# making a dog sleep later?



## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

I'm already fairly sure that the answer to this query is a simple: you can't; it's something you'll need to adjust to.

anyway - Piper sleeps in a crate in the living room. At around 4:37 every morning (and yes, she usually is this precise at timing) she'll let out a single loud bark. If I ignore her, she'll bark again a few minutes later, and then once 10 minutes have passed she'll start barking repetitively. 

I've been (probably) reinforcing this behavior by getting up at the first bark, letting her hang out with me while I use the bathroom, and then putting her back in her crate. After this she'll usually sleep until we get up at 6.

If I take her out to potty she doesn't go, so that's not why she's barking. I can't put her in bed with us because she'll start wrestling with Jasper and keep us up. I can't let her keep barking bc we have neighbors downstairs and my partner needs sleep more than I do because of her job.

Any ideas? 
Keeping her up later isn't an option, since we go to bed at 9 or 10pm.

I'm really hoping she'll grow out of it, but in the meantime I am very tired (both figuratively and literally, since I don't go back to sleep easily)


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## Axeldog (Aug 29, 2014)

Oh gosh, I feel for you - I am a morning person, but 4:37 is too early even for me. :-( 

Would it be easier to put her crate in the bedroom? At least she would be closer and therefore easier to deal with - perhaps being in the room with you might change the dynamic? Not sure if this is an option though. 

I really don't have a solution for this, but will be interested in what others here say- we have so many wonderful, experienced people on this forum.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I disagree. You CAN. Once, when I was on vacation, I babysat a young golden retriever, maybe 7-8 months old. He belonged to my sister in law, her first dog ever. She warned me he would wake me up every morning around 5. And I told her I Would change that because I wasn't getting up every morning at 5 while on vacation !

And I did. It only took one night and he stopped. He whined, I took him outside in the pitch black night without saying a word, didn't talk, didn't pet him, didn't even say his name. Real boring. I don't remember if he went, but it took 30'seconds and we were back inside and I put him back in the crate, saying nothing again. He them cried again, so I told him to be quiet in a stern voice. He cried some more, so I went to him, opened the crate, and made him lie down like I meant it. I might have done this once again the same night.

After that, I slept in every morning until I was ready to get up, never had a problem again. He understood that his crying wouldn't get him out of the crate, so there was no point to it and he stopped.

My sister in law couldn't believe it and she was happy.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Dechi said:


> I disagree. You CAN. Once, when I was on vacation, I babysat a young golden retriever, maybe 7-8 months old. He belonged to my sister in law, her first dog ever. She warned me he would wake me up every morning around 5. And I told her I Would change that because I wasn't getting up every morning at 5 while on vacation !
> 
> And I did. It only took one night and he stopped. He whined, I took him outside in the pitch black night without saying a word, didn't talk, didn't pet him, didn't even say his name. Real boring. I don't remember if he went, but it took 30'seconds and we were back inside and I put him back in the crate, saying nothing again. He them cried again, so I told him to be quiet in a stern voice. He cried some more, so I went to him, opened the crate, and made him lie down like I meant it. I might have done this once again the same night.
> 
> ...


This. The dog I am dogsitting right now belongs to an older couple who wake up at 5:30 AM and they told me that Pinta is their alarm clock. I don't like to get up before 7 if I can avoid it, especially given how tired I am from moving!

The first morning, Pinta woke me up with a slimy lick to the face right at 5:30 (she sleeps on the floor) and I just rolled to the far side of the bed and told her sternly to "go to sleep". She looked confused and continued whining/grumbling at me till 7. Ari knows that 7 is wake-up time so she was very good about snoozing despite Pinta's noise!

The second morning Pinta licked me again at 5:30, and I said "go to sleep" again and moved to the far side of the bed. She only grumbled for 20 minutes before dozing off again.

The third morning, lick to the face, "go back to bed", and she laid down on the floor with a huff and a grumble and let me sleep till 7!

