# study on neutering/spaying Poodles



## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Actually just realized this is the Poodle portion of a wider neuter/spay study across multiple breeds. Details of the study will be discussed at a webinar on 11/20:

AKC Canine Health Foundation

Kevin


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I think it's awesome to see some poodle specific data. I hope it will be possible to view the full findings. Great news for miniature poodles. I do think I still have plenty of questions that weren't addressed here. The behavioral effects of spay and neuter at different ages are of particular interest to me. Also incidence of renal disease which tends to be a big concern.

Since I want to do agility with Misha, I am very cautious and I'll probably evaluate the pros and cons after 1 year (and again at 2 if he's still intact).


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

That was a great little article, Kevin! Thank you for posting. What are your own pros/cons for keeping the boys in tact?


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Very interesting study, especially to see the poodle data. Thanks for pointing me to the article.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Thanks for posting this, Kevin. Looking forward to learning more in November.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

MaizieFrosty said:


> That was a great little article, Kevin! Thank you for posting. What are your own pros/cons for keeping the boys in tact?


My decision not to neuter so far is based on health. Before this breed-specific study came out, it seemed the potential negative health effects of neutering male dogs (not taking breed into account) outweigh the potential positive effects, even in the case of adult neutering. Given this, if my boys don't have significant behavioral issues attributable to being intact, there doesn't seem to be a reason to neuter.

But, if it can be demonstrated that neutering small male dogs like miniature poodles has no negative impact on health and longevity (except the inherent risk of surgery itself), then I may be willing to consider neutering. While my boys don't have behavioral issues, there are minor annoyances - for example, they wonder when outside more so than my neutered Sheltie from before, and one of them, Vontae, gets obsessive with certain females, even when they're spayed. We're also thinking of spending about 2 months/year in the US starting next year (we live in Taiwan), and given how many people in the US automatically give you the dirty look when they realize your dogs are intact, and given how many US dog parks don't even allow intact males, it may be more convenient to just snip them.

Anecdotally, what has everyone experienced in terms of potential neutering effects on miniature and toy poodles? 

Kevin


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm copying this from some previous posts. This isn't breed-specific.

"Regarding neutering, the science now seems to lean to leaving a male intact, with some exceptions."

A link to a very long article below from a previous post on this subject:

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/04/benefits-and-risks-of-neutering-an-evidence-based-approach/

and this is the link to an even longer paper by the same author:

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/wp-content...fiits-Risks-of-Neutering-in-Dogs-and-Cats.pdf

Excerpted from the conclusion:

"In male dogs, the individual benefits of castration are not clearly greater than the risks. In the absence of established problems with aggression, roaming, or prostate disease, it does not appear that neutering has predictable health benefits for individual dogs. And while the potential of increased cancer risk appears less significant for males than females, other breed-specific risks, such as that of cruciate ligament disease, are likely greater in neutered males. The population benefits, of course, argue in favor of routine neutering of male dogs. However, in terms of individual health, a strong case can be made for not 
routinely neutering male dogs."

Mine are mini's. We decided to neuter just after 1yr, when they'd pretty much reached physical maturity. The loss of those hormones too soon can adversely affect many body systems, some sooner, some later. In the research I've done online, it seems to me that the loss of the hormones, especially too young, might be the catalyst for a lot of the problems. If neutering is a possibility, or even if required by contract, etc, waiting til physical maturity is reached (age varies) gives your pup the best chances."

and this one which in one part touches on the evidence suggesting that neutered dogs still live longer, although there seem to be undeniable advantages in most cases to delay or simply not neuter at all. 

https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/t...ns-spay-neuter-effects-the-health-of-our-dogs

Your first link notes that the testing was done at UC Davis, so I'd call that a trustworthy source . 

The science is leaning to keeping the males intact at least til after reaching physical maturity. I chose to neuter my two because they will travel with us and if we can't take them, they'll need to be boarded.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Thanks for posting that article. It's always good to see what the latest studies show. I mean...you have to go by some study so why not believe the latest? Right?:alberteinstein: They're always changing their minds and contradicting previous studies, so I figure I'll just go by the latest. 

That said, my two toy poodles, the same age were intact until they were over 2 yrs old. Matisse was showing conformation so he had to be intact. Plus, the big deal to me was that they keep those hormones to help with the bone development. So my poodles are pretty stout in the bones, even my little pip-squeak, Maurice. The reason I decided to neuter was, although they were house broken, they would mark here and there. That was in my previous house. Having the two of them competing a little bit I suppose, made it very difficult to get a handle on. So I decided to go with my breeder's advice and neuter them. He said it should and usually does help with the marking. And holy smokes. It did...immediately. 

