# Dakota "attacking" Neeka when she comes in after walks



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I put the word _attacking_ in quotes because it was not a violent attack, just more aggressive than I like. My hubby took Neeka for a walk, which only invigorates her. Walks do not make Neeka tired. So when she is taken off leash inside the house, Neeka surges forward and may zoom around the room.

I was sitting quietly reading the PF on my tablet with Dakota lying on my legs sleeping. DH and Neeka comes through the front door, Neeka surges, and Dakota launches himself at her and they tussled very aggressively. I yelled and broke it up. No one was hurt, but I do not want this situation to turn into a real fight where Dakota bites Neeka. I have been overlooking Dakota's reaction before, which was mostly my being too lazy to address it.

I believe Dakota has a high prey drive and that is why he went after Neeka. He has done this outside if he goes out first and Neeka joins him. Outside where there is room to run it is ok if no one is getting bit. If Neeka wants to go outside to go potty and Dakota is already there, I sometimes go out first and tell Dakota to knock it off and Neeka goes behind me to do her business.

Dakota does not attack either of the other dogs when we are all together and no one is running. He has not drawn blood since he was a young puppy but he will nip Neeka during these tussles.

I want to address the Neeka coming into the room fast after being walked by my DH. My idea is to put Dakota on a leash when Neeka comes in and to work more on down stays with him. Once Neeka stops zooming, she won't be attacked. I could also crate Dakota while Neeka comes in and runs around, but Dakota won't be learning much that way.

Any ideas?


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

It seems to me that Dakota is putting Neeka in her place because she is being hyper. He is getting older and is trying to take charge and keep the peace.

Instead of working with Dakota, can you teach Neeka better manners when coming back, ie being calm ? Just a thought.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

It may seem that way from my description, but Dakota has always been very aggressive towards Neeka from day 1. Neeka only defends herself on occasion. Neeka has Addisons and tends to run away if challenged.

If Dakota is by himself in the backyard, and Neeka comes out of the house slowly, Dakota will not attack right away, but he lowers his head, stares at her, lifts one front foot, and stands motionless till Neeka moves. Then he chases her. He basically treats her like prey even though she is twice his size.

Outside Neeka feels more confident and they usually just chase each other. If Dakota is too much for her, Neeka runs thru the doggie door to get away.

If Neeka would bark or nip him back, I think Dakota would back down. Since she won't, I need to work on training Dakota more.

I also feel Neeka should be able to run in her own house on occasion. I will crate Dakota or put him in another room before I take that away from her.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

*Prey Drive or Herding Drive?*

I almost started a new thread about this, but in thinking over Dakota's temperament, he is not so much "hunting" Neeka, but is treating her more like he was a border collie stalking a sheep. So he is chasing and nipping at various parts of her in a very intense way when they are playing with a toy or just running around. He doesn't do it as much as he did as a puppy, but he still does it.

Here is a picture of a border collie "giving the eye" to some cattle before he goes in to herd them. This is exactly like Dakota acts in the backyard when he is looking at Neeka sometimes.









I went to a border collie forum where they were discussing if border collies had a high prey drive, and here is an excerpt from Prey Drive & the Border Collie - General Border Collie Discussion - BC Boards

*... (based on Coppinger's theory), wild wolves are predators and their behavior follows a seven-step sequence:
Orient
Eye
Stalk
Chase
Grab
Bite-Kill
Bite-Dissect 

As people have bred dogs, they have pulled the pattern apart, emphasizing certain aspects and downplaying or eliminating others, depending on their purpose.

People can promote certain characteristics by either breeding pairs of dogs that share the desired qualities or by allowing dogs to breed randomly but culling puppies from the litter that do not possess those characteristics. In either case, the genetic frequency for the desired quality goes up in each generation.

Herding dogs must eye and stalk, but never bite or kill. Hounds chase. Retrievers must grab the prey but should not dissect. Dogs that did their job well were allowed to reproduce, those that didn't were not. With intense selection, traits can be fixed in just a few generations. *


Dakota will orient, eye, stalk, chase, and grab and nip. Hopefully he will never go on to the last 2 steps.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Millie does this same thing with Jasper..... she is a fairly high energy dog and does it to initiate a rough game of play. Often she will do it in the yard when we return from a walk (even a long one). Jasper is 85 lbs and Millie is 50 lbs, so if Jasper is not in the mood for it then he ignores her, walks away, and that is that, she gives up fairly easily.
Often he will be okay with it, they'll start an intense game of rough and tumble tag until they are both exhausted, and then they are done.

