# Need behavior help



## MericoX (Apr 19, 2009)

Are people already petting her when she barks and lunges, or coming at her with hand outstretched?


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

MericoX said:


> Are people already petting her when she barks and lunges, or coming at her with hand outstretched?


They are already petting her. She lets them pet her for about 15 to 30 seconds before she barks and lunges.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Scoots said:


> Tessa's been with us for almost 3 months now (we adopted her from the previous owner through the breeder) and is a two and a half year old Spoo. Last week we took her camping and she was exposed to a lot of strangers and we discovered a very disturbing/odd behavior. She got a lot of attention from people because she's a beautiful dog. People would approach and she'd stand calmly and erect and they'd let her sniff their hand. Then they'd start to pet her and she'd continue to stand still for about thirty seconds, then she'd suddenly bark and lunge. I have no idea if she's playing or trying to bite because it would happen so fast and we'd just react and pull her back. It was a bit scary. She's growled at new people before, but someone told us that's not necessarily threatening, but we have always warned people that she's a bit skittish.


I would say that this behavior is motivated by fear and general lack of confidence. The tip off for me was how you described her holding her body: she'd stand calmly and erect. 

My Poodles, who love people, are all wiggly-butt happy to meet new people. Delilah will drive between people's legs in the hopes that they will rub her shaved areas and Sabrina leans into people. If anything I have had to teach the girls an Obedience Stand so that they don't bowl people over with their exuberance to be petted.

I have seen Poodles as you described. Rather than being calm they are actually tense and stiff. When the pressure gets too great, they lash out. Unfortunately the barking and lunging is affective because it gets people to back off, thus eliminating the source of stress. If she has done it more than once, it may have become an ingrained behavior. This will make it harder to retrain.

Growling at new people is always threatening. I would not wait for an obedience class. This is a behavior issue. She could easily end up biting someone. I would not let people in public pet her until you have her evaluated.

BTW.... this is most likely not related to being mistreated and more an case of a sharp-shy temperament.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I absolutely agree with cbrand - she is giving out strong, canine signals saying "Please keep away, I am uncomfortable", and eventually escalating to growls and lunges when those are the only way to get her message across. Look at the way she stands. Does she turn her head away? Flick her tongue? Freeze for a fraction of a second? All tiny signals another dog would read, but that we humans tend to miss. 

Look for a behaviourist that uses only positive, reward based methods - any harsh or confrontational treatment will just make the fear - and hence the behaviour - worse. 

Patricia McConnell's little booklet "The cautious canine" may be a good place to start. It should not be too hard to get her through it, if her basic temperament is sound, but don't let it get repeatedly reinforced by putting her in the situation where she has to scare people away - or, even worse, force her into contact she does not want. It does sound far more like a shy temperament and inadequate socialisation than any ill-treatment.


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

Thanks so much for the suggestions. I'm going to track down that Patricia McConnell book. *cbrand - what is "sharp shy temperament"*? 

The hardest part is that people just do NOT listen. Every time we were approached, after the first time she did the bark and lunge, I would tell people that they could pet Theo, as he is a big teddy bear, but that Tessa was new to us and nervous of people, so we were being a bit cautious with her. People would still approach her and try to pet her, even when she'd start to growl a bit and we would try to correct her. It drove me crazy! One lady even followed us down the beach, trying to take a picture of her, and was obviously making Tessa uncomfortable. We didn't exactly correct her that time, when she started to growl and bark at her. :

The other issue we have with Tessa is the continuous barking at people walking by our house. We were advised by one breeder that female poodles wouldn't bark and be protective of the house in that way or run to the door barking when the doorbell rang. Ummm, not Tessa! Our hardwood floor in front of the window and near our front door is all scratched up from her going ballistic when people come to the door or walk by the house. Is this all part of that "sharp-shy temperament"?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I do know what you mean about people not listening - a small boy was teasing Poppy today. He was pretending to be a monster, making machine gun noises at her, and running around. He was with his father and two dogs, so you would have thought his father would have recognised the signs of a young dog getting anxious and over excited, but no, he seemed oblivious. I called Poppy away, they followed us. I put her on her lead - the child crowded her from behind, still pretending to shoot at her. In the end I quietly asked him not to frighten her, as she was young and didn't understand - and the child promptly burst into tears, so I was the one that ended up feeling guilty!

On the barking - try giving her something else to do. I call Poppy to me for a game or a cuddle, which distracts her. Warning barking at everything does seem to be a phase pups go through, but as she is older perhaps it is something she learned in her previous home. Or perhaps no one walked past there, so it is all new to her. Either way, I would quietly acknowledge that there is someone out there, in a "So what?" tone, and then find her something else to do. Ballistic is not good - it smacks of frustration - perhaps some frustration control exercises (Wait, Leave it, etc) may be helpful, too.


