# Would you consider a breeder who...



## bigpoodleperson

Would you guys buy/consider buying from a breeder that has an Excellent reputation, does all the health testing, shows her dogs, BUT has bred one bitch 6 times and another bitch 4 times?

I am having trouble getting over this. Everything else looks good, and she is very well known. This is the only thing ive found so far that i dont like, but i dont know if *I* think it is enough or not to cross her off my list.


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## cbrand

Absolutely. 

6 times is quite a lot, but was the bitch producing amazing puppies? I believe that a bitch who is a great producer should be bred. She gives back to the gene pool in a big way. I would rather see a great producer have 6 litters than an average bitch have two. This would all have to quantifiable for me though. If you are going to breed a bitch 6 times there better be evidence that she is an amazing producer. It would not be enough for me to have a breeder say, "Oh her puppies are amazing!" I would want to see titles, conformation or performance to prove that her puppies were closely meeting the breed standard ideal.

Keep in mind too that if you are breeder, you often want to see what your line produces when bred to different studs. For this reason, I think it is totally reasonable to breed a bitch 4 times.

Finally, every bitch is different. My Sabrina was a breeding machine. At the end of 8 weeks, you would never know that she had even had a litter. She was ready to go right back into the Obedience ring. Now Gracy? Not so much... one litter just about did her in.


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## Eklectic

Were they bred back to back to back or were they given a break between litters?
Was it detrimental to the bitch?

For me, it would come down to the bitches' health first and then to the puppies!
But how can you know about it (the health part) if you are not part of the process? How can you determine (as a buyer) that the bitch was healthy enough to have healthy puppies after 3 or more litters in a row?

Also, as a buyer, it might be hard to find out it! Most buyers do not know enough to check everything!


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## bigpoodleperson

Thats true Carol, thankyou. I was hoping to get other views good and bad on the matter. This bitch produced 20 champions out of those litters (one litter had 8 champions, not sure how many were in the litter total, but wow). I would call that a top producer. I dont know about performance titles. The breeders website is not helpful at all, and almost no pictures. She is close enough to me that i would like to visit her sometime though. 

I would assume that alot were back to back breedings though. If she is at least 2 years old before being bred (they do OFA), and has 6 litters, then depending on when she was first bred and how often her heats are then she would of been breed at over 8 years old. So i would assume (hope) that some were back to back.


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## Dogsinstyle

I would love to know which bitch that is! As far as I know there are only 3 or 4 that have produced 20 champions.
Carole


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## desertreef

I can only think of one, off hand... Graphic Sauvie Quick Silver. But I don't know how many finished Ch's she's produced.
There were many, but I agree 20 is quite something!


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## Dogsinstyle

I checked my SPD, she had 13.
Off the top of my head, I think Molly Brown's Cream de Cocao and Joycelyn Marjorie may have had 20-21, but I can't think of any others.
Carole


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## roxy25

bigpoodleperson said:


> This bitch produced 20 champions out of those litters (one litter had 8 champions, not sure how many were in the litter total, but wow). I would call that a top producer.


Just food for thought with a pro handler anything is possible  

I would not be worried I totally agree with cbrand on this.


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## TinyPoodles

*Numbers Game*

I don't get hung up on the "numbers" game.

Every "BREEDER" will have a different way of doing things or an idea on what is acceptible. 

I look at the female and if she is healthy, still producing healthy pups
conforming to the breed standard (which these obviously are) well I would have my answer and all things considered (health, title, testing) I would purchase a puppy "despite" the amount of litters. 
Must be one healthy mom too...good sign 

Obviously this person is breeding with a goal in mind (champions) so she is doing a breeding for a purpose as well.


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## Cdnjennga

I would consider the breeder, yes. That fact alone would not turn me off him or her. My main interest would be in visiting and seeing what quality of life the dogs she has bred have. The 4 litters I'm comfortable with, 6 does start to make me a little uneasy. While that bitch may be a top producer, she has spent a whole year of her life pregnant and another whole year raising puppies. I'd want to know what she's been up to outside of her mothering.

