# Looking to buy a teacup multi-poo



## Pytheis (Sep 17, 2019)

Multi-poo? Do you mean a Maltese/poodle mix? You won’t find a reputable breeder for such a dog. They simply don’t exist because no reputable breeder purposefully breeds mixed breed dogs. I would definitely avoid buying a puppy online. Have you looked at rescues in your area? They always have mixed breed dogs available to adopt.

Also, in case you haven’t come across it in your research yet, teacup poodles are not a thing, and again, no reputable breeder would breed a teacup poodle. The sizes are toy, mini, and standard. Someone with more knowledge than me will have to inform me if Canada also includes the Moyen size.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

You would probably have best luck aiming for pure Maltese or pure Poodle, whichever breed is your preference. Top notch breeders are generally looking to produce the next generation of really nice puppies within their chosen breed. Crossbreds are incompatible with that goal, so you will rarely find a crossbred coming out of a really good breeder's kennel. 

I think a lot of casual pet owners mistakenly think toys and teacups are the same thing. A teacup is actually the small end of the toy size. It's not an official classification, but everyone knows what it means. A top notch breeder would never deliberately aim for teacup size, because the chances of health problems increase as the size gets smaller. So, a top notch breeder is going to aim to produce a good healthy dog within the sweet spot of the toy guidelines. So, look for toy and avoid teacup.


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

Pytheis said:


> Multi-poo? Do you mean a Maltese/poodle mix? You won’t find a reputable breeder for such a dog. They simply don’t exist because no reputable breeder purposefully breeds mixed breed dogs. I would definitely avoid buying a puppy online. Have you looked at rescues in your area? They always have mixed breed dogs available to adopt.
> 
> Also, in case you haven’t come across it in your research yet, teacup poodles are not a thing, and again, no reputable breeder would breed a teacup poodle. The sizes are toy, mini, and standard. Someone with more knowledge than me will have to inform me if Canada also includes the Moyen size.


Hi Pytheis, I meant Toy the very little ones with the teddy bear face. The reason I came to the forum was to educate myself more on this breed and it’s health or even if it’s a good thing. I personally like larger dogs but have been out voted on this. I just don’t want to make a mistake.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome! I agree that your search parameters are going to inevitably lead you to greeders and scammers.

What specifically is your daughter looking for in a companion? How old is she and what sort of dog experience does she have? Will someone be at home during the day? What sort of activities would she like to do with her dog?

I would recommend getting your criteria nailed down and then choosing either a toy poodle or a Maltese—whichever would be a better fit. At that point you can start looking for a breeder that does appropriate health testing on the parents, is passionate about their breed, and isn’t simply looking to get their hands on your money.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

teacup is just a fad term to sell more dogs

the teddy bear face is how a dog is groomed


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

As far as the teddy bear face goes, that’s simply going to come down to grooming preferences. Poodles can have clean shaved faces, as you see in the show ring. They can have fluffy “chubby” cheeks. The possibilities are endless!



__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/358106607866984498/


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

There are many lovely small companion dogs. Poodles are, of course, the best , but it's well worth checking out some of the other small breeds such as Bichon Frise, Maltese, Shih Tzu, Papillon, Havanese, etc. The Canadian Kennel Club has some resources: The Puppy List


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Welcome! I agree that your search parameters are going to inevitably lead you to greeders and scammers.
> 
> What specifically is your daughter looking for in a companion? How old is she and what sort of dog experience does she have? Will someone be at home during the day? What sort of activities would she like to do with her dog?
> 
> I would recommend getting your criteria nailed down and then choosing either a toy poodle or a Maltese—whichever would be a better fit. At that point you can start looking for a breeder that does appropriate health testing on the parents, is passionate about their breed, and isn’t simply looking to get their hands on your money.


Hi PeggyTheParti, she’s 8 so I’ll be the one looking after the dog primarily. That’s why I wanted a German Shepard. I’ve always loved that breed. I feel it will be too big for my daughter to handle. So we went down the rabbit hole of searching for dogs. I don’t want to make such a big commitment without thoroughly researching the breed. Came across those multese/poodle mixes and she fell in love and I caved. I can tell from my interaction with some of these breeders that I’d have a better chance getting the prince of Nigeria’s money over receiving my tea cup. I do like the Maltese frise also


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

JimmyD said:


> Hi PeggyTheParti, she’s 8 so I’ll be the one looking after the dog primarily. That’s why I wanted a German Shepard. I’ve always loved that breed. I feel it will be too big for my daughter to handle. So we went down the rabbit hole of searching for dogs. I don’t want to make such a big commitment without thoroughly researching the breed. Came across those multese/poodle mixes and she fell in love and I caved. I can tell from my interaction with some of these breeders that I’d have a better chance getting the prince of Nigeria’s money over receiving my tea cup. I do like the Maltese frise also


Sorry and I work from home and so does my wife. So we will be around to take care of the puppy. We do like to travel but that’s on hold and most of our travel is to the cottage and back in Ontario.


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

cowpony said:


> There are many lovely small companion dogs. Poodles are, of course, the best , but it's well worth checking out some of the other small breeds such as Bichon Frise, Maltese, Shih Tzu, Papillon, Havanese, etc. The Canadian Kennel Club has some resources: The Puppy List


Thanks Cowpony, I’ll look into those breeds as well. Appreciate all the help. You guys are a very active group good to see


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

JimmyD said:


> Hi PeggyTheParti, she’s 8 so I’ll be the one looking after the dog primarily. That’s why I wanted a German Shepard. I’ve always loved that breed. I feel it will be too big for my daughter to handle. So we went down the rabbit hole of searching for dogs. I don’t want to make such a big commitment without thoroughly researching the breed. Came across those multese/poodle mixes and she fell in love and I caved. I can tell from my interaction with some of these breeders that I’d have a better chance getting the prince of Nigeria’s money over receiving my tea cup. I do like the Maltese frise also


I’m a Shepherd fan, too! Marvellous dogs. Toy breeds can be quite fragile, so that’s something to keep in mind as you narrow down your choices.

