# Should I be worried?



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

There is good advice on recognising the signs of bloat here: Search | The Bark

It sounds from what you say as if she could have pulled something, and be feeling achey - mine have shown similar symptoms.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

She hasn't been eating at all today. Completely refused her morning kibble. And pretty much lay in her bed all day after her morning potty break. I've tried drizzling honey on it, mixing in yogurt, soaking it in water - no interest. I gave her a bit of rice and boiled chicken around noon and she ate a couple spoonfuls of that after much encouragement, but left most of it untouched. Her poops are still normal, solid this morning, and solid one this afternoon but a little orange. 

She's still having back spasms whenever I pet her, but she's still not showing any signs of pain that I know of. 

The vet said they can't get her in today unless it's an emergency so I made an appointment for tomorrow afternoon. They told me to watch for vomiting and diarrhea but she hasn't been having any GI symptoms at all other than loss of appetite, so I don't think that's the problem.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I hope it's REALLY nothing... but her symptoms reminded me of this thread...

http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/18557-jacks-mystery-illness.html

Please keep us posted!!


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## CraftyGirl (Jan 29, 2012)

I hope Tesla is feeling better soon!! I know how stressful it is to be worried about our fur-kids. Hugs to you both!


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

I'm afraid of Addison's. I know how prevalent it can be in spoos. So far her only symptoms are lethargy and loss of appetite and odd muscle spasms on her back, so I'm hoping it's not. I'm wary of lyme disease as well but I haven't found a tick on her and no itching or hot spots, plus she's been on advantix for the last 3 weeks. 

When my boyfriend got home this afternoon she had a 5 minute bout of enthusiasm and ran over to greet him, but went back to lying in bed pretty quickly after that, the poor girl. Her tail is still wagging.

I did get her to eat some more a while ago. I was wondering if it was the food - we switched to buffalo blue puppy food about 2 weeks ago, and she'd been doing fine on it. But now she's taking treats like liver and chicken, but not her kibble. I went out and bought a sample pack of arcana grasslands just to see if she'd eat it, and she took a few from my hand. Not gobbling any significant amounts though, still.

Does anyone with experience with Addison's know how they diagnose it? Blood test, urine, feces? Any samples I should bring in to the vet's? How expensive is it to treat and how effective is the treatment? Luckily, I do have pet insurance with Trupanion so any reasonable amount is affordable.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Did you make a vet appointment? If it were me I would be in the vet now. I would rather be safe than sorry.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

PaddleAddict said:


> Did you make a vet appointment? If it were me I would be in the vet now. I would rather be safe than sorry.


I have an appointment for tomorrow afternoon. They didn't have any open slots today unless it was an emergency visit. I didn't think this was really an emergency though. I do have a 24hr emergency clinic in my area should she take a turn for the worse overnight.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I seriously hate when vets do that. We have no appointments available.... unless you want to pay more $$$, then we DO have something available. 

I used to work at a vet and we would never book up a day solid, we'd leave spaces throughout the day so patients could be seen if they called the same day... 

Anyway, glad you have an appointment tomorrow. I know how it feels to "just know" when something is not right with your dog even when it's not a full blown emergency.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Arcticfox said:


> Does anyone with experience with Addison's know how they diagnose it? Blood test, urine, feces? Any samples I should bring in to the vet's? How expensive is it to treat and how effective is the treatment? Luckily, I do have pet insurance with Trupanion so any reasonable amount is affordable.


Addison's can be diagnosed with an ACTH stimulation test--it is a blood test that the vet can do. My understanding is that an Addison's dog will need lifetime meds to replace whatever it is that the adrenal gland is not producing. They also need regular (monthly?) blood work. I have heard that this can cost $100/month, but I think that depends on how severe the case is, so maybe less if you have a mild case. With proper treatment, the dog can have a normal life. (Disclaimer: I am not a vet, so you should rely on what your vet says, not what I say!)

For more info:

Poodle Health Registry Breed/Disease Listing!

I think it is always a good idea to take a pee sample to the vet. "Midstream" as my vet says. Wait until she starts to pee and then put a clean (very clean) container under her. Amazing how they just keep on peeing. It is easier to get a pee sample than I thought it would be.

Hope it turns out to be Lymes disease or something else! But if it is Addison's at least you've got insurance! Let us know how it goes.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

*Good news and bad news*

Well, it's not Addison's.

