# Anyone breeding Parti and/or Phantom Poodles?



## Tessa's Dad

Hello: 

I'm wondering if any of the breeders here are breeding Parti-coloured, Tuxedo or Phantom colour Standard Poodles.

And what the opinions of the breeders here are, regarding this. 


I just got a tip off that the CKC is kicking breeders off their "Puppy List" if they discover that the breeder is breeding multi-colour poodles.

We all know that you can't show multi-colours in the show ring (I believe agility and some others are excepted) but this is going beyond that. 

The implication is that if you have a litter of say six dogs and one is parti-coloured, you're not allowed on their Puppy List. Even if you don't advertise that Parti on the list. 

It goes further to say that the CKC doesn't yet have a "ROE" (Rules of eligibility) for Poodles but they are working on it and if the Government approves it, it "Colour may or may not play a role in eligibility for registration". 

Which - the ONLY way I can read this - would mean they could refuse to register anything other than solid colour poodles. 


Opinions and/or feedback would be appreciated. Because this begs the question, _"if they won't register non-solid colour poodles, what is the breeder supposed to do with them??"_


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## Carolinek

I understand that in years past, some breeders would cull poodles born with white on them. 

Is there a rationale for this change? 

It's too bad, I think Parti colors are stunning, and are a natural variant in poodle DNA. Guess they want to be more similar to AKC.


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## JudyD

What is the CKC?


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## Carolinek

CKC: Canadian Kennel Club

Here's a link to an old discussion on this- good information in there.
If true, I think it's a step in the wrong direction. There are some good breeders of partis and I've been hoping the breed standard would change in AKC, as I really want my next dog to be a well- bred parti. 

So now CKC is going to be punitive to parti breeders? Ugh, doesn't do much for genetic diversity either, and drives the breeding of this variation even more into the hands of puppy mills. People won't stop looking for partis, let's legitimize it instead and allow good breeders to flourish and give them the ability to prove their dogs in the ring. 

In Europe they can be shown in conformation, why are we so backwards here?

http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/20783-case-particolor-poodle.html


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## JudyD

Carolinek said:


> CKC: Canadian Kennel Club
> 
> Here's a link to an old discussion on this- good information in there.
> If true, I think it's a step in the wrong direction. There are some good breeders of partis and I've been hoping the breed standard would change in AKC, as I really want my next dog to be a well- bred parti.
> 
> So now CKC is going to be punitive to parti breeders? Ugh, doesn't do much for genetic diversity either, and drives the breeding of this variation even more into the hands of puppy mills. People won't stop looking for partis, let's legitimize it instead and allow good breeders to flourish and give them the ability to prove their dogs in the ring.
> 
> In Europe they can be shown in conformation, why are we so backwards here?
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/20783-case-particolor-poodle.html


That was my guess (the only other possibility was Continental Kennel Club, which, as I understand it, would register just about anything), but it seems so backward, especially in light of the need for genetic diversity, that I thought I must be wrong. Incidentally, one of my dogs is a well-bred, AKC registered parti, from a respected breeder. Partis are purposely bred and available in the US and can be shown in UKC conformation, as well as performance in both clubs.


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## Tessa's Dad

I appreciate the replies. Hopefully more will follow.

This started out as just a decision to kick a breeder off the CKC "Puppy Page" which is where member breeders can advertise. (I don't know if external links are allowed here.) 

The problem is they kicked the breeder off entirely. Not just for the phantom dogs. So they can't even put their solids up on the list. 

Even worse, is what I'm reading as either intimidation or veiled threat that they are developing an "ROE" (Rules of Eligibility) for Poodles and if they can get the government to approve it, it might actually make it so you can't even register a non-solid colour Poodle. 

I won't post the entire letter but here is an excerpt:



> As far as the registration process is concerned, CKC cannot deny registration on the basis of colour alone unless this is set out in Rules of Eligibility (ROE). *As you may be aware, CKC is working closely with breeders and those with knowledge and experience of a breed to establish ROE for the 175 breeds that we currently have authority to represent in Canada. ROE provide the criteria for eligibility for registration and the criteria for certification of dogs as purebred.* The ROE should not to be confused with the much more extensive breed standards which describes a ‘standard of perfection’ for the show ring. For additional information on ROE, please visit our website at:
> 
> https://www.ckc.ca/en/Breeding-Dogs/ROE.


