# I can't believe it! What's next?



## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

A conversation came up about finding an apt that allows pets.......well guess what folks? You can now go to a Doctor and get a ESA certification for your dog and then YOU CAN RENT ANYWHERE!!!!! Kinda like the people with 'headaches' and their pot cards huh? The company is now kinda franchized and has a website.....TheDOGtor.net..........this is not a good thing in my opinion, what's yours?


I feel sorry for the landlord that gets a tenant :aetsch: with an unhousebroken, moulding munching, howling fake 'ESA' dog!!!!!!..................


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

If this is some government mandated thing, I think it's TERRIBLE to force private business owners or private home owners to run_ their _own business according to the government whims. They should stay out of peoples' business!!!! It's unconscionable that a home owner has to allow something they don't want. They're the ones who own the house or apartment. They're the ones who pay taxes on it.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i don't think it's quite that easy. there's a difference between an internet company issuing certificates and the actual rights of landlords and communities. i think the fha only requires recognition of comfort/emotional support animals if there are so many housing units involved. then someone claiming an esa still has to substantiate the claim and there are reasonableness and behavioral standards that apply. it can be a sticky wicket for, say, a condo or community association, but it's not a slam dunk for anyone claiming esa status for his/her animal, either. 

we had someone like that at my condo association (which is pet friendly to begin with) - who had actually been a board member and then started running his dog of-fleash, claiming that it was necessary due to his condition. he was asked to provide evidence of the nexus between his condition and the accommodation (off-leash dog) he requested, meaning that his doctor had to explain why his condition required his dog to be off-leash. that explanation was never forthcoming and he lost re his attempt to be the only condo resident permitted to run his dog off-leash.

traditional service dogs have more credibility and face far fewer obstacles to acceptance, but the off-leash bit, aggressive behavior and doing damage can still weigh against their continuing to be allowed in rental units - even in hud controlled housing.

bottom line is that the internet company is going to end up taking in money from folks who don't know better. i call it a scam, but i guess some people call it a business and some call it a service.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

They actually have you see a Doctor for a 'quick exam'.........one of 'their' Doctors of course, just like getting a medical marijuana card! Yeah they even sight the laws and of course, how to get around it!!! They say a landlord has to rent to you even if their's is a no pets allowed building!!!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

yes, if the building is subject to fha guidelines, a valid esa animal is not deniable under the law. there are all kinds of battles still going on, however, about validity. and there are still reasonable accommodation and behavioral standards that have to be met. there are several contested cases in the state where i live and it has not been a slam dunk for the person claiming to need the dog (up till now it's all been dogs) as other than a pet. the airlines have to deal with this too, but they are permitted to use a much stricter standard, if i recall correctly, re proving the esa claim.


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## HerdingStdPoodle (Oct 17, 2012)

*Thank you Molly for your Post!*

Wow, Molly, this is an interesting Post!

Honestly, I would do Anything to get into Housing with my Spoo---so I can see the upside of this legislation. I can also see how your neighborhood could be drastically changed....if you had a lot of unloving tenants who were not interested in having house-trained pets and being involved in on-going training!

I own a small business and embrace your post. Thank you for making us all think! :hmmmm: HerdingStdPoodle


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I am so sorry to hear this ! There are all kinds of people on the internet selling all kinds of things for people who want to misrepresent their pets as SD's. As long as there are people who are willing to break the law there will people to sell them what they want.

Those of us in the Service Dog community are aware of the scams and the people who sell and use them. All that we can do is make sure that our partners are very well trained and stand out because of our professional behavior.

I just wonder how they sleep at night.

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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i don't think comfort or emotional support animals are required to be trained like service dogs do to claim that title. that's why a recent ruling has pointed toward case-by-case review when there are lawsuits involving these animals and their owners. the fha is much friendlier than the ada on this issue, and i do think it goes to the difference between a place of business and a place of residence in the view of the law. (maybe the old principle of "a man's home is his castle" at work behind the scenes.)

i, too, hate to see the scammers make it more difficult for those who really need their animals.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Wow it really is like a MJ card isn't it. That is crazy ridiculous! 


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

well the solution may be more widespread pet-friendly housing. of course, that's my bias speaking...


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

You are correct that ESAs do not need training. I also agree that more pet friendly housing would help a lot. As for the airlines they discriminate against some Handlers because of the nature of their disability....go figure! 

Here's hoping that the next generation will have fewer silly laws that contradict each other .

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## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

There is a site that will register your dog as a service dog. Saw it on the advertising section of my FB page a while ago. Went to it, answered questions, now my Terv is a "registered service dog" and for $49.95 I can get photo ID for him and a vest. Seriously? Their ad says that now your dog can fly with you and go anywhere you go. Such a rip-off and disservice to genuine service dogs, no matter what their service is.


