# Toy Puppy, raw?



## CiciPosh (Dec 22, 2016)

We pick up our baby (toy poodle) on January 10th & it can't come soon enough! Anyhow, it's given me time to research even more. My husband, our two children & I are mostly raw, whole food, plant based, vegans & are very aware about the foods that fuel our body. 

We want to extend our lifestyle to our new baby. Don't worry, I know that dogs are omnivores. 

Anyone have experience with this? Tips and advice, greatly appreciated


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I don't think a fragile toy poodle puppy should be fed a primarily vegan diet .......too much risk in not doing it right in the supplements that these tiny ones need to thrive.... Perhaps after the pup matures and all the growth plates have closed and you are out of that puppy glycemic stage you might use a commercial vegan dog food. BTW dogs are not really omnivores at all.....they are opportunist feeders in that if meat is not available they will eat vegetable matter to survive...........but cannot thrive.

Another matter is that if you use supplements that are vegan that mimic the important animal-based protein (D3) it won't be natural, but man made (chemical) The plant based D2 is what is used in commercial vegetarian dog food and it is not used as effeciently as the animal protein.......this is important as dogs do not produce enough of their own!
Dogs that are fed vegetarian commercial food usually are fed that way because of allergies and other health or gastrointestinal issues!
JMO!!! Good Luck with your new baby and I am curious, have you spoken to your breeder about this?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

A raw diet for dogs should be mainly meat and bone, in the area of 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% organ meat (about half of which should be liver). Fruit and vegetables are optional, and if fed raw should be pureed - dogs can't digest cellulose. Eggs and dairy can replace some of the meat, but variety of protein sources is key - chicken, beef, lamb, turkey. It is essential to get the calcium/phosphorus balance right, especially for puppies, and with a toy puppy I would be concerned about changing the diet too quickly due to the dangers of hypoglycaemia if they do not eat little and often. While dogs are not considered obligatory carnivores (unlike cats), few people would argue that a vegetarian diet is optimal for them, let alone vegan, and a raw vegetarian or vegan diet would mean slow starvation because of their inability to digest it.

I think raw feeding for dogs can be very difficult for vegans if you have issues about handling meat. If you are OK with that, the easiest way of getting the portions right for a very small puppy would be to use ground meat - either a complete mix intended for dogs, or additive free from the supermarket. If making your own I would start with ground chicken, beef liver if you can find it, otherwise lamb or pork, kidney ditto, and eggs. Puree the liver and kidney in a blender, and mix a scant 2 ounces into 1 pound of chicken together with the egg. Dry the eggshell, grind it to a powder, and add one teaspoonful to your mix (this provides the right amount of calcium). Freeze in ice cube trays, and defrost one or two cubes for each meal. You can add a few ounces of cooked or pureed vegetables to the mix, but avoid onions which can be dangerous for dogs. There are a number of companies offering ready balanced frozen nuggets if you don't want to make your own.

There is lots of good information on dog diets (including vegetarian and vegan) here: DogAware.com: Diet & Health Info for Man's Best Friend


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## CiciPosh (Dec 22, 2016)

I would never feed a dog a vegan diet. I was stating that we were whole food Plant Based vegans and know the importance of not consuming things that our bodies don't thrive off of. 
Thanks anyway


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## CiciPosh (Dec 22, 2016)

I see. I was just trying to do what's "best" as I watched a Ted Talk recommended on here that line up with our experiences and beliefs. Showing how dogs are more prone to cancer living shorter lives and one factor being the heavy reliance on processed foods...
I was curious if anyone else did this with Toy Poodles. If it's not recommended, his diet doesn't need to be 100 raw, I just want to feed him well.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

CiciPosh said:


> I would never feed a dog a vegan diet. I was stating that we were whole food Plant Based vegans and know the importance of not consuming things that our bodies don't thrive off of.
> Thanks anyway


I thought that might be the case - but many vegans still balk at handling raw meat, even when they believe it to be the best diet for their dogs! Fortunately there are plenty of good quality options if you find it to much to cope with.


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## CiciPosh (Dec 22, 2016)

Are dogs carnivores, like cats? I read that they were omnivores and it made sense as I see people on here feeding their poodles other things besides meat... also in real life.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Cats are obligate carnivores - there are amino acids that they cannot make themselves and can only get by eating meat. Dogs are designed by nature to eat mainly meat, but can also digest some other foods, although not as efficiently. They are not omnivores in the way that humans or pigs are omnivores - more preferential carnivores that will eat almost anything if it is that or starving! Processed dog foods often contain large proportions of cereals and other vegetable matter as these tend to be cheaper than meat. A toy poodle puppy has a very small stomach, possibly filled by less than a tablespoonful of food, and that tiny quantity has to provide all the nutrition the puppy needs to thrive and to grow. It makes sense to provide the highest quality, most digestible food that you can, and for dogs that means a meat-based diet. But it is equally important that the diet provides all the necessary nutrients in the right balance - vets have seen the damage done by owners getting this balance wrong, which is one reason they tend to favour commercial processed food that has a guaranteed analysis! It is perfectly possible to create a home-made diet, cooked or raw, that meets all your pup's requirements, but it does take research, thought and planning - for many people commercial raw nuggets provide many of the benefits of raw feeding without the anxiety of getting it wrong.


