# height restrictions in showing



## Luthian Blue (Aug 31, 2012)

Hi

Just got a 6 month old toy poodle pup, he is gorgeous, has great movement, wonderful conformation, great bite, and to boot is a great showman. I had got him as a show prospect from a good kennel, only problem is he is a 1/4 to a 1/2 inch too tall! Im not expecting him to be a crufts champion or anything, but im a bit disappointed. 
My question is, is that it can I never show him? How strict is it, are the dogs measured every time? Do judges give an allowance on dogs being a bit larger? If everything else is sound would a quarter inch be forgiven?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

According to the KC standard it is a fault, rather than an automatic disqualification:
"Size
Poodles (Toy): height at shoulder should be under 28 cms (11 ins).

Faults
Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog and on the dog’s ability to perform its traditional work."

At six months he probably has some growing still to do, so may end up well over the size standard. I doubt an oversized dog, even if not disqualified, would ever be a prize winner, which rather defeats the object of showing. Have you thought of competing in a performance sport instead?


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## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

Since the difference between a toy, mini and standard is purely determined on height - is it not the case that you might have a small mini, rather than a large toy? (at least that's my understanding of the difference)

at 6 months, you may have a bit of growth to come... you may have a not so short mini, instead of a giant toy....


sarah


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

I'm not sure how Scotland feels about this issue, but I know that here, the AKC is pretty strict, although I've observed that well known people can get away with showing a dog that is 1/2", or maybe even more, over the standard. _Technically,_ you could just enter your toy with the minis, but I'm not sure that would fly very well, although it is likely your toy has more growing to do and so might end up being a more acceptable size for a mini. Can you talk to your breeder or mentor about it?


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## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

mom24doggies said:


> I'm not sure how Scotland feels about this issue, but I know that here, the AKC is pretty strict, although I've observed that well known people can get away with showing a dog that is 1/2", or maybe even more, over the standard. _Technically,_ you could just enter your toy with the minis, but I'm not sure that would fly very well, although it is likely your toy has more growing to do and so might end up being a more acceptable size for a mini. Can you talk to your breeder or mentor about it?


What's the difference between a toy, a mini and a standard? other than height?

sarah


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

sarahmurphy said:


> What's the difference between a toy, a mini and a standard? other than height?
> 
> sarah


 There isn't supposed to be any difference. Their standards are the same except for height.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I don't think you can show a large Toy as a Miniature in the UK - they are registered as different "breeds", so how a pup is registered depends upon how its parents are registered. The offspring of two Toys is a Toy, regardless of size, and would have to be entered as such - or at least that is my understanding!


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## Luthian Blue (Aug 31, 2012)

Thanks guys for all the feedback!

I sent an email to my breeder, as he was oversized when I got him so I feel like I was a little bit taken advantage of for being a novice!
I love him so much in such a short time, so I dont have any regrets! Im a groomer so I can still use him for comps, and agility is a good idea.
I know I cant show him as a mini, my mentor seems to think the smaller county open shows should be ok, im just worried we wont be even allowed in the ring! Like I say winning anything was always a long shot, but its awful for it to be over before its begun!


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

Don't know about Scotland however in the US and Canada, I have NEVER seen a judge get out a ruler. If the handler is tall, the dog will look shorter. Proportion is also important. There are toys that I have seen oversized, yet unless directly next to another toy, their proportion is so good that it is difficult to see the size difference. While in the ring, keep a distance between you and the adjacent dogs if you can.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I do think you were taken advantage of by being sold an oversized toy as a show dog. Still, having any good quality, good looking toy puts you way above most people who want a toy. On a good note, the larger toys have fewer health issues than the little ones. You can do a bit of creative grooming to make him look a touch smaller in the ring, couldn't you?


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## Luthian Blue (Aug 31, 2012)

Im over six feet tall, so that works out well!
What can I do grooming wise, make his top knot longer/shorter?

Got in touch with breeder and so far, not too helpful! Ive only had him maybe three weeks,i take itt its highly unlikely he grew an inch in that time!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yah, I am so sorry this happened. Ask in the grooming area about creating a visually smaller guy. He doesn't have to be teeny, only not look a lot bigger than everyone else.


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## Luthian Blue (Aug 31, 2012)

The breeder seems to genuinely not know he was too big, she has offered another pup or return him. Don't want either but don't know what to say now! Is that normal solutions offered in this situation?


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## dcail (Feb 1, 2011)

Yes, that's what a good breeder will do for you, make it right by you. I can understand your attachment to him now but if showing is something you really want to do you may want to reconsider. Have you had a handler look at him to get professional opinion about his height? Just a thought on my part! Good luck!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Luthian Blue said:


> The breeder seems to genuinely not know he was too big, she has offered another pup or return him. Don't want either but don't know what to say now! Is that normal solutions offered in this situation?


