# dogs may prefer praise to treats



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That is interesting even though the study is small. I shall Google to find it later.

Javelin definitely prefers praise to treats and won't take treats from people he doesn't know. Lily will steal treats even from people she doesn't know, but also works very happily for verbal markers that have clear meanings to her.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

For mine there would be a lot of variables - how well do they know and like the human, how good are the treats, who is encouraging them most, what other distractions are there... Poppy will work happily for praise and fun, but is far more enthused by a treat reward. Sophy very definitely has a pay scale when it comes to learning something new, and won't undersell herself. She'd make a good Dog Union negotiator!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Grace is a performer. She will work for applauds. She likes treats but a "good girl" from daddy is better. She curls nose to tail and just loves praise from me. She has been taught not to accept treats from anyone but myself or my wife Judy (Who is very sick) People she knows and has been introduced to are meeted and greeted. Those who are regular visitors or family are subject to excitement and borderline bad behavior. (jumping and whining) Any one who has not been introduced is given scrutiny from a distance. Only when I give encouragement and permission will she greet. No food found is eaten without permission. (Gracie Eat!) I never carry treats anymore. Food at home is plentiful Grace grazes and will eat a little often but not to excess. Her food manners are good she is polite and will leave food placed on the floor in front of her until given it. (Gracie Eat) She will look at you and give you the (sad eye treatment) from a distance until told to (Get on your Rug!) After eating I customarily leave a little on my plate. I place my plate on the floor and walk away. I expect to come back and find the food still there until (Gracie Eat!) She is happy with this routine. Routine is everything. She hates it changed. She imposes routine on me!!
Eric


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

My dog is definitely food driven. Although I give her verbal praise and petting, it's clearly the food that she works for. 

I use her regular food for training - no special treats. I wish praise was enough. I tried using toys in training but she doesn't seem to respond to those either.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Skylar said:


> My dog is definitely food driven. Although I give her verbal praise and petting, it's clearly the food that she works for.
> 
> I use her regular food for training - no special treats. I wish praise was enough. I tried using toys in training but she doesn't seem to respond to those either.


Skylar you will probably find that as her behaviors become better fixed (well known) that she will gain confidence and do what she is told without food. Then you reserve your food for teaching new more complex things. As long as you aren't feeding bricks of liverwurst for every sit using lots of treats for a young dog who is learning is just fine.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Trulee might be the only puppy that I have ever had who is equally praise and food motivated, probably a bit more praise than food, but I have to say that I believe the study may be faulty - although Timi is entirely food motivated, only rewarded by praise in that she believes it might be a precursor to food, there isn't a doubt in my mind that separated by a maze from me in an environment outside the home, she would choose to find me over food every time.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Mine become instant slobbering idiots when treats come out, Beatrice especially so she will go through all of her tricks rapid succession eventually doing what I ask. So if I want her to do something it is without treats but with quiet praise and that she is spot on about all of them are.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thinking about it, there is something that Sophy does without needing treats or even much by way of praise - finding people and cats. I had a couple more examples while we were out with my sisters and mislaid one or other of them - asked to find one by name she would set off in a direction where I knew they could not be, and then, of course, proved to be exactly right, getting both thanks and an apology. I think she gets satisfaction from being much, much better at it than I am...


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

Tell that to my maltese that rushes me out of the house every morning so he can have his cookie before I go to work.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Skylar you will probably find that as her behaviors become better fixed (well known) that she will gain confidence and do what she is told without food. Then you reserve your food for teaching new more complex things. As long as you aren't feeding bricks of liverwurst for every sit using lots of treats for a young dog who is learning is just fine.



Oh Timi will do a chain of many behaviors with the promise of food at the end, but with no food around, she will argue with me for five minutes before she listens (at least at home, outside the home she knows that mama has her back and is much more in synch with me).
By the way, Trulee has her sit and down with only a few minutes practice this morning. She even does the sit from the down, no problem!


