# pet price??



## Mercury's Mom (Dec 6, 2009)

I filled out an aplication on a well known spoo breeders web site just to lay the groung work and get info for the future. The info I got back suprised me. The breeder charges $1200 for whites and blacks and $1800 for brown. All dogs must be fixed by 5 months which means no showing etc. Why the heck would anyone pay that for a pet? Why are the browns more expencive if they are just going to be pets? She does have striking spoos, but still. She does testing, but so do other spoo breeders who ask half that for a pet. It shocked me.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Because she can


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## Mercury's Mom (Dec 6, 2009)

Oops, it was $1500 for colors other than brown, and $1800 for brown. I assume shipping isn't included in that.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I charge $1500 and I may bump that to $1800 for the next litter. That is the going rate for a show/performance bred litter on the Front Range. Heck, even the puppy mill in our area charges $1,000+ and more for certain colors like Sable/Parti and wow... White (guess their colors are all so muddles that true "White" is actually rare.)

Why is Brown more expensive? I don't charge more for Brown, but it is a recessive color and harder to find. A well bred Brown? Very hard to find!!!!

BTW... who is the breeder? PM me if you want. I like to keep track of anyone breeding good quality Browns.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Mercury's Mom said:


> I filled out an aplication on a well known spoo breeders web site just to lay the groung work and get info for the future. The info I got back suprised me. The breeder charges $1200 for whites and blacks and $1800 for brown. All dogs must be fixed by 5 months which means no showing etc. Why the heck would anyone pay that for a pet? Why are the browns more expencive if they are just going to be pets? She does have striking spoos, but still. She does testing, but so do other spoo breeders who ask half that for a pet. It shocked me.


If it is a good breeder - with all the must haves, that is not a bad price at all. Just going off price.


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## Rockporters (Jan 14, 2010)

$1700-2500 seems to be the going rate here regardless of pedigree. Luckily we do have a number of good breeders around. The application process can sometimes be intensive (before ever getting to see a puppy), and often the breeder picks the puppy for you, which may drive people to the less than meticulous breeders. While most breeders are selling with limited registrations, I haven't really found there to be a price difference between show and non-show pups so far, but typically the latter is done as a co-ownership.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

In Canada it seems $1,200 to $2,500 is the norm for pets. I think when you are getting into the two thousands, that is bizarre, even if you CAN get it. It drives me crazy when people will pay that from a breeder whose dogs are no better (and maybe LESS testing or none at all, etc) than the other guy who is charging $1,300 and tests his breeding dogs. It seems sometimes humans have more money than brains!!


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## Mercury's Mom (Dec 6, 2009)

Wow, I guess I am just used to the byb prices around here. No wonder most people around here have not such high quality spoos. Ive heard people complain about dogs costing over $400 so I bet most would faint shopping for a well built spoo. I sure am uneducated, but that's why I love this forum. If that's the going rate for pets Im sure it's going to be a chunk when I finally get a show girl. I know she'll be worth it, it's only $ after all.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> In Canada it seems $1,200 to $2,500 is the norm for pets. I think when you are getting into the two thousands, that is bizarre, even if you CAN get it. It drives me crazy when people will pay that from a breeder whose dogs are no better (and maybe LESS testing or none at all, etc) than the other guy who is charging $1,300 and tests his breeding dogs. It seems sometimes humans have more money than brains!!


Yep seems thats the outcome anyway. $$$. I tell ya, I have seen a breeder change her looks a bit and her bust size. Life must be goodhwell: That was bad......


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Don't mean to offend anyone-but that is a hell of a lot of money to spend on a dog (I'm sure some of you have spent more for quality show dogs, that is understandable and thats you), especially for pet price, I mean I got bills to pay!The economy is bad! LOL! For people looking for a purebred dog for the sole purpose of companionship, I suggest looking into a rescue group, 25% of dogs nationwide in shelters are purebred.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

mercymoon said:


> Don't mean to offend anyone-but that is a hell of a lot of money to spend on a dog (I'm sure some of you have spent more for quality show dogs, that is understandable and thats you), especially for pet price, I mean I got bills to pay!The economy is bad! LOL! For people looking for a purebred dog for the sole purpose of companionship, I suggest looking into a rescue group, 25% of dogs nationwide in shelters are purebred.


It is a lot for the times we are in, agree. And I couldn't agree more there are some great poodle rescues out there if you can pass the qualifications.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Olie said:


> Yep seems thats the outcome anyway. $$$. I tell ya, I have seen a breeder change her looks a bit and her bust size. Life must be goodhwell: That was bad......


Or relocate to a higher scale home, or totally renovate their home on puppy money. SHEESH!!!


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Olie said:


> It is a lot for the times we are in, agree. And I couldn't agree more there are some great poodle rescues out there if you can pass the qualifications.


Glad you understand my opinion, my poodle "Cash" I did buy and I said I wasn't buying another dog after I started volunteering for my animal shelter and saw the "over population problem" in effect-it is heart breaking to see such wonderful dogs put down. When adult Christmas comes...aka income tax I will be getting Cash neutered.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

It is a lot of money and I get very put off by people who are rude or dismissive of people who balk at paying that price. My grandparents were relatively well off but that was b/c they watched their pennies and didn't buy things they didn't need. (They drove used cars when they could've afforded brand new Caddies for example.) I'm not saying a breeder shouldn't charge that if they are investing a lot of time and money in their program, but they should understand that $1500 isn't peanuts. Everyone should understand that IMO. I'm willing to pay that price for a puppy out of health tested, champion parents. Charging more for a certain color would cause me to take a closer look, but if I were dead set on a brown and everything else was in order, I'd pay the extra $300. 

And yes many people have more money than sense. I think part of the reason the whole "designer dog" fad took off, is b/c some people want to brag about their $4000 "Australian Labradoodle."


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Austalian Labradoodle?! LOL

EDIT: They exist! http://www.australianlabradoodleclub.us/


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Or relocate to a higher scale home, or totally renovate their home on puppy money. SHEESH!!!


Wow that is pretty good money . Relocate or renovate on PUPPY money ? Must not be reinvesting much back into the dogs ..


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

I don't think its fair to make such judgments on people when we have no idea what their finance status is or where they might get other money or where they have original money from and how they may spend their money. I see lots of weatlh envy these days and I think its a sad statement when people begrudge others who have money or spend it the way they want to. The US is a great place to live and we all have choiced about what we spend and what we make and how we make it. We should all be happy that people can be sucessful and if they want to spend 5K on a dog more power to them. I just hope that someday I can do the same someday and not be questioned about where my money came from and how I should have spent it if they don't agree with what I want.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Wow that is pretty good money . Relocate or renovate on PUPPY money ? Must not be reinvesting much back into the dogs ..


There are tons of breeders doing it. I agree with Poodlepal though. We don't always know where the people who breed get their money. Sometimes it isn't all from the dogs. BUT, someone who breeds reds had a video on her web site not too long ago giving people a tour of her kitchen which had been recently renovated, stating it was all done with puppy money, and they'd be renovating the rest of their house witrh the next litter!!! Even if that is true, it is not the smartest customer relations.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> I don't think its fair to make such judgments on people when we have no idea what their finance status is or where they might get other money or where they have original money from and how they may spend their money. I see lots of weatlh envy these days and I think its a sad statement when people begrudge others who have money or spend it the way they want to. The US is a great place to live and we all have choiced about what we spend and what we make and how we make it. We should all be happy that people can be sucessful and if they want to spend 5K on a dog more power to them. I just hope that someday I can do the same someday and not be questioned about where my money came from and how I should have spent it if they don't agree with what I want.


