# Bijou Poodles Ontario Canada



## Brodie

I thought it would be of assistance to potential puppy purchasers to hear of our experience with the above noted breeder in Ontario. I will try to be factual and hope that this is not contrary to the rules, and that the moderator will not remove this post. I would welcome a pm from the moderator if there is something about this post that offends.

We bought a male brown standard from Bijou in May of 2010. We were obliged to endorse her odd-ball contract that I have seen reproduced elsewhere on this forum. However, otherwise the breeder seemed reasonable and responsible and the pup, Brodie, turned out to be everything we had hoped. Wonderful disposition, got along great with our other dogs (Portuguese Water dog and a mixed 'Benji' type) and the cat. Easily trained. Great dog.

Brodie did great for the first year. But at about 16 months, he started to loose vigor and loose weight. We changed foods, etc.etc. but it persisted. We went to the vet and had various tests done. Cardiac function was ok but his renal function was marginal. We decided to do x-rays. These revealed a heart that was slightly less than half normal size for his age/weight and a diaphragm that was very oddly displaced towards the heart; potentially herniated. This was extremely abnormal anatomy.

We contacted Bijou who, although sympathetic, immediately asserted that the dog had been given a clean bill of health when she delivered it - at 9 weeks - and that anything going on now was likely the result of environmental factors. This without even having seen the x-rays. Our vet - a very experienced guy - was in no doubt that these were congenital abnormalities and that the dog was failing because of them. Over the next two weeks Brodie lost more weight and vigor. He could not run to the end of the front walk, let along chase the other dogs around as he had been doing and, eventually, he just sort-of stood in the yard in a daze. 

We tried everything to stimulate his appetite but he gradually became dehydrated and disoriented and we had to put him down at about 18 months. 

We notified the Breeder and provided her with our vet's report and a disc of the x-rays. Her reply was to, firstly, assert that she had no responsibility whatsoever for this situation because we could not prove that the problem was congenital and that she, therefore, was under no obligation to offer us any sort of compensation. However, she then said that, in order to maintain 'good public relations', she would offer us a replacement puppy from a forthcoming litter. She then asked for a euthanasia certificate.

We found this Breeder's insensitivity and lack of professionalism at such a difficult time, as appalling. However, we loved the dog she had given us, had no reason to think that such an event would likely occur again and, frankly, hoped to avoid spending $1500 and coming out with nothing. We swallowed our anger and accepted her offer.

The next day the Breeder emailed us a "Confidentiality Agreement" which she had obviously drawn up herself. The deal was; we had to acknowledge that the death was not due to any congenital condition, and that we would, in any event, never discuss anything related to this situation with anyone, on pain of some bizarre financial penalty. In exchange for endorsing this ridiculous document, she would graciously give us another puppy.

We declined to endorse that agreement, but did offer a much simplified version. I advised her that if she signed it in 7 days, so would we. But I cautioned her that although we loved her dog and recognized that even the best of breeders must produce the occasional animal that has problems, it was her complete lack of compassion and professionalism that I would want others to know about. Loved the dog, and miss him terribly, but the Breeder is not someone I could recommend to anyone else.

I'm sorry if this is long-winded. It may get cut or removed. I've tried to be objective and I can produce any of the correspondence arising if anyone wants to pm me. This was a very difficult time for us; made worse by a Breeder who just doesn't seem to have the kind of values that one would hope to find in the dog world.

Brian J.


----------



## bpk082

Your not the only one that has come across her non professionalism. Many have warned against her ways and got their post deleted. Its sad that the TRUTH becomes deleted in this forum. That's why I RARELY post on this site. I found other forums that are persevering the breed and Ethical Breeding practices. Sorry for your loss. I support your post,though it will get deleted as well. I protest with you!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Brodie...I am so sorry you have had to suffer such pain. Losing a young dog is bad enough, but going through this with the breeder is inexcusable. Thank you for sharing your story. It might help someone else along the way.


----------



## Rowan

Brodie:
I'm so sorry for your loss. Losing a beloved companion is difficult and at the very least I'd expect some compassion from the breeder. I'd also expect them to do the "right thing" and handle the situation in a professional manner. I know reputations are everything in the breeding world, but no line is perfect and it's how a breeder rises to these challenges that's telling, IMHO. It would appear we have an epic fail based on your story / situation.

Granted, I'm not privy to your individual conversations with Bijou and I always remind myself that there are two sides to every story. However, I don't see any reason for your thread to be deleted. That's censorship at best and ridiculous to boot. You have every right to share your experience and express your opinion. 

_Having said that..._

*It's on each and every one of us to do our own research when looking for a puppy or considering breeders.* For example, I have a Cabryn Poodle who I love and not every post on here is favorable toward his breeder either. I did my own research and I don't regret adopting my little guy (from another breeder). 