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Cleo is 1000% food motivated. If she only gets praise for something, she keeps pushing her face into my hands like she's trying to remind me. I am phasing out food rewards for things she knows really well, but even then I have to give her a treat once in a while so she knows it's a possibility. She never forgets getting a treat, either - there are people and places I can't walk her past without her planting her feet and trying to go back, because she got a treat there one time in the past.

Archie is borderline obsessed with me, so getting to be with me and get praise is a big motivator for a lot of his behavior. If there's no risk of losing me, though, he needs a treat or a toy in order to learn new behavior. He's also not as motivated by praise from strangers, though he does love a big celebration from anyone ("Good dog" means nothing from someone else, but "Yay! Hurray! What a good dog!" makes him pretty happy).

The funny thing I've noticed with Archie is that he's usually much more excited to do tricks in exchange for treats than he is to just get a treat for nothing. It's like just getting a treat is fine, but the combination of knowing he did a good job AND getting a treat is amazing.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Trulee LOVES applause lol! I tell you, she was born in the wrong body, she would make a dream performance dog for someone!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Here are two real world scenarios from today for those of you who think your dogs are all about the food to consider.

1. I was at my obedience club with Lily and Javelin and had finished my classes, but my mom and her mpoo had stayed behind to practice a couple of rally exercises. Javelin was in his crate. I had taken Lily out to show something to my mom. Specifically I was showing her the five cookie exercise that I mentioned in my ring prep thread for Javelin. I had only five little tiny bits of a pupperoni type treat. I showed my mom what to do with her boy and used up all five of the little treats by giving them to Lily for the demo. My mom then took out her little treats for her dog and Lily took off straight to see grandma (very naughty). I was able to call Lily back and have her do a drop even though she knew I had no food but my mom did. Although Lily loves getting treats she clearly knows she needs to listen to me even if I don't have them. She got great praise and I reached down to pet her to tell her I liked that she had returned. She was not "disappointed" in not getting fed. This situation was very controlled but is an approximation of what one needs out of an emergency recall/control of your dog.

2. I was out in the yard with Javelin a few minutes ago. It has finally cooled off enough for dogs to want to run in the yard and he took off flying towards the chickens (a source of great excitement to him). It only took one "Javvy Come" to have him return to me briskly.

Could you reasonably expect your dog to ignore those kinds of high level distractions if there was no food involved? Being able to count on their centripetal attraction for you and to be able to use that to overrule any other kind of distraction without food involved is an important life skill.

Separately, one of the OTCh (multi time) handlers who trains at my club just got a puppy. He is now about 15 weeks old and she had brought him to the club the last two weeks. She was the only person to work the open class today and her older dog (a three year old with a UDX and a bunch of OTCh points) wasn't working up to the level she expects from him. We talked and she said the older dog loves playing with the puppy but that he doesn't like having to wait on the sideline when she works with the baby dog. She brought the puppy into the ring to noodle around while she worked the rest of the routine with her adult. His work did improve, but more importantly, the puppy has a super recall and clearly has remarkable centripetal attraction for her without a morsel of food involved.

I did download the paper referred to in the original post here. It is 30 pages long, so it will take a bit of time before I get to finish a critical read of it, but after I do I will tell you details about the work and its findings.

In the meantime (and please don't think I am trying to criticize any of you for using food) teach that attention to owner/handler that can be a lifesaver and get the food out of the picture unless you plan to walk around with bits of cheese and hotdogs in your pockets forever and ever. Teach using treats, reinforce really good performances of good work with treats, but get yourselves to a point where your dog will be reliable with no food in sight or reach or smell distance.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Here are two real world scenarios from today for those of you who think your dogs are all about the food to consider.
> 
> 1. I was at my obedience club with Lily and Javelin and had finished my classes, but my mom and her mpoo had stayed behind to practice a couple of rally exercises. Javelin was in his crate. I had taken Lily out to show something to my mom. Specifically I was showing her the five cookie exercise that I mentioned in my ring prep thread for Javelin. I had only five little tiny bits of a pupperoni type treat. I showed my mom what to do with her boy and used up all five of the little treats by giving them to Lily for the demo. My mom then took out her little treats for her dog and Lily took off straight to see grandma (very naughty). I was able to call Lily back and have her do a drop even though she knew I had no food but my mom did. Although Lily loves getting treats she clearly knows she needs to listen to me even if I don't have them. She got great praise and I reached down to pet her to tell her I liked that she had returned. She was not "disappointed" in not getting fed. This situation was very controlled but is an approximation of what one needs out of an emergency recall/control of your dog.
> 
> ...



