# Ready to take the raw/rmb plunge...hold my hand?



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm not sure what suppliers you have available locally, so will make my suggestions based on what is readily available in supermarkets. Chicken wings, ground meat (full fat versions), pork ribs, lamb ribs, eggs, canned sardines, liver, kidney, heart and any other offal you can source ... If you can get it, raw green tripe is brilliant! Many people recommend starting with one protein souce, so chicken wings, ground chicken, chicken livers, and any other chicken giblets you can find would make a good start for the first week or two. Once you know she has no reactions to that, introduce the next meats. As mine had never shown any allergies or intolerances I went for a mixture from the start.

Do keep an eye on the calcium content - If you are feeding a lot of meals that don't contain bone you will need to add calcium - ground eggshell is easy. And go easy on the liver, kidney and heart untii you know she can manage them - they can be very relaxing! I prefer to give liver cooked as treats.

Very useful advice on quantities and proportions here: DogAware.com: Homemade Diets for Dogs


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## Panda (Jan 7, 2010)

we took the plunge recently too and I have to say he is loving it. OK he is still the most fussy dog ever and can even turn his nose up "dog" chicken mince but will scoff "human" grade chicken. We are still a little scared of bones so the only bones he gets at the moment are poultry necks as he can crunch these up easily and they dont scare me


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## lilypoo (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks for the tips! My local grocery that has a butcher (Fry's) did not have any chicken necks or backs! 

I guess I'm starting with chicken!  I bought a whole small fryer. Is there any part I *shouldn't* feed her? I was thinking I'd hack it up. So I can give her the wings...what about the drumsticks, ribs, etc.?

I have a 50# mixed breed too...can she eat the bigger stuff? 

I will look for chicken offal as well. I'm currently trying to find a local source of pastured poultry and hoping I can buy the necks, etc. there!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

If you work out what a meal for her should weigh (my guess would be around 5 ounces a day), and chop up and weigh the pieces, I suspect she could eat the whole chicken over a few days. I'm sure your bigger dog will love "helping out" with any pieces that are a bit too big! The most difficult step is giving them that first raw chicken bone - we have been so thoroughly taught the dangers of cooked chicken bones that it is a big leap of faith to hand a dog any chicken bone. I hunted the internet high and low for weeks for any report of injuries caused by raw bones before I started - and the only ones I could find were from hard, weight bearing bones from large mammals.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I looked yesterday for some Chicken backs or necks for Carley. I did not find anything. I also ask the butcher about beef ribs, no luck there either. I went to the pet store, they only had dried, no meat bones. I did not think about a whole bird. How about deer? My husband is a hunter, he gives the meat away, but I might be able to get my hands on some deer ribs... 

Good luck with Lily, she is so cute. How do you get the pictures to come up with your post?


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

I'm not sure where you guys live, but are there any working farms nearby? For example, I'm in northern Virginia and these are a couple of my options:

Meats (including necks, chicken backs, organ meats, etc.):
https://www.fieldsofathenryfarm.com/content/order-form

Vegetables:
Main Page | Arganica Farm Club

The first is around an hour away but easy enough for good quality meats. The second place actually delivers. I didn't know about these opportunities until a friend clued me in (she lives close to the Fields of Athenry). 

I hope that helps!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would imagine venison would be excellent - ribs, spine, neck, shoulder - I would avoid the leg bones, perhaps. Deer offal would also be good - you would have everything, including the tripe (paunch?). In the UK there are several companies supplying human grade meat especially for dogs - it is frozen, but that makes it easier to manage.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Mama2FourAZ said:


> From my research I am liking the prey model but also can see the value in having some prepared raw as a back-up.
> Thanks!!


This is exactly what I do! I have been feeding (my variation of*) Prey Model Raw for nearly a year (it will be a year on Thanksgiving). 

I always keep pre-made raw on hand. I like Vital Essentials brand as it is prey model based. No veggies are added. Just meat, bone and organ. It is AAFCO approved for all life stages, so I know they are getting what they need. 

Lately, because student teaching and grad. school has taken of my life, I feed a mix of Vital Essentials pre-made and different varieties of ground whole prey from My Pet Carnivore. Prior to this, I never fed anything ground because I felt that I was losing the dental benefits. I have compromised on that, for now, because it is easier.

On the weekends, I feed a raw meat bone each AM with organ meat and I feed a whole chunk of boneless meat for dinner. 

