# Is this the standard for breeders?



## g8dhorse7 (Oct 30, 2009)

I inquired about a standard puppy and I received this response:

" She has not been groomed, as she is only 2 months old. We sell many of our puppies to show homes, and to be shown they cannot be groomed before 1 year of age, as it messes up their coat. Knowing this, we do not groom our puppies before they go. We do not house train or crate train our puppies, as we find it confuses them more when they go to their new homes and their new family does it differently. "

I didn't know that grooming, ie, shaving face, feet and tail and tidying up body would "mess" up the coat. In what way?

Also, is the standard for crate/house training....to not do it at all? I see a lot of breeders who have house breaking in the process before the puppy leaves.

Thanks for your inputs!!!!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

OH my word NO! All of the breeders I've talked to started around 4-5 weeks shaving face feet and tail and they all got regular bathes. On top of that most will start housebreaking the puppy early so that they start out life in their new home knowing what's expected. I'd stay away from this person.


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## g8dhorse7 (Oct 30, 2009)

That's what I thought! It just didn't sound right to me. But, I don't know anything about showing so I thought I'd ask.

Thanks!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I don't think that showing should have anything to do with it. Mind PMing me the breeder's info?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

By 8 weeks my puppies have had their faces and tail-base shaved at least twice and their feet usually once. They have been bathed and dryed at least twice, but usually around 4 times. They are brushed every couple of days. 

I start crate training around 7 weeks, but my puppies have a crate in their whelping box from the beginning so they are very familiar with sleeping in it.

I admittedly do not have a great house training system since my puppies are raised in my family room and I do not have a dog door. I'm going to work on this for my next litter.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Honestly I don't think it sounds as horrible as it does honest. Not that I am agreeing all with her email is right.

Why? Most puppies are not potty trained. They go to their new owners and they are trained by the owner right? -A lot of breeders will say they may have started it but in some cases they have not. IMO. They may monitor it of course.

Also, many times the pups stay with their litter mates for socialization in gated areas, pens, I don't see pictures or hear of them being crate trained unless they are a bit older - Just my experience in speaking with a few breeders which is not that much. 

The grooming - I am guessing as she said most of her clients have been show people and maybe this is a bigger request the breeder gets. I think she may have exaggerated her knowledge and purpose there. Now bathing, I didn't see that in the email - that dont seem right...I cannot imagine not being bathed AND not being potty trained - I would ask the breeder to elaborate on that as well as trimming the pup.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think they should at least have exposure to all of these things. If not when that puppy goes to it's new home and has to get started with them, they are going to freak out because they aren't used to it. If you are willing to work with them, great but not a lot of people are.


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## g8dhorse7 (Oct 30, 2009)

I'm looking at several other puppies and when I asked about pics of a clean face they were more than willing to clean face, feet, tail, etc. I don't think I've ever purchased a poodle that wasn't clean when I picked them up.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

So they didn't bath them?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

WOW that sounds weird. 

:wacko::wacko:


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

Sounds super shady and weird to me. I can't imagine how a puppy would look by a year old with no grooming. I think they would look like a Yeti.

Puppies will start to potty train themselves. Starting as young as 3 or 4 weeks they will toddle off away from their bed. When they get older and placed in a pen they are easily papertrained to a section of the pen and then this can be generalized into bigger and bigger spaces. True housetraining of puppies under 10 weeks is rare, though if you had only one or two puppies it might be more feasible to attempt. Large breeders often keep the puppies in pens and they probably aren't very housetrained at all.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

That sounds like a typical "Doodle" breeder response to me. They tell puppy buyers the dog only need to be groomed once a year and to never shave them. (Only grooming once a year = serious mats, so there is little choice but to shave.) I think that's the weirdest response ever.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> That sounds like a typical "Doodle" breeder response to me. They tell puppy buyers the dog only need to be groomed once a year and to never shave them. (Only grooming once a year = serious mats, so there is little choice but to shave.) I think that's the weirdest response ever.


This is true I have seen this also. I bet thats what it is.


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## poodleholic (Jan 6, 2010)

My breeder(s) start shaving FFT at 4 weeks. Lucia was a dream on the grooming table from the moment I got her, and well on her way to being housetrained as well. She had lots of role models and "mentors," at her breeder's, and at home w/me! lol And, actually, she did not have a haircut until 9 months (just some scissoring for puppy cut).


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## Mercury's Mom (Dec 6, 2009)

That was the same excuse my boys' "breeder" gave for never having bathed or doing FFT. As if her pups could ever be show dogs. I believe a poodle's face and tail need to be done for hygiene reasons. The face hair collects dirt and food and the hairs around the eyes can cause eye issues. Besides, there isn't a show poodle out there without a clean face. It sounds like this breeder has never paid much attention to the dog show world let alone participated in it. Getting a young pup used to being clipped is important, especially if they will have to be groomed as often as a show poodle must be. Im my boys' breeder's case it was sheer lazyness and she just didn't care what sate the pups were in. I know they probably would have sold better had she done FFT so they didn't look so much like scruffy mutts. People who want a poodle want a dog that looks like a poodle. Without ever being groomed at 4 months old my boys looked more like labradoodles than spoos.

