# Would puppy mills use this type of service?



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Paw prints is a perfectly respectable genetic testing company and plenty of reputable breeders use it. They do breed panel testing that will test for all things relevant to particular breeds. Anybody selling on craigslist is not somebody I would buy from. Though I'm curious what their beliefs on OFA are.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> Paw prints is a perfectly respectable genetic testing company and plenty of reputable breeders use it. They do breed panel testing that will test for all things relevant to particular breeds. Anybody selling on craigslist is not somebody I would buy from. Though I'm curious what their beliefs on OFA are.


Thank you. I had never heard of this testing company before so I didn’t know. I, too would never buy a puppy from Craigslist. And I also would like to know about their beliefs about OFA.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I was in another thread asking about labs and found this list on the OFA site of labs that they use or accept results from.

Simply using that or any lab for "testing" doesn't mean they're doing the recommended panels for breed and variety. 

https://www.ofa.org/dna-test-labs










I don't know about Craigslist, I haven't looked, but I can tell you that I saw a lot of "puppies for rehoming" on the Canadian equivalent. Puppies which were only 6 weeks old at the time of the posting! And that was just one of 2 or 3 litters from the same source within a month or so.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

I'm moving this thread to our Poodle Breeding subforum since it's a better fit there and so more interested parties will read it.

*****

Here's the list of all laboratories endorsed by the OFA.

Paw Prints is top of the line in DNA testing and included in the OFA. Like a few other test sites, e.g. BetterBred, if you test your dog there, you have the option to make the results available online. They both have very informative blogs too.

It's to the advantage of any buyer to learn which tests are ideal for their breed. The OFA screenings are narrow and doesn't cover all the available genetic testing available. For example, here are their basic recommendations for Toy Poodles, Miniature Poodles, Standard Poodles. A buyer could see those screenings have been done, but not others such as:










Thus a buyer could have a false sense of security from OFA recommended screenings which won't show if a dog has one of the other genetic conditions like DM or Von Willebrand for which a small but significant number of poodles have a carrier gene or have two genes and will be affected. (Btw, that lab and nearly all the others routinely have 40% discounts, sometimes 50% discounts, so that final cost could be around $137 per dog for a poodle panel.)

It's important for a buyer to know which tests have been omitted. If I see the results online or in the *original* paperwork for all the tests except one, it raises a red flag. 

IMHO, if a breeder has done extensive testing, I wouldn't assume they're a byb or puppy mill even if they're selling puppies on Craigslist. They may have only one or two nice females and only breed once a year and not be connected to show world or performance sports, but at least they had the common sense and ethics to do testing before breeding. It's up to the buyer at that point if they simply want a genetically healthy poodle and to know what a well-bred poodle looks like. 

It's disturbing to think that some puppy mills could have stepped up their game by now doing genetic health testing since the living conditions are horrible. Reading fmj's "Buying a puppy safely" should eliminate buying from of these in most cases.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

Thank you Vita for putting this thread in a better place. I had used the Poodle ad as an example. There are so many so-called “designer dog” puppies available it’s sickening. I didn’t look at a lot of those ads, but my gut feeling is that they may advertise they’ve done the testing, but for whatever reason they might give, no one actually can see the results, leading me to believe they were never done.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I just checked my email and have a response to my 2nd email. I asked him to provide the link to where I could see the test results for the parents of the puppies now available. He basically told me I could call him to “discuss” testing. Still makes me wonder...


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

jojogal001 said:


> ...He basically told me I could call him to “discuss” testing. Still makes me wonder...


This is for pure poodle pups? If you do call him, please do tell us which tests he has on each parent and from which lab. It would be interesting to know what he says.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

Yes, pure standard poodles. I am going to call this weekend. I'm really curious as to what he wants to "discuss' about DNA testing, and once again I will ask for a link where I can go view them myself. If a toy breeder was giving me this runaround, I'd run the other way! But yes, I will definitely update what he says about it.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I'm sorry there's been no update yet as I haven't had the opportunity to call. I'll do my best to call him today. I also want to ask why he advertises on craigslist, which is supposed to remove all ads by breeders.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

So I just got off the phone with Justin. I was pretty blown away by his answers: not at all what I expected. He says he is a hobby breeder and usually has 3 litters a year. Pups they keep for breeding are shown to CH with a handler. He told me they use both Pawprint and Embark testing. Once a person is interested in a puppy/litter he provides the names of both sire and dam and whatever is needEd to view Their pedigrees and the testing that’s been done. He says they don’t do OFA because there are different vets who can differ greatly. For instance, one says _poor hips_ and the next finds the dog at _great hips. _He says it’s not worth the money to have such varying determinations.


