# Dew claws on dogs



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

'Splitting dewclaws', 'snapping', 'sticking up'... these words make me cringe. x_x


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

It would be great if someone could do a study on this. I wonder if some breeds are more prone to problems with their dew claws than others; conformation does vary. One of my friends has a Jack Russell that loses a claw regularly. We can't play fetch with him in the house because he's constantly getting a claw (any claw, not just dew claws) caught in the carpet. On the other hand, my mutts never had problems with their dew claws. I would assume that wolves and pariah type dogs don't have a lot of problems with their dew claws either. Wild canines can't go to the vet when they rip their dew claws open, after all. Natural selection would have selected for no dew claws if it was a problem for them. Is it possible that fragile dew claws are yet another trait, like hip dysplasia and infection prone ears, which we've allowed to creep into modern dog populations?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Flynn came from Dayspring Kennels in Alberta and she does not believe in altering the dog at all. Quincy came from Winnow and they are no allowed to. So, I have two boys who have natural tails and their dew claws. I can handle the tails, but the dew claws scare me. The thing I used to see when I worked in a salon was dews that curled right around and were growing back ingto the foot. Most groomers, unledss they feel it while holding the foot to clip it, do not make a habit of trimmking them because they don't normally see them. It would be very easy for one of them to catch their dew on something and tear everything off. I may one day stop docking but will always remove the dew claws. I think it is very risky leaving them on and do not think there is any advantage to leaving them be.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Personally i have seen to many injured dewclaws to want to leave them on. I prefer them removed when i get the puppy. To me, the risk of tearing a dewclaw is higher then Potentially getting arthritis later (which i personally see no coorilation to). Also, i am not that into agility compitition to warrent the Maybe few seconds it would give me. JMO


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

Tate is dewclaw free. However, TQ (while not a poodle, so she doesn't have hair covering it) has her dewclaws. Actually, she is double dewclawed and has them on both front and back feet. 

The ones in the back are not attached and serve no purpose, but they also don't bother her, so I haven't had them removed. The ones in the front are attached and she honestly uses the extra "finger". I could never see myself removing dewclaws after having TQ - that being said though, some dogs wouldn't use theirs. She grabs things and uses the dewclaw like a thumb, holds bones and toys with her "hands".

Growing up, we had a grey with a dewclaw, and one without. Our grey with his dewclaw uses his as a thumb as well... so I guess my experiences with dewclaws have all been ones where the "excess" was used and hasn't been ripped or torn even with excessive play and roughhousing/exercise.


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## Salukie (Dec 18, 2009)

Wow, very interesting discussion...

Working at a vet's office... I've seen many ripped nails. The most common ones injured are the middle toe on the front foot, and the back dewclaws. (From what I've seen anyway). :dontknow:
I've never seen a front dewclaw injury, but that doesn't mean they don't happen.

Dana still has her front dewclaws. They only bother me when I'm brushing her front legs. I always get them caught in the comb. :doh:


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## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

I did all my puppies at 3 days old but the ones I had done by the vet about 6 years ago, several of those dos have had them regrow in a deformed manner. Well, we dont use that vet anymore anyway.


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

I decided to leave tails and dewclaws on the partis. Had several folks wanting the dogs natural. I have to tell you, it was really nice to not have to do anything to them..yeah!!

BUT...... after a couple of years, I went back to taking off dews. I have seen the dogs use them to hold bones,etc. But the Spoos with them removed are just fine too.

and I like the tails shorter...


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## Mister (Sep 10, 2008)

I dont see how the dew claws helps in agility seeing as how it doesnt really touch the ground.... i personally hate dew claws and like the tails docked too. Im also the person that likes ears cropped on certain dogs too. If a Spoo was a hunting dog it would be dangerous to keep the dews on. I have a friend with a small "designer breed puppy who has front and back dews and that dog gets them caught on things once a week at least. The get caught, he pulls and the bleed! She is now getting them removed when the dog gets neutered....so why not just do it when they are young.
I like a correct looking dog and a dog to breed standard, to me that is a docked tail and cropped ears and dew removed.


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## Birdie (Jun 28, 2009)

Mister said:


> I dont see how the dew claws helps in agility seeing as how it doesnt really touch the ground.... i personally hate dew claws and like the tails docked too. Im also the person that likes ears cropped on certain dogs too. If a Spoo was a hunting dog it would be dangerous to keep the dews on. I have a friend with a small "designer breed puppy who has front and back dews and that dog gets them caught on things once a week at least. The get caught, he pulls and the bleed! She is now getting them removed when the dog gets neutered....so why not just do it when they are young.
> I like a correct looking dog and a dog to breed standard, to me that is a docked tail and cropped ears and dew removed.


