# Small Litter



## sharper (Oct 6, 2011)

My girl just had her first litter. This is my first litter as well. Mama is a three year old Standard and had and passed all the reccomemnded testing, confirmations etc. We had a well planned breeding, did progeterone testing, once we got a progesterone reading of 5.4, we then bred the next day for 4 days in a row (live draw AI). Stella had two healthy but large pups (both over 15 oz). We knew we were having just two, because we did x-ray. Stella whelped on day 63 and had an easy whelping. Puppies both weighed over 15 oz. wow. We of course expected them to be big with all that room etc. Puppies are now 6 days old and looks so chubby. Plenty of milk available nipples and no competition. The whelping box is big and I have rolled up towels and dog toys in there for puppies to climb on and make them find mom sometimes, I dont want them to just lay on there bellies and eat. Worry thery might turn into swimmers. They really can crawl around the pen very well, have no problems climbing over obsticles etc. They now at day six have almost doubled their weight, over 28 and 29 oz. respectivley. I take mama out of room a few times a day for an hour or little longer, so they dont have 24 hour access to the full milk bar, haha. 
My questions are, has anyone experienced just having two in a liiter and have any advice about or testimonials about round chubby puppies and health issues? 

Also wondering, if since we really did cover the bitch on her ovulation dates, should I expect another small litter? Regardless of how many pups we get in a second breeding, I will only breed her twice. TIA


Thanks
Shawn


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## jazz06 (Jun 29, 2011)

sharper said:


> My girl just had her first litter. This is my first litter as well. Mama is a three year old Standard and had and passed all the reccomemnded testing, confirmations etc. We had a well planned breeding, did progeterone testing, once we got a progesterone reading of 5.4, we then bred the next day for 4 days in a row (live draw AI). Stella had two healthy but large pups (both over 15 oz). We knew we were having just two, because we did x-ray. Stella whelped on day 63 and had an easy whelping. Puppies both weighed over 15 oz. wow. We of course expected them to be big with all that room etc. Puppies are now 6 days old and looks so chubby. Plenty of milk available nipples and no competition. The whelping box is big and I have rolled up towels and dog toys in there for puppies to climb on and make them find mom sometimes, I dont want them to just lay on there bellies and eat. Worry thery might turn into swimmers. They really can crawl around the pen very well, have no problems climbing over obsticles etc. They now at day six have almost doubled their weight, over 28 and 29 oz. respectivley. I take mama out of room a few times a day for an hour or little longer, so they dont have 24 hour access to the full milk bar, haha.
> My questions are, has anyone experienced just having two in a liiter and have any advice about or testimonials about round chubby puppies and health issues?
> 
> Also wondering, if since we really did cover the bitch on her ovulation dates, should I expect another small litter? Regardless of how many pups we get in a second breeding, I will only breed her twice. TIA
> ...


hi dont know if this helps you i got a mini poodle shes had 3 litters in all a litter of 3 first time day 11 litter of 4 day 12 and litter of 2 day 11 different stud, her last litter was 2 puppies and they were huge couldnt believe the size, everything was fine turned into healthy puppies no problems and didnt turn out any bigger, average size, i was surprised she had 2 as she got mated on day 11 same as last time, i never used ovulation tests on her but im sure if i did i would have still got same result,
good luck with your new babies


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

My Mosie x Annie litter produced 2 pups (surgical AI - progesterone at 20) - C Section birth. (Let's talk about breeding being done for the love and the improvement of the breed and not to make $ !!!)

The pups - both boys - were healthy and almost a pound each at birth. I called them my Manatees. They would suckle from one teat to the next and I had more than a few moments where I was concerned they might not be able to walk! ha

At just over 7 weeks the pups are amazing. They are in good weight, but they are not heavy. NOW, they are very socialized, moved from my bedroom to my kitchen area and have been allowed to run/wobble around the house since they have been mobile. (A known key to loosing weight - move around more! so play and interact with the pups and the weight concern will vanish!)

Annie is very small, and this was her first litter. A frozen AI was conisidered a little risky with a maiden bitch and I was hoping for 3 or 4. I'm thrilled with the 2. They are healthy and beautiful and I plan to repeat the breeding, after a live cover breeding for her next litter. Annie's progesterone followed more of a bell curve as opposed to the expected spike, so even with a live cover I will do progesterone testing to monitor her cycle. Possibly I could have had a couple more pups if her procedure had been done when progesterone was at 15 instead of 20. We'll see!

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

My, sounds complicated. With my boxers we just took the female to the male a couple of times over a couple days. Lots of pups. It seems so many people do AI. Does it usually mean just a couple pups or do people get a full litter sometimes, too?


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Well frozen only lives for a few hours as opposed to live which lives for 5 days. So if you are breeding and are going to use a collection, finding a great reproductive vet is a very important thing.

Also knowing your female's progesterone cycle as with frozen you have such a small window of opportunity. The eggs have to be mature and ready to be fertilized. Motility is often at only 30 - 40% and the collection needs to be deposited into the uterus since the swimmers aren't really swimming...

And most of this is probably TMI for the general poodle public! :ahhhhh: 

AI - frozen specifically - is costly and I think generally results in smaller litters, though I have heard of some really large litters resulting - so it's about timing!