What is it about crosses that appeals to you more than purebred toy breeds? If it’s just appearance, I wouldn’t get too hung up on that. Maltese, Bichons, poodles.... They all have very versatile coats that can be groomed to suit your preferences.

With mixes, you’ll be very unlikely to find a breeder who is working to better the physical and mental health of their dogs. And a lot of the traits they seem to promote (like long backs in poodle mixes) come with the risk of chronic pain or worse.

(I speak from experience, by the way. My last girl was a poodle mix. I had her DNA tested in her senior years and she wasn’t even the mix she was told to me as. That’s not all that unusual. She was a wonderful girl who should have lived much longer than she did.)


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I'm not a huge fan of letting kids chose breeds.

Consider maybe a slightly larger dog than a toy, which I think are pretty fragile. Perhaps a mini poodle (15-20 lbs)? You could get a white one for a similar look to a maltipoo. Small enough your daughter can handle it, but a bit sturdier for adventures. 

I suggest looking at the pinned posts at the top of this subforim here Finding the Right Puppy & Breeder

One member has made a list of breeders who appear reputable, and there are Ontario listings. Of course,do your due diligence. See here: 









🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

A minipoo would enjoy cottage getaways! Poodles are very athletic, natural retrievers, and often quite water-oriented. They’re big dogs that can come in a range of packages. Love ‘em.

P.S. Oh how I miss Ontario camping and cottages. Sigh...


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I had a toy poodle when my girls were young and it was the right choice for us. My daughters were very gentle, well behaved and not very boisterous . However a toy poodle or other small dog is the wrong size for many children who are more boisterous or loud etc. it’s important to be honest about what kind of child your daughter is in choosing the size and breed of dog.

I hope you plan to include your daughter in training your puppy. I teach dog sports and I’ve had several children train. It was a joy to watch them with their dogs.


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

Skylar said:


> I had a toy poodle when my girls were young and it was the right choice for us. My daughters were very gentle, well behaved and not very boisterous . However a toy poodle or other small dog is the wrong size for many children who are more boisterous or loud etc. it’s important to be honest about what kind of child your daughter is in choosing the size and breed of dog.
> 
> I hope you plan to include your daughter in training your puppy. I teach dog sports and I’ve had several children train. It was a joy to watch them with their dogs.


We only have one right now. May have another child we’ll see. She’s a quiet and well behaved kid. That said she’ll help take care of the dog but “ daddy had to pick up the poo” so I’m okay with that lol. Girls tend to be better with dogs than young boys. My brother terrorized my poor cat when I was younger poor thing  but it would get some good scratched in so all good  We’ve been watching youtube training videos and my sister has 2 German Shepard husky mixes. So she’s been around large dogs also and been good with them.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Something to consider about small toys is that some are prone to hypoglycemia. Many reputable toy breeders won't sell a toy puppy before 10-12 weeks for this reason, and even afterwards it is important to watch the dog for symptoms. 

When I was a kid I had two dogs in the the 14" range. It was a perfect size for me. The dogs were large enough to handle stairs, jumping off furniture, and lots of playing with me. They were small enough I could walk them myself and lift them into the car if needed.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Do you spend a lot of time with your sister and her dogs? If so, I’d lean towards a larger, sturdier breed. The risk of accidental injury would be too high. A larger mini maybe, or a standard poodle.

I’d also consider your approach to training. What sort of videos are resonating with you? Poodles are sensitive, intelligent dogs, who require a steady but gentle hand. Your preferred training style might help lead you to the right breed for your family.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Think ahead 12-15 years. Your daughter will be a grown woman long before the life expectancy of a Poodle goes by. Make sure you get what is right for your entire family, not just your 8 year old daughter.


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Do you spend a lot of time with your sister and her dogs? If so, I’d lean towards a larger, sturdier breed. The risk of accidental injury would be too high. A larger mini maybe, or a standard poodle.
> 
> I’d also consider your approach to training. What sort of videos are resonating with you? Poodles are sensitive, intelligent dogs, who require a steady but gentle hand. Your preferred training style might help lead you to the right breed for your family.


My sister recommend Zak George on YouTube I’ve been watching him and like his methods. Now with COVID we don’t see her that much. We do get together often, in the summer primarily. I agree this god will be mine probably in her teenage years. That’s why I was leaning toward the Shepherd  wife doesn’t want a big dog in the house.


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

JimmyD said:


> My sister recommend Zak George on YouTube I’ve been watching him and like his methods. Now with COVID we don’t see her that much. We do get together often, in the summer primarily. I agree this god will be mine probably in her teenage years. That’s why I was leaning toward the Shepherd  wife doesn’t want a big dog in the house.


Dog not god lol spell check grrr


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

JimmyD said:


> Hi Pytheis, I meant Toy the very little ones with the teddy bear face. The reason I came to the forum was to educate myself more on this breed and it’s health or even if it’s a good thing. I personally like larger dogs but have been out voted on this. I just don’t want to make a mistake.


Hi there, welcome!
I just wanted to let you know something about toys from personal experience since it looks like you may be looking to buy a very small toy for a child. They are so incredibly fragile! They have tiny little limbs and as puppies, are like little skeletons running around. With the puppies, every day you’ll think “please don’t get hurt, please don’t get hurt” and you have to watch them like a hawk because they can crawl into the smallest places, get under foot, easily break a bone, or even have a blood sugar crash in a flash. Out in the world too, its so scary having to protect your toy from other dogs, children, and even over-excited adults who could seriously hurt them. If I accidentally dropped my dog or stepped on him too hard I would definitely seriously injure and possibly kill him. Add to this that he is lightning fast and moves silently, and it can get reeeally nerve wracking! As an adult, I can carry all those rules and stresses in my head and still enjoy my toy but IMHO even the most careful child or teen would struggle. If you can convince your family at all, I would lean to a sturdier dog something at least 10 lbs and muscular, like a miniature or better yet small standard poodle. I think in the long run a child would have a lot more fun with a less delicate pup. Also consider life expectancy, my other toy breed dog is 16 years old and has absolutely no signs that she will pass anytime soon so as someone said above, make sure you reeeeally want this dog because your daughter probably won’t be able to take it to a college campus 😊.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome to PF!

