# What is it about doodles



## spindledreams

I think the biggest thing that upsets folks is the lack of health testing of the dogs used in the breeding of doodles by most doodle "breeders" as well as their lack of interest in anything but the cash they can get for them. Many of them are very misleading claiming that all the puppies will be non shedding and hypoallergenic, easy to train, laid back etc, etc all the things the buyer wants to hear but may or may not be true.


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## Locket

I have nothing against doodles, a lot of them are really adorable, fun, dogs. However, I do take issue with many of the doodle breeders and their breeding practices, just like I take issue with many poodle breeders and their breeding practices. 

It is hard to find a doodle breeder that health tests, and doesn't have a bajillion dogs in kennels. Many doodle breeders misrepresent their dogs to be non-shedding, good for families with allergies and low coat maintenance. That's just not true. Typically, the doodles that don't shed have a poodle coat, which requires a lot of maintenance, and the low maintenance coats shed!

I would happily get a doodle if the breeder health tests their dogs, has only a few breeding stock, and did not make false claims re:shedding/grooming requirements.


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## patk

totally agree with spindledreams. if you read about various breeds, you know that all are susceptible to one health issue or another. lovers of specific breeds do their darnedest to investigate breeding lines and try to eliminate or control those health issues to the extent possible in their dogs; ultimately they are trying to strengthen the breed and its survivability. doodle breeders just don't care if they end up making health issues worse. they do it to turn a quick buck. no matter what they say (because they've all learned to use the sales buzz words), their dogs are really coke machines for them. ugly.

does that mean mutts are awful? well, no. many at pf are or have been involved in rescue work, and rescues include many crossbreeds. but there's a difference: once you have a living, breathing creature in front of you, it's not a disposable, no matter its origins. that doesn't mean you want to see that kind of breeding perpetuated.


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## Poodlelvr

Doodle breeders seem to be fad breeders--trying to make a quick buck from the latest craze. As has been said, they make a lot of false claims about how the puppies will turn out. In my area there rescues named "Oodles of Doodles." Misinformed buyers bought misrepresented puppies who end up in rescues. Check Petfinders for poodles and you'll see what I mean. I love the poodle breed and the good poodle breeders. I don't respect fast buck breeders whether they are breeding poodles or doodles.


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## Fluffyspoos

I love dogs.

I hate greeders and ignorant puppy buyers (well, they're innocent enough, but I facepalm.)


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## CT Girl

I can't understand how someone can pick a pet who will be a member of the family with no research. If I hear another story of how someone paid for a dog the bought in a parking lot loaded with ticks and then is surprised they have a problem!!!!! Don't support these cruel people by purchasing dogs from them.


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## Theo'sMom

Well, maybe it's not intentional, but there's something about the doodle craze that perpetuates the myth that the poodle is a strange funny looking alien dog. This is not the doodle's fault or the lab's fault or the golden's fault, but it can be annoying. The doodle people, maybe unintentionally, imply that the poodles aren't good enough on their own. Poodles aren't appreciated or known for their fantastic qualities- their person like presence in your house, their intelligence, their amazing grace, their joy, their athleticism.... I have neighbors with doodles who met my poodles and asked "what kind of dog is that?".... Your dog's mother.... I've had friends say to me "I never liked poodles, but yours are great." If asked about what poodle they didn't like they admit they'd never met a poodle.
At heart, I'm interested in and love all kinds of dogs, but I want to make sure the wonderful poodle will have a place where it can be appreciated in all it's sizes, colors and personalities for what it is, without any suggestion that it needs to be different.:act-up:


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## carmatblock

Thanks to all for your insightful comments.
Here are some things I can take away from this thread:
I'll look in my area for a kennel because I want to see it with my own eyes. 
I'll look for cleanliness, space, and modest numbers. 
I'll also want to look at the health testing certification of the parents and look for home raised pups.


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## Indiana

I don't mind mixed breeds at all; the thing that I don't like is false advertising (hypo-allergenic--they don't know that if half of the mix is a power shedder) or when the doodle-breeders try to tell you that doodles have hybrid vigour, which is just ridiculously untrue. Any puppies born of poodles and labs (or goldens) will have a chance of any of the genetic weaknesses from either side, 2 genetic weaknesses don't magically combine into something stronger. Also, when any industry is untested by it's peers or any other standards, and basically makes whatever claims they want however untrue or untested those claims are, is just an industry begging for opportunist con-men. Is that too strong?? Not really. Not saying there aren't SOME doodle breeders who are highly motivated and honest, of course there must be. But I also personally know of some who aren't. So there you go. I don't hate the dogs, I just don't trust those who breed them.


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## N2Mischief

The reputable breeders study their lines. They breed to correct faults and they test for health issues. They show their dogs, either in conformation or agility or lure coursing or obedience, etc. Their dogs compete with other representatives of the breed and strive to be the best. All this knowledge, time, cost to travel, cost to enter, cost to groom, cost of handlers, cost of testing, etc., add up to a lot of work and a lot of expense. These breeders ask a high price for their pups, and still make very little or no profit.

The doodle breeders do none of this. Yet they still feel they can advertise these designer breeds and charge high prices without the work and expense. They have a much higher profit ratio. 

The uneducated buyer has no idea and buys into the lies they are told. They truly often believe they are getting a "pure bred" doodle! They do not understand they are paying these high prices for mutts. 

I have nothing against doodles themselves, some are very nice dogs. I have a problem with the people who breed them.


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## PoodlePaws

My aunt has 2 doodles - Both from different litters. One has a poodly coat and doesn't shed. The other sheds very badly. They are giant and aloof. Very pretty though. One had to have a pexy due to digestive issues. 

One of my cousins has a black standard. 

After meeting the standard, My aunt wishes she would've gotten standards instead of doodles. 

Doodles are a Fad. Anyone who would pay that much for a dog that can't be registered or shown is wasting their money IMO. 


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## Lou

I think most people I have asked why they went with a doodle instead of the real deal: "standard poodle"
They say they hate the look, (meaning show dog clips) 

I usually educate them saying:
POM POMS ARE NOT REQUIRED 

duh, right??!!! They think poodles are high-maintenance, snobby, rich French ladies's dogs. (Poodles are not for me - I've heard that a lot!)

But then they are MESMERIZED when they meet my 2 100% pure bred standard poodles! 
"Oh wow.... But they look so cute! How come?"
I say: "POODLES ARE THE BEST DOGS EVER, AND YOU CAN HAVE THEM IN ANY HAIRCUT YOU WANT!"

They also love how sweet my poodles are...

So that is one of the reasons why people go the doodle route: IGNORANCE 

And yes, a lot of doodle breeders couldn't care less about health testing, improving their dogs with each litter etc, they just want to make money selling a 
Dog that is trendy now , they even call it 
"Designer breeds" how messed up is that???!!!! 

So.. I LOVE all poodle haircuts but
here are my poodles! They look fluffy and cute and they are 100% poodle
Why mix what is already perfect?!

























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## Michelle

I have nothing against them, I love all dogs...but there are a HUGE majority that I groom and most have several health problems. Whether it be behavioral problems, skin condition, hip/knee problems, blindness ect they all seem to have something going on. In fact, the doodle I groomed today was 90% blind and only 4 years old, poor boy. Don't get me wrong, all breeds have their health problems, but responsible breeders do health testing ect before even considering breeding their dogs. It seems a lot of doodle breeders are in it for the money and throw two un-tested dogs together to get a cute mixed breed with a silly name to make quick money...they don't think about the later health outcomes of the puppies. 

They are also marketed as laid back, easy to train, non-shedding, and hypo allergenic...which most aren't one or more of those things. It really depends on the dog...I have met my fair share of doodles from working at a kennel and a grooming salon, and some are what they are said to be, others are FAR from it. 

If people would just do their research they could avoid a lot of scams and heart break with an ill dog later on, when they could have avoided the whole situation. Or avoid paying a big chunk of money for a mixed breed when they could adopt one of the hundreds of doodles that are sitting in shelters.


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## loves

It is not "doodles" but any of those so-called "designer breeds" that people create and then charge outrageous sums of money for. I mean, really $2500 for a mutt? I just groomed an Australian Labradoodle, and the owner was always very specific to put that "Australian" in front. I just called it a doodle.  He also was very quick to tell me he paid $2500 for it. Well, I probably won't see him again because the first words out of my mouth were, or was.... WHY? His reply was that it was non-shedding <cough> and hypoallergenic <now gagging> Seriously? all dogs shed, some more than others and I brush lot of hair out of poodles; it is coat type and even saliva that determines how a dog affects allergies and I told him it took several pups to get one that didn't bother a person with allergies when the first doodle was bred in Australia. 

Standard Poodles are awesome dogs, no more maintenance than any doodle, they all require grooming. And in my opinion, most doodles appear to be dumb as a box of rocks and their heads are huge!!! I mean even the smaller ones I cannot get my hand around their muzzle.

Mixed breeds happening as an accident, or oops! lesson learned are one thing, but simply creating them as a means to part some fool and their money, I really do not like.

When I was looking for a Standard, any website I saw that included labs, retrievers, etc. and ultimately also offered doodles I instantly shut down. Nope, no way would I even consider them for a puppy.


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## Imaginarium

Most responsible breeders sell their pet dogs with limited registration because the dog has faults that make its genetics not conducive to bettering the breed. These are usually (on both sides) the parents that found the "line." So you have two non-conformationally sound dogs creating mixed breed puppies that are bred with other mixed breed and charging $1200 not knowing anything about fancy, and when hip dysplasia sets in at 2, breeders are often not helpful and not stopping the breeding. Also, they never seem to educate potential owners on grooming needs, or socialize the puppies to grooming early the way most poodle breeders do. And then groomers have crazy puppies to groom that are as high maintenance as a standard, owners are mad they have to pay $50-90 every couple of months for a groom, the dogs shed AND mat repeatedly... sigh. Some doodles are great, most are cute, but their breeding is rampant and unregulated. That's what I have against them.


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## spindledreams

Actually Australian Labradoodle is VERY different from plain doodle. The Australian does make a difference this is the one with an actual standard and stud book, recommended health testing, etc. They doodle x doodle cross and only allow out crosses to Poodles and even those crosses are limited. The breeders are working with AKC for recognition. These dogs actually go back to some of the original doodle stock in Australia which is where the Australian part comes from.

Check them out


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## Vanilla-Yazoo

personally, doodles do not appeal to me, I know how careful breeding must be as I have bred syrian hamsters and had done lots of research into genetics before breeding.
I have seen several 'doodles' in my area, and my uncle has a 'cockerpoo' but I am sure its a springer poo, its bigger then our springers to the shoulder easily.

when looking for a toy poodle puppy we did as a test put into a puppy search engine 'toy poodle' and must have had as many cross bred as there where pure, if not more. I am lucky I found my breeder, she has a few show champions, dad is a champ, mum has some points and is in obedience, aunt is a 25 point champ too I think. I knew as soon as I turned up and spoke to her I had nothing to worry about, which sadly isnt the case for a lot of breeders.

I do not think things should be crossed for the sakes of it, I know the field spaniel had to be crossed to the springer because of such a small gene pool, I 100% agree with that, and the crossing some breeders do with english bull dog to bring it back to the old shape and size for the health of the dog.
when I think of 'chorkies' 'shockers' 'sprockers' 'puggles' or any of the doodles I just think "WHY" 
I see no reason for these, its not been done for suitability for a job (e.g pointing or herding)
I wouldnt personally want to own one, but if I was temp fostering it wouldnt make me turn one away.
there are a few breeds I would prefer not to own, I have had bad experiences with jack russels and a very aggressive back yard bred ****zu who had no body hair (and being bitten by a golden retriever as a baby, but I am not as bad with them)
I love dogs, I have always been a dog person


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## mvhplank

spindledreams said:


> Actually Australian Labradoodle is VERY different from plain doodle. The Australian does make a difference this is the one with an actual standard and stud book, recommended health testing, etc. They doodle x doodle cross and only allow out crosses to Poodles and even those crosses are limited. The breeders are working with AKC for recognition. These dogs actually go back to some of the original doodle stock in Australia which is where the Australian part comes from.
> 
> Check them out


Yes, if "loves" had done a little research, she might learn something and gain a new client. More info at the "about" link on the site above.

I'm affiliated with the Diabetes Alert Dog Alliance. One of the alliance's approved breeders of these medical alert dogs (they must agree to health testing and honest practices) breeds Australian Labradoodles. Many show talent for becoming medical alert dogs and all-access service dogs.

The original "labradoodles" were bred in Australia while trying to find a guide dog suitable for a client extremely allergic to most dogs. Only a few of the first-generation crosses did not trigger allergic reactions in the client. Testing at all levels is important! To try to find homes for the rest of them, the breeder suggested marketing them under the name he later came to hate.


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## poodlecrazy51

Why do you think SOOOO many breeds of dogs are crossed with Poodles?

Who do you think would sell breeding stock to be cross bred for muts?

Why would a breeder sell her AKC registerable spoo pups for $800, and sell her (mut)Doodles for $2000? (and I witnessed these litters, the spoo pups were very anti-social, aloof, but the dooble puppies charged at me growling. Same dad, different moms)

Why do you think most Doodle breeders don't do any testing?

Why do you think they hype up misleading facts about their doodles?

Why does just about every trainer I ask, tell me any Doodle in their classes is a raving loony, unmanageable dog?

Why are their so many Doodles in shelters?

I hope I don't have to answer any of these questions.
I think they are easily answered by anyone.

I have one more question. Why, In most movies, comic strips, advertisements, the poodle is
often pink, with poms all over the place, nipping at someone, acting stupid, looking snobby being walked on a leash by a person that looks snobby, etc.?

I had a heck of a time convincing my hubby, that a spoo is just as manly as our Irish Setter that passed, when I was looking for a poodle puppy. He now is embarrassing me bragging to anyone who hesitates when they walk passed him, the merits and pure joy of owning a poodle. 

Why ruin a good thing. Labs and Goldens are wonderful dogs. Poodles are, too.
Don't doodle, poodle.


