# Neutering advice?



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

PaddleAddict said:


> My mini Jager will be 9 months old in a few weeks. I am starting to think about his neuter, but I am not really sure when to do it. My breeder said 10 to 11 months, but I am nervous that he won't be done growing yet? How do you know when their bones have stopped growing? I don't want to do it too soon and risk him growing too tall. I like my poodles square, LOL.
> 
> Should I just wait until he's a year old to be safe? The downside to that is my vet will want to vaccinate him at 1 year and I don't want to give him a bunch of vaccines at the same time as the surgical procedure.
> 
> On a side note, this is going to be a pricey procedure. He's cryptorchid, so the neuter will cost more, and he has a retained deciduous canine that needs to be pulled. Plus, I want to run a full blood panel and urinalysis before his first anesthetic procedure. Oh, and he's getting a microchip. Poor little guy...


I recommend that my males pups are done at about 14 months. This gives them a chance to build muscle and bulk and be all they can be. I find boys done younger stay lanky and lean and feminine. Good luck. He will be as good as new a couple of days aftger the procedure. They are so resilient.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Thank you Arreau... I do want him to look masculine, not lanky and tall and feminine like you said. Do you think there is a difference for minis and standards? Meaning, will a mini mature more quickly than a standard?

If I do wait until 14 months, do you think I should have a separate procedure done for his tooth? It doesn't seem to be affecting his bite at all, but it's crowding his permanent canine and I worry that food is getting trapped in there and causing damage to the permanent tooth. I just hate to do two anestheic procedures withing a few months of each other...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

PaddleAddict said:


> Thank you Arreau... I do want him to look masculine, not lanky and tall and feminine like you said. Do you think there is a difference for minis and standards? Meaning, will a mini mature more quickly than a standard?
> 
> If I do wait until 14 months, do you think I should have a separate procedure done for his tooth? It doesn't seem to be affecting his bite at all, but it's crowding his permanent canine and I worry that food is getting trapped in there and causing damage to the permanent tooth. I just hate to do two anestheic procedures withing a few months of each other...


Personally, I am with you. Every time a dog or human has anesthesia there is a risk, so eliminate one risk by having everything done at once. I am not sure if there is a difference between how quickly a mini matures VS a standard. I do know there is a big difference between toys and standards. In the meantime, while you wait, can you brush his teeth every day? You can get thoser little finger brushes and peanut butter or chicken flavoured toothpaste.


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## debjen (Jan 4, 2010)

All my other dogs were done at 6 months and Flyer was done at about 9 months..we were shooting for a year but he started trying to pee on one of the other dogs so his breeder agreed that it was time. He is now about 21 months and still square



















He is lean but purposely lean as he is a performance dog and I don't want him caring to much weight when jumping..

not the best pics for looking at his body shape. I should get him on a grooming table so I can get some straight on shots.

Forgot to add Flyer had one undescended testicle luckily it was just above so they didn't have to dig very far for it. He came home that same night from the vet not knowing he had anything done.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Poppy had retained deciduous teeth, too - I was advised by a friend who breeds papillons to wait until she was 12 months before having them pulled, as long as they weren't distorting her bite. One came out at about 9.5 months, one at nearly 11 months. They were only wobbly for a day or two. I took especial care with tooth cleaning, etc, and there don't seem to be any long term effects from leaving them. I was glad I waited - any anaesthetic is a risk.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Thanks for letting me know how Flyer turned out. 

I used to work in a veterianry hospital years ago, and I was a huge proponent of early spay and neuter back then. I agreed with the younger, the better mentality. 

Now, I have completely changed my opinions about automatically spaying an neutering (both early and at all). So much reserach has come out in recent years about negative health affects of altering dogs, most specifically early altering. It seems there is much we don't know...

That said, I am still for spaying and neutering for the most part, but just not as early as I used to think... I get so many weird looks and comments, even from my vet who is somewhat progressive, but doesn't really understand the desire to wait to neuter. I have explained that I don't want to it affect his growth at all, and he asked why it matters if he's not a show dog. Well, it matters to me, both for looks (I want him to look the way a poodle should look) and for movement, and also some studies have shown an increased risk orthopedic disorders in dogs that are spayed or neutered too early. It's frustrating that I feel more up to date about these topics than my vet. The same thing goes for vaccines, he sort of gets it, but not to the extent that I would like. Don't get me wrong, I do like my vet and he's not pushy about these things, he allows me to make the decision without trying to pressure me into anything I am not comfortable with, but I do wish vets were more up with the times...