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

Google is not my friend. I just googled sharp-shy temperament and most of the sites said that it is not a fixable characteristic. I feel sick and heartbroken as she is a sweet, lovely girl with us in our home and the thought that she is "broken" and there's nothing we can do to help her feel more confident and relaxed makes me feel awful for her and for us.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Google can be very frightening. Find a good, recommended behaviourist and see what they advise. If she is relaxed and loving at home you are already half way there, and slow, gentle socialisation may make a huge difference. I am sure there is a great deal you can do to help her become more relaxed and confident - starting by simply stepping between her and whoever/whatever is making her nervous. It works amazingly well for my neighbour's little terrier, who can be reactive around other dogs. Don't start from the assumption this is a problem that can't be fixed - a dog may be born with a shy or fearful nature, but nurture can do a great deal to ameliorate things.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

You need to control her environment better, and until you can get some *professional* help with her fear issues, shield her from the things that are setting her off. Be firmer with people about not petting her. My guess is that a behavioralist will help you work up very gradually to having a stranger pet her, but she is a long way from being ready for that. And in the house, try to deaden some of the stimuli that are setting her off--block the front windows and door glass, and put her in a quiet back room when you are not there. You may also want to tether her to you so that she can't go tearing off to the door. Right now she is getting a lot of opportunity to rehearse behaviors you don't want. 

I would consult a professional behavioralist to help you. Google Jean Donaldson or Brenda Acuff for some good written stuff on dealing with a fearful, reactive dog. See the thread from a few days ago on the dog who didn't want to go for a walk--I posted some links there on classical conditioning.


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

Has anyone here every dealt with a dog with a sharp-shy temperament? Is this down to breeding? Should I be contacting the breeder? Is it fixable or will we always have to keep her away from strangers and be worried about her biting? One site I read suggested that the best thing for the dog is to euthanize them (which is not even CLOSE to an option for us, as I could never do that), but it shocked me that someone might consider this temperament to be worthy of euthanasia. I guess I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed as I thought this was just a nervous thing for Tessa and she just needed some time and confidence building. I didn't realize it might be a much bigger issue.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Firstly, no one has yet professionally assessed her temperament - you cannot do that online, even with far more information available. From what you have said, she could simply be shy, a very common trait to some extent or another, and not difficult to improve upon. Secondly, she is not reacting to the mere presence of strangers around her, but to quite a heavy degree of "pushing" - to me that sounds as if she is inhibiting her reaction quite well until pushed out of her comfort zone - which is not what one would associate with a dog that would be difficult to work with. Thirdly, take care you are not reading about sharp/shy in the context of sports like Schutzhund or other "bite" work, where it would be a major handicap. Loads of the google hits seem to relate to this.

Poppy is shy - I have had her since she was 19 weeks old, and have worked on socialising her carefully. She is much, much more confident than she was, and will I hope get more and more secure as time goes by. She - like other dogs - barks when someone is at the door, and when she hears unexplained noises outside. I am training her to come to me and to settle, and gradually things are getting quieter.

The reason everyone is advising you to get help for Tessa is not because she is "broken" - it is because fear can get worse if the dog is repeatedly pushed into defending herself, and the defence - barking, growling and even biting - can become established in her mind as the best and quickest way to make the scary thing go away. You need to manage things so that she is not put in the position of being afraid, and if anything frightening to her does come along unexpectedly, you need to react so that she does not need to, while you work out a programme to help her get over her fears. With my neighbour's terrier, this is as simple as putting her on a lead, and keeping the lead slack while making sure to stay between her and the other dog - she relaxes immediately. If Tessa is fearful of strangers, you may need to stay away from crowds, and keep a distance from strangers, while you work on the problem.

I highly recommend Patricia McConnell's little book - partly because it explains the process of counter conditioning very well, but also because, compared to some of the dogs she describes, one's own problems seem comparatively manageable!

One other thought - she does not have any sore or painful spot that could have been touched when people were petting her?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Sharp-shy is a term that refers to a dog who lashes out when afraid. The condition can be mitigated so don't reach for the Sodium Pentothal just yet. 

As has been said, until you get help, you have to keep her and people around her. I would try not to walk her in places where she is threatened by close contact with people. If you do encounter a situation where someone wants to pet her, I would say, "I'm so sorry. We are currently treating our dogs for ring worm. It is a highly contagious skin condition caused by a fungus. Please don't touch our dogs."

