# Chasing cats outside



## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

My dogs are terrible cat chasers too, including our own cats. But sometimes our cats are not in the mood to run, so when the dogs realize that a detente has been issued, then the dogs and cats just nap together (not touching). Recently I have been thinking about getting a kitten for the dogs...is that crazy?! I thought, if I got a confident, fearless little cat, they would maybe get over their cat obsession.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Indiana said:


> My dogs are terrible cat chasers too, including our own cats. But sometimes our cats are not in the mood to run, so when the dogs realize that a detente has been issued, then the dogs and cats just nap together (not touching). Recently I have been thinking about getting a kitten for the dogs...is that crazy?! I thought, if I got a confident, fearless little cat, they would maybe get over their cat obsession.


If only the cats Leroy sees on the sidewalks would run up to him and claw his face real good - maybe then he'd stop! But they are all scaredy-cats and run. Leroy is a very sensitive boy and he is scared of the cat who visits my house but just so intrigued. When that cat swiped at him, he jumped back so fast you could tell he was so scared! But at last, the allure to go back is too strong.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

You're halfway there if it is working for squirrels! :clap:

Plant a cat in a wire crate about 10 back from the sidewalk and train there. Bring the crate closer over a few training sessions.

The put the cat (on a harness) on a dog tie out. Put the stake maybe 15 feet back and give the cat a 5 foot tie out. Move the stake closer to the road over a few sessions.

Train the watch me next to cat-free cars.

Now, to top it off, train the watch me while walking. It takes more self-control to ignore a distraction while sitting than while walking. Attention heeling an take a long time to train, but it is worth it!

*I* would finish it off with correction. But you might find his behavior is acceptable to you without it.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am imagining the effect of this approach on the cat, Tortoise, and it is not very pleasant - first the cat is trapped in a crate while the dog tries to get at it, and then staked out to be attacked by any passing dog or other danger! I certainly would not allow anyone to use either of my cats (or dogs!) in this way.


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## murphys (Mar 1, 2012)

Ah Tortoise,

No. That would be very cruel to the cat and dangerous. And God help the dog if the cat goes into defensive mode. I can see the vet bills now.

We are working with my brothers puppy and my two cats. The puppy is on a leash and we go find the cats who have an option of leaving. Puppy finds cats. Puppy gets excited. He play bows, he barks. He whines. Tail is going a mile a minute. I get puppy in a sit and distract him with food, tug toy, bouncing ball, whatever. He will look at the cat who is hissing, growling and if puppy comes close, swatting. We back far enough away so he can see cat but he is sitting and paying attention to me. We do this for maybe 2 or 3 minutes and then we go back behind the baby gate in one part of the house. Cats have free rein of entire house. Puppy is not allowed to chase cats. 

It's getting better. Cats haven't hurt him yet. We do this several times over several hours. The puppy stays with me one day a week. The cats are starting to come over the gate into the part of the house the puppy is in. Once he stops barking at them and trying to chase them, they will get along a lot better. Or he is going to get swatted a few times.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I guess my cat was somthin' special. You need a cat that is desensitized to dogs and doesn't stress out. I had a cat solely for the purpose of training dogs. He was super laid back and well trained. Pottied outside with the dogs and crated too. He knew sit, go lie down, crate, and come. Acted like a dog! I had a dog training blooper where the dog I was training broke the collar and hit that cat crate with such force that he bloodied his nose. The cat didn't react. Good kitten.

Anyway, I think you missed something - the dog is doing attention "watch me" in the cat's area. NOT going after the cat.


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## murphys (Mar 1, 2012)

Hi Tortoise,

I guess it depends on the cat. Mine definitely want options. Even though the puppy is not able to get to them, and they know it, they are still in a defensive mode. And the puppy is on the leash because he is havng a hard time staying in watch me mode because he wants so badly to be friends with the cats. 

That is a pretty laid back kitten you are describing. Even a cat I had that was raised with our dog would not have tolerated what you describe. Glad it worked for you, the cat and the dog. I have to believe that is one unusual kitten. 

We are doing the very slow route and it seems to be working. Lots of treats and rewards when he can control himself. Lots of pets for the cats that they stay around and watch the puppy.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

If I were to use a cat, I don't think using my own would work. Leroy is so used to them by now. Sometimes everyone (humans, cats, dogs) go outside to lounge on the patio furniture. One cat sits on the chair, and another sits on the window sill or chews on some grass. The dogs go about their business or play as if the my cats aren't even there. 

