# Toy poodle on raw diet



## sneedle

I just completed the transition for my 16 weeks toy puppy from kibbles to Primal freeze dried. When I told his breeder about it (had to contact the breeder for some other question and I mentioned the food transition), I got an angry email back from the breeder telling me how she wouldn't sell puppies to people who feed raw, and that her toy breeder friend fed her dogs raw for 10 years and there were 21 broken bones among her dogs. The breeder made a strong claim that raw diet is never ever a balanced diet, and told me to "love my little guy enough to feed him a balanced diet".

I'm offended by the breeder's comment. But putting my hurtful feeling aside, my priority is to find out if I'm doing what's good for my puppy and I'm not putting his health at risk in the long run. I'm searching for opinions from raw feeders who have been feeding their toys for years if not decades. Is feeding raw really healthier than feeding kibbles in the long run? Thank you.


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## Tiny Poodles

Timi eats primarily Primal Freeze dried raw.
Here she is the other day right after clipping so you can really see her muscles.







Here she is landing on her strong, never broken legs







Does this look like an unhealthy toy poodle to you?


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## sneedle

Also when I took my little guy to the vet for his final puppy shot last Friday, I mentioned about the food transition to primal freeze dried. The vet says "why would you want to do that"?


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## N2Mischief

Many people are raw feeders with great success. There are those that think it is the ONLY way and no matter what you tell them they will continue over and over and over to insist that if you are not feeding raw you are not doing what is best for your dog. 

Then there are those like your breeder who truly feel this is not the best way and she is genuinely worried about the pup she bred. 

I think a lot of people think feeding raw just involves throwing out raw meat of different varieties. It is a very delicate balancing act. 

You have to choose what you feel educated enough about. 

I have found with my dogs the fat and protein amounts in the raw are NOT healthy for my dogs. So I feed kibble.

People will say that with all the horrible ingredients that I am not doing what is best for my dog. But my miniature poodle was fed grocery store brand horrible kibble and lived to be 21 years old, so it can't be all bad

Do what works for you and your pup, just make sure you educate yourself very very well on both sides of the opinion.


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## sneedle

N2Mischief said:


> Many people are raw feeders with great success. There are those that think it is the ONLY way and no matter what you tell them they will continue over and over and over to insist that if you are not feeding raw you are not doing what is best for your dog.
> 
> Then there are those like your breeder who truly feel this is not the best way and she is genuinely worried about the pup she bred.
> 
> I think a lot of people think feeding raw just involves throwing out raw meat of different varieties. It is a very delicate balancing act.
> 
> You have to choose what you feel educated enough about.
> 
> I have found with my dogs the fat and protein amounts in the raw are NOT healthy for my dogs. So I feed kibble.
> 
> People will say that with all the horrible ingredients that I am not doing what is best for my dog. But my miniature poodle was fed grocery store brand horrible kibble and lived to be 21 years old, so it can't be all bad
> 
> Do what works for you and your pup, just make sure you educate yourself very very well on both sides of the opinion.


I know the breeder is genuinely worried about her pups. I respect her as a knowledgeable breeder and I value her opinions. That's why I was almost in tears when I read her email last night. She basically told me I'm feeding my puppy junk and I have made him a victim of good marketing of a bad product. Her reaction also makes me apprehensive about reaching out to her for questions/guidance in the future. 

Thank you for your unbiased response.


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## Tiny Poodles

sneedle said:


> I know the breeder is genuinely worried about her pups. I respect her as a knowledgeable breeder and I value her opinions. That's why I was almost in tears when I read her email last night. She basically told me I'm feeding my puppy junk and I have made him a victim of good marketing of a bad product. Her reaction also makes me apprehensive about reaching out to her for questions/guidance in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your unbiased response.



I disagree - I believe that your breeder and your Vet are the product of decades of expensive marketing by the huge kibble manufacturing companies.
When in doubt, I try to look at the plain simple facts. Just look at, touch, and smell a bowl of kibble and a bowl of freeze dried raw. Which seems more like real food to you? If there was an apocalypse and you were trapped in a pet supply store, which one would you eat?
I know my answer, so that is what I feed my dogs!

