# Ethical and Responsible Breeding Discussion



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Not puppies, but kittens. A neighbor has a couple of indoor/outdoor cats. One of them became pregnant before she was spayed really sort of accidentally on purpose. The mom said they were happy that their kids would see the miracle of birth and the growth of the little ones. The mama cat became very distrustful of people after giving birth and is now a really nasty cat. It is very sad. That miracle of birth for the benefit of children line really rubs me the wrong way whether it is puppies, kittens or for that matter gerbils or hamsters.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

We never have enough of these responsible breeding posts. Thank you.

Besides the fact that breeding and raising puppies requires a lot of care and knowledge, before and after the fact, my main concern is pet overpopulation.

If I didn’t have severe allergies, I would be getting my dogs from rescues. We have too many dogs already on this planet, we don’t need more hobby breeders. We need to take full responsability for those dogs who don’t have a home.

I might have a radical point of view, but I think not everyone should be able to breed and there should be restrictions. So many of those dogs end up having health problems, poor temperaments, socialization problems, ect. All because ordinary owners think their dog needs to experience having babies. Or they want to have a puppy of their own from their dog, because they love it and think it will be wonderful. And others want to make a quick buck. And let’s not forget those horrible puppy mills.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I am struggling emotionally right now. Eight years ago I made the decision to get a maltipoo from a breeder. I know, not a wise decision. This is the sweetest dog I have ever had but his kneecap issues have taken over his life. He is only 8 years old. He is now in for 2 major surgeries....it's reached the point where the first will happen within weeks. His parents never should have been bred. People also shouldn't support such breeders who don't health test their dogs (don't get a dog from them no matter how cute). I want his breeder to feel the emotional pain I am in right now watching him be in pain. The only way to stop people from making the decision I made is to educate them. I made a mistake and now I am paying for it....but I also wouldn't change having him for the world. This is my story but I know many people share this painful story.

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## Ghost (Feb 7, 2019)

Dechi said:


> If I didn’t have severe allergies, I would be getting my dogs from rescues. We have too many dogs already on this planet, we don’t need more hobby breeders. And others want to make a quick buck. And let’s not forget those horrible puppy mills.



Here here.
I have pretty severe asthma & allergies. (Personally besides a traumatic breakup with my fiancé, I think this was a major trigger for my OCD becoming much worse.) 
despite this, I tried adopting from a shelter after Moses passed. It was a horrible experience for us as it turned out the dog had serious aggression towards smaller kids, but the shelter had cleared her as a kid friendly pet. I couldn’t let her go back to the shelter so I found her a new home (they had older children, preteens) and she was MUCH happier there. It took several years before we were able to think about another dog and then I searched for a long time until something felt right. But two days ago we were in a small town mall and there were miniature poodle puppy mill pups in rusty cages being sold for $700. It was heartbreaking. And husky pups, others as well. I started crying as we walked away. Responsible breeders will have experience vetting families and potential owners. Hobby breeders likely won’t, and the potential for those pups to end up with puppy mills is huge. I can’t condone it. So much knowledge and time and experience goes into thoughtful breeding programs. Not only that but people underestimate the amount of money it takes to properly breed a litter. The genetic testing required prior to mating the dogs, the testing and visits during the pregnancy, the labor process! The vaccinations and health care for the pups after, the continued grooming of the mother to keep her healthy (a clean dog is a healthy dog, IMO) introducing puppies to grooming (especially important for poodle pups) ...
I was fortunate to grow up in a rural setting, around plenty of animals (grandparents owned a cattle ranch/horse farm/best friends family raised sheep. The labor process can be particularly dangerous for the inexperienced. Not only can the pups die but so can the mum. 

Sorry if I got away with myself and started rambling/venting but I guess I feel rather passionately about this.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Dogs4Life said:


> I am struggling emotionally right now. Eight years ago I made the decision to get a maltipoo from a breeder. I know, not a wise decision. This is the sweetest dog I have ever had but his kneecap issues have taken over his life. He is only 8 years old. He is now in for 2 major surgeries....it's reached the point where the first will happen within weeks. His parents never should have been bred. People also shouldn't support such breeders who don't health test their dogs (don't get a dog from them no matter how cute). I want his breeder to feel the emotional pain I am in right now watching him be in pain. The only way to stop people from making the decision I made is to educate them. I made a mistake and now I am paying for it....but I also wouldn't change having him for the world. This is my story but I know many people share this painful story.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I'm so sorry you are going through that with your baby, Dogs4Life  I hope the surgery will be life changing for him. We had a little shelter Maltese/Poodle mix who had to have patella surgery and it worked very well for her. She went on to live to 16, pain-free. Best wishes.


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## Ghost (Feb 7, 2019)

Dogs4Life said:


> I am struggling emotionally right now. Eight years ago I made the decision to get a maltipoo from a breeder. I know, not a wise decision. This is the sweetest dog I have ever had but his kneecap issues have taken over his life. He is only 8 years old. He is now in for 2 major surgeries....it's reached the point where the first will happen within weeks. His parents never should have been bred. People also shouldn't support such breeders who don't health test their dogs (don't get a dog from them no matter how cute). I want his breeder to feel the emotional pain I am in right now watching him be in pain. The only way to stop people from making the decision I made is to educate them. I made a mistake and now I am paying for it....but I also wouldn't change having him for the world. This is my story but I know many people share this painful story.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I am so sorry for you both. I wish you two the very best of luck during surgery and hope all goes well and improves the quality of life for you both.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Here here.
> I have pretty severe asthma & allergies. (Personally besides a traumatic breakup with my fiancé, I think this was a major trigger for my OCD becoming much worse.)
> despite this, I tried adopting from a shelter after Moses passed. It was a horrible experience for us as it turned out the dog had serious aggression towards smaller kids, but the shelter had cleared her as a kid friendly pet. I couldn’t let her go back to the shelter so I found her a new home (they had older children, preteens) and she was MUCH happier there. It took several years before we were able to think about another dog and then I searched for a long time until something felt right. But two days ago we were in a small town mall and there were miniature poodle puppy mill pups in rusty cages being sold for $700. It was heartbreaking. And husky pups, others as well. I started crying as we walked away. Responsible breeders will have experience vetting families and potential owners. Hobby breeders likely won’t, and the potential for those pups to end up with puppy mills is huge. I can’t condone it. So much knowledge and time and experience goes into thoughtful breeding programs. Not only that but people underestimate the amount of money it takes to properly breed a litter. The genetic testing required prior to mating the dogs, the testing and visits during the pregnancy, the labor process! The vaccinations and health care for the pups after, the continued grooming of the mother to keep her healthy (a clean dog is a healthy dog, IMO) introducing puppies to grooming (especially important for poodle pups) ...
> I was fortunate to grow up in a rural setting, around plenty of animals (grandparents owned a cattle ranch/horse farm/best friends family raised sheep. The labor process can be particularly dangerous for the inexperienced. Not only can the pups die but so can the mum.
> ...


I am all for ethical breeders as well. I didn’t mention it because most people already know this about me. I have all the respect in the world for passionate, devoted breeders who allow breeds to be better and give us wonderful pets.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Ghost said:


> Sorry if I got away with myself and started rambling/venting but I guess I feel rather passionately about this.


