# Mini poodle puppy from daughter × father inbreeding - yes or no?



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Well the 1% COI is certainly impressive, but without knowing the mother's (looking at the pedigree does not mean anything in terms of inbreeding, in my experience with my own dogs) and the fact that it's mother/father, nope, I would certainly not go for that.


----------



## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Keep in mind that inbreeding is not necessarily a bad thing. That's how different breeds of dogs were (and are) created in the first place.


----------



## sunnydaybysd (9 mo ago)

Johanna said:


> Keep in mind that inbreeding is not necessarily a bad thing. That's how different breeds of dogs were (and are) created in the first place.


Johanna, I understand. That is why I am asking for opinions sine I don't have enough knowledge.


----------



## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

It would be too close for me.
I remember reading somewhere that the recommendation for inbreeding is 2 degrees of separation at least. So grandfather/grandmother, uncle/niece.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

It can be done correctly and for good reason but as mentioned, by someone who knows exactly what they're doing and why.

COI is a factor to consider. What I'd also like to see would be the OFA health testing results on the breeding pair.

Is this a standard puppy?

These older threads discuss the issue, with some of PF's breeder members participating. (FYI, Johanna is one of those too.)
(9) Line breeding question ... | Poodle Forum

(9) Line-breeding vs in-breeding? | Poodle Forum

(9) when choosing a puppy is genetic testing more important or inbreeding coefficiant | Poodle Forum


----------



## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I might personally care even a bit more about their VGL interrelatedness. Impossible to answer without more information on what the breeder was trying to set or fix.


----------



## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Johanna said:


> Keep in mind that inbreeding is not necessarily a bad thing. That's how different breeds of dogs were (and are) created in the first place.


But is such a close inbreeding necessary at this point in the development of the poodle? I find it a little bit strange for such a well established breed and if it were being done for a very good reason I would have liked for the breeder to discuss this with me before I put a deposit, if this were me.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

curlflooffan said:


> But is such a close inbreeding necessary at this point in the development of the poodle? I find it a little bit strange for such a well established breed and if it were being done for a very good reason I would have liked for the breeder to discuss this with me before I put a deposit, if this were me.


I agree.

@sunnydaybysd, did the breeder explain their reason for this decision?


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Pups from daughter/father (along with mother/son and sibling/sibling) matings are not accepted for registration by the UK Kennel Club unless the breeder is able to make a case for an exception to the rules and get permission ahead of the mating. I would think it very unlikely that permission would be given in a non-rare breed like miniature poodles.


----------



## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

fjm said:


> Pups from daughter/father (along with mother/son and sibling/sibling) matings are not accepted for registration by the UK Kennel Club unless the breeder is able to make a case for an exception to the rules and get permission ahead of the mating. I would think it very unlikely that permission would be given in a non-rare breed like miniature poodles.


yes its the same in a lot of FCI clubs in Europe too.


----------



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

curlflooffan said:


> But is such a close inbreeding necessary at this point in the development of the poodle? I find it a little bit strange for such a well established breed and if it were being done for a very good reason I would have liked for the breeder to discuss this with me before I put a deposit, if this were me.


LOL exactly. The breed is very well established. The standard is in a genetic bottleneck crisis. Not sure about minis.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I don't think that any breed is genetically a fixed, static breed. Mutations happen constantly, usually with little effect but occasionally with great consequences.

The breed is improved one dog at a time. Well-bred dogs are in a position to contribute, poorly bred dogs take away.

(IVDD for miniatures comes to mind. I have to wonder if studies have been done to determine prevalence in well-bred vs poorly bred miniatures. Poodles are not intended to be long-backed or short-legged. Separately, a post on the pedigreedatabase.com mentioned seeing a paper on "show dogs" being nearly a separate breed within a breed. Haven't found that either, yet. "Show dogs" presumably = well-bred?)

Linebreeding, close or distant and done correctly and with purpose, is used to fix traits in one of two ways, either to set that trait or repair that trait.

