# Poodle puppy with malocclusion needing extraction



## jfrantska (Nov 19, 2021)

[This post has been edited by a moderator, as Poodle Forum is not the correct venue to resolve disagreements between breeders and puppy buyers]
I bought a standard poodle puppy from [redacted by moderator] for $2500 and travelled from Washington state to pick her up, costing me another $500. As I was leaving [the breeder] said that the puppy had a malocclusion but not "to let them pull her teeth because she would outgrow it". My vet noted the malocclusion at her first well visit, and this puppy, who was supposed to be the most mellow available of the litter, became increasingly hyperactive. I did online research and discovered that these malocclusions could cause significant pain. I had my vet check her again at 4 months and the malocclusion was worse and causing her significant pain. I have had to schedule an extraction from a canine dentist which will cost me more than what I paid for her, but I don't want her to live in pain. I also learned that her permanent teeth would have a more significant malocclusion if the deciduous canines were not pulled because they grow in at an even more acute angle with th4e deciduous teeth present. I am told that her permanent teeth may well need intervention or pulling, all very expensive.
I don't know how to access a remedy through [state lemon law] but if I did I would require [the breeder] to remind my money to help pay for the cost of Silvie's dental care. I think [the breeder] knew all along that she had a genetic flaw in her breeding dogs and that she didn't want me to take action while my puppy was still young so she couldn't be held responsible.


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## Poodle2021 (Mar 14, 2021)

This is a common issue in poodles as their bottom jaw does not grow in a way that easily accommodates those lower canines. 

My puppy - also from a mating by a respected breeder - came to me with narrow base canine. My breeder explained it to me prior to him coming home. Also told me that the teeth would resolve themselves in time and the vet would not need to pull the puppy teeth for proper adult teeth.

Sure enough, I brought my 10 week old standard poodle to the vet for his first check up. (He came home to me at 10 weeks.) It was Covid, so I dropped him at the front door. The vet called and said we needed to pull his teeth. She acted as though my breeder hadn’t told me / lied to me, which of course was not at all true. I told her that my breeder explained the teeth to me when he was 8 weeks old and that in her (long) experience the adult teeth come in just fine. She was very skeptical and basically insisted we perform surgery on a 10 week old puppy. 

I switched vets, kept his puppy teeth. Gave him things to chew on, he showed no signs of discomfort. Baby teeth fell out. Jaw got bigger. Adult teeth came in. I helped a little by encouraging playing with balls, which pushes those canines out a little but gently. His bite is a perfect scissors. 

Your breeder is very respected. I would trust her opinion & experience. Your active puppy is normal. Demanding a refund / ‘taking action’ against a breeder - especially your particular breeder - over this is blowing my mind (not in a good way). 

If you are unhappy with the puppy, and feel it is too active for you, I would instead return it to her to find it a different home. Sorry if that is harsh, but you already seem quite angry with the breeder over something that is common and was explained to you. Your reaction feels entirely out of proportion. And even the calmest standard poodle will not mature until at least 3 years. You are expecting a fantasy if you want a calm puppy. Please consider returning it to the breeder and requesting a refund.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Zephyr also had one tooth coming in narrow. His breeder told me the vet would recommend pulling it, but said I should just leave it alone and the adult tooth would come in fine. There was a dent on his top palate but it didn't seem to bother him, I left it alone, and the adult tooth came in perfect. This is very common with poodles and usually resolves itself without intervention.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

I don't have advice about trying to get money back from your breeder. It is a common problem and it was disclosed, so I'm not sure you'll have much luck. As someone whose dog also had expensive dental extractions (though not that expensive) as a result of her narrow base canine, I understand your frustration. My breeder was not a well-respected one, and disclosed it only on her medical paperwork which I saw later, did not explain it, and when I reported what the vet told me, gave me the same advice as your breeder. It does seem to be genetic and common in poodles, even responsibly bred ones.

If the tooth is coming in a little narrow and is still clearing the upper gum but makes a little channel on the outside, I would be less likely to worry. If it's anchored in a hole in the middle of her palate, and you have reason to believe it's painful for her (dogs aren't always good at showing pain) then I'd be likelier to go for the extraction. You can search "base narrow canines" on here for other people's experiences with this condition and you'll see some variety in how severe it can be.

