# Need some honesty here



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Hopefully Gorky will come post here.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

Yes, when the ones with the older poodles/breeders post, maybe they can shed light on testing.

If I remember correctly, someone did post to my response on one of these threads, that just because the parents are tested and everything came back looking good, 
It doesn't mean that your dog won't develop these diseases.

True? False?

Thanks!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

There are many on this forum that have adopted, fostered and purchased from mills or BYB. 

We have BYB standard poodle, clearly the parents were not tested. MY BF picked him up on a whim to be honest - long story short. He only paid $250 for him. He will be 2 this year. He has been healthy so far. Thank God. Do I worry, yes. We will likely do some testing on him later this year. I need a little peace of mind.

Here is the thing, everyone has to live and learn at some point. If your deposit was not big I would walk away. Not everyone has a lot of money to throw around......thats a tough spot to be in. But I know the deposit I have down on my future poodle is about 40% of the total cost. This dog is coming from a top, reputable and wonderful breeder. I did my homework before I chose her from about 5 breeders. BUT I did not know this until this forum helped me out.

Good lines can also have problems and health issues - you never know. Coming from healthy tested parents increases the chances your pup will be healthier. BUT its no guarantee.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Persia said:


> Yes, when the ones with the older poodles/breeders post, maybe they can shed light on testing.
> 
> If I remember correctly, someone did post to my response on one of these threads, that just because the parents are tested and everything came back looking good,
> It doesn't mean that your dog won't develop these diseases.
> ...


Correct


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

BigDog, from what I saw on their website it does not look like the deposit was all that terrible. I think it would be worth it to walk away. Why support a BYB when you can support a reputable breeder who is dedicated to improving the health and quality of the breed.

Here is the thing, poodles can have long healthy lives. My first spoo died at 11 from cancer. I will never know what caused it but I can't help but wonder if overvaccinating was a culprit. Regardless, I felt as though we were cut short. Many people have standards that live to be 14 or 15.

I am not sure how long mastiffs live, but I would assume standards might live longer? I would say most probably live to the range of 11-15.


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

You need to consider whether you can pay for treatment of the disease your dog isn't tested for. While testing doesn't mean your dog won't ever get sick, it lets you know that your chances are less (assuming parents are clear). Some of those disease require treatment for the rest of the life and can get expensive.


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

I can't imagine how hard it would be to walk away, but I might. Not only b/c of the testing, but what that might _say _about the breeder that they didn't do the testing before (or after) breeding?

Whatever deposit you have paid is nothing compared to the costs and heartache. 

Hopefully those with experiences on both sides can respond, too.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

It's a crapshoot either way, but less of a crapshoot if testing has been done.

I have one poodle, Matrix, with hip dysplasia and epilepsy. He was our foster puppy for a Guide Dog organization. I would have assumed they would've tested the parents, but apparently not. I know hip dysplasia can pop up from parents with clear hips, but the WHOLE litter was affected, so something was wrong there. Epilepsy is not testable, but if they had researched both sire and dam pedigree it's likely in there somewhere.

Mitchell came from health tested parents. He has kidney disease. The vets are unsure if it is genetic or due to tainted food as a pup. 

It is devastating watching Matrix suffer from hip dysplasia and worse so when he has a seizure. It is heart wrenching knowing I have less than 3 years with Mitchell, and the end of his life will be so painful for him.

I would rather have a high chance at getting a healthy, well balanced pup, than just hoping I got the healthy pup from the litter. 

In my opinion, if you're not going to get a health tested puppy, you might as well adopt a puppy or dog from the shelter.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Here is the thing, poodles can have long healthy lives. My first spoo died at 11 from cancer. I will never know what caused it but I can't help but wonder if overvaccinating was a culprit. Regardless, I felt as though we were cut short. Many people have standards that live to be 14 or 15.


Millie, so sad to hear. Cancer can strike the best of us.
Cancer can be environmental, too. In my health texts, I have read about cases about lawn treatments and dogs' cuts on their paws. Also, about healthy golfers and cancer.

You have to think about all the factors. 
You get one whose parents had a green light, but it doesn't mean you won't see the inside of a vet's office.
Your dog can be sensitve, allergies, stomach problems, fur problems, ear, etc.

In this case, a health guarantee and refund in a certain amount of time is in order.

How much is the dog?
Once you paid the price of the dog, believe me, the wallet doesn't close there, either.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I personally would not buy a puppy under those circumstances. If you are willing to gamble, why not rescue instead and save a life rather than support a backyard breeder?