It's a different story with the neighborhood cat! I don't know who owns him or if he even has an owner, but I named him Oliver. He visits and Leroy gets SO excited. Oliver wants treats so badly he'll come onto the patio and risk being on ground level with dogs. He's a feisty, street-smart cat cause I've seen him sitting underneath a tree and my dogs run at him full speed and he doesn't even flinch. Leroy grew up seeing him as a puppy and he would submit to Oliver. So he's the type of cat I need to borrow! However, he does not like to be reigned in - we tried putting him in our house and garage when it was really cold outside. He just cried to be let out, so I doubt he'd be happy on a lead or in a crate. I will have to find a cat like you described which will be hard to do.

Also, I have seen Leroy interacting with another strange cat (who stuck around), and Leroy doesn't do anything. He runs up to them, they hiss at him and try to swipe and he gets scared and backs off. So I wish I could ask him what's the point of chasing the cat?!


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I almost wonder if it's the perceived "danger" that attracts them...like how Maddy always is attracted to the bad boys at the dog park. And of course, the reaction; how could you beat the great reaction of hissing and running, SO exciting! That's why when our cats aren't in the mood, the dogs give up pretty much right away.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

tokipoke said:


> If I were to use a cat, I don't think using my own would work. Leroy is so used to them by now. Sometimes everyone (humans, cats, dogs) go outside to lounge on the patio furniture. One cat sits on the chair, and another sits on the window sill or chews on some grass. The dogs go about their business or play as if the my cats aren't even there.
> 
> It's a different story with the neighborhood cat! I don't know who owns him or if he even has an owner, but I named him Oliver. He visits and Leroy gets SO excited. Oliver wants treats so badly he'll come onto the patio and risk being on ground level with dogs. He's a feisty, street-smart cat cause I've seen him sitting underneath a tree and my dogs run at him full speed and he doesn't even flinch. Leroy grew up seeing him as a puppy and he would submit to Oliver. So he's the type of cat I need to borrow! However, he does not like to be reigned in - we tried putting him in our house and garage when it was really cold outside. He just cried to be let out, so I doubt he'd be happy on a lead or in a crate. I will have to find a cat like you described which will be hard to do.
> 
> Also, I have seen Leroy interacting with another strange cat (who stuck around), and Leroy doesn't do anything. He runs up to them, they hiss at him and try to swipe and he gets scared and backs off. So I wish I could ask him what's the point of chasing the cat?!


Well, the object is to reduce the stimulation/excitement for Leroy so he can focus on you. So using a very familiar cat is not bad. If there is any way your cat can be safe outside - maybe with someone else? - so you can train, I think it is a good starting point. 

Remember that you're not testing or challenging his existing training. You're working on making cats ultimately boring.

While you're trying to figure out possibilities of using a cat in training, work on "watch me" around cars, since that is an obvious cue to him that a cat might be there. Plus the randomness of whether or not a cat is the has a reinforcing "slot machine" effect.

Maybe live trap a NASTY feral cat and tuck the live trap under a car. Poor Leroy would be terrified. :lol: (That's not a real suggestion! It would work _in theory_, but poor cat! and poor Leroy! It gives me a funny mental image.  )

Give yourself some credit for working past squirrels! You're doing it right, but just need to push on to the next level. You'll get there.


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## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

Ok, this is the 2nd try for this post. The first one my PC blew up. I do think you're on the right track.

First, I know it's a pain to remember treats on a walk. So make a walking bag. Grab a fanny pack, or a small shoulder bag and stuff it with Leroy's favorite treats (cheese, chicken, liver and so on). Clip a clicker to the outside and throw your pick up bags and a spare house key in there and stick it in the fridge (if the treats need to be refrigerated). Then when you're ready to walk, grab your bag, the leash and go.

Well armed, I'd take off on my walk. If Leroy alerts and runs toward a cat, immediately turn the opposite direction, tell him to leave it and let's go, and reward him when he does. Be prepared for him to fight it a couple steps, but keep your momentum and tone up. He'll follow. When he relaxes and stops looking over his shoulder have him sit or down, reward, and then start walking back the way you were originally heading. Most likely the kitty will be gone by the time you get back to the area, so keep moving forward and reward him for keeping the leash loose and his attention on you. This is where having him sit, come to front position or figure 8s can be used rewarding all the time that he's watching you, not going after the kitty, or the thought of the kitty. If the cat didn't take off, and he charges again it again, repeat. Yes, it's annoying, there may be a few walks where you get stuck somewhere, but you are teaching him to ignore things and walk nicely. It will pay off, and fairly quickly.

I agree the danger of the unknown is what attracts them AND the prey drive. Cats are small enough to qualify as prey. The advantage is when a bunny someday races across your path, hopefully the training will pay off and you won't end up bouncing down the road after him.

