# Anyone had any experience with or have any knowledge/thoughts about PuppyFind.com?



## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Did you not find any toy breeders in Canada? How about Julie Paulin- Heenan of Enchantment? Enchantment Poodles, Our Nursery

Or did you check this site Toy, Miniature and Standard Poodle Breeders in Canada (to advertise you must produce proof of health testing)

Or check out Poodle Variety for breeders in the US Poodle Variety

I have no experience with Puppyfind, but would be hesitant to purchase a toy poodle from a website that condones millers.


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

TLP said:


> Did you not find any toy breeders in Canada? How about Julie Paulin- Heenan of Enchantment? Enchantment Poodles, Our Nursery
> 
> Or did you check this site Toy, Miniature and Standard Poodle Breeders in Canada (to advertise you must produce proof of health testing)
> 
> ...


I'm looking into all possible options. I will be contacting all the recommended canadian breeders and see what they have and will be checking out all the links you've provided. Thanks by the way for your recommendation and sharing your thoughts. 

It just so happens I bumped into puppyfind.com about a week ago and found so many options! I used all the knowledge accumulated from this forum and research online to sift out all the bad breeders. I just wanted to know if anyone had any experience or have any thoughts about them. 

In the end, I will sort though all the options available from Canadian breeders, puppyfind.com, local breeders and all other websites and make a decision.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would not buy online and have a puppy shipped, unless it was from an exceptional breeder, whom I had either visited myself or had a knowledgeable friend visit. No one who cares about the pups they breed is going to ship them to someone they have never met, without considerable research, taking up of references, etc, etc. If all they are interested in is your CC number, I would run a mile. Many dealers are getting very clever at posing as breeders of "just one or two litters", using different cell phone numbers, relatives addresses, etc, etc - without seeing the premises, and seeing the puppies with their mother, you run a high risk of buying from a puppy mill. 

Increasingly pups are being imported from countries where conditions are even worse than domestic puppy farms - with considerable health risks to the pups themselves and to dogs and people they come into contact with.

Using the internet to find pups close enough to visit is, of coourse, another matter (but avoid anyone who offers to meet you haf way and hand the pup over in a car park!).

I can absolutely understand the urge to find a puppy quickly, once you have made up your mind that you are in a position to do so, but it really is worth taking plenty of time over it. As a very minimum you want to see the puppy with its mother, and know that both parents are healthy and have passed basic tests.


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

fjm said:


> I would not buy online and have a puppy shipped, unless it was from an exceptional breeder, whom I had either visited myself or had a knowledgeable friend visit. No one who cares about the pups they breed is going to ship them to someone they have never met, without considerable research, taking up of references, etc, etc. If all they are interested in is your CC number, I would run a mile. Many dealers are getting very clever at posing as breeders of "just one or two litters", using different cell phone numbers, relatives addresses, etc, etc - without seeing the premises, and seeing the puppies with their mother, you run a high risk of buying from a puppy mill.
> 
> Increasingly pups are being imported from countries where conditions are even worse than domestic puppy farms - with considerable health risks to the pups themselves and to dogs and people they come into contact with.
> 
> ...


I guess it is easy to pose a breeder of one or two litters, but a portion of the breeders on puppyfind.com have full websites with their profiles and history. I guess that can be faked too but it would be a lot of work. 

I can see it be risky. I'm not sure about "shipping" pups too. Will they be taken care of during the flight?? I'm worried they might be stuck in a cage for too many hours, pooing and peeing, and nothing to eat =S


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Before you buy online, do yourself a favor and read the sad tale of Pinky and Charlie. Just do a Forum search for those two names, and read all of Pinky's posts.