My question is why the breeder chose to do this breeding, is this a standard practice with them (the AKC has no rules related to linebreeding that I can find so far), how do they address keeping diversity and inadvertently creating a new risk?

The Kennel Club does prohibit registration of certain breedings and I expect the FCI rules will read similarly. They go on to use the phrase "banned" (from registration) on another page.

"To help reduce the highest degrees of inbreeding, The Kennel Club does however not register puppies produced from a mating between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, save in rare exceptional circumstances for scientifically proven welfare reasons."

"Mating two relatives that share similar genetic material means that their children are expected to be more alike and therefore have more predictable traits,..."

"This similar genetic material could be genes associated with positive traits, but it could also include faulty genes too."

Also from the Kennel Club, while they're noting the reason that it is a risk, they're also noting the reason that it can be necessary to fix a trait.

"It is important to note that the inbreeding coefficient is a measure of risk, rather than a direct measure of health. It is possible that two closely related dogs do not have the same autosomal-recessive genes, while two seemingly unrelated dogs do - it's all down to chance."


We know what happened to standards with too much/too close/popular sire breeding and that's still being corrected. It's not only health, impacted negatively there, and structure, impacted neutrally to positively, but other attributes come into play.


From the Apricot Red Poodle Club site

"Lets start to discuss the Meisen kennel, one of the most important kennels in America to the development of apricot toys and minis......We are lucky to have had a breeder who spent time before breeding learning genetics, availability and quality to start apricot lines in both toys and minis. And it was partly by accident!

In 1940 Hilda Meisenzahl decided she would like to start a colored toy line. At the time most toys were white and few had even seen an apricot But she really just wanted to breed silver and black when she started. To start color in toys she had to go to a small silver mini and bought Maree Ang, small but well built. As most toys were white she bred her to a quality white toy champion. This produced 3 silvers just over 10 inches.

By accident a brother and sister from the litter mated and this produced a good black who finished his toy championship, and a white and a silver. The black did fade after a time. When she was unable to find a colored female to breed him, she bred him back to his mother though she advised others not to try this. His litter had 2 whites and 1 silver she kept(Meri-Tot).After much research she bought a small black mini from Toytown in England who had a small mini line with several colors in their pedigree (Giovanni of Toytown).. Unknown to her he had an 8 1/2 in. apricot mother, the granddaughter of Petit Morceau of Piperscroft, a black mini that we already know had an apricot gene and produced apricot. In Giovanni's 5 generation pedigree I counted 27 blacks, 4 silvers, 12 blues, 8 browns, I apricot and 1 b&w. 3 generations later in 1953 a toy, Meisen Fleck of Gold (Yum-Yum) appeared from 2 black parents. This was Meisen's 1st apricot."

Color can hardly be considered a necessary-to-breed-improvement but this demonstrates a happy result of linebreeding.


----------



## sunnydaybysd (9 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Color can hardly be considered a necessary-to-breed-improvement but this demonstrates a happy result of linebreeding.


Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I believe that color was the main motivator for this breeder. Silver mother was mated to her own silver father to produce silver pups that are rather rare.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Ok, that helps to be able to address your title question. 

Silver isn't strictly "rare". You just need the right recessive genes. The best way to ensure silver pups is to breed silver to silver so those genes are kept, but it absolutely does not need to be a linebreeding to get that result. All they needed were two silver poodles, unless there's other traits they were trying to breed in or out also.

This chart is very simplified but you can see generally what one gets.

"It can be difficult to understand the genetics behind coat color in poodles . This visual chart simplifies the often daunting task.
Please not , this chart is based on homozygous ( non-carrier), reference is made to the basic colors , it does not take into account the pigmentation except for the crosses with the color brown. Also it does not specify the % of given possibilities."