I've been going through this inside. We have 3 cats who Ramses has been raised around, but we brought home a new cat, or rather she found us, and we've been introducing them. After a week, of keeping a leash on him, rewarding him for ignoring it, and if he chased her walking him away with a reward, I've got it down to he'll only chase her when she runs directly in front of him, and will not touch her. Progress . Another week and I think they'll be friends, or at least bored with each other (I swear she's running in front of him on purpose today, silly girl!)

Good luck, you can do it!


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Leroy is a funny dog. He is WAY better off leash, when meeting people and cats! He seems to want something 5x more if he can't get to it _right away_ (when he's on leash).

Oliver (neighborhood cat) visited my patio. Leroy greeted him by wagging his tail like crazy and shaking his hiney. Then he sat down staring at him. He didn't have that fixated prey look like most dogs get, he was his normal self but in play mode. However, he listened to me very well even in the midst of the cat. I told him to go on and go potty. He went to the grass and peed on cue. He went back to the cat. I told him to get in the house and he came in no problem. Too bad I can't walk him off leash in my neighborhood!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

tortoise said:


> ....Plant a cat in a wire crate about 10 back from the sidewalk and train there. Bring the crate closer over a few training sessions.
> 
> The put the cat (on a harness) on a dog tie out. Put the stake maybe 15 feet back and give the cat a 5 foot tie out. Move the stake closer to the road over a few sessions.


*No!* I am positively NEGATIVE on this "training" suggestion! IMO it approaches animal cruelty, worthy of putting someone behind bars. Is this a "technique" you "invented," or did you come across it in one of the dog training books you've read? If the latter, please share the source. I'd like to write the author and publisher.


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## GlennBaxterFamily (Apr 28, 2011)

I have never heard of that method of training a dog with cats. I am not sure that would be a pleasent or positive training exercise for either the dog or cat. 

The closest, and only thing that I can think of that is close to what was described, is training coonhounds to "tree" racoons but instead of a cat they use racoons. I think the biggest difference would be that the purpose is not to actually train the dog to annoy, hurt, kill, or tree a cat.

I am not in favor of this type of training but my understanding is it is a long standing way of training in the south.

Here is an example of "training" coonhounds with a trapped racoon


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## Leooonie (May 30, 2009)

I personally would ignore Tortoise in this instance. 

Harley did have this exact problem, he got attacked by a queen with kittens from a young age and since then was a nightmare with any cats.
I have some suggestions.

I'm not sure if many people have heard of it, but there is a book called 'Control UNLEASHED'. .. now I dont suggest you unleash Leroy, but almost 'act' like he is unleashed. The author suggests treating for any attention broke from what is interesting the dog i.e. treats for looking at you! This may mean you are standing around for 5 mins waiting, but he will start realising he gets nowhere by staring at things, and only gets something/somewhere by looking at you!


So the situation may be : Leroy sees cat, cats bolts..Leroy pulls. You have to stand there, waiting until he looks towards you, then give him a treat!, it may be he immediately looks back at the cat inwhich case you wait, then when he looks at you again, give him another treat tell him 'lets go' and lure him away, possibly giving a 'nudge' by leash.. when he starts following you give him more treats as he walks along. this builds association that coming with you and leaving the cat behind is a good thing!
an important part of this is you don't tell him to watch you... he must make the association himself that you are important - you shouldnt need to demand attention.. you should be his default.

with this behaviour of watching you when there is somethign interesting.. you could begin by letting him watch you throw a toy or ball he likes (with him leashed) and as soon as he watches you to give him treats. then lead him away. you can go back and get the toy with Leroy, but you must make sure he does not get it, at least not at that point.
similarly if he reaaally want to pee against or sniff something, hold him so he is straining to get at it... and when he turns to look at you, give treats, and lead him away to elsewhere treating as you go, or immediatelu letting him sniff elsewhere.

I do suggest possibly, as you have cats at home, maybe telling him to lay down or 'stay' in a spot , while you play with your cats (if they like to play). if not... if he begins playing with them, leave a leash on him, tell him lets go, give a quick leash tug, show a treat and lead him away.

It does sound more like a chase/movement reaction, or strong play reaction rather than a predatory reaction which means itll be easier to sort out 

I hope this helps!!! I know it has helped me HUGELY since I discovered it!

EDIT:
in terms of stopping him actively searching for cats to chase, the behaviour you introduce with him watching you will increase the frequency of him looking up whilst generally walking. especially if you randomly stop occasionally, at least at the beginning of training, and wait for him to watch, then treat,"lets go" then begin walking the other way, perhaps about turning again to go where you were going originally .
this eventually will become second nature, especially if, once he is doing it regularly, you only rewardonly half the number, then a quater, then 1 in 7 times he looks at you. this surprisingly increases the strength of the beahviour.

concerning forgetting treats... I always just leave them in a bag, hooked over where I keep leashes and collars.. that way I see them when picking Harleys lead up.. I dont know if there is someway yuou could do this? how do you remember poo bags?