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## joresk

I agree with the posters who are critical of simple poodle/other breed crosses. However, some breeding programs, most notably some of the breeders in Australia, did set out to create a distinct breed. Our doodle is a wonderful mix of the qualities of both breeds. And, a good multigeneration labradoodle to labradoodle cross does breed true much of the time. I think that even good breeders, and I certainly think our doodle breeder fell into that group, needed to be better educated on *all* of the potential genetic issues of both (or in the case of some doodles, an infused third of fourth) breeds. They also should have known more about genetics, inheritance patterns (recessive, autosomal dominant, etc). Recessive genes can lurk in any line. But doodles get a bad rap for no reason. Frankly, I much prefer our doodle to our poodle, who can be cold and aloof at times. I sometimes feel as though poodle people are the ones who "oversell" and over-estimate the virtues of their breed. Poodles, I think, anyway are improved by the addition of a lab or a golden. Just MHO. 

Johanna


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## IthacaSpoo

Here's another perspective. I grew up with labs and goldens. When it came time to find my new dog, I started there. But then, I had to marvel at the FOUR doodles of different people I know well. These dogs are GREAT, they are healthy, smart, adorable, they definitely shed less but all of my acquaintances worked on that with the breeders who all understood the variety of coats. I was secretly thinking, this is IT! I didn't want a lab or golden because they were always so..not…smart. really truly not very smart. Lovable, loyal, amazing, but cleverness was not their strong point. So we watched the doodles and played with them and dog sat them and really got to know them. They were AWESOME dogs, but I started to realize that I liked the poodle side of them more than the lab side. I kept wanting to see this side of the dog that was new to me. (Except the swimming, we live near water so I loved that these dogs (all but one) leaped into the water without a thought) So I began to wonder more about the poodle side of them. Started reading, started trolling the forum, started google imaging. Saw that I knew more poodles than I realized I knew because not all have pom poms, I just thought they were some sort of variety of portugues water dogs. I learned poodles should like water and often do. 

Oh my god! I realized that I was really, truly considering a spoo! But then, I was one of those people who was literally EMBARRASSED to tell people I was thinking of getting a poodle. My first few times telling people, you should have HEARD the list of disclaimers (ours won't be like THAT!). Poodles are as loved as they are stigmatized. I am a media effects researcher, so I knew, like people said above, my media idea of a poodle is not the way it has to be. But the more I think about it the more I see advantages and fun in certain trims and looks. I'm coming around, especially if it makes the dog happy.

So in my case, the popularity of doodles brought our family to the poodle. We would never be here about to get one in a week without that bridge. I think we aren't the only ones, our breeder mentioned that she has heard this story lately. 

Also, I think it's important to realize that on a forum like this one, you've got a population of people who LOVE their poodle (s), and this is the place to express that love, and the doodle is just a little less of what they love.


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## Tiny Poodles

If virtually every breed on the planet can be improved by mixing it with a poodle, why not just get the "great improver"!
As Lou said, poms are not required!


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## N2Mischief

Johanna,

I notice you say your poodle is cold and aloof and also I see that it is snarling and snapping at your 13 year old son. I wonder if you bought your poodle from a reputable breeder. It seems your poodle is either having health problems or possibly has a less than desired disposition. I am also wondering if you were able to contact your breeder and what the response was. I hope you see that this is not the "norm" of the breed. My poodle is sweet, loving, smart, and does not ever snarl, growl, or snap. I am sorry you are having problems with your poodle and I hope people here might be able to help remedy the problem.

Brynn


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## liljaker

I think it's not just poodle breeders and purists that feel this way.....anyone who appreciates and loves a breed finds it distasteful for others to mix breed poodles with another dog for any reason. I find people who have golden retrievers and labs feel the exact same way -- there are reasons there are breed clubs, and reasons people prefer one breed over another, so I think it's understandable when someone just throws fate to the wind without any concern for the health of the pups etc., and produces a mix breed just to make money.


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## liljaker

Tiny Poodles said:


> If virtually every breed on the planet can be improved by mixing it with a poodle, why not just get the "great improver"!
> As Lou said, poms are not required!
> 
> 
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I jokingly tell people that it's interesting everyone wants poodle in its breed because they are smart, don't shed., etc., so why not just get the Real McCoy instead of a diluted version...


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## liljaker

spindledreams said:


> Actually Australian Labradoodle is VERY different from plain doodle. The Australian does make a difference this is the one with an actual standard and stud book, recommended health testing, etc. They doodle x doodle cross and only allow out crosses to Poodles and even those crosses are limited. The breeders are working with AKC for recognition. These dogs actually go back to some of the original doodle stock in Australia which is where the Australian part comes from.
> 
> Check them out


A neighbor just got the Australian Labradoodle (certified) from a very reputable breeder. He is a very handsome fellow.....gorgeous Hershey chocolate color. These certified AL actually have very specific requirements for the pedigree, so much work has been done on that breed. I believe PWD are also part of the foundation of the AL, so they are very different than the doodle most of America knows....


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## patk

here's the ap interview with the (Australian) "founder" of the labradoodle - done for the run up to westminster (hope this falls under the fair use laws):

Breeding blunder: Labradoodle creator laments designer dog craze
The Associated Press
Feb. 7, 2014 at 10:00 AM ET
Jay LaPrete / Associated Press
He’s deemed the man who unleashed the designer dog craze, this wave of
Maltipoos, puggles and shorkies.
A Doberhuahua? Not quite.
But from that new Super Bowl ad to Hollywood boulevards and nearly to
White House, these pooches with cute names are pretty popular.
Hardly what Wally Conron expected — or ever wanted — back in the late
1980s when he first bred a pair of prize canines and called the result a
Labradoodle.
“I’ve done a lot of damage,” Conron told The Associated Press this week
by phone from his home in Australia. “I’ve created a lot of problems.”
“Marvelous thing? My foot,” he said. “There are a lot of unhealthy and
abandoned dogs out there.”
…
Conron isn’t from the show world. He was working as the puppy-breeding
manager at the Royal Guide Dog Association of Australia when he tried to
fulfill a request from a couple in Hawaii. She had vision problems, her
husband was allergic, and they wanted a dog that would satisfy their needs.
After a lot of trial-and-error, Conron came up with a solution when he
bred a standard poodle with a Labrador retriever. The mix was a personal
triumph, yet not a success outside his lab.
“I was very, very careful of what I used, but nobody wanted Labrador
crosses. Ihad a three-to-six-month waiting list, but everyone wanted
purebreds,” the 85-year-old Conron recalled. “So I had to come up with a
gimmick.”
“We came up with the name ‘Labradoodle,’” he said. “We told people we
had a new dog and all of sudden, people wanted this wonder dog.”
Over the years, demand grew for Conron and other breeders.
Labradoodles became a hot dog — Jennifer Aniston, Tiger Woods and
Christie Brinkley are among their owners — and President Barack
Obama’s family considered a Labradoodle before picking a Portuguese
water dog as the First Pet.
“When I heard he was thinking about a Labradoodle, I wrote to him and
said to make sure he checked its pedigree,” Conron said.
There’s the problem that troubles him.
Conron said there are far too many unscrupulous people eager to make a
buck at a dog’s expense. Rather than check the history and science, he said
“horrific” puppy mills are springing up and producing unstable dogs that
go unwanted and eventually are euthanized.
“Instead of breeding out the problems, they’re breeding them in,” he said.
“For every perfect one, you’re going to find a lot of crazy ones.”
That’s a concern Conron has echoed in the past, blaming himself for
opening a “Pandora’s box” and creating a “Frankenstein.”
PETA appreciated that Conron is “speaking out to stop the loss of lives
that his ‘invention’ has created.”
“Breeding ‘purebred’ or ‘designer’ dogs for exaggerated physical
characteristics such as flat faces or sloping hips can cause them severe
health problems. The kindest thing that anyone can do for dogs is to adopt
them from a shelter — and make sure that they are spayed or neutered,”
said Daphna Nachminovitch, senior vice president for People for the
Ethical Treatment ofAnimals.
Conron said he’s never owned a Labradoodle as a pet, and stopped
breeding them when he retired 20 years ago.
Since then, he’s often witnessed the effects of his work.
“You can’t walk down the street without seeing a poodle cross of some
sort. I just heard about someone who wanted to cross a poodle with a
rottweiler. How could anyone do that?” he said.
“Not in my wildest dream did I imagine all of this would happen,” he said.
“That’s a trend I started.”
© 2014 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not
be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


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## loves

Ok "loves" has done research, I've seen the websites, the articles, all the hype about doodles and they are simply a mixed breed, no matter if there is Australian in front of their name or not.

Self-grooming? Non shedding? Low maintenance? Sure if you keep your dogs in the condition of most the doodles I've come across. 

I have nothing against mixed breeds, but I do not like those that intentionally create them and then charge an arm and a leg for a MUTT.

Oh yea, here is a grooming link from a breeder of certified Australian Labradoodles, and check out his website. Awesome aren't they? roflmao 






As for AKC recognition, I heard that 30 years ago about cockapoos. The people that breed these mixes do not care about standards, they have a half dozen coat types, even more size variations, there is no way of knowing what you will get and the people who produce these dogs aren't concerned. All they can see are $$$$.

So, please stop the personal attack against me, mvhplank.

Thank you.


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## Tiny Poodles

Oh geez, why don't we all just let our poodles mat up and then cut off chunks with dime store scissors - then we can tell everyone that we too have an expensive designer dog! My gosh you could get charged with abuse for allowing a dog to get into that condition!


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## Poodlebeguiled

My biggest problem with breeding mixed breed dogs of any combination of breeds is that there are millions upon millions of mixed breed dogs languishing in concrete cells in shelters and rescues. There are millions and millions more being euthanized every day. There are so many mixed breed dogs, including doodles that need homes. 

We need to keep the purebred dogs we have, of which there are some 400 + I think...including dogs not registered AKC. There's something for everyone who wants very specific traits. Purebred dogs were bred for many various and specialized jobs for those who want that. Purebred dogs should only be bred by reputable breeders who breed the best of the best in health, temperament, conformation etc and continue to strive to improve the breed they're breeding so we don't lose these breeds that people over many generations have selected for. Of course they were made up of various breeds and sometimes even originating from some mixed breeds until they were fixed...where they all come out virtually the same, give or take. And it may be possible that an outcross needs to be added once in a blue moon to a purebred breeding to safeguard against some things. But over all, let's leave the breeding up to responsible, (as responsible as it gets when trying to maintain a breed with limited gene pools)breeders who breed to some set standards.

So, when people who do not often do genetic health testing of their various breeds, as was mentioned, who throw a couple different breeds together and turn them out like loaves of bread on a conveyer belt, which they often (not always) do, what's the point? People can get a nice mutt in a shelter. I have years ago. (have had some purebreds in later years)If people want a purebred dog, they can go to a good breeder and get that. It's pointless and irresponsible to keep adding more and more mixed breed dogs to the world.

I have nothing against mixed breed dogs. Many are wonderful. I've had my share and my son has a remarkably lovely dog that's a mix he found on the side of a road in a garbage bag. (that's another amazing story for another time) Anyhow, that is what I have against doodles. It's not as much the dogs themselves (I've known a couple of Labradoodles that were great) but it's the fact that it's a shame to sell mixed breed dogs, (dogs that are not a fixed type) claiming this and that, building them up as if they're a purebred to unsuspecting buyers while there is such a sad situation in shelters...just take a walk through one and look at those faces.

Does that mean that no dogs should be bred and only shelter dogs should be available? No, like I said, we need to keep our purebred dogs that were bred for specific traits intact and better them each generation. But leave it up to responsible breeders who understand the whole science of it.

And btw...I found my Lab to be extremely smart as well as very willing. (aka easily motivated) And Goldens are considered highly intelligent and I've known several...very quick on the trigger. I am not seeing a sign of aloofness in my two Poodles. Of course, they're puppies. But they're extremely friendly to people and dogs. And they are very attached to me...follow me everywhere, sit and wait at any door I've gone through and closed behind me. They're just adorable, affectionate and eager to learn. My sister had two Poodles some years back and I don't remember them being aloof at all....very interested in meeting and greeting. So, I don't know...I'm sure they vary a little and depending on all kinds of things, but I just haven't seen that yet. Oh, and I met some at this big dog washing, fund raising event thing they had in my town last summer....also friendly and sweet. 

So that's that in a very large nut shell.


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## spindledreams

Okay as I said recently on Facebook. HE CAN'T BE BLAMED FOR THE IDIOTS OF TODAY. His labradoodle was bred and the "name" coined in in the late 1980s as for cockapoo, maltipoo, and pekeapoo they have been around since at least the 50s. But this desire for cute named mutts only started to surface in 2005! 

Considering all the time, effort and funds spent in the 60s and 70s to give purebreds a cache' that made them more desirable then mixed breeds what happened? Why is a mutt now considered more valuable and desirable then a well breed purebred? We really need to figure this out and get back into the public eye as THE source for your next pet. And for those who believe in "Don't Buy Adopt" lets get it out there that responsible breeders are strong supporters of true rescue organizations and are often foster homes not just for dogs of their breed but for any dog in need. If a person can quote PETA "news" releases but has no idea how many dogs have been helped by Carolina Poodle Rescue who is getting the publicity? Wry grin in fact how many people on the streets in your area can name a single breed club with a breed rescue program?

Most places are like my town. The general populace may know the name of the shelter/Animal Control, some know about Black Dog rescue due to visible fund raisers. They have no idea that Save the Giants rescues large breed dogs and places them in new homes. They have no idea that there is a Herding Dog rescue in our state. They have never heard of Second Home, or any number of other well established rescues that have actually been in business longer and with a much better track then Black Dog because only Black Dog has pushed and pushed and pushed their name into everyones face.


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## mvhplank

loves said:


> <snip>So, please stop the personal attack against me, mvhplank.
> 
> Thank you.


Sorry if you were offended, but your original post just sounded uninformed. As for mixed breeds? Show me a modern dog breed that wasn't developed by cross-breeding. Even the breed standards acknowledge that. Otherwise, all dogs would look like tame wolves, I suppose.

But I'm not sure you realize what a snarky tone your posts on this thread have.

Like someone else on the forum says ... "Be nice."


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## Constance

I can't tell you how many times I would walk Ginseng and be stopped by people who would ask,Oh is that a Labradoodle? I would say No! She's a Poodle. Why would someone first assume a Labradoodle and not a Poodle? Has this mixed breed gotten so popular that it is what comes to people's minds first? Scary.


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## kukukachoo

loves said:


> Oh yea, here is a grooming link from a breeder of certified Australian Labradoodles, and check out his website. Awesome aren't they? roflmao
> 
> How To Scissor Trim a Australian Labradoodle - YouTube
> 
> 
> Thank you.


