# Health Testing - circa EUROPE



## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

well most do hips and eyes. Some do SA also.
In Germany they check for Luxating patella and some times vWD

In eastern europe I would say they do very little testing not just for poodle but for most breeds.

I have not seen any thyroid results from a European breeding (maybe I missed it)
Few do NE, but hopefully that is changing.

And the hips are not OFA they are just done through the kennel club they have licensed vets to read the X-rays and they can be done after the dog turns one.

I am only talking about Standards I have no idea about the little guys.

Her in Iceland we have had 7 litters all of them are from parents who are only hip scored and eye tested.

Except for mine who are hips, eyes, NE and Pat.lux. but that is not a lot compared to the good USA breeders.
I plan on doing vWD soon. I cant do the heart check since we don't have any Vets who offer that. 
I am looking into the thyroid test.

SA I will not do until the DNA test comes or the dogs have some kind of problem.

So am I missing something?

Hips 
CERF
Heart
NEwS
vWD
Thyroid
SA


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Winnow said:


> well most do hips and eyes. Some do SA also.
> In Germany they check for Luxating patella and some times vWD
> 
> In eastern europe I would say they do very little testing not just for poodle but for most breeds.
> ...


OMG....I so hope you decide to do vWd....then we won't have to do Quincy...lol!!! I do not know of any other testing that needs to be done on a Standard.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Well, from what I gather, they aren't actually fully untested... It actually pays to contact the breeder to find out facts.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Well, after watching that Crufts show film about how unhealthy the dogs are, I think more testing SHOULD be done.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> Is it common for a breeder to breed unhealth tested dogs in Europe? I was under the impression that a breeder should only ever breed a dog who has been tested for all genetic disorders...can someone a bit more experienced in the dog world elaborate for me?


This has been a sour topic for me for years now, and ever since I leased my male Knight to a German breeder handler to campaign in Europe in 2003, I have followed what breeders in Europe are doing in terms of genetic testing.

I found out many who merely do a hip score and eye check.
Many say that the tests which are available to us in N. America are not available to them in Europe. I beg to differ. OFA is now selling DNA kits for VwD and NEwS which are simple cheek swabs even a child can swab into the dog's mouth between the lower/upper jaw and the inside of the cheek, seal the plastic pouch and fed ex it to OFA for analysis/result. Same can be done with SA. The biopsy itself is simple to do with the help of lidocaine local anaesthetic and an excised piece of skin from two separate sites put in formaline and fed exed over night to a lab in the U.S. who specializes in this type of test. A thyroid test is also not a difficult thing to do.. A vet simply draws blood and checks for T3, T4 and TSH. Heart auscultation should not be too difficult to do as I am sure that there must be at least ONE certified veterinarian Cardiologist in each country in Eruope.. After all European countries are not third world countries and no doubt must have some heart specialists to consult with. Eyes require a specialist and more importantly the equipment that enables one to do a proper eye check similar to our ACVO. Hips can be easily done in Europe, it is not rocket science.. The vet has to anesthesize the dog, make sure that the hips are properly alligned when the dog is lax on the table and take an x-ray. The x-rays if one wishes to certify their dog's hips with OFA can easily be sent by the European vet by fed ex or other safe means of transportation to the OFA for final grading and result.

So, the aforementioned CAN (and should) be done if one is to properly breed for the betterment of the breed. When there is a will there is a way. 


Also, someone mentioned here that they do NOT do SA biopsy (Skin punch Biopsy for Sebaceous Adenitis) because if the dog does not have it, there is no point.
I beg to differ. There are such diagnosis when it comes to SA as
1. SUBCLINICAL
2. EQUIVOCAL.
Assuming a breeder feels that SA is futile and UNimportant to do prior to breeding just because the dogs do NOT show signs of SA.. then what about the dog being SUBCLINICAL (has SA but does not show it ) What then???
If a breeder does not do an SA test prior to breeding their dogs and UNKNOWN to them they do have a stud or brood bitch who is SA SUBCLINICAL and they breed her to an SA UNtested dog who MAY also be subclinical.. they will then be creating a genetic time bomb which will errup to bite them in the fanny.
Most SA subclinical dogs do end up being diagnosed with SA Affected later on as such if a breeder claims that SA testing is not necessary just because the dog does not show any signs of SA is misleading themselves and taking a HUGE genetic risk.. Both dogs can be SUBCLINICAL without the breeder knowing it, and when breeding two SA subclinical one will have several SA affected pups in the litter. Why then take this chance when SA testing is so easily done and available to be diagnosed. A european breeder merely has to have the two skin sections put in formaline and shipped overnight via Fed Ex to a lab in the U.S. which will provide a diagnosis within days. 
I know that these tests are very expensive but so is the sad tale of loss we may give to our clients if we rule out doing all testing available to us, regardless of georgraphic location. 
Just MHO...


