# Family Affair



## RylieJames

Anyone get a poodle from Standard Affair? Their website is: Red & White Standard Poodles for Sale from Family Affair Standards. I know they have a large kennel, but they seem to take very good care of their pets. And they claim to health test their sires and dams.

I know they likely don't produce top show dogs, but they will at least consider selling to a "newbie" like me and it would be a place to start. At this point, I'm mainly concerned about health and temperament.

Opinions of or experience with them is very much welcomed as it would help me make a decision.

Thanks in advanced!


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## zooeysmom

I think any show breeder will sell to a newbie, if they know they are willing to learn and give the puppy a great home!


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## RylieJames

zooeysmom said:


> I think any show breeder will sell to a newbie, if they know they are willing to learn and give the puppy a great home!


Sorry--newbie to breeding not owning. I should have been more specific in my initial posts--it's my fault for assuming everyone on here had read and remembered my previous posts! 

I'm looking to breed poodles and want full registration. All the show breeders in my area have turned me down because I don't have a proven track record yet. (Don't even get me started on that... I went off on one breeder who was particularly condescending in to me and asked her if she would prefer me to go to a puppy mill where you can get full registration for any dog and then "prove myself" by breeding more mill dogs--would that satisfy her then?!). Don't get me wrong--some breeders are really wonderful and helpful. But some... arg! That's why I'm so happy to find Family Affair where they would be willing to consider selling me a pup with full registration (and they're only 9 hours away!). 

There is one good breeder that was recommended to me that is about 20 hours away (driving) and I might consider that. But I don't like the idea of flying a puppy and 20 hours is a long drive with a young puppy. So, I'm trying to find breeders closer that are still willing to sell a breeding pup to a newbie breeder.


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## CharismaticMillie

Reading her response, I think she realized you meant newbie to showing.  At least I know I understood, and I haven't read your past posts. 

BTW- no responsible breeder will sell to you on full registration without you either having experience showing or proving that you've done extensive research on and understand the requirements involve in showing and breeding a standard poodle and being willing to remain on a co-ownership until the championship and health testing obligations have been met.

As far as Family Affair standards, I'd do a search as the kennel has been discussed quite a bit in the forum.

Which breeders have you already contacted? Is it possible there is something about your approach that is turning them off? Many show breeders are willing to sell to a newbie as long as they have done their research, understand what showing takes, and their breeding interests are in line with the ethics of the breeder.


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## RylieJames

I've had a breeder tell me that she only sells to people who have already finished a standard poodle. And it had to be a standard--not a mini or a toy. Because standards are oh so different from any other dog--even the other sized poodles. And unless you've proven yourself with a standard poodle, then you are by no means qualified--nor will you ever be--to own a show poodle. *rolls eyes*

Many breeders--who were nicer than the above mentioned breeder--just tell me that they only sell to people with experience. No exceptions. Doesn't matter that I've owned poodles in the past (and currently do). Doesn't matter that I have mentors--experienced show groomer and an experienced show trainer--to help me. Doesn't matter. I start to think that they just don't want to let anyone new into the club. It creates more competition for them. 

And just for the record--not all breeders are like that. Some have been very helpful in this process! 

Anyway, back to the point of this thread. I spoke with one of the owners of Family Affair and she was explaining that they imported a poodle from Europe to help create diversity in their lines and if I wanted a dog from that line with full registration it would be $5000, compared to $2500 for one of their "regular" lines. Anyone know about importing from Europe? Do they have more diverse lines with less genetic problems over there? I understand diversity is important with the history of line breeding and inbreeding, but is it worth it to start with a $5000 poodle--is it really that much better for the line? Or is it all a bunch of hooey to get more money for the pups?


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## CharismaticMillie

RylieJames said:


> I've had a breeder tell me that she only sells to people who have already finished a standard poodle. And it had to be a standard--not a mini or a toy. Because standards are oh so different from any other dog--even the other sized poodles. And unless you've proven yourself with a standard poodle, then you are by no means qualified--nor will you ever be--to own a show poodle. *rolls eyes*
> 
> Many breeders--who were nicer than the above mentioned breeder--just tell me that they only sell to people with experience. No exceptions. Doesn't matter that I've owned poodles in the past (and currently do). Doesn't matter that I have mentors--experienced show groomer and an experienced show trainer--to help me. Doesn't matter. I start to think that they just don't want to let anyone new into the club. It creates more competition for them.
> 
> And just for the record--not all breeders are like that. Some have been very helpful in this process!
> 
> Anyway, back to the point of this thread. I spoke with one of the owners of Family Affair and she was explaining that they imported a poodle from Europe to help create diversity in their lines and if I wanted a dog from that line with full registration it would be $5000, compared to $2500 for one of their "regular" lines. Anyone know about importing from Europe? Do they have more diverse lines with less genetic problems over there? I understand diversity is important with the history of line breeding and inbreeding, but is it worth it to start with a $5000 poodle--is it really that much better for the line? Or is it all a bunch of hooey to get more money for the pups?


