.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

milktea said:


> Yes. I asked. He said he tested the hip, and also did an NE test. He sent me the NE result but not the hip.


Ask for the hip. If he doesn't send it, or it is not up to par, no go. I do not trust people who do not give me requested information. Best of luck. 

I am wondering if you are really reading and understanding all of the information and answers provided here? Or are you only looking for answers that are what you want to hear?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

kontiki said:


> Or are you only looking for answers that are what you want to hear?


I don't get that impression at all, @kontiki.  I have a lot of respect for puppy buyers who do enough research to even know which questions to ask! Just getting to that point can be tricky.

I've been watching this discussion with interest, @milktea. It's nice to see someone learning new information, processing it, and actually allowing it to shape their decision, rather than turning a blind eye to inconvenient facts (which can be awfully tempting when you've got puppy fever). I made sooo many mistakes in my poodle purchase process, despite my best intentions. I didn't even know how much I didn't know. I _wish_ I'd discovered Poodle Forum sooner.

All this to say, don't get discouraged! You may not find the PERFECT breeder. (Does such a thing even exist? Maybe? But not everyone will agree on who it is!) The important thing is you're taking the time to educate yourself so you can make the best possible decision for you and your future puppy.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I have a lot of respect for puppy buyers who do enough research to even know which questions to ask! Just getting to that point can be tricky.
> 
> I've been watching this discussion with interest, @milktea. It's nice to see someone learning new information, processing it, and actually allowing it to shape their decision, rather than turning a blind eye to inconvenient facts (which can be awfully tempting when you've got puppy fever). I made sooo many mistakes in my poodle purchase process, despite my best intentions. I didn't even know how much I didn't know.


Totally agree!!! Hope that momentary discouraged thought is proven very wrong Sending best wishes for sure milktea!


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## milktea (Dec 21, 2020)

kontiki said:


> Totally agree!!! Hope that momentary discouraged thought is proven very wrong Sending best wishes for sure milktea!





Rose n Poos said:


> If it's a standard poodle you're looking at, this is copied from the Breeder list link provided and is findable on the OFA site:
> 
> *Standard Minimum Testing Criteria
> Hip *Dysplasia evaluation from an approved agency
> ...


Yes. NE is the Neonatal Encephalopathy test. The result is good, however it doesn't substitute hip and eye and cardiac. So I asked for them but no reply. I think the perfect breeder exists (who has every information I need and has the color and gender that I prefer, I am also willing to fly there to pick the puppy up if they are not nearby). I was just a bit discouraged that I have contacted so many breeders and after I got new information from this forum I checked them up and most of them don't have the tests recommended by OFA, some have but I can see that the dog's grandpa has eye issue, and the mom doesn't have hip results so it was a no-go for me. This breeder however has won so many titles, and is friend to a breeder on whose websites has all results information listed on their dogs, so it was a surprise to me that he didn't give me enough information on the dam. Honestly I don't know if it is a go or no go. What's the chance of me being unlucky? If the breeder knows so much and his sire dog is listed as CHIC, then he must know what he is doing unlike other breeders that I contacted who even asked me what tests I need. Do I want to wait extra two months and pay 500 more to make sure both sire and dam has good results? I don't know. I just expect that the breeder knows what he is doing and if he imports a dog he knows that he is importing a healthy one. But honestly I don't know when a experienced breeder imports a dog what requirements they will have in mind and what my chances are to get a puppy can get sick when he gets older.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

milktea said:


> I think the perfect breeder exists (who has every information I need and has the color and gender that I prefer, I am also willing to fly there to pick the puppy up if they are not nearby). I was just a bit discouraged that I have contacted so many breeders and after I got new information from this forum I checked them up and most of them don't have the tests recommended by OFA, some have but I can see that the dog's grandpa has eye issue, and the mom doesn't have hip results so it was a no-go for me


I'm not trying to discourage your optimism but there is such a small likelihood of a breeder having everything you want and here are some reasons why:

*A breeder cannot guarantee that they will have a puppy in the color and gender you want until the puppies are born. Even then, the gender will not change but the color might. *
Long before they're born, for the kind of quality breeder you're looking for (and good for you on this!), you and others will need to be on their waitlist, and you will generally need to put down a deposit which tends to run from $500 to half the purchase price once those pups are on the ground, if not before.

If your preference isn't born in that litter then you will usually be able to wait for the next.

You still aren't mentioning temperament. You can't believe how important a good match is until you get the puppy not suited to you home. A quality breeder will insist on that. That's called a rehome waiting to happen if you don't account for temperament. That's sad for all.

Are you asking the breeders why they don't have this test or that test listed? There may be valid reasons that they aren't.
What you see on the OFA site is just the beginning of the story, and is confirmation of information offered but it is not the whole story.

Are you understanding why a breeder may use a dog with a less than good result to breed? This may be because that dog has excellent something else, and the less than good condition they do not suffer from, but are a carrier. With that knowledge, it will be known not to breed that dog to another carrier and the next generation will be healthier.

Not all dogs tested are bred. This is part of why the testing is done, to breed away from the undesirable conditions.

