# Breeding blues with red/apricot colours



## Leooonie

I am intrigued as to how colours like cage-au-lait come about..
is this something to do with breeding blues to red coloured poodles?

What colours do you generally breed together, and what do you NOT breed together colour-wise?

Does the depth of colour make a difference who you breed to?


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## roulette

Check out Arpeggio Poodles website, they have a great color breeding analysis there.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

No, breeding blues to reds did not create Cafes. Breeding to off colours depends on what you are trying to achieve. I myself would not breed a blue to a red unless the blue had a lot to offer to help me improve structure. NOLA did it and got a lovely litter of apricots and blues, who have gorgeous structure but likely all carry a dilute gene.


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## Leooonie

I have just come across the Arpeggio website... hadn't thought of the fading gene in quite that way before ie apricots/creams being dilutes of reds, and silvers/blues dilute from black.. I had only thought of a black dog gradually fading with a white face etc..much like labs.

Infact, looking into it... cafe-au-lait, and silver beige are not on the list of recognised poodle colours by the British KC.. and it doesnt mention preference of point colour for any of the reds apricots or creams.


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## outwest

If I breed my poodle, I am interested in trying to get more apricots, but I don't want to introduce the fading gene. I wish there was a way to be sure, but I don't think mine has it as she got darker and is from nonfading blacks. I am hoping to choose a nonfading black dog without silver or blue ancestry, but with apricot. I love silver and blue, but I think it could mess up apricot and black. Mine likely carries brown as well since there were brown litter mates. I don't know how that would play into it. The good thing is her brown siblings have not faded - yet. No one is holding their breath, since most browns fade at some point, but they are 14 months old with no fading. It seems hopeful mine doesn't carry the fading gene. Her breeder said she can't produce parti/cafes/brindle or the other rarer colors as she has none of it in her genes. Since she is apricot, she could produce a darker apricot if bred to a dark apricot or red, though. It is all very complicated!

My priorities would be health, personality, conformation then color. It is going to be really hard to find them all.


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## Keithsomething

Outwest being an apricot she already HAS the fading gene...

Has anyone seen a single red that hasn't faded? No...so the dilution is already there, bringing blue in isn't going to be the end of the world! From what I've seen toy and mini breeders ahve been breeding red/apricots to blues for decades and they seem to be doing just fine ^_^

My girl is out of a SUPER faded red/apricot bitch to a blue and she has cleared from a light apricot to a VERY light cream (if I chose to use whitening shampoos she'd be white)...to blame her sire for her fading would be foolish when her dam has "cleared" more so than the blue

Focus on structure, like Outwest said...

"you first must build your house before you paint it" - the most sage advice I've ever been given

I want to add that colour always has to be in the back of a colour breeders mind...but breeding to a blue isn't going to kill that like breeding to a silver or a brown would (for apricots at least)


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## Fluffyspoos

Cafe is a brown dilute, I doubt you would get it to a blue apricot. Maybe silver to a brown?

I think a breeder should look more into structure, breed standard, and temperament before looking into color. If you focus on color first, sure, you have nice color, but you'll have ugly dogs!

NOLA bred a red to a blue, she did this because the dog had the points she was looking for, obviously. Was color top priority? Obviously not, and her male keeper is almost finished with his AKC CH, quite a big accomplishment! Also, he's probably one of the prettiest colored dogs I've ever seen.


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## outwest

Keithsomething said:


> Outwest being an apricot she already HAS the fading gene...
> 
> Has anyone seen a single red that hasn't faded? No...so the dilution is already there, bringing blue in isn't going to be the end of the world! From what I've seen toy and mini breeders ahve been breeding red/apricots to blues for decades and they seem to be doing just fine ^_^
> 
> My girl is out of a SUPER faded red/apricot bitch to a blue and she has cleared from a light apricot to a VERY light cream (if I chose to use whitening shampoos she'd be white)...to blame her sire for her fading would be foolish when her dam has "cleared" more so than the blue
> 
> Focus on structure, like Outwest said...
> 
> "you first must build your house before you paint it" - the most sage advice I've ever been given
> 
> I want to add that colour always has to be in the back of a colour breeders mind...but breeding to a blue isn't going to kill that like breeding to a silver or a brown would (for apricots at least)


Zyrcona's color theories wouldn't be quite right then if mine already had the fading gene. Are you saying the fading gene is attached to the color itself rather than a separate entity? I don't know about that. 

I love blue dogs. Are blue dogs 'blue' and don't fade like nonfading black dogs are black? You think I shouldn't steer away from a dog with blue ancestry, but do try to stay away from silver? (I love silver, by the way). 

No, I have never seen a red that didn't fade, but red irish setters do not fade. It has got to be possible to eventually breed a nonfading red. Poodle breeders haven't been at it long enough. Browns used to always fade, but there are some that don't now.