The thing to remember about cross breeds is that cross breeds started with purebreds. That doesn't necessarily mean _well bred_.

Conscientious breeders are always working to improve the breed they focus on in their program. They will not knowingly allow any pups they've worked so hard to bring the best qualities to, to be sold out to someone who's mixing breeds. This is why you'll see few well bred dogs of either cross in the mix.

Then there's the matter of health. Every purebred has a set of known heritable conditions which means that proper testing by breed and variety should be, and is done, by conscientious breeders to try to remove those conditions from their line and future dogs.

Cross breeding complicates matters by increasing the potential heritable conditions to those of each breed. Cross breeders aren't usually doing testing.

To top things, they typically charge as much or more for their puppies as a breeder who's invested time and money to bring the best possible example of the breed they love to life.

Here's some tips for you in researching and finding a conscientious breeder. Where it says "poodle" just substitute your preferred breed.

Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

Read any available contracts very carefully. Is the breeder ruling out coverage for health issues that the parents could have been tested for?

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021-2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.

When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.
Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies. Many poodle colors change thru their lives.
Temperament is lifelong trait.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".

An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of *___* (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my personal criteria (I have another more detailed but just this for now):

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come. Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is _well bred. _


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


The Breeder List isn't a complete list so be sure to look at the Multi listings too. Every name on the list has been recommended by a PF member or several, or I have found them by searching thru websites for breeders that the recommended breeder also recommends. Then I went to every website and/or the OFA site and/or a general internet search to verify any health testing done. I only did this initially, before adding them to the list. It's up to the seeker to verify the breeders current standing.

Definitely use the Poodle Clubs for breeder referral too.

-----------

In my life, the miniature poodle was our Goldilocks "just right". We'd had a beautiful boxer who was just too big for my 18m old little brother, a wonderful somekindofterrier who was just too much of a terrier for our family, then when I was 10 and my brother was 7, the most amazing dog came into our lives, a miniature poodle we named Mimi. It's been poodles forever since then for me. Even my non-dog loving husband became a convert.

When it was time to add to our family again, he said "let's take two". Twice 

(not recommended for novices or the faint of heart, fyi)


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

If you like herdy-type dogs, but want a smaller package, there are several options I can think of, including Pembroke and Cardigan Corgi, Swedish Valhund, Norwegian Buhund, and Icelandic Sheepdog. All smaller than a GSD, but all sturdy dogs that can take a fair amount of rough and tumble.


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## 5girls1guy&apoodle (Jun 12, 2016)

A child will adore and love any puppy they are given even if it’s not the one they had in mind. I can’t imagine any child being disappointed when they are holding the actual dog. I think there are some households that can manage tiny dogs even with children, and some that can’t. I have girls and they have been raised to be extremely gentle. I’m a stay at home mom, and am always supervising. Only you know if your household can manage the needs of a toy dog. Miniature poodles are still small, and very cute if you wanted something in between. Poodles are excellent dogs and great with kids in my opinion. It was one of the things that drew me to the breed in the first place. I always say we should have named my standard Nana because she stays with the children like a nanny. When they are playing outside she just wants to follow them around, and when they are playing in their rooms she just wants to lay on the floor beside them. Poodles are smart so they would be easier to train than some other breeds in my opinion. They don’t shed, they are hypoallergenic and they don’t have the typical doggy smell. Most poodles have a decent life span. And the teddy bear look your daughter fell in love with is completely possible with a poodle. It doesn’t need to be mixed with another breed to get it. They have so many colors too, black, white, silver, red, apricot, cream, brown, and even more.


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

The claim that there is no good breeders of cross bred dogs is a false claim. I know many people that do the recommended testing on all breeding dogs. Provide all proper documentation for their puppies. I know a few people of CKC registered dogs and I wouldn’t cross the street to get one free. A piece of paper doesn’t mean anything if the dogs got issues. I don’t know what your children are like? A sensitive breed like Toy Poodle or Maltese might not be the best breed. Also stay away from anything called Tea cup. Many times they have health issues.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Darling Darla said:


> The claim that there is no good breeders of cross bred dogs is a false claim


I've read back thru the posts here and not finding that anyone said "none". "Few" has been mentioned.
Part of the difficulty in being accounted as a conscientious breeder when cross breeding is because there is no breed standard to be met. Simply mixing two (or more) different purebred dogs doesn't create a breed. Creating a reliably genetically reproducible breed takes many generations of careful husbandry.There is a group, the AALA, trying to do that. https://alaa-labradoodles.com/https://alaa-labradoodles.com/



Darling Darla said:


> I know many people that do the recommended testing on all breeding dogs.


Proper testing for breed and variety are a start and an indicator but is not the single identifier of a conscientious breeder. 



Darling Darla said:


> Provide all proper documentation for their puppies.


I'm not clear what documentation on puppies you could be referring to. If the puppy is a cross it can't be registered with a purebred registry such as the AKC or Canadian Kennel Club because it's not a purebred so there is no documentation there to be had. 

Puppies aren't phenotype or genotype tested for OFA level testing so there is no documentation there to be had. 

They should be vet checked and given appropriate preventatives. That documentation should be provided.




Darling Darla said:


> I know a few people of CKC registered dogs and I wouldn’t cross the street to get one free.


We agree here.


Rose n Poos said:


> Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is _well bred._





Darling Darla said:


> Also stay away from anything called Tea cup. Many times they have health issues.


