# trimmed or not trimmed- you decide ;)



## outwest

Breeder thinks groomer trimmed Jazz on his head. I don't think she did- told her not to, I was very specific - bath and brush ONLY- NO scissors- nothing. I took him there because I thought it was good socialization for him, not that I couldn't do a bath. They know I want to put rubber bands in. 

The breeder swears she trimmed it. Said they can't help themselves and never take him again. I am calling tomorrow to quiz them and find out. I don't think they did, but this whole thing going ballistic over their hair is crazy. Now I am told to put fish oil in his food so his coat stays nice.

He just might not have a lot of hair! Breeder says it will take 3-4 months to grow it back if they trimmed it and to forget about showing AKC until well over 9 months old and only then if nobody touches his topknot. I think my puppy is just lacking hair on top. She says his hair should be almost falling in his eyes and it isn't. Hmm. I say- give the kid a break. But, now I am stressed out the groomer did something that I can't see she did. 

He is 13 1/2 weeks old (3 months)- this is one week after the 'bath': 
after bath:









before bath (nobody has touched his hair on his head other than his face shave):









Do you see any difference? He just looks bald in both pictures to me. He may be hair challenged, but how can you tell at this age. His hair is really curly. Maybe that's making it look short? 

Anyway, I am calling to quiz them tomorrow. If they did trim it, then I will go ballistic. Does it really take 4 months to grow back a half an inch of puppy fluff? 

I have little rubber bands all ready to stick bits of hair in and no bits of hair to stick in. My poor little bald boy...


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## petitpie

Looks the same in both pictures to me.


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## CharismaticMillie

The first thing I thought when you posted photos of Jazz Recently was....oh sh**! Groomer cut his topknot. I have no doubt. Don't take him to a pet groomer again until after he is a Champion.


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## outwest

So, you thought so too? Hmmm. Why can't I see it? I am calling them tomorrow. I'll let you know what they say. I said bath and brush only. I want to get him out and about, Bonnie was going so seemed a good thing, but not if they trimmed it. I told them not to. He was all blown out when I picked him up, so it looked longer. I just don't see the difference. He's bald.


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## tokipoke

Hm... I have a hard time telling. I just don't know if it's the angle or the curliness of his hair. He does have great hair for a pup though. I bet he's gonna have really awesome hair for scissoring. Just look at the curls on top of his head!! Leroy did not have that texture at that age (and he still doesn't on his body). I really hope the groomer didn't go against your wishes.

I attached some pics of Leroy to compare. The first pic is him around 13-16 weeks (I think), second pic is him at 6 months. I didn't clip or scissor his topknot in both pics (oops, I did trim his eyebrows back at 6 mo I think!). You can see in the first pic that his eyebrow hairs were growing.


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## Quossum

Though of course I defer to the experience of those who have grown out hair for shows, I don't see a difference in your before and after pics. Certainly not a 3-4 months to recover from it difference...but like I say, eyes keener for the fine points of the show experience can probably discern what I can't.

I had to go back and look at pictures of Sugarfoot at that age, since I can guarantee that his topknot was never touched with scissors since no one has ever groomed him but his breeder and me. He came to me bathed and with fft, but I don't think his breeder had trimmed any hair at all. I distinctly remember thinking that his topknot wasn't growing *near* fast enough, and here I was with tiny rubber bands I was rarin' to use! So, looking back, I think he didn't have as much hair as Leroy, but about as much as Jazz. Maybe it's a black thing? It looks like I started doing devil horns about 17-18 weeks.

He's a gorgeous puppy, trimmed or not!

--Q


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## Marcoislandmom

I am not sure looking at the picture that he was trimmed, however with these curls, it could just be that the hair is longer. When you bath or he gets wet, does his hair fall into his eyes? There may be length there, just not easily seen because of the curls. In any case, to grow a coat, bath and bath and bath ... maybe twice weekly. Once I started bathing her often (and even taking her to the beach to romp in the surf), my Karat starting growing hair much faster.


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## Countryboy

First of all, I would take a comb or a slicker and loose the curls. Then u might be able to see what yr working with... no?


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## Aroseshook

It looks like the cleaned it up not so much cut it. Like they trimmed his "bangs".


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## vtomblin

It looks like he was trimmed a bit.