You are on the right thread, in good company :love2:


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I am hoping it all works out for him. Everything took a turn for the worse recently. I am still researching surgeons. His normal vet has one but the surgeon isn't available. I was hoping I would have until summer when I could be home with him after the surgery 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Thank you, Ghost. You are in the right thread to tell your story. How difficult a time you've had. Btw...when the term "hobby breeder" is used, it actually does refer (at least to my understanding) to responsible breeders...breeders that breed dogs _not _for making money, but on a small scale to improve the breed. That is opposed to large scale breeders with loads of kennels, loads of dogs, loads of different breeds and it's just a big money making operation. Or "back yard" breeders who breed without any knowledge of what they're doing, are using no science, no health testing and will sell to about anyone with money.

Dogs4life, I'm so sorry you're having such a sad time. Your post is much appreciated though, because more people need to read things like this because they just don't get it...just refuse to be receptive to information such as yours. 

Thanks all, for your input. I can only hope that contrary to my suspicion, the people who really, really need to read stuff like this...sadly don't.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Btw...when the term "hobby breeder" is used, it actually does refer (at least to my understanding) to responsible breeders...breeders that breed dogs _not _for making money, but on a small scale to improve the breed. That is opposed to large scale breeders with loads of kennels, loads of dogs, loads of different breeds


My bad, I think I used the expression «*hobby breeder*» in the wrong way. English is not my first language and sometimes I am not as spot on as I would like to be.


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## Ghost (Feb 7, 2019)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Thank you, Ghost. You are in the right thread to tell your story. How difficult a time you've had. Btw...when the term "hobby breeder" is used, it actually does refer (at least to my understanding) to responsible breeders...breeders that breed dogs _not _for making money, but on a small scale to improve the breed. That is opposed to large scale breeders with loads of kennels, loads of dogs, loads of different breeds and it's just a big money making operation. Or "back yard" breeders who breed without any knowledge of what they're doing, are using no science, no health testing and will sell to about anyone with money.


I definitely used “hobby breeder” wrong, my apologies. Had some bubbly rosé tonight (celebrating my braces finally being removed... no longer a teenager, I’m back in my 30s again lol)
“Backyard breeder” always felt to me like a reference to a puppy mill, so I guess the small scale/irresponsible pet breeders are what I was incorrectly referring to. Obviously puppy mills don’t care about vet care/testing/education, etc, but neither do pet owners when they find themselves in the situation of bringing about litters (whether kitten/pup/whatever).

As a timid beginner aquarist, I also see so many people go into the aquarium hobby without realizing the damage they’re causing (fish in bowls ::shudder:: - fish without heaters, or filters, absolutely NO clue what a nitrogen cycle is) but simply don’t care that they don’t know things, nor try and rectify this. 
Just because they can survive it doesn’t mean they should live like that. The same should be said for those breeding animals - just because they survive it doesn’t mean it was ideal. I see too many people in the aquarium hobby shrug things off because “it’s not terrible” but that’s a really poor excuse and I feel the same way about pet breeders. 

Bringing life into the world should be done with the utmost care and consideration, planning and thought.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> I can only hope that contrary to my suspicion, the people who really, really need to read stuff like this...sadly don't.


Before I go on, I simply must fix this horrendous mistake in grammar. It said the opposite of what I meant. It is a terrible sentence and can not be fixed all in one sentence without making it into the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest run-on sentence in the world. (that was the 2nd longest) What I'm trying to say is that I hope that people who need to read about responsible breeding will read more. But that is contrary to my suspicion. People who need to read and get educated the most, sadly don't. :alberteinstein:

Ghost! Congrats on getting your braces off. What a wonderful feeling. I remember that when I was about 20 or so. 

We have another thing in common. I always had aquariums since I was a kid and up until about 2010. I bred fancy guppies which had their own tank and any other fish that just happened to breed in my community tank...the live bearers. I'd use surface plants and fed them often just a little so they wouldn't eat the babies. Or sometimes I used a breeding trap. They were for my own use...didn't sell them. But I never knew anything special about being responsible with breeding fresh water tropical fish. I just let them live and do their thing. I remember cleaning my aquariums every Saturday and feeding them frozen brine shrimp sometimes. Do you still have aquariums? What kind of fish do you have? Fresh water or salt water? I've gotten so I don't want as much to take care of so I'll just stick with my dogs. But you are young and have lots of time and energy no doubt to keep it up. Good luck. 

Oh, and no apologies needed for not knowing that terminology. It's a strange term I think to describe a responsible, ethical breeder because the word, "hobby" just sounds so casual and non-serious. And it is a very serious and important thing to breed correctly. But that's what they say...hobby breeder = a small scale, ethical breeder who does all the right things when breeding their dogs, some of which are listed in previous posts. They're doing it as an art, a challenge to do all the right things to improve upon the last generation and improve the breed as a whole. It's an interest. They show their dogs or work them in some capacity that shows the dog can do what it was bred to do...is capable. It's a passion, a big interest. I guess that's why they're called hobby breeders. And that hobby breeder is nothing like a back yard breeder who may do some responsible things but not enough or they don't know what they're doing and make some really bad choices I think they often love their dogs but haven't taken the interest or time to learn about proper breeding. There are degrees with this I think. And neither is like the worst of the worst...the puppy mills, huge scale breeders who don't give a damn about their dogs and just do it for money, nothing else. They're inhumane and ought to be shot! Okay...I'm getting heated up. :angry::argh:


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

This really is a fascinating topic! In the interest of intellectual learning, I'm going to broach some potentially thorny questions and see what everyone thinks:

1). It seems that most or all of the objections against designer dogs come from the fact that most designer dog breeders are out to make a quick buck by breeding untested and therefore potentially unhealthy dogs, indiscriminately. But, what if a breeder takes the best, most healthy/rigorously tested dogs from two breeds to cross? This is how most of the breeds today came about in the first place. So, if a breeder truly has the intention of trying to combine the best of X breed with the best of Y breed to create a Z breed, is there anything fundamentally wrong with that?

2). Within our poodle world, it seems some people have a fundamental aversion against inter-variety breeding (e.g. breeding a standard poodle to a miniature poodle). As far as I can tell, the aversion stems from the concern that breeding two dogs of very different sizes will produce structurally unsound/unhealthy offsprings. But, what if the inter-variety breeding doesn't involve two dogs of drastically disparate sizes - e.g how about an oversize 17-inch mini bred to a relatively small 22-inch standard? Isn't this the easiest way to address the concern over the genetic bottlenecks that currently plague standard poodles, without increasing the odds of structural unsoundness?

3). Can "ethical" breeding of certain breeds even exist? I'm talking about breeds that are known for a wealth of health issues that cannot be weeded out, or even reduced significantly, through current testing - Dalmatians, Dobermans, Great Danes, among others. My point is, no matter how "ethical" a breeder strives to be in mating the seemingly healthiest and most rigorously tested dogs within these breeds, given the current states of these breeds, there is no way to significantly improve the health/longevity of these dogs. So, just because you're doing better than the horrible averages among these breeds, does that make you "ethical"? 

I personally have not arrived at definitive conclusions on these issues, so just curious what everyone else thinks! 

Kevin


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Kchen, you raise intersting questions, although I think the first two questions have been discussed quite a bit here. I am sure the topics can be expanded on but I want to address the last question.

