# Nature's Variety - Instinct raw?



## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

Hi all,

Has anyone tried the Nature's Variety frozen raw? It's 5 star rated on Dog Food Advisor.

Bella is still the pickiest little eater I've ever ran up against and switching from Science Diet to other kibble has been less than successful... So today I was out of town and found a specialty store that had Nature Variety frozen raw in several varieties. I purchased the lamb formula medallions and gave her one this evening and she LOVED IT!!!!!! 1st time ever that she has literally licked the bowl clean and did the happy dance as I put it in her bowl.

I'd normally prefer to feed her kibble that I could leave it out during day as she is so tiny but if this seems the way to go or maybe a combo???

Thanks for any advise!


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Yes I feed my two standards this food. They love it. The only draw back is the cost.


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Sunny is on the raw and particularly likes the Bison!


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Nature's Variety also has a grain free kibble, you may want to try if you wanted to stay with dry.


----------



## Theo'sMom (Mar 23, 2011)

Theo eats the frozen lamb, beef or venison for dinner and loves it. He didn't love the chicken and we haven't tried bison. For breakfast he gets blue buffalo with a topping. (usually cooked chicken.) blue buffalo is the only kibble he will eat happily, but only when he is very hungry. He sort of liked Orijen, so I might try that again for his breakfast. He didn't like wellness, canidae, or nutro.
I feed one kibble meal because of the expense of instinct. (he's a spoo) One day I might try homemade raw.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

If she loves it, I think you have your answer.  If you are worried about her needing to eat inbetween meal times you could still leave some grain free kibble out for her during the day to eat if she likes. Feeding a standard poodle this food is so expensive (!), but feeding a toy should be doable. 

I'm so glad you found something she did the happy dance for! 

Our local Petco has started carrying frozen and fresh raw. One of the brands they carry is Natures Variety, so check there if you haven't already. Who would have thought a majore chain would get in on the raw?


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Beau has been doing great on NV 8 oz raw patties for well over a year now. He gobbles down a 1/4 patty (2oz) twice a day. Our local "Healthy Pet" store gives a discount if you buy six or more packs and pay up front. You can then take home one pack at a time as needed; basically, they store the excess in their freezer for you, and you drop in and pick up as needed. It's a good scheme for all concerned, as I rarely get out of there without buying a bag of treats or a fun new toy.

Beau is currently getting bison, but he started off on beef. He developed runny poops after a few weeks so we switched to chicken, and he did great on that for many months. We switched to bison a month ago just to have a break, and we'll probably try lamb next. I am searching for a convenient local source for turkey necks, and once we have that, we'll occassionally substitute one for a patty portion.

I can almost guarantee that Bella will love it.


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

outwest said:


> Our local Petco has started carrying frozen and fresh raw. One of the brands they carry is Natures Variety, so check there if you haven't already. Who would have thought a majore chain would get in on the raw?


Look how many of us are buying it. They know a profitable product line when they see it!


----------



## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Kroger will order frozen turkey necks for me. I am feeding one raw meal one kibble right now. I hope to go to all raw soon. I think it is the best thing you can do for your dog.


----------



## dawns (Jun 29, 2010)

outwest said:


> Our local Petco has started carrying frozen and fresh raw. One of the brands they carry is Natures Variety, so check there if you haven't already. Who would have thought a majore chain would get in on the raw?


I wonder if all petcos will be doing this, I would love to feed Porter NV frozen but right now I would have to order it as there are no stores nearby that sell it.


----------



## Theo'sMom (Mar 23, 2011)

I get Instinct from Petco, in NY. Sometimes I get it from a specialty store, but they are about 1/2 hour away and Petco is 2 minutes away, so Petco it is.


----------



## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

Thank you everyone for your reviews on this option! I did a bunch of research before trying this food but it helps to read it from poodle board members that I have come to trust 

Bella is in love with this food and she's never cared for food that wasn't a "treat" before!!! The closest place that sells it is 1.5 hrs away but I plan to stock up on my next trip so it shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks again everyone!!!!


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I noticed on their website, naturesvariety.com, they partner with some online retailers that deliver. Might be worth checking out.


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

How much does Petco sell the NV for? I have to get mine from a boutique store. I wonder if the price is different. I love the convenience of the NV patties. So easy to go raw with those, but the cost was getting to me. Leroy is on prey model raw now and he loves it. He has eaten all different flavors of NV. This is what I will go to when I'm out of town and someone other than me or my husband has to feed Leroy though, mainly because it's easy and it doesn't look "bloody."