It sounds to me as if Dakota too is wanting to initiate a good rough and tumble "dog game" and Neeka is maybe not quite as interested? 
Millie has such a passive personality that her silliness to the other dogs never sparks any aggression. They will ignore her if they are not in the mood and then she'll quit. I'm glad, I could see it being a problem otherwise.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Interesting, I never thought non-cattle dogs could do that. You're right, it's a totally different problem. It's weird though that Dakota is only doing it to one of your dogs.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I am grateful that Dakota is not bothering Phoenix. Dakota did bite her badly when I first got him and I kept the dogs separated for months. Phoenix was afraid to be in the same room with him for a long time. I had to drop kibble all over the floor and all 3 dogs would eat side by side and they learned to be next to each other without interacting. So things are much, much better than when Dakota was a young puppy.

Phoenix has mobility issues and never ever runs. Phoenix does not play with the other 2 dogs, only with me. So Phoenix does not "push his buttons" to trigger the chase. I often send Phoenix outside by herself without the other 2 so that no one bothers her while she is trying to potty with her weak hind legs.

Neeka, while being a fearful dog, is very energetic. So she likes to run and she wants to play with Dakota even though he nips her. I am hoping Dakota will get better about nipping as he gets older. He has improved already. I just think I have to work on him more.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you are right - lots of work on self control and polite behaviour. Does Dakota get to play with other dogs? I wonder if perhaps he has been getting things rather too much his own way, with Neeka and Phoenix reluctant or unable to tell him off when he goes too far. Older dogs are very good at teaching puppies polite behaviour, but it is a lesson that often needs to be repeated a number of times! It sounds as if Dakota's play is becoming bullying, which is where I would step in - the standard dog signal is to step between the two and stand still = Even placing a foot between them can work. Distraction and redirection should help (call Dakota for a quick, vigorous game of tug or retrieve, for example). I would monitor all interactions for a while, and interrupt before he gets too hyped up - think of it as teaching him good manners. I have a bit of the same problem with Poppy and Tilly-cat - Poppy wants to chase, Tilly rarely wants to be chased. These days a quiet "Poppy, I am watching you!" is usually enough to break the chain!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I haven't been able to get Dakota around other dogs for a few months. But when I did, yes, he did not bully them as he does Neeka. Sigh. Winter makes me lazy but I am going to have to start regular training sessions in the basement with Dakota. I plan to start taking dog classes again in March or April. The good news is he seems to be at a good age to understand me better when training.

Part of this particular problem with Neeka coming inside and running after a walk is my DH and I have to agree how to handle it. We have different opinions on what to do, which mskes me mad at him as well as Dakota.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

When there are multiple dogs it does become more complex to manage the group dynamics doesn't it? Lily is a social status seeker and she can be aggressive towards both boys. Entering and leaving the house, getting in and out of the car and sometimes getting on and off furniture can incite her to think she has to remind them of their lower order position in the pack. I don't think I will ever be able to change her thinking on this, so instead I manage the heck out of it. She is so obedient to me that she will leave it if I catch her as she approaches one of the boys. I can also put her on a sit or down to give her something static and incompatible to what she was planning on her own.

I hear you on being in disagreement with DH about how to manage this. I work hard to manage and BF doesn't much care if she goes after Javvy and he yells her name without telling her something else to do and then tells me she is so mean if she goes after Peeves. His responses are not productive to the management of the situation. I try to get him to change his response, but haven't had much luck.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

MiniPoo said:


> I haven't been able to get Dakota around other dogs for a few months. But when I did, yes, he did not bully them as he does Neeka. Sigh. Winter makes me lazy but I am going to have to start regular training sessions in the basement with Dakota. I plan to start taking dog classes again in March or April. The good news is he seems to be at a good age to understand me better when training.
> 
> Part of this particular problem with Neeka coming inside and running after a walk is my DH and I have to agree how to handle it. We have different opinions on what to do, which mskes me mad at him as well as Dakota.


Maybe the fact that you are anticipating an event when DH and Neeka come in is making it worse ? Have you tried it with you not in the house ? Not saying it's your fault, but sometimes our dogs react in a strange way when they sense our worries or fears.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

my first thought was to make sure Dakota has a very solid down/stay even when Neeka is doing her post-walk zooming, but that only really applies in that single situation.

that he is herding her is very interesting (I've heard of poodles herding, but assumed it was taught rather than instinct - your guy must be special!). Perhaps finding some resources specific to herding breeds and how owners can manage their behavior might be helpful? I imagine information for training herding might be more useful than poodle or general behavior info in your particular case.

