# Poodle aggression - desperate!



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

This is a very sad situation and I’m sorry....for you and this poor poodle. 

Have you reached out to a certified behaviourist? This is who you need right now if you are wishing (and are able) to _safely_ put in the work. If not, I would be contacting a poodle rescue.

Since this boy wasn’t taken back by his breeder, but instead landed in a shelter, this tells me he may have questionable genetic origins. He may also have been under-socialized from a very young age. Plus, he’s been dealing with a health issue and corresponding treatment, and being shuttled around to new homes. A perfect storm. I imagine the re-homing process alone has left him in an insecure state.

While you’re waiting to hear back from a professional, I would encourage you to go easy on things like “tons of walks” (unless they’re loose-leashed sniffy walks in a low-key area) and fetch. Both can leave a high-strung boy very amped up, not just for hours after, but for _days_. If the next stressful walk or fetch session follows before his cortisol levels have returned to baseline, the effect will be even worse. Research “trigger stacking.”


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

you obviously have tons of good dog experience under your belt. You are the perfect kind of person with whom to rehome a dog like this one. He certainly has offered you a lot of challenges that you have met and handled really well.

I suspect that part of why you are seeing some of these aggressive and upsetting behaviors is because he finally feels well and is starting to understand the routines of your family and home. Since he never had limits placed on his activities in the past he is now pushing really hard to see what works and to try to see where the limits are. I agree with Peggy that you need expert outside help and that a certified behaviorist is your best bet. You can use the search tool at CCPDT to find a qualified expert. I think a behaviorist will be better than a trainer since I am a CCPDT certified trainer and think he sounds a little out of my comfort zone, so look for CBCC-KA (certified behavior consultant canine-knowledge assessed) at ccpdt.org

I wish you success, but understand it will not be feasible to live with a dog of whom you are afraid.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I'm so sorry, and ask you to immediately have your children disengage from him until you can learn more. This Poodle needs a vet visit right away with full workup, blood work including thyroid testing and whatever else your vet advises, hearing and sight evaluations, before anything else, except removing your children from close reasons. I have read of dogs becoming aggressive due to brain rumors, but that is rare. He could be in pain, too.

Does this Spoo have a safe place that is his alone to retreat to? If not, he needs that, seems to me. Not to solve this, but for other reasons.

I would not leave him out with the children if no parent is home. (I don't know your children's ages.)


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

Don't let him on the furniture anymore. Turn the cushions up if you have to or even put up a gate to keep him out. Never let him on a bed. I know it seems too simple, but it often works. It would be frustrating to go through lists of tests and behavior training if keeping him off the furniture will fix the problem.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Michigan Gal said:


> Don't let him on the furniture anymore. Turn the cushions up if you have to or even put up a gate to keep him out. Never let him on a bed. I know it seems too simple, but it often works. It would be frustrating to go through lists of tests and behavior training if keeping him off the furniture will fix the problem.


It’s more than just guarding furniture:



Howdy said:


> If it were just the couch, I would not worry as much. We will sadly keep him off it from now on as he is resource guarding it. But with him doing it in the car as well, and with him being aggressive towards my children AT ALL, I just don't know what to do.


I think a behaviourist could be helpful for assessment purposes, and this becomes doubly important with children in the home.

I also think humans often need a little training, and—speaking from personal experience—a behaviourist can help with this, too. For example, approaching a resting dog to give him a hug is never a good idea. Hugs in general may be tolerated by most dogs, but are rarely welcome. And the effects of well-intentioned actions like this can stack up over time, causing explosive responses seemingly out of the blue.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Well, I’m sorry but this dog would be out the door ! My children come first. This dog needs expert attention and training, and he is a ticking bomb for your children.

I love animals and will do anything for them and spend all the money I can, but I draw the line if they pose a threat to my family. Or myself.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I think the behaviorist is an excellent idea.


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## Footprints&pawmarks (Mar 8, 2021)

You've done so much for this dog -- he's very fortunate to have found you. Now it's time to add another professional to your Team Poodle. Here is the link to the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior: https://avsab.org/directory/

All of the people on this list are doctoral-level behaviorists, either veterinarians or Ph.D. - level behaviorists. If this were my dog, I would look for one of these people, if there is someone reasonably close to you. All have years of graduate-level training in behavior and behavior problems. The veterinary behaviorists can also prescribe medication, if they think that would be helpful.

Before you see your behaviorist, create a journal with detailed entries about each incident. You've done a good job for us here, but even more detail is useful. You almost can't have too much information. Time of day, location, who else (human and animal) was around, when had he last eaten, what was the weather like, what else had happened that day -- every bit of detail that you can remember will be helpful for your behaviorist.

I agree that your children's safety is the most important thing here. If you're in a conflict about what to do in a particular situation, do what is safest. It's that simple.

