# Separation issues



## Clackman (Jul 2, 2013)

Hi. I am new to Poodle Forum and still trying to figure out how to do posts. Thanks for your help Manxcat! 

I know a lot has been posted on this topic, and I have read the other posts and gotten some good ideas, but thought I would post our specific situation. Every one is different, every dog and every family different. What a challenge trying to figure it out! I am realizing what works for some might not work for others.

Mitch just turned 8 months. He is an intact cream Standard Poodle. I plan on waiting until he is at least 15 months old to neuter him, on the advice of the breeder, and also from reading the research on neutering. 

He has had separation issues since we got him at age 10 1/2 weeks. He had good socialization by the breeder, had a good mother, was not separated from his mom too early. He only had one littermate, also a male. When they were first put into separate crates, they had a fit, screaming until the breeder would come back into the room. I don't know if this ever improved before I got him.

We were going to drive to get him (in another state), but at the last minute, hubby hurt his back and didn't feel capable of that much sitting, so I flew to get him. He was almost too big for the Sherpa carrier. He threw up twice on the way to the airport; then I had to get him in and out of the carrier several times (going through security, then we had a layover). After a couple of times getting stuffed into the carrier, I could not get him in without help. He knew what was coming. During the flight, he was drooling a lot and shaking some of the time. I had my hand in the Sherpa almost constantly, petting him for reassurance, which seemed to stop the trembling but not the drooling. At the airports while waiting, he was out of the carrier and seemed happy in my lap and on the leash. Very social with others and with me. Didn't seem scared at all.

The first night home, since it was about 2 am (flight delayed) when we finally got everything done and into bed, I let him sleep up on the bed (with pillows all around so he wouldn't fall) because I was too exhausted to try to deal with having him potentially cry in a crate. Second night too, then after three nights I figured a precedent had been set and it would be difficult to get him to sleep in the crate. But after maybe two or three weeks I thought better of this situation and started having him sleep in a crate in my bedroom. (Hubby and I sleep in separate bedrooms because of his snoring and tossing and turning.) Mitch was fine with that, as long as I was in the room. And after a while, I could even go to the bathroom or to the kitchen and he would not whine. Now he just waits in there in the am while I get dressed, make coffee, etc. and doesn't whine at all. It is a giant size Vari-kennel. He seems glad to go in there at night and falls right asleep. I throw a couple of treats in every night and he goes in readily. 

When he was still real young, I put him in a crate in a closed room for maybe an hour because I had to do some yard work (and it was too hot to have him outside -- no shade), and he barked the whole time. I waited a few seconds for him to quiet down before I went into the room (he stopped barking because he heard me approach) and let him out of the crate. Well, I tried that two more times, same result, except the last time, I could hear him banging on the metal door. There was blood this time, I couldn't tell where from, but I think he was biting the door rather than scratching it. At this point I got scared to leave him in the crate, having heard horror stories about dogs breaking their teeth or nails off.

We left him loose in the house three times, for periods of 30 minutes to 2 hours, when he was probably around 5 to 6 months old. We suspect he barked the whole time, but everything looked ok in the house. Then I discovered he had been peeing on the area rug, several times, and it was starting to ruin the hardwood floor. So we took up the rug. Another time, when I was outside mowing the back yard and he was in the house alone only for a few minutes, we discovered he had been up on the kitchen counter trying to see me out the window. He could have crashed through the window! That was the last time we left him alone at all. He goes to a training facility for socialization once every week or two, when I have to go shopping. I am afraid to board him because I worry about him being anxious and maybe bloating. Not sure what to do with him over the holidays -- I usually fly to my mom's, but can't do that now. I'd have to drive and take him with me but conditions in the winter here can be treacherous for driving and it's a rather long trip. My mom is too old and disabled to travel so I pretty much have to go there somehow. We had a housesitter with our last dog, but she works full time and is only here at the house at night. And she will be out of commission for a few months anyway.

By the way, we have had several dogs in the past, and none of them had this problem.

One behaviorist said that, unless the crate is his safe place, it's better not to crate him when we leave him. She also said, after he went to two socialization sessions at her facility, that she thought it was more bossiness or brattiness than anxiety. I don't totally agree. Maybe it is part that, but I think there is an anxiety component also. Another trainer suggested putting him in the crate while I am here, doing housework or something. I have tried that and he will lie down and lick a frozen Kong as long as I stay within his sight, but as soon as I go out of sight, especially if I go near the outside door, he sits up and ignores the Kong. 

I tried Adaptil spray but that didn't seem to make a difference at all. 

