# Food allergy / intolerance? Advice please! (Long)



## Milliekins (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm wondering if Millie might have food allergies.

When we adopted her in February she was underweight, but her poops were solid. We don't know what she was fed on in the dog pound (the name/brand they told us doesn't actually exist). We know it won't have been great quality food as we saw some in their store room which were supermarkets cheapest brands. And we know they will have changed her food over immediately not gradually as they didn't know what she had been fed previously.

Since she came to us she has steadily gained weight, about 1kg a month, but her poops haven't even been consistently okay.

At first we fed her on Arden Grange puppy food Nutritional Premium Dog and Cat Food - Arden Grange as we were advised this was a good quality food for her at 7months old, and would be fairly gentle on her stomach as we weren't able to change her food slowly. Over two months of feeding this we found that it often made her wildly hyper immediately after meals, and we noticed she was scratching her ears a lot and had quite a runny nose. So we felt it didn't suit her and we changed her gradually onto a CSJ feed which was recommended as a good food for dogs with sensitive stomachs. Complete Tripe! - CSJ Original Dog Food - CSJK9 Ltd.

We've been feeding the CSJ food for a couple of months now and her ears aren't as bad though she still scratches sometimes, her nose is a lot less runny and she doesn't go crazily hyper immediately after food. However her poops still aren't great- sorry for the detail but hoping it may help figure what's wrong? They start out looking kinda solid but are squishy, brown on the outside but you can see a lighter colour on the inside, and towards the end her poop is lighter and really soft / mushy / messy / yuk!

We've also tried adding a herb supplement which is designed to soothe the stomach and calm any irritation, however we've not seen any improvement after a few weeks of using it. Heal! - CSJ Herbs for Dogs - CSJK9 Ltd.

We thought maybe it could be her treats that were the problem but we cut everything out except her normal food and it made no difference.

I now don't know what to do. Whether we should go straight to looking at what tests can be done to establish if there are specific food allergies, or whether to try another food.

I'm also puzzled as Millie has still steadily gained weight, which I wouldn't have expected if she was allergic or intolerant to something in her food?

One thing I have discovered is that if I add some cooked rice with a bit less dog food, her poops seem to settle a bit, however I'm not sure this is really a good solution long term as it means she's getting a higher proportion of "filler" rather than meat in her food? 

Any advice please?


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Add canned pumpkin (not pumpkin pie filling!) to her food to settle her digestion. 

Brewer's Yeast is a common problem for many dogs and both the foods you have given your dog contain it. 

I posted about elimination diets for dogs on the recent Honest Kitchen thread.


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## Sully's mom (Jun 6, 2012)

Sorry to disagree but the pumpkin may not be the best idea, we had a doberman living with us who was on that for same reason, made no difference and was just messy and orange. We had a dalmatian with food sensitivities, she would get patchy and itchy, would scratch herself raw. We put her on a holistic food, lamb and rice formula, and gave her carrots as treats. Her coat was better, she was calmer and seemed to solve her problem. Good luck


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Sully's mom said:


> Sorry to disagree but the pumpkin may not be the best idea, we had a doberman living with us who was on that for same reason, made no difference and was just messy and orange. We had a dalmatian with food sensitivities, she would get patchy and itchy, would scratch herself raw. We put her on a holistic food, lamb and rice formula, and gave her carrots as treats. Her coat was better, she was calmer and seemed to solve her problem. Good luck


Adding fiber already improves the dog's symptoms. It's very likely to work - and better than rice.


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## Milliekins (Mar 31, 2012)

tortoise said:


> Add canned pumpkin (not pumpkin pie filling!) to her food to settle her digestion.
> 
> Brewer's Yeast is a common problem for many dogs and both the foods you have given your dog contain it.
> 
> I posted about elimination diets for dogs on the recent Honest Kitchen thread.