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

SA I will not do until the DNA test comes or the dogs have some kind of problem.


Winnow if you read my latest post here , it will explain to you why you MUST do the SA skin punch biopsy and not rule this test out prior to your breedings.
I hope you do not take offence but I feel very strongly about testing and making sure that all genetic testing available to us stand. poodle breeders are done in order to rule out any and all visible and non visible genetic conditions. It is just a very necessary precaution we have to take for the breed, for ourselves, for our clients and most importantly the dogs we keep and sell.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Well, after watching that Crufts show film about how unhealthy the dogs are, I think more testing SHOULD be done.


I think that came down to simply not caring, rather than not testing..


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

jak said:


> I think that came down to simply not caring, rather than not testing..


How can you say that?...have you spoken to Disa about her health testing and her opinions on health testing I think its pretty foolish to say that she doesn't care about her dogs and I think its even MORE foolish to say she doesn't care to health test her dogs...when shes gone FAR and beyond what is expected of her as a European breeder


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

jak said:


> I think that came down to simply not caring, rather than not testing..


No...it likely has to do with what is common in the country of origin and what is readily available. She has gone above and beyond what nearly any other breeder in Europe does, proving it CAN be done if one CARES to do it, by doing NE and Luxating patellas. That is quite a rude assumption!


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> How can you say that?...have you spoken to Disa about her health testing and her opinions on health testing I think its pretty foolish to say that she doesn't care about her dogs and I think its even MORE foolish to say she doesn't care to health test her dogs...when shes gone FAR and beyond what is expected of her as a European breeder


lol.. I meant to quote Fluffyspoos... sorry.. RE: pedigree dogs exposed


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> No...it likely has to do with what is common in the country of origin and what is readily available. She has gone above and beyond what nearly any other breeder in Europe does, proving it CAN be done if one CARES to do it, by doing NE and Luxating patellas. That is quite a rude assumption! I guess now we are going to play a little game where it is a certain group pitted against another group. LOL! I think the rest of the members will find this rather old and tiresome. But, whatever rocks your world.


I made a mistake! In the quick reply box, I didn't click "quote message in reply"

I have respect for Disa, she takes good care of her dogs, and tests them appropriately! She is a lovely person, and I enjoy talking with her.. I made a mistake!!!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

jak said:


> I made a mistake! In the quick reply box, I didn't click "quote message in reply"
> 
> I have respect for Disa, she takes good care of her dogs, and tests them appropriately! She is a lovely person, and I enjoy talking with her.. I made a mistake!!!


I apologize Jak for jumping on that like a lion on a gazelle v.v;

I've been trying to scour that documentary out on the internet but I haven't been able to find it anywhere >.<


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you for clarifying Jak.

Keith, I wonder if it might be available through the BBC on the internet. It is despicable and VERY troubling! I have watched it twice now, and it boggles the mind what humans have done to this species. German Shephards, Bulldogs and Cavaliers are the biggest focus, and the Cavalier story is just heart breaking. IMO there should have been some arrests with regard to what happened with them. DISGUSTING!


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

It really was my fault... I made the mistake.. thanks


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Thank you for clarifying Jak.
> 
> Keith, I wonder if it might be available through the BBC on the internet. It is despicable and VERY troubling! I have watched it twice now, and it boggles the mind what humans have done to this species. German Shephards, Bulldogs and Cavaliers are the biggest focus, and the Cavalier story is just heart breaking. IMO there should have been some arrests with regard to what happened with them. DISGUSTING!


I had a link to it on my laptop... but the cord is broken so I have no power.. if you don't find it by then, I will post it..


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

whitepoodles said:


> I know that these tests are very expensive but so is the sad tale of loss we may give to our clients if we rule out doing all testing available to us, regardless of georgraphic location.
> Just MHO...


