# Blue puppy - is it hard to find?



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

The fading gene that causes a black puppy to clear to silver (light gray) or blue (dark gray) has not been identified. But the way people who have studied this think it works is this: black poodles have no fading genes, blue poodles have one and silver poodles and two. A black puppy born to two black parents will always be black (there are no fading genes for the puppy to inherit). A black puppy born to two silver parents will always be silver (both parents will contribute a fading gene, so the pup will have two fading genes). It gets more complicated when a blue poodle is one of the parents because the blue poodle might contribute a fading gene or a non-fading gene. So a litter with two blue parents could have pups that are black (inherited a non-fading gene from each parent), silver (inherited a fading gene from each parent) or blue (one of each).

It gets even more complicated if one of the parents is white, cream, apricot or red. The white/cream/apricot/red gene (which has been identified and can be tested for) is recessive. So a puppy needs to inherit two of these genes to be white/cream/apricot or red. If you want to know if a white, cream, apricot or red dog carries the fading gene that causes a black puppy to clear to silver or blue, you need to look at that dog's parents or grandparents. The shade of white, cream, apricot or red is irrelevant. Take for example, a cream bitch who had two black parents (a cream puppy can be born to two black parents if both parents carry the recessive cream gene). You know that this bitch does not carry the gene that would make a black puppy clear to blue or silver because both of her parents are black. If you breed her to a black stud dog, any puppy born black will remain black. But if her parents were both silver (or if even one was silver) then she could produce a blue puppy if she was bred to a black dog. 

For example, my girl Cammie is cream. One of her parents is black and one is blue. I bred her to a silver boy. She had 4 cream puppies and one blue puppy. The blue puppy was born black but her face was just beginning to clear when she was groomed before going to her new home at 9 weeks. So she inherited a non-fading gene from Cammie and a fading gene from her silver father.

Hope this helps.


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## princesspenny (Feb 16, 2015)

wow- this color stuff is so crazy...I have a red poodle, both parents are red/apricot along with her grandparents- all reds. I was wondering what i'd get if i bred her to a black- with all blacks in the pedigree. Some red and some black? or would there be other faded shades? I need to research this more obviously..lol.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

princesspenny said:


> wow- this color stuff is so crazy...I have a red poodle, both parents are red/apricot along with her grandparents- all reds. I was wondering what i'd get if i bred her to a black- with all blacks in the pedigree. Some red and some black? or would there be other faded shades? I need to research this more obviously..lol.


Hi Princess -- If the black stud dog does not carry the white/cream/apricot/red gene, then you would get all black. That is because the white/cream/apricot/red gene is recessive and you need two copies of it to produce a white, cream apricot or red puppy. If the black dog does carry the white/cream/apricot/red gene, you would expect some reds and some blacks.

If you care about the color of the puppies, you might want to have the proposed stud dog tested. You can test to see if a dog carries the white/cream/apricot/red gene and you can test to see if he carries the brown gene. There is no test currently available for the fading gene. See the following page for more information:
VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Canine - List of Services - Coat Color - Coat Color Chart B


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## princesspenny (Feb 16, 2015)

Thank you! Thats good to know! I do not want an all black litter so that rules out a stud dog i was looking at because its all black in its pedigree. On my girls 5gen pedigree it lists every single dog as red on both sides of parents. I have the parents 5 gen peds too and its all reds. Some have DNA #s listed? What does that mean? I think one has an OFA # too? Sorry all new to me, I have lots of research to do.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

peppersb said:


> The fading gene that causes a black puppy to clear to silver (light gray) or blue (dark gray) has not been identified. But the way people who have studied this think it works is this: black poodles have no fading genes, blue poodles have one and silver poodles and two. A black puppy born to two black parents will always be black (there are no fading genes for the puppy to inherit). A black puppy born to two silver parents will always be silver (both parents will contribute a fading gene, so the pup will have two fading genes). It gets more complicated when a blue poodle is one of the parents because the blue poodle might contribute a fading gene or a non-fading gene. So a litter with two blue parents could have pups that are black (inherited a non-fading gene from each parent), silver (inherited a fading gene from each parent) or blue (one of each).


If that's how it goes, then every breeding of black to silver should result in all-blue litters.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

peccan said:


> If that's how it goes, then every breeding of black to silver should result in all-blue litters.



It can't be that precisely like that, because I have seen my breeder do blackxSilver breedings, and get silvers, blues, and apparently black puppies (though I suspect that they will eventually be bad blacks, or clear to blue later) She does that to improve her Silvers, not to get blacks or blues.
Taylee was from such a breeding, and she was black until about a year, then began to clear to blue from the tail up at about a year , and took a full year to completely change over. Then she got lighter through her entire life, and was only maybe one shade darker than my silver by the time that she passed.

