# What to do about Blue?



## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

If he is being a jerk right now, maybe try another activity with him and avoid the obedience class.

pr


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Poodlerunner said:


> If he is being a jerk right now, maybe try another activity with him and avoid the obedience class.
> 
> pr


I think you're right. That's why I pulled him out. (I've substituted Jazz in the obedience class--it's advanced beginners, which she doesn't need, but it's good for her to be around other dogs, and it gets us both out of the house.) I'd still like to know how to handle this, though. We seldom see dogs in our neighborhood, but it does happen occasionally, and they're all bigger than Blue, so I don't want him to provoke a fight. What do you do if you've got a show dog, for instance, that can't be neutered but has to be around other dogs?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't think neutering has that much, if anything to do with it. More recent studies indicate that neutering does not make a dog less aggressive and in fact, may make him more so because the lack of hormones can make them less secure, which can make a dog snarky. It may help with some dogs and some not._ Something like 30 years _ago, (we didn't have a fence) one of my GSDs was getting snarky...went after another GSD, broke his jaw as his tooth got stuck in the other dog as the other dog ran trying to escape...and while he was getting his jaw fixed, I told the vet to neuter him. His aggression did stop, never did something like that again. So, I am a little on the fence with that. Maurice is getting snarkier and snarkier but it usually has to do with food or toys, so he's resource guarding from the other dogs, which I need to get a handle on and try to keep at bay. He's friendly to dogs though, that he meets on walks and eager to meet them, has had loads of socialization.

Here's what I think: Your dog needs more socialization but done in a controlled way with distance as your friend. Go someplace where there are dogs, like one or two and keep well back...far enough that he sees the dogs, but doesn't react strongly. Start feeding him high value treats, showing him that the presence of other dogs means good things. Punishment of any kind is contraindicated here, as it will tend to escalate his reactivity. 

Get the book, Click to Calm by Emma Parsons. It's great and will show you a systematic protocol to help your dog. Dog shows are full of intact male dogs....loads and loads of them. I rarely see any of them getting too worked up over other dogs. They're use to other dogs. They see them all the time. So, neutering may or may not help. More exposure with positive associations and a tried and true method of working through this should help...maybe not make him perfect, but improved. I worked with this situation a lot, not only with clients, but my own Doberman was very dog reactive. He got a lot better in time. It doesn't change over night mind you. But I'd get started asap. See if you can't get some improvement, then re-evaluate about neutering. That's what I'd do at any rate.

Oh, and my Doberman was a perfect gentleman in class. (obedience and agility) He was never that reactive way unless we were on a casual leash walk in my neighborhood. If we were on a hike, off leash he was fine too, if that rare occasion occurred where we met someone on the trail. He chased a dog in the pasture and it looked scary. But then he stopped 20 feet from the dog and didn't seem to know what to do with him. LOL. He was though, really embarrassing on a leash walk.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Thanks, PBG. I'll look for the book by Parsons. I do have a clicker, but I haven't used it much. One of the reasons I've put both dogs into class situations is to offer some socialization. There just isn't much opportunity for them to interact with other dogs where we live. Perhaps I should take Blue back to class but sit on the bleachers with him and treat him when he starts to get hyper. I've done some of that before class starts--maybe that should be my focus during the entire class. 

As for the neutering, we've had male dogs before that weren't neutered, and they never even lifted a lip to another dog. We had one that was neutered at about 10 months, and he became less self-assured, a bit timid, but again, never showed any aggression, before or after. 

If I were a bit younger, or if Blue was a small dog instead of 53 pounds and growing, this wouldn't be such an issue, but I'm not, and he is...


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Pure speculation on my part, but since he was zeutered only a few weeks ago, perhaps he is in the midst of a hormomal transition that is causing him to act out?


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

LEUllman said:


> Pure speculation on my part, but since he was zeutered only a few weeks ago, perhaps he is in the midst of a hormomal transition that is causing him to act out?


I don't think that's it, as this started well before the zeutering, back when he was seven or eight months old. He's such a nice dog, but he is a studly little devil. I hope he'll calm down when his levels drop to the predicted 50% of the original.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I think you have a great idea...to sit back on the bleachers in class if the room is big enough to get some good distance. Treat him frequently as he sits looking but BEFORE he gets aroused. Keep on treating him, one after the other (tiny) as he sits there. If you can't get far enough away and he tends to react too quickly before you get a chance to mark and treat or to show him that those dogs = good things, then maybe that place would be too much for him. But don't scold him if he gets snarky. Sometimes a lot of dogs might be too much for a reactive dog. So, try it out and see. Remember, you're not rewarding calm behavior. You're trying to make an association between those dogs and a pleasant enough time, including scrumptious treats and praise so he can change his mind set about those other dogs and his behavior that you want will follow. Sort of treating from the inside out instead of putting a band aid on an internal injury. That's what punishment does. It might squelch the behavior temporarily, but won't change how the dog feels about the other dogs and in fact can make the dog more touchy and reactive. And sometime in the future, he may explode. 

I hope you can get some improvement. That book is definitely very helpful. Good luck.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Stella was like that when I first got her and I think it was that she was unsure about the other dogs. I think the more you can have him around dogs the better. Maybe not a class, where he is bothering other people, but somewhere like a dog day care ect. I made sure to walk my dog where she would come in contact with lots of dogs and kept her well controlled. She has gotten over it now. Her first owner tried to always keep her away from other dogs on walks, whenever they came near another dog, she would turn and go the other way ect. I think that reinforced that dogs were something to fear, making her worse instead of better...


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

You know, he doesn't act at all anxious or uneasy around other dogs. It isn't every dog, or even most dogs, but it's always been unprovoked. He doesn't growl or bite at them, isn't showing the stiff-legged, snarling prelude to full-fledged fight mode (and I very much don't want it to escalate to that). He's lunging at them and barking, as if he wants them to know...something. I don't read dog body language very well. Maybe he wants to make them aware 9delusional or not) he's the big dog--"I'm here and I'm the most important dog in the room!" So far, he hasn't encountered a dog that wants to fight back, which is good, because he doesn't discriminate between little Welsh terriers and German Shepherds.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

JudyD said:


> You know, he doesn't act at all anxious or uneasy around other dogs. It isn't every dog, or even most dogs, but it's always been unprovoked. He doesn't growl or bite at them, isn't showing the stiff-legged, snarling prelude to full-fledged fight mode (and I very much don't want it to escalate to that). He's lunging at them and barking, as if he wants them to know...something. I don't read dog body language very well. Maybe he wants to make them aware 9delusional or not) he's the big dog--"I'm here and I'm the most important dog in the room!" So far, he hasn't encountered a dog that wants to fight back, which is good, because he doesn't discriminate between little Welsh terriers and German Shepherds.