All his dogs live in the house and the puppies are raised with 8 year old twins. There are no kennels on his property. I didn’t ask how many dogs he’s got but I’m assuming not very many. He gets the puppies used to the sound and feel of clippers and dryers starting at 4 weeks. While he can’t do the face that young, he still gets them acclimated to grooming. I forget what ages he will start these, but will start litter box training and then begin their outdoor potty training. He doesn’t let them out of the house until 6 weeks old when he gives them their first vaccines. I didn’t ask if he gets health certificates, but I’m pretty sure he does as it’s required by law here to sell puppies, and they have to be at least 8 weeks old.

I asked why he advertises on Craigslist when so many there are assumed to be BYB and puppy mills. He said his degree is in marketing and free advertising is free advertising. He does the work to weed out people that would not be good fits for his puppies. He and his wife both work full time jobs which is why only 3 litters a year. They won’t take on more than can be properly attended to and socialized. They also are on puppy find and next day puppy. ( Not pleases with that myself).

They have no website, but can be found on Facebook at:

CarpenterCaro Puppies


I am certain I left out a whole lot of questions and issues to be addressed, but he wasn’t “squirming” to answer all that I asked. He sounded very confidant and proud of his dogs and how they are raised.

Like I said I was taken by surprise! I’d made a judgment about them just because they advertise on Craigslist. I’m still a tiny bit Leary about that choice. So what do you all think? I’ve never talked to a hobby breeder that do all he says they do.

His prices vary, and sadly yes, also because of colors, but also depend which line he has bred. So a Spoo puppy there can cost between $1200 and $3500.

ETA: He doesn’t take deposits until the puppies are on the ground. He gets word out to those who’ve expressed the desire to get a puppy. The deposit is $500 (I forgot to ask if that was refundable).


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Hmmm? I think he sounds pretty good, but there are a few things I don't like, him not doing OFA, the websites he advertises on, and I don't like that his prices vary with colors.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I think that's just a stupid fake reason to not do OFA. Vets don't grade the x rays. You have a vet do the x rays and then they send them to OFA which then sends you the results. Unless I'm mistaken. But the one thing that can differ is how the hips appear based on the vet's skill in positioning correctly for x rays. But I'm fairly sure OFA will not grade hips with bad x rays. They will tell you to resend new ones. My guess is he doesn't do OFA because it costs money he doesn't want to spend. Blegh.

Also, if the pups he keeps are shown to CH with a handler, I see no evidence. I do not see any evidence that the dogs he breeds have been shown at all. They simply state that they are from "champion lines" but never state anything about the dogs themselves. And I get the feeling from the ads that they would definitely say if the parents were CH. I don't see any mention of showing anywhere on his facebook at all, though it's possible I've missed something. But I don't think so.

I would never buy from such an individual, but I'm sure they're better than the average backyard breeder. They probably do a _relatively_ good job with their dogs. Just not to the standard I would look for. And also if he is lying about the showing I really don't like that.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I'm just looking at the Facebook page and I'm not done do yet, but they had a leap year weekend discount sale for their puppies.?


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

Very interesting points you all have made. I didn’t spend any time on the Facebook page so didn’t see for myself what you’re talking about. I guess he could have lied about having his dogs shown. I think maybe the answers he gave me may have been _too _good. See? I can be suckered in. Like I said his answers took me by surprise. I think you’re right about him not wanting to spend money. “Not worth the money” came up more than once.

