# Junior Showmanship in AKC



## cash (Aug 7, 2009)

Can someone tell me how good of a dog you need to have to do well in Junior Showmanship at an AKC show? I know that they are supposed to judge the handler not the conformation of the dog, but is that how it "really" works? We are going to show Cash in AKC obedience but I have been thinking that if we keep him in some sort of coat and can get help show grooming that even though he is not a candidate for the conformation show classes, maybe my girls could at least learn handling with him?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Juniors is about how the handler shows and presents the dog. To that end, you want a breed that sparkles a bit naturally to give a kid an edge (I think a Clumber would be a poor choice). It is also good to have a dog that requires special handling like a Poodle which must be specifically hand stacked and also free baited. I have heard that a Sheltie for example is not the best choice because the expectation is only about free baiting and most judges seem to think a Sheltie free baits naturally anyway.

I would think that a Standard Poodle would be a poor choice for a juniors dog. The junior is supposed to do all the grooming and I think they are pretty strict about that. A Standard will have to be presented in an HCC at least and that is still a lot for a junior to do correctly. Many of the Standards I have seen in Juniors look horrible and they don't do very well.

In Poodles, I think a Toy or Mini would be a better option. They are more sparkly dogs and there is less grooming and maintenance. I would also think about a Terrier (one with easier grooming like a Norwich) or one of the Toy breeds like an Affenpinscher.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think many juniors use sporting breed dogs with next to no grooming. I know many that use pointers because they are a flashy dog with no grooming and are easy to train. I would never in a million years pick a poodle for a juniors dog. The grooming is ridiculous.


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## cash (Aug 7, 2009)

Well what are you supposed to do, just go out and buy a new dog for each class? Sorry, but I say work with what I have. My kids may not even want to show in Jr.'s but who knows, maybe they will. So what is a person supposed to do. I suppose I'll just tell them sorry, you cant show because we aren't going to have 27 different dogs just so you can do this. I don't care for pointers. I suppose we'll stick with 4-H


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## cash (Aug 7, 2009)

I suppose I should have thought about it more, earlier.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cash said:


> Well what are you supposed to do, just go out and buy a new dog for each class? Sorry, but I say work with what I have. My kids may not even want to show in Jr.'s but who knows, maybe they will. So what is a person supposed to do. I suppose I'll just tell them sorry, you cant show because we aren't going to have 27 different dogs just so you can do this. I don't care for pointers. I suppose we'll stick with 4-H


Na work with what you've got then. You can either hire someone to groom them or groom them yourself. In juniors it's about the presentation of the dog so yeah you want your dog to look it's best so if you have a poodle it's going to need to be in show coat so that's not going to be easy but it's all about how the junior handles the dog.

Oh I've heard of juniors being able to just show someone's dog without actually owning it. Like look into a breed that's a good junior's dog and see if you can find a breeder close to you and then talk to them about showing maybe a retired dog or something that they will keep at their house but your child will get to show in his/her class? That's always a possiblity and I know a lot of breeders really like to work with junior handlers.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

cash said:


> Well what are you supposed to do, just go out and buy a new dog for each class? Sorry, but I say work with what I have. My kids may not even want to show in Jr.'s but who knows, maybe they will. So what is a person supposed to do. I suppose I'll just tell them sorry, you cant show because we aren't going to have 27 different dogs just so you can do this. I don't care for pointers. I suppose we'll stick with 4-H


Well you asked. 

Certainly your kids can do juniors with a Standard. Heck, you can do Juniors with a Pekineses. I just think Juniors would be easier and possibly more competitive with another breed or variety. 

Your kids could always do Obedience, Rally or Agility. Have you looked into those sports?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I was going to have my cousin do jr but since we have poodles I already knew it wont be happening also lol


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Since Juniors is about presentation I would definately go with what you have.... I know with the juniors that I have trained, it was the love of the breed or the love of the particular dog that motivated them to show and care for the particular dog...Most of the flashier breeds are fully coated types.
The point of being a junior is learning all about coat care and grooming all about nutrition (garbage in garbage out ) and about show handling skills.


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## cash (Aug 7, 2009)

Yes I did ask, and I'm sorry for my sharp reply. What I was trying to ask is, if you have a dog who you are already competing with in another aspect of AKC shows (obedience, agility, ralley, ect..), BUT that dog is not "show quality" as far as considering entering it into the comformation classes to try earning points for a CH on the dog. Would it be wrong to consider using that dog for junior handlers? I understand that Jr's is about the handler doing the prep work and presenting the dog to the best of their ability and I realize that a Standard would be more difficult for a junior to prepare properly on their own. I also realize that a different breed could be easier for a junior, but I was more asking about using a non show quality dog for juniors, regardless of breed.

I do appreciate your replies and again, sorry for snapping.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

well Jak here does junior handling with his Saffy, she's spayed, not the best confirmation, and in a short pet lamb trim and he's won classes...


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Yes of course you can use this dog and FYI it can also be altered. Either Spay or Neutered


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

flyingduster said:


> well Jak here does junior handling with his Saffy, she's spayed, not the best confirmation, and in a short pet lamb trim and he's won classes...


I just looked at the AKC rules and it states that the dog must be presented "as for the breed ring". I would take this to mean that an adult Poodle must be presented in at least an HCC.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I just looked at the AKC rules and it states that the dog must be presented "as for the breed ring". I would take this to mean that an adult Poodle must be presented in at least an HCC.


