# Breeder questions



## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

*Pedigree*

I found what she meant by pedigree.
The female dog I'm getting a puppy from is named Alishe. I found her daughter's pedigree from the MSCA's website. The pedigree does seem impressive. What is International Champion mean?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Are you really sure this is a good idea? Since Lucky is going to be your service dog I think you want to work on deepening his bond to you rather than having a buddy. His centripetal attraction for you should trump everything else. 

I don't know anything about this breed so I can't comment on particular health things you should be concerned for, but I will say that having the pedigree and OFA information on dog's in the potential pup's pedigree should give you some important information.

As to contracts, they can be long or short and still say what they need to. If a breeder is a good person they will honor the contract without question. The contract for Javelin was one page and didn't specify all sorts of contingencies, but I had gotten to know Delana well enough that I had no reservations. If we had a problem that I thought she should help me deal with I have no doubt she would do so.

If the breed club president has dogs from this breeder and she is taking deposits in advance of planned breedings that is a decent indication that these dogs are from good lines. The breeder's reputation is speaking for itself.

Again though, and I don't want to seem like a buzz kill, I wonder whether this is really the right road to pursue at this time since Lucky is going to work for you and is still very young.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Lily, thank you for writing such a thoughtful response. My fiance brought up the exact same point about the service dog issue and his age and we had a lengthy discussion about it. I figured by the time the puppy goes to a new home, Lucky would be 1-year-old. I am considering making the new dog help assist with my other health concerns. I'm not the healthiest human being. I hope if they are both undergoing the same training, it would reduce obedience issues. I had also hoped they would be good companions together because they probably would be similar in size.

On OFA cert: A really wonderful member on this pf messaged me and said you can look OFA on their website and I indeed found all of her dogs. This was super helpful. I think Stoneybrook is a fantastic breeder, I just am very unfamiliar with some of the process. Also, the majority of the 5-page document that was sent over was on health and how to take care of your Maremma rather than legal exclusions.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I tend to agree with Catherine - I think a puppy and an adolescent are probably neither of them going to be concentrating on working towards service dog status... Are you really thinking of Lucky, or pursuing your dream of another Maremma? Nothing wrong with that, of course, but it might be wiser to wait till Lucky is older and fully trained.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

You should maybe take inquiries about Sheepdogs to a Sheepdog forum, no?


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Unfortunately, there is no sheepdog forum. That's why it is in other animal section.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

fjm said:


> I tend to agree with Catherine - I think a puppy and an adolescent are probably neither of them going to be concentrating on working towards service dog status... Are you really thinking of Lucky, or pursuing your dream of another Maremma? Nothing wrong with that, of course, but it might be wiser to wait till Lucky is older and fully trained.


Agree 100%. If you truly need a service dog, your focus, 100%, should be on bonding with and training your service dog. It takes a tremendous amount of work and time to do that training properly.

I wish you well.

Viking Queen


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Can you push back a deposit? I think Alishe is 6 years old and her best female dog. This is mostly because of the temperament. Do females usually retire at that age from breeding?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

With Javelin's breeder and his litter, originally when I sent my deposit (a very nominal $100 and before the litter was born but after the pregnancy was confirmed) there was a person in front of me for a boy. She had pushed back from the previous litter (as I recall because there wasn't a pup left from that litter that was what she wanted. Once the pups were on the ground, this lady's older dog was diagnosed with cancer and she decided she couldn't handle a puppy, but wanted to focus on caring for her older dog. Her deposit was refunded to her since she really was very uncertain about what was ahead of her. I felt badly for this woman, but consider myself very lucky to have been able to choose my Javvy out of the five males. There was a person lower on the list who had been to visit to choose ahead of me and he wanted my boy as his top pick. He made two choices and got his second pick.

I think with this breeder you would probably find that he would either refund your deposit or hold it against a later litter since she seems to have an excellent word of mouth reputation.

I hadn't thought of the point that fjm brought up about wanting another Maremma, but having just lost your previous dog I do think she raises a good point that your thinking must be driven in part by missing that dog.

I would focus on Lucky for now.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Lily, FJM is right I really do miss my other dog. I definitely want a Maremma but it is just a matter of when. I'm gonna have to think long and hard on this one. I haven't told anyone other than my bf because they would probably berate me (esp my sanctimonious mother). My bf understands because he sees me sad so often and staring at past photos or videos everyday. I am also finding myself bonding with Lucky, I found the training classes helped tremendously. I mostly feel really good because he is the second best-trained dogs in that class...(beaten by 2 yr old border collie off course). 

Lily, in terms of holding a place in line, Stoneybrook told me that she matches the dog to the person's need. I had originally thought it was first come first serve depending on the timing of deposit, which is good because I am the last reserve on Alishe out of 6. I wonder if that means you can't pick out a pup or she would give you a few to choose from? When do female dogs retire from breeding?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

snow0160 said:


> Unfortunately, there is no sheepdog forum. That's why it is in other animal section.


Here's a few. Some of their members may know the breeder.

forum.oes.org ? Index page

Forums - Sheepdog Forum

Old English Sheepdog Forum

Old English Sheepdog Forums


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Countryboy said:


> Here's a few. Some of their members may know the breeder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL Nice effort but the second one is a *GUN FORUM*with a gun brand called "sheepdog response" I doubt you looked at it for longer than two seconds. 



