# Breeders engaged in owner profiling



## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

I've owned different types of purebred dogs. I have always given them the best care, regardless of cost. I'm not rich but I doubt that everybody on this forum would classify themselves as such. 

While it seems that Poodles are starting to be recognized as the versatile dogs that they were bred to be, it seems like there is still a certain snobbery among _some_ Poodle breeders. I think some, not all breeders, believe owners are a reflection of their kennels and, regardless of the type of owner you may be, your socioeconomic status, or the way you look, has an impact on whether a breeder is willing to sell you a dog or not. This occurs in other breeds as well. I'm not a high-profile person but does that have a bearing on the way I'll care for my dog? I have multiple college degrees. I scored well on the SAT. That's all irrelevant but so is socioeconomic status, if you've owned dogs before and have a record of good care. 

If I submit an application, a breeder can use my information to pull up a picture of my house, which is by no means dilapidated or unkempt. I also have a large fenced yard. I'm not stating this is the sole criteria that breeders use for profiling but I definitely believe that it happens and if you're not of the right ilk. you don't get a dog.


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## Charleeann67:) (Nov 6, 2017)

I agree. Not only did I have to give references, which I expected, but I was very nervous that I would be judged about where I live since I am a widow and live with my daughter, son in law and two grand children. The breeder specifically stated she doesn't sell to homes with children under the age of 10 and I have a 3 year old grandson. I had to assure her that I have my own "space" and that the pup wouldn't be man-handled by a 3 year old. It is a beautiful space for a pup with a direct patio door out to a fenced backyard. I've let him interact with the 3 year old with supervision and it was a good time had by all but still, it was a tense time wondering if I would be accepted for the wait list.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm sorry you have been treated that way, Mish. Those are not the breeders you'd want to deal with anyway. I dealt with plenty of snobbery until I found my dogs' wonderful breeders. Really, I believe snobby breeders are the minority, though. I won't name names, but there are some in the west who I will never recommend.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

I do use a puppy questionnaire/application for potential puppy homes. It is not to profile the economic backgrounds of the person nor is it used to research your background in any way. I use it to help me find the perfect puppy for the perfect family. My questionnaire is fairly generic and kind of redundant, used by many people and of public use. It dose ask questions about your living condition, do you live in an apartment or a house? What style of flooring is in your home? Is your yard fenced? If an apartment do you have the landlords permission to own pets? I also ask for references. At the end of the questionnaire is a space for a short essay to describe you, your environment, what you are looking for in a puppy, and what the perfect puppy is for you. All this information is used to help determine the perfect puppy for the perfect forever home. My only concern is that my puppy will have a happy home. It is a Matching process and not profiling.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

farleysd said:


> I do use a puppy questionnaire/application for potential puppy homes. It is a Matching process and not profiling.


That's reasonable.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

It totally makes sense for a breeder to want to know where their dogs are going to go, but I have seen people who's standards are pretty unreasonable. I don't have a fenced yard and I work full-time, and there are some breeders and rescues who don't think I should have a dog for those reasons. But my dogs are very well cared for, I take them to work or have someone walk them when I can't be there, and they don't want for exercise or stimulation. 

If I can get to speak with them or add notes, then I try to be upfront about those things and address what I do about them. Even the strictest rescue I worked with was fine once I could give them those details. I'm glad they didn't just see what my house setup was like and disqualify me based on that. But there are definitely some people who do think that if you aren't exactly like them, or exactly like the magical ideal dog owner in their heads, then you shouldn't have a dog. And that's sad to me.

EDIT: With poodles specifically, I think people tend to overestimate how expensive they are to take care of (especially grooming). It actually varies a lot depending on where you live and how you handle grooming and things.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Race is a such a touchy subject that I hate bringing it up, but some groups are still hit hard when it comes to buying certain types of well-bred pets from a breeder. 

The elderly also have problems, which a coworker shared with me, as many people assume they won't live longer than the dog. She gave up and got one from the shelter.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

Vita said:


> Race is a such a touchy subject that I hate bringing it up, but some groups are still hit hard when it comes to buying certain types of well-bred pets from a breeder.
> 
> The elderly also have problems, which a coworker shared with me, as many people assume they won't live longer than the dog. She gave up and got one from the shelter.


In my case, it's not race or age.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I guess I have been lucky. Neither breeder with whom I worked required me to fill out applications, state my age, or volunteer any information that I thought was out of line. We did have some very very long phone conversations. I was very open about my living situations, past dog experience and did offer references of my veterinarians, groomer and personal references as well. Neither breeder actually asked me to send references, although I offered.

I fully understand breeders wanting to be very cautious about where their babies go and what their living conditions will be. I do not know if I could give up babies that I had raised. I would have dozens of poodles.

I wish you well in your search.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Vita said:


> Race is a such a touchy subject that I hate bringing it up, but some groups are still hit hard when it comes to buying certain types of well-bred pets from a breeder.
> 
> The elderly also have problems, which a coworker shared with me, as many people assume they won't live longer than the dog. She gave up and got one from the shelter.


I agree, Vita. Sadly, this is very true.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

Viking Queen said:


> I fully understand breeders wanting to be very cautious about where their babies go and what their living conditions will be. I do not know if I could give up babies that I had raised. I would have dozens of poodles.
> 
> I wish you well in your search.


Caution is one thing. Bias is another.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I get my poodles from breeders and I send them an e-mail describing my past experience with poodle. my work routine, my lifestyle, traveling, my age, etc. I have never had a problem getting a poodle, I do send them photos of my current and past dogs. The last breeder I signed an agreement, that Sage had to go back to her, if it did not work out or anything happened to me. Which I understand and appreciate


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

I’m not sure that everybody understands exactly what I’m talking about. Breeders are going betond what’s on the application to make decisions anout selling dogs and considering things that should not be factors in deciding if potential owners will get a puppy. It’s elitism.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Can you tell us more about the experiences you've had personally to make you arrive at this conclusion? There are plenty of great breeders who don't require more than a filled out application and phone call to see if you're a suitable buyer/home for a puppy.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

i had the fun experience of having a breeder very curtly end a call shortly after i "slipped up" and mentioned my fiancee was also female. She didn't return any further voicemails and emailed bck only once to say that we weren't an "appropriate home" so that was pretty clear profiling. 

Unsurprisingly, our dogs don't seem to have been negatively affected by the fact that they have two 'moms', so I really have no idea what she possibly thought was going to happen. Good things dogs are colorblind, or they might have been damaged by having a black owner as well :rolffleyes:


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

That is disgusting, Coldbrew. I'm so sorry that happened to you.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

That’s insane but this is the sort of thing I’m talking about. I’m not saying that my experience was the same but there are factors that should not be considered. My former female neighbors are two of the best dog owners I know. I know breeders who want photos of everybody in the household along with the application. Most of the breeeders I’ve encountered are NOT supermodel material. What does appearance have to do with anything? Jusging people’s ability to care for a dog by appearance or orientation is ludicrous!


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## Puca pu (Mar 31, 2018)

Vita said:


> Race is a such a touchy subject that I hate bringing it up, but some groups are still hit hard when it comes to buying certain types of well-bred pets from a breeder.
> 
> The elderly also have problems, which a coworker shared with me, as many people assume they won't live longer than the dog. She gave up and got one from the shelter.


As a Black woman, this is something that I am worried about. It's the main reason I use my university email vs my personal one. (Granted if they google my name they would find a photo of me along with grad/undergrad accomplishments) Many times I have to meet someone in person after speaking to them on the phone or via email they get a bit tongue-tied when they see me in person.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Puca pu, I'm black too, and although my search had some challenges like they do sometimes when one is different from the other, i.e. race, religion, gender orientation, age, socio/economic/educational differences, physical or mental handicaps, etc., finding a good and fair breeder wasn't impossible. My most memorable bad experience was with a well-known one who offered to sell me a pup for a ridiculous $3500; I later found out by accident that he sold that same pup a week later to a non-minority for $2500. 

I encountered bigger challenges than my race. One was distance. Where was the nearest good breeder that had what I was looking for? Would I have to catch an Amtrak or fly there then Uber? What was the cost of all that? I considered the perils of being shipped a sight unseen puppy and eventually nixed that idea because I'd want to meet the little fluff ball and see if we click. 

A major deal breaker for me was contracts. I can't stand the idea of spending a bunch of money on a dog and then can't have full registration to show or breed it... along with some of the loony clauses in some contracts that Mish mentioned. I've seen ones like you have to take the pup to their vet (which is out of state), or that you can't transfer ownership of it for any reason (even if you're on your death bed) and have to return it to them, and so on. 