So, in summary, while I'm not questioning the OP, I wanted to make the point that I hope this thread doesn't turn into a lynching of Bijou because I'm sure for every complaint, there are just as many satisfied and happy customers out there (Cavon's Finnegan is but one PF example). I hope everyone can remain objective and keep it civil.

Sometimes the world of breeding reminds me of professional football. Many are fervently loyal to their teams and there exists fierce rivalry between specific teams. Competition brings out the best though because it keeps the players on their toes.


----------



## jfo

I am so sorry for your loss. Losing a young dog is so painful. Don't let your experience tarnish your sweet memories of Brodie.


----------



## peppersb

I am very sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing your experience.

I am very impressed that you were unwilling to sign an agreement that you thought was unreasonable. Too many people sign whatever is put in front of them. Frankly, I don't think that getting a replacement dog is the kind of thing that should involve a contract that has to be reviewed by a lawyer or one that contains any unusual clauses at all. The irony of it is that if she had just given you a replacement puppy with no confidentiality agreement, you probably would have told one or two friends about your experience, but pretty quickly moved on to focusing on the new pup. As it is, you are telling a much wider circle. So did the breeder get the confidentiality that she wanted? I guess not. Too bad that people can't just let their professional reputations stand on who they actually are and what people actually do think of them.


----------



## zyrcona

I am sorry to read about Brodie's illness and death. :-(



peppersb said:


> The irony of it is that if she had just given you a replacement puppy with no confidentiality agreement, you probably would have told one or two friends about your experience, but pretty quickly moved on to focusing on the new pup.


This. Offering a replacement dog was the decent decision. I think the most responsible thing to do would be to offer a choice of a replacement or at least a good portion of refund of what you paid. Some people are not great at dealing with people and being sympathetic, but I would have expected the breeder to take more interest in trying to find out _why _the dog died. I think the most unreasonable part of this story is that the breeder wants you to sign the Official Secrets Act over the matter. Breeding and selling puppies means running a business, like it or not, and if you want people to say nice things about your business, you give them reasons to. You don't try to bribe or blackmail them into not saying bad things.


----------



## petitpie

I'm sorry for the loss of your poodle and your unhappy experience. Your story will help to caution others.


----------



## Paragon

Hello Brian,

So sad for your loss of Brodie. I am sure he was a sweet boy. It is totally unacceptable to ask for a confidentiality agreement! Things can happen, dogs can be ill, despite all the testing in the world, and screening of bloodlines. This is not an excuse. 

As good breeders, we need to find out why, not blame the owner, and look to hide things under the rug. The usual vet checks done on pups, are that, a check. The vet only spends a few minutes with each pup. Some of us do eyes as well. I don't imagine many of us breeders x-ray, and do a full blood spectrum on pups before letting them go home (the x-rays would actually be quite harmful). You would do well to send the vet report to the Poodle Health Registry. Their forms are a pain, I know, but the information is priceless to reputable breeders. It is important for breeding decisions to know which dogs produced the anomilies like your sweet boy had. Do you have the names of the Sire and Dam? 

I am glad you didn't sign the confidentially agreement! I wouldn't ask for anything other than an acceptance of my apologies, and an offer of another pup, or some type of refund, if the owner preferred.

You went through enough, not to mention vet bills, and still don't have your baby in your arms! I am from the area, and aware of her and her dogs. Sad indeed.

I do hope this post remains.


----------



## Countryboy

Brodie said:


> We notified the Breeder and provided her with our vet's report and a disc of the x-rays. Her reply was to, firstly, assert that she had no responsibility whatsoever for this situation because we could not prove that the problem was congenital and that she, therefore, was under no obligation to offer us any sort of compensation. However, she then said that, in order to maintain 'good public relations', she would offer us a replacement puppy from a forthcoming litter. She then asked for a euthanasia certificate.
> 
> We found this Breeder's insensitivity and lack of professionalism at such a difficult time, as appalling.


I disagree. Sometimes professionals have to cover bases that the average person thinks are waaaay over the top. They're not. They're mostly CYA clauses that we've had to include to protect ourselves. 



Brodie said:


> The next day the Breeder emailed us a "Confidentiality Agreement" which she had obviously drawn up herself.


Maybe she thot she needed another clause. Just in case. So had to draw up a new one. 



Brodie said:


> We declined to endorse that agreement


I probably wouldn't have, either.


