# Opinions please what colour is she?



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Blue. A black can't fade to brown but a blue generally goes through a phase where the coat looks brownish before it clears to that nice blue color. 

In your pictures, her coat doesn't look brown to me at all. She looks blue


----------



## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

Looks blue to me too. My guy is 21 months & looked terribly brown for a while. Looking at him in the sun today I could definitely see blue.


----------



## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Beautiful blue. Grin they tend to go through a "seal" color stage before they start to fade out to blue. If I had not been warned about it I would have felt that my girl Jazz was going to be a lovely seal or sable brown when she was mature. At two is actually about when the grey starts to come in. Look at her ear edges next time she is and see if there are signs of lighter grey hairs on them.


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

Hmmm the pics may be misleading, she shouldn't LOOK blue at all, seen in the flesh she is a definite chocolate brown except for the greyish muzzle, I'll have a look from my pc later, she's a hard colour to photograph I thought I finally had it but it may just be the laptop.
I would have expected her to fade further by now if she was going to, between one and two she was different every groom, between two and three she hasn't changed at all, has anyone had a blue that took such a long time to show any change? 
She also hasn't had the same reddish tinge as the other blues I've seen. Kit for example currently has a definite red tinge visible in the sunlight, this girl never had that she just went straight from black to brown.


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

Ok those photos are no good at all, she looks blue to me in those pics too, even her collar which is actually fluorescent orange is washed out, I don't know if it's my camera or just her but I cannot get an accurate colour pic.
I guess I'll just have to wait another year and see. 
I suspect she is going to prove the experts wrong though and do the impossible.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Anntig said:


> I guess I'll just have to wait another year and see.
> I suspect she is going to prove the experts wrong though and do the impossible.


No, she genetically cannot turn brown.... But her coat may have a brown hue. Lots of blues take a while to change.

She has a black nose so no matter what you see to the eye she cannot be brown.

Also, most blues that I've seen look like a dark brown. The reddish tinge tends to happen to all black coats that get sunburnt.


----------



## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

Anntig said:


> *Ok those photos are no good at all, she looks blue to me in those pics too, even her collar which is actually fluorescent orange is washed out, I don't know if it's my camera or just her but I cannot get an accurate colour pic.*
> I guess I'll just have to wait another year and see.
> I suspect she is going to prove the experts wrong though and do the impossible.


Welcome to color management. The only way to know what you are seeing on your monitor is actually what was in front of the camera it to calibrate your monitor to industry standards, know and understand color spaces and color profiles. The kick it the teeth is even after you do all that, those that look at your pictures on uncalibrated monitors in improper viewing conditions will see something very different than what you see. Isn't color management awesome? :argh:

BTW if the collar is fluorescent then it's what we would call "out of gamut" for the color space you're using

Rick

Rick


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I watched a blue dog change from black to brown to blue. When she was brown everyone thought she was a brown except her muzzle was gray and her nose was black. It took over three years for her to lose most of the brown and even now at 5 she still has some brown highlights.


----------



## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Gorgeous!!! 

If she is young she could be a silver? If she's like 4 years old or older I'd say she is a blue


----------



## Siskojan (Mar 13, 2011)

I think you'll have to wait and see what surprises the mystery poodle has in store. Sisko will be 6 in October and he has continued to change, he is a blue brindle who has gotten darker and darker. He was born light silver with blue stripes and developed red/ apricot highlights, they are mostly all gone, still has some in his tail and muzzle. His dad is a cream/ white parti, his Mom a blue whose coat, when long, has silver tips. Sisko does not look anything at all like he did as a pup


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

CharismaticMillie said:


> No, she genetically cannot turn brown.... But her coat may have a brown hue. Lots of blues take a while to change.
> 
> She has a black nose so no matter what you see to the eye she cannot be brown.
> 
> Also, most blues that I've seen look like a dark brown. The reddish tinge tends to happen to all black coats that get sunburnt.


Hmmm never a good idea to be so adamant when this branch of science is not yet fully understood, as yet no one has been able to map any of the relevant fading genes, we say there’s a silver gene, a greying gene, and a dilution gene (which technically produces born blues or isabellas only not fading ones) but they’re theoretical only, we haven’t identified them yet and can only guess at how they work from the results we see in breeding.