I'm also not open to putting a deposit on a puppy that hasn't even been conceived or born. What if I had to wait for a year or two? What if the pregnant female miscarries or dies? What if they're scammers who run off with my money? It's not uncommon, and they only care about one color: green. My personal exception would be Arreau Standard Poodles, or Louter Creek if I was a duck hunter, and maybe a few of the other highly recommended breeders on PF, but that's about it. 

Anyway I lucked up and found a small breeder almost an hour's drive away. She's a doctor about my age, but rarely sells puppies with full registration. I was completely honest with her that I want to try my hand at showing and later _maybe_ have a litter or two. She said okay, b/c she had had a tough time too getting started with showing and occasional breeding. Honey, I plopped down that deposit and picked up Bella three weeks later.

Well, it turns out that I was a hot mess in grooming, which I pursued with passion since I didn't want to drive an hour away to a show groomer, then wait a couple hours, then drive all the back home. This is mainly b/c I'm a 35 to 45 MPH city driver. This was the result:



It's just as well. Bella hated being groomed. She also hates riding in the car in her carry bag and still treats her cage like it's a lockdown. I might have wanted a show dog, but as one astute PF friend pointed out, does your dog want to be a show dog? So much for that plan.



I still hope to show Bella at least once, but it will likely be when her coat regrows enough. I'm leaning toward not breeding her, however. She's a fabulous pet, but her great genetic background and pedigree makes me feel like I should b/c there something awful about limiting the gene pool of well-bred poodles that bothers me. If I do, it'll be once or twice and that's it.

So Puca pu, good luck. Keep looking, ignore the haters, and God willing, the right puppy will come to you at the right time.


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## furball (Apr 5, 2018)

Mish17 said:


> I've owned different types of purebred dogs. I have always given them the best care, regardless of cost. I'm not rich but I doubt that everybody on this forum would classify themselves as such.
> 
> While it seems that Poodles are starting to be recognized as the versatile dogs that they were bred to be, it seems like there is still a certain snobbery among _some_ Poodle breeders. I think some, not all breeders, believe owners are a reflection of their kennels and, regardless of the type of owner you may be, your socioeconomic status, or the way you look, has an impact on whether a breeder is willing to sell you a dog or not. This occurs in other breeds as well. I'm not a high-profile person but does that have a bearing on the way I'll care for my dog? I have multiple college degrees. I scored well on the SAT. That's all irrelevant but so is socioeconomic status, if you've owned dogs before and have a record of good care.
> 
> If I submit an application, a breeder can use my information to pull up a picture of my house, which is by no means dilapidated or unkempt. I also have a large fenced yard. I'm not stating this is the sole criteria that breeders use for profiling but I definitely believe that it happens and if you're not of the right ilk. you don't get a dog.


Hey Mish, what questions did they ask that made you feel uncomfortable?

Asking about the city/state you live (i.e. the climate), the layout of your property (whether there's enough room for the dog), the family members (e.g. some dogs aren't good with kids), your work hours and the kind of work you do (e.g. if you are a flight attendant where you could be gone for days) are all relevant questions. 

Obviously if they reject you because you don't drive a merc or your sexuality or your race, that's outright discrimination.


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## Puca pu (Mar 31, 2018)

Thank you for this it's definitely reassuring!

Distance is an issue for me as well living in Arizona. There aren't a lot of quality mpoo breeders anywhere near me. I realize that $2000 is the going rate for a well breed puppy but adding traveling costs is really stretching my budget. I've been saving but its just been hard to wrap my head around spending so much to begin with. Where I come from everyone has pitbulls or chihuahuas. 

That being said If I am going to spend that much, I plan to get exactly what I want so I am glad you were able to find that. I thought that contracts were non-negotiable and you wouldn't find a breeder who would adjust it for you. 

I have also been avoiding breeders that ask for deposits before litters are born/conceived since any breeder I choose would most likely be out of state. It's honestly a little scary (this is my first time purchasing a breeder dog and having my own adult pet).

Good luck with your show dog and your own breeding endeavors!


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I'm so sorry that happened to you. That is crazy. Unfortunately there are strange people out there and frankly I would not have even wanted one of their dogs after that.


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## rkj__ (Dec 24, 2017)

In both of my puppy buying experiences, I was a little surprised by how little they asked about my family and my home. My wife had to answer more questions when adopting a cat from a shelter.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

Others have alluded to this as well but one thing that seems to frighten breeders is a non-traditional family situation. This is ONE of the things that I've encountered. I don't have kids and my parents reside with me. They're older but they're not infirmed. I don't know what the issue is there. If I die, I don't have kids to take the dog? I don't know. Are single people not entitled to own a dog? I know a LOT of very elderly female breeders who have multiple dogs. I'm not a senior citizen.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I have never run into poodle breeders in the conformation show group who were concerned about non-traditional families. I think that is because there are so many gay and lesbian poodle people in the conformation show world, and particularly in poodles. There are also some breeders, handlers, and exhibitors of poodles who are non-Anglo.

If you are finding racial/ethnic bias or homophobia, do keep looking. There are some really nice people out there breeding poodles.

If you are looking for a miniature, you'll probably have to get one in California. Miniatures are hard to find anywhere. I checked the entries for miniatures at Arizona shows and discovered that there are very few entered there (I am showing Zoe, so I need to go where there is competition). The fact that there are very few entries of minis in Arizona shows suggests that there are very few miniature breeders in Arizona.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

You are so right, Johanna. I think at the higher levels there is LESS discrimination.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

There are definitely people who believe they aren't biased against people who are different from them, but who tend to "have a bad feeling" when faced with having to trust someone from a different group. Unconscious bias often feels the same as a gut feeling. So it's something to be aware of.

I do find it's usually easier to convince someone you're a good dog owner if you already have a dog. Then they can see that the current dog is happy and healthy, and they're less likely to worry. I bet it's a lot harder if you don't have a dog yet and you come from a class/family/background/race that doesn't match the breeder's.

That said, there are also plenty of breeders out there who are just...eccentric. In my experience, there's a healthy proportion of dog people who became dog people because they weren't very good at being people people, if you know what I mean. The process of finding a good breeder can be difficult because it's sort of chaotic -- there isn't like an established marketplace or standard for sales; it's just finding someone who has a puppy you want to buy, and hoping they decide that you're the kind of person they'd like to sell to. It can be a roll of the dice whether that's a smooth process or not.


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## asuk (Jan 6, 2017)

Re: race, LGBTQ owners, thats too bad that some breeders feel they cant sell to them. Dogs are awesome, they dont care. I didn't feel "interrogated" when I got my mini. Granted the breeder and I did talk extensively prior to us visiting her home. And I think like Farleysd mentioned, I think it's more matching, less profiling. She did matched us to the right puppy. I did encounter a breeder who won't sell me a puppy because of my geographical location which is strange. Ohhhh, if she only knew what a wonderful life milo is living now. 


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

I’ve had experiences where breeders sid not want you to have another dog. In some cases, I think nreeders worry that if you already have a dog, you’ll change your mind anout another and they’ll lose a sale. I also think they worry that you’re not competent enough to know whether tour cirrent dog and rhe new one will get along. There are a lot of pompous breeders who are megalomaniacs and if you deviate from their parameters in amy way, you don’t get a dog and this includes the way you look, where you love, what your house looks like, who your partnernis or isn’t, etc. There is a business angle to breeding as well and as I mentioned before, sole nreeders actually think that one day you’ll be stopped on the street and asked where you got your dog and somebody is going to be so concerned as to make sure the whole world knows what kind o mortifying person the breeder sold a dog to OR that you’re such an important person, that your whole gated community will want well manicured dogs just like yours! It’s ridiculous!

The irony is, that I spoke to a breeder recently, who sold a sog to a carefully selected owner, who had a picturesque garden and meticulously landscaped property and was somebody the breeder could have bragged about having sold a dog. As it turned out, the woman was chaining the dog up in one ofnher multiple garages becaise she didn’t like the barking. The breeder had to repossess the dog and not onlyniasie a refund but pay an additional $500 to make sure thebowner would relinquish the dog! Meanwhile, other truly worthy owners were turned down.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Given the civil rights problems, this country is going through, being rejected brings up a lot of insecurities for many people. Sometimes life right now feels stranger than fiction. I can definitely relate being an Asian woman married to a WASP. I've definitely been discriminated about my skin color and my choice in a partner. All the racial crap around the recent royal wedding is entirely familiar to me. It is the age of discontentment and I think it is good sharing common experiences to the foreground. 

