# what to look for in a breeder?



## SteviM95 (Jul 9, 2014)

*What to look for when you are looking for a breeder*

Ok, not sure if some IT person at work is trying to interfere with my poodle forum posts or if I got censored by PF. If this is not appropriate to discuss HERE, please direct me to another forum.

My dilemna - I am not a DOG PERSON <yet>. In the past 20 years I have had 4 dogs as pets - I never showed, I never did dog sports. My first pup was a mutt from a local rescue, the last 3 were miniature poodles found on pet finder/poodle rescue. Because of the ASPCA commercials and the general talk about puppy mills, I thought the best way to get a dog was through humane shelters, period. BUT THEN, my mom was looking for another dog and there was an issue with a person presenting herself as representing a poodle shelter. That did not work out, and when I talked to my family vet (who has been listed as a reference), he stated that he wanted me to get my mom a dog from a breeder - a dog that did not come with behavior issues or health problems. I respect this vet immensely - all my dogs liked/trusted him, he told my mom when it was time to let her dogs go peacefully, he does charity work, he has been a vet for many, many years. He actually lives above his vet practice and checks on all his surgical patients overnight. It was the first time I ever thought that breeding COULD be an ok thing. 

In the meantime, I was cleared by an allergist to have a dog in my home again. My mom had to move from her hometown closer to me, and cannot have a dog in her current apartment. I got the puppy. I am happy with the spoo I got, but I still have ALOT of questions about how to pick out a good breeder. Why is it not enough to be AKC registered? If that is not enough - what is being done through the AKC to establish higher standards? Is there another association (in the US, where I live) that outlines standards for breeders? How can responsible dog people educate people like myself in an easy to find, practical way to pick out a breeder?


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I will give you my take on your questions. I am sure others will have a more complete answer as to health and education issues.

First, the AKC is simply an organization to keep track of purebred dogs. It uses the definition of an acceptable purebred as given to it by the breed-specific organization. In the case of the poodle, that would be the Poodle Club of America (PCA) who tells the AKC what is the proper conformation (size, color, etc) for a poodle. So if you get a puppy that is AKC registered, all that says is it is a purebred poodle.

Puppy mills have AKC registered poodles. Back yard breeders have AKC registered poodles. There is no national law that requires certain health testing before a person can breed a dog, be it a purebred or a mutt. Some states have lemon laws that are trying to get breeders to be more concerned about health issues. But if a person is just in it for the money and they can somehow acquire an AKC registered dog, they can breed a dog without any additional testing. It's just money to these people. So it is up to the buyer to educate themselves before buying a puppy.

On the AKC website and also on the PCA website, there are a list of the possible health issues for poodles. Some of these are genetic problems that could be eliminated if the breeder would pay for the genetic testing. Some breeders do this. Many more do not want to spend the extra money. If they do, they will pass on the extra expense to the buyer and then the puppies cost more, and some people cannot afford that more expensive puppy. Thus they go to puppy mills and back yard breeders. This is not a simple problem. A lot of it has to do with economics.

Health Concerns - Poodle Club of America
Versatility In Poodles - Health Issues and Poodles

A buyer can go to the web sites above and learn what to look out for when looking for a poodle puppy. Coming to the Poodle Forum is another place people can educate themselves on that to look for.

Making laws that enforce health concerns is a tricky business. Too many restrictions makes it hard for good breeders to breed their dogs. Too little and breeders in it for the money only can breed dogs that never should have been bred.

So it's caveat emptor, let the buyer beware, or better, let the buyer educate themselves. There are lots of places on the web to do that. Unfortunately, we don't know we need educating sometimes until after we have had the heartbreak of owning a puppy with a lot of health problems.

Once you learn the tests that a good breeder will do, having that information in hand, you look for recommendations from the PCA for breeders and also on the web until your find a breeder that does the testing for health and temperament that you want.

