# NutriScan Summary and Interpretation



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Since I didn't end up going away for the weekend I decided today was a great opportunity to figure out what NutriScan for the three dogs is telling me.

For a start if I had either just the poodles, it would be easy to switch to Canine Caviar Free Spirit for the two of them. I think I may buy a small bag to try for them to see if it would be good as travel food. It has peas and/or lentils which take it off the list for Peeves.

I took the results for each dog and each tested food item and gave the results scores of 2 for negative reactions, 1 for weak responses and 0 for borderline or outright avoid results separately for IgA and IgM for each of the dogs. I then added the results across for each food item to give a maximum good score of 12. I decided to rate anything 8 or above with no dog that was a clear avoid as a usable food, I gave 7s where 2 or more of the dogs could eat that item as neutral and anything with a score of 6 or lower as a negative.

Here are the 8 or betters with their scores: beef (12), chicken (11), duck (9), lamb (11), wheat (8), peanuts (8) and soy (10). Eggs had an 8, but got two zeroes for Peeves. On that basis I can still make my "brownie" treats for the poodles as chicken instead of turkey, bread crumbs and eggs with garlic powder and a bit of parmesan cheese. I have good choices of proteins with beef, chicken and lamb (may mostly stick with chicken, but happy to know that special occasion dinner treats can still be steak; also can still give all of them buffalo ears as chews).

Duck was a 9, so treats with it should be fine.

Pork was 7, so could be okay for all of them, however we don't eat much pork so I am not super inclined to go in that direction, but they can have bacon as a treat and I can use bacon grease that I save as a treat. Rabbit was a 7, but a no for Peeves. Corn was a 7 too, but a no for Lily. Milk was a 7, but is also a no for Lily. Millet and barley were also both 7s, but are no for Peeves.

Eggs, salmon, quinoa, lentils (peas too), potatoes and sweet potatoes were all sixes, but are all off Peeves list of okay foods, plus no potatoes for Javelin. I can still give the poodles salmon skins as chews. 

Fives or less included turkey (5), venison (4), white fish (5), rice (5), oatmeal (4) and potatoes (3). I consider all of those to be off the list totally.

Things not tested for, but noted as being okay for all three dogs include: chick peas, pinto and kidney beans, carrots, zucchini, spinach, green beans, blueberries, cranberries, apples, pears, bananas and melon.

My current train of thought is to cook for them, making something of stew like consistency once a week. I can buy boneless chicken in bulk and available in season vegetables and fruits (organics).

I have one or two questions for you all and the wealth of knowledge everybody here offers. First, do you think I could use bulgar wheat as a grain source and to put a bit of fiber into them? Second, do you think I need to add a vitamin/mineral supplement like sea kelp powder or something along those lines? Lastly, does any of you have a portion chart based on body weight of some sort and should I feed once or twice a day?

Thanks everyone for following along and for all of the ideas I am sure you will have forthcoming!


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Hans is a lot like Peeves, I think - ok for a decent variety of proteins but reactive to a lot of the "other stuff." For what it's worth, the Canine Caviar Open Sky is duck based, and no peas (it has chickpeas but according to Dr. Dodds those are usually fine for dogs that have issues with peas/lentils). 

I think the supplements you'll need will depend on exactly what's in the food. If you can, I would suggest including organ meats in your recipe...that will likely cut down on supplements you'll need. You will most likely have to supplement calcium if you aren't feeding bone. I've heard of using eggshells, washed, dried, and ground in a coffee grinder and I also think you can buy powdered bone for that purpose...I haven't personally used either. I have also been supplementing Omega 3 and vitamin E.

What I do to figure out portion sizes when Hans is eating my homemade concoctions is enter all the ingredients into a website that figures the nutritional info for human recipes. I divide the total calories by total weight in ounces (I usually make big batches and freeze). I know roughly how many calories per day Hans needs, so I just figure out how many ounces to feed per meal that way. 

My latest idea, since Hans will continue to eat the few kibbles he can have in combination with my homemade food (either raw or cooked) is to get this software I found called Pet Diet Designer. Basically it looks like you create recipes, it figures out the nutrient and calorie content and compares it to the recommended amounts so you can see what might need to be added. I am just paranoid about Hans missing some important nutrient because he's eating homemade food, and my vet is not a fan of anything other than commercial food so she's no help. 

I'm just waiting until my new computer arrives next week to get the software, but I'll let you know how it works. I'd be happy to enter your homemade recipe in there too (assuming it works like it should), if you want, so you can see what all the nutrient levels come out to.

I know some raw feeders who feed one meal per day....I can't get Hans to eat a whole day's worth of food at once so I do two meals - 630am and 5pm or so. If they are all ok with wheat, I don't see why you couldn't use bulgur wheat.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I like the canine caviar a lot for a pea free option. The Free Spirit and Open Meadow and Open Sky are all pea free.  The only thing that gives me pause is that fat is listed as the third or so ingredient in each of their pea-free formulas and there was that study that found chicken fat as the third ingredient being a risk factor...I know better than to put much weight in that but...so far I have been superstitious.

Have you looked at Grandma Lucy's? Another one to consider is Sportdogfood. I have fed both GL's and SDF. Check out the Elite line. Complete Dog Food for Highly Active Dogs | SportDogFood.com


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thank you both for your thoughtful replies. Firestorm will that software work on a Mac? If you find you like it, I might consider it too, since then I would be able to recalculate as often as I like.

One other thing I was a little reluctant in terms of is the emphasis on alkaline diet with the Canine Caviar. Lily already has a higher than normal urine pH, so I am not sure how that would work for her.