I also hope Gorky chimes in with her experience.


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## Birdie (Jun 28, 2009)

I bought Desmond from a BYB, I sincerely doubt his parents were tested (and sometimes wonder if his litter was even planned at all). He is just about to be 2 years old, and has been healthy as a horse. No skin, ear, eye, joint, or other internal problems so far. However, I have my eyes on him and am very worried about the future. I have no clue if he could develop this or that, and really wish I had known more about his parents. 

I will NEVER get a pup from someone who doesn't health test their dogs from now on. Sure, there is the chance that something can pop up in a health tested breeding anyway, but it is so much safer than just blindly breeding the dogs without knowing what they carry. That's reckless, imo. I can't properly tell you to walk away from this puppy, since I know you've been waiting to get him and I don't know what I'd do in your position. Desmond has been fine so far, but I believe he is likely to develop issues as he ages. Even still, he'll hopefully live to be 10-15 years old.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

PaddleAddict said:


> I personally would not buy a puppy under those circumstances. If you are willing to gamble, why not rescue instead and save a life rather than support a backyard breeder?


Are people saying it is a BYB because they do no testing, yet breed and sell? 
Just wondering, I'm new to the 'dog world.'

Can she ask for the parents' health records? Is that good enough? 
Hopefully, the breeder at the very least is an honest person.

Also, is a tuxedo a phantom poodle? 

This is tricky. It is great and honorable to rescue a dog, but some people do have preferences, so it is always not possible.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm another one of the people who bought from a BYB, Elphaba doesn't seem to have any health problems right now but whose to say what might happen a few years down the road. 
I pray that as a good poodle owner I'm doing everything that I can to make her life happy and healthy but I don't know and probably will never know what health issues lie behind her. 
and thats the truly scary part about buying from a BYB...you will never know what might pop up or when =\


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I am calling it a BYB because they have a big logo flashing that they accept paypal, breed labradoodles as well as poodles, do not state anything on their website to suggest that they prove their stock, charge more for browns and parti's than for creams and may or may do complete genetic testing. 

BigDog, I know how badly you have been wanting this puppy. And it actually breaks my heart to have to tell you that this breeder is sketchy. Part of me wanted to just let you carry on without tainting your excitement. But I also feel obligated to tell you that there are numerous red flags. Just take all of the information and make the decision you think is best.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Testing is important. In some cases you can actively avoid simple recessive disorders such as NE, VWD or DM. In others you increase your chances of healthy with tested parents: hips, cardio, CERF, SA. However, testing is not a guarantee against many Poodle disorders especially ones like Addisons, JRD or Epilepsy.

Here is my take on it. I've seen your breeder's web site. They breed a whole lot of Poodles and Doodles. They are making good money with their relatively high volume breeding program. Personally I would not want to financially support a breeder who would not take some of that money and spend it to do what testing they could. After all, testing not only protects buyers, it also does its part to protect the dogs.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

BigDog said:


> I need to hear from people that have bought Standard Poodle Puppies that have not been health tested.
> Need to know how many have had problems because of this and how many have not had any problems with their health(how old is your dog).
> I just wanted a Standard Poodle and wanted a Tuxedo because I fell in love with the color.I have found that pup but now am being told it's too much of a health risk because parents are not tested for everything.
> I really thought I wanted a poodle but now am not even sure because if they have all of these health problems that is exactly what I don't want because I wanted a large dog that lives a longer life than a Mastiff does =(


Both of my standards come from private adoption (rescue) situation. Romeo came to me at 12 weeks from a couple who had him since he was 8 weeks old. They were getting a divorce and there was no room for a pup anymore.  The so called breeder wouldn't take the dog back. He is most definitely BYB boy, had no health testing, no show lines, nothing. He is currently 6.5 years old, happy, healthy (knock of wood). Brandy is 5 also no health testing, champions, nothing and no health issues so far (again knocking on wood). I paid $100 rehoming fee for Romeo and I have no idea what my hubby paid for Brandy as he brought her home. Ideally, when some time in the future I get a spoo from a reputable breeder and pay the top going rate, I expect all the health testing, championship titles, great pedigrees. While health testing and show titles and clean bill of health is no guarantee, it does stack the odds in your favor. But, to play the devil's advocate, I know three poodles from a well know breeder in Nor.Cal, who shows and champions her dogs, health tests and three of her dogs owned by acquaintances of mine all have addison's. It really is a crapshoot and from what I've seen, poodles are still much healthier than many, many other large breeds. My guys still play with three different spoos that are over 11 years of age and are not really showing too many signs of slowing down. 

