# Labradoodle Breeding



## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

So I've decided to Breed my 8 mo Brown Standard to a Choclate Lab stud...*KIDDING!!!! * Sorry, I couldn't help it. 

Anyway, but seriously, a friend of a friend just got a labradoodle and of course thinks it's grand & will soon be it's own breed. So my friend, who is :rolffleyes: about the whole thing also, and I was discussing the whole doodle craze and I was wondering are people breeding these first-generation everytime? Or are they starting to breed labradoodle to labradoodle? If so, is there a different term or 'feeling' about those who are breed poodle to lab vs. doodle to doodle? I thought maybe some of the experts here would be able to answer my questions better than Dr. Google sending me to a bunch of doodle-loving sites. Thank you.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Lol, we would SHUN YOU! (I doubt it, because you wouldn't do that!)

I still don't see the craze.. y'know, I dreamed about doodles last night =/ (I seriously did..) with me asking the people what they liked about the breed, then telling them everything the liked was from the poodle and the high strung, crazy psycho behavior was from the lab.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Bella's Momma said:


> So I've decided to Breed my 8 mo Brown Standard to a Choclate Lab stud.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMG!!!! Please dont frighten me like that!!


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Bella's Momma said:


> So I've decided to Breed my 8 mo Brown Standard to a Choclate Lab stud....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't joke like that!!! :fish:


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> OMG!!!! Please dont frighten me like that!!


LOL, sorry. I felt funny putting something in here with this title and thought that is what people would immediately think I was going to do so then, of course, me being me I had to go with it. :bird: *snicker* I hearby swear on my poodleforum.com membership never to breed my beautiful poodle to anything, let alone retriever! Speaking of, she's limited registration anyway so we bought her knowing we are not 'supposed' to breed and that any offspring would not be registerable. But to go a step further, the contract states if they find out we're breeding to retrievers they have a right to take her back! I thought that was pretty cool. It's like, if you breed to a poodle we're pissed and you can't sell them as AKC, but you make some doodles and say good bye to your baby!

Okay, so ignoring my poor taste in humor, does anyone know the answer to my question? I'll edit my OP to take out the gap so I don't scare anyone else...


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Lol, we would SHUN YOU! (I doubt it, because you wouldn't do that!)
> 
> I still don't see the craze.. y'know, I dreamed about doodles last night =/ (I seriously did..) with me asking the people what they liked about the breed, then telling them everything the liked was from the poodle and the high strung, crazy psycho behavior was from the lab.


LOL. Well since my childhood "best friend" was a crazy high strung lab I should be offended, right? I was telling my friend how I just don't get it. I really don't. She said some people just don't like the idea of poodles. So my response is "Then get a lab!" Then she (though, again, NOT a doodle-lover) brought up the allergy aspect. You can't KNOW it's going to be a hypo-allergenic cross-breed anymore than you know what color eyes and hair your child will have. How is this not obvious to the allergy-suffering doodle-buyers? 

Okay, but this wasn't supposed to be another thread on how the Poodle Lovers don't "get" the Doodle-lovers...I was just curious on what people are doing with them.


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## Mercury's Mom (Dec 6, 2009)

There are several breeders who breed doodle to doodle and charge much more for these doodle dogs. I must admit that the second, third etc generation doodles are much more attractive and consistant in behavior, coat, and looks than the 1st generation muts. I still say that Id rather have the true breed though, why take the chance that some lab will get in there. People just seem to think that a true poodle is sissy and want to man them up (in my opinion) but we all know that a spoo can do anything a lab can plus 10x more. 

My boss has a 2nd gen goldendoodle who is very similar to a pure spoo because the mom was a goldendoodle but they bred it back to a pure spoo stud to maintain the non sheding factor. He paid $2000 for the dog. I just adopted Mercury for free and my boss is so jealous. My boy is a prince while his has been to the vet several times because he eats EVERYTHING (rocks, the couch, everything). He loves his doodle but says the next pup he gets will be a spoo.


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## puppylove (Aug 9, 2009)

There are all types of Doodle Breeders out there. Some claim that the first gens are healthier and that's all they breed. Some breed first gens back to poodles because they know that there is a better chance of no shedding. And then there are those who breed doodles to doodles claiming that produces consistency. 

