# Puppy Socialization Ideas- Children?



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

nifty I am glad you are finding those Ian Dunbar books useful. I think your idea sounds great. I would take it a step further and once you have had your puppy party and you know your baby is doing well with kids, drive on over to the school when they are getting ready to leave at the end of the day and have a puppy party there. You are lucky your sons are grown men. Having puppies around men is important too!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks lily cd re, that is exactly what I would love to do! However, I am picking up my puppy at the end of June after school gets out.  I am going to talk to the school today and perhaps compose a letter for distribution. Ideally, I'd like to have many different family groups visit over several weeks (I have cleared my schedule this summer to work with my puppy as I am very serious about raising her well with a view to therapy work later) and if I can get enough people interested, ideally I would like different people coming over just about every day for an hour during her 8-14 week age period and beyond. Your suggestion is so good, though, that I am now thinking I can perhaps follow up in September with a visit to the school where all the children can see how the puppy they have helped to "train" has grown!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

As I just said in your other thread you are going to have an awesome dog!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks lily cd re! I hope I can do right by this puppy. I'm inexperienced, but I have taken a loooong time getting ready for this, read a ton and am prepared to really make it a priority right now - the timing is perfect as I am on the brink of an empty nest and I work at home. I am very lucky to be in this position and with a little help (ok a LOT lol) from people here and the books and resources and the puppy classes - I think I can do this. Am so excited and looking forward to many years of wonderful companionship!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You will be fine!


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## ChantersMom (Aug 20, 2012)

While I like the idea, I am sitting here trying to imagine these puppy parties. As a mom to two young children and an owner of a dog, I am unsure I would send my kids over or pile the kids into the car to attend one. 
If you offered to come visit for 15 minutes and let my kids play with puppy, I would prefer that. There are probably parents out there thinking about getting a dog, so this would be good for everyone. 

I would feel that if puppy got overwhelmed, you could take control of the situation.
Also, it's amazing how many kids don't know how to act around a puppy and I would want a very small group, 1-2 kids, perhaps?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It doesn't have to be a lot of people at any one time, it just should be as many different kinds of people as possible as early as possible. In the past I've heard Ian talk about this along the lines of having the puppy sit with different people while guests are over anyway for football on TV.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i used to take my dog to a park where i knew a lot of kids played and sit on a bench near an exit area. one thing i wanted was for him to get used to the screaming that kids at play do. eventually i knew at least some kids would pass by and be interested in petting him. that's how he was "proofed" (i really dislike that word!) re not jumping on or mouthing kids (or any human). also, like many dogs, actually, he was never a cuddler; he learned to stand still so kids could touch him. i also asked friends to pass him from lap to lap after holding him awhile. my dog was five months old when i got him and all of this took place over the succeeding months, but it still helped socialize him. so the younger the better - just make sure the kids don't tease the dog or do any physical harm.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

RunChanter, I should have said - yes, I only intend to have one or two children (and their parents) at a time. If I get a good response, I was thinking I would spread it out over a few weeks - one or two children and their parents at a time, so it would be a quieter and more controlled meeting. I was thinking I would give the visitors a few high value treats and encourage the kids to "teach" the puppy how to sit. Maybe play the recall game if all going well. I intend to present it as "please consider volunteering an hour of your time to help socialize a future therapy dog" or something like that - and if I get responses, I would arrange the playdates with limited numbers (as I said no more than 2 children and their parents at a time) and also use the scheduling phone call to explain to the parent what I am trying to do - so hopefully some prep for the kids will go on at home before they come over.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks Patk, that is another excellent suggestion! There are a few parks in my area and I will definitely do that! Exposure to the screaming and playing rambunctiously is important and what better way than at a safe distance just outside the park? Also, great way to meet a few more children! Thanks!


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## MonicaLin (Mar 18, 2014)

I'm newbie, without a spoo yet but I do have kids. When I pick up and drop off the kids from school, at 8:30am and 3:15pm, I see several parents waiting with their dogs. A small crowd invariable gathers around the dogs particularly after school. They're so popular that everyone knows their names. Maybe walks near schools would work?