Agreed here as well


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

A tale of two Phantoms.... Standard and Toy,
The breeder with the Toy was getting out of breeding. He told me they were 'too fragile'.


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I've read back thru the posts here and not finding that anyone said "none". "Few" has been mentioned.
> Part of the difficulty in being accounted as a conscientious breeder when cross breeding is because there is no breed standard to be met. Simply mixing two (or more) different purebred dogs doesn't create a breed. Creating a reliably genetically reproducible breed takes many generations of careful husbandry.There is a group, the AALA, trying to do that. https://alaa-labradoodles.com/https://alaa-labradoodles.com/
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t understand why everything I post is in need of further discussion? Anyways I will answer your question. I know breeders of crosses that have two separate breeds and spend lots of time and money for testing and produce lovely crossed dogs. My poodles are not registered although they could have been. My poodles are from CKC show breeders. The politics behind all registered animals is not something to continue discussing. The reputable breeders are not as honest as they should be. Bottom line is buyer beware.


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

Thanks again, you have all given me a lot of insight and help to make an educated decision. I will be looking for something more sturdier. While I know my daughter will be gentle with it the last thing I need is our first puppy to have health issues or be breaking bones. I want my daughter to have a fun companion that she can play with. While knowing full well I'll be the primary caregiver and owner of the dog later. I'll take a closer look at a standard poodle and some of the other medium sized breed mentioned up to 30lbs. Or try and sneak in a shepherd and deal with the unhappy wife/ life scenario hahahah. Thanks again everyone and I'll post an update when my new family member shows up. I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions. I'm very happy I found this forum.


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

JimmyD said:


> Thanks again, you have all given me a lot of insight and help to make an educated decision. I will be looking for something more sturdier. While I know my daughter will be gentle with it the last thing I need is our first puppy to have health issues or be breaking bones. I want my daughter to have a fun companion that she can play with. While knowing full well I'll be the primary caregiver and owner of the dog later. I'll take a closer look at a standard poodle and some of the other medium sized breed mentioned up to 30lbs. Or try and sneak in a shepherd and deal with the unhappy wife/ life scenario hahahah. Thanks again everyone and I'll post an update when my new family member shows up. I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions. I'm very happy I found this forum.


If interested in the standard poodles there are also Moyen poodle that are not as big. They are between the miniature poodle and standard.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Jimmy I have miniature poodles right now. For gentle children they are a good choice because they are sturdier than toys but don’t take up as much room as standards. They are athletic and enjoy hikes, romps at the beach and take only one car seat in the car. Consider both miniature and standard poodles in your consideration.

Darling Darla mentioned Moyen, also known as medium or Klein sized poodles. This is a size not recognized in the USA or Canada and therefore are often used as a marketing term by unethical breeders. In some 98 countries , mostly in Europe they belong to the FCI (like our AKC) and they have 4 sizes of poodle. Moyens are a category that has larger minipoos and smaller spoos. My AKC minipoo would be a Moyen size in FCI. There’s only a handful of breeders in the States breeding quality Moyen size from imported FCI parents.


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

I have a little tiny secret 🤫 I know that Moyen poodle is being used for improving the miniature poodle. My Sofie is a product of this project. Miniature/Moyen poodle


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Darling Darla said:


> I have a little tiny secret 🤫 I know that Moyen poodle is being used for improving the miniature poodle. My Sofie is a product of this project. Miniature/Moyen poodle


Improve them how? Why? Most miniature poodles from good kennels are sturdy, healthy, active dogs. They are easy to train, clean, do not shed (not quite true - you do have to brush out the dog at least once a week to get rid of hair that has been shed - but it's not like dogs that shed hair all over the floor and furniture!)

The "moyen" size is not recognized by either the CKC or the AKC. These are simply oversize miniatures or undersize standards! Great pets, just not appropriate for the show ring. Anyone in those two countries who is promoting moyen poodles is akin to the people who promote teacup poodles. They are just trying to cash in on a fad.

I had toy poodles when my children were as young as 4. We also had a German shepherd at that time. Children and dogs all played together quite well. It just depends on the child.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

@JimmyD Miniature poodles are the size of my childhood dogs, that sweet spot of being large enough to handle a bit of adventure and small enough to be portable. In your shoes Miniature is the size I would be looking for.

Since this thread started as a request for teacup sized dogs, I assume Moyen sized is probably going to be getting into the range your wife might call "big dog."


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Yeah keep in mind that miniatures in FCI size are rather small, max 35cm from toes to shoulders. I suspect that a lot of the american miniatures actually are moyen by FCI standards. 

@Johanna what are the preferred size in the AKC show ring for miniatures?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

JimmyD said:


> Thanks again, you have all given me a lot of insight and help to make an educated decision. I will be looking for something more sturdier. While I know my daughter will be gentle with it the last thing I need is our first puppy to have health issues or be breaking bones. I want my daughter to have a fun companion that she can play with. While knowing full well I'll be the primary caregiver and owner of the dog later. I'll take a closer look at a standard poodle and some of the other medium sized breed mentioned up to 30lbs. Or try and sneak in a shepherd and deal with the unhappy wife/ life scenario hahahah. Thanks again everyone and I'll post an update when my new family member shows up. I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions. I'm very happy I found this forum.


Hope you’ll keep us posted on your progress! If you do decide to go the poodle route, we’ve got lots of resources to help you find the best match for your family. And we looooove puppy pics. 

You’d probably enjoy having a standard poodle, but don’t get sucked in by anyone guaranteeing yours will be small. There’s always the chance you’ll end up with an average sized standard poodle....or bigger. And that could cause tension in your family, which wouldn’t be fun for anyone. I think my girl is pretty wonderful at 45 lbs. She can be lifted, if necessary, with minimal fuss, but she looks much bigger than she is because of her long poodle legs.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

curlflooffan said:


> Yeah keep in mind that miniatures in FCI size are rather small, max 35cm from toes to shoulders. I suspect that a lot of the american miniatures actually are moyen by FCI standards.
> 
> @Johanna what are the preferred size in the AKC show ring for miniatures?