Every puppy buyer is different. For me, it's not just about producing "the perfect poodle". Its also about ensuring the breeder treats their dogs in the way that I am comfortable with them being treated. So if I were you, I'd be going to meet the breeder, check out their facility and talk about their breeding program. Then I'd have a much better idea of whether I was comfortable with those numbers or not.


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## bigpoodleperson

Ok, so apparently i wasnt reading fully. This website is very hard to understand, but this bitch was born early 90's. She is not even living, but Did produce this many champion offspring. She is Ch. Safari's Evensong. I know safari is very well known in the show world. Does anyone have any first hand experience with them? What are their dogs like? What kind of home life do the dogs have (kennel, house?)? How are their temperaments?


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## Dogsinstyle

Aha. If you have a white standard there is a big chance she is in the background. That was a different era, she was born in 1976.


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## Fluffyspoos

Dogsinstyle said:


> Aha. If you have a white standard there is a big chance she is in the background. That was a different era, she was born in 1976.


Lol look how proud that handler is!


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## wishpoo

I do not like their "deposit" policy - it does not mention puppy temperament at all !!!!! It concentrates on color and gender and nothing else. Also - for me it is very important that puppy does not have any of the major faults . What if there is one white female (supposedly your preference) , but she has off-bite and bad feet ??? If you refuse her - than your deposit would be "forfeit" according to their statement hwell:

Than this : "D. Genetic health guarantee. In addition, if the dog is diagnosed as having hip dysplasia, sebaceous adenitis, von Willebrand’s disease, or genetic eye disease within 6 months prior to 24 months of age, seller shall at buyer's option, replace dog under terms specified above (buyer pays for transportation but not a new dog)." 

They give health warranty for only 2 years - I like to see longer warranties ...

Since they give such short warranty - I would make absolutely sure that I see every single test done and all results before I go on with the purchase, and I would make sure that "addendum " is attached that includes very detailed description of "what kind of puppy" I am looking for so there wold be no disputes about puppy temperament or quality and deposit refund.

In general - I like breeders who give deposits back more freely and many do,
since most really good breeders have already LISTS of people that are waiting for their litters and do not need to "force" puppy buyers to "stick" around ; ) or should do so !!! If somebody "does NOT WANT A PUPPY" why would you "make them" buy it :doh: 

Actually - I would never give deposit before the litter is on the ground and about 4 weeks and looks promising !!! 



Best of luck


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## KPoos

I don't think they make them buy the puppy. What they do is keep money and sell the puppy to someone else.


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## wishpoo

I know LOL - they sell the puppy , of course - but people who give deposit and are going to loose it sometimes feel pressured to buy since money is already given and they start "rationalizing" and per swaying themselves that "it is a good puppy after all " LOL

If I was a breeder - I would never sell u puppy to a person who is "iffy" about the whole thing. I think that most good breeders also would not sell puppy to somebody who "is not happy " or sure and would give the deposit back !!! I know of many that do. 

On what grounds one keeps the deposit ??? It is not like particular puppy was specifically brought to this world for that specific person and now that it is "out" - oh NO - what now LMAO !!!????

I would understand it in only one circumstance - that deposit was given after 8 weeks of age - after puppy was examined , tested and agreed upon for purchase and breeder had to turn down offers of other people and lost good home for that puppy . 

I know of a breeders who would actually take puppy back with full refund after one week if arrangement does not work out , especially if puppy was shipped.


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## desertreef

Lots of good points.


I agree... who would ever force their beloved puppy on someone not wanting it? I can't imagine why not though.  

I sent a deposit back to someone that backed out, nothing to do with the puppy... but she asked if I'd return it because her husband was going to have some treatments for newly discoverd cancer. Sure, I thought, she could be lying... but I wasn't going to keep money when it could have very well been true and they need it as well. 
I got the sweetest thank you card, that made me cry ... and we've stayed in touch for over a year now. It would never have been worth keeping their money.

Now regarding waiting to send in your deposit till they are 4 weeks old.... you have to realize you take the risk to be down on the list or not on it at all, if you wait that long. I have someone buying one of my silver boys, this litter... it's his 3rd time. He keeps thinking he'll come over and spend time with the pups and see if they'll connect. Well, each time it was too late, connection or not! So he discovered... you snooze, you lose! 'Course you need to feel good about the breeder to begin with!


