# Any guesses on coat texture?



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

What breeder is this?


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Lol, it's not anyone anyone here would recognize. 

These obviously aren't show quality or registered. It's just from a "backyard breeder" ad I saw.. 

I may post pictures from their site of the parents, but was more wondering if people care to post an 8 week picture next to an adult coat picture of their toys or comment/guess on if that pup looks like it might even have a "possibility" of a half decent curly coat.

Rebecca


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## Hayley22 (Sep 21, 2011)

If you buy from a good breeder, I think you should be able to tell from the sire and the dam what the coat texture would be when fully grown. I think? Do any breeders agree?


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

So far I have absolutely been trying to get my hands on all sorts of different coats so I can be a better judge of how coats may turn out. I have found that at least around me, and in the limited 6 months or so I've been seriously looking at and physically getting my hands on dogs even the "reputable quality breeders" have left me with desire and cold feelings.

I feel about ready to scream if I hear one more breeder with "Champion show dogs" tell me that watery eyes or tear stains is "just something you have to live with", or "is completely normal with poodles", "is present in all small white dogs" or "it's not like its a REAL physical problem".

I am far from expert, I know I know next to nothing, but I have common sense, and have worked in a vet clinic for 7 years now. It IS a genetic problem in A LOT of cases. all small white dogs do NOT have tear staining. In most cases it's a STRUCTURAL defect. Some show breeders, particularly in Canada where the gene pool seems to be much smaller, ignore the problem since its easy to "hide" in cases of showing to championship. They shave off a lot of the hair and staining, they use peroxide wipes, they use long term antibiotics (angel eyes and Tylosin) until the dog is shown to championship. Then because the dog is "champion" it's obviously a good breeding prospect right? 

Then I start feeling coats. I have felt a number of different coats out there, backyard and show. It seems even in show dogs there are two to three textures out there. There's the harder to grow wispy almost flat coats, the slightly harsh dense full curly coats, and the soft but dense coats in the middle. Again, I've seen a "champion" that probably only got that championship with a heck of a lot of "product" to hold that coat up and fill it out for that "five minutes of fame"

Anyway, I digress... Just hoping for some help in finding any indicators one may look for in a puppy coat that might point to a fairly curly, slightly harsh coat in an adult...


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## sandooch (Jan 20, 2011)

Darling puppies, but I agree that a better indicator of whether this puppy will have the coat you desire would be to see its parents. Although, being BYB puppies (Gigi also came from a BYB), you can't even be certain if the picture of the parents they'll show you are really these puppies partents though.

I've also read that toy poodles tend to not get as curly/dense coats as miniatures and standards. Of course, that is not always the case.

I think the puppy you're considering is adorable nonetheless.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

When I met my breeder's dogs and the litter I was buying from at 5 weeks old, I noticed the texture immediately. As a groomer, I regularly get poodle pups with thin, wispy coats, which will develop into a thin wispy adult coat. My puppy's coat was thick and curly from the getgo. When she got her adult coat, it only got thicker, but not coarse. She's also black, though, and I've rarely seen this exact coat texture in a white, particularly in a toy.

As much as it sucks, tearing IS a genetic structural problem, and unfortunately it goes along with shrinking dogs down to toy size. You're lucky if you find a toy breed of any kind that _doesn't_ have a tearing issue, champion pedigrees or not. It's a product of trying to fit the eyeballs and brains and 42 teeth of a full sized canid into a very small space, there's not really much room left for sinuses and correctly structured tear ducts to fit. In other words, it's something that started hundreds of years ago, which is why today's breeders are telling you there's not much they can do about it now. Obviously, the point of breeding champions is trying to produce the ideal dog, but they're also only able to work with what has come before, which clearly isn't perfect.

It might help if you can get the opportunity to visit with breeders and their dogs without the "show clothes" on and all the product that goes into the show presentation. Then you might get a better idea of how much tearing you'll be dealing with on a daily basis. Some aren't always really bad, and if you simply wipe your dog's eyes daily and pin down what sorts of diet helps lessen the problem on the individual basis (filtered drinking water, fish oil, etc), it's not nearly as bad as you might think.

But I understand not wanting a dog with this problem. I spend my life picking crud out of the eyes of other people's dogs because they won't do it themselves. It's part of the bath routine: wet dog down, apply shampoo, pick out eye **** (if it's bad, rinse and repeat)... it's almost as much of a peeve as picking poop out of their butt hair (next step in the routine). :argh:


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

lavillerose said:


> When I met my breeder's dogs and the litter I was buying from at 5 weeks old, I noticed the texture immediately. As a groomer, I regularly get poodle pups with thin, wispy coats, which will develop into a thin wispy adult coat. My puppy's coat was thick and curly from the getgo. When she got her adult coat, it only got thicker, but not coarse. She's also black, though, and I've rarely seen this exact coat texture in a white, particularly in a toy.
> 
> As much as it sucks, tearing IS a genetic structural problem, and unfortunately it goes along with shrinking dogs down to toy size. You're lucky if you find a toy breed of any kind that _doesn't_ have a tearing issue, champion pedigrees or not. It's a product of trying to fit the eyeballs and brains and 42 teeth of a full sized canid into a very small space, there's not really much room left for sinuses and correctly structured tear ducts to fit. In other words, it's something that started hundreds of years ago, which is why today's breeders are telling you there's not much they can do about it now. Obviously, the point of breeding champions is trying to produce the ideal dog, but they're also only able to work with what has come before, which clearly isn't perfect.
> 
> ...


. I agree with her, the tear staining is just part of the package with a toy breed. Brachycephilac breeds also have tearing problems. If you want a poodle without this problem, get a standard or a mini...as long as you have good grooming habits (keep hair around the eyes clipped, bathe weekly, also a good diet helps.) they don't usually have too much of a problem. Also getting a darker color helps with the aesthetic aspect.  

