# Thinking about getting a red, playmate for Snoops



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

here is the red


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Hm.. let's see.

Ask her why there's a different price for the puppies, and tell her that Snoops isn't the size you were told he was going to be.

Though what's the most you can lose from trying to haggle for the puppy? Her saying no? When I want something, or when I want to try to get something, I ASK the question, and most of the time I get the answer I want, since most people dont' ask the questions I ask.

I say that if you're serious enough about getting that puppy, then give it a shot.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

I agree Fluffy... 

When I was in the process of purchasing Snoops, I asked if there was any chance of a discount if I paid cash. She flat out said "no". Ok then.. no harm in asking.

Now that I am a 2nd time customer, and Snoops is bigger than expected, I almost feel entitled to a bit of a break... call me cheeky.. just my thoughts on it.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Besides, Snoops isn't even over a year, right? Isn't there a chance he can grow a little more?


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

you are right - he will be 11 months in just a few days. 
He looks just a wee bit bigger each month!


----------



## Mandycasey'smom (Jan 3, 2009)

I would definatly ask the worst she can say is NO.
Take snoops back and show her how big he is.
Good luck.
Just wanted to say that I think price for colour is retarded. Same dogs had the same sex haveing the same said pups. If that said dog had all black puppies why would they be cheaper from same said dog that had a red puppy.
I also think red is the colour of the month right now and breeders are ripping off people right now wanting red but that just my opinion.


----------



## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

I don't understand why you would go back to his breeder when you didn't get what you expected the first time. If you feel she ripped you off the first time, and is ripping you off again this time, why go back?? If BOTH parents are not championed I have no idea why anyone would pay $1500 for a pup, when I could get a pup with championed parents for the same amount of money.

My advice would be to find a better breeder.


----------



## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

She priced Snoops on a size he was going to be which didn't happen. We both know that his size is not her fault, but the price is! She can control how much those pups cost. I think you shouldn't ask for a discount and leave it up to her to decide what that discount is going to be. 

Rather, think of a price you feel is fair and offer her a price slightly lower. In negotiating, this will prepare the seller for a lower offer. When you compromise for a slightly higher price, you both get what you want. Trust me. I used to sell homes for a living. Also, when you do negotiate, explain that her prices before were misrepresented and you believe you are being fair as a repeat customer to offer $x price.

PS....I've been thinking about getting Zulee a sister. Just don't know yet if that is the best thing for us. Maybe rather than color, it would be neat to see who Snoops picks? Just a thought. The puppy you showed looks adorable. Just keep in mind that a few months from now, he will likely be a completely different color. No offense. It's just that poodles change color, and we need to buy knowing that is likely to happen. I expect Zulee to change too.


----------



## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

PS.... I really like my breeder. Kay Amen http:toy-poodles.com. She is close to Lufkin and prices her puppies right. She is worth checking into. If you do, let her know Lori Masterman referred you.


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, red flag is that she's pricing puppies on SIZE!! I mean duh. Who prices a puppy on size? I agree that if she shows toys and then gets oversized she will discount but not charging more because they are teeny. I wouldn't even bother with this breeder.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Mandy - I do agree that red is a hot color right now! I have been speaking with the breeder about a red for several months now. It's only been of recent that a red has been born to my liking, and also with the same Dad as Snoops  I also agree that price based on color is a bit nuts.. at the time that I got Snoops, many breeders were telling me that apricots were priced higher. 

Locket - I feel that I was ripped off because I was told one thing, and charged for that trait and in the end got another... misrepresentation, yes, if you will. 
However, I do really love Snoops and all of his other amazing qualities. He has a fantastic demeanor, adorable personality, obedient, etc, etc... this is why I would go back to the same breeder. I also like the idea of having another pup who is related to Snoops. 

BFF - I agree with everything you said! 
I will also check out your breeder.. doesn't hurt right?! And Zulee is awesome!

I should also add that the breeder had (still has) a disclaimer that she cannot ever guarantee size. Of course, I never asked for a refund and I'm sure I wouldn't even have got one after the fact. But seeing that I am coming back, and she is aware that Snoops is so much bigger than she had projected is reason why I feel I should get a lower price on puppy #2.


----------



## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Locket said:


> I don't understand why you would go back to his breeder when you didn't get what you expected the first time. If you feel she ripped you off the first time, and is ripping you off again this time, why go back?? If BOTH parents are not championed I have no idea why anyone would pay $1500 for a pup, when I could get a pup with championed parents for the same amount of money.
> 
> My advice would be to find a better breeder.


:dito:


----------



## kathy09 (Jan 14, 2009)

The puppy sure looks picture perfect he is beautiful.


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Locket said:


> I don't understand why you would go back to his breeder when you didn't get what you expected the first time. If you feel she ripped you off the first time, and is ripping you off again this time, why go back?? If BOTH parents are not championed I have no idea why anyone would pay $1500 for a pup, when I could get a pup with championed parents for the same amount of money.
> 
> My advice would be to find a better breeder.


Agreed.


----------



## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

cuddleparty said:


> So attached is a photo of the most ADORABLE red male tiny toy poodle... from the same breeder whom I purchased Snoops. I'm seriously thinking about getting this little guy. I would love to have a red, and I'm sure Snoops would love a poodle buddy. They share a Dad, but different Mom.. they would be half brothers!
> 
> Here's the thing - I paid ALOT for Snoops. I was told his price was according to size. That he would be tiny (between 4-6lbs). Snoops now stands 10" (almost 11") tall and weighs over 8lbs (he is not overweight). He is quite big - much bigger than I had anticipated. I love him nonetheless. The breeder told me that sometimes the Standard Poodle gene is dominant and that may be why Snoops ended up so big. Ok.. makes sense.. I think!
> I feel I paid too much, given his current measurements. I should also add - I guess his price was also reflective of his Dad being a CKC Champion.
> ...


the breeder told you that some times the standard poodle gene is dominant? 
is she breeding toys to standards? 

frankly if a breeder is pricing on color- run away, I can see a breeder selling puppies that will stay within standard for their variety being more expensive than ones that will be over sized, but the pups that will be oversized should be on limited reg. and on spay/neuter contracts... the price should reflect that 
but if shes using terms like tiny toy or teacup, again run away


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

JMO, but I think you should go w/ a different breeder. I've kept my opinions to myself after reading about your breeder in other posts, but she doesn't sound to great to me. Pricing based on size and color and her excuses for why she does that are bogus. Any well bred Poodle, which I'm not sure you would be getting from her, should have a good personality and being related doesn't mean this new pup will be anything like Snoops. You also run the risk of setting the new pup up for failure by comparing the two. 

My neighbors lost their Lab a few years ago. I don't care for Labs but Hunter was a truly special dog. After he died (at a young age) my neighbors found out his littermate had sired a litter of pups. They ended up getting two pups from this litter (big mistake right there). Neither pup is anything like Hunter in personality. From what I've heard about Bullet, the puppies' sire, he's not much like Hunter either. The lady is disabled and the dogs are quite dangerous for her to be around; they've already knocked her down more than once. Hunter was very careful around her and the rest of their dogs (all toy breeds).


