# Ostrich Syndrome--Please read and consider....



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

WOW! Another incredible article! Thank you for sharing these! Just like you've said...another brick in the wall. If people do not disclose, how is one to know IF they are working toward improving a situation? Hopefully things are improving out there, but I do not expect it will make much of a difference in my lifetime.


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

Yaddaluvpoodles,

Excellent post! Hopfully something can be done! 

Epilepsy is a scary thing! We had Shelties, and they do not do well with anesthesia. When we did the hips on one of our girls, we almost lost her! 

Immediately afterward, she developed grand-mals! The line had to be shut down right there and then.... Better safe than sorry... She did live to 18, but even with meds she still got some siezures. It was heartbreaking to watch her go through this!

There are a few studies out there, I have to look them up later... maybe someone else has them handy. There is one for Chronic Hepititis at Colorado State, one for SA, and a few others. Send in samples! Just because your dog is a "Pet" doesn't mean you should not submit! They are very important, as they give us a better picture of a family line, research needs large samples. Most of them just ask for cheek swabs, or samples. Submitting Affecteds is ususlly free, normals, usually nominal. Get it done when you go for a vet visit. Please report to PHR if you have a dog with a problem. The reporting process is now easirer. It is not to punish the breeder, we need the information to make wise breedings!

Good breeders need the tools to test! We already have one for VwB, and NE, we need to get Addisons, SA, and Epilepsy under our belts. Right now, with so much secrecy, and "hiding under the rug", we have to call trusted individuals, and ask for problems not reported in pedigrees. It is hard enough as it is, to find two complementary individuals who aren't closely related! We need to be open, we need to avoid risky breedings, so owners do not have to watch this kind of suffering, and heartbreak. Help give us the tools...

We save material from all of our pups before they leave. That way, if a study comes up, in time, we will have a complete family sample for study. My system is not perfect, but at least we should try.

Paragon


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I do agree with all the precious posters. Disclosure is essential. 

BUT! I will disclose . . or not . . based also on the tendency of some in this forum to completely rip honest people *and breeders* apart for their disclosure.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

Countryboy said:


> I do agree with all the precious posters. Disclosure is essential.
> 
> BUT! I will disclose . . or not . . based also on the tendency of some in this forum to completely rip honest people *and breeders* apart for their disclosure.


 I think the point is Not to disclose on this forum ... but definitely report on Poodle Health Registry


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

Maybe we could start with mandatory reporting. For example, an owner sends in an SA biopsy for evaluation, and the biopsy results (good, bad, or indifferent) are automatically sent to OFA for public reporting. Since, as I recall, typical onset for SA is 13 months to 5 years, any SA report that goes stale is automatically stricken from OFA records. Hell, OFA already shows stale CERF records, so I don't see why they can't post a similar warning buoy re SA.

The task ahead is to sell puppy buyers and others on the concept that only current test results count. Of course, if a dog is listed as SA affected, then there is no appeal/expungement and no need for further testing.

I recognize there is controversy re the SA test, but that's off point. I only used the SA punch biopsy for illustrative purposes.

To even be more Draconian, how about if the owner is not allowed to cherry pick the tests for publication. In other words, post all results or no results will be allowed to be posted.

_Stop treating epilepsy as though you were personally infected with a sexually transmitted disease. _

Now that's a powerful statement!


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## missmygirls (Jun 5, 2012)

Do poodles have a history of seizures. I have not heard this before. My dogs were fine all their lives. What testing do I need to have done when I get my new Poodle?


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Cynthadia said:


> Maybe we could start with mandatory reporting.
> 
> Whoa Nelly! (I must say.. I use to be an advocate for mandatory reporting. It's one of the things I have changed my viewpoint on over the years, as I learned more). While I am an advocate of healthy dogs, mandatory reporting is not only not the way to get us there, it is capable of doing a significant amount of damage to the breed.
> 
> ...


It may sound as if I'm playing both sides of the field. I'm not. I advocate for the sharing of health issues, not covering them up. I also advocate for individual breeding strategies, with diverse goals. When everyone does the same thing, we end up with the same thing.. and when everything is all the same.. well our poodles will not survive that. We have to have diversity in our breed. We need to think about what we agree with, what we support. I like everything nice and tidy, black and white, cut and dry. So if you say testing vs no testing.. for many, many years I said "TEST!", however, as time went by, I finally realized that this is one of those shades of grey issues. As the goal is health, then it is health issues that should be reported and shared and again, testing does not equate good health.


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

I just don't see the downside to posting in a public forum test results of animals that are being used for breeding. The information itself is neutral. What's not neutral is the public's response. But then how is one planning on containing that fire (a metaphor for keeping secret a health issue with a dog)? And, how does one plan a PR strategy when the neighbors already smell smoke?

The smoke might be one SA equivocal test result with no follow up testing. Or, perhaps, SA test results, CERF test results, but curiously no hip results. 

I'm advocating self-serving behavior. Breeders - shout it out...I'm not going to waste my hard-earned money spending thousands of dollars raising, showing, breeding ticking time bombs. Buyers - shout it out...I'm not going to waste my hard-earned money spending thousands of dollars raising and loving a dog that's a ticking time bomb.

Ultimately, the only way to defuse that time bomb is information - and I don't mean selective information to a selective audience on a need to know basis. Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts. 

I can see how selective disclosure (really non-disclosure) might benefit the breeder, but I'll be damned if I can figure out how it benefits the breed. Nothing stops malicious speculation faster than the truth, which is why I'd like to see breeders take a preemptive stance on full disclosure.