Fourth morning, glorious uninterrupted sleep! And this dog has kept the 5:30 AM alarm clock routine for 7.5 years. She will undoubtedly go right back to it when her people come home, but in the meantime I get to snooze!

I knew it was possible because this was an issue with Ari when she was a puppy, and I trained her to stay in bed till I till her "it's time to get up!" This is a common problem with young dogs and my first experience with it was with the labrador retriever guide dog puppies I raised, who would start getting antsy for breakfast 1-2 hours beforehand.

The only way to extinguish this behavior is to make sure it isn't rewarding, and right now, Piper is getting regularly rewarded for waking you up just as you suspect. I would designate a 3 day period with your partner where you agree to wait it out using Dechi's advice (try to make it at a low-stress time so you can deal with some sleep deprivation). The few days it will take to extinguish this pushiness will be well worth the lifetime of peaceful sleep afterwards!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I think that the issue may be that he isn't sleeping with you, or even in the same room, so he is going by his own body clock.
I tend to have highly variable sleeping hours, but all of my dogs current and past have slept with me, and have slept precisely when and as long as I sleep unless one of them is sick or something, 100% of the time.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

My two Poodles sleep in their own crates downstairs side by side. I sleep with Jose` upstairs. Maurice started pulling that on me a few times...woke me up at 3 or 4 in the morning. I took him out without talking, he didn't pee...just wanted the company. I put him back in his crate, went upstairs. He yipped a single bark every minute or so. I yelled down to him downstairs, "shuddup!!" And he did. He did this bark thing in the wee hours about 2 or 3 times more and finally got the picture.

I get up before all three of my dogs now. Matisse and Maurice are still sleeping right now but pretty soon they'll give a little wimper and I will let them out for potty. They usually go back to sleep again near my computer for a little longer. Jose` though, gets carried off my bed so he won't try to jump.(It's high) And he goes pee, then on the couch to finish his morning snooze. 

So, if you're pretty sure he couldn't have to go to the bathroom, just ignore him and don't cave. He can learn to adjust.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Crate in the room? Dog bed for her on the floor? Dog beds for both as a place of banishment if they are disruptive on the bed? Earplugs for your partner while you get this sorted or a spare room if you have one. I agree she's feeling lonely for her people. Good luck!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

When I had one puppy at a time, I would have the puppy sleep in my room in a crate...next to my bed. This time, with the two, I just had them sleep downstairs in their "day beds." They had each other and there was never a problem. Only fairly recently, Maurice decided he wanted to play in the middle of the night. (like human babies sometimes do) Only he's not a baby anymore. Eh-hem. So, because he really was use to sleeping in this way...away from me, I told him to hush and go back to sleep. If we're talking about a young puppy or an only "child," I'd agree that she should probably sleep next to your bed in a crate. But if this is a new development and she's use to sleeping the way she's been sleeping, I'd just try to nip it right now. 

I failed to remember (just went back to re-read) that letting her bark a long time isn't an option because of neighbors. So, in that case, maybe you _do_ need to bring her in next to your bed in a crate or dog bed. You can try telling her to hush if she wakes you in the wee hours. It probably has to be pretty stern or she'll take it as attention, which she might anyhow. Better to ignore but then there's the neighbors to worry about. That_ is _a problem. Hopefully, she'll get over this.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I think that the issue may be that he isn't sleeping with you, or even in the same room, so he is going by his own body clock.
> I tend to have highly variable sleeping hours, but all of my dogs current and past have slept with me, and have slept precisely when and as long as I sleep unless one of them is sick or something, 100% of the time.


Totally agree with TP. My girls do not get up until I do, be it 6am or 10 am. All my poodles have slept with me but Sage, she sleeps in a crate beside of the bed. When I first got her for about a week, she got me up at 3, 5, etc. Now she sleeps just like the others. Went to bed last night at 10, and got up this morning at 10 (overslept). I took Sage to potty patch sit her down, she went and back to bed, but I think that was nerves for new surroundings.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with Dechi and sophie anne that you can undo this. Either do as Dechi did with her SIL's dog and just make it very unfun when you take her out and put her back or ignore it all together. She trained you to give in. It won't take her long to figure out that it doesn't work anymore. Peeves always wants to get up and go out at ridiculously early hours. BF complains and I keep telling him that he let himself be trained by getting up when Peeves starts to whine. If BF is away and it is just us, I don't hear any early morning pleas since he knows it doesn't work on me.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Thank you all for your help and suggestions.

