# Unneutered pet?



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

The discussion about the ethics of debarking and other convenience surgeries brought a question to mind. If we were to get another poodle, it would be a male. We had two female Cardigan Welsh Corgis at one time years ago, both spayed, but when the second one matured, they began to fight. It escalated until I was afraid they'd maim or kill each other, so I found a good home for the younger dog. Never again do I want two females. 

Now the question. I had little difficulty deciding to spay Jazz, and I'll admit it was purely for my convenience, not from health concerns. However, we haven't neutered our male Lab and would not want to neuter a male poodle. There's nothing farther from my mind than breeding such a dog. I just prefer to keep a male intact. What chance would we have of finding a reputable breeder who would agree to that, if he/she understood we had no intention of using the dog at stud? I know accidents happen, but we're very responsible and would not be careless. Any opinions?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Highly unlikely, TBH.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Interesting - when I was considering a male pup, the breeder I spoke to was horrified when I said I would probably have to neuter him! I thnk the evidence of the health benefits to males of not neutering is pretty persuasive.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I've certainly read conflicting information about risks versus benefits of the procedure, but our choice is in part driven by personal experience. We had a male beagle neutered when he was just under a year old, and it seemed to us he became a bit timid after that. Quite possibly just our imagination, but we decided not to neuter another male dog. 

If I had a male who was marking in the house or who became aggressive, then I'd reconsider, but barring something like that, I'd much prefer not to have it done.


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## MaryEdwards (Oct 29, 2012)

I'm a newbee and don't know much, first off let me say. But we did not neuter our previous male dog (not a poodle), nor this one unless behavior problems cause us to reconsider. I have read much online regarding neutering young and the negative effects. JMHO


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I think it would be highly unlikely. I encourage people to wait until a male is 12 -14 months old to neuter, to let him be all he can be physically. If a breeder approved something like that, would you be ok with neutering? Two intact males CAN be a problem too. Sometimes they will fight seeing one another as a threat.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I think it would be highly unlikely. I encourage people to wait until a male is 12 -14 months old to neuter, to let him be all he can be physically. If a breeder approved something like that, would you be ok with neutering? Two intact males CAN be a problem too. Sometimes they will fight seeing one another as a threat.


Right now this is a purely hypothetical discussion, because, as long as Luke is with us, we wouldn't consider another dog. I don't want two intact males, either. 

Certainly I'd wait until my hypothetical dog was a year or older, if the breeder gave me no other choice, but I'd be disappointed not to be able to work something out. What about agreeing with the breeder not to get registration papers? If he couldn't be registered, that would pretty much negate his value as a stud, wouldn't it?

What do breeders do when they retire one of their studs? Are those dogs then neutered?


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm with you, I wouldn't want to neuter a male unless it was necessary to solve some sort of problem. And that would be a very last resort! I've only dealt with one breeder, so I don't know what the norm is, but my girl is papered and intact. She has a limited registration, which I believe means I can't register her puppies. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong!) So, is that something that most breeders can do? Or, of course, your idea of not getting papers at all. I guess the breeder could fear that you'd be a byb and sell unregistered puppies, but hopefully they could determine through talking with you and some references that it needn't be a concern. : ) I think your chances are good if you talk openly with a breeder and they have an understanding of the health risks of neutering. I think keeping dogs intact is going to become more commonplace in the future.