I switched my Havanese to the NV raw. He LOVES it. He liked his kibble but would take forever to eat it. It takes him less than a minute to eat the raw medallions and he's licking his plate and looking for more. I also love how his poops are so much smaller. When he was on kibble, his poops were BIGGER than Leroy's!! Now it's one tiny little poop, or two little marble sized poops. The cost of the NV doesn't bother me too much when it comes to the little guy though. I'm hesitant to move him onto RMB's cause of his long beard!


----------



## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

I checked with a Petco in our area and the manager mentioned they have a cooler / freezer coming in soon so it looks like they may start selling this food.

I checked the online retailers and found those is my surrounding states do not carry the frozen or list it as coming soon....

We purchased a small freezer this week and plan to make a run back out of town this weekend about 1.5 or so to stock up. To see Bella this happy about her food is worth the expense and the drive!


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Theo'sMom said:


> I get Instinct from Petco, in NY. Sometimes I get it from a specialty store, but they are about 1/2 hour away and Petco is 2 minutes away, so Petco it is.


Interesting...I just received an email from petco (a national email) and it says they are going to carry some specialty foods, including some frozen foods but not NV. They have natures recipe. Are you certain your NY petco sells NV instinct? That's awesome as I would guess with the buying power they have it would be cheaper..what do you pay for it there?

******I just went back and looked at the email I was referring to...it is petsmart! We have petco too I'll have to check that out! Thanks.


----------



## Theo'sMom (Mar 23, 2011)

Ms Stella said:


> Interesting...I just received an email from petco (a national email) and it says they are going to carry some specialty foods, including some frozen foods but not NV. They have natures recipe. Are you certain your NY petco sells NV instinct? That's awesome as I would guess with the buying power they have it would be cheaper..what do you pay for it there?
> 
> ******I just went back and looked at the email I was referring to...it is petsmart! We have petco too I'll have to check that out! Thanks.


Oh I misspoke! It's pet Depot. Sorry about that. At Pet Depot it's 22 plus tax for beef and lamb.
For some reason chicken there is 27. They say it's b/c it's organic, but it doesn't say Organic on the bag so I think they are falsely charging the organic price for the wrong product. I've called attention to this but they tell me that even though the bag says regular chicken, it really is the organic kind. :argh:

At the specialty store in town (1/2 hour away) the prices are 26-28 plus tax for beef, lamb, bison and venison. Plus your 10th is free. So it's actually the same price as Pet Depot in the long run, and when I'm in the neighborhood I prefer to buy it there, but Pet Depot is closer.


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey, here's an idea for another Group Buy!!!!! Rowan......where are you?????? How about raw frozen food? (Just kidding, Rowan)


----------



## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

liljaker said:


> Hey, here's an idea for another Group Buy!!!!! Rowan......where are you?????? How about raw frozen food? (Just kidding, Rowan)


If something falls on your head it's just me using my special powers. 

And I know of the perfect product for _your_ group buy!!!!!! :aetsch:


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Theo'sMom said:


> Oh I misspoke! It's pet Depot. Sorry about that. At Pet Depot it's 22 plus tax for beef and lamb.
> For some reason chicken there is 27. They say it's b/c it's organic, but it doesn't say Organic on the bag so I think they are falsely charging the organic price for the wrong product. I've called attention to this but they tell me that even though the bag says regular chicken, it really is the organic kind. :argh:
> 
> At the specialty store in town (1/2 hour away) the prices are 26-28 plus tax for beef, lamb, bison and venison. Plus your 10th is free. So it's actually the same price as Pet Depot in the long run, and when I'm in the neighborhood I prefer to buy it there, but Pet Depot is closer.


Actually they have organic chicken and regular chicken. The organic is a little more expensive. It says organic on the bag when it is organic. I have bought that one too.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Since PetCo is based in San Diego, CA, they might be giving the raw a trial her in SoCal before they go nationwide with it. I will check the prices next time I go in. I was looking at it all and came to the conclusion that feeding two larger dogs premade raw was going to break me. The other change at this PetCo is at least half the store is now high quality kibbles. When I went to look at my various choices, I was overwhelmed. My SIL asked them about Orijen and the manager said Orijen would not sell to PetCo, so you couldn't get it there.

The Zoom Room where I take Bonnie for classes also sells kibble and raw. My SIL found the Orijen there and switched her poodle over. I am still happy with Blue Buffalo Wilderness, but we did a quick calculation of price and realized the price of the Orijen was actually cheaper than the BB because it came in a 30 pound bag compared to the 24 pounds I have been buying.

