# Colour questions!



## littlestitches (Dec 28, 2009)

I worked with a woman like your know it all. Some of the co-workers started up a conversation about an imaginary breed just to see what she would say, of course she was an expert on them...... it was petty to do, but we did have a good chuckle.

Best of luck in finding the information you need.

Paula


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

A fascinating topic to me, as well. I love listening to know-it-alls, even if it's with a small internal smile. You can usually tell within minutes whether they're the "teachable" type of know-it-all or not. Oh, the ideas some people have!

Try this for a quite technical discussion:
Color Genes in the Poodle

Another technical genetic discussion:
Some coat colors of poodles studied using DNA testing

Cool pics of the solid colors:
A page at Moondance Standards

Cool pics of the non-solid colors:
Another Moondance page

This site is one of my favorites for reading about colors. I'm directing you to the first page about color breeding in general, but if you look on the left, under "Information on Poodle Coat Colors," you'll see links to pages for each color family and detailed (and fascinating) explanations about those colors. Tons of pictures.
Apreggio Poodles, color breeding info

Hope this helps!

--Q


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Purley said:


> There is a woman in my agility class that knows everything there is to know about dogs!!! No matter that the only dogs they have are cross breeds - she still knows it all.
> 
> We got into a discussion about different colours. The agility instructor has a black Standard poodle bred by a well known Canadian judge. I said that I was at the fun match yesterday and there was a woman there with a nice looking silver Mini. He said he had never heard of a silver. I said I assumed it was some kind of a dilute of probably a black gene.
> 
> ...


Well, browns have brown noses and lips. Apricots and reds can have brown noses and lips. It is allowed in the standard of the breed, but not desirable. All the other colours should have black noses and lips.

Silver beige and cafe au lait have only lately become acceptable and only recently do you see them in the ring. Most browns fade, so I presume it was a matter of making lemonade when given lemons. The standard does say "any solid colour" so it seems reasonable enough, but when I was a kid, breeders always sold the lighter puppies to pet homes regardless of anything else about the dog.

Creams and apricots are two separate entities, although if an apricot fades, it is easy to then call them cream. Another case of making lemonade. An apricot's coat should be a lovely, even colour, with yellow tones. Cream is just that...a rich creamy tone. The ears can take some time to clear.

The links Quossom gave you are fantastic and very educational.


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

I don't know squat about colors in poodles, but had to LOL about your expert. We have one here too amongst our dog friends. She is very nice, but knows everything about everything (not just dogs :biggrin. She's one of those that you avoid sitting next to if you can help it. :lol:


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

My puppy is a cream. If you look at the color of my puppies shaved muzzle it is a creamy white in this picture of her at 12 weeks. That's the color her body is supposed to eventually be. At 16 weeks old, her coat has lightened a few shades already from this picture, but still has a light orangey tint. Her nose is black, but she has cute apricot colored hair (mascara) around her eyes. Her ears should stay with some apricot color and maybe a little across her shoulders. Creams don't get shown much, but I think it is pretty. Here is a closeup of her face at 12 weeks. She is lighter than an apricot:









Here is a cream that is older (5 or 6 months?):


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Purley said:


> What about brown and silver beige. What is the difference between a bad brown and silver beige?


I can tell you about browns!! 

Brown, cafe au lait and silver beige are all within the same spectrum: brown. Brown, Cafe au lait and silver beige dogs will all have liver points. The points of a silver beige or cafe au lait may be a lighter shade of liver than a brown, or might not.

A bad brown is different from a cafe au lait or a silver beige. A bad brown will grizzle or silver out. A Cafe Au Lait is a gorgeous color in itself and clears in the way a blue clears. Eventually, the coat will be an even shade of light brown. The entire coat clears. A dog that appears cafe au lait due to lots of light hairs mixed in with dark hairs is not a cafe au lait. This is a bad brown. Cafe Au Lait breeds true. Cafe Au Lait bred to Cafe Au Lait results in Cafe Au Lait. 

