# What do you think of these pups?



## Squirrel123 (Jan 12, 2016)

I don't know much about colored standard poodles, I have only owned solid. I also can't figure out how to post a picture! So I am putting a link (I hope). I found these puppies online and they are $1400! Can I get opinions on the coloring of these girl pups which are the first 4? Thank you so much.

Poodles from ACC Ranch


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Although the puppies are cute, and the parents are AKC registered it does not mean they are healthy dogs. There is no indication of any testing being done for various health issues that poodles are suceptible to. All excellent breeders do their due dilligence and test for health issues in their breeding parents. 

Comments about one of the male dogs indicate that she will use that dog to breed for doodles, whoodles, etc......not a responsible breeder, in my estimation. 

Looking at the various pedigrees for many of the breeding dogs there are high coi% and very high Wycliffe numbers. Both of which would scare me away. Do some research on these issues. I would RUN, not walk away, based on this alone.

Also, they have waaaay too many breeding female dogs....an indicator of a back yard breeder - high volume breeder. Also, looking at the body type, shape and proportions on the adult dogs, many of them are quite out of proportion....body length too long in proportion to the height of the dog, and other assorted structural issues.

I hate to break it to you and be so very blunt, but I think with additional research and maybe some pointers from other members here, you can find a much better source for a healthy pup from a more responsible breeder.

Please continue to ask questions and I hope we can steer you in a better direction.

Viking Queen


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Everything VikingQueen says are very valid( and true) points! Please read here our sticky called 'Buying a Puppy Safely' it could help prevent heartbreak in the future!
Please,please,please, do the research before you get your Poodle!!!!


P.S. If we know where you are located there are some very knowledgeable breeders here that can steer you in the right direction for a well bred,fully health tested (more than a 'Vet Check,) dog!


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## Squirrel123 (Jan 12, 2016)

Thank you for replying! I just did some research, albeit quick, on the numbers you mentioned. And then I looked at the parents of that litter. So I am seeing very low coi percentages, though there are two coi numbers, 10 and 15 and I don't know what those are. But aren't lower numbers good here? Or are they too low,making more of a "mutt" poodle than a well bred poodle? 

As for the Wycliffe numbers, phew, what a mess reading about that was! It sounds as if you are cautioning that with these numbers being around 35, that this litter has too much inbreeding? This is going to take years of study I am afraid!! 

I agree with what you saw about the breeding program there. I don't like it myself. Too many dogs, too many breeds, sounds almost like a puppy mill. But I am still interested in getting more information about why this litter may or may not be a good choice.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Well, Viking Queen mentioned quite a few reasons it's not a good choice. It's not a good choice because there are many reputable show breeders who have dogs in the same price range. It's not a good choice because you'd be supporting a backyard breeder. It's not a good choice for every reason I can think of.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

The breeder is charging enough to be able to afford to do genetic testing which would ensure your puppy would not go blind from PRA or be crippled with bad hips. She is not giving you registration papers for these puppies. That indicates a shady breeder who cares mostly for what money she can make.

To make sure your puppy has good body structure, a good breeder will show their dogs or do performance sports to prove their conformation.

I do not believe this is a good breeder.


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## gr8pdls (Jul 13, 2010)

OMG! This is a puppy mill! ACC Ranch Sheepadoodles, Whoodles, Chonzers?, ShiPoos, Mini Labradoodles, the list goes on and on.


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## Squirrel123 (Jan 12, 2016)

Just to clarify, the puppies DO come with registration papers. I think you must have mis-read something. It says "reduced price" puppies will not come with registration papers. 

I'm not trying to start an argument on whether this is a good breeder or not. I do not believe that it is, just for the simple fact that there are too many breeds, too many litters, too many breeding dogs, etc, etc, end. I am asking about the coloring on this litter of puppies. I do appreciate my attention being brought to the information on the pedigrees. I have no intention whatsoever of paying $1400 for one of these puppies. Sometimes people have other reasons for asking certain questions.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

You were not clear in your last post that you only wanted feedback on the colors.

Not providing papers are ANY poodle, no matter if the price is reduced or not, is not good.

To me the colors of the dogs is a personal decision. If the breeder is a good one that does genetic testing and some showing or performance sports, the dogs could be solid or multicolored. It does not matter.


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## Squirrel123 (Jan 12, 2016)

I don't see where I got upset about the pedigree information. In fact I said I appreciated it. Is this forum always so "attacking"? This is my first visit.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Squirrel123, sorry but I did misread your post and thought you said you did not appreciate the info on pedigrees. My mistake. I removed that line from my post but you read that line before I deleted it.

I hope you are getting the information you are looking for.


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## Squirrel123 (Jan 12, 2016)

No problem!

I guess what I really want to know is, she was calling these parti-poodles but I thought those had to be more than 50% white? So are they mismarks? And the brown and white one, looks like it has more colors in the brown parts. What is that about? I know it is hard to understand me, but I can explain all of it later. I know she comes to this site. So I am just trying to get some information without saying too much at the moment.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

What would you like to know about the puppies' colors?


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I think you're correct that some of those puppies are mismarks. The brown/white one looks sable and white to me.


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## Squirrel123 (Jan 12, 2016)

Is it normal to charge as much for mismarks as for true parti colored poodles?


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## Squirrel123 (Jan 12, 2016)

Zooeysmom, your poodle is beautiful. What color do you call that?


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

All the colors should cost the same.

Thank you for the compliment--she is silver


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## Squirrel123 (Jan 12, 2016)

Oh, see I didn't know that! I assumed that certain colors would cost more and some less, so that is good for me to learn. My poodle was black. She had blue tinted skin, and when she was older (like a senior) she got some gray hairs in her tail and certain areas along her back. I just called her black.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Here is a website I found useful that describes poodle colors.

POODLE COAT COLORS: OVERVIEW OF ALL COLORS

I have seen some breeders who will charge more for some poodle colors they consider rare, but it is not what most breeders do.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I know you are trying to lear about color, but you should try to do so with an ethical breeder in mind.

This is a very, very poor and sad example of a breeder. I wouldn't want her puppies if she gave them to me, knowing there is a very high risk of serious health problems costing me 5-10 times the worth of the animal. 

If you look at her dogs, they even look sick (the parents, I mean). Look at their eyes, it's pitiful. Body conformation is also very poor, nowhere near the standard.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Most of the dogs look like partis (doesn't have to be more than 50% white I think), but some are mismarks.

Aside from the basic question you asked about color I would say ditto to everything Viking Queen said. Also please understand that we are passionate about breeding that improves poodles and most here take a somewhat dim view of greeders and BYBs who use the doodle craze to churn out pups that don't further that goal.

Here is a link to the puppy thread that N2Mischief referred to. It has tons of useful information. http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/33522-buying-puppy-safely-basics.html 

I didn't look at pedigrees etc. since Viking Queen already commented astutely about them, but I did look at pictures of the adult dogs. Many of the pictures are taken in a way that doesn't show the real structure of the dog (which makes me wonder) but for those where you can see the dog well stacked mostly they seem poorly conformed with the most obvious issue to me being that they look long in the back/short on leg.

If you are particularly interested in partis, here is a link to a thread that has information about a great breeder of partis. http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/186842-parti-breeder-doin-right.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/33522-buying-puppy-safely-basics.html


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Hi there - first of all, asking here about colors and a particular breeder is an excellent first step. I did the same thing (posting pictures of a litter I was curious about) and the members here helped me on my way to finding a wonderful parti-colored puppy.

