# So why do people cheat in the show ring?



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Why do people photoshop their dogs on their sites as well? I think it's all for the money and bragging rights really. =/


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

they cheat, to win. That's why anyone cheats in anything, be it a game of cards or a dog show, you're only goal to cheating is to better your chances at winning. Generally, people only want to win, cos what IS the point of even entering your dog if you don't have any goal to win something? Entering costs money, so ya wanna win as many as you can as soon as you can, cos then you can get a fancy title and say your dog is better... 

I mean, why else? *sigh*


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

I think alot of people are pressured into it too, and some, especially if they are new, don't even know that it is cheating. I mean, hairspray, TECHNICALLY isnt allowed, but everyone does it, so its become accepted. I think its more on the judges, If they dont start picking out dogs in HCC's or with no hairspray then people will continue to use huge hair and hairspray. 

even with something as asimple as cording the dogs, or showing without rosettes, or showing in the english saddle (at least in standards) has hampered a dog's chances of winning.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

“I would prefer even to fail with honor than to win by cheating” 

To me there is a rationalization in some that cause them to cheat. For me, I cannot wrap my head around cheating in the lines you mention because for _*me only *_- it says my dog is below standard. But after some thinking - some of that would be cosmetic sort of, right? So if it's a light and not a lot, maybe it's not that horrible........No matter what, I love my dogs and I hang my head proud regardless of their flaws. (although mine could not compete he's flawed with his cute white patch on his chest and his liver colored nose.)

There are reasons there are rules, policies, contracts, and to compete and not do it without integrity doesn't say much about the person cheating UNLESS - as someone else mentioned they honestly did not know. 

I am curious what kind of money is involved in the showing? Or is a more competitive thing?


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

flyingduster said:


> they cheat, to win. That's why anyone cheats in anything, be it a game of cards or a dog show, you're only goal to cheating is to better your chances at winning. Generally, people only want to win, cos what IS the point of even entering your dog if you don't have any goal to win something? Entering costs money, so ya wanna win as many as you can as soon as you can, cos then you can get a fancy title and say your dog is better...
> 
> I mean, why else? *sigh*


Ditto!!!!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

So even if it's just this cosmetic flaw (needing a dog darker or whiter) why bother? Why not get out there and show your dog's true conformation and be done with it? If you need or want a darker dog breed better! But how do you breed up if people are cheating?

I agree, a lot of this falls on the judge's shoulders and if they continue to put up dogs that are full on dyed, wigged, and hairsprayed to the 9's, then that's what people are going to do to win. Winning cannot be that important. It's not a game is it? I thought it was to display and get "confirmation" on the "conformation?"


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

*It's a business!*

Why do people get their teeth fixed, boob jobs, liposuction, hair color etc? Not only in beauty pageants but also in life? If you want to live your life by narrow definitions, all this is really *cheating* in life isn't it? People do it to get better jobs, better mates, better friends. Here is a very interesting article.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/20/weekinreview/dog-shows-none-dare-call-them-tranquil.html

Most practices are OK in the ring as long as they aren't blatant and overdone. If you really want to be black and white about it, the poodle itself is an artificial breed. The poodle is GROOMED to hide flaws. Long back? Tighten the rear, move the tuck up (in a puppy) and shape the chest. No Chest? Grow hair and round it out amply. No neck? shape the jacket to give the illusion. You might say "oh well the judge feels the dog and knows what is under there". Yes, they do. But do they *remember* that dog in particular when they take their final step back and look up and down the row? Most likely, they will see the most beautiful presentation and that will truly shape their decision. They may forget all about your dog with the perfect head when the *illusion* created by a skilled handler makes their dog's less than perfect head appear flawless as they take their final walk down the line. But why stop there? Handlers have their own techniques that you may call *cheating*. Just positioning their dog slightly to the front, upstaging the other dogs can influence a judge. It is all a competition, just like everything else. Nothing in life is fair and you have to learn how to play or you won't be happy. Don't like it? Well, maybe dog showing isn't for you! Those handlers earn their livings showing dogs. You think they are going to attract business and new clients if they don't compete to win? Go play in the UKC if you don't like the way its done in AKC. Even there, you will see *cheating* if you look for it. I for one would have no fun at all showing my dog in a ring of shaved down poodles. I mean, why not just shave them all down to evaluate them that way if all that hair is just artificially creating an illusion, right?

There are secrets to every breed shown as to what to do to *artifically* accentuate their dog. It is a competition after all. Window dressing is important. Just like when you make your purchasing decisions every day for every day products. Is making that box of cereal more attractive *cheating* when the contents are just the same as the other brand? It's called marketing. Putting your best paw forward helps you win. 

It costs time and money to finish a dog in AKC. Entry fees are around $50 a weekend. You have travel and hotel and food. Not to mention ALL That equipment. Plus, in some breeds you need a professional to finish your dog. Majors may not be local and you have to travel a long distance to get to them. Handlers go from anywhere from $100 (ringside pickup) to $500 or more a weekend if you have to float their expenses. Then there is boarding while your dog is in their care. Those dogs you see in Eukaneuba and Westminster? Tens of thousands of dollars behind those dogs. They travel all over the country and the world competing and getting rankings. Also there is advertising costs, designed specifically to draw attention to their dog so the judges know them before they even see them. Some even have their own busses or jets. To everyone except the owner handler who does dog showing for fun: this is a business. There are a lot of wealthy people behind a lot of the dogs shown by handlers. Not all to be sure, but they are out there. They want results. For the rest of us to compete, we have to step up our game.


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

Olie said:


> “I would prefer even to fail with honor than to win by cheating”
> 
> To me there is a rationalization in some that cause them to cheat. For me, I cannot wrap my head around cheating in the lines you mention because for _*me only *_- it says my dog is below standard. But after some thinking - some of that would be cosmetic sort of, right? So if it's a light and not a lot, maybe it's not that horrible........No matter what, I love my dogs and I hang my head proud regardless of their flaws. (although mine could not compete he's flawed with his cute white patch on his chest and his liver colored nose.)
> 
> ...



there is NO money to be won most of the times, occasionally there is a sweepstakes where you win a percentage of the entry fees. 
I went to Borzoi nationals last year, there were TONS of dogs, and in the puppy sweepstakes there were about 20 or so pups entered, the winner of sweeps got something like 63 dollars LOL 

now with poodles there may be a little more in it than that, as they are a more popular breed. 

sometimes there are sponsorship type things, where dog foods and products will give you free stuff, but no, you dont make money showing dogs unless you are a handler or something.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

The only money involved is money going OUT. Like owning a swimming pool or a boat. Just dig a pit and throw your money in it. Handlers make their livings showing dogs. It is a hard, dirty grueling job. Breeders finish dogs to not only sell puppies at higher prices, but also to get validation on their breedings. There are many many professional breeders who breed for the LOVE of the breed. But it isn't charity and they don't get federal funding.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I've unfortunately found many BYB that hang on the coattails of someone's hard work and money by asking the same price for their puppies as the person that owns the dogs with champions in front of their name.


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## katsdogworld (Jan 24, 2009)

I agree with the "if you can't beat em join em" sentiments, poodlepal, but I do wonder why there are rules if they are consistently broken. What's the point of printing the rules if they are not enforced?


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Lordy, don't I know it! I just saw a litter of the most squirrely looking particolor minis ever I have seen for sale for as much as the progeny of finished Champions. Of course she was advertising that the great, great grandsire was a Champion so they were super great puppies from champion bloodlines! No other Champions in the line....no health testing....no history of health testing on anyone except for the great great grandsire. ugh. I give her the benefit of the doubt, she just doesn't know any better. Sweet, sweet lady. but oh so hard to keep my mouth shut.


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## dbrazzil (Nov 10, 2009)

I started showing for fun, but I have been told on this board and by some friends that it took them 2-3 years before they started doing well in the show ring. Why is that? If you have a nice dog, and you are perfecting your grooming and handeling skills and atttending 1-2 shows a month, should it still take this long? I know some of it is political, but really...I have met several new people out there and I don't want to discourage them or myself. What is a realistic goal?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, there is no point if the judges won't enforce them. It would be nice to find someone that just follows the rules that wins based on her/his dog's merits and not the grooming or politics.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

dbrazzil said:


> I started showing for fun, but I have been told on this board and by some friends that it took them 2-3 years before they started doing well in the show ring. Why is that? If you have a nice dog, and you are perfecting your grooming and handeling skills and atttending 1-2 shows a month, should it still take this long? I know some of it is political, but really...I have met several new people out there and I don't want to discourage them or myself. What is a realistic goal?


I'm guessing they are saying that because it takes that long for you to fit in and follow along with what everyone else is doing. I guess there are tricks and tips that show off the dog better and it takes time to learn those things. I guess face recognition is another factor too. I personally don't know.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Katsdog: Let me give you just one metaphor to consider: They still print that it is illegal to go over the speed limit, yet I do it everyday and so do many other people. In fact, if you drive 5 miles over or less you won't even get a ticket in most cases. But they don't print that anywhere.
Your picture of your silver is wonderful. I take it a young dog? Beautiful.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> Katsdog: Let me give you just one metaphor to consider: They still print that it is illegal to go over the speed limit, yet I do it everyday and so do many other people. In fact, if you drive 5 miles over or less you won't even get a ticket in most cases. But they don't print that anywhere.
> Your picture of your silver is wonderful. I take it a young dog? Beautiful.


Do people cheat in other competitions like the Olympics and sports (I know some do but they get caught and then there are reprecussions to those things)? Do people cheat in obedience or agility?


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

kpoos...well those are *sports* and although people may take issue with this, showing isn't as much as a sport as it is a beauty pageant. And they do cheat there with their fake breasts, taping of butt cheeks, whitened teeth, dental work...why the list goes on and on! 

But really, yes....they do cheat in sports as well. May not get caught, but they might! How about gymnasts who look like their 12 but the coach says they are *of age*. or the doping? Or the swim suits that are designed to be faster? Shaving all body hair? Starving yourself before a weigh in to get in a lower weight bracket to give you and edge when your real weight is more and you will be at your real weight come the competition day (weightlifters) Pushing the limits of the competitive edge are what it is all about.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Poodlepal you sure are passionate about the justification in cheating.......what drives you? Serious question I am not being ugly.

I am with kpoos in the long run - maybe things do need to be black and white to be more fair for those up and comers. Some of us are just do gooders by nature. Honestly your driving metaphor - I AM GUILTY!


