# Sebaceous adenitis



## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

my poodle cristo has seen a dermatologist today who is “80%certain” that he has SA on his head and behind ears. A punch biopsy Is required to clarify. It is not severe at this time— just a waxy buildup. He said he would need to be on cyclosporine for life, a pretty potent antibiotic as you well know, one with many side effects.
Has anyone out there owned or treated a standard poodle with this condition? I truly don’t know what to do next with my beautiful boy.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I had some standard poodles who probably had SA. I say probably because this was back in the 1980s when SA was not well known. They were never treated and never really needed treatment. These were dogs from the Wycliffe and Bel Tor lines.

I think I would seek a second opinion before putting a dog on cyclosporine for life.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Johanna said:


> I had some standard poodles who probably had SA. I say probably because this was back in the 1980s when SA was not well known. They were never treated and never really needed treatment. These were dogs from the Wycliffe and Bel Tor lines.
> 
> I think I would seek a second opinion before putting a dog on cyclosporine for life.


Thank you so much for responding I am older and the baths and oils and humectants advised are daunting The cyclosporine even in low doses makes me sick to think about it. My boy is only 4 years old and very very handsome. He did come from a reputable breeder in Ohio who acts as if this is not that big a deal. Yes, it is! I will have the punch biopsy done to clarify the diagnosis, but then I must re home him if anyone will assume whst seems to me a big responsibility. I would be completely transparent of course. Thank you again.


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## Piper 2020 (Aug 16, 2020)

If you're talking about those harmless but ugle cysts, Alfie has them. My old vet, now retired, would give him a shot to dull the pain and then burn them off with a laser. My experience: Alfie didn't mind the experience and they did not come back. My new vet surgically removes them when he has his teeth cleaned. But they come back. After consulting with my vet, I've decided to just ignore them. Alfie licks the ones he can reach and the ones he licks go away leaning just a faint scar.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm sorry to hear that you and your boy are dealing with this. If it comes to it, and the breeder declines to take him back to rehome, or help with the rehoming, there are Poodle Rescues affiliated with the Poodle Club of America who will make certain that he finds another good home. 
Poodle Rescue (poodleclubofamericarescuefoundationinc.org) 


The good news is that he'll most likely be able to live a relatively healthy life, even if he's diagnosed with SA.


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## Piper 2020 (Aug 16, 2020)

Leaving a faint scar, not leaning. I HATE typing on an iPad.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm searching thru SA threads now. One mentioned a Facebook group for owners of dogs with SA. If it comes to it, that might be a very helpful place.

(20+) SAGroup (Sebaceous Adenitis in Dogs) | Facebook


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Piper 2020 said:


> Leaving a faint scar, not leaning. I HATE typing on an iPad.


Just click the three dots in the upper right corner of your post to edit


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Piper 2020 said:


> If you're talking about those harmless but ugle cysts, Alfie has them. My old vet, now retired, would give him a shot to dull the pain and then burn them off with a laser. My experience: Alfie didn't mind the experience and they did not come back. My new vet surgically removes them when he has his teeth cleaned. But they come back. After consulting with my vet, I've decided to just ignore them. Alfie licks the ones he can reach and the ones he licks go away leaning just a faint scar.


I wish I were talking about those sebaceous cysts. I’d be thrilled. No, this is a genetic disorder and rare
That attacks the sebaceous glands and wreaks havoc on the dog’s coat and skin-lifelong care required. But thank you for taking the time to respond


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I'm sorry to hear that you and your boy are dealing with this. If it comes to it, and the breeder declines to take him back to rehome, or help with the rehoming, there are Poodle Rescues affiliated with the Poodle Club of America who will make certain that he finds another good home.
> Poodle Rescue (poodleclubofamericarescuefoundationinc.org)
> 
> 
> The good news is that he'll most likely be able to live a relatively healthy life, even if he's diagnosed with SA.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Thank you so much that is comforting news. I hadn’t thought of that I’m going to write down your call name and keep posting as we tackle this. I’m trying not to be so discouraged. Thanks again


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## Piper 2020 (Aug 16, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Just click the three dots in the upper right corner of your post to edit


Thanks. I didn't even see the three dots.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Zippy said:


> Thank you so much that is comforting news. I hadn’t thought of that I’m going to write down your call name and keep posting as we tackle this. I’m trying not to be so discouraged. Thanks again


Please do. We worry too, along with you 🤗

I'm not personally familiar with SA but am learning as I read. Another encouraging post in one thread noted that it can happen that the SA responds to treatment to the point of maintenance dropping to a more manageable level. 

First tho, the biopsy. Then we'll have better information. 

Not all of these threads are about SA but I scanned thru most of the first three pages of posts. Leave it all for tonight and get a fresh start in the morning .

(11) Search results for query: sebaceous adenitis | Poodle Forum


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

We have a couple of members who are also currently in the throes of identifying a skin problem with their pups. I'm going to pass along a link to a survey taken from poodle and other affected breed owners. This set me on another search and I have a few more links to add.



Angel 88 said:


> Sebaceous Adenitis Survey in Tacoma, WA - Dermatology Clinic for Animals  Sebaceous Adenitis Survey Results by Jenny Drastura With the support of the Genodermatosis Research Foundation (GRF), I recently conducted a survey to determine what types of treatments dog owners have found to be successful in controlling Sebaceous Adenitis, a skin condition caused by an... dermvettacoma.com


I then looked up GRF sebaceous adenitis in dogs and Poodle Club of America sebaceous adenitis and found these
Applied Dermatology: Sebaceous Adenitis in Dogs - VetFolio
Sebaceous Adenitis in Dogs - Veterinary Partner - VIN


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I looked at your first post in January 2020 and you had a similar concern then. Did the situation clear up then come back or is it really not the same?


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I looked at your first post in January 2020 and you had a similar concern then. Did the situation clear up then come back or is it really not the same?


It did clear up and came back May 2021. Not a mark in him in April 2021! Thank you for your diligence


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n poos , I read the many replies to the excellent and helpful survey you found. My boy is scheduled for punch biopsy aug 16. He is being bathed today by my long term groomer. She will be looking all over his body for anything out of the ordinary. The places we are worried about are on his topknot area and behind his ears with some hsir loss in front of his ears. The scaling and odor and lesions are not in evidence yet— just thinning hair and discoloration of his white hair to punish brown. He is not itchy—yet. Nor is he crusty at this point
The bars and soaks are of concern to me because I will be having someone else do this for me. Also, I’m very reluctant to give him cyclosporine as the dermatologist has said would be required “for life”
Not a great quality if life on that potent med with its side effects. My boy cristo is a beauty, show quality, excellent dense springy coat, and great laid back disposition. However, if I cannot manage the labor intensive SA management, I must find another home for him. Sadly, who will want to assume the problems that come with SA. IVE SAID ALL THIS TO VOICE MY BIGGEST FEARS AND CONCERNS TO SOMEONE LIKE YOU WHO UNDERSTANDS


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm not medically trained but have worked around the field all my life, so I speak a bit of medical.

I'm writing and asking now to get more perspective.

I've read a bit about cyclosporine and while I see that side effects aren't unusual, I'm not seeing why it's considered so dire?

I also have seen that cyclosporine is not the only oral treatment that might be used. It definitely seems to be the most effective.

I've also seen that for milder cases, it's possible to forego the antibiotics, but that removes the synergistic effect of the drug and the skin treatments.

Highlighting in this paper (last linked above)

Treatment

*Response to therapy largely depends on whether there are still living sebaceous glands in the biopsy sample or not. If there are no glands left and they have all been destroyed, it will be much harder to get a response though it is possible for glands to regenerate with treatment. *The inflammation that destroyed (or is destroying) the sebaceous glands must be stopped. Furthermore, new hair growth depends on a coat of sebum (skin oil) so if the patient's skin is not making adequate skin oil, the oil must be replaced.

Topical

*Oil replacement treatments are performed frequently at first and taper down to less frequent applications after the first month*. Every dermatologist seems to have their own preferred regimen so here are *some typical recommendations:

Mineral oil, mineral bath oil (such as Alpha Keri®) or propylene glycol mixed with water, sprayed onto the coat or affected area of the coat, rubbed in, and shampooed out with a degreasing shampoo after a one hour soak. This is performed typically once a week for the first month then as needed. Phytosphyingosine-containing products enhance the barrier function of the skin and are being used instead of the oil soaks. Omega 6 fatty acid topicals are also becoming more popular as an easy way to replenish skin oil as they are easily applied as a top spot.*

Oral Supplements

*Oral omega 3 fatty acids are almost always included in the treatment regimen. *Vitamin A has been advocated for sebaceous adenitis but seems to be fading out of popularity with the advent of other oral treatments (see below).