The fact that a dog is from Europe does not mean that the dog has any more genetic diversity than a dog here in the states. Have they had VGL Diversity testing done on the dog through UC Davis? If so, ask to see the results. If you want, you can email the results to me, and I can help you understand them. Without VGL Genetic Diversity testing, there is no way to know if a dog possesses good genetic diversity or if the dog is genetically different from any other dog in the states. Many people have run into health issues by thinking that dogs they imported were genetically unusual, when they were not. 

And, OMG, who charges $5,000 for a puppy?

And, if you want to show, I assume you'd like to have some success. And since you want to breed, you probably want to start with a good example of the breed, right? In both of those cases, I think that a breeder who shows their dogs would be a better fit for you. You will probably find that a smaller show breeder is more willing to take a chance on a newbie than a very large show kennel.


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## sidewinder

I don't think it's likely you will find a breeder of quality dogs of any breed who will sell a bitch with full registration to a person with no experience. You need to find a mentor, and you need to start with a DOG not a bitch. Get some show experience, prove that you are not going to be another BYB, and then go shopping for a bitch. People who really care about the future of their breed are very protective about where their puppies go. 

There is just no excuse for breeding anything but the best dogs out there. It is very difficult to "breed up" if you buy a poor quality bitch to start with. It could take several generations of breeding to good dogs (if you can talk someone with a really good dog to breed to your poor quality bitch) to get something that is worth showing and breeding. It's actually a faster track to start with a male and learn to show and prove you are serious.


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## peppersb

I agree that you need a mentor -- someone who can help you every step of the way. 

Many of the smaller breeders like to have their dogs living in the house with them and there is only so much room. If you could find an experienced breeder that you like, maybe you could co-own a dog with them? The dog could live with you, and you could work together in showing, making breeding decisions, and sharing costs and revenues. It would be important to find someone who shares your values. Also important to have a clear written agreement that spells out each person's responsibilities.

With regard to importing a dog, I agree with CM that an imported dog is not necessarily more diverse. Look at the pedigree as well as the VGL certificate (if there is one). Also, it may be harder to know what you are getting in terms of structure, health and temperament if you are importing. I think I would prefer to start with a locally bred dog (or bitch) from a breeder I know is breeding the kinds of poodles that I would want to own and breed.

Best of luck to you.


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## RylieJames

I was just asking about the quality of someone's pups and now y'all are trying to make me defend my decisions. Some say start with only the best, others say start with what you can get and work your way up. It seems like everyone has a different opinion of the "right" way to do things. I'm tired of people being so judgmental. 

Its not the first time someone on here has told me to "just find a mentor." The problem is that there are no breeders in my area willing to mentor me. I found only one standard poodle breeder within reasonable distance of where I live and reached out to her. Her reply was so hurtful it made me cry. She was not willing to talk to me or give me any advice on who else I could possibly speak to in the area. 

So for some of you that were able to find a mentor--that's awesome for you and I'm sure it made things much easier. But I can't find someone near me. Now there are a few breeders on here who have given me some helpful advice and have been wonderful--I have nothing bad to say about them. And there was a breeder I found in NY (not through this form) who has been really nice and helpful too. But I've not been able to find anyone near me to be my mentor.

So, I found an experienced trainer. She has worked with show dogs in the past and trains for handling in the ring. She has been working with me and Bentley (my 8 month spoo). I also found a groomer who has 25+ years experience grooming show dogs (including but not limited to standard poodles).

As I said in the beginning, I just came here for some feedback on Family Affair, and I appreciate those of you who gave me some helpful information.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Well, I was going to respond, but you clearly are not going to like my response. So...have a great weekend!


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## RylieJames

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Well, I was going to respond, but you clearly are not going to like my response. So...have a great weekend!


