# Interesting COI finds from way back when



## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

Another interesting thing you can find on both the SPD and PHR datbase is the # of unique ancestors.
In a 10 gereration pedigree, there are 2046 possible ancestors.
Most pedigree's have the same dogs several times in the background, so
it has a greater influence.
The higher # of unique dogs, the more diverse the pedigree.
This is from Dr. Armstrongs website- at the time of his death, the highest # of unique ancestors he had found was 938 from a possible 2046.



Unique ancestors
Most of the dogs described above have a low COI due to their parents being from different lines (despite the parents themselves being moderately to highly inbred). There are also some whose parents are not highly inbred, but I presently have too few examples to tell whether there is any significant difference and health and longevity between the two groups. 
The number of possible unique ancestors doubles in each generation. The following table gives the expected number in each generation and the cumulative number up to 10 generations. 



Generation No. in generation Cumulative No. Best achieved 
1 (parents) 2 2 2 
2 4 6 6 
3 8 14 14 
4 16 30 30 
5 32 62 59 
6 64 126 115 
7 128 254 218 
8 256 510 385 
9 512 1022 624 
10 1024 2046 938 

Most of the Standard Poodle pedigrees have 350-400 unique ancestors in a 10-generation pedigree. The lowest I have on record has 79, and an COI of approximately 70%. The highest have 700-800 and are all below 5%. 

Among all the pedigrees I have examined, that of Dorothy Dehn's Cafe Rubio de Beau Raccoon has the greatest number of unique ancestors, as shown in the final column of the table. This is truly remarkable pedigree. (His COI is 3.34%)


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> One of my Moms top breeding dogs when she was still breeding blacks had a COI of over 24%!!! This solves a myystery for me. Most of our dogs did not live past ten years old. A few lived to be 14-16, but they were the dogs with the lower COI's. So, this is certainly confirming what the Canine Diversity Project has stated- that dogs with a lower COI tend to live longer.


I'm not sure that it confirms it. Rather it is anecdotal evidence that substantiates it.



> As a kid/teenager, I never questioned why our dogs died young. Now, it is all making sense to me.


Did you guys keep a record of why your dogs died? That would be interesting.



> Trillium was able to pull up the pedigree of her very first Standard, and found his COI to be 29.4 % as well. He died at ten years of age of bloat.


My Sabrina's COI is 5.04%. She still bloated. The Tiara kennel in California got obsessed with COI and started breeding Minis to Standards. They produced a litter with a COI of 2.29% yet those puppies have proved to be quite unhealthy (Legg-Perthes, severe allergies, retinal dysplasia). 

So no... lower COI does not necessarily mean healthier dogs. COI is simply another piece of the puzzle to consider when breeding.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Agree with this Cbrand. Total outcrosses you never know what you will pull forward. Dogs die for lots of reasons. Bad food, Bloat (Which BTW we still do not know for sure what causes this) cancer heart issues the things that we did not test for way back then. the PHR is a tool COI is a tool health testing is a tool Pedigrees area tool..Knowing what you have is pulling all these tools out and using ALL of them not jsut hanging your hat on one..


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Never once did I say it is the end all and be all, but I will certainly make low COI's a HUGE consideration when choosing patners for my dogs. Not hanging my hat on it, just making sure that on TOP of everything else, that the dogs I choose to breed to ALSO has a low COI.

I think that you will get cases of cancer, bloat, Addisons, etc., even if you have a low COI, but I also think that the incidence of these things will be higher if the puppies from a litter have a high COI.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I also agree with cbrand. I think the COI should be used as a tool, I never knew about COI until I came on this forum. I just read pedigrees and can tell if the dog is inbred a lot or not just by looking at the pedigree. I like that you can actually get a % with these auto calulators. 

I too experienced low COI problems with my cats , with terrible results. So IMO you just have to know your lines and the lines you would like to breed your dogs too. 

It just all depends. I have seen some future breedings on dogs I did not care for only because its not going to improve the breed and the coi was high. Those types of breeders make no since to me at all.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I also agree with cbrand. I think the COI should be used as a tool, I never knew about COI until I came on this forum. I just read pedigrees and can tell if the dog is inbred a lot or not just by looking at the pedigree. I like that you can actually get a % with these auto calulators.
> 
> I too experienced low COI problems with my cats , with terrible results. So IMO you just have to know your lines and the lines you would like to breed your dogs too.
> 
> It just all depends. I have seen some future breedings on dogs I did not care for only because its not going to improve the breed and the coi was high. Those types of breeders make no since to me at all.


I definately agree with that last statement. If yotu are going to risk a high COI, best make it worthwhile and use a dog with a high COI ONLY if it brings a lot to the table!!


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

My thoughts on this are simply I lost Rusty (my first standard) when he was 10 years old. My oldest son remembers him and still misses him and gets very upset from time to time about his passing. My whole family would have given a lot to be able to have a few more years with him. 

There are absolutely no guarantees with anything, life is not that way I wish it was. BUT had he had a lower coi would he have lived longer? Well from the canine diversity project the answer I get is on average yes. So if we can breed dogs using something that could give them a few extra years with a pet they love isn't that worth doing? I know that health testing is certainly part of it and they can work together to provide us with the tools to be able to breed a dog that is hopefully as healthy and as long lived as we can make it. To me this is a goal that is worth striving for. The ability to be able to provide a family with a furry family member that they can on average live those extra few years. That is a priceless thing to the families who own and love those dogs. I wish that I had the chance to be able to know if we would have been able to keep Rusty with us longer if his coi was lower.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> but I also think that the incidence of these things will be higher if the puppies from a litter have a high COI.


No, I don't think that the incidents will necessarily be higher. If one linebreeds on a dog who lives to be 15 and who has consistently produced healthy puppies, then a higher COI will not magically give you unhealthy puppies.

At least one of your Mom's dogs died at an early age because her line had an issue with Bloat. Even if she had outcrossed, she still could have passed a genetic predisposition for Bloat down to the outcrossed puppies.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Thats weird. None of our dogs died of bloat.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I was curious to see what the COI on your last litter was, Arreau and it is low at 3.53. One thing that caught my eye, though was that it looks like you bred Holly to Duncan when Duncan was only 14 months old. Is that right? 