Here's just two to get you started: 

Charlie's in the hospital

Charlie Died


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## all that jazz (Feb 6, 2011)

When I was first looking for a mini I went online and found a website that had many, many poodles. I don't remember which website it was. Anyway in my compulsive manner I checked many places on the web and surprisingly found that a picture of one on the poodle website was also on a respectable known breeder's site. I then realized that the pictures on the poodle site may have been stolen and did not represent the mini being advertised. I was given a picture of the sire and dam of a particular puppy when I asked for it, but I was not allowed to speak to the breeder. In fact, when I asked for the telephone number or email of the actual breeder, they never returned my phone call or email. That was definitely suspicious. 
Now having bought two from respectable breeders, who I met in their homes, saw how they were raising their dogs, met the dam or dam and sire, it really it would have been the worst decision to go with the internet site. I was also given a lot of educational info from these breeders, have been able to contact them for questions or problems and they really care about their dogs. In addition, if something happened to me and my family could not take them, the breeders by contract would take them back. (This will never happen but it is nice to have that safety net for the dogs' sake.) I had to drive two and three and a half hours to get my babies, but they were so worth it! Good luck!


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

all that jazz said:


> When I was first looking for a mini I went online and found a website that had many, many poodles. I don't remember which website it was. Anyway in my compulsive manner I checked many places on the web and surprisingly found that a picture of one on the poodle website was also on a respectable known breeder's site. I then realized that the pictures on the poodle site may have been stolen and did not represent the mini being advertised. I was given a picture of the sire and dam of a particular puppy when I asked for it, but I was not allowed to speak to the breeder. In fact, when I asked for the telephone number or email of the actual breeder, they never returned my phone call or email. That was definitely suspicious.
> Now having bought two from respectable breeders, who I met in their homes, saw how they were raising their dogs, met the dam or dam and sire, it really it would have been the worst decision to go with the internet site. I was also given a lot of educational info from these breeders, have been able to contact them for questions or problems and they really care about their dogs. In addition, if something happened to me and my family could not take them, the breeders by contract would take them back. (This will never happen but it is nice to have that safety net for the dogs' sake.) I had to drive two and three and a half hours to get my babies, but they were so worth it! Good luck!


I think I may have encountered a similar site that is run by Pure Breeders, a broker in USA. They create many websites to make it seem like the pups are local when they are in fact shipped from another state or province. For example, I live in vancouver and they created this website Top Poodle Breeders - Vancouver Poodle Breeders which in the beginning made me think it is local. I simply sent one message to inquiry about a pup and IMMEDIATELY they responded and then called me. I never picked up. Then the keep e-mailing and calling for the next few days. So aggressive. After reading about them, I realized they are a broker, they had many complaints on bbb.org. But they are just a middle man who's goal is to sell you the pup though whatever means, they don't seem knowledgeable about the pup and do not let you contact the breeder. Thus, I avoided this website. Puppyfind.com however, you contact the breeder directly and you can research about the breeder though their description, personal website, ratings and testimonials, although they can all be faked if they are true scammers.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Honestly, if it were me, I would RUN in another direction! You may find cheaper puppies on these sites, but you will most likely pay for it later exponentially in vet bills and heartache! This is going to be a member of your family for the next 12-20 years. I would want to originally find a reputable breeder, with health tested parents, and pay a bit more. Over the course of this dogs life it really doesn't amount to much. If cost isn't the reason for looking for your puppy on these sites, maybe it is convenience or not having to wait for a puppy. Again so worth the extra effort to find a breeder who backs what they sell, and possibly drive a ways or wait awhile.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Have you contacted all the recommended breeders yet? I would, once again, suggest you to contact them FIRST. Talk to them. Get a feeling of what the communication between a potential buyer and good breeders should look like. Then, if you still think that you should contact other "breeders", you can definitely do so. 

I think new puppy buyers need a benchmark to gauge how good breeders and BYB/puppy mills are different from each other. Start from the higher standard ones. Even if you later find out you can't afford one of their puppies, it's okay. You will then know puppies of that kind of quality would cost about $xx and then you won't fall for a puppy that is less socialized, not health tested, not groomed … for say, $200 less. 