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Once again I am stunned by the time, energy, knowledge, and expense it takes to breed for the right reasons, and to do so without cutting corners. I salute you!


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## sharper (Oct 6, 2011)

Nola,

It sounds like we had a very similar experience, except for our AI was a live draw and your c-section (I am so glad both mama and pups faired well with that). Srella's pups are two weeks old today, weigh 3,1/4 and 31/2 pounds. Their eyes are open and they walk around their pen like drunken Sailors , no longer worried about swimmers. My girl also did not ovulate at the expected time, her progesterone was a .2 on day 7, .5 on day 10, 1.2 on day 13, and 5.4 on day 15. So late in her cycle to ovulate compared to most Standards? Was your girl "late" on ovulation as well? What color are your puppy boys?


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Now Annie is fastidiously clean - and she was also a month early. I came home from a show weekend and my caretaker/friend says, "Umm, Annie has been bleeding since Saturday!" ACK ACK AKC :ahhhhh: So keep in mind Annie's days count could actually be a day or 2 off/earlier considering how very clean she keeps herself. This would follow more her dam's cycle -which was also considered a late ovulation. But what I recorded is the following, along with the above notes:

Annie's progesterone was 2.006 on Day 6 and on Day 10 it was 4. +
Usually there is a spike here but Annie's progesterone continued to slowly climb. Day 11 it was 6.+ and Day 12 it had reached 9.52 (blood drawn p.m. instead of early a.m.). Ideal for surgical AI is when progesterone reaches 15 - also ideal is the spike which Annie did not have. The vet at this stage was a little concerned about proceeding with the implantation. Not so me = determined! (And I knew what the females in her line do.) On day 13 progesterone had reached 12.+ (blood drawn before noon) and we were at the weekend. I probably should have pushed for a late Saturday or early Sunday procedure, but I didn't so the procedure was done Monday at Noon. For the record we pulled another blood sample and submitted it. Her progesterone at the time of procedure was 20.+ (NOTE: Blood serum was sent to Cornell University for their testing - so test results were always a day later. Also, most AI "packages" include 3 progesterone tests, so the testing I did, which was needed, was an added cost.)

Ultimately her breeding was on day 16 (could have been 18). Ruby, her dam, produced 13 pups with a fresh/live draw AI at day 16 as well. 

The litter produced 2 boys. A black and an apricot - which I was surprised but thrilled to get.

They will be professionally evaluated this Sunday when they will be just over 8 weeks old. The breeding was an outcross and as a result the pups are entirely 2 different types! (imagine that! ha!) The apricot is Annie in a puppy package - an absolute doll, and together since 5 - 6 weeks. The black is leggy and elegant - everything is longer than I am accustomed to. Fancier as well. I'd really like the black for the breeding program, as I want to introduce some refinement and elegance into the red lines, but I'd like my thoughts and evaluations confirmed, so they'll be taking a car ride to the Hattiesburg Cluster.

Cross your fingers for me!


Tabatha
NOLA Standards

PS I am happy enough with the litter that I plan to repeat the breeding. And considering the litter cost over 5k - and that was getting them here - not shots or microchips or all the other costs associated that we don't add up! that should let you know how happy I am with the quality. (Though when the Doc came out to tell me Annie had 2 boys I said..."Ugh, snip the tip and push it back in! I want some girls!" I'm thrilled with the boys but will be feeding Royal Jelly this next breeding! (There are breeders that swear by that for girls and though it doesn't make scientific sense, if there is a chance I'm trying it!)


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Good luck with their evaluations! My breeder also got some interesting types by outcrossing to other lines and has picked and chosen carefully on which to keep since there was so much variety. Please let us know what the evaluator says.  I am trying to learn all of these poodle concerns before I need to use the knowledge. The leggier ones take longer to get it together, I know that much, but if they eventually do, it is lovely. I hope your black pup does that, too.


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## sharper (Oct 6, 2011)

How did the Puppy evaluations go?


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

I will be keeping the apricot male. He has a beatiful head, long legs and is a very elegant animal. All are things that I need for the line. (along with a very pleasing body and precious temperment!).

It would have been an easier decision if he were a girl! ha! as I have a truly spectacular male (Lombardi) out of Carter x Ruby.

As things, stand, his call name is Brees (Nola boys tribute the Saints remember), and I'll be working on his registered name which I will share, along with pictures once he is a little older. At this time he is headed into his 10th week and is already sprouting legs and leaving his tail behind. Ooops no, it's tail and no neck. I mean... hahaha It's just that growth time for him!

Thanks for asking.


Tabatha 
NOLA Standards


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I would not count on a small litter if you breed your girl again. Our Betty had five pups her first litter, and eight her second litter. These we natural breedings. Jenny was AI'd and had four her first litter. We hope she follows in her sister's footsteps and has a larger litter her second time around. Betty and Jenny's mother Holly was surgically implanted for her first litter and had ten puppies. Sometimes it seems the stars and planets have to be lined up just so and it does not have to make sense.


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## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

Good name NOLA! Does that mean that the black boy will be Whoday, or Whodat??


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