CM thanks for those other food suggestions. I will look them over.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Thank you both for your thoughtful replies. Firestorm will that software work on a Mac? If you find you like it, I might consider it too, since then I would be able to recalculate as often as I like.
> 
> One other thing I was a little reluctant in terms of is the emphasis on alkaline diet with the Canine Caviar. Lily already has a higher than normal urine pH, so I am not sure how that would work for her.
> 
> CM thanks for those other food suggestions. I will look them over.


Unfortunately they don't have a Mac version yet. All my personal computers are macs but our business computers are PCs. I'm going to use it on one of those, once we get the new ones (we were over due for an upgrade, so we took advantage of a Black Friday/cyber Monday deal).


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Honest Kitchen makes a Kindly Dehydrated Dog Food Base, which I believe nifty incorporated into Dulcie's meals to cover the vitamins and minerals.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Mfmst Honest Kitchen choices that I've looked at all have something in them that is off the list! I can find foods that will work either for both poodles, or both boys, but so far nothing for all three.

I am still thinking I will either cook for them or perhaps find something for the poodles and something different for Peeves alone. I plan to check with some local butchers today to see what kind of pricing I can get on a volume purchase.


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## Lori G (Sep 19, 2014)

Catherine, if you are moving away from commercial dog food, what is the benefit of cooking for them vs going raw? I do NOT have a scientific mind like you, or many others here, but I find the food discussions so interesting!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

My main goal is to get rid of the foods that they have intolerances/sensitivities to. I have had zero luck on finding a commercial food that is limited enough in ingredients like peas, pearl millet, barley and corn to work for all of them. It would be much easier when I travel and/or leave the dogs in someone else's care if they all ate the same thing.

The microbiologist in me recognizes that dogs are not terribly susceptible to _Salmonella_ and the like but knows we are, and there are some folks in our family that are a little more vulnerable based on immune status. So the desire to cook is in part fueled by consideration of human concerns.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

My dogs eat half raw. So, one frozen patty of raw for breakfast (Stella & Chewy's). It's a commercial product which means its High Pressure Pasteurized. Risk of illness is pretty low. Much easier than home cooked because it's already prepared. I thaw out about 6 patties at a time (2 days worth).


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

It's very expensive, but check out Ziwipeak as a base. It has a very short list of ingredients, and no grains or legumes at all.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I wish I could afford Ziwipeak. It would be ideal, but at over $300 for an 11 pound bag, it can't happen unless one of us wins the lottery.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> I wish I could afford Ziwipeak. It would be ideal, but at over $300 for an 11 pound bag, it can't happen unless one of us wins the lottery.


Ha ha ha. Well, it's only actually about half that cost, but it's still insanely expensive! I figure if I'm spending $140+ dollars on food, it's going to *actually* be raw, not just really expensive dry food.  I use it for training treats....or occasionally I give one scoop for "lunch" to supplement, if we've had an active day hiking, etc.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Ha ha ha. Well, it's only actually about half that cost, but it's still insanely expensive! I figure if I'm spending $140+ dollars on food, it's going to *actually* be raw, not just really expensive dry food.  I use it for training treats....or occasionally I give one scoop for "lunch" to supplement, if we've had an active day hiking, etc.


I just saw it on Amazon for $305/11 lb bag. I didn't look around to see other buying options since that price made me fall off the chair.

Ian Dunbar thinks it is the best dog food in the world. He uses it for training with each piece broken up into tiny bits.


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## StormeeK (Aug 3, 2015)

Maybe feeding them each their own specific diet is the easiest and least expensive way to go??? I have the three dogs also and for no real scientific reason they each get something a little different, mainly due to what they were eating when I got them. Dewey gets the commercial raw ( Nature's Variety ) and a little of the same brand kibble in the morning ( he came from the breeder on that) and Honest Kitchen with home cooked protein at night. The GSDs are on another kibble ( still good but lower price because they eat more) with other toppers in the morning and Rex gets Honest Kitchen at night. Since Josie had been on the absolute worst kibble and canned brands known to man most of her life she is very grateful for good quality kibble and other things I add. Her hair and nails have changed dramatically in the last few months. It's really not hard to keep everyone straight mainly because they eat everything within 3 - 4 minutes and no dog is allowed to stand or look at another dog while they are eating. If I'm gone my husband doesn't mind getting separate food out for them as long as I leave instructions. 

I just started a few months ago using Honest Kitchen because my big fear is not getting the nutrients, especially the Ca/P ratio correct in the home cooking but I wanted them to have fresh meat also. I know your guys can't have the potatoes or peas in the HK but maybe there are other premixes that do meet their requirements that can be combined with the fresh protein. I feel so much better now that I am combining the mix with the meat and they absolutely love it. I'm still cooking it because like you, the microbiologist in me could just "see" the bacteria on Dewey's ear hair and Rex's muzzle after they ate but one day I may change and add in the raw. 

Well good luck! I've been thinking of doing a Nutriscan on Rex (he's the one I'm thinking could have some sensitivities )but am waiting to see how your story ends. It sounds like a mind blowing puzzle with all three dogs! 
( PS Sorry to hear about Jav having to get stitches! )


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Check out 'Only Natural Pet Grainfree Max-Meat Air Dried' at Pet360.com.........No grains, potatoes,peas or lentils etc 90% meat. 
I bought a bag of this and really like it! It comes in Chicken, Beef, or Lamb & Fish....I thought the chicken or beef would be good for you! 
It's a dehydrated meat based food and you can feed as is(it's a complete diet) or use it as a topper or break it into treats.....very versatile! 
They list all the nutritional info on this site too.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Ziwipeak is made in NZ, so it's probably cheaper for Ian Dunbar 11 pounds of Australian lamb would be cheaper. I have sticker shock from a $300 bag of dog food!


