# Please help, Finn is growling and bit my daughter



## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

Finn is 4.5 months old, very well loved, I am home all the time, and has a clean bill of health from the vet.

Last week when I as brushing Finn afte a bath, he lunged at me, but I was able to avoid his bite. 

My husband was playing with my daughter loudly, and he growled at him (and showed his teeth.)

Now today, he let out a VERY nasty growl at my 3 year old (she isn't a bad child, she is 3, but she is pretty gentle, she was just in his space) and he bit her, didn't break the skin, but he left bite marks on her.

My only beef with him is he is a nervous or "shy" dog, he was when we got him. He's starting to show leg humping, and the vet swears it's nothing because he's not even 5 months old yet.

My husband says he needs obedience training, but my gut instinct... oh boy. This worries me a great deal. All his negative behavior is being corrected, and he is not pampered, he is treated like a dog and us the alpha. I need serious serious advice please.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Hi, I found this link that may help on dog aggression from 
dog obedience advice.

http://dogobedienceadvice.com/dog-aggression.php

Read through it, I hope it helps some.


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

Rather than aggressive biting, I feel that he is fear biting. Thanks for he link, I did read it over, but much of the advice is for alpha dogs. He doesn't play tug of war, he stops doing anything on command, sits on command, he does not need a leash and will go outside and stay by me, and he never walks ahead of us he always behind us. He has even peed on my husband out of fear. Even when going somewhere in the house, he stays behind us. He follows me everywhere. He is not an alpha dog, he is a scared dog. Very shy. This growling, lunging and biting is done out of fear.


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## Blue Fox (Oct 22, 2008)

Without knowing the cir***stances of his growling eg. not having been there, I think you need to work out what he is fearful of and then if possible try and do some association training eg. if it's sudden movements then tone it down a bit and reward if he doesn't growl that type of thing. It is always difficult over the internet and perhaps you might consider getting a behaviourist in to watch him and help. I have never used one but I have read on a lot of forums that people have had great success with them.


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

We were going to wait until after Christmas... we just finished his last round of shots and the next course is Jan 5th... From what I hear, she is a wonderful woman, she REALLY knows her stuff: http://www.jbdogschool.com/

Meanwhile, I want to call around, see if there is a vet that will fix him, our current vet REFUSES to fix him until he is 6 months, and we notice that much of this growling nonsense started with his ***ual behaviors. After lots of reading, even in fear aggressive dogs, fixing can help a great deal.

Just hoping to get some good advice from you guys that have been through this before.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

First, obedience training ASAP, and be careful about that alpha dog stuff. A lot I see that making a problem worse. Thats usualy when I get hold of the dog for training, after they have seen a problem, read a couple of books, and tried out the dog whisper crap on their dog. Then they call me up... why did my dog bite me..... Uhhhhh because you're an idiot. Not to say that I think that of YOU but it's how I feel about a lot of the goober people I get for training classes. I wonder what goes on in their head - we had one person who was pee'ing in the backyard to show her dog who is boss... ???? Weirdo LoL.
(FYI - I don't have an opinion on Mr. Ceasar, thats just the first thing that jumped to mind up there. So don't anyone get all dog whisperer defensive K )

Second, I know it sounds counter productive but don't seriously correct a behavior like that, If for instance I am afraid of you and I growl at you to go away and you don't and I resort to biting you and you freak and yell or grab me by the scruff or roll me over or hit me or do any kind of negative punishment - what did I learn? In the human mind, you think the dog learned not to do that again, and that behavior would not be allowed because that is what YOU would have learned as a person. Thats not how a dog thinks. In dog lang Finn just learned that he was afraid of you, or in this case your child, he tried to make her go away with a growl, she didn't, he resorting to trying to bite, and then he got corrected. Now he knows your daughter to be dangerous because bad things happened when he was near her. First he was stressed and expereinced fear, (assuming it is fear biting like you've stated), and then the correction. Another way to explain this concept is with potty training. If you catch your dog peeing on the rug what are you supposed to do? Try and stop them, obviously, and take them to where they are supposed to go potty. If you yell and jump around and make a big huge stink out of catching them in a mistake all the dog really learns is that it is "dangerous" or unpleasant to potty when you are watching. Thus you get a dog who won't go potty when mom or dad takes them out on a leash, and who runs and hids in another room or under the bed to potty. Make sense? It's hard for me to explain this stuff in writing, I'm a much better instructor in person... sorry. 
Third - Neuter! Your dog is at the age where he is entering his "teenage" phase. What do teenagers do??? They test the boundries and push the limits right? Dogs aren't really much different. In fact you can work with a dog when it is very young and when they get to "that" age they will still push. Neutering will help, but not totaly fix the problem. Every vet is different, and your may have his/her reasons for not wanting to alter Finn before he is 6 months but if it were me, I would seek a second opinion if I could. Shelters alter pets at super young ages with no problems so I don't see why you should have to wait either. Some vet though have weight limits in the case of smaller dogs. They want them to achieve a certain weight or be a little older in theory so they can tolderate the proceedure better. 
Do keep in mind that most behaviors do unfortunately become habits so sometime there is no quick fix. Not that it cannot be fixed, but it may take a little longer than a few weeks to really break the habit in the dog's mind. It only takes one success with a behavior to make it a habit and then the habit becomes stronger with every time it is repeated. 
(Sorry for writing a book.... I don't know how to do short and sweet lol)


