# For all you guys out there feeding "RAW"



## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I am convinced that raw is the best thing for my dog. I have read enough to finally become a believer... however, is there anything wrong with doing both kibble and raw ? I have been giving Carley a raw meal about every other day and feeding Taste of the Wild the rest of the time. I do plan to add more raw meals, but worry about her not getting everything she needs. I need more resources, I can't find so many of the things that I read others are giving their dogs. Would it be okay to feed half raw, half kibble? I would be more comfortable making a slow switch as I educate myself... Thanks


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

There is evidence that raw and kibble are digested at different rates, and the advice is not to muix them in a single meal - I am not sure how this would affect feeding them at separate meals - CharismaticMillie has done a lot of research and may have more information. What is it that you can't source? There is probably an alternative!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Good luck getting your dog to eat the kibble once you're on raw! I hear most wont touch kibble much after


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

So far, Carley is eating both kibble and raw great. I don't mix the kibble with the raw, I give a raw or a kibble meal. I have been able to find turkey necks and wings, beef ribs and chicken. I have not seen any rabbit, deer or sheep and not much organ meat either, however, I have not looked everywhere. Any advice ? Thanks!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Fresh liver is usually fairly easy to find in supermarkets, as is kidney, in the UK at least. Other organ meats are more difficult, but are available frozen from pet food suppliers - I get frozen green tripe that way, too, which is an excellent source of everything dogs need.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

fjm, I don't even know what "green tripe" is. I will have to google it. lol That's why I want to switch slow, so much to learn. I love Carley so much and want to do what is best for her.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Green (means unprocessed) tripe is a ruminant's stomach, INCLUDING whatever stomach contents stick. A great source of fiber and vitamin E (from the stomach contents). It smells ferocious, often like cow poop.

Beef liver is always avaialable at the grocery.

The other items can be ordered if you don't have a convenient source.

You can be assured that raw feeding gives what your dog needs IF you include the raw bone. Not a recreational chew bone. I mean the bone your dog eats, like those in a chicken wing or neck. I was curious today and started to run my dog's diet against AAFCO guidelines. The chicken necks alone exceeded it. Of course it is a MINIMUM guideline, variety and "supplements" are necessary. By supplements I mean the occassional egg, dollop of yogurt, cooked fruits/veggies, occassional cook grain (not much or often). I feed the boney bone (not enough meat to be nutritional), meaty meat (boneless meat), then find something in the fridge, usually from our leftovers.

I can't find evidence that kibble and raw *must* be fed separately. I know people that do it. One man is a trainer/breeder/broker and has an ENORMOUS kennel facility. He moves a huge number of dogs. He feeds raw and kibble together. No problems. I've done it too, but I had one dog that always got intestinal infection if I fed any a treat within 4 hours of feeding raw. He might be a fluke, but I'm not going to tell someone they are wrong for not feeding together! The theory is that kibble takes longer to digest than raw, and that this gives time for bacteria to colonize. I do not know if it is true. I would say there is a low risk of problems if fed together. The only time I feed together is putting some kibbles on top of egg to encourage my dog to eat it.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I am not at all sold on the whole issue with mixing raw with kibble. I had no issue when I did it in the past and it doesn't entirely make sense to me.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

When feeding egg is it cooked? How much tripe do I give a 50lb dog and how often? I also thought the fruit/veggies were also raw, is this not so? I have been giving Carley her raw meal in evening and her kibble meal in the morning, not ever together. Thanks for all this info!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I feed eggs raw.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I am not at all sold on the whole issue with mixing raw with kibble. I had no issue when I did it in the past and it doesn't entirely make sense to me.