Best of luck to you with your decision.


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## Gorky (Jul 14, 2009)

Bigdog, we purchased Gorky our first pet ever. We were not knowledgeable about the importance of health testing and thought the breeder we went to was reputable. We purchased Gorky without health testing as the breeders did not believe in doing the tests. Although we were blessed to have him in our lives, Gorky, at the tender age of 17 months passed away due to addison's disease and severe hip dysphasia. He was a sweet, beautiful and amazing dog for the short time we had him and he and we as owners needn't have had to suffer from the inbreeding of the breeders we chose. Of course, dogs can suffer health conditions even with health testing, but the variables are considerably lower. We also had no health guarantee and when I approached the breeder in question, we did not even receive an apology. We are heartbroken over the tragedy of Gorky, but we have learned important lessons from this experience to search for a breeder who does health tests with a health guarantee and one who is ethical in their breeding practices. One can get quickly attached to a puppy, but first one must err on the side of caution to guarantee that you and your pup have a long life together. Ours was cut way too short. I would search for your breeder on Poodlehealthregistry.org and see if there are any underlying health conditions in their breed. If there isn't any mention of your breeder there, I would have a real cause for concern. I wish you well in your search for a spoo and hope you heed some of our suggestions.


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## Gorky (Jul 14, 2009)

In addition to what I have said above, illness and genetic conditions can be very expensive in treatment so to have a better chance of a healthy pup it might be wise to pay more in the beginning by going to an ethical breeder. You can always find a spoo from a rescue instead of contributing to a puppy mill or backyard breeder, but unfortunately one has to have a little money saved up for the unexpected problems that can arise.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

My first schnauzer came from a pet store and needless to say he came from parents that were not health-tested. He was and is still my heart dog. He was sweet and smart. BUT he had suffered from almost every single genetic diseases that are prone to the breed. He had gone through 4 surgeries to have his bladder stones removed. He had several episodes of acute pancreatitis and since then he had to be put on prescription diet. I had to collect his urine for testing every month. He had to go to the vet for IV fluid for his kidney disease WEEKLY in his final year. I had to take my work with me to the vet clinic to stay with him every Friday afternoon. He had multiple emergency room visits that cost at least $800 EACH and these visits happened between 1996-2000. His insurance premium was incredibly high but I had no choice because I knew he needed that kind of coverage.

Do I miss Yonkie my miniature schnauzer? Yes, very much. My dad still misses this grandchild. Did I enjoy the 10 years I had him? Yes. However, if I could go back in time, I wouldn't get a pet with no health tests. The heartbreak was unbearable. He had to go through all those unnecessary pain because I was so stupid. I still remember how it feels like to pat on the scars from all those stitches. I unintentionally supported pet stores that get their pets from these heartless "breeders". I unintentionally put this and other dogs in pain. I put his parents, especially the dam, in pain.

The whole experience was so painful that I thought I was not good enough to have any kind of pets anymore. I felt so guilty and I dare not to take in another pet until 6 years after Yonkie's death. I spent those 6 years reflecting, researching …. Yes, my health-tested puppy may die immaturely. That's life. Things happen. But at least I know I have done everything I can to prevent that.

So if you want some honesty here, I would say: No, I would not get a pet (poodle or not) from breeders that don't do health testing.


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

I've been in your shoes. I bought a dog I fell in love with. 

Liberty's dam was health tested, her father was not. She developed Addison's disease just before the age of two. There's not a good test for Addison's yet, but it is familial/genetic. What the breeder didn't do was a thorough health search of her pedigree. I wouldn't trade my girl for anything, and don't regret even one penny spent on her health care because she's paid me back 100x over. But next time, I'm going to a breeder who health tests both parents as well as has available the lifetime health records of the poodles in her pedigree. Another side note, her dam died of bloat at age 6. That's also genetic.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Vegas's line is all health tested, I'm confident he's going to be fine, but things CAN pop up.

Vienna was back yard bred, and I found a dog back in her line that I heard has produced addisons/elipsy, couldn't remember which, and she's had what's looked to be a seizure, but it wasn't anything major. She's a big girl, so I worry about HD. The woman I adopted her from told me I could breed her, but I spayed her within a couple months of having her.

I will never get another puppy from someone who doesn't health test + do something with their dogs like show/field work, though I would adopt one from a rescue or shelter, since you can't always be sure where they're coming from anyway.