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I pay about $135 for an 11 lb bag of Ziwipeak lamb. A little goes a long way--that will feed one of mine for over a month, with added stuff in the morning and evening (egg, yogurt, and canned food).


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I like the canine caviar a lot for a pea free option. The Free Spirit and Open Meadow and Open Sky are all pea free. The only thing that gives me pause is that fat is listed as the third or so ingredient in each of their pea-free formulas and there was that study that found chicken fat as the third ingredient being a risk factor...I know better than to put much weight in that but...so far I have been superstitious.
> 
> Have you looked at Grandma Lucy's? Another one to consider is Sportdogfood. I have fed both GL's and SDF. Check out the Elite line. Complete Dog Food for Highly Active Dogs | SportDogFood.com


CM....There's a good food called "Great Life Grain Free" that is pea free and the oil is way down at the bottom of the ingredient list too! Thought of you when I read the Ingredients!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Mfmst Ian Dunbar lives in the San Francisco/Berkley area, so if he gets Ziwipeak on the cheap it must be his special price (if only I were a famous dog trainer). Verve, I need a super limited ingredient diet if it is going to work for the three dogs, so I have had to take many suggestions people have made off the list. Although I know I would feed less volume of something like Ziwipeak if I used it alone it still sounds cost prohibitive. Right now it costs me about $125-150 a month to feed them and I would like to stay in that range, if possible.

Keep the suggestions coming. Crowd sourcing is what will get me a solution!


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm making Babykin's meals right now and for many years I had to make home made food for my tpoo due to her pancreatitis. I suggest when considering the starch and other non-meat additions to the diet - look for foods that they digest well. 

Vets always recommend rice for sick tummies - but frankly they don't digest rice well in my limited experience of two poodles. Even ground up rice from the food processor can be seen in the stool. I know you are avoiding potato which is what I'm using - but look for something like potato. I never see lumps of potatoes in the stool - the stool comes out looking pretty uniform.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> My main goal is to get rid of the foods that they have intolerances/sensitivities to. I have had zero luck on finding a commercial food that is limited enough in ingredients like peas, pearl millet, barley and corn to work for all of them. It would be much easier when I travel and/or leave the dogs in someone else's care if they all ate the same thing.
> 
> The microbiologist in me recognizes that dogs are not terribly susceptible to _Salmonella_ and the like but knows we are, and there are some folks in our family that are a little more vulnerable based on immune status. So the desire to cook is in part fueled by consideration of human concerns.


There are multiple members of my raw feeding group that have household members with immune deficiency of some kind. They take some precautions but still feed raw. Basically all meat is handled the same way you would when cooking for yourself, plus they make sure any surface where the dog eats is cleaned and the dog's face and paws are wipe down after eating. I feed Aaah outside almost exclusively unless there's a blizzard or thunderstorm, then she eats in her crate and I wipe down her Primo Pad after eating. When my 5 month old nieces are over, I also wipe her feet and face and she is not allowed to lick them (or anyone else, because yuck, dog spit). The raw feeders I know who show or compete in dog sports either take frozen stuff or dehydrated/freeze dried food when traveling. 

I know raw won't work for every person, but it sounds like DIY raw might be the easiest way for you to accomodate everyone's needs since you can just avoid feeding what they're sensitive to. Prey model automatically takes care of all the grains/vegetables/legumes, and even with BARF you can avoid all the things you listed.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Skylar said:


> I'm making Babykin's meals right now and for many years I had to make home made food for my tpoo due to her pancreatitis. I suggest when considering the starch and other non-meat additions to the diet - look for foods that they digest well.
> 
> Vets always recommend rice for sick tummies - but frankly they don't digest rice well in my limited experience of two poodles. Even ground up rice from the food processor can be seen in the stool. I know you are avoiding potato which is what I'm using - but look for something like potato. I never see lumps of potatoes in the stool - the stool comes out looking pretty uniform.



Rice, potatoes and sweet potatoes are all off at least one dog's list. I planned to use whole wheat pasta.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

MollyMuiMa said:


> CM....There's a good food called "Great Life Grain Free" that is pea free and the oil is way down at the bottom of the ingredient list too! Thought of you when I read the Ingredients!


Yes! Great Life & Pioneer Naturals were owned by the same Company. Pioneer Naturals is being phased out and the Sportdogfood I recommended is in its place. I can't remember why I chose Pioneer Naturals/Sportdogfood over Great Life, but I know I had a reason!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

A Good list of homemade dog food recipes ...........Google; 56 Homemade Dog Food Recipes


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Rice, potatoes and sweet potatoes are all off at least one dog's list. I planned to use whole wheat pasta.


Having to avoid both potatoes/sweet potatoes and peas/lentils sure limits the options, doesn't it? In addition to the Canine Caviar, we found Grandma Lucy's Pureformance (chickpea based) and Grandma Lucy's Macanna (has pinto beans and hemp hearts) that will work. Both of them are available as a premix that you add your own meat and water to or with single proteins (freeze dried) added (you just add water) so they could work as a travel option for you. The other Grandma Lucy's formulas have stuff on the avoid list. I was able to find the Pureformance on Amazon but it looks like I would have to order the Macanna direct from the manufacturer or see if I can find a pet store that can order it.

I think the Grandma Lucy's would be more expensive than making your own food, especially for 3 big dogs, but it would be convenient when you don't have refrigerators available. I fed Ziwipeak to Hans for a while....I can't imagine feeding that to more than one dog. I was spending a fortune, which is why we started making our own food.