PS, my breeder, whom I respect very much, feeds kibble. I understand that, when you have more than a couple of small dogs, or even one large dog, kibble makes economic sense. We just don't discuss food.


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## Tiny Poodles

N2Mischief said:


> Many people are raw feeders with great success. There are those that think it is the ONLY way and no matter what you tell them they will continue over and over and over to insist that if you are not feeding raw you are not doing what is best for your dog.
> 
> Then there are those like your breeder who truly feel this is not the best way and she is genuinely worried about the pup she bred.
> 
> I think a lot of people think feeding raw just involves throwing out raw meat of different varieties. It is a very delicate balancing act.
> 
> You have to choose what you feel educated enough about.
> 
> I have found with my dogs the fat and protein amounts in the raw are NOT healthy for my dogs. So I feed kibble.
> 
> People will say that with all the horrible ingredients that I am not doing what is best for my dog. But my miniature poodle was fed grocery store brand horrible kibble and lived to be 21 years old, so it can't be all bad
> 
> Do what works for you and your pup, just make sure you educate yourself very very well on both sides of the opinion.



I understand that your dogs have issues with protein, but for the average healthy dog, I think the more protein the better. When I was feeding Timi kibble for treats, she had a higher percentage of body fat. When I switched to fresh and dehydrated chicken, she got so much leaner, her muscles are cut like a body builder (at the same weight). Just look at a dogs teeth - they are carnivorous, they were made to shred meat!
13 year old Teaka is on a similar diet (left kibble at maybe 2 years old), and other than a heart murmur is perfectly healthy.


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## Streetcar

I do not believe raw is necessarily better than kibble. There are excellent kibbles and canned foods. What works for one dog won't necessarily work for all dogs, just like nutrition for people. Grain-free super high protein kibble makes my dog's tummy sick. A high quality lower protein kibble with some grain (but not the ones in low quality kibble) works well for him. But what works for him (and doesn't) will be different from other dogs...

Your breeder may be really worried your puppy won't get the right nutrients as a puppy to build strong bones. And the raw feeding she recounted seems to have maybe come from someone who did not educate herself on proper raw feeding, so her fear is understandable based on that experience. Some people do kibble and canned until a puppy matures and then switch over to raw. Not saying you should, just providing info I've seen a few raw feeders post online.


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## glorybeecosta

I cannot comment of raw as I never hear of it until I joined the forum. All my dogs were feed dog food, or chicken I cooked for them. Out of 7 Tina was 19.5 when I lot her, by other 4 were 15 to 17. 

When I was a kid our dogs ate the carcaus of chickens, beef bones and never had a problem. One vet side if you give your dog a bone make sure it is bigger than the dog, so that was the last of bones or raw meat. Just my situation, so do not know


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## N2Mischief

I think thats great, it is what works for you and your dogs. I was just trying to get across that raw is not for everyone and that it is not as simple as throwing out some raw meat. It has to be balanced. You feed prepackaged so it is balanced. But for people who don't feed the packaged stuff it can be very confusing and difficult to know what it balanced. 

I still say, you have to find what works for you and your dogs. If that is prepackaged raw...great. If that is raw meat...great. If that is kibble...great. 

What works best for your dog is not necessarily best for another.


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## Tiny Poodles

N2Mischief said:


> I think thats great, it is what works for you and your dogs. I was just trying to get across that raw is not for everyone and that it is not as simple as throwing out some raw meat. It has to be balanced. You feed prepackaged so it is balanced. But for people who don't feed the packaged stuff it can be very confusing and difficult to know what it balanced.
> 
> I still say, you have to find what works for you and your dogs. If that is prepackaged raw...great. If that is raw meat...great. If that is kibble...great.
> 
> What works best for your dog is not necessarily best for another.