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## outwest

Okay, so I called and quizzed them. She was horrified that I suggested she did that. She said no scissors came near his head - none. I do believe her. He's just a baldy. 

Yah, the boy has a lot of curl, but his head is particularly curly. I think it's cute, but don't know what it means, if anything, in the scheme of coats. Countryboy, I can't get rid of the curls.  I brush him every day. It is always curly. When I picked him up from his blow out it was straight, for about 4 hours. 

Tokipoke, Leroy has more hair in that first picture, thanks for showing me. I think he might be older in it?

Anyway, I hope Quossum is right. It seems like his body hair is getting longer and nothing is happening on top of his head except curlier and curlier. I always thought puppies had straight hair! When I comb it it goes in his eyes and then sproing- curly again, but soft. His Dad has a great wirey coat. Mom a thick softer coat. 

I have to believe the groomer. She knows I don't want her to touch him with scissors. My black rubber bands may never get used at this rate.


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## CharismaticMillie

If they've got great, coarse coat it can be curly young! Henry, Millie (and no clue about T - didn't have him yet) were all curly from the time they came home!


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## outwest

CharismaticMillie said:


> If they've got great, coarse coat it can be curly young! Henry, Millie (and no clue about T - didn't have him yet) were all curly from the time they came home!


Oh, YAY! I hope you are right!! I might make up for the fact that he HAS no hair on his head yet. LOL Millie has a fabulous coat, one of the thickest I have seen on a brown/cafe. I can only dream he would have a coat like that. 

I cross my fingers that his apparent lack of head hair has to do with the curls. Time will tell!


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## mom24doggies

I didn't think he had been trimmed....and I think his growth looks just fine for his age! And yeah it looks like he is going to have great coat....the more curls and texture they have as youngsters the better their adult coats are.


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## tokipoke

I'm glad your groomer listened to you! Still envious of Jazz's curls!

The pic in the previous post is Leroy at 16 weeks.

I attached some more pics of Leroy at 12 weeks, 15 weeks, and 17 weeks. Can you believe that first pic in the earlier post is him in between week 15 and 17?? He looks so much older in the other picture! They grow up SO fast!! I also think shaving the face makes them look older and more distinguished. 

I didn't get to do the 52 weeks thread with Leroy, so thanks for letting me post these. It's great to reminisce about his puppy days. As you can see in all his pictures he has straight topknot hair. His adult topknot hair is great. So Jazz's topknot will be unbelievable when he gets older!


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## outwest

Thanks, Tokipoke! I love seeing Leroy as a puppy.


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## CMPB

Outwest, it doesn't looked trimmed and I'm glad you trust your groomer. Seeing Jazz and hearing about his curls makes me less anxious about Pierre's TK. Just like Jazz...Pierre has curls for days making for a lacklustre shape. Hopefully that translates to healthy adult hair with some volume. Thanks for sharing...Jazz is gorgeous...


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## tortoise

For the record, dog hair grows and average of 1/2" per month. You can measure your dog's hair and find out its rate of hair growth. It may not matter for showing, but I'm using it to figure out how much growth to expect to get for grooming competitions on specific dates.


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## CharismaticMillie

This was Mil the day she came home at 10 weeks. I guess her topknot just grew fast from the beginning! Glad to know that your groomer did not trim Jazz. He will grow hair. 

ETA: Darn, PF is not letting me upload photos. This one made it on..but it's not really the one I wanted to post. :/


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## Countryboy

outwest said:


> Yah, the boy has a lot of curl, but his head is particularly curly. I think it's cute, but don't know what it means, if anything, in the scheme of coats. Countryboy, I can't get rid of the curls.  I brush him every day. It is always curly. When I picked him up from his blow out it was straight, for about 4 hours.


Ahhhhh... well just call it a major cow-lick then. Young boys do have 'em, eh? 

Interesting to hear from everybody abt curly haired pups growing up to have great hair. I didn't know that . . . but it seems to be a pretty common experience. 

But if worse comes to worst, O/W . . . u can always loose the hairbands, the long hair and the naked bits, ear plumes, poms and bracelets. Turn him into a REAL dog.  lol

Run him thru the briars and brambles, take him out fishin', hiking and canoeing . . . all the things he'd love to do! 