I do want to add that any two dogs may have "irreconcilable differences", regardless of gender or spay/neuter status. However, most will be fine, especially being raised responsibly by someone like you. : ) Your Corgis were more of a fluke than the norm. Although, maybe it's more in the normal range for Corgis!! They're pistols. : P Of course, I have to say this because I'm about to add a second intact female to my home! Maybe I'm just trying to convince myself. ; )


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

PammiPoodle said:


> I do want to add that any two dogs may have "irreconcilable differences", regardless of gender or spay/neuter status. However, most will be fine, especially being raised responsibly by someone like you. : ) Your Corgis were more of a fluke than the norm. Although, maybe it's more in the normal range for Corgis!! They're pistols. : P Of course, I have to say this because I'm about to add a second intact female to my home! Maybe I'm just trying to convince myself. ; )


Pammi, surprisingly, the older of the Corgis was the most submissive, biddable dog we ever had, the only one I could walk off-lead reliably, would do anything I told her to, but so timid I couldn't even try to show her in obedience, and so I was doubly astonished at the viciousness of the fights. I have since read that often two bitches kept together are...just that, bitches, and more likely to fight than a male and female or even two males, even if they're spayed. Of course, that's just a generalization, and I'm sure your two will be the best of friends! (Are you planning to get another poodle?)


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## spotsonofbun (Jan 3, 2013)

I would neuter if I get a male but not until he is fully grown and I would think about it if he were of a breed that doesn't handle being under or if there were any issues such as a heart murmur. 

My mutt was neutered and I saw a change in him after the procedure not a massive one but he seemed less agitated (took a while the hormons take time to leave the body) he no longer had urges that he couldn't do anything with. My dad had unaltered dogs and I they were more restless and more unclean down there. That depends on the individual of course but in my experience it was more common in unaltered males. 

I was also more relaxed with my neutered mutt, I could let him play with other dogs without worrying whether the were any bitches in heat. Allowing me to give him more freedom  (where safe and legal) 

There were no complications with the surgery and he healed quickly. 

I suppose those are convenience reasons but the way I see it its not fair to have the dog have all these hormons and urges and never be able to use it and I am also scared that the dog could get into a fight with another unaltered male. 

I don't think people that have unaltered dogs but manage to keep them from breeding are irresponsible but I don't see any harm in neutering as long as the dog is fully grown and any health issues have been ruled out. 

I would be interested to see any research into complications statistics with neutering surgeries.


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## Cailin77 (Jul 21, 2012)

JudyD said:


> What about agreeing with the breeder not to get registration papers? If he couldn't be registered, that would pretty much negate his value as a stud, wouldn't it?


Due to the current "doodle craze" I don't think it would negate his stud value at all! And since the health benefits vs risks are hotly debated, I can't really see a rebuttable breeder agreeing to it. Of course, not every breeder follows through on making sure you've actually had your dog neutered.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Spotsonofbun, you might find this information interesting regarding spay/neuter health effects: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

JudyD, yes, I'm getting a Poodle puppy in a few weeks!! If you search the pictures forum for "Amala" you'll find a few threads about her. : )


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## spotsonofbun (Jan 3, 2013)

pammipoodle that a was very interesting article, there is just one thing that Im not sure about. I knew neutering at or before 6 months is bad especially for larger dogs in that article it was not always mentioned whether the age of the neutering was taken into consideration. Mentions it sometimes not always.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

You're right, I hope more thorough studies will be done in the future taking age of altering into account. Or maybe they're already out there and we just have to find them! : )


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## Vixen (May 31, 2011)

I have two unaltered adult boys and they have never had an argument. My girls are all fixed so I've just never gotten around to neutering the boys. Vernon is a 2yr old 25lb spoo/chinese crested and Sherlock is a senior 7lb toy poodle. I doubt I'll ever fix Vernon as he is a tad shy outside the home and I don't want that getting worse. Sherlock may be neutered at some point though because he sometimes marks outside a bit too often for my liking :sheep:. That's kind of a silly reason though. Misha will be neutered as he came from animal control. I don't have any idea on the breeder end of the equation.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

As Caillin said...not registering would not ease the anxiety of a breeder. There are scads of Doodle breeders who would love to get their hands on a Standard to breed to, and those puppies would not be registerable anyway.

I can totally understand someone not wanting a puppy who is neutered at six or seven weeks of age. I personally detest idea of pediatric spay and neuter programs and would never refer to a breeder if they do it. I have also read numerous articles on the health risks to a dog who has had this done. But to find a breeder who would let you wait until a male was a year to 18 months old...I just do not get what is problem is. You'd have a more content, happy boy, and no risk of him becoming a Daddy.


