# short-legged Minis



## muffin

Hi, I know what you mean about the short legged minis, I have one (oh, how I dream of those long, long legs) and they sure do look weird haha! He's a rescue so I have no idea where he came from originally. 

There is a "4th size" of poodle called a Moyen, I believe, but I have heard they are rare to come by in the states. A true moyen, at least; there are breeders who breed large minis though. I'm sure some of the other members will be by to give you a better explanation and refer you to some breeders.


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## mom24doggies

maroon said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've recently been browsing around to get a feel for a (possible) future mini poodle for me and my family and I'm just wondering, whats up with the minis with the short-legs/long-bodies? Are these BYB dogs? Sometimes I see beautiful full-bodied square shaped minis around and they look amazing (look exactly like small standards) but these are few and far between. They also tend to be bigger, I would guess somewhere around 14"-16". I would ideally want one of those minis, but just wondering, are these a 4th size or just well-bred minis?
> 
> -Thanks.


 Those are well bred minis. They should be square, with nice long, elegant legs, just like a standard. The short, squatty poodles you see, while cute, are usually from puppy mills or byb. And they are certainly not correct! If a breeder is producing that kind of poodle, I would run away fast.


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## Rowan

maroon said:


> ...
> I've recently been browsing around to get a feel for a (possible) future mini poodle for me and my family and I'm just wondering, whats up with the minis with the short-legs/long-bodies? Are these BYB dogs? *Sometimes I see beautiful full-bodied square shaped minis around and they look amazing (look exactly like small standards) but these are few and far between. *They also tend to be bigger, I would guess somewhere around 14"-16". I would ideally want one of those minis, but just wondering, are these a 4th size or just well-bred minis?
> 
> -Thanks.


The breed _standard_ is the same for all three varieties. A poodle is a poodle is a poodle. They're really not few and far between--I have three in my house, and yes they're supposed to be up to 15" at the shoulder but over 10".  
American Kennel Club - Poodle


> *The Standard for the Poodle (Toy variety) is the same as for the Standard and Miniature varieties except as regards heights*.





> *The Miniature Poodle is 15 inches or under at the highest point of the shoulders, with a minimum height in excess of 10 inches.* Any Poodle which is over 15 inches or is 10 inches or less at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as a Miniature Poodle.


Here are a few pictures of MPOOs (mine). The black one, Alex, is actually oversized at 17.5" but Merlin (silver) and Pippin (sable) are within the required range.

For more examples, visit: Cabryn Champions Page
(Merlin is out of Cabryn.) There are quite a few good examples on this forum--Beau (*Lleullman*), Chagall (*Chagall's Mom*), Sunny (*liljaker*), *Mom24Doggie's *boy in her Sig (previous post), Kai (*Spoowhisperer*), Riley (*Riley's Mommy*), *Minipoodlelover's *girl, to name but a few.


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## liljaker

There are lots of well-bred minis on the PF, as Rowan mentioned. Sunny the cream in my signature is 14 3/4" and 19 pounds -- he is breed standard (up to 15"). Basically, the height should equal the length (from base of neck to base of tail, I believe) which gives you the "breed standard" for the poodle, or height = length, i.e., the long legs. Obviously, poodles of all leg lengths will love you just the same IMO, but if you are looking for breed standard that should not be hard to find.


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## liljaker

*Mini Poodle - Size*

Here is another pic or 2 which shows you a bit more from the side...


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## lavillerose

You do see a lot of toys and minis with short legs/long bodies. They are NOT from any reputable breeder. The poodle breed standard has never, in any country, called for a poodle to be anything other than squarely built. The structure is key to the work they are/were expected to do, retrieve from water. You'll find that all breeds that are expected to swim are built square, or very nearly so. Longer legs equals more forward drive in the water.

However, these short-legged poodles may have been a popular pet trend at one point, much like we are currently seeing "bear faced" poodles with (incorrect) short, boxy faces that don't look right in anything but a teddybear trim. Which is stupid, since the teddy trim is accomplished with hair, not structure. Unfortunately, once a trend is bred for en masse, it can be difficult for it to go away, particularly when BYB and mills continue to breed dogs that are built this way.


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## Chagall's mom

If you let us know where you're located, we can probably suggest some reputable miniature poodle breeders and also rescue groups for you to consider. I have an oversized mini, about 17.75," and believe me, he's got _legs!!_ A well-bred poodle of_ any_ variety is a _beautiful_ thing!


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## Ladywolfe

My beloved little toy poodle, Mina, is way out of the standard. She is a sweet little girl, but she is what I had always thought was a result of very poor breeding aimed at keeping her under the 10" limit for toys. She is exactly at the 10"; bu she has a roach back, long body, and short legs. I often refer to her as the "deformed poodle"...... but, believe me, it is said lovingly. She was, more or less, a rescue from a really bad place. She came with fleas so bad she had sores on her body. I used to keep her in a non-existent cut created just for her, to hide a lot of those problems. Now, I rather just gave up and cut her all down short. I have adjusted to her build, but she sure is silly looking to other people, I bet.

