# Asher's Journey To Being a Comp. Obedience and Agility Dog



## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

You are looking well on your way with Asher - agility and obedience -good show. I will follow you on your new journeys eagerly.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I didn't get to watch the agility videos, but I did watch most of the obedience video. Keeping in mind that free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it (nothing) feel free to accept or reject any or all of the following as you see fit.

1. I would ditch the little helpers while you are teaching things.

2. I know you are still working on a show quality continental, but I would not teach basics without a collar and leash. I think it leaves too much room to install incorrect behaviors.

3. There is a lot to be said for rewarding a dog to release behind the dog, but don't you step out of position to do it. Use a reward that you can reliably throw behind Asher without you stepping out.

4. Be careful that you are rewarding the best responses and giving him information about what is incorrect. I saw you look to see if he was on the platform but feed him anyway even though he wasn't on with all four feet or centered on the platform. I would only feed him for finding his position well centered on the platform. I also would be feeding him for finding heel position and not so much from front.

5. You can use the platform for teaching a tuck sit and a fold down drop along with a kick back stand. I am guessing he has a good kick back stand to get stacked already.

As I said in relationship to your PJ video I think it is awesome that you want to show the true versatility of poodles with Asher. He will be a true versatile winner just like Mario Andretti and Eddie Merckx. For those of you who don't know who those guys are check Wikipedia!


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Thanks guys.


lily cd re said:


> 1. I would ditch the little helpers while you are teaching things.
> *Usually I do his training during feeding time so my pom is in a kennel, and my mini poodle is usually less in the way but I should put them both away when working on it.*
> 2. I know you are still working on a show quality continental, but I would not teach basics without a collar and leash. I think it leaves too much room to install incorrect behaviors.
> *I'm bad for working on things without a leash. In fact his leash (and collar)
> ...


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I think that it is wonderful that you will have a record of his progress! Have fun!


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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Awesome thread! I'll be following your progress!!!


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Interesting to watch - he sure is gorgeous and moves like a top athlete.

I have some questions. What were you doing with the board? I've never seen that before. Was that for conformation?

Do you have hand signals for sit, lay down, stand etc? You seem to be teaching him so differently from what I was shown so it was interesting to watch. I know there are different techniques you can use to get to the same end.

We also have a peanut gallery when training and like you I train Babykins with her food - breakfast and dinner time. My peanut gallery are cats and I can't/won't lock them away. As long as Babykins is focused on me and not on them I think it's fine and she is learning to work with distractions. I thought your other two dogs were really sweet and not fighting Asher for food treats which would be a problem.

Like you I also teach inside my home without a leash, although I did use the leash in the initial training to heel and when we practice on the driveway or a quiet paved street. I'm not sure using a leash all the time makes a difference since I noticed that Babykins is focused on either the food in my hand or my shoulder/arm/hand placement and not the leash. When I do train with the leash, it's always loose and dangling.

Lastly, when I'm doing any training with Babykins in front of me, I try to always keep both hands centered in front of me, especially for dispensing treats so she stays centered in front of me. If you treat from one hand, they tend to come to front at an angle towards that hand.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

At the seminar I attended last week there was a presentation that noted how it takes 6000 trials of a behavior to fix it neurologically! That assumes 6000 correct repetitions, not 6000 approximations. If one is going to shape behaviors then you need way more than 6000 repeats as many of them will be sub par and not the desired execution. On that basis I generally recommend helping the dog to be correct rather than accepting approximations. This is where the collar and leash become important.

I have a question for you Mysticrealm. Do you plan to show in obedience outside? If not, then I wouldn't do much outdoor training, especially while teaching. If yes, then I still would probably wait until Asher understood the required behavior before working it outside since the level of distractions outside is light years different from any indoor event. I'm not quite sure what to suggest to use as a treat outside other than to make sure it is not green or brown depending on whether you are working on bare soil or grass.

ETA Skylar I guess we were writing at the same time. You raised a good point in the importance of keeping your hands centered in front of you when working with the dog at front. The platform is a way to help a dog find positions. I use platforms in lots of my position work with Javelin. As to leashes and collars I think they are important in helping to get the dog to reconnect when they are hitting a rough patch. As I said above you need thousands of correct executions of a behavior to fix it and a leash can help you to guide the dog to understand where heel is and the like. At this point I mostly train Lily off leash, but not always, even though all of her ring work is off leash. Javelin never trains off leash except for go outs and jumping which can't be done any other way.