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

frostfirestandards said:


> the breeder told you that some times the standard poodle gene is dominant?
> is she breeding toys to standards?
> 
> frankly if a breeder is pricing on color- run away, I can see a breeder selling puppies that will stay within standard for their variety being more expensive than ones that will be over sized, but the pups that will be oversized should be on limited reg. and on spay/neuter contracts... the price should reflect that
> but if shes using terms like tiny toy or teacup, again run away


She does not use the term "teacup" but does refer to them as "tiny toy". I know that several on here are opposed to those terms, but I'm ok with it... I understand being aware of that tho. 

My understanding is that she priced according to lineage, color, size, etc.. but not on just one of those traits alone (ie. not just according to color). 

I have never been really clear about what limited reg. is - if anyone wants to explain that, it would be great! That way I can clarify what it means 

Snoops was purchased, and there was a spay/neuter clause (by 6 months). 

She is breeding (tiny) toys, but explained that (tiny) toys at one point in time, were bred down from standards. Therefore, the standard gene may show up as a more dominant gene/trait from time to time, thus producing a larger size toy.


----------



## MericoX (Apr 19, 2009)

Sounds like the *breeder* is pulling your leg with all the excuses. There is no such thing a teacup, or tiny toy poodles. It's just a gimmick that shady breeders will pull to get more money in their wallets.

Didn't you have alot of problems when you first got Snoops with his health? Do you really want to have another pup that goes through that?

I would also suggest waiting until he is older and you've got him a little under control.. JMHO.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> JMO, but I think you should go w/ a different breeder. I've kept my opinions to myself after reading about your breeder in other posts, but she doesn't sound to great to me. Pricing based on size and color and her excuses for why she does that are bogus. Any well bred Poodle, which I'm not sure you would be getting from her, should have a good personality and being related doesn't mean this new pup will be anything like Snoops. You also run the risk of setting the new pup up for failure by comparing the two.
> 
> My neighbors lost their Lab a few years ago. I don't care for Labs but Hunter was a truly special dog. After he died (at a young age) my neighbors found out his littermate had sired a litter of pups. They ended up getting two pups from this litter (big mistake right there). Neither pup is anything like Hunter in personality. From what I've heard about Bullet, the puppies' sire, he's not much like Hunter either. The lady is disabled and the dogs are quite dangerous for her to be around; they've already knocked her down more than once. Hunter was very careful around her and the rest of their dogs (all toy breeds).


Thanks Harley - I appreciate your opinion.. you've always had some pretty good things to say on this board. 

I'm not "married" to this breeder, but I did get Snoops from her and for that I am thankful. I'm definitely open to looking at other breeders.

I think given what info I have provided, opinions can be formed about the breeder. I'm not wanting everyone to hate on her... I got an amazing puppy from her! I am a bit bummed out about being "overcharged" the first time, and I am trying to determine what I can do to avoid this the 2nd time. 

I am still very new to this whole poodle thing.. all I know is that I love Snoops more than anything, and I love what I have learned about him and his breed so far. I know that many people on here have strict criteria when searching for a poodle and may consider Snoops to be in a "lesser class" than their dog. I'm ok with that. When I got Snoops, I thought I was getting the Gucci of poodles. Now it may be that I totally got a knock off.. and again, I'm ok with that. I know that I love the product that I ended up with. He looks like a Gucci, he is stitched like a Gucci.. he just might not have the label that says "Gucci". If I can rely on getting that same quality again by going to the same breeder that would be a real score! I just don't want to get ripped off... I don't wanna pay Gucci prices for Canal Street products. 

Your story about Hunter was touching, and it's unfortunate what happened in the end. A great story and definitely something to be aware of!


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Mericox - no health concerns for Snoops...???... if you are referring to his allergies?? that is all sorted and taken care of. I had posted that it was his nylon collar and food... since then, he has switched out his collar to a leather one, and the transition to halo spots stew was discontinued. he has since started eating wellness core and is just fine with it. 

Snoops is totally under control... 
???


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Once they are pets, all that matters is how much you love them! Talking about perspective breeders and whether or not a dog is show/breeding quality is completely different. It's obvious that you love Snoops, so that makes him "top quality." My Rottweiler is from a BYB and I found my Maltese at the city shelter. Niether is proper type, but to me they're priceless. I just don't want her to rip you off again. She doesn't sound like a great breeder and there's a chance you got lucky w/ Snoops (b/c he's healthy and has a good temperment).


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

For $1500 bucks I would look for another breeder. For her to say the standard poodle gene is dominant sounds like bs IMO .


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

i paid way more for Snoops 
but... at this point, how could i ever put a price tag on Snoops... he is priceless to me!


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

What bothers me is the adjectives and verbage she uses. To me it's looks to be all about money with those smart trend type "marketing" terms. Look at free listings for puppies online and see what the terms they use for marketing and selling puppies. They want money so they know how to catch the consumer's eye. Look for another breeder.


----------



## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Not to sound rude but are you reading what you are posting? Do you realize how big 5 pounds is? I had a rescued breeder Chihuahua that weighed 5 pounds and was TINY! Poodles are NOT suppose to be that small.

When you get these "tiny toys" you are just asking for health problems and your little 8 pounder already has issues what makes you think this puppy will be any healthier? You have stated the breeder can not guarantee size as this is the moms first litter, did you even ask about her? Where she comes from? How old she is? Has she been tested?

I agree to look elsewhere.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Ok, thanks for all of the advice and opinions... but I have to point out, I didn't post this thread so everyone can have a chance to bash the breeder. Whether or not one breeder is good, or better than the next, can be completely subjective. 

Personally, I am very happy with what she has produced. My issue is the price that she has charged - again, something that I willingly paid, but would like to work out should I decide to purchase a second poodle from her. Some of you out there may never pay that sort of money for a poodle (from her, or any other breeder for that matter), or may have certain expectations for that kind of price tag. I paid it, it's a done deal. Moving on to puppy #2, I would like to find out the best way to approach price with her. 

Allow me to clarify as well... Snoops does not have health problems. He has the same issues that all other dogs have - fleas, food allergies, etc. I'm sure many of ya'll have had similar experiences. These are NOT HEALTH PROBLEMS. 

Yes, I came on here seeking advice and it is always appreciated. However, I think that PF members (including myself) can get a little carried away sometimes with advice.. without knowing/seeing the entire big picture. Again, being subjective versus objective. Yes, ya'll are going on what info I have provided and ya'll have responded to that... 

There are many breeders, groomers, vets, techs, professionals here on PF - people who have way more knowledge than I have as a simple poodle lover. I'm thankful for the advice, but sometimes written thoughts can be miscontrued by the reader. I was hoping that some of ya'll may have had dealings similar to my situation and would be able to offer advice as to the best way to handle it. My intention was not to have everyone hate on the breeder.... so please stop.

So moving on... I got it, everyone thinks that I should seek out another breeder. Advice that I will take into consideration, and as mentioned I am open to the idea of other breeders.


----------



## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

cuddleparty said:


> Allow me to clarify as well... Snoops does not have health problems. He has the same issues that all other dogs have - fleas, food allergies, etc. I'm sure many of ya'll have had similar experiences. These are NOT HEALTH PROBLEMS.