Interestingly the havanese breeders recognise a colour called havanna brown which presents as black in puppies but chocolate brown with black points as adults.

A dog that (consistently) looks like a brown is still a brown even if genetically it’s not bb.
I’m not saying definitively that’s what this girl is but given that her transition has not been consistent with any of the blues I’ve seen or read about (although several posters have mentioned that they’ve seen slow transitions none have said they’ve seen a transition that completely halted for a year and then started fading again) the possibility remains that she may not be blue.

the reddish tint in Kit is unlikely to be a result of sunburn in a true black, given that it's still winter over here and we haven't seen much sun in the last year it is however typical of the black pups I've seen that later turned blue.

Thank you to everyone for your input I will just have to wait and see what happens and in the meantime try to get a more accurate pic


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

PoodleRick said:


> Welcome to color management. The only way to know what you are seeing on your monitor is actually what was in front of the camera it to calibrate your monitor to industry standards, know and understand color spaces and color profiles. The kick it the teeth is even after you do all that, those that look at your pictures on uncalibrated monitors in improper viewing conditions will see something very different than what you see. Isn't color management awesome? :argh:
> 
> BTW if the collar is fluorescent then it's what we would call "out of gamut" for the color space you're using
> 
> ...


Lol most of that went right over my head, I suspect the issue is with my camera as people have said before that they see blue in my adult dogs who are very definitely black
(Edited because it posted before I finished typing)
Kit and Cas in my sig both show a blue tinge which is not present in real life,


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Anntig said:


> Hmmm never a good idea to be so adamant when this branch of science is not yet fully understood, as yet no one has been able to map any of the relevant fading genes, we say there’s a silver gene, a greying gene, and a dilution gene (which technically produces born blues or isabellas only not fading ones) but they’re theoretical only, we haven’t identified them yet and can only guess at how they work from the results we see in breeding.
> 
> Interestingly the havanese breeders recognise a colour called havanna brown which presents as black in puppies but chocolate brown with black points as adults.
> 
> ...


You're right that there's a lot we don't know yet. Like you said, the genes responsible for clearing coat colors in poodles haven't been identified yet. One thing we do know is that a solid black poodle can't turn brown. In poodles, brown is a solid color and is defined as being bb. If the dog doesn't test bb, it doesn't matter what your eyes consistently see, it isn't brown. Also realize that coat color is not defined the same across breeds. What is a genetically brown poodle would be a red in some breeds. 

Probably, your dog is a late clearing blue or just a crappy blue that isn't going to clear to a nice color. It happens. Or, your dog could possibly have an agouti pattern - possibly even brindle. But your dog is not brown.


----------



## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Anntig said:


> (...)
> Interestingly the havanese breeders recognise a colour called havanna brown which presents as black in puppies but chocolate brown with black points as adults.
> 
> (...)


And in horses (famously in Icelandic horsers and less famously in other breeds with profuse winter coat, especially) blacks can fade to a ruddy brown due to sunlight, sweat, chafing... Solid blacks are genetically unable to produce a single brown hair, and true enough, each coat change comes in dark and black. Then after a while the eumelanine has accumulated enough damage to look brown.

I wonder if fading "bad blacks" in both dogs and horses are caused by a sneaky extra factor that determines how vulnerable the produced black pigment is to such things as sunlight... And perhaps if the Poodle hair type has anything to do with it.


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

CharismaticMillie said:


> You're right that there's a lot we don't know yet. Like you said, the genes responsible for clearing coat colors in poodles haven't been identified yet. One thing we do know is that a solid black poodle can't turn brown. In poodles, brown is a solid color and is defined as being bb. If the dog doesn't test bb, it doesn't matter what your eyes consistently see, it isn't brown. Also realize that coat color is not defined the same across breeds. What is a genetically brown poodle would be a red in some breeds.
> 
> Probably, your dog is a late clearing blue or just a crappy blue that isn't going to clear to a nice color. It happens. Or, your dog could possibly have an agouti pattern - possibly even brindle. But your dog is not brown.


