# breeders keeping pups til 12wks vs. 8wks?



## fam6 (Apr 25, 2013)

We'll be getting our spoo puppy when he's 8wks old and im comfortable with that. But during my search last year i found some breeders preferred to keep their pups until 12wks while others, like ours, keeps them until only 8wks. One breeder said it was vital that the pups stay with his/her litter mates and mother until 12wks and another said that it is important for the pup to bond with it's forever family and get the socialization it needs starting at 8wks. What's your opinion and how much of a difference do you think it makes? I'm really just curious. Thanks!


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Most puppies are weaned well before 12 weeks of age. They've learned what they need for a good start as far as bite inhibition from litter mates. If they're eating on their own and are healthy and well adjusted, I prefer to get them at around 8 weeks, as the early critical socialization window closes at around 14-16 weeks and that only leaves me with a short time to socialize the puppy the way I like to socialize them. (thoroughly to all kinds of things most breeders don't have time for) My puppies were weaned at 5 weeks and scarfing down their own food just fine, rough play, sending and learning signals from each other well etc. I finished their bite inhibition training within a couple weeks...no scolding, just ending all attention for a moment and trying again. They learned very fast that to mouth ever so gently was okay (good for them to learn to regulate their pressure) but anything more ends all the fun. As far as bonding, I wouldn't worry about that aspect. Dogs bond with their people when they're adult dogs, for instance, that are rescued. 

So, after their first 2 sets of puppy shots, we were out and about, being reasonable about where and with whom they played. For instance, no pet stores, dog parks, rest stops...no place where a lot of unknown dogs that might not be healthy would likely be. It doesn't completely eliminate all risk of getting a disease but the risk is minimal. The risk of not socializing early is not even a risk. It's a known. Emotional well being.... confidence and developing "bounce back" (the ability to bounce right back after an initial startle)is of paramount importance to me. That's my .02.

I know how excited you are. Congrats! What fun you'll have.


----------



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I usually get my puppies at 8 weeks, but one dog was shipped to me from Washington to Chicago airport, where we picked him up. The breeder kept him till 12 weeks so he could better handle the experience. That dog bonded more to me than any other dog. So I think 8 weeks or 12 weeks, both can be ok.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

if you read the ian dunbar thread by lily cd re, i believe that's where she mentions that dunbar believes 6 weeks is the right age for puppies to go to their new homes. once upon a time this used to be the normal age for placement of puppies.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think it can also depend upon the size of the pups - toy breeders will usually keep puppies longer than breeders of standards.


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I prefer to follow Dr. Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol, so my mpoo got his first puppy vaccines at 9 weeks. He remained with his breeder for several days afterward to monitor for any possible adverse reactions. I was very comfortable taking him home then. I know some breeders elect to keep pups with their dams longer. 

Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | 2013 and 2014 Canine Vaccination Protocol - W. Jean Dodds, DVM 

Note: The following vaccine protocol is offered for those dogs where minimal vaccinations are advisable or desirable. The schedule is one Dr. Dodds recommends and should not be interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It’s a matter of professional judgment and choice.

9-10 Weeks Old:
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV (e.g. Merck Nobivac [Intervet Progard] Puppy DPV)

14-16 Weeks:
Same as above

20 Weeks or Older (if allowable by law):
Rabies

1 Year:
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV (optional = titer)

1 Year:
Rabies, killed 3-year product (give 3-4 weeks apart from distemper/parvovirus booster)


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

My girl Cammie just had a litter and we placed the pups at 9 weeks. My mentor and guide through this process believes that the extra week with mom and siblings is good for the puppy, so we waited until 9 weeks even though most breeders seem to let them go at 8 weeks. 

It was very interesting to see that in the last week, the puppies began to naturally separate from each other a little bit. It almost seemed like they were ready for life without siblings. Before 8 weeks, they would always sleep touching each other, sometimes in a big pile. But in the final week, I would often see some or all of them sleeping by themselves--in the same room as their siblings but not touching or on top of siblings. Their play also seemed to become more adult, flying around the yard after their momma. The pup that I kept is now 11 weeks. Based on my observation of him and the reports that I am getting from puppy buyers, I see no reason at all for waiting until 12 weeks. The pups are definitely mature enough to be forming bonds with their forever families. I have heard from all 4 of the new owners, and they all confirmed that the transition to the new homes was pretty easy. 

Of course, there may be reasons for a breeder keeping pups for 12 weeks or even longer (like evaluating a possible show prospect or just not being able to sell all the pups by 8 or 9 weeks). I would expect that there would be no problems with placing a 12 week old puppy, assuming that the breeder had provided good care for the pup including mental stimulation, socialization, housetraining, etc. Poodles can be successfully rehomed at any age, even as adults. But after going through the experience of raising a litter, I think 9 weeks is best.


----------



## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

I just got a tpoo and the breeder kept her for 10 weeks. In hindsight, I think it is the perfect time for a tpoo. She adjusted quickly and naturally.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I think 8-10 weeks is ideal. I sent most puppies home at 9 weeks, a couple at 8, and a couple at 12 (deciding between show prospects). Next time I will insist in no sooner than 9 weeks so I can more closely follow Dr. Dodds' protocol.


----------



## PoodleFoster (May 25, 2013)

patk said:


> if you read the ian dunbar thread by lily cd re, i believe that's where she mentions that dunbar believes 6 weeks is the right age for puppies to go to their new homes. once upon a time this used to be the normal age for placement of puppies.


Hi
In our county, you can't place a puppy before 8 weeks.


----------



## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

My breeder keeps them till 9 weeks for the same reasons peppersb mention above. The extra week is a benefit but longer than that really isn't.

Rick


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

PoodleFoster said:


> Hi
> In our county, you can't place a puppy before 8 weeks.


As it should be!


----------



## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> the early critical socialization window closes at around 14-16 weeks and that only leaves me with a short time to socialize the puppy the way I like to socialize them.


This worries me. My friend is getting a puppy soon and many trainers won't train the puppy until 16 weeks because of vaccines... is it okay to take the puppy out in public to socialize it? We are having a trainer come to the house who will start when we get her home at 8 weeks.