Well sure that is ideal, but I am just not sure that it is something that every dog will do.
Trulee yes, a thousand percent. But Timi, not even close. I always have dry treats in my pocket when we go out, and she knows it.
Besides, can you really say that Lilly had no expectation that you might have more treats when you called her?


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Asta is praise motivated - so much that I finally quit bringing treats to his classes!


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Lily, what are some ways you create that attraction without using rewards?

You can get a treat-trained dog not to need one using a variable reward system. Cleo's "quiet" command (which also doubles as "go to crate" when there's one nearby) is very reliable because she doesn't know whether she's going to get a treat or not. I don't actually have to give her one most of the time anymore, but I do still reinforce with treats from time to time so that she knows she _might_ get a treat (or even a bunch of treats) if she listens. It helps keep her motivated. The idea of a possible treat can overcome other temptations more effectively for her than just my happiness.

Now her outdoor recall is fantastic, and I rarely reinforce that with food. That's because she's come to see me as her safe spot when she's outside, and so it's important to her that she knows where I am and that she can get to me when she needs/wants to. So all I have to do is step away a little bit while she's distracted, then call her, and she'll come barreling over to me. I don't know how you'd recreate that in a training setting, though, as in her case it's a result of how fearful she was when I first got her. She essentially taught herself that Away=Scary, while Near=Safe/Happy/Fun. 

Archie has the second half of that formula down pretty well, but he's not afraid of being away from me as long as I'm somewhere in the vicinity. As long as he knows roughly where I am and he doesn't think I'm going to leave him, he tends to make his own decisions about whether he comes to me or not...usually based on whether what I'm doing/holding is more interesting than whatever else is near him at the time.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think every dog can do the kinds of things I expect of mine and that they should reliably do so or else they need to be kept on leash so that they can be kept close and safe. 

Tiny Poodles, Lily had seen my empty hands and she knows if I have food in my pockets (which I didn't). Nearly all of the time (95% food free for her) that I am training with her I have no food on my person. She has no expectation of food and in fact will obsess about the food rather than work if she knows I have it. So the answer for her is that she really does what she does for me for the social rewards of getting to spend interactive time with me and for the praise and play she gets from me when released from working. For her a treat is a pleasant surprise and in used just to tell her she has done an excellent job.

Good for you Asta's Mom. You will see great progress in class with your pup not being concerned over how to get the treat.

lisasgirl with Javelin I just ran away from him a lot in the yard and called him in silly voices and he learned to want to stay close to me. Mostly I gave him play time with a toy or praise and petting. Treats were always a variable reinforcer for him. It is totally fine to teach a behavior with treats as long as you use that variable reinforcement schedule starting early on and increasing the number of repetitions between food treats as quickly as possible. You should also make sure that the treats are given for just the very best performances of the behavior you want. Dogs will learn to associate the extra special rewards with those very high quality executions of what they are being told to to.

I do use food as a reward in teaching. If you look here http://www.poodleforum.com/24-perfo...-hunting/205393-javelins-road-ring-ready.html at post #64 you will see a description of the five cookie game as an exercise that promotes heads up attention. I've only been doing this with him for five days and he already is on board with the idea that heads up is how he should be at my side when working. I will continue the five cookie game for a long time to fix that behavior, but eventually will only need to do it on a once in a while basis to remind him to pay attention. It isn't that you shouldn't use food as a tool if your dog likes it, but the food should be little bits of something fairly simple and should be given with planning as to why you are giving it. Helping a dog that you are teaching to understand what you want them to do is one thing, but walking around with a stick of string cheese dangling over your dog's head and saying that the dog knows how to heel is another.