Unless we are speaking strictly in genetic terms brown is a colour not a genetic designation, if a dogs colour is brown and remains brown throughout most of its adult life it must therefore be a brown even if it is not genetically a bb.
She shows no evidence of brindleing (if that’s a word) in her coat, agouti is a possibility especially since her mother’s a sable but if the end result is a solid dark chocolate what do we call it? Blue is not appropriate nor is black, so unless we want to adopt Havana brown or dog forbid chocolate as a recognised colour, brown seems the best designation, of course this is mostly theoretical at this point as the colour is so rare in poodles (rare but not unheard of) but then again more and more people are breeding coloured dogs so it may become more common in the future.


If we are speaking in genetic terms then most blues shouldn’t be called blue but rather blacks with a silvering gene, true blues are born blue they don’t fade 
But we call them blue because that’s the colour they look like even if it’s not genetically accurate


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

peccan said:


> I wonder if fading "bad blacks" in both dogs and horses are caused by a sneaky extra factor that determines how vulnerable the produced black pigment is to such things as sunlight... And perhaps if the Poodle hair type has anything to do with it.


entirely possible, you can change the colour of a cats coat by denying it certain nutrients from black to brown and back to black I've seen it many times when I worked in rescue, fever coat is another extreme example of coat colour change that's affected by other factors, it eventually grows out into the natural colour though.
Bad black is generally differentiated from fading black as fading dogs generally fade to another solid colour such as blue or silver which oddly enough although they look slightly bleached when young don't carry that tendancy into the final coat colour.
whereas a bad black tends to be one that either grizzles early or always retains that bleached look.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Anntig said:


> Unless we are speaking strictly in genetic terms brown is a colour not a genetic designation, if a dogs colour is brown and remains brown throughout most of its adult life it must therefore be a brown even if it is not genetically a bb.
> She shows no evidence of brindleing (if that’s a word) in her coat, agouti is a possibility especially since her mother’s a sable but if the end result is a solid dark chocolate what do we call it? Blue is not appropriate nor is black, so unless we want to adopt Havana brown or dog forbid chocolate as a recognised colour, brown seems the best designation, of course this is mostly theoretical at this point as the colour is so rare in poodles (rare but not unheard of) but then again more and more people are breeding coloured dogs so it may become more common in the future.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, both. I refer to poodle colors based on genetics and definition within the breed. Blue in other breeds is "born blue", but in poodles it's a name given to a black that clears. A blue is genetically black. If a poodle doesn't genetically test as a black, it wouldn't be called a blue. Solid black vs solid brown poodle coat color is very basic genetics and being one excludes the other. That doesn't mean that weird things can't happen to the coat to make it appear funky. But I define a dog's color by what 
they test for genetically. According to our breed standard, the dog you posted a photo of would not be a brown because the nose is black. A brown poodle must have a brown nose (genetically speaking and according to the standard.) Since a black nose means that a poodle is not genetically brown, the dog is not brown. Of course, you are free choose any color name you want. 

As far as bad black vs fading black - many would consider it the same thing. A non inky black.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

There is still a lot unknown about color genetics - my toy poodle breeder recently had an apricot puppy with jet black point born from a silver breeding!


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Tiny Poodles said:


> There is still a lot unknown about color genetics - my toy poodle breeder recently had an apricot puppy with jet black point born from a silver breeding!


Well that's not too far out there! . Possible at least.


----------



## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Sometimes when I look at Dulcie, I see a brownish hue especially on her legs. Is this a trick of the light or could she be beginning to clear to blue? Her mother appeared to be a blue and her sire was a black who only carried black and brown genes. Her breeder said she is definitely black back when I was discussing color with her. And her breeder is very experienced.

If she is certainly black - what would account for the brownish hue I can see in her legs? Just puppy coat changes? I have looked between her toes and don't see any white hairs at all. Ditto on her face.

ETA It doesn't matter to me either way. I love an inky black coat and I also love blues. I am just curious.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

nifty said:


> Sometimes when I look at Dulcie, I see a brownish hue especially on her legs. Is this a trick of the light or could she be beginning to clear to blue? Her mother appeared to be a blue and her sire was a black who only carried black and brown genes. Her breeder said she is definitely black back when I was discussing color with her. And her breeder is very experienced.
> 
> If she is certainly black - what would account for the brownish hue I can see in her legs? Just puppy coat changes? I have looked between her toes and don't see any white hairs at all. Ditto on her face.
> 
> ETA It doesn't matter to me either way. I love an inky black coat and I also love blues. I am just curious.


