# so...tell me about showing/breeding



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Standard Poodles are one of the HARDEST breeds of dogs to show. The grooming requirements are extreme and the expectations for structure, movement and type are pretty specific. A lot of people think they want to show Poodles but they are totally unprepared for the realities of the sport.

My advice would be to apprentice yourself with a big name owner handler to see what it is really like. Where do you live?


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

knightrider said:


> Also...how do all these designer breeds start up when I see so many poodle breeders wiht specific spay neuter contracts? I would think that would be limited, but its the new thing (and no..not thinking of that, just mulling the puppy contracts)


Limited registration puts the brakes on some unauthorized poodle/poodle breeding because the puppies are unregistrable with AKC, and thus less marketable. But it doesn't put any brakes on doodle breeding because doodles aren't registrable with AKC anyway. My breeder had a clause in her contract with monetary damages due with any unauthorized litter. I don't know how common it is, or how enforceable. 

The whole doodle thing has only increased breeder paranoia about selling a puppy with full registration. Most reputable breeders will want to co-own until you have finished the dog/bitch and completed testing. 

Just to complicate things, most breeders are reluctant to sell you a show prospect unless you can convince them that you can keep coat.


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## knightrider (Sep 13, 2010)

So...are there reputable breeders out there who don't have show dogs? It seems like the ones with good reputations have shown their dogs, gotten the proper testing done, etc...

As far as show coat...yeah, I guess thats out the window for me - something I hadn't thought of for the long term. I have my dogs with me at the farm and its almost impossible to keep them clean...

So, I guess actually trying to breed poodles would be out then? Or can you develop a good reputation and not show your dogs in the ring? What about agility dogs? They wouldn't require the same upkeep with coats...My current dog is starting some agility shortly and I wouldn't mind pursuing that option...

I just don't want to be classified as a non reputable breeder if I were attempt it...and right now, I'm simply exploring options...I'm not ready to do anything and will not until I understand the implications of what I'm getting myself into.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I think reputable breeders PROVE their dogs in some way. I think this can be done via performance as well as conformation showing. 

For me, the value of conformation showing is learning the ins and outs of structure, movement and type. The value of showing in performance is learning the ins and outs of temperament, work ethic and working style.

The problem with not showing in conformation is that high quality breeders are not going to sell you a breeding bitch. Most breeders, if they will sell you a breeding quality bitch at all, will require that you finish the bitch before breeding it. You may find a breeder out there who will sell you a breeding bitch if you agree to put a certain level performance title on it, but that breeder would be the exception. 

On top of this, if you don't show, many high quality studs will not be available to you. I've found that people who have worked hard to breed show quality Poodles want to make sure that they are working with other breeders who have similar goals and values. I have heard more than one stud dog owner say that they don't breed to unfinished bitches. Heck, when I was 1st breeding Sabrina (who was a CH and had a CD), I got turned down by two well known breeders who simply did not like my girl's line! There are stud dog owners who will breed to bitches based on performance titles but again, they are going to be harder to find. 

I guess I should ask, why do you want to breed Poodles? What are you hoping to get out of it? What animals have you bred to date?


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

Depending on where you are you could always cross register or get a UKC registered dog. They allow showing in the sporting clip which is much easier to upkeep.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

true... (UKC requirements)

However, the difference in quality between an animal that can CH in UKC and one that can CH in AKC is often quite different.

:doh:

Now this should turn into a 23 page thread on UKC versus AKC... NOT my intention. Those with animals on either or both ciruits can clearly see the differences and it's not all politics and coat, either.

That said, MANY will not respect a UKC Ch for conformation like an AKC title is respected.

The differences in Performance titles I do not know about and can not speak to.


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

Begging your pardon if I seem a little dense but who would not respect the UKC CH if the quality of the dog is the same- just the owner hasn't spent a frotune showing with a handler? The UKC has long respresented the working dog and the Spoo is shown in the Gun Dog class where it belongs IMO. So if a dog has correct conformation why should there be a difference in the interpretation of the CH?