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

Thank you for the post. Yes, alpha training isn't what he needs, he isn't an alpha, he is afraid. Anti-alpha behavior modification is the opposite of what a fearful dog needs (at least, that seems logical to me.)

The training classes do not start until Jan 5th, which is a ways away. The growling is really getting bad.

In terms of fixing, the vet refuses and I mean refuses to fix regardless of why because they state that it ruins bone growth, but he was fine (shy, but not aggressively shy) until he hit puberty.

Any solid pointers in terms of training we can do before he can attend classes?


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Why not start clicker training now? You don't need to have a clicker to do it. .....
Know what if you're interested why dont you just PM me and we can set up a time to just talk, it's much easier to explain things that way and I dont mind helping. I didn't go through all that certification stuff to just sit back and let little puppies get themselves into trouble with 3 year olds.

I can also send you some of my lesson plans for my basic class. It explains a lot. What we have here is a communication malfunction with little Finn. In my classes the whole base for the class is positive communication between dog and handler.


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

Gigit said:


> Finn is 4.5 months old, very well loved, I am home all the time, and has a clean bill of health from the vet.
> 
> Last week when I as brushing Finn afte a bath, he lunged at me, but I was able to avoid his bite.
> 
> ...


I can relate totally to what you are going through. From the time we brougt Ginger home at six weeks she was like this. Very fearful - growl - snap etc. at about 5 months my vet said that I needed to get a personal trainer to come to the home. It cost me $500 but boy it sure helped.
The first visit Ginger behaved so well - she did everything he told her to do etc. but she didn't display the behavior I was afraid of. So I asked him what do I do when I am grooming her and she growls at me. He said do this and he put his closed hand on her muzzle and said "Out" WEll, she went after him and he said ok now I see and he went to the car and got his "sleeve" and gloves and came back and did it again and again and she bit and cried = it was awful but she finally gave in that he wasn't afraid of her bite and he was boss. After that we laughed and talked and when he was leaving he said goodbye to her and she did a low growl - lol - he immediately placed his hand at her muzzle - fist closed - and said "out" and she stopped. After that she had five more training sessions with him and turned out to be a great dog. 
She still has the fear but you can't play into it - you can't say "its ok" etc because she will think you are weak and cannot protect her. If we don't take position as pack leader the dog will. So if Ginger growls at me now I do what Tony did - calm assertive - and sometimes I say "are you growling at me?" and she just looks at me with the fish eyes - I am not afraid and she knows it. 

I wish you luck with your dog but I think he will be ok if proper training is appled. And I think he needs more than classes just like Ginger did.


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

Pamela said:


> I can relate totally to what you are going through. From the time we brougt Ginger home at six weeks she was like this. Very fearful - growl - snap etc. at about 5 months my vet said that I needed to get a personal trainer to come to the home. It cost me $500 but boy it sure helped.
> The first visit Ginger behaved so well - she did everything he told her to do etc. but she didn't display the behavior I was afraid of. So I asked him what do I do when I am grooming her and she growls at me. He said do this and he put his closed hand on her muzzle and said "Out" WEll, she went after him and he said ok now I see and he went to the car and got his "sleeve" and gloves and came back and did it again and again and she bit and cried = it was awful but she finally gave in that he wasn't afraid of her bite and he was boss. After that we laughed and talked and when he was leaving he said goodbye to her and she did a low growl - lol - he immediately placed his hand at her muzzle - fist closed - and said "out" and she stopped. After that she had five more training sessions with him and turned out to be a great dog.
> She still has the fear but you can't play into it - you can't say "its ok" etc because she will think you are weak and cannot protect her. If we don't take position as pack leader the dog will. So if Ginger growls at me now I do what Tony did - calm assertive - and sometimes I say "are you growling at me?" and she just looks at me with the fish eyes - I am not afraid and she knows it.
> 
> I wish you luck with your dog but I think he will be ok if proper training is appled. And I think he needs more than classes just like Ginger did.