He may not be aggressive at all. But instead, ramped up on account of being on a leash. He may simply be wanting to check them out and visit. Often they do get this way because they can't interact naturally...their own body language can't express itself the way dogs need to, to get to know each other...not very well because of that darned leash. Also, you need to try (if you're not already) keeping the leash loose and yourself relaxed, like nothing is a big deal at all....like he's being just plain silly. "Oh for heaven's sake. It's just a dog." LOL. Take a dog off a leash to meet and greet and you'll see a whole nuther thing_ often._ 

If you could post a video, maybe we could tell what it looks like his intentions are. It almost sounds to me as if he's not really aggressive, but wanting to go see the dog. How does he act with dogs once he's up close and personal? Does he ever get to play with other dogs that he doesn't know? Is it only in class situations that he gets this way? How about when you're on a walk and he sees one dog? 

Usually, that "protective" thing...that I'm gonna keep those dogs away doesn't get serious until they're about 18 months old, give or take. With the exception of a dog like a Doberman. Mine started getting territorial around 4 months of age. So, I'm not sure what those hormones are doing in your dog. lol. A video would be most helpful. What does your trainer think?


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

The trainers (there are two, one who teaches Jazz's agility class) both think I need to get this under control before it becomes a real problem. Their suggestion is to use redirecting and treating, but to "pop" the lead/training collar and tell him "no" if that doesn't work. As you know, I'm not in the exclusive positive reinforcement camp, and I do think there's a place for other types of training, but it seems unwise to use forceful methods in this case. That's like using aggression to teach him not to be aggressive. At the very least, it amps up the already high energy level. (One of the instructions I was given when I worked with the trainer who uses e-collars was never to activate the collar if your dog is ignoring you because of another dog or a person. He said the dog very well might misinterpret the discomfort as coming from the other dog or person and retaliate.) 

The trainers have also pointed out that I'm sometimes too tense and need to relax the leash and let the dogs sniff each other, but it makes me uneasy. Maybe it's all those years as a bicycle rider, being chased by dog after dog on almost every ride. I was never bitten, but one of them did put me on the pavement and break some bones, so I'm not always happy around strange dogs.

I'll see if I can get a video of his behavior. That would certainly make it clearer. I'll ask my husband to go to the training class next Sunday to help.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

how does he act when the trainers hold the leash and he is around other dogs? just trying to pinpoint whether he is picking up vibes from you as suggested by one of the trainers. i find the advice not to be nervous because it will affect the dog somewhat silly (just my opinion) because it just makes one more tense. if it is you and not just blue, then something to divert both of you might help.

i think it was carolinek in another thread who talked about training her very reactive dog to "watch me." the dog learned that upon that command she was to sit and got treats - now when she sees a dog she might normally react to, she runs to the owner and sits in front of her for treats! that is a diversion for both the owner and the dog that takes both into very positive territory.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I find it interesting that none of the dogs Blue has "mouthed off" at have taken offense. This leads me to believe that they are interpretting his behavior as nonthreatening. I think it might help if you could have a consult with an animal behaviorist. Surely someone coud recommend a good one in your area.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Charmed said:


> I find it interesting that none of the dogs Blue has "mouthed off" at have taken offense. This leads me to believe that they are interpretting his behavior as nonthreatening. I think it might help if you could have a consult with an animal behaviorist. Surely someone coud recommend a good one in your area.


i'm sort of leaning toward general resource guarding behavior - with judyd as the resource. my lowchen only did the barking at other dogs routine when he wanted other dogs to stay away. and most of these were dogs we encountered everyday, who mostly ignored his barking. he only exhibited this behavior after i brought a female dog into the house; it lasted until she had to be put to sleep. then no more barking at other dogs we encountered unless it was a jack russell, and that was totally different.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

patk said:


> how does he act when the trainers hold the leash and he is around other dogs? just trying to pinpoint whether he is picking up vibes from you as suggested by one of the trainers. i find the advice not to be nervous because it will affect the dog somewhat silly (just my opinion) because it just makes one more tense. if it is you and not just blue, then something to divert both of you might help.
> 
> i think it was carolinek in another thread who talked about training her very reactive dog to "watch me." the dog learned that upon that command she was to sit and got treats - now when she sees a dog she might normally react to, she runs to the owner and sits in front of her for treats! that is a diversion for both the owner and the dog that takes both into very positive territory.


I don't recall the trainer for his class (Trish) holding the leash. Blue is very fond of Trish and is exuberantly happy to see her, but I don't recall her holding his leash around another dog. As far as my holding the leash taut, I plead guilty to being a control freak (OCD can be a good thing ), but I'm not anxious or nervous, just don't want to get a dog fight started, so I tend to keep some distance between Blue and other dogs.

I have been working the "watch me" command. I'm thinking that's what I'll do when I take him back to class this weekend, just sit on the bleachers (it's a very big, gymnasium-type space), and use "watch me" if he starts acting up.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Charmed said:


> I find it interesting that none of the dogs Blue has "mouthed off" at have taken offense. This leads me to believe that they are interpretting his behavior as nonthreatening. I think it might help if you could have a consult with an animal behaviorist. Surely someone coud recommend a good one in your area.


That's an interesting observation. There is one female miniature schnauzer that growled at him once. The owner said, "Oh, she just wants to play," and the trainer remarked, "I don't think she wants to play....," which was my interpretation, too, so I moved Blue well out of reach, and that was the end of it.

As for an animal behaviorist, well, this is West Virginia. I don't know of any around here, and I'd be surprised if there are many, if any, in the state.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

patk said:


> i'm sort of leaning toward general resource guarding behavior - with judyd as the resource. my lowchen only did the barking at other dogs routine when he wanted other dogs to stay away. and most of these were dogs we encountered everyday, who mostly ignored his barking. he only exhibited this behavior after i brought a female dog into the house; it lasted until she had to be put to sleep. then no more barking at other dogs we encountered unless it was a jack russell, and that was totally different.