_Most people are waiting 6 months and more *after* finding the breeder they want their puppy from. _



milktea said:


> what my chances are to get a puppy can get sick when he gets older.


*Absolutely no one and no testing will guarantee that a pup won't get sick or develop a condition that isn't typically tested for, or can't be tested for as the genetic cause isn't identified yet. There are no guarantees. The testing will just better yours and your pups odds for known and tested for conditions.*

For another example, you'll still want to seriously consider having pet insurance while you build your poodle emergency fund.
Are you aware of what surgical repair of a torn CCL due to injury will cost? Several thousand dollars is not an exaggeration.
Are you aware of the potentially deadly condition known as gastric dilation volvulus? No tests exist to predict injury or bloat.

You are learning why these things are important, how they help improve your pup's life, but you are still putting this puzzle together.



milktea said:


> Honestly I don't know if it is a go or no go. What's the chance of me being unlucky? If the breeder knows so much and his sire dog is listed as CHIC, then he must know what he is doing unlike other breeders that I contacted who even asked me what tests I need. Do I want to wait extra two months and pay 500 more to make sure both sire and dam has good results? I don't know. I just expect that the breeder knows what he is doing and if he imports a dog he knows that he is importing a healthy one. But honestly I don't know when a experienced breeder imports a dog what requirements they will have in mind and what my chances are to get a puppy can get sick when he gets older.


This just isn't a decision that can be made for you. There is a chance of being unlucky but it could come from different sources. I think it's safe to say that if a breeder is spending the time, effort and money to import a dog to add to their breeding program, there's a very good chance they know exactly what they're doing. If they are recommended by or thought well of by other breeders of the same caliber, that's a very good sign. They'll be going to these extra lengths because that dog has something they want to add to their breeding program and they're not going to jeopardize their kennel by breeding badly.

This is more than fulfilling a dream of having a beautiful standard poodle at the end of your leash, more even than driving yourself to wit's end trying to make the best decisions.

It's all the day to day realities of housetraining, saying bye bye to your favorite shoes after finding them chewed up, or the furniture legs, finding a scrunchie or undies missing as you watch the last of them get sucked into the pups mouth and the trip to the ER vet, helping your pup learn that the trash truck is not an evil alien come to earth just to scare poodles...


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

If you really like this breeder, maybe ask for a phone call. It can be easier to speak to somebody rather than type. Sometimes written words makes it harder to phrase a question tactfully. Tell them you love their dogs and their program and you have heard good things about them, and you are just trying to double check everything and is it possible they could send a verification of hip testing just so you feel you have done your homework to make a responsible choice.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

@milktea , These are the basic genetic DNA tests for a Standard Poodle for you to know and ask to see from every breeder:










It's from Paw Print Genetics, here's the link, and if you click on each condition, there's a summary of the problem. They also have frequent sales, the current one is 50% off, so the entire panel would cost only $137.50. Other DNA labs do these same tests for a package price, some with even other tests that rarely if ever affect poodles such as Embark. Their package price is $199, but also has sales.

OFA does NOT require DNA testing which is short-sighted on their part since it gives puppy buyers a false sense of security. A sire and dam can pass with flying colors the hip xrays. OFA also requires only one of these tests for Spoos: *thyroid, cardiac, or SA.* There is no DNA test for those.











Ideally the breeder will test all three (few do, all that testing is expensive) but will know the health history of the dog's relatives. Also keep in mind that dog health problems such as those can skip generations, the same as people.

OFA requires an eye exam by an ophthalmologist. I'm not sure if the PRA genetic tests are included in those pricey exams, if not it could be missed until the dog is 3 to 5 years old and is developing blindness.

I also know nothing about Elbow Dysplasia which is not required by OFA, and I couldn't recall reading threads about it here, so it appears to be uncommon in Spoos. And advanced google search for it strictly on PF pulled up these threads.

Back to DNA. Good breeders will have an account at their DNA lab website. They can give you the link to see the test results. 

I do not understand why this breeder would test the dam only for NE, unless he/she:

1) Has other DNA test results from the poodle's country of origin, or
2) the bitch's sire and dam (the pup's four grandparents) tested negative for those other conditions.
3) or they're hiding something.

A note regarding DNA test results:

A dog will test as:

clear, 
a carrier, 
or affected on each DNA.
A carrier of the PRA conditions will never develop the disease. No worries, they make fine, healthy pets unless otherwise noted, and unless you plan to breed it then you wouldn't want to breed it another PRA carrier.

This is not true of Von Willebrand Disease, where a carrier might still develop the disorder (link) and pass along those genes to 50% of the offspring.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Also I'd keep looking before giving a deposit on this particular breeder's pup unless or until he can show evidence of the hip xrays and additional DNA tests on the female.


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## milktea (Dec 21, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I'm not trying to discourage your optimism but there is such a small likelihood of a breeder having everything you want and here are some reasons why:
> 
> *A breeder cannot guarantee that they will have a puppy in the color and gender you want until the puppies are born. Even then, the gender will not change but the color might. *
> Long before they're born, for the kind of quality breeder you're looking for (and good for you on this!), you and others will need to be on their waitlist, and you will generally need to put down a deposit which tends to run from $500 to half the purchase price once those pups are on the ground, if not before.
> ...