This is normal. It happens to blacks and blues. Puppy coat fades and burns easily.


----------



## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Interesting! Thank you, CM! SO, she is likely a black as her breeder said and just has a little sunburn in her coat? I must say, most of the time she is inky black all over - including her face. I really notice the brownish tint out in the sun, not so much other times.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

nifty said:


> Interesting! Thank you, CM! SO, she is likely a black as her breeder said and just has a little sunburn in her coat? I must say, most of the time she is inky black all over - including her face. I really notice the brownish tint out in the sun, not so much other times.


Yes. Black coat tends to get bleached out by the sun easily - especially puppy coat. There's a reason why black show dogs aren't supposed to spend too much time in the sun....and why there are black enhancing shampoos for when they do spend time in the sun  My personal favorite: Pure Paws Black Magic. 

If her face is inky black, she's black and not blue.


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

So CM what would you call a cream with brown pigment, something that is understood genetically but not allowed for in the breed standard?


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

This is Lula. She shows some signs that she could be blue, but she may just be a bad black. She doesn't really have blues in her pedigree, but then again there's a lot of unknowns with the Scandinavian line in her pedigree. Her face is dark blue and her topknot brown. Her legs are brownish but it's just from sunburn. Her mom, black, has legs that turn brown from sun or what have you when I grow them out. Time will tell if she clears to blue, but my guess is that she may not. Still, if she does, it wouldn't be a surprise either.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Anntig said:


> So CM what would you call a cream with brown pigment, something that is understood genetically but not allowed for in the breed standard?


It would be a cream with brown pigment. bbee. The dog is genetically brown with e causing the coat to be cream instead. It's a fault according to the breed standard. The dog wouldn't do well in the show ring!

http://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color-b.html


----------



## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Anntig said:


> So CM what would you call a cream with brown pigment, something that is understood genetically but not allowed for in the breed standard?


I'm not CM but I'd call it liver cream or cream w/ liver points. I know there are people who call it "white chocolate" tho... but that's not too clear IMO. Peeps do love their romantic names but colours are hard enough to understand without names such as "antique whisper", "afternoon calm" or "autumn tweed"... (Btw I so totally had certain colourations in mind... Each one is possible in poodles but not acceptable for the show ring. 10 points and a gold star for anyone who gets one right :biggrin


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

CharismaticMillie said:


> It would be a cream with brown pigment. bbee. The dog is genetically brown with e causing the coat to be cream instead. It's a fault according to the breed standard. The dog wouldn't do well in the show ring!
> 
> VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Canine - List of Services - Coat Color - Coat Color Chart B


I'm sorry, don't mean to be rude but I just don't understand your thinking I can see three logical possibilities

a) a person follows breed standard and use only those colours that are recognised
b) a person follows scientific method and use the colours both discovered and hypothesised
c) a person follows practical method and use the colours as they appear 

All three methods contradict each other and so are not complimentary yet you seem to pick and choose which of the first two methods suits your argument while totally denying the third, which I find incomprehensible, am I wrong is there a fourth method I don't see?


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

peccan said:


> I'm not CM but I'd call it liver cream or cream w/ liver points. I know there are people who call it "white chocolate" tho... but that's not too clear IMO. Peeps do love their romantic names but colours are hard enough to understand without names such as "antique whisper", "afternoon calm" or "autumn tweed"... (Btw I so totally had certain colourations in mind... Each one is possible in poodles but not acceptable for the show ring. 10 points and a gold star for anyone who gets one right :biggrin


autumn tweed sounds like a good description for sable, antique whisper sounds like a light phantom maybe red/apricot or a brindle, afternoon calm I don't know I just get a picture of a sky blue poodle being booted out of the ring


----------



## Lisa75 (Jul 16, 2014)

I would say without a doubt she is a blue. My blue boy was very dark until he cleared seemingly overnight at age 4.