Cafe Au Lait can be confused with a bad brown much easier than a silver beige. A silver beige is very obvious and a beautiful color.

A silver beige clears similar to the way a silver clears. Eventually, the entire coat will be a very, very light and the tips of the ears may have a tinge of beige to them. This top photo is Shane, a famous Silver Beige poodle. Alegria Poodles. 

Kai is a handsome and obvious example of a silver beige in the process of clearing. http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle...niature-11-1-2-months-before-after-groom.html Notice how Kai has a light to medium shade liver nose. 

Look at the color of Millie's tail in this photo. See how it is an even color? Compare it to the darker brown color of her bracelets on her legs. If her entire body ends up the color of her tail, then I'd call her a Cafe Au Lait. If her whole body doesn't clear evenly to this color, well, she's just a faded brown.  Only time will tell.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I can tell you about browns!!
> 
> Brown, cafe au lait and silver beige are all within the same spectrum: brown. Brown, Cafe au lait and silver beige dogs will all have liver points. The points of a silver beige or cafe au lait may be a lighter shade of liver than a brown, or might not.
> 
> ...


Keith just sent me a link to this boy this week. STUNNING dog! But not too very long ago, he would have been laughed out of the ring. Personally, I am glad this all has changed. He is H.O.T!!!


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Somewhere or other - probably on the Alegria site, there was a picture of four puppies I believe. One was Shane and he was a lot darker when he was little. I think colour discussions are really really interesting. Colour genetics I am sure are very very complicated but still its nice to find out about it even if you never grasp the whole subject.

That woman gets up my nose!! My agility instructor is very laid back and she takes advantage by taking over his class and telling people what to do. Mind you, it bugged me more than it bugged the instructor!!

The whole discussion started because I mentioned the Standard Poodle that is in Lucy's agility class. This dog has a very clunky head; a tail that curls up like a pug's and it also has white front feet and white on its chest.

Just to enlighten you - this "expert" told me that the dog is not a standard poodle. According to her, there is no such thing as a black and white poodle. The dog is crossed with a Portugese Water Dog!!

So there -- now you know. All you poodle people with partis -- they don't exist!! 

I think the dog is probably a standard poodle of sorts -- an unregistered "bad" standard poodle. By bad - I mean a very poor example of the breed. The kind of dog that comes out of bybs and their unregistered dogs. But what the heck do I know!!!

I love to learn from people that really know -- people like her drive me nuts!!


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

I've been obsessed with color genetics in animals since I was a kid, when my family raised goats and I had one that was incorrectly colored for her breed (I never won a class because of that, but I loved her anyway!). That's translated to horses and dogs, but if I've learned one thing for sure, it's that color genetics are _freaking complicated!_.

Silver Beige and Silver are genetically similar. I'm not completely sure if it is the same dilute gene acting on black vs brown, but it appears to work that way, the pups are born dark and clear to a mid to light silver on black, and to a mid to light silvery beige on brown. Shane of Alegria that was linked above is probably the quintessential example of the light silver beige. He was the first mini (possibly first of any variety? I don't remember) of that color to not only achieve a championship, but also the first to be #1 in the country!

I'm still confused about Cafe au Lait, myself. Every single website and book I've seen says specifically that you can't predict cafe au lait on a puppy, and yet, they all show a photo of a puppy when referring to that color! I want to see a good photo of an adult, fully cleared Cafe au Lait, but I'm assuming it's an even, light creamy brown with no hint of silvering.

Really nice apricots are hard to find in my opinion. They should really be a peachy color, whereas creams should be like buttermilk, a couple of shades off white. A lot of apricots seem to fade out and become a little too light, making it hard to tell the difference between that and cream.

And reds, oh reds! I am glad to see more breeders really working to produce healthy dogs that hold their red color and getting better textured coats on them. I've dreamt of having a deep red poodle for ages.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lavillerose said:


> I'm still confused about Cafe au Lait, myself. Every single website and book I've seen says specifically that you can't predict cafe au lait on a puppy, and yet, they all show a photo of a puppy when referring to that color! I want to see a good photo of an adult, fully cleared Cafe au Lait, but I'm assuming it's an even, light creamy brown with no hint of silvering.