I feed PMR, no kibble, but I do agree with CM here. I don't believe there is a problem with raw and kibble. I have found no scientific data on this. If I was going to feed kibble though I would give it at separate meals.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I feed raw but I do use kibbles as training treats and Nickel has never had any problem.

re: eggs. I give him a raw egg every other day.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I feed eggs cooked, because otherwise Poppy gets them all over herself, and raw egg is the devil to get out of poodle ears. I feed tripe around one meal in three or four, at the same amount as any other meat meal (around 40-50g for my dogs) - mine get fed twice a day. I have heard of people who feed it for practically every meal and have healthy dogs. The dogs love it, I hate the smell, but can just about cope provided it comes in the right size chunks and I don't have to handle it too much. The minced tripe is truly repulsive!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

fjm, I ordered the tripe (canned). I can only imagine how bad it is going to smell... my husband is going to think I have lost my mind. I just changed from blue to TOTW when I am such a huge blue supporter. He questioned me about that and I told him I had hear it was better, he just shaked his head. He is going to flip when I go raw. lol


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## lmperez (Sep 7, 2011)

When I fed a mixture of kibble and raw my dog would get a lot of gas and I would hear his stomach gurgle. Now he gets only raw and no more gas or gurgle. I did speak to the owner of a raw food company and she did say that the rates of digestion is different. She suggest if you want to feed both do 1morning meal all raw and the next all kibble (evening) or reverse whatever works best.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lmperez said:


> When I fed a mixture of kibble and raw my dog would get a lot of gas and I would hear his stomach gurgle. Now he gets only raw and no more gas or gurgle. I did speak to the owner of a raw food company and she did say that the rates of digestion is different. She suggest if you want to feed both do 1morning meal all raw and the next all kibble (evening) or reverse whatever works best.


I don't think there is any question that raw meat and cooked carbohydrates digest at different rates. I think it's whether or not that is innately problematic. IMO the problem is the kibble, period.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have been giving Carley her kibble in the morning and raw in the evening. I gave her fish, egg and chicken heart tonight and she liked it. I am learning more and more, I have some green tripe ordered! I think I will go to all raw soon. Thanks everyone for all your help! I love this forum!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

One thing I did want to say. I can already tell a differance in her eye boogers. She used to get brown crusty boogers almost everyday, they are already gone! Her teeth are better too. No more vet cleaning bills for me!


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## lmperez (Sep 7, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I don't think there is any question that raw meat and cooked carbohydrates digest at different rates. I think it's whether or not that is innately problematic. IMO the problem is the kibble, period.


I agree. Let me just say that the gas that Bo expelled was definantly problematic for us :vollkommenauf:


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Okay, I made some treats since both my dogs think they must have one everytime they come in from being out to potty. They have flaxseed, dried blueberries, oatmeat ect. But I know I need to feed fruits and veggies. Again, I need help, how much , how often ? Thanks!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Carley's Mom said:


> Okay, I made some treats since both my dogs think they must have one everytime they come in from being out to potty. They have flaxseed, dried blueberries, oatmeat ect. But I know I need to feed fruits and veggies. Again, I need help, how much , how often ? Thanks!


I can't help you here. I do not feed fruits, veggies or grains. I feed a diet of raw meat, bone and organ. I am sure there are other raw feeders here who do feed BARF or a veggie/fruit/grain inclusive diet and can help.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I feed a few veg, cooked in with the meats my dogs don't like raw, although I think of them as an optional extra, rather than an essential. Dogs can't digest cellulose, so fruit and veg needs to be either cooked or pureed if it is not to go straight through them. I reckon mine get most of any vegetable matter they need from the green tripe (predigested, too!) - they used to self supplement with sheep and cow poo, as well as that perennial favourite rabbit buttons, but do much less of that now. I add a small quantity of mixed veg on the grounds that it does no harm, may do some good, and fills the bowl up a bit when I am cutting down the calories.

If you want to add veg and fruit, then the basic guidelines I have amassed are:
1 - No onions, and garlic only in small quantities, if at all.
2 - Solanacea (potatoes, tomatoes, aubergines) in limited quantities - they may aggravate arthritis if it is present. I'm not sure how this advice matches up with the high end kibbles that are largely potato, but the world of dog feeding is full of contradictions!
3 - Green leafy veg is good in small quantities, but inadvisable in large.
4 - given all that, any combination of green veg (cabbage, spinach, broccoli, etc), root veg (carrots, parsnips, sweet potato, etc), peas and beans (although I have seen these discouraged somewhere - can't remember where! Mine love French Beans), the odd tomato, squash and zucchini, fruit and anything else your dogs like, up to around 10 - 20% of the diet. As with the meat and bone component, variety is the key - mine tend to get whatever I have in the fridge or freezer. Don't overdo the veg unless you like very large, very smelly poos!