I considered that, but none of the dogs have approached me or been close to me, so I don't think that's the trigger. He has never shown an indication to guard anything at home, either. Both my husband and I can take food away, take things out of his mouth without problems, and he and Jazz get along very well. In fact, he often takes a toy to her and puts it in front of her or rubs it against her if he wants her to play with him. I've never seen them squabble about food or toys, and they take turns nicely sitting on our laps (although I am the preferred lap for both of them). He hurries over to be included if one of us is petting Jazz, but there's nothing aggressive about it.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

JudyD said:


> I considered that, but none of the dogs have approached me or been close to me, so I don't think that's the trigger. He has never shown an indication to guard anything at home, either. Both my husband and I can take food away, take things out of his mouth without problems, and he and Jazz get along very well. In fact, he often takes a toy to her and puts it in front of her or rubs it against her if he wants her to play with him. I've never seen them squabble about food or toys, and they take turns nicely sitting on our laps (although I am the preferred lap for both of them). He hurries over to be included if one of us is petting Jazz, but there's nothing aggressive about it.


other dogs never really approached my female, either, unless i was holding the male back. one reason they didn't approach, i believe, is because he was barking: he even stood on his hind legs to "speak" to a mastiff that was off leash (at night) with its owner. my female could not have cared less. she never joined in the barking, which, imo, is unusual and part of what finally has led me to conclude (after years of puzzling about this behavior) that resource guarding was involved.


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## yankeepudelchic (Oct 28, 2012)

you have a teenage boy! typical! don't fret, and be his happy leader. takes 6 months for levels to fall off.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Here's what I could find in West Virginia. You are correct. Animal behaviorists are rarer than hen's teeth in your state. The last person listed works in conjunjuction with Dr. Maxwell; she may not have her degree in animal behavior. Also, I do not know anything about these people, their names just popped up as the only animal behaviorists in West Virginia. Consults can be pretty pricey, espeicialy when there is no competition. Good luck.
Kennon A. Lattal, PhD 
Department of Psychology 
West Virginia University 
Morgantown, WV 26505-6040 
(304)292-3567

And another:

Blacksburg and Roanoke, VA, area residents can contact Dr. Maxwell 
phone: (540) 818-8711 
email: [email protected]

Morgantown, WV, area residents can contact Amy Estep
phone: (304) 550-2513 
email: [email protected]


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

yankeepudelchic said:


> you have a teenage boy! typical! don't fret, and be his happy leader. takes 6 months for levels to fall off.


That's the best I can hope for! I survived raising a human one of those, and he survived my raising. (Thankfully his levels didn't drop, as he's produced half of my six grandchildren.) Let's hope Blue and I can survive the next six months, and then move on.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Charmed, thanks for that info. I'll contact one of these people if I can't get a handle on this myself. Blacksburg and Morgantown are both about three hours from us, so that's certainly doable. 

Thanks to all of you who've taken time to post. Some new ideas, some helpful suggestions, more for me to think about. We'll see.

Incidentally, my trainer had this link to an article about puppy socialization on her FB page. Although I thought we were exposing Blue to lots of new experiences, perhaps he needed more intensive exposure, a la this article. 

Rethinking Puppy Socialization


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

judyd, interesting article. totally agree that socialization is not accomplished just by taking one's dog to classes. i took my dog everywhere i could take him; he was a more timid, introverted guy, but he learned the world was not that fearful a place. 

all that aside,i have a question for you, since you have two dogs. did jazz ever manifest any of the behavior you are now seeing in blue? this is really a variant of the old nature/nurture question. i used to have two dogs, but neither came to me as a puppy. your two, however, came to you as puppies and are being raised in essentially the same environments, except several years apart in age. so i'm curious if you think you are doing anything differently with blue.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I had another thought about Blue. More of something for you to think about... are most of his walks with Jazz? Is his behavior different when he walks with Jazz than when he walks without him? Could he be a tiny bit less confident without Jazz and possibly be reactive to other dogs because he is fearful? You'll have to think about how often Blue goes out alone and if it is possible that he may have been drawing some confidence from Jazz. It's so hard to try and figure out what is going on over the internet. Keep us informed. I also, want to know about any hormonal effects you notice since Wilson was zeutered, too.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

patk said:


> all that aside,i have a question for you, since you have two dogs. did jazz ever manifest any of the behavior you are now seeing in blue? this is really a variant of the old nature/nurture question. i used to have two dogs, but neither came to me as a puppy. your two, however, came to you as puppies and are being raised in essentially the same environments, except several years apart in age. so i'm curious if you think you are doing anything differently with blue.


patk, they're very different dogs, from very different backgrounds. We got Jazz from a breeder we found online. She's essentially a BYB, who has a couple of males and three or four females. She also breeds goldendoodles, but I wasn't aware of that at the time. I'm sure she takes good care of her dogs and is fond of them, but they're basically money makers. (I think she's now breeding a father-daughter pair, two reds--our trainer has a friend who got a red pup from the same person, don't know it was from this pairing, the pup had health problems, the breeder was not helpful at all.) 

Jazz was almost five months old, the last of a litter of five or six. I doubt she'd had much socialization beyond interacting with the breeder, her husband and grandson, and a couple of visits to the vet. When we brought her home, she was afraid of stairs, hadn't been outside much, didn't know how to climb over a log lying on the ground, wouldn't put a toe in the creek, but she learned quickly. We worked with a private trainer for a few months, then when she was about 19 months old, I put her in a group class, so she'd be around other dogs. She was very stressed at first by the noise and confusion, head down, tail tucked, staying close to me, but by the end of the 8-week series, she was much more comfortable and passed her CGC test with flying colors. I'd characterize her as eager to please, quick to learn, cautious in new situations, a bit anxious at times, but never shy or nervous. Our vet loves her, every groomer I've taken her to said she was perfectly well-behaved. She's my dog, no doubt about that, but she's happy to be in the room with me, doesn't have to be close.

Blue is a much better bred dog, from Gloria Oghdal's Tintlet kennels in North Carolina. He's from a litter of eight. Both parents are UKC champions, one of his littermates is already a champion. We got him at a little over nine weeks of age. He's been self-confident from the beginning, doesn't seem to be afraid of anything (not even the evil sweeper, which sends Jazz trotting off to another room), hasn't shown any anxiety or nervousness at all, about anything. I'd characterize him as quick to learn but easily distracted, more independent than Jazz, very sweet-tempered and affectionate. After the first grooming, when he was "pretty good, for a puppy," he's been just as well-behaved as Jazz. He's my dog, too, and wants to be at my feet most of the time. 

The two dogs play very well together, lots of rough and tumble, growl and box, chase and catch. (Incidentally, it's interesting to watch them mock-fight. Blue goes up over the side and takes Jazz by the neck. She goes for the hamstring, gets him by the hind leg, and he immediately tucks his testicles under and sits on them. Really funny.) I thought maybe he was going to be the dominant one of the two, but I think Jazz was just cutting him a lot of puppy slack. He still aggravates the bejeezus out of her at times, but she's the one who sets the final parameters. One of our neighbors has a granddog that stays with them on occasion. If we meet him and Louie in the meadow, the three dogs play well together, although Louie is nowhere near as quick and active as they are. I don't think they've ever had a disagreement with Louie.

