# not a believer



## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

When I brought Zoe home I didn't know a thing about dogs. I interviewed Two trainers and the first I didn't like the way he was going to starve the dog before our first visit to make her more compliant . I ended up with another trainer from Bark Busters who seem to know what he was saying at the time. I paid for a year of service ,and when I learned more about dogs I did not like their entire philosophy about being the pack leader etc. Everything predicates from believing that.

I have worked with him a few times, but he could tell I do not buy into what he was preaching. I feel since I forked out 600$ I still would like to work with him on a few issues.

The two main issues I have are I never taught her proper lead walking. Each time I took treats and pulled tighter to have her next to me. It made my arm hurt over a long walk so I gave up.

My other problem is since I went away Thanksgiving weekend she hides under the couch before her last outing outside like 10:30 ish. The only way to get her out is with a treat. This is ticking me off! If my parents watch her again they can not deal with that, it is too much for them.

The trainer basically lectured me on not following thru with the exercises he gave me, including slamming her crate until I tell her it is time to come out. I told him that only instills fear and I will not do. This was at the beginning of meeting with him many months ago. As you can tell he is not exactly thrilled to be working with me.

He told me that he is not sure why he is coming out to work with me. I explained that I put down the money and while I do not buy into a lot of what he's selling I still feel it is beneficial for a trainer who is experienced to help me with lead walking.
Doesn't that make sense? I do not want to just flush 600$ down a toilet.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I suspect that his methods will involve a lot of leash corrections and other forceful stuff, which may not be the way you want to go. I think I would try to negotiate a refund, or simply stop using his services, especially if you are paying his travel expenses on top of the original fee. And perhaps start an "if I had known then what I know now" thread to warn others against paying up front before thoroughly getting to know the trainer's ethos, and whether it gels with your own.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Bark busters is known for their intimidation tactics. I'd run, not walk from this trainer who told you to slam the crate. You're right. It only instills fear. Some of their methods involve throwing things at dogs when they bark and so forth. You can get a progressive trainer or forget trainers all together. It sounds like you've been learning a lot and I bet you can do these couple issues yourself. 

The under the couch thing...here's what you can try. First, stop bribing her with a treat. What is it she's trying to avoid by staying under the couch? Does the last outing to her mean that the fun times are about to end? Does she have to go someplace she doesn't like, like in the crate or to bed where she's not ready yet? Maybe the last outing has become a predictor of an inadvertent (on your part) punishment. Try putting her on a leash ahead of time so she can't go under the couch. Take her outside. Then bring her in and do something she loves. Give her a treat, play a favorite game, use a special toy reserved for this purpose only. Then when she's tired, put her to bed and THEN give a little treat. Make the crate pleasant for her as much as possible. If she whines because she's not wanting to be in there, like at night for sleeping, you'll need to simply ignore her until she resigns herself that it's bed time. (like a little kid. lol)

For leash walking, that can be fixed up too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgtqgiAKoQ

You must be consistent and follow through. There is no need for intimidation, pain, fright and all the rest of the crap some of these trainers dish out. You can train a dog and maintain your good relationship. A good, trusting relationship is vital in training any dog while making them want to do things for you, making them eager to learn and comply.

You can turn these little problems right around. I have no doubt!

Happy training!


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

I'd probably cut my losses here. If you're not buying in on his philosophy then you're not going to do the exercises and it's all a waste of time. Especially the banging on the crate part. That's just mean, IMO

Rick


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Thank you everyone.
Poodlebeguiled _ I will check later the link to dog walking, thanks .Taking my kids to see the movie Annie. They are off for Chanukah.

She loves her crate , goes in it all day. She is avoiding going to bed at 11. Sometimes she just likes to hang under couch at night to be cozy and will not come out. She is not just running under there, although sometimes she is.. She is just tired from her day and doesn't feel like going in the cold for a pee before bed. I can not blame her, but she needs to.

I need more suggestions on what to do.

Maybe I will not meet with him, or see what has he has to say and if anything drastic I will not follow . It is worth one last try, especially since I am not making progress.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

What a shame to be out the 600 bucks, but if this trainer is doing more harm than good then there really is no choice.