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## spotsonofbun (Jan 3, 2013)

PammiPoodle said:


> You're right, I hope more thorough studies will be done in the future taking age of altering into account. Or maybe they're already out there and we just have to find them! : )


It was mentioned in the article that methodology in such large studies is problematic, having control groups and such. There are so many variables that you can't control such as care, nutrion, genetics, exercise, environmental factors. And as rightly pointed out in the article the benefits or risks are sometimes so statistically small that they almost don't matter. 

This article only talks about the medical side which is ok however when making the decision whether to neuter your dog there is more to consider. 

The bit about the affects on the bones and joints was interesting I wonder whether you could negate the effects with proper nutrion and supplements and by neutering only when the dog is fully grown or whether the lack of hormons would always have such a bad effect. 

Also what people have to remember when reading anything that claims that something does something bad is that correlation doesn't mean causation. Which means just because there is a connection between A and B doesn't mean that A caused B although it is a reason for a further investigation. 

But that article was nice, logical and relatively unbiased


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## Cailin77 (Jul 21, 2012)

Medical studies such as that one are great, but of course there are other factors to consider. An unneuter dog is going to have a biological urge to mate, especially if he smells a female in heat (which he can smell reportedly from at least a mile). If he jumps a fence (or breaks a screen door or slips his collar while being walked) and runs off there are a lot of dangers that he could encounter. He could get killed by a car, or simply get hurt in the escape attempt. Or be bitten by a female dog that resents his attention. Or beaten by an owner trying to keep him away from their female. Or he could be stollen by someone that wants to use him for breeding. I know some of my "it could happen" senerios are more likely than others, but honestly, most of them seem more likely to me than the >1% chance listed for many of the medical issues mentioned.

Of course, every situation is different, and a pet owner needs to do what they are comfortable with. Just keep in mind that statistics don't always tell the whole story.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

You can still sterilize your pet without removing all the parts.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Oops, don't mean to hijack this thread! But these are all great points! I'm very holistically minded and tend to think that a healthy intact animal shouldn't get, for example, any kind of cancer *because* it wasn't spayed/neutered. Just as healthy, intact humans shouldn't get cancer! It tends to be a sign that something else is wrong or missing in the diet or lifestyle. So, yes, I look at those statistics and also wonder what the rest of the story is for all the dogs involved. Plus, if we can all agree that pediatric spay/neuter is generally a bad idea, then we also have to acknowledge the fact that many owners who would opt for it may do little to no research into proper diet and exercise for their pet. Then we're back to what you said, Spotsonofbun, that correlation does not equal causation. The early spay/neuter, or lack thereof, can't be accountable for all health issues to follow. Gee, I sure wish I could let Lumi make some of her own decisions about these sorts of things, but she can't read! : P


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## Dawnsohma (Jan 24, 2013)

i dont think id consider having a un-neutered dog ever. as far as pets go i dont think id ever have a boy dog again tho i prefer girls which also would be spayed. other then waiting tell the dog is full grown what are the benefits of not neutering??? i personally only see positive things.


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## grab (Jun 1, 2010)

When we get our Standard Poodle in the future, he'll remain intact until maturity before neutering. Our Brussels Griffon, who was acquired from a private party..just a pet and no papers..was intact until almost 3 and never had any health or behavior issues. My Chow, who is from a show breeder and was acquired as a pet, was done a bit before a year (in hindsight, I'd have waited a little longer, though he's had no issues) since we did enter into an alter agreement.

You might be able to see if the breeder would agree to a vasectomy, if you want to keep him basically intact. It would allow for the benefits of the hormones, but eliminate their worry about irresponsible breeding.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I think your problem with fighting Corgis was a Corgi issue as much as a bitch issue. One of my friends has several male Corgis, and they regularly get into nasty fights. 

