# Guardian program?



## Jennifer/jane (Mar 23, 2014)

Hi, I recently heard of a breeder that is doing a guardian program. We would get a female puppy and if she grows to be of a certain caliber the breeder would take her back for a few litters. Anyone have experience with this?


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Not personal experience but I believe a couple of the breeders on the forum use guardian programs which are actually a form of co ownership. It is however similar to the contract I have for my brownie. His breeder and I co own him. I will pay for his testing at age 2 and after he passes his tests she will get one breeding from him. Once she gets her puppy she will sign him over to me completely. I am also responsible for the costs involved in showing him and putting at least one performance title on him and hopefully a conformation title. Of course I am also responsible for his routine care just as I would be for any of my dogs. 

The key to a successful arrangement is that you like and trust the other person whether it be a regular co own or a guardian arrangement. A well thought out WRITTEN contract is also very important. It prevents any arguments down the road later as to I thought you said or I said this not that. Wry grin as one of my dogs was named after a 2 year battle for papers "Always In Writing".


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

We have co-owners and foster (guardian) homes. In a foster situation, the family pays nothing out of pocket except day to day grooming, food and general health care. Everything else, we pay for including testing. This is our way of pay back and thanks for a wonderful, safe home, keeping the dog happy and healthy and making the dog available to us for breeding.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

My girl Cammie had her first litter two weeks ago. As a first-time breeder, I am working very closely with an experienced breeder who had been with me every step of the way including spending a 21-hour day with us on the day that the pups were born (yes, 21 hours straight!) and numerous visits since then. I am very fortunate that she lives only 10 minutes away from me and is very committed to this litter. But I think it is important that Cammie gave birth and is raising her litter in her own home. Cammie constantly looks to me as her person -- the one who gives comfort and reassurance and makes her feel safe. Of course, she is the one who instinctively knows about nursing pups and keeping them clean. She is a fabulous mom. I cannot in a million years imagine shipping her off to someone else's house to have her babies. This is the time that she needed me the most. IMO, poodles need to be with their own people at a time like this. Before you get into an agreement, think long and hard about how it would feel to send your dog somewhere else when she is about to deliver her puppies. I couldn't do it.

Maybe it would work if your dog spends so much time at the breeder's house that it is like a second home to her. And I guess it is better than having poodles live in kennels. But I wish that every poodle mom had the luxury of having her pups in her own home, a home where she is loved and nurtured.


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## Jennifer/jane (Mar 23, 2014)

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I appreciate it, and have some pondering to do.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Jennifer/jane said:


> take her back for a few litters.


I wouldn't do that. A few litters is a whole lot of 'taking back'. I would consider it with a male (as in 'a few breedings'), but not a female if you are a pet owner. Just my opinion unless you might be a 'show and breed' type owner? Or, if you lived pretty close and were supported with breeding her in your own home like peppersby. I could see that, but not shipping her off.


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## RufflySpeaking (Jan 7, 2014)

We use co-owns, as do many show breeders. 

I have had multiple moms come here to whelp their puppies. They do great. They arrive about a week before whelping, get tucked in and used to their box and their room, and deliver with no stress and a lovely relaxed spirit. They take great care of their babies. Five or six weeks later they're definitely telling me they're ready to go home, and they are welcomed back into their families. 

I have a mom right now with week-old puppies; she lives several hours from me. Her owner came with her to the pre-whelping x-ray and then we took her home from there. The few nights before she whelped, she slept on our bed (right next to the box), happy as a clam. Had a beautiful (and very easy) labor, five puppies are thriving, and they're old enough now that she is sleeping on our bed again, looking down at her little litter. If she's stressed, it's hard to tell through all the snoring .


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## RufflySpeaking (Jan 7, 2014)

There's really no such thing as a reasonable or unreasonable contract or expectations when it comes to a breeder. What matters is whether you are happy with what you get and have to give. 

For some owners, having a girl dog go away for six weeks once a year is not only no problem, it's great. Gives them a chance to get the lawn back in shape and go on vacation. For others, it would be awful. If it sounds awful, don't do a co-own. If it sounds fine with you, then it's a huge win on all sides. You get a beautiful dog, the breeder gets to expand her breeding program, the dog gets the best of two homes.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

five or six weeks suggests the puppies are left without their moms at that age. is that normal practice?


