# Dolly Do No Good



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Dolly's very pretty - if a bit of a rascal! Congrats!


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

so cute!


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks guys I htink we all agree she's a looker!

I was hoping for some "expert" opinions on her conformation, anyone??


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Without putting hands on her, it can be hard to give an accurate evaluation. Plus, at 17 weeks she is going to still change a lot. She looks nicely square at this point. I think most of my comments are grooming issues:

1. Can you take her closer on her topline?

2. The way the rear is scissored, it looks like her croup slopes too much (or like she has a low tail set). Can you take that line out straighter in the back to make her croup look flatter? 

3. Did you scissor the hocks? For some reason, she looks sickle hocked in this picture but I think it is grooming issue. I just don't know how to tell you fix it.

4. Again, I can't put my finger on it (this is why I pay a pro to do my puppy trims), but I think the front of the back leg is scissored too close and the back of the back leg is not scissored closely enough.

Oh.. and when you stack her, try not to pull down on the skin on her neck. If you need to hold onto something, pull her off-side lips to the side.


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## Rockporters (Jan 14, 2010)

She's a cutie! It's hard to tell with confirmation, I think, because of the cut. cbrand had some really good suggestions. 

This is a terrible stacked photo of Jasper but might help you visualize the points she was making about the cut. iPhone Photo | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

The only part that has been scissored is by her tail, flank and her cuffs. Yes I do have her by the neck but she is a wiggler and i was going to give her a chance to jump off the table(which she would have) This is basically her stacking herself without pulling her rear legs out to create angulation. I prefer to save coat and not overscissor her at this time. What you see is mostly dog not hair.


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

Here's a pic of of her off side. She usually has a 12 o'clock carriage but was not happy.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Much better picture. I think that with that hair off the topline, it would make her look like she had more neck and a much better croup angle. She may still have a bit of a low tail set. Hocks look better in this photo. Poodles that are sickle hocked usually move down on their hocks. Given that she is white you will know soon enough since the back of the hocks get dirty when you gait them. 

Other things?


Lovely feet. Square. Nice angle in the stifle. Looks like a good lay back. Nice long ears. Good depth of chest. Head? We'll see.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

What a lovely square little girl. Lovely angulation. Good tail set. Nice feet. Pretty , pretty girl! I know a wonderful male who could make incredible babies with this little girl. He is a UKC Grand Champion, who I believe finished in the top ten in NA last year. Gorgeous Tux boy.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Dolly is a great looking parti! Great feedback given too. Hopefully this girl gives you what you are looking for. Stunning.


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

Dolly's mom is a tux. Dolly's already had a cardiac exam-perfect and CERF. Next we'll do her DNA VwD, then a prelim hip score. I would prefer to see more underjaw on her but my male has a very nice head so did his sire. I prefer a little more substance at this age on the head but she is female. Could you PM the dog? I would sure be interested in knowing about him for future reference!

I do have some ideas on which lines I want to bring in, some of which have beautiful heads that would reinforce head type. I see a huge lack of lowerjaw in Standards right now. I know of a stud that has not been used that I would die to bring that line in and he fits my ideal of a Poodle. I picked him as pick of the litter from pics at 6, 8 &12 weeks and he sure met that goal! (little did I know when I was presented the pics he was already a finished dog)

Dolly is short backed according to her measurements and I dont want to see it come up any shorter than it is. Video is extremly difficult first because my camera doesnt do good vid and the fact is she leaps and charges and bounds before settling into a good trot! 

Right now she is just growing legs! It has been interesting to watch her develop she is closely following Joker's growth at the same age we expect her to be around 23", she has more substance in body than he did so I am very happy at that I see a lot of Poodles lacking in spring and her Mom had great spring as well!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

HOTW said:


> Dolly's mom is a tux. Dolly's already had a cardiac exam-perfect and CERF. Next we'll do her DNA VwD, then a prelim hip score.


CERF and Cardio will need to be repeated once you get ready to breed. They are not "permanent" tests. A dog that has a passing CERF at 1 yr can turn up with changes to the eye at age 3. The same is true with Cardio. That is why these tests are repeated yearly.




> I would prefer to see more underjaw on her but my male has a very nice head so did his sire. I prefer a little more substance at this age on the head but she is female.


Heads are tricky. People say that you can fix heads in one generation, but I'm seeing a whole lot of Poodle heads that are not very good. Lack of underjaw is certainly a problem. You see it in the ultra refined show dog heads where the dogs have lean heads and tremendous length of muzzle but then this nose that just sticks out at the end with nothing underneath. However, I'm also seeing heavy jowly Poodle heads that are wide and thick down under the eye but that wedge out to a point with no underjaw either.  hwell: Another thing I really, really dislike are down-faced Poodles. Poodles should have a fore face that extends straight out so that the plain of the top of the skull and the plane of the top of the muzzle are parallel. Too many Standards these days have muzzles that angle down from their stop so that they end up having heads that look like sight hounds. 

Afghan








Good Poodle head











> Dolly is short backed according to her measurements and I dont want to see it come up any shorter than it is.