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

I would like NOTHING more than to be able to trot out there with my dogs unsprayed and poorly (in comparison) groomed. It sure would be a lot easier to finish a dog and I wouldn't have to stress myself out trying to outdo the competition, who can run circles around me! I can't compete with some of those masters. But it is the way it is done. I have been around long enough to have a true respect for what those people do out there, their experience, their drive, their skill and motivations. It is easy to sit back and judge them all on what they should or shouldn't do, but until you have actually lived it, you really have no idea.

There are some things in life you either learn to accept or you can go on being unhappy and bitter about it. Not just in dog shows, but in everything all around us everyday. I prefer not to be unhappy or bitter. Time, age and experience has taught me that we can't live in a Utopian nirvana. If the ovens too hot, get out of the kitchen! But if your gonna stay in the kitchen, get out of the way because I am there to cook.


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

I thought dog shows were to judge breeding stock? I understand there is showmanship and good grooming in competiton but I talked to a very nice lady who was going to have her dogs tail straightened so he could win. So when you pay big bucks to breed to that beautiful dog that you saw in the show ring are you really getting what you pay for? I know pedigree counts and you should know whats behind the dog you are considering but if it really is to judge breeding stock and not just a beauty pagent shouldn't some of the rules be hard and fast? Just curious not trying to offend anyone.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

gingersnap said:


> I thought dog shows were to judge breeding stock? I understand there is showmanship and good grooming in competiton but I talked to a very nice lady who was going to have her dogs tail straightened so he could win. So when you pay big bucks to breed to that beautiful dog that you saw in the show ring are you really getting what you pay for? I know pedigree counts and you should know whats behind the dog you are considering but if it really is to judge breeding stock and not just a beauty pagent shouldn't some of the rules be hard and fast? Just curious not trying to offend anyone.


The Breed Ring is supposed to be about evaluating breed stock, but it also has morphed into the dog equivalent of a beauty pageant (like Halter in horses). Handlers and owners want to augment the look of their dogs so they are presented at their very best.

This started out as hair-spray and chalk to give the dogs a more put together look and has moved to painted noses, full dye jobs and wigs wigs wigs!

Problems as you noted. When you dye a bad Black or paint a snow nose, you simply pass those problems on to the next generation. When pro-handlers started to wig the big specials (it is hard to keep the length and thickness of coat when you are spraying it up every weekend for a year), it put pressure on the class dogs to use wigs to have bigger hair. Now, folks are even wigging puppies. I saw a pro-handler wig a Mini puppy!!!! :doh:

I really hate wigging because it puts anyone new to the sport at a huge disadvantage. Most handlers have wigs because they saved them from a previously cut down show dog. Where would a newbie get wigs? Also it just perpetuates the myth of the big hair. Long-time poodle people will tell newbies to the sport that big hair is possible through correct coat maintenance. This may be true, but very, very few folks are actually correctly growing their coats.

There has been a back lash though. Poodle people have gotten so cavalier about it that they don't even try to hide it any more. It is just a given in the breed. Well at a recent show, a Standard went BIS. One of the other competitors in group complained that the dog had wigs in. The handler was taken back to grooming and asked to break down her dog in front of a rep. :fish: I'm not sure what the consequence will be. Fines? Suspension? I do know that since then, I have heard that judges have really been digging into topknots looking for wigs. I don't think that is the answer because it ruins the look of the dog in the ring. I think all WDs, WB and BOV should be followed back to set up at the end of their showing and that a rep should watch break down. This would end the practice of wigging very quickly! If wigging disappeared, we might see a push to show Poodles in a modified kennel trim. I have heard even successful handlers advocate that class dogs be shown in kennel trim and specials be shown in full coat.

Finally, I would like to note that it is not just Poodles who are augmented for the show ring. Beagles are dyed. Goldens almost all have their noses painted. Aussies are chalked within an inch of their lives. Terriers routinely have their tails "fixed" to keep them from being gay (you can get a back alley tail job at most big dog shows).


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## dbrazzil (Nov 10, 2009)

cbrand said:


> The Breed Ring is supposed to be about evaluating breed stock, but it also has morphed into the dog equivalent of a beauty pageant (like Halter in horses). Handlers and owners want to augment the look of their dogs so they are presented at their very best.
> 
> This started out as hair-spray and chalk to give the dogs a more put together look and has moved to painted noses, full dye jobs and wigs wigs wigs!
> 
> ...


I have encountered this same problem showing against the more experienced handlers. When I have had some down time at the shows, I have walked around and watched the grooming. Most of the people that use the fake hair are not hiding what they do. I think this gives an unfair advantage to newcomers. :confusffed: What to do?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

dbrazzil said:


> I have encountered this same problem showing against the more experienced handlers. When I have had some down time at the shows, I have walked around and watched the grooming. Most of the people that use the fake hair are not hiding what they do. I think this gives an unfair advantage to newcomers. :confusffed: What to do?


Well, maybe you can buy wigs and then ask or pay a nice pro-handler to show you how.

Or.....

You can meticulously grow a real coat. It can be done. Sabrina was shown and finished un-dyed and in her own hair.


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

This is sure good reading! I just joined yesterday so am not comfortable to comment but do feel for everyone on this subject.

Olie did ask what kind of money is involved in showing. AKC, of course...
a minimum of $1000 a month to put a standard poodle out with a handler. When I say 'minimum' that's a deal.


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## dbrazzil (Nov 10, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Well, maybe you can buy wigs and then ask or pay a nice pro-handler to show you how.
> 
> Or.....
> 
> You can meticulously grow a real coat. It can be done. Sabrina was shown and finished un-dyed and in her own hair.


Did you show her yourself or use a handler? How long did it take to finish her and how many shows did you go to a month?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Well shows are ultimately to help better the breed right? So if someone entered their poodle in a poodle show, isn't it also to find more good dogs to continue the breed? I know I couldn't worded that better.. What I mean is, as far as money is concerned, wouldn't those people want to 'sell' the genetics of their dog? (Studding and whatnot)

That's the money I'd be thinking about, not so much as the entering fee. Seems kinda sad.. considering the poodle you may be looking at isn't at all what you're seeing.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

One of the worst "cheats" I've heard of is surgery to "fix" something off in the dog they are showing or bite correction. That stuff is impossible to prove but if that dog is bred it just perpetuates that wrong trait in future genertation.

Someone recently told me that they heard about someone taking their show dog in to get it's eyelids done so that either they would be tighter or the right color, something along those lines. Either way that is CHEATING and it doesn't improve the breed to do things like that.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

dbrazzil said:


> Did you show her yourself or use a handler? How long did it take to finish her and how many shows did you go to a month?


Sabrina has an interesting show history. 

I showed her a few times myself but I always had help from Laurel Berg getting her sprayed up and scissored. I put 2 points on her. I think I realized that I did not have the skills for this dog sport was when a judge said to me in the ring (and I swear this is true) "When you show your bitch like crap I can't evaluate her.":weep: Still, she gave us the point. Lucky for me, Sabrina is a nice, typey bitch.

Then I cut Sabrina into an HCC. Laurel showed her this way and got two points on her, but she said that Sabrina really needed to be in full coat to be competitive. Since I was looking to save money, I agreed.

Then the coat fiasco! I took Sabrina camping in full show coat and we spent 4 days playing in the lake. When I got home, I had a matted mess. There was no saving the coat. Laurel ended up shaving her down with a #7 blade. The thing came off like a pelt. Laurel actually hung the pelt on her grooming room wall as a cautionary tale to other owners. 

So, I started over.... By being careful, I was able to grow a new show coat in just under a year. I kept taking her back to Laurel and Laurel would say. "Nope. Not ready." Then one day, Laurel said, "Yep." 

When Sabrina finally went out with Laurel, she finished in 4 weekends with back to back majors. 

Sabrina finished quickly because she was a high quality, mature bitch in full show coat. She was ready to win. I think too many people waste their time and money dragging around a Poodle who is not yet competitive. If you are just doing it for fun, OK what do you have to lose but your time and your entry fees. 

If you are using a pro,however, you will just be burning money if you have a dog that is not ready to win. Handling fees run about $500+ a weekend if you take into account: board, food, mileage and grooming costs.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Now since Enzo is over 12 months handlers and other breeder told us expect up to 6months to a year to grow coat. 

We will take him to shows here and there for practice but not expecting to win. 

We will never use wiggies either since its not like there are a lot of red breeder showing, I would not be able to find one if I wanted to lol

cbrand I am glad that dog was inspected after the show, I wonder if other judges even bother looking in CA ? I know a few people that said they are trying to become a poodle judge. Some commented and said that they are supposed to over look the hair spray and not even bother fiddling inside the topknot.

Is this true ?


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

I will agree, surgery to fix something that is a genetic issue is ridiculous! There are so many nice dogs out there, pouring that kind of money into deception is outrageous. Get another dog already!

Wigs....you can win without em. You can certainly get WB or WD without them. But for a Special...they are necessary. Showing week after week after week breaks the hair. Sometimes you can find wigs if you ask around, people guard them but sometimes sell them. Usually your use of a wig is not to make the hair longer at all. They are used as *filling*. You want your wigs to not be longer than your actual hair. Take heart though, many a dog has finished without wigs. It can be done!


In my experience *most* of the dogs I see in the ring are all certainly within breed standard and excellent examples of the breed. So when everyone has wonderful dogs, people work hard to make theirs more wonderful! I have seen, however, my fair share of what I consider to be faulted dogs put up, depending on the judge. Often the judges aren't specific poodle people. Sometimes they are, but more than likely they are *qualified* to judge the nonsporting group as a whole, but not specifically learned in poodles. They may have another breed entirely that is their specialty. So making your poodle look its best is often the key to winning.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Someone recently said to me that there are a lot of nice quality dogs in the show ring and then it's up to the judge's personal opinion on which they like more. I think there are some politics like with everything but like with anything you get out of it what you put into it and I'm fully aware of this.

I like your story cbrand about losing coat and starting over. I mean it happens. People, breeders specifically, cannot expect someone to never lose coat ever. I mean they are dogs and they are going to play unless you stick them in a kennel for years until they finish their show career. It's nice to hear that you actually still do things with your dogs even though they are show dogs and in coat.


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

My male's mother has been shaved down four times during her show career, God knows how many more before she finishes. Life happens. I almost had to shave Yogi upon my return from vacation. YIKES.

