# Max works with a trainer - Part 2



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i am kind of surprised that the trainer has not explained to you what is behind her approach. maybe you should ask her if you should be asking all your guests to behave in the same way toward max? frankly, it sounds like a variation on the much-reviled cesar milan's "no touch, no talk, no eye contact" approach to highly reactive dogs - which i think in theory is supposed to keep the dog from feeling threatened.


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## Chells_Aura (Dec 7, 2012)

I have not used a dap infuser... but I did have the dap collar pushed on us from our vet. We didn't notice anything until we took the collar off her... and then she got really anxious and reeaally barky. They are too expensive to buy here in Canada (50$ each) so I ordered some from amazon.com and am having my Aunt bring them up with her when she comes to visit!

I'll try to remember to post anything that I notice when we put the collar back on her!

note: we used the adaptil collar... we found the Sentry collar at a pet food store here but 1. it was covered in a horrible powder that went everywhere and 2. it broke when we were trying to put it on Chell... so not very high quality imho. We put it by one of her beds to try and get 'something' from it... but don't think that did anything.


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## murphys (Mar 1, 2012)

Hi. Sorry this is so long.

I'm going to take a guess that the trainer is taking a hands off approach because Max is not comfortable. This would be why he is barking and growling. 

We are working with a CAAB Behavorist with Fritz as he came to us with fear issues. He growls when he is unsure of something or someone, for instance, on our walk this morning he was skittish and growling at a large garbage can. It took a few minutes before he would go up and touch it. Our meeting with her was a hour and a half long and during that time she did not touch him. He was allowed to roam the room and he could explore and come and sniff her but she did not reach out to him. He would approach her while learning touch, she would toss a treat near him and then he would realize he didn't know her and back away after a few times of touch and treat. Then he would repeat. What she told us is that he is reserved and cautious and needs time to be comfortable, that people cannot be allowed to force their attention on him. Because Fritz is strikingly handsome and a poodle , people can be extremely rude or just uninformed on dog manners. It is up to me to control them and protect Fritz. As he becomes more confident that I can do that, he has continued improving but he will never be totally comfortable with unfamiliar situations or people right off the bat.

Perhaps the leash because he bit from behind? Just a guess.

As far as the doors, she explained that doors and people coming and going can be very stressful for dogs. We are beginning to work on ringing doorbells and sending him to his mat to settle when unfamiliar people come in the house. The mat needs to be where he can see all but he is out of the main flow of traffic. People are to leave him alone until he approaches them. The steps are more extensive then that but that is the jist of it. 

For situations where he is reactive (growling, barking) we are clicker training for "look at that" and "look at me" and "turn" so that he sees it and then he looks at us, treat, and we continue on our way, either past the offending person/thing if possible or on a different path. My question for your trainer would be if he doesn't growl or bark, how do you know he is stressed. I was given a list of behaviors to look for which indicate he is stressed, from puffing lips to avoiding eye contract ...

She also suggested Agility, Tracking or some type of work as it helps to gain confidence.

All that being said, Fritz has come leaps and bounds from where he was. We are working to prevent him from ever becoming a fear biter. He will be trained to a basket muzzle at some point should he ever need one or if he were every hurt. Not because he is bad, but for his protection. Frankly, people might not be so fast to run up to him which might make him and me more relaxed. It would give me time to explain the rules.

Hopefully sharing this with you helps.


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## Specman (Jun 14, 2012)

Murphys,

Thank you very much for your reply! We are going through a very stressful time with Max right now. With everything that is happening in our house right now I am not sure that we will be able to stay the course with Max's training and I am not sure what that will ultimately mean for him, but it helps to hear about others with similar issues.

We have practiced "Touch" with our family members but never with the trainer. Maybe she wants to remain a stranger to him. I also do "Watch" or "Look at me" with him when we are out.

We did agility with him and stopped because he was fearful of the obstacles and I felt it was not helping him become more confident.

We had relatives over for my grandson's first birthday yesterday and he was fine with my kids and my grandson but everyone was concerned about having him around my daughter-in-laws parents who he had not met. They came later and we locked him in the bedroom prior to their arrival. He barked, cried, and whined loudly which was an issue for our family and guests. I put him on a leash at my side for the rest of the evening but it create a very stressful situation for all.

Maybe a muzzle is a better idea and he would not have to be confined and would not be a potential danger to others! 

