# Why No European Lines



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I have no idea either! I am on a mission to bring more European dogs into my line to improve my diversity. If you stick with North American lines only, I would suspect you will see higher COI's and inbreeding going on somewhere in the pedigree.


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

With our Wheatens who were on their own AKC champs, we still sought Irish dogs to fortify the line and keep the wheaties in scale. Too many North American Wheatens were getting too light in color and too big. The European dogs added refinement and conformance to standard back into the lines.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Journey's breeder breeds for substance and bone. And you can see it crystal clear in this puppy. A lot of the reds here are lacking both. OR they are clunky with no refinement.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

There are a lot of beautiful dogs in Europe and I don't know why the breeder would make such a statement.

Both of my spoos are rescues, but when I get my next spoo (hopefully not for many years), I would love to find one from a show breeder who breeds for type and confirmation, puts other titles on their dogs, and every other generation (or two) outcrosses to a new line. I don't see it done much as many breeders either line breed tightly or they completely outcross and mostly concentrate on COI. I want something in between. Does that even exist????


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Poodle Lover said:


> I would love to find one from a show breeder who breeds for type and confirmation, puts other titles on their dogs, and every other generation (or two) outcrosses to a new line. I don't see it done much as many breeders either line breed tightly or they completely outcross and mostly concentrate on COI. I want something in between. Does that even exist????


Yes, it does exist. 

I can think of several breeders here in Ontario who would fit that bill! A few are members of this forum.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Countryboy said:


> Yes, it does exist.
> 
> I can think of several breeders here in Ontario who would fit that bill! A few are members of this forum.


I prefer not to have to ship a puppy. I know it's done all the time, but I want to meet the puppies and their parents.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Have you spoken to Susan Cook at Marquis Diamond? She is an awesome woman who has set the bar high for the rest of us, and I have chosen to follow her lead with regard to testing. She has some really glorious pups!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Actually, I was just thinkin'....

If I drove South of the border I would find several more good ones. *Aside from the problems(?) of gettin' a dog into Canada.* I met these breeders here.  

But too, we have a major population centre (abt 7 million in the Greater Toronto Area) and half-dozen breeders, three or four are members here, within a half day's drive from it. 

I'll bet u would find the same situation near any other major centres . . . maybe???


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## DivinityPoodles (Jan 23, 2012)

What 'problems' getting dogs into Canada from the States?? I drove down picked up the pups & a health certificate (which the border guards didn't ask for) and paid the tax arrrgghhh... tax on a dog :argh:

Did I miss something??? Yikes


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I have had zero problems shipping puppies to the US or shipping pups from the US. CB...what problems are there shipping pups cross border?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

From an Ontario breeder I would have expected a "Thanx for the vote of confidence, Frank. "

Instead I get questioned on one part of my post that, not knowing what might be involved, I put a question mark after the word. For me, a Health Certificate is a hassle . . a problem. In fact, for me, any kind of paperwork is a drag . . and to be avoided . . like an upcoming 'problem'.

If it's no problem for y'all . . . that's great. 

I hope ya didn't miss the REAL point of my post...


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Have you spoken to Susan Cook at Marquis Diamond? She is an awesome woman who has set the bar high for the rest of us, and I have chosen to follow her lead with regard to testing. She has some really glorious pups!


I haven't spoken to Susan or anyone else, as its just too early in a game for me. If I bring another dog into the house, I might be looking for a new home as well. .


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> From an Ontario breeder I would have expected a "Thanx for the vote of confidence, Frank. "
> 
> Instead I get questioned on one part of my post that, not knowing what might be involved, I put a question mark after the word. For me, a Health Certificate is a hassle . . a problem. In fact, for me, any kind of paperwork is a drag . . and to be avoided . . like an upcoming 'problem'.
> 
> ...


I did not know I was included in your recommendations. A sincere THANK YOU for the vote of confidence. :elephant::elephant:

The health certificates aren't an issue. We get them when we take the pups for their shot and physical for the babies being shipped. Some vets charge for them, some do not, but they are easy to obtain and put into the puppy packages.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Poodle Lover said:


> I haven't spoken to Susan or anyone else, as its just too early in a game for me. If I bring another dog into the house, I might be looking for a new home as well. .


LOL! I hear you! In one of the videos, you can hear me say "We need to get Journey a puppy. Everyone else is paired off" then you hear a very droll, very sarcastic "What a good idea" emanating from the kitchen. What Bruce did not hear was me saying "Next year!"