You do realize that Old English Sheepdog is another breed from an entirely different group---they belong to the herding group and have more in common with the collies. You can't just search "sheepdog" LOL


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

There IS a Maremma Sheepdog Forum.......Google it, it's there! Also the Maremma Sheepdog Club of America has it's own Yahoo forum too! Maybe they can help answer your questions!


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I had decided to join the Great Pyrenees forum. There is a Maremma forum and the entire forum has under 10 posts. There are two Maremma Sheepdog yahoo group and one has less than 20 posts for the entire 2016 and the other stopped died in 2012.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

None of my business, but I feel sorry for Lucky. It seems you have him, but really want the other dog that passed. Do you really feel that is fair to Lucky especially getting him trained for a service dog. I have 3 poodles now, and loved and still do love the 5 I have lost, but I am totally happy with what I have now, and never compare them to the ones I lost.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't think feeling sorry for Lucky is terribly helpful to the OP. She is clearly between a rock and a hard place in her feelings. I recall that her BF chose Lucky for her so I think I might feel conflicted in that situation too.

I also have the impression that she is not so sure how well Lucky will do with assisting her. I do still think she has a lot to work through but trying to chase her away or make her feel badly isn't really going to help her with that thinking. I also still think she should give herself some more time with Lucky developing her bond with him and letting him mature before she thinks about adding another dog. An adolescent (Lucky) and a puppy is a very big challenge to handle under the best of circumstances, let alone trying to develop the relationship and work for a service dog. 

A Maremma as I understand it is not a herding dog but a sheep guarding dog like a Great Pyrenees, so a working group dog. Yeah an old English sheepdog forum is of little use. Even a German Shepherd dog forum probably would be of little use for the OP to learn more about Maremmas and who in the US are the good breeders of them.

snow I am sorry there isn't more of an online community for help with Maremmas, but I guess that is because they are still quite rare here (USA), right?


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Yep they are very rare in this country only a handful of breeders. I actually talked to breeders from the UK (they are part of the kennel club) and Australia. They originate from Italy but I don't speak Italian. As far as I know the MSCA has no desire to join the AKC because of the Great Pyrenees. Their popularity caused a surge in abandoned dogs . They are very different from most breeds out there


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I had never heard of this breed before. Good looking dogs! Since you have had one before, I was wondering how it might get along with a Poodle and your seniors. If you don't think it will upset the balance of your animal household or test the patience of your BF, then go for it.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

there is a maremma sheepdog of america club, which i assume you are familiar with. i knew the breed existed and sheepdog is pretty clear, but nothing else. so i did look at the info on breed characteristics. most fascinating thing i found was how they are being used in australia to protect some native species (penguins, etc) from being driven to extinction by non-native predators (foxes, for one).

reading the breed characteristics, i can see how comforting they could be. they are bred to be totally committed to their task. 

i can also understand why devotees do not want akc membership for these dogs. think of the akc standard for poodles and the insistence on excluding partis, etc., which possibly helped wipe out or at least suppress some of the breed's diversity. you do have to be careful about designing animals by committee.


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## Dreamer (Oct 10, 2016)

*Livestock Guardian Dog*

The Maremma is a Livestock Guardian Dog, not a sheepdog, nor a herding breed, they are a Guard Dog.

OP please check out LGD.org and join their mailing list. They are a wealth of information you wouldn't even consider asking! 

PLEASE Feel free to DM are as well. I have experience with LGD, and they are not just a dog, and though they can and do live as pets on occasion, it really isn't their place in the world. They are lovely, but like nothing you have experienced, ever  

These breeds (group) are not for the faint of heart, and are so much work until they mature at over 3 years of age, and then they will decide what needs to be taken care of, no matter what you say. They can be trained, but if a "threat" present she itself they will instinctively act, without asking your opinion.

Hundred if not thousands of years of selective breeding for dogs who will make their own decisions is an amazing thing to see, quite another to live with.

I have made it a mission in life to try to help those who want that information, as I lived with it, and though it wasn't the best dog education I ever had, it was SO difficult, and oftentimes heartbreaking.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

patk said:


> most fascinating thing i found was how they are being used in australia to protect some native species (penguins, etc) from being driven to extinction by non-native predators (foxes, for one).



Ha Patk. Thanks for looking into them. Maremma saved a native penguin species from extinction in Middle Island in Western Australia. There is a movie made in Australia called *Odd Ball* based on the events that happened. I tried to purchase it on iTunes, Amazon, but apparently, you can't because it was only released in Australia. My more tech-savvy bf found it and I watched it. It is a really cute family movie but it like a Disney movie, it will make you cry. 
Just got back from AKC Pet tricks class that ran way overtime. Lucky learned to pray today and go through a tunnel.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Dreamer said:


> The Maremma is a Livestock Guardian Dog, not a sheepdog, nor a herding breed, they are a Guard Dog.
> 
> OP please check out LGD.org and join their mailing list. They are a wealth of information you wouldn't even consider asking!
> 
> ...


I did have a Maremma. They are indeed very very different from other dogs. I will PM you.  Thanks for LGD.org. I wish their community was active.


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