Another reason you should go to the recommended reputable breeders first is that, you will get to actually see how those health test results/certificates look like. Otherwise how are you going to tell the piece of paper showed by one of the guys on puppyfind.com is not legitimate? 

Meeting and talking to reputable breeders is a learning process. I have talked/met over 120 breeders (of different breeds, dogs and cats) and I have learned a lot. Not every single one of them made money out of me (phew, I only have one poodle so far) but I have made some good friends and learned a lot. Not everyone only talk to people they can earn money from. If you show them that you really want to learn, many of them are willing to share what they know with you. Responsible breeders LOVE the breed and are delighted to know there is someone out there who sincerely wants to know more about their chosen breed(s).


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Please don't buy online and sight unseen. Good website doesn't mean anything. Visit the breeder, talk in person with them, see the puppy in its environment and do all these after you review the health cert and the pedigree of the pups. 

A girl here on PF (I forget her name) bought a toy poodle online (she paid toy poodle price but got a mix Pomeranian-something instead). The breeder told her that the puppy is 8 weeks old but the puppy looked like she is at most 5 weeks therefore not yet weaned from its mother. Sure enough, it died after a week of purchase after she has paid some medical bills on top of paying the pups. I believe she named the puppy, Periwinkle.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Yeah it's tough to have to be so careful because wouldn't it be nice if you could trust people to do or have what they advertise? But sadly you have to be very, very careful, as many people on this forum have experienced personally. Best to go with a breeder that is open and available to you and has nothing to hide; you might have to go on a waiting list for a while but it's worth it in the end. Oh and I too would worry a little about shipping a toy poodle puppy unless by a very experienced breeder because they are so little, there is the low blood sugar worry, and also keeping such a tiny little body warm or cool enough on the trip.


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> Honestly, if it were me, I would RUN in another direction! You may find cheaper puppies on these sites, but you will most likely pay for it later exponentially in vet bills and heartache! This is going to be a member of your family for the next 12-20 years. I would want to originally find a reputable breeder, with health tested parents, and pay a bit more. Over the course of this dogs life it really doesn't amount to much. If cost isn't the reason for looking for your puppy on these sites, maybe it is convenience or not having to wait for a puppy. Again so worth the extra effort to find a breeder who backs what they sell, and possibly drive a ways or wait awhile.


The reason for me looking online is not exactly for a lower price. The lower price is a bonus =D. It's just that I'm a tech person and am use to buying
things online for years. I find that online is more convenient conduct research fast and easy, than the traditional method of calling someone and asking for information. Buying online is not scary to me because I know I can get my money back from the buyer, credit card company or paypal. With my online buying experience, I generally know what to look for in terms of whether the seller is legit or not. But when it comes to buying dogs, it could be completely different I guess.



schnauzerpoodle said:


> Have you contacted all the recommended breeders yet? I would, once again, suggest you to contact them FIRST. Talk to them. Get a feeling of what the communication between a potential buyer and good breeders should look like. Then, if you still think that you should contact other "breeders", you can definitely do so.
> 
> I think new puppy buyers need a benchmark to gauge how good breeders and BYB/puppy mills are different from each other. Start from the higher standard ones. Even if you later find out you can't afford one of their puppies, it's okay. You will then know puppies of that kind of quality would cost about $xx and then you won't fall for a puppy that is less socialized, not health tested, not groomed … for say, $200 less.
> 
> ...


You got excellent points there. Gauging the differences between breeders is a very good idea. I kind of started doing that online (reading different profiles) and in person (visiting one breeder who I knew I wasn't going to buy from). Do you think that real poodle lovers won't give you any sort of sales pitch?



Joelly said:


> Please don't buy online and sight unseen. Good website doesn't mean anything. Visit the breeder, talk in person with them, see the puppy in its environment and do all these after you review the health cert and the pedigree of the pups.
> 
> A girl here on PF (I forget her name) bought a toy poodle online (she paid toy poodle price but got a mix Pomeranian-something instead). The breeder told her that the puppy is 8 weeks old but the puppy looked like she is at most 5 weeks therefore not yet weaned from its mother. Sure enough, it died after a week of purchase after she has paid some medical bills on top of paying the pups. I believe she named the puppy, Periwinkle.