Right on !!!! Judge not lest you be judged yourself


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Poodlepal said:


> I don't think its fair to make such judgments on people when we have no idea what their finance status is or where they might get other money


This is very True I see many young men in LA with 24" rims and nice flashy cars ( bentleys, range rovers, aston martins ) and see they live in a apt LMAO.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> This is very True I see many young men in LA with 24" rims and nice flashy cars ( bentleys, range rovers, aston martins ) and see they live in a apt LMAO.


Very true! There was even a post on here about someones chest getting larger.. OMG !


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> There are tons of breeders doing it. I agree with Poodlepal though. We don't always know where the people who breed get their money. Sometimes it isn't all from the dogs. BUT, someone who breeds reds had a video on her web site not too long ago giving people a tour of her kitchen which had been recently renovated, stating it was all done with puppy money, and they'd be renovating the rest of their house witrh the next litter!!! Even if that is true, it is not the smartest customer relations.


....yeah, maybe not real professional. I know in the business I am in the higher ups semed to raise a brow at the BMW that a regional purchased recently) everyone see's you. They dont want to gve the wrong impression because of how flat sales are all over in retail and does not like middle managment and above looking as if they are loaded and we are cutting the managers labor hours every week......I guess its a matter of good taste some might say.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Very true! There was even a post on here about someones chest getting larger.. OMG !


Yeah that was me, and it was just jealousy, I MUST ADMIT!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> Very true! There was even a post on here about someones chest getting larger.. OMG !


That is too funny..... Since I live in LA its normal to see people living above their means....


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

HA HA We just had a co worker get hers done and she looks GOOD ! HAHA You are funny ....
What people choose to do with puppy money is up to them , their business IMHO , frankley I just dont see it, as every penny we make goes right back into our dogs... With testing vet visits.God forbid a puppy should get sick .... Food ....Crates... I could go on and on. Plus what we paid for the dogs to begin with OMG .. Pet show what ever it is all expensive..


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## kanatadoggroomer (Jan 24, 2010)

That is the going price for my dogs in Ontario, Canada. I wanted a breeer who had done all the testing (and the dogs passed). 

Another option is to foster for a breeder. My youngest dog Rainee is my foster dog. She is basically mine (except on the registration papers). I've had her since 8 weeks old and I pay all her food/vet bills except the testing/breeding bills. If she passes her testing, she will be returned to the breeder this summer for one breeding and then she is signed over to me at no cost. As the breeder explained to me, it is very expensive to keep future breeding bitches but most importantly . . .it is difficult to find good homes for a mature bitch once she has had her litter(s). This way, the dog has been in a loving home all it's life and will have a good home to go to after breeding. 

I think fostering is a win/win situation for the breeder and the foster family.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I do not see it as such .... but is is just me LMAO Idealist till I die 

*Some * breeders make A LOT of money some don't , as with everything else . I definitely had a chance of seeing one "developing" her wealth from "the stretch" and since she did it all the "right way" - more power to her !!!!

What I abhor is seeing gimmicky BYBs getting "puppy money" :wacko:- that is just too sad ....and wrong.... on so many levels .....


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## onlypoodles4me (May 18, 2009)

Personally I have set a goal and saved my money for each and every purchased poodle. It is a lot of money but I feel that it is worth it and very rewarding to set a goal and meet it. We dont have tons of money but I also want what I want, and will save to get it! 
Some people are shocked at what I have paid for a dog, at the same time I have knows people to pay way more for a pet quality in our area.

As for rescue, we have had two standard poodle rescues. Our first died at just under 11 years of age, with a disk problem. (he had the worst conformation but a lovely personality) He had the problem from about 3 years of age and it was manageable but still affected his activities.
The second rescue was a grooming client whom we had boarded frequently. She is of some show breeding (got a glimpse of her pedigree years ago) but had bloated at age 2 and had her stomach tacked at the cost of 2500.00. (luckily that was long before we got her) She looks like a dog who would bloat and torsion, very narrow, and deep chested.
I love my rescues but they can be a real crap shoot. Around here there are not many standards looking for homes.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Yes, but it is interesting how much same quality puppy price can differ depending of the state and country !!!

I do not plan to spend 3000$ for the same quality puppy that I can get for 1,500 $ !!!


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

I figure you have to average it out over the life of the dog. Say you pay 1200 and your dog lives 12 years. That's only 100 a year! What else brings you so much joy for such a bargain price. I'm all for rescuing as well and by no means think that's second choice. But if you want a purebred quality dog well that's what you have to pay. You could end up paying a lot more than that on an unhealthy byb dog anyway. One major vet bill can set you back wwwaaayyy more than that initial purchase price.


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## jade cat (Sep 22, 2009)

This is the sort of price folk over in the UK pay for there Labradoodles!!!
Add from popular uk dog selling site. 

Price : £800 
Location : Hampshire 
Number : Dogs 1 & Bitches 2

Available : Now 
Age of ad : 2 Days 
We have a fabulous litter of F3b Labradoodles, mum Kushti is a third generation Blue Labrdoodle and dad is Hedley our Brown Miniature Poodle. Both have superb temperaments and are fully health tested. Mum Hip score 8:6 Elbows 0 Clear eye certificate. Optigen prcd-PRA: CLEAR Dad Hip Score : BVA 5:5 Clear eye certificate. PRA prcd : CLEAR Hedley is DNA profiled and is tested for 28 different diseases including Hypothyroidism, Narcolepsy, Muscular Dystrophy, Hemophelia and is NEGATIVE for all. Our puppies are reared indoors to the highest standard, we give an extensive puppy pack, pups are micro chipped and we give a copy of the book 'The Perfect Puppy' by Gwen Bailey Available 2 Black Girls, 1 Black Boy


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## jade cat (Sep 22, 2009)

And this is the sort of price for a very cute Mini poo,

Price : £850 
Location : Shropshire 
Number : Dogs 1 & Bitches 1

Available : Now 
Age of ad : 10 Days 
1 Male and 1 Female Brown Ready to go to their new homes Fully vaccinated at 8 and 12 weeks Microchipped Optigen clear by parentage Wormed regulary well socialised home


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> I figure you have to average it out over the life of the dog. Say you pay 1200 and your dog lives 12 years. That's only 100 a year! What else brings you so much joy for such a bargain price. I'm all for rescuing as well and by no means think that's second choice. But if you want a purebred quality dog well that's what you have to pay. You could end up paying a lot more than that on an unhealthy byb dog anyway. One major vet bill can set you back wwwaaayyy more than that initial purchase price.


....Good thought process on this one


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## Moxie (Jan 25, 2010)

Mercury's Mom said:


> Wow, I guess I am just used to the byb prices around here. No wonder most people around here have not such high quality spoos. Ive heard people complain about dogs costing over $400 so I bet most would faint shopping for a well built spoo. I sure am uneducated, but that's why I love this forum. If that's the going rate for pets Im sure it's going to be a chunk when I finally get a show girl. I know she'll be worth it, it's only $ after all.


Well although it might be the "norm" of prices from allot of breeders I don't believe in it,and my co-breeder doesnt either,ESP. now in this hard economy. Just so you know,just because they can get it from some,doesnt make it right. I will just add though,when it comes to those of us who are showing and testing our dogs it is VERY expensive.So,in many ways,this is why because when we do have the rare blessed occasion to have a litter it is only then that we may be lucky enough if all goes well to recoup any of these monies.BYB are only breeding "to make money" not improve their dogs or the breed.Big difference.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Moxie said:


> Well although it might be the "norm" of prices from allot of breeders I don't believe in it,and my co-breeder doesnt either,ESP. now in this hard economy. Just so you know,just because they can get it from some,doesnt make it right. I will just add though,when it comes to those of us who are showing and testing our dogs it is VERY expensive.So,in many ways,this is why because when we do have the rare blessed occasion to have a litter it is only then that we may be lucky enough if all goes well to recoup any of these monies.BYB are only breeding "to make money" not improve their dogs or the breed.Big difference.