Holy Crap, this made me cringe for so many reasons!


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## hopetocurl

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I have nothing against mixed breed dogs. Many are wonderful. I've had my share and my son has a remarkably lovely dog that's a mix he found on the side of a road in a garbage bag. (that's another amazing story for another time)


Ok, your dog in a garbage bag story has piqued my interest. You may as well start a thread with the story... I want to hear it.


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## mvhplank

Constance said:


> I can't tell you how many times I would walk Ginseng and be stopped by people who would ask,Oh is that a Labradoodle? I would say No! She's a Poodle. Why would someone first assume a Labradoodle and not a Poodle? Has this mixed breed gotten so popular that it is what comes to people's minds first? Scary.


I've gotten that too, especially when Neely was still in a puppy clip. I read information somewhere by UKC judge David Arthur (breeder at Aircastle Kennels) that putting a poodle in a traditional clip "honors the dog's heritage."

So, while I don't keep my Standard in a Continental, I do shave his face and throat, feet, and keep a pom on his tail. That's the sporting clip that UKC will allow conformation dogs to wear in competition. Hardly anyone asks if he's a doodle of some sort--but I'm often fooled by dogs in a pet trim, with fuzzy faces and full tails.

Some people like the fuzzy-faced look, but that's not for me. And I think that's may be why some people think dog in a casual trim is a doodle. I let my boy's whiskers get a little long this winter and he was slinging water all over the place after getting a drink. The repeated application of a wet face in my lap was enough to make me get the clippers out!


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## Poodlebeguiled

mvhplank said:


> Sorry if you were offended, but your original post just sounded uninformed. As for mixed breeds? *Show me a modern dog breed that wasn't developed by cross-breeding. Even the breed standards acknowledge that. Otherwise, all dogs would look like tame wolves, I suppose.*But I'm not sure you realize what a snarky tone your posts on this thread have.
> 
> Like someone else on the forum says ... "Be nice."


Yes, they sure were made up of various breeds, but the difference between that kind of breeding to wind up with purebreds and doodle breeding is that the former became a fixed phenotype, I think they call it...where they all come out very uniform. They must meet certain criteria before they can be accepted as a breed.

As far as dogs, if left to their own...without human selection for breeding, they wouldn't have looked like wolves. At least that's one theory of evolution...that they would probably look like the original proto dog which was a medium sized dog that had drop ears and various coat colors...short hair. This theory is that when a certain group of wolves branched off from other wolves (more than one domestication event) and these wolves were tame enough to eat near humans, that tameness/docility is thought to be linked to genes that control some physical characteristics and cause changes....just from being docile. Docility is thought to alter brain hormones which in turn cause the physical changes. Anyhow, it's an interesting theory and there's a lot of substantial back up for it, including but not limited to a in depth wild fox study by a Russian scientist. And there's some archeological, neurologic and dna evidence as well. There may be a few holes in the theory though. Anyhow, this is something I'm quite interested in and did a little study on for my book.

Conversation with Ray & Lorna Coppinger, Authors

(sorry a little off topic but thought it might be of interest)


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## Imaginarium

kukukachoo said:


> Holy Crap, this made me cringe for so many reasons!


Is it just me, or was that guy cutting the hair down to reveal silky, satiny mats?? That whole dog looked pelted. And lifting the hair up like that is just a terrible skin cut waiting to happen. I'm with you.


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## N2Mischief

Or......or!!!! He was pulling up on the hair, tenting the skin, then just cutting!!! OMgosh he was so going to cut that poor dog. I was cringing the whole time. He called the matts "chunks"....oh for goodness sakes!!!!!


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## Lou

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh geez, why don't we all just let our poodles mat up and then cut off chunks with dime store scissors - then we can tell everyone that we too have an expensive designer dog! My gosh you could get charged with abuse for allowing a dog to get into that condition!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I am in shock!!!!!!!!! That dog will be in pain if she isn't already from all those mats pulling on her skin!!!!!! They go to scratch themselves and the nails catch on the mats and it can even bleed! 
I agree with you! That is abuse!!! 


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## Shootinfishin

Constance said:


> I can't tell you how many times I would walk Ginseng and be stopped by people who would ask,Oh is that a Labradoodle? I would say No! She's a Poodle. Why would someone first assume a Labradoodle and not a Poodle? Has this mixed breed gotten so popular that it is what comes to people's minds first? Scary.


Exactly! My boy is chocolate coloured and I CONSTANTLY get asked if he's a labradoodle though only lady did ask if he was a Spanish Water dog or something lol!

My answer to the labradoodle posse is "no he's a poodle not a mongrel"

My opinion is there are two types of dogs pedigree and mongrels


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## PoodleRick

I have a slightly different take on why the Doodle thing is happening. I think it's that Poodles aren't seen as "manly" enough. How many times have we heard guys say that they wouldn't be caught dead with a Poodle. I've had women tell me that their husbands wouldn't walk a Poodle in public. But put Labra or Golden in front of the word Poodle and all is well. Never mind that the Poodle does everything that a Lab or a Golden does only the Poodle does it with style. That's my take on it.

Rick


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## Poodlebeguiled

My sister, at one time was thinking of getting a Bishon Frisse (sp?) But her husband said he wouldn't be caught dead walking the dog in public. She wound up with a Standard Poodle and that didn't seem to cause any trouble with him. And then a couple Shelties....again, fine. lol.


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## poodlecrazy51

loves said:


> Ok "loves" has done research, I've seen the websites, the articles, all the hype about doodles and they are simply a mixed breed, no matter if there is Australian in front of their name or not.
> 
> Self-grooming? Non shedding? Low maintenance? Sure if you keep your dogs in the condition of most the doodles I've come across.
> 
> I have nothing against mixed breeds, but I do not like those that intentionally create them and then charge an arm and a leg for a MUTT.
> 
> Oh yea, here is a grooming link from a breeder of certified Australian Labradoodles, and check out his website. Awesome aren't they? roflmao
> 
> How To Scissor Trim a Australian Labradoodle - YouTube
> 
> As for AKC recognition, I heard that 30 years ago about cockapoos. The people that breed these mixes do not care about standards, they have a half dozen coat types, even more size variations, there is no way of knowing what you will get and the people who produce these dogs aren't concerned. All they can see are $$$$.
> 
> So, please stop the personal attack against me, mvhplank.
> 
> Thank you.


I could hardly watch this video of this ignoramous "grooming", a term he uses very loosely. Love his pride in purchasing dollar scissors. Wonder what he will do when he pulls skin along with the hair, and cuts that dog. And, he should go buy a dollar brush and actually brush his dog a bit. Those mats pull the skin and irritate, as WE POODLE LOVERS know too well. Has he never seen dogs getting rescued in this condition? And all the concern for the mats and damaged skin under the mats.
I am also glad "Loves" told mvhplank, off. There is no tolerance for comments like that. I believe it is stated in posting rules.


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## Ruscha_Baby

PoodleRick said:


> I have a slightly different take on why the Doodle thing is happening. I think it's that Poodles aren't seen as "manly" enough. How many times have we heard guys say that they wouldn't be caught dead with a Poodle. I've had women tell me that their husbands wouldn't walk a Poodle in public. But put Labra or Golden in front of the word Poodle and all is well. Never mind that the Poodle does everything that a Lab or a Golden does only the Poodle does it with style. That's my take on it.
> 
> Rick


Exactly. Very well put. This is exactly my take on it also, and you are the first person I have heard say it who isn't me. Lol.


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## Tiny Poodles

One thing I have to say after watching the Westminster feed today - it is the poodle handlers that perpetuate the fou - fou poodle image - and i am not talking about the haircuts, but the constant primping and combing while already in the ring that makes them look like absurdly high maintenance dogs! Why, there was even a moment before having the picture taken that Kaz pulled out the hairspray! What, he thought a big wind gust might come by indoors, in the 60 seconds before the picture was taken? Can you imagine Miss America contestants perpetually combing their hair and spraying as they walked down the runway?! I just think that if once they got into the ring, if they stopped with the beauty treatments and let them show like a dog, it would go a long way to improve the image of the breed - not letting the dog take three breaths before combing it's hair is what makes it look like an alien creature that no mere mortal could maintain!


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## loves

Hmm, the ALAA kinda shoots themselves in the foot with their breed standard. "Must be non-shedding." Every living creature, even human, with hair sheds. Some have a longer growing cycle, some have short growing cycle, some have undercoat, some don't, BUT EVERY CREATURE WITH HAIR SHEDS!! The hair does not stay in the follicle from birth to death, it is replaced on a regular basis by new hair. So, while they may shed less, shed more slowly from other breeds they still shed. 

Or is it my imagination the hair that I get on a brush when I brush out poodles and doodle things?


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## patk

loves said:


> Or is it my imagination the hair that I get on a brush when I brush out poodles and doodle things?


it's obviously your imagination, as with so much else involved in living with dogs!


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## Poodlebeguiled

All I know is I can cuddle and rough up my white, hairy, fluffy, gobs of hair Poodle while wearing my dressiest black outfit and not get a hair on me. That's what matters. :aetsch:


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## Tiny Poodles

PoodleRick said:


> I have a slightly different take on why the Doodle thing is happening. I think it's that Poodles aren't seen as "manly" enough. How many times have we heard guys say that they wouldn't be caught dead with a Poodle. I've had women tell me that their husbands wouldn't walk a Poodle in public. But put Labra or Golden in front of the word Poodle and all is well. Never mind that the Poodle does everything that a Lab or a Golden does only the Poodle does it with style. That's my take on it.
> 
> Rick



My man loves all of the attention that he gets if he walks down the street with a tiny poodle - women mob him...but I say, that's fine - they are assuming that you are either very attached or very gay - or both lol, so enjoy the attention lol!


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## PoodleRick

Ha. I totally agree. But I think it's that gay part that bugs some guys.


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## patk

PoodleRick said:


> Ha. I totally agree. But I think it's that gay part that bugs some guys.


the most overtly gay male i have ever encountered used to stroll around ostentatiously with a pit bull on leash and a woman hanging on each arm. i think the show was meant as a thumb in everyone's eye, maybe especially the eye of straight males with insecurity issues.


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## BeckyM

Constance said:


> I can't tell you how many times I would walk Ginseng and be stopped by people who would ask,Oh is that a Labradoodle? I would say No! She's a Poodle. Why would someone first assume a Labradoodle and not a Poodle? Has this mixed breed gotten so popular that it is what comes to people's minds first? Scary.


I haven't had spoos very long but I constantly get asked if it's a doodle! I never thought I'd be "put off" by that but I am. It's getting annoying and my spoo is only a pup. I feel silly for getting annoyed by that question but I'm glad I'm not alone in it.


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## Penang

I haven't heard a good argument for why, anyone would cross a poodle with some other breed. They're not improving either the poodle or the other breed in the mix. If some breeder would state that they have specific goals for improving on either of the breeds they are mating, I might listen. But all I've seen is they're trying to create a "cute" dog that family buyers like the look of. It's only a money game and it's not about creating a better dog.


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## PoodleRick

patk said:


> the most overtly gay male i have ever encountered used to stroll around ostentatiously with a pit bull on leash and a woman hanging on each arm. i think the show was meant as a thumb in everyone's eye, maybe especially the eye of straight males with insecurity issues.












Or guys who drive these things are maybe make up for some other "deficiencies" 

Rick


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## N2Mischief

Hey!! lol, Rick, I drive one of those! I think it's because I refuse to admit my age! lol Misha looks awesome in it!


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## Tiny Poodles

PoodleRick said:


> Or guys who drive these things are maybe make up for some other "deficiencies"
> 
> 
> 
> Rick



And then there are big scary guys, who don't need a big scary car or a big scary dog to prove anything!


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## hopetocurl

PoodleRick;960202
Or guys who drive these things are maybe make up for some other "deficiencies" :D
Rick[/QUOTE said:


> Ah, yes, the "compensation" truck! :devil:


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## Poodlebeguiled

Tiny Poodles said:


> One thing I have to say after watching the Westminster feed today - it is the poodle handlers that perpetuate the fou - fou poodle image - and i am not talking about the haircuts, but the constant primping and combing while already in the ring that makes them look like absurdly high maintenance dogs! Why, there was even a moment before having the picture taken that Kaz pulled out the hairspray! What, he thought a big wind gust might come by indoors, in the 60 seconds before the picture was taken? Can you imagine Miss America contestants perpetually combing their hair and spraying as they walked down the runway?! I just think that if once they got into the ring, if they stopped with the beauty treatments and let them show like a dog, it would go a long way to improve the image of the breed - not letting the dog take three breaths before combing it's hair is what makes it look like an alien creature that no mere mortal could maintain!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Here's the deal though...In the show ring, the Poodle is presented with a certain profile and/or shape...an outline. Their hair is done up to continue that outline/shape. The Poodle is described as elegant and this has become tradition in AKC shows. So, here we spend lots of time poofing the hair up to help create the shape. Hair spray is used, whether it's "forboden" or not. It's just become accepted unofficially though. You take the Poodle once he or she is all dolled up and sometimes you have to pick them up, which potentially can cause a dent in their hair or the leash goes up and messes up their ears and because of the spray, it tends to not fall back into place but instead gets yanked up this way or that. You pick them up and by accident squish them a little against you and you just made a part or a dent in their hair which disturbs the outline, in which case, your dog might look like he is misshapen. So, hence the little dab here and there, a finger to straighten the messed up ear hair or a little pocket hair spray to get that dent corrected. And viola you have a Poodle that is elegant and an outline that is near perfect. And when you're showing to win, you do what ya gotta do. They are high maintenance and they require primping. There's a lot of long hair there and it can get messed up easily. The hair spray makes it stick wherever it goes and if it's moved, there it stays.



I've posted this picture before but here it is to demonstrate what I mean.


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## Tiny Poodles

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Here's the deal though...In the show ring, the Poodle is presented with a certain profile and/or shape...an outline. Their hair is done up to continue that outline/shape. The Poodle is described as elegant and this has become tradition in AKC shows. So, here we spend lots of time poofing the hair up to help create the shape. Hair spray is used, whether it's "forboden" or not. It's just become accepted unofficially though. You take the Poodle once he or she is all dolled up and sometimes you have to pick them up, which potentially can cause a dent in their hair or the leash goes up and messes up their ears and because of the spray, it tends to not fall back into place but instead gets yanked up this way or that. You pick them up and by accident squish them a little against you and you just made a part or a dent in their hair which disturbs the outline, in which case, your dog might look like he is misshapen. So, hence the little dab here and there, a finger to straighten the messed up ear hair or a little pocket hair spray to get that dent corrected. And viola you have a Poodle that is elegant and an outline that is near perfect. And when you're showing to win, you do what ya gotta do. They are high maintenance and they require primping. There's a lot of long hair there and it can get messed up easily. The hair spray makes it stick wherever it goes and if it's moved, there it stays.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've posted this picture before but here it is to demonstrate what I mean.