Why be so rude? I really admired you on here. Why do you have to be like that? I'm just trying to do the best I can with the lack of help I have. This forum is my source of advice because I have no in-person mentor helping me. 

I'm tired of everyone telling me to get help but then WHEN I ASK FOR HELP PEOPLE SHUT ME DOWN or tell me to ask someone else. The answer always seems to be to get a mentor or help or something. But those exact people telling me that are unwilling or unable to help me themselves.


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## Mysticrealm

Get a quality show dog from a quality show breeder, co-owning is a way to get your foot in the door with a nice dog. Once you get it shown to it's championship and built a good relation with your breeder, they may very well help you with getting the dog's health testing done and then breeding.
Don't go in saying 'I want to be a breeder!' go in looking to buy a nice show prospect, then work from there.


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## zooeysmom

RylieJames, I'm sorry your feelings got hurt. I think if you want to get into showing and breeding, you need to make sure you have the thick skin for it. You can't let one bad experience turn you off to looking for another mentor. There are nice ones out there, perhaps more of a distance than the rude one, but I would encourage you to keep looking. Take the initiative and look up the next poodle show and attend and talk to breeders. I don't think anyone has been anything but helpful here, but it seems most of us share the same opinion--if you want to do things the right way, you need to start with quality.


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## RylieJames

Mysticrealm said:


> Get a quality show dog from a quality show breeder, co-owning is a way to get your foot in the door with a nice dog. Once you get it shown to it's championship and built a good relation with your breeder, they may very well help you with getting the dog's health testing done and then breeding.
> Don't go in saying 'I want to be a breeder!' go in looking to buy a nice show prospect, then work from there.


I've been asking whether they sell show prospects. I tell them that I'm a long time poodle owner. I say that I'm looking for a dog that I can show and possibly breed at some point in the future.

I've said these things because:
1. Some breeders say they only sell "pets" and no show dogs (I assume they are small scale breeders and keep their show prospects for their breeding program).
2. I want them to know that I really love the breed and am very aware of the upkeep and possible medical problems associated with poodles
3. I saw some breeders will sell show dogs but won't let you breed them, so I was just trying to be specific that I would be interested in breeding the dog after it finishes and if it passes all testing. 

Is there something else or different I should be saying?  I've been very honest and upfront with breeders I've contacted. 

And with regards to who I've contacted--I remember you asked that before--I've just been contacting every breeder in Florida that I can find who looks reputable.


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## Mysticrealm

Are there shows you can go to? It's often best to meet up with people in real life. Have you only been looking close to where you are? You may have to expand where you are looking. I know people flew from the other side of the country for one of my breeder's puppies. 

How do people word it when they say they can sell you a show dog but won't let you breed it? The whole point of showing is to prove breeding stock and the dog would have to be sold on a full contract. Or are they co-owning?
Good breeders are going to be very very picky on where they place full contract puppies. 
Maybe ask if they would be willing to co-own a show prospect with you (just make sure you are 100% comfortable with the breeder and the contract).


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## RylieJames

zooeysmom said:


> RylieJames, I'm sorry your feelings got hurt. I think if you want to get into showing and breeding, you need to make sure you have the thick skin for it. You can't let one bad experience turn you off to looking for another mentor. There are nice ones out there, perhaps more of a distance than the rude one, but I would encourage you to keep looking. Take the initiative and look up the next poodle show and attend and talk to breeders. I don't think anyone has been anything but helpful here, but it seems most of us share the same opinion--if you want to do things the right way, you need to start with quality.


It wasn't just one bad experience though--that was just an example. I've contacted dozens of breeders--looking all the way up into the Carolinas and Virginia. Family Affair was the only one I contacted about getting a show puppy that even entertained the idea. The woman was eager to chat on the phone and tell me all about the different lines she was breeding and what type of dog I was interested in. So far they have been the only breeder I have contacted that has been willing to consider me. That's why I came here today to ask about them. I do have some concerns over their "Canen Bloodline" that I'm going to now look into some more. I may not go with them, so I will continue to look some more.


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## Mysticrealm

If you're willing to buy from canada I could put you in contact with my breeder. Her main dog was #1 all breed in canada for 2014 I believe it was. He has 50 best in shows, and is an canadian Grand champion and american champion. She has sold several show prospects to newbies both co-own and not.


