# Service Dogs: Access and ADA Compliance Issues



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Since there are several people here who have poodles as service dogs or service dogs in training and we have great threads about training, but we don't have a specific discussion on legal issues related to service dogs I thought I would start one with the following item.

In my email this weekend was a message from my department chairperson regarding Javelin and accessibility in my workplace (a public community college, with a specific affirmative action officer whose responsibilities include ADA matters). The college has done tons of work to make itself ADA compliant and more safety savvy by replacing various doors, installing evacuation wheelchairs near stairwells, signage, AE defibrillators and the like. There are also sign language interpreters for students and deaf/hearing impaired faculty and we have a large Center for Students with Disabilities that provides testing and many other accommodations. Generally I think the institution does pretty well with this stuff. 

Back to my email and my problem. Attached to my chairperson's email was a form that she said the Affirmative Action Office requires me to complete. First off I think the form is not really needed since I have informed public safety, my department and my students about having a service dog in training accompany me on campus. In my informational messages to those people I told them he was doing public access training (in NYS dogs in training are granted full access) and that he would also be learning tasks to assist me. This is all the ADA requires and, in fact, all that it allows. I was pretty taken aback by the form and what it asks for. Here it is:

"Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) of 1990 requires employers to provide reasonable accommodations for qualified employees with disabilities. This form provides a standard written documentation of an employee’s request for reasonable accommodation and is to be submitted to the Affirmative Action, ADA/504 Officer. The form may be submitted via the Department Head/Supervisor or directly to the Affirmative Action, ADA/504 Officer. Completing this form is not a guarantee that the request will be granted. Approved accommodations are subject to annual review. 


Request From: _______________________________________ Date: __________________________ Position/Title: ______________________________________ Office Ext: ______________________ Department: __________________________________ Supervisor: ____________________________ Home Address: _______________________________________________________________________ ___________________ Home Phone: _____________________ Cell Phone: ______________________ PLEASE BRIEFLY ANSWER QUESTIONS 1-5 BELOW: (Continued on page 2 of form). 
1. *What is your disability? *What, if any, job function are you having difficulty performing? ____________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ 
2. How does your disability impact your daily living outside of work? ____________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ 
3. How does the disability impact your ability to perform your duties at work? ____________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ 
4. Describe what you think will help you effectively perform your job and how that accommodation will assist you. 
___________________________________________________________________________________


___________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________________ 


5. *Please list and attach your medical documentation, if available. Verification may be required. *




To be completed by Department Head/Supervisor: Would the requested accommodation, if granted, fundamentally alter the position or impact any other employee’s job duties or position? Yes [ ] No [ ] If yes, please explain and/or provide any other relevant information. 
____________________________________________ _______________________________ Signed: Department Head/Supervisor Date Print Name: Dept. Head/Supervisor _(The department supervisor is responsible for implementing the accommodation, subject to approval.) _



_______________________________ ________________________ _______________________ Signature of Employee Print/Type Employee Name Date Reviewed by AA Officer 
Action(s) taken: 


A. 

Interactive Process – Meeting held with Requestor and supervisor -- union representatives may be present. 
_____________________ _________ _________________________ _________ Date Initial Conference Date (if applicable) Initial 
Outcome: ____________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________ 
Granted/Approved __________________ C. Disapprove ______________________ 


B. 


__________________________ ______________ Craig Wright, ADA/504 Officer Date 
*Approved accommodations are subject to annual review, and may require resubmitting of medical documentation and/or update request form."


Are they kidding!!!!!!!! Don't they understand what they can and cannot ask? I particularly take issue with the first question and the 5th question (I highlighted red, but also think it is unfair to my department chair to ask her to be the arbiter of the "Interactive Process" since she is not an expert on disabilities or the ADA.


I wrote an email to the affirmative action officer and told him that under the ADA only allows the college to ask if the dog is needed because of a disability and what work or tasks the dog is trained (in this case being trained) to perform. I told him that indeed the dog is doing work because of a disability and told him the tasks that are being trained. I told him I beleieved that my email complied with my obligations under the ADA and I attached the ADA service dog requirements page from https://www.ada.gov /service_animals_2010.htm so that they can read what is actually allowed. I also said that I would be continuing to bring Javelin to work with me and that I hoped the information I had provided would helpt the institution to be in better compliance. Privately I wonder how many students who wanted to have service dogs with them have been either tricked into giving information they didn't need to or who have not brought their working dogs with them to campus because of this form.



Let's use this thread to talk about these kinds of service dog issues. I know there are plenty of people with lots of expertise here.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

New York Laws on Service Dogs and Emotional Support Animals in Public Places | Nolo.com
I found on an FAQ site, that service animals in training are not considered covered under the ADA. Dogs in training seem to be included under your state laws.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Mfmst, yes there are differences between the ADA and various state laws. Fortunately for me New York State does treat in training service dogs with the same access rights with their handlers that the ADA grants. But putting that aside the ADA is very clear that a person cannot be asked about the nature of their disability, nor can the dog be asked to demonstrate the tasks. It is only allowed to ask if the animal is needed for a person's disability and what specific tasks it does (or in New York is being trained to do). The other questions being asked on the college's form are not allowed under either federal or state statutes. 