So many Poodle health issues can not be tested for and don't express themselves until our dogs are 3+ yrs old. Waiting to breed until our Poodles are older allows us to not only see the how healthy our breeding parents are, but to see the overall health of a line: grandparents, siblings, aunts, uncles etc. I know with Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, buyers are counseled to only buy from breeding parents who are over age 5 who have clear tested hearts. 

I know long term health is an issue for you. Frankly, I wish it were an issue for more breeders. I would encourage you for the sake of long term health in your puppies and line to look for older studs who have a demonstrated track record of good health.

COI... pedigree study..... health testing... taking a wait and see approach... All of these are tools that a breeder can use to produce puppies that will hopefully live a long, long time.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Thats weird. None of our dogs died of bloat.


Sorry I was confusing Trilliums dog with yours. Do you know why your dogs died?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

A lot of very weird cancers (two died of oral cancer) one died being hit by a car because she was in a stupor from phenobarbital (she was a severe epileptic) and various other things, but at young ages (less than eleven).


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Sorry cbrand...I was not being evasive by not answering you in my last post. Yes, I used Dugan at fourteen months. He brought a lot to the table for what I was trying to achieve. My girl is large, he is smaller, he has an incredible topline, much better than hers, He comes from Palmares lines, which appear to be extremely healthy. He came from remarkably healthy bloodlines (I did research his pedigree) had some preliminary testing done which all came back great, and to top it off, had a remarkably low COI. I knew there were some risks, but was confident enough to keep one of the offspring for future breeding, then had an opportunity to get another back for my breeding program too. It worked out great, because Dugan has had his hips OFA`d good, his CERF has been done and his eyes are terrific. I know there was a small risk, but would I do it again with the same dogs, knowing what I know now... Probably. Why... Because I was ready to move forward with my breeding program, and there are just not a lot of males out there I would remotely consider using. If his background had been at all questionable, or his preliminary testing were coming back iffy, I would have waited. If his COI had been high, I would not have used him at all. But everything came together, and the pups we produced using him are beyond my wildest dreams. He and Holly make magic together conformationally and as far as colour goes. Will the offspring remain healthy. I am quite certain they will. Both parents COI`s are very low producing puppies with low COI`s. Both parents testing has come back good. Both parents are from healthy backgrounds with good longevity pedigrees (those that have been reported) and both are healthy themselves. While I knew there could have been risks, after researching, I am very glad I did it.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

This is a bit off subject about COI but still inline to long healthy lives. Something I find of great importance in lengthening a dog's life is by getting senior blood profiles every 6 months. You can get early detection of Liver and kidney failure due to aging. In Elsa's case, she takes a regular over the counter vitamin called Milk Thistle which has put her numbers back into the normal range. (Denmarin is usually the drug of choice in these cases and it contains Milk Thistle. However in Elsa case the regular vitamin did better then the $60 a month drug.) Also a lower protein diet of less then 20% is recommended. If left untreated the numbers would have continued to climb and thus reduce her life expectancy. All three of my elders get a full blood workup every 6 months. It's not cheap either, we spend approximately $400 each time for each one. They also get their Milk Thistle (we take it too, one of those wonder drugs like aspirin.) their Senior Vitamin, Glucosamine and 3V-caps. They are very robust and active seniors.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

thestars said:


> This is a bit off subject about COI but still inline to long healthy lives. Something I find of great importance in lengthening a dog's life is by getting senior blood profiles every 6 months. You can get early detection of Liver and kidney failure due to aging. In Elsa's case, she takes a regular over the counter vitamin called Milk Thistle which has put her numbers back into the normal range. (Denmarin is usually the drug of choice in these cases and it contains Milk Thistle. However in Elsa case the regular vitamin did better then the $60 a month drug.) Also a lower protein diet of less then 20% is recommended. If left untreated the numbers would have continued to climb and thus reduce her life expectancy. All three of my elders get a full blood workup every 6 months. It's not cheap either, we spend approximately $400 each time for each one. They also get their Milk Thistle (we take it too, one of those wonder drugs like aspirin.) their Senior Vitamin, Glucosamine and 3V-caps. They are very robust and active seniors.


Good Advise Stars! Thanks for pointing out that the elders do deserve as much attention as the younger breeding dogs.....


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

thestars said:


> This is a bit off subject about COI but still inline to long healthy lives. Something I find of great importance in lengthening a dog's life is by getting senior blood profiles every 6 months. You can get early detection of Liver and kidney failure due to aging. In Elsa's case, she takes a regular over the counter vitamin called Milk Thistle which has put her numbers back into the normal range. (Denmarin is usually the drug of choice in these cases and it contains Milk Thistle. However in Elsa case the regular vitamin did better then the $60 a month drug.) Also a lower protein diet of less then 20% is recommended. If left untreated the numbers would have continued to climb and thus reduce her life expectancy. All three of my elders get a full blood workup every 6 months. It's not cheap either, we spend approximately $400 each time for each one. They also get their Milk Thistle (we take it too, one of those wonder drugs like aspirin.) their Senior Vitamin, Glucosamine and 3V-caps. They are very robust and active seniors.


Just to not confuse anyone Milk thistle is a herb not vitamin. Just thought I clarify that. I have used it in my hair before. 

thanks for sharing that info about it. I like to taking herbal supplements


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Sorry cbrand...I was not being evasive by not answering you in my last post. Yes, I used Dugan at fourteen months. He brought a lot to the table for what I was trying to achieve. My girl is large, he is smaller, he has an incredible topline, much better than hers, He comes from Palmares lines, which appear to be extremely healthy. He came from remarkably healthy bloodlines (I did research his pedigree) had some preliminary testing done which all came back great, and to top it off, had a remarkably low COI. I knew there were some risks, but was confident enough to keep one of the offspring for future breeding, then had an opportunity to get another back for my breeding program too. It worked out great, because Dugan has had his hips OFA`d good, his CERF has been done and his eyes are terrific. I know there was a small risk, but would I do it again with the same dogs, knowing what I know now... Probably. Why... Because I was ready to move forward with my breeding program, and there are just not a lot of males out there I would remotely consider using. If his background had been at all questionable, or his preliminary testing were coming back iffy, I would have waited. If his COI had been high, I would not have used him at all. But everything came together, and the pups we produced using him are beyond my wildest dreams. He and Holly make magic together conformationally and as far as colour goes. Will the offspring remain healthy. I am quite certain they will. Both parents COI`s are very low producing puppies with low COI`s. Both parents testing has come back good. Both parents are from healthy backgrounds with good longevity pedigrees (those that have been reported) and both are healthy themselves. While I knew there could have been risks, after researching, I am very glad I did it.


