# Mini heads



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I had found a photo of what I thought looked like a really nice head on a Mini. I saved the photo to post here, and then I discovered that perhaps I DO know what a good Mini head is because I discovered that this puppy was at the Prince Albert Dog show on the weekend and got: one Group third, One Best Puppy in Group and THREE Best Puppy in Show. She is a puppy from Kandansk. 

Miniature Poodles

They do lots of testing and from my very amateur eyes, seem to have some really nice dogs.

Here is the puppy that did all the winning - Kandansk Legendary Storm.

Am I correct in saying that she has a nice head?


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Kai on this forum has a very pretty head.


----------



## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

I don't know what a correct head on a mini would be either, but I know _what I like_.
Will post a couple of photos here as others have commented oh his head in other threads.
Woulld actually be good to hear critiques!

Unless sleeping... by maryac58, on Flickr

Kai by maryac58, on Flickr

Poodle heads, large or small, I do believe they are the best of all. by maryac58, on Flickr

Oh those poodle faces... by maryac58, on Flickr
I love working with some of his head shots, its like fun art for me.


----------



## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Spoowhisperer your pictures are just gorgeous
Proper heads: 
eyes: oval shaped, dark and expressive
skull: moderately rounded, with a slight definite stop (ridge just over the eyes) muzzle length to stop and stop to occiput (bump on top of head) should be the same length. 
muzzle: long and straight, chin definite enough to not look snipey.

I am a novice at structure too, and have been studying all dogs.
Alysia Reichertz of Bellefleet Reg'd in Ontario has bred some beautiful minis. I have tried to attach a link to her girl champion webpage so you can study them.
Minigirls.html


----------



## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

That's probably my favorite thing about Kai - his head - it's soooooooo pretty!!!! Of course, the rest of him is gorgeous too!


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Can anyone tell me where I can find a picture of Kai or is Kairos him?

Yes, Lucy is my pet. She is not a show dog, but I have said all along that I preferred her face with hair. I am not saying she isn't a pretty dog, but that brown dog or whatever colour he is, Kairos, has a much more substantial muzzle than Lucy's. He is a very pretty dog. Its not so much his under jaw, even his top jaw is not pointed at the end. If you look at his muzzle - I mean the top part - not his under jaw, there is quite a distance between top and bottom. Its more square at the end as opposed to "pointy".

My younger shih-tzu has a terrible front. He stands with his left foot pointing outwards and his whole leg looks almost deformed. He can run and jump and do agility, but I like my groomer to leave the hair longer on his legs because it disguises this fault. 

Even though my dogs are not show dogs, I like them to look their best. I am convinced that Lucy's head is the reason why I don't want to shave her face. I have done it twice and both times I didn't like it.


----------



## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

Kairos is Kai. Or should I say Kai the gorgeous :biggrin:


----------



## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

My little girl Albi has a very nice head. That was pretty important to me in choosing a breeder, along with testing, because I see a lot of minis in my groom shop that are either way too refined and snipey, or they're coarse and short in the muzzle and look more like a bichon, or they're apple-headed, a big round skull with buggy eyes and a skinny muzzle that looks glued on.


----------



## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

most of the show minis around here have lovely heads- i haven't noticed one with out (i did see that kandask pup this weekend-- and was benched next to a herd of them- leveland poodles- and they all had lovely heads too 

That said- most breeders pick a good head on t heir show pick pup- heads are SUCH a huge thing now.


----------



## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

she's got two pups right now available (non show homes) and IMO the one on the right has a much nicer head altough both have good underjaw the one on the right isn't as snippy (as much as you can see in these photos Levenland Puppies


----------



## Mini-Mum (Oct 14, 2010)

From the AKC Poodle breed standard:

Head and Expression 
(a) Eyes-- very dark, oval in shape and set far enough apart and positioned to create an alert intelligent expression. Major fault: eyes round, protruding, large or very light.

(b) Ears-- hanging close to the head, set at or slightly below eye level. The ear leather is long, wide and thickly feathered; however, the ear fringe should not be of excessive length.

(c) Skull-- moderately rounded, with a slight but definite stop. Cheekbones and muscles flat. Length from occiput to stop about the same as length of muzzle.

(d) Muzzle-- long, straight and fine, with slight chiseling under the eyes. Strong without lippiness. The chin definite enough to preclude snipiness. Major fault: lack of chin. Teeth-- white, strong and with a scissors bite. Major fault: undershot, overshot, wry mouth.

Cricket has a beautiful eye and expression, and a very correct muzzle and chin.
Her skull is well shaped and well balanced to her muzzle. 
Her ears could be longer and lower set.


----------



## Standard (Aug 25, 2010)

I must say. Spoowhisperer, I have never been very fond of mini's as many are poorly bred, and do not look like a "miniature" standard. But good grief, Kairos must be the most beautiful mini I have ever seen. If I could find a mini like that I would snap it up in a second. Stunning!


