# How do I read these health results I asked for?



## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

The top level is Excellent, but Good is a nice result as well. Moving downwards is Fair, then Borderline, Mild, Moderate, Severe. https://www.ofa.org/diseases/hip-dysplasia
If you click on the Menu, under Diseases it gives a bunch of options so you can look up some of the other results.
The only one I would be concerned with is that it looks like he is a carrier for PRA (an eye condition that causes blindness). Assuming this is the father of a potential pup, you would want to make sure the mother is clear.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

See this PF thread: _Genetic Conditions - OFA Blue Book: What to Know In Choosing A Puppy or Breeding_. It has illustrations of how to interpret. 

So, are you thinking about purchasing this 10 y/o male poodle? He's a carrier for PRA-prcd, but a carrier means he has only one gene. A dog would need to inherit two (one from each parent) to develop that eye condition. 

Many 10 year old poodles are energetic and playful, my last one was as strong and healthy as young adult poodle. If this one is healthy he may go on to live another 5, 6, or 7 years and be a wonderful pet.


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## ThePoodlesMoody (Nov 2, 2020)

I'm not looking to buy that dog, he is a listed sire I clicked on as an example. 

This is NOT the dog he would be bred with, but this is one of the dams for an upcoming litter. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2058765

Doesnt the CDDY/CDDY and the distichiasis seem like maybe she might not be the best choice? I have a beagle something mix with IVD and we had to do major surgery on her back when her back legs were paralyzed. I'd HATE to go through that again. Aren't poodles supposed to be bred for those nice long beautiful legs? And from my short reading, distichiasis seems hereditary too - but maybe it isn't so bad because she had an eye exam the year before and was fine? This is starting to feel like rocket science!

I also realized.... one of these dogs is a mini and one is a toy. I know the only difference in them is size, but I SWEAR I read something about not breading a mini to a toy or a mini to a standard. I can't seem to find it. So... any ideas on breeding amongst the sizes?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

ThePoodlesMoody said:


> I also realized.... one of these dogs is a mini and one is a toy.


Just looking for clarification. Are you just noting that they're breeding both toys and miniatures or saying that the miniature dam you listed is being bred to a toy sire?

It's not unusual for breeders to breed more than one variety and to work with other breeders lines. It would be for a very specific reason if they are breeding across variety, trying to add or subtract something specific genetically, but definitely not common and only to be done by very knowledgeable breeders.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

The persistent pupilary membranes, from my reading affected dogs shouldn't be bred but I may be misreading that. 
I would pass myself, I lost my first poodle to IVDD, and currently have a toy with distachisis, who sees an opthmalogist because although managed is on going. It can be surgically repaired.
I also have another toy who has had two knee surgeries, has kidney disease and was diagnosed with terminal cancer a year ago she is only 6.
I personally want the parents of any future puppies of mine to be as healthy as they can be, things still can go wrong but I want to start in a good place. 
Which is why I got my boy from a top show breeder, he is beautiful and healthy.


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## ThePoodlesMoody (Nov 2, 2020)

Rose n Poos, I mean they are breeding a mini to a toy. Which is why I questioned it. Not that she has minis and toys and breeds both separately, but that she is planning a litter between a small mini and a toy.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I would pass on an intervariety breeding of minis and toys. Their structure is different and you're likely to end up with very incorrect structure or heaviness of bone.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

ThePoodlesMoody said:


> Rose n Poos, I mean they are breeding a mini to a toy. Which is why I questioned it. Not that she has minis and toys and breeds both separately, but that she is planning a litter between a small mini and a toy.


I stand by the recommendations to pass on intervariety breeding, except for the reasons I listed above. Yet, here I am with two successive sets of intervariety breeding, and not for the above reasons.

When we got our girls in 2002, I was just starting to become an informed owner. When we got the boys in 2017, I knew so much more, enough that I knew what I was getting into. None will win any ribbons but they're physically sound, so we've been lucky.

My last two sets of poodles we've called minis due to their adult size but they are both toy sire to mini mother. Interestingly to me, in each pair, one definitely looks more toy and the other, more mini. I'm not advocating for it but if you're otherwise interested in the breeder, consider asking why they're pairing the toy and mini. Maybe they are trying to breed something in or out?

