# Color confusion..What is a "white"?!



## PammiPoodle

I can't seem to figure out the distinction between white and cream! I know that creams can fade to complete white eventually and still be considered a cream, but what about the cream colored puppies who fade to white within the first few weeks, or are already white at the follicle at birth? Lumi came to me with tan colored tips, but was already pure white on every part of her body. So, is she a rapidly fading cream, or a white? I also understand that there are two types of whites; ivory white and ice white. So, could it be that those who are the ivory type are, in fact, rapidly fading creams? Then again, Lumi has two or three black/silver hairs over her shoulder blades. I believe this means that she's an ice white, rather than an ivory which may be indicated by sparse or random apricot colored hairs. She also has some apricot tipped hairs throughout her body, which I assume to be new growth since she blown her coat recently. These hairs are apricot for about 1/2 inch at the tips, and then continue to grow white. They don't appear to darken her coat anywhere, and are quite hard to see unless you're looking for them. One time she got an injury on her head and lost some hair, and when it grew back it began the same way, apricot tips that turned to white. So, it seems her natural growth cycle starts at apricot, like her puppy hair, but remains white like her adult hair. What color is she? I groom dogs and have seen her next to many a white dog, she doesn't look cream next to any of them. She's bright white! I've read the Arpeggio site and others, and still am unsure. The topic has just come back to my mind when I shared a picture of my new white puppy (who also looks cream at 4 weeks as Lumi did), and one of my knowledgeable handler friends told me she's a cream. I like whites for the blank canvas for hair dye, but I know cream dyes well, too, and if she lightens to the same white as Lumi it doesn't really matter to me what we call it! But, I just wish I could understand the difference between these two colors! : P Any input or thoughts would be appreciated! Here are some pictures of Lumi and my new puppy for discussion. : )

Here is Lumi at 5 weeks.










Here she is at 8. (Day after I brought her home!!) The color at this point is only at the tips.










This was around 4-5 months.










This is around 8 months.










Here she is around a year old. The only picture I could find where she wasn't at least partly dyed!










The center puppy is my new girl, Amala, at 10 days old.










Here she is at 3 weeks old.










And here she is now, at 4 weeks old.


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## outwest

I am no expert by any means, but I would call both your girls cream. Lumi has the proper points for a cream and your new girl has brown points. BOTH are light creams. Your new pup will likely end up pretty white, too. My sister in laws cream faded to almost stark white at around 8 months old:
chili at 12 weeks old on left:








here he is at about 5 months old. He has a touch of cream on his ears.








Here he is a couple weeks ago at 18 months old. Sometimes you can see a hint of cream, but overall he is pure white:









For comparison, here is my girl Bonnie as a puppy. She was registered as a cream because her muzzle was white and it was assumed she would turn white eventually. 








At 5 months (about the same age as Chili's 5 month pic):








As she grew she developed into a light apricot. She is much darker than Chili and clearly apricot, but lighter than a full apricot. 









Here is one of Bonnie's sisters who started cream and turned white:









There is a gradation from white to cream to apricot. Very few puppies are born pure white, but some are. Those are usually the whitest whites. If you looked back in their pedigree you would likely see no creams or browns or apricots, just black and white. 

Your new girl is such a light cream, shell be white very soon, too.


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## PammiPoodle

Thank you, Outwest! So, do you take it that only the puppies that are born pure white are the true whites? If that's the case, it would seem many breeders are mis-labeling their puppies. During my months-long search for a white puppy, I found many cream-colored youngsters being sold as whites. And I'm not talking bybs or pet-stores, I think I've been pretty selective with the breeders I considered. In fact, Lumi was sold to me as white, and I'm told Amala is white (they're from the same breeder). Maybe it's a grey area in the breeding world, too? What one breeder considers a normal amount of color on a white puppy, another breeder would consider a cream! It's the only color that it seems the more websites I read and breeders I talk to, the more confused I get! : P


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## N2Mischief

Misha is 4 months old and still has some cream on her ears. I recently asked her breeder and I was told you look on the inside of the ear leather close to the ear canal and it will tell you what color the puppy is. She says Misha will be all white when she grows up. She is getting whiter and whiter. Both of her parents are white.


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## The Opera Poodle

Thankful this thread cleared up that I am not the only one confused about the cream/white thing. My new pup is listed as cream on his AKC. I saw the mother who looked very white. When the breeder gave me all the paperwork, I was surprised that the Dam had also been registered as cream. I guess all I can do is wait and see what Sherlock will end up as. Must say I love the color of his ears now.


