# 10-12 lbs toy vs. 10-12lbs mini?



## dfwcarguy

I am sure this might be a dumb question but.....


Just curious what the body size or major difference would be in a 10-12 lbs toy (oversize) and a 10-12 lbs mini? Our previous poodle was a 10 lbs mini (or so we were told). The breeder we got Kolbi from thinks he will be the same 10-12lbs. Plus we are also considering a pup-brother for him and found someone that has a 10-12 lbs mini. So in theory they would be close to the same size. But what would be the difference in the actual body structure?


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## Tiny Poodles

I'm hardly an expert, but I just think that a toy looks more refined and delicate, while a Mini looks more substantial - like a smaller Standard. I think the face/muzzle will probably be longer in the Mini.
I remember a former poodle mentor telling the story of how when she first started in poodles, she had a couple of oversize Toys, and figured "no problem, I'll just show them as a Mini", but when she did, they practically laughed her out of the ring - though some of the kinder people did sit her down, and point out all of the differences to her!


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## N2Mischief

Well, to tell a mini from a toy it is all about how tall they are. Weight is not in the "standard". So I would think a 10-12 lb mini would be taller and thinner, and a 10-12lb toy would be shorter and thicker. Now my toy is very refined like Tiny Poodles said. She is about 9.5 inches tall and only weighs 3.5 pounds. Granted, she is light, but I would think if you had a 10" toy at 12 pounds, you might have a fat toy.


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## Tiny Poodles

N2Mischief said:


> Well, to tell a mini from a toy it is all about how tall they are. Weight is not in the "standard". So I would think a 10-12 lb mini would be taller and thinner, and a 10-12lb toy would be shorter and thicker. Now my toy is very refined like Tiny Poodles said. She is about 9.5 inches tall and only weighs 3.5 pounds. Granted, she is light, but I would think if you had a 10" toy at 12 pounds, you might have a fat toy.


9.5 inches and 3.5 is very light! Are you sure that you are measuring right? Taylee was 9" and 5 pounds, very refined, and you could see her ribs when she was shaved down! Teaka is 9.5", and 6 pounds of muscle (she is built more like a JRT lol! My Tasia was 7.5", and a lean 3.5 lbs.
When they said "oversize", I took that to mean from Toy Breeding, but taller then 10" , and of course if they are taller, they will weigh more, but the build IS different in Toys and Minis - I just don't know enough to explain the difference LOL. 
Think of it this way - when you look at the pictures in the forum, and there is just a dog in the picture, with nothing else to tell you the actual size, don't you always just KNOW if you are looking at a Toy, Mini, or Standard? You may not be able to tell if it's a 2 pound or a 10 pound Toy, or if another one is a 12 pound mini, or an 18 pound mini, but surely you do know which variety you are looking at, right? So, I think that the question was, what is it about the dog that is telling us that we are looking at a toy and not a mini...even if they are the same height and weight!


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## sulamk

My toy is just around the 2.95 kg mark and just makes 10 " sometimes she just hits the 3 kg mark but is very active and healthy she is 19 months now so don't think she she will get taller. Although she is just a pet she comes from european and south african show lines. Her mother also does agility.


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## Qarza

Your dogs seem very light. My smallest toy, Bridget is 11" at the shoulder and that is the limit according to New Zealand breeding regulations. She is about 3.95 kg which I believe I about 8 pounds. Poppy was sold as a Mini but she is only 1/2" taller than Bridget so what is the difference? 1/2".
Bridget was a purebred with papers, pedigree etc. Poppy we don't know her full history. Is she a large toy? Or is she a Mini? I certainly can't see the difference.


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## fjm

In the UK, the breed registers closed in the 1970s - until then a poodle was registered based on its anticipated adult size, so the same litter could, in theory, produce both minis and toys. (I thought the US registers were still open, with dogs still registered according to size?)

Frankly, I don't think there is much, if any, difference between a large toy and a small mini - the fashion for very small toys has produced some tiny, delicate dogs, but at the top end of the toy size range dogs have much the same bone and muscle as a small miniature.