Our trailer trash mutt pups were both bitches. They were fine with each other, and they were fine with other females that later joined the household.

We went through a few adventures with the boy dogs. For a while the trailer trash mutt pups shared a household with some show quality golden retrievers. None of the goldens were initially neutered, as they were intended to be bred. Breeding happened a little earlier than expected, as one of the boys chewed through a door to get to one of the girls. COI was a little higher than intended too!

The predecessors to the trailer trash mutt pups were both intact males. We got them when neutering wasn't as common. They got along fine with each other in the house. However, having 'nads made them much more likely to stage jailbreaks. One of them kept breaking through screens to go court a lady dog in heat about 3/4 of a mile away. We looked in all the nearby neighbors yards and had no idea where he'd gone. Finally about 9 hours later the other frustrated owner called us up and said "Could you come get your dog, he's been sitting on my lawn since I left for work this morning and he's looking in my windows now." 

Our other intact male dog got hit by a car a few years later after digging out from under the fence to go roving the neighborhood. It wasn't a quick death. We, and the vet we took him to for X-rays, thought he was just sore. He turned out to have an internal rupture. He lived in several days of increasing pain while the vet tried to figure out what was wrong. 


Without flaky relatives injecting themselves into dog care decisions, I was able to get my current boys neutered as soon as they hit maturity. Yay! Dogs can think up enough trouble to get into without having hormones clouding the thought processes.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Wow, thanks to everyone for making this a very interesting, thought-provoking discussion. I'm glad this is still just a hypothetical decision. Clearly there's a lot to consider, including a vasectomy, if breeder and vet would agree. I wanted my vet to do just a tubal ligation on Jazz, rather than a full spay, but she was having none of it, and I like her enough that I didn't pursue it with anyone else. 

We've had no problems with Luke being intact. He isn't aggressive, doesn't mark, and the very few times he's done the escape thing, he was home in half an hour, which is just about proof positive he wasn't courting. We have joked that there may be some very attractive yellow coyote pups around, but it is a joke. I doubt the male coyotes would take kindly to that. And I doubt he'd have been home that quickly--you know, once they've seen Paree...

Again, thanks to all of you.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I've read and wondered about alternatives to spaying and neutering. Does anyone have experience or thoughts on these or other such procedures? 

Zinc/l-arginine based compound Injectible Neutering 
Vasectomy or Tubal Ligation
Superloin implant to block testosterone
Magestrol Acetate and Mibolerone drugs to suppress estrus


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Chagall's mom said:


> I've read and wondered about alternatives to spaying and neutering. Does anyone have experience or thoughts on these or other such procedures?
> 
> Zinc/l-arginine based compound Injectible Neutering
> Vasectomy or Tubal Ligation
> ...


I don't know about the first one. Just a guess--maybe it scars the vas so sperm can't pass? 

The second is surgical sterilization that doesn't require removing the ovaries or testes, just prevents the egg and sperm from reaching each other. Hormonal levels wouldn't be affected. 

The last two sound like the equivalent of chemical castration and human birth control pills. Wonder if there are the same sorts of side effects for dogs as there are for humans?


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I too wonder about the effectiveness and side-effects of some of the alternatives. Maybe our European friends are ahead of us here in the States on some of this, given their proactive stance on ear and tail cropping and other things? Hope to hear something from those who may have taken a different path to safeguarding their pets from unwanted reproduction. I'll stay tuned!!


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## Milo :) (Mar 10, 2013)

What do you guys consider "problematic behavior" where it becomes serious enough to think about neutering? My 4 month old mini poo picked up a bad habit at the dog park on Saturday. Humping! He had played with a male jack Russell and female toy poodle for a week and never humped either of them.. I take him to the dog park on Saturday and this beagle and a Maltese just would not stop humping him. Then he started humping back. :/ now he humps the jack Russell at home now whenever they play. I originally wanted to wait a year before neutering.. My poodle is actually very shy and timid.. I don't know if these are warning signs of "aggressive behaviors" to come or just hormones..