----------



## PoodlePowerBC

So sorry for your loss :sad: 
I hate stories like this, having lived through much the same experience with our last Spoo (Roscoe), who died of a heart attack before his 6th Bday. He was never as hearty as the boy we live with now, right from a puppy. Roscoe was the reason we discovered Pet Insurance. I thought I did due diligence researching, this pup was from a local breeder, great references, yada yada. When he bloated at 15 months I let her know, no answer, and when He died before 6 years I let her know ... no answer. All I can say is register on Poodle Health Registry!!! That is the least I figured I could do at the time! The breeder is still in business, still has rave reviews by BC Children's Hospital among others. But I didn't choose her for my second Spoo.
Having said that, Russell is a Bijou dog. He is all I can ask for! Maybe he's not perfect conformation,he may have health issues down the road (But I hope not!!!), maybe not from a perfect breeder, but I've spent a LOT of time on this forum and cruising the internet, and haven't found the PERFECT breeder yet. (Not even here :afraid: ) I talked to many, many Bijou owners before I made my decision! There was more good than bad regarding the personality and health of these dogs. I was never planning on taking the breeder home with me, so her personality was never even an issue.
I for one don't like the Breeder bashing I've had to endure, but don't agree with some of the Bijou ways. But I feel the health testing was great, I definitely got what I paid for, and hope I never have to go through what you did with my sweet baby. I feel learning has happened, in part thanks to this forum.
Again, I am soo sorry for your loss and your experience


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Okay...call me stupid here...but if a breeder is asking for a signed confidentiality agreement before they will give a grieving family a replacement puppy, would that be the norm for this breeder? Would this be why we see little to no dogs of theirs listed on the Poodle Health Registry as having had health issues? I have to say, if this is the case, as a fellow breeder, this concept is terrifying! How can we possibly track health issues if owners become legally bound not to disclose them. And how many people with broken hearts would sign one to get a puppy to begin getting over their grief. My guess is most. They just want to put the issue behind them and heal. WOW! Not good at all!!


----------



## Apres Argent

Please send this information to PHR so at least breeders working to improve health know the issue is there! There is an updated version of the form that is very simplistic. 

http://www.poodlehealthregistry.org/docs/PHR_RegistrationForm_0212.pdf


----------



## PoodlePowerBC

Apres Argent said:


> Please send this information to PHR so at least breeders working to improve health know the issue is there! There is an updated version of the form that is very simplistic.
> 
> http://www.poodlehealthregistry.org/docs/PHR_RegistrationForm_0212.pdf


I totally agree here. I feel this is extremely important!! I believe the info on this site holds more to the credibility of the breeder (personally) than opinions of other breeders. I am sorry, but breeding seems quite competitive, and PHR is there for the world to see. I feel we have a responsibility as owners to report on our Poodles, which in turn holds our breeders responsible.
I hope I worded this right :confused2:


----------



## Brodie

*Thanks*

Thank you to everyone for your kind thoughts on the loss of our young Brodie. And also for your consideration of this situation. As I said; we acknowledged that even the best of breeders is going to have an occasional pup with problems. We would not have been critical of the breeder on that basis and, if you'll notice, we have not been. What we felt others should be aware of is the way in which the breeder approached the situation. As others have observed; had she dealt with this with more sensitivity and professionalism we would have had no cause for complaint or to warn others. On the contrary, we likely would have wanted others to know how responsible she had been in the face of, what for her too, must have been a difficult situation.

In any event, it was what it was. We have all of the information that the poodle health registry appears to require. Thanks for telling us about that. We will submit that information, and the lab tests and digital x-rays, and hope that it will help.

Brian J.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Brodie said:


> Thank you to everyone for your kind thoughts on the loss of our young Brodie. And also for your consideration of this situation. As I said; we acknowledged that even the best of breeders is going to have an occasional pup with problems. We would not have been critical of the breeder on that basis and, if you'll notice, we have not been. What we felt others should be aware of is the way in which the breeder approached the situation. As others have observed; had she dealt with this with more sensitivity and professionalism we would have had no cause for complaint or to warn others. On the contrary, we likely would have wanted others to know how responsible she had been in the face of, what for her too, must have been a difficult situation.
> 
> In any event, it was what it was. We have all of the information that the poodle health registry appears to require. Thanks for telling us about that. We will submit that information, and the lab tests and digital x-rays, and hope that it will help.
> 
> Brian J.


Good for you! If you have any trouble with the forms, there are folks here that will be happy to help you with them.


----------



## plumcrazy

I'm sorry for your hearbreaking loss. No amount of time ever seems to be enough, but when a promising young life is cut so short, it's such a shame!

Thank you for sharing your experiences with others here. You won't find a more supportive group of people - most of us have experienced the loss of a furry family member and we know how hard it is to face.

Barb


----------



## Yaddaluvpoodles

*This is truly tragic....*

Brian, I am so sorry for the loss of your poodle as well as the heartbreak and suffering you have experienced related to that loss. As always, with all health issues, I encourage you to register the health issue with PHR.