----------



## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

Jamie Hein said:


> This worries me. My friend is getting a puppy soon and many trainers won't train the puppy until 16 weeks because of vaccines... is it okay to take the puppy out in public to socialize it? We are having a trainer come to the house who will start when we get her home at 8 weeks.


I think you're going to get a variety of answers. My breeder was absolutely against taking Penny to public places before all the shots were finished. My friend with the Catahoula said her vet said the same thing. But my vet is a little more lenient. So I'm not sure what the "right" answer is.

Rick


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Jamie Hein said:


> This worries me. My friend is getting a puppy soon and many trainers won't train the puppy until 16 weeks because of vaccines... is it okay to take the puppy out in public to socialize it? We are having a trainer come to the house who will start when we get her home at 8 weeks.


YES!!!!! In fact it's important that you do!


----------



## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

Jamie Hein said:


> This worries me. My friend is getting a puppy soon and many trainers won't train the puppy until 16 weeks because of vaccines... is it okay to take the puppy out in public to socialize it? We are having a trainer come to the house who will start when we get her home at 8 weeks.


I think it's perfectly alright to take it out...... I'd even say it is important to take them out so they get used to different sounds and noises, traffic, people.... just be careful about it. 
In places where many dogs go, don't put the puppy down to the ground before it had it's vaccines...... in "clean" places it is fine to let him explore. 
You can also socialized it with friend's dogs that you know are up to date with their vaccines and are healthy in your or their house.... 

There is a reason why some of the vaccines are advised for a later age, the puppy still has some antibodies from it's mother so they are not as vulnerable as some would like to make out. An earlier vaccine would just interfere with them which would put the puppy actually more at risk.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

There are many puppy kindergarten or puppy pre-school classes that will allow puppies that have not yet had all of their shots. I’d look around. 

It is true that puppies between 8 and 16 weeks (before final puppy shots) are more susceptible to some diseases. But it is also true that puppies need on-going socialization, including interaction with other dogs and, if possible, other puppies. I think it makes sense to continuously socialize your puppy in puppy classes and with the dogs of friends and neighbors, but to avoid places where a lot of dogs that you don’t know might be peeing and pooping. I asked my vet what he thought about the risk of allowing my young puppy to interact with the dogs of friends of mine -- dogs that I know are in good health and fully vaccinated. He said that the risk would be very small.


----------



## fam6 (Apr 25, 2013)

Jaime, i have the same question. My breeder stresses socialization but also warns about waiting til after his vaccinations are complete. We live on a military base so the majority of people have animals and many walk them daily. We have many base events/activities that are outdoors and pets welcome. I was planning on using those as opportunities to help socialize him. I also wanted to go hiking this summer and of course take the puppy. What are the general do's and don'ts of socializing? I know to stay away from dog parks. Our neighborhood dog park is hardly used so it wouldn't be a good place for him to meet other dogs anyhow. Families always bring their dogs to the playgrounds in the neighborhood and on base so should i stay away from those areas? I don't want to keep him cooped up in the house and front yard all summer.


----------



## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

You might try having people over to your place if going places is a problem. Men, woman, kids, other dogs, puppies and people of different races. If guys come over make sure some have hats on. For some reason a lot of dogs don't like hats.

Rick


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Larger dogs do mature faster than small ones, but my toy poodle breeder does not allow her puppies to go until 12 weeks at the earliest. She allows her Dams to decide when to wean, and the earliest that they do that is 11 weeks. She has told me that if she ever had a Dam that weaned at 5-6 weeks, she would remove them from her breeding program, because "not every dog is meant to be a mother". 
My puppy nursed longer, and did not come home until almost 14 weeks, and she walked through the door entirely "bomb proof" - the most calm, well adjusted, social puppy that you could ever ask for. I know many people who have gotten puppies from my breeder from anywhere from 12 weeks to 10 months old (those that were held for show prospects), and every single one reports the most incredible temperaments in their poodles.
Given this, I don't really give much credibility to all of the theories about early socialization - I believe that the temperament is in the breeding. And also, given what the studies show on the befits of mother's milk for human health and brain development, I think it can only be a good thing that my puppy got all of those extra weeks of nursing from her Mama!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

PoodleFoster said:


> Hi
> In our county, you can't place a puppy before 8 weeks.


i am actually somewhat agnostic on there being a hard and fast rule - 6 weeks, 8 weeks, whatever. i think it depends on how good the breeder is at helping to socialize the dog. if there's a singleton, for example, what's the ideal length of time for the breeder to keep the puppy?

where many live there's a hard and fast rule about rabies vaccinations, too, and many who frequent pf are questioning those rules and making their own decisions about what is good for their dogs based on other expert opinions.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

patk said:


> i am actually somewhat agnostic on there being a hard and fast rule - 6 weeks, 8 weeks, whatever. i think it depends on how good the breeder is at helping to socialize the dog. if there's a singleton, for example, what's the ideal length of time for the breeder to keep the puppy?
> 
> where many live there's a hard and fast rule about rabies vaccinations, too, and many who frequent pf are questioning those rules and making their own decisions about what is good for their dogs based on other expert opinions.


Patk, I think you would feel much differently if you whelped and raised a litter of puppies and/or had a better understanding of the mental and physical development of a puppy. Or if you helped bring that puppy into the world and therefore felt entirely responsible for preventing any harm that might occur due to the puppy being so fragile at that age. At 6 weeks, a puppy is not mentally at its full capacity and it is physically much more fragile than a 7 or 8 week old. It is not ready to leave. By 8 weeks, the puppy's brain has matured to the point where it is capable of learning anything and everything that an adult dog can. While I do not condone puppies leaving before 8 weeks ever, a 7 week old puppy is dramatically different from a 6 week old puppy. At 6 weeks, a puppy is simply developmentally too immature.

Those who believe that rabies vaccinations should be done later are the same educated fanciers who understand that a 6 week old puppy is far too immature to leave for a new home.


----------



## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

Jamie Hein said:


> This worries me. My friend is getting a puppy soon and many trainers won't train the puppy until 16 weeks because of vaccines... is it okay to take the puppy out in public to socialize it? We are having a trainer come to the house who will start when we get her home at 8 weeks.