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## CiciPosh (Dec 22, 2016)

Thank you, that makes sense. I definitely want to do the best for him but safely, for sure. 
What's the best food recommended for a toy poodle?


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

CiciPosh said:


> Thank you, that makes sense. I definitely want to do the best for him but safely, for sure.
> What's the best food recommended for a toy poodle?


Some poodles can be very finicky. Mine is. A good choice is Acana or Fromm. Those are the two brands he would eat without a fuss. Now both my dogs are on a vet food because my little chihuahua has urinary problems. This food works fine also.

To make him eat, I have great success with a little warm water just to cover the bottom of the bowl, then kibbles, then just a little bit of canned food that I mix with everything. He loves that ! I buy Ceasar canned food, which is really not great, but one plate of Ceasar lasts at least 7-8 days, that's how little he gets. Mine is an adult.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It is best to stick to whatever his breeder has been feeding for the first few weeks - changing homes can be very stressful for young pups, so you want to keep things as stable as possible for him. It's very important that toy poodle puppies eat regularly to avoid hypoglycaemia (low blood sugar) which can be dangerous - I would have a little minced chicken ready in the freezer, and a few eggs to hand to tempt him just in case. Once he has settled in you will find there are nearly as many recommendations on the best food as there are PF members! 

The basic choices are kibble, canned or other processed moist food, ready made frozen raw, freeze dried raw, home cooked or home prepared raw, or a combination of several of these. All have their pros and cons. As a very general rule foods that are advertised everywhere and stocked by the big supermarket chains tend to be lower quality; better quality is usually reflected in a higher price; it is more economical to make your own raw or home cooked than to buy it ready prepared; but there are always exceptions! A toy poodle puppy will eat tiny quantities, so price becomes less of an issue - I would avoid anything that comes in large bags as kibble can quickly go stale, and the same goes for large tins, although you can always portion and freeze the contents. If you decide to use a commercial food there are a number of useful websites evaluating the quality of the ingredients, etc. I'm in the UK, but I am sure US members will be able to point you in the right direction.


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## CiciPosh (Dec 22, 2016)

Thank you for all of your advice! I am familiar with the higher quality processed dog food & know how much better that is than the ones with tons of fillers.
Yes, I understand that if we feel the need to switch his food that we have to slowly transition him.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

CiciPosh said:


> We pick up our baby (toy poodle) on January 10th & it can't come soon enough! Anyhow, it's given me time to research even more. My husband, our two children & I are mostly raw, whole food, plant based, vegans & are very aware about the foods that fuel our body.
> 
> We want to extend our lifestyle to our new baby. Don't worry, I know that dogs are omnivores.
> 
> Anyone have experience with this? Tips and advice, greatly appreciated


Hi CiciPosh - I eat whole foods, plant based (Dr John McDougal) for my health and I know this way of eating is optimal for humans.

I don't know much about dog nutrition, especially for tpoo babies except that you should keep your baby on the same food that he was fed by the breeder at the beginning while you slowly transition him to any new food. I also haven't figured out what is optimal for my dog, but she has colitis so I am making her food following my vet's instructions.

And welcome to PF and I hope you post photos about your new baby when he arrives.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Welcome! You can absolutely feed your new puppy raw. In my option, it's the best and most appropriate diet for a dog or cat. Dogs are facultative carnivores. They eat meat but can also survive on a plant based diet for a short amount of time if needed. Dogs have several copies of the gene needed to digest carbs, so they can handle a diet with some carbs, but it isn't optimal (fun fact, both dogs and wolves have more copies of this gene than dingoes do). I feed raw to both my dog and cat, and my future spoo breeder has fed her poodles and other dogs raw for over 30 years. They're all exceptionally healthy and long lived. 

There are a lot of raw feeding groups in Facebook you can join for help. One I can recommend is Raw Food Diet for Dogs and Cats (Prey Model Raw). We have many members who are vegetarian/vegan but want to feed their pet a species appropriate diet. It's strictly prey model, meaning no fruits and veggies, and there's a list of meat resources by area in the group files. You can leave your pup on the food the breeder fed for a bit while you do your research, then switch to raw. Whole prey is great for little dogs because of the small bones (and super convenient), you just have to get past the ick factor. I feed my cat a lot of day old chicks, mice, small rats, and quail. Or you can do your own, which is generally cheaper.


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## CiciPosh (Dec 22, 2016)

Skylar: Cool! Always fun to "meet" other Vegans. Thanks for your advice.
Oshagcj: Wow, good to hear! Will definitely check out your resources. Thank you!


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