Another thought I had was helping Neeka stand up for herself. I have no idea if having her bark on command would be enough to intimidate Dakota into good behavior - probably not, but just a possibility. Or perhaps tilt the scales in Neeka's favor during a few interactions. Perhaps if Dakota were worn out by some other exercise, and then played with a fresh and energized Neeka out in the yard, that might change the dynamic between them? 

Is there a way for your husband to warn you when he's about to come inside with Neeka? If so, perhaps call Dakota to you at that point and give him a a treat or toy to occupy himself beside you with while your Husband comes in and Neeka does her running. It doesn't solve the behavior itself, but if Dakota learns that Neeka coming inside means he gets good things (but only while he stays beside you), at least there might be fewer 'attacks'.

I happily volunteer my Jasper for both wearing Dakota out and for seeing how he'll interact with other dogs since he's not been around them in a few months. He is much larger than Dakota, but seems to rank right about center in dog hierarchy: he's not at all dominant, but is also not afraid to growl and show a bit of teeth if he's pushed around too much. (Piper is a "bowl-smaller-dogs-over" type and is best suited to her size dogs or larger, hence her not being volunteered


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

MiniPoo said:


> I almost started a new thread about this, but in thinking over Dakota's temperament, he is not so much "hunting" Neeka, but is treating her more like he was a border collie stalking a sheep. So he is chasing and nipping at various parts of her in a very intense way when they are playing with a toy or just running around. He doesn't do it as much as he did as a puppy, but he still does it.
> 
> Here is a picture of a border collie "giving the eye" to some cattle before he goes in to herd them. This is exactly like Dakota acts in the backyard when he is looking at Neeka sometimes.
> 
> ...


Wowzer. This also describes Ari's behavior very well. I keep telling people that Ari is a "border collie in a mini poodle body" and it's funny to hear that Dakota has a bit of that as well!

Especially "giving the eye"... she gives Sophie, her toys, and very occasionally me exactly that look before springing into action to nip, nip, nip. I have never had a herding breed but realized while I was reading the book about Chaser the BC (Chaser book thread) that Ari displays a lot of herding-type behaviors. Particularly that very still and focused, head-down, wide-eyed look. She also has a different way of playing fetch than Sophie; the chase is much more important to her than the retrieve (Sophie is just the opposite and loves bringing the ball back most of all). When Ari encounters squirrels/cats/rabbits in the yard, she runs in circles around them rather than chasing them like Sophie would. Weird, until I realized she was "containing" them! haha :alberteinstein:

At first, I was training Ari like she was a labrador (like the guide dogs I raised) or a poodle like Sophie, both of which are driven by food/retrieving and praise. Ari was easily distracted and drove me nuts with demanding behaviors. The trainer we work with most often, who specializes in herding with BCs and Aussies, suggested we switch to movement-based rewards for her and see how that worked. We got a lotus ball and a sheepskin tug with handles. Well, I can now keep her attention in even the craziest environments! She turns her nose up at food sometimes but never at a game of tug! This seems to echo your experience in training Dakota to potty using a toy rather than food.

Relatedly, my sister started having much more luck working with Ari when we stopped looking at her nipping as aggression and started addressing it as an inappropriate attempt to herd or control her. At one point Ari was walking up to my sister while she stood in place or lay on the couch and nipping her feet until she got a reaction. Obviously totally inappropriate, but not actually borne out of anger or any other negative emotion. Ari was trying to initiate play with her just like she does with Sophie! We "reset" her by redirecting her onto toys and she has completely stopped doing that. At the same time, my sister started taking more of a leadership role with Ari by working with her on obedience and other mundane things. We are still working on the RG and making her totally OK with having her toys taken away, but she is already much better about that with my sister too.

Ari also does the nipping and chasing with Sophie that Dakota does to Neeka. The big difference there is that Sophie has been around the block many times with naughty puppies and she will let out a big booming bark and roll Ari onto the floor until Ari licks her lips and relents. Ari also tries to steal toys from Sophie, but Sophie will just tell her with a firm paw and low growl that she needs to "stay back". If Neeka is too timid to do that, you will have to manage their interactions some other way.

Here is photographic proof that peace is possible (something I would not have believed a month ago)! This was taken over the weekend.