Carbohydrates in the form of grains etc really are unnecessary - there is a bit in the veg, of course. They are a cheap source of calories, but dogs don't digest them easily. I use rice if they are having problems with diarrhoea, and rice, oats or whatever flour I have in the cupboard when baking treats, but don't add carbs to their meals on a regular basis. 

Your treats sound delicious!

ETA - No grapes, raisins or avocados, either - I forgot those! Although I think there is still debate about the avocado...


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

No worries. Dog adapt well to grain, veggie, and fruit in the diet. You can feed lots one day and not for a whiel and everything will be fine. As long as your meat and bone is staying the same, don't sweat it.


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## Lily (Feb 29, 2012)

Thanks CM. All the questions you asked here are exactly the ones I have. Hmm... I am planning to give my pup raw chicken necks as a treat every afternoon as a start. And raw eggs every other day. Hope he'll like it!

Btw I heard kong is a good toy for dogs. Has anyone here tried putting raw meat/organs/bones into a kong? How do I go about that?


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## Lily (Feb 29, 2012)

How about squid?


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't know about putting raw meat in a kong, if would have to be cleaned very well after... don't know about squid either. 

I am still feeding Carley Taste of the Wild in the morning and raw in the evening. She is eating both well.


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## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

Just a thought: if you board your dogs, you might want to make sure they will still eat kibble sometimes (maybe one of their meals each day, or at least a snack?). Many boarding facilities won't feed RAW.

BTW, my poodle eats kibble, and he doesn't get a gurggly or gassy stomach. It depends on the dog and/or the food.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

All the boarding facilities around here will feed raw thank goodness! Ziwipeak is a great alternative though when you cannot feed raw.


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## vtomblin (Jul 18, 2010)

I feed raw and kibble. I feed the raw in the morning and kibble at night. I find the kibble keeps their tummies full longer so you don't have the early morning bone chip barf from being hungry. Just a thought. It works great for us. They love the kibble (acana with orijin rotated through for variety) My trainer also said that raw digests faster and if it is behind kibble in the digestive track it can cause gas which is a concern for poodles because of bloat. It makes sense but you decide what you believe. Good luck. Do you have an asian market in your area? I can buy all sorts of animal parts there. Also bags of chicken carcass for $2.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i've been mixing raw and kibble together every meal. i've not noticed any changes in their poo (except seelie's stress poo the other day from road trip and then all day grooming).

and i know with out a doubt that temperance will NOT eat kibble plain anymore. In fact, i tried to feed her kibble w/ broth and she didn't eat. at all. She wants meat. now. period. end of discussion. 

(she's a diva)


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I just found my first fresh tripe at Wallmart ! OMG that stuff is sick. Do people eat that? Carley loved it. I don't know how much to feed her. I also got some of the no salt added bags of sardines. She liked those too. She likes everything, I am lucky. So help me out here, how much and how often. Thanks.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Carley's Mom said:


> I just found my first fresh tripe at Wallmart ! OMG that stuff is sick. Do people eat that? Carley loved it. I don't know how much to feed her. I also got some of the no salt added bags of sardines. She liked those too. She likes everything, I am lucky. So help me out here, how much and how often. Thanks.


Tripe that is sold for human consumption is different from the tripe that is beneficial for dogs. Tripe at Walmart or any store providing food for people has been scalded and/or bleached. It retains very little of the nutrients that GREEN tripe has. In order to get GREEN tripe, you must look outside of stores that sell any food for human consumption. In fact, it's illegal to sell green tripe if a store sells any food for people. I say definitely go ahead and feed the tripe that you bought for a fun, _chewy_ snack, but it won't provide much, if anything, as far as nutrients go.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Thanks CM, I am still learning.... I got some TOTW venison at a nat. pet store. It is canned. What do you think of that product? What do you use and where can I find it?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Are you talking about just a regular canned dog food or is it canned venison tripe? As far as canned (and thus cooked) tripe goes, I like Tripett as it is pure canned green tripe.