I brought Polly home at 7.5 weeks and she went with us the very next day to CarMax to help test drive our van.  If I hadn't taken Polly everywhere I possibly could as early and as often as I possibly could, I would have a VERY fearful,nervous puppy right now. I knew there was some risk of disease but as timid as Polly was as a new puppy, her risk of being a fearful, reactive dog was a lot higher. I took reasonable precautions and avoided the dog park until 4 months, but I took her to every store, event, etc. that would allow dogs many times a week. 
She started puppy class at Petsmart at 10 weeks. I think they allow pups as young as 8 weeks so she might want to look into that.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Larger dogs do mature faster than small ones, but my toy poodle breeder does not allow her puppies to go until 12 weeks at the earliest. She allows her Dams to decide when to wean, and the earliest that they do that is 11 weeks. She has told me that if she ever had a Dam that weaned at 5-6 weeks, she would remove them from her breeding program, because "not every dog is meant to be a mother".
> My puppy nursed longer, and did not come home until almost 14 weeks, and she walked through the door entirely "bomb proof" - the most calm, well adjusted, social puppy that you could ever ask for. I know many people who have gotten puppies from my breeder from anywhere from 12 weeks to 10 months old (those that were held for show prospects), and every single one reports the most incredible temperaments in their poodles.
> Given this, I don't really give much credibility to all of the theories about early socialization - I believe that the temperament is in the breeding. And also, given what the studies show on the befits of mother's milk for human health and brain development, I think it can only be a good thing that my puppy got all of those extra weeks of nursing from her Mama!


I think the breeding/genetics is extremely important. I also think early and continuing socialization is important. And, as Tiny Poodles mentioned, I don't think we should underestimate the importance of having a happy, secure, well-adjusted momma dog raising her pups in a secure environment with all of the support that she needs. I agree that moms should be able to choose when to wean their pups, and I hate to hear of breeders who force early weaning. I also think a momma dog should be free to come and go, nursing and cleaning her pups when she needs to and resting away from them when she is tired. A good momma dog will make all of the right decisions and her mothering will help to produce happy well adjusted puppies.

Speaking of nursing, Cammie nursed right up until the last pup left at 9 1/2 weeks. Towards the end, I don't think they were getting much nutrition, but both mom and pups seemed to enjoy it. Here's a video of Cammie nursing her 8 1/2 week old puppies. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jEgwdpdy7E

For standards, I think 8 weeks is OK, 9 weeks is best and 10 weeks or more is OK but not ideal. But the time table may well be different for toys or minis.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Patk, I think you would feel much differently if you whelped and raised a litter of puppies and/or had a better understanding of the mental and physical development of a puppy. Or if you helped bring that puppy into the world and therefore felt entirely responsible for preventing any harm that might occur due to the puppy being so fragile at that age. At 6 weeks, a puppy is not mentally at its full capacity and it is physically much more fragile than a 7 or 8 week old. It is not ready to leave. By 8 weeks, the puppy's brain has matured to the point where it is capable of learning anything and everything that an adult dog can. While I do not condone puppies leaving before 8 weeks ever, a 7 week old puppy is dramatically different from a 6 week old puppy. At 6 weeks, a puppy is simply developmentally too immature.
> 
> Those who believe that rabies vaccinations should be done later are the same educated fanciers who understand that a 6 week old puppy is far too immature to leave for a new home.


i am not questioning your choice as a breeder. i believe it is sincerely made on behalf of the dog. the fact is, however, that for many many years, pups were going to new homes at six weeks (and some still are). my personal view about that can't contradict that fact and the fact that so many people have memories of the great family dog that arrived in their homes as a six week old puppy. i also don't dispute tiny poodles' breeder's view about the age at which a toy poodle should leave for a new home. imo, there is obviously room for all kinds of views and reasons can be provided to support each. i understand that you don't feel that way, and that's okay, too. i would still recommend you as a breeder, but that would not preclude my saying that someone else who does not follow your practices has a great dog or has bred great dogs.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Those who believe that rabies vaccinations should be done later are the same educated fanciers who understand that a 6 week old puppy is far too immature to leave for a new home.


sorry, i forgot to respond to this. when speaking of choices re rabies vaccinations, i was not referring solely to breeders. there are members here with dogs that have reacted very negatively and who prefer not to vaccinate at all, and i can't blame them. i personally refuse to have my dog vaccinated for rabies any longer because except for a few minutes a day, he is almost always indoors. at 16+ he doesn't need something else added to his system that might spin his failing health out of control. in addition, the longer i am here, the more i realize there are many dogs from good breeders with allergies of various kinds. we are all constantly seeking the best for our four-footed family members, and sometimes the choices are not as black and white as some would hope. it would be very easy for all of us to have the perfect dog if they were.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

patk said:


> sorry, i forgot to respond to this. when speaking of choices re rabies vaccinations, i was not referring solely to breeders. there are members here with dogs that have reacted very negatively and who prefer not to vaccinate at all, and i can't blame them. i personally refuse to have my dog vaccinated for rabies any longer because except for a few minutes a day, he is almost always indoors. at 16+ he doesn't need something else added to his system that might spin his failing health out of control. in addition, the longer i am here, the more i realize there are many dogs from good breeders with allergies of various kinds. we are all constantly seeking the best for our four-footed family members, and sometimes the choices are not as black and white as some would hope. it would be very easy for all of us to have the perfect dog if they were.


I also was referring to dog owners in general. Since it is a dog's owner who is ultimately responsible for having the dog/puppy they bring home vaccinated for rabies. Usually the people who are well educated on the pros, cons, and risks associated with vaccinations, often taking a minimal vaccination approach, are the same people who are seeking a responsible breeder. And a responsible breeder keeps puppies until it is safe for them to go home, and, while it may appeal to you to have a puppy come home and start adjusting to your lifestyle at an extremely young age, 6 weeks certainly is not a safe age to be sending puppies home. 

Responsible breeders are still breeding living, breathing creatures, and - yes - things like allergies can still pop up even with the most careful breeding practices.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I also was referring to dog owners in general. Since it is a dog's owner who is ultimately responsible for having the dog/puppy they bring home vaccinated for rabies. Usually the people who are well educated on the pros, cons, and risks associated with vaccinations, often taking a minimal vaccination approach, are the same people who are seeking a responsible breeder. And a responsible breeder keeps puppies until it is safe for them to go home, and 6 weeks certainly is not a safe age to be sending puppies home.


i guess you can debate that last point with ian dunbar, who certainly knows more about puppy development than i do.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> i guess you can debate that last point with ian dunbar, who certainly knows more about puppy development than i do.