I used a trainer a few years ago with Lily when I felt overwhelmed with her reactivity. She assured me she could take care of the problem in one visit- and I was feeling overwhelmed and decided to try it. First thing she wanted to do was put a prong collar on her. Lily is 12 lbs. I said no and we worked with a martingale instead - all corrections, no treats at all. I didn't feel good about it but I wasn't getting anywhere with a positive based trainer- because I think Lily's issues were beyond her experience level. 

After a couple sessions, Lily looked at me with fear in her eyes when I did a correction and that was the end of it. I fired the trainer, did some research and wound up taking to her to behaviorist who taught me how to manage her behavior using positive techniques. And she responded beautifully, lots and lots of consistency!

Lily is different than your Zoe though- came with much baggage and I needed some pretty expert guidance. I have been able to train my other dogs without problems. I was feeling desperate with her, and this trainer was very willing to exploit that. Sounds like Barkbusters operates under a similar philosophy. I shudder to think where Lily would be now if I had continued with that trainer.

Zoe's issues sound very manageable, and you've had her since she was a puppy, so she has a good solid basis for training. You got some great tips on how to do this yourself, wish you much luck and encouragement!


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I just want to add to the chorus of associating something really good with that last outing. Poodle beguiled gave you some really good advice. Make it be the thing she can't wait to have, and put some time between the outing and the crate,so it isn't associated with it. Can you give her a really good treat only at night? Something really special? Maybe a frozen Kong to go in the crate with? Just don't put too much in it or she may need to go before the night is over!

We also had good luck with an easy walk harness. I know it doesn't fix the underlying behavior, but it made our walks manageable and lessened my frustration. I trained on a flat collar in short sessions, but used the harness for our couple mile walk so we could have a good walk. They do sense when you're at the end of your rope:act-up:


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

Since our puppies are the same age I am wondering if 11pm is too late. Willow gets up at 6am and ready for bed by 9pm. Maybe she needs to go to bed earlier?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would think about hopetocurl's idea about schedule since your pups are similar in age and size. I also would ditch the trainer. I know it is a drag to feel like you've wasted money but there is no sense in working with someone whose methods are really at odds with your goals. 

For loose leash walking what I suggest is that when the dog starts to pull on the leash you say "oopsie" and "let's go" then turn around and start walking in the opposite direction. When Zoe figures out that every time she starts to pull you stop her to go in a different direction she will stop pulling. If you search for some of my old posts where people asked about pulling on leash you will find some more info.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I used to take gentle leader with me when I walked my young dog. If I ran out of patience in leash training her rather than get angry, I would tell her if you pull, you get this harness. Then I would walk her with the gentle leader for a while. Then take off the head harness and try again without it. I felt this was better than me getting upset with the dog and perhaps over correcting her with the leash.

If you meet the trainer again, ask for a partial refund. Tell him you would rather part on good terms than have to give them a bad review on yelp.


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## Specman (Jun 14, 2012)

I used Bark Busters with a previous dog and was not impressed with their methods. My pom would wet himself every time the trainer would work with him!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I just read more about them. It seems they are a lot like Cesar Milan, only instead of using "shhhhhhhh" they use "Bahhhhhh", and they throw little bags filled with chains at the dogs. They have really bad reviews for the most part. 

I think you are doing a great job with her on your own.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

your trainer sounds like a jerk. consider yourself lucky it only cost you $600 to find out. i would not trust someone like that near my dog.

can you wrap the bottom of the couch with something like saran wrap to discourage her from going under? right now, rewarding her with a treat for coming out is, at least in imo, actually reinforcing her sense that under the couch can be a pretty good deal. i think i would buy something like a porch potty The #1 Selling Grass Litter Box for Dogs - Potty Training Made Easy and put it in the garage so she doesn't have to go outdoors in pouring rain or freezing cold. it's something i'm looking at doing myself down the road - i'm even thinking a doggie door into that area could work...

leash training can be tricky depending on the dog. none of the techniques i tried ever worked on my dog. for one thing, pulling meant he always knew i was on the other end, so in a way pulling became self-rewarding. and i could never convince myself to use a nose halter, prong or pinch on him. i think if you really know what you're doing, it can work, but they are not to be taken lightly. have you tried the peanut butter on the end of a long-handled wooden spoon held in front of her nose and close to your leg technique? i think the theory is that it delivers a constant potential reward for the dog staying in the "heel" position...