I tend to agree with you here. Sometimes I feel like the only one who likes docked tails and cropped ears on certain breeds. 
I never even thought that there would be an issue over dewclaw removal, but this thread has been very informative. I had no idea that people preferred to leave them on for any purpose, nor did I understand the extent that they could be injured. I always thought they were removed simply because they were a bit of a hassle, (could grow out of hand to a dangerous length if not clipped) and served very little purpose for the dog. It always seemed like a "better safe than sorry" situation to me, and still does. It's one thing to want a "natural" dog, but the dewclaws really might as well be removed, in my opinion. Natural tails at least offer an aesthetic appeal to some people, but dewclaws are just kind of in the way.


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## Salukie (Dec 18, 2009)

Does it say anything about dewclaws in the poodle breed standard description?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Salukie said:


> Does it say anything about dewclaws in the poodle breed standard description?


I was thinking about this the other day.


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## Sami (Feb 9, 2010)

We have one toy poodle with a docked tail and he had his dew claws removed. And then 2 all natural toy poodles. Are poodles have sometimes caught their claws on blankets and things but nothing serious. Are chihuahua however gets his caught alot, but its mostly because he likes to bury himself in blankets.


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## puppylove (Aug 9, 2009)

Jackson has one dew claw and I just hate it. When I first discovered it, it was very long, curled and sharp. It is hard to dremel and since I don't see it buried in his fur, I sometimes forget to take care of it. 

I'll let you know in 10 years if he gets arthritis in one joint and not the other!


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

I have four dogs - one with dewclaws (Vinnie) and three without (non-poodles). I do have a photo of Frank doing agility (landing after a jump) and his pastern is down and he would have been using a dewclaw to dig in. I cannot, for the life of me, find that picture. I have also seen photos of dogs running and using dewclaws (turning, landing, etc...). It's crazy to see in a photo as it happens so fast you don't normally notice it on a running dog.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Thanks for the link cbrand.

In my class we just covered bones and my teacher ( dairy farm veterinarian) Told us there are two types of dewclaws. One is just extra skin with a nail no bone is there, the second is actual bone where the dew claw is. 

He is an avocate of removing dewclaws because he has seen too many working dogs rip them off while working.

Like cbrand stated the first article is just someones opinion. There has not been any studies on this. IMHO I don't think the declaw has anything to do with artritis. There are SEVERAL questions one should ask when someone claims keeping dewclaws is better because of artritis...

1. How was this dog bred ? did it come from a sound reputable breeder?
2. What food was this dog fed from puppy to current ? ( nutrition has been link to canine bone diseases ) 
3. What age was this dog started in agility ? 
4. How is this dog at home ? ( is the dog always jumping on or off stuff at home all of the time ?( did the owner let dog jump on and off stuff as a puppy?) 

Here is a good link on arthritis 
Dog Owner's Guide: Arthritis


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I do not care about any article that is not supported by a study - I mean in general 

I would guess that during breed development period of many, many generations, there would be also a variation in DC placement and shape and length to which it can grow :rolffleyes: It might be very well the case that in some breeds it does not present and issue and in some can. Same as with a long tails ! Labradors have long tail - but it is muscular and thick and strong and actually has a function during swimming - so it definitely should not be docked nor it is prone to easy injury. Poodle's tail is much thinner, and the tip is especially frail and "bushy" so it would definitely get easily caught in the brush and marshland. The fact that spoos are now mostly pets puts them in less danger of that LOL - but if somebody wants to use a spoo as a retriever - than docking would be very advisable IMO.

All "alternations" on all breeds initially started to enhance the dog's performance in the field of work it was bread to function, nobody cared about "looks" back then !

That said - I think that cropping and docking and dewclaw removal should be a personal choice and done accordingly to breeders best judgment of what is in the best interest for a particular breed.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I forgot to add that I had a GSD with an actual boney declaw she would use it to jump and hang onto our 7ft fence. She never tore or injuried them, She tore a ligament in her front leg by playing to hard with our neighbors dalmatian. 

She was a very activie dog and was always running jumping etc... I wonder if she would tare one if I put her in herding or sch ?

Enzo has no declaws and it has not inhibited his gait / movement. He can't turn corners fast because of his over angulation but thats another story LOL


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

wishpoo said:


> I do not care about any article that is not supported by a study - I mean in general
> 
> I would guess that during breed development period of many, many generations, there would be also a variation in DC placement and shape and length to which it can grow :rolffleyes: It might be very well the case that in some breeds it does not present and issue and in some can. Same as with a long tails ! Labradors have long tail - but it is muscular and thick and strong and actually has a function during swimming - so it definitely should not be docked nor it is prone to easy injury. Poodle's tail is much thinner, and the tip is especially frail and "bushy" so it would definitely get easily caught in the brush and marshland. The fact that spoos are now mostly pets puts them in less danger of that LOL - but if somebody wants to use a spoo as a retriever - than docking would be very advisable IMO.
> 
> ...