Absolutely agree with you. Problem here is that their breeder is making an assumption about what is best for this dog based upon the experiences of another breeder who reportedly fed raw, but who knows what type of raw.
That is just like saying all kibble is garbage, I know someone who fed it and 21 of her dogs died of kidney failure. Well were they feeding Beneful or were they feeding a five star kibble - there is a difference!


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## sneedle

Streetcar said:


> I do not believe raw is necessarily better than kibble. There are excellent kibbles and canned foods. What works for one dog won't necessarily work for all dogs, just like nutrition for people. Grain-free super high protein kibble makes my dog's tummy sick. A high quality lower protein kibble with some grain (but not the ones in low quality kibble) works well for him. But what works for him (and doesn't) will be different from other dogs...
> 
> Your breeder may be really worried your puppy won't get the right nutrients as a puppy to build strong bones. And the raw feeding she recounted seems to have maybe come from someone who did not educate herself on proper raw feeding, so her fear is understandable based on that experience. Some people do kibble and canned until a puppy matures and then switch over to raw. Not saying you should, just providing info I've seen a few raw feeders post online.


This breeder has been breeding for almost 40 years and her breeder friend started feeding raw to her pups 20 years ago so yes it was long time ago. I really don't know what kind of raw food she was giving her pups and how balanced (or unbalanced) the diet was, but the broken leg incident also happened at a dog show and my breeder witnessed it. I imagined it must be a traumatic experience for her.


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## ItzaClip

I second that not everyone feeds raw correctly. I hear people say they feed raw, then I find out it's just raw meat from the grocery store!! Also quite a few commercially prepared raw diets are still using feedlot fed animals, a big no no in my books. Most don't feel they have to supplement, but I don't feel the nutrients are in the ground for them to eat anymore so we should supplement. My Golden's breeder fed chicken too much, and I think most people breeding/ feeding lots of mouths feed the cheapest proteins. I'm a big believer in rotation. Last point: I know many companies that sell raw bones. Well they seem to have less bone content in their ground patties( I can tell by stool), so then the dogs are missing out on valuable nutrients too


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## sneedle

I had a few email exchange with my breeder today. I understand where she's coming from, and how much she cares about her dogs. She insists that raw diet is not for toy but for larger breeds. I am not trying to change her view on this, and I still value her opinion (but not necessarily how the message is conveyed). After all she knows her dogs. I have decided to switch my little guy back to kibble for now, at least until he's done growing. Then I'll revisit this subject. Thank you!


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## brownlikewoah

As long as the raw diet is balanced over time, it should be a much more effective diet than kibble. Kibble is such an unnatural thing for dogs to eat. The more real food, less things out of packages for us and our dogs the better IMO. Her friend who had dogs with broken bones probably wasn't feeding raw correctly, and it could have been unbalanced. Don't be discouraged by people that aren't educated about it. To me, I would think having a toy on raw would be even more important, since they tend to have dental problems, and chewing on raw meaty bones can do wonders. Every breeder has their own opinion. My breeder was pro raw, but against any fruit or veg. When she found out I was giving my girl raw with fruit and veg she went off...and I really don't care. Do your own research and do what's best for your dog.


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## Tiny Poodles

ItzaClip said:


> I second that not everyone feeds raw correctly. I hear people say they feed raw, then I find out it's just raw meat from the grocery store!! Also quite a few commercially prepared raw diets are still using feedlot fed animals, a big no no in my books. Most don't feel they have to supplement, but I don't feel the nutrients are in the ground for them to eat anymore so we should supplement. My Golden's breeder fed chicken too much, and I think most people breeding/ feeding lots of mouths feed the cheapest proteins. I'm a big believer in rotation. Last point: I know many companies that sell raw bones. Well they seem to have less bone content in their ground patties( I can tell by stool), so then the dogs are missing out on valuable nutrients too



What does "feedlot animals" mean? Is that the opposite of free range?


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## Dechi

I put my Tpoo and Chihuahua on raw about 3 weeks ago. My Tpoo is a finicky eater and wouldn't eat anything. Now he goes in his crate by himself and waits for his plate to come every night, and my Chi goes nuts too !