Also, as her handler, you have to be the picture of confidence. If you start getting nervous and worried about what she might do, that will only travel down the leash and make her more nervous. I find that in times of stress and possible confusion, the best thing is to get the dog doing something that it knows how to do and that will re-direct the dogs attention away from the thing causing stress. So, bringing a dog into "heel". Asking for a shake. Asking for attention. Asking for a down etc.

In the end though....GET PROFESSIONAL HELP!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

cbrand said:


> Also, as her handler, you have to be the picture of confidence. If you start getting nervous and worried about what she might do, that will only travel down the leash and make her more nervous.


Singing nursery rhymes or Happy Birthday helps, too - anything that helps keep you both relaxed. (Gets you a bit of a reputation locally, of course ... )


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

Thank you, thank you, thank you. My husband is talking about returning her to the breeder already and not wanting to put a lot of money into her if she's not fixable. Even in the short time we've had her, I can't imagine not having her anymore.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Just curious...... why did her 1st family give her up?


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## RebeccaandHolly (Feb 6, 2009)

I just wanted to put my two cents in as the owner of fear aggressive standard. 

I second everyone's suggestion of getting a behaviourist or professional help in for Tessa. It is SO important to have an expert eye look at your dog and evaulate the situation. I got Holly in to see a positive reinforcement trainer and it really really changed everything for us. Yes, it cost money, but totally worth it in the end. She helped me restart the socialization process with Holly in a way that didn't overwhelm her.

Also, Holly and I had a major life change (breakup and moving into new environment) about 6 months ago. I have felt like it's only been the last 2 months that she's actually calming down and not reacting as fearfully to every new person, noise, movement here. It's taken a looooooonnnng time and poodles are very very sensitive dogs. I've really had to learn to say No to people and really learned to read Holly's body language. We've made friends with people in wheelchairs, homeless people, and lots of different people but there still could be someone who's "off" in Holly's book and I watch her closely so she doesn't have to bark or growl--I place myself between her and that person immediately and she knows I've "got it". 

Last, this is a controversial topic but I put Holly on Reconcile which is a puppy prozac to help her calm down a bit when we first moved in. It was a huge help. I do hate telling people my dog's on puppy prozac but it's (to me) a far better alternative than returning her to the breeder.

Hope this helps. Hang in there--there are ways to make this better. 
Rebecca


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I agree with all the wonderful information being given here! 

I just wanted to mention one thing. You mentioned that you are correcting her for growling when you are out. How do you do this? This might be part of the reason why she "suddenly lashes out" at people. If you correct her for growling, which is her warning system, then she has no other way to let peolpe know she is uncomfortable then to bark/lunge/bite. You are suppressing the growling, but not fixing the underlying reason she is growling. I would stop correcting her for growling as it is doing nothing to help. I would instead listen to her when she is growling and try and get her away from the threatening situation until you get in touch with a behaviorist who can tell you what to do next. 

She is not hopeless! She just needs some help.


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

cbrand - the family purchased a restaurant and the wife was going from being a stay at home mom to away fro 16 hours at a time and they felt it would be better for her to find another family. That's what they told us, anyway. I'm wondering if it was a bit of a behaviour issue and they just weren't up front. A lot of stuff that we've learned since has set off some warning bells, especially when I asked why she seemed a little new to being on a leash and was told that she'd never been walked and only went on a leash from the house to the car and from the car to either the vet or the groomer's.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Certainly sounds like under-socialisation, doesn't it? She must be very anxious with so many new things to cope with, and no puppy social experience to help her. I suspect that when you sort out the fear of strangers when you are out and about, the reduction in stress will help with the reactive behaviour at home, too. Meanwhile, I would take the pressure off her in every way I could - and try to learn to recognise the little signs she uses to show me she is getting uncomfortable.


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

bigpoodleperson said:


> I agree with all the wonderful information being given here!
> 
> I just wanted to mention one thing. You mentioned that you are correcting her for growling when you are out. How do you do this? This might be part of the reason why she "suddenly lashes out" at people. If you correct her for growling, which is her warning system, then she has no other way to let peolpe know she is uncomfortable then to bark/lunge/bite. You are suppressing the growling, but not fixing the underlying reason she is growling. I would stop correcting her for growling as it is doing nothing to help. I would instead listen to her when she is growling and try and get her away from the threatening situation until you get in touch with a behaviorist who can tell you what to do next.
> 
> She is not hopeless! She just needs some help.


I use the pinch collar to correct her and tell her "quiet". Guessing that's the wrong choice, given what I'm reading. If she's timid and scared, I'm thinking I need to lose the pinch collar and use something else. Suggestions?