At least I’m not looking to buy a spoo puppy. I was suspicious that they didn’t have their own website. When I bred rats, I had a Facebook page, but also a website that was much more than mainly pictures. Went much more in depth than I did on Facebook. But I wasn’t advertising on Facebook either. It was mainly for new and older owners to be able to see all the “fun” pics that didn’t go on the site, and where soon-to-be owners could watch their babies grow up. You’d think after having bred rats and having such standards among many other things I’d be less inclined to believe what someone says. Maybe that’s why he wouldn’t tell me anything in email as he is really compelling when speaking to him. I don’t know. Maybe I did get duped?

This is really great for me to see all the points you and others will bring up. It’s kind of like “practice” for when it’s time to seriously look for my toy puppy. I also thought the pricing was a bit low on that end. It surprised me to hear the pricing after all he said. I do think he’s better than a BYB but am glad he only has 3 litters a year. Hopefully he’s not lying about that, but it’s easily checked by going back on Facebook.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

jojogal001 said:


> Very interesting points you all have made. I didn’t spend any time on the Facebook page so didn’t see for myself what you’re talking about. I guess he could have lied about having his dogs shown. I think maybe the answers he gave me may have been _too _good. See? I can be suckered in. Like I said his answers took me by surprise. I think you’re right about him not wanting to spend money. “Not worth the money” came up more than once.
> 
> At least I’m not looking to buy a spoo puppy. I was suspicious that they didn’t have their own website. When I bred rats, I had a Facebook page, but also a website that was much more than mainly pictures. Went much more in depth than I did on Facebook. But I wasn’t advertising on Facebook either. It was mainly for new and older owners to be able to see all the “fun” pics that didn’t go on the site, and where soon-to-be owners could watch their babies grow up. You’d think after having bred rats and having such standards among many other things I’d be less inclined to believe what someone says. Maybe that’s why he wouldn’t tell me anything in email as he is really compelling when speaking to him. I don’t know. Maybe I did get duped?
> 
> This is really great for me to see all the points you and others will bring up. It’s kind of like “practice” for when it’s time to seriously look for my toy puppy. I also thought the pricing was a bit low on that end. It surprised me to hear the pricing after all he said. I do think he’s better than a BYB but am glad he only has 3 litters a year. Hopefully he’s not lying about that, but it’s easily checked by going back on Facebook.


Well he also has two males that he studs out, and he has ads for stud service everywhere. I can't find evidence... but I wouldn't be super surprised to find he is willing to stud to other breeds. He certainly doesn't say he isn't. One ad in particular gives different pricing based on whether it's with AKC registration for litters or not, which gives me an icky feeling and says he's not too picky. He never states full names of his dogs anywhere, which is something I expect from breeders that show in conformation or sport.

Another thing to consider about pricing... the reason good breeders don't make money is they have a lot of expenses. Showing a dog is very expensive, and then there's also the health testing of which OFA is the most pricey. So if you don't have those costs... you could make quite a bit of profit. He probably is charging the prices that he is able to get people to pay. Otherwise he wouldn't be pricing differently based on color.

They do look nicely groomed.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

I'm enjoying the conversation but as Super Mod need to intervene for a moment. Speculation of this sort a good example in how rumors and damaged reputations can start, and then has the potential to snowball:

From Raindrops:
... And also if he is lying about the showing I really don't like that.

From Jojogal01:
... I guess he could have lied about having his dogs shown... Maybe I did get duped?... I do think he’s better than a BYB but am glad he only has 3 litters a year. Hopefully he’s not lying about that...



I'll give an example of how negative, speculative gossip plays out.

Neighbor A speculates: _She says she has a degree in XYZ, and her income is from working remotely from home processing contracts. If she lying about her degree, I really don't like that._

Neighbor B snowballs: _I guess she could have lied about her degree, but maybe I got duped. I hope she's not lying about how she gets her money._



We will never know what others are doing *unless we ask them*. Yes, they might fudge or outright lie. Without evidence, however, when we speculate we are not being fair to them because what they've said could be the truth. When in doubt, go to the source and ask.

It's fair to say you don't like how someone is running their breeding program and to point out factual observations, like this:

Quote from Fenris-wolf:
Hmmm... there are a few things I don't like, him not doing OFA, the websites he advertises on, and I don't like that his prices vary with colors.