Miniature Poodles - Amity Valley Kennels Scroll down to the bottom to see the image of Frankie in pattern. He is a cafe. I recently saw a video of a cafe bitch moving (nicely!!) that someone took at one of their local shows. Her color was that same type of light, creamy brown. Literally like coffee mixed with cream. I have seen very light cafes as well - looked like coffee with LOTS of milk.  That being said, I agree it is insanely difficult to find pictures of adult cafes. I'd like to see one in person one day as I bet this would give lots of insight to understanding and recognizing the color.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

"And reds, oh reds! I am glad to see more breeders really working to produce healthy dogs that hold their red color and getting better textured coats on them. I've dreamt of having a deep red poodle for ages."

Lavillerose...I think it is going to take generations of dedicated breeding to see the changes start to really take place. There are far to many breeders only breeding for colour, and not taking the health issues seriously enough. Or breeders spouting off constantly about how perfect their dogs are when in fact they were mill produced and lucky to see ANY testing on nine of 124 ancestors in a five generation pedigree. The breeders who are serious about improving the reds, would, in a perfect world, be working together like Shangri-La, Palmares and Majestic did in the past. Instead, everyone seems to think they have the right to judge the visions of others, nitpick at everything they do without knowing why they are doing it...this colour of Standards would not even exist with a vision, and the dedication of Janet Blannin, Joan Mistowski and Ilsa Koenig, and without them being able to work together, constantly encouraging one another. The possibility of conformationally correct, healthy reds is there, but human nature in these times is only going to make the effort more difficult to achieve.


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## MurphyRedGermanBoy (Feb 25, 2011)

Hello poodlefriends!
I followed this thread very interested, especially the informations about the colours brown, Café au lait and silverbeige.
We have a parti standard poodle girl (Murphy's buddy) and I hope someone of you can tell me what colour she has. When she was a puppy she was brown and white. Her mother is a silver and white parti and her father a brown and white parti. Cleo is now 2 1/2 years old and has faded very much in these two years. I don't know if she is a faded brown, because she has a very nice silvery brightness in the "brown" parts of her coat.
I would love to know what you think - is she a Café Au Lait, a Silverbeige or a faded brown?
Thank you very much!
I try to add pictures of her as a puppy, as a one year old girl and a new picture.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I'd say faded brown. Definitely not silver beige.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I think cafe au lait, but don't know too much about browns. Does she have lots of white hairs dispersed throughout the brown areas, or is the hair actually light? Whatever colour it is, she is adorable!


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## MurphyRedGermanBoy (Feb 25, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I think cafe au lait, but don't know too much about browns. Does she have lots of white hairs dispersed throughout the brown areas, or is the hair actually light? Whatever colour it is, she is adorable!


Thank you, Cherie!!! She is really a princess :act-up: !

To answer your question: She has not one single white hair in her brown parts. The brown hair itself is getting lighter, thats why I thought she is probably a Café au lait too...But...the silvery brightness in her brown parts do not macht with a cafe au lait, right? ....It's really confusing.... The only point I'm sure about is that she's not a BROWN and white girl anymore...LOL...
Does a bad brown fade that fast?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

MurphyRedGermanBoy said:


> Thank you, Cherie!!! She is really a princess :act-up: !
> 
> To answer your question: She has not one single white hair in her brown parts. The brown hair itself is getting lighter, thats why I thought she is probably a Café au lait too...But...the silvery brightness in her brown parts do not macht with a cafe au lait, right? ....It's really confusing.... The only point I'm sure about is that she's not a BROWN and white girl anymore...LOL...
> Does a bad brown fade that fast?


My guess would be cafe if there are not white hairs within the brown. Bad blacks are salt and pepper, with tons of white hair sprinkled throughout the black. I would imagine brown is the same.

Rayah....what is your opinion????


