# Concerns about new dog



## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Hi all, 

You may have seen that I've gotten a Spoo. I'm deeply concerned about his gait and propioception. I've seen clumsy and awkward puppies, but this is something more. He's running into things, tips over easily, and has almost hackneyed gait, but kicking out vs just picking up when walking as if he can't fully control his hind end. When I feel the stability of his back legs, they wobble easily vs being well planted. I sense there's something deeply wrong. I've watched poodles move, and this is not normal. Part of why I chose the poodle too was self-awareness and agility. I've seen 8 week old puppies with more coordination (he's 7.5 months). And he can't manage stairs - just one or two in and out of my ranch home. He is also very stressed. He barked nonstop until I slept on the floor, well, laid on the floor, and even then he paced most of the night. He is social, like I was told, zero human apprehension, but the lack of coordination is deeply concerning. 

I get that he's had a massive shift, which may account for the stress. But I'm sitting here, exhausted, wishing I hadn't done this. I am seeing a massive amount of remedial work if he could ever do therapy/compete in sport.

My vet is locked up until next Monday which is within the two week window per contract. But, I may try another vet for a quicker opinion. Has anyone experienced anything like this? 

I've driven a long distance to get a dog before, and I've never seen this....When I saw his gait for the first, time, I though, oh, he's been in the kennel and is stiff. Then I felt like I was being a perfectionist.

I'm going to talk to his breeder today and let her know I'm deeply concerned - I'm just not sure how. If any of you have faced this, I'd appreciate suggestions.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Can you post video?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Was that his first night with you? If so, I would expect anxiety. Even significant anxiety. But hind weakness is concerning. I would call your breeder first thing, and if this is something new, treat it as a veterinary emergency.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Many dogs have to be taught how to do steps and stairs. But the gait issue is definitely worth checking out ASAP.

You're in a stressful situation and so is he. His anxiety may well lessen as he becomes more comfortable in your home. But he does need that check-up.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Is this the puppy you got from Bar-None? I do agree, post a video of these behaviors.

As an older puppy you won’t see his true self for several months as he relaxes and gets used to the new routine in your home compared to where he was living before. In a few days you should see a difference as he settles down. He is also picking up and reacting to your stress. This has been a huge change for the puppy. He may be skittish, even shaking from fear or zooming as a stress reliever.

I agree with dianaleez, it’s not unusual to have to teach a dog to go up and downstairs…. Going up is different than going down. Doesn’t take long for a healthy dog to master stairs. I had a friend who got a rescue greyhound from the race track: that dog had never seen stairs.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Yes, this was the first night. I was able to get into one of my two vets today for eval today. Unfortunately I don't have video yet. He just kicked one leg wide to the left going up one step outdoors.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Skylar said:


> Is this the puppy you got from Bar-None? I do agree, post a video of these behaviors.
> 
> As an older puppy you won’t see his true self for several months as he relaxes and gets used to the new routine in your home compared to where he was living before. In a few days you should see a difference as he settles down. He is also picking up and reacting to your stress. This has been a huge change for the puppy. He may be skittish, even shaking from fear or zooming as a stress reliever.
> 
> I agree with dianaleez, it’s not unusual to have to teach a dog to go up and downstairs…. Going up is different than going down. Doesn’t take long for a healthy dog to master stairs. I had a friend who got a rescue greyhound from the race track: that dog had never seen stairs.


Yes, he's a Kalan Bar-None dog. He struggles going up and down (face planted down two stairs).


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

How did he travel to you? Could something have happened along the way?

If his gait is so unsteady that he is literally falling and bumping into things, _please_ treat this as a medical emergency.  Will be hoping for good news from your vet.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

He's at the vet now- they took him for the day to observe and check him out. The tech noticed his rear leg kicked out strangely just getting off the scale, which is only a few inches off the floor. It's the strangest thing I've ever seen. My dad, who is not observant, saw it as well, and he remarked that he'd never seen a dog or puppy walk like this. Will let you all know how things go.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Glad you got him into the vet for an evaluation. Some breeders don't let puppies climb stairs until they are older, for fear of aggravating hip dysplasia issues. However, this puppy sounds unusually uncoordinated.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

My Matteo who is 6 months has never been up or down steps. Yesterday he was faced with 2 steps and could not coordinate at all. So I definitely need to teach him 'how to'. 
I am glad the vet has taken him in for a check up. Hopefully it all works out.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

The vet said it's neurological - and likely untreatable. I'm gutted. And very frustrated.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)




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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oh I am so sorry.  I am so sad for both you and this little boy.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

I am so sorry.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Terrible news, and I'm surprised that Bar-None didn't catch this earlier. The only bright side here is that _you_ saw this right away, got him to a vet, and can focus on making this right for you and the dog.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I’m so sorry for both you and the puppy. I’m shocked they didn’t disclose something so serious and abnormal. What a sad ordeal.