Is it race, gender, or simply they don't like me for a legitimate reason? Perhaps it is the way I dress? The problem is less about them and more about how rejection makes ALL of us feel insecure. That feeling is universal and pretty understandable. But if you think about it, I bet many of us here have been rejected by a breeder, an ex, or a random stranger. You don't always find closure by knowing the real reason. I think closure comes from the fact that it happens to everyone and how you feel is justified. 

I like the stories people share here like Coldbrew, Vita or Puca's. I think more often than not, Lisasgirl's experience is probably the most common one I've seen in rescues and breeder questionnaire. I've been rejected by at least 5 Maremma Sheepdog breeders before finding Kit. Most would not sell to a companion situation because they are working dogs. Some breeders had actually insulted me on the phone for wanting to have a Maremma as a pet. Some told me that Maremma as a pet is cruel or I am asking for a ton of behavioral problem. But the truth is, I've had a Maremma and she had a wonderful life. She died at the age of 16 and I really doubt most of these breeder's own working Maremma can make it to that age living outdoors. Now if I were in Italy, the situation would be different. Many breeders there will sell them as a pet. 

If you look, all of my dogs are a walking contradiction. Lucky is a doodle, which is hated by most purebred dog world. The Maremma looks like a Golden or a Pyr and many dog people are afraid of LGDs or think they should be exclusive working dogs. The pug and pom are both rescues but people dislike pugs for being "deformed" and believe the breed is a cruel science experiment. And my pomeranian is bald in 60% of his body due to alopecia. Sometimes in life it is mind over matter, if you don't mind, then it doesn't matter.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

As far as a breeder not liking someone, the only legitimate reason is a proven inability to properly care for your dog. Beyond that, a breeder shoudl not have any concerns.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Agreed! Yeah but we don't live in the world of "shoulds". They are human and going to have human follies. It is easier to manage how you respond to a$$holes than changing their behaviors. I think you will be able to find many breeders who are wonderful and willing to give you a good puppy. I get it, you just want to rant about the experience, which is understandable.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I can see not wanting to give breeding rights to an inexperienced breeder out of concern for their bloodline. Or not wanting a toy poodle to go with small children. Also, not transferring the dog to someone else if current owner gets ill etc, unless approved by the breeder, as they do not know where the dog may wind up.

I am 72, white, single and work 7 days a week, at home and on the road showing property. I have had a total of 8 toy poodles, and have always gotten the one I went after. I do send them photos of my current dogs. Sage was 5 when I got her and I had to sign that if anything happened the dog went back to the breeder no matter when. I did not have a problem with that. Naturally she was spad when I got her. I think may times they are afraid they will wind up with a back yard breeder, if rehomed.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

snow0160 said:


> Agreed! Yeah but we don't live in the world of "shoulds". They are human and going to have human follies. It is easier to manage how you respond to a$$holes than changing their behaviors. I think you will be able to find many breeders who are wonderful and willing to give you a good puppy. I get it, you just want to rant about the experience, which is understandable.


It doesn't seem like you've had problems getting dogs, so I wouldn't exp ct you to be empathetic. Howver, when you run into one a-hole, it's understandable. When you run into more than one, it's the sign of a problem and the issue needs to be exposed. It's not just a cranky rant.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Mish17 said:


> As far as a breeder not liking someone, the only legitimate reason is a proven inability to properly care for your dog. Beyond that, a breeder shoudl not have any concerns.


Well, there is a little more to it than that. Not everyone that can properly care for a dog is the right match for a given breeder's puppies. Part of the responsibility of being a breeder is matching puppies with families in a way that sets both the family and the puppy up to succeed. A knowledgeable breeder knows the subset of families where their puppies thrive best.

Of course race, sexual orientation, etc. are not relevant at all!


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

That may be the case, if the breeder offers the opportunity to make that determination but I'm referring to breeders who don't and are not concerned with making the right match. Breeders of Poodles that are bred specifically for hunting or for intense agility compettions are, from ehat I've seen, in the minority. So, matching puppies with owners does not seem like something, in this breed, that eould necessitate the evaluation of multiple litters, especially if a dog has an average of 5 puppies. Everybody can ake all the excuses for breeders that they want. I know the kinds of things that have occurred and I'm more than well aware that a LOT of people are A-holes. Too many breeders are hypocritical, self-righteous, and prejudiced. I'm NOT refering to special cases involving breeding dogs or other special circumstances. I don't fall into the race, lgbtq, or problematic age categories. I don't have kids but in my case, that xould be a liability. Puppy matching is one thing, personal prejudice is another.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Mish17 said:


> It doesn't seem like you've had problems getting dogs, so I wouldn't exp ct you to be empathetic.



I think I’ve lent you plenty of empathy in the first post unless you didn’t read it or couldn’t understand. You must have skipped the part where I said Ive been turned down five times. Clearly you are upset that I said you are ranting. I didn’t mean that in a bad way. Everyone rants. I do it all the time. 



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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Mish, is there something specific you think breeders are prejudiced against or not evaluating properly?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Mish17 said:


> That may be the case, if the breeder offers the opportunity to make that determination but I'm referring to breeders who don't and are not concerned with making the right match. Breeders of Poodles that are bred specifically for hunting or for intense agility compettions are, from ehat I've seen, in the minority. So, matching puppies with owners does not seem like something, in this breed, that eould necessitate the evaluation of multiple litters, especially if a dog has an average of 5 puppies. Everybody can ake all the excuses for breeders that they want. I know the kinds of things that have occurred and I'm more than well aware that a LOT of people are A-holes. Too many breeders are hypocritical, self-righteous, and prejudiced. I'm NOT refering to special cases involving breeding dogs or other special circumstances. I don't fall into the race, lgbtq, or problematic age categories. I don't have kids but in my case, that xould be a liability. Puppy matching is one thing, personal prejudice is another.


I don't really have a comment on personal prejudice as I don't personally know any breeders who would fall into that category. But as a breeder of standard poodles, I do not believe that it is only "special cases" where careful matching of puppy and owner is beneficial.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

Why does everyone misconstrue for their own purposes? I never said that puppies should not be caredully matched. All I'm saying is that if there are ample puppies for the amount of applications a breeder has received, unless they are matching for a show dog or other specific purpose, it should not take multiple litters to find somebodya dog. That's off point anyway and it is not what I am refrring to. Yes, getting people the right puppy is important, if you have not already turned people away for invalid reasons.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

You haven’t really said why they turned you down. It is ok if you don’t feel comfortable sharing. People were trying to sympathize by sharing their own experiences. 


ETA: are you assuming they turn you down bc of your living situation or did they tell you? If not I’d go and ask.

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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I feel like you're frustrated that we're not getting what you're saying, but you've avoided addressing exactly what the problem is. So we're all just talking about breeder prejudice and puppy-matching generally, and how that can be a difficult balance sometimes.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Did they tell you specifically why they turned you away or is it just a feeling as to why?
I've had the most relationship with my 2 yr old show dog's breeder and I would definitely say that she is very open. The show world is full of untraditional house holds so for them it's not really a big deal for most. Of course, like everything in the world, not everything is fair and equal and some people have biases.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

snow0160 said:


> You haven’t really said why they turned you down. It is ok if you don’t feel comfortable sharing. People were trying to sympathize by sharing their own experiences.
> 
> 
> /QUOTE]
> ...


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Did you want a poodle with an open registration for breeding purposes? 


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

Just a pet. I mentioned wanting to try agility but I have no interest in breeding. The odd thing is, that the breeder I mentioned, that I met in person, had given at least one show dog to teenage girls to work with. I think I'm much more responsible and can show a history of well maintained animals and I don't want to show. I'm not good enough to own a Poodle, I guess. I'm not exactly sure what that means, though because if I didn't know better and saw a LOT of these breeders on the street, I wouldn't give them a second look. Many aren't what you'd call educated and most are not all that attractive. tp say that they should judge based on appearances. They don't "appear" to be wealthy. So, what is it? What gives them the right to be so judgmental, based on appearances? They didn't give me a reason or ask me any questions that they may have had. Both breeders just blew me off, for no good reason.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Are you a teenager, Mish?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Here's the thing no one has to sell you a dog, extremely frustrating isn't it. 
Besides the basic questionaire these breeders are going by their gut and past experience. IRL, I can be a little off putting, I have been turned down or not even called back over the years. I ended up going to less than reputable breeders, paid for that dearly.

This time, I kept myself in check explaining what extactly I was looking for. I took off the list sex and color as requirements but maintained I was looking for an older pup/adult that was low energy and low drive, that the parents must be health tested. 
I asked here on the forum for reccomendations, I met with my boy's breeder after not batting a eye at the price, I told him I'd rather pay now for a healthy well bred poodle but than pay later.