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## desertreef

Oh well that's happen to me before. He was ready to go, health certificate and all... but we couldn't get our schedules right for the puppy to have a short, straight flight. So they kept their dep with me for the next litter. It was frustrating, of course, but I also felt their home was not meant to be for him then. So he went to another wonderful home 2 hours away, so no need for that health certificate! 
I look at the long term relationship...


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## KPoos

See I had a similar experience with a mini breeder. The way she did things was to take deposits on a specific puppy but the litter was like 1 week old. Well, how am I supposed to put a deposit on a week old puppy? What if the puppy I pick at 1 week changes to something I don't like at 6 weeks? Or the litter is evaluated and the puppy I put a deposit on is deemed not a fit temperament for my household? That is just way too early to pick a puppy. The breeder wasn't pressuring me to put a deposit but did say that it's on a first come first serve basis and in that case I'd most likely lose out on the puppy that I had my eye on because I just won't commit on a litter that young. Why not wait to take money from people when the puppies are easier to assess or if you have a list of people wanting pets, put them in order of deposits received and pick a puppy for them based on what fits with their lifestyle? I passed on that breeder.


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## Dogsinstyle

Safari and Pinafore are breeders I would be honored to have a poodle from. I don't think Cynthia needs to worry about finding homes for her pups under any circumstance.
On another note, the litter she has on her page-
I saw the sire, Magin Driving Me Crazy at a show here last year, I really liked that dog, he had some substance to him.
Carole


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## wishpoo

Desertreef - I completely agree with you and I really like what you did in both circumstances !!! I also look for a long-term relationship and there is no reason for making "ripples" for a measly deposit or such IMO 

So far I made really nice and close relationship with breeders I like that they actually promised me opportunity to come and make a pick !!!! (after they pick one or two for themselves, of course !!!!). 

I choose them to begin with because of their excellence in show ring as well as taking care of temperament and health issues AND their friendly demeanor  where deposit or not - puppy is placed in the best home available for them (match -vise) and not "by the order" of received deposits.


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## Cdnjennga

wishpoo said:


> I choose them to begin with because of their excellence in show ring as well as taking care of temperament and health issues AND their friendly demeanor  where deposit or not - puppy is placed in the best home available for them (match -vise) and not "by the order" of received deposits.


That's exactly the type of breeder I like too wishpoo. I don't believe in first in gets choice of the puppy. It's all about putting the pups in the best home for them!


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## KPoos

I totally agree. I think that deposits should be taken, opinions can be considered on sex, then the picks chosen for breeder and stud owner, and the rest should be temperament tested and homes evaluated and puppies chosen based on what's best for the home and puppy.


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## bigpoodleperson

Ah, thanks DIS! I guess i really did have my information wrong! :smow: 
I will do more research, and i am close enough were i could/should take a day trip down to visit. If i do go down then i would be able to talk to her much more in depth about these good questions. 
She does have Excellent lines, but one of my concerns is no breeder interaction after i buy a puppy. I wanted to stay in touch more with my breeder. I know with some of the bigger kennels, after you buy a puppy you get put on the back burner.


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## Dogsinstyle

I do know that you will get plenty of personal attention from these breeders-
Calisun poodles
http://www.calisunpoodles.com/

Aris Poodles
http://www.arispoodles.com/welcome.htm

Tango poodles
http://www.tangopoodles.com/welcome.htm

D'Gani Poodles
http://www.dgani.com/

They all have very nice show quality dogs.
Carole


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## dbrazzil

This is all some very good information. Thanks for sharing.


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## cbrand

Dogsinstyle said:


> I do know that you will get plenty of personal attention from these breeders-
> Calisun poodles
> http://www.calisunpoodles.com/
> 
> Aris Poodles
> http://www.arispoodles.com/welcome.htm
> 
> Tango poodles
> http://www.tangopoodles.com/welcome.htm
> 
> D'Gani Poodles
> http://www.dgani.com/
> 
> They all have very nice show quality dogs.
> Carole


Please make sure that you check pedigrees on Poodle Health Registry whenever you are looking at a litter. The information is not complete, but it is at least one piece of the puzzel.