Oral Medication

*Cyclosporine seems to be at the heart of treatment for the more severely affected dogs*; further, on cyclosporine, dogs with only two percent of their sebaceous glands left have been able to increase this number to 40 percent. Cyclosporine is an immunomodulator that is able to suppress the inflammation that is destroying the sebaceous glands. *Many patients are able to discontinue this medication after a couple of months but there is no way to determine from the beginning which patients will need on-going low dose therapy and which ones will be able to stop treatment.*


Synthetic retinoids have held a great deal of promise in treating sebaceous adenines but they are tightly regulated by the government and are not readily available for veterinary patients.

Immunomodulation with doxycycline is an emerging therapy but still in the investigational stage. Doxycycline is first and foremost an antibiotic but has numerous immunomodulating properties as well and is used widely to treat immune-mediated disease.

Managing a dog with this condition can be labor intensive for the dog's lifespan. *The amount of work needed at home depends on the individual dog's response to therapy. *Marked improvement is typically realized within 4 months of treatment but it is important to realize this can be a high maintenance skin disease.

Again, I'm not medically trained, but you described an occurrence in Jan 2020 which disappeared until May of 2021.



Zippy said:


> In October I noticed his armpits were bare of hair. Then I noticed thinning behind his ears and on topknot his skin on belly and head were bright pink. Two vets an anti fungal shampoo cytopoint injection and full blood panel work up that showed nothing later his hair has turned pink at the root. My beautiful boy’s coat has changed drastically. There is not dandruff nor scaling nor bumps nor pustules on his skin he is not itchy


A few days ago


Zippy said:


> My male white standard’s head is turning the reddish pink color many dogs have from licking their fur. Obviously he can’t lick behind his ears and all over the bony part of his head. This starts on the skin snd radiates out. Surprisingly, he’s not itchy.


This alone doesn't sound like a "severe" case, definitely not like the photos I've seen of those.

Have you been able to figure out how to post a photo? There's a possibility someone here has had experience with something similar, possibly not SA, and might be able to open a different consideration. Naturally, the biopsy will give more definitive info. 

I don't want to suggest false hope, but it's too soon to make assumptions. I think those of us following your thread are very sympathetic and if it should become necessary for you to find another home for Cristo, you'll find support here.

I'm sure we're hoping with you, that this won't be needed.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I'm not medically trained but have worked around the field all my life, so I speak a bit of medical.
> 
> I'm writing and asking now to get more perspective.
> 
> ...


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Thank you. Thank you. I am a worrier and prone to entertain worst case scenario as a way not to be blindsided by something if it comes. I also hate waiting until mid August to have him biopsied and another 10 days for lab results. I feels tho I’m wasting valuable time. It was good for me to reread those old posts. Thank you again for taking the interest and the time to help me. You are an encourager.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Zippy said:


> Thank you. Thank you. I am a worrier and prone to entertain worst case scenario as a way not to be blindsided by something if it comes. I also hate waiting until mid August to have him biopsied and another 10 days for lab results. I feels tho I’m wasting valuable time. It was good for me to reread those old posts. Thank you again for taking the interest and the time to help me. You are an encourager.


If you feel comfortable s Em ding me your email, I know how to send pics. Or a number I can text.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Zippy said:


> Thank you. I am a worrier and prone to entertain worst case scenario as a way not to be blindsided by something if it comes


This first. I'm going to say things that you already know here. 

I completely understand about not wanting to get blindsided. You're past that now by knowing what you know. That knowing however doesn't mean inevitable. 
Prepare? Absolutely! Focus on the negative? Absolutely not! 

By focusing on worst case you unintentionally start selecting to the worst and create a bias loop that isn't going to help either of you. 

Poodles are very in tune with their people and respond accordingly. 

It's pretty well established that stress is a factor in many, most health issues. Your stress, understandable but, is possibly affecting Cristo. 

He needs you to be his beacon. I know that you can do that for him and for yourself. 

You are doing all that can be done for now and yes it sucks not knowing exactly or what's ahead but don't forget to think about some positive possibilities and balance for both your sakes.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> This first. I'm going to say things that you already know here.
> 
> I completely understand about not wanting to get blindsided. You're past that now by knowing what you know. That knowing however doesn't mean inevitable.
> Prepare? Absolutely! Focus on the negative? Absolutely not!
> ...


Again, thank you thank you. Wish you were my next door neighbor and we were enjoying iced tea together on the patio😁. I’m 72, a retired English teacher, who enjoys my children, grands, and my dogs.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Rose n Poos said:


> Have you been able to figure out how to post a photo?





Zippy said:


> If you feel comfortable s Em ding me your email, I know how to send pics. Or a number I can text.


If it comes to it, I will, but let's see if we can get you comfortable doing this here .

Are you using a phone to post here or are you using a desktop/laptop/tablet? 
Are your photos on your phone or stored on/copied to a desktop/laptop/tablet? 
Are you practiced in using the Copy/Paste function? 

The very simplest method (to me) is if you're on a desktop/laptop/tablet and your photos are stored on that device. 

If that's the case, all you need to do is 
1/ go to the photo you want to post in your files
2/ right click on that photo and select Copy 
3/ move back to the reply/text box that you want the photo to appear in 
4/ right click to Paste the photo in the reply/test box and the photo will appear

If you're on the EZ plan above, give it a try. If not, what device are you using and where are your photos stored?


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> If it comes to it, I will, but let's see if we can get you comfortable doing this here .
> 
> Are you using a phone to post here or are you using a desktop/laptop/tablet?
> Are your photos on your phone or stored on/copied to a desktop/laptop/tablet?
> ...


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

I’m using my phone to communicate and my pictures are on my phone. I have a laptop and may be able to move my pics there. I do not know how to copy snd paste but I can get my granddaughter to help me with all of it. And I shall. It may be later tonight but I’ll get it done. Thank you
please send me the link to the sebaceous adenitis group. I can’t locate it


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Zippy said:


> I’m using my phone to communicate and my pictures are on my phone


Is your phone an iPhone (Apple iOS) or Android (anything not iPhone)? 

If you mean the Facebook group (20+) SAGroup (Sebaceous Adenitis in Dogs) | Facebook


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)




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## tyspoodles (Apr 26, 2017)

My girl has SA and loses hair on her topknot and behind her ears. We elected not to do meds, but I put oil on her "bald" spots - jojoba is the best, but almond oil is good too. It can be a cyclic disease - her hair grows back in -although a different color, but usually every 6 months or so, it falls out again, then grows back in. Many people use different kinds of oil - some wash it out, some, like me leave it in to absorb. The SA Facebook page is a lifesaver, with tons of information. Basically, you try different things until you find what works for your baby. I might get a second opinion about keeping her on those meds for a lifetime. Both my vet and my dermatologist assured me it is a cosmetic disease and is not painful. So far, we haven't seen a difference in her behavior. Good luck!


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## tyspoodles (Apr 26, 2017)

My girl has it ( see the other post) and I agree it can be overwhelming to read all the different options, but it sounds like your boy has a mild case like my girl and she is easily cared for - no meds and I put jojoba oil on her bald spots, the back part of her topknot and behind her ears. Her hair grows back. There is a lot more detail in my other post, but to cut to the chase, before you consider re-homing, try the simplest first, then move up. My girl is happy and healthy - she just is occasionally missing hair. Don't be intimidated by all the different opinions. There's a lot that you can do that isn't necessarily expensive or hugely time consuming. You can PM me if you want.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> Is your phone an iPhone (Apple iOS) or Android (anything not iPhone)?
> 
> If you mean the Facebook group (20+) SAGroup (Sebaceous Adenitis in Dogs) | Facebook


iPhone. Thank you.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

tyspoodles said:


> My girl has it ( see the other post) and I agree it can be overwhelming to read all the different options, but it sounds like your boy has a mild case like my girl and she is easily cared for - no meds and I put jojoba oil on her bald spots, the back part of her topknot and behind her ears. Her hair grows back. There is a lot more detail in my other post, but to cut to the chase, before you consider re-homing, try the simplest first, then move up. My girl is happy and healthy - she just is occasionally missing hair. Don't be intimidated by all the different opinions. There's a lot that you can do that isn't necessarily expensive or hugely time consuming. You can PM me if you want.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Your posts are very reassuring and helpful. I have made the decision against punch biopsies because I know they can be inconclusive and I know I will not follow the dermatologists protocol for cyclosporine, so why not try topical treatment? I’m not sure anything I’ve written and asked has been read by anyone on FB BECAUSE IVE NOT RECEIVED ONE REPLY. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE TYPE SHAMPOO RECOMMENDED ALING WITH THE USE OF JOJOBA OIL. I DO THINK CRISTO’s problem may be cyclical which is encouraging to me 
I hope this post is being seen by Tyspoodles but who knows. All the discussion on the SA FB group is helpful. Thanks to anyone and everyone for allowing me to be a member of forum and SA GROUP


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Hi @Zippy, If you want to get the attention of a specific user, try typing @ and then the users name (make sure you spell it correctly). The user will receive a notification that you mentioned them in a post (as you received for this post).

e.g. @tyspoodles


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

@tyspoodles I hope my boy cristo is similar to your girl’s situation if you ever wish to email me, it’s [removed by moderator]. I know many people don’t wish to text but should you ever do so it’s [removed by moderator]. I’m not good at the forum or sa group on FB. NEVER USED FB BEFORE.
IM JUST NOT SURE WHERE THIS DISEASE IS HEADING HES LOSING HAIR IN FRINTBOF HIS EARS AND ALREADY LOST BEHIND HIS EARS. WHITE HSIR QUITE DISCOLORED OF COURSE. ITCHY MINIMALLY SO FAR. HIS PIGMENT IS EITHER GRAY OR DARK IR PINK— weird. I’m really dependent on my groomer to bathe weekly. I can do oil before he goes. Thought of using a snood where I put oil but he’s never worn one. Anything, anything else you can recommend, I will so appreciate. Hope this comes through. Any particular food you use?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Hi @Zippy. I’d recommend exchanging any private information via Poodle Forum’s message feature. Just click the user’s name and then select “Message.”