Your last question is something I’ve grappled with as well, how ethical is it to perpetuate a breed that will always have health problems? You raised some examples, such as the Dalmatians...although I think there is hope for that breed with the outcrossing. When I think of this issue, breeds with inherent structural defects come to mind, and the selective breeding done to exaggerate these traits.

For example, brachycephalic breeds, how fair is it to selectively breed for short squat faces that inhibit breathing? Or to overly exaggerate a long back that sentences the dog to a lifetime risk of back problems that require surgical intervention. Is that fair to the dog...or even to the human who now needs to shell out thousands of dollars just so their pet can maintain mobility?

In my opinion, perpetuating and selectively breeding for a structure that puts the animal at significant risk for health problems seems cruel to me. I don’t believe these breeds should go extinct, but there should be a clarion call within the breed clubs to revert to older, less exaggerated traits. The pressure to title a dog complicates this issue, and it is truly a complicated issue. It’s easy for me to comment from the outside looking in, but those are my observations and thoughts. 

I don’t see poodles as falling in this category. Although the body and face has become more refined, it is still functional. I look at my little Gracie, who I believe is a well bred poodle, and she is the picture of health and vigor. As my husband like she to say “she is a real dog”. 

Good breeding in poodles selectively breeds out structural defects like hip, knee, eye problems-which is why good breeding practices are important. When I volunteered in rescue, I noticed there were a lot of blind poodles, that’s a perfect example of the heartbreak for dogs that are victims of poor breeding practices. 

OK, enough on the pulpit for me. Time to go to work and apply some of this energy to a paycheck that keeps my dogs in the life they have grown accustomed to!


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Just wanted to say that as someone who knew nothing about dogs one year ago and who almost bought a miniature poodle from a local backyard breeder, I’m grateful for threads like this that also serve to educate the potential buyer. It wasn’t until I stumbled on this forum that I really started learning about the importance of buying from a reputable breeder that does all health testing. Now we have two toy poodles from two different amazing breeders, and I guarantee I wouldn’t have them without having found this forum and threads like this. So thank you for continuing to share important information! &#55358;&#56688;


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Kchen...you definitely bring up points that have gone round and round many of our heads and in fact, I'm quite sure we've talked about these things before. It's always on most of our minds I think. It's a real dilemma regarding domestic dogs. They've been "over bred" for so long that the gene pools are pathetically shrunken and there are bottle necks springing up all over the place. Is it unethical to keep breeding the purebreds? That is a big question for sure. The thing is of course, if they were to stop all breeding, domestic dogs would go extinct and we can't have that. (Peta would love it but most people wouldn't and I don't think most dogs would either. haha) If they were to stop all breeding of purebreds, we'd lose all these years of hard work to get these individual breeds with all the traits anyone could possibly want. There are something like 400 breeds of dogs. Not all are of a breed club like AKC but there are loads of distinct breeds. 

When we generally talk about ethical or responsible breeders, we're not talking about those who breed mixed breeds. They generally do not have the cream of the crop in their lines because most purebred breeders who are careful and strive to breed healthier dogs don't let their dogs go to someone who will breed mixed breed dogs. We could lose the uniformity in purebred dogs if this happened more than it does. We don't need more mixed breeds. Are these designer breeders trying to create a new breed by mixing them? I don't think so. To create a new breed there's a whole lot more to it than what I've seen so far. And we really (imo) don't need more breeds of dogs. There are some 400! Surely there's one in there that will be just right for anyone and everyone.

Out-crossing is a very viable method of diversifying the gene pool. It is something to consider for sure. But it must be done by breeders who know what the heck they're doing. It has to be done carefully and scientifically. Are these designer breeders doing that? I don't think so. Maybe I'm wrong. But I haven't seen anything much on that order from these designer breeders. 

I absolutely agree that breeding dogs that all started out by people selecting for mutations is disgusting and cruel. (bracheocephalic, Achondroplastic and anything else that's damaging to an animal's health) Those breeds really do need to be either modified or discontinued. Akc is in part, responsible I think...by rewarding extremes. Look what they've done to the GSD, one of my favorite breeds.

The health of our purebred dogs is in deep trouble. I think more than titles and ribbons from AKC, to breed, a dog needs to be able to physically and mentally perform what it was bred to do or something representative of what he was bred to do. For instance, if I had a sheep farm, I wouldn't go looking for a Border Collie with AKC titles or champions in conformation. I'd get one from a fellow sheep farmer who bred dogs that could run all day and do their job, had good longevity in the lines and good temperament. I wouldn't look at much else.

But breed clubs do have their place. They ensure that the homogeneity of our breeds stay relatively stable. Again, without some kind of over-seeing, we could lose our individual breeds. Maybe that's a good thing though. (?) That's something to ponder also I guess. I wouldn't like it I don't think. But maybe a little variation wouldn't hurt and if it created healthier dogs by making a larger genetic pool, then quite possibly that would be a good thing. Points to ponder...


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

I definitely don't think all purebred breeding should stop. The healthiest/smartest breeds, bred by the most conscientious breeders within those breeds, have higher pet potential, on average, than the average rescued mutts. This is not true with every single dog - of course there are rescued mutts that have tremendous pet potential - but in terms of overall probability, given what I've observed, I am comfortable making this general assertion. 

I compare the 3 purebreds I've had myself from top breeders - 1 Sheltie (who's passed) and 2 current Poodles - as well as other healthy/smart purebreds I know, with the mutts that my friends and family have adopted, and there is no doubt that the well-bred purebreds are more social, more stable in temperament, and have fewer behavioral issues. The health part is pretty even between mutts and well-bred purebreds - both, from what I've observed, have been generally healthy and vigorous. The big difference is sociability and stability/predictability in temperament. Having said that, ONLY the well-bred purebreds are as healthy as mutts, so this is why I keep emphasizing that I'm only talking about purebreds from select few breeds and from top breeders within those breeds. That is a small sub-set of purebreds. 

Kevin


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

It would be interesting to see if there are any groups out there doing some serious research on saving our purebred dogs...their future, because without some planning and serious work, I'm afraid they're on the downhill slide. More and more breeding of the same dogs. A fantastic dog is bred a kazillion times, then down the road some defect or gene screw up is discovered and all the offspring are passing it on. I don't know that the 2 year old "rule" for waiting until breeding is good enough. Some things aren't detectable until later. I wonder if there's any kind of investigation or real work being done regarding the idea of some good, effective out crossing...but done in such a way that we don't lose the relative uniformity in breeds. Something's got to happen to turn things around or I'm afraid the future looks bleak for many, many purebred dogs. Am I being pessimistic? :sad2:


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> It would be interesting to see if there are any groups out there doing some serious research on saving our purebred dogs...their future, because without some planning and serious work, I'm afraid they're on the downhill slide. More and more breeding of the same dogs. A fantastic dog is bred a kazillion times, then down the road some defect or gene screw up is discovered and all the offspring are passing it on. I don't know that the 2 year old "rule" for waiting until breeding is good enough. Some things aren't detectable until later. I wonder if there's any kind of investigation or real work being done regarding the idea of some good, effective out crossing...but done in such a way that we don't lose the relative uniformity in breeds. Something's got to happen to turn things around or I'm afraid the future looks bleak for many, many purebred dogs. Am I being pessimistic? :sad2:



Yup this "popular sire syndrome" is behind a lot of the ills of the purebred world. A complement is the fact that while the AKC, other breed organizations and breeders tout their devotion to "bettering the breeds," in practice, what they consider "better" focuses almost exclusively on pure cosmetic physical appearance, not with more fundamental health and soundness. Sure, if you ask these people point blank, are they only concerned about cosmetics, they will answer "oh no, we care just as much about health." But, if you don't corner them with a question like this that basically gives them no choice but to pay lip service to health, and instead you just sit back and listen to a typical, unprompted conversation among people in this circle, 95-100% of their conversations focus on cosmetics - which dog has the best color, which dog's nose is crooked, which face has finer features, which eyes are nice and round, etc. It's pretty amusing listening to one of these conversations, but amusement aside, this infatuation with cosmetics leads to the dire results of many breeds.