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## RylieJames

Mysticrealm said:


> Are there shows you can go to? It's often best to meet up with people in real life. Have you only been looking close to where you are? You may have to expand where you are looking. I know people flew from the other side of the country for one of my breeder's puppies.
> 
> How do people word it when they say they can sell you a show dog but won't let you breed it? The whole point of showing is to prove breeding stock and the dog would have to be sold on a full contract. Or are they co-owning?
> Good breeders are going to be very very picky on where they place full contract puppies.
> Maybe ask if they would be willing to co-own a show prospect with you (just make sure you are 100% comfortable with the breeder and the contract).


There are a couple shows in November that I plan on attending.

But now, I could be wrong about this--but to co-own don't you have to be near the breeder? Would a breeder co-own a dog with me if I'm 9-10 hour drive away?


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## RylieJames

Mysticrealm said:


> If you're willing to buy from canada I could put you in contact with my breeder. Her main dog was #1 all breed in canada for 2014 I believe it was. He has 50 best in shows, and is an canadian Grand champion and american champion. She has sold several show prospects to newbies both co-own and not.


Thank you so much. I would really appreciate that.


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## Mysticrealm

You don't need to be close to co-own a dog, depends on the breeder if they want to or not


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## zooeysmom

RylieJames said:


> Family Affair was the only one I contacted about getting a show puppy that even entertained the idea. The woman was eager to chat on the phone and tell me all about the different lines she was breeding and what type of dog I was interested in. So far they have been the only breeder I have contacted that has been willing to consider me.


And what does that say about them? They will sell anyone a puppy. They're high volume. I can't say puppy mill because I've never visited them--I just know they sell a lot of puppies.


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## RylieJames

zooeysmom said:


> And what does that say about them? They will sell anyone a puppy. They're high volume. I can't say puppy mill because I've never visited them--I just know they sell a lot of puppies.


They're not a puppy mill. 

But think about this: when reputable breeders turn people like me away, puppy mills are more than happy to take money for a puppy. I at least know enough not to get a ConKC puppy or puppy mill dog. But others may not. Then you have more breeding of unhealthy dogs.


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## patk

poodle owners do tend to direct folks to poodle club of america to help with locating a breeder. but if you've exhausted that resource, here are some other inks that may help you with finding breeders in fl you may have missed:

Florida Poodle Breeders Directory on PoodlesOnline.com

Standard Poodle Breeders, Standard Poodle Puppies, Breeder, Poodles

https://www.poodlevariety.com/breeders.html

going to shows is also supposed to be a very good way of meeting breeders.

try not to be discouraged by the way some of your questions/approaches have been treated. everyone has a different experience. some people hate a breeder others gush over and vice versa. some people forget they went through tough times themselves getting started - or think they toughed it out and so should everyone else. 

if you have a friend who is a professional handler, any possibility you could get into doing that? there are breeders that began as handlers and/or groomers and went on to establish their own breeding program. i think it would help to somehow become more of a known quantity and someone breeders might feel comfortable with having associated with their kennel name.

as for family affair: i believe they are a large-scale breeder. a couple of people here have dogs from them, but they have not been spoken of here (recently, at least) as being a show dog breeder. large scale breeders are eyed with great suspicion by most breeders at pf, especially if you are talking about standards, that tend to have large litters. there's a sense that having several large litters at once may mean dogs are given less attention as individuals - and this would be even more likely with a large scale breeder. you may want to visit their establishment and check it out before going much further.

good luck to you.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I am sorry if my post came off rude. I honestly did not mean it to be. But I was going to post more of the same advice that you have been getting that seems to be upsetting you. If you ever want to breed and be taken seriously, please get a quality dog. And to get one you will need a great mentor and need to co-own most likely with your mentor. If you start off with a less than wonderful dog from a less than well respected breeder, people will not forget, and the only dogs that will be approved to breed to will also probably be less than quality. Start out with a good breeder and a good dog who can finish and it will go a long way to helping you in the years ahead.


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## FireStorm

I'm not a breeder, so I'm not sure if any of this will help, but Hans was sired by a Swedish import and we didn't pay anywhere close to $5000 for him. The puppies from his litter were comparable in price to other puppies from reputable breeders in our area (we are in FL too). It really sounds like a gimmick on the part of the breeder to sell puppies for that much because they are from imported lines.

Also, I know that the breeder we got Hans from (Boshi) does have puppies that have gone to show homes. I don't know if you've talked to Shirley at all (if you already have then never mind) and I don't know the details of her arrangement with the folks that have those puppies (they may be co owned), but they are in our Facebook group, definitely showing and I get the impression they'll be bred when they finish. 