I have only read an article or two on the internet of his, but that is it, so let me ask you - does he have anything more than theory? Has he done controlled, double blind studies to prove his theory? Because I have a poodle that I got at 16 weeks, and a poodle that I got at 14 weeks that disprove his theories, and I know a lot of others who got their poodles from the same breeder, from 12 weeks - 9 months old that would also disprove his theory. 
Nature vs Nurture, the eternal question CAN be tested in a scientific way - has he? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny, all animals have an early critical socialization window. It's a built in safeguard in nature. Without it, no one could survive. Here's why: An excerpt I typed out a long time ago and retrieved it: From Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash. A very good explanation. It's well past being a theory. There is all kinds of science behind it. Of course, animals differ in their socialization windows. Wolves are VERY different from puppy dogs. Anyhow, I highly recommend this book. The whole thing is chalk full of good info. 



> "What is Socialization
> 
> Socialization means habituation, or getting used to environmental elements through exposure to them. In a natural setting, it is highly adaptive to increase distance between yourself and anything unusual and then to proceed with extreme caution when approaching. This is because unusual things are potentially very bad news. (They certainly aren’t necessary for survival because you’ve made it this far without them.) Animals adhere to rules governing social distance. So do we, if you think about it. We tolerate someone standing right against us in a crowded elevator but would be instantly spooked by the same person standing that close if we were the only two in the elevator. Someone can walk up and stand right behind you if you’re in a line-up at the grocery store, but someone doing exactly the same thing when you’re in the driveway washing your car is a whole other story. We can also, like other animals, be very weird about being touched.
> 
> ...


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

tp, lily cd re is the one with the info. just so you know, dunbar is also questioning the conventional wisdom about fear stages in puppy/dog development.

as for nature vs nurture - many of us got our dogs well past the so-called best time for socialization and have managed to shape behavior so that our dogs are acceptable in human society. my dog came to me at five months of age and i'm not saying he became the cary grant of dogs, but he is okay in human society. rehomes and rescues that have become great family dogs are also out there in volume, and i wouldn't be surprised at all if many of them were sent out into the world at six weeks of age. if there were an absolute about puppy socialization, i don't think that would be the case. 

now i'm conservative about things like this, so i am generally willing to go along with today's conventional wisdom. but i'm not willing to close my mind to the possibility that yesterday's conventional wisdom may be just as valid as today's.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

patk said:


> i guess you can debate that last point with ian dunbar, who certainly knows more about puppy development than i do.


I think that Ian Dunbar is a great resource, and I would recommend him to anyone getting a puppy if for no other reason than his stress on early socialization. I think he does a great job of bringing to light many important aspects of raising a well rounded companion.

In his book, a few of his suggestions are great in theory, and in practice a bit impractical, but they still drive home an important message to the reader. Take for example, his suggestion that all puppies come home knowing the following commands: 

_"he should happily and eagerly come, follow, sit, lie down,
and roll over when requested. If these are not so, either your
puppy is a slow learner or he has had a poor teacher. In either
case, look elsewhere."_

Do we really take this to mean that an otherwise great 6 week old puppy that hasn't learned to roll over should be passed up on that account? I should hope not! But it educates the reader that a breeder should have worked extensively with each puppy individually, and that they should have already been introduced to the concept of basic training.

While he does make mention to bringing home a 6 week old puppy if you are an exceptional puppy raiser and are acquiring a puppy from a less than exceptional breeder who may not properly socialize the puppies, he also says the following, clearly acknowledging that 8 weeks is still within the ideal time to bring home a puppy: 

_"Eight weeks of age has long been accepted as the optimal
time to acquire a new pup. By eight weeks, sufficient dog-dog
socialization has taken place with mother and litter mates to
tide the puppy over until he is old enough to safely meet and
play with other dogs in puppy class and dog parks. Yet the
puppy is still young enough to form a strong bond with the
members of his new family."_

His reference to 6-8 weeks (8 weeks at the latest) being the ideal window to bring a puppy home is based almost entirely from the point of view of socialization and his theory that extensive socialization at this young age has the greatest chances of a well rounded companion. 

Patk, I think it is very difficult to argue with the theory that the younger a puppy begins the process of being socialized to *your* lifestyle, the easier and quicker that puppy will fit successfully in to your lifestyle. However, in practice, we have to consider other factors such as the vulnerability of a puppy to disease. This is why 8 weeks has really been considered, for a long time, the most ideal time to bring a puppy home, when considering all factors. Of course, now with the limited vaccination protocols some breeders choose to keep puppies longer. I can understand wanting to bring a puppy home at 8 weeks as opposed to 9, 10, 11 or 12 in order to get the process of socializing started. However, for some people who really believe in the benefit of the ideal timing of vaccinations in order to minimize the number of vaccinations needed, choosing a breeder you can trust to properly socialize until 9-10 weeks when the vaccines can be started may be ideal. The truth is, we have new research on when and how vaccines are most effective, and when the immune system reaches maturity. Good breeders are constantly learning, evaluating new information, and making informed decisions to do what is best for the puppy - taking into account all of the many factors.

I am of the belief that it is important to get puppies into their new homes as early as possible to start the process of socialization. To me, that is around 8-9 weeks. I also believe that a breeder really needs to put a lot of work into socializing the puppies. It is HARD work - time consuming.


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Sunny's breeder told me she likes to keep the pups until after they get their first shots to be sure there are no adverse reactions, and I think that's at least 12 weeks and probably a little longer and agree with the protocol Chagall's Mom posted. I don't like when pups are taken too soon -- . I am always surprised to hear when people get pups really really early. 