Have you taught him a "Place" command, to teach him to go to a particular mat or dog bed? "Place" should mean go to your mat, lie down there and stay until you are released. This is a very useful routine for all dogs, but especially those with problems with impulse control. When he is on his mat, no one should go near him -- no sitting with him, and no petting. It's his space. If you want to interact with him, he should be called off the mat. It's a place for him to relax, which is so important for dogs like this. It's also a safe place for him, where he knows that he will not be disturbed.

It's easy to teach -- toss a treat on the mat as you say "Place" (or whatever command you prefer). As he gets the treat, praise him. Step two is to add in a "Sit" command as soon as he gets onto the mat. Step three is to move to a "Down" command as he gets onto the mat. Step four is to gradually increase the time that he stays on the mat in the down position. Of course, all of your training is calm, friendly, and positive; with small high-value food rewards, and either a clicker or a verbal marker, your choice. 

This will give you something to work on while you are compiling your log and searching for a behaviorist who is skilled in and comfortable with working with aggressive dogs.

We're all sending you our best wishes for better times ahead. Thank you for all you've done for this big poodle.


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## Howdy (Oct 18, 2021)

To answer a few questions, he had full blood work done on Labor day and on a few days after. The big nerd got into grapes we had in a sack on the counter in the middle of the night (he had never even attempted to get onto the counter before that night). He was acting strangely in the morning and when I pieced it together I rushed him to the emergency vet (of course it was a holiday so much more $$). He had to stay overnight and had full blood work done to ensure he was ok.
I am a special education teacher and had to donate plasma after school multiple times in order to pay for his stay (Just finished).
There had also been extensive blood work done in July just before we got him due to his skin condition and a horrible skin lesion infection.
I fully understand not bothering a dog while resting, but when they are sitting fully awake and a child across the room says to come or they are in a car and a teenager says to come from several feet away, a dog should not react that way. It was not a fear or startle response or even just a warning growl, but a growl and barking while charging.
I have absolutely no idea how I will pay for therapy for this dog seeing as how my limited research shows it is around $175 for just an initial consultation and there are no certified behavior trainers within 30 miles of me which would up the cost for a home visit and I am struggling to pay down another child's medical bills.
Even worse than the money, my worst fear is that even after having a therapist come in, that WE people will not be able to get over this.
He is large and jet black. When he comes at you like that, it leaves a mark on you emotionally.
Will we get over this and be able to trust him?
Even today while telling him "Down" so I could give him a treat, I look at him and wonder if he is going to come at me.
I hope I am clear about how much we have cared for and tried to train this pup. He came to us in a horrible state. He gets fish oil twice a day, eye drops twice a day for dry eye (caused by vitamin A the vet recommended), gets rubbed with bath oil and then sprayed with propolyne glycol every night, and handfed canned food and puppy food mixed to put on weight (he is doing better eating alone now, but sometimes still needs it if he has not taken in enough). He was literal skin and bones when we got him- every rib showing and just rubbed raw skin on his pelvic bones where he sat. Twice a week he is thoroughly saturated in coconut oil which sits on him for 2 hours, then he is bathed and dried while being told what a good boy he is.
He has been given limitations and only gets rewards when performing a task. He has been socialized very well and with great effort and only let off leash to play in a fenced in large grass field in our neighborhood.
If he does not run or hike outside for an hour a day he begins to eat socks, chew undesirables, etc.
We found when we throw the ball every day he does not do that and is able to actually sit down. Otherwise he paces the house and keeps placing toys in front of us to throw in the house for him (it is quite adorable- he puts it down, steps back, then comes back and moves it a bit for you to see better and so on.). He has learned "Done" and stops pestering if we are done playing. He has Kongs with treats around the house placed to keep him busy and happy.
He has a coat for when we went backpacking over the summer and I was afraid he would get a chill, a lifejacket for when we taught him how much he loves swimming, toys for stimulation, gone through multiple dog foods to find what he will eat to be healthy, positive praise....
He has absolutely NO prey drive- does not go after our chickens (they are fenced, but one got out and he could not have cared less), our rabbit, cats seen on walks or even our love bird who gets out of his cage on his own and explores the house on foot.
He follows anyone who is moving around the house and waits for them to come out of bathrooms, etc. He likes to be near us, but also has his own bed (which he is trained to go to and where he goes when given a good soup bone or to just lie down). He mouthed while playing at first and after training he has not done that.
He has always slept on the floor of my daughter's room on a blanket which made her feel safe.
It took us all by such shock.
I cannot eat or sleep, especially after he scared my youngest and am crying while typing this.
I feel sick if I inadvertently caused this and even sicker if he becomes worse if he needs to be rehomed another time.
I had NO idea he was capable of aggression.
In my line of work, I don't give up on anyone. However, my own children must come first.
I am so sorry for this epistle.
I am just utterly crushed.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I wish I could reach through my screen and give you a hug.

We consulted with a behaviourist remotely and she was very affordable. Perhaps you just need one virtual session to help you move forward. Hearing from a professional that your poodle might benefit from a different home environment, or from care that you cannot reasonably or safely provide—physically, emotionally, and/or financially—may free you from the guilt you’re feeling.