Have you tried approaching breeders you like from the standpoint that you would like to get involved in showing and would be willing to start out by co owning a dog (rather than a bitch)? I know it's not exactly what you want but it might be how you have to start (at least that's what it sounds like). I also think it helps if you mention why you like that particular breeder's dogs, so they don't feel like you'll buy from the first person who will sell to you, but rather that you are being selective in starting your breeding program.


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## lily cd re

I think that much of what FireStorm has suggested to you makes tons of sense. And no I don't think you have to live close to a breeder who wants to co-own with you as long as the breeder and you are able to be on the same page about what is being done with the dog. If you start with a dog rather than a bitch and finish the Ch. on that dog he could be collected if the co-owning breeder wanted to use him for a litter with one of their bitches.

I think it is very common for people who want to breed and show to start with a dog rather than a bitch.

And lastly I would not go to a breeder who doesn't show and finish titles on their dogs to get a foundation dog or bitch.

I wish you luck in finding a great show prospect from a breeder who will be a great mentor and partner for you to learn the ropes with.


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## sidewinder

Is there a Poodle club in Tallahassee, or nearby (Not familiar with Florida geography)? You might think of joining, or at least attending meetings and getting to know a few people. Maybe you can find someone there who will let you go to shows with her. 

I think your main problem is that you come across as a person who wants to breed, not one who loves the breed and thinks showing would be fun. If you want a top foundation bitch, you have to jump thru the hoops. I'm sorry you don't want to hear this. People with experience are trying to help you! 

The show dog community is small and everybody in a given breed knows everybody else, at least by reputation! You get a bad name and it's hard to live it down. We've been trying to give you advice to help you start out right.


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## sidewinder

Oh, I also meant to comment on Family Affair, as you asked. I went and looked at their website. It's a very fancy site. They want to sell dogs. I think you need to look carefully at the section that has to do with health testing. They have lots of very wordy comments on it, but nowhere does it say that they actually do any. They actually make comments that it really isn't necessary and doesn't help that much. There isn't a pic of or comment about a finished AKC champion anywhere, either.


These people don't put a whole lot of their money into the dogs (health testing and showing are expensive) and the dogs live in a kennel. There are LOTS of them. Nice, clean kennel, but a kennel. It's a volume breeder, set up to support the "family". Of course they will sell you a bitch with full papers, that's what they are doing it for, to make money. $5000 for a dog with a European pedigree? Puhleeeeeze! Do your pedigree research, don't buy into this it is a scam to get your money.


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## RylieJames

sidewinder said:


> Is there a Poodle club in Tallahassee, or nearby (Not familiar with Florida geography)? You might think of joining, or at least attending meetings and getting to know a few people. Maybe you can find someone there who will let you go to shows with her.



No, there is no poodle club nearby. 




sidewinder said:


> I think your main problem is that you come across as a person who wants to breed, not one who loves the breed and thinks showing would be fun. If you want a top foundation bitch, you have to jump thru the hoops. I'm sorry you don't want to hear this. People with experience are trying to help you!


But I want to breed. So, are you suggesting I lie or mislead (lie by omission)? I would think it would be worse if I approached breeders making them think I wasn't interested in breeding and then mention it later... they would think I'm being deceitful or have bad intentions. I've always been up front and honest in my communications. And just for the record, I tell every breeder I approach that I am a long term poodle owner, love the breed, and now would like to get a show pup. So if people don't believe me... well I can't force them to. But I certainly don't feel comfortable not being forthcoming with my objectives. I want to be able to be upfront with someone that I may get a pup from. For me, trust is paramount. 

And it's not that I don't want to hear "this." I'm just pointing out the fact that it isn't as simple as the advice that is given here. People tell me to find a mentor to get a puppy from--well I have yet to find one near me. Not for lack of trying as I've already detailed ad nauseam in previous posts.

To relate back to your analogy: It's not that I don't want to "jump through hoops," but it is that I can't even find where the hoops are!