Even Jake, my last mini poodle, came to me at 12 weeks.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

cm, no argument from me. it's just that i think people face choices and one person's choice may not be the best one for someone else. clearly dunbar has a lot of experience and from what you've said, he does not have a hard minimum 8 weeks rule. breeders who do out of concern for their dogs and who have the determination to do the work on behalf of the dog certainly deserve respect. if they're not going to do the work, though, i'd rather see the puppy go to a good home earlier.

the fact is, however, that my personal choice is to get an adult dog - preferably a retired show dog - because the chances of knowing more about the dog's health and temperament are so much greater. of course i am prejudiced because my retired champion female lowchen was such a great dog. we all have our druthers, i guess.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Tiny, all animals have an early critical socialization window. It's a built in safeguard in nature. Without it, no one could survive. Here's why: An excerpt I typed out a long time ago and retrieved it: From Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash. A very good explanation. It's well past being a theory. There is all kinds of science behind it. Of course, animals differ in their socialization windows. Wolves are VERY different from puppy dogs. Anyhow, I highly recommend this book. The whole thing is chalk full of good info.



PB, while I agree that What Donaldson says is logical, dogs, especially purebred dogs are not a nature made creature, not only their looks, but their "personalities" have been carefully selected for not by nature, but by man, so I would need to see sound scientific studies before I believed that the theories are true for dogs overall. They certainly have not been so in my personal experience. And you know, us humans have a habit of repeating what has been successful in them in the past, and are not easily convinced otherwise without proof 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> His reference to 6-8 weeks (8 weeks at the latest) being the ideal window to bring a puppy home is based almost entirely from the point of view of socialization and his theory that extensive socialization at this young age has the greatest chances of a well rounded companion.



I just spent the last half an hour searching the internet for any quote from Ian Dunbar saying that a puppy should go to a new owner at 6 weeks....... all I found was his advice on socialization - where he actually is placing some of the responsibility for socialization on the breeders. He says that a puppy should meet at least a 100 people before the age of 8 weeks - and a breeder is responsible for that. 

Dog Breeders: Don’t Produce Lemon Puppies | Some Thoughts About Dogs

Nowhere did I find a public quote from him advising to send such young puppies to their new homes.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

http://www.poodleforum.com/23-gener...an-dunbar-seminar-workshop-4.html#post1203306


----------



## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

That is not an actual quote from him........ that's just hearsay  

I was looking for a proper public quote/interview/article which he actually signed! 

All he does is stress the importance of early socialization, and actually places the responsibility on the breeders..... nowhere did I find a quote from him saying that the pups should go to their new homes at such young age.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Wild Kitten said:


> That is not an actual quote from him........ that's just hearsay
> 
> I was looking for a proper public quote/interview/article which he actually signed!
> 
> All he does is stress the importance of early socialization, and actually places the responsibility on the breeders..... nowhere did I find a quote from him saying that the pups should go to their new homes at such young age.


most of us here, i think, find lily cd re to be highly credible as someone who does not distort what she has heard or seen, especially as she is involved in dog training and intends to practice it as a career upon retirement from service as a university professor. comes with being a trained scientist. those who don't find her so are free not to do so. no one would be surprised.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Ian Dunbar discusses when to bring home a puppy on p. 36-37 http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/BEFORE You Get Your Puppy.pdf


----------



## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Ian Dunbar discusses when to bring home a puppy on p. 36-37 http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/BEFORE You Get Your Puppy.pdf


Thank you. 

It is though as you quoted in your previous post 

He does not advice to take home young puppies as a rule..... only if you are really experienced and you feel that a breeder is not...


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Wild Kitten said:


> Thank you.
> 
> It is though as you quoted in your previous post
> 
> He does not advice to take home young puppies as a rule..... only if you are really experienced and you feel that a breeder is not...


I did quote him in my previous post.


----------



## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I did quote him in my previous post.


I know.... I was just looking for some quote of him suggesting 6 weeks as a rule..... as it has been suggested earlier.... 

In this quote it is rather seen an exception than a rule.

In most articles I found from him, he places the responsibility of early socialization on the breeders and the age of puppies going home 8 weeks. 

Unless you are a really experienced dog owner, most people (especially the first time dog owners) wouldn't even know where to start socializing the pups, bringing them home too young will just result in dogs with poor bite inhibition and a poorly socialized pup anyway....


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Wild Kitten said:


> I know.... I was just looking for some quote of him suggesting 6 weeks as a rule..... as it has been suggested earlier....
> 
> In this quote it is rather seen an exception than a rule.
> 
> ...


Agreed. And in the PDF I linked, he states that bringing a puppy home at 6 weeks may be best if the buyer is experienced and the breeder is inexperienced, irresponsible, and will not be properly socializing the puppy. But why would you buy from a breeder like this? He alludes to this as well.

But then Lily mentions in her summary of his seminar that he said as early as 6 weeks and no later than 7 weeks. This, as a breeder, is concerning. At 6 weeks, a puppy is usually still nursing. I believe, as do many breeders that I respect, that it is best to allow the dam to choose when wean the puppies. In standards, this would typically be closer to 8 weeks. In toy breeds, generally later. Not to mention, a toy puppy going home at 6 weeks is at serious risk for hypoglycemia. This clearly trumps the benefit that a puppy might get from being socialized in his new home early on. A responsible breeder will keep the puppy with her until it is safe to place the puppy, and work on handling and socializing in the meantime. Of course, I already mentioned the vaccine issue in my previous response. While a puppy could be vaccinated prior to 8 weeks of age, it certainly isn't in the best interest of the puppy's health.

As I said in an above response, I think Ian Dunbar has some really important messages to share and is a great resource. However, I think it is also important to keep in mind that his opinion is only one opinion of many and that it would be wrong to give it too much credence.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Wild Kitten said:


> I just spent the last half an hour searching the internet for any quote from Ian Dunbar saying that a puppy should go to a new owner at 6 weeks....... all I found was his advice on socialization - where he actually is placing some of the responsibility for socialization on the breeders. He says that a puppy should meet at least a 100 people before the age of 8 weeks - and a breeder is responsible for that.
> 
> Dog Breeders: Don’t Produce Lemon Puppies | Some Thoughts About Dogs
> 
> Nowhere did I find a public quote from him advising to send such young puppies to their new homes.



Timi met maybe 10-15 people before she was 14 weeks old, and she fears nothing and nobody ( except for the Vet - they always seem to know from the moment that they walk in the door that there is something to be worried about there).