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## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

I will have to read up on benefits of not altering a male as I admit I didnt know there was a drawback to neutering...

In any case I have neutered 3 males.... A miniature poodle, a springer spaniel (both have crossed the rainbow bridge) and a standard poodle... All neutered between 18 months and 2years of age. Did not notice a significant diff in any of them... For boomer the springer I was really hoping for a behavior change Bc he was becoming aggressive with any males (human males) that would come into my home.... It was all bark and no bite (took me a long time to realize that) but it was the main reason for neutering him and it didnt change. I had to change to fix that. Rusty my standard poodle is high strung...was before neuter and still is (not the reason I neutered him though).... He was neutered at 18 months. He is 2 3/4 now and even though still high strung I've worked with him a lot and he has learned how to control himself but this is work we do every single day.... 

Anyway.. In my experience neutering didnt changed behavior significantly enough to be noticeable 


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## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

Milo :) said:


> What do you guys consider "problematic behavior" where it becomes serious enough to think about neutering? My 4 month old mini poo picked up a bad habit at the dog park on Saturday. Humping! He had played with a male jack Russell and female toy poodle for a week and never humped either of them.. I take him to the dog park on Saturday and this beagle and a Maltese just would not stop humping him. Then he started humping back. :/ now he humps the jack Russell at home now whenever they play. I originally wanted to wait a year before neutering.. My poodle is actually very shy and timid.. I don't know if these are warning signs of "aggressive behaviors" to come or just hormones..
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Many times humping is not aggressive or sexual... He is just trying to show his dominance. I would not allow him to do it. But that's me... 


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## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

Oh I forgot about Fred the mini poo.... No behavior issues with him but no change in him after neutering. Fred was my first poodle... Smart little **** he was lol and very funny to boot 


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## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

I am personally not a fan of your average intact male pet. I could make a list of why, but I won't get into that... If you really wanted an intact male as a pet, it would be possible, but maybe not easy to find a breeder who would allow that. I actually know that the breeder I got Zora from (genteel standard poodles) is a believer in leaving all things natural as well, and actually recommends leaving males intact if you're able to so responsibly. Dr. Jeannie (the breeder) is a holistic vet and has all sorts of articles on newer information on why it may be beneficial to leave males intact.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

These links were posted in another recent thread on neutering. I had them bookmarked. If you haven't already seen them, they might be worth a read.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=4B-m4RiMdsqoyQu2tgO_AA&bvm=bv.43828540,d.dmg
Spaying and Castration (Neutering) Dogs | Doglistener


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## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

Chagall's mom said:


> These links were posted in another recent thread on neutering. I had them bookmarked. If you haven't already seen them, they might be worth a read.
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=4B-m4RiMdsqoyQu2tgO_AA&bvm=bv.43828540,d.dmg
> Spaying and Castration (Neutering) Dogs | Doglistener


Thanks  will read!


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Chagall's Mom, thanks for those articles. The first one, especially, reinforces my thoughts about leaving a male intact. I'll start marshalling facts to present to my hypothetical breeder, so I'm prepared when the time comes.


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

As a responsible pet owner, there is no reason a male dog should be left intact, unless the he is a champion show dog that you are going to breed.


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

I think that for so long we have been told that every behavior a dog has is related to not being desexed we have come to take it as gospel. 
In European Countries they do not fix all their animals unless there is a medical reason. We cause such a fuss about tail docking and then say nothing about the damage caused by desexing puppies? There are other ways to prevent unwanted puppies that do not affect long term health that can be preformed on pups as young as 5 weeks old, but we do not use them....

Newest study about early desex
PLOS ONE: Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers

Tubal Ligations and Vasectomies on Puppies 
Discussion: Tubal Ligations and Vasectomies on Puppies | YesBiscuit!