Food allergies and trouble digesting food are NOT common issues, your dog can not ware just any collar or it makes him sick this is a _health problem_ if it was a non issue he would be able to ware nylon and eat just about anything.

So to answer your price question, $1500 is a lot of money for a pet quality puppy of any breed. If you really want the dog let the breeder know what you are willing to pay and see if she is willing to sell at that price. But I would suggest you really think about how this dog is going to turn out and if you will be happy with a puppy knowing it could have the same "problems" as your current dog.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Purple Poodle - I don't consider Snoops to be a dog who has problems. 
Food allergies - they happen. Trouble digesting food? He's never had this issue.
The nylon collar - well, the vet tells me that nylon is fine in the beginning but breaks down after time. Just like plastic bottles, they can become toxic. They harbor bacteria which then rubs into the skin... thus creating skin irritation. It happens. 
Do I think it's because Snoops was a poorly bred dog? No, I really don't think so. Poodle expert or not, my gut tells me that these issues arose because he is a dog - not because of his breeding.


----------



## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

If you still want to go with this particular breeder, than just ask if she will give you a price reduction, based on the fact that your other puppy turned out much bigger than expected. Although I don't understand, you paid more for a smaller size, but she doesn't guarantee the size....scratching my head. 

I hope she will give you a discount, but wouldn't hold my breath. Where are you located, so maybe someone can recommend another breeder as an option.


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

As Poodle Lover says, if you decide to return to your breeder, then I would definitely ask for a substantial discount. 1) because you didn't get what you paid a premium for with Snoops. 2) because $1500 is a very high price for a pup from a breeder such as you've described. Just for a reference, the going rate I have been quoted is $1200 CDN for a black mini pup from 2 champion parents with full health testing behind them - I'm guessing toy pricing should be in line with that (and lower for non champion parents/ no health testing.)

If I were you I would also investigate alternate breeders/ pricing, as I would be surprised if a worthwhile discount is offered.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Cheers Poodle Lover & CdnJennga... 

I guess everything smaller is usually priced higher, right? Mini burgers, Mini Coopers, Mini-everything are $$$ than the larger version :lol:

CdnJennga - I've been following your thread for a search for a breeder. Your input is appreciated. Will you PM me and let me know who you have gone with? I know you are after a Mini rather than a Toy, but I'd still be interested to know who you have dealt with


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

cuddleparty said:


> She is breeding (tiny) toys, but explained that (tiny) toys at one point in time, were bred down from standards. Therefore, the standard gene may show up as a more dominant gene/trait from time to time, thus producing a larger size toy.


Given that they have been breeding Toy Poodles since at least the 19 century, I find it very, very difficult to believe that the "standard" gene would rear its ugly head. 

That is one of the sillier things I've heard a breeder say....


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I will be having two litters of reds next year- one out of this years Mom-Holly bred to Flynn ( as long as he passes all of testing) and one out of Betty-Jo, also bred to Flynn. All of these dogs can be seen on my web site. If you have questions about my breedinmg program or ethics, e-mail me anytime at [email protected]....


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

It doesn't really seem like you want help with this. You just want someone to tell you that you are doing the right thing. I for one am not going to be that person. I'm a novice but I know a lot about this subject and this doesn't sound like a breeder you should even be dealing with again. I don't think I'm alone in that opinion so if you want someone to pat you on the head and say go ahead and ask for a price reduction because you bought from her before then maybe someone will do that for you but I'm not.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Hey KPoo - I really didn't ask for you to condescend or patronize me on this matter. 

That's great that you are a novice and know alot on the subject. I'm a novice too, and I'm not afraid to ask questions and learn more about it. Part of the whole reason why I post here on PF. I may not agree with all of the advice and opinions that I get, but I entertain them still and most definitely take it all into consideration, and of course, always with a grain of salt. 
It's wonderful that your knowledge has helped you attain Jasper, whom you consider to be precious and top of the class. To each their own, right? I'm quite happy with my Snoops. I'm quite pleased with what the breeder has produced. So much so, that I am considering going back. My question to PF was about protocol when asking for a price reduction. 

I don't post on PF to be bullied or bombarded by self-righteous attitudes, or to have a simple post twisted into something else. 

There are many on here who may very well share your opinion, but before you band them altogether as part of your gang, perhaps you are better off speaking for yourself first.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Hmmm, I don't want to come off insulting at all and I'm glad my first post didn't offend you. However, put yourself in our shoes. This isn't the first time you posted about your breeder and then convinced yourself that everything was okay. I just don't understand why you would go back to her. You said yourself, she ripped you off. 

If I came to you and told you I was thinking about going back to the BYB I bought Harley from, what would you tell me? I would hope you'd be honest and try your best to convince me otherwise. Harley is a doll and I wouldn't trade him for the world, but that's not a reflection on his breeder. He's very out of standard and I almost lost him to parvo the second week I had him. (I'm not 100% certain that was the breeders fault, but they gave the vaccs themselves and I followed their schedule. He started showing symptoms, literally the night before his first vet appointment.) His parents had no health testing whatsoever and I'm truly blessed that I have a 5yr old who isn't crippled or worse.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Harley - I've never had an issue with my breeder, and I've never stated that I've had a problem with my breeder. Again, to re-iterate I am very happy with what she has produced - that is why I am looking at going back to her. There wasn't any convincing that I had to do on myself... 

My entire issue was about how to ask for a reduced price the 2nd time around. 
I have read posts on here in the past regarding pricing and I recall many breeders on here getting very defensive about their pricing. I can respect that - I wanted to know what would be the most diplomatic way to ask.

That's fine - that members have posted that my breeder is a money-making scam artist, etc... that opinion can be shared even tho the intent of the post was not to rip on the breeder. Still, the fact remains that I like her product. Now how do I ask for a discount?

Sure, I see it from the other side of the fence - now, can it be seen from my side?
This entire post somehow has become something entirely different... really sucks when the spirit of a post is broken...

PS: Glad your Harley worked out for you in the end


----------



## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

If she has a disclaimer stating she can't guarantee size, I don't think you have a case for asking for a discount. You were willing to pay more than $1500 for Snoops, what's holding you back from paying the $1500 for this new pup? Is it only because you didn't get what you paid for the first time? 
I wouldn't ask for a discount because a discount isn't warranted due to the disclaimer.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Harley_chik said:


> Hmmm, I don't want to come off insulting at all and I'm glad my first post didn't offend you. However, put yourself in our shoes. This isn't the first time you posted about your breeder and then convinced yourself that everything was okay. I just don't understand why you would go back to her. You said yourself, she ripped you off.
> 
> If I came to you and told you I was thinking about going back to the BYB I bought Harley from, what would you tell me? I would hope you'd be honest and try your best to convince me otherwise. Harley is a doll and I wouldn't trade him for the world, but that's not a reflection on his breeder. He's very out of standard and I almost lost him to parvo the second week I had him. (I'm not 100% certain that was the breeders fault, but they gave the vaccs themselves and I followed their schedule. He started showing symptoms, literally the night before his first vet appointment.) His parents had no health testing whatsoever and I'm truly blessed that I have a 5yr old who isn't crippled or worse.


IA I know this thread was not intended to comment on the breeder but , this is why we have an issue with BYB or no reputable breeders people keep buying from breeders like this.....