Saying the pups will be confused by different potty training methods is just silly. Dogs understand the difference between outside and inside no matter what house they are in, otherwise we would have to do seperate potty training for each room in our house. If she said that they won't be fully potty trained that's one thing, but to say her showing the pups that it's desirable to go potty outside is going to confuse them is a crock of bull. It really sounds like she is like my boys' breeder. Just let nature take it's course and make money off the pups with as little trouble added to the breeder as possible but with a lot of excuses for why they haven't been socialised, kept in a clean environment (otherwise they would start potty training themselves), and had minimal grooming. Its called not caring.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

We would not dream of letting a puppy go that was not shaved FFT and well on the way to being house broken OMG that breeder is selling you a bill of goods.. Find another breeder... We feel like a poodle spends alot of its life on a grooming table and we want the babies to know that it is a good thing and not scary, we start them at three weeks running the clipper and touching them with it. Then at 4 weeks ususally it is a snap.. .. We also do nails and run our fingers around their mouths touching reeth and looking at bites. We train them to stack and start leash training as well..


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

The younger they are when they hear the whir of the clippers the better. I clip FFT at least twice, usually three times before they leave, and they have had at least one, probably two baths and blow outs.

They have been well on their way to being crate trained because a lot of them are shipped, and I do not want the poor little muffins to be traumatized by being put in a crate for thee first time when they are leaving.

Most of my pups are completely poop trained and starting their pee training by the time they leave. So, yes, I think you are being sold a bill of goods for sure!!


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

If what you are describing in the original post is the standard for breeders, then I am SOOOO glad that Lucy's breeder is waaaay better than standard!! 

When I got Lucybug last fall at 8 weeks of age, she had been groomed (bath, FFT) at least twice (pictures were posted on facebook of the finished grooms) and had been started on her potty training.

We've had Lucy for 2 1/2 months and she has NEVER pooped in my house (not once!!) She's had a few pee accidents, but they were early on and she's excellent about telling us when she needs to go outside now (she'll whine and bark at the gate which leads to our basement and the "out" door) 

She is AWESOME on the grooming table. I love to keep her FFT clean and I've had her up on the table countless times already just messing around with the clippers, brushes, combs, cleaning ears, clipping nails, examining teeth, brushing snow balls from her coat, etc... and she stands very calmly, quietly and lets me do whatever I have in mind (we've never had a bad session on the table, so she has no fear of it) I used my new velocity dryer for the first time this weekend and she was excellent with that as well. 

I'm ever grateful to Lucy's breeder for starting her early and starting her right! It has made it so much more enjoyable and trouble-free for this novice poodle mom!  Thanks, Cherie!! :lol:


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

" She has not been groomed, as she is only 2 months old. We sell many of our puppies to show homes, and to be shown they cannot be groomed before 1 year of age, as it messes up their coat. Knowing this, we do not groom our puppies before they go. We do not house train or crate train our puppies, as we find it confuses them more when they go to their new homes and their new family does it differently. "
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That is just insane LMAO !!!!!!:wacko::wacko::wacko:

I never heard something like that - EVER :doh:

ALL breeders that I ever talked to or know personally ( and I talked always to the reputable show dog breeders) DO regularly groom their puppies and it is of GREAT importance . They start with "mock" grooming at 5 weeks (using a clipper without the blade) - touching puppy's body so it will get used to the sound of it and bathing is involved at lest 2-4 times before age 8 weeks. Their faces and feet and the base of a tale are definitely SHAVED by 8 weeks - most than make professional "photo shoot" for potential buyers to see puppies in several positions (stance , front, rare, head close-up ). 

Regarding a "house-training" - of course that puppy can not be "trained" by 8 weeks BUT they definitely get a HEAD start if they have "elimination" schedule and area designated for that purpose. 

I personally saw one breeder's method and it was fantastic. She wold let them out in the garden (specially gated area just for puppies) on regular intervals and would always announce "potty time" !!! and praise them ! Than she would pick up poop and let them play and than put then back in - same as when one has a single puppy at home !

I am sure that those puppies have WAAAYYYYYY easier time when they come to new home .

They are used to be touched, groomed, and handled and also got the idea of "go potty" means. I spent about 3 hours at her home and there was ONE SINGLE PEE accident IN THE play pen with SEVEN puppies inside !!!!!!

If I were you - I would RUN from that breeder as fast as I can LOL


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