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## Feathersprings (Jul 15, 2010)

It is so hard to advise on this...Hoolie isnt nearly old enough(11mos.) to have any idea of what may come in the future. We bought him from what I call "pet breeder" not someone that breeds lots of dogs but a litter here and there , no big websites or advertising etc. They have some testing done but not much. Their dogs were well cared for pets that they bred..In the past i have had dogs from "top" lines in other breeds including some imports that ended up with genetic problems. Of course at that time people didnt do the testing they can do now. I would be interested to know the approx. percentages of Poodles that carry these specific problems. Is there a place to get this info? I would think if known carriers and their offspring are being tested we might be able to judge that risk to some extent. Before writing off Poodles though be assured , most breeds have their own problems.Sometimes you just dont hear about them until you start researching and you find them, it can be scary with any breed. Sorry you are not feeling good about your puppy choice. Im glad i bought Hoolie before joining the forum It really upset me at first to read all the testing/non-testing stuff. I love forums and love all of the info and education you can get but they can also cause paranoia when you dont feed the "best" , buy the "best" , etc. Im sure you will figure out what is best for you and your family and situation. Whatever you decide I hope you can feel happy or comfortable about your decision ..


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

BigDog said:


> Need to know how many have had problems because of this and how many have not had any problems with their health(how old is your dog).
> I just wanted a Standard Poodle and wanted a Tuxedo because I fell in love with the color.I have found that pup but now am being told it's too much of a health risk because parents are not tested for everything.(


Testing doesn't prevent disease, per se, any more than wearing a seat belt prevents a car accident. 

There is a primary and secondary advantage in buying from a breeder who tests. First, if the breeder tests for heritable diseases/conditions, and does not breed dogs that carry those genes, the odds of a healthy long-lived puppy are better. Second, a breeder who tests is one who is clearly interested in the welfare of the dogs he/she produces, is more likely to be a resource is anything goes wrong, and is more likely to be actively working to better the breed, so should be encouraged.

I would RUN from a purported Poodle breeder who also breeds doodle crosses. This is clearly not someone who has the interests of individual dogs nor of the overall breed at heart.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

As a general rule, less testing is done in the UK and Europe than in the US - but where there is a proven, reliable genetic test I can see no reason for not making use of it. Hip and knee testing is also a given, in breeds prone to problems. Other issues to ask about are the longevity of the parents and close relatives, and the COI of the puppy (see Poodle Longevity for information on the impact of inbreeding on longevity). 

I believe that many of the problems in pedigree dogs are down to narrowing of the gene pool - one geneticist has estimated that to maintain genetic diversity in pure bred dogs with average population sizes requires breeding from 50% of the dogs. So I don't entirely agree with the idea of breeding only from dogs that have excelled in the ring or in sport - there are simply not enough of them. One huge advantage of working with a very experienced show breeder is that he or she will know the detailed history of practically every dog in their puppies' pedigree, including health issues and age at death. 

As others have said, it is about playing the odds. Testing shifts them a little more in your favour. Buying from a breeder who not only tests, but is passionate about breeding healthy, long lived dogs shifts them even further. But do check the COI, over as many generations as possible.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I am calling it a BYB because they have a big logo flashing that they accept paypal, breed labradoodles as well as poodles, do not state anything on their website to suggest that they prove their stock, charge more for browns and parti's than for creams and may or may do complete genetic testing.


I didn't see the site. :ban:

Yes, someone breeding more than one breed is a red flag.
I'm not sure how I feel about doodles, but breeders charging more for colors and runts is BS! 

It sounds like the breeder is catering to the buyers rather than the poodle breed. With all the money they are making, they should have enough by now to improve their programs, and start testing dogs with great potential to help enhance the breed.

Anything 'poo' irks me! Elegant fine poodle facial features with stumpy shih tzu or maltese legs are a BIG noooooooo!

Our poodles need their long graceful limbs! 
I read about bug-eye toy poodles on here, and now every time I see them, I think about that thread.


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## BigDog (Dec 14, 2010)

The parents COI is as follows:
Mother:
10 gen. 2.62%
12 gen. 3.94%

Father:
10 gen. 1.64%
12 gen. 2.21%
I know this is not everything but does show there has not been alot of linebreeding if Im understanding this correctly?