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Yes, I would lose the pinch collar. Next time your dog growls, just turn around and take her away from the situation. And definitely be more firm with other people and tell them no, they cannot pet your dog. It will make you feel like an ogre, but otherwise you've got a lawsuit waiting to happen. Love cbrand's idea about telling people your dog has ringworm!

Do you ever watch Victoria Stillwell's program, "It's Me or the Dog?" She is FABULOUS. I love her shows. Her methods are entirely based on positive reinforcement, with a good dollop of NO reinforcement for behavior you don't want (i.e., turning your back and ignoring dog if the problem is jumping up). She does so many things to de-sensitize dogs to stimuli that are too much for them, to teach impulse control, and to turn things around for all sorts of issues. You can get it on DVD if you don't have cable.

Your dog doesn't sound hopeless at all; it will just take some concentrated work to get to where you want to be with her.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Definitely lose the pinch collar, and as beach Girl says, turn around and take her away if she is uncomfortable. The aim is to make sure she never feels under pressure. I sometimes think we expect an awful lot of our dogs - I wouldn't accept petting and attention from all and sundry myself, so why should my dog? Just think - scary people with strange hats on, sticky children, people carrying big dangerous bags, people who move in threatening ways, people who won't leave you alone when you ask them to ... and you are held on a leash, and punished if you tell them to go away, and punished even more if you lose your temper!


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

So instead of a pinch collar, do I use a regular choke chain collar (although I'd read somewhere they weren't considered safe anymore) or one of those nylon training collars. Or do I just use a regular flat collar (which I'm not too keen on, because she pulls a lot without correction).


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## CelticKitti (Jul 1, 2010)

What are you trying to get out of the collar?? It sounds like you are trying to prevent her from pulling. I have had success with the gentle leader head halter and the easy walk harness. The head halter goes over their nose and gently pulls their nose down when they start to pull. You have to remember it is not to be used to give leash corrections. It is attached to their nose and you don't want to be pulling their neck around.

The easy walk harness attaches to the leash across the front of the chest and helps with pulling. Mia(my standard) learned to pull right through it. Although I have seen several dogs who walk very nicely with it.

Or are you looking for just something to attach her leash to. If thats the case I'd just use a flat collar or a martingale style collar. I would not use a choke chain. Same reason as the pinch collar.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

pls. disregard this.. sorry.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

bigpoodleperson said:


> I just wanted to mention one thing. You mentioned that you are correcting her for growling when you are out. How do you do this? This might be part of the reason why she "suddenly lashes out" at people. If you correct her for growling, which is her warning system, then she has no other way to let peolpe know she is uncomfortable then to bark/lunge/bite.


I'm sorry but I don't agree with this. I personally think dogs graduate to lunging and biting because they learn that they can push people around. I've read about plenty of dogs who were allowed to growl at their owners who still ended up biting. 

Yes the bitch is afraid, but I think we enter very dangerous territory when we allow dogs to start bossing people around. I think growling and aggressive behavior should always be corrected or by default, the dog will think that the behavior is OK. (If it is OK for a dog to growl when it is scared, is it OK for a dog to growl when it wants to keep the bone it took from the garbage? What about growling when a dogs wants to keep its spot on the bed?) The dog must know that aggressive behavior towards people is strictly verboten. 

You do need to manage your dog's environment to set her up for success until such time as she has worked through her issues. Try not to take her into situations that will push her buttons. If something happens, take her out of the stressful situation. Practice redirecting her attention so that she does not obsess about what is stressing her.

Above all..... get some professional help. Did you pay for this dog? I think the breeder should refund some of your purchase price to help off-set the cost of a behavioral evaluation.


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

I'm using the collar to stop her from pulling and to teach her to heel. When she walks ahead of me, I say "Tessa, heel" and if she doesn't return to a heel right away, I give the collar a quick (but gentle) jerk to get her attention. After a few times, she then responds to the verbal command pretty quickly. I also use the same small jerk to get her attention when she won't listen to a verbal command to leave something or when she growls or barks at another dog or a person. I find with a flat collar, I can't get that quick snap action and she just pulls back. We trained my Airedale with a metal choke collar, and it worked really well. 

As for payment, we did pay the previous owner for her. They wanted $1,000 initially to cover part of what they had paid and all the expenses they'd had to date (like spaying) and I actually asked about it on here and decided it was too much. But they agreed to reduce the price when we said it was too much and we ended up paying $500.00 for her.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I knew you would disagree with it Carol.  Thats ok. I too dont agree with letting dogs "boss us around" and growl whenever they feel like it. Getting off bed for instance and when they have something of high value. I would not tollerate it either. I think in this instance though, some warning from the dog would be good before she "just bites" someone while out. Plus, if she does bite someone, that person would have more "ammo" for them if the dog did not growl. It would be used as she is an unstable dog who all of a sudden bites. 