The vast majority really know nothing about genetics and scientific breeding.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

There are a few different ways breeders are producing American Labradoodles.

F1 = 50% Labrador and 50% Poodle - This is Lab to poodle cross, this is first generation, resulting in healthier offspring! Hair type can be smooth like a Lab, wirey look like a Irish wolfhound or Wavy/shaggy, they can shed or not shed, pups in the same litter can vary. This is not the best cross for people with severe allergies.

F1-B = 25% Labrador Retriever and 75% Poodle (F1 Labradoodle and Poodle cross) - This is Labradoodle bred back to Poodle, Wavy Curly shaggy look doodle very consistent in coat types. F1B is the MOST likely of any to be non shedding and Allergy friendly then ANY doodles and is the easiest coat to take care of.

F2 = F1 Labradoodle and F1 Labradoodle cross - this combination you get the same percentage of Lab Poodle mix as you would an F1 Labradoodle so they are more likely to shed.

F3 = F2 Labradoodle and F2 Labradoodle cross

Multi-generation = F3 or higher generation Labradoodle and F3 or higher generation Labradoodle cross - This is what the Australian Labradoodles usually are.


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## Eklectic (Nov 9, 2009)

> Multi-generation = F3 or higher generation Labradoodle and F3 or higher generation Labradoodle cross - This is what the Australian Labradoodles usually are


I might be wrong but I thought I read somewhere that the Australian Labradoodles have a third breed in their "mix" to make it more "stable" and that they had been breeding them for over 35 years or something like that?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Bella's Momma said:


> LOL. Well since my childhood "best friend" was a crazy high strung lab I should be offended, right?


Oh I'm not trying to offend, I'm know they're great family dogs! It's just I, as a groomer, don't like being dragged all over the place by something a lot stronger than me because something looks more fun than getting nails done!


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Oh I'm not trying to offend, I'm know they're great family dogs! It's just I, as a groomer, don't like being dragged all over the place by something a lot stronger than me because something looks more fun than getting nails done!


LOL! I was kidding, your description was dead on. Since I was the child in the 'relationship' I had it pretty easy. My mom, OTOH, had to deal with her antics. Like the year she refused to enter the backyard from the living room to eat dinner so instead had to be taken through the garage to the backyard to eat her dinner. Or how every year she had to be drugged for the 4th of July and New Year's else she spend the entire holiday pacing the house trying to find someplace 'safe. '

She was a great buddy, though. Let me dress her up and paint her nails, too.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Oh okay! Hehe! I didn't realize. ^^ My bad!

Poor doggies afraid of fireworks and thunder. :c My dog could care less, however, if she hears a door bell ring or knocking on a door from the TV..


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

Oh yes, thunder too! 

Bella came home to us just before the 4th of July and I was really paranoid about it. Asked the breeder for all sorts of tips to keep her calm. She tried to tell me it would probably be okay and it was. Bella didn't bat an eyelash (kept her inside, though). She also seems impervious to doorbells and doorknocks. Hopefully burglars won't ring the bell first. LOL.


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

I think lab and goldendoodles can be very pretty, especially when groomed nicely to accent their features.

I would definitely adopt one or aquire one from a rehome situation but spending $1200 on one, no thanks!

I almost ended up with a goldendoodle instead of Vega from a rehome situation..so many people get this hyper breed and then can't handle them. Luckily the dog ended up going to live with another family member so they can still visit.

Was a beautiful dog though..and very good for grooming..just really hyper!


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Eklectic said:


> I might be wrong but I thought I read somewhere that the Australian Labradoodles have a third breed in their "mix" to make it more "stable" and that they had been breeding them for over 35 years or something like that?


I believe Cocker Spaniel was incorporated into the "Austalian Labradoodle."


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Aidan said:


> I think lab and goldendoodles can be very pretty, especially when groomed nicely to accent their features.
> 
> I would definitely adopt one or aquire one from a rehome situation but spending $1200 on one, no thanks!
> 
> ...