Yogi will be two in February. As a hobby show person, I get him out on average once a month. Some months there are several shows in a row. Sometimes there are 3 months without one that I can get to. I have no realistic hope of finishing him anytime soon. If I wanted to finish him, I could send him with a professional and knock it out within 3 months most likely. I have had several handlers tell me they would love to take him. He is a beautifil dog. I am not interested in that. For me, it is the journey as opposed to the ultimate destination that is important. Once the dog is finished, so am I. I enjoy it too much to be finished. The professionals can tell when a dog is ready to finish. If they tell you you need more hair, listen to them. They know these things. I still like to show for fun anyway, just hoping maybe I will get a bone tossed to me from a judge even if my dog isn't ready yet. It never seems to happen though.

My worst experience was going to a show where the judge did NOT allow hairspray. This was before I made all my connections who would have warned me. These judges are few and far between but they are out there. Imagine my horror as I discovered the judge did not allow hairspray as I approached the ring. I was brushing and brushing and brushing it out. I didn't get thrown out, but I got dumped that day. Now I am careful to ask and observe others around me.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Fur Elite said:


> My worst experience was going to a show where the judge did NOT allow hairspray. This was before I made all my connections who would have warned me. These judges are few and far between but they are out there. Imagine my horror as I discovered the judge did not allow hairspray as I approached the ring. I was brushing and brushing and brushing it out. I didn't get thrown out, but I got dumped that day. Now I am careful to ask and observe others around me.


I think its is kind of silly for some judges to allow it , I mean ignore it and some that care about it. This should not be some kind of guessing game IMO. 

If AKC will start enforcing the rules more then people would not have to cheat as much as they do now.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

And you really can hide a lot of things in big hair. I have to admit I love a continental but I like a tight continental and not a huge topknot. I don't see the point in needing that hair. The dog couldn't "work" with it so why bother showing it like it's a necessity for the breed? A lot of potential pet owners are turned off of the poodle BECAUSE of the coat that is represented in the show ring. People don't realize that these dogs aren't foofoo dogs because their hair is so ridiculous.


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## dbrazzil (Nov 10, 2009)

Thanks for the info. I have considered pulling her for awhile to get her in a show quality coat. She is almost there and now we just need to work on personality.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> The dog couldn't "work" with it so why bother showing it like it's a necessity for the breed? A lot of potential pet owners are turned off of the poodle BECAUSE of the coat that is represented in the show ring. People don't realize that these dogs aren't foofoo dogs because their hair is so ridiculous.


I absolutely agree !!!! Standard poodle was thrown in "non-sporting" group and than somehow it became "normal" to have dogs in "abnormal" coats prancing around :scared: !!!! Working water dog would NEVER have coat like that . It is enough stigma attached to a poodle breed due to those exaggerated fro-fro cuts and having artificial "aids" used in the ring will only perpetuate and even inflate that image , for god's sake :doh:. It all became some bizarre beauty pageantry :smow: - just ridiculous and borderline ABUSIVE toward a dog :wacko:


Standard poodle - if we ever want to present it as a water retriever - what it originally IS - should be shown as other water retrievers -Irish Water Spaniel and Portuguese, but with shaven faces and butts and small poms as it was it's original cut whan breed was "made" for hunting purposes.

All of this craziness would than be weeded out automatically.

I know that this is just me "day-dreaming" , but hey - LOL


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, it makes sense to represent the breed in the hair that the dog would work in. What happened, I mean why did it get like this? I've seen the pictures of dog's past and it didn't start out this extreme. It's like in the Boston terrier, the face has gotten so extreme that these poor dogs almost have no face. Why go to such extremes? Does a tight continental with a reasonable topknot really NOT show a beautiful package?


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## katsdogworld (Jan 24, 2009)

Wishpoo, I'm wishing for the same right there with you...these are working dogs at their base, they should be shown as such....I'm just sayin...the whole elvis look has gotten waaaay out of hand.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Standard poodle - if we ever want to present it as a water retriever - what it originally IS - should be shown as other water retrievers -Irish Water Spaniel and Portuguese


A Poodle is more than a retriever, however. It is a multi-faceted, versatile working dog. I think we need to be careful not to concentrate on only the gundog aspect of the Poodle. There are Poodles out there herding for goodness sake!

BTW.... A Portie is not a retriever. It is a working water dog.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I agree  !!! Poodle is very versatile breed (as many other breeds are) - still - whatever 
performance it is "assigned" ( retrieving, agility, "herding" , lap-sitting, therapy, you add your favorite ...) HUMONGOUS top-knot and wigs are absolutely not necessary for it's function or performance LMAO !!!!

Please correct me if I am wrong :rolffleyes:

I even thunk that it is inhumane to keep dogs in a show coat for prolonged periods - obviously such care of the coat must be taken that dog is limited in its "choice of activities" and matting is many times the "end" result : (((. However I try to look at it - I still do not see the reason for the "extreme" !!!! Continental cut would be beautiful even without "Marie Antoniette " effect .

PS: Whatever the Portie is he has a coat that is very similar to a poodle coat - and that was the point I was trying to make : )


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

I think when I finally get my show spoo,
I will keep it in a more modified (ie shorterish lol) show trim, maybe lol
I guess it'll depend on the situation I'm in, but i'll definitely let it be a dog, just not in swamps lol


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I also think that if people continue to follow professional handlers in order to be "competitive" with their own dogs they are setting themselves up for failure and to use a professional handler which costs the owner a lot of money and sends their dog away from them for weeks at a time. Why has it gotten to the point that very few owner handlers are in the ring with poodles? It's gotten that way because the grooming is so labor intensive that the normal owner cannot keep up with it and has no way to learn how to do it. The constant banding in order to grow more hair. The constant brushing mounds of hair because of the worry of mats because of the tons of hair that has to be involved to win. The more people realize that they cannot do this the more money a professional handler will make. I mean what would happen if owner handlers just started showing their own dogs and stopping with the mounds of hair? I do realize for some that's just impossible so pros won't be completely out of a job, nor am I saying they should. I mean there are kennels that have quite a few dogs out showing at one time and keeping up with that many show coats would be very hard so pro handlers are useful. I just don't think that we as owners should be so intimidated by them in the ring that we resort to cheating in order to win. Show a poodle as what you say, cbrand, a working verstile dog. A dog cannot herd if it's got that ridiculous top knot. A dog cannot even be a true companion animal with that amount of hair because the normal pet owner cannot keep a dog in hair like that. Trends are all about what people follow. If people stopped following the trend would no longer hold up.


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

Poodles aren't the only ones. What about the long haired breeds, Maltese, Yorkis, Shihs, Havanese...etc etc etc. Same thing applies here. These dogs are very very hard for an owner handler to keep up with and show. Last dog show I was at, there was a woman brushing and wrapping her Maltese long beautiful coat. During the time she was brushing and wrapping, I prepared my poodle for the ring, showed him, broke him down and packed my things. She was still brushing and wrapping. Most amateurs owner handlers aren't going to be able to do that either. But it is what part of a dog show is all about.

OES (sheepdogs) are waaaaaay more work than a poodles coat, they just don't have the artistry of grooming. They are brushed for hours ever single day or they matt up like there is no tomorrow (and yes, they are shown blind with hair in the eyes but as soon as they are out of the ring that hair gets ponytailed up so they can see). Same goes for many many other longer haired breeds. I can't even tell you how many people I have had as grooming clients who get a dog and decided they want to keep it in whatever show trim that applies. I usually end up shearing those dogs with a 7 or even a 10 all over in a matter of weeks. People seem to think it is OK to not brush their pets hair and it will remain unmatted, yet are horrified at the thought of not brushing their own hair daily. Duh!

To me, half the fun is keeping my dog's hair up, getting them ready for the ring and showing off what I can do. I would find no joy in showing a short haired breed or a sheared down poodle. After all, all that would show was that I managed to purchase a nice dog, lucky me. But if I have to do actual work to make that dog look good, that is a reflection on me and my skills and my determination and my hard work. You know when you think about it, us owner handlers should have the edge on the pros. We only have one or two dogs to keep up with, get ready and present. They have a bunch more and probably other breeds in the ring they have to deal with at the same time. Here I just have my one dog. So far it hasn't panned out, but I will keep trying!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

That maybe okay for you but it's not for a lot of other people and why people send their dogs out with handlers. A person should be able to show their own dog without the worry that the pros have a better advantage on them because of the massive amounts of hair they can grow which is why I'm saying the trend for huge manes and topknots to stop and go back to a more normal sized continental.

You are right the long hair on some breeds is a lot of work to keep it mat free since they only have a single coat there has to be a lot of wrapping to preserve that and anyone that knows a toy breed would know that they aren't trying to go jump in your nearest lake or run through a field of brush. They are most often lap dogs (which was the intent of the group) and pampered and catered to. That's not the "job" of the standard of even mini poodle. I'm just saying to show the dog in a coat that represents it better. A dog can't even play most often in a show coat. That's just ridiculous. How can a dog be a dog if it can't play?

Stuff like this is SAD!


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

I have to say again that dog shows are supposed to be about breeding stock. a modified continental more like the original working clip would seem more approperate. If Grooming is you thing and I myself do enjoy doing my own grooming, then maybe you should compete in grooming compititions. Then it would be a reflection of your skill and about what you can do. I think the reason the UKC shows that are so meligned are gaining in popularity because they don't require the big show coat and all the "cheats" that go along with that. It is ashame the AKC dosn't see this in my opinion. As the AKC seems to be the gold standard.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

gingersnap said:


> I have to say again that dog shows are supposed to be about breeding stock. a modified continental more like the original working clip would seem more approperate. If Grooming is you thing and I myself do enjoy doing my own grooming, then maybe you should compete in grooming compititions. Then it would be a reflection of your skill and about what you can do. I think the reason the UKC shows that are so meligned are gaining in popularity because they don't require the big show coat and all the "cheats" that go along with that. It is ashame the AKC dosn't see this in my opinion. As the AKC seems to be the gold standard.


I totally agree. If you wanted to compete your grooming skills there are avenues to do that.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Stuff like this is SAD!


I disagree. I just got done house sitting for three stpoos, and it snowed here. Only after being out for just a couple minutes to relieve themselves, they had snowballs between their toes, up their legs, on their faces, in their ears. I had to pick all the stuff off before letting them in the house. (Not huge snowballs, but enough to make a mess and make them wet when they came inside.)

I thought how convenient it would be to have pants for them, then just slip them off when them come inside. Those snowballs between their toes can't be comfortable.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

Fur Elite said:


> OES (sheepdogs) are waaaaaay more work than a poodles coat, they just don't have the artistry of grooming. They are brushed for hours ever single day or they matt up like there is no tomorrow (and yes, they are shown blind with hair in the eyes but as soon as they are out of the ring that hair gets ponytailed up so they can see).