For raw, green tripe you'll have to find a supplier. I use My Pet Carnivore as they are a local (Midwest) small business. Hopefully someone in your area will post and say where they get theirs affordably.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

I found pre-made raw Vita Essentials at the local pet health store. Does anyone use this food? Thanks!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Carley's Mom said:


> I just found my first fresh tripe at Wallmart ! OMG that stuff is sick. Do people eat that? Carley loved it. I don't know how much to feed her. I also got some of the no salt added bags of sardines. She liked those too. She likes everything, I am lucky. So help me out here, how much and how often. Thanks.


That's not the right product. The tripe you find at a grocery store is cleaned. I think it might be bleached too?

"Green" tripe is unprocessed and includes stomach contents. It smells strongly of manure. It will vary in appearance according to which of the 4 "stomachs" of the ruminant it is from. Omassum is one of the "farthest-down" sections and the contents are more vile and manure-like.

The remaining stomach contents that comes along with tripe is why it is highly valued as a source of microbes, vitamins and minerals. Of course, this varies with what the cow was eating. The stomach contents of corn fed cows are particularly high in vitamin E, for example. 

Tripe must be fed with "boney bones" to maintain a safe calcium/phosphorus ratio. Check the AAFCO to get the correct ratio for your dog's life stage. Then a little bit of chemistry and a little more algebra and that's the answer to "how much" and with what.

If you want to do the math, I can help you through it. I don't want to throw it out there and scare people away.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

petitpie said:


> I found pre-made raw Vita Essentials at the local pet health store. Does anyone use this food? Thanks!


My friend's dog died from toxins in a commercially prepared raw food. I don't remember the brand name anymore, but I've never fed commercial raw diet for that reason.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> Tripe must be fed with "boney bones" to maintain a safe calcium/phosphorus ratio. Check the AAFCO to get the correct ratio for your dog's life stage. Then a little bit of chemistry and a little more algebra and that's the answer to "how much" and with what.


I have always read that raw green tripe is actually already balanced calc/phos, unlike other raw muscle meats.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

petitpie said:


> I found pre-made raw Vita Essentials at the local pet health store. Does anyone use this food? Thanks!


Have fed this brand on occasion when I need to feed raw patties for travel. I like it because it's not HPP like the bigger brands, no added fruits or veggies, and much cheaper. I do wish that they had greater variety when it comes to protein sources.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I have always read that raw green tripe is actually already balanced calc/phos, unlike other raw muscle meats.


I don't remember that. It would take me some time to dig up nutritional anaylsis for rumen with contents. I remember it being really hard to find and I love the bookmark when my computer crashed last year. 
There is tons of research on rumen contents for livestock feed efficiency, it's tedious to srot through it all.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> I don't remember that. It would take me some time to dig up nutritional anaylsis for rumen with contents. I remember it being really hard to find and I love the bookmark when my computer crashed last year.
> There is tons of research on rumen contents for livestock feed efficiency, it's tedious to srot through it all.


Well, you could do that. But I bet you'll find calc/phos. to be essentially 1:1. This is what was found in multiple analyses done on raw green tripe.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Well, you could do that. But I bet you'll find calc/phos. to be essentially 1:1.


Wow, love = lost. My typing is a mess today. I have slept right in weeks, that might as something to so with it.

You have me very curious. For an adult dog, it would not be a problem to feed some excess bone since adults can excrete up to 40% of ingested calcium. But for a puppy it could be a real problem.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> Wow, love = lost. My typing is a mess today. I have slept right in weeks, that might as something to so with it.
> 
> You have me very curious. For an adult dog, it would not be a problem to feed some excess bone since adults can excrete up to 40% of ingested calcium. But for a puppy it could be a real problem.


What does excess bone have to do with green tripe?


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> What does excess bone have to do with green tripe?