We have a doodle breeder in this area - the Mom is Black Silver Standard and the Dad is a Goldendoodle.... Thats how its listed. Very nice website. They are $800.00. I cannot believe people pay this or more and they are not even an even mix of the 2 breeds. I agree they are cute but...........no.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I believe Cocker Spaniel was incorporated into the "Austalian Labradoodle."


LOL - they added cocker spaniel to make it even more "stable"??? hahaha that boggles my mind!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Locket said:


> LOL - they added cocker spaniel to make it even more "stable"??? hahaha that boggles my mind!


Yeah.. I don't get how that makes sense either. :bird:


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Ahem...I owned two cocker spaniels in another life. LOL They both were hyper and very difficult to house train!! That would not be my first choice to mix into a breed!!
_


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _Ahem...I owned two cocker spaniels in another life. LOL They both were hyper and very difficult to house train!! That would not be my first choice to mix into a breed!!
> _


Don't they.. not age very well too? All the old cockers we get at the salon are literally falling apart.. half their weight is in tumors, they have oozing moles.. They just seem to take a tole on the years a lot worse than other breeds from my experience.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Locket said:


> LOL - they added cocker spaniel to make it even more "stable"??? hahaha that boggles my mind!


It doesn't make sense to me either. I wonder if the real reason is that a true crossbreed (a mix of only two breeds) can't ever be recognized, at least not by the AKC. I don't see any point to mixing in the cocker, but then I don't see the point of "doodles" either. I would guess that they use English Cockers which I assume don't have the as many issues as American Cockers either.


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## markfsanderson (Oct 25, 2009)

*Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble!*



thestars said:


> ... F1 = 50% Labrador and 50% Poodle - This is Lab to poodle cross, this is first generation, _resulting in healthier offspring_! . . . .


 "... resulting in healthier offspring!" - is there any scientific evidence to support this assertion? No offense intended towards those that assert this, but what studies verify this information (quantifiable, repeatable and statistically significant)? I've seen and heard these assertions "...mixed breeds are more healthy, because those breeders :wacko: 'inbreed' breed 'X' so much"? I'm not say that poor breeding practices don't affect a given breed in general, but I'm curious about the origins of such sweeping statements and where they come from. I wonder if any reputable animal health organization has done any real studies? I'm curious about the outcome . . . 

Regards,
Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

markfsanderson said:


> "... resulting in healthier offspring!" - is there any scientific evidence to support this assertion? No offense intended towards those that assert this, but what studies verify this information (quantifiable, repeatable and statistically significant)? I've seen and heard these assertions "...mixed breeds are more healthy, because those breeders :wacko: 'inbreed' breed 'X' so much"? I'm not say that poor breeding practices don't affect a given breed in general, but I'm curious about the origins of such sweeping statements and where they come from. I wonder if any reputable animal health organization has done any real studies? I'm curious about the outcome . . .


I'd say that Hybrid vigor is not only a myth, it is an outright lie! This last year on the Doodle boards I have seen Doodles at young ages with: Bloat, JRD, Epilepsy, Addisons, and Cancer. Plus, Doodles seem way more prone to serious allergies.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I'd say that Hybrid vigor is not only a myth, it is an outright lie! This last year on the Doodle boards I have seen Doodles at young ages with: Bloat, JRD, Epilepsy, Addisons, and Cancer. Plus, Doodles seem way more prone to serious allergies.


I agree!!! 

Also, you have to see what kind of stock these doodle breeders are using, neither are they good or the best example of the poodle breed. I've seen the doodle boards literally come out and ask which poodle breeders are selling to them (doodle breeders) all I've seen was BYBs and high volume dealers selling to them. Then there are a few that slip in cause they do not care if they have papers or not on their poodles. Poodle breeders have to beware because doodle breeders will lie or get brokers to buy for them.


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## Mercury's Mom (Dec 6, 2009)

I think it has much more to do with the quality of the parents that causes a healthier pup, whether or not its a pure bred or mixed breed pup. We are currently taking care of a peek a poo pup who is only 4 weeks old. The pup is to severly affected by a BAD underbite to nurse so we have been tube feeding him. The sire, the pekingese, has an underbite and passed onto his son. He has a lazy eye as well. I believe he may have bad knee joints as well because his legs dont move quite right. Time will tell. He is a sweet doodle, but did NOT get the best of both breeds, it seems he got the worst.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Yeah, like Mercury said, I would think that the puppy would inherit both the genetic diseases from both parents breeds.. not cancel them out.


