# Banning of cosmetic pet surgeries in Quebec, Canada



## Indiana

Not just in Quebec; it's illegal now to crop ears in BC too. One of my friends breeds Dobermans and she's quite upset about it. I have mixed feelings; we have all seen those over-cropped pitties and they look AWFUL! But i have been present when breeders cropped poodle puppies' tails and it's not a big deal. Over in an instant, puppies barely let out a yelp and then were put on mama to nurse; really they cried more for grooming a few weeks later. Not even comparable to what farm animals go through (de-horning, castrating, lip-tattooing and ear tagging ALL get a way bigger reaction that makes me cringe than tail docking little puppies). However as I understand it, it's only illegal for vets to do it. Many breeders do their own cropping and it's not illegal yet to show a cropped dog. But maybe that's on the way.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Thanks for this link. I went over and commented as PoodlesRock. None of this is simple and people need to understand that.


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## Caddy

Thank for posting Dechi, interesting, I had no idea it was illegal is seven provinces and not sure I believe it. I looked for your comment arreau but couldn't find it. I would be very interested to see what would happen in the show ring, if a couple of the top respected breeders showed dogs with full tails.


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## Summerhouse

Indiana - from what I've read about tail docking you are right. The nerves have not extended enough down the tail when it is done to cause a great deal of pain. Certain working breeds can still be legally docked in UK and I understand why it is done. 

However having seen what miniature schnauzers have to go through with ear cropping that is a different matter. It requires a very young puppy undergoing general anaesthetic and then has to have several weeks of "posting" the ears basically the ears bandaged up in required position for several weeks until they have set. I don't think it is necessary when it purely is cosmetic. It has been illegal in UK since around 1900s.


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## Countryboy

Alas... I'll never be able then to breed a Poodle with the Look of Eagles.


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## Caddy

Lol CB, your mind works in mysterious ways.


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## Dechi

Indiana said:


> Not just in Quebec; it's illegal now to crop ears in BC too. One of my friends breeds Dobermans and she's quite upset about it. I have mixed feelings; we have all seen those over-cropped pitties and they look AWFUL! But i have been present when breeders cropped poodle puppies' tails and it's not a big deal. Over in an instant, puppies barely let out a yelp and then were put on mama to nurse; really they cried more for grooming a few weeks later. Not even comparable to what farm animals go through (de-horning, castrating, lip-tattooing and ear tagging ALL get a way bigger reaction that makes me cringe than tail docking little puppies). However as I understand it, it's only illegal for vets to do it. Many breeders do their own cropping and it's not illegal yet to show a cropped dog. But maybe that's on the way.


From what I read, I understand it is legal for vets to do it, but only for medical reasons. It is illegal for anyone else to do it, for any reason.

I was also surprised to read that apparently 7 provinces have banned it ! Never knew about that.


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## Mfmst

Arreau, I couldn't find your comment either. Could you re-post it here?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Here is my comment on the article:

Reading most of these comments blows my mind. Standard Poodles are my breed and they historically have their tails docked and dew claws removed. We are told by the breed clubs what the dog is to look like. The breed standard for my breed reads " Tail 
Set on high, carried up, and may be docked. The tail set is distinctly ahead of the pinbone. Never curled nor carried over the back." The American breed standard reads " Tail straight, set on high and carried up, DOCKED of sufficient length to insure a balanced outline". Until the breed clubs change the breed standards. people will continue to dock to allow their dogs to be competitive in the show ring, otherwise you may have a perfectly wonderful specimen who is overlooked. And until it is illegal to show an altered dog, people will continue to find ways of having the necessary procedures done. Have any off the naysayers seen a broken tail, broken by getting caught in a door or wagging it and slamming it so hard against a wall that it breaks? THEN the dog has to have surgery to have the tail docked, being put at risk because of anesthesia and being is a great deal of pain that it would not have suffered if docked at 3 days old. Have you ever seen what happens when a dew claw gets caught on something and rips? It does not simply pull the nail out. It can tear the dogs entire leg open to the elbow. A lot of these procedures began with a practical purpose that still exists today.