I mean you can ask for a discount but , If I where in your shoes I rather buy from another breeder. I have been scammed or cheated out of my money with many cat breeders. I bought a american bobtail from TN and paid $900 for this cat. He was going to be my new stud and the breeder seemed like she was honest. She claimed cat was so sweet and nice , she also claimed he was a big cat ( which is desirable in American bobtail studs). She also said he was a docked tail ( which this is what we where looking for )well when I got puma, he was so scarey almost ferral !( these bad temperments are passed down to kittens, I had kittens out of him that where so scarey and undesireable) I could not trim his nails. He was not even big ( my other two studs where way bigger). He was not a docked tail but a natural. I emailed the breeder several times about him not being a docked , but she gave me some more bs saying she is so good at docking cats and dogs tails blah blah .I paid $900 dollars for a bunch of BS she was telling me. I would never buy from her again no matter what cat she had for sell, it could be a GR quality cat and I will still never buy from her.

Puma was healthy and had a great coat pattern but never again. I sold him to another breeder for ($200 a few years ago) and just last week I got news that he passed away from a black widow bite


----------



## Teddy'smomma (Sep 21, 2009)

cuddleparty said:


> So attached is a photo of the most ADORABLE red male tiny toy poodle... from the same breeder whom I purchased Snoops. I'm seriously thinking about getting this little guy. I would love to have a red, and I'm sure Snoops would love a poodle buddy. They share a Dad, but different Mom.. they would be half brothers!
> 
> Here's the thing - I paid ALOT for Snoops. I was told his price was according to size. That he would be tiny (between 4-6lbs). Snoops now stands 10" (almost 11") tall and weighs over 8lbs (he is not overweight). He is quite big - much bigger than I had anticipated. I love him nonetheless. The breeder told me that sometimes the Standard Poodle gene is dominant and that may be why Snoops ended up so big. Ok.. makes sense.. I think!
> I feel I paid too much, given his current measurements. I should also add - I guess his price was also reflective of his Dad being a CKC Champion.
> ...




Teddy's breeder said that he was a toy when we went to pick him up, she lied. We had him assessed and he's definitely a miniature. Dad was CKC as well....and mom was...who knows. I think that you should definitely ask for a discount. I ended up with a discount on Ted too....but, it doesn't hurt to ask ya know?


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Locket - fair assessment

Roxy - Sorry to hear about your experience with Puma. Sounds like the breeder was selling you diamonds and you got cubic zirconia. If I had that experience I would not choose to go back to that breeder either. 

I asked for Snoops and I got Snoops - just a little bit more of him than I had expected and at a hefty price tag. I'm not looking for a refund.. just a break on the next one. 

I guess what I am figuring out here is ask and worst case scenario is that she says "no". There is no rule to asking - just do it.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Teddysmomma - wasn't Teddy a rescue? How did you get in touch with his breeder?


----------



## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Why not buy one of the $600 puppies? Why do you have to have the discount on this dog?

Does the breeder do any health testing prior to breeding?


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Purple Poodle said:


> Why not buy one of the $600 puppies? Why do you have to have the discount on this dog?
> 
> Does the breeder do any health testing prior to breeding?


Health testing of the pup is the responsibility of the owner, however the breeder does offer a 2 year health guarantee. Health testing is done on the parents. 

I'm partial to the $1500 dog because he is red - what I've been looking for. Also, I like the fact that he shares the same Dad as Snoops. 
I go alot on instinct and something about this guy tells me he may be the one to join our family! If there was a red in the $600 range I would definitely be open to the idea.... these pups seem to be blacks tho.


----------



## puppylove (Aug 9, 2009)

Does anybody still wonder why breeders price their merchandise by color?


----------



## thestars (May 2, 2009)

In retail it's called Supply and Demand. Low Supply / High Demand makes the price go up.

There are more Blacks and Whites out there so they are easier and cheaper to obtain. There are less of the other colors. The darker more rich the color the more people want them. It also may be the colors in which we are currently attracted to in our decorating taste, or clothing taste or our taste in hair color or the season of the year we enjoy the most. Picking a color is personal just like buying a new car, you get the color you want not settle for what is there. 

AKC & PCA have for decades promoted blacks and whites over dogs of color. Finally they are seeing the reality that they are here to stay and if they don't start recognizing that then they will lose money. After all these years even Poodle Variety has seen a change and has started dedicating issues to Poodles of color. The editor even took the risk of putting a Red Standard "Field" Dog on the cover, not a Show dog! Their are plenty Apricots out there that could have fit the bill as a beautiful show dog. I think they realize that they have to start "including" rather then "excluding".

As for the little red guy, $1500 is very high this year. Maybe back in 2006 or 2007 but the average price for red toys has come down. For Champion bred (Dam & Sire) maybe but I know other red toy breeders have just as nice, health tested parents, at least Champion sired litters more in line between $800 - $1000.

Allergies is a health issue, maybe not as severe as eyes, heart, knees and hips but it is still an issue. I would personally "shop around" for the right price, and learn more about the parents of the puppies because what she is asking is to high. If you want a nice red there are MANY MORE Red toy breeders out there!!!


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

thestars said:


> AKC & PCA have for decades promoted blacks and whites over dogs of color.


How exactly did they promote white and blacks? This is more an issue of quality than anything else. All too often, dogs of color just aren't as nice as blacks and whites. This is because color breeders let color be the deciding factor in whether or not to breed a dog where Black and White breeders look at movement, structure, head-piece, coat and temperament.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I have to agree w/ that. I will more than likely be getting a black or white b/c it's easier to find reputable breeders of those colors. I'm not saying there are any nice red/silver/blue/brown/etc dogs out there, but they aren't as common. The not so great quality dog on the other hand don't seem to rare to me. IMO, that has more to do w/ individual breeder than AKC and PCA. How many breeder's use the "it's too political" or "the grooming too tough" excuse to just drop out of showing all together. Those breeders certainly aren't helping their cause any. 

Because of the color changes, I think it would be absolutely ridiculous to pay more for a certain color unless there were some sort of money back guarantee. (You listening Cuddleparty?)


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> How exactly did they promote white and blacks? This is more an issue of quality than anything else. All too often, dogs of color just aren't as nice as blacks and whites. This is because color breeders let color be the deciding factor in whether or not to breed a dog where Black and White breeders look at movement, structure, head-piece, coat and temperament.


IA 100% 

As we have been going to shows I have seen a lot of colored dogs ( which I am pretty happy and shocked because of how people say colored dogs are hard to show etc..) there has only been a few dogs I have seen that were good enough to finish IMO (that where colored). At the sd specialty there were a few red dogs there that were not even show quality IMO. These same breeders are probably the ones that bitch and moan and complain about politics or are the same breeders who quit showing. If You breed dogs to standard then you should not have a problem. 

There are a lot of kennel blind breeders , you need to look at things out side the box. Because it all comes down to the quality of the dogs and not color.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Harley_chik said:


> I have to agree w/ that. I will more than likely be getting a black or white b/c it's easier to find reputable breeders of those colors. I'm not saying there are any nice red/silver/blue/brown/etc dogs out there, but they aren't as common. The not so great quality dog on the other hand don't seem to rare to me. IMO, that has more to do w/ individual breeder than AKC and PCA. How many breeder's use the "it's too political" or "the grooming too tough" excuse to just drop out of showing all together. Those breeders certainly aren't helping their cause any.
> Because of the color changes, I think it would be absolutely ridiculous to pay more for a certain color unless there were some sort of money back guarantee. (You listening Cuddleparty?)