With Archie I would not allow him a choice about whether to return to you or not. If you don't think he will return to you under certain conditions teach him to recall on a long line or a flexi (if you can use it safely, no trees, shrubs etc. to get tangled in) under those conditions where you doubt he will come. Play something super fun with him when he comes quickly and then toss a ball for him so that he knows coming to you is fun. You have to make yourself more important, fun and interesting than the things he thinks he can ignore you for.

Lily's recall is good enough that I can get her to return to me even if she sees a running cat. More importantly she really knows better than to leave in the first place.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> With Archie I would not allow him a choice about whether to return to you or not. If you don't think he will return to you under certain conditions teach him to recall on a long line or a flexi (if you can use it safely, no trees, shrubs etc. to get tangled in) under those conditions where you doubt he will come. Play something super fun with him when he comes quickly and then toss a ball for him so that he knows coming to you is fun. You have to make yourself more important, fun and interesting than the things he thinks he can ignore you for.
> 
> Lily's recall is good enough that I can get her to return to me even if she sees a running cat. More importantly she really knows better than to leave in the first place.


Thanks! These are good thoughts. I do agree that if you're always luring, then the dog really hasn't learned what you're teaching. But I can see how some dogs might need refreshers a little more often than others.

Archie is never allowed off-lead in places other than the dog park (and occasionally on hikes where I know what all the factors are), simply because he's so social that he'll choose getting to meet a person or dog over coming to me unless I make myself _very_ interesting. I'm slowly working on teaching him not to greet unless I release him to, and reinforcing recall in different creative ways, but it's definitely his #1 temptation. He'd far prefer meeting a friendly stranger to getting to chase a cat. :laugh: And it's especially difficult if the friendly stranger wants to meet him more than they want to listen to me, too. That's one reason we do group classes so often - so he can practice keeping his head on straight while there are other people and dogs around in a controlled environment.

I had him up at my sister's on Saturday to say goodbye to my little nephews (they're moving out of state). And the nephews kept pointing out that Archie's tail was wagging. They were like, "Why is he wagging his tail?" And I'd say, "Because he's happy." And then later it was, "He's still wagging his tail!" Until finally I explained that if he's in a room full of people who all want to pay attention to him, his tail is _always_ going to be wagging. That's like his dream scenario.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

For sure lisasgirl, refresh as needed and best if done out of the blue and unexpectedly. The exercise I was showing my mom was the five cookie exercise with Lily. She benefited by getting her edible rewards, but doing it was like a pleasant surprise for her and not an expectation.

Think about performance dogs in agility, obedience or rally. All of those routines, some very complex, are done only with verbal markers. You cannot touch the dog in any of those events other than to take the dog by the collar to gently guide it from place to place in novice obedience. All levels of agility, open and utility obedience and rally advanced and excellent are done off leash and hands off the dog with the exception of being able to give a little pet after the judge says exercise finished in between the obedience exercises. And in CPE agility the rules specifically state that the dog must run "naked," no collars allowed. And also for all of those activities no toys in the ring along with no food if playing by AKC rules.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> I think every dog can do the kinds of things I expect of mine and that they should reliably do so or else they need to be kept on leash so that they can be kept close and safe.
> 
> Tiny Poodles, Lily had seen my empty hands and she knows if I have food in my pockets (which I didn't). Nearly all of the time (95% food free for her) that I am training with her I have no food on my person. She has no expectation of food and in fact will obsess about the food rather than work if she knows I have it. So the answer for her is that she really does what she does for me for the social rewards of getting to spend interactive time with me and for the praise and play she gets from me when released from working. For her a treat is a pleasant surprise and in used just to tell her she has done an excellent job.
> 
> ...



