# Does my groomer know what she's doing?



## amber1 (Apr 14, 2009)

Hi,
Let me start by saying I'm a total newbie and this is my first poodle! 

I just took my 4 1/2 month old standard to the groomers (for his 2nd cut) and she suggested a #4 trim all over. While his coat feels and looks like crushed velvet (chocolate brown), he looks scrawny and gangly. His legs especially look scrawny and boney - not very dignified. Is this a normal cut for a puppy? I can understand going short for the summer but I think I would have preferred longer fur on his legs and face. His face/head looks scrawny to. Maybe I'm just not used to it but he just doesn't look like any poodle pictures I've seen. I asked the groomer about leaving his face longer and she said it would look funny.

I saw the post about Vega's lamb trim and it looks beautiful. My puppy's fur is not as fluffy - maybe because I like to let him air dry - his fur looks crimped when it gets long.

Anyway, so does it sound like my groomer knows what she's doing or should I find someone else?

Thanks for your insight!


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Amber- welcome to the forum and congrats on your new baby!

I had the exact same issue as you a few weeks ago... I was mortified by what they did to my Snoops! I think my thread is still floating around in the "grooming" section if you want to read it, many people had some great grooming advice and tips... 

On a positive note, their hair really truly does grow back quickly! I didn't believe it myself but it's true. Snoops is quickly getting back to his "teddy bear" status... Hooray!


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Ps: it's on the top of the 2nd page... "groomers who don't listen to instruction"


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

I'm glad you like Vega's trim I work in a dog grooming salon and I did it myself!

While a 3 and 4 blade is common to use on a poodle especially for shorter, easier to manage cuts I always ask the owner if they are SURE they do not want their pups coat fluffy. 

Fluffy to a groomer is a lot different than fluffy to the dogs owner. When a groomer thinks shaved they think of like lab length coat or like clean face on a poodle type short, however if I were to take a 4 blade to someones standard puppy they might be like "oh my why did you shave him" and to me it would still be considered fluffy...

With that said...

I prefer to leave puppies with some "fluff" although with standards especially it is common to have their fur cut while they go through the strange coat change and move into their adult coat. Once that happens to Vega I plan on shaving him with a 4 or 5 all over which is fairly short for him.

I would say you should suggest (next time) that your groomer use a comb length or "snap on groom" many call it different things. Or tell them you just want a neaten up with scissors not a blade. Or, although groomers do complain about people bringing in photos I think it helps. Although we may not be able to make your pet look like a show dog photograph bringing one in showing kind of what you're looking for does help and I encourage it with my customers.

I'm sorry you are unhappy with your groom, I would love to see pictures! I would also suggest staying with the SAME groomer even though you might be a bit unhappy with this groom.

Groomers usually keep record of what was done to the dog each time so if you go back to the same person they will know what you DONT like and it should improve from there. Also, I believe it is very important for a dog groomer and the pet to have a relationship and a good bond with one another. The more you trust your groomer the happier your dog will end up being during the process.

Oh, and just for reference this is my dog Vega after his first groom. I used a "1 snap" length on him.


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## Mandycasey'smom (Jan 3, 2009)

I personally dislike the same length all over but some pay top dollar for it.
I like the lamb and have casey in it and Mandy growing out from bikini to lamb


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## amber1 (Apr 14, 2009)

Thanks for the advice. I guess I didn't really tell her what I wanted because I had no idea. Hey, at least now I know what I don't want! I just couldn't figure that anyone would think that looked good. But maybe I'll give her another chance.
I should take some pictures... I was just too embarassed to take a picture of him like that! Cuddleparty, I read your thread about Snoops - I can't believe that one place actually cut him! At least this lady is nice and gentle - of course I stay to watch because I am protective of him. Snoops is soooo cute. At least his head was still fluffy. And I know what you mean - if I wasn't there watching I would swear she gave me a different dog! I am sorry he was so traumatized by the grooming - something must have happened while he was there.


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

I don't mind owners watching but if they have glass or a place you can watch without your dog knowing about it maybe try to do that. Especially with puppies they act so much better once they don't see mom or dad and think they are there to save them from the experience.