I hope everyone here will keep in mind a really critical concept regarding PHR. PHR is not, and never has been a way to hold breeders accountable. It is not and never has been a weapon. There are still a number of breeders who are opposed to it.. and one of the terms that has been used regarding PHR is that it can be "weaponized". Folks, if you REALLY truly care about poodles, you will continue to focus on the great stuff that PHR does and is capable of doing. There are many breeders out there who support PHR. There are many more who are undecided and there are even more who, at this time are not in support of PHR for a variety of reasons. There are many breeders who post here on PF who do not report health issues they have dealt with to PHR. It is hoped that more and more breeders will become aware of, support and utilize PHR. But I can absolutely 100% guarantee that if PHR is "weaponized" and used as a "hater" tool.. that it will quickly lose all breeder support. That is not in anyone's best interests at all. Being a breeder is not an easy thing. One wrong move, one mistake can cause a breeder to be ostracized for a very long time. For years breeder's rarely, if ever disclosed health issues. What we refer to as the "wall of silence" was very strong and even a muttering of a health issue could destroy a breeder's reputation. Time's have changed a bit. Most breeder's are now accepting that they are human, there is only so much they can do towards having healthy pups and poodles, beyond that, things are simply out of their control. PHR was designed to help address some of the bigger issues in Poodle Health.. as such, it is actually to the benefit of all breeders to openly utilize it and post their health issues. More and more breeder's are realizing this.. it's a slow process. But if people attempt to use PHR against breeders, the long term effect will be to undermine and destroy Poodle Health Registry. It's important to educate breeder's who don't know better to the use of PHR and why that might be a desireable thing. I would encourage each and everyone to keep things positive, not be haters regarding PHR. 

Thank you all!
Darla


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Apres Argent said:


> Please send this information to PHR so at least breeders working to improve health know the issue is there! There is an updated version of the form that is very simplistic.
> 
> http://www.poodlehealthregistry.org/docs/PHR_RegistrationForm_0212.pdf


I am happy to see they have simplified things.


----------



## PoodlePowerBC

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> I hope everyone here will keep in mind a really critical concept regarding PHR. PHR is not, and never has been a way to hold breeders accountable. It is not and never has been a weapon. There are still a number of breeders who are opposed to it.. and one of the terms that has been used regarding PHR is that it can be "weaponized". Folks, if you REALLY truly care about poodles, you will continue to focus on the great stuff that PHR does and is capable of doing.


I don't think it's fair to say these posts are about using PHR as a weapon. I believe it's more a tool. And as Standard Poodle owners, I think the least that we can do is register our Poodles, which should "help" keep "our" breeders accountable. I can see that not every poodle is registered, but it is an aid in researching poodles that I am thankful for and utilizing. Every breeder I have seriously considered has dogs on the site, although not every poodle. 
I can understand your concern though


----------



## Countryboy

Apres Argent said:


> Please send this information to PHR so at least breeders working to improve health know the issue is there! There is an updated version of the form that is very simplistic.
> 
> http://www.poodlehealthregistry.org/docs/PHR_RegistrationForm_0212.pdf


I like that new form. Something I can fill out, print, and simply take it to my vet for her to sign. 

Easy, peasy!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

This is so much easier than thee paperwork that used to be required. No excuses now not to do it!


----------



## Melodyp77

I'm just happy that you got this message out. I have been looking for a breeder for some time and I have found that most will say that they do testing on their site but when I talk to them they say that they haven't done this or that. they skip some of the test. I'm very nervous about buying a show quality pup and one that I would want to eventually breed. So letting me know as well as others about your experience was helpful. :amen:


----------



## Keithsomething

Melodyp77 said:


> I'm just happy that you got this message out. I have been looking for a breeder for some time and* I have found that most will say that they do testing on their site but when I talk to them they say that they haven't done this or that*. they skip some of the test. I'm very nervous about buying a show quality pup and one that I would want to eventually breed. So letting me know as well as others about your experience was helpful. :amen:


(bolding mine)

That part concerns me the most about the buying public...just because a breeder does all the health testing recommended by the breed club does NOT mean they won't produce an issue...

It really bothers me that people feel that they just because all the tests are done means that they're safe from health issues, you aren't and you never will be 100% secure especially in poodles


----------



## petitpie

Please correct me if this is worng, but I seem to be reading that testing will "stack the deck" in favor of "fewer" health problems. Is "testing" advice recommended for this reason?


----------



## zyrcona

petitpie said:


> Please correct me if this is worng, but I seem to be reading that testing will "stack the deck" in favor of "fewer" health problems. Is "testing" advice recommended for this reason?