Like some others have mentioned, a good breeder will give you more than just AKC papers. ALL purebred puppies should be registered, so withholding papers in exchange for a lower price is a bit shady. There is already limited and full registration papers available as a way to differentiate between pet and show quality puppies, and an ethical breeder will register all of their puppies.

In addition to registration papers, you'll also want proof that the parents have been OFA cleared for hips (and elbows? I can't remember if the OFA is the body that does this?) but you'll want elbows, eyes, and hips checked within the last two years. You should also ask if there is any Addison's disease in the line, as it is not something one can test for but is believed to be at least partially genetic. VonWildenBrand (my spelling is very wrong, I usually abbreviate as VwB), is also important to check for. Once you've got good answers to health questions is when you can look at the actual puppies - I know from experience it is so hard to look past those cute faces.

As far as colors, there are lots of ways to describe a dog with white in addition to anther color. Pink Collar Female and the mostly black males are all abstract marked (less than 50% white). Purple, Lavender, and Black Collar are the only three I would consider to be partis. If they had more solid color in a tuxedo pattern, they'd be considered tuxedo or Irish tuxedo. They also have one puppy labeled as a sable, but judging from that single picture she looks much more like an apricot (due to the lack of dark tips on her fur).

Most good breeders will not price different colors of puppies differently. Some will, and if they pass all the health checks that they should, it's your prerogative if you want to pay more for a "prettier" puppy. Currently Red, Sables, Phantoms, Brindles, and Partis are popular, and you'll find that some breeders charge a premium for these colors. They ethically shouldn't, but they do, as is their right as producers of a consumer good.

You might have already posted elsewhere, but if you care to share your location (or even general area), I'm sure there are members who could point you in the right direction for breeders in your area. I'd recommended Jacknic, Tintlet, and Crystal Creek off the top of my head without know your location - those three are parti-breeders that do extensive health testing in addition to showing/working their poodles.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

It made me sad to look at those dogs and pups, they don't seem to be well kept or happy to me.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

According to UKC a parti color is any dog that has 50% or more white, an abstract is a dog with less then 50% white markings. So yes in UKC mismarks can be and are shown as multicolors. 

I am not sure that some breeders make the distinction between abstract and parti on their web sites though most of the better breeders are doing so now. 

We do have a number of good parti/multicolor breeders on PF so if you have more questions please feel free to ask them

ACC Ranch does have a wide range of colors including sables. One of her sable parti males is actually behind a number of poodles in the area. Sigh at the moment she is not considered a reputable breeder by most local breeders. Her collection of doodle and other mix breeds is rather large at this time.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Hips can be done with PennHip or OFA and if done after the age of 2 years old there is no reason to have them redone. Eyes, heart, thyroid are the ones that should be done yearly. At the very least yearly eye exams should be done.


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## Squirrel123 (Jan 12, 2016)

Thank you everyone for all these answers, I am in appts today so I haven't had time to reply but I am reading them all!


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## Jacknic (Sep 14, 2010)

Squirrel123, 
Here is the link for the Multi Colored Poodle Club of America, we have a color & pattern page, plus you can look through the website and see many photos and list of members, who are expected to follow the code of ethics for breeding.
Poodle Coat Colors - MCPCA


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

Squirrel123

I have read all the above comments. And I agree with most. My first thought was that $1400 is a lot for the quality of dogs she represents. That price is close to what a very good quality spoo sells for.

And I realize that many on here are poodle purests, which is fine and good, however, there are spoos out there that don't come from the top-top breeders that are of very good quality.
I personally see nothing wrong in a parti-colored poodle, as long as their genetic makeup is of good or decent quality. After all, you are not showing the dog, nor breeding it.
In my years of purchasing any dog breed, I have spent over $2000. for excellent dogs, and rescued dogs for $100. A lot of times it is a crap shoot. Some high quality dogs I have had have had problems (and to get some breeders to take back the dogs or refund money (even with a 2 or 5 yr guarantee) is sometimes very hard unless you get a lawyer...then expensive to do). And a 2 yr. guarantee isn't worth much in my opinion. Most problems occur after that time frame.

And top quality breeders, or even those not top quality aren't going to advertise those customers that were dis satisfied.
My currant spoo (my first spoo) I sort of "rescued" from a gal who had an AKC litter, and she was the last and the breeder "wanted her gone." I paid $600. for her. The breeder did show me the geneology of the parents, and grandparents and their AKC records....the grandparents (2) were OFA very good. Not all were OFA tested, so I don't know about them. Was this a crapshoot? Probably, but I am willing to take that chance, and give her the best vet care around....problems and all if the arise.

I would have NEVER paid $1400. for her....oh, and this breeder gave me (in writing) a LIFETIME health guarantee for any genetic problems....unheard of in the dog world...

All I am saying is that maybe these dogs are fine, maybe problems...dunno. I would check their parents, grandparents etc. and see if any have been tested for any problems...the breeder should have an AKC background on them.

Then, I wouldn't pay $1400 for the dogs.
There are many people who want very nice dogs for a reasonable price...and can't afford $2500 and up. Is this breeder a backyard breeder? In it for just the money? Maybe, but that doesn't mean that her dogs are bad...just do some genetic checking before you buy.

I hope this helps....and welcome to this site. It is helpful in many ways, and there are some really nice, sweet people on here. And then there are some that aren't. That is the way it is on many sites....just please stay with us, and let us know how you come out.
Best of luck in your search!


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Dogs123 
Grin some of us do show and breed multicolor/parti color poodles even if it is ONLY in UKC or in performance events in AKC here in the US. And there are groups/breeders in other nations trying to get the the multicolors accepted in their countries.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Dogs123 wrote:

My currant spoo (my first spoo) I sort of "rescued" from a gal who had an AKC litter, and she was the last and the breeder "wanted her gone." I paid $600. for her. 

*That is not a rescue. At all. *

....the grandparents (2) were OFA very good. Not all were OFA tested, so I don't know about them. 

*There is no OFA "very good." Passing grades are excellent, good, or fair. *

Is this breeder a backyard breeder? In it for just the money? Maybe, but that doesn't mean that her dogs are bad...just do some genetic checking before you buy.

*And think about whether or not you want to support a backyard breeder/puppy mill. *

...there are some really nice, sweet people on here. And then there are some that aren't. That is the way it is on many sites....

*I'm a very sweet person, but I'm also real and dogs' wellbeing always comes first in my heart. *


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

Zooeysmom:


Have you checked on the price to rescue a spoo from a rescue? I have ...several times and the usual price is anywhere from $450.00 and up. plus you have no idea if it is a purebred, or genetic problems, or behavioral issues....I paid $150. more for Piper and got to see the mom and dad and review the AKC papers of the grandparents. Also the OFA were (if I remember right said very good ON THE AKC papers....It may have said good, I won't swear by the very good)...but she is well worth the price I paid, she sees my vet regularly and he said her hips at this point feel very good (and he owns spoos)...she is lovely, sweet and healthy, and since I was with her father and mother who were also very, and healthy sweet. And they were about 5 years old.