HOW TO USE THE TABLE

Select a poodle from the left column that represents the color of one of the dogs being bred , and then select a poodle from the top column that represents the color of the other dog being bred , follow the two till they meet and this will give you probable colors of the puppies produced









Genetics behind Coat Color - Nova's Standard Poodles (weebly.com) 

and another site for the layman

COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES (tripod.com)


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Still thinking, maybe the breeder was trying to lock in a specific shade of silver. I have no idea if that's even possible, and if that's the intent, how will that be susutained without more linebreeding?


----------



## Miki (Dec 25, 2021)

Nope. Not without a damned good health reason or genetic diversity reason or temperament reason and unless the health history is known and shared with other breeders and all potential buyers. Big ask? Yup. But, given the gene pool for standard poodles, a necessarily big one.

The genetic bottleneck in standard poodles does not need to be repeated in miniatures or toys. Popular sires and inbreeding has created a gene pool of heartbreak and $$$$ vet bills in standard poodles. Supporting the same irresponsible breeding in miniatures is a recipe for disaster.

What's the reason for the close inbreeding? What are the health implications of the breeding? What are/were the alternative breedings and why were they declined?

There are many (albeit incomplete) databases out there that inform responsible breeders. Sadly, there are also too many breeders who aren't willing to do the rest of the work to achieve what they want conformationally without compromising health, i.e., pushing the risk on to puppy buyers. 

All that being said, in 2022 both responsible breeders and responsible buyers have a boatload of opportunities to do it right. See, e.g., PF.


----------



## sunnydaybysd (9 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Still thinking, maybe the breeder was trying to lock in a specific shade of silver. I have no idea if that's even possible, and if that's the intent, how will that be susutained without more linebreeding?


I an afraid that it was more a matter of convenience and economics.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I wonder if this was an oops breeding if she owns both dogs.


----------



## sunnydaybysd (9 mo ago)

Skylar said:


> I wonder if this was an oops breeding if she owns both dogs.


According to the breeder, it was planned.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

sunnydaybysd said:


> I an afraid that it was more a matter of convenience and economics.


Some people are not comfortable with the thought of doing this but it is completely within the PF Rules to ask about the breeder by name. Having a name gives the opportunity for other member's personal knowledge/personal experience, if any, to be brought out.

The intent is not to trash but to discuss available facts. Good breeders can have personal issues develop and this may affect them in ways they don't see. A Breeder of Merit agrees to a higher standard than breeders simply breeding registerable purebred puppies. (Sadly, any mill can do that.)


The following must be met in order to be accepted into the BoM program:

Has a history of at least 5 years involvement with AKC events.
Earned AKC Conformation, Performance or Companion* event titles on a minimum of 4 dogs from AKC litters they bred/co-bred in each breed applied for.
Member of an AKC club.
Certifies that applicable health screens are performed on your breeding stock as recommended by the Parent Club.
_Health test requirements can be found on the Breed Health Testing Requirements webpages._
Demonstrates a commitment to ensuring 100% of the puppies produced are individually AKC registered.
If this breeder is also a member of one of the official parent breed clubs, in this case Poodle Club of America. there is a Breeder Code of Ethics they agree to follow.

*As a Breeder, I*

Plan each breeding selectively toward the goal on improvement of the Poodle, not purely for financial gain
Keep accurate records as per AKC rules and regulations
Test all breeding stock , as appropriate, for each variety’s genetic and acquired disorders
Remain abreast of new genetic testing available and readily participates in current genetic studies
Never intentionally allow a Poodle to be bred to any other breed
Screen prospective buyers or individuals with whom a dog is placed
Provide a written contract for all interactions involving the breeding, selling, co-owning, placing and rehoming of my stock
Sell puppies with individual records to include:
A Bill of Sale stating the conditions (terms) on which the sale was made
A Pedigree of at least 3 generations
Up-to-date health record
Proof of genetic/acquired condition testing
A reasonable time frame for a return
Never release a puppy before 8 weeks
Sell non-breeding quality puppies with limited registration
Require all non-breeding quality puppies sold to be neutered/spayed

Assume responsibility for the well-being of all dogs sold including taking back adults in emergency situations and finding homes for rescues that have been identified from my breeding when possible
As part of my selection as a member of PCA, I acknowledge the responsibilities inherit in that membership and pledge to follow the Code of Ethics of the Poodle Club of America. In addition, if I find I am no longer willing to abide by this document, I agree to submit my resignation form PCA.