I agree that a gentle leader head collar would be good for her. For one, it will help with the pulling, also it will close her mouth when pulled up. Many behaviorists recommend them for dogs they are working on.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

cbrand said:


> I'm sorry but I don't agree with this. I personally think dogs graduate to lunging and biting because they learn that they can push people around. I've read about plenty of dogs who were allowed to growl at their owners who still ended up biting.
> 
> Yes the bitch is afraid, but I think we enter very dangerous territory when we allow dogs to start bossing people around. I think growling and aggressive behavior should always be corrected or by default, the dog will think that the behavior is OK. (If it is OK for a dog to growl when it is scared, is it OK for a dog to growl when it wants to keep the bone it took from the garbage? What about growling when a dogs wants to keep its spot on the bed?) The dog must know that aggressive behavior towards people is strictly verboten.
> 
> ...


I am in absolute agreement with all that has been said here by Carol.

If you let the dog start by growling and dont learn how to nip it in the butt ASAP, it will escalate and then you will find it very hard to control and/or correct.


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## CelticKitti (Jul 1, 2010)

Knowing and living with a dog for a short time who "just bites" because he got yelled at for growling, I have to agree that you shouldn't always correct for growling. If the dog is growling at a person because it is scared and wants to back away to me that is better than growling at me for taking away a toy. I would rather have the warning sign than no warning at all!

If it were my dog my goal in training would be to not let her get to the point where she would growl. I'd want to take it very slowly and introduce her to new situations very very slowly. She didn't get the proper socialization as a puppy if she'd never really been on a leash. You want to make sure every experience is a positive one. Even if that means leaving her home and taking the other dog for now. Introduce her to dog savvy person in your home when the "stranger" has LOTS and LOTS of very high value treats (meatballs, hot dogs, cheese). Very slowly she will get comfortable around people and new situations. You don't want to set her up for failure by taking her to the park on a Saturday morning when it is very busy. She is going to be scared, she is used to being at home all day. 

I agree with everyone else you should get a professional trainer. I prefer one that works with a clicker and does not use harsh corrections.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

you don't wnt to 'correct' for growling but instead redirect. but you also don't want to pet pamper and coo when growling you know? I've delt with few of these in the past year betwn fosters. my own rescue and dogs through our classes. 

things i would be doing. 
1- enough 'leash' to keep control
2- work on basics like watch me and sit to gian confidence and default behavoirs
3-i'd work on socializing. NO petting..> Just explain- Shes just learning how to be round new people. Keep treats with you- an easy one is squeeze cheeze or a container with PB rubbed around the sides. I"d start by going near new people and asking for basic well known commands (Sit etc) Watch for relaxation signs, licking, big breath etc. 
then move closer. Then have strangers right by you.. sitting, rewarding... for good behavoir. growling- redirect- ask for her attention- then reward for that, or a sit... 

Then you go to having others offer treats. This is why squeeze cheeze etc is good as it puts a bit of a seperation between the dog and the stranger be it few inches. it may take weeks to get to this point.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

> If you let the dog start by growling and dont learn how to nip it in the butt ASAP, it will escalate and then you will find it very hard to control and/or correct.



Honest question for you Ora. According to the OP she IS trying to nip the growling in the butt. The biting has infact escalated even with doing this. So therefor, how is "getting rid of the growling" helping her in this situation? 

I absolutely Do Not agree with letting dogs show aggressive behavior towards humans in any way. I do however think that in this situation that just correcting the growling wont work. I believe it could infact make it worse. Not only losing the fair warning she is giving (probably started with smaller warnings that were not picked up on, therefor having to move to a growl), but also if you correct the growl, then she could tie the correction with people which would make everything worse. 
She is trying to communicate her insecurity. That is a different growl to me then say "leave my bone alone", "get away from my yard", "this is my couch", etc.


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

You've gotten lots of great advice on this thread. Unfortunately one really needs to see the dog and read it's body language in person to truly understand it the issues are. You really need an animal behaviorist to evaluate this dog now; before the dog learns that it can control people by get snappy.

Until such time: 

Everyone one needs to be on board in your family with helping this dog over come this stuff. It 's going to take some time and effort but Poodles are very smart and learn very quickly.

I would use a flat buckle collar or martingale for this dog. No pinch/choke collar.

Walk the dogs separately so you can focus on training/socializing Tessa. Maybe your hubby can take over walking the other dog while you focus on Tessa.

Don't allow strangers to pet your dogs. You must step in front of your dogs if morons insist on approaching your girl and tell them to stop. Tessa will be sooooooooo..... impressed with your fearless leadership and willingness to protect the pack from said morons.