These arbitrary physical preferences are nullifying a lot of simple, common sense solutions to the problems caused by gene pool reduction and genetic bottlenecks. In the poodle world, the fact that inter-variety breeding is significantly frown upon, and even forbidden by some organizations (e.g. the New Zealand Kennel Club), is a prime example of this. How arbitrary is it that, as a result of poodle market forces, those who are 10 inches or less and those who are 22 inches or more are prized much more significantly than those in between? Standard poodles are supposed to be anything above 15 inches (in the US), but how come judges never pick a 15.5-inch standard over a 24-inch standard? 

Imagine in the human world - we arbitrarily decide that we heavily prefer two groups of people: those over 7 feet, and those under 5 feet, and we really don't care for those in between. Then, we further say we're gonna divide humans into 3 varieties - those from 5-6 feet (toys), those from 6-7 feet (mini), and those 7+ (standard). And we decide, just because we feel like it, that we don't like toy people mating with mini people, and we don't like mini people mating with standard people - in other words, someone who's 5-11 should not have children with someone who's 6-1, and in fact, doing so will get you completely kicked out of certain countries (New Zealand).

And, this is nowhere near the worst - poodles are actually a fairly healthy, long-lived breed, especially the small varieties. Imagine the flat-nose dogs, and humanize it - let's say one human society decides to heavily value people whose noses are so flat that they can barely breathe and are wheezing as they take a simple stroll down the street... 

How "healthy" do you think the resulting human society will look like? 

Kevin


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> It would be interesting to see if there are any groups out there doing some serious research on saving our purebred dogs...their future, because without some planning and serious work, I'm afraid they're on the downhill slide. More and more breeding of the same dogs. A fantastic dog is bred a kazillion times, then down the road some defect or gene screw up is discovered and all the offspring are passing it on...


I too became concerned that the same top studs were being bred over and over and over again, limiting the gene pool and causing this problem: 




> Population Bottleneck
> 
> A population bottleneck is an event that drastically reduces the size of a population. The bottleneck may be caused by various events, such as an environmental disaster, the hunting of a species to the point of extinction, or habitat destruction that results in the deaths of organisms. The population bottleneck produces a decrease in the gene pool of the population because many alleles, or gene variants, that were present in the original population are lost. Due to the event, the remaining population has a very low level of genetic diversity, which means that the population as a whole has few genetic characteristics.
> 
> Following a population bottleneck, the remaining population faces a higher level of genetic drift, which describes random fluctuations in the presence of alleles in a population. In small populations, infrequently occurring alleles face a greater chance of being lost, which can further decrease the gene pool. Due to the loss of genetic variation, the new population can become genetically distinct from the original population, which has led to the hypothesis that population bottlenecks can lead to the evolution of new species.



This is why I bred my toy poodle Bella to a 6 y/o stud whose champion parents are Canadian on one side and German-Russian on the other, and like Bella, have many champs in the pedigree. They have two common ancestors five generations away, which should maintain "type", while the numerous unrelated ancestors will lend to diversity and a near zero COI in the puppies. 

Bella's side and the stud are clear for all testable genetic poodle conditions, and both have normal/good patellas. I planned for the pups (she's currently pregnant) to have as much genetic diversity as possible. 

There are groups doing serous research. Readings and moderately advanced video that were helpful to me:

1. The Canine Diversity Project

2. BetterBred, Type and Diversity: Our Twin Concerns article (you need to open a free account and login to read.)

3. And this video by Dr. Zurbrug of BetterBred:


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I ran across this article yesterday. 

https://breedingbetterdogs.com/article/maintaining-and-improving-breeds

It seems to touch on some of the points Kevin brought up.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

It's simple. It's something I've always believed in, not only with this, but with most everything in life. And they need to get back to it and prioritize _this_ with breeding dogs: 

*FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION*. Basic. Simple. It needs to always be that way.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> * FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION*. Basic. Simple. It needs to always be that way.



Evolution through natural selection agrees. And artificial selection should not be any different.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Evolution through natural selection agrees. And artificial selection should not be any different.



Yep, the fittest survive. Humans need to back off and stop so much meddling if they can't get the_ correct_ priorities straight.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Of course, then I might not have my Maurice. lol. Okay, the fittest survive within the groups. I'll go with that.:act-up:


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## barbiespoodle (Apr 25, 2010)

I'm going to have to show this thread to my husband. We have had a 30 year argument about breeding standard poodles, he wants it, I do not.

I worked many years for small and large breeders. I have pulled more puppies into the world than I care to remember and omg do I ever miss raising puppies. It didn't matter how many litters there were at any given time, everyone of those pups was precious to me and I spent most of my off hours time socializing and training puppies and loved every minute of it. You wouldn't believe how many well known show dogs I personally trained for the ring. And more than one puppy was sold to a local or national celebrity because I always made sure the pups were well socialized. 

So why do I refuse to have a litter? After all, I know about genetics, breed standard, heath issues, all that is required to be a responsible breeder.

Because I also always have at least one pound adoptee, through the years they have been mixed and pure breeds and everyone special and loved. I just don't want to bring more puppies into the world when there are too many wonderful dogs that are going to be put down because there are not enough homes. 

I will never criticize a responsible breeder, I'm a snob in that I always have to have a spoo and I need a breeder to make that happen. I just want to get rid of the backyard breeder and puppy mills who think that just because their dog is pure bred they can make money off of a litter. Puppies don't make money if it's done right. And that is the point I have been trying to get across to my husband.