I thought finding a good breeder can almost guarantee good temperament.... no?.....


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

milktea said:


> thought finding a good breeder can almost guarantee good temperament.... no?.....


Good temperament and suitable temperament are two different things.

Good temperament merely means the dog is free from extreme personality issues: fearfulness, anxiety, aggression, and so forth. Yes, for the most part dogs from show lines should be free of these problems. A dog that can't hold it together won't win in the ring.

However, there is also the question of whether a dog has the right personality for YOU. Earlier this year I reached out to a breeder about a litter from from a pair with multiple performance titles going back several generations. She advised me all the pups from this pair were likely to be too high drive and high energy for my household. Wrong pup for me, but I expect one of these pups might have done quite well with someone like lily cd re.

I think a good puppy owner should have a realistic idea of what they can and cannot give a dog. Does the family have cats, small children, pet rabbits? Does the family collect a pension, work from home, or leave the dog every day? Does someone in the household need a walker or a wheelchair to get around? 

Some dogs are high drive and won't do well around fragile creatures. Some dogs are very clingy and won't do well left alone. A good breeder, even if they don't do Volhard testing on the litter, should have a general sense of how the litter will turn out.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Good points again by all above but you must remember:

_No testing whatsoever is required by any private or government entity._ 

The OFA database started as an orthopedic database so much of the testing you see will be the phenotype testing. They accept DNA testing and publish results if the owner pays the fee. You'll find all that info on the OFA website as well as the VIP site.
The CHIC certification requirements were voluntarily established and a dog does not even have to pass with good results:

_"OFA created the Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) by partnering with participating parent clubs to research and maintain information on the health issues prevalent in specific breeds. We’ve established a recommended protocol for breed-specific health screenings. Dogs tested in accordance with that protocol are recognized with a CHIC number and certification." 
"The CHIC number itself does not imply normal test results, only that all the required breed specific tests were performed and the results made publicly available." _

These tests are all breed specific, and in the case of poodles, variety specific also. That's why the standard, miniature and toy poodles all have different testing associated with the different varieties. 









CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


OFA's Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) provides information on health issues prevalent in specific breeds. Learn more about the CHIC program.




www.ofa.org












Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Browse our Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) to view disease statistics for various dog breeds. Contribute to the database by ordering a DNA test.




www.ofa.org












DNA Tested Diseases | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Order our DNA testing kit to test your dog or cat for common diseases. Tests can be done at home and results will be processed and reported to the owner.




www.ofa.org












Breed Statistics | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


View genetic disease statistics for your dog or cat breed. The OFA offers DNA testing, free educational resources and access to canine and feline research.




www.ofa.org






https://secure.ofa.org/regSums/POODLE.pdf



In addition to the testing thru or published by OFA, VIP has their own site which describes potential health issues:





Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.


Versatility In Poodles, Inc.




vipoodle.org









Health Related Links - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.


Versatility In Poodles, Inc.




vipoodle.org





The various Poodle Clubs will also have a lot of health information available but it's all basically hand in glove no matter which entity you are researching. 

Remember that not all issues can be tested for due to reasons listed in another post here or in your other thread. 

Not all breeders do the full OFA/CHIC testing for their breed or variety. Some reasons for this are listed in another post here or in your other thread. 

Not all breeders do any DNA testing on their dogs. 

There isn't a large number of breeders that do both the phenotype and genotype panel testing. Honestly, I can maybe think of one or two that I've run across in all my research. I can't be sure of that much without going back thru every site. 

If you expect breeders to have done_ all_ the possible testing, you are going to have a very, very, very short list to choose from, and that's not taking your gender and color preferences into account.

I know I'm repeating myself but there can be no guarantees of perfect health thru a lifetime regardless of how much testing is done. 
And this is not even to talk about the temperament of a dog you can live with thru those hopefully healthy years. 

When you get to this part of the conversation with a breeder, since you haven't described here what you want from the dog and what you hope to do with the dog in terms of activities, I'd suggest that you tell the breeder that you're looking for an "easy keeper", to borrow the phrase used here at PF. 




__





Choosing Your Puppy (PAT) | Volhard Dog Nutrition


Not sure who's the right dog for you? Use the Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test in selecting your dog, whether a puppy or an older dog.




www.volharddognutrition.com


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Raindrops said:


> If you really like this breeder, maybe ask for a phone call. It can be easier to speak to somebody rather than type. Sometimes written words makes it harder to phrase a question tactfully. Tell them you love their dogs and their program and you have heard good things about them, and you are just trying to double check everything and is it possible they could send a verification of hip testing just so you feel you have done your homework to make a responsible choice.


Yes a phone call might help. However, if they refuse to put it in writing then it is a definite no. Verbal doesn't count.



milktea said:


> I thought finding a good breeder can almost guarantee good temperament.... no?.....


No. That is sort of like a man choosing who to marry because she has beautiful red hair and comes from healthy famous parents. It is no indication she is a nice person that he would really want to live with for life.


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