_(My Pet Carnivore is a wonderful small company that delivers raw meat to various cities in the midwest once monthly. All of their meat comes from small farms that they work with. They offer whole prey, ground whole prey, bulk boxes of turkey necks or whole lamb hearts, whole beef hearts and a HUGE array of organ meat. They also have tripe from various animals. They even have "supermixes" where they take the whole prey and add more heart and organs so that it is "balanced". It is a known fact that grinding meat reduces the taurine, so it is necessary to add heart to counter that. Alpaca and ostrich are the latest specialties that my poodles will be enjoying from MPC.) _

*I say that it is my variation of prey model because I do do some things that are not typical of a prey model raw diet. Ie - some supplementation of the diet. I do experiment with veggie glop. I supplement with probiotics, digestive enzymes and fish oil. I throw some Vit. E and Kelp in their food every now and then. I am not opposed to a little bit of yogurt.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

The one thing I would be cautious with with any meat you have obtained from a hunter is parasites. I have heard that freezing it for a week will take care of this. Deer ribs would be great RMB. Chicken necks are a really handy size for a toy. Have you asked at the butcher? Sometimes they don't put these out but you can purchase them for a song. Another option is if there is an ethnic store in your area. Oriental, Italian - almost any type of ethnic store will do. They will often have more exotic things like chicken feet, necks ect. I have used fryers too. I will separate out drumsticks, back, wings, ribs. Swizzle did not need any help he ate it all with gusto but you will have to see how your dog is. I keep hearts and gizzards frozen and on hand. If Swizzle's poop is getting a little too hard I just give him some of that and it moves things along. You might want to hold off on the heart as fjm states. Swizzle has had no issue but as with everything you need to see what works for your dog. I am excited for you. It is scary trying something so new and different but Lily will thank you for it with better health, clean teeth, and a shiny coat.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I wrote that whole post and didn't even answer your questions!

When I started raw, I fed bone-in chicken strictly for one week. I feed twice a day so I did AM chicken back and PM chicken back for about 3 days. I removed visible skin and fat. This kept stool in check. After a few days, their stool was too firm, so I went to chicken quarters. I then did AM chicken quarter and PM chicken quarter for the rest of that first week of raw.

Then, for week two, I decided to try a new protein. I also added some boneless chicken meat because they needed more meat as their stool was still pretty hard. I did AM chicken quarter/leg with some boneless meat added and PM turkey neck. 

I added 1 new protein each week, as long as stool remained firm. I added boneless meat and reduced bone-in meals slowly until I was able to feed closer to 80/10. (80% meat, 10% bone). 

I added in this order:

Week 1: Chicken
Week 2: Turkey
Week 3: Fish
Week 4: Pork
Week 5: Beef (heart)
Week 6: Organ meats
Week 7: Lamb
Week 8: Venison

Now, remember, it will take several months before a dogs body will be fully adapted to feeding raw. There are a lot of changes that will occur in your dog's body. 

Also, it was about in week two that my dogs were able to NOT have to eat bone-in at every meal. When first transitioning to raw, many feed HEAVY on the bone to avoid diarrhea. But, this cannot continue for too long. As soon as your dogs can handle it, you will reduce the bone to every other meal, or even every other, other meal. 

My dogs now eat bone-in every fourth meal. So, it would go like this:

Am: Bone-in
Pm: boneless

Am: boneless
pm: boneless

Repeat.

Now, this assumes that the bone-in meal is relatively large. On the other hand, you could feed smaller bone in meals more frequently. But, I prefer the larger bone-in meal because it is safer (no choking) and a better workout.

I HIGHLY suggest Lew Olson's _Natural Nutrition for Dogs, and _ Tom Lonsdale _Works Wonders_.

Also: THIS quick start guide is what I followed when I started raw. I adjusted it to my own needs (I added boneless way sooner) but it is a wonderful guide. 

Quick Start | Prey Model Raw


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Very much what I feed, CM. Mine usually get one meal RMB, one meal raw meat/tripe, one meal cooked fish/mixed meat and offal/eggs. I tend to keep some chicken and rice in reserve in the freezer, although we rarely need it.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I would love to feed tripe. Any ideas where I can get it in CT? Can I find it online? 