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

HOTW said:


> Begging your pardon if I seem a little dense but who would not respect the UKC CH if the quality of the dog is the same- just the owner hasn't spent a frotune showing with a handler? The UKC has long respresented the working dog and the Spoo is shown in the Gun Dog class where it belongs IMO. So if a dog has correct conformation why should there be a difference in the interpretation of the CH?


Because if you take a look at the quality of the dogs in UKC, and the ones that have CH, you would then see why some people laugh at UKC. 
I like UKC, a great alternative to AKC, but people need to realise, in general, a CH title does not mean everything, and especially in UKC. Don't get me wrong, there are some quality dogs in UKC, like Tintlet Poodles, but when you see crap dogs all the time with UKC CH on them... it doesn't help the reputation of UKC


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

Then why not get good quality dogs int he ring to get some real competition and quality in the CH department?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

jak said:


> Because if you take a look at the quality of the dogs in UKC, and the ones that have CH, you would then see why some people laugh at UKC.
> I like UKC, a great alternative to AKC, but people need to realise, in general, a CH title does not mean everything, and especially in UKC. Don't get me wrong, there are some quality dogs in UKC, like Tintlet Poodles, but when you see crap dogs all the time with UKC CH on them... it doesn't help the reputation of UKC


I agree there are a few dogs in the top ten and they are not show quality at all IMO and some have questionable heights. 

Some states also do not have Competition like where I live no solid standards show up. Some states do have better competition, (this is when I like to see GR titles on a UKC dogs) then the CH title truly means they beat someone in the ring. The partis have a lot more going on in UKC than solid poodles. So your basically getting points because you are the only dog there when no one shows up. If you get placed in a group then thats is a little better but some times only 2 dogs show up in the ring. BIS at UKC is really good IMO also since you have to beat the well known UKC breeds at the end. ( in my area apbts win BIS usually lol ) personally I would like to see more competition against its own breed not other breeds. 

This mainly applies to the established AKC breeds. The breeds not acepted in AKC have serious competition like for ex apbt ( american pit bull terriers) at least 20 or more dogs show up in my area for UKC shows its heavy competition.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

HOTW said:


> Then why not get good quality dogs int he ring to get some real competition and quality in the CH department?


Because most of the AKC breeders rather attended shows with actual competition like there is in AKC. UKC shows are not every weekend AKC there are usually shows every weekend depending on your location. CA has so many shows and so many dogs show up hence why are point schedule is so HIGH GRRR lol I think at each AKC show I have been to the average total number of dogs is 1500 to 2000k

UKC shows in southern Ca total amount is like hmmm 80 ? or 70 its really a low number


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Do you know horses at all? I think that the difference between AKC and UKC is the difference between showing at a schooling show (UKC) and a rated A level show (AKC). Both types of shows are fun but in the end, the best quality and most talented horses are going to show at the A level. 

I can't speak for others, but I show in AKC conformation because I want to prove that my dogs are of a certain quality. After they finish their championship, I want to shave them down and move on to more interesting activities like Obedience, Agility etc. There is really no incentive for me to spend the money and continue showing in UKC conformation after my Poodles finish in AKC.


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

good comparison. I do know horses, quite well infact. My DD rides Dressage on old typ[e Morgans. I can't stand what has been done to the breed. Her trainer knows what she wants in her horses and doesn';t even look at the new type Morgans as they are not what the breed should be in her mind. Grew up next to an Arabian Stud famr and see the changes in the breed there as well so I guess the changes that I have seen int eh Std Poodle offend me just as much. Same thing with the Border Collie, JRT, more than a few breeds have grown away so raidcally from what they shoudl be. 

If a lot of the judges are the same then why are they not withholding awards from the UKC dogs the way they are enabled to? If the quality isn't there then don't give them the status. 

Kind of like how wigs and dyes are used in AKC even though they are illegal, doing it because everyone else does it is dishonest no matter how you look at it. 