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

TerraFirma said:


> The vet said it's neurological - and likely untreatable. I'm gutted. And very frustrated.


How awful! I'm so sorry. And why wouldn't the breeder have noticed this??


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

What a nightmare  I am so sorry. This is the second dog on the forum in a short amount of time that has come from a "reputable" breeder and had a serious problem that wasn't disclosed. Unconscionable.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

So sorry for you all. Hopefully the pup is not in pain.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

At 7.5 months I can't imagine the breeder didn't notice something odd. This is really shocking.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

I am so sorry...I can only imagine how you must be feeling. Have you talked to the breeder about it?


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

MaizieFrosty said:


> What a nightmare  I am so sorry. This is the second dog on the forum in a short amount of time that has come from a "reputable" breeder and had a serious problem that wasn't disclosed. Unconscionable.


I'm sad for anyone else who experienced this. I will be returning him--hopefully soon because this is like caring for a special needs dog. He struggled to pick a ball up - it took a few attempts. He has to be carried in and out of my house. He's happily chewing a beef cheek now. I was told he will need to be treated as a seizure risk because of his condition. I can't wrap my brain around it.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

I wonder if there is any possibility that something happened to him in transit to exacerbate his condition and make it more noticeable. This is such a tragic story; I’m sorry it hasn’t gone as planned.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Starla said:


> I wonder if there is any possibility that something happened to him in transit to exacerbate his condition and make it more noticeable. This is such a tragic story; I’m sorry it hasn’t gone as planned.


It's very hard to say. I was told he traveled a lot to and from shows where other dogs were being shown. He's actually quietest in the car, and it has been the only time he's slept - unsure if the movement helps his brain?


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

So sad for everyone involved.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

So sorry to hear, poor pup. Keep us posted.


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## Miki (Dec 25, 2021)

TerraFirma said:


> I'm sad for anyone else who experienced this. I will be returning him--hopefully soon because this is like caring for a special needs dog. He struggled to pick a ball up - it took a few attempts. He has to be carried in and out of my house. He's happily chewing a beef cheek now. I was told he will need to be treated as a seizure risk because of his condition. I can't wrap my brain around it.


I am beyond heartbroken for you, for the pup, for the state of the fancy that can't seem to understand that we're willing and able and determined to do what it takes to welcome a Poodle into our lives but first the fancy needs to do its job - breed healthy poodles, don't even consider dumping one with serious, expensive problems, and be transparent about everything.

Is it hard to place a pup with health/temperament issues? Yup. I was once asked, as a non-fancy person, to help place a pup (not a poodle) with pemfigus, sold at the same price/slight discount as a healthy pup, with little disclosure of the chronic care required for the condition. The biggest concern was keeping the condition hidden from the fancy, i.e., protecting the breeder's reputation. 

I have no way of knowing if a similar thing is happening here, but from this cheap seat it looks like someone knew and didn't care about you, or the pup. 

We do care. About all of you.

🤗❤💔


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## Sroodle8 (Dec 23, 2021)

This is awful. Did the breeder really think you wouldn't notice the issues?


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Did the breeder know you were looking for a performance dog? This is unconscionable and I feel you are owed an explanation. Please get this on video.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Who transported him to you? And have you had a chance to speak with the breeder?


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

So sorry. This is heartbreaking.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Dianaleez said:


> So sad for everyone involved.





Raindrops said:


> Did the breeder know you were looking for a performance dog? This is unconscionable and I feel you are owed an explanation. Please get this on video.


Yes, I said CGC and hopefully therapy work and even spoke of how I'd locked in obedience classes and was hoping to try rally to see if he'd enjoy it.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Who transported him to you? And have you had a chance to speak with the breeder?


He was transported by


PeggyTheParti said:


> Who transported him to you? And have you had a chance to speak with the breeder?


He was transported to me by Shawn Clute, handler, co-owner, and co-breeder with Bar-None. To my knowledge, this dog was born and raised with her and not Nancy. There wasn't much explanation other than, he was just at the vet, and how could the vet not see it. My concern is how could anyone not see it, vet or not. Once I got him home, I was very concerned about a neuro issue. I am not trying to tarnish anyone's name/relationships, but when I spoke with the vet I used this morning, her comment was that she highly doubted any vet had seen this dog for some time because it was so apparent. He presented with dysmetria, hypertremia of the hind limbs, inability to stand if one back foot was lifted, delayed CP, and head tremor. They did not do blood work, but his breath was quite foul and odd. I suspect with a full panel, he'd present other internal issues. I hate saying this, but based on what the vet shared with me, his future does not have high quality. He'll be an injury risk, will likely worsen, and is a seizure risk. 