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## RufflySpeaking (Jan 7, 2014)

patk said:


> five or six weeks suggests the puppies are left without their moms at that age. is that normal practice?


Yes - by that time the mom has weaned them and is spending almost no time with them. If she were one of the resident dogs, she'd be avoiding them like the plague (because every time they see her they attack her and try to nurse, no matter how hard she's correcting them and trying to run away) and begging to go out in the morning with her sisters. The aunties, who love puppies, take over at this age, and play with them and teach them. 

I would never take puppies away from their litter and their pack before 8 weeks, but we give their mother a break and let her go home around six weeks. The last one I had go home, a few months ago, crashed out as soon as she got home and her owner said she slept for about three days straight. It's like the first day of kindergarten - other adults get the kiddos and the mom finally gets a chance to relax!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

thanks for the details. there's been a lot of handwringing over the issue of age of separation from moms and litters. seems you are saying litters are more important. might be problematic for toys if there's a singleton. but in general, good to know.


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## RufflySpeaking (Jan 7, 2014)

patk said:


> thanks for the details. there's been a lot of handwringing over the issue of age of separation from moms and litters. seems you are saying litters are more important. might be problematic for toys if there's a singleton. but in general, good to know.


Well, I want to be clear that IN MY PACK, litters and pack members are more important than moms once weaning is done. I have ten dogs in the house. That means there is never a time when puppies are not supervised both by humans and by adult dogs who are very puppy-savvy and would never hurt a baby. 

The puppies seem to learn most from each other - they are constantly playing and fighting and around six weeks old it gets REALLY loud. That's because they start biting, hard, and the other puppy screams and won't play anymore. That's the basis of bite inhibition. Around 6-7 weeks is when we start bringing them out into the big exercise yard every day, where the older dogs can meet them and begin to have contact with them. By eight weeks they are spending a good part of each day outside with their aunties and grandmother and great-grandmother, all of whom teach them how to behave and gently (or not so gently) reprove them when they misbehave. 

When their mom is one of the resident dogs, from 6-8 weeks she will have very little to do with them. Puppies are not gentle when they are being weaned, and so weaning can't be gentle either. If a litter of nine puppies manages to corner their mom, I'll find bloody gouges on her nipples from where they set their teeth when she tried to walk away. They would never dream of trying that with one of the other adults.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

it is an argument for larger scale in-home breeding, isn't it? harder to do with larger dogs, of course, but nonetheless, i think you make some valuable points about socialization by pack.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I still do not get what is in it for the pet owner. They get a pretty dog? Hmmm...I have pretty dogs.

It sounds to me that the breeder gets all the proceeds from the litter without the turmoil of having an extra dog around. Drop of the girl once a year for 8 weeks, I make $2,000 a puppy (you do the math). That is big money with a normal sized litter. 

To do it just to get a 'pretty dog' sounds like a very lousy deal to me. Anything can happen when whelping, including C-section or death. Breeding every year can take a toll on the girl. It is the pet owners family member. If the guardian got to share in the half the profits, maybe it would be reasonable, but something tells me that isn't the case. 

If the guardian was interested in showing and breeding themselves and needed an experienced mentor, then it is a win-win. Otherwise, find another 'pretty pet'.


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

patk said:


> *five or six weeks suggests the puppies are left without their moms at that age*. is that normal practice?





RufflySpeaking said:


> *Yes - by that time the mom has weaned them and is spending almost no time with them*. If she were one of the resident dogs, she'd be avoiding them like the plague (because every time they see her they attack her and try to nurse, no matter how hard she's correcting them and trying to run away) and begging to go out in the morning with her sisters. The aunties, who love puppies, take over at this age, and play with them and teach them.
> 
> I would never take puppies away from their litter and their pack before 8 weeks, but we give their mother a break and let her go home around six weeks. The last one I had go home, a few months ago, crashed out as soon as she got home and her owner said she slept for about three days straight. It's like the first day of kindergarten - other adults get the kiddos and the mom finally gets a chance to relax!


You are talking about standard poodles right? 

Because not so long ago in another section we just had this "argument" about the toys, which apparently need to nurse for much longer. 