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

In Regilna they have a spay/neuter program. If you get your dog fixed between 6 and 8 months its cheaper than if you wait. The program is funded by the City and by the vets. I assume its done to try to eliminate unwanted puppies that end up at the Humane Society. But seeing that the vets are the ones doing the surgery, they must think its safe.

Is there any proof that early spaying or neutering makes the male dogs tall and lanky and looking like females? What about a female - what do people believe happens to a female if you spay around six months old?


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Purley said:


> In Regilna they have a spay/neuter program. If you get your dog fixed between 6 and 8 months its cheaper than if you wait. The program is funded by the City and by the vets. I assume its done to try to eliminate unwanted puppies that end up at the Humane Society. But seeing that the vets are the ones doing the surgery, they must think its safe.


I didn’t mean to imply that I think it’s unsafe to spay or neuter young, just that it may not be so cut and dry. To be honest, I don’t agree with all vets—many vets still think yearly vaccinations are safe, and I certainly do not. I just look at spaying and neutering differently than I used to. I'm putting more thought into it now and doing more research.



Purley said:


> Is there any proof that early spaying or neutering makes the male dogs tall and lanky and looking like females? What about a female - what do people believe happens to a female if you spay around six months old?


I know that at least one study has demonstrated a higher risk of hip dysplasia in dogs neutered before 6 months of age (compared to those neutered later).

Many people (breeders, trainers, etc.) have told me that spaying or neutering (males and females) before a dog is done growing can affect height—the dog grows too tall—because it affects the hormones that are released to tell the growth plates to close and the bones to stop growing. I believe there are studies that demonstrate this, but I would have to search for them.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

debjen said:


> All my other dogs were done at 6 months and Flyer was done at about 9 months..we were shooting for a year but he started trying to pee on one of the other dogs so his breeder agreed that it was time. He is now about 21 months and still square.


By the way, I just love Flyers glorious ears!!!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Just an update, but I did go ahead with the neuter. His retained baby tooth started causing problems with the permanent tooth next to it and the vet wanted to pull it right away. I struggled with the decision but in the end didn't want him to go through another anesthetic procedure in a few more months. 

My vet (who I like) told me that neutering young dogs doesn't affect growth, which is somewhat disheartening to hear because the research is out there, I am reading it, so shouldn't she (and he, it's a two-vet practice)? 

Oh well, he only gained .2 pounds in the last eight weeks, so his growth has slowed way down. I will cross my fingers that he grows properly.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

PA, given that he's a mini, I suspect that he was pretty close to being fully grown. Sometimes people x-ray to see if the growth plates have closed. 

The research on the pros and cons of spay/neuter is fairly recent and evolving. Plus it has gotten so political, especially in CA! Was your vet saying it is OK to spay/neuter at say, 3 months, or that it was OK to neuter a mini at 9 months? I would say the first might be a red/yellow flag, but the second wouldn't.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

She was saying that she didn't see much different in neutering younger than 6 months and neutering after full growth has been attained. She said maybe with Labs, they will have blockier heads, but that's all the difference you will see.

I know it is not cut and dry, but I wish she had some knowledge of the studies out there, like the one that showed males dogs neutered before 5.5 months of age had a higher incidence of hip dysplasia. 

She also said you have to spay before the first heat, but some studies now say to do it later, so it would be nice to know she's reading up and at least considering the new information.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

When I mentioned this to my vet, she said that there were people who thought that early spay/neuter would affect the growth and result in a leggier dog, she wasn't totally convinced that she agreed with it. She didn't say she had never heard of it, just that like lots of things, some vets believe it and some don't. 

I have always had males before but I never waited. This time I am getting a female and I am not sure that I want to find out what having a female in heat involves - so regardless of the outcome, I will probably have her spayed between six and eight months and save myself some money.