I agree  I think my teacher said the ones he seen tore where of the skin type declaw


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## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

wishpoo said:


> That said - I think that cropping and docking and dewclaw removal should be a personal choice and done accordingly to breeders best judgment of what is in the best interest for a particular breed.


As the vet working on Animal Cops Phoenix said today, when a dog comes in wanting its ears cropped, he'll consider it. I don't have the right to do whatever I please to my kids OR dogs & cats, even as their mother/owner. 

Times change. Much of the world think we Americans are savages for that (and routine infant circumcision, of which I am an activist against- along with cat declawing. The rescue declawed cats I've had are huge biters. They've no defense, or half their feet). 

Dog standards can be changed, a lot easier than breeding a dog with a natural stump or prick ears. 

Aesthetics have nothing to do with it- it's a cruelty issue, pure and simple. My kid's ears stick out- I don't cut 'em. We're Jewish, & don't cut our kids (ask the Canadians if foreskin diseases are plaguing their country since they mostly stopped doing it). 

It's not like removing an person's extra digit at their bidding (back to dewclaws, lol). Personally, never seen a dewclaw injury in 47 years of dog ownership, but if it's not a breed requiring it like the Pyrenees, I'll cut some slack; but if my groomer cut one off (hell, I go around Bella's moles carefully), I'd be concerned they weren't paying much attention, since many dogs still have them! 

I'd say JMO, but it's truth, pure and simple. Functional organ removal for reasons of 'aesthetics' is mutilation. (Whether dew claws are functional seems to be up in the air... )

(I'm not trying to make enemies of the pro-docking folks, but educate about something I'm passionate about, the same way I want to be educated when I need it. I still respect you all!)


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

BlueSpoo said:


> Aesthetics have nothing to do with it- it's a cruelty issue, pure and simple. My kid's ears stick out- I don't cut 'em. We're Jewish, & don't cut our kids (ask the Canadians if foreskin diseases are plaguing their country since they mostly stopped doing it).


The reason why people continue to dock and crop is because it looks better. Hell there are many surgeries people get to look better its the same thing. Have no boobs ? you can fix that Ears stick out you can have them surgically pinned ( my friend is going to do it soon) In the passed it did have a purpose like wishpoo stated

I don't think it’s cruel at all and I think people miss-use the word cruel too often. What is CRUEL is doing an ear crop with no ANESTHESIA. 

If cropping was cruel as you put it then when dogs get neutered and spayed this is cruel. When has a dog come into a vet office and say they wanted to be spayed or neutered ? LMAO

IMO I think cropping and docking if fine if done properly.

I am not trying to curve your opinion just giving you something to think about.


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## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

I think we can all agree spay & neuter are NECESSARY surgeries for the most urgent of purposes, not aesthetics? Straw man.

There is no right way to do a wrong thing. And trust me, as an anti-circumcision advocate for 25 years I've done the thinking part, lol. And heard STRONG criticism from people who benefit from the people who are vested in it, from my fellow Jews- (Muslims cannot draw the least drop of blood from girl children without arrest, but a whole organ- the prepuce- can be removed at whim), to the pharm co's who make big $ from making face cream from them. 

Not worried, I like a good discussion, & no one is likely to change the facts, so my opinion of the facts are unlikely to curve. As I said, I still respect dissenters, I'm just right on _this_.

PS My kid and I like his ears just fine.  He can do what he wants as an adult, but I doubt he'd let peer pressure influence his decisions. My dd had lipo & loved it, but she's over 21 & so I fully supported her. Body mods by consenting adults to themselves, who cares? (shrug).


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

BlueSpoo said:


> I think we can all agree spay & neuter are NECESSARY surgeries for the most urgent of purposes, not aesthetics? Straw man.


Spaying and neutering is only necessary if a diease manifests ,it is also necessary because we have a lot of ignorant people in our world. Basically not everyone will agree that it is necessary.... just depends on who you are talking to, some people want their dog natural (I don't care if they don't neuter or spay as long as they are responsible for their dog its fine IMO). I had a gsd for 10 years unspayed never bred her or she never had puppies.

Some people want to see their dogs balls ..... so it is aesthetic with some non-neutering people. There are too many people in this world and along with that there are many opinons on what is aesthetic and what is not aesthetic. For you cropping and docking is not but for a bunch of people it is. this was my point 

Im not saying pin you ears either I was giving you an example. we live in a very superfical world where sometimes beauty Rules over anything else.