As for schooling level vs A level, well a person has to start somewhere and work thru to the top, doesn't mean their horse or themselves are not able, just inexperienced. You don't just jump to the top level, it requires time, experience and a good horse to make it there as well as your own ability.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Just wanted to mention here that gaining the AKC Ch. Title does not necessarily mean that the dog is a good representative of its breed .

How many of us experienced breeder/exhibitors have had the opportunity to personally witness lack of quality being dragged in the ring weekend in and weekend out by top professional handlers who are handsomely paid to finish a dog which otherwise an owner handler would never be able to finish in a million years.

ANY dog in my opinion unless a total abomination can finish their Ch. title if shown long enough and if its owner spends a certain amount of money to finish a mediocre dog just because they want to AKC title on it.

The AKC or CKC championship is not always awarded to a dog that is worthy of the title.

In the past 16 years since I am in poodles, there have been many mediocre dogs which were and are still being shown by handlers I would not pay to finish and will strictly sell as pets not wanting my kennel prefix to represent such lack of quality. 

There are breeders out there who feel that everything they produce in a litter merits to be a champion. I am of a different opinion, I would rather keep one puppy only and of top quality and champion h/her rather than show 2-3 extra ones in the litter who are not worthy to merely put more championship titles to my kennel prefix.

But hey, this is me... not everyone thinks and does things the same way.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I don't wig dogs and I don't dye dogs and my Poodles still finish in AKC. 


RE ribbons.....Judges don't withhold ribbons because no one wants to be the bad guy and publicly humiliate a competitor. Unless a Poodle has a disqualifying fault, judges pretty much just pass out the ribbons based on what is in the ring. 



HOTW said:


> good comparison. I do know horses, quite well infact. My DD rides Dressage on old typ[e Morgans. I can't stand what has been done to the breed. Her trainer knows what she wants in her horses and doesn';t even look at the new type Morgans as they are not what the breed should be in her mind. Grew up next to an Arabian Stud famr and see the changes in the breed there as well so I guess the changes that I have seen int eh Std Poodle offend me just as much. Same thing with the Border Collie, JRT, more than a few breeds have grown away so raidcally from what they shoudl be.


Ah yes.... the perennial argument about how great things were back in the day and how we have just gotten so far from the true nature of _______ (insert breed/species here). I used to have a horse, an American Saddlebred. This horse was show bred through and through. Let me tell you how folks love to talk about how the Saddlebred has been ruined. Anyway, I don't do Saddleseat so I trained this ASB as a sporthorse. Funny thing is that even though he was a show bred Saddlebred, he had no trouble kicking ass as a Dressage horse (numerous awards and even a USDF Championship in Freestyle beating out many, many very expensive imported Warmbloods). He was also fun over the cross country course, an amazing mountain trail horse and he even worked cattle once.  I think you have to be very careful in dogs or horses to not equate modern with "bad". Also, heavy, clunky, and coarse does not necessarily = correct/better in horses or Poodles. A Poodle can be pretty, stylish, and fancy and still be a great all-around competitor. 



> As for schooling level vs A level, well a person has to start somewhere and work thru to the top, doesn't mean their horse or themselves are not able, just inexperienced. You don't just jump to the top level, it requires time, experience and a good horse to make it there as well as your own ability.


Yes, but, folks who start out in UKC rarely make the jump to AKC. This is because the expectations for grooming, type and movement are so different. I think a better strategy would be to hang out at the AKC shows learning everything you can. Watch how folks handle. Check out how they groom. Watch the way Poodles are expected to carry themselves etc.


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

Wierd I had just done a very in depth reply and it's disappeared! in brief-

I am no stranger to the AKC, I have a Parti that is a DQ in AKC, I have owner handled and professionally handled. Groomed severalmembers of different breeds to their CH. Gotten disgusted by some of the goings on at AKC shows. Have had a child compete in Jrs in AKC, every person can and will have their own opinion of hte perfect dog/horse/cat we cna agree to disagree.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

HOTW said:


> I am no stranger to the AKC, I have a Parti that is a DQ in AKC, I have owner handled and professionally handled. Groomed severalmembers of different breeds to their CH. Gotten disgusted by some of the goings on at AKC shows. Have had a child compete in Jrs in AKC, every person can and will have their own opinion of hte perfect dog/horse/cat we cna agree to disagree.