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## PammiPoodle

And I'm glad I'm not the only one! : ) I wonder why if most other colors are named for what they clear to (blues, silvers, cafe au laits), then why aren't more creams called whites if that's what the end up becoming? I'm not referring to those creams who are simply very light and appear white until seen next to a white, I'm talking about dogs who end up white-white! Or perhaps, if they are creams, do breeders consider them a "bad cream" like a black that fades is a "bad black"? Should a cream hold that buttery color throughout life? I'd love some breeders opinions, too, if there are any here! I've read that it's hard to breed for cream since they're hard to predict, so there aren't generally cream lines. Creams just show up occasionally when breeding in their spectrum. Perhaps this is why it's a bit confusing, because there aren't as many breeders specializing in cream to share their wisdom!


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## KidWhisperer

I'm just bumping this thread, because I too have the same question about Sammi.


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## peppersb

KidWhisperer said:


> I'm just bumping this thread, because I too have the same question about Sammi.


What color was Sammi when she was born? And when she was young? I'm curious about this too. I spoke to one breeder who said that whites are born white, but creams are an apricot color when born. But another breeder said that she's never seen a pup that was born white--they all have at least a little color when they are born. I'm interested in any opinions or experience on this.

As many of you know, I am plannning to breed Cammie. She is cream, but has some whites in her pedigree. So I am expecting that we will have both cream and white puppies (and pups in the black-blue-silver range, but that's another story). I've seen photos of some pups that look like they are almost white when they are born. I am guessing that we'll get some that look like Cammie (she was a light apricot when she was a baby) and some that are a lot lighter. But I'm not sure how light a puppy should be to be registered as white.

Cammie is getting a lot lighter. There still is some color in her coat, but it is sometimes hard to see in a photo. If she is against a white background like snow, you can definitely see that she is still cream, not white. Here are some photos of her that show the color change. Photos are 7 weeks, 3 months, 10 months and the last two are at almost 23 months.

What about those of you that have dogs that are registered white? Were they born white?


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## outwest

Cami is so grown up looking!  

I don't think you can always tell what color a cream will end up. Some turn white like Chili did and some stay cream and some get light apricot. I would call Cami a cream, but she is a really pretty light cream- yummy.

If you look at the picture of Chili he was really apricot colored as a little puppy and he is so white as an young adult. He and Bonnie started out the same color.


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## PammiPoodle

Here's Amala now, at 5 weeks.










I'll keep posting as she grows up so she can be a sort of "case study" of whites (or creams?), and hopefully as the thread resurfaces we might get some more input. : ) I consider my girls whites, as that's what their breeder calls them, and Lumi was growing only white hair before 8 weeks. I expect the same for Amala, but we will see! : )


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## outwest

Well, she is going to be very white.  And, I bet you are excited to get her!


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## Dawnsohma

POODLE COAT COLORS: WHITE & CREAM

this might help you decide what they are.


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## PammiPoodle

Thank you for the sight, Dawnsohma! : ) I don't mean to misdirect this thread. I'm more curious about how whites are distinguished from creams in general. My girls are whites, but I thought they might be relevant to this discussion since, like many whites and creams, they start off with some cream in their hair, and end up white. Maybe the distinction is just age. A dog who stops growing cream hair by 8 weeks is a white, whereas one that doesn't stop growing cream until 18 months is a cream? But I still don't get it, since they both end up white! : P 

Maybe the answer is simpler than it seems. Perhaps there is actually no way to tell as puppies whether the cream will fade. I imagine some dogs, like mine for example, show white roots at birth and are easily identified as whites below the evident cream. While some dogs do not have white roots and so are considered cream, but then surprise both breeder and owner when they turn white later in life! Maybe it's that simple, creams that will turn white and creams that will hold can't be identified as puppies. Mix that with the fact that many creams lighten significantly, but aren't actually white, then it's darn hard to tell which adult dogs have turned white, and which are just very pale and it just makes the most sense to continue to consider them all creams as they were labeled as pups! Maybe one day will discover a key color or tint difference that indicates whether or not the cream will last! : )


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## outwest

I believe you are right. I don't think you can predict 100% when they are little. Most poodles fade in color, but not all of them do. A small percentage darken like mine did, but I don't believe there is any way to predict that. You have to look at the pedigree to get a good idea of what will happen, but it isn't guaranteed.


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## KidWhisperer

To the layman, Sammi is "that big white poodle", even though she is registered as cream. Initially, Sammi was the same color as my very-light carpet. She was the lightest of the litter of creams (more an ivory color) which I thought was beautiful. But she really lost most of her creaminess early on, and looks white in the sun to me. Unfortunately, we had little-to-no snow this winter to compare her to. I always wonder what colors her siblings turned out to be.


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## Agidog

So hard to know at birth especially when poodles can take up to 3 years to finally get their full adult coat and colour. but if breeders know their stuff and are breeding correctly for a particular colour gene then they will definately get creams/apricots/cafe au lait / whites etc.

