# Poodles too Sensitive for "aversive" training methods?



## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

I think most of us here use a LIMA approach, meaning that we take the Least Invasive, Minimally Aversive approach. If a gentler approach doesn't work, we move further and further up the scale, with tools such as a prong or shock being a last resort (and they are just that--tools to be used for the situation. You don't use a screwdriver to take a nail out of the wall when a hammer would work better). Using positive tools first doesn't mean you don't tell your dog no, and removal of reward can be effective as a punishment for most things. That being said, everybody thinks they are the only ones who train the right way... 😉 It's a matter of pride, I suppose.

Poodles are sensitive dogs, although you will find the more high-strung individual who needs more training than normal. I wouldn't recommend using solely prongs and shock collars to train, as constant punishment can and will shut them down. They _need_ that positive feedback to thrive. They live for it, and you do get the occasional poodle who only trains if you praise them. If I'm training my Fluffy, I switch up the exercises when teaching something new to ensure that he doesn't become frustrated--otherwise, I can have him shut down and he doesn't learn as effectively. To contrast, my JRT mix will do the same thing for hours on end.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Yes, I don't Always use such tools on my dog. Only when I need to touch a learned behavior up, or if positive methods aren't working for the specific task.

My Labrador will look at me like what are you doing if I coo at him and use treats and praise always, I have to be firm with him and use tools sometimes. It wouldn't work if I was always just telling him no, and everything else is goody goody. He needs me to get physcial sometimes because he thrives with the extra guidence (which I stand by tools being, just extra guidance)

Clearly we all have our own opinions, and I'm not here to push back against them. I'm just asking, if I felt I needed to use a prong, if used the proper introduction and etc. would a poodle shut down or do I need to aviod them all together and try things like gentle leaders and slip leads?

Not asking would you use a prong if all else failed? Just asking, would it work or are they overall too sensitive


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

I'm afraid I'm going to have to give you a non-answer. It's not really as cut-and-dry as yes or no, unfortunately. It depends on the situation of the dog and the person using the tool. There are people who use prongs, and there are people who use positive methods only and get similar results with their poodles, but they are different poodles and different life situations. 

Poodles are intelligent, and if you damage the trust between you and the dog by accident, it can have long-lasting effects on the training beyond them shutting down for one session. They remember everything, and it might not be the thing you wanted them to remember (i.e., you use a shock collar near a trash can because they were going to go after a squirrel, and all of a sudden, they're afraid of being near trash cans). We've had members attend classes where the prong is used as a primary tool, and the dog shut down completely and did not spring back for a while. So, in general, user beware.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

ah, I got you.

So yes, but be extremely careful? Make sure the dog understands why the negitive reinforcer was given?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Poodles are very intelligent but also can be very sensitive. You have to know the individual well to know how to find the right balance (not one size fits all). I am a LIMA style trainer but have trained all of our dogs to accept pinch collars for use as needed (but rarely needed). For my rising star dog, Javelin, being told to come get dressed (safety harness for car and pinch collar if needed), getting his pinch collar put on a a very exciting and happy experience since it means he is going somewhere with me to practice something fun. 

One thing I generally think is true of most poodles is that you can't drill them on behaviors they know well.. I use two or at most three repeats of those behaviors for warm ups and to load some positive reinforcements into a training session that will include things the dog is still learning.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

I think the key is knowing what is punishment to your dog. Where a swift kick in the butt may be just what your lab needs (I'M JOKING--please don't jump on me!), a stern look may be more than what a poodle needs. That said, poodles have a wide range of personalities, and it sounds like you're pretty good at figuring out what is right for each individual dog. You'll do just fine.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

My Annie was way, way, way too sensitive for any adversive before 8 months or so. A stern "no!" made me feel like I'd beaten her. Accidental pain, caused her to avoid that situation for weeks/months - I had a really hard time teaching her to sit near me because I stepped on her foot once while we practiced. 

I do own a prong collar, used after 8 months or so and "no, you cannot chase squirrels!" on walks, but even that's mostly faded out at this point, I used it as an opportunity to interrupt and redirect positively, not my sole training method. A gentle leader caused her to shut down, the pressure on her nose was unbearably adversive but she is excited to see her prong collar come out. Based on seeing her reaction to a few other negative reinforcers I've used (spray bottle and compressed air can as a surprise when I set her up to try counter surfing and garbage can sniffing), I would be very reluctant to use an ecollar on her, or anything else. She has a LONG memory, for both good and bad. 

She's also not a dog that would learn well from adversives - she thrives with a lot of positive attention, and shuts down if she thinks I'm unhappy with her. She wants to know what she's doing is what I want, and gets very frustrated if I can't explain it well enough - pain or a correction in that moment would shut her down completely. 

The other really interesting thing about my poodle has been that food rewards are not the highest value. She's a challenge to train that way. I've had to learn to train with a ball/toy as a reward, opportunities (our heeling, place, side, etc have been reinforced mostly through permission to continue walking as a reward, or being allowed to leave the house/yard/etc). Removal of something fun is probably the most powerful tool in my toolbox. Mouthy teenage dog = human goes away/game ends. Pulling = turn and go the other direction, or go back inside, etc. All of these have been incredibly effective tools. I do have to be careful not to do this accidentally - come, then be caught/go inside/do something boring very quickly ruins her recall, and no food will outweigh the end of fun!

Annie responds really well to FUN as a training method - anything that's a game. Clicker training and precise markers are really useful too. Like other people have said though, 3-5 repetitions is max. Any more than that, and she gets frustrated and tries something new. I find it amazing though, that if I give up, and think she isn't getting it, then come back the next day, she'll often nail it immediately. I swear she mulls things overnight, and has it figured out ready for the next day. 

If I were you, I'd look for a good positive dog trainer for puppy classes for a poodle. Even if you chose to use P+ later on, I would argue the foundation training for a young poodle really needs to be very positive.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

thanks, I appreciate it. 

I'll def. use positive as a base for training, anyways I don't expect my dog to be even close to reliable until 2-3 years old, especially since it seems poodles mature slower than most dogs . Things will be positive only until he/she is atleast a 1 or so as we begin to enforce known behaviors


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

I am no poodle expert as Bobby is my first poodle. He is 23 months now and we brought him home at 9 weeks old. We have had dogs pretty much most of our lives but every dog teaches us something new. We have learned a lot from Bobby over these past months not to mention from all the books and Internet research on poodles and dogs in general and of course, this forum. 😉

Bobby is definitely a very sensitive dog but not so sensitive that we can’t be kindly firm when needed. He definitely knows words such as “No,” “Off,” Stop,” and the like, said in a firm manner. And in all honesty, he has been yelled at. Definitely it’s a rare thing and it’s not our “go to” but we are human and sometimes he’s naughty. He’s not so sensitive that he doesn’t bounce back immediately. If anything I think he just thinks we’re weird.😂
We use the light handed and fun approach with him and have no shame in treat giving for good behavior. I would say Bobby is sensitive with a
touch of stubbornness.😉 We try to be as creatively positive as possible.