I have a PS - I do not trust Ginger around my daughters grandbaby - she is afraid of the baby even though she loves her and I don't think you can trust Finn near your daughter until she is older. Ginger is fine with the older kids. Its just that Kayla is 2 and she pulls the dogs hair so they are afraid of her.


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

Wonder Pup - Oh man thanks SO much, pm incoming 

Pamela - Makes a lot of sense (calm assertion.) I don't want to be too hard on him and freak him out, but we definitely do not want to allow this behavior or let him think we are weak. In terms of Hannah, no, he will no longer be allowed to be alone with her until she is older. Makes me sad.


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## tannerokeefe (Dec 14, 2008)

what size is Finn?


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

Gigit said:


> Wonder Pup - Oh man thanks SO much, pm incoming
> 
> Pamela - Makes a lot of sense (calm assertion.) I don't want to be too hard on him and freak him out, but we definitely do not want to allow this behavior or let him think we are weak. In terms of Hannah, no, he will no longer be allowed to be alone with her until she is older. Makes me sad.


Yes it is sad. Kayla loves the dogs but sometimes she pulls their hair. I can't trust any of them except Teddy - you could do anything to that dog and he just would look at you. He loves to chase her and she loves it. I see Ginger watching and wanting to play but she is afraid. boo hoo


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

tannerokeefe said:


> what size is Finn?


He's a miniature, 4.5 months old. The top of his head doesn't quite reach my knee (and I'm very short.)


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## poodleit (Dec 10, 2008)

great thread.

Fixing early will interfere with proper growth of a dog. They NEED those hormones for balanced development!

Gidit, you have a good Vet. Congratulations.

My male is 2.5 years old. Kids can take a BONE out of his mouth without any complications


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## CurlyDog (Aug 20, 2008)

I definitely believe that fear biting is the worst kind. I have a scar on my face from a toy poodle bite. I had warmed up to him and thought he was ok with me but got a little too close. 18 stitches! I convinced my in-laws to train him instead of putting him down. He never got any training and wound up biting one of the grandchildren. After that they had him euthanized. Probably could have been prevented. 

I think a good trainer can do a lot of good.


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

Growth of my dog is fine and I agree health is very important, but this is serious, more serious than him getting larger, SPCA animals are fixed all the time, as early as 12 weeks. If it doesn't work out here because of biting, putting him into another home could be worse, in fact, he could end up being put to sleep. I love my dog and will take any measure necessary to make all of this stuff work out.

With that said, all the good trainers are booked up 1-2 months, the only thing available for NOW is PetSmart *sigh* so for now it's PetSmart until we can get him in to the other classes. Meanwhile, I found a vet willing to fix him on his 5 month birthday. 

And yes, fear biting is the worst kind. I had several heart to hearts with a few vet offices and a trainer. Their outlook really had me even more upset, but his vet said not to fret, that it's not too late, he just needs to be given more confidence and less needy for me. 

Wish us luck guys, and thanks for all the help and advice, I'd welcome anything that might help us work through this.


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## tannerokeefe (Dec 14, 2008)

out of curiousity(I have no advice) has he always seemed fearful or skiddish? Or is this something totally new and out of the blue? has something traumatic happened to him that you may have over looked? this has to be so hard on you!!


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

He was always fearful and shy, however it's getting worse as he gets older. We are a laid back family, the kids are pretty quiet, I don't dig a lot of noise. Husband and I don't fight, things around our house hold are very low key.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

I hope this is not the case for you but some dogs just won't tolerate children. Even the best of them. It does sound like he is fearful either way but just something to consider later on. 

I do think if you have a family and wanted a family dog, what is the point of having a dog that cannot be trusted arounds kids. I really think you should consider looking to re-home him with a adult (no children) after you feel he is stable enough to be placed. Thats a hard decision to make but it takes away from the children having that great family dog experience too.

Either way, its sad and not something anyone imagines happening after getting a sweet little puppy. Please don't take any offence to my opinion. I have kids too and couldn't imagine having to go through this.


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## CurlyDog (Aug 20, 2008)

Just curious- Please don't take this the wrong way as the question is purely for learning purposes. I forget where you got him. Was he from a rescue or a reputable breeder? I've always had good luck with good breeders but my sister got a Golden Retriever from a breeder that she researched well and still had trouble with biting. That kinda blew my theory. I'm sure there are always exceptions to the rule.

I'm always battling between the school of thought where you rescue a dog vs. going to a breeder. I see both sides.

I am sure that with a good trainer the issues can be resolved but it must be frustrating that they are booked. Maybe some of them work on the side? Maybe you can get somebody to refer you for an exception? I'd think even a couple one on one sessions should be helpful. Of course you can only take so many chances when you have such a young one at home. 