IA 100% like I said just talking to some breeders you can see who is kennel blind and who is not in the show world.


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I have to agree w/ that. I will more than likely be getting a black or white b/c it's easier to find reputable breeders of those colors. I'm not saying there are any nice red/silver/blue/brown/etc dogs out there, but they aren't as common.


Same. I started out open to all colours, but as I researched more and more, it became evident that there more black mini poodle breeders that met my criteria. Plus of course I love the look of the black. 

Having said that, there is some quality breeding going on in the poodles of colour as well. And we have great examples of some beautiful poodles of all colours on this board - it's great!


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> Because of the color changes, I think it would be absolutely ridiculous to pay more for a certain color unless there were some sort of money back guarantee. (You listening Cuddleparty?)


I wouldn't pay for a dog who was priced strictly based on color. I appreciate your concern, but really... I'm not that daft..


----------



## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

cuddleparty said:


> I wouldn't pay for a dog who was priced strictly based on color. I appreciate your concern, but really... I'm not that daft..


Not saying you're daft but...



cuddleparty said:


> So, the breeder has now priced all her pups waaaaaaaay down - between $600 - $1200. I inquired about reds, and she posted pics of the newborns. They are priced at $1500. They cost WAY more than the other pups she has.


Why do the red pups cost WAY more than the other pups if not only due to colour?


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Locket said:


> Not saying you're daft but...
> 
> 
> 
> Why do the red pups cost WAY more than the other pups if not only due to colour?


Right... which brings me back to my original question - what's the best way to ask a breeder for a price reduction? 

I'm not the breeder, and I don't know her reasons for pricing.. I'm not going to make assumptions, put words in her mouth and therefore, I cannot answer on her behalf. If I had to guess tho? She would possibly say a factor for pricing is also because of who Dad is...


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I have to agree w/ that. I will more than likely be getting a black or white b/c it's easier to find reputable breeders of those colors. I'm not saying there are any nice red/silver/blue/brown/etc dogs out there, but they aren't as common. The not so great quality dog on the other hand don't seem to rare to me. IMO, that has more to do w/ individual breeder than AKC and PCA. How many breeder's use the "it's too political" or "the grooming too tough" excuse to just drop out of showing all together. Those breeders certainly aren't helping their cause any.
> 
> Because of the color changes, I think it would be absolutely ridiculous to pay more for a certain color unless there were some sort of money back guarantee. (You listening Cuddleparty?)


No I don't think she is.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I don't think your daft at all! It's hard to use your head when an adorable puppy is pulling at your heartstings. (I'm guilty of that myself!)

You should flat out tell her you are interested in that pup, but unwilling to pay extra just for color. You should also tell her that you paid extra for a "tiny toy" poodle and that Snoops is great, but not a "tiny toy." Ask her if she's willing to come down on the price considering Snoops is larger than promised and that you are a repeat customer. JMO.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Cheers again Harley.. I think after much unnecessary banter we have reached a conclusion that I should just flat out ask. 

KPoos - your snide remarks are out of order. what in life made you so miserable? Take your narcissism to another thread if the only thing you are going to do is incite more bulls.h.i.t... we're both in TX - I'm really curious if you would ever say half this s.h.i.t to my face..


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cuddleparty said:


> Cheers again Harley.. I think after much unnecessary banter we have reached a conclusion that I should just flat out ask.
> 
> KPoos - your snide remarks are out of order. what in life made you so miserable? Take your narcissism to another thread if the only thing you are going to do is incite more bulls.h.i.t... we're both in TX - I'm really curious if you would ever say half this s.h.i.t to my face..


Sure why not? You aren't listening. People in this thread are giving you very sound advice so why not take it instead of coming up with more excuses as to why you want the puppy? Just ask the woman if she'll take less money for the puppy. I don't even understand what the big deal is. What's the worst that can happen? She says no and you look for another breeder, which in my opinion (you obviously could care less anyway) you should do anyway.


----------



## aestheticlie (Jun 28, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Sure why not? You aren't listening. People in this thread are giving you very sound advice so why not take it instead of coming up with more excuses as to why you want the puppy? Just ask the woman if she'll take less money for the puppy. I don't even understand what the big deal is. What's the worst that can happen? She says no and you look for another breeder, which in my opinion (you obviously could care less anyway) you should do anyway.


I'd just like to say that I originally joined this forum in hopes of gaining knowledge on this breed because I hope to be getting a puppy soon. While I have learned a LOT, more than I could have imagined and still more to learn, I've also come to realize that most members here are really active with this breed, whether being breeders, pro groomers, or whatever. But you guys don't seem to understand that some people just want a pet, and that some people, like me, feel that buying from a BYB is like saving a life. I know you guys don't like them because they don't really care for the breed or the animals in general, but just think of it from the puppies view. What happens to them if no one wants to take them home? You don't know. You could be saving his/her life. So bashing on a breeder because she could POSSIBLY be a BYB, just because a person asked a simple question that had nothing to do with the breeders practices in breeding, is very very rude. There is really no call for a lot of comments made to cuddleparty. And I my intent was not to incite any rude comments made towards me either, but just to make some of think about what you're saying. She didn't ask your opinion of the breeder, she already knew that from what most have said in other threads. She only asked about how to go about asking for a discount from the breeder, which she got an answer for, somewhere amongst this entire mess. There really isn't a need for anything else to be said here.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Cheers Aestheticlie... for "getting" it.
Good luck with your new pup, whomever you end up choosing!


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

aestheticlie said:


> But you guys don't seem to understand that some people just want a pet, and that some people, like me, feel that buying from a BYB is like saving a life. I know you guys don't like them because they don't really care for the breed or the animals in general, but just think of it from the puppies view. What happens to them if no one wants to take them home? You don't know. You could be saving his/her life.



When one buys from a BYB one is absolutely NOT saving a life. One is creating a market for the breeding of low quality poodles who are often untested and of questionable temperament.

I just went through this last weekend with a couple I met on the trail. They had a Goldendoodle bitch and they stopped to comment on my poodles. They talked about their bitch and mentioned that they were having issues with her temperament. They asked questions about her coat change. Typical newbie owner stuff. Then they dropped the bomb.... they said that they were going to breed this girl!!!! :doh:

They know NOTHING about poodles but they were going to breed a litter of puppies who are 75% poodle. They can not possibly mentor their puppy owners in any way and I can't imagine what these folks would know about correctly raising a litter.

I told them straight out that their bitch was not breeding quality even for Goldendoodle. I pointed out that she was noticeably high in the rear, she moved poorly, she had an abnormally short tail for the mix (I worry about spine issues) and she had a very shy temperament.

Their comment.... "Oh, we are just breeding for pets." 

I told them that even a pet owner deserves a dog who is structurally sound and who has good temperament. I told them that a pet owner deserves to have a breeder who knows enough to help mentor them in owning the breed. They were not happy with me, but someone had to say it. 