Which is why the general pet population should put them out of business by only buying from those people that do the testing and deserve that kind of money. The ones that don't do it and don't show are asking that price because they can and because people will pay it. They don't deserve it and no one should ever pay it. Unfortunately though, where there is a buyer there is a seller.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Which is why the general pet population should put them out of business by only buying from those people that do the testing and deserve that kind of money. The ones that don't do it and don't show are asking that price because they can and because people will pay it. They don't deserve it and no one should ever pay it. Unfortunately though, where there is a buyer there is a seller.


Ladies...I have shared on here why I cannot show at this time (agoraphobia) and hope the fact that we now have a show puppy in a show/breeding home, and 2 ladies who will be going for their CGC's, and one looking toward a rally title that this may exclude me for now on your opinion about breeders not showing not being deserving.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Ladies...I have shared on here why I cannot show at this time (agoraphobia) and hope the fact that we now have a show puppy in a show/breeding home, and 2 ladies who will be going for their CGC's, and one looking toward a rally title that this may exclude me for now on your opinion about breeders not showing not being deserving.


You are trying and that really does matter to me (can't speak for someone else) yes. It's the people hanging on the coat tails of someone else (champions 3 gens back) asking $1500 or more for their puppies that bothers me.


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## Sparkle&Spunk (Jan 26, 2010)

It must be my family values, or maybe the fact that in my past I've never been able to afford a dog for $1K!! But our poodles have all been gifts, rescues, or shock and awe- back yard breeders perhaps??

Of our four dogs, none(!!thank goodness!!) have had any serious medical issues
Goldie is nearly 13 years old, she has arthritis, that's about it- the vets thought she was developing cateracts in her eyes but after changing her diet the cloudiness went away!
Ocsi is almost 7 and although he had one scare that we thought might have been a sezuire (the vet thinks so too) he's been such a healthy boy
Maggie is a poodle mix of some kind and she has the stomach of iron (she steals beer and chocolate and lives to tell the story- she's nutts I know!)
Fallie, our newest pup in the family has only been with me for 2 months so I'm not really sure what health concerns might pop up

But between the 4 dogs my whole family has we haven't paid anywhere near $1K
I'm not saying its right or wrong, its just not something that we can "throw" $ at; I think there's the same value to a loving dog without papers than maybe one with. 
(btw- Goldie is AKC registered, but I have no clue on her genetic testing)

I hope we aren't offending anyone with our post. :/


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## Moxie (Jan 25, 2010)

No,no offense taken here.Before I started to get into "breeding" std poodles I have always believed in and advocated for rescuue,still do.I understand what your saying,we do just need to recoup where we can to be able to afford such a expensive hobby and passion.I do agree that some of the breeders out there are getting CRAZY money for pet puppies.You will see though,the economy is taking it's toll on these people too and many breeders are stuck with puppies now like never before or till a bit older ages.I like a happy middle of the road fairness as they say.We have two spayed Rescue Mutts.We love them every bit as much as our "breeding" dogs.All our dogs(4) are in our house and members of our family,regardless of any "potential" future breeding plans.


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## Sparkle&Spunk (Jan 26, 2010)

LOL, I guess we just love our little poodles, regardless of where they come from!
I think we can all agree to that


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

I find it so interesting how some breeds are so much more expensive than others to purchase. Poodles being one of them, which I frankly found odd since (and do forgive me) they are soooo common. They do have a lot of health issues though, which cost $$$ to test for and they are harder to show in conformation so comming from a breeder doing all of that I can perhaps understand some of the cost... maybe. I dunno. It isn't like the gene pool is limited and they are not difficult to breed, hence all the BYB's who are still charging the same amount as the good breeders ironicly. Maybe this is just me being a bit biased. 

That said, I don't have an issue at all dropping big bucks for a dog (of any breed) who fits in with what I am looking for at any given time. What I am usually looking for though is pretty specific.
This is why we choose NOT to rescue or adopt when we got a second spoo . Jazz is the perfect spoodle and all but I cannot do what I was hoping to do with her. When we went looking for a playmate registration was extremely important, number one requirement in fact - the dog HAD to be AKC registerable, along with all the other normal looking for a puppy criteria. As much as I would have loved to foster or adopt another spoo at the time the risk just wasn't worth it. Every single one I could find had possible temperment issues that were the result of their lives before being turned over to rescue  I wasn't the right home for one, maybe later when/ if there comes a time where we don't have smaller dogs to worry about we can look into adoption again. I would never trade Jazz but I got lucky with her. I can't expect lighting to strike twice.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Actually - the price span starts with 350 $ for REAL BYB puppy - one with no testing and with full registration, no questions asked. 

Than there is 800 - 1,200 span for "champion blood lines "  - meaning having a some Chs in 5 generation pedigree and with one year warranty. 

Than comes 1,200 to 1,500 $ span that includes whole conglomerate of breeders - from really respectable ones , who do all testing and do everything right to "make -believe" respectable breeders who claim to have it all and actually breeding just for a profit !!! 

Than there is 2,000 $ to 3,000 $ range that is "reserved" for "famous lines" and where breeders usually do all of the necessary tests and have multiple Chs in their "portfolio " and give longer warranties. 

Now - one can find some that occasionally "relax" a bit too much and do skip some of the tests :smow: and those drive me nuts !!!!! For THAT amount of money I expect impeccable breeding practices !!!!

The sweetest deal can be found when "deal falls through" and than a super puppy is all of the sudden available and for the smaller price than originally listed - those I call BINGOOOOO puppies ; ) !!!!

Now - yes -poodles are definitely not rare LOL and litters are usually very big. Still - price is high.

If we compare it with Irish Water Spaniel that is rare breed and comparable with grooming, (no viggis necessary though LMAO), same size, very intelligent, sweet, hypoallergenic and also needs all of the testing mentioned - still - goes for 750 to 1000 $ MAX for TOP of the line pups !!!!!

Something does not add up LOL but hey - some things will always stay a mystery I guess ; ))) !


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> If we compare it with Irish Water Spaniel that is rare breed and comparable with grooming, (no viggis necessary though LMAO), same size, very intelligent, sweet, hypoallergenic and also needs all of the testing mentioned - still - goes for 750 to 1000 $ MAX for TOP of the line pups !!!!!
> 
> Something does not add up LOL but hey - some things will always stay a mystery I guess ; ))) !


That's probably because (well at least in NZ), people do not even know what an Irish Water Spaniel is, so there isn't enough people wanting a puppy, as they are completely unaware in the first place. Maybe not though......


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Moxie said:


> No,no offense taken here.Before I started to get into "breeding" std poodles I have always believed in and advocated for rescuue,still do.I understand what your saying,we do just need to recoup where we can to be able to afford such a expensive hobby and passion.I do agree that some of the breeders out there are getting CRAZY money for pet puppies.You will see though,the economy is taking it's toll on these people too and many breeders are stuck with puppies now like never before or till a bit older ages.I like a happy middle of the road fairness as they say.We have two spayed Rescue Mutts.We love them every bit as much as our "breeding" dogs.All our dogs(4) are in our house and members of our family,regardless of any "potential" future breeding plans.