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## N2Mischief

No, I'm measuring right  She is very long legged (which is way more noticeable now that her show coat is gone). Remember she has possible liver shunt so she has very small features. But two different vets and her groomer say she is not an unhealthy weight. You can easily feel her ribs but there is a small layer of fat over them. We are hoping when she fills out she will gain another pound.


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## Tiny Poodles

N2Mischief said:


> No, I'm measuring right  She is very long legged (which is way more noticeable now that her show coat is gone). Remember she has possible liver shunt so she has very small features. But two different vets and her groomer say she is not an unhealthy weight. You can easily feel her ribs but there is a small layer of fat over them. We are hoping when she fills out she will gain another pound.


Oh, that's right, I'm sorry...But, now that I think about it, Taylee was 3.5lbs when she was a year old - it really took her until middle age to reach her still lean 5lbs, so really that is pretty comparable .


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## dfwcarguy

Thanks for all the info/replies. Our toy is about 5lbs now at 10 1/2 weeks old. So I guess time will tell how big he will get!


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## dfwcarguy

Tiny Poodles said:


> Think of it this way - when you look at the pictures in the forum, and there is just a dog in the picture, with nothing else to tell you the actual size, don't you always just KNOW if you are looking at a Toy, Mini, or Standard? You may not be able to tell if it's a 2 pound or a 10 pound Toy, or if another one is a 12 pound mini, or an 18 pound mini, but surely you do know which variety you are looking at, right? So, I think that the question was, what is it about the dog that is telling us that we are looking at a toy and not a mini...even if they are the same height and weight!



That is one reason I took this picture a couple of weeks back....lol


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## N2Mischief

DFW I have a similar picture of Misha at 12 weeks.


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## Siskojan

Beautiful little dogs but I find them scary compared to my great hunk of a standard who got his paw under my foot twice today already and shrugged it off. He's being clingy cos his dad is away from home.


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## Qarza

Don't get confused with us talking lbs and kgs. Always check what symbol we put after our weight and use a converter. Never assume we are talking lbs.


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## Tiny Poodles

Siskojan said:


> Beautiful little dogs but I find them scary compared to my great hunk of a standard who got his paw under my foot twice today already and shrugged it off. He's being clingy cos his dad is away from home.


Oh you get used to moving a different way - never wear shoes, and around here, we call the way that we walk around the house "the poodle shuffle" lol!


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## dfwcarguy

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh you get used to moving a different way - never wear shoes, and around here, we call the way that we walk around the house "the poodle shuffle" lol!


At Kolbi's age....you never go without shoes! lol Otherwise you may end up missing a toe!


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## calarche

Wow I didn't realize how small they really are! 

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## Tiny Poodles

dfwcarguy said:


> At Kolbi's age....you never go without shoes! lol Otherwise you may end up missing a toe!


LOL!
If we wore shoes, it's the tiny poodles that would wind up missing a toe - or a leg!


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## Smurfette's Mom

My toy is 5.75lbs at 13 weeks

Pooh Bear's mom


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## Manxcat

Pippin is 10lb (ish) 4.6kg, and is about 10 inches. She's a chunky monkey, very muscular but the vet is very happy with her weight and size.

We also do the poodle shuffle... had 20 odd years of doing the cat shuffle so got it down to a fine art!!!


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## Sweetp

According to AKC, Miniature Poodles are over 10 but under 15 inches; Toys are 10 inches or under.

Kaylee is 7" and weighs 2.8 lbs. she used to weigh 3.2 lbs. but lost a few ounces since Kaylee's loss and has remained at 2.8 lbs. She's not skinny though.


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## Qarza

We have never stood on our dogs they tend to follow us father than walk under our feet. I think they learn early on to keep away from our feet. Our biggest problem is the cats who entwine themselves around your legs and their tails stick right out. They are always getting trod on.


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## Sweetp

Qarza said:


> We have never stood on our dogs they tend to follow us father than walk under our feet. I think they learn early on to keep away from our feet.


Same here. Our toys never got stepped on. I think they're very aware that they're living in a world of giants and they always keep out of the way.