Again, I think that it is great to be able to do that, I just don't think that it is in every dog's wheelhouse.
I could absolutely see it with Trulee, but not Timi. I think that moving beyond intermittent reinforcement with Timi would just make for a less responsive dog. You need to know the dog. I have had dogs like Trulee before where the great behavior was solely based upon connection and wanting to please - I could direct Taylee to turn on a dime from a distance while she was full speed going after her ball, no food used ever. I can already see that Trulee is going to be that kind of dog - I can see that just as clearly as I know that Timi will never be. And I guess that I am picking up that you think that she will kind of be a failure if she doesn't become that, and I disagree, I don't think it's a fail - I can teach Timi anything, it's just in a different way than I will teach Trulee. Timi could easily learn to do performance work where no food was allowed - I would simply teach her that the reward would come when we got out of the ring, what is so bad about that?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Tiny Poodles one has to remember that learning changes the physiology and anatomy of the brain and that the neurotransmitters that a person or dog has more of as a result of learning are the reward for good performances. For example it is known that oxytocin is a neurohormone that gives feelings of pleasure and feeling at ease.. It is produced by a nursing mother and helps her bond to her infant or her puppies and promotes being a good mother, but it is also produced when one pets a contented dog and helps us bond to the dog.

This will seem like a strange example of how the brain changes with certain behaviors, because it involves dogs that have been physically abused (sometimes severely). Researchers wanted to know why such dogs showed strong attraction to their abusers and would accept corporal punishment rather than striking out aggressively. The finding was that the dogs were getting huge endorphin surges when they were beaten and that they were addicted to the endorphin (endogenous morphine-like substances). I still haven't finished the paper on which this thread is originally based, but even though the number of dogs in the studies is small, what was being measured was changes in neurological activity that provides clear evidence of why the dogs responded as they did.

I have said several times here that I do use food to teach and increasingly rarely to reinforce behaviors, but I still think that all dogs are able to be trained to work for the bonding and neurological reinforcements that are associated with the close relationships with their people. I think we will just have to disagree about this TP.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Tiny Poodles one has to remember that learning changes the physiology and anatomy of the brain and that the neurotransmitters that a person or dog has more of as a result of learning are the reward for good performances. For example it is known that oxytocin is a neurohormone that gives feelings of pleasure and feeling at ease.. It is produced by a nursing mother and helps her bond to her infant or her puppies and promotes being a good mother, but it is also produced when one pets a contented dog and helps us bond to the dog.
> 
> This will seem like a strange example of how the brain changes with certain behaviors, because it involves dogs that have been physically abused (sometimes severely). Researchers wanted to know why such dogs showed strong attraction to their abusers and would accept corporal punishment rather than striking out aggressively. The finding was that the dogs were getting huge endorphin surges when they were beaten and that they were addicted to the endorphin (endogenous morphine-like substances). I still haven't finished the paper on which this thread is originally based, but even though the number of dogs in the studies is small, what was being measured was changes in neurological activity that provides clear evidence of why the dogs responded as they did.
> 
> I have said several times here that I do use food to teach and increasingly rarely to reinforce behaviors, but I still think that all dogs are able to be trained to work for the bonding and neurological reinforcements that are associated with the close relationships with their people. I think we will just have to disagree about this TP.



Interesting that you bring up oxytocin and endorphins and petting - because Timi is the second (Tangee the first) dog that I have had who has no, or a negative response to petting and physical closeness. I made very little headway in training it out of Tangee (perhaps I didn't try hard enough because I had two other dogs who were quite the opposite), but I have made remarkable strides in training Timi for closeness and touch using food rewards. I believe that she does actually enjoy and chooses it now, but not anywhere near as much as Trulee naturally does and not nearly enough to reinforce behaviors with no promise of a food reward. It is who she is, and you have to train the dog that you have.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

The study of measured production of oxytocin with petting was oxytocin produced by the people, as far as I know that has not been studied in dogs as a measure of whether they take pleasure in petting (and many of them really don't care much for it, especially not being patted on the head or hugged). The circumstances where elevated endorphin production was measured in abused dogs is certainly not anything to attempt to reproduce (not that anyone here would think of it!).