The formula I feed is a recipe that contains added vitamins and a few vegetables and crushed bones.

I just started this but it's working very well so far and I am happy with it.


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## sneedle

That's great. I'm glad it's working out for your babies. How old is your toy?


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## sneedle

One of the points my breeder made was that toys tend to need dental care when they reach 5 - 7 and without chewing on hard kibble, her toy breeder friends' dogs all required dental care at around 4 and most lost their teeth by 10. It's possible that her friend might not be doing a balanced raw diet but I'm wondering if the pups are on freeze dried or patty, without actually chewing on meaty bones, does that mean they won't have cleaner teeth even on a raw diet?


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## sneedle

Also why is the protein/fat % on freeze dried are so much higher compared to raw frozen?


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## Critterluvr

I absolutely believe that a raw diet is superior over a kibble diet. How could it possibly not be......it is 100% natural, free of chemical processing and unnatural additives and you know exactly what your dog is eating.
I think any dog would benefit from a raw diet, whether it is a Toy Poodle or a Saint Bernard.

Having said that, raw feeding is not for everyone....and I think there is also nothing wrong with feeding a good quality kibble if that's what you choose to do. As long as your dog stays healthy on it.

I started feeding raw because one of my dogs was having constant ear, eye and skin infections and he was only 6 months old. As soon as I switched to raw the infections all cleared up and he has been healthy ever since. So there is absolutely some merit to a raw diet. And boy do they love it!!!


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## poodlecrazy#1

sneedle said:


> One of the points my breeder made was that toys tend to need dental care when they reach 5 - 7 and without chewing on hard kibble, her toy breeder friends' dogs all required dental care at around 4 and most lost their teeth by 10. It's possible that her friend might not be doing a balanced raw diet but I'm wondering if the pups are on freeze dried or patty, without actually chewing on meaty bones, does that mean they won't have cleaner teeth even on a raw diet?



That's sounds like dental issues were happening a lot more do to the breeding than a raw diet. If you breed dogs with bad dentition you will produce dogs with bad dentition. Kibble does nothing for dogs teeth it's actually even worse because it is more sticky from added starches and adheres to the teeth more. Canines are carnivores and do not have the proper enzymes/bacteria in their saliva or gut to process starch. If this breeder was feeding RMBs (raw meaty bones) she could have very well avoided her dogs loosing their teeth at a young age. If you do not feed RMBs with a raw diet the dog will not get all benefits of feeding raw. Like cleaning teeth. 
This is my toy poodles chowing down on a fresh chicken neck. 
http://youtu.be/y2oaH3X1uJo


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## poodlecrazy#1

Tiny Poodles said:


> What does "feedlot animals" mean? Is that the opposite of free range?



Basically it's animals that are kept in a dirt only enclosure with hundred others of their kind. They are feed primarily grain and hay and never graze on grass. So yes it's the opposite of free range.


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## Dechi

sneedle said:


> That's great. I'm glad it's working out for your babies. How old is your toy?


Merlin is 17 months old. I just got him a bag of raw beef " performance " because even if I increase the portion, he barely gains weight and he needs to. This stuff is rich enough for growing puppies. Merlin is the anxious type, so he burns a lot of calories !


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## N2Mischief

Critterluvr said:


> I absolutely believe that a raw diet is superior over a kibble diet. How could it possibly not be......it is 100% natural, free of chemical processing and unnatural additives and you know exactly what your dog is eating.
> *I think any dog would benefit from a raw diet, whether it is a Toy Poodle or a Saint Bernard.*
> 
> Having said that, raw feeding is not for everyone....and I think there is also nothing wrong with feeding a good quality kibble if that's what you choose to do. As long as your dog stays healthy on it.
> 
> I started feeding raw because one of my dogs was having constant ear, eye and skin infections and he was only 6 months old. As soon as I switched to raw the infections all cleared up and he has been healthy ever since. So there is absolutely some merit to a raw diet. And boy do they love it!!!




Raw diets are NOT recommended for dogs with certain medical problems.