"Criteria for eligibility for registration"... important to note this bit.

Then...


> At this time we do not have ROE for Poodles but we can assure you that all known breeders and those with long-term involvement with the breed will be consulted *before we seek approval from the CKC membership and Agriculture & Agri-Food Canada to adopt ROE for the breed. Colour may or may not play a role in eligibility for registration.*


"Colour may or may not play a role in eligibility for registration".

Meaning if they manage to put get "ROE" approved by the "membership", and get the government to approve it, that contains a restriction to *only *solid colour dogs, they could refuse registrations for any Parti's, Phantoms, Tuxedo's or even mismarks. 

To me it sounds like this could end up with breeders "culling" any non-solid dogs at birth because they wouldn't be able to sell them as registered dogs. In fact, the way Canadian law works, they would not even be allowed to claim the dogs are "Purebred" when selling because using that word, means they *are* registered or can be registered. 



> Animal Pedigree Act
> _(h) offer to sell, contract to sell or sell, as a purebred of a breed, any animal that is not registered or eligible to be registered as a purebred by the association authorized to register animals of that breed or by the Corporation;_


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## Verve

I'll ask a breeder friend what she knows about this. But what I HOPE it's about is that the CKC will refuse to register "merle" poodles. Merle is not a naturally occurring color/pattern in poodles, and yet some "breeders" are advertising merle poodles. 

And honestly I think the talk of culling is a bit extreme. 

What breeder was excluded from advertising on the CKC puppy page? Maybe it was for other reasons?


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## Carolinek

:love2:


JudyD said:


> That was my guess (the only other possibility was Continental Kennel Club, which, as I understand it, would register just about anything), but it seems so backward, especially in light of the need for genetic diversity, that I thought I must be wrong. Incidentally, one of my dogs is a well-bred, AKC registered parti, from a respected breeder. Partis are purposely bred and available in the US and can be shown in UKC conformation, as well as performance in both clubs.


Yes, I've admired your Blue!

There are far more good standard breeders of partis than miniatures. It's very hard to find a reputable mini parti breeder- I've been looking, they are few and far between. That's my goal for the next dog- a mini parti- just love them.

On many parti breeder's websites, they speak of the culling that was done, and the impact on genetic diversity. Here are a couple: 

https://www.spiritpoodles.com/vintage-parti-poodles
About Parti Poodles - Smarts Poodles

If I was in the market for a standard,at first glance, I would consider either one of these breeders. 

While the thought of culling is chilling, it could also mean just removing the pups from breeding stock, and retiring the parents- which impacts diversity. I also think prohibiting them from conformation could affect diversity, as breeders who are involved in conformation only, would not consider partis, and may want to remove them from their lines. 

I hope this is just an effort by CKC to address the Merles, which are not a natural color.


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## Tessa's Dad

Verve said:


> I'll ask a breeder friend what she knows about this. But what I HOPE it's about is that the CKC will refuse to register "merle" poodles. Merle is not a naturally occurring color/pattern in poodles, and yet some "breeders" are advertising merle poodles.
> 
> And honestly I think the talk of culling is a bit extreme.
> 
> What breeder was excluded from advertising on the CKC puppy page? Maybe it was for other reasons?


I don't want to post the entire letter(s) but I can assure you it's entirely because of the fact that the breeder had Phantom poodles on the Puppy List. IE: 



> In accordance with the Code of Practice for CKC Member Breeders, it shall be the aim of every breeder to breed dogs that are true to their heritage and that meet the requirements of the CKC Breed Standards. On the Breeders List from the Poodle Specialty Club website and your CKC Puppy List Advertisement, *we note that you are advertising Phantom coloured Poodles.*


The fact that they went looking for other sources of ads by the breeder containing Phantom poodles, is a bit concerning as well. Suggesting it's not just the puppy list that's an issue, but the fact that the breeder is selling them at all. 