Once again, understand what the standard is saying. The Poodle is supposed to be square with a short loin:

_Proportion....To insure the desirable squarely built appearance, the length of body measured from the breastbone to the point of the rump approximates the height from the highest point of the shoulders to the ground.
Body......The loin is short, broad and muscular. _

No where does our standard call for a "short back".


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

HOTW said:


> Dolly's mom is a tux. Dolly's already had a cardiac exam-perfect and CERF. Next we'll do her DNA VwD, then a prelim hip score. I would prefer to see more underjaw on her but my male has a very nice head so did his sire. I prefer a little more substance at this age on the head but she is female. Could you PM the dog? I would sure be interested in knowing about him for future reference!
> 
> I do have some ideas on which lines I want to bring in, some of which have beautiful heads that would reinforce head type. I see a huge lack of lowerjaw in Standards right now. I know of a stud that has not been used that I would die to bring that line in and he fits my ideal of a Poodle. I picked him as pick of the litter from pics at 6, 8 &12 weeks and he sure met that goal! (little did I know when I was presented the pics he was already a finished dog)
> 
> ...


Yepper. Underjaw and chests seem to be lacking in most of the Spoos regardless of colour. I see it in my own, which I am working on fixing, and have noticed in in darned near every Standard I have seen lately, either at shows or in the magazines. Such a shame. Thankfully we have the males entire pedigree to work with which can bring goodies to the table to help us make improvements.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Fronts are hard because there are many parts: layback, length and angle of upper arm, fore-chest (sternum), breadth of chest. Regarding fore-chest, I have personally seen some pretty nice sternums on poodles coming down out of Avatar Concord and Jim Johnson locally owns a young boy who has a great fore-chest. All is not lost.


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

I am fully aware of what the standard calls for, what amazes me is how that is not always what gets a CH in the show ring. I dislike the overrefined heads that are in abundance now. Or the overtall dog that are groomed to appear square and have high set tails with extrmely short backs that have no extension or forward drive in their movement. They're typey and very fancy but not correct. I have owned Std poos for 13 years and not only have I studied the breed intensely I have done my own pedigree research(32 generations) thru pictorial studies. It makes a huge difference when you study a pedigree because you can see in your head the dogs behind your own.

I know that tests have to be repeated, I prefer to make sure from the start the dog has good results. Back when I had my first male I had hips.elbows and patellas done when people were usually just doing hips.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

HOTW said:


> I have owned Std poos for 13 years and not only have I studied the breed intensely I have done my own pedigree research(32 generations) thru pictorial studies. It makes a huge difference when you study a pedigree because you can see in your head the dogs behind your own.


Can you post pictures of the dogs in your pedigree? I'd love to see them.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

HOTW said:


> I am fully aware of what the standard calls for, what amazes me is how that is not always what gets a CH in the show ring. I dislike the overrefined heads that are in abundance now. Or the overtall dog that are groomed to appear square and have high set tails with extrmely short backs that have no extension or forward drive in their movement. They're typey and very fancy but not correct. I have owned Std poos for 13 years and not only have I studied the breed intensely I have done my own pedigree research(32 generations) thru pictorial studies. It makes a huge difference when you study a pedigree because you can see in your head the dogs behind your own.
> 
> I know that tests have to be repeated, I prefer to make sure from the start the dog has good results. Back when I had my first male I had hips.elbows and patellas done when people were usually just doing hips.


I agree with the photos in a pedigree. My co-owner and I went to every site available in Quincy's pedigree and once we saw a lot of the dogs in his background, that clinched it for us. I was going to import him anyway, because I loved a lot of what I saw in him, but seeing the photos of his ancestors...well...it confirmed we were not wrong. They are stunning, and a lot of the dogs called apricot in the pedigree are not apricot at all but red, Because red was not a recognized colour in Europe, if breeders got red, they called them apricot, so what a pleasant surprise to actually see some of them.

I agree with what you are saying about a lot of champions today. It seems flash over substance is what is winning, and a lot of the flash has nothing to do with the standard of the breed. I cannot believe the number of heavily, over angulated dogs there are out there. Not correct angulation. Crazy over angulation. If we keep breeding for flash, are we not going to see the same kind of thing in Standards that has happened in Shepherds? Eventually the back end will become weaker and weaker as the back legs stretch further and further out from the dog. I personally do not like it. If the ankle bones are past the pin bones, is this not over angulation. and some of these big winners are WAY past the pin bone. Just my opinion.


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

cbrand said:


> Can you post pictures of the dogs in your pedigree? I'd love to see them.


I don;; think I have any dogs in my lineage..but then again my fmaily's British so i'm sure some are lurking!! bwahahahahahhahahahaha....


sorry couldn't help it. Pulled soem hard drives , found 2 of Joker's sire but the one that had the pictures from teh pedigree was unrecoverable (DH term he's the puter expert) I am so ticked and disappointed but I can probalbly find most of them again. The ones i won't be able to are the dam's as the breeder has passed away and I have no idea what has happeend to her "stuff". But his g-granddam was Alekai All the Rage so if anyone can find a pic of her I'd really appreciate it very much!! I am gald I have a backup of hsi pedigree ont he same HD of the 2 pics but I have to find a program to open it!


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