That's what I thought too. I mean sure spay or neuter but I assumed that if you are showing a dog with a coat like a poodle or Bichon you should show up in what they are showing in AKC. Why not take your kids to UKC? You can show in sporting clip in UKC and many kids participate in conformation.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

but a sporting clip is allowed in the Parade of Champions and brood bitch/stud dog classes too, so perhaps is allowed in the junior classes??

"judges won't judge the quality of the grooming and trimming, but the juniors should make en effort to present the dog properly"

oh, and on the note of borrowing a dog; you can't "The dog must be owned by the child, a member of the child's family or member of his household."


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

flyingduster said:


> but a sporting clip is allowed in the Parade of Champions and brood bitch/stud dog classes too, so perhaps is allowed in the junior classes??


Good point!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

flyingduster said:


> but a sporting clip is allowed in the Parade of Champions and brood bitch/stud dog classes too, so perhaps is allowed in the junior classes??
> 
> oh, and on the note of borrowing a dog; you can't "The dog must be owned by the child, a member of the child's family or member of his household."


Ahhh well, there are ways around that with paperwork I guess. I'm thinking yeah that's probably a good way to get around the grooming or just do HCC and be done with it.


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## cash (Aug 7, 2009)

Thanks everyone. You have all given me a lot to think on. I have never been to a UKC show nor know anything about them. I've only done AKC and the people who taught me how to show never spoke kindly of UKC. I will check into it some more so I can form my own opinion. Like I said, maybe the kids won't want to do Jr's and will stick to obedience and other sports, I just wanted to have an idea of what I am dealing with if they choose to want to try their hand at it.

Thanks!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think for breeds like poodles the judging in UKC isn't as good as it is in AKC but in other breeds it's pretty competitive. If you are doing juniors for fun it shouldn't matter. When I take Mia it will be for fun only. I have always just wanted to show in conformation for fun and that is a good outlet where I don't have to be as competitive in my grooming skills as I would for AKC.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

If child is involved with spoos from very early age and helps with all aspects he/she definitely can do really good job showing a spoo !!! (Cbrand - LOL, I know you will question this - but I have a poodle breeder friend whose child is just fantastic with alllll aspects of handling , not only the spoo, but she shows other breeds too and even did get a win for Best Bred By and BOW !!!!!!!! ( not a spoo) She is 9 years old, I think ...

So it all is individual as everything else.  The bottom line is that child really should LOVE to do it and dog should be of good quality and well trained for showing. Whole package is really judged , I think, no matter the initial "rule" - when super talented child enters the ring with super dog - she/he will win !!!!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

So it all is individual as everything else.  The bottom line is that child really should LOVE to do it and dog should be of good quality and well trained for showing. Whole package is really judged , I think, no matter the initial "rule" - when super talented child enters the ring with super dog - she/he will win !!!![/QUOTE]
Right on wishpoo!!!!!!!
My last junior showed a retired champion of mine. And she did all the grooming. 
She loved that dog ! He was of course neutered. And they do have to be groomed as if for AKC


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

I just noticed this thread. I don't come to this section of the forum but must have clicked on it by mistake and noticed this thread. 

I did juniors and was really really involved with it. It was great. When I aged out I did all the stuff I needed to to get my judges thing but decided I didn't want to judge until I was older. I taught a couple of seminars on junior handling though. It was fun. 

I can't wait till Nicholas is old enough to do Juniors. He'll likely start out with a poodle unless he goes to shows with my mother and uses one of her tibbies. I showed a tibbie, a whippet, a cairn terrier, and Ibizan hound in juniors. I can say it does help to have the nicest dog you can get. I had a westminster winning tibbie, he was the number one dog in the country for a couple of years before he became my juniors dog. He was great  I did much better with him than the tibbies I had before because he was always in huge coat and we did a lot of grooming with him... haha no groom breed indeed 

I would think a nicely groomed poodle might do well if you presented it nicely. There aren't any set in stone rules on coat length so I would think a HCC that was moderate in length would be easy to keep up with and groom for show? Depends on who you are I suppose and what your deffinition of easy is.


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

cash said:


> Yes I did ask, and I'm sorry for my sharp reply. What I was trying to ask is, if you have a dog who you are already competing with in another aspect of AKC shows (obedience, agility, ralley, ect..), BUT that dog is not "show quality" as far as considering entering it into the comformation classes to try earning points for a CH on the dog. Would it be wrong to consider using that dog for junior handlers? I understand that Jr's is about the handler doing the prep work and presenting the dog to the best of their ability and I realize that a Standard would be more difficult for a junior to prepare properly on their own. I also realize that a different breed could be easier for a junior, but I was more asking about using a non show quality dog for juniors, regardless of breed.
> 
> I do appreciate your replies and again, sorry for snapping.


I dont think there would be a problem with a junior handling a poodle, but I would probally have them help with the grooming, if not make it their responsability (sp) I mean, every three days brushing for 2 hours...not alot to ask IMO. Now before I met my husband, his mom's has a junior handlers club, and Maddie was shown. Now I will be the first to tell you she looked like crap, and WAS not groomed by the kid, but if your child understands what to do it shouldnt be an issue, I just dont think that the parent should be doing all the work, its not like you would go around completing their 4-H projects, or school assignments right? I have heard that for younger children, the smaller breeds are good, but in order to compete when they are bigger, they should have a big dog.


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

oh, woops! didnt see the rest of the question. 

alot of juniors use retired champions (at least around here any way) 
but It is judged on the child, so as long as the dog isnt missing an eye or limb or something, i think it would be ok to show a dog that is not 100% show quality. 
at least I think


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