Bad news is, we did some bloodwork and it turns out she's severely anemic. They suspect an autoimmune disease that's attacking her red blood cells - Immune Mediated Hemolytic Anemia (IMHA). Treatment is prednisone plus Asathioprine (both immuno suppressants) which she's starting today. We sent off another blood sample to a pathologist to get a confirmed diagnosis by tomorrow. She'll be on medications for at least 2 weeks and if everything is back to normal by then, we slowly wean her off. Prognosis is unsure though  Some dogs bounce right back but some fade very quickly. Tesla has youth in her favor I suppose, but that's also the weird part - IMHA is usually in older dogs. Some say vaccines and cancer can trigger it, but we're well outside the time frame for a vaccine reaction, and so far no signs of cancer. If anyone is interested in looking at her bloodwork (it's latin to me) results and abdominal x-rays, I'll gladly post them.

I was completely unprepared for this, I'd never even heard of it before, and I don't think it's commonly listed as a poodle disease. I guess it's time to fire up the old google engine and do some reading. Has anyone here dealt with this before?


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Any advice/experience with an immunosuppressed dog is also very much appreciated. I believe prednisone is also used to treat addison's, so perhaps those with addison's dogs could let me know what kind of side effects I should be expecting. I was warned about increased appetite and water intake + urination. Does it get bad enough that I need to take her out for potty breaks far more often? Every hour? Every 2 hours? Should I expect slips in potty training or accidents in the crate?

I'm also wondering if there are any foods that might help boost her RBC count. I know she's not anemic because of iron deficiency, but maybe boosting iron might help her to make more RBCs?

Also prednisone in such a young dog... I'm hoping she wont be on it for too long (they said several weeks to several months) but if she is, I'm worried about what it will do to her bone density, especially since her growth plates haven't closed. Should I be trying calcium supplements?


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

never mind


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I am so sorry. I don't know anything about this, but sending you and your girl a hug.


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## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

I am so sorry to read this. I lost a 3-year-old mini to IMHA. The Morris Animal Foundation is a good source of information. Look for a thread called Meisha's Hope. All good wishes for you and Tesla.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Hello
I was just curious what kibble you were feeding Tesla before you switched to Blue Buffalo two weeks ago? I have been reading of a lot of cases of IMHA in dogs that were eating the kibble that was part of the Diamond Recall.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

truelovepoodles said:


> Hello
> I was just curious what kibble you were feeding Tesla before you switched to Blue Buffalo two weeks ago? I have been reading of a lot of cases of IMHA in dogs that were eating the kibble that was part of the Diamond Recall.


She was on Nutro - Large breed puppy lamb and rice.

I don't think they are made by Diamond, at least I haven't seen it on any recall list. This is the first I've heard about the Diamond recall involving IMHA. I thought it was just samonella? Is that linked to IMHA?


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Hoping to hear that Tesla is better.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear about this diagnosis, but on the flip side glad you caught it quickly and have a diagnosis. From what I understand catching it quickly is really important. I do think this is seen in poodles, I know my trainer's spoo was diagnosed about a year ago. He is doing well from what I understand even though he was pretty darn sick when diagnosed. I don't know too much about the disease, though. Hopefully more knowledgable people will chime in here. Maybe start a new thread with IMHA in the title?


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Arcticfox said:


> She was on Nutro - Large breed puppy lamb and rice.
> 
> I don't think they are made by Diamond, at least I haven't seen it on any recall list. This is the first I've heard about the Diamond recall involving IMHA. I thought it was just samonella? Is that linked to IMHA?



I have not seen Nutro on the list of foods manufactured at the Diamond Plant. But Salmonella or any other infectious disease can be the catalyst in IMHA.

I have attached a website Immune Mediated Hemolytic Anemia


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

She's taken a turn for the worse this morning, she ate a little breakfast, threw it up. When we went outside to pee, she just lies down whenever we stop walking. I've managed to get her to drink more water and electrolyte solution, but still no food in her today  The vet called and suggested we take her to Toronto for 24hr care, and a blood transfusion. We had an appointment with the vet here at 3:30 today but the only ride to Toronto available (with Tesla) is at 2pm (I don't have a car).


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## Poodle Head (Sep 12, 2011)

Oh no! I hope they can help her in Toronto. You and your girl are in my thoughts. Please keep us posted.