So, if you find that the pros to neutering out-weigh the cons, I don't see why not. As far as what other people think or the looks they give you, don't let that influence your decision at all. "Those who mind don't matter. Those who matter don't mind."


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Thanks for posting that article. It's always good to see what the latest studies show. I mean...you have to go by some study so why not believe the latest? Right?:alberteinstein: They're always changing their minds and contradicting previous studies, so I figure I'll just go by the latest.
> 
> That said, my two toy poodles, the same age were intact until they were over 2 yrs old. Matisse was showing conformation so he had to be intact. Plus, the big deal to me was that they keep those hormones to help with the bone development. So my poodles are pretty stout in the bones, even my little pip-squeak, Maurice. The reason I decided to neuter was, although they were house broken, they would mark here and there. That was in my previous house. Having the two of them competing a little bit I suppose, made it very difficult to get a handle on. So I decided to go with my breeder's advice and neuter them. He said it should and usually does help with the marking. And holy smokes. It did...immediately.
> 
> So, if you find that the pros to neutering out-weigh the cons, I don't see why not. As far as what other people think or the looks they give you, don't let that influence your decision at all. "Those who mind don't matter. Those who matter don't mind."


Glad to hear that! Thanks so much for sharing. Aside from the marking, were there other changes (positive or negative) to them after neutering - e.g. personality-wise or activity level-wise?

Kevin


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

My dog park definitely shuns people who don't neuter! The dogs are targets of aggression by other dogs, and they often hump and bother other dogs. So, I think this is a very valid concern of a dog park goer.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

MaizieFrosty said:


> My dog park definitely shuns people who don't neuter! The dogs are targets of aggression by other dogs, and they often hump and bother other dogs. So, I think this is a very valid concern of a dog park goer.


Yup I agree, and this is why our future plan to spend a few months out of the year in the US is making me think about this. In Taiwan, intact dogs are much more widely accepted, not to mention there are more non-dog park options for offleash playing/swimming.

Kevin


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Taiwan looks and sounds amazing!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Thank you for finding and posting this study. I'm also looking forward to the more extensive report.

Regarding my boys behavior, after they started maturing, the humping and inside marking was increasing. This behavior was a part of our decision to neuter but I was determined to hold out til I felt they had completed their growth. 

We got them scheduled to do the surgery a few weeks after their one year birthday. Not long before the surgery, I realized that I hadn't had to tell Remo to get off his brother, or anyone else, for weeks, maybe even a couple of months. The inside marking seemed to have stopped too. I don't know if the neuter just put the pin in it or if it factored in at all. 

For the rest of their behavior, I'd say there was no change at all. They're always going to be Boys with a capital B .


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Taiwan looks and sounds amazing!


As with the US, it's often a country of extremes. You've got passionate dog lovers on one hand; on the other hand, there are people who hate dogs (and all other animals) so much that they would lay out rat poison in various fields to kill dogs.

Kevin


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

kchen95 said:


> Glad to hear that! Thanks so much for sharing. Aside from the marking, were there other changes (positive or negative) to them after neutering - e.g. personality-wise or activity level-wise?
> 
> Kevin


Nope...no differences. And that bit about getting fat on account of neutering or spaying is a myth. If they are getting too fat, we just cut back on their feed. 

Anyhow, if you want to go to dog parks and there are intact females, I can see why there might be a problem with intact males. Or, as MF describes, if they are targets for aggression by other dogs....But if your dogs are intact but well behaved, if someone bitches about it at the dog park, but it's not a rule, then you could ask them what their reasoning is to object to your lovely, intact dogs. This is pretty much a U.S. misguided prejudice and belief that all dogs need to be sterilized as puppies. They don't act like this in Europe. They don't have this mentality about automatically assuming that it's necessary to sterilize ALL dogs, regardless of their owners' ability to be responsible. If a dog is aggressive, whether or not he or the other dog neutered or intact, he shouldn't be in a dog park. So, I personally, wouldn't neuter a dog just so you please people in dog parks. If you're going to be turned away because their rules say you can't have an intact dog, well..there must be other places to take your dog for fun, right? I've seen your awesome photos. But if it's really important that you go to dog parks, well then, you might find it better for you to neuter like the rest of the crowd.

