# Tri color poodle



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

There are many questions you should ask before color. Do you have full AKC or UKC registration, so that you can register the puppies? Which health screenings have you done? The list goes on...


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

I'd recommend asking that question to your mentor after the dog is confirmed to be a good breeding aspect. Color is not the determining factor when breeding a dog. Health screenings, registration, temperament, conformation, etc... Those are the things you should look for before considering color.


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

cowpony said:


> There are many questions you should ask before color. Do you have full AKC or UKC registration, so that you can register the puppies? Which health screenings have you done? The list goes on...


Yes I have full rights AKC. I plan on doing full health testing also, when he is old enough. But I am also interested in buying a female, so that's why I am asking to know what I should look for in a pup. I currently have a 2 yr old


cowpony said:


> There are many questions you should ask before color. Do you have full AKC or UKC registration, so that you can register the puppies? Which health screenings have you done? The list goes on...


Yes, I have full AKC rights. Yes, I plan on doing health testing also. I already have one poodle that is 2.5 yrs old. I do not plan on breeding


FloofyPoodle said:


> I'd recommend asking that question to your mentor after the dog is confirmed to be a good breeding aspect. Color is not the determining factor when breeding a dog. Health screenings, registration, temperament, conformation, etc... Those are the things you should look for before considering color.


Well, I plan oni plan


FloofyPoodle said:


> I'd recommend asking that question to your mentor after the dog is confirmed to be a good breeding aspect. Color is not the determining factor when breeding a dog. Health screenings, registration, temperament, conformation, etc... Those are the things you should look for before considering color.





FloofyPoodle said:


> I'd recommend asking that question to your mentor after the dog is confirmed to be a good breeding aspect. Color is not the determining factor when breeding a dog. Health screenings, registration, temperament, conformation, etc... Those are the things you should look for before considering color.


I plan on doing all of those, however I am looking to buy a female, and parents have been tested and so will poodle as


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

If I had a female and was looking for a stud I would pay good money for breeding there are certain things I would be looking for. I would want some certainty that the dog is more than "a poodle". For instance, titles. I would expect him to be titled in something. Since he is not a solid color he cannot be shown in AKC conformation, but he can be shown in agility and other sports. Parti color is accepted in UKC, so a conformation title in UKC would be acceptable to me.


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

Sorry, this phone is aggravating. It isnt allowing me to backspace and delete a letter at a time and then posts my reply. But, I cant do all the testing on my male until he is older, but I want to buy a female also. What I am wondering should I look for a phantom parti or maybe a brindle or even a phantom from a reputable breeder. Yes, I want good healthy dogs, but I also want a a female that would pair good with him. I want to raise them as pets, from puppies. If something fails on health testing, then I won't breed. But, this just a color question, not about what I need to do. I will do what I need to do when the time is appropriate.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Why do you want to breed your male dog? Are you prepared for the possibility that making him a stud dog can lead to marking in the house, aggression toward other male dogs, an urge to wander, and some other not so wonderful behaviors? Unless a dog is far above average quality and has tested clear of all genetic diseases, it is best to never breed them. I strongly agree with Michigan Gal - anyone looking to breed their female would do well to look for a titled dog with a flawless health/genetic background.


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

No disrespect, to you at all. But I'm not worried about titles. Just healthy, good temperaments and pets. I currently own a non registered poodle also which is 2.5 yrs old. She is very obedient, great temperament, and she is my best friend. Alot of people want quality healthy beautiful pets, not just titles. I had seriously thought about putting my female in agility, however where I'm at there is not much opportunity unless you like to travel far all the time.


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

Johanna said:


> Why do you want to breed your male dog? Are you prepared for the possibility that making him a stud dog can lead to marking in the house, aggression toward other male dogs, an urge to wander, and some other not so wonderful behaviors? Unless a dog is far above average quality and has tested clear of all genetic diseases, it is best to never breed them. I strongly agree with Michigan Gal - anyone looking to breed their female would do well to look for a titled dog with a flawless health/genetic background.


Also, why I want to breed. Well, 2 5 yrs ago I got my non registered female poodle. I have had many dogs, but none like her. Her and I are inseparable. She is my best friend and I wouldn't take a million dollars for my $600 pup. Every one who knows me knows how special my dog is to me. So this is why I want to breed. I love the breed, they are the only dog I would every own. Every one who know me, says I missed my calling when it comes to dogs. I would like to breed solid, healthy, great temperaments dogs as pets for other people. Do I plan on owning slews of dogs.. NO. I have 2 dogs and plan on getting 1 more. That's all I will ever do because they need the attention that they deserve to have. My dogs are never outside except to play or use the bathroom. My dogs go everywhere with me on camping trips, boating. There is also a lot of people like me in the world that wants a healthy, good temperament, and just a dog as a great pet. Also, there is no other male dogs close to me. I live in the country. My dogs don't wonder because they are not outside without me. Behaviors I can correct. I'm very good at training dogs.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

As a group here on PF, we tend to prefer well structured breeding programs, where the breeder has a deep understanding of the genetics of his/her breeding dogs and how well they meet conformation standards. What you're proposing is against the grain here, and you may not find a lot of support unless you find a mentor and work to educate yourself.