By then their "discipline committee" had met and made a decision on it. The breeder is not being kicked out of the club, fined, or anything like that but at this point, they are banned from having a listing on the Puppy List. 

They included another document that had the bylaws, breed standard and other things in it, with items outlined or underlined. One of them being the Poodle Breed Standard. It's here: http://www.ckc.ca/CanadianKennelClub/media/Breed-Standards/Group 6/Poodle-Miniature-Standard.pdf

The section: "Coat Colour and Skin" was outlined and parts highlighted. "Any solid colour" being one of the highlights.

The letters were signed by _"Kim Fraser | Regulatory Specialist | The Canadian Kennel Club"
_
I didn't mean to come across as extreme but it's a sad historical fact that breeders in the past, culled Parti's, mismarks and others in an effort to weed the "defect" (as they saw it) out of the breed. I've read that it still happens with some breeders, even today. 

The last thing we need is an "excuse" for it if the CKC started refusing to register them. 

From everything I've read, the Parti's are essentially the original colour for them. There are many historical paintings depicting Parti-coloured poodles dating back to the early 1600's. If what I've read is true, famous artists, Royalty and others through history have owned Parti's. Rembrant and the Marchioness of Worcester to name two.









Rembrant - Self portrait in oriental attire with poodle









Sancho. The Property of the Marchioness of Worcester. 1817.


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## Tessa's Dad

Carolinek said:


> On many parti breeder's websites, they speak of the culling that was done, and the impact on genetic diversity. Here are a couple:
> 
> https://www.spiritpoodles.com/vintage-parti-poodles
> About Parti Poodles - Smarts Poodles


Even worse, some breeders didn't register them as Parti's. But they still registered them. Thus hiding the actual pedigree's of many poodles.



> There were two main ways some breeders and show dog people worked to eliminate the parti poodle: 1.) By *killing them* _(also known as culling when it refers to dogs or animals)_ 2.) By purposely* not registering them*. So when a solid poodle would produce/birth parti poodle puppies _(as they often did since they themselves came from a parti)_, *the breeder would only register that poodle as having solid-colored puppies*, this went on for generations and generations. *This unethical practice actually taints the true pedigree of many poodles born between the late 1800s and late 1900s/early 2000s.*


Huxtable The Poodle | Toy Poodle Blog | Parti Poodle: History of Parti Poodle


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## RylieJames

Uhh... this gets me so mad to hear this. Parti and some other multi-colored markings (not merle though) are naturally occurring in the poodle genome, and I still don't understand why they are not included in the breed standard as it seems completely arbitrary. 

As others have said, calling out "breeders" who market merle poodles are one thing because the merle gene is not poodle. But punishing breeders who breed poodles that are 100% purebred and true to their genetic heritage--that is a completely different and, quite frankly, wrong. Here in the US, the AKC has a similar anti-parti approach--although you can still register the parti poodles with AKC but you just can't show them in conformation. However, the UKC will allow you to show parti poodles in conformation. I think the UKC's approach is definitely the step in the right direction and hope that other kennel clubs follow suit . . . one day.


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## Countryboy

Tintlet breeds Partis... in one of the Carolinas I think.


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## Charmed

Kathy Esio of Jacknic would be a good resource as she has partis and is in Michigan. Our brothers, Wilson and Nike are the products of a Canadian sire and an American dam. I'm sure she is up to date on the latest regulations, especially since she is so close to Canada.


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## Tessa's Dad

RylieJames said:


> Uhh... this gets me so mad to hear this. Parti and some other multi-colored markings *(not merle though)* are naturally occurring in the poodle genome, and I still don't understand why they are not included in the breed standard as it seems completely arbitrary.


In some breeds I believe merle is common. Australian Shepherds being one of them.

In most others, it's a problem. A real problem in some. I went through the Wiki article on Merle as a dog coat and the potential health risks/issues that can be associated with it are very scary. Especially if you breed two Merle's together. (Which I'll bet someone intentionally producing them would do.) 



> Double merle dogs may be deaf or blind or both, and can carry ocular defects in blue or colored eyes.