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## Charley'sMom (Jun 16, 2011)

Hi Paddleaddict,

I know it's been a month since the last post but I was looking for advice on post neutering care and came across your post. I too was prepared to wait a year to have my silver mini neutered after reading forum posts. But, Charley also had retained one of his baby canines and I was faced with the exact same dilemma. Also, one of Charley's testicles had not dropped and my first vet said I should wait up to a year to see if it would drop. For various reasons, I decided to change vets (after 13 years!). When I went to the new vet I brought up the subject of age and neutering. He knew exactly what I was talking about and proceeded to explain how in the 90's when the SPCA started the practice of not releasing adoptees until they were altered, no matter their age, and that the controversy started from there. He felt very confident that neutering him at 6 months was not going to affect him health or structurally in any way. I'm not an expert and certainly do not have a strong opinion one way or the other. But, I was concerned about waiting another 6 months to have the tooth removed. Also, my first vet had led me to believe that Charley's neuter would definitely be more complicated because of his testicles where the new vet explained that he could feel it and was quite sure he would be able to get to it without the more invasive surgery. And that is exactly how it went! So, I'd been worrying about that for months.

So my question for you is, how did recovery go? It's the day after and of course I'm monitoring his activity but he is a wild boy! They told me to keep him very low key for 5-7 days and I don't know if I'll be able to endure his protests. How did things go with your little guy?


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

My vet recommended waiting until AT LEAST 12 months, to be sure the pup had developed fully --- unless, of course, the dog had started behavior issues, which mine have never. I waited until Jake was 13 months and am glad I did. The thinking now is that unless it becomes a problem, it is much better to wait until they are fully developed -- again, this is taking into account the health of the dog, not necessarily which is the most economical -- and, as we all know, owning a poodle is not for the faint of heart where it comes to expenses.................... but I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## Charley'sMom (Jun 16, 2011)

I can only speak from my personal experience. Henri, my Standard and only other dog, was neutered at 6 months which was back in 1996, before this discussion ever started. He lived to be 15, was a very sturdy, handsome boy. He got tons of vigorous exercise his whole life and showed no signs of lameness, etc., although he did start to slow down at about 13.5 from basic aging. He also had beautiful teeth to the end. I don't think Paddleaddict was trying to save money.

Here's a picture of Handsome Henri!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Ha ha, this thread is a year old!

Anyway, I wasn't trying to save money. The vet thought the tooth needed to come out right away because it was causing decay to a permanent tooth. I didn't want to put him under anesthesia twice in just a few months, so decided to do the neuter earlier (for health reasons, not financial). I still wish I could have waited longer (1 year), but I am comfortable with the decision. He's almost 2 now, and in great physical condition. 

It was HARD to keep him quiet after the neuter! I remember laughing when the vet said to keep him quiet--yeah right! He was also cryptorchid (retained testicle), so it was more invasive than a regular neuter. Just do your best to keep him quiet. He will be all healed before you know it.


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## lmperez (Sep 7, 2011)

I realize this is an older post but I was wondering if if you expereienced any of the worries of him being leggy or more femine? I am debating what to do. I am so confused after reading all the articles and research about neutering to early. I have not found anything to recent. Most of the resaerch is dated back in 2009. My guy is almost 8 mos with a retained testicle. My vet seems to be unawre of all the research out there. He has not had any behaviors as of yet but I can't afford for those behaviors to be part of his life. I do have other dogs and plan on trining him to work with kids w autism and hospital work. I also plan on doing obed abd agility. I am so confused. Most people say to wait until 12-14 mos.


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## Charley'sMom (Jun 16, 2011)

lmperez said:


> I realize this is an older post but I was wondering if if you expereienced any of the worries of him being leggy or more femine? I am debating what to do. I am so confused after reading all the articles and research about neutering to early. I have not found anything to recent. Most of the resaerch is dated back in 2009. My guy is almost 8 mos with a retained testicle. My vet seems to be unawre of all the research out there. He has not had any behaviors as of yet but I can't afford for those behaviors to be part of his life. I do have other dogs and plan on trining him to work with kids w autism and hospital work. I also plan on doing obed abd agility. I am so confused. Most people say to wait until 12-14 mos.


To Imperez,
Charley is going to be a year old next week. He is all boy and shows no signs of femininity. He's developed beautifully and is VERY healthy. As I posted earlier, I had him neutered at 6 months because he had a tooth that needed to be removed. He's got a fantastic personality, loves people and all other dogs. I would stop worrying and just do it!


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