No elastics necessary. :aetsch: lol


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## Paragon

Countryboy,

My guys do all of the above! With BRACELETS! With TOPKNOT! With EARS! With NAKED bits! They ARE REAL DOGS!

Paragon


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## LEUllman

Anyone else find it ironic that we take a dog carefully bred to have a wirey, curly coat, and then insist on painstakingly teasing, blow-drying, and brushing to make the coat perfectly straight for the show ring?


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## tokipoke

Countryboy said:


> Run him thru the briars and brambles, take him out fishin', hiking and canoeing . . . all the things he'd love to do!


Leroy is a sensitive city dog lol. I can't imagine him hunting. He did go through "briar and brambles" and he sliced his skin open!! Now I'm second guessing my decision of staying in a log cabin and hiking through the woods with him...


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## tokipoke

LEUllman said:


> Anyone else find it ironic that we take a dog carefully bred to have a wirey, curly coat, and then insist on painstakingly teasing, blow-drying, and brushing to make the coat perfectly straight for the show ring?


Makes perfect sense to me! But I'm a woman :girl2: The straight-haired gals want their hair curly and spend hours curling their hair; the curly-haired gals want their hair straight and spend hours straightening it!

But wouldn't it be a sight - if poodles were shown in their natural state with curly, non-blowdried hair and in a sporting/utility clip!!


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## Countryboy

LEUllman said:


> Anyone else find it ironic that we take a dog carefully bred to have a wirey, curly coat, and then insist on painstakingly teasing, blow-drying, and brushing to make the coat perfectly straight for the show ring?


LOL, LE... 

Tonka's TK was looking a little tangled as I was reading this thread. So I pulled out the mat rake and got it all fluffy again!


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## outwest

He had a bath and blow today and his hair is straight for the moment! His hair looks longer, but not so much on his head.  Countryboy, I do let him play in the dirt. 










CM, Millie had a nice bunch of hair!


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## Luthian Blue

It doesn't look as though they fluff dried him in that picture, unless he had gotten wet and dried out before you took the picture?
Not fluff drying (straightening the hair while you dry) is reason enough not to go back! If they even tidied it up without fluff drying they dont know what they are doing!
Finding a groomer who can do poodles is REALLY hard. Most haven't two clues what to do.
At least that's the case here!


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## outwest

That was a week after his bath. He was curly by the end of that day.  The picture right above your post is after a fluff and it only last a few hours. He's a curly guy, which translated to messy looking with puppy hair. LOL Here he is the day of the bath and it is already starting to curl up again. He needs more hair on his head, though, loooots more. :


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## Luthian Blue

Definitely looks like they scissored his top knot, I think some groomers think they have to! Good looking baby anyway though!


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## outwest

I do not believe they did. I called her and she emphatically denied it. When i saw her in person she again denied it. I believe her. Even if she did, she certainly won't touch him now.  I think he is topknot challenged and looks more mature than he actually is. 

My girl Bonnie is from the same breeder. I went hunting for a picture of her at the same age (14 weeks) since I was ruminating about hair. I found one! Although she is smaller (holy moly, Jazz is bigger), I was pleased to see she doesn't have any more hair on her head than he does.  Her hair was wavy/straightish- not nearly the curls that Jazz has. She has loads of hair now. 

Bonnie at 14 weeks:









Bonnie at 16 weeks:









There is hope yet!


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## Agidog

*Banding for length*

I don't think it has been cut, look at this pic of my little girl age 12 weeks and length is exactly the same I started wrapping and banding from this time to encourage growth and also get her use to having hair 'in' now at 9 months she has just enough to do first section top knot and heaps to do 2nd one. Of course was not helped by loss of complete 'fringe' at 4 months when silly mummy had clipper accident


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## poodlegang

he looks super nice.it's doesn't seem they cut his hair but even if you cut the tips it helps growing the hair, so it's not such a big disaster.And then don't worry he is black and when he will be in show coat you will wish not to have all that hair


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## HOTW

nope no trimming youd see bluntness on the tips. He has a finky curl pattern but it leads away from his eye a HUGE advanatage during the grow out period!


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## outwest

You are right, HOTW. Even when he doesn't have bands in the hair it naturally goes to each side and he can still see pretty well. Here he is at 5 months old this morning. I think it should be at the one ponytail point, but it is a nice texture for puppy hair. Maybe it's seems shorter because it's curlier (that's my wishful theory anyway ). It will be at one band in a few more weeks I think. 

