# You know what amazes me?



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

People with websites that offer show contracts when they don't have one single finished champion in their breeding program. How can they even evaluate what a show quality puppy would look like at 7-8 weeks if they've never finished one? Even if they sent a dog out with a handler at least they'd have someone available to go over the litter and evaluate puppies. Not to mention these people are typically asking the same price for a puppy that breeders that have finished and tested their dogs are asking. I guess some people think it's just enough to have health tested your dog to offer show quality puppies to unsuspecting buyers.:fish:


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## dbrazzil (Nov 10, 2009)

I haven't been showing that long and I have discovered how competitive this sport really is and expensive. These people are probably trying to support their breeding program by offering to show at a discounted fee if you buy a puppy from them. This is just my theory. I agree with you, I don't understand how these people can think they can sell their puppies for show quality if they don't show and know what a show quality really is.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

There are many many uneducated people out there who just assume that they can put any two dogs together and produce a show puppy. Or, they don't really know or care about that and just advertise them as such. I have seen a couple *show* quality purchased puppies whose tails were bobbed as short as a cocker. Unsuspecting buyers have no clue until it is too late. A lot of pets out there have very short tails and if they haven't really been observing the show dogs, they assume the short tail is correct. It is one of the biggest red flags!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Just another point of view. This may get long winded, so please forgive me if it does...

I have been involved with this breed for over 47 years. I helped my Mom and her sometimes breeding partner, Susan Fraser of Bibelot Poodles assess litters for as long as I can remember. We had many champs in our home and in my Mom's breeding program while I grew up.

I also have a condition called Agoraphobia, which literally translates to "fear of the marketplace". I have no champions in my breeding program. Part of this is because I lost my heart for the sport toward the end of my mother's years in it, because it had become political and wretched. Only dogs shown by professional handlers were being placed, even when there were many breeder/owner/handled dogs that were far superior in many cases. Then came the entire cheating issue, with people dying their dogs, putting extensions in their top knots, dying their noses. I find these practices disgusting, and it turned me off even more. Then there is the agoraphobia issue which has made it impossible to show my own dogs. Would I pay a handler¨...hmm...with the record reds have and the colour bias against Poodles of colour at dog shows, no. I am not going to end up mortgaging my home to title one of my dogs with the prejudices amongst a lot of judges against Poodles of colour. As my agoraphobia continues to improve, I can definately see a time when I will try once again. I will be particularly inclined toward outdoor shows, because my condition is always more managable in the outdoors. I would not ship one of my girls to be bred because of the horrible things that COULD happen, so I certainly would not send one of my girls off to a handler I barely know and expect them to be able to look after her like I would or like her co-owner or foster family could.

There was, in the past few months, a big news story about a handler who arrived home late from a dog show, decided that it would be better to wait until morning to remove the dogs from her vehicle, and every one of the show dogs in her charge died overnight in her van as a result. THAT is the type of stuff that can happen when you trust someone else with your dogs. Annette Shepherd at Rebelstar Poodles has an entire section on her web site about her experience when sending one of her dogs to a well known, professional handler to be conditioned and shown. THAT is the kind of stuff that can happen when you trust someone else with your dogs. So, my dogs will either be handled by me, or they will not be shown. And until my condition reaches a point where this is entirely possible, my dogs wont be shown. BUT, can I assess a show dog... Oh you can count on that. After so many years involved with Standard Poodles, I can pick an excellent quality dog with a marvelous top line, refined head, excellent angulation, good pigment, nice short back, tight feet, good bite, fantastic movement, good ear set, remarkable colour over a lovely but run of the mill puppy any day.

People really ought to stop judging others until they have walked a mile in their shoes. You have no idea how frustrating it is for me to be producing the quality of puppies I have been producing, and not be bale to show them. You have no idea how frustrating it is for me to be breeding a relatively new colour and see the colour bias that is taking place and clearly inferior white or black dogs being placed over some off the stunning silvers, apricots, browns and reds. And you have no idea how furstrating it is to remember when almost every dog was owner-handled, and there was not blatant cheating in the ring, to nearly every dog shown being presented by a professional handler, and the cheating to be there for all the world to see.

You will see Arreau champions one day soon. One of the last litter is now at Strathglen Poodles, and will be shown beginning next spring. My hope is for a pup from our 2011 litter that knocks everyones socks off, and this keeps me fighting against the agoraphobia so I can show this pup myself.

Not everyones story is cut and dried, and people should maybe consider what may be going on behind the scenes before they judge another.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

:rockon::tee::tee:
Right on Arreau ! That my dear was *VERY* well said !!!
Some folks have been in dogs for years, have *been there* and done that and truly do know a nice dog when they see one....Some breeders have actually done some judging of their own and do know correct movement when they see it  
So lets take the case of Annie Rodgers Clark .. HMMM Do you think at her age she was showing? But she was breeding right? And trust me having shown to her she *DID* know conformation ...... So.. Me thinks that this question would not apply in every case for sure....GET TO KNOW the breeder... Plain and simple....


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## Eklectic (Nov 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Just another point of view. This may get long winded, so please forgive me if it does...
> 
> I have been involved with this breed for over 47 years. I helped my Mom and her sometimes breeding partner, Susan Fraser of Bibelot Poodles assess litters for as long as I can remember. We had many champs in our home and in my Mom's breeding program while I grew up.
> 
> ...



Indeed it is very well said! 
Thank you for saying it! It could not have been easy to say, but it needed saying!!! A show breeder is not automatically a good breeder! And a good breeder doesn't need to be a show breeder!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Arreau, I'm sorry for your medical condition. However, I find your explanation hollow. There are good dogs of every color winning out there today. The #1 and #2 Minis in country right now are Silver and Silver Beige (talk about an "off color".) A couple of years ago a Brown Standard bitch was in the top 5.

The whole point of showing is to get an independent opinion from a qualified judge about the quality of your breeding stock. Are there politics? Sure, but, a high quality Poodle will always finish. 

It is easy to say that one has dogs that are show quality. It is much harder to actually back up that statement with finished Champions.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Arreau I am so glad you shared this information and your point applies to many things in general when it comes to posting on a forum Although I think kpoos question is reasonable (as she is very interested in doing the right thing) and sometimes it takes this kind of information on a base by base situation for people to understand. 
That's why I say I leave it to the Pro's!!!! I am way too inexperienced to judge UNLESS it's blatant:wacko:, but I believe in being fair! Too many times I have seen people run off this forum by the list of investigative questions (not referring to kpoos at all) more in an effort to demoralize then educate!! LMAO anymore!!! Without getting to know the situation:rolffleyes: With your experience paaaleeeaaassse - I would recommend you any day!!! You are the type of breeder I want to know, the type of breeder that cares about dogs A LOT, the type of breeder that knows her sh*t!! 