Now...on the subject of prong collars. We do use one which I wish we didn’t have to but for us, it’s best for him and for us. I totally know there will be disagreement by some and that’s ok. We do what we think is best for Bobby and for us and for now, it is what’s best. I’ve had a lot of angst about this but am very much at peace about this decision.
I have worked very, very hard to train a good loose leash walk and good heeling. Most of the time he is absolutely great with just a collar or basic harness. However, he is a young, high prey driven dog and a dog for whom major distractions are still hard and who will sometimes just quickly jump, yank, and pull before you even know what hit you. I’m always on the look out but so is he!😉 He is sometimes quicker than I. Sometimes he will be sniffing after just quietly walking but the scent does something and up he flies then pulls like a sled dog. After several falls, having my arm almost jerked off, once breaking a finger, him getting loose twice last year... it was decided for my safety and his, a prong was and still is sometimes needed. I was working hard to transition him totally off of it and was able to not use one most of the summer. He is going through another little teen thing again and the sidewalks are now icy and snowy, so we decided, for now, after a major episode of take off and pull a couple of weeks ago, it’s safer to use a prong.

Last year we used the no pull harness but they aren’t magical and actually, if he had one of his jumpy episodes they would make him cough. This never happens with the prong. I never jerk it and I just keep training and training and making things relaxed, positive and light. I know it is an aversive, but I try to use it in the lightest way possible, if that makes sense. He is totally fine with it and I feel training is actually better because the walk is good and his focus on me is better and we really are both safer.

So in conclusion, yes, my poodle is very sensitive but at this point, we know him well and know what he is sensitive about. What works and doesn’t. We keep things as light and fun as possible and save the firmer stuff for only when it’s absolutely necessary. Like when raising children, we pick and choose our battles carefully. 😊


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Lol,

do you think with time and extra socialization poodles can become less sensitive, despite their genetic disposition?


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Depends on how we are defining sensitivity. 

Annie's very well socialized, and still very sensitive. She goes pretty much every where remotely dog friendly, is pretty bomb proof to sounds, sights (not squirrels, chipmunks, or flashes of light in the dark), people, etc. She stands like a rock for vet exams, and cheerfully lets new people greet her. Docks, cars, boats, weird bridges, elevators, new places, construction - she has no issues. I did have to work on parking garages and underpasses/tunnels as a puppy, she didn't like them, but is now ok. But she's still sensitive to her people's moods and wants to appeasement lick me if I accidentally step on her foot, or if I raise my voice.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

I can’t speak for any other poodle but Bobby has been very well socialized. And honestly, I LOVE his sensitivity. I’ve never had a bond with a dog like the bond I have with Bobby and his sensitive nature is very much a part of that. I wouldn’t have it any 
other way. 😊


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Awe thats lovely, I can see how a sensitive dog can improve a bond

Ok- I was thinking of the wrong sensitivity

is a poodle going to feed off my mood and become depressed? I have some mental health issues and I would hate for my dog to suffer too


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I find poodles to have a high degree of empathy as well as being sensitive.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

So a poodle would feed off of that?

shoot..


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

The thought of not being able to tell my poodle NO makes me laugh. I would say he is sensitive but not _that_ sensitive. He's a stubborn dog that really requires me to be very firm before he gets the point. I haven't used any strong aversives with him but minor ones, yes certainly. It depends on the dog. I think poodles can feed off of anxiety but they don't have the reputation for doing this nearly so much as herding breeds do. Personally I do not think my miniature poodle feeds off of my anxiety much at all. He's more simple, clownish, and dopey.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

gotcha, my lab is empathetic and will comfort me but it doesn't effect him at all. he's still goofy. 

Glad to hear mixed opinions, Dogs are all different.. I guess I'l have to see how mine ends up to decide what will and what wont work

I was reading the training page on Bijou poodles- they follow CM and their dogs are winning titles and seem happy and healthy.. No, I don't like it. But It goes to show that some of them can handle unsteady/harsh training methods, even though they shouldn't have to.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

A poodle that crumples and doesn't rebound when it hears an occasional shout or gets accidentally stepped on probably has deeper issues. But I quickly learned that a stern NO wasn't only unnecessary with Peggy, it was counterproductive. It was like an injection of energy that she didn't need in the moment.

You know that childhood game? "You're getting warmer... warmer.... colderrrr... warmer..." Until the person finds the object?

That's what training Peggy is like. That gentle "colder" is all she needs to correct her course, assuming it's quickly followed by a "warmer."

Does that mean she's perfect? No. But she knows more tricks than any dog I've met. She responds beautifully to a conversational tone. Her recall even during play is excellent. And she's overcome some socialization deficits from early puppyhood that could easily have become much larger problems with a different approach.

I think a good example of her sensitivity would be how she sits nicely in her training class while we listen to the intructor speak. But if the instructor throws her hands up in the air and makes a funny noise to make a point, Peggy will _shoot_ up in the air, too.

Rather than seeing that as a negative, I see it as a poodle super power. We do entirely silent training sessions some days, and the way she tunes into me is astonishing.

As far as how your mental state will affect your poodle.... Is it erratic? Volatile? If so, I feel that could be problematic. But if you just have low days, if you work with a breeder to find a poodle with the right temperament for you, your poodle will likely just go "low" with you and stick very close. Hard to articulate just how comforting that can be.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

One thing to keep in mind is there's a huge range of temperaments within poodles. So some lines may be better for what you're looking for than others. My dog is one of the most confident dogs I've ever known, and very little fazes him. He is very in tune with me and we have a very close connection, but his anxiety levels are generally always low. He does have a tendency for excitement though.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

My behavior is a bit erratic, a bit unpredictable, even for me... But what I admire about myself is the ability to stay calm and "mask" it in a way. I usually coast along with a general neutral mood, not happy, not sad either. there's lows, highs, and then days where the heck knows what's happening but it's happening and it's strong. This could be happy, sad, angry, etc. But these "moods" usually only last a day or two and with help, they are becoming less and less common...

I see how the unpredictable mood change could hurt a poodle in a way, Is there a way I can lower these chances?

I would appreciate a dog who is sensitive in the way that they can tell when somethings wrong and just spend a day in bed with me without much of a fuss, but I don't want to hurt the mental state of a dog.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Ava. said:


> My behavior is a bit erratic, a bit unpredictable, even for me... But what I admire about myself is the ability to stay calm and "mask" it in a way. I usually coast along with a general neutral mood, not happy, not sad either. there's lows, highs, and then days where the heck knows what's happening but it's happening and it's strong. This could be happy, sad, angry, etc. But these "moods" usually only last a day or two and with help, they are becoming less and less common...
> 
> I see how the unpredictable mood change could hurt a poodle in a way, Is there a way I can lower these chances?
> 
> I would appreciate a dog who is sensitive in the way that they can tell when somethings wrong and just spend a day in bed with me without much of a fuss, but I don't want to hurt the mental state of a dog.


My dog sounds like he has exactly the temperament you'd want except that he wouldn't be happy to spend a whole day in bed. He would demand you get up and go exercise him in some way at some point. He'd be happy to spend _most_ of the day in bed. In fact, he is a good mood stabilizer for me because his entire outlook on life is that everything is a game and the objective is to have the most fun possible. He is only sad when he believes we could be having more fun and I am keeping him from it.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Annie doesn't handle stress or raised voices well, but depression is fine. Hard to be depressed when walking a bouncing Poodle, watching a poodle bound through the grass, or getting Poodle cuddles. I would say she is cuddly and empathetic to a point, then tells me to get up and get MOVInG. "If you are just going to lie there - could you at least throw a ball?"