Why are you so defensive about people buying from other people who may or may not choose to test their dogs when the grandparents and gr. grandparents have been, and then sell at a cheaper price? I understand the fact that dogs should be tested for important genetic traits, but it is my belief that not every frickin' dog in a line of tested dogs means the offspring are bad.....or "backyard" as you say. And how dare you claim that my Piper was not a rescue....because she wasn't taken to a shelter yet? Were you there?

For a "SWEET" person, you certainly come off as a "know it all" and not very open minded....Were you tested for genetic traits before you had children? 

Finally, yes, we all want good, healthy dogs, but there is a point in which not all people can pay $2000 and up for a dog. I have paid that in the past (and may I say, that dog had tumors on her kidneys at 3 years old....after surgery, the cost was abut $2000. and today at 6, she is doing fine)....what did her breeder say after giving a frickin' 2 yr. health guarantee...."I'm sorry", and YES I have rescued (from a shelter, so evidentally she is an "official" rescue) a schnauzer that I have still today and NO clue about her background....the price: $150.00 and she is 8 yrs. old and doing wonderfully.

Why don't you get off your high horse and accept that some people have different opinions than you and stop attacking them for their decision. It is "sweet" people like you who offend newcomers to this site.

Oh, and do I know about genetics? I have BRED and raised World Champion quarter horse for 20 years that have sold yearlings at the World and Congress shows for over $20,000.00. So, I do know about breed lines and testing....and some to the top quarter horses in the country that are on every page of the Quarter Horse magazines carry genetic problems....people still breed to them anyway....and some that are "not so great" have foaled beautiful babies....it is a crap shoot, like it or not.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

In response to Dogs123:

*The price of a rescue Spoo has nothing to do with calling your dog a "rescue." * 

Why are you so defensive about people buying from other people who may or may not choose to test their dogs when the grandparents and gr. grandparents have been, and then sell at a cheaper price? 

*Because I love the breed and that is irresponsible and unethical practice. * 

And how dare you claim that my Piper was not a rescue....because she wasn't taken to a shelter yet? Were you there?

*Hahahahaha, a rescued dog is one that comes from a kill shelter or off the streets. Not off of Craigslist from a backyard breeder that you paid $600 for. *

For a "SWEET" person, you certainly come off as a "know it all" and not very open minded....Were you tested for genetic traits before you had children? 

*Actually, because my mom had the BRCA1 gene mutation, yes, I was actually genetically tested before having children LOL*



Finally, yes, we all want good, healthy dogs, but there is a point in which not all people can pay $2000 and up for a dog. I have paid that in the past (and may I say, that dog had tumors on her kidneys at 3 years old....after surgery, the cost was abut $2000. and today at 6, she is doing fine)....what did her breeder say after giving a frickin' 2 yr. health guarantee...."I'm sorry", and YES I have rescued (from a shelter, so evidentally she is an "official" rescue) a schnauzer that I have still today and NO clue about her background....the price: $150.00 and she is 8 yrs. old and doing wonderfully.

*My only beef is that you keep calling your dog a rescue. It is not a rescue. You bought it. I have no problem with people who pay less for a dog. 
*

Oh, and do I know about genetics? I have BRED and raised World Champion quarter horse for 20 years that have sold yearlings at the World and Congress shows for over $20,000.00. So, I do know about breed lines and testing....and some to the top quarter horses in the country that are on every page of the Quarter Horse magazines carry genetic problems....people still breed to them anyway....and some that are "not so great" have foaled beautiful babies....it is a crap shoot, like it or not.
*
That's great. I used to ride hunters when I was young. One of my favorite horses was a AQHA gelding. Oh, now I'm getting off topic. *


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Zooeysmom, why did I not know about your quarter horses?!...bestill my heart!

I grew up showing, mostly western equitation/pleasure. Just ETI shows mostly. I had to support my habit on my own, my parents wouldn't support me so I didn't have much $$. I won ETI pleasure at the year end convention for 13-17 year olds in 1981 I think it was. 

Back to topic, It really bothers me to call a dog a "rescue" that you paid $600.00 for. When we rescue a dog, we sometimes have to pay a lot of money..in vet bills, spaying/neutering, fostering and training. We do not purchase dogs, for any amount of money. It just simply isn't a rescue if you bought it. I used to think of my Emilio as a rescue but I did give the woman a small amount of money, so I bought him, plain and simple. I supported a backyard breeder. I have learned a lot and I would never do it again.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

N2, I LOVE horses so much. Unfortunately, I'm asthmatic now, so can't be around them--boo hoo! But they were a huge part of my childhood/teenage years. I rode mostly at the local level due to finances.


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

I really don't want to be part of a disagreement, and I do believe in best practices, BUT, I also recognize not everyone can pay $2000 for a dog because I am one of them. Does that mean I should be allowed to have one? 

I think puppy mills are wrong and don't support having puppies for the fun of it, however, it I hadn't been able to find a small breeder that some might call a BYB I wouldn't have my precious spoo!! I had to pay $700 and while some think that's nothing it was almost more then I could manage. I hate to see people demonized for getting and loving a puppy that is not from a "top tier breeder". I think there should be room for all of us poodle lovers.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Raven's Mom, one of the top breeders in this country charges $1,200 for her pups. I really feel that if you can't afford that price, how are you going to pay for vet bills, food, grooming, supplies, training, etc.? The price I paid for Maizie was a drop in the bucket compared to all the other expenses (just like with horse ownership). If people just saved a little longer, they could have a quality pup from a show breeder. Or if that's unmanageable, consider adopting an older dog.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

zooeysmom said:


> Raven's Mom, one of the top breeders in this country charges $1,200 for her pups. I really feel that if you can't afford that price, how are you going to pay for vet bills, food, grooming, supplies, training, etc.? _*The price I paid for Maizie was a drop in the bucket compared to all the other expenses (just like with horse ownership).*_ If people just saved a little longer, they could have a quality pup from a show breeder. Or if that's unmanageable, consider adopting an older dog.


I agree especially with the bolded statement. Ari's training and food alone come out to $100 a month (of course I could cut some corners on the training but I enjoy it). In a year I will have spent as much on training and food alone as it cost me to buy her. And that doesn't even take into account the $800 we spent at the vet just last month...

There are lots of poodles and poodle mixes priced to go at the animal shelter or at breed rescues. And of course lots of non-poodles that would equally love to have a place to call home.

Replace "felines/cats" with poodles:
Pre-Owned Cats

There is no good reason to cut corners when purposely bringing new dogs into this world. If you are not bettering the breed in conformation or health, why breed at all when there are already so many dogs without homes?

ETA: If you have $600 to spend on a dog, would it not make better sense to get a dog from a rescue for, say, $100-500 on the high end and insure it with PetPlan/other health insurance with the remaining savings, rather than getting a dog from a BYB? (Alternatively you could use the extra as a savings account to draw interest for expenses, but interest on $400-$600 isn't much) Depending on the specific insurance policy, you'd have a year's premiums just from the leftover after adopting the dog (and sometimes you get a couple months of "free" insurance with a newly adopted dog from the ASPCA).


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

While I agree in principle to only buying poodles from breeders who do genetic testing and show or do performance sports, I do not think all backyard breeders should not exist. I do not think there would be enough puppies from good breeders for all those people wanting poodle puppies. Responsible small breeders serve a function.

I also think this is a free country, and many people who could afford to pay a lot for a puppy do not believe that a puppy should cost that much and will not pay the price a good breeder would charge.