Noel and Holly, nearly 3 yrs old










My boys at 3 yrs, Neo and Remo


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## ThePoodlesMoody (Nov 2, 2020)

The explanation Ive been given is that the mini is a carrier for rcd4, but all of her toys are not. She said she did not want to lose the rest of the mini dam's other good genes, so she is doing this. 

But this, in conjunction with the cddy/cddy status of another dog for her other planned litter makes me wary. She seems to do lots of testing and is a big advocate for testing, so I was hoping she is just doing things for a reason I can't understand.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

For this:
"Doesnt the CDDY/CDDY and the distichiasis seem like maybe she might not be the best choice?"

Explanation of Results:
►Chondrodysplasia (CDPA):
Dogs with N/N genotype will not have this form of chondrodysplasia, which causes the short-legged phenotype of certain dog breeds, and cannot transmit this chondrodysplasia variant to their offspring.

►Chondrodystrophy (CDDY):
Dogs with CDDY/CDDY genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. If a CDDY/CDDY dog is bred, all of the puppies in the litter will have shorter legs and are also be at risk for intervertebral disc herniation, regardless of the mate's genotype.

Chondrodystrophy (CDDY and IVDD Risk) and Chondrodysplasia (CDPA) | Veterinary Genetics Laboratory
Chondrodysplasia is a short-legged phenotype characteristic of many dog breeds. Chondrodystrophy, a separate mutation, also includes a short-legged phenotype as well as susceptibility to intervertebral disc disease.
vgl.ucdavis.edu vgl.ucdavis.edu


Additional info on the responsible gene(s) for CDDY/IVDD:

The breeds with a higher frequency of the CFA12 FGF4 insertion are the same breeds identified in the last 50 y as being predisposed to IVDD. Presence of the CFA18 FGF4 insertion is common in many breeds with IVDD, and it is possible that it may contribute to the disease; however, previous mapping within dachshunds, which are reported “fixed” for the CFA18 FGF4 insertion, show segregation of the associated haplotype on chromosome 12 with IVDD, supporting the idea that the CFA12 FGF4 insertion is the critical factor determining disease status (25, 34). Of particular interest is the lack of reports of IVDD cases in breeds such as the cairn terrier and West Highland white terrier, both of which have the CFA18 FGF4 insertion, but not the CFA12 FGF4 insertion. Similarly, the high incidence of IVDD in breeds such as the American cocker spaniel, beagle, and French bulldog that do not have the CFA18 FGF4 insertion but a high frequency of the CFA12 FGF4 insertion supports the idea that FGF4 specifically from CFA12 is contributing to the IVDD phenotype.









FGF4 retrogene on CFA12 is responsible for chondrodystrophy and intervertebral disc disease in dogs


Chondrodystrophy, characterized by short limbs and intervertebral disc disease (IVDD), is a common phenotype in many of the most popular dog breeds, including the dachshund, beagle, and French bulldog. Here, we report the identification of a FGF4 retrogene insertion on chromosome 12, the second...




www.pnas.org




----
After a while of learning and investigating, it's possible to find yourself lost in the rabbit hole rather than feeling confident in your ability to make choices.
The hope in becoming informed is in recognizing the risks and deciding which you are willing and able to live with. The perfect choice doesn't always come along. 
I'm not saying here to stop learning or stop asking, but only you can decide what level of risk is acceptable for you and your poodle.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

ThePoodlesMoody said:


> The explanation Ive been given is that the mini is a carrier for rcd4, but all of her toys are not. She said she did not want to lose the rest of the mini dam's other good genes, so she is doing this.
> 
> But this, in conjunction with the cddy/cddy status of another dog for her other planned litter makes me wary. She seems to do lots of testing and is a big advocate for testing, so I was hoping she is just doing things for a reason I can't understand.


Regarding her mini female with PRA-prcd, sounds to me like she's too cheap to pay for stud service with a healthy minipoo male that doesn't have those genes.