I'll take structure over color any day, but I like color, too.


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## outwest

Fluffyspoos said:


> NOLA bred a red to a blue, she did this because the dog had the points she was looking for, obviously. Was color top priority? Obviously not, and her male keeper is almost finished with his AKC CH, quite a big accomplishment! Also, he's probably one of the prettiest colored dogs I've ever seen.


Do you have a link for us to look at?


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## Fluffyspoos

outwest said:


> Do you have a link for us to look at?


Simply look through her breed page.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...593803814.33970.120065241407716&type=1&ref=nf

Obviously she's doing something right (;


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## Keithsomething

I haven't seen a single red that hasn't faded to some degree at some point in its life in ANY variety (reds have been in mini's and toys since the creation of the breed)

The dilution gene is already there, so breeding to a blue isn't going to worsen anything. The boy Tabatha kept out of her blue to red breeding is no lighter than a dog from a white to red breeding or a black to red breeding...Also he's stunning...so thats just a plus really hahaha


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## outwest

Thank you, fluffyspoos. He is beautiful.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

outwest said:


> If I breed my poodle, I am interested in trying to get more apricots, but I don't want to introduce the fading gene. I wish there was a way to be sure, but I don't think mine has it as she got darker and is from nonfading blacks. I am hoping to choose a nonfading black dog without silver or blue ancestry, but with apricot. I love silver and blue, but I think it could mess up apricot and black. Mine likely carries brown as well since there were brown litter mates. I don't know how that would play into it. The good thing is her brown siblings have not faded - yet. No one is holding their breath, since most browns fade at some point, but they are 14 months old with no fading. It seems hopeful mine doesn't carry the fading gene. Her breeder said she can't produce parti/cafes/brindle or the other rarer colors as she has none of it in her genes. Since she is apricot, she could produce a darker apricot if bred to a dark apricot or red, though. It is all very complicated!
> 
> My priorities would be health, personality, conformation then color. It is going to be really hard to find them all.[/quot
> 
> If red breeders are interested in improving conformation, they are going to need to breed to other colours. Constantly breeding red to red is not going to do that. NOLA's boy is a stunning example of what bringing in other colour can do for structure. He is a black dog with yellow hair.


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## zyrcona

Leooonie said:


> I am intrigued as to how colours like cage-au-lait come about..
> is this something to do with breeding blues to red coloured poodles?
> 
> What colours do you generally breed together, and what do you NOT breed together colour-wise?
> 
> Does the depth of colour make a difference who you breed to?


Café au lait is believed to be the genetic equivalent of clearing blue but on a brown coat. Usually, blue and café are Vv, but there is a much rarer 'dilution' gene that is recessive (dd) that causes a dog to be born blue (or Weimaraner colour in brown dogs). There are also various lighter shades of black that some people describe as blue.

d is an allele that has been mapped and can be genetically tested for. It only affects eumelanin coat colours (black and brown) and phaeomelanin colours (red etc) are unaffected.

V has not been mapped and cannot be tested for, and is thus theoretical. However, in black-born dogs, it seems to be predictably inherited and expressed, with vv being non-clearing, Vv being clearing blue, and VV being clearing silver. Clearing brown colours may be affected by other factors other than or as well as the V gene. Unlike d, V affects phaeomelanin as well as eumelanin colours, and will cause apricots and reds to 'wash out'.

Apricots and reds who are genetically vv should not wash out, although their colour may change over their lifetime. VV and Vv dogs will lose their original red colour dramatically and end up cream or white.

There seem to be at least two other genes that control the colour of reds and apricots, which are both theoretical. They are C and R. The alleles of these genes are thought to interact to produce a wide spectrum of colour strength in dogs ranging from red to apricot to cream to white.

(You can get cafés from combinations of brown-carrying blacks/blues/silvers or from combinations of these with browns, cafés, and silver beiges. When trying to breed brown spectrum colours (any colour that is born brown), ee colours (red, apricot, cream, white) are usually avoided as they increase the chance of getting eebb puppies (brown nosers) in a litter. When breeding ee dogs, clearing colours are usually avoided as it makes it hard to predict which puppies will lose their colour when they mature)


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## outwest

Keith believes apricot already carries the fading gene just by being apricot. A nonfading apricot would/could still pass on a fading gene. I had thought if I chose a nonfading sire (vv), my [presumed vv] apricot would produce pups that do not fade. Instead it sounds far too complicated to predict from what is known so far. Still, maybe there is a chance of that happening. Heck, it's worth a shot.


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## CharismaticMillie

I could be incorrect but I think what Keith is saying is that apricot is a dilute color and thus would carry the fading gene.


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## outwest

That is what I am asking Zyrcona about. Is it true? Obviously apricot is lighter than red, but if the dog didn't fade from red to apricot or apricot to lighter apricot or cream, what makes Keith so sure the dog carries the fading gene? I think that gene is separate from the color, not attached to the color.


