# Help with Toy Poodle breeders: wind song poodles



## Hooked on Poodles (May 27, 2021)

Hello!
I am new to PF. I am searching for a small toy poodle to add to my family. This will be my second toy poodle. I lost my beloved ChiChi this past winter. The hole in my heart is huge.
I definitely want to purchase my next dog from a reputable breeder.
Does anyone have experience with Wind Song Poodles? Could you please tell me whether you’d recommend getting a puppy from there? Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks 😊


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## Hooked on Poodles (May 27, 2021)

I forgot to mention... I am in upstate New York and would really appreciate Toy breeder recommendations. I am willing to travel - ideally no more than 5 hours driving.
THANKS IN ADVANCE! 



Hooked on Poodles said:


> Hello!
> I am new to PF. I am searching for a small toy poodle to add to my family. This will be my second toy poodle. I lost my beloved ChiChi this past winter. The hole in my heart is huge.
> I definitely want to purchase my next dog from a reputable breeder.
> Does anyone have experience with Wind Song Poodles? Could you please tell me whether you’d recommend getting a puppy from there? Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
> Thanks 😊


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Hello and welcome! I'll leave the rest to the experts


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and welcome!

I'm not familiar with that kennel but there are some things I've found online and on the site that suggest looking into her further might be worthwhile if you know what risks you are willing to accept and can plan accordingly. I believe that she loves the poodles and knows her line but I see things lacking that I personally expect. 
I'm surprised to see her mentioning the term "teacup" and giving guidelines for size even as she notes that it's not an official term. 
What gives me greatest pause is that there is no mention of any health testing done on the poodles she breeds. Every purebred dog, and every variety of those breeds have the possibility of heritable diseases and conditions which vary in how much they might affect the life of the poodle and their family. (This holds for cross breeds and mixed breeds too.)

This is what I expect to see as a minimum bar for health testing:

From OFA 

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test*
DNA based test from an approved laboratory ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚

There are other genetic panels which are companion testing to the OFA list and in the case of the PRA test, is a duplicate. This is what one lab suggests:


Click the test name to learn more *Degenerative Myelopathy*
*Aliases:* Canine degenerative myelopathy, DM*Osteochondrodysplasia*
*Aliases:* Skeletal dwarfism, OCD*Progressive Retinal Atrophy, Progressive Rod-Cone Degeneration*
*Aliases:* PRA-PRCD, PRCD*Progressive Retinal Atrophy, Rod-Cone Dysplasia 4*
*Aliases:* PRA-rcd4
*Toy Poodle Supplemental Panel*

Select Panel*Best Price!* Select this panel for only *$150.00*
_A $160.00 value_Why add this panel?
Why are panels discounted?

Click the test name to learn more*Multidrug Resistance 1*
*Aliases:* Ivermectin sensitivity, MDR1 gene defect, Multidrug sensitivity, MDR1*Von Willebrand Disease I*
*Aliases:* Pseudohemophilia, Vascular hemophilia, von Willebrand disease type 1, von Willebrand's disease, VWDI
*Disease Tests
Additional Disease Tests for Toy Poodle*

Click the test name to learn more*Chondrodystrophy (CDDY and IVDD Risk) with or without Chondrodysplasia (CDPA)*
*Aliases:* CDDY with IVDD, CDPA, Hansen's Type I IVDD, Intervertebral Disc Disease*GM2 Gangliosidosis (Poodle Type)*
*Aliases:* Sandhoff disease, Type 0 gangliosidosis*Hereditary Cataracts*
*Aliases:* Early onset cataracts, Juvenile cataracts, HC, JC*Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures*
*Aliases:* NEWS



Addl info on her
Jude Iaconianni - Grand River Kennel Club


I'm sorry to hear of ChiChi's passing. This heartbreak is the price of loving them. 

Since it sounds like it might have been a while since you looked for a poodle, I'm adding some tips, some things to consider, and some things to avoid for you. 

We often hear from folks that they just want a pet. What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the kind of quality, conscientious breeders I prefer to support are _always_ breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions, but are flawless to us .

About reviews, a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance. Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet". Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. There are also poodle specific DNA panels for those testable conditions. Those are companion testing with the OFA/CHIC testing.
Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

Read thru any contracts that may be listed. If they rule out coverage for conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021-2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.

When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.
Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies. That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years.

Temperament and personality are lifelong traits.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".


An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of *___* (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my short version personal criteria:

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred.


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Be extremely cautious of puppies sold thru pet stores, or online marketplaces like puppyspot, puppyfind, kijiji, craigslist, classified ads, etc. Many of these puppies will be mill puppies and while you may get lucky, the odds are against you and that sweet puppy. Finding a breeder in the AKC marketplace isn't an automatic guarantee of them being a quality breeder, but should, at a minimum, mean they are selling pups who may be registered with the AKC.

One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles. That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

there is a wait list on toy breeders until at least 2022 on my favorite breeders
Rodell's in CT I got my boy in 2017
Silverbirch in Hamilton NY
these tick all my boxes of appropriate health testing and doing something with their dogs other than making puppies


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## Hooked on Poodles (May 27, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi and welcome!
> ......
> Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time



Oops! I definitely missed your note about NOT asking all these questions at the same time! 😆


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## Hooked on Poodles (May 27, 2021)

I did get some more info from Jude at Wind Song Poodles. She told me she does NOT do health testing but would stop breeding a dog/pair if any health issues develop. To me this is unacceptable. Couldn't there be untold numbers of dogs affected negatively if a breeding dog _later_ developed symptoms of a disease that could have been detected long before breeding? 
So, Wind Song is off my list. I have been in touch with another breeder: Gina Bryan of Going Poodles. She does genetic testing on all her dogs, has a pup who matches my particular wishes and seems to be a gem of a person. I'm in contact with her about the little guy and am hopeful he could be the one for me! 😁


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