Side note, kittens. I'm a kittenaholic, I adore kittens as much as I adore puppies. I would always have a kitten if possible and right now I'm in the middle of major kitten lust, maybe because Roland is now 17 months old and not my little puppy anymore. But I also have 2 old house cats, Salem is about 15 years old and Sissy a couple years younger, both dumped off strays as kittens. I think Salem was loss when his feral mother dropped him while moving the litter, he took a long time to tame and he couldn't have been more than 4 weeks old when my husband found him. Plus there is Kitty, a feral female that hangs out with my old gander in the barn. I live trapped her and the vet had to give her a shot through the live trap in order to put her to sleep to spay her, she really is feral, 9 years later and I still can't get near her, I mean I see her from a far distance if I'm out feeding the old gander, but she still is a part of my life and I wouldn't get rid of her for the world. Anyhow, I won't get a kitten until one of the old housecats is gone and I hope I'm right in saying, that won't be for a while even if Salem is a butt ugly cat, lol.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Good post Barbiespoodle. You made some good points. It is my hope that your hubby and more of the population sees why it's so important to follow the available research and pre-cautionary guidelines, the science that's available to try to make our dog breeds healthier. We don't need more dogs. We need more _healthy_ dogs free of pain and problems.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Vita said:


> I too became concerned that the same top studs were being bred over and over and over again, limiting the gene pool and causing this problem:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Vita, thanks for this post. It makes me glad. :amen:

I'm really liking all the posts here...some great links and terrific thinking.:alberteinstein:


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## Ghost (Feb 7, 2019)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> > Ghost! Congrats on getting your braces off. What a wonderful feeling. I remember that when I was about 20 or so.
> >
> > We have another thing in common. I always had aquariums since I was a kid and up until about 2010. I bred fancy guppies which had their own tank and any other fish that just happened to breed in my community tank...the live bearers. I'd use surface plants and fed them often just a little so they wouldn't eat the babies. Or sometimes I used a breeding trap. They were for my own use...didn't sell them. But I never knew anything special about being responsible with breeding fresh water tropical fish. I just let them live and do their thing. I remember cleaning my aquariums every Saturday and feeding them frozen brine shrimp sometimes. Do you still have aquariums? What kind of fish do you have? Fresh water or salt water? I've gotten so I don't want as much to take care of so I'll just stick with my dogs. But you are young and have lots of time and energy no doubt to keep it up. Good luck.
> >
> ...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

This thread disappeared in the time I was not around to read. And I forgot till just now. I enjoyed reading your _post Ghost._ I think a salt water aquarium would be so amazing. That's something I've never done. So when you get your new house (how exciting that you're hunting) you can do that. I wouldn't know the first thing about a salt water aquarium, having only done fresh water. They are so beautiful...those brilliantly colored fish. So, that's a really neat hobby.

I agree with the points you made about rescue and Labradoodles. The thing is though, so many people talk about them as though they all have poor temperaments. I've met several and they were all really nice dogs. The people loved them and had no problems with behavior or their coats. So, I don't know. I suppose there is a mix, just like with any other type of dog...some great, some not. Some owners are good with dogs, some not. That can influence behavior big time. So who knows? I don't agree with breeding them unless someone is trying to create a new breed...a fixed breed, which I think there is in Australia...some decent breeding going on in one situation. But all these people jumping on the band wagon, breeding with very little proper science behind it is a shame. 

I laughed out loud when I read how you took Lilah to the optometrist. What a kick. Austin would be my kind of town if I moved to Texas. haha. :amen:


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

*A little off topic--do you know what sex my betta is?*

"Isla" was sold to me as a veiltail female betta, but I'm just curious because her fins are so long. Her ventral fins are long, but they are not thick like most males. She flares. No bubble nests. What do the fish experts think? Or should I ask on a betta forum?


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## Dina (Jan 24, 2016)

zooeysmom said:


> "Isla" was sold to me as a veiltail female betta, but I'm just curious because her fins are so long. Her ventral fins are long, but they are not thick like most males. She flares. No bubble nests. What do the fish experts think? Or should I ask on a betta forum?


Try this link? I say female but not 100% sure... 

https://www.thesprucepets.com/how-to-determine-betta-gender-1380784


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks, Dina! I'm still leaning toward female too. She's definitely more chunky/wide than most males.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

*The Hidden Dark Side of this Thread*

I really enjoyed my 52 Weeks of Sachii & Bella thread until Dechi, Zoeysmom & company mis-used it to promote their radical beliefs of who should and shouldn't be qualified to breed their poodle, and whether or not a particular poodle was worthy of being bred. 

*The Backstory*

The backstory is that earlier Zoeysmom started a thread, "I wish PF had a mission statement like this". She did this after I confirmed here that Bella is pregnant and refused to tell her who is Sachii's breeder or my plans. She made up a huge lie that PF needed this based on her being upset over members who were "backyard breeders", and Dechi joined in saying that members who didn't meet the standards of should be censored from sharing their experience. Note that the only member who had announced having puppies other than Arreau was me. 

I challenged this along with a few others. That thread got very heated and was pulled by one of the monitors. They couldn't achieve with a Missions Statement proposal what they attempted by using deceptions to stab me in the back. and then attacked this thread head on, leaving it a nuclear wasteland. 

It all came down to their _opinions_. Not facts, just opinions. After the smoke cleared, Poodlebeguiled began a thread titled "Ethical and Responsible Breeding Discussion". This is where their opinions belonged, not on my 52 Weeks of Sachii & Bela thread. 

Their public. surface conclusions that Bella is not worthy of breeding comes from my not having her titled as 'proof' she shouldn't be bred, along with my not being a well-known breeder. It fell on deaf ears that she's health tested clear of all testable genetic diseases, has an awesome pedigree, and so does her stud. 

Catherine had a lot of animosity toward me going back a year b/c we differ in opinions, and her followers jumped on her bandwagon of disrespecting me. Read her initial bit of nastiness on this thread here and here. Mind you, this was _before_ I had mated Bella. Why she has obsessed over my dog's fertility is beyond me, but that mindset was contagious among a few others already mentioned. 


*Trying To Start A New Thread*

I began a new thread, The 52 Weeks Journey Blog of Bella & Sachii. I began it with a light-hearted sci-fi story of my poodles. 

However, it's clear the damage had been done, yet that I'm the one left radioactive: few members have been willing to leave thumbs up and only one left a comment. Friends and friendly members who were enjoying my thread have not wanted to be caught in the crossfire of their attacks nor be bullied thru social medias to defriend anyone who disagrees with them.

Meanwhile these extremists continue with impunity like they're the good guys and have had no consequences for their destructive behavior and excluding the voices as much as they can of those who differ with them. 


*The Poodle Eugenics Movement*

Basically, we're looking at a tiny group of people who are in process of hijacking PF. They espouse *Poodle Eugenics* and have been trying to set this as the gold standard of poodle reproduction. 

What is Eugenics? Throughout history, and especially during the Hitler era, it was used to sterilize all except people who have their idea of the most desirable perceived genes and features. 

In purebred dogs, you end up with one show dog who is deemed as the top percent who fathers dozens of litters. This leads to a drop in genetic diversity, and something called a Population Bottleneck. 



> A population bottleneck is an event that drastically reduces the size of a population. The bottleneck may be caused by various events, such as an environmental disaster, the hunting of a species to the point of extinction, or habitat destruction that results in the deaths of organisms. The population bottleneck produces a decrease in the gene pool of the population because many alleles, or gene variants, that were present in the original population are lost. Due to the event, the remaining population has a very low level of genetic diversity, which means that the population as a whole has few genetic characteristics.
> 
> Following a population bottleneck, the remaining population faces a higher level of genetic drift, which describes random fluctuations in the presence of alleles in a population. In small populations, infrequently occurring alleles face a greater chance of being lost, which can further decrease the gene pool. Due to the loss of genetic variation, the new population can become genetically distinct from the original population, which has led to the hypothesis that population bottlenecks can lead to the evolution of new species.