There are some things I'd like to clarify, since I was typing my post on the bus this morning and didn't quite get everything in  

1. Ive already tried the "ignore her" route, with no luck. For a week (while our first neighbors were moved out and new ones not yet moved in) we let her bark. She keeps up the same pattern regardless, and will bark for up to 3 hours (which is when I usually get up around 7:30). Time did not extinguish this. I was unable to keep ignoring her because of #2

2. We can't continue the ignore her route either, since the neighbor that has moved in downstairs is actually our landlord. He asked me yesterday if it was possible for me to keep my dogs quiet until a "normal hour" :/

I'd thought about bringing her crate into our room, but we tried that a few months ago and she would bark for several hours despite hushing. Perhaps now that she's a bit older we will try that again. She's not at all phased by firm hushing or a raised voice. 

If I didn't keep up the ignoring her routine for long enough I can always explain that to my landlord and let him know we're trying that out. He's very nice but is not at all an animal person and clearly wants to sleep past 4:37. Is a week a long enough time? Or should we try that route again (with landlord's permission  )


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

That is certainly a tricky situation with the landlord, the stress of which I can appreciate as a dog-owning apartment dweller myself!!

It depends how amenable your landlord is to letting you try waiting Piper out.

I think for the waiting it out method to work, you have to only get up when she is being _quiet_, so if you had been letting her bark for 3 hours until you got up at 7:30, she will now think that barking from 4:37 till 7:30 is how to get you up. Because of this, the wait it out method may lead to 3.5+ hours of barking per morning... which I am not sure any landlord or neighbor could put up with.

I agree with others who have said that it is probably going to annoy her to be stuck in a crate while she watches her "brother" snuggle with you guys. I would complain in that situation, too.

Do they often play in the bedroom during the day? If so, maybe you should make a rule against it. You could put Piper in your bedroom with the door closed during the day when you aren't urgently needing to sleep or dealing with the morning noise and work on having Jasper and Piper settle while loose in there while you "sleep" in bed. You could use a tie-down to keep Piper off the bed if getting up there is really going to get them revved up. Practicing the desired arrangement might help them know what to do when it's lights-out for real.

Ari knows there is a strict no play in the bedroom rule, so she immediately quiets down once I put her in my bed. It is harder to teach this with two dogs that will reinforce the fun with each other, though...


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Sophie Anne is right. Unfortunately you taught the dog that barking for 3 hours will get you to get up. The single most important rule is to never give a dog a reward (your presence is a reward) when he is doing something annoying or undesired.

So now it will take more than 3 hours to extinguish this behavior. Maybe 4, or even 4 1/2. When you start you have to finish, even if it takes 7 days or more.

Is the landlord taking a vacation soon ? If not, can you go somewhere else where the barking won't be a nuisance to train the dog, like your mom's or a (very understanding) friend ? Or can you buy some earplugs for the landlord to use for a week ? There is a price to pay but after that, hello peace and quiet !

As a general rule, never give in for any reason when a dog is crying or barking. Wait a good 5 minutes after the bad behavior stops. Then do whatever you do. Your dog shouldn't whine even when you decide to sleep in. If he does, wait until he's done for 5 minutes before getting up.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Now with the bigger picture, I do agree with sophie anne and Dechi. She has learned that persistent barking will get attention. I hope you can figure out a way that will not annoy your landlord so much.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I don't know if you have already tried this, but covering the crate with a thick quilt/blanket might help. The closed in feeling and darkness might be soothing to the dog, and the thickness of the quilt could absorb some of the volume/shrillness of the barking. If you are worried about air circulation, you could just cover three sides tightly and do the fourth side rather loosely. We resorted to this when we babysat three Papillons, and it saved our sanity!