Addison's, SA, bloat, and epilepsy, among some others, cannot be genetically tested for or guaranteed against. The only safeguard against them is to avoid breeding together dogs who both have recent ancestors known to have or have been related to sufferers. This should reduce the risk, but can never eliminate it. 

Cancer is currently thought to be part random chance, part genetic, part lifestyle, and part high COI. Hip dysplasia has a genetic component but is also thought to be in part related to overfeeding growing puppies. Breeding dogs with low hip scores together is believed to decrease the likelihood of hip problems occurring in the puppies.

However, genetic diseases that have been mapped, such as VWD, neonatal encephalopathy, etc. can be tested for and if the tests are used judiciously, these diseases can be guaranteed not to occur in the puppies.


----------



## Melodyp77

I wasn't saying testing clears any dog of not getting recessive genes or that testing is full proof. what i said was that they are being misleading on their site by saying they do test when they don't. it gives us, the gen public assurance that what your getting is a thoroughly tested parent dogs when in fact your not. If I was your average joe I would think that testing means there would be no health issues. Alas I am not. I know that with all the health testing put in place never guarantees no health issues. At least as breeders we should be fourth right about what if any testing is none rather then say full testing and only have done the, DM, NEWS but not the hips, cerf, WVD.


----------



## Rayah-QualitySPs

petitpie said:


> Please correct me if this is worng, but I seem to be reading that testing will "stack the deck" in favor of "fewer" health problems. Is "testing" advice recommended for this reason?


Dear Petitpie;
It is certainly my belief that if a breeder *fully* health tests their poodles to the Versatility In Poodles standard the *odds* are definitely in "*favour*" of *fewer* health problems.

I also believe if the breeder fully health tests all they poodles with the test available - this includes the yearly Cerf, SA and thyroid disease within one year of breeding- you will probably find a breeder who is more *open and honest about issues* like bloat and epilepsy they may have produced. Seeing the health testing paperwork or results of testing on OFA is part of being a *smart poodle purchaser*.

A good breeder breeds for more than just *money* or to have another show dog and wants to produce *healthy* pets that have great *homes*.


----------



## Brodie

Bijou Standard Poodles

I just thought I should let everyone know that with the blessing of my vet, I have completed all the necessary paperwork to register our now deceased "Brodie" with the "Poodle Health Registry."
We have not heard a word from Bijou Poodles since our last communication (February 2012) when we refused to sign her "Confidentiality Agreement" in order to obtain a new pup.
We are most disappointed and very discouraged as there has been no further concern voiced for our loss, no offer of monetary compensation or need on Bijou's part to register "Brodie's" obvious congenital defects on the PHR.
We loved our "Brodie" but it was an obvious mistake on our part in trusting and purchasing our boy from Bijou.
I hope this will protect other future poodle owners who are considering purchasing a pup from Bijou either as a pet or with breeding rights.
Please be careful!

Maxine Jones


----------



## petitpie

Thank you for your information for future puppy buyers and breeders with respect to PHR. I can imagine that others would be too sad over the loss of a pet to do what you did.


----------



## Fluffyspoos

Thank you for being brave and doing the right thing. I'm so sorry for your loss.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

I am sure this entire ordeal has been heart wrenching and difficult for you, but I believe you have done the right thing by getting this onto PHR. Have you sent the paperwork in yet? How is your puppy search going? I wish you a long, happy, healthy life with whatever puppy you end up with in the future!!


----------



## Rayah-QualitySPs

Countryboy said:


> I disagree. Sometimes *professionals* have to cover bases that the average person thinks are waaaay over the top. They're not. They're mostly CYA clauses that *we've had to* include to protect ourselves.


First let me say I am very sorry that any poodle buyer has to deal with a dog that is not healthy. How you deal with problems in your puppies lets others know your ethical personality.

Gee Countryboy the quote above is what makes me think you *work for your breeder*. Are you some sort of professional that has had to Cover Your A**? What is with the we've?

Professional breeders - give me a break. A professional is someone with initials after their name. Breeding dogs should be about the health and welfare of the bitch and her puppies, not how much can I make off the uterus of this poor bitch.

If Bijou put the puppy first and really communicated with the owners the owners probably would have been happy just to have Bijou admit the problem.


----------



## Countryboy

Naw, Rayah. A professional is someone who makes his living doing whatever he's doing.

I make my living renting properties. U would not believe the clauses that I've had to add to agreements over the years. To protect myself from the unimaginable behaviour of some tenants... 



Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> If Bijou put the puppy first and really communicated with the owners the owners probably would have been happy just to have Bijou admit the problem.


I totally agree...