I understand that, but still I think it is ridiculously obsessive - after all, the judge is actually putting their hands on the dog to feel if what is underneath the hair is correct - I doubt that they would think that the dog suddenly lost its breastbone if the hair on the chest got an 8th of an inch flatter lol!
You know talking about this really makes me wonder if UKC is a better way to go - that way a dog whose coat can actually stand up on it's own, whose color is actually what it says on it's registration papers, and maybe even one that does not need to have tear stains covered with make-up, and a brown nose colored black would be the one to pass on it's genes, rather than who knows what kind of dog is hiding in an AKC match....


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## Poodlebeguiled

Yes I think the whole thing is a bit ridiculous and over the top. But it is what it is and Poodles are one breed that customarily are very primped and fussed over and made to look as elegant as possible since that's the description of Poodles. 

But the main thing is that the judge sees the dog move which is an indicator of how he's put together as well as feeling him and checking his bite. I don't think tear stains are a reason to not breed a dog or even a not quite black enough nose. Breeders have to pick their battles so to speak and it's hard enough to get breeding dogs that have the really important stuff all in one dog.


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## 3dogs

I think everyone pretty much nailed my thoughts on Doodles. As a groomer I HATE that these Greeders tell their uninformed buyers NOT to get them groomed until 1 year of age or the coat will be ruined. Very wrong in so many ways. So many health issues in Poodles, Labs & Golden's why not try to eliminate or track those health issues instead. There is no "hybrid vigor" in these Doodles yet another myth. Buyers are not aware that Golden's are called the "Golden Tumor Dog", "Golden Cancer Stick". My Dad's last 2 Golden's died at 8 & 5 from Cancer, they were both Rescues. Destroyed him emotionally & now lives with no dogs. How sad! I have no issue with mixed breed dogs We have 3 but these dogs are from Oops litters & were FREE. Our Poodle is from CPR, a stray picked up off the streets in his dreadlocks. There is no reason to spend big money on a mixed breed or pure breed with no health testing.

As far as the Poodle there are crappy breeders in the same category as all the other money grubbers who breed mixes. But there are FANTASTIC Poodle breeders out there & I support them & their knowledge of pedigrees, health issues, lines, COI & producing sound mental & physical Poodles.

The AKC I will NOT support or the Poodle Club of America. The hair growth, hairspray, wiggies, coloring is NOT about the Poodles structure, gait or outline. It is ONLY about the "click"of today & what a judge will put up. It is absolutely wrong & until breeders, handlers & judges stop putting up with this crap it will go on & on. I commend those breeders, & handlers that scissor their Poodle on down into a correct modified hunting trim & win. These are few & far between but if more had the guts to go into the ring this way the ATTITUDE would change. Just like the attitude of longer tails is being accepted, "gay tails" are being accepted even though the breed standard states it is a fault. Acceptance comes when one sees more & more of it in the ring & winning. 

I totally support the UKC, judges & breeders that have Poodles with NO PRODUCT showing.


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## Poodlebeguiled

3dogs said:


> I think everyone pretty much nailed my thoughts on Doodles. As a groomer I HATE that these Greeders tell their uninformed buyers NOT to get them groomed until 1 year of age or the coat will be ruined. Very wrong in so many ways. So many health issues in Poodles, Labs & Golden's why not try to eliminate or track those health issues instead. There is no "hybrid vigor" in these Doodles yet another myth. Buyers are not aware that Golden's are called the "Golden Tumor Dog", "Golden Cancer Stick". My Dad's last 2 Golden's died at 8 & 5 from Cancer, they were both Rescues. Destroyed him emotionally & now lives with no dogs. How sad! I have no issue with mixed breed dogs We have 3 but these dogs are from Oops litters & were FREE. Our Poodle is from CPR, a stray picked up off the streets in his dreadlocks. There is no reason to spend big money on a mixed breed or pure breed with no health testing.
> 
> As far as the Poodle there are crappy breeders in the same category as all the other money grubbers who breed mixes. But there are FANTASTIC Poodle breeders out there & I support them & their knowledge of pedigrees, health issues, lines, COI & producing sound mental & physical Poodles.
> 
> The AKC I will NOT support or the Poodle Club of America. The hair growth, hairspray, wiggies, coloring is NOT about the Poodles structure, gait or outline. It is ONLY about the "click"of today & what a judge will put up. It is absolutely wrong & until breeders, handlers & judges stop putting up with this crap it will go on & on. I commend those breeders, & handlers that scissor their Poodle on down into a correct modified hunting trim & win. These are few & far between but if more had the guts to go into the ring this way the ATTITUDE would change. Just like the attitude of longer tails is being accepted, "gay tails" are being accepted even though the breed standard states it is a fault. Acceptance comes when one sees more & more of it in the ring & winning.
> 
> I totally support the UKC, judges & breeders that have Poodles with NO PRODUCT showing.


I agree with much of your post except the part about the product such as hairspray. I know and agree it's a bit silly and frivolous but I don't think it hurts anything and don't see what's wrong about it. It _is_ the fashion perhaps but then Poodles have for a long time been a fashionable, elegant and prized breed. I'm not about to spend all that money it takes for showing and clip my Poodle down short when I know that isn't what the game of the day is...isn't what is appealing in the show ring. I show to win, not to try and prove a point that short clips and no hair spray is more important. It just isn't a big deal to me. I found for the most part, that the judges looked at the total dog and looked past the extra fluff which seems to be fun for people.


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## Tiny Poodles

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Yes I think the whole thing is a bit ridiculous and over the top. But it is what it is and Poodles are one breed that customarily are very primped and fussed over and made to look as elegant as possible since that's the description of Poodles.
> 
> 
> 
> But the main thing is that the judge sees the dog move which is an indicator of how he's put together as well as feeling him and checking his bite. I don't think tear stains are a reason to not breed a dog or even a not quite black enough nose. Breeders have to pick their battles so to speak and it's hard enough to get breeding dogs that have the really important stuff all in one dog.



I really have to disagree with you on that - there ARE poodles that have good pigment, great coats, no tear staining, and good movement - it makes no sense that they get to equal out the playing field with cosmetics, and ultimately have the unequal dog pass on their genes as much or perhaps even more then the naturally genetically superior dog (really depending upon how much money and politics the dogs had behind them, and how aggressively the breeder goes after those stud fees)
Would you also think it was Ok for a dog to have braces on it's teeth to correct an overbite, and then show? How about a little tuck to correct the ear set? How about surgery to correct patella luxatation?!
I think it is all on the same continuum - you are altering the appearance of the dog in order to "get away with" passing on the incorrect genes to the next generations, and that is completely contrary to the primary purpose of a conformation show - to determine the best candidates for breeding!


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## Tiny Poodles

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I agree with much of your post except the part about the product such as hairspray. I know and agree it's a bit silly and frivolous but I don't think it hurts anything and don't see what's wrong about it. It _is_ the fashion perhaps but then Poodles have for a long time been a fashionable, elegant and prized breed. I'm not about to spend all that money it takes for showing and clip my Poodle down short when I know that isn't what the game of the day is...isn't what is appealing in the show ring. I show to win, not to try and prove a point that short clips and no hair spray is more important. It just isn't a big deal to me. I found for the most part, that the judges looked at the total dog and looked past the extra fluff which seems to be fun for people.



It might be less important then some issues, but I have had poodles whose coat could most definitely uphold a beautiful continental or puppy clip without product(raise your paw Teaka), and those that couldn't (raise your paw Tangee). Well, if breeders were forced to show their dogs without hairspray, then I think that my pet Tangee would have a better coat, because maybe her Sire would not have finished, and she would have had a different daddy with a better coat!
And by the way, years ago Teaka's breeder told me that Tangee's breeder's poodles were known for having soft coat - so even though everyone obviously knew it, the judges allowed them to eliminate the fault with hairspray. But as a naive pet buyer, all I knew was that I was buying a champion sired puppy from a breeder that was finishing a lot of poodles. If I had been told that I was buying a soft coated, brown nosed, tear staining poodle - well, maybe I would have gotten her anyhow, but I sure would not have paid as much as I did lol! 


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## Poodlebeguiled

No dog is perfect in every way. As an example, the reason we still see VWb in Dobermans somewhat often is because it's not usually a clinical problem in Dobermans...sometimes yes, but mostly no. Breeders want to pick their battles and so concentrate on the severe issues such as dilated cardio myopathy, cervical vertebral instability, bone cancer...then there's temperament to consider and conformation. So, to make sure they have the very most important health issues less likely to occur, they have to let some things go. 

No, I would not like to let patella luxation, bad teeth to be ignored or any other health problem. A slight pigment insufficiency isn't going to put me off. That can still be bred away from in the future with black nosed dogs. I'd concentrate on the real health issues first and worry about less important things later if I were into breeding. If there are enough "perfect" dogs in the gene pool, then great. But I've never heard of a perfect dog, even yours or mine. Coats...I don't think hair spray will make a difference. When the hair is so long as it is for the show ring...for puppies especially, it isn't going to be a dense coat that stands up by itself...not with puppies anyhow. Adults, well, I don't think that hair spray hides anything because it's not put all over the body, just the head area as far as I know. Maybe someone else more familiar with showing adults could chime in. 

Maybe it's not always optimum what they do. I know a lot of breeds have deteriorated and AKC has a lot to do with it. I get that. But I don't know that hair spray is the biggest culprit.


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## Tiny Poodles

Poodlebeguiled said:


> No dog is perfect in every way. As an example, the reason we still see VWb in Dobermans somewhat often is because it's not usually a clinical problem in Dobermans...sometimes yes, but mostly no. Breeders want to pick their battles and so concentrate on the severe issues such as dilated cardio myopathy, cervical vertebral instability, bone cancer...then there's temperament to consider and conformation. So, to make sure they have the very most important health issues less likely to occur, they have to let some things go.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I would not like to let patella luxation, bad teeth to be ignored or any other health problem. A slight pigment insufficiency isn't going to put me off. That can still be bred away from in the future with black nosed dogs. I'd concentrate on the real health issues first and worry about less important things later if I were into breeding. If there are enough "perfect" dogs in the gene pool, then great. But I've never heard of a perfect dog, even yours or mine. Coats...I don't think hair spray will make a difference. When the hair is so long as it is for the show ring...for puppies especially, it isn't going to be a dense coat that stands up by itself...not with puppies anyhow. Adults, well, I don't think that hair spray hides anything because it's not put all over the body, just the head area as far as I know. Maybe someone else more familiar with showing adults could chime in.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's not always optimum what they do. I know a lot of breeds have deteriorated and AKC has a lot to do with it. I get that. But I don't know that hair spray is the biggest culprit.



Well no, there are no perfect dogs, (though Teaka does come astoundingly close lol), the goal of breeding should always be improve, improve, improve on a ll aspects.
But let me ask you this - if a poor pigment has been hidden with make-up, how would one know to "breed away from it with a black nosed dog in the future"?
With bitches being shipped or more AI taking place, the only view that the owner of the bitch may ever have is the studs pedigree and show pictures. To the contrary, what you may wind up with in such a scenario is an owner with a good pigmented bitch having the gene pool degraded with poor pigmentation, rather than keeping the good pigment as they were trying to do when they picked the stud. Then, if that breeder chooses to join the farce and disguise those pups poor pigment, on and on it goes.

Now if a dog with poor pigment was so fabulous that someone wanted to show it openly, and enough judges agreed that it was so wonderful, it should win despite the fault, and then others agreed that the dog was so great, that they wanted to use it and try to correct the pigment in future breedings, I would think that was fine.

But what I will never be fine with is having faults hidden, and potentially passing them along to future generations without disclosing them.


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## vicky2200

I think any breeder who does genetic testing, health testing, provides quality healthcare for their dogs during and after pregnancy, and has the buyers sign a contract to bring the dog back at any time if they cannot keep them is a good breeder. I really don't care if they are breeding two of the same breeds, two different breeds, or two mutts if they can provide quality care. Unfortunately most breeders do not do this. That doesn't mean I wouldn't get a dog from a "bad breeder" because I don't blame the dog and I believe they need a good home. I wouldn't pay the prices that most doodle breeders want, especially when you consider you can go adopt one for far cheaper at nearly any shelter.


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## Poodlebeguiled

I agree with you over all or with the concept. But the gene pools are really very small and I would prefer breeders concentrate on the health defects first and foremost, then take those other things into consideration. What I'm trying to say is, because the gene pool is so small, it isn't always possible TO pick and choose enough dogs that do not have one thing wrong in their ancestry. There are a lot of potential health problems...diseases, defects, horrible stuff in most breeds and Poodles are no exception. Breeding the same few dogs over and over again causes genetic drift and mutations. It's just how it goes. So, to widen the options as much as possible, I would think would be very important and then take care of those minor things as we go along. But I'm not that well informed about all the ins and outs of breeding.

I think before someone would breed their bitch to my dog, I'd hope they didn't just go off of a picture but would speak to me as well. Maybe that's not how it works though.


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## cindyreef

PoodleRick said:


> I have a slightly different take on why the Doodle thing is happening. I think it's that Poodles aren't seen as "manly" enough. How many times have we heard guys say that they wouldn't be caught dead with a Poodle. I've had women tell me that their husbands wouldn't walk a Poodle in public. But put Labra or Golden in front of the word Poodle and all is well. Never mind that the Poodle does everything that a Lab or a Golden does only the Poodle does it with style. That's my take on it.
> 
> Rick


I also 100% agree. For ex: Im not allowed (by hubby or kids)to have Dexter in a continental or pom poms. He is in a modern or lamb clip. Shaven face, feet, long ears and pom tail. He rarely gets mistaken for a doodle and hubby and myself are only too quick to say he is 100% poodle. Many people ask what he is though. They never saw a big spoo.