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

MurphyRedGermanBoy said:


> Thank you, Cherie!!! She is really a princess :act-up: !
> 
> To answer your question: She has not one single white hair in her brown parts. The brown hair itself is getting lighter, thats why I thought she is probably a Café au lait too...But...the silvery brightness in her brown parts do not macht with a cafe au lait, right? ....It's really confusing.... The only point I'm sure about is that she's not a BROWN and white girl anymore...LOL...
> Does a bad brown fade that fast?


Looks too dark at age 2 to be cafe to me. Nearly all browns do fade by age 2. Some browns fade evenly, to a minky silvery brown color that appears silver-ish in some light, others become sprinkled with silver and white hairs. A cafe does not appear silver, but perhaps a bit lilac. It's sort of hard to tell in those photos, especially backed up against white.

GLICKS STANDARD POODLES INDEX Poodle on the left is Cafe. 

Not sure if this link will work, but if so, is the BEST example of a comparison between brown, silvered out brown and BROWN brown I've ever seen. The poodle to the far left is Cafe. Notice how she is creamy, creamy Coffee NOT silver. Silvered out poodle is directly to her right. She's more of that silvery color. Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More

Sometimes I think my girl could be Cafe, but I am fairly certain she is just a nicely, beautifully fading brown.

This is a light cafe: http://www.apres-argent.com/Apres_Argent_Poodles/images/Debro photo's 071.jpg

These are both Cafes as well. http://www.flickr.com/photos/apresargentstandardpoodles/4025440985/


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## T Keeling (Jun 17, 2011)

I have a toy poodle puppy named JoJo, my very first poodle. I'm not sure what his color is, so I thought I'd post some pics and see what others say. He had two siblings, a dark chocolate brother and an apricot sister. When we got him, he was 8 weeks old, and his coat was a medium brown. I shaved his face and feet off, to reveal a silvery khaki color. Two weeks later, I shaved off the rest of his body, leaving only his ears, top knot, and tail pom pom untouched. This revealed the same silvery khaki color. I'm attaching several photos of him, some are before I shaved his body off, and some are after. I need to send in his AKC papers but I'm not sure what color to list him as.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

T Keeling said:


> I have a toy poodle puppy named JoJo, my very first poodle. I'm not sure what his color is, so I thought I'd post some pics and see what others say. He had two siblings, a dark chocolate brother and an apricot sister. When we got him, he was 8 weeks old, and his coat was a medium brown. I shaved his face and feet off, to reveal a silvery khaki color. Two weeks later, I shaved off the rest of his body, leaving only his ears, top knot, and tail pom pom untouched. This revealed the same silvery khaki color. I'm attaching several photos of him, some are before I shaved his body off, and some are after. I need to send in his AKC papers but I'm not sure what color to list him as.


Looks Silver Beige to me! Although, that is very young to be so light already! Hopefully some of the brown experts will chime in!  Silver beige would be my gut instinct, though.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I would agree with chocolatemillie. Looks silver beige to me too.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

T Keeling said:


> ... 8 weeks old... I shaved his face and feet off, to reveal a silvery khaki color.


Classic test for silver and silver beige.  When he's fully grown he should be a silvery colour with a gold-brown tint.


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## Charley'sMom (Jun 16, 2011)

*Silver Poodles*

Hi Everyone,
I'm new to Poodle Forum. I came across Purley's original post regarding color and the irritating woman who says that silver poodles are a cross with something like a Schnauzer. I definitely was lol at that one. I just got a silver mini puppy (see attached picture)! He comes from someone who I think is a notable breeder of silvers, Aery Poodles. Anyway, I'm not an expert and when I got Charley, I was just looking for a very well bred puppy. At 15 1/2 weeks, so far so good!! And, I'm pretty sure he's not part Schnauzer! ~ :alberteinstein:


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## itzfoxfire58 (Jun 18, 2011)

lavillerose said:


> I've been obsessed with color genetics in animals since I was a kid, when my family raised goats and I had one that was incorrectly colored for her breed (I never won a class because of that, but I loved her anyway!). That's translated to horses and dogs, but if I've learned one thing for sure, it's that color genetics are _freaking complicated!_.
> 
> Silver Beige and Silver are genetically similar. I'm not completely sure if it is the same dilute gene acting on black vs brown, but it appears to work that way, the pups are born dark and clear to a mid to light silver on black, and to a mid to light silvery beige on brown. Shane of Alegria that was linked above is probably the quintessential example of the light silver beige. He was the first mini (possibly first of any variety? I don't remember) of that color to not only achieve a championship, but also the first to be #1 in the country!
> 
> ...