Let me know if you have any questions. I’m happy to help.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

tyspoodles said:


> My girl has it ( see the other post) and I agree it can be overwhelming to read all the different options, but it sounds like your boy has a mild case like my girl and she is easily cared for - no meds and I put jojoba oil on her bald spots, the back part of her topknot and behind her ears. Her hair grows back. There is a lot more detail in my other post, but to cut to the chase, before you consider re-homing, try the simplest first, then move up. My girl is happy and healthy - she just is occasionally missing hair. Don't be intimidated by all the different opinions. There's a lot that you can do that isn't necessarily expensive or hugely time consuming. You can PM me if you want.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Tyspoodles I hope this is a dm To you as another member reminded me not to post private info as I did with email and phone number thinking only you would be recipient how long do you leave on oil and then you bathe with what shampoo. Do you use conditioner and/ or a humectant spray. Please confirm if you receive this. Obviously I’m new to this and dk how to reply and post properly


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Tyspoodles he has had all coat cut back. Today was his first oil bath then medicated shampoo my longtime groomer did it. I have not had him biopsied for many reasons. My dermatologist says he has it and I agree. Now that we’re home he is really itchy behind his bald ears and balding topknot. 
if you have any itch control suggestions I need them now. He also has a spot going down his back. My groomer said theee was lots of gunk in his ears altho they didn’t smell. He has not been itchy until now.
I haven’t begun fatty acids or vitamin a if you know anything about that regimen, please share. 
I think he looks terrible but he was a full coated beautiful white boy—— sadly, not anymore. It is devastating to me. I’m afraid the scratching will result in a secondary infection. I’ve read, listened, researched, been to get and dermatologist and have no clear answers or protocols. I hope this is seen by you as I replied to you with your name specifically. Thank you


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Until tyspoodles sees this and responds, I'll offer what I can and hope you don't mind. 

It seems a bit like you're hoping for a preplanned menu to choose from but the more I've read, the more I see that the treatment options are much more like selecting from a buffet. 

I know this will be overwhelming for you but when reviewing this info, look for the similarities rather than the differences. First, the buffet needs to be laid out with like items in the same area, so choose whether you want to start with a first bath or go straight to the oil bath. Select the brands or type of shampoo or oil you'll try. Next choose your hydration type for after bath, etc. 

Hopefully, you'll hear from tyspoodles or some of the other members, maybe even the FB folks will respond and help you sort thru your options. 

General categories are:
(shampoo may be a first and third step, just depends)
oil bath
shampoo
hydrating substance
oral supplements

supplemental spray hydration between baths 

(hope I haven't missed one, will recheck later)

Now, copying from sites that mention treatment methods. I expect some things to be the same or similar and some not to be. That's because there just isn't a one size fits all approach. I'm not including the prescription medications. 

*PRINCIPLES:*

The excessive scales need to be softened by using a soak in a mild oil.
The scales need to be removed by a series of shampoos and GENTLE scrubbing to remove the scale from the skin as well as from the hair shafts.
The skin should be kept lubricated with a dilute oil or heavy coat conditioner.
Repeat oil soak and shampoos are done on a regular basis to maintain a clean skin and coat. The frequency depends upon the severity of the disease.
Most people find that, after a few frequent treatments, the treatments can be decreased to as little as twice a month.
The type of oil used is up to the user but something that is soluble in water is ideal. For example, the #1 All Systems coat oil, Alpha-Keri, and generic bath or shower oils have each been used. The shampoo can be a mild detergent such as Dawn dish detergent or any of the canine shampoos. Do not use human shampoos as the pH of a dog’s skin is quite different and you can increase the damage to the skin if a harsh shampoo is used. Some recommend the use of Murphy’s Liquid Soap, which is manufactured for wood floors. It is made from vegetable oils and rinses out easily, especially when diluted slightly. Use it as a shampoo, rubbing it in well for 10 minutes before rinsing out completely. It leaves a strong odor on the dog which some dogs and owners do not like. Another effective treatment consists of a goats’ milk soap, apple cider vinegar rinse and coconut oil conditioner infused with essential oils.

*METHOD:*

Coat the dog in a dilute oil solution (for example ½ cup of oil in a quart of warm water). More severely affected dogs benefit from more oil in the mixture and mildly affected dogs require less oil.
Let the dog soak in the oil-water mixture for 15 minutes to 1 hour, depending upon the severity of the scaling. You may need to soak even longer if there is very severe scaling.
Lather the coat in your detergent or shampoo of choice.
Gently scrub the lathered dog with a terry cloth or soft brush, spending extra time on the areas with the most severe scaling.
Rinse and repeat #3, 4 and 5 several times.
Rinse thoroughly.
Apply a heavy conditioner or light oil.
Let the dog air dry, or gently blow dry if the dog has sufficient coat and the skin is not bare and painful.
Most people find that, once the coat has been treated for a few weeks, the coat begins to grow again. Often the hair is softer and less curly when it grows back out, but the dog has adequate coat to begin growing out into a desired pet pattern, the skin heals nicely and the dog once again looks like a poodle and feels comfortable. Continued long-term maintenance of coat and skin care is required.

Home Treatment for Sebaceous Adenitis - Versatility In Poodles, Inc. : Versatility In Poodles, Inc. (vipoodle.org) 


*Treatment*
Treatment for sebaceous adenitis is twofold, involving both topical and systemic therapy. The goals of treatment are not only to remove excess scale and crusts while improving coat quality but also to reduce sebaceous gland inflammation and destruction.

*Topical Therapy*

The topical treatment regimen starts with a four-step process that, although labor intensive, provides excellent results:

*Step one:*
Remove excessive scale, crusts, and follicular casts by bathing the dog in a keratolytic or keratoplastic shampoo.a We recommend using shampoos with ingredients that have synergistic properties, such as sulfur and salicylic acid.24 In addition, a medicated shampoob combining the keratolytic properties of sulfur with the follicular-flushing activity of benzoyl peroxide is effective for cases with secondary bacterial folliculitis.6 Shampoos should be allowed to sit for 10 minutes before rinsing completely.

*Step two:*
Apply an oil treatment consisting of a 50:50 mixture of water and either a bath oilc or generic baby oil to replace the oily barrier of the stratum corneum.3,25 This should be thoroughly rubbed into the entire haircoat and allowed to soak for 1 to 2 hours. It may be easiest to keep the dog in a kennel, crate, or small bathroom while allowing the oil treatment to soak.

*Step three:*
Remove all the unabsorbed oil with a liquid dishwashing detergent.d

*Step four:*
Apply a moisturizing conditionere or humectant rinse/sprayf.25

This regimen should be followed once a week for 4 to 6 weeks, then every 2 to 4 weeks as needed. If the haircoat shows improvement after 1 to 2 months, the oil soaks can be replaced by topical spot-on treatments containing essential oils and ω-3/ω-6 fatty acidsg or 1% phytosphingosine.h Essential oil spot-ons should be applied to the surface of the skin once a week for 8 weeks, then once every 2 weeks for maintenance. Unlike the generalized oil soaks, these spot-on treatments should not be rinsed off. Volumes per dose (pipette) are 0.6 mL (<10 kg body weight), 1.2 mL (10 to 20 kg), and 2.4 mL (20 to 40 kg). Phytosphingosine spot-on treatments can be applied topically in two or three places in the shoulder and lumbar area twice a week until lesions resolve: 1 pipette (<20 kg body weight), two pipettes (21 to 45 kg), or three pipettes (>45 kg). These can also be applied every 1 to 2 weeks as maintenance therapy and could be ideal for more localized cases.

