# Colors Please Explain How You Get Black Poodles From Cream and Brown Parents



## Saphire (Nov 15, 2013)

Can someone explain which colors are dominant?

A breeder I am interested in has a Brown poodle being bred to a Cream poodle and she expects brown and black puppies. How is that possible? I thought black was dominant?

I thought brown and cream bred together produce fading dogs? This is an experienced breeder who shows and competes and has gotten designations from AKC this is not a backyard breeder or mill.

Anyone know of a good site that explains this. 

Any way to predict how many will be each color (I know anything is possible)

I personally do not want black and hate the idea of waiting until the puppies are born only to find there are no browns that are of the gender I want. If I were willing to take black there are a number currently available from reputable breeders, no reason to wait


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

I’m sure someone else will post the link to the color chart that is referred to often here. But just as a short answer (and hopefully I am getting this right, I am not an expert) both of the parents would have been color tested. I believe that the cream would have been found to carry cream and brown and black and the brown would have been found to not carry for cream, so only brown. 

I think for cream or brown they have to receive that gene from both parents so since the brown doesn’t carry for cream, no cream puppies will be produced - hopefully this is the case because most breeders don’t breed cream to brown because they don’t want to have liver nosed creams. Since the cream dog carries for black, and black is dominant over brown, black puppies can be produced. 

Hopefully someone like coldbrew or another color expert will chime in and give a better answer. I’m still learning. You can also find the chart Im sure if you just search the forum for color genetics.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Here is the poodle color chart
https://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color-b.html

And here is an article that explains color genetics. See the MJ Rawlings article in March 2015 issue of the Poodle Club of Canada’s Poodle Scene. Article starts on page 14, so you need to scroll down.
http://www.poodleclubcanada.club/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2015-PCC-News-2-Spring.pdf

The short answer to your questions is that a brown x cream breeding can definitely produce black puppies. Brown and cream are both recessive, so you need a brown gene from both parents to produce a brown pup, and you need a cream gene from both parents to produce a cream pup.

A brown poodle is bb and might be bbEe or bbEE. A cream poodle is ee and might be BBee, Bbee, or bbee. You say that the breeder is expecting brown and black puppies. That suggests that she is breeding a bbEE (brown, does not carry the cream gene) to a Bbee (cream, carries the brown gene). From that breeding every puppy would be Ee which means none of them are cream. Half of the puppies would be BbEe (black) and half would be bbEe (brown). Of course, the half black and half brown is just a statistical probability. You could easily have more of one color in the same way that flipping a coin 8 times can result in more heads than tails. 

Hope this helps.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

The cream x brown breeding will not necessarily produce fading colors. Fading is thought to be caused by a gene that has not yet been identified (so there is no test for it). If the brown dog has not faded, then he probably does not carry this fading gene. For information on whether the cream dog carries the fading gene, look at his/her parents if they are black-spectrum or brown-spectrum, or look at the grandparents. Poodles in the pedigree that are fading colors (silver, blue or silver beige, cafe au lait) suggest the presence of a fading gene.

For example, my Sam is cream. His father is silver and his mother is cream. His mother's parents are blue and black. So he definitely carries a fading gene and he has passed it on to his offspring.


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## Saphire (Nov 15, 2013)

Thank you. Makes it much clearer.

What about the points? Any risk of them being mismatched?

Also, assuming it is a black and brown litter will the breeder be able to tell color on the day they come?


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## Saphire (Nov 15, 2013)

Thank you. So a black puppy will always have black points. Do brown puppies always have liver noses or can they have black?


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Yes black puppies will always have black points and brown puppies will always have liver points. The breeder will know the day that they arrive which color they are.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

One potential problem (and a reason that most litters are not white and cream cross) is that the browns in the litter can carry cream and if bred to a black or brown or any other color carrying cream you can end up with liver colored creams which is undesirable. Color testing would need to be done on both sides before breeding a puppy out of a litter like this.


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