People buy from BYBs because they are uneducated or because they want to save a buck. If no one bought from BYBs or high volume breeders, then these fols would eventually go away because breeding would not be profitable. 

BTW... what happens to the BYB puppies that aren't sold? They are picked up by Poodle Rescue (saints that they are) properly socialized, spayed/neutered, and then placed with appropriate owners.


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

aestheticlie said:


> While I have learned a LOT, more than I could have imagined and still more to learn, I've also come to realize that most members here are really active with this breed, whether being breeders, pro groomers, or whatever. But you guys don't seem to understand that some people just want a pet, and that some people, like me, feel that buying from a BYB is like saving a life. I know you guys don't like them because they don't really care for the breed or the animals in general, but just think of it from the puppies view. What happens to them if no one wants to take them home?


I agree with your overall point. At the end of the day, it's up to the individual to decide what their comfortable with. All we can do on this forum is try to share our knowledge and see if that causes people to rethink their buying practices. I'm not a breeder, groomer, handler whatever. I'm just someone who wants to buy the best puppy they can from the best breeder they can.

I'm not trying to be mean or harsh, because you have to do whatever you have to do. But IMO the problem with your feeling is, you're not saving a life. All you're doing is encouraging the breeder to breed another litter in the future, because they had no problem getting rid of the pups from the first one. You are also supporting the desecration of the breed by supporting breeders who breed terrible dogs who look and act nothing like a poodle should. Your thinking is the exact reason there's still puppy mill puppies sold in pet stores - because people think they're helping out the pup, when really all they are doing is causing more pups to be bred from horrible circumstances.

Any negativity you see on this board is usually from frustration. It can be frustrating to have people ask opinions, then have a bunch of people point out the red flags only to see the person buy the pup anyway. Any negativity just comes from a love of the breed and the want to make it the best, healthiest breed it can be.

If you really want to save a life, I suggest adopting from your local shelter or rescue. Now there are dogs who really need homes.


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

cbrand said:


> BTW... what happens to the BYB puppies that aren't sold? They are picked up by Poodle Rescue (saints that they are) properly socialized, spayed/neutered, and then placed with appropriate owners.


Exactly... I have even seen many pups from BYBs end up at my local shelter. If they can't get rid of them, they take them there where they usually get snapped up. If I were you, I'd be more concerned about the poor parent dogs that are left behind. What are their lives like?


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> I agree with your overall point. At the end of the day, it's up to the individual to decide what their comfortable with. All we can do on this forum is try to share our knowledge and see if that causes people to rethink their buying practices. I'm not a breeder, groomer, handler whatever. I'm just someone who wants to buy the best puppy they can from the best breeder they can.
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean or harsh, because you have to do whatever you have to do. But IMO the problem with your feeling is, you're not saving a life. All you're doing is encouraging the breeder to breed another litter in the future, because they had no problem getting rid of the pups from the first one. You are also supporting the desecration of the breed by supporting breeders who breed terrible dogs who look and act nothing like a poodle should. Your thinking is the exact reason there's still puppy mill puppies sold in pet stores - because people think they're helping out the pup, when really all they are doing is causing more pups to be bred from horrible circumstances.
> 
> ...


Yes this, thank you for pointing it out. I've been guilty of this myself at times, not listening to advice given to me, and then later regretted my decision and wished I had listened. When you ask a group of people their advice and they offer it based on their own knowledge and you continue to ask the same question over and over to try to illicate the response you want, it tends to become frustrating.


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

cbrand said:


> People buy from BYBs because they are uneducated or because they want to save a buck. If no one bought from BYBs or high volume breeders, then these fols would eventually go away because breeding would not be profitable.


You're right on the reasons... However, buying from a BYB may save a buck in the short term, but can cost you in the long term. A friend of mine recently bought a bully breed pup from a friend who had a litter. The dog is lovely in temperament, if ugly, but has the WORST allergies I have ever seen. The amount of money they have spent in his first year of life is ridiculous. I'm sure they're wishing they'd investigated a little more and invested a little more money up front.


----------



## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

aestheticlie said:


> But you guys don't seem to understand that some people just want a pet, and that some people, like me, feel that buying from a BYB is like saving a life. I know you guys don't like them because they don't really care for the breed or the animals in general, but just think of it from the puppies view. What happens to them if no one wants to take them home? You don't know. You could be saving his/her life


This is exactly why the puppy mills and BYB continue to thrive.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

aestheticlie: 

So you telling me you would rather buy a Daewoo for $50k than a BMW for 50k ? Because basically this is what it comes down to. Why spend all this money from a company that is not making QUALITY cars..... ( the parts on these cars are not universal my friend has lots of experience with one lol) 

Why spend $1500 on a breeder who is not even knowledgeable, does not put titles on her dogs,or health test ? ( Just saying in general for byb ). when you can get a pup from a breeder that is health testing, parents have titles to prove they are breeding quality, breeder will be with you for life for $1500 


If you want to save a life go to a shelter with the prices of what BYB are charging you could have save 15 dogs ........ ( in CA anyways) 

I still do not understand people some times.........hwell:


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> BTW... what happens to the BYB puppies that aren't sold? They are picked up by Poodle Rescue (saints that they are) properly socialized, spayed/neutered, and then placed with appropriate owners.


Yes this is true or they are dumped in the shelter. Last time I went they had apricot poodle mixed puppies. they look purebred and were so cute. You already know some fool was breeding them and could not afford to take care of them.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Ya'll talk about giving opinions and getting frustrated when others don't listen. Well, Aestheticlie is giving her opinion and she is fully entitled. What's with all the arrogant and self-righteous attitudes on here? Unless someone perpetuates ya'lls thoughts on something you gang up and act like a bunch of a.s.sholes. This isn't a popularity contest, or let's see who knows more about what... it's a FORUM. 

Many people read what they want on here, and also add words and thoughts to the original post and post-er. Comprehension is seriously lacking at times. 

Each one of us has a different thought and criteria process. We aren't robots. We are individuals... tho I sometimes question that about many. Don't chastise someone because they don't think like you. And don't praise yourself when someone else agrees with you. 

As for myself - I've mentioned several times that I take everyone's thoughts into consideration. I AM willing to see the other side of the coin. I AM willing to think outside of the tiny little box. Many of ya'll have raised some great points - perhaps having nothing to do with my original query. But, points that have been suggested and considered. However, when I weigh it all, I am still very comfortable with the decision I have made. I'm the one who has to contend with it... not you.. it doesn't affect you or your life at the end of the day. 

So stop the bullying and bullsh.i.t. and let's get on with it... 
Start your own thread about this, but don't continue to taint mine... 

I think this topic has been beat to death, and I'm leaving the school yard and headed back indoors. Carry on with the school yard antics as ya'll seem fit. Hopefully it's a done deal tho..


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

cuddleparty said:


> Ya'll talk about giving opinions and getting frustrated when others don't listen. Well, Aestheticlie is giving her opinion and she is fully entitled. What's with all the arrogant and self-righteous attitudes on here?
> 
> Aestheticle is entitled to his/ her opinion. However, if I feel that opinion is based on a commonly held misconception, then I feel entitled to point it out. If s/he continues to hold that opinion when in possession of more information then that's his/ her prerogative. I hope someone would point out to me where they feel I'm mistaken or misinformed as well, that's why I participate here!
> 
> However, when I weigh it all, I am still very comfortable with the decision I have made. I'm the one who has to contend with it... not you.. it doesn't affect you or your life at the end of the day.