Personally I think the pedigree is a bit scary His brother OFA'd as a fair and there is quite a bit of Fair back there.. But then he has a low COI so there is that....


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Isn't fair passing? I've seen dogs in pedigrees with excellent and good make mild dysplastic dogs. Isn't hip dysplasia polygenetic? So it's one of those things that's very hard to pinpoint. While I agree that breeding fair to fair is risky and you should breed up, hips are an iffy business in breeding.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

I know that Milk Thistle is a supplement. However, my dogs only know the word "vitamins" not "supplements" and they know when they have to take them since they remind us at 10 pm every night and you will definitely hear about it in this household if you are not on time. You ask them if the want their "vitamins" and they go crazy. Sometimes we think and talk in our dogs terms. Once they get "vitamins" they go off to bed. Such ritual creatures. LOL


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> He came from remarkably healthy bloodlines (I did research his pedigree) had some preliminary testing done which all came back great, and to top it off, had a remarkably low COI.


I didn't think you were trying to be evasive. I just thought you answered the other one 1st.

Now.....I'm really not trying to nit pick, I only want to explore the issue. Ducan's parents were both under 2 when he was born. Duncan's dam wasn't even 3 yrs old herself when her grand-pups were born. That's not really enough time to see if the dogs behind your puppies stayed healthy. (poodlepedigree shows that Ducan's maternal grand-sire died at age 9....though who knows why).

I speak about this age issue from personal experience. I waited to breed my Sabrina until she was over age 4. Her daughter that I had kept was going on age 3 and I had not yet bred her. I'm so glad I waited, because when Sabrina Bloated it meant that I only had one generation on the ground. It was fairly easy (if ending a line you have worked hard on is ever easy) to nip the problem in the bud.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

In a breed where the hips are all good or better At least in my experience this is not the optimal choice . Will I throw it out with the bathwater no . But it is frightening to me that there are so many fairs back there in the pedigree, are there worse things....... Yep...
You are correct that even two good OFA's can make a dysplastic ...


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Plus at 14 months is the dog really finished growing to see how he's going to turn out? Why not just wait it out until he's 2 and had all his testing finished? What's a few more months of waiting going to do? That's one maybe 2 heat cycles for the bitch. If you really want the bitch bred why not use a stud that's got what you want to improve on her and fully tested? I just think it's way to early to breed any dog at that age. There are too many variables to consider.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> In a breed where the hips are all good or better At least in my experience this is not the optimal choice . Will I throw it out with the bathwater no . But it is frightening to me that there are so many fairs back there in the pedigree, are there worse things....... Yep...
> You are correct that even two good OFA's can make a dysplastic ...


I was looking at rojo's pedigree and I can't find hip info on his parents nor his granparents. Where they checked ?


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Nope they were not she did not do hips... He did perlim and he did OFA good so what is the question? most of the reds have pretty sketchy backgrounds as far as testing is concerned. That is why it is so important to make sure that going forward we are doing all that we can do ...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you Thestars for the information on the milkthistle. Good to know when I have a geriatric here.

I will not deny I took an educated gamble but thankfully it pâid off. In the future though, I will not repeat this action. Betty-Jo and Jenny will not be bred until well past their second birthday and all testing is completed. I will not use Flynn or my other boy until they are two as well.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Good for you Arreau...... We all learn as we go along .. Everyone does.... And it is good to hear that !!!!!!We never stop learning.....


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I was looking at rojo's pedigree and I can't find hip info on his parents nor his granparents. Where they checked ?


Where can i find Enzo's pedigree? I am not sure I know what his registered name is ? Just curious..  Is he on poodlepedigree?


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

cbrand said:


> So no... lower COI does not necessarily mean healthier dogs. COI is simply another piece of the puzzle to consider when breeding.


I think that's exactly it. COI is yet another thing to consider when looking at breeding, along with health testing, temperament, conformation and all the other myriad factors that have to be considered!

The breeder I am considering getting a mini from is thinking about breeding what I consider to be a pretty tight line breeding for her next litter. While I am going to question what the COI is, I am also for the most part going to follow her lead on this. I know she is far more knowledgeable about poodles than I am and is putting a lot of energy into finding the right stud for her girl. If she's happy the pairing will produce healthy puppies, then I'm happy to trust her.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> Where can i find Enzo's pedigree? I am not sure I know what his registered name is ? Just curious..  Is he on poodlepedigree?


Yes its on poodlepedigree online. Its the same pedigree as Bijou's oliver nothing but BYB dogs behind him and only a little bit of test where done that is why I found it funny that a certain breeder said her dogs come from good lines when Enzo did not come from good lines LOL

I was only asking about rojo because you seem to be concerned with Duncan's ped filled with fair hips and rojo has no hips tested behind him whats the difference really ? IMO there is none.

All you can do is health test and breed up from what you started with


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Yes its on poodlepedigree online. Its the same pedigree as Bijou's oliver


Could you post the link. I can't seem to find it.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Could you post the link. I can't seem to find it.


O sorry Cbrand I did not know that was not Oilvers registered name. 

Here is Enzos 
http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=372116

Here is Oliver's Well they are half brothers I did not notice the dam was different . But they came from the same breeder

http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=374778

Take note of how low Enzo's COI is .... means nada to me at this point


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> O sorry Cbrand I did not know that was not Oilvers registered name.
> 
> Here is Enzos
> http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=372116
> ...


cool thanks so much !