In response to the "it resolves itself" crowd - that may by true in general, but all the stuff your vets are telling you is also true, though they are among the worst case scenarios. As someone whose dog did have issues from her malocclusion (and did have the baby tooth extracted as well as later, a damaged adult upper incisor and some baby teeth that were hanging on), I'd say that if your vet/dental vet who has eyes on the puppy thinks it needs to be treated with extraction, that to me would override what the breeder told me "usually happens". Vets and dental vets see the worst case scenarios and that makes them more likely to suggest interventions but it also makes them able to recognize warning signs. You can always get a second professional opinion if you're not sure what to do, but I think it's hard for forum members to evaluate whether something really needs intervention or not.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Our vet advised us to massage the gums and teeth and use balls and chew toys. Our tpoo lost all his teeth without any issues. Our spoo pup i 10 weeks and we were advised by the breeder, that our pup has some American lines which gives a narrower jaw which will grow as the pup grows. Again the remedy is massage, balls and chew toys.
Operations and anaesthetics is serious stuff in such a young pup. The risk involved may surpass the outcome. Poodles generally have narrow jaws and it is common knowledge among breeders, that European lines have a slightly wider lower jaws. Our vet has a deep knowledge of poodles and therefore advises as she does.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Absolutely listen to your vet, but also recognize that the breeder has more experience with poodles and the problems specific to them. Many people on the forum have been advised by vets to pull the teeth but did not on the recommendation of their breeder, and had no problems. That said we are not there, have not seen the dog, so cannot say if this case needs intervention or not. That is between owner and vet, with input from the breeder.


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## jfrantska (Nov 19, 2021)

jfrantska said:


> [This post has been edited by a moderator, as Poodle Forum is not the correct venue to resolve disagreements between breeders and puppy buyers]
> I bought a standard poodle puppy from [redacted by moderator] for $2500 and travelled from Washington state to pick her up, costing me another $500. As I was leaving [the breeder] said that the puppy had a malocclusion but not "to let them pull her teeth because she would outgrow it". My vet noted the malocclusion at her first well visit, and this puppy, who was supposed to be the most mellow available of the litter, became increasingly hyperactive. I did online research and discovered that these malocclusions could cause significant pain. I had my vet check her again at 4 months and the malocclusion was worse and causing her significant pain. I have had to schedule an extraction from a canine dentist which will cost me more than what I paid for her, but I don't want her to live in pain. I also learned that her permanent teeth would have a more significant malocclusion if the deciduous canines were not pulled because they grow in at an even more acute angle with th4e deciduous teeth present. I am told that her permanent teeth may well need intervention or pulling, all very expensive.
> I don't know how to access a remedy through [state lemon law] but if I did I would require [the breeder] to remind my money to help pay for the cost of Silvie's dental care. I think [the breeder] knew all along that she had a genetic flaw in her breeding dogs and that she didn't want me to take action while my puppy was still young so she couldn't be held responsible.


Thank you everyone for your feedback. I do think my puppy is in pain, and my vet also said her malocclusion had gotten worse at 4 months and would be in given how deeply the canine is punching a hole in her gum and ht e redness at the site. He also said that the adult teeth come in from a position that would make it very hard for them to erupt without being having a serious malocclusion, and even with an extraction of her deciduous canine teeth her adult teeth may need intervention. I just don't want her to be in pain. I will be taking her to the canine dentist in a couple of weeks.couple of weeks.

[Edited by moderator to fix HTML so quote posts properly]


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

jfrantska said:


> I will be taking her to the canine dentist in a couple of weeks.


A second opinion by a specialist is a good idea but ask beforehand how familiar they are with this known issue in poodles, and at what point before the adult teeth come in does a decision need to be made. 

Is more than one tooth involved?

A search for base narrow canines here
(9) Search results for query: base+narrow+canines | Poodle Forum


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## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

What I wished I had a done for my dog Nova when she was retaining her puppy teeth that was causing the adult teeth to go into the gum was give her a big bone sooner. Try a frozen raw beef bone (not leg..it’s big and kind of round) that you get from the grocery store in the freezer section and let your pup at it. I couldn’t find is so I asked someone who worked there. The shape and meat on it make them use those front teeth more .This was recommended to me from Nova’s sire owner .