Gotta say, they're not nearly as labour intensive as they seem! Once a week I spend an hour drying & brushing one of my OES clients in a full coat, he doesn't get brushed at all at home, and it's spring time at the moment here so he's dropping his winter coat too, and the worst I've come across is some tangles that blow right out... He's a pet, and not a show dog, so his coat is all broken and mussed up from his frequent walks through the bush, but his coat certainly ain't matted after a week (or even two, when I go on holiday they refuse to take him to anyone else... lol)


But I agree, and I do think that if I did ever get a spoo to show, it'd be in a HCC, or something less than a full continental anyway!!! There's only one other guy down here that shows a standard poodle in town, and it's in a big full coat and he's well known (the breeder of Jaks girl) so we'd probably never beat him, but he doesn't live locally, so isn't at all the shows... lol!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Ahh you never know! I talked to a lady that said that a lot of newbies can't see the forest for the trees. I think I can be like that sometimes. You see all these obstacles in front of you but if you just take a step back you can see the bigger picture. You can win as an owner handler it just might take more time.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

It'll be interesting to see what happens lol
And they are owner handlers too lol


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Poodlepal said:


> I would like NOTHING more than to be able to trot out there with my dogs unsprayed and poorly (in comparison) groomed. It sure would be a lot easier to finish a dog and I wouldn't have to stress myself out trying to outdo the competition, who can run circles around me! I can't compete with some of those masters. But it is the way it is done. I have been around long enough to have a true respect for what those people do out there, their experience, their drive, their skill and motivations. It is easy to sit back and judge them all on what they should or shouldn't do, but until you have actually lived it, you really have no idea.
> 
> There are some things in life you either learn to accept or you can go on being unhappy and bitter about it. Not just in dog shows, but in everything all around us everyday. I prefer not to be unhappy or bitter. Time, age and experience has taught me that we can't live in a Utopian nirvana. If the ovens too hot, get out of the kitchen! * But if your gonna stay in the kitchen, get out of the way because I am there to cook*.



Love that!!! lol

Im guilty of chalking the white on our Amstaffs we showed previously or filling in a spot on the nose that wasnt fully pigmented yet with some nose black. So what??? Its only enhancing the beauty of the dog and believe me, if you walk in the ring with a crappy dog that is chalked/sprayed/dyed etc, that doesnt mean your gonna win. A judge can still pick out a structurely sound dog weither its completely natural or chalked and sprayed. 

Its all in the name of the game. There are little tricks (moves/positions) you learn while handling to help your dog stand out against the others. For us, we werent gonna spend the money we did to walk in the ring and have our dog look any less then the specials when starting out. I dont think there is anything wrong with adding some chalk to a few area's to make the white whiter or what ever. I personally wouldnt actually dye my dogs hair but little things like some hair spray, nose color, coat shine or chalk seem harmless in my opinion. 

I guess all depends on what results your looking for in the end. AKC is big on presentation and that goes for the dog too.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Not if hairspray and chalk are actually against the rules. I guess I'm just a stickler for rules but I might not be saying that if I keep getting dumped when I actually do get to show.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Why even have rules if people to not abide by them?

If you need to add hair, hair spray, chalk, die or any other enhancer to your dog in order to win your dog should not be shown in the first place.

Grooming is one thing but falsifying an aspect of your dog like hair density/color and pigmentation you win by falsehoods and breed falsehoods thus having lesser dogs entering into the breeding pool.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I agree 100%. If your dog can't look good in a normal continental (HCC) then your dog doesn't NEED to win in the first place, sorry. As hard as it is for some people to face, their dogs aren't perfect (as I don't believe any dog is) and another might be better, it's just a fact of life. Cheating to win is the worst sort of poor sportsmanship I've ever heard of and to defend it like there's nothing wrong with it is just as bad. If you need to cheat to win because you need to keep up with the rest of the crowd, then you might need to reconsider why you are doing what you are doing in the first place.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

So what you are saying is that no dog that is a pet should be shown? My pet poodles have often required some color enhancers, chalk and hair spray etc due to their pet lives. Since they frolicked in the fields, played with the cattle etc, they tended to get stained if they were white, or sun tinted when they were dark. There were not genetically incorrect, they were pets having wonderful lives! They couldn't compete in the ring against kennel dogs whose coats were immaculate, as dogs kept in kennels do not have these issues had we not used *tricks of the trade* to restore their natural beauty. The kennel dogs' color is beautiful and their coats were flowing. 

This kind of thinking just makes it harder for the amateurs to enter the ring.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think the other way around makes it harder for amateurs to enter the ring. I AM an amateur and I just can't wait to get in the ring with dogs with wigs, hairspray, professional groomers, dyed dogs, etc. (said sacrastically). What's wrong with just showing your dog naturally? If your dogs live a normal life and get dirty, washing them with whitening shampoo doesn't really seem like a big deal or cheating. You should be proud that your dogs lead normal lives and show that off to the people that keep all of these kennel dogs in perfect HUGE coat that don't have families of their own. I'm not saying not to protect their coat to some degree but IMO, it's gotten out of hand. It's become a handler's grooming contest.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Poodlepal said:


> So what you are saying is that no dog that is a pet should be shown? My pet poodles have often required some color enhancers, chalk and hair spray etc due to their pet lives. Since they frolicked in the fields, played with the cattle etc, they tended to get stained if they were white, or sun tinted when they were dark. There were not genetically incorrect, they were pets having wonderful lives! They couldn't compete in the ring against kennel dogs whose coats were immaculate, as dogs kept in kennels do not have these issues had we not used *tricks of the trade* to restore their natural beauty. The kennel dogs' color is beautiful and their coats were flowing.
> 
> This kind of thinking just makes it harder for the amateurs to enter the ring.


Not at all, I think they should be judged against the standard and any form of "cheating" should be penalized.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

It would be nice Kpoos....but last time I checked I haven't met any people who just show up at dog shows for the heck knowing they have no chance of winning!

I had one dog that was so stained she had to be bleached with, gasp, hair bleach from a salon! So, is this cheating?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Poodlepal said:


> It would be nice Kpoos....but last time I checked I haven't met any people who just show up at dog shows for the heck knowing they have no chance of winning!


Ummm we do lol We know Enzo is not going to win since he is red. So we practice and have fun doing it. We will be using a pro handler when he gets more hair. Other than that all of the entries we put him in where just for kicks

I might enter him for the lb show for fun. since we have been going to the handling classes


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

It's not something I'd do but it's not my dog. Yeah sure everyone wants to win but to what lengths will you go to in order to do that? I guess I'm just a MarySue that wants to have fun and if my dog looks good and wins that day then great and if it doesn't I need to work on it and do better. I'm not as competitive as you by nature I don't think. I guess I'm just naive to think that showing my poodle off could actually be just for a good time with my dog and not something that makes or breaks me as a person.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

WOW kpoos! You have come full circle, kudos to you for finally saying maybe showing can be fun and that it isn't just about then end result and breeding and all of that! Just recently you were arguing on another thread quite in the opposite direction (one of those threads we aren't supposed to talk about anymore). Maybe with this revelation, you can truly find happiness with a dog. Better late than never! Welcome to the club!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, I think you misunderstood my meaning in my previous post and you just RAN with it. The origin of dog showing was to breed the best to the best. So you went and showed off what you had in order for it to be judged to the standard. Part of the breed standard is temperament. If a dog doesn't have proper temperament there is no use in showing it because it's not to the standard nor is it breeding quality. Besides if a dog has a soft temperament it's not going to enjoy showing anyway and that will show itself. Does that make better sense than how I said it before? That statement doesn't mean that* I *personally want to breed dogs, it just meant that is the reason behind dog showing in the first place. 

As far as being happy with a dog...I'm really happy with my current dog and he's a neutered pet. The entire objective originally with the previous puppy was to go and have fun and learn to groom a show dog. It remains the same. I never have cared a thing about breeding, I still don't.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Shazam! OK, let's see.....now we are back to that you only want to have *fun* with a dog if it is a absolute perfect (as you see it) specimen, (which you previously said in another post doesn't exist)? You are crazy girl! You peddle and back peddle faster than a New York minute! It does make for some entertaining reading tho! I think I need a drink!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> Shazam! OK, let's see.....now we are back to that you only want to have *fun* with a dog if it is a absolute perfect (as you see it) specimen, (which you previously said in another post doesn't exist)? You are crazy girl! You peddle and back peddle faster than a New York minute! It does make for some entertaining reading tho! I think I need a drink!


Well, alrighty then. Did I say the words "absolutely perfect?" I think that someone's definition of perfection is very subjective like it's been said in another thread. I happen to think my children are pretty perfect. I doubt they are but in my eyes they are. No, there are no truly perfect dogs in this world you are correct but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what you or I think is beautiful might not be what the judge at the next show agrees with. I do think temperaments have to work with the family the dog is in. I don't see what's so wrong with that now do you?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

The fact that Kpoos even responded to that comment is beyond me...what in the world would make someone ((poodlepals)) try and attack someone they don't even know like that

I personally think for a beginner show person having fun SHOULD be the object of showing...having fun whether you win or not is whats called "Good Sportsmanship" evidently poodlepals missed that lesson in his/her teen development class?

and if it was decided between the mutual parties not to discuss a previous thread...why would you mention it at all? when in all reality it has NO relevance to this current thread?


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Following along with the saga again......I thought kpoos was talking about the lack of fairness and to much cheating and what should be acceptable in showing because it's taking away from the purpose of showing, breeding champions etc. 

Bottom line cheating is cheating, however you chose to swing whats acceptable and whats not is the discussion - why does there have to be an agreement? It's different opinions. Bringing up past posts/thread have no relevance to this post - unless to undermine someones credibility and I cannot imagine thats what happening..... :rolffleyes:

Unfortunately from what I have read it's acceptable to use spray, pieces, gels and so on as long as blends and it is not noticed by the judges. If it passes then it does, is it right? IMO No, so ok. If the sponsors and organizations are going to base there points/judging off of this, to me they encourage the cheating. To me thats not reputable, well and many others because in the end it does take away from the dog it becomes more about the handler winning and not showing a TRUE breed for what it is. Certainly temperament has to be pretty important or it would be a waste to do it........the dogs just not interested in the long run, why go thru all that frustration.