Also, I had a thought - what about whole wheat couscous? Ingredient wise, it's pasta, but it's nice tiny pieces that seem like they would mix in well with the other ingredients in the stew. It cooks fast, too.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

FireStorm said:


> In addition to the Canine Caviar, we found Grandma Lucy's Pureformance (chickpea based) and Grandma Lucy's Macanna (has pinto beans and hemp hearts) that will work. Both of them are available as a premix that you add your own meat and water to or with single proteins (freeze dried) added (you just add water) so they could work as a travel option for you. The other Grandma Lucy's formulas have stuff on the avoid list. I was able to find the Pureformance on Amazon but it looks like I would have to order the Macanna direct from the manufacturer or see if I can find a pet store that can order it.


Macanna is only currently available directly from Grandma Lucy's website and only in the smaller sized bag. Per Grandma Lucy's, it should be available on Chewy by January and they hope to have it available in the large 11 lb size soon, too.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

No idea, but maybe one of Wysong's specialized formulas could help? I didn't vet for ingredients; use Uretic for my cat.

Fundamentals? - Limited Ingredient Dog & Cat Food | Wysong
Anergen? - Hypoallergenic Dog & Cat Food | Wysong
Nurture with Quail? Dog & Cat Food | Wysong
Epigen? - High Protein & Starch Free Dry Dog & Cat Food | Wysong


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't think I have looked at those yet. I will check them out later.


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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

It's pricey and not a kibble, but the very berry chicken Smack might work.
http://smackpetfood.com/collections/very-berry-chicken-crunchy-style


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

kayla_baxter said:


> It's pricey and not a kibble, but the very berry chicken Smack might work.
> Very Berry Chicken | Crunchy Style | Smack Pet Food
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


WHOA! That is pricey!!! ($109.00 for 5.5#bag) Take a look at the Only Natural Pet MaxMeat Chicken and you will see it is basically the same thing, just not berries,it's Chicken & pumpkin! But is a like formula of meat with bone and organs included (like in the Smack brand.) Price is less than 1/2 of what "Smack" brand is! (7.5# bag of Only Natural is $48.99 at Pet360)
Kayla, it's really good too ....or at my girl thinks so hahaha!!!!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Hi lily cd re, I've been away a lot lately and I just saw this thread. Mfmst mentioned that I use Kindly (Honest Kitchen) base mix with Dulcie's raw grinds and I do - also Preference. Looking at the ingredients on the boxes, though, I see that both of them include peas in the ingredients (more in Preference). Also Preference has sweet potatoes, which I see is also a no no for your household. I also use Sojos base mix -- but alas, it also contains peas, down on the list.

A lot of people say the prey model of meat, organ and bone is sufficient for a dog's diet and that may be true, but I definitely noticed that Dulcie displays some odd foraging behavior when she has only the prey diet. That is why I looked into base mixes to add a little veggie and fruit and a little portion of complex carbs. I only use a small portion (the box may say use a cup with the portion of meat, but I use about 1/3 C (or even less of the Sojos) and 1/2 lb of the raw meat,bone and organ. This seems to work out well for Dulcie and stops the foraging behavior when we are out walking. She maintains a healthy weight and is in great health, so this works for us. However, Dulcie has no (known) food sensitivities. Mind you, she does have food PREFERENCES -- for instance, when she was young and still eating some kibble, her favorite was the rabbit formula of Nature's Variety Instinct. Strangely, though, she will not eat the coarse grind of raw rabbit that I was so excited to find for her! I tried it several times, with several days between but no go. 

My source for whole animal prey model coarse raw grinds is My Pet Carnivore, based in Indianapolis. They ship al over th country and to my mind, even with the Fed Ex shipping, a month's supply is pretty economical and compares pretty favorably to the cost of high quality kibble. It is a little more, but the quality is so good that it is worth it. I am lucky that they do something of a milk run in Chicagoland (and many other places in a 4-5state area) so I pay a base rate (about $15) for route delivery -- and I meet the truck at a local supermarket parking lot where I pick up my one or two boxes of frozen grinds. I let them defrost in the fridge when I get home and then I repackage them into serving sizes. It is safe to refreeze.

You can get a wide variety of meats from MPC -- beef, lamb, pork and chicken of course, but also mutton (cheaper than lamb and slightly fattier but tastier), turkey, duck, rabbit, emu (!), muskrat (! Dulcy loves this!) and a couple of types of fish (both lake varieties from Michigan native American tribes). The meats and fish are all humanely raised and butchered -- top quality.

Something to consider as you are figuring this out!

ETA I spend about $85- $100 per month for Dulcie's food (not counting delivery) and that usually includes a bag or two of duck necks and several raw beef tracheas (each package contains one trachea cut in half -- so two roughly 6-8 inch pieces. I further divide them into about 2-3 inch pieces. At I think 1.98 per package, these go a long way and are a great chewy addition to a meal and also provide some joint health nutrient - I don't recall what exactly). The rest of her diet is made up of the occasion pork back ribs if they go on sale at my local grocer or even a beef short rib when the sale is really good (like today when they had a surplus after the holiday) -- I also get Amish chicken from this grocer when they are priced well and I just have him cut them in half or quarters before I freeze them for portions. Most of Dulcie's diet is the MPC grinds, however. The bone in meats I get locally are more of a treat and to give her some bone chewing satisfaction.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

I should add that about once or twice a week, I squirt the fish oil from a capsule onto her food (I just use human grade but the one closest to the dog recommended ones). I also often top her food with a spoonful of plain greek yogurt (chobani or Fage), which I always have on hand because I eat it myself. LOL

Other than that, though, I don't supplement her diet.

ETA Dang, I forgot I also sometimes toss a can of whole sardines on top of her dish, especially if she hasn't been too eager for whatever it is. 

All of the above are not scheduled but more occasional toppers I add just to please her or (in the case of the fish oil) as a bit of extra insurance.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

ARGH! I forgot one other really important thing about MPC -- they offer tripe! Several animal sources. You can get it alone or in various grinds already mixed in (that is how I buy it, because I don't want to deal with mixing it in myself). I think they call those grinds something like "Lamb Supreme" or "Beef Supreme" or similar.