Now in my city there is a man that walks his doodle (a handsome dog) and is very well known. Ive had people say to me , Mr ---- has a dog like yours. I met him and his wife at a local park when I was walking Dexter. They made a beeline for us and showered Dexter (and my grooming ) with compliments. It was actually excessive and he said if he had known poodles were like mine he would of gotten a spoo. But he loves his dog and he thinks it takes more of the poodle side so he is hopeful. So I think a lot of people don't research their decision. They just go by what they hear from friends and acquaintances. And everybody wants to be noticed for having something different. He just didn't realize that around here, spoo's get a lot of attn. And you don't need a "doodle" for that.


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## ApricotsRock

When Rookie was a baby and hadn't had his first grooming (and is there anything cuter than a baby poodle without his first haircut?) he was mistaken for a doodle. Wow, didn't that set me off. I am not a confrontational person, but I made sure everyone knew that he was an APRICOT MINI POODLE. :alberteinstein:


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## KidWhisperer

Personally, I never take offence when people ask if Sammi is a doodle. Maybe it's just my nature, or the fact that I am an educator, but I think explaining the breed to questioners goes much farther than angry annoyance. Standard poodles are pretty rare around here while doodles are very common, so it's natural they might think Sammi is one too. I've also had lots of people say they had no idea they made poodles that big! Some even think Sammi is a show dog (she is FAR from that--lol!) A gentle explanation would serve the breed better and begin to dispel all those negative misconceptions about poodles and their owners.

One thing we've found really funny around here...when my DH takes Sammi to our local park/playground for a walk around the pond, the adults ask questions and are stumped by Sammi, while all the little kids point and yell, "Look, a pooooooodle!!!!!!!!!"


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## Lou

KidWhisperer said:


> Personally, I never take offence when people ask if Sammi is a doodle. Maybe it's just my nature, or the fact that I am an educator, but I think explaining the breed to questioners goes much farther than angry annoyance. Standard poodles are pretty rare around here while doodles are very common, so it's natural they might think Sammi is one too. I've also had lots of people say they had no idea they made poodles that big! Some even think Sammi is a show dog (she is FAR from that--lol!) A gentle explanation would serve the breed better and begin to dispel all those negative misconceptions about poodles and their owners.
> 
> One thing we've found really funny around here...when my DH takes Sammi to our local park/playground for a walk around the pond, the adults ask questions and are stumped by Sammi, while all the little kids point and yell, "Look, a pooooooodle!!!!!!!!!"


Wow. That's right!! Every little kid knows Lou & Apollo are poodles! I wonder how they know... There must be a kid show/cartoon with Spoos!
They always say the same thing! "Look! Poodles!" The little kids never asked me about them being doodles.... Interesting!
Oh! I think most doodles have this really long mustache too and sometimes a straight haired long tail. I don't think my Spoos look like the "common" goldendoodle or labradoodle haircut

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## sjenius

vicky2200 said:


> I wouldn't pay the prices that most doodle breeders want, especially when you consider you can go adopt one for far cheaper at nearly any shelter.


Yep! My "cockapoo" was $300 from the shelter and came already housebroken and with some basic obedience training. She didn't last long though. I saw her listed on Friday, met and reserved her on Saturday, and she came home on Sunday. I love her dearly, but love the more poodle-esque traits she shows, hence why I want a poodle as the next dog.


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## percysmom

Standard poodles are very rare in my area and most people think Percy is either a labradoodle or a giant mini. I have found that around here some people don't even know that there is such a thing as a standard poodle. 
Doodles are super common here too. I am near Lancaster pa and there are a lot of Amish that sell them. There is a golden doodle that I pet sit for who came from an Amish farm. He is a lovable, big, galoot who is as dumb as a box of rocks. He had some digestive issues as a pup but but that could have been from his owners being careless with what he ate. Percy absolutely looooves him. So much so that he is totally distracted by another one in our obedience class. He so wants to play with hat dog. 
Anyway as for the kids knowing poodles both Curious George and Cliffard the Big Red Dog cartoons on PBS have them. One has the standard pom clip but the other doesn't. 

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## Poodlebeguiled

Lots of adults have asked me what breed my Chihuahuas are and the kids invariably know right off the bat and I heard one little girl, probably about 8 tell her mother, "they're Chihuahuas." lol.


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## Jamie Hein

I take issue with the breeders of these poodle mixes who tell the buyers that grooming is minimal. It is not minimal with a poodle breed!!! I get so many people coming into the salon who seriously say that the breeder told them it was not necessary to brush their cockapoo, golden doodle ect. I also have a problem with breeding these mixed breed dogs when there are so many mixed breeds in the shelters already. While there are poodle rescues, there are less poodles in rescues, and if you want a dog with a health clearance then a reputable breeder will be the way to go, but these doodle breeders in my opinion aren't breeding to better any breed, are not reputable, and just looking for the money.


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## Chells_Aura

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Lots of adults have asked me what breed my Chihuahuas are and the kids invariably know right off the bat and I heard one little girl, probably about 8 tell her mother, "they're Chihuahuas." lol.


It's amusing how it's adults who just can't tell... When I got my siamese rescue he was reeeaaally anti-social, so I got a leash and harness for him and took him everywhere with me. You would not believe how many adults asked me what kind of dog he was... and when I would give them a bewildered look and tell them "He's a Siamese..." They would, no joke, squeal in delight and exclaim "Oh! I didn't know dogs had a siamese breed!"


I know he's not a poodle but here's a pic of him on his leash so you can see how un-dog he looks!!










ETA: 
(to stay on topic ) I also had a hard time convincing my hubby to go poodle, and when Chell's hair grows out and she really needs a haircut I always delay it because he loves how she looks so much.


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## Poodlebeguiled

The thing about pigment is that it is not a structural or temperament fault. A fine, healthy dog with a terrific temperament, with incorrect pigment on the points could be bred to a very well pigmented dog which is almost as, or as fine a dog in other ways and produce some number of puppies with good pigment, which in turn can pass on those genes more as generations occur.

When a mutation changes a gene and the mutation survives, the gene pool increases. (it's how evolution works). The gene pool decreases when an alleles dies out.

It's just a shame to throw out _yet _more copies of alleles of the already _very_ limited gene pool in a great dog with a pigment fault. The smaller you make the gene pool, the fewer alleles, the less variation etc... the higher the odds for genetic diseases and more serious mutations. 

_I think that a responsible breeder _always strives to improve upon the last generation. But the fewer dogs left in the gene pool, those same dogs being bred over and over again, a bottle neck occurs and that can be the end of a breed or species, as the case may be. Even _occasionally_ outcrossing can help, breeding a dog outside of the breed.


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## Tiny Poodles

If it was so easy to breed away from a pigment fault, how come so many Tpoos have it?
I think that the reason is because so many hide the fault.
Again, if they were out in the open and showed the dog without hiding the fault, I would have absolutely no problem with that. Let judges make an informed choice as to if the dog was worth putting up, and let other breeders decide if it is worth breeding to because the other traits are so fantastic.
But, if it is worth hiding it, then IMHO, it is not worth breeding to!


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## Poodlebeguiled

We'll just have to agree to disagree (up to a point on my part) because I'd rather keep the other more serious defects and diseases at bay by preventing such a bottle neck and work on something like pigment as we go...I guess a different philosophy.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Talking about tear stains in another thread made me think how much I'd love to see tear stains go away for good. I wish breeders could breed out these over active tear ducts. But to do that, they'd have to breed ONLY dogs that don't have that issue. What would happen then? The gene pool would really shrink down, only those dogs that don't have it (but might have something worse) would breed...their offspring would breed and the same dna would be replicated over and over.... and diversity in dna would become scanty. This is what bothers me about losing genetic diversity in breeds. It is singularly the biggest issue causing defects. If a defect or harmful allele carries on when the gene pool shrinks down to only a few alleles, then the odds of getting the disease from that allele becomes much larger. A small gene pool is generally very bad for a species or a breed. Some typical problems are low fertility, genetic diseases and defects. It is what causes extinction eventually. A large gene pool cushions against genetic diseases. So, again, first things first imo. I don't abide by everything AKC says is important. Some of their values are the very thing that has deteriorated many, many breeds.


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## Tiny Poodles

Poodlebeguiled said:


> We'll just have to agree to disagree (up to a point on my part) because I'd rather keep the other more serious defects and diseases at bay by preventing such a bottle neck and work on something like pigment as we go...I guess a different philosophy.



I think that the only thing that we disagree on is that you think it is ok for the faults to be hidden, and I think that they should be in full view so that all breedings are done with full knowledge, and they can work on eliminating faults in a reasonable way.
I am not at all advocating for the gene pool to be whittled down to nothing.


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## RufflySpeaking

I'm a show breeder (not of poodles, though we do have a spoo - of first Danes and now Cardigan Welsh Corgis, but we have some Tibbies and other breeds hanging around too). All of the breeds I've been involved in actively hide pigment issues in the show ring - whether nose, early greying, small scars, tear stains, etc. It's done in ALL breeds. 

What you may not realize is that these little cosmetic corrections are done only in the ring, and they're done so a small pigment fault doesn't wreck the chances of an otherwise good dog. No *breeder* is fooled into thinking that a dog has a black nose and breeds to him thinking that the nose is real. Nose black (which is just iodine in one tube and a starch in the other) works for a few minutes and then gets licked off or washes off in the water bowl. Nobody really thinks the dog has no tear stains because it's a magically non-staining dog. 

By the time a breeder makes that final decision, she's either seen the dog in person (often many, MANY times), lived with the dog, or had trusted friends see the dog. Coat texture or nose pigment or eye staining are not anything close to a surprise - and if they are, shame on the breeder (NOT the stud dog owner) for not doing her research better! (The stud dog owner, by the way, is doing the same research on the bitch, to make sure this is going to be a good match, and the stud dog owner will be asking the same kind of questions and looking for the same information, and will similarly not be shocked by cosmetic issues).

So, knowing all that, why do pigment issues, eye stain, and a bit softer coat get perpetuated? Because they are so low on the priority list. And that's precisely where they SHOULD be. I know that as owners (trust me, I did this too) you imagine that a breeder has hundreds of dogs to choose from. So why are they not choosing black noses? In fact, most breeders are hard-pressed to find one or two or three, of all the thousands in the country, that they think would be a good match in terms of pedigree (and the longevity and inherited issues in that pedigree), health testing, temperament, ability, and conformation. When you have only two or three dogs in the entire US that will actually bring your breeding program forward, your focus on nose pigment is about fortieth on your priority list. Your first is likely to be something like shoulder or balance, then movement, head and neck, and you can fill in the rest, down to toe shape and whether there's a lot of loose skin at the neck. I would have to have a really serious pigment issue before I'd put it above the functional parts of the dog. 

Now - on the original question - there can be a lot of unthinking outrage on both sides. For me, what separates responsible breed development from just crossing dogs is a definition of success and failure. People who are developing a breed have a goal of behavior, function, and a job in mind, an end result they want that does not exist in any other breed. And they have an excellent idea of conformation and soundness, and strive toward optimal levels of both. Real breed developers test every single puppy against those goals, and nine out of ten puppies will not meet them. They work their entire lives to get to the point that they can consistently produce dogs who can do whatever that job is. 

What most if not all doodle breeders seem to think is that their job is just producing a puppy. No goals, no idea what a doodle can do that other breeds cannot, no "pet puppies" that are in any way functionally different than "breeding puppies." And yes, that includes the multi-generational breeders and the Australian Labradoodle breeders. Until they start showing that they are committed to producing something beyond a non-shedding dog that can pass OFA, they're not even at the level of the most mediocre show or working breeder.

Joanna
whiteravencardigans.com


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## Poodlebeguiled

RufflySpeaking said:


> I'm a show breeder (not of poodles, though we do have a spoo - of first Danes and now Cardigan Welsh Corgis, but we have some Tibbies and other breeds hanging around too). All of the breeds I've been involved in actively hide pigment issues in the show ring - whether nose, early greying, small scars, tear stains, etc. It's done in ALL breeds.
> 
> What you may not realize is that these little cosmetic corrections are done only in the ring, and they're done so a small pigment fault doesn't wreck the chances of an otherwise good dog. No *breeder* is fooled into thinking that a dog has a black nose and breeds to him thinking that the nose is real. Nose black (which is just iodine in one tube and a starch in the other) works for a few minutes and then gets licked off or washes off in the water bowl. Nobody really thinks the dog has no tear stains because it's a magically non-staining dog.
> 
> By the time a breeder makes that final decision, she's either seen the dog in person (often many, MANY times), lived with the dog, or had trusted friends see the dog. Coat texture or nose pigment or eye staining are not anything close to a surprise - and if they are, shame on the breeder (NOT the stud dog owner) for not doing her research better! (The stud dog owner, by the way, is doing the same research on the bitch, to make sure this is going to be a good match, and the stud dog owner will be asking the same kind of questions and looking for the same information, and will similarly not be shocked by cosmetic issues).
> 
> So, knowing all that, why do pigment issues, eye stain, and a bit softer coat get perpetuated? Because they are so low on the priority list. And that's precisely where they SHOULD be. I know that as owners (trust me, I did this too) you imagine that a breeder has hundreds of dogs to choose from. So why are they not choosing black noses? In fact, most breeders are hard-pressed to find one or two or three, of all the thousands in the country, that they think would be a good match in terms of pedigree (and the longevity and inherited issues in that pedigree), health testing, temperament, ability, and conformation. When you have only two or three dogs in the entire US that will actually bring your breeding program forward, your focus on nose pigment is about fortieth on your priority list. Your first is likely to be something like shoulder or balance, then movement, head and neck, and you can fill in the rest, down to toe shape and whether there's a lot of loose skin at the neck. I would have to have a really serious pigment issue before I'd put it above the functional parts of the dog.
> 
> Now - on the original question - there can be a lot of unthinking outrage on both sides. For me, what separates responsible breed development from just crossing dogs is a definition of success and failure. People who are developing a breed have a goal of behavior, function, and a job in mind, an end result they want that does not exist in any other breed. And they have an excellent idea of conformation and soundness, and strive toward optimal levels of both. Real breed developers test every single puppy against those goals, and nine out of ten puppies will not meet them. They work their entire lives to get to the point that they can consistently produce dogs who can do whatever that job is.
> 
> What most if not all doodle breeders seem to think is that their job is just producing a puppy. No goals, no idea what a doodle can do that other breeds cannot, no "pet puppies" that are in any way functionally different than "breeding puppies." And yes, that includes the multi-generational breeders and the Australian Labradoodle breeders. Until they start showing that they are committed to producing something beyond a non-shedding dog that can pass OFA, they're not even at the level of the most mediocre show or working breeder.
> 
> Joanna
> whiteravencardigans.com




:adore: Exactly. Thank you for explaining so well. Great post.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

As a breeder of purebred Standard Poodles, I find the entire Doodle thing extremely offensive. I have worked very hard over many years to improve upon what I started out with. This generation of reds (our third) has 9 to 11 genetic tests performed to ensure, as much as it possible, that we will be producing healthy puppies in the future. We have been ridiculed and beaten up because our first generation of homebred reds saw issues with pigment. We have quickly learned that pigment can be corrected in one generation, if one breeds to the right dog. BUT- we now have three generations of healthy, well tested girls to go on with. We spend months, sometimes years, researching dogs to buy to bring into our breeding program to continue making improvements. We spend a small fortune doing this and have imported dogs from Iceland and the Czech Republic to bring diversity, low COI's, good health and conformational improvements to our bloodline. Testing to the degree we do it costs about $1,000. Buying a good dog and importing it can be upwards of $3,000. Showing it to it's championship can be $3,000-10,000. Breeding it to an outside male of good quality can be $3,000. And at the end of the day we get $1,800-2,000 for our puppies. And we could spend the money importing and showing the dog to find out from the testing that the dog cannot (or should not) be bred, and pull the dog from our breeding program and take the financial loss of the purchase, shipping, showing and testing. But a dedicated breeder goes into this with their eyes wide open, and while heartbreaking, will do what they need to do to preserve the breed they love.