What breeds did you show and finish in AKC? What does your daughter show? What exactly are you disgusted by in AKC?


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

I think the thing people forget about UKC is that its not that Champion title that worth the most it's the _Grand_ Champion title. Group wins etc are just icing.

UKC showing in fun for beginners and being in breed like Poodles you can get your feet wet and actually enjoy yourself. Or show a Multicolored dog


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

I find many people say they get disgusted by what happens at AKC shows.
I can't speak for that, but here in NZ, we get the same.
Many people saying how at NZKC shows,they are disgusted by what happens. How people are treated, politics in winning.

IMHO that is an extremely poor excuse to not show, just because a few people were mean ? To me, that just shows lack of dedication, and if you can't put up with showing because of that... then what sort of breeder are you ?

People are always taking the negative aspects from shows. When I go to a show, I enjoy myself, catch up with friends, show my dogs, and some others', and go home, maybe with some ribbons lol... Sure, there may have been some nastiness, but honestly, why would you care about what someone, who degrades themselves to that level, actually thinks about you ?

People always say politics come in with dogs that win. I am not denying that doesn't happen, but when people always go on about it, and say that is all judges do, that is insulting to judges and their integrity. I find it funny that these are the same people, whose dogs NEVER win, no matter under whichever judge LOL

this is not directed at anyone... just a rant


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

:scared:

I'm having a fabulous time showing my girls in AKC Conformation. Owner Handler and winnning with a "color". I have a red - find wigs for that!

It's been an amazing learning experience - but then I subscribe to life is what you make it. It's not always "butter"!

My bitch has been beat by lesser animals with pro's on them. And I can't blame politics, though that would be an easy cop out. Pros are BETTER - it's what they do. Fact is I've gotten outhandled but I get better with every ring experience.

Growing a show coat and learning to present a poodle is not for the faint of heart. And it's incredibly time intensive.

But they are gorgeous, aren't they - in full Continental!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Nola:

I think your attitude is great. If you have been beaten and dont go around muttering under your breath, accept the judge's decision fair or unfair and go back into the ring trying again, then I commend you, Kudos !!

When you win with a dog you bred and handle yourself the wins is ever so much sweeter I feel.

Many owner handlers have a very difficult time accepting all that is going on in the ring and while there definitely are politics especially at the group level there are also ethical judges who can not and will not be bought and who know the breed and judge honestly and accordingly

One merely has to look for these judges especially when they owner handle their dogs or if they are new to the breed.

Most important thing I feel that new comers to the world of show poodles have to realize that if one starts with mediocrity, their dog will always be judged accordingly.

For an exhibitor who wants to show their own dog, they MUST have a dog superior in quality to the dog shown by a profes. handler who do it weekend in and weekend out and their faces are out there in front of judges every weekend.

Drives me nuts when I see top handlers giggle and chat with a judge holding on to their exhibit BEFORE the judge actually has a chance to judge the dog... but it does happen and it always will.. this is what this game is all about.. SHOW TIME !


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

I started out showing in AKC..first obedience then later in conformation. Went to UKC to show support for their acceptance of the partis. I have always disliked the AKC politics, especially when the handlers are chatting with the judges. But the bottom line is if you bring in a good dog, it will finish. I still love AKC shows, and volunteer at the local one every year. 

Have to agree with CBrand that very few will make the change from UKC to AKC. but it can and does happen. The ladies at Rivers Edge started in UKC and have become good groomers and present their dogs well in AKC..the payoff is that they are now winning!!

biggest advise I can give is to be patient. If your dog is constantly losing, then find the reason. Fix it if you can (such as growing coat, training,handling, etc) 

I was once told that the desire to train has to be stronger than the desire to win


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

cbrand said:


> What breeds did you show and finish in AKC? What does your daughter show? What exactly are you disgusted by in AKC?


