# teenage poodle behavioral woes (&/or training failures...)



## JenO (Dec 21, 2014)

I just need to vent. Dipper is 13 months old, and I have spent A LOT of time training him--way more than the average person, but I guess that's not saying much! I guess I just didn't expect so much variation in behavior...I figured if I trained hard and worked at it, he'd be good ALL THE TIME (lol!)
My problem is he's an angel about 75% of the time and a monster the rest, there is not much in between. He's highly social and I've been taking him to play with other dogs since he was tiny. However, he's VERY VERY boisterous (bouncy, biting to incite a chase, barking in other dogs faces, occasional humping) so he dishes it out, but he totally can't take it. I think he's a bully--he'll totally pummel a dog that's not into it (although he's very gentle with his play bites, they're more nudges than anything) but when a dog, esp. a big dog, gets too rough with him he snarls and snaps (but has never bitten) or if a dog snarls at him he immediately wants to meet the challenge. This is only an issue at our local dog park, which is always a crap shoot anyway and I think I'm just going to stop taking him...although I wish I could find a dog that would be able to sort of show Dipper his place without escalating to snapping and snarling. I just feel like he's a very ill-mannered teenage puppy and I don't know how to make him otherwise at this point. So with that background, he almost got in a fight at the dog park this evening (I kind of broke it up and had someone grab Dipper and I took him home, no real bites were exchanged but it seemed to be escalating) and then when I got home our older neighbor (in his 70s) came by with a package and Dipper barked his head off, ran out the front door, and started jumping up and play biting at the neighbor. I was mortified. I couldn't grab Dipper quickly enough so he got to do a short "victory lap" racing around the yard, then I yelled INSIDE! and he went in the door and I just shut him in the house while I apologized to the neighbor (he totally didn't care, Dipper didn't actually hurt him, but still!)
I've done so much work with this dog--we're on our 4th or 5th obedience class, take drop in classes frequently, train for rally, and are taking the CGC soon...but sometimes I just feel like a failure!  Anyway, tips or general commiseration are greatly appreciated!
Cheers,
Jen


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Know the feeling my Cayenne is a bully, but she will run right up to a dogs face and bark, and growl, but run and get behind me before the other dog realizes what happened. It scares me as she is only 3.2 lbs and she will one day mess with the wrong dog. By the way these dogs are coming to visit at our house. I actually carry her to the door when someone comes, and say see the baby , nice baby. The smallest dog visiting is 8 pounds


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Oh, I hear you, Jen! I am semi-retired and have a lot of time to train Dulcie. We walk every day about 2 miles and spend time playing and working on obedience skills every day. Like you, I sort of expected that she would be really well-behaved by about 18 months, and she is about 80% of the time. Maybe even more than 80%. But damn, that 20%! 

We have been working on loose leash walking since she came home at just over 8 weeks. It took a long time. Now she is reliable about 85% of the time non walks, yet I STILL have moments when she lunges ahead briefly (i.e., when a bike messenger whisks up onto the sidewalk to make a delivery too close to us). She doesn't like bikes or other wheeled things on the sidewalks at all. She had a very scary experience at about 8 or 9 months old and it seems to have stuck with her. Usually, if I am alert and can anticipate the thing coming, I can take measures to prevent her startled reaction, but if I don't see them coming, she will lunge toward the bike. Ugh.

The thing is, in most every other respect, she has developed nicely into a virtually "bomb proof" dog. Buses and trains, tractors and jackhammers, thunder and lightning, sirens, even loud sudden crashes (i.e. truck tailgates crashing down at a construction site as we walk past) -- these things don't faze her. But a bike or scooter on the sidewalk -- that is NOT RIGHT in DUlcie's world.

At the dog park,she is usually fine with the other dogs and enjoys socializing with them. However, if there is a ball in the park and Dulcie has decided it is going to be hers for the day, then other dogs had better back off. She will gruffly bark at them to warn them off. Luckily, she doesn't actually attack the other dogs (if that ever happened we would not go back). If another dog chases the ball with her and gets there first, she simply pulls back and then keeps an eye on him and when he drops the ball she is there to pick it up. Still,I don't like the barking at the other dogs over the ball. Play barking doesn't bother me - she doesn't do it as mush as some other dogs and I notice owners try to hush their dogs, but I think that is OK at a dog park. Dogs bark when excited. 

I try to remind myself that she is a living creature with her own desires and ideas about what she wants to do. I realized I had an unrealistic idea that a fully trained dog would be completely 100% under voice control all the time. That just isn't possible with another living creature. It may just be that 80-90% reliable is the best we can hope for.


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## JenO (Dec 21, 2014)

ah thank you! both those replies made me feel better, and Dulcie sounds a lot like Dipper (although it is easier here than I imagine it would be in Chicago, we don't have city traffic, etc....) 
For Dipper it's cats. There's one that hangs out in our yard that seems to belong to no one, and it is his sworn enemy. When we see loose cats on our walks, all bets are off! Skateboards were bad for awhile, now better. 
Of course I want him to be "perfect" all the time, but it's a good reminder that yes, they have personalities....and they will do what they want sometimes!
As a PERFECT example of the 75/25 behavior dynamic, today (after jumping on the neighbor and almost picking a fight at the dog park) we went to our last CGC class. I didn't think we were ready and had decided that we would try the test (only $10) and consider it practice only. Somehow, we passed! I guess he was tired from all his earlier shenanigans (and I did take him on a 5 mile hike earlier in the day to tire him out). I guess the best we can do is focus on the successes and try to train for the things we want...and work on the things we don't like as much we can. SIGH! I imagine most things will get much better within a few years, too. Puppies!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

nifty said:


> Oh, I hear you, Jen! I am semi-retired and have a lot of time to train Dulcie. We walk every day about 2 miles and spend time playing and working on obedience skills every day. Like you, I sort of expected that she would be really well-behaved by about 18 months, and she is about 80% of the time. Maybe even more than 80%. But damn, that 20%!
> 
> We have been working on loose leash walking since she came home at just over 8 weeks. It took a long time. Now she is reliable about 85% of the time non walks, yet I STILL have moments when she lunges ahead briefly (i.e., when a bike messenger whisks up onto the sidewalk to make a delivery too close to us). She doesn't like bikes or other wheeled things on the sidewalks at all. She had a very scary experience at about 8 or 9 months old and it seems to have stuck with her. Usually, if I am alert and can anticipate the thing coming, I can take measures to prevent her startled reaction, but if I don't see them coming, she will lunge toward the bike. Ugh.
> 
> ...