I hope you haven't been offended by my comments. I really offer them in support of your success and based on my own experience and having worked with OTCh trainers fairly regularly in the past few years. Since it is free advice you should not be feeling like you have to respond point by point.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> At the seminar I attended last week there was a presentation that noted how it takes 6000 trials of a behavior to fix it neurologically! That assumes 6000 correct repetitions, not 6000 approximations. If one is going to shape behaviors then you need way more than 6000 repeats as many of them will be sub par and not the desired execution. On that basis I generally recommend helping the dog to be correct rather than accepting approximations. This is where the collar and leash become important.


The way you phrased it "That assumes 6000 correct repetitions, not 6000 approximations." is so helpful. I struggle myself with this, making sure I'm rewarding only the correct behavior and not the almost correct, or close to correct. I'm going to remember this next time I'm training to be more rigorous in looking for and rewarding only correct.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Right now we are only teaching the correct positioning in each behaviour (or correct as I understand it) and have not introduced hand signals at all since I am still luring the behaviour to ensure I'm hopefully getting the right positioning.
The platform will be used for heelwork positioning.
I don't like to use a dragging lead cause they get little corrections when they step on it.
I'll try to remember to feed together when working on positions in the front.

As far as the 'shaping' goes. I think the main idea was just to get them to have some drive for the board and to learn to put all 4 feet on. Now that he's gotten that (this morning he didn't have any issues with having all 4 feet up) I can start working more towards straightness. I've also been working on having his front feet right up to the edge.
We have obedience trials outdoors here at times so I definitely may end up showing outside at some point. My yard is pretty low distraction (6 ft solid wood fence, small, no trees or the like for squirrels and stuff to be in) and just gives me a different venue to train so he doesn't just get used to training in one location. He never got distracted, I don't think while we were training out there. Less distracting than in class for sure.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I consider any look away as a distraction reaction or a sign of stress. Stress isn't always bad, but it needs to be paid attention to and worked through.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Thanks I rewatched the video and I didn't remember the quick glances away.

Had our 2nd class yesterday. 
Worked on the platform. I didn't have time to go home between work and class so I didn't have the platform I made so had to borrow one. I really prefer the wood one that I borrowed. It was a bit higher than my platform and harder than my platform which made it much more easy for him to tell the difference between having all 4 feet on the platform or not (though he was almost 100% on this on my platform). And this platform was narrower than my platform so I didn't need to work on straightness at all. If he had all 4 ft up he was straight. We worked on the dog getting on the platform at any angle. So instead of just throwign the food behind the dog to have them come straight on from the front. we were supposed to start throwing it slightly to the sides and start moving so we're throwing it behind US (so in front of Asher) so he has to come straight from the wrong direction. Asher was one of the best at this. He almost never missed the platform with all 4 feet and on the super rare occasion he did I just waited and he fixed it with no help from me. I plan to make a wood one in the same size and to cut my current platform narrower.
We then worked on a small round platform with 2 feet up. Asher has done a fair amount on this type of platform so immediately went 2 up every time. We have also work on pivoting on it though we used to move our body around in agility and here they wanted us to just follow out hand while we stayed still. But he was great at that. Could go full 360 pretty much right away and rarely stepped off.
The instructor wanted to watch us do our positions, Asher did great and was one of the best at the sit or down to stand, which all comes from grooming table work haha. Now I need to start trying to fade the lure.
Worked on heeling. Found out my hand position was not right for heeling. need to bring it back more and out a bit. Asher did quite well with this too but I want to get higher value treats for that part as that's the part he may need a bit more incentive for.
We also worked on 'attention'. Just looking at you and giving you attention. This one is difficult for Asher. In showing, the attention is on your hand or bait to get that expression. I haven't really worked on needing that attention on my face. So I need to spend a lot of time on that.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

For the platform you might think about just gluing the one you've been using onto the top of a big brick of flower foam from a craft store. I used one like that for the early work I did with Javelin for the same reason that having it elevated more helped him to understand if he had a foot (or two) off it. With the foam it is still pretty light. If you want an attention game that works well for heads up, look up the five cookie game in my thread on Javelin's obedience prep (or I think you might also find it in Brenda Aloff material online). http://www.poodleforum.com/24-perfo...-hunting/205393-javelins-road-ring-ready.html


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Thanks, Smart idea with the flower foam. I had actually tried to find something like that but didn't know what to call it!
I will look up those attention games!