Bijou is really near where I used to live, but I didn't contact them when I was looking. Found the attitude that everyone else who is breeding is not as good really offputting, plus the requirement to spay before 12 months before getting papers (which is forbidden by CKC regs which say you must be provided them within 6 months). Since getting Annie, I have met two bijou poodles, and not been overly impressed by them. YMMV. The ones I met were not as well built as Annie/didn't have as nice movement, and were not particularly friendly or attentive to their owners. 2 isn't a huge sample size though. I also didn't like the owners, who were both, "I have a poodle but not a froufrou Poodle like YOURS" and sensitive about it people, which may not have helped with my impression of the dogs. But, she is very active in showing and does seem to do a ton of testing so... I would definitely want to visit before buying.

Edit : was just on their website. nope, wasn't the spay by 12 months thing, it was the offering pediatric spay that knocked them off my list. Can't believe I forgot!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Ava. said:


> My behavior is a bit erratic, a bit unpredictable, even for me... But what I admire about myself is the ability to stay calm and "mask" it in a way. I usually coast along with a general neutral mood, not happy, not sad either. there's lows, highs, and then days where the heck knows what's happening but it's happening and it's strong. This could be happy, sad, angry, etc. But these "moods" usually only last a day or two and with help, they are becoming less and less common...
> 
> I see how the unpredictable mood change could hurt a poodle in a way, Is there a way I can lower these chances?
> 
> I would appreciate a dog who is sensitive in the way that they can tell when somethings wrong and just spend a day in bed with me without much of a fuss, but I don't want to hurt the mental state of a dog.


This might sound silly, but it's best not to lie to a poodle. It's that disconnect between your face and your energy, or your words and your body language, that seems to make them anxious.

It would probably actually be really nice for you to let your guard down and be honest with your poodle. Mutually beneficial. 

Without digging too deep into your personal life, though, if anger is a real issue for you (sudden outbursts, breaking things, etc.) I might not go the poodle route.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

not much as a anger outburst as it is i feel angry, I handle anger different than most people, insetad of rage and scream I cry lol.

Bijou poodles looks SUPER Impressive on the screen, but I guess that's a great example how how a breeder can make themselves look great when they really are not.

I would of course pick my butt out of bed to go play with my doggo, just some down time is needed sometimes lol


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## Phoebe’sMom (Mar 15, 2020)

My spoo is really good about reading my mood and as long as she gets her exercise she is down to do what ever I am doing the rest of the day. If I am studying for a test she is really good about cuddling up with me and helping me lol. 

I will say over the course of me having Phoebe if I start to cry she will try to cheer me up, whether that be by snuggling me, bring me a toy, or acting like a goof to make me smile.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

thats so sweet-

I am still a student, so it sounds like a poodle would be great for weekend trials and shows & weekday hikes and cuddles


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Ava. said:


> I mean I'm sorry but pure positive doesn't incorporate any sort of consequences, I'm not sure how a dog will learn that way, and it's not something I'd consider. I'm mostly positive but my dog wouldn't thrive without structure and consequence, and I think the same for all dogs.


Thinking about this some more....

If you were a houseguest in a foreign country, and your non-English-speaking hosts preferred you use the side door to the front door, how would you like to learn their preferences?

At risk of overly anthropomorphizing, _that's_ how poodles learn best:

Lock the front door, point through the window to the side door, and greet them warmly when they enter correctly. Easy peasy done.

Were there "consequences" to trying the front door? Kinda. It didn't work. You didn't get inside where you wanted to be.

But you also didn't get shocked just for touching the doorknob, which would probably have left you not wanting to go inside at all. Certainly you'd have been wary of your hosts for the duration of your stay. (Or, if you were a poodle, more likely wary of the house itself.)


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## DNi (Apr 12, 2020)

I think all the responses so far can be summed up as: "Depends on the dog"...to which I'll add my own. 

To be honest, I was looking forward to a dog that would be sensitive and empathetic. Um. Loki is a lot of things (and has me completely wrapped around his poodle toes), but he is not that dog. He is sensitive in that he's super observant and form associations very quickly, which makes training a lot of fun for both of us. He does get verbally corrected with a firm "no" and that's usually enough. It's a lot of fun to watch him think (even when he's misbehaving).

He is not really responsive to my mood or the mood of the household (although I guess we're a fairly calm household). He'll come over and sniff me if I'm upset, but will usually wander away to go back to whatever it was that occupied him (usually napping or chasing a ball). He is not that dog that will sense that you need extra comforting, at least not as an adolescent. But I'm appreciating how he seems unflappably chill and/or happy - depending on if he thinks a walk/playtime is imminent. He bounces back and recovers very quickly from being uncomfortable or surprised.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Yeah, Peggy's only recently started to blossom in the "comforting" department. She's 16 months.


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## DNi (Apr 12, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Yeah, Peggy's only recently started to blossom in the "comforting" department. She's 16 months.


He sometimes comes up to me, sits, and offers up a paw with a serious expression. I'd melt for just a moment until I see his eyes flicking over to the treat jar meaningfully. "Ah...You want a snack." 😂


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

DNi said:


> He sometimes comes up to me, sits, and offers up a paw with a serious expression. I'd melt for just a moment until I see his eyes flicking over to the treat jar meaningfully. "Ah...You want a snack." 😂


Lol. Very relatable. But it's also possible he's used to being rewarded for a job well done and can tell by your melting he's done something good.  

I do find that the transactional nature of my relationship with Peggy has lessened somewhat with time. But I try to be mindful of the fact that she's still a dog and doing what works best for her survival is always going to be her driving motivation. Some people take that extremely personally, which is silly and will ultimately damage their relationship with their dog.

"I don't want him only using me for food!!" was a common refrain in our puppy classes.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Dogs are definitely transactional. I found it appeased my human sensitivities and really deepened our bond when I started using a ton of lifestyle rewards. So Annie will sit meaningfully, or look at me, and what she means is "walk me". Or "I want that toy", or "I want that squirrel". I don't give treats on demand though. I am the food giver, the treat provider, the walk taker, the ball thrower, the ball rescue-from-under-the-couch-er, the person who sometimes allows squirrel chasing, etc. She works for all those things with a sit, stay, eye contact, etc, and it really helps the relationship. 

An interesting experience coincidentally a half hour ago. We finished dinner. I was feeling awful, so got up, went to lie down on the couch. Annie came over, and plopped beside the couch, curling into it, stretching her head up, asking for pets, way more cuddly than usual. I said to mom , 'wow she is cuddly tonight'. Mom, not knowing about this conversation, said that Annie watched me get up from the table with obvious concern, swears the dog said clearly "oh no, she is not feeling well again" before following me out to the living room. Moms not one to anthromorphize animals, so that's really interesting. Now Annie is lying so I can play with her topknot, occasionally reaching up with her nose to touch my leg gently. I love when I am in a lot of pain, and go upstairs to lie on my bed, and she comes upstairs a few minutes later and just wants to lie against my side. She knows I can't stand her applying any pressure, so she just cuddles as close as she can. 

(Sorry for the offtopic thread hijack, Ava)


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Really exited to not NEED tools as it seems with poodles... my prong and e-collar will be put to rest unless I'm recall training with the mini educator.

I'm exited to have a deeper meaning in a dog-human relationship!