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## IdahoLiving (Jun 20, 2013)

I always have to grit my teeth a little bit when I see the advertisements for the on-line "service dog" certifications. And the tag line is never about what your pet can be trained to do, what service they can provide. The tag line is always "BRING YOUR DOG ANYWHERE". 

In the long run this will make life difficult for the real service dogs. The general population will become jaded at the sight of rude, untrained "service dogs" in stores and restaurants, on planes and in hotel rooms and start making noises about limiting access for all service dogs, the fake ones and the real ones. 

There is no national standard that has to be meet regarding training and behavior benchmarks. In the eyes of the law, there is no difference between between the professionally trained service dog that helps pull the wheel chair and pick up dropped objects for the handler and the fearful, out of control Lab mix that was "certified" on-line with a handler who says the dog helps them stand from a seated position. 
Sheilah


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## janet6567 (Mar 11, 2014)

These online issuers of ""emotional support dog" certificates are such scams! I've seen several folks use them in restaurants to bring in their very ill-behaved dogs. I actually saw one dog hike his leg on the table. My friend and I just got up mid meal and left, telling the server we couldn't/wouldn't tolerate that. (We had questioned the server and then the manager when the lady with the dog came in about the dog's being there and his behavior: whining/barking). I'm a huge dog lover, but enough is enough and it's not the dogs' faults.. . it the insufferable people who think they don't have to follow rules!


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

janet6567 said:


> These online issuers of ""emotional support dog" certificates are such scams! I've seen several folks use them in restaurants to bring in their very ill-behaved dogs. I actually saw one dog hike his leg on the table. *My friend and I just got up mid meal and left, telling the server we couldn't/wouldn't tolerate that.* (We had questioned the server and then the manager when the lady with the dog came in about the dog's being there and his behavior: whining/barking). I'm a huge dog lover, but enough is enough and it's not the dogs' faults.. . it the insufferable people who think they don't have to follow rules!


Do you do the same when there are ill behaved children? 

That annoys me even more than the dogs to be honest... and you can't even do anything about it.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Wild Kitten said:


> Do you do the same when there are ill behaved children?
> 
> That annoys me even more than the dogs to be honest... and you can't even do anything about it.


shopkeepers, restauranteurs, etc., can do something about unruly kids. in the u.s., they just don't because americans can be idiots when it comes to their kids - as in, s/he's just a kid and moreover my kid and my kid can do no wrong! the general manager at my condo association told me he gets plenty of pushback from parents when their kids have to be spoken to by him or staff or the guard on duty. 

i think some of this same attitude carries over to people's dogs, too. so with dogs it's a matter of it's not the dog, it's the owner. and with kids, it's not the kids, it's the parents.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

It really is a sorry state of affairs, between people deliberately acting fraudulently and other just plain not knowing better, for one reason or another. A few years ago a well intending friend gave me what she thought was a wonderful gift, "service dog tags" so Chagall could go into every restaurant, store and on board planes with me. She meant well, and didn't know better than to pay some goof ball internet service $49.95 for the bogus "credentials," which her own SIL uses to take her dog everywhere. Sad, tough conundrum! Such a disservice to those who REALLY need and deserve to benefit from canine service/support dogs!


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## Samantha_ (Mar 11, 2014)

I have to say, that I got my Winnie certified as an ESA to aid me. I did use a website, the National Service Animal Registry. I 100% agree that people absolutely abuse this, however, in my case, I am not allowed to have animals in my apartment. I suffer from a panic disorder which cause me to have panic attacks frequently which are physically debilitating. I use my parents two Spoos as major resources to help aid and calm me. In the past year my disorder has gotten much worse and I had been longing to bring my own Spoo home, but my apartment wouldn't let me. My boyfriend and I spent months searching for a dog friendly place, but couldn't. Eventually, my therapist recommended getting her certified as an ESA. The certification involved some training and she is required more future training as well. But she has helped me out SO much just in the little time I've had her. So, while I absolutely agree that people abuse ESA's, there are some people out there, like me, who truly do benefit from it. I won't ever bring my Winn into a restaurant or on an airplane, but having her registered allows me to have her and for her to help me.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

samantha, under the current applicable law (the fair housing act), your apartment building cannot deny you a reasonable accommodation if you have a doctor's letter explaining what the dog does for you and why its presence is needed. there is no training required (though the accommodation does not include an ill-behaved dog). that's one reason i consider most of these online esa/service dog registration "services" a scam. the law is set up to enable people who have real needs to deal directly with landlords/rental agents, etc. 

if there's any issue with an accommodation, you can contact your local civil rights commission. that, too, does not require any paid intervention. 

if you want to be able to take your dog into public places, then under the ada your dog must be a trained service dog, but as has been pointed out earlier, an owner trained dog is still considered a trained service dog. the point is that you must be able to answer if asked what service the dog is trained to provide. again, the law is set up to give the business owner some control over who gets to enter his/her premises, but also to enable the owner of the dog to not have to use intermediaries if s/he doesn't need them.