FJM do you keep chicken and rice on in case of diarrhea? Fortunately this has not been an issue yet but if it ever is I want to know what to do.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I can't get canned pumpkin in the UK, so usually give them rice instead. I cook short grain rice in weak, unsalted chicken stock until it is very soft, add a little chicken meat, cool it quickly and freeze portions. It is a useful standby!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Oh - so the chicken and rice are a backup meal - not for digestive upset?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

CT Girl - with a homemade raw diet, the remedy for loose stool is typically to increase bone. As I was learning about a raw diet, I learned to "re-think" the term diarrhea. Many raw feeders refer to "diarrhea" as a sign of illness. They differentiate between "loose stool" (caused by diet) and "diarrhea" (caused by illness). Loose stool can nearly always be remedied by increasing bone. Diarrhea needs a visit to the vet.

With a homemade raw diet, loose stool is nearly always caused by too little bone (too much muscle meat, esp. rich muscle meat like heart or too much rich organ meat). This is why bone will clear that up.

Example: this morning Millie had wayyyyyy loose stool. The first thing I thought to myself was, "OOPS! Too much liver yesterday!". I had a feeling when I fed it to her yesterday that it might be too much, but thought I'd give it a try...

So, for breakfast today I countered that by giving her a nice slab of lamb ribs. A bone heavy meal will clear up her loose poops right away.

ETA: If there are symptoms other than simple loose stool (ie more signs of digestive upset), I will skip a meal and maybe give them some SEB (Slippery Elm Bark). Henry will react to *too much bone* by getting a very upset tummy (but no loose stool as the bone firms that up). I can tell, though, that his tummy is upset and so I give him something bland like boneless raw chicken breast and some SEB. Raw boneless chicken is much easier for a dog to digest than rice, so I personally never go the rice route. My dogs are more likely to get an upset tummy from rice being added to their diet.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I had a similar experience when mine had lamb bones, with quite a lot of marrow in them, and liver, and something else rather loosening, all on the same day ... we had a very disturbed night! I tend to use chicken and rice when I think their tummies need a rest, or when the vet advises it - one day water only (Ha!), a couple of days chicken and rice, gradually increasing meat to rice.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Thanks Cho. Millie. Swizzle is nice and regular I just sometimes tweak with a little more muscle meat or bone but no problems if you overlook the time a couple days ago when my husband left a treat bag open. Swizzle threw up a couple of times and had diarrhea. I was on the phone to the vet when I noticed what the problem was. We were out of power for several days so everything was disorganized. Fortuantely he only had a miserable hour or two before he was back to normal. Hopefully that will be the only time something like that happens but if he does get a too rich meal and needs his stomach to calm down or if he gets sick this sounds like a good meal choice.


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## lilypoo (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks so much for all the WONDERFUL info!!

I'm so incredibly excited about this! 

I bought some Nature's Recipe frozen raw as my back-up prepared food...I got a bag of chicken and a bag of bison. I can't believe how affordable this is--it was $13 for a 6 pound bag! Some of the local resources I've found that co-op raw for dogs have stuff for as little as 60 cents a pound! I'm relieved since I thought it might be prohibitively expensive to feed quality raw.

I'm starting Lily on the chicken and my big doggie has an iron stomach so she had some of each.  I also bought a 3 pack of HUGE turkey necks and gave one to my big girl. She was in HEAVEN. Seriously, she looked like she was going to pass out from the joy. She ate the entire thing, chewing the bones carefully, in about 15 minutes. She was just elated. I was almost in (happy) tears watching her! LOL She also loves the frozen raw pucks. Lily was a little unsure of the pucks so I'm looking forward to trying her on some chicken parts...I just haven't had the energy to hack up that whole chicken yet!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

That is wonderful news. Perhaps you could purchase some chicken necks for Lily - Swizzle loves them. Swizzle quivers with happiness when he is fed a RMB or a raw meal. It does make you feel good to do something so good for them that makes them so happy.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Yes, having dogs doing the happy dance at mealtimes is so rewarding! Mine actually had cooked this morning - I'm trying to make space in the freezer for a huge order later in the month, and had some cooked chicken to use up. And I've been experimenting with home-made rawhide chews, which came out rather more like crackling than rawhide! And there was some green vegetable gloop in the fridge ... Sophy practically licked the glaze off the bowl! But the big order will include lamb ribs, and those are even better than cooked chicken.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