My last poodle had epilepsy and died before the age of five. It took me years to get over the horror of witnessing his seizures. He also had hypothyroidism. I personally wanted the best possibility of having a healthy dog. So I did go to a good breeder to get Dakota.

But I do not condemn those who find a small breeder who seems responsible and wants to take a chance on them. I do recommend pet insurance for all puppies.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i am for finding a well-bred dog from a good breeder. but i also think we should be kind to one another about how we bring our pets into our lives. once they have arrived, they are family and the most important issue is that they be loved and treated well. i would rather have people stay at pf and help each other with assuring that that happens rather than criticizing each other for something that isn't going to change; no loving owner is going to turn a pet out because someone else disagrees with how that pet came into the world.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> While I agree in principle to only buying poodles from breeders who do genetic testing and show or do performance sports, I do not think all backyard breeders should not exist. I do not think there would be enough puppies from good breeders for all those people wanting poodle puppies. Responsible small breeders serve a function.
> 
> I also think this is a free country, and many people who could afford to pay a lot for a puppy do not believe that a puppy should cost that much and will not pay the price a good breeder would charge.
> 
> ...



I was just speaking today on Facebook with somebody who got one of those "bargain" puppies - went home at 8 weeks, got sick almost immediately, several thousand dollars later they saved it's life, and now it looks like it either has severe luxating patellar or Legg Calve Perthes - either one is going to cost several thousands of dollars to fix each leg.
Right now just not seeing a place at all for breeders who will provide cheaper puppies - it seems like false hope as those puppies frequently wind up costing 10-20 times what a well bred healthy puppy would. If the supplier wasn't there, then those customers would either fork over the money for a well bred puppy, or realize that they cannot afford a fog (and never have to suffer finding out just how much they couldn't afford one). You don't really think that the majority of people who pinch pennies buying a puppy are going to pay for health insurance for them, do you?
Of course, for quality breeders to produce enough puppies for the pet market, this country would have to let go of the attitude that the less you breed the better, and stop thinking that kennel is a dirty word...


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Wow, zooeysmom and sophie anne, that's pretty darn harsh!


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

I hope I haven't misunderstood many of you. 
I have lived in Iowa all my life...69 years, and every animal shelter I have ever been to has a price for their rescues. My daughter was a vet tech at a shelter, (and now is a senior vet tech at a major animal emergency hospital in Des Moines, and has just finished her education to work with pathologists at major hospitals in their labs.,) and it was because of her that I paid $150.00 for my schnauzer....otherwise, she had a $300.00 price tag. A standard poodle here in central Iowa at an animal rescue was $500.00 and just last summer, a standard poodle in Omaha at an animal shelter was priced at $550.00. We do have to pay money to rescue dogs at our animal shelters...and some are no-kill shelters, that is how the shelters are able to be financially independent. Many shelters will try to place a dog/cat before it enters their system, but most of the time, that is not possible. The dogs are priced according to popularity among the availability, age and health. Maybe not fair, but that is the way it is here. So, saying that because someone paid money for a shelter dog therefore it does not make it a rescue is untrue here in Iowa. Even to adopt a cat or kitten, there is a charge...maybe not much, but enough to cover the shelters expenses.
All the dogs (and cats) in our shelters must be spayed, neutered, and shots, and wormed before they are allowed to be adopted.
I guess I will refuse any more of Zooeysmom's comments as clearly she doesn't know what she is talking about. She does not live here, nor does she fully understand the circumstances of my rescue/adoption of Piper..
Every state can have different guidelines as to adoption or rescues or purchases. I know what they are here, I cannot say for other states.

All I can say is that each and everyone of you are entitled to buy whatever dog you wish to purchase, whether it is free, adopted, rescued, or purchased as long as that animal has a loving, caring home. And that does not make it right or wrong....it is YOUR business and no one elses.

I wish each and every one of you much success in what ever dog you choose....
Thank you to those of you for understanding where I was coming from...


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Of course you have to pay money to adopt an animal from a shelter. I paid $100 for my Maltese from a shelter. And yes, shelters in CA vaccinate and spay/neuter before any animal is released. Sheesh, I guess you will never understand what I'm trying to say either because you're not comprehending it or you don't want to hear it. 

You said: "All I can say is that each and everyone of you are entitled to buy whatever dog you wish to purchase, whether it is free, adopted, rescued, or purchased as long as that animal has a loving, caring home. And that does not make it right or wrong....it is YOUR business and no one elses."

That is a value judgment. I personally consider it very wrong to support backyard breeders and puppy mills. I am shocked if anyone thinks I'm being harsh for saying that.


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## grab (Jun 1, 2010)

I am more concerned that only two of their dogs are listed on the OFA site.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

I'm not sure how what I said could be interpreted as harsh, but I'll clarify here to hopefully keep from being misunderstood.

I think MiniPoo and I are in agreement:


MiniPoo said:


> "But I do not condemn those who find a *small breeder who seems responsible* and wants to take a chance on them."


I have no problem with the _puppies_ or the _misinformed/uninformed people_ that buy puppies from _breeders that have failed_ to do their due diligence as far as health testing and other preventative measures. While yes, they are supporting a business with their dollars that probably should not exist, I don't condemn people for not knowing better. A lot of times "bad" breeders go out of their way to seem "good" to the average person who doesn't know what questions to ask.

My spoo, Sophie, is from a through and through backyard breeder (who also dabbled in doodles) and she is a great dog bought for a pretty penny 16 years ago before we knew there was another way. Sophie's dam was taken out in the back yard and shot when she was no longer able to have puppies. If we had known that was how they did things, would we have still gotten Sophie? Probably. Because we didn't know that there was a better way to do things. We didn't even have internet in our house yet!

That said, I do have a problem with:
*a. *Breeders who knowingly choose not to use health testing and other common sense measures to give their pups the best possible chance and/or are just in it for a profit. Making a tidy profit selling puppies is fine to me, but the wellbeing of the puppies must come first.
*b. *Individuals who are aware of red flags from a breeder (no testing, no papers, etc) and choose to buy a puppy from them anyway because it is cute/cheaper than a puppy from an ethical breeder. I absolutely understand why it is tempting to "rescue" a puppy from a bad breeder, but agreeing to pay big $$ to do so is only ensuring that the business, on both an individual scale and on a larger market scale, continues.

I think that I could fall into category "*b*" if I were presented with some situations. But just because we are all susceptible to the temptation doesn't make it right or OK.

It's people who have the knowledge and choose not to use it that make me very sad.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Sophie Anne I agree with most of what you say, I just don't think it's appropriate to tell someone what they can or can't afford, that their dog doesn't qualify as a rescue or how to save money. I wish I could have liked/thanked patk's post more than once. There are breeders, and then there are breeders, and it's not always easy to sort through them. I paid top dollar in my opinion for Abbey, I could afford it and would pay it again but not from that breeder. That said, I'd come at anyone real hard if they said anything about my baby or my choices.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Caddy said:


> Sophie Anne I agree with most of what you say, I just don't think it's appropriate to tell someone what they can or can't afford, that their dog doesn't qualify as a rescue or how to save money. I wish I could have liked/thanked patk's post more than once. There are breeders, and then there are breeders, and it's not always easy to sort through them. I paid top dollar in my opinion for Abbey, I could afford it and would pay it again but not from that breeder. That said, I'd come at anyone real hard if they said anything about my baby or my choices.


