# Frequently Used Sire DNA



## PrettyPartis (Sep 5, 2017)

When getting a DNA test on a frequently used sire (thru AKC) what happens if neither parent has had a DNA test done?

Isn't the reason for the test to prove parentage? When reading through the info provided it appears that if parentage can't be proven then your sire would be given a conditional registration.

This almost seems like a sire could be "penalized" just because a DNA test had never been done on the parents.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

I hope someone knowledgeable will chime in. I thought that all was needed is the signature of the owner of the sire and dam to verify they are the parents. 

As for DNA Parentage evals, are you referring to this AKC link? 

I am guessing it's used mainly if a breeder owns 2+ stud dogs and wants to be 100% sure who the father is, or if the breeder/buyer has doubt, such as this article, _Help! I Bred Two Cream Dogs and Got an All Black Litter!_


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## PrettyPartis (Sep 5, 2017)

Here is the link to the Frequently Used Sire page. https://www.akc.org/breeder-programs/dna/dna-resource-center/frequently-used-sires-requirement/

From that page on the left you can also go to the FAQ page.

I was reading through several of the pages and came across the page on "conditional registration".

Here is the link in regards to Conditional Registration,
https://www.akc.org/breeder-programs/dna/dna-resource-center/conditional-registration/
and one of the question/answers states the following. 

What is a Conditional Registration and Pedigree?
When unknown parentage is indicated via DNA testing, the status of the registration will be downgraded to “conditional” until a three generation pedigree is established. “Unknown” will be noted on the registration or pedigree for the ancestor in question. This will only occur in cases where the dogs are believed to be purebred, but a registered parent is found to be incorrect.

I was reading that to say that if you have a DNA test done on your dog and they cannot match it to the parents listed thru their own DNA test then your dog gets a conditional registration, but maybe I'm reading it wrong. Maybe it means that all the pups that we register as pups of that sire would have to match if they were ever DNA tested?


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

From what I take, is:

1) The point made in the first link says, "every sire producing seven or more litters in a lifetime or producing more than three litters in a calendar year must be ‘AKC DNA Profiled.’ "

2) The point made in the second link says, "Again, it is important to note that Conditional registration is only to be issued in cases where the dog appears and is believed to be purebred — it is just that one of the dog’s ancestors is unknown."

If you haven't sent in the registration papers, I would just go ahead and submit the papers to get them registered to you, and wouldn't worry about it.

If you did already and the AKC sent you a letter saying there's a problem outlined in #1, I would send a copy to the breeder and ask that they submit the DNA to AKC and let you know when it's processed so you can resubmit your registrations. 

I like to think the breeder would be on top of this since they're breeding so often, and I _*really*_ hope they've done genetic health testing for everyone's sake. If they haven't, you might want to with your two. Right now there's a sale for a full genetic DNA Poodle Disease Panel for only $78 (link). 

I've also never seen such small parti poodles as in your intro post back in September; I thought these were always Spoos. If it turns out they are mixed-poos, there are activities AKC has, such as the AKC Canine Partners where they can participate in lots of activities, i.e. agility, rally, obedience, etc., just scroll down to "Why Join?"

Others who are more knowledgeable here might be of more help.


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## PrettyPartis (Sep 5, 2017)

Vita said:


> From what I take, is:
> 
> 1) The point made in the first link says, "every sire producing seven or more litters in a lifetime or producing more than three litters in a calendar year must be ‘AKC DNA Profiled.’ "
> 
> ...


Vita, thank you for the input. Just to clarify, there is NO problem with any registration. All of our poodles are toys, and all come from reputable breeders. 

The reason the question came about is because we do have a male that we are going to possibly use for breeding so it's possible that he might produce seven or more litters "in his lifetime". I'm just trying to stay ahead of the game.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

PrettyPartis said:


> ...The reason the question came about is because we do have a male that we are going to possibly use for breeding...


I've seen the pics of your two girls as pups and will guess that you hope to breed them, but haven't seen or heard about the male. 

If you show a few pics of him (side view standing, front shot, head shot, side view head shot), others will give you an honest critique. This is not for the faint-hearted, but it will give you very important information if you plan to bring 7+ litters into the world. Throw in updated pics of your girls, and you'll get a wealth of information. You probably should start another thread for that, probably in the Poodle Talk section where it's more likely to be noticed. 

There's a lot to breeding and this should help. Here are links with illustrations and commentary on correct poodle structure.

https://super-novas-standard-poodles.weebly.com/poodle-structure-and-official-akc-standards.html

Standard Poodle Structure Explained

https://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/14343-height-length-ratios-going-poll-2.html


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

“Right now there's a sale for a full genetic DNA Poodle Disease Panel for only $78 (link).“

I mentioned this to my breeder and she said that for spoos we need DM, vWD, and NE. The third test on this panel is PRA (for minis?). I asked because my boy is considered clear by parentage, but OFA only recognizes when parents are tested, not grandparents.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Poodle blindness from this is one of more common genetic problems in all sizes, at least that's what all the labs and studies indicate that I've read. At Paw Print Genetics, it is also included in their 'Standard Poodle Essential Panel'. 

On the other hand, your breeder appears correct when in comes to Spoos, at least according to the OFA. 

OFA-CHIC Health Testing Requirements on What Genetic diseases and/or conditions should my breed be screened for? 

~ for toy poodles, the PRA DNA test and the others, (link)

~ for mini-poos, same as above, (link)

~ for Spoos (link), they require an eye exam by an eye vet among other things.

I want to emphasize to anyone who is thinking of breeding that having an AKC poodle registration is basically a birth certificate for poodles. It does not prove that the poodle is genetically clear of diseases or has a sound body structure, and more. 

Just as we've learned to heed 'buyer beware' when shopping, the same applies to 'breeder beware' - and aware, particularly newbies aka backyard breeders. It's like, if you're going to do it, do your research and sire your females with the best, lest the breed becomes lessened over time.


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