Other ways have been around and in use for a very long time
Early Sterilization Brochure - Minnesota Malamute Club


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I wouldn't be so pro-spay/neuter if the pet population wasn't as bad as it is. Even responsible breeders have oops litters, at least their stock is generally health tested. How many oops litters can a pet owner have? With a large breed dog that's 8-10 more dogs that need homes on top of the thousands of dogs needing them already. I know a lot of you may roll your eyes at this post, but having an intact pet isn't something I take lightly.

Two weeks ago I neutered my UKC CH, why? I had no intention of breeding him and I don't need an oops litter if I go to a dog park or off leash hiking trail. Would that be the fault of the bitch in heat? Absolutely, but I don't want that on my conscious.

_"Approximately 5 million to 7 million companion animals enter animal shelters nationwide every year, and approximately 3 million to 4 million are euthanized (60 percent of dogs and 70 percent of cats)."_ Source.

(Of course this doesn't relate to those CH pets out there with something to bring to the breed, who in my eyes are justified staying intact.)


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Apres Argent said:


> There are other ways to prevent unwanted puppies that do not affect long term health that can be preformed on pups as young as 5 weeks old, but we do not use them....
> 
> Tubal Ligations and Vasectomies on Puppies
> Discussion: Tubal Ligations and Vasectomies on Puppies | YesBiscuit!
> Veterinarians don’t do vasectomies and tubal ligations because we weren’t taught to do them in school. Veterinarians at the forefront of change in veterinary medicine tend to be those in vet school settings. They influence all of us through the papers they write, and the students they teach. But they have no incentive to teach these procedures or ponder their significance. Even shelter medicine programs haven’t yet eyed this possibility. Adding another method to the mix is just too complicated…


Appreciate_ this_  so much!! When I asked my vet about the possibility of doing a vasectomy on Chagall, he laughed me out of the office. He's a proponent of early spaying and neutering. He also filled my head with cautions about behavorial problems with unaltered males. Chagall is my first "boy" so the vet really got me worried and I had Chagall neutered at @ 6 months. I should have given more credence to the advice I was getting from Chagall's breeder to wait longer. (When I mentioned that to my vet he said, actually _shouted_, "I don't tell her how to be a breeder, she's got no F****** business telling me how to practice veterinary medicine!" _Sheesh! _I was so unnerved by that.) I even "left" him for a time, because of the chasm in our thinking, but we've since reached a state of détente. I am all for controlling canine reproduction, I just wish better alternatives were out there and more widely used. I am so eager to see some sort of giant leap in veterinary thinking and practices!eace2:


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

I am so eager to see some sort of giant leap in veterinary thinking and practices!

I agree!!!! The more we talk about it and the more people understand how the traditional desexing is actually CAUSING many of the health problems we see in even mixed breeds the more likely we are to see a change in thinking! 
I think it was 2001 or 2002 that people first began to really question the amount of vaccines we were giving our animals, here it is 2013, and still many are not aware, and many vets are still pushing for yearly vaccinations. 
Progress is slow but the more it is talked about and the more people asking for these procedures the sooner it will be widely available. People first have to stop drinking the Koolaid. No one is advocating letting intact dogs out to do as they please. Tubal Ligation and Vasectomy are a safe alternative to taking organs and hormones, it is safe quick and much less invasive. It is abusive to continue to do things like we always have with all of the new information available today.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Chagall's mom said:


> (When I mentioned that to my vet he said, actually _shouted_, "I don't tell her how to be a breeder, she's got no F****** business telling me how to practice veterinary medicine!"


Holy cow! Are you kidding me?! What a _hostile _vet! Very unprofessional!


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## Cailin77 (Jul 21, 2012)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Two weeks ago I neutered my UKC CH, why? I had no intention of breeding him and I don't need an oops litter if I go to a dog park or off leash hiking trail. Would that be the fault of the bitch in heat? Absolutely, but I don't want that on my conscious.