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## zooeysmom

Summerhouse said:


> Indiana - from what I've read about tail docking you are right. The nerves have not extended enough down the tail when it is done to cause a great deal of pain.


Watch videos of baby puppies crying on Youtube and then tell me they're not in a great deal of pain. That's all I'm going to say.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

zooeysmom said:


> Watch videos of baby puppies crying on Youtube and then tell me they're not in a great deal of pain. That's all I'm going to say.


Think about who is making those videos and what their agenda is. We do our own tails and dew claws and can tell you that it is NOTHING like the anti docking videos I have seen. The babies are more upset at being taken away from their Mom for a few moments than they are upset at anything else happening to them.


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## Countryboy

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Here is my comment on the article:
> 
> Until the breed clubs change the breed standards. people will continue to dock to allow their dogs to be competitive in the show ring, otherwise you may have a perfectly wonderful specimen who is overlooked.


It's pretty much down to that on tail-docking... 'dems 'da rules. Pity...

I understand that the PCC allows/encourages natural tails now. Can the PCA be swayed???


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Countryboy said:


> It's pretty much down to that on tail-docking... 'dems 'da rules. Pity...
> 
> I understand that the PCC allows/encourages natural tails now. Can the PCA be swayed???


PCC does not encourage it, but it is tolerated in Canada. I think PCA might be persuaded, but in my lifetime? Not likely. And until docking is NOT accepted in the ring-period- and we are all on a equal playing field, people will dock, plain and simple.


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## patk

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Think about who is making those videos and what their agenda is. We do our own tails and dew claws and can tell you that it is NOTHING like the anti docking videos I have seen. The babies are more upset at being taken away from their Mom for a few moments than they are upset at anything else happening to them.


soundtracks are probably the most easily manipulated part of home video making. it's easy to cut out what you don't want and to add in what you do want.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

patk said:


> soundtracks are probably the most easily manipulated part of home video making. it's easy to cut out what you don't want and to add in what you do want.


Exactly. And not too difficult to squeeze the pup's foot or tail the right way to get the effect you want to promote your agenda. Everything is brand new to a 3 day old puppy, so they are going to react to just about everything. Honestly though, I believe their biggest issue on docking/ dew claw day is being away from the warmth and familiarity of Mom and siblings for a few minutes.


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## Dechi

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> PCC does not encourage it, but it is tolerated in Canada. I think PCA might be persuaded, but in my lifetime? Not likely. And until docking is NOT accepted in the ring-period- and we are all on a equal playing field, people will dock, plain and simple.


Arreau, since it is now illegal for breeders (themselves or not) to do it in Quebec, you think they are going to risk getting caught and keep doing it anyways ?


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## Caddy

I must say I love the full tail on a poodle, it's beautiful in my eyes, but I also don't think a 3 days old pup is in pain from the procedure. Obviously I don't know that for certain, but that is my opinion. I would love to see an exceptionally well bred poodle shown with a full tail 
- AND WIN, WIN, WIN!!!


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## MollyMuiMa

I can understand banning the cropping of ears as it is mostly a cosmetic procedure but tail cropping in many breeds is very necessary.........'tail wag trauma' is a very painful occurrence as are dew claws that are not firmly attached and get torn off! I love a beautiful tail on a dog, but some dogs are just not genetically gifted with one and it is less painful to have it 'cropped' at three days old, rather than to have it 'amputated' because of a severe injury at an older age! Saw a few of these injuries and the healing can be painful and long, and the dog can also become 'tail shy' and never again will let anyone near it's rear end! Sad when that happens!