It's also good for the puppy to learn that it's a safe place and that it doesn't have to be scary. I can completely understand your concerns though because I have seen groomers yell and sometimes in my opinion be too rough with dogs. If I have to be rough with a dog to groom it I send the dog home and tell the owner I cannot groom the dog safely because i'm not going to wrestle with a dog to give them a haircut, it's too stressful for me and the dog i'm grooming so i see no reason for dog groomers to mistreat animals and it angers me when I hear of such a case.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Mandycasey'smom said:


> I personally dislike the same length all over but some pay top dollar for it.
> I like the lamb and have casey in it and Mandy growing out from bikini to lamb


I'm with you, It's actualy pretty rare for me to even do the same length all over, even on breeds like shihtzus and maltese. I usualy do a lamb if the owner wants a shorter poodle style, though I blend the legs really really well in those cases. With things like shihtzus I scissor the legs by hand so they appear about the same length but arent. I find that same length all over on poodles, especialy little ones, results in the "chicken leg" look. They have scrawny chicken legs lol. 

Hope you're baby's hair grows out quickly and you can have the groomer reset the style to something like a lamb that you'll like better.


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## amber1 (Apr 14, 2009)

WonderPup said:


> I'm with you, It's actualy pretty rare for me to even do the same length all over, even on breeds like shihtzus and maltese. I usualy do a lamb if the owner wants a shorter poodle style, though I blend the legs really really well in those cases. With things like shihtzus I scissor the legs by hand so they appear about the same length but arent. I find that same length all over on poodles, especialy little ones, results in the "chicken leg" look. They have scrawny chicken legs lol.


That's why I was wondering if she knew what she was doing. Should I give her a second chance and ask her to do a lamb trim? At least I know she wouldn't mistreat him.


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## amber1 (Apr 14, 2009)

*Pictures*

OK, here are some pictures of my little boy, Pasta - before and after. Tell me honestly, what would you think? 
(Especially notice the bald spot on his hind "knees" in the last picture.)
Thanks again.


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## Mandycasey'smom (Jan 3, 2009)

oh my gosh I love him He looks like he will be a tall boy.
I personally would have been livid and refused to pay Where did you get him done?

Call back tell them how upset you are especially about the bald spot.
I bought clippers and learned to do them myself only because with 2 at 80-120 a dog even though Mandy is only just over 30 lbs she is still a standard and that is what they charge I could never afford 2.

Yes I have made Casey a mess a time or 2 but it was my fault and I didn't pay.
YES it grows back so in 4 weeks you can take him in a get the start of a lamb or just let him get fuzzy and do his face feet and fanny area.
I enjoy doing it myself I got a decent set of clippers for a hundred ( one groom cost)
got some scissors and a blade another time ( 80 bucks) Bought a grooming arm 30 bucks Got some blades buy 2 get one free another time so in a year have spent about 300 on grooming stuff but I would have spent more then that on grooms and just buy as I go along.

I made a grooming table from old stuff around house and my next major purchase will be a dryer for now I just use a shop vac that blows that I bought only for that reason so nobody touches it. It is a small shop vac anyways and basically useless for anything else LOL it does the job and drys them I don't get a perfect straight top knot and ears but they look decent to me.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

amber1 said:


> That's why I was wondering if she knew what she was doing. Should I give her a second chance and ask her to do a lamb trim? At least I know she wouldn't mistreat him.



You know I would give her a second chance, most definitly I would. If you walked in and asked for her to clip your dog short or shortish all over then she did exactly what you asked her to do and did a decent enough job at it.

The thing is you have to be super specific on what you want, some groomers just arent good at reading between the lines of what you say VS what you really mean. I make my clients talk to me and don't let them walk out the door after saying things like "whatever you think looks good' or "puppy cut" or "short" or "you're the pro you tel me what to get". I consider myself blessed with that talent and I thank the dog gods every night for bestowing it on me. I do have clients though that for all my talents I cannot make happy because the simply don't know how to ask me for what they want and my best guess is sometimes off. It's frustrating to say the least when you do what they asked you after having to spend 10 minutes dragging it out of them and they still aren't happy LoL. 

If it's ok with Aiden print out some pictures she's posted of Vega's reccent lamb trim or look it up online if you need larger pics - sometimes it's easier to see the clips on lighter colored dogs. Take them with you to your next grooming appt. and tell your groomer I want a lamb clip like THIS and show the picture. Pictures sometimes annoy groomers but I for one LOVE it when clients bring them in, I keep them when I can and put them in their file for future reff. 