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

I've never let her out of her crate while she was actively barking or whining; would just her hearing me moving around the house be reward enough? should I be waiting a certain amount of time? 

Since coffee is a daily habit, I go to the kitchen, and I know she hears me moving around because she stops barking. I wait (usually around 30 seconds - the time it takes to pop in a K-cup) and if she's quiet I let her out. 

The past few days I've been waiting longer (the cup brews and gets creamer added) and then she gets let out. Both my partner and I have been wearing ear plugs and just ignoring the barking, with the landlord's blessing.

I was fairly sure we were on a roll when I woke up this morning to no barking! 
....
turns out my father, who stayed with us last night to cut a road trip in half, heard her crying and though she "might need something" so he was cuddling her on the couch :argh:

we'll start the cycle again tonight and hope the weekend is long enough to make it a habit! 

also, we do have a blanket over her crate which is excellent at muffling her, but not blocking it out entirely


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Ahh the best laid plans do go astray when all parties aren't on the same page. I'm sure you can't be too mad at your dad, but give yourself a little rap on the knuckles for not telling him to ignore her pleading.

It sounds like you were starting to make good progress so one little step backwards shouldn't be too hard to move past.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Ahhhh, it was going so well ! Your father tried to help but not it's back to square one... I am sure it will work out, it just needs a little more time than expected.

Hang in there, you can do it ! ;-)


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Coldbrew said:


> I've never let her out of her crate while she was actively barking or whining; would just her hearing me moving around the house be reward enough? should I be waiting a certain amount of time?
> 
> Since coffee is a daily habit, I go to the kitchen, and I know she hears me moving around because she stops barking. I wait (usually around 30 seconds - the time it takes to pop in a K-cup) and if she's quiet I let her out.
> 
> ...


Glad you have a patient landlord. Sounds like you are off to a good start.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Coldbrew said:


> I've never let her out of her crate while she was actively barking or whining; would just her hearing me moving around the house be reward enough? should I be waiting a certain amount of time?
> 
> Since coffee is a daily habit, I go to the kitchen, and I know she hears me moving around because she stops barking. I wait (usually around 30 seconds - the time it takes to pop in a K-cup) and if she's quiet I let her out.
> 
> ...


In the morning, since she has been in the crate all night long, you are taking a rish by getting up and leaving her in there. It's just too much to ask and you are setting her up for failure. 

Always make sure to give her the best conditions to succeed, even if it means placing her needs before yours (just until she grows up a bit). When you get up, if she's not whining or barking, she should be let out immediately and taken outside for a pee. Even before your coffee or your own toilet break. It's sad and hard, but that's the way it has to be with a puppy for the first few months.

If she's whining or barking, wait until she stops before getting up (your getting up will make her whine and bark because she wants to be with you). When she stops, get up and promptly let her out before she has time to make a sound. Take her outside immediately.


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## Knutdanoodle (Aug 4, 2016)

Hi, I might have missed specific details, but if she is barking in the crate in the morning, have you tried changing it up on her and leaving the crate door open to kind of change gears on her? I know when we were potty training our girl the big concern was being able to make sure she didn't potty while we slept, and also making sure she slept on our schedule. 
We exercised her before bed, then I set a timer on my phone to wake me up every few hours before she woke up, so that I could take her out to potty. As she grew I increased the amount of time I set the alarm for, so she didn't end up with any set wake up schedule. Now that she is fully potty trained she wakes up within a half hour of the alarm going off, and that's fine to me . She's on our schedule otherwise. 
As for barking in the crate, ours whined in it and it broke my heart. When I started leaving the crate open and letting her roam the whining toned down, and then setting the alarm was also very helpful. She would fall asleep in the crate, and I'd get up before she could wake up to wake me up. Then I'd take her out, and put her back in the open crate and stay there til she fell asleep. 

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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Dechi said:


> In the morning, since she has been in the crate all night long, you are taking a risk by getting up and leaving her in there. It's just too much to ask and you are setting her up for failure.