*Poodle Club of America and Affiliate club members are expected to adhere to the following rules.*
1. All Poodle Club of America members and affiliate clubs shall be dedicated to the preservation and welfare of the Poodle Breed.

2. All PCA members and affiliate clubs must ensure that their actions are in the best interest of the breed.

3. Members will at all times, whether at home, traveling, at shows or at motels, display good sportsmanship and conduct themselves in such a manner as to reflect credit upon the breed and the club.

4. Novices are encouraged to seek the advice and assistance of more experienced breeders and owners, and those sought out will graciously provide assistance and share the benefits of their knowledge.

5. Each member of PCA who is a breeder will keep accurate records of breeding as per American Kennel Club Rules and Regulations, pedigrees and registrations. They will also maintain the best possible standard of care for their dogs with regard to proper nutrition, housing, cleanliness and veterinary care.

6. Breeding programs should exist for the betterment of the breed. Each member will plan their breeding program to maintain and intensify the virtues of type, quality, temperament, and eliminate faults. All breeding shall be done selectively towards this goal and not purely for financial gain. Breeders may not intentionally allow a poodle to be bred to any other breed of dog.

7. All poodles under consideration for breeding will be tested for hereditary defects common to the breed. Proof of this testing must be made available to puppy buyers. Depending upon the variety of the breed the common tests are as follows:


Eyes – PRA &Cataracts
(Yearly Ophthalmologist Exam)
C.E.R.F.
PRCD
Hips – Penn.Hip/ O.F.A. (X-Rays of the hips- Permanent after 2 years)
X-ray- Stifles and or elbows.
Von Willebrands ( Bleeding disorder)
Skin – S.A.- Sebaceous Adenitis
Thyroid
8. Buyers will be carefully screened for puppies and/or older dogs that are sold or placed.

9. Puppies will be sold with individual records. To be included:


Bill of Sale. Stating the conditions ( Terms) on which this sale was made.
Pedigree of the puppy ( at least 3 generation)
Written instructions about care & feeding.
All health records up to Date i.e. worming, shots and kennel cough.
The breeder will state in writing that the purchaser has (a time specified by the breeder) hours to have the puppy checked out by a veterinarian and will be urged to do so.
If the puppy is unsuitable due to a pre- existing medical condition or genetic fault based upon veterinary findings, it may be returned during the time period stated in the contract for either a replacement or refund of purchase price.
Proof of genetic testing will be provided to puppy buyers.
“ Pet Puppies” will be sold with” Limited registration” Unless the puppy is sold as a show prospect, you will require them to spay or neuter the puppy.
Above all NO PUPPY WILL BE RELEASED BEFORE 8 (EIGHT) WEEKS OF AGE.
10. The Breeder is responsible for any and all poodles that he/she has bred for the life of each poodle. If at any time the owner cannot keep the poodle, the breeder will take the dog back and decide what is best for the poodle in question, including placing or euthanizing the dog.Â It is the breeder’s place to take this responsibility. This helps take the burden off rescue groups for the breed.

11. A breeder of a rescued Poodle, who is a member of PCA will, upon notification, provide for the Poodle’s care.

12. In all questions of ethics, covered or not covered by this Code, the individual member shall act solely in the best interests of the breed, and the membership as a whole. He/she shall also willingly aid any fellow member in upholding these interests.

13. Members shall bear in mind that a Code of Ethics is more than a set of rules; it is a commitment to a high standard of practice in owning and breeding and that adherence to the spirit of the Code is as important as adherence to its law.

14. Any violations of the code of ethics will be brought to the Board’s attention and dealt with as stated in the constitution and by-laws of the club.


