# Watchful heeling??



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

judyd, i can't answer your question, since i have no knowledge on this, but i just wanted to say i also find the constant looking up a bit creepy. i wonder if the dog ends up with neck problems, too. 

i'll be interested to learn what others have to say about this practice and why it is or isn't necessary.


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## DreamAgility (Sep 2, 2013)

JUdges like to see the dog watching the owner, because it seems to represent a happy dog. If the dog is not lookin at you, its usually not completely focused. The dog will miss/missunderstand cues if they are not watching you.
My Aussie loves Rlly at home or in class, but in shows she makes no eye contacts and becomes very...unresponsive. Dogs like this tend to do poorly because they won't make eye contact.
Dreame is always happy, watches my face, and catches every last one of my cues. If you train and reward eye contacts from the start, you will do better as a team. It looks more awkward if the dog walks along the owners side without the happy spark of life while watching mommy/daddy. It is also awkward for the dog and handler because there is no connection.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Thanks, patk! I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds it unsettling. 

DreamAgility, I know the dog needs to be alert to every cue during competition, so I can see why it would be useful then, but otherwise? I guess what I'm saying is that I can't see any use for it in the real world, if, for instance, you're just walking through a crowd and you want the dog to heel close in. (I think I'm looking for justification not to make Jazzie do this... :biggrin1: )


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

I think you might find uses for it in real world if there is ever a situation when you really need the dog to pay attention to you, but that would be rare, not constantly.. 

I think it could be useful having two different commands, one for just "normal healing" as you already got your dog doing and a different one for the "watchful healing" .... it is almost like a "new trick" to teach your dog, where he needs to give you his full attention. "we are working now not just taking a walk" type of thing


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Wild Kitten said:


> I think you might find uses for it in real world if there is ever a situation when you really need the dog to pay attention to you, but that would be rare, not constantly..
> 
> I think it could be useful having two different commands, one for just "normal healing" as you already got your dog doing and a different one for the "watchful healing" .... it is almost like a "new trick" to teach your dog, where he needs to give you his full attention. "we are working now not just taking a walk" type of thing


You know, that makes sense. Something like "with me" if you need close attention in the real world versus whatever command you'd use in competition? I think Jazz could sort that out.


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

I don't think a competition actually dictates what command you use (at least it doesn't do in europe - you get international competitions where everyone speaks in their own language to their dogs, it would be impossible), as long as the dog performs the required behaviour as it should you get the points. 

You can use any new command for a new behaviour and just use the existing one for the heal you already got with her.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I (and many others in my area call this heads up heeling). I personally hate the way it looks and if you read your AKC rules for both rally and obedience you lose points if the dog interferes with you. So if while heeling heads up with his/her neck wrapping in front of your thigh (if a large dog) your leg and the dog's head and/or neck make contact in a way that breaks your stride or makes the dog react by moving it's position you will get dinged points for that. I also think it is unnatural and the AKC rules speak to natural movement and natural arm position in a number of places. I also think it is potentially uncomfortable for the dog. 

That being said, you will not be surprised that I do not insist on heads up heeling from either of my dogs. Lily checks in frequently by giving a quick heads up and she is a beautiful heeler who scores very well for heeling. Peeves is not built to give easy heads up check ins, but has great peripheral vision (think about how herding dogs work) and is responsive to my changes of pace and sits when I halt (although it takes longer for his butt to hit the floor than for Lily's, but then again she is a show off).

If you don't like heads up heeling, but can get good attention without it, I don't think you should insist on it or let someone convince you you need it to get good scores. Dogs are very good at understanding that a certain word means you insist on something vs. this is casual so be relaxed in your response. It isn't that they understand the word, but they associate the sound of the word with the context in which you taught it and continue to use it. For my dogs, being on leashes in the driveway with "let's go" means loose leash walking. If they are at my obedience club or a match or a trial, "heel" means just that...stay at heel and pay attention to what I am saying or signaling for you to do. 

The AKC rules do not specify what word you use. You can use any polite word you want. Around here many people now give the order "strut" when they start heeling. I don't know who started it, but everybody now seems to be using it. I heard it a lot at AKC nationals. I personally think it is silly and don't see anything wrong with "heel." Sometimes you need a different word if your old order has been poisoned. For example, I had polluted my "go out" order to Lily. She had decided it meant go to the other side of the ring to look for food. Lots of people at my club put squeeze cheese on the target stanchion that we have for go outs, so it always smells like there is something there. I never put food to lure the go out anymore. I stopped training the exercise completely for about 2 months, then I changed the order to be "fly away" so that she wouldn't go looking for food.

PS, sorry this got so long.


