# Raven and obedience trials



## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

I entered a trial and took both spoos yesterday. Wren fiinished his Beginner Novice title with a 3rd and4th place finish. Raven NQ’d in Novice both times for the 7th time of 8 attempts. I just do not know what to do with her from here. She actually showed some good things, her off leash heeling was the best it’s been at a trial. The first NQ was because she backed away from the judge during stand for exam. We had worked on this so long and I had not been seeing that behavior in ages. Then the second try, she was great all the way to the sit and go get leash and she would not sit and followed the judge. She has never done that before! While in her travel crate, she chewed a quarter size place on her hip. I don’t know if it was stress or allergies, I assume likely both. Soooo, so I keep trying with her, since she does show progress or let her retire? She is 7 and loves training but hates trialing. I dislike the thought of all the work we’ve put into this and never getting the Novice Title, she trains beautifully in Open, but I also don’t want to make her miserable. I am so torn. I know I can just concentrate on Wren, but I feel like I’m giving up on her. Is that silly?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I will ask my trainer what she thinks and get back to you.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Just thought of something else before I talk to Deb. Do you have matches near you and do you go? If yes how does she do at a match if you treat it like a trial?


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

I used to take her pre-COVID, and she didn’t really like those either. The clubs have stopped having them around here so not sure when that will be available again. I am working hard on my ring nerves because I know I was feeding her ill-ease. I think I did better at treating it like training yesterday, which may be why her healing was so much better. 


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

The other issue yesterday( and actually the last few times we’ve shown) is that they got behind and we didn’t every the ring until 5:30 pm. When the premium says “afternoon “ I’m always scared I will be late and end up sitting around WAY too long!


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

They did Beginner Novice before Novice so Wren showed first which helped my nerves with Raven, but made her wait so very long.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Raven's Mom said:


> Soooo, so I keep trying with her, since she does show progress or let her retire? She is 7 and loves training but hates trialing. I dislike the thought of all the work we’ve put into this and never getting the Novice Title, she trains beautifully in Open, but I also don’t want to make her miserable. I am so torn. I know I can just concentrate on Wren, but I feel like I’m giving up on her. Is that silly?


Maybe try virtual titling? AKC, ASCA, and CDSP have virtual obedience and rally options, WCRL has virtual rally options, while NCO obedience is completely virtual, as is CRO rally. Ilka loved training and hated trialing, so virtual titles were a win-win for us.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I remember many times of seeing judging programs where I saw our class listed as "to follow" and feeling like my heart had fallen into a pit of stomach acid. As to having two dogs to show, I understand those conflicted feelings too. I decided to focus on trying to get through the RACh with Lily while I spiff up Javelin's work. There are always choices of how to proceed.


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## 3ps (Jul 11, 2021)

Raven's Mom said:


> I entered a trial and took both spoos yesterday. Wren fiinished his Beginner Novice title with a 3rd and4th place finish. Raven NQ’d in Novice both times for the 7th time of 8 attempts. I just do not know what to do with her from here. She actually showed some good things, her off leash heeling was the best it’s been at a trial. The first NQ was because she backed away from the judge during stand for exam. We had worked on this so long and I had not been seeing that behavior in ages. Then the second try, she was great all the way to the sit and go get leash and she would not sit and followed the judge. She has never done that before! While in her travel crate, she chewed a quarter size place on her hip. I don’t know if it was stress or allergies, I assume likely both. Soooo, so I keep trying with her, since she does show progress or let her retire? She is 7 and loves training but hates trialing. I dislike the thought of all the work we’ve put into this and never getting the Novice Title, she trains beautifully in Open, but I also don’t want to make her miserable. I am so torn. I know I can just concentrate on Wren, but I feel like I’m giving up on her. Is that silly?


I hope you don't mind me butting in with some advice, lol but I will anyway. I have trained 3 champions of my own and over 25 other of clients to obedience trial champions .First it would be a difficult decision either way but if you chose to continue here are a few things to try.
First I want you to watch the best trainers that you can. You will see a noticeable difference not during each exercise BUT BETWWEN each exercise. This time between each set-up is the best time to do a full stress relief for both you and the dog. Sometimes it is subtle and sometimes overt but it is critical for many dogs and helps the owners as well. 

Second for the exam change you're training completely. What I mean by that is if you use the word stand or hand signal or both don't use them at all. Use the word stack or up or whatever and also add a quick spin into the exercise set up during training. You're dog needs to see this as a completely new exercise. Also when having you're friends etc to do the exam have them reinforce the word [stack] as they do it. You're dog will not have time to know wheather the actual judge said it or not but she will be waiting for it which will help her hold. Also when training it do it at high speed to make it super fun. so it should look like a big pat on the chest a quick jaunt to the stand area right into a quick circle and then walk away only do a few at normal speed but still have you're pretend judges reinforce. with whatever word you choose.
Whatever you do as long as it is fun for you and you're dog who cares if you make it, the journey is much more important for you both!! Thanks for letting me but in and good luck to you.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Hey there,
I am sorry it took so long to be able to reply but my trainer's OTCh Pom (now retired) was very sick with a respiratory infection and she was very worried and running around all over to try to figure out what was going on (turned out to be mycoplasma on a culture). Things are pretty well back to normal this week so I had some time to talk to her about your situation. Her first suggestion was to do matches and treat them exactly like trials or if that is not possible to get a training partner who can be a judge for you. She also suggested watching other trainers as mentioned by 3ps above. I would try to watch Petra Ford, Betsy Scapicchio and Linda Brennan. I know all of them and they are very excellent and highly successful obedience exhibitors. You should be able to find videos through YouTube for each of them.