If you look closely, you can see his long eyelashes (particularly on his left eye).


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## -Lilith-

I have not read all the posts. But as a groomer I am really upset that some of you think thy groomers just 'do what they want'. If an owner tells me not to do something I don't do it. Especially if you specify that the dog is a show dog. Groomers may not know how to do show grooms. But we are people as well. Don't just judge and think we did something. 


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## outwest

Lilith, I appreciate your comments. I have been going to my groomer for a long time. They don't know show cuts, but I have always trusted them to do what I ask. I love my 'pet' groomers. My dogs breeder does not and would prefer I drive to a show groomer. The trouble is- I live pretty far from any real show groomers. It would mean driving, hanging around for hours doing what? I thought I would like to show Jazz, but the poodle hair aspect of showing AKC is so overwhleming. I am not sure I am up for it. sigh. Plus, the shows I have been to lately are all handlers. My dogs breeder is several hours away. I have the number and name of a show groomer who is an hour away, but they only do show grooms on Tuesdays and I work every Tuesday. So, I take a day off to have my dogs hair cut or I throw in the towel and shave him down and do UKC. That's where I am at with hair. I can't even have him wear a collar! What if he gets lost? Poodle hair issues are so ridiculous.

By the way- at 6 months old he is now in one ponytail.


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## -Lilith-

Nice. Sorry if I come off harsh. Just don't like people assuming groomers are stupid and do whatever we want. 


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## Ladyscarletthawk

Outwest dont worry too much about the handlers.. I know easier said than done. Take some handling classes and practice with your pup, you have the advantage if you take the time to do so. He will show for you, and you can look like a strong team together. If your dog is nice enough he will do his fare share of winning! Coat care is tough and time consuming, but I find it rewarding! Of course I only have a mini and I complained a lot when I moved up from a toy.. easy peasy!!!


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## 3dogs

Heck start off showing UKC & when you get a foothold into the conformation ring & the joy of handling your dog yourself then move up to AKC. You can have your dog in a fuller cut in UKC if you desire so leave your dogs coat as is & let it grow out to AKC standards if you like. UKC NO SPRAYING. I will be going into the UKC conformation ring for the 1st time in 2013 & can't wait.

I personally feel that your pup is just a little challenged in the TK area for AKC right now. Just fine for UKC. I don't think the groomer touched anything on the TK looks the same length 1 wk later. I have a OT/Mini that takes 3 months to grow out her TK from 1 groom show to another. I think my new addition will grow lots of coat. She is now 16wks & I got her 1 wk ago, her TK is in horns right now but I had to get the hair out of her eyes. I did though trim off the eyelashes. One does take off the Lashes right? Who would put the eyelashes up in the TK? Here is Echo at 16 wks without her hair in a TK.


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## Marcoislandmom

Hi 3Dog ... Is the thumbnail in your signature your dog that you wish to show? If so, you will not be able to show AKC whatsoever since the toy is parti-colored and AKC does not allow Parti. So UKC is where you will find your show experience.


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## 3dogs

Yup, I know she is a phantom & totally want to show UKC. I won't give AKC any $$ except I have to register Echo with AKC to get my UKC registration. Our 1st show is in February in Courtland Va.


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## Marcoislandmom

I show both, but in UKC I handle myself. With AKC, depending on the judge, I will either handle myself or use a handler. Echo is very pretty. I like phantoms, however belong to an AKC club (there are no UKC clubs in the Charleston SC area.) 

The Hampton Roads Kennel Club that puts on the February show is a really nice, friendly group of people. One really fun show ... and at least the last show I did with them, where Karat got her Championship, a wonderful slate of judges ... although she only was seen by one since we left after allowing a nice Junior take her in to the champion class after doing a move-up. No other champions present so no opportunity for points toward a grand.


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## 3dogs

I am hoping to rally some poodle people to go to the Cortland Va. show. I am glad that the judges were nice. I have always had good judges at UKC when I did obedience & agility with my mixes. That is why I love the UKC so much. I think it will be a good beginner show for me & her. I have a few friends with Poodles going to the Premier in Kalamazoo, will you be going?


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