I feel for you and the decisions that you have to make. I hope you find a happy solution! Please keep us posted.


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

I just got done crying. I'm very upset. 

*Friday Issue One*
Finn growled at me today. He wasn't eating and wasn't eating, because he does that, he goes for long periods without eating, so I went to hold him to show him the food and I put a little bit of meat near his nose, and he gave me this look, hunched his back and lowered his ears and growled. The look on his face and the way he stared me in the eye gave me the willies. This is not my puppy, I don't understand but this isn't my dog.


*Friday Issue Two*
So tonight I rented the movie for the girls Happy Feet (about penguins) I thought Finn was under my feet just now and Hannah (the 3 year old) watching the movie with Emma my older child, She got up to go to the potty or get on the computer not sure which... And I hear her scream... he bit her (no growl this time) leaving a larger purple bite mark - much darker and deeper but no skin break than the last time on her finger, which swelled up a bit. I don't know the details because I can only go by what my oldest told me, but I know she was holding her stuffed pooh doll and she thinks he went for it, however there was no growl. Now, no growl... not nearly as worried, but he never bites his toys or food hard from my hand, I think he doesn't care for Hannah. After this happened, (I said nothing to him, gave him no reaction) he ran off and hid under the table.

I know, I'm an idiot, I didn't realize he left from under my feet. This is not good. I feel that I cannot turn my back and I don't know what to do. I want to cry. What do I do? Leave him in his crate all day? I feel so so discouraged. He's in his crate. 

One vet and a trainer both told me he is not for a family, that this dog should not be around children. My vet tells me he needs a muzzle. I'm not going to have a dog that needs a muzzle, that's not the family companion I had in mind. But, am I putting a dog before family? Do I give him a fair chance? I don't know what to do. I feel very torn. I worry, if I keep trying to work it out, will the next bite equal out to blood and torn skin? Or will he get over this and everything be OK? It's hard to take a logical approach when it's such an emotional issue.



SECRETO said:


> I hope this is not the case for you but some dogs just won't tolerate children. Even the best of them. It does sound like he is fearful either way but just something to consider later on.
> 
> I do think if you have a family and wanted a family dog, what is the point of having a dog that cannot be trusted arounds kids. I really think you should consider looking to re-home him with a adult (no children) after you feel he is stable enough to be placed. Thats a hard decision to make but it takes away from the children having that great family dog experience too.
> 
> Either way, its sad and not something anyone imagines happening after getting a sweet little puppy. Please don't take any offence to my opinion. I have kids too and couldn't imagine having to go through this.


Not offended at all. I agree with you from my head, but my heart... this is hard. So many what ifs. I love him. I love my kids more. 


Curly - In terms of where we got him from, a hobby breeding couple, older and retired, father dog was stunning, however the mother dog was nervous and shy like Finn and a bit barky. She was a white and his dad was a deep rich red, and his dad was simply regal. He was show dog material, everything about him from his coat to the way he carried himself was stunning. The dad dog just sat there like he was in the show circle, not battling an eye lash at strangers in his home. The mom dog struck me more as a pet quality dog, cute, but very ordinary and again, shy. I think he got his mother's personality. *sigh*


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

I just phoned my husband (he works about an hour away and is stuck at owrk because of a snow storm we had)

I told him what happened, and he told me he doesn't want the dog in the house. I cannot describe how I feel right now.

How do I find him another home? Is there not a way? And if I do find him another home, what if something happens and they have him put to sleep? Oh gosh I don't know what to do or where to turn. I feel sick.

Edited to add
I cannot do it, I cannot get rid of him. It's not right. He's my buddy. I love him. I brought him into my home as my companion, I cannot turn my back on him. So what do I do now? His classes start on the 28th... does he have a chance to turn this around? Do I need to muzzle him like the vet said? *sigh*


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## IPP (Nov 29, 2008)

Well... I was in the same situation you are in with a rescue male for about 2 yrs. I took him in...supposed to be great with kids..so on so forth. 

Well we get him home and he was terrified of men...my husband never even got a chance to even give him a bad impression. From the time he was at our house for 1 day until the day he left, he would bark at my hubby. At that time we had only 1 child, he was 5 at the time...and he didn't like him much either. He would not bark at him, but whenever he saw my son looking at him for more than a minute or headed in his direction, he would run and hide.

He was AWESOME with all women, he would run right up to them with his tail going like mad.

We worked with him until he would tolerate my husband being in our home without barking the whole time, just s little woof whenever Hubby would stand up from sitting or come into the room. MUCH better than barking like hubby was KILLING him whenever hubby came into his range of sight! Obviously he had probably been abused...it took over a year for hubby to actually hold him with him trying to just jump from his arms.