One of the breeders listed above is using a stud dog whose full littermate has Addisons. No line is totally clean, but my biggest beef is that this stud is offered to outside bitches and the breeder does not seem to be sharing this information with people who come to her for stud service. I personally talked to one breeder with a litter on the ground by this stud who had not been told. 

Yes.. breeders should do their own research but I think it is the responsibility of stud dog owners to let folks know about all known health issues in a line.


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## Dogsinstyle

That is right, you need to do your research on a particular dog or litter.
Epilepsy is rampant in the top white show lines, but is rarely mentioned in public.
Carole


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## bigpoodleperson

One of the breeders on that list i have already thought of. She is further away then i wanted though. I know someone on another board who got a female from her and LOVES the dog and breeder. 
Another breeder on that list i crossed off awhile ago as i saw too many of her dogs in the health registury for my comfort. 

Thanks for posting the list though! I am waiting until after the holidays to do any visiting. It will help me mentally to see if someone has made the short list or not. I am one of those people who can be sold a snow cone in a blizzard though!! :smow: :doh: So i need to bring a list of questions with me, and do alot more homework. Thanks guys!!!


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## TinyPoodles

wishpoo said:


> I do not like their "deposit" policy - it does not mention puppy temperament at all !!!!! It concentrates on color and gender and nothing else. Also - for me it is very important that puppy does not have any of the major faults . What if there is one white female (supposedly your preference) , but she has off-bite and bad feet ??? If you refuse her - than your deposit would be "forfeit" according to their statement hwell:
> 
> Than this : "D. Genetic health guarantee. In addition, if the dog is diagnosed as having hip dysplasia, sebaceous adenitis, von Willebrand’s disease, or genetic eye disease within 6 months prior to 24 months of age, seller shall at buyer's option, replace dog under terms specified above (buyer pays for transportation but not a new dog)."
> 
> They give health warranty for only 2 years - I like to see longer warranties ...
> 
> Since they give such short warranty - I would make absolutely sure that I see every single test done and all results before I go on with the purchase, and I would make sure that "addendum " is attached that includes very detailed description of "what kind of puppy" I am looking for so there wold be no disputes about puppy temperament or quality and deposit refund.
> 
> In general - I like breeders who give deposits back more freely and many do,
> since most really good breeders have already LISTS of people that are waiting for their litters and do not need to "force" puppy buyers to "stick" around ; ) or should do so !!! If somebody "does NOT WANT A PUPPY" why would you "make them" buy it :doh:
> 
> Actually - I would never give deposit before the litter is on the ground and about 4 weeks and looks promising !!!
> 
> 
> 
> Best of luck



Just a bit about "deposits"... When a person decides to make a purchase I would like to know they have fully thought this out, that they fully understand and have read all about me and my dogs BEFORE they tell me they want a puppy.

A deposit is a financial commitment. by asking for a non-refundable deposit people comprehend the significance. It makes a person hesitate and stop and think...hmmm am I serious and committed enough to put and possibly loose a deposit. 

As a Breeder of course I have had many people interested in a puppy "verbally" but I can't go a head and breed based on that. I need to know that I am breeding the best puppy I can for myself but...also that I have enough loving homes lined up for those extra available puppies that are going to be produced. A Deposit helps me to know this. 

Have I returned deposits (non-refundable) deposits...sure I have...but I don't want anyone to think that is the norm... or the impact and level of thought behind putting a deposit on a puppy will be drastically diminished.

Deposits should only be expected to be refunded... if there is no available puppies ... 

deposit definition: 
1 : to place especially for safekeeping or as a pledge, or partial payment


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## bigredpoodle

I agree with this to a point However I have given deposits back after finding out unsavory things fro m references, I do check .. Or because of life changing situations. so I do state non refundable but then things do happen ....


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## wishpoo

I completely disagree - "to refund only if puppy is not available" !!!!????? I am giving deposit for a CERTAIN puppy - not just a color and the gender - I want a puppy with certain temperament and certain quality. 

Nobody can warranty to me that they will have black male, with correct bite, descended both testicles, correct feet and outgoing but calm temperament and with a retrieving drive. Now - if litter is born with 7 pups of which there are 3 girls and 4 boys - 2 white boys and 2 black - WHAT ARE THE ODDS that one of the 2 black ones will be just as I want him to be :rolffleyes: !!! Very small .... ; ) !!!!