All I'm saying is that I think we should expect people to do the best that they can with the information they have. Which it sounds like everyone in this thread has done, in their own way, with the resources they have/had available.

Of course I wasn't telling someone what they can afford (or saying what it takes to qualify a dog as a "rescue") in my first post, just proposing one alternative use of a $600 budget that doesn't contribute to an unethical breeder and stating that the purchase price of a dog is of the _least_ financial concern in dog ownership. It was posed as a question, not an order nor a statement from a position of authority on The Right Way To Get A Dog.

The decision, made in the past by someone else to purchase a dog for $600 from craigslist is not being put on trial but reflected upon which is the purpose of a forum like this. We learn from the past and from others' experiences, no?

Truly, I intend only to provoke thought and discussion and I don't want to hurt feelings.
:angel:


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

patk said:


> i am for finding a well-bred dog from a good breeder. but i also think we should be kind to one another about how we bring our pets into our lives. once they have arrived, they are family and the most important issue is that they be loved and treated well. i would rather have people stay at pf and help each other with assuring that that happens rather than criticizing each other for something that isn't going to change; no loving owner is going to turn a pet out because someone else disagrees with how that pet came into the world.


Thank you patk! Great post, and I totally agree and believe it! 

Someone on here recently said that I wouldn't know what a well bred dog is if I tripped over it. I only wish that certain someone would recognize the fact that I DO know what a well bred dog is, and that I DON'T have to trip over it, and that I HAVE learned a lot about searching for ( and buying) from a reputable breeder. But I WILL also say this, it's not her business ( or anyone else's for that matter), to insinuate that any of my past poodles looked horrible just because they didn't conform to the high standard of what she, or others, believed in. 

Years ago, I had someone ( not the same person) take a picture of my beautiful Trina, and they shared it( without my permission) all over the Internet just for the purpose of making fun of what she looked like, and putting me down as a dog owner. I was shocked beyond shocked that another Poddle owner would do that. The point is, there is NEVER a good reason for anyone to laugh at ( and talk so negatively about) what someone's Poodle looks like, and where it came from. The ONLY important thing is, is that dog is loved and is well cared for, and the owners give it the best life possible.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

TrixieTreasure said:


> Years ago, I had someone ( not the same person) take a picture of my beautiful Trina, and they shared it( without my permission) all over the Internet just for the purpose of making fun of what she looked like, and putting me down as a dog owner. I was shocked beyond shocked that another Poddle owner would do that. The point is, there is NEVER a good reason for anyone to laugh at ( and talk so negatively about) what someone's Poodle looks like, and where it came from. The ONLY important thing is, is that dog is loved and is well cared for, and the owners give it the best life possible.


That is really mean that someone did that to you and your beautiful dog--I'm sorry. 

But I was simply calling Dogs123 out for repeatedly calling her dog a rescue. Also, I stand by my moral and ethical code that people should not *knowingly* support byb and mills. I'm not saying ANYONE here has done so.

Okay, I'm so over this post! :aetsch:


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

Zoeysmom, I was not going to reply to this again but it really hurts me that people are so down on those of us who bought dogs from a "BYB" if that's what my breeder even was. 
I happened to have owned horses too and they were also very inexpensive grade horses who were easy keepers except for the one registered Tennessee walker that I could not keep sound. Paying for quality is no guarantee of soundness. BTW I tried to start with poodle rescue but there were no spoos at any rescue close enough that they would adopt to me. As per a former thread, we know how difficult rescues can be to deal with. Sorry, guess this touched a nerve.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

several people have come here with dogs already part of their family or with a plan they can't or refuse to change re how to go about getting a poodle and only learn after being here awhile what it means in terms of health and temperament to have a well-bred dog. often they decide that their next dog will come from a good breeder. but chasing them away before they have a chance to realize what "good breeder" means also means a lost opportunity to support good breeders. no matter what, though, if someone comes here looking for help with their dog(s) and someone can help, why not do so? jmo.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Raven's Mom said:


> Zoeysmom, I was not going to reply to this again but it really hurts me that people are so down on those of us who bought dogs from a "BYB" if that's what my breeder even was.
> I happened to have owned horses too and they were also very inexpensive grade horses who were easy keepers except for the one registered Tennessee walker that I could not keep sound. Paying for quality is no guarantee of soundness. BTW I tried to start with poodle rescue but there were no spoos at any rescue close enough that they would adopt to me. As per a former thread, we know how difficult rescues can be to deal with. Sorry, guess this touched a nerve.



First of all, thank you zoeysmom for what you said about Trina. I really appreciate it. And thank you Raven's Mom for your post too.

All of my dogs came from BYB's, with the exception of Kaydee, who came from a Hobby Breeder. Kaydee was the last dog I got, and that was in 2000 ( being born in 1999), and the breeder was into doing (some) genetic testing. In fact, I didn't even know that I was 'getting it right' from this breeder. All I knew was that I felt good about a breeder who only had two dogs that she was breeding.

After getting onto a message board in 2001, people mostly were just talking about their beautiful dogs. At some point in time after that, is when I started learning about reputable breeders ( and if I remember right, that was mostly on the Standard Poodle Board, not the Toy Poodle Board). Over the years, the talk of reputable breeders and what they stand for, came more and more into play, where people were really starting to understand the importance of good breeders. It doesn't make those of us who had gotten our dogs from BYB's bad people. It just means that, over the course of years, people were starting to learn what the difference is, and how we want to go about getting our next dog.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

(quote) It just means that, over the course of years, people were starting to learn what the difference is, and how we want to go about getting our next dog. 

I agree totally 3 of my 7 poodles came from good breeders the other 4 did not, but I actually knew nothing about breeders. I know I wanted toys and the color and that is what I got. One that was re homed to me came she was 3 yrs came from a good breeder. I also have purchase dogs because I could not leave them behind. I have been very lucky and had no major medical problems with any of them. If they sneeze I take them to the vets, and my vet said he has never seen dogs taken better care of and it has kept them really healthy. Many of my trips to the vets was not necessary but I did not know that at the time. I have learned a lot her on this forum


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I agree that we need to be supportive of people who are good owners- regardless of how they got there. Education is the key to people understanding the value of supporting ethical breeding, but the quality of breeders exist along a continuum, as has been previously pointed out. It's not black and white. This ACC ranch is a puppy mill though- as gr8pudel pointed out- very high volume with many breeds and mixes. ugh. 

But it's really easy to fall for a cute puppy. A couple years ago, I was out shopping and stopped to see what the pet store had. I always do that- don't know why, as it's very existence bothers me, but I like to look at the dogs. 
I would never support this store- but on that particular day, they had a parti color poodle that could have been Lily as a puppy. Same markings, very similar face-OMG- I wanted to bring that puppy home so bad.

An employee saw me looking at her and asked if I wanted to hold her- I mumbled something about already having three dogs and left the store. But I can't tell you how often the image of that puppy comes to me. I know that the feeling were so overwhelming because I often wish I knew Lily as a puppy, and could have done right by her- but it's not a reason to support that store. I already saved Lily, I didn't need a puppy to affirm that. But I do hope that little girl found a good home. Our emotions are complex, and they do drive our actions- the rational mind doesn't always win!