_I really like the statement "middle of the road fairness" because that is our philosophy as well. We have five spoos for our breeding foundation program. It is/will be very expensive to get all testing on every dog and show them to titles. If you add up the cost of all of the grooming products alone to keep them in show coat, it would amaze you. Then we will need to add to our program later on and that will mean more testing and titles. The older dogs still need to be cared for as we will most likely keep them as they are our companions and pets first. 

We are looking at prices between $900 to $1,200 for fully tested, and titled parents. The economy will drive how low we will go in our price. Our hope is also to recoup some of the expense of providing the buyer with a good quality puppy from tested and titled parents. We have no misconceptions that we will make a killing in the market place considering our expenses to provide this.

I would like to address preconceptions of people in general. There are certainly those breeders who are making money fist over hand because that is what they are in the business for. So sad! However, I have had a major reduction in breast size less than a year ago. I had four pounds of tissue removed so you can imagine the dramatic change in my appearance. I look and feel tons better than I did before the operation. My operation was 100% paid for by my husband's insurance. I am not a shallow person being vain about my appearance and about my possessions. I would hope that being seen by the public that I am not perceived as being one of those people who are breeding poodles for profit.

As mentioned in an earlier post, unless we really 'know' a breeder, we don't know what the sources of their income may be. There are people our there (not in my world) who have a lot of disposable income and can afford to invest that into their hobby/passion and are able to own fancy stuff that people like Dianne and I could never dream of having. For those who are moving up the ladder on the backs of their dogs.....shame on them!

_


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

How sad spoospirit that you would even have to feel like you need to defend yourself in this manner/way on a public forum I am so sorry .. Breeding is very wxpensive . Depending on if you use a vet or do everything yourself is all included in the price...Thi is unfortunate but true.. I think that it is what it is and as longs as folk want what they want and someone can privide it for them they is no shame in that. Walk a mile in their shoes I say... Most breeders have jobs and do work .. So the dog breeding is a self supporting habit.. What is wrong with that?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Spoospirit...I do not think of you as one of those types of breeders!!!! I also don't think breast reduction is one of those things done for vanity's sake. You did something to improve your health and spare your back!!

The people I personally am thinking of are a couple of breeders who have been brought up in threads before here on the forum. One has, in the past, posted video on her web site of her newly renovated kitchen, explaining that this was done with puppy money, and goes on to tell everyone watching that the rest of the house will soon be renovated after a couple more litters, making it very clear their pups pay for all of this (and with the volume of pups they have, I am not surprised!!)

Another is a high volume breeder who also boards and grooms. If you calculate the number of pups they produce by the quoted price on their web site, without the other aspects of their business, they are raking in about $400,000 a year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Their sole source of income is what they make off their dogs, but what a nice income it is! THAT is the kind of people I am talking about.

I am sorry if anything I posted on here made you feel I was talking about you or taking jabs at people like you. Because of my phobia and my inability to easily do things I wish I could do (like showing dogs) and being judged because until now I have not shown my dogs, I know the importance of walking a mile in someone elses shoes I also know however that there are a number of breeders out there `living off their dogs`and making money `hand over fist`off their dogs. And not because their dogs are great specimens of the breed, or come from healthy parents or healthy bloodlines, but because of the sheer number of pups they produce, and because they make so much money from their dogs, they can afford and do advertise EVERYWHERE!

Please accept my sincerest apologies if I upset or offended you in any way!!!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Spoospirit...I do not think of you as one of those types of breeders!!!! I also don't think breast reduction is one of those things done for vanity's sake. You did something to improve your health and spare your back!!
> 
> The people I personally am thinking of are a couple of breeders who have been brought up in threads before here on the forum. One has, in the past, posted video on her web site of her newly renovated kitchen, explaining that this was done with puppy money, and goes on to tell everyone watching that the rest of the house will soon be renovated after a couple more litters, making it very clear their pups pay for all of this (and with the volume of pups they have, I am not surprised!!)
> 
> ...


So why dont we quit with the tearing apart of others and focus on the good of this breed then NO ONES feelings will get hurt ? Why do it ? It helps no one? 
This seems to be an issue with some and I might add very few on this forum. I personally think that this forum should be used to educate not tear apart .. Perhaps this is just me ? But I know that I have alot to give...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> So why dont we quit with the tearing apart of others and focus on the good of this breed then NO ONES feelings will get hurt ? Why do it ? It helps no one?
> This seems to be an issue with some and I might add very few on this forum. I personally think that this forum should be used to educate not tear apart .. Perhaps this is just me ? But I know that I have alot to give...


There are some breeders who don`t do anything that would NOT have them torn apart, and I really doubt if THOSE breeders feelings GET hurt! This forum IS used to educate, very much. The odd time a thread gets heated and contenscious, it has been justified and if the people in question could come on here and HONESTLY answer questions about their practices, the whole issue would just die and disappear. Then it gets more heated and the cycles goes on...

Forums like this are to promote the wonderful, good things about the breed and its breeders, and also discuss and warm people about the not so good things about the breed and some of its breeders, and that IS educating people here.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

:deadhorse:It just never ends with some thats all over and over the same topic is brought up... WE need to move forward and look at the positive and good things that people are doing. Not tear someone else apart to make oneself look good, and this is what I have seen happening time after time. And then someone wonderful get their feelings hurt (Sorry Spoospirit ) ! sorry if this offends you it is not meant to, but it is hurting others...It just isnt right thats all. 
I want to see more focus on the positive things that breeders are doing and why the prices are what they are isnt that the focus of this thread? Not remodeling :doh: What good does that do except make ALL breeder look like money grubbers...... geesh.....
Most breeders charge what they charge because they have expenses associated with the breeding ..


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> :deadhorse:It just never ends with some thats all over and over the same topic is brought up... WE need to move forward and look at the positive and good things that people are doing. Not tear someone else apart to make oneself look good, and this is what I have seen happening time after time. And then someone wonderful get their feelings hurt (Sorry Spoospirit ) ! sorry if this offends you it is not meant to, but it is hurting others...It just isnt right thats all.
> I want to see more focus on the positive things that breeders are doing and why the prices are what they are isnt that the focus of this thread? Not remodeling :doh: What good does that do except make ALL breeder look like money grubbers...... geesh.....
> Most breeders charge what they charge because they have expenses associated with the breeding ..


Not all breeders!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> Not tear someone else apart to make oneself look good, and this is what I have seen happening time after time. And then someone wonderful get their feelings hurt (Sorry Spoospirit )
> I want to see more focus on the positive things that breeders are doing and why the prices are what they are isnt that the focus of this thread? Not remodeling :doh: What good does that do except make ALL breeder look like money grubbers...... geesh.....
> Most breeders charge what they charge because they have expenses associated with the breeding ..


I highly doubt people are trying to make them selves look good when someone brings up a breeders bad ethics..... :wacko:

This is a forum and I don't see any harm with this thread. The title states pet prices if someone seen a breeder saying they used puppy money to remodel their kitchen then IMO that goes with this topic of how people are making money on selling puppies as pets  

Every thread/ topic is not always talking about a member on here so just keep that in mind.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_May I offer my apologies to you Bigred and Arreau! It was not my intention to preach to the choir. And, I just reread my post and I realize that it sounded defensive and I did not mean for it to sound like that. I don't feel that I have been attacked or that anything was addressed toward me personally or Dianne. I meant to respond in general terms.:doh: Perhaps I should have had a cup of coffee and some breakfast first! LOL

I just wanted to say that every situation/person/business is individual and has to be looked at that way. There are a lot of people who don't understand why prices are what they are and was I hoping to help clarify that. I guess I didn't do a very good job of that! Sorry. 