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## Dechi

sneedle said:


> One of the points my breeder made was that toys tend to need dental care when they reach 5 - 7 and without chewing on hard kibble, her toy breeder friends' dogs all required dental care at around 4 and most lost their teeth by 10. It's possible that her friend might not be doing a balanced raw diet but I'm wondering if the pups are on freeze dried or patty, without actually chewing on meaty bones, does that mean they won't have cleaner teeth even on a raw diet?


From what I read, but I would need someone to confirm it, since there are no carbs in meat, and carbs are sugar, they don't have tartar with raw. Raw is lacking the type of bacteria that causes tartar. They suggest to give a bone to chew on once in a while also.


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## Critterluvr

N2Mischief said:


> Raw diets are NOT recommended for dogs with certain medical problems.


Pretty sure I said "raw feeding is not for everyone"........


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## fjm

Well, my two are fed a diet that contains minimal carbs - no kibble, very occasional grain in treats, otherwise RMBs, meat, and vegetables, daily teeth cleaning - and they still have problems with tartar.

I think raw or home cooked can work well if you are prepared to put in the research to be sure that you provide a balanced diet, or choose a high quality prepared food. But I also think that many dogs do just as well on a good quality kibble, or a mixture - getting the right balance of phosphorus and calcium for a puppy is not always a simple matter, especially for a very small breed puppy eating just a few ounces a day, and I can see why a breeder of toy dogs might be wary of unbalanced raw diets. Although I also know of breeders who insist on nothing _but_ raw for the puppies they sell...


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## Critterluvr

Dechi said:


> From what I read, but I would need someone to confirm it, since there are no carbs in meat, and carbs are sugar, they don't have tartar with raw. Raw is lacking the type of bacteria that causes tartar. They suggest to give a bone to chew on once in a while also.


Yes, meaty bones are a very important part of a raw diet. They keep your dog's teeth incredibly clean, my vet constantly comments on my dogs' beautiful white teeth.


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## N2Mischief

Critterluvr said:


> Pretty sure I said "raw feeding is not for everyone"........


Yes you did, which indicates that not all people will want to feed it to their dogs, then you also state that it is beneficial to all dogs, not true. Just don't want the wrong information to get out there.


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## Critterluvr

N2Mischief said:


> Yes you did, which indicates that not all people will want to feed it to their dogs, then you also state that it is beneficial to all dogs, not true. Just don't want the wrong information to get out there.


Meaning ANY breed..... the post was about whether or not a Toy Poodle would benefit from a raw diet. My point is that raw diets are not breed specific, any breed could benefit from it.


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## N2Mischief

Well then maybe the wording could have been "beneficial to any breed" instead of "beneficial to all dogs".


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## Critterluvr

N2Mischief said:


> Yes you did, which indicates that not all people will want to feed it to their dogs, then you also state that it is beneficial to all dogs, not true. Just don't want the wrong information to get out there.


Hate to split hairs here but my wording was actually not " beneficial to all dogs".
You might want to actually read my post again? Just sayin.....

And while we're at it, you have my curiosity up. What medical problems would a dog have where they could not be fed raw, but COULD be fed kibble? :question:


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## Tiny Poodles

sneedle said:


> One of the points my breeder made was that toys tend to need dental care when they reach 5 - 7 and without chewing on hard kibble, her toy breeder friends' dogs all required dental care at around 4 and most lost their teeth by 10. It's possible that her friend might not be doing a balanced raw diet but I'm wondering if the pups are on freeze dried or patty, without actually chewing on meaty bones, does that mean they won't have cleaner teeth even on a raw diet?



