# Should Groomers be Licensed?



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Probably. They should also be insured!


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## sandooch (Jan 20, 2011)

Wow, how scary for that dog's owner! I can't believe that a clipper could cut the skin that severely. How in the world can something like that happen? I would assume that she'd had to have pushed the clipper into his skin...but why? I would have been beyond livid had I been in that situation. Poor dog.


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## robby69 (Apr 29, 2012)

Agreed..

Took our spoo to a new groomer because our regular one was out for a few weeks ill. Poor thing couldn't go out of the house for 3 weeks!:argh:

We even gave her a picture (we took after she was groomed by our regular guy) and Just look at what happened !

My wife actually paid her...


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

It certainly wouldn't be a bad idea. It probably wouldn't stop stories like this from happening, but it _would_ cut down on them!

I must point out, however, that the certified groomer Popadiuk was saying some things that to me we're a little odd. Such as calling a clipper a shaver, saying an experienced groomer wouldn't have shaved that dog because of his double coat, (lots of owners insist that their dog is hot and that he needs a shave...seeing as they are paying us to do what THEY want, we dont really have a choice. Sure, we can educate all we want, but people dont always take the advice given to them. ) and I have no idea what she was talking about in the description of how to trim a double coated dogs hair. How do you hold the coat up, comb down, and then trim it layer by layer? I guess I see how it could be done, but the end result (IMO) isn't going to be pretty. Maybe they just do things different in Canada though. 

I hope Joey recovers quickly and that no permanent harm was done. Poor little guy...I personally don't see how you can cut a dog like that with clippers. I would wonder if she was using scissors? They most certainly can cause an injury like that!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

The only way that I can think of to cause that sort of injury with clippers would be to dig them in, rather than keeping them flat to the skin - unless, of course, it was clipper burn from a very short blade followed by scratching. It does seem an extraordinary error for an experienced groomer to make - perhaps the many years experience were in bathing, rather than clipping.

Human hardressers, in the UK at least, are expected to undertake an apprenticeship that includes both practical training and experience, and education and examination. Dog groomers probably need more, rather than less, qualification!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

fjm said:


> The only way that I can think of to cause that sort of injury with clippers would be to dig them in, rather than keeping them flat to the skin - unless, of course, it was clipper burn from a very short blade followed by scratching. It does seem an extraordinary error for an experienced groomer to make - perhaps the many years experience were in bathing, rather than clipping.


I suppose that would be possible if you were using a skip tooth blade...and maybe thats what happened, the article didnt specify. With the blades I use, (finishing blades with narrower teeth) there would have to be a really thin flap of skin standing up or something that could get caught in the teeth.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

My opinion for what it is worth is that groomers should NOT be licensed. NO NO NO!!!! Occasionally bad things happen. But bad things will continue to happen even if groomers are licensed.

With licensing, the government would have to decide who was good enough to be licensed. High school diploma? College degree? Classes in dog grooming? Almost certainly, you would end up with some requirement that groomers take courses in grooming. You'd have required courses to get your license, and then probably required continuing education. And you'd have some sort of licensing exam. This would give rise to a little dog grooming education industry--people who make money by charging for dog grooming classes and exam prep. Dog groomers would have to pay for these courses, they'd have to pay for taking the licensing exam, and they'd have to pay for the paperwork involved in getting and renewing their licence. The costs would be passed on to the consumers. It would be harder for groomers to set up their own businesses, especially those who only want to do it on a part time basis or those who want to work from their homes or their customer's homes. (My groomer comes to my house.) It would be illegal for you to pay your friend to groom your dog, even if you thought that your friend could do a good job. 

BTW I think there are lots of really bad groomers out there. I just don't think that asking the government to develop and enforce licensing regulations is going to make things any better. And I do think it would make things more expensive for groomers and pet owners alike.

My 2 cents.