I handled Lhasas to CH, pointed a client's toy Poodle, groomed Pyrs and WH Doxie to CH. Daughter handled Lhasas who had judges who had no idea that Lhasas could come in BLK/ white. Saw professional handles doing illegal things even abusive (sqeezing urine out of a dogs bladder so he wouldn't pee on himself after being ring ready, smacking a dog in the mouth causing it to bite its tongue an dbleed because he wanted a closed mouth for the BB pic) had a breeder friend get back 4 damamged dogs from a top breeder/ handler(one with broken pelvis, one had been beaten so severely it suffered brain damage, one wen from being a sweet dog to vicious) she was told , same as me-diferent occasions to keep her mouth shut about this person because he would not be disciplined and who was she/I to have the nerve to say soemthing?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I think the lesson here is that you can't throw the baby out with the bath water. Does abuse go on? Yes and frankly in all sports animal or human. The best we can do is take the high moral ground and pledge to play fairly and honorably.

Correct Poodles of good temperament will always win in AKC. Look at my bitch. She is not wigged, not dyed, not super fancy but she does have mostly correct structure and she is typey. She will finish even though she is a funky color. Do I use a pro-handler? Yes, but this is because I totally SUCK at handling and I also just can't be on the road showing as much as I would need to to finish this bitch. I feel like it is worth my money to pay a pro who will do my girl justice.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

[*QUOTE=HOTW;122384]I handled Lhasas to CH, pointed a client's toy Poodle, groomed Pyrs and WH Doxie to CH. Daughter handled Lhasas who had judges who had no idea that Lhasas could come in BLK/ white. Saw professional handles doing illegal things even abusive (sqeezing urine out of a dogs bladder so he wouldn't pee on himself after being ring ready, smacking a dog in the mouth causing it to bite its tongue an dbleed because he wanted a closed mouth for the BB pic) had a breeder friend get back 4 damamged dogs from a top breeder/ handler(one with broken pelvis, one had been beaten so severely it suffered brain damage, one wen from being a sweet dog to vicious) she was told , same as me-diferent occasions to keep her mouth shut about this person because he would not be disciplined and who was she/I to have the nerve to say soemthing?[/QUOTE]*


I HEAR YOU... I just cant imagine this is going on.. I have heard handlers beat on dogs into submission and showing properly in the ring and giving the cocktail uppers and downers but what you have described here after my 16 years in poodles shocks me to say the least as I have NEVER heard of this before and I do not consider myself sheltered.

When I read your post I had to read it over and over again, I just could not believe these practices are going on...

I never see this in CKC sanctioned shows.. and if they happen we would hear about them.

I am sorry you had to have these terrible sad experiences which turned you totally off to AKC..


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

It;s hard ot believe sometimes myself. And I've seen worse. And it's discouraging for people who are starting out to have to put up with some of the ridicule that is bandied about ringside. I have been there, and it was not a nice taste to have. I have been fortunate I have made some very good friends who were unwilling to compromise their principles so I learned true ethics. I also learned trying on a HC clip of any type when you are a nobody gets rude people laughing out loud at the person(A Junior) handling said dog.Mind you it attracted enough attnetion to pull Andrew Green and Kaz away from their areas to come take a look while the owner was grooming it!

I have been to many shows and never once have I not seen something that turned me off. i agree you probably won't see it at CKC sanctioned shows..Canadians have a little more Oomph about wrong doing. I used to have respect for some of the top handlers til I found out they were dyeing mismarked dogs just like everyone else I felt sorry for anyone who was htinkign about buying from those litters not knowing the mother was mismarked and a CH!

I have had enough of talking about this I didn't sleep well last night and this is my last word on the subject of the abuses.

I will however be trying on the UKC maybe even one day the CKC as I hope to return home in the next year or two..


