# Ideal Age to Neuter?



## Caddy

I am very interested in the responses to this question also, thanks for asking mfmst.


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## Poodlebeguiled

The hormones that stop being produced and become absent when neutered are responsible for closing the epiphyseal cartilage at the ends of the long bones. When these aka growth plates don't close as early as they would when the dog's hormones are present, the long bones continue to grow. When a dog is intact until fully grown, the long bones don't get as long but they fill out with more bone material, giving a beefier look than they would otherwise when neutered before full grown. My Doberman is a good example. He was neutered around 7 months and he was probably an inch or two taller than he would have been and a bit on the lanky, leggy side. He would have looked stockier had I waited until he was about 2 years old. When allowed to develop naturally until full grown, the dog develops denser, healthier bones imo. The chance of bone cancer is reduced. There are some other health issues that I believe are reduced when the dog is kept intact. The health issues they've always talked about that are reduced when neutered are the ones that have tiny chances (like 1% for prostate cancer, I think it is) of occurring anyhow. My two Poodles are intact males and 18 months old. I don't intend to neuter them unless there is some reason to. And if I do, it won't be until they're at least 2 years old. Matisse is probably going to be bred at some point so it is unlikely that I'll neuter him at all. I have no behavior problems to speak of with them that are due to being intact.

In the US they've always pushed spaying and neutering so much and brought up all the negatives of keeping a dog intact, even to the point of incorrect information. There are so many irresponsible owners and so many unwanted puppies born. So it's important to castrate dogs owned by your average John Q dog owner...so many irresponsible people. But if you're the type to keep your dog from roaming, keep your dog from accidently breeding someone else's dog, not breed unless you know what you're doing and do it scientifically with a fabulous, proven, tested dog, then other than the tendency to mark inside, which can be trained out by diligence in potty training (it's the same training) I don't have a reason to neuter my males.

Here's something about behavior in regard to neutering or keeping intact:

http://www.angryvet.com/neutering-and-behavior/


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## Shamrockmommy

^^ Well said, above.

I chose to neuter my boy at 19 months. His "boy" behaviors had gotten irritating enough (to both humans and my spayed female dogs) that it was time. 

He is an oversize toy (really more small mini) and I felt as though he was done growing. 
It DID vastly improve and eliminate all the irritating boy problems, for that I'm very happy. 

My girls I spay after 1 heat cycle.

Now, this assumes you are able to contain and keep your dog from breeding until neutering. I think vets push it so early because they don't trust the humans to be responsible to prevent accidental litters.


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## Charmed

Since you are weighing the pros and cons of neutering/timing of neutering be sure to look up zeutering. Your dog would retain about half the hormones to allow optimal muscle development; it is an alternative.


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## Mfmst

Thank you so much for your responses. I'm contractually obligated to neuter by my breeder. She is flexible about the age, as long as it gets done. I don't blame her for wanting to protect her line, especially with the doodle craze. My late Scottie was unaltered, never mated. I am surprised that this same vet, who could give me no compelling medical reason to neuter the Scottie, is in such as rush with Buck. I have read about zeutering in the NYT's, but I would like to avoid the marking tendencies. Anyway, I'm glad I have plenty of time to research it further and Buck can evade the cone for a while.


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## Purpleflower

Seven months is not a ridiculously young age to neuter, but I were you, I'd wait longer - push it as long as you can in my personal opinion. 

The reason is not because your poodle will look funny, it's because hormones are necessary for the growth plates to close properly, and they can improve his odds of developing cancers like osteosarcoma later in life. 

Many vets are not very up-to-date on the BODY of research on spaying and neutering, and tend to cite the one or two old studies they learned about that show that earlier procedures (not extremely early) are ideal. 

It actually really pisses me off - for example with bitches, spaying before first heat pretty much negates their breast cancer risk - yay!! Except breast cancer is generally one of the more treatable in dogs, oh and guess what only 50% of mammary tumours are even cancerous. At the same time, spaying before first heat profoundly increases other cancer risks, including but not limited to bone cancer, which you cannot treat with a simple lumpectomy. 

I have a bitch, so I probably know more about spaying, but unneutered dogs (and unspayed bitches) do ultimately seem to live longer and remain freer of dysplasia and arthritis, according to the research. As with everything, there are increased risks across the board, the trick is to mitigate the most serious risks as much as possible. 

I'm not one to hate on vets, but I do think they like to get people in the door before they get wooed away to another clinic that perhaps advertises cheaper rates. 

Ultimately, if he's not lifting his leg or picking fights all the time, I'd hold off and let his growth plates grow. And the benefit of having a dog is that you don't need to suffer through heats waiting for him to mature appropriately.