I now have Leonard


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

No. I’m not a teenager. I’ve mentioned that earlier i was making the point that breeders I mer with gave show dogs to teenagers hut wouldn’t sell me a dog. As for gut reactions, all of the dogs I’ve owned have lived into their teens and I have vet references for all of them. I don’t want to play games. I don’t want to walk on eggs or worry about saying the wrong thing. I realize they want their dogs to go to good homes but having, a gut feeling based on appearances or somebody asking an innocent question, is not valid. The bottom line is, breeders prejudiced and nobody wants to sell me a Poodle then honestly,.at this point, F-- them! I don't have kids, so I'm completely devoted to my pets. I took my last dog to more specialists than most people see in a lifetime and that isn't good enough, then it's their problem not mine. There are plenty of other dog breeds and I'm sure there are breeders out there who would appreciate an owner like me. When I first began looking at Poodles, I had preconceived notions about snobbery and I haven't been proved wrong. I really think that winning in the show ring goes to some people's heads and lose perspective on what they are actually doing. Yes, breeding good dogs is important and so is finding the right owners but in the larger scheme of things, who are you because you have a dog that a judge thought looked most like the standard? Get some perspective!


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Mish, I wonder if you are misinterpreting what is occurring? I could be wrong and maybe you are interpreting it correctly so take what I write with a grain of salt.

When I wanted to buy a minipoo I had a horrible time finding a well bred dog to purchase. I had my daughter who was active in dog sports network to find me my dog. I called and emailed many breeders and was getting depressed because I couldn't even get a response from any of them. I had contacted my local Poodle club - everyone on the list who breeds minipoos and no response. One of the people who I contacted was ill and dying - I found that out later. Another one finally called me to say she was having puppies and was I still interested - 6 months later and after I had just picked up my dog. 

On paper I probably look like an excellent candidate - I've had a minipoo as a child and a tpoo for 20 years, vet references, comfortable income, good neighborhood and while my backyard is not fenced, if that was a requirement, I would have fenced it. Yet about a dozen breeders that I found on line never returned an email or phone call. I don't do Facebook so I may have missed out on opportunities to contact breeders there. I didn't join Poodle Forum until I had a dog but I probably would have found a dog through the people here.

I never interpreted that I wasn't good enough to be sold a dog. I would interpret as most of them are not good "business" people - they aren't running a business so the haven't considered "customer service". For example the lady who called me 6 months later - why didn't she call me back shortly after I called? Why didn't she just say she didn't have any puppies yet and would call me back when she did have puppies to see if I would be interested then? Maybe I might have waited for her puppies because she was a breeder who I was seriously interested in.

While there may be a few breeders who discriminate for all kinds of irrational reasons, the great majority of them are just looking for a good home for their puppies. Forget about your bad experience with one breeder and continue looking in a positive manner - you will find your dog.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

I have a large fenced yard, so that can’t be an issue. Howver, it is true,that many are horrible business people. I’m just not sure how much of that can account for what occurs.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I think you would be surprised how many are not good and professional business people, and there are many in other business the same way. No customer service I call it. On all but my first poodle I have written the breeders e-mails and called them. E-mail First and I gave them my lifestyle, my work, the number of toy poodles I had owned along with other dogs prior. No children, no husband and why I wanted another poodle and currently had one or two. 2 first ones were 8 to 10 weeks. After that I got 8 month to 5 yrs with the average being 15 months old, as it words for me better. I have never been turned down, I live in a duplex no fenced yard. Sounds to me like you have run into the wrong breeders, and need to drop and go some place else. I have never met a snobby breeder, unless they are doing mixed breeds, which is a joke, I would not buy from them anyway and an quick to tell them.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Well, it remains a mystery. If you want a great breeder who will treat you well, I've recommended my dogs' breeders ad nauseum, if you would consider traveling or have the puppy brought to you.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I was annoyed that I got zero follow-up from some of the breeders I contacted. Did they not like my last name? Was I too old? Had no poodle experience? I didn’t give it a thought until this thread. I have had people tell me they want to be reincarnated as my dog, not that I felt the need to put that on any application. As far as I’m concerned, they missed an opportunity to talk up their next litter or refer me. A serious buyer deserves a response.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

I think your reading way too far into things. I've never heard of a breeder taking the effort of googling your house to see how pretty it is?
Some breeders are just simply not good at communication. They are busy (breeding, showing, some are judges travelling the world, have families, other commitments), they are often older without great technical skills, they have long wait lists and sometimes not nearly as many puppies (or different genders) than they expected and so they have to choose the best families for the limited puppies. 
Just chill and keep contacting breeders till you find one willing to work with you that happens to have a litter that ends up working out.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

If you want a pet poodle and don't want to go through all of this, why not rescue a poodle? As long as you get one from a reputable rescue rather than one that "rescues" dogs from auctions/puppy mills. I love my rescues just as much as dogs I've gotten at the breeder. The rescue screening will be similar but I doubt any would care about your house as long as you have a yard. There is a good chance these breeders were not discriminating against you and there is a misinterpretation but do you really think it is a good idea to come on to poodle forum to say this?



Mish17 said:


> When I first began looking at Poodles, I had preconceived notions about snobbery and I haven't been proved wrong. I really think that winning in the show ring goes to some people's heads and lose perspective on what they are actually doing.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Mish17 said:


> I have a large fenced yard, so that can’t be an issue. Howver, it is true,that many are horrible business people. I’m just not sure how much of that can account for what occurs.


This might be a slight misunderstanding

Reputable, responsible Poodle (and other) breeders are not in business to breed puppies to supply the public. Good breeders are developing their lines and getting their next puppies to show, not breeding for pets.

Yes, there will undoubtedly be pet quality puppies in many well-bred Poodle litters, though until the pups get to a certain age and can be evaluated, that's an unknown, and then they'll go to the best matches in homes, usually not whoever provided funds first without any other qualifiers.

Many breeders are concerned about the future of the fancy, and they go out of their way to support young girls and boys in junior handling to help bring along the next generation. So I am not surprised in the least to see well-qualified children get to take home a puppy (parents are entirely involved, of course), well ahead of someone looking for a pet puppy.

In my last breed, it was not uncommon for someone to wait a couple years for a puppy. Granted, that was a bit more rare a breed than Poodles, though honestly looking at Tpoo entries in this area, hardly more so (another Toy breed).

We don't have the least bit of information about the breeders approached, and it can be admittedly challenging for new puppy hopeful people to make contact with great breeders. They are not out there googling people's homes, though some will require home visits. Also, they are going to require a spay or neuter, and that is their right.

Well-bred puppies of specific breeds (how's that for redundancy!) are not offered like puppies of backyard breeders or stores. They are not sold like merchandise, and many times, breeders' lists will be full of prior puppy buyers, so between raising a litter properly, exhibiting/handling, other competing, and taking proper loving care of their own dogs, not to mention often holding down a full time job to support the entire enterprise, the response rate may not be near that of many situations.

My current Tpoo came to me as a rehome (consider something like this or going rescue), but I found for my last dog going where I'd likely run into breeders and handlers in person, and approaching with the mindset I'd have to be patient and qualify for a puppy, worked well. No idea if there could be a parallel here.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I've been reading this thread all along, but haven't replied until now because I was on vacation and only replying to my own threads and a couple about training issues. Mish17 I am sure you are a nice person and a more than capable dog owner, but it strikes me that you have approached the work of trying to find a poodle with an attitude that is possibly off putting to breeders. If you go to a situation thinking you will be somehow wronged then you will find a way to see that you are being wronged. 

I teach college biology at an open enrollment community college. Some of my students are truly Ivy League/medical school material and some of them not so much. I work very hard to treat all of my students fairly no matter their academic potential and actual work, but I am only human and when a student approaches me with a chip on their shoulder such as "why are you giving me these grades" as opposed to "I want to know what you can help me with to do better" I am much more inclined to assist the second situation more than the first. If you have approached these breeders with something akin to the first attitude (which is what you have projected here IMO) then move onto new breeders with a new attitude and I am sure you will find a good dog.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Well said, Catherine. I have read through so many threads of yours, Mish, and I am amazed at how many people are genuinely trying to help you, but got brushed off and/or got attitude (myself included). I think an attitude of positivity and gratitude would be very helpful. Positive thoughts lead to positive actions. Wishing you well.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

I don’t approach breeders or anybody else with any kind of attotude st all. If anything, I’m more than mild-mannered until I get really angry and frustrated. I don’t send emails or voicemails demanding a puppy. I have looked into rescues but have never been able to find anything even remotely close to my are. However, I do have a reservation with rescuing a Poodle because they can be prone to so many genetic problems, that there’s no way to know what you’re taking on.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

As far as traveling to get a dog, I can’t fly. I wouldn’t feel comfortable driving very long distances alone. I’m not a hige fan of putting a puppy on a plane for 8-10 hours. I know it’s done all the time but it seems like it would be uncomfortable for the dog.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

If you get a puppy nanny, the dog travels in the cabin. I've never heard of anyone, or should I say any dog, having any issue with this. The maximum hours across the US is a 6 hour flight. Frosty's breeder just delivered a puppy to France without any problem. Just saying, it can be done.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

Is that a regular airline ir animal-specific?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Pet nannies are service providers.


