# testing and pedigree of my potential Spoo



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

That's some homework you've been doing! 

You've seen the heartache written by members, and breeders, who do all they can to give a pup their very best chance and still be let down. 
All the testing can be no more than improving odds, partly because there's so much not known.

I expect that you've seen this around PF or on the OFA site but with the additional info you've researched, it may now have a better place for the answers you're looking for to land in .

Most of the testing for standard poodles is "phenotype" testing, meaning observable characteristics or traits. Although many health conditions likely have genetic origins, not all of these genetic origins have been found, therefore there can't yet be DNA testing for them.

If the genetic origin is eventually determined, and a test eventually developed, the phenotype test is likely to be replaced or backed up by the genotype/DNA testing.

With the exception of the eye exam for the standard, which is intended to be a yearly eye exam, not very different from a human eye exam, these phenotype exams aren't required to be repeated.
Because they are only capturing the poodles state of health at the time of testing, it's recommended somewhere in the OFA site to repeat them periodically, but not required.

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From the OFA site POODLE (ofa.org)

Standard Poodle

*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Health Elective* (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚
The PCA Foundation recommends all three electives for Standard Poodles and also strongly recommends the following DNA tests from an OFA listed lab to easily avoid breeding two mutation carriers to each other and producing affected puppies: DNA Test for Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures (NEwS) and DNA Test for vonWillebrand’s Disease (vWD)

The breed specific list below represents the basic health screening recommendations. It is not all encompassing. There may be other health screening tests appropriate for this breed. And, there may be other health concerns for which there is no commonly accepted screening protocol available.

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This link will take you to the Diseases page on OFA. Use the menu on the left to see more.

Diseases in Dogs | OFA

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A genetic/DNA test is considered a lifetime result for that dog. Genetic testing does not replace the phenotype testing but is additional to it.

OFA accepts certain results from a number of labs, with PawPrint being one. These independent labs also offer various breed-specific panels which might include some of the PCA/OFA recommended testing.

Laboratories - OFA

and


PoodleTestLaboratoriesChondrodysplasia (CDPA)Embark, GenSol, UC Davis - VGLMacrothrombocytopeniaEmbark, VetGenNeonatal EncephalopathyGenSol, Helica, Orivet, VetGen, VetNosticNeonatal Encephalopathy w/SeizuresAnimal Genetics, Embark, Laboklin, Neogen / Paw Print Genetics, OFA/University of Missouri, Orivet, UC Davis - VGL, Wisdom HealthOsteochondrodysplasiaNeogen / Paw Print Genetics, ProjectDOG, UC Davis - VGL, VetGen, Wisdom HealthProgressive Retinal Atrophy (prcd PRA)Embark, GenSol, Helica, Neogen / Paw Print Genetics, Wisdom HealthProgressive Retinal Atrophy (rcd4)GenSol, Laboklin, Neogen / Paw Print Genetics, OFA/University of Missouri, Orivet, Wisdom HealthVon Willebrands Type IGenSol, Helica, Laboklin, Neogen / Paw Print Genetics, Orivet, UC Davis - VGL, VetGen, VetNostic



Poodle (Miniature and Toy)TestLaboratoriesChondrodystrophy and Intervertebral Disc Disease (CDDY-IVDD)Embark, GenSol, UC Davis - VGL


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This I also learned from reading thru a lot of PF history, when there were a larger number of breeders actively participating.

You're likely to find, even of the frequently recommended breeders, top breeders, that not all do the recommended testing per the PCA/OFA _exactly as recommended._

Example: The conditions looked for in the recommended annual CERF eye exam are thought to be genetic but testing is still done by physical exam, just as with human vision, because a genetic origin hasn't been discovered yet.
Eye Certification | OFA

Phenotype testing has been done for decades but genetic testing has only been possible since after the dog genome was sequenced, 2005 I think, and then conditions identified, and then testing developed. There are a number of well-known breeders still active who started long before the current level of testing had been developed and recommended.