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## CharismaticMillie

I think that 7 months is too young to neuter. I would wait until closer to 10-12 months at the earliest.


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## loves

I'd wait until at least 18 months, 2 years if you can. Sully is 15 months old and my hope is to wait until he is 2, unless he becomes too annoying before then. 

My Tervuren was 3 when he was neutered and that was because of behavior changes, marking, etc. When he stood right next to me and a client in the groom room and marked, that clinched it. Those boys were gone by the next week and I have my sweet perfect boy back. 

I have also seen lot of pictures of leggy poodles that were neutered early. Give him time to mature. Don't let your vet push you into anything.


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## Mfmst

I have also convinced myself that Buck will not be perceived as such a threat by other dogs once he's altered. Charlie, my Scottie, was not aggressive but he got a lot of negative reactions from male dogs. Probably because he had marked every blade of grass...


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## TerryLynn

This was interesting and a topic I was curious about. My poodle is already leggy, so will do the best to wait as long as I can before neutering. He is on the larger size end anyway, and am worried about hip and bone problems.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

We ask our puppy families to wait until their boy is 12 - 14 months. This allows the puppy to grow muscle and bulk and become all he can be physically.


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## texaspoodlelover

Othello is 8 months and I am not neutering until he is 18 months if I do it at all. I have done plenty of CE hours about intact vs. altered for my career and it only makes great differences in females


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## texaspoodlelover

Othello is 8mons and I am not neutering until he is 18 months of I do it at all. I have done plenty on CE hours about intact and altered for my career and it only makes great differences in females


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## Mahlon

My take on it is if you are willing to be responsible, the best option for a SPOO is to wait 18-24 months. Most people with large dogs (spoos included) would tell you they are "Mature", "Done growing", or no longer a puppy at that age and I'd agree with them.

That said, I think if the owner is not capable or willing to take on the responsibility of a fertile intact male, it is appropriate to neuter earlier. I do not support pediatric spay or neuter though, and would not endorse neutering before 8 months in SPoos, and at the very least after the first heat for a female Spoo.

With Quinn, there are no plans to spay her before 3 years of age, and if she passes her health testing she more than likely will be having at least one litter at some point (I'm not in a hurry for a litter or for spaying). I just want to make sure she develops and matures as an intact dog would, and personally I feel the longer you can wait the better.

-Dan & Quinn


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## FireStorm

I thought it would be an appropriate time to add to this thread, given the conversation I had with our vet today. Hans is about 15 months I think (I'm terrible with dates, lol) and intact. I'm really in no rush to neuter since he isn't obnoxious and I have no issues managing an intact male and preventing unwanted puppies. So, with that in mind, when I took Hans to the vet today to get his rabies shot and an annual checkup, heart worm test, etc, we wanted to discuss when to neuter. 

Our vet is a big believer that they are better off having the benefit of their hormones as long as possible, so she absolutely advises waiting until at least 12 months (and longer if possible). She also said that for males, there is really no medical reason to neuter before age 6 or 7 as long as behavior or preventing puppies isn't an issue. So as far as she is concerned any time between 12 months and 7 years is perfectly fine. 

We also discussed gastropexy, because she is also a poodle owner and highly recommends it for spoos. She said she doesn't recommend doing that until they are completely done growing, since apparently you don't want to tack the stomach and then have that cause an issue as the dog grows which makes sense to me. She also said that while it is possible for a young dog to bloat, it isn't highly likely, especially given that Hans is a slow eater and has no family history of bloat. She thought it was perfectly reasonable to continue to leave him intact, and then do both procedures when he is older. 

Anyhow, I was pretty happy with the whole conversation, since I wasn't sure if she was going to push us to neuter him immediately. I should add the disclaimer that my family is originally from Norway although I was born in the US. So I sort of never grew up with the mentality that seems to be so common here in the US that you have to spay and neuter in order to be a responsible owner. The idea of depriving Hans of his hormones at such a young age bothers me so I'm glad we don't have to worry about it yet and we aren't risking his health by doing that.


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## Sharakin54

Does the same apply for min's. I was planning on neutering him at 6-7months?


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## Sharakin54

Charlie that is lol.


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## Carley's Mom

I would not do it before age 2. Wait until he is full grown. 

I hate that poor Stella was spayed as a puppy... I think it is best to wait until they are 2 years old with either sex. I understand why it is pushed, most people can't be responsible, but if you can make sure he does not breed, let him mature.


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## ericwd9

There is no reason to de-sex before age 24 months for a male. Your Vet is absolutely wrong. If you are having problems with aggressive behavior you might want to do this earlier. In fact if you are a responsible owner and have your dog under control there is no real need to do it at all. What you have been told about the long leg bones is correct. This applies to all sizes. Incidence of hip and other joint problems is higher in early de-sexed dogs. Bitches should have at least their first estrus or second. The only good reason for de-sexing a bitch early is to prevent pregnancy or to reduce the incidence of mammary cancer. Governments, Vets and idiots advocate early de-sexing for political, social and financial reasons.