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

I have not specifically trained for heads up heeling but Racer & my female shepherd both offer it because they seem to want to look at me. My male shepherd heels well but does not look into my face. I did train that the word "ready" means give me your attention just as the dog's name means look at me. Regular walking uses let's go & competition uses heel. There is a trainer in this area who also insists on constant heads up heeling at all times. Like you I find it unnatural and ridiculous if not offered by the dog. The other issue that comes up in competition is if the dog is looking up at you constantly they seemwill often sit crooked or forward of you trying to keep the contact. 

I agree that you could use 2 different commands or just let your dog heel in whatever position is natural for them. You know them best & you get to make that decision.

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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

Also when dogs are in regular obedience competition you cannot talk to them during exercises like you can in rally. They cue from your body language & footwork. They can heel head down in a normal position & read your body as easily as they can looking into your face.

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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I asked this very same question to the decoy at my training club. His comment was - One dog won doing that so now everyone trains for it. This is a Shutzhund club (I guess IPO club now, but anyway). I myself don't like it at all. I think it defeats the purpose of what Shutzhund is trying to represent - an alert, prtective, obedient dog. How can a working dog, especially one with the intention of protection be useful if it can not watch what's going on out in the real world? I can guarantee there's little going on in my head/eyes. lol

I, personally, train for a 'Heel' which is the walking crisply beside me, a 'Fuss' for that focused heel, and a 'Let's Go' or 'Walkies' for a relaxed just stroll around kind of a thing. 

And, yes, the spine injury issue - since I am a chiropractic patient, I wonder that very same thing and I don't like the twisted way of walking - it looks like it would be very uncomfortable and I don't like the way it alters the fluid movement of a nice, confident gait to an almost choked, gimpy movement they have with their heads twisted round sideways and up.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i agree that "heads up heeling" does not seem to fit in with the idea of schutzhund training. i always associate it with people who do dancing with dogs (which is great, from what i can see). but a protection dog? noooo!


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Thanks to all of you. I don't really need a lot of external validation (imagine that!), but since I haven't been to a match or trial for many, many years, I thought perhaps the watchful heeling was now a requirement for competition. I'll just let that go and train for close heeling without the watchful part. Again, thanks!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

For walks outside, I expect a loose leash but I don't have the dog looking up at me constantly. 
For heeling, my dogs know it's "work time" and happily keep their eyes on me at all times- they KNOW that at any time that left hand of mine will swoop down and hand out a most delicious treat- so they look up!  They know when it's "work time" as well, because I use a completely different collar and leash vs. a harness and thicker nylon leash at regular 'walkie' time. The fancy watching me constantly while heeling is ONLY for class time and the occasions that we compete in obedience/rally.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds wrap around heeling odd - one reason that I am drawn to Rally is that it asks for the dog to be at a constant distance from the handler, which seems both safer and more comfortable when walking a toy. I actually need to teach Poppy not to watch me so avidly ("Treat? You twitched your eyebrow - does that mean it's time for another treat? How about if I do that Sit/Down/Sit and bounce? Or just Bounce? Did you blink? Does that mean something?") and actually listen to what I say instead! I'm not yet a good enough trainer to control the scatter gun of signals she is picking up by watching my every move, and she has not learned to ignore the ones that are just noise!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

JudyD said:


> Thanks to all of you. I don't really need a lot of external validation (imagine that!), but since I haven't been to a match or trial for many, many years, I thought perhaps the watchful heeling was now a requirement for competition. I'll just let that go and train for close heeling without the watchful part. Again, thanks!


JudyD you will do just fine in rings with that. Lily consistently gets scores in the 190s when she qualifies in obedience (her NQs have nothing to do with not heeling in a lively attentive manner). She also score consistently in the 90s (often very high 90s of 100) in rally.

fjm, if you really want to have a lesson in sending multiple confusing and unintended signals, try agility. I apparently used to tell Lily all sorts of conflicting things with looking one way and feet pointing a different way and so forth.


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

I had wondered what this was actually called. I think it looks great, how would you train a toy to do "watchful heeling?" I'd like to train Willow to do this. 


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Any size dog can be taught heads up heeling, but I wouldn't teach it unless you need it. I also think it is harder to teach to a small dog since there is such a big distance between your face and the dog.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Jack does it and he's 13" tall. Echo (PWD) is 20" and also watches me for heeling. Understand there was absolutely NO force or coersion to make the dogs watch my face while heeling. They did it on their own and I simply reinforced (treat, praise, smiling at them) their looking at me. 