When you are ready, I'd give Susan a call. I have thee utmost respect for her, her ethics and her practices!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I have no idea either! I am on a mission to bring more European dogs into my line to improve my diversity. If you stick with North American lines only, I would suspect you will see higher COI's and inbreeding going on somewhere in the pedigree.


It's a great mission.. but true outcrosses to what we have here in North American are exquisitely rare. There are a lot of new and exciting names in Europe.. until you look at the pedigrees back to our bottleneck days. Turns out that the huge majority are all related to our dogs. One of the exceptions I see is with some of the old English apricot lines.. then the reverse holds true for the most part. Our (North American) poodles are all related to theirs! 

Guess what I'm saying is that even if you go with European dogs, in the majority of cases you will end up with inbreeding and a progressively increasing COI as well as Wycliffe influence. Someone proposed to me just recently that if obtaining new poodles for purposes of diversifying, the best way to go about it is not only to look at the names and numbers, but also to have DLA haplotype testing done, to ensure heterozygous MCH. The problem with that is..while we can breed in a manner which gives us heterozygous MHC, we still don't know which of the haplotypes are less desirable than others from a health standpoint.

Anyway.. there are some great poodles in the Europe, just as there are here in North America, but in most cases, the grass really isn't any greener on the other side of the fence.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Where does one start to look for new outcrosses to add to the breed?


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> It's a great mission.. but true outcrosses to what we have here in North American are exquisitely rare. There are a lot of new and exciting names in Europe.. until you look at the pedigrees back to our bottleneck days. Turns out that the huge majority are all related to our dogs. One of the exceptions I see is with some of the old English apricot lines.. then the reverse holds true for the most part. Our (North American) poodles are all related to theirs!


yes, I have seen a lot of Shangrila, Palmares, Farleys, Torbec and Majestic in the European reds, just as you do in the North American reds. Also, from the limited knowledge that I have, and trust me, it is limited, I have noticed that there is a lot of breeding to other colors of dogs in the European reds and as I understand it, unless the other color dog has a dominant red gene, you could sacrifice some color. 

I have noticed that the reds in North America do tend to be darker in color than the European dogs. While i think that there could be a possiblilty to potentially correct or improve some conformation charactaristics, you would likely then have to breed back to "dark" red to try to regain the color.

Like I said, I have limited knowledge in this area, but that is my take on what I have read - pardon the pun. ;-)


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## A'n'A Mom (Dec 4, 2010)

If you're serious about checking European pedigrees and the dog is listed on the PHRDB, set the # of pedigrees to 8 or 10 (it's up at Step 2). Lot's of things look very diverse at 5 generations. I recently ran a pedigree analysis of a European red SP.....and almost half the pedigree was North American blacks.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

At this point I am less worried about the Wycliffe influence and more interested in the Marcello/Red Royal Regal influence in the reds. Journey has Cello in her background once. No Regal, which is a huge deal for me. Enough already. I saw a pedigree yesterday of a red puppy where Regal appears eight or nine times in five gens.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

petitpie said:


> Where does one start to look for new outcrosses to add to the breed?


This is what I do:
I look Everywhere. Absolutely.. everywhere. All countries, all continents. Show breeders, backyard breeders, performance breeders. Basically, leave no stone unturned. If it's a poodle.. look. While doing it, gather health information, rumors of health information, educate about health issues, PHR, basically, the kinda stuff I try to do for this group.

I don't believe that there are any totally new outcrosses to be found. What I do believe is.. there are still a rare few poodles out there whose genetics are a bit uncommon. If those poodles are located and then a careful linebreeding program is developed around them, it will enable the breed to carry on with a source of outcrosses when needed. It's critical to locate those uncommon genetics ASAP. One of the other problems is.. health issues. There isn't a line that doesn't have health issues. So how do you deal with them when you come across something that may be something special genetically? 

Here is a current dilemma.. and I would LOVE to hear everyone's thoughts on this one. It's a toughy.

I very recently came across a boy with exactly the type of pedigree I am referring to. Very little Wycliffe (less than 10% in a pedigree that consists of standard poodles for many generations (!)), linebred (groan.. puts the COI around 12%.. I prefer half that). Here's the big issue.. he has produced both Addison's as well as hip dysplasia. So, we know that both of these disorders are believed to be polygenic with environmental influences and triggers... is this boy worth moving ahead with? A very short time ago.. I would have said "no way, neuter him!".. time has passed, I've learned more. I'm not ready to throw this baby out with the bath water. I've yet to see a line that doesn't have health issues. He appears to be structurally sound and has a super sweet, easy going termperament. People who have owned his offspring can't say enough good about the temperaments in the offspring. 
What to do....dilemmas....