Anyhow, I neutered my two boys because of the marking in the house that I just couldn't deal with anymore, especially when I was planning to move into a beautiful new house. So other than that, there is no difference in their behavior or activity level. Of course, they were already over 2 when they got snipped. (I forget now...maybe 2-1/2 yrs old.) But I've had other dogs in the past who were neutered as much younger dogs and they were just fine. So whatever you think is best for your circumstance will be fine, no doubt.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

MF is more experienced with dog parks than I am and she's probably right about the neutering so that everyone gets along better. I just HATE bowing down :adore: or going along with the crowd for reasons that are theirs. I never had dogs attacking my dogs when they were intact. Of course, I didn't go too much to dog parks. Personally, I'm not a fan. I took mine to the local one in my new town, thinking I'd give it a try... and everything was fine for several visits and then the last time a Dachshund attacked Matisse before we even got through the 2nd gate. I was PISSED! The owner blamed us! I reported him, as did another patron for a different issue. Anyhow, Matisse is neutered so that had nothing to do with it. It was an aggressive little s*** and an irresponsible owner. I'm glad I live in an area where there are lots of other awesome places to take my dogs. And they're not that into other dogs anyhow...a little bit at times, small diet of them. Mostly they like hoooomans.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

I’m leaning toward neutering when my co-own contract ends (had been thinking about the vasectomy option). One of my agility group members saw a marked reduction in sniffing from her dog in the performance ring once her (non-poodle) co-own was neutered. Unwanted sniffing is a real challenge.

Marking isn’t a problem for me, however, my boy is interested in ALL of the girls, even the spayed ones. It’s a nuisance for my beagle-X who is half his size. I don’t count on any unwanted behavior going away. It’s nice to hear that health won’t be compromised and there’s a possibility of losing the undesirable behaviors.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

scooterscout99 said:


> I’m leaning toward neutering when my co-own contract ends (had been thinking about the vasectomy option). One of my agility group members saw a marked reduction in sniffing from her dog in the performance ring once her (non-poodle) co-own was neutered. Unwanted sniffing is a real challenge.
> 
> Marking isn’t a problem for me, however, my boy is interested in ALL of the girls, even the spayed ones. It’s a nuisance for my beagle-X who is half his size. I don’t count on any unwanted behavior going away. It’s nice to hear that health won’t be compromised and there’s a possibility of losing the undesirable behaviors.


My boys still hump their girlfriend. But even neutered dogs do that. These boys still mark a lot outside. Matisse especially. (like I said, they were neutered late...well into adult hood.)They love to sniff, pee, sniff, pee a lot and hump...boys will be boys, right? So really the only behavior that I appreciated was the indoor marking. They can do what they like outside on their walks. I let them enjoy themselves when it's "their" walk. haha. 

So no guarantees about all the behaviors that go along with hormones. But it might help with some things. I knew there wasn't a guarantee but my breeder with so much experience with this stuff said, "it should help." So I took the chance, having always neutered my dogs in the past and earlier without problems other than overly lanky/tallish dogs when done as puppies with some. Not all. Some of the behaviors based on hormones are well seated if neutered as adults. And aren't dependent on hormones anymore...but almost habit wired in. All I know is my boys stopped marking in the house almost immediately. That's all I cared about. But they still do other things...they think they're really stud muffins sometimes. lol. You should see 4.5 lb Maurice mark with his back feet. Well, both of them do this. They do this for many seconds...where they scrape their hind feet on the ground and kick back, first the left, then the right, holding their heads high. That thing. You know what I'm talking about? It's excessive but amusing to watch. lol.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I’m interested in seeing the full report. The data are not significant in some areas, yet reported in a way that implies cause and effect. I’d like to see a bit more before coming to any conclusions.

It is intriguing that they separated out the breeds, and I’m glad there is breed specific data now. 

I’m struggling with when to spay Gracie. The breeder recommended after the first heat, and my vet concurs. She is nine months now and no signs yet. Part of me wants to just get it over with so I can stop worrying about when she is going to come into heat! But then I think maybe it’s best to leave her intact, as the evidence is conflicting, and still somewhat sparse. 

The only older intact dog I had was a golden retriever, who came to live with us at age 5- he was a male and was still intact. He did not mark in the house. The only issue we had with him is that he was an escape artist and had horrible recall that I never did fix. But this was a long time ago, the kids were young, and I was busy. I could have spent more time on that. I had him neutered at age 5, didn’t change the wandering....didn’t seem to change much at all actually. He was a great family pet overall.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Carolinek said:


> I’m interested in seeing the full report. The data are not significant in some areas, yet reported in a way that implies cause and effect. I’d like to see a bit more before coming to any conclusions.
> 
> It is intriguing that they separated out the breeds, and I’m glad there is breed specific data now.
> 
> ...