Whether or not you reinforce your dog to look at you while heeling is your own decision and either way is perfectly fine.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Shamrockmommy, I am all for everyone working with their dog in what ever way they want if it makes their relationship better, enriches the person and the dog's lives and doesn't rely on punitive measures that the dog doesn't understand. I hope you didn't think I meant heads up heeling was a bad thing to do. I just don't care for it myself.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I've just been training Matisse to look up at me when I ask and sometimes he just does it on his own every 10 steps or so....sort of like checking in..._don't get too terribly distracted by other things or forget what we're doing, but do watch where you're going._ lol. My verbal cue is "watch" and I can just use the last part of the sound it makes, "ch," (oh no, I sound like Cesar Milan.) lol. 

Yes, personally, I don't care for that extreme and unnatural looking heel with the dog wrapped around with his head constantly looking up at the person. I know I'd get a terrible cramp in my neck if I did that for long periods.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

JudyD said:


> Background:...Here's my concern. The trainer teaches "watchful heeling," which requires the dog to look up at the trainer the entire time the dog is heeling. For some reason, this makes me uncomfortable. It looks robotic, or as if the dog is trying too hard or is afraid to look away...or something. It just looks odd to me and makes me...I dunno...uneasy.


You are so not alone in this Judy! There was a discussion of it in _Poodle Variety _(October-December 2013, pages 94, 96) in "Trends and Changes in the Obedience Ring," by Carol Pernicka. Here's an excerpt. 

A reader recently asked me about trends and styles in the obedience ring and how things have changed over the years. For example, he remembers a time when competitive obedience dogs looked "normal" when heeling. Then, he said, "I started seeing these dogs with their heads looking straight up up at their handlers and prancing with their fronts, never looking forward, only looking up. It looked (and looks) totally weird to this non-obedience person."

So I asked people in the obedience world: What changes have you seen in the last 10 to 20 years? And do you think the changes are for better or worse?.....
Regarding the difference in heeling styles, Shanahan says, "The emphasis on full attention from the dog has been growing more and more important, and along with that comes the desire to have that heads-up prancing motion." She believes that one reason we see the heads-up posture more often today is that "it's easier for the handler to known when the dog is paying attention; a second is that some of these dogs earn top scores, so others copy it."


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Very interesting conversation! I am new to the sport of competitive obedience and have put an Advanced Rally title on Tiger within the past year as well as a Beginner Novice Obedience title and our first CD leg. When I read the OPs original post, my first thought was that _of course_ I encourage watchful heeling with Tiger as that is how he is in tune with my subtle movement and body language. Whether or not his head was completely wrapped around looking at me, though, I honestly hadn't payed attention to! So, this past week at class and during our practice sessions at home I payed closer attention. I would say that, yes, Tiger definitely looks at me during formal heeling. Maybe not with his head totally cranked to the side, but he's certainly watching me - intently - and he is choosing to turn his had toward me at least partially to see better what my next step might be. But, formal heeling is such a specific exercise and only done for very short periods of time and always released. And it isn't something you would ask for when you are walking casually. When I am out with him on a hike or a walk I do not ask for formal/watchful heeling, just for him to walk nicely at my side.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

As I mentioned above, I find that twisted head-stilted prance business unpleasant to watch. I certainly don't want to teach Jazz to do it. Having said that, I would like a bit more attention to what we're doing in a formal heeling situation. (After reading some of the responses in the "If your dog could talk" thread, I've decided Jazz is like a teenager with selective hearing, or maybe Miracle Max in the "Princess Bride," dancing around with hands over ears, chanting "I'm not listening, I'm not listening!!") I will continue to work on the "watch me" command, but just for a reminder, not for constant watching while heeling.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

A watch me command is good and I have always used that for casual walking. But, when competing, you can't remind your dog to watch you. Tiger knows formal heeling means he must be entirely focused on me and casual loose leash walking he just needs to never show me his butt. . When he hears "Ready! Let's go!" He knows its working time. That said, he doesn't have to crank his neck. He just has to carry his head up and be watching me for my cues.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

CharismaticMillie if you are going to PCA this year and you are there on Tuesday you can watch the obedience rings and see what the handlers there are doing and how it scores. As I said earlier I don't like heads up heeling, but still get good heeling scores without it. Lily frequently "checks in" with me though.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> CharismaticMillie if you are going to PCA this year and you are there on Tuesday you can watch the obedience rings and see what the handlers there are doing and how it scores. As I said earlier I don't like heads up heeling, but still get good heeling scores without it. Lily frequently "checks in" with me though.


Sadly, as a teacher, I am never able to make PCA. Middle of the week during state standardized testing week. :/

I like a dog to heal with their head up. No head down looking at the ground. That tells me my dog is totally distracted or not focused. If one eye isn't on me, the dog is going to miss my cues. Cranking the head to the side isn't necessary, but being focused and able to me is.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh I wouldn't let Lily look down, but dogs have pretty good peripheral vision so they can see when you slow down or speed up easily without it being apparent that they are looking at you. Peeves always seems like he is looking straight ahead, but he takes all of my cues without turning his head.

