# More about color genetics.....



## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

Okay, i just found this site Color Genes in the Poodle which I think may have answered my question. If we say V is the gene for blue or silver, then(as it states on the website)

a dominant black could either be BBEEVv(carries blue) or BBEEvv(carries silver) or BBEEVV(carries no fading gene).

So the only other color a BBEEVV could produce would be a blue. I don't think it's that simple though.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I am definitely no expert in poodle genetics, but when I was looking for a silver, I remember reading that silver is recessive, so good silver breeders usually prefer to breed silver to silver in order to guarantee silver pups. Silver to anything else and you risk losing, in that first generation, the silver color.

However, if you look at silver pedigrees on the poodle pedigree database, often there are blacks and whites and blues in the background, so it's clear that historically other colors have been used in the line, and then of the resulting litters, whatever silver pups resulted got bred back to silvers in order to keep the color going.

The most important thing is that you never want to cross color groups. In other words, you can stay within the silver, white, black groupings with black noses, or you can keep within the red, cream, apricot, or brown groups with brown points, but you never want to mix black-pointed colors with the browns.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

*whoosh*

^ thats the topic flying over my head. This gets so confusing to me.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I know just enough to know I would never want to be a breeder!!

Actually after I wrote the above I realized I was wrong. Apricots with black noses should never be bred to browns, who have liver-colored points, so I was wrong about the color mixes above. Although I think I'm right that apricots and reds should not be crossed with silvers, though.

As I said, definitely no expert here...


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KalaMama said:


> Okay, so those of you who are able to predict colors, can I pick your brains?
> 
> I know the basics that have been discussed before BBEE(dominant black does not carry cream or brown), BbEE(carries brown), BBEe(carries cream), etc. But how do the dilutes work?
> 
> ...



Kalamama you question is very difficult and I am just going to tell you now there is no answer to you question yet.

I have emailed vet gen last month picking their brains and trying to get some answers. The answers I received where shocking and did make sense !

First Thing is Vetgen told me ( i have the emails if anyone wants to see them) That the D gene in poodles has not been located , they said that the D gene is different in poodles that with Labs and other breeds. I asked them what did this mean. Well basically This is why when breeder test their dogs they all come out DD. I asked them what did a brown dog and blue dogs look like under the scope and they just said since its not found DD for all the poodles they have tested. ( this is vet gen) 

After I received that answer I contacted several other laboratories and they ALL gave me the same answer and some even referred me back to vetgen lol

I still lmao at breeders who believe the D gene is the fading gene because its not the same and vetgen also told me the fading gene is not the D gene. Vetgen said its The G gene aka graying gene. They have not located the G gene either so there is NO test for the fading gene which I have been trying to tell people :fish: They said Kerry blue terriers would be gg since they fade out to that blue color. That being said I found this really interesting because I Google pink nosed poodles and a breeder posted about the different genes and colors. As I kept reading I found more Evidence ( its not like I did not believe the scientist in the labs) of the D gene not being found in poodles. Basically the breeder color tested her faded brown and the results came back DD ( well duh because D is not the fading gene lol ) 

But Anyways Scientist have not located the Gene and the D gene in poodles is more complex than with some other breeds.

So breeders just have to work out pedigrees and do their own experiments in their breeding program.

forgot to add that that this was answering for the blue gene. As for the silver gene I can just imagine that its probably a combo of alleles they have not found yet too and the G gene is attached to it for sure since all silvers fade out.


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

Very interesting topic, that I intend to learn more about


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

Roxy is right...the fading genes have not been identified yet.
BUT, we can see patterns that suggest modes of inheritance, and theories have been put forth.
The graying gene G is thought to be dominant and produces blue in black dogs. These dogs are NOT silver, no matter how light they become.
The silvering gene is thought to be recessive...let's use V to represent the gene. A dog with VV does not have any fading gene...thus a black, brown or apricot dog. A dog with Vv has one recessive fading gene and the gene only works partially on the hair, thus you get a blue, silver beige or cream. A vv has a double whammy of fading genes, thus you get your silver or silver-beige or white. This is taken from an article by John Armstrong Color Genes in the Poodle

According to Little and Butler there are a few genes which 'lighten'.
c^ch..Chinchilla(affects brown and red but not black)
d....dilution affects all pigment, sometimes including nose (this is the 'v' we referred to above)
?d^2..affects all pigment ..
G...progressive greying
?p (Schmutz theory)...similar to d

This is basic colour genetics..of course you can get the surprises that you can't predict..that's what makes genetics so fascinating!


