# Breeders and dental genetics



## vegas (Jul 5, 2014)

I am still learning about poodles, and have a question that doesn't seem to be addressed in other threads. I would like to get a tpoo from a good breeder. I understand that good breeders test their breeding stock to avoid passing on a variety of genetic disorders. I also understand that tpoos can have special dental problems because of their small mouths, so I should make sure to provide good dental care.

Are any of these dental problems influenced by genetics? Do breeders consider this in choosing their breeding stock? Should I ask about the dental health of the sire and dam? Or would that be completely useless as a predictor?


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Thats a great question! Retained puppy teeth happens often in toys, even mine had them. You could check their teeth, but that isn't a 100% one way or another. I would love to hear from TP breeders on the subject. Some just have them removed if they don't come out by 6-9 months since they will throw their bite off. Dentition is checked in the show ring. I find that in my case, even tho they say that not to feed wet because of teeth etc.. It seems that it doesn't help as much as they say. Some individuals just have better dental health over all. Even tho my toy lost her front top 4 teeth, all her other teeth are intact. Her teeth don't get as dirty as fast as my mini thats bigger as you can see in my sig lol


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

It is indeed common for toys to have retained puppy teeth even from the best breeders (Timi fortunately lost all of hers, but I think she is the only one out of Seven of mine who did). 
Crowding and misalignment is also common because of their size, but bite is indeed checked in the show ring, so for any reputable show breeder, good dentition is going to be one of the conformation factors that they consider.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Of all 7 toys I have had all had to have teeth pulled. I now have them cleaned once a year and use the teeth wipes after a meal. My new on is only 18 months and all her baby teeth had to be pulled before I got her. I think it is a toy poodle thing, as I feed them hard food when they had teeth


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

everyone including the vet is amazed that she had so many teeth and they got done for the first time last year and she's 11yrs now. She's only real missing the 4 top teeth between the canines


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## wolfcub81 (Feb 5, 2010)

Raw feeding will help avoid tartar build up and having to do frequent dentals.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Wish I could do raw but Eve is allergic to poultry and she really liked it too. Plus I got forgetful lol. Since it has to thaw out and stuff. How often could I do chicken necks? My toy gets honest kitchen, and thats close to raw


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## wolfcub81 (Feb 5, 2010)

There are a lot of protein options besides poultry  My cocker is allergic to beef and chicken, so he gets pork, turkey, duck, venison, rabbit, etc. You could supplement with a few raw bones a week to help keep the teeth in shape.


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## wolfcub81 (Feb 5, 2010)

As far as being forgetful, I frequently feed mine frozen or will pull it out and put in water for 20-40 minutes to thaw it out for a meal.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

She's a toy and chicken necks are just small enough for her to crunch on . Doesn't the other meat more likely to upset her tummy? Good idea about defrosting in the water, as I normally would replace neck in the fridge with a frozen to thaw out the next day. If I decided to only feed the raw for dental benefits can/ should I feed it more often?


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## Erica (Feb 28, 2015)

I often feed Delta's raw frozen so it takes him longer than 30 seconds to eat. He's not a gulper, and he chews properly, but he can demolish food! 

If I do want to thaw, when I go to get his breakfast from the fridge, I take his dinner from the freezer and put it in the fridge. Later, I grab breakfast from the freezer and put it in the fridge when I get his dinner out. It's the only way I won't forget!

Delta doesn't get poultry terribly often; I try to stick to mammal meat. Cow, goat, sheep, pig, rabbit (good alternative to chicken for easily chewed bones for small/young dogs)...though I know some dogs who were very allergic to chicken in kibble form, but had no issues with it raw. Can't say whether it's worth the risk to try it out, but it can happen.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I was about to say the same thing that Erica said. I don't know why but I have had dogs that react to chicken in kibble, but do fine with raw chicken. Must have something to do with the processing, or maybe it is a hidden ingredient? My little Jack Russell Terrier gets plenty of gnawing in on the premade raw nuggets if served frozen. He can also handle raw meaty marrow bones from the butcher, but I dig the marrow out as it is too rich for him. He's three and his teeth are pearly white.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

To OP: most dental issues derive from the muzzle's bone structure, and has strong inheritance. Good parents suggest good chance of good puppies, but if you can, get info of the grandparents too. Idk if you're planning to show and what your local rules say, but good dental is overlooked too often. Here in FCI land, if even one canine has any issue bigger than leaving an unbruising dent in the gum, or has been altered to fix such an issue, the dog will get an automatic DQ.



Ladyscarletthawk said:


> ... My toy gets honest kitchen, and thats close to raw


I'll have to disagree. It may be very similar considering the nutrition, but the physical differences are great. Raw simply is tough to eat, the meat is tight and attached to bone, there're veins and tendons and bones of course. The dental benefit of raw is largely mechanical. Of course, both raw and good kitchen lack filler stuff such as corn that's easier for harmful mouth bacteria to use.


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## vegas (Jul 5, 2014)

Not planning to show. Just want my future poodle to have the best chance of good dental health, and figured I should try to get genetics on my side to the extent that's possible. 

It sounds like any breeder of show dogs would be a good choice for me, because even their pet quality pups would come from parents with proper jaw structure.

And I could certainly provide some raw frozen treats even if I don't go with a 100% raw diet.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

peccan said:


> To OP: most dental issues derive from the muzzle's bone structure, and has strong inheritance. Good parents suggest good chance of good puppies, but if you can, get info of the grandparents too. Idk if you're planning to show and what your local rules say, but good dental is overlooked too often. Here in FCI land, if even one canine has any issue bigger than leaving an unbruising dent in the gum, or has been altered to fix such an issue, the dog will get an automatic DQ.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll have to disagree. It may be very similar considering the nutrition, but the physical differences are great. Raw simply is tough to eat, the meat is tight and attached to bone, there're veins and tendons and bones of course. The dental benefit of raw is largely mechanical. Of course, both raw and good kitchen lack filler stuff such as corn that's easier for harmful mouth bacteria to use.


My toy poodle (11yrs) had retained puppy teeth and a little snipey in the muzzle, she has also lost 4 top front teeth. My over medium sized mini (6yrs) has proper dentition and a nice head, and only lost one molar. If they eat the same food(nothing has corn, soy or wheat), and no dental care for a specified amount of time, the toy's teeth look in better shape than my minis. I want to say my toy's mouth looks like large dog's mouth, and my mini looks like what you'd think a toys should look like. Its really weird. 

When I said HK is almost like raw is that the ingredients except the meat are not cooked by the dehydration process.


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