# Confused regarding registration



## DivinityPoodles

This may be a stupid question but...

aren't toys, minis & standards all registered separately??

How do you register a standard as purebred if it has a mini in it's backgrnd?

Thanks in advance.


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## Ladywolfe

This is a great question, and I would love to hear the answer, as well. I also get confused about the sizes. I often hear people say they have an oversized toy, or an oversized mini. I thought, that an oversized toy=miniature, and oversized miniature=spoo? At least, that is how I thought AKC worked? Maybe people just mean that the dog was registered as one of these, and outgrew the category?

And, if that happens, how do you get it changed?


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## PoodlePowerBC

I'm very interested as well ... maybe Outwest can answer? Bonnie apparently has mini in her background. And we are looking for a smaller standard


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## sgeorge

I'm not sure but from what I've read I thinkit had to do with their lines. My girl is most likely going to be an oversized toy therefore miniature sized, but as she came from toy lines and if she were to be bred (she's won't be, she's only a pet ) she would likely produce toy sized offspring, she is classified as a toy. 

Not sure about a mini x standard though. If all poodle sizes are genetically the same (I think they are), they would still be 'purebred'.


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## Liafast

On the AKC papers you check if your poodle is a toy mini or standard. According to AKC they are all one breed. Over sized toys could be registered as minis...over sized minis could be registered as standards and so on...

In theory you could breed a standard and a toy and have 'AKC' registered poodles. Have you ever seen the toy poodles with the real long back...thats a toy/mini breeding.


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## outwest

A standard is anything over 15 inches. So, by that designation many 'mini's' on this forum are actually standards and could have been registered as such. In my girls case, several generations ago a standard was purposefully bred to an oversized mini (which according to the poodle standard WAS a 'standard' poodle). In other countries there is a medium size poodle that fits in the niche between 15 inches and 18 inches with the standard starting at 18 inches and capped at 24 inches. 24 inches is a small average spoo in the US, but would be almost at the limit for showing in other countries. 

So, to answer your question- a poodle is a poodle is a poodle. They all have the exact same standard for the breed. The only difference in them is supposed to be size. Mini's have evolved to have a slightly different personality from standards, though. Toys have a different personality, too. 

Mini breeders have a heck of a time keeping their minis within the narrow size range, so there are a lot of oversized minis (very nice sizes by the way) available. I would not want to be a mini breeder sweating about size all the time! Standard poodle breeders do not have this issue because in the US, there is no height limit on a standard. Thus, many of them have gotten quite large. The people who manage the poodle standard haven't the nerve to change it (so much politics involved all the way around). Some day, maybe, someone will tackle the size issues in poodles. 

I consider my girl a standard by every sense of the word- how she is registered, her actual size and her personality are all standard-like (smaller working type standard). At this point I consider the mini moot. Many modern standards have a mini or two back there if you look, but people don't talk about it. The reds are the easiest to point to because they had to breed to red minis in order to get the color into standards. Those reds are now full sized dogs. 

The medium sized european Moyen size is being shown in the standard classes in UKC and doing well, again because 'anything over 15 inches is a standard". Technically, they could also be shown in AKC standard classes because they are registered as standards, but no one has had the guts to do it.

If you waited 6 months after getting a mini puppy to register it and found that it had grown to 17 inches, you could check the box for standard. They are all the same breed.


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## tortoise

I've been wondering about this too. I am planning on taking my big mini boy to a show at 7 months old. After that I am expecting him to be too tall. I have been wondering if I can show him as a standard even though his AKC registration says mini? I've never shown so I don't know what they do at shows to check registrations and such.


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## outwest

If you are going to show in UKC, I believe you would register him there as a standard. It is all very murky, but he would be Moyen size, which in this country is 'standard'. I have seen everything from 16 inches to 29 inches shown in UKC standard classes. It really is ridiculous. 

American Kennel Club - Poodle

Your mini boy is not unlike many, many minis. They can hardly stay below 15 inches in many cases. I wish that the poodle club would change the standard to reflect that because there are some fabulous 'oversized minis' 'moyen' poodles here. I even wrote a letter to them and received replies about this issue. Basically, they agreed with me without wanting to change anything. Change is hard.

here is the poodle club of america, which sets the standards for the breed
http://www.poodleclubofamerica.org/


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## tortoise

Is there a size/growth chart anywhere for poodles? I'm sorry this is a touch off-topic...

For instance, mine is 4 months and 12.5 inches. What can I expect him to be full grown? I know the rumor is dogs are full height by 6 months and full weight by 18 months. But I never paid attention, never cared about a dog's size so much before, lol. 

I might be worrying about nothing with the registration stuff.


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## outwest

I wouldn't worry too much about your guy being too big and he might not be. I have a growth chart, but it may be more for larger dogs? 










According to this chart, he would end up around 16.5 inches, but again this is a chart used for larger dogs, so it may not be accurate for a little guy. It was accurate for mine. Mine grew a few inches after 6 months old, by the way and seemed to top out just recently at a year. 

height in inches X 100 divided by percent shown on chart. I used 72% for 16 weeks old.

There is this, too:
MINATURE POODLES:

AGE IN MONTHS HEIGHT IN INCHES 
8 WEEKS 8 - 8.5 INCHES 
3 MONTHS 10 - 10.5 INCHES 
4 MONTHS 11 - 11.5 INCHES 
6 MONTHS 13.5 - 14 INCHES 

Some miniature poodles will take up to 12 months to finish growing. Some will finish growing in height around 6-7 months but may take a bit longer to fill out. 