To those people who question the price of their pet, you have a choice. And I mean this in the kindest way. You do your homework, develop a relationship with your breeder, and pay the going price for the pup you want because you believe you are getting what you pay for. Or, you are not comfortable with the process and choose a different road like adoption or fostering; or even go to another breed that is less expensive. Either way, you need to be comfortable with the direction you chose. No one has to purchase a puppy at a price they believe is outrageous. This is a life long companion and commitment that you are getting and you need to be happy and comfortable with everything about it.

Pet dog or show dog? :wacko: There is no distinction in our breeding program since we will breed to standard and improve our lines. All pups will be bred to the same standard. So, whether you are looking for a pet or a show ring prospect, the price of your pup will be the same as they are bred to be the best they can be. There will be no difference in price for the color or the sex of your puppy. I don't believe that any good breeder is breeding to produce 'just pet' quality pups. I don't even know what a 'pet' quality pup should look like for those who believe there should be a distinction between pet pups to quality pups bred to standard.

And, I mean this as it is stated....And, to those who are posting videos of their upscale lifestyle (or any other flaunting of their gains) that they are living due to popping out litter after litter to pay for it, again, I say shame on you for making good breeders/show homes look bad! Shame on you for 'using' your precious dogs to promote this.
_


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I highly doubt people are trying to make them selves look good when someone brings up a breeders bad ethics..... :wacko:
> 
> This is a forum and I don't see any harm with this thread. The title states pet prices if someone seen a breeder saying they used puppy money to remodel their kitchen then IMO that goes with this topic of how people are making money on selling puppies as pets
> 
> Every thread/ topic is not always talking about a member on here so just keep that in mind.


Thanks Roxy. I agree with you. If someone asks a question on a thread, are we not to answer, or give our opinion lest someones feelings might get hurt if we are honest. It is obviously not beating a dead horse if someone else asks the same question. Perhaps some of the newer people ask the same questions BECAUSE tthey are newer and havenèt seen the same questions answered prior to asking BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT HERE!!!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Spoosprit I agree that no one should be living off their dogs. 
No excuses ..I had a breeder get angry at me because I changed my mind on one of her pups Her respose to me was "Now I cant pay my gas bill this winter" OMG are you kidding..??? So I do know that this goes on , to me is not my focus. Thats all.. Everyone is different. Thats all.. 
I agree shame on them.. But this is not my focus.. I am glad that you are okay ?
End of story


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I highly doubt people are trying to make them selves look good when someone brings up a breeders bad ethics..... :wacko:
> 
> This is a forum and I don't see any harm with this thread. The title states pet prices if someone seen a breeder saying they used puppy money to remodel their kitchen then IMO that goes with this topic of how people are making money on selling puppies as pets
> 
> Every thread/ topic is not always talking about a member on here so just keep that in mind.


_I think that this is my fault for coming off as sounding defensive in my original post and when I read it again, I have to agree that it did sound that way. 

The thread is fine and, again, I apologize for nearly sabotaging it by not being more careful about how I said what I said. As I have advised others, I, too, need to pay attention to how I word things as the forum does not have a face and there are no inflections in the written word and can be read in a way that it was not meant. 

Carry on folks!_


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Spoosprit I agree that no one should be living off their dogs.
> No excuses ..I had a breeder get angry at me because I changed my mind on one of her pups Her respose to me was "Now I cant pay my gas bill this winter" OMG are you kidding..??? So I do know that this goes on , to me is not my focus. Thats all.. Everyone is different. Thats all..
> I agree shame on them.. But this is not my focus.. I am glad that you are okay ?
> End of story


_
I'm fine!  And so are you!_ 

_I have to say that if a woman who has to sell you her puppy to pay her gas bill or freeze she is definitely NOT in breeding for the right reasons and needs to find herself a real job that doesn't take advantage of such wonderful animals!! What a shame! 

It certainly does go on; and, probably more so than we would like to think. And, it does affect the debate on the price of puppies. These people undermine the programs of good breeders who are investing a lot of money into it and are selling good quality pups for a price that is in sink with their program. When a breeder of her caliber asks the same price for her puppies, they leave the greater part of the uneducated public with a false impression that the well bred/tested/titled litters are somehow not worth their price.

We will never stop BYB's or worse programs so all we can do is continue to educate the people who want to know why there is an apparent discrepancy in prices._


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

spoospirit said:


> _I think that this is my fault for coming off as sounding defensive in my original post and when I read it again, I have to agree that it did sound that way.
> 
> The thread is fine and, again, I apologize for nearly sabotaging it by not being more careful about how I said what I said. As I have advised others, I, too, need to pay attention to how I word things as the forum does not have a face and there are no inflections in the written word and can be read in a way that it was not meant.
> 
> Carry on folks!_


 SS I did not think you posted in a defensive matter , I guess I know you a little better than that  I just want to make sure people realize a thread or post is not necessarily talking about someone on here this is where fights break out , we must keep the peace


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Thanks Roxy. I agree with you. If someone asks a question on a thread, are we not to answer, or give our opinion lest someones feelings might get hurt if we are honest. It is obviously not beating a dead horse if someone else asks the same question. Perhaps some of the newer people ask the same questions BECAUSE tthey are newer and havenèt seen the same questions answered prior to asking BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT HERE!!!


_There is a definite difference between attacking someone and stating true facts about them or an honest opinion that does not contain contentious/hateful wording. It is in the wording that people sometimes get into trouble. It is a fine skill to know the difference and be able to write according to that.

Questions need and should be answered; otherwise, we are not an effective forum for people (members and visitors) to come her and learn from._

_We are going to see the same questions over and over by the very nature of the forum with new members coming on almost every day and re-debate them. That is not a bad thing. Facts or information may have changed since that last time a thread was posted about it. Also, a link can be provided for the person asking to look at older debates is they so wish._


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> SS I did not think you posted in a defensive matter , I guess I know you a little better than that  I just want to make sure people realize a thread or post is not necessarily talking about someone on here this is where fights break out , we must keep the peace


_It's a good point to bring up and is one that is often overlooked! Thank you, Roxy. 
_


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## mandi (May 13, 2009)

I would not think breeding would be very profitable (esp with today's economy!)-one would have to have lots of dogs to breed...which would up your expense and trouble...at best, I think breeding is just a supplemental income. I would never breed as I know how many animals are put down and it would also be just too hard for me to let them go...I would be such a picky breeder wanting to have the best homes for them and I really don't see most breeders doing that-I know of just one breeder in all the contacts I did in my pup purchases that actually asked for references to contact (including my vet's phone).


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

spoospirit said:


> _
> To those people who question the price of their pet, you have a choice. And I mean this in the kindest way. You do your homework, develop a relationship with your breeder, and pay the going price for the pup you want because you believe you are getting what you pay for. Or, you are not comfortable with the process and choose a different road like adoption or fostering; or even go to another breed that is less expensive. Either way, you need to be comfortable with the direction you chose. No one has to purchase a puppy at a price they believe is outrageous. This is a life long companion and commitment that you are getting and you need to be happy and comfortable with everything about it.
> 
> Pet dog or show dog? :wacko: There is no distinction in our breeding program since we will breed to standard and improve our lines. All pups will be bred to the same standard. So, whether you are looking for a pet or a show ring prospect, the price of your pup will be the same as they are bred to be the best they can be. There will be no difference in price for the color or the sex of your puppy. I don't believe that any good breeder is breeding to produce 'just pet' quality pups. I don't even know what a 'pet' quality pup should look like for those who believe there should be a distinction between pet pups to quality pups bred to standard.
> ...