Next time I go to PetCo, I will check the premade raw prices for you guys. I don't mind supporting a chain if that chain does things right.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

As far as kibbles go I like Orijen a lot. I keep some on hand for when I am too lazy to thaw out raw meat. I actually just sort of switched Tiger back to Orijen and some Ziwipeak a few meals a week in addition to raw temporarily because a) I need him to gain weight and he eats less volume with more calories with kibble and, b) I cannot afford to send him out with raw for a week when he goes to PCA.


----------



## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

I was surprised on the terrible negative reaction my vet had a feeding a raw diet - she highly highly highly advised switching Bella back to a kibble and if not then at least a home cooked diet. 

She is very knowledgable in nutrition (love my vet) and said that it is not the food that she is concerned with in fact it is great for them.... but she has seen many cases of samonila and eboli in her practice due to raw diets and stated this was transferable to the other dogs and to humans.

I know the normal reaction to a post like this is that vets don't understand... but I truly do think she does understand nutrition - her concern is strictly about contamination issues.

Has anyone had these issues feeding raw frozen? I appreciate the knowledge of those on this board and want to make an informed decision.

Thanks!
Minnie


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Minnie said:


> I was surprised on the terrible negative reaction my vet had a feeding a raw diet - she highly highly highly advised switching Bella back to a kibble and if not then at least a home cooked diet.
> 
> She is very knowledgable in nutrition (love my vet) and said that it is not the food that she is concerned with in fact it is great for them.... but she has seen many cases of samonila and eboli in her practice due to raw diets and stated this was transferable to the other dogs and to humans.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure. My vet actually sells raw food at her practice and recommends either homemade raw feeding or premade raw feeding to all clients. The next best she recommends if one is not able to feed raw is home cooking. After that she recommends high quality grain free kibble.

She said that in 9 years of Holistic practice and 15 additional years of practicing traditional veterinary medicine she has never heard of or seen any issues with her clients' dogs or owners being sick from contamination from homemade raw or premade raw. She has written several articles, attended seminars, etc. She is up to date on all research and feeds homemade raw to her own dogs and cats.

Then, there is my traditional vet to whom I take my dogs when they are afflicted with minor illness (closer than the holistic vet.) He said (I grill my vets ha) that he has not seen any issues with his raw feeding clients - human or canine. He said that he has plenty of kibble fed dogs coming in with infections of various types from eating indiscriminate items outside and that he has no reason to suspect that raw feeding poses any significant contamination risk that kibble does not pose, when it comes to the health of the dog. 

Now, when it comes to the health of the human, it's of course necessary to employ common sense. Clean up after preparing raw food, clean bowls after each meal, clean eating area, scoop poop often, etc. If one is not able to employ common sense then perhaps there is a real risk for them.

If it makes you feel any better, Nature's Variety is High Pressure Pasteurized which is supposed to minimize the chance of contamination. Many raw feeders (myself to some degree) avoid HPP raw due to the fact that it alters the integrity of the raw diet to some degree. Others find comfort in the pasteurization process.


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Minnie said:


> I was surprised on the terrible negative reaction my vet had a feeding a raw diet - she highly highly highly advised switching Bella back to a kibble and if not then at least a home cooked diet.
> 
> She is very knowledgable in nutrition (love my vet) and said that it is not the food that she is concerned with in fact it is great for them.... but she has seen many cases of samonila and eboli in her practice due to raw diets and stated this was transferable to the other dogs and to humans.
> 
> ...


I havent had issues that I am aware of with NV I did have diarrhea with some raw things I tried..but from what Im told I didnt start out correctly..anyway, I love the stools I get from NV and its not messy to eat. No blood on their fur, paws or elsewhere. I have seen some photos of dogs eating bloody meat on carpet posted on FB..yuck!

My vet, who is very informed on many isssues like vaccines and the need to limit their use...feels the same as your vet. She has said she sees GI infections with people who feed raw. Lasting diarrhea and GI upset usually comes from food..and certainly one that requires antibiotics suggests bacteria..and people who feed raw have had these issues on the forum. Of course others whow feed kibble have had such problems as well...kibble can be comtaminated like raw meat. I really thought about this when I made sushi a few times...theres a lot of seafood out there to buy..fresh. But there are only a few special ones that are sushi grade. I believe that the meat in our world is not monitored and planned to be eaten raw. If someone raised a cow...or knew how it was raised, and butchered it or was certain that the remains were handled in a way that a human could eat it raw...then I would be ok with it.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I have to disagree with you on the food being the usual cause of bacterial infection, Stella. I think that this is very true for humans and is likely why you are drawing this conclusion. That said, my vet said that his experience is that eating nastiness outside (dirt, rodent poop, etc.) is by far more common of a cause for GI infections than diet. 