I don't think I'm doing anything different. They're just different dogs.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Charmed said:


> I had another thought about Blue. More of something for you to think about... are most of his walks with Jazz? Is his behavior different when he walks with Jazz than when he walks without him? Could he be a tiny bit less confident without Jazz and possibly be reactive to other dogs because he is fearful? You'll have to think about how often Blue goes out alone and if it is possible that he may have been drawing some confidence from Jazz. It's so hard to try and figure out what is going on over the internet. Keep us informed. I also, want to know about any hormonal effects you notice since Wilson was zeutered, too.


Charmed, Blue has been self-confident from the day we brought him home. I don't think he's afraid of the devil, with or without Jazz at his side. :biggrin1:

I will post if I see any changes that seem to be related to the zeutering. He seems to have tolerated the procedure well, hasn't had any side-effects or problems. His testicles were very swollen for about ten days, but they're pretty much back to normal now.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

thanks, judyd. i find it very interesting that blue has always been self-confident. from what you said about his behavior in class, i did not think fear aggression was involved. do let us know how sunday works out.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Will do, patk. 

You know, I feel compelled to add to the discussion that the problem is not Blue. I absolutely adore this dog. The problem is mine. I just need to learn how to handle it.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Thanks for the info. Glad to hear that Blue acts the same with or without Jazz. Wilson is a lot more confident than my previous poodles, and requires a bit different handling. He pretty much plows through everything with his tail wagging.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Okay, we're back from our training class. I took about half a pound of boiled chicken gizzards, cut into tiny pieces with kitchen shears, a couple of string cheese sticks, and the clicker. 

Blue did his bark and lunge routine when we met a very small dog as we came through the outside doors. I didn't have my treats out, so I just had to hold him back. Once we got inside, I made the treats readily available and started the "watch me" command. At first, he was pretty distracted, but he didn't bark and lunge, and he got more and more focused as the class went on. By the end, he was watching me most of the time without commands. I didn't use the clicker (PB, the book "Click to Calm" is very good), because there were so many other dogs around that I was afraid I'd confuse them--the clicker sounded really loud to me--but he didn't seem to need it. I didn't stay on the bleachers. We did the work the trainer showed us, and Blue did pretty well (left turns, pivots, backing, heeling), although I was mostly focused on keeping his attention on me instead of other dogs. He did fix a laser stare on some of his classmates, but there was no other reaction. I just stepped between him and the other dog and offered treats, and that seemed to work well.

I'm greatly relieved. This was much better than the last time I took him. I'll continue to work the "watch me" command and hand out treats like candy. That, and having a martini when I get home, appears to be a real winner.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

no real experience here with the "watch me" command, but i can relate re the martinis! :biggrin: so glad this seems to be moving in the right direction. keep us in the loop. i think you can help someone else out with this info.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

"Watch me" rewards the dog for eye contact, starts with giving the verbal command, then moves on to rewarding the dog when he makes eye contact without the command. It's intended to keep the dog's focus on the trainer.

No videos. My husband is recovering from a lengthy case of bronchitis and conjunctivitis and didn't feel like going with me. As it turned out, there wouldn't have been anything to video, anyway, so no great loss.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

just curious, what did your trainer say? (or was that not the one who suggested the leash popping?) are you the new dog whisperer in her class?


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

She was quite busy, but she did come over to greet Blue and undo all my work on keeping him from jumping up. (He puts his paws on her shoulder, wiggles all over, and she says, "He only does it when he's invited." He's so happy to see her that I don't object.) We left as soon as class was over, so she didn't have a chance to talk with me. At least, she didn't have to throw us out. :biggrin1:

Jazz's agility instructor, who's teaching an open class that meets at the same time as Blue's advanced class, suggested last week that I bring Blue to her Control Off Lead series, which is held during the hour before agility. That starts next Wednesday. I may try that and see how he does.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I laughed when you talked about Blue's laser stare. Students used to ask me what the difference was between "looking" and "staring" in dogs. I always said that "staring" was like Superman using his x-ray vision. Good job on breaking off his stare. You earned your martini!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Glad to read your good progress update! :thumb: The "Look At That" training I began with Chagall as a pup turned out to be _the best thing ever_ to teach him focus in the face of distractions, which around here are the deer and other wildlife. 
Clicker Training 'Look at That' LAT Game -teaching dogs to focus and eye contact - YouTube

Cheering you and Blue along!:whoo:


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Charmed said:


> I laughed when you talked about Blue's laser stare. Students used to ask me what the difference was between "looking" and "staring" in dogs. I always said that "staring" was like Superman using his x-ray vision. Good job on breaking off his stare. You earned your martini!


That stare is a hyper-focus, isn't it? In Blue's case, fortunately, it isn't accompanied by a rigid posture, stiff tail, lips pulled back, all those other signs of impending combat. If it were, I'd be in real trouble here.

As I was hurrying him out to the car to avoid new dogs coming in for the next class, two--not one, but two--standard poodles came in. One was an apricot, the other a black. Standards, actually poodles of any size, are uncommon around here, and normally I'd have stopped to chat with the owners, who looked interested, but I didn't want to undo the progress we'd made, so I just waved and kept moving.

I was entirely wiped out by the time I got home, so much that the first martini almost turned into a second, but common sense prevailed. I'm a real lightweight when it comes to alcohol, so I stopped at one, and Rich still had to walk the dogs after they were fed, because I wasn't sure I could find the meadow. :dazed:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

With a situation like this, I would _not_ agree with the trainer who told you to leash pop him. That is contraindicated in a something like this...absolutely. Anything that startles, causes discomfort, makes a dog more nervous will be paired with those other dogs that he's being reactive toward. It is very likely to escalate the problem. When your dog is _feeling_ reactive, he is unaware of his own behavior. So punishment makes no sense and can cause a lot of damage.

It really doesn't matter what the cause is of his reactivity. The remedy is the same. You're doing great with the watch me and redirecting. What Chagallsmom posted..._Look at that _is an excellent method. Remember, if a clicker is too much to hold or confusing, just use a marker word. It sounds like you're on the road. It will take lots more gradual desensitization and counter-conditioning exercises though. Way to go.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

An interim report here. Tuesday evening, I took a look at the links Charmed sent for behaviorists. Charmed, I owe you for those links! By some miracle, the woman in Virginia has someone working with her who lives and provides services---believe it or not---close to me! I've contacted her via email, given her a synopsis of the situation, and arranged to talk with her tomorrow to set up a consult. 