If you're serious about breeding, here's a quick guide to phantom color genetics. Many breeders are adopting BetterBred metrics when considering pairings. The main thrust of the information is that it would be best to wait until you know your dog's genetics and suitability for breeding before considering who to mate him with. He may be valuable as a stud dog, and the typical fee is the cost of one puppy.


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

Michigan Gal said:


> If I had a female and was looking for a stud I would pay good money for breeding there are certain things I would be looking for. I would want some certainty that the dog is more than "a poodle". For instance, titles. I would expect him to be titled in something. Since he is not a solid color he cannot be shown in AKC conformation, but he can be shown in agility and other sports. Parti color is accepted in UKC, so a conformation title in UKC would be acceptable to me.





Michigan Gal said:


> If I had a female and was looking for a stud I would pay good money for breeding there are certain things I would be looking for. I would want some certainty that the dog is more than "a poodle". For instance, titles. I would expect him to be titled in something. Since he is not a solid color he cannot be shown in AKC conformation, but he can be shown in agility and other sports. Parti color is accepted in UKC, so a conformation title in UKC would be acceptable to me.


Well my males mother was 5 in ukc last year. But I'm looking more for healthy poodles as peoples pets. I already have one who is not registered and that is why I fell in love with the breed. Health testing is a must. But, I'm looking to purchase a female to raise with him as a puppy. When they get older and need all of their testing like hips and elbows ect. I will do it and if they dont pass their testing I wont breed and will just have 2 great pets. Really this is just a color question. Not a breeding lesson.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

What are the goals of your breeding program? What faults dows your male have? What makes him exceptional? What are you doing to improve the breed as a whole? These were all questions my own dogs breeder was more than happy to answer, and had a good answer for as well. 

This forum is historically pretty unfriendly and unhelpful towards people wishing to breed without titling, or asking questions about breeding that can be answered with googling. Most people here dont consider colour the first thing to lookfor when breeding, and people get their backs up. 

Personally, i wont buy a dog now without proof its parents were shown in some dog sport - conformation, obedience, agility, etc. And i just want a wellmannered pet. I consider it proof that they can achieve something, and someone other than the owner thinks they are good dogs. And proof the breeder is interested in producing the best dogs they can. Most of the dogs in a litter end up in pet homes. I would want a CGC title too, probably, if they have agility titles but no obedience or conformation titles, to prove the dog can be calm and well mannered. 

It sounds like you are interested in producing non standard colours. For a more helpful answer, what colours were the parents, what colours does genetic testing indicate your male dog carries? What are the inheritance mechanisms of those colours? What colours do you wish to produce? There are tons of resources to learn about these things and more in some of the breeding forum links. -


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Sclemons said:


> Also, why I want to breed. Well, 2 5 yrs ago I got my non registered female poodle. I have had many dogs, but none like her. Her and I are inseparable. She is my best friend and I wouldn't take a million dollars for my $600 pup. Every one who knows me knows how special my dog is to me. So this is why I want to breed. I love the breed, they are the only dog I would every own. Every one who know me, says I missed my calling when it comes to dogs. I would like to breed solid, healthy, great temperaments dogs as pets for other people. Do I plan on owning slews of dogs.. NO. I have 2 dogs and plan on getting 1 more. That's all I will ever do because they need the attention that they deserve to have. My dogs are never outside except to play or use the bathroom. My dogs go everywhere with me on camping trips, boating. There is also a lot of people like me in the world that wants a healthy, good temperament, and just a dog as a great pet. Also, there is no other male dogs close to me. I live in the country. My dogs don't wonder because they are not outside without me. Behaviors I can correct. I'm very good at training dogs.


Breeding and raising puppies is very expensive and time consuming. Things can and often do go wrong, especially for novice breeders. I have had an experience with a problem called "fading puppy syndrome" where, one by one, the puppies die. No one knows why this occurs, but I just read that the average percentage of deaths in a litter is 30%. Even if all goes well, veterinary costs can be pretty expensive - worming, removing dewclaws, docking tails (optional - and few vets do it well), immunizations - it all adds up. If things do not go well it can get very expensive very fast and things can end tragically.

I can give you many, many more reasons, but I hope this is enough to make you think long and hard about breeding. If you are determined to go ahead, do try to find someone with a great deal of experience to mentor you.