***Don't 'Gee' me again if u expect any more answers.


----------



## petitpie

The responsible breeder would;

Offer sympathy to the pet's owner and 
Offer a replacement puppy at no charge.

Negative comments concerning the breeder have been very costly in these other circumstances.


----------



## Rayah-QualitySPs

Countryboy said:


> ***Don't 'Gee' me again if u expect any more answers.


Dear Countryboy;

Sorry the Gee irritated you. It was meant to be a play on your name. Countryboy=Gee Haw


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

We have not heard from Maxine or Brian in a long time, and I was wondering if they got a new puppy and how things were going if they did. I am sorry to resurrect an old thread, but saw in the Quicklinks that lots of guests were viewing it, which got me to wondering how the OP's were doing.


----------



## BigRedDog

*My condolences*

I'm so sorry to hear about your experience, I had a similar with my first Purebred dog years ago who was a Golden Retriever. I was going to try my hand at showing and this was so long ago, the breed was not well known at the time (1970). We found the dog to be have severe hip dysplasia before one year old and tried to discuss this with the breeder. We only wanted the "Show Quality price" to be refunded, and to pay for a pet quality dog, because she obviously had to be spayed.
The breeder told us to put her to sleep and we were also shocked and disgusted by that.
It's terrible to hear this similar thing because I know that the reputable Poodle breeders do many kinds of tests including the CHIC registry. Which are expensive but worth it in order to have a healthy pet. I don't think, this behavior is the norm for Standard Breeders, and I hope you try again with another. They are wonderful dogs.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

I just wanted to say what an incredible pleasure it was to meet you At the Monarch Kennel Club show Maxine!! To finally put a face to the story and to meet your hunky white Classique boy! I had no idea at Erie Shores who we were up against, because DUH...I did not buy a catalogue. Were you there too? He is lovely, and I wish you and Tanis luck is acquiring his championship. May you enjoy MANY happy, healthy years with your boy. Please tell Tanis thank you for helping us meet. We could have walked past one another 100 times and had no idea we were both at the show without her help.


----------



## cavon

trolling much, arreau??????


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

PARDON ME????!!! Forgive me Cavon for having met this woman last weekend and mentioning that on a forum we are commonly members of! TROLLING? OK!


----------



## Paragon

Cavon, I would suggest the Troll is not Cherie! She cares! Her comment does not hurt you. There are friendly, pleasant Poodle people out there.

Maxine, sorry I missed you at our show Erie Shores and Monarch. I hope I will be able to meet you in person sometime. 

I have seen your boy, and he is lovely! I hope to see you next week in Tillsonburg. I am glad things are much better in your home, now that you again have a lovely Poodle to spoil again. You will find this breeder always supportive of her puppies and people.

Paragon


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Paragon said:


> Cavon, I would suggest the Troll is not Cherie! She cares! Her comment does not hurt you. There are friendly, pleasant Poodle people out there.
> 
> Maxine, sorry I missed you at our show Erie Shores and Monarch. I hope I will be able to meet you in person sometime.
> 
> I have seen your boy, and he is lovely! I hope to see you next week in Tillsonburg. I am glad things are much better in your home, now that you again have a lovely Poodle to spoil again. You will find this breeder always supportive of her puppies and people.
> 
> Paragon


AMEN!!!!!!!!!

Maxine is lovely Paragon. I hope you get to meet her too. We will have to have another Poodle Party here one day, and have you and Maxine be part of it!


----------



## Paragon

Arreau,

I am in for a Poodle PARTY!!!!! When? I can bring entertainment (kids).... Gee I can make them sing for their supper even. They actually can sing, and provided entertainment for local functions. I can even have one here at the farm if you want....

Nice pleasant people who love Poodles(and Airedales, Hounds etc), always welcome!

Paragon


----------



## PoodlePowerBC

Maybe I'm just sensitive... but I think it would have been more appropriate to start a new thread. This is NOT about a Bijou Poodle. This is about a meeting at a show with a ? poodle. And seriously maybe I'm wrong, ... Brodie doesn't even look like she is an active member here. I take this as another way to poke us Bijou Poodle owners. JMHO


----------



## Countryboy

I see yr point PP...

'Cept I probably would have done the same as Arreau. *If* I had slighted someone *as unimaginable as that is  * I don't think I'd apologize in a new thread. 

I would want my apology to be read as a completion... in the same thread. So that everybody who saw any slight would be _guaranteed_ to also read the part where I admitted to changing my mind.

Just my way of thinkin' I guess...