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

I paid 50.00 for a dog that was advertised on a site similar to CL.
I PAID money to get the dog.
Was it a rescue? Depends on who read the ad and who saw that little dog.
I know I rescued that dog...even though money was given to a horrible woman.
Will she continue to breed and abuse...not likely as I got some info on her and the dog was horribly abused. This dog was not waiting in a shelter- it was listed for a few quick bucks. This dog has value. I'm not sure how to shut down people who breed just for profit BUT I do know every life has importance and I will never apologize for helping any animal EVER. EVEN IF I find them on CL.


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

zooeysmom said:


> Dogs123 wrote:
> 
> My currant spoo (my first spoo) I sort of "rescued" from a gal who had an AKC litter, and she was the last and the breeder "wanted her gone." I paid $600. for her.
> 
> ...



Wow girl, if you are trying to enlighten new members...you are failing miserably.


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

Poodles from ACC Ranch

We could invite her to respond.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Quote: Wow girl, if you are trying... /quote

Pumpkinpoodle, Zooeysmom has some really good points; I agree the dog acquired for $600 was a purchase, although the owner likely very legitimately feels she perhaps saved her darling Spoo from going to someone who would maybe toss her outside or breed her without care. She may also very well have gone to someone like the owner who would have cherished her. The current owner got there first, and we can all be glad for that.

Zooeysmom has a brilliant point that bears serious thought when questioning whether one would want to support an operation such as the OP's linked outfit. In this day and age how often do we hear of people signing petitions or things going viral on twitter or facebook about shunning a company? Think of all the commentary after the awful BP blowout that did unspeakable damage in the Gulf a few years ago (obviously very different from this situation). That's what I get from Zooeysmom's question. Why not base one's judgment to support a company based on its operation and products?

I wish a charitable spirit towards all well-meaning members here (and Zooeysmom is without question one of those), and try to understand that someone posting something that sounds hard to hear (read) comes from a special place in that person's mind and heart. And I don't agree with everything the lovely Zooeysmom says, matter of fact . If I did, I wouldn't have a Poodle now . And that's okay. She is going through a tremendous transition period in her life right now, and the fact she joins in and participates to the extent she's finding it possible is important to us, and hopefully to her, too. I stand with her in asking the ethics question about supporting an operation like some described.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

While ACC Ranch is a doodle raiser as well as poodle raiser I have been told that she does take very good care of her animals. However most folks would consider her at the very least a large scale breeder. This link will give you a slightly better idea what she breeds and more photos of her dogs.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Thank you for your support, Streetcar, and thank you for_ getting it _


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

Read this back to yourself Streetcar.
I missed her brilliant point. (sorry-was that a prerequisite?)

You should "protect" all of your members.


Streetcar	Quote: Wow girl, if you are trying... /quote

Pumpkinpoodle, Zooeysmom has some really good points; I agree the dog acquired for $600 was a purchase, although the owner likely very legitimately feels she perhaps saved her darling Spoo from going to someone who would maybe toss her outside or breed her without care. She may also very well have gone to someone like the owner who would have cherished her. The current owner got there first, and we can all be glad for that.

Zooeysmom has a brilliant point that bears serious thought when questioning whether one would want to support a puppy mill, which the OP's linked outfit is indeed. In this day and age how often do we hear of people signing petitions or things going viral on twitter or facebook about shunning a company that does terrible things or provides awful or unreliable service on a widescale basis? Think of all the commentary after the awful BP blowout that did unspeakable damage in the Gulf a few years ago! That's what I get from Zooeysmom's question. Why support a company (and that puppy mill is indeed a company) that's spitting out vast quantities of lousy product (sadly, ill-bred puppies) without caring about quality (of life for the puppies and especially for the breeding dogs who don't get to leave)?

I wish a charitable spirit towards all well-meaning members here (and Zooeysmom is without question one of those), and try to understand that someone posting something that sounds hard to hear (read) comes from a special place in that person's mind and heart. And I don't agree with everything the lovely Zooeysmom says, matter of fact . If I did, I wouldn't have a Poodle now . And that's okay. She is going through a tremendous transition period in her life right now, and the fact she joins in and participates to the extent she's finding it possible is important to us, and hopefully to her, too. I stand with her in asking the ethics question about supporting such an operation.
Today 02:42 PM
pumpkinpoodle	Poodles from ACC Ranch


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

It is about the animals no?


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

I applaud your response but everyone has issues and troubles. 
It is no excuse to be unkind to others.
If you dont think it is what you call a rescue...move the heck on.
I'm not sure how being a really mean person to another member helped any animal.


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

pumpkinpoodle said:


> Poodles from ACC Ranch
> 
> We could invite her to respond.


She might respond now that she has the information. 
I hope she does.
I extended the invite


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

pumpkinpoodle said:


> I applaud your response but everyone has issues and troubles.
> It is no excuse to be unkind to others.
> If you dont think it is what you call a rescue...move the heck on.
> I'm not sure how being a really mean person to another member helped any animal.



This particular thread is not really about helping the animals, it's about educating people on making a better/the best choice when buying from a breeder, and what to look for, what to avoid.

I agree, there is no reason to be unkind to people, but sometimes we all have our snarky, bad days. Pointing out once when a member is being unnecessarily harsh makes sense, bringing it up multiple times and being snarky/rude as well, doesn't really make sense.
Report your concerns to a moderator or report the post, or maybe private message the person you have issues with, and deal with it privately.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

spindledreams said:


> While ACC Ranch is a doodle raiser as well as poodle raiser I have been told that she does take very good care of her animals. However most folks would consider her at the very least a large scale breeder. This link will give you a slightly better idea what she breeds and more photos of her dogs.


Spindledreams, that is nice to hear. They did not look mistreated in the photos posted on the site and I don't doubt the owners offer affection and care for their dogs. Doesn't change my thoughts based on what I saw when first visiting a link for the business, which may have been a different link from the one the OP posted. 

ETA: Btw, your link is the one I had visited when making my first post on this thread.


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

Locket said:


> This particular thread is not really about helping the animals, it's about educating people on making a better/the best choice when buying from a breeder, and what to look for, what to avoid.
> 
> I agree, there is no reason to be unkind to people, but sometimes we all have our snarky, bad days. Pointing out once when a member is being unnecessarily harsh makes sense, bringing it up multiple times and being snarky/rude as well, doesn't really make sense.
> Report your concerns to a moderator or report the post, or maybe private message the person you have issues with, and deal with it privately.


I can clearly see it is not about helping the animals.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

My first childhood dog was a mutt from a pound...I think a Beagle/terrier mix or some such thing. She lived to be 18 years old and was always healthy. She ate Purina dog chow and Gravy Train.

Her son, our other dog was part Lab and he lived to be 15 and was always healthy until the end. Nobody health tested their parents, I can tell you that much.

Fast forward to my more recent dogs...Chulita, a byb Chihuahua who lived to be nearly 14...always healthy except for a minor heart murmur which, in her old age, became worse and finally she succumbed to CHF. But she was almost 14! Jose`, I still have at almost 14 (March 1st). He had no health testing that I'm aware of and the only thing wrong with him when he was young was a luxating patella, which $500 later, was fixed and he hasn't had trouble with that since. It's interesting...Matisse, my one toy Poodle with a problem knee had it fixed and all these years later it was just $600 to fix plus some therapy afterwards. And this is Washington, not Idaho where Jose` had it done.