Given the information I sent, she thinks Blue's probably leash reactive, not aggressive. Last night, I took him to the Control Off Lead class. (He did very well.) The trainer says she sees no sign of aggression, but he is leash reactive. I talked to his breeder, whose diagnosis was the same. 

As I understand from the behaviorist's email, she'll do an initial two-hour home visit, followed by three more one-hour visits, plus several 20 minute phone calls. I'm much encouraged. Leash reactivity we can handle.

I'll keep you posted.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Great update! It sounds like you're making head way for sure. It sounds like this person is in line with what my suspicion was...more of a leash reactivity than and aggressive type behavior. That is very common and with practice and good progressive techniques, you should be able to get loads of improvement. Good luck. The method Chagall'smom posted is excellent too!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

good show, judy. hope this works out and you will come back to tell us what the behaviorist thinks is the cause of the leash reactiveness and what she recommends to change it. as i said, you could help others. it seems everytime on these boards we have heard about a dog barking and lunging, the tendency has been to assume just plain old dog aggression or fear aggression, which is pretty discouraging for an owner. i hope your experience will be a source of help for others in realizing that the default cause of barking and lunging is not necessarily dog or fear aggression.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Just getting caught up on this thread, and Judy, I feel your pain! It sounds like you've made great strides already though. Working with a behaviorist was a great help to me with Lily; it was worth every penny. Please keep us posted, and good luck!


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

I just found this thread, had an idea, and had to read all the posts to make sure someone didn't advise it first. But you did use it!

Turid Rugaas, Norwegian trainer and creator of the "Calming Signals" DVD and similar seminars, suggested in a book of hers that if you have a dog that's being reactive toward another dog that you step between them, facing the approaching dog, with your dog behind you. She says this tells both dogs, in dog body language, that you will handle the situation. That way your dog doesn't feel like he has to handle it because you didn't. This works surprisingly well with my reactive girl rat terrier. If she's out front, then Katy bar the door. Behind me, little Miss Manners.

Just think to yourself, as you make the maneuver, that you're telling them "I've got this one, don't worry about it."

(No leash pops were used in the performance of this demonstration.)


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Blue spent most of his time in a crate during the Control Off Leash class last night, as did the only other dog in the class, an 18 week female GSD (who is just about the cutest little critter I've seen for a while). The goal for the evening was for Blue to stop barking at everything he saw, which he did almost completely, with copious treats raining down on him, and for both dogs to learn to wait to exit the crate. Blue already knows this, so it was just a reminder for him. A couple of times, he saw the other dog, or dogs that were arriving for the next class and started his bark-bark-bark, so I stepped between him and whatever the stimulus was, with my back to him, to block his view and stop the barking. I hadn't thought about it sending the dog a signal that I'd take care of it, though. That's good.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I use Turid Rugaas' "I've got it covered" method to stop barking at home too - it does mean actually getting up and investigating the trigger for the barking, but it works like a charm (and spending less time sitting is probably good for my health, too!).


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Today we met the behaviorist, Jennifer, for the first time. This miserable weather makes our roads dangerous enough that we've had to delay until most of the snow and ice had melted. She spent about an hour and a half at our house, asking questions and watching the dogs interact with each other and with us, then went to Blue's advanced beginner training class with me. He was an absolute angel here at home, once the initial excitement of meeting a new person wore off, but as soon as we got to class, while we were still outside the building, she saw his less-than-angelic behavior. Fortunately, it was the Porti that belongs to Blue's Control Off Lead instructor who roused his demon--having seen it before, Colleen was not startled by the lunging, barking, and growling. Once we got into the building, Blue did pretty well, although he did lunge and bark at a couple of other dogs. 

Jennifer says he's displaying mixed signals, like semi-play bows combined with a tail that, while it's wagging, is held erect. She thinks he is dog-aggressive rather than leash reactive, or at least that's what I understood as we talked briefly after class. She probably didn't want to say too much until she got home and had time to think about what she had seen. She did advise me to get a Gentle Leader head halter (not a Halti) and start desensitizing him to it. She's going to write up a detailed set of instructions and include a link to a video about using the Gentle Leader properly, e-mail it to me tomorrow, and then make a second visit next Saturday. I suppose we'll get a more in-depth analysis then.

My husband and I both like her very much. She's calm, comfortable with the dogs, and knowledgeable. I'm looking forward to talking with her again next Saturday.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

looking forward to hearing what your behaviorist has to say. i am still curious about whether blue acts in the same way when you are not around. thanks for keeping us in the loop. hoping for good news.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Good! Glad to hear that you are working through your issues with Blue. It never hurts to learn as much as you can about your dog; and sometimes you just need to hear a (dog savy) stranger's perspective. Blue is going to be a very nice dog when he matures.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Jennifer sent me the first week's plan for Blue. Her initial assessment is "aggression toward other dogs that appears to be leash reactivity." She described him as "friendly, energetic, and bright," and thinks because he's young and hasn't had a long history of problem behavior, success is likely. 

She advised us to buy a Gentle Leader head halter and spend the next week getting him accustomed to wearing it and then walking with it. (About 15 years ago, I had a bad experience with some type of head halter on my son's pointer mix, but Hiram was an escape artist of the first order, and most likely I didn't use it properly, so despite some reservations, I did as she advised.) The Gentle Leader came with a DVD and very specific instructions for its use, and I've taken care to follow them to the letter. Given plenty of treats, Blue didn't object at all to having the halter put on for fitting. He's been wearing it just during feedings and for a few minutes a couple of times a day. This afternoon, we did a very short walk outside. He did fairly well, again with lots of treats, so I think we can make this work. At present, though, we aren't to use the GL except at home. 

She also wants me to continue redirection and treating for appropriate behavior around other dogs. She wants me to arrange for Blue to have an opportunity to be around other dogs, with her present, when we can have him relatively free. She suggested using a 30 foot line and a muzzle until she can determine just how he will behave. She says she doesn't use muzzles often, and this will be just until we see what happens when he isn't restrained by a leash. The 30 foot line is to give her a way to interrupt and control him if necessary. I'm going to talk to Trish and Colleen, see if they'll be willing to meet me at their training facility with one or two of their calm dogs, and let Blue interact with them under those circumstances. patk, you'll be interested to know Jennifer wants to handle Blue herself to see what he does when I'm not on the other end of the leash. She doesn't seem to think he's resource guarding, rather that my body language is amping him up.