My main point was that the study that patk originally posted about used direct MRI measurement of brain activity and mapping of that activity to show that more dogs in the study simply preferred their person and praise from that person to food rewards as a recognition of a task well executed. That is objective and data driven. We all have our own experiences with individual dogs, but by comparison to well designed experimentation everything we think and experience with our individual dogs (including mine) is really subjective and rather anecdotal.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

thx for putting the mri test into perspective, lily cd re. i thought about mentioning it, but felt i have too little knowledge to explain its role in lending validity to a study with a small sample size. i do believe the dogs had to be trained to remain fairly still to undergo the test and have it produce usable results, which is at least one reason for that sample size. 

i do suspect there is a continuum with behavior for dogs as well as people. the interesting aspect, to me, of the study's conclusions is that we talk about dogs as food driven or prey driven, but we have left out praise driven. it's complicated further by the human idea that praise/affection/hugs form a natural combination. but maybe they don't for dogs. it seems possible that a dog that does not enjoy being hugged may still be very receptive to praise. i don't think we know enough to say.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yes, the dogs did have to be trained to lie still in the MRI (which honestly is something I would have a hard time with for myself).

Certainly since the basic structure of all mammalian brains develops from the same embryonic developmental patterning there are lots of parallels in dog, whale, sea lion, dolphin learning and behavior. And a spectrum or continuum of "personality" types is no less likely among dogs than among people. There are many performance obedience people who are members of my club that have golden retrievers. Some of them have been or are easily on their way to being OTCh's and others are struggling with the open exercises. Yes, they have different handlers, but the handlers are all using very similar methods since there really are only a few trainers that those of us with performance dogs can go to for guidance. So clearly there are many different golden personalities just at there are different people and poodle personalities. What is a good motivator for one individual may not be for another, however nearly all of the performance dogs and people I know rely much more on food to teach new behaviors and play combined with verbal markers to practice and reinforce complex behaviors. That much seems to be common in this community.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Endorphin*

"The finding was that the dogs were getting huge endorphin surges when they were beaten and that they were addicted to the endorphin (endogenous morphine-like substances). I still haven't finished the paper on which this thread is originally based, but even though the number of dogs in the studies is small, what was being measured was changes in neurological activity that provides clear evidence of why the dogs responded as they did."

Similar evidence exists for battered spouses. No studies are planned for humanitarian reasons. Though many have said in courts that their partners goad them into abusive actions, courts have seen this as a lame excuse.

Eric.

Eric.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Eric once I had read about the role of endorphins in the behavior of the abused dog it was very clear to me that this probably had a lot to do with why abused people return to the abuser and defend them as well. Obviously a controlled study of this in people would be highly unethical, but it is also sad that there have been enough dogs available to study the phenomenon in them too.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I would hesitate to extrapolate a study like this to all dogs, since it's a small sample that would necessarily have to be trained to a pretty high level (meaning their attachment to praise over food could have changed due to the training process itself, and they're likely people-pleasers to start with either way). It is interesting, though. 

And it's a good reminder of how powerful the relationship between dog and owner can be - sometimes trainers will make dogs sound like little food robots, but you can use more complicated things like attachment and feelings to your advantage in training as well.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i just want to clarify that the study did not conclude that all dogs react in the same way. (probably i should have written a better title.) it pointed to reasons to conclude praise worked with more dogs than food did. clearly food worked better for some dogs than praise. i actually think this is good news for owners who have complained here that their dogs are not interested in food and they can't always carry a toy around for training. try praise!

when one says a dog may be a people pleaser to start with, by the way, that already contains the germ of recognition that there are dogs for whom neither food nor prey drive is really more important than the owner. 