There are too many things we humans do that is cruel compared to a little cropping surgery IMO. I am more for animal welfare and not for animal rights. Most of the people who pay ( what is it $200? to crop) usually take good care of their dogs. Most of the show people I have met who crop and dock take better care of theirs than themselves. Some of their dogs eat better than me lol now is that right ?:fish:


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## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

We can agree to disagree.  I am confident we'll join the Brits, etc soon enough (the sooner the better). (Bless the Pony Doodles, which have shown so many people what a pretty spoo tail looks like!)

Just out of curiosity, if I wanted my spoos ears cropped because I liked the aesthetic (my personal choice, if that's the argument), would that be problematic? I mean, as long as *I* liked a prick-eared poodle, isn't that what would count?

I know many (or most) of exceptional spoo breeders here (the us) take wonderful care of their animals & wouldn't knowingly be 'cruel' (I agree, there's degrees of cruel- letting a poodle mat is the cruelest thing I can think of re: dog aesthetics/health)...

I'm more interested in a all-over paradigm shift, where the meme that mutilated dogs (and children) are more attractive is no longer active (the brits got rid of routine infant circ in a generation).


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I'd like to point out that the agility forum I posted is from England. I used it specifically because we can see the possible downside of NOT removing dew claws. 

The average dog may not have a problem with intact dew claws, however, serious performance dogs may I find it rather ironic given that it is often agility folks in this country who advocate for keeping them on.


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## poodlepuppygurl (Aug 23, 2009)

I was wondering how much it costs for a puppy to get there tails docked and dew claws removed at 3 days old?


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Darcy has a natural tail and his dew claws intact. I would think the two generally go hand in hand. You either dock and remove dews, or leave the tail natural and leave the dews in.

One thing I have noticed with the dews is that they scratch me more often - like earlier today when I gave him a bath and he was clinging to me like I was trying to drown him, I definitely felt them (and have the marks to prove it!) However, regardless, I wanted a natural poodle if at all possible. I like his undocked tail, even if on occasion it does look a little curled! Also I have noticed how much he uses his dews to hold onto bones and other things like his stuffed animals.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

poodlepuppygurl said:


> I was wondering how much it costs for a puppy to get there tails docked and dew claws removed at 3 days old?


I think I paid $50 a puppy last time. I really do need to learn how to do it myself.


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## poodlepuppygurl (Aug 23, 2009)

Well I would do the tails by myself, but it would have to be the way they tie string around there tail and you wait for them to fall off. Do you know how much money that would save?


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## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

I forgot to mention Neuticles (for the male dog owner who wants his neutered dog to still swing a pr, lol). I've thought of getting them for Alf after his surgery. (I wonder if insecure men up them a size, like a boob job, rofl.)

ps Sheep have an excellent reason for docking tails. If I saw dogs in the condition of a maggot-tailed sheep, I'd suggest that too. I'm an educated activist, not a whack job.  The tying off reminded me. My cousin had to bite their nads off in ag school, too!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

poodlepuppygurl said:


> Well I would do the tails by myself, but it would have to be the way they tie string around there tail and you wait for them to fall off. Do you know how much money that would save?


I would never use the tie off method because I think that it opens the puppies up to greater risk of infection. Plus, it is inexact. I would worry that the string would slip and that you would lose tail. Note... the tie off method won't work for dew claws. 

I suppose your savings would depend on the number of puppies you have. Do you have a litter now?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

poodlepuppygurl said:


> I was wondering how much it costs for a puppy to get there tails docked and dew claws removed at 3 days old?


Most breeders do it themselves, but around here it is about $7 for the dock and $3 for each dew, so $13 per pup. Also an office call of about $35 for the first half hour and $5 every five minutes over that. It is not expensive, but liike I said, most breeders do it themselves, so it is free.


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## Salukie (Dec 18, 2009)

Wow, lots to think about... 

I was curious to know what the poodle breed standard said about dewclaws and tails. Here's what I found:


American Kennel Club poodle breed standard:
American Kennel Club - Poodle

(a) Forelegs - Straight and parallel when viewed from the front. When viewed from the side the elbow is directly below the highest point of the shoulder. The pasterns are strong. _Dewclaws may be removed._

Body:
(c) Tail straight, set on high and carried up, _docked of sufficient length to insure a balanced outline_. Major Fault: set low, curled, or carried over the back.


Canadian Kennel Club official breed standard for the poodle:
CKC Breed Standards

Feet
Rather small and oval in shape. Toes well arched and close with webbing. Pads thick and firm. Nails short but not excessively short. The front feet may turn out slightly and the rear feet should turn neither in nor out. _Dewclaws may be removed._

Tail
Set on high, carried up, and _may be docked_. The tail set is distinctly ahead of the pinbone. Never curled nor carried over the back.