Regarding your concerns about salmonella etc when dealing with raw - I really understand that! Certainly cooking food can alleviate some of that concern, although you will still have to handle the raw meat before cooking. 

I was concerned about kitchen hygiene as well -- having had a memorable bout with food poisoning when I was younger, I don't mess around in the kitchen at all! That is the main reason why I repackage my grinds as quickly as possible. I put the deli containers in y fridge with paper towels under them and as soon as they are just thawed enough to be able to divide the 2lbs into 4 portions, I get straight to work. I use plastic food handling gloves and put the servings into small freezer bags. I bag up 40-50 servings (Dulcie eats twice a day) and then stock up the freezer. This takes me about an hour. Then I clean the counter tops and fridge thoroughly and I'm done for another month! 

Dulcie doesn't need her food totally thawed. As long as it is thawed enough for me to chop the base mix through it a bit, she is OK with it cold. This helps with kitchen cleanliness too, since I don't have dripping raw food around.

Food for thought!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

nifty, thank you so much for your thorough review of what you have done with Dulcie's diet.

kayla_baxter I looked up your suggestion, unfortunately no one near me carries it, and wow on the price.

All of you have been so kind to take the time to make thoughtful suggestions and even to do research for me. I hope that other folks will find useful ideas here if they want to do NutriScan and then make diet changes to help their dogs get maximal health benefits from their food. 

This has been a great crowd sourcing conversation. I realized that I think I will need to wait to make the switch until the semester is over. Peeves has a sensitive gut and had such issues about changing diet the last time we switched that I stayed home with him for two days. I can't do that so close to the end of the fall semester.

A couple of my work colleagues have been able to direct me towards butchers nearby where I should be able to get the meat ingredients for a cooked diet that I think will work for us. As I get closer to finalizing my plans I will have a consult with my vet and post here as well to make sure I haven't missed anything.

Thanks again, to be continued...


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Hi Catherine, I'm looking forward to reading about your new feeding plans!

I wanted to correct a mistake I made earlier just as a matter of record. I stated that both the HK and SOJOs base mixes contained peas and that is incorrect. The SOJOs does NOT contain peas. It does, however, contain sweet potato (first ingredient).


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

nifty said:


> Hi Catherine, I'm looking forward to reading about your new feeding plans!
> 
> I wanted to correct a mistake I made earlier just as a matter of record. I stated that both the HK and SOJOs base mixes contained peas and that is incorrect. *The SOJOs does NOT contain peas. It does, however, contain sweet potato (first ingredient)*.


And therein lies my complicated dilemma! Even though it might not help me I am sure that your correction will help others who are making feeding decisions down the road. 

I did order some items in furtherance of the plan to cook for them. I got a good new kitchen scale that weighs accurately from just a couple of ounces all the way to eight pounds. I also got a new canister set to keep dry supplements in. I also got a couple of packages each of organic sea kelp powder for an iodide source, and a couple of packages of calcium citrate powder in the event I run out of or don't have time to make bone broth. I also bought a couple of small cases of pints of bone broth to start or again if I don't have time to make. And lastly I got a case of whole wheat rotini to use as a carb source. We can eat some of that ourselves too.

I have three poultry farms I will check with and two local butchers: one who grinds their own local brand raw; one a wholesaler who is located near BF's job that someone he knows buys meat for his dog from that I will visit to find my meat source vendor. I don't really want to buy a freezer and so I would prefer to develop a relationship with a local meat provider. I have a very large enameled french oven that I rarely use which should be good for cooking a week to ten day's worth of meat at a time. I also just bought some good ziploc containers with screw top lids that I can use for making portions.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Sounds like you are ready and set to go once the holiday break begins!


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I just wanted to update now that I've had some time to play with the software. It came with quite a few recipes already balanced, but I will have to tweak them for Hans because most of them use cod liver oil and fish/salmon oil. I haven't spent a ton of time, but did come up with a beef and rice recipe for Hans. I did find that I'll have to supplement vitamin D - most of the recipes provide at least some of it in the form of cod liver oil. Hans isn't supposed to have any fish, but I did find some liquid vitamin D intended for human babies that I can add. I'll also be using krill oil or plant based oils instead of fish oil. 

So basically what I've found I will need for supplements if I make cooked recipes: Krill oil (was already doing this), vitamin D, vitamin E (was already doing this), kelp powder, and calcium (either bone meal or egg shell).

That's assuming I'm making foods that include a protein, organ meat (liver, kidney, I also add heart, although that counts as muscle more than organ), a carbohydrate, assorted veggies/berries/fruits, and some sort of plant based oil. 

So I could pretty easily make a batch of food, add the required amounts of supplements to the batch, and freeze it in portions. That's what I've come up with just playing around for a short time with the software. Hopefully that helps...they do have a chicken and pasta recipe that's already in the software. I can try to adjust it to avoid the cod liver oil and fish oil later if you want. Hans can't have chicken so I haven't done it yet.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks for that update. A chicken and pasta recipe as primary is at the core of my thinking. I could probably add cod liver oil for Peeves portions and salmon oil for the poodles. Or I could use hemp oil which is an excellent source of the omega 3 and omega 6 unsaturated fatty acids (better than flax seed oil I believe). 

I do have butchers to check out for prices and parts options. I hate the smell of liver, but I guess I could stand boiling a bunch of chicken livers in batches to mix in with other stuff.