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

maybe if the rules were inforced and people did just show up with clean healthy dogs it would make it fair and ok to show "pet" dogs. I thought that most pet dogs tho are dogs with conformation faults not faults from being a regular dog. the only way that it is nothing more than a beauty contest is if dog are shown as they are with out enhancement. And I don't mean not clean and well kept, just no dyeing, chalking, wigs, etc.... and yes bleaching a dog is cheating just as dyeing is or coloring in the points.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

﻿﻿﻿





















OK - to come back to the real issue here  ! Both of the above dogs are Ch. Second dog is actually Canadian *and* USA Ch titled . 

The difference in the top-knot is VERY obvious and I find second dog absolutely more beautiful and more natural looking without "all that Jazz" on the top of his head LOL (I want to make clear that I am not implying that first dog had a "wig" - I just do not like over-the-top "hairdoo" )

BUT, what is even more important - second dog obviously had NO problem getting TWO Ch titles without exaggeration.

Cheating in the ring can be very easily regulated - but now I wonder if actually show people who do such "corrections" are not lobbing for the opposite LOL and that is why it is "tolerated" and perpetuated :rolffleyes:


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Yes the second one is what she is. Real and it was fair and square.


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

Beautiful dogs, and I agree I like the second hair do. I think you are right on the money


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> ﻿﻿﻿
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, there is a lot of truth to this. Judges are selected based on the entries they can attract. Judges who don't allow hairspray, or who drag the wicket out at the slightest approach to the limit aren't popular. If they can't attract entries, they are less likely to be invited to judge at a large show. The second dog looks nice. It still has a topknot. Is it in a HCC or is it a younger dog with less hair? It is hard to tell. The top dog could be better put up, but I imagine the hair has fallen.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Poodlepal said:


> I had one dog that was so stained she had to be bleached with, gasp, hair bleach from a salon! So, is this cheating?


Yes that would be cheating, if your dog was that stained you shave it down and start over


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Why is it cheating to bleach a fist sized area on the underneath of the bitch and not cheating to use brighteners and whiteners?


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

You are changing the color of the coat with bleach/dye. I don't care to much for color enhancing shampoos either but with those you can only do so much.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

I will add that the bitch had one single point to earn before being finished when the staining took place. Given this situation, anyone who says they would have shaved her stained hair, put her up and grown it out before finishing her is either a liar, or an idiot!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, if it was that small of a discolored spot you could have just shown her with it like that anyway or just waited until it grew out enough to cut it off and shape the hair around it. I mean what's the crime in waiting it out?


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Poodlepal said:


> I will add that the bitch had one single point to earn before being finished when the staining took place. Given this situation, anyone who says they would have shaved her stained hair, put her up and grown it out before finishing her is either a liar, or an idiot!


First off you never said how big the stain was until your second post, second I agree with KPoos you could have waited until the hair grew out enough to cut it and shape it back up. Lastly back the judgment truck up! I am neither a liar nor an idiot. next time enplane the situation in which you want an opinion on, not fill it with holes to set us up so you can call us names.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Purple Poodle said:


> First off you never said how big the stain was until your second post, second I agree with KPoos you could have waited until the hair grew out enough to cut it and shape it back up. Lastly back the judgment truck up! I am neither a liar nor an idiot. next time enplane the situation in which you want an opinion on, not fill it with holes to set us up so you can call us names.


Oh you noticed that too?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Now- how about this 

Scandinavian show dogs (multiple Ch titled) - I find this breathtaking !!!! So elegant, fluffy and natural looking !!! Even tails look like they are not docked ?!

:marchmellow:

PS: As far as I understood , the black dog is 14 mos. so it must be "adult class" ???


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

that is what I would love to see! Beautiful poodles that look, you said it, elegant, fluffy and natural!!! A cut that would be eaiser to live with and that the general public would understand. Its makes them look like the beautiful dogs they are and not some foo foo dog. thanks for sharing


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Now- how about this
> 
> Scandinavian show dogs (multiple Ch titled) - I find this breathtaking !!!! So elegant, fluffy and natural looking !!! Even tails look like they are not docked ?!
> 
> ...


Those dogs are in the European clips
I am pretty sure you can show adult standard poodles in that clip in Europe,
and I don't think they allow hairspray either.
Over here, most of the toys seem to be shown in these clips, there is only one standard that I know of that that was shown in this clip, and he got his NZ CH


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

Sometimes they aren't considered adults in European countries until they are over 15-18 months old. There is a term for the class but I can't remember it.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I really like those dogs and the fact that you can see that they don't have hairspray. I wish it was easier but it's like some exclusive club with poodles. Either you are a great groomer or you don't belong. It's very off putting to new people wanting to get started in the breed and that only isolates and elevates the breeders that use professional handlers. I guess if they never want anyone new to be involved it can just stay the way it is because very few people will stick it out.


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

Aw, don't be so defeatist. Remember that stupid saying about if it was easy everyone could do it, or if it's too easy it's not worth doing, or some nonsense like that? Just like everything that is worth doing, you have to start somewhere and usually it is right at the bottom. Show grooming and pet grooming are two totally different things, and anyone can learn to do either one. It just takes practice and patience, and the ability to break a large problem down into manageable pieces. I think what puts most people off is that they think if they have a nice dog they should just be able to walk in the ring and do well. I used to feel that way. You learn over time that there is much much more to it than that and if you have resolve and determination, you can achieve something special. Standards are one of the most difficult breeds to succeed in as an amateur, but people do it every day! I can rattle off the names of at least 10 people that I know very well who are amateur owner handlers with at least one finished dog to their name. They may or may not have had professional help with the majors, but they all put many points on their own dogs.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

KPoos said:


> I really like those dogs and the fact that you can see that they don't have hairspray. I wish it was easier but it's like some exclusive club with poodles. Either you are a great groomer or you don't belong. It's very off putting to new people wanting to get started in the breed and that only isolates and elevates the breeders that use professional handlers. I guess if they never want anyone new to be involved it can just stay the way it is because very few people will stick it out.


AMEN!!! My sentiments exactly!! My Mother had a pup from her gorgeous silver stud dog Thinker. She grew her coat out (my Mom was 73 at the time) and said her dream was to have one more champion before she died. THEN she went to the Poodle Club of Canada speciality show. One of the handlers was harried and Mom offered to help her, and watched while the woman plucked extensions out of one of her charges top knots. Mom came home and promptly clipped Joy down stating she would never do this to win, and that it it virtually impossible to beat people who cheat. This and the politics are the main reason I gave up showing years ago.

A breeder who has been mentioned on various threads had a "red" they brought in from Europe. While he was being shown and working toward his championship, he was a rich, lush red. When I met him at their home during the down time of the show circuit, he was nearly light enough to be considered apricot, a washed oujtt version of his former self. I asked what happened, and the husband very glibly responded that being a red head myself, I knew what colour to purchase. While some may think it is okay to cheat, if I had used this dog to sire a litter, then discovered they had been dying him all along, I would have sued them for fraud!! How can you plan to improve your lines if what you see is not what you get. If dogs are dyed or photos are enhanced, is this not considered a total misrepresentation. I find these practices disgusting at best.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

And isn't that the ultimate goal, to improve the lines? I don't for one second think that there isn't some motivation behind cheating that doesn't have to do with the big green machine.

To sit and defend the cheating practices is even worse! So just because someone does cheat, in order for you to keep up instead of doing the right thing, you just cheat right along with them? Doesn't show much moral character if you ask me.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am with you all the way KPoos!! How can we possibly know what we are breeding to if the dogs nose is coloured, or it is dyed, or if it has had corrective surgery? I choose a male to breed my girls to based on extensive research, what I have heard, what I SEE and WHAT I AM TOLD!! If the person who owns the male cheats to win, they surely are not going to tell me the dog is anything but what they have led me to believe he is. THAT is not fair, moral or legal, in my opinion.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am with you all the way KPoos!! How can we possibly know what we are breeding to if the dogs nose is coloured, or it is dyed, or if it has had corrective surgery? I choose a male to breed my girls to based on extensive research, what I have heard, what I SEE and WHAT I AM TOLD!! If the person who owns the male cheats to win, they surely are not going to tell me the dog is anything but what they have led me to believe he is. THAT is not fair, moral or legal, in my opinion.


And a lot of times the dog doesn't live in your "neighborhood" so all you know about it is what the breeder tells you, what you see in show pictures, and what you've seen at shows. It's really easy to lie to someone in order to get your money. That's what I'm saying, money motivates a lot of the cheating I'm sure. Money also motivates why it's a handler's game and not one for the faint of heart or for people that "just want to have fun with their dog." You have to have thick skin to get involved in this whole game because if you interfer, it's MONEY that will be taken from the hands of the people that run the game. Politics in it's purest form when it's supposed to be all about the dogs.:rolffleyes:

I must be insane for wanting to do this but I think that a small part of me is still naive enough to believe that I can participate on a small level and still enjoy myself.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Amen!!!!!


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

Are you flipping kidding me? People put WIGS on their show dogs? I thought it was bad enough in those kiddie pageants, but on DOGS? Well now I've heard of everything.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Bella's Momma said:


> Are you flipping kidding me? People put WIGS on their show dogs? I thought it was bad enough in those kiddie pageants, but on DOGS? Well now I've heard of everything.


:lol:


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

It seems to be the people that are more opinionated on the "completely natural" state of the dog have never shown a dog before. I would love to come back to this subject after each one has had some time to show a dog and experience the things that come up with a dog while your showing. lol Im not at all trying to be or sound rude, its just a fact. 

Im not sure if many realize that the vendors at the AKC show's sell a majority of these products. If AKC was really so serious about not allowing chalk, coat shine, color enhancing products, nose color etc....they wouldnt allow it to be sold or used in the grooming area's provided by AKC. 

Someone stated the comment "if a dog needs to be enhanced it should not be shown in the first place". lol That cracked me up! So making some area's on a white dog a little flashier (whiter) would mean its not good enough to be shown. Or a dog that needs a spot filled in on its nose because it hasnt fully filled in yet is not worthy or being a show dog? Come on! lol

This is what Im talking about when I say that people that have NEVER shown should not be so quick to make strong statements when they have never been there and done it.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think that's a fair statement but so is I don't want to cheat regardless of who sells what or who overlooks what. I don't really think some chalk to make the dog whiter is really "cheating." I'm more unimpressed with people doing surgical proceedures, dying a dog to darken it, coloring a nose (because in poodles it's a fault if the dog has the wrong colored nose) and adding wigs. I do not care if I've never shown a dog before. I don't need to win that bad if I have to cheat. Again, I've said this before, maybe I'm naive in thinking that you can win based on your own merits. I don't care enough about dog showing to lower myself to a cheater's standard. So if I have to dye a dog or fix a bite or color a nose in order to win, I'm just not going to win because that dog doesn't deserve to win!