After a weekend of having a blast with the raw bone in the kitchen Nova lost the 4 teeth that were causing her adult teeth to come in wrong. It was too late to fix them completely so some are a bit crooked ( which fortunately hasn’t hurt her in the show ring ) but it was in time to be able work with the adult canines and daily lightly push them outwards (along with ball play) . Then damage in the palate/roof of the mouth healed once the adult canines moved into place.

It’s worth a shot to try.


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## jfrantska (Nov 19, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> A second opinion by a specialist is a good idea but ask beforehand how familiar they are with this known issue in poodles, and at what point before the adult teeth come in does a decision need to be made.
> 
> Is more than one tooth involved?
> 
> ...


The canine dentist is the specialist. My vet already said she needs at least one tooth extracted. I'm retired and living on Social Security alone, so this is a big expense for me that I will have to pay off over time. I am a retired nurse. My goal is to let my puppy live a good life without pain.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

jfrantska said:


> The canine dentist is the specialist. My vet already said she needs at least one tooth extracted. I'm retired and living on Social Security alone, so this is a big expense for me


I'm sorry that I wasn't clear. I understand that the canine dentist is the specialist. What I missed was that the specialist would be planning any extraction without assessing Silvie themselves. Possibly that's to be understood without saying. 

When my boys needed dental work and an extraction was assumed, xrays, which need to be done under sedation so to get a clear and steady picture, were taken first to assess and direct the procedure. Sometimes more is found that needs to be done, sometimes less. I hope for you both that it's possible that the specialist might find that surgery may not be the only solution. 

Many aspects of healthcare, human or canine, are very expensive and your love for Silvie comes thru in the steps you'll take to ensure her welfare.


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## jfrantska (Nov 19, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> I'm sorry that I wasn't clear. I understand that the canine dentist is the specialist. What I missed was that the specialist would be planning any extraction without assessing Silvie themselves. Possibly that's to be understood without saying.
> 
> When my boys needed dental work and an extraction was assumed, xrays, which need to be done under sedation so to get a clear and steady picture, were taken first to assess and direct the procedure. Sometimes more is found that needs to be done, sometimes less. I hope for you both that it's possible that the specialist might find that surgery may not be the only solution.
> 
> Many aspects of healthcare, human or canine, are very expensive and your love for Silvie comes thru in the steps you'll take to ensure her welfare.


When I first made the appointment with the canine dentist I made it for consultation only. But since I had to drive an hour to get there they recommended that I take Silvie back to the vet here who had originally seen her to look at her mouth again. I brought him an excellent article by Dr. Christine Hawke who is a pet dentist in Sydney Australia and it was her article that first alerted me to the fact the Silvie could be in pain. When Dr. Sterling saw her again he said he, too, had read recent publications on malocclusions. He examined her and said one canine in particular had made a hole in her upper gum and was definitely worse than before and needs to be removed, the other canine was questionable for intervention. He took pictures and sent them to the pet dentist. Since then I changed my app[ointment from consultation only to extraction. I am aware that they need to do imaging studies, that the roots of deciduous teeth are long and that the adult teeth buds are nearby. I'm sure that's why it is so expensive. Bottom line again is that I do not want my puppy to be in pain.
She won't eat dry kibble anymore and even when I mix her middle with canned food she has ignored it until I put some in my hand. She eats maybe half of what she used to at a feeding so I offer her food more often. Now I am softening her kibble with water so there is nothing hard. This morning she ate 1/3, so again I will offer it more frequently. This is the most recent change that has now become a regular event.

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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Your background serves you well in Silvie's care. You're able to advocate for her and be a partner with those providing her health care. 
Please stay in touch to let us know how things are for you and Sylvie.


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## Cariboo Poodle (Nov 17, 2021)

My first Poodle had the narrow jaw as others in the litter did and none had any teeth pulled and all have perfect bites once their jaws grew and their permanent teeth came in. I have had pups with it since and no problem with letting them mature.