I think health testing reduces the odds of problems but doesn't guarantee anything. Some issues are not directly genetic. Furthermore, because of such a narrow gene pool, some issues are in fact, in all the lines. But I wouldn't hesitate to get a dog from a working farm type setting say...where the dogs don't show, have no titles, have no formal health testing but the people use their dogs to work. The dogs are capable of long hours of running, swimming, hunting, whatever and they have temperaments that show they can work with people. If I were purchasing a Border Collie let's say, I wouldn't necessarily go to a show breeder or an agility star. I'd very likely look for a rancher with sheep who uses his dogs to work. If they can work and run all day long, they're conformationally and temperamentally sound in my book. 

I bought my Chi's from a byb and they turned out fine...great temperaments and healthy. It doesn't always turn out like that. Jose` is not anatomically correct for a Chihuahua and in fact, I often say he's a mix. But he was suppose to be all Chihuahua. These two dogs were $500. each btw. 

If I were in your shoes...now with all the advice from experienced Poodle people, I would run from this particular breeder because of what's been mentioned already. I don't like large scale breeders and I do not believe for one minute that they need that many dogs to produce nice puppies of adequate genetic diversity. There are great sires all over the world and their sperm can be shipped easily enough. A breeder can have a couple nice bitches and use males from anywhere. She doesn't need to own so many dogs. There is no excuse imo to have more dogs than can be adequately raised with plenty of love, attention, cleanliness and so forth. I don't even care if there are workers a plenty. That is not the same as being raised in a home-like situation. 

I agree with Zooeysmom in that it isn't moral to support byb or puppy mill when one_ has_ been educated in the matter. It is rewarding them with funds and so they are able to continue breeding without the dogs' best interest at heart...without the whole breed's best interest at heart and without the buyer's best interest at heart. 

We need breeders who keep the purebred breeds we have distinct, not breeders who mix and match haphazardly, who don't try diligently to breed to improve the breed. There are plenty of mixed breeds in shelters and rescue organizations, woops litters in the newspaper for those who want a mixed breed. Why keep creating more on purpose? To stop that immoral practice people need to stop rewarding it. And that includes show breeders with nice dogs who have _too __many_ dogs that they can't be cared for in a humane way...clean areas, clean water, adequate individual attention and affection, adequate socialization. Too many dogs tends to prevent this. We have threads that go on and on about a particular breeder who was arrested and convicted of animal cruelty as well as kicked out of AKC for this very thing. Don't let yourself support people who don't do right by animals. Good breeders strive to eliminate or lessen health problems. They can't always but they try. If someone is breeding to produce mutts/doodles, they aren't likely using the best of the best because reputable breeders do things to prevent their dogs from getting into such a breeding program once purchased. So the parents are often not from health tested parents etc etc. 

Definitely not ethical, that mixing to make doodles. That's just a big no no. An excessive number of dogs just indicates greed to me or a hording problem. My Chihuahua byb (which I'm embarrassed that I went through, now. No Internet for me back then) had quite a few dogs, but not a huge number and they were in the house, well socialized and relatively clean. She loved the dogs, I could tell. But she later increased her number and evolved into a puppy mill and got busted. Started out okay...then woah! Things got out of hand. This breeder wound up getting another location with her mother. Two places! What a shockeroo that was when I read that news...years after I had gotten my two Chihuahuas. 

My Doberman breeder had one litter. They were in the kitchen. She bred I think once, maybe twice a year if that. See how she got the pups use to a crate? 



Anyhow, there are all kinds of ways to get a dog...some better than others but the bottom line for me is as we learn more what to watch for, it's our duty to our best friends, domestic dogs, who ask so little of us, to do the very best by them and that starts with breeding.

*So, keep looking. You'll find someone.*


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> . Don't let yourself support people who don't do right by animals. Good breeders strive to eliminate or lessen health problems. They can't always but they try. .[/SIZE][/B]



Sometimes they CAN do something to eliminate health problems such as luxating patella's, but they don't bother to. 
Instead They build themselves a tight little community of also unethical breeders to create the facade of a "sterling reputation" for one another. Everyone "in the know" knows full well that they are churning out puppy after puppy with poor conformation and debilitating health problems, but their tight little circle will look away as they slap make-up and titles on their below average dogs and they stick pet buyers with puppy after puppy that will require thousands of dollars in surgery just to walk without pain. 
Shameful cruelty in pursuit of titles, and very difficult to discover until it is too late, because those "in the inner circle" don't tell tales on each other - instead they deftly contrive tales about those outside the circle in order to deflect negative attention from themselves....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I do not know ACC from a hole in the ground, but my Lord, that is a lot of dogs! And one heck of a lot of oodles. This would surely not be someone I would consider.


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

This is my last comment on this subject....
I have read all of your comments. I thank those of you that don't attack or hurt someone's feelings even if your opinion is different than theirs.
We all should have the right to be able to express our opinions or decisions without being attacked on a forum.
I do have 2 schnauzers. And yes, one was purchased/adopted/rescued from a shelter, along with her 1 yr. old brother who was adopted 7 years ago (my son has him). They had a $300. adoption fee each. While my daughter was going to college, she worked there and because of her, we got them for $150.00 ea. The shelter adopted, rehomed, (whatever you choose to call it to us. They turned out to be very loving, sweet, and healthy dogs. As I mentioned earlier.
I also purchased another schnauzer from a top top breeder in Texas, for $1800.00 and had her hand shipped to me by air, additional $300.00. Her litter's parents were all health tested, a written 3 yr. health guarantee and AKC. At 3 yrs. old, she developed a tumor on her kidney, and had to have both the kidney and tumor removed. When the breeder was told, all she said is "I'm sorry" and since I could not PROVE it was inherited, I had no recourse.
My mini poodle came for a top breeder in California, same thing, AKC, health tested, and today at 12, she was always healthy.
Then, back in 1985, I purchased a toy poodle from a top Chicago breeder who had developed the Montec blood line, same thing health tested, etc. I chose to have the toy poodle shown at AKC shows as she was "top of the line". We hired a handler from Minn. to show her. At 10 months old she went B.O.B., in a long line up of poodles. By 12 months she died of liver disease at a handlers place. I had an autopsy done and it was not an inherited disease.
Therefore, I still feel that purchasing a dog can be a crap shoot. Having a dog tested is good for those particular problems, but doesn't guarantee a healthy dog.
I did go online and check my poodles lineage....she comes from a line called Meadowand Poodles and Kitsue. 

These are my experiences in the dog world and why I feel the way I do. I also am against puppymills bigtime. But going to Pipers breeders (this was the end of July) she had maybe 8 adult poodles all in large runs (very clean), with shelters, all groomed, and all healthy. She allowed me to walk around the place and greet any poodle I wanted. I also met the father and mother of Piper. I did not feel this was a puppy mill. BYB, maybe, as she doesn't show her dogs, and Piper's parents were not tested, but her line was.
I guess what I was trying to say is that the word "rescue" can take on many meaning for different people.
If I have offended anyone on here, I am sorry, however, I felt attacked and defended myself.
I will no longer participate on this forum....I have a good deal of experience with handling dogs, grooming, and showing AKC. I just tried to be helpful.
I don't need this kind of grief in my life. The schnauzer form is much more helpful, understanding, and encouraging than what I have experienced here. I think I will stay there.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I was surprised that a big deal has been made on whether or not a person adopted, rescued, or purchased a dog. So what if they are using the term "rescue" when you see it as an adoption? It doesn't change the facts.

