# Astro was fired from doggy daycare! I need some insight PLEASE. :(



## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

I can't offer any advice but we have several great people on here who can. You sound like a super Mom and let's not forget that astro is still a baby. The poodle owner should be a great resource for you and she may be able to direct you to a different trainer. Hang in there Mom. Hugs to you and Astro!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Before you take this daycare person's word to heart visit the Poodle expert. He sounds like a normal, exuberant Poodle perhaps amped by so many strange dogs in close quarters. If he were fighting or vicious, I would be worried. It sounds like they want docile, quiet dogs for their own convenience.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

He sounds to me like a normal pup, finding the world a bit overwhelming as he hits a fearful phase. I would continue to look for a genuinely positive trainer, someone who you like and who likes both you and Astro, and meanwhile keep working on frustration control exercises and confidence building, staying away from the overly stressful environment of daycare and trying to find a few well-socialised dogs for playdates instead. I don't think I would let anyone rush me into a decision on neutering, especially for what sounds from your post like nothing worse than rather nervous silly puppy behaviour! If the experienced poodle owner thinks he needs extra help, I would be looking for advice from a qualified behaviourist - he is still very young and there is plenty of time to sort out any issues he may have.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I can't offer advice on how to curb that behavior, but I'm not sure it needs to be curbed. He's very young. When Max, who is a poodle mix, was younger he had a play style that was over the top and too much for a lot of dogs. That was a huge consideration when I adopted Lily, and I didn't adopt several other dogs because of this. Their personalities would not have been a match. Lily had been in foster care for a few weeks and when I asked about her energy level and explained Max's play style, the foster mom just laughed and said that Lily had no problem keeping up with her standard poodle and it would be good for Lily to be with an energetic dog. 

Max is 5 now, and grew up to be this calm, gentlemanly type dog who is happy to sit on the couch most of the day. He also learned somewhere around three to adjust his play style to the dog he was playing with. He is a very intuitive little guy. Lily hasn't calmed down at all though, and she's probably about 6. Agility is her thing- she loves it and it gets her energy out. Maybe that would be a good outlet for your pup? When you mentioned the nervousness he has, I also thought some type of confidence building activities would be good. Agility is good for this. Lily also needed that.

Although Max is very calm now, when Max and Lily do play, it still is that wild crazy style- it's just who they are, it's part of their personalities. They sound like a pack of wolves- up on their hind legs, barking crazy at each other( similar to what you described)- but they love it. It has never escalated to a fight, it's just how they play. Misty, my little havanese, looks on from the sidelines and I imagine she's thinking "I just don't get you two!"


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Ok so I haven't had any coffee yet, so I am probably going to miss some of the points I would like to offer, but first and foremost, you have done a great job with Astro. He has not been an easy puppy and for an inexperienced owner has certainly offered big challenges.

Lily as a puppy was a lot like Astro, very hard to find her off switch, very frustrating to me at times. We had a really rough go of it for over a year and look at where we are now. She is the light of my life and my partner in sports and tons of fun to be with. She helps me train reactive dogs by being a great neutral dog. There is a light at the end of your tunnel.

Why have you taken him to daycare? It doesn't sound like a great setting for him. Around here the big chain stores have day cares that I think are just pitiful and awful. The spaces are small with concrete floors and no natural light. There are more dogs than I think is advisable with only one person supervising. The supervisor often looks like they aren't out of high school, so what kind of experience can most of those kids have? If this trainer doesn't like Astro then why give her a penny of your money, a minute of your time or subject Astro to even ten seconds of her disdain for him?

The trainer sounds inexperienced. I think it is a lie to say that any dog is reliably able to learn something after being told once (if that's what she meant) but every dog should respond after one command if they are being told to do something they already understand. I have a person who comes to my Friday classes who has had at least one OTCh golden and I knew that recent champion. He always responded after the first order, but she never did anything just once. I wouldn't put any import onto what she said other than to not bring Astro back. I think she did you a favor.

Go to the poodle person and listen to what he says. He will have much better insight about Astro from watching him in a small manageable group. He also will understand Astro's poodley drives better than the other person.

I think I've told this story elsewhere, but when I first was able to start taking Lily further out through my neighborhood there was a house that she hated to walk past. There was a very bad energy GSD that lived there with clueless owners who thought it was a good social idea to let their dog out their front door off leash to play with Peeves and Lily on leash in the street. It was horrible, so I stopped passing their street if I just had Peeves or both dogs for a while. Since the people had no interest in Lily they never came out if I just had her. So if it was just me and her I would go down that part of the street. She clearly did not want to walk past this house with the horrible barking dog that had knocked her over in the street. She would dig in her heels and try to back out of her collar. I made her keep moving with lots of cheer leading and she now confidently passes that house and all the others with barkers confidently enough that usually the barking stops because she doesn't respond in any way other than to ignore it. You can get Astro to go anywhere with you as long as he totally trusts you to keep him safe.

If you think you want to try a calming remedy as a way to help him maintain focus under challenging conditions (lots of distractions, etc.) try a DAP collar and/or rescue remedy.