It sounds like we are both getting closer to solutions.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Ok, here is the original chicken and pasta recipe, balanced according to the software I have:

8oz ground chicken
0.75 cup macaroni 
4 chicken livers
3 teaspoons bone meal
2 scoops kelp powder
0.5 teaspoon fish oil
3 cups spinach
0.5 teaspoon canola oil
0.5 tsp cod liver oil

For changes, if you eliminate the cod liver oil, the recipe provides 0% of the daily recommended serving of Vitamin D. You could replace it with a vitamin D supplement.

Eliminating the liver and replacing it with chicken meat makes the recipe low in Copper, Zinc, Selenium, B5, B12, and Choline. I have not found a replacement yet, but you might be able to.

Of course, you can replace the fish oil with another omega 3 source.

The recipe is for 1083 calories of food, it's one days food for a hypothetical 45lb dog.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Firestorm, thank you so much! I think I can make myself deal with chicken livers. For the fish oil I can add either cod or salmon at the end as appropriate for whose food it is.

That portion would be about right, just a bit short for Javelin. I can make a ratio from that portion to get the right amounts for Lily and Peeves. Lily would be a tiny bit under that and Peeves would be a bit more than double it.

I have two questions, does ground chicken mean whole raw grind or cooked meat or something else? And what would constitute a scoop for kelp powder, a coffee scoop?


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

How is the calorie count figured, Firestorm? When I couldn't find the calories listed on Buck's kibble, I called the local rep and was quoted 390 calories per C.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

The chicken is just regular ground chicken from the grocery store. I'm sure you could substitute whatever boneless, skinless chicken you can get a good price on. The kelp powder, a scoop is 1/8 teaspoon, so it's really tiny. If you are substituting Vitamin D for the cod liver oil, you'd need 200 IU per day for that amount of food. The Vitamin D I have is 100 IU per drop. 

The software does the calorie count for you, but when I made homemade raw grind for Hans before I used nutrition data.self.com to calculate it. I figured out the calories and weight for everything, then dividied it out by weight into daily portions. I use a kitchen scale to portion stuff. Hans eats between 1200-1500 calories per day depending on his activity level (on active days he'll finish his food and still act hungry so I feed him more then). 

On another note, I just made a batch of homemade kibble for Hans. It looked really awful, especially before it was baked, but he though it was yummy. It was Bison and Coconut Flour (with other stuff added). I mostly did it because the house was cold and I wanted to do a bunch of baking so the oven could be on, lol.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

*Taking the plunge...cooking today*

Here we go! I went out and bought four chickens this morning and had them quartered. They are in a big stock pot right now braising in bone broth. Once the meat is tender enough to be falling off the bones I will pick the meat off and throw the bones back into the broth to make my own enriched bone broth. After the chicken is ready I will cook up some pasta, veggies (spinach and carrots this round) and chicken livers (bought a 5 lb. bucket of them separately).

I will then make a dinner portion for each dog to introduce them to the concept tonight. BF is convinced they won't know to eat it as a meal and that they will want to leave some over to graze on during the night, but I somehow think it will all disappear pretty fast. Stay tuned...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am very happy so far with how things are going. Although I spent a ton of time yesterday cooking chicken, pasta, chicken livers and getting the other ingredients organized as far as the dogs are concerned it seems to be a hit.

Here is my biggest french oven on the stove full of chicken quarters. After braising for a couple of hours I was able to easily pick the meat off the bones. I returned the bones and other bits to the pot and am cooking it deeply to make my own bone broth for the next round of cooking chickens. I think the next time I cook chickens I will use my two biggest french ovens and make more chicken with the concept of being able to store some cooked meat in the freezer. I would like to cook only once or twice a month for the chickens.









Last night I put shredded raw spinach in the mix and they had a hard time eating it all since it stuck to the bowls, so this morning I took the spinach, oils, calcium and some water and pulverized it in my nutri-bullet. That worked very well because everyone cleaned their bowl this morning.

















During the night last night I heard Javelin go look at and nose around a bit in the kibble bowl, but he didn't eat anything. I have a feeling we will not use any of the small bag of kibble I bought yesterday as insurance.

*FIRESTORM* thank you very very much for the recipe!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

One of the things I did later in the week was some math about the economics of the new food plan. At $1.99/pound for whole chickens with the bone in and then taking the meat off the carcasses it was probably going to be about $2.25-2.50 or so for the meat and with needing about 14 pounds of meat a week for the three dogs I think it would have been about $75-80 for two weeks worth of food. This would be $20-25 more per two weeks or $50/month than feeding them Blue Buffalo so in the interest of trying to make this more cost effective I joined Costco today. Putting aside the membership for Costco I found that I can get bulk packs of boneless legs and thighs for $1.89/pound with no waste of bones. This method won't let me make my own bone broth, but that turned out to be a challenge too. I didn't get that much broth from the four chickens worth of bones I boiled and boiled and boiled....

Looking at the cost of the meat I bought today and how many portions it will get me I think it should roughly cost $120 per month to feed the three dogs the cooked chicken recipe Firestorm so kindly worked out for me as compared to about $110 (or a little less) for Blue Buffalo. Assuming this will also help take care of waxy ears and urinary tract issues I think it will be a bargain.


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## StormeeK (Aug 3, 2015)

Just a thought : Chicken hearts and gizzards are really cheap and I believe they count in dog food recipes as muscle not organs. I can get both for about $ 1.2 / lb at certain grocery stores around here. I don't even have to order them. They come in big packs but not sure if this is a local thing or not. Might be a good option to mix in with the thighs and legs. My guys love them.

Glad the cooking is going well. Wishing good health for your family (dogs and humans) this new year!


