# tall toy poodle?!



## Fabihanski (Jul 27, 2015)

Hi, i got a toy poodle over a month ago and i measured her height at her shoulders today, and it seems at 4 months old, she is already 10 inches tall, Does this mean she can be re-classed as a miniature when she is fully grown? or will she just be an oversize toy. Could it be possible she is already done growing?!


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

She will always be a toy poodle, and it's very possible that she's done growing.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I agree that she will always be a toy poodle, but can't agree that she may be done growing - the earliest I have heard of a poodle finish growing is 7 months, some will continue growing until 15 months (the first heat signals the close of the growth plates). Obviously the growth slows down as they get older, but you cannot be certain that they are totally finished until the first heat (and that is why they say that bitches spayed before their first heat may have an overly tall appearance and have orthopedic problems - without the onset of puberty, their bones will continue to grow longer than nature intended.
Are you certain that you measured correctly - I have never, ever been able to get the same measurement on a poodle in my life, no matter how hard I try!
Is she a squarely built dog? How much does she weigh?


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I too agree she will always be a toy poodle no matter how big she gets if both of her parents are toy poodles.

I have never heard of a toy poodle being done growing at 4 months. 

If you aren't showing or breeding there is nothing wrong with an oversized toy. If fact I think it would be a wonderful size. 

Many times two in size parents can have a pup go over or under sized.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

N2Mischief said:


> I too agree she will always be a toy poodle no matter how big she gets if both of her parents are toy poodles.
> 
> I have never heard of a toy poodle being done growing at 4 months.
> 
> ...



Yes, I agree with everyone else. If the parents are both toys then she will always be a toy. In our city, I have met 2 over sized toys, and they were gorgeous. Just the right size. Personally, I wouldn't ever get the real tiny ones. I like my Poodles to be 6 or 7 lbs, a regular size toy. They were just the right size for going on hikes and backpacking ( in our younger days, that is).


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## LindaR (May 3, 2009)

My last poodle was an "oversized" toy. That's how I ended up lucky enough to get her. The breeder had kept her and one of her sisters for showing. Miss Millie grew too tall!!! She was 10 3/4 inches.

Her weight maxed out at 7.5 pounds. She was perfect! Had her for 15 years!


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Well, I am New here but I don't agree. What decides the type of poodle are not the parents but the shoulder height. Sires will give toy and miniature babies. The same litter can thus have toy and miniatures in it. As soon as the dog is more than 10 inches, it is a miniature, not an oversized toy. There is no such thing as an oversize toy or miniature, for that matter.


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## Fabihanski (Jul 27, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I agree that she will always be a toy poodle, but can't agree that she may be done growing - the earliest I have heard of a poodle finish growing is 7 months, some will continue growing until 15 months (the first heat signals the close of the growth plates). Obviously the growth slows down as they get older, but you cannot be certain that they are totally finished until the first heat (and that is why they say that bitches spayed before their first heat may have an overly tall appearance and have orthopedic problems - without the onset of puberty, their bones will continue to grow longer than nature intended.
> Are you certain that you measured correctly - I have never, ever been able to get the same measurement on a poodle in my life, no matter how hard I try!
> Is she a squarely built dog? How much does she weigh?


I'm pretty sure i measured correctly, i used a tape measure from the floor to the top of the shoulder blades. I don't ever intent to spay my poodle, ever. She was 2.7 kg, but she has been putting weight on like crazy, yesterday morning, she was 2.65, the afternoon she jumped to 2.7, I'm guessing today she is 2.75-2.8 as she has eaten a lot. Her build is very slight rectangular but if i hold her tail and head up, she is pretty close to a square.


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## Fabihanski (Jul 27, 2015)

So will the KC keep her registered as toy poodle, or will they make her a miniature, she isnt a 'breeder' dog, although i am expecting at least 2 litters in her lifetime. I will be training her for agility after her first heat, she's very springy at times and she would love it!