Here's the last thing I will say for now. Clearly you are anxious about this. Astro is reading that. The day care trainer is wrong about him not being sensitive. I think he is showing himself to be very sensitive and probably some of his nervousness is traveling down the leash from you. I was very anxious about how nutty and difficult Lily was. Finally one day I pulled in my driveway, thought with trepidation about what I was going to be greeted by and went for a walk instead of going in the house. I worked to make myself honestly, deeply relaxed and when I walked through the door in that calm state I was greeted by a happy to see me, but not crazy tearing my jacket sleeves Lily. It was like a miracle. So make sure you try to stay internally calm and avoid sending mixed messages to your boy.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I think a lot of dogs do not do well in a doggie day care setting. It really is an uncontrolled situation no matter how good the intentions of the owners. I know that my 8 month mpoo would not do well in that situation, not because he does not have an off switch, but he is a very competitive dog and would not relax around those other dogs. But Dakota does well in a group training situation and I think he will make a good performance dog if I can find a sport I can keep up with him. Energetic dogs need an outlet for that energy. Doggie day care is often not the answer.

I hope you find a good group class that helps you learn to help Astro. Let us know how your meeting with the poodle trainer goes.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

One other thing I just thought of. I know some people will disagree with me but dogs don't need dog friends and when in homes with people they trust those people are sufficient to meet their social needs. My dogs have dog friends because they live with other dogs. Those are their friends, the dogs in their family (Lily, Peeves, Javelin and Wolfie (who I co-own with my mom and who will live with us if something happens that she can't care for him)).

That doesn't mean they don't interact with other dogs. They do. All of them see dogs in our neighborhood. They all see other dogs at my obedience club and the older ones have both been to many shows.


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## ChantersMom (Aug 20, 2012)

I think you just described my spoo, Chanter!


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## Charlygrl2 (Mar 30, 2014)

I am by no means an expert I've only had three dogs all three Spoos
My first Magic was as the naïve trainer describes , tell him something once, Potty trained to 9 weeks never, chewed anything sweet gentle dog never caused any problems. My friends always teased me that he was not a real dog. 
5 years later along comes Magic's son Trick who was like two-year-old on sugar he was all over the place ,got into everything very hyper, he was exhausting. 
And then there's my baby Merlin he's a year and a half and his personality stubborn and sassy. Each of them totally different personalities, all grew or in Merlins case growing into beautiful loving dogs.
Of the three of them the most loving and sweetest is Trick the one that started out crazy, he is also very sensitive, gets his feelings hurt very easily, flinches at noises and has to be love and hugged the most. Trick is fine in social situations now we go to daycare and dog parks and he has a good time ,when he was a puppy he would get over excited and amped up , so crazed if there was too much noise too many things going on just couldn't get focused and calm down. Trick also could not handle being in a crate, it was horrible if you put him in one he howled and barked and cried I asked the vet about it they said he had barrier anxiety made him feel like he was trapped. So I stopped trying to using a crate Instead I put a gate in front of the bathroom and he was fine, would get in bed and go to sleep .
One thing that helped him is the ball, he loves to catch the ball, when he gets over excited I tell him to grab a ball and he'll go grab a ball out for the ball form for five times and he calms down. 
Of course he is obsessed with the ball now and at 12 years old I have to make him take breaks or he would hurt himself catching the ball. 
I would not trade him for anything he's a very special boy. 
Astro disposition / personality sounds so much like Tricks when he was a baby I bet he too will grow into a beautiful loving boy.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I just want to agree with everyone else....Astro is still a pup and you are doing a very good job as a first time doggy mom! I hope the poodle mom will give you much better insight, but in the meantime.......Keep Calm & Carry On!


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## knittingmolly (Jun 13, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> Why have you taken him to daycare? It doesn't sound like a great setting for him. Around here the big chain stores have day cares that I think are just pitiful and awful. The spaces are small with concrete floors and no natural light. There are more dogs than I think is advisable with only one person supervising. The supervisor often looks like they aren't out of high school, so what kind of experience can most of those kids have? If this trainer doesn't like Astro then why give her a penny of your money, a minute of your time or subject Astro to even ten seconds of her disdain for him?
> 
> The trainer sounds inexperienced. I think it is a lie to say that any dog is reliably able to learn something after being told once (if that's what she meant) but every dog should respond after one command if they are being told to do something they already understand. I have a person who comes to my Friday classes who has had at least one OTCh golden and I knew that recent champion. He always responded after the first order, but she never did anything just once. I wouldn't put any import onto what she said other than to not bring Astro back. I think she did you a favor.
> 
> Go to the poodle person and listen to what he says. He will have much better insight about Astro from watching him in a small manageable group. He also will understand Astro's poodley drives better than the other person.


Your questions are so good. And your advice is wise and reassuring. Thank you!

From my current perspective, I can see that taking him to daycare was a bad idea and that he might never be a daycare doggie. But hindsight is 20/20 and one of my main reasons for taking him there was that I saw it as a way to get him much-needed exercise and I also hoped that it would be fun for him to play with other dogs. Also, i was following advice from the inexperienced trainer that all dogs benefit from this sort of setting with other dogs. We won't be going back. 

