# What are guard hairs?



## CharismaticMillie

Silly question, I know. But..what exactly are guard hairs? Do puppies have them or just adults? Where are they?

Thanks!


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## whitepoodles

ChocolateMillie;109224 said:


> Silly question, I know. But..what exactly are guard hairs? Do puppies have them or just adults? Where are they?
> 
> Thanks!


No, not silly at all... a good question.
Guard hair is the hair forming the outer layer of the coat which protects the "undercoat" at the root from the elements.
The guard hair have a coarse feel to them when one touches the outer layer of the coat and are the longest.
A poodle's topknot is considered guard hair. Anything at the root base and slightly above which is cottony and softer to the touch is considered undercoat.
Some poodles' coats are not of proper texture and at times the guard hair are not coarse and the coat is thin sparse and soft to the touch.. This is considered poor coat texture. The only time that this will be ok is when the puppy is young and up to the time his coat starts to change, at about 9 mos. to 15 mos. following which it should develop proper coarse guardhairs.
If this does not happen than that poodle has a soft coat with poor texture. 
Many poodles have difficult to manage coats.. the whites especially when going through coat change are HELL to manage. but once the coat change is done it is glorious to feel a coat that is crisp firm dense with correct texture coarse hair. So beautiful to scissor as well.


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## CharismaticMillie

Whitepoodles - Thanks so much for your explanation! I have been wondering this forever - I can never distinguish the difference between guard hairs and regular adult coat. So are guard hairs found everywhere throughout the dog's coat mixed in with the undercoat?

Another reason I am asking...Millie (6 mo.) has recently developed a sparse line of wirey, white hairs along her back.  I am guessing this is the beginning of her coat change? Or maybe guard hairs? I assume it also means she will fade   

I believe your specialty is whites, so you might not know the answer to this, but do dogs who are fading tend to fade on their guard hairs in particular?

Thanks! Sorry for being such a novice! :/


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## whitepoodles

ChocolateMillie said:


> Whitepoodles - Thanks so much for your explanation! I have been wondering this forever - I can never distinguish the difference between guard hairs and regular adult coat. So are guard hairs found everywhere throughout the dog's coat mixed in with the undercoat?
> 
> Another reason I am asking...Millie (6 mo.) has recently developed a sparse line of wirey, white hairs along her back.  I am guessing this is the beginning of her coat change? Or maybe guard hairs? I assume it also means she will fade
> 
> I believe your specialty is whites, so you might not know the answer to this, but do dogs who are fading tend to fade on their guard hairs in particular?
> 
> Thanks! Sorry for being such a novice! :/


Please NEVER apologise for being a novice. We all started this way.. we were all once novices. I asked more than my fair share of questions at times even silly ones before and even after I started breeding and showing poodles. Asking questions is part of a learning process which we must go through if we are to learn and become knowledgeable in any field.
and I always say, NO question is dumb.... so pls. ask away.
Yes guard hair is what is at the top (whisps) of the coat and the undercoat is what is under the guardhair (guard is exactely what guard hairs do, they guard the undercoat from the elements, rain, mud, polution, dust, etc.. 
In order for me to try and answer your question I will need to know what color is your poodle?
Oh no, my specialty is not whites, matter of fact I started wtih a totally dominant for black line and aquired a white bitch to start a white line with. I purchased Lola especially for my boy Cole as the pedigree was beautiful and I believed that the combination of both Lola's and Cole's lineage will produce nice puppies with great temperaments... Hence the start of my white line.. BUT I AM very much still in blacks and produce them in every litter, but this one I am expecting now out of Lola and Cole.. I would like to specialize in both blacks and whites but have produced some really pretty blues as well (not fading black, but true blues).
Pls. let me know what color is your puppy girl ?


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## CharismaticMillie

Whitepoodles - my puppy girl is brown.


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## whitepoodles

Another reason I am asking...Millie (6 mo.) has recently developed a sparse line of wirey, white hairs along her back.  I am guessing this is the beginning of her coat change? Or maybe guard hairs? I assume it also means she will fade   


This is really very strange. I rarely see a brown with a faint whittish line on the back, I assume guardhair? You will have to talk to her breeder and see if there are any whites/creams in her brown line.
I am not a color breeder but to me having a shade of white hair mixed in with the brown coat is what can I say out of the ordinary.. I am used to seeing it in bad blacks when they fade and go grizzly but have never heard this to happen with a brown. If you ask your breeder please let me know as I am very interested to know why this would happen.
Sorry I cant help you with the white hair.