Timi is from a Blackxapricot Black Dam, and a redxapricot Sire, and all three puppies in the litter were black (breeder was trying for apricots), and I was wondering if all of that red and apricot would bring in fading genes. She is getting lighter, but so far very evenly so, not in a clearing from the tail up sort of way, so maybe a bad black?


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

This is another fun site for reading about color genetics in an understandable format: 

Dog Coat Colour Genetics

--Q


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> It can't be that precisely like that, because I have seen my breeder do blackxSilver breedings, and get silvers, blues, and apparently black puppies (though I suspect that they will eventually be bad blacks, or clear to blue later) She does that to improve her Silvers, not to get blacks or blues.
> Taylee was from such a breeding, and she was black until about a year, then began to clear to blue from the tail up at about a year , and took a full year to completely change over. Then she got lighter through her entire life, and was only maybe one shade darker than my silver by the time that she passed....?


What I'd give to know if those blacks really were blacks or just slow clearing blues! And for data of breedings between black, blue, and silver.

In any case, if a black and silver can produce true silver offspring, then silver cannot require homozygous silver factor, given that such a factor would not allow true black colour.

One thing I'm hypothesizing is at least three alleles with non-simple dominance (how certain dilutions work in cavies). Let's call the locus V for silver.

- V is for strong clear
- v is for weak clear
- + (wild type) is for no clear, staying pigment

Assume black base for all.
VV for platinum silver.
Vv or V+ for darker silver.
vv and v+ for blue. 
++ for staying pigment.

v+ could alternatively be a dark, very slow clearing blue and V+ a very dark silver.

In a three allele model, silver and black could produce silver and blue but no true staying black if silver parent was Vv. Lack of v in our local gene pool would explain why breeders here have bred black to silver yet no one seems to know if blue poodles.

I met my first blue just a few days ago, and her tightly curled tail indicates no fancy breeding, i.e. could descend from pet lines where careful selection has not eliminated the factor for blue.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

peccan said:


> What I'd give to know if those blacks really were blacks or just slow clearing blues! And for data of breedings between black, blue, and silver.
> 
> In any case, if a black and silver can produce true silver offspring, then silver cannot require homozygous silver factor, given that such a factor would not allow true black colour.
> 
> ...


Very interesting theory. We certainly observe a wide range of color in silver-blue-black dogs, not just 3 distinct colors. Also I think it is interesting that the allele has not been found. So I think the idea that something more complex is going on makes some sense! (But I'm not a scientist, so what do I know?)


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

princesspenny said:


> Thank you! Thats good to know! I do not want an all black litter so that rules out a stud dog i was looking at because its all black in its pedigree. On my girls 5gen pedigree it lists every single dog as red on both sides of parents. I have the parents 5 gen peds too and its all reds. Some have DNA #s listed? What does that mean? I think one has an OFA # too? Sorry all new to me, I have lots of research to do.


You don't need to worry about DNA numbers. Those are required for storing frozen semen and for stud dogs who have sired more than a certain number of litters. 

To know if the black stud would be capable of producing puppies on the cream spectrum, you want to have him color tested.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

peppersb said:


> The fading gene that causes a black puppy to clear to silver (light gray) or blue (dark gray) has not been identified. But the way people who have studied this think it works is this: black poodles have no fading genes, blue poodles have one and silver poodles and two. A black puppy born to two black parents will always be black (there are no fading genes for the puppy to inherit). A black puppy born to two silver parents will always be silver (both parents will contribute a fading gene, so the pup will have two fading genes). It gets more complicated when a blue poodle is one of the parents because the blue poodle might contribute a fading gene or a non-fading gene. So a litter with two blue parents could have pups that are black (inherited a non-fading gene from each parent), silver (inherited a fading gene from each parent) or blue (one of each).
> 
> It gets even more complicated if one of the parents is white, cream, apricot or red. The white/cream/apricot/red gene (which has been identified and can be tested for) is recessive. So a puppy needs to inherit two of these genes to be white/cream/apricot or red. If you want to know if a white, cream, apricot or red dog carries the fading gene that causes a black puppy to clear to silver or blue, you need to look at that dog's parents or grandparents. The shade of white, cream, apricot or red is irrelevant. Take for example, a cream bitch who had two black parents (a cream puppy can be born to two black parents if both parents carry the recessive cream gene). You know that this bitch does not carry the gene that would make a black puppy clear to blue or silver because both of her parents are black. If you breed her to a black stud dog, any puppy born black will remain black. But if her parents were both silver (or if even one was silver) then she could produce a blue puppy if she was bred to a black dog.
> 
> ...