Poor Astro has to suffer through as I slowly learn about dogs and make mistakes. Thank goodness dogs have such a forgiving nature. I appreciate your advice that I remain as calm and reassuring and confident as possible myself--I'm sure you're right that he's picking up on all my energy.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

if the problem is that you are looking to give astro and your family some time off from each other, then it might be worth looking for another doggy daycare. not all of them consist of dogs in cramped rooms. for a short time i took my aloof guy to a doggy daycare in a strip mall. it was in a large space meant for a retail store. the owner was a groomer and had her service in the same area. there were six foot high fences and gates so that dogs could be separated if necessary. the "monitor" was an older woman with a lot of experience with dogs. there was a dog more aloof than mine that spent his time atop a table. he did not want to be with the other dogs, though he was not stressed being at the shop. i was told that my guy spent more time hanging around the groomers than the dogs, though one day i arrived and the grooming crew was smiling more than usual and told me he had played hard. i never saw this, because as soon as he would see me, he was ready to go home.

only one dog was "fired." he was an overactive jack russell. pretty sure the only reason they said he wasn't allowed back is that time outs were impossible unless they crated him - he would climb over the six foot fence if left in one of the gated off areas. what i'm getting at is that there are places and daycares where not every dog is expected to be the same. there is room for all kinds of personalities, though not vicious ones. maybe a little more checking around and you can find some place else.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

patk that does sound like a much better doggy day care than any of the ones we have around here. It could be a good outlet for Astro if that time with him away to get things done time is part of what knittingmolly is looking for.

This place in Indianapolis is near some of the places we frequent when we go for the 500 each year. It looks fabulous. I haven't been in, but have the feeling that if I was going to quit my day job to do something radical and dog related I would want a place like this. Dog Daycare, Full and Half Day | Indianapolis | Barkefellers

I like that they have a questionnaire for prospective dogs and that they evaluate the dogs so they end up placed with well matched play mates. There are good places if you di hard enough for them.

knittingmolly I am sure that before long you and Astro will have all this behind you. You have shown yourself to be very diligent in wanting to do right by Astro. PM me if you ever want to talk more about any issues you have concerns with.


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## knittingmolly (Jun 13, 2014)

Thank you ALL so much for telling me I'm doing a good job with little Astro. I'm not sure if you're right about that and I am concerned that my lack of experience and understanding is causing me to constantly miss opportunities to help Astro become a really great dog. However, it is true that hearing you cheer me on really helps me gather the courage to move forward with some optimism.

It's also true that despite all the negative feelings I had after leaving the daycare and her words about Astro not being a REAL poodle echoing in my head :sad:, I just look at his sweet face and his big eager-to-please, sensitive eyes and I immediately know that I already love this dog and, whoever he is, we are glad to have him. 

I have limited time to devote to training Astro, which adds to the challenges, but I am hopeful that this new trainer will give me some real insight and some good concrete steps to take that will help Astro and I to build a good foundation.


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## knittingmolly (Jun 13, 2014)

patk said:


> if the problem is that you are looking to give astro and your family some time off from each other, then it might be worth looking for another doggy daycare. not all of them consist of dogs in cramped rooms. for a short time i took my aloof guy to a doggy daycare in a strip mall. it was in a large space meant for a retail store. the owner was a groomer and had her service in the same area. there were six foot high fences and gates so that dogs could be separated if necessary. the "monitor" was an older woman with a lot of experience with dogs. there was a dog more aloof than mine that spent his time atop a table. he did not want to be with the other dogs, though he was not stressed being at the shop. i was told that my guy spent more time hanging around the groomers than the dogs, though one day i arrived and the grooming crew was smiling more than usual and told me he had played hard. i never saw this, because as soon as he would see me, he was ready to go home.
> 
> only one dog was "fired." he was an overactive jack russell. pretty sure the only reason they said he wasn't allowed back is that time outs were impossible unless they crated him - he would climb over the six foot fence if left in one of the gated off areas. what i'm getting at is that there are places and daycares where not every dog is expected to be the same. there is room for all kinds of personalities, though not vicious ones. maybe a little more checking around and you can find some place else.


Thank you for bringing this up, patk. Actually Astro visited another daycare/kennel, when we were preparing to take a trip to Boulder and we thought he'd be having a temporary stay there. It's interesting because Astro was not super hyper at that place and they spent a full day with him, evaluating who his best playmates were. They actually had him alone in an enclosure with two evaluators and they slowly let in a dog at a time to see how he'd interact. They had video monitors in the lobby so I could watch the whole process as it unfolded. They told me that he did best with the older dogs (and was more amped up with the puppies). They also said that he did great while he was there--a little nervous at first--but he had fun and they had no complaints about his behavior with the other dogs. They told me that the next time he came, they would intentionally place him in a play area with calmer adult dogs. 

We would consider doing it again, but only if we think that Astro might actually enjoy his time there and look forward to going. It IS a great way to wear him out (which is tricky for me to pull off some days, since I'm SO busy) and I see how much he enjoys playing with other dogs under ideal circumstances. In the meantime, we'll set up some park and backyard dates with friends' dogs.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

I don't have much time right now, but I couldn't resist popping in to say that in my opinion Standard Poodles are so variable in temperament that it's very difficult to say that one isn't a "typical" spoo. In my area there are five spoos active in Agility, and they are very different. One is much like what your daycare trainer would consider a "typical" spoo (and maybe the kind of spoo you wanted): laid back, friendly. Two are pretty active but friendly. Two are pretty aloof and intense. (Sugarfoot is one of those.)