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## Indiana

I have to admit, still love my poodles, but I'm in love with another breed. I have 2 Boston Terriers, and they are feisty, loyal to the death, and fight at a moment's notice if they don't feel right about something  They are also an all-natural breed. Mine are always breaking their dewclaws and it's traumatizing!!! (to me) I would certainly have them removed if I were a breeder. They are always getting caught on something in vigorous play, which is very painful!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Dechi said:


> Arreau, since it is now illegal for breeders (themselves or not) to do it in Quebec, you think they are going to risk getting caught and keep doing it anyways ?


I certainly do. I have not read it is illegal for anyone but a Vet to do it. But yes, I am sure a lot of dedicated show people will continue to do it. Like I said, if/when the breed clubs change the Standard of the breed and it becomes a faux pas to show WITH a docked tail, it will continue to be done.


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## Dechi

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I certainly do. I have not read it is illegal for anyone but a Vet to do it. But yes, I am sure a lot of dedicated show people will continue to do it. Like I said, if/when the breed clubs change the Standard of the breed and it becomes a faux pas to show WITH a docked tail, it will continue to be done.


It is illegal for everyone. Read this. Canada's top doberman breeder is very discouraged...

Quebec dog breeders decry ban on cosmetic surgeries to crop ears and tails: ‘I thought I was in a free country’ | National Post


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## maddogdodge

I'm from Australia and tail docking has been illegal here for 12 years! Ear cropping has been illegal for much longer, I can't find a date though. The only time I ever see dogs with docked tails is when they are imported or are over 12 years old! I've never met a dog with cropped ears before.

I have an Aussie Shepherd with a full tail who I think is gorgeous, I also know many Spoo's, Rottwilers, and Dobermanns with full tails, to me, that is how they're supposed to look. I also find it strange to see a Great dane with cropped ears... just looks wrong to me.

I know an Aussie Shepherd breeder who quit breeding when the tail docking ban came in... Bit extreme if you ask me! (especially considering they can be born with a NBT).

Removing the back dew claws is legal for a vet to do, and is usually done when the dog gets desexed... not sure what show people do when it comes to rear dew claws... I hate them though, they're a nightmare to groom around, especially when they're only hanging by a thin piece of skin!


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## fjm

There was a huge outcry in the UK when the tail docking ban came in (ear cropping has been illegal for over 100 years). Cries of the end of the world, etc, etc. Within a very few years the fuss died down, everyone got used to seeing dogs with full tails, and it is now the docked animals that look strangely deformed. It is still legal for a vet to dock pups intended to be working dogs, but no docked animal can be shown in the conformation ring. The forecast flood of tail injuries does not seem to have happened, and looking back it is hard to understand why banning was ever seen as controversial!


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## Dechi

I think banning is okay when the whole country does it and the ring also bans it. The problem in Canada is that Ontario and Alberta haven't banned, and the ring either. So that puts everyone from Quebec and other provinces that ban at a disadvantage in comparison with Ontario and Alberta, who don't.

Honestly, I don't know how breeders around here are going to cope. I am not sure they are going to risk the legal drama that now comes with cropping or docking. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out breeder started letting go of breeds that traditionnally require docking and / or cropping to concentrate on all natural breeds.

I think this decision was not strategic at all. It's going to have unexpected repercussions down the road.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

That is exactly the problem. Make it illegal to show with a docked tail and make it fair and even for all, and you will see the practice stop. While some breeders will relish the idea of not doing it, anyone who shows is at a definite disadvantage if some do and some don't.


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## Countryboy

I like a natural tail but no dewclaws. And really, except for tails, bans don't affect Poodles much. The other breeds it affects a lot. I love a Dobie with natural ears instead of that imperious Look of Eagles. But floppy ears on a Dobe??? Hahaha... no more scary dog. You get something that looks more like this playful little guy.


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## Indiana

Yeah for poodles the trend has been a very long docked tail for ages now so it won't take much to get used to it.


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## peccan

Most of what I have to say has been said, but one thing I just cannot understand is the "but full tails on this and that breed break a lot!"

*Why are you not breeding for stronger tails then?!*

It's *astounding* that a breed's response to a tendency for such weakness of structure in a natural limb is pre-emptive surgery! In my mind this is as misdirected as 'tacking' eyelids on Shar Pei puppies and the overall breeding of individuals and types that cannot jog, let alone sleep, normally.