You have done _so much_ to physically rehabilitate this boy. That’s a good thing and something you should be at peace with, even if it means adjusting your internal narrative a little and telling yourself this was a foster situation.

Try it on for size: You _fostered_ this boy to physical health. You sacrificed and advocated for his needs.

Tell yourself that tonight as you drift off to sleep: You helped him get better. You _helped_ him. You are a positive part of his journey.

Since he has not bitten anyone (right?) he is still in a good position to be rehabilitated. Just remember, this scary behaviour is his way of communicating his discomfort with certain situations, so try to respect that communication even if you don’t understand it.

That’s something I learned here, from our fabulous Poodle Forum members, that growling is a good thing, even if it feels very, very bad.

When Peggy was a puppy, I think I felt much like you feel now. Like I could never get over my fear of her, my lack of trust. To say I was gutted is an understatement. I had panic attacks for a year and was talked down by this very forum many, many times.

One thing that really helped was when our trainer said: You can keep her or you can return her. Either way, I support your decision and I respect how hard this is. I’m on your team.

_We’re on your team._


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Given that you mentioned he has dry eye, is it possible that his eyes being neglected before you got him has damaged his vision? Could he has trouble seeing in certain lighting, maybe low light? As much as dogs supposedly rely on scent, there are lots of stories of dogs reacting to something visually startling even if it's their owners.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Starvt said:


> Given that you mentioned he has dry eye, is it possible that his eyes being neglected before you got him has damaged his vision? Could he has trouble seeing in certain lighting, maybe low light? As much as dogs supposedly rely on scent, there are lots of stories of dogs reacting to something visually startling even if it's their owners.


Peggy has no eye issues that we’re aware of, but she can absolutely react with fear or confusion when someone is backlit. These reactions are intensified if she’s just woken up or her eyes haven’t had a chance to adjust.

She’s the first dog that’s ever prompted me to google, “Do dogs have poor eyesight?” The answer is a big YES.

_“The dog seems to have a visual acuity of only 20/75. This means that a pattern that a dog can barely recognize at 20 feet is actually large enough for a person with normal vision to identify at a distance of 75 feet. To give you a feeling about how poor this vision is, you should know that if your visual acuity is worse than 20/40 you would fail the standard vision test given when you apply for a driver's license in the United States and would be required to wear glasses. A dog's vision is considerably worse than this.”_









How good is a dog’s visual acuity compared to people?


The average dog might well benefit from glasses




www.psychologytoday.com


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Howdy said:


> To answer a few questions, he had full blood work done on Labor day and on a few days after. The big nerd got into grapes we had in a sack on the counter in the middle of the night (he had never even attempted to get onto the counter before that night). He was acting strangely in the morning and when I pieced it together I rushed him to the emergency vet (of course it was a holiday so much more $$). He had to stay overnight and had full blood work done to ensure he was ok.
> I am a special education teacher and had to donate plasma after school multiple times in order to pay for his stay (Just finished).
> There had also been extensive blood work done in July just before we got him due to his skin condition and a horrible skin lesion infection.
> I fully understand not bothering a dog while resting, but when they are sitting fully awake and a child across the room says to come or they are in a car and a teenager says to come from several feet away, a dog should not react that way. It was not a fear or startle response or even just a warning growl, but a growl and barking while charging.
> ...


I am thinking about this one, it certainly is a strange case since the dog hadn't had any aggressive tendencies. (as you had been told and experienced). It also sounds like normally he is a laid back guy who listens quite well. Obviously there is a reason for this behavior and I am not sure why it is occurring. I'm not big into behaviorists however in this case since you have already put so much into him I would talk to one and see if they have any ideas of why this behavior is happening. It shouldn't be so much like a person going to a therapist but a truly certified behaviorist who knows their stuff may be able to give you some reasonable explanation. You don't have to go to a behaviorist on a regular basis like you do with a trainer. They should be in a position to access the dog after a visit or so. (fixing it may be another story). It is also true that dogs do not see as well in low light but you are saying it also happens when he is called. I'd likely once again approach the original owners and explain what is occurring, perhaps they may have some indication as to why. If all fails I would not rehome him, though this won't be popular I'd likely have him PTS or return him to the shelter and let them determine what is best. You sound to me like a very dog knowledgeable person . I think you will figure this out.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You can probably find a behaviorist who would do a video consult so don't worry about distance. 

I forgot to ask above, but does he have a crate he can comfortably take a time out in or be put in as needed? If not I would get one and train him to be happy and restful there. This will give you another way to keep things in check when you are leaving the house and such.

I hope you can find a way to work on these behavior issues since you have done so much to improve his physical health. I agree with Mufar that I don't see him as a good candidate to rehome. Sometimes euthanasia is really a kindness (e.g. for a dog with chronic pain or neurological injuries). I also agree with Mufar that you sound like the kind of person who can figure this out.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

What does the SPCA have to say? I would assume you signed a contract that requires you to reach out to them if the adoption doesn’t work out. 