Also as mentioned above by 3ps Deb said you should really work on getting some destressing releasers and a clear routine for exercise to exercise ring movement to keep connected to Raven between exercises. This is actually something I work on a lot with Javelin. He always works up (not a down stresser like Raven or Lily). However stress is stress and it will disconnect dog and handler, therefore is never good. For Raven you can use things like a cued hand touch or spins and twists as you move from exercise to exercise. If you can put having her yawn or sneeze on cue those will physically take some stress out of her. Basically you can use any trick you want as long as it is quick and doesn't need any props. Think about tricks where you can give a cue and the behavior keeps her engaged with you. For Javelin I use my flat outstretched left hand as a way to keep him looking at me. I hold it roughly where I expect him to look when heeling so it keeps him with me. I am also training a good controlled 1/4 turn up release for use after a judge says exercise finished. We thought it might work for you too. Here is how it goes. Judge says exercise finished and right after that I tell Javvy that he can give a hug (jump up) as I back 1/4 turn away by moving my left foot back and turning to face him as he jumps up. I can make good eye contact with him and give him a little scratch under his ear flaps. Once I am set up with my feet ready for him to be going back to heel I say okay and get close (which is his set up order. He likes the connection and it keeps him very close and looking right at me. I can use a hand touch or spin with Lily but if I use those with Javelin it sends him to the moon.

I hope that helps.


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

I appreciate everyone’s suggestions. I take them as encouraging me try keep working with her in Novice and not let her quit? I have watched Pets Ford…she’s is amazing! 

I will try some of the suggestions and see if I can diffuse some of her stress. I do not have access to matches currently. I will try taking her to stores etc like I did when first teaching the sit for exam and try the stand. I am forced to stay very close to home right now because of caring for my mom so I will get her in where I can. 

I have been working on the attention/connection because that’s always been a disaster the minute we enter the ring. She does beautiful heads-up at class, but has never been able to filter out the sensory environment in the trials. Maybe if she found it more fun… I obviously haven’t been good at that for her. 


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

Those of you who teach classes, do you teach your students to do the things between exercises that were suggested for me? I’m disappointed that my trainer doesn’t tell me these things. She had an OTCH but she makes assumptions I guess, I am just not a natural at this.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

I wonder if Shade Whitesel's Places In Between class would be a good option? Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - FE335: Spaces In Between


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

In various classes or seminars I’ve had ring choreography mentioned in bits and pieces, not as a cohesive concept which frankly it should be. It’s ironic because my AKC club had a short class on how to fill out the trial form so newbies would be comfortable. Frankly filling out the form is the easiest step.

One teacher asked us to write down in detail everything we do from the time we park the car…. Then she didn’t do anything with it. However writing made me think about forming a pattern. Another, in a special small dog class showed us some strategy to get our small dog from the crate to the ring safely without our small dog being attacked… it involved scanning the room carefully, watching dogs in the room and choosing the best path to avoid trouble. No one addressed the critical steps in between exercises In the ring. Our club has monthly matches and I’ve never seen anyone discuss ring choreography, they only discuss the exercises. I agree with you, they should. 

The one thing you can do in obedience is touch and talk to your dog in between exercises. I make a point to change my energy to being happy and peppy, I bend down to give Babykins some scratchies with praise while getting good eye contact as we walk to the next spot to set up.

It’s a shame you don’t have matches to help practice all aspects of competition in a “trial-like” setting.

You also mentioned ring nerves. I’ve taken seminars by experts and practiced what they recommended. I didn’t find it helpful. I decided to take Nosework just to enter Nosework competitions. I didn’t care how well we did, I was using it for experience of competing where I wouldn’t be nervous. After all of you don’t care, you are more relaxed… it was my way of practicing being more relaxed. Everything about Nosework was so different.Turns out my dog is good and loves Nosework so I’ve gotten a little more nervous about competition, but not the way I was for rally and obedience. I’m hoping with Theo, my puppy that when he’s ready to compete I will retain this more healthy less nervous approach.


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## mashaphan (Sep 4, 2014)

we DO practice 'in between" in my Sunday classes; Feel it is as important as the actual exercise. Otter is easily motivated, and easily distracted, whereas I had to work HARD to motivate Che (whippet), so the in between was extra important.

Ring nerves easily translate, so maybe some fun in between will help you, as well. My first rally trial, a club member had to literally rub my arms to calm me, and when I showed in breed, for a long time,I would throw up every morning


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

Oh, my goodness. If I threw up I would never trail again. I was much better the time Wren showed first because I am not so worried about his performance.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Raven's Mom said:


> I was much better the time Wren showed first because I am not so worried about his performance.


One thing that is helpful is to break down showing into pieces. Normally when we compete we think of the goal as getting that Q. Placement ribbons and points are second. Earning the title is the paramount goal.

Instead focus one 2-3 small goals. Maybe your goals are 1) my dog relaxed in the crate during the competition, 2) nice heads up heeling and 3) your dog jumped over and back for the dumbbell retrieve. That’s it, nothing else, not getting a Q, not doing well in other exercises etc. While you train everything, spend a little more time on these until you have them solid. Now you can go into the ring with confidence your dog will meet your limited goals. And you can be happy even if you NQ because you were successful. Then build on that success by looking at other small areas to improve and make your goal in the ring. I know someone who goal was that her dog be happy at a trial. She NQ, but she had a happy dog to build upon for the next trial.


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