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## JudyD

I had Jazz spayed at just under six months. If we hadn't had an intact male Lab, or if we'd had a secure way to keep them apart, I'd have waited until she was at least a year old. But we did, and we didn't, so the deed was done before she came into heat. She is a bit leggy, there's no question about that. 

Blue has an appointment with a clinic in Virginia to be zeutered on Jan. 21. Apparently it's best done between 3 and 10 months of age--he'll be 10 months on Jan. 24. I think it can be done on older dogs, but it's dependent on the size of the testicles, for which there's some maximum. I like the fact that it renders the dog infertile but preserves about half of the testosterone production.


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## marialydia

For Judy -- wondering how the zeutering went? Did it seem painful for Blue? Most interesting as I am thinking of this for my Pericles...


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## Charmed

Wilson was zeutered around Thanksgiving and the most difficult thing was keeping him "calm" for three days after the injections. He never had to wear a cone of shame and was so happy on day four when he was free to run in the yard with the other dogs. He quit obsessing with the spayed female's urine and chattering his teeth at her. He now hikes his leg, instead of peeing on his front legs, thank goodness! He is seven months old now, weighs 42 pounds and is about 24inches at the shoulder. The vet siad that his weight is good and when he felt underneath all Wilson's puppy fluff, he said, "Wow, is he ever muscled up!" I am quite satisfied with the results of the zeutering so far.


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## JudyD

We took Blue to Virginia yesterday to be zeutered. It was a long, stressful day. MapQuest estimated the trip to take 3 hours 25 minutes, Google Maps estimated 3 hours 15 minutes, but it took every bit of four hours. (That's partly because my husband actually takes those annoying speed limit signs seriously, but also because it rained and spit snow on the way over. The weather cleared, so we did better coming home.)

I talked to the animal hospital in Worthington, OH, but they weren't good about returning my calls or answering my e-mails quickly--apparently they were quite busy over the holidays. Since Blue will be 10 months old Saturday (optimal time to do this is between 3 and 10 months, and there's some maximum limit to testicular size), I wasn't willing to wait. 

Angels of Assisi, in Roanoke, is a low-cost, high volume spay/neuter clinic. They were much better about taking my phone calls, answering my questions, and accommodating the fact that we had to make a 400 mile round trip to get there. The cost was $65, which included pain medicine. (Price was not the deciding factor, but the Ohio clinic charges $410 dollars for the procedure, requires blood work--don't know how much that adds, but I'm sure it isn't free--and normally requires the dog to be seen for a physical at least a day before the zeutering.)

We dropped Blue off at 10:00 and picked him up at 1:45. I didn't like the fact that I didn't see the vet at all. Apparently she's in surgery all day long on Wednesday and Thursday. The clinic had a recent special that included spay or neuter, rabies shot, and microchip for--you won't believe it--$5, which undoubtedly means she's even busier than usual. The post-op instructions were given by a tech, who was also clearly very busy. I did get an excellent summary sheet of the meds and procedure and several pages of care instructions and basic info. 

Blue was really groggy from the sedation, walked slowly, had to be lifted into and out of the car, whimpered and cried occasionally on the way home, and acted really dazed. He had no water or food after midnight Tuesday, didn't have an IV during the procedure, wasn't to have food or water until after 6:00 p.m. last night, and then wouldn't touch either one. He absolutely refused to eat or drink, although he did pee a large amount around 9:00 p.m. We got a few tiny tail wags, but he had a distant look in his eyes and barely made eye contact with us, totally ignored Jazz. I gave him his pain pill at bedtime, and he slept well. I, on the other hand, was awake most of the night worrying about him, afraid he'd had some sort of weird reaction to the drugs, wondering if I'd done the wrong thing. 

Happily, though, he woke up this morning hungry, thirsty, bright eyed, and apparently pain-free. His scrotum is quite swollen, but he leaves it alone, so it must not hurt. The info sheet says swelling is very common and may last a couple of months, but it is painless. We're supposed to restrict his activity for a couple of days, leash walk only, then it's life as usual. 

I'm hoping we'll see less of the studly behavior he's been showing. He first lifted his leg at 10 weeks and has been doing it every time for several months. He wasn't marking at all, until just last week, when he started peeing twice on a walk, and then, on Monday, he marked four times on a 20 minute outing. The most worrisome thing is that a couple of months ago, he started barking and lunging at dogs in his training class, mostly at the beginning. He does settle down quickly, and he's a really sweet dog with humans, but I don't want this to escalate to starting fights. We'll see.