My Labrador, while labs are known to be awesome. is a brat. We have a very very strong bond but he's a smartie pants and doesn't like listening <.<


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Ava. said:


> Really exited to not NEED tools as it seems with poodles... my prong and e-collar will be put to rest unless I'm recall training with the mini educator.
> 
> I'm exited to have a deeper meaning in a dog-human relationship!
> 
> My Labrador, while labs are known to be awesome. is a brat. We have a very very strong bond but he's a smartie pants and doesn't like listening <.<


I'm not against e collars when necessary, but I've been doing recall training with my mini using only very high value treats and a whistle so he hears it more clearly than my voice. It is rare when he doesn't respond to me and return immediately. Some day I may need to proof it further (probably for recalling when he knows it's time to go home!), but for now he's doing very well as is. Even when he's wrestling with another dog or distracted by a flirtatious female, he is surprisingly reliable. I don't know if it's all poodles, but he has a surprisingly cool head.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

thats lovely, I have some sort of anxiety regarding my dog blowing off a recall.. it scares me to not have that piece of mind even if I don't even use it that day. Its kinda like emergency breaks, need em, don't use em often


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm way out of my element here but as to feeding off moods and emotions, yes, poodles in general are very attuned to their humans which is probably a big reason that positive training is the best, first approach because, you'll think I'm loony here, but they _get it_. They understand, they reason, they conclude.
It's not hype that they're considered one of the smartest breeds. _Smart_ needs to understand _why._

I love PtP's story of her husband explaining the workings of a vending machine to Peggy when she was unsure of it. Genius move! Of course, it was the tone and the manner, but it's just possible that if she had 4 quarters, she'd have gotten herself a soda lol.

Within this forum, search for Asta's mom's training thread for Asta as her Psychiatric Service dog, search for Click-N-Treats thread on Noelle as her Diabetic Alert dog. They're the top two threads.
Poodle Service Dogs

Click was recently certified herself from the Karen Pryor Academy and working towards CPDT-KA, as is at least one other member. She also posted in the thread Thoughts on Aversives in Training along with some of our savvy folks into training.

Try the Advanced Search function to get results for "Adversive" in the Training and Obedience forum to get more thoughts from more members.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Ava,I have had three poodles; two that did therapy work and two that did service dog work. The female was very sensitive and would "go to her happy place and not invite you", if your training methods were not to her liking. That said, she thrived on the use of a prong collar because before I got her she had suffered trachea damage from pulling on her leash(or having the leash jerked on her?); with the use of the prong she pranced along side me and never let the leash get tight. If I used a regular flat collar she would hack. So, prong collar it was. She excelled at therapy work with seniors and timid children. We always won the games that involved carrying an egg on a spoon with your leash hand. My first male was/is very tuned into human emotions. He did therapy work for 13 years. In his younger years he worked exclusively with special education kids. He did eight years of work with high school students who were two or more years behind in reading. The reasons they were behind varied. This dog had the uncanny ability to predict when a kid was going to have a major meltdown. If they were going to be violent meltdowns he was not overly friendly with the student, which was interesting because he was normally a total love bug. On the other hand, he got called in to settle girls who were crying and so upset that they could not do their schoolwork. He threw himself into the arms of these girls. So he was responsive to emotions, but he did draw a line. He also had a real knack for walking into the classroom and seeking out the neediest person on that day. Sometimes it was the teacher! My second male while responsive is not overly sensitive. He has a very forgiving nature, My daughter has his brother and they are like night and day. Hers is very sensitive and gets his feelings hurt, while mine was born happy, with a thick skin. Oh, and I have used e-collars on them for rattle snake avoidance training,and to get through to one of the boys that our pet rabbit was not to be chased. I was very fortunate to have received private lessons on e-collar use from the man who had the rattle snake avoidance company. My three poodles have had very different temperaments, but they have all been biddable, and very smart.My advice to you for a psych. dog would be to choose a good breeder, and ask for a dog with a middle of the road temperament.You can have success with the more sensitive pup in the litter, especially with your experience, but it will be so much easier if you start out with a solid middle of the road pup.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I have seen Standard Poodles who rolled with corrections like any other working dog. I have also seen some so fragile in temperament that they could not, you could shut them down with a harsh word or bad mood. Much depends on the dog. But also much depends on the handler & their use (good or bad) of the tools (including the vocals used). I have very light hands. I was trained to have super light hands with horses & that translates to less is more in my hands with dogs. I go as light as the dog will allow. I go as strong as I must (I've trained a lot of guardian & working dogs so it's a different world) but it's important to train in a way that the light correction is enough, a stronger correction is to be rare as possible. So if you get a dog who is super sensitive/soft that dog won't pair well with someone like my husband who doesn't realize his own strength & has to work to be light in his hands. I have a childhood friend who would pair perfectly with the dog who is super soft. A correction from her would be like, "listen here" with big eyes, if you really rile her up she'll point her finger. 

Like Charmed said, I'd find a breeder you trust to work with & seek out that middle of the road pup.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Rose n Poos said:


> Within this forum, search for Asta's mom's training thread for Asta as her Psychiatric Service dog, search for Click-N-Treats thread on Noelle as her Diabetic Alert dog. They're the top two threads.
> Poodle Service Dogs


I want to clarify. I didn't intend to suggest you'd be training for an SD, but to show that poodles can "tune in" to mood, emotions, physical cues, and adjust accordingly to meet their people's needs.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Yeah no, I'm not looking for a service dog at this time . Just a friend.

I read the whole thread regardless, very interesting


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

I still have my first poodle and just started with my second, and I'm surprised at how different they are from each other, temperament-wise. The biggest difference is their willingness to engage with me. The first one, even as a puppy, found other people and other dogs much more interesting than being with me. I couldn't call him out of puppy play time in class and had to chase him down every time. The second dog, who came to me at the age of 4 months (already housebroken!) took a while to warm up to me, and has never left my side to greet a new person unless I invited him to do so.

Both are very intelligent, but because (I think) of the new dog's greater willingness to engage with me, is soaking up obedience behaviors like a sponge. That's not to say he doesn't need some redirection from time to time, but usually a tug on the leash (flat collar only) or some "hey, wake up!" language will get me what I want. He understands clearly that hearing "uh-oh" or not getting a cookie in training means he didn't do it correctly.

I've never used a prong on either of them--not to say I wasn't tempted with the older dog sometimes, but if he's trying to drag me when leashed, it's easy enough to loop the leash around this belly into the "suitcase" method, which reduces that pulling behavior dramatically. (Use a 6-foot leash, put the snap on the collar over the dog's spine, wrap the free end around the dog's belly and then under the snap to form a loop that will tighten around the chest.)

My guys will shut down if too firmly "corrected." I strive to be a "mostly positive" trainer while recognizing that behavior ranging from annoying to dangerous needs to be firmly discouraged. I am not a fan of E-collars. I'm not educated enough to use one properly and not willing to spend $200 on the type that can be fined-tuned to a "tap" versus a "zap." But I do recognize that for certain uses, they could be beneficial—the situation I always think of is rattlesnake avoidance training, figuring that the dog's momentary discomfort is the price of perhaps saving its life.

I prefer to see what research has to say rather than rely on anecdotes. I did a quick search of research comparing positive and aversive training methods and lit upon a couple that align with my own observations. Quotes are taken from the Abstract section (the summary at the beginning) of each paper. There was one more paper comparing these types of studies. It is published in Science Direct, but you have to pay to read the whole paper (Do aversive-based training methods actually compromise dog welfare?: A literature review).