Our very dear friend who has come to the Indy 500 with us the past two years is a career (non-political) attorney who has worked on ADA compliance for several Federal agencies, most recently the Department of Justice. I have a good person watching my back on this.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

WOW! Do let us know the results!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rt-disabled-girl-wonder-service-dog/98214948/
This case came to mind. The poor kid was humiliated by having to demonstrate Wonder's assistance tasks in the rest room in front of an audience. Your college needs to review its form, pronto.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

where i am, ada trumps anything else. basic question boils down to can you establish a nexus between disability and what the dog/service animal does. a doctor's note is normally not required when something is obvious, as in a guide dog for someone blind, but may be requested when it is not obvious what the issue is. i rewrote our house rules to make that very clear. a renter in my condo association tried to sue ($50k) because her claimed seizure alert dog was not allowed everywhere off leash. i provided written testimony that i saw her rollerskating yards ahead of her off leash dog. how does a dog alert to a seizure onset in that situation. she lost her case - and the investigating officer was very sympathetic to her and biased against my hoa. another former board member tried the same kind of argument re why his pug should be allowed to follow him around off leash. we shut him down, too.

it's important to note that there is a difference between being asked to provide an accommodation in a housing situation and a public access one. it's a fine line, but i believe there is one. in both situations, there is no requirement that a misbehaving animal be tolerated, no matter what the person's disability is.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

patk an out of control dog is not required to be allowed access, although a service dog can be off leash if it under the verbal or signaled control of the person it works for. The nature of a person's disability is absolutely off limits though under both the ADA and New York law. The ADA also makes it clear that the dog cannot be asked to perform a demonstration of its tasks, so that case involving the girl who had to show how her dog helped her in the bathroom is clearly wrong too.

I will update when I have answers. I do also hope that we can have ongoing discussions of how people here fare with issues like this one.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

here's the language from the doj disability rights section guidance:

*Q7. What questions can a covered entity's employees ask to determine if a dog is a service animal?* 
*A*. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability.


call me nitpicky, but despite the prohibitive language, it seems that being able to ask what task a dog is trained to perform is getting close to asking about the disability. it's a fine line. the questions one is permitted to ask get tougher when the concepts embodied in the ada are invoked within the parameters of the fair housing act. 

does your college have dormitories? because it looks like the questionnaire was set up for a housing situation.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

patk, no we are entirely a commuter campus. And yes, asking what the service animal does certainly gives big hints about the nature of the disability. It is a situation with many complexities, but that request form is not complex, it is just way out of bounds.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

it looks like a form someone worked up based on the fha, which does permit asking for a doctor's certificate if there is a question about the disability. of course ny law ins and outs may have some impact as well. it's good you have the benefit of an experienced lawyer as a friend.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I wish my program director was here to answer your question but I've been poking in service dog forum and it seems like certain places have limited ADA rights. There was a quiz about it and I was a bit surprised by some of the grey areas. I know for housing they can ask you specific questions even deny your program certified service dog if there is a behavior question. I do remember that someone had a question about their apartment asking them for their specific disability and I believe the consensus was they could ask that. To be honest I can't remember the entire thread, they have a lot of questions like this on service dog central forum. The forum you have above does seem to have some very invasive questions. I do know that businesses cannot ask you these questions in person. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

It's a little old, but here's some information about service dogs at work. Reasonable Accommodation and Assistance Dogs in the Workplace

Also, send along the reasons a disabled person with a service animal can legally be asked to leave.

1. Dog is not housebroken.
2. Dog is barking out of control.
3. Dog is not under handler's control.

Let them know you are aware of both sides of this issue, not just what a service dog is, but that you know your responsibilities as a handler, too. And, I agree, that form needs updating.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

snow my campus is non-residential so none of the issues related to housing remotely apply either, and even if there were dorms I don't see how it could apply to me since I am a classroom faculty member and would have nothing to do with residence life even if we had such.


Here is the body of the email I sent. I think I covered the points you made Click-N-Treat. My next point with him if he raises it in response is the in service vs. in training issue, which in New York is a non-issue.


"My chairperson told me she had a discussion with you regarding my service dog in training and that you want me to complete the form titled Request for Reasonable Accommodation. I have looked at this form and believe that there are questions there that are not allowed to be asked in the context of the ADA. Specifically I cannot be asked what the nature of my disability is, nor can I be required to provide medical documentation regarding such. It is only allowable to ask if the dog is required because of a disability and what work or tasks the dog is trained to do. This dog is simultaneously being trained for public access and to do specific tasks (see below). Please see the first bullet of the section titled "Inquiries, Exclusions, Charges and Other Specific Rules Related to Service Animals" attachment from https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm


The first bullet is relevant to this situation and clearly makes, at the very least, questions 1 and 5 on this form into violations of the ADA regarding service animals ("Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.") I will tell you the following information as is allowed by the ADA. I am training this dog to do specific mobility related tasks for me as necessitated by my disability (specifically to stand steady (brace) for me when rising and to pick up dropped objects so that I do not have to bend to retrieve things from the floor). The dog has an AKC Canine Good Citizen title and is housebroken, always leashed and under my control. The information I have provided is all that can be legally required of me. If you require that I complete the form I will only provide the information I have provided here. For the college to require further information violates my rights under the ADA and I will seek legal remedy should I be asked to surrender my rights. It is not my intention to be a contrarian regarding this situation, but rather to point out faults in the college's request form and offer a chance to resolve those faults within the institution and its offices. I hope that this will lead to more appropriate efforts by the college to comply with the ADA in both its letter and spirit. In the interim I believe I have complied with the law and will continue to bring the dog with me to provide assistance while I am at work and in other places."