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Leooonie: The premise which you describe is very similar to my first training sessions with Jake as a puppy. The eye contact. Same thing. The trainer sat on the floor with Jake in front of her. Picked up a treat in her hand. Of course, Jake ran to her hand to get the treat. She ignored him. Put him back in front of her and the treat behind her. Did it again....same result. Third time however, Jake figured it out. Instead of going to the treat in her outstretched arm's hand, he sat there and looked straight at her, like WHAT DO I NEED TO DO? As soon as he looked at her, she brought the treat to him and he took it. Every time after, no matter where she held the treat, he immediately looked at her FIRST, and she gave it to him. Poodles catch on very quickly. With an older dog it may take more, but the eye contact FIRST is so important!


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Looks like I'll be waiting around a LONG while outside before Leroy looks at me. He could care less whatever is around besides the cat or the vicinity of the cat. I've tried waiting him out before, it took forever! Maybe my impatience is why he has this problem. Whenever someone else walks him, it's the opposite - he can't take his eyes off me, he is so concerned. 

I'll have to use treats that are REALLY high value to him because the usual stuff doesn't cut it when it comes to those neighborhood cats. I remember to take poop bags with me cause they are attached to the leash, but I can't leave any kind of treats out cause if the dogs don't sniff it out first, the cats will get it. They will do everything they can to get into the container. I also can't leave out food scraps cause either Leroy will counter surf (but he's only done this with wet cat food), or my cats will try to eat the food. They are nuts. You can't leave pizza crusts out cause one of my cats loves bread & sweets, the other one loves cheese and bacon stuff.


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## GlennBaxterFamily (Apr 28, 2011)

with regards to the waiting for him to look at you what if you used a treat that stunk to high heaven but he loved, like baked liver?

So for example you are on your walk but you have that really stinky treat he loves. As soon as you see the cat you entice him by getting him to look at you and then reward. By doing this you would get him to associate that treat with looking at you when he sees a cat. Then as time goes on being more specific and shape the behavior to what you want.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

He likes food. He LOVES forbidden foods like cheetos (don't know why he is so interested in this crap food), pizza, taco meat... you get the idea. Stuff he shouldn't be having that'll give him diarrhea lol.

I'll try to find something really stinky!


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## GlennBaxterFamily (Apr 28, 2011)

I can relate. I love forbidden foods too, like chocolate (I am intolerant of the cocoa bean) but sometimes I eat it anyway, consequences be danged lol

What about cheese, there are some pretty stinky ones!


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

GlennBaxterFamily said:


> I can relate. I love forbidden foods too, like chocolate (I am intolerant of the cocoa bean) but sometimes I eat it anyway, consequences be danged lol
> 
> What about cheese, there are some pretty stinky ones!


My husband developed lactose intolerance but he can't stay away from cheese or ice cream. I'll have to ask the deli dept to give me the stinkiest cheese they have. While I'm waiting for Leroy to look at me, I can have myself a little snack. Maybe I'll bring some crackers too lol.


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## GlennBaxterFamily (Apr 28, 2011)

tokipoke said:


> My husband developed lactose intolerance but he can't stay away from cheese or ice cream. I'll have to ask the deli dept to give me the stinkiest cheese they have. While I'm waiting for Leroy to look at me, I can have myself a little snack. Maybe I'll bring some crackers too lol.


I would suggest a water bottle with wine in it .. you might need it lol


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Ummm - wine and cheese party! Sounds good to me!

I wonder if you need to think outside the box a bit, as you have done so successfully with Louis? BAT (Behavioral Adaptive Therapy) works for reactivity around dogs and people - very much the Watch me method already described, but first teaching Watch me at home, with fewer distractions. Then the key is to introduce the Watch me and the treat far enough away from the trigger that the dog can concentrate on you. I think I would try walking him in an area where you know there are usually cats, and playing the Watch me game all the way - every few yards Watch me = treat; turn and go the other way, Stay with me = treat, with the treats coming thick and fast - every few seconds this first time. If he does go crazy over a cat, turn immediately and walk back the way you came until he is calm enough to restart the game, then try again. It may take a few goes, but it can be very successful. The key is to distract the dog BEFORE he gets into the state of arousal that means he simply cannot hear you!


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

cat baiting as part of training. I'm floored.
:banghead:


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