# Is your poodle (or breeder's poodles) OFA or CHIC? And this: $$$!



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Quite awhile ago, I decided that when Bella turns a year old, I'd get her DNA health tested, and later apply for OFA/CHIC. Here's the OFA list of approved labs to do this (link). 

At least several of these places run big sales, sometimes up to 50% off for a full poodle disease panel, like here and here. 

So that's do-able. But, the cost of the other requirements give me pause.

I'm a curious person, leading me to do a search of various breeder lines to see if they submitted any health testing on their poodles to OFA, regardless of size. Anyone can search their database here. 

A breeder candidly told me that a lot of breeders in the show world are very guarded about sharing the results of their dogs and will dance around or avoid the question. 

I was particularly interested in specific breeder lines and if their champion show dogs were listed, including ones in issues of Poodle Variety magazine. Quite a few aren't, and some only list a specific test such PRA for the eyes, and I wondered why. 

Rather than assume they're hiding something, I consider the cost of testing each dog. I'd like to get Bella have all the CHIC requirements, but heck, one of the requirements is an exam by a vet ophthalmologist. I called one - it's a whopping $294. At this place, just to check the patellas (knees), is about the same b/c the dog is seen by an orthopedic specialist; crazy expensive considering your general vet can do this in a routine exam - and hers will after her birthday.

Fortunately, OFA has a Health Screenings Calendar, where one or more specialist vets do various testing that's really reasonable! Their OFA eye exams only cost around $40. The downside is the locations may not be close or even in your state. 

Here's a little information I thought I'd share that some (many?) of you already know:

OFA-CHIC Health Testing Requirements - *Toy*

•	Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test 
DNA based test from an approved laboratory 
•	Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist, (One of the following) 
Results registered with OFA
Registered with CERF 
•	Patellar Luxation 
OFA Evaluation 


OFA-CHIC Health Testing Requirements - *Miniature*

•	Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test 
DNA Based test from an approved laboratory. 
•	Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist (One of the following)
Results registered with OFA
Registered with CERF 
•	Patellar Luxation 
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year 
•	Hip Dysplasia, (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation
OVC Evaluation
PennHIP Evaluation 


OFA-CHIC Health Testing Requirements - *Standard*

•	Hip Dysplasia; one of the following:
OFA Evaluation
OVC Evaluation
PennHIP Evaluation 
•	Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist; One of the following:
Results registered with OFA
Registered with CERF 
•	Health Elective; One of the following tests:
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist
Congenital Cardiac Exam
Advanced Cardiac Exam


I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Zoe came with certified pedigrees of her sire and dam that show OFA numbers for generations. I have not started on her testing yet. I am hoping there there will be health testing at the Panhandle Kennel Club shows in September (Amarillo, Texas).


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

All of my dogs' parents were fully health tested.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

Our local AKC club sponsors an annual health day. I took advantage of the $25 fee to have an eye exam of my non-spoo (who my vet said was beginning to develop cataracts). This is also where my spoo had eyes, cardiac, and patella exams.

Health days may be affiliated with an AKC conformation show or held separately, as the one that I attended was. And it wasn’t listed on a web site other than the club’s.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I will be getting a mini puppy in January or February (if breeding goes as planned)and the parents are health tested.

From my understanding, the eyes can go one generation without testing and be considered “cleared by parentage” because of the recessive nature of the trait. So, you may find that missing here and there. 

Also, I was told that some vets don’t participate with OFA, but any vet can X-ray hips and certify how sound they are, and some breeders will have individual vet records certifying hips. Anybody heard of that?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I believe a properly bred poodle should have both parents tested to meet the OFA-CHIC Health Testing Requirements. In addition the parents should also have shown that they were worth breeding either by conformation and/or participation in dog sports.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Vita glad you are looking into the health testing. Responsible breeders should have no hesitation sharing the health test results for their dogs. In fact, I would run away from a breeder who would not be willing to share. Some breeders may use another registry (Penn hip rather than OFA) Or they may not pay the extra $30 or so to have each test posted publicly on the OFA website. But they are not just choosing not to test their dogs for financial reasons. As someone mentioned certain genetic issues can be cleared by parentage. But it is still recommended to have the testing done every other generation or so just to be sure. I would run far away from anyone who was not willing to share results.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Skylar said:


> I believe a properly bred poodle should have both parents tested to meet the OFA-CHIC Health Testing Requirements. In addition the parents should also have shown that they were worth breeding either by conformation and/or participation in dog sports.