I know what you mean about PCA being a rough date for a teacher. I am a college professor and or break week is this week. I have substitutes doing my classes.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> Oh I wouldn't let Lily look down, but dogs have pretty good peripheral vision so they can see when you slow down or speed up easily without it being apparent that they are looking at you. Peeves always seems like he is looking straight ahead, but he takes all of my cues without turning his head.
> 
> I know what you mean about PCA being a rough date for a teacher. I am a college professor and or break week is this week. I have substitutes doing my classes.


I agree. When I say head up, I mean carried up nicely instead of looking down or away at the spectators. He doesn't turn his head all the way and look at me the whole time while he is healing. But he is still *watchful* - at least on a good day!

I wish I could have a substitute so I could go to PCA - but I am a long term substitute. Next year I plan to not take a job late April so I can go. But I had to this year since I stayed home all winter to raise the puppies. Anyway, unlike this year, next year I will actually have someone to show!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Just thinking about this some more Millie and I think our difference is in what we are calling the behavior more than what we are looking for in the behavior.

Chagall's Mom (and researcher extraordinaire), thank you for that interesting tidbit about where and how heads up heeling became popular! We are just a bunch of copy cats aren't we? Now everybody around here calls heeling "strut" instead of heel, like that dog actually knows what the word means. Do most of the people who say strut say it because they think their dog does better heeling or do they do it because they saw somebody with an OTCh/200 dog use that order? Personally as I said earlier Lily will "heel" without having her neck straining to keep her head pointed up at the sky in front of my left thigh.


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

I'm still a proponent of whatever "natural" is for the individual dog. I will say that the wrapped around your leg staring constantly into your face dogs doesn't look natural at all & sometimes my 2 that look at my face don't look natural but the angles are not as awkward as what you see out there. I have no idea how I would begin to train them not to watch me lol. Also even the amount of watching my two do causes crooked sits. I didn't really care with my shepherd but perhaps when I start working for a consistent straight sit with Racer his head will move more to center vs sideways. I can't imagine the straight sits that those twisted around dogs give are comfortable for them.

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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

This has been an interesting conversation. When I was into obedience, 'way back before my Agility days, maybe in the early '90's or so, the idea of "watchful heeling" (or "attentive heeling," as I've heard it called) was just gaining momentum. Our training club had a whole class called "Attention" which was all about getting that eyes-glued-to-you performance. (At the time, it was based a lot on "leash pops," but that's a whole 'nother story!) One of the popular books at the time (Diane Bauman's _Beyond Basic Dog Training_) had a whole chapter on teaching the dog to walk while looking up at your face rather than ahead, most of the top trainers were winning trials that way, and _Front and Finish_ magazine was full of articles about it. 

I haven't been in the Obedience ring in ages, so I just went and looked at some videos from the 2013 Obedience Nationals and sure enough, most of the competitors (well, all the ones that I watched in my small sampling) were doing attentive heeling. I would guess the reason why is because it works better / scores higher than the more natural walking on leash that one would do in real life. Just like the extremely stylized and impractical conformation haircuts of the Poodle, the Obedience ring is about a _stylized_ performance. If dogs walking naturally were scoring equally at well at the higher eschelons of the sport, believe me, people wouldn't still be doing it.

Can you be successful without attentive heeling? Sure. You can be successful in Agility without distance work, too, or with stopped contacts rather than running. So, if what you're looking for are good-to-decent scores and fun weekends, you're golden. If your ambition is top scores and national rankings...probably you'll need to do what the people achieving those things are doing. 

All that said, some training methods are more likely than others to "naturally" produce an attentive heeling dog. I only taught Sugarfoot the heel command (I use "heel" for the left and "close" for the right--in Agility you want a dog with no preference for one of your sides over the other) using rather casual methods as the skill is a good one for getting the dog into the ring and lined up. Somewhat to my surprise, he has developed an attentive-heeling style. I took him out in the yard today to give it a try and got a bit on film. Here it is:

http://youtu.be/m2X0ehBARJw

Okay, so he's not quite ready for the ring, but pretty good for a dog who's never been taught to heel formally! (We never train on leash, either--guess I'd have to get that skill in there if we wanted to compete.) 

--Q


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

So Quossum I know you weren't training the heeling and it doesn't matter for agility, but I did notice that the eyes up from Sugarfoot did give you crooked sits. I agree that if you want top level scores in agility you do need distance, but I'm not so sure that you can't get really good obedience scores without heads up heeling. We generally lose no more than 1/2 to 1 point on heeling (sometimes nothing) without heads up. My bigger problem is crooked fronts or NQs for utility exercises that involve "away" work (although now that we are getting better agility distance that is getting better).