They may have a behaviourist on staff who can help advise you on next steps, whether you decide to keep this boy or discuss other options with the shelter.


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

It is not about guarding the furniture. It is about hierarchy. Letting him on the furniture raises his status.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

I am sorry to read that you are having such difficulties, and you've gotten good advice above and will likely continue to get good advice. Of course, only you can decide what will ultimately be right for your family. Poodleforum will be here for you whatever you decide as it's members have been there for owners who have had too make similarly hard decisions in the past. You seem sensible and I'm sure you'll come to the right choice for your family.

If you deem it possible I would try to save up and do an initial consult with a behaviorist via video. They may be able to find a cause and path forward that you cannot. Even confirmation that he's beyond your abilities/bandwidth can be a comfort rather than always wondering "what if?" or whether he's salvageable.

I don't want to downplay your fears, but I do want to say that my Evelyn is as sweet as they come and he sometimes growls at and rushes people outside the yard or even inside who are more than a few feet away until he determines they are a human rather than a scary monster. Since I moved in with my sister and mother he's started growling and barking when he hears their voices and cannot see them well, even now 3month later. He adores both of them and stops once he realizes its them. Even though it's scary I'm happy he growls and barks, because that means when he's uncomfortable or scared his first instinct isn't to bite.


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## Poodle2021 (Mar 14, 2021)

Along with everyone else, I am so sorry you are struggling with this behavior. They have given excellent advice.
I want to merely echo what Lily cd re said - sometimes euthanasia is the most difficult, humane, decision. There are times when a dog’s issues cannot be overcome, at no fault of the dog and despite the best behavioral and vet efforts. If he continues to be a safety threat then it may be the right choice. My friend’s young lab was humanely euthanized after aggressively charging at many strangers out of the blue. The vet diagnosed her with painful lifelong orthopedic problems that was leading to her behavior. My friend had done everything ‘right’ (the dog did performance sports) yet knew her dog would continue to be a potential threat to the public & their young child.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I have to poke my head in again with a personal anecdote:

One trainer “assessed” my puppy over the phone. (I say that with quotation marks as the phone call was maybe 5 minutes.)

Another assessed her using a detailed online questionnaire.

Another assessed her in person.

The conclusion arrived at by the latter two could *not* have been more different from the first. It’s actually kinda scary.


We only know what you’ve told us here. And what you’ve told us here is filtered through your feelings of fear, guilt, and grief. It’s also your subjective interpretation of events, which isn’t always going to be accurate. We don’t “speak dog.” And we’re sometimes too emotionally invested to see the bigger picture. A professional knows this and will be able to dig down past our observations to the root of the issue.

So please do take our well-meaning advice with a grain of salt and seek a professional assessment, ideally through the shelter who entrusted you with this boy.

When Peggy started resource guarding, if I’d taken all the advice I’d gotten on the internet a) I’d have been extremely confused and overwhelmed, as much of it was contradictory or incomplete. And b) I’d probably have made the problem much worse. In fact, our behaviourist specifically mentioned some of the tips I’d been given by multiple well-meaning friends, family, and acquaintances as examples of exactly what _not_ to do. They could have led to a bite or worsening fear or worse, making her job harder and lowering our chances of success.

If you’d like to PM me about our experience with a behaviourist, I’d be happy to chat with you.


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## Howdy (Oct 18, 2021)

Thank you so much everyone. Truly.
Addressing the eyes: he did not have dry eye until we got him and the vet had us put him on Vitamin A along with the Fish oil. It is known that this can cause dry eye and I watched it carefully. When I saw him rubbing them and having some discharge I took him to the vet and I immediately stopped the vitamin (he does not seem to need it for his coat). I began eye drops and as long as I give them morning and night, his eyes are bright again and he is able to track balls no problem, he watches hand gestures for commands, etc. 
His aggressions happened during the day as well- the one was in the middle of a sunny day with the van side door wide open (where he jumped in). 
He most definitely is not a laid back guy- like he is driven by a motor. If he has been exercised, and we take away the toys he wants thrown, he seems to be able to finally relax and can lie down. He likes to lie down wherever we are and does not like to be away from anyone. He can seem dead asleep, buy if someone gets up to walk upstairs, he is up and following them. Not sure if it is out of affection or seeing if they are doing something more exciting. 
I will begin the process to find a good, qualified person for help and pray it does not mean we second mortgage the house for it!
Thank you, all so much!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

The good news is this:



Howdy said:


> He likes to lie down wherever we are and does not like to be away from anyone. He can seem dead asleep, buy if someone gets up to walk upstairs, he is up and following them. Not sure if it is out of affection or seeing if they are doing something more exciting.


Just sounds like a poodle being a poodle.  Peggy literally wants her head in my lap when I’m on the toilet! When denied, she will lay on my feet. If she somehow gets locked out of the bathroom, she will wait near the door.