Thus, there's no need to negatively speculate on things we don't know about, since there are already things we do know about.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Last night I did some internet searches based on info presented in the thread. I plan to try several ways of presenting the information.

Carpenter Caro poodles "factual info" from the internet
Without opinion or comments. Clarifications only are added.





























Also Emperor Ling, pictured elsewhere, 4 studs total named.




























Dams: Lady Lucille Ball, Lady Lucinda, Empress Lola, Princess Lala, 4 total named.



















continued next post due to photo limits


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

See date of arrival







Litter arrived soon after 1-18 date of posting







Litter arrived soon after 1-18 date of posting







New Partner announcement 3-2


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Oh boy, can't wait for the opinions/comments! Its nice I'm not the only insomniac on PF.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

I'm trying to include some of Rose's screenshots and add comments, but pressed the Post Reply button too soon and the photos didn't come through; I guess there were too many. I deleted it and so I'll try again minus your photos and did my own copy n' paste of one from PPG. 

Here are my thoughts:

This was excellent detective work, Rose. The biggest red flag for me is that the breeder has not *publicly* posted the DNA results on Paw Prints Genetics. 









PPG consumers have the option to not share test results. I have seen where breeders - including top show breeders - chose to not do this when their dog(s) have a carrier or affected gene for one or more of the genetic conditions. 

Typically if a sire OR a dam is a carrier, the breeder will explain to the buyer that the pups will be either healthy or a carrier of that condition, but will never develop it. But if a dog's gene is in the "affected" category, it will develop the disease. If a both a sire and a dam are carriers of the same condition, some will be carriers and some will be affected. 

When a breeder doesn't share this info publicly, it gives the impression that he/she is hiding bad news, which is a distinct possibility. 

Also Jojogal01 said this:



jojogal001 said:


> ... He told me they use both Pawprint and Embark testing. Once a person is interested in a puppy/litter he provides the names of both sire and dam and whatever is needed to view. Their pedigrees and the testing that’s been done.


This is a sales technique to get the buyer excited about a product, in this case, puppies. Once your emotions are involved, it's easy to "explain" possible problems, in this case possible genetic issues - if the buyer knows to ask. 

I also note that he told Jogogal that he _*uses*_ Pawprints and Embark, _*without*_ mentioning which conditions were tested or the results. 



jojogal001 said:


> ...He said his degree is in marketing...


Uh, yeah, that's pretty obvious now. Buyer beware.

Finding info on Embark is tricky but generally possible unless the dog has a common name like King or Queenie. You type in https: //my.embarkvet. com/dog/DOG'S NAME and it usually pulls up. Maybe I did it wrong, but nothing came up on four of the listed dogs.



jojogal001 said:


> Pups they keep for breeding are shown to CH with a handler.


Rose next shows that none of the dogs listed that she searched thru AKC are champions. So do these dogs have different names than the ones searched for, or are not listed which would be odd? *Or was Raindrops' intuition on target?*



Raindrops said:


> *... And also if he is lying about the showing I really don't like that.*


The problem I had as a Super Mod is the statement suggesting lying and then others think negatively of the target. Our intuitions are sometimes right, but when they're wrong, the other person is disrespected and mistreated, and it snowballs. If you've ever been at the receiving end of this, it's extremely stressful and it hurts. 

Breeding issues in particular are at the top of the list for chaos and even flame wars and members quitting at pet forums. This is why the Updated Forum Rules focus so strongly on respect issues and to use concrete observations to critique rather than speculations. I take no pleasure in pointing out this b/c then some members might take it personally, and that's not my intent.

The best we can say regarding showing is that _no evidence so far_ is seen that any of this breeder's dogs are AKC champions. However, it's also noted from Rose's second to last photo that he partners with another breeder. It's possible these show dogs are co-owned and/or under the partner's name and/or in their custody or shown in a non-AKC venue.

As I said earlier: 



Vita said:


> There's a lot we do know, but there's a lot we don't know.


Well we know more now, but it's still up to potential buyers to call and ask for more information and to decide if certain things are deal breakers or not. 