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Samantha, If you are interested in training your Spoo to be your Service Dog visit Psychiatric Service Dog Partners at psychdogpartners.org. It is an online community supporting owner training of Service Dogs for people with Psychiatric Disabilities. 

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## grab (Jun 1, 2010)

ESAs are allowed in rentals, but do not have public access rights.

I do also think it is important for business owners to know their rights. They CAN ask if a dog is a service animal and CAN ask what tasks the dog performs. If a dog is behaving in a disruptive manner, they can be asked to leave.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Samantha, I am so glad your dog is helping you cope with your panic. I have no doubt your dog is well behaved and a credit to service dogs. Abusers make landlords and others leery of true service dogs. That is what makes me so upset with fakers with unschooled dogs and spoiled owners who don't need there dogs around they just want them. I am glad your dog is allowed to accompany you.


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

I have to say as I read this thread I kept nodding my head and agreeing with you all. There are so many people that abuse the privilege of having a SD or ESA. I see these little old ladies that take their small snippy dogs everywhere by throwing a cape or vest on them. It is sad because it does make it very difficult for people who depend on their dog. I have said it on other post, but I will say it again - I am an insulin resistant brittle diabetic. My BG can spike or drop at any point, with no patterns. Just because I eat does not mean my sugars will increase. Remington has been amazing at detecting and alerting. When he did this automatically we did some intensive training with a SD trainer out of Dallas Texas. I took him into a restaurant with my mother and I when I was visiting her in Austin, and got a little bit of hassle from the manager, but was allowed in and we were seated. Half way through the meal she came over and asked if we had taken "the dog" to the car, and I said no he is under the table where he needs to be. She pulled up a chair and started to tell us about people who brought their dog in and had it on the booth seats, or it would beg off the table and what not. We talked about training and what Remington does for me and why I depend on him so much. It was very enlightening to see it from the perspective of a restaurant manager. Needless to say we eat there very often and they are great about Remington now, and even make sure the floor is spotless so he won't get dirty.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i suspect it was also very enlightening for the manager to realize that people's lives can depend on the presence of a service dog. good on both of you for having the dialogue and raising the level of consciousness of the issues involved from both perspectives.


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

A lot of thoughts have gone through my mind while reading this thread. I have seen a service dog with it's owner a few months ago after my drs. visit. The dog was perfect. He sat quietly while we conversed for a few minutes about the breed and his training. He didn't make a sound, didn't come to me, and I respected him while he was working.

A lot of people - not just the younger generation in their 20's (not ALL of them - just the ones that are talked about lol) have the "entitlement" mindset. I breath so I am entitled to blah blah blah! Fill it in; a great job making lots of money with no education, have a thought so it must be shared no matter how rude or obnoxious, I have a child so I can bring it anywhere no matter how disruptive to others, I have a dog so I am entitled to bring it wherever I go!!

About housing - Yes there federal laws, but each individual state has their own. I have been working towards obtaining rental properties as a means to retire (or at least be able to live without having to work till I die!!), and have found out each states laws for housing can vary quite a bit. I don't know particularly about service animals, but as far as how a property gets rented and by whom, foreclosure laws, and eviction processes. My real estate investor mentors have told me California is renter friendly, whereas here in Texas it is landlord friendly and bank friendly. So I would assume there are differences when it comes to service animals.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

both state and federal law come into play. but in general, federal law will trump state law on issues such as reasonable accommodation, so it's important to be knowledgeable about both if one is a landlord.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

MollyMuiMa said:


> I feel sorry for the landlord that gets a tenant :aetsch: with an unhousebroken, moulding munching, howling fake 'ESA' dog!!!!!!..................


On the occasions when we rent, we often get turned away because we have had anywhere from 2-7 dogs! 
Now that I have human kids, I ask, jokingly, if they want a "kids" deposit as well, because they are far more destructive than my dog ever were LOL.
My house in MD that we rented has more kid pee than dog pee on the carpet, from all the kid potty training LOL (yes we had the carpet cleaned when we left and it was lovelier than when we moved in.) 