So, I always thought that the short legs were a result of bad attempts at keeping the poodles short. My poor Mina, at 10" tall, has a body that would indicate she probably ought to have legs that would make her about 15" tall.


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## minipoodlelover

I've noticed a lot of miniature poodle pet breeders, whose breeding dogs tend to show champions a few generations back in the pedigree, seem to aim for large/oversized toys and small minis. I'm guessing these are popular sizes, but I think that comformationally correct square body shape frequently does get sacrficed.

I've also seen many poodles with shorter muzzles and faces left unshaved in order to create that teddy bear look.

Angie was my first poodle from a reputable breeder, and I highly recommend this route to anybody looking to obtain a poodle unless they rescue! The differences between a well-bred poodle and a BYB breeder poodle are so great, that the staff at my local pet store didn't even recognize Angie as a poodle. They kept saying to me, "so that's what a poodle really looks like!" 

Temperament also comes into play, as well as health testing. Not to say you can't get a temperamentally sound and healthy poodle from a BYB, but I believe the odds increase when you deal with a person who's completely committed to the breed and its standards.

Re: height - I just measured Angie and she is now 14 1/2" at the shoulder


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## maroon

Wow I never knew! Coming to think of it, NONE of the minis in my area that I've seen atleast (NJ/NYC) look anything like the true breed standards. Thanks for the pictures, they really helped and you guys have some AMAZING LOOKING dogs I must say!

Can anyone recommend a few breeders in the Northeastern Region? I'm ideally looking for an oversized mini (14"-16") with a calm disposition.


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## lavillerose

Reputable breeders tend to aim for the higher end of the required size. As a small breed, toys are healthiest and least fragile when they are in in the 8 - 10 inch range. Most mini breeders don't want dogs under 13 inches as they become too delicate and toy-like, and a mini is expected to have more substance to them. This is why we see so many oversized toys and minis that come from good breeders, because when you aim high, you're inevitably going to get some that get a little too big. Which is fine for pets! It's much better than aiming for "teacups", which makes any reputable breeder wrinkle their noses. We don't want tiny, fragile poodles in the gene pool!

I think the short legs may come in part through genetic flukes, and in part through breeding dogs that are quite mismatched in size. I have seen short leg lengths when crossing any large breed dog with a miniature one, like a golden with a mini poodle. You don't necessarily get a "miniature doodle" out of that cross. You might get a doodle that has a the body of a big dog with disproportionately short legs. I groom one. She's nearly 50 pounds, and maybe 16 inches tall. The breeder told the owner she wouldn't grow over 25lbs. :der: So I wonder if the same thing may happen if you breed a large mini to quite a small toy.

I've even seen occasional poodles that are not just slightly too short in the legs, but it's most definitely a form of dwarfism, with oddly shaped leg bones like in dachshunds. (I've even suspected the occasional dachshund outcross, if shortie poodles really were a trendy thing when they first showed up decades ago).


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## mom24doggies

liljaker said:


> There are lots of well-bred minis on the PF, as Rowan mentioned. Sunny the cream in my signature is 14 3/4" and 19 pounds -- he is breed standard (up to 15"). Basically, the height should equal the length *(from base of neck to base of tail, I believe)* which gives you the "breed standard" for the poodle, or height = length, i.e., the long legs. Obviously, poodles of all leg lengths will love you just the same IMO, but if you are looking for breed standard that should not be hard to find.


Bolded mine. 

Actually, poodles are measured from the pin bone to breast bone, and that measurement should be equal to the measurement from the floor to the whithers. Some breeds (such as the scottie) _are_ measured from the neck to the tail though. Just not the poodle.


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## qtpoodle

My poodle is 13 inches tall. She seems proportionate enough when I look at her, but I haven't measured her length to be sure. She has long legs and reminds me of a prancing pony. She was a rescue and was given up by a breeder along with some other dogs. I'm sure she's far from standard, but she looks really graceful and pretty. She isn't a squat poodle by any means.


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## 3dogs

On an interesting note I was wondering if some of the "short leggedness" comes from the once popular work of "Truffle hunting". I had read that the Mini Poodles were really favored at one time because they were more gentle when digging for the Truffles that less damage was done. Then at one point the small Poodles were breed with some type of Terrier (which plenty have short legs). So maybe back when the Poodle was used for a "Purpose" there was some favoritism towards the shorter legs, just like ground Terriers than a longer legged one. Just theory of course but would be interesting to see the Poodle Truffle dogs & their leg lengths compared to the "standard" of longer legs.
Of course that is not to say that many a BYB & PM just breed for the almighty $$$$ so the legs, coat, temper & health are chucked out the window.


