# Sensitive Tummies



## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

What is it with sensitive tummies? Are we breeding dogs to be more sensitive to food changes?


I have three dogs, two that can't seem to handle anything other than their standard daily kibble and one who can eat anything. 

I am a dog foodie-and we have used probiotics and tried so many different brands over the years. I feel like grain free gives us soft poos and any deviation from their regular kibble gives soft poos to really really loose stool.

I know it's not just me, dog owners all over are asking the same questions. 

I have done home cooking, dehydrated like The Honest Kitchen (a favorite of mine), canned, raw (the manufactured kind like Stella and Chewys) and kibble oh and the freshpet type stuff.

I only get solid poo for two out of the three if they are on kibble-and not grain free kibble.

Addison for example-we went to acana- explosive loose stools, she would fart and it would fly out. Oh I'm feeding too much? Ok, feed less,...the same... feed less...the same.... add pumpkin, a little improvement, add pro biotic, have a semi great stool and back to loose...

We switched to wellness puppy-the regular, not a grain free, nothing fancy. I wanted to add either canned or The Honest Kitchen to it. Every time I add The Honest Kitchen-she has loose poo. I use a probiotic too-still loose poo.... it is only solid if she is strickly on her kibble. 

I try to give treats-loose poo. Training night for classes is followed by loose poo due to training treats. I have to keep her attention somehow.

Gah, I love food, I want to feed them real food but it's just not happening. 

It's not just her it's also my oldest maltese (he's only five) he has the same issues! I feel bad just feeding kibble but I'm starting to think it's the best way to go.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I don't know, I always start my puppies out getting a wide variety of foods, and they have all had solid stomachs with a little bought of tummy trouble once every year or two.
Maybe you didn't start giving variety early enough?
Did you do freeze dried or frozen raw? Never tried the frozen, but in my experience the freeze dried makes for extremely solid poop - maybe too small and solid!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

No, the food has changed over the years! When I first had dogs growing up in the '80s, we fed them bags of food from the grocery store, like Kibbles 'n Bits. Those dogs had no digestive issues and lived to be 14-18. Nowadays we have all these high protein grain free foods like Acana, and they are good for a lot of dogs, but they also cause a lot of digestive problems. Our dogs are now on Blue Naturals salmon and potato and doing pretty well on it. I have found that most of the lower rated foods are actually much more easily tolerated (and I have tried just about everything on my dogs over the years).


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Most of the feeding problems with dogs stem from the commercial dog food industry. Pet foods are a multi-billion dollar industry with a lot of players. There is a *lot* of competition for the markets. Pet foods do not come under the wing of the FDA in the US and have no standards at all. Companies have been caught using addictive chemicals in foods to encourage continued sales. At the very least, foods contain too much fat, salt and sugar, as do human packaged foods. Too much grain additions to cut costs. Dye and flavor chemicals are used to make the foods more popular. The artificial scents and flavors are to attract the dogs and the colors are for the buyers sensibilities. The result has been a lot of sick and dead dogs over recent years. You can read a lot about raw feeding if you search here. I have been responsible for the feeding of a *large* number of working dogs in the past. I fixed on a *quality* working dog complete food kibble. I have been using the same kibble in Australia for 60 years. it is:
GREAT BARKO DOG FOOD 22kg | Laucke Mills

This food is not a food that a dog will *bolt*. It is only available in 22Kg bags. Grace grazes on it for most of a day. In addition she gets *small* left over portions of our meals. This food is used on cattle and sheep stations (ranches) all over Australia. It should be possible to find something similar in the States. Try stock food agents. It is cheaper than most high profile dog foods. Pet shops and vets will not stock it since the profit margin is too low.
My working dogs (GSD police dogs) got this food and 2lb of raw red meat each week. In the case of puppies in training the red meat was in the form of treats.

Scouring (loose stools) is common with many brands of dog foods especially canned ones. Many dogs do not tolerate *too* swift a change in foods. I have found this *only* in high profile commercial foods and believe it to be due to additives in the foods.

Do not believe anything you read on packaged pet foods or their advertising blurb.
Go see your nearest K9 police unit. Ask at a military base where dogs are used. Ask what they feed? Ask at shelters with a good reputation. Ask a sheep rancher. His dogs are worth a *lot* of money to him. When you find a good *reliable* food stick to it.

Eric


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

With a maltese, I would certainly look at MVD. It is SO common in the breed and I have read that a large percentage of them have it but it goes undiagnosed. With MVD they do much better on lower protein, so the food with grain may be better because generally speaking, they have lower protein.