As far as coat texture, you'll want a puppy that already has fairly thick, curly hair. The texture shouldn't be too soft either, it should be slightly "crisp" and stand up on its own fairly well. Although puppy fluff is always considerably softer then adult hair, so keep that in mind. That's how Trev's hair was when he was young and he has awesome adult hair...not so thick as to be terribly difficult to dry, brush, and scissor, but thick enough so that he looks velvety when I scissor him. He also has very crisp hair, especially on his body, his leg hair is a tad limper then I'd like, although I'm certainly not complaining. His hair also stands up very well, even when it gets longer. Good luck finding your dream puppy!!


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Thank you for the comments!

Sandooch, if I could find a toy puppy built like Gigi, but smaller, WOW! I'd be in heaven!  

Trev's also very gorgeous, I've enjoyed seeing the pictures that you guys have been posting of you babies! 

Perhaps I'll need to just keep my mind more open to considering a nice miniature. I don't know, we'll see!

As for teary eyes coming with the package of a toy breed, I'm just not so sure?... 

At work (vet clinic) we have three purbred maltese, a white "toy" breed dog, all from backyard breeders and not one has had any tear staining over the years. My employee has a mostly white Chihuhua that BARELY tops at 5lbs, again, not a mark. I have witnessed many pappillon and other chihuhuas, both long and short coat that just don't fit the bill for having teary eyes. I don't think it's a "toy dog" problem as many of these dogs are similar size to toy poodles, but rather it's a problem specifically in toy poodles in particular  

Looking at European toy poodles, the problem also seems to be much less. Their toys do seem to be on the larger end of the toy scale though and it seems to be easier to "win" with a larger dog who for all intents and purposes seems to be healthier than some I see getting wins and praises here in AKC and CKC. 

However I should just be quiet about the whole thing now as I know I am only arguing with myself, and it really isn't the biggest part about what makes a poodle a great dog is it?  

I posted the picture of the above pup more out of example and question than truly considering purchasing her. Perhaps if she was born to a different breeder I may be able to consider her as my next dog, however there are just way to many flags on this breeder. They have "12 dogs so they always have lots of pups to choose from" their prices are just way too low, and they didn't ask me any questions as a potential adopter other than which dogs did I think were "cutest". The father of these pups does have evidence of tear staining. So that and the possibility of sparse coat? nah... Just the fact that the breeder doesn't seem to be as "responsible" as I might like really made me turn cheek. 

Oh well, the search will continue for that perfect pup for our family.

Any more tips and tricks on judging coat in a pup would be appreciated!

Thanks again everyone!

Rebecca


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

pgr8dnlvr said:


> ...Trev's also very gorgeous, I've enjoyed seeing the pictures that you guys have been posting of you babies!...
> 
> As for teary eyes coming with the package of a toy breed, I'm just not so sure?...
> 
> ...


. Thank you, Trev thinks he's gorgeous too.  lol...

Not every single last toy dog has tearing problems...every dog is different. I have indeed met some Papillons, Chihuahuas, and Maltese without any tear stains. However, many of them do. I think that a lot depends on the environment, (water, allergens, etc.) grooming, and diet, as well as genetics and structure of course. My Lhasa has stains if I don't feed him Blue Buffalo. Found that out the hard way...I switched him to TOTW a few months ago and his pretty white face turned all brown. He's back on BB now and I should start seeing improvement here pretty soon as its been a month or so. All that to say, I DO hope that you can find a toy that doesn't stain too much.  it IS annoying for sure!!


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## WestCoastSpoo (May 11, 2011)

pgr8dnlvr said:


> I am far from expert, I know I know next to nothing, but I have common sense, and have worked in a vet clinic for 7 years now. It IS a genetic problem in A LOT of cases. all small white dogs do NOT have tear staining. In most cases it's a STRUCTURAL defect.


Sort of going off on a tangent here, but Huxley (spoo) had some tearing and staining when I brought him home at 8.5 weeks (he was eating a local brand of puppy kibble at the breeders which I couldn't find here) and as soon as I switched him to Horizon Legacy (also a dry kibble) the tearing/staining completely stopped and hasn't come back. I know there are some supplements too that are supposed to work to reduce tearing/staining. Is that just in standards? Is the staining that toys see a whole different ball game? When I took him to the vet for his 1st checkup after I brought him home the staining was there and the vet just said "well, at least he has darker hair under his eyes so the stains won't be as noticeable" - no mention of trying a different diet or anything so it was just randomly that I switched his diet and it stopped. So I don't think with Huxley at least it was a genetic/structural issue but something either in his old food or missing from that food that was causing it.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

Staining can be caused and/or fixed by a variety of things, it's a very individual issue. Many breeders of white dogs recommend giving filtered water to drink because (depending on your region) some tap water or wells have trace minerals that accelerate staining. Some dogs respond to antibiotic products like Angel Eye's, and some don't (and of course, some people don't want to keep their dogs on antibiotics all the time). Sometimes adding a supplement like fish oil helps. Sometimes all it is, is a dietary issue, and a change of food will clear it. I had a Bichon client that never had staining, then had to have both ACL blow out within a month of each other. The stress from that ordeal, the surgery, and possibly addition of the pain meds caused staining in the several months it took him to fully recover. Now a couple years down the line, the staining is gone again. So it really can be anything.

Tearing is not necessarily confined to toy dogs either, it was just mentioned because with small size and brachiocephalic faces, it does seem to be a more common issue with them. My parents' gigantic 85lb Spoo is has the biggest eye booger problem of all three poodles in our family. My mini has none.


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