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

Liz said:


> As a group here on PF, we tend to prefer well structured breeding programs, where the breeder has a deep understanding of the genetics of his/her breeding dogs and how well they meet conformation standards. What you're proposing is against the grain here, and you may not find a lot of support unless you find a mentor and work to educate yourself.
> 
> If you're serious about breeding, here's a quick guide to phantom color genetics. Many breeders are adopting BetterBred metrics when considering pairings. The main thrust of the information is that it would be best to wait until you know your dog's genetics and suitability for breeding before considering who to mate him with. He may be valuable as a stud dog, and the typical fee is the cost of one puppy.


Thank you. My question is if I am looking to breed way down the road. My pups mother was #5 in UKC last year. I am wanting to learn and I know the ins and outs of breeding. I plan on doing all health testing when appropriate. But, I want a female to raise with him as a puppy. If when they are of age and do not pass health requirements I will not breed. I will just have 2 new best friends


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

I've also had a litter of pups before of 11 and know what can go wrong. I had to bottle feed many of them and they were all raised in my home. But this time I want to do it correctly with all of the required testing( which I already know what I need to do) but colors is something I am trying to learn more about in pairing him


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Thank you, that's reassuring. As you can imagine, we get a lot of strange requests here, and sometimes we react defensively based on these experiences.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Yes, if you want phantom puppies you improve your chances by starting with two phantom parents. However, all kinds of recessives can get in there to mess things up. My parti-phantoms weren't supposed to be parti. One parent was black with cream, the other black with red. No white on either parent. The litter had colors ranging from solid cream to brown & cream phantom to tri-colors. Quite the rainbow.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Can you talk with the pup's mum's owner/breeder (whoever got her to UKC #5) about mentorship?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Moving this thread over to the Poodle Breeding sub-forum.


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

Liz said:


> Can you talk with the pup's mum's owner/breeder (whoever got her to UKC #5) about mentorship?


I just spoke with her, thanks


Liz said:


> Thank you, that's reassuring. As you can imagine, we get a lot of strange requests here, and sometimes we react defensively based on these experiences.


I'm sure you do, I should of been more thorough with my original post. My poodles will be pets first, and if I breed they will have all necessary testing and will be raised in my home.


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

cowpony said:


> Yes, if you want phantom puppies you improve your chances by starting with two phantom parents. However, all kinds of recessives can get in there to mess things up. My parti-phantoms weren't supposed to be parti. One parent was black with cream, the other black with red. No white on either parent. The litter had colors ranging from solid cream to brown & cream phantom to tri-colors. Quite the rainbow.


Thank you


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

Sclemons said:


> Thank you


I believe that is what happened here. His parents were 2 phantoms but had parti somewhere in their pedigree


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Especially when you are talking multi-colored poodles, there is no such thing as "the best color match". 
In solid colors, there are some ideal or not pairings (for example many will say not to breed a red with a brown).
Since you say your pup is too young for most health testing, maybe it would be a good idea to do DNA testing. Then you would know if he is a carrier for any diseases. If he is, you will already know that he should not be bred before you go any further. It will also give you COI, and might help you narrow down your search for what lines to avoid or look more into.


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

Starvt said:


> Especially when you are talking multi-colored poodles, there is no such thing as "the best color match".
> In solid colors, there are some ideal or not pairings (for example many will say not to breed a red with a brown).
> Since you say your pup is too young for most health testing, maybe it would be a good idea to do DNA testing. Then you would know if he is a carrier for any diseases. If he is, you will already know that he should not be bred before you go any further. It will also give you COI, and might help you narrow down your search for what lines to avoid or look more into.


Thank you, I am planning on doing the dna tests within the next month


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

Sclemons said:


> Thank you, I am planning on doing the dna tests within the next month


Would you recommend Embark, paw print, or wisdom panel?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Sclemons said:


> Would you recommend Embark, paw print, or wisdom panel?


I personally would start with a hip evaluation. If the results are Fair or less, you should be prepared for the possibility that his hips will not be considered breeding worthy when he reaches 2 years.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I've been told that Embark is better than Wisdom. I don't know a whole lot about Pawprint, but it's a lot more expensive from what I see!
I just did the Embark panel on my two dogs and will be sending it off this week.


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

cowpony said:


> I personally would start with a hip evaluation. If the results are Fair or less, you should be prepared for the possibility that his hips will not be considered breeding worthy when he reaches 2 years.


Do they do that on a 14 week old puppy?