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## RylieJames

sidewinder said:


> Oh, I also meant to comment on Family Affair, as you asked. I went and looked at their website. It's a very fancy site. They want to sell dogs. I think you need to look carefully at the section that has to do with health testing. They have lots of very wordy comments on it, but nowhere does it say that they actually do any. They actually make comments that it really isn't necessary and doesn't help that much. There isn't a pic of or comment about a finished AKC champion anywhere, either.
> 
> 
> These people don't put a whole lot of their money into the dogs (health testing and showing are expensive) and the dogs live in a kennel. There are LOTS of them. Nice, clean kennel, but a kennel. It's a volume breeder, set up to support the "family". Of course they will sell you a bitch with full papers, that's what they are doing it for, to make money. $5000 for a dog with a European pedigree? Puhleeeeeze! Do your pedigree research, don't buy into this it is a scam to get your money.


I spoke with the woman on the phone and she was telling me about the health testing and their health guarantee. 

And thank you for the info on the genetics/pedigree. It didn't sound right to me, but I don't know much about European poodles to judge accordingly.


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## Mysticrealm

RylieJames said:


> No, there is no poodle club nearby.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I want to breed. So, are you suggesting I lie or mislead (lie by omission)? I would think it would be worse if I approached breeders making them think I wasn't interested in breeding and then mention it later... they would think I'm being deceitful or have bad intentions. I've always been up front and honest in my communications. And just for the record, I tell every breeder I approach that I am a long term poodle owner, love the breed, and now would like to get a show pup. So if people don't believe me... well I can't force them to. But I certainly don't feel comfortable not being forthcoming with my objectives. I want to be able to be upfront with someone that I may get a pup from. For me, trust is paramount.


I think what she means is that you need to start off just asking the breeders for a show prospect, tell the breeders that your eventual goal is to learn how to breed but that you currently want to learn all about showing and the breed and how to get a dogs championship, learn about how to breed whelp etc by beign involved with a breeder and her dogs. Then once you have a championed dog and a good relationship with your breeder and established yourself in the breed, THEN you either ask for help either breeding your current animal, or getting another animal to work towards that (depending on how your current one health tests, etc. or if you ended up with a dog to start)


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

RylieJames said:


> I spoke with the woman on the phone and she was telling me about the health testing and their health guarantee.
> 
> And thank you for the info on the genetics/pedigree. It didn't sound right to me, but I don't know much about European poodles to judge accordingly.


There are perfectly wonderful European dogs (I have three). BUT, most go back on at least one side to American dogs. So to get diversity, you have to really study pedigrees and not just buy a dog from Europe so you can use it as bragging rights. The only way one can know if they have gained diversity with their imports is to do the VGL Canine Diversity test offered by UC Davis. And if one is serious about diversity, they will use this testing to help them match up mates based on potential results of future puppies with test breedings.


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## bigpoodleperson

I know that you are having a hard time finding a breeder to work with. Are you coming across to them that you want to work "with" them, or just get a dog to breed from? How long are you willing to wait to breed? Are you willing to wait a few years possibly while you show, finish, create a relationship with the breeder and prove yourself? It comes across that you want to find a dog to breed NOW. Perhaps that is why you are finding it hard to get someone to work with you..?
Why are you so adamant on breeding? What is your goal and plans in your breeding program?


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## RylieJames

bigpoodleperson said:


> I know that you are having a hard time finding a breeder to work with. Are you coming across to them that you want to work "with" them, or just get a dog to breed from? How long are you willing to wait to breed? Are you willing to wait a few years possibly while you show, finish, create a relationship with the breeder and prove yourself? It comes across that you want to find a dog to breed NOW. Perhaps that is why you are finding it hard to get someone to work with you..?
> Why are you so adamant on breeding? What is your goal and plans in your breeding program?


I haven't really even been able to get that far. I start by asking whether they have show prospects available currently or think they may in the near future. I tell them a bit about myself and that I've owned poodles for many years and am now interested in getting a show dog with the possibility of breeding in the future. And sometimes I've even included that I know the poodles have to be at least two years old to pass all the health testing.

I'm looking for a dog now because it can take years before I could be able to breed. They must be at least two years old before their hips can be cleared--so if I get a puppy now, I can't breed it for at least two years. And of course that assumes everything goes well with showing and health clearances.

And I know things don't always go as planned. My girl Bridgett (below) was bought as a show/breeding prospect. But when she was still a puppy, we found out she had a seizure disorder. Since, according to our vet at the time, there was no way to determine whether it was an inheritable trait, we decided not to breed her (also the idea that she could have a seizure while pregnant was also troublesome). So my point is that I know from first hand experience that things don't always go as you planned.

But again, I don't even get to go that far with the breeders because the responses I had gotten was experienced homes only, no exceptions.