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## Fluffyspoos

At 8 months, Vegas already has obvious guard hairs, but hadn't gone through coat change yet. Do guard hairs grow faster than the cottony coat?


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## CharismaticMillie

Well, I actually do think it is grizzling similar to a bad black. From what I have heard browns have a tendency to fade. I looked on PHR at Millie's sire's and dam's pedigrees and found a couple whites 4+ gen. back. Everything in Millie's 3 gen. pedigree is black or brown, though.

She has some white hairs in her tail, and several along her back. I just plucked a couple super obvious ones out, ha ha.

I am guessing the fading gene was passed to Millie. I am thinking these white hairs are guard hairs too because they are so much coarser. 

I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that Cbrand's brown and Jessie's mom's brown developed scattered white hairs and have faded slightly as well. 

I love her just the same either way! In fact, I was prepared for her to possibly fade when I purchased her. (Many browns I have seen are not rich brown after a few years).


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## whitepoodles

Fluffyspoos said:


> At 8 months, Vegas already has obvious guard hairs, but hadn't gone through coat change yet. Do guard hairs grow faster than the cottony coat?


Fluffyspoo:
Most blacks these days will not retain their jet black coat with which they are born. Many moons ago when Jean Lyle of Wycliffe bred her in bred dogs they all managed to retain a deep jet black into adulthood and old age, that is because she never used any other color but black in her line. She was famous for her blacks and they formed the foundation for many many breeders many years ago.
As whites became popular people started to breed whites to blacks and started to dilute the black gene, hence the grizzling and fading in blacks today. 
I still maintain that I would rather a grizzly grayish black dog and a healthy one rather than a jet black dog with health and temperament issues and If I was faced with a choice I would of never done an in breeding, but this was popular many years ago, with genetic problems surfacing and gene markers found for several breeders are now diversifying their pedigrees and it is not such a big deal now to see a black bred to a white as it used to be many years ago when black were bred to blacks and whites to white.. Today many breeders are health conscious and will breed two dogs based on health in a pedigree rather than color, at least I know I WOULD.

A brown having whites in the background is not favorable to me.. I would rather have brown mixed with black color in a pedigree rather than brown and whites. First off I would not breed a brown with whites in the background strictly because of light pigment issues... When a brown is bred to a black it intensifies the brown color and makes it hold its deep color longer. If a brown pedigree has whites in it.. I really dont know what to say.. I just wont breed browns with whites in the background. I once wanted to use a top breeder's black boy who carried a brown gene with my jet black girl. That was many years ago.. The stud owner told me.. I will breed to your bitch if you absolutely want to use my stud but I will not advise you as your bitch carries white gene and has white in her background. Todate I appreciate this stud owner for opening my eyes and letting me know that to breed a black who has whites in her pedigree to a black who has brown will not be advisable. Matter of fact it is from her I have found that out (Peggy McDill).
From what I know and have seen, very rarely a deep brown will retain its color and not fade to a cafe au lait. or an red to a faded apricot color.. we do love them all the same, dont we? what is color.. but color ! The dog is what's important.


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## CharismaticMillie

whitepoodles said:


> Fluffyspoo:
> Most blacks these days will not retain their jet black coat with which they are born. Many moons ago when Jean Lyle of Wycliffe bred her in bred dogs they all managed to retain a deep jet black into adulthood and old age, that is because she never used any other color but black in her line. She was famous for her blacks and they formed the foundation for many many breeders many years ago.
> As whites became popular people started to breed whites to blacks and started to dilute the black gene, hence the grizzling and fading in blacks today.
> I still maintain that I would rather a grizzly grayish black dog and a healthy one rather than a jet black dog with health and temperament issues and If I was faced with a choice I would of never done an in breeding, but this was popular many years ago, with genetic problems surfacing and gene markers found for several breeders are now diversifying their pedigrees and it is not such a big deal now to see a black bred to a white as it used to be many years ago when black were bred to blacks and whites to white.. Today many breeders are health conscious and will breed two dogs based on health in a pedigree rather than color, at least I know I WOULD.
> 
> A brown having whites in the background is not favorable to me.. I would rather have brown mixed with black color in a pedigree rather than brown and whites. First off I would not breed a brown with whites in the background strictly because of light pigment issues... When a brown is bred to a black it intensifies the brown color and makes it hold its deep color longer. If a brown pedigree has whites in it.. I really dont know what to say.. I just wont breed browns with whites in the background. I once wanted to use a top breeder's black boy who carried a brown gene with my jet black girl. That was many years ago.. The stud owner told me.. I will breed to your bitch if you absolutely want to use my stud but I will not advise you as your bitch carries white gene and has white in her background. Todate I appreciate this stud owner for opening my eyes and letting me know that to breed a black who has whites in her pedigree to a black who has brown will not be advisable. Matter of fact it is from her I have found that out (Peggy McDill).
> From what I know and have seen, very rarely a deep brown will retain its color and not fade to a cafe au lait. or an red to a faded apricot color.. we do love the all the same, dont we? what is color.. but color ! The dog is what's important.


Yes indeed - the dog itself is most important!! Millie's personality is a constant reminder to me to not take life too seriously! 

I do know that Millie's breeder did testing to determine what colors the dam and sire carried and it was only black and brown. The litter was supposed to be 75% brown and 25% black based on genetics and.... that is exactly what it was!! Gotta love science!


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## whitepoodles

[ I looked on PHR at Millie's sire's and dam's pedigrees and found a couple whites 4+ gen. back. Everything in Millie's 3 gen. pedigree is black or brown, though.

I was under the impression from your above statement that there were some white dogs in Millie's pedigree in the 4th generation.


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## CharismaticMillie

I don't know I am confused - ha ha. Her 3 gen. (my hard copy) has all black and browns. 

Then I looked up her sire on PHR and found HIS Sire's, Sire's, Sire's Dam was white. Also, Millies Sire's, Sire's Dam was white. In fact, every dog on this side is black or white...how on earth is Millie's sire's sire brown anyway?


Looked up Millie's Dam....and Millie's Dam's, Dam's, Dam was white. 

This stuff confuses me!!!!!!

Edited: but I do know that Millie's sire's owner has been breeding browns for quite some time, so he must have SOME idea of what he is doing, ha ha. I for one, am quite confused at the moment.


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## whitepoodles

Looked up Millie's Dam....and Millie's Dam's, Dam's, Dam was white. 

This stuff confuses me!!!!!![/QUOTE]

I too am confused.. LOL no wonder I only stick to blacks whites and blues.. HA HA !! It hard enough to breed these colors let alone silvers, apricots/reds/browns.. goodness I dont even want to go there I do however admire the color breeders for the hard work they put into breeding the colored poodles.


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## CharismaticMillie

OOps i meant dam's dam's dam's dam! WHAAAT?! Putting down the pedigree!


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## whitepoodles

ChocolateMillie said:


> OOps i meant dam's dam's dam's dam! WHAAAT?! Putting down the pedigree!


LOLOL Millie NOW you are really confusing me.. :doh:


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## flyingduster

well back to the guard hair thing, I attempted to take macro photos of Paris' hair ages ago to show the guard hairs... 





































The guard hairs are the wirey springy thicker ones. I know it's hard to see, that's why i took so many pics! lol This was when her coat was long and growing a lot too; if they're freshly groomed then the guard hairs are plush with the undercoat and don't spring up beyond it; as yes they do grow faster than the undercoat!


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## CharismaticMillie

FD! I SEE it now! I understand it! Thanks!!

btw - I JUST saw that you had responded to my guard hair question on another thread.


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## Marian

FD, you posting porno pics of Paris again? *snigger*


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## flyingduster

lmao! I have NO idea why they got tagged as being bad???!!! LOL! I've re-done them anyway, refresh the page and they should show....


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## SnorPuddel

whitepoodles said:


> I would like to specialize in both blacks and whites but have produced some really pretty blues as well (not fading black, but true blues).
> Pls. let me know what color is your puppy girl ?


Ora you do produce very beautiful blues !!


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## whitepoodles

SnorPuddel said:


> Ora you do produce very beautiful blues !!


LOL thank you so much Snorpoo.. I couldnt ask for a better more devoted and loving doggy owner. Baldr and your beautiful corded girl Foxy have a great person who loves them.. YOU !


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