Walk the dog at heel, not in front of you. You are the pack leader and she is suppose to be following your lead. She's an insecure dog that needs leadership so she doesn't feel like she has to protect herself from the world; as the pack leader it's your job to protect her.

When adopting an adult dog I always start training as if they are puppies. I assume the dog knows nothing and start with treats and positive reinforcement to condition the correct response. I'd do 6 weeks of basic obedience training SIT, STAY, DOWN, HERE, HEEL on then off lead. 

Use lots of praise and positive tail wagging fun when training this dog. Don't go over board with corrections while heeling, use praise, food rewards (maybe) and repetition to keep the dog's focus at heel UNTIL IT BECOMES A CONDITIONED RESPONSE. Then you can correct it if needed. While I'm not a clicker trainer, that type of training would help this dog learn to focus on you without the pressure/stress of corrections.

I would NOT try having strangers feed the dog treats until she is evaluated by a professional. You must protect the public. 

Good Luck! Keep us posted.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think there is a difference between "giving way" to growling or barking caused by fear, and "giving way" to the same behaviour triggered by lack of impulse control, although for me both are better addressed by reward based training than by correction and punishment. The first is like a child crying because she is afraid of the dark - you may choose not to "give in", tell her off for making a noise, and leave her to the misery of sleepless nights and possibly escalating fears, or give her a night light and let her grow out of it. The second is like a small child screaming for sweets in the supermarket - where I would use distraction, redirection, and a small reward for good behaviour rather than bad. 

I think Tessa may respond very well to clicker training - it can give the dog a feeling of some control over what is happening, which can be very reassuring for a nervous animal.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

bigpoodleperson;116493 said:


> Honest question for you Ora. According to the OP she IS trying to nip the growling in the butt. The biting has infact escalated even with doing this. So therefor, how is "getting rid of the growling" helping her in this situation?
> 
> I absolutely Do Not agree with letting dogs show aggressive behavior towards humans in any way. I do however think that in this situation that just correcting the growling wont work. I believe it could infact make it worse. Not only losing the fair warning she is giving (probably started with smaller warnings that were not picked up on, therefor having to move to a growl), but also if you correct the growl, then she could tie the correction with people which would make everything worse.
> She is trying to communicate her insecurity. That is a different growl to me then say "leave my bone alone", "get away from my yard", "this is my couch", etc.


Bibpoodleperson:

I am in total agreement with you. You are right and after a bit of aforethought about my suggestion I realized that it is the wrong one.
You are correct in stating that it is better to have the warning (growling) than not have it.

I never pretended to be a maven when it comes to difficult poodles with unsound temperaments. This because I never bred such temperaments and am trully not very familiar with them. So I can only assume that I would do "this and that" in certain situations.

I read posts from you, CBrand and other extremely knowldedeable people and I do stand corrected if anything I post is not helpful or incorrect.

I am more into conformation than obedience and as a result of continuously breeding sound temperaments I am not exposed to the problems that some people on this forum deal with when it comes to their dogs. 

So if my suggestion is non productive or from your experience you feel it is the wrong one, I welcome your input. As everyone else on this forum, I am also learning from others and appreciate your comment.


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> I never pretended to be a maven when it comes to difficult poodles with unsound temperaments. This because I never bred such temperaments and am trully not very familiar with them. So I can only assume that I would do "this and that" in certain situations.
> 
> I read posts from you, CBrand and other extremely knowldedeable people and I do stand corrected if anything I post is not helpful or incorrect.
> 
> I am more into conformation than obedience and as a result of continuously breeding sound temperaments I am not exposed to the problems that some people on this forum deal with when it comes to their dogs.


So do you all think this is a breeding issue then? If so, I wonder if that's why the breeder hasn't replied to my email with concerns about this issue, since she's been really good at replying to my other emails.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Hard to say. Could be natural. Could be under socialization. Could be the stress of changing homes. Could be your handling (not pointing fingers but I haven't seen you handle your dog and often owners unwittingly feed a problem).

Bummer that your breeder has not responded.

Take a deep breath. This is not a lost cause. She is obviously not totally skitsy and from what you have said, she seems to function normally most of the time. I think this problem is fixable. Get some professional help and go forth with a positive attitude!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I don't think it is so much a breeding issue, as a matter of inadequate early socialisation. Perhaps a very, very outgoing dog might sail through even without meeting people as a pup, but most need that early experience to future proof them. It is not too late, though - just needs a bit of careful planning and remedial work.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Scoots;116534 said:


> So do you all think this is a breeding issue then? If so, I wonder if that's why the breeder hasn't replied to my email with concerns about this issue, since she's been really good at replying to my other emails.