I am one of those raw feeders' whose dogs developed a gastrointestinal infection (H. Bacter ). Do you know what the funny thing is? His infection was caused (accd. to vet) by the stressful kennel environment when he was showing. And during this time he was eating kibble and frozen Bil Jac food - not raw. The infection that he had lasted for several months before it got bad enough that the symptoms were enough for me to bring him in to the vet only to find that he had had a common GI infection . 

Anyway, ironic at the very least, right?

H. Bacter is one of those bacteria that often occur naturally in the gut of specific animals including dogs. A kennel type situation with plenty of dogs around and added stress is often enough to cause this naturally occurring bacteria to develop into an infection.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Minnie said:


> I
> Has anyone had these issues feeding raw frozen? I appreciate the knowledge of those on this board and want to make an informed decision.
> 
> Thanks!
> Minnie


My puppy was a raw fed puppy when I got her. Her stool tested negative for all worms, but positive for clostridium dificile. Clostridium, the vet educated me, was likely a normal flora in a raw fed dog, My pup was healthy as a horse with firm stools. It wasn't bothering her at all and she probably needed those bacteria to process the raw food better.

C Diff in humans causes horrible, difficult to control diarrhea. Since I am a nurse, it worried me. I do see C Diff in the hospital and it isn't pretty. It is normally found in small untestable amounts in the intestinal tract. My elderly mother lives with me and picks up dog poop half the time. I decided raw feeding was not something I would do on a regular basis because the old and very young can get very sick (hospitalized sick) if they contract it. 

This is one of the reasons that raw fed dogs are not allowed in service programs. People with weakened immune systems can't tolerate an infection with Clostridium.

To be fair, purchasing raw food and doing it yourself are different. A premade raw should be less likely to cause problems. I do believe raw may be the best for the dog, but there is a risk. If done right, the risk is minimal, but I wasn't willing to take that risk.

There are excellent freeze dried raw diets that would likely minimize the concerns your vet has. If you are deciding to not use the raw afterall, have you tried Orijen? My SIL dog loves it.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> *To be fair, purchasing raw food and doing it yourself are different. A premade raw should be less likely to cause these things. *


Just out of curiosity, why do you say this? Raw meat is raw meat. Unless it's been HPP of course, but only very few premade raw products have been HPP.

Also, I just want to point out that in the study by which Delta (the ONE therapy/service organization which no longer allows raw fed dogs) based their decision on found this: C.Dif. was found in the stool of _25.6% of kibble fed dogs_ and _12.5% of raw fed dogs._

Finally, while one well known organization did decide to not allow raw fed dogs, many more continue to allow them and have made statements saying that they see no reason to not allow raw fed dogs.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

A person would have a higher chance of not handling raw properly than taking premade raw patties out of a bag. It takes a lot of effort to process your own raw food daily, keeping everything very clean. Serving a premade patty would be much easier and cleaner than, say, a chicken leg. Do they wash down the feeding area afterwards since dogs usually take the leg out of the bowl?

I am sure you do the extra for your dogs and I think many do, but it worries me that some people don't take it seriously. I am not against raw. I do give raw treats, but not in great quantities. I only hope that people who do it don't take it too lightly from a cleanliness standpoint. An entirely raw fed dog will probably test positive for clostridium anyway, but they aren't ill. Healthy people can get the diarrhea. Most vets do not test for it, but mine did when I told him she was a raw fed puppy. 

I also can't speak to a dog who is a difficult eater and won't eat kibble. My dog is a pig and will eat anything. For Minnie, the decision will be hers to make. As I said, I think raw DONE RIGHT is probably the best for the dog. I am sure Minnie would do it right and wouldn't have a problem. With premade raw, it can be much easier to keep thing clean. The food stays in the bowl and the bowl is washed. No biggy.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> *An entirely raw fed dog will probably test positive for clostridium anyway, but that doesn't mean they are ill.* Most vets do not test for it, but mine did when I told him she was a raw fed puppy. I don't think that would be change.


Did you read my above post that stated 12% of raw fed dogs in the peer reviewed study and 25% of the kibble fed dogs in the study had C.Dif in their stool? How do you draw the conclusion that a raw fed dog would probably test positive for C.Dif from this information?

As far as the "effort" in preparation being an issue for contamination, how exactly is it any different from preparing raw meat to cook for yourself? If one does not use common sense when preparing their own food they will have the same issues that they will have preparing raw food for their dogs. Do you only prepare from patties for yourself out of fear of contamination?