In the end I had to decide what was best FOR THE DOG AND MY FAMILY! R2 was not happy in a home with males...after 2 yrs of living with us he would let a man come in the home, barely bark..but he would hide behind my back, shaking the whole time until they left. 

I did notice that he seemed to treat older men with grey or silver hair not nearly as badly...almost as if he thought "well he can't catch me so no worries!" 

I never offered him up for adoption..I felt in my heart (at the time) this was my mistake for taking in the dog and we just had to live with it. I thought if I couldn't help him, well nobody could and I had "made my bed" and this poor dog was going to be a shaky mess his whole life!

Well I was walking him in our park one day, and a couple came up to me (in their 50-60s I would guess) and asked to pet him. I wasn't sure if he would allow it, but told the women she could, but he was a bit "iffy" around men. Imagine my surprise when R2 walked in between her legs and put his little paw up on the MAN'S leg in that classic "will you pick me up" pose! 

I talked with them a bit, found out they had lost their toy poodle 3 yrs earlier...6 months after they lost their only son. I told them that I had thought about placing R2, but it would have to be a GREAT home with no kids, and no grandkids expected in the next 10 yrs or so...but I went ahead and took their phone number. I honestly never thought I could let him go...but it was just too perfect for me to be so selfish to think he would suddenly like my hubby like he liked this guy he had never even met before.

I think that life works in mysterious ways...just take a long deep breath and decide if you can live with yourself if he hurts a child that IS NOT YOURS! 

I would tend to seek advice from behaviorists more than a vet...I mean a vet is great for some things, but they don't do everything. If my vet told me to muzzle my dogs all the time, I would be very taken back! I understand if they don't want to get bit, but a vet who thinks muzzling a dog all the time may not be giving the best advice.

For now...BABY GATE! Crating is for some things, but NOT punishment. I agree he is not to be trusted around your children right now...but cramming him in his crate all the time will just lead to new problems. I can relate to the kids and toys thing...but perhaps for now you may want to make sure HIS TOYS look nothing like HER TOYS. 

I have one thing for you to try, and i hope I don't get hollered at..but I swear it works for me. A spray bottle set on stream (NOT MIST) with room temp water...you see that lip (or tail) go up and give him a quick squirt with a NO and that may be enough to startle him into figuring out messing with the kids is a big no-no. 

The trick is to NOT let him know you have the bottle...he knows the NO comes from you but the water should be one squirt aimed at the body. Often the "shock" of the water allows you that precious second to clear the mind enough to accept the NO! If its fear biting then often the mind is cloudy with remembering the past trauma...too "cloudy" to promote earning of the acceptable behavior.

Until you can get to a trainer with fear biting or child aggression experience...no play dates for the kids as other parents won't be as understanding of his problems.

You owe it to him to at least try a trainer...but if the trainer is ready to give up easily then its time for a new trainer. If all else fails then don't be afraid to admit that YOU can't help him...he may need to be re-homed to a home with no children living there all the time or maybe no children at all. I don't think there are very few dogs out there that are SO bad that they cannot find any home...but I don't think that a dog in the red zone should be allowed around children at ANY time.

Its not that you have given up on him, its that it was not meant to be...just be sure to be totally truthful to yourself and make sure you are going to be able to sleep at night with whatever decision you make! I think you will be feeling much better after you find someone with actual experience at rehabilitating dogs with issues...but all of us on the forum are certainly willing to try to see you through!

Do you know exactly how old he is...there is some talk that dogs go through a separation stage about the same time as they teeth. Perhaps he is dealing with a lot more than you know right now...a bit of just basic obedience will boost his confidence. 

How about you teach him to SIT, then let your daughter say SIT for you, then YOU give him the treat...maybe if he knows SHE is in charge, too he will stop competing with her entirely. 

I have a feeling that you are experiencing some very bad sibling rivalry, but you are correct in knowing that his actions should not be allowed to continue!

You are a good mommy, you will get through this!:high5:


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

So... I took him out of his crate and had him in my lap. My older daughter Emma (she is almost 11) came downstairs and he gave her this growl/bark thing... I put him into submission (on his back) and gave him a firm "No." He has been doing that a lot lately, to the kids. 

Then, later on, I had him under my chair while I surfed the internet and my 3 year old was on my husband's PC playing kid's games. When Hannah got up to go potty, he growled this very very nasty loud garble crazy type of loud growl and lunged for her little foot. I watched the entire thing, she did nothing what so ever but go within 10 inches of him. He didn't bite her this time, she moved and I was swift. I grabbed him by his neck and put him into submission, told him no, and now, he is in his crate for keeps. To be honest, right now, I'm pretty mad. 