That's one theory, but in reality I'm not sure it's quite simple.

To the OP - it should not be hard for you to find a nice blue companion from a quality breeder who is experienced in breeding for that color.


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## maelee (Mar 19, 2015)

Wow there has been really great feedback on this post! Thank you everyone for the input! 

From what I have read from these theories and links, it really does sound like it will be polygenic and probably with more than just two genes. For all we know it could be repeated genes that have different variations of fading based on the number in the genotype total! (how cool and complex would that be!)

I'd just like to follow up on people's experiences, if anyone wants to share. 

Is it really hard to predict if the pup has the possibility of going blue?
What are the best methods to try to guess? Looking at the pedigree, looking for the brown highlights when they are older pups?

Thanks again for all the great information.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

maelee said:


> Wow there has been really great feedback on this post! Thank you everyone for the input!
> 
> From what I have read from these theories and links, it really does sound like it will be polygenic and probably with more than just two genes. For all we know it could be repeated genes that have different variations of fading based on the number in the genotype total! (how cool and complex would that be!)
> 
> ...


A breeder experienced in producing the color and with extensive knowledge of the pedigree should know by the time the puppy goes home whether it will be blue or not by the way it appears. Nothing is ever guaranteed when it comes to color, but absolutely, blues, especially ones that will be lighter, should be able to be recognized by 8 weeks.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Both of my standard poodles are blue, and you could see their faces were lighter than the rest of them at 12 weeks old when we got them from the breeder. Also their black hair had a tinge of brown in the sunlight.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I think that the more difficult thing is to find a good black. I think that if you got a black puppy with one silver parent, they almost certainly will change at some point. Maybe not as quickly as a born blue puppy, but it will happen.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Phoenix is from a blue bitch x cafe' dog. In the litter there were a brown nosed pale cream, a silver beige, blues, a BLACK and my BROWN boy. Those colors make sense if you follow the G for greying gene theory. 

The breeding was the equivalent of breeding two blues. According to the greying gene theory that would give each puppy a 25% chance of being silver, a 25% chance of being black, and a 50% chance of being blue. 

So 1 silver beige, 3 blues, 1 black, 1 brown and one unknown g status cream comes pretty close to those odds... 

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH RELYING ON PEDIGREES IS THE COLOR LISTED IS OFTEN WRONG. The paperwork is sent in as puppies and the calling the difference between a black and blue or brown and cafe puppy can be hard. PLUS in the past blues were not considered anything but a bad black so they were registered as that and cafe' were often just considered faded browns...


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## schpeckie (Jun 29, 2010)

When I got my girls, they were jet black. The father was white and the mother was apricot colour. Lo and behold within 2 years, the girls started changing to what I thought was silver, but at the Dog show last year, a poodle breeder said that my girls were Blue.

Sylvia & the Girls!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

schpeckie said:


> When I got my girls, they were jet black. The father was white and the mother was apricot colour. Lo and behold within 2 years, the girls started changing to what I thought was silver, but at the Dog show last year, a poodle breeder said that my girls were Blue.
> 
> Sylvia & the Girls!


And they are absolutely beautiful!

Question - are you sure your girls' parents were white and apricot? Black/blue/silver is not genetically possible from that combination!


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

schpeckie said:


> When I got my girls, they were jet black. The father was white and the mother was apricot colour. Lo and behold within 2 years, the girls started changing to what I thought was silver, but at the Dog show last year, a poodle breeder said that my girls were Blue.
> 
> Sylvia & the Girls!


Yeah, had she been silver the clearing would have been obvious within a month.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> And they are absolutely beautiful!
> 
> Question - are you sure your girls' parents were white and apricot? Black/blue/silver is not genetically possible from that combination!


I'm guessing that the mother was bbEe -- so the mother's "apricot color" is coming from bb (brown), probably faded, not from ee (apricot). A bbEe bred to a white Bbee or BBee could produce pups that are BbEe which would be born black and could clear to blue or silver.

As Peccan said, the clearing would start much sooner if they were silver.

I love blue -- one of my favorite colors!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

peppersb said:


> I'm guessing that the mother was bbEe -- so the mother's "apricot color" is coming from bb (brown), probably faded, not from ee (apricot). A bbEe bred to a white Bbee or BBee could produce pups that are BbEe which would be born black and could clear to blue or silver.
> 
> As Peccan said, the clearing would start much sooner if they were silver.
> 
> I love blue -- one of my favorite colors!


Yes, that is what I think, too. The "apricot" parent must have been brown (probably cafe au lait). To me the difference is obvious, but there have been some people who mistakenly think Millie is apricot!


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