The Kennel Club of the United Kingdom:
Poodle (Standard) Breed Standard - The Kennel Club

Feet
Tight, proportionately small, oval in shape, turning neither in nor out, toes arched, pads thick and hard, well cushioned. Pasterns strong.

Tail
Previously customarily docked.
_Docked:_ Set on rather high, carried at slight angle away from the body, never curled or carried over back, thick at root.
_Undocked:_ Thick at root, set on rather high, carried away from the body and as straight as possible.


Australian National Kennel Council: 
Australian National Kennel Council

Feet: Pasterns strong, tight feet proportionately small, oval in shape, turning neither in nor out, toes arched, pads thick and hard, well cushioned.

Tail: _Docked: _Set on rather high, well carried at a slight angle away from the body, never curled or carried over the back, thick at the root.

_Undocked:_ Thick at root, set on rather high, carried away from the body and as straight as possible. 


Official Breed Standard for the Poodle in France:
Chiens - Race : Caniche : Standard officiel, description, aspect, histoire, caractéristiques et conseils. - Eleveurs-Online.com

Tail: Set rather high, at the height of the kidney line. _Must be docked_ at a third to half of it's natural length for the curly variety. However, a naturally long, well carried tail is not a fault. Tail can be kept naturally long for the corded variety. Tail is carried at an oblique angle to the body.

Feet: The poodle must be born without dewclaws on the hind feet.


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## poodlepuppygurl (Aug 23, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I would never use the tie off method because I think that it opens the puppies up to greater risk of infection. Plus, it is inexact. I would worry that the string would slip and that you would lose tail. Note... the tie off method won't work for dew claws.
> 
> I suppose your savings would depend on the number of puppies you have. Do you have a litter now?


Ok because I was just wondering.I read this one thing about it saying that you could do it.But I dont want to put any puppy at any risk.

And, no I do not have a litter now.But in the next week or so I will be breeding my parti girl. So expecting puppies soon.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

poodlepuppygurl said:


> Well I would do the tails by myself, but it would have to be the way they tie string around there tail and you wait for them to fall off. Do you know how much money that would save?


I do it myself. but when I didn't it was $7 per tail, $3 per dew, so $13 per pup. Plus a $35 office call and $5 for every five minutes about that. Very inexpensive, but risky. That is why we do it ourselves. Also a lot of vets botch the tail length because they are not breeders and do not know the proper length. We have seen a whole lot of chicken nuggets on this forum.


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## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

I am glad that my spoos, since I can't grow their tails back, at least don't suffer from CNS (chicken nugget syndrome)!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

poodlepuppygurl said:


> And, no I do not have a litter now.But in the next week or so I will be breeding my parti girl. So expecting puppies soon.


I saw back in August that you were planning on doing this. Did you go ahead and get your bitch and dog fully tested?


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## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

PS Salukie, thanks for all the KC infos.

The law in the UK is a bit more complicated than the KC would suggest:

THE ANIMAL WELFARE ACT 

'Animal Welfare Act 2006 (Scotland) - Docking 
As from 30 April 2007 it will be illegal to dock puppies' tails in Scotland (other than for therapeutic reasons) or to travel across borders to have them docked. Regulations pertaining to this law will be approved by April 2007.

Animal Welfare Act 2006 (England and Wales) - Docking
As from April 2007 it will be illegal to dock puppies' tails (other than for therapeutic reasons or if a breeder can submit evidence to a Veterinary Surgeon that the dog is of a specified type to be used for work, rescue, armed forces, police, pest control).
Regulations pertaining to this law will be approved by April 2007 by England and Wales separately. It will not be permissible for docked dogs to be shown at fee paying shows.

After the dates the regulations on exemptions come into force, members of the public should report to their Local Authority any breeders they know whose litters' tails have been removed without the required certification. 
Anyone flouting the law can be prosecuted and fined £20,000, possible imprisonment and be banned from keeping animals (which could mean that other animals in their care could also be confiscated.
No-one should buy a docked puppy without accompanying certification to prove that the dog has had its tail removed legally and it is intended as a working dog under the categories listed in the regulations. This Veterinary certificate will be proof that the dog has been docked legally and will be important in prosecution cases.'

It's an issue with strong feelings attendant on both sides; I appreciate the thoughtful, non-flamey discussion.


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## Salukie (Dec 18, 2009)

BlueSpoo said:


> PS Salukie, thanks for all the KC infos.
> 
> The law in the UK is a bit more complicated than the KC would suggest:


Ooh... I'm not sure if I understood all that. If someone in the UK imports a poodle from, say, Canada, and this poodle has a docked tail, does this mean that they cannot show this dog at any UK dog shows? Will they get fined simply for having the dog with a docked tail?

I'd be scared!! :scared: LOL!!