In the USA and Canada miniatures must be 10 to 15 inches. Yes, most miniatures in the US and Canada are moyen size since most are well over 13 inches at the shoulder. Certainly almost all the ones being shown are at the top of the standard. My Zoe is between 14 and 14 1/2, but she looked like a toy compared to her competition. That's one reason we quit showing her in conformation.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Johanna said:


> In the USA and Canada miniatures must be 10 to 15 inches. Yes, most miniatures in the US and Canada are moyen size since most are well over 13 inches at the shoulder. Certainly almost all the ones being shown are at the top of the standard. My Zoe is between 14 and 14 1/2, but she looked like a toy compared to her competition. That's one reason we quit showing her in conformation.


Yeah so its really more accurate to say that there are few true miniatures in the US rather than that there are no true moyens. Your miniatures are more like our mediums. Your 'small girl' is bigger than the biggest male of my breeder in the Netherlands who is 34cm or 13.3 inches. 

We should probably mention that when people come on the forum looking for moyens in America.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Johanna said:


> Improve them how? Why? Most miniature poodles from good kennels are sturdy, healthy, active dogs. They are easy to train, clean, do not shed (not quite true - you do have to brush out the dog at least once a week to get rid of hair that has been shed - but it's not like dogs that shed hair all over the floor and furniture!)
> 
> The "moyen" size is not recognized by either the CKC or the AKC. These are simply oversize miniatures or undersize standards! Great pets, just not appropriate for the show ring. *Anyone in those two countries who is promoting moyen poodles is akin to the people who promote teacup poodles. They are just trying to cash in on a fad.*


IMO, both Moyen and Klein should be left to their own languages... not morphed into English. 
Moyen - French
Klein - German
Mini - English


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This is a bit apples to oranges since size isn't the same thing as recognized variety in the various registries.

I believe that in the UK a toy is up to 11inches for that variety.
That won't make an 11inch miniature in the US or Canada a toy in variety.

There have been changes to variety descriptions in the various international registries and breed standards thru their respective histories. It often feels a bit arbitrary but I'd follow the standards of the country/registry that I'm in.

So in the US and Canada we have miniatures if they're 10-15 inches and standards if they're over 15 inches.

There will be poodles of the medium size but they will not be "recognized" as the medium variety.

With few exceptions, most breeders in the US are using moyen (changed to medium by the FCI years ago) as a marketing term and may also be intervariety breeding to get the size.

This does matter since the different varieties have different health issues. Check VIP and OFA for those. I don't know whether any health issues are specified for testing purposes in the medium variety nor which entity would be respnsible for determining those. Possibly the Poodle Club of France since I think the moyen designation originated with them?

Type is another consideration since I think that's how the dwarf and later the moyen varieties came to be. There have been intervariety breedings at times to improve certain features in one or the other variety but it's currently and generally not well thought of in the fancy.

It makes my head spin sometimes.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

@Rose n Poos lots of intervariety breeding in Europe. Because here the size is what determines the registration. As puppies they usually get registered the same as their parents. But the show dogs get measured in the ring and their registration changed if needed. So if you get a 36 cm offspring from a 33cm and 34cm dwarf parents you can show and breed it as medium instead of dwarf. My pup will have a mixture of toy and dwarf in its pedigree.


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## specie (Feb 27, 2014)

JimmyD said:


> We only have one right now. May have another child we’ll see. She’s a quiet and well behaved kid. That said she’ll help take care of the dog but “ daddy had to pick up the poo” so I’m okay with that lol. Girls tend to be better with dogs than young boys. My brother terrorized my poor cat when I was younger poor thing  but it would get some good scratched in so all good  We’ve been watching youtube training videos and my sister has 2 German Shepard husky mixes. So she’s been around large dogs also and been good with them.


Also, know that either poodle or Maltese will require grooming, which will be an ongoing expense for the life of the dog.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

JimmyD,

I'll second what many others have said about the very fragile tiny dogs. I have had some very small Chihuahuas. The smallest was 2 3/4 pounds at adult weight. We knew she'd be small but not that small! When you have teenie tiny dogs you have added complications everything from the constant protecting them from the world & themselves to blood sugar issues. They are very fragile. For young children I would not get a dog that was going to be in that tiny or 'teacup' size. Get her a nice sturdy Mini Poodle or a Shih Tzu (those little dogs stay playful into their old age. Mine lived to be 17, almost 18 years old & she was a playful pup until she hit 12 & some age issues started showing up). Even a mini Schnauzer. These breeds have the size that you still must treat them well but play is doable

You also realize that it's tricky when you allow a child to choose a dog from pictures & that's going to be your new family member but always keep in mind that no matter what you buy... the pup may grow up to be larger or smaller & may look NOTHING like what she picked in the pictures. I mention this because I've seen kids be heartbroken because they're going to get a (fill in the blank) & the reality of the pup they get & the work it takes to get that look don't match. For example, I am an experienced dog trainer & have a good deal experience selecting puppies but when you are looking at outcrosses (2 breeds mixed together) what is produced in the puppies are not going to be a set type like what you would get with a Poodle. If you buy a Poodle & it's been bred from Poodles generation after generation... you can have an expectation of what you're getting. When it comes to cross bred dogs... you can have variety in type within the same litter.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

curlflooffan said:


> @Rose n Poos lots of intervariety breeding in Europe. Because here the size is what determines the registration. As puppies they usually get registered the same as their parents. But the show dogs get measured in the ring and their registration changed if needed. So if you get a 36 cm offspring from a 33cm and 34cm dwarf parents you can show and breed it as medium instead of dwarf. My pup will have a mixture of toy and dwarf in its pedigree.