Not knowing what a show quality dog is.........I agree you should not be false advertising! It is a misrepresentation to unsuspecting buyers.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> There are good dogs of every color winning out there today. The #1 and #2 Minis in country right now are Silver and Silver Beige (talk about an "off color".) A couple of years ago a Brown Standard bitch was in the top 5.


I agree , So many people told me poodles of color are hard to show but when we brought Enzo out so many people liked him. He won his first two shows (classes) against a silver boy and a white boy. I was really shocked when he won against the silver boy. We are determine to finish him it might take a while but who cares lol

But before we started showing him we had him evaluated by a top poodle breeder and a top poodle handler.  

It seems like the people who say such things just don't have a good enough dog to finish in the first place. This not directed at anyone but this is from what I seen at the shows.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Arreau, I'm sorry for your medical condition. However, I find your explanation hollow. There are good dogs of every color winning out there today. The #1 and #2 Minis in country right now are Silver and Silver Beige (talk about an "off color".) A couple of years ago a Brown Standard bitch was in the top 5.
> 
> The whole point of showing is to get an independent opinion from a qualified judge about the quality of your breeding stock. Are there politics? Sure, but, a high quality Poodle will always finish.
> 
> It is easy to say that one has dogs that are show quality. It is much harder to actually back up that statement with finished Champions.


I am truly sorry you feel this way. You show and I do not at this point in time. I have agoraphobia and you dont. Do I expect you to understand my point of view- no I do not. Do I expect a little respect for it- yes I do. Just because my tghoughts and opinions differ from yours does not make them wrong. Please do not imply I am hollow or my point of view is hollow. You do not know me, my experience, what I stand for or what I do or do not know.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Arreau, I'm sorry for your medical condition. However, I find your explanation hollow. There are good dogs of every color winning out there today. The #1 and #2 Minis in country right now are Silver and Silver Beige (talk about an "off color".) A couple of years ago a Brown Standard bitch was in the top 5.
> 
> The whole point of showing is to get an independent opinion from a qualified judge about the quality of your breeding stock. Are there politics? Sure, but, a high quality Poodle will always finish.
> 
> It is easy to say that one has dogs that are show quality. It is much harder to actually back up that statement with finished Champions.


When I sold Brandi to her new people, I narrowed the show dogs in the litter down to two of five. When June Fulton (she used to do the showing) and her Granddaughter Kari (she now does the showing)came here from Alberta, they each assessed the two I had chosen for them. They felt they were both show quality, but leaned toward Brandi because her chest was a little better and her colour much darker. So, this puppy being "show quality" was not just based on my assessent. An experienced breeder/exhibitor came here to see if I indeed had show worthy puppies, agreed with my assessment and took one home with her to begin conditioning to prepare for her first shows in the spring. Do you think with the money invested in travelling here and buying a puppy that she would have left here with a puppy that she felt was not going to make it in the ring? I dont hardly think so. If she had arrived, assessed the pups and felt I was mistaken, she would have left here empty handed and waited to see what happened later on, or she would have gone to another breeder. Are you saying NONE of the three of us knows what we are talkking about?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Arreau, I'm sorry for your medical condition. However, I find your explanation hollow. There are good dogs of every color winning out there today. The #1 and #2 Minis in country right now are Silver and Silver Beige (talk about an "off color".) A couple of years ago a Brown Standard bitch was in the top 5.
> 
> The whole point of showing is to get an independent opinion from a qualified judge about the quality of your breeding stock. Are there politics? Sure, but, a high quality Poodle will always finish.
> 
> It is easy to say that one has dogs that are show quality. It is much harder to actually back up that statement with finished Champions.


I have to agree. I mean we have someone on here that is an owner handler that has won 5 points towards the championship of her dog on her own and doing her own grooming. 

The original post wasn't directed towards ANYONE on this board. I saw a website with hideous breeding dogs and wondered how in the world these people can offer a "show contract" to someone if they aren't even breeding conformationally correct standard poodles? This happens all of the time and it's a buyer beware market in dogs let me tell you.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

KPoos said:


> I have to agree. I mean we have someone on here that is an owner handler that has won 5 points towards the championship of her dog on her own and doing her own grooming.
> 
> The original post wasn't directed towards ANYONE on this board. I saw a website with hideous breeding dogs and wondered how in the world these people can offer a "show contract" to someone if they aren't even breeding conformationally correct standard poodles? This happens all of the time and it's a buyer beware market in dogs let me tell you.


Indeed it is!!! It is up to people interested to get to the breeders place of business, get their hands on the pups and see if they agree with the breeders assessment of the litter. I am not for one second saying you should take a breeders word at face value. If you are not sure how to assess a puppy, take someone with you who does know and get them to assess the pups the breeder is saying are show quality. But there ARE breeders who know what they are talking about who are not trying to mislead anyone.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> When I sold Brandi to her new people, I narrowed the show dogs in the litter down to two of five. When June Fulton (she used to do the showing) and her Granddaughter Kari (she now does the showing)came here from Alberta, they each assessed the two I had chosen for them. They felt they were both show quality, but leaned toward Brandi because her chest was a little better and her colour much darker. So, this puppy being "show quality" was not just based on my assessent. An experienced breeder/exhibitor came here to see if I indeed had show worthy puppies, agreed with my assessment and took one home with her to begin conditioning to prepare for her first shows in the spring. Do you think with the money invested in travelling here and buying a puppy that she would have left here with a puppy that she felt was not going to make it in the ring? I dont hardly think so. If she had arrived, assessed the pups and felt I was mistaken, she would have left here empty handed and waited to see what happened later on, or she would have gone to another breeder. Are you saying NONE of the three of us knows what we are talkking about?


I wanted to point out i was agreeing with Cbrand on the color issue. I think if you are breeding dogs and don't show at least have a judge or a few people evaluate your dogs. Like Kspoo said I see too many people saying show quality and their dogs look like a train wreck ! I think its sad that these types of breeders actually think their dogs are beautiful :wacko:


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I also wanted to say that if you aren't showing yourself because of a medical condition but feel you are producing show quality dogs then if you have produced champions obviously you are in a position to judge the quality of the puppies. It's a gamble even for breeders that know exactly what they are producing to say "show quality" because things can fall apart later but if you know what you've produced in the past holds up and finishes or at least does well in the ring, statistics say that you are going to get the same with repeat breedings. 