Before there was this level of testing available, breeders depended on their eyes, the history of their dogs and those of the other breeders, the databases on paper and online to search health history that was available.

Some breeders may still rely on that knowledge but test when they feel something should be tested. They may or may not publish results.

Ideally, they all would do the testing as recommended, phenotype and genetic, but when they feel they know their lines and those that they share genes with, some may skip this or that, here or there.

This comes to your comfort level, the level of risk you're comfortable assuming, how you feel otherwise about the breeder, will they stand by you and the pup, what does their contract cover and for how long, and so on.


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## PoodlesinMass (10 mo ago)

I looked at OFA for both the sire and the dam. The sire does not has testing posted to get a chic number. I personally would look for all three elective and want an Echo so an advanced Cardiac evaluation with echo as the echo shows leaks at a young age that can develop into heart issues later in life. The sire has hip and thyroid but no SA, Cardiac or eyes posted. The dam has Hip, Eyes, thyroid, and basic cardiac not advanced cardiac recommended by PCA (Heart Evaluation by an ACVIM boarded veterinary cardiologist.). She does have enough testing to get a Chic number. As a buyer, you need to determine the minimum testing you want to see in the parents and that is a personal choice. VGL has not been proven just in the research phase with a strong hunch and using that over health clearances would concern me as a buyer and the sire's testing in not complete.


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## mrtobympoo (4 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> That's some homework you've been doing!
> 
> You've seen the heartache written by members, and breeders, who do all they can to give a pup their very best chance and still be let down.
> All the testing can be no more than improving odds, partly because there's so much not known.
> ...


oh my, rose n poos, thank you for this extensive and detailed information! You're right, even with all my research, not everything can be tested and foreseen


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## mrtobympoo (4 mo ago)

PoodlesinMass said:


> I looked at OFA for both the sire and the dam. The sire does not has testing posted to get a chic number. I personally would look for all three elective and want an Echo so an advanced Cardiac evaluation with echo as the echo shows leaks at a young age that can develop into heart issues later in life. The sire has hip and thyroid but no SA, Cardiac or eyes posted. The dam has Hip, Eyes, thyroid, and basic cardiac not advanced cardiac recommended by PCA (Heart Evaluation by an ACVIM boarded veterinary cardiologist.). She does have enough testing to get a Chic number. As a buyer, you need to determine the minimum testing you want to see in the parents and that is a personal choice. VGL has not been proven just in the research phase with a strong hunch and using that over health clearances would concern me as a buyer and the sire's testing in not complete.


yeah, I thought it was odd that not all the testing is done on OFA but I thought since Pawprint genetics is one of the approved OFA labs, that it would be fine.. Either way, what's making me hesitant right now isn't even the tests.. it's the size and age of the puppy (as they're the last few left).. I'll have to do more research


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

mrtobympoo said:


> it's the size and age of the puppy


Curious now, what is the size and age, and makes you hesitant?


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## mrtobympoo (4 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Curious now, what is the size and age, and makes you hesitant?


The puppy is in it's 12 weeks IIRC and preferably I'd want to pick the puppy up in person. Since the breeder is out of state, I expect it'll take at least a week to make the arrangements= 13/14 week old puppy. I've read how 14 weeks is the end of the socialization window (not to say a puppy can't learn new things 🤓) and I also thought that since they're coming from a more rural area, I'd want to socialize him to everything in my area from a younger age (and I admit that last reason is me being super picky).. 
As for size, the parents are at the cusp of 22 inches and ideally I want a spoo a tad larger 🙂..I scoured the forum for some size comparisons across standards and realized how big of a difference an inch or two makes, lol. It seemed that finding breeders with spoo's in the 23+ inch range were more common than smaller standards <21 (seen some marketing or comparing them to moyens, which I'm not sure how to feel about that). Also in the beginning of my search I was more rigid about the color I wanted, but I decided that since temperament/lifestyle compatibility is more important, I'd rather be matched by the breeder from a range of puppies than to choose one myself such as in this instance..
I realize I'm rambling 🤣