And the van door scenario sounds like the exact sort of situation where Peggy would struggle to see/appropriately assess threat: She’s in the shade, shadows, or just relative darkness, and someone is backlit by bright light.

Peggy is also a pretty highstrung girl, and does much better with mental exercise than physical. We make sure she gets ample opportunity to stretch her legs and run free, but if she’s wound up, I do a short, fun training session, and that relaxes her better than a walk, run, or fetch ever could. Trick training has been a lifesaver, as has rewarding her regularly throughout the day for something as simple as calmly watching me make dinner. I try hard to reinforce all the good behaviours she offers up, rather than constantly correcting the stuff I don’t love. I also make up all sorts of little jobs for her, which can be as simple as pulling paper out of a cardboard box. She, like so many poodles, _needs purpose._

I hope you’ll continue to poke around the forum and read about the variety of experiences represented here. You might see some relatable stories. 

I also hope you’ll do what’s necessary to keep your kids safe and never, ever feel bad about that.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I second the suggestion for a qualified behaviourist, I wouldn't personally be looking at euthanasia without a bite (or several). I might consider a child free home though. I am not there so your judgement is far better than mine! 

It was for a far more minor issue, but I worked with a very reputable, very experienced trainer and was amazed how a single session helped me understand my dog and how to work with her. You might be surprised at how few sessions it takes. 

I also agree with limiting fetch as it can wind dogs up like a spring, and making sure you have dog appropriate places he can retreat to that are child free (like a crate) that he is rewarded for going to. 

My own poodle, who also was wound like a spring some days for a while, benefited greatly from working on this: 



http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Relax_on_a_mat.pdf



Another thing I found helpful with 'grumbly' dogs on couches is to teach jumping off the couch as a heavily rewarded trick, taught through luring and positive reinforcement, not any sort of collar grab or tugging. So no people and dog on couch at the same time (or children and dog if that's where the issue is) but if the people want on the couch, that the dog is currently occupying, they can ask for what they want (off) and dog is happy to comply. No hands or feet vulnerable near the dog, either!


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Your vet may be able to direct you to a qualified behaviorist. Mine did. It was $90 for an hour session. In my case he stayed an hour and a half (no extra charge) because (IMO) he liked working with Elroy.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Howdy said:


> To answer a few questions, he had full blood work done on Labor day and on a few days after. The big nerd got into grapes we had in a sack on the counter in the middle of the night (he had never even attempted to get onto the counter before that night). He was acting strangely in the morning and when I pieced it together I rushed him to the emergency vet (of course it was a holiday so much more $$). He had to stay overnight and had full blood work done to ensure he was ok.
> I am a special education teacher and had to donate plasma after school multiple times in order to pay for his stay (Just finished).
> There had also been extensive blood work done in July just before we got him due to his skin condition and a horrible skin lesion infection.
> I fully understand not bothering a dog while resting, but when they are sitting fully awake and a child across the room says to come or they are in a car and a teenager says to come from several feet away, a dog should not react that way. It was not a fear or startle response or even just a warning growl, but a growl and barking while charging.
> ...


I was wondering about the costs too. I have no children and a well paid job, and still find behaviorists cost prohibitive. In Los Angeles, an initial consult is minimum $350 and every session after that is minimum $199. For a issue such as aggression or reactivity, I would imagine that there would be many sessions over an extended period of time. I think everyone should consider this when offering it as a solution. It's so so expensive.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Phaz23 said:


> I was wondering about the costs too. I have no children and a well paid job, and still find behaviorists cost prohibitive. In Los Angeles, an initial consult is minimum $350 and every session after that is minimum $199. For a issue such as aggression or reactivity, I would imagine that there would be many sessions over an extended period of time. I think everyone should consider this when offering it as a solution. It's so so expensive.


I hear you, but unfortunately there aren’t many other solutions we can ethically offer....especially when aggression and children are involved. 

One good thing to come out of covid is that a number of dog professionals started offering their services from a distance. I didn’t let geography limit my own behaviourist search. Ours consulted remotely using a combination of emails, phone calls, and video chats. And she was nowhere near the price range you’re seeing in Los Angeles.

She has a PhD in animal behaviour and works directly with shelters. Our KPA-certified trainer also has a background in shelter work.

So when I encouraged the OP to involve the SPCA, who (if I’m understanding correctly) facilitated the adoption, it’s with the hope they may be able to recommend some resources, or even offer help at a lower price point.


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## Poosmarescats (Oct 9, 2021)

Howdy said:


> Hi!
> Please bear with me here.
> We rescued a perfect little poodle 12 years ago, making her 13 now. She has been raised with my children and has been an integral part of our family.
> She is trained, gentle and we have worked hard with her.
> ...