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> Do they wash down the feeding area afterwards since dogs usually take the leg out of the bowl?
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

You do it right. I am sure a lot of people do. The vet in Minnie's case was expressing rightful concern because not everyone does. It is interesting to me that the vet felt the premade raw was more dangerous than the homemade raw. Hmmm. Maybe she feels the premade raw is not fresh enough and has a higher chance of transmitting samonella and the like? Salmonella is seen in chicken. Ebola is another bacteria that comes from raw meat. I have only seen a couple of cases of that here and in both cases the people had traveled. 

If Minnie does it the way it should be done she shouldn't have any trouble, especially buying the premade foods that are already nutritionally balanced for the dog. I don't see why Minnie couldn't feed premade raw as long as she keeps everything clean, particularly since her dog loves it. She is a toy, so the expense shouldn't be bad, either.

If the vet is questioning the purity of the premade raw, that is something different. Have there been any recalls of this type of food? 

Minnie asked if anyone else had heard anything negative and I had.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> Ebola is another bacteria that comes from raw meat. I have only seen a couple of cases of that here and in both cases the people had traveled.


LOL. Ebola?? I think you mean EColi...

Ebola is a viral illness and the cause of some severe, often fatal outbreaks. It has nothing to do with raw meat. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/ebola/qa.htm


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I'm not sure. My vet actually sells raw food at her practice and recommends either homemade raw feeding or premade raw feeding to all clients. The next best she recommends if one is not able to feed raw is home cooking. After that she recommends high quality grain free kibble.
> 
> She said that in 9 years of Holistic practice and 15 additional years of practicing traditional veterinary medicine she has never heard of or seen any issues with her clients' dogs or owners being sick from contamination from homemade raw or premade raw. She has written several articles, attended seminars, etc. She is up to date on all research and feeds homemade raw to her own dogs and cats.
> 
> ...


Many vets recommend and sell science diet...all selling a specific food at a vets office means to me is they make money off of it. CM your vet recommends raw but many others are strongly against it. Your vet has vever seen an issue with raw and other vets have seen problems with it. Again this is the problem with it...no statistically significant data. If you search the net there are tons of antedotal reports and a handful of small number experiments, and lots of threads and articles like this thread. Where some one who likes to debate and has a lot of time to write can make statements that sound like facts when they are opinions. For example..Tiger getting GI infection and the vet stating it is not related to raw feeding..how many other bacterial infections has this vet seen in raw fed dogs and blamed it in something else..there is no way to know for sure what caused it,..but to say it is not related to food..is incorrect. 

I'm not an expert but neither is anyone here on raw feeding. I would recommend that people use common sense and decide what is right for them. Most important not to feel bad about feeding choices because others are negative about them.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Ms Stella said:


> For example..Tiger getting GI infection and the vet stating it is not related to raw feeding..how many other bacterial infections has this vet seen in raw fed dogs and blamed it in something else..there is no way to know for sure what caused it,..but to say it is not related to food..is incorrect. I'm not an expert but neither is anyone here on raw feeding. I would recommend that people use common sense and decide what is right for them. Most important not to feel bad about feeding choices because others are negative about them.


I would hope that nobody would abandon common sense. I cannot help if others feel bad about their method of feeding because others disagree with them. Many disagree with my way of feeding and I do not feel bad about my way of feeding.About Tiger's GI infection.My vet said that he sees so many kibble fed dogs get infections that it would be an inappropriate assumption to say raw feeding caused Tiger's GI infection. Specifically because it was a chronic infection (h.bacter) which is commonly caused by crowded, stressful environments rather than diet. Not to mention, he was not eating a raw diet when the infection started.


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

I guess my real beef is when people sing the praises of raw it doesn't include the other side..it really is unknown...I feed some raw bones but I a realistic about it and know the risks..I'm careful only to get meat intended for humans..., dont leave it out, give it only on bath days and clean up stringently afterwards..here is a link to the FDA on feeding raw food to household pets. http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Animal...Enforcement/GuidanceforIndustry/UCM052662.pdf


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

My issue is when people only focus (hyperfocus) on the potential (but unproven) risks associated with a raw diet and perpetuate common paranoia and unfounded fear associated with the diet. 

I perhaps mistakenly assume that people have good common sense and are educated enough to handle raw meat properly and maintain good hygiene. 

No need for below the belt comments when you disagree with a strong opinion. Ive done a good job keeping all posts as objective as possible in this thread with no blanket remarks aimed at any individual or any inclusion of notable emotion.