Excellent posting!!!! I just saw a post on another forum that stated there is no such thing as a "show quality puppy" only a show prospect. It went on to say that no one should pay more for show prospect, unless the contract provides for reimburstment, if the puppy doesn't turn out. I love it and think it should apply to other things like color and size. If a breeder charges extra for a certain color and it fades, shouldn't they return part of your money? If you pay extra for a "tiny toy" shouldn't you get the extra back if the dog grows to be regular size or bigger. (Not saying it's a good idea to pay extra for either and I've never seen any breeder offer such a guarantee.)

I also agree that a buyer has a choice, no one is forcing you to pay $3k, $1500 or even $500 for a puppy. However, I think it's important to understand where prices come from. Prices should relfect the investment in the puppies, imo. There are those out there who charge more than show breeders when their dogs never leave the house, for show or health testing either one. There are also people out there, who truly believe a higher price means a reputable breeder and better quality puppy. I see absolutely nothing wrong w/ wanting a breeding program to pay for itself and kudos to those who make it happen. It's when it crosses into to paying for cars, mortgages, renovations, etc that I personally disagree with, but that's just me. And of course the only way to know that is to hear the breeder say it. As you said, find what you like and what you're comfortable with. I think I've found that and I hope it works out.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _
> I'm fine!  And so are you!_
> 
> _I have to say that if a woman who has to sell you her puppy to pay her gas bill or freeze she is definitely NOT in breeding for the right reasons and needs to find herself a real job that doesn't take advantage of such wonderful animals!! What a shame!
> ...


Amen Spoospirit. I am glad I did not offend YOU. I do think though that the idea of never speaking ill about some breeders on this forum is pretty silly. If someone asks a question, they have the right to get an honest answer or opinion. If we are not supposed to talk about the bad as well as the good, then there would be no point in having a forum at all, but rather a fluffy, happy place where people would go to post cute photos and quips about their dogs. While it certainly has its place here and it is nice to have it, if someone wants a question answered, they derserve to hear the truth!


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

As far as rescue goes...Flip's adoption fee was $400!
Bear in mind he was neutered and up to date on everything, but he is obviously poorly bred (cream with a liver nose/lips/eyes, pink skin, his front feet are slightly duck-foot, and he's smallish at 22"/40lbs). His brother was a bad black who was already looking grizzled at 5months. I wonder what exactly a breeder relinquish meant...heh.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Exactly! The cost for maintaining five spoos in show coat, supplements, good kibble and raw food, various shampoos and conditioners, overhead costs for weekly grooming in our home, registering fees, show fees, travel, special equipment, meals, lodging, vetting, etc, etc. is astronomical. Then when the litters come, there will be the cost of raising them, vetting, puppy packets to go home with them, expenses in communications i.e. long distance calls, registering, forms to be printed out to go home with each puppy; which requires a printer, paper, and ink, a packet to put all of this information into, etc. 

Then there is the stuff you don't even think about but would technically be considered a 'business' expenses like books, the enormous amount of 'time' invested in training each one for the different classes they will be shown in i.e. conformation, agility, obedience, CGC, and taking them out socializing them properly. Office equipment to run the business side and the programs needed to keep track of all of your breeding/showing information so that you can push a button and get out a variety of reports to show to a prospective buyer on any dog and its prodigy, Quickbooks for accurate bookkeeping to keep track of those expenses and income to know if you are even breaking even, file cabinets with hard copy information in them. Medical needs such as shots that can be administered by the owner, emergencies, whelping. Breeding needs such as whelping boxes, puppy replacement milk and bottles, scale, paperwork, travel to take them out when old enough to start socializing them, beginning house training, toys, toys, toys! LOL, etc. It makes me tired just writing about it. Then there are the skills needed to both run an effective office and a breeding/show program.

When you have a part-time job to add to this that is your main source of income for support; well, you can only imagine.

I am not complaining about anything here but providing information on some of what is needed to run a good breeding/showing home. Which, IMO, justifies the price that we will ask for our puppies. 

I love what I do! I have a real passion for the breed and all that goes with it. My first and foremost thought is always for the love and welfare of my dogs. After that, my hope is that the business can remain solvent so that we can continue with our program. I have another business in the house with professional photography so I already owned most of the business side of the stuff. Dianne and I are slowly buying all of the things we don't have yet (but do have most of it) and putting money away for investment into the testing. 

I hope this helps those who wish to know why the prices are what they are to understand what goes into producing that wonderful puppy for you.
_


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Amen Spoospirit. I am glad I did not offend YOU. I do think though that the idea of never speaking ill about some breeders on this forum is pretty silly. If someone asks as question, they have the right to get an honest answer or opinion. If we are not supposed to talk about the bad as well as the good, then there would be no point in having a forum at all, but rather a fluffy, happy place where people would go to post cute photos and qupis about there dogs. While it certainly has its place here and it is nice to have it, if someone wants a question answered, they derserve to hear the truth!



_Ageed....there would be no real point for serious people to go to a 'fluffy' forum. The fluff offsets the serious threads and it is a good balance.

Honest opinions should and must be stated. If I am looking for a breeder, I want to know if someone has had a bad experience with them. I also want to know if the experience was good. I want to know anything and everything there is to know about them because this is part of my homework for choosing that next, forever, member of my family.

The difference in what is said would be to compare saying: 'I bought a puppy from .........? Kennels. They were dishonest in the information they gave me and didn't offer to resolve the problem and I am very unhappy with my experience them', or say: 'I bought my puppy from ........? and it has a bad temperament, conformation is off, they don't do testing and ask a high price for their puppies; which I don't agree with. I don't like the breeding practices of this particular breeder. If you want more detailed information on my experience, you can pm me'.; and saying: 'I bought a puppy from that #@$#$% and she is a #[email protected][email protected] breeder and I hate her!' :scared: I hope that posters can perceive the difference in these statements. The first pair are stating an opinion/fact of their experience; the second is a direct attack of the breeder. If someone wishes to share more personal info that will become contentious, then the best avenue would be to use the pm's. 

Using a format like the first two mentioned gets the information out that your experience was bad in your opinion and you would not recommend that breeder without making a direct attack on them. If is OK to talk about what you are upset about as long as you don't use it to make a direct attack on the breeder or anyone else. That is when threads go bad and then have to be either slapped down or closed since they turn into ugly fights that 'help' no one with making informed decisions. Not many people want to wade through pages of personal jabs being thrown back and forth to get to the real information that is going to help them make the decision they originally posted about to begin with._ 

_I hope this has been helpful in clearing up a good post versus a bad post and still get your point across._


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

*difference in what is said would be to compare saying: 'I bought a puppy from .........? Kennels. They were dishonest in the information they gave me and didn't offer to resolve the problem and I am very unhappy with my experience them', or say: 'I bought my puppy from ........? and it has a bad temperament, conformation is off, they don't do testing and ask a high price for their puppies; which I don't agree with. I don't like the breeding practices of this particular breeder. If you want more detailed information on my experience, you can pm me'.; *
Agreed but when it is just something someone saw and percieved as opposed to personal experience. Personal experience okay but surfing the web and coming across a video are two different thinng . When you see something or "Hear" something then to me it has no foundation 
I want YOUR experience not gossip.. Thats all..I guess that is what I was trying to say..