The showing my husband his teeth, the growling, him trying to bite me, the downright his disliking the kids, and him biting Hannah not once but twice, this is him. This is his personality and his genetics. 97% of the time he is a sweetie, but sometimes it's like his wires are crossed or something. I dont' get it. This was NOT the same dog, in the past 3 weeks or so, he has done a complete personality change, I don't get it. And every day and every week that passes by, he gets stranger and stranger and nastier and nastier. He cannot be trusted with my children. I know this. 

Going to call the breeder tomorrow and request they take him back. Right now I feel numb, trying to detach myself.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Gigit said:


> So... I took him out of his crate and had him in my lap. My older daughter Emma (she is almost 11) came downstairs and he gave her this growl/bark thing... I put him into submission (on his back) and gave him a firm "No." He has been doing that a lot lately, to the kids.
> 
> Then, later on, I had him under my chair while I surfed the internet and my 3 year old was on my husband's PC playing kid's games. When Hannah got up to go potty, he growled this very very nasty loud garble crazy type of loud growl and lunged for her little foot. I watched the entire thing, she did nothing what so ever but go within 10 inches of him. He didn't bite her this time, she moved and I was swift. I grabbed him by his neck and put him into submission, told him no, and now, he is in his crate for keeps. To be honest, right now, I'm pretty mad.
> 
> ...


 I think you are making the right decision to either give him him back to breeder or find a home that is willing to work with him and has no children. 

Even I had to make a decision to re-home my Mikey recently due to his insecurities. He just wasn't as happy as he could be in my home, living with males. He loved women though. I was able to find a great family (all girls) that had another Spoo. I cryed and felt bad for giving up but he really is better off. I wasn't told when I got Mikey that he is nervous around males. I started to recongize that even my oldest son (3yrs) was starting to stress him out. I felt good telling his new owner's everything about him so they understood what he is all about. It all worked out and everyone is happy now.
Still I miss him but he's happy now.

It's going to be hard regardless of what your final decision is. You definalty don't want your daughter to be scared walking around the house because the ancle bitter is on the loose. Still, I really feel for you having to make a decision to remove him from your home. It sounds like his agression is progessing fast though. Poor Finn....


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

You need to take him to the vet - he might be sick. Ginger never bit anyone. He may be trying to tell you something is wrong.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

I agree with have a check up done on him to make sure everything is sound, dogs in pain can be very aggressive.

I also agree you should contact the breeder but do not ask for them to take him until you get him checked out. Because I have dealt with a dog who was like this, I had a litter of mixed puppies whom I fostered and they were are very sweet and playful but a tad shy. She growled a couple of times at a few people but I chalked that up to being in a new place and being young and unsure. Well this little girl went to a home an not 10 minutes after they left my home they called and said I had to come get the dog. It bit the woman, and snapped at her grand daughter. She said they trapped her in their garage, so I get there and the woman says be careful as she will lunge at the door, I open it and call to her and she come running to me all wags and kisses. I gave back the adoption fee and took her home, they next day she bit at my mom and my sister and would not let anyone touch her but me. I made the desition to have her put down because I knew I could not keep her and she would never be able to be trusted. She was only 12 weeks old.

So yeah, some dogs are just not happy in family settings but when they start biting it becomes a totally different situation and your options become very limited.


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

Pamela said:


> You need to take him to the vet - he might be sick. Ginger never bit anyone. He may be trying to tell you something is wrong.


The reason I say this is that he started doing this all of a sudden and he is qutite young. Maybe something is hurting him and he doesn't know what so he snaps and bited anyone who might be making him hurt. He is such a sweet looking dog = I hope the vet finds something.


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

I also don't think its just children - he tried to bite you and growled at your husband. I feel for you - if Ginger hadn't straightened out I woudl have been heartsick. Although she still has the fear and she gave the groomers a hard time yesterday. So I don't trust her but so far I am in control.


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

Well he does not seem sick, the vet checked him over with his last shot and we brought to his attention then of his aggression issues, in fact, he growled at the vet. The vet said he is very healthy. When I spoke with the vet on the phone, he reviewed his records and said that this issue is simply fear aggression. Finn's only issue is he is a picky eater, but his weight and health are right on track.

He's very happy, go lucky, seems like the most amazing dog until he gets "strange." He is all wags and licks... a ball of energy... today he had a BLAST playing in the snow after the snow storm we had. But today again, he growled at me (no snapping) for several minutes while I was holding him for no reason. He just turned around, gave me a dirty look and started to growl... and growl... and growl. I put him down and he kept growling... I finally had to put him in his crate (I was alone with him in my room.) While he was in his crate, I gave him some time off and went outside to shovel snow. When I came back in and approached him, he gave me a low warning growl. 10 15 minutes later, he was all sugar and spice and was crying to get out.