If green tripe is 1:1 and extra bone was added (the feeder assuming it is not 1:1), then an excess of calcium would be fed. For an occassional meal for an adult dog it wouldn't be a problem. But if that was the regular diet for a puppy calcium excess could cause problems, possibly even bone deformity.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> If green tripe is 1:1 and extra bone was added (the feeder assuming it is not 1:1), then an excess of calcium would be fed. For an occassional meal for an adult dog it wouldn't be a problem. But if that was the regular diet for a puppy calcium excess could cause problems, possibly even bone deformity.


I do understand what you're saying. But, a raw diet of green tripe and raw meaty bones wouldn't be balanced anyway, so problems greater than excess calcium would likely exist!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I do understand what you're saying. But, a raw diet of green tripe and raw meaty bones wouldn't be balanced anyway, so problems greater than excess calcium would likely exist!


How much meat is on the bone? That would be pretty close if you're talking 20% - 35% meat on the bones. You'd have the organ and muscle meat (protein and fat), bone (mineral), and carb/vitamin source. Of course I'm comparing to minimums, compared to what you feel is ideal. I'm more leery of nutritional excess than deficiency. My raw diet strategy has been variety. If I make a mistake, it gets 'balanced out' over a week or so.

The big concern about dog food being "complete and balanced" is because they eat it every day for months, years, maybe a lifetime. We don't carefully balance each meal for ourselves. We eat variety, and it works out over a day or week.

I believe that following some basic porportions and rule and really striving to feed a variety of "add-ons" makes raw diet quite simple. (Yes, I love to do the math and check it. That's just me. I was going to college for pre-vet, wanted to be a veterinary nutritionist. But my fiance will never live in a big city so I'd never get a job. I love that no matter how much I read and discuss, I'm always learning something new or finding misinformation that I used to believe was true.  )


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> How much meat is on the bone? That would be pretty close if you're talking 20% - 35% meat on the bones. You'd have the organ and muscle meat (protein and fat), bone (mineral), and carb/vitamin source. Of course I'm comparing to minimums, compared to what you feel is ideal. I'm more leery of nutritional excess than deficiency. My raw diet strategy has been variety. If I make a mistake, it gets 'balanced out' over a week or so.
> 
> The big concern about dog food being "complete and balanced" is because they eat it every day for months, years, maybe a lifetime. We don't carefully balance each meal for ourselves. We eat variety, and it works out over a day or week.
> 
> I believe that following some basic porportions and rule and really striving to feed a variety of "add-ons" makes raw diet quite simple. (Yes, I love to do the math and check it. That's just me. I was going to college for pre-vet, wanted to be a veterinary nutritionist. But my fiance will never live in a big city so I'd never get a job. I love that no matter how much I read and discuss, I'm always learning something new or finding misinformation that I used to believe was true.  )


I agree with you entirely about variety and balance over time. That is the principle I follow with raw feeding. The amount of variety I feed would probably be considered excessive to some. But for me, it's important. If I were unable to provide such variety, I'm not sure that I'd be as confident in my raw diet as I currently am. The dogs had goat on Wednesday, rabbit yesterday and pork today.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I know one thing, I am throwing that stuff away. It is so awful and if it is not good for her, why do it. I would just die if she threw it up...

The Taste of the Wild tripe is made from pure green venison tripe. It comes from New Zealand. 100% natural,99% pure green tripe. The ingredients are venison tripe, water, garlic and carrageenan gum. (unbleached)


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Carley's Mom said:


> I know one thing, I am throwing that stuff away. It is so awful and if it is not good for her, why do it. I would just die if she threw it up...
> 
> The Taste of the Wild tripe is made from pure green venison tripe. It comes from New Zealand. 100% natural,99% pure green tripe. The ingredients are venison tripe, water, garlic and carrageenan gum. (unbleached)


Sounds very similar to Tripett! Let us know how she likes it!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

It is tripett. She loves it, so does my shih tuz.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Carley's Mom said:


> It is tripett. She loves it, so does my shih tuz.


Didn't you say it was Taste of the Wild?


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I agree with you entirely about variety and balance over time. That is the principle I follow with raw feeding. The amount of variety I feed would probably be considered excessive to some. But for me, it's important. If I were unable to provide such variety, I'm not sure that I'd be as confident in my raw diet as I currently am. The dogs had goat on Wednesday, rabbit yesterday and pork today.