Spray-on therapy can be continued between baths, either with topical propylene glycol (mixture of 50:50 or 75:25 of propylene glycol and water)25 or 0.2% phytosphingosine spray if the skin and haircoat remain dry between baths.i Propylene glycol acts as a hygroscopic agent, penetrating the stratum corneum and increasing its water content.24 In addition, we typically use dietary supplements containing essential fatty acids, including ω-3 and ω-6 fatty acids, for potential antiinflammatory properties, barrier protection, and effects on lipid metabolism.21,24,25 Corticosteroids at either antiinflammatory or immunosuppressive doses do not seem to add any benefit to the management of sebaceous adenitis.1,6,21

During this treatment regimen, clients who use a spot-on parasiticide should follow the labeled instructions for the specific product regarding how long bathing should be postponed after product application, particularly when the patient is being bathed once a week. Once the patient responds to treatment for sebaceous adenitis, the use of topical parasiticides should not pose any problems.
Applied Dermatology: Sebaceous Adenitis in Dogs - VetFolio


Treatment

Sebaceous adenitis is primarily a cosmetic disease and isn't particularly bothersome to the pet unless there is an associated secondary infection. All modes of therapy (topical and oral) are intended to slow the disease progression and manage the skin condition. Additionally, treatment with appropriate antibiotics and antifungals is necessary if a secondary bacterial or yeast infection is present.

*Mild cases:

*


> Oral omega-3 fatty acid supplementation daily-typically, 180 mg of combined eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) per 5 kg of body weight


*>* Topical therapy: keratolytic shampoos and emollient rinses; humectants every two to four days (Douxo Seborrhea shampoo and spray and Dechra DermAllay shampoo and spray are products that have been used with success)

*Severe cases:

*


> Oral omega-3 fatty acid supplementation daily-typically, 180 mg of combined EPA and DHA per 5 kg of body weight


*>* Propylene glycol (50%-70%) spray or water-based moisturizing spray daily (we typically recommend a 50-50 mixture of water and propylene glycol)

*>* Baby or mineral oil soaks (two to three hours) followed by bathing to remove excess oil; repeat weekly until condition has improved and then every two to four weeks for maintenance

*Additional oral therapies:

*


> Vitamin A: 1,000 IU/kg orally every 24 hours with a maximum daily dose of 20,000 IU/kg to minimize adverse effects


Glands sakes! Diagnosing and treating sebaceous adenitis in dogs (dvm360.com) 


*Treatments for SA*

If any conclusion can be drawn from this survey, it is that oil baths are the single-most successful treatment reported that gave the dogs the best the chance of improvement in coat, skin and well-being.

Sixty-four dogs were given some type of oil bath or daily to weekly oil sprays. Most of the oils used were some type of mineral oil based product such as baby oil, Alpha-Keri oil or Avon Skin-So-Soft. One person uses cod liver oil. Three use a commercial oil treatment (Nexus Botanical, Humilac and Pure Pet). While everyone did not specify whether these oils are mixed with water, quite a few do so, and a 50/50 mixture is what is recommended by most practitioners. The oils are left on the dog anywhere from 10 minutes to six hours, the most common being either one hour or two hours. The frequency of baths ranges from weekly to once a month; most respondents begin with weekly baths and vary the frequency later after several months as symptoms improve or recur.

One other product used successfully by a professional groomer who deals with multiple SA dogs is a special All Systems product mixture (one part Pure Lanolin Plus Skin & Hair Emollients, one part Super-Rich Protein Lotion Conditioner and two parts any cream rinse, all mixed with 8 ounces of water). This mixture is used in place of the oil, and is washed out with a detergent shampoo and cream rinse. The benefit is that the formula is much easier to wash out of the coat. This writer tried the formula after several months of using oil, and we were able to maintain the progress we made after using the oil. To be safe, we used oil very fourth time.

The oil is most often washed out with a dishwashing liquid such as Dawn or Palmolive (24 used these). Most people follow this with a more gentle shampoo, an oatmeal-based shampoo being the most used (5). Other shampoo choices include Wonderful, Suave Daily Clarifying, J&J Almond, Dr. Bizonner’s pure castile soap, Absolutely Natural, Coat Guard and Epi-Smooth. Five respondents used medicated shampoos after the oil, such as SebaLyt, Sulfoxydex or Sebolux.

Cream rinses such as Jhirmack E.F.A., Nexus Humectress, Mr. Crystal’s Oil of Orchard and Groomer’s Edge are used by some respondents after the final shampoo. At least five use a mixture of propylene glycol and water as a rinse or in a spray bottle between baths; two respondents use tea tree oil mixture.

Unfortunately, rating one oil, one shampoo, or even one frequency of bathing over another is virtually impossible. Results range drastically, but it is safe to say that all dogs showed at least some improvement after receiving as few as one or two oil baths. Respondents reported that scales, flakes and odor greatly disappeared after even one bath. One dog, for example, went from completely bald to a full coat; another was able to maintain its coat. A long-haired dog (Lhasa Apso) went from completely bald on the body and tail to a coat that touched the ground, but with no undercoat and sparse tail hair. An Old English Sheepdog also was able to grow back a fair amount of coat, but also had no undercoat. After four years of oil baths, one dog has only lost a few patches of hair that have grown back, albeit thin. One person found that as long as the baths are given weekly, the coat looks fine. But once this routine is broken, the coat drops. Another person found she can go 3 weeks without giving the dog a bath, but any more results in clumps of hair falling out. Several people mention that summertime brings on coat loss regardless of the frequency of bathing, a phenomenon that could may or may not be related to the SA. It appears that the only conclusion that can be drawn here is that while oil is definitely a successful factor in improvement, the amount used and the frequency of the baths just may depend on the individual dog. From the descriptions given, there did not appear to be a great variation in the actual methods used to give the baths.

At least seven respondents were not told by their veterinarian to use the oil baths for treatment. Three of the respondents found out about the oil baths as a result of this survey and have seen marked improvement as a result. One Poodle owner feels that in addition to a great improvement in the skin texture and a modest regrowth of hair, the dog’s disposition has also improved. A Samoyed owner who has seen marked improvement in skin and coat also feels that her dog is much happier and feels much better since the oil treatments have been started. Several others who had not been told about the oil plan to try the method and update us at a later time.

Some of the respondents not using oil baths are not without progress. One person sprays her dog with tea tree oil twice a week, uses Redken products every other month and oatmeal-based products as needed in between. This person’s dog is being shown in obedience. Propylene glycol helped another dog regain coat on both sides of the spine. One Lhasa owner whose dog clearly had signs of SA, but who did not have an official diagnosis, used Desenex shampoo and dabbed the lesions with Listerine. That dog is now in coat, according to the owner. However, at least four dogs being bathed only in medicated or other shampoos are still experiencing moderate to severe skin and coat problems.

Respondents were asked about the use of supplements. The supplements being used are: fatty acids (11); Vitamin E (10); Derm Caps (9); oil of primrose (7); flax seed oil (6); Vitamin A (6); Missing Link (6); Vitamin C (5); fish oil (4); cod liver oil (3); brewer’s yeast (3); garlic (3); Ester-C (3); kelp (2); selenium (2); and one each Linatone, zinc, Solid Gold sea meal, shark cartilage, pureed spinach, Vitamin K, Lipiderm, vegetable oil, peanut butter, Vita-Coat, sunflower oil, Canine Complete, astragulus, flax meal, Vitamin D, C-Biotics, seaweed mineral food, Allerderm caps and Prozyme. When asked if these supplements have been useful, most respondents are unsure since there are other factors involved and other treatments being used at the same time. Twenty-one felt that any supplements they have used have not been helpful. However, these positive comments were made:

Dermatology Clinic for Animals Sebaceous Adenitis Survey in Tacoma, WA - Dermatology Clinic for Animals (dermvettacoma.com)


Treatment 

Due to the lack of full understanding of pathogenesis, many treatment options are described in the literature. Response to therapy can be unpredictable and many clinicians treat on the basis of personal preference. Mild cases can be controlled with keratolytic shampoos, emollients or humectants. Keratolytic shampoos, such as those containing sulphur, salicylic acid or zinc, can be used. Oil soaks can be a useful adjunct therapy after removal of crust and scale by bathing. A two-hour soak in baby oil, followed by thorough rinsing and application of 70% propylene glycol, was performed in one study. When used one to three times weekly and then tapered, it was found to be as effective as ciclosporin treatment alone (Lortz et al, 2010).

Coconut oil can also be used as an alternative; however, this can be more difficult to apply and remove due to its consistency. Again, this requires bathing before and after to thoroughly remove any residual oil. Essential fatty acids (EFAs), given both systemically or applied topically, seem to work in some patients (Tevell et al, 2008). Given the relatively benign side effects from this treatment, EFAs and topical treatment are often considered before immunosuppressive treatment is instigated. Vitamin A, which is responsible for normal keratinisation and follicular maturation, has been used to 5 / 8 treat many keratinisation disorders. It has been used on its own and in conjunction with topical and/or systemic therapy. Varying degrees of success with this treatment have seen some owners report more than 25% improvement in the appearance of their dog, but others report no improvement. Not enough data exists to support or dismiss its use in treating SA (Lam et al, 2011). 

