# Aggressive behaviour vs Play



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

It's probably just puppy teething that causes the biting. Puppies don't know that biting us hurts, to them it's fun, and they do it a lot. It's our job to teach them not to. You can say " no " when she bites, and even imitate the sound of a dog crying when hurt, loud and high pitched. That helpes a lot.

Personnally I wouldn't pay for a behaviorist for a 3 months old displaying normal puppy behavior. You seem to jump the gun really fast for everything : food, vet, behavior... You should concentrate more on educating yourself and just enjoy the puppy stages. Your dog doesn't always require immediate attention by a specialist.

Unless she really IS a problem pup but honestly, I doubt it.

Can you post a video of this behavior ? Then we'll be able to give you honest opinions based on reality ?


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## joey1967 (Aug 26, 2015)

The ouch thing does nothing, the statue thing does nothing, the turn your back does nothing the walk away does nothing etc, I've tried to consistently show her that this type of biting is not ok...but there is other biting she does, she does play bite which is more gentle and she listens to stop, that she is very good with, its this other thing with her in a frezy for me to stop doing something she doesn't want done she literally starts up with a "huh huh huh huh" and it goes from there. The only other thing I can think of is that she is very scared because, the breeder smacked her face a few times to get a groom i in around her face because this is where I"m having problems and I've read this is not uncommon with bad breeders and mine is a piece of work which is something I'd rather not get into or my whole day will be ruined its that upsetting. I don't get worked up over nothing. You seem to be the only one coming after me telling me I have the problem not the dog, which doesn't help. I'm sensible when it comes to my dog as I"ve owned 5 dogs before her but none with her temperament or issues or coming from her background. You don't know everything about her because I don't post the whole story about what has happened prior to or after getting her.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I didn't say you were the problem, and I certainly don't want to offend you. But, as others also have mentioned, you seem a bit anxious, to say the least. Just relaxing and giving your dog time, would do so much good to the both of you.

A 3 months old puppy is a being in the making. It doesn't have problems yet. It has a temperament. Maybe this puppie's temperament is not suited to your own. That happens a lot. I am the anxious type myself, I am a very nervous person, and I can't stand high energy people, or dogs, unless this energy is contained. If I had a high energy dog, I would be miserable.

Honest, I'm am just trying to help you see this puppy as he is : a baby who needs time and patience, not a herd of specialists trying to see what is wrong with her.


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## joey1967 (Aug 26, 2015)

I really don't find this helpful, I love the dog we are bonded I am not an anxious person the dog is biting me when she does NOT want something done. She has learned if I bite hard enough this action that I'm trying to do will stop. How hard is that to get? Is it her temperament. Maybe that's why I said she may be very will full...that is a an issue with temperament will fullness...mixed in with a bad first 7 weeks of life doesn't help. I am financially independent, I can afford a behaviourist a very well qualified once to figure this out so i don't have to guess. I was looking for other poodle owners who may have crossed this bridge with their pup at one time or another, you haven't, so thanks for the input, which wasn't much.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

My minipoodle came from a very good breeder and was given the best of everything by the breeder, including weekly grooming sessions from the age of 3 weeks. I thought he would be rather easy to groom, which I do myself. Not the case AT ALL. I had a friend hold him while I tried to groom him at 10 weeks, and he wiggled vigorously and tried to bite us, especially when grooming around the face. We got some grooming done but not a lot.

After the friend went home, I waited until about 10 pm at night when he was very very tired. I put him on the grooming table and fed him treats and gave him rawhide sticks to chew. He fell asleep. I groomed him laying down on the table from top to bottom while he sleep. If he woke up, I gave him more treats and chews.

I did that for several weeks, basically grooming him when he was very tired. When he was about 3 months old, I thought it was time to have him sit and stand when groomed. I put a grooming noose around his neck and under one arm (advice of the breeder) and was able to do a lot of grooming while feeding him treats. When I went to do his face, he again tried to bite me, not a very mean effort, just snapped at me. I did give him one swat on the butt and when he settled, treated him and proceeded to shave his face.

