# How often should a male be bred?



## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Interesting question. Perhaps in part the answer depends on geography. If a male is being used for many bitches in one geographical area, that is going to concentrate the gene pool in that area. 

But if it is a really good male, tested and ancestors were tested many generations back, perhaps that is more of a plus than a minus.

This is just my speculation. I'm not a breeder and have no intention of getting into it. As a buyer, I want to know that the parents, grand-parents, and great-grandparents have been tested and are genetically and temperamentally quality dogs. If my pup's earlier siblings, cousins, and other relatives are quality dogs, that helps make the buying decision easier. It wouldn't matter to me if the sire had bred a lot of other dogs. If anything, it would be a plus if I knew those other dogs had won championships, or obedience and/or agility titles.


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## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

When you have a male like Ch. Alekai Mikimoto on Fifth, he has already produced hundreds of puppies and he won Westminster and retired from showing about 6 years ago 9maybe more) I think he betters the Gene Pool and contributes to a better STANDARD. It gives consumers a choice between correct and makes the incorrect stand out more pronoucedly.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

OK lets put it this way- our reason for breeding females no more then once a year is a health thing. 

We do the same thing with horses (Well we don't skip a year *L* but one baby/year type thing) so a female can only have 1/year... just mathimatically (11 month gestation) 

but the males- can be bred HUNDREDS of times a year. Health wise- most stallions are not collected or bred more then 1x a day. Some stallions need every other day. Depending on what else they are doing. Most agree fit healthy stallions keep their fertility up best and longest. So most get some sort of work daily as well. Some stallions (mine) breed once and are EXHAUSTED for a few days... 

SO how often? Health wise. i'd say during breeding season (so what a month in spring a month in fall ish) no more hten once a day. Now lets be honest- how many males ever get near that much breeding? even the top boys? 

now often should we see offspring coming from a male? I guess it depends- if he's a fabulous stud- and is not being bred to females closely related why wouldn't you? if he's BETTEr then the female why wouldn't you?


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

I think it goes back to the females again. What females is he being bred to? So often it seems a sub par bitch is bred to an outstanding stud(in different breeds). I'm not saying the bitch has to be the westminster winner or anything but when the nice stud is bred to just "anything" for a stud fee, then this is counterproductive in my opinion. This happens in Chihuahuas a lot because it is easier to get your hands on a champion male.


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

partial2poodles said:


> When you have a male like Ch. Alekai Mikimoto on Fifth, he has already produced hundreds of puppies and he won Westminster and retired from showing about 6 years ago 9maybe more) I think he betters the Gene Pool and contributes to a better STANDARD. It gives consumers a choice between correct and makes the incorrect stand out more pronoucedly.


The problem is that along with the good qualities come the not so desirable ones. We saw the effects of Eaton Affirmed...wonderful conformation but plenty of health issues.
As you brought him up specifically, I know of two pups from one litter by Miki that have bloated. So there's hundreds of siblings out there that may have his beautiful looks, but also have half-siblings that have bloated.
My question relates more to the good of the breed as a whole, while maintaining genetic diversity. Personally, I think that popular sire syndrome is detrimental to the breed. I just wondered what others thought was 'too much' of a good thing.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

partial2poodles said:


> When you have a male like Ch. Alekai Mikimoto on Fifth, he has already produced hundreds of puppies and he won Westminster and retired from showing about 6 years ago 9maybe more) I think he betters the Gene Pool and contributes to a better STANDARD. It gives consumers a choice between correct and makes the incorrect stand out more pronoucedly.


And this is precisely where I would strongly disagree with you.
This is the perfect example of breeders EXHASTING standard pedigrees with the same male over and over again. One that not only passes on his good gene, phenotypically and genotypically but ALSO the bad ones.
Pls. dont forget that winning in the ring is not everything and most breeders will agree that over usage of one sire in particular can damage more than protect the breed. A wider range of stud dogs should be used by breeders so that the breed as a whole (in this case the variety... standard) will not knowingly paint itself into a corner. There are so many breeders now seeking white stud dogs who do not go back to a popular sire or include him in the pedigree. Conscientious breeders want to diversify their breeding program and usage of different males in order to not limit the gene pool.
Unfortunately the common practice these days is to follow the I WANT TO WIN AT ANY COST crowd regardless of what the popular sire produces in terms of health and temperament. Two issues which should be first and formost a consideration above all wins or conformation attributes.
I may get into hot water with my post here, but I have always said it as it is.
We DESPERATELY need pedigree diversity and usage of a popular stud will culminate in us not being able to have this wonderful breed in the distant future, if we continue to ONLY breed to the dog of the moment or the most winning stud dog. There are many stunning dogs who can be wonderful producers and are not recognized because their owners do not have some of the funds that are poured into successfully extensively campagined show dogs.. but this does not mean they are not worthy, both as a stud and show dog.


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

whitepoodles said:


> There are many stunning dogs who can be wonderful producers and are not recognized because their owners do not have some of the funds that are poured into successfully extensively campagined show dogs.. but this does not mean they are not worthy, both as a stud and show dog.


excellent point


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Vibrant said:


> The problem is that along with the good qualities come the not so desirable ones. We saw the effects of Eaton Affirmed...wonderful conformation but plenty of health issues.
> As you brought him up specifically, I know of two pups from one litter by Miki that have bloated. So there's hundreds of siblings out there that may have his beautiful looks, but also have half-siblings that have bloated.
> My question relates more to the good of the breed as a whole, while maintaining genetic diversity. Personally, I think that popular sire syndrome is detrimental to the breed. I just wondered what others thought was 'too much' of a good thing.
> 
> ...