I have heard of pumpkin being recommended for this before and I'd be happy to give it a try however the only one I've found so far here in the uk is Libbys 100% pure pumpkin. Libbys 100% Pure Pumpkin Pie Filling 425 g (Pack of 4): Amazon.co.uk: Grocery

Although Amazon says it's pie filler it is 100% pumpkin, unsweetened etc, is this still no good? This is the only one that I know of being stocked (sometimes) in supermarkets.

I understand the pumpkin may not work, but is probably worth a try if I can get hold of some suitable. If it did turn out to help is it likely to be a temporary thing she needs to settle her stomach do you think or something that I would need to add for as long as she's on this food? I tend to think she should be on a food that doesn't need anything adding long term but that may be unrealistic.

Thanks for the pointer to the elimination diets as well, I will look into it as it may be the way we have to go with Millie to find out what she can or can't tolerate before changing her food.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with the canned pumpkin, it even works on cats. 

I noticed on both ingredient lists you posted that both diets contain maize (fancy word for corn). Many dogs don't handle corn well. It also causes hyperactivity in one of my dogs and with his temperament, it is NOT pleasant at all, he is not a poodle lol)

I've had good results with the Chicken Soup Diets: 
Adult Dog Dry Food - Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover's Soul

I know there are better quality foods out there as well, but I have experimented and for the price, this works the best for my dogs. I do also add fish oil and vit c. and the occasional raw treats, etc. I have just learned through trial and error not to use anything with corn or wheat in it. 

I wish you the best with Millie. If you are unable to solve the problem with kibble, you may want to start researching a raw diet. I am seriously looking into doing that with mine on a full time basis (once I get that freezer I'm looking at.)


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

My dog has issues with chicken. It made him very itchy. Now we avoid all poultry and he is much better.

If it were me, I would first switch Millie to a diet with no corn, wheat or soy. Those are three common ingredients that cause issues with dogs.

Have you considered adding a tablespoon of plain yorgurt to her meals? The probiotics could help with her digestion.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Raw green tripe is also a good source of probiotics and is easy to digest - Prize Choice frozen chunks are widely available. Smells foul, looks worse, but most dogs love it! Having hunted for tinned pumpkin myself in the UK (there are occasional rumours of it in stock at Tesco, but I have never seen it), my research tells me that you can bake your own - a butternut squash or similar, without oil - and freeze portions. Sweet potatoes can be baked and used in the same way. Probably much cheaper and more convenient than via Amazon.

Is it possible that, in your efforts to build her up, you are feeding her rather more than she really needs and can digest? That is often an explanation for the part formed/part soft faeces.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Brewers yeast and corn both are common sources of allergies....I would try to find a food without them and see if it helps. I would suggest brands but I don't know what is commonly available in the uk lol! The pumpkin is a good suggestion for while you're trying to figure out a more permanent solution, I've never had it not work, even on my mini poo puppy with giardia!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Oh also, has this dog had a recent fecal test? Maybe parasites are part of the problem?


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## Milliekins (Mar 31, 2012)

BorderKelpie said:


> If you are unable to solve the problem with kibble, you may want to start researching a raw diet. I am seriously looking into doing that with mine on a full time basis (once I get that freezer I'm looking at.)


I've read so many great things about feeding raw it really sounds the ideal thing, however we really don't have the space right now for freezer storage etc :sad:



PaddleAddict said:


> Have you considered adding a tablespoon of plain yorgurt to her meals? The probiotics could help with her digestion.


I don't think yoghurt suits her it's another thing I have tried but unfortunately it seemed to make things worse. I'd have to do an elimination diet properly though to be sure it was the yoghurt that had that effect.



fjm said:


> Is it possible that, in your efforts to build her up, you are feeding her rather more than she really needs and can digest? That is often an explanation for the part formed/part soft faeces.


I have thought about that as a possibility but I am really reluctant to reduce her food as she is still on the thin side and people already joke about whether we starve her! :sad: The suggested feeding guide for her food recommends between 170-290g for a dog weighing 10-20kg. Millie currently weighs 16kg and we feed her 220g a day, split into 2 meals. So that would seem about right though I know it's only a guide. She is always keen for any food, treats, training rewards etc, and always keen to scavenge for food when we're out which doesn't give me the impression she's overfed, but this could also be a behaviour thing from being neglected before she came to us so that doesn't make things any simpler!