I am not sure what happened to the 6 month old puppy that jumped on my lap at the breeder's house, but I feel that must be doing something wrong to have a 2 year old dog that is so anti-social.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

here's a site i found which seems to me to be non-doctrinaire on training issues. the author attempts to explain various behavioral issues and schools of thought re training. i think it may be helpful to browse the site to gain a perspective on the sources of behavioral issues. human behavior is only one affective component and may not even be causative in creating a fearful dog.

Need help training your dog? Learn all the best methods!


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## murphys (Mar 1, 2012)

Hi,

I sent you a private message. 

I found our CAAB Behavorist here: Directory of Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists — Animal Behavior Society: Applied Animal Behavior

I'm still looking for a trainer I'm totally comfortable with.

I know with Fritz, it is my job to make sure he doesn't feel threatened. If that means that I need to tell people to leave him alone or not to reach over his head or not to pet him than that is what I have to do. He loves most people but he doesn't like hands over his head from people he doesn't know. 

It sounds like having him by your side worked for him. I had to do that when we had someone over our home who kept making Fritz uneasy by being loud, waving his hands and being generally over the top. We too put him in another room and that did not go well. Once he was quiet we brought him down with us on a leash and he didn't bark and loved on everyone and just settled as long as that person left him alone. The family ran interference. 

By the way, that trash can he was so afraid of, this morning he glanced at it and just kept going. No big deal. Try to remember to appreciate the small steps forward. 

Have fun. I'm sure it seems overwhelming. Take one day at a time. At some point, you will look back and say wow look how far we've come. 

Susan


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

The trainer should also be giving a treat even if he DOES bark or growl. 

The reason why is because he needs to develop a positive conditioned emotional response to replace his negative emotional response. If he barks or growls, he's uncomfortable towards the subject (let's use the trainer in this instance) and this needs be changed. If he's over threshold (what he can handle without reacting), it's not great that he's over threshold but it's GREAT that he's communicating this. You WANT him to let you know when he can't deal, instead of silently enduring until he can't stand it anymore and needs to take matters into his own teeth! If he knew that communicating his discomfort would put a stop to whatever he was uncomfortable with, then he wouldn't have bitten in the past. This is one of the lessons the trainer should be helping him to learn. 

If his discomfort is ignored (the barking and growling), it's going untreated. Withholding the treat doesn't accomplish anything, no counter conditioning is going on. You're not countering the negative with a positive. I also don't understand your leaving the room for ten minutes when he barks or growls. First off, it makes no sense to punish a dog for having emotions. Secondly, even if it did make sense, ten minutes is MUCH too long for a dog. Is he supposed to reflect on his behavior for 10 minutes?? That would require human logic and reasoning and dogs aren't humans. Third, you want to be there for him when he's fearful so he knows that he can rely on you to protect him so he doesn't have to bite anyone.

I'm wondering whether your trainer thinks that giving a treat when he barks or growls is "rewarding" him for being fearful. You can't reward an emotional state. It's not an operant behavior. 

Sorry, it's late and I'm not being very clear. In short, the barking and growling are symptoms of his underlying emotional state. If you change the underlying emotional state for the better, the barking and the growling no longer will occur because the fear is no longer there to produce the barking and growling. Thus, it's in no way "rewarding his fear", you're in fact CHANGING his fearful emotional state into a more positive, secure emotional state. And your punishing him by leaving the room does nothing to change his emotions, except maybe for the worse, it may make him even more anxious which can lead to more fear.

One thing to take into consideration, is that for counter conditioning and desensitization to work well, the trainer should be keeping him below his threshold to help prevent getting him to the point where he feels that he needs to growl and bark. Below threshold, he can be more rational and under control and open to his behavior modification lessons. Over threshold, he's in survival mode and doesn't have a cool head. He's more interested in self preservation than learning the lessons the trainer is trying to teach him. Also, some dogs can become addicted to the adrenaline rush of being in survival mode. You want to prevent him from entering that mode.

I hope she's not deliberately working him up over threshold?

You might find this short blog and short video very helpful, they explain it a lot better than I do: Myth of reinforcing fear | Fearful Dogs

If it's all working, then that's very good, but I'm afraid your trainer might not have such a firm grasp on behavioral science. If you find the training to not be so helpful, or have concerns yourself, I would opt for a CAAB as murphys suggested.