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

If you can find a vet that does PennHip, that is a hip certification that can be done starting at 16 weeks. It does require sedation though.
When deciding what to check first, there is a few considerations:
Hips are more likely to be an issue (according to OFA breed statistics, 12% of all poodles have abnormal hips, I would assume more of those are standards than the smaller sizes).
The hip testing is, however, a bit more expensive and 'invasive'.
Would you want to know the DNA results, whether he is pet or breeding? I am doing it just for my own info. If you would want to know anyways, it might make more sense to start with that


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

Thanks so much for info. I will asking my vet next week about pennhip.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Both Pennhip and OFA hip testing are an xray evaluation of the hip but they focus on slightly different aspects, can be done at different ages (prelim and adult), and the OFA single view is contained within the three that comprise the Pennhip evaluation.
Either evaluation is acceptable for OFA but there is an additional fee for the breeder to register the Pennhip results.
The Poodle Club of America accepts either as valid tests.

Here's a link to fairly clear explanation. It won't just copy/paste normally for me:

http://www.wilsonvilleveterinaryclinic.com/documents/PennHIPvsOFA.pdf

See this link for recommended testing for the three varieties and which can be done at what age:





Recommended Testing - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.


Versatility In Poodles, Inc.




vipoodle.org





I haven't looked at the various companies DNA tests offered, but I'd look for one that tests additionally for color genes. Colors in poodles are fascinating, and even with testing and pedigree history, results can be unpredictable.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

A link to a site with info about breeding different colors





COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES


ARPEGGIO Poodles information on color breeding in poodles



arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com





I know you said you've had experience. This is a very comprehensive site which is also very sobering but without a mentor, even with, you can't be too prepared:





You want to breed your dog?


Information about breeding dogs




www.dogbreedinfo.com


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## Sclemons (Sep 10, 2020)

Thanks so much for the information!


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

Sclemons said:


> No disrespect, to you at all. But I'm not worried about titles. Just healthy, good temperaments and pets. I currently own a non registered poodle also which is 2.5 yrs old. She is very obedient, great temperament, and she is my best friend. Alot of people want quality healthy beautiful pets, not just titles. I had seriously thought about putting my female in agility, however where I'm at there is not much opportunity unless you like to travel far all the time.


Hello 👋 
I would purchase a Phantom female. What a nice Phantom Parti poodle you have. Titles and all that Jazz is not necessary or pertains to your question..


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Darling Darla said:


> ...I would purchase a Phantom female. What a nice Phantom Parti poodle you have. Titles and all that Jazz is not necessary or pertains to your question..


"All that jazz" is very important. At bare minimum, genetic testing will rule out if puppies in a litter will go blind by the age of 3 from a common poodle genetic eye condition known as PRA-prcd, or developed luxating patellas which is another common serious problem. This is where one or more knee caps hobble the poodle and requires expensive surgeries. Poodles have these and other genetic conditions, and you find out now using an Embark *Health* kit for $169 at the site, sometimes on sale and often found at drug stores, pet shops or Amazon. 

Their deluxe health kit will also tell you which color genes are in your dog.

Good breeding is an art, like learning how to fly a plane. You're the pilot, so take the time to learn how to fly it well, or you, your female and the litter you're already expecting are more likely to crash and burn.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome to Poodle Forum, Darla. 

Good tip from Vita. From a poodle owner's perspective, Embark was a great experience! I think they have a few different breeder-specific options, which I would consider bare minimum. Very inexpensive when compared against the cost of future medical bills for genetic conditions. (Not to mention the less tangible cost of heartache).


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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

Of course color isn't the most important thing when breeding - health and temperament are more important. But, if you want to produce certain colors then there is nothing wrong with that. 

You'll be able to make a better decision about your new puppy purchase when you have the color panel on your current male. If you want phantoms you'll need to find out if your boy carries cream/red. If so then you'll want to get a girl who does not carry it or each puppy will have a 50% chance of being solid cream. Cream/red covers phantom markings. If you get a parti puppy that does not have phantom markings, many of them are Kb/Kb or Kb/Ky. which drops your percentage of phantoms down to 50% or zero (from kb/kb). If the puppy inherits the kb then they will not express their phantom markings even if they inherit them. Brindle can muddy phantom markings, so that just depends on what you like. Lots of people love brindle pointed phantoms, I have one. Poodle color genetics is a super fun spider web of things to think about. LOL. 

Embark doesn't test for parti, but you don't need that test on your puppy as he definitely is parti. If you get a female who does not carry for parti then all of your puppies will be parti carriers, but none will be parti. So if you want partis get a parti or parti carrier. You can't tell a parti carrier by looking at them. They can appear solid. 

As everyone said - health testing is a necessity. DNA testing as well as heart, eyes and hips. Many of the DNA testing labs do color testing at the same time. I use Optimal Selection ($129), but Canine Health Check is gaining in popularity ($169 and I think they include PRA-RCD4) . 

Consider diversity testing with Betterbred.com. If your boy is well bred, which I assume he is out of a top ten dog, then he might also be a valuable stud and people will find you on betterbred. 

Best wishes on your puppy search and future plans.


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