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

See my reply inside:




cavon said:


> yes, I have seen a lot of Shangrila, Palmares, Farleys, Torbec and Majestic in the European reds, just as you do in the North American reds.Absolutely. However.. with the reds and apricots.. things get a bit more twisted.. most of the American stuff goes back to the old European apricots! So from there (Europe) to here (North America) back to there (Europe) again.. Also, from the limited knowledge that I have, and trust me, it is limited, I have noticed that there is a lot of breeding to other colors of dogs in the European reds and as I understand it, unless the other color dog has a dominant red gene, you could sacrifice some color.
> 
> I have noticed that the reds in North America do tend to be darker in color than the European dogs.My ignorance is most likely going to show here.. so Arreau, NOLA.. or someone else with reds.. please correct me if I'm in error. I believe it has been only in recent years that the red poodles were recognized in most countries. Prior to that, reds were often registered as apricots.. if they were to be registered at all.
> 
> ...


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*Excellent point!!!!*



ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> At this point I am less worried about the Wycliffe influence and more interested in the Marcello/Red Royal Regal influence in the reds. Journey has Cello in her background once. No Regal, which is a huge deal for me. Enough already. I saw a pedigree yesterday of a red puppy where Regal appears eight or nine times in five gens.


Yes!
I am really concerned with what I am seeing in the reds (and apricots as well as other colors). I'm concerned about two things: Common sires and the other.. a genetic bottleneck within the red lines. Shame on me, but I have referred to that as a "*******" elsewhere.

Lynn Brucker currently has an incredible computer database.. which is able to work up a lot of populations genetics information. I think she's really busy right now doing things with the Standard Poodle Project and the MHC studies.. however I plan on asking her about common sires and bottlenecks within the individual colors.

One of the biggest lessons we have to learn from Wycliffe is.. how to avoid it happening again in the future. Thank you Arreau for being aware of the risks!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Well, I will be honest, I am guilty. I used the same male three times with plans to breed the resulting girls away from him. He has Regal behind him. And now I know better, and while I love this boy and am thankful for what he brought to the table, in all honestly, if I never see Regal's name again it will be fine with me! So for me, I am looking for strong pedigrees without the two males who seem to be predominant nearly everywhere one looks, everywhere in the world. And as a breeder of reds, THIS is a much bigger issue than the Wycliffe bottleneck.

And yes, you are correct. Until recently, red was not a recognized or accepted colour in FCI countries. So the reds were registered and shown as apricots. A lot of the reds listed in pedigrees are listed as apricot, so to research these dogs to know what they actually are, you need to go to the web site, if there is one and look at photos. I have been pleasantly surprised many times, particularly in Quincy's dam's side of his pedigree, just how many reds there are! The European breeders who are doing things right are producing decent, not incredible colour, but incredible structure. That is where my money is right now. Bring on the chests, tail sets, pigment and underjaw!

Lol! *******! Love it!!


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## SarainPA (Nov 18, 2011)

Yadda... I personally would be uncomfortable breeding to a dog that is known to have had pups with those issues. No, there is no perfect dog anywhere and yes, some people feel that these issues can be enviroment related - but they can also be passed down. 

Just my 2 cents


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

SarainPA said:


> Yadda... I personally would be uncomfortable breeding to a dog that is known to have had pups with those issuesMe too. I know what it feels like to breed a fully health tested bitch (later to become AD affected) to a fully health tested stud(later to produce Addison's when bred to a different bitch). I know what it feels like to proudly place a puppy in a home with it's new owner and a year later, to have the mother of that pup be diagnosed with sebaceous adenitis.. with no close up SA anywhere in the pedigree. I finally realized, that there simply are no guarantees. . No, there is no perfect dog anywhere and yes, some people feel that these issues can be environment related - but they can also be passed down. You will find me the first to agree that there is a strong genetic component with both AD and HD. I am gradually, oh so gradually starting to accept what the scientists have been telling us for years.. that it takes interaction between genetics and environment in order for these issues to express. I've spent years looking at pedigrees (really and truly, years)--I believe that the genetics for HD is throughout the entire breed.. that every single breeding poodle out there is perfectly capable of producing hip dysplasia in offspring IF the environmental conditions are ripe for it AND if that choice of mate is also one that contributes the "right" (or wrong) mix of genetics. According to researchers, AD follows the same rules of inheritance as HD. I have heard rumors of lines without AD. I've yet to see one and am guessing that if there really are such lines that they are few and far between.