I recently learned that variety in the protein sources is not necessary. If youre protein sources are complete, you could feed the same for life. But the minerals, vitamins - that is where variety is of the essence.

Is variety in the protein source bad? Certainly not!! We should strive for it.


But you're not going to kill a dog with a "base meat" and do variety with the rest. Right now, I'm using chicken necks and boneless venison. I use seameal and omega 3-6-9. Then top it off with "extras" which change according to my diet and what I have in the fridge. I have the peace of mind to know my meat/bone/fat/protein is safe and meeting my dog's needs, then I know the variety of everything else will provide for the little (and important) stuff.

I think it is an option for people with limited resources/suppliers. I buy a case of meat (30 - 60#) at a time and have one "base" while it lasts. Some people will go with chicken leg quarters and hamburger. It works and it is at the grocery store.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not "better", it's more accessible.

(Kudos on the variety! I bet your dogs LOOOVE mealtime! I'm glad you mentioned it.)


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> I recently learned that variety in the protein sources is not necessary. If youre protein sources are complete, you could feed the same for life. But the minerals, vitamins - that is where variety is of the essence.
> 
> Is variety in the protein source bad? Certainly not!! We should strive for it.
> 
> ...


What proof can you provide for us that variety is not necessary? Can you tell us what one ( accessible) protein is complete in and of itself, providing all necessary vitamins and minerals? It is in the variety of protein sources that we hope to cover all bases and provide a diet that, over time, is complete with all necessary vitamins and minerals. It is a way of covering all bases in case one protein source is not providing everything our dog needs. The more variety, it seems, the less likely you're going to find a deficiency. Different protein sources are rich in different vitamins and minerals.

I feed frequent variety because it's easiest for me. I buy 2 and 5 lb. containers of whole, ground prey in various proteins. I buy mostly chicken and beef because they are cheapest, but I buy plenty of other variety when it's on sale and keep it in the freezer. I grab a few 2 or 5 lb. containers from the freezer, paying no attention to what protein it is, and move it to the fridge to thaw. At meal time, it's a surprise for everyone! I don't expect that anyone else feed the way I do or that my method of raw feeding is superior to any other. I know it works for my dogs. They've been on prey model raw for 1 1/2 years and can eat anything from an entire live bunny in the backyard to a stick of butter without ill effects.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

You're right that there is no single complete protein source. 

What I'm getting at is I would dislike someone to say "I can't feed raw because I can only get chicken and beef at the grocery." It can be done. It's not ideal as a protein source, but about 70% of protein in grain is digestible for dogs. Cooked grain can be used in the "other" part of the diet when there is a question about the completeness of protein.

I didn't mean a total lack of change in the diet. I get what you're saying. I thought that feeding 3 sources in a week might be discouraging to someone new to raw.

Most of my source is veterinary textbooks, and pro-raw books I've read. I went through a little pet weight coach training thing too that covered nutrition extremely basic and used pet food company research. Interesting to read both sides and try to do the right thing.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> I didn't mean a total lack of change in the diet. I get what you're saying. I thought that feeding 3 sources in a week might be discouraging to someone new to raw.


It could have been, had I not prefaced it by saying my unquenchable desire to provide variety would seem extreme to some. Heck, a new raw feeder would make their dog outright sick trying to feed 3 protein sources in a week.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Adding that the people that taught me raw diet, and I, buy in larger containers, which does change the feasibility of variety in quick succession. I learned raw as a base of chicken legs or necks and hamburger, with stuff added: mackerel, sardines, pork hearts, freezer-burned stuff, rabbit. not to mention veggies 4x/week, egg 3/week, yogurt, cottage cheese, 2 supplement powders, probiotic, salmon oil, vit E. They also stocked Evo and "Chicken Soup" kibbles. Oh I don't remeber the rest. I worked out really well the dogs were in awesome condition.

It was definitely "variety", but the meat/bone part was the same most of the time. How I feed was shaped by what I learned there. A lot of it was misinformation in the "why" but working out to the same "how". Make sense?