So my best advice it to groom your pup when he is tired, give chews if treats are too much for his tummy, and lots of affection. 

Slapping a puppy's face is one of the worse things that can be done to them because it makes them fear having a person's hand near their face. If this was done to your dog, then you need to touch his face off and on all day with something he likes (a toy, a chew, etc) and withdraw quickly before being bitten. Use a high pitched silly voice when doing this type of thing. If he will grab onto a toy you are holding, pet his face or head with your other hand. Be creative in ways to touch his face safely.

As far as a behaviorist is concerned, it might be good to have someone actually see your dog than have us advise you without even seeing a picture of your dog. It is very hard for us to know your reality and give advice on just one aspect of your dog's problems.

All of us have gone through the shark phase of puppyhood, and we all moan and groan and ask when will it end. So a lot of this is just a phase which will pass. Your puppy is so very young, and it will get better.

PS - Just thought of something else that may or may not help. When I had a pet gerbil, if I did not hold it, it would not be tame enough to be held. Basically, if I let his biting prevent me from holding him, he would always try to bite me. So I put on leather gloves so that I could hold it gently and pet it so it got used to being held and I let him bite my gloves to learn that biting would not make me stop holding him. Eventually I was able to stop using gloves. Just an idea. Protect your hands from the sharp puppy teeth just to hold you dogs face gently sometimes to show he cannot stop you from doing that. Do it for a short duration so as not to stress him. Then reward when he stops trying to bite.


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## joey1967 (Aug 26, 2015)

I have found some similar threads by doing a search but they are outdated but I found some useful information. The only difference is my dog is a bit younger than the other posters dog. This isn't a game for my dog I've had another person just try and brush her and wanted her opinion and she said she definitely is aggressive biting not play biting so I have another opinion from someone that knows the difference. She's tired right now sleeping on the floor she is a SPOO not a miniature so that makes this even more important that I get this under control before it escalates into adolescents. Anyways thanks. My apt with the behaviourist trainer is tonight.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I never said your puppy was play biting, in case you thought I did. Puppies often are biting for real, not play, usually because they are afraid of a new experience. 

I hope you find some useful solutions with your behaviorist since we on the forum do not seem to be able to help you. I do not think you have gotten much out of your posts on this forum and a real life person is a better format for you.


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## joey1967 (Aug 26, 2015)

I wasn' t implying again that people here haven't helped, I was looking for help from those who may have had a similar situation with reactionary aggressive biting in a puppy that was behaviourally driven to stop an unwanted activity from occurring. The first person that answered said I was overly anxious, again, which makes it about the 8th time, I've been blamed for my behaviour, nothing being said about the question at hand, other than relax. I'm sitting here with a bleeding hand from trying to demonstrate to my friend trying to groom her with a simple plastic brush...I really feel my point gets lost in all the threads people answer but it has nothing to do with the question I'm asking. Just relax...well I am concerned about my dog's behaviour...is that such a bad thing?


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I think a behaviorist is an excellent idea. An expert that can see the behavior while it happens and advise. 

I also hear how frustrated you are and I know you are trying very hard to do right by your puppy.

Some neighbors once went out and brought home a beautiful ChowChow puppy. It was just 8 weeks old. I went to meet it. As soon as I walked in it started growling and showing it's teeth. This dog was not frightened and not playing.

My daughters BF brought home a Pitt Puppy and he brought it over. It was 8 weeks old. It too growled and showed teeth. Went after my chihuahua (this was before we had Misha). It bonded to the BF's father but one day out of the blue, bit him all the way to the bone. They gave the dog to a Pitt rescue, the dog was maybe 5 months old. The lady was a "specialist" in rehabbing Pitts. After a few months with her, The dog attacked her and put her in the hospital. 

Puppies CAN be aggressive and the behaviorist should be able to determine what is going on with your pup. 

I hope the behaviorist can help and you can mold your pup into a wonderful dog. 