Then I see the ads on Kijiji and Craigslist for Doodles. Ads filled with lies and pumped up claims of the dogs non-shedding qualities, hybrid vigor...all the nonsense that has been discussed here. The reality is a lot of these "breeders" have simply purchased a Poodle from an unethical breeder who did not insist on spay or neuter, and the neighbour's Golden looked like a darned good way to make a few bucks, bred them, and then sell these untested, unproven mutts for $2,500. There is something depserately wrong with this picture. The Doodlers are of the mind that BS baffles brains, and apparently in a lot of cases, they are absolutely correct.

I also own Whippets, and have often joked about having Whipples or Poopets, and who knows, that might start a new craze that could make me very wealthy. But breeding mutts is not where my heart is. I think it is sad, risky and extremely unethical. I believe most purebred people breed for their love of the breed, and their hope to be a part of improving the health and quality of their beloved breed/colour, while most mutt breeders have dollars signs in their eyes and do it for one reason and one reason only-PROFIT.


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## poodlecrazy#1

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> As a breeder of purebred Standard Poodles, I find the entire Doodle thing extremely offensive. I have worked very hard over many years to improve upon what I started out with. This generation of reds (our third) has 9 to 11 genetic tests performed to ensure, as much as it possible, that we will be producing healthy puppies in the future. We have been ridiculed and beaten up because our first generation of homebred reds saw issues with pigment. We have quickly learned that pigment can be corrected in one generation, if one breeds to the right dog. BUT- we now have three generations of healthy, well tested girls to go on with. We spend months, sometimes years, researching dogs to buy to bring into our breeding program to continue making improvements. We spend a small fortune doing this and have imported dogs from Iceland and the Czech Republic to bring diversity, low COI's, good health and conformational improvements to our bloodline. Testing to the degree we do it costs about $1,000. Buying a good dog and importing it can be upwards of $3,000. Showing it to it's championship can be $3,000-10,000. Breeding it to an outside male of good quality can be $3,000. And at the end of the day we get $1,800-2,000 for our puppies. And we could spend the money importing and showing the dog to find out from the testing that the dog cannot (or should not) be bred, and pull the dog from our breeding program and take the financial loss of the purchase, shipping, showing and testing. But a dedicated breeder goes into this with their eyes wide open, and while heartbreaking, will do what they need to do to preserve the breed they love.
> 
> 
> 
> Then I see the ads on Kijiji and Craigslist for Doodles. Ads filled with lies and pumped up claims of the dogs non-shedding qualities, hybrid vigor...all the nonsense that has been discussed here. The reality is a lot of these "breeders" have simply purchased a Poodle from an unethical breeder who did not insist on spay or neuter, and the neighbour's Golden looked like a darned good way to make a few bucks, bred them, and then sell these untested, unproven mutts for $2,500. There is something depserately wrong with this picture. The Doodlers are of the mind that BS baffles brains, and apparently in a lot of cases, they are absolutely correct.
> 
> 
> 
> I also own Whippets, and have often joked about having Whipples or Poopets, and who knows, that might start a new craze that could make me very wealthy. But breeding mutts is not where my heart is. I think it is sad, risky and extremely unethical. I believe most purebred people breed for their love of the breed, and their hope to be a part of improving the health and quality of their beloved bred/colour, while most mutt breeders have dollars signs in their eyes and do it for one reason and one reason only-PROFIT.



amen Sista!  I totally agree! 

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## Tiny Poodles

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Talking about tear stains in another thread made me think how much I'd love to see tear stains go away for good. I wish breeders could breed out these over active tear ducts. But to do that, they'd have to breed ONLY dogs that don't have that issue. What would happen then? The gene pool would really shrink down, only those dogs that don't have it (but might have something worse) would breed...their offspring would breed and the same dna would be replicated over and over.... and diversity in dna would become scanty. This is what bothers me about losing genetic diversity in breeds. It is singularly the biggest issue causing defects. If a defect or harmful allele carries on when the gene pool shrinks down to only a few alleles, then the odds of getting the disease from that allele becomes much larger. A small gene pool is generally very bad for a species or a breed. Some typical problems are low fertility, genetic diseases and defects. It is what causes extinction eventually. A large gene pool cushions against genetic diseases. So, again, first things first imo. I don't abide by everything AKC says is important. Some of their values are the very thing that has deteriorated many, many breeds.



Not to boast, but Teaka's breeder has always told me that health has always been her first concern in breeding, and an eye with correct structure that does not tear stain is but one of the many health concerns that she takes into consideration. 
And indeed, I believe that she has virtually eliminated tear staining from her lines, and as I have said before, Teaka is the most extraordinary healthy poodle that I have ever known. 
And she has done it in concert with conformation breeding that has made her one of the top champion producing breeders in the country, if not the world, so it CAN be done, and it COULD be done by smaller scale breeders if only they were more honest with one another...


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## spoo novice

Love your puppy pic in this post. How old and what's his/her name?


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## patk

gotta go with tp on this. if pigmentation is not an issue, why is it part of the standard, why does arreau say she was beaten up over it (presumably by other breeders) and why do people showing their dogs try to hide it when it's not as described in the standard? i'm just hearing a lot of rationalizing for what in any other sport boils down to cheating. i'm pretty sure if there were a way to really falsify neck and back lines, tail set and amount of chest, someone would try that, too. and we'd hear the same rationalizations. it must be pretty frustrating for breeders like arreau who put as much sweat and heart into breeding as they do to know the playing field is not level and it's ignored by the judges and the akc. if standards are just there to be ignored, well, why point the finger at doodlers?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

patk said:


> gotta go with tp on this. if pigmentation is not an issue, why is it part of the standard, why does arreau say she was beaten up over it (presumably by other breeders) and why do people showing their dogs try to hide it when it's not as described in the standard? i'm just hearing a lot of rationalizing for what in any other sport boils down to cheating. i'm pretty sure if there were a way to really falsify neck and back lines, tail set and amount of chest, someone would try that, too. and we'd hear the same rationalizations. it must be pretty frustrating for breeders like arreau who put as much sweat and heart into breeding as they do to know the playing field is not level and it's ignored by the judges and the akc. if standards are just there to be ignored, well, why point the finger at doodlers?


I was beaten up over it by people who did not seem to realize the Standard says for cream, apricot and red that brown pigment is accepted though not preferred. We showed Quincy to a judge from Equador, and I loved to watch his judging. He wore light pants in the ring and he wiped every dog's nose with his hand, then wiped his hand down his pant leg. I presume if he had found anyone had coloured the nose, he would've dismissed them. 

But people cheating in the show ring, because some feel they almost have to to even out the playing field is, in my opinion, no reason to give Doodle "breeders" a green light or an ounce of forgiveness for what they do. The shelters are full of them, and I have to presume some of it is because the buyers are duped into the non shedding fairy tale and some of it is because a lot of the dogs are so un-intelligent and difficult to train that their new humans feel like they are beating their heads against a brick wall.


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## Tiny Poodles

patk said:


> gotta go with tp on this. if pigmentation is not an issue, why is it part of the standard, why does arreau say she was beaten up over it (presumably by other breeders) and why do people showing their dogs try to hide it when it's not as described in the standard? i'm just hearing a lot of rationalizing for what in any other sport boils down to cheating. i'm pretty sure if there were a way to really falsify neck and back lines, tail set and amount of chest, someone would try that, too. and we'd hear the same rationalizations. it must be pretty frustrating for breeders like arreau who put as much sweat and heart into breeding as they do to know the playing field is not level and it's ignored by the judges and the akc. if standards are just there to be ignored, well, why point the finger at doodlers?



Very well said - especially love your last point!
Can only imagine how upsetting it would be if one had a naturally great dog in the ring and came in second to one that was painted here and there!


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## RufflySpeaking

Good pigment (whether real or enhanced) is not going to make a mediocre dog win. The lack of it may keep a good dog from winning, but there's a difference there. A painted mediocre dog may win once or twice because a judge is an idiot, but I've never seen one become a big winner because of paint. 

It's obvious, Tiny Poodles, that you care a lot about certain aspects of appearance, such as pigment and tear staining. That's why it's great that you found a breeder who cares a great deal too. It's a wonderful example of why people should pick their breeder rather than pick their puppy; some breeders are going to be a better match than others. Someone else is going to have different priorities and be a better match with a different breeder.


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## Tiny Poodles

RufflySpeaking said:


> Good pigment (whether real or enhanced) is not going to make a mediocre dog win. The lack of it may keep a good dog from winning, but there's a difference there. A painted mediocre dog may win once or twice because a judge is an idiot, but I've never seen one become a big winner because of paint.
> 
> It's obvious, Tiny Poodles, that you care a lot about certain aspects of appearance, such as pigment and tear staining. That's why it's great that you found a breeder who cares a great deal too. It's a wonderful example of why people should pick their breeder rather than pick their puppy; some breeders are going to be a better match than others. Someone else is going to have different priorities and be a better match with a different breeder.



I was thinking of a dog who is otherwise fairly equal competing against a dog with good pigment and no tear staining - it would be very wrong if the dog with the hidden faults win.
And yes you are correct, I am VERY happy to have found a breeder who is good on these issues, but I have to say that from many years of reading poodle message boards and forums, poor pigment and tear staining are issues that upset a LOT of pet parents, so I am thinking that many were unaware of this issue when they got their babies...and I wonder were they too unaware to ask, or were they fooled by misleading show pictures of the parents!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

To the OP...I am so sorry your thread has wandered so far off track...

I understand that MANY dogs, not just Poodles, will suffer from winter nose. This has nothing to do with bad genetics. It is just the nature of the beast. And tear staining can be caused from many things, the wrong food for a particular dog being one of them. I do not think chalking out tear stains on a light coloured dog is cheating or misleading. The dog may have an ear infection at the time of a show, causing it's eyes to tear as well. There are so many things that can and do take place that make covering up tear stains seem so incredibly petty!

But seriously...what has any of this got to do with Doodles?


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## Tiny Poodles

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> To the OP...I am so sorry your thread has wandered so far off track...
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that MANY dogs, not just Poodles, will suffer from winter nose. This has nothing to do with bad genetics. It is just the nature of the beast. And tear staining can be caused from many things, the wrong food for a particular dog being one of them. I do not think chalking out tear stains on a light coloured dog is cheating or misleading. The dog may have an ear infection at the time of a show, causing it's eyes to tear as well. There are so many things that can and do take place that make covering up tear stains seem so incredibly petty!
> 
> 
> 
> But seriously...what has any of this got to do with Doodles?



As PatK said, if you are going to ignore and skirt around the standards for the poodle, then how do you criticize Doodlers for having no standards? Sure having no standards is worse than ignoring just a few, but really it is along the same continuum.


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## RufflySpeaking

First, tear staining is not in the standard. So nothing is being skirted. I would say that dyeing a spotted nose would be beyond what I'd be comfortable with, but touching up winter nose (which is genetically a solid nose but has faded due to the season) is not something that would bother me. You can also fix a winter nose with kelp, or with UV light or sunlight - would it be "skirting around the standard" to feed kelp or move to California?

One of the most important things to learn about breeding dogs is the difference between superficial faults and structural or fundamental faults. Structural faults affect the dog's ability to live a normal and pain-free life; they must never be ignored. Superficial faults are just the parcheesi rules that we all live with in the show ring, that make no objective sense (why on earth would a winter nose hurt a dog? And why is it specifically allowed in other standards but not this one?) but we follow because that's the way the game is played--until the next standards committee gets a wild hair and changes it, that is.


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## Poodlebeguiled

RufflySpeaking said:


> First, tear staining is not in the standard. So nothing is being skirted. I would say that dyeing a spotted nose would be beyond what I'd be comfortable with, but touching up winter nose (which is genetically a solid nose but has faded due to the season) is not something that would bother me. You can also fix a winter nose with kelp, or with UV light or sunlight - would it be "skirting around the standard" to feed kelp or move to California?
> 
> One of the most important things to learn about breeding dogs is the difference between superficial faults and structural or fundamental faults. Structural faults affect the dog's ability to live a normal and pain-free life; they must never be ignored. Superficial faults are just the parcheesi rules that we all live with in the show ring, that make no objective sense (why on earth would a winter nose hurt a dog? And why is it specifically allowed in other standards but not this one?) but we follow because that's the way the game is played--until the next standards committee gets a wild hair and changes it, that is.