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## SarainPA (Nov 18, 2011)

Yadda ~ I had a lovely blue bitch that I bred in the 80's and was super careful as to who I bred her to. Made sure all of the testing was done, researched the lines, etc. Ended up with a nice litter of 9 puppies - the silvers and blues I was hoping for. Homes were waiting - several show homes. At 3 weeks, I started noticing 2 pups that just seemed "different". (Benefit of raising them in the kitchen - saw them all of the time LOL!). Week 4 - I was sure 2 had sight problems. After finding a vet that specialized in such things found out that 2 never developed retinas. After many calls, the male's owner told me that "_she knew it wasn't her dog - it had to be from my bitch ...since it had only happened *ONE* other time in all of the litters he sired"_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hello????? Needless to say, everyone was neutered to prevent any chances of it being passed down.
Sometimes, no matter how hard we try, crappy things happen :-(


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> SarainPA said:
> 
> 
> > Yadda... I personally would be uncomfortable breeding to a dog that is known to have had pups with those issuesMe too. I know what it feels like to breed a fully health tested bitch (later to become AD affected) to a fully health tested stud(later to produce Addison's when bred to a different bitch). I know what it feels like to proudly place a puppy in a home with it's new owner and a year later, to have the mother of that pup be diagnosed with sebaceous adenitis.. with no close up SA anywhere in the pedigree. I finally realized, that there simply are no guarantees. . No, there is no perfect dog anywhere and yes, some people feel that these issues can be environment related - but they can also be passed down. You will find me the first to agree that there is a strong genetic component with both AD and HD. I am gradually, oh so gradually starting to accept what the scientists have been telling us for years.. that it takes interaction between genetics and environment in order for these issues to express. I've spent years looking at pedigrees (really and truly, years)--I believe that the genetics for HD is throughout the entire breed.. that every single breeding poodle out there is perfectly capable of producing hip dysplasia in offspring IF the environmental conditions are ripe for it AND if that choice of mate is also one that contributes the "right" (or wrong) mix of genetics. According to researchers, AD follows the same rules of inheritance as HD. I have heard rumors of lines without AD. I've yet to see one and am guessing that if there really are such lines that they are few and far between.
> ...


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

SarainPA said:


> ........ After many calls, the male's owner told me that "_she knew it wasn't her dog - it had to be from my bitch ...since it had only happened *ONE* other time in all of the litters he sired"_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hello????? Needless to say, everyone was neutered to prevent any chances of it being passed down.
> Sometimes, no matter how hard we try, crappy things happen :-(


I simply can not imagine how you must have felt. 

I am so glad that we have PHR now. This is a perfect example of why it is so critical for everyone to make use of PHR by reporting health issues. 

I am so sorry for your puppies and this tragic experience.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

@CM--That makes perfect sense to me.

Thinking along those lines is one of the things that has had me in a bit of a dilemma about this particular boy. 

It's tough trying to figure out high risk/low risk sometimes.

For example, if I look on PHR and find a whole litter (exaggeration for the sake of making a point) of pups who are HD affected.. well, is it because the genetics were crap (high risk), or were they raised under less than optimal conditions? If pups from an unrelated litter were raised under the same conditions, would they too have developed HD?...Pretty much the same questions with AD.

Something else that intrigues me--we know that any poodle can produce hip dysplasia, but how about "bad hipped" poodles producing better hips. When I pull up the affecteds list there are several poodles who have had HD who have been bred. The majority of those have offspring listed who were tested as not dysplastic (there are exceptions, there are a couple of dysplastics who produced dysplastic offspring).


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> I very recently came across a boy with exactly the type of pedigree I am referring to. Very little Wycliffe (less than 10% in a pedigree that consists of standard poodles for many generations (!)), linebred (groan.. puts the COI around 12%.. I prefer half that). Here's the big issue.. he has produced both Addison's as well as hip dysplasia. So, we know that both of these disorders are believed to be polygenic with environmental influences and triggers... is this boy worth moving ahead with? A very short time ago.. I would have said "no way, neuter him!".. time has passed, I've learned more. I'm not ready to throw this baby out with the bath water. I've yet to see a line that doesn't have health issues. He appears to be structurally sound and has a super sweet, easy going termperament. People who have owned his offspring can't say enough good about the temperaments in the offspring.
> What to do....dilemmas....