> These findings refute the suggestion that training with an E-collar is either more efficient or results in less disobedience, even in the hands of experienced trainers. In many ways, training with positive reinforcement was found to be more effective at addressing the target behavior as well as general obedience training. This method of training also poses fewer risks to dog welfare and quality of the human-dog relationship. Given these results we suggest that there is no evidence to indicate that E-collar training is necessary, even for its most widely cited indication.


Full text at Efficacy of Dog Training With and Without Remote Electronic Collars vs. a Focus on Positive Reinforcement



> Dogs from Group Aversive displayed more stress-related behaviors, spent more time in tense and low behavioral states and more time panting during the training sessions, showed higher elevations in cortisol levels after training and were more ‘pessimistic’ in the cognitive bias task than dogs from Group Reward. These findings indicate that the use of aversive-based methods compromises the welfare of companion dogs in both the short- and the long-term.


Full text at https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/823427v1.full

And, in case you've never seen it before, here is a charming short (under 8 minutes), award-winning film about a lady and her poodles.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Mvhplank, thank you for sharing that video. It is both beautiful & sad. That her mother sold her dog has never left her & such a hard thing to live with. I would love to see her training with a young dog. Would be fascinating to watch her train.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

dogsavvy said:


> Mvhplank, thank you for sharing that video. It is both beautiful & sad. That her mother sold her dog has never left her & such a hard thing to live with. I would love to see her training with a young dog. Would be fascinating to watch her train.


Dogsavvy--I know! It always makes me tear up a little. But you can see the joy she and her dogs have in each other's company.


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## thataway4 (Sep 2, 2020)

I also loved the video (I'll watch it again with my wife and dogs after dinner)--and the interesting dialog about training. Thanks!


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## Boats (Oct 22, 2020)

Ava. said:


> Awe thats lovely, I can see how a sensitive dog can improve a bond
> 
> Ok- I was thinking of the wrong sensitivity
> 
> is a poodle going to feed off my mood and become depressed? I have some mental health issues and I would hate for my dog to suffer too


I have a 11 week old standard Poodle. Rio is the fifth poodle buddy I've had ranging from teacups to standards, and given my age probably my last. They have all been unique in character and temperament while being wonderful companions through both good and bad times. They are individually as unique as people, yet I have never seen one that was not kind with their own style of compassion and patience. As puppies they are often little land sharks which may require some "time out" moments. They will outgrow the stage becoming great companions that are very unlikely to mirror you in difficult times while being a great anchor when most needed.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Thank you all for such the wonderful, and informational posts. I am beyond exited to get a poodle, even though its likely several years away from now. Happy to mold my training to fit a poodle, and I am exited to own a breed who due to their temperment, is known to be very responsive, sensitve, and smart. Poodles are such a unique breed . 

Also sooo many haircuts im in love


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Ava while you are waiting and getting ready for your poodle you may find this blog type thread I have going about training Javelin for the obedience ring to be interesting to read through. Javelin's road to ring ready!

I think we share many attributes in how we train.


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## hrsldy (Oct 8, 2019)

OMG that video was amazing.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

PeggyTheParti said:


> If you were a houseguest in a foreign country, and your non-English-speaking hosts preferred you use the side door to the front door, how would you like to learn their preferences?
> 
> At risk of overly anthropomorphizing, _that's_ how poodles learn best:
> 
> ...





Rose n Poos said:


> I'm way out of my element here but as to feeding off moods and emotions, yes, poodles in general are very attuned to their humans which is probably a big reason that positive training is the best, first approach because, you'll think I'm loony here, but they _get it_. They understand, they reason, they conclude.
> It's not hype that they're considered one of the smartest breeds. _Smart_ needs to understand _why._
> 
> I love PtP's story of her husband explaining the workings of a vending machine to Peggy when she was unsure of it. Genius move! Of course, it was the tone and the manner, but it's just possible that if she had 4 quarters, she'd have gotten herself a soda lol.
> ...





mvhplank said:


> I still have my first poodle and just started with my second, and I'm surprised at how different they are from each other, temperament-wise. The biggest difference is their willingness to engage with me. The first one, even as a puppy, found other people and other dogs much more interesting than being with me. I couldn't call him out of puppy play time in class and had to chase him down every time. The second dog, who came to me at the age of 4 months (already housebroken!) took a while to warm up to me, and has never left my side to greet a new person unless I invited him to do so.
> 
> Both are very intelligent, but because (I think) of the new dog's greater willingness to engage with me, is soaking up obedience behaviors like a sponge. That's not to say he doesn't need some redirection from time to time, but usually a tug on the leash (flat collar only) or some "hey, wake up!" language will get me what I want. He understands clearly that hearing "uh-oh" or not getting a cookie in training means he didn't do it correctly.
> 
> ...


These three posts above pretty much sum up my thoughts and experience on training my Spoo. I would absolutely love to see 'The Poodle Trainer' train her dogs to do those amazing things! I would bet there is not an aversive in there

I have a really hard time even thinking of shock collars or prong collars. Poodles are amazingly smart and learn so fast. Within a year mine had passed his CGC, CGCA, CGCU, PAT, and three trained service dog tasks. The best thing I ever did was leave the aversive trainer that had been recommended to me after the second private lesson (even loosing the money I had paid for a series of lessons) and going to a behaviorist who taught me her amazing gentle loving training methods. It was fascinating to see his rapid learning after that, and mine! 

I have never had a dog that needed aversive training methods. But after a cocker spaniel, a dalmation, a black lab, and a a lab/shepherd mix, I have to say that my standard poodle was the easiest and fastest to train! He has spoiled me rotten. If I ever get another dog (I'm 74) it will definitely be a poodle


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Ava. said:


> Hi!
> 
> I'm what you would call a balanced trainer I suppose and one of the few people who do it right as well. I use a blended method of training (reward and consequence based) as well as operant conditioning (R+,R-,P+,P-) I mesh my ways to fit the dog I am training. I've used my methods on dogs as sensitive as shelties, I just modified it to a slip lead, extra praise to let her hew know she was fine, and setting her up for success.
> 
> ...


I train much like yourself. My st. poodle walks on a prong collar, if not he would probably choke himself on a flat collar. With the prong he doesn't even try to pull. I do think poodles are more sensitive to you (their person) than many other breeds. In that if you are nervous or apprehensive, they pick up on that. If you are easy and outgoing, same. I feel your methods of training positive, but letting them know that you are in control would work well.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Yeah,

Wouldn't a tool such as a prong be helpful with a anxious dog? I know mine gets nervous when I'm not using it because I use my devices as a way of communication, rather than a punishment.. I think of the prong collar the same as me telling him "hey buddy, end of the line" without me actually having to _say_ it. When I don't have a tool on him he's unsure about weather or not hes right, since I'm usually guiding him along with little pops, and corrections so he is always led in the right direction.

I hear about letting dogs make the choice to be right, doh.. but they leave out the fact that I also don't let my dog be wrong. There is no room for confusion in our training. I have let my dog do whatever he wants, and THEN fix it, but it leads to confusion over what behavior is right. Not even allowing the wrong thing to happen, by simply avioding it, or giving a leash pop is the most effective way I've ever trained a dog. 