The idea of hard kibble cleaning their teeth was disproved such a long time ago that you could practically call it an old wives tale. To the contrary, kibble tends to form a paste in their mouth when they chew it (good chewers at least), and it clings to the teeth. In the past when I have brushed my dog's teeth after eating kibble, I would find gobs of food in the back of their mouths.
I don't think that freeze dried raw does anything to clean their teeth, but it does not stick to their teeth like kibble does. When I brush my girls teeth now, I don't find any residue on them. Whole bones might clean their teeth, but the possibility of fractures concerns me. When my older girls had dentals at age ten they had a multitude of fractures which I believe were due to giving them very hard crunchy treats when they were young.
My plan for Timi is to continue to brush her teeth daily, keep the treats on the soft side, and stick primarily with the freeze dried raw (maybe add some frozen premade raw at some point). 
Everything that you breeder is saying reminds me of the things that dog savvy folk said 25 years ago. I understand how it is, my breeder has 50 years experience, and I would hate to argue with her. Fortunately unlike your breeder, she stays away from discussing the food issue!


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## N2Mischief

Critterluvr said:


> Hate to split hairs here but my wording was actually not " beneficial to all dogs".
> You might want to actually read my post again? Just sayin.....
> 
> And while we're at it, you have my curiosity up.  What medical problems would a dog have where they could not be fed raw, but COULD be fed kibble? :question:


Yes, it IS splitting hairs, if you notice I did not put quotes around beneficial to all dogs, just saying. Your exact wording was, "I think any dog would benefit from a raw diet, whether it is a Toy Poodle or a Saint Bernard." 

Misha has Hepatic Microvascular Dysplasia. 

Dr. Dodds herself advised against feeding raw to Misha.


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## Critterluvr

N2Mischief said:


> Yes, it IS splitting hairs, if you notice I did not put quotes around beneficial to all dogs, just saying. Your exact wording was, "I think any dog would benefit from a raw diet, whether it is a Toy Poodle or a Saint Bernard.
> 
> Misha has Hepatic Microvascular Dysplasia.
> 
> Dr. Dodds herself advised against feeding raw to Misha.




Not sure who Dr. Dodd's herself is but if you are talking about advice from a vet then I am not surprised. They are not trained in nutrition at vet school and are paid very well to promote big name brands of kibble. I truly doubt that there is any medical condition that could actually BENEFIT from feeding kibble. Just doesn't make any sense.
As I said earlier, if somebody chooses to feed kibble there is nothing wrong with that. Many dogs live long healthy lives on the stuff, and before I switched I too fed it exclusively and had dogs that tolerated it with no problem. It's whatever works for you.


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## Tiny Poodles

Critterluvr said:


> Not sure who Dr. Dodd's herself is but if you are talking about advice from a vet then I am not surprised. They are not trained in nutrition at vet school and are paid very well to promote big name brands of kibble. I truly doubt that there is any medical condition that could actually BENEFIT from feeding kibble. Just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> As I said earlier, if somebody chooses to feed kibble there is nothing wrong with that. Many dogs live long healthy lives on the stuff, and before I switched I too fed it exclusively and had dogs that tolerated it with no problem. It's whatever works for you.



Well yes, there are medical conditions that require lower protein, and kibble, especially some kibbles are way lower in protein than raw.


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## N2Mischief

Dr. Jean Dodds is very educated on nutrition and will not promote any brand of dog food. May want to check out some of her articles:

Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Companion Animal Nutrition Articles


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## Critterluvr

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well yes, there are medical conditions that require lower protein, and kibble, especially some kibbles are way lower in protein than raw.


Well I guess that could make sense.
Raw is still superior in my books tho, so I'll stick with it.


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## Critterluvr

N2Mischief said:


> Dr. Jean Dodds is very educated on nutrition and will not promote any brand of dog food. May want to check out some of her articles:
> 
> Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Companion Animal Nutrition Articles


I skimmed a couple of her articles, specifically those mentioning raw feeding etc.
I like the fact that she says that a raw diet is better nutritionally over kibble.
In another article I brought up she also said that kibble can cause a lot of gastro problems and allergic reactions etc. in some dogs because it is so over processed and there are so many unnatural ingredients....so yes she does seem fair and unbiased....she just does her research.
I'm sure there could be conditions where (as Tiny Poodles said) the high protein found in the average raw diet is not good..... Although I still wonder then if one could easily make their own natural lower protein diet, without using kibble. Hmmmmmm....where there's a will there's a way!