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I would not let this guy near my dog. I hate hearing about this kind of training.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

hopetocurl said:


> Since our puppies are the same age I am wondering if 11pm is too late. Willow gets up at 6am and ready for bed by 9pm. Maybe she needs to go to bed earlier?


She dozes on the couch or under it with us. She loves that! If i put her in earlier she whimpers.
I don't just put her straight into crate. I take her out a half hr before bed time.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

N2Mischief said:


> I just read more about them. It seems they are a lot like Cesar Milan, only instead of using "shhhhhhhh" they use "Bahhhhhh", and they throw little bags filled with chains at the dogs. They have really bad reviews for the most part.
> 
> I think you are doing a great job with her on your own.




Thank you. My first vet who I hated gave me the card, explains alot


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Specman said:


> I used Bark Busters with a previous dog and was not impressed with their methods. My pom would wet himself every time the trainer would work with him!




Funny enough she seemed to like him. I just dislike his methods


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> I would think about hopetocurl's idea about schedule since your pups are similar in age and size. I also would ditch the trainer. I know it is a drag to feel like you've wasted money but there is no sense in working with someone whose methods are really at odds with your goals.
> 
> For loose leash walking what I suggest is that when the dog starts to pull on the leash you say "oopsie" and "let's go" then turn around and start walking in the opposite direction. When Zoe figures out that every time she starts to pull you stop her to go in a different direction she will stop pulling. If you search for some of my old posts where people asked about pulling on leash you will find some more info.


I would be afraid to let go of the leash on streets. I am too nervous as my friends dog got hit by a car a few months ago.


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## myuniquepoodle (Sep 22, 2014)

Hi,
About the leash work and your arm hurting I found a helpful trick for that if you don't want to be bending down all the time. If your dog like peanut butter find a long spatula and slab some peanut butter on that and then you have an extra extension to your arm just hold the end of the spatula and there you have a way to not have your arm hurt so much 

~Natalie and Ginger


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have had dogs all my life and I have never been anything but soft and sweet with my dogs. Stella is the first and only one that I had to make sure she knew I was the pack leader, she was a fearful dog when I got her. (2 1/2 years old) I was her 3rd home...she felt she had to control everything. It caused her to act out and fight our other dog. This was very confusing for me , as I felt I needed to be even softer on her and make her feel comfortable. Turns out, she needed me to be more firm and take control, she was so much happier when she knew that I had this and she could just relax. I don't think any type of training can be a sure fit for every dog. Dogs are different, just like people.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

mom2Zoe said:


> Thank you everyone.
> Poodlebeguiled _ I will check later the link to dog walking, thanks .Taking my kids to see the movie Annie. They are off for Chanukah.
> 
> She loves her crate , goes in it all day. She is avoiding going to bed at 11. Sometimes she just likes to hang under couch at night to be cozy and will not come out. She is not just running under there, although sometimes she is.. She is just tired from her day and doesn't feel like going in the cold for a pee before bed. I can not blame her, but she needs to.
> ...


Ok, I kind of missed some of what you were saying. In this case then, what you can do is...........at other times when she's hanging out under the couch and you don't mind that she hangs out under the couch, but you want her to come out when you ask her...you can practice at random times during the day...just a few reps coaxing her out. (use a leash if you must) And do something else...not go outside but something she might like to do that's especially fun AND tasty! lol. Then let her go back in. Then out again, then in again. Make the whole thing into a game...lots of reward when she comes out, mild verbal "good" when she goes in. THEN...start adding a cue once she's onto the game. (not before) Maybe use something different from "come" or "let's go." This isn't to go anywhere with you at this point. It's just an in and out, in and out game. Use a very special, prey-like toy and squeaks and wiggles, and when she comes out, give her a high value treat like chicken or steak tid bits, loads of giggles, your silly, playful voice and send her back in under the couch again. Volley back and forth between going under the couch and back out again.

After she's really onto the game, mix things up. Have her come with you into the kitchen after coming out from under the couch. Do different things. Go outside for a few minutes but not every time.

If you don't want her under the couch at all, you'll need to prevent her from going under there and reinforce her for an alternative spot that you can make that is somewhat like being under the couch if that's what she likes.