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## Kingstontodd (Jul 15, 2009)

markfsanderson said:


> "... resulting in healthier offspring!" - is there any scientific evidence to support this assertion? No offense intended towards those that assert this, but what studies verify this information (quantifiable, repeatable and statistically significant)? I've seen and heard these assertions "...mixed breeds are more healthy, because those breeders :wacko: 'inbreed' breed 'X' so much"? I'm not say that poor breeding practices don't affect a given breed in general, but I'm curious about the origins of such sweeping statements and where they come from. I wonder if any reputable animal health organization has done any real studies? I'm curious about the outcome . . .
> 
> Regards,
> Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


You asked for studies on the health of mixed breed vs purebred, a quick pubmed search can find lots (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/). Here are a few:


^ A. Egenvall, B.N. Bonnett, P. Olson, Å. Hedhammar. Gender, age, breed and distribution of morbidity and mortality in insured dogs in Sweden during 1995 and 1996, The Veterinary Record, 29/4/2000, p. 519-57 

^ B.N. Bonnett, A. Egenvall, P. Olson, Å. Hedhammar. Mortality in Swedish dogs: rates and causes of death in various breeds, The Veterinary Record, 12/7/1997, S. 40 - 44) “Mongrels were consistently in the low risk category” (S. 41) 

^ G.J. Patronek, D.J. Walters, L.T. Glickman. Comparative Longevity of Pet Dogs and Humans: Implications for Gerontology Research, J. Geront., BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES, 1997, Vol 52A,No.3, B171-B178 quote (p. B173) 

^ H.F. Proschofsky et al., Mortality of purebred and mixed-breed dogs in Denmark, Preventive Veterinary Medicine, 2003, 58, 53-74 "Higher average longevity of mixed-breed dogs (grouped together). Age at death mixed-breeds Q1 8, Q2 11, Q3 13, purebreds 6, 10, 12"

You can access them from most university connections.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Ahh... A Doodle breeder has joined the conversation. 

Maybe you could go post these stats over on Doodle Kisses where the Doodle owners over there are dealing with Bloat, Epilepsy, Addisons, JRD, a bunch of really serious allergies and a myriad of training and temperament problems.

Rather than being healthier, Doodles seem to get all of the health issues of both their parent breeds. Plus, based on the owners comments on the different boards, Doodles are very difficult dogs to live with. Shame on Doodle breeders for passing these mixes off as being the Perfect pet!


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## Kingstontodd (Jul 15, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Ahh... A Doodle breeder has joined the conversation.
> 
> Maybe you could go post these stats over on Doodle Kisses where the Doodle owners over there are dealing with Bloat, Epilepsy, Addisons, JRD, a bunch of really serious allergies and a myriad of training and temperament problems.
> 
> Rather than being healthier, Doodles seem to get all of the health issues of both their parent breeds. Plus, based on the owners comments on the different boards, Doodles are very difficult dogs to live with. Shame on Doodle breeders for passing these mixes off as being the Perfect pet!


How would doodles get these issues if they were not also present in the purebred breeds as well. Their presence in doodles does nothing to support the argument against breeding doodles. The incidence of these diseases goes down as genetic diversity increases and mixing two seperate gene pools, the labrador and poodle, is one way to do that.

I am always surprised (not really) when purebred fanciers say shame on doodle breeders, especially when they are poodle people. Do they realize the toy poodle is a mixed breed including crosses to Bichon types, Maltese and Havanese, in its development? Can anyone else see the hypocracy there? 

I am not here to change anybodies mind, I just supplied links to answer a posters question.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Sorry Kings, but your argument just shows how little you actually know about dog breeds history and what process is involved in making an "actual breed".

EVERY dog breed that exists today was developed by very careful and selective breeding and also introduction of different breeds genetic fund to develop certain traits . Are than all breeds "mutts" LMAO ???? Of course not !!!! 