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

If you could send me the names of the parents privately, I may have some insight on them- I have a computer head for parti pedigrees.
 Carole


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## BigDog (Dec 14, 2010)

deleted


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks,
The biggest risk I see is S.A., from the combination of Kit-Sue's All leg's at Sunset on one side, and Litilann's Roland of Shelzar on the other.
I have a bitch with Pioneer's Texas Size Spot as a maternal great grandsire, he has turned out to be a genetic nightmare- I will probably never breed her.
The saving grace in the pedigree is Cherdon's Heza-Jem In Mi Eye, by far the safest of all the parti dogs.
The risk is moderate- but the parents, esp. the sire, should be tested for S.A., and the result published.
If you get a lifetime warrenty on the pup, or a SA test on the sire, I would not recommend against it.
Carole
sire:
PHR Pedigree Database
dam:
PHR Pedigree Database

Note-For the price I think you may be paying, an SA test is the least the breeder should do......


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

HD is in the pedigree as well - great grandparent I think. Is that not a concern Dogsinstyle? I am still learning how to determine if something is significant or not. It personally makes me nervous!

Bloat is in there as well. That same great grandparent produced offspring that bloated. Henry had a grandparent or great grandparent that produced a dog with bloat and he bloated. I know that if I ever see this in a pedigree again I will either a) get a different puppy or b) prophylactic gastropexy.


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

Chocolate Millie,
I need to add- 98% of the probelms in this pedigree are un-reported. Just in the case of "Spot", I know of at least 10 early deaths, and probably 20 additional various cases of AIHA (only one reported to PHR), spondylasis (sp) hip dysplasia, etc. Spot himself died fairly young.
There are so many unreported cases of SA coming from Te-Awa's Justcallme Karlee and her decendants that it gives me nighmares.
PHR is a help, but asking asking asking anyone who knows poodles is even better.
Carole


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

Another addition here, I am in no way slamming the breeder- I am looking purely at the risk assesment of the pedigree, from knowledge I have off-label.
This is a fairly low-risk parti, as far as parti's go, even without testing.
Carole


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## okilayla (May 25, 2010)

He is adorable! I have a rescue mini that I am sure didn't have any testing. She is around 5-6 and perfectly healthy. I am a little put off by the breeders contract though. It says 
*Should the veterinarian find this puppy to 
have serious life threatening illness or disease, (excluding 
parasites, umbilical hernias, coccidia or giardia) breeder 
will replace your puppy with another puppy of equal value 
when one is available. You will be 
allowed to keep your pup and you can use the new puppy 
to sell and pay vet bills or in the event the puppy has to be 
put down the new puppy can be a replacement*.

This seems strange to me. She also makes it pretty clear that she won't take a puppy back for any reason. They want you to sell the replacement pup to pay your vet bills? What?
Good luck with your decision.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

okilayla said:


> He is adorable! I have a rescue mini that I am sure didn't have any testing. She is around 5-6 and perfectly healthy. I am a little put off by the breeders contract though. It says
> *Should the veterinarian find this puppy to
> have serious life threatening illness or disease, (excluding
> parasites, umbilical hernias, coccidia or giardia) breeder
> ...


Yikes.


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## jazzi480 (Sep 19, 2010)

Jazzi and Ella are from untested parents, I know nothing of their pedigree and are from a uninformed person that owns the sire and dam. Jazzi is 3 and Ella will be 3 in May. Jazzi was impulse and Ella felt more like a rescue. Jazzi and Ella are full sisters, consecutive litters. I met both sire and dam and were well taken care of at the time but knew there were issues on the horizon. 
The "breeder" was in serious finacial trouble and my purchase price for Ella went to pay to spay her dam, so at least some good came out of it. 
As for their health, they seem very healthy aside from some grain intolerances and Ella has had problems with ear infections, now under control.
I suspect that Ella may be hypothyroid and I will have her tested at her yearly check-up in Feb. I knew the risk I was taking, but also felt that I was saving them from having to go to rescue. 
I am not sorry, but do worry some. As others have said there is still no guarrantee, but to add, I paid 300$ each which was less than adopting a young rescue. I did check into rescue and was turned down because of my job. 
We love our girls beyond words and will do everything in our power to keep them healthy and happy.


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## LittleRiver (Jan 23, 2011)

You got some great info here, and I agree, why spend the rest of the money and support this breeder and *probably* end up with a dog that will have issues down the road?
I come from the Labrador world, and am just now starting in poodles. I can say that even though health testing is done, a dog can have issues. I've got a very well bred Lab, she's 2 now but has had on and off hind-leg lameness that cannot be diagnosed by even the best vets, she has horrible allergies that manifest in skin lesions, and gunky ears. However, she comes from great stock and her littermates are fine. It happens.
However, I'd much rather take the gamble on a puppy from a reputable breeder, from health-tested parents, than not, if I'm purchasing a dog. It is VERY important.