Sorry, but I have to disagree - I had 100% once, and it was glorious! I hope that I will have it again, it won't be Timi, Timi will never get better than 90%, maybe even 95, but maybe if my breeder can give me every little thing on my wish list, I can have 100% with the next one. I hope so, it is my dream to have that one more time.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

And JenO, it did take Timi until close to 2 years old to reach around 90% Her first heat marked a huge change, she settled tremendously.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think that you deserve congratulations for getting to 75% perfect with an adolescent! I remember the first time Sophy gave me the "I'm busy!" look - fortunately she had only a brief adolescent phase, but it was intense. At one point she took herself off down the busy road on a visit to a neighbouring terrier, something she has never done before or since, and she seemed to forget practically everything she had ever learned in terms of recall and other cues. Then the brain rewired itself, the hormones calmed down, communication was reestablished, and things improved rapidly. I think with an adolescent you have to expect regression and work on it as you would with a very young puppy - lots of happy experiences, short bursts of training, very high reward rates, etc etc. I usually have a few dry biscuits in my pocket to reward really good behaviour on walks - for a while I carried a bag of chicken and used it liberally! And remember - this too shall pass...


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

Give it time Jen. You said it, he's a teenager. Sounds like you are doing very well with him.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Let's not overlook that Dipper got his CGC! Congratulations!


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Quot: Sorry, but I have to disagree - I had 100% once, and it was glorious! 

I have had 2 with 100% Tina and Bella, and your right it is wonderful, Cayenne will never make it past 90%, but that is OK I know that and adjusted for it.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Congratulations Dipper and Jen!! Now you know that he certainly IS learning and maturing! Well done!


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## JenO (Dec 21, 2014)

Mfmst said:


> Let's not overlook that Dipper got his CGC! Congratulations!


Thank you! I am very proud of him for that, I honestly thought we had maybe a 50/50 chance and was expecting to have to retake it next time around. We will keep working on all the other things, and hopefully in a couple years he'll be close to the "perfect" dog I want him to be (although don't get me wrong--I love him to pieces and he is a good boy--he tries!)


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## Axeldog (Aug 29, 2014)

Congratulations to you and Dipper on obtaining his CGC! Good job!


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Major congrats on the CGC!!! You should feel very proud of yourselves for that! :clap2:

He sounds like a typical adolescent standard poodle. I would personally not judge him based on the dog park. Some dogs are just not "made" for the dog park. That I feel is more his personality than a training issue. It is hard to train a dog to interact and play nicely with other dogs we do not speak their language. You can train him in that every time he is a bully he will have a leashed time out or leave. You can train him to ignore other dogs and not react aggressively by counter conditioning. Its hard to teach play manners though.
My dog Draco can have great days at the park where he plays nicely with other dogs, and other days where he seems to cause trouble with other dogs. Draco is ball crazy, and we always bring a ball which will immediately distract him from other dogs and avoid trouble. We mainly go to the park to run him with the ball as it is a huge park, and we don't have a yard for running like that.

I would judge him more on how he interacts with you, listens to you, and has manners and respect. Its so great that you are continuing to go to classes and work on your bond! Keep doing that and he will continue to thrive, and all of your hard work will pay off into your best companion!

Sounds like you might want to work on door dashing though so the neighbor incident wont happen. Also, maybe brush up on recall in stimulating environments/situations.


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## JenO (Dec 21, 2014)

bigpoodleperson said:


> Major congrats on the CGC!!! You should feel very proud of yourselves for that! :clap2:
> 
> He sounds like a typical adolescent standard poodle. I would personally not judge him based on the dog park. Some dogs are just not "made" for the dog park. That I feel is more his personality than a training issue. It is hard to train a dog to interact and play nicely with other dogs we do not speak their language. You can train him in that every time he is a bully he will have a leashed time out or leave. You can train him to ignore other dogs and not react aggressively by counter conditioning. Its hard to teach play manners though.
> My dog Draco can have great days at the park where he plays nicely with other dogs, and other days where he seems to cause trouble with other dogs. Draco is ball crazy, and we always bring a ball which will immediately distract him from other dogs and avoid trouble. We mainly go to the park to run him with the ball as it is a huge park, and we don't have a yard for running like that.
> ...


Thank you! Yes, I feel like he does really well with one-on-one play dates but gets a little over-amped in a big group. I had previously given up on the dog park for that and a couple other reasons (it's just too unpredictable, clueless owners bring aggressive dogs, etc). It's so funny the different personalities...Dipper will play fetch with a ball when it's just me, but you couldn't get him to even look at a ball when there's another dog around. I'm sure that could change as he gets older but who knows. 

We definitely still need to work on recall with distraction and that might be my next "project"...always trying to incorporate it into walks and stuff but I think I need to be more focused about it. Door dashing also needs proofing! We have a fenced yard so I haven't been so strict about it, but it's a safety thing for the future too. He's so good in the classroom, but the real world is so much more complicated


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