I talked to a woman that sold puppies on "show contracts" but she had one finished champion and had produced none but her argument on the breeding was that she knows what it was going to produce so she went forward with the repeat of it. Unless you are just breeding dogs to supply the pet market, there is no reason to continue to breed them if you aren't getting the quality that would finish in the ring.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree with Roxy entirely. There are some dogs of colour being put up in the ring, but it is a proportionally small number. I also agree that you have to be careful. ANYONE can say ANYTHING about their dogs. A lot of breeders are totally kennel blind, and think their dogs are the best out there. But if you are dealing with someone experienced in the breed, then you go to them and assess the litter yourself, OR you take someone with you who can. Not everyone in this business is shady or stupid or inexperienced or kennel blind.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

A LOT of people are kennel blind Arreau. No one wants to say that there might be something wrong with their dogs and will defend flaws and make excuses for problems until the buyer believes them. You have no idea how many people I've heard say that "their dogs don't do that" or "the temperaments in all of their dogs are perfect."


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> A lot of breeders are totally kennel blind, and think their dogs are the best out there.


Don't even get me started about that LOL


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> A LOT of people are kennel blind Arreau. No one wants to say that there might be something wrong with their dogs and will defend flaws and make excuses for problems until the buyer believes them. You have no idea how many people I've heard say that "their dogs don't do that" or "the temperaments in all of their dogs are perfect."


I know I hate when a breeder says there is nothing wrong with their dogs. I remember commenting on a breeders dogs and asked about it to the breeder. The reply I got is "I think they are fine" LOL ok ......:bird:


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

There are kennel blind people in EVERY breed .. I agree that you should foster the relationship, with the breeder. And even if you have to *pay someone* to go with you take someone with you that can help you assess, another opinion is VERY important.. WE used to have litter rating parties .... A good breeder will look at 8 weeks weed out the pets and hang on the the potential show pups until 12 weeks .. This is how you assess a show dog.. Not before those times and then dont look at them again until they are at least 4 months.......And even in the best of situations lots of things can still happen to the "Show Quality " puppy....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

KPoos said:


> I also wanted to say that if you aren't showing yourself because of a medical condition but feel you are producing show quality dogs then if you have produced champions obviously you are in a position to judge the quality of the puppies. It's a gamble even for breeders that know exactly what they are producing to say "show quality" because things can fall apart later but if you know what you've produced in the past holds up and finishes or at least does well in the ring, statistics say that you are going to get the same with repeat breedings.
> 
> I talked to a woman that sold puppies on "show contracts" but she had one finished champion and had produced none but her argument on the breeding was that she knows what it was going to produce so she went forward with the repeat of it. Unless you are just breeding dogs to supply the pet market, there is no reason to continue to breed them if you aren't getting the quality that would finish in the ring.


I personally have not produced champions, my Mother did. I helped assess the litters and helped show the dogs. I have only been breeding reds and breeding on my own for five years and have had this condition the entire time (as well as the ten years prior). The combination of my girl and the boy who sired my last two litters is one that is magical. That is why I have two females from last years litter kept to breed. That is why one of this years litter will be shown. I have been involved in this breed long enough to know the difference between a show/breeding quality dog, and a pet puppy. Just because my Betty-Jo and Jenny are not being shown, does not mean I do not think they are worthy. IF I did not have this condition, they most likely would be. But, it is up to anyone looking for a show or breeding dog to not take the breeders word for truth. Go there, and check the babies out yourself or take a mentor with you who has done it and will give an honest evaluation of the pups.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> There are kennel blind people in EVERY breed .. I agree that you should foster the relationship, with the breeder. And even if you have to *pay someone* to go with you take someone with you that can help you assess, another opinion is VERY important.. WE used to have litter rating parties .... A good breeder will look at 8 weeks weed out the pets and hang on the the potential show pups until 12 weeks .. This is how you assess a show dog.. Not before those times and then dont look at them again until they are at least 4 months.......And even in the best of situations lots of things can still happen to the "Show Quality " puppy....


Yeah but we aren't talking about other breeds we are talking about poodles. I was told that you can evaulate conformation at 7-8 weeks and if you are experienced with what's behind your lines, majority of the time when you reevaluate the puppy at 12 weeks it will be the same. That is JUST conformation though. That does not take into account a dog's temperament which is also very important in breeding a quality dog.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

on the subject of flaws
is it common for breeders to photoshop their dogs?

I've been to a few breeders sites ((people I'd never buy from)) and they're clearly tried fixing something on their dogs
like the back, legs, chest ect
its so obvious that its kind of ridiculous xD

have any of you seen this?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> on the subject of flaws
> is it common for breeders to photoshop their dogs?
> 
> I've been to a few breeders sites ((people I'd never buy from)) and they're clearly tried fixing something on their dogs
> ...


Oh gah yes I've seen it. I've seen it from a breeder that's on here even. Some of the pictures of the breeding dogs have clearly been photoshopped. Keith, there are all kinds of marketing in this world and with the internet anything can be taken and "created." I mean look at what they do to celebrities to make them look better.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

OMG!!! YES!!! I have been to a site where it looks like the dogs photos have been cut out (you can see the scissor marks) and pasted onto a different background. And of course, usually when you see this, there will be something missing on the dog- the tail, the front feet...obviously something you are not supposed to be looking at!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Oh gah yes I've seen it. I've seen it from a breeder that's on here even. Some of the pictures of the breeding dogs have clearly been photoshopped. Keith, there are all kinds of marketing in this world and with the internet anything can be taken and "created." I mean look at what they do to celebrities to make them look better.


And once again I encourage you to *go there* and see this for yourself.... Everyone likes to point fingers.... But if you go there you will see it for yourself to prove or to disprove all of their flaws ....


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> OMG!!! YES!!! I have been to a site where it looks like the dogs photos have been cut out (you can see the scissor marks) and pasted onto a different background. And of course, usually when you see this, there will be something missing on the dog- the tail, the front feet...obviously something you are not supposed to be looking at!


I think I know which one you are talking about and it is really bad too HA HA !!!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> And once again I encourage you to *go there* and see this for yourself.... Everyone likes to point fingers.... But if you go there you will see it for yourself to prove or to disprove all of their flaws ....


I'm not clear on what you mean. I was talking about a photoshopped photo of a dog that was ugly to start out with and then made uglier by obvious photoshopping. I have no desire to "go there" and see with my own eyes. That would be a waste of my time if I don't even want a puppy from that breeder.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Nothing specific in general.. If you have certain criteria and want someone to guarantee show quality. Then you should go there and see for yourself.. That is what I meant..