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i have no idea how many people my dog met before he became part of my household at 5 months of age, but i suspect it wasn't even 15 and he was not fearful of people. he was and still is, however, an introvert - but has never feared the vet. i have learned to accept that dogs, like people, do have personality differences that are not always predictable. i kind of like the fact that they are individuals and have quirks.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I read years ago a useful tip about making lots of social visits to the vet's office, for a quick weigh in and a treat, and fuss from the staff if they have time (and they nearly always make time for puppies!). It is important to consider infection risks, of course, but it is something I did with mine as soon as it was safe and that I have continued to do with them as adults. They think of the vet as an exciting place with treats, where very occasionally something unpleasant happens which is swiftly made better with chicken...


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

We brought Lily and Peeves home when they were each 7 weeks old. I think for a larger puppy especially earlier is better so they are with you for that critical early socialization.

If the breeder wants to keep pups longer then they really need to attend to the socialization very positively, lots of people and handling. They should also house break the pups.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

A good breeder has puppies started on house breaking the moment they can toddle around. The breeder will be working to set a good foundation for the dog with socialization and correct handling. This foundation should include early house training, handling (can I touch teeth, toes, testicle, tummies etc) grooming, exposure to a variety of terrains, early training - a breeder I respect very much has all of her puppies started on retrieving and basic obedience), and yes, socialization with a number of different people. 

Ian Dunbar can only dream about getting a puppy that has been started like this! If a breeder is just tossing the puppies out in the yard, or keeping them in a pen in the garage, why are you buying from them anyway?


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

fjm said:


> I read years ago a useful tip about making lots of social visits to the vet's office, for a quick weigh in and a treat, and fuss from the staff if they have time (and they nearly always make time for puppies!). It is important to consider infection risks, of course, but it is something I did with mine as soon as it was safe and that I have continued to do with them as adults. They think of the vet as an exciting place with treats, where very occasionally something unpleasant happens which is swiftly made better with chicken...



Well that is a good theory, but that is all Timi's first visit was - treats and meeting people ( I came armed with treats to slip to everyone), and yet the moment that we walked in the door, she began to tremble - I really think that they must "smell the fear" in there, because a NYC Subway at rush hour does not phase this girl. Oddly though, when she was in the ICU at the emergency vet, she seemed unfazed - and she had lines put in three out of 4 legs, and an E collar! Maybe it was because there was only two other dog patients, and they seemed pretty relaxed, the rest were cats, so she was not picking up on fear from other animals. 
Both she and Tangee have vet appointments next week, but I am taking them separately so she does not pick up on Tangee's stress.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Timi met maybe 10-15 people before she was 14 weeks old, and she fears nothing and nobody ( except for the Vet - they always seem to know from the moment that they walk in the door that there is something to be worried about there).
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


As part of my socialization plan, I always visited various vet offices quite frequently with my puppies to get a weight and a cookie, a little pat from the receptionists. (I haven't done as much with these Poodles as dogs in the past) You should have seen little Chulita when I took her to the vet's. She thought we were going to have a party. Her tail would wag a mile a minute and she couldn't wait to go see the girls behind the desk. She strained to get out of my arms and into theirs. lol. It was really important with my Dobe. He let the vet or anyone do anything with him...no worries. And these dogs I have now too, think it's cocktail hour with appetizers and some fun chit chat. If they get to go to the vet's and not have any painful procedures done, they don't have to associate it with a worrisome time.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am sure that they can pick up on the smells, and also on the noises - I have sometimes left quickly if there is a cat or dog howling while waiting to be picked up... Frequent visits whe re nice things happen do seem to help, though.


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't claim to know a thing about this subject. But I will say Pablo is generally a mean little dog. He is just a grump. But he was raised in a vets office and would stay behind the counter and greet people and dogs when he was young. He did it for the first 7 years of his life, off and on. I always thought we would have to stick with that vet because there was NO WAY he would let another vet examine him.

I took him to a new vet a few weeks ago. He walked in like he owned the place. He trotted right behind the counter and said "hi" to the girls that worked there. In a normal situation he would growl and bark. Then he wanted to stay back there, very happily I might add. 

He let the vet examine him and wagged his tail the whole time and did tricks for cookies. He thought it was party time. 

I dont' expect anyone could have their dog spend as much time at a vets office as Pablo did, but you CAN make them love it. Now if that same vet tried to pet Pablo at any other place he would probably get snapped at. I guess to Pablo, the vets office is his happy place! lol

BTW, Misha trembles and shakes, but the new vet has some awesome cookies and by the time we leave she is doing tricks and begging too. I think eventually she will like it.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

It is funny how they are all individuals in what they associate with the vet's office. I have admittedly never taken my dogs to the vet for any reason other than needing to go to the vet. That said, Millie is practically obsessive about wanting to jump onto the elevated scale/table in the exam room because she has often gotten treats while being on the table. She can hardly wait for it to be lowered before jumping on!

Of course, this is the same girl that literally jumped onto the conveyor belt at PetsMart while I was checking out once because she has also associated check out counters with treats! I literally had tears streaming down my cheeks I was laughing so hard.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> It is funny how they are all individuals in what they associate with the vet's office. I have admittedly never taken my dogs to the vet for any reason other than needing to go to the vet. That said, Millie is practically obsessive about wanting to jump onto the elevated scale/table in the exam room because she has often gotten treats while being on the table. She can hardly wait for it to be lowered before jumping on!
> 
> Of course, this is the same girl that literally jumped onto the conveyor belt at PetsMart while I was checking out once because she has also associated check out counters with treats! I literally had tears streaming down my cheeks I was laughing so hard.


LOL! What a kick!

It sounds like Millie has a stupendous temperament. Some of these areas where they're not_ as _socialized to something as another dog, but are like Millie, I think the temperament is compensating for it. 