----------



## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

*Mini-Mum*, Cricket really is a beauty! Love love her head!


----------



## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

Standard said:


> I must say. Spoowhisperer, I have never been very fond of mini's as many are poorly bred, and do not look like a "miniature" standard. But good grief, Kairos must be the most beautiful mini I have ever seen. If I could find a mini like that I would snap it up in a second. Stunning!


Know what? I never had considered a mini either, as the ones I knew (which weren't many) looked like little piggies. Short legged, long bodies, unattractive faces. I thought these were just the look of minis! But, when my heart dog died a year ago, I did _*a lot*_ of thinking as to if I would be ready for another dog, and what that dog would be. I found a breeder of nice miniatures near my cabin and made a few visits to see what a nicely bred dog would look like and I have to say my heart wrapped around the idea of a miniature! Kai's sire is what really sold me, gorgeous, and awesome personality. I spent a lot of time with him just sitting on the floor, playing and holding him. Boy did I ever study his head, because that is what attracts me to a dog. So, I was fortunate to get a puppy from him.
Here is a link to a page with a nice photo of his head, just scroll down a bit.
Poodle Puppies - Amity Valley Kennels

Thanks for the nice complement, he sure has been a treat to have in our lives.


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Which one is Kai's sire on that page. 

Yes NeVar, I wish I had known about Levenland before I bought a Mini. She has one or maybe two of Richard Bohannon's blues. Stryker - the sire of those two puppies - is an Aery dog. Too bad I don't want another puppy or I would have taken one of those. I thought they were blue, but I guess maybe they are silver. 

And NOW I can see that a good head on a Mini involves what I would call a muzzle/jaw that is "square" on the end rather than pointy.

As I said, I didn't know at the time why I didn't like Lucy with a shaved face, but now having studied the head photos that people have put on here, I realize that I did it unconsciously because it hides her pointy face. Same as leaving the hair long on Tyson's legs hides his wonky front!


----------



## sandooch (Jan 20, 2011)

Is Jackson Kai's sire? That was the one that looked most like him. They are all beautiful though.


----------



## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

Purley said:


> Which one is Kai's sire on that page.
> 
> Yes NeVar, I wish I had known about Levenland before I bought a Mini. She has one or maybe two of Richard Bohannon's blues. Stryker - the sire of those two puppies - is an Aery dog. Too bad I don't want another puppy or I would have taken one of those. I thought they were blue, but I guess maybe they are silver.
> 
> ...



Oops, forgot to say Kai's sires name, its *Frankie*. Another litter I considered waiting for was from the sire *Baker* He had a heavier bone structure, wonderful coat, very interesting pedigree, but it was Frankie that took my heart.


----------



## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

sandooch said:


> Is Jackson Kai's sire? That was the one that looked most like him. They are all beautiful though.


NO, Kai's sire is Frankie.


----------



## sandooch (Jan 20, 2011)

Frankie is very handsome as well. I can definitely see where Kai gets his good looks from.


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Is Kai brown? Its hard to tell from the photo - or maybe he is cafe au lait. But you are right, he is gorgeous. If I had a dog with a head like that I would shave it too!!


----------



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

*I think Fozzie's head is pretty good*

Inge Semeschin of Midnight poodles (and an AKC judge) told me Fozzie is quite attractive l with his head, something about having the slight indentation under the eye that is quite prized. 


Grubby Muzzle by FozziesMomSF, on Flickr

I'll take some pictures next Monday after he's back from the groomers for closer inspection.


----------



## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

FozziesMom said:


> Inge Semeschin of Midnight poodles (and an AKC judge) told me Fozzie is quite attractive l with his head, something about having the slight indentation under the eye that is quite prized.


Really? I had not heard that. My Albi is sired by one of Inge's dogs. I snapped a couple new photos of her face while I redid her topknot tonight. I did have Laura Berg from Alegria compliment her chin, though (was very frazzled to have her and my breeder stop into my groom shop in Dec to see her!).


----------



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

lavillerose said:


> Really? I had not heard that. My Albi is sired by one of Inge's dogs.



Fozzie's dam was one of Inge's dogs as well....so Fozzie and your Albi are related.  And Albi is lovely, I love the face. I can't tell if Albi is a girls name...


----------



## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

Thank you! She's a girl, yes. I got to travel to France last year, and I named her after my favorite city there.


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

It appears to me that the more like a smaller version of a nice Standard head a Miniature has -- the better it looks. A small refined snipy head doesn't seem to occur very much in Standards. It took me a while to analyse the heads and to realize that. Still, that is fine, I will keep a certain amount of hair on Lucy's head, particularly under her jaw, so it looks like she has a more desired look about her face!


----------



## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

Purley said:


> Is Kai brown? Its hard to tell from the photo - or maybe he is cafe au lait. But you are right, he is gorgeous. If I had a dog with a head like that I would shave it too!!


Kai is a silver beige. He just turned 10 months, and will be silver beige by the age of two.