Don't be discouraged. I will be anxious to hear what the behaviorist says.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

No, your concern is not bad, but you are looking for answers that it seems we cannot give you. I think the search function on this forum is giving you better answers than we can in a back and forth posting. I think it is a communication problem between you and those of us responding to your posts. We are just not on the same page apparently. 

I hope you get the answers you are looking for tonight.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I think puppies can be feistier than others. 

A long time ago my boyfriend and I had a Jack Russell puppy. This was before I knew much about dogs. I caught him in the act of destroying something and kind of chased him into a corner. This 3-4 month old puppy let out a murderous growl and showed his teeth at me, lunged at me trying to bite me. I was actually scared of him and left him alone. 

I have had 3 poodles and it has been in none of their nature to bite or be aggressive even in the most uncomfortable of circumstances. I know anything is possible...but when given the choice my dogs have always taken the submissive role. 

So I agree that your puppy may be feisty and if you think it can escalate into aggression, like N2 said a behaviorist would be the next step.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Well I take that back. My mini certainly could growl with the best of them. But he was all bark and no bite. He would probably try to make himself as small as possible or run away before he actually bit someone.


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## catsaqqara (May 20, 2011)

Your puppy is afraid due to past mistreatment so you are going to need to show her that there is nothing to fear. You can change the way she thinks about grooming with treats. Start slow and break the action down into steps and reward each step until she is ready to progress. 

You can begin with an exercise like this  counter conditioning grooming tools (video)  with the brush, clippers, tissue (for eyes) anything she reacts to. You should also counter condition her to reaching and touching, like this handeling exercises (video)  She is using a clicker, a clicker is a great training tool that can be used to teach tricks, and can help with aggression and fear. Here is a video about clicker training What is clicker training by Kikopup (video)

Here is another video showing that aggression can be treated with counter conditioning counter conditioning aggression  

You should be positive during any kind of grooming, being frustrated is a negative emotion that dogs can pick up so if you become frustrated take a break and start again later.

I have personally used counter conditioning with and without the clicker and think it is a wonderful way to help dogs be more comfortable with the things that they are not.
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I forgot to say that that if she becomes fearful or aggressive during the training then you are moving too fast, take a step back in training and go forward at her pace.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

joey1967 said:


> I really don't find this helpful, I love the dog we are bonded I am not an anxious person the dog is biting me when she does NOT want something done. She has learned if I bite hard enough this action that I'm trying to do will stop. How hard is that to get? Is it her temperament. Maybe that's why I said she may be very will full...that is a an issue with temperament will fullness...mixed in with a bad first 7 weeks of life doesn't help. I am financially independent, I can afford a behaviourist a very well qualified once to figure this out so i don't have to guess. I was looking for other poodle owners who may have crossed this bridge with their pup at one time or another, you haven't, so thanks for the input, which wasn't much.


I don't appreciate the way you are talking to me. You don't seem to know what you're doing, but you don't listen to anyone. I even think you might be a troll. Members on this forum are very patient with you and repeating the same things over and over again. I am done with you. You won't see me reply to your posts anymore.


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## joey1967 (Aug 26, 2015)

My behaviourist uses the following methods behaviour modification plans that are humane and scientifically sound. Desensitization and counterconditioning, classical conditioning, and other appropriate methods that are not only dog-friendly but are long lasting and effective.


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## joey1967 (Aug 26, 2015)

Actually I don't know what I am doing with this pup because she is so screwed up and that is why I am working one on one with a trainer. If that comment was meant to "bring me down' like your other comments and you feel better fine, go ahead. I have owned 5 dogs one that I had to recondition at 16 weeks and German Shepherd so I do have experience. But go ahead write whatever makes you feel like you know everything. AT least I can admit I feel helpless in the situations I've posted about because of my issue with the breeder and if you haven't read that thread maybe you should before you post messages.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i hope you will share your behaviorist's recommendations with the rest of us. another member with a leash reactive dog has done that and i think it has added a good perspective for others who might otherwise have jumped to the conclusion that the dog was fear aggressive.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

With an intelligent dog; If it works keep it up. In other words if I bite you and you desist from doing what I don't like, then I will bite you again to get the same reaction. It is unusual for a dog to aggressively bite a person or dog they have bonded with. They might nip to show displeasure but not BITE. This puppy is either traumatized by its past treatment, not bonded to the bitten or mentally ill. I would consult an expert if you can and be prepared to give the dog up to another home or worse.
Eric.