However, some people on here have given me some new contacts and ideas on how to find other breeders that may be willing to work with me, and I will see how it goes.


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## Beaches

Co-owning sounds like the perfect way to get into the showing and breeding business.


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## Streetcar

*You DO have a kennel club in Tallahassee.*



RylieJames said:


> No, there is no poodle club nearby.
> 
> --snip--
> To relate back to your analogy: It's not that I don't want to "jump through hoops," but it is that I can't even find where the hoops are!


The Ochlockonee River Kennel Club is an all-breed club that offers an annual conformation show with performance trials in February. This is a big deal and membership is a mere $20 per year. Right there in Tallahassee!
http://www.orkc.com/

If I were in your shoes, I would ask to join this club and immediately if not sooner volunteer for conformation show preparation duties. Get in there and participate and get to know these people and get respected for wanting to learn and give to your breed. People change breeds in their lives. You may meet someone who used to be in Poodles and you will surely meet many people who know great Poodle breeders.

I think as a newbie by demonstrating one's love for one's breed and giving back, and by becoming a real member of the community and fancy, things will fall naturally in place if you are willing to work for it. Because I am serious. No breeder is an island. You will have things happen and need to be a giving part of the community, and then you will have people willing to give to you.


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## Arrowhead Acres

*Spoo puppy search*



PHP:


B




RylieJames said:


> They're not a puppy mill.
> 
> But think about this: when reputable breeders turn people like me away, puppy mills are more than happy to take money for a puppy. I at least know enough not to get a ConKC puppy or puppy mill dog. But others may not. Then you have more breeding of unhealthy dogs.



Hi everyone. This is our first and last post we will ever make on this forum due to the fact we do not have a lot of spare time and people can be very mean and nasty in the name of offering advise or just giving their opinion.We are Family Affair Standards AHH!!!! LOL! Thought o would try to lighten the blow of is trying to post. I guess we will see shortly how well it worked. We have been breeding for 30 years.There are a lot of accusations , pointing fingers , reasons being told for people to stay away from us all over this forum. We have been observing this since 2008 I am pretty sure or very close to that and decided enough is enough !!! We have so many things we could say and point out and give our opinions of but most of the regulars on here have sent us to bed in tears and sadness without us saying a word by us just observing this Forum for almost 10 years now. I hate to see what you regulars will do since we really have posted or made a few statements and made a request or two. We have posted to say only only a couple things.Yes we do want to sell puppies ,no we will not sale to just anyone , we have a 100% take back and rehome policy and we have no left over puppies or sold at a discount because the older they get the more time we spend with them. We do not lie ,cheat mislead ,treat our puppies bad or our adults and we do hours on top of hours doing pedigree research. We have Canen puppies and we are so proud and honored to have them and some of these DO NOT GO back to American lines. The Canen lines are WELL known for their HEALTH and :adore:temperament and are so beautifully athletic. The parents of both our Canen studs are Fully tested and passed with flying colors. Our request if you are on this forum looking for a puppy please do not just take someone's negative words from this forum visit our website Family Affair Standards and take your TIME to read it. Our website is not just FANCY as quoted above it is full of information and very transparent. If you do not like something you read ask us and if you are not happy with how we do things we will recommend some very good breeders that are not on this Forum picking a part people ,their dogs ,their lives ,and their breeding programs. We wish you the very best if luck in finding the perfect pup for you and/ or your family. All I have to say on Poodle Forum. Thank you for allowing us to post. I hope most of you will learn to be more kind


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## Arrowhead Acres

RylieJames said:


> They're not a puppy mill.
> 
> But think about this: when reputable breeders turn people like me away, puppy mills are more than happy to take money for a puppy. I at least know enough not to get a ConKC puppy or puppy mill dog. But others may not. Then you have more breeding of unhealthy dogs.