I agree with you 100% Skylar. Absolutely both parents should be fully tested and shown.

Also someone asked about a vet hip exam. Personally I would never do that on my own dog and I wouldn’t be okay with that on a bitch/stud that I was getting a puppy from. Vets are not trained specifically in that area. If you are too cheap to properly health test, then you shouldn’t be breeding (just a general statement, not directed at anyone.)


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

Health testing costs are a tiny drop in the bucket for most responsible breeders and is really not that costly since a lot of tests (such as hips) only need to be done once.
I highly doubt that the majority of dogs in Poodle Variety are not tested. You don't spend all that time and money showing/campaigning a dog and then not do testing.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Both of my poodles parents were fully and appropriately tested and neither of their breeders hesitated at all about giving me the results or the CHIC numbers to access them myself.


That said I would not bother doing that testing for any dog of my own unless I was planning to breed. I don't see why one would do so for any other reason than a plan to breed if the parents' testing was all clear.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> Both of my poodles parents were fully and appropriately tested and neither of their breeders hesitated at all about giving me the results or the CHIC numbers to access them myself.
> 
> 
> That said I would not bother doing that testing for any dog of my own unless I was planning to breed. I don't see why one would do so for any other reason than a plan to breed if the parents' testing was all clear.


I could see doing it for a bitch or dog destined for agility or other performance activity that would tax the hip and knee joints, but also understand one's regular vet or a local ortho specialist could likely provide sufficient clearances there. Especially with a well-bred Poodle, I would think one has much less of a worry - as with Lily and Javelin.

By comparison, after consulting a friend and her friend who are very involved in the agility world - and extremely knowledgeable - I trusted when they said Oliver was not a safe candidate. Already knew he was too straight and had a slightly wonky knee, but M and J got hands on with him and gave me the hard truth. Their key info has also helped inform the supplements I use with him. Oliver is still very perky, just I notice he's more so with the chondroitin drops.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Vita, I've read hips are only acceptable on or after age two, so maybe delaying some of that could makes sense?


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

*Streetcar*: I was pleased to learn that toy poodles aren't required to have their hips tested (see first post), so Bella won't need that. I was surprised that the bigger the poodle (toy-min-spoo), the more testing is required.

*Anyone*: I've always wondered about the effects of radiation on the reproductive areas from x-rays on hip testing. Just curious, does the vet have a led blanket to protect that area? Or is that possible due to the location?

*MysticRealm:* Rather than doubt if all the Poodle Variety campaigned poodles are OFA tested, spend some time checking it out yourself. You are in for a surprise. Some tests are published, yet others on the same dog and it's parents are glaringly absent. 

Also you mentioned testing needs to be done only once. Not true: _OFA eye certification numbers are valid for one year from the time of the exam_. (link) I noted that a lot of OFA/CHIC dog owners do not bother getting this annually; some do every few years, and considering the cost, I can't blame them for that if the PRA and first exam is clear, since money doesn't grow on trees. But when the PRA test is missing altogether yet others are there? 

*Scooterscout99* _"Health days may be affiliated with an AKC conformation show or held separately, as the one that I attended was. And it wasn’t listed on a web site other than the club’s."_ This is useful to know.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

I see you didn't bother to actually read my post where I said "A lot of the tests only need to be done once' Never once did I say NO tests need to be redone. It's still a teeny tiny cost to have the few tests redone that can't just be done once.
I also don't need to do all this weird research to know that people that are spending thousands upon thousands upon thousands of dollars advertising, promoting, and showing their dogs aren't just skipping the minute costs of health testing. Maybe the very odd person but it is certainly not something that is rampant. I'm actually *IN* the dog show world. Just cause you can't find results doesn't mean they haven't been done.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Vita, if you look up a dog on ofa to see the test results, there are many reasons why their health testing may not be posted there. 

For one, they may not have all of their testing done yet. Since the show dogs in poodle variety aren’t going to be bred until after hips are done at age two, sometimes they will hold off on getting all the testing done until it is closer to breeding time and then they will have it all done at once. 