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

Thanks for your responses everyone. As for introducing foods at an early age-I have been doing that with Addison with little to no success but I don't remember if I did it with Rocky (my malt with the issues). 

It is possible Rocky has IBD-the vet has done everything except taking a sample of intestinal tissues and did tell me that if he has another episode that gets bad that will be our next step. So far on just his kibble he's holding steady. Still, I'm not able to play with his food much or add anything new.

I totally fell for the hype of all the grain free and fancy foods in the past but I am realizing they are not all they are cracked up to be.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Yes, sometimes there is a reason why a young dog does not do well on food, no matter which type you try. With my passed PWD, it turned out he had chronic pancreatitis and later we found out he had Addison's disease. Once he was properly diagnosed, we knew what foods to avoid and which would be most helpful to him. Until then, we were clueless on what to feed him.

IBD is another problem that can go undiagnosed for a long time and can cause all kinds of food problems.

Best of luck finding out how to help Rocky.


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## Motion (Oct 27, 2015)

I would see if you have a dog nutrition specialist near you. If something in grain free kibbles is irritating your dogs stomach its possible that they could help you find out what, or rule out an underlying cause of the stomach issues. 

When you home cook did you include grains, cooked veggies, calcium supplements? Sometimes these can make a difference in the poops. Some dogs will do better with some grains in their diet even if only because of the impact of grains on the pH of the digestive system.

The wellness core line is pretty decent food, so even if you can't feed much less I'm glad that at least you can feed a relatively high quality food.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I feed a couple different brands and buy a different flavor within one of those brands each time I buy food. I also alternate between grain free and grain inclusive. I mix in various canned foods, freeze dried raw foods, yogurt, cottage cheese, etc. I feed my dogs a little bit of whatever I eat (from doritos to pita chips to steak) and I buy all sorts of different treats. All good stools here.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Hans does really well on higher protein, higher fat, grain free and low/no starch foods like Wysong and Ziwipeak. He also gets a variety of canned and raw foods. If I start feeding a lower protein, higher carb diet (even if it is still a "good" food) I see a noticeable difference in him - softer stools, less energy, he just seems "off" and also starts to get less enthusiastic about eating.

On the other hand, my parents have a dog that has very loose stools any time they try grain free foods. She doesn't have any allergies to grain, so they've given up switching at this point. Hans has a sister that is the same way I think. Some dogs just seem like they don't do well on some of the higher protein grain free foods. 

I'm not sure if the fact that Hans is very active is also a factor - maybe he needs all that protein and fat (Ziwipeak is pretty high fat) that he's getting because he works so hard.


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

FireStorm said:


> Hans does really well on higher protein, higher fat, grain free and low/no starch foods like Wysong and Ziwipeak. He also gets a variety of canned and raw foods. If I start feeding a lower protein, higher carb diet (even if it is still a "good" food) I see a noticeable difference in him - softer stools, less energy, he just seems "off" and also starts to get less enthusiastic about eating.
> 
> On the other hand, my parents have a dog that has very loose stools any time they try grain free foods. She doesn't have any allergies to grain, so they've given up switching at this point. Hans has a sister that is the same way I think. Some dogs just seem like they don't do well on some of the higher protein grain free foods.
> 
> I'm not sure if the fact that Hans is very active is also a factor - maybe he needs all that protein and fat (Ziwipeak is pretty high fat) that he's getting because he works so hard.


I totally hear you there. One of my maltese really can eat just about anything-but he gets bored quickly and wants something new every couple of days. Addison and Rocky though  it's just a no go. 

I guess I am just at a point where I am tired of trying new things since I've been dealing with it with Rocky for 5 years now, and Addison seems to be going the same way-with a sensitive tummy. 

I'm currently feeding Wellness and Addison has formed poos, that are soft on it. Makes it difficult for cleaning up when we go on walks. If I deviate at all from the wellness puppy kibble-I get puddles. She's been checked out at the vet several times since I brought her home and they have checked her stool twice for parasites. It makes me sad because, like her mama, she loves food


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

I agree, all the fancy grain-free foods aren't the magical foods they are purported to be. 
Jack has a TERRIBLE belly. I tried all kinds of food (raw was complete cannon butt) HOmecooked was better but honestly I don't have time to cook it or make sure it's balanced... Kibbles.. meh. Canned.. some terrible cannon butt, others ok.