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## ambitious groomer (Mar 21, 2011)

*torn on arguement for groomer licensing*

I understand the arguments for licensing and agree. I've personally chosen not to certify myself. I completed a groomer training course at one of the petsomethings and now work for the other one where they provide their groomer training course. I apprenticed with a 2nd generation groomer with over 30 yr experience in between corporate places. I have paid to mentor with a highly respectable groomer in my area and to compete in grooming competitions. i spend lots of time at dog shows and groomer trade shows. I have gained so much more from the apprenticeship and educating myself than at the corporate places I've worked. The corporate places give you their own certification. I have heard horror stories about lack of knowledge, pet handling, and accidents involving people licensed by the National Dog Groomers Association of America. I felt it seemed more, pay, take the test, groom a few dogs, viola I have a title. It's also not cheap and you have to be a NDGAA member (pay dues) to post that you have their certification. They have the only national licensing I am aware of. I just wanted to share my decision to not certify myself. I'm not arguing either for or against.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

regulations wont do anything but make it harder for law abiding, good groomers out there IMO. Same thing with breed bans. Never a good idea to let the gov step in and regulate things.

You know there is always the groomer's side, the pet owners, and the truth. We dont know what happened.. yeah a skip tooth which I refuse to use but is often used on shave downs esp on thick or matted coats can cause serious damage. Some dogs have very pendulous necks and a blade can scratch/nick one and in some cases slice if approached incorrectly. Like mom24doggies there are some inaccurate terms used by the groomer so that worries me lol. I learned by aprenticeship from a succesful self-taught groomer.. and I dont do too bad.

Some people think they can pick up a pair of clippers and call themselves a groomer. I would ask friends or strangers you see with a nice haircut(dog) for a referral. Dont ask vets most are just groomer bashers which is really sad. I had one client with a shihtzu that had skin issues that always wanted a close shave poodle face and feet. As a groomer we do what an owner asks.. within reason. Well his lil feet started to get irritated, more so if he chewed on him. COurse the vet blamed me, but my client refused to listen to him(good for her!) and we tried going longer. Well she didnt like it and we went back to the old haircut and she found another vet, and she had him tested for allergies, changed foods etc by my rec lol. He is doing much better. Some vets are lazy and quick to blame.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

*Sb 969*

There's a bill in California, SB 969, that is trying to be passed. It will regulate pet groomers regarding licensing and certification. Many groomers are against it because they do not want to be have govt regulations, especially by a body who knows nothing about grooming. You can google it read it in full to see what the details are.

I'm not sure if this will help... essentially you go through A, B, C, hoops - you get a certificate to be a dog groomer. But does this really help with SAFETY in the shop? I think there may need to be more basic classes that a groomer needs to take that stresses how to use tools properly - cause even improper brushing can cause brush burns and skin damage - how to handle dogs, ergonomics to alleviate back/hand pain so groomers don't get burned out, evaluating a person to see if they really are animal lovers. 

Regulation may weed out the "bad" groomers, but it will also weed out the good groomers who are self-taught. This type of thing must be done correctly and by agencies that are approved by the grooming industry.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Surely the whole point of regulation is to assure competence, which most definitely includes safe and proper handling of dogs, chemicals and equipment. Self taught can vary from outstanding down to absolutely abysmal; an apprenticeship to a mentor can similarly mean many years of solid experience or a smattering of knowledge. 

I think regulation would work well, provided that it was meaningful. I would like to see the profession develop proper career development paths and certification, just as there are in human hairdressing and beauty services.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> ...I personally don't see how you can cut a dog like that with clippers. I would wonder if she was using scissors? They most certainly can cause an injury like that!


I am very interested to know how such an injury could have happened. Since there were also bruises on the dog, perhaps there was a struggle "on/off" the grooming table that resulted in the injury to the dog's neck ?

I hope those of you who are experienced groomers can provide some likely scenarios.

I suppose some basic requirements could eliminate some "accidents", but, in the end, it is the owner's responsibility to choose wisely the person(s) to whom they entrust the care of their pet.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

nu2poodles said:


> in the end, it is the owner's responsibility to choose wisely the person(s) to whom they entrust the care of their pet.