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## poodlepuppygurl (Aug 23, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I saw back in August that you were planning on doing this. Did you go ahead and get your bitch and dog fully tested?


Yes Everyone is fully tested we should be breeding them either this weekend or next.Depending on the time she is most fertile. Posh my girl is going to be gone for a few days.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

This whole thing is a big nuisance. I have been contacted by a show breeder in Sweden who would like a female from my next litter. She has asked for a natural tail because she doesn't think you can show with a docked tail, even if it is an import. I do not believe anyone can pick a show puppy at three days old. My gawd...their eyes are not even open yet, so heaven forbid, I choose a pup at three days, it's eyes open and they are light. The kennel club encourages diversity but if they cannot get pups from other countries because their tails are docked, they are going to keep breeding back to the same lines eventually. We are looking into it to be sure, hoping there are exemptions on imported puppies. In any case, it would be a whole lot simpler if it was just illegal to dock-period-all over the world. People here wanting a show puppy want docked tails because that is the norm here, and people there cannot show with a docked tail. It does make life complicated.


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

I find this fascinating. Liberty had her dewclaws clipped, but Cosita still has hers. I've never seen her use them though. I think it would be kind of cool to watch! They are a pain to clip, and she's very jumpy about me touching them. I had no idea there were two sides to this issue. It's given me a lot to think about.


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

I noticed Teddy was using his this afternoon. He was holding onto a ball, so I felt his paw to see if he was using the dew claw and sure enough, it was helping him hold on to it, like a thumb.

Teddy with thumbs...that's a scary thought right there.


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

We paid a friend $5 a puppy for tails and dews. Its 20 a puppy at my vets office. 

I have nothing against cropping, docking and I HATE dewclaws. 

ever run a clipper down a poodles leg and tear a dew? 
or have a dog (it was a dacshund (sp)) rip one out trying to take off a muzzle? 



there was a dog at a vets office when I was younger that was going to have an amputation because he had ripped a dew out and would not leave the wound alone, no matter if he had an e-collar, bitter apple, bandages nothing stopped him and the leg got infected. 

I will respect others opinions, but I will also continue to remove dews and dock tails


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I've already seen too many bad situations with dewclaws as a groomer to appreciate them very much.. I'll go either way with the tails, I'm not picky, but I don't like dewclaws. My boxer mix has them, yes, she uses them to hold bones, but Vegas holds bones fine without dewclaws too.


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## Salukie (Dec 18, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> People here wanting a show puppy want docked tails because that is the norm here, and people there cannot show with a docked tail. It does make life complicated.


The CKC says: "...tail _may_ be docked."

Does that mean someone can show a poodle with an undocked tail in Canada? Will they be penalized because of it?

What about in the USA?


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Salukie said:


> The CKC says: "...tail _may_ be docked."
> 
> Does that mean someone can show a poodle with an undocked tail in Canada? Will they be penalized because of it?
> 
> What about in the USA?


Yep, you can show a poodle with an undocked tail in Canada. They shouldn't be penalized for it, but of course I guess they might be. Darcy's mom finished her Ch with an undocked tail, and if he turns out nicely, hopefully he will too!

I'm not sure about the US.


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## RustySpoo (Sep 20, 2015)

*One Dew Claw??*

I was wondering....my puppy has only one dew claw. Why would the breeder only have one removed? Any thoughts? I'm the second owner and the first owner did not pay extra for AKC papers...would the breeder only have one dew claw removed to prevent the dog from showing?


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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

It's possible that they were both removed but that one was removed incorrectly and grew back. Is there a toe or just a nail? My last Dane had his removed, but a tiny little nail grew back, it was maybe the size of a cat claw, and obviously there was no toe. 


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

RustySpoo said:


> I was wondering....my puppy has only one dew claw. Why would the breeder only have one removed? Any thoughts? I'm the second owner and the first owner did not pay extra for AKC papers...would the breeder only have one dew claw removed to prevent the dog from showing?



I would bet $1000 that it just grew back.


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## RustySpoo (Sep 20, 2015)

Grow back... i guess anything is possible. Its a whole dew claw, nail and all. Regular size. I was thinking, (besides the breeder only removing one concept I had) maybe it was soooooo small or under developed when they removed them that they didn't do that one at all.. maybe they though wasn't going to develop. Its one less nail for me to clip, and I love him all the same.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Sounds like it could possibly have been missed. Which is very possible. Usually when they grow back the nail is deformed and ugly looking. Basically what happens is the entire nerve is not taken and that allows for some form of a dewclaw to grow back. Even a tiny remnant left can cause something to grow back. When we do tails and dewclaws on puppies we keep each dewclaw and each tail until we are done with the litter then count twice and make sure they all match up. And of course we check each puppy multiple times.