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Check your local stores and butchers. You may be able to order gizzards and/or hearts in bulk for cheaper. I get gizzards for $0.69/lb...I actually have a whole 40 lb case I can't use. If you lived close I'd just give them to you. The only thing I would be worried about is that there is not much fat in the original recipe and hearts and gizzards are very lean. I can't remember, can all three of your dogs eat pork? Pork butt or shoulder is affordable and higher fat - dogs need it. If you have a couple proteins all three can eat, maybe you can switch it up now and then.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

They can all eat pork as well as chicken, duck, beef and lamb, so I can switch up or even mix protein sources. It is a pretty lean recipe as I am currently cooking it, although I think dark meat is a bit better for some fat content than white meat. I will check on getting gizzards and hearts from a local source, and yes they would certainly count as muscle! Thanks again everyone for all of your helpful ideas. I am getting better at making up the dishes since I can now eyeball most of the components rather than actually measuring cup work. I do make sure I weigh the meat though.

They all continue to clean their dishes.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm sure prices differ by area, but my Costco has boneless pork but for $1.79/lb if you get it by the case. Ethnic markets are also sometimes a good place to find parts like hearts, organs, and tongue.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I just looked back at my summary results and think pork is really a borderline, so beef may be better as a mix in to get some fat or maybe duck or goose livers. Surprisingly the butcher (a good real butcher) where I got my first round of chickens and chicken livers had told me they had chicken livers but not gizzards and hearts. In this area I guess maybe we have a distinct bias towards conventional parts of the animal. I am glad I am working on this during the winter break that I am on right now. It gives me some more flexibility to search around for things and have my routine all set before spring semester classes start.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Are the dogs still free feeding or are they licking their bowls clean immediately? The latter takes a lot of the guesswork out of potty planning.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Mfmst, they lick the bowls clean in one fell swoop when I put them down. Thankfully they aren't inhaling like gluttons, but they work on cleaning the bowl in front of them steadily until it is clean. Since I am putting a fair amount of water in the spinach grind and also some of the saved over broth I am finding that everyone wants a pee stop pretty soon after finishing. That is one more reason I am glad I am working out the details now so that I have the timing down on prep, time to eat and time for potty stop before I walk out for work once classes start again!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

I like your excellent planning for introducing this new diet!


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Do you have access to Blue Ridge Beef products anywhere? They have a website you can look at. The Breeder's Choice beef is an 80/20 mix, and it has no bone in it, so you could cook it. I use it because it's a good amount of fat to offset my lean boneless meat and it's the cheapest beef I can get. $1.55/lb in my area.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

The regular supermarkets near me seem to think that chickens in life never had livers, hearts or gizzards since none of those parts is for sale and the butcher counter folks had no suggestions as to where to find those parts for sale!

I did a little deeper digging and found a local family run market that claimed a really good butcher department. I went to the custom order counter and was thrilled when the butcher told me he had hearts, livers and gizzards all out for sale at the prepackaged cases and that he could also make up a 5 or 10 pound package of any of those items for me on one days notice. They also are not very far from my home! I was super happy to make this find with hearts being just $1.49 per pound and gizzards being $1.69 per pound. Therefore, even if I just add in a good portion of hearts to the deboned leg and thigh meat I can get at Costco for $1.79 per pound I will be bringing the cost closer to the cost of kibble and keeping my budget from going berserkers.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Check this out too. I think they have a stop in Long Island, might be some good parts you can use if you're able to buy in bulk. That's how I keep my costs down feeding raw - I have a moderate freezer addiction and a serious meat hoarding problem. Oh, and you can buy beef suet at the store to mix in with chicken based meals for more fat if pork will be an issue.

http://www.happycritterpetfood.com/about-us.html


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## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

Anyone have any info or thoughts on

Glacier Peak Holistics Alternate Allergy

As an alternative? It's much cheaper


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Nope, do Nutriscan


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## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

Any reasons?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

oshagcj914 happy critter doesn't have a Long Island drop off, but I will check with some of my friends to see what they do for their meats. I also could probably go to one of the delivery sites in New Jersey myself somewhat economically.

homemadehitshow, I suspect that CharismaticMillie's reason for telling you to do a NutriScan is the same as mine: so that you have data/evidence for making a decision that really will benefit Teddy.


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## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

But neither of you are providing any reasons? I found a blog comparing the two and the conclusion there was that they each had pro's and cons but Glacier Peak was significantly cheaper and was better value. That person wrote many pages of details before making that recommendation.

I've also not been clear that I actually have 3 dogs :amen:


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

homemadehitshow said:


> But neither of you are providing any reasons? * I found a blog comparing the two and the conclusion there was that they each had pro's and cons but Glacier Peak was significantly cheaper and was better value.* That person wrote many pages of details before making that recommendation.
> 
> I've also not been clear that I actually have 3 dogs :amen:


Comparing what two? Comparing a food (Glacier Peak) to a test (NutriScan)? That is comparing apples to plastic wrap. Also a blog is a person's opinion piece, not actual data.

the reasons are the data generated by the testing being done.

And yeah I have three dogs and Millie has more than three, but we decided (along with plenty of other people) that spending the $300 per dog was worth it to get real physiological data about our dogs.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> oshagcj914 happy critter doesn't have a Long Island drop off, but I will check with some of my friends to see what they do for their meats. I also could probably go to one of the delivery sites in New Jersey myself somewhat economically.
> 
> homemadehitshow, I suspect that CharismaticMillie's reason for telling you to do a NutriScan is the same as mine: so that you have data/evidence for making a decision that really will benefit Teddy.


They have a Long Island delivery listed at the bottom as TBD and a 15 case minimum...maybe it's a new stop and they're waiting to see if there are enough orders? Might want to call. I know a raw feeder in RI, I'll see if she knows of any other resources in your neck of the woods. She's great about finding cheap/free stuff. I know she gets a lot of stuff from hunters and freezer cleanouts off Craigslist, although you have to be careful with Craigslist. I'll let you know if she has anything useful.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I chose Nutriscan instead of the Glacier Peak test because I don't really understand enough about the Glacier Peak test to be confident that it is legitimate. I understand the science behind the Nutriscan test. I don't really understand the energy scanning (they aren't even really using the term biofeedback correctly). The vibe I got was that their test is a way for them to sell their other products. That's just my opinion, though.