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I am not à breeder but my guess is unless you ask for the change yourself, the AKC has no way of knowing. It says à lot about tour breeder tough. It should have been obvious right from birth that your puppy Was a miniature. You're going to have a lot of fun in agility with her !


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Fabihanski said:


> I'm pretty sure i measured correctly, i used a tape measure from the floor to the top of the shoulder blades. I don't ever intent to spay my poodle, ever. She was 2.7 kg, but she has been putting weight on like crazy, yesterday morning, she was 2.65, the afternoon she jumped to 2.7, I'm guessing today she is 2.75-2.8 as she has eaten a lot. Her build is very slight rectangular but if i hold her tail and head up, she is pretty close to a square.



Wow, that sounds like a good sized Mini that you have got there, not a Toy!
However, in the USA, poodles are not registered by size, they are all registered as poodles. Size only comes into play in the show ring. BUT even though a dog born of two Toy parents may go oversize and be of the correct height to be entered as a Miniature, the bone structure of Mini's is not the same as Toy's, and the dog of Toy parentage would never win in the Mini ring.
Therefore we would call a dog born of Toys, but too big to compete in the Toy ring an oversized Toy, not a Miniature.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Wow, that sounds like a good sized Mini that you have got there, not a Toy!
> However, in the USA, poodles are not registered by size, they are all registered as poodles. Size only comes into play in the show ring. BUT even though a dog born of two Toy parents may go oversize and be of the correct height to be entered as a Miniature, the bone structure of Mini's is not the same as Toy's, and the dog of Toy parentage would never win in the Mini ring.
> Therefore we would call a dog born of Toys, but too big to compete in the Toy ring an oversized Toy, not a Miniature.



That's interesting Tiny Poodles ! Are you a breeder yourself ? I have to call my breeder this week and I'll have a chat with her about that. She breeds for show purposes so her insight will be interesting.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

True, I don't know how it is in the UK but in the United States this is true. My Misha had 3 in her litter. She went undersized. Both her brother (littermate) and sister (littermate) went oversized. All still considered toys.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Dechi said:


> That's interesting Tiny Poodles ! Are you a breeder yourself ? I have to call my breeder this week and I'll have a chat with her about that. She breeds for show purposes so her insight will be interesting.



No, I am not a breeder, just love the breed 
Are the size requirements for Toys the same in the UK? I have noticed on Facebook Toy Poodle groups that many of the folks from the UK have poodles that look way oversized to me, so I have wondered if the size delineation are different there?


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Pippin is a toy - from toy parents, from Crufts shown dogs with a pedigree as long as your arm and still all toys. KC registered as a toy.

She is just over 10 inches tall so would "fail" in showing probably.

In her litter of 3 there were two of her size and one much smaller. Her sister (the larger) stopped growing just soon enough for show purposes, and her other sister is a small toy.

She looks bigger because she's muscular owing to her lifestyle, but definitely still a toy!

When side-by-side with our miniature the differences are obvious in their structure.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Zoe"s features are very much like a toy.
They claim her parents were both toys.
She is almost 8lbs and 12 inches. You would not mistake her as a mini even though she is 12 inches in height.
My neighbor has a small mini and their structure looks different to me.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

The structures are very different between the sizes. There are some notable exceptions though. * Chagall * is an oversized mini that really looks like a small standard. Even his face/muzzle. 

Usually oversized minis don't have the same structure as standards. He's such a cool little guy


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Naira said:


> The structures are very different between the sizes. There are some notable exceptions though. * Chagall * is an oversized mini that really looks like a small standard. Even his face/muzzle.
> 
> Usually oversized minis don't have the same structure as standards. He's such a cool little guy



Timi and Lily look remarkably similar - the resemblance is even more striking in person!