Irish Water Spaniel has Irish Seter and a poodle in his ancestry and some other breeds BUT when you breed IWS to IWS - you get IWS !!!! If you breed two "doodles" you get mutts - all puppies in one litter would come out different and if you would let them breed without very strict control to each other at the end you will end up with pups that look like labs and pups that look like poodles and alllll in between !!! So - a "doodle" is not even CLOSE to be any kind of a "breed" . They are mutts .... just as plain as that


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

You can't really compare purebreds with mix breeds, unless you details on those groups. Are the "mixed breeds, 1st generation "designer dogs", street dogs, or heinz 57 (dogs of completely unknown origin). Are the purebreds from well known show lines that health test, well known show lines that don't test, commercial kennels, backyard breeders or a mix. 

You can't say that "doodles" get their health issues from their purebred ancestors and argue hybrid vigor at the same time. If hybrid vigor worked, then "doodles" wouldn't have those issues. In addition to the issues Cbrand mentioned, HD seems to be rampant in "doodles." Which makes a lot of sense when you consider where the breeding stock comes from and the goals of the breeders. ($$$$)

And since you brought up the overused "every breed started somewhere" argument, what are you doing to make "labradoodles" into a breed? Do you belong to a breed club? Are you helping to develop a standard? What goals do you have for your breeding program?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Kingstontodd said:


> How would doodles get these issues if they were not also present in the purebred breeds as well. Their presence in doodles does nothing to support the argument against breeding doodles.


We're not saying they're not in the parents, we're saying that making a 'hybrid' dog doesn't make a healthier dog, it just breeds the problems of both parents into the dog. Yes, it does support the argument against breeding doodles because many doodle breeders claim their dogs are healthier when they're not.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Kingstontodd said:


> How would doodles get these issues if they were not also present in the purebred breeds as well. Their presence in doodles does nothing to support the argument against breeding doodles. The incidence of these diseases goes down as genetic diversity increases and mixing two seperate gene pools, the labrador and poodle, is one way to do that.


These health issues do exist in Poodles and Labs/Goldens, however, good purebred breeders spend years learning about structure, movement, temperament, working style and health issues in their breed. We work to breed away from problems by testing and studying pedigrees and knowing the lines we are breeding. Doodle breeders pick up dogs out of the newpaper or from puppymills and breed them willy nilly producing a mixed bag of structures, temperaments and health issues. It is no wonder that Doodle owners struggle so much with their dogs.

Hybrid vigor is a fallacy. Poodles and Retrievers share many of the same health issues: hips, eyes, epilepsy. In the case of Doodles, they seem to have MORE health issues than either parent breed. e.g. Doodles have terrible problems with allergies (inherited from Retriever... not seen so much in Poodles) and serious health disorders such JRD and Bloat (seen in Poodles but not often in Retrievers). Doodle breeders did a great job of producing a mix that is susceptible to all the health disorders of both parent breeds! 



> I am always surprised (not really) when purebred fanciers say shame on doodle breeders, especially when they are poodle people. Do they realize the toy poodle is a mixed breed including crosses to Bichon types, Maltese and Havanese, in its development? Can anyone else see the hypocracy there?



Are you sure about that? 


From the poodlehistory.org
*"The modern history of the Toy Poodle is a straight descent from the size of the standard and miniature poodles. Standards are 15 inches or more at the shoulder; miniatures under 15 inches. The Toy must never exceed 12 pounds. The standards for all three are identical except in the matter of size. The so-called 'White Cuban phase' of the breed is believed to have no influence on the present-day specimens. The dogs of the eighteenth century in England probably left few, if any, descendants."*
_The Complete Dog Book, new and revised edition (NY: Halcyon House, 1938; first published, 1935), book two, copyright American Kennel Club, pp. 663-5._

And more....
*19th century small North American Poodles*
*Please note that the earliest complete reference we have, as of 8/2000, for any Poodles in North America are the two small dogs Fin and Finette, brought from Montreal to Hamilton, Ontario in 1846 by Sir Allan Napier MacNab (1798-1862; Prime Minister of the United Canadas, 1854-1856), whose 35-room Dundurn Castle (1832-55) is now a house-museum. These were gifts to his two small daughters, the older, Sophia, wrote a diary which is one of the museum's treasures, and the portion which records the arrival of Fin and Finette is contained in The Surprise, Mel Bailey, ed., and is available from the museum (York Blvd., L8R 3H1). See also Poodle Lit. pre-1929, MacNab.