This is very true.  I hope whatever you have decided to do works out for you.


----------



## aestheticlie (Jun 28, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> This is very true.  I hope whatever you have decided to do works out for you.


Yes, I do understand what all of you have repeated, when it was really not needed to hear the same thing from 3 or 4 different people, about my opinion "fueling the BYB to continue". I do know that, but my opinion still stands, and it's just that. An opinion. You do not need to chastise me for it just because you think it is wrong. It really doesn't matter if you got the entire world to stop buying from BYB's, they will not stop. Of course that's just "My opinion". You guys seem to not acknowledge the fact that people do what they want no matter what. So even if they know they have the slimest of prospects to sell the puppies, they will still do it hoping to make a buck.

And no, roxy, I never said ANYTHING like that. I simply said think about it from another point of view. Some people would be happy buying imitation, and do everyday. If cuddleparty is happy with her decision to spend money on puppy that COULD POSSIBLY have some sort of health problems, then let her do it. It's HER LIFE. So please, you gave your opinions, quite loudly, and they were heard. She has already thought about them and made her decision, nothing else is needed here.

And I'd like to point out that not all of those puppies end up in a shelter ready for adoption. I have seen many of puppies dead from one reason or another simply because they could not sell. I know a couple that breeds and sells Poms as a BYB, and if they don't sell the puppies by a certain age, they're left outside to fend for themselves. They live in the middle of nowhere, where any wild animal can get to them. So don't pretend you know everything, please.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

aestheticlie said:


> Yes, I do understand what all of you have repeated, when it was really not needed to hear the same thing from 3 or 4 different people, about my opinion "fueling the BYB to continue". I do know that, but my opinion still stands, and it's just that. An opinion. You do not need to chastise me for it just because you think it is wrong. It really doesn't matter if you got the entire world to stop buying from BYB's, they will not stop. Of course that's just "My opinion". You guys seem to not acknowledge the fact that people do what they want no matter what. So even if they know they have the slimest of prospects to sell the puppies, they will still do it hoping to make a buck.
> 
> And no, roxy, I never said ANYTHING like that. I simply said think about it from another point of view. Some people would be happy buying imitation, and do everyday. If cuddleparty is happy with her decision to spend money on puppy that COULD POSSIBLY have some sort of health problems, then let her do it. It's HER LIFE. So please, you gave your opinions, quite loudly, and they were heard. She has already thought about them and made her decision, nothing else is needed here.
> 
> And I'd like to point out that not all of those puppies end up in a shelter ready for adoption. I have seen many of puppies dead from one reason or another simply because they could not sell. I know a couple that breeds and sells Poms as a BYB, and if they don't sell the puppies by a certain age, they're left outside to fend for themselves. They live in the middle of nowhere, where any wild animal can get to them. So don't pretend you know everything, please.


I agree with you that people will do what they want.

what people do with there dogs depends on location here in LA we have no wild animals running around to just come put these dogs out of there misery so people dump them in shelters .....


----------



## aestheticlie (Jun 28, 2009)

They don't put them outside to be put out of their missery, they put them out there because it makes it easier to ignore them. The ones they think they might breed again they put in a little 6 foot tall play pen thing, the others they don't really care about. If they happen to be able to sell one they will, but like I said. They don't really care once it reaches 6 months of age.

We were lucky to get an adorable little boy from them last April, and he's now a year old. He lacks any and all manners because they had simply put him outside. And before you comment on it, no we were not looking at buying a puppy, even from a pro breeder. He simply fell into our laps.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Do you not understand that if someone gives money to a breeder like that, knowing what they are, they are complicent in the abuse? You are not saving a life; adopting a dog saves a life. It provides a home for the adopted dog and opens a kennel/foster home for another. I get irritated when someone says they "adopted" a dog from a breeder (no matter what caliber breeder they are). To say you rescued or saved a life by buying from a BYB or mill is insulting to anyone involved in rescue. You may have provided a better life for one dog, but you are condemning dozens, if not hundreds to the life you describe for those Pomeranian puppies. (You need to call AC or ASPCA on that witch.) Besides most dogs purchased from BYBs don't live the good life. This way of thinking is exactly why puppymills and BYBs thrive; it's the whole problem!


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

aestheticlie said:


> It really doesn't matter if you got the entire world to stop buying from BYB's, they will not stop. Of course that's just "My opinion". You guys seem to not acknowledge the fact that people do what they want no matter what. So even if they know they have the slimest of prospects to sell the puppies, they will still do it hoping to make a buck.


I wanted to respect Cuddleparty's request and not comment on this thread any more, but I can't let this go! Wow, that's really a depressing thing to say... Who knows, maybe you're right? Although basic economics says you're not - supply is fueled by demand. If demand dries up, eventually the supply does too. Sure, there might be the occasional hoarders or crazies breeding with noone to sell to. But at least the sheer volume would drop.

Even if you're right, I don't see why we should stop trying to educate people. If only one person reads this thread and decides to rescue/ adopt/ buy from a reputable breeder rather than a BYB or puppy mill then I would consider it a success.


----------



## aestheticlie (Jun 28, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> I wanted to respect Cuddleparty's request and not comment on this thread any more, but I can't let this go! Wow, that's really a depressing thing to say... Who knows, maybe you're right? Although basic economics says you're not - supply is fueled by demand. If demand dries up, eventually the supply does too. Sure, there might be the occasional hoarders or crazies breeding with noone to sell to. But at least the sheer volume would drop.
> 
> Even if you're right, I don't see why we should stop trying to educate people. If only one person reads this thread and decides to rescue/ adopt/ buy from a reputable breeder rather than a BYB or puppy mill then I would consider it a success.


I never said stop educating people. My point was to leave cuddleparty alone about her decision to buy from this breeder and to not bash people who want to buy from BYBs. Yes, the sure supply would drop, but it will never go away. It doesn't matter how much demand there is.

Harley, yes I understand what you guys are saying. I never said I didn't. But I'm tired of trying to make you understand what I'm saying. I'll just remember the next time I need advice about poodles, to make sure I'm prepared for a bunch of nonsense talk that had nothing to do with my original question (the same thing that has happened to cuddleparty's thread).


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I find your post more and more insulting. 

First: How many of Cuddleparty's other post have you read? This is not the first time Snoops' breeder has been mentioned here. You don't know the whole history. I feel a certain amount of friendship toward many people on this forum and my post were motivated not only by disdain for what I consider to be a not so great breeder, but out of concern for one of my "friends." I truly don't want her to get taken by this breeder. Even though I disagree with going back to this breeder, I would never hold that against Cuddleparty, Snoops or her possible new puppy.

Second: I find you characterization of this post as "nonsense" incredibly offensive. Truthful information about BYBs, puppymills and shady breeders is not "nonsense."