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> Agreed but when it is just something someone saw and percieved as opposed to personal experience. Personal experience okay but surfing the web and coming across a video are two different thinng . When you see something or "Hear" something then to me it has no foundation
> I want YOUR experience not gossip.. Thats all..I guess that is what I was trying to say..


So when some breeders claim to have complete health testing and you go to OFA and can't find it on there what does that mean ? on the website it says complete health testing OFA ..... IMO that is not Gossip its a proven fact at that point !

This a forum and people are allowed to ask questions and post opinions 

:focus:


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> So when some breeders claim to have complete health testing and you go to OFA and can't find it on there what does that mean ? on the website it says complete health testing OFA .....
> 
> This a forum and people are allowed to ask questions and post opinions
> 
> :focus:


Right on ! Ranger


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Spoospirit... you always know the right things to say!! :hug:  In my non-expert opinion, I also think that when a point is brought up about suspect breeding practices, there are members here who automatically get their knickers in a twist because they *think* the point was specific to them... I find healthy debate and friendly disagreement to be helpful - you get to see both sides; but it should stay healthy and friendly. 

In my experiences with searching for and finding a breeder of quality standard poodles, I've dealt with all parts of the spectrum - from the nearly obvious puppy-millers to the unethical byb to the wonderful people who truly love the breed in general, their dogs specifically; and are doing what they can to advance the betterment of the breed. I saw the puppy-millers asking exorbitant prices, the byb asking tiny amount comparably (which made you wonder what was "wrong" with their dogs!), and I found that the reputable breeders' prices to be pretty much in-line with each other - with the odd "extra" charge here or there for additional things (like a veterinary health certificate; shipping costs, etc...)

As a consumer - it was *MY* responsibility, my *RIGHT *to find a breeder with whom I was comfortable... with whom I could establish, first; a professional relationship which then quickly turned into a trusting, lifelong friendship. I find the price that I paid for Lucybug a bargain for everything I'm STILL receiving from her breeder!! That has made all the difference for me...

I encourage anyone reading this thread who is looking to add ANY pet to your home to not automatically think that the most expensive one is the best, nor that a less expensive one is substandard in some way; do your homework - do research - ask questions - ask for references - TAKE YOUR TIME - and HAVE FUN!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> So when some breeders claim to have complete health testing and you go to OFA and can't find it on there what does that mean ? on the website it says complete health testing OFA ..... IMO that is not Gossip its a proven fact at that point !
> 
> This a forum and people are allowed to ask questions and post opinions
> 
> :focus:



GEEZ... I thought so too!! If ten people on here (or anywhere else for that matter) see or hear something and talk amongst themselves about it, and one of them or all of them wish to post a new thread or reply to a question asked in regard to this topic, I would not consider this gossip, but an attempt to educate others.

I dont know about anyone else, but I WISH I personally had the time to surf the net trying to find crap on other breeders. Holy smokes...I spend so much time on here, I have little time for ANYTHING else. Thank heavens I work for myself and do not have to worry or explain to anyone why I am on here so much when I should be working.


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## Sparkle&Spunk (Jan 26, 2010)

LOL, our oldest poodle Goldie is the only one who is 'pedegree quality' with AKC papers (and she was a gift to my sister)

Our 'pet quality' dogs with no papers were such a steal (I'm starting to see).
Ocsi was $100 to his breeder
Fallie was $200 to the rescue group
Maggie was about $100 also to a rescue group

Fallie and Maggie have their personality issues they "came" with, but Goldie developed some behavior issues too- so seems that AKC and "worth lots of $$" doesn't make a difference. imo :hug:


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Maybe my booby enhancement joke was a soft spot......hwell: Spoospirit I can only sympathize because most of the women in my family were so blessed (some had reductions - medically paid which means a lot going on there) and little Ole me - - got the B's....+ baby = less 


It was a joke a little light heartiness can go a long way for some of us sorry Arreau I sucked ya in! Lol! Women we can be so caddy! :rolffleyes: 

BigRedPoodle - this is not meant to be disrespectful just stating the obvious - so keep an open mind. I just don't like to see you post condescending thing's against Arreau for all of us to read as if she is a trouble maker was the impression I got.....it seems you have certainly partaken in some threads that were "not so nice towards her" and others......So when you say "peace and love" - sometime it's good to breath and reevaluate yourself first I DO IT ALL THE TIME - it works! Love your dogs! And grooming! Know this is NOT an attack. And think your an added peice to the forum as we all are - so we must be open to agree to disagree. Mod's unbiased opinion. only! .....


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Having been on both sides of the buyer, breeder equation I can totally see why the going rate is what it is! Eleven years ago when we had our first PWD litter, the starting rate was $2,000. I think it has gone up from that. The cost of the first puppy you sell goes straight to the stud owner. The cost of the second goes on testing and other aspects of preparing to breed. SS ponted out earlier in the thread all the the money that gets spent on the dog gettig titles etc. Plus there's the fact that our litter had 24 hour attendance for the first 2 weeks, which meant my mom wasn't getting paid through her job (as she was part time at the time, so no holiday pay). We had 3 puppies and kept one! We lost sooo much money on that litter, but it was fine, we got a puppy we wanted plus 2 others who went to great homes. And having the litter was the best experience, we spent 8 weeks essentially with them and doing nothing else.

Now, had we had a big litter, maybe we would have come out with some additional cash. But we didn't. So I guess that's I understand the prices some breeders are asking.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

[
Not at all against her I just get tired of the same innuendos over and over thats all . I realy do try to keep my own peace.. But thanks for pointing this out to me perhaps I do need to take a look


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

What's funny is I was watching the new last night anyone familiar with Sean Combs, rapper, designer? Well he bought his 16 year old a $350.000 car! people in the media are ripping him up one side and down the other because of the economy we are in and so on - so it really seems to be a matter of what we are willing to pay. 

In my original post the price mentioned was right for me - and as several have said it is up to me/the buyer to do my homework, and also determine if dropping this kind of money in this time of day is wise because WHAT IF?

SO when price came into the context of this thread and other breeders, it is frustrating to sit and watch litters flying off the shelf in some breeder homes. I persoanlly do NOT want to EVER breed - but could not afford to this, as I am now aware - one of the money BUT the blood, sweat and tears that go into it. These are the breeders I am going to gravitate too.....the ones that have a future plan, that love their dogs enough to consider all the aspects of breedeing better pups.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Olie said:


> Maybe my booby enhancement joke was a soft spot......hwell: Spoospirit I can only sympathize because most of the women in my family were so blessed (some had reductions - medically paid which means a lot going on there) and little Ole me - - got the B's....+ baby = less



_LOL!! No! I wasn't offended by what you said in a personal way. Actually I found it amusing. But, I brought it up because I wanted to address the 'impression' one can get by looking at another person and their assets (physically  or in possessions.. LOL) Sometimes you can be dead on in your assessment but other times the book really can not be judged by its cover. 

I find it offensive that people flaunt things like that because they made so much money on their puppies. If they are making that much money on 'puppies', then something seems amiss here and a deeper look should be taken. If they have that much disposable income available to them minus the money they make on their puppies; well, then, more power to them and I'll be the first to applaud their 'new look!'!_ :beauty:


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _
> 
> Pet dog or show dog? :wacko: There is no distinction in our breeding program since we will breed to standard and improve our lines. All pups will be bred to the same standard. So, whether you are looking for a pet or a show ring prospect, the price of your pup will be the same as they are bred to be the best they can be. There will be no difference in price for the color or the sex of your puppy. I don't believe that any good breeder is breeding to produce 'just pet' quality pups. I don't even know what a 'pet' quality pup should look like for those who believe there should be a distinction between pet pups to quality pups bred to standard.
> 
> _


This is a wonderful point! Why do show pups that come from the same litter cost more from some breeders? It seems that the pup going to a show home would be an advantage to the breeder in the fact that their lines could go on to be champions. 