*Caveat Emptor*

So beware of fully buying into conversations like the ones on this thread. On it's face, the information looks reasonable - much of it is - but it is a mask for a misguided agenda that only top percent of poodles should be bred, that well informed hobby breeders aren't needed, and that only top breeders have any business having puppies. 

In short, they cast a much too narrow net on poodles who should be bred and those who should breed them.

You should ask yourself who benefits most from this. It's not the poodles; many of the nicest puppies by top breeders with champion parents get spayed or neutered and genetic diversity is seriously restricted. 

One reason is top breeders insist on limited registration and no breed contracts on the puppies to keep out the competition in the show ring. 

Or they'll sell it to you with unlimited registration, but they are co-owners and the contract says you can't breed your paid-for-poodle unless it makes championship. You foot the bill for training, handling, and showing, but they get half of the credit for it's winning. Some won't even let you breed it without their permission if it's a male because this would interfere with them profiting from their own stud dogs. And so on. Caveat emptor.

This has limited the poodle population and why most people have to go state-hopping to find a well-bred, genetically health tested clear poodle. The public gets tired of searching, finds a poodle pup or a designer poodle-mix in the newspaper or a pet shop which is far less likely to have had genetic health testing.

So that's my opinion, along with facts about the damage regarding lowered diversity and bottlenecks that is being done here. Heaven knows how many untold members have abandoned PF from the pushy, intrusive, rigid agenda tactics. 

It's likely to make the very people angry who didn't care about blowing up my very personal and fun 52 Weeks of Sachii & Bella thread and making me angry when they attacked me in two different threads to undermine my breeding my little awesome poodle.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Vita - I see you and others continue to bring this same issue up, over and over. Most forums do not allow a topic to be brought up again once it has been closed. Is that not the case here?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

tammyw said:


> Vita - I see you and others continue to bring this same issue up, over and over. Most forums do not allow a topic to be brought up again once it has been closed. Is that not the case here?



tammyw I think that topics do come up more than once since after having had a discussion that disappeared people who have the same thing to talk about (perhaps who are new) tend to start a new thread and then there is new discussion. For example we once again recently have had a new discussion about pit bulls. It certainly isn't the first and it won't be the last.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

I’m really more talking about calling out other members time and time again over the same issue. It gets tiresome!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

possibly it happens because people insist on trying to impose their views over and over? ethical and responsible breeding has been done to death here, actually, if you read the old posts, though i do think vita's take on poodle eugenics is a newer twist. and i don't know how many times poodlebeguiled has posted that vulgar photo of the guy with his butt bared to try to shut me up. it's best to just ignore if you are not interested or don't want to engage. pf gives you the ability to do that. go to your user profile and you will find the right buttons to push to enable ignoring people.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Moderators cannot be put on ignore.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

patk said:


> possibly it happens because people insist on trying to impose their views over and over? ethical and responsible breeding has been done to death here, actually, if you read the old posts, though i do think vita's take on poodle eugenics is a newer twist. and i don't know how many times poodlebeguiled has posted that vulgar photo of the guy with his butt bared to try to shut me up. it's best to just ignore if you are not interested or don't want to engage. pf gives you the ability to do that. go to your user profile and you will find the right buttons to push to enable ignoring people.


Ok so that’s good to know about being able to ignore people, so thank you!

People should be able to express their opinions. But I KEEP seeing Vita blast the same members over and over and over and basically saying the same thing time and again. It’s like beating a dead horse. At some point, someone has got to step up and say “she’s dead already, leave her alone!” I just can’t be the only one who thinks that it’s time to move on!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i made the comment about that bare butt photo to give you a clue about the fact that there are several people here who regularly blast others they don't agree with by posting vulgar photos. the one directed at me that was pulled by the mods was the swatter squashing a bug in response to a comment i made. there are several forums i participate in where that would be considered a threat. maybe the mods at pf came to the same conclusion and that's why they pulled it? best to put people on ignore if they aggravate you to that point. there are lots of posts/discussions you can then participate in without the aggravation.
oh i just noticed the comment about not being able to put mods on ignore. well it's still possible to just skip over a post when you see who the author is. that shows up immediately when you see a post. come to think of it, there are a number of posts chief mod plum has made that people ignore all the time. :behindsofa:


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

tammyw said:


> Vita - I see you and others continue to bring this same issue up, over and over. Most forums do not allow a topic to be brought up again once it has been closed. Is that not the case here?


No it's not. This thread was created in response to several here ramming down my throat their views of "Ethical and Responsible Breeding" on my thread. So now the topic has been exported here. 

I have views on this topic too, and I also think that what was done to me was not ethical, nor from my point of view, neither is their promotion of Poodle Eugenics by any means necessary. My points about how the narrow net they cast for "the best" poodles only to breed by "the best" only breeders fuels the decreased genetic diversity of the breed. 

And oh how they'd like to have it swept under the rug and forgotten so they continue with their misguided ideology.

Feel free to ignore or report. You and those with radical views might, but other members here won't. That's good; the public has been mis-educated and manipulated enough on PF by those with extreme opinions, resulting in great poodles being spayed which has diminished the availability of well-bred poodles.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

tammyw said:


> People should be able to express their opinions. But I KEEP seeing Vita blast the same members over and over and over and basically saying the same thing time and again. It’s like beating a dead horse. At some point, someone has got to step up and say “she’s dead already, leave her alone!” I just can’t be the only one who thinks that it’s time to move on!


That's a lie. The only threads I "blasted" others was on ZM's sneaky "missions statement" thread with the ulterior motive of censoring my ability to talk about my experience with my dog's pregnancy. That thread was pulled. And on my own 52 Weeks Sachii & Bella thread which she and Dechi invaded and trashed, and side fights broke out between other members. As I see it, they couldn't accomplish getting me censored of simply talking about my pregnant poodle, so they became unspeakably aggressive in promoting their agenda.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

So three threads at least including this one?


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Vita, you seem to be jumping to a conclusion based on speculation, not facts. I haven't seen anyone promote "poodle eugenics." There are often discussions about promoting genetic diversity in the breed. 

"Unspeakably aggressive?" ROFL! You called me a racist, a witch, etc. and I have never spoken to you in such a way or called you names. I just don't agree with breeding your dogs because they're not show/breeding quality. That is my opinion and I'm entitled to it. But I have never "trashed" you the way you have me.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

My criteria for a responsible breeder is fully health tested and structurally sound parents, minimize frequency of litters for better care of puppies, puppies raised in the home with modern methods ( such as Puppy Culture), prefer a breeder that places puppies based on their personalities rather than a strict pick order.

My co-own contract allows me to breed my boy, it also allows either me or the breeder to reject bitches picked by the other. I have no desire to be involved in breeding — I simply don’t know enough.

Since owning my current dog, I’ve looked at a lot of pedigrees. Most of them have some untitled dogs in them. There are many more responsible breeders (by my criteria) than are ever mentioned on PF. There are many Midwest breeders that I would feel comfortable taking a puppy from. These aren’t breeders that I identified in my original poodle search, but have come to know through attending shows with my breeder.

I revisited this thread to post an article from Better Bred and didn’t expect the controversy. I rarely read the “other topics” threads since coming across a vitriolic political topic. There are places that I can go for negativity. That’s not why I read the Poodle Forum.