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Yes its on poodlepedigree online. Its the same pedigree as Bijou's oliver nothing but BYB dogs behind him and only a little bit of test where done that is why I found it funny that a certain breeder said her dogs come from good lines when Enzo did not come from good lines LOL
> 
> I was only asking about rojo because you seem to be concerned with Duncan's ped filled with fair hips and rojo has no hips tested behind him whats the difference really ? IMO there is none.
> 
> All you can do is health test and breed up from what you started with


The dogs name is Dugan and I happen to *own his brothe*r So yes it is definately my concern. Thanks for your input tho . Not throwing stones at all I bought Art because of the *Rave reviews* that I heard about Dugan , I was told that his hips had OFA"d excellant even tho I could not find it anywhere.. So Ke sara sara eh ?...Boy that bit me eh? 
No fair is not the end of the world what concerns me is *all the fair* that is back there.. I will definitely not line breed back to that stuff....


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> The dogs name is Dugan and I happen to *own his brothe*r So yes it is definately my concern. Thanks for your input tho . Not throwing stones at all I bought Art because of the *Rave reviews* that I heard about Dugan , I was told that his hips had OFA"d excellant even tho I could not find it anywhere.. So Ke sara sara eh ?...Boy that bit me eh?
> No fair is not the end of the world what concerns me is *all the fair* that is back there.. I will definitely not line breed back to that stuff....



Sorry, that was me. I read Dugan as Duncan. :fish:

So is there testing behind Art and Dugan? I did not see any on OFA but sometimes the trail gets broken and it can be hard to pick up again.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Sorry, that was me. I read Dugan as Duncan. :fish:
> 
> So is there testing behind Art and Dugan? I did not see any on OFA but sometimes the trail gets broken and it can be hard to pick up again.


Not that I can find ! And it looks as though what is there is pretty sketchy


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> The dogs name is Dugan and I happen to *own his brothe*r So yes it is definately my concern. Thanks for your input tho . Not throwing stones at all I bought Art because of the *Rave reviews* that I heard about Dugan , I was told that his hips had OFA"d excellant even tho I could not find it anywhere.. So Ke sara sara eh ?...Boy that bit me eh?
> No fair is not the end of the world what concerns me is *all the fair* that is back there.. I will definitely not line breed back to that stuff....


No problem I was just trying to figure out what was the big deal lol


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> No problem I was just trying to figure out what was the big deal lol


Thats okay no problem ....Now you know


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Where did you find all the fair test results in their background...I have never even looked up Palmares testing because I have been told by numerous people that Palmares doesn`t test anymore because all of their dogs go back to the same two dogs, who tested in the top 90th percentile for Pennhip. Fair is a pass, so I would not be worried about that as long as you breed to good or excellent and you check the other dogs background.

I told you in the past that Dugans hips had been xrayed, not OFA`d and that the vet said they were the best hips he had seen. He has since been OFA`d and they were good. His hips are not a problem. Hollys have been OVCd and they passed. So, I am not worried about ther hips at all. Of course while planning for the future of my girls, who I choose to breed them to will depend on the girls results, then the results of the males we pick. If they tested fair, which I highly doubt, then we would be looking for good or excellent to breed to..


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Where did you find all the fair test results in their background...I have never even looked up Palmares testing because I have been told by numerous people that Palmares doesn`t test anymore because all of their dogs go back to the same two dogs, who tested in the top 90th percentile for Pennhip. Fair is a pass, so I would not be worried about that as long as you breed to good or excellent and you check the other dogs background.
> 
> I told you in the past that Dugans hips had been xrayed, not OFA`d and that the vet said they were the best hips he had seen. He has since been OFA`d and they were good. His hips are not a problem. Hollys have been OVCd and they passed. So, I am not worried about ther hips at all. Of course while planning for the future of my girls, who I choose to breed them to will depend on the girls results, then the results of the males we pick. If they tested fair, which I highly doubt, then we would be looking for good or excellent to breed to..


Poodle health registry ....Look there..


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> Poodle health registry ....Look there..


I see good hips ? I am confused ? I hope i am reading it right the green hip scores are of the actual dog in the pedigree the orange is saying this dog has produced fair hips, its not saying the dog has hair hips. I hope that makes sense.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I see good hips ? I am confused ? I hope i am reading it right the green hip scores are of the actual dog in the pedigree the orange is saying this dog has produced fair hips, its not saying the dog has hair hips. I hope that makes sense.


Lots of fairs have been produced ..


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

There is way more good than fair and most of the offspring (the vast majority) have parented good hips rather than fair hips. I do not see anything bad here at all!! I am confused too!!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> Lots of fairs have been produced ..


You said you where scared of all the fair hips back there in his pedigree and I don't see any , producing fair is another story since the different dams where used you will have to look into who the dog was bred to and see whats on the dams side as well. 

I just clicked on vertical pedigree I also see a lot of good hips produced, but a lot of the offspring where not tested at all.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> There is way more good than fair and most of the offspring (the vast majority) have parented good hips rather than fair hips. I do not see anything bad here at all!! I am confused too!!


LOL that makes two of us hwell:

BRP I hope you don't believe a dog must produced only excellent to good hips on ever puppy produced. I don't think that is possible. ( just from me looking at peds on both PHR and poodlepedigree)


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I don't understand why producing fair hips is even an issue. There are a lot of environmental factors that play into hips as well and if these dogs are tested at 2 years of age they have been owned by someone for 2 years. Who knows how they were raised? Besides fair is passing.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I see good hips ? I am confused ? I hope i am reading it right the green hip scores are of the actual dog in the pedigree the orange is saying this dog has produced fair hips, its not saying the dog has hair hips. I hope that makes sense.


Fantastic then  I just know from what I see I plan to be very careful.. That is all...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

KPoos said:


> I don't understand why producing fair hips is even an issue. There are a lot of environmental factors that play into hips as well and if these dogs are tested at 2 years of age they have been owned by someone for 2 years. Who knows how they were raised? Besides fair is passing.


Yessiree...Totally and entirely agree with you Kpoos. And from what I see, there is not sketchy health testing in the background. It would be awesome to think thast there is a huge selection of red stud dogs out there with excellent hips, but that just is not the case, but fair and good, when good is the majority is not to be sneezed at.

Anyhow...


