# Should all walks be training walks? Pinch Collar/Head Collar Question.



## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I would only walk him with a Gentle Leader harness when you're walking him with the other dogs. As for training class, I would refuse to use a pinch collar (I was the only one in my puppy class who flat out refused and used a flat collar).


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

When I want to walk my dogs, and not be training, I use a prong collar. This is because without it, there is a lot of pulling and I have to spend a LOT of time training so that we can walk peacefully with a loose leash. We may not even get more than a few steps at a time because I WILL NOT be dragged. However, with a prong, it's really a non issue! No pulling, the dogs walk nicely by my side, and we can all enjoy ourselves. As to the petting, when I go for a walk, it's to get out and walk. We hit the trails usually or walk through the subdivision. There's not usually more than just a smile as we pass other people. I want my dogs to ignore other dogs and people when are out on our walks and I do ask for their focus on me when we pass others.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, my situation is rather different with toy dogs, but I worked on loose leash training games (treats and jolly talking for staying beside me, changes of direction, reversing, refusing to go forward for pulling, gradually moving on to more distracting environments, etc, etc), and walked them as much as possible in off leash areas until they began to understand. We are lucky to have lots of safe country walks close by. And I am with zooeysmom - every class I have ever taken in the UK has specified a flat collar, and carefully explained to owners who came with slip or choke collars why they were to be avoided, especially with puppies.


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## Michelle (Nov 16, 2009)

My dogs know how to walk nicely on a leash when asked. But 99% of the time I let them wander. They enjoy themselves more, and they tire themselves out running around sniffing things.

I let Atticus off leash and he does his own thing, and I walk Yuki on a long lead (trying to train him to be off leash) attached to his harness. 

Yuki gets over excited about other dogs so when I see one coming I call him to me, reel in the lead to a reasonable length and switch to his prong collar (which he also wears on our walk) and make him heel and leave it. Then he sits and I reattach to his harness and tell him "free" and he goes about his exploring. His excitement of other dogs passing has greatly improved with the help of a prong collar. He basically corrects himself when he gets excited and jumps toward the other dog. I was reluctant to try the prong collar...I tried all different kinds of collars and harnesses and this was the only thing to help our problem. 

I did use a gentle leader with Yuki when he was in training to be a service dog (I was fostering/training him for an organization before he dropped out and adopted him) and it worked really well. He got used to it pretty fast and he never pulled with it on. When we first started with the gentle leader I also attached the leash to the collar (so it was attached to both the gentle leader loop and collar loop) so if he stopped to scratch at it, the leash would pull his neck instead of tighten around his nose on the gentle leader...but if he pulled forward it would use the gentle leader and not the collar. I hope that makes sense...hopefully it will make better sense if you clip it that way and see for yourself in person. 

Since he is ignoring the pinch collar I would try out the gentle leader. If you don't want to try the gentle leader (or it doesn't work for him), there are a few different style harnesses you could look into. I haven't really tried any of them because my dogs aren't pullers since I walk them mainly on long lines or off leash, but I know people have had luck with some of them.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would use a pinch collar for exactly the reasons articulated by CharismaticMillie. Also Michelle I don't think the OP said the pinch collar was being ignored by the dog, but that she was trying to decide what to use under what circumstances. I use pinch collars pretty much the way you do Michelle. They are on but not necessarily always hooked up. They are there when I need them and a reminder to the dogs not to pull. If somebody forgets their manners then we stop and put the leash on the pinch along with the other collar. I haven't put one on Javelin yet. He has been a fine gentleman about his leash manners.

My only comment to the OP about the use of a pinch collar is in reference to her mention of correcting her amstaff before she jumps. The whole purpose of how a pinch collar works is that you don't make corrections by giving any kind of leash pop. The dog gives the correction to itself when it feels the pressure as it starts to pull. Also make sure you aren't using an oversized pinch collar. If it fits right it won't look punishing. Or you can get the ones that have plastic points or covers over the points if you really don't want to explain the collar.