My late Mom's then my, late SPoo growled at me ONCE - telling me it was HIS couch and to stay off. I growled back and bit him, AND pulled him off the sofa. May sound stupid or mean but it did the trick. NEVER growled at me again. OH and I DID love him more than anything except my cats!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Poosmarescats said:


> My late Mom's then my, late SPoo growled at me ONCE - telling me it was HIS couch and to stay off. I growled back and bit him, AND pulled him off the sofa. May sound stupid or mean but it did the trick. NEVER growled at me again. OH and I DID love him more than anything except my cats!


I think you are very lucky you didn't get hurt and/or create a more deeply problematic situation with that response. 

For those posts regarding costs of behaviorists, most of the time you need a consult and then a session or two with a behaviorist to develop a training plan executed by the owner or the owner with a local trainer. Even simple training work often only requires a couple of sessions with a professional.

As to this dog and his tendency towards aggressive displays if the OP can get things into a management plan where the people (especially te children) are not livig in fear of the dog then that is all for the good, but if they can't and aggressive behavior continues or deepens to delivering bites then this is not a dog that should be rehomed. I have a friend who runs a large local breed rescue and she would never ever put an aggressive dog into a home. Aggressive behavior is very much not a tolerated part of the breed standard. She would not take such a dog into foster and rescue if aggression was known to be present. If a dog was returned to her organization for biting, the dog would be euthanized. Euthanasia is not a first step but sometimes is a needed step.


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## Poosmarescats (Oct 9, 2021)

lily cd re said:


> I think you are very lucky you didn't get hurt and/or create a more deeply problematic situation with that response.
> 
> For those posts regarding costs of behaviorists, most of the time you need a consult and then a session or two with a behaviorist to develop a training plan executed by the owner or the owner with a local trainer. Even simple training work often only requires a couple of sessions with a professional.
> 
> As to this dog and his tendency towards aggressive displays if the OP can get things into a management plan where the people (especially te children) are not livig in fear of the dog then that is all for the good, but if they can't and aggressive behavior continues or deepens to delivering bites then this is not a dog that should be rehomed. I have a friend who runs a large local breed rescue and she would never ever put an aggressive dog into a home. Aggressive behavior is very much not a tolerated part of the breed standard. She would not take such a dog into foster and rescue if aggression was known to be present. If a dog was returned to her organization for biting, the dog would be euthanized. Euthanasia is not a first step but sometimes is a needed step.


Would Cesar milan be any help? I did what I did as it was the first thing that popped in my mine. I DO WISH I never had. Mom gave him the sofa and made ME sit on the floor and I just sort of had it. I am sorry and wish he was here to tell him. He was a wonderful SPoo! I miss him so much!


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

Poosmarescats said:


> Would Cesar milan be any help? I did what I did as it was the first thing that popped in my mine. I DO WISH I never had. Mom gave him the sofa and made ME sit on the floor and I just sort of had it. I am sorry and wish he was here to tell him. He was a wonderful SPoo! I miss him so much!
> View attachment 482951


Cesar Milan is not generally considered to be a responsible safe trainer. Many of his tactics are great television, but can be dangerous in practice. They are not borne out by research. Dogs are wonderfully adaptable and many can overcome mishandling to figure out the behavior you actually want. I would take most tv trainers with a heap of skepticism and do my own research on modern tactics and research findings.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

NO NO NO do not use Cesar Milan (or any other TV trainer) techniques. All of those shows do have disclaimers so the experts don't get sued. Another well know TV trainer worked at a local facility with a dangerous dog to prep an episode. I wasn't there but people I know who were and watched said there was a lot of tape on the editing room floor since the expert was bitten several times before getting things in order. Your dog could have severely injured your face and eyes.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

lily cd re said:


> NO NO NO do not use Cesar Milan (or any other TV trainer) techniques. All of those shows do have disclaimers so the experts don't get sued. Another well know TV trainer worked at a local facility with a dangerous dog to prep an episode. I wasn't there but people I know who were and watched said there was a lot of tape on the editing room floor since the expert was bitten several times before getting things in order. Your dog could have severely injured your face and eyes.


Wow - poor dog!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Minie I don't know why you feel sorry for the dog. It had a history filled with biting and other aggression. The trainer is known as a positive reinforcement trainer. The whole thing struck me as a hot mess at the time. The worst issues of TV and internet trainers is that they can edit like wild and make things look super easy when they are anything but and when those apparent miracle methods are applied by people who don't really know all the ins and outs of the methods people can't get hurt and dogs can be condemned to euthanasia when that wasn't really the only strategy to use.


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## Deere (Jun 25, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I have to poke my head in again with a personal anecdote:
> 
> One trainer “assessed” my puppy over the phone. (I say that with quotation marks as the phone call was maybe 5 minutes.)
> 
> ...