In her other situation of still planning to breed a CDDY poodle to a non-CDDY poodle, that's just stubbornness. She may "big" on testing, but she strikes me as finding out bad news but to avoid neutering/spaying, she's going to go forth with making whatever profit she can regardless. IMHO, as a breeder she's a walking disaster that's bad for the breed.

Caveat emptor. I hope you run from this breeder even if it means forfeiting any deposit you might have put down.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Rose n Poos said:


> ►Chondrodystrophy (CDDY):
> Dogs with CDDY/CDDY genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. If a CDDY/CDDY dog is bred, all of the puppies in the litter will have shorter legs and are also be at risk for intervertebral disc herniation, regardless of the mate's genotype.


To see how this runs in the lines, view her vertical pedigree on OFA








Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Use our advanced search tool to find information and reports by registration number, animal name, breed, special programs, report type and more.




www.ofa.org





She has the CDDY inherited from previous generations. The breeder does have the option of using a tested outside stud but chooses not to for the eye condition. The continued breeding of CDDY dogs does puzzle me. There could be information I'm not understanding clearly. The breeder could be depending on the histories of the lines bred not having developed the life altering condition. Only the breeder could answer why. 

As you dive back into the pedigree, it's not uncommon for this breeder to do the toy/mini intervariety breeding. I haven't had enough coffee yet to follow it back too far, but they do breed outside her own kennel, FWTW. 

I haven't checked to see if any are being or have been shown in the conformation ring. 

If this is absolutely true "If a CDDY/CDDY dog is bred, *all of the puppies* in the litter *will have shorter legs *and are also be at risk for intervertebral disc herniation, *regardless of the mate's genotype*" then it doesn't seem likely that any in this specific line are being shown as they can't meet the breed standard.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Doing an internet search brings up some interesting information which brackets some of the questions raised here. I haven't looked thru them, just skimmed so far. This breeder is testing beyond OFA, is actively involved in attention to genetic disorders, and is showing the poodle linked in OFA above, and others. I wouldn't rule them out if I were looking. Answers from the breeder to some of these questions could be valuable knowledge. 






Paw Print Pedigrees - Breeder Profile


Paw Print Pedigrees breeder profile for Eva Marie Mitchell. I am a small hobby breeder and am an AKC Breeder of Merit. I have 33 home bred champions and many other dogs with performance titles.You can find more information at...




www.pawprintgenetics.com










Collaboration Aids Discovery Of SLC13A1 Mutation For Dwarfism In Miniatures


The recent discovery of the gene mutation that causes a crippling dwarfism in Miniature Poodles, and the subsequent development of a direct DNA test to identify carriers, represents a successful collaboration between breeders and researchers.




www.purinaproclub.com













InfoDog - The Dog Fancier's Complete Resource for information about AKC Dog Show Events, and Dog Products and Services


InfoDog offers an exclusive database (and search utilities) of current and historical AKC Dog Show



m.infodog.com


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## ThePoodlesMoody (Nov 2, 2020)

Okay. So. Here is her exact wording on the mini-to-toy breeding, which she volunteered before I even asked.

"_We have testing now for rcd4 which was not available before she was born. This is old age blindness in Poodles. It is a simple Mendelian recessive. I tested all my dogs when the test came out. She tested affected. We do not want to waste the good genes she has but can safely breed her to a dog that is clear and not produce affected dogs. We did not find any toys with this and tested him as clear. His confirmation is wonderful so this is a type to type breeding._ "

She says it is a "type to type breeding" but after googling I still dont understand what that means. Does she mean this is basically the same as toy-to-toy breeding? Honestly, she has been entirely upfront about all of this. She does not seem defensive at all, and has been more than willing to talk. Really, I am the one feeling stupid because she will explain one thing and then the next thing I know, there is more I still dont understand! I never expected breeder shopping would be so hard. 😂