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks Monica, that's a great suggestion! There is an elementary school fairly close.


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## ChantersMom (Aug 20, 2012)

My only other comment (and perhaps Mr. Dunbar recommends this) comes from my experience with my own dog, Chanter. When he was a puppy, I allowed people to treat him and soon I realized he made the connection with certain people and food. He became a mugger. I would just be a bit careful about giving kids high valued treats to feed your puppy but that is only because of my dog. I could be wrong. 

With the exception of Petsmart (too many smells, other dogs), I frequently go to stores that allow dogs. We have a video store and Chanter has learned to keep his feet on the ground and stand quietly beside me. There are often children there too. 

I have also stood on a busy corner (waiting for my DD to come out of Brownies) and let people approach Chanter. It's worked out but, again, perhaps Ian Dunbar wouldn't approve.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Good point about the high value treats. Ian Dunbar recommends using the dog's daily kibble/food in training etc so I'll use that. I don't know if he does or does not recommend what you describe, but I have definitely seen it recommended in other books that seem to make sense. Also sitting on a bench outside a mall or shopping area - same idea as what you do. I intend to do this during the period when the puppy is still not fully vaccinated - to get her used to strangers and activity but without taking too much risk of exposure to parvo etc.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Dr. Dunbar does recommend using regular kibble for training and it does work. I ran out of "good stuff" when I was at Ian's workshop since Lily had an unforeseen opportunity to help herself to a bag of Zukes. I used kibble the second day and sparingly at that and we won at the doggie dash (recall game), musical chairs (distance distracted sit stay), won our heat in a back up your dog race and came in third for a long distance catch contest. For my own work in obedience and agility I have decided that food in training is mostly a lie. You can't use it in AKC trials in a ring, so why lie to the dog and make it think the food is always right there?

Use kibble to teach a puppy by the lure reward training method. Fade the food quickly so it doesn't become a bribe. Use kibble for all or none reward training to reinforce things like fast recalls and distance/distracted sits and downs for adult dogs. Save a jackpot kind of treat for something really extra special.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

I think that makes sense, lily cd re. I was kind of thinking the same thing - that I'd like the training to move beyond treat rewarding at some point for sure (though as you said, special exceptions for special situations). 

Has anyone tried the recommendation of putting all of the dog's daily food into kongs or similar during crate training etc? How does that work for house training (i.e. predictability of times needing to go out - and also overnight) and when the puppy is older, do you then introduce the bowl? The idea appeals to me because the puppy will be busy and hopefully happy learning to love chew toys that are appropriate and also occupied in the crate. On the other hand, there is a conflicting view that 2 or 3 feeding times per day make house training easier (some say impossible unless you do it this way, though I don't believe that since my daughter free fed from day one with her toy and she was reliably house trained (and bell trained in an apartment) fairly quickly.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

RunChanter said:


> My only other comment (and perhaps Mr. Dunbar recommends this) comes from my experience with my own dog, Chanter. When he was a puppy, I allowed people to treat him and soon I realized he made the connection with certain people and food. He became a mugger. I would just be a bit careful about giving kids high valued treats to feed your puppy but that is only because of my dog. I could be wrong.


that is a really good point about one's dog becoming a mugger. i think what has to happen is that the child has to be taught to ask first for a sit and then give the treat when it happens. otherwise, a dog that has not learned politeness first will do what is natural and jump up on the child - or anyone. there are a couple of dogs in my neighborhood who see me coming, remember the treats and try to jump up on me. one of them is a very large and nice airedale - named lily, as a matter of fact. her owners are both tall and large, so no problem for them. big problem for me. on the other hand, there is a golden who sees me and sits (her owners have taught her to sit upon greeting), but will get as close as she can and nudge me to scratch her head. it's very much a case of owner responsibiity.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Excellent points! I had neglected to say that I planned to use the method recommended in Dunbar's book - of preparing the children in advance to ask for a sit and then reward with the treat/kibble. And, as the puppy gets a little older (I mean in the first weeks after I get her, not months) progress to having the children and other visitors asking for a sit, a down and a stay before rewarding with the one piece of kibble.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

nifty forgive me for not remembering, but is your pup a spoo? If so I wouldn't worry about having part of the daily kibble ration in a kong. You will be able to predict when the pup needs to go by making sure you go out after naps and after play in the house quite well. I don't know if you have seen my suggestions about how to do it but I would urge you to teach potty on command. Here is a link to one of the places I explained how.