My little Poodles have such excellent temperaments, I have found that I've socialized them in a less global way as some past dogs and they do just great in new situations. It's best not to take chances though, because you never know what the puppy is going to be like. But yeah, some need more socialization, more _pro-active_, hard work than others. I wouldn't have dreamed to leave it up to chance with my Doberman. That's a breed that needs more socialization than some other ones.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> LOL! What a kick!
> 
> It sounds like Millie has a stupendous temperament. Some of these areas where they're not_ as _socialized to something as another dog, but are like Millie, I think the temperament is compensating for it.
> 
> My little Poodles have such excellent temperaments, I have found that I've socialized them in a less global way as some past dogs and they do just great in new situations. It's best not to take chances though, because you never know what the puppy is going to be like. But yeah, some need more socialization, more _pro-active_, hard work than others. I wouldn't have dreamed to leave it up to chance with my Doberman. That's a breed that needs more socialization than some other ones.


Mil is wonderful. She's my heart dog and I am constantly reminding myself to cherish every moment with her because there will never be another Millie. I got her at 10 weeks and she was the dog I "learned" on. Not that I'm not still learning all the time, but she was my first puppy that I raised myself - so I was a complete blank slate! All I knew when I got her was to find health tested parents and to visit before committing.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

My breeder said he wouldn't give his puppies away _necessarily_ at 8 weeks old. He said something about my experience with dogs and some of the breeds I've had, all the puppy rearing etc etc that he didn't have a problem with it. Plus, his puppies were all perfectly healthy and robust, even wee Maurice. The mothers had had enough of them and were ready for them to go. lol. They were wonderful mothers but the apron strings were cut. He told me if I wanted, he'd keep them another couple weeks...it was my choice. So, I snatched them up and began my teaching them and so forth.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well that is a good theory, but that is all Timi's first visit was - treats and meeting people ( I came armed with treats to slip to everyone), and yet the moment that we walked in the door, she began to tremble - I really think that they must "smell the fear" in there, because a NYC Subway at rush hour does not phase this girl. Oddly though, when she was in the ICU at the emergency vet, she seemed unfazed - and she had lines put in three out of 4 legs, and an E collar! Maybe it was because there was only two other dog patients, and they seemed pretty relaxed, the rest were cats, so she was not picking up on fear from other animals.
> Both she and Tangee have vet appointments next week, but I am taking them separately so she does not pick up on Tangee's stress.


do you think timi could have been picking up your stress that first time? my own dog has had a few unhappy moments at the vet and still enters the door willingly. i don't give treats at the vet's and neither does my vet. the one time my dog showed serious distress was when i let the techs take him to the back room to draw blood. when he came back out, he was upset with me for abandoning him - he stayed as far away from me as possible on leash and refused to look at me. the next time i held his chin when blood was drawn and told him it was okay. ever after, he was fine with the techs taking him to the back room and drawing the blood there.


----------



## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

I got Luce from my neighbors who had an unexpected litter. I met the pups at 5 weeks old and I just gravitated to Luce. She was the smallest in the litter - about 1/3 the size of the others. The neighbor let me take her home to meet Glenn and she would be back in a while to get her. Luce slept a lot in our arms at 5 weeks. At 6 weeks we puppy sat for her in our home for 10 hours while the neighbors went to work. Yes, there was a difference from the previous week, but I wouldn't have dreamed of keeping her at 6 weeks. She was still quite small and hadn't been weened yet.

The following week we had her again for the same time and there was a difference in the growth - size and emotional.

The pups had their first set of vaccines a few days later. The neighbor went to visit her Mom in another state and took the pups to the vets office where her Mom worked. It was a car trip about 8 hours each way! She said the dogs and pups did great.

I took her for good at 8 weeks and 1 day old, I had her in puppy training the next day! I was a small group class - 9 week old Lab/Shepard mix and a 14 week husky (he was HUGE!! LOL) Luce was right there with the other pups wanting to play! All 2lbs 4oz of her lol Of course she was the star of the class 

However, I thought she didn't quite learn enough puppy manners from her parents or siblings, so I made arrangements to have play dates with Mom and Dad. The neighbor had told me Luce would disappear and then come out of hiding so she may not have had as much playtime with her litter mates since she was so much smaller they they. With Mom and Dad?? They loved it!! Luce even tried to get another drink from Mom one time LOL You could tell she was thinking "What is this little dog trying to do?? Get away! I don't have anymore!!"

I took her to the vets office for a happy visit once a week to get weighed, for the first 5 months or so and still bring her in occasionally.

I can't say if it was nature or nurture, this is my first dog I have raised - all others where family dogs when I was a child. Luce is assertive, was a bit pushy, loving, independent, friendly, gentle, a bit kooky, and I can't imagine life without her. 

Could she have used more time with Mom and Dad?? Since she was so much smaller then the others (at 8 weeks she grew to only 1/2 their size) I would say yes so she could learn more control with nipping when she was a pup.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> A good breeder has puppies started on house breaking the moment they can toddle around. The breeder will be working to set a good foundation for the dog with socialization and correct handling. This foundation should include early house training, handling (can I touch teeth, toes, testicle, tummies etc) grooming, exposure to a variety of terrains, early training - a breeder I respect very much has all of her puppies started on retrieving and basic obedience), and yes, socialization with a number of different people.
> 
> Ian Dunbar can only dream about getting a puppy that has been started like this! If a breeder is just tossing the puppies out in the yard, or keeping them in a pen in the garage, why are you buying from them anyway?


I think Ian would be very happy to see more breeders doing as you do. Unfortunately there are those that don't come close and also sadly too many folks who will buy those pups since they are unwilling to invest in a well bred puppy whose breeding and early life with the breeder was well thought out. 

I am at a trial this weekend and one of my friends who has very well bred spoos just adopted a rescue spoo pup of just over 10 weeks old. This pup came from a hoarding breeder with over 20 adult dogs. The person who bought the dog lives in an apartment and the pup was barking all day long so her land lord told her to get rid of the pup or to move. The woman tried to return the pup to the breeder (who never answered or returned her phone calls). She turned the pup over to rescue. My friend thinks the pup has potential (she was never abused) but she is totally unsocialized. Thankfully she is now in good hands in a performance obedience home with someone who has experience with spoos.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> do you think timi could have been picking up your stress that first time? my own dog has had a few unhappy moments at the vet and still enters the door willingly. i don't give treats at the vet's and neither does my vet. the one time my dog showed serious distress was when i let the techs take him to the back room to draw blood. when he came back out, he was upset with me for abandoning him - he stayed as far away from me as possible on leash and refused to look at me. the next time i held his chin when blood was drawn and told him it was okay. ever after, he was fine with the techs taking him to the back room and drawing the blood there.