Here are links for a couple of them.


Pet Packers – Professional Flying Pet Nanny Service


http://tlcflightnanny.com/


Just Google "airline puppy nanny" to find more.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

Sorry. Who is your breeder?


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

We have at last one Miniature breeder in Colorado. And I am aware of a litter that is planned for this fall....


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Mish17 said:


> Sorry. Who is your breeder?


If you're asking me:

Maizie was bred by Melanie North of Lacy Lane Poodles, Utah. lacylanepoodles.com Breeder since 2001, AKC/UKC Champion Line Standard Poodle puppies in Heber Utah. Black, Blue, Red, and white puppies available. She currently has puppies available. 

Frosty was bred by Oksana Fagenboyn of Rock'nRolla Poodles, California. Rocknrolla Poodles - Home She has puppies, but I'm not sure if they're all placed.


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## Rrelkins23 (May 20, 2018)

Puca pu said:


> Vita said:
> 
> 
> > ]
> ...


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Rrelkins23 said:


> I have heard that some shelters discriminate based on race especially with certain breeds like pit bulls. Which is double ridiculous because they are making a decision to limit the amount of good homes an already hard to adopt dog will find.


Shelters don't discriminate in my area (DC/MD). The only thing they care about is do you have a backyard?

As to breeders, finding one who won't discriminate based on your race, gender identity, religious background, age, income or appearance _isn't like finding a unicorn_. Some people have had some disappointments and challenges, but you just shrug it off and get on with your search - which others here have said in their experiences. 

Mish, I reviewed your posts and it appears you've been looking for nearly two years. I'm wondering if you're still angry about a situation where you or a friend got burned by a breeder out of $500, and maybe that's holding you back? I'd be angry about that too, but it wouldn't be the first time (or probably the last time) someone who was flakey or deceptive screwed me out my money, and guess what? When it comes to greed, mean or deceitful people don't discriminate. 

As I've gotten older I've gotten a little better at avoiding problems of this ilk, from car repair shops to at one time, home renovations, but some people are so good I'll never say it won't happen again. All I can do is be careful in anything that's financial, including puppy contracts.

So Mish, if you're ready to move on, what kind of poodle do you want? 

~What size, gender, and color? 
~Can it be a parti-color? 
~Would you accept a mini or toy? 
~Does it have to be champion sired, or even have champion bloodlines? 
~How far away are you willing to travel to meet and buy it, or would you be comfortable seeing a video of it from a reputable breeder and having it shipped? 
~If the breeder has _not_ had the parents DNA tested, would you be willing to spend $100 bucks to swab the puppy's cheek and send it to a lab to rule out genetic diseases? (Assuming the breeder would allow this before you plop down a deposit.) That $100 for a full disease panel like here may turn out to be one of the best investments you make on getting a pup if the parents have not been tested. You can do this for an older rescue poodle in foster care too, if they agree, and I don't see why they wouldn't. It's just an option to consider.

The question of _will a breeder accept me?_, is irrelevant. The real question, strictly from my point of view, is _will I accept the puppy they're selling and the contract on the table?_

That's my take, anyway. Good luck.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Sometimes when we have a negative preconception or expectation about something that very thing happens. A lot of people are very good at picking up attitudes, even if the person is trying to act like they don't feel that way. When you said "When I first began looking at Poodles, I had preconceived notions about snobbery and I haven't been proved wrong." I wonder if this is what is happening.

It is sort of like someone trying to hide that they are racist but not wanting to admit it or perhaps not even self aware to know they feel that way, but a person who has been racially discriminated against in the past can often tell anyway. 

I may be wrong about this. But thought it might be worth mentioning. Wishing you luck. Hey, maybe just not the right dog for you has come along yet?


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## Skadi (Feb 24, 2017)

Could you get a friend to drive with you? Perhaps someone from PF? I've seen that happen in the Doberman community for someone driving far to get a dog.

Another thing that struck me reading this thread is that it seems to me you operate under the assumption that the breeders aren't selling you a pup even though you know they have a pup on the ground. The thing to keep in mind is that good breeders' waitlists are often very long, and if a litter has an average of 5 pups, I can almost guarantee that even before that litter was conceived, at least 15 people enquired and 10 people got on the list.

I embarked on my journey last year to look for a Standard Poodle for my grandmother as her red 3/4 Standard Poodle 1/4 Golden Retriever boy was beginning to age. (He has passed away in February) we got a referral to Arreau thanks to this forum, before we also looked at breeders in our province. We finally settled on someone who wasn't necessarily doing anything super fancy but the health testing is all there and the bitch we are getting a puppy from impressed us with her temperament, those two things being our primary consideration as my grandmother is not interested in confo showing (but she thinks she could have fun with agility or obedience and would really like to do therapy work).

So I contacted her last spring/summer, we established a contact, spoke over the phone. I re-entered contact in the fall and again this winter after Safran passed away. She had a litter coming up for the spring... she takes up to 8 reservation deposits before the litter is conceived, and adds more if the echos and x-ray shows more (she's had luck with this because she's mostly had large litters). Breeding hadn't even occurred yet and there were only two reservation spots available. We put our deposit down then went to visit the breeder. At this point the spring litter had been bred for. She was also planning a summer litter (both of these being red) and a fall litter (phantom). Two things occurred: one, we were terribly impressed with her Phantom girl whom she'd just recently acquired and was planning a Fall litter for, her temperament was out of this world and in my opinion the most solid of her dogs. Actually the second red was wonderful too but she was really on the smallish side, and the breeder told us she already had 6 deposits down on those plus her first choice. This was two months ahead of the planned breeding. Second, my grandmother started thinking maybe she didn't want a red after all, because she wouldn't want a dog that reminded her too much of Safran and that would lead her to make comparisons. 

So we decided to transfer our deposit to the Phantom girl's even if meant waiting almost a year (early december) to bring puppy home! On the bright side that gives us first choice amongst puppy reservations (first choice goes back to the breeder of course, and second choice will go to the stud dog's owner) And boy are we glad we did - because the bitch who was bred for the Summer litter recently scanned pregnant but with only 2 or 3 puppies expected. So all those people who were on the waitlist for her will have to wait until next year to get a red, and for those willing to get another colour, that probably filled up the waiting list for this Fall litter. So, if you were, theoretically to approach her today about getting a puppy she would either tell you to put a deposit for next year or wait/get back in touch with her next year, or possibly even refer you to someone else, depending on what you were looking for with a poodle. That wouldn't mean she doesn't find you to be a suitable puppy owner.

Mish it sounds like you feel as though breeders are giving you the runaround or discriminating against you based on arbitrary criteria. But it is possible that you've simply been unlucky in finding a puppy available. Personally, in my breed (Dobermans) it is not unexpected to wait 2 years on average to get your puppy, and so what we generally recommend is to choose a breeder (not based on current availability) and develop a relationship or rapport with them, and get on the waitlist, or put a deposit (depends on where you live, in my province most breeders don't keep a waitlist without reservations first) and be willing to be there for up to two years. 

With my doberman, there is a woman who owns one of her littermates, who had been waiting for 2 and a half years from a different breeder, who ended up splitting from her husband and retiring their breeding program as a result. So she referred the woman to our current Dobe's breeders fairly early on and that got her on top of the list.


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## Rrelkins23 (May 20, 2018)

Charleeann67:) said:


> I agree. Not only did I have to give references, which I expected, but I was very nervous that I would be judged about where I live since I am a widow and live with my daughter, son in law and two grand children. The breeder specifically stated she doesn't sell to homes with children under the age of 10 and I have a 3 year old grandson. I had to assure her that I have my own "space" and that the pup wouldn't be man-handled by a 3 year old. It is a beautiful space for a pup with a direct patio door out to a fenced backyard. I've let him interact with the 3 year old with supervision and it was a good time had by all but still, it was a tense time wondering if I would be accepted for the wait list.


