# Toy titling- breeding worthiness.



## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm a huge proponent of health testing and titling to prove breeding worthiness. 
I was recently presented with the question, if one is breeding to specifically produce temperamentally sound, healthy family companions... do sporting titles really portray what you're going for? Would CGC, Novice level Obedience, Therapy Dog and even Trick Dog titles not be a better portrayal of your dogs worthiness? 
I was asked this question recently in terms of general companion breeds, using the Pekingese as an example. Thinking in those terms, regarding toy poodles which are mostly companion dogs, what do you consider appropriate? 
(I'm not saying toy poodles should not acquire rally/agility/sporting titles if they're capable and the breeder is producing sport healthy dogs. By all means, every title is valuable!)


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

You make several very good points. 

Another is that the best sport dogs often have high drives, which is not super ideal for a dog that's "just a pet". Of course the drive of the litter will vary, but isn't it better to tilt the odds a little more in your favor when looking for a companion of a decade or more? 

I am of the opinion that any breeding dog should have CGC-A, or at the very least be able to perform all the tasks necessary for it.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I think this is a good idea. The only problem I see is that there's nothing proving physical soundness. The nice thing about either performance or show titles is that they require a dog to have appropriate structure (at least at the time when they get titled). You could say the same for dogs that are purpose-bred for some other kind of work, like hunting, herding, police or service dogs. But you can get obedience titles and CGC-A with serious physical faults that you might not want to perpetuate to future generations. Not all of that would be caught with health testing.

Edit: If you're looking at conformation showing plus some kind of obedience/temperament titling, that sounds awesome to me for a pet dog!


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

lisasgirl said:


> Edit: If you're looking at conformation showing plus some kind of obedience/temperament titling, that sounds awesome to me for a pet dog!


Ah yes, my answer was also with the caveat that the dog is also titled in conformation. My Piper has her CGC but is also swaybacked with a straight front and poor rear angulation; definitely not a candidate for breeding even if she were pure poodle


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I think dogs worthy of breeding should be from 1) conformationally correct parents (champions in AKC conformation), 2) fully health tested, and 3) I would love to see rally, obedience, and therapy titles as well. The first two are imperative, while the third is a bonus. Poodles are pretty easy to train when they come from good stock.


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

I think health testing should be a no-brainer, including any tests recommended by the parent club, which should include patellas as a form of ch king soundness and structure. 
My only issue with the conformation title is the necessary you coat to obtain titles. Most companion dogs aren't kept in show coats and it's not necessarily a realistic coat for therapy dogs. IMO.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Mehpenn said:


> I think health testing should be a no-brainer, including any tests recommended by the parent club, which should include patellas as a form of ch king soundness and structure.
> My only issue with the conformation title is the necessary you coat to obtain titles. Most companion dogs aren't kept in show coats and it's not necessarily a realistic coat for therapy dogs. IMO.


I do think that's a problem with poodle showing (and showing for lots of other grooming-intensive dogs). It creates an expensive and unnecessary barrier for a lot of dogs IMO. I believe there are some breed clubs who allow a variety of coats, which makes things easier, and I wish AKC/PCA would move in that direction.

That said, checking hips and patellas isn't quite enough to make sure your dog is conformationally sound. For example, Archie's hips and knees have both been thoroughly checked by a vet, but he still develops issues with his movement if he runs too much on hard ground. So he can't go running with me on a regular basis, even though he's temperamentally suited and otherwise physically healthy enough to do so. It's not because he has luxating patellas or hip dysplasia (vet has cleared him for both); it's just the way he's set up proportionally and the health of his joints.

I'm sure that kind of thing is less of a problem in a mostly sedentary dog without an active lifestyle (for example, I'm pretty sure most pekes are pretty lazy), but it opens you up to back problems and such for dogs who are more active. Plus it's the kind of thing that can get more exaggerated with subsequent generations, which is why it's good to start as close to "correct" as possible.