Bottom line do what you need to to enjoy what ever you do with your dog.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Here's a minirant. I shied away after trying really very hard with a couple of lovely conformation dogs and then got dumped for handlers the majority of the time. 
I switched to obedience and it seems like that is getting just as cut-throat (as far as some judges) as conformation was. 

Nowadays, I just go to classes to have something fun to do with my dogs. Competing is not really for me any more.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Here's a minirant. I shied away after trying really very hard with a couple of lovely conformation dogs and then got dumped for handlers the majority of the time.
> I switched to obedience and it seems like that is getting just as cut-throat (as far as some judges) as conformation was.
> 
> Nowadays, I just go to classes to have something fun to do with my dogs. Competing is not really for me any more.


Shamrockmommy, I agree that there are some obedience handlers who take it way too seriously. I've seen people yell angrily at their dogs when they NQ and even know someone who gave a dog (not poodle) away after the dog NQ'd in open (after having finished novice in three tries all will scores over 195). I just ignore those people and do what works for me and Lily or me and Peeves. Don't let that kind of stuff drive you away if you enjoy being in an obedience ring with your dog.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Yes, seems there are always a few people who have a dog in order to have fun competing, rather than compete in order to have fun with their dog...


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Here's a minirant. I shied away after trying really very hard with a couple of lovely conformation dogs and then got dumped for handlers the majority of the time.
> I switched to obedience and it seems like that is getting just as cut-throat (as far as some judges) as conformation was.
> 
> Nowadays, I just go to classes to have something fun to do with my dogs. Competing is not really for me any more.


Unfortunately many folks get the bad taste in their mouths that it sounds like you have. I'm not going to lie, I'm competitive by nature. I am however not one of those folks who armchair quarterback others at trials. I give compliments and only give pointers to those who are close friends & ask my opinion. So many people want to give suggestions as to how you should handle your dog, both in obedience & agility. Sorry, I pay my trainers for tips. 

You have to run your own dog. You know them best and only you can make decisions based on your comfort level. 

When I step into the ring at any venue everyone and everything else falls away. It is just me and the dog. That in itself is more fulfilling than titles or ribbons. It has taken me a while to get to this point. 

You find the cutthroat folks everywhere. Don't let them spoil your fun if you are ever to the point at which you think of competing again! 

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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

poolann said:


> Unfortunately many folks get the bad taste in their mouths that it sounds like you have. I'm not going to lie, I'm competitive by nature. I am however not one of those folks who armchair quarterback others at trials. I give compliments and only give pointers to those who are close friends & ask my opinion. So many people want to give suggestions as to how you should handle your dog, both in obedience & agility. Sorry, I pay my trainers for tips.
> 
> You have to run your own dog. You know them best and only you can make decisions based on your comfort level.
> 
> ...


poolann, I also have found that I have a somewhat competitive streak in me when it comes to trials. I am always happier to place rather than to just Q, but I always try to keep the attitude that I am trying to best myself. Like, I have gotten 100 scores in rally advanced any number of times, but have yet to get it in excellent. I always go into the excellent rings saying to Lily and myself "let's that 100 today girlie girl," but I would never yell at her or be disappointed with her if it doesn't happen. One of the most exciting days for me at a trial was when we got our first novice obedience leg with a score of 177. I am sure there were people who would have been [email protected]!#ed as all get out at their dogs for a "lousy" score like that but I was so thrilled I called my obedience club to tell my trainer that we qualified, yeah!!! In November last year we finally got our novice standard agility title. I had the biggest celebration when we finished and Lily knew I was very excited over what she had done, but I noticed no applause from the gallery. It wasn't a pretty run by any means. Lily stopped for a long time at the top of the A frame and I was lucky to make time. I knew what the shortcomings in that run were, but I also knew how hard we struggled for that third Q and I wasn't going to let the stinkers on the other side of the gate diminish my celebration.

We get out of any event what we bring to it.


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

Catherine I like the ribbons too 

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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I am an oddball in competitive obedience. Not competitive at all by nature - thrilled just to Q.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I am an oddball in competitive obedience. Not competitive at all by nature - thrilled just to Q.


That's the spirit! Have fun with your dog and ignore those of us who are competing for whatever that's worth (not like most of us are making any money, just bringing home more dog toys....oh wait you can *never *have enough dog toys. Keep placing Lily, Peeves needs another toy to destroy!).


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

lily cd re said:


> So Quossum I know you weren't training the heeling and it doesn't matter for agility, but I did notice that the eyes up from Sugarfoot did give you crooked sits. I agree that if you want top level scores in agility you do need distance, but I'm not so sure that you can't get really good obedience scores without heads up heeling. We generally lose no more than 1/2 to 1 point on heeling (sometimes nothing) without heads up. My bigger problem is crooked fronts or NQs for utility exercises that involve "away" work (although now that we are getting better agility distance that is getting better).
> 
> Bottom line do what you need to to enjoy what ever you do with your dog.