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

According to the AKC, poodles are poodles are poodles. When submitting your AKC application for registration, You may (or may not) select a variety and if you select the incorrect variety you can have it changed for a $20 fee. Variety is not printed on registration or pedigrees and Is only used for reference purposes. A dog produced from toy parents which matures to over 10" but less than 15" is considered an "over-sized" toy by poodle enthusiasts but not within the AKC, which would consider the dog a poodle of the miniature variety.

Now, with that being said, there are structural differences between each variety if the are not produced to adhere directly to the breed standard. But a nicely bred toy should be a replica of its mini and standard counterparts. So a reputable breeder striving to breed correct dogs is important. And, a reputable breeder breeding a specific variety is more likely to produce the desired size.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Mehpenn said:


> According to the AKC, poodles are poodles are poodles. When submitting your AKC application for registration, You may (or may not) select a variety and if you select the incorrect variety you can have it changed for a $20 fee. Variety is not printed on registration or pedigrees and Is only used for reference purposes. A dog produced from toy parents which matures to over 10" but less than 15" is considered an "over-sized" toy by poodle enthusiasts but not within the AKC, which would consider the dog a poodle of the miniature variety.
> 
> Now, with that being said, there are structural differences between each variety if the are not produced to adhere directly to the breed standard. But a nicely bred toy should be a replica of its mini and standard counterparts. So a reputable breeder striving to breed correct dogs is important. And, a reputable breeder breeding a specific variety is more likely to produce the desired size.


I'm wondering what everybody means by the word, "structure." Conformation? Or bone density or something? I guess that is what is throwing me...not meaning to be rude or anything. Perhaps a more specific description or pin pointing of what is meant would be helpful. Naturally, the bigger dogs will have bigger, heavier bones than the petite, delicate toys. And the mini's would be somewhere in between.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I'm wondering what everybody means by the word, "structure." Conformation? Or bone density or something? I guess that is what is throwing me...not meaning to be rude or anything. Perhaps a more specific description or pin pointing of what is meant would be helpful. Naturally, the bigger dogs will have bigger, heavier bones than the petite, delicate toys. And the mini's would be somewhere in between.





Not sure if structure or conformation is the better word to use but this is what I meant. 

Here is an oversized mini. This dog is probably 17-18 inches, but by its bone structure/confirmation you can tell it's a miniature. 








In contrast to Chagall... 








They have completely different builds.

If I didn't know Chagall was a mini and went by pictures alone, I would think he was a standard. It has a little to do with his height and a lot to do with his bone structure. I've seen "minis" that were even taller than Chagall that don't have his structure.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Attaching another pic of Chagall because he's so gosh darn cute. 

I agree with everyone -- the structures between the sizes should be the same but often are not. Timi, Chagall, Pearl and Dakota off the top of my head are good examples of the breed. Most dogs I see on PF look fabulous actually.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Naira said:


> View attachment 278137
> 
> 
> Attaching another pic of Chagall because he's so gosh darn cute.
> ...


He is gorgeous ! How do you get the hair on the ears so fluffy and full ?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Naira said:


> Not sure if structure or conformation is the better word to use but this is what I meant.
> 
> Here is an oversized mini. This dog is probably 17-18 inches, but by its bone structure/confirmation you can tell it's a miniature.
> View attachment 278121
> ...


I can't tell as their hair clips are very different and I'm not a judge. They do indeed look different. Maybe their conformation_ is _different. But it shouldn't be. As far as my understanding from AKC, the conformation standard is the same in all three sizes....that size requirements for each variety is the only difference. Of course there will be variations within any breed or variety. They're not clones. lol. But as far as being put together differently, no, there is only one standard or description for all three sizes. You can take any breed and find differences that may veer away from the standard and some that are very much adhering to the breed standard. That's what conformation showing is for. 

The standard that I found on the Poodle Club of America website won't copy and paste plus it's hard to read...very poor, grainy copy. If you squint you may be able to read it.