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## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

I also hope Toronto is able to help. You and Tesla are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Another thread regarding this disease...

http://www.poodleforum.com/2-member-introductions/6267-immune-mediated-hemolytic-anemia.html


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Got an update from the boyfriend. They've arrived at the emergency vet. Vet sounds optimistic. She's getting a blood transfusion right now and they'll be keeping her for a few days. The vet office is in contact with Trupanion, and they are going to be paying the vet directly so I only have to worry about my portion of the bill (thank goodness). The main worry right now is that she might throw a clot from the blood transfusion, causing pulmonary embolism, but that's not very common. If she makes it through this crisis, we are looking good. 

I'm heading back to Toronto tomorrow morning, since I'm at work until 11pm tonight. Hopefully, we'll have good news.


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## Spooing Again (Dec 18, 2011)

Sending good thoughts your way, hoping for Tesla's quick and steadfast recovery.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

RBC count went from 12 to 20 after the transfusion (normal is 35). Vet is pretty happy about it. Apparently, the picky eaters are fed meatballs at the clinic. Being a poodle Tesla will probably figure out that refusing kibble = yummy meatballs :eyeroll: 

She was left with her blankie so she has something familiar to sleep on when she's left for the night. We were forwarned that there's no guarantee we'll get it back if she happens to pee on it and they put it through laundry. 

They are starting IV immunosuppressants in the morning, and keeping an eye out for emboli through the night. Estimated cost of care is $2800 Yikes.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

I visited Tesla at the vet today at lunch and dinner time. She was on an IV drip, and incredibly jaundiced, which is a new development. Her eyes, gums, and ears were all yellow, and you can see the yellow in her skin if you part her hair. Vet assured us that was normal - the liver is doing it's job of breaking down the dead RBCs. 

Her hematocrit is staying steady at 18% (checked 4pm today), just a slight dip from 20% (2200 last night) right after the transfusion. We'll see if it's gone up or down in the morning. She's on IV azathioprine as well, an immune suppressor. 

She seems to have perked up a little this afternoon, actually ate most of her supper and seemed more alert when I was visiting - holding her head up, following me around the room, etc. Boyfriend called the vet tech just a while ago and we were told she's nearly bouncy now  

Obviously, we're still not in the clear, she could still take a turn for the worse very quickly, but we are making good progress, and I'm optimistic.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Well wishes to Tesla! I'm sure seeing each other cheered you both up.


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## sgeorge (Jul 31, 2011)

I keep checking this thread to see if there is any news, so I'm glad to hear Tesla is feeling a little better! Hoping she will continue to improve :fingers-crossed:


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Thank you for the well wishes everyone! I will keep posting updates when I get the chance.

Here's a picture of the brave girl. She's making quite a few friends with the staff there.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Lots of prayers coming your way....


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Oops, the photo didn't attach









Her hematocrit is holding steady at 18% still, we are hoping for a rise tomorrow. Her appetite is back a little bit though, apparently she wolfed down breakfast, and even had some kibble along with the wet food. Vet says if her blood count goes up then we are ok to take her home! So my fingers are crossed...


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

We had a bit of a scare this morning, her bloodwork came in at 15%, but by noon it was back up to 17%. Hopefully it will keep rising. She's eating more now, even taking kibble which she completely refused before, her jaundice is clearing a little, and her urine is getting lighter.


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## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

I sure hope things improve for Tesla. This is not an easy disease to deal with. Fingers and paws crossed for you and your girl.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Her hematocrit was up to 23% this morning! Wooot We get to take her home tomorrow if it doesn't drop. 

Vet just told us that she is going to be on prednisone for the next 9 months (or some other drug that suppresses the immune system). Yikes, not sure what to expect there, from what I remember prednisone is a pretty nasty drug with a slew of side effects. 

She is also never allowed to have another vaccine in her life. Doc is happy to write whatever letters I need to get her into group training, or border crossing, etc. But I'm still worried - her last set of puppy vaccines were done at 14 weeks instead of 16. There's a small chance her mother's antibodies were still active at that point. I was hoping to get her 1 year shots before switching to titres from then on. Now, I think I'm still going to get her titred, just for peace of mind, since even if it shows that she has no immunity to whatever, I can't do anything about it


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Thanks you for these updates, I am certain they will be studied for the next dog with this problem. I am sending love your way.


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## Theo'sMom (Mar 23, 2011)

Yes, thanks for the updates. I hope she gets to go home today. Thank goodness you have insurance too!
I'm curious if tesla received the lepto and Lyme vaccines in addition to the parvo/distemper and rabies?