The breeders emailed me back today and offered to pick up Finnigan. They paid me a compliment, told me that I did very well, how I stayed in touch with them with photos and updates and how well I trained him. Hearing this feels really good to hear because right now I feel like total garbage. I feel like I quit on my buddy, and my oldest daughter is in her room crying. This is such a sad day.

Finnigan is now living with them while we both work together to find him a new home. I've very happy they are working with me and took him in so Hannah isn't in anger danger of a serious bite, even came to pick him up (my husband is at work.) 

They did bring the mommy dog with them when they came to pick Finn up, and to my surprise, she growled at Hannah a few times - which she did NOT do when we went to meet Finnigan when we first purchased him. She seemed to have a sharp personality, very domineering. I hope the bottom line is he is a funny little moody personality like his mamma and is suited for a family that is experienced with dogs and zero contact with kids.

My heart is just broken. I love him and letting go is very hard. I feel like I had to be forced into a choice I did NOT want to make.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

*Hugs* Sent you an e-mail and a PM


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

WonderPup said:


> *Hugs* Sent you an e-mail and a PM


Thanks so much. Words cannot express how depressed I feel, and the encouraging words mean so much to me.

Before I was born, my folks had an English Springer Spaniel named Spot. He was from what I hear, a total gem, and fabulous with children. They went camping a lot and the dog was heavily socialized and well trained. As he got a bit older, he would growl at kids, and started acting flakey. 

One day the little girl from across the street came over to show mom and dad her new shoes. Spot didn't like her tapping feet, he reached up and bit her face badly and it required multiple plastic surgeries. My parents got sued, the dog got put to sleep, but worse of all, that little girl had a multiple scars on her face for the rest of her life.

I have to stop and remind myself I did the right thing, not only for Hannah, but for Finnigan.

We *DO* want to get a poodle, however next poodle will be when Hannah is older and will be a show quality dog from extremely good bloodlines. Prior to getting a dog, I want to work with the top trainer in our area and have her recommend a great breeder. This is the most painful way to learn a lesson, so many should haves. 

It's not just hard on me, the kids are super upset. They have both had good crys, but... it's better this way than a trip to the ER because of a nasty bite.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

I'm so sorry you had to give him up, did the breeder say any of the other puppies acted that way?

I hope he will grow out of it but I don't know how likely that will be. I have a friend in Sweden who had an English Cocker Spaniel and she acted the same way and they had her for little over a year and just with in the last moth had her put down because she bit several people and got to a point the owners could not touch her or she would attack. My friend contacted the breeder and she told them that pother puppies in the litter acted the same way. 

Its awful to have to give up a pet but you did the responsible thing. About getting another Poodle, if your dead set on showing then go with a fantastic breeder but if you want a companion only Poo I would look for a Poodle only rescue that has a foster home system and save a life. Anyway I'm so sorry.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Oh, I'm so sorry, but maybe this was for the best?
I wish you luck with finding a new poo and hopefully
Finnigan will find a new home and grow out of all that.

:hug:


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## Gigit (Oct 13, 2008)

Purple Poodle said:


> I'm so sorry you had to give him up, did the breeder say any of the other puppies acted that way?
> 
> I hope he will grow out of it but I don't know how likely that will be. I have a friend in Sweden who had an English Cocker Spaniel and she acted the same way and they had her for little over a year and just with in the last moth had her put down because she bit several people and got to a point the owners could not touch her or she would attack. My friend contacted the breeder and she told them that pother puppies in the litter acted the same way.
> 
> Its awful to have to give up a pet but you did the responsible thing. About getting another Poodle, if your dead set on showing then go with a fantastic breeder but if you want a companion only Poo I would look for a Poodle only rescue that has a foster home system and save a life. Anyway I'm so sorry.


Their bitch had two litters, and they told me today that they have had a few from their litters that were extremely shy and fearful, the details I do not know as they don't maintain contact with the puppies owners (just me.) I do know one was so bad that it had to get specialized training. I did NOT know this when purchasing Finn. I do know they are not doing any more litters and recently had their girl fixed. 

I will say this, when they came today they brought the mother dog. She growled several times and seemed very nervous. I think Finnigan is not like his father in personality, he is like his mother. I did not know the mother dog was this way, I know knew she was barky. They stated when we initially got Finn, that she didn't like her puppies being taken and after our initial introduction, they put her in another room. Now, I see WHY. I do feel they are GREAT people, them taking Finn back and even driving out here to get him shows they have good character. I knew going into it they were not "serious" show breeders, simply hobby breeders.