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

nifty said:


> Sometimes when I look at Dulcie, I see a brownish hue especially on her legs. Is this a trick of the light or could she be beginning to clear to blue? Her mother appeared to be a blue and her sire was a black who only carried black and brown genes. Her breeder said she is definitely black back when I was discussing color with her. And her breeder is very experienced.
> 
> If she is certainly black - what would account for the brownish hue I can see in her legs? Just puppy coat changes? I have looked between her toes and don't see any white hairs at all. Ditto on her face.
> 
> ETA It doesn't matter to me either way. I love an inky black coat and I also love blues. I am just curious.


Depends how old she is, she could really go either way if you're in the middle of summer, the blues I know had very black faces for the first year or so, it was only in the longer areas that you could see the reddish bleaching.

Interestingly I've had two new clients with "black" pups (littermates) come in recently both of whom are showing a red tint, very unusual in winter here, it'll be interesting to see how they develop, their grandsire on both sides is a US import whose lines I'm not particularly famliar with.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Anntig said:


> I'm sorry, don't mean to be rude but I just don't understand your thinking I can see three logical possibilities
> 
> a) a person follows breed standard and use only those colours that are recognised
> b) a person follows scientific method and use the colours both discovered and hypothesised
> ...


To be frank, I don't understand your thinking either. First, the breed standard tells us what colors are *called* in the breed. A lab is chocolate, a poodle is brown. Then, there are the genetics behind the colors. Some things are genetically possible, some are not possible, and some things aren't known very well. A brown poodle is "bb". A black poodle is "Bb or BB." A dog that is genetically solid black can not produce brown pigment and vice versa. It's basic and very well understood by the experts. If we can't agree on the two above points, we aren't going to be on the same page.

Back to the previous scenario, a cream poodle with black pigment is genetically black but with recessive "ee" causing an otherwise black dog to be cream. In poodles, this is called a cream. In labs, it would be called yellow. A cream poodle with brown pigment is genetically brown but with recessive "ee". 

A cream poodle with brown pigment is genetically possible but a major fault in the show ring. A solid brown poodle with black pigment is genetically impossible.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Nifty, black vs blue can be difficult because they can't be differentiated from each other genetically. To make things even more complicated, not everyone agrees on where the line is drawn between a faded black and a blue. Sometimes a puppy that has a blue face as a puppy never clears to blue and sometimes a puppy with a dark face might still clear to blue. I would listen to what your breeder says in regard to Dulcie's color. She knows her lines better than any of us here.


----------



## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks CM, for all the helpful information about genetics. I understand that I was confused about her sire, too. He is a black and I guess when the breeder said he COULD have black or brown puppies that depended on what mixture of genes the dam contributes, right? 

If Dulcie's dam is blue (I don't know if blue or a faded black, although she was only 4 years old and beautiful by the way no matter what color she is) then is it a matter of a fading gene? And if so, would both parents have to carry it? 

I have confidence that the breeder really knows her lines - she has been doing it for decades and is a vet to boot. It will be fun to see as time goes on, although I am inclined to believe that your hypothesis about the sunlight is correct - we were at the beach a couple of weeks ago after all!


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

nifty said:


> Thanks CM, for all the helpful information about genetics. I understand that I was confused about her sire, too. He is a black and I guess when the breeder said he COULD have black or brown puppies that depended on what mixture of genes the dam contributes, right?
> 
> If Dulcie's dam is blue (I don't know if blue or a faded black, although she was only 4 years old and beautiful by the way no matter what color she is) then is it a matter of a fading gene? And if so, would both parents have to carry it?
> 
> I have confidence that the breeder really knows her lines - she has been doing it for decades and is a vet to boot. It will be fun to see as time goes on, although I am inclined to believe that your hypothesis about the sunlight is correct - we were at the beach a couple of weeks ago after all!


Yes, Reilly is black and carries a brown gene. If bred to another dog carrying a brown gene, he could produce brown. . Brown is recessive, so a "b" gene must come from each parent in order for a puppy to be brown. As far as what genes are responsible for blues and other clearing colors, the genes haven't been mapped so we don't know for sure exactly what's involved - but those who are experienced in blues and silvers tend to have a pretty good idea of what to expect in their own lines. But without having the genes mapped, it's just theories and scientific guesses!


----------

