# Obedience Class Boredom or Ignoring??



## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

Sounds like she's bored... Why so long to practice by yourselves?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I think a few good repetitions of a behavior at a time is best for a thinking dog like a poodle. If it were me, regardless of what everyone else is doing in class, I would move on or take a break after say 3 good reps.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

Well, I think the reason we're practicing so long on our own is that the trainer is having to take a lot of time working with the other dogs in the class. I work with Polly every day and many times a day so she tends to do well in class. I'm not sure the other owners spend much time during the week so their dogs don't usually master the behavior from the previous week and then don't have the foundation to learn the new week's behavior. 

I'll start giving Polly more frequent breaks to work on other things we need more work on like heel with distractions! (or holding a treat on your nose!  )


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think she is bored and maybe even confused about why you want her to repeat things so many times. I agree with CharismaticMillie once you get three good responses do something else. I find if I ask Lily for much more than that she ends up thinking she is doing something wrong and offers a variation on what was perfectly fine. Since it is likely that the trainer is taking extra time with dogs who aren't as quick as Polly or handlers who get it the way you do I would say do as you are and work on other things while you wait. It is the perfect chance to teach some tricks or to work on distance and distractions. I used to go to PetSmart a lot to do different position stays right at the entrance to the store and stuff like that.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> I think she is bored and maybe even confused about why you want her to repeat things so many times. I agree with CharismaticMillie once you get three good responses do something else. I find if I ask Lily for much more than that she ends up thinking she is doing something wrong and offers a variation on what was perfectly fine. Since it is likely that the trainer is taking extra time with dogs who aren't as quick as Polly or handlers who get it the way you do I would say do as you are and work on other things while you wait. It is the perfect chance to teach some tricks or to work on distance and distractions. I used to go to PetSmart a lot to do different position stays right at the entrance to the store and stuff like that.


Thanks! Ooo.... getting confused as to what I'm asking her since I keep asking the same thing.... I hadn't thought of that! I bet that's part of it too. That makes a lot of sense. 
Yes, always plenty to work on while we're in such a busy place. She can down/stay with all sorts of distractions (even a ball bouncing right near her paw!) until kids come near. Breaks the stay every time. LOL I guess it's not such a bad thing to have a dog who loves kids that much.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Are you marking the behavior? (with a clicker or a marker signal of some sort) And making it over-the-top worth it to her? What kind of reinforcer are you using? I'd do a few reps of one thing, skip to something else for a few, then try that one again if it needs to get better. Once she's got a behavior or an approximation of it, put a spin on it...only reinforce for the very best examples. Be sure to try it with a few variations as far as context, location, distractions, relative position to you (if that applies...for example, with a sit or stay) With the easier things, try a pretty good reinforce and as you ask for better, have some higher value treats or with the last few reps you're going to do. Be sure there's a stupendous pay off for her and she'll tend to repeat the behavior. Praise is all good, but it's marginal as far as reinfocers go.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Are you marking the behavior? (with a clicker or a marker signal of some sort) And making it over-the-top worth it to her? What kind of reinforcer are you using? I'd do a few reps of one thing, skip to something else for a few, then try that one again if it needs to get better. Once she's got a behavior or an approximation of it, put a spin on it...only reinforce for the very best examples. Be sure to try it with a few variations as far as context, location, distractions, relative position to you (if that applies...for example, with a sit or stay) With the easier things, try a pretty good reinforce and as you ask for better, have some higher value treats or with the last few reps you're going to do. Be sure there's a stupendous pay off for her and she'll tend to repeat the behavior. Praise is all good, but it's marginal as far as reinfocers go.


I use a clicker or marker word... but clicker more often with newer things. I make sure she's hungry (doesn't get fed her dinner until AFTER class) and bring along her favorite treats. She's a chow hound. 

I do need to work on only treating the best responses as I probably still treat too often. 

I think it's just been way to boring for her. Doing the same thing over and over again in the same spot just isn't inspiring... for dog or owner. I'm going to let my trainer know what I'll be doing from now on when she gives us time to practice on our own. The trainer and I have become friends so I think she'll be okay with me mixing it up a bit during independent time. 

Thanks for all the fantastic training advice I always find on this forum. You folks rock!


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

Our Petsmart trainer asks for 5 repetitions then we move on. Khaos will do it 4 or 5 times then he's done and if the class isn't ready to move on, I practice some known things on the side or give him a chew toy to keep him occupied. Or I'll combine 2 or 3 out of sequence as something new that requires him to pay attention.

He's smart as a whip and I think he gets bored - AND - he's entering puppy puberty and I heard they get a little willful at that age.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

GeriDe said:


> Our Petsmart trainer asks for 5 repetitions then we move on. Khaos will do it 4 or 5 times then he's done and if the class isn't ready to move on, I practice some known things on the side or give him a chew toy to keep him occupied. Or I'll combine 2 or 3 out of sequence as something new that requires him to pay attention.
> 
> He's smart as a whip and I think he gets bored - AND - he's entering puppy puberty and I heard they get a little willful at that age.


