# A few concerns but a good gut feeling, what should I do?



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Is this a Standard? If so, then the dam only being 20 months is a no for me. If the litter is six weeks old, that means she was bred when she was only about 16 or 17 months old, and still growing herself. 

Health testing is something completely different from conformation titles, and the two don't exactly corrollate. 

She says the sire comes from a long pedigree of champions, but how far back are they? What about the bitch's lines? How close to her are the titled dogs? 

As far as not giving the registration papers until the dog is neutered, it's not that uncommon. Another option is to have the breeder on as a co-owner until the dog is neutered.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m sorry to say this, but the age of the parents is a big no for me. I’ve made this mistake in the past. Never again.

Physical health aside, behavioural issues don’t always emerge until a dog is fully mature. Peggy was as dog social as it gets until her 2nd birthday. She was also still very much growing at the age this dam was bred. She had her biggest vertical growth spurt around 18 months.

I just can’t think of a good reason to breed such young dogs.

Also worth noting: Volhard temperament testing is done at 7 weeks. I’m not sure how a breeder could pick a service dog earlier than that.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Additionally, I would take this with a grain of salt:


SoBecky said:


> Plus the person who I saw the recommendation from didn't post anything about sickness or health issues, and they've been fairly active on this forum for the past 3 years.


Without knowing which member you’re talking about, or which breeder, I can’t comment specifically on their experience. But...it’s one experience. _Not_ saying this is the case here, but even the sketchiest of backyard breeders can produce one wonderful puppy. 

Have you ever selected a puppy for service work before? Will there be formal temperament testing done next week, at 7 weeks, before you fully commit? And what will happen if service work doesn’t end up being a good fit for this pup? Are you prepared to give up on that goal?

Just want to make sure you’re going into this with a clear head.  Puppies are intoxicating. It’s easy to get caught up in the excitement, so I’m glad you’re hitting pause to think this through.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

I can't comment on anything other than waiting for the papers until after neutering or spay. Loki's breeder did that. She required proof from the vet confirming the neuter. She explained that someone had used one of her puppies in the past to set up a breeding program which required an expensive lawsuit.
I really don't blame her. Since getting Loki, I have met quite a few people that believe that buying a puppy should give them breeding rights because it is their dog.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Parents that age and no hip testing for a standard poodle is a definite deal breaker for me. Pennhip and OFA prelims can both be done prior to two years of age, and if I was ever going to be ok with a slightly young dog being bred, it would only be if they had had one of these completed. While I'm sure there are circumstances that are the exception, I don't really see any reason here to breed early. As PtP said, the temperaments of the parents are a reason to want older dogs used. My own dog did not mature until sometime between 2 and 3 years of age. At 16 months he still had a lot of mental maturation to go through. Older parent dogs also mean you have a better idea of health because many conditions do not surface until 5+. Winning conformation titles really has nothing to do with health testing.

Without knowing the breeder it's hard to make thorough judgement. Sometimes formerly good breeders can go downhill if they get in over their heads or go through life hardships. But I also know that people sometimes recommend breeders on here that I wouldn't personally feel comfortable recommending.

Also, papers after neuter may not be unusual, but it isn't for me. I think it used to be common before limited registration, but I don't really see it much now. One year is too early for me to spay/neuter and you are placing a lot of trust in that breeder to follow through. I see no reason to withhold limited registration on a dog. They can't be bred anyway.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

The age of the parents would be a dealbreaker for me. Phoebe is the age the dam was when she was bred, and she is nowhere near mature. She acts so puppy-ish much of the time still, so she’s not mentally mature. On top of that, she is still a pup physically, very skinny and not done filling out (adding muscle), even if she has reached her adult height, which I’m not positive she has. Diet can’t overcome that.
What would she do if you wanted to title your dog before a year old? Phoebe has gotten AKC titles and won’t be spayed for another 6 months probably…


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## SandyTopknot (8 mo ago)

@SoBecky trust your gut. And trust the advice you've been given here. I would personally run, not walk, away from this litter and this person. And if I had to leave the deposit behind because they wouldn't refund it, I would.

You're looking for more than just a puppy, you're looking for a dog you can train as a service dog. That means you need a very knowledgeable breeder who pays attention to genetic health (what their genes say they are), phenotypic health (what their body says they are), temperament and longevity.

Someone who breeds before doing all the recommended testing for their breed is doing a disservice to the dogs, the puppies and the breed. Good, ethical breeders would not breed before 2 years of age. Period. Food doesn't matter. How many seasons she's had doesn't matter. The dogs in her pedigree don't matter. She and the sire of the litter were both babies when they were bred. And the phrase "retire her early" screams byb/puppy mill to me. Not saying this person is one, just saying good breeders don't generally think in terms of breeding careers for their females, they think in terms of creating better representatives of the breed.

Sorry...off my soap box now...a great place to find Poodle breeders who adhere to ethical breeding practices is here: PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America


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## SoBecky (7 mo ago)

Thank you everyone for the advice! I decided to request my deposit back and not follow through. I think puppy fever overtook me for a minute. Lots of tears and anxiety but I know I made the right decision. I’m going to do loads more research before I contact another breeder and give it a bit before I decide to put a deposit down. Once again, thank you all so, so much.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

A wise decision, I think. Stick around and ask questions. This is the place for everything poodle!