Another reason is that like I said before, the results are not automatically posted, you have to pay for them to be posted. Some breeders may not bother to pay for all of the genetic tests to be posted, but may pay for the hips, for example. So just because you don’t see everything posted on ofa, doesn’t mean that they haven’t been fully tested. The only way to truly know is to contact the breeder and get copies of the health certificates. They should be happy to oblige for any potential puppy buyer that is actually serious and will be a suitable home.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Vita said:


> *Streetcar*: I was pleased to learn that toy poodles aren't required to have their hips tested (see first post), so Bella won't need that. I was surprised that the bigger the poodle (toy-min-spoo), the more testing is required.
> 
> *Anyone*: I've always wondered about the effects of radiation on the reproductive areas from x-rays on hip testing. Just curious, does the vet have a led blanket to protect that area? Or is that possible due to the location?
> 
> ...


Yep, I know, thanks. Since you brought it up, I wanted to add the clarifying information.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Here's a super fast, time-saving tip for anyone whose interested.

Go to OFA Advanced Search. Select on Poodle under the breed. You can narrow this down to poodle size. Scroll to the bottom and click on Begin Search.

You'll get many pages of the names of poodles listed. Instead, click on download. 



This will give you an Excel Sheet where _on one line_, you can see all the information, like here:



You can then use the 'find' feature to seek a specific line of poodles or an individual poodle. In columns G & J, you can see which tests were done and the results released by the owner, with other information in other columns, including on sires/dams. It's a marvelous feature by OFA. 

As others have said here, testing may have been done but not uploaded or revealed to OFA for various reasons, and I'm aware of this. I find it helpful as a quick tool to see what's what online.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Streetcar, yes if you wanted to do a performance sport with a spoo that required jumping you might want an OFA hip X ray, but a good vet can also usually palpate well enough how the ball sits in the socket on the hips and give a decent evaluation on knee luxations to give you a good read on whether the dog is structurally sound for such activities.


It is entirely possible that tests have been done but not all results are shown. Sometimes it takes time or things get lost in the ether. Also the costs are not necessarily so prohibitive as has been suggested. Most active conformation show.breeders use the clinics that are offered at many larger clusters. For example the Thanksgiving cluster in W. Springfield, MA offers an eye clinic among others. These are generally fairly low cost. I met up with Javelin's breeders at that cluster during his first year since they were there just to have two dogs eye tests done. Both of those dogs also had just had SA skin punch biopsies. And yes if you need hips done you can't get a final read until the dog is over 2 years old. And I rather doubt a vet would put a lead apron on an animal having an X ray, not to mention that they wouldn't be able to see hips if the region of the gonads was covered in either bitches or dogs.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Neely's breeder was recently named an "AKC Breeder of Merit." So if you're looking for health-tested dogs, that a designation you may want to look for. 

Here are the requirements, per the AKC web site:

*Who Can Participate*
In order to be accepted into the program a breeder must:


Have a history of at least 5 years involvement with AKC events.
Have earned AKC Conformation, Performance or Companion event titles on a minimum of 4 dogs from AKC litters they bred or co-bred.
Be a member of an AKC club.
Certify that applicable health screens are performed on your breeding stock as recommended by the Parent Club.
Demonstrate that 100% of the puppies produced are individually AKC registered.

When she was planning her next litter, we talked about co-owning a male if she had one she wanted to keep in her breeding program. Time will tell how that works out!

I think that parti-colors, other non-solid patterns like phantom and brindle, and abstracts may be AKC-registered based on their breeding. Such colors are a DQ in AKC conformation, but they may be shown in performance events. HOWEVER, it's very easy to register an AKC puppy in the UKC venue, where multi-color poodles may be shown in conformation.

AKC's exclusion of non-solid colors always seemed silly to me, since if you look at drawings and paintings of early poodles, parti-colors are clearly part of the breed's history.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Vita said:


> Quite awhile ago, I decided that when Bella turns a year old, I'd get her DNA health tested, and later apply for OFA/CHIC. Here's the OFA list of approved labs to do this (link).
> 
> At least several of these places run big sales, sometimes up to 50% off for a full poodle disease panel, like here and here.
> 
> ...