You've made your point more than clear, Stella. It sounds as though you believe that there is a good chance that Tiger's infection was due to his raw diet. Your suspicion was evident when you of course asked what my vet recommended Tiger eat after his diagnosis. There is nothing that I can say to dissuade you and frankly I won't try. It's ironic because I spent a lot of money for my vet to find out what was wrong and his (truly expert) diagnosis was that it was a chronic heliobacter infection from the stress and typical conditions of living in a kennel environment. (Not that it was at all unclean, but of course it was crowded to some degree). After this type of infection, it's important to eat the most digestible diet possible. Hence his suggestion that I avoid feeding kibble and continue feeding raw.

Never once have I said or implied that there are no risks involved with a raw diet. There are risks of various types with any diet you choose to feed or any activities you decide to embark on. I have not told anyone that they are doing anything incorrect. I have simply shared my opinion, my experiences, and the only real expert opinion here: that of my veterinarian. If it's my strong opinion that you take issue with, that is a shame, but I will not stop believing strongly in what is important to me with the hope that I can make a positive difference. It's evident from your posts that you take issue with me to some degree. Still, there is no need for comments with veiled remarks referring to me. There are other members on this board who are able to withstand my strong opinions and my disagreeing with them without the need to tuck away unkind comments aimed at someone personally. My posts have not always been perfect on this forum, but I have made an effort to leave emotion behind when posting on this thread.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

One down side for some dogs fed raw is they have trouble gaining and maintaining weight. If you feed raw and notice your dog is getting thin or is thin, you may want to try an alternate feeding method to see if it makes a difference. Many dogs do very well on raw, many better than on any kibble, but some do not.

GI infections can be contracted with raw food that has excessive amounts of E Coli or other bacteria that overwhelms the system. They can also be contracted in other ways, obviously, but almost all GI infections are caused by something injested.


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

The whole raw feeding issue is a touchy subject. My friend finally asked me my opinion on dog nutrition. Yikes, I've been avoiding that topic. She is looking for a new brand of kibble. She asked what I feed Leroy. I told her that I would try to go grain free, but that what works for one dog may not work for another. And that there is no wrong way to feed your dog, as long as the food agrees with the dog AND your wallet. Whatever she buys, her cost will be multiplied by six. It would be very expensive to feed six dogs on raw, but not impossible. You can buy things in bulk. 

My take on raw is that I understand there's risk, but there's a risk in everything. Just like "pregnant women should not clean the letterbox of a cat" doesn't mean I will get rid of my cats if I become pregnant. I understand the contamination issue with that and will take precautions, just as I do with raw feeding. It's also not messy at all... not sure where people get the idea there is blood everywhere. Leroy eats cleanly and neatly and if the meat is semi-frozen, it's not that messy. I clean his crate (where he is fed) and wipe the counters. Sometimes he's fed outside. I think there's just as much risk making hamburgers for myself than handling his food. I'd probably get sick from my cats walking all over the counters with their feces covered feet. I have nothing against kibble because my cats are still fed that (and wet food). They are harder to convince going raw and I don't want to push it with them. 

I realize that some people may find CM's post are strong, but she has suggested very good points and resources that has helped me. It's up to the individual to decide what they want to feed. 

Also, I never pick up poop in the yard. Since bring raw fed, the dog poop disintegrates immediately instead of marinating in the sun for days. It turns white and looks like fossilized poop which crumbles to an ash-like substance. I never worry about stepping in it cause it's powdery.


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

outwest said:


> One down side for some dogs fed raw is they have trouble gaining and maintaining weight. If you feed raw and notice your dog is getting thin or is thin, you may want to try an alternate feeding method to see if it makes a difference.


When I decided to put weight on Leroy, I went raw. He's gained 16lbs since I started and is maintainig his weight fabulously. If people have problems with their dogs gaining weight on raw, they are not feeding enough. Yes, it can be pricy but you don't want to skimp on how much they should be fed.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes, some dogs do really, really well on raw, but not all of them do. If your dog is not doing well on it, don't feel bad or blame everything other than raw food for their issues. It really could be the raw diet!! If your dog does poorly on kibble, try raw. Some dogs do much better on that. The point is, there isn't one best answer for every dog.


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

outwest said:


> GI infections can be contracted with raw food that has excessive amounts of E Coli or other bacteria that overwhelms the system. They can also be contracted in other ways, but almost all GI infections are caused by something injested.