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

KPoos said:


> I'm not clear on what you mean. I was talking about a photoshopped photo of a dog that was ugly to start out with and then made uglier by obvious photoshopping. I have no desire to "go there" and see with my own eyes. That would be a waste of my time if I don't even want a puppy from that breeder.


 I do not think Bigredpoodles is suggesting you go somewhere if you think their dogs are hideous. I think she is saying IF you are being told something and IF you see something that interests you, the ONLY way to be sure, whether or not a breeder shows their dogs, is to go there and assess their pups alone or with a mentor. If you think their dogs are awful, or you know for a fact their quality is not what they say it is, then it would be a complete waste of time, effort and money, because basically most of your assessment has already been done and more than half your questions answered by this point anyway.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

It's just really sad once again at the lengths people go to. 

I can understand the frustration in not wanting to be a part of the unscrupulous people involved in cheating, editing, the whole political BS. I personally never would anyway, I keep some of my opinions to myself just out of respect for some and for the simple fact I am learning from these posts so as a PET owner, if I were to get another dog I will definitely be a little smarter next go around. 

What I don't get is why breeders would do stupid stuff like this and post it on their websites and not be concerned that people are going to call them out on it. Clearly their objectives lack any dignity - but it's so hard for me to not wonder that money is not the bigger goal - I have said this before but what other reasons would people do these things?

I'd love to know what breeder on here has done this because the group here that I am aware of I have visited their sites and I did not see that..........unsuspecting person I guess


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> go there and assess their pups alone or with a mentor.


Only go alone if your experienced yourself. But I would take a mentor , or handler with me as suggested.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I do not think Bigredpoodles is suggesting you go somewhere if you think their dogs are hideous. I think she is saying IF you are being told something and IF you see something that interests you, the ONLY way to be sure, whether or not a breeder shows their dogs, is to go there and assess their pups alone or with a mentor. If you think their dogs are awful, or you know for a fact their quality is not what they say it is, then it would be a complete waste of time, effort and money, because basically most of your assessment has already been done and more than half your questions answered by this point anyway.


Thank you ! I swear sometimes I just do not explain myself well.. I am new to this whole forum thing anyway..Perhaps I should become a lurker? I would be good at that


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Nothing specific in general.. If you have certain criteria and want someone to guarantee show quality. Then you should go there and see for yourself.. That is what I meant..


Oh I get you, no I'm not wanting that for myself. This entire thread was just about those that might be seeking that and getting duped by someone that has no idea what they are even talking about.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Only go alone if your experienced yourself. But I would take a mentor , or handler with me as suggested.


Lots of handlers do not know conformation and are not breeders themselves FYI


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Oh I get you, no I'm not wanting that for myself. This entire thread was just about those that might be seeking that and getting duped by someone that has no idea what they are even talking about.


Ahhh ok then !


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Thank you ! I swear sometimes I just do not explain myself well.. I am new to this whole forum thing anyway..Perhaps I should become a lurker? I would be good at that


Ha,ha!!! I am new at this too and it can be a bit intimidating sometimes, cant it???


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> Lots of handlers do not know conformation and are not breeders themselves FYI


A handler who is experienced ..... Not just any handler same with the mentor why would I take a mastiff breeder to look at poodles LMAO ?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Oh I get you, no I'm not wanting that for myself. This entire thread was just about those that might be seeking that and getting duped by someone that has no idea what they are even talking about.


But the only way you will know if you are being duped is to research, ask a ton of questions, like how long have you been in the breed, what kind of experience do you have in the breed, VERIFY all of the answers you are given, then IF you think there is something you like and trust about this person, and they have a litter you might be keen on, take a mentor with you and assess the litter or "show quality" puppies in it for yourself.

I would hazard a guess here that likely 85 to 90% of the people who breed do NOT know what they are talking about, and do NOT know their breed well enough to be deciding who is show worthy, and are likely breeding for all the wrong reasons with money being their biggest motivator. If that is the case, they are going to tell you whatever they think you need to hear to make a sale with no regard to the consequences . My intent is to be doing this for a very long time, and it is not in my to lie, so I will not mislead people, and tick them off so that they will then badmouth me and taint my reputaton for the future.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> But the only way you will know if you are being duped is to research, ask a ton of questions, like how long have you been in the breed, what kind of experience do you have in the breed, VERIFY all of the answers you are given, then IF you think there is something you like and trust about this person, and they have a litter you might be keen on, take a mentor with you and assess the litter or "show quality" puppies in it for yourself.
> 
> I would hazard a guess here that likely 85 to 90% of the people who breed do NOT know what they are talking about, and do NOT know their breed well enough to be deciding who is show worthy, and are likely breeding for all the wrong reasons with money being their biggest motivator. If that is the case, they are going to tell you whatever they think you need to hear to make a sale with no regard to the consequences . My intent is to be doing this for a very long time, and it is not in my to lie, so I will not mislead people, and tick them off so that they will then badmouth me and taint my reputaton for the future.


Many years ago I was given some very sage advise. To be in dogs you have to have pretty thick skin. ESPECIALLY if you are showing. Talk about people being pissed at you,, HA HA !!!! You go to the show win breed over the top dog in the country with a class dog under 3 owner handled Major win I might add...Talk about pissed....That handler was skinning me alive with his eyes....Did it bother me yep.. But you go on....All you can do is keep your own backyard clean ...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> A handler who is experienced ..... Not just any handler same with the mentor why would I take a mastiff breeder to look at poodles LMAO ?


Yes, there are a lot of handlers who may BREED one specific breed, but handle many. So if you take a handler to assess a litter, be sure it isn't someone who just handles Poos, but breeds them as well.

The man I bought my first Whippet from and whose protege is who I got my second from is Max Magder. He came with his protege to my home to do dew claws on a litter of Whippets his protege and I shared. He is a breeder of many breeds, and a judge who travels around the world, but he didn't know that there is a difference bewteen as red Poodle and an apricot Poodle and he judges Poodles. So, you cannot rely on someones opinion unless they breed the breed.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Yes, there are a lot of handlers who may BREED one specific breed, but handle many. So if you take a handler to assess a litter, be sure it isn't someone who just handles Poos, but breeds them as well.
> 
> The man I bought my first Whippet from and whose protege is who I got my second from is Max Magder. He came with his protege to my home to do dew claws on a litter of Whippets his protege and I shared. He is a breeder of many breeds, and a judge who travels around the world, but he didn't know that there is a difference bewteen as red Poodle and an apricot Poodle and he judges Poodles. So, you cannot rely on someones opinion unless they breed the breed.