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

I am relieved. Our spoo pups breeder waits until the dam is three years old, so as they are really mature. They all help raise the other dams puppies, so as they have a knowledge of what to do, but are not bred before all health testing, maturity etc are in order.
You will find the perfect pup. Lot's of good advice here on the forum.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Bravo to you for being strong and stepping away! 👏 👏👏

There are red flags all over this which everyone has noted, and to top it off, picking a psychiatric service dog as a wee pup is just impossible. It would be a service dog prospect at best. Think of all the Labs/Goldens/etc who are bred exclusively for service work and are trained up by experts for 2 years +, and many still fail. It's also concerning that she contacted you because she didn't have homes for the pups that she needed to get rid of. Ideally, the breeder has more than enough potential homes lined up _before the breeding even takes place._ 

I 100% feel you on the heartbreak, but, there is always another opportunity. And the time you take while you wait is going to help you really dig into what you need and want out of a breeder and future dog. I'm extending my wait much longer than I anticipated, but in the end, I'm sure I will look back and say, "Everything in its time." (I see my current duo as training me to one day train a Poodle). I just have to feel my heart flip flop every time I see a well-mannered Standard out and about.


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## Heartland2022 (8 mo ago)

Good on you for walking away from this breeder. That puppy fever can really take hold on ya been there done that. If you had went through with it I have a gut feeling it would have ended in heartbreak. You want a healthy dog from a reputable breeder and I think you're on the right track. You definitely thought this out much more than the average buyer. It goes to show a recommendation is just that it still pays to put a seller/breeder to the test. Don't get discouraged though finding the right dog breeder can take quite some time but it's worth it.😉 Informed buyers are putting these backyard breeders and mills out of business. Nothing pleases me more thank you for that! The big red flag for me she didn't have homes for these dogs that's not a planned breeding. In my honest opinion it has greed written all over it.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Tough decision; I'm glad you did some deep consideration.

I personally don't understand the point of holding back papers. It's not like anyone will be able to register a litter out of a dog with limited papers anyhow, and it's not like a complete absence of papers will stop someone from doodling. So all that holding papers back really accomplishes is making it more difficult for your buyers to start going after titles that require papers. I'd think breeders would want to encourage, not discourage, people from putting titles on dogs out of their lines.


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## SoBecky (7 mo ago)

Thank you all again for the reaffirmations. I woke up this morning to texts from the breeder telling me I was being insulting, that she was being nice by not charging me boarding fees (pup was supposed to stay until 9 weeks bc of scheduling), that I was misinformed, and that she would not be refunding any of the 500$ deposit. I know I’ll look back in a month and think “wow, I dodged a bullet!” but right now I just feel sad. I think I needed to hear this. <3


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

All the cautions above are on target.

If you'd like some additional eyes on or recommendations on quality breeders, always feel free to ask about them by name. This is within the PF rules.

This is a recent short thread that shows how this might be helpful.








Has Anyone heard of this breeder…?


Hi all, Has anyone heard of Red Teddy Poodles in Ancram, NY, If so, what has your experience been? Thanks!




www.poodleforum.com





You'll also see the recommendation to contact the PCA breeder referral folks, as SandyTopknot did. 
Some additional links
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America
Microsoft Word - breeder_members_west_mississippi_may_12_2022.docx (netdna-ssl.com)
pca_active_breeder_members_east_of_mississippi_march_17_2022.pdf (netdna-ssl.com)


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

SoBecky said:


> Thank you all again for the reaffirmations. I woke up this morning to texts from the breeder telling me I was being insulting, that she was being nice by not charging me boarding fees (pup was supposed to stay until 9 weeks bc of scheduling), that I was misinformed, and that she would not be refunding any of the 500$ deposit. I know I’ll look back in a month and think “wow, I dodged a bullet!” but right now I just feel sad. I think I needed to hear this. <3


A breeder charging boarding fees for any age puppy/dog is_ wild_. I have never heard that one. You're going to learn a lot more than $500 worth out of this. If she has google reviews, I would recommend leaving one with the full history (just the facts) as a precaution to other potential buyers. It's one of the only online reviews the business owner cannot delete. 

So sorry she capped this with ugly behavior. She's showing her true colors.


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## JasMom (7 mo ago)

I just wanted to say, I feel you did the right thing, especially after getting such a response from the breeder. To practically beg others to take puppies she can't find homes for and then refuse even a partial deposit refund tells me she is more after the money than the well-being of her dogs. Turning down cute puppies is hard, but the right one will come along. <3


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Eek. Why did she feel you were being insulting? She’s the one who offered you a service dog prospect from parents who are still too young to properly evaluate.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I can see it both ways. I think you are making the correct decision in avoiding a puppy bred from parents which are too young and which have unclear merits. 
From the breeder's perspective, I could see why she might feel a little resentful. However, there is little to gain by lashing out at a buyer in such a situation. I think it is fair of her not to return the deposit, as her dogs didn't change age between when you put down your deposit and when you cancelled the purchase. However, I think it is possible for a breeder to be firm and professionally blunt ("You signed a contract; the contract says non-refundable deposit; no you aren't getting the deposit back; we held up our end, and you signed a contract.") without descending to pettiness.


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