I think whether it's responsible for you use him or not depends on what you do with the puppies.

If you find homes before breeding with other breeders interested in genetic diversity and aware of the issues with this dog, I can't think any reasonable person would find that unethical. If you do have puppies that you decide to sell to the public, be open about the risk from the start, and make sure your customers know how to recognise possible Addison's symptoms.

His COI is not an issue if the bitch you are planning to use him is unrelated enough to produce pups of an acceptably low COI. The trouble with writing off this dog because he has produced these issues is that we don't know at the moment exactly what causes autoimmune disease and bodily dysfunctions such as bloat and hip dysplasia. At the moment, it's theorised they are caused either by lack of genetic diversity, conformation and body size, or a combination of environmental and genetic factors. Autoimmune conditions are also on the rise in humans, and humans are probably the most genetically diverse as they've ever been. In humans, autoimmune conditions are theorised to be because of excessive environmental hygiene, lack of parasites, artificial substances in the environment, medicines, or dietary intolerances. Dogs and humans are in effect symbionts. Quite possibly there may be a common factor.

If people stop using dogs whose offspring have had these conditions on the assumption their genetics are at fault, and then some scientist in a few year's time makes an eureka discovery that it's pesticides/ water chlorination/ acrylamide and HCAs/ additives in dog food or something else entirely, we will have thrown away valuable diversity by relying on popular theory instead of evidence.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Posted by *Zyrcona*;

"Autoimmune conditions are also on the rise in humans, and humans are probably the most genetically diverse as they've ever been. In humans, autoimmune conditions are theorised to be because of ... artificial substances in the environment, medicines, or dietary intolerances. Dogs and humans are in effect symbionts. Quite possibly there may be a common factor."

"If people stop using dogs whose offspring have had these conditions on the assumption their genetics are at fault, and then some scientist in a few year's time makes an ... discovery that it's pesticides/ water chlorination/.../additives in dog food...., we will have thrown away valuable diversity by relying on popular theory instead of evidence."


Many scientists in this country have already come to these discoveries:

RUSSELLBLAYLOCKMD.COM


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

petitpie said:


> RUSSELLBLAYLOCKMD.COM


From what I can tell, this person isn't anything to do with research about autoimmune reactions in either humans or dogs. He appears to be a mere crook with a background in neuroscience (i.e. the study of the nervous system) who went over to the Dark Side to participate in conspiracy theories and get rich off miracle cures for cancer.

Russell Blaylock, M.D. - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

There is a big difference between making theories and speculating on what might cause things and putting in the time and effort to collect data in the proper manner to test the theories and analysing it to get results. There may very well be merit in some of the theories mentioned on that page, but until there is more information on them no-one can claim to be an authority on whether they are or aren't safe. I for one have strong suspicions about aspartame (it tastes _disgusting _and I can't understand why people don't just drink water or tea etc. if they can't have sugary things) or aluminium in food and deodorants, but for me to go about spreading misinformation and telling other people they are poisonous when I have no evidence to that effect would be very irresponsible. People like this are abusing their doctorates to put a veneer of respectability on behaviour that is completely unrespectable.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

"Here is a current dilemma.. and I would LOVE to hear everyone's thoughts on this one. It's a toughy.

I very recently came across a boy with exactly the type of pedigree I am referring to. Very little Wycliffe (less than 10% in a pedigree that consists of standard poodles for many generations (!)), linebred (groan.. puts the COI around 12%.. I prefer half that). Here's the big issue.. he has produced both Addison's as well as hip dysplasia. So, we know that both of these disorders are believed to be polygenic with environmental influences and triggers... is this boy worth moving ahead with? A very short time ago.. I would have said "no way, neuter him!".. time has passed, I've learned more. I'm not ready to throw this baby out with the bath water. I've yet to see a line that doesn't have health issues. He appears to be structurally sound and has a super sweet, easy going termperament. People who have owned his offspring can't say enough good about the temperaments in the offspring. 
What to do....dilemmas...."

*Yaddaluvpoodles*

I've learned from your posts on poodle health and diversity, as what you say makes sense to me. And with that, I would give this nice boy a chance to improve those qualities for the poodle breed for the future.


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