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

lily i did a prelim search re ada & service animals in the workplace. is there any state law that is applicable? because apparently it is treated differently than a public access accommodation under the ada.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Under NY statues, service animals in training are covered


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

And the rub in this is that my workplace is a public space since it is a SUNY affiliated campus. 

I have not yet received any reply from the affirmative action officer to whom my email was addressed. I am guessing he is asking the college attorney what he should say. In the meantime I did run into my union president and had conversation with him about what was happening. He asked that I give him the details so I forwarded the correspondence to him. One of the other union officers is a faculty member in the Center for Students with Disabilities so he was going to ask her what happens when students need service dogs with them.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

I got very lucky with my current job as all I had to do was tell them I needed Jazz and then discussed with them where she would stay while I worked and how I would handle her need for potty breaks. 

I left the last job as the new manager flat out told me I could no longer bring her to work. 

Unfortunately many want to be students are given such a hard time about bringing their service dogs to school they give up school rather then spend spoons fighting for their legal rights. The harassment is so common that when a friend recently applied at a new school she was shocked by them actually following the laws and asking only the legal questions and a few legitimate ones like how will you handle the lab classes you must take? Her last school was a constant battle and she did drop out for a number of years before getting up the courage to try again.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

from what i've read, in the case of an employee's service dog there are a couple of issues that differ from public access: 1) you have to ask for the accommodation 2) the employer has the right to ask for documentation of the need for accommodation if it's not obvious 3) the accommodation can be denied if the cost to the employer is prohibitive and 4) consideration has to be given to other employees (who may have dog allergies, for example).

you can see the attempt to balance employer rights and the rights of the disabled, which is fine, because the eeoc outlook is still that employers have an obligation to work out a needed accommodation (whether or not it has to do with a service animal) whenever possible. 

i think people should be aware that there is a current bill that passed out of the house judiciary cmtee on the 7th that is intended to dilute the ada - hr620. here's a write up about it from may: https://rewire.news/article/2017/05/30/americans-disabilities-act-attack-congress/


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

spindledreams, thank you for adding those other people's experiences along with your own to this discussion. The point about students is a large part of why I am so bothered by this. I know the ADA provisions and made sure that I would be able to comply with them and those of New York State before Javelin ever came to campus with me. I will do what I need to to deal with this, but I am really concerned about how students would respond if given this form. Would they provide information that they are not required to or would they not come to this college (where we have excellent support services for students with disabilities? Either way there are big problems.

ETA, since you were posting while I was writing patk, I did ask/tell my employer through my chairperson and the chief of public safety of my requirements and my chairperson acknowledged that request favorably. Our collective mistake seems to have been to not include the college's affirmative action officer who is also responsible for ADA compliance. It doesn't make sense to me that an employer should have a more intrusive right to ask for documentation than a business owner. Medical information is private (and protected in other ways, such as HIPA) and asking for documentation of a disability seems intrusive, especially in an environment where there is an otherwise well established relationship between the employer and the employee. In this instance allergies should not be a concern since we are talking poodle and there is no cost to my employer since they are not being asked to install a ramp or any other equipment. All of those things are already present on campus because it has done the things it needed to to make all of the facilities here ADA compliant. The piece you linked to about HR620 is disturbing since it clearly takes very simple and straightforward procedures and makes it more difficult for people with disabilities to exercise their rights of access.


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## PSD17 (Sep 5, 2017)

*Service Dog*

Sorry, this is not a direct answer to the ADA thread, but I wanted to check in with people who have a service dog or who are training one. I am planning on getting a miniature poodle as a service dog. I'm in Northern California and wondered if anyone has any input on a breeder recommendations. I see Clarion, Black Pearl, Midnight. Temperament is key, obviously. I think trainability is built in with a poodle : ) ANY help or advice at all is welcome. I plan on going to a trainer to assist with obedience and PAT, but to train myself for my particular needs. I don't know anyone else with a service dog, so as I say, any advice, suggestions are welcome. Thank you.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

PSD17 said:


> Sorry, this is not a direct answer to the ADA thread, but I wanted to check in with people who have a service dog or who are training one. I am planning on getting a miniature poodle as a service dog. I'm in Northern California and wondered if anyone has any input on a breeder recommendations. I see Clarion, Black Pearl, Midnight. Temperament is key, obviously. I think trainability is built in with a poodle : ) ANY help or advice at all is welcome. I plan on going to a trainer to assist with obedience and PAT, but to train myself for my particular needs. I don't know anyone else with a service dog, so as I say, any advice, suggestions are welcome. Thank you.




Honestly, a puppy that passes all the qualifications as a puppy doesn't necessarily mean a slam dunk service dog. Training your own dog requires a lot of work literally everyday for the first two years of its life. Most people don't have the time and it would be easier getting placed by a program. Even then, it is a maintenance process. 
I do believe poodles as a breed make excellent service dogs. Ive seen as many poodles as retrievers as service dogs in public places like airports, Disney, or grocery stores. The only issue is finding one willing to please because very smart breeds sometimes require counter condition work. This is probably why you don't see many border collies. I think independence vs willing to please varies inversely to each other. 