Dechi, I think you are talking about her need to go out and pee immediately? 
If so, the issue isn't that she needs to pee, just that she is barking. She has quite a distinctive "i need out to pee/poo/throw up" bark as well as a "hello world it's me Piper I am ready to be free!"

She (and Jasper) always come before my own needs, but I've learned that Piper won't pee until she's ready, and that's usually about an hour after she's awake, or 15 minutes after she leaves her crate. She's almost 14 months old now, so capable of holding it, but i absolutely agree that were she much younger that I'd be more concerned she was barking to "go" out rather than to be "let" out. 




Knutdanoodle said:


> Hi, I might have missed specific details, but if she is barking in the crate in the morning, have you tried changing it up on her and leaving the crate door open to kind of change gears on her? I know when we were potty training our girl the big concern was being able to make sure she didn't potty while we slept, and also making sure she slept on our schedule.
> 
> As for barking in the crate, ours whined in it and it broke my heart. When I started leaving the crate open and letting her roam the whining toned down, and then setting the alarm was also very helpful. She would fall asleep in the crate, and I'd get up before she could wake up to wake me up. Then I'd take her out, and put her back in the open crate and stay there til she fell asleep.


Unfortunately, leaving the crate open during the night is still an open invitation for Piper to nibble at whatever she can reach and to badger Jasper into playing with her. So that's not an option in our house. Her barking is also not due to being in her crate (she naps there all the time) but rather to being stuck in her crate when she's ready to be awake at 4:30 in the morning.

---

Today she was up at 2:30 barking which is fairly unusual, so I followed advice given in this thread. I took her out, no greeting and no pets. We stood in the darkness for about 5 minutes and she showed no sign of being interested in peeing, pooping, or playing. She just stood around and sniffed a bit. I then took her back in, and rather than toss a few bits of kibble in her crate just said "Good night Pip", and put her back in. She woke up again at 5:30, but I laid in bed until she was quiet for about a minute, then went and got her with lots of praise. She was doubly rewarded for her quiet by rushing to the bedroom and getting a great snack - my earplugs, which I'd forgotten to put back in after our 2:30 adventure. Fortunately she's eaten them before, and they pass out unharmed :yuck:

Fingers crossed we are making progress!


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## Knutdanoodle (Aug 4, 2016)

I forgot to add, exercise before bed! And no naps for 3 hours before bedtime. Since she's older, not napping for that long shouldn't be harmful.

I'm glad she slept so.late. It takes time but she'll figure out what you need from her <3

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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

*Update*

Update on progress:

Due to an unexpected air conditioning malfunction, Piper's crate had to be moved into our bedroom this past week. She very quickly adjusted to the new location (her crate has been in the same spot since we brought her home), and when it's time to sleep she goes straight to the bedroom. Jasper still sleeps in the bed with us, but she doesn't seem to mind at all. 

Best of all - she's stopped barking!

Since I'm a light sleeper I can still tell that she sometimes gets restless around 4:30 and moves around, but she always resettles herself without barking and goes back to sleep. When my girlfriend's alarm goes off at 5:45, I let Piper into the bed and she gets to cuddle for an hour or so before we get up. 

Problem solved - thank you all for your help!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thank you for the update. I am so glad everyone is sleeping better and having a quieter morning.


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## Michelle (Nov 16, 2009)

Glad you solved the problem!

When Yuki was a puppy and we were still living at my parents, he slept in a crate downstairs in the kitchen and would wake up every morning at 6 on the dot ready for breakfast (my mom was always up at that time and would feed him in the am for me if I didn't have to be up early that day). If no one was down there by 6 he would start barking which was annoying on weekends when everyone wanted to sleep in another hour or so.

But once he started sleeping in my room out of his crate and he tried to wake me up to feed him I shoved him off of me and told him to go to sleep. He quickly took a hint and he now sleeps until I wake up or my alarm goes off...sometimes not until 10am on the weekend.

Once my alarm goes off he is awake, but if I hit snooze and tell him to go back to sleep he will.


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