:nod: Agree - This is the point. I don't see how anyone can say any breeder should be exempt. I wish everyone thought this way. Its true there are no guarantees, but they can be limited. Not sure whats to debate about thathwell:


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## Oodlejpoodle's mom (Sep 11, 2009)

What is disgusting is you people acting like three year olds…….yes, this is getting old and ridiculous. Poodle forum used to be a fun place to learn, debate and meet new people. Now it is group A against group B…………..Barb, do something….. Close this post and PLEASE if these adults cannot act like adults ban them from the forum. I’m sorry but this has got to stop!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

well in all fairness this one wasn't a us v. them kinda thing it was just a misunderstanding that Cherie and I both apologized for and Jak said he was sorry for the misunderstanding as well 

((IMO thats a s*it ton of maturity coming from all parties ))

other than that lil bump in the road the thread was rolling on awesome :]]

Oh and I agree Olie...I don't think it should even be a debate ((but theres alot of things that I don't think should be debatable XDD))


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Oodlejpoodle's mom said:


> What is disgusting is you people acting like three year olds…….yes, this is getting old and ridiculous. Poodle forum used to be a fun place to learn, debate and meet new people. Now it is group A against group B…………..Barb, do something….. Close this post and PLEASE if these adults cannot act like adults ban them from the forum. I’m sorry but this has got to stop!


Yes, it is getting very ridiculous! I agree. But this WAS an honest mistake...


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Oodlejpoodle's mom said:


> What is disgusting is you people acting like three year olds…….yes, this is getting old and ridiculous. Poodle forum used to be a fun place to learn, debate and meet new people. Now it is group A against group B…………..Barb, do something….. Close this post and PLEASE if these adults cannot act like adults ban them from the forum. I’m sorry but this has got to stop!


I kind of have to agree... hmm, but I will say no more. Nothing will be done.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Kathy, Yung and I are communicating about the situation. This is a public forum, there is really no way to make everyone happy because everyone doesn't want the same thing. Very different personalities and viewpoints are coming together here and don't always meld well. Please stick with us if you can! The forum is still a fun place to learn, debate and meet new people - for every thread that turns bad, there are many, many that are interesting, fun and informative!!

Jak, it's true that maybe nothing will be done, or maybe something will be done, but until the administrator and I are able to talk more about the situation here, there will be no major decisions made. IMO there is nothing that needs to be done at this time, but Yung and I will visit about the individuals who are most disruptive...

Yung has a life and isn't as available on the weekends as he is during the week. We've emailed each other and agreed to talk more next week about any changes to be made. 

It's almost 2 AM my time and I don't know what the heck I'm still doing on the computer! I'm going to bed!

Barb


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Barb:

I sincerely hope you do not feel that my lengthy post was disruptive in any way. I believe it was informative, and did not point any fingers at anyone, but merely gave one breeder's opinion on the subject of fully genetically testing dogs prior to breeding. Just because I or many like me choose to perform all genetic testing available on their breeding stock does not mean that another breeder has to adhere to the same modus operandi.. As such I honestly believe that my post was not only informative but also necessary in this respect. I do not believe I was disruptive in ANY way shape or form. A question was asked or debated and I POLITELY gave my opinion without any finger pointing. If you are to include me in the "disgusting crowd" then honestly I really dont know what this forum is all about.. You have mentioned it is about learning and exchanging of opinions and this is exactely what whitepoodles (ora) did.
I am sorry you do not see my post as constructive but rather as disruptive. If I misunderstood your point, then please let me know.
I agree that there was a back to highschool exchange here and there and other posts on the PF and I do agree IT MUST STOP, but alas when one asks a questions then they better be prepared to get the right answer BUT I AGREE WITHOUT VENOM AND BACK TO HIGH SCHOOL UNNECESSARY REMARKS.. You have my vote on that for sure. So if you wish you can delete the back and forth unnecessary posts on this threat but dont delete information which is vital to people on this forum and the reason for which they have joined to learnt and prevent making mistakes.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> SA I will not do until the DNA test comes or the dogs have some kind of problem.
> 
> 
> Winnow if you read my latest post here , it will explain to you why you MUST do the SA skin punch biopsy and not rule this test out prior to your breedings.
> I hope you do not take offence but I feel very strongly about testing and making sure that all genetic testing available to us stand. poodle breeders are done in order to rule out any and all visible and non visible genetic conditions. It is just a very necessary precaution we have to take for the breed, for ourselves, for our clients and most importantly the dogs we keep and sell.


No offense.

I am new to this breed(3 years) and honestly I am bit confused.
I talk to some breeders who say that the SA test is just waist of money and some feel the different way.

How often do you test your dogs for SA?