I wonder if the heavy selection in Dakota's line (and slightly less so in Ari's) for performance traits has brought out more of these pushy, high-drive behaviors and personality characteristics. I really like this personality type as I get to know it, but at the same time I could see it being difficult for someone who was looking for more of a poodley-poodle. I was thinking that maybe I had shaped Ari to become this way through my interactions with her, but Dakota's behavior would begin to suggest that it might be a familial tendency. If so, these pups should come with a warning label, "Pup may not be as poodley as s/he appears!" since Ari has some traits that I would not necessarily have expected from a poodle.

How great would it be to get these two together for a good tumble sometime? Ari would be shocked to have a playmate that could finally hold his own with her!

I agree with people who posted before me to use this as a training opportunity. Make sure Dakota is "working" whenever Neeka comes through the door. Give him a task to complete that will override his urge to nip her. Maybe a down-stay will eventually work but in the meantime you could play an exciting game of Touch or have him just run through a number of obedience cues until the environment is quieter.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Coldbrew, you have hit on some ideas that have been swirling around in my head. I do think the key is that I be prepared for when my DH brings Neeka back inside after a walk. I think we can manage this.

Putting Dakota in a down stay with Neeka doing zoomies around the living room is probably more than he can handle right now. But I can try throwing kibble on the floor and see if all dogs stop to eat. This technique has worked before.

I have been reading more about Border Collies and I read one place that if you do not get a BC puppy enough exercise, then it will tear up your house and nip and jump on everything and everyone. I do believe I need to give Dakota more exercise. He has been pretty good lately except for going over the top with tussling with Neeka.

Coldbrew, let's talk sometime soon and see if we can rent Jodie's dog club so that Jasper and Dakota can meet and see how it goes. Give me a call when you have time. Thanks!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Oh, it is definitely his performance breeding that is causing this behavior. The reason I believe this is because, funnily enough, Neeka came from a performance breeder as well and she had many of these same issues as a puppy. She bit the 2 older dogs when I got her home and I had to tether her for months before she was allowed to run free among the older dogs. Having raised Neeka and seen that she mellowed out in a couple of years is what gives me an optimistic expectation that Dakota will mellow out as well.

If Neeka didn't have a high flight response and a mild case of Addisons, I think Neeka could handle Dakota just fine because they are BOTH energetic and playful like Border Collies. Neeka even looks similar to a BC.









I have learned to redirect Dakota a lot to a toy. When I have Phoenix on my lap on the couch and Dakota jumps up and starts making jealous little barks, I ask him "Where's your toy? Where's your toy" Then he looks on the floor, finds one he likes and brings it to me. I pet Phoenix with my right hand and play tug of war with Dakota with my left. Then I throw the toy across the room and Dakota makes a 3 ft high leap in the air and runs after it, brings it back, and repeat.

So toys are great distractors. Perhaps I should keep his favorite Gecko on hand when Neeka is zooming. But those zoomies really work up Dakota into a frenzy. I'll have to experiment and see what works.

Sophie Anne, I really wish you lived closer to Illinois. It would be fun to see Ari and Dakota together. I personally think Ari would put Dakota in his place.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

MiniPoo said:


> I have learned to redirect Dakota a lot to a toy. When I have Phoenix on my lap on the couch and Dakota jumps up and starts making jealous little barks, I ask him "Where's your toy? Where's your toy" Then he looks on the floor, finds one he likes and brings it to me. I pet Phoenix with my right hand and play tug of war with Dakota with my left. Then I throw the toy across the room and Dakota makes a 3 ft high leap in the air and runs after it, brings it back, and repeat.
> 
> So toys are great distractors. Perhaps I should keep his favorite Gecko on hand when Neeka is zooming. But those zoomies really work up Dakota into a frenzy. I'll have to experiment and see what works.
> 
> Sophie Anne, I really wish you lived closer to Illinois. It would be fun to see Ari and Dakota together. I personally think Ari would put Dakota in his place.


I have also trained Ari to find a toy when I ask her "Where is your toy?" and that is very handy when I don't want to get up from the couch to give her my full attention.

Maybe Dakota also needs a brush-up on settling himself. Reward him quietly with something un-stimulating (I use boiled chicken dropped between Ari's paws) whenever you notice him being calm while saying whatever word you want to cue quiet behavior with. Ari's word is "settle" which means she needs to calm herself on the outside AND on the inside, in a down position with her chin on the floor. Laying down while giving me "the look" and moaning does not count, nor does laying down with her tail sticking up full of tense excitement. She has to be loose and relaxed.