As far as the recent run of fake service dogs, that DOES make me mad! There was a lady in Walmart the other day with a Rottweiler wearing a "service dog" vest and a MUZZLE, and it was lunging at people (me and my kids included). Man, I let that lady have it! I think she was shocked that I figured out that it was not a service dog. NO service dog needs a muzzle and lunges at people. No way!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Shamrockmommy said:


> On the occasions when we rent, we often get turned away because we have had anywhere from 2-7 dogs!
> Now that I have human kids, I ask, jokingly, if they want a "kids" deposit as well, because they are far more destructive than my dog ever were LOL.
> My house in MD that we rented has more kid pee than dog pee on the carpet, from all the kid potty training LOL (yes we had the carpet cleaned when we left and it was lovelier than when we moved in.)
> 
> ...


I gotta agree with ya about the kids!!! Although I'm a neat nik I've had girl friends that were horrible about watching their kids destroy a house! I remember one memorable incident when a friends 8 year old daughter decided she wanted to paint her room...............while Mom napped ..... blue paint everywhere, carpet, furniture, bedding, ruined!!!! 

Here in San Diego, it is pretty dog friendly til you go to rent a house or apt....unfortunately the ad for the fake documentation is now on craigslist with the big "If you want to rent and they won't allow pets...." I can absolutely see people manipulating the federal laws here, which will only put a bad taste in many landlords mouths with the damages an untrained, unhousebroken, dog (or cat) can do to floors and carpeting and yards. 
Also the damage to the reputations of REAL service animals that this can cause is HUGE!!!! Prospective landlords can always find a different excuse not to rent to someone and rentals to people with trained service animals will find it more and more difficult to find housing! I only hope this dilemma finds a solution!!!!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i agree, molly, but it's a chance every landlord takes, and adults only are no guarantee that they will be good tenants. one of my neighbors rented to a family and they left without notice. the unit was a wreck - it was so bad that the cleaners told the owner the refrigerator could not be cleaned! the family included a man, wife, son and handicapped grandmother. they were total slobs, no other word for it, and i doubt anyone could blame the son alone, who was about twelve.

federal law can be changed. there was quite a stir when the ada was changed to exclude all but dogs and, i think, miniature ponies. there were people with monkeys and birds, pigs, etc., on whom the doors were closed. i feel for those who had legitimate assistance animals, but i also understand the need to balance their needs against those of businesses and the public in general. 

over the coming years, as people try to get around laws, i think we will see a greater emphasis on a part of the law that has not come into great play - the idea that an accommodation does not mean greater rights/access for the disabled than for those who are not disabled; it is meant to equalize access. there are mechanisms in place now for dealing with such issues. as i've said before, my condo association has had to use them and in the two cases where, really, the claimants tried to extort money from the aoao, they lost. the problem is that it can be a costly process for those defending against such a claim. but it can be done with proper implementation of the procedures set out in the law. if that doesn't work, it will be a slow process, but i'm pretty sure the law will change again.


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

I think that to some degree there are questions that should and can be asked. I always educate people on the law, but then I will go into detail about my specific situation and why Remington is with me. I believe the only two questions that can be asked when taking the dog into a store or public place are 1. are you disabled, 2. is this animal working. It is absolutely illegal to ask about the disability or the specifics. When we were in TN, we went to a K-Mart (had no clue those were still around), and the manager grilled me. I finally looked at him and asked if he was denying me access, as I would happily accommodate him by leaving but would follow up by placing a complaint. He said no, but followed us around the whole store. It was very stressful for me, Remington seemed not to notice, and alerted to a drop in my BG. 

While I understand that there are people that take advantage, and it frustrates me part of me wonders if there is something wrong with them to want to have a disability that the SD has to mitigate. I would rather be healthy and leave Remington at home than have to worry about is my BG going to drop.


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

I thought I would add that the original message is also being passed around on Twitter now....


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

sweetheartsrodeo said:


> I think that to some degree there are questions that should and can be asked. I always educate people on the law, but then I will go into detail about my specific situation and why Remington is with me. I believe the only two questions that can be asked when taking the dog into a store or public place are 1. are you disabled, 2. is this animal working. It is absolutely illegal to ask about the disability or the specifics. When we were in TN, we went to a K-Mart (had no clue those were still around), and the manager grilled me. I finally looked at him and asked if he was denying me access, as I would happily accommodate him by leaving but would follow up by placing a complaint. He said no, but followed us around the whole store. It was very stressful for me, Remington seemed not to notice, and alerted to a drop in my BG.
> 
> While I understand that there are people that take advantage, and it frustrates me part of me wonders if there is something wrong with them to want to have a disability that the SD has to mitigate. I would rather be healthy and leave Remington at home than have to worry about is my BG going to drop.



actually, the questions that can be asked are a bit different. here's a link to the doj's guidance: Revised ADA Requirements: Service Animals

as for the store manager following you around, i think i would have complained to the civil rights commission. that would have qualified as unequal treatment under the ada guidelines.


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