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

spoowhisperer said:


> Kai is a silver beige. He just turned 10 months, and will be silver beige by the age of two.


I am curious, how can you tell that he will be a silver beige and not a cafe-au-lait at such a young age?


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I am wondering if you have shown Kai and if so, how did he do in the ring?

I love silver beige - its such a pretty colour - specially on such a pretty dog!


----------



## Jelena (Aug 20, 2010)

I find this discussion very interesting!

I've noticed that in USA and Canada there is more spoos in general and more good breeders of spoos to mini breeders. Here in Europe there are so many great breeders of minis I think much more than spoos - so here we say if you get a spoos head as good as minis it's the good thing . So If I may conclude if you have more great dogs in either size category there you'll find most beautiful heads as other things too  .

I wish any poodle size to be a POODLE as standard describes it, and when you see a picture of a dog I'd like you can't tell it's size judging just by picture, I hope I expressed my thoughts correctly  .


----------



## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

I think a big difference we see between standards and minis here in the U.S. is that minis are more likely to have that nice underjaw that a lot of standards are missing these days. I am speaking in both cases of well-bred show lines, and you rarely see a well-bred mini out on the street, although there are plenty of them here. 

For some reason at some point in standards, we started to think that long and lean was everything, and lean turned into snipey with no chin. If you look at older poodle books--even as recently as the early to mid-90s, you will see how heads have changed on standards and chins have disappeared. 

Jelena, what happened here in North America was that some great mini lines were shut down when PRA was a huge problem and there was no good test for it. The quality of minis suffered greatly and has never fully recovered. You do see some minis that are great examples of the breed, and can beat the best standard on any given day, but the depth of quality just isn't there. 

Here is an example of a lovely mini head IMO. In addition to the finish of chin and nice underjaw, I like the parallel planes of the muzzle (not wedge shaped). Too many standards are "down faced" and have Roman noses. 

Our Present

Here is an example of a standard who does have a nice underjaw (Afterglow Sugar Daddy):

Tim Flach’s Dogs | EveryDayer - Best of the Web every day


----------



## Jelena (Aug 20, 2010)

Oh that explains spoo 'domination'! Didn't know that! Tnx

I've seen a photo of Afterglow Sugar Daddy by T.Flach in a magazine without any details about dog, I wasn't sure was it mini or spoo, I remember I made a comment that if it's a spoo it sure has a head of a mini  and if it is a mini it has unbelievable body substance  (photo in the magazine was the one when he is in a stance). I like his head a lot!


----------



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Here are some pictures of Fozzie's head fresh from the groomers. Excuse any eye goobers, he has ongoing allergies so it's rarely clean there. 

A gallery is up here so you can see from all angles, but here's a good one of his profile:


Untitled by FozziesMomSF, on Flickr


Untitled by FozziesMomSF, on Flickr


----------



## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Purley It appears to me that the more like a smaller version of a nice Standard head a Miniature has -- the better it looks 



I was thinking this exact thought when I saw the pictures of Fozzie. He really does look like a "miniaturized" version of the standard.

(p.s....What a tail too!)


----------



## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

Oh yes, very nice profile! He is so handsome!
I just love seeing all these photos, hope people keep posting more!!!!


----------



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

truelovepoodles said:


> Purley It appears to me that the more like a smaller version of a nice Standard head a Miniature has -- the better it looks
> I was thinking this exact thought when I saw the pictures of Fozzie. He really does look like a "miniaturized" version of the standard.
> 
> (p.s....What a tail too!)


Thanks so much, I thought so too. His dam is from Midnight Poodles, I have his sire information on another post around here somewhere. Inge's protege did the breeding under her supervision and approval of the sire, whose owner she's known for many years. Both champions, OFA excellent, etc. 

So about that tail? Can someone tell me more? I got him that way...and I've grown to love "the sausage" as i call it. we're trying a closer clip this time. you'll see in some of the groomer pix they left the pom pom on it and then it looks odd. I think a tail like this looks best all one length, short or long. 

What do you think? is it normal? I'd never seen anything like it. 

PS thank you all for the nice compliments. I do think Fozz is pretty amazing looking but like all poodle mommas I'm biased--though I want to learn more about how to know what is standard and what is not.


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Fozzie* _does_ have a great looking head! And anyone who knows me already knows I worship Kai; his head, his eyes, his hair--all of him! I'd post a photo of Chagall's head but right now he's missing a HUGE section of his right ear fringe (happened yesterday on a hike) so he's in hiding; my call, not his!

This was a cool thread, very interesting!! Loved hearing what you had to say *Feralpudel*, you too* Jelena*!


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yes, Fozzie does have a nice head. I can't really put my finger on why I tend to like Standard's heads better -- its kind of like they are more substantial. Some minis have kind of "dished" cheeks where the Standards are more kind of solid.

If you look at the heads of all the dogs in Truelovepoodle's signature - they all have substantial heads -- "substantial" isn't really the word I am looking for but its the best I can come up with at the moment.


----------