I agree with the recommendation for a behaviorist and no hugging. Hugging is a human trait that some dogs tolerate and shouldn't be practiced. I was bitten on the face but No skin was broken when I placed my arm across the back/shoulder of a male working Australian Shepherd that I knew since he was a puppy. That was considered a dominant reaction on my part and his part; dogs test dominance with a forearm over the other dog's back/shoulder and some dogs tolerate it and most don't. I understand the fear that you are experiencing; I had a Cairn rescue from a puppy mill that exhibited the growling/lunging after I had him(he was worse in the crate) it is very hard just to stand there and not back away but you did it. I too felt afraid for quite awhile. I also think he is testing you(the honeymoon phase is over) and you can work through this. I would not leave him unsupervised with the children also try not to act afraid in front of them. We didn't have children but my niece did/does and I understood that if there was just one pinch/bite then euthanasia. Your children come first and you must try not to act afraid. I did see/use a behaviorist and she was able to help/fix us(the way we were interacting with him)and my Cairn! I also did not allow him on the furniture and everyone was aware of how to interact with him; pet, play(no one sitting on the floor/ground with him)and giving treats. I also believe in the" nothing in life is free" concept.You have done a wonderful job with him and you are giving him a wonderful life whatever you choose for him will be the right choice for your family.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

lily cd re said:


> Minie I don't know why you feel sorry for the dog. It had a history filled with biting and other aggression. The trainer is known as a positive reinforcement trainer. The whole thing struck me as a hot mess at the time. The worst issues of TV and internet trainers is that they can edit like wild and make things look super easy when they are anything but and when those apparent miracle methods are applied by people who don't really know all the ins and outs of the methods people can't get hurt and dogs can be condemned to euthanasia when that wasn't really the only strategy to use.


The reason why I feel for the dog is that the aggression and biting is an expression of deep underlying issues. I think that trying behavioual issues are less stressful without a camera crew following along. That the result is the expert being bitten several times is awful. For both. That I believe is negative reinforcement. 
I do agree, that tv trainers have the option of editing and making it seem easy. Training behavioural issues is hard work and requires patience, a calm environment and positive good techniques. This is seldom in a tv setup. Therefore - poor dog.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Minie thank you for clarifying your thinking. I think we really agree on the core principles.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

lily cd re said:


> Minie thank you for clarifying your thinking. I think we really agree on the core principles.


We absolutely agree. I am glad you asked why my response was as short as it was so that I could elaborate on my answer.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I hear you, but unfortunately there aren’t many other solutions we can ethically offer....especially when aggression and children are involved.
> 
> One good thing to come out of covid is that a number of dog professionals started offering their services from a distance. I didn’t let geography limit my own behaviourist search. Ours consulted remotely using a combination of emails, phone calls, and video chats. And she was nowhere near the price range you’re seeing in Los Angeles.
> 
> ...


That’s good to hear. Yeah at LA prices I minus well get my dog a human psychiatrist to save a little money 🥲


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Watching this thread from the sidelines, I have a few thoughts:
1) I haven't yet read anything indicating that euthanasia is needed at this point, but this dog might benefit from a child free home with dog savvy and kindly owners.
2) It will be much harder, and ethically problematic, to rehome the dog after the first bite.
3) It seems many of the incidents - resource guarding the couch, barking at people - are rooted in fear and insecurity. Using any sort of alpha, dominance, or punishment based approach is likely to backfire and possibly provoke a bite. Dominance techniques suggested by Cesar Milan, some of the older Monks of New Skete books, and various other popular trainers should be avoided. The alpha dog stuff simply turns up the heat on an already nervous dog without removing the triggers and anxiety that are driving the dog.
4) Temperament issues often have their roots in medical issues. This dog certainly seems like a candidate for this explanation. The skin issues and dry eye probably aren't comfortable. The dog may have vision issues, leading to startle reflexes. The dog may simply have bad wiring due to bad breeding. It might be worth talking to the vet about anti-anxiety medications and/or pain killers. 

Finally, all of us have different levels of risk tolerance and financial resources. Some of us have paid off the mortgage and launched our kids into their careers; unexpectedly dropping $5k on vet bills is a minor hardship. Perhaps we postpone a vacation as a result. For others of us that $5k might be the difference between whether we can replace the furnace or fix the car we need to get to work. There should be no guilt in saying, "I can't do this," when, in fact, you really can't do it.


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## Pat Mc (Sep 27, 2020)

I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I just wanted to chime in with another source to check in your search for a certified behavior consultant -- the IAABC (International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants) IAABC.ORG. Don't worry if there isn't anyone in your area. Many people are offering virtual sessions, which can be every bit as effective as in-person sessions, and sometimes better.

Wishing you the best. 💖


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

Having fostered several rescues, if this dog is truly aggressive and the possibility of a real bite is an issue, the dog is not adoptable. It is a lawsuit waiting to happen. People who turn in a dog for biting never are honest about it, which is why we sometimes get them. I had two rescues and one dog I was hired to train with owner possession, which is considered a type of resource guarding. The breeds are well known to be gentle and good with children. Not adoptable. A dog that bites will be put down.