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Good Luck getting back to where you are comfortable.

As far as the "Oomph of Canadians" there's plenty that I have heard of happening "up that way" in CKC as well (spoken like a true Southern girl! Laissez les Bon Temps Roulez! NOLA stands for New Orleans, LA :dancing2. 

Competition brings out the best and the worst in people - regardless of nationality or culture.

Think CDJenga mentioned the Babies and the Bath Water.

I wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms when I first went with Antoinette to a show. More than once people came over to rub her skin and part her chest hair to see if she was altered.

It was insulting - but really - in retrospect - the insult was on them, wasn't it.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

NOLA Standards said:


> Good Luck getting back to where you are comfortable.
> 
> As far as the "Oomph of Canadians" there's plenty that I have heard of happening "up that way" in CKC as well (spoken like a true Southern girl! Laissez les Bon Temps Roulez! NOLA stands for New Orleans, LA :dancing2.
> 
> ...


I agree with Nola 

No registry is SAFE from politics and animal abuse ... I have a lot of stories I can tell you about UKC ( its not all fine and daddy like you may think) CKC,AKC,UKC you will find people that are not nice,rude, and cheat .... All I can say is surround your self with good breeders and handlers with good ethics and you should be fine. I don't let other peoples bad doings spoil my fun at a show. Showing is a Hobby for me and not something to boost my own ego ( some people are like this and these people do whatever it takes to win either it be altering dog or abuse ....)


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

Roxey is right, you do see the same rude types in UKC. Some that when told not to use "products" look right at you and continue on. Again its up to the Judges to excuse the cheaters.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

I HEAR YOU... I just cant imagine this is going on.. I have heard handlers beat on dogs into submission and showing properly in the ring and giving the cocktail uppers and downers but what you have described here after my 16 years in poodles shocks me to say the least as I have NEVER heard of this before and I do not consider myself sheltered.

When I read your post I had to read it over and over again, I just could not believe these practices are going on...

I never see this in CKC sanctioned shows.. and if they happen we would hear about them.

I am sorry you had to have these terrible sad experiences which turned you totally off to AKC..[/QUOTE]

_At Alfie's first show, I saw first hand a well known handler being abusive to the dog they were handling. I couldn't believe that I was standing there watching it and am ashamed that I didn't walk up to them and challenge them on their mistreatment. 

The person stood behind the dog, took it by the muzzle and wrenched his head way back. Then they pressed the hind quarters into a squatting position with their fist between his hips until his knees buckled and then they pressed down with their knee between the dogs hips to keep him in that squatted position all the while forcing that head way back. They started to clip at imaginary hairs between the rosettes and the back of the jacket while holding the dog in this position. The dog finally broke away and got roughed up for it and pushed back into the position again. When the handler was done, they practically threw the dog at an assisting; obviously very irritated. The dog had taken Best of Breed the day before; but on this day, it was beat by a pretty little blue bitch. Guess that's what he gets for being a looser!!!!!:yell:
_


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

UGH - we are all different and it can be hard for most to not know how to respond. But I can be a mouthy bitch and I would have embarrassed their asses right there by raising my voice so everyone looked at their ignorant selves for doing that to this poor dog. 

I had no idea these things took place, really:doh: I just could not witness this and do nothing, its not in my makeup so to speak. When you are familiar with abuse on humans and animals and live through it, its hard to stand back and let it happen to others. 

Hmm this may not be for me after all..........

Cheaters/rule breakers and abusers - sounds like JAIL to me!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

NOLA Standards said:


> Good Luck getting back to where you are comfortable.
> 
> _As far as the "Oomph of Canadians" there's plenty that I have heard of happening "up that way" in CKC as well (spoken like a true Southern girl! Laissez les Bon Temps Roulez! NOLA stands for New Orleans, LA :dancing2. _
> Competition brings out the best and the worst in people - regardless of nationality or culture.
> ...