In my mind I want to do all I can, and I am starting to do more then I need. 
It wasn't until I joined this forum and started to look at what breeders in USA and Canada where doing that I stated looking up tests from vetgen and OFA

The heart test is not an option fore me here in Iceland, we don't have any heart specialists.
But the rest I can do. 
And am interested in doing.

I looked into the SA test two years ago and I was getting some very mixed messages both from breeders and the vet's so I decided to skip it.
Since it was very expensive and I could not get any straight answers. 

I emailed my Vet about 2 months ago about thyroid testing and have called to ask about them replying me but no response yet :S


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

jak said:


> I made a mistake! In the quick reply box, I didn't click "quote message in reply"
> 
> I have respect for Disa, she takes good care of her dogs, and tests them appropriately! She is a lovely person, and I enjoy talking with her.. I made a mistake!!!


No worries JAK 
I know what I am doing is not nearly as good as the good American breeders 
But I am working on it..


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

plumcrazy said:


> Kathy, Yung and I are communicating about the situation. This is a public forum, there is really no way to make everyone happy because everyone doesn't want the same thing. Very different personalities and viewpoints are coming together here and don't always meld well. Please stick with us if you can! The forum is still a fun place to learn, debate and meet new people - for every thread that turns bad, there are many, many that are interesting, fun and informative!!
> 
> Jak, it's true that maybe nothing will be done, or maybe something will be done, but until the administrator and I are able to talk more about the situation here, there will be no major decisions made. IMO there is nothing that needs to be done at this time, but Yung and I will visit about the individuals who are most disruptive...
> 
> ...


I see no need to close this thread.
Did not notice anything wrong with it  

Its a fun and educating topic.. 
So please don't close it.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Winnow said:


> I see no need to close this thread.
> Did not notice anything wrong with it
> 
> Its a fun and educating topic..
> So please don't close it.


I completely agree!! it was just a misunderstanding as I said before

but I'd be happy to apologize again, I'm sorry Jak for being to quick to judge v.v;


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Winnow said:


> No offense.
> 
> I am new to this breed(3 years) and honestly I am bit confused.
> I talk to some breeders who say that the SA test is just waist of money and some feel the different way.
> ...


Winnow 

I am very relieved you did not take offence to my post and trust me it was NOT at all directed at you. I saw how diligent you are and how carefully you breed your dogs and your concerns with health issues so I premirtted myself to give you some pointers from a breeder's point of view about how genetic testing are done and to say that they can be done if you insist on having them.. that is all I meant by my post but certainly have not pointed any fingers at you or anyone else. I admire the fact you want to learn given you are in this breed only 3 years and you are committed to breed correctly and with much aforethought.
If your vet feels that SA is not necessary tell him you are the client and that you INSIST he do the skin punch biopsy whether he believes in it or not.
You are the paying client and you make sure to tell him that IT IS NECESSARY regardless of how he feels about it.. It will not be his litter it will be yours as such you are the one responsible for the resulting pups not your vet. If you wish I can have my vet e-mail me the procedure of how to do a skin punch biopsy , how to put the 2 skin sections in formaline and ship it to a lab and I will be more than happy to give you an address in Cda. where your vet can ship the specimen to be analyzed. It is NOT expensive.. It only needs to be done by a vet who follows skin punch bx. procedure administer the lidocaine local anaesthetic and pull out two skin tags from the withers area and a bit lower down the back.. As for NEwS and VwD any child (much less a vet) can do a cheek swab and if you wish I will be again more than prepared to forward to you all the necessary documentation on how to order the kits from whom as well as how to do the swabbing and send it to the U.S. for analysis. The VwD kits you can get for a mere U.S. $90.00-U.S.$100.00 and the NEwS will only cost you I believe $85.00, you can swab at home and send it yourself by fed ex to the states to be analyzed. The only test you will have to do which you say your vet told you is very expensive is the SA it is a very easy procedure which your vet will be able to know that isif he will be willing to read instructions on how to perform this procedure. s procedure does not require a genious. Pls. do not take the easy route to believe that SA testing is not necessary just because the dog does not exhibit any SA symptoms. Dogs can be subclinical (having the disease but not showing it outwardly) and if you breed such a dog you are causing harm to the breed. This was what I meant by one must do the SA skin punch because of the subclinical issues. A breeder in the U.S. I know bred a bitch and SA skin punched her when she was 2 years old.. She was subclinical.. Two years later she was re-punched and was diagnosed as Affected.. so you see the test IS valuable regardless of the opinion of others. As long as we have this test it should be performed on all our breeding stock regardless of what some say about its validity, etc...
If you wish you can e-mail me at my e-mail addy [email protected] and I will help you get all the information to your vet and also instructions for each test. I can only respect a breeder who adheres to ALL genetic testing and inspite of all of us knowing that there is no guarantee of how genes will allign in a breeding we have the tools with which to do these testing so why not use them, expensive or not... 
As I said I am more than willing to help you if you wish to do all testing available and forward you all info if you wish.