I've worked with some sensitive dogs over the course of my life, My grandmother owns a sheltie, she always hands me the leash and lets me handle the dog. I LOVE it because sensitive dogs are not only so much more fun to work with, but it makes me respect dog training more, not having to work with My dog who makes his own choices about what to do.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Ava - for your interest:









Efficacy of Dog Training With and Without Remote Electronic Collars vs. a Focus on Positive Reinforcement


We assessed the efficacy of dog training with and without remote electronic collars compared to training with positive reinforcement. A total of 63 dogs with known off-lead behavioral problems such as poor recall were allocated to one of three training groups (each n = 21), receiving up to 150...




www.frontiersin.org





Can I recommend you pick up a copy of Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson? It's a classic, more than 20 years old now, you may be able to pick it up in the library. it has really influenced how I am training Annie. It's a great dive into how dogs think and why they do the things they do. I read it and went "of course, I know that!" but then realize that no, I didn't really think of it that way, or at least that clearly, until she made it so obvious. I keep meaning to reread it to pick up more nuances.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Yep! I love reading all things dog training, regardless of methods used.

I don't think I'd ever stop using tools, (even if that means just a slip lead)... but I read a lottttt and I encoperate ALOT of different methods, mostly positive when traning


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Ava - for your interest:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yes, I'm reading through Culture Clash right now and it's very good. However, I have to read it very slowly, since it throws a lot of info at you in every paragraph. Her other book, Oh, Behave! is quite good, too. Highly recommend it, Ava!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Ava. said:


> I'm usually guiding him along with little pops, and corrections so he is always led in the right direction.


I would encourage you to look at this differently. You can just as easily (and perhaps more effectively) guide a dog with little rewards and reinforcements. 

I consider the leash, first and foremost, a safety tether.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Ava. said:


> <snip>Wouldn't a tool such as a prong be helpful with a anxious dog? I know mine gets nervous when I'm not using it because I use my devices as a way of communication, rather than a punishment.. I think of the prong collar the same as me telling him "hey buddy, end of the line" without me actually having to _say_ it. When I don't have a tool on him he's unsure about weather or not hes right, since I'm usually guiding him along with little pops, and corrections so he is always led in the right direction.
> 
> I hear about letting dogs make the choice to be right, doh.. but they leave out the fact that I also don't let my dog be wrong. There is no room for confusion in our training. I have let my dog do whatever he wants, and THEN fix it, but it leads to confusion over what behavior is right. Not even allowing the wrong thing to happen, by simply avioding it, or giving a leash pop is the most effective way I've ever trained a dog.<snip>


Poodles are very intelligent. VERY intelligent, as a generalization. (Your mileage may vary, since a lot depends on genetics.) They can think, reason, and figure things out. You've no doubt heard the argument that if you train with cookies, what happens with you run out? The corollary is, "If you train with tools, what happens when you don't have that tool?" The answer to both is that (a) he might run around in wild circles because he hasn't really learned the task at hand or (b) he will do what you ask because he likes doing it and enjoys interacting with you. I once forgot to bring any treats at all to a rented training ring. It was one of the best sessions we ever had because we were _playing _with each other and having a blast.

I train new skills by starting slow, using whatever the dog finds motivating. It's usually string cheese--not a #1 top favorite, but good enough to work for. For a jackpot reward, it might be hot dog pieces. If the dog gets it wrong, it's because I haven't made him understand the task at hand. I'll back up to a simpler step and review the task again until I can add distance and still get the correct response.

The part I have to remember to work on, though, is as important as teaching the skill--taking it on the road and proofing in different locations, situations, and challenges. What if a dumbbell gets caught in the gating? Under the gating? Sure, the judge will ask you to redo your throw, but if your dog kicks it under the gating, what will happen? Will he give up because he doesn't know how to figure out what to do next? Or will he dig it out with a paw because he knows the job is to bring the dumbbell back? What about signals? Is he going to watch some random person walking by or you? Proofing is where he really internalizes what the job requires.

How's that working out? He has more than 70 performance titles in several venues of obedience and rally, including Utility titles in 3 different venues (AKC Preferred Utility, UKC Utility, and CDSP OTCH-C4). And he STILL wants to go say "hi" to the judge and stewards! Oh well, I don't really want to punish him for being friendly.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

PtP a leash is a tool like any other. It does restrict the dog's choices and as such is actually an aversive tool. We certainly do need leashes to maintain safety much of the time but I dont think we should pretend that it is just something like a seatbelt in a car either. I don't give leash pops to any of our dogs, but pinch collars that have been carefully introduced mean that I don't have to. Each dog decides its level of comfort while wearing one, and the level of pressure they each put on themselves is different. At this point nearly all of the work Lily or Javelin and I do together is off leash. I still correct them verbally if they are wrong and if one of them decides to really try to ignore me they will get led back to work by the collar or a short tab attached to their collar.

And Marguerite you are right on about the importance of proofing, even for pet behaviors like recalls. Recalls that work in the fenced backyard but not in the open to the world front yard are meaningless.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Ava. said:


> Wouldn't a tool such as a prong be helpful with a anxious dog? I know mine gets nervous when I'm not using it because I use my devices as a way of communication, rather than a punishment.. I think of the prong collar the same as me telling him "hey buddy, end of the line" without me actually having to _say_ it. When I don't have a tool on him he's unsure about weather or not hes right, since I'm usually guiding him along with little pops, and corrections so he is always led in the right direction.


I understand what you are saying, but I think you are looking at it from the wrong end here. It's not the "tool such as a prong" that helps an anxious dog, in and of itself. Anxious dogs do best when they have clear communication and know what to expect. Yes, a prong or other tool can be used to proved that, for sure. But of course there are other ways as well, which would depend on the individual dog/handler (as you know). 
I would say that ideally a handler would have several ways to clearly communicate, because you never know when any one of them will be unavailable to you. 

One of my previous dogs sounds a lot like your lab. Saige was a very happy, friendly, easygoing dog- but boy was she 'hard headed'! My other dog at the time was very sensitive to tone of voice and body language, and easy to train. Saige in comparison was almost insensitive. She was the perfect dog with our small kids- yelling, screaming, poking baby fingers, stumbling on her, etc, none of it phased her. I finally got over my resistance to prongs and introduced her to one, which was a game changer. Over the years we managed to pair the communication via prong with hand signals/body language, and did not use the prong anymore. But I always had to exaggerate tone with her vs my other dogs.
Interestingly, my current Corso is SO sensitive to my tone of voice, that it is not a suitable method of communication for training. A prong (with literally finger twitch movents) is better for her since it's more neutral and she processes that better. She does well with hand signals and body language too.




Ava. said:


> I hear about letting dogs make the choice to be right, doh.. but they leave out the fact that I also don't let my dog be wrong. There is no room for confusion in our training. I have let my dog do whatever he wants, and THEN fix it, but it leads to confusion over what behavior is right. Not even allowing the wrong thing to happen, by simply avioding it, or giving a leash pop is the most effective way I've ever trained a dog.


I 100% agree that the best way to have a well behaved dog, is to never give it the opportunity for bad choices (if your puppy has only ever had the chance to chew on appropriate items, then chewing furniture won't be in it's repertoire of behaviours for eg).
I do think that there are two different aspects though: what I call 'manners', vs obedience commands/tricks. For example, sitting is not a wrong behaviour, in fact often it's a good one. But it is incorrect if/when you are asking your dog for an incompatible behaviour. I think the 'choice' concept particularly comes into play when doing tricks or when there are multiple 'right' choices.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Forums can be so confusing! I pair the prong with other things too, Sometimes I'll let my dog walk to the end of the leash, even though I can tell 10 seconds before he pulls ahead.. that he is going to pull ahead. Sometimes I judge, well hey he's been doing this a lot lately. maybe he NEEDS to hit the end of the leash this time so he will understand, just because you got only got a verbal correction the last time you did this, doesn't mean you are allowed to do this.