Just finished Asher's supper training and he did so well. His positioning is getting pretty easy. I hardly let him take any steps into sit and he still steps up into it. His sit to stand are good. His down is good. He sometimes gets confused between down to stand and down to sit but overall gets those great too. His focused heelwork was great, have my hand in a better position I think. Platform work was good. Forgot to practice our 2 up pivoting . I need to get a smaller round platform to work on that better.
His attention work was actually quite good today. Still just working on it stationary but it didn't take too much to get him looking. I think he's maybe still a hair unsure of it since he does 'sad puppy eyes' at me (aka. I can see the white at the bottom of his eye). Trying not to 'stare' at him.
I need to start starting to fade my lure, especially for the down since he's quite strong on that position already. I also need to work more on settle. He gets the motion to get into settle well, but I need to work on him just relaxing into it and working on leaving him in it longer. I'm bad with things like that. Things that aren't "active" training, if you can call it that.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Sounds like Asher is top if his class, but that doesn't surprise me! I wish we had the options for classes here that are available in larger centres. We have never used platforms of any kind in the classes here, I'd love to see a run through of your homework every week so we could follow along.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Thank you.
Here is video from this mornings training. I forgot his lead in the car, and did not have a chance to look up the attention games yet. I also haven't had the chance to but down his platform or get the foam to make it taller. (my house is for sale and I'm working 6 days a week most of the time right now and such so kinda busy)
Started to try to fade the lure but had some issues. For his down he was starting to go hind end first since his head was more up since I didn't bring my hand so low in the lure. I switched at the end to 'luring' with no treat in my hand so he learns not just to follow the treat but to pay attention to what I'm doing with my hand.





I'm tempted to start going to drop in rally classes. I really want to start competing in rally in June to try to get his rally novice title before we start competing in conformation again. I don't want to mess up his competition training but since his positioning is pretty good I can still lure it while practicing the signs. I'd probably teach him a 'loose leash' command so I can use that in rally until his focused heel is strong enough.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I did a rally novice title with Javelin in the spring of 2016 before his first birthday only for the chance (which worked out) to get him a title at PCA that year. Since it is very unlikely I will make it to PCA any time soon, unless they start rotating locations, it was my only chance to get him a title there. Had it not been for that wish on my part I would never have shown him at that point. He was too much a wild man and had poor focus. Since I want him to be an OTCh caliber dog for obedience and therefore can't allow him to goof around in rally either he will not do anything in a trial ring for at least another year (maybe more). Don't be in a rush to get into trials since it will be hard to undo things that go wrong that you can't correct in a trial as you can in class or a match. I've made way too many donations to clubs trying to get Lily to succeed in utility because I am always having to undo things that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't rushed her.

BTW I can't imagine working that many days while trying to move. I hate moving so much that I have to say I think a hurricane could level my neighborhood but leave our house alone and I would stay here in the middle of the wasteland. I hope your move goes as smoothly as is humanly possible.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Thanks. I definitely don't want to rush him. We have a slight advantage as he has been in a show ring since he was a wee pup and is very business like in the ring. But still with something new that requires a bit more brain power than conformation there's more likelihood for mistakes. I will definitely see how he is doing before I enter him. I plan to try a rally drop in class next week just to see how that would go with what we have done yet. If I don't like what's happening (if he's losing positioning at all) then I will stop those until we're further along with his training. And of course in rally class I will be working on correct positions not just going through the signs.

Training has been going fairly well. Haven't been able to work on his pivots too much cause my platform is just not working well and the store I went to did not have the tub size I was looking for. His platforms are pretty good but have not gotten that extra padding for it yet so the odd time he takes an extra second to get that hind foot up. He's also had the odd moment of trying to sit on the platform instead of stand, but he rights himself when he doesn't get rewarded for it.
I had a few non lured downs that had good form this morning, but this evening he had a couple that were slightly bum first so I went back to luring more. I try to lure the sit less but that hand position I guess is too close to my conformation stand hand position. so still working on not having treats every time. 
I took him to the vet to get weighed yesterday because I felt like he was losing weight on his new food even though I was feeding more than was recommended for a 63 pound dog (and Asher was weighing 52.7). and I was right, he weighed 49.8 pounds. So I have upped his food and started to switch back to his old food and I did notice a little less drive for some things in my training session this evening. I may feed him a touch less tomorrow morning so he's not 'too full' for our class tomorrow evening and I'll bring some more high value treats than just his food.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It sounds like you are doing a good job on supporting Asher to make his own corrections balanced against helping him when he is clearly off the mark. That is wonderful. When it clicks you will feel it in how he sets up and how he moves with you. Just in the last few weeks I have hit a new level with Javelin in his straight line heeling and feel that is good enough to start turns. His left turn seems to be coming along better than the right turn. So don't be surprised if some things feel lopsided along the way. I should have some Javelin heeling videos up within the next few days. I will put links to them in my Javelin's Road to Ring Ready thread, so if you are subscribed to it you will know when they are up if you want to check them out.

I'm sorry you are having food and weight management issues. I am having a bit of a challenge with Javvy here too. Initially when I switched to home cooked I seem to have miscalculated his portion and he lost about 4 1/2 pounds. I am having to go really slowly trying to get his to put it back on (which he needs to) because if I feed him too much he gets the runs. I hope you get your food situation figured out easily.