That whole not selling to people with children under 10 is something I did encounter while
Searching for my puppy. It’s a very ridiculous stipulation if you ask me. I have a 4 year old and he is my puppy’s favorite person. I can understand asking to meet the child before you sell a puppy to someone. It would take very little time to discern if the child was likely to terrorize a puppy, and if the parents were pushovers enough to allow it to happen. I found myself hesitating to even admit to some breeders that I had a small child and often would go into another room and close the door because I knew if they heard his rowdy thumps and giggles then they might assume I would let him toss the puppy around the living room. I even understand discouraging some people with children under 5 from getting a puppy because let’s face it, it’s not easy keeping track of two creatures at full blast that might pee in the floor at any moment, but it should also be my decision about whether a puppy fits into my life with a small child. I hope someday to be able to breed my dog if I feel like I have enough time and energy for it, and while I do understand that a person who loves their dogs would find it hard to let them go to less than the perfect home, I also thing kids and puppies are great together! With vigilant and careful parents, good training (for both puppy and child) a small child and a puppy can be great for eachother.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

There is a post somewhere in here with reference to hownlong I’ve been looking for a Poodle. I do have to mention that l stopped looking for a good partnof last year because I had a medical issue then I had work done inside the house, which turned out to be more extnaive than i planned. So, I wanted ro wait until that was done to start again. 
I had put in an application and followed up to see that ot was received but have not heard back since. I think the breeder eas waiting for confirmation of pregnancy but I’m not aure when that’s done. If I don’t hear back, what shall I infer from that?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Mish17 said:


> I had put in an application and followed up to see that ot was received but have not heard back since. I think the breeder eas waiting for confirmation of pregnancy but I’m not aure when that’s done. If I don’t hear back, what shall I infer from that?


I would read in to it that the breeder isn't looking for buyers at this time. Either she (or he) has a long list of buyers waiting for a dog, or maybe she isn't planning to breed for awhile, maybe she is ill, or her granddaughter handles the internet stuff and the granddaughter is busy and forgot to check, or the breeder is just terrible about responding to potential customers......in other words, there can be so many reasons that has nothing to do with you at all.

You might try to contact them again - if they have a Facebook page, you might have more luck there.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I even understand discouraging some people with children under 5 from getting a puppy because let’s face it, it’s not easy keeping track of two creatures at full blast that might pee in the floor at any moment, but it should also be my decision about whether a puppy fits into my life with a small child. [/QUOTE]

Not every puppy is suited to a family with a child under 10, though, and it's a breeder's responsibility to ensure that individual puppies are placed with the families where they are most likely to thrive.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

When i spoke to this breeder, who isn’t on fb, she said she did not have a list for this breeding. She acknowledged receipt of the applocation but nothing since. Her acknowledgement was timely, so if she did intend to respond further, I think she would have. Maybe I’m blacklisted.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Mish17 said:


> When i spoke to this breeder, who isn’t on fb, she said she did not have a list for this breeding. She acknowledged receipt of the applocation but nothing since. Her acknowledgement was timely, so if she did intend to respond further, I think she would have. Maybe I’m blacklisted.


Maybe she doesn’t have puppies yet. One breeder I called and left a phone message didn’t call me back. 6 months later I got a call from her saying she had puppies and was I still interested. I definitely would have been except I had just found my dog and picked her up a week ago. I might have made a different decision if she had called earlier.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Vita said:


> Race is a such a touchy subject that I hate bringing it up, but some groups are still hit hard when it comes to buying certain types of well-bred pets from a breeder.
> 
> The elderly also have problems, which a coworker shared with me, as many people assume they won't live longer than the dog. She gave up and got one from the shelter.


I'm a few days behind on the forum, so this reply might seem a little random.

A good friend, born on Pearl Harbor Day, which puts her well into Social Security territory, co-owns her Flat-Coats with her daughter, which assures the breeder that the dogs will have a home if they outlive the owner.

Oh yeah--she has two adult dogs, put a UKC UD on one last month, and has just added a "flat" puppy to the household.

I'm also in Social Security territory by a couple of years. If my boy's breeder has the brown standard boy of her dreams in the next litter, we may co-own it. That's a big "if" for a litter that hasn't been bred yet!


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## Charleeann67:) (Nov 6, 2017)

I am really loving this discussion as it has highlighted that us "boomers" have a lot to enjoy and give even if we are in our 60's. I live with my daughter and son in law and a year ago when I said I was going to get a puppy now that my husband and our labs were gone, I was told that I was basically too old! It took awhile, but I finally won and now I'm the happy 67 year old owner of my little Rudy mini poo. 60's are the new 50's!


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

I did hear from a couple of breeders that they'd be having litters later this year. I'm not sure what to do because I'm still waiting to see if the breeder with the possible summer litter will get back to me. Also, if you're looking for a male or female, specifically, as I am, that makes things even more difficult because if I do get on a list but can't get what I want, then I have to start this process all over again!


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Hi Charleeann67. I normally do not discriminate when puppy buyers are living in the "Golden Years" I do ask the prospective puppy buyer if they have considered or have made arrangements IF the puppy would outlive them. It is a sensitive question, but one that needs to be addressed. Only once have I been told that I offended a person. 

Sadly this happened on my last litter, a woman in AZ purchased a puppy, I WILL NOT SHIP, she paid for a plane ticket for my husband to deliver the puppy. Long story short, she was only able to enjoy the puppy for 2 weeks! She had already had all the arrangements made, including a trust fund, for the care of the puppy. 

In my contract it states that if the buyer is not able to take care of the puppy,, for any reason,, no matter the age,, the puppy must be returned to me. This is to protect my puppy from ever having to face the prospect of winding up in a shelter or rescue program. When someone informs me that provisions have been made for the puppy, I am more than happy, as long as it is a good placement. I certainly do not want the pet to be traumatized any more than it has to be. This puppy never asked to be born, therefore it is MY responsibility to take care of it if/when necessary.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

Mish17 said:


> I did hear from a couple of breeders that they'd be having litters later this year. I'm not sure what to do because I'm still waiting to see if the breeder with the possible summer litter will get back to me. Also, if you're looking for a male or female, specifically, as I am, that makes things even more difficult because if I do get on a list but can't get what I want, then I have to start this process all over again!


When I was searching for my current spoo I contacted several breeders who had litters on the ground. I, too, worried about the possibility of having more than one puppy become available. Would I be asked for a non-refundable deposit? Would a 'better' pup become available? Would I put the breeder in a difficult situation by backing out? I believe that I ended up with the dog that I was meant to have. It's likely that I'll return to the same breeder for the next pup, and already have an idea of how far in the future that will be. I hope that you get the dog that is right for you soon.

To the original question . . my experience. My first poodle search was in 2001. I went through Illinois' breeder referral. There weren't many breeders on their list and when I phoned the closest to me was asked if I understood the grooming requirements of a poodle. (I grew up with poodles. Funny enough, when I was looking for my current spoo in 2015, that was the first question that anyone asked!) I felt that I was being interrogated at the time and ended up getting a shelter dog. My next dog was a foster failure, and that leads to the rest of the story.

I've been fostering for a couple local rescues for about a dozen years. I believe that there is NOONE who can take care of one of my puppies as well as I have when they're in my home (tongue in cheek!). I understand why breeders are particular about where they place their puppies. If I had any control of the process in the rescue organizations, my potential owner interviews would have been tough.

The past two years I've paid more attention to poodle breeders and litters, how puppy placements are made, how often puppies become available because a prospective home backs out. It's not easy for either breeders or first-time poodle owners. I say "first time" because owners often find the breeder that they like and stick with them.

It is really difficult to wait for a dog when you're ready NOW. For me, it was 2 years after losing the previous dog. I needed a waiting period. But when I was ready, I was ready. I didn't hear back from every breeder that I contacted (that's still puzzling). It didn't have to do with my demographics or living situation, because I didn't mention that in my message. But I had several really nice phone conversations with top-notch breeders. Maybe it is like other endeavors--it's really difficult to get ahold of a contractor, and they are at it full time, unlike breeders for whom this is a part-time activity.

I wish you patience while you wait for "the one."


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## Rrelkins23 (May 20, 2018)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I even understand discouraging some people with children under 5 from getting a puppy because let’s face it, it’s not easy keeping track of two creatures at full blast that might pee in the floor at any moment, but it should also be my decision about whether a puppy fits into my life with a small child.