> In one study of 38 dachshunds by a German researcher, partial hearing loss was found in 54.6% of double merles and 36.8% of single merles. 1 out of the 11 (9.1%) double merles was fully deaf while none of the single merles were.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merle_(dog_coat)

When I see this, it puzzles me as to why the CKC has such issues with Parti's and Phantoms, but will register Merle's without question. 

According to the Wiki article the UKC will NOT let you register Merle's.


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## Carolinek

The history of the parti poodle is very interesting isn't it? Sounds like there is something political going on in CKC, have to see how it all evolves, and what the implications are for our beloved partis.


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## lisasgirl

Anyone know of a breeder doing parti toys? I had a silver parti toy foster once that I can't get out of my head (never should have let him go, really, haha), and now that color's creeping its way onto my wishlist.


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## Countryboy

lisasgirl said:


> Anyone know of a breeder doing parti toys? I had a silver parti toy foster once that I can't get out of my head (never should have let him go, really, haha), and now that color's creeping its way onto my wishlist.


Keja breeds Toys. From Alberta to the Southern States, they'll meet you on their tour of dog shows.


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## blueroan

Ugh really?! Honey's mom is a Phantom and she actually throws sable as well. I believe there is a sable mom as well. So the litters are quite interesting. The breeder specializes in red/apricots but often has phantom and sables of varying shades and the occasional black. 

All them are registered. So if the CKC goes through with this then a bunch of would no longer be eligible?! Not cool!


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## BeverlyT

DuBois Standard Poodles in Illinois is breeding parti and tuxedos in black and sable.

She has a couple of beautiful litters right now.


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## Tessa's Dad

This has escalated. 

A lot of breeders I know - some of them in the CKC for 30 years or more - have received letters about breeding Phantoms, Parti's and anything else other than solid colour poodles now. 

The specific one in the OP received a letter that the CKC was going to be having a "meeting" (executives I assume) about this and would "let her know their decision".

Since these "decisions" have sometime come with "fines" that have to be paid if you want to remain a member, she's resigned from the CKC.


FWIW, under the animal pedigree act, NO club or organization is allowed to levy "FINES" of any sort. That right is reserved to the government itself for violations of the act itself. 

I'm trying to find out which elected MP is in charge of the Act. I think it's AAFC (Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada) but I'm still checking.

It might be an idea for breeders to contact this MP if they are affected by this. Especially if you 've been fined in the past. (I know breeders that have been.) 

Parti's are the original colour of Standard Poodles. It's only selective breeding and culling that have reduced the numbers and resulted in the "Solid Colours Only" attitude of the CKC. I believe the APA is supposed to preserve the pedigree of purebred animals. Not change it and make the originals "invalid". 



> *No fine or penalty*
> 
> 
> *19* (1) No by-law of an association may impose any fine or monetary penalty of any kind and no fine or monetary penalty of any kind may be imposed by an association in respect of any non-compliance with its by-laws.




Animal Pedigree Act

Link above is to the Canadian Government, Justice Laws website.


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## Tessa's Dad

The national contact for Animal Pedigree Act is :
David Trus
Animal Registration Officer
Animal Industry Division, MISB
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada
1341 Baseline Road., T5-4-302
Ottawa, ON K1A 0C5
Tel : 613-773-0231
Fax : 613-773-0300
E-mail : [email protected]

Agriculture Canada - Animal Pedigree Act
Animal Pedigree Act - Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada (AAFC)


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## Liz

Wish I was Canadian and could help.


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## specie

*Partis and phantoms*

Arlene Mills, of Crabapple Downs poodles in Colebrook, NH, breeds solids, partis, and phantoms. She is involved with genetic diversity and the poodle health registry. She might have info/opinions, as she is close to Canada.


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## Pudellover

Mona at Mojazz Poodles has health tested and championed parent puppies. She raises her dogs so amazing! Highly recommend her.


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## peppersb

specie said:


> Arlene Mills, of Crabapple Downs poodles in Colebrook, NH, breeds solids, partis, and phantoms. She is involved with genetic diversity and the poodle health registry. She might have info/opinions, as she is close to Canada.