Thanks for all the suggestions and advice. I will definitely start looking into what food is available that doesn't contain brewers yeast, maize/corn, wheat etc. I may well start an elimination diet unless I find a good food without all those common problem ingredients that I can look at trying Millie on first!

I don't think it's parasites as the rice settles her digestion which I don't imagine it would if there were that kind of problem? I could be wrong, but our vet has never suggested a need for a faecal sample to test. I don't think it's done routinely? and we do worm Millie regularly as recommended.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Milliekins said:


> I have thought about that as a possibility but I am really reluctant to reduce her food as she is still on the thin side and people already joke about whether we starve her! :sad: The suggested feeding guide for her food recommends between 170-290g for a dog weighing 10-20kg. Millie currently weighs 16kg and we feed her 220g a day, split into 2 meals. So that would seem about right though I know it's only a guide. She is always keen for any food, treats, training rewards etc, and always keen to scavenge for food when we're out which doesn't give me the impression she's overfed, but this could also be a behaviour thing from being neglected before she came to us so that doesn't make things any simpler!
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the suggestions and advice. I will definitely start looking into what food is available that doesn't contain brewers yeast, maize/corn, wheat etc. I may well start an elimination diet unless I find a good food without all those common problem ingredients that I can look at trying Millie on first!.



The feeding guide on the back of dog food often recommends waaaay too much. If I fed my dogs as much as they recommend they'd all either be pooping every 5 minutes or look like barrels on toothpicks, depending on which one we're talking about.  Can you try reducing her food by just a little bit and see if it helps? One of my dogs, Sam, had the same issue as Millie....skinny with soft poo. Of course I was reluctant to cut back on her food because of her weight issues, but once I did she actually gained weight AND her poop firmed up. It seems like when she gets over fed, her body just dumps all of it instead of just what it doesn't need, which causes her to lose weight. Just a thought..

As far as the scavenging, that's probably a learned behavior from being neglected...all of my rescue pups have been like her, always waiting for the next handout. Pepper's previous owner used to make her skip a couple days of feedings because she was fat, and so now she just eats anything and everything she can find. A good part of her time inside is spent scanning the kitchen and dining room for food, and if we go somewhere like the park and she finds food there, she will remember where she found it the next time we go and check it out, just in case. I had the vet check her out with bloodwork and everything, nothing is wrong with her. She is certainly not underfed nor is she underweight either! In fact, I have to be ultra careful with extras with her because she has a very slow metabolism and will blow up like a blimp within literally days if she gets too much.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

my son's dog is very allergic to corn and wheat. she develops welts on her skin (she has very short hair as she's a pit bull and you can see them). he got her off all corn and wheat and she cleared right up. he basically took her off all dog food and fed her oats, eggs, veggies until she cleared up and then put her back on kibble. 
she's on wellness kibble now and doing great. 

you could consider an all raw no grain diet. my guys are doing amazing on it. i feed them meat/bone/offal and some yogurt and occasionally veggies, eggs, sardines, and some treats like baked liver cookies i make (these have eggs rice and oats in them)


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

I've fed cooked, homemade diets for 16 years now. I started doing it when my first Rottweiler was diagnosed with inflammatory bowel disease, then along came my second Rottweiler with the same disease. Over the years, I've learned a lot about managing loose poops. LOL I find canine nutrition to be a fascinating subject so prepare yourself for a long post!

Some people have suggested fiber to help. I'd caution you to proceed slowly if you decide to do this. Pumpkin will often work to firm up the stool of a dog who's suffering from a short-term dietary indiscretion, but can sometimes really backfire on a dog with a more chronic problem and make it much worse. I had to feed very, very low fiber diets to both my Rotties. 