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## CharismaticMillie

outwest said:


> That is what I am asking Zyrcona about. Is it true? Obviously apricot is lighter than red, but if the dog didn't fade from red to apricot or apricot to lighter apricot or cream, what makes Keith so sure the dog carries the fading gene? I think that gene is separate from the color, not attached to the color.


Very few if not all apricots fade so I think it's fairly safe to say the fading gene is likely present with an apricot dog. Same is true with cream.


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## farleysd

Not all apricots fade, several darken. But all mammal's fade with age, even we do!

We have found over the years of breeding apricot and red to black, white, the black dogs that come from good apricot or red lines are a deeper black that holds much better. Two examples I can think of is my girl Winnie, she was from an apricot mother and a black father. She was deep black and at 14 was 95% black. Sunny was from the same apricot mother bred to a blue father (registered black) at age 10 he was 90% black.

Ivy was out of a red mother and a white/cream father, she was born almost white and turned a medium apricot. 

Shiloh was out of a red mother and a black father, he was born almost white and turned almost red. 

Dona was out of a black father and a red mother and she was born medium apricot and turned deep red.

Any of the puppies that darken were born with a weird silverish cast.

Terry
Farleys D Standard
"One must first build a house before painting it!"


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## outwest

farleysd said:


> Not all apricots fade, several darken. But all mammal's fade with age, even we do!
> 
> Any of the puppies that darken were born with a weird silverish cast.
> 
> Terry
> Farleys D Standard
> "One must first build a house before painting it!"


That's what I was trying to say. Mine had that weird cast and has darkened. Arreau's new red puppy has that obvious weird silvery cast to her, too. She said those puppies darken. I believe that not all apricots fade and not all carry the fading gene, even if they are a dilute color. I think the fading gene is a separate entity.


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## NOLA Standards

In a conversation with Pom breeders - who breed for color and conformation as we do - they (collectively - the probably 8 breeders at the table) said that red poms (which are truly sable and not red by the pure definition of the color) born with the silver caste Farley's D is talking about do always darken AND they have blue in the line - without fail.

I just found that a fascinating tidbit I filed away for future reference.

Much like the white toenails on the blue pups in their first 24 hours of life.

I (erroneously) believed Ruby would not have blue pups - as she was a lovely red at 5 - but she had 3 blues- which ment she carried dilute to share with Carter. (Yet another reason I remain convinced reds carry dilute).

The best we have is what we have experienced, what we can gain from other's experience and some decent theories about the color - though I'm pretty vocal about the theory that dilutes are passed by both parents in varying combinations and that affects the color of the pups. That's the only explanation I have for the color differences in a litter of red bred to red - out of red - x2 (that's even a repeat breeding) :alberteinstein:

As Terry said, I have been told that blacks from red breedings are truly beautiful blacks and I have seen some of the offspring and agree.

I've been told that apricots are dilutes but don't agree. They are not from red (in many/most instances) so what are they dilutes of--black?? moving toward white which is the abscence of color? I know it's been said, but what is the theory there? 

Lombardi has darkened. He even has those gorgeous burgundy red guard hairs like Annie and B.

Irma and Deuce are still beautiful blacks.

Avery (the blue pup I see the most of) is distinctly blue.

B is noticably lighter (red still but no longer the flaming red she was. This seemed to occur right as she turned 2 and can be clearly seen if you examine her topknot hair and neck hair as it is basically her "life").

Annie went much lighter and since having her first litter has darkened - Ruby did as well though so I'm wondering hormones or those mysterious fading/darkening genes??

Rose (the apricot female I kept) is a lovely color - but she and Lombardi started the same color and she does not seem to have darkened. Granted she isn't sporting show coat!

(Thanks for the compliments btw. The litter that produced Lombardi (and Irma and Rose) could have very well spoiled me for life. I was incredibly fortunate and realize it.)

Pictures of the blue (Avery), apricot (Lombardi -his win photo cutout against a white background that I used for his PCA ad - maybe not fair cause it POPS! and Rose) and black (Irma and Deuce) are attached.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## NOLA Standards

Thought I'd post Annie at 1 year old and at 2 years old and at her breeding and then on Christmas Day - when she was supposed to have my "Christmas Presents". Just so you guys can see the color changes that occured in her.

Red to red breeding for 4 generations. She does have a silver in her 7th generation I think it is...but no blue (or no dogs that were REGISTERED blue!)

Annie (and B) I think are pretty typical of reds. They ALL fade. Some darken adn then fade, some fade then darken some, and fade... 

One day maybe we will know why...

Wouldn't that just be the coolest thing!

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## outwest

I can not see how apricot would be a dilute of red when there is no red to be found. 