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## Keithsomething

I think it makes some sense
when I find the perfect breeder I'll send my deposit to them so that they hold one of the pups from A litter for me
but I'm willing to wait awhile for the right dog from the right breeder so my deposit might last 3 litters or it might be used for the first litter that comes along whichever happens first

but for someone who wants a puppy at a certain time and has a certain criteria for said puppy I can understand what you're saying Wishpoo


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## cbrand

wishpoo said:


> I completely disagree - "to refund only if puppy is not available" !!!!????? I am giving deposit for a CERTAIN puppy - not just a color and the gender - I want a puppy with certain temperament and certain quality.
> 
> Nobody can warranty to me that they will have black male, with correct bite, descended both testicles, correct feet and outgoing but calm temperament and with a retrieving drive. Now - if litter is born with 7 pups of which there are 3 girls and 4 boys - 2 white boys and 2 black - WHAT ARE THE ODDS that one of the 2 black ones will be just as I want him to be :rolffleyes: !!! Very small .... ; ) !!!!



In that case I think I would tell you that there was a good chance that I might not have what you wanted and I would give you the opportunity to not put down a deposit. 

I don't take deposits until a litter is born. At that time I ask people to commit. For companion dog buyers, I don't guarantee color or gender. I tell them that I will match them with the puppy that best suits their family and needs.

If you like my dogs and my breeding program I would hope that you would trust me to give you a quality puppy.


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## Keithsomething

thats what I want Cbrand
I want a breeder who is going to hand pick my puppy for me out of their litters
I won't be around the puppy for 8 weeks to know how it is all the time but the breeder is 
so I think the pup they say is for me is probably for me


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## wishpoo

Cbrand - I absolutely agree with you in principal  Trust is of utmost importance 

Still - nature has the mind of it's own and not all puppies are of the same quality in any single litter. No way ! 

The "almost" correct assessment can be done only when puppies are about 7-8 weeks old. Temperament testing should be done by OUTSIDE source anyway or it will not be correct !!!

"Companion" owners pay same price for a puppy as a "show" home , and I see no reason why "companion" owner can not have a saying ; ) ! ESPECIALLY if "companion" puppy owner knows what he/she is talking about and knows what he/she wants : )))


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## Buck

cbrand said:


> In that case I think I would tell you that there was a good chance that I might not have what you wanted and I would give you the opportunity to not put down a deposit.
> 
> I don't take deposits until a litter is born. At that time I ask people to commit. For companion dog buyers, I don't guarantee color or gender. I tell them that I will match them with the puppy that best suits their family and needs.
> 
> If you like my dogs and my breeding program I would hope that you would trust me to give you a quality puppy.


Sure would trust you and some of the other breeders that are on this forum. Just by reading post, it says alot about who you are and your knowledge, confidence and commitment.


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## neVar

most of the breeders i know- take deposits when litter is born (Kiah i did place a partial deposit before the litter was born but the breeder had two litters coming i was interested in) 

DEPOSIT order does IMO give 'pick' order- when the breeder feels that there is more then one pup that would be appropriate for the home (say pet home wanting to do obedience) then that person can choose (ie brown one or the black one - or the one they feel they bond most with on the visit) out of those breeder picked pups... etc


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## Olie

I would assume if you chose the breeder then you have an idea of what their litter will likely be. I agree a good breeder should be able to determine which puppy is the best fit. BUT on the other hand or at the same time- to not get the color you choose or want because I might only be a companian home yet pay a large amount of money as a show home....that does not seem fair. I guess that part I dont understand:wacko:


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## cbrand

Olie said:


> I would assume if you chose the breeder then you have an idea of what their litter will likely be. I agree a good breeder should be able to determine which puppy is the best fit. BUT on the other hand or at the same time- to not get the color you choose or want because I might only be a companian home yet pay a large amount of money as a show home....that does not seem fair. I guess that part I dont understand:wacko:



Color is completely unimportant to the long term success of a companion in a pet home. Temperament and compatibility are everything. 