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## jfrantska (Nov 19, 2021)

It's a matter of the lower canines digging into the upper gemlike, not just a narrow jaw.

I have another question: How common is it for the breeder to refuse to give the registration papers to the buyer of a puppy? The breeder I bought my puppy from wouldn't give me the registration papers, and when she finally mailed them, she had registered my puppy, saying I was the owner but giving her a name "Lakeview". I have not had any input in even naming my own puppy, and from what others have told me, the normal thing is that the breeder gives the new owner the registration paperwork and the new owner fills it in and sends it to AKC. The breeder only puts their own information on the form, not the buyer's so I'm told. My puppy is not named "Lakeview". I don't feel that she has been registered to me at all.


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## Poodle2021 (Mar 14, 2021)

My puppy’s breeder asked me what I wanted to name him on his AKC paperwork. His name is KennelName MyChosenName. His registered name is not the same as what I call him on a daily basis. For example, if he were registered with the AKC as ‘KennelName The City of Lights’ he might then be called ‘Paris’ as his everyday name. 

Of course, no one but your breeder knows why she didn’t ask you to choose his registered name. 

For registrations: my breeder completed the AKC paperwork on the full litter after all the puppies went to their new homes. I never saw the registration paperwork at all. She filled it all in, paid, and registered the litter. Every dog I’ve owned has been registered this way. A lot of owners never turn in the paperwork; I suspect breeders do it because then they know it’s done and they pay for it.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Both of my dogs came to me with the application for AKC limited registration, which I had to complete and mail in with the fees. I got to choose their names. Frosty is from Rock'nRolla, so his reg. name, which I chose, is Rock'nRolla Frosty Blue. Unfortunately, I didn't include Maizie's kennel name in her reg. name. (YOURBREEDER) probably wants to avoid that problem, and if you ever compete with your dog (e.g., in companion and performance sports), the breeder will get noticed having their name out there. You have purchased from a top-notch breeder. I have seen many of these dogs show in conformation and they are stunning. I hope the teeth issue resolves itself and that your pup isn't in pain.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

How is Silvie doing?

Was there anything in the warranty/guarantee/contract/bill of sale that addressed when registration papers would be turned over? It may sound unfair but the breeder can write terms into the contract such as holding on to the reg until proof of spay/neuter or other terms. If this info isn't in the contract and wasn't discussed, it obviously would have been better if it had.

It's probably more typical to give the reg papers or info at the time the pup becomes the new family's, but there's no legal obligation that I'm aware of.

Some breeders will register the litter then give the paperwork to convert that reg to an individual reg.

Some breeders place a condition that their kennel name or a variation be a part of the registered name. This is also usually addressed somewhere in the paperwork. This is in part what MF wrote above.

*Naming Conventions*
_Though reputable breeders only breed dogs that are registered with the American Kennel Club, thus verifying their lineage, each new puppy that is born must be individually registered as well. Sometimes a breeder will require you to fill out the AKC registration papers; other times, the breeder will take care of it herself, especially if she is an AKC Breeder of Merit, a designation that shows a breeder has committed to registering all of her puppies with the American Kennel Club.

No matter who fills out the paperwork, your puppy will need a registered name. Different from its “call name,” which is what you call the puppy at home, a dog’s registered name is a longer, more elaborate name that typically incorporates the breeder’s kennel name at its beginning; in some cases, the kennel names of a co-breeder or the stud-dog owner are included as well.

Breeder contracts often stipulate the use of these kennel names as part of the puppy’s registered name. Beyond that, breeder contracts can vary widely: Some breeders will require the approval of the name before it is submitted; others might mandate that the name start with a particular letter or follow a certain theme they have established with the litter. The only time this name will be used is when your dog is entered at AKC events, including agility, obedience, and conformation. What you call your dog at home is your own business!_
Everything You Need to Know About Breeder Contracts (akc.org)


There's a chance that the breeder will agree to this possibility, if it applies.
AKC Rule Change Allows Owners to Rename Their Dogs – American Kennel Club

You can call your dog any name you like after the kennel name. Even the breeder isn't likely to call their dogs by the registry name.


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