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## PoodleMomAnew (Dec 22, 2010)

I have been following your posts and am so happy and relieved to hear Tesla is doing better and hopefully coming home, poor baby and poor you!! She will do better with her mommy's love and familiar surroundings and bounce back no doubt. Prednisone does have a lot of side effects but if she needs it I imagine you don't have much choice. Will it be in a tapering dose do you know? That is often done and I believe less hard on the system. My prayers and positive, healing thoughts go out to you and Tesla!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I don't know how I am just seeing this thread now. I am so sorry your poodle has to go through this. From what I've heard, IMHA is a rough disease. :/ You are all in my thoughts.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Thanks everyone! Tesla was discharged on Thursday, I'd left the night before to go home because I had to go to work the next day. She's with my mom in Toronto now, and my mother is driving her back to me on Saturday. As far as I know, she's doing well, getting her appetite back but still none of the voracious eating that I hear should come with the prednisone. We're taking her for bloodwork as soon as she gets back on Saturday, just to make sure her numbers are still going up.

Apparently, while her PCV (Packed Cell Volume - percentage of RBCs by volume) has gone up, her actual red blood cell count has dipped quite a bit, and has only just started to rise - it was around 1.2 on Wed. Normal is 5. Her body has been compensating by making extra large red blood cells which is why her volume is up. Her RBC count has risen just a little bit in the last couple days though, so hopefully the trend will continue. 

She's on 30mg of prednisone twice a day right now, plus half tablets (not sure dose) of azathioprine. We will start slowly decreasing the prednisone 2 weeks after her blood count goes back to normal. This could take a week, or could take several months. The specialist wanted her on immunosuppressants for the next 9 months though, but decreasing dose along the way.


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## lrkellly (Jan 6, 2012)

Hi Arctic Fox,

I've been following this thread and I'm so happy to hear that she has been discharged and things are looking good. I cannot imagine how stressful this whole ordeal has been for you and for her. Keep us updated on how she does - Sprout and I are rooting for Telsa to get better soon!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am late seeing this and I apologize for not being here to support and encourage you more.  Glad to hear your girl is improving. She will be in my prayers until she is entirely out of the woods. So stressful on her humans! I am so sorry you have had to go through this!


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

I just saw this thread and I am so thankful she has been discharged and on the way home. My stomach was in knots reading this. I send my get well wishes and prayers to Tesla.


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## Tyler (Mar 9, 2009)

*Dang!*

I just found this thread, I'm so sorry I'm late to the pack.

Like others, I saw exactly what happened to Jack happening to Tesla. Jack turned out to be Adisonian.

Tesla is on a LOT of prednisone. Symptoms of "too much" include eating/drinking/peeing/pooping in excessive amounts, as I'm sure you know, loss of hair and thinning skin. It also causes elevated liver enzymes, which can eventually lead to liver problems.

In any case, we're sending prayers your and Tesla's way for a full and speedy recovery. And maybe a little economic windfall, I know that stuff is expensive.


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## Tyler (Mar 9, 2009)

*Prednisone experience....*



Arcticfox said:


> Any advice/experience with an immunosuppressed dog is also very much appreciated. I believe prednisone is also used to treat addison's, so perhaps those with addison's dogs could let me know what kind of side effects I should be expecting. I was warned about increased appetite and water intake + urination. Does it get bad enough that I need to take her out for potty breaks far more often? Every hour? Every 2 hours? Should I expect slips in potty training or accidents in the crate?
> 
> I'm also wondering if there are any foods that might help boost her RBC count. I know she's not anemic because of iron deficiency, but maybe boosting iron might help her to make more RBCs?
> 
> Also prednisone in such a young dog... I'm hoping she wont be on it for too long (they said several weeks to several months) but if she is, I'm worried about what it will do to her bone density, especially since her growth plates haven't closed. Should I be trying calcium supplements?


As I said in another post, yes, Tesla is on a lot of prednisone now. You should expect her to be drinking water like she's trying to drown. She will have accidents, unless you take her out often. She'll get used to the new rhythm of her body, but you need to expect it to be all off for a while.
My boy Jack has Addisons, and your situation sounds exactly like the symptoms Jack displayed. 
I can see where they're similar, an immune reaction destroying something not suposed to get destroyed.
I'm trying to get Jack's prednisone level down, as it makes him a completely food-centered dog, as well.
Again, I think we should have a place for support of these chronic problems here on the forum.
Prayers and thoughts of support to you and Tesla.


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