I wasn't stressed - I love going to the vet - I could hang out there all day lol! I am pretty sure that she picked up on the stress of other dogs....


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I wasn't stressed - I love going to the vet - I could hang out there all day lol! I am pretty sure that she picked up on the stress of other dogs....


guess i have to wonder, then, why the other dogs are so stressed. the times i have been to my vet, his waiting room has been quite calm and so have his four-footed clients.


----------



## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> As part of my socialization plan, I always visited various vet offices quite frequently with my puppies to get a weight and a cookie, a little pat from the receptionists. (I haven't done as much with these Poodles as dogs in the past) You should have seen little Chulita when I took her to the vet's. She thought we were going to have a party. Her tail would wag a mile a minute and she couldn't wait to go see the girls behind the desk. She strained to get out of my arms and into theirs. lol. It was really important with my Dobe. He let the vet or anyone do anything with him...no worries. And these dogs I have now too, think it's cocktail hour with appetizers and some fun chit chat. If they get to go to the vet's and not have any painful procedures done, they don't have to associate it with a worrisome time.


Haha!! Ash is the same way. She flips out until she can get around to everyone in the room to kiss them!!!

Missy on the other hand hates everyone there and requires a muzzle. 

I believe in nature over nurture. They were both nurtured and loved on and taught by my each member of the household they very SAME and are polar opposites of one another. Unbelievable they are litter mates. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> guess i have to wonder, then, why the other dogs are so stressed. the times i have been to my vet, his waiting room has been quite calm and so have his four-footed clients.



Really, you must have some special Vet - 90 percent of the dogs that I have ever seen in any vet!s office is stressed to some degree, including every one of mine.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

or i've been lucky and have only been there when there were no difficult cases/dogs/cats.


----------



## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well that is a good theory, but that is all Timi's first visit was - treats and meeting people ( I came armed with treats to slip to everyone), and yet the moment that we walked in the door, she began to tremble - I really think that they must "smell the fear" in there, because a NYC Subway at rush hour does not phase this girl. Oddly though, when she was in the ICU at the emergency vet, she seemed unfazed - and she had lines put in three out of 4 legs, and an E collar! Maybe it was because there was only two other dog patients, and they seemed pretty relaxed, the rest were cats, so she was not picking up on fear from other animals.
> Both she and Tangee have vet appointments next week, but I am taking them separately so she does not pick up on Tangee's stress.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I wonder if it is because death has a distinct smell. Vets have to put animals down... Maybe dogs can smell it?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

We keep our puppies to 9 1/2 weeks so we can follow the Jean Dodds protocol to the letter. And we highly recommend no public places until two weeks after the third shot. You can socialize a puppy at home by having friends come over with their fully immunized dogs. There is absolutely no need to put a puppy at risk.

There was a lot of parvo outbreaks last year and I suspect there will be lots again this year because the virus lives in the ground for many months. A lot of the outbreaks in this country centered around dog shows. There are now baby puppy classes for pups four to six months old. Scary stuff. I would not even entertain the idea of these classes until the pup is 19 weeks (shots at 9, 13 and 17 weeks- two week waiting period, then good to go).

Breeders all do things their own way, and for us, 9 1/2 weeks seems ideal and makes us the most comfortable. Whenever anyone speaks about pups leaving at 6-8 weeks of age, I only have to look at Quincy to know it is ok to wait. He was to fly to us in Canada at 8 weeks old, but the volcanoes in Iceland blew, stopping air traffic all over that part of the world. He ended up coming to us at twelve weeks and is the most well balanced, easy going dog I have known in over 50 years around this breed.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> or i've been lucky and have only been there when there were no difficult cases/dogs/cats.



I honestly don't understand that - I don't think that I have ever been in a vets office where there are not any anxious dogs - no matter what they are there for, they get anxious the moment that they walk in the door. Maybe your vet pumps in calming pheromones or something?
But anyway, bomb proof Timi knew it the second that she walked in the door...


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i actually took my male dog with me to the vet when the female had to be put to sleep. he was in the room when she died in my arms. what i did not want was to take her away in the car to never return; the male already dislikes the car. he refused to get in years ago when he associated it with me leaving him somewhere. he got over it, but he still doesn't like it and i didn't want to take a chance on making it worse. nonetheless, we have been to the vet many times since the female was put to sleep, and he does not freak out. i even boarded him during the day for a few days years ago with the vet who neutered him. he only howled while left caged in the back. the receptionists put him up front with them and he was fine. i don't consider him bomb proof at all, but he is not afraid of the vet's office.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> We keep our puppies to 9 1/2 weeks so we can follow the Jean Dodds protocol to the letter. And we highly recommend no public places until two weeks after the third shot. You can socialize a puppy at home by having friends come over with their fully immunized dogs. There is absolutely no need to put a puppy at risk.
> 
> There was a lot of parvo outbreaks last year and I suspect there will be lots again this year because the virus lives in the ground for many months. A lot of the outbreaks in this country centered around dog shows. There are now baby puppy classes for pups four to six months old. Scary stuff. I would not even entertain the idea of these classes until the pup is 19 weeks (shots at 9, 13 and 17 weeks- two week waiting period, then good to go).
> 
> Breeders all do things their own way, and for us, 9 1/2 weeks seems ideal and makes us the most comfortable. Whenever anyone speaks about pups leaving at 6-8 weeks of age, I only have to look at Quincy to know it is ok to wait. He was to fly to us in Canada at 8 weeks old, but the volcanoes in Iceland blew, stopping air traffic all over that part of the world. He ended up coming to us at twelve weeks and is the most well balanced, easy going dog I have known in over 50 years around this breed.


i would generally assume a dog kept with a good breeder for however long would be fine. my female lowchen who had been a champion show dog was 7 when she came to me from her breeder. she was and still is a wonder dog in my mind. a dog with a stable temperament can be retrained to suit a different lifestyle, i would think. it's the unstable dog one has to worry about. as good as a breeder may be, some things are not always controllable or predictable. as poodle paws has pointed out, she has litter mates raised together in her household and their temperaments are very different. one loves everybody and one doesn't. go figure.


----------