It used to KILL me to admit this BUT here goes: Jack eats either Science Diet canned or dry, or Purina beyond canned or dry. 

Ack! 

He does so well. NO belly misery whatsoever. Nice skin and coat, and did I mention, no belly misery?

Can I explain it away with food? I dunno, maybe. But we are also putting pesticides on our dogs monthly, vaccinating, exposing them to whatever cleaning chemicals, etc. All this might be adding up and making their bodies struggle with food, too. 

Trying to get Echo (pwd) to finish up her fromm lamb/lentil. Her poos are formed but huge, and HUGE. lol. 

Jack's poo on beyond plus some science diet canned currently? nice and firm, no odor. No explosive dire-rear? No arched back from a painful tummy and shaking because he feels terrible? Priceless. <shrugs>


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Commercial food has wayyyyy too much carbohydrate. Dogs aren't designed to digest carbohydrates to the extent commercial food demands. Actually, dogs require no carbohydrates according to the National Research Council, the world's leading authority on canine nutrition. Dogs need lots of protein and fat. I think over the years, dog food has changed and not necessarily for the better. Dogs have to have a chance to get use to a new way of eating. Their enzymes need to be fired up, for example when switched to a raw diet from a kibble diet.


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

Shamrockmommy said:


> I agree, all the fancy grain-free foods aren't the magical foods they are purported to be.
> Jack has a TERRIBLE belly. I tried all kinds of food (raw was complete cannon butt) HOmecooked was better but honestly I don't have time to cook it or make sure it's balanced... Kibbles.. meh. Canned.. some terrible cannon butt, others ok.
> 
> It used to KILL me to admit this BUT here goes: Jack eats either Science Diet canned or dry, or Purina beyond canned or dry.
> ...



I wasn't going to post this but you made me feel so much better-we just ordered some Science Diet to switch our dogs to because we have tried just about everything else. I was afraid to post it because I've been that dog food snob who freaks out over the big Dog food makers and used to always post about how horrible they were.

It's like I went full circle. I have been obsessed with dog food for years and would talk down about Science Diet, Royal Canin, Purina and anything else you can find at a grocery store....

I shouldn't be surprised though, I'm really good at sticking my foot in my mouth. It's like, every time I start to get too big for my britches, life has to throw it all back at me and take me down a peg. Haha.. oh well...


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Shell, I think we are chatting on dogfoodchat, actually! I went over there because I felt SO guilty for having him on these foods (yet he is doing better on them than anything else). 

Interesting because I thought the same thing about going full circle.

I used to spend HOURS, DAYS researching food. I can tell you about nutrient profiles, I know what the ingredient and supplement names are for, everything. I can recognize foods by their kibble shapes LOL. Obsessed is the word I'm looking for.

I wasted so much time on that! I should've been taking my dogs for walks, or playing with them instead of worrying so much on food. 

Now, I don't care what people think of the foods I feed. I've tried all the gimmicky foods. Time to just leave well enough alone and enjoy my woofers for as long as they've got (also learned there's no holy grail for dog longevity, either).


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Science Diet I/D worked very well for a couple of my parents' dogs. Whatever works best for your dog is the best diet


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Shell, I think we are chatting on dogfoodchat, actually! I went over there because I felt SO guilty for having him on these foods (yet he is doing better on them than anything else).
> 
> Interesting because I thought the same thing about going full circle.
> 
> ...


Haha! We are! And we seem to be kindred spirits because I was the exact same way with dog food! My husband got to the point that when I would talk about it his eyes would glaze over or he would just roll his eyes and leave the room!

Oh and the lists I made! LOL it seems so silly now


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

We are definitely dog food nerds!!

Just for funsies, I gave Echo Beyond last night topped with her usual scoop of wet science diet. No belly upset, and even though it was the same amount of food as her usual Fromm Lamb/Lentil, it was about HALF the size of stool! 

This is something to celebrate, because Fromm poo (even the grain inclusive like Gold or Classic) is huge, but formed and soft, so it smooshes in the grass like you described earlier. I HATE that on walks, trying to get the smear off someone's lawn! 

Today's poo was easy to pick up and left no trace. 

So. Why not, I guess.


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

Shamrockmommy said:


> We are definitely dog food nerds!!
> 
> Just for funsies, I gave Echo Beyond last night topped with her usual scoop of wet science diet. No belly upset, and even though it was the same amount of food as her usual Fromm Lamb/Lentil, it was about HALF the size of stool!
> 
> ...