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> It doesn't make sense to me that an employer should have a more intrusive right to ask for documentation than a business owner. Medical information is private (and protected in other ways, such as HIPA) and asking for documentation of a disability seems intrusive, especially in an environment where there is an otherwise well established relationship between the employer and the employee. In this instance allergies should not be a concern since we are talking poodle and there is no cost to my employer since they are not being asked to install a ramp or any other equipment. All of those things are already present on campus because it has done the things it needed to to make all of the facilities here ADA compliant. The piece you linked to about HR620 is disturbing since it clearly takes very simple and straightforward procedures and makes it more difficult for people with disabilities to exercise their rights of access.


i suspect the 'right' to ask for evidence of a non-apparent disability is related to all the other things - such as the right to refuse an accommodation that is very costly to the business. it really is, however, the same standard applicable to housing under the fha. even though my condo association is pet friendly, we have had people try to get around the limitation of two pets by claiming a third dog is a service or emotional support animal. when i rewrote our house rules, i removed the distinction between pets and service/support animals by simply calling them all domestic animals - but left an opening for the hoa to consider exceptions. that would pretty much require some degree of medical disclosure supported by a physician. the problem is almost always that there are non-qualified persons who want to twist the rules to suit their preferences; they make it so much harder for those who truly need an accommodation. 

anyway, it sounds as though things will work out well at your school, though that form could use a bit of massaging to send a less obstructive, more understanding message.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

patk, yes in a world where many people will try to game the system I suppose the rules have to raise the bar to try to thwart the cheaters and gamers. At one of the workshops I attended in August one of our lunch conversations was devoted to the idea of people with "fake" service dogs ruining it for folks with legitimate needs for service dogs. One person spoke of getting on a flight and finding a beautifully groomed Saluki sitting in its own seat next to its "disabled" handler. She has been a conformation handler of many breeds for decades and she said clearly this dog was a breed ring dog and that the handler was a faker. That is the kind of behavior that makes airlines and other entities not want to believe people about their legitimate service animals.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

PSD17, check out the Diabetes Alert Dog training thread for a lot of the ups downs bumps bruises about training a poodle Service Dog. http://www.poodleforum.com/23-gener...21474-diabetes-alert-dog-training-update.html

It's an ongoing journal of mine about training Noelle from a raw recruit into a service dog.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I hate fake service dogs. The idea that someone's unruly dog could startle us in a store and hurt Noelle scares me a lot. I mean, a lot. Noelle is 22 pounds. An aggressive dog could kill her. It's hard enough avoiding them on the street, but when I'm in a public place, i have to look around. Also, I get accused of faking. Anyone who has read my thread on this forum knows better. One of the reasons I have this public thread is if I ever got sued, there's a record of Noelle's training in tasks, obedience, and public access. 

Lily, I hope you find a resolution with your job. You don't deserve the added stress.


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

I've been wondering if this issue was ever resolved for you?


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I've been wondering the same thing. Is there an update?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I did eventually fill out the part of the form that I thought were in compliance with what could be asked and am still waiting for final resolution. In the meantime I am still bringing Javelin with me and finding new challenges almost every day, like last week when he barked a couple of times at a friend whom he has know since he was a puppy (granted he shouldn't bark, but we are working on it). A guy whose office is a couple of hundred feet down a long hall came out of his office and started screaming at me about how annoying the barking was, how I was a faker just looking to have a pet with me and how I had yelled at his son about skate boarding in the hall (which I don't think I did even though skateboarding on campus is illegal), so I had no right to tell him that why I had the dog with me was none of his business. On that front I went to get into the elevator today and he was in it already. He told me it was going down (our offices are up). I got in anyway saying it was no big deal to go down then back up, which I am happy to say seems to have given this man the chance to tell me he was sorry for his outburst last week, with the explanation that he was having a terrible day that day. I told him that I had been very upset by how vicious his words had felt to me, but that I was happy to now call it water under the bridge. We were together in the elevator long enough for me to also explain something about why I need the dog and that my life would be simpler on so many fronts if I could walk out the door without him.

I also met someone at the elevator later in the day who asked me questions about therapy and service dogs, explaining she had a puppy and she had asked her vet about how to be able to get the puppy to be a service dog to which the vet had replied "send these people $79 and they will send you a certificate!" Really from a vet?!? The woman is a student and I introduced myself, told her where my office was and to pay me a visit sometime so I could explain the realities to her. Hopefully she will show up sometime.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Oh dear. I am glad you were able to patch things up that man. If you see that student, and I hope you do, please get the name of her vet. I will fly to New York and make an appointment so I can explain a few things. A mail order service dog certificate is the same as a mail order doctorate. Yes, I can pay a fee, get a diploma and start calling myself Dr. Click-N-Treat, but that doesn't make me a doctor. 

I'm so frustrated by this I am about to dust off my public speaking abilities and start a tour talking to business owners about fake service dogs and how to protect their businesses from fraudsters. And how to welcome real service dogs. GAH! Pay a fee to get a service dog certificate from a vet who should know better? Grumble grumble, rant, grumble grumble.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I do really hope she shows up at my office. I see it not only as a chance to help her understand the difference between a pet and a service dog, but to encourage her to do something really wonderful with her pup and get it off to a great start in life. She also asked what therapy dogs did so maybe I can encourage her in that direction. She did ask me a couple of times about what kinds of dogs get to go everywhere, so I am guessing her pup is a small breed or toy designer and that she could be a take it everywhere in a bag type. I hate that, especially if the person claiming that the snarling little thing struggling to bite my face is a service dog. Since I meet a whole crop of new students three times a year among the benefits of having Javelin with me working is being able to help people understand why service dogs are important and hopefully to discourage people from faking.