to answer your question:
SA should be done every 2 years. If you know there are SA issues in a line then I would suggest doing it every year.. but every 2 years for me is sufficient.
Eye exam should be done on a yearly basis
NEwS is DNA so should only be done once.
VwD is DNA so again should only be done once.
Hips: should be done at 2 -2.5 years latest and sent to OFA for grading
Thyroid: should be done yearly, whether the dog has or does not have symptoms.
Heart : if your vets are not equipped with in depth heart check than at least make sure that the dog does not have a heartmurmur. There are several heartmurmur grades.. so make sure what grade it is if the dog is found to have a heartmurmur. I would never breed from a dog with a heart murmur whether one feels it is congential in nature or only slight or grade 1, still this type of dog for me is non breedable and should be neutered/spayed and sold as a pet. 
Usually you can detect heartmurmors in a puppy as young as 8-9 weeks old and your vet must check for this before your pups are sold and also the one you keep for yourself.

Re: NEwS.. I just recently shipped Cole's sperm to Europe and the breeder there did most of the testing to include the NEwS. She said there was no problem doing them.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks Ora 

the tests I have done now are Hips, eyes, pat.lux and NE
they are all tested for NE and clear. Vaka is only 1 so she has no tests done yet except for the NE.

I am going to order the vWD test hopefully before Christmas.
I am working on the Thyroid test and I will look into the SA test again 

The vet knew how to do the SA skin punch that was not the issue. And they are fully equipped to send it and so on. 

There heart is checked once a year for heart murmur.

Hips I have had done before 2 on Charly and Dima that is allowed in Scandinavia at least, but I will wait for Vaka to be two and do OFA on her.

The vWd test is available on vetgen for 119 USD for dog is there any where else I can get the DNA kit ?

I will look into this when I come home from Finland with my new baby


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Winnow said:


> Thanks Ora
> 
> the tests I have done now are Hips, eyes, pat.lux and NE
> they are all tested for NE and clear. Vaka is only 1 so she has no tests done yet except for the NE.
> ...


Hi Winnow:
You are doing everything by the book.. This is wonderful and I have respect for you for trying to do your best given the limitation of testing in your country.
Yes pls. insist your vet do the SA skin punch and also the thyroid blood test (T3 and T4 )
As for the Vet Gen VwD kit it can be ordered from them. Give them your address and credit card number and tell them to send it to you.
There are some clubs who hold health clinics in certain areas and you can get the VwD kit cheaper by $10.00 from them as opposed to from Vet Gen but it is not worth the trouble. I will get the kit form Vet Gen directly and go from there.
Let me know if you have any problem in doing the above and you can also e-mail me at my e-mail addy if you wish.. I am sure that Arreau also can help you as she is very familiar with the same testings and does them on her breeding stock as well.
Good luck and keep us posted. You are doing great !!


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## Teffy (Jul 4, 2010)

Just to weigh in on whether or not to delete this thread...

I joined this forum to learn more. Yes, I could call up my girl's breeder and ask my questions...but her answers would be just her opinion or her interpretation of facts. I enjoy reading this so-called 'banter' because I'm learning both sides, all sides. As far as I am aware, this thread has been quite civil, if you all reread this thread you'll see that the people involved in the misunderstanding remedied the situation quite quickly and bravely apologized _publicly_ to each other, you'll also see two breeders discussing health tests, learning from each other without animosity. I don't see immaturity here, I see people who care about the breed passionately, I recognize all these name...they contribute to the forum all the time, it would be a shame to delete this and other threads similar to this. People _will_ argue from time to time, as we all do in person, probably argue more online because we lose the human factor when we type, it's so easy to misunderstand one another here and don't forget, people here are not necessarily from your neck of the woods, different cultures...lost in translation.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Teffy said:


> Just to weigh in on whether or not to delete this thread...
> 
> I joined this forum to learn more. Yes, I could call up my girl's breeder and ask my questions...but her answers would be just her opinion or her interpretation of facts. I enjoy reading this so-called 'banter' because I'm learning both sides, all sides. As far as I am aware, this thread has been quite civil, if you all reread this thread you'll see that the people involved in the misunderstanding remedied the situation quite quickly and bravely apologized _publicly_ to each other, you'll also see two breeders discussing health tests, learning from each other without animosity. I don't see immaturity here, I see people who care about the breed passionately, I recognize all these name...they contribute to the forum all the time, it would be a shame to delete this and other threads similar to this. People _will_ argue from time to time, as we all do in person, probably argue more online because we lose the human factor when we type, it's so easy to misunderstand one another here and don't forget, people here are not necessarily from your neck of the woods, different cultures...lost in translation.