Every dog is different though so I'm not saying don't try it, just proceed with very small portions and, if you see an improvement, build up very,very slowly to the quantity you want to add. At the first sign of loose stool, backtrack to the last amount you added. Dogs are very individual in how much fiber they tolerate.

I think you can take some kind of clue from the rice though. If you are adding white rice to the commercial food, then you are adding negligible fiber and actually diluting the overall fiber content of the food by taking away some of the dog food. If you are adding brown rice, you are adding a tiny bit of fiber, but probably not as much as you're taking out by removing the dog food. One ounce of cooked white rice contains .1 g of fiber, one ounce of cooked brown rice contains .5 g of fiber. Neither is a significant source of fiber.

If cooked rice does seem to help, there is no reason in the world why you can't keep adding it. It is completely safe to replace up to 1/4 of a complete and balanced commercial dog food with an "add-on". You don't replace by the weight of the food, you replace by calories. Rice is roughly 35 calories per ounce cooked and you should be able to find out how many calories are in the dog food on the package or by contacting the company. Commercial foods are, in reality, oversupplemented with vitamins and minerals, so taking a bit of it away won't put your dog at risk of eating an unbalanced diet.

Rice is not a "filler". Unenriched white rice is a decent source of magnesium and potassium and contains small amounts of calcium, iron, zinc, copper, manganese and B vitamins. These are all nutrients that dogs need. If you feed enriched white rice, the levels of the above are higher. If you feed brown rice, it also has higher levels of the nutrients I listed for unenriched white rice.

Something else you really need to keep a close eye on when a dog has intestinal issues is the fat content of the food. Fat can be irritating to an inflammed intestinal tract. Neither dog food you're feeding appears to be overly high in fat but sometimes sensitive dogs don't tolerate the amounts found in even the lower fat dog foods. By adding the rice, you're also lowering the overall fat level of the food.

I would cut out the herbal supplement if it isn't helping. Really sensitive dogs can react to anything! It's best to keep dogs with this type of problem on the simplest diet possible, one with very few ingredients. Any treats fed should ideally have the same ingredients as the rest of the diet. I know the immediate reaction is to try everything out there to help but in the process, you end up exposing your dog to lots of different proteins. If the situation should worsen and you truly do need novel foods, you might have trouble finding something your dog has never eaten before.

It would be helpful to get to the bottom of what's causing the problem. A low-fat, novel food elimination diet as tortoise suggested would be the ideal way to go if you suspect food allergies or intolerances. You could also try a one or two ingredient dog food with novel ingredients which means foods your dog has never, ever eaten. This can be hard with a rescue because you don't know the history, but I'd go for something really different that you rarely see in most dog foods, like bison and potato. I realize we're starting to see more and more potato in dog foods these days but they're usually in the higher-end foods and probably not commonly found in the cheaper foods you think she was eating before. Try and look for something low fat.

I'm not surprised your dog is gaining weight.  Before I got my first Rottie's diet sorted out, she used to have 6 - 10 poops a day and the last of those were basically water, but she held her weight and actually needed to lose a few pounds by the time I put her on an elmination diet. Her intestinal tract was a mess but luckily it wasn't so bad that she was leaking protein and other nutrients through the intestinal walls. When that happens, dogs will lose a lot of weight. 

I think my Cali has some food allergies too. I had her on kibble for a while after I got her and her poops were like you've described Millie's and she scratched a lot. I'm transitioning her over to a homecooked diet now and the poops are getting better and the scratching is less. She will occasionally have some loose stool though and I suspect it is because of all the bug eating she does! Yesterday she ate some type of bug that must have tasted awful because she was gagging and spitting after she ate it. Then last night, she caught a moth and ate it. This morning she had a small episode of loose stool. She doesn't seem to be allergic to flies though.


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## lunamarz_31 (Nov 15, 2010)

Milliekins said:


> I'm wondering if Millie might have food allergies.
> 
> One thing I have discovered is that if I add some cooked rice with a bit less dog food, her poops seem to settle a bit, however I'm not sure this is really a good solution long term as it means she's getting a higher proportion of "filler" rather than meat in her food?
> 
> Any advice please?