Those reds are beautiful, I was originally going to get a red, but I got a Silver who's papers say hes a blue, but we will see. Maybe after Fallen is a year and a half, I might get another standard this one will be red. LOL


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Charley'sMom said:


> Hi Everyone,
> I'm new to Poodle Forum. I came across Purley's original post regarding color and the irritating woman who says that silver poodles are a cross with something like a Schnauzer. I definitely was lol at that one. I just got a silver mini puppy (see attached picture)! He comes from someone who I think is a notable breeder of silvers, Aery Poodles. Anyway, I'm not an expert and when I got Charley, I was just looking for a very well bred puppy. At 15 1/2 weeks, so far so good!! And, I'm pretty sure he's not part Schnauzer! ~ :alberteinstein:
> 
> View attachment 18236


Oh, I have no doubt about Richard's silver minis. My boy is also an Aery poodle. I had miniature schnauzer before and will get another one soon. There's no way that silver poodles are a schnauzer cross.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Mmmm... Im also confused about my Lou's color.. am I allowed to post some small pictures here of how her color changes depending on light?

Im confused wether she is really an *apricot* like her breeder and paper says
*or a cafe au lait with black points.*

Thanks! nice thread


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Lou said:


> Mmmm... Im also confused about my Lou's color.. am I allowed to post some small pictures here of how her color changes depending on light?
> 
> Im confused wether she is really an *apricot* like her breeder and paper says
> *or a cafe au lait with black points.*
> ...


Lou - because your poodle has a *black* nose there is _zero_ genetic possibility of your dog being cafe au lait (a brown spectrum color).


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Does anyone know at what age the color stops changing? I have a cream and I am hoping she has not stopped lighting yet... she was 2 this past Apr.


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## dcail (Feb 1, 2011)

For those who are interested in coat color there will be a live webinar on Canine Coat Color by George Sofronidis, ASAP Lab, DNA department on November 27th at 8:00 pm from Australia. It will be free but you must register for it at http://asaplab.com.au/ under News & Events! If the time is to early for you catch it live they will post it later on their website I believe. 

They had one last month on Advances in Canine Reproduction that was very interesting I heard. There are previous webinars you can hear on their website that maybe of interest to some here on the forum. Enjoy!


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## Lily's-Mom (May 31, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Miniature Poodles - Amity Valley Kennels Scroll down to the bottom to see the image of Frankie in pattern. He is a cafe. I recently saw a video of a cafe bitch moving (nicely!!) that someone took at one of their local shows. Her color was that same type of light, creamy brown. Literally like coffee mixed with cream. I have seen very light cafes as well - looked like coffee with LOTS of milk.  That being said, I agree it is insanely difficult to find pictures of adult cafes. I'd like to see one in person one day as I bet this would give lots of insight to understanding and recognizing the color.


Such an interesting topic and tons of great info here. Glad this thread was brought up again. 
I am particularly interested in the browns, since Lily is some sort of brown, LOL. She looks a lot like the color of the middle light brown dog in the group of 3 photos on the web link CM posted. Can anyone tell me what that would be called? 
I would be interested in that webinar too, but in my time zone it begins at 4:00AM! I will look into it at a later time, when hopefully it will be posted on that site. Thanks for that info, dcail.
PS - I think we all know someone like that "know it all" woman (from the OP), who knows everything about everything. Sigh... I don't understand why people can't admit they don't know something and try to learn something new.


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