# Colour possibilities



## Brittany May (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm wondering about the colour possibilites you can get when breeding a certain colour to a certain colour.

Apricot x apricot? 
Black x black?
white x white?
silver x black?
white x black?
apricot x red?
silver beige x silver?
silver beige x red/apricot?
silver beige x black?
apricot/red x black?
apricot/red x white?

Any other colour combinations you can think of? I have come across a breeder that breeds others than blacks, so I'm curious.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

It depends on what the colors are behind each of the dogs, too. You have to look up the colors on a site like poodlepedigree. People put in the colors of the dogs there. For example, it is possible to get a whole range of colors breeding two blacks together:
This is a litter from two solid black dogs - there was two creams (one actually turned out to be very white), three browns, one apricot and three black.  A whole rainbow of colors in this one litter!:


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## Brittany May (Feb 9, 2012)

Hmm. So it is possible for a breeder who only has black dogs to have colours in the litter other than black? Awesome


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Brittany May said:


> Hmm. So it is possible for a breeder who only has black dogs to have colours in the litter other than black? Awesome


It's not only possible -- from what I've learned hanging around here it's highly likely. Don't forget that the parents' color(s) is only the latest manifestation ("expression") of all the generations that came before. Color genetics is wonderously complicated. Just ask any of the red breeders on this forum! I love reading about it and find it an endlessly fascinating subject.

I know you're looking for a pup, and I totally understand your desire to choose a particular color. But when it comes down to it, ALL of the colors are beautiful, and what really counts is the puppy's temperament. The more flexible you can be, the more options you have and the more likely you are to find your ideal poodle companion. We, for example, swore we'd never get a white dog; tear stains, shows dirt, all the usual reasons. See that beautiful white mini in our avatar? Beau was exactly the right dog for us at the right moment. Finding him was kismet, fate, luck, or God at work, call it what you will. I am so glad we put aside color as a deciding factor and went with what was meant to be. We love him to pieces, and you know what? White is a beautiful color for a poodle.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Brittany May said:


> Hmm. So it is possible for a breeder who only has black dogs to have colours in the litter other than black? Awesome


My Cammie is cream (or light apricot) and her parents are both black. The E or e genotype determines whether a dog will be in the red-apricot-cream-white color range. A dog gets an E or an e from each parent. The small e is what produces red-apricot-cream-white and it is recessive, so only ee dogs are red-apricot-cream-white. A black dog might be EE or Ee. If a black parent is EE, then it cannot produce any red, apricot, cream or white offspring. But if both parents are Ee, then the statistical probability is that 25% of the litter will be ee which would make them red, apricot, cream or white. That is exactly what happened with Cammie's litter. Her black parents were both Ee. There were 8 pups in her litter--6 black ones and 2 creams.

See the following page and scroll down for a chart that shows the statistical probability of various matings:

http://www.poodles-in-scandinavia.com/vetgen.htm

Also, see Zyrcona's very helpful posts in this thread:

http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/16205-red-parents-black-puppy-6.html


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## Brittany May (Feb 9, 2012)

LEUllman said:


> It's not only possible -- from what I've learned hanging around here it's highly likely. Don't forget that the parents' color(s) is only the latest manifestation ("expression") of all the generations that came before. Color genetics is wonderously complicated. Just ask any of the red breeders on this forum! I love reading about it and find it an endlessly fascinating subject.
> 
> I know you're looking for a pup, and I totally understand your desire to choose a particular color. But when it comes down to it, ALL of the colors are beautiful, and what really counts is the puppy's temperament. The more flexible you can be, the more options you have and the more likely you are to find your ideal poodle companion. We, for example, swore we'd never get a white dog; tear stains, shows dirt, all the usual reasons. See that beautiful white mini in our avatar? Beau was exactly the right dog for us at the right moment. Finding him was kismet, fate, luck, or God at work, call it what you will. I am so glad we put aside color as a deciding factor and went with what was meant to be. We love him to pieces, and you know what? White is a beautiful color for a poodle.


I agree. Although I really want a light coloured poodle (just like Beau actually  he is incredibly beautiful ) temperament and health are most important to me, ultimately. I just reeeeeeeally want a light poodle, although the blacks are beautiful too. I will just wait and see what I get. 



peppersb said:


> My Cammie is cream (or light apricot) and her parents are both black. The E or e genotype determines whether a dog will be in the red-apricot-cream-white color range. A dog gets an E or an e from each parent. The small e is what produces red-apricot-cream-white and it is recessive, so only ee dogs are red-apricot-cream-white. A black dog might be EE or Ee. If a black parent is EE, then it cannot produce any red, apricot, cream or white offspring. But if both parents are Ee, then the statistical probability is that 25% of the litter will be ee which would make them red, apricot, cream or white. That is exactly what happened with Cammie's litter. Her black parents were both Ee. There were 8 pups in her litter--6 black ones and 2 creams.
> 
> See the following page and scroll down for a chart that shows the statistical probability of various matings:
> 
> ...


I understand now. I'm very interested in horse colour genetics & dog genetics seem to be very similar.

My new colt is EE or homozygous for black, so he can only throw black bassed foals, no matter what the colour of the mare. There are a few genes that can affect the colour of the foal, but that depends on whether the mare is a carrier.