As far as picking order goes, since I don't take deposits until a litter is born, all my deposits come in at the same time (waitlist is built before the breeding). I don't allow buyers to pick their own puppy because because I have to do what is best for all the puppies and all the buyers. Family A may like the blue-collar puppy, but that puppy is really a better fit for Family B.


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## Cdnjennga

cbrand said:


> As far as picking order goes, since I don't take deposits until a litter is born, all my deposits come in at the same time (waitlist is built before the breeding). I don't allow buyers to pick their own puppy because because I have to do what is best for all the puppies and all the buyers. Family A may like the blue-collar puppy, but that puppy is really a better fit for Family B.


Agreed, that's exactly what we did with the 2 litters of PWDs we have had. For the second, one family had fallen in love with a puppy that we thought was better for a show/ performance home so they were momentarily disappointed. But that disappointment lasted for about 5 minutes and then they fell in love with their puppy and have never fallen out of love.

As for colour, well you can wait to put down a deposit until the litter is born. So if there's a colour in the litter that you really don't want, then you can wait for a litter to be born that is only the colour you want or go to another breeder.


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## thestars

Olie said:


> BUT on the other hand or at the same time- to not get the color you choose or want because I might only be a companian home yet pay a large amount of money as a show home....that does not seem fair.


Can you explain this thought out further please?

Typically a show home is going to pay more then a companion home and they are either going to have a co-owner contract or a show contract which is different then the pet contract. Some contracts can be quite extensive in the requirements for the show home. The possible show picks will be excluded first from the remaining litter. Some folks have evaluators come in to evaluate the whole litter. Pat Hasting does this service. They even evaluate which puppies can be in the performance ring and which should not based all upon the structure of the puppy. Those that don't measure up are placed with the homes lifestyle in mind, be it active, couch potato, children, etcetera. So you may not get the color of your choosing but you will get a puppy that meets your lifestyle and family situation. Sometimes their is very little difference in a companion puppy and a show puppy and sometimes you'll have no show puppies in a litter. Of a dobi litter that Pat evaluated at a seminar I attended, there was only one definite show prospect and one very small girl (runt) but was worthy to observe to see if she would grow big enough. All the others had structure issues. One was the rear assembly, she said that that dog should not go into an active or agility home at all. IMHO I think you would be hard pressed finding a show quality puppy in a companion home unless they were completely ruined to the ring and the owner handler gave up. That same dog may just need the right handling and learn the buttons that make that dog tick to be successful in the ring. George Alston has some good examples of that in his book.


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## bigredpoodle

same dog may just need the right handling and learn the buttons that make that dog tick to be successful in the ring. George Alston has some good examples of that in his book.[/QUOTE]

George does know his dogs ! 
Dont all breeders that sell show dogs have two prices ? 
And isnt that because they have to guarantee that the dog is show quality? I know this to be true for full registration anyway ..


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## Olie

thestars said:


> Can you explain this thought out further please?
> 
> Typically a show home is going to pay more then a companion home and they are either going to have a co-owner contract or a show contract which is different then the pet contract. Some contracts can be quite extensive in the requirements for the show home. The possible show picks will be excluded first from the remaining litter. Some folks have evaluators come in to evaluate the whole litter. Pat Hasting does this service. They even evaluate which puppies can be in the performance ring and which should not based all upon the structure of the puppy. Those that don't measure up are placed with the homes lifestyle in mind, be it active, couch potato, children, etcetera. So you may not get the color of your choosing but you will get a puppy that meets your lifestyle and family situation. Sometimes their is very little difference in a companion puppy and a show puppy and sometimes you'll have no show puppies in a litter. Of a dobi litter that Pat evaluated at a seminar I attended, there was only one definite show prospect and one very small girl (runt) but was worthy to observe to see if she would grow big enough. All the others had structure issues. One was the rear assembly, she said that that dog should not go into an active or agility home at all. IMHO I think you would be hard pressed finding a show quality puppy in a companion home unless they were completely ruined to the ring and the owner handler gave up. That same dog may just need the right handling and learn the buttons that make that dog tick to be successful in the ring. George Alston has some good examples of that in his book.


I am expanding off a previous post that stated same price for either/or show or pet. This I agree with. 