I hope this helps.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i would add to minipoo's excellent explanation that even breeders with great reputations can fail on an important issue. and breeders who consider themselves good breeders can disagree about what that actually means in terms of testing and eventually selling their dogs. there are also breeders who are technically extremely adept at picking dogs to breed and then one learns how they actually treat their dogs. and, of course, there have been a few cases mentioned here of breeders who simply became too old and ill to do right by their dogs anymore and really lost their way...

so i would say the more you know ahead of time, the better chance you have of finding a good breeder. to quote that old russian saying made famous in the u.s. by ronald reagan, "trust, but verify." walk away from anyone who takes umbrage at your desire to ask about testing, coefficient of inbreeding, temperament, whether dogs are raised in kennels or in the home, health guarantees, vaccination protocols, socialization, etc.


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## SteviM95 (Jul 9, 2014)

MiniPoo said:


> I will give you my take on your questions. I am sure others will have a more complete answer as to health and education issues.
> 
> First, the AKC is simply an organization to keep track of purebred dogs. It uses the definition of an acceptable purebred as given to it by the breed-specific organization. In the case of the poodle, that would be the Poodle Club of America (PCA) who tells the AKC what is the proper conformation (size, color, etc) for a poodle. So if you get a puppy that is AKC registered, all that says is it is a purebred poodle.
> 
> ...



Actually that was very helpful. I remember looking at a website about poodles, but I do not remember seeing the link you gave me from the PCA... Or a very simple booklet I found on the PCA website that tells you what is your responsibility to ask the breeder. I do still wish it was more up and center though. I really did look into breeders for awhile, but then I got frustrated and went with my gut. Bindi is beautiful, smart, and entertaining. But thanks for pointing me to the PCA. Iowa does not have a poodle club, but there is a tri-state one. I will have to see if I can make time for some events.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

patk said:


> ... there are also breeders who are technically extremely adept at picking dogs to breed and then one learns how they actually treat their dogs. and, of course, there have been a few cases mentioned here of breeders who simply became too old and ill to do right by their dogs anymore and really lost their way...


Thanks patk for adding this point to the discussion. I couldn't agree more. Two of the saddest poodles that I have ever seen were breeder's dogs. The way breeders treat their breeding dogs has always been important to me. It is important because it is heart-breaking to see breeding dogs that are not properly loved and supported, but it is also important because a loved and supported bitch is able to give her pups such a good start in life. Raising a litter of confident happy puppies is something that takes a happy healthy mother dog and a breeder who has plenty of time and resources to devote to the task. Look for a breeder who obviously loves his/her dogs, who doesn't have too many of them, who doesn't breed them too often, and who does not always have puppies available. Meet the mother dog before you make a decision and look into her eyes to make sure that you see joy, not sadness. Ask where the pups will be born and raised. IMO they should be in a home, not in a kennel, and when the mother has young pups, she should be free to enter and leave the whelping box -- freely having access to feed and clean her pups, and time away from them to rest.

(I don't mean to imply that a happy mother dog is the only important thing. Obviously, the health, temperament and structure of the parents are important and need to be evaluated.)


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

To add to what patk and peppersb said (and I agree with them)...

Here are some indicators that you could look for, beyond registration, and testing for problems, which are absolutely central.

One indicator of a good breeder is that they will interview you to see if they want you to have one of their dogs. They care so much about their dogs, that it's not about the sale of a dog, it's about finding the right home for the puppies.

It will be a breeder who is happy to introduce you to the dam, who socialises the puppies in a family setting, and probably who also insists that she or he selects a puppy for you...having lived with them since birth, she or he has the best idea of the temperaments, and which puppy will thrive best with which family or individual.

It will be a breeder who follows up with you, and who delights in knowing the details of how the puppy is growing up.

It will also be someone who puts in your contract that the puppy be returned if there are problems or if you can't care for your dog for whatever reason.

These are the things that make a great breeder, and set them apart from others...


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