To me, they do have beautiful poodles, but the absence of public DNA info is something I'd want to look at in the original paperwork to see which if any tests are missing and if the sire and/or dam are carriers (or affected). If looking only for a pet to never show or breed, carrier status in most conditions, for me, would not be a deal breaker since carriers are asymptomatic.

The part about his telling Jogogal in having champion dogs. In absence of seeing proof of on AKC (or other registry), would also likely deter me from buying a pup from this breeder since IF this is untrue, mainly b/c I'd wonder what other information could be untrue or omitted? 



Newport said:


> Oh boy, can't wait for the opinions/comments! Its nice I'm not the only insomniac on PF.


Me too.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

I tried to see if these dogs have UKC championships, but there was not a clear way to do that on the UKC website if you don’t own the dog. I sent an email asking for general clarification how a puppy buyer could verify CH status.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I agree that presenting something as true or concluding something whether positive or negative without sufficient information is not in anyone's best interests but if we are allowed only to speculate about or discuss things we do know, that seems pointless.

The questions have to be thought of and raised before they can be answered. Newer members especially won't know what to look for as pros or cons in a breeder search unless they're able to see both. When they have as much info as we can offer, then they can make informed decisions on what's important to them.

Speculation itself is neutral so long as it's presented as an opinion. If my opinion is negative and unfounded, that risk is on me - no one else.

"I think..." "I feel..." "I believe..." "It seems..." etc are all ways to introduce an opinion which may be positive or negative.

"If" not "Is", unless it can be proven.

All that said, some of us have been here long enough to see the Negative Express, whether opinions or facts are cited, become a runaway train after picking up a head of steam which then derails and explodes. I think that's what Vita is trying to keep from happening.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The partner was announced less than 2 weeks ago. I didn't search on any of their dogs but the PuppyFind connection is enough to rule them both out for me. I am not suggesting anything about their business practices, either of them, but I don't like who they choose to associate with. Too bad because his dogs look quite nice to my untrained eye. 

"Humane Society of the United States re PuppyFind

In fact, many of the puppy mills that have been featured in our Horrible Hundred report have routinely advertised on PuppyFind.com.

Despite their record of poor care for their animals, many of these sellers have primarily high ratings and positive reviews on PuppyFind. That’s just another part of the deception built around this online promoter of puppy mills.
PuppyFind claimed that since the reviews come from website users, the website itself is immune from liability under the federal Communications Decency Act. But PuppyFind deletes negative reviews about sellers, and the lawsuit alleges they do so for the purpose of supporting artificially high ratings. HSUS attorney Kim Ockene argued before the court that a website cannot be entirely immune from perpetuating consumer fraud, which is exactly what we believe is involved in this case."

My opinion is that if he wants to be taken seriously by discerning and knowledgeable prospective owners he'll need to place proof of his statements where this level of sleuthing isn't necessary and find less questionable ways of advertising.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

I heard back from UKC. There is no way to verify if a dog has been awarded a UKC championship or grand championship unless you know the dog’s name and the date they were shown. Otherwise you have to rely on the dog’s owner to show you the championship certificate. I was disappointed to hear that it cannot be easily verified online.

Note: I’m not assuming this particular breeder was saying his dog’s have UKC CH. I just wanted to look there when Rose’s search did not reveal an AKC CH, and was surprised to hit an information wall.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Vita, I'm a bit confused, and I'm hoping you can offer some clarification here. Earlier I stated that I looked through all his ads including his multiple ads on different platforms advertising stud services and litters, and he specifically mentions that his dogs are from championship lines but clearly never includes any CH designation, which is a lack of evidence for his claim that their dogs are shown to CH status by a handler. I even looked for any evidence of showing of any of his dogs, regardless of breeding status but found nothing.

jojogal001's question was "Like I said I was taken by surprise! I’d made a judgment about them just because they advertise on Craigslist. I’m still a tiny bit Leary about that choice. So what do you all think? "

I responded with my opinion of him based on my research, including the statement "And also *if* he is lying about the showing I really don't like that."

I didn't state that he _was_ lying, but I was giving my take if that proved to be the case. I also mentioned above that statement where I could have missed something in my brief period of sleuthing, to make it clear that I wasn't assuming that my hunch was correct.