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Sorry, posting while you were. I understand now. 

Edited to add: I've tried other models, the frankenprey and prey model. I keep coming back to the base meat concept.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> Adding that the people that taught me raw diet, and I, buy in larger containers, which does change the feasibility of variety in quick succession. I learned raw as a base of chicken legs or necks and hamburger, with stuff added: mackerel, sardines, pork hearts, freezer-burned stuff, rabbit. not to mention veggies 4x/week, egg 3/week, yogurt, cottage cheese, 2 supplement powders, probiotic, salmon oil, vit E. They also stocked Evo and "Chicken Soup" kibbles. Oh I don't remeber the rest. I worked out really well the dogs were in awesome condition.
> 
> It was definitely "variety", but the meat/bone part was the same most of the time. How I feed was shaped by what I learned there. A lot of it was misinformation in the "why" but working out to the same "how". Make sense?


Of course. I feed prey model, so minimal to zero fruits or veggies. Because there are no fruits and vegetables, raw muscle meat and organ variety is _that much more_ important in this particular raw diet. If I couldn't provide enough variety, I'd feel compelled to start adding fruits and vegetables regularly.

Variety is over time. I see no issue with feeding a single protein source for a week or two at a time if necessary. To me, when someone speaks of a diet with no variety, it is a diet with no variety over time.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Awww... it's not prey model until you're feeding maggots, algae, and brains.  I'm a purist. lol Obviously we can't do a perfect prey model but it is entertaining to try.

Tripe is a good prey model food because some of the stomach (veggie) contents remain. Woves have been observed to shake out stomachs. Try to imagine how much (half-digested) veggie matter that would be. Wolves (and dogs) eat windfall apples, even pick berries. It's not a lot, but it is there.

If you're doing prey model, do you fast your dogs?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> Awww... it's not prey model until you're feeding maggots, algae, and brains.  I'm a purist. lol Obviously we can't do a perfect prey model but it is entertaining to try.
> 
> Tripe is a good prey model food because some of the stomach (veggie) contents remain. Woves have been observed to shake out stomachs. Try to imagine how much (half-digested) veggie matter that would be. Wolves (and dogs) eat windfall apples, even pick berries. It's not a lot, but it is there.
> 
> If you're doing prey model, do you fast your dogs?


I do feed lots of tripe! And (surprise surprise) lots of tripe from different animals (bison, lamb, and beef). 

My dogs do also get an occasional banana, carrot, apple, broccoli, green beans, etc. left over from my food a couple times a week. I just don't go out of my way to prepare it in their meals.

I do not fast my dogs. I'm not comfortable with that given the circumstances Henry was under when he bloated. :/ 

And clearly, I am not at all a purist. My prey model is really just Liz's version of it. Heh. Heck, I share ice cream and donuts with my dogs sometimes, LOL.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I had a dog that would do anything for ice cream. 

I don't think I've ever said this to anyone, but Wow, where do you get all your stuff?

I can get venison anything, buy cases of meat from the meat market, I *can* get inedibles from a butcher but I don't any more. I used to raise rabbits for meat, but sold all that when I became disabled.

I've seen a couple suppliers, but they're like $4 - $6/pound. Too much for me.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> I had a dog that would do anything for ice cream.
> 
> I don't think I've ever said this to anyone, but Wow, where do you get all your stuff?
> 
> ...


My Pet Carnivore! Don't know what I'd do without them. I do splurge on the exotics ($4-$6 range), but I try to get them when they have specials, and I stock up mostly on the more affordable stuff. I also go to local stores to find cheap raw meaty bones, etc.

Though admittedly I've been contemplating doing kibble for a while once I feed through all the meat I currently have since my fiance and I will be moving into our first home soon, getting married in 2 months, etc. etc.  Things are getting crazy.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

R tested positive for sensitivities to raw egg white. Raw unbroken yolks are a must. The oxidise VERY quickly so make sure your pup breaks the membrane himself.