I think a drop in rally class could be a great way to play some good position and attention games.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Thank you. I will look out for those videos.
Asher was pretty good today. Started off with heel which was good cause all the dogs had energy where as the last 2 classes we did it at the end and the dogs were a bit tired sometimes. Asher was fantastic in his heels. Head up staying right where he should. The trainer had me have multiple pieces of treats in my hand so he wasn't getting his treat then being distracted and putting his head down and looking around before our next heel. with multiple treats he could get one then move right into the next heel to keep his head up.
Then we did some 'tricks'. We started with targeting the hand which most dogs had a bit. Asher didn't have too much of a target the hand as for agility we had a 'plate' to target but he caught on pretty quick. We also targeted above the head rather than towards the ground like with agility. We want them to lift off their front feet on the hand targeting. I started Asher on it after getting the hand targeting a bit. he did it once lifting off the ground but then got confused thinking that I wanted him to jump up on me or on the wall so we'll keep working on that.
Then we did some spinning left and right which Asher has only done a very very very little bit of but he picked it up quick, touched a hair on back up.
Platform work we added sit on the platform. Asher was really confused about how to get his back legs to fit on the platform in a sit, but after I guided him a couple times he was pretty good. We couldn't do the proper 'front' sits yet like some of the other people but he was getting it better and better each time.
We then did pivoting on our round platform. He's pretty quick at those pivots for his age adn how small the platform is. Working on making my hand cue less dramatic. Then we worked on getting them to follow us, so we'd be standing in 'front' position and we would take a step to the side and want for them to start turning and centering themselves to us. Asher was fairly good for that.

I think that was all that we did today. Asher was pretty willing to work, which I was a bit worried about with his food increase. I fed a hair less this morning but not by much so I thought he might be full enough to not be as energetic to work but he did really well that way.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That heads up work is going to be something you are very happy to have done. Having more than one treat and teaching them to take the reward and eat it while keeping the eye contact makes a tremendous difference. That is the purpose of the five cookie game that I teach to all of my beginners and that Lily and Javelin both know very well.

The class you are going to sounds great and the trainer sounds like a gem. Stick with that person. I like that it sounds as if she is very flexible in adjusting what each dog is doing to help them to be successful for where they are at in the process.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Thanks. Ya I've been pretty happy with the classes, though I don't KNOW enough about competition obedience to say 'yes these guys are doing it right' so it's good to hear that you think that they're doing things pretty well. I forgot to look up those attention games so I will try to remember to do that this weekend.

Training this evening was.... meh.
I really wish I had a longer area to heel. I really only have my living room and then I have to stop and turn around and come back that little way. I can get him to look up and get 4-5 head up trotting steps, but the turn is too tight to get him to keep looking up. My basement is the next longest point in my house, but those steep curving wood stairs I don't love to traverse with him twice a day especially since he's still young and shouldn't do too many stairs and he already does the stairs to get to my second story.
The hand targeting was a pain today. I tried to have him more in heel position when doing it and he'll do it a couple times then just wander off, sometimes coming back right away like 'whoops sorry', and other times taking a few times to call him back. I had to stop for a couple mins to calm down so I didn't get too frustrated. Went back and did 2 easy ones and moved on. He's so good at nose targeting on the 'plates' at agility so it's weird it's not transitioning well, but agility he targets down, and obedience he targets up so maybe that's the biggest difference.
Did his spins (counter clockwise) and twists (clockwise). We're supposed to work to just voice cue. He's not there yet but he's picked them up really quick, I remember we did a small amount of work with this in agility foundations (we were working on 'switches' but he wasn't getting it so we worked on spins). He used to really dislike the hand going over his head, and had no idea what I was trying to do, but now he picked it up quick. Getting pretty small hand cues already.
Did a few sits/downs/stands.
Then did platform and some sits. I need to raise his platform for that cause he'll allow a leg to fall off the platform in the sit and not mind. Got it a few times and started to be able to feed him in sorta front position with his head up (he gets confused when I try to do that and stands up). I started with stepping into front and trying to get the sit from there (instead of trying to get the sit a bit more off to the side which was how I have been working the sits so I can see if he's stepping up into it) then being able to feed in that same position, then trying to give a few treats from there before releasing.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I wouldn't worry that you don't have a long open area in your home. It is more important to have him understand that heads up is the thing to do before throwing turns and the like into the mix. I have only recently started to really work on turns with Javelin, now that he can do a straight line the length of a ring with his head up the whole way. slow and steady will win that race.