Curlfloofflan, did you know that in the USA (and Canada, too, I think) poodles are simply registered as poodles? The variety (size) is not part of the registration. This leaves it up to the buyer to figure out that if you breed to miniatures and the resulting puppy goes over 15 inches, it is considered a standard for the show ring, but a miniature for breeding.


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

Hi Everyone, We found a puppy  it's a Maltese and we are picking it up from Minipups next week. Have any of you dealt with them?


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

picture of her


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Looks like a puppy mill to me.




__ https://www.facebook.com/PeopleAgainstPuppyMillsOntario/posts/1288129977901164




No health testing. The no Sunday call thing is typical southern Ontario Mennonite puppy mill. No pictures of how the dogs are raised. No papers. Many breeds (broker site). No names for the alleged breeders. Lots of mixes. Cutesy pictures. Hits all the puppy mill warning bells for me.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

JimmyD said:


> Hi Everyone, We found a puppy  it's a Maltese and we are picking it up from Minipups next week. Have any of you dealt with them?


Hi Jimmy,

I would be very cautious of this puppy broker. I can only speak to what I see online, but their “health guarantee” is very misleading. Who would return a 5-year-old puppy? Nobody. Therefore, the clause is essentially meaningless.

You want to find a breeder who does appropriate health testing of the dam and sire, to ensure your puppy has the best possible chance at a long, healthy life. Have they been able to provide you with the results of these tests? Can you visit the home of your new puppy, to see where/how it was raised and to ensure the dam and sire are being well cared for?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

(This isn’t intended to rain on your excitement! There are just a lot of scams out there. I want the best for you AND your future puppy. )


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

http://www.kismutt.com/puppy-mills.html











Anyone Hear of Minipups.ca?? - RedFlagDeals.com Forums


Like the Title says, they seem to be pretty reputable, but has anyone actually purchased a puppy from these guys? Thanks in advance!!




forums.redflagdeals.com


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Looks like a puppy mill to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.facebook.com/Minipupsthis is their facebook. Dogs, Puppies, Mini Pups, Teacup Pups for Sale Toronto, GTA is the website seems legita lot of people have bought from them.


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> (This isn’t intended to rain on your excitement! There are just a lot of scams out there. I want the best for you AND your future puppy. )


No problem that's why I'm asking thank you


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Your own Facebook site you can delete any bad reviews. Lots of people buy from puppy mills and are thrilled because their puppy is cute. Always look for reviews from other sources not on the website for the breeder.

What health tests do they have? How old are the parents? Have you met the parents? Seen videos of the puppies playing and their condition?


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Your own Facebook site you can delete any bad reviews. Lots of people are idiots who buy from puppy mills. Always look for reviews from sources not on the website for the breeder.


Easy, FWOP! I know your heart is in the right place and you want to protect JimmyD from ending up with a lemon, but that one sentence could be framed in a way that doesn't imply he falls under the idiot category. We don't know what we don't know, which is why many new members come here.

The most common reason people buy from puppy mills, large commercial breeders or pet shops is they're simply not aware that DNA (and other tests depending on the breed) exist. It's not something we learn in school, and outside of dog social circles, most people think a vet checked a pup and that had it's shots is good for life. A lot of people also have never read about the horrors of many puppy mills, so thanks for the links about Minipups.

JimmyD - if you continue to shop for a Maltese, there are only two basic DNA disease tests for Maltese to determine a testable genetic problem. You can see those *here* in the two tests offered. *Both* sire & dam would have to be carriers for the faulty genes to express and pups to be affected when they get older. The problem with buying from a puppy mill is most never do DNA testing. They just breed a male and female and hope for the best. A good breeder will know if any of his/her dogs are normal, carriers, or affected (meaning it will develop a certain genetic disease in it's life). When dealing with breeders who don't know or worse, don't care, *there's more risk* to the buyer getting a dog with a specific problem which will cost a fortune in vet bills when it gets older. It might turn out just fine, but might not.

At that link, just click on the name of the condition to read more about each condition.










Btw, Paw Print Genetics is an excellent lab to read about the specific genetic conditions for every purebred dog - and *as a group, all *purebreds have certain diseases common to that breed including poodles. So when you talk to breeders, ask if the puppy's parents were tested for these, and insist on seeing proof. A good, knowledgeable breeder won't mind.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Vita said:


> Easy, FWOP! I know your heart is in the right place and you want to protect JimmyD from ending up with a lemon, but that one sentence could be framed in a way that doesn't imply he falls under the idiot category. We don't know what we don't know, which is why many new members come here.
> 
> The most common reason people buy from puppy mills, large commercial breeders or pet shops is they're simply not aware that DNA (and other tests depending on the breed) exist. It's not something we learn in school, and outside of dog social circles, most people think a vet checked a pup and that had it's shots is good for life. A lot of people also have never read about the horrors of many puppy mills, so thanks for the links about Minipups.
> 
> ...


Vita, I edited and changed my wording before you replied


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Based on their website, they look to be either a high volume breeder and/or a broker. Not someone I would buy from, nor recommend to anyone else. The buzzwords of "teacup", and "tiny toy" are not phrases a good breeder would use to describe their dogs. Also, selling them on a first come, first served basis isn't something a good breeder would do.


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

I just txted the breeder with the questions above. He called me right away and answered everything. There are 5 females that they breed once a year. They are all in homes and not Kennels. The males are studs brought in so no inbreeding. The female is 4 years old and they stop breeding the female when they turn 8yrs old. If they ever found allergies or any genetic issues in the puppies they stop breeding that female. He mentioned some issues that they've had in the past. He sounds really good I'm pretty confident to go forward with him. He said that he will fully refund my deposit if I don't feel comfortable on pick up day.


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Your own Facebook site you can delete any bad reviews. Lots of people buy from puppy mills and are thrilled because their puppy is cute. Always look for reviews from other sources not on the website for the breeder.
> 
> What health tests do they have? How old are the parents? Have you met the parents? Seen videos of the puppies playing and their condition?