It looks like this: (taken in a fairly busy dog-friendly store at about 5 mos old)









Ari can usually do it in even the most busy situations nowadays, but it took some practice to get there. It is very handy when you don't have a toy or can't play with a toy but need to flip the "off" switch!

Start off just marking and rewarding when he's already relaxed, and then work up to cuing it in increasingly exciting conditions. It'll be super useful when he takes his second crack at the CGC, too!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

sophie anne said:


> I have also trained Ari to find a toy when I ask her "Where is your toy?" and that is very handy when I don't want to get up from the couch to give her my full attention.
> 
> Maybe Dakota also needs a brush-up on settling himself. Reward him quietly with something un-stimulating (I use boiled chicken dropped between Ari's paws) whenever you notice him being calm while saying whatever word you want to cue quiet behavior with. Ari's word is "settle" which means she needs to calm herself on the outside AND on the inside, in a down position with her chin on the floor. Laying down while giving me "the look" and moaning does not count, nor does laying down with her tail sticking up full of tense excitement. She has to be loose and relaxed.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes, Sophie Anne,you are absolutely right. I usually get him to settle by moving around his dog bed and pointing to it, but that might not work out too well during a CGC test, huh?

I said I would try again for the CGC after the first of the year, and awww, you remembered. 

I was working with him in the basement (away from other dogs) yesterday on heeling, and sit and down stays. Will work on settle as well.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

*Neeka wins this one!*

When Dechi commented that it might be my anticipation of a mixup that could be contributing to Dakota being aggressive with Neeka, I did not think this was the case. But the comment made me think that perhaps my very presence WAS contributing to the way Dakota and Neeka interact. So I did a few experiments today.

*EXPERIMENT 1: NOW YOU SEE ME. NOW YOU DON'T.* 
Both the dogs were in the backyard chasing each other and Dakota was getting over excited and trying to bite Neeka. A few times she ran inside to get away from him. I usually watch the dogs when they are playing so that I can intercede if necessary. But a couple of times I stepped back from the door where they could not see me. The dogs stopped fighting and Neeka came in through the doggie door and Dakota stratched at the back door to come inside. Out of the 3 times I stepped back out of sight, twice they stopped playing/fighting and once they did continue interacting.

So I do think my presence gives Dakota a feeling of security that he is safe enough to play with abandonment. So the next time if they are fighting inside the house, instead of putting Dakota in a timeout, I am going to try to leave the room myself.

*EXPERIMENT 2: THE NEW BALL*
Neeka will not usually defend herself but once in a while if she cares about a toy enough, she will be more assertive in keeping it. I took out a new toy ball today and let all the dogs smell it, then put it down on the floor. Dakota took it and ran away. I turned to Neeka and said, "Are you going to let him have ALL the toys?" and I repeated this several times to her.

Then I wanted to remove my influence from their interaction, so I concentrated on petting Phoenix and speaking to her. Soon I saw Neeka grap the white ball and run with it. Dakota tried to get it back, but she used her paw to push him down, and whipped her head aside so that he could not get it. After a while, Dakota gave up, and THE BALL WAS NEEKA'S!

*The picture is blurry but Neeka is using her right leg to push Dakota down away from the ball. *








*Dakota says, "I really don't care about that ball anyway!"*








*EXPERIMENT 3: NEEKA COMING IN FROM A WALK*
DH took Neeka for a walk late tonight after dark. I heard them opening the door and held Dakota on my lap. He slowly walked Neeka inside on the leash and stood there. Maybe it was because of the late hour, but Neeka did not seem inclined to do the zoomies. I told DH to take a handful of kibble and throw it on the floor. When he did that, I let Dakota down and both dogs ate the kibble and walked away. No drama this time.

I consider today to be a success in learning how to handle Dakota and his interactions with Neeka. I realize now that I can make the situation worse just by observing it actively. When I removed my attention from Dakota and Neeka, the interaction seemed less violent. So in a way, Dechi was right on with her suggestion in that I was contributing to the situation.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Glad I could help. I thought about this because I have been myself triggering severe dog aggression from one of my dogs just by being present. when I wasn't present, she would have a blast playing with the dogs...


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Congratulations on your successful experiments! 
the picture of Dakota and Neeka side by side is very cute - him with the grin and her with the ball 

I will call sometime this afternoon and we can set that up. I think they'll get along nicely


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