Not all dogs are cut out for daycare, and I'm with lily that not all dogs need doggy friends. Sugarfoot does not like other dogs. He'll tolerate them now much better than he used to, but the only ones he "gets along with" are our other dogs, and he has to be separated from *them* sometimes.

Also agree with lily that poodles do seem to be pretty sensitve to their owners, and he probably feeds off your uncertainty at times. But you're doing fine, you're learning about each other, and he's still so young!

As for neutering, I held off as long as I could for maturity hormones to get through his system, but yes, Sugarfoot did have really, really obnoxious male behavior, and he was neutered at about 18 months, and it did help a lot.

Hope this (and the words of our other wise posters here!) helps. He sounds like a great dog--he's just young.

--Q


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i sent my dog to doggy day care because at the time he was an only dog and not really extroverted. he had one buddy where we lived and could not care less about any other dog or person. not that i thought that was awful, but i knew he needed to be more comfortable in a larger crowd of dogs.

actually, a good doggy daycare is better than taking your dog to the park for starters. as you experienced, they are more careful about matching dogs in size, temperament, etc. when i think about it, my dog later came to hate jack russells - but that was not as a result of being in the same daycare as the one i mentioned. it happened years later - and was a result of going to a park where he was jumped on all the time by one in particular. he finally defended himself and ever after would yell at any jack russell he saw to keep away or else!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

My feeling is that daycares (at least the numerous ones around here that I have observed) are a recipe for destroying a dog - I think that you should be thrilled that he got ousted before the bad behavior got transferred to home!
Look for other opportunities for him to play - Trainer supervised play groups, or a nice Dog Park if you are committed to keeping an eagle eye on him, are not afraid to skip going in, or leave if the wrong dogs are there, or perhaps incur the wrath of inexperienced dog owners who object when you intervene in a bad interaction.
In over a year of regularly taking Timi to the dog park, knock wood, I can say that she has never had a bad experience because of my close supervision, constantly evaluating and re-evaluating the behavior of the other dogs.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Tiny Poodles, isn't it amazing how awful NY metro area dog day care places are? I can only think that it is partly because rents are high and having enough space to make separate groups and have out door space etc. must be cost prohibitive.

And Quossum you are so right that poodles are as diverse in their personalities as people. Lily and Javelin are clearly very different dogs even though Javelin is only 15 weeks old.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I agree with doggy daycare not being a necessity. i personnally don't see any purpose in this, other than having your dog to stay somewhere because you're going away.

Your dog is way more benefiting all the interaction you can have with him than being in a strange environment with strange dogs. Because that's what it is. For an anxious dog, it's worse, because adjusting to the new environment is just not possible considering the time frame and change of dogs / people.

I also don't think neutering has anything to do with this. These " trainers " look very unexperienced and I would never leave them any dog of mine. Just forget anything they told you and go your way.

As for his fear of busy streets and people, now is the time to make him face it more, while he's young and adaptable. Don't let him get to a panic state, but make him face it. He'll get better with time and you won't even remember this soon !


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Tiny Poodles, isn't it amazing how awful NY metro area dog day care places are? I can only think that it is partly because rents are high and having enough space to make separate groups and have out door space etc. must be cost prohibitive.
> 
> And Quossum you are so right that poodles are as diverse in their personalities as people. Lily and Javelin are clearly very different dogs even though Javelin is only 15 weeks old.



Yes, I have truly been horrified at every one that I have seen - if I was every forced to board Timi at such a place, I would insit that she be caged at all times, and would pay extra to have a human take her out for 1:1 play five Times a day.
On the other hand, Timi has been having the time of her life at the Dog Park with me making sure that every moment is safe and fun! I wish that for the winter there was a daycare that would let me bring her in for Mom supervised play!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I use Fetch pet sitters to help me take care of the dogs when I can't be home. They offer a supervised play group but do not allow owners to be present. I do not feel comfortable with that. I would want to watch. Too bad because the groups are small. Oh, well. Taking group classes and finding a walking poodle buddy has been helpful.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Standard Poodle puppies can be a handful. For a person new to dogs it would not be a preferred breed. However with help from here, from your breeder and from a poodle person? And if you can devote the time, when your puppy is 2-3 y/o you will have an asset rather than a bombshell.
My Grace was a hyperactive land-shark with too little human socialization. She was head shy and treated me like another puppy. Bit my ears, body-slammed me and needed 24/7 play. Now she is a polite, calm, well trained and much loved by all she meets, poodle person.
Eric


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## 24953 (Oct 27, 2013)

knittingmolly said:


> Hello All,


He is only 5 months, some puppies are pretty bad until they grow up, don't take it to heart.
He sounds like our male standard, 8 months old, in-tact, does/did a load of the things you list to be honest. 
IMO fixing him will not work - not all in-tact dogs misbehave, and he's 5 months, he's barely even in-tact! It may well calm him down for a few days after while he is sore though lol:act-up:
Maybe try a no grain food, some high energy dogs cant tolerate all the carbs, plenty of protein and a bit of veg, have seen this recommended for ex-working dogs/working breeds/high energy dogs, but he may not need this.
He may just be being a puppy, some dogs take ages to mature, we had a border collie who was 3 before she calmed down (was spayed) and she was a dominant head strong type but with persistence and consistency was an incredibly well behaved adult dog, nothing like her days of ripping up the kitchen floor as puppy.
He might be really excited by having other dogs to play with - he may be bright and inquisitive, our male pup is like this - the others lie down and he is barking at them to play, annoying them, they ignore him, he stops eventually but we are sticking are noses in saying leave them alone etc, if they played all day, he'd stay at it all day, he demands that he be played with, even tries it with us. 
So he isn't unlike any other poodle because he's like ours. And at 8 months, with time and training, he has calmed down, an awful lot since 5 months old, when he would have done a lot of what you listed, but it is a work in progress he isn't perfect yet. 
Don't know about calming chews, but got a spray for anxiousness for travelling - all natural just essential oils in it, worked for the anxious and vomity car trips, straight away, no need to use it now, once he didn't get sick a few trips he didn't need it.
I think maybe a break from the day care, maybe a different day care if possible, maybe a home dog sitter who has less dogs and more time for him, and can do plenty of training him into their environment. He might just need a lot of mental stimulation to wear him out, don't give up on him he could turn out to be an unbelievable dog. 
Kids do make dogs excited, the kids can't help it, you can't tell them not to play, but they should have down time and include the puppy in this, make him relax with them. This has been a problem for a relative of mine, she can't get a trainer who can train the dog but unfortunately the trainer can't tell her that the kids are just as active as the dog so the dog thinks this is how the little pack members behave. Its like asking a child not to join in going nuts with other kids in their own back yard. Nervousness can just be not knowing his place 100%, we've had a lot of success with this by just teaching them to guard the house from a window, it give them a job and a place. Bring him somewhere very busy and make him sit with you there, and he'll get used to it in time and not take as much notice of new/strange things/people, its his age too. I don't know if you have other dogs at home but sometimes dogs really crave other dogs company, others really don't care. He might like some fun back garden agility, the kids should be able to help with this, they can also make up games hiding treats etc, brain training treat toys/games are very good, he might just need a bit of mental stimulation, teach him plenty of tricks (another thing the kids can join in on), it gets them to listen to you and obey in general.

All of that behavior I have seen before - stay in control the pack and he will get in line too, keep level try not to let it upset you, he will pick up on it, he is so little yet, don't give up or get overwhelmed, I hope your trainer is good and really helps you.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

MiniPoo I think what happens when owners hover over a play group is that the dogs that aren't super confident just fixate on their owners if they can see them rather than engaging with the group. At the puppy play I've been taking Javelin too I notice that if he makes eye contact with me he disengages totally from the group. Although he is very confident around people and adult dogs he is having a bit of a bumpy road trying to figure out other puppies. Now that I trust the trainer to supervise well I walk away for bits of time when I see that he is really playing.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

(I wrote this yesterday but my power went out all day and night...very windy here yesterday)

I think the person at the doggie daycare doesn't know what she's talking about, A. 

Your puppy sounds like a perfectly normal puppy. B. There's nothing wrong with him. He's only 5 months old!!! Poodles usually DO have loads of energy. He just doesn't have anyone at the daycare helping him learn how to use it. 

Most all my puppies have been very exuberant and full of energy (you should have seen my Dobe AND one of my Poodles!) except my Lab. She was more the calm type. Oh, and my Chihuahuas. They were pretty laid back. My GSDs...wild lunatics as puppies. Anyhow, your puppy wants to play, is still in the learning stage of how to deal with other dogs, which he can learn in a smaller setting...fewer dogs, like one at first. Anyhow, your puppy will likely be very puppyish until he's 2 or 3 years old...maybe not _this _puppyish but still... they take time to mature, just like human babies don't suddenly become mature when they're toddlers or 5 year olds. It's a process.

How much obedience work do you do with him? Lots of fun POSITIVE reinforcement training does wonders in a global way toward focus and behavior. Plenty of exercise, physical and mental is always good for behavior. And plenty of controlled socialization. One on one with a friend's dog or a small class when he's ready with a good, reputable PR trainer. I'd skip the day care for now. It wouldn't be good if that person who's supervising him all day has these kinds of unrealistic expectations of a 5 month old pup. Good luck. He'll grow up all too soon.

Oh, and my two year olds have very nice behavior and they’re not neutered. Most of those behaviors they use to think had something to do with being intact, as it turns out, are more prevalent in neutered dogs! So, it’s mostly a training thing, not a neutering/intact thing. I would definitely not rush into neutering your puppy this early. There are loads of health reasons why to keep them intact until full grown. With mine, I don’t have any reason to neuter them so far, so I’m just leaving them as is. Maybe when they’re older, I think there is one or two types of prostate problems (Not cancer) that may be less likely when neutered, but it’s something that turns up usually later in life. But you might want to research that more for yourself. Once it’s done, it’s done.

Anyhow, enjoy your puppy and don't take anything...his puppy shenanigans he does too seriously. He'll be fine.


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## knittingmolly (Jun 13, 2014)

I think I've been somewhat misunderstood or perhaps I described Astro inaccurately. My characterization of Astro was really not that of a SUPER HIGH ENERGY dog. He's not a dog that needs a tremendous amount of stimulation and he's not USUALLY overly hyper. 