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Bella's Momma said:


> Are you flipping kidding me? People put WIGS on their show dogs? I thought it was bad enough in those kiddie pageants, but on DOGS? Well now I've heard of everything.


I actually didnt realize that until I owned a poodle. lol Ya I had no idea they actually put extentions on a poodle. I think thats just crazy and I would never go that far. I dont like the over done, super high top knot look anyhow. 

I dont see anything wrong with some chalk to brighten the coat, a nice oil to make the coat shine, filling in a spot on the nose, shaving off whisker's for a cleaner look but actually putting in extentions seems alot more extreme.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

KPoos said:


> I think that's a fair statement but so is I don't want to cheat regardless of who sells what or who overlooks what. I don't really think some chalk to make the dog whiter is really "cheating." I'm more unimpressed with people doing surgical proceedures, dying a dog to darken it, coloring a nose (because in poodles it's a fault if the dog has the wrong colored nose) and adding wigs. I do not care if I've never shown a dog before. I don't need to win that bad if I have to cheat. Again, I've said this before, maybe I'm naive in thinking that you can win based on your own merits. I don't care enough about dog showing to lower myself to a cheater's standard. So if I have to dye a dog or fix a bite or color a nose in order to win, I'm just not going to win because that dog doesn't deserve to win!


I agree that coloring a full nose is not right. But some breeds like Amstaffs for instance, dont always have a completely filled in nose at the 6-8 month age but have full pigment on the eyes and a majority of the nose. So filling in a spot seems like no big deal to me. A whole nose is something different and I dont see how that can be done because if a dog has a pink nose it usually wont have the proper pigment around the eyes either. So you really cant get away with something like that....atleast I didnt know you could. lol

Im not into dyeing a dog either...just not my thing but color enhancing shampoo's dont seem like a big deal to me. I guess it depend's on how far some people take it. I have done the thing's I listed before. Even with my dog "enhanced" vs a completely natural dog next to me, if the competition is good then we both have a chance to win.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I wanted to say that I think there is a huge difference in preparing your dog to look it's best and present a beautiful package and cheating by doing the things that are specifically forbidden in the rules. Whitening shampoo doesn't dye a dog because you can use it on all colors. It just cleans the coat so that it's brighter.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

My Mother and I used to show dogs A LOT! We had many Champions in the late sixties and seventies, and I promise you this...not one of our show-breeding dogs was altered in any way, shape or form, so my opinion is not that of someone who has not experienced it or been there and done that. I am sure there were people dying dogs then, but only to enhance what was already there (which is bad enough), not to change the dogs colour entirely. There were very few cosmetic surgeries, and if you did it and you got caught you got expelled from the show. I too do not see a problem with chalking, because white coat can yellow. Nor do I see a problem with oils, but dying, cosmetic corrections and the like are just plain wrong in my opinion.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

SECRETO said:


> I agree that coloring a full nose is not right. But some breeds like Amstaffs for instance, dont always have a completely filled in nose at the 6-8 month age but have full pigment on the eyes and a majority of the nose.


This is true! My pitmix is proof of it, and I actually have photos over the years to show it!

This is when we first got her, before she was a year old.









This is when she was about two.









This is last summer, she was about three.









And I JUST took this one. She turns four this month.









You can REALLY see the color change on her muzzle, not so much her nose, but I'm sure the coloring is similar in amstaffs.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> My Mother and I used to show dogs A LOT! We had many Champions in the late sixties and seventies, and I promise you this...not one of our show-breeding dogs was altered in any way, shape or form, so my opinion is not that of someone who has not experienced it or been there and done that. I am sure there were people dying dogs then, but only to enhance what was already there (which is bad enough), not to change the dogs colour entirely. There were very few cosmetic surgeries, and if you did it and you got caught you got expelled from the show. I too do not see a problem with chalking, because white coat can yellow. Nor do I see a problem with oils, but dying, cosmetic corrections and the like are just plain wrong in my opinion.


I totally agree with that. I remember a person we used to associate with had a beautiful female puppy but by 6 months, her bite went bad. He was actually considering putting braces on this dog and found a person who would do it. Thankfully he came to his senses and had her spayed and placed in a pet home but I couldnt believe he was considering it. 

Also people have procedures done like having the ligement cut that is responsible for the dog carrying its tail high or over the back. ( Im sorry but I dont know exactly what that procedure is called) Some breeds arent supposed to carry a tail over its back and I personally know this is done often. Cosmetic stuff like actually dyeing the coat, braces for a bite, a fake testicle added, extentions etc is over board and I agree should not be acceptable.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Fluffyspoo's, she is cute and thats exactly what Im meaning when I say coloring in a spot on a nose is no big deal. You can see she had full pigment around the eyes already. 

I think I have a few of our female Amstaff Cherry we had. Excuse the quality of first pic...they had just got done playing in a muddy field when we took that pic. lol Fun times! 

1st pic about 7-8 months (red and white dog)

2nd pic about 1.5 years old


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

Nose black in poodles is most often used to repair a condition called "winter nose". Winter nose occurs when the environmental elements conspire to make a nose blotchy, most often occuring in winter. Some poodles have been known, however, to rub their nose raw thus resulting in a temporary pink spot. I fail to see the issue of using nose black for these cosmetic purposes.

I don't know what kind of people you guys are hanging around (those of you who actually have been showing dogs) or what has led to this vast belief of this widespread cheating (for the greater many of you who are not), but this hasn't been my experience at all. I set up frequently with one of the most well known breeder/handlers in my state. Aside from some wigs in a special, I have never witnessed any cheating. In fact, I have witnessed on many occassions this particular person (and other lesser known handlers) gently refusing to take on a new client due to their dog not being up to their standards. Clearly they could cheat and take this person's money if they were so inclined. I have witnessed these people helping out their competition to prepare the dogs for the ring if someone has a conflict. I have seen rivals take in dogs for each other when the other one is otherwise engaged.

Most of these people are true professionals and have years and years of building their reputations at stake. They breed and have access to the most fabulous dogs around. They don't need to risk their reputations on substandard dogs. So while I appreciate that it is easy for some to justify the loss of their dog to another by claiming the other dog has cheated in some way, or to use the jaded mentality of "they are all a bunch of cheaters" to justify their hidden fear of getting in the ring, I can tell you from what I have seen it just isn't a rampant, raging issue. Of course there are some exceptions and everyone generally knows who those people are. Even these people are treated with respect by their fellow handlers. They are not, however, by and large the dedicated professionals who slog it out weekend after weekend. And for those who may think this is all about money. I have a news flash for you. These people are not making a ton of money. I have been to their homes and kennels. They are not living large. They live a life that consists of barely being home and spending days on the road in between weekends in some of the dirtiest, nastiest places that you wouldn't stop in overnight if someone paid you to do it. Most of them donote what little money they do have toward the research into the breed's genetic issues.

Poodles have evolved over time to be what they currently are in the ring, and they will continue to evolve. Who knows what they will look like in ten years. The well done poodle is a major attraction to the general public. Issues such as tail docking and ear cropping, to me, are much greater concern than someone growing an accentuated long mane and using hairspray. 

I would caution those with little to no experience to actually get out and meet a few of the handlers out there and hang out with them for a while before casting such a wide net of judgment.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think most of the people besides myself that have posted in this thread have seen things first hand and have many years experience in showing. Not all states are the same. In some it's worse than others and I've talked to many breeders that agree with me. It's not like someone's actually going to just come out publically and admit they cheat. I mean like you said there are reputations and money at stake so it's carefully hidden.

I just asked a question because I saw someone mentioned it in another thread. I can tell you first hand experience that breeders will and do sell substandard dogs to novice people and tell them to "cheat" in order to get the dog where it needs to be to be shown. That I can say with 100% positivity because it happened to me personally in our state!


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

Kpoos, what was the issue with the dog offered to you that you had to "cheat" to fix?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Bite was off. I was specifically told by a professional handler, dog's breeder, and the person that was a breeder that referred me to the handler that they could show me how to put braces on the dog to correct the bite and that once the bite was adjusted he was showable. He was undershot, it wasn't too bad but that is a disqualifying fault in that breed. He was pet quality sold as show quality to a person that didn't know any better and didn't have the tools to teach herself to know better. They wanted to be rid of a puppy and they unloaded it on someone unsuspecting. This was many years ago for me and I've learned a lot since then. 

I'm not saying everyone cheats. Like in everything there are people that just are sticklers for the rules. You yourself have said that there are judges that aren't as "welcome" to judge shows because they are strict and stick to the rules and I'm sure that there are exhibitors that are the same way. I've researched dog showing for so many years and talked to so many different breeders in different breeds that I hear a resounding common statement repeated over and over. If you are going to show dogs it's political and you have to be able to take the good with the bad. There are good people in the business and there are bad and you have to figure out who is who and decide what you want to do.


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

This thread initially started discussing more mundane practices. I hope that people do not take away the message that handlers who use wigs, paint a nose or use hairspray are the same as those who use braces or do surgical alterations. The true professionals have not the time, interest or need to go to such lengths. Also, these extremes are simply not practiced day in and day out. These are the types of exceptions that occur in every sport. The idiots who decide to dope for a race, or to bash Nancy Kerrigan's knees in. I would just hope that none of the inexperienced readers paint the majority of handlers and breeders with this broad brush of deceit.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

> This thread initially started discussing more mundane practices. I hope that people do not take away the message that handlers who use wigs, paint a nose or use hairspray are the same as those who use braces or do surgical alterations. The true professionals have not the time, interest or need to go to such lengths. Also, these extremes are simply not practiced day in and day out. These are the types of exceptions that occur in every sport. The idiots who decide to dope for a race, or to bash Nancy Kerrigan's knees in. I would just hope that none of the inexperienced readers paint the majority of handlers and breeders with this broad brush of deceit.


I don't think anyone said *all* breeders and handlers are cheaters but you your self even stated it is done. But altering the dogs appearance either by coloring the nose/hair or straightening the teeth/tail is still falsifying the dog you are presenting be it from one extreme to another.



> Someone stated the comment "if a dog needs to be enhanced it should not be shown in the first place". lol That cracked me up! So making some area's on a white dog a little flashier (whiter) would mean its not good enough to be shown. Or a dog that needs a spot filled in on its nose because it hasnt fully filled in yet is not worthy or being a show dog? Come on! lol
> 
> This is what Im talking about when I say that people that have NEVER shown should not be so quick to make strong statements when they have never been there and done it.