I had hoped to have that set up by this weekend, but we've had more terrible weather, which has delayed it by at least another week. Blue's class was cancelled Wednesday night, so I couldn't talk to Trish and Colleen, and by the next day we had over a foot of snow, single digit temperatures, a big tree down across the driveway, dangerous road conditions, aaaand then our electricity went off for about 36 hours. My blessed son-in-law was able to get out here Friday to bring us a load of firewood--we were down to our last log, and I was beginning to look at the furniture. He brought his chainsaw, so he and Rich cut the tree and moved it out of the way, the power came back on Friday afternoon, today it's in the forties, the snow is melting rapidly, the roads are passable again, and my daffodils are coming up. Maybe spring is coming after all.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

thanks for all the detail. it really helps to have a clear picture of where people are coming from on issues and how they are approaching them. i do know that after my own dog started yelling at every dog we met (when the female became part of my family), i started tightening up on his leash every time i spotted a dog first. took about two times for him to figure that out, stop whatever he was doing and start looking around for the culprit. so i was contributing. but i know i was not the cause of the barking; just not a real resource as far as he was concerned!


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Ugh, hope the weather gives you a break soon. It's hard to concentrate on dog training when you are worried about surviving! My daughter in Tennessee has been snowed in three times and then fell/slid down her long driveway, too. Her retired service dog provided help on the first fall, but then decided it was every one for herself. Poor old dog was having plenty of trouble staying upright. Anyhow, I hope you get thawed out, dried out and maybe even warmed up. Blue can wait for things to calm down.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

It's been three weeks since I last posted. At home Blue continues to be an absolute delight (although he did chew up some of my knitting this afternoon, so I'm not feeling all warm and fuzzy toward him right this minute.) He's friendly, loving, quick to learn, has never shown any aggression toward Jazz or toward humans. 

Both trainers who have worked with Jazz and Blue over the past year agreed to bring their dogs to the training facility an hour before Blue's Control Off Lead class so the behaviorist could evaluate him. Trish's dog Clint, a Malinois, has played with Blue several times in the past, without incident, but that was when Blue was five or six months old, just before he started showing aggressive behavior. Since then, he has barked and lunged at Clint while Clint was crated. Colleen's porti Armada has never played with Blue, but Blue has also lunged and growled at him without provocation.

I had sent Jennifer a video the previous week of Blue and Jazz playing outside. Her assessment was that they were "two pro-social dogs playing very well together." I muzzled him, Jennifer put him on a thirty foot line, we released him, and he immediately lunged across the floor and attacked Clint. Only the muzzle prevented an all-out fight. Jennifer had to reel him in to break it up. Colleen brought Armada in, but we didn't try the muzzle again. Jennifer was more interested in how Blue would behave on lead for her with more than one dog around. He was clearly more stimulated rather than less with the second dog there and tried to get to Armada. Jennifer worked with him a bit, but he was no better for her than he is for me. 

Her follow-up and plan refinement begins this way: "During the assessment yesterday, we saw a representation of how Blue would behave toward other dogs while off-leash. Unfortunately, what we had hoped would be aggression limited to leash reactivity appears to be more generalized inter-dog aggression. While this makes more work for us, it certainly does not mean that Blue's behavior cannot be modified."

I had asked her about "flooding" or exposing him to increasing levels of stimulation. She said, "Yesterday's assessment confirmed that more dogs result in more stimulation and less focus on _anything else_ for Blue. While [flooding] may work for some dogs, it is not improving Blue's behavior. In fact, the somewhat frequent exposure to multiple dogs at once appears to be increasing his stress and aggression. Because of this, I believe that smaller step are necessary."

She advised me to take him out of both of his group classes, continue all of the things I've been doing--frequents treats, reinforcing "watch me," redirecting as necessary, and gradually working closer to a stimulus as he remains calm--but to do it in a less stimulating environment, such as a park. So, I took him to a nearby park. The first time, Rich and Jazz were with me, and it didn't go too badly, although Blue had some trouble with hyper-focusing, and he did lunge at a Boston Terrier whose owner had a flexi-leash and didn't understand my request to "Keep your dog back, please! Keep your dog back!" until he saw that Blue had evil intentions. I thought it wasn't a bad start.

Rich couldn't go with me the next day, so Blue and I went alone. He was absolutely hyper-focused from the time the car stopped. I had parked far away from as much activity as I could. The only dogs were in the dog park, which was a hundred yards or more away, but he was so excessively stimulated by EVERYTHING (ducks, birds, people, cars) that he couldn't respond to me at all. I stood by the car, used it and my body to block his sight, tried to lure him with meat, tried to get his attention, but he was unable to attend to me at all. He didn't fight the leash, but it was as if I didn't exist. He even barked at two people jogging by some distance away. It wasn't a threatening bark, but it wasn't friendly or excited, either. I wouldn't approach a dog that sounded like that. After a few minutes, I put him back in the car and went home, very much distressed. 

I sent Jennifer an e-mail detailing the meltdown. I reiterated what I told her in the beginning, that Blue has had daily opportunity, from the time he was ten weeks old, to play off lead with Jazz, sometimes inside, sometimes in the yard, twice a day in a three or four acre meadow, with lots of activity and stimulation. He isn't restricted by a leash unless it's necessary for his safety. He started classes with other dogs when he was four or five months old and seemed to enjoy them very much. He's never been treated harshly. I'm realistic enough to accept blame when it's due, but Rich and I absolutely did not cause this behavior. 

She responded that she had talked to her supervisor. They agreed he seems to be hormone driven more than they usually see, so they strongly advised that we have him surgically neutered. As much as we had hoped to avoid it, we seem to have reached a point where it's worth a try. The aggressive behavior is definitely getting worse, despite all our intervention, so he was neutered last Monday. 

We dropped him off at 7:30, were supposed to pick him up after 4:00 p.m. We ran errands all morning and came back to find a message from the vet, timed 11:15, saying that Blue did well with the surgery, was awake and alert, and was "stressing out in the back," (I'm guessing that meant he was barking at every other dog within sight or smell), so we could come get him whenever we wanted (unspoken was "the sooner, the better.") 

Dr. Fleming said it takes two to three months for testosterone levels to drop, so we shouldn't expect to see any improvement before then, if ever. In a way, that's reassuring. He was zeutered almost exactly two months ago, and I've been concerned that the expected 50% drop in testosterone was having no effect at all. Maybe enough time hasn't passed. 

In any event, it's been a week. He's supposed to have restricted activity for ten days. He seems to have healed well, so I'll try taking him back to the park in a day or two. I don't expect miracles, but I do hope he'll start to show some improvement by June. He's our dog, no matter what, and he'll stay with us unless he shows aggression toward humans or starts to bully Jazz. Then we'll have to reassess.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Your story is very sobering. Such a difficult situation and it sounds like you have tried multiple strategies so far to modify Blue's unexpectedly aggressive behavior. I agree, there is nothing you could have done better as far as socialization goes - he has been enrolled in puppy classes, he plays, has been socialized. This is such a puzzle!