What I was attempting to describe was that WHEN he's visiting this particular doggie daycare and also when he's in other hyper-stimulating environments (like, for example, the farmers market this past weekend) he seems to have trouble coping. His reaction in CERTAIN circumstances is hyper aroused, jumpy, barking with excitement, and fairly obnoxious. Perhaps what I'm describing is simply as yet unsocialized puppy behavior!

At home, however, Astro is really very mellow. He sleeps a lot. Is getting more and more responsive to training and focuses calmly while we're training. He is eager to please and listens to my commands attentively. He invites me to play very politely, by getting a toy and then standing in front of me and waiting patiently. He has also calmed down significantly around my kids and just bumps them gently with his nose if he wants their attention. He does bark some at home, occasionally in an obnoxious way at the neighbor's dog, but it isn't incessant and if i engage him elsewhere, he'll stop quickly.

Yesterday, I visited the trainer I mentioned earlier and the visit was very interesting. Astro played first with her grown standard and then with her three french bulldogs. I was so glad to see that he played very appropriately with all the dogs. He was curious about them and friendly but also backed down to assertive warnings from the male bulldog. Even though that dog was kind of pushy and bullied Astro a bit, Astro never took it personally or seemed nervous. He just backed away from the bulldog and cheerfully moved on to other interactions. He never barked at the other dogs, even once. Also, after a long play session, he settled on the floor and napped--something they said he NEVER did at daycare. Overall, I was so happy and reassured to see how he handled the situation.

The trainer had a few really helpful insights. Over the phone, I had described Astro's energy at doggie daycare as "nervous" or "anxious," but I admitted that I was really GUESSING with those words and I couldn't tell why he was SO hyper and unable to calm down. Obviously, she didn't get to see any of that hyper, amped up energy exhibited but she did observe what she described as some social awkwardness. She thinks that Astro is super excited to play with other dogs but when he's really aroused, he doesn't quite have the social skills to handle himself well. She thinks that some kind of controlled playtime situation (a GOOD daycare, a small dog park, playtime with a friend's dog) would be an important and helpful experience for him.

We also talked about how much Astro is picking up on my energy. That's when I realized that I have been especially tense at every obedience class MYSELF. And the obedience classes are at the same location as the doggie daycare, so Astro has probably been getting the message from me that THIS PLACE IS NOT SAFE…WE ARE TENSE WHEN WE COME HERE!

Unfortunately, the visit with the trainer also had an unpleasant quality. She let me know that she is a poodle "purist" and expressed that she considers parti poodles to be a bastardization of poodle breeding and that most of the difficulties I'm having are probably due to the bad breeding of my dog. :crazy: She pointed specifically to how tactile Astro is (he tends to paw other dogs gently when he interacts with them) and to the fact that he chooses to bark when he's overly aroused. She said that these two behaviors were never exhibited in poodles she bred and not in poodles in general (here we go again with the assertion that all poodles are the same…but maybe she has a point--what do i know!?). 

She seemed to think that it was likely that my breeder ("like so many other Parti breeders") was focused on appearance and paid little to no attention to breeding for good temperament. I didn't feel overly inclined to defend my breeder to this person, but anyhow, it was an oddly frank conversation that made me want to scream things like, "DON'T YOU SEE HOW INCREDIBLY ADORABLE AND WELL-ADJUSTED MY DOG IS?!?"

I realize that there are others who share this opinion about Partis and being new to the pure bred dog world, during my search, I chose not to pay very much attention to these biases and instead to choose a breeder who came highly recommend by others…

Despite her tactlessness, I found the visit to be helpful and I left feeling much better about my little dog.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

unbelievable is all i can say.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Hmmmmmmm... Well, at least you got some helpful advice out of the visit, and an insight into how your own state of mind affects Astro. I will never forget dashing to the vets with Sophy, concerned that she was going into shock after a wasp sting. I thought I was being remarkably calm in the circumstances (I wasn't actually having hysterics, after all!) - Sophy was miserable, trembling, shaking, tail tucked in, and completely and utterly unlike herself. Within seconds of the vet nurse taking her from me and convincing me that the sting was so trivial as to barely register, Sophs was back to her usual bouncy, confident self, blagging treats from reception... They really DO pick up on our fears and other emotions!

I think Astro sounds like a thoroughly nice pup who needs a bit more experience around other dogs - as do most of our pups who don't grow up in a pack of them. I'd set up as many playdates with nice dogs as I could, and a couple of truly reward based classes a week, even if it meant sitting on the sidelines a bit. I found with Poppy that working on revving up/calming down helped a lot with silliness - she will always, I hope, be a bit silly (it is part of who she is), but it does help to have a cue to stop it going over the top at inappropriate moments.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Buck's trainer is affiliated with a doggie daycare/boarding outfit. I mentioned your issue and she said that there is a doggie "rest" period and plenty of them are barking their heads off when they are crated and are not "fired". As to the Poodle purist, all I can say is that while parti's are not the breed standard now, they were depicted in many of the earliest examples of Poodles in art history. Personally, I would like them to be included as part of our breed rainbow.


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## 24953 (Oct 27, 2013)

knittingmolly said:


> I think I've been somewhat ... my little dog.