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## 3dogs

I was reading about the "Truffle Dog" & it's heritage & looks never played an importance ONLY the ability to find Truffles. In 1871 it was referred to as "nothing more or less than a bad small sized Poodle". In the 1880's it was described as "a poodle with a dash of terrier". Anyway, It is highly valued & these dogs must find Truffles that lie 12 inches (30) cm below the surface. Truffles fetch several thousand pounds per kilo. It does say that the Poodle heritage seems to be a dominant characteristic in this breed. Found this info out of Desmond Morris DOGS, The Ulimate Dictionary of Over 1,000 Dog Breeds (mixed too).


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## fjm

I remember back when I was a child and small poodles were extremely fashionable you saw a lot of very odd shaped dogs sold as poodles. I suspect a lot of small fluffy dogs contributed their genes at the time, remembering how they looked, plus a dose of chondrodysplasia at times. In the UK you see far fewer poodles in recent years, but they are much better proportioned. The short legged dogs always seemed to have badly set ears, shorter muzzles and weepy eyes, or that is my recollection of them!


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## liljaker

How true about the poodles in Europe. as a Francophile, I visited Paris every year, for about 10 years (with the exception of the last couple of years dealing with Jake); anyway, I actually went to a few pet stores along the Seine and saw dogs everywhere, offleash of course, and was always looking for the poodles. The ones I did see seemed not breed standard at all (not sure what I expected), but again since it was in the City, the dogs I saw with their owners walking through the Tuilleries or along Saint Germaine Boulevard, were smaller, squatter and rarely nicely groomed. I always thought it odd -- perhaps out the countryside, and in other areas it may be different? I think if I saw a poodle like Sunny prancing along the boulevard, it would definitely appeared odd.


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## fjm

Yes, the Parisian poodles were actually the worst - a French friend of ours had one of Popsy's pups, and he was just about the only poodle-shaped poodle under 20 inches I remember seeing in Paris!


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## sandooch

I guess I got lucky with Gigi. She is a BYB dog, but she has the beautiful long legs and torso of most of the miniture pictures posted here. I've never even measured from her base of tail to the base of her neck, but I had to do that right now just to satisfy my curiosity. She is 14 3/4" in height and 15" from tail to neck. I guess she is just about right then.

Here are her pics from the side:


































I love her tiny, girlish waist! ♥


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## liljaker

The movie Gigi comes to mind, with Maurice Chevalier, set it Paris..... (sorry, I love Paris).....and she fits the bill to a t! 

Sunny has always been fond of her!

P.S. Trying to keep Sunny's nice tuck, too, which he had when he arrived. I fear, however, the 10 hour days in the house when I am at work are his enemy for that. Maybe I need to train him on the treadmill like Fleur!!!


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## minipoodlelover

Gigi is always beautiful and she looks very huggable and happy


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## 3dogs

I have to post a before picture of a new client that I do. In the picture I had done him 1 other time & he was in for his grooming but I only took before photos since he was playing with my Poodle & his poodle friend. Anyway, why is it that the shortest, smallest poodle owners always have the Miami on their dogs. Just makes them look a whole lot shorter legged. Rambo is 8 1/2" tall but he has solid bone not that frail I am going to snap in 2 with lots of toy poodles. He may be put together wrong but I always have a great laugh when he is about. Waht is up with that Button tail???? Vets???


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## liljaker

It's odd seeing docked tails nowadays......I am so used to undocked, etc. Looks like a cute little guy, though.


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## ekbaby734

Even though my tpoo is adopted, he has very long legs.. Sometimes I call him my mini _ mini _ horse. I dont know much about breeders.. Sorry Im not help, and good luck!


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## Marcie

liljaker said:


> How true about the poodles in Europe. as a Francophile, I visited Paris every year, for about 10 years (with the exception of the last couple of years dealing with Jake); anyway, I actually went to a few pet stores along the Seine and saw dogs everywhere, offleash of course, and was always looking for the poodles. The ones I did see seemed not breed standard at all (not sure what I expected), but again since it was in the City, the dogs I saw with their owners walking through the Tuilleries or along Saint Germaine Boulevard, were smaller, squatter and rarely nicely groomed. I always thought it odd -- perhaps out the countryside, and in other areas it may be different? I think if I saw a poodle like Sunny prancing along the boulevard, it would definitely appeared odd.


I did the same thing looking in the pet shops. We have only been 4 or 5 times, but I didn't see that many poodles. The ones we saw were usually in the mini range 11 to 15 inches. However, the ones I did see were pretty well put together. I saw a lot of Maltize and Pomeranians. I did see a nice white mini poodle at one of the flea markets (she was not for sale but there just to be with her owner). I think I took a picture of her. I will look around.

I wanted to go back in 2013 but now with the two girls, I don't know if I could leave them.


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