I agree that it is and should be up to the owner.

I have a fabulous groomer now (she's a poodle breeder), but had some very bad experiences before I found her. It is sometimes not easy to know what goes on in the grooming salon. After a bad experience with one groomer, I went to another groomer and asked if I could sit through the whole process with my dog the first time. This was many years ago with my girl Sophie. I also brought my brother's spoo who had been to this groomer before. 

The first bad sign was that when we got there, my brother's dog was absolutely distraught--pulling hard to go back to the car. Definitely very distressed. Of course no dog likes to go to the groomer. But I think we need to pay attention when our dogs look really distressed. Maybe they know something that we don't know. 

Second problem: While we were in the wash room, Sophie seemed to be dancing to get away from the water. I asked the person who was washing her about that and he said all the dogs did that. So I assumed he knew what he was doing (bad assumption on my part). When the bathing was finished, I put my hand on her back and she was HOT!!! The water must have been extremely hot. I know from bathing my own dogs that water that seems comfortably warm/hot to us is very uncomfortable for them. 

We didn't go back to that groomer. 

My recommendation for anyone looking for a groomer is (1) ask friends, your breeder, people at the dog park, etc. for recommendations. (2) pay attention to the signals you get from your dog, especially any signs of extreme distress and (3) insist on sitting through the whole process the first time.

I frankly think it is very hard for owners to know how to pick a good groomer. I just don't think that licensing will make it any easier.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I also questioned how that wound came about. It can't be from the clippers. Maybe a skip tooth blade?? But that cut is so big and deep. It looks more like scissors or dematting blade. But I feel the dog would have to have been very very matted right there. I could see someone causing that if they took the scissors with one blade to "splice" through the matt but accidentally got skin instead?

When looking for groomers, always ask how they work through the dogs. If it's assembly line type of thing or straight through. Also interview the bathers. How are they bathing the dogs? There is nothing wrong with assembly line grooming but there's different hands on the dogs at different times so more chances for accidents, but that isn't to say that one person can't cause damage either. There are some bathers that rush through and don't care about the dog - like checking the water temperature, pressure, and especially on washing the face. I've seen bathers blast high pressure water right in the dog's face, and the water going up the dogs nose. This is very dangerous for brachycephalic dogs cause it takes only a small amount of water for the dog to "drown." And even if the appropriate water pressure is used, the key is not to rush through the process. You can use a low stream but the dog may still freak out and thrash around. So the bather must have patience not to manhandle the dog, not to hit the dog in anger, and to be very careful not to shoot water up the nose (which is a challenge when the dog is jumping around). They also need to be careful not to get water in the ears.

So, my point is - that both bathers and groomers need to be on the same page. They need to focus on the task at hand, and not rush through things. I'm really surprised by clients who just ask about prices and that's all they care about. I want to mention that some dogs may seem distressed when they get to the groomers due to separation anxiety, or the fact they can hear and smell "danger" (because of the smell of anal gland expression in the tub area). Most of the time the dog is fine after the owner leaves. But it is always wise to get a tour of where your dog will be groomed and kept.

BTW, don't be insulted if the groomer does not want you to stay for the groom. Many dogs act up worse in the presence of the owner and this is more dangerous with sharp objects near the dog.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Or getting a groomer certification could be as easy as getting a foods handlers permit, answer 'duh' questions that everyone with common sense should know.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

This recently surfaced.. all I have to say is holy crap! Her reaction is totally unnecessary, if the dog is too difficult to handle, admit defeat and tell the owner you can no longer groom it, treating the dog like that is only going to make the dog worse for grooming, stress you out, and make you hate your job.