I hope that anyone reading this, even if you are a super researcher, you trust your gut when something feels off. I ignored many times the last few weeks because this seemed so right. Bless that little boy's sweet heart. He is so gentle and kind.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m struggling to understand why anyone would do this. I hope you’ve spoken to both breeders by now and have some answers, as well as next steps. I’m so sorry.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Oof 😣


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This is the thread that MaizieFrosty referred to. The outcome was very sad but she might feel up to conversing privately. In her Charlie's case the confounding factor was a very recent surgery which was being considered as a possible cause. As with sweet J, the trip to the vet told the story.
(10) Behaviour after neutering | Poodle Forum


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I am terribly sorry to read this. Gentle hugs.


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## BennieJets (Oct 10, 2021)

Oh gosh. I’m sorry for anyone having to face such heartbreak. If there is any silver lining, I am glad that this little guy received your care, concern, and love for this brief time. Every living being deserves that kind of dignity and respect and you have given him that. Perhaps it was for you to anchor in the power of your instinct, as you say, and for him to have the blessing of care. I’m sorry it’s been such a painful and frustrating experience.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

BennieJets said:


> heartbreak. If there is any silver lining, I am glad that this little guy received your care, concern, and love for this brief time. Every living being deserves that kind of dignity and respect and you have given him that. Perhaps it was for you to anchor in the power of your instinct, as you say, and for him to have the blessing of care. I’m sorry it’s been such a painful and frustrating experience.


I thought the same this morning. He is with another handler now, and I felt immediately relieved seeing her interactions with him. She was very gentle and affectionate towards him (which is something I've seen in video/photos with all dogs she handles - always smiling and loving on the dogs). She will work with his breeder on next steps. Honestly, I will not be surprised if he's put down. His quality of life will continue to decline.

I will be sending a summary and documentation of this to Nancy Wilson later today for due diligence purposes. I am trusting that this will be a lesson learned and change some of their practices moving forward. If anyone has advice on any other due diligence efforts, please PM me.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

TerraFirma said:


> I thought the same this morning. He is with another handler now, and I felt immediately relieved seeing her interactions with him. She was very gentle and affectionate towards him (which is something I've seen in video/photos with all dogs she handles - always smiling and loving on the dogs). She will work with his breeder on next steps. Honestly, I will not be surprised if he's put down. His quality of life will continue to decline.
> 
> I will be sending a summary and documentation of this to Nancy Wilson later today for due diligence purposes. I am trusting that this will be a lesson learned and change some of their practices moving forward. If anyone has advice on any other due diligence efforts, please PM me.


I'm so sorry you went through this, but I'm glad he is with caring people that can best decide where he should go. I am more and more convinced that this must be some sort of condition that only recently surfaced. I can't see them having advanced knowledge of it and still placing him with you. Maybe a stroke or something. I'm very sorry you will have to continue to wait for your perfect match.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Raindrops said:


> I'm so sorry you went through this, but I'm glad he is with caring people that can best decide where he should go. I am more and more convinced that this must be some sort of condition that only recently surfaced. I can't see them having advanced knowledge of it and still placing him with you. Maybe a stroke or something. I'm very sorry you will have to continue to wait for your perfect match.


It's illogical to place a dog with these issues, so it could be that the severity did peak over this weekend and had previously manifested in "awkward, clumsy puppy." I actually wondered if he had worsened from Sunday to Monday afternoon. 

He'll need thousands of dollars in diagnostics to definitively determine the root cause(s) and should be taken to neurologist, including MRI and possible CSF. I honestly didn't have the mental state yesterday to have an in depth conversation with the vet on protocol for next steps. She said bluntly that if she were in my shoes, she'd return the dog for the breeder to send to neurologist.

I work in research and development in Pharma - and my therapeutic area of focus has been neuro, so none of this is out of my wheelhouse - I wish I had more presence of mind yesterday. But, I will be sending everyone involved a full summary and the exam findings and ask for update if he's sent to a neurologist.


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## AshersMom (Aug 9, 2021)

TerraFirma said:


> It's illogical to place a dog with these issues, so it could be that the severity did peak over this weekend and had previously manifested in "awkward, clumsy puppy." I actually wondered if he had worsened from Sunday to Monday afternoon.
> 
> He'll need thousands of dollars in diagnostics to definitively determine the root cause(s) and should be taken to neurologist, including MRI and possible CSF. I honestly didn't have the mental state yesterday to have an in depth conversation with the vet on protocol for next steps. She said bluntly that if she were in my shoes, she'd return the dog for the breeder to send to neurologist.
> 
> I work in research and development in Pharma - and my therapeutic area of focus has been neuro, so none of this is out of my wheelhouse - I wish I had more presence of mind yesterday. But, I will be sending everyone involved a full summary and the exam findings and ask for update if he's sent to a neurologist.