Totally agree !


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I know this thread started as specifically about breeders selling “show quality” puppies without perhaps having the experience or titles to back up that claim. And I’m sorry this post got so long, but it is a reflection of my opinion only; as an average pet owner who loves and cares for my dogs as my kids. I love dogs in general, poodles specifically. I am a pretty decent pet owner. Because I worked at a shelter, I am close friends with many area veterinarians, animal control and rescue people; as well as trainers and groomers. I know how to take care of my pack – they are very well-adjusted and happy. If I’m unsure of something in my dog owning/handling skills, I do the research and educating of myself so I am constantly learning and improving.

I will never be interested in showing conformation – it’s just not important to me at all. I have read a bunch of threads on this forum about how important it is for people to show their dogs, to finish their dogs, to title their dogs… That’s great for people who are into that sport, but what about the hundreds, thousands, (tens of thousands? More?) of really, really good poodle owners out there who are just tickled pink to share their home with this marvelous breed and want to give them the best pet home ever?

I agree (WHOLEHEARTEDLY) that not every dog with a uterus needs to be bred, I have cradled hundreds of dogs (even puppies) in my arms and held their veins while the vet administered the euthanasia solution at the shelter because there aren’t enough good homes for the number of dogs on the planet. I am a strong advocate for spay/neuter and ALL of my pets (plus all of the rescues and fosters I’ve had in my home) are fixed as soon as safely possible for their age. 

When I decided I was ready to add a well-bred, healthy standard poodle puppy to my home, it was not a snap decision; nor one made lightly. I searched the poodle rescues, petfinder.com, area shelters, etc., and I could not find what I was looking for – besides the fact that many of the shelters require adopters to live within a certain distance from their facilities so we were discounted right out of the gate because of nothing more than geography.

When I researched breeders, I found many who were obviously in it for the cash. They really didn’t care what they were breeding, as long as they had lots of puppies available for sale – some of which were actually billed as “show quality”. I also found some (IMO) rather snobby “show type” breeders who downtalked other breeders during our first conversations because the other breeders weren’t doing things THEIR way… That was an instant turn-off for me. Educate me, don’t alienate me…

Speaking for myself only (but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were many others out there like me) it was not as important to me to find a breeder whose breeding dogs were titled, as it was to find one who LISTENED to what I had to say. One who offered her knowledge and expertise to assist me in my quest for a puppy whether I purchased from her or not. One who clearly loves her dogs and one who is familiar with the breed standard and is breeding healthy, even-tempered, excellent quality puppies based on her almost ½ century experience with the breed (including that “all-important” showing experience). I couldn’t have WISHED for anything more!!

Sure, some may argue that I could’ve found all that with a breeder who shows – but I really, truly don’t care about titles… Someday, Lucy may get a title in rally or obedience or some performance event – but if she never gets there I won’t love her one smidgen less (and I’ll know it’s because of MY shortcomings not hers – I can already tell she’s smart as a whip! Smarter than I am, most days) 

So, in closing, I believe there is a place for the breeder who shows (as long as they’re ethical in every way) as well as for the breeder who “knows her stuff”, but chooses not to show at the present time – for whatever her personal reasons are; but who still can offer show quality puppies based on independent evaluation.

I’m an educated woman, I’m a savvy dog owner, I’m practical, intelligent and reasonably financially secure and I’d buy from Arreau again in a heartbeat and not regret it for an instant, even if I WERE looking for a “show puppy”!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Many years ago I was given some very sage advise. To be in dogs you have to have pretty thick skin. ESPECIALLY if you are showing. Talk about people being pissed at you,, HA HA !!!! You go to the show win breed over the top dog in the country with a class dog under 3 owner handled Major win I might add...Talk about pissed....That handler was skinning me alive with his eyes....Did it bother me yep.. But you go on....All you can do is keep your own backyard clean ...


I have a girlfriend who just got a grand champion (UKC) of her parti boy. She is experiencing the same thing as you describe. But she is different from you. It doesn't bother her one iota. She is wallowing in it, because a lot of the people who are skinning her alive are the same people who would not give her a chance with one of their puppies, so she is enjoying what she calls "ramming it up their a**" now.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> I know this thread started as specifically about breeders selling “show quality” puppies without perhaps having the experience or titles to back up that claim. And I’m sorry this post got so long, but it is a reflection of my opinion only; as an average pet owner who loves and cares for my dogs as my kids. I love dogs in general, poodles specifically. I am a pretty decent pet owner. Because I worked at a shelter, I am close friends with many area veterinarians, animal control and rescue people; as well as trainers and groomers. I know how to take care of my pack – they are very well-adjusted and happy. If I’m unsure of something in my dog owning/handling skills, I do the research and educating of myself so I am constantly learning and improving.
> 
> I will never be interested in showing conformation – it’s just not important to me at all. I have read a bunch of threads on this forum about how important it is for people to show their dogs, to finish their dogs, to title their dogs… That’s great for people who are into that sport, but what about the hundreds, thousands, (tens of thousands? More?) of really, really good poodle owners out there who are just tickled pink to share their home with this marvelous breed and want to give them the best pet home ever?
> 
> ...


Yes we all realize that plumcrazy....I do not think that this was aimed at anyone in particular...


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I have a girlfriend who just got a grand champion (UKC) of her parti boy. She is experiencing the same thing as you describe. But she is different from you. It doesn't bother her one iota. She is wallowing in it, because a lot of the people who are skinning her alive are the same people who would not give her a chance with one of their puppies, so she is enjoying what she calls "ramming it up their a**" now.


Excuse me? I went on to make that dog the # 20 in the country .. I did not have to wallow in anything He finshed with four majors AKC ...
Owner handled..Did I sound like I was intimidated?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Excuse me? I went on to make that dog the # 20 in the country .. I did not have to wallow in anything He finshed with four majors AKC ...
> Owner handled..Did I sound like I was intimidated?


OOOOOPS!!! What are you talking about here? I did not know you showed a parti to its Grand Championship in UKC? Did you? I am talking about a girlfriend of mine who bought and showed her PARTI. Read my predvious post. Sheryl, dont be so defensive.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Plum, I know some will find this crazy but I don't think a person has to be showing in order to breed nice quality dogs. If they have support (outside professional opinions because a lot are kennel blind) and they are doing something besides providing the pet market with puppies, not to mention doing 100% of the health testing, researching lines, and trying to improve upon what they have, I see nothing wrong with someone getting a dog from them or them breeding.