Oh yeah, definitely! The point of my video (besides representing a little Sugarfoot Jones love!) was just that I got heads-up heeling without really "trying" to get it--I think some dogs and / or types of training just do get that style more readily. And hey, I could get straighter sits if I tried! :laugh:


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I am an oddball in competitive obedience. Not competitive at all by nature - thrilled just to Q.


I have to keep reminding myself of this in Agility! I ruined one dog by stressing over everything (my corgi Hobbit, had to retire her early). Pixie got me mostly out of that mode (plus being a "harder" dog in temperament--sheeze, Hobbit was a marshmallow!), and I'm trying to stay patient and take it easy with Sugarfoot. Sometimes you have to sacrifice the Q for the sake of training, and that's hard to do!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Quossum said:


> Oh yeah, definitely! The point of my video (besides representing a little Sugarfoot Jones love!) was just that I got heads-up heeling without really "trying" to get it--I think some dogs and / or types of training just do get that style more readily. And hey, I could get straighter sits if I tried! :laugh:


is this true without the treats and the treat bag at your waist? not trying to be a smarty-pants here. just curious as to differing behaviors offered by different dogs.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Quossum said:


> I have to keep reminding myself of this in Agility! I ruined one dog by stressing over everything (my corgi Hobbit, had to retire her early). Pixie got me mostly out of that mode (plus being a "harder" dog in temperament--sheeze, Hobbit was a marshmallow!), and I'm trying to stay patient and take it easy with Sugarfoot. Sometimes you have to sacrifice the Q for the sake of training, and that's hard to do!


Tiger is a bit of a marshmallow, too, so I don't strive too much for perfection. I actually had a hard time seeing eye to eye with my obedience instructor for a while because she thought I just didn't care to perfect our problem areas (crooked sits, etc.) . When the truth was that I was trying to keep Tiger from becoming overly stressed. The more I nitpicked, the more issues I ended up creating. He takes things hard when he can tell I am not 100% satisfied. Of course, that means I can't nitpick as much as one would when seeking perfection. That, and, well, I am as green as him! I am excited for his daughter's potential in obedience. I chose her based on being a little "harder" than him in temperament and she has a decent retrieve. We are training from the very beginning with obedience in mind - even our Puppy K is with taught by and comprised mostly of competitive obedience folks. So I am excited! I have learned so much from working with Tiger.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Quossum and CharismaticMillie I think now we are getting close to the core that underlies much of what has been talked about in this thread (although we are starting to stray from the OPs point) which is that you want your dog to get good things out of doing what ever you do with them. If you can shape good heeling and straight sits without stressing the dog then you will enjoy your sport with them at least as much as they enjoy working for you. 

If I thought Lily hated working in any of the events I do with her I would quit for her well being. This doesn't mean there aren't days that are stressful for one or the other or both of us, but overall I can see that she gets great pleasure out of a job well done. Peeves on the other hand worries about noise, worries about too many other dogs, worries about too many other people at most indoor venues (it's a herding dog thing). I also don't think he has it in him to do the sits and downs in novice without me talking him through it, so I have decided for his benefit and my peace of mind that he is a rally (and probably tracking) dog where he can work outdoors and we never have to worry about too much happening in the ring with us. Each dog is different and as others have said here, take advantage of what your dog offers and likes.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

patk said:


> is this true without the treats and the treat bag at your waist? not trying to be a smarty-pants here. just curious as to differing behaviors offered by different dogs.


He does like treats, but yeah, pretty much. Sometimes I don't use treats, just toys. One of the underlying principles of the philosophy I follow is the idea that the dog shouldn't focus on the treats; we do a lot of things involving holding the treat in one hand and the dog has to orient on the other, or rewarding when the dog *stops* going for the treat (see the "It's Yer Choice" video), or making the dog go away from or just completely ignore the treats before receiving them. I think that's part of the reason he came to do this exercise by looking at my face: he figured out it was the best way for him to keep up with me closely and be in the spot to sit at my side.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Quossum and CharismaticMillie I think now we are getting close to the core that underlies much of what has been talked about in this thread (although we are starting to stray from the OPs point) which is that you want your dog to get good things out of doing what ever you do with them. If you can shape good heeling and straight sits without stressing the dog then you will enjoy your sport with them at least as much as they enjoy working for you.
> 
> If I thought Lily hated working in any of the events I do with her I would quit for her well being. This doesn't mean there aren't days that are stressful for one or the other or both of us, but overall I can see that she gets great pleasure out of a job well done. Peeves on the other hand worries about noise, worries about too many other dogs, worries about too many other people at most indoor venues (it's a herding dog thing). I also don't think he has it in him to do the sits and downs in novice without me talking him through it, so I have decided for his benefit and my peace of mind that he is a rally (and probably tracking) dog where he can work outdoors and we never have to worry about too much happening in the ring with us. Each dog is different and as others have said here, take advantage of what your dog offers and likes.