Watch that Kikopup video. It's a great way for teaching not to pull. Basically, you're not going anywhere in particular, just back and forth along the side walk and trying to intercept any tension in the lead by doing what she shows in the video...reinforce, reinforce, reinforce for nice walking and FREQUENTLY. The problem people have often is that they don't give the dog enough feed back. So, frequent reinforcing is important...every couple steps that she takes while there's slack in the leash. The second there's tension in the lead, the walking forward stops. Either you can just stop or you can turn and make zig zags, circles, go back along the same boring path you just took...vary it. She'll get the idea that to go adventuring, she needs to keep slack in the leash. Be consistent. That's imperative.

I agree that to cut your losses is the best thing. Don't have this trainer around your dog anymore. You need to start making positive associations with training exercise and the person working with the dog. Training-person = good times and lots of learning.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't know if you already are, but when you take her out to pee at night (on a leash if necessary) be sure to offer her a super duper, culinary delight. After that, you could play for a couple minutes with her, probably not wildly if she's to go to bed soon, but just something a little extra special about going out at that time. So, in other words, going out that last time at night can be something to look forward to, not something she doesn't want to do.


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

MiniPoo said:


> If you meet the trainer again, ask for a partial refund. Tell him you would rather part on good terms than have to give them a bad review on yelp.


Now you're talking!


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## jenniferandtonks (Nov 17, 2014)

mom2Zoe said:


> I would be afraid to let go of the leash on streets. I am too nervous as my friends dog got hit by a car a few months ago.


i think there is a misunderstanding of the term loose leash here. a loose leash does not refer to letting go of the leash. to have the dog on a loose leash, you want the dog's well-fitted, in good repair (check the stitching or grommets, the buckle, and the ring that the leash clips to often for signs of weakness or wear regularly) collar or harness securely snapped to one end of the leash and the other end in your somewhat relaxed hands (a point between no tension at all in your hands and a death grip that's slightly to the relaxed side of the half-way point of both) ready to respond to a change in tension on the leash between you and the dog. where the "loose" comes in is that you do not feel any pulling on the leash, just the weight of the leash in your hand. some drape of the leash is okay but you don't want so much slack they can get more than one or two step's running start if they take off after something exciting or that they can potentially become tangled in the slack. gentle pressure can be used on the leash to alert the dog to a change of pace or direction, then you should be able to relax the pressure again until the next time you need to give directions.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

mom2Zoe said:


> I would be afraid to let go of the leash on streets. I am too nervous as my friends dog got hit by a car a few months ago.



You don't let go of the leash with my method. Jenniferandtonks explanation is correct. You just stop when she pulls, say "oopsie" then turn around and say "let's go" so she know she doesn't choose where to go or the pace. It isn't instant but it has worked for many dogs I've worked with in addition to mine.

I also think the idea of asking for a partial refund to avoid a bad online review is brilliant.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh dear God...no, you don't let go of the leash on a street. Loose leash means slack in the leash, not tension while you're holding it. The dog's pulling on the leash must not work for her. She can learn that the only way to get to take a walk is to not pull on the leash.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> I would think about hopetocurl's idea about schedule since your pups are similar in age and size. I also would ditch the trainer. I know it is a drag to feel like you've wasted money but there is no sense in working with someone whose methods are really at odds with your goals.
> 
> For loose leash walking what I suggest is that when the dog starts to pull on the leash you say "oopsie" and "let's go" then turn around and start walking in the opposite direction. When Zoe figures out that every time she starts to pull you stop her to go in a different direction she will stop pulling. If you search for some of my old posts where people asked about pulling on leash you will find some more info.



I read it fast and thought you said let go instead of let's go. lol
I do not have enough guts to ask for a partial refund. I did work with him a few times and it all fairness he believes in his method of training even if i do not.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

myuniquepoodle said:


> Hi,
> About the leash work and your arm hurting I found a helpful trick for that if you don't want to be bending down all the time. If your dog like peanut butter find a long spatula and slab some peanut butter on that and then you have an extra extension to your arm just hold the end of the spatula and there you have a way to not have your arm hurt so much
> 
> ~Natalie and Ginger


 Brilliant. i am going to try tomorrow


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