What I do think is wrong is someone that claims to be producing show quality puppies when you can obviously see that the dogs they are breeding are NOT show quality. That is nothing more than a gimmack to take people for more money and I will not ever support people that do that.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> OOOOOPS!!! What are you talking about here? I did not know you showed a parti to its Grand Championship in UKC? Did you? I am talking about a girlfriend of mine who bought and showed her PARTI. Read my predvious post. Sheryl, dont be so defensive.


OHHH I was talking about AKC sorry ....And AKC standings not defensive at all . I was talking about showing against the top SETTER in AKC standing and how it made ME feel Sorry You brought up the PARTI .. Not defensive at all...... I do not own a PARTI Go back and read your response to my post something about A*** right?
This one  

Quote:
*Originally Posted by bigredpoodle View Post
Many years ago I was given some very sage advise. To be in dogs you have to have pretty thick skin. ESPECIALLY if you are showing. Talk about people being pissed at you,, HA HA !!!! You go to the show win breed over the top dog in the country with a class dog under 3 owner handled Major win I might add...Talk about pissed....That handler was skinning me alive with his eyes....Did it bother me yep.. But you go on....All you can do is keep your own backyard clean ...
I have a girlfriend who just got a grand champion (UKC) of her parti boy. She is experiencing the same thing as you describe. But she is different from you. It doesn't bother her one iota. She is wallowing in it, because a lot of the people who are skinning her alive are the same people who would not give her a chance with one of their puppies, so she is enjoying what she calls "ramming it up their a**" now.*
I guess I was being selfish talking about my experience instead of a friend of a friend sorry .....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Yes we all realize that plumcrazy....I do not think that this was aimed at anyone in particular...


Thank you again Plumcrazy for your kind words. It makes a whole lot of difference when I can send a potential buyer to someone like you for a recomendation, someone who is bright and knows what they are talking about. Someone who has done their research. Someone who is completely satisfied. I will be sending anyone who might not trust what I am saying on to you and Trillium, that is for sure!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> OHHH I was talking about AKC sorry ....And AKC standings not defensive at all . I was talking about showing against the top SETTER in AKC standing and how it made ME feel Sorry You brought up the PARTI .. Not defensive at all...... I do not own a PARTI Go back and read your response to my post something about A*** right?
> This one
> 
> Quote:
> ...


She is a friend, not a friend of a friend. You are reading something into something which was not intended to be nasty or cutting at all. RELAX!!!!!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Okay this has gotten turned around AGAIN!!!! Geez


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> She is a friend, not a friend of a friend. You are reading something into something which was not intended to be nasty or cutting at all. RELAX!!!!!


Like I said go back and read.. I am fine there is nothing upset or stressed about me .... I have shown dogs and I have finished Many champions.... As you know I am VERY remote...I *have shown* my poodles. So I have nothing to be stressed about at all. I am quite proud of what I am doing ..I have NEVER shown UKC, and I do not have partis why would you ask me that if not to be inflammatory? .Why you keep telling me to relax is a mystery to me.. Perhaps you can explain to me....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

You are reading into something that just is not there. SERIOUSLY the way you responded to what I posted, I thought you had gotten a parti and shown it. You are so sure someone is trying to be unkind to you, you are ready to pounce. Nothing was meant by my reference to having a parti. I do not understand you or your hostility or anger at all.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Okay this has gotten turned around AGAIN!!!! Geez


You really have an issue with someone saying something nice about me dont you? Plumcrazy is entitled to her opinion, just as you are, just as I am. She has a right to voice it if she desires. I dont pay her to come on here and say nice things about me bigredpoodle. It it what is in her heart. Forgive us both for liking each other and getting along so well. please?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I suggest people relax as well. This thread was doing good, I don't want to have to lock it so please take it to pm if you have a problem with someone.

Thanks. 

:focus:


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> You are reading into something that just is not there. SERIOUSLY the way you responded to what I posted, I thought you had gotten a parti and shown it. You are so sure someone is trying to be unkind to you, you are ready to pounce. Nothing was meant by my reference to having a parti. I do not understand you or your hostility or anger at all.


That cause there is none.. Hostility or anger not at all....But once again you have turned it around on me Oh WEll ......Sigh  So much for trying to help.....
Go back and read ...


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> That cause there is none.. Hostility or anger not at all....But once again you have turned it around on me Oh WEll ......Sigh  So much for trying to help.....
> Go back and read ...


I suggest people relax as well. This thread was doing good, I don't want to have to lock it so please take it to pm if you have a problem with someone.

Thanks. 

:focus:


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

OMG if I get another thread locked I'm going to be mad.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I suggest people relax as well. This thread was doing good, I don't want to have to lock it so please take it to pm if you have a problem with someone.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> :focus:


Finally


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

KPoos said:


> OMG if I get another thread locked I'm going to be mad.


 Well thank you Kpoos. You made me laugh out loud for the first time in days!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

So, anyway...I think the crux of this is...anyone can say anything about their dogs, and lots of people will just to sell puppies. It IS buyer beware out there, so IF you find a puppy you think interests you, and you have found a breeder you like, ask around if people know of them, what they think of their dogs, what they think of that particular puppy. Dont just ask one person, because it is obvious just on this thread how differing our opinions are. If, you get past this point, then go and see the pups and assess them yourself. If you are not confident you can do this on your own, take someone more knowledgeable with you. If you are not 100% confident in what you`ve been told and what you see, move on to another breeder. You Will find the right breeder and the right puppy for you.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

KPoos said:


> People with websites that offer show contracts when they don't have one single finished champion in their breeding program. How can they even evaluate what a show quality puppy would look like at 7-8 weeks if they've never finished one? Even if they sent a dog out with a handler at least they'd have someone available to go over the litter and evaluate puppies. Not to mention these people are typically asking the same price for a puppy that breeders that have finished and tested their dogs are asking. I guess some people think it's just enough to have health tested your dog to offer show quality puppies to unsuspecting buyers.:fish:


I agree. It's like when people say their dogs are of "champion stock".  And? So what? It's not like every dog produced out of a top line is good enough to breed. Who cares if its pedigree is CHOCK FULL of champions? What does YOUR dog bring to the table?