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Paragon said:


> Arreau,
> 
> I am in for a Poodle PARTY!!!!! When? I can bring entertainment (kids).... Gee I can make them sing for their supper even. They actually can sing, and provided entertainment for local functions. I can even have one here at the farm if you want....
> 
> Nice pleasant people who love Poodles(and Airedales, Hounds etc), always welcome!
> 
> Paragon


We can do it wherever is closest for the majority of people invited if you are open to having it at your place. Cathy Siverns and TLP are closer to you, and Virginia the Nurse is closer to you too. But Trillium is wayyyyyy far, being north of Barrie. Let's keep talking and get something planned...sounds like fun!! And yes, the entertainment would be a pleasant bonus!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

PoodlePowerBC said:


> Maybe I'm just sensitive... but I think it would have been more appropriate to start a new thread. This is NOT about a Bijou Poodle. This is about a meeting at a show with a ? poodle. And seriously maybe I'm wrong, ... Brodie doesn't even look like she is an active member here. I take this as another way to poke us Bijou Poodle owners. JMHO


In my opinion, because Maxine is not very active here, starting a new thread which may never have been seen by her might have been a waste of time. But because she and her husband are the OP's of this thread, if they have their settings a certain way, they will receive email notification when things are added to this thread. I used to be bombarded with emails from this forum with regard to any threads I had started or responded to, until I was thankfully guided on how to shut those notifications off.


----------



## PoodlePowerBC

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> We have not heard from Maxine or Brian in a long time, and I was wondering if they got a new puppy and how things were going if they did. I am sorry to resurrect an old thread, but saw in the Quicklinks that lots of guests were viewing it, which got me to wondering how the OP's were doing.


Sorry to resurrect an old thread????Then do it again? A PM would have worked if you honestly wanted to get in touch with them. I am not making excuses for the way "Brodie" was treated, but..... I was Overwhelmed by the negative remarks when I innocently told Arreau (after I was asked where my boy came from) that he was a K-lar - Bijou. Kinda hard to forget these things. And I will bet this thread will be resurrected again.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

You know what...it seems no matter what I do, some people will not be happy, so if you want to take my intent and twist it to suit your purposes, that is your choice. I am not going to argue with you nor defend myself to you.

You know what I find amusing? You are resurrecting this by continually by responding here. Wouldn't a pm have worked in this case too?


----------



## lindasdoggrooming

I thought I would look at the Bijou website. I found this at the bottom of her site. It this statement used by other breeders as well. This would make me think that there is a problem. 

~ WARNING ~ Cyber libel

Be careful what you post to a blog, Forum or into an email. 
If you write Defamatory Statements you could be sued for libel.
(yes even if it is "just your opinion" or you add "without prejudice") 
You are Accountable and Responsible for what you post in forums, blogs, message boards and say on the phone.
Companies and people are trolling the blogs, forums and making phone calls, waiting for mention of their name
This it's called "reputation management" and you could be sued for any Defamatory (negative) statements you make verbally or written.

Bijou Poodles does not belong to any Clubs or Forums, that allow their members to engage in Libel, Defaming or Cyber Bullying
nor will we knowingly place a puppy to anyone engaged in such amoral, unethical and illegal behaviour.
Just remember what your parents taught you 
If you have nothing good to say about others, don't say anything.


----------



## liljaker

I dunno, as I commented earlier in this thread when it was brought up, it is legally correct and it can happen. I guess word to the wise. Heck, I'd rather have a breeder remind you of what is legally correct rather than go on and on about their religious beliefs. Just me....... maybe because I worked for lawyers for around 16 years that does not make me blink an eye.

And, the CEO of my current company has another company dealing with reputation management and it is a much bigger issue than you can imagine. And, it rarely has anything to do with the allegations being right or wrong, since any allegations out on the internet can hurt a reputation even if false, and be subject to litigation.


----------



## PoodlePowerBC

lindasdoggrooming said:


> Just remember what your parents taught you
> If you have nothing good to say about others, don't say anything.


I like this ... too bad more people don't agree :2in1:


----------



## peppersb

lindasdoggrooming said:


> I thought I would look at the Bijou website. I found this at the bottom of her site. It this statement used by other breeders as well. This would make me think that there is a problem.
> 
> ~ WARNING ~ Cyber libel
> 
> Be careful what you post to a blog, Forum or into an email.
> If you write Defamatory Statements you could be sued for libel.
> (yes even if it is "just your opinion" or you add "without prejudice")
> You are Accountable and Responsible for what you post in forums, blogs, message boards and say on the phone.
> Companies and people are trolling the blogs, forums and making phone calls, waiting for mention of their name
> This it's called "reputation management" and you could be sued for any Defamatory (negative) statements you make verbally or written.
> 
> Bijou Poodles does not belong to any Clubs or Forums, that allow their members to engage in Libel, Defaming or Cyber Bullying
> nor will we knowingly place a puppy to anyone engaged in such amoral, unethical and illegal behaviour.
> Just remember what your parents taught you
> If you have nothing good to say about others, don't say anything.