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## BeBe67 (May 13, 2015)

I HATE dewclaws!!! Brandie still had hers when I bought her. Her tail is docked too short. I suspect the breeder did a home hack job. 

Luna has her tail docked to the perfect length but she has dew claws on the back feet. Her breeder told me she had had her dew claws removed and I only checked the front feet. Sometime later I found that she has dew claws on her back feet. Which I thought was weird. My vet said she has seen poodles with them on the back feet on occasion. And that it is no big deal we can just have them removed when she is spayed. So that is the plan.

10 yrs ago we had a litter of pups and it was $3.00 per puppy for dew claws removed and tail dock. Not sure what it would be now.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

BeBe67 said:


> 10 yrs ago we had a litter of pups and it was $3.00 per puppy for dew claws removed and tail dock. Not sure what it would be now.


My vet bill to remove dew claws and dock tails on 9 puppies 2 years ago was over $250. I will learn to do them myself.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

RustySpoo said:


> Grow back... i guess anything is possible. Its a whole dew claw, nail and all. Regular size. I was thinking, (besides the breeder only removing one concept I had) maybe it was soooooo small or under developed when they removed them that they didn't do that one at all.. maybe they though wasn't going to develop. Its one less nail for me to clip, and I love him all the same.


I agree with the poster who said they would bet $1,000 the dew claw grew back. It is not at all uncommon.

The pick puppy bitch (10 weeks) from my most recent litter had one dew claw completely grow back. I watched BOTH dew claws be removed at 4 days old! One was back by 3 weeks.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Something as complex anatomically as a dew claw won't grow back. That would be the same as cutting off your thumb and expecting it to grow back. It got missed when the dog was a pup. I can imagine that wouldn't be a hard scenario to have happen if the litter was big.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

For tails and dewclaws we charge $25 for the first pup then $15 for each pup after that. And they must be no older than 4 days. Some larger breeds no older than 3 days. 
Dewclaws can grow back if the entire nerve is not taken when removing. They don't grow back as functioning dewclaws but as weird deformed nails. This is Killa's dewclaw that grew back on her deformed foot. The breeder was worried about going to deep due the deformity of that foot and leg.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)




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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> Something as complex anatomically as a dew claw won't grow back. That would be the same as cutting off your thumb and expecting it to grow back. It got missed when the dog was a pup. I can imagine that wouldn't be a hard scenario to have happen if the litter was big.


Lily, not true. It is not at all uncommon, and in fact, many health guarantees specify they do not cover dew claw regrowth. And - I can tell you - I physically assisted with the removal of BOTH dew claws. Actually, funny, as the dew claws were being removed, the person helping me commented that she likes to wait until day 4-5 because the dew claws are less likely to grow back. It probably is due to the fact that it is easier to remove the _entire_ dew claw if you wait a bit longer. You really have to dig in there to remove everything and, if you don't cut short enough, you risk the dew claw growing back.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Naira's one dew claw grew back. When I first noticed it I was very puzzled as to why she had one dew claw and the breeder did state she removed them. So she has her left front dew claw, and the other 3 are perfectly gone. 

I'm going to get it removed while she is spayed. It grew back and it's upside down and backwards. It's not a pretty looking thing at all. It looked ok when she was younger but now it's really curled and mangled. The groomers don't know what to do with it so I'm definitely getting it removed.

She was the runt by a long shot, so maybe she was just so tiny it was hard to remove it all.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

RustySpoo said:


> I was wondering....my puppy has only one dew claw. Why would the breeder only have one removed? Any thoughts? I'm the second owner and the first owner did not pay extra for AKC papers...would the breeder only have one dew claw removed to prevent the dog from showing?



Either way, I don't think your breeder would purposely do this.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Yes, Teaka has a little spec of a nail, like maybe rodent sized on one dew spot.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Abbey has her dew claws and a natural tail, I LOVE HER TAIL and can't understand why anyone would consider amputating it. I've never had a problem with Abbey's dew claws (touch wood) when grooming or any other way, but I do find it harder to dermal that nail (hair gets in the way). Not sure that's a reason to cut them off though.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Dew claw removal and tail docking are only done for medical reasons in Australia. I can't understand why anyone still docks tails!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

One of my dogs without dew claws keeps licking where the claw was. I feel like it bothers her and I almost wished they had not removed the dew claws. So when I got a chance to get an undocked mini with dew claws, I really liked that idea. I admit it is a little awkward to cut the dew claws and to brush his legs where they are, but it is doable and I don't have to worry about a botched job that irritates the dog or causes a malformed claw to grow back.