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

I completely understand your dislike for people falsely claiming their dogs as service dogs. I agree with you. It's wrong on many levels, the simplest and most basic being that it is wrong to tell a lie. However, not everyone who carries their pooch in a bag is attempting to be deceitful, and not all small dogs in bags are yappy. Lizzy is a very petite mini, weighs less than 10 pounds, and I have a bag that I frequently carry her in when I go shopping. She loves to go with me, snuggles into her bag, and never makes a peep. Because she is in her bag, there is no concern that she will "make a mess" while in the store. I never try to take her in a restaurant, and I also avoid taking her into grocery stores. If I'm asked, I'm completely honest about the fact that she is not a service dog. If then told she cannot be in the store, I apologize and leave without making a fuss. However, this has only happened twice in the year that I have been taking her places. Almost always, she is greeted with a smile, and a request to pet her. In fact, it was seeing the real pleasure that her presence seemed to bring to people that made me decide to pursue her therapy dog certification. (She's got her CGC, but our local therapy dog organization won't evaluate until the dogs are 18 months old, so she hasn't been evaluated yet. We're still working on the training so we'll be ready.)


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

A few weeks ago I saw a toy poodle with a service dog vest at Whole Foods. This tiny dog was sitting inside a shopping cart. I thought the dog was cute but afterwards realized this is not good etiquette. Small dogs who are service dogs aren't suppose to be inside bags, carts, or chairs. Even if they did a particular kind of alerting, they can do so from the ground on a leash. I don't have a problem with small dogs in bags or strollers but only if they are pets. 
I know a lot of people with small dog phobia or dislike and last week at the vet, I met the worst behaved dog in my life. It was a small Maltese that had a serious aggression towards people and dogs. I've never seen a growl that aggressive before. If this was a big dog, it probably would have gotten put down. I think small dogs are capable of the same obedience level as large dogs and can make excellent SD but many owners let them get away with wildly inappropriate behavior due to their size.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Lizzy'sMom I am sorry to have painted small dogs in bags with such a broad brush. You are the model of appropriateness, but we all know that isn't the always the case as snow's story illustrates.


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> Lizzy'sMom I am sorry to have painted small dogs in bags with such a broad brush. You are the model of appropriateness, but we all know that isn't the always the case as snow's story illustrates.


I wasn't offended. Your posting has always shown you to be a fair and reasonable person.  And, yes, certainly I have seen my share of yappy, snarly small dogs, and I don't like them either! Just had to speak up for those of us - even if we're possibly in the minority! - who carry our small dogs responsibly.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

lily cd re, I've been following this thread and hope you can make positive changes with your university. Did you show this form to your friend who is an attorney (who has worked on ADA compliance for several Federal agencies) and did you get their feedback on how to proceed?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Skylar, no haven't shown him the form yet. I answered the parts that I believed to be allowable to ask and am waiting for a response from the college's ADA person. He has had an electronic copy since late last Wednesday and a paper copy since Thursday, but as of noon neither I nor my chairperson (who signed indicating her approval) has had any answer. I figured I would wait until I get a reply from the college before I ask my friend about it all.


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

Hi y'all. I am hopeful that it works out for you Lily. I know we hit some massive roadblocks here with Remington, and while the district level was accepting it was the school that was not. I was very disappointed in my boss, who was ready to fire me. I hope all resolves better for you!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well there is finally a bit of movement although I am not sure in what direction. I got an email that the Affirmative Action Officer wants to meet with me. That is all that it said aside from the phone number to call to set up the meeting.

I'll let you know how it goes.


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

crossing my fingers for you!


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Thanks for the update. I'm hoping for the best.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I got the meeting scheduled for Tuesday afternoon. Keep positive thoughts for me around 2:30 PM eastern time.


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

Thinking about you today, Catherine! Hope your meeting goes well...please let us know as soon as you're able!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thank you so much for thinking of us. The meeting is at 2:30 so keep your good vibes going around that time. I am planning to leave Javelin home today since I don't think I want to bring him to meet someone new and have a big elevator ride to get there and have him too jazzed up for it. The person I am meeting with is someone who I regard as a gentleman so hopefully it will be smooth sailing. I'll be back to let you know how it goes in the late afternoon or early evening.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Definitely sending good vibes - and also crossing all fingers and toes to help this meeting go as you hope.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

*The meeting that wasn't!*

I am frustrated. I have a cold and I stayed home yesterday because of it. I would have also stayed home today since I only have one lecture and it would have been easy to adjust my schedule, but I went to campus specifically for this meeting with the ADA officer. I went straight to class when I got to campus and then straight to the meeting. His secretary told me she had left voice messages at home and on my office phone and had emailed me but that was all approximately one hour before the appointment we had made last week. She told me he left early because he didn't feel well. She didn't want to reschedule for tomorrow since she wasn't sure he would be in, so I made sure she understood that I was a bit put off since I had come in also not "feeling well (I actually feel pretty wiped out from schlepping around in heat and humidity at the hottest part of the day)" specifically to take this meeting. I told her I would call during my office hour later in the day tomorrow. If he is there hopefully we can just talk on the phone.