I hope you will see improvement in the coming weeks!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

You need the _Control Unleashed_ program. It's specifically designed for the reactive, overstimulated dog and takes you through lots of exercises, step-by-step, to deal with such a beast. Everything is based on positive methods. It was invaluable for Sugarfoot after his attack, and now he's a successful Agility dog who can be surrounded by other dogs and stay focused on me. (Mind you, he can't *play* with them, but that's not my goal!) 

Here's a link to the book on Amazon.

Control Unleashed: Creating a Focused and Confident Dog: Leslie McDevitt: 9781892694171: Amazon.com: Books

There's a Puppy Program book, too, and I bought it to have on hand for the next dog! 

Good luck. It sounds like a really tough situation.

--Q


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

neutering does help some dogs and i hope it helps blue. i suppose it depends what circuits are being fired in the brain. that same kind of overwhelming drive appeared in my neutered male lowchen when i walked him with the female. one night we encountered an off-leash mastiff and despite my moving to stand between my dog and the mastiff, i simply could not turn off the switch. you could practically see the puzzlement on the mastiff's face - as in, what did i do?


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Quossum said:


> You need the _Control Unleashed_ program. It's specifically designed for the reactive, overstimulated dog and takes you through lots of exercises, step-by-step, to deal with such a beast. Everything is based on positive methods. It was invaluable for Sugarfoot after his attack, and now he's a successful Agility dog who can be surrounded by other dogs and stay focused on me. (Mind you, he can't *play* with them, but that's not my goal!)
> 
> -Q


I have _Click to Calm _, which I'm guessing is pretty much the same approach as _Control Unleashed_. The behaviorist uses the same philosophy--lots of treats and reinforcement for good behavior, starting with little stimulation and working up to more stimulation as behavior improves, no punishment or harsh corrections. It's the basis for the behaviorist's plan.

What happened to Sugarfoot? I don't recall seeing that story.

My goal is the same as yours. I don't care if Blue never plays with another dog except Jazz as long as he lives, but I do want to be able to have him around other dogs without having to be hyper-vigilant myself to prevent fights. When I was thirty, we had a couple of Corgis that started fighting. I didn't really enjoy breaking up fights between 25 pound dogs then, and I'd like it even less now, especially with a dog twice the size of a Corgi.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

patk said:


> neutering does help some dogs and i hope it helps blue. i suppose it depends what circuits are being fired in the brain. that same kind of overwhelming drive appeared in my neutered male lowchen when i walked him with the female. one night we encountered an off-leash mastiff and despite my moving to stand between my dog and the mastiff, i simply could not turn off the switch. you could practically see the puzzlement on the mastiff's face - as in, what did i do?


Yeah, that lack of an off switch is disturbing. It spooks me a bit. At home, Blue is responsive, affectionate, friendly, easily directed, all the qualities you'd expect, but around other dogs, he's a different animal entirely. Maybe he's just developing the temperament of an adult alpha and needs an owner who is comfortable dealing with it as a matter of course. Sadly, I'm not that kind of person. In any event, I love him dearly, my husband absolutely adores him, and Jazz would be lost without him, but he is wearing me out.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

hopefully it's more like adolescence and with time and patience you will have the dog you want and deserve. out of curiosity, does your behaviorist think there is any fear involved on blue's part when he encounters other "not family" dogs?


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

She has never mentioned fear at all, and as far as I know, Blue isn't afraid of anything. He certainly hasn't ever acted afraid.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Here's the thread about Sugarfoot's attack. He was seven months old.

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/20263-sugarfoot-attacked-pit-bull.html

It sounds like you're in good hands with your trainer, but I'd still check out _Control Unleashed_ for some additional activities and "games" to do, as well as insights about that type of behavior. It's a great resource.

--Q


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

That's a really frightening story, Quossum. Unleashed dogs were the bane of my existence when I was riding my bicycle regularly, but I was fortunate not to meet an aggressive pit bull. 

The trainers I've worked with have told me repeatedly that I should relax my hold on the leash during classes, so there's no tension, but when other, especially unfamiliar dogs are around, it's hard to trust that they'll behave properly. And, sadly, now it's Blue who may not behave. I certainly don't want Blue to cause the sort of trauma Sugarfoot experienced.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear that things are not going better with Blue. At least the zeuter bought him a few extra months of testosterone fed muscle growth. I will neuter my male around age two, if he shows too much interest in females when he is working. So far, we are not having that problem. It is so frustrating when you can't get a handle on what is driving your dog to act the way he does. And no matter how hard you try not to be nervous, it is stressful to take a dog like Blue out in public. Hopefully between the behaviorist and the trainers and the vet, there will be a solution. I think of you and Blue often, and will continue to hope for a good outcome. The little stinker can't be a teenager forever!


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Charmed said:


> I'm sorry to hear that things are not going better with Blue. At least the zeuter bought him a few extra months of testosterone fed muscle growth. I will neuter my male around age two, if he shows too much interest in females when he is working. So far, we are not having that problem. It is so frustrating when you can't get a handle on what is driving your dog to act the way he does. And no matter how hard you try not to be nervous, it is stressful to take a dog like Blue out in public. Hopefully between the behaviorist and the trainers and the vet, there will be a solution. I think of you and Blue often, and will continue to hope for a good outcome. The little stinker can't be a teenager forever!


I don't regret having him zeutered at all. It did allow him the benefits of testosterone for an extra couple of months. 

As for him not being a teenager forever, my big concern now is that he will be an alpha-type adult for the rest of his life, which I hope will be a very long time. You'd think, though, that the alpha dog would be entirely driven by testosterone and the imperative to breed, so, with that off the table for Blue, perhaps, given intensive, ongoing intervention, we'll get through this and out the other side in fine fashion.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*JudyD*, just catching up on the Blue news. Hats off to you for your wise and reasoned approach to trying to resolve his behavioral issue. I hope for and envision continued improvement ahead. Just wondering if his breeder has had any other spoos exhibit similar behavior? Regardless, I am sorry for your apprehension and worry, but boy oh boy, Blue lucked out having you for an owner. His breeder really made a wonderful placement. Hope things get easier soon, hang in there! :clover:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't know how close to other dogs you're getting but I would work on keeping him at a distance where he sees dogs and just as he alerts but before he reacts, start clicking (or marker word) and treating, one after the other. Then walk away further as a sign to him that this yucky stimulus will go away, that he won't have to deal with it. I wouldn't treat ONLY for good behavior. He's not likely thinking much about his own behavior. Just treat for an association with other dogs, regardless of his behavior. Personally, I'd skip the classes for now where he has to be up close and I'd take him places where you can control how far away you are from dogs...like in the parking lot of a pet store. Stay well back and practice "look at that" or "look at me" and pairing good things with other dogs.