This is great news  I am glad to hear it! Yay for firm poop!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

How are they doing on Science diet now?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Hill's Science Diet Adult Dog Food | Review | Rating | Recalls

Look at the ingredients...the distribution of protein, fat and carbs. Holy cow! You'd think dogs were herbivores looking at that...those animals that graze in fields of grain and never look at a rabbit. Dogs are not meant to eat all that carbohydrate. I don't know what the answer is. But if you feed a raw diet, you can regulate the amount of bone which will firm up poop like nobody's business. If you don't like that idea, what about feeding just raw green tripe for one meal? That is perfectly balanced (calcium/phosphorus) and has loads of probiotics and digestive enzymes that might help. 

Have you heard of this dog food? I've heard that for allergies, kangaroo is good. I don't know that your dog has allergies though. But here's some info. Dogs generally need a pretty high protein, moderate fat diet and S.D. is almost devoid of protein. Yikes! 

90% Recipe's | KOHA

Wild Kangaroo Entree | KOHA


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Have you looked into this food? I just noticed it on another thread. Castor and Pollux Ultramix Grain-Free Dog Food | Review | Rating | Recalls It looks a lot better than many commercial food. It still has a lot of carbs, but still...less than most. Read the comments...seems a lot of people had success with it.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

I have tried all the fancy foods. 
I have fed all sorts of raw diets, cooked, premixes, dehydrated. Been there, done that.

I respect your journey to feed your dogs the best way you know how. 

Take a look at my Jack- feed him raw- poo'splosions, terrible belly pain, eventually he poops blood and winds up with vet visits. 

I've tried honest kitchen, he won't eat. I've tried Fromm, he will eat some of the flavors but has diarrhea. And once he knows a food bothers his belly he just will not eat it (can you blame him?)

He spent months in misery of me trying to feed him "better" foods, grain free, you name it. 
He's finally stable with no belly pain, no diarrhea on science diet and purina beyond. Two brands that I've been known to completely bash over the years. I can't explain it. In my mind the logical thing would be a natural diet. He just cannot handle it. 

Who am I to deny him a quiet, healthy belly because of my beliefs?

Thank you for your recommendations, but I was checking in to see how Shell's pups are doing with the food change.


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

Well, it's working  I mean it is still early but we have firm poop for the first time ever with Addy. Rocky's coat looks like it's starting to fill in a bit and it's shiny...but that could be in my head too, I mean I think it is kind of early to notice that kind of difference. Addy is scratching less.

I am waiting to see if rocky has any issues once he has been on it a while, like chewing his feet or anything so we will see but so far I am sooo pleased with the results!!

I am loving science diet right now and wish we would have tried it earlier.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

The trick is seeing how they do longterm  

Jack is doing great with his beyond dry, sd wet combo. Not one episode of dire-rear or cannon butt (that one is worse!). He's happy. I'm happy!

Echo has a long ways to go to finish her big bag of Fromm Lamb/Lentil. I'm excited for her to try something different (either SD or Beyond or maybe Royal Canin- she finished up Jack's Rx dental Royal Canin once and the digestion was awesome!).


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Hill's Science Diet Adult Dog Food | Review | Rating | Recalls
> 
> Look at the ingredients...the distribution of protein, fat and carbs. Holy cow! You'd think dogs were herbivores looking at that...those animals that graze in fields of grain and never look at a rabbit. Dogs are not meant to eat all that carbohydrate. I don't know what the answer is. But if you feed a raw diet, you can regulate the amount of bone which will firm up poop like nobody's business. If you don't like that idea, what about feeding just raw green tripe for one meal? That is perfectly balanced (calcium/phosphorus) and has loads of probiotics and digestive enzymes that might help.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your suggestions. We are no strangers to Caster and Pollux-I've mentioned before that dog food has been an issue for us for over 5 years now.  I have tried just about every boutique brand out there and it's simply not working. 

I completely understand your view on science diet and a year ago I would have agreed with you, but I have learned a lot over the years dealing with dogs that just do not do well on the fancy brands. They just don't.

As for raw, I feel if done correctly it can be great-but home made raw is not an option for my household. Yes, we have tried pre made raw...

It is very kind of many of you to suggest alternatives but at this point I am not looking for suggestions. Had you walked a mile in these shoes, dealing with our issues-you would understand, but I hope that you never have to.  