Our red standard male who shows/did show similar behaviors is _highly_ bred - his uncle was world champ last year - his parents national show dogs with plenty of accolades, our female while she has plenty of champs in her breeding is not as good stock as him, her parents aren't shown, and she has a better temperament, a perfect temperament, the perfect poodle. He has been carefully bred for every feature, the perfect ears, snout, coat, temperament and he is not as good in temperament as the "lesser" bred standard (white). Sorry but I think drop that trainer, you need someone grounded with training dogs, focused on your dog, not clouded by negative notions about the dog. If the dog behaves most of the time, you don't have anything to worry about, it can be fixed, he will grow into it in other situations, keep bringing him to busy places and different places and train him to sit there, the more different places he will get used to situations that are uneasy for him and control himself. Even if he is well trained - tricks and more training - on anything - it just makes them listen to you in all situations, bond with you more and control their instincts to behave certain ways. Just give it time, hes too little yet.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Haha--what an interesting report! It sounds like you can take the good advice of this person (and it sounds like she was very correct about certain things) and just quietly ignore the slights. Sounds like you picked up some great insights and a certain amount of reassurance. Really, Astro sounds like a very normal pup and a very good one.

Speaking of his breeder, have you asked the breeder about some of these behaviors? She might have some insight based on knowing his family.

As for the parti thing, yeah, there are some purists! And there are certainly breeders who take no heed of anything *but* trendy colors, breeding pell-mell and darn the conformation. I've seen some rather, err..., poorly built partis...but then I've seen poorly built solids, too. I don't think barking or pawing are "parti-gene-linked" traits! (Though Sugarfoot, a tuxedo parti, is incredibly "pawsy." Hmm....) There are a lot of people who think certain traits are more prevalent in certain colors. The whole "browns are clowns" thing seems to be a popular one. But barking? 

It sounds like you did get something out of this visit, especially in getting to see Astro play with other dogs appropriately. That's great! It's really coming together with him. You're doing wonderfully!

--Q


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks for the update. I am glad you got some positive feedback from her, even if she is a poodles snob amongst poodle snobs.

So ditch the old place for training and for day care for once and for all.

Do you have any ideas on where to go to find a new and good trainer? If not, I would suggest looking on the AKC website to search for obedience clubs in your area (sorry you aren't on Long Island, I'd love to have you and Astro come to my Friday novice class). I can't explain exactly how to do it on their new website and don't have a ton of time right now to figure it out.

The other thing would be to use the find a trainer search tool on the Association of Professional Dog Trainers website https://apdt.com/trainer-search/ Look for someone who is CPDT-KA certified.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Oops, I meant as part of the AKC breed standards. I agree the Poodle "expert" was terribly insensitive but I hope your takeaway was that he's a normal Poodle pup. I thank the stars every day that I headed Eric's advice (Gracie's Dad from Australia) that Poodles are not always the easiest dogs to train for a novice and got a trainer. I didn't consider myself a novice, but I freely admit that now


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I think that's hogwash that those behaviors are anything whatsoever to do with the fact that he's a parti Poodle or of lesser breeding. Behavior itself is epigenetic anyhow. There is no gene for jumping up on other dogs. He sounds delightful.

What you're describing are normal puppy behaviors. He's a cotton pickin' puppy for gosh sakes! He has yet to grow up and learn things. I can't understand why this trainer made you feel like this. 

My young Poodles are well bred puppies and my most exuberant one is still rather obnoxious with some dogs...pushing to play, persistent, getting up in their faces, putting his feet up on them while his tail is about to wag itself right off into the great yonder...etc. He's 2 years old! He's lovely and much more mellow at home too and very well behaved. But socially with playing with other dogs, he still has some maturing to do. I probably haven't let him play with enough dogs...it's just not often enough or maybe it's just him. Maurice is more subtle and mellow and isn't quite so wild when he gets with other dogs. But even Matisse will settle down if the other dog plays his cards right.


There is nothing wrong with your puppy! Depending on how much exposure and practice he gets, if they're happy experiences with other dogs, and a whole lot of other things...and _time_ will determine how he matures. Just get him together with a dog or two that you know...dogs that are tolerant, cheerful, friends' dogs or a very small class (6 dogs) where you observe the training first before you sign up. Make sure it's a PR trainer and one you think you can benefit from. 

Let him be a puppy. Puppies don't turn into perfectly well behaved, perfectly mannered, more sedate adult dogs in only a few months. Every dog has his own personality and individuals will vary tremendously, even within a breed. From what you describe, there is nothing abnormal about your puppy.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Lots of good advice here....and I too truly believe this is just normal puppy behaviours and for a first time dog owner I can see how this could be pretty puzzling and overwhelming. 

My opinion is that some situations are too over stimulating for your pup and he is showing signs of stress......his method of relieving this stress is coming out in undesirable behaviours suchas barking etc. I would say don't subject him to those situations which are too much out of his comfort zone right now.....like a busy farmer's market, or a daycare where there are so many other dogs, or a busy road. Pay attention to his signals, you will know when it's out of his comfort zone and don't push him.
Walk him in quieter areas, maybe find somebody with another dog and arrange a play date every so often, do some obedience training with him and play some fun games with him as well. Stay in his comfort zone, he will be happier and more relaxed. 
There is no reason he needs to be pushed into anything that is going to over stimulate him at this point. Let him get slowly conditioned to accepting "busy" situations, I think he'll get much better as he matures. He's still pretty young!