Not every puppy is suited to a family with a child under 10, though, and it's a breeder's responsibility to ensure that individual puppies are placed with the families where they are most likely to thrive.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree and understand that. And no matter what, you have to take into account how many people make bad decisions on a daily basis. I just mean a blanket ban on selling to homes with children under 10 stinks for us responsible owners with kids under 10. My boy and his poodle might change a lot of minds if they could meet them. But conversely, I have met some kids who don’t need to be within 100 yards of a puppy (usually through no fault of their own because they aren’t supervised and educated.) And even without there being a specific temperamental reason why the puppy shouldn’t be placed with children, I imagine it’s hard for a breeder who loves their puppies to trust that parents will do their work.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

farleysd said:


> This puppy never asked to be born, therefore it is MY responsibility to take care of it if/when necessary.


This. We have a responsibility to them that never goes away because we are responsible for bringing them into the world.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Rrelkins23 said:


> Not every puppy is suited to a family with a child under 10, though, and it's a breeder's responsibility to ensure that individual puppies are placed with the families where they are most likely to thrive.


I totally agree and understand that. And no matter what, you have to take into account how many people make bad decisions on a daily basis. I just mean a blanket ban on selling to homes with children under 10 stinks for us responsible owners with kids under 10. My boy and his poodle might change a lot of minds if they could meet them. But conversely, I have met some kids who don’t need to be within 100 yards of a puppy (usually through no fault of their own because they aren’t supervised and educated.) And even without there being a specific temperamental reason why the puppy shouldn’t be placed with children, I imagine it’s hard for a breeder who loves their puppies to trust that parents will do their work.[/QUOTE]

Yep. It's hard on both sides. And I do understand absolutely both sides. I know that my responsibility to my puppies is much greater to me than my responsibility to families with young children. I personally do have a "soft" blanket rule, but I make exceptions with experienced and particularly dog savvy families that I know can manage the dual neediness of kiddos and pups!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I know that my responsibility to my puppies is much greater to me than my responsibility to families with young children.


:love2:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Oh, and I'll add that my thought process is usually more along the lines of, is this puppy going to be happy or stressed living in a household with young children? Is the pup going to be the right energy level? Or will the family likely find the puppy to be too much dog? Does the puppy respond to stress in a way that is suitable for living with kids? Is it reasonable to expect a family with young children to be able to meet this dog's training and exercise needs? Is it reasonable to expect this puppy to enjoy the active, busy, noisy lifestyle that comes with young kids? Would this pup be better matched with a quiet older couple? Should pup go to a performance home instead due to high drive? Etc. Etc. Whether or not a family can properly supervise their kids tends to be less of a concern to me, as the other factors are the major compatibility issues I worry about.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think the bottom line in a lot of this is that breeders should be selective in with whom they send home puppies. Clearly there is no place for discriminating on gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation and the like, but I don't have a problem at all with a breeder wanting to know that a particular prospective buyer can afford to properly husband the puppy/dog and care for its health even if there are unexpected expenses. I also think it is fine to inquire about the fenced yard and other aspects of the home environment (including other dogs already in the household). Whether the people are work at home types, interested in performance sports and whether there is an army of children in and out all day long also matter in helping to match the right personality of puppy to owners. I love my Lily to death and woulldn't trade her for the world, but if she went to a home where she was expected just to be a couch companion she would have been rehomed long ago. She needs to have done a decent day's work at a job to be able to settle down at the end of the day.


The other thing about the business of selling puppies is that they aren't cakes or flowers. They are living things to whom a commitment is made for a hopefully long and healthy life. I would certainly be disappointed if a breeder told me they didn't think I was right for one of their puppies, but I would ask why, hopefully get an answer and move on.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I totally agree, Catherine!


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

Evidently, I was misinformed when I spoke to the breeder. There were other people on the list. I don't know how many. I do know that some breeders will go right down the waiting list, which I don't agree with because I think temperaments are more importtant than who got their application in first. I don't know how this particular breeder operates. I also don't know what happens if you give a deposit when the puppies are born, then find that there is not one that is compatible.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> but I don't have a problem at all with a breeder wanting to know that a particular prospective buyer can afford to properly husband the puppy/dog and care for its health even if there are unexpected expenses.


How exactly does a breeder make this determination?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Mish17 said:


> How exactly does a breeder make this determination?





I think it comes about through honest conversation with the breeder discussing vet costs, grooming costs and the like along with the price of the puppy. Hopefully prospective owners are honest about their resources and limitations.


There has to be some amount of trust in transactions like these but I also think that a breeder could ask for a vet reference or a groomer reference along with other information. I've never filled out a puppy application, but I certainly was very willing to answer questions such as did we have a fenced yard. I told both of my poodles breeders in my early conversation with them that I was looking for performance sport dogs, so I suppose I was received differently than an average pet home purchaser.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

I have a fenced yard and I’ve owned dogs before. Any breeder who looks at a vet reference can see that I spent an exorbitant amount of money on vet bills.
I never specifically tell breeders thet ai want a “performance” dog but I do tell them that I am interested in agility. I really don’t think I’ve ever given a breede any reason question or have misgivings about selling me a dog. Wanting a performance dog doesn’t automatically endow anybody woth superior dog ownership skills or means. 
I’m not sure why breeders would treat performance owners any differently either, as far as evaluating whether they were suitable owners or worthy of one of their dogs.
Telling somebody you're interested in performance doesn't automatically mean you're a more worthy owner. Furthermore, there may be an implication above that breeders have dismissed me because of responses to answers about care but that is not the case. I have filled out questions on applications related to this but I have never had any conversations of that sort. So, if you are implying that breeders may judge a potential owner's ability to care for a dog, based on external criteria, or appearances, that is exactly the kind of snobbery and prejudice that i'm talking about. I'd be happy to print out all of my bank statements and obtain copies of the copious vet bills that I have paid for my dogs. As far as grooming, my last dog had short hair and I groomed him myself a lot of the time.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Just like breeders would lean towards placing a dog into a pet/show home, some breeders will also lean towards a pet/performance home. Why? because breeders like to have their dog getting titles. It looks great for their breeder program, and shows that their dogs are capable both mentally and physically for a wide range of activities. Performance owners are also very diligent owners that tend to pay a lot of attention to the dog's fitness, health, food, etc so tend to make very good homes that will provide a lot of mental and physical stimulation, which makes them attractive to breeders.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I think Catherine meant that she established herself as an experienced owner and trainer. The average person calling for a puppy typically doesn't even know what performance sports are! 

I don't remember filling out an application for Maizie, just talking at length with her breeder on the phone. For Frosty I filled out an extensive application, provided groomer and vet references, and was called back about an hour later because a puppy matching what I was looking for was available.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

zooeysmom that is exactly what I meant. I had no intention of offering myself as a better owner, but did intend that telling the breeders about my plans would help them to understand that I had the means to husband the puppies properly since I would be not only spending to groom and vet them properly but to make a committed investment in training them.


I think I am ready to give up on this conversation.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Yes, I don't think she'll ever choose to understand that she has either 
Not met the right breeder/litter match or 
That she isn't putting herself in as good a light to breeders as she thinks she is. The responses on this thread does seem to show someone that thinks way too much into a situation that isn't exactly to her favour and may get a bit argumentative back.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Mish17 said:


> Wanting a performance dog doesn’t automatically endow anybody woth superior dog ownership skills or means.
> I’m not sure why breeders would treat performance owners any differently either, as far as evaluating whether they were suitable owners or worthy of one of their dogs.
> Telling somebody you're interested in performance doesn't automatically mean you're a more worthy owner.


It doesn't make them a more worthy owner, but it might make them a better match for a specific puppy if they are a serious/experienced/proven performance home, which is different from someone who "might be interested in agility." The latter usually doesn't end up doing agility but sometimes does. And - the former has a proven track record of experience in performance sports. A very different type of puppy will generally be matched with someone who "might be interested in agility" than a serious performance home. And, for a breeder who has puppies who have the temperament to excel in performance, serious performance homes are often given preference. I make it clear in my initial contact with puppy buyers that both performance and show homes are given preference.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

That kind of matching is good for the puppy buyer too, by the way. Genuine performance champion prospects usually don't do well in regular pet homes, because they need a lot of stimulation and a "job" in order to be happy. I can see if you breed for that, you'd be hesitant to place your performance prospects with pet buyers and jump at the chance to place them with someone who regularly competes, because that latter person is more likely to understand the type of dog they're getting.