Scoots

What concerns me most here is WHY has the breeder not taken her breeding back and found a proper home for her breeding since she did not fair well in her first home.

If any of my clients call to let me know they are facing a temperament problem I would take the poodle back to my house , assess the situation with a professional and keep the poodle in my home until such time I feel I can trust her/him to place h/him into a new home.

The mere fact that the breeder did not take the "problem" dog back but allowed her to go to a new home without assessing her herself in her home where this female was born and raised moreover does not reply to your phone/calls emails etc... speaks VOLUMES about such a breeder.

I would suggest that you forgo calling or emailing her further and hire professional help for your dog in order to attempt correcting her behavior if you can.

It seems to me that this breeder has washed her hands not only from her own breeding but also is now ignoring a person who owns her breeding and who is encountering problems with it.

As I said in one of the threads on this forum , a breeder's ethics and comittment to her breeding is tested not when everything is running smoothly and there is no problem to confront, but when there is a problem and the client needs advice from the breeder who afterall bred the litter and is familiar with all aspects of their temperament from birth.

If the breeder has not responded by now, it is very likely that she wont in future.

There are enough knowledgeable people on this forum that can offer wonderful and constructive advice to you so you can hopefully maange to revamp your girl's tendency to growl and lunge.

I am more into conformation as I said and not as familiar with these type of temperaments as fortunately for me and my clients, I NEVER bred them, , but people such as C. Brand, BeachGirl, Bigpoodle person and others I may have forgotten to mention (sorry guys!!) are an excellent source of good advice and information and I believe you can learn from them in regards to what needs to be done and how.

Good luck with your girl.. Not all breeders are like your girl's breeder and I am sorry you stumbled upon one like her.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

I honestly feel that if a dog's CORE temperament is sound , any behavior can be modified with the right aproach and technique. And I agree it is not too late for your girl...

Scoots you have great advice here from others .


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> What concerns me most here is WHY has the breeder not taken her breeding back and found a proper home for her breeding since she did not fair well in her first home.
> 
> If any of my clients call to let me know they are facing a temperament problem I would take the poodle back to my house , assess the situation with a professional and keep the poodle in my home until such time I feel I can trust her/him to place h/him into a new home.
> 
> The mere fact that the breeder did not take the "problem" dog back but allowed her to go to a new home without assessing her herself in her home where this female was born and raised moreover does not reply to your phone/calls emails etc... speaks VOLUMES about such a breeder.


In all fairness, it was the breeder who tried to find a new home for her and placed her with us. She actually came to our house when the previous owners brought Tessa here to see how things went and see how Tessa was doing. It was her who was concerned about her low weight (36 pounds) and that she had terrible ear infections. And at the time, we all thought she was just a bit skittish because of the long drive (3 hours in the car), new people, another dog... And the growling and bark/lunge thing has only become apparent as we try to socialize her more. I honestly don't think the previous owners were up front with anyone, including the breeder, what the true reason why they were trying to rehome Tessa. They told all of us it was a time thing - that she was going to be alone for 16 hours a day and that they felt it was unfair to her. In retrospect, it seems there was probably more to it, but they seem to be denying ever experiencing these issues when they had her, and appear surprised at her growling and barking, which I find hard to believe.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Scoots:

If indeed this was the case than I take my assumption about the breeder back.

However WHY isnt she replying to your concerns after you most likely placed either several calls to her house or sent her more than one email , which I am led to believe from your previous post that you did.

My question is if the breeder was concerned enough with the initial rehoming and came to the house to assess her breeding being concerned about the low weight, why wouldnt she not folllow the same aproach she had when you adopted Tessa and reply to your current concerns which are very valid and... serious.


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

I don't know. I've only become concerned about her behaviour in the last week or so, and we were away camping, so the breeder only got emails from me over the weekend. Maybe she's away. I'm concerned, too, but I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Ora, I hope it didnt sound like i was "calling you out" on the matter!! I honestly didnt do it just so i could be "right"! I really respect your opinion. 

I really like Carols advice. Take a deep breath!


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

I like the gentle leader idea.

I had an aggressive greyhound (she is a long story, I was a sort of foster owner for her) that had a lot of similar issues.
She was the alpha when she was turned out with the other bitches, and she was also considered 'passive dominant'...so she'd stand just like that, erect, look out of the corner of her eye, tail up, and if someone didn't respect her stance, she'd lash out at them. I put a gentle leader on her and I found people were afraid of it, thinking it was a muzzle, and they mostly left her alone.


She was a hard case because everyone wanted to touch her because she was so gorgeous, but she really wasn't having it.

She apparently didn't read the Greyhound Handbook. 