 If showing was your goal in getting a puppy, I would return the dog, hard as it is. OR get another pup and have two. After all, MPS WILL get you one of these days. I swore I wouldn't get another poo until I moved out of my parents house and look at me now....I have a mini and a toy, and I will hopefully be getting a spoo after I move. What can I say, "poodle" is catching!


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## mbculhane (Jun 23, 2012)

Hey I was at the Birmingham city champ show checking out future competition (as you do) and I noticed that after the toys were taken off the table they were measured.  sorry. Everyone was put under a right angle ruler like a smaller version of the ones they use at theme parks.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think I would ask the breeder whether you could opt for a reduced price on a second pup in a year or so - or a partial refund on this one (perhaps the difference in what you would expect to pay for a show prospect rather than a pet). Successfully raising two pups at once is very, very hard work, and both pups deserve the very best from you. 

It does strike me that if the breeder was unaware that your puppy was oversize, they may not be a show breeder, and may not be the most reliable source for a winning puppy.


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## Luthian Blue (Aug 31, 2012)

The breeder is def a show kennel, and sire is from very well known show kennel (to remain nameless!) lots of champs in lines. I researched very carefully before a got him and choose this pup over some other quality pups. I guess I would rather think all they had was good intentions rather trying to unload an unwanted pup! Maybe me being gullable again! Is it cheeky to ask for partial refund, I know a don't want a new pup, and my wee boy isn't going anywhere!


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## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

a partial refund on this one (perhaps the difference in what you would expect to pay for a show prospect rather than a pet). 

Exactly what fjm said - I don't think that's cheeky at all. If the pup was sold as a show dog, and is outside the standard, then he is really just a pet. If you choose to show him, you are working with or against the "faults", depending on your POV.

As a small business owner, I'd make the partial refund. Heck, being me, I'd probably give you all of your money back... 

Sarah


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## Ruscha_Baby (May 22, 2011)

*An Idiot's Response (Potentially)*

I have a Miniature and two Toys. The Mini is fine, but the Toys are an inch too tall to show with any degree of success (sigh... I was never going to show so...)

Anyway, my view regarding "la difference" is that my Mini is like a shrunken version of a Standard, in that she does not have free-flowing eyes and she moves and sounds like a smaller version of a Standard Poodle. If you just inflated her with an air pump, she would be a Standard.

My Toys, on the other hand, have free-flowing eyes and they (kind of) behave more like some terriers (a little jealousy now and then and a tendency to yap when anything... even leaves in the wind... approach the house). They are inclined to leap onto my lap at any given moment for cuddles, whereas my Mini has as much inclination to do that as a Standard (pretty much none).

I am sure someone here will shoot me down in flames, but to suggest that a Toy has anything much in common with a Standard, apart from some obvious physical similarities, is just wishing that assertion into reality.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Luthian Blue said:


> Hi
> 
> Just got a 6 month old toy poodle pup, he is gorgeous, has great movement, wonderful conformation, great bite, and to boot is a great showman. I had got him as a show prospect from a good kennel, only problem is he is a 1/4 to a 1/2 inch too tall! Im not expecting him to be a crufts champion or anything, but im a bit disappointed.
> My question is, is that it can I never show him? How strict is it, are the dogs measured every time? Do judges give an allowance on dogs being a bit larger? If everything else is sound would a quarter inch be forgiven?


Luthian Blue how did you measure your boy? With a wicket?

If your boy was uptight or stressed out he may have measured taller than when he is relaxed. Many toys and small breed dogs are done the majority of their growth by 6 months so he may measure in yet. 

In horses, who are also measure at the highest point of the shoulders, fitness or relaxed musculature can change the height measurement.

Good luck.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

In the FCI you can move Poodles between sizes when they are 14 months old then they are measured and moved if needed. Is that not the care with the KC ? Have you checked that out ?


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## HighStandard Poodles (Oct 5, 2012)

How it was explained to me is that they go by hight
and actully an over sized toy could actully be shown as a mini because the breed standard
is the same for all poodles except the hight requirement and there hight is what makes them a toy mini or standard


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## HighStandard Poodles (Oct 5, 2012)

How it was explained to me is that they go by hight
and actully an over sized toy could actully be shown as a mini because the breed standard
is the same for all poodles except the hight requirement and there hight is what makes them a toy mini or standard


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I think that if you bought a "show" pup & it is oversize then you should be given the difference between a "show" & "pet" price. That being said you really need to measure correctly a 1/4" or 1/2" over actually is a big difference so make sure what size your T.Poodle is.

On another note you can make your dog look smaller "hair" wise. It is great that you are tall. You will have to leave more hair on the belly of your dog to shorten up the leg length & reduce negative space. Then you need to shorten the top part of the coat which all most everyone will cringe at but you don't have to take off a great deal just to give a slightly shorter looking dog.


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