I do agree that the best first choice for training leash manners to all dogs should be positive reinforcement based and that the greatest chances of success in those endeavors is by reinforcing the dog's centripetal attraction towards its handler(s). This is why my puppies start off being encouraged to follow us around the yard without collars or leashes at all. After that we all need to remember that any kind of collar and leash is a coersive tool and that any of them can be used humanely and any of them can be used to hang a dog. I find flat buckle collars and martingales (which pinch collars are a specialized version of) to be the best tools in terms of safety. Too many people put unlimited slip collars ("choke chanis") on backwards. Then the tightness never goes off the collar and the dog really does choke.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

my take on this is that all walks are de facto training walks whether one intends them to be or not. had i been more orderly and diligent, my dog would have known the difference between "we are doing a formal walk" and "we are just going to hang out." i never did really effective training re heeling. turning and going in the other direction when my dog pulled did not work. telling him to heel did not really work, either, and i resisted using a head halter or a prong collar. either of those might have worked, though if you end up still jerking them to keep the dog in a heeling position, i rank them a fail - or they don't fit right and the dog is not being negatively reinforced "on his own" by pulling.

for my dog, it would have been probably have been helpful to use the old peanut butter on a spoon trick to teach the real meaning of heel (much harder to do with a small dog, as you need quite a long spoon). and i should have developed two different signals to let him know when it was okay for him just to explore. 

imo, all the responsibility lies on the trainer, but how one trains can very much depend on the temperament of the dog. the bottom line for my dog was that he had to believe it was in his interest to do whatever. when i failed to get him to believe was when he failed, too.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

patk you and I were writing at the same time. I would also rate any tool that ended up with the handler having tension on the leash as a fail.

I also have to say that unless I am in an obedience or rally practice or trial ring I do not require heeling. A loose leash is all that is required when out in the neighborhood or at PetSmart.


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## ItzaClip (Dec 1, 2010)

I walk three dogs daily together through downtown olds and back forth to work. I walk my older two on my left and puppy on right. I tied older ones to my waist do I was hands free for training pup. Set yourself up for success, you be in front so puppy didn't pull. Make sure you are more valuable than other dogs ( don't allow them to hang out together all the time). Use treats, toys, gentle leader, to be successful. If can't be training use harness on flexi. . I have used both brands of head halters. The halti is a fixed halter that teaches them to pull with their nose, abs when they do the part around the muzzle tightens. The gentle leader puts pressure on the occopult when they pull. It doesn't stop them from breathing, barking, biting, it often calms dogs and they do get over it. If you want peaceful walks use that. Don't ever allow dog to hit end of leash on gentle leader- it will whip head around. 

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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

Personally, I would never put my dog in a class that required chokes or prongs. They're most likely using horribly outdated methods that I would not subject my dogs to. 
I use a halti on my Dane when I have all three dogs out together because he can be dog reactive. When he's out alone he's on a flat collar or martingale and I do the odd training during the walk. With a puppy, I'd much rather just train them to walk politely from the beginning and not need to rely on any training tool. 


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I wouldn't want to be part of a class that required a pinch or a choke chain either. At my club when we have a beginner class we strongly recommend flat buckle or martingale collars for handlers who are inexperienced. We don't generally talk about pinches unless they ask.

On the other hand we don't prohibit the use of pinches either and in my open and utility classes most of the dogs are wearing them.

I think this goes back to the idea that people need to understand the nature of the tools they are using. We need to acknowledge that any collar and leash that affects the ability of the dog to make its own decision is coercive. The least coercive tool that works should be the one that is used and that the use of the tool has to be correct and informative to the dog and not merely punitive. Nor for that matter should the handler be a pez dispenser who doles out a whole bag of Zukes or something similar in a 30-60 minute class for no good reason. That is bribery and isn't much better than a coercive tool since the dog isn't really thinking through what it is doing. It is just obsessing about the contents of the overflowing bait bag.


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## RustySpoo (Sep 20, 2015)

kayla_baxter said:


> Personally, I would never put my dog in a class that required chokes or prongs. They're most likely using horribly outdated methods that I would not subject my dogs to.
> I use a halti on my Dane when I have all three dogs out together because he can be dog reactive. When he's out alone he's on a flat collar or martingale and I do the odd training during the walk. With a puppy, I'd much rather just train them to walk politely from the beginning and not need to rely on any training tool.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I believe* pinch collars are a effective way to train only if YOU the owner know what you are doing. There is a right way, a wrong way, a safe way and a dangerous way to use them. Please don't be so quick to diss on the Prong Collar. I most defiantly wouldn't advise anyone to go buy one, put it one their dog and use it without being trained themselves on how to use it safely and effectively.
How can you train your dog if you have no idea what you are doing yourself. 
"They're most likely using horribly outdated methods" No, not the case at all. 
I respect your opinion, but I highly disagree. And thats okay. 
I cant tell you how many PetCo/Petsmart owners that have done training at the big box store end up in our training class seeking help.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

https://positively.com/dog-training/methods-equipment/training-equipment/choke-and-prong-collars/

Dr. Nicholas Dodman on Dog Behavior and New Training Techniques | The Bark


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