If you're not comfortable naming the breeder but you have the kennel name or the registered names of the dam or sire, or their registry numbers, you can look those up at the OFA database to see if prior linebreeding has been done, and see any of the published health testing as recommended by the PCA.

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


----------



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Miki said:


> Nope. Not without a damned good health reason or genetic diversity reason or temperament reason and unless the health history is known and shared with other breeders and all potential buyers. Big ask? Yup. But, given the gene pool for standard poodles, a necessarily big one.
> 
> T*he genetic bottleneck in standard poodles does not need to be repeated in miniatures or toys. Popular sires and inbreeding has created a gene pool of heartbreak and $$$$ vet bills in standard poodles. *Supporting the same irresponsible breeding in miniatures is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> What's the reason for the close inbreeding? What are the health implications of the breeding? What are/were the alternative breedings and why were they declined?


Well said! Thank you, Miki.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Different question...

Either in communications or on a website, has the breeder indicated membership in BetterBred?


----------



## sunnydaybysd (9 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Different question...
> 
> Either in communications or on a website, has the breeder indicated membership in BetterBred?


Don't see a membership in BetterBred. I sent you a private message with a website link.


----------



## sunnydaybysd (9 mo ago)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Well said! Thank you, Miki.


Maizie / Miki - does it matter if these puppies are sold as pets under neuter contract?


----------



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

sunnydaybysd said:


> Maizie / Miki - does it matter if these puppies are sold as pets under neuter contract?


I would still worry very much about their health. All the potential heartache and vet bills. I'd find someone who breeds for diversity.


----------



## Miki (Dec 25, 2021)

sunnydaybysd said:


> Maizie / Miki - does it matter if these puppies are sold as pets under neuter contract?


Was that the intent of the breeding - to sell all the puppies as pets? And, as MF said, I would still worry about their health. Bottom line, what is the point of this breeding? At some point it should be about improving the breed.


----------



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I'd like to say that being a Breeder of Merit means absolute jack to me. This is just one more of those examples of shady practices. AKC is no measure of quality, including all of their breeder programs.


----------



## sunnydaybysd (9 mo ago)

MaizieFrosty said:


> I'd like to say that being a Breeder of Merit means absolute jack to me. This is just one more of those examples of shady practices. AKC is no measure of quality, including all of their breeder programs.


AKC BOM is very misleading for buyers since AKC allows inbreeding. I wish they followed EU rules.


----------



## sunnydaybysd (9 mo ago)

An update on my deposit. The breeder offered to transfer my deposit to next litter. She plans two outcross litters later this summer. I think I will go for this. She seems to be a good breeder overall (besides occasional inbreeding, LOL). She has many happy customers on FB and some buy more than one poodle form her.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m glad you’ve arrived at a solution you’re happy with. But I wouldn’t give too much weight to this:


sunnydaybysd said:


> She has many happy customers on FB and some buy more than one poodle form her.


Some of the most atrocious breeders out there have many happy (and even repeat) customers. I have a couple of family members who have repeatedly returned to purchase puppies from Amish puppy-millers. Eek! I’m much more interested in feedback from knowledgeable dog folks.


----------



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I’m glad you’ve arrived at a solution you’re happy with. But I wouldn’t give too much weight to this:
> 
> Some of the most atrocious breeders out there have many happy (and even repeat) customers. I have a couple of family members who have repeatedly returned to purchase puppies from Amish puppy-millers. Eek! I’m much more interested in feedback from knowledgeable dog folks.


Yeah, we have some examples of that in this group. The buyers are almost like groupies for certain breeders, who sell them multiple dogs. Kind of cultish. I support you, @sunnydaybysd but I'd think thrice about this breeder.


----------



## Moni (May 8, 2018)

Skylar said:


> I wonder if this was an oops breeding if she owns both dogs.


That was my thought too. I have seen this only once in Dalmatians - a really top notch breeder and the father snuck out and got his very young daughter pregnant. The pups were all healthy and quite honestly stunning. I would have passed however...


----------