Similar for dogs? What colour genes can affect the black pigment if one dog is EE? How do the silver & blue genes work?


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

Homozygous blacks work very similarly in dogs. Black in many mammal species is a dominant gene. But there are a few factors that can override it. Like silver, very much a similar gene to grey in horses. 

My mini's breeder goes for exclusively blacks, which means she needs nearly all of the ancestry to be black. She used to very occasionally get a brown, but hasn't in the last 12 years.

The first non-black doesn't show up in my dog's maternal pedigree until five generations back, and it's brown. The sire line is a kennel known for nothing but blacks, for dozens of generations going back decades. So the possibly of getting a non-black? Extremely rare, but possible.

But if you breed black to other colors (which people often do) you can get a rainbow.

One main thing you might want to avoid if you see it, as it's sometimes a sign of a less-than-knowledgeable breeder—it's well known among good breeders never to breed brown with white or cream, as it causes loss of skin pigment. You can get them all in the same litter, like Outwest said, but it's not because they were bred together! Brown and the brown-based colors (silver-beige, cafe) are the ONLY colors that should ever have a liver-colored nose, lips, eyerims and skin pigment (you'll sometimes see it in apricot too, but it's not desirable). You want black pigment in all other colors, as even in light dogs having as dark a skin pigment as possible helps prevent sunburn and sensitivity. Light colored poodles with liver pigment tend to have extremely sensitive skin, these dogs can get clipper burn and rashes from even the most careful groomer.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Brittany May said:


> How do the silver & blue genes work?


Blues and blacks have the fading gene. They are born black, but then fade to blue or silver over the first year or two.

Zyrcona described clearing (or fading) in the post I mentioned above as follows:

V locus (clearing -- blues and cafés are thought to be Vv, silver and silver beige VV, and holding black and brown vv)
V clearing
v holding

So this means that the V locus works differently than the E's described above. Neither V nor v is recessive, but instead both contribute to the dog's color. So a silver VV mother mated to a vv black father will produce a litter of all Vv puppies (i.e., blue).


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

peppersb said:


> Blues and blacks have the fading gene. They are born black, but then fade to blue or silver over the first year or two..


I think she meant to say that blues and silvers have the fading gene. Blacks do or do not have the fading gene. Some black stay black their entire lives and some fade to a gray or salt and pepper look.


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## WestCoastSpoo (May 11, 2011)

Brittany May said:


> I agree. Although I really want a light coloured poodle (just like Beau actually  he is incredibly beautiful ) temperament and health are most important to me, ultimately. I just reeeeeeeally want a light poodle, although the blacks are beautiful too. I will just wait and see what I get.
> 
> What colour genes can affect the black pigment if one dog is EE? How do the silver & blue genes work?


Well I was the exact opposite - I REALLY wanted a solid BLACK dog but instead we have a parti that has all WHITE legs and belly (the parts that get dirty first!!) LOL But he really is the perfect match for our family so I couldn't be happier. Huxley's litter was 6 solid silver pups and 2 silver/white partis. His dad is a silver/white parti and his mom is solid silver (but she carries the parti gene since it's recessive). 

Even though I wanted black, the clearing of the silver is really fun to watch! He was so dark black and white when we got him and now his face and ears are silver but his body is a dark steel gray color. There's such a huge range of silver so I'm excited to see where his color ends up. His mom was a very light platinum silver color and his dad was a dark silver/gray color so I have no idea what Huxley's going to look like at 2yrs old. LOL

Oh and I also think Beau is absolutely gorgeous!


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

The grey or dilute (often called fading) locus in the standard poodle has not been located - so most of the assumptions are theoretical at best.

I think blue is (almost) as fascinating as red. 

We don't exactly know how they (the greying and dilute) work. Actually, we don't know how the ee's work either. 

Mostly, we assume :ahhhhh: and hope for the best! Though, to a degree, we can use results from past breedings as a guide.


Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Predicting what is actually possible in specific cases depends on the individual dogs and what genetics they have. There are some colours that won't occur from certain combinations.

Apricot x apricot? Only apricot, cream, or white
Black x black? Mainly black, but potentially also brown, red, apricot, cream, or white depending on the genetics. Holding colours only.
white x white? White only, unless one of the parents is actually an apricot or cream who faded.
silver x black? Mostly blue and possibly café, also perhaps white, cream, or fading apricots and reds. All puppies are clearing colours
white x black? Potentially black, white, apricot, cream. May or may not fade depending on background of white.
apricot x red? Red, apricot, and cream, and rarely white
silver beige x silver? Mostly silver and perhaps silver beige, and possibly also apricot/cream/white colours that fade drastically
silver beige x red/apricot? blues, possibly cafés and fading red/apricot/cream, white
silver beige x black? Mostly blues and possibly cafés, also possibly some fading apricot, cream, white colours. All clearing colours.
apricot/red x black? black and possibly apricot, red, cream, rarely white.
apricot/red x white? cream and apricot

Interesting combination: blue x blue (assuming the normal clearing blue and not the unusual 'born blue' which is a different gene) can potentially produce the largest range of colours: silver, blue, black, silver beige, café, brown, red, apricot, cream, white (in various fading or non-fading combinations.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

outwest said:


> I think she meant to say that blues and silvers have the fading gene.


Yes -- I certainly did mean to say that blues and silvers have the fading gene. Thanks Outwest!


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