In an attempt to push back the 1846 date, we wrote to the National Archives of Canada, requesting a search of French records for references to "barbets" or "caniche" and received a reply, 12 May 2000, file #8188-2000-W/29404, listing an illustration of a corded Poodle (Nero, a German Corded-coat Poodle at the Berlin I International Dog Show) published in Canadian Illustrated News, 4 September 1880, p. 153; and a late 19th century trade card showing two Poodles pulling a shoe (accession #1985-61-126). 

Please also note that the Canadian Kennel Club stud books prior to 1900 contain references to small Poodles*



My evidence here shows that the Toy Poodle has been a recognized breed for well over a century and that the modern Toy is a bred down version of the Standard. So your attempt to legitimize Doodle breeding by saying that the Toy is a mix is mis-guided.


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## markfsanderson (Oct 25, 2009)

*Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics!*



Kingstontodd said:


> You asked for studies on the health of mixed breed vs purebred, a quick pubmed search can find lots (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/). Here are a few:
> 
> 
> ^ A. Egenvall, B.N. Bonnett, P. Olson, Å. Hedhammar. Gender, age, breed and distribution of morbidity and mortality in insured dogs in Sweden during 1995 and 1996, The Veterinary Record, 29/4/2000, p. 519-57
> ...


Kingstontodd,

Very interesting, but generally these studies are:


From small population European countries. The data quantity/quality in these studies are suspect, as they tend to show a very restricted data set. This would eliminate any chance at statistical signficance.
Clinical papers - there is no repeatability expressed or implied. Without independent repetition, they are useless scientifically.
There is no peer review that I can see for any of the first three - I gave up after these first three . . . .
The citations are incorrect or don't exist at all in the original paper. I could not find one of the quotes in the full text of the study. Either I'm looking in the wrong place (very possible) or it doesn't exist(not good).
Study not done by acknowledged scientific authority who is an animal biologist, DVM or some other such profession.
Specific clinical papers:


_"A. Egenvall, B.N. Bonnett, P. Olson, Å. Hedhammar. Gender, age, breed and distribution of morbidity and mortality in insured dogs in Sweden during 1995 and 1996, The Veterinary Record, 29/4/2000, p. 519-57" _I entered the title of this paper into google, and up came an interesting hit: Cockapoo in Wikipedia and Mixed Breed as well. It appears that 3 of the above "papers' also where cited in that article as 'proof'. EBSCO openurl had no information on this paper. I did find a number of sources that were willing to charge me $30.00 for the full text . . . This study seems to have been superseded by the following study, which seems to show that mutts have the the same problems as pure-bred dogs - wow! Hmm . . . looking closer, it appears that these are actually the same 'study' - buy maybe not . . . Its exactly the same authors, with exactly the same study from exactly the same country, kennel club and insurance company!
"_B.N. Bonnett, A. Egenvall, P. Olson, Å. Hedhammar. Mortality in Swedish dogs: rates and causes of death in various breeds, The Veterinary Record, 12/7/1997, S. 40 - 44) “Mongrels were consistently in the low risk category” (S. 41)_". The full text article is available here. This citation is most amusing for a couple of reasons:
The quote _“Mongrels were consistently in the low risk category” exists nowhere in this article._
_No peer review, no repetition of results.
_
The article groups all "mongrels" together in one big pot . . . nothing about maybe "weight range", "terrier type", etc. The weight and background of the "mongrel". But such as it is, lets see some actual quotes from this article:
"_Many breeds were at increased risk of death from locomotor problems, but springer spaniels, mongrels and poodles had a significantly decreased risk._" *By George, I think I like these guys - this MUST be scientifically accurate because it feels good!*:fish: *This is counter-revolutinary - I'll have to whip out my Che Guevera hat and dance a jig!*
_"The miniature breeds (poodle and dachshund), the two retriever breeds and mongrels were at decreased risk." _*Wow - this is a real shock! 
*
 