http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/75626-please-stop-bells.html


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks lily dc re - yes, my puppy will be a SPOO (I will be bringing her home week of June 23 - CAN'T WAIT! )

The potty on command is something I will definitely be teaching - excellent idea. I wasn't planning on using bells (that was my daughter's pup) - my plan is to get into regular routine including walks etc and also potty on command. When my pup is several months old, I'll be moving from suburb to city, and at that point, will definitely need to have a solid routine and pup will need to be able to go on command when necessary.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't use the bells either. I think my two would just ring them all the time because they want to go out an goof around. I linked to that thread because it was the first one I found that had the explanation of how to get potty on command. There are a couple of other places I posted it as well.

Once you are in the city and later when you are making therapy visits you will find it very helpful.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

I just heard from the school principal and she said they would very much like to assist me in my project! She'll include my info in a school newsletter. She also invited me to bring the puppy to school over the summer break as they are having summer camp every week except July 4. I'm really happy about this!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*nifty*, It's fun to watch you prepare for your puppy! I want to recommend a trainer who offers practical, progressive training advice, Emily Larlham. If you aren't yet familiar with her, check her out! Her videos are wonderful and she has a blog as well.
https://dogmantics.com/

This is a listing of her videos.
New Puppy Owner Videos- dog training - YouTube

You might want to take a look at this one.
What are the first things to train and to avoid training - YouTube

As for fading a food lure, here are some links of possible interest.
Dog Training - Quantum Leap 1: Phase Out Food Lures - YouTube
Advanced Dog Training Methods: How to Fade Prompts and Lures - Whole Dog Journal Article
https://dogmantics.com/2012/11/15/fading-a-lure/

I taught my mpoo to use the potty bells as a pup and it worked (still does, he's 5 now!) very well for us. He does his "business" on command. He only rings the bells when he needs an outdoor trip for a nature call between his regular opportunities to do so. My vet encouraged me to use them and I'm glad I did. This is one method for training a pup/dog to use them.
How to Train Your Puppy to Ring a Bell to Potty | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

Glad you have a plan for socializing your pup to children. I also made liberal use of other people's little munkins by bringing my pup to watch them on the pre-school playground, summer day camp activities in the park, outside the local elementary school at arrival and dismissal time and when the children's group at the library was coming and going. Chagall is a kid magnet, the early exposure and training_ really_ paid off. You are in for so much fun and pleasure!:dog::happy:


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Hi Chagall's Mom! Thanks for all the great tips! Yes, my daughter taught her little toy how to use bells and it has been great - and I found it very helpful when I looked after her for the year while my daughter was overseas. The reason I am going to not do the bells with my new puppy is because I'll be moving to a high rise city apartment within the next year and at that point, running out at the ring of a bell won't be a simple matter. I am aiming for an exercise/potty routine so that by the time we move, my pup will hopefully be used to trips outside every couple of hours and a couple of good walks each day.

Off to check out those videos!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

nifty said:


> ... if I can get enough people interested, ideally I would like different people coming over just about every day for an hour during her 8-14 week age period and beyond.


I am thoroughly enjoying reading your thread and imagining your puppy socialization. Wish I lived nearby to join in!

Remember that puppies tire quickly. I would keep visits brief. Even the mailperson could do a quick gentle pet hello

Also I ended up making it a rule that no one else but me (or an occasional trainer in a class) gives my dog treats. I didn't want him to be a beggar. Plus I want him to associate treats with me, and with training, and he always does something I ask first to get one - even if it is just to sit for the treat. It has worked really well.