I totally agree with you, up until the point that it is purely the fault of the bitch. I'm of the theory that if you have an unnuetered dog it needs to be your control at all times. If he doesn't have a perfect recall, then he needs to be leashed, unless in a fenced area. I also think mature dogs that aren't spayed or neutered shouldn't be at a dog park- too much potential for "oops" litters. 

My brother had a dog as a teenager that got pregnant when a neighbors dog got to her while my brother was walking her on a leash, in his own yard! Absolutely the dog, and more specifically, the dog owners fault! That little incident resulted in 10 mixed breed puppies, born when my brother's dog was less than a year old. And yes, my brother was guilty of being young and a bit stupid (not paying enough attention, though I know he tried to keep the dog away. He also had no idea why they were "stuck" together!) but ultimately, that male dog never should have been roaming around.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Holy cow! Are you kidding me?! What a _hostile _vet! Very unprofessional!


Serious as a heart attack! I'd been going to his father for over 20 years before he retired and "sonny" (who is anything BUT 'sunny' in nature) took over the practice. I use this salty-mouthed, close-minded vet _exclusively_ for cuts/scrape type things, SNAP tests for Lyme, and to periodically scan Chagall's microchip and weigh him. I do so only because he literally lives and has his practice up the hill behind us so it's uber convenient. He's learned not to bark at me, and I've learned to stick to only certain topics with him. I've gotten him to acquiesce with me doing titers. I have them done at a PCA Club clinic that uses Dr. Dodd's Hemopet lab for processing the blood work and give him "file copies" of the results. He knows he has free license to give Chagall a rabies shot every 3 years as required by law (hope the law soon stretches that to 7 to 15 years). See, real détente! I travel to another vet who practices integrative veterinary medicine, or what my brother calls "new age and old sage type stuff" for more comprehensive care. Sorry to diverge, now :focus:


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## joaniegee (Aug 20, 2014)

*Unneutered male and marking*

First thanks everyone for this thoughtful, respectful discussion. We have committed to be the Guardian home for a medium poodle. they call it a Moyen Poodle also a Klein Poodle in Europe. The breeder keeps her females at her home and all the stud males are placed in guardian homes. This lively 9 month old boy was in a guardian home for seven months but those people had to sell their home and rent so gave him back. Jaxon is his registered name but our 17 yr old grandson is also called Jaxon shortened to Jax so we plan to call the dog Jack. Before we bring Jack home I need to consider if marking is a deal breaker. :afraid: Some people posting sound so desperate about accidents. Which does not upset me by the way. I have had a sheltie collie, an Alaskan Malamute and a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel over the last 40 years. All male, all neutered. After every death I said never again. But here we are older, retired couple with a chance to give a lovely dog a forever home. He will be retired at age 6 and neutered and signed over to us. We are very motivated to take this on because we are currently looking after our grandson's 11 week old puppy and after 12 days, and 3 more to go realize we are too old for a puppy. Finally, to my point, are there lots of intact male dogs that don't mark? My apologies for the ramble and thanks for your indulgence here. I am so impressed with the postings, delighted by the stories and enjoying the photos. Thanks again. Oh, and I am in Red Deer, Alberta, Canada so we also have lots of snow in winter.


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## Purpleflower (Dec 28, 2013)

Based on what I've read about the risks and benefits of speutering (I'll try to track down some of the studies I'm referring to), I think the healthiest animals tend to be those left intact. There are risks of having testicles and uterus/ovaries too though. However the bulk of the studies I've looked at show that the most dangerous cancers are far more prevalent in animals that have been altered. Basically, breast and testicular cancers are vastly easier to palpate/identify and vastly more treatable than cancers like osteosarcomas. 

The risks are worst for early speutering, but there are other cancers that become prevalent for late-spayed bitches unfortunately. Though I haven't seen research on when these cancers develop (would my bitch dies of cancer at 12 vs dying of something else at 12.5?). 