I've seen a video of the puppies.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

I would want to know what they do with their dogs besides breed them. Five bitches, each having a litter a year, is quite a bit of work. And if they quit breeding them at 8 years old, when do the start? If they start breeding at age two, that's six litters per bitch. 

These are the recommended health tests for Maltese, according to the OFA website. Recommended Tests | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

*Cardiac Evaluation* 
Congenital Cardiac Exam - minimum age 1 year ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam - minimum age 1 year ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation - minimum age 1 year ➚
*Serum Bile Acid Test* 
Although not yet required for CHIC registration, it is recommended that Paired Serum Bile Acid levels be done as an indicator test for liver shunt and microvascular dysplasia (MVD).


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Please make sure you see the parents when you pick up the puppy. Bring a dog savvy friend with you to hold you back if something isn't right- even when I went to get my standard, I brought a relative with me with strict orders to pull me away if there were red flags. All puppies are cute and walking away from a puppy on your own is pretty much impossible. 

Remember - if you sell 1000 puppies (easy to do if you are selling a litter a week!) And 1% of your customers are happy enough to give you a good review, then you have 10 good reviews. They currently show 3 litters available May 8th so imagine the volume. You can't get that volume with 5 females - or even 10 breeders each with 5 females, which is what they claim, even if they breed 2x per year (bad for the dog).

If you can't meet the mother - walk away. If you can't meet the other '5 dogs' - walk away. If the mother appears nervous and doesn't happily meet you, or isn't in good condition - walk away. If the puppies don't run to you and try and climb your legs - walk away. 

Here's one of their videos- notice the puppy is afraid. Adorable puppy, but shies away from the person with the camera. I have seen no evidence any of the puppies in any of the 3 videos I watched had extensive human experience/interaction. If I walked into a room and puppies behaved like that, I would leave. No puppy for me. 





Compare that video to this one, from a standard poodle breeder in Ontario who is very reputable. 





See how the puppies follow her around? If she backs away, they trot after her and attack/nibble her toes, and push each other to get to their person. They are outside, have plenty of toys, etc. 

Puppy mills are a plague in Southern Ontario, especially since the OSPCA's enforcement powers were removed, and it's very easy to fall for them - I know many, many people in the GTA who have - and the dogs they recieved, with health issues costing $10 k + , or afraid and never 'normal'. This breeder is LISTED as a puppy mill by one of the rescues in Ontario (.https://m.facebook.com/kismutt.rescue/ ). I'd suggest you give that rescue a call and see why they have listed Mini Pups as a mill. 

What genetic tests have they ran? What physical tests? 'not inbred' is not enough.


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## JimmyD (Mar 29, 2021)

JimmyD said:


> I just txted the breeder with the questions above. He called me right away and answered everything. There are 5 females that they breed once a year. They are all in homes and not Kennels. The males are studs brought in so no inbreeding. The female is 4 years old and they stop breeding the female when they turn 8yrs old. If they ever found allergies or any genetic issues in the puppies they stop breeding that female. He mentioned some issues that they've had in the past. He sounds really good I'm pretty confident to go forward with him. He said that he will fully refund my deposit if I don't feel comfortable on pick up day.


Its also vaccinated and dewormed


For Want of Poodle said:


> Please make sure you see the parents when you pick up the puppy. Bring a dog savvy friend with you to hold you back if something isn't right- even when I went to get my standard, I brought a relative with me with strict orders to pull me away if there were red flags. All puppies are cute and walking away from a puppy on your own is pretty much impossible.
> 
> Remember - if you sell 1000 puppies (easy to do if you are selling a litter a week!) And 1% of your customers are happy enough to give you a good review, then you have 10 good reviews. They currently show 3 litters available May 8th so imagine the volume. You can't get that volume with 5 females - or even 10 breeders each with 5 females, which is what they claim, even if they breed 2x per year (bad for the dog).
> 
> ...


Thanks again for all the help great community  I'll go see the puppy armed with this advice. My sister has 2 German Sheppard's that were rescue dogs. Unfortunately she can't come out and see the puppy with me. Covid also gives breeders the opportunity to say that we can't see where the puppy stayed but I'll do my best to check the puppy out and make the best decision I can. Thanks for the help and information everyone.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

JimmyD said:


> Its also vaccinated and dewormed
> 
> Thanks again for all the help great community  I'll go see the puppy armed with this advice. My sister has 2 German Sheppard's that were rescue dogs. Unfortunately she can't come out and see the puppy with me. Covid also gives breeders the opportunity to say that we can't see where the puppy stayed but I'll do my best to check the puppy out and make the best decision I can. Thanks for the help and information everyone.


*Don't go* - it's a puppy broker selling puppy mill puppies. You need a well bred dog from a good breeder. If you buy you are only encouraging the mistreatment of puppy mill dogs who are not well cared for and are just a commodity - as long as they push out puppies to sell at the minimum cost and effort. You might find a puppy that turns out to be fine, or you might be buying a heartache of a mess of a dog with expensive physical or mental issues.









Anyone Hear of Minipups.ca?? - RedFlagDeals.com Forums


Like the Title says, they seem to be pretty reputable, but has anyone actually purchased a puppy from these guys? Thanks in advance!!




forums.redflagdeals.com




*
You can do much, much better, you, your wife and your daughter deserve better. *

Covid or no Covid - I saw my new puppy's mother - and his grandmother too although that was an unexpected bonus. I knew it was his mother - the breeder didn't feed him knowing he had a long car ride home and he kept trying to nurse from her. Both adults were friendly, looked well taken care off and loved.


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## IdahoLiving (Jun 20, 2013)

JimmyD said:


> Or try and sneak in a shepherd and deal with the unhappy wife/ life scenario hahahah. Thanks again everyone and I'll post an update when my new family member shows up. I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions. I'm very happy I found this forum.