She is a high volume puppy producer who no longer does health testing and does not show her dogs.


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## Jimm Pratt

I still do not understand why any government needs to waste it's time dealing with what colors are acceptable for Poodles. >.<


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## Tessa's Dad

*UPDATE:*



Tessa's Dad said:


> The national contact for Animal Pedigree Act is :
> David Trus
> Animal Registration Officer
> Animal Industry Division, MISB
> Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada
> 1341 Baseline Road., T5-4-302
> Ottawa, ON K1A 0C5
> Tel : 613-773-0231
> Fax : 613-773-0300
> E-mail : [email protected]
> 
> Agriculture Canada - Animal Pedigree Act
> Animal Pedigree Act - Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada (AAFC)



Received a letter from the CKC advising they have completely dropped this "investigation"

There was a "veiled threat" in it that when they do finally develop their "ROE" (Rules of Eligibility) for the Standard Poodle, colour MAY be an issue.

FWIW, Mr. Trus told me that he (Agriculture Canada) has to approve any ROE's the CKC develops, so I have a feeling the CKC will be barking up the wrong tree if they try to sneak a "solid colours" rule past them. 

He didn't tell me any details on what took place between his department and the CKC but did say "conversations took place". 



I'll bet Lance Novak has my picture on a dart board in his office.... :ahhhhh:


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## Johanna

I wonder why it has become such a popular thing to breed poodles who are not a solid color? To the best of my knowledge, with only a very few exceptions, poodle breed standards around the world specify solid colors.

While parti-colors have existed for at least a century or so, phantoms, merles, and sables seem to be a new phenomenon. I wonder if a bit of outcrossing to other breeds introduced those colors. Does anyone know of a phantom or sable that has been DNA tested? Would DNA testing even reveal the presence of another breed?


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## zooeysmom

I read somewhere that merles have different DNA, but not sables and phantoms. Sorry, I don't remember the source of this info.


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## lily cd re

Johanna said:


> I wonder why it has become such a popular thing to breed poodles who are not a solid color? To the best of my knowledge, with only a very few exceptions, poodle breed standards around the world specify solid colors.
> 
> While parti-colors have existed for at least a century or so, phantoms, merles, and sables seem to be a new phenomenon. I wonder if a bit of outcrossing to other breeds introduced those colors. Does anyone know of a phantom or sable that has been DNA tested? Would DNA testing even reveal the presence of another breed?



Certainly if a "merle Poodle" was DNA tested it would show that there was another breed present since the merle gene simply does not exist in poodles. Caveat Emptor to anyone who thinks they have a 100% merle poodle, it just isn't true. I do believe that phantom, partis, abstract and sable all have some history of naturally occurring in poodles


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## Tessa's Dad

Johanna said:


> I wonder why it has become such a popular thing to breed poodles who are not a solid color? To the best of my knowledge, with only a very few exceptions, poodle breed standards around the world specify solid colors.
> 
> *While parti-colors have existed for at least a century or so,* phantoms, merles, and sables seem to be a new phenomenon. I wonder if a bit of outcrossing to other breeds introduced those colors. Does anyone know of a phantom or sable that has been DNA tested? Would DNA testing even reveal the presence of another breed?



Actually, there is photographic and "art" references to parti poodles going back close to 400 years or more.

Parti colours were normal and intentionally bred out by breeders through "culling". 











Rembrandt and his Poodle - dated 1631. 

This is not unique. There are dozens of occurrences of parti-poodles dating back to this era and everything in between. 



The reason I put the effort into this is because if the CKC is successful at putting out an ROE that clearly states only solid colours are acceptable, you won't even be able to register a Parti-Poodle. 

Even though a DNA test would show it to be 100% Poodle. 

It goes well beyond simply limiting the owner as to what specific "shows" or "trials" the dog can be entered in. (I don't care if they won't allow Parti's in the show ring. The CKC is trying to go much farther than that.)


FWIW, the AKC has not done ANYTHING like this at all. All the colours are listed for the codes when registering including parti's, sables, etc. You can't show a parti in the ring but you can show them in agility. I have no problem with that.


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