Interesting to note: I searched back through my dogs pedigree to see if I could find any blues. Eight generations back on both sides is a pretty decent pile of blues. My dog is not red, but has darkened several shades from a grayish taupe color clearing to apricot. I was so surprised when she started doing that as I expected her to turn creamy white. 

It is hard for me to believe that colors 8 generations ago would have much influence now, though. But, if darkening dogs all need to have blue somewhere, mine does on both sides. Perhaps we should all look for some blues if you have a dog that darkens. It may just be another piece in the puzzle. 

It was nice that someone put all those colors in poodle pedigree, by the way.

We need some risk takers. People who think for themselves, draw their own conclusions and go against all accepted knowledge are the ones who ultimately make the most difference. Sometimes they lose, but when they win, they can win big.


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## zyrcona

The dilution gene d only affects eumelanin (black and brown) colours. It causes dogs that are black or brown or have markings in either of these colours to be born lighter in these areas.

The gene usually responsible for blueness and silverness in poodles is theorised to be V. It is not found in many breeds. It affects both phaeomelanin and eumelanin colours and causes a dog to lose the colour it was born. The Arpeggio website has a lot of useful information on it, but some of it doesn't seem to fit either with the current theory or with what breeders I know have observed, and the assertion that apricot colours *always* carry genes that cause fading is one of them. Some apricots do have V genes and lose their colour, but so far as I know it's impossible to tell at birth which ones do.

The ultimate acid test as to whether an apricot dog carries clearing genes is to breed it with an EE black (who is definitely not silver or blue). If the apricot carries no clearing genes, only black will result. If it does, some of the puppies will be blue. An apricot dog that was born apricot and is still apricot at two years old is unlikely to carry a clearing gene.

The 'dilution' responsible for apricot, cream, and white colours is theoretical and usually termed either c or i. This only affects phaeomelanin (reddish colours) and causes red dogs to be born a lighter shade.

I know two people who breed apricot dogs that stay approximately the same colour as they are born. The colour sometimes varies slightly in that the darkest dog in the litter may not be the darkest when they are two years old, but they don't wash out and they stay within the same colour bracket. One person bred her dark apricot bitch to a light apricot dog twice. All the puppies were apricot, but it was obvious that they were two different shades of apricot, with some being light and others being darker. The other bred her light apricot bitch to a red and black phantom dog. Some of the puppies were black, and the rest were in four different shades: red, dark apricot, light apricot, and cream.

My own bitch is light apricot, and came from a breeding of a white bitch from black ancestry to a washed-out apricot-born dog from a blue dam (obviously colour wasn't the main priority with this mating). The puppies were half cream and half light apricot. Half of them likely got the V from their dad and washed out. My dog flipped heads and got a v instead of a V, and remained light apricot.

The colour genetics isn't *my* theory _per se_, but is based on established genetic knowledge and current theory of the genes that haven't been mapped. The theoretical genes undoubtedly need more research, and poodles do seem to have a few weird genes not seen in many other breeds. If you have time, these links may help to explain it.

Dog Coat Color Genetics
Color Genes in the Poodle


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## outwest

I had a chance to read those websites again. Mine is 14 months old and appears to be continuing to developing more apricot coloring. If mine remains light apricot as a two year old, she may have the v gene.

I know if I bred her to an apricot I would get apricot puppies, but I would like to breed to a black to strengthen the holding power on black points. Would a black dog need to have an apricot parent in order to (hopefully) get some apricot puppies, too? Or, would it be alright if it was further back? 

Just a best quess. I know a lot of it is theoretical.


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## zyrcona

outwest said:


> I had a chance to read those websites again. Mine is 14 months old and appears to be continuing to developing more apricot coloring. If mine remains light apricot as a two year old, she may have the v gene.
> 
> I know if I bred her to an apricot I would get apricot puppies, but I would like to breed to a black to strengthen the holding power on black points. Would a black dog need to have an apricot parent in order to (hopefully) get some apricot puppies, too? Or, would it be alright if it was further back?
> 
> Just a best quess. I know a lot of it is theoretical.


Probably your best bet in this case is to look for a black stud who has been used before on an apricot bitch and, of the non-black puppies, produced an all or mostly apricot litter with some dark apricot shades. A black dog has a hidden apricot spectrum colour depending on the combination of c genes he has. You can't observe the colour and you can't always make an accurate prediction just from the parents' colours without knowing what other colours they produced. For example, a black dog might have had a light apricot mother and a black father. The father might have had the genetic configuration for white, and the mother might have had one copy of the c gene for apricot and another copy of the c gene for white, and the resulting dog could be genetically white under his black coat, despite an apricot ancestry. 

If you do mate a genetically white dog to an apricot, you will likely get light apricots and possibly creams or even whites, depending on the apricot's genetics. Using a black Ee dog will also likely result in half the puppies being black.


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