She doesn't have my money so walking away, for me, is easy. HOWEVER, with that said, I really value how transparent she has been. I like how she was choosy about ME and what MY intentions were for the puppy. I like how she works hard with her puppies to begin socialization and training before they come home. She was recommended by somebody from the local Poodle Club. These are all things that sound like a good breeder. It's just... ugh. Those test results don't seem great, but I am not an expert at all. I also have had the thought that, okay, I've never even seen any other dogs tested for the CDDY gene, maybe it is more common than I thought and most breeders just don't know because they don't test? Like am I punishing her for providing a full more complete picture, when other dogs are easier to seem "perfect" because there are fewer tests run on them? T

I really am not saying anything bad about her at all, so I think it should be okay. I really think she loves her dogs and is trying to do well by them. All pictures she sends clearly show them being beloved family members in a normal home environment. I have more overall positives than red flags, so I am going to continue discussing with her and hopefully I can learn a thing or two about her reasoning and experience.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Oooh, I know her and have talked to her in the past, so let me take my foot out of my mouth. She is an excellent, dedicated and honest breeder who has been doing this for decades, long before DNA testing was available. Her poodles really are a "dream". She is so careful that won't even allow bringing in an outside dog for stud b/c she won't risk it having brucellosis (an STD) and contaminating her other poodles. I know this for a fact b/c she's one of the breeders I spoke about getting my girl mated in early 2019. She was very kind about it too. On type of this, she's elderly, so with Covid, you know she's not taking chances.

This explains why she would breed her female minipoo (who is a carrier of rcd4-PRA, which is the same or a variant of PRA-prcd) to one of her toy males that does not have the gene. Statistically some of these pups will be clear and others carriers (which means they won't develop the eye condition). 

You said she is breeding 'type to type'. This is where the body type matches, and should lessen the chances of some pups having heads a little too big or small for their bodies, or other odd physical attributes, like the front, back, or all 4 wheels on a pickup truck used for a small car, causing a sloping back. In this planned mating, if one of the pups turns out to have a slightly odd body shape, she will point it out if it's not visible to you. And she generally sells her pups as pets not to be bred, so you'd get a poodle that's cute but not perfect for the show ring.



ThePoodlesMoody said:


> But this, in conjunction with the cddy/cddy status of another dog for her other planned litter makes me wary.


Okay, so the cddy/cddy status means that dog has two copies of the gene, which it got from each parent. I would expect it to have legs shorter than usual for the poodle breed standard. A dog that is N/N means Normal; it does not have the genes. A dog that is N/cddy means it has one gene each. It's unclear if she's breeding the affected (cddy/cddy) to a clear dog or a carrier; I'd hope it would be to a clear dog (although I'd rather see her use a stud from another kennel w/o the bad gene.)

I still would be take a pass on that particular little, for this reason: 

_Chondrodystrophy (CDDY)__: 
_

Dogs with *N/N* genotype do not have this chondrodystrophy variant and therefore are not predicted to be at increased risk for intervertebral disc disease. 


Dogs with *N/CDDY* genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. They will transmit this CDDY variant to 50% of their offspring. Matings with N/N genotype dogs are predicted to produce 50% shorter-legged puppies at risk for intervertebral disc herniation.


Dogs with *CDDY/CDDY* genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. If a CDDY/CDDY dog is bred, all of the puppies in the litter will have shorter legs and are also be at risk for intervertebral disc herniation, regardless of the mate's genotype

So in a N/CDDY pup, there is still some risk it would one day have disc herniation. You problably would not want to do agility sports with a pup that has one or both CDDY genes and restrict jumping off furniture as it gets older and to have pet insurance.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

ThePoodlesMoody said:


> I really value how transparent she has been. I like how she was choosy about ME and what MY intentions were for the puppy. I like how she works hard with her puppies to begin socialization and training before they come home. She was recommended by somebody from the local Poodle Club. These are all things that sound like a good breeder


The relationship you build with your breeder is absolutely important. What does your gut, not your spreadsheet say? You are doing so much more learning and checking than many do. Do you feel you have enough information to trust your gut now? You can keep asking questions, of course. What answer would be a dealbreaker now?

Is this a breeder you feel comfortable with?

If you haven't already, I'd review whatever purchase contract/health warranty/guarantee they offer and make sure you understand all of it and can accept and live with the terms. That can sometimes help in making a decision.