I've said it before, but titles do matter to me as a puppy buyer. I like to see my breeder involved in the breed, and for me that includes conformation and performance events. Now, as has been pointed out on this thread, there's exceptions to everything. But if I'm going to buy a poodle and not some random mixed breed, then I'm more likely to look favorably on someone who is doing whatever they can to improve the breed and proving it under independent judging.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I see that "champions in pedigree" often and when approached the champions are usually the great grandsire or sometimes even further back. It's a selling point now that people are more aware of what puppymills and backyard breeders are and are looking for quality. Not everyone that breeds and shows is quality though. That's something important to keep in mind also. It's very easy to get dazzled with the pedigree that has loads of champions but if they aren't testing their dogs or they are just doing the very minimum with their dogs, they aren't worth it either.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

KPoos said:


> It's very easy to get dazzled with the pedigree that has loads of champions but if they aren't testing their dogs or they are just doing the very minimum with their dogs, they aren't worth it either.


I'm interested to find out why you think that a "pedigree full of champions" isn't worth it either even with the minimum testing?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

thestars said:


> I'm interested to find out why you think that a "pedigree full of champions" isn't worth it either even with the minimum testing?


Ever hear of a polygenic inheritence?:doh:

I was thinking about this and then thought I'd add something. Just because someone has "champions" in the pedigree doesn't make it healthy okay. That means NOTHING if they don't test their dogs for the things that the breed is unfortunate enough to be plagued with. Why should anyone trust someone just because they finished some dogs? There's a lot more to breeding than showing and I'd rather have a pedigree with not one champion in it but completely health tested than one that's got a champion for 5 generations with only the basic testing done. You make it sound as if the only true test of a breeder's intergity is the pedigree behind their dogs.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Ever hear of a polygenic inheritence?:doh:
> 
> I was thinking about this and then thought I'd add something. Just because someone has "champions" in the pedigree doesn't make it healthy okay. That means NOTHING if they don't test their dogs for the things that the breed is unfortunate enough to be plagued with. Why should anyone trust someone just because they finished some dogs? There's a lot more to breeding than showing and I'd rather have a pedigree with not one champion in it but completely health tested than one that's got a champion for 5 generations with only the basic testing done. You make it sound as if the only true test of a breeder's intergity is the pedigree behind their dogs.


HUH? I thought that is what you were looking for .. I am confused now....You want to see the breeder showing and testing correct?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> HUH? I thought that is what you were looking for .. I am confused now....You want to see the breeder showing and testing correct?


Right, I'd prefer to see a breeder that shows and does ALL health testing not just some. That's my personal preference.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

You do realize that a dog can become a champion and have a multitude of health problems and also not have the best conformation , the two do not necessarily go hand in hand ... Sometimes it is about who is showing it and about who is behind it. Sometimes it is all about the advertising ...


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> You do realize that a dog can become a champion and have a multitude of health problems and also not have the best conformation , the two do not necessarily go hand in hand ... Sometimes it is about who is showing it and about who is behind it. Sometimes it is all about the advertising ...


I absolutely realize it. With the studying I've done with pedigrees, I've seen plenty of dogs that are finished champions that have produced addisons or HD or dogs with allergies or epilepsy in their pedigrees that have champion upon champion. I think what I'm saying is that I want a dog that's from FULLY health tested parents (even though it's not 100% guarantee) with a breeder that is showing so that I know that at least it's parents are conformationally correct. BUT like I said if someone was holding a gun to my head and making me pick, I'd pick the puppy out of a fully health tested litter with no champions over one that has minimal health testing and a champion in every name of the pedigree.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> you do realize that a dog can become a champion and have a multitude of health problems and also not have the best conformation , the two do not necessarily go hand in hand ... Sometimes it is about who is showing it and about who is behind it. Sometimes it is all about the advertising ...


amen!!!!!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> amen!!!!!


But if you ever want anything to change, you have to show up and do something about it.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> I absolutely realize it. With the studying I've done with pedigrees, I've seen plenty of dogs that are finished champions that have produced addisons or HD or dogs with allergies or epilepsy in their pedigrees that have champion upon champion. I think what I'm saying is that I want a dog that's from FULLY health tested parents (even though it's not 100% guarantee) with a breeder that is showing so that I know that at least it's parents are conformationally correct. BUT like I said if someone was holding a gun to my head and making me pick, I'd pick the puppy out of a fully health tested litter with no champions over one that has minimal health testing and a champion in every name of the pedigree.


Good Girl That is excellent answer. Health is everything.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Good Girl That is excellent answer. Health is everything.


Double amen!!!


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## TinyPoodles (Nov 25, 2009)

Health is everything as is foundation for the future of a program.

So is breeding for a purpose other than just to produce pups. 

Championship titles prove that the puppy/dog was "judged" a few times to be structurally sound. Independent opinions... plural. 

Working titles prove that they puppy/dog have intelligence and confidence and desire to work..(kind of what the breed was bred for right?). 

Believe you me...I have seen many dogs not get titles (working or show) because they were too skiddish, too goofy, too high strung, not structurally sound, no working ability, basically lacking in some way... titling also helps weed out those poodles that should not be bred because they do not meet the breed standard in some way. 

Titles (and there are many you can get in MANY activities) and many you can get locally without sending a dog away long distance ...basically back that evening... prove that you are striving to better the breed and breeding towards a goal. 

Does this cost a breeder money...heck yes that is why breeding is called a "hobby" and not a business...and breeders spend that money and effort because they do want "outside" proof ...tangible proof that their beliefs are correct. That their "opinons" about their dogs are correct. 

Lets face it...people today want their moneys worth.
It is up to the Breeder to prove that what they are breeding is worthy...not by words and opinions and stories...but by tangible PROOF. 

Other breeders are really raising the bar too, with doing every health testing available and cross titling their poodles (working and conformation). 

AND it is probably a good thing.

The pressure is on Breeders to constantly improve. 

If Breeders can't complete all the health testing available or obtain something with their dogs...well... what more can be said...


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## Linda Hughes (Oct 11, 2009)

After seeing what I saw last year there is no way I would ever trust my dog with a professional Handler. Last year in Cleveland I walked into the IX center early Saturday morning and I saw atleast 10 Shelties that were left in crates in the IX center all night. How could these people just leave these dogs by themselves and to think that some of these owners thought their dogs were in good hands and being taken care of.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Linda Hughes said:


> After seeing what I saw last year there is no way I would ever trust my dog with a professional Handler. Last year in Cleveland I walked into the IX center early Saturday morning and I saw atleast 10 Shelties that were left in crates in the IX center all night. How could these people just leave these dogs by themselves and to think that some of these owners thought their dogs were in good hands and being taken care of.


I know what you mean a handler will NEVER get a hand on my dogs NEVER !!!!
After showing for many years and seeing what I have seen .. It just will not happen....