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Yessiree...Totally and entirely agree with you Kpoos. And from what I see, there is not sketchy health testing in the background. It would be awesome to think thast there is a huge selection of red stud dogs out there with excellent hips, but that just is not the case, but fair and good, when good is the majority is not to be sneezed at.
> 
> Anyhow...



I agree with Kspoo as well.

I would be careful with Rojo as well since he has nothing tested in his pedigree really and has a High COI. That's if you care about COI with your breeding program.

Enzo has a low COi like I said but he also has no health testing done in his pedigree either. I find it sad that pass red breeders did not care about health issues with this color. I bet they figured since they where breeding up from mini's that the dogs would be healthier :wacko:


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Where did you find all the fair test results in their background...I have never even looked up Palmares testing because I have been told by numerous people that Palmares doesn`t test anymore because all of their dogs go back to the same two dogs, who tested in the top 90th percentile for Pennhip.


Ok...really? 

But even that doesn't take into account the lack of testing like VWB, SA, CERF, or Thyroid.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Ok...really?
> 
> But even that doesn't take into account the lack of testing like VWB, SA, CERF, or Thyroid.


I agree it seems like some hips are done and these passed breeder did not care to test for anything else hwell:


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I agree with Kspoo as well.
> 
> I would be careful with Rojo as well since he has nothing tested in his pedigree really and has a High COI. That's if you care about COI with your breeding program.
> 
> Enzo has a low COi like I said but he also has no health testing done in his pedigree either. I find it sad that pass red breeders did not care about health issues with this color. I bet they figured since they where breeding up from mini's that the dogs would be healthier :wacko:


Ahh but this dog has tested "*Clear for everything*" So obviously some testing was done somewhere, right? Before you speak you should really check...This is not confusing at all.....This dog was not in question as his hips are *OFA* good and almost all ancestors and their offspring are good. :doh: There is no confusion here. And I do plan to be VERY careful as is evidenced by all the testing. You *will find* a higher coi in line bred dogs this is just fact.. I have certainly seen worse....Chances are very good that this dog will hold his color and if carefully done his offspring will too....But this is just IMHO


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Yessiree...Totally and entirely agree with you Kpoos. And from what I see, there is not sketchy health testing in the background. It would be awesome to think thast there is a huge selection of red stud dogs out there with excellent hips, but that just is not the case, but fair and good, when good is the majority is not to be sneezed at.
> 
> Anyhow...


FYI This that you are looking at is* NOT *health testing BTW it is hip certs. :doh: I see no health testing at all....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> FYI This that you are looking at is* NOT *health testing BTW it is hip certs. :doh: I see no health testing at all....


If I am not mistaken, it was YOU who began the discussion on hips.

You said that Dugans background was riddled with sketchy testing and bad hip results. So, we went on to PHR and checked, and found that nearly all of the hip testing results were good with some fairs (which IS a pass). Now you are saying that there is no health testing in the background, so we will certainly look into this too. But if this turns out to be true, then we will thank God for these two glorious dogs, who have gone on to produce healthy, beautiful offspring who have remarkable temperaments, and who happen to be blessed with the deepest mahogany coat most breeders have ever seen. Good practices and health testing has to start somewhere, and if your statement is indeed factual, then they have. Right here. With two tested, fabulous dogs who produce healthy, happy, beautiful progeny.

Dugan has been tested, with his results posted on OFA, and now his background is supposedly sketchy. Holly has been tested, but because her results are not posted on the internet, you have questioned their vailidity. Even though they were done by an accredited, reknowned facilty, and even though I have stated many times that I will fax her results and cerificates to anyone interested in purchasing a puppy from me. I cannot get over how many times I have had to defend my dogs or their offspring because of something you have brought up. What is it exactly that you want from me...(other than me falling off the face of the earth). I am in this for the long haul, with plans three years into the future, with the hope of constantly making improvements with each generation to the quality of the reds. When I am dead and gone, Trillium will be taking on the Arreau name and with the mentorship of my best breeding friend, will continue to breed wonderful, healthy puppies and making every effort to continue to improve on every generation of pups produced that carry the Arreau name.

I am very sorry if this sounds personal, but it IS personal. I find it very sad that in your efforts to discredit me, my dogs and my practices, you have now begun discrediting your own. Dugan and your Art are litter brothers, so while you are putting down the beautiful father to my last two litters, you are insulting your own dog!! No matter what thread I choose to post in, you come on there, generally, trying to bring question to what I am doing or to what I am saying. I am tried of defending my actions, practices and dogs because of you.

None of us, regardless of the colour we choose to breed, is ever going to find the PERFECT pedigree, or health testing in our backgrounds that has all PERFECT results. So it is up to us to make every effort to health test, breed dogs who produce low COIs, find dogs to breed our own to who bring something to the table where ours might be lacking, research until our eyes hurt, to continually improve, improve, improve.

It seems that there is so much disdain and nastiness amongst some breeders, that even if someone were to actually produce the perfect puppy, some might opt to not use it to service their females or to buy a puppy from its offspring to make improvements to their own lines because better to shoot themselves in the foot than to admit someone else is getting it right. If this attitude does not change, and the hostilty and ugliness that is taking place between some breeders does not ease, then this wonderful colour, and all of the efforts to improve it will be for naught. If people are going to refuse to admit that their adversary is getting quality puppies and begin to include them in their own breeding program, then we will be back to where we were four or five years ago, with lots of people breeding them because red is the hot colour, with no regard to the quality of the puppies being produced or their health. Just a whole lot of people breeding them for the sake of producing puppies to satisfy the pet market with the odd breeder trying to make headway and improvements. But with the gene pool so small in the reds, and the hostility and ugliness amongst some of the breeders of reds, I can see this colour becoming extinct in the not too distant future if communications between breeders, and hostilities, do not improve. 

I cannot for the life of me figure out how or why this thread went from COIs from way back when to my dogs, puppies and their sire being questioned, yet again. This thread was begun with a happy heart, because my co-owner, Trillium, was finally able to track down the pedigree of her first, beloved Standard Poodle and in doing so, we were able to find information on most of the dogs I grew up with, confirming to me what I believe to be true. That low COIs help produce puppies that are healthier and have more longevity than puppies born with high COIs. But somehow, it has (again) been turned into something which has me defending my dogs and their offspring, even though their COIs are less than 4%. I am really getting tired of this.