If you are at a show where there is also obedience going on and your ring schedule permits go watch the dogs that are working on UDX and OTCh titles. You will know who they are by looking up the numbers of the open B and utility B dogs in the catalog and then looking to see what titles they've already finished. If you can watch teams that already have a UDX and maybe OM1 or 2 titles you will see great work.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

so I had an open house today and my realtor moved 2 of my kitchen chairs to the basement and not I have about 10 steps across my house instead of 5 so that was actually really helpful. He wasn't terribly engaged for it though. I think I need a higher value treat for it. Had some good moments but with a higher value treat I think we'd have more.

Our hand targeting was a bit better today. I didn't put him in heel position I just did hand touches wherever he was standing. He likes it when my hand is in easy reach, he doesn't like it if he has to lift his front feet off the ground. So i'm going to keep it in easy reach for now until he has the drive for it before I move it higher. I'm also thinking I'll try to start rewarding him from that hand. Now I have been targeting my left hand then feeding in the right since that's the one that has the food. But I'm thinking I'll target, then switch my food to my left hand and feed it in the same 'targeting' position so he gets rewarded there.

position stuff was pretty good. Spins and twists were good, he offered one on his own for the first time.
platform work was pretty good. my last sit on the platform was really good and he held it for a few treats with his head up without letting a leg slip off or thinking I was asking him to stand.
I really need to get him a 2 up platform, it sucks not practicing that. Maybe I'll see if we can go to a different tack store tomorrow and if they don't have it I'll order one online 

At my show in January we were benched next to the obedience ring so got to see a bit of it. There was a full tailed rottweiler that was just insane.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

I started today's breakfast and supper training with hot dog pieces for heel and targeting. That definitely got him more engaged with his heel work. A bit better for targeting too, but he still gets confused if the target is slightly out of reach. He either jumps up on me or disengages. I get it within reach most of the time but when he was doing that quite well I tried raising it up a hair. I did get one good one right at the end of our supper session that I really reinforced him for.
He's getting better with his platform sits. For supper when he'd let a foot slip off I'd wait a few seconds and he would manage to fix it and got better at holding the position and taking treats up on my sternum (so he's close and looking up in front position).
Spins and twists pretty good, most of the time I can do just a small hand gesture.
For position I started to have him do them in heel position. It actually went really well and it was neat to see him doing them in heel position looking like an obedience dog.
Didn't get the 2 up platform today, will try to pick it up on my way home tomorrow


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Didn't get to train this morning, but video'd tonight's session. I know I'm awful about not having a leash!! I keep forgetting it in my car! Tomorrow, tomorrow I will try to bring it in. I see some things I need to work on but overall he's made pretty good progress since his first class. No class this week. Forgot to work on his 'going through the legs' and did not get his platform again. I don't have work on wednesday so hopefully can get it then. Signed up for rally tomorrow.


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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Looking good there Mysticrealm! His chin up looks great and he's very eager to learn! I just started taking an intermediate class myself so it is a great reminder to keep up with daily training. 

I know it is a minute point but do you plan on putting different cue for the spins going different directions? I am planning to do that for Sammy. Clockwise is spin and counter clock wise is... (still thinking of a good cue). Just a bit more mental work for the pup. 

I really need to make a platform for Sammy. Yours look awesome - though you are right, a little more height might be beneficial for Asher. Sammy stands, sit, and down lazy ( often rolling to his side right away) so it will be a great tool to challenge his positions. 

Loved your video! Thanks for filming and posting!!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Mysticrealm I like the heads up attention on the move, but here are a couple of things to be careful with. Start to work on keeping his head up when you are turning him around to go back the other way. If you let him keep looking down when he turns he will always look away on turns and those are really bad places to have a disconnect. Also look at his back end in your video. In a straight line he should not have his back end out. He is side winding to try to get at the lure. If you keep the lure a bit higher (since he is tall) and lined up with the side seams of your clothes he will probably straighten himself out. If you can at your class you can work along the ring gate to keep his back end in line. Sammy most people I know who have both clockwise and anticlockwise spins call them different things such as spin and twist.


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## thekarens (Apr 16, 2017)

lily cd re said:


> Mysticrealm I like the heads up attention on the move, but here are a couple of things to be careful with. Start to work on keeping his head up when you are turning him around to go back the other way. If you let him keep looking down when he turns he will always look away on turns and those are really bad places to have a disconnect. Also look at his back end in your video. In a straight line he should not have his back end out. He is side winding to try to get at the lure. If you keep the lure a bit higher (since he is tall) and lined up with the side seams of your clothes he will probably straighten himself out. If you can at your class you can work along the ring gate to keep his back end in line. Sammy most people I know who have both clockwise and anticlockwise spins call them different things such as spin and twist.




OT: I had to check to see if you were in the UK or Australia when you said "anti clockwise". [emoji5]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

thekarens said:


> OT: I had to check to see if you were in the UK or Australia when you said "anti clockwise". [emoji5]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oops! Well English is a global language. I guess I've taken on idioms of UK PF members in some things.