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

Vibrant I totally am in agreement with you.. Just curious WHO are you.. You are in Ontario but cant put my finger on who you are. Is it a secret if not please divulge your name.. I VERY MUCH like your views on breeding, and in general. I respect many things you have posted on this forum. If you do not wish to divulge your name.. I will respect this.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Ora.
No secret. My name is Vivienne Swarbreck. I'm the Versatility Chair, Associate Editor of the Newsletter and interim Treasurer of the Poodle Club of Canada. I've picked up many of my views by being very involved in the club and surrounding myself with highly respected and knowledgable breeders and trainers in the area. I'm delighted that you and I share the same philosophies!!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Vibrant said:


> Vibrant I totally am in agreement with you.. Just curious WHO are you.. You are in Ontario but cant put my finger on who you are. Is it a secret if not please divulge your name.. I VERY MUCH like your views on breeding, and in general. I respect many things you have posted on this forum. If you do not wish to divulge your name.. I will respect this.


Thank you, Ora.No secret. My name is Vivienne Swarbreck. I'm the Versatility Chair, Associate Editor of the Newsletter and interim Treasurer of the Poodle Club of Canada. I've picked up many of my views by being very involved in the club and surrounding myself with highly respected and knowledgable breeders and trainers in the area. I'm delighted that you and I share the same philosophies!![/QUOTE]

Vivienne:
I had a feeling it was you but didnt want to tread on privacy. I am glad you divulged because I have heard SO MANY wonderful things about you from R. Koch. She always spoke very highly of you and I have also heard wonderful stuff about you from others in the breed. I admire your ethics and philosophy about breeding and am glad you feel the same about mine. The breed needs to be protected and am glad that many of us are doing just that. Nice to be able to chat with you here and I hope we get a chance to meet one day.


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks for your kind words, Ora. No doubt we'll meet one day!
I hope to make a positive contribution to the diversity of the standard poodle gene pool, however small it may be! 
I'm so afraid of what may happen to the breed if we see too many more 'dogs of the day', that people line up to breed their bitches to. You said it better than I can earlier in this thread, Ora, and if you get into hot water about it, I'll be joining you there!!


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Vibrant, thanks so much for your comments.

I have a Canadian dog, too, from Palman Poodles.

Now, here is my question: I am not a breeder and have no desire to be. Nearly all of the breeders I spoke with during my puppy search insisted on a spay/neuter clause in the contract. Personally I'm fine with that. 

But do spay/neuter clauses perhaps indirectly contribute to the popular sire/bitch problem? I don't know how many non-show dog owners would actually be interested in breeding, but I'd bet that a) at least some of the dogs sold as pets would be very good to excellent breeding prospects, but b) most dog owners just are not interested in showing or competing. Doesn't mean their dogs are actually inferior in any way.

Do breeders ever want to ask a pet buyer "please don't neuter your dog; if he/she matures as I predict, I would like to use your dog in my breeding program two or three years down the road, after appropriate testing."

I would think such a statement would be almost unimaginable, but wonder if that type of relationship between breeder and pet buyer would foster more genetic diversity.

I did in fact have a correspondence with one breeder who wanted to sell me a dog on a co-ownership contract for just that sort of situation; I refused as I did not know her, she lived on the opposite coast, and I just didn't see how it could work out. I turned down a very nice dog because of it. But it did get me thinking, a little bit, about how/when a breeder might ask for such a situation.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Vibrant said:


> Thanks for your kind words, Ora. No doubt we'll meet one day!
> I hope to make a positive contribution to the diversity of the standard poodle gene pool, however small it may be!
> I'm so afraid of what may happen to the breed if we see too many more 'dogs of the day', that people line up to breed their bitches to. You said it better than I can earlier in this thread, Ora, and if you get into hot water about it, I'll be joining you there!!



LOL Vivienne, well said. I have gotten myself into hot water before being straight upfront and not sugar coating. In our breed however people like you and I who are honest upfront and do not shove (genetic) dirt under the rug are considered I am afraid to say "trouble makers".
We are the ambassadores of this wonderful breed and I would not mind making trouble or "waves" as long as it helps to protect this breed from extinction. I was asked once by someone (in another breed) why I am in a breed which suffers from so many genetic issues and I replied because they are worth it, because there is no other breed I will ever breed, show or live with and because I honestly believe that through hard work and comittment we as breeders can work to save this breed. We have already isolated the gene marker for NEwS, VwD, JRD (well still controversial...)and are doing a ton of research on SA, Epi and AD... I have no doubt that one day we will be able to also isolate the gene markers for the aforementioned, so to me I will always judiciously choose my breedings in the hope that I dont make a mistake and if I do, I will spay/neuter and start again.. Standard Poodles are my passion ...


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

Beach girl said:


> Vibrant, thanks so much for your comments.
> 
> I have a Canadian dog, too, from Palman Poodles.
> 
> ...


Breeders tend to keep their females, and let their males go. It would be nice to see more males being kept as breeding stock. Many breeders have foster programs..mainly for their females...again, it would be nice to see more males kept intact this way.
Co-owns can be murky..I think you were wise to turn it down, especially if you did not know the breeder.
I think popular sire syndrome comes mainly from the desire to breed a top winning show dog. Everyone flocks to the latest big winner. In fact, it would be wise to go to the sire (or dam) of that top winning show dog to get the traits that are desirable in that dog.
Beach girl....were you at PCA this year? If you were, did you stay at the host hotel? If you did, do you remember the two silver standard poodles that were staying there too?


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