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

It's really easy to get paralyzed by choices. Sadly, there isn't a perfect breeder or a perfect dog. I think if you have to err, it's best to err by going with someone who does puppy temperament testing. I've really noticed a difference in my guys. Galen, who comes from show lines, has a rock steady temperament. I can bring him just about anywhere and trust him to react to stress by wagging his tail and flirting. Ritter, my late Pogo, and my late Snarky all came from color breeder lines. Much as I loved them, I can say that all my color breds have had a more reactive temperament. Pogo's habit of trying to catch Amazon trucks, Snarky's attempts to sneakily start a dog fight, Ritter's habit of barking at any strange dog, make for some interesting management challenges. When I spoke to a behaviorist about Ritter's reactivity, she said: "It sounds like you've done everything right regarding socialization and training. He is certainly demonstrating a good Settle right now as we talk. Sometimes these things are just genetic." She went on to add that she has noticed an uptick in reactive poodles recently.


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## mrtobympoo (4 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> It's really easy to get paralyzed by choices. Sadly, there isn't a perfect breeder or a perfect dog. I think if you have to err, it's best to err by going with someone who does puppy temperament testing. I've really noticed a difference in my guys. Galen, who comes from show lines, has a rock steady temperament. I can bring him just about anywhere and trust him to react to stress by wagging his tail and flirting. Ritter, my late Pogo, and my late Snarky all came from color breeder lines. Much as I loved them, I can say that all my color breds have had a more reactive temperament. Pogo's habit of trying to catch Amazon trucks, Snarky's attempts to sneakily start a dog fight, Ritter's habit of barking at any strange dog, make for some interesting management challenges. When I spoke to a behaviorist about Ritter's reactivity, she said: "It sounds like you've done everything right regarding socialization and training. He is certainly demonstrating a good Settle right now as we talk. Sometimes these things are just genetic." She went on to add that she has noticed an uptick in reactive poodles recently.


Haha I really enjoyed reading your poo's personalities! Such quirky beings poodles are  and I agree, puppy temperament testing and placing is so important in my search now. You also remind my realization I had when I was educating myself on socializing/training: sometimes, nature does overtake nurture- I had begun to think I can socialize and train a puppy to anything and everything until I realized that they also have personalities, lol!
I wonder if the uptick in reactive poodles can all be attributed to the pandemic..


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

mrtobympoo said:


> I wonder if the uptick in reactive poodles can all be attributed to the pandemic..


I'm sure some of it can be attributed to the pandemic: people not getting their dogs properly socialized. I think, also, some of it is poor breeding practices. I also think the current fads for doodles, red poodles, and royal standards has resulted in some sub-par poodles being bred. Ritter is now around 27 inches, 70 pounds, with cafe coloring. As I mentioned, he is reactive around other dogs. If I were a backyard breeder with the single goal of producing honking big unusually colored dogs, I'd be looking for a girlfriend for him now. If my goal was temperamentally sound and athletic dogs, well, hmm, maybe not.


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## mrtobympoo (4 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> I'm sure some of it can be attributed to the pandemic: people not getting their dogs properly socialized. I think, also, some of it is poor breeding practices. I also think the current fads for doodles, red poodles, and royal standards has resulted in some sub-par poodles being bred. Ritter is now around 27 inches, 70 pounds, with cafe coloring. As I mentioned, he is reactive around other dogs. If I were a backyard breeder with the single goal of producing honking big unusually colored dogs, I'd be looking for a girlfriend for him now. If my goal was temperamentally sound and athletic dogs, well, hmm, maybe not.