Imagine my horror when suddenly my beutiful silver girl started producing heavy guard hairs jet black thankfully her dads owner reassurred e that this was normal and as they grow out they turn silver, although with silvers if they injure themselves the area where wool is lost will grow back black and stay black 

There is an excellent website which discusses colour genetics.
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/poodle.html


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## SnorPuddel

Many breeders will register creams as whites, which makes it is quite hard to look at pedigrees and really know what is behind the dog.
I had a well respected white breeder tell me that there is no such thing as an ice white in North America anymore. This breeder registers all whites or creams as white.
Many creams will whiten as they get older. I hope my cream puppy will stay cream as she gets older.


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## pinkteaji

Shelton was labeled as a cream from the service organization he was from. When he came I believed it too although he was white mostly all over except for his ears (which were a slight cream color). Now (at 22 months) he's completely white (black lips, black eyes, but not black toe nails).


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## Sookster

This is a great question, but I don't know that there really is an answer. 

I will say that most of the "white" poodles I've seen called "ice white", when stood next to my parti's "white" legs, looked as cream as any cream poodle I've ever seen and they definitely were not truly white. I really wonder if the only way to get ice white is to have a lack of pigment, like the white on a parti. 

pinkteaji's Shelton is one of the whitest poodles I've ever seen. You should post a picture of him in full sunlight and show him off! Question: I know he has jet black points, but is his skin black or pink?


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## pinkteaji

Correction: Shelton does indeed have black nails LOL. I always forget that! Also, Sheltons skin is pink all over. Idk what "type" of white he is. 

This is Shelton (white poodle) in natural sunlight when he's clean. No filters. All taken with my phone























Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Lou

wow this is so cool how much they can fade... Lou has not faded , actually I think she has darkened... I wonder about that... 

Here she is early and (now-signature and yard)

I know she is not white or cream, but the fading topic made me curious about it

pictures 1, 2 and 5 she was 4 months old or less
the other ones 8-10 months old. 

She is now 11 months old.


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## Lou

peppersb said:


> What color was Sammi when she was born? And when she was young? I'm curious about this too. I spoke to one breeder who said that whites are born white, but creams are an apricot color when born. But another breeder said that she's never seen a pup that was born white--they all have at least a little color when they are born. I'm interested in any opinions or experience on this.
> 
> As many of you know, I am plannning to breed Cammie. She is cream, but has some whites in her pedigree. So I am expecting that we will have both cream and white puppies (and pups in the black-blue-silver range, but that's another story). I've seen photos of some pups that look like they are almost white when they are born. I am guessing that we'll get some that look like Cammie (she was a light apricot when she was a baby) and some that are a lot lighter. But I'm not sure how light a puppy should be to be registered as white.
> 
> Cammie is getting a lot lighter. There still is some color in her coat, but it is sometimes hard to see in a photo. If she is against a white background like snow, you can definitely see that she is still cream, not white. Here are some photos of her that show the color change. Photos are 7 weeks, 3 months, 10 months and the last two are at almost 23 months.
> 
> What about those of you that have dogs that are registered white? Were they born white?


beautiful poodle! it lightened so much! and it turned out gorgeous!


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## peppersb

Lou -- Thanks for sharing. It is so interesting to see how different dogs fade or don't fade. Lou and Cammie were not that far apart in color when they were pups, but it looks like Lou got a little darker and Cammie got a lot lighter. One difference that I notice between puppy photos of Cammie and Lou is that Lou was all one color, but Cammie had darker ears. I wonder if the darker ears is typical of creams that will fade, while the all one color is typical of apricots that will hold? Just a theory. Was Lou registered as apricot? And what did your breeder tell you about what color Lou was and would be? My breeder told me to expect that Cammie would fade to a lighter cream. 

Here are a few more photos of Cammie as a puppy.


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## Lou

Thanks for the response. The breeder told me she was an apricot, but I remember when I first saw her (3 months old) she look like a dark cream with a light hint or orangy color (kinda like the last picture I uploaded) And yes, her whole body is the same apricot shade. Her pedigree also says apricot. And when I bought Lou there were 2 puppies left. Lou and her small sister Cookie which was cream, her whole self was cream  
That is a very very interesting theory, from what I noticed darker apricot ears and lighter colored body poodles usually do change color with time... at least the ones I have seen here... and I go through a lot of the photos, because I LOVE photos!

Your photos are very cute! How old is Cammie?


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## peppersb

Cammie will be 2 this week. April 19.

More photos of Cammie as an adult are here:

http://www.smallstandardpoodles.com/index_files/cammie.htm


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