Just wanted to point this out since the OP did not really specify the size...


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

outwest said:


> I still do not get what is in it for the pet owner. They get a pretty dog? Hmmm...I have pretty dogs.
> 
> It sounds to me that the breeder gets all the proceeds from the litter without the turmoil of having an extra dog around. Drop of the girl once a year for 8 weeks, I make $2,000 a puppy (you do the math). That is big money with a normal sized litter.
> 
> ...


i don't have a dog to hunt in this (literally, since i've pretty much decided to go for an adult toy when the time comes), but i would not expect breeding every year to be part of the deal. maybe twice or three times then that would be it. any breeder who expected to breed the dog for years on end would be suspect. 

that being said, i have to admit i would never want to be involved in a guardian relationship. but nothing wrong with someone who finds it right for them, as long as the dog is not just used like a disposable tissue.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I thought it was a way to get a really good dog without the original outlay. The guardian owner doesn't pay anything for the dog but is responsible for all care and feeding, normal vet and grooming costs, etc. The breeder gets to have a few litters from the dog, which is then neutered/spayed and becomes the guardian owner's dog forevermore. (I'd have to think a long time about having an unaltered female dog, but an intact male wouldn't be a problem.)


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Wild Kitten said:


> You are talking about standard poodles right?
> 
> Because not so long ago in another section we just had this "argument" about the toys, which apparently need to nurse for much longer.
> 
> Just wanted to point this out since the OP did not really specify the size...


no, ruffly speaking breeds corgis and i am talking about dogs in general, including toys, which is why i referred to "handwringing" around here. in any event, ruffly speaking said clearly she would never let a puppy go before 8 weeks, but she has a pack of dogs for socialization once the dam goes home at about 6 weeks. i suspect it doesn't even matter that the dogs are of the same breed when it comes to full on socialization. ruffly speaking may be able to let us know down the road, if she decides to breed spoos as well...


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

patk said:


> no, ruffly speaking breeds corgis and i am talking about dogs in general, including toys, which is why i referred to "handwringing" around here. in any event, ruffly speaking said clearly she would never let a puppy go before 8 weeks, but she has a pack of dogs for socialization once the dam goes home at about 6 weeks. i suspect it doesn't even matter that the dogs are of the same breed when it comes to full on socialization. ruffly speaking may be able to let us know down the road, if she decides to breed spoos as well...


Well what I was referring to was the explanation I got in another topic from breeders stating that the toys actually need to nurse longer than 6 weeks (some even say 11 weeks or so), it was not just about the socialization but specifically about nursing toy breeds. 

btw - "handwringing" was in your next post which I did not read until after I posted my question. Sorry.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Wild Kitten said:


> Well what I was referring to was the explanation I got in another topic from breeders stating that the toys actually need to nurse longer than 6 weeks (some even say 11 weeks or so), it was not just about the socialization but specifically about nursing toy breeds.
> 
> btw - "handwringing" was in your next post which I did not read until after I posted my question. Sorry.


yeah, i know what was said. i'm just trying to avoid a rerun. the fact is that the pup at the heart of the discussion seems to be thriving. i just don't want to crank people up and make life miserable for the owner all over again. serves no useful purpose.


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

patk said:


> yeah, i know what was said. i'm just trying to avoid a rerun. the fact is that the pup at the heart of the discussion seems to be thriving. i just don't want to crank people up and make life miserable for the owner all over again. serves no useful purpose.


oh I was not trying to re-run an argument, what would be the point of that, my question has nothing to do with that pup, it was a general question. 

I was trying to find out how things work if you are involved with a toy breed in this kind of arrangement. That female would have to "stay away from home" at the breeder's place for much longer than 6 weeks... right?