We are on our fourth generation of tested reds and proud of it, so we are only too happy to share our results on OFA. While we do wish their rates were better for listing tests, we will continue to post our results there. And we send the parent's printed out OFA pages in our puppy kits with each puppy as they leave us. 

Our testing is generally eyes, hips, elbows, cardiac, thyroid, patellas, DM, vWd, NE and dentition.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> We are on our fourth generation of tested reds and proud of it, so we are only too happy to share our results on OFA. While we do wish their rates were better for listing tests, we will continue to post our results there. And we send the parent's printed out OFA pages in our puppy kits with each puppy as they leave us.
> 
> Our testing is generally eyes, hips, elbows, cardiac, thyroid, patellas, DM, vWd, NE and dentition.


Arreau, I knew your program was top notch before even reading this. I read through your site long ago (out of my usual curiosity and sheer love of learning) and your program is simply amazing.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Carolinek said:


> Also, I was told that some vets don’t participate with OFA, but any vet can X-ray hips and certify how sound they are, and some breeders will have individual vet records certifying hips. Anybody heard of that?



A vet has to be taught how to properly x-ray hips. I asked my current vet if she does OFA hip x-rays and, to her credit, she said that she does not but can refer me to someone who does them. So the short answer is that while any vet can use an x-ray machine that does not mean that s/he can properly x-ray and evaluate for hip dysplasia.



A hip x-ray is done by positioning the dog on his/her back and gently pulling the hind legs. It is best done with the full cooperation of the dog, but that obviously is often not possible. The trick is not to sedate the dog too much because that will result in an inaccurate x-ray because the femur head is not held normally in the pelvic socket. At least, that is what I have been told by a vet who did many hip x-rays. That was long ago and maybe things have changed.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

None of ours have needed sedation for their hip xrays. If they are at all uneasy, we go in with them, protected and assist.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I absolutely would not buy a puppy from a breeder who did not make information about health testing and pedigree easily available. IMO it should be on their web site. When I was looking for a puppy seven years ago (I got Cammie) I was amazed to hear some breeders say that for one reason or another they did not want to give pedigree or testing info. One said that she would give me pedigree info after I put is deposit down! I think it is a huge red flag if pedigree and testing info is not easily available.

Sam and Cammie both have CHIC numbers. If anyone wants to see what a testing page on OFA looks like, you can see Sam's here:
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1799305


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

peppersb said:


> ... I was amazed to hear some breeders say that for one reason or another they did not want to give pedigree or testing info. One said that she would give me pedigree info after I put is deposit down!


Thank you for saying this, Peppersb; this was precisely my point when I began this thread. 



Vita said:


> ...A breeder candidly told me that a lot of breeders in the show world are very guarded about sharing the results of their dogs and will dance around or avoid the question...


She also mentioned one line that has a lot of PRA but they don't talk about it. This is what led me to do my own research of randomly looking through dogs on OFA from various lines, including random ones in PV magazine. And then I began to research. Fascinating stuff indeed... but despicably unethical in my eyes when results are deliberately hidden from the unsuspecting buyer. 

Nice health testing and pedigree, btw.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

The breeder who would not give me the pedigree until I put a deposit down was doing some serious inbreeding. One of their breeding bitches was the product of a father to daughter breeding. I think that inbreeding is often a reason for breeders to refuse to give pedigree information. Anyone buying a pup should look up registered names of the parents on poodledata.org. Check for inbreeding (the same dog appearing too frequently in the pedigree), and check for championships.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

Johanna said:


> A vet has to be taught how to properly x-ray hips. I asked my current vet if she does OFA hip x-rays and, to her credit, she said that she does not but can refer me to someone who does them. So the short answer is that while any vet can use an x-ray machine that does not mean that s/he can properly x-ray and evaluate for hip dysplasia.


So true. My dog’s breeder came from another state to have one of her dog’s hip x-rays taken at my veterinary clinic. The Dr. is an orthopedic specialist and the breeder really liked my boy’s x-rays. OFA evaluates the x-rays by sending to 3 separate vets. There is information on their web site about the rate of agreement between their evaluators.

Not sure what to think of my vet’s comment that he believed my dog’s hips to be excellent or good, “but you never know what the OFA will say.” They came back as excellent.


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