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## CoffeeN'Cream

I xant speak as a breeder or someone who shows obviously, and do understand that change is very hard, but if so many other countries dogs are just fine natural then I'm sure when the US and all of Canada follows those dogs will be just fine as well. All the rules need to change so no one has an unfair advantage, but I think that's the only issue, especially since all the UK and Australian dogs have survived just fine with all their parts.

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk


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## Mfmst

I wish that the breed clubs were behind these bans. In my opinion, they are the ones who should be looking out for the health of the breed. I can't find a statement or a position on the poodleclubofamerica.org site If someone can find a position or a statement from PCC or PCA, I would be interested in reading.

Canadian breeders are really in an awkward situation. 7 provinces have banned, but two of the most populous ones have not. The Quebec ban doesn't take effect until 2017. I have to wonder how quickly judges will embrace the new silhouette too. They only seem to like three colors in the Poodle Rainbow... Very bumpy playing field.


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## MiniPoo

When something is controversial, like a ban on tail docking and ear cropping, the ban just won't pass on a national level. So proponents of the ban pass state or provincial laws instead. If the idea takes hold, then there will be support for a national law.

Canada sounds like it is in a difficult transition period and that there will eventially be a national law. Then the dog clubs will be forced to change their rules.

My mpoo Dakota has dew claws and they are protected by a bunch of hair in his bracelets. So I do not worry about him ripping or tearing them. His undocked tail is curlier than I would chose, but it is less likely to get damaged since it does not hang down.

I wonder if the US will ever have a state that bans docking and cropping.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

MiniPoo said:


> When something is controversial, like a ban on tail docking and ear cropping, the ban just won't pass on a national level. So proponents of the ban pass state or provincial laws instead. If the idea takes hold, then there will be support for a national law.
> 
> Canada sounds like it is in a difficult transition period and that there will eventially be a national law. Then the dog clubs will be forced to change their rules.
> 
> My mpoo Dakota has dew claws and they are protected by a bunch of hair in his bracelets. So I do not worry about him ripping or tearing them. His undocked tail is curlier than I would chose, but it is less likely to get damaged since it does not hang down.
> 
> I wonder if the US will ever have a state that bans docking and cropping.


If the US does not ban docking through PCA, docking in Canada will still happen because we buy and sell puppies back and forth and lots of Canadian breeders like to get an American championship on their dogs and vice versa.


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## Caddy

I've been googling tail docking and ear cropping laws in Canada, and I see that there are now 7 provinces that ban ear cropping but not much about tail docking. It seems BC has not banned tail docking just cropping. Does anyone else have more info on the banning of docked tails across the Canadian provinces? I'm very interested on where this is headed over the next couple of years, and the purchasing of a pup over what may be a transition period.


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## Countryboy

Caddy said:


> Does anyone else have more info on the banning of docked tails across the Canadian provinces? I'm very interested on where this is headed over the next couple of years, and the purchasing of a pup over what may be a transition period.


Ya, me too. Tho depending on the market they're breeding for, I'm not surprised that certain breeders will move to natural tails and some will continue to dock.

But having given up on pinning Tonka's ears together and creating the Look of Eagles Poodle, I've got a plan that will make millions! Muahaha!

A Poodle with a detachable tail.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

And you could make residual $$$$$$ by marketing toward kids with things like pin the tail on the Poodle games!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

If you agree breeders should have a choice, or do not appreciate being dictated to...

Application for review on tail docking position and ears cropping, from The OMVQ - Petitions24.com


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## Renai

People used to believe that the nervous system of neonates was too immature for them to feel pain - in both babies and puppies. We now know that that isn't just untrue, but that their immature nervous systems may cause them to suffer MORE from pain, NOT less.