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> Roxy is right...the fading genes have not been identified yet.
> BUT, we can see patterns that suggest modes of inheritance, and theories have been put forth.
> The graying gene G is thought to be dominant and produces blue in black dogs. These dogs are NOT silver, no matter how light they become.
> The silvering gene is thought to be recessive...let's use V to represent the gene. A dog with VV does not have any fading gene...thus a black, brown or apricot dog. A dog with Vv has one recessive fading gene and the gene only works partially on the hair, thus you get a blue, silver beige or cream. A vv has a double whammy of fading genes, thus you get your silver or silver-beige or white. This is taken from an article by John Armstrong Color Genes in the Poodle
> ...


Just going by this.. I think it would have to be far more complicated.

See here:

If a brown dog, having no cream, or fading (bbEEVV)
was crossed with a
white dog carrying no brown (BBeevv)

bbEEVV x BBeevv

you could only get 

BbEeVv as the darkest dog which would be a Blue carrying Brown and Cream.

But there are cases of a brown x white producing black.

So this only disproves the VV, Vv, vv thing.
The "V" may only represent the fading gene for silvers and blues/silver beiges and cafes.

There is probably another whole Gene for the Red→Apricot→Cream→White
and the V gene probably affects it in terms of it being Red/Apricot or Cream/White...
like "D" gene or something, the D gene could affect "grizzling" in browns/blacks .. or make silvers platinum.

One day we may have answers !


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## Lelune (Oct 10, 2008)

Just remember these are theoretic and work very well on paper, but as we know in reality it doesn't work that well..

I know someone with dominate Blacks, only produced black, then in one mating produced a white... Now both these lines where hard on black breeding, but 6-7gen back on both the Dam and Sire there was a white...


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Lelune said:


> Just remember these are theoretic and work very well on paper, but as we know in reality it doesn't work that well..
> 
> I know someone with dominate Blacks, only produced black, then in one mating produced a white... Now both these lines where hard on black breeding, but 6-7gen back on both the Dam and Sire there was a white...


They've isolated the genes BB and EE in poodles, so you can somewhat, determine what could possibly come from your mating.

I took this from here: VetGen Colour Test - Poodles in Scandinavia

If your dog is black the possible genotypes are: BBEE, BBEe, BbEE, BbEe.
If your dog is brown, the possible genotypes are: bbEE, bbEe.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a black nose Possible genotypes are: BBee, Bbee.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a Brown nose Your dog is genotypes bbee.

You would just need those blacks to be BBEe or BbBe to produce a white, as the ee's have to be ee to be in the cream spectrum.
But, if both parents are those, it doesn't guarantee a white.

Proportionately, between BBEe x BBEe you would expect 3/4 black, 1/4 white...
But you could well get all blacks, all whites, or anything.
The 3/4 to 1/4 ratio is only theoretic based on probabilities.

So those dogs must have carried the "e" allele down.

If it was constantly a BBEe being bred to a BBEE then you wouldn't get a white.

So it is probably a mixture between BBEE x BBEe and just not getting any whites from the breeding.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> According to Little and Butler there are a few genes which 'lighten'.
> c^ch..Chinchilla(affects brown and red but not black)


I wonder if this is why Delilah is so light yet her littermates are inky, inky Black.


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## DoeValley Poodles (Jun 12, 2010)

I have bred a light blue dam to a dominant black (DNA color tested) dog and produced a litter of 4 inky blacks (color holding at 2yrs) and 1 light blue.


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