That sounds great! I like how you bring a toy to keep him occupied if he needs a moment of downtime. Sounds like a really nice flow to your classes! He's really handsome in his graduation cap!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

BeckyM said:


> I use a clicker or marker word... but clicker more often with newer things. I make sure she's hungry (doesn't get fed her dinner until AFTER class) and bring along her favorite treats. She's a chow hound.
> 
> *I do need to work on only treating the best responses as I probably still treat too often*.
> 
> ...


If you have followed the Ian Dunbar thread you know that treating only the best responses is the method known as all or none reward training. You should always mark the response you want with a click or a marker word (I use words since I find it awkward to handle the clicker and I also want something that is always available (my voice) as a reinforcer). Save treats to accompany your highest most excited praise for the best performances of the behavior you are working on, e.g. Polly shot out of a cannon recalls. You will find that you can fade the food very easily once she catches on to the value of the life reward. Your praise and pets celebrations will become self reinforcing because they will trigger pleasure center neurological responses. The more often this happens the stronger the brain center connections will become. When I was at the Dunbar workshop one of the canine games activities we did was "doggie dash" which is all about fast recalls. Most of the people had treats or toys that they showed to their dogs as enticement for the recall. The dogs were left with a handler at the start line. Owners left and went to the finish line and called their dogs who had to sit past the finish line first to win. Lily and I won the whole shebang using no treats or toys at all. She came super fast because she new she would have a party with hugs from me at the end, not because of food. Food isn't always available, but you are. You can use food to teach new behaviors, but I don't (nor would Dr. Dunbar) recommend using food or toys as a crutch. You want your goal to be not needing them. Make the life rewards be the ultimate reinforcer. It isn't really hard since Polly obviously already loves and respects you. 

As I have said elsewhere too, dogs are not good at generalizing. Their learning tends to be contextual. The way to really make sure Polly knows what you are asking for is to ask for the behaviors in as many ways and places as possible. Again if you look at the last post in the Ian Dunbar thread you will see some material on this idea, but also in one of the early posts I wrote about doing things like sitting or lying on the floor and asking for sits, etc. You may not want to lie on the floor in PetSmart, but that is another way to generalize.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

Lily cd re - I'm going to go back and reread your Ian Dunbar thread when I have time to really focus and take notes. It's such great info. Thank you!  

Let me see if I understand this though and please help me tweak it because I've known I needed to break our dependence on treats but I worry she'll regress. 
She expects a treat with each click or "YES" but I don't have to give her a food treat? I can just throw a party and pet her for a click or yes? and I give a high value treat reward only for those "perfect" responses? So, when she sits but it takes her a little while... I say "Yes" when she sits and pat her head, etc. but don't give her a treat. If she sits right away then "Yes" and treat?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

BeckyM said:


> Lily cd re - I'm going to go back and reread your Ian Dunbar thread when I have time to really focus and take notes. It's such great info. Thank you!
> 
> Let me see if I understand this though and please help me tweak it because I've known I needed to break our dependence on treats but *I worry she'll regress. *
> She expects a treat with each click or "YES" but* I don't have to give her a food treat? I can just throw a party and pet her for a click or yes? and I give a high value treat reward only for those "perfect" responses? * So, when she sits but it takes her a little while... I say "Yes" when she sits and pat her head, etc. but don't give her a treat. If she sits right away then "Yes" and treat?


You have it right. You need to convert your continuous reinforcement treat reward schedule to a variable schedule reinforcement schedule. Continuous reinforcement means the behavior becomes highly attached to the receipt of the treat. When you start to fade the treats you probably will notice some (maybe lots of) regression. Forge through it. Polly is smart and she will figure out the concept of delayed gratification, just like your own kids and the ones you have at day care do. A variable reinforcement schedule keeps dogs guessing as to whether a treat is coming. They also quickly will figure out "I better do the thing she is asking for or I know there will be nothing for me" concept. Actually I am realizing that I should explain reinforcement schedules in the other thread. I will do that, but there are the basic concepts for you Becky.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> You have it right. You need to convert your continuous reinforcement treat reward schedule to a variable schedule reinforcement schedule. Continuous reinforcement means the behavior becomes highly attached to the receipt of the treat. When you start to fade the treats you probably will notice some (maybe lots of) regression. Forge through it. Polly is smart and she will figure out the concept of delayed gratification, just like your own kids and the ones you have at day care do. A variable reinforcement schedule keeps dogs guessing as to whether a treat is coming. They also quickly will figure out "I better do the thing she is asking for or I know there will be nothing for me" concept. Actually I am realizing that I should explain reinforcement schedules in the other thread. I will do that, but there are the basic concepts for you Becky.


Thank you so much! I get it now and I will start doing that right away. Thank you for the warning that she may struggle with it at first but it will get better if I stay consistent. That will help me power through.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Your patience will pay off! I just finished a detailed explanation of reinforcement schedules in the Ian Dunbar thread.


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