Tell the groomer that Aiden used a #3 blade and you would like either that or a #4 on the body. (a#4 is much more common a blade, I actualy dont personaly know any groomer that even own a #3, myself included) You want the legs blended at the tops, no saddle bags or bulky shoulders, and you want a nice clean look. You understand that this is puppy hair and therefor much more difficult to scissor and will be ok with the more natural unscissored to very lightly scissored looking legs until your dog's coat changes and they can be scuplted more. Since the legs are so short now be sure to mention that you also understand that they will have to grow out a bit for the desired look to be achieved and are willing to wait for that so long as the correct pattern is clipped on the body.


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## mandi (May 13, 2009)

He is so pretty (handsome!)-looks like he will be a lovely shade of silver. May I ask what breeder he is from?


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## amber1 (Apr 14, 2009)

Thanks for the advice Wonderpup.

Hi Mandi, he is actually chocolate brown - might be hard to tell from the pictures. I got him from Bijou Poodles in Brantford, Ontario. I have been very happy with her (the breeder).


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## *heather* (Jul 30, 2009)

amber1 said:


> Thanks for the advice Wonderpup.
> 
> Hi Mandi, he is actually chocolate brown - might be hard to tell from the pictures. I got him from Bijou Poodles in Brantford, Ontario. I have been very happy with her (the breeder).


Hi Amber...
I was looking through grooming threads and came across this post... just curious to know if your Bijou pup held his color... someone thought he was silver? has he stayed dark brown?


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

She didn't hurt or mistreat your dog so I would say stick with the same groomer. Sometimes with switching groomers just because you don't like the clip due to a misunderstanding it can result in the same exact thing happening all over again.

Most grooming shops keep a client record of what they have done to your dog and so when you go back you can say "Oh well I want it longer on his legs then last time" etc... and the groomer can eventually get the feel for what it is you want!

It might take 2 grooms it might take 6 but at least this way you can figure out what makes you both happy!

He's a handsome boy! I do like the look of a poodle shaved all over. It looks sporty to me! That's how I have Vega right now although im growing it out.


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## tannerokeefe (Dec 14, 2008)

*heather* said:


> Hi Amber...
> I was looking through grooming threads and came across this post... just curious to know if your Bijou pup held his color... someone thought he was silver? has he stayed dark brown?


she may have been referring to Aidans silver pup.


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## amber1 (Apr 14, 2009)

Hello,
Yes, he had stayed dark brown - actually he has red highlights from the sun, which looks kindof cool, I think. He's only 7 months now though. He's a big boy, most people are surprised he's only 7 months as he looks like a full grown dog!

I did end up changing groomers since I found another great one in the area and the new one is very nice and definately knows what she's doing.


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## *heather* (Jul 30, 2009)

amber1 said:


> Hello,
> Yes, he had stayed dark brown - actually he has red highlights from the sun, which looks kindof cool, I think. He's only 7 months now though. He's a big boy, most people are surprised he's only 7 months as he looks like a full grown dog!
> 
> I did end up changing groomers since I found another great one in the area and the new one is very nice and definately knows what she's doing.


Awe, that's awesome!! You need to post some updated pics! I love the browns!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

amber1 said:


> OK, here are some pictures of my little boy, Pasta - before and after. Tell me honestly, what would you think?
> (Especially notice the bald spot on his hind "knees" in the last picture.)
> Thanks again.


I'm sorry, but that is horrible! Shame on that groomer! It looks like they just took a #4 and shaved the whole dog. The darn front legs aren't even straight.

On Sabrina and Gracy I like to do what I call a modified Town and Country. I shave the torso up to the withers with a #4. Then I scissor in the neck, topknot, and legs, leaving them fuller but with a nice transition from the body (a traditional T&C leave the legs/shoulders/hips very full so the dog looks like it is wearing football pads.... I like this on a Mini, but not on a Standard).

I have Izze in a Miami or what some call a bikini where she is shaved totally but she has full "bracelets" at the ankles, full top knot and tail. 

Another thing that bugs me about a lot of groomers is that I think they shave too far up the tail. If the tail is left full, I think you should shave no more than 2 finger widths. Otherwise your poodle ends up with a Dr. Sues tail.


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## cybercat (Nov 15, 2008)

Amber love the pup. I would not worry to much about your groomer. Sounds like you can talk to her. What I would do if I were you thou get Kalstones Poodle grooming book. It lists all the cuts so you can talk to your groomer with more understanding. There are over 20 differnt cut for main body with another 20 variations on those.