Ritter's a big boy! In all this search, it slipped my mind that a backyard breeders are still very much prevalent.. Also goes to say your previous point on color-specific breedings


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

IMO, the pedigrees on the sire and dam are both rather unremarkable. There is little titling, either in breed OR performance to support why the dogs in the pedigree have been bred, and what titles there are, are pretty far back for the most part and mostly UKC, which is generally easier to title in than AKC. Most responsible breeders are proving their breeding stock worth breeding structure-wise by finishing to conformation championships and/or temperament/biddability-wise by finishing to performance titles. Coupled with the incomplete health testing, and the fact that you have missed important socialization periods (I start working with my puppies as soon as I bring them home around 8 1/2 weeks), I would look elsewhere. But the decision is, of course, yours to ultimately make. If you want recommendations for a breeder that does all health testing at a minimum to get a CHIC number, and many times even more, reach out to the breeder referral contact for your region at the Poodle Club of America PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America

I purchased my youngest as a performance prospect from a breeder who did all health testing, did temperament testing on the litter for placement and raised with ENS, bio-sensor exercises and puppy culture. She is currently 18 months old and has her CGCA and TKN titles. We have just started competing and she has her first Qs towards titles in both AKC Rally and Agility as well as a number of Qs in CPE agility. You will have your puppy hopefully for a very long time, so make sure you are absolutely comfortable with everything before you buy. I have waited more than a year several times when looking for a puppy to make sure I found the right fit.


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## mrtobympoo (4 mo ago)

Thank you Eclipse and everyone for your advice!! I should have updated that I ultimately decided to pass on the pup, but I do want to give credit to the breeder as they rear them exactly the way you described above (but as what everyone said, the health testing is iffy). I see myself asking again for everyone's opinions in the future and I'm more rest assured knowing I can count on yall ♥


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

mrtobympoo said:


> Thank you Eclipse and everyone for your advice!! I should have updated that I ultimately decided to pass on the pup, but I do want to give credit to the breeder as they rear them exactly the way you described above (but as what everyone said, the health testing is iffy). I see myself asking again for everyone's opinions in the future and I'm more rest assured knowing I can count on yall ♥


I would reiterate that you should reach out to the breeder referral contact for your region from PCA at the link I posted above. They know of both litters on the ground as well as planned breedings, so you can make decisions accordingly as to which breeders you might be interested in contacting, and then ultimately working with after speaking to them. I have had a number of Standards over the years and have worked with amazing breeders. They are out there!

Just as an example regarding my comments about the unremarkable pedigrees of the sire/dam on the puppy you were considering, here is the pedigree of my youngest of 18 months that I mentioned in my post above. All dogs in red are AKC breed champions. Lots of history there as to proving conformation/structure which is hughly important to performance dogs. Temperament testing guided me to the pup from the litter best suited to me, the other dogs in my house and my goals as to training, showing and titleing in multiple performance venues. Another pup in the litter (of 7) went to a home where he was going to be trained as a Service Dog (and at 18 months is meeting/exceeding all his goals there as well as being shown in breed towards his AKC championship). Other pups are treasured family companions, hiking/biking buddies, etc, etc.


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## mrtobympoo (4 mo ago)

Interesting, thank you! I did reach out to my PCA a few weeks ago through email but got no response,,, but that was okay since I'm currently in touch with a breeder who is out of state and I have a really good feeling about it. 
I've seen some breeders who will provide pedigree upon request.. I'm curious, are there any reasons to do that instead of putting it up on their website?


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

mrtobympoo said:


> Interesting, thank you! I did reach out to my PCA a few weeks ago through email but got no response,,, but that was okay since I'm currently in touch with a breeder who is out of state and I have a really good feeling about it.
> I've seen some breeders who will provide pedigree upon request.. I'm curious, are there any reasons to do that instead of putting it up on their website?


Not everyone knows how to put pedigrees or other info on their web site. In fact, there are many good breeders who do not have a web site. I had originally planned to breed my mini and was certainly not planning a web site. I have been involved with breeding and showing poodles for over 50 years, so I felt that if I bred a litter the information would spread through the poodle show network and I would have no problem selling the puppies.


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