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## joey1967 (Aug 26, 2015)

My poor pup is very sick and I had to cancel the session with the behaviourist its rescheduled for tonight but she is still sick and am not sure if I can get there tonight. I may have to postpone it until next week, I'll make sure I relay the outcome of the meeting, which I am sure will turn into working with her through a number of things for a few weeks.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

patk said:


> i hope you will share your behaviorist's recommendations with the rest of us. another member with a leash reactive dog has done that and i think it has added a good perspective for others who might otherwise have jumped to the conclusion that the dog was fear aggressive.


patk may be referring to Blue and me. He's actually dog aggressive rather than leash reactive. (No fear aggression involved--as far as I can tell, he isn't afraid of anything.) The behaviorist who worked with us was wonderful and gave us tools to use with Blue. We work with him every day, and eight or nine months later, he's much better but not perfect, by any means. My guess is that no aggressive behavior has a quick fix, and in many cases not a complete "cure."


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Joey I'm so sorry she is sick! Even with just feeding her rice she isn't doing well? I hope she is on the mend very quickly!


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## joey1967 (Aug 26, 2015)

Met with the behaviourist/trainer today a number of measures of have implemented that will have to continue until she is 18mnths mainly stemming from the fact that she is extremely hyperactive and the first 7 weeks I did not have her. It will be a lot of work but a plan has been laid out. Thanks for those who were concerned, when I am tired the trainer will take her from me to give me a break.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

hope all goes well and you will keep us in the loop.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

It will be interesting to hear what the behaviorist evaluation is. I hope he's just being nippy, mouthy as SPOO puppies can be.


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## joey1967 (Aug 26, 2015)

My pup is extremely hyperactive and needs a lot of different things to curb her behaviour so that she doesn't end up aggressive as an adult and this is in part because she lost a lot of socialization from the breeders end so we are now playing "catch up". So it is not normal puppy behaviour it is a hyperactive puppy with a hyperactive temperament which makes me very sad, she is very hyperactive even for poodle standards. The advice I was give from the breeder for several weeks was ridiculous so we fell behind there as well. So far some of the measures the behaviourist implemented are working already. Even the first grooming was done wrong so we will work with a woman who will work with the bhvrist and myself on getting her comfortable being groomed..alot of work not what I was expecting when purchasing her considering I asked for something completely different in her temperament. Buyer beware is my new moto. But because my pup is still willing to try, she is eager to please this makes it workable for now and according to her that is a good sign.


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## joey1967 (Aug 26, 2015)

joey1967 said:


> My pup is extremely hyperactive and needs a lot of different things to curb her behaviour so that she doesn't end up aggressive as an adult and this is in part because she lost a lot of socialization from the breeders end so we are now playing "catch up". So it is not normal puppy behaviour it is a hyperactive puppy with a hyperactive temperament which makes me very sad, she is very hyperactive even for poodle standards. The advice I was give from the breeder for several weeks was ridiculous so we fell behind there as well. So far some of the measures the behaviourist implemented are working already. Even the first grooming was done wrong so we will work with a woman who will work with the bhvrist and myself on getting her comfortable being groomed..alot of work not what I was expecting when purchasing her considering I asked for something completely different in her temperament. Buyer beware is my new moto. But because my pup is still willing to try, she is eager to please this makes it workable for now and according to her that is a good sign.


I should add things like squeaky toys, no more they heighten her excitability, only rope toys etc., nothing to heighten her up or jack her up, always trying to keep her in a calm state.


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