Vita said:


> I still would be take a pass on that particular little, for this reason:





ThePoodlesMoody said:


> This is NOT the dog he would be bred with, but this is one of the dams for an upcoming litter. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2058765


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

This has been such an informative thread to read! I’m glad you’re walking away from a toy to mini breeder. I’m a novice, but that doesn’t seem right on it’s face, no matter how likable the breeder. My default is the PCA recommended tests and I’m going to take a wild guess that they would not condone the match. Good mini’s are hard to find, but if you are patient and persistent, it will happen.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

ThePoodlesMoody said:


> I also have had the thought that, okay, I've never even seen any other dogs tested for the CDDY gene,


Complete sequencing of the dog genome began in 2003 and was completed in 2005.








Dog genome sequence and analysis published in Nature


An international research team led by scientists at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard announced today the completion of a high-quality genome sequence of the domestic dog, together with a catalog of 2.5 million specific genetic differences across several dog breeds.



www.eurekalert.org





The CDPA retrogene was first described in 2009. The CDDY retrogene was discovered and described in 2017.


VetGen - Veterinary Genetic Services



This is still all quite new. Before DNA testing came about, and became readily available to people outside the original small scientific circle, phenotype testing (basically, the you-can-see-it physical expression of a condition) and knowledge of pedigree and traits transmitted thru lines were all there was to go on.



I understand and generally agree with the feelings to not breed intervariety by those who are not knowledgeable, but it has been done historically, not only toy/mini but also mini/standard with specific purposes in mind. I've looked off and on for a year or more trying to find any official stance from any breed club or registry, with no real luck yet. The closest I can find is worded sort of vaguely in the Illustrated Breed Standard. I'll put that at the bottom.

Read all or skip to
I. Introduction
A. Breed history





Genetic Diversity Testing for Miniature Poodles


Overview The Veterinary Genetics Laboratory (VGL), in collaboration with Dr. Niels C. Pedersen and staff, has developed a panel of short tandem repeat (STR) markers that will determine genetic diversity within the genome and in the Dog Leukocyte Antigen (DLA) class I and II regions. This test...




vgl.ucdavis.edu





Read all or use "Find on Page" browser feature to search "intervariety"


https://www.betterbred.com/2018/06/25/breeder-spotlight-2-tiara-poodles/



Read all or skip to
I. Introduction
A. Breed history


https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/sites/g/files/dgvnsk8836/files/files/page/ToyPoodle20191010.pdf



Read all or skip to
Alice Lang Rogers, _The Miniature Poodle: Glimpses Past and Future_ (Mrs. Rogers was AKC _Gazette_ Poodle columnist during the later 1930's; this may come from the _Gazette_, 1937.)

It seems the Red poodle we know today comes from a mini/standard cross





Red Poodles | History, Color Changes and Breeding


Learn all about the red Poodle. Discover how this stunning color was created, the genes that make red and much more information.




www.allpoodleinfo.com






Account Suspended



Some serious sciency info here. Read all or skip to Context 3


https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Genetic-differentiation-between-four-size-classes-of-poodles_tbl1_5626059



and

an interesting thread here in PF








Registering Inter-Variety Offspring with AKC


Hey, The three Poodle sizes are considered varieties of the one and same breed, correct? Is the offspring of any inter-variety breeding registrable with the AKC?




www.poodleforum.com





From the Illustrated Breed Standard:
Size, Proportion, Substance
Size: The Standard Poodle is over 15 inches at the highest point of the shoulders. Any
Poodle which is 15 inches or less in height shall be disqualified from competition as a Standard
Poodle.
The Miniature Poodle is 15 inches or under at the highest point of the shoulders, with a
minimum height in excess of 10 inches. Any Poodle which is over 15 inches or is 10 inches or
less at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as a Miniature
Poodle.
The Toy Poodle is 10 inches Or under at the highest point Of the shoulders. Any Poodle
which is more than 10 inches at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from
competition as a Toy Poodle.
*As long as the Toy Poodle is definitely a Toy Poodle, and the Miniature Poodle a Miniature 
Poodle, both in balance and proportion for the Variety, diminutiveness shall be the deciding fac- 
tor when all other points are equal.*


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

My feelings on intervariety breedings are that there should be a genuine reason for it. I'm more okay with the idea of intervariety breedings to outcross standards due to the small gene pool in spoos. It seems like the most appropriate way to increase genetic diversity. But of course should only be done very carefully with health and structure in mind.