Of course, there are breeds intentionally breeding away from a good physical structure in the show circuit, and I'm not really sure what you do about that, but the "square" structure in poodles seems to work out very well.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Mehpenn said:


> I was recently presented with the question, if one is breeding to specifically produce temperamentally sound, healthy family companions... do sporting titles really portray what you're going for? Would CGC, Novice level Obedience, Therapy Dog and even Trick Dog titles not be a better portrayal of your dogs worthiness?


This is an interesting subject - thanks for bringing it up.

I'm not sure there is a correct answer. Ideally one would want all the health testing, conformation, obedience/rally and agility titles. OTOH dogs bred for sports like hunting and agility may be too high energy for some pet owners, where as others prefer and may even require that behavior if they are interested in those sports or have a high energy lifestyle.

As a neophyte looking for a puppy, knowing that the parents were trained therapy dogs would be most attractive. Most people wouldn't understand the difference between the CGC and Novice Obedience. Trick dog is fun, but I'm not sure someone would translate that to calm obedient family dog in the way that "therapy test" proclaims.

BTW the breeder that I bought my dog from says he breeds for temperament because it helps in conformation.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Skylar said:


> This is an interesting subject - thanks for bringing it up.
> 
> I'm not sure there is a correct answer. Ideally one would want all the health testing, conformation, obedience/rally and agility titles. OTOH dogs bred for sports like hunting and agility may be too high energy for some pet owners, where as others prefer and may even require that behavior if they are interested in those sports or have a high energy lifestyle.
> 
> ...


Oops - I meant the minimum which I think is attractive for a pet would be all the health testing, conformation and Therapy dog training.

As for conformation - I personally detest that blow up - I think it makes gorgeous dogs look angry - wish they did away with that.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

I don't think I would agree that a breed title guarantees sound structure. I think many judges place typey dogs over sound structure. In poodles, I think this is leading to lack of angulation in front as people try to achieve the upright look that a poodle should have. This is compounded by grooming which makes it impossible to see the dogs' front angulation. Purely a personal opinion.

I look for breeders who do performance sports with their dogs, like agility or weight pulling (there is a local breeder who does this with her poodles) which require sound structure. I believe this also means they are breeding for temperament.

I think dogs should be judged by sound temperament in a sound body, and then typiness.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Sound health checks, and good conformation are a must for all sizes of poodles. I also think that clear demonstration of good temperament in the lines used to produce a particular litter is hugely important, especially for pet owners who may not have the time, interest or expertise to deal with a high drive dog. That being said, I think performance sports are a great way to evaluate temperament since the dog in a conformation ring has to put up with the work of being groomed to a show coat and having judges putting hands on them along with tolerating or better still enjoying the gallery of onlookers. In obedience, rally and agility the dog is doing things that require it to be finely attuned to the requests given by the handler. It has to demonstrate excellent impulse control, confidence, problem solving skills and the like to be able to qualify in those sports. Although the dog that does well in a sport like obedience or agility will be a drivey dog, they also are a dog with those desirable attributes that might make them a better companion for the person who knows how to find the "off switch" for their smart companion.


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

I personally like dogs with drive. But I do see the higher up sport dogs with an overwhelming drive and energy level. That's why they do so well. I don't think that would n crssaeily be a good fit for the common family dog. 

I do think confirmation isewxtremely important. However, as mentioned before, a lot of bad angles and poor structure can be hidden by an over abundance of coat. 

Definitely gives us something to think about.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I think a line that produces successful therapy dogs would be fabulous for most pet homes. I bet they'd produce a lot of puppies with even temperaments and openness to new people and experiences. Personally I get more excited when I see that than when I see performance titles, though those are great too.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

In my observation, quality really falls off a cliff quickly in Toys (and Minis). For that reason, I wouldn't dream of buying a Toy or Mini if the parents weren't both breed CH. A breed CH (plus health testing) provides SOME evidence of physical and temperamental soundness. With Toys, I would want a bold, fearless temperament, and the breed ring will reward that. We lost a great toy breeder last year when we lost Barbara Burdick. I always enjoyed the sight of her strolling around chaotic showgrounds with three or four beautiful black toy poodles strutting like they owned the place.


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