Mitch is our second Spoo. Our first one was the total opposite temperament, but he was our first Spoo and we thought mellow and not barking much at all was typical of Spoos. We found out differently!! This guy barks way too much. He seems really sensitive or something. He barks at tiny noises or moving objects even if far away, or reflections in a window, or who knows what. I go look and can't see or hear anything! I have been playing the radio and wonder if the voices on the radio even get him to bark sometimes. He is not generally or overly fearful though. On the positive side, he is very friendly, with adults and children and other animals. He gets excited really easily, though. If someone talks to him in an excited voice, especially if it is high-pitched, he will still dribble urine a little. He is very excited when greeting someone but will settle down relatively quickly and just lie there chilling. We have taken four classes together, starting when he was four months, and are currently repeating Obedience 1.

He probably doesn't get enough exercise. I try to walk him for a half hour every day and at least one play session in the back yard, throwing a ball. Hubby just can't help in that regard.

His mother had separation anxiety but was over it by the time she came back from the handler at 11 months. 

So I have been trying to figure out why Mitch has separation problems. Oh, one more thing -- he is mostly anxious about separation from me rather than my husband. He doesn't even want me to leave him with my husband, although he settles down right away as long as I leave the house. If I put him in the room with hubby and try to do something in the house, in which case he can hear me, he will bark, so that doesn't work.

My hypotheses about cause:
1. He was in a fear period when we flew, and it was traumatic for him. He had just left the only family he had ever known and was thrust into a frightening situation, and I was his lifeline, so he bonded to me really quick and hard.
2. Heredity and he might outgrow it. But we don't know if his mom would have outgrown it or if she got over it because of going to the handler for a few months.
3. Because there were only two in the litter so they bonded more than if there were a lot of puppies.
4. His sensitive and also his alpha nature. Could be a combination of bossiness (how dare you leave me?) and anxiety.
5. Not introducing him to the crate gradually might be the cause of his crate anxiety. But that doesn't explain his anxiety when left alone loose in the house.

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to give a good history. Oh -- the household consists of two middle aged bordering on elderly (hubby and myself) adults, a cat about 11 years old, and Mitch. Hubby is in bed a lot of the time with back pain, so he can't help with Mitch much, or with the training process re: separation issues. 

I have tried leaving for just a few seconds and coming right back, but have not been consistent with that. He barks sometimes if I just get the mail, which takes maybe 30 seconds tops. I know not to play the music just when I put him in the crate, because I don't want him to associate the music with being crated.

Oh -- at the place where he goes for socialization, they, on my request, put him in a crate occasionally. She says he is "not too bad," barks a little, when they do this, then settles ok. Of course, he is not alone there, because there are people and animals coming and going.

I don't use his sleeping crate to put him in during the day, because I don't want him to get anxious in there and taint that crate, since it is his safe place at night. The other crates I have are an extra large Varikennel (smaller than his sleeping crate) and a Midwest wire crate. I feed him in the Varikennel in the living room. That's where it is when he is in it when I am doing chores, so he's not off by himself in another room, but part of the household.

That's all I can think of. Thanks so much for "listening." I'll be looking forward to any ideas on possible remedies for our situation.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I understand your concern about tainting the bedroom crate, but that is where you get the behavior that you want, so I would go with that - very slowly and systematically - throw some treats in, and leave the room. Start with one minute, let him out, then do it again an hour later. After you can do it successfully 10 times a day, increase the time to two minutes, and so on. If you get to an amount of time where you see even a hint of anxiety when you come back, back it up to an amount where you are sure he is comfortable, and proceed with the process. If you have a web cam, it might help you to be able to watch him while he is alone.
He definitely sounds like a fearful, rather then bossy dog.


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## Clackman (Jul 2, 2013)

Thanks, Tiny Poodles! Did you mean put his sleeping crate in the living room or leave it where it is, in the bedroom, to do the training/desensitization you suggest? I took your post to mean leave it in the bedroom. Which is what I prefer, because it is too big to get through the door without totally breaking it down. (The only reason we have such a big one for a Standard Poodle is we had to ship our last dog overseas and he was pretty tall.)


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## Clackman (Jul 2, 2013)

One more thing I have wondered about. I have heard about CDs that have been tested on dogs. Classical music was found to be best at calming, but not just any classical. It had to have a certain cadence, pitch, or something. Reportedly, some shelters use it and claim fantastic results. I was wondering if anyone had any experience with this. Also, some people have done a video chat with their dogs with separation anxiety, again, reporting good results.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Clackman said:


> Thanks, Tiny Poodles! Did you mean put his sleeping crate in the living room or leave it where it is, in the bedroom, to do the training/desensitization you suggest? I took your post to mean leave it in the bedroom. Which is what I prefer, because it is too big to get through the door without totally breaking it down. (The only reason we have such a big one for a Standard Poodle is we had to ship our last dog overseas and he was pretty tall.)