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## poodlecrazy51 (Dec 31, 2012)

MSMinnamouse. WOW. excellent advice and intuitive reasoning. In working with a highly reactive puppy myself, all you said made very good sense to me. And I would be concerned that Max has the right trainer for HIM. To SPECMAN: I do applaud you for all your love and effort to help Max. You need all the support and help you can get from other poodle/dog lovers. No criticisms of you from me, ever. Only empathy. The DAP collar did maybe help our puppy the one time we used one. They last about 4 weeks. It was just over $30. It was hard to tell if it really helped, but, when it expired and I removed it, I really think her anxiety level went up a tad. But I was working on other things to help her accept her environment. I do know that "flooding" needs to be approached with caution, not too much, but some is needed for them to advance in their confidence. Pretty tricky, and every dog, of course, is different. I was given a bandana that had a DAP spray on it. It will last several days or so. I only put that on when she was up for the day. I took if off at nite, and kept it in a thick ziplock baggy. I didn't buy the spray, but I wonder if it would go farther thus costing less. You tie it so it is right under their nose, so it maybe worth looking into. I didn't have any luck with the Thundershirt, the actual trade mark name. It did nothing for her. It was in the heat of summer, and I just couldn't feel good putting that hot thing on her. Plus, she did not have any issues with even violent T-storms or 4th of July fireworks put on by the city, right next to our farm. 
And people say, it is most effective for those situations, not so much for anxiety to other situations. I did "jackpot" her with treats during those times. That means, rapid fire feeding of teeny yummy tidbits keeping a constant flow especially when you know the next thunder or firework is about to happen. (It also helped her to have 2 very laid back balanced tolerant older spoos laying next to her and me.) So I do think jackpotting does help lure their attention away from what is upsetting to them, thus you are also teaching them to focus on you. So they learn to trust you and look to you for comfort. I also used the "go to your mat" exercise. There are other self-soothing training techniques out there. I bought the book, Control Unleashed, which was really written for agility dogs that are stressed with that activity, but so many of her principles and techniques and training exercises apply to just good dog training. I do know, that stifling a dog's natural reaction or defense of his fears, is not so good. As you know, dogs have an escalating alert response. You will get so you can recognize the very first and very slightest warning he is giving you. So you can react to calm him. Our now only spoo, lonely and still sad after losing her 2 spoo buddies this summer, went to her first agility class last nite. She was over the top joyful and, hmmm, for her, out of control excited and anxious, panting, sweaty paws. She is that therapy type dog, so it was odd to see her behavior. I sat her down, and started stroking her very very slowly, with some pressure in my hand, all the way down from the top of her head to her tail. over and over, for 5-10 minutes. I could just feel the anxiety being released. She took deeper breaths. I was taking louder deeper breaths which somehow makes them copy that. It was amazing. I learned that from Control Unleashed. (we do really big deep breaths training our horses, they actually copy us, and it is natural for them to do that deep breath when they are happy and at peace, "a sigh of relief", and it really calms them down.) You are going in the right direction, help is out there, but you do need to be sure it is the right person. Listen to your gut. Your love of this dog, and your dedication to him will help lead you the right way. I will always remember all the advice and support PF gave me. Max is so lucky to have you as his advocate.


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## Specman (Jun 14, 2012)

msminnimouse,

Thanks for the advise. I need to clarify what is my trainers intent. She is working with Max to slowly raise his fear threshold by bringing him into situations that are close to those that make him reactive. When he is comfortable and not stress he is treated. When he becomes reactive he is removed from the situation. 

I think that the trainer was becoming frustrated after doing 30 or so attempts with Max without a positive response and wanted to isolate him for a few seconds so that he could reset. He was eventually able to do the exercise. It just took a while.

As we all know, poodles are smart complex dogs that can really give us a run for our money!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

msminnamouse said:


> The trainer should also be giving a treat even if he DOES bark or growl.
> 
> The reason why is because he needs to develop a positive conditioned emotional response to replace his negative emotional response. If he barks or growls, he's uncomfortable towards the subject (let's use the trainer in this instance) and this needs be changed. If he's over threshold (what he can handle without reacting), it's not great that he's over threshold but it's GREAT that he's communicating this. You WANT him to let you know when he can't deal, instead of silently enduring until he can't stand it anymore and needs to take matters into his own teeth! If he knew that communicating his discomfort would put a stop to whatever he was uncomfortable with, then he wouldn't have bitten in the past. This is one of the lessons the trainer should be helping him to learn.
> 
> ...


:adore::adore::adore:


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Giving him a break to reset is a good idea. 

I remembered this video and thought you of. You might find it interesting.

She's not saying that snapping is good, she's saying that blowing in his face is good. So he stops snapping because his emotional response to being blown in the face has changed. 

Training Aggression | Videos | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


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