I am 100% convinced that the overpriced brands with the fancy ingredient panels are just not all they are cracked up to be. If your dogs are doing great on it then I am so glad for you. I would feel wonderful is my dogs did great on something like Fromm (my favorite kibble!) but pretty ingredient panels are not keeping my dogs healthy.

The foods I am feeding now, I would have been horrified to feed even less than a year ago but for whatever reason-they are working. Science Diet is working, it is not trash, it is not junk, it is not nasty-it is food that is making my dogs healthier than they were. How does it work with an ingredient panel that looks like that? I don't know, but it does. Will it last long term? Only time will tell  I sure hope it does though.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm glad your babies are feeling better, shell!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm sorry that I offended anyone in my exuberance of learning about nutrition. I can't understand it...why some dogs are so unable to digest real food. Sometimes I wonder if a handful of dogs haven't gotten so use to eating cereal that they can't eat what they really should be eating. But I digress, who am I to deny? If your dog doesn't have cannon butt, that's a real plus. I agree that one has to feed what keeps their dog healthy and comfortable. If this raw diet caused my dogs terrible problems that wouldn't get better, I'd be switching to whatever works too. As it is, they aren't sensitive and do well on it. So, good that you found something they can eat.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I think it is wonderful that you have found something that is working! I am a true believer in you have to find what works for YOUR dog. If that is SD then it is what it is, it is your choice and you know what is best for your dog. 

Honestly, like you said, if they haven't walked in your shoes....


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I'm sorry that I offended anyone in my exuberance of learning about nutrition. I can't understand it...why some dogs are so unable to digest real food. Sometimes I wonder if a handful of dogs haven't gotten so use to eating cereal that they can't eat what they really should be eating. But I digress, who am I to deny? If your dog doesn't have cannon butt, that's a real plus. I agree that one has to feed what keeps their dog healthy and comfortable. If this raw diet caused my dogs terrible problems that wouldn't get better, I'd be switching to whatever works too. As it is, they aren't sensitive and do well on it. So, good that you found something they can eat.



I was where you are about 10 years ago. The dogs I had then did perfectly on raw diets (I used either Volhard or Sojos premix). Although, there was the occasional overnight poo-splosions which I ignored. 

I can't explain it either. It's weird to me, everything I've been "taught" (mostly on forums Lol) about foods. 

Time for a change. 

Plus, well you've all heard Jack's story. I want to feed him something "better." but then i stop and think. Everything better I've tried has caused misery. Not worth it to me to put him through that any more than I have to.

If something changes, I'll have to search again for something suitable, but for now, it works. :eating:


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I'm sorry that I offended anyone in my exuberance of learning about nutrition. I can't understand it...why some dogs are so unable to digest real food. Sometimes I wonder if a handful of dogs haven't gotten so use to eating cereal that they can't eat what they really should be eating. But I digress, who am I to deny? If your dog doesn't have cannon butt, that's a real plus. I agree that one has to feed what keeps their dog healthy and comfortable. If this raw diet caused my dogs terrible problems that wouldn't get better, I'd be switching to whatever works too. As it is, they aren't sensitive and do well on it. So, good that you found something they can eat.


I don't think you offended anyone  I understand your suggestions come from a passion about nutrition and I appreciate that you are interested in what is best for my pets!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Also, Poodlebeguiled, you didn't offend me 
I know you are very passionate about feeding your pups and excited to share.

<3


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

:hug:

I am glad! Thank you for understanding.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Although, today, after having sung the praises of Beyond and Science Diet, Jack was back to his typical pickiness. 

Sigh.

Jack. You're killing me!


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## West U (Jul 30, 2014)

I just got a 3 year old Corgi. I have had her for a week, started her off with 2 or 3 turkey necks, then some tripe treats. She had loose stool and I gave her some pumpkin. She stills gets some kibble. She has adapted very well. My Lola has been eating raw chicken, chicken feet, turkey necks, veges since she was 3 months. Very rarely she gets loose stool or has other digestive prblems. I am very conservative on imunizations. I believe just like Human diets, our pets (horses, too) diets / foods are more toxic than 20 or 30 years sgo, hence more digestive problems, allergies, cancer, etc. Too many crazy supplements too with no idea about correct dosage. How about all the flea topical and heart worms stuff we give?


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Even if you don't want to jump on a raw or home cooked program for your dog, I think a few turkey/chicken necks or backs per week are worth trying for your dog's dental health. I do believe in grain free for Standards, but fortunately there are many options in all of the price ranges for grain free. So many more protein options too.


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