I have decided to not post any new threads except for photos of my puppies. I will be here if anyone would like to ask me something. I will be here to share my knowledge with newbies if they would like to private message me, and I will certainly be here to ensure, AND defend myself AGAIN if someone is posting misinformation about my dogs, their puppies, or my practices. I did not join this forum to have every single thing nitpicked about or to be bi****d at every time I post something. This forum is a wonderful place to learn and educate. Keep up the great work! 

In the meantime, I wish everyone on the forum a joy filled Christmas, and a new year that sees all of youe hopes and dreams come to fruition!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Can I just ask a quick question? Why do you just HAVE to breed a red to a red? Can you not get reds from a red to black breeding? Wouldn't it make more sense to find a really nice quality black with really fabulous conformation to compliment whatever bitch you are breeding and worry about color secondary? You will get reds from a red to black breeding and you will know without a doubt that the dog will pass on good traits to it's offspring if you research lines and pedigrees well.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> Ahh but this dog has tested "*Clear for everything*" So obviously some testing was done somewhere, right? Before you speak you should really check...This is not confusing at all.....This dog was not in question as his hips are *OFA* good and almost all ancestors and their offspring are good. :doh: There is no confusion here. And I do plan to be VERY careful as is evidenced by all the testing. You *will find* a higher coi in line bred dogs this is just fact.. I have certainly seen worse....Chances are very good that this dog will hold his color and if carefully done his offspring will too....But this is just IMHO


Why are you being so defensive ? I did not say rojo did not pass his health testing .......:rolffleyes: I am not confused about Rojo I am confused at the fact you are saying stuff about Arts pedigree when Rojo also does not have health testing behind him. You make it sound like there is a difference there, really there is not ,you have to do is health test Art as you did rojo and hope for the pest in your future breedings. 

I thought this was a discussion of COI then hips got thrown into the mix. I feel if you are going to talk about someone else dogs you should not feel threaten that some one can look up your breeding dogs info and post about it. I don't think its fair how you nick pick at someone else breeding dogs when in fact you guys have the same bloodline and problem( pedigree is not heath tested completely) 

I posted Enzo's pedigree I am not ashamed or embarrassed by it ......... It is what is is all we can do is hope for the best on his testing.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Can I just ask a quick question? Why do you just HAVE to breed a red to a red? Can you not get reds from a red to black breeding? Wouldn't it make more sense to find a really nice quality black with really fabulous conformation to compliment whatever bitch you are breeding and worry about color secondary? You will get reds from a red to black breeding and you will know without a doubt that the dog will pass on good traits to it's offspring if you research lines and pedigrees well.


ABSOLUTEY!!! This is a brilliant idea that everyone talks about but nobody seems to put into practice. I think a lot of red breeders are terrified they may get a lot of black puppies, which are a harder sell, because there are more of them being bred.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> ABSOLUTEY!!! This is a brilliant idea that everyone talks about but nobody seems to put into practice. I think a lot of red breeders are terrified they may get a lot of black puppies, which are a harder sell, because there are more of them being bred.


I now this is totally of subject now but I agree. Some red breeder told me they would never breed outside the color because they feel blacks or any other color they bred the reds to will bring in diseases...... I am not sure how that conclusion came up since 90% of red poodles pedigrees are not from tested stock.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, I guess my next comment would be if you can't sell black puppies then you are breeding for the wrong reasons because most often litters are presold before they are even 2 weeks old. If you are marketing to people wanting just color then you will never improve your lines because you will have to continue to breed for color instead of conformation and health.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> Well, I guess my next comment would be if you can't sell black puppies then you are breeding for the wrong reasons because most often litters are presold before they are even 2 weeks old. If you are marketing to people wanting just color then you will never improve your lines because you will have to continue to breed for color instead of conformation and health.


I totally agree !


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Why are you being so defensive ? I did not say rojo did not pass his health testing .......:rolffleyes: I am not confused about Rojo I am confused at the fact you are saying stuff about Arts pedigree when Rojo also does not have health testing behind him. You make it sound like there is a difference there really is not all you have to do is health test Art as you did rojo and hope for the pest in your future breedings.
> 
> I thought this was a discussion of COI then hips got thrown into the mix. I feel if you are going to talk about someone else dogs you should not feel threaten that some one can look up your breeding dogs info and post about it. I don't think its fair how you nick pick at someone else breeding dogs when in fact you guys have the same bloodline and problem( pedigree is not heath tested completely)
> 
> I posted Enzo's pedigree I am not ashamed or embarrassed by it ......... It is what is is all we can do is hope for the best on his testing.


We were discussing coi I thought and the fact that low coi is better that high coi i am sorry i was not trying to pick on anyone .. MY BAD!!!!My stuff is posted everywhere for anyone to see,


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> We were discussing coi I thought and the fact that low coi is better that high coi i am sorry i was not trying to pick on anyone .. MY BAD!!!!My stuff is posted everywhere for anyone to see,


No I don't agree that low is better than high this is why I said this "That's if you care about COI with your breeding program"

If you are not into low COI do not worry about it........


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Me too. |And if a buyer is only interested in owning a deep deep red pup, and that is their only concern, we shouldn't be selling to them in the first place!! Doga are not accessories oor a purse that should match your outfit, and if colour is your only concern, you should not own a dog!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> No I don't agree that low is better than high this is why I said this "That's if you care about COI with your breeding program"
> 
> If you are not into low COI do not worry about it........