Sebaceous adenitis management (vettimes.co.uk)


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> Until tyspoodles sees this and responds, I'll offer what I can and hope you don't mind.
> 
> It seems a bit like you're hoping for a preplanned menu to choose from but the more I've read, the more I see that the treatment options are much more like selecting from a buffet.
> 
> ...


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n poos. Your info is invaluable. My boy has no sores no scaling no cristo Ed’s no scabs only discoloration and hair loss. I had my groomer take him down to nothing all over his head and body and I’m sick over it. His head is raw where there’s no hair and there’s a small bald spot on his chest and a reddish area in his back. She did an oil soak followed by medicated shampoo. He looks and feels miserable as do I his coat was never dry snd brittle or flaky. Did I see what I thought was some follicular casting? Yes. I have read on the SA site that there’s a trigger for this disease— diet, allergies, etc. I thought it was a genetic disorder. I’m out of my league with all the therapies products and various home remedies. You are right about everything you have said. Now I’m second guessing myself if any of the steps I’ve already taken— major steps for me—- were even necessary. My last step is holistic vet a week from Tuesday— earliest I could get in —-
After assessing what she has to say, I will decide if I am going to return him to breeder
My husband says he will not let this consume me and so far it has. I am sick over this. Cristo is not himself. 
the problem is no professional I’ve seen can say that it is SA AND HAVENT SEEN IT IN ANY STAGE BUT AWFUL.
I BOUGHT THE JOJOBA OIL THE SKOUTS HONOR PROBIOTIC SHAMPOO AND THE GLYCOL WHATEVER STUFF TO SPRAY ON HIS COAT. BUT WHAT AM I SPRAYING? HIS BALDING HEAD AND DISCOLORED HAIR ON HIS HEAD IS IT!!!
Yes I wish Tyspoodles had responded because her dog sounded like cristo snd she did spot treatment only. People post all these baths and ingredients and then conclude with oh yeah, she’s been on cyclosporine for years and has blood tests each month to monitor it and so on. So, what’s really helping the dog? The oral med! I’m not going the cyclosporine route. I’ll reread all the very helpful information youve given me and thank God that you read my mind I’ll have him oiled and bathed for 6 weeks straight. I will try a different diet I will use supplements But I am sorry and regret that I instructed my groomer to take him down to nothing, from a full show coat that was excellently maintained for 4 years to this. Stupidity on my part.
Btw. I cannot find the duoxo seborrhea shampoo anywhere only one called SEB 3 for odor control I’ve been to 4 pet supply stores and online. Maybe they’ve changed the bottle or the name—dk
Another woman Diane kiltgaard sent me a pic and I cannot locate that particular shampoo. Again I truly can’t thank you enough. Such interest and kindness from a total stranger.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hang on, we've got you, ma'am!

Let's brake this down and then break it down.

Last first, we're not strangers. To paraphrase the time honored etiquette mavens "the Poodle constitutes the introduction".



Zippy said:


> I had my groomer take him down to nothing all over his head and body and I’m sick over it.


Many times you've referred to Cristo's coat and after seeing it (with your permission I'll post the photos you shared with me), yes, it's glorious, stunning, BUT the coat is NOT Cristo. Cristo is still right there in front of you. I know you don't mean it this way but anyone just reading this in passing would think that was all you cared about.

Cristo has a skin condition and nothing more. A difficult one, granted, but it is only skin deep. If you had a child with acne, you couldn't respond by focusing on how they looked before, you'd focus on how to help them get thru it.

Now you may wonder how and why I think I can speak this way, how can I know how this feels. Well, I kinda do.

This was my hair the day before I started chemo.

















This is what I looked like after (apologies to Mr Howard. He has more hair in this photo than I did.)









I'm not kidding. When I looked in the mirror, that's who I saw. I never took a photo of myself without hair because I knew I'd never forget. I also never let my husband see me without a covering. Vanity? Absolutely, but it was still me.
Just as hard was giving up the superfluous body part. I almost backed out of the surgery, even to save my life, but sense returned, and I'm still here.

So, my point being, I understand the shock of having to change perceptions.



Zippy said:


> He looks and feels miserable as do I


Exactly!!! So long as you are so focused on his looks and your unhappiness, it's that much harder for Cristo since he's taking his cues from you. Poodles are very in tune with their owners emotions and he's likely feeling that he's let you down. You must try to move past how he looks and keep your focus on how to help him.

Cutting down his coat was the very best thing you could do, to make this process easier for all. If you'd been able to let go of the Coat, it's quite possible that Cristo would have danced with relief, getting all that hair off. I sometimes let my boys grow out a bit too far for the season and when I take them back down, there is so much joy in Mudville, think Snoopy Happy Dance.










------------------------------




Zippy said:


> I have read on the SA site that there’s a trigger for this disease— diet, allergies, etc. I thought it was a genetic disorder.


Which SA site was that? There is a genetic component to SA but it's not a single, identifiable gene. It's a complex collaboration between certain, still unidentified, genes.

A trigger is not a cause. It's something that "opens" or "releases" the genetic component which had been in check prior.

_SA is generally considered to be a dermatological condition not existing clinically prior to the early 1980s, and reviews of banked histopathological tissues have not revealed any evidence of SA.4, 5_

Something got into the henhouse in that timeframe and started affecting Spoos and more than a few other breeds, but primarily spoos, akitas, english springer spaniels, and samoyeds.

_ The disease is a generalized skin disorder associated with an attack by the dog’s own immune system against the sebaceous glands.

How do healthy Standard Poodles from the USA relate to dogs with Addison’s disease (AD) or Sebaceous adenitis (SA). 
A PCA plot was done with healthy and diseased Standard Poodles only from the USA. Miniature Poodles and crosses were removed. Once again, it is apparent that most Standard Poodles from the US form a cluster near the center of the plot, with outliers of less genetic relationship extending in various directions, but mainly to the right. Standard Poodles suffering from AD and SA cluster only with the closely related dogs in the center of the plot and to a much less extent with genetic outliers. T*his is one proof that inbreeding for desired conformational traits has inadvertently allowed for positive selection of the genetic traits responsible for AD and SA. It also indicates the need to increase genetic diversity in the breed.*_



Zippy said:


> no professional I’ve seen can say that it is SA


The only way to *diagnose* *definitively *SA or the other similar skin conditions is by the punch biopsy. Anything else is just looking and quacking like a duck.



Zippy said:


> I’m second guessing myself if any of the steps I’ve already taken— major steps for me—- were even necessary.


If you ask my opinion, yes they were and are. Even without the diagnosis, treating the skin symptomatically by proper cleaning and replacing the moisture lost is necessary.



tyspoodles said:


> before you consider re-homing, try the simplest first, then move up. My girl is happy and healthy - she just is occasionally missing hair. Don't be intimidated by all the different opinions. There's a lot that you can do that isn't necessarily expensive or hugely time consuming.


Try this link to open a private conversation with tyspoodles








Poodle Forum







www.poodleforum.com







Zippy said:


> My last step is holistic vet a week from Tuesday— earliest I could get in —-
> After assessing what she has to say, I will decide if I am going to return him to breeder


I know many folks here stand by their holistic vets. I can only say that I wouldn't take that assessment for my final decision. Practically everything I've seen suggests that this is a treatable condition and you have the treatment options already. Some of them I think could be considered holistic since the treatment plan you're following is considering the whole Cristo.

Pick any one of the shampoos that help the skin release any stuck on crud.
Pick an oil to soak his skin to restore the moisture
Pick another shampoo to remove excess oil from his coat
Pick a conditioner to retain the moisture
Pick a frequency to do these steps.

This will sound harsh, and I hope by now you know I have yours and Cristo's best interests at heart, but you have hard decisions to make.

Your question comes back to, can you live with this condition and the things that will need to be done? Cristo can.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hang on, we've got you, ma'am!
> 
> Let's brake this down and then break it down.
> 
> ...