I was thinking that the food she is eating is too rich for her, or has too high of a protein level? I had some episodes where my dog has "runny" stool, because the protein content was over 30% and it was just too much for her. As soon as I switched her to 25% protein or so, her stomach was fine :biggrin1: 

Ideally, you want food that has considerable amount of protein (meat), however not all dogs can handle the 35% or higher protein as contained in some of the best foods on the market. Some dogs need more "filler", my dog loves rice too and since it's not giving her issues, then I'll gladly feed her that.
Good luck with everything!


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## Milliekins (Mar 31, 2012)

Sorry for the delay in replying to all your really helpful posts.

We decided to try cutting back Millie's food a bit as it seemed the simplest thing to try first of all, and could have been a very simple explanation and solution for our problem. However rather than seeming better, Millie became noticeably lethargic compared to her normal self, and seemed hungry - searching for food much more than normal, and extra extra extra extra keen to follow any command for any reward.

So I don't think that is the answer unfortunately, though worth a try.

I don't know whether it is relevant that some days her 'digestion' is better than others? I'm unsure whether this means it's not to do with her dog food which she eats the same amount of every day, and whether it's a varying factor (maybe food she finds, or a treat we give?), that causes the tummy upsets.

I have now started to re-introduce rice along with her dog food. This stabilised things before, but has yet to work this time. It is white rice anyway (the same as before), so it's probably not fibre that is making the difference.

I had wondered if maybe her food is too "rich" for her (I was thinking protein), but it's very enlightening to realise that the rice is diluting the fat in her dog food too. I hadn't thought of it like that.

A question about the elimination diets - does it have to be 'novel food? I didn't see it mentioned in the info I read about them but I may have missed it. I thought the idea was just to pick two simple foods that I think Millie is okay with, see if her tummy settles on them and then build it up from there. 

One of my concerns about the elimination diet is that it isn't balanced, and it would take a while to introduce new things and wait to see if there was a reaction.

Thank you to everyone for sharing your advice and experience!


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## sulamk (Nov 5, 2011)

Here are some UK brands That friends on another forum seem to have success with for their sensitive dogs!
Wainwrights Salmon and Potato
Simpsons salmon & potato
James Wellbeloved Ocean Fish.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

There is a lot of helpful advice on identifying the causes of recurrent diarrhoea, and possible solutions, here: DogAware.com Health: Digestive Disorders in Dogs


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

Milliekins said:


> I don't know whether it is relevant that some days her 'digestion' is better than others? I'm unsure whether this means it's not to do with her dog food which she eats the same amount of every day, and whether it's a varying factor (maybe food she finds, or a treat we give?), that causes the tummy upsets.


Dogs with digestive problems sometimes react to exercise and/or stress. The longer they sit around, the firmer the stool is. The first morning stool is probably the firmest because they've been still all night. Sometimes a long walk or a lot of excitement will produce a looser stool. If you are dealing with food sensitivities, it most certainly could be the treats.



Milliekins said:


> A question about the elimination diets - does it have to be 'novel food? I didn't see it mentioned in the info I read about them but I may have missed it. I thought the idea was just to pick two simple foods that I think Millie is okay with, see if her tummy settles on them and then build it up from there.


They do have to be novel foods. I think I said "food never eaten before" or something to that effect. Doesn't matter how simple a food is if the dog is allergic/sensitive to it, the problems will continue. During an elimination diet, only the two novel foods can be fed, absolutely no treats or chews or recreational bones, nothing but the two foods.



Milliekins said:


> One of my concerns about the elimination diet is that it isn't balanced, and it would take a while to introduce new things and wait to see if there was a reaction.


In my experience, the digestive symptoms disappear quite quickly if food sensitivities (not allergens) are the cause. When I put my first Rottie on an elimination diet, I saw improvement in four days....not perfection, LOL, but definite improvement. If the dog is having a true allergic reaction, there will usually be some itchy skin as well as the digestive symptoms. If it is a true allergic reaction, it can take up to six weeks for the symptoms to improve.