And then later in your post, you state


Vita said:


> The part about his telling Jogogal in having champion dogs. In absence of seeing proof of on AKC (or other registry), would also likely deter me from buying a pup from this breeder since *IF this is untrue*, mainly b/c I'd wonder what other information could be untrue or omitted?


Now, my issue is that I fail to see how what you said is any different than what I said. I was also basing my question off of observations of postings by the breeder, and clearly stated that this was a hypothetical meant to give a general opinion. I want us all to understand the rules and be respectful, but I think this is a very vague rule to apply. I certainly agree that we should not take our observations as proof that his dogs haven't been shown. But I also am not going to call him up and bother him because I see that as a bit of a waste of somebody's time if I'm not interested. If somebody is interested in one of his pups, then they now know what things would be good to ask about. As you said, even if he verbally says something, it's no proof that it's true and we would need documentation to be sure.

Thank you for any clarification. I also want this forum to be respectful and to help educate. I have learned so much here, and a lot of that was from opinions expressed and dialogue of exactly this type. I do think there is a balance that can be reached.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Thank you for your question. The heart of the matter is when a person introduces the word "lying" in a conversation, it plants seeds, or rather weeds, of the target being spoken about. 

Examples;

"What if those climate change scientists are lying to appease their funding source?"
"What if your new boyfriend is lying about not having another girlfriend?"
"Maybe your boss is lying about giving you a raise in the next six months and just wants to keep there on low pay."
"I was looking out my window and saw my neighbor's husband get home at 3am. I hope he's not lying to his wife and cheating."

Suddenly extreme doubt is introduced into the listener's mind. It becomes more than what's the data from climate change sources, or not knowing the new boyfriend well, or whether your boss wants more time to see your work rather than manipulating you to stay, or in the last example, the husband could be getting home late from a family emergency. We don't know, but in all of these examples the reputation of the person being spoken about is now tainted. And imagine if you're the innocent target of any of the four above examples. *You'd be livid*.

Better:

"There are alternative arguments and data about the causes of global warming, so I'm not convinced."
"I hope that you get to know your boyfriend, or any boyfriend for that matter, really well before trusting your heart and body to him."
"What's your boss's track record for following through on his promises, and how is the financial health of the firm?
On example #4, the window looker should keep that information to herself since her neighbor's coming and going is no one's business.
These are similar skills helpful at a Thanksgiving dinner with a hoard of relatives you haven't seen in ten years. 



jojogal001 said:


> ...Pups they keep for breeding are shown to CH with a handler.


As the conversation evolved with additional info from Rose and a little digging around by me:



Vita said:


> ... In absence of seeing proof of on AKC (or other registry), would also likely deter me from buying a pup from this breeder since IF this is untrue, mainly b/c I'd wonder what other information could be untrue or omitted?





Raindrops said:


> ... Now, my issue is that I fail to see how what you said is any different than what I said. I was also basing my question off of observations of postings by the breeder, and clearly stated that this was a hypothetical meant to give a general opinion. I want us all to understand the rules and be respectful, but I think this is a very vague rule to apply. I certainly agree that we should not take our observations as proof that his dogs haven't been shown...


Hmm. I understand your point, and there is a gray area in communication, i.e., striving to be diplomatic versus the often harsh approach common on the Internet. There are times when _in both cases_, you are saying the pretty much the same thing, so it comes down to presentation.

"She's fat", versus "She's full figured."

However, we've seen other threads on this and other forums, social media, the nightly news, and all the way to the highest political levels in the land where one or more parties are motivated by malice or an agenda. It gets ugly fast, and then one party or another has to fight to clear the air and/or resolve it. Flame wars, gang wars, corporate takeover wars, world wars, it's endless. 

I digressed, I'm getting tired.

So as this thread conversation flowed, it became evident there was a lack of _available_ proof of champion dogs, not to say there isn't proof somewhere. (Hums _Somewhere Over The Rainbow_, lol, I _really_ need to go to bed).