*The voice of reason.*

:adore: :adore::adore:


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## Tiny Poodles

RufflySpeaking said:


> First, tear staining is not in the standard. So nothing is being skirted. I would say that dyeing a spotted nose would be beyond what I'd be comfortable with, but touching up winter nose (which is genetically a solid nose but has faded due to the season) is not something that would bother me. You can also fix a winter nose with kelp, or with UV light or sunlight - would it be "skirting around the standard" to feed kelp or move to California?
> 
> One of the most important things to learn about breeding dogs is the difference between superficial faults and structural or fundamental faults. Structural faults affect the dog's ability to live a normal and pain-free life; they must never be ignored. Superficial faults are just the parcheesi rules that we all live with in the show ring, that make no objective sense (why on earth would a winter nose hurt a dog? And why is it specifically allowed in other standards but not this one?) but we follow because that's the way the game is played--until the next standards committee gets a wild hair and changes it, that is.



Yes, I know that tear staining is not in the standard, however I think universally people would rather not have it.
As for the structure - but of course I would not expect any dog with structural issues to finish even if their nose was covered with diamonds - I was speaking of the idea that with most of the major things being fairly equal, it is unfair for the owner of the poorly pigmented dog to cheat by disguising it with make-up, and possibly winning over a structurally equal and well pigmented dog. As for winter nose, or spotted nose, I do not believe that would happen to a dog with good pigment period.
But if you are ok with dying it, then I guess that you would be OK with dying mismarks too? How about throwing some contact lenses in a dog with too light eyes? How about having a little tuck done to correct a poor ear set, or poor tail carriage, because that does not effect the structure and function of a dog? In fact, why not throw out the entire standard, and write one that just says, good movement, hips and knees - anything else about what the dog looks like is entirely up to you!


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## Chagall's mom

Last week at the Westminster Kennel Club show I happened to sit next to a Labrador breeder from St. Louis, MO. She engaged me, and my fellow PF poodle pals, in a discussion about how we felt being "on the other side" of the Ladradoodle conundrum. We had an instant and ironclad meeting of the minds! Short summary: doodles are a very bad idea, for the reasons already outlined by others here. She feels about Labradors as we do about Poodles. Purebreds come with so many benefits!


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## cindyreef

Tiny Poodles said:


> Yes, I know that tear staining is not in the standard, however I think universally people would rather not have it.
> As for the structure - but of course I would not expect any dog with structural issues to finish even if their nose was covered with diamonds - I was speaking of the idea that with most of the major things being fairly equal, it is unfair for the owner of the poorly pigmented dog to cheat by disguising it with make-up, and possibly winning over a structurally equal and well pigmented dog. As for winter nose, or spotted nose, I do not believe that would happen to a dog with good pigment period.
> But if you are ok with dying it, then I guess that you would be OK with dying mismarks too? How about throwing some contact lenses in a dog with too light eyes? How about having a little tuck done to correct a poor ear set, or poor tail carriage, because that does not effect the structure and function of a dog? In fact, why not throw out the entire standard, and write one that just says, good movement, hips and knees - anything else about what the dog looks like is entirely up to you!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App




Please take this in the fun way it is intended. I laughed out loud because I wish you were all involved in the Beauty Pageant World. The above so applies but here cosmetic surgery and deceptive covering and "enhancements" are the norm. Currently getting someone ready now for a Miss Universe feeder and she had to contend with all this. Its not fair here too...LOL


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## BellaRose

*Wow*

What does everyone think of the other dogs that are being mix with our beloved poodles...it seems like everyone wants to breed with the poodle.
My baby comes to its forever home in 6 weeks and I am on pins and needles waiting. Oh she is a Miniature Poodle!
But....my husbands dog is a "Doodle" female, fixed and a real treasure, very much a poodle personality. Her breeder is great, but you are right she doesn't do health testing. No she isn't in it for the money, her dogs live with her and are well loved and taken care of and not over bred.
I don't think Doodles are a fad, they will, if not already, be popular at mixed breed shows.
Just my 2 cents.


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## Jamie Hein

BellaRose said:


> What does everyone think of the other dogs that are being mix with our beloved poodles...it seems like everyone wants to breed with the poodle.
> My baby comes to its forever home in 6 weeks and I am on pins and needles waiting. Oh she is a Miniature Poodle!
> But....my husbands dog is a "Doodle" female, fixed and a real treasure, very much a poodle personality. Her breeder is great, but you are right she doesn't do health testing. No she isn't in it for the money, her dogs live with her and are well loved and taken care of and not over bred.
> I don't think Doodles are a fad, they will, if not already, be popular at mixed breed shows.
> Just my 2 cents.


If she isn't in it for the money, and she is not doing health testing to better the "breed" then why is she doing it at all?


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## patk

the worst mix i have heard of is a doberhuahua. i'm serious. i met a lovely woman at costco buying a huge bag of dog food and asked her what kind of dog she had. turns out she had five in the household at the moment - her own and a couple of fosters, including a pit mix and the doberhuahua. we both shook our heads over that, but clearly that dog was going to get the same loving care as the others. 

so it's really not the dogs. it's the people who breed (or let their dogs breed) without any real concern for the future of the dogs. doodles may indeed be here to stay, but that doesn't mean their breeders will ever be loved and respected by those who value poodles and want to strengthen and preserve the breed. i would think good breeders/lovers of labs and any other specific breed would feel the same way.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Well, let's analyze what a Lab has that a Poodle doesn't have. I've had both breeds and love them both. Hmmmm. My Lab was quite laid back even as a puppy. She was drivey enough. She was willing to please. (aka: easily motivated) She was smart and quick to catch onto new things, very trainable. She was friendly to people and not particularly reserved....and mostly to other dogs she was friendly...once in a while snarky if the other dogs were near the property or us. She was WONDERFUL with the kids....loving, trustworthy, tolerant. She even protected my kids once when an almost intruder tried getting into the house. She became vicious, gnashing teeth at the door. (highly unusual for a Lab) She did shed. Oh boy did she shed. She was healthy for most of her long life. She loved to swim. Her coat took forever to dry and it was hard to bathe her...to get her wet through that wonderful double coat that was slightly oily. Fantastic hunting dogs, both upland and water...and can tolerate frigid waters that most hunting dogs can't. 

Okay, now to Poodles. Don't shed, but high maintenance hair wise. Other qualities? Pretty much the same, aren't they? So what's the point of Labradoodles?

So, why breed the two together?


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## kontiki

carmatblock said:


> Thanks to all for your insightful comments.
> Here are some things I can take away from this thread:
> I'll look in my area for a kennel because I want to see it with my own eyes.
> I'll look for cleanliness, space, and modest numbers.
> I'll also want to look at the health testing certification of the parents and look for home raised pups.


I would look for health testing back two generations. Some of the tests require that they be 2 years old. I have yet to hear of a doodle breeder that goes to the expense of adequate health tests. However often the doodle breeders are charging more than top notch poodle breeders.


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## kontiki

PoodleRick said:


> Ha. I totally agree. But I think it's that gay part that bugs some guys.


Yup - I am embarrassed to say, but one of my son's says he doesn't want to walk my cream Spoo because people will think he is gay! I asked if he was homophobic or something. Geez. I now notice and admire every man walking a Spoo! Love em....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

RufflySpeaking said:


> First, tear staining is not in the standard. So nothing is being skirted. I would say that dyeing a spotted nose would be beyond what I'd be comfortable with, but touching up winter nose (which is genetically a solid nose but has faded due to the season) is not something that would bother me. You can also fix a winter nose with kelp, or with UV light or sunlight - would it be "skirting around the standard" to feed kelp or move to California?
> 
> One of the most important things to learn about breeding dogs is the difference between superficial faults and structural or fundamental faults. Structural faults affect the dog's ability to live a normal and pain-free life; they must never be ignored. Superficial faults are just the parcheesi rules that we all live with in the show ring, that make no objective sense (why on earth would a winter nose hurt a dog? And why is it specifically allowed in other standards but not this one?) but we follow because that's the way the game is played--until the next standards committee gets a wild hair and changes it, that is.


I like you..a LOT! So happy you joined this forum!


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## poolann

patk said:


> i'm pretty sure if there were a way to really falsify neck and back lines, tail set and amount of chest, someone would try that, too. and we'd hear the same rationalizations.


Ok I'm taking it off topic again but have you noticed the outlandish continentals in the ring? Do you think the clips are not disguising necks, chests & back lines that could be better or are not in line with the standard? The clip as currently seen in the AKC ring is not practical for the original purpose of the dog. Sorry but if the PCA would change the required clips there would be an incentive towards structurally better dogs. 

Back to the subject of doodles...health testing & breeding for profit are definitely concerns. Not to mention the ability to supposedly get a dog less likely to have health issues due to the cross, hypo-allegenic or non-shedding. Also many people don't consider the grooming required for a dog that doesn't shed. I have now experienced both sides of the issue of shedding vs non-shedding. 

Ultimately I feel that the hype surrounding doodles is unfortunate and the dogs that aren't placed in homes that are prepared/informed ultimately suffer. When you purchase a purebred dog of any breed from a quality breeder they are able to give you a general idea of what to expect. When you mix two breeds or don't buy from a reputable breeder it is a crap shoot.


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## patk

poolann said:


> Ok I'm taking it off topic again but have you noticed the outlandish continentals in the ring? Do you think the clips are not disguising necks, chests & back lines that could be better or are not in line with the standard? The clip as currently seen in the AKC ring is not practical for the original purpose of the dog. Sorry but if the PCA would change the required clips there would be an incentive towards structurally better dogs.


i think creative grooming is why good judges put their hands on the dogs, but most do not do what arreau's ecuadorean judge did, which was check noses for paint. there are also tons of little shows all around the country where only one or two dogs are shown in a specific category. how likely is it that a judge has the courage to say, none of those dogs comes close? nope, one of those two is going to come out as the winner. there are many flaws in competitions; there always are. but i think the reason the standards don't change so easily is that there are dogs that come close to meeting them or even do meet them and overall really dedicated breeders feel that they merit recognition.

there are no standards for doodles. and that's a serious problem because it's a testament to, as you say, crap shoot breeding.


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## RufflySpeaking

Actually, the Continental jackets and poms are MUCH tighter now than they used to be. If you look at the historic show clips, especially since English Saddle was the choice of most handlers, the dog looks like an absolute round mass of hair with feet and face sticking out. 

POODLE IS US TOP DOG - British Pathé

Look at the Standard at the end - you can barely see the dog. 

Are they disguising? Of course! That's the handler's, or owner-handler's, job. You carve a dog out of the hair. But that has nothing to do with whether clips are too long; it's done with every single breed. And yes, even the smooth coats. Even on dogs with hair half an inch long, you tighten the tuckup, clean up the markings, do the edges of the ears, shorten or lengthen a tail visually, etc. Anything with over an inch lets you handily disguise dippy toplines, bad rear angles, etc. 

Once you've made the best possible picture you can, it's the judge's job to find the dog and measure it accurately. Many of the faults you've mentioned will show easily when the dog moves - hair cannot disguise the way a foot falls on the ground, and a dog with a straight shoulder cannot move correctly. Others have to be found by the hands. When you watch a judge in the ring, he's not just feeling the dogs. He's measuring using his hands. Every dog has certain landmarks, so the judge will typically start at the head and measure head proportions and bite, then move down and find shoulder, prosternum, upper arm, depth of chest, length of ribbing, croup angle, stifle and second thigh, and tail set in about thirty seconds. Coat does NOT fool a judge. What it does is give the dog a "good hair day," presenting the most flattering picture and most attractive outline. 

Now on doodles: There's a doodle breeding program near me that, to its credit, does health test thoroughly. I still have a very hard time with it, though, because as long as the dog passes testing and doesn't shed, it's a "success" for that breeder. I've had conversations with her and when she talks about a dog she'll say "This is Tucker; he's a red fleece-coat so we're so happy to have him." "I picked her from a stud fee litter because I really needed an apricot wool coat." And on and on it goes. Never "He had by far the best rear in the litter" or "I loved her head type and expression." I've seen her "pick" puppies and they don't have anything close to the balance, soundness, and quality that even a relatively mediocre Golden or Poodle will have. Until I see some evidence that doodle breeders understand conformation and movement, even with health testing I can't give them much credit.


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## patk

what specific health tests does this breeder do? just curious given the two breeds involved.


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## RufflySpeaking

She does hips, elbows, yearly CERF, thyroid, and heart, I think. Like I said, it's to her great credit. But her dogs - yeesh.


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## patk

RufflySpeaking said:


> She does hips, elbows, yearly CERF, thyroid, and heart, I think. Like I said, it's to her great credit. But her dogs - yeesh.


if i have not misunderstood what i've seen discussed at pf, this does not come close to meeting the testing standards used by better standard poodle breeders. in addition to the vip recommended tests, standard poodle breeders esp. pay a great deal of attention to coefficient of inbreeding because of the presence of wycliffe lineage genes, which are considered to be a genetic bottleneck in the development of the breed. 

i suspect any good lab breeder also has a list of tests that extends beyond your neighbor's. same would be true for golden retrievers.

i assume some doodlers are also throwing mini poodles into the mix (one of my neighbors had a doodle that, as she told me, "was supposed to be smaller"), which means a different set of tests, as well.

at best, your neighbor's "breeding program" seems to be a case of the path to hell being paved with good intentions.


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## Chagall's mom

This article http://ckcsc-gc.org/Oodles_of_doodles.pdf makes some excellent points. Among them,"To begin with, no reputable breeder would knowingly sell a puppy to somebody planning to produce mixes, so the breeding stock must come from other less-than-reputable sources. The quality and health of their bloodlines is suspect to say the least." This, along with the regrets expressed by Wally Conron, the man who created the Labradoodle reportedly saying, "‘I released a Frankenstein. … People say ‘aren’t you proud of yourself?’ and I say, ‘not in the slightest. I’ve done so much harm to pure breeding,’" sums up the doodle issue for me. First dog breeder of Labradoodle puppies regrets dog breed | Global Animal


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## Cailin77

patk said:


> i assume some doodlers are also throwing mini poodles into the mix (one of my neighbors had a doodle that, as she told me, "was supposed to be smaller"), which means a different set of tests, as well.
> 
> at best, your neighbor's "breeding program" seems to be a case of the path to hell being paved with good intentions.


Yes, there is definitely a trend toward "mini doodles" with using minis. My aunt has two "golden doodles" (a 10yo male and 9yo female) and I know the "greeder" she bought them from got a 12 pound mpoo stud in recent years. Beyond the health and genetic issues I see with "doodles" I also have a big issue with how they advertise them as "the perfect family dog." In my experience, they are extremely high energy dogs, tend to be very large (my aunt's male is around 80 pounds) and have high grooming requirements- qualities that are not ideal for busy families! And of course the "hybrid vigor" advertising drives me absolutely crazy! A friend had a "labradoodle" that died of bloat- which is common in both labs and spoos, but which "greeders" aren't apt to warn people about.