That's terrible. I gotta make 100% sure that this doesn't happen to me. Well, as mentioned above, I am a tech person who buys tons of things online and can kind of sense a good seller from a bad seller. But buying dogs may be a different story.



Indiana said:


> Yeah it's tough to have to be so careful because wouldn't it be nice if you could trust people to do or have what they advertise? But sadly you have to be very, very careful, as many people on this forum have experienced personally. Best to go with a breeder that is open and available to you and has nothing to hide; you might have to go on a waiting list for a while but it's worth it in the end. Oh and I too would worry a little about shipping a toy poodle puppy unless by a very experienced breeder because they are so little, there is the low blood sugar worry, and also keeping such a tiny little body warm or cool enough on the trip.


I would love to buy from a reputable breeder whom I can see and meet in person but that option isn't available where I live =( Flying to another state or province to get a puppy is just too expensive.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I buy almost everything on line--clothes, household items, dog food, etc. But I would NEVER buy a dog on line. Please don't do it! There is just too much risk.

One of my neighbors--a pretty savvy person--bought a puppy online. She was quite convinced that she was dealing with a good breeder. The puppy arrived by plane and was terrified of loud sounds for a long time after the plane ride. But that was the least of the problems. Before the pup was a year old, he was diagnosed with a progressive neurological disease. My neighbors spent thousands of dollars on vet bills, and the dog gradually got worse and had to be euthanized when he was 3 years old. My neighbor called the breeder, thinking that they might want to know and take this into account in their breeding program. The breeder had absolutely no interest in hearing about it. My neighbor says that the breeder's reaction made her think that she was probably dealing with a puppy mill.

If you let us know where you are, some people may be able to recommend a breeder that is close enough for you to visit.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

PoodleNoodle said:


> Do you think that real poodle lovers won't give you any sort of sales pitch?


Yes. I haven't met one responsible and reputable breeder (poodles of all 3 varieties and other breeds too) that:

1. urged me to send my deposit RIGHT AWAY because s/he only had one puppy left OR
2. convinced me to buy one of his/her puppies after I told her that I couldn't get time off work that month by telling me that the puppy could stay with her until I was ready to take him home OR
3. asked me to send my deposit before scanning and emailing me all the paperwork I asked for 

They encouraged me to ask questions. They asked for references and offered references (their vets, past puppy buyers, etc.). They listened to me talk about my late dogs/pets. They asked to see pictures/videos of my other pets. Some even asked if they could refer me to a breeder closer to me so that I could go see puppies. 

I know how those sales pitch sound like because I have also talked to some BYBs so yes, I can tell whether they care about the welfare of their puppies or the money in my bank account.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I too do most of my buying online - and I have even found breeders online that I have then gone on to purchase puppies from, after long telephone and email conversations and visits in person. But buying a puppy is very different to buying clothes or books or electrical goods - if those are faulty, you can chase to get your money back, and either return the goods or chuck them in the bin. You may be wary about the employment conditions of the people involved in producing the goods you buy (especially given the recent devastating accidents in Pakistan), but can probably ease your conscience by feeling that at least they are earning a living, and have some choice about which jobs they take. Buying from a puppy mill ensures the breeding dogs there continue to be used as puppy producing machines, often in appalling conditions. It ensures puppies continue to be bred in huge numbers, and sold to anyone prepared to pay the asking price - with the result that more and more of them end up in rescue. 