Being a groomer myself if your groomer is a good poodle groomer she will LOVE you if you ask her to do something other than a one blade all over. Lamb or town and county will serve your need right now. Both have scissored legs and do not take alot of time to do for a good finsher groomer. Now if she does not know scissoring real well then you might have to look for another groomer. 

Not all groomer are good scissors. Many groomers are shavers only. To find those of us that know poodles and love working on them here some place to check. Contact you local AKC kennel club or look up on there web site if you might have a Poodle specialty club. Someone with poodle or bichon will probably know a decent groomer in the area. Word gets out about us poodle groomers fast believe me on this.

Good luck and if you need any help with the info just PM me.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

note that this is an old thread and sorta irrelevant now...


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

flyingduster said:


> note that this is an old thread and sorta irrelevant now...



Oops! But not necessarily irrelevant. Perhaps someone new will look at this thread and learn.

I think when people are paying for a service that they deserve a quality job. Not all groomers are equal. Owners need to be advocates for their dogs and this means being educated about grooming styles.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Cruise the Internet and find a look you like. If the groomer can't reproduce that look for you, they should be able to articulate why. Is your dog's coat too soft? Did you let your dog get matted? 

I also think that a good groomer, like a good hair stylist should be able to tell you what cut will look best on your Poodle. My friend, KB, took Gracy to a groomer who put her into a Miami. Not a good look for a bitch who I'd fault on being too narrow. Gracy needs a little more hair left on to give her a balanced look. My, Izze on the other hand looks fabulous in a Miami. 

In the end, vote with your dollars. If you are not getting good service, go somewhere else.


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## OffTheLeash (May 15, 2013)

Ok, so I know this is an old thread, but since I'm sure more than one person will have questions like this, I figured I'd put my 2 cents in lol
I agree with everyone saying to give the groomer another try. If you liked how she treated your dog, then it's worth it. We aren't all mind readers, and it can be really difficult to understand what someone wants when they don't even know themselves. I always tell new clients " If there is anything you don't like, Don't hesitate to tell me. It sometimes takes a few tries to find out what works for you. I won't be offended" Most of the time it works out, and if they do want something changed, it's small things like..take the ears a bit shorter, or trim the tail a bit more. LOL I usually err on the side of caution and leave it too long rather than go too short because it's easier to cut it off than grow it out. 

I think what you are looking for is something like this. This is a regular client of mine that does a lot of outdoor activities with their poodle. They like easy maintenence, but still want him to look like a poodle. I usually do a 5 on the body (which is shorter than a 4) and a 0 (zero) snap on comb on his legs. with clean face and feet, a pom on the tail, and a scissored top Knot. I hope this helps someone, even if it isn't the original poster 

OTL


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have always told groomers, that the only thing that will upset me is if my dog is hurt, or not treated nice. I want my dog to like them ! I have never had a bad groomer. I do my spoos myself because of $$$, but I would not care if they got a bad groom, as long as they left happy and not fearful to return.


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## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

I have to say I'm all for giving second chances but that was just poorly done even for a shave down. I wouldn't have gone back either. Luckily he's super cute and hair grows 


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## ChantersMom (Aug 20, 2012)

Amber, to me he doesn't look too bad but it's not the poodle look..This is similar to what my dog currently looks like with he has the appearance of being a retriever-like and less on the poodly-look. Maybe the groomer hasn't done a lot of Poodles??? I have my poodle looking like this for 2 reasong...he gets so hot in warm weather and I clipped him myself and didn't know what I was doing.

The bald spot on the knee is bad though. I would be pretty unhappy about that. Did the groomer offer an explanation for that?


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I know this is an thread But it brings up good points. As an owner KNOW what you like & don't like, take in pictures, never use terms loosely like "puppy cut" or "lamb". It really does mean different things to different people. I personally HATE 1 length a/o & will leave legs 1 to 2 blade lengths longer than body. I have a whole litter of pups (5) that come to me to get a "Louisa" trim. Go figure, this trim has taken off with my clients & over 1/2 my Poodle clients get the "Louisa" trim. Find 2 pictures of my Louisa in her Asian inspired trim.