I am glad he has the dew claws and entire tail.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Would like to point out, that *despite what the FCI standard says, there are entire sub-populations of purebred Poodles with four dewclaws* in existence. Not everyone agrees with France on the exact details of the breed standard, and for such an international breed with such strong history in multiple countries, not everyone agrees that only France should have full authority on the breed standard simply because of a few historical coincidences.

It's an official secret that judges will not "notice" hind dew claws on a Poodle in many FCI countries. I don't know how wide this extends but I can attest for a fact that four fully formed dewclaws have not hindered Sulo's sire from being champion of Finland, Denmark, Sweden, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania at two years of age.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

This thread has been super informative - I had no idea one could remove dewclaws after the puppy was a newborn.

Jasper had his removed but Piper (likely being a BYB puppy) still has hers. Despite keeping the nails trimmed very short, she manages to get them stuck in something several times a week and licks at them very often. Perhaps I'll speak with the vet abut getting them removed at the time of her spay.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

So if removed and then there is regrowth, what grows back is deformed in other words. That is not a regeneration, but the result of not having gotten all of the nail bed stem cells when the dew claw was removed. If done properly then there would be none of that tissue and nothing would grow back.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Do poodles have 4 dewclaws? 
The only poodle that I have had with them only had them on her front legs.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Caddy said:


> Abbey has her dew claws and a natural tail, I LOVE HER TAIL and can't understand why anyone would consider amputating it. I've never had a problem with Abbey's dew claws (touch wood) when grooming or any other way, but I do find it harder to dermal that nail (hair gets in the way). Not sure that's a reason to cut them off though.


If I'm remembering correctly, all of my dogs had their dew claws, and there were never problems in grooming, or with the dogs chewing or bothering them. As for the tail, personally, I like a docked tail, but not so short that it's just a nubbin.


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## joey1967 (Aug 26, 2015)

*Dew Claws*

My pup Spoo has her dew claws left on , breeders choice because she says that a lot of her customers are people who use them to retrieve ducks and they help with this. I was going to have them removed by my vet during her spay but he said he would not take them off as it causes neurological problems later on and the dog is constantly biting its legs. That was his opinion so my Spoo will have hers for the rest of her life. I'm not sure if this is because she is an older pup and did not have them taken off at the outset but I'm assuming that this is what the problem is. I also did not have a docked tail as per breeder decision.


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

Luce came from my neighbor as a Oops! litter. Natural tail and dew claws.

He tail is not conformation worthy, but it is the cutest tail and I love it! It curls up and over her back and blends in with the rest of her - until she wags it

She has her dew claws and she uses them.

As for cropped ears. I read they started cropping ears on Dobermans to make them look more fierce. I don't know about other breeds like great danes. If it is true that has nothing to do with the dogs physical ability to do its job.


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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

Luce said:


> Luce came from my neighbor as a Oops! litter. Natural tail and dew claws.
> 
> He tail is not conformation worthy, but it is the cutest tail and I love it! It curls up and over her back and blends in with the rest of her - until she wags it
> 
> ...



Danes were historically cropped because they were a hunting breed and it was to prevent the ear leather being torn by boar. The longer crop developed for cosmetic reasons over the years. I cropped both of mine because I prefer the look, but I can say that out of five drop earred dogs that I've had, four have had chronic ear issues while both cropped dogs have never had a single issue with their ears. 


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

kayla_baxter said:


> Danes were historically cropped because they were a hunting breed and it was to prevent the ear leather being torn by boar. The longer crop developed for cosmetic reasons over the years. I cropped both of mine because I prefer the look, but I can say that out of five drop earred dogs that I've had, four have had chronic ear issues while both cropped dogs have never had a single issue with their ears.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Any dog with long floppy ears (like a poodle) can have ear issues. Still not a good reason to crop their ears. Should we crop a cocker spaniel's ears? I don't think he would look as cute.

Times are a-changing, at least in countries outside the US. Removing dew claws, docking tails, and cropping ears are not done as a matter of course in other countries and are often illegal now. I will be glad when the same can be said for the U.S.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> So if removed and then there is regrowth, what grows back is deformed in other words. That is not a regeneration, but the result of not having gotten all of the nail bed stem cells when the dew claw was removed. If done properly then there would be none of that tissue and nothing would grow back.


I dont think anyone used the words regeneration. Correct, if completely removed, it will not grow back. However, it's easy to not completely remove it when you think you are. And my understanding is that it doesn't always necessarily come back deformed, but it's common to.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

My poodles have dew claws removed (and overly short cropped tails, as far as that goes--I wish they were longer!). However, my little female Boston Terrier is such an athletic dog and she has twice broken a dew claw well into the quick. Yikes, it made my stomach flop just to see that little nail sticking out at a right angle to her leg! Anyway, both times she bit the nail off after a while, and it never did grow back really. Just a funny little nub that I don't even have to dremel.


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