Of the 4 Greyhounds I had (from puppies) 3 of them had neurological issues. One, Mai Tai (6-1/2) had a small event and then a massive stroke the next night. I let her go the next morning as her entire left side was gone. My tripod Grey, Rush, my spirit dog, had a huge neurological event at 2 a.m. Sept. 20, 2014. I let him go at the ER at 3 a.m. My love. 5-1/2 years old and he came back to me 3 nights in a row at the time of his death. My 4th Grey Skylar had several neurological events starting at age 2 and then at 5, developed myocarditis then, more neurological a few months later and then I lost her to a NexGard flea chew just after she turned 6. My first Grey, Captain Morgan, came to me at 6 weeks old and one of his back legs literally broke off at age 4-1/2. Worst form of osteosarcoma. I let him cross the Bridge after the diagnosis came back.
It is heartbreaking to see any dog with neuro issues at any age. After losing all my Greys by the age of 6-1/2 I switched to a Spoo puppy last year. Just couldn't take the heartbreak of another Grey. 
I am so sorry you and the pup have to go through this. There is no way the breeder would not see the problem in that time span. My heart breaks for you and the pup. Bless you both.


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## The Popster (Feb 23, 2021)

Heart goes out to you...so sorry


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

AshersMom said:


> Of the 4 Greyhounds I had (from puppies) 3 of them had neurological issues. One, Mai Tai (6-1/2) had a small event and then a massive stroke the next night. I let her go the next morning as her entire left side was gone. My tripod Grey, Rush, my spirit dog, had a huge neurological event at 2 a.m. Sept. 20, 2014. I let him go at the ER at 3 a.m. My love. 5-1/2 years old and he came back to me 3 nights in a row at the time of his death. My 4th Grey Skylar had several neurological events starting at age 2 and then at 5, developed myocarditis then, more neurological a few months later and then I lost her to a NexGard flea chew just after she turned 6. My first Grey, Captain Morgan, came to me at 6 weeks old and one of his back legs literally broke off at age 4-1/2. Worst form of osteosarcoma. I let him cross the Bridge after the diagnosis came back.
> It is heartbreaking to see any dog with neuro issues at any age. After losing all my Greys by the age of 6-1/2 I switched to a Spoo puppy last year. Just couldn't take the heartbreak of another Grey.
> I am so sorry you and the pup have to go through this. There is no way the breeder would not see the problem in that time span. My heart breaks for you and the pup. Bless you both.


I am so sorry that you faced so much heartbreak. 

From what I am learning, depending on the final diagnosis, it is feasible that this did not manifest in a way anyone would have determined was a serious neuro issue, and that the shift in environment _and pack_ could have triggered severity of symptom onset. I have confirm from third party that at 5 months old, there were absolutely no outward signs, and that he read as a happy, outgoing, typical boy.


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

My elderly poodle passed after a neurological issue (3 seizures/strokes in under an hour) that completely paralyzed him on one side and caused him to yelp every couple of minutes - not out of pain, per my vet, but due to a neurological misfiring. It was horrible and I had to put him down. It was the kindest thing I could do for him. It's heartbreaking and I feel your pain. I'm glad you listened to your gut. 

_hugs_


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

This is so very sad, for you and for the puppy, and even the breeder I am glad you found out before the window closed. Sending hugs


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## Blazenoliver (Jun 18, 2021)

TerraFirma said:


> The vet said it's neurological - and likely untreatable. I'm gutted. And very frustrated.


I also have a SPOO, but he's almost 11 years old. He has neurological issues with his back legs too, just diagnosed because I was concerned about some fecal incontinence. He "bunny hops" up steps, especially if he's tired. I'm so sorry you are going through this with such a young pup. Good luck.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I am so sorry about this whole affair. Kudos to you for picking up on the pup's problems. My sister had a mare that gave birth to a foal who was born with part of his brain missing. Like you, she first thought the foal was just clumsy, but it quickly became apparent that he had huge problems. It turned out that the horse who had sired the foal had several other offspring who had the same problem. The other owners did not recognize the neurological problems. The foals had to be put down. Most horse contracts have a clause about if the foal stands the contract is considered met. Fortunately the owner of the stud, when presented with the evidence from the necropsy, allowed a no cost breeding with a different stud. It is so heartbreaking to lose a young animal to a disorder. I know how much you wanted this pup. Please keep in touch with us.


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