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Maddy was like Astro; they grow up! Just keep working with him, I guarantee you'll find he's amazing when he's A few years old. Just keep on with the obedience


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## knittingmolly (Jun 13, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> Thanks for the update. I am glad you got some positive feedback from her, even if she is a poodles snob amongst poodle snobs.
> 
> So ditch the old place for training and for day care for once and for all.
> 
> ...


thanks lily cd--You are right that my next big challenge is finding a great trainer. I appreciate the resources you've listed and I've looking into them a bit. Problem is that, without a firsthand recommendation from someone who really understands what I'm looking for, it's just a list of names. Since the list always includes the names of the two trainers who I've already seen (and who are not a good fit for Astro and I), I have little faith in my ability to choose someone else from the list.

I know that looking for someone CPDT-KA certified will narrow the field and I can also search for someone who uses positive reinforcement, but once again, the two women I've already seen make both those claims and were not right for us. 

I guess I need to email my local poodle club and ask for someone's personal advice but I'm not sure how to express to THEM exactly what I need in a trainer, besides LOTS of experience.

After all, the first trainer I went to came highly recommended and has been listed as "best of the city" many times. She's popular and I think that for a dog without tendencies like Astro's, she can be a great fit. 

I'm wondering if I should be talking to people who are really serious about either agility or therapy dog training (or some other more in-depth endeavor) in order to find a trainer who is passionate about understanding and shaping dog behavior. 

I wish I lived in the same town with kikopup!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would ask if you could observe a class before signing up, and then, if it looks as if it might possibly be a good fit, try and book a short one-to-one for you and Astro with the trainer before committing to a course of lessons.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Here is a link to AKC affiliated clubs in New Mexico that offer training classes. I hope there is something near you. Since your local area APDT members list doesn't seem to be getting you what you need this might be better.

https://www.apps.akc.org/apps/events/obedience/training_clubs/index.cfm?action=search_state&state=NM


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## Mvinotime (May 25, 2015)

I don't have much poodle experience but what you described is normal puppy behavior in my opinion. I work twice a day with my five mos old on training and he knows many commands both voice and hand very well and is a mellow dog in the house and calm even while his pack of small dogs are behaving like banshees HOWEVER when in a distracting situation such as today meeting some family dogs he has not met before all those go out the window lol and he is also exuberant and pulling and barking and wanting to play. Getting his focus back is very hard. He is young and just experiencing the world and I know he will get better in time. To say most poodles only ever need to be told something once is crazy to me. Pups are pups. And the partis paw? That is just silly lol my boy uses his feet too and he is brown as brown can be  I think you are doing great and your pup will be just fine. I agree with those who say doggie daycare might not be best though. I put that in line with dog parks which I also dislike and would not frequent. If you have friends or family with dogs that is a great way to get play time in as well as start learning some doggie manners in much better and controlled environment.


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## knittingmolly (Jun 13, 2014)

Mvinotime said:


> I don't have much poodle experience but what you described is normal puppy behavior in my opinion. I work twice a day with my five mos old on training and he knows many commands both voice and hand very well and is a mellow dog in the house and calm even while his pack of small dogs are behaving like banshees HOWEVER when in a distracting situation such as today meeting some family dogs he has not met before all those go out the window lol and he is also exuberant and pulling and barking and wanting to play. Getting his focus back is very hard. He is young and just experiencing the world and I know he will get better in time. To say most poodles only ever need to be told something once is crazy to me. Pups are pups. And the partis paw? That is just silly lol my boy uses his feet too and he is brown as brown can be  I think you are doing great and your pup will be just fine. I agree with those who say doggie daycare might not be best though. I put that in line with dog parks which I also dislike and would not frequent. If you have friends or family with dogs that is a great way to get play time in as well as start learning some doggie manners in much better and controlled environment.


Thanks for sharing (very familiar) anecdotes about your 5 month-old and reassuring me that things are probably as they are supposed to be with a puppy this age… I'm so immersed in this experience and in such foreign territory with dog ownership, so that I have NO PERSPECTIVE. I'm grateful.

Today, Astro had Ellie (the pit bull, whippet cross) over to play and it was fun to watch! Both dogs ran in circles around the yard, rolled around and at times, Astro barked and barked as he played (which sucked--I hate the barking), but he also had loads of fun and he listened when Ellie told him to BACK OFF!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

"Astro barked and barked as he played (which sucked--I hate the barking), but he also had loads of fun and he listened when Ellie told him to BACK OFF!"

You must let your dog bark when he plays, period. Barking at strange people/dogs is normal but should be controlled. He must bark/Growl/snarl at clear and present danger as he sees it. I have taught a number of dogs a half bark (one person here has called it a whisper bark) Full bark for play. Full bark for danger. Half bark elsewhere.
Eric


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Your PUPPY sounds a lot like my Stella. She was on her 3rd owner (me) before she was 3 years old , because she was not like the poodle dream ... but the good news is that she matured and she is a dream poodle now ! When I got her she was aggressive with other dogs, played to rough and rude for the ones that she liked... the only dog that could handle her was a Lab male pup . She is 5 years old now and her favorite play mate is a 12lb Boston Terrier. She is very gentle with smaller dogs now. Your dog will get there, don't worry. I used to say that Stella did not have one bit of the " want to please" in her. But she does now. I think your dog will get there as well.


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