That would be me  If your dog is not white enough and the pigment has not filled in yet then yes I think that dog should not be shown. Show the dog as it is, that's it. Make it presentable and to the standard but don't add or cover up something.

By the way I hate when people automatically think that just because you have not had hands on experience means you have no idea what you are talking about. I have shown rabbits for 10 years and let me tell you the amount of cheating that goes on there can rival any in the dog world. I never cheated showing rabbits, be it plucking a white hair out of a black (a fault) or coloring a toe nail (a DQ) or keeping my rabbits in toy less hutches just to save coat and to keep them from rubbing a bald spot. I won with my rabbits and felt proud about it. I stopped showing when the breed I loved started to change physically.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Nope I don't think anyone said EVERYONE. It wasn't even implied. 

Just curious why you can't show a dog if this "winter nose" is a well known fact? I have a black standard and he spends a lot of time outdoors and he's never had this "winter nose."


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Purple Poodle said:


> I don't think anyone said *all* breeders and handlers are cheaters but you your self even stated it is done. But altering the dogs appearance either by coloring the nose/hair or straightening the teeth/tail is still falsifying the dog you are presenting be it from one extreme to another.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just because I decided to brighten up her white a little more and touch up a spot on her nose doesnt mean my dog wasnt presentable. We showed her completely untouched before too. It just depended on what I had time for before we went in the ring. 

You and I purple poodle will run around and around justifying why we think the way we do. Im not interested in doing that again on this thread. I am sorry that stuff like this dicourages you from showing dogs (you mentioned that in a previous thread before). Chalk, nose black and some coat oil seems pitty compared to the cosmetic procedures people choose to do that are a much bigger concern....well in my opinion atleast.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> The Black one definitely has hairspray in it. As for the cut, it looks nice, but all that hair on the legs means that much more brushing, drying, and scissoring.
> 
> Also.... the Swedish dogs are known for having terrible feet. Their clip hides the feet, so judges don't see/judge them.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

KPoos said:


> Nope I don't think anyone said EVERYONE. It wasn't even implied.
> 
> Just curious why you can't show a dog if this "winter nose" is a well known fact? I have a black standard and he spends a lot of time outdoors and he's never had this "winter nose."


You can of course show your dog like that but I think some prefer to touch it up when that happens. My Rat Terrier loses a little pigment just in the middle of her nose during the winter months otherwise her nose is completely black. Not all dogs have that issue but I know that some do get it during colder seasons.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

cbrand said:


> wishpoo said:
> 
> 
> > The Black one definitely has hairspray in it. As for the cut, it looks nice, but all that hair on the legs means that much more brushing, drying, and scissoring.
> ...


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

I have shown rabbits for 10 years and let me tell you the amount of cheating that goes on there can rival any in the dog world. I never cheated showing rabbits, be it plucking a white hair out of a black (a fault) or coloring a toe nail (a DQ) or keeping my rabbits in toy less hutches just to save coat and to keep them from rubbing a bald spot. I won with my rabbits and felt proud about it. I stopped showing when the breed I loved started to change physically. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

(Puts on TEFLON jacket!)
It must be really hard to train those rabbits to run in a circle and stack like that! I have never shown rabbits tho, so I sure don't want to give input pr appear like some sort of an expert on something I have never done!

How long u been showing dogs, purple?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Oh I guess I'll just take back all of my opinions then.:lol:


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

The hairspray IS a drag! It looks wonderful in the ring, but getting it out in between shows is a nightmare. You have to break it down or the hair will be damaged. Getting it out of the hair in between shows also breaks hair. It becomes a sticky mess and the hair mats really fast down at the base. I hate dealing with it due to the mess and damage. But if you don't use it, your dog is assumed to be a filler and won't be able to compete.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

How do you get it out if you are at a weekend show? Do you have to rebathe the dog at the motel and then dry it back out?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

*FUR ELITE* _ that is exactly the point I was trying to make all of this time - WHY put dogs and owners /breeders through such ordeals - why not having dog shown in its "natural" coat when it is soooo beautiful to begin with ??? Why spend hours and hours on superficial and ARTIFICIAL elements ??? It would be fair more to the dog and the people participating !

*Cbrand* - I think that your statement about "bad legs" in Scandinavian dogs is really hilariously funny but COMPLETE fabrication and I am surprised to hear that from you of all people. Snadianvian poodles are world wide known as fantastic specimens and some breeders in CA who DID import the stock had superb puppies produced over the past decade LOL 

The coat in which dogs were shown in Europe has nothing to do with "bad legs" LMAO !!! 

*Secreto * - lets not "humanize" dogs LOL - comparing what people do to themselves to "feel better" has nothing to do with cosmetic or structural alternations of dogs in a show ring ; ) . I am glad you like the more natural look of a white poolde : ))) !


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Poodlepal said:


> I have shown rabbits for 10 years and let me tell you the amount of cheating that goes on there can rival any in the dog world. I never cheated showing rabbits, be it plucking a white hair out of a black (a fault) or coloring a toe nail (a DQ) or keeping my rabbits in toy less hutches just to save coat and to keep them from rubbing a bald spot. I won with my rabbits and felt proud about it. I stopped showing when the breed I loved started to change physically. [/COLOR]


(Puts on TEFLON jacket!)
It must be really hard to train those rabbits to run in a circle and stack like that! I have never shown rabbits tho, so I sure don't want to give input pr appear like some sort of an expert on something I have never done!

How long u been showing dogs, purple?[/QUOTE]



I remember a program that was on about showing rabbits. From what I recall they go straight from a cage to a table and thats it. There is no moving a rabbit or presenting it like you do a dog. It was very different. 

Im curious if it goes beyond what that program showed though...purple poodle???


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

Kpoos: Usually if it is a typical weekend two day show, you break down the hairspray after show 1 by using a stand dryer, some grooming spray and gently brushing under the heat of the dryer. The combination of factors helps break down the spray. You get out as much spray as possible without destroying the hair. After day 2, you take the dog home to bathe it out. If the show is 3 days or more, you may decide to bathe after the second or third day to freshen the coat and remove all that spray build up. It gets really icky after a couple of days.

Specials are treated differently. They are generally bathed (their neck hair and topknot only) after each show and then heavily conditioned. Their hair is treated like gold.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

wishpoo said:


> *FUR ELITE* _ that is exactly the point I was trying to make all of this time - WHY put dogs and owners /breeders through such ordeals - why not having dog shown in its "natural" coat when it is soooo beautiful to begin with ??? Why spend hours and hours on superficial and ARTIFICIAL elements ??? It would be fair more to the dog and the people participating !
> 
> *Cbrand* - I think that your statement about "bad legs" in Scandinavina dogs is really hilariously funny but COMPLETE fabrication and I am surprised to hear that from you of all people. Snadianvian poodles are world wide known as fantastic specimens and some breeders in CA who DID import the stock had superb puppies produced over the past decade LOL
> 
> ...


Did I imply something I didnt realize? lol Im not sure what I compared about humans to "feel better" to a show dog. Im being serious though.


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

Oh, and no you don't do it in the hotel. Generally the shows that are 3 or more days have bathing stations set up. You will see that in San Antonio if you make it to their big show. They will be along a side or back wall.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

One of these days. Gah I can't imagine bathing my dog up and down 3 days in a row. Lots of work ahead.


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

The work never stops. You spend hours getting the dog ready (I like to allow 2 or 3), 5 minutes in the ring, and hours breaking the dog down so that you can just repeat the process the next day. And that is just the shows. I am not counting the hours during the week spent maintaining or the hours the day before bathing, shaving, scissoring. That is why it truly is a labor of love. Think of doing it for your one dog. Then think of a handler who is toting around 7. Then there is feeding, potty breaks and general care.....this is just for the dog. Then you worry about yourself.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Which is why one dog is just plenty for me. I cannot imagine having a life outside of dogs if you have more than 2 showing dogs at a time.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Secreto - sorry LOL - might be I misunderstood something - so many posts in this thread :doh: :vroam:


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

> Cbrand - I think that your statement about "bad legs" in Scandinavina dogs is really hilariously funny but COMPLETE fabrication and I am surprised to hear that from you of all people. Snadianvian poodles are world wide known as fantastic specimens and some breeders in CA who DID import the stock had superb puppies produced over the past decade LOL


I said BAD FEET. They tend to be long and flat. Totally true. Ask around. It is a result of the trim. The trim covers the feet and they just don't get judged very well. Out of sight... out of mind.

The same thing was true here in the US before our trim was modified to show the feet below the bracelets.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I said BAD FEET. They tend to be long and flat. Totally true. Ask around. It is a result of the trim. The trim covers the feet and they just don't get judged very well. Out of sight... out of mind.
> 
> The same thing was true here in the US before our trim was modified to show the feet below the bracelets.


Ahh so if big hair is hiding flaws you are going to end up with some issues later?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

SECRETO said:


> Did I imply something I didnt realize? lol Im not sure what I compared about humans to "feel better" to a show dog. Im being serious though.





KPoos said:


> Ahh so if big hair is hiding flaws you are going to end up with some issues later?


Absolutely! Look at the bad fronts and over-done rears. I bet very, very few people breed for long ear leathers.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Absolutely! Look at the bad fronts and over-done rears. I bet very, very few people breed for long ear leathers.


Why would they need to if they can just grow out hair to compensate the look? With tons of hair you can sculpt the dog to look anyway you want. I watched a youtube video of a woman showing how to sculpt more "rear" on her dog with clippers and combs. She was working on a show coat which I know is a big no no but when she was done the rear looked really good but it was all hair and good grooming.:rolffleyes:


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

As said earlier, the poodle is an artificial breed in the ring. There are many judges, however, who aren't afraid to put their hands in the hair and feel what's underneath. You can tell a real poodle judge that way. The ones that are more "group" judges (not specialized in poodles) are afraid to put their hands in the hair. I am not sure they would know what to look for once their hands were in there anyway.....


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

SECRETO said:


> Just because I decided to brighten up her white a little more and touch up a spot on her nose doesnt mean my dog wasnt presentable. We showed her completely untouched before too. It just depended on what I had time for before we went in the ring.
> 
> You and I purple poodle will run around and around justifying why we think the way we do. Im not interested in doing that again on this thread. I am sorry that stuff like this dicourages you from showing dogs (you mentioned that in a previous thread before). Chalk, nose black and some coat oil seems pitty compared to the cosmetic procedures people choose to do that are a much bigger concern....well in my opinion atleast.