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

That sucks! I hope you feel better soon!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It does suck, doesn't it? How does barely an hour's notice constitute sufficient advance notice to cancel a meeting unless it is for a true emergency? I thought about not going to work today and had I decided not to go I would have called his office by about 10:00 AM to tell him we needed to reschedule.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

That is not professional or courteous behavior. His office should have contacted you first thing in the morning, as soon as they learned her would not come in.

Hope you're feeling better soon.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Apparently he was on campus, but went home one hour or less before our scheduled meeting, since I know he was at a meeting that ook place before my class. Also our class schedules are on file in several places so he or his secretary could have known that I was in class at the time she left her messages. I would have stayed and taken the meeting and then gone home since the advance warning wasn't adequate.


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

Oh, how frustrating! And, rude. Keep us posted.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

On the positive side, perhaps he feels that this meeting not that big a deal... as in not worth worrying about. I know it is hard to imagine, but his perspective could very well be that the points you have made are valid and should be corrected. Cancelling the meeting like he did is unprofessional, but I don't think it has anything to do with the issue. Just in case, (oh ye of little faith) document and keep records of all meetings and their cancellations. Keeping my fingers crossed that the poor guy just has a worse case of whatever got you.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks for that perspective on the cancellation Charmed. I had a bit of worry associated with it and felt really frustrated when I got there and found he had gone home. I really hold his secretary to task for not figuring out how to notify me in a meaningful and effective way. She could have called my department, or any of a couple of other places to find out where I was and have the message delivered to me at my classroom. They track down students they need to talk to by sending campus safety with messages for them all the time. Hopefully I can just talk to him on the phone today and leave this issue behind us.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

After one more little bit of fits and starts we finally took that meeting today. His secretary called my office and left a message to see if I could come at 2:30 instead of 3:00 (which since I had class until 2:15 I didn't get in time to really make that work). Then I saw the person who I was meeting with at 3:00 down the hall in my building at 2:30 with someone from my department who I have a long and bad history with, so I was worried that the person from my department had been whispering in his ear about Javelin and his take on my situation.

I got to the ADA/AAO just before 3:00 and after a little bit of a tense start it actually went pretty well. It is clear that he wants to give me the right to have Javelin with me but he does want some sort of a letter (not with specifics on records or diagnoses) from a doctor stating that the assistance I hope Javelin will train for successfully would be useful to me so that he can counter any complaint from a person on campus with the answer that he has evidence that Javelin's presence is to assist me. I told him that I couldn't produce that right away since I will have to get an appointment to talk to the doctor about the letter and what it needs to say, but that I would take care of it. I was assured that the letter would be kept locked in the safe in the ADA/AAO office and that the only person who has access to the office when the director is not in his office is the chief of public safety and that confidentiality would be protected.

He did tell me that there was a person in my department who had indicated he did not want to be in contact with Javelin because he is allergic to dogs and has asthma. Okay, I can understand that if it is true, but if so then why not just talk to me like a decent person rather than to go outside my department and behind my back? When I went back to my department I asked my chairperson if she knew who had voiced the concerns and she did tell me who it is. I have known this person for well over ten years, have worked closely with him during that time and actually he has met both Lily and Javelin in the past and never sought to avoid them. I also believe his parents have long had dogs, so I kind of think he is BSing, but that shouldn't really be my problem. His odd behavior in this does explain why he hasn't done some of the work he is normally supposed to do for me this semester, but then again there is odd history with this person and various other members of my department over time. 

I did ask the person I was meeting with how to proceed in the interim until I got the letter to him and he told me to proceed as I have been and to bring Javelin with me to work. He said he actually wished I had brought him to the meeting so he could see him. Since he told me that I should call him when I had the letter for him so that he could pick it up (specifically he told me not to put it in the inter office mail) I told him I would make sure that I had Javelin with me when he stopped by to get it.

Now if only I could get Javelin to stop barking at pedestrians in the parking lot we might get somewhere with all of this. He has gotten a lot better at negotiating crowded halls. I still have to say leave for some of the people we pass, but not all. He is being a gem in class. He sleeps near me in lecture (lightly though since if I walk away he pops up to see what I am doing). Last night when he stood up I gave him a drop signal and he laid right back down. Being able to leave him on a down stay in lab would help me out a bit since the space at the student benches is a little tight in some classes so last night not having him trail after me right away was good progress. I did spend some time sitting with one of my lab groups in the afternoon yesterday so that I could label some materials for them (two people out of four were absent). Javelin was lying behind where I was sitting and a number of people passed by him by stepping over him with him remaining on the down, so that was really good on his part as well.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I have a letter from my audiologist & ENT indicating my hearing problems. I keep in my filing cabinet just in case anyone gives me trouble. I had thought they only required a letter from a doctor if you were flying or needed an ESA, which is not a service dog. I could be wrong. 
Clearly, your poodles are your babies and super important to you. It feels like your coworkers are well aware. Whenever in a situation like this, I always want to know "why" to get closure but it is better to focus on the "what". It is important for you to protect yourself carefully. My trainer said that most places will not give you a hard time if your dog is trained and certified by an institution/ 501c3. Perhaps you could look to apply and enroll him in a local program like me and Lucky. I do know some programs won't take a dog over 2 years but Javey is already very well trained.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Whew. I'm glad that meeting went well. I can understand them wanting a doctor's note, and I am glad they will be protecting it confidentially. The person is acting weird... sigh. Sometimes you have to let other people whirl. Do you have to work closely with this person? I sure hope not.