You CAN do elimination diets if you don't want to shell out money for testing but you want to rule out food sensitivity but I have done it before and it's a pretty big pain. To me it was worth the money to avoid the hassle.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I would choose the Nutriscan test over the Glacier Peak test because it is backed by double blind clinical trials to prove its efficacy. The science behind the nutriscan test is solid and is based on actual immunological reactions. The Glacier Peak test is an energy analysis (???) and does not have the science to back its usefulness.


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## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

lily cd re said:


> Comparing what two? Comparing a food (Glacier Peak) to a test (NutriScan)? That is comparing apples to plastic wrap. Also a blog is a person's opinion piece, not actual data.
> 
> the reasons are the data generated by the testing being done.
> 
> And yeah I have three dogs and Millie has more than three, but we decided (along with plenty of other people) that spending the $300 per dog was worth it to get real physiological data about our dogs.


aaah,

So there we go

*Glacier Peak Holistics Alternate Allergy Life Scan
*
Is a test. Look it up. They test for all that Nutriscan does and more but they do it on a Yes/No scale not a numeric one. They test hair and saliva. $85.

EDIT: This is the actual test http://www.glacierpeakholistics.com/alternative-allergy-testing-for-dogs.html


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## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

FireStorm said:


> I chose Nutriscan instead of the Glacier Peak test because I don't really understand enough about the Glacier Peak test to be confident that it is legitimate. I understand the science behind the Nutriscan test. I don't really understand the energy scanning (they aren't even really using the term biofeedback correctly). The vibe I got was that their test is a way for them to sell their other products. That's just my opinion, though.
> 
> You CAN do elimination diets if you don't want to shell out money for testing but you want to rule out food sensitivity but I have done it before and it's a pretty big pain. To me it was worth the money to avoid the hassle.


I don't quite understand. I think this is just a terminology thing because they test saliva and hair. It's got some solid reviews and in a comparison was rated better purely because it was roughly equal but cost so much less. 

Do you have any idea what/how the Nutriscan test is done. Given that they use the same saliva approach? Interested to know.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

homemadehitshow said:


> I don't quite understand. I think this is just a terminology thing because they test saliva and hair. It's got some solid reviews and in a comparison was rated better purely because it was roughly equal but cost so much less.
> 
> Do you have any idea what/how the Nutriscan test is done. Given that they use the same saliva approach? Interested to know.


The Nutriscan test looks for specific antibodies in saliva. The Glacier Peak test takes hair and saliva and evaluates their energy in response to various substances. It's not the same thing at all. I really don't get how an "energy analysis" of a hair or saliva sample would work. I would need to see a study to back that up.


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## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

FireStorm said:


> The Nutriscan test looks for specific antibodies in saliva. The Glacier Peak test takes hair and saliva and evaluates their energy in response to various substances. It's not the same thing at all. I really don't get how an "energy analysis" of a hair or saliva sample would work. I would need to see a study to back that up.


Gotcha. People do seem to have had solid success with it but it doesn't sounds like it's based in science the same way.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I looked at Glacier Peak (which I never heard of until you mentioned it). Here is my take on comparing the two. 

NutriScan measures salivary IgA and IgM quantitatively. These results indicate emerging/new sensitivities (IgM) and longer standing sensitivities (IgA). Those immunoglobulins are a direct measure of the individual's response to actual exposures. NutriScan is a part of Hemopet.org. Much of the work of Hemopet is not for profit and all of their clinical work is based in solid science with double blind controlled studies of the results and benefits of tests they offer such as NutriScan. NutriScan tests for 24 specific food items. The list of items tested for is available before ordering the test (in other words you know up front what you are "buying"). It is not allergy testing, but is instead testing for intolerance and sensitivity. Sensitization is the precursor to allergy, so avoiding foods that an individual is sensitive to early is a way to avoid full out allergic responses later on. The only "products" sold through Hemopet are clinical tests and clinical consults with Dr. Dodds.

By comparison Glacier Peak's website is a .com not a .org website. In other words they are a for profit enterprise as is clearly indicated by the vast array of products offered for sale. Virtually none of those products give much indication as to what they actually contain, nor do they seem to have evidence of scientifically based testing (as in double blind controlled studies). I see plenty of testimonials, but these are anecdotal accounts, not scientific evidence. As to the stress testing, I see that they test hair and saliva. In one of the FAQ's the question was asked as to whether the hair sample could be clipped off samples of hair (in other words with no follicles). The answer was yes it could be clipped hair. Clipped hair shafts are not living material. Hair is a protein called keratin and is produced by living cells in follicles, but the length of hair that grows is nonliving. This kind of hair sample can be tested for exposures to toxins like lead and mercury, but will contain no evidence of a food sensitivity or allergy. The Glacier Peak product page for the stress test says that the test kit includes a list of the things tested for, but I could not find any way to see that list in advance of purchasing.

Much of what Glacier Peak offers is based on Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). What NutriScan offers is based on is laboratory based scientific research into functional nutrition and nutrigenomics. The value of NutriScan is recognized by the fact that insurance will pay for NutriScan testing as part of responsible veterinary medical care. I am not opposed to alternative medical care techniques such as TCM, Ayurveda or other practices as adjuncts to science based health care (human and veterinary). However until those alternative practices undergo the rigors of scientific evaluation I would not rely on them as primary care. On that basis I would not use Glacier Peak testing as a primary decision making tool, but would consider it as a secondary source of information.


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