_Avidin is a glycoprotein, which is found in raw egg whites, and blocks the uptake of Vitamin B6 and Vitamin H (Biotin) causing a vitamin deficiency (it binds to Biotin and iron making them unavailable). You 'must' cook/pasteurize the egg white to neutralize the Avidin and allow the body to safely digest the protein and utilize all its amino acids. Cooking egg whites at high temperatures denatures some of the amino acids which makes the proteins slightly less effective (slower digesting). _


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> What proof can you provide for us that variety is not necessary? Can you tell us what one ( accessible) protein is complete in and of itself, providing all necessary vitamins and minerals? It is in the variety of protein sources that we hope to cover all bases and provide a diet that, over time, is complete with all necessary vitamins and minerals. It is a way of covering all bases in case one protein source is not providing everything our dog needs. The more variety, it seems, the less likely you're going to find a deficiency. Different protein sources are rich in different vitamins and minerals.


Agreed. A varied diet is also less likely to contribute to sensitivities/ allergies from accumulation in the system.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

The wonders of Google ... two clicks and ...

Green Tripe Analysis
Protein 13.33%	
Fat 12.75%	
Crude Fiber 2.99%	
Moisture 72.24%	
Calcium 0.1%	
Phosphorous 0.13%	
Lactic Acid Bacteria 2,900,000 gm
pH 6.84
Ash 1.25%
Calories 424 cal / cup
Iron 126.4 mg/kg 
Potassium 0.14% 
Manganese 25.7 mg/kg 
Zinc 23.11 mg/kg 
Selenium 0.31 mg/kg

And mine love ice cream too! So much so that I made a batch of dog-friendly ice cream, and they get a tiny bit as a hot-day treat. I still have some in the freezer, which tells you all you need to know about the frequency of hot days last year!

ETA I find the USDA site extremely useful for comparing the nutritional values of different meats etc - like CM I did a complex and complete spreadsheet ... and then, also like CM, gradually realised that a few basic rules on balancing bone, meat and offal, plus variety and weighing my dogs regularly, covered all the bases!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

CM, I might have been wrong about it being a TOTW product. It was with the rest of the TOTW food and it does say ,"A taste of the Wild". on the label. But the name of the product is tripett. Is this a good source of tripe? It is what I can find...what do you think T ?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Carley's Mom said:


> CM, I might have been wrong about it being a TOTW product. It was with the rest of the TOTW food and it does say ,"A taste of the Wild". on the label. But the name of the product is tripett. Is this a good source of tripe? It is what I can find...what do you think T ?


Tripett is an entirely different brand from Taste of the Wild.Tripett. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/tripett-dog-food/. And, frankly, I find it far superior to anything made by Diamond, the company who makes Taste of the Wild brand.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree the USDA Nutrition Database is extremely helpful, with the problem that it doesn't include "waste". Thankfully it gives the percent waste and we can roughly figure it out from there.

If I had endless money I would buy Zootrition software. *sigh* lol


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

So it is okay then? I got some lamb today.


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## bura4 (Jul 25, 2010)

I was wondering about something and maybe you guys can advise me on that. Igor is doing quite well on raw, except... every once in a while he does get a stomach upset. He will not eat anything then, his stomach is bothering him - he is most likely sick, will eat grass but not vomit. He will eat bones then, but not very keen. The only thing that I can have him eat is cooked/braised meat/liver etc. I am wondering if it is ok if I move to cooked meat with vegetables fed a.m. and raw bones p.m. I feed him lamb, pork, deer, and other meats he can tolerate (I know this by the fact that his ears have been clear for the past few months) and I add probiotics to his food. His liver values are slightly elevated but according to vets I spoke with it is nothing to worry about. Any ideas??


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

My dogs get cooked mixed mince and offal for one meal, then a meal of raw tripe, then one of raw chicken wings, with occasional eggs or fish depending on what I remember to defrost, and they are thriving. Can you link the upset stomach to anything in particular - liver can be very relaxing, as I know to my cost! Or a particular meat - perhaps one that is higher in fat than usual, or one he simply can't tolerate as well? But if he does well on cooked meat and veg at one meal, and raw meaty bones at the other, then I would go for that. Sophy is not keen on raw mince, or raw fish, or raw offal - but loves them once they have been cooked. I go with what works for her!


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