With kids, and other people, I have a rule that if they want to pet him they first ask me if they can pet him, and they they ask him to sit. When he sits then they can pet him (only as long as he is still sitting). That way they learn more about dog etiquette, my dog learns to behave without jumping up or squirming around when being petted, and my dog has control over how long someone can pet him. So if for some reason they are rough, or he doesn't care for them, or is tired, then he can stand up and that is their signal to stop petting him. This has worked super! I used to work at homework night. All the kids learned this. Now when I see them around town they end up teaching their friends and parents, and even strangers about the rule for petting my spoo!

It also tells me a lot about the people and the kids, just the way they ask my spoo to sit. You would be amazed at the variety. Some people calmly ask, some yell at him, some point their finger at him and say sit in a very loud voice, some actually try to push his rear end down while yelling at him! I then also end up with an opportunity to teach them how to ask him calmly or with a hand signal. (Or with some of the yeller pushers I have just decided to stay away from them myself!)


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

kontiki you have hit on something I talk about in different places which is that training can be built into every interaction your dog has with you and other people. It doesn't have to take long or be fancy to be meaningful. Your approach is marvelous. nifty has great ideas and is getting lots of good suggestions for fine tuning the plans for when the pup arrives.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

I've been out of touch for a few days. Thanks kontiki for the great tips! Yes, I will bear the idea of short visits and keeping an eye on my puppy for tiredness in mind! lily cd re, I have been making notes of your wonderful tips! I am definitely planning to work training into regular life!
I've heard from two school families and have set up one visit already for June 29. I sent the mom a brief outline of what I'd like her to talk about with the children before they come. I've watched all of the kikopup videos Chagalls Mom! I stayed up WAY too late that night, fascinated. Love her approach! I have since viewed several of them again. I loved the one on calming signals and I ordered Turid Rugaas's book.
The other day I was at lunch with my daughter at a brunch place and we were sitting outside. People were coming and going for brunch - older people, younger people, wheelchairs, walkers, canes, strollers, babies in carrys eats. I thought Yes! This is will be a great place to sit with my pup when she is ready for wider socialization (say a few weeks after she comes home) - and a great ways to help her get safe distance exposure to things like wheelchairs etc which I was wondering how I was going to manage! Just as I thought it, my daughter noticed that there was a very well behaved dog a few tables over - so I guess that restaurant is dog friendly too - hooray!

ETA -- Almost forgot to say - I am going to visit the puppies on Tuesday - they are now 5 weeks old! I will try to get some pictures!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

nifty that is really nice that you will be visiting the litter this week. We first met Lily and her litter mates when they were five weeks old. We had pick of the black girls (of which there were four). I thought it would be hard to decide, but she had such a standout personality even at that age that I left 99% sure of which one would be coming home with us. She engaged with us, but also played well with her siblings. She also was attentive to things going on in other parts of the house. When she came home a couple of weeks later she was all that and more. She played well with everyone who came to visit and started being a watch dog out in the yard by the time she was nine weeks old. She learned fetch within a couple of days.

You will enjoy your visit and I imagine it will give you a good feel for which pup will suit your needs. Let us know how it goes.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*School Dogs?*

Where I live in Australia you can be fined if your dog is found at a school.
Further schools ask parents not to bring dogs to school when picking up their children. You are sooo lucky to have school administrators who see the need for children to have contact with dogs and know how to control and socialize with them. With my latest Girl Grace, I take her to the big city. A town of just 1,000 persons. (I live on an Island) Here she walks the whole 1/2 mile of the main street with me (at heel) She is to not take notice of any people or other dogs unless I stop and sit her. Here she expects to be introduced by name and if allowed to sniff then be petted by those who will stop to do so. In this setting she must not take any notice of other dogs. (there are beaches and parks where she can do that) Many children will say "look mummy look at the big black beautiful dog." She will walk the mile a few times in a day and meet at least 6 children and be stopped by a dozen adults many of whom now know her well. ( she has made friends everywhere she has gone and I have made a few through her)
Regards Eric in OZ


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

How interesting to hear what it is like with dogs in Australia. Sounds like you have done a super job on training!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Eric in OZ, I agree with kontiki, it is so interesting to hear what it is like in other places! I like your approach of taking the walks on the busy main street of a town - I plan to do something similar with Dulcie!