Nola,

You are funny... Are you from N. Orleans? I love this place.. My nephew graduated Tulane UT 3 years ago and loved the place.

that said, I really did not hear of any of this in our area, meaning Montreal, and/or Toronto area. 

Are you speaking about Canada's western part, BC, AB, MA... maybe? 
Which areas in Cda. have you experienced these horrible things in ?
I frequent dog shows quite often and I speak openly with my handler as we are also friendly not only having a business relationshiop and she knows everything there is to know, Never once has she told me of these things so I am just surprised where it is in Cda. that you have experienced or heard about these horrible things happening.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

LOL

I can now safely say that all this horrible crap happens in Agility now too!* After what happened today ... :smow:
*
So it does indeed happen in all walks of life, in most groups etc.

And as Roxy said, the best way to combat it, is to surround yourself in people who hold similar good ethics and values to you, and just enjoy your hobby!

I will always remember seeing a woman with a Dachshund of some sort.
I was watching the events transpire. A Borzoi was coming out of the ring, towards the direction of the Dachshund.

The Borzoi wasn't even interested in this Dachshund, but I could see the Dachshund was getting increasingly worried, and was looking towards its owner for some support.
For the owner to PROTECT their dog, from the upcoming possible threat.

This owner was class A __ ( I won't say the word here) ... and was to rapt up in her ownseld to actually care what her poor dog was going through.

So, the Borzoi is passing the Dachshund, with the owner failing to address her dogs needs, the dachshund, lashing out in defense, at the Borzoi.

The owner then proceeds to yank the lead extremely tight, and then jerk it a couple of times for good measure... and then give it a smack on the face ... :'( :'( :'(

Words cannot even comprehend what that poor dog was going through..

and this was the same woman, I realised, at a show a month ago, her dog did the same thing to my 5 month old Dobermann puppy, to which she says "Oh, he deserves it .." :wacko:

I am still ashamed to this day, I didn't say or do something, I was too in shock to do anything, but I have vowed, I will say something next time, if I see the same cruelty.

I don't care if I get alienated, I figure, if people are that shallow, then why do I care what they think, and if they're in my life ?


BUT! Everyone, not to be afraid about showing !!! Definitely do it, honestly, it is the select few who are horrible and ruin it. You just need to ignore them, report them where you can, and not despair in any hopelessness that you may feel!!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

LOL

J - the voice of reason.... you are right. BUT I think we do need to report it or step in safely (my way from a distance I supposehwell. i must say you remind me of someone who would have been all over it lol!!!!

I can see how this could scare people away though. It's tough when you feel defenseless around A- like this. (I hope this A is better lol) Imagine the poor dogs ugh.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

spoospirit said:


> _At Alfie's first show, I saw first hand a well known handler being abusive to the dog they were handling. I couldn't believe that I was standing there watching it and am ashamed that I didn't walk up to them and challenge them on their mistreatment.
> 
> The person stood behind the dog, took it by the muzzle and wrenched his head way back. Then they pressed the hind quarters into a squatting position with their fist between his hips until his knees buckled and then they pressed down with their knee between the dogs hips to keep him in that squatted position all the while forcing that head way back. They started to clip at imaginary hairs between the rosettes and the back of the jacket while holding the dog in this position. The dog finally broke away and got roughed up for it and pushed back into the position again. When the handler was done, they practically threw the dog at an assisting; obviously very irritated. The dog had taken Best of Breed the day before; but on this day, it was beat by a pretty little blue bitch. Guess that's what he gets for being a looser!!!!!:yell:
> _



Deb I have witness a handler hitting a dog just because she was happy and excited and the handler did not want the dog to mess up the spray job. When the dog out into the ring it did not show well yawning and had its tail half massed.....

I email breeder to tell her this and I dunno what happened but she stopped emailing me and said she would take care of it ... ( its like she did not believe me at all their where other witnesses also but I doubt they would have said something to the breeder)

So even when you do the right thing and tell the owners they either don't care of blacklist you for reporting animal abuse to them ......:wacko:


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