Her Forever Home keeps her on her gentle leader and warns people to just leave her alone.
They are taking her to a trainer.
She did have a rough past, that is verified.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Scoots said:


> I don't know. I've only become concerned about her behaviour in the last week or so, and we were away camping, so the breeder only got emails from me over the weekend. Maybe she's away. I'm concerned, too, but I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.


Scoots:
Oh , OK, in this case yes pls. do give her the benefit of a doub at least 2 weeks to see if she does or does not reply and in the meantime, there is so much good advice on this thread from qualified obedience people that you can benefit from and extract some info about how to deal with this issue in your girl.

I think it is not a lost cause at all and I have a gut feeling that her behavior can be changed , but with the right approach and the right trainer.

Good luck and let us know if hte breeder replied to your calls/emails.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

bigpoodleperson said:


> Ora, I hope it didnt sound like i was "calling you out" on the matter!! I honestly didnt do it just so i could be "right"! I really respect your opinion.
> 
> I really like Carols advice. Take a deep breath!


Bigpoodleperson:

Please NO need to even apologize, I am learning as much as you guys about certain things and obedience is just not my forte.

I can certainly participate more from knowledge about conformation rather than from the obedience aspect.. For this I have you and members such as CBrand and others who are infinitely more qualified than I am to make an input regarding temperament.

Honestly I am astounded as to the myriad and some serious temperament issues I have gotten to learn about only on this forum...

I am counting my lucky stars that in the 16 years I have been breeding that I never encountered such temperament issues, so it does not come as a surprise to me that I am quite unfamiliar with what needs to be done in these situations. 

I honestly appreciate you pointing out to me when and where I could be wrong in my opinion/suggestions and am taking what you say in a very positive manner as I can only learn and benefit from a statement made based on knowledge and experience.. So , no you have definitely not offended me in any way, or "called me out", on the contrary, I appreciate your input and have learnt from it.


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## Standard (Aug 25, 2010)

Scoots. Don't get to down on yourself about this. You are doing all you can, you seem a responsible owner who truly cares about her dog. 

I have a large male pitbull cross who not only exhibited this type of behaviour, but we had him from a puppy. It took me many years to realize this was due to his genetic tempermant and was not my fault. He was correctly socialized (dog park, puppy classes etc.) from the day we got him at ten weeks. However, he was always very afraid and scared. I did not realize at the time, but pushing him into these situations was not helping, assuming he would "just get over it" like most dogs was an impossibility. 

Once he hit about four months old he would lunge and try to bite any person or dog that came within ten feet of him. It was a nightmare to walk him around the neighbourhood. Complicating matters was that I was only 12 years old when I got him. And he was my sole responsibilty. Despite that my parents and I had previous dogs, and practiced a policy of never getting rid of dogs regardless of their issues. It seemed like he may be the exception.

Even at my young age I realized as soon as we let this dog go he would be passed from house to house or sent to the pound and would live a very unhappy exsistance. I still to this day believe if he was temperament tested at a rescue he would likely fail and be euthanized. 

However, realizing his grim future, I somehow convinced my parents that I could keep him. He bit strangers twice. Drawing blood once. I shudder to think the ignorance of my parents and I, and the truly dangerous dog he could be. He is at least 90lbs and can look utterly terrifying. It has never been easy. It as taken many years, but he is now a "stable" dog. He can walk down the street without an issue, strangers can come up and pet him so long as I am standing right next to them when I do (i often ask men and darker skinned people to squat in front of him as he finds them threatening, just as a precaution). He has not even attempted to bite or act aggressive to anyone I let him know can come over and pet him in at least 5 years.

I believe his stability is achieved only through his trust in me. He completely trusts my judgement and if I alllow someone to approach us he will immediatly assume a friendly presona, wagging his tail and smiling at them. Just know that there is hope. The bond between me and him is stronger than with any dog I have ever had. 

He will never be a dog park dog, he still has aggression issues with strange dogs, and does not like more than one around him at once. Strangers cannot enter my home without someone from the family or someone he knows well accompanying them. He is a paranoid dog by nature, and he has to be introduced to new things very slowly. I would even go as far as saying he has OCD as he doesn't like when things are moved in the house from their usual place. Sometimes this is good though, like when he doesn't let the new puppy chew shoes or chase the cats lol.

I do not believe your girl is from "poor breeding" there are rouge genes in even the most stable of parents that can come out in only one puppy. I also googled the sharp/shy term and I think I came across the same post as you did where one poster said they should all be euthanized. I disagree, these dogs should never be bred EVER but they should not be condemned to death.

Get an expert, I have seen worse cases solved. It is not hopeless.


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