Another thing you can do is at home, you can stand there in the kitchen and pull him up close with the leash and deliver high value treats, rapid fire style as you create tension in the leash. Repeat. Yank up on it a little without causing pain or making it seem like a punishment. Just create a little roughness and pair that with very good things...praise, special treats. Do it over and over for several days. Advance to grabbing it and pulling him toward you as you. Then practice in the presence of Jazz and in other locations and contexts. It is extremely difficult to keep a relaxed hold on a leash when your dog is pulling and lunging. He will always create tension in the leash himself. So, rather than worrying about the tight leash making things worse, why not turn that tightening leash into a good thing? Also, while you do this exercise, act nervous, make a vocalization like you might if you were uptight in some encounter where he would be acting up. Start making that into a cool thing by pairing it with something he loves. 

Every time he is too close to a dog and he gets beside himself and reacts the way he does, he is not being desensitized. He's being _flooded _and the progress is stopped. He must have lots of time....it can take MONTHS upon MONTHS to gradually get desensitized to dogs. Anytime you're trying to prevent him from going nutso on another dog, he MUST have something else to do instead. So looking at you, looking at something else is what replaces that feeling of anxiousness or whatever it is he's feeling when he gets too close to a dog. He needs to be diverted and given something else to concentrate on. And that can't happen if he goes beyond alerting when he sees a dog. Right at that very second, things need to start happening fast to give him an alternative. And then walk away with some praise._ "You did it Blue! Yeah!" _ Exercise over. Hopefully, he'll start becoming aware of his own behavior. But he can't when his adrenaline, respiration, blood pressure, stress hormones are all elevated. He can't learn anything as long as he's stressed. That's fight or flight and the cortex doesn't work when he's in that mode.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I like the idea of tightening the leash/rewarding. As you point out, it's impossible to keep the leash loose as you remove the dog from a stimulus. I'll work on that. Otherwise, what you suggest is basically what we've been doing. 

Sometimes, though, he gets wound up by EVERYTHING he sees--it can happen really fast--and there's no interrupting him. As I said in an earlier post, suddenly I don't exist for him. He's so focused on whatever it is that stimulates him (in those instances, I don't have any idea what got him going--he's reacting to the entire environment, not focused on a particular thing) that he can't see/hear me or see/smell even raw meat treats. There's no option then but to go back home. 

I am coming to realize this is a very long-term project. Fortunately for Blue, he's a charmer at home, and I have time, so it's worth the attempt.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

JudyD said:


> I like the idea of tightening the leash/rewarding. As you point out, it's impossible to keep the leash loose as you remove the dog from a stimulus. I'll work on that. Otherwise, what you suggest is basically what we've been doing.
> 
> *Sometimes, though, he gets wound up by EVERYTHING he sees--it can happen really fast--and there's no interrupting him. As I said in an earlier post, suddenly I don't exist for him. He's so focused on whatever it is that stimulates him (in those instances, I don't have any idea what got him going--he's reacting to the entire environment, not focused on a particular thing) that he can't see/hear me or see/smell even raw meat treats. There's no option then but to go back home. *
> I am coming to realize this is a very long-term project. Fortunately for Blue, he's a charmer at home, and I have time, so it's worth the attempt.


There's something wrong there. Either he had no socialization IF he's going ape sh!! over literally *EVERYTHING* in the environment or he's got an unstable temperament. Now, I understand that he did have ample socialization. Did he have it early enough? (between birth and 14-16 weeks) If you can pick out some stimuli that is triggering this nervousness, you could start desensitizing him to that thing, then this other thing. But if it's literally everything, then I am at a loss, other than asking a vet about it and seeing if some kind of drug would help in conjunction with behavior modification. It sounds like a very difficult situation. But it sounds like you're in good hands with your trainer and maybe I'm missing something here and she'll have something better for you. One thing is for sure, he's got one heck of a tenacious mom who is doing everything under the sun to help him adjust. Kudos to you for that.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I haven't explained very well. Maybe I've unintentionally made him sound like a raving maniac, but he isn't. He isn't going nuts at everything, but sometimes he just gets fixated (I'm not always sure what it is that catches his interest--I can't see anything that looks to me like an aversive stimulus) and can't be redirected. Whatever he sees is far more stimulating than either me or pieces of high-value treats, so he just completely blocks me out and ignores me. When he's hyper-vigilant to that degree, the best way to stop it is to leave. He really only gets actively wound up, leaping and growling and barking, if there are other dogs too close, and right now too close is pretty far away.

As I said in an earlier post, the behaviorist saw a video of him playing with Jazz and characterized them as "two pro-social dogs playing very well together." He behaves perfectly at home, makes good eye contact, responds to commands well, etc. I've never had a dog-aggressive dog before, so it may look worse to me than it is and spook me more than is warranted, but the trainers and the behaviorist all agree it's a real problem that needs to be dealt with before it escalates to an unmanageable level.

I took him to the park this morning and didn't feed him before we went, so those treats were more interesting. He behaved pretty well, let a couple of people pass us from behind without barking, walked fairly well on a loose lead, obeyed the "watch me" command almost every time. We didn't encounter any dogs, although he did see a few of them across the parking lot as we were driving out. He barked at them three or four times, but it wasn't really an angry bark, and he quieted quickly. So--today was a good day. Tomorrow may not be, but even tiny steps forward make me happy.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

A happy update on Blue! It's been four weeks since he was neutered. Rich and I thought we could see some difference in less than two weeks. He's been steadily improving on our daily walks at the park. I haven't seen the hyper-focus for three weeks or so, he pretty much ignores ducks and joggers, is more than willing to let passers-by pet him. 

Yesterday the behaviorist met us there and walked with us for almost an hour. She was surprised and very pleased at the improvement she saw. She pointed out that now he seems to take exception almost exclusively to dogs that are approaching us. He's much better about dogs that are moving away or are some distance away and not approaching. She showed me some refinements for my handling of volatile situations, which make it easier to deflect him--or he's just getting easier to deflect. 

I'm beyond relieved. We love this dog, and, even had I known when we picked him that dog aggression was going to be a problem, his positive attributes are so, well, positive, that I'd pick him again in a heartbeat.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

very happy for you. gives a new meaning to the term "teenage hormones," though, doesn't it? blue is lucky he ended up in your home and not someone else's. it's good to be loved.


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