It sounds like Javelin is doing well. You're a great trainer, and I knew he'd do fantastic. With a few more weeks of repetition, he'll have everything sorted during labs. Barking at pedestrians though... 

Javvy, Noelle has something important she would like to tell you.

Dear Javvy,

This is Noelle. When the cape goes on the mouth goes shut. I learneded that the hard way. My mom issued what she called a level 47 correction when I barked. She was so mad at me that I never dooed that again. You don't want to know what a level 47 correction is like, so just remember what I said. When the cape goes on the mouth goes shut. 

Thank you, Noelle. I'm a R+ kind of trainer 95% of the time. The other 5%... Let's just say Noelle learned in 10 seconds that barking was extremely forbidden. It wasn't fun, it wasn't pretty, I probably freaked out a few strangers in the process. But, Noelle learned real quick I wasn't playing around. When you're kind and gentle 95% of the time, that 5% has a serious impact. 

If you want to be nicer, you already know what to do. Two weeks of look at that should help him stop barking at pedestrians, by giving him something rewarding to do with all that poodle energy. 

However, if you do decide on a level 47 correction, make sure you do it where no one you will ever see again is watching. It's a scary sight. Leash pop, grab mouth roughly, "NO BARKING!!!!!!!!! WHY ARE YOU BARKING! NO BARKING! NO!" Noelle thought I was scary scary scary. Cape goes on, the mouth goes shut. I'm laughing now, but it wasn't funny then. Poor Noelle crouched into a poodle slink, ears down, tail down, body low. Mom wasn't kidding around. Got the point across, though, and fixed the problem. Sometimes one solid correction is worth a thousand little ones.

I'm glad you get to have Javelin help you at work. He's going to grow into his job and amaze you. I know it. I just... know. And I can't wait to hear how he does. Go Javelin, go!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Noelle, thank you for your advice. My mom yelled at me big time yesterday when I barked a people walking past our truck. I will try really hard, but I suspect my mom may get to a level 47 correction (which sounds very unpleasant) since I find it very hard not to bark at those people walking around our truck. 

The person who is acting weird is just weird, always has been and seems always will be. He preps one of my courses and as long as he has set everything up properly and sends the part time person to check during class that it is all right then he can stay away from my lab and I probably will be happier for it.

The ADA person who I met with didn't indicate that he would not allow Javelin but just needs a letter so he can say to anyone who asks/complains that he has verified my need for having him with me. He will be a self trained service dog, assuming I can get him past the bumpy spots of car travel and improve his focus in the halls. I am very happy with how he does in my classes so far.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

The person who is acting weird is also a saboteur, don’t forget that. I wouldn’t bother with a confrontation, just get the letter and know there’s a snake in the grass.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Mfmst is right about a saboteur. Remember Brene Brown's advice, "Don't try to win over the haters, you are not the jackass whisperer." Avoid, avoid.

As far as hallway manners, it's tough for people because poodles are so attractive. Noelle's problem is she's cute and adorable. Javelin's problem is he's drop dead gorgeous. So, people are always going to go aw at him. Leave it is useful, but there's an even better cue to help both your dog and the stranger. Ready for a secret?

Javelin (and Lucky!) need to learn "No flirting!" You know when he's flirting. A stranger approaches and he starts poodle high stepping, leaning out to look at an approaching person. Hey there good looking.

"No flirting!"
He stops flirting and looks at you, you walk past the stranger together.

The secret trick behind No flirting is this... You reward no flirting heavily at home. Load No Flirting as Javelin's super awesome treat jackpot from heaven cue. No dog food for this trick. Go to the grocery store and buy a chuck steak. About three bucks, up to the right or left of the good steaks. Grill it rare. Chop tiny. Always say, No flirting in a serious voice, but pair those words with steak. Pavlov style this until "No flirting" will make him turn his head thinking, yum, steak.

Now, here's how it looks in action. A stranger is approaching Javelin, eyeing him like omg a standard poodle what a beautiful dog, I want to hug him. Javelin notices this approaching stranger and begins high stepping. Why don't you come up and see me sometime?

"No flirting!"

Whoosh, his head turns to you. Why would I want hamburger when I can have steak at home? 

Double win, no flirting applies to the stranger as well as the dog. The stranger thinks the dog is in trouble and ignores him.

You walk past the stranger and heavily reward at the end of the encounter.

She shoots, she scores!

In crowds, I trained Noelle with no flirting, and also with the quick zigzag maneuver. Zigzag means, pay attention because we're gonna move in a dozen directions around people together, ready go. Zigzag is a dance move in heel position, and I swear it's what I say most in public. I love zigzag as a cue. 

By the end of the semester, Javelin will have things more cemented. By the end of next semester it'll be even better. When summer comes, you'll develop telepathy. When that happens, you'll loose your breath. Noelle is 11 months into this adventure and telepathy is developing. The bond between service dog and handler is intense and unique. You are on your way to a magical place. Enjoy the journey. The destination is beyond beautiful. Go team! Go!


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

oh I love those cues! They went right on my list for Cole. Hopefully he will be my girls successor. Her pay attention to me cue is Your Working but I like stop flirting better. AND at only 20 inches tall Cole is a cute and handsome black abstract. ....


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Noelle is 18 inches at the withers, another little one, like your Cole. I hope you can use these cues. They're so handy.