----------



## aestheticlie (Jun 28, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I find your post more and more insulting.
> 
> First: How many of Cuddleparty's other post have you read? This is not the first time Snoops' breeder has been mentioned here. You don't know the whole history. I feel a certain amount of friendship toward many people on this forum and my post were motivated not only by disdain for what I consider to be a not so great breeder, but out of concern for one of my "friends." I truly don't want her to get taken by this breeder. Even though I disagree with going back to this breeder, I would never hold that against Cuddleparty, Snoops or her possible new puppy.
> 
> Second: I find you characterization of this post as "nonsense" incredibly offensive. Truthful information about BYBs, puppymills and shady breeders is not "nonsense."


As I'm sure none of you did, I meant no insult towards anyone. I have read almost every thread on this board in hopes to learn all that I can about the breed, so I know that this breeder has been mentioned before, and I have said that before. I understand you feel friendship towards many of these people, how could you not sharing one of the post important parts of your lives together? I'm simply trying to help cudlleparty's point across, she asked a question for a discount, not your opinion of the breeder. She knows how you feel about the breeder and has decided to try her again. I never said you would hold it against her.

Forgive me, maybe that was the wrong word to use. I did not mean to imply that your talk on BYBs and puppmills were nonsense, I simply meant nonsense in the sense that most of what was said in this thread had nothing to do with her original question. I understand you want to educate people about these things, and I'm all for it. I simply have a different opinion that most of you have.

My intent was not to make any of you hate me for my opinions, but simply to help cuddleparty. It seems to me that once most of these members get on a topic that they feel very strongly about, they have on blinders, keeping them from listening to someone else. I don't mean to offend anyone, I respect the knowledge that most of you have on poodles, and I seek to learn it myself. But as I said, my part in this thread was to help everyone see what cuddleparty was trying to say.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

The English language can be very funny and can be interpreted so many different ways... *sigh*

OK.. soo.. moving on... here's a thread for ya'll to discuss:

http://www.poodleforum.com/showthread.php?p=34458#post34458


----------



## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

Well, I have held off on replying to this thread but feel I would like to.

cuddleparty, If you really like the pup, am willing to pay the extra price and feel comfortable with the purchase, then you have every right to do so. Should you ask for a reduction because of the first one you purchased? Again, that is up to you and how comfortable you feel about doing so, the most the breeder can say is "no".

Now, to get to the rest of the issues. 

Cuddleparty, you have to understand that when you asked this question, you placed some "red flags" up that anyone who is conscientious about the breed would catch and mention to you. 

One.... "the breeder said that sometimes the standard poodle gene is dominant" giving the reason Snoops didn't stay tiny, that right away says the breeder does not know what she is saying or that she is misinformed or that she is outright making excuses. It is very hard if not impossible to 100% guarantee mature size of any of the poodles, being it toy, mini or standard. You can breed two large standards (26" - 28") and have some pups come out being only 20 -22", you can breed two in-height minis and have one grow over mini size or stay under. You can breed for tiny toys and may get one or two or none, just normal size toys. It is not a "standard poodle gene" dominancy, it is just a "gene" issue. It depends on which genes the parents pass down to that particular puppy, period. IF a breeder sells a puppy for more because they say it is going to be X (in this case a tiny toy), then they should stand behind that with a guarantee, otherwise why get more money?
You love your dog, which is great, and would like another like him, that is fine, but there is some red flags that make people feel they should mention them.

Two... You said you weren't trying to say you felt ripped off but come back with saying you do basically feel you got ripped off. If I felt like I got ripped off by the breeder, I wouldn't go back to that one and I would expect people to give me a "heads up" on it if I mentioned it.

Three... Allergies are a hereditary health problem. No, it is not hip displasia or seizures, but it is still a health problem. If your Snoops has them, then there are probably others they produced that do. There is a definite chance the new one you get from them could. Just something anyone needs to know when making their decision.

Four... Color. I can understand supply and demand. If producing a particular color is not easy and you only get a small amount and you get lots of people that want them, then I can see asking more. BUT, it is soooo hard to guarantee finished color on a poodle, just as it is in the size. I don't think I know any other breed that is so variable. In the Dobie's, when breeding a 26" female to a 28" male, you get close to 26" females and 28" males (as long as there are no huge, oversized dogs behind the parents) and black & rust is, well, black & rust, period. Not so with poodles. Your red puppy could well clear out to an apricot color as an adult, then you just paid a lot more for an apricot. An apricot pup could darken and become more of a red color. So, again, if you are willing to pay the extra and be ok if the pup ends up an apricot as an adult, then that is definitely your decision, but again, it is something to keep in mind. If the breeder didn't guarantee the size of Snoops after asking more for him, then will she guarantee the color of the pup to stay red after paying more for him?

So, these are the things I see in this. Yes, it is entirely up to you to weigh all that has been said, all that you know, and make your own decision. You are the one who needs to feel comfortable with your decision. But I also think that people are not remiss in giving their opinion or thoughts on what could be helpful info.

NOW, the part that really gets me..... buying a pup from a backyard breeder to "save" said pup! I wish anyone who thinks this would just take a walk through tour of the lives that the parents of said pups have to live... if you even want to call that a life. It is more like a life of horror! I am guilty of buying a puppy from a pet shop once and will never do it again, nor do I even go and look at pups in a pet shop. I, too, have the "I feel sorry for them" feeling when I see them and it breaks my heart. Every time a pup is purchased from a pet shop or directly from the BYB, it only allows that person to breed the poor bitch again to have more pups to send out to the pet shops or sell to the unwitting purchaser. YES, everyone has a right to their thoughts and a right to go a buy from said BYB if they want. That is what makes the USA so great, we are able to decide for ourselves how we feel about things. But, no matte how much anyone wants to tell themselves they did a good thing by saving the "poor" puppy, they are condemning the parents to a horrible, ill life. If you can live with that thought, then no one can/will change your mind. If you can't, you will avoid purchasing from anyone who does not care for the parent dogs lives.

I am not attempting to say that the breeder of Snoops is a BYB, I don't know her, how she cares for her dogs or anything else. I am just replying to things that were said and till you see what the poor parent dogs are put through, you could not understand how horrible the true BYB is!

But, I would be leery of being charged more for something I didn't get, and not being offered a refund when the issue was brought to her attention. I would be leery if I was paying more for a specific color without getting a money refund guarantee if said pup does not stay red. This is just how I would feel about getting this puppy. Also, I would be leery of paying that much without the parents being tested. If the parents are not tested, the price should reflect that issue, in my opinion.

As you said, it is your decision. You are the one who needs to weigh all issues and decide on what makes you comfortable. I wish you the best with whatever decision you make, although, I would like to hope that you would look around at some other breeders first just to compare and be sure you are happy with your decision.


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Jester's Mom - duly noted and all very well said. 
I acknowledge everything that you said.. cheers!


----------



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Let's put this thread to rest... 

Come to this thread to discuss:
http://www.poodleforum.com/showthread.php?t=2971


----------



## kathy09 (Jan 14, 2009)

I never thought about the poor female dog having to produce these puppies I am glad that I have learned a lot from this thread since I am looking to add another poodle to my family when I find the one I want. I just hope I know the difference in a good or bad breeder that the hard part of looking for a new family member. Good luck cuddleparty with your new puppy when you get one.


----------