I'm sure the first thing with a GI infection would be to focus on what the dog ate, then secondly to look at changes in environment. My cat shows his stress through his stomach. He was so stressed once that he had terrible diarrhea for days, with bloody stools. The vet of course asked me if he ate something funny, but it was just pure stress. So we can't rule out external factors either.


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

outwest said:


> Yes, some dogs do really, really well on raw, but not all of them do. If your dog is not doing well on it, don't feel bad or blame everything other than raw food for their issues. It really could be the raw diet!! If your dog does poorly on kibble, try raw. Some dogs do much better on that. The point is, there isn't one best answer for every dog.


This is what I told my friend. She was concerned about high levels of protein for a senior dog. The increased protein can be hard on their kidneys for some older dogs, that's why I told her to go with a decent, but affordable kibble.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Just to clarify, GI infections are usually caused by something injested. GI upset can be caused by all manner of things. You won't find anything pathological in the stool with a GI upset, but you will with an infection.


----------



## lilypoo (Jul 25, 2011)

We feed that frozen raw in combination with other raw stuff. Lily will not eat any raw other than the Instinct, but she loves it so much! Trix loves it too and is not a huge fan of rmb, but will eat some bits of other raw meats. OK, Lib also likes the Instinct but she loves rmb more, so she mostly gets those. I do keep grain-free kibble on hand for "emergencies" when we're out of the raw, and all my dogs like that too. FWIW, they all love Stella & Chewy's freeze-dried raw, as well as Nutrisca, but not the Nature's Variety freeze-dried so much.

I have two Pet Clubs that carry Instinct....Petco and Petsmart here have never even heard of any raw diet!


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> Just to clarify, GI infections are usually caused by something injested. GI upset can be caused by all manner of things. You won't find anything pathological in the stool with a GI upset, but you will with an infection.


If a dog has ingested something contaminated with e.coli, salmonella, campylobacter, c.dif, MRSA, etc. then there is a good chance this will be found in the stool of any dog whether or not the dog is ill.

Certain bacteria like heliobacter is naturally present in the stomach of many
Animals including dogs.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

As one who feeds raw and home cooked I very much agree with CM - surely everyone takes basic precautions when handling raw meat, whether for human or animal consumption. When I was going through chemo, and immunocompromised, I was more scrupulous - most of the time I reckon my immune system benefits from the occasional challenge! There is (at last) some research into raw v home-cooked v kibble here: Leonie Pujol It ia based on cats, rather than dogs, but makes for very interesting reading - especially when you consider that the kibble used was a high quality one, and that cat kibble usually contains a far higher proportion of easily digestible animal protein than that fed to dogs.


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I am just not understaning some of these statements against raw - especially that are being pointed at CM. Also when someone is sharing their experience and you have little to none first hand I find it interesting to even debate something and then turn it into little personal jabs. 

When feeding raw to any dog- research on best practise is so important to be successful. And most that try correctly do very well.

In the 3 years we have been feeding raw one of my 5 dogs had a stomach issue and had to go to the vet (otherwise none of my dogs have been to the vet accept for vaccines). I went to my vet that is anti - raw 100%. At the time my girl got sick, she was on kibble for 2 + months - I had tried going back because Kai came kibble fed. My vet told me to get her back on raw. All sorts of tests were ran and nothing. 

Feed your dog what works for the dog and you. One day soon...raw will have better statistics (there are some out there now ) and then I hope people can have an open mind - not to chose raw over kibble but to understand it better. Raw is very safe for dogs if fed properly. 

I think accusing someones vet of wrongly diagnosing a dog or other dogs is a bit extreme. Then to imply CM turns opinions into facts....

Also - raw will make dogs fat! You have to be sure your dog gets plently of exercise and keep portions correct. I have never heard of raw feeding making dogs thin. 

I love raw! I open the container throw my dogs their meat and no mess! Rarely does meat hit the floor LOL


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Olie said:


> I am just not understaning some of these statements against raw - especially that are being pointed at CM. Also when someone is sharing their experience and you have little to none first hand I find it interesting to even debate something and then turn it into little personal jabs.
> 
> When feeding raw to any dog- research on best practise is so important to be successful. And most that try correctly do very well.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your comments..and Ive wasted enough time on this thread..never have I gotten into a "back and forth" such as this except on one other thread about raw food, which was mostly with CM. 