Hi everyone. This is our first and last post we will ever make on this forum due to the fact we do not have a lot of spare time and people can be very mean and nasty in the name of offering advise or just giving their opinion.We are Family Affair Standards AHH!!!! LOL! Thought o would try to lighten the blow of is trying to post. I guess we will see shortly how well it worked. We have been breeding for 30 years.There are a lot of accusations , pointing fingers , reasons being told for people to stay away from us all over this forum. We have been observing this since 2008 I am pretty sure or very close to that and decided enough is enough !!! We have so many things we could say and point out and give our opinions of but most of the regulars on here have sent us to bed in tears and sadness without us saying a word by us just observing this Forum for almost 10 years now. I hate to see what you regulars will do since we really have posted or made a few statements and made a request or two. We have posted to say only only a couple things.Yes we do want to sell puppies ,no we will not sale to just anyone , we have a 100% take back and rehome policy and we have no left over puppies or sold at a discount because the older they get the more time we spend with them. We do not lie ,cheat mislead ,treat our puppies bad or our adults and we do hours on top of hours doing pedigree research. We have Canen puppies and we are so proud and honored to have them and some of these DO NOT GO back to American lines. The Canen lines are WELL known for their HEALTH and temperament and are so beautifully athletic. The parents of both our Canen studs are Fully tested and passed with flying colors. Our request if you are on this forum looking for a puppy please do not just take someone's negative words from this forum visit our website Family Affair Standards and take your TIME to read it. Our website is not just FANCY as quoted above it is full of information and very transparent. If you do not like something you read ask us and if you are not happy with how we do things we will recommend some very good breeders that are not on this Forum picking a part people ,their dogs ,their lives ,and their breeding programs. We wish you the very best if luck in finding the perfect pup for you and/ or your family. All I have to say on Poodle Forum. Thank you for allowing us to post. I hope most of you will learn to be more kind


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## hunny518

Your going to gain experience by going to the dog shows. Start talking to the breeders there (but wait until they are done showing, it's a very stressful time for us before ring time). Keep showing your face and become familiar and they will start asking you to help with little things like: holding dogs leads for them while they are getting other dogs sprayed up or going into ring, holding supplies like groom bag, hairspray, comb etc. as you start proving your dedication, they will start giving information and may consider selling you a prospect in an upcoming litter. If you want to be an ethical breeder, you need to prove yourself to other ethical breeders. A huge red flag to me is any breeder willing to sell full registration to someone who hasn't proven it. Who cares if the other breeders are snobby and hesitant. They expect you to start the same way they did.. By proving themselves. Breeding good quality dogs in an ethical way is very time consuming and expensive, why should they hand over one of their prized dogs to someone who has only their "word" to give. I just bred my first litter. My breeder is a wonderful man and a very dedicated mentor. I am so thankful for that, and wouldn't have it any other way


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## smihaloff

sidewinder said:


> Oh, I also meant to comment on Family Affair, as you asked. I went and looked at their website. It's a very fancy site. They want to sell dogs. I think you need to look carefully at the section that has to do with health testing. They have lots of very wordy comments on it, but nowhere does it say that they actually do any. They actually make comments that it really isn't necessary and doesn't help that much. There isn't a pic of or comment about a finished AKC champion anywhere, either.
> 
> 
> These people don't put a whole lot of their money into the dogs (health testing and showing are expensive) and the dogs live in a kennel. There are LOTS of them. Nice, clean kennel, but a kennel. It's a volume breeder, set up to support the "family". Of course they will sell you a bitch with full papers, that's what they are doing it for, to make money. $5000 for a dog with a European pedigree? Puhleeeeeze! Do your pedigree research, don't buy into this it is a scam to get your money.


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## smihaloff

I put a deposit on a Apricot Standard Poodle. I gave Family Affair the deposit. I told them I would be down, made appointment and drove 4 hours to their puppy mill. I got their they had sold the puppy I had put my deposit on. They tired to sell me anything else. They told me no refunds on deposit but they would put me on a list for the next liter. I followed up but they never did. They have at least 100 poodles. This a large scale puppy business, foe some people it would resemble a puppy mill. I would look to another breeder I did find a fantastic breeder named Ginger Wade in Chesapeake VA! I have a beautiful Apricot Standard Poodle!


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## Raindrops

smihaloff said:


> I put a deposit on a Apricot Standard Poodle. I gave Family Affair the deposit. I told them I would be down, made appointment and drove 4 hours to their puppy mill. I got their they had sold the puppy I had put my deposit on. They tired to sell me anything else. They told me no refunds on deposit but they would put me on a list for the next liter. I followed up but they never did. They have at least 100 poodles. This a large scale puppy business, foe some people it would resemble a puppy mill. I would look to another breeder I did find a fantastic breeder named Ginger Wade in Chesapeake VA! I have a beautiful Apricot Standard Poodle!


So sorry you had such a rough experience. Thank you for sharing. Glad you found a great puppy!


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