The report (the one listing all the breeds studied) actually does point out that correlation does not equal causation, so I don't think the report, whatever its details are when we find out in the November webinar, will go as far as saying that neutering "causes" or "doesn't cause" anything. 

Yeah I don't go to dog parks in Taiwan either, for all the concerns that others have cited. But while in Taiwan there are plenty of places outside dog parks for my boys to run off-leash and swim, my concern is that we may not find that many non-dog park places to do these things when we start spending two months/year in the US - likely Seattle. If I can find these places, then absolutely - I would definitely not go to dog parks.

Kevin


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Minis are not me... but Standards are. And my concern with early neutering is hormonal influence on bone growth. So I'm OK with a later neutering. Two years sounds about right. To allow all those large bones to knit properly. 

"Bottomline: for males, consider delaying neutering until they reach the age of two to avoid the increased risk of lymphoma, hip dysplasia and Addison’sDisease."


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## Saaanderud (Nov 29, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled, when I was a kid, we had a spayed female who used to hump, lifted her leg to pee, and actually kicked up divots with her hind feet when she did that covering-the-poop maneuver. It was embarrassing when she did to or in front of guests.
I am torn about when to neuter a male puppy who I would be training for service work. Later neutering would give added bone and muscle mass that would be helpful. On the other hand, marking and humping could make him unfit for being in public.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

kchen95 said:


> The report (the one listing all the breeds studied) actually does point out that correlation does not equal causation, so I don't think the report, whatever its details are when we find out in the November webinar, will go as far as saying that neutering "causes" or "doesn't cause" anything.
> 
> Yeah I don't go to dog parks in Taiwan either, for all the concerns that others have cited. But while in Taiwan there are plenty of places outside dog parks for my boys to run off-leash and swim, my concern is that we may not find that many non-dog park places to do these things when we start spending two months/year in the US - likely Seattle. If I can find these places, then absolutely - I would definitely not go to dog parks.
> 
> Kevin


Yes, the longer report was presented better. Where was the first report published? It’s a preliminary report, but the wording implies causation. A pet owner that reads this could come to the wrong conclusions and should know the limitations of the data.

For example- this phrase presents non significant results, except for a modest trend. 

_A cancer of concern is lymphoma, which was not diagnosed in either male or female intact dogs but was diagnosed in about a quarter of males neutered during the first year: a significant finding (p < 0.01). *There was a modest trend for females spayed before one year to have the cancer (non-significant).*_

These non significant results for females are followed up with this recommendation 
_
Bottom line: for males, consider delaying neutering until they reach the age of two to avoid the increased risk of lymphoma, hip dysplasia and Addison’s Disease. For females, delaying spaying females until they are at least a year old seems to avoid increasing the risk of Addison’s Disease, *and waiting until 2 years avoids the possible increased risk of lymphoma*.._

Why are they recommending a change in practice based on non significant results? A trend in data shouldn’t prompt that. 

This was one discrepancy that caught my eye as I was reading it, but I’m in the mode of critiquing dissertations now so I guess I had that hat on when reading it!

I contrast this to seeing Jean Dodds speak a few months ago- she reiterated over and over again the limitations of her research, and she has some pretty solid findings. I worry when research is not framed appropriately. 

That said, the premise of the study is great and I look forward to seeing it in it’s entirety. Thanks for sharing it!


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I at one time had a very well behaved trained GSD. This was early on when I had lots of time to spend with him and I was going to a GSD club with him for training. At that time you didn't see a lot of imported lines and he was a really beautiful large boy. No one neutered back then, you had females getting spayed but no neutering. When he was about 3 or 4 he started marking in the house, we never noticed but our house was getting a odd smell. Then one day we caught him and started checking sure enough most corners of the house he was getting. It all started when a n neighbor brought her female golden to me, I can't remember why but the dog was in heat. Made my boy crazy. Anyway I ended up confining him to one area of the house after having all the carpeting replaced. I lost the enjoyment of having my dog next to me. I also lost this dog to cancer at 8 years old. After that I stuck with female dogs for a long time. Our boxer was neutered at 13 months and so was my poodle. I find the boys to be loving dogs who love to be with their human, more so than females I've owned. (that could just be the dogs I don't know) but neither of my males have any personality changes, but they don't mark. I think once you allow sniffing on walks whether they are neutered or not they will sniff. That is how its been for us anyway.


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