The best I can offer here is that after finding an absence champion dogs, it felt it to be a safe observation to say IF that was untrue... blah blah, rather than saying if he's a liar blah blah.

Hope this and the examples clarify.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I see your distinction. Instead of using an emotionally charged word or phrase, look for a neutral substitute. That's what I was intending to try when I wrote that I was thinking about doing three versions of that last bit of research. It's not necessarily an issue to everyone, but if it helps keep PF a comfortable place, I'll try.

Time for our thesauruses .


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Rose n Poos said:


> I see your distinction. Instead of using an emotionally charged word or phrase, look for a neutral substitute. That's what I was intending to try when I wrote that I was thinking about doing three versions of that last bit of research. It's not necessarily an issue to everyone, but if it helps keep PF a comfortable place, I'll try.
> 
> Time for our thesauruses .


I'm pretty sure I have one somewhere?


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Rose n Poos said:


> ... *Instead of using an emotionally charged word or phrase, look for a neutral substitute...*


Bravo, Rose, and thank you. You summarized in one sentence what it took me an hour of thinking and writing examples to convey this idea. I just added this to Rule #1 as a guiding tip for everyone.

Thank you Raindrops too for bringing this up so it could be clarified. It is much appreciated.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

jojogal001 said:


> So I just got off the phone with Justin. I was pretty blown away by his answers: not at all what I expected. He says he is a hobby breeder and usually has 3 litters a year. Pups they keep for breeding are shown to CH with a handler. He told me they use both Pawprint and Embark testing. Once a person is interested in a puppy/litter he provides the names of both sire and dam and whatever is needEd to view Their pedigrees and the testing that’s been done. He says they don’t do OFA because there are different vets who can differ greatly. For instance, one says _poor hips_ and the next finds the dog at _great hips. _He says it’s not worth the money to have such varying determinations.
> 
> 
> All his dogs live in the house and the puppies are raised with 8 year old twins. There are no kennels on his property. I didn’t ask how many dogs he’s got but I’m assuming not very many. He gets the puppies used to the sound and feel of clippers and dryers starting at 4 weeks. While he can’t do the face that young, he still gets them acclimated to grooming. I forget what ages he will start these, but will start litter box training and then begin their outdoor potty training. He doesn’t let them out of the house until 6 weeks old when he gives them their first vaccines. I didn’t ask if he gets health certificates, but I’m pretty sure he does as it’s required by law here to sell puppies, and they have to be at least 8 weeks old.
> ...


First of all, three litters of year, especially if they are standard poodles, is not a "hobby" breeder! Standard poodles often have 10-12 puppies in a litter, so three litters a year is far more that most reputable breeders would consider. I checked several places and saw no evidence that he has placed a dog with a handler - or that any of his dogs have ever been shown. The fact that he does not make pedigrees available is suspicious and his comment about OFA is totally incorrect (when a dog's hip x-ray is submitted to OFA it is evaluated by three randomly selected board-certified veterinary radiologists). 

So I suggest you avoid this breeder - too many negatives!


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## Jassny (Apr 22, 2021)

jojogal001 said:


> Thank you. I had never heard of this testing company before so I didn’t know. I, too would never buy a puppy from Craigslist. And I also would like to know about their beliefs about OFA.


I was told by Justin that the mother of at least one litter lives with her guardian family. Personality that’s a scratch for me.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

One more observation - I took a look at their Facebook page - at the end of the long string of pictures is one of a standard poodle that is white with black spots. I have never, ever, heard of dalmatian spotting in a poodle, so I strongly suspect that dog is a crossbred. So for many reasons this is a breeder to be avoided!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

This is an old thread that seems to have run its course. For anyone interested in the topic of ticking, here’s a brief overview:

_“The ticking gene is unusual, its not fully understood yet, Its not linked to the Parti gene but is only seen on Parti poodles. Dogs that have ticking do not show the ticking at birth, it develops over time it can take up to a year for the ticking to finish developing. You can have light ticking with just a couple of spots here and there to very heavy ticking where the spots merge until the dog almost appears to be solid in color.”_









Parti


WindSwept Poodles



www.windsweptpoodle.com





Feel free to start a new thread to discuss further.


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