Sometimes we get too caught up in our own beliefs on what is right and wrong in breeding/raising dogs that we scare away people. I have strong beliefs about where to get a dog as well, and the word "doodle" makes me cringe a little and I wished it did not. A new person on this forum has been using the word "doodle" in the title of their threads, and I want to tell him, "Stop saying doodle! This is a poodle forum and many people do not like the word doodle" but I thought maybe it is good for us to have that word bandied about so we can get used to it and overcome our knee jerk reaction. I am *not *promoting the breeding of doodles, but I have indeed met some doodles that I like a lot. I do not want to have that knee jerk reaction to the name. I feel that my reaction has actually gotten worse since frequenting this forum.

We want to help other people and we sometimes go overboard. I put myself in that same category.

Why can't we just agree to disagree without repeatedly throwing our disagreement at another person? Our chasing other people away for believing something different from us is not going to change their minds.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Well said Minipoo!
I am not part of the main issue being debated here, but as a side note, I would like to add that one of the reasons that I am such a big fan of my breeder is exactly because of what happened with Dogs123's Montec poodle - I have NO DOUBT that despite the fact that the liver disease could not be traced to an inherited problem, had that been one of my breeder's dogs, she would have immediately removed it's parents and any related dogs from her breeding program. There are very few inherited diseases that Toy Poodles can be tested for, primarily just PRA and luxating patellas - and in the quest of a winning dog, we have seen breeders who don't even remove dogs with those afflictions from their breeding programs, so I get a lot of comfort knowing that my girl's breeding is a result of over fifty years of selecting out any and all debilitating diseases. That is a rare gem that is difficult to find even amongst those with the most sterling discernible reputations in the poodle world!
But even with that, they are still living being subject to genetic recombinations and environmental influences that nobody can predict, therefore I also think that the single most important health guarantee that any dog can have, no matter where they came from is their Petplan Policy. And it should be noted that no matter what we think about Doodle Breeders, the fact is that Petplan, and all of the pet insurance companies believe, according to their statistics, that a poodle mix overall has fewer health risks than a purebred poodle, and accordingly charge a lower rate for a mix. Which has to give you pause for thought about what all of the health testing and responsible breeding has gotten us....


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

dogs123 said:


> This is my last comment on this subject....
> I have read all of your comments. I thank those of you that don't attack or hurt someone's feelings even if your opinion is different than theirs.
> We all should have the right to be able to express our opinions or decisions without being attacked on a forum.
> I do have 2 schnauzers. And yes, one was purchased/adopted/rescued from a shelter, along with her 1 yr. old brother who was adopted 7 years ago (my son has him). They had a $300. adoption fee each. While my daughter was going to college, she worked there and because of her, we got them for $150.00 ea. The shelter adopted, rehomed, (whatever you choose to call it to us. They turned out to be very loving, sweet, and healthy dogs. As I mentioned earlier.
> ...



This is such a great post that I wanted to be sure to quote the whole thing. I just wanted to say, don't leave! You have just as much right to be here as the rest of us, and you absolutely contribute a lot on this forum. You also have every right to defend yourself if you feel attacked. We all do. So I hope you do stay! ?


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

MiniPoo said:


> I was surprised that a big deal has been made on whether or not a person adopted, rescued, or purchased a dog. So what if they are using the term "rescue" when you see it as an adoption? It doesn't change the facts.
> 
> Sometimes we get too caught up in our own beliefs on what is right and wrong in breeding/raising dogs that we scare away people. I have strong beliefs about where to get a dog as well, and the word "doodle" makes me cringe a little and I wished it did not. A new person on this forum has been using the word "doodle" in the title of their threads, and I want to tell him, "Stop saying doodle! This is a poodle forum and many people do not like the word doodle" but I thought maybe it is good for us to have that word bandied about so we can get used to it and overcome our knee jerk reaction. I am *not *promoting the breeding of doodles, but I have indeed met some doodles that I like a lot. I do not want to have that knee jerk reaction to the name. I feel that my reaction has actually gotten worse since frequenting this forum.
> 
> ...



With all respect, how could you not see this as a big issue, when your own go at each other. There is nothing wrong with words. You give them power...when you hate. A doodle is STILL a dog.. I'm cool with it. Go with the flow, it's ok. Everyone learns when they get to read.


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

pumpkinpoodle said:


> With all respect, how could you not see this as a big issue, when your own go at each other. There is nothing wrong with words. You give them power...when you hate. A doodle is STILL a dog.. I'm cool with it. Go with the flow, it's ok. Everyone learns when they get to read.


 And good on you for recognizing this. Mini

xo


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

pumpkinpoodle why are you quoting yourself? I don't get your point.


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

pumpkinpoodle said:


> With all respect, how could you not see this as a big issue, when your own go at each other. There is nothing wrong with words. You give them power...when you hate. A doodle is STILL a dog.. I'm cool with it. Go with the flow, it's ok. Everyone learns when they get to read.





lily cd re said:


> pumpkinpoodle why are you quoting yourself? I don't get your point.


new to posting lily.
But thanks for the warm welcome.
Even if I hadn't made the posting mistake, I'm sure you still wouldn't get my point) I am so sorry that my one mistake confused you so. I'll try and do better in future quotes and posts. I feel so bad that my one mistake threw you off so badly. (its ok, just read the other posts and it will make sense and points to you)


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

No actually I read all of the posts in this thread and I still don't get your point, but you are new to the community and I will chalk it all up to your newness.


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

lily cd re said:


> No actually I read all of the posts in this thread and I still don't get your point, but you are new to the community and I will chalk it all up to your newness.


My point would be lost on you.
Ill chalk you up too.

:aetsch:


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## ChantersMom (Aug 20, 2012)

pumpkinpoodle said:


> My point would be lost on you.
> Ill chalk you up too.
> 
> :aetsch:


Goodness! What is that smilie? Sticking your tongue out and waving your fingers at another poster? My children wouldn't even do that (I have beautiful children). Shame on you. Now go write out 100 times " I will not use that smilie ever again".


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

RunChanter said:


> Goodness! What is that smilie? Sticking your tongue out and waving your fingers at another poster? My children wouldn't even do that (I have beautiful children). Shame on you. Now go write out 100 times " I will not use that smilie ever again".


I am not your child but I did feel a bit bad. (that makes you a really good mom)
It was a provided smiley thing though.
Gotta go finish my writings, I have no doubt you have beautiful children.
Thank you very much. (Bratty is not nice)
xo


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## Lori G (Sep 19, 2014)

I really wish Admin would close this discussion...


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

Lori G said:


> I really wish Admin would close this discussion...


Why Lori?


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

pumpkinpoodle said:


> Why Lori?


not great at quoting .. holy **** just delete my posts if I upset Lori SOOOOOOOOOOOOOo bad.
I'd rather never post than have a whole VALUABLE thread go poof cause I upset Lori. I was invited here. I have an opinion and a feeling. The last time I checked an opinion is permitted. (ask the dude that got pissed about sharing locations) 
cept Lori don't like it
Lori. why do you want admin to close this discussion?


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

Thanks Admin.

Thank you for the invite.. delete me.
I think I just broke a rule..the good bye post.
Sorry.
Wave your wand...
That should be enough to get me out. 

I was enjoying the grooming section, I'm so bad at it.
Glad my poodles love momma 
But they still love the groomer-lol

TY


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