Not all us groomers are like this

Dog groomers under scrutinty, including 1 in Kern County | Investigations | Bakersfield Now - News, Weather and Sports


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> This recently surfaced.. all I have to say is holy crap! Her reaction is totally unnecessary, if the dog is too difficult to handle, admit defeat and tell the owner you can no longer groom it, treating the dog like that is only going to make the dog worse for grooming, stress you out, and make you hate your job.
> 
> Not all us groomers are like this


Holy crap is right!!!! And how is the average dog owner supposed to know about what happens after you drop your dog off? Thanks for sharing the video.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Well I don't think yr average pro groomer would loose it like that at work too often. That lady was obviously havin' a baaaad day!

But still, the video would probably contribute to educating future groomers at seminar... as a good example of what not to do, eh? lol


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

She was being very rough, but not drastically abusive like some stories I've heard. Looks like she got really frustrated and let the dog get to her. What I don't understand was the intensity of her frustration cause the dog didn't seem like he was being that bad. Not trying to bite or whipping his head around. In fact, there was more head whipping made by her by flinging his head around like that. Sometimes it takes humility to realize that you cannot groom a dog to a certain standard in order to keep the dog safe. There have been times I was frustrated cause I couldn't get a dog's feet shaved like a poodle. I got two feet shaved, one half shaved, and the other I couldn't even get to. I just stopped and decided that was the end of the groom. Called the owner and told them "This is all that Fifi will allow me today," and they were very understanding. Some dogs also went home with a little bit of an uneven face (that I thought looked uneven), but the owner was just happy to see the dog trimmed, clean, and able to see their eyes. The groomer in the video probably also felt pressed for time trying to get the dog groomed, but the way she was doing it is not humane or efficient at all.


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## kanatadoggroomer (Jan 24, 2010)

There is pending legislation in Ontario - soon to be legislation across Canada - dictating that anybody that handles grooming equipment MUST be registered and licenced. Both will be mandatory. Groomers who have more than 2 years proven experience will be grandfathered in and those with less than 2 years will have to pass a grooming competency test based on SAFETY. I am all for this legislation and look forward to it. I, for one, am going above and beyond these requirements and will be certified in non-sporting (obviously grooming a standard poodle) by IPG as a step towards becoming a master groomer. And becoming certified is not an easy task. Every scissor mark in the coat is a fault. You have to put a trim on the dog based on the dog's build and mask any structural faults. Make it a "balanced" trim. Every bevel in the legs is scrutinized, coat is fluffed and measured. No stray hairs, perfectly straight crisp clipper lines. I will be proud to say that not only will I be registered and licenced but also certified. Bring it on!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

You are my kind of groomer, kanata - I wish you were close enough to make Poppy look beautiful!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

kanatadoggroomer said:


> There is pending legislation in Ontario - soon to be legislation across Canada - dictating that anybody that handles grooming equipment MUST be registered and licenced. Both will be mandatory. Groomers who have more than 2 years proven experience will be grandfathered in and those with less than 2 years will have to pass a grooming competency test based on SAFETY. I am all for this legislation and look forward to it. I, for one, am going above and beyond these requirements and will be certified in non-sporting (obviously grooming a standard poodle) by IPG as a step towards becoming a master groomer. And becoming certified is not an easy task. Every scissor mark in the coat is a fault. You have to put a trim on the dog based on the dog's build and mask any structural faults. Make it a "balanced" trim. Every bevel in the legs is scrutinized, coat is fluffed and measured. No stray hairs, perfectly straight crisp clipper lines. I will be proud to say that not only will I be registered and licenced but also certified. Bring it on!


I applaud your devotion to your profession, and highly regard you for it! I wish you lived and worked on my side of the U.S./Canada border, I'd book your grooming services for a standing appointment for the next 15 years, at least! It's so heartening to come across someone who, rather than being threatening by proving their proficiency, welcomes and embraces the opportunity to do so. It's thinking like yours that will advance the grooming profession, and help ensure the well being of the dogs and cats entrusted to groomers. Thanks so much for sharing your POV, and for being the calibre of professional who sets the bar so high.:adore:


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Your resolve for excellence and expertise in your craft will speak for itself and you will be well-regarded in your grooming efforts.


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