Excellent points!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I really don't know the answer to that one but I can offer an opinion. It may be that those breeders are giving a guarantee with those show home pups. If I were offering a contract with a guarantee that the show pup you bought form me was going to make it in the show ring, then I might want to charge more for that pup. But, I had better be prepared to refund the difference from the cost of the 'pet quality' pup and the 'show quality pup' to you if, under certain circumstances, the pup doesn't finish. If anyone is charging more for show potential pups, please feel free to chime in.

I, personally would not give a written guarantee that even the most promising pup was going to be the next champion. There are a myriad of things that could happen to prevent that pup from realizing its potential that are not under my control. I would pick the pup for you who has everything at that age to be a champion but the rest is up to you. 

Show home owners have had pups either purchased from another breeder or a breed-by that have not worked out for one reason or another and have had to re-home the pup._


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _I really don't know the answer to that one but I can offer an opinion. It may be that those breeders are giving a guarantee with those show home pups. If I were offering a contract with a guarantee that the show pup you bought form me was going to make it in the show ring, then I might want to charge more for that pup. But, I had better be prepared to refund the difference from the cost of the 'pet quality' pup and the 'show quality pup' to you if, under certain circumstances, the pup doesn't finish. If anyone is charging more for show potential pups, please feel free to chime in.
> 
> I, personally would not give a written guarantee that even the most promising pup was going to be the next champion. There are a myriad of things that could happen to prevent that pup from realizing its potential that are not under my control. I would pick the pup for you who has everything at that age to be a champion but the rest is up to you.
> 
> Show home owners have had pups either purchased from another breeder or a breed-by that have not worked out for one reason or another and have had to re-home the pup._


Yes, the guarantee would make a difference. The only other reason I guess would be the potential that the "show potential" pup could eventually have puppies and thus the new owner would sell those puppies. I don't think I would rule a breeder out who sold show pups for more(I don't know yet), but the only reason seems to be that you are purchasing breeding rights with a show puppy. Everyone has their own reasons and I don't know what I would do if I had a litter of puppies.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Oh my : ((( - this thread went so much "south" that I do not even know of where to start since so many issues need to be addressed but I will address now the one that are the most important at this moment - at least to me : ((

First - I want to say that when I talk about breeders who are not very good, I never IN MY WILDEST DREAMS had any members of this forum in my mind (especially not ones participating in this thread) I thought it is a given fact , but I guess not and that is just horrible : (((( !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MY definition of a BYB is a breeder who never does any testing, has a 10 litters per year, produces crappy looking dogs with bad temperament and is doing so solely for a profit and has NO idea of what he/she is doing !!!!

Second - price per se was not the main issue - but *what is offered* in return for that price - or better said what WAS NOT : ((

Third - whenever I do post, I always talk from my PERSONAL experience - how else I could post :rolffleyes: I am not a breeder and I have no gain in "tearing" anybody up and I do not remember ever doing so - if yes - please remind me : ((( !!!!!

Fourth - I have no intention of naming all breeders who claimed that they tested their dogs and actually did not - I would need 5 pages to do so (and yes - I asked for a proof !!!!!) 


Hope some things are more clear now *sigh... : (((


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> So when some breeders claim to have complete health testing and you go to OFA and can't find it on there what does that mean ? on the website it says complete health testing OFA ..... IMO that is not Gossip its a proven fact at that point !
> 
> This a forum and people are allowed to ask questions and post opinions
> 
> :focus:


Amen to that . Took the words right out of my mouth


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Oh my : ((( - this thread went so much "south" that I do not even know of where to start since so many issues need to be addressed but I will address now the one that are the most important at this moment - at least to me : ((
> 
> First - I want to say that when I talk about breeders who are not very good, I never IN MY WILDEST DREAMS had any members of this forum in my mind (especially not ones participating in this thread) I thought it is a given fact , but I guess not and that is just horrible : (((( !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


_
I'm sorry Wishpoo?! I'm not sure what happened here. I was responding to Mercury mom's query about pricing pups as far as our own practices go since I cannot speak for anyone else and also a couple of other posts. I actually had never read your post until just now as I went right to the end page at the time when I did my first post to this thread. There was a dialogue on the past two pages between a few of us but I didn't see anywhere where you were mentioned in them.

I didn't think you had anything to clear up. Your post was very informative._


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

I agree wishpoo very informative !


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Oh good , good :hello: Thanks for telling me that - I was so worried I was misunderstood somewhere in my posts about prices : ( I would hate to hurt somebody's feelings unintentionally :grouphug: or give impression that I do not know how much work goes into good breeding program ...

I can have my breakfast now  LOL My stomach was all "jumbled up"


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Oh good , good :hello: Thanks for telling me that - I was so worried I was misunderstood somewhere in my posts about prices : ( I would hate to hurt somebody's feelings unintentionally :grouphug: or give impression that I do not know how much work goes into good breeding program ...
> 
> I can have my breakfast now  LOL My stomach was all "jumbled up"


_
LOL! Enjoy! I just had mine at 4:30 p.m. LOL_


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

*To Post or Not Post OFA Results*

LOL, it is around 3 pm here ; ) !!! We are getting "in shape" I guess , liking it or not ha ha !!!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I am going to start another thread for this subject so that others will participate.
_


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Back to stirring the original pot. And adding a few chili peppers. 

As someone who is interested in a pet, not a show dog, I find it interesting how a number of breeds have diverged into working lines and show lines. Labs have the big blocky show dogs and the narrower field trial type. German Shepherds have the American show lines with the exaggerated back end angulation vs the European and police types. Border collies have the herding lines and the Barbie collies.

The message this divergence sends to a casual outsider, like me, is that a lot of very serious dog breeders think show breeders produce crap. We amateurs get the idea that champion show dogs are hot house flowers unsuitable for the real world. Holding that belief, why would I, as a casual pet owner, want a dog with champion lines at all? There's certainly no reason I'd want to pay MORE for bloodlines I believe make the dog less suitable as a pet. I want a reliable Toyota, not a high maintenance Maserati. 

Understand I'm playing devil's advocate here. I like poodles because I think the breed standard as it is currently enforced produces structurally sound dogs. I also understand the cost and effort that goes into producing a litter of well bred pups. At this point there are really only two classes of poodle breeders. There are the responsible ones, who have to be at least in tune with the show world, and the backyard/puppy mill businesses. There aren't enough poodles being used for field trials to have produced any great quantity of a third type, thoughtfully bred dogs that diverge from show standards. However, I do think that the schism between working lines and show lines in other breeds does make ignorant pet poodle buyers more vulnerable to shysters. "My dog that doesn't conform to breed standards is BETTER, because I've bred this line to ride bicyles. The bow legs fit the seat better." Or because the backyard oddity is somehow better for being a maltipoo, a labradoodle, or whatnot.


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

That is the range that we paid for Bella and she is a "pet." I didn't ask what wouldn't make her a "show quality" b/c I'm not interested in showing anyhow. The breeder we chose upheld many values we have as a family when it comes to health, has a health guarantee, always available for questions, etc. I didn't think to ask if different dogs were different colors b/c we didn't want the other ones. I also felt very much like we were being chosen by her, too. There was a lengthy questionnaire, we talked on the phone, we picked her up personally.


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