IMO - I want a particular color so I would chose a breeder that would accept that criteria for me. Grant it, I would likely have one or another color I would be fine with, but I would not pay for a color I didn't want. Maybe this sounds too picky. I am NOT getting anymore dogs for many years BUT right now if I were to chose it would be a Silver mini. I would not accpet blue or black because I went with the breeder for that color. Hope that makes sense


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## Olie

Cdnjennga said:


> As for colour, well you can wait to put down a deposit until the litter is born. So if there's a colour in the litter that you really don't want, then you can wait for a litter to be born that is only the colour you want or go to another breeder.


Agree with this 100%


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## cbrand

bigredpoodle said:


> Dont all breeders that sell show dogs have two prices ?
> And isnt that because they have to guarantee that the dog is show quality? I know this to be true for full registration anyway ..


No. I charge the same price, though sometimes I ask for a puppy back. It costs a small fortune to finish a Poodle and frankly it only increases my reputation as a breeder if/when someone does finish one of my dogs. 

My contract states that I can not guarantee that a show prospect will finish. This is because there is so much that goes into showing a Poodle. What if a Poodle is not in good hair? What if it has not been correctly trained or socialized? What if it is not in good condition? I would take back and fully refund for a show prospect who ended up with a bad bite or an undescended testicle, but it would have to be a major or disqualifying fault. Note... I am totally upfront about every fault a puppy might have.


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## bigredpoodle

cbrand I agree 100% with being upfront there is no benifit not to being that way. But in asking for a puppy back arent you forcing the buyer to breed?


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## Cdnjennga

bigredpoodle said:


> cbrand I agree 100% with being upfront there is no benifit not to being that way. But in asking for a puppy back arent you forcing the buyer to breed?


I would guess Cbrand means she asks for a puppy back if a litter is produced from the dog or bitch. If no litters are produced, then no puppy back.


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## Olie

cbrand said:


> No. I charge the same price, though sometimes I ask for a puppy back. It costs a small fortune to finish a Poodle and frankly it only increases my reputation as a breeder if/when someone does finish one of my dogs.
> 
> My contract states that I can not guarantee that a show prospect will finish. This is because there is so much that goes into showing a Poodle. What if a Poodle is not in good hair? What if it has not been correctly trained or socialized? What if it is not in good condition? I would take back and fully refund for a show prospect who ended up with a bad bite or an undescended testicle, but it would have to be a major or disqualifying fault. Note... I am totally upfront about every fault a puppy might have.


Thats all good. Curious what have you come across that you would ask for a puppy back?


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## bigredpoodle

A friend asked me to look at a contract for her the other day . The pup was 3000.00 with two puppies back using a mutually agreeable stud and all expenses were the puppy owners, even the shipping.. I thought that was a bit much....On the two puppies back that is ...


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## cbrand

Olie said:


> Thats all good. Curious what have you come across that you would ask for a puppy back?


From the last litter, I really liked Penny and she was my pick (head duly considered). The buyer wanted her as a show prospect so I agreed to sell her with the stipulation that I could have pick puppy back (mutually agreed upon stud, buyer to pay all show, testing and breeding costs). 

Now, I'm not sure the owner will get Penny finished so I'm not sure she will be bred. I took that gamble and it may not pay off.


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## cbrand

bigredpoodle said:


> A friend asked me to look at a contract for her the other day . The pup was 3000.00 with two puppies back using a mutually agreeable stud and all expenses were the puppy owners, even the shipping.. I thought that was a bit much....On the two puppies back that is ...


$3000 with two puppies back is extreme (is that two puppies from the same litter or two different litters?). I would assume for that price that the puppy was from one of the TOP kennels in the country and that it's pedigree read like a who's who of dogs with great track records of producing very, very good quality show dogs.


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## bigredpoodle

Nope ! And the contract did not say same or different litters... 
Needless to say I was a wee bit shocked... 
And from what I have heard this is not uncommon. In just poodles period.. 
The puppy back contract I mean .. 

So if youir Penny does not finish will you sign off of her (Assuming that you co own) and insist that she be spayed or will you still breed her and get a puppy back ?


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## cbrand

bigredpoodle said:


> So if youir Penny does not finish will you sign off of her (Assuming that you co own) and insist that she be spayed or will you still breed her and get a puppy back ?