We do butt heads a lot don't we? I will show dogs one day and you can bet they will be un-enhanced 



> (Puts on TEFLON jacket!)
> It must be really hard to train those rabbits to run in a circle and stack like that! I have never shown rabbits tho, so I sure don't want to give input pr appear like some sort of an expert on something I have never done!
> 
> How long u been showing dogs, purple?


Rabbits just don't sit there like you want them too, it takes training and hard work to get them to "pose" on the table. There are breeds of rabbits that have to run the table and stack. I never said I was an expert but I have done a lot of research on showing dogs and showed in 4-H showman ship and obedience for 5 years. So I'll just leave you with a **** you and have a nice day. 



> I remember a program that was on about showing rabbits. From what I recall they go straight from a cage to a table and thats it. There is no moving a rabbit or presenting it like you do a dog. It was very different.
> 
> Im curious if it goes beyond what that program showed though...purple poodle???


Like I said above it takes training, just like the dogs have to be taught to stack and gait rabbits just don't come out of the nest box calm and ready to show. Being a pray animal its stressful for a rabbit if its not conditioned to showing. I have seen quite a few rabbit whom have bitten, scratched, and other wise harmed (even rabbits who bolted off the table) judges when being shown. I had a friend who raised Belgian Hare'sand it takes months to get them to learn how to stand like they are suppose to.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Purple, you don't have to explain yourself to anyone. You'll end up going round and round in circles trying to get some people to understand you and then they will still pretend to not understand you so that they can twist their words around and play games. It's all very silly.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

So I'll just leave you with a **** you and have a nice day. 



Wow! You all jump all over me for leaving jokes and funny icons that are provided on this board for use. I didn't realize hurling obsceneties at peope was acceptable behavior here. Even this is below my level! Nicely done! Way to show your true colors! Bravo! With spunk like that, you will should be a cinch in the ring. Though it is quite a bit different than 4H where I am sure that type of language would get you ejected.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> So I'll just leave you with a **** you and have a nice day.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! You all jump all over me for leaving jokes and funny icons that are provided on this board for use. I didn't realize hurling obsceneties at peope was acceptable behavior here. Even this is below my level! Nicely done! Way to show your true colors! Bravo! With spunk like that, you will should be a cinch in the ring. Though it is quite a bit different than 4H where I am sure that type of language would get you ejected.


It think you should just leave Poodlepal.

I have not been part of this discussion, but all I have seen is you pick holes in people just to aggravate them.
Please, just either leave or stop being such a twat


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> Wow! You all jump all over me for leaving jokes and funny icons that are provided on this board for use. I didn't realize hurling obsceneties at peope was acceptable behavior here. Even this is below my level! Nicely done! Way to show your true colors! Bravo! With spunk like that, you will should be a cinch in the ring. Though it is quite a bit different than 4H where I am sure that type of language would get you ejected.


Most of your replies on this forum have been extremely sarcastic where you're insulting people with a smile on your face. =/ It's extremely rude.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Yeah I didn't really like the accusations that I some how did something to cause the puppy to bite me or that I wanted to become some BYB. When I was accused of getting him from a puppymill that was sort of over the line yet it still didn't end there, it kept going and going like the Energizer bunny.


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## CanineDesigns (Nov 11, 2009)

I have been trying to gather information about poodles from this site and I find there are many comments on many threads that are borderline rude BUT I think Purple Poodle's comment crossed the line in a BIG WAY!! 

I am a newbie and don't post alot but I felt this really needed to be addressed. How are newbie's supposed to want to join in if people are making rude comments like that.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think it's just time to lock this thread. It's so long now that there's no way to keep up.


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

NOOOOOOO! I haven't had a chance to put in my two cents lol. 

Whoever brought up rabbits, no its not alot of training, you just have to handle them and get them used to it for breed/fur classes. Showmanship requires a pretty calm rabbit, or one that is used to being handled anyway, as there is a move to turn the rabbit on its back ( I too showed in 4-H and ARBA ) 


I do "cheat" as does anyone who hairsprays a topknot, applies more than 3 rubberbands ect ect. 
I have never had a dog with a winter/snow nose so I haven't had to deal with it. 

I have a male who pees on his front bracelets, so he wears sleevies, but sometimes my husband forgets to put them on...he gets stains. 

By bleaching him I am not altering his color, just removing stains. 

If I had a Cafe Au Lait dog and was dying him dark brown, THEN I would be misrepresenting the color. 
until white and yellow becomes and accepted color pattern im going to have to use the sleevies and bleach. 


the main thing is its handlers who's bread and butter is WINNING with their charges. 
If they don't win, they dont get clients, no clients no job. 
If you just want to slowly work on a title, and just have fun with your dog, then go for it. If you have a good dog the judge is going to know that, and you will get whats coming to you.  


you can see the creme poodle in the scandinavian clip's rat feet, pretty gnarly :0 



as long as there are people showing animals or themselves, there will be cheating. its the way it is and you either accept that some people do it or you let it eat away at you until you are bitter and grow to hate showing. 
Ultimately you need to make a game plan and run with it. go out and have fun, who cares if you are laughed at? Does it make you love your dog less? it shouldn't and if it does then you need to be involved in a different sport.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

wishpoo said:


> Secreto - sorry LOL - might be I misunderstood something - so many posts in this thread :doh: :vroam:


lol...no problem. Im all big and pregnant right now and sometimes I forget things I said just a few minutes ago. I seem to get that way during pregnancy for some reason. lol


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

KPoos said:


> Why would they need to if they can just grow out hair to compensate the look? With tons of hair you can sculpt the dog to look anyway you want. I watched a youtube video of a woman showing how to sculpt more "rear" on her dog with clippers and combs. She was working on a show coat which I know is a big no no but when she was done the rear looked really good but it was all hair and good grooming.:rolffleyes:


Ive seen that video before too. However, no dog will be perfect. The fact of the matter is that each dog has qualities about them that are better then others....meaning that poodle may have a great head and front but lacked rear angles. So she clipped the dog to make the rear look more angulated. Doesnt mean the dog isnt good enough to show right? 

If she is able to title the dog and use it in a breeding program the right thing to do is breed it to a bitch/stud that has good rear angles and compliments the dog in other area's too. Some lines lack rear angles but have great fronts and heads and the opposite etc. Thats why breeders are always working to perfect there lines and bring different lines in that have something they need. 

No such thing as a perfect dog but we all hope we will have one that is as close to the breed standard as possible.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Oh yeah sure clip a dog to make it look it's best, I agree with you. Nothing is perfect no matter how hard you try and honestly that's probably where a lot of the health issues come from. You breed for correct "type" and then you are just focusing on one thing.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Ha ha Secreto - soooo... should I run to the pharmacy LMAO and buy that "stick" thingy ha ha. JK JK - BUT, I am so forgetful lately and I also "mix" nouns when I talk -I find it hilarious and laugh at myself on a daily bases ha ha - I guess it is fun to be with "myself" LAMO. Anyways - I think that reason for my "senility" is high stress :smow: and would rather be "huge" ; )

Yes, that is completely true of how it goes - one has to find the best possible match between the Sire and the a Dam - 2 dogs that complement each other in size, structure, temperament and health issues to produce the best possible combo of genes for THAT particular pair and hope that one or 2 pups would show improvement in whatever was a "not so perfect" to begin with. 

No matter how hard it is to pay attention to allll aspects of each dog - it is imperative to do so - or the final result would be puppies that might get that almost perfect "angulation" and crappy temperament and/or seizure problems etc. .

To go full circle now LOL - that is why it is soooo important not to "cheat" in any of those areas (health testing, structure modifications, temperament issues and so on, and so on) or next generations will start showing more and more faults or diseases pooping up in the new lines . 

It is in the interest of a the breed as well as breeders and owners. 

So yeah CHEEERS to that :tea:


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

So back to the original motivation TO WIN. whether it be in the showring or in the whelping box. I personally do not think it is cheating to groom your dog to enhance Such as cutting in angle. if the jusdge does not feel the dogs conformation then the jusdge is cheating not the handler. I have a problem with the wiggie things tho


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I have to agree - how will somebody cut the hair is one thing and "adding" stuff or coloring hair is another. It is judges job to "feel the dog" all over and check for correctness . 

Otherwise, all heavily coated breeds of dogs would be just a mess "underneath" LOL which is absolutely not the case !!!!


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

it's such a fine line- i'm ok with SOME things- but not others? i show aussies- and had a breeder almost fall over backwards when she heard i wasn't chalking my tri... (well but it ads so much bone!) I HAD TWO other breeders congradulate me for not cheating. Now how did that result? i came home iwth RWB one show and nada under the two other judges. Now that said? i did have gel and hairspray in the coat- and used kolesterol on the legs. 

Personaly- chalk- i'm not against- it's a white spot it's white- whites (in my breed) don't breed 'less white' however i am against dying a nose etc. I'm not against using color enhancing shampoos- but dying is over the top IMO. i'm not against hair spray and gel- but think wigs is rediculous. It's one thing to take what the dog HAS and work wtih it- it's another thing to ADD to the dog. 

Krystl - who most likely will be chalking the snot out of her aussie next show


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

SECRETO said:


> I totally agree with that. I remember a person we used to associate with had a beautiful female puppy but by 6 months, her bite went bad. He was actually considering putting braces on this dog and found a person who would do it. Thankfully he came to his senses and had her spayed and placed in a pet home but I couldnt believe he was considering it.
> 
> Also people have procedures done like having the ligement cut that is responsible for the dog carrying its tail high or over the back. ( Im sorry but I dont know exactly what that procedure is called) Some breeds arent supposed to carry a tail over its back and I personally know this is done often. Cosmetic stuff like actually dyeing the coat, braces for a bite, a fake testicle added, extentions etc is over board and I agree should not be acceptable.


Sometimes it's not the ligament but rather a poor job of docking the tail. There are some who go back to the vet and take one or two more "notches" of the tail bone out. It's because the skin grew to tight so it's holding the tail curled to relieve the skin pressure.

As for all the "Stuff" added to enhance the poodle or any breed for that matter. The PARENT club of the Breed is solely responsible. It's not AKC or the majority. It's the few that control the parent clubs that influence and teach the judges what is "acceptable" in the ring. It's rules not being "policed" either. In some of the UKC meets you'll find AKC folks using product like hairspray. If no one steps up and calls these people on it then how are the judges to know? Just like schools, "GET INVOLVED" with the parent clubs. The only way to make a change is to challenge the status quo.


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