There are several forms of "clear communication" that I use. Such as saying nuh ah when he does something I don't like, and in other forms of leash pressure. I've heard SO many positive only trainers tell me "if he needs a correction, he doesn't understand the command" .. that frusterates me SO much because yes, he knows the command.. he chose to ignore it? you know dogs.. can do that.. right? As well as people telling my dog doesn't respect me, thats why he's pulling.. which leads to me shaking my head.. because we HAVE respect for eachother, but sometimes that dead bird is much more interesting than my command to leave it.. no matter how much respect, and how well trained he is, dogs blow us off sometimes. Even the most well trained dog, will probably break a stay if a wild animal came and ran in front of the dog.

I think what I've said has been picked apart a bit, and its ok. When I use the term "balanced" that means I pair positive, with negitive. So when I put a prong on my dog, I also put a treat pouch around my waist, and go from my typical zombie uninterested in life.. self to my "happy" self... Most of the time, corrections aren't used in my training sessions at all.

Dogs choose whats aversive to them. they do. withdrawing treats can be WAY more awful to your dog than a pop on the leash. I don't think the generalization that positive only is ALWAYS better isn't true. It depends on the dog.

This is more of a rant than anything, I'm not replying to anybody.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> PtP a leash is a tool like any other. It does restrict the dog's choices and as such is actually an aversive tool. We certainly do need leashes to maintain safety much of the time but I dont think we should pretend that it is just something like a seatbelt in a car either. I don't give leash pops to any of our dogs, but pinch collars that have been carefully introduced mean that I don't have to. Each dog decides its level of comfort while wearing one, and the level of pressure they each put on themselves is different. At this point nearly all of the work Lily or Javelin and I do together is off leash. I still correct them verbally if they are wrong and if one of them decides to really try to ignore me they will get led back to work by the collar or a short tab attached to their collar.


My comment was very explicitly in response to the notion of guiding a dog along with regular pops. I handled my dog similarly as a teen, and wish I could go back and apply what I know now.

When I was fostering a large GSD mix, I knew that I'd likely need to use a prong collar for both our safety.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I have trained my spoo mostly off leash. We even practice in the neighborhood sidewalks and streets off leash (it is not a busy street). As well as in the woods where I let him run to get exercise, as there is no way I can give him enough. He watches me like a hawk. I use more body language than verbal commands, and often simply whisper what I would like him to do. And normally speak to him in complete sentences. I guess my question is why does your dog want to do something you don't want him to do?

If he is on a leash and it looks like he is going to want to dash off to chase something, etc, I say his name and give him a treat before he takes off, and then he doesn't do it. If I haven't been paying close enough attention and he tries to take off, I just turn around and go the other way so that he doesn't get to continue. 

Withholding a treat makes far more sense to me than a prong collar, which I have never used. I can't even comprehend the comparison. He doesn't get a treat unless he has done something to deserve it. He actually rarely gets treats after he has learned something, just for an occasional reinforcer which makes it more powerful from what I have learned and experienced.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Hmmm, I am curious as to peoples position on whether it is necessary to be dominant ? As opposed to your dog being dominant? How does that relate to using "aversive" training methods?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

kontiki said:


> Hmmm, I am curious as to peoples position on whether it is necessary to be dominant ? As opposed to your dog being dominant? How does that relate to using "aversive" training methods?


I think about when my dad walks into a room and all the dogs fall all over themselves to be in his presence. His energy isn't dominant. It's calm, cool, collected. It's honest and predictable. And dogs think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread! (Or, in Peggy's case, since string cheese.)


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

the dominance theory has been debunked. Dogs do not see us as dominant figures.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Ava. said:


> the dominance theory has been debunked. Dogs do not see us as dominant figures.


Absolutely correct!!!! Nobody is dominant but the people should be showing leadership. Afterall don't/shouldn't toddlers see people like their parents, grandparents, teachers and the like as leaders? And when those folks to take a leadership role with children in their sphere of influence down't everything just go to hell in a handbasket?

There is a difference between being a dominating figure and a leader. Here is Ursula le Guin's translation of verse 17 from the Tao Te Ching

_True leaders
are hardly known to their followers.
Next after them are the leaders
the people know and admire;
after them, those they fear;
after them, those they despise.

To give no trust
is to get no trust.

When the work's done right,
with no fuss or boasting,
ordinary people say,
Oh, we did it._


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## bluegirl1997 (Aug 10, 2019)

I know my dogs sure don’t. This is the leadership matrix in our house: dogs, husband, socks, lint, me. Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

then you need to form a better relationship with your dogs.

They do not see us as dominant figures, but they do look at us for guidance.
if your dog doesn't look for you as guidance/doesn't listen to you despite training- your relationship may need to be adressed

and that isn't a bad thing


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

It appears to me that using aversive techniques is an attempt to be dominant. So the dog may not be seeing the person using those techniques as dominant, but as a punisher. Is that having a good relationship with a dog?


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

No,

using adversive techniques is a way to teach your dog exactly what is meant to be done. They elimenate the element of confusion in dog training.
Instead of ignoring the bad behavior, and rewarding the good, you correct the bad behavior and reward the good.

There is no dominance- or trying to be dominant (being domanint isn't even possible so why would somebody try)

Part of the reason why my dog and I's relationship is so good is because he knows exactly what I want. I'm not a dog trainer by any means, I'm just speaking from what I've read, and what I've learned with my dogs.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

I thought I would share something the trainer in our puppy class said that I found really helpful. Apologies if this is something that has come up in other training threads, I only read through this thread closely. She asked us to think about positive and negative not in terms of good/bad, but in terms of adding/subtracting, or giving something versus taking something away. The class philosophy is positive but not permissive. So positive punishment, which she does not believe in, would be like yelling, hitting, jerking the choke collar. And negative punishment would be taking something away, usually your dog's freedom (in a short time out) or fun (by ending the game) or you (by removing yourself). So in this approach there are consequences, and even "punishments" but they're negative in the sense of subtractive and only aversive in the sense that the dog is not getting the thing they'd prefer. I type this as I've just given my puppy a strong AH-AH as she was going in for a taste of our vinyl collection, so obviously I think some verbal correction is ok.

Separately, this is interesting for me because I've been a horse person for most of my life, only recently returned to it though. Now that I am I'm learning more about horse training and theory, and mainstream horse training uses a lot of pressure/release, which sounds a little like how you are thinking about rewarding/correcting, it's debatably not purely R+ and there are apparently lots of debates about this going on in the horse training world.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

My dogs never think they are being dominated or punished. This is (as at least I already knew) is not an area where we will ever even come close to thinking that relates. kontiki I think you are very close minded about these matters. I always reevaluate how my dogs and I are dong as team mates even though you probably would disagree.

And Oonapup your trainer is correct that in the 4 quadrants of operant conditioning positive means adding something and negative means removing something.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

@Ava. have you read or watched much Ian Dunbar? I recently shared this in another thread, but you may find it interesting:









BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE — FOR 110 YEARS?


Edward Lee Thorndike showed that behavior is modified by its consequences and in 1905, he published his Law of Effect, basically stating: Any behavior followed by pleasant consequences will increase in frequency and be more likely to occur in the future, whereas any behavior followed by...




www.dogstardaily.com





It's deliciously dense! I get something new from each read.