Just making sure I understand


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Wild Kitten said:


> oh I was not trying to re-run an argument, what would be the point of that, I was trying to find out how things work if you are involved with a toy breed in this kind of arrangement.
> 
> Just making sure I understand


i know. but sometimes that open door creates a real inflow of hot air!:biggrin1:


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

patk said:


> i know. but sometimes that open door creates a real inflow of hot air!:biggrin1:



Sorry..... not my intention. I am just here to learn


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## AleKaiRowdie (Mar 25, 2014)

I had a standard that was on a show/breeding contract. She was to be finished and have 1 litter of pups by an approved stud with the breeder getting pick of the litter. If those terms couldn't be met for whatever reason, she was to be sold to me for pet price. When she went into heat-her hair fell out. You can't show a poodle with no hair. And you can't breed her and pass on a fault. She was spayed. The breeder never asked me to pay for her. She was just thrilled that she had a loving home.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

AleKaiRowdie said:


> I had a standard that was on a show/breeding contract. She was to be finished and have 1 litter of pups by an approved stud with the breeder getting pick of the litter. If those terms couldn't be met for whatever reason, she was to be sold to me for pet price. When she went into heat-her hair fell out. You can't show a poodle with no hair. And you can't breed her and pass on a fault. She was spayed. The breeder never asked me to pay for her. She was just thrilled that she had a loving home.


good breeder. would that all were as ethical and caring about their dogs.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

AleKai's deal with that breeder sounded fair for all concerned except for the part about pet price. They should all be the same price as puppies. You can get a pretty good idea when they are little, but they may have adult teeth that come in badly stained, for example. Choosing a show dog as a little puppy can be a crapshoot. Anything can happen (like hair falling out).


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

outwest said:


> AleKai's deal with that breeder sounded fair for all concerned except for the part about pet price. They should all be the same price as puppies. You can get a pretty good idea when they are little, but they may have adult teeth that come in badly stained, for example. Choosing a show dog as a little puppy can be a crapshoot. Anything can happen (like hair falling out).


don't breeders who sell pups for show take them back/place them as pets if they don't work out? that's the impression from what i've read that i've had up till now - of course i'm talking about ethical breeders. i got my lowchen at 5 months because he was supposed to go to another lowchen breeder for show. then one tooth started to come in crooked, and his breeder offered him to me as a pet. 

a breeder whose deal is pick of the litter may also be taking a chance - the pick may not turn out to be a show dog. it can be a crapshoot for the breeder, too.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Exactly patk and since most breeders are not thinking of just a show dog but also of their goals in their breeding program when they select a puppy to keep they are really taking a big gamble. Will that puppy become a good show dog, even more important will that puppy develop in a way that will help improve their line...


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## AleKaiRowdie (Mar 25, 2014)

A good breeder can tell which puppy they want out of a litter before they're weaned. My bitch was pick of the litter. At that point-show puppy prices were 50% higher than pet puppy price. It was the 80s-pet price was $500 & show price was $750. There were no genetic tests done in those days.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Breeding a girl every year for three to five litters is not hard on her at all. In the wild, she would breed every season because nature intends it that way. She is getting to rest a season between litters. And of course, this would be provided a breeder has a good relationship with a vet who has a good working knowledge of the dog and has given his/her blessing on the breedings. If the girl is healthy, there is no reason she cannot be bred, as long as it is not before two, not after seven, she is cared for and well nourished and enjoys doing it. 

We have a line of Standards that sees the girls thrive as Mothers. Betty-Jo (Grandma) is resting before her next breeding, as has taken it upon herself to nurse her daughter's litter constantly, even though she is not lactating- playing, disciplining, cleaning. We did not ask or coerce her to do this. She did it because she enjoys mothering and nurturing puppies.

What is in it for a foster/guardian family is they are getting the best puppy of the litter, at no expense to them, fully health tested, at no expense to them. Some guardian homes love this arrangement because they will work their family holidays around their girl's litter. They do not have to concern themselves with kennelling her or finding someone to house sit, because she will be with her "other" family. I see a ton of positives for all concerned.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> What is in it for a foster/guardian family is they are getting the best puppy of the litter, at no expense to them, fully health tested, at no expense to them. Some guardian homes love this arrangement because they will work their family holidays around their girl's litter. They do not have to concern themselves with kennelling her or finding someone to house sit, because she will be with her "other" family. I see a ton of positives for all concerned.


As someone who loves to travel, I can certainly see how this could work really well! Right now, our only plans to travel are within the US, so we can manage to take Hans with us. But, if we plan a trip to Europe or something, it may be tricky finding someone to watch him. So I can imagine how that aspect of a guardian arrangement would actually be a plus for us.


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