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## N2Mischief

Dr. Dodds has a homemade cooked diet that is for Liver dogs. I fed it for about a year. My health made it difficult to continue so I switched to kibble. It is not just the amount of protein in the raw, it also has to do with the compromised liver and immune system and filtering toxins that healthy dogs don't have a problem with.

Dr. Dodds is an advocate for raw, but not for immune/liver compromised dogs.


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## sneedle

Tiny Poodles said:


> The idea of hard kibble cleaning their teeth was disproved such a long time ago that you could practically call it an old wives tale. To the contrary, kibble tends to form a paste in their mouth when they chew it (good chewers at least), and it clings to the teeth. In the past when I have brushed my dog's teeth after eating kibble, I would find gobs of food in the back of their mouths.
> I don't think that freeze dried raw does anything to clean their teeth, but it does not stick to their teeth like kibble does. When I brush my girls teeth now, I don't find any residue on them. Whole bones might clean their teeth, but the possibility of fractures concerns me. When my older girls had dentals at age ten they had a multitude of fractures which I believe were due to giving them very hard crunchy treats when they were young.
> My plan for Timi is to continue to brush her teeth daily, keep the treats on the soft side, and stick primarily with the freeze dried raw (maybe add some frozen premade raw at some point).
> Everything that you breeder is saying reminds me of the things that dog savvy folk said 25 years ago. I understand how it is, my breeder has 50 years experience, and I would hate to argue with her. Fortunately unlike your breeder, she stays away from discussing the food issue!


I know it's a losing battle trying to argue with her. My puppy is back on kibble because I feel that I simply do not have enough knowledge at this point to know what is more suitable for my dog. The breeder has been doing things her way for decades and it has been working for her. She does produce lovely dogs! Regardless how my left brain is having difficulty processing her logic when it comes to food, I do trust and rely on her experiences. And I know she has the dogs' best interest.

She's obviously pleased that I listened to her advise; but I also made a point to her about not all diets, let it be raw or kibbles, are created equal. If in the future I decide to go to the other route, I know food subject is off limit. I certainly learned my lesson!


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## lisasgirl

sneedle said:


> I know it's a losing battle trying to argue with her. My puppy is back on kibble because I feel that I simply do not have enough knowledge at this point to know what is more suitable for my dog.


I do think that in order to feed raw, you have to REALLY know a lot about dog nutrition and how to keep it balanced. Otherwise it can definitely be less healthy than a good quality kibble. Also bear in mind that even among raw diets, there are many debates about which model is really best (for example, there's a lot of conflicting information out there about including vegetables in dogs' diets). That's one reason I've never attempted it.


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## sneedle

Also I just want to say how much I love and appreciate this forum! As a new poodle mom (for 6 weeks), I'm learning so much on this forum and getting a lot of valuable inputs from members here. I'm so glad I found this site!


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## sneedle

Looks like the situation with my breeder regarding diet is getting ridiculous. She said her breeder friends most of the them have a condition in their contract if dogs are fed raw diet then health guarantee is voided, and that she is going to do the same. I think she's giving me a warning.


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## Indiana

Many breeders feel raw is not the optimal diet, and the majority of vets do too. So if you want to put the work in and feed a really well researched and balanced raw diet, why not just do it then. Why so defensive and almost ridiculing of those who don't... I don't get that.


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## sillyspoo

N2Mischief said:


> ...I have found with my dogs the fat and protein amounts in the raw are NOT healthy for my dogs. So I feed kibble.
> 
> People will say that with all the horrible ingredients that I am not doing what is best for my dog. But my miniature poodle was fed grocery store brand horrible kibble and lived to be 21 years old, so it can't be all bad...


I'm having problems finding a proper food for my girls. I was wondering if you could tell me(us) the brand of dog food you're feeding? I have also found that high protein and fat aren't good for them. Even with high quality kibble, I get vomiting and diarrhea. Right now, she's eating Z/D. Any help would be greatly appreciated. You can PM me if you prefer. TY.


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## N2Mischief

I sent you a PM


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