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## rj16 (Jan 30, 2017)

I hope you keep posting these, Mysticrealm. It's really interesting to watch and follow!


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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> Sammy most people I know who have both clockwise and anticlockwise spins call them different things such as spin and twist.


Oh I like "twist"! Thanks for your help!


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Is there a reason you shouldn't use right and left instead of something else? That's what I use, not my right and left when facing the dog, the direction THEY are turning. I actually use to use spin when Abbey was very young but at a class I took we were told to use right/left, hope that wasn't wrong.


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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Caddy said:


> Is there a reason you shouldn't use right and left instead of something else? That's what I use, not my right and left when facing the dog, the direction THEY are turning. I actually use to use spin when Abbey was very young but at a class I took we were told to use right/left, hope that wasn't wrong.


I really don't think there is a right and a wrong on naming a cue. If right and left work for you, awesome! . I often have different verbal/hand signals than what is being taught at class - like "look" for "watch". Since I used "look" for "watch", I say "see that?" for "look at that" game  As long as your girls know what you mean, I don't see any problems. But again, it may be an issue in an obedience ring, and maybe someone can help me there.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You could say apple, peach, pear if you want or black white, pink. They don't have the concept of sit as a concept. They associate the sound of a word with the action they have been conditioned to correlate with that sound. While most people I know use bar for the utility bar jump and over or hup for the high jump I also know someone who tells his dog "this one" and "that one." 

The same is true for signals. As long as your signals are loaded to have a clear association to an action it doesn't really matter what the signal is. My only real preferences is that orders are given with one syllable words that usually have consonant endings and that names have two (and generally end with a vowel sound). The name then is a cue for attending to what I tell you next.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> Mysticrealm I like the heads up attention on the move, but here are a couple of things to be careful with. Start to work on keeping his head up when you are turning him around to go back the other way. If you let him keep looking down when he turns he will always look away on turns and those are really bad places to have a disconnect. Also look at his back end in your video. In a straight line he should not have his back end out. He is side winding to try to get at the lure. If you keep the lure a bit higher (since he is tall) and lined up with the side seams of your clothes he will probably straighten himself out. If you can at your class you can work along the ring gate to keep his back end in line. Sammy most people I know who have both clockwise and anticlockwise spins call them different things such as spin and twist.


The heads up thing was a problem I wrote about earlier in the thread here. I will keep trying to work on keeping his head up through the tight turns.


Mysticrealm said:


> I really wish I had a longer area to heel. I really only have my living room and then I have to stop and turn around and come back that little way. I can get him to look up and get 4-5 head up trotting steps, but the turn is too tight to get him to keep looking up. My basement is the next longest point in my house, but those steep curving wood stairs I don't love to traverse with him twice a day especially since he's still young and shouldn't do too many stairs and he already does the stairs to get to my second story.


I will try to get my hand higher and further back, though I'm not sure if my arm will bend any more than it is!

Yes we use spin and twist.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Asher does rally! Overall he did well and I liked it. I was a little unsure of what I should do in between obstacles more so than the obstacles themselves (which need work but we could halfway pull them off) but his focused heel isn't there yet enough so I don't think I should do it at rally yet with turns and such, but I don't know if I'm teaching him heeling with his head down, rather than just trying to be on a loose leash paying attention. Hmm...


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Breakfast session. Managed to keep his head up a bit more in the turns on our heeling and I think he was a bit straighter. I remembered to do the through the legs stuff and that went fine. I can't remember how the rest of it went haha

Supper session. My hot dogs seemed to be getting a film on them despite being well before best before date so I had had it in the freezer so I didn't use hot dogs and OMG there was no heads up heeling happening. I think he's also finally getting over me accidentally 'starving' him on that old food so he isn't scarfing every last bite of his meals so not feeling as hungry. But he worked ok for his positioning. Platform work was ok, not great. But his target work was actually pretty good. He lifted up off his front feet while not jumping up on me, and did it a couple times in heel position and had some enthusiasm. Spins are mostly good, but there was a ball of his hair on the carpet that he kept thinking could be a treat (didn't realize that was what was happening till the end) so he would sometimes get distracted, but otherwise he likes doing the spins so is fairly enthusiastic about them.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Yesterday evening's session was a bit frustrating. He decided for some reason to shut down during sits on the platform.

Didn't have time to do a morning session today.
Supper session was pretty good. I actually went to the tack store to get a 2 up platform but they didn't have but I found a large tupperware container I had and it actually was a pretty decent platform. So did spins and twists on there and some 'fronts'. Did regular spins twists on the ground, did touches which are getting better and better. Did position work and through the leg stuff. Our platform work was pretty good compared to yesterday. 
I didn't practice heads up 'heel work' because I didn't have hot dogs thawed. And didn't practice attention work which I really need to do more of


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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

How is your house sale going? You are a trooper for selling your house and training and keeping a full time job! Good job! 