Actually, I'm quite pleased to see the thread move in this direction. Jazz is a soft dog, too, and I made some mistakes at first that have made her less than enthusiastic about obedience work. When she's off lead and chasing a Frisbee for fun, it's easy to move her into the correct behavior, using treats and the toy. Put her in a more or less formal situation, lead on, clearly going to work, and she's a different dog, so I don't insist on perfectly straight sits and snappy heeling. I'm satisfied with what she gives me. I don't know that it will ever be good enough to enter a trial, but if not, so be it. She's still a very good girl and the light of my life.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

JudyD said:


> Actually, I'm quite pleased to see the thread move in this direction. Jazz is a soft dog, too, and I made some mistakes at first that have made her less than enthusiastic about obedience work. When she's off lead and chasing a Frisbee for fun, it's easy to move her into the correct behavior, using treats and the toy. Put her in a more or less formal situation, lead on, clearly going to work, and she's a different dog, so I don't insist on perfectly straight sits and snappy heeling. I'm satisfied with what she gives me. I don't know that it will ever be good enough to enter a trial, but if not, so be it. She's still a very good girl and the light of my life.


This is very wise, just the right attitude to have. 

How things change. I alluded to having an Attention class back in the days when I first started Obedience. You know how we got watchful attention / heeling in those days? Dog on the left, training collar (choke chain) on. Dog looks at your face: praise (sometimes treats, but that wasn't in vogue at the time. Later it would have been spitting a treat to the dog--that came into the repertoire soon after my time). Dog looks away from you: leash pop. Or, dog looks away: brace your hands on your waist with the leash in hands and run away, giving the dog a really hefty pop. Oh, they learned attentive healing, all right! They wouldn't dare look away!

I'm pleased with the attention I get with totally positive methods and no leash at all. 

--Q


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I really need to see if I can get a video of Tiger heeling. Now I'm really not 100% what he does with his head anymore! Yesterday in class he was ON. Amped up and excited to work. One thing I will say is that when he is sitting in heel position, *occasionally* he is staring so intently at me that he almost looks like might fall backwards. But he has always done that...even as a pup! Just gazes at me.... I *think* that when he is actually heeling, he is looking at me, but not that head looking straight up in the hair intensity, just a slight turn of his head at least most of the time. And I definitely haven't purposely trained anything as to his head position. Except I *think* I have a bad habit of looking at him instead of forward while heeling. So I wonder if this ends up encouraging him to keep looking back at me?


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I really need to see if I can get a video of Tiger heeling. Now I'm really not 100% what he does with his head anymore! Yesterday in class he was ON. Amped up and excited to work. One thing I will say is that when he is sitting in heel position, *occasionally* he is staring so intently at me that he almost looks like might fall backwards. But he has always done that...even as a pup! Just gazes at me.... I *think* that when he is actually heeling, he is looking at me, but not that head looking straight up in the hair intensity, just a slight turn of his head at least most of the time. And I definitely haven't purposely trained anything as to his head position. Except I *think* I have a bad habit of looking at him instead of forward while heeling. So I wonder if this ends up encouraging him to keep looking back at me?


It might help to watch others heeling. I don't look forward most of the time. It is interesting to see how others work. I notice many people in competition don't look forward. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

poolann said:


> It might help to watch others heeling. I don't look forward most of the time. It is interesting to see how others work. I notice many people in competition don't look forward.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I do - I watch everyone in class! And then I wonder what we look like. And every time it is our turn to heel, I tell myself to pay attention to what *I* am doing! And once it is our turn I get in the zone and can't remember a thing! Ha! I will say that I was thrilled with our heeling yesterday!!!! In fact - I am going to go ahead and enter in the May trials to hopefully get our last two legs. Our main issue is crooked fronts and crooked sits. But - I'm not sure I care! HA! Attention and heeling wise, we are miles ahead of where we were this past fall when we got our first leg.

We are by far the most green in class. Most people in class have put high level obedience titles on past dogs and some already have their CD title but aren't quite ready for open training class yet. Depending on the dog, I see varying head positions.


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

I just have to hope I never get a sadistic judge that runs me into the ring gates lol. Doing rally I do look up more often to make sure I know where the signs are so I don't pass them but for the most part I'm admiring my gorgeous dogs ;-)


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I try to look down and in front of my path so that I can see things like rings gates ahead to wait for the order for the turn. By looking down a little bit I can catch eye contact with Lily when she checks in with me. When I am getting ready for a halt, I raise my face and square up my shoulders as a cue. 