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## plr

My toy is oversized at 10 1/2 to 11" and weighs 7 lbs. He is 9 months old. I expect him to gain a little more weight. Based on weight charts out there and his weight between 12 and 15 weeks - I think he'll weigh around 8 to 9 lb. as an adult.


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## Joelly

dfwcarguy said:


> Thanks for all the info/replies. Our toy is about 5lbs now at 10 1/2 weeks old. So I guess time will tell how big he will get!


Charlie was 5lbs at 10 weeks and now he is 14lbs. He is between 10-11 inch tall. He is a mix toy poodle though. It seems to me that your toy maybe an oversize one.

The vet can usually tell how big he will get. My vet predicted how big Charlie will be too and he is right on.


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## Joelly

SweetP,
OMG! Kaylee is so breathlessly cute!!!


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## CT Girl

plr said:


> My toy is oversized at 10 1/2 to 11" and weighs 7 lbs. He is 9 months old. I expect him to gain a little more weight. Based on weight charts out there and his weight between 12 and 15 weeks - I think he'll weigh around 8 to 9 lb. as an adult.


My toy is the same height and the same weight as plr. He is two.


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## Tiny Poodles

Sweetp said:


> According to AKC, Miniature Poodles are over 10 but under 15 inches; Toys are 10 inches or under.
> 
> Kaylee is 7" and weighs 2.8 lbs. she used to weigh 3.2 lbs. but lost a few ounces since Kaylee's loss and has remained at 2.8 lbs. She's not skinny though.


She is fabulous!


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## Tiny Poodles

Sweetp said:


> Same here. Our toys never got stepped on. I think they're very aware that they're living in a world of giants and they always keep out of the way.


My girls are so well trained to stay out of trouble, if they even see me begin to do something, like change a light bulb, they will all gather in the corner of the room.

I remember once when I took Taylee to a "tricks" class, she was a superstar, until the trainer asked us to do the thing where the dog weaves through your legs as you walk - I said, not a chance, she has spent her whole life training NOT to do that!


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## Tiny Poodles

plr said:


> My toy is oversized at 10 1/2 to 11" and weighs 7 lbs. He is 9 months old. I expect him to gain a little more weight. Based on weight charts out there and his weight between 12 and 15 weeks - I think he'll weigh around 8 to 9 lb. as an adult.


I kind of think those weight charts seem to underestimate (or they were developed for Yorkies and Chi's, who seem to stop growing much younger then Toy Poodles).
My personal formula has been double the weight @ 16 weeks, plus half to a full pound.


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## plr

I was talking about the toy poodle weight charts you can find online, sorry I didn't clarify that. My guy has learned to stay away from our feet, he got stepped on a couple of times. My sister uses a cane and has a tough time going up and down stairs. Remy has learned to either go first or to wait until the stairs are clear before going up or down. Generally he goes up after we do and down before us.


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## PoodlePaws

My toys were BIG babies. Don't know height, but they are both no more than 9 lbs. 


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## Rhett'smom

Jippy, aka bratty mamma monster, at 8 weeks weighed in at 2.68 pounds, at 14 weeks he was 4.3 pounds.. He has his last shot Saturday at 16 weeks so I will see what he weighs now. But his big brother Rhett will be 1 year on the 14th is a healthy 83 pounds!! But let me finish grooming him to get the weight!! Poodle hair can be very heavy!! Lol!! 
Jippy should be around 5 to 7 pounds unless Rhett squashes him for being a bratt!!!


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## Tiny Poodles

plr said:


> *I was talking about the toy poodle weight charts you can find online, sorry I didn't clarify that.* My guy has learned to stay away from our feet, he got stepped on a couple of times. My sister uses a cane and has a tough time going up and down stairs. Remy has learned to either go first or to wait until the stairs are clear before going up or down. Generally he goes up after we do and down before us.


I know, but I was thinking it's the exact same chart everywhere for yorkies and chi's, and maybe it was first developed for them, because it runs very low for every poodle I've owned (as in, it says my 5 pounder should have been 3 pounds, and my 6 pounder should be 4).
Double their [email protected] 16 weeks, plus a pound is exactly what mine all turned out to be - from my 2.5 pounder to my 6 pounder.


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