In what ways did Asher shut down during sits on the platform? Was he confused? He's attentive to you, so I'm curious why he had shut down.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Sammy the spoo said:


> *How is your house sale going? You are a trooper for selling your house and training and keeping a full time job! Good job! *
> 
> In what ways did Asher shut down during sits on the platform? Was he confused? He's attentive to you, so I'm curious why he had shut down.


As I said above somewhere I have always hated moving. I think it is pretty amazing that she is keeping everything going as well as she is. I would have thrown in the towel on dog training a long time ago if I was moving.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Thanks guys. Sorry for slacking in posting. House sale is going ok. A fair number of showings but no offers yet.
As far as shutting down, he just stops really trying anything, wants to walk away at times, try things really slow and unenthusiastically.

Training overall is going well. I'm still having some trouble fading the lure. I can get it without treats in my hand but I still need to use my hand to get the position.
Apparently I was supposed to be working on all the positions on the platform instead of just sit so we were a bit behind that on last class.
We also worked on (humans) standing in heel position on the platform. Working on standin and sitting in heel position. I'm still having issues with Asher getting straight on the platform. Usually his left hind foot is off. They have been getting us to direct the head with the treat to turn his body to get straight on the platform. It doesn't seem to be clicking so today I put the platform next to a wall so he had to come onto it straight. I still have NOT raised his platform and I think that would help to so I will try to do that and keep him against the wall for a bit and slowly inch the platform out.
He definitely is a touch less excited for his food as reward now that I've stopped accidentally starving him haha. Maybe I need to mix in some treats with it so he gets something extra yummy sometimes. He still willing to work for it but not with as much enthusiasm.

Now for the weirdness. I am at a dog show this weekend showing a baby puppy for my breeder and my breeder tells me she's heard a rumor that I'm being 'rough' on Asher in my obedience training? I don't know if it's someone in my obedience class (my breeder doesn't do obedience so it would have to be a confo person taking my obedience class) or someone on facebook as I have posted some of my obedience training videos there (my breeder is not on facebook). I don't know what they are feeling I'm doing is rough? The training is all positive. Ya, sometimes I feel frustrated but I feel I've been pretty good about making myself step away when I've been feeling that way. Grr.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Raising the platform should help with getting Asher to pick up that left hind foot. Javelin will hang that same foot off if I use his low platform way more often than if I use the higher one with the flower foam.

Don't be in a rush to get rid of your food lures for getting your positions. I still usually have food in my hand for Javelin for heeling and position practice. It is fine to have it, but be more discriminating in giving it. The eventual goal is to move the food higher and higher until you can hold it in your mouth instead of your hand.

As to being "rough" I don't see that you've done anything I would consider rough handling in any of the videos I've watched. I would show them to your breeder and help her to understand what you are doing since she isn't familiar with performance obedience.


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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Hello and thanks for the update! I didn't find you being rough with Asher. So I'm really not sure how that came about. Keep up the great work and I look forward to your next update!


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Sounds like your training is coming along great, try the turkey bites (small hotdog type) for training, my girls live them. I can't imagine anyone would think you are rough with Asher's training, and quite frankly I'd be a little pissed if someone said that about me. Sometimes I'm too frustrated for training and recognize it quickly and quit, anyone watching might call me bitchy but definitely not rough. Did you ask about the source of the gossip, you definitely have a right to know who is spreading such rumours.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Thanks guys. I'm still not sure who said that I was being rough and not sure how they drew that conclusion from either the videos or from the class. I talked to my obedience instructor at the dog show on the weekend and she said she did not think at all I was being rough with Asher.
Last class we worked on transfering our treats from our hand to a chopstick for heeling. Starting to work on 'finishing'. Working on recalls to fronts.
Sorry my video is sideway, my phone is... old and glitchy


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Had a pretty good class with Asher today. He was HYPER because the weather hasn't been nice the last couple days so no runs.
Did some work on the 2 up platform. Starting to work them into heel position. He's good about spinning into place with a lure so will work on fading that.
Did a lot of heel work, incorporating in the chopstick and putting it into a new position so the dog is seeing the person in more proper heel position rather than having our left hand way up and back to get that right position of the dog. Asher initially either didn't understand that it was the same idea as heeling with my hand back, or he was trying to jump up to grab the treat. The trainer had me hold on to his collar to prevent jumping up so I could have the treat closer without him being able to grab it. After just a couple times of that I was able to let go of the collar and get some good steps in.
Did some position work with lots of energy in our rewarding.
The one day I made it home between work and class and remembered my platform and we didn't use it haha.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I find that when Javelin is jumping up at me while we are working on heeling it is because he doesn't like my pace (thinks I am too slow). As I am getting the right stride length and pace for him that jumping is extinguishing itself. Lily will go at whatever pace I go and she is smaller than Javelin so she has always been a decent heeler for me (but not as great as he will be eventually). 