For me, the biggest drawbacks to not speutering are:

1) finding a reputable breeder who would sell to you (same goes if you're adopting)

2) finding a vet to perform an alternate intervention to prevent unwanted pregancies (there are a number available - no one seems to offer them even though one in particular is very cheap)

3) if you ever need someone to walk your dog, petsit, or want to board your dog, good luck

4) managing a bitch in heat really IS a pita (though I know many very easygoing intact fellows - whose owners get lots of dirty looks and comments from more "responsible" pet owners)

I accept that any dog I have in the future will be fixed, almost definitely, unless there is a viable alternative sterilization procedure being offered by that time that the breeder is okay with. However I would NEVER buy from a breeder who promoted early speuter, and I'd be extremely cautious of adopting any altered adult if there was a chance they'd been altered at an inappropriate age.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm torn on this topic. Jack is 17 months now and still intact. He doesn't mark indoors, he doesn't wander (our yard is double fenced), he's not a hormonally driven maniac. 
I am not sure what to do, and he is a very good boy, so I just leave him as he is... :2in1:


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

The new procedures sound like they hold promise and offer the best of both worlds. Personally, I wouldn't want to manage an intact dog its entire life so would probably opt to alter after they were grown. 

I think there are people who can manage an intact dog responsibly, but I don't think the average pet owner is up to that. For that reason,I support spaying and neutering in most instances. We do have too many unwanted animals in this country. 

Many years ago, we took in my friend's five year old Golden when she couldn't keep him anymore. He was intact, but we had him neutered. Didn't change his behavior at all. He didn't mark, but would roam if given a sliver of opportunity, and that never changed. At that time we lived in a small rural community without a leash law, so it wasn't too hard to manage, and we just accepted that's who he was. Different time though.

My son and his wife own a very adorable Lhasa who had a *pediatric* neuter. He is the most prolific marker I have ever seen! Not at home, but in anybody else's house- he's like a water fountain!!! He has calmed down a bit in my house because he's been here a lot, but I have never seen a dog mark as much as he does. 

I think the jury is out on the behavioral issues- maybe there are tendencies, but it depends on the dog.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

For what it's worth, a neighbor has a male weimeraner and he is big! I think he is about 18 months now, and the owner did not have him neutered. The dog gets into it with other dogs, and his temperament must flip a switch with other dogs, so he can't send him to daycare because of chances of altercations.


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## Spoos+Ponies (Mar 26, 2014)

One of the studies I read about the drawbacks of sterilization mentioned that one of those civilized blonde countries : ) ( Sweden, I think) has something like a 90% intact rate for their dogs, so it must be manageable. I'm leaning toward uterus removal with ovary retention for my puppy to get the benefit of the hormones, without the heats, and it will also make my breeder comfortable. I didn't get a male because I would have wanted to keep him intact, or have a vasectomy, but I live in the country and my dogs have some freedom and I wouldn't want a wanderer making coy-oodles...


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Coy- oodles- now that's a new one!

There are countries in Europe, besides Sweden, who don't routinely sterilize but don't have the problems with homeless animals we have here. Why is that? Seems contradictory. 

The difference is the sense of responsibility inherent in those culture towards owning a pet. That's what we don't have here. It's too bad because it clouds the issue. What is best for the health of the dog is overshadowed by the bigger problem of homeless pets. Not perfect, but it's what it is.

People on this forum are the folks who could manage an intact pet- although I would prefer not to!


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I started this thread well over a year ago, when all of this was theoretical. Now that Blue is here...I'm not so sure. Let's just say he's a very masculine little guy. He first lifted his leg at ten weeks. Now, at five months, he hikes it up at least half the time. He's been riding Jazz when they play for several weeks. Today, he started the dreaded humping. I'd still prefer to leave him intact--my vet says he'll do a vasectomy instead of a castration--but if he starts marking in the house, that's the end. A eunuch he shall be.


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