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n poos. I don’t know when I’ve read such an understanding but firm and knowledgeable advice. You are right about coat. I’ve always loved the various grooming patterns, have always had my dogs at the groomer every 2 weeks without fail. Also you are right. He did run full tilt today, loving his greyhound speed unencumbered by hair. I can do the protocol because my groomer is willing to do it for me (I’m paying of course). I have ordered several products after having read so many many protocols and have gone with ones used by the majority, especially ones that aren’t dealing with crusty sores and oozing skin. We aren’t there yet and I pray we don’t get to that condition. I will keep on with him until I can’t and as long as he’s eating and loving life. 
im not confident about the dermatologist who could only recommend cyclosporine, however. Yes I understand about the punch biopsies but I cannot go through that emotionally right now and an inconclusive result would be the worst.

on another note: I was an English teacher for 31 years. Your written conversation, choice of vocabulary, and your ability to phrase your thoughts and communicate as you do are quite impressive. 
I-am moved by your willingness to share your personal and painful experience re your health and subsequent loss of your glorious hair I know I was at a particularly low point when I posted to you and no one else. My mind immediately went to you because you seemed to understand and empathize but also urged me to refrain from a pity party
I am adjusting to the circumstances, although I know I lack something definitive. It does puzzle me that the follicular castings, scale and dandruff are absent after 2 baths. I’m hoping this is a positive sign. 
as I said before, I wish you lived next door. 
don’t abandon me. Keep me in line. I love my boy.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Zippy said:


> Rose n poos. I don’t know when I’ve read such an understanding but firm and knowledgeable advice. You are right about coat. I’ve always loved the various grooming patterns, have always had my dogs at the groomer every 2 weeks without fail. Also you are right. He did run full tilt today, loving his greyhound speed unencumbered by hair. I can do the protocol because my groomer is willing to do it for me (I’m paying of course). I have ordered several products after having read so many many protocols and have gone with ones used by the majority, especially ones that aren’t dealing with crusty sores and oozing skin. We aren’t there yet and I pray we don’t get to that condition. I will keep on with him until I can’t and as long as he’s eating and loving life.
> im not confident about the dermatologist who could only recommend cyclosporine, however. Yes I understand about the punch biopsies but I cannot go through that emotionally right now and an inconclusive result would be the worst.
> 
> on another note: I was an English teacher for 31 years. Your written conversation, choice of vocabulary, and your ability to phrase your thoughts and communicate as you do are quite impressive.
> ...


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n poos. I should’ve added how articulate you are and obviously quite familiar with SA. 
QUESTION: do we bathe first and then oil and then bathe again and then spray with moisturizer? I may have missed the first bath protocol. We were starting with the oil soak to dislodge scales and dandruff and any castings. I’m going to post pics as soon as my granddaughter can help me. 
I owe you.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Thank you for your kind words .

There is no owing among poodle friends and it's obvious that you love him dearly. No one takes a poodle for grooming every two weeks if they don't love that huge poodle puff.

I think you may have transferred your worry to the tangible, his coat, because you're not sure how to get thru this. Whatever you feel you may be lacking, you'll gain it and trust yourself to get you and Cristo thru this.

1/ Of the several protocols I copied, more seem to recommend a shampoo first, a shampoo with keratolytic (removes the excess scale) or keratoplastic (normalize the basal layer by slowing down the turnover) properties. This is going to prepare his skin by removing whatever might be building up and/or normalizing the skin. Many of these veterinary shampoos have both those properties along with other desired ingredients.

2/ Next is the oil treatment, initially a bath or soak and moving to spot spraying after a few weeks. This will replace the oils missing from the lack of the sebaceous glands not functioning properly due to the autoimmune attack on his system.

3/ After the oil, another bath to remove excess oil. This is where the degreasing type of dishwashing soap comes in. There are also canine shampoos formulated to remove the excess oil. These will be different from the keratolytic/keratoplastic. I see regular canine shampoos mentioned here but they may need to be repeated in the same session to get the excess oil out.

4/ Next is the moisturizing/humectant conditioning treatment rinse/spray. This is to keep his hair conditioned after the oil removal and add a moisturizing layer over his skin to keep the moisture in.

5/ the glycol spray can be used a couple of times a week at home, just to add moisture to his skin in between the full protocol.

That completes the weekly full bath protocol. This is what I think I'd start with for my own. The recommendation to do this for 4-6 weeks makes sense to me. If the sebaceous glands are still present, this could help them recover (layman's terms).

After those 4-6 weeks of these steps, assess how he's doing. If he's showing clearing up of the areas, you can consider lessening the frequency of the full protocol but adding more in-between moisture sprays at home. Alternatively, if clearing, possible the first shampoo could be skipped and go straight to the oil. all steps after the first weeks will depend on how he's doing, so too soon to make decisions there.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Regarding step 1 and before you start freaking out  I should tell you, if you haven't already sussed this out about me, I not only cross bridges before coming to them, I look for alternate routes, and investigate what it might take to build another, jic.

The survey study quoted above somewhere makes the observation that the oil bath seems to be the most bang for buck, with the attendant shampoo and conditioner after.

You've already done 2 oil treatments if I remember correctly, so if he's holding steady, I think you could skip the step 1 bath and go to the oil soak as your first step.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> Regarding step 1 and before you start freaking out  I should tell you, if you haven't already sussed this out about me, I not only cross bridges before coming to them, I look for alternate routes, and investigate what it might take to build another, jic.
> 
> The survey study quoted above somewhere makes the observation that the oil bath seems to be the most bang for buck, with the attendant shampoo and conditioner after.
> 
> You've already done 2 oil treatments if I remember correctly, so if he's holding steady, I think you could skip the step 1 bath and go to the oil soak as your first step.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n poos. I looked into the keratolux shampoo which would be first bath. Then oil soak— I have jojoba—- then probiotic shampoo with built in conditioner, skouts honor. Then I ordered the spray propylene glycol sp? To use to spray several times between baths. The first shampoo is pretty expensive for a 16oz bottle, but if it’s necessary I’ll get it by the gallon. I found another small spot on his chest with the follicular castings which I tried to rub off with oil. My doing this bothered him. So does the oil soak loosen these things and make them come off in the bath that follows? That’s what I was counting on, but dk. My groomer stays in touch with a woman in GA that is helping her friend with 2 poodles with SA WHO SEEM TO BE MUCH WORSE THAN CRISTO AND IM PRETTY DEPENDENT ON MY GROOMER TO ADMINISTER THE REGIMEN EACH WEEK. 
AS YOU HAVE SAID THIS IS A TRIAL AND ERROR EXPERIENCE BECAUSE ALL DOGS RESPOND DIFFERENTLY. 
BTW, WHAT DO YOU FEED YOUR DOGS.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I ran across this good quick description of what happens in SA.










*WHAT IS A SEBACEOUS GLAND?*
Everyone has heard skin described as “dry,” “oily,” or “normal” referring to the amount of natural oil on the skin surface.
The oils of the skin are important moisturizers (holding water inside the skin and preventing its evaporation).
The oil also acts as a protection barrier keeping irritants or even infectious organisms off the skin cells below.
Of course, at this point there is more to this barrier that just skin oil; it has mixed with sweat, proteins, even the dead cells of the upper most layer of skin cells but it is the oil that concerns us with regard to sebaceous adenitis.
These oils come from the “sebaceous glands” of the hair follicle.
Oils are secreted into the follicle, the small hole from which a hair grows. The oil makes its way out of the follicle and onto the skin surface and hair.








*Normal hair follicle*
(original graphic by marvistavet.com)
 

*SEBACEOUS ADENITIS MEANS INFLAMMATION OF THE SEBACEOUS GLANDS *



In early stages of sebaceous adenitis skin biopsies show glands in the throes of the inflammatory process. In later stages, the inflammation has more or less destroyed the glands so they are simply absent.
If the inflammation is still active, there is some chance at saving at least some of the glands.
No one knows what causes sebaceous adenitis but we know that certain breeds are predisposed (which means there is a genetic component.).
In the Standard Poodle, sebaceous adenitis is definitely a recessive genetic trait, though not all dogs who are genetically able to express the disease will actually go on to actually express the disease.

*TREATMENT*

The inflammation that destroyed (or is destroying) the sebaceous glands must be stopped. 
Further, new hair growth depends on a coat of sebum (skin oil) so if the patient's skin is not making adequate skin oil, the oil must be replaced.

--------------



Zippy said:


> So does the oil soak loosen these things and make them come off in the bath that follows?


The oil added by the bath, soak, or spray helps restore the moisture but isn't replenished continually as it would be naturally. 

The properties of the keratolytic/keratoplastic shampoos sort of clear the decks by getting some of that stuck material cleaned off that's no longer removed by natural replenishment and makes the oil bath more effective. 

The oil soak will help with loosening scales and castings to be gently scrubbed out with the shampoo after, but I'd expect the overall result to be better by using the kera shampoo first. 


So, yes, I'd say that the oil bath will help with removing the casts and whatever else but using the kera shampoo first would likely be more effective than the oil bath alone. 

If your groomer is up for adding that step for a few baths, I'd try it to see if you start seeing a reduction. 

--------------

I feed my boys Purina Pro Plan, small breed for them . I chose it not only due to recommendations here, but also because I'd learned why it's important to give food that's been formulated by veterinary nutritionists so the food meets correct balanced nutrition. They also get what I call "last bite" from whatever protein we had for dinner. I shred about a teaspoon of the chicken/beef/pork, add a bit of veggies then sprinkle it over their kibble, then add an ounce or so of warm water to au jus it up. I do the same for their first meal of the day, except they get leftovers .