It's easy to assume days old puppies don't mind too much when you see them docked since they just yelp then get quiet and suckle or sleep. That had me thinking it probably wasn't so bad, and I was disinclined to believe it. But now experts are saying this isn't evidence that they aren't hurting but that they likely ARE hurting. Their silence is a defensive measure and the suckling is a self-soothing measure as it releases endorphins. Sleeping is another self-soothing mechanism in baby animals.

There is evidence that the tail CONTINUES to hurt years into the dog's life, if not forever. I've also seen some nasty growths on tails that haven't healed right, and some people have to have their dog's tails fixed because they weren't cut just so the first time and caused problems including pain. That is NOT cool.

The data is in on tail injuries, and it's not near common enough to justify pre-emptive docking.

I'm not judging people who cut their dog's tails, change is hard, and I can't imagine how resistant I would be to the idea that I hurt my dog without knowing it. But the evidence is in. It's not up for debate, it is hurting our dogs. 

I won't be docking or removing dew claws on any litters I breed and I'm obviously upset that this will hurt their conformation prospects, but the breed clubs needs to get with the times. Conformation needs to be for the betterment of dogs, whenever it fails to do that, we have to impose change or conformation will cease to suit that purpose. The dog fancy is very conservative and resistant to change, but if it's going to survive into the next century it needs to adapt. Anyone who thinks docking will be legal in any western country in 15 years hasn't been paying attention to how the public's attitude toward pets has been changing and how animal politics and law have been moving. Fanciers should NOT be on the wrong side of history here if we don't want the public to think we don't have dog's interests at heart, and I believe that currently fanciers do have a monopoly on the promotion of many aspects of dog welfare, so I think this is important. 

Here are some of the things I've read about docking:

Cropping and docking are going away. Which side of history will your breed be on? | Ruffly Speaking

Repost by request: Cropping and docking part 2: Docking | Ruffly Speaking

Dog Tail Docking: Issues and Health Implications of Docking, whether on a Boxer or a Puppy

Studies Reveal Tail Docking in Puppies is Painful


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## poshpup

This is a good debate, I am neutral on the tail docking personal I prefer the docked look, but I have not researched enough to make an informed argument on weather it should be done or not. I plan on learning more ASAP. On the other hand I feel very strongly on the issue of dew claw removal and feel that this is not just a cosmetic procedure, I can not tell you the amount of traumatic injuries I have seen done to dew claws. I have been grooming for five years and most injuries to dew claws I have seen did not occur on the grooming table, just a few months ago in fact my aunt's beagle ripped his dew claw and a good chunk of leg off just playing out side it was awful. a lot of dew claws just hang on by the tiniest piece of skin.


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## Renai

Not all dew-claws are equal, that's for sure. I do think dogs deserve to have good, strong dewclaws, not just the kind that seem tacked on. That takes selection. Dogs use their dew claws when running, when climbing or descending slopes or objects, and when manipulating objects like bones. I had a malamute mix with good ones that got a lot of use out of them, and they were muscular, she could move them. They also leave them on racing greyhounds. They have paper thin skin that can be ripped by plants, so you'd expect them to take them off if they could make dogs miss races with any frequency or if they didn't help with running.


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## mamalion

I am inclined against tail docking, but I must say that I would remove dewclaws on any breed that requires heavy grooming. 

When I used to groom dogs for a living, I would find dewclaw nails grown into the flesh under heavy matts. Despite my care, dewclaws were always a concern when I was dematting. 

I know that no one on this list would neglect a dog so, but others do. I will be taking dewclaws off my puppies.


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## Renai

mamalion said:


> I am inclined against tail docking, but I must say that I would remove dewclaws on any breed that requires heavy grooming.
> 
> When I used to groom dogs for a living, I would find dewclaw nails grown into the flesh under heavy matts. Despite my care, dewclaws were always a concern when I was dematting.
> 
> I know that no one on this list would neglect a dog so, but others do. I will be taking dewclaws off my puppies.


That is a reasonable point. Sometimes I worry about trusting people to handle the hair alone.


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