Like you, I enjoy learning as much as I can about dog training, and always have. That's part of what I love so much about Poodle Forum—sharing ideas and learning something new every day.

One of my favourite shows when I was just a little kid was a very dry British program, in which you watched owners learn obedience, mostly in a ring. Lol. I wish I could find it now! It was sooo old school, even by '80s standards. I loved it more than cartoons.

Training has come such a long way since then, and I cringe recalling some of the methods I attempted—unsupervised!!—with my first dog (a funny little German Wirehaired Pointer). I was only 8 years old. Ack! But....she learned some amusing tricks and we had a lovely bond. And my love of learning has never waned.

Are you interested in training professionally? I think I'd be awful at it, mostly because the human component would drive me mad. But I'd love to assist with a puppy class someday.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Those few of you that think using aversives is a good way to train, and myself, need to agree to disagree. Calling people closeminded or any other names is not a good idea, and is actually using an aversive in my opinion.

Ian Dunbar is amazing! Thanks for his great link PeggyTheParty.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Domination has been debunked big time, with the primary study on wolves even being wrong--wolves in the wild certainly don't act like that on the regular, and function quite differently, structure-wise. Now, aversives have been shown to be successful and occasionally beneficial when used under specific circumstances, but that's much different from the 'dominance' style of training, which assumes that the dog naturally wants to be 'boss' over humans and paints a picture of a dog driven by ego rather than as a being who operates on the concept of 'survive'. Aversives are pure psychology, dominance theory as it pertains to training is pure bogus.

I've always personally thought that using wolf studies to explain things as true in dogs is rather bizarre, since A) while they are both canids, they aren't the same animal as one has been domesticated and one has not, so naturally there are going to going to be some major discrepancies between the two--it's like comparing apples and pears--and B) there are literally millions of dogs to do studies on, so why not use them instead? You'd get a much more accurate picture. Now, using these studies to compare the two, I can see. I remember seeing some tv show (I think it was NOVA) and they ran a study on dogs and captive, raised-from-birth-as-a-pet wolves. They wanted to see how fast they asked for help if there was a food item stuck under something. The dogs called it quits and asked the human for help almost immediately after they realized they couldn't get it, while the wolves just kept trying, even though the human was right next to them. I wish I could remember the name, it was interesting to watch.


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## 1fast8 (May 16, 2020)

I think there are huge differences in poodles we have a large male I never touch or even raise my voice to he would be crushed by the way he stays within inches of the wife night and day on the other hand our female is more outgoing and has to be calmed down at times she is very smart and knows why she got scolded and modifies her behavior


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

1fast8, yes you need to know the dog in front of you. I also have two spoos, a bitch and a dog. They are very different. Lily is becoming more sensitive about verbal corrections and tone of voice, but needs them much more rarely now too as she is most definitely a senior. at 12 years old. Javelin can be quite sensitive since he doesn't like making mistakes, but he also is very resilient about recovering from hearing that he has made a mistake. He is and I suspect always will be a happy warrior. He has had an upper respiratory thing going on this month, but even though my trainer and I have either cut lessons short or modified the exercises to work on plan he has wanted to keep going all the way through.

BTW I have been to at least five different multi-day workshops with Ian Dunbar before he retired from the lecture circuit and had interesting conversation over coffee breaks about when he thinks it is necessary (rarely, specifically to modify a behavior that puts a dog in danger of losing its life) to use even tough corrective tools like e collars (with him noting that they should only be used by the most accomplished trainers). He is also the person that taught me the protocol for introducing, using and then being able to fade the use of a pinch collar (which I have explained here more than once and have successfully used with my own dogs and one or two clients for whom I thought it would help and that they would do exactly what I told them, over the years).


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> 1fast8, yes you need to know the dog in front of you. I also have two spoos, a bitch and a dog. They are very different. Lily is becoming more sensitive about verbal corrections and tone of voice, but needs them much more rarely now too as she is most definitely a senior. at 12 years old. Javelin can be quite sensitive since he doesn't like making mistakes, but he also is very resilient about recovering from hearing that he has made a mistake. He is and I suspect always will be a happy warrior. He has had an upper respiratory thing going on this month, but even though my trainer and I have either cut lessons short or modified the exercises to work on plan he has wanted to keep going all the way through.


I'm sorry Javelin is still suffering with that nasty infection. 



lily cd re said:


> BTW I have been to at least five different multi-day workshops with Ian Dunbar before he retired from the lecture circuit and had interesting conversation over coffee breaks about when he thinks it is necessary (rarely, specifically to modify a behavior that puts a dog in danger of losing its life) to use even tough corrective tools like e collars (with him noting that they should only be used by the most accomplished trainers). He is also the person that taught me the protocol for introducing, using and then being able to fade the use of a pinch collar (which I have explained here more than once and have successfully used with my own dogs and one or two clients for whom I thought it would help and that they would do exactly what I told them, over the years).


On average, how long would you say it takes until you can fade the pinch collar? Or until you _should_ fade it? Is there a commonly agreed upon timeline? Or one that Dr. Dunbar recommends?


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> @Ava.
> 
> 
> Are you interested in training professionally? I think I'd be awful at it, mostly because the human component would drive me mad. But I'd love to assist with a puppy class someday.



Yes! I do plan on going into a dog training field, specifically a behaviorist. I have already landed myself a spot in a dog shelter training position, since I'm only 16, theres not much I can do to gain experience


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

@peggy, the prong collar should be faded, if you are training a heel
if you use it for general OB, it doesn't typically fade out, you put it on your dog and use it if needed.

As far as E-collars go- I do not believe in using them for OB, only for an extension of control when doing recalls.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Peggy I only use the pinch collar for heeling and most of the time don't have a leash or don't have it hooked to a leash, but at this point it is a signal to tell Javelin or Lily that we are going to do some great training. For Javelin especially it tells him we are going out and fun stuff is going to happen so it really has become a positive cue for him. I doubt I will ever take it off except for trials where it would not be allowed, although even now it is effectively faded. As for any kind of training I think you have to read the dog in front of you. BTW thanks for your good wishes for Javelin. We are making slow progress.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Reserrecting this thread for a quickkkkk question

How much does prong size actually matter? hermsprenger goes up to 4mm. I've heard that the smaller ones give better corrections, is this true? I always felt like the corrections on my 1" was much more mild than corrections on the 2.25m collar... micros are made for TEENY dogs, but would they be useful for larger dogs too? 

All I know, is how to use a prong. Sizes.. don't know much about. only that hermspenger 2.25 is reccomended, so its what I got. 

If you use a prong, what size do you use?


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

—-


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Woops dead thread


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

I posted that 8 hours ago, I created the thread. Pretty sure I'm allowed to comment on it..


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Ava. said:


> I posted that 8 hours ago, I created the thread. Pretty sure I'm allowed to comment on it..


Oh I wasnt talking to you. I posted something, realized the thread was dead and then edited it out with “woops”


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

oh,

still would have liked to hear what you had to say, but thanks for clearing that up


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I use a prong when I walk my dog. I use a 3mm. I think thats what I have, can't remember anymore but they are the larger prongs. I had the smaller prongs but didn't like it. I've never had to use any type of correction. I think the first time I used it on him he yipped once and backed up. He never pulls on it. When I use a flat collar on him or any other collar for that matter he will choke and cough. I actually find the prong collar very useful, no pulling, no choking.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

2.25


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