I also feel, as EDUCATED dog owners (because that is what you are now, since you know the difference between a BYB and a good breeder and have been given the advice you have before bringing the puppy home), we need to avoid mills and BYBs, in hopes they are unable to sell puppies and quit breeding. IMO to not support these people is one of the most important things we can do, for the health of our breed(s).

I know your heart is broken, but it's important to not base your decisions on color, but on the actual dog. I'm sure you can find a parti-colored poodle from a great breeder if you have to have that color, however, you'll just have to look. OR, going the rescue-route is always wonderful.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I also tried very hard not to say to you anything, BigDog , but was really concerned as were ,obviously, many others here on the forum. 

You mentioned that you would like to do therapy work with your spoo, and if you are serious about that, than temperament evaluation is crucial IMO. 

Also, it is not that "not all testing was not done" on a Dam and Sire, as far as I could see on their site , ONLY hips were done :noidea:

You also mentioned that pups color will be "non-fading" and it is VERY unusual for browns. I do not know if you got all of the info strait. I might be wrong, of course, but if that is important to you, than ask for the photo of that Stud 2011. 

I personally wold try to steer from buying from a breeder that breads doodles or any kind of mutts : ((. Those are absolutely not good breeding practices.

I would also choose to buy from a breeder that always takes a dog back - no matter what age and for what reason since that indicates that breeder has dog's interest in mind and not a quick $$$.

Breeder should have at least 2 year health warranty with money back OR new puppy back. Just for your info. - some have it "for life".

IMO, good breeder does not have more than one to 2 litters in a year (if 2 than it is from 2 different bitches) since only than puppies can have proper socialization and individual care.

Can well bred dog develop health issues ??? _ YES !!! But chance of that happening should be much lower. 

Do show breeders cover health issues - YES !!!! That is why Dogsinstyle told you that you have to take time and get to know breeders and "hear" about lines. If you want a pati and will choose not to take this puppy than take advantage of this forum and contact people here via PM who are very good with knowledge of parti-lines (Tinlet and Dogsinstyle, for example). 

Wishing you the best luck with it all !!!! : )))

PS: Poodles and health issues - yes, poodles have many health issues since they were over-bred for MANY years. They are one of the breeds with the most health issues at present time. Among top 10 just for eye problems , for example . There are about more than 20 eye problems that poodles can inherit alone O_O So... Are they among sturdiest of breeds - definitely not. Is any dog even close to them with intelligence, intuitiveness, ease of training, no odor, no shedding, no drooling - NO ! All in all, you have to weight what is of the most importance for you. I can not imagine having any other dog so for me the choice is easy.


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## Stargazerpoodles (Dec 27, 2010)

Some health testing on parents will provide you with a puppy that will not have those specific illnesses, but just because the parents have tested clear, does not mean the puppies will be clear. Sometimes the genes just line up wrong, and your dog gets something. I have a severly affected SA dog in my home (neutered), and his sister (finished) is affected also. Both parents were tested normal. We later found out that ours were cases #7 and #8 for this sire, and he has now produced 10 cases. His sperm is still being used, as the breeder feels SA is not genetic, but environmental. You just never know. Our bitch has been bred twice after, and never produced another case of SA. Good ethical breeders look at numbers, not individual cases. If you occasionally produce something, OK, if you consistantly produce something, get rid of the problem. As a layperson looking for a health dog, your best bet is to find a breeder who is honest in what they have in their line, and so you can be prepared for what might crop up. Get a guarentee for genetic problems. Sometimes its better to pay more up front, then get hit in the end because you have become attached to the dog.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

I personally have NO worries about owning an un-health tested poodle. Paris is from decent enough lines, but I have no idea if there's any testing in there. 

I do however feel very strongly that I'd never pay substantial money for one.

Rescuing or adopting is fine, in fact it's a given that there won't be health testing done on a rescue but it doesn't mean they'll have a lesser life. I just would never pay beyond a minimal adoption fee without health testing. JMO


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Excellent point FD :act-up: !!!

BigDog mentioned in another thread that she/he is paying about $2,000 total for the puppy and shipment and that is a complete rip-off IMO . She can buy a puppy of fantastic linage, with fully tested parents and with great warranty for $1,500 :noidea:, sometimes even less ...

I know that I myself sometimes do look into litters that have less than optimal upbringing, but I also do not expect to pay arm and leg for such a puppy :noidea:


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