Totally agree with you..

I think this is an important topic to discuss.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Ora, I sent you a private message...

There will be no decisions made on this thread to my knowledge - so far everyone has been as civil as they can be - when a misunderstanding was discovered, it was publically remedied... Yung and I will be discussing other threads and his direction on future conflicts.

If anyone has anything they'd like me to know so I can share fully with Yung next week, please let me know by private message. Thanks...

Carry on...

Barb


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

plumcrazy said:


> Ora, I sent you a private message...
> 
> There will be no decisions made on this thread to my knowledge - so far everyone has been as civil as they can be - when a misunderstanding was discovered, it was publically remedied... Yung and I will be discussing other threads and his direction on future conflicts.
> 
> ...




I am in total agreement with Barb and Teffy and I must say that I do have alot of respect for Winnow for never responding to some of the posts which were not meant in a mean way, but rather were kinda sorry folks immature but which resolved and as Barb said the people swiftly and publicly apologised so that is great.. Shows character.
Winnow as I said before I have alot of respect for you for wishing to do things the right way, for not reacting to some of the post in a negative way and for choosing to weed out the good posts from the oh well a bit of immature ones (sorry again LOLOL). We do have some very young members here and due to their age at times their youth goes hand in hand with being a tad hot headed and LOL quick to respond. Winnow took it all in good spirits.. way to go Winnow !


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> I am in total agreement with Barb and Teffy and I must say that I do have alot of respect for Winnow for never responding to some of the posts which were not meant in a mean way, but rather were kinda sorry folks immature but which resolved and as Barb said the people swiftly and publicly apologised so that is great.. Shows character.
> Winnow as I said before I have alot of respect for you for wishing to do things the right way, for not reacting to some of the post in a negative way and for choosing to weed out the good posts from the oh well a bit of immature ones (sorry again LOLOL). We do have some very young members here and due to their age at times their youth goes hand in hand with being a tad hot headed and LOL quick to respond. Winnow took it all in good spirits.. way to go Winnow !


Thanks Ora for the kind words.

Before I decided to breed spoos I read an article in the local kennel club news letter about kennel blindness. That was something I was going to try to avoid at all cost.
So when talking about my dogs I understand people have comments and that is good, we don't all agree on certain things.
Its hard but I try my best to be open minded and see all sides of the matter :juggle:


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Before I decided to breed spoos I read an article in the local kennel club news letter about kennel blindness. That was something I was going to try to avoid at all cost.

There are some breeders who fall into the kennel blindness syndrome. They feel every puppy they produce should finish their conformation title, regardless if they are or not a good representative of the breed. I agree that there is no canine perfection but when a breeder is experienced and has knowledge of the standard and still choose to champion mediocre quality dogs than I feel that they merely do so to gain an additional Ch. title to their kennel prefix and are more concerned with Ch. quantity vis -a-vis Ch. quality.
I am very harsh when grading my puppies and I do not forgive too many faults and it did happen to me several times that I opted not to keep a puppy out of a litter inspite of being told that it is "finishable" , and my reply was so what.. a cheap champion, no thanks ....I would rather sell what are labelled "finishable" puppies to pet homes under spay/neuter contracts than keep them to show and finish. We all differ in our goals and how we think about breeding and showing..but kennel blindness is a syndrom that will always be here to stay and some will always have it no matter how many people will try to convince them otherwise they will still maintain their point of view


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## bpk082 (Feb 3, 2009)

I agree with that completely. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so the beholder will in someways always be blind. But sadly it should not be at the dog's cost or the breed as a whole (champion mediocre quality dogs). 

Just a thought .... it would be wonderful since we have the technology, it would be manditory for titled dogs to have pictures (so one would know if the title was b.s lol). And tests are cleared before any title can be given to any dog. Oh wait hahaha the dog also has to also show the skills it was bred to to in a good to excellent presentation. Wow that would be the day, a true champion!!!


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