You really can't mess this up so release those worry lines. Dogs are natural scavengers & historically did not eat a balanced daily diet. Ever see a dog counting points? LOL 

Their digestive systems and their bodies are not that fragile. Feed meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals and the diet will balance itself over time. Remember that term "over time". It's not necessary to balance each meal. Balance over time. People getting into raw feeding tend to worry a lot about ratios and percentages and weights. Forget all that. Feed raw meat and bones and organs from a variety of animals and things magically work themselves out. What is ideal? The average prey animal has about 10% to 15% bone, about 10% organs, and the rest muscle and fat and connective tissue. If you feed 5% bone or 25% bone, it won't matter. 5% organs or 20% organs doesn't make any difference. Just stay somewhat in the ballpark and you will be ok. 

My Rango gets bored & is fussy so he gets a cooked meal one day with some quinoa tossed in, raw another day, some Ziwi peak dehydrated raw another, sometimes Lotus baked not extruded kibble. I like to keep him open to everything & truthfully, a purely raw diet is expensive for a fussy 66# dog (not done growing)

Sometimes I'll add a wee bit of a more expensive tantalizer (safe salmon, venison, rabbit etc) in with his ordinary beef or chicken. I swear he knows its more expensive so it passes muster 

Start with 1 protein for 3 weeks. Go easy on organs & anything fatty as already mentioned- VERY RELAXING (trots.) 

Be a poop monitor- yep, it's true.... You will become an expert poop watcher. You wld be astounded at how compact my 66# boy's is when he eats raw (cat sized.) Ideally, the poop should be solid and turn white and powdery in a day or 2. Loose stool generally means you need to feed more bone. If it is white and powdery when it comes out, feed less bone. Watch the poop, the build, the pinkness of his gums 

Carrots, squash, pumpkin, sweet potatos clears this up.

I starting feeding chicken backs, turkey necks etc at 4 months- loves 'em. Anyone who thinks poodles are not 'real dogs' has never seen one tear into a chicken back :aetsch: Now, in the winter, I put him on a big towel & he eats it inside. (Fall is a problem outdoors with wasps but you have some time to deal with that *grin*)

If you want to add veggies (some dogs love 'em, mine does NOT) then make sure to puree/ juicer/ etc. them first as dogs do not produce the enzyme (amylase?) to break down cellulose.

DO NOT mix cooked with raw- they digest at different rates & the cooked sits fermenting. 

Tips:
Dogs don't like rubbery textures (Natures's Variety w/ veggies is best described as sticky- yuck!) so if this is the case, feed partially frozen & this wont be the case.

Add a probiotic- human will do, just make sure it's a low dosage type.
Add a pre-biotic (feeds the gut flora created by pro-b's) 'Apawthecary' is nice

Hope this helps


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Dang! 3 weeks with one protein? I never did that when I introduced my dogs to PMR! We did one protein per week. Even faster at points.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Dang! 3 weeks with one protein? I never did that when I introduced my dogs to PMR! We did one protein per week. Even faster at points.


*lol* I wld definitely start with 2 weeks & then decide from there. If you've had 2 good poo weeks then you're all set


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

If you are in Arizona you should have some good ethnic markets. If you have a Mexican market near you, you may find a lot of meats not found in your run of the mill grocery store.


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

Check out this page for an amazing guide on prey model raw

Beginner's Guide To Prey Model Raw - Raw Food Diet Forum

I started mine with chicken for about 2 weeks, then introduced white fish, a week later pork, a week after that lamb, and a week after that beef. It took a while for him to manage beef without getting runny poo but he got there eventually. I also give him lamb kidney and liver which was introduced fairly early on (I use dehydrated lamb's liver for treats)


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Kloliver said:


> *lol* I wld definitely start with 2 weeks & then decide from there. If you've had 2 good poo weeks then you're all set


Personally I think that is overkill...but it never hurts to be safe I suppose! I think it's far more important to get red meat in there than to spend forever on one protein. If your dog has good stool, there is no reason to spend two whole weeks before moving on to another protein!

This is the model I followed...Quick Start | Prey Model Raw


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I think it's far more important to get red meat in there than to spend forever on one protein. If your dog has good stool, there is no reason to spend two whole weeks before moving on to another protein!


Right, like I said..... don't worry about the details- everyone does it a little differently so there's really no right & wrong way to feed raw. Your dog is steering this ship- he'll tell you what's working & what isn't.


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