I probably would not agree with this breeder's reasons for intervariety breeding. I can understand their point of view, but I feel that when breeding dogs you have to breed with dogs outside of your small gene pool. Otherwise your lines will get horribly inbred. So I am not that fear of brucellosis makes sense to me. It seems that it's a necessary risk if you want to breed with a healthy gene pool. And there is a test for brucellosis. You can't just keep crossing your own dogs together forever.


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## ThePoodlesMoody (Nov 2, 2020)

I agree, Rose! Everything I could find about intervariety poodles was like, well, it's probably not a great idea BUT sometimes people do it for XYZ so it can be okay in some circumstances. And really, all the reasons NOT to do it were saying that the dog might come out looking silly with two disparate shaped dog parts smashed together, or it might bring into play maladies from the mini line to the toy line or vice versa. BUT. If the dogs are truly well matched in size and shape and she has done the genetic tests for all of these variables, I feel more comfortable with it. 

The CDDY/CDDY is enough for me to say no to that dam, but her other breeding I think I would feel comfortable with. The main reason I am saying no to the CDDY/CDDY dam is because my current dog, whom we are about to put to sleep, has had to have disc surgery for IVDD that left her hind end entirely paralyzed. It was so hard for us to go through the surgery and watch her struggle. She went on to live 5 more years after surgery, but avoiding the whole thing would have been so much better.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

@ThePoodlesMoody , I'm curious. Did you see a picture of the CDDY dam? Is she actually short/long? You wouldn't think a breeder with show-quality dogs, would be breeding a dog that is so far out of the standard. If she doesn't appear to have off proportions, I wonder whether that makes a difference in the likelihood that a dog will develop IVDD. 
(Not a question about this breeder in particular, but generally how the genetic results compare to real life)


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

What I'm still puzzled by is the lack of a testing number associated with the chondodystrophy result. Is it combined with the CDPA? As you back up thru Marlis' pedigree, you find that her sire, Yoda, shows the same cddy/cddy listed as a result in the vertical pedigree but no test listed at all, either on OFA or PawPrint.
Remember that testing for this wasn't even available til 2017, if I read that info linked above correctly.

Breeder page PawPrint





Paw Print Pedigrees - Breeder Profile


Paw Print Pedigrees breeder profile for Eva Marie Mitchell. I am a small hobby breeder and am an AKC Breeder of Merit. I have 33 home bred champions and many other dogs with performance titles.You can find more information at...




www.pawprintgenetics.com




Marlis test detail page
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2058765 

Vertical pedigree (selected chondrodystrophy)








Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Use our advanced search tool to find information and reports by registration number, animal name, breed, special programs, report type and more.




www.ofa.org





Both Marlis and Yoda, as well as others, are being/have been shown at various kennel club events and Yoda has a ch somewhere along the way.

So, is the cddy/cddy listed incorrectly? If the dogs don't stand a chance of winning due to structure, why would a breeder with a long and successful career put those dogs out, if they weren't at least structurally sound.








InfoDog - The Dog Fancier's Complete Resource for information about AKC Dog Show Events, and Dog Products and Services


InfoDog offers an exclusive database (and search utilities) of current and historical AKC Dog Show



m.infodog.com












InfoDog - The Dog Fancier's Complete Resource for information about AKC Dog Show Events, and Dog Products and Services


InfoDog offers an exclusive database (and search utilities) of current and historical AKC Dog Show



m.infodog.com





Long list of titled dogs here





DreemPoodles Toys and MiniaturesDreemPoodles Toys and Miniatures







www.poodlebreeders.com





There's incomplete info here, but at this point, I'm betting on the breeder to be doing what's right.


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## ThePoodlesMoody (Nov 2, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> You can't just keep crossing your own dogs together forever.