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## kontiki

Chagall's mom said:


> This article http://ckcsc-gc.org/Oodles_of_doodles.pdf makes some excellent points. Among them,"To begin with, no reputable breeder would knowingly sell a puppy to somebody planning to produce mixes, so the breeding stock must come from other less-than-reputable sources. The quality and health of their bloodlines is suspect to say the least." This, along with the regrets expressed by Wally Conron, the man who created the Labradoodle reportedly saying, "‘I released a Frankenstein. … People say ‘aren’t you proud of yourself?’ and I say, ‘not in the slightest. I’ve done so much harm to pure breeding,’" sums up the doodle issue for me. First dog breeder of Labradoodle puppies regrets dog breed | Global Animal


Excellent article by the man who started doodles. I thought it was so important that I posted it in a well known dog forum and said I agreed with him, plus a few other points. Several people replied . Not all agreeing. Suddenly the entire topic I started was deleted from the forum. No explanation. I don't trust that forum any more.


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## RufflySpeaking

patk said:


> if i have not misunderstood what i've seen discussed at pf, this does not come close to meeting the testing standards used by better standard poodle breeders. in addition to the vip recommended tests, standard poodle breeders esp. pay a great deal of attention to coefficient of inbreeding because of the presence of wycliffe lineage genes, which are considered to be a genetic bottleneck in the development of the breed.
> 
> i suspect any good lab breeder also has a list of tests that extends beyond your neighbor's. same would be true for golden retrievers.
> 
> i assume some doodlers are also throwing mini poodles into the mix (one of my neighbors had a doodle that, as she told me, "was supposed to be smaller"), which means a different set of tests, as well.
> 
> at best, your neighbor's "breeding program" seems to be a case of the path to hell being paved with good intentions.


With those tests, she's meeting or exceeding CHIC requirements. So I don't think she's skimping on tests or cutting corners on health testing. And the focus on COI in Standards is far from universal; in fact, it's rarely done in the highest echelons of show breeding, and by those breeders a focus on COI is seen as a sign that you're likely a very lower-tier breeder. 

I don't like to separate good breeders from bad based on health testing as an absolute criteria. Spending a grand on a vet visit doesn't make your dog worth breeding, and for a really outstanding dog the failure of a health test does not mean that they are not worth breeding. I'd rather say that a good breeder uses health testing, pedigree analysis, and some of those other litmus tests as part of an entire breeding program that is designed to produce dogs that excel at their jobs. It's the breeding program that consistently produces excellent dogs that separates good from bad.


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## patk

good points, but i have to start with what do you mean by excellence? when you say a dog that can do its job, that's a starting point, but a dog that does great retrieves at a year old and doesn't live past five or six or is unable to continue to do that job for more than a few years due to ailments that could have been tested and bred out of the line calls into question a breeder's program.

i don't consider the breeders at pf who pay a good deal of attention to health and temperament issues to be lower tier breeders. if you breed standards, you are going to get lots of puppies. out of a litter of, say, ten, not all can meet the standard to be campaigned. the rest will hopefully go to loving homes as companions. their health and temperament will be right up with "typiness" as primary considerations and not to have done the necessary to ensure they can also fulfill that purpose seems, well, cavalier, and contrary to the achievement all "good breeders" claim to aspire to: improving the breed.


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## kontiki

Oh dear, I am not a breeder. I don't understand CHIC and COI, although it sounds like I should. I am very much interested in healthy lineage, and in temperament, as my gorgeous Spoo is a Service Dog, and any replacement Service Dog I will be looking for the same things. 

His mother is also a top show winner, and the breeder didn't want to give him up, so I was very luck to get him. He came with health tests back two generations, and a long lineage, but I was not interested in showing him. I didn't know at the time which health tests his parents should have. So hopefully I lucked out. He is now 4 years old. 

Can someone explain CHIC and COI ? I am not even sure I have the abbreviations correct. Maybe I should also post this in a different forum topic, for instance breeding?


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## Chagall's mom

kontiki said:


> Can someone explain CHIC and COI ? I am not even sure I have the abbreviations correct. Maybe I should also post this in a different forum topic, for instance breeding?


Coefficient of Inbreeding (COI)
A Beginner’s Guide to COI | Dog Breed Health
Playing COI: Using inbreeding Coefficients
CHIC
Canine Health Information Center


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## kontiki

Chagall's mom said:


> Coefficient of Inbreeding (COI)
> A Beginner’s Guide to COI | Dog Breed Health
> Playing COI: Using inbreeding Coefficients
> CHIC
> Canine Health Information Center


Thank you so much Chagall's mom. I am just reading the Beginners Guide to COI, and it says to go to this site to find the COI of your dog: "You can check your prospective puppy’s COI (or COI of both parents) by going to the Kennel Club’s online Mate Select programme: Mate Select from the Kennel Club Click on Individual Inbreeding Coefficient."

I am puzzled, I live in the US, and my spoo was bred in the US, but this is a UK website. Does it contain all the USA dogs too?


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## Chagall's mom

kontiki said:


> Thank you so much Chagall's mom. I am just reading the Beginners Guide to COI, and it says to go to this site to find the COI of your dog: "You can check your prospective puppy’s COI (or COI of both parents) by going to the Kennel Club’s online Mate Select programme: Mate Select from the Kennel Club Click on Individual Inbreeding Coefficient."
> 
> I am puzzled, I live in the US, and my spoo was bred in the US, but this is a UK website. Does it contain all the USA dogs too?


Check out the Poodle Pedigree site. You can create an account and get the COI info! 
Poodle Pedigree
http://www.poodlepedigree.com/FAQ.html
Just some more on COI
What is COI


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## RufflySpeaking

I think it's very unwise to confuse health testing with actually being healthy. A breeder can have endless generations of passed health testing and not have soundness and longevity. When a dog can do great retrieves at a year old but can't do that job past five or six because of health issues, it's very, VERY unlikely to be because of hips. 

I am absolutely on your side when it comes to COI. I'm just saying that "low COI" is considered by many show breeders to be code for "We put hash pedigrees together." So you can't hold it up as something all good breeders do. 

Good breeders are committed to success in at least one job for the dog - whether show ring, hunting, whatever - AND to making sure that their breeding doesn't produce painful dogs. That means understanding aspects of structure and movement and how dogs are put together, not just whether they can pass three or four tests. That's where I've never seen a doodle breeder even able to keep from drowning, much less make progress.


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## kontiki

Chagall's mom said:


> Check out the Poodle Pedigree site. You can create an account and get the COI info!
> Poodle Pedigree
> Poodle Pedigree


Ok - I Have applied and requested verification. It seems weird though. I just want to look up information, but apparently if one is validated, one then can have "the ability to add new dogs to the database, correct errors and fill in missing information". That doesn't seem right to me. Basically that means someone validated could screw around with their data base????


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## Chagall's mom

kontiki said:


> Ok - I Have applied and requested verification. It seems weird though. I just want to look up information, but apparently if one is validated, one then can have "the ability to add new dogs to the database, correct errors and fill in missing information". That doesn't seem right to me. Basically that means someone validated could screw around with their data base????


Sent you a PM so as not to take this thread too far off course.


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## patk

RufflySpeaking said:


> I think it's very unwise to confuse health testing with actually being healthy. A breeder can have endless generations of passed health testing and not have soundness and longevity. When a dog can do great retrieves at a year old but can't do that job past five or six because of health issues, it's very, VERY unlikely to be because of hips.
> 
> I am absolutely on your side when it comes to COI. I'm just saying that "low COI" is considered by many show breeders to be code for "We put hash pedigrees together." So you can't hold it up as something all good breeders do.
> 
> Good breeders are committed to success in at least one job for the dog - whether show ring, hunting, whatever - AND to making sure that their breeding doesn't produce painful dogs. That means understanding aspects of structure and movement and how dogs are put together, not just whether they can pass three or four tests. That's where I've never seen a doodle breeder even able to keep from drowning, much less make progress.


i think you are speaking to the pf choir. while i personally do not own nor expect to own, a spoo, i doubt anyone who has really paid attention at pf will buy a poodle from a breeder who does not address the whole dog, including competitiveness (conformation, agility, etc), health and temperament. the best breeders here (and like the mikado, i have a little list) check all the boxes and don't skimp on the effort they put into breeding. i can't even imagine what a list would look like for a doodle.


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## Markbthompson

I get asked all the time if my red apricot SPOO is a GoldenDoodle and told how much they want a dog like her but can't afford 1500-1800, then I tell them she is a SPOO, in a puppy cut with a beard, she IS hypoAllergenic, intelligent, friendly, and AKC registered, oh yeah they sell for 800-1000 from a reputable breeder. So why but a dog that may shed, isn't truly hypo-Allergenic, will stink when wet, for more money? Sure Goldens are ok on intelligence but not like a poodle.


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## Pup's mom

Hi !
My first posting on here since returning to the US 

I will tell you why I don't like Doodles or Snoodles or whatever they want to call them ... 
It isn't the actual dog, some are very nice and cute etc.

It is the mixing of a perfectly good, actually very good breed (Poodle) with another breed that might be very good too. . but that does not mean you just invented a super good new breed ! You created a mutt.

That might look like a Poodle or might look like a mutt.

Poodles have certain "requirements" .. the hair, the nose, the ears etc .. mix that with a dog that is nothing like a poodle and you get a big ,often very sweet, big, shedding mutt.
and then ... people try to sell them for many hundreds of dollars.
Years and years of perfecting the (Poodle) breed goes into each dog ... and that is trashed with the first litter from a Poodle / Golden.

so that is my opinion, if you want a Golden, get one, if you want a Poodle , get one. What makes you want a mix more than a purebred ?


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## hopetocurl

I met a very lovely labradoodle yesterday... Lovely personality that is. Her coat was coarse and she shredded like a Dalmatian! Even my husband mentioned it, 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Markbthompson

Isn' t it funny that the most sought after (and expensive) Golden Doodles, the 2B bred dogs are bred back to poodle for a 75% poodle mix. So why not just get a poodle? A Golden doesn't add much at that point.
Its not a big surprise to me that the local Humane Society get poodle mixes turned in every day but seldom a poodle, never a SPOO. People buy mixes as pups not expecting a 75 pound dog and are too lazy to work with them so at 1-2 they have a ball of energy they can't handle and off they go to get a small dog again they can carry around.
Any dog this size needs a person to work with it daily, not treat it like a teddy bear.


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## irmashanahan

The reason I'm not fond of doodle breeders is that it's deliberate breeding to make money - not for any other reason. By the same token, if people weren't so gullible and wanting to have the latest "fad" there would be no market for the doodles.....There is nothing a doodle can provide that either a poodle and/or lab or golden couldn't provide just as well - except for the supposed "status" of having one.


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## Lou

irmashanahan said:


> The reason I'm not fond of doodle breeders is that it's deliberate breeding to make money - not for any other reason. By the same token, if people weren't so gullible and wanting to have the latest "fad" there would be no market for the doodles.....There is nothing a doodle can provide that either a poodle and/or lab or golden couldn't provide just as well - except for the supposed "status" of having one.


exactly!! I met this "fancy pants lady" at a pet supply store, and she was bragging to me about her goldendoodle.. when I said I have a 100% poodle (the real deal) she said "oh........" with a tone of total disapointment... like "I'm so much more cool than you, cause my dog is a "_*designer*_" breed....... arrrrghhhhh, she was so snobby!

but I made sure to educate her on how poodles are perfect and showed pictures of how cute my poodles look too! and she was so suprised! and I could tell she was thinking "mmmm I should have consider the pure bred poodle that does not in fact shed.." LOL


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## Wild Kitten

Lou said:


> I have a 100% poodle (the real deal)


lol.... I always say " she's a Poodle - THE REAL DEAL!" too to everyone who asks me if Lucia is a cross...... 
But usually people's response is "Oh, she is so beautiful!

Like people are surprised how pretty the real deal can be....... and sweet and friendly and not afraid of anything (be it dogs or humans - of any size)


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## PoodleRick

When ever I was asked if Roxy or Beau were Labrdoodles I always answered: Nope, PoodlePoodle


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## LiliMarlene

carmatblock said:


> OK, folks, what is it about doodles that makes you all so crazy.
> Now, just to be clear, I don't want a doodle, newfdle, cockapoo, dipaty-doo, or any other blended breed. I want a standard parti poodle.
> Since there seems to be such a HUGE bias against any breeder who crosses that line, Please explain why that is. Is it because it takes some needed pups from the potential gene pool, cause once crossed, no can uncross.
> Or is it a cultural thing: anyone who would waste their stock on a line that can never again be registered is just soooo Peg Bundy!
> Or is there another reason I haven't fathomed yet.
> I've known many mixed breeds in the past and have inadvertently created one myself years ago: Newfoundland Female + Chesapeake Bay Retriever male + weak fence = 7 pups of varying coats. All strong and healthy pups, all found good homes, and none registered.
> Lesson learned: I spay early.
> So once again, Why the animosity? I'm sure there is a reason, it is just not apparent to me.


I think some others have mentioned the lack of health testing of parents of "Doodles", that spills over on to the lack of health testing on "parti Poodles". Moreover, partis have been disqualified by ALL fully respected international dog registration groups. Breeding parti poodles is primarily seen as a gimick, just like doodles. There is NO scientific evidence to support their inclusion in the breed standard, beyond the practice that they have been culled for many years. This is not scientific evidence that they are needed to improve the health of Poodles. They come from the same lines as all SP breeders have produced, so there is little if nothing to add to the breed's health. It is about the "cute" spots that might make a dog look like it is wearing a tuxedo - not health. Not yet, anyway.


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## Markbthompson

I get asked every day since she is my service dog and with me in public, it may be the color which is close to red or the beard because when they ask if she is a GD and I say no, she is a real poodle the unknowing always say something crazy like Poodles don't have beards or my favorite yet, poodles aren't that big, they are tiny. 
These are Golden Doodle buyers for sure, no knowledge of the breed but need them to match their designer purses. These same dogs usually end up in a shelter too and that's why I'm opposed to designer mixes ET al. Too often they are bought just as a designer accessory and when they are longer " in fashion" simply discarded. Whenever you meet these people, recommend a chihuahua and a matching handbag instead, they don't deserve anything with poodle in it.


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