HEIGHT CHART FOR STANDARD POODLES 

AGE IN MONTHS HEIGHT IN INCHES 
8 WEEKS 12 - 13 INCHES 
3 MONTHS 14 INCHES 
4 MONTHS 18-19 INCHES 
6 MONTHS 21+ INCHES 
FULL GROWN (USUALLY 24 MONTHS) 24-27 INCHES 
Standard poodles can take up to 2 years to finish growing and filling out.


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## DivinityPoodles

Good grief... Cale is 27 inches or a hair below and is only a year!!... I really don't expect him to get taller, he's already taller than both his parents... he just needs (read really needs) to fill out lol.


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## catsaqqara

Do toys minis and standards have different common ailments particular to their line, meaning OT still being toy through lineage.

And if a toy breeder has a really nice OT, do they place that dog as a pet or show them as a mini?


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## outwest

catsaqqara said:


> And if a toy breeder has a really nice OT, do they place that dog as a pet or show them as a mini?


They wouldn't show them AKC as a mini because they would have registered the litter as toys. The nice OT would be some pet homes lucky find probably. Breeders generally register the litter when born. 

There are a lot of minis that are bred to toys and registered as minis because you get more puppies from a miniature female than you do a toy female. No reputable toy or mini breeder would do that, but it is done all the time. Unfortunately, when toys became popular, people registered those litters as toys and about half the pups ended up mini size. Since the difference in size between a mini and a standard is so great, it is not done without a good reason, and there aren't many good reasons to do it. 

Yes, there are different diseases specific to the different sizes. The standards don't have nearly the drippy eye issues the smaller dogs have, for example. There are a few tests recommended for the mini/toy that aren't for the standards.


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## PaddleAddict

outwest said:


> They wouldn't show them AKC as a mini because they would have registered the litter as toys. The nice OT would be some pet homes lucky find probably. Breeders generally register the litter when born.
> 
> Yes, there are different diseases specific to the different sizes. The standards don't have nearly the drippy eye issues the smaller dogs have, for example. There are a few tests recommended for the mini/toy that aren't for the standards.


I am no expert, but from what I understand, you theoretically COULD show an oversized toy as a mini in the ring, however, an oversized toy (say 11 or 12 inches) is not likely to do well in the ring with minis, so most people wouldn't do this. If I am wrong, I hope that a show breeder will be able to pop in to correct me.

That said... toys, minis and standards are *supposed *to be identical other than size. They all have the same breed standard. But, in reality, the three varieties are NOT all identical but for size. In addition to some of the physical differences, there are temperament differences as well. So an oversized toy from toy lines really looks like a toy, not a small mini. And an oversized mini from mini lines really looks like a mini, not a small standard. in general, of course.

And yes, the different varieties have different health issues. This is one of the biggest reasons I really dislike interbreeding the varieties. Minis and toys are FAR healthier than the standards. There are certain diseases that occur in standards that do not occur in the minis and toys. 

Now that there is a genetic test for PRA, I think the biggest thing you need to worry about in minis and toys is LCP and luxating patellas (which is not life threatening and often not very dibilitating in these smaller dogs). 

In standards you really have to worry more about HD, Addison's, bloat, SA... far more serious in my opinion. One of the reasons I chose the mini (among other reasons) is they are healthier and tend to live longer than standards.


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## Ladyscarletthawk

My understanding for AKC is if you breed a toy and a mini you have to decide.. guesstimate what variety the pups will turn out to be, because you cant change the variety after they are registered. I competed againts a min/toy breeding in AKC with my mini. It was a beautiful small "mini" maybe 11.5 to 12.5 " tall in the puppy classes.. Everything about this dog SCREAMED toy poodle.. Movement, temperment, and conformation.. altho a nice one. My mini took the variety that day, but he was considerably smaller looking, and all the minis there where well within size 13- 14".
I agree with what Paddle and outwest already stated.


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## Johanna

A poodle is registered as a poodle - the registration certificate does not indicate the size. 

There are, of course, sites that indicate the size of a particular poodle. Knowing the size of a poodle's ancestors is certainly important because each variety has some specific health issues and because if you plan to show your dog in conformation you would not want to have other varieties in the background. Of course if you go back far enough there are, indeed, ancestors of a larger variety.

Regarding whether you can show a toy or mini who went over the size limit - certainly you can, but it would be difficult to win points. I do remember an oversize toy who completed his championship from the mini classes, but it was difficult - even with a top handler. If I remember correctly, that dog only needed a major - or maybe only singles - when he grew over the limit. Even though all poodles must conform to the same standard, most toy poodles do not have the same head characteristics of a mini.

FYI - I used to be an AKC judge licensed to judge poodles.


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## Johanna

*Poodle size issues*



outwest said:


> Your mini boy is not unlike many, many minis. They can hardly stay below 15 inches in many cases. I wish that the poodle club would change the standard to reflect that because there are some fabulous 'oversized minis' 'moyen' poodles here.
> here is the poodle club of america, which sets the standards for the breed
> http://www.poodleclubofamerica.org/


Many breeds have size limits. It seems to be a human characteristic to think that bigger is better, so people tend to breed to the top of the size limit. If there were no size limits we would soon have only big ones, I think!

I am so glad you noted that it is the Poodle Club of America that maintains the poodle standard. For all breeds, it is the parent club, not AKC, that manages the breed standard. The poodle standard for the USA is consistent with poodle standards in other countries. For example, I just check the British, the Australian, and the FCI (European) standards for poodles and all of them specify that a poodle should be a solid color. There are some minor variations - I remember when the USA standard added the part that the "entire shaven foot" must be visible. That came about because for many years the miniature variety had really flat feet so people showing miniatures let the leg puffs cover the feet almost completely!


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