keeping in mind that anecdotes are not data, let me just throw in something i think about at times: of my two lowchen, both liked treats, but one was clearly a foodie. the other did things like flatten herself at the front door and thrust her head at me back and forth like an egyptian snake dancer to ask me to play. i never asked her for this behavior and never rewarded it with food. she also never solicited play from the male, though she would consent to play after he begged her very very hard.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I have experimented with Grace this day. I put on my warm coat and placed her leash and ball on the table. (lots of dancing and grinning) I then put down a bowl of her favorite yummy roast pork in her feeding station. (she began to eat) I opened the door and picked up the ball. She left the pork and followed me outside. (My food will wait for me daddy but I know you and my ball won't)
Eric


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think that perhaps we need to distinguish between a dog that has been trained using food or similar rewards and now happily performs that behaviour for praise, and a dog that is, from the first, more motivated to learn by praise than by other rewards - food, toys, games, etc. My dogs like praise and petting, but all other things being equal (person offering the reward, level of distraction, etc, etc) they like chicken even more! Both are rewarding, but the second has a higher value, perhaps because they get lots of human companionship and interaction for "free". I can imagine that for dogs that are well fed but lack such interaction praise could well be the higher value reward from the first, assuming that they have been conditioned as puppies to enjoy human companionship.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

My dogs have been started with treats, than it goes to praise, and they will do what I ask for either, however, if it is chicken breast they would most likely stand on there head.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

glorybeecosta said:


> My dogs have been started with treats, than it goes to praise, and they will do what I ask for either, however, if it is chicken breast they would most likely stand on there head.


my mother used to say that about my male dog w/re to any kind of food - especially if humans were eating it!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

glorybeecosta said:


> My dogs have been started with treats, than it goes to praise, and they will do what I ask for either, however, if it is chicken breast they would most likely stand on there head.


Reminds me of the difference between taking Sophy to Agility ("I don't jump - not even for chicken!") and Poppy ("I can do that! Would you like me to do it twice? Three times? Backwards? With a prance and a twirl thrown in?!"). I went from being the trainer who could not get her dog to do even the simplest stuff, to the one whose dog aced most exercises... Why it took me so long to realise that Sophy had good, physical reasons for refusing to jump I simply do not know, but it is one of the reasons I watch them both with such close attention now.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Useful summary of the research here: Study on Dogs? Preferences for Praise Versus Treats | The Bark


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

fjm that is an accurate review of the original paper. Thank you for sharing the link. This discussion has been very interesting all around and I do think it has been productive as a discussion of thinking about how we train and why we use the rewards and markers that we choose for the dogs in our lives. As said earlier (I think by Tiny) you have to train the dog that is in front of you, not the one you wish you had.


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## Dina (Jan 24, 2016)

Hugo loves food, but when it comes to training he learns and follows commands better with praise rather than food. He seems distracted when the treats come out and more focused with praise.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i've now had the opportunity to read the evaluative report linked to by fjm. the author is karen london, whom i always associate with patricia mcconnell, a favorite behaviorist of mine.

london clarifies the study and points out that popular reports covering it misstated the results by indicating most dogs out of 15 chose to go to their guardian rather than to food when faced with a maze with pathways leading to food or the person. i wish i could go back and change my original post so as not to mislead people, but i can't, so i am covering that here, in case some choose not to follow the link provided by fjm.

i have to say that what does please me about london's commentary is her pointing to the possibility of individual variation. i continue to believe we have to give ourselves and our dogs the greatest chance for success and one way of doing so is by recognizing individuality - both our own and that of our dogs.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Tonight while practicing loose leash walking, I left the treats behind. I kept up a steady stream of verbal praise when Noelle's leash was loose, and I grumbled and stopped walking when she pulled. I told her to stay in the praise zone. Now, Noelle is 10 months old, and I do not expect to spend the next five years telling her how good she is every second. However, my happy praise made her tail wag like crazy. 

I tend to reach for food rewards. I forgot that I can be a reward, too. How cool is that?


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