No flirting admonishes the person approaching and the dog, so it's a double whammy cue. And fun to train. Also, no flirting tends to make people laugh.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Lucky does not have a problem with flirting in crowds. He does not have much interest in other people or dogs. This is more of a Kit problem. Lucky does well in crowds and never barks. His issue is getting accustomed to a wide range of space. He dislikes places that are echoey, stinky, or where the ground moves. We’ve practiced in a number of places but it is an ongoing process.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Mfmst said:


> The person who is acting weird is also a saboteur, don’t forget that. I wouldn’t bother with a confrontation, just get the letter and know there’s a snake in the grass.



Absolutely. This person typifies "tail wagging dog" and this dog will not pay any attention to the tail. My chairperson and I had a lengthy conversation about this person and his most immediate coworker. They are the latest iteration of a long standing problem in our department.

Right now I have been using "he's working" as a way to ward off the people who he is getting involved with, but I also have used stop flirting with people he knows and is very flirty with. It is improving, but Click-N-Treat I think you are right that I have to load it up better. His responses are weak, I need to make his response good enough that people will wonder if he is in danger of whiplash! Time to break out some good jackpots. Same for the BS in the car.


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

Catherine, I'm glad this issue appears to be well on its way to being resolved in your favor!


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

Good to hear that your meeting wasn't a disaster and that overall it went well enough. 

Hopefully, the snake stays hidden in the tall grasses and never comes out to strike. Always frustrating when one bad apple ruins it for the rest. And like you said you wish he would have just said something to you instead of going through bureaucratic means. Fortunately, it seems like the bureaucracy is on your side for now.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Well things sound like they are moving in your favor and that is GOOD NEWS!!!!!!!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

The bottom line with the snake in the grass is that he is a passive aggressive person (his pic could be there with the definition of the term). I am not the only person he does this to, so I consider myself in good company with the others who have to deal with his weirdness. 

Thanks everyone for your support.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

good ending to this one, catherine. you are legal and no one can say otherwise. that's all that matters. i'll bet your interlocutor was relieved, too, that he didn't have to tell you you couldn't bring javelin to the campus. i still say they need to massage their approach, though. it's possible to ask for justification without seeming accusatory and upsetting people.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

He did say that he would have the question about asking for specifics on disability reevaluated. So that should make this easier for people in the future.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

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lily cd re said:


> He did say that he would have the question about asking for specifics on disability reevaluated. So that should make this easier for people in the future.


That is good, hopefully you’ve made a positive difference.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

As far as keeping your letter from the doctor confidential... I guess it has to be that way for institutions. When I was the intake person for service dog team information, we made it a policy for the intake and mentor to both look at the note (with client present). We then checked off, and signed that the note had been read. The note was handed back to the client; no copies were made. This was the safest way, we could come up with, of keeping the information private. We needed to know the medical information for training purposes, but we did not want that letter to be in an office where multiple people would have access to it. If we ever needed to produce the letter, we knew who had it.


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## service dog vera (Sep 14, 2021)

lily cd re said:


> Since there are several people here who have poodles as service dogs or service dogs in training and we have great threads about training, but we don't have a specific discussion on legal issues related to service dogs I thought I would start one with the following item.
> 
> In my email this weekend was a message from my department chairperson regarding Javelin and accessibility in my workplace (a public community college, with a specific affirmative action officer whose responsibilities include ADA matters). The college has done tons of work to make itself ADA compliant and more safety savvy by replacing various doors, installing evacuation wheelchairs near stairwells, signage, AE defibrillators and the like. There are also sign language interpreters for students and deaf/hearing impaired faculty and we have a large Center for Students with Disabilities that provides testing and many other accommodations. Generally I think the institution does pretty well with this stuff.
> 
> ...


That is shocking and such an egregious violation of the ADA 
-SD handler


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## service dog vera (Sep 14, 2021)

lily cd re said:


> I did eventually fill out the part of the form that I thought were in compliance with what could be asked and am still waiting for final resolution. In the meantime I am still bringing Javelin with me and finding new challenges almost every day, like last week when he barked a couple of times at a friend whom he has know since he was a puppy (granted he shouldn't bark, but we are working on it). A guy whose office is a couple of hundred feet down a long hall came out of his office and started screaming at me about how annoying the barking was, how I was a faker just looking to have a pet with me and how I had yelled at his son about skate boarding in the hall (which I don't think I did even though skateboarding on campus is illegal), so I had no right to tell him that why I had the dog with me was none of his business. On that front I went to get into the elevator today and he was in it already. He told me it was going down (our offices are up). I got in anyway saying it was no big deal to go down then back up, which I am happy to say seems to have given this man the chance to tell me he was sorry for his outburst last week, with the explanation that he was having a terrible day that day. I told him that I had been very upset by how vicious his words had felt to me, but that I was happy to now call it water under the bridge. We were together in the elevator long enough for me to also explain something about why I need the dog and that my life would be simpler on so many fronts if I could walk out the door without him.
> 
> I also met someone at the elevator later in the day who asked me questions about therapy and service dogs, explaining she had a puppy and she had asked her vet about how to be able to get the puppy to be a service dog to which the vet had replied "send these people $79 and they will send you a certificate!" Really from a vet?!? The woman is a student and I introduced myself, told her where my office was and to pay me a visit sometime so I could explain the realities to her. Hopefully she will show up sometime.


Service dogs are allowed to make mistakes


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