 
_"G.J. Patronek, D.J. Walters, L.T. Glickman. Comparative Longevity of Pet Dogs and Humans: Implications for Gerontology Research, J. Geront., BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES, 1997, Vol 52A,No.3, B171-B178 quote (p. B173)"_ This is a hoot . . . I'm not sure where to start with what is wrong with this citation:
"BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES" did not (originally) publish this article; in fact I can find no reference anywhere to it being a scientific journal. It was originally published by "The Journals of Gerontology". Is that what is meant by the abbreviation "J. Geront."? Huh? a journal for studying the aging process is used as proof of mutts being healthier than pure bred dogs? Why was the name abbreviated? Was this to de-emphasize an obvious authority issue? No insult intended, but Gerontology and animal biology are not the same thing - and authority is an issue in this case.

What does "quote (pB173)" really mean? This is certainly not a MLA approved citation by any stretch! I have to pay money to this organization to get the study . . . I don't think so!

The sample group is way too small! No statistical significance . . . and not repeated anywhere by peers
This abstract repeats the obvious :: most mutts are small dogs, small dogs live longer than big dogs. But read a bit further in the abstract and they plainly state that _"The difference between the standardized physiological ages of mixed breed dogs of the same chronological age in the smallest and largest body weight categories varied from 8 to > 15 years, and between large and small pure breed dogs, the disparity was even greater." * NEWSFLASH: *_*that's right folks - you read it here first - big dogs die before small ones.*
 
I could find no instance of peer review in any of these studies. I stopped after the first three, because looking critically at these citations clearly shows that using these as 'proof' is bunk. This is also why no professor worth a -beep- will let you use Wikipedia as a direct citation.

I couldn't help it, so I looked at the last citation . . . Here is a bit of the abstract:

_"The median age at death for all dogs in the study was 10.0 years. Mixed-breed dogs had a higher median age at death (11.0 years) than the entire population, but breeds like Shetland Sheepdog, Poodle and Dachshund exceeded this age (12 years)."_

Assuming this abstract is gospel truth, this begs the question - why would I create a dog 'breed' that will die before the dog breed that was used to create this 'breed'? If mutts don't live as long as poodles - what's the point? Any claims of being healthier is a non-sequitor.



> _Hmm . . . come to think of it . . .at 2 grand a mutt pup, I might find me some bogus science as well too! Uhh yeah . . .uhh Labradoodles rulz!_ Sorry . . . I just couldn't help it . . . I'm just kidding folks . . .


Please - some kind of proof by real science and not "because it makes me feel good" would be greatly appreciated. I find it hard to believe that no American study was done . . . well I haven't found one yet . . . Anyone know where such a study can be found?

Hot Damn! I love these scientists - especially the ones I agree with!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Ahh Poodles..... the thinking person's dog.


Mark, have I told you that I practically have a fetish for smart men who own poodles? Winston Churchill owned poodles, little known fact (Rufus and Rufus II though the II was silent).


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## markfsanderson (Oct 25, 2009)

*I'm a Knee Knocking Knuckle Dragging Cretin . . . compared to my poodles!*

CBrand, 
Thanks for the compliment and kind words! The only problem with poodles is that they often times outsmart you! You got to try to keep one step ahead ( good luck )!

Kingstontodd,
Merde, et aucune réponse ?!

Warm Regards,
Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

-claps-

anyone who is foolish enough to put ANY substance in that "proof" probably shouldn't be owning a poodle...let alone an offshoot of one
o.o 

did anyone notice the complete avoidance whether or not they were a doodle breeder?! xDD


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## Mercury's Mom (Dec 6, 2009)

I am all for adopting mixed breed dogs as much as I am for people adopting a pure bred dog...but spending a lot of money to BUY a mixed breed dog? That is a horse of a different color. There are so many labradoodles in shelters and rescues that I find it rediculous that someone would go to a "breeder" and pay a few thousand for one. They do not have a standard because each and every doodle is different in coat texture, sheding, how much they do or dont cause allergies, size, shape, temperment, energy level, etc. It took who knows how long to make the poodle consisiant, to make the poodle a breed and Im sure it was the same for other breeds as well. It takes dedication, forming their own kennel clubs, working with other breeders, making a standard to strive for etc. The doodles are often bred from poor stock as said and dogs who dont even fit the standard of their own breed. Yes there may be doodle breeders who use top of the line parents and who do testing but most just crank out pups to get $. Ive noticed that pretty much all the doodle breeders tout the qualities of the two pure breeds they are mixing, so why not just breed labs and spoos to labs and spoos and not to each other?