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Zippy said:


> Rose n poos. Your info is invaluable. My boy has no sores no scaling no cristo Ed’s no scabs only discoloration and hair loss. I had my groomer take him down to nothing all over his head and body and I’m sick over it. His head is raw where there’s no hair and there’s a small bald spot on his chest and a reddish area in his back. She did an oil soak followed by medicated shampoo. He looks and feels miserable as do I his coat was never dry snd brittle or flaky. Did I see what I thought was some follicular casting? Yes. I have read on the SA site that there’s a trigger for this disease— diet, allergies, etc. I thought it was a genetic disorder. I’m out of my league with all the therapies products and various home remedies. You are right about everything you have said. Now I’m second guessing myself if any of the steps I’ve already taken— major steps for me—- were even necessary. My last step is holistic vet a week from Tuesday— earliest I could get in —-
> After assessing what she has to say, I will decide if I am going to return him to breeder
> My husband says he will not let this consume me and so far it has. I am sick over this. Cristo is not himself.
> the problem is no professional I’ve seen can say that it is SA AND HAVENT SEEN IT IN ANY STAGE BUT AWFUL.
> ...


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

I will hope she will add that step. If not, then I’ll have to continue as we have. I have purchased the product necessary for the first step. No one has the duomo seborrhea med in stock. There’s an odor fighting one but that isn’t it. Yes I feed mine the purina pro plan salmon and rice and have at vets recommendation, BUT am a little leery since my vet sells it. I have been moderately satisfied with it.
I began adding virbac’s omegaderm liquid to his food last night 
More spots becoming visible. 
thanks again fir your support


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Rose n poos. It has just occurred to me that the spots where follicular castings can be seen are not the only places where the affected dog loses hair. They lose hair all over their body. I am now seeing more and more skin, both pink and dark, on legs, chest , head and hips. How I missed this with all the conversations and explanations of the disease, I don’t know. I read that with cyclosporine the percentages of restoring function of the sebaceous glands is much higher than not using it. I am not going that route I will see the holistic vet; I will continue the baths and soaks, but if there’s no improvement, then yes, I’ll be faced with decisions I did not want to make.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Your situation does sound heartbreaking. Bathing a healthy full sized spoo monthly is physically more demanding than a lot of people can manage. I can't imagine doing it twice as often with oil treatments as well.

Forgive me if I missed it, but what was the reason you felt rehoming Christo is a better option than trying cyclosporine?


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

cowpony said:


> Your situation does sound heartbreaking. Bathing a healthy full sized spoo monthly is physically more demanding than a lot of people can manage. I can't imagine doing it twice as often with oil treatments as well.
> 
> Forgive me if I missed it, but what was the reason you felt rehoming Christo is a better option than trying cyclosporine?


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Cow pony 
I would not subject him to The side effects associated with cyclosporine; my vet’s reaction to using it was negative; the people on the sebaceous adenitis FB rarely use it, and if they have, they warn against it. My dermatologist said Cristo would be on it for life. I feel my breeder is the only one who will take him ( and she may not) with this condition I have bought several recommended products in trying my best to give him the best possible chance for remission without adding cyclosporine I am 72 and unable to bathe , oil, degrease, and dry in my home. My groomer is being paid to treat him each week for 6 weeks straight. I see a holistic vet next week who will prescribe a raw diet I feel confident. His head appears raw. His chest is thinning snd he has been groomed to 1/2” if that. He has been bathed and groomed every 2-3 weeks for 4 years without fail. My previous standards were also. Cristo is from a topnotch line. Obviously, SA doesn’t play favorites I never dreamed this could happen to him. I see now that using the term re home is not going to happen. I seriously doubt anyone would take on this labor intensive therapy and cost for a dog with whom he has no history
and then there’s the very real possibility of a secondary infection. If I sound pretty wrecked, I am. My husband is warning me that I’m consumed by this and he’s right. I’m worried about where cristo and I will be in 6 weeks and then what? Watching his condition worsen is devastating to me. 
poodle forum members and the SA group are wonderful people who are sincerely interested in helping and for that I am so grateful. Thank you for reaching out. I’m certain this response is more than you expected, but this is the reality of it for me.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

@Zippy, you mention he’s itchy now. Could this actually be a bacterial infection or even an environmental or dietary allergy? 

By pursuing SA treatment without a diagnosis, it’s possible topical applications could be doing more harm than good. Peggy’s sensitive skin would absolutely not tolerate some of what’s been described here.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

It sounds as though biopsy is an important part of the treatment process...

“_In early stages of sebaceous adenitis skin biopsies show glands in the throes of the inflammatory process. In later stages, the inflammation has more or less destroyed the glands so they are simply absent from the biopsy sample. Knowing the stage of the disease is very important in determining what therapy will help: if the inflammation is still active, there is some chance at saving at least some of the glands._”






Sebaceous Adenitis - Mar Vista Animal Medical Center


Sebaceous glands of the hair follicle are the glans that produce oils of the skin that act as important moisturizers. Sebaceous Adenitis is the inflammation of these glands. Knowing the stage of the disease is very important in determining what therapy will help.




www.marvistavet.com


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

PeggytheParti. I have seen the follicular castings in several places on him. He is losing hair on and around these places. Punch biopsies on his tender head and ears? And with often inconclusive results with the need to repeat? And, no topical treatment while the biopsies heal The dermatologist said he was 80% positive. Unfortunately, I have to agree. The dermatologist told me he would be on cyclosporine for life. I know I will not do that. Sure, he could have a secondary infection, too. 
mad far as the topicals, I’m using jojoba oil soaks and skouts honor probiotic shampoo, both of which
Are pretty standard for any skin condition. I have not begun the sulphuric or salicylic acid products and doubt I will. The refusal to do the biopsies may seem unwise, but I cannot put him through the procedure and the healing process. Additionally, getting the biopsy to the “right” lab is another factor as is “punching” in just the right spot snd hoping it’s in the inflammation stage. I simply don’t have that much confidence in this procedure.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I don’t wish to overwhelm you. As someone who was misdiagnosed for much of her life, I just want to make sure you’re staying open and hopeful. Casts can be related to other disorders:


“Follicular casts are accumulations of keratin and follicular material that adheres to the hair shaft extending above the surface of the follicular ostia. Essentially this is scaling of the hair follicle that apparently is associated with failure to desquamate or exfoliate away from the hair shaft. It is a primary lesion in vitamin A-responsive dermatoses, primary seborrhea, and sebaceous adenitis. Follicular casts may be secondary lesions in demodectic mange, dermatophytosis and pyoderma.

“Due to the high number of differential diagnosis associated with keratinization disorders a systematic clinical approach is needed.”






Approach to Keratinization Disorders in Small Animal - WSAVA 2015 Congress - VIN







www.vin.com





And while I do understand your hesitancy when it comes to invasive procedures, your boy is still so young. The discomfort of getting a proper diagnosis could mean a long, happy life for him with his favourite human.... You!


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I don’t wish to overwhelm you. As someone who was misdiagnosed for much of her life, I just want to make sure you’re staying open and hopeful. Casts can be related to other disorders:
> 
> 
> “Follicular casts are accumulations of keratin and follicular material that adheres to the hair shaft extending above the surface of the follicular ostia. Essentially this is scaling of the hair follicle that apparently is associated with failure to desquamate or exfoliate away from the hair shaft. It is a primary lesion in vitamin A-responsive dermatoses, primary seborrhea, and sebaceous adenitis. Follicular casts may be secondary lesions in demodectic mange, dermatophytosis and pyoderma.
> ...


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

PeggytheParti. Thank you so much for your encouraging info. After speaking with a relative who got through a much worse immune disorder with her cavalier, I’ve decided to see the holistic vet next Tuesday, and if a punch is recommended,I will ask that vet service to perform it. I am leary of the dermatologist I saw because of his general attitude and seeming lack of compassion as well as his solution: cyclosporine forever. And he never touched cristo. Thank you again. My meltdowns are getting to me


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m so happy your relative was able to help you decide on a path forward. And I think you’re right to trust your gut if that dermatologist didn’t even touch Cristo! Not good. 

Do you ever read Dr. Becker? I’m going to share an excerpt here that I hope you’ll re-read as necessary to stay encouraged:


_Since there are many skin diseases that have symptoms similar to sebaceous adenitis, they must be ruled out first. These include demodicosis (mange), dermatophytosis (a fungal skin infection), superficial pyoderma (a bacterial skin infection), primary seborrhea, follicular dysplasia and endocrine diseases such as hypothyroidism and Cushing's disease.

Your veterinarian will take a detailed history and perform a thorough physical exam. Skin cytology will be performed, along with skin scrapings, bacterial and fungal cultures, endocrine testing and possibly a skin biopsy to confirm the diagnosis. Sebaceous adenitis is primarily a cosmetic condition and usually doesn’t bother the affected pet unless there’s a secondary skin infection as well. The goal of treatment is to slow the progression of the disease and improve the condition of the skin.

Any pet with sebaceous adenitis should receive an oral omega-3 fatty acid supplementation every day. The recommended dose is 180 milligrams of combined eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) per 5 kilograms of body weight. I recommend an MSC-certified krill oil. In addition, vitamin A supplementation can be quite beneficial at 1,000 IU per kilogram of body weight, given orally once a day with a maximum dose of 20,000 IU per kilogram.