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## marialydia

Thank you both, Charmed and JudyD, for your reports on zeutering.

JudyD, it sounds like the worst is over for Blue (and for you!). It does sound like yesterday was rough but probably it would have been the same, if not even tougher for him anyway, for surgical castration, and likely the hard part would last longer. I hope Blue continues to recover quickly. I also hope his new tendencies to prove himself with other dogs are tempered as you are hoping.


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## JudyD

marialydia said:


> Thank you both, Charmed and JudyD, for your reports on zeutering.
> 
> JudyD, it sounds like the worst is over for Blue (and for you!). It does sound like yesterday was rough but probably it would have been the same, if not even tougher for him anyway, for surgical castration, and likely the hard part would last longer. I hope Blue continues to recover quickly. I also hope his new tendencies to prove himself with other dogs are tempered as you are hoping.


I did comfort myself last night by thinking that it would have been worse, for a longer time, and would have included a cone, had he been surgically neutered. As for the behavior, if it becomes a real problem, I can always have surgery done, but I'm hoping the expected 50% reduction in testosterone will be enough. At the least, I may be able to delay it until he's older.


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## JudyD

In the post above, I said Blue didn't have an IV. I just found a very small shaved IV site on the inside of his front leg. His skin is nearly as white as his coat, and I was looking for a large area, so I just didn't see it when we got home. I'd have slept a lot better last night knowing he was well hydrated. :crazy:


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## sparkyjoe

JudyD said:


> I talked to the animal hospital in Worthington, OH, but they weren't good about returning my calls or answering my e-mails quickly--apparently they were quite busy over the holidays. Since Blue will be 10 months old Saturday (optimal time to do this is between 3 and 10 months, and there's some maximum limit to testicular size), I wasn't willing to wait.
> 
> Angels of Assisi, in Roanoke, is a low-cost, high volume spay/neuter clinic. They were much better about taking my phone calls, answering my questions, and accommodating the fact that we had to make a 400 mile round trip to get there. The cost was $65, which included pain medicine. (Price was not the deciding factor, but the Ohio clinic charges $410 dollars for the procedure, requires blood work--don't know how much that adds, but I'm sure it isn't free--and normally requires the dog to be seen for a physical at least a day before the zeutering.)


I agree that the Worthington, Ohio clinic isn't very quick to respond, but I did finally receive the following breakdown of the costs involved in Zeutering as of 1/15/2015...

"Jill,

The procedure is broken down below. If you have any questions please let me know!

Diagnostic Exam/Presurgical Exam - $59.00
Acute Pain Management Injection - $23.50
Anesthesia sedation and reversal - $91.88
Zeuterin chemical castration - $175.00
Rimadyl chewable tablets (anti-inflammatory pain medication) - $20.36
Hazardous waste disposal - $10.00

Total estimate charges - $379.74 

Thank you,

Natale
Patient Care Coordinator, The Animal Hospital of Worthington"​
They don't seem to mention blood work?
I was rather surprised by the high costs involved, but appreciate them breaking it down for me.

I do wish I had a few more options that were closer to our house.


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## JudyD

sparkyjoe said:


> I agree that the Worthington, Ohio clinic isn't very quick to respond, but I did finally receive the following breakdown of the costs involved in Zeutering as of 1/15/2015...
> 
> "Jill,
> 
> The procedure is broken down below. If you have any questions please let me know!
> 
> Diagnostic Exam/Presurgical Exam - $59.00
> Acute Pain Management Injection - $23.50
> Anesthesia sedation and reversal - $91.88
> Zeuterin chemical castration - $175.00
> Rimadyl chewable tablets (anti-inflammatory pain medication) - $20.36
> Hazardous waste disposal - $10.00
> 
> Total estimate charges - $379.74
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Natale
> Patient Care Coordinator, The Animal Hospital of Worthington"​
> They don't seem to mention blood work?
> I was rather surprised by the high costs involved, but appreciate them breaking it down for me.
> 
> I do wish I had a few more options that were closer to our house.


That is interesting. I'm sure I was told blood work was necessary and that the price was $410. Maybe the $30 difference is the price for blood work, although that seems low to me, for any kind of lab test. I'm sure I'd have been pleased with the care at Worthington, and the price is probably comparable to that for surgical neutering, but time constraint was the driving force for using Angels. You'll likely get better follow-up phone care, if you need it, at Worthington. I was given the vet's cell number to call if Blue had problems, but the tech was very clear that I wasn't to use it unless I intended to drive back to Roanoke. Not likely. I'd have had my own vet see Blue and call Roanoke himself, if there were complications.


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