Of course I care about coi But I also care about pedigrees and what is behind the dog. That was what was being pointed out, Not picking on anyone or anyones dog information being shared is all... Sorry if I offended anyone No testing other that hips cardiac and color done on Art yet These were my main concerns. I would love to see the teting done on Arts pedigree as it would save me a bunch of time and money. The lady that bred Rojo *did do *testing, she had her own breeding program and many of the dogs were clear by parentage. . I was *generalizing *that the reds were scketchy and not pointing fingers I am not sure why this got taken personal????.....B]WOWWEE we are sensitive about this subject (I guess and will not longer participate? ) As I said before not aimed at Arreau or Dugan or Art just a good example of Coi and the fact that it is a piece in the puzzle , and Rojo is another example, high COI but lots of good testing back there, plus the fact that he is clear..... . I guess I am just not good at explaining myself.. Not defensive at all  Please accept my collective apology  hwell:


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> Of course I care about coi But I also care about pedigrees and what is behind the dog. That was what was being pointed out, Not picking on anyone or anyones dog information being shared is all... Sorry if I offended anyone No testing other that hips cardiac and color done on Art yet These were my main concerns. I would love to see the teting done on Arts pedigree as it would save me a bunch of time and money. The lady that bred Rojo *did do *testing, she had her own breeding program and many of the dogs were clear by parentage. . I was *generalizing *that the reds were scketchy and not pointing fingers I am not sure why this got taken personal????.....B]WOWWEE we are sensitive about this subject (I guess and will not longer participate? ) As I said before not aimed at Arreau or Dugan or Art just a good example of Coi and the fact that it is a piece in the puzzle , and Rojo is another example, high COI but lots of good testing back there, plus the fact that he is clear..... . I guess I am just not good at explaining myself.. Not defensive at all  Please accept my collective apology  hwell:


Even if the lady who bred rojo did the testing I don't see it any where online. Isn't vWD the only test people say clear by parentage ? 

I am sorry I just do not trust breeders anymore on their word I would like to see evidence of this testing if I where buying a dog from a breeder that did not have her dogs on OFA or any other reputable testing site. I called up a few breeders I found in Enzo's pedigree and they said their dogs where tested , I asked for proof and never heard from them again.......

You don't Have to say sorry to me lol


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Even if the lady who bred rojo did the testing I don't see it any where online. Isn't vWD the only test people say clear by parentage ?
> 
> I am sorry I just do not trust breeders anymore on their word I would like to see evidence of this testing if I where buying a dog from a breeder that did not have her dogs on OFA or any other reputable testing site. I called up a few breeders I found in Enzo's pedigree and they said their dogs where tested , I asked for proof and never heard from them again.......
> 
> You don't Have to say sorry to me lol


Ok good it sounded like I had offended you too Shhez I thought it was important to point out pedigree as well as COI but I guess not ? Anyway I too feel like it is important for all to see health testing posted But way back that was not an option I guess? but then that was another thread Man that got heated too did it not.. NE is another by parentage. However I believe that every other generation should be tested But then that is jjust me..


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

This is why I'm so incredibly reluctant to even consider a red puppy. It seems like all red breeders use the excuse that it's a new/rare color to get away w/ things that would never fly in another color like black or silver. What is so horrible about waiting 10 months to breed a litter? Why is it okay to breed dogs when 90% of their pedigrees aren't fully tested? Since when is "that color won't sell" a good reason to sacrifice confirmation and health? And to think these pups are often priced higher b/c of their color when they are a much bigger risk.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> This is why I'm so incredibly reluctant to even consider a red puppy. It seems like all red breeders use the excuse that it's a new/rare color to get away w/ things that would never fly in another color like black or silver. What is so horrible about waiting 10 months to breed a litter? Why is it okay to breed dogs when 90% of their pedigrees aren't fully tested? Since when is "that color won't sell" a good reason to sacrifice confirmation and health? And to think these pups are often priced higher b/c of their color when they are a much bigger risk.


Not all of the red breeders, but certainly a lot of them.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> This is why I'm so incredibly reluctant to even consider a red puppy. It seems like all red breeders use the excuse that it's a new/rare color to get away w/ things that would never fly in another color like black or silver. What is so horrible about waiting 10 months to breed a litter? Why is it okay to breed dogs when 90% of their pedigrees aren't fully tested? Since when is "that color won't sell" a good reason to sacrifice confirmation and health? And to think these pups are often priced higher b/c of their color when they are a much bigger risk.


Lets see if I can explain it. The reds are fairly new color. Having been around since the 80"s So with that being said. i cannot excuse away the fact that there was not alot of testing done, perhaps it was done , but it is difficult to find as the online stuff did not happen until the last ten years really.... So I purchased a scanner for this exact reason... . But going forth at least with my dogs they are all being tested for everything that is a concern, and this is from the ground on up as I feel like I am on the ground floor with no testing behind me at least with some not all...... . So in general Yes you will pay a higher price as this is all going on in the background. Color cannot guarantee health. That is for sure. COI cannot guarnatee health . Only the breeder that you choose to buy from can guarantee health.. Look for testing and look for someone that can give you a good feeling ...i am just passionate about the reds.. I have silver and a Cream at home never had the desire to breed until I saw the reds....Must go back to my irish setter roots.....
As time goes on and all the testing is behind us. Then the price will surely come down . We feel like it all about the home and carefully screen each person .....


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## cash (Aug 7, 2009)

Forgive me if I am just ignorant, but are you are saying that a Red Standard Poodle should be priced higher than another color, say black or white, because of the testing? Shouldn't any breeder be doing all the same testing? If not is it because they are "cleared by parentage"? If this is the case, which tests can be "cleared by parentage and how much should this really affect the cost of a puppy?


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

cash said:


> Forgive me if I am just ignorant, but are you are saying that a Red Standard Poodle should be priced higher than another color, say black or white, because of the testing? Shouldn't any breeder be doing all the same testing? If not is it because they are "cleared by parentage"? If this is the case, which tests can be "cleared by parentage and how much should this really affect the cost of a puppy?


Well when all the testing is having to be done as in the red I can say that prices will go along with that yes... I have no idea what other breeders are charging . This was a red poodle question that i was answering.. Not a poodle quesion in general... And no it is not an ignorant question. I just know that what I base my prices on . I do not have SET price on puppies it is based on y expenses with the litter..... Does that make sense? God I hope so  i seem to not be real good at explaining lately ....I work full time and breed one litter a year perhaps two if an accident happens god forbid.. I know it is hard to understand. But my puppies go to the vet for tails and dews and shots and worming So perhaps mine will be higher than someone that does all this at home...No matter what the color...In my breeding program I am spending a huge amount on testing.. And my dogs are red...