In reference to the dogs at school - that is an interesting thing. The school actually does have a rule about dogs in the pick up line and people are asked not to bring their dogs regularly at the hectic drop off or picking up time. No fines, I don't believe, but it is a definite policy. This is because of the volume of traffic and the number of small children around - a startled pup or child could easily dart off the sidewalk and have an accident.

However, the school itself has an in-house dog - the calm and well-trained pet of the head of the upper (high) school part of the school. He is an American Bulldog and very gentle and laid back. He calmly greets visitors to the school from the office door. Students may pet and sit down by him when they meet with the head on school business and it has a very calming effect. He is often present at lunchtimes when the lower school children come to the upper school dining room for lunch - and it makes a wonderful difference for some of the very youngest who might feel intimidated by coming to the big school. The upper school head often visits the lower school building with the dog so that all of the children have a nice family feeling about moving on through the grades and switching buildings. The school has found that his presence has had a very nice influence on the students.

The school is helping me by publishing (in the school newsletter) my request for family participation in socializing Dulcie in my home. The head of school also invited me to bring Dulcie during the summer break when there will be small group summer camp sessions on campus (arts and crafts, theater, music camp and similar) - which is a much more quiet and controlled environment than the regular school year with hundreds of students running about at dismissal time.

ETA I should add that when I bring Dulcie, the head's dog will not be greeting her there because we both recognize that he might feel a bit possessive of his "territory" - therefore, he is going to bring the school dog to my home to meet Dulcie - and he is such a well-trained dog that I think that will be a very good introduction for my puppy in her own setting.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*All dogs are not created equal*

As I said, I am impressed with the advanced attitude your schools have with dogs. I was born in the UK in the 40s. When one would go to a restaurant, Hotel, or even a "food shop" (No Supermarkets), People would be accompanied by their dogs. In a restaurant the dogs would be under the tables. No one dog would rage or whine at another. You would rarely see dogs fed under the table. Food was rationed (WWII) Doggy bags were provided and any left over food (along with food sometimes provided by the management) was taken home and with some luck the dog might get it. What I am referring to is the high standard of behavior that was expected of a dog (or a child) at this time. Today we do not expect such a high standard of behavior from our dogs or our children. Feral dogs and children roam the streets. As a result both dogs and children are less welcome in public places. Daily we hear of the young and the old attacked by dogs and children. Pit bulls and dark colored children seem to be overly featured in these reports. But my real point is: "It is the level of our expectations that will determine the level of training and behavior that will result". If we have low expectations of our dogs then we will not work with them and strive to have their behavior pleasing to the observer. It is precisely because the behavior of a lot of dogs is not pleasing or controlled that they are no longer welcome in places where they once were. Modern ideas of hygiene have had an effect too but a family dog has only the same pathogens that its owners have. Too many poorly trained and controlled dogs, of difficult breeds, have spoiled the modern world for the dog family.
Yet: when I walk my dog Grace, well groomed, with her pink collar and leash, in busy streets, she gets nothing but praise from almost all who pass.
We all can all do our bit to change public opinions. Train your dog. Present her/him well. Have her/him's good behavior in public, see people think twice, before excluding our canine family.
Eric from OZ


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

I think that's a great idea.
I am also inexperienced , we brought Zoe home at almost nine weeks and shes now 17 weeks. All we have done is socialize socialize and more socialize.
I have a 6 and 10 year old as well as 14, 18, 21 ,and 24. My house is a rolling circus and Zoe loves it. She had to learn to be gentle with the little ones. I actually think she thought my youngest was part of her litter.
She had to learn bite inhibition, but she was always friendly from the beginning.
I think the more people she meets the better!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

mom2six said:


> I think the more people she meets the better!


Yup - I agree


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