Today, I'm as entrenched in my belief about reporting as I was 15 years ago when I first argued it on another list. So even though I'm not willing to change my opinion, I'll sit back and read with interest what others have to say.

Thanks, Yadda, for your very thoughtful response. I always read what you have to say because I'm a sucker for smarts! :act-up:


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

@MissMyGirls-- there is idiopathic epilepsy in some lines of poodles (of all sizes). No genetic markers have been found as of yet. My first standard, Vic, has epilepsy. Three of her offspring have also had seizures. I bred her before she had her first seizure, and the family history had not been disclosed to me. I found out after the fact.. and it is quite a history! Three of her offspring have had seizures. You can find out more on the Poodle Health Registry website.

Darla


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> It may sound as if I'm playing both sides of the field. I'm not. I advocate for the sharing of health issues, not covering them up. I also advocate for individual breeding strategies, with diverse goals. When everyone does the same thing, we end up with the same thing.. and when everything is all the same.. well our poodles will not survive that. We have to have diversity in our breed. We need to think about what we agree with, what we support. I like everything nice and tidy, black and white, cut and dry. So if you say testing vs no testing.. for many, many years I said "TEST!", however, as time went by, I finally realized that this is one of those shades of grey issues. As the goal is health, then it is health issues that should be reported and shared and again, testing does not equate good health.


Although *health testing* does not *guarantee* only healthy dogs are bred it tells the breeder the status of the dog/bitch on certain diseases. There is no test for epilepsy or for The breeder can then decide whether to breed the dog/bitch with an *informed choice* - choice(s) based on science.

The people who buy the puppy from fully health tested parents are guaranteed a few things - for instance if vWd DNA is done on both parents then the puppy is guarenteed not to have or get vWD. I also believe this guarantees a breeder who does not breed with money as the number one priority.

If breeders do not test for the diseases like SA or CERF eyes they may be breeding dogs/bitches affected by cataracts, subclinical SA ect. as you cannot tell by just looking at a poodle if they are subclinical for SA- or if they are genetically blind in one eye.

A breeder who fully health tests is putting the poodles produced first not getting rid of diversity. Diversity is allowing others to make their own decisions including what and when to cull. 

If a breeder wants to breed a poodle that already has hip dysplasia as long as they inform the buyers so the buyer can make an informed decision that works fine for me. The puppy buyers then take on the risk. 

But if you breed without that information in this day and age you are risking diversity because you will not know what you have produced for years.

If breeders do not test in the name of diversity they are just fooling themselves about their *motives for breeding*. 

Hindsight is 20/20 but people, including poodle breeders can justify ANYTHING including - addisonian poodles, vWd affected poodles, thyroid affected poodles. I think the people who want to breed diversity by outlier lines should test and tell the puppy buyer all the test results.

If you do not TEST you cannot TELL.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> Although *health testing* does not *guarantee* only healthy dogs are bred it tells the breeder the status of the dog/bitch on certain diseases.
> 
> Full agreement there, with emphasis on "certain diseases". However, for nongenetic tests, the status of those test results can be misleading.
> 
> ...


If you don't test, you can't tell whether or not your poodles have/carry RD, NE, vWD, DM. Testing should not be used to mislead people into thinking that they are dealing with poodles of health. Testing and the reporting of test results should never be confused with the reporting of health issues. Each is significant in their own way.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Yadda, please don’t feel bad about what happened with Vic. It could have happened to anyone, and you took every precaution you could and dealt with it in the best possible way and are being honest about it. I also think you are a very courageous person to come into a public place with an open identity and admit to making mistakes and having evolving ideals where other people you have never met are able to criticise you. In a way, I think that’s slightly foolish , but that’s maybe more because of the type of person I am, and nevertheless it is admirable however one looks at it.

To add some perspective, I would just like to say that while I personally think it is paramount to breed for genetic diversity and to reduce the incidence of disease, it is not possible to eliminate all disease, and poodles as a breed or even dogs as a species are in no way unique in this respect. Genomes are not like simple computer programs in that they can be debugged and made perfect and replicated an endless number of times without error. They are far too large and complicated for that, and genes by their very nature mutate and develop errors -- many harmful -- in the process of adapting the organisms they build for survival. Everything that is born will die of something, whether it was born in the wild or in an artificial man-made situation. Some will live healthy, trouble-free lives and die at an old age. Others might be sickly, struggle to produce descendants at all, and die prematurely, and others might die before they can breed. Nature doesn’t care. As humans, we are not nature, and we do care. Ironically, nature has given us the ability to be humane as a survival strategy.

I breed birds. Most of the birds I have live (more or less) the length of time they are expected to live, but sometimes a chick will die for no apparent reason, or I will have to kill a bird who has become decrepit or developed a health issue. Other people I know farm sheep or cows etc. and always some of them will die. Dogs and humans are not like other animals, and when a dog or a child becomes ill and perhaps dies, it is very much harder for the people involved and it’s natural to ask why and want someone to blame. But, biologically, children with leukaemia and puppies with Addison’s disease are still animals and the same laws of nature apply.

While it’s important to take responsibility for our own actions and educate ourselves if we are going to make ourselves custodians of the genetic material of a group of animals, it’s also important to recognise that some of this is inevitable. Health testing is not about condemning breeders and dogs or pointing fingers. It’s about education and awareness and giving people the information to make the best decision they can about the breed’s gene pool and its future.


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