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

This sure is confusing! 
A lot has been said already, and good points...no need to repeat, but one thing I can 'offer'... I found by going to a line that was 'full of Ch's' had health testing done for many generations. (At least what was available at the time) I'd want that in my pedigree over byb's pedigree of no Ch's whatsoever. What makes you think that 'no names' are any better? They are not any healthier, just they are not the ones that are reported.
(For obvious reasons)
I'd much rather know what is 'there' than go blindly with so much unknown.

Now having said that... I did take a chance bringing in my Czech import, but not sorry in the least. But it will be important to carefully keep track of her puppies.


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

But that's why you listen to 'the talk' and find out who to stay away from, etc.
There is plenty that goes around.


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

Linda, you may not like it but it is common practice for handlers and even some owner/handlers to leave dogs at a show site overnight. The show site is usually secure, being closed after a certain hour and opening at a certain hour with security. When you have more than one or two dogs, keeping them in a hotel room is not an option. It is more secure and safe than dogs staying in vehicles. Usually, a handler will potty the dogs last thing at night, leave water in the crate and take them out first thing in the morning. It is no more unseemly than a dog sleeping in a crate at home. I would rather my dog sleep in his/her crate in the secure show site than be kept in the back of some vehicle overnight in a hotel parking lot where it could be stolen. What else can you expect? They can't exactly keep 5 dogs in a hotel room (and many handlers have more than 5 at a show). Even some of my friends will keep their pets at a show site overnight depending on how many they have with them and how big they are. No one wants to schlep 3 great danes to and from a show/hotel.


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

Where can I get the inside information on what dogs carry addisons, etc? Is there a website? I would like to know if there are any known/published health issues in my pup's background.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

KalaMama said:


> Where can I get the inside information on what dogs carry addisons, etc? Is there a website? I would like to know if there are any known/published health issues in my pup's background.


Yes, go to poodle health registry. You should be able to see the entire pedigree and what's been produced if a dog has produced something bad and if it's produced something good. It's a wonderful tool in researching pedigrees.


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I agree with Roxy entirely. There are some dogs of colour being put up in the ring, but it is a proportionally small number. I also agree that you have to be careful. ANYONE can say ANYTHING about their dogs. A lot of breeders are totally kennel blind, and think their dogs are the best out there. But if you are dealing with someone experienced in the breed, then you go to them and assess the litter yourself, OR you take someone with you who can. Not everyone in this business is shady or stupid or inexperienced or kennel blind.



IF I have 12 brown M&Ms and 1 Red M&M in a brown paper bag, the chances that I pick out a brown M&M are greater than of picking out a red one. 

There are TONS of black and white poodles out and about, but I have only seen one red at a show in the year and some months I have been out. 

I think the reason that a proportionally small number of colored dogs are being put up, is that there are a proportionally small number of colored dogs being shown.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I have a of question for all of you who exhibit. When I am able to show again, if I were to look at UKC, where are the Ontario shows. There are three of us looking for info, and we can only find one cluster of shows that happens once a year.

Entries appear to be down drastically in the CKC shows. We went to the Owen Sound (Grey/Bruce Kennel Club) show this summer as observers (it is an outdoor show), and in three days, there was not one Standard Poodle entered.

Thanks for any information regarding UKC in Ontario.


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

Where can I get the inside information on what dogs carry addisons, etc? Is there a website? I would like to know if there are any known/published health issues in my pup's background. 

In addition to the PHR, there is the K9Addisons yahoo group. There are quite a few pedigrees there tthat are not on PHR.
PHR can be very difficult to list a dog- only the owner, with documentation can list. The breeder who no longer owns the dog can NOT list the dog.


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

Unfortunately, the lists that you find on these sites are only there due to owners taking the time and effort to list their dog as having it after they have been diagnosed at some point. Addisions is a disease of the moment. In other words, a dog does not have it until they have it. There is no test that says "this dog carries it" or "might develop it". A dog isn't known to have it until they develop the symptoms and are tested specifically for the disease (which sometimes may not occur for months or years due to the vague nature of the disease and the waxing and waning of symptoms that can occur). So, someone with a dog who develops it and eventually gets diagnosed may not go in after the fact and register their dog as having it.


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

Very true. 98% of disease is not listed on the site or sites, you only hear about problems "word of mouth".
It is a mine field for anyone. Health testing only goes so far, there is no genetic test for addisons or bloat, which are much worse than what can be tested for.
Carole


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

But it's a good place to start.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

frostfirestandards said:


> IF I have 12 brown M&Ms and 1 Red M&M in a brown paper bag, the chances that I pick out a brown M&M are greater than of picking out a red one.
> 
> There are TONS of black and white poodles out and about, but I have only seen one red at a show in the year and some months I have been out.
> 
> I think the reason that a proportionally small number of colored dogs are being put up, is that there are a proportionally small number of colored dogs being shown.


I agree 100 % The last AKC show we attended there was an Apricot boy But Kitty stuck out like a sore thumb  . People came form all around to admire and ask about her, including the judge She was fascinated with her..She had only "Heard of the reds " She loved her but the tail was not up enough...Something to work on.


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## TinyPoodles (Nov 25, 2009)

Linda Hughes said:


> After seeing what I saw last year there is no way I would ever trust my dog with a professional Handler. Last year in Cleveland I walked into the IX center early Saturday morning and I saw atleast 10 Shelties that were left in crates in the IX center all night. How could these people just leave these dogs by themselves and to think that some of these owners thought their dogs were in good hands and being taken care of.


I took my dogs to the Skydome to show and we booked rooms there overlooking the show venue. We were told we could leave our dogs on the show floor. Wow what a relief it was to not have to bring double the cages, lug extra cages up into an already cramped room. We toileted the dogs around 10:00pm and got down there again around 0500 to toilet them again. Just like what we do at home.
There was security guards everywhere and we had to show ID. 
AND the Dogs and Myself got a great nights sleep. 

Not much difference in leaving them at the show venue or putting them in the hotel room and putting them in a cage there. 

EXCEPT when you leave them at the show venue you don't get them having car sickness (timing feeding wrong, or nerves of the dog),which means grooming all over again.... less chance of injury getting them loaded and unloaded 2x a day (I had a dog jump out of the van and sprain their leg show morning) and at the show venue the dogs are settled and relaxed, get used to their environment and get used to all the noises, smells, so they are more relaxed and content. Just a thought.

Don't forget just because you hire a handler doesn't mean they have to go away or go overnight.
I have dropped my dogs off at a handler's place and picked up that night. If you develop a good relationship with a handler nearby they may even do door to door service. Many options


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