I missed your comment last night, but I did want to say that she does use outside dogs at least for her own litters sometimes. An upcoming litter uses a g8rcreek stud for example. 

I haven't heard back from her yet about the CDDY. If my past interactions are any indication, I am sure she will explain for me. I have seen pictures of the dog and it didn't look off to me, but I also am a purebred poodle first-timer and not an AKC judge. lol I can say the dog earned some points, but I don't really know what the means because I don't know all of the steps/requirements for earning AKC titles.

I feel like she has a lot of experience and at least has some reasoning for why she does stuff, so I'm not turned off or walking away just yet. I've been learning a lot, really.


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## ThePoodlesMoody (Nov 2, 2020)

WOW. I am so glad I asked her about the CDDY gene! I thought you might want to hear some of what she had to say. She is a wealth of information! She answered all of my questions but also sent me this great quote from Barbara Hoopes, who is a geneticist at Colgate and also breeds toy poodles:

_I've been asked to make a public post on the CDDY/IVDD mutation in poodles because it is upsetting a lot of people. This mutation was found first to be associated with IVDD (Intervertebral Disk Disease) in Tollers by the Bannasch lab at UC Davis. IVDD can cause very serious back issues, and small poodles are known to have a higher risk for this disorder compared to other breeds (Beagles, Cockers, and some other breeds are also at high risk). The same mutation found in Tollers is found at high frequency in these other breeds known to be clinically at higher risk for IVDD.

Here is what you need to know as owners or breeders of small poodles:

1) The CDDY/IVDD mutation is NOT a deterministic mutation, but increases risk, in a dominant fashion. If a dog has two copies of the recessive prcd mutation they WILL go blind. The prcd mutation is deterministic. Dogs with one or two copies of the CDDY/IVDD mutation are at a HIGHER RISK for the disorder, but the MAJORITY of dogs with the mutation will NOT develop IVDD. We don't know the exact risk factor but UC Davis is trying to determine this.

2). The CDDY/IVDD mutation is found at extremely high frequency in toy and miniature poodles, which undoubtedly explains why they are higher risk. UC Davis estimates that only 16% of dogs would be clear of the mutation, and more than a third of the dogs they tested in their study had two copies. This means that we CAN'T eliminate all dogs with the mutation from our breeding pool! That would eliminate most dogs. This would be BAD.

3) So what do you do if your dog has one or two copies of the mutation? Be aware that they MIGHT develop IVDD and keep an eye out for symptoms. It is more likely they will be fine. If you can, try to breed them to a dog with which you will get offspring with fewer copies of the mutation. We can eventually move away from the mutation in the breed, but you do NOT want to throw these dogs out of the gene pool if they otherwise are of breeding quality. By restricting the gene pool we would be more likely to select for some other disorder we don't know about by making a "population bottleneck". This isn't just me giving this advice. This is the advice of the group who isolated the mutation, who are veterinary geneticists.

4) Test your dog at UC Davis, not Embark. The Embark test for CDDY/IVDD does NOT look for the actual mutation, but instead for a "linked haplotype". For toy poodles it is wildly inaccurate--for 24 dogs from three different breeders, only 8 dogs agreed with results from UCDavis (which found the mutation and developed a direct mutation test) and 16 did not agree. This is an ACCURACY rate of only 33%! If you have Embark results, I strongly suggest you test at another company. GenSol and PawPrints also do the test. I will be writing Embark and others about this lack of accuracy.

5) UCDavis says they have never found this mutation in a standard poodle. However, if your standard has miniature in their pedigree, they could definitely have a copy, since so many small poodles have at least one copy.
Hope this is helpful. I will make my letter to Embark about their test available when it is done._

Really great information! This test is new this year, so I am sure it isn't even on a lot of breeders' radars. After all of this (and more!) discussion, I really like her as a breeder. She seems to be trying to do everything she can to improve poodles as a breed and produce really happy healthy pups.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Thanks for keeping on with this. That helps fill in the missing puzzle pieces.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

ThePoodlesMoody said:


> Barbara Hoopes, who is a geneticist at Colgate and also breeds toy poodles:


I knew her name was familiar. She's Silvabirch 🐩


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