Schirmer tear tests should be performed on a regular basis since retinoids, including vitamin A, can alter the lipid content of the tear film, causing tears to evaporate faster, which can lead to dry eye. Dogs with mild cases should be bathed with a keratolytic shampoo, an emollient moisturizing rinse and a humectant every two to four days. This is very important — these dogs must be bathed very regularly.

Conventional treatments include propylene glycol sprays and mineral oil soaks. My nontoxic alternative to these treatments is a coconut oil skin treatment with added rosehip seed oil and argan oil, applied as a mask to the body and then shampooed out. There are a number of drugs that conventional veterinarians also use to treat sebaceous adenitis, including antibiotics (both tetracycline and doxycycline), steroids (prednisone), synthetic retinoids and cyclosporine.

Some of these drugs are necessary, but needless to say, I prefer to start with a natural, nontoxic approach, including a complete lifestyle overhaul that includes transitioning your dog to an anti-inflammatory, fresh food diet that is rich in skin-supporting antioxidants like vitamin C, beta-carotene, vitamin E and polyphenols.

Because of the autoimmune etiology of this disease, affected dogs should never be vaccinated. I strongly encourage you to have your veterinarian do immunologically responsible titers instead. A titer test is a blood test that confirms protective immunity against disease. A positive titer means your pet doesn’t need to be revaccinated. This is extremely important because with an immune-mediated condition like sebaceous adenitis, repetitive vaccines exacerbate the problem.

Prescription plant sterols, niacinamide (vitamin B3), high doses of vitamin C, collagen supplements, MSM and silica supplementation have all proven beneficial for dogs with sebaceous adenitis. Pets with the disease who are being managed with drugs should have their organ function checked regularly.









Itchy skin and thinning hair? Could be this disease


Seen in young and middle-aged dogs, this incurable autoimmune disease mimics other conditions that cause itchiness, scaly skin, dull coat and excess shedding.




healthypets.mercola.com




_
And if you do feel you’re in over your head, let’s get you connected to some poodle rescues that might be able to help. Animals with health conditions are regularly placed in homes that are able to meet their needs and poodles are _always_ in high demand. Just knowing this is an option might help you breathe a little easier. You’re not alone.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

PeggytheParti I should have mentioned that cristo’s coat was never dry and brittle and that I never saw flaky skin or dandruff— only the dark castings on his white hair and that rust colored hair on his head and ears— very rusty. I truly think it was the large amount of discolored hair that prompted the dermatologist’s diagnosis pre biopsy recommendation 
I did email SC POODLE RESCUE BUT RECEIVED NO RESPONSE GLAD I DID NOT AT THIS POINT


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rust coloured hair could signify a yeast infection.

What is Cristo eating? Have you changed his diet at all since this began? And can you share some photos of him? Is he clipped down short? I’d be streamlining his diet and grooming needs as much as possible until I had a diagnosis. Peggy used to have horrible reactions to her groomer’s shampoo, and it took almost a year of detailed note-keeping to make the connection. She also responds badly to glycerin, which hides in loads of treats, including those labelled “all natural.” That was a _really_ tough one to figure out, but once I did, the solution couldn’t have been easier.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

PeggytheParti My reg vet insisted no yeast no fungal no bacteria and it may not matter but he’s not smelly. Never has he been smelly. 
If I can possibly figure out sending pics I will
He has eaten purina pro plan salmon rice forever. My toy poo and rescue mix do too. I do put about 1/2 T olive oil on it daily. 
I do not feed him any fowl or beef. Sometimesbut very rarelyI split a scrambled egg with them. 
he looked totally fine in April May was a different story. But little spots or tiny pustules have been noted, always clearing up, since he was 2. 
my granddaughter may help with posting pics which I have on my iPhone.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Here’s your post from January 2020 for easy reference, in case the timeline is helpful to anyone who might have some advice:



Zippy said:


> I have a 2 year old white male standard purchased as show quality his coat was incredible—- dense and springy. He really felt like a sheep. I had him groomed every 3 weeks by highly recommended groomer. In October I noticed his armpits were bare of hair. Then I noticed thinning behind his ears and on topknot his skin on belly and head were bright pink. Two vets an anti fungal shampoo cytopoint injection and full blood panel work up that showed nothing later his hair has turned pink at the root. My beautiful boy’s coat has changed drastically. There is not dandruff nor scaling nor bumps nor pustules on his skin he is not itchy. My new groomer who once did my other poodle for 10 years is flabbergasted oh I changed his food too altho vet indicated no food allergy. Can anyone offer ideas or suggestions. Expensive dog dermatologist is next and I do not want a skin “punch” done on him



You mention his food was changed. From what? And did you change it before or after the issue first arose?

You also mention your vet ruled out allergies. How did they do that? It’s typically quite a long process. I ask because...

“_Allergies are a frequent trigger for hair loss in dogs. Like people, dogs can have an allergic reaction to foods, environmental triggers such as pollen, or to parasites like fleas or mites._”









Dogs and Bald Spots


Hair loss is common in dogs, but bare spots in his coat may be a sign of infection or disease. WebMD explains the symptoms of a condition you may need to treat.




pets.webmd.com





Just thinking aloud here. No need to even reply if this is all ground you’ve thoroughly covered.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

PeggytheParti








__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

He’s also losing hair above his eyes on eyelids. Last oil soak followed by shampoo yesterday. It seems there’s more pinkish brown areas ea day. Funny, it’s as if the once longer coat buffered him from all these areas. Probably not the case but interesting 
I have not begun the keratolytic shampoo yet because of the harsher ingredients it has. holistic vet Tuesday scratching his head and ears and sometimes his neck. Pigment variations visible. Light pink bright pink black gray.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

Zippy said:


> He’s also losing hair above his eyes on eyelids. Last oil soak followed by shampoo yesterday. It seems there’s more pinkish brown areas ea day. Funny, it’s as if the once longer coat buffered him from all these areas. Probably not the case but interesting
> I have not begun the keratolytic shampoo yet because of the harsher ingredients it has. holistic vet Tuesday scratching his head and ears and sometimes his neck. Pigment variations visible. Light pink bright pink black gray.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

PeggytheParti I hope you received the various photos of cristo taken outside today.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm glad you are going to get another opinion from your holistic vet on Tuesday. 

The brown spots on his neck are very interesting. Yeast infections are quite common in the ears, so I'm used to seeing rusty streaks in the hair leading out of the ear canal. I'm curious to hear what the vet says about them.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The photos are visible in the thread.

ETA Has Cristo been seen by the same vet each tie for these issues? What about the derm vet, same one each time?

Here's a lnk to your posts from the middle thread you started








Help! Skin problems with my Spoo


My male white standard’s head is turning the reddish pink color many dogs have from licking their fur. Obviously he can’t lick behind his ears and all over the bony part of his head. This starts on the skin snd radiates out. Surprisingly, he’s not itchy. I’ve tried topicals pharmaseb and tri...




www.poodleforum.com





Has any vet done any actual testing such as skin scrapings (this is not a biopsy) to check for some other surface causes, or blood work to check for possible thyroid imbalances?

ETA I see in the 2020 post that a "full blood panel" was run but showed nothing. Do you happen to remember exactly what tests were run within that panel?

PTP recently, and I earlier, mentioned the possibility of other causes but I don't remember reading of any sort of testing at all by any vet since this started. I think you said that he was about 2y old then.


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## Zippy (Jan 20, 2020)

I thought if I directed pics or conversation to a specific person it was not seen or read by everyone.
not that I care. Others’ viewpoints or suggestions are fine. I’m thinking at this point that the SA IS NOT THE ONLY ISSUE but that a secondary infection may be taking place. It seems the lines are bound to blur with this disease. Difficult to diagnose, difficult to treat TO ME, his skin and hair are getting worse I think everyone is probably a little sick of my being a crybaby. I’m sick of being a crybaby. I think the vet Tuesday may be able to shed some light on this, but what Im wanting is an ah hah moment.

yes he did have skin scrapings a thyroid test and a blood panel —- scrapings by 2 different vets, including the dermatologist. My regular vet said no yeast 
I probably won’t begin the keratolytic shampoo which can be harsh until holistic vet sees him.
I know y’all are weary with me , but you all have been fantastic with your encouragement and input


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Zippy said:


> I thought if I directed pics or conversation to a specific person it was not seen or read by everyone.


Private conversations are started in a different way. Start by clicking on the avatar picture or name of the person you wish to communicate with which is to the left of the post.










You'll be taken to that person's profile page. Click on Start Conversation









A Conversation template will open









Any communications here are seen only by invited parties. In the forum jargon, Discussion is open to all, Conversation is by invitation and is seen only by the invited person or persons.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

What a beautiful boy. I’ll be awaiting Tuesday’s news. Good luck with the holistic vet.

And no, we never get weary of poodle talk. We’re here for you and Cristo, whenever you need us.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I hope you and Cristo get some helpful direction tomorrow. I'll be thinking of you both.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

How is Cristo doing, @Zippy?


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