Adult dogs (not growing puppies) can go quite a long while on an unbalanced diet without any problems. I put my Rottie on the elimination diet for the full six weeks. I'd decided to leave her on a homemade diet and it took me another two months to introduce the supplements needed to balance the diet. She was 5 years old when I did the elimination diet and lived to 13 1/2 so obviously didn't suffer from those months on an unbalanced diet.

Is Millie having more bowel movements per day than normal?

Another question I had was if she'd been tested for giardia? This parasite is easy to miss on a routine fecal test. A lot of vets will give a course of metronidazole or panacur even if they don't have a positive test if they think the symptoms could be caused by giardia. This parasite usually causes symptoms in puppies but can affect adults as well.


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## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

Another forum I'm a member of has a lot of UK folks on it. They tend to use James Wellbeloved for sensitive dogs. Have you tried this?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Milliekins said:


> One of my concerns about the elimination diet is that it isn't balanced, and it would take a while to introduce new things and wait to see if there was a reaction.


I believe the general consensus is that a "balanced diet" needn't occur over days, even weeks, but over time. It's perfectly safe to feed an elimination diet. Your dog will get what she needs over time.


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## Milliekins (Mar 31, 2012)

caroline429 said:


> If the dog is having a true allergic reaction, there will usually be some itchy skin as well as the digestive symptoms. If it is a true allergic reaction, it can take up to six weeks for the symptoms to improve.
> 
> 
> Is Millie having more bowel movements per day than normal?
> ...



Millie usually has about 2-3 bowel movements a day. 1-2 in the morning, and 1 in the evening. This seems okay to me but I'm no expert and please correct me if I'm wrong. Occasionally we have had days where she's done 3 or more poops all on the same walk. This definitely isn't normal in my opinion, but this isn't happening all the time, it's maybe happened 2 or 3 times in the 5 months we've had her.

Millie hasn't had a fecal test and hasn't been treated for giardia. When I spoke to the vet a couple of months ago about my concern re her diet not suiting her, he just suggested I put her onto homecooked chicken and rice and then slowly re-introduce her kibble. Then if that kibble didn't suit her, to try another kibble etc. She was fine on the chicken and rice and we slowly re-introduced her kibble. She was still on the Arden Grange Puppy Food, and we felt it didn't suit her, so we slowly changed to the CSJ adult food.

As the vet didn't suggest he needed to do a fecal test I assumed he didn't think it was indicated for by symptoms and wasn't necessary?

Millie doesn't really have itchy skin as far as I can tell, the only scratching she does from time to time is her ears as they are a bit hairy and seem prone to being waxy. This scratching has reduced a lot since we changed her from the Arden Grange puppy food, as the CSJ food she's currently on seems to suit her more than the Arden Grange, even though it doesn't suit her perfectly. So I'm guessing it may be food sensitivities rather than an allergic reaction?

I'm thinking of putting Millie back onto chicken and rice as she was fine with this before, and then if she settles on that, gradually add other things, as a sort of elimination diet. This will also give me more time hopefully to look into other kibble with less ingredients (and no grain, brewers yeast etc), or look into raw as an alternative although I have no storage space for bulk and need a new kitchen floor so that I will be sure I can get it clean after feeding raw meat! I'm really restricted for time at the moment and haven't managed to look into all this as much as I'd hoped yet.

One example of a kibble with less ingredients: Duck & Rice Adult - James WellBeloved I'm also thinking of going down to my little local pet store and asking about the contents of the food she stocks to see if there's anything that might be good for Millie. I know she has some meat/fish and potato kibble, but I would want to make sure they are wheat and corn free and without brewers yeast ideally to avoid ingredients that dogs are commonly sensitive to.

Would I be right in thinking that if I put Millie back on chicken and rice and her digestion settles again, that would mean that it's definitely not parasites / giardia and there would be no need for a fecal test?

Also is it okay to feed raw chicken with cooked rice? Or should rice only be fed with cooked meat?


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