Here’s the link:
https://www.betterbred.com/2019/04/02/is-diversity-testing-enough/


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I believe Lily CD was successful in getting the Mod to remove a few offensive comments by the same person about Javelin. Vita should have that right also. I don’t believe in stepping on other people’s joy about their dogs. You want to breed a health tested, parti, UKC champ? I’m in. A breeding with a performance champ rather than a conformation Ch, actually makes sense to me. I’m in. A high volume breeder, censured by the AKC, with somehow, really nice dogs and owners. I will not shame them away. Our mission is to be a welcoming community of the rainbow of poodles, not the judge fest. Friend test.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

excellent points. i think some of what is going on is a clash of cultures. there are some who believe there is only one way to do things and others questioning those ways. 

i was struck by a comment, for example, claiming a gay tail was disquaifying for poodle breeding. poodles' tails are docked to meet the akc standard, which rejects 'gay' tails. maybe because at one time poodles were used as water retrievers and their tails were deemed to interfere? though i notice portuguese water dogs keep their tails and many field hunting dogs keep their feathered tails. none of which answers the question as to whether a docked tail makes a healthier dog, let alone the question of whether it is ethical to chop off dogs' tails so they conform to some human standard. i don't pretend to know, but i have suspicions.

akc also does not accept multi-colored poodles in the conformation ring. has a correlation been shown between color and conformation and/or health? will the dogs be healthier if they are not multi-colored? i have not really seen anyone make that claim.

when people talk about breeding to a standard, what's the purpose? healthier, better tempered dogs or??? and at what point is ??? better than cross or doodle breeding? 

sounds like $64k question time to me.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Mfmst said:


> I believe Lily CD was successful in getting the Mod to remove a few offensive comments by the same person about Javelin. Vita should have that right also. I don’t believe in stepping on other people’s joy about their dogs. You want to breed a health tested, parti, UKC champ? I’m in. A breeding with a performance champ rather than a conformation Ch, actually makes sense to me. I’m in. *A high volume breeder, censured by the AKC*, with somehow, really nice dogs and owners. I will not shame them away. Our mission is to be a welcoming community of the rainbow of poodles, not the judge fest. Friend test.


OMG, what a euphemism! Try* kennel suspended by the AKC for animal cruelty*. No, I'll never support anyone's decision to _willingly_ support that kind of operation. 

And btw, everyone in this group has their own mission statement in this group. Yours is certainly not the same as mine.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

zooeysmom said:


> Vita, you seem to be jumping to a conclusion based on speculation, not facts. I haven't seen anyone promote "poodle eugenics." There are often discussions about promoting genetic diversity in the breed.
> 
> "Unspeakably aggressive?" ROFL! You called me a racist, a witch, etc. and I have never spoken to you in such a way or called you names. I just don't agree with breeding your dogs because they're not show/breeding quality. That is my opinion and I'm entitled to it. But I have never "trashed" you the way you have me.


More lies, and I didn't call you a racist, but after you _continued to harass me_ I did ask you to get on your broom, fly away, and take your friends with you. There is nothing to "ROFL" about what you did on my thread or your attempt to censor me on your sneaky Missions Statement thread that would only affect me, so knock it off with the "who me?" innocent act. I notice you have never once answered to the lie you stated on the Missions that you were upset about byb members here, and used that lie to justify PF having a 'special mission' including censorship. There are no byb members here. 

Reading comprehension is fundamental, so review that thread that you burned to ground with the help of Dechi. And how would anyone here feel if guests came to their home and set up their soapboxes to bad mouth you and wreck your party? 

And how the heck would you and your side kicks assume my dog isn't breeding quality? She comes from great stock shown by great handlers, and has the structure, temperament, and health test clearances. But nooo, you and your few pals made up your mind long ago to undermine me - and by default, push a Poodle Eugenics model that is bad for the breed. 

Frankly those of you involved should apologize to me for your abusive behavior, and then stop promoting massive sterilization of 95 to 99% of the poodles out there. I won't hold my breath waiting for either.

*******​
Scooterscout and some others: I apologize if summarizing how all this came about upsets some who would like PF to be a quiet, friendly place. Me too, that's all I ever wanted but was attacked. I also have my own ideas and sometimes reach different conclusions than the small vocal minority here who would prefer I left PF. Some discussions need to be had lest the extremists at one end or the other take charge like PETA has been trying to do.

I too have written about BetterBred more than once, shown videos, and wrote this extensive article back in Oct 2018, "Genetic Conditions - OFA Blue Book: What to Know In Choosing A Puppy or Breeding". It's very informative for buyers or breeders alike.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Vita, where is all this anger coming from? If someone said my dog wasn't show quality (which they have and I agree with), I wouldn't go off on a name-calling ranting mission.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Nice ploy, ZM, now lying on me as a smoke screen for your own lies and deceptive tactics.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Mfmst said:


> I believe Lily CD was successful in getting the Mod to remove a few offensive comments by the same person about Javelin. Vita should have that right also. I don’t believe in stepping on other people’s joy about their dogs. You want to breed a health tested, parti, UKC champ? I’m in. A breeding with a performance champ rather than a conformation Ch, actually makes sense to me. I’m in. A high volume breeder, censured by the AKC, with somehow, really nice dogs and owners. I will not shame them away. Our mission is to be a welcoming community of the rainbow of poodles, not the judge fest. Friend test.


Mfmst, I have to give you more than a thumbs up for that comment. It reflects how I and many others here feel about our poodles, and kind people do not go around stepping on other people's joy about their dogs.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

patk said:


> i was struck by a comment, for example, claiming a gay tail was disquaifying for poodle breeding. poodles' tails are docked to meet the akc standard, which rejects 'gay' tails.


I'm sorry but if you're going to say such things about my post then please don't twist it to suit your own gain.

The comment was made based on a picture that was posted that was supposed to prove that the dog looked show/breeding quality. But the dog had such overgrown hair that the only thing that you could judge from that picture was it's tail, which was, in fact, gay. A gay tail IS against the standard. So the *only* thing that one could discern from the picture that was posted to prove the dog looked show/breeding quality was something that is incorrect for a poodle. So that picture was not a good example to choose to try to prove a dog looked show/breeding quality. So if the person truly had wanted to post a picture to prove that the dog did look show/breeding quality they would need to post a picture that actually showed what good qualities the dog actually had.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

zooeysmom said:


> If someone said my dog wasn't show quality (which they have and I agree with)...


That’s a very interesting subject. There is a general misconception about what a show dog is. 

Many people think that if you buy a dog from a breeder who has show winners in their lines, or even from a show breeder, you automatically get a show dog. It’s not the case : even if both your dog’s parents have their championship, it doesn’t mean your puppy has what it takes to become a champion.

I’d be interested to know what percentage of puppies from selected breedings from show lines actually turn out to be show dogs. I suspect it’s less than 10%. Maybe even 5%.

Merlin’s dad was Top 5 in Canada for a specific year and Merlin wouldn’t cut it. That’s the case for most puppies. Only a few selected ones make it, and they’re always the result of a carefully selected breeding.

We once had a thread on PF about member’s poodles and what their faults were. People were trying to guess and it was very interesting and fun. I think there is probably less than 1% of the members on PF who have show dogs. 