I don't believe that is a bald spot on the outside. Looks like the Poodle is in a "lazy" sit , where the hind legs open up. That is the inside of the leg & pup not likely to have much hair on the inside of the leg. Even my own don't have much in that area & I shave that area as well as part of the sani trim.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Being a groomer myself, I believe this may have been a case of, lack of communication between owner and groomer. I am surprised though, that she took his top knot and tail down to the same length as the body. Unless you said you "don't like him looking like a poodle" I don't know why a groomer would take away signature styles that make a poodle a poodle. When a client comes to me and doesn't know what they want, I usually ask them a series of questions to get an idea what kind of lifestyle this dog lives in. If the family likes to take their dog to the beach, hiking, to the park. Or do they live on acreage and have lots of bushes and trees with sap or a pond with ducks. Does this dog roll around in horse manure or run free with the horses? Does this dog have kids who like to play in the yard with a hose. Or is the dog owned by an elderly couple who safe home all the time and live a quite simple life with few brisk leashed walks and a little fences yard. Does the family have time to commit to brushing? Or even between groom bathes? These clues give me an idea what to suggest. I even have a portfolio of pictures I can sometimes go to and show clients different hairstyles from previous clients, and personalize the clips for the current client. I also will make people show me with their fingers exactly what length they are hoping for. 
I always trim a dog to be in proportion unless the owner requests something really stupid, but even then I tend to talk them out of things unless its the only thing practical for their situation.
I also always make sure to ask the client how they feel about the dogs haircut when they pick them up and urge them to let me know if there is anything they want me to fix right there, or if there is anything they would like me to so different at their next appointment, and if so, I note it in their file, that way ill remember. I feel it's very important to build a trusting client- groomer relationship for the sake of the dog and your career.
It angers me to hear that so many groomers don't bother to take the time to build that. There is no excuse, I'm a very busy groomer who books out for the year. I take 8-12 dogs a day and I still always have time for each client. 

I definitely would talk to this groomer. It may not mean she doesn't know what she is doing, it just might be, you didn't know what you wanted so she came up with a quick and easy to maintain haircut and thinks you guys can just go from there. It's important to talk to her now, that way when your next appointment comes it gives you each time to figure out what you would like to change.
Good luck. If the groomer is willing to work with you, you may end up with a great groomer who will take great care of you and your boy 


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## Carrie-e (Oct 23, 2012)

He doesn't look bad love,it's just he probably had all that lovely puppy fur and now it's been chopped off. To be honest some groomers just prefer to cut poodles short so they don't have to take more time to put them in lamb trim. You need to find a groomer who not only loves poodles but takes a pride in how they groom them. As everyone had said you will be surprised how quickly it grows back. Do you know any one with poodles near you who could recommend a groomer. It's always hard with your first poodle,but you obviously have an idea in your mind how you want him to look and I'm sure you will find someone who shares your vision. I personally wouldn't take him back to that groomer though.


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

I wonder if her dog was matted at all? She didn't say (as far as I read). I have had some pretty matted poodles being brought in... one lady wanted a lamb trim. I did the lamb trim but it all had to be pretty short because of the mats. I won't give a dog brush burn or risk any other skin injuries just to please the owner. Rather do a "start over" short cut and educate the owner about brushing/ combing their dogs so that next time they can get the cut that they wanted.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Jamie Hein said:


> I wonder if her dog was matted at all? She didn't say (as far as I read). I have had some pretty matted poodles being brought in... one lady wanted a lamb trim. I did the lamb trim but it all had to be pretty short because of the mats. I won't give a dog brush burn or risk any other skin injuries just to please the owner. Rather do a "start over" short cut and educate the owner about brushing/ combing their dogs so that next time they can get the cut that they wanted.


You make a good point, but even I thats the case, but that again proves my point of lack of communication. The groomer should have stated that the dog was matted at check in. If for some reason the matts were overlooked at check in and found during the grooming process, then the groomer should have contacted the owner right away. 
This is another reason it's important for her to go talk to the groomer immediately 


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

hunny518 said:


> You make a good point, but even I thats the case, but that again proves my point of lack of communication. The groomer should have stated that the dog was matted at check in. If for some reason the matts were overlooked at check in and found during the grooming process, then the groomer should have contacted the owner right away.
> This is another reason it's important for her to go talk to the groomer immediately
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Very true. I always check over the dog and let them know what I can or can't do. Some salons have hair length charts... I utillise those daily because my "shaved short" is very different than what some customers think is short  Communication is key!


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