Think long and hard on the Shepherd idea. I just brought home my third and he is a terror. They really are a lot mouthier than other breeds, and I could see a quiet, easy going child like your daughter becoming scared easily. LOL, ask me how many band-aides I have gone through in the last four weeks!

A Mini Poodle would work nicely for you. Shoot, my Toy loves kids (even though he was not raised with them). Poodles are lovely.
Sheilah


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

All puppies are cute. You need to make sure your future pup is from health tested parents. Doesn't seem like that is that important, because you are desperate for a pup or maybe really, it won't happen to me ...
I tragically lost my first poodle in a freak accident, I got another puppy 3 days later.
This is Beatrice








17 weeks old sweet and cute as a button she came from a back yard breeder..
Beatrice had giardia and an eye infection, I took her to my vet who said her knees weren't great
At 8 months Beatrice developed an odd hitch to her step, diagnosis luxating patellas that she may or may not grow out of, was advised to do strengthening exercises.
At 16 months Beatrice slipped and ruptured her cruciates ligament, she was sent to an orthopedist and had surgery on that knee.
$4000 for the surgery to repair the ligament and grade 3 luxating patella, post surgery check ups and laser therapy on her knee.
Just shy of Beatrice's 3rd birthday she had surgery to repair her grade 4 luxating patella in the other knee because no amount of exercise could help one either, that was another $4000.
At age 4 Beatrice started to have bouts of inexplicable incontinence, $3000 and loads of tests later, Beatrice was diagnosed with chronic kidney disease and urinary tract disease. So Bea is on a prescription diet and supplements, and she pees a lot.
At age 5 and a few months Beatrice developed a lump on her belly, it was tested and came back weird $500, so the big old lump was removed, and would you believe Bea had a hernia that needed repair $3000 total. The lump was sent off and results came back as Lymoangiosarcoma I was sent to an oncologist to confirm, loads of tests $3000 worth to tell me Bea had an incredibly rare aggressive cancer only 16 dogs reported in literature. So rare I told the oncologist, who was holding the same scant print out of articles I read, that I wouldn't be seeking additional treatment the oncologist said at that point all the tumor had been removed but it would come back.
That was 23 months ago, Beatrice is defying the odds. Is she well.? No, Beatrice is on Gabapentin and CBD oil $200 a month to treat her symptoms, she has good days and bad days right now good outweigh the bad, bad days ahe sleeps a lot and cannot walk far, she tires easily.
After all of this you would think enough already, Bea was diagnosed with hypothyroid $500 in blood tests, $28 a month for meds.

Beatrice is 7 years old, I love her to bits, I have no insurance and pay out of pocket, I am not wealthy by any means, I wanted to move out of the condo I live into a house. That was put on hold.
This is Beatrice now









My boy Leonard, I got from a reputable breeder that was recommended here on the forum thanks Cayherine.








I got him at 18 1/2weeks for $2500, his parents were champions, health tested.

The only issues I've had with Len were retained teeth, and him being a puppy.

He is my only pet that doesn't need daily medication.








Len will be 4 in August


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

(Twyla, you may already know this but for those that don't, the GoodRx discount program works for some pet prescriptions too. The ophtho specialist we saw for Holly some years back told us about it and it worked.)


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Here's one of their videos- notice the puppy is afraid. Adorable puppy, but shies away from the person with the camera. I have seen no evidence any of the puppies in any of the 3 videos I watched had extensive human experience/interaction. If I walked into a room and puppies behaved like that, I would leave. No puppy for me.


This puppy isn’t afraid. It’s a nice little submissive Yorkie puppy. Nice coat, nice shape, clear eyes. Lively and playful. I would buy this puppy if the breeder ticked all the right boxes.

There are so many ugly Yorkie puppies around, with wooly coats and sad eyes, and this isn’t one of them.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Deworming and vaccination is seriously no big deal. This is like saying it's a good car because the dealership changed the oil and filled up the tank with gas. 


Dechi said:


> This puppy isn’t afraid. It’s a nice little submissive Yorkie puppy. Nice coat, nice shape, clear eyes. Lively and playful. I would buy this puppy if the breeder ticked all the right boxes.
> 
> There are so many ugly Yorkie puppies around, with wooly coats and sad eyes, and this isn’t one of them.


Agree. Super cute puppy. But watch their other videos. I watched 3 or 4 videos, and not a single puppy followed the human around and clamoured on their legs for attention. They basically all ignore the humans unless approached. even the happy playing puppies ignored the human and backed up if the human approached. Not well socialized.

Any one of Annie's litter, if left in a pen by itself, ran to the side and bounced on it to get closer the human, even the shyer puppies (Annie was one of the shyer puppies). If I entered the pen, my leg was swarmed. Even our farmers mix free-to-a-good-home puppies, the moment they saw humans, ran to greet them and clamber on them. A puppy that flips on its back or backs away from their breeder, who, presumably they have known since birth is a really worrisome sign.

That puppy has very similar body language to Trixie as a puppy, who was such a fearful mess of a dog I wouldn't wish her on anyone. Trixie backed away/cowered from people, and still does, was afraid being indoors. I cried when I first met her. Had driven 6 hours on a Friday after work to meet the new puppy - and she cowered from me and ran from me. Even at almost 6 with tons of patience and socialization, if I lean over her, she cowers and backs away. Not the right dog for a family.

Here's what I found when I searched for videos of AKC Yorkie puppies. No idea how reputable the breeder is yada yada yada (likely not particularly since she has nonstandard colours) but the video is exactly what I want to see. She shows the house and how the dogs are being kept, adult dogs happily greeting her, and at 0:38, enters the puppy room. Look at how the puppies run to her. All focus is on the human. There is one shy pup that hangs back, but even it runs to see her. That's what I want to see in a happy, well socialized puppy for a family. The video is well done too - it's obviously where the puppies are being raised, not some sterile crate pen for selling/videoing.


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