Oh most define toy leave it in the bedroom, as that is where the calm behavior is. Maybe even begin by laying down yourself for a few minutes before you get up and leave him. The point is to take the little good behavior that you have and very slowly build on it!
Good luck - it is clear how much you love him, and it will be worth the effort to get this in hand, because it is already having a major impact on the quality of your life!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Hi Clackman,
Firstly let me say I don't crate my dogs so can't help with that bit. However, we did have a huge problem with Pippin when she was young with me trying to go anywhere in the house without her. And because I am a horrid mum and wouldn't let her come upstairs with me, it meant if I was in but needed to go up to the bathroom even she would sit at the bottom of the stairs and cry piteously (and loudly!). It was only ever with me, not with hubby - much to his chagrin...

This was an absolute pain in the butt so I got a behaviourist/trainer to come to the house and have a look at the situation. After observing, she felt it was a combination of "I want to be with mum" and also "something interesting is going on and I'm excluded"! So she had me start giving treats and a verbal command ("back soon") when I left and one when I came back if she'd been quiet. I spent ages going up and down the stairs... But eventually Pippin got it, and now she's fine as long as I say "back soon". She knows I will be down eventually and if she's quiet she (sometimes) now gets a treat.

So my take on Mitch is it is probably a combination of issues, and also that getting a behaviourist to come to the home situation and see the issues at first hand is invaluable - my dogs behave very differently away from home and I needed Debbie to see what was actually occurring in the house. 

Our situation is better now we've got two dogs, but even pre-Pushkin I could go out of the room and leave Pippin behind (sulking no doubt) quietly.

It was all about expectation and routine.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)




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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

> She also said, after he went to two socialization sessions at her facility, that she thought it was more bossiness or brattiness than anxiety.


This doesn't sound like a REAL behaviorist. A board certified behaviorist would never attribute a behavior issue to anthropomorphism. Your feelings were correct, this sounds like astute separation anxiety. I don't know if it's isolation anxiety since it sounds like being away from YOU is more concerning for him than being alone. If it were isolation anxiety, he would be fine as long as someone else were with him.

But whatever. The procedure for both issues are pretty much the same. I've had great success with this protocol. If you feel that you need help and can't do it alone, then don't. Hire a behavior professional. More on that later.

Prepare small bits of Mitch's absolute favorite food. If it's bacon, then fine. No bigger pieces than your pinky nail. The goal isn't to fill him up but to build a positive association to your leaving.

Then think about what you do when you're getting ready to leave the house. What's your routine? Make a list and break it down into as many steps as you can. The more steps, the better. It means you have more to work with. Many baby steps are better than few big steps.

Since I don't want to type out a whole big list, let's say this is my very shortened list that I'm just using for this very brief example.

1. Get my purse from the closet.
2. Get my keys off the key hook.
3. Put on my shoes.
4. Leave the house.

Go about step 1 and as you do it, drop pieces of bacon as you do. You want to be steadily dropping them, one at a time. Practice step 1 as explained until Mitch is no longer showing any anxiety. If he becomes bored, even better. Only when this progress is made, then add on step 2. Keep practicing step 1 through step 2 until the same progress has been achieved. Only then, add on the next step to your routine, adding each additional step as you go. 

When you finally get to the step where you open the door and leave the house, break that down too. Don't just open the door and leave. You want to open the door and then go back to step 1 and work back to the point of opening and closing the door again. Then next time, step outside the door for a split second. Then the next time, step outside the door and close the door for a second. Then stay out for longer and longer each time progress has been achieved. Eventually, stay out there a good long time and even walk to your car and get in it. At this point, when you're staying outside for a while, you want to scatter a handful of the bacon AND also give him a food distributing toy (or chew) to keep him busy while you're gone. It's kind of like a consolation prize. Yeah, I'm leaving but look at what you get to play with! Start with toys that will hold wet food and if he takes well to it, you can eventually use toys that distribute kibble or other dried treats, if you want. At that point, you can probably stop the scattering of bacon before you leave. If the food toy is emptied when you get home, it's usually a good sign that you no longer need the bacon.

Practice the whole thing often. It's best to try to get in as much practice as possible before you actually have to leave the house to go anywhere for real. 

Yes, it's long. It's boring. It's repetitive. It'll drive you nuts. But hopefully, Mitch will become just as bored with you leaving as you are with the whole thing. You leaving should no longer be a big deal to him. Eventually, getting the scattering of bacon and the food toy should be the most exciting thing for him about the whole situation.

If this fails, then he requires a CAAB (certified applied animal behaviorist) who will work with your vet, or a board certified Veterinary Behaviorist. Medication may be in order. If enough progress is made, you may even be able to discontinue it at some point. 

CAAB: Directory of Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists — Animal Behavior Society: Applied Animal Behavior
Veterinary Behaviorist: Find a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist ACVB


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