But it says something like as long as the toy poodle is definitely a toy poodle and the miniature is definitely a miniature and the standard is definitely a standard, *all in balance and proportion to their variety, *(which means correct conformation and size) all things being equal, diminutiveness shall be the deciding factor. (so I take that to mean they shouldn't be cobby) in any of the 3 varieties because they're not referring to one variety or another, but in general, all Poodles. (from what I could understand) 

If there is something that you know that I don't as far as the standard saying something about actual structure being different, I'd be interested to see something official because everything I've ever read or heard is that all Poodles have the same standard except for size. Only size. Here is the standard:

https://books.google.com/books?id=u...tten standard for all three varieties&f=false





From the AKC website:

Poodle Dog Breed Information - American Kennel Club



> meet the
> Poodle
> Did you know?
> 
> The denominations Standard, Miniature, and Toy are used to describe size only. All the Poodles are one breed, governed by the same standard.




Here when you click this, is a picture of all three sizes in a continental clip. The only difference I see is in their size. Proportionately or ratio-wize they appear the same to me. 

Sizes Of Poodles - Poodle Club of America

What I could do is email my breeder who has been a judge for many years, including at Westminster and other very big shows. I could ask him for what he thinks. But he may not have time to get back to me if he's traveling. How should I put it? Is there a difference in structure between the 3 varieties? Or is there a difference in conformation? Is one suppose to look different in other ways besides height?

I think my two Poodles are good examples of the breed. Several judges thought Matisse was a good example...his angles are right, his chest is right, his head is "magnificent" (judge's word)...his gait is beautiful, something the judge in one show said he doesn't see very often as nice. He has a somewhat washed out nose color. That is not so great. But structurally, he's a very good example. He's in size and his temperament is delightful.


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

I think the issue in " structure" lies mainly in breeding practices through the years. For some breeders the goal has been to produce a specific variety because that's what was desired and thus brought in more revenue. And in doing so, specifically in the toy variety, some features of a "true to the standard" poodle have been compromised. Not saying that's a good or a bad thing but in lots of lines, especially pet quality, there is a drastic difference in " structure" (bone structure, overall build, facial structure, proportion, etc). 
Ideally a toy would be an exact replica of a standard but in breeding down (size) certain characteristics have been exaggerate or lost. 
Which raises the question, at some point would it be beneficial to introduce a different variety into the line to soften an exaggerated feature?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Mehpenn said:


> I think the issue in " structure" lies mainly in breeding practices through the years. For some breeders the goal has been to produce a specific variety because that's what was desired and thus brought in more revenue. And in doing so, specifically in the toy variety, some features of a "true to the standard" poodle have been compromised. Not saying that's a good or a bad thing but in lots of lines, especially pet quality, there is a drastic difference in " structure" (bone structure, overall build, facial structure, proportion, etc).
> Ideally a toy would be an exact replica of a standard but in breeding down (size) certain characteristics have been exaggerate or lost.
> *Which raises the question, at some point would it be beneficial to introduce a different variety into the line to soften an exaggerated feature*?


Oh yes, one can look at many, many breeds and see extreme exaggerations and see standards not being exactly adhered to and in some cases causing real trouble in the breed. Look at English Bulldogs.

As far as mixing varieties, I'm afraid it might cause some proportional issues because of the way inheritance works. Unfortunately, keeping the breeds very uniform also means less genetic variation, which is problematic.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oh yes, one can look at many, many breeds and see extreme exaggerations and see standards not being exactly adhered to and in some cases causing real trouble in the breed. Look at English Bulldogs.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as mixing varieties, I'm afraid it might cause some proportional issues because of the way inheritance works. Unfortunately, keeping the breeds very uniform also means less genetic variation, which is problematic.



It can be done, if it is done with care. I believe that about 15 years ago Timi's breeder brought some minis into her line, and her dogs have no proportion issues at all!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Well, it could be. You couldn't prove it by me. I don't know that much about it.


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