I will sign off on her once the final decision has been made and she is either bred or spayed. 

As for breeding her, I don't know. There is a lot I really like about her and I think we could move forward in the next generation and address some of her faults by breeding her to the right stud. However, her owner is a vet who feels very conflicted about breeding an unfinshed dog and you know how I feel about proving breeding stock. On top of this, as I have said before, a lot of high quality studs will not be available to us if Penny is not finished. If she is bred, it will be a one time deal to give me a puppy out of Penny to go forward with. I guess we will cross that bridge when we come to it. It will be a couple of years down the road anyway. 

For now, I going to work on getting Delilah finished. Delilah isn't looking half bad. She grew some neck and her eye has tightened up a bit. She will probably come out in late spring 2010.


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## bigredpoodle

Well that makes sense... Is Delilah her sister then ?


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## cbrand

bigredpoodle said:


> Well that makes sense... Is Delilah her sister then ?


Yes. Her Brown sister.


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## bigredpoodle

OOOH LAH LAH DO you have pics then ?


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## Olie

cbrand said:


> From the last litter, I really liked Penny and she was my pick (head duly considered). The buyer wanted her as a show prospect so I agreed to sell her with the stipulation that I could have pick puppy back (mutually agreed upon stud, buyer to pay all show, testing and breeding costs).
> 
> Now, I'm not sure the owner will get Penny finished so I'm not sure she will be bred. I took that gamble and it may not pay off.


OK, got you.


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## wishpoo

So far, any breeder that I seriously considered never asked different price for companion vs. show puppy. The only difference was in the contract that came with it. Also, all asked just for commitment "to show" that puppy and finish it. Getting a certain number of Ch titles in one litter gives a big bragging right to any high-end breeder and "puppy back" deal is usually reserved for a breeding contracts and arrangements. Even if the puppy is finished it does not make it automatically a "breeding material". Health status and temperament are very important and sometimes Ch puppy just is not needed in certain breeding program period. The dog is than "retired" and enjoys his/her life as a pet.

I would not agree that show quality never ends up in the pet home - to the contrary , it is very hard to find costumers who are willing to show and invest so much money and time or just find showing of any interest. Actually just last month a "pick" puppy was available in one kennel because show home was not found. He was 13 weeks and breeder decided to place him in pet home since she herself did not need him in her breeding program. 

Regarding a color choice - of course, it should not be No. 1 criteria, but again, some people just love certain color more than the other for many reasons. I know people who would never buy white dog due to even more grooming issues. I find black absolutely the most elegant and perfect color for a spoo and it also has tremendous sentimental value for me since my first spoo was black. 

All in all, with so many breeders out there, one can find all kind of arrangements and prices and contracts or none at all ; ) - it is really costumers job "to seek until one finds"


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## Harley_chik

I feel conflicted about gender, so if the breeder picks that, I'm fine w/ it. I've talked to her about why I'm leaning towards female. (I have two males already and have never had a little girl.) Color is another issue for me. They are expecting three different colors from the next two planned breedings and two of those colors are my least favorite. (I won't say which, I don't want to offend anyone.) I've made it clear I want white and it's fine w/ the breeder. She feels the other two colors will be more sought out. (I'm always the oddball, lol.)


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## wishpoo

Best of luck Haley : ))) !!! May you get a "white-fluff girly-girl" soon


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## Cdnjennga

Harley_chik said:


> I feel conflicted about gender, so if the breeder picks that, I'm fine w/ it. I've talked to her about why I'm leaning towards female. (I have two males already and have never had a little girl.) Color is another issue for me. They are expecting three different colors from the next two planned breedings and two of those colors are my least favorite. (I won't say which, I don't want to offend anyone.) I've made it clear I want white and it's fine w/ the breeder. She feels the other two colors will be more sought out. (I'm always the oddball, lol.)


I have specific requirements too, which is why I'm trying to get on the waiting list with 2 to 3 breeders! I think a male is best for me as my mom has a dominant bitch who tends to get along better with males than females. And I also have colour preference, in the black, blue or silver area. As has already been said, the key is to find a breeder who will work with you, but also have a back up plan in case the right pup that meets your wants isn't available.


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