Part of me wants to defend my thoughts once again and pull out all the comments that support your misunderstanding of my comments...but no matter how much things are explained sometimes the will to debate becomes stronger than the facts. So, Ill just leave it at that and remind myself that the lesson learned is dont be pulled into arguments on dog forum re: feeding


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

I wanted to make a apology to CM publicly. I thought about whether to let it go on the board and just apologize in private as to not create more drama..but then I felt it really is unfair to behave poorly in public and then apologize behind the scenes. I was feeling really down about something totally unconnected to dogs..and I think I just got in a nasty place and took it out here..its not like me and I want to say sorry for being that way to anyone who was following the post. I do have different ideas about raw feeding than CM but I value her opinions on many things. and have considered her a friend..so I hope you will forgive me and know that I didnt mean to be on a personal mission..sometimes we are not fit to be around other human beings  This was one of those times!


----------



## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I feed both commercial raw as well as RMB. I don't see one necessarily "better" or "safer" than the other. In fact, there were quite a few times I saw the door of the freezer where commercial/packaged raw were sold not being closed tight! I think we just have to use our common sense and handle any edible items, raw or cooked, safely. 

We go to a two-vet practice - one vet is really against raw and the other one …. I won''t say she's pro-raw but she is not against raw. I choose to see the one that doesn't blame everything on raw. Problem solved.

Some people think raw is great and only want to feed raw. Some want to do a combination of raw and home cooked diet. Some decide to feed kibbles. As long as we are comfortable with our decision, I don't see any problem there. It's just like some of us don't want to have any kids while some love kids and want to have 5+. I don't see the need of convincing me to have a bunch of kids when I don't want any (how I wish my MIL is reading, LOL)

We all love our dogs. We all love our poodles. And we all want the best we feel we can do for OUR OWN dogs, right? So let's just stay that way


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I checked yesterday and the PetCo has Natures Variety Instinct Raw in all flavors, etcetera. They also carry a number of other raw brands. So, check you local PetCo if you are having trouble finding premade raw. They are carrying it out here now, so if not where you live, it should be soon.


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

*What was the cost at petco?*

Was it cheaper than your regular source?


----------



## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

LEUllman said:


> He gobbles down a 1/4 patty (2oz) twice a day. Our local "Healthy Pet" store gives a discount if you buy six or more packs and pay up front. You can then take home one pack at a time as needed; basically, they store the excess in their freezer for you, and you drop in and pick up as needed. It's a good scheme for all concerned, as I rarely get out of there without buying a bag of treats or a fun new toy.
> .


My Spoo won't touch HPP processed raw but if your minis love it, then lucky for you. LOL- I'll bet they wouldn't store for a pack of standards, but an amazing score for you! It's wayyyyy to spendy for a Spoo so I'm working on getting delivery from a raw co-op.



CharismaticMillie said:


> Everyone is different in their methods. I will say that I rarely feed something like a chicken bone out of a bowl. What is the point? I feed outside or on a surface that I clean after each meal. My preferred method is to feed on a towel and wash that towel frequently.


Indoors, I use fresh towels every time & launder immediately- always laundry to be done. As long as there's red meat on the bone, R stands to eat, constantly stepping around it to get the best angle *LOL* Only when the meat is gone does he lay down to really tuck into the marrow. I still have him wear his Poodleit gaiters though.



outwest said:


> One down side for some dogs fed raw is they have trouble gaining and maintaining weight. If you feed raw and notice your dog is getting thin or is thin, you may want to try an alternate feeding method to see if it makes a difference. Many dogs do very well on raw, many better than on any kibble, but some do not.


This can be true, I have had to practically double (at least for now) my Spoos raw daily portion...... capitol E Expensive. That said, he has allergies to ALL kibble fillers, he's intact, has 12 acres to roam, has regular doggy play dates, attends 2 beginner agility classes & many others.

There is no one right way other than knowing your own dog's health, researching nutrition & making an informed choice. *Ms Stella*, that was big of you; I tip my hat to you, madame :clap2:


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Ms Stella said:


> I wanted to make a apology to CM publicly. I thought about whether to let it go on the board and just apologize in private as to not create more drama..but then I felt it really is unfair to behave poorly in public and then apologize behind the scenes. I was feeling really down about something totally unconnected to dogs..and I think I just got in a nasty place and took it out here..its not like me and I want to say sorry for being that way to anyone who was following the post. I do have different ideas about raw feeding than CM but I value her opinions on many things. and have considered her a friend..so I hope you will forgive me and know that I didnt mean to be on a personal mission..sometimes we are not fit to be around other human beings  This was one of those times!


Ohh Stella's Mom I just saw this!! Make me blush!! I consider you a wonderful person and I look up to you. This isn't the first time you've reached out and it means a lot. I can be a crank, for sure! It can be disproportionately harder to get along on forums than one on one sometimes. I appreciate and value your friendship.


----------