What ever you do, don't look back towards the dog or you will get lagging. When you are doing an about turn or the outside path on a figure 8 push your left shoulder forward a bit to avoid lagging.

CharismaticMillie _if you want_ to fix crooked fronts you can sometimes try standing with your feet wide enough for Tiger to run through between your knees. As he gets close to front throw a treat or toy backwards and let him go through to get it. This will let him know to aim square towards front. Also I find I am less likely to get a crooked finish if I do a left finish. When Lily was younger I also used left finish to keep her from deciding to do the zoomies as she looked out ahead at the ring after wrapping around behind me (which she was well know to do!). I'm glad to hear you are looking forward to finishing his CD.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Tiger is really not a run through your knees type of guy. We use a PVC front box, which sort of works. I initially taught his fronts for rally, so I wasn't too concerned about a nice straight front. Then we got involved with obedience and started training with a very serious and experienced crew, which is where we started using front boxes. For many weeks, if I tried to use the front box, he wouldn't come to front at all. I had to compromise with him and if I disassemble the front box so that there are just the two parallel long PVC poles he will come right in. 

At one point, we overworked finishes. He started to LOVE finishes and did a consistent automatic finish. In trying to fix that, I caused him to sort of "break" for a while. He got really confused and frustrated trying to figure out what I wanted. He did fine at home, but in class or at trials he was broken. He would literally have a breakdown as he approached front position because he was stressing out about what I wanted. Did I want a front or a finish? We took a break for a while with the puppies and everything and he seems to have really gotten himself back together in terms of coming to front position. We could have straighter fronts, but at this point I am just happy that his front isn't broken anymore. What I do to avoid him getting "finish" happy is to pivot back into heal position after he comes to front position, then pivot back on front of him, and ask him to finish. This way it at least somewhat breaks up the front from the finish. 

I do know not to look back - our instructor was getting on someone for that yesterday. He lagged when we first started training, but I really am pleased with the progress we've made in heeling. 

Our newest issue is that in class, when we practice recalls, the "judge" always says "call your dog!" Tiger has started to come running when he hears this - before I call him. Now, so far most trials I have been to the judge does a hand signal instead of verbally telling me to call my dog. But, still, it is an issue. So, the instructor will now say "call your dog" multiple times with Tiger before I call him.

It's been an adventure - having never done competitive obedience before. But Tiger and my bond has benefited so much it. He's a sweet, sensitive, soft dog but he adores working as a team with me and I enjoy the journey with him.

Once we get our CD we will work on our RE. I don't think I will go on to Open with him. I worry that it could be too stressful for both of us. But you never know.....


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

CM, I have somewhat the the same issues with Jazz and the front command. When she comes in slightly crooked, if I try to get her to straighten the sit, she gets anxious, because she can't see exactly what I want, so she tries to finish instead...all my fault for not making it clear, so right now, I'm just letting her sit slightly crooked. I haven't tried the PVC box---pretty sure that would freak her out, but maybe just the two sides...that might work. Best wishes to you and Tiger. Sounds like you're considerably farther along than we are, but we're having fun. Most of the time. :biggrin1:


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

If you have anticipation on the recall you can also give your own multiple fake orders. After the judge says call your dog you can say stuff like banana or cupcake to teach him to wait for your real order.

Another way to straighten out crooked fronts you can put your foot on the side that the dog leans towards so that to avoid sitting on your foot they have to be straighter in front of you.

I have a variation of the pvc for fronts, finishes and go outs which is to use the clear corner guard molding for walls. It comes in 4 and 8" lengths but is easy to cut to any length you want. I switched to it recently after I saw someone else using it. I like that I think it is somewhat hard for Lily to see until she is close to it. It is a reminder when she gets close to where she is supposed to be a bit more than being a target.

So, I'm thinking that just like we have an agility and a rally thread in the performance sports sub-forum that we need one for obedience too. I will start one now.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> Another way to straighten out crooked fronts you can put your foot on the side that the dog leans towards so that to avoid sitting on your foot they have to be straighter in front of you.


The foot thing throws him off. Then he gets totally crooked the other way or doesn't want to come in. Such a silly dude.

Good call on the new thread! 

I'll try giving fake orders - great idea!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

So funny CM, I actually can't do the foot thing either with Lily and she is too big to fit between my creaking knees easily. What works for some, doesn't work for others. I think it is going to be useful to have the other thread as a way to exchange ideas.

The fake orders thing is the best though for dealing with anticipation. Lily knows come means there will be a drop, front means just that and bananas is a trick to see if she is paying attention!


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