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

What tests are you doing and at what ages? Also are you gearing your breeding program towards color or is your overall goal to improve and finish some red standards because they aren't a very good lot (red standards in general). I would think that if you have a love of one color of a breed that's fine but you need to base your breeding program around improving that color even IF you have to breed to black and get black puppies. If you have to wait and plan out a litter for 2 years in order to ensure you have homes for the black puppies that will pop up, it's worth it because you are going to improve the conformation and health of the reds. Isn't that what's most important? 

From what I've seen in tracing some of the red lines, many go back to BYB or mills and honestly if you are asking over $800-1000 for a puppy you are asking too much unless you are physically showing or paying someone to show it for you because let's face it, the dogs need improvement in conformation and in order to do that you must go before judges and other handlers so that you can breed with the best of the best. That's just my opinion. There is too much risk when majority of a pedigree isn't tested even IF you are testing your dogs and most of the dogs aren't show quality in reds. Most red breeders recognize this and hopefully if they care about keeping the color around will do what it takes to improve those lines.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

> In my breeding program I am spending a huge amount on testing..


Wouldnt you be spending the same amount on testing as Any other (color) good breeder? As far as i know, they are all poodles, so they all need the same tests done to be bred and proven healthy.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

YEP you are correct...


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigpoodleperson said:


> Wouldnt you be spending the same amount on testing as Any other (color) good breeder? As far as i know, they are all poodles, so they all need the same tests done to be bred and proven healthy.


It's all the same price. Red, black, white, cream, silver, parti, vets don't charge more for one color verses the other.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

> YEP you are correct...





> So in general Yes you will pay a higher price as this is all going on in the background


My point is why you think reds need to be at a higher price then other health tested colors. Good breeders of other colors put in the same amout of work and testing as red breeders.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

bigpoodleperson said:


> My point is why you think reds need to be at a higher price then other health tested colors. Good breeders of other colors put in the same amout of work and testing as red breeders.


I have not done a survey as to what other breeders are charging how would I know if mine are higher. ????? I base my prices on the cost of the litter period. Does that answer your question? i travel one way 5 hours to test. The vet does everything for me and for my babies....They are miicrochipped Does that count? I am not really understanding why this is such an issue?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

What kinds of tests are you doing? Hips are done every 2 years and the rest should be done annually. How often are you breeding a litter?


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## cash (Aug 7, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Lets see if I can explain it. The reds are fairly new color. Having been around since the 80"s So with that being said. i cannot excuse away the fact that there was not alot of testing done, perhaps it was done , but it is difficult to find as the online stuff did not happen until the last ten years really.... So I purchased a scanner for this exact reason... . But going forth at least with my dogs they are all being tested for everything that is a concern, and this is from the ground on up as I feel like I am on the ground floor with no testing behind me at least with some not all...... . *So in general Yes you will pay a higher price as this is all going on in the background*. Color cannot guarantee health. That is for sure. COI cannot guarnatee health . Only the breeder that you choose to buy from can guarantee health.. Look for testing and look for someone that can give you a good feeling ...i am just passionate about the reds.. I have silver and a Cream at home never had the desire to breed until I saw the reds....Must go back to my irish setter roots.....
> *As time goes on and all the testing is behind us. Then the price will surely come down .* We feel like it all about the home and carefully screen each person .....



I just was, and still am not sure what you are implying by the two bolded statements. I am not interested in the actual cost of your, or anybody elses puppies as I am not looking for one right now and would never ask specific price in a forum, but in these two statements I believe you are saying that because of having to do health testing Red puppies should cost more than other colors. And that once more testing has been done on Red standard poodles the cost of purchasing a Red puppy will drop. I am just looking for clairification on these two statements. I am not trying to start a debate or anything and am only trying to learn. What testing would you no longer have to do once a Red line has been health tested for a few generations? Also, are those tests really that expensive that it would make a big, really noticable differenct in the cost of a Red puppy. Are there tests that are done on Reds that are not necessary on other colors that would make other colors less expensive to purchase, in your opinion. Thanks!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

cash said:


> I just was, and still am not sure what you are implying by the two bolded statements. I am not interested in the actual cost of your, or anybody elses puppies as I am not looking for one right now and would never ask specific price in a forum, but in these two statements I believe you are saying that because of having to do health testing Red puppies should cost more than other colors. And that once more testing has been done on Red standard poodles the cost of purchasing a Red puppy will drop. I am just looking for clairification on these two statements. I am not trying to start a debate or anything and am only trying to learn. What testing would you no longer have to do once a Red line has been health tested for a few generations? Also, are those tests really that expensive that it would make a big, really noticable differenct in the cost of a Red puppy. Are there tests that are done on Reds that are not necessary on other colors that would make other colors less expensive to purchase, in your opinion. Thanks!


i am sorry but the more I answer the worse this gets. I am not good at explaining obviously. So I have explained all that I can I am not sure what the question really is here. Why does it matter the price I ask for my puppies i guess what the question is really why am I having to justify what I charge? 
So I think I will bow out Because I just cannot answer to anyones satisfaction and I truly having hard time understanding where all this is coming from ? I do the best I can take very good care of my dogs produce very healthy puppies and carefully screen where they go.. i fell like I am in court under suspision of something Geesh ...


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## cash (Aug 7, 2009)

I'm sorry you feel this way, I, as a person new to poodles, was only trying to fully understand what you wrote.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

> i am sorry but the more I answer the worse this gets. I am not good at explaining obviously. So I have explained all that I can I am not sure what the question really is here. Why does it matter the price I ask for my puppies i guess what the question is really why am I having to justify what I charge?
> So I think I will bow out Because I just cannot answer to anyones satisfaction and I truly having hard time understanding where all this is coming from ? I do the best I can take very good care of my dogs produce very healthy puppies and carefully screen where they go.. i fell like I am in court under suspision of something Geesh ...



Im sorry you feel that way. Its hard to convey tone in written word. I personally think a breeder should be willing to defend and explain the aspects of their program. I dont think we are asking you any different questions then we would ask other breeders. Im sorry if it feels like a personal attack.


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