Would you be happy to return a puppy after caring for it and loving it for weeks? To have it euthanised before the vet bills begin to mount up? To abandon it to a rescue because its early experiences mean that it cannot be reliably house trained, or is so fearful that it bites strange dogs and children? When you buy a puppy you are - like it or not - taking on a responsibility for a living, sentient creature for the next dozen or so years, and also deciding whether to support a breeder who works to give all the dogs in their care the best life possible, or one that treats them as machines, to be bred to exhaustion for maximum profit. Buying a dog is not the same as buying a fridge or a pair of shoes, where the worst that can happen is that you lose your money - it's worth taking the time to educate yourself in the realities of puppy mills, online puppy dealers, imported puppies, and all the scams designed to convince you that the fluffy little bundle in the photo is the product of a loving home and not a miserable cage in a dark outbuilding somewhere at the back of beyond...


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

fjm said:


> I too do most of my buying online - and I have even found breeders online that I have then gone on to purchase puppies from, after long telephone and email conversations and visits in person. But buying a puppy is very different to buying clothes or books or electrical goods - if those are faulty, you can chase to get your money back, and either return the goods or chuck them in the bin. You may be wary about the employment conditions of the people involved in producing the goods you buy (especially given the recent devastating accidents in Pakistan), but can probably ease your conscience by feeling that at least they are earning a living, and have some choice about which jobs they take. Buying from a puppy mill ensures the breeding dogs there continue to be used as puppy producing machines, often in appalling conditions. It ensures puppies continue to be bred in huge numbers, and sold to anyone prepared to pay the asking price - with the result that more and more of them end up in rescue.
> 
> Would you be happy to return a puppy after caring for it and loving it for weeks? To have it euthanised before the vet bills begin to mount up? To abandon it to a rescue because its early experiences mean that it cannot be reliably house trained, or is so fearful that it bites strange dogs and children? When you buy a puppy you are - like it or not - taking on a responsibility for a living, sentient creature for the next dozen or so years, and also deciding whether to support a breeder who works to give all the dogs in their care the best life possible, or one that treats them as machines, to be bred to exhaustion for maximum profit. Buying a dog is not the same as buying a fridge or a pair of shoes, where the worst that can happen is that you lose your money - it's worth taking the time to educate yourself in the realities of puppy mills, online puppy dealers, imported puppies, and all the scams designed to convince you that the fluffy little bundle in the photo is the product of a loving home and not a miserable cage in a dark outbuilding somewhere at the back of beyond...


Okay, you've all convinced me not to buy online. However, if I do purchase from a PF recommended reputable breeder from another province, I won't be able to see the pups in person. Is that a big risk? Or is asking the right questions and requesting pictures will be sufficient you think?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

PoodleNoodle said:


> Okay, you've all convinced me not to buy online. However, if I do purchase from a PF recommended reputable breeder from another province, I won't be able to see the pups in person. Is that a big risk? Or is asking the right questions and requesting pictures will be sufficient you think?


Where do you live? Are you so isolated that there are no poodle breeders within driving distance? This is a puppy that will be your companion for the next 15 years. I can't imagine buying a puppy without going to see the puppy, the mother, the breeder, and the place where the puppy was raised. If you knew someone who knew the breeder personally and knew enough about poodles to evaluate the way the puppies were raised, then maybe.


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

peppersb said:


> Where do you live? Are you so isolated that there are no poodle breeders within driving distance? This is a puppy that will be your companion for the next 15 years. I can't imagine buying a puppy without going to see the puppy, the mother, the breeder, and the place where the puppy was raised. If you knew someone who knew the breeder personally and knew enough about poodles to evaluate the way the puppies were raised, then maybe.


I live in Vancouver. From researching online so far and recommendations from PF, there aren't any reputable toy poodle breeders in BC. Most recommended reputable breeders are from Alberta or Ontario. 

I guess I have to visit many many breeders and do a comparison if I wish to buy local.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

This is another Toy breeder in BC. 
Tees Poodles - Champion Breeder of Quality Dogs - Dr. Terill Udenberg : Tees Poodles

Would you consider Washington? It's fairly close to Vancouver when compared to Ontario.

Also, if you find a breeder in Alberta or Ontario that you want to work with, don't be afraid to ask help on here. In the past, some really nice fellow PF members offered to go to check out the breeders and/or puppies in their area.


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