I can not speak for other areas but around here there are free labs in the paper daily and sometimes free doodles because labs dont learn as quickly, are more distructive, and take a lot more attention than people expect so after the puppy cuteness goes away so do the dogs. I have never once seen a standard poodle in a situation like that in the paper. Almost everytime someone gets a spoo they keep it for life, of course it could be different elsewhere. Most of the spoos I see in rescues seem to have been rescued from mills. I have nothing against labs but around here they are a dime a dozen and they generally are of different sizes, head shapes etc. Byb of labs are all over the place here, it's pretty sad. Anyhoo, thats related but not my point. For a while there, labradoodles were the it thing, now they are getting dumped left and right because the dogs are just NOT what the breeders said they were. Its a sad situation for the dogs. The breeders say they dont shed or cause allergies but its a draw, some do some dont just like an other mutt someone could adopt from the pound, some have a sparse terrier like coat some have a cottony coat tha needs constantaly brushed and groomed. If someone wants a dog with poodle like qualities but doesn't want to be seen with a "sissy" dog, first they need to find out why they are so unsure of their masculinity and then get themselves a real dog, a standard poodle, and even clip it lik a retreaver if they feel the need.

If someone wants a mutt there are SO many out there who deserve a loving home, and if someone wants the traits which come from a certain pure bred dog, they should get a dog that will for sure have it. The pure bred dog.


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## artsycourtneysue (Jul 21, 2009)

cbrand said:


> These health issues do exist in Poodles and Labs/Goldens, however, good purebred breeders spend years learning about structure, movement, temperament, working style and health issues in their breed. We work to breed away from problems by testing and studying pedigrees and knowing the lines we are breeding. Doodle breeders pick up dogs out of the newpaper or from puppymills and breed them willy nilly producing a mixed bag of structures, temperaments and health issues. It is no wonder that Doodle owners struggle so much with their dogs.
> 
> Hybrid vigor is a fallacy. Poodles and Retrievers share many of the same health issues: hips, eyes, epilepsy. In the case of Doodles, they seem to have MORE health issues than either parent breed. e.g. Doodles have terrible problems with allergies (inherited from Retriever... not seen so much in Poodles) and serious health disorders such JRD and Bloat (seen in Poodles but not often in Retrievers). Doodle breeders did a great job of producing a mix that is susceptible to all the health disorders of both parent breeds!
> 
> ...


Agreed!!!! AND the info was actually backwards... it is shown to be much more likely that the bichon was developed from poodles/maltese, etc.....the poodle is much older...


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

artsycourtneysue said:


> Agreed!!!! AND the info was actually backwards... it is shown to be much more likely that the bichon was developed from poodles/maltese, etc.....the poodle is much older...


Actually the Bichon, Havanese, Bolognse and Maltese are descendant from the Barbet which was used in the making of Poodles (we think) but other then that they are no more related then a Lab is to a Poodle.


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## markfsanderson (Oct 25, 2009)

*Yeah - sissy dogs rulz dude!*



> If someone wants a dog with poodle like qualities but doesn't want to be seen with a "sissy" dog, first they need to find out why they are so unsure of their masculinity and then get themselves a real dog, a standard poodle, and even clip it lik a retreaver if they feel the need.


 Any guy that grew up with Standard Poodles knows that they are absolutely the furthest thing from a sissy dog. Yes, the over emphasis on 'canine topiary' by the show community does not take anything away from these dogs are all about(judges should remember that coat is only 10% of the breed standards weighting for AKC conformation). For me at least, the relatively low popularity of these 'sissy dogs' helps to reduce(but unfortunately not eliminate) the incidence of for profit only breeding. Quite frankly, I'm thankful for the 'sissy dog' outlook on these wonderful dogs . . . 

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


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