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## poodleoo (Apr 23, 2018)

Mish17 said:


> I have a fenced yard and I’ve owned dogs before. Any breeder who looks at a vet reference can see that I spent an exorbitant amount of money on vet bills.
> I never specifically tell breeders thet ai want a “performance” dog but I do tell them that I am interested in agility. I really don’t think I’ve ever given a breede any reason question or have misgivings about selling me a dog. Wanting a performance dog doesn’t automatically endow anybody woth superior dog ownership skills or means.
> I’m not sure why breeders would treat performance owners any differently either, as far as evaluating whether they were suitable owners or worthy of one of their dogs.
> Telling somebody you're interested in performance doesn't automatically mean you're a more worthy owner. Furthermore, there may be an implication above that breeders have dismissed me because of responses to answers about care but that is not the case. I have filled out questions on applications related to this but I have never had any conversations of that sort. So, if you are implying that breeders may judge a potential owner's ability to care for a dog, based on external criteria, or appearances, that is exactly the kind of snobbery and prejudice that i'm talking about. I'd be happy to print out all of my bank statements and obtain copies of the copious vet bills that I have paid for my dogs. As far as grooming, my last dog had short hair and I groomed him myself a lot of the time.


There's something else going on here. I have no yard at all, let alone a fenced yard, nor was I interested in a performance dog. I had no trouble at all finding top notch breeders that come highly recommended here that were willing to place a puppy with me. All I did was make it clear in the applications that (1) I understood what it meant to have a spoo, (2) I had been very deliberate and thoughtful in determining how I would give my spoo an amazing life and working out logistics in advance, (3) I had the resources to do that, (4) I was interested in a temperament realistic for my lifestyle, and (5) I was prepared to wait for the right fit puppy, even if it meant waiting years. 

In calls with breeders I asked questions that made it clear I had done my research and was familiar with appropriate health testing for the breed and the like and how to interpret the results. When other breeders came up in conversation I knew who they were too because I had clearly done a ton of research and was familiar with the top breeders in the region. In other words, I made it abundantly clear that although I did not already have a spoo, I had the experience to know what I was getting into and the good sense to do an incredible amount of research to learn as much as I could.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Charleeann67:) said:


> I am really loving this discussion as it has highlighted that us "boomers" have a lot to enjoy and give even if we are in our 60's.


I too am enjoying and learning a lot from this discussion. And I am 72, having a grand time with my wonderful Spoo Service Dog. He is now 9, but acts like a 2 year old when not in SD mode. I am actually thinking about getting another Spoo to train as a replacement SD. However at my age I may try to find a good candidate 1 or 2 years old so I can avoid all the potty bendovers! 

Yesterday we went for a hike in the mountains, played fetch, and he and I together worked to help educate some little neighborhood kids on how to be very gentle with a dog. Now those little kids are teaching others. I had to chuckle hearing a 5 year old explain to his father how he should approach Tiki and ask to pet him!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Kontiki, you're another person with a youthful spirit. Never would have guessed you were 72  I think poodles keep people young!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

zooeysmom said:


> Kontiki, you're another person with a youthful spirit. Never would have guessed you were 72  I think poodles keep people young!


Thank you so much ! Made my day I agree about poodles helping to keep us young


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Yes poodles do keep you young and 3 toys keep me busy giving them the attention the deserve. But adore them it is worht the time and expense


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

Well, Poodles were born and i didn’t hear feom the breeder. Fuess i won’t get a puppy from this litter. I may start looking at other breeds as well. As much as I want a Poodle, I just want a dog. I am not foing to sit on a list for a year.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I am sorry, Mish. It's hard when you have your heart set on something (especially puppies). I haven't read this whole thread, but it makes sense that some breeders might want their dogs to go to specific people if in the end they will get some credit for a dog winning competitions.



Mish17 said:


> I may start looking at other breeds as well. As much as I want a Poodle, I just want a dog. I am not going to sit on a list for a year.


What about looking at dog rescues? Rescues have an application process as well, but this is used to make sure dogs/owners are a good match. I don't know how common it is to find a poodle in a rescue, but you could give it a try. That is how I found Miracle. Even now I still look at the rescue's homepage and if I hadn't adopted Miracle, there would have been other dogs that would have matched what I was looking for. You also have the chance of getting a puppy, if that is what you really want.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

Dogs4Life said:


> I am sorry, Mish. It's hard when you have your heart set on something (especially puppies). I haven't read this whole thread, but it makes sense that some breeders might want their dogs to go to specific people if in the end they will get some credit for a dog winning competitions.
> 
> 
> 
> What about looking at dog rescues? Rescues have an application process as well, but this is used to make sure dogs/owners are a good match. I don't know how common it is to find a poodle in a rescue, but you could give it a try. That is how I found Miracle. Even now I still look at the rescue's homepage and if I hadn't adopted Miracle, there would have been other dogs that would have matched what I was looking for. You also have the chance of getting a puppy, if that is what you really want.


I have looked into rescue but I've never found anything. Most rescues want you to be in the local area and there's nothing around here. I also worry about genetics of rescued dogs but some people on the forum have suggested that a rescue may allow testing. I know rescues tend to be strict, so I'm not sure if that would be a possibility or not. There would probably be some issues with that, as far as them having to take money to have the tests performed and having to send them out, be interpreted, etc. It seems unlikely that a rescue would be willing to do anything like that. As I stated, though, nothing around here anyway.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Most puppy buyers are NOT looking for performance prospects. Most are looking for pets. It is not that hard to find a pet poodle unless you are extremely picky about sex, color, specific time-frame, location, etc.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

If you don't want a poodle bad enough to wait a bit or keep looking then maybe you don't REALLY want a poodle.
I agree that it really isn't that hard to find a pet poodle from a good breeder unless you are super picky or aren't putting yourself in good light to breeders for whatever reason.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

It really depends on your area whether there would be poodles available right when you're ready for them. I think people are overstating a bit based on their experience. Having to wait for a well-bred poodle is pretty common -- there aren't that many born per litter, especially among the littler guys, and waiting lists are common. If I were looking for a poodle from a show breeder, I'd expect to wait up to a year or more for a puppy depending on my criteria. And I think I'm a pretty easy pet home to place with.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

lisasgirl said:


> It really depends on your area whether there would be poodles available right when you're ready for them. I think people are overstating a bit based on their experience. Having to wait for a well-bred poodle is pretty common -- *there aren't that many born per litter, especially among the littler guys*, and waiting lists are common. If I were looking for a poodle from a show breeder, I'd expect to wait up to a year or more for a puppy depending on my criteria. And I think I'm a pretty easy pet home to place with.


You're right about toys and minis, but she's looking for a spoo. Spoos have large litters--10 pups isn't uncommon, and Maizie's breeder recently had 12.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

The average size of a standard litter is about 7. I believe 12 is uncommon. In all my years breeding I have only had 2 litters of 10 puppies. My favorite litter size is 5. With five puppies I have a great choice for my next show prospect. 

My wait list is normally full before the breeding. This is the same for most breeders in know.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

lisasgirl said:


> It really depends on your area whether there would be poodles available right when you're ready for them. I think people are overstating a bit based on their experience. Having to wait for a well-bred poodle is pretty common -- there aren't that many born per litter, especially among the littler guys, and waiting lists are common. If I were looking for a poodle from a show breeder, I'd expect to wait up to a year or more for a puppy depending on my criteria. And I think I'm a pretty easy pet home to place with.


Yes, no ones saying you won't have to wait, what I think we're saying is that it's not hard to find a good breeder willing to sell a puppy to a nice pet home as long as you don't need extreme specifics, or for some reason you aren't having yourself sound like a good pet owner.


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## Mish17 (Jun 30, 2016)

I just can’t get the timing right. When I inquired about that summer litter that was born recently, there was nobody on the list, or so was told before submitting my application. 
Now that the litter eas born, I was told that there was a list. I’m not picky about color but I am about wanting a girl. I was told thst when they were born, I’d hear back and haven’t. So, nothing there but in the meantime, I missed out on getting on other lists. I couldn’t give a deposit if I wasn’t sure about this summer litter because ifnit did materialize, I would have lost a good amount of money. Now, I have to wait for next Spring/Summer’s litters but I don’t know who will be planning any. That’s another year that I have to wait, if I ever get a dog, to start agility and whatever else. By the time I get a dog, I will be a senior citizen. Then, I’ll probably want a smaller dog. Last year, I started looking then had to stop because I got Labyrinthitis. I could have had a puppy then but I couldn’t travel because of the inner ear issue and I didn’t want to get a dog not knowing when I’d be okay. That’s my luck-none!


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Definitely sounds like a timing issue, which is frustrating. For what it's worth, breeders should either apply your deposit to a future litter or return it if they don't have a puppy for you in their litter. Maybe ask about that if it comes up in the future.


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