And you know what ? It really doesn’t matter at all, because show dogs don’t make better pets than any other «*ordinary*» pet dog that was well socialized and cared for. Being a show dog doesn’t mean anything other than this particular dog fulfills the requirements written in the standard of its breed. And that if we want to keep the breed looking the way it does, with the temperament it was bred to have, this dog is a good candidate to reproduce. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Mysticrealm said:


> I'm sorry but if you're going to say such things about my post then please don't twist it to suit your own gain.
> 
> The comment was made based on a picture that was posted that was supposed to prove that the dog looked show/breeding quality. But the dog had such overgrown hair that the only thing that you could judge from that picture was it's tail, which was, in fact, gay. A gay tail IS against the standard. So the *only* thing that one could discern from the picture that was posted to prove the dog looked show/breeding quality was something that is incorrect for a poodle. So that picture was not a good example to choose to try to prove a dog looked show/breeding quality. So if the person truly had wanted to post a picture to prove that the dog did look show/breeding quality they would need to post a picture that actually showed what good qualities the dog actually had.



here's your post:

Mysticrealm 02-23-2019 05:45 PM
"What about the photo you just posted is supposed to make us think she's show/breeding quality. All I see is a a photo of an overgrown puppy where you can see nothing of it's structure except a gay tail. If you can't tell that that photo in no way can back up your claim of her being show/breeding quality then you probably aren't the best judge of show/breedingquality. But again, I'm gonna stop responding to your posts since I know you won't listen." 

and with elllipses here's some of the rest "...overgrown, as in overgrown coat completely making it impossible to see her structure (gosh almighty) other than the gay tail which is incorrect for poodles...."

show and breeding quality, including a gay tail, are not necessarily the same thing, but you singled out the gay tail as indicating bella was neither, since you said you couldn't see any other part of the dog's structure, but you apparently knew a gay tail was 'incorrect' for poodles. as i said earlier, poodle tails are often docked and not everybody goes by the akc standard. dechi nailed it when she said top show dogs do not necessarily produce 'champion' quality get. and good breeders do introduce non-champion dogs to strengthen their lines when they find a quality they think matters.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

patk said:


> here's your post:
> 
> Mysticrealm 02-23-2019 05:45 PM
> "What about the photo you just posted is supposed to make us think she's show/breeding quality. All I see is a a photo of an overgrown puppy where you can see nothing of it's structure except a gay tail. If you can't tell that that photo in no way can back up your claim of her being show/breeding quality then you probably aren't the best judge of show/breedingquality. But again, I'm gonna stop responding to your posts since I know you won't listen."
> ...


you quoting me just proved again what I was saying. That the picture showed only the gay tail (which of course I knew was incorrect for poodles. I show poodle. And docked tailed poodles can still have gay tails so I'm not sure why you keep mentioning that poodle tails are often docked?)
Like I SAID posting that picture shows that the person does not understand how to tell when an animal is show/breeding quality as you could not see any of the dog's structure (except the gay tail, which is not correct for poodles I don't believe in any poodle standard).
Is a gay tail the 'telling tale' of what is breeding/show quality or not? No. And I never ONCE said it was. 
Like my post, that you quoted, said I was commenting on the choice of picture that was posted to prove the dog 'looked' show/breeding quality when it in no proved that point in any way shape or form because you could not see the dog at all (except it's tail) through it's over grown coat


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i'll let people judge for themselves what they think you were getting at. though i think people can figure out that when you have a breed where tails are docked for showing, there is no requirement that a dam or sire be docked before breeding. lamarck does not rule in such cases.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

patk said:


> i'll let people judge for themselves what they think you were getting at. though i think people can figure out that when you have a breed where tails are docked for showing, there is no requirement that a dam or sire be docked before breeding. lamarck does not rule in such cases.


They can judge all they want. I know exactly where I was going with that.
What in the world do you mean by this "though i think people can figure out that when you have a breed where tails are docked for showing, there is no requirement that a dam or sire be docked before breeding."
I don't give a flying poop if a dog is docked before breeding? I mean, overseas docking isn't even allowed and yet they have some beautiful well built poodles that we breed to here in North America. How in the world is that even part of this conversation? Do you not understand what a gay tail is?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

you really need to get over yourself. you have a nice dog. you haven't proven you can breed nice dogs. ?*♂


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

You're accusing me of something that I have no idea what in the world you're accusing my of so I feel it's well within my rights to questions you on that.
What does a dog being docked or not docked have to do with breeding or with a gay tail?


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Good morning, everyone. 

First I'll add about my anecdotal experience about gay tails. Bella had one as a puppy, but outgrew it. I have no idea if that's the case for some, most or all toy poodles. Currently, my puppy Sachii has a very gay tail, so gay that I'll be surprised if he ever decides to hold it differently.

Next, on to Dechi's comment. 



Dechi said:


> That’s a very interesting subject. There is a general misconception about what a show dog is.
> 
> Many people think that if you buy a dog from a breeder who has show winners in their lines, or even from a show breeder, you automatically get a show dog. It’s not the case : even if both your dog’s parents have their championship, it doesn’t mean your puppy has what it takes to become a champion.
> 
> ...



Dechi, I agree with most of what you said, and you said it well. By putting together two champion parents we have slightly better odds of getting the best of the breed. However, I differ in one area: there's more to inheritance than meets the eye. 

Scooterscout99 hit on this, here's an excerpt from his post on this thread: 



scooterscout99 said:


> ... Since owning my current dog, I’ve looked at a lot of pedigrees. Most of them have some untitled dogs in them. There are many more responsible breeders (by my criteria) than are ever mentioned on PF. There are many Midwest breeders that I would feel comfortable taking a puppy from. These aren’t breeders that I identified in my original poodle search, but have come to know through attending shows with my breeder...


This was also my conclusion when out of fascination and curiosity, I began researching Bella's pedigree and then random others a year ago. It's like this. Puppy inheritance of certain physical & health features and innate personality can come from an uncle, aunt or grandparent, just like with people. 

In human terms, how many times have we seen two parents who are ordinary in attractiveness or intelligence yet have an incredibly beautiful or brilliant child? A study of the family tree shows there are members sprinkled in it that have those qualities. The parents didn't, but one or more of their kids do. Or vice versa.

In dogs, if a parent with slight visual flaws or had never been titled is knocked out of the breeding game, then those desirable genes (that humans want) are knocked out too, and lowering genetic diversity in the process. 

Thus, in the human pursuit to get the best of the best by casting _a narrow net_ in which poodles should be bred, we cheat ourselves as well as the poodle population by lowering the available gene pool and diversity. This can (but not always, this is where BetterBred testing comes in) result with pups with a higher COI (Coefficient of Breeding) and/or more prone to detrimental health conditions.

​
One toy poodle that sticks in my memory was Chanda Leah, Guinness Book of World Record Holder of the World's Smartest Dog. That little poodle was brilliant and she lived to be 12-1/2 years old. She may or may not have made a champion in the show ring, but her genes for exceptional genius (and temperament) would have been an asset in a _long term_ breeding program where the strategy and goal were further increase brilliance combined with the show dog look / visual standards of the breed.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

some poodles belonging to poodles de grenier, well-known for its long-running participation in the poodle diversity project:


Farleigh de Grenier - Poodles de Grenier


Emmeline de Grenier - Poodles de Grenier


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