The stud was so amazing in every way, that I concentrated on him, you know? I think I ignored what I really knew under it all... It's my fault for not finding a better match for our family, I accept this responsibility and know I made a serious mistake when selecting the right puppy for the family. When you hold that little pup in your hands, the little ball of orange fluff, it is terribly hard to not listen to your head instead of your heart. It's a very sad lesson for me to have learned.

It's not always about looks when breeding, breeding for good temperament is even more important.

My only hope now is that whatever home Finn gets, he has zero contact with children. Eventually, he will bite for real. this 4 and a half month old puppy meant business, the growls are getting nastier and nastier, and his last bite attempt was downright vicious.

In terms of a future pup, I don't think I can go with a rescue, too many what if's on background. When we do get another Poodle, it will have to be from amazing well tempered blood lines.


Mercy, thanks *hugs you* Today is such a depressing day. I cannot stop crying


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## IPP (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh I am so sorry! Please don't feel like a failure! Some things were just not meant to be.

Did Finn's breeder have a chance to socialize him when he was young with children? I would assume if momma is not a big fan of the little kids, then they probably don't have any at home?

There are so many options you can go through when you are ready to add to your family...but for now you go ahead and grieve your loss. 

I know its hard having to send him back, but you really did have to...and for that you are a better person than some. 

I agree that if you are looking for a companion then don't look for who is pretty or has the most champ in its background, take the kids with you and let your puppy pick your family. 

If the pup parents are both happy to see you and the kids, then chances are pretty good that the pups have grown up in a good socialization situation. If the breeder won't even let your kids come, or the adults and pups act like they have no idea what a child even is, then no matter how cute the pups are...they may not be the best fit.

I wish you all the luck in the world, and I really feel for your heart. 

I know what doing the responsible thing sometimes doesn't make you feel like you are doing the "right" thing to your heart...but things could have been so much worse for your daughter that you should be proud as a parent and responsible dog owner. 

I really hope you do find that puppy or adult poo of your dreams...and that all works out so you can have a loving poo that is great with the whole family!


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Gigit said:


> In terms of a future pup, I don't think I can go with a rescue, too many what if's on background. When we do get another Poodle, it will have to be from amazing well tempered blood lines.


Huh, not to be rude but the background on Finn was a bit iffy as well. Just don't completely rule out a rescue, there are some really awesome homeless Poodles out there who need homes and are great with kids. 

Again I'm sorry for your loss.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

I'd have to agree on the rescue option. I woudln't try and force my opnions on another, but since you asked for it (oh boy... ) I can tell you that there are some really great dogs out there in need. If you go through a good rescue group, you can sometimes get a younger dog who has just been misfotunate in the good owner department. Just like a good breeder a rescue group should be able to match you with a dog who will fit in with your family. Remember, it's in their best interest to get the dog in the best home they can. Afterall they DON'T want the dog back in rescue. Then again if you are more comfortable starting from scratch you should be well informed on what to look for in a good breeder  You've certainly got a good head start on training.


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

Gigit said:


> Well he does not seem sick, the vet checked him over with his last shot and we brought to his attention then of his aggression issues, in fact, he growled at the vet. The vet said he is very healthy. When I spoke with the vet on the phone, he reviewed his records and said that this issue is simply fear aggression. Finn's only issue is he is a picky eater, but his weight and health are right on track.
> 
> He's very happy, go lucky, seems like the most amazing dog until he gets "strange." He is all wags and licks... a ball of energy... today he had a BLAST playing in the snow after the snow storm we had. But today again, he growled at me (no snapping) for several minutes while I was holding him for no reason. He just turned around, gave me a dirty look and started to growl... and growl... and growl. I put him down and he kept growling... I finally had to put him in his crate (I was alone with him in my room.) While he was in his crate, I gave him some time off and went outside to shovel snow. When I came back in and approached him, he gave me a low warning growl. 10 15 minutes later, he was all sugar and spice and was crying to get out.
> 
> ...


Oh I really feel for you - there were times when I thought I was going to take Ginger back to the breeder but I was afraid and I didn't have little children so I toughed it out. But she still scares me when the grandkids get rough and she growls and I have to keep her away from the great grandbaby who pulls dogs hair. I think you made the right choice. It was too great a risk to your daughter. This fear agression is really a shame but seems to be inherited. I think Ginger's is inherited also. If you look at the pix I posted of Ginger and Teddy you can tell the difference - she looks away = scared of cameria I tguess but she is funny. Wish you the best and don't beat yourself up you did your best with him - really!:santaclaus:


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