How is moving going?


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

So first off, my house is conditionally sold. For less than I had hoped but it is what it is.
Secondly, Asher did amazing today. I didn't train in the morning but in the evening we worked on 2 up and both lining himself up in front position and in heel position. He was a bit distracted when working on fronts but when he was paying attention he was getting it fairly well. Heel position still requires a lot of luring but he usually does take a couple steps in the right direction so he's starting to get the concept, but I could tell by him popping off the platform a few times that he also wasn't sure of the concept.
He's too excited for his spins and twists and once I ask for one he tends to spin and twist 2-4 times and sometimes jump on me. I think maybe I should for now just add in one spin or twist while working on something else so he doesn't think he gets to do a million of them.
But the part that really made me happy today was him starting to really get his position work with very little to none luring. Sits are pretty good on vocal and now adding in my hand cue. His sits stay pretty correct in execution. His stands and downs aren't quite as good. He still wants to touch my hand in the stands so if I don't have my hand up to his nose he thinks about stepping forward to it, so we'll keep working on that. His downs he'll often go butt first, so with that I'm alternating a bit between him doing the command verbal/hand cue with slight bum first, and doing more luring for correct downs and more highly rewarding the correct down.
But I was just really happy with how he worked in his position work today.


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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Congratulations on the sale of your house (albeit conditional)! What a relief! Hopefully things go smoothly after this now. 

I can just imagine the multiple spins and twists. Lol "wheee! look at me Mom!!!". Sounds like things are progressing well! Way to go Asher!


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## West U (Jul 30, 2014)

Hats off to you. Asher really has all the pieces and it looks like you are working it in all the right ways. He is lovely, has a willingness to please, and you guys seem to be a great team.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Thank you!
My house is officially sold, and I have conditionally bought. Move in day would be around middle of july.

Here is an updated video from sunday. I need to shorten my 2 up platform stuff a bit as he starts to 'fall off' it if we stay working on that too long. And I need to get something different to use as a platform as the container I'm using has a pretty decent 'ridge' around it that I'm sure isn't too comfy to stand on.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I want to address the comment about you being "rough"in your training. We got used to hearing those comments out at the dog yard. Never against the same person, never justified. One example was that we would be working with turning a Rottweiler away from the direction he was staring, the minute he started staring. For starters, a lay person does not recognize "staring". So there version of the scenario would be that the Rottweiler was approaching them and was rudely turned away(not jerked) and not allowed to greet their dog. They might even add in that the dog's tail was wagging. Well, we all now that the tail can wag for many reasons, not all friendly. In the case of a Rottweiler that is staring, a tail wagging is not a good sign. So, there you have one example of how misinterpretations can occur. I bet that is what started your rumor; a lay person who was not at all familiar with dog behavior, or training... thinking they saw something "rough". Too bad they didn't have the courage to approach you and ask for an explanation, rather than starting a rumor. I know it has caused you worry; it should not. For all you know, it could have been someone from PETA who doesn't think dogs should be on leashes at all. Be kind to yourself during these stressful days of selling your home and moving.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Been a long time since I posted a video. I didn't train for a few weeks before this video so we are a bit rusty. My footwork is awful and the room is really small. Once my basement is more cleaned out it offers a bit more space but for right now it's not workable.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Video'd another training session today. I made a few mistakes (ok, an endless list of mistakes), and Asher wasn't feeling it when we started (he usually really likes to practice 'get ready's'). Don't mind my 'get it, get it, get it'. That's something I'm trying to work on with myself. I hate when it takes Asher 75 mins to find the treat (kibble) I tossed for him, but that's partially (mostly) due to his hair. When he puts his head down to search for treats it falls a bit over his eyes. I need to learn to chill, but especially when I'm doing something with a lot of treat tosses it can take SOOO long to do just a couple reps, and that takes away from him connecting things. I try to make the tosses easy for him and at home is better than at training cause the floor is a darkish blue at class and so treats are much harder to see!


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## janebeebee (Sep 13, 2017)

*too rough?*

You and I butted heads once, but I have to say I can't imagine how anyone could think that you're too rough with Asher. You always sound so positive and enthusiastic with him and you make training look like fun. I'm glad you have videos you can show your breeder (as Catherine suggested) Looks like you're doing a fantastic job!


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Thank you. I can't say I never get frustrated, but I try hard to keep positive and make training fun for Asher.


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