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## Sylvia K (Feb 4, 2021)

Howdy said:


> Hi!
> Please bear with me here.
> We rescued a perfect little poodle 12 years ago, making her 13 now. She has been raised with my children and has been an integral part of our family.
> She is trained, gentle and we have worked hard with her.
> ...


I can't help wondering if the dog is in pain. Dogs are notorious (along with other animals) for not showing overt signs of pain as this could make them vulnerable to attack from pack members. I mention this as I have a condition that sometimes causes painful ulcers to erupt and these are preceded for several months by quite severe pain underneath the skin. There is no indication on the skin surface that anything is happening underneath! Reading about this dog's former skin condition made me think of this and wonder. I have never experienced this type of issue with any of my dogs so can't really offer anything except this random thought. I do wish you all the very best in your search for resolution and commend you on your dedication to doing your very best for this dog.


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## TuttoBene (Apr 23, 2021)

Michigan Gal said:


> Don't let him on the furniture anymore. Turn the cushions up if you have to or even put up a gate to keep him out. Never let him on a bed. I know it seems too simple, but it often works. It would be frustrating to go through lists of tests and behavior training if keeping him off the furniture will fix the problem.


You can add a house line to his collar: a short leash without a loop so that you can lead him off the sofa, out of the car etc without grabbing his collar. We have had our grey hounds go through a growly period. And yes, they lost furniture and bed privileges until theyearn
I also agree he needs another vet work up. 
Also think of growling as a disagreement and a argumant from you dog.. You should win the argument without escalating. Sometimes a firm NO and a SIT is enough. Please remeber to treat intermittently when he is being good and complying.


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## ignatz713 (Sep 2, 2011)

Howdy, you've come to the right place. Best of luck going forward.

Buddy (skin issue healed, thanks) problem, serious. Age is 2, health is good. He had been friendly on a walk, both towards people and dogs, pulling and whining to approach them. March of 2021 - he was attacked by a German Shepherd whom the owner said was 'friendly'. Mistake, obviously. Note - we were standing on the street in front of GS's home. GS immediately attacked Buddy, I could not separate them, eventually the owner, doing nothing while I screamed at her, pulled her dog away. Miraculously, Buddy was not physically hurt. When I asked why she let her dog approach, she said he was 'usually friendly'.

However, from that day forward, he has aggression from fright. April of 2021 - I developed a serious illness and can not address Buddy until November. I found a local CBCC-KA (certified behavior consultant canine-knowledge assessed) at ccpdt.org, thank you. I also was directed to a local trainer.

He barks out the window at passing dogs and on a walk, if he sees a dog (not a person) in the distance, will lunge and bark until they pass. He gets into a zone, and no treat can get his attention. I cannot train him now and am not sure I ever will be able. He was too much dog for us, and apparently no attention was given by the breeder to this fact.

My question: to start, am I better with a behaviorist or a trainer? Thank you.

Note: he has been friends with a local dog since he was young, and even now whines to greet him and they hug.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Ignatz713 at this point you need the behaviorist to develop training strategies to address Buddy's issues that you can then work on wiht a trainer and/or on your own. One thing you should do now rather than allowing continued rehearsals of the unwanted behavior of barking at passersby is hand even just a sheet to block his view out the window. This will keep that behavior from becoming more strongly neurologically set and should start it on an extinction pathway.

I am really sorry to hear that your neighbor is so stupid about her GSD as she is. We just lost our GSD in March, but truly he and Lily were always the best of friends and Peeves was a really reliable dog who often visited my partner''s mom at her nursing home. He was well loved by almost everyone in the facility. GSD can be marvelous dogs but they need a person with a firm and consistent hand, not someone who will stand by while their dog does damage to another dog and then says well he is usually friendly. Seriously?

Be careful about the idea of dogs giving "hugs." Close physical interactions like that can turn on a dime. Also if this is an on leash encounter it can become dangerous just from people getting tangled up by the leashes.


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## ignatz713 (Sep 2, 2011)

lily, thank you. 

I have come to doing just that, even though he loves to spend time looking out the window. I now put the blind down and even though he reacts to the sound (smell?) of a dog, he doesn't bark.

On his friend, I believe you are correct. I was surprised to see how he differentiated between a 'friend' and a 'stranger', but as you say, he can turn at any time.

From reading the strategy of both, you make sense on the behaviorist vs a trainer.


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## Littleflower (Aug 8, 2021)

I greatly sympathize with you. I agree that you need to find somebody to show you how to do some kind of therapeutic training to help him. I understand that you dont have the extra funds to put into that but I also fear what funds you do have will likely go towards a hospital stay if he injures someone. I do feel the growling and lunging is a byproduct of his past. He likely was never given his space and now he is feeling healthy and strong and is testing his limits. Dogs can smell fear in a person and he probably feels he is the boss and will only get more "bossy" unless he is "put in his place". I would strongly recommend searching for an experienced pet therapist who specializes in rescued dogs...one who does not do it for the money but for the dog and dog owner's well being.


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