I mentioned this on another thread. While it may be legally correct that you can be sued for making certain kinds of statements, there is absolutely no way that I would choose to do business with a firm or an individual that tells people that they might want to litigate. I definitely think it sounds like there have been problems. Big red flag. I think they have some fabulous info on their site, but there is no way under the sun that would I do business with anyone who has a warning like that on their web site. I have never seen this kind of warning on any other breeder's web site. Interesting that liljaker has a very different take on this. That's what I love about PF. We all come with different backgrounds and different opinions.


----------



## liljaker

peppersb: We do all have different backgrounds and experiences, for sure. I would never consider it a "red flag" when someone reiterates a disclaimer like that. Reputation is a very valuable asset to a business -- any kind of business. And, as we have seen on PF, it's easy for people to just criticize and make accusations (and I am not using this thread as an example by the way) just because they heard this or that, or feel strongly. The Internet is not very forgiving, and I guess I would interpret someone posting something like that to mean that they know how important a reputation is, and they also probably know of situations where opinions have turned into slander, that's all. I guess if I was going to do business with a breeder I would be much more concerned about how THEY handled themselves as professionals and their breeding program and the pups. That's just me; others may look for other things. 

I think if you look hard enough you can find something to justify your reasoning to do business with or not do business with someone and at the end of the day it's a gut feeling.

Good thing there are so many breeders, right? Enough to go around for sure.


----------



## Poodle Lover

peppersb said:


> i mentioned this on another thread. While it may be legally correct that you can be sued for making certain kinds of statements, there is absolutely no way that i would choose to do business with a firm or an individual that tells people that they might want to litigate. I definitely think it sounds like there have been problems. Big red flag. I think they have some fabulous info on their site, but there is no way under the sun that would i do business with anyone who has a warning like that on their web site. I have never seen this kind of warning on any other breeder's web site.


ditto!!!!


----------



## peppersb

liljaker said:


> peppersb:
> ... I guess if I was going to do business with a breeder I would be much more concerned about how THEY handled themselves as professionals and their breeding program and the pups. That's just me; others may look for other things.


Just to be clear, I think that the choice to have the above-mentioned text at the bottom of their home page IS evidence of how they handle themselves as professionals. You make a good point about how disgruntled customers can say negative things that may or may not be true, and this can be a concern for many businesses. But most businesses choose to manage their reputation without threats of litigation on their home page. Of course, this is not the whole picture, and I have no opinion about this breeder with regard other important factors such as the quality of their breeding program and their dogs. Glad to hear that some PF members are happy with their dogs.

Anyway, it is a red flag for me and not for you. As you said:



liljaker said:


> Good thing there are so many breeders, right? Enough to go around for sure.


Agreed!

Thanks for your comments.


----------



## PoodlePowerBC

And as for me ... from postings on this forum I know where I will NOT look for my next poodle. I really don't like to think that it is necessary to drag out every fault of your "competition" to make yourself look or feel better. The nastiest things were said by neighbours of this breeder.
Kinda makes me feel sick to the stomach 

:deadhorse: :airplane:


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

PoodlePowerBC said:


> And as for me ... from postings on this forum I know where I will NOT look for my next poodle. I really don't like to think that it is necessary to drag out every fault of your "competition" to make yourself look or feel better. The nastiest things were said by neighbours of this breeder.
> Kinda makes me feel sick to the stomach
> 
> :deadhorse: :airplane:


And THAT is your prerogative. What neighbours are on this forum who said nasty things about this breeder? None that I have seen, primarily because nobody said anything NASTY. People have spoken TRUTH. What kind of a world do we live in when truth is such a hard thing for people to hear? 

I myself have not said anything unkind about this breeder, but have pointed out the issues I have heard for four years (and this past month has been a nightmare) in dogs I know of and one I owned, who have backgrounds akin to your breeder's. I told you in a PM, I have nothing against Bijou personally. I do however take issue with any breeder who in 40 years has not done a scrap of health testing on a single breeding dog, breed females at nine months of age, breed every heat thereafter until they are done with a dog, and have managed to slip under the radar for so long. Yes, they produce great colour, but at what cost? And this is not Bijou, but the kennel who owns a lot of the dogs behind most of their breeding dogs.

I think a lot of the animosity against your breeder on this forum began a few years ago, when she herself came here under a phony account, pretending to be a happy, satisfied customer, spending an awful lot of time singing the praises of HERSELF!!!!! This was uncovered and announced by the man who owned the forum at the time and she received a lifetime ban. This can be confirmed by the current administrator and/or moderator. This left a lot of us who have been here since then with a very bad taste in our mouths, and left us wondering....


----------

