# Color genetics and breeding.



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I bred my Cammie (cream) to a silver AKC champion, so I did a fair amount of research in trying to figure out what colors I would get. (I ended up with 4 creams and one blue, but that is not necessarily what you will get.)

As you probably know, silvers, blues and blacks are all born black. I think it is easier to think of your question as 2 questions: (1) If you breed an apricot to a silver, how likely is it that you will get one or more born black? (2) Of those born black, how likely is it that they will clear to silver? 

The first question is easier because the genes that produce black (born black) or apricot/cream/white/red have been identified. 

The apricot dog that you are going to breed is either BBee or Bbee or bbee. (The small b means that the dog carries the recessive gene for brown; the small e means that the dog carries the recessive gene for cream, apricot, white or red.) The silver dog is either BBEe or BbEe or BBEE or BbEE. Assuming for the moment that at least one of the parents does not carry the 'b' for brown, then you will not get any browns. So let's look at 'E' and 'e'. The puppies will get one 'E' or 'e' from each parent. The apricot dog can only contribute an 'e' so you know that the puppies will have at least one 'e'. If the silver dog is BBEE or BbEE, then he can only contribute an 'E'. That would mean that that he cannot produce any apricot, cream, white or red offspring because apricot, cream, white or red poodles have to be ee -- two of the recessive 'e' genes. If the silver dog is BBEe or BbEe, then he could contribute either an 'E' or an 'e' and both would be equally likely. So depending on whether the silver dog is EE or Ee, you will either have all of the pups born black or the probability would be that half would be born black and half apricot (or cream, white, red). You might be able to know the genetic makeup of the silver dog by looking at previous offspring or the colors of the parents, grandparents, etc. Or you can have the dog genetically tested for color so that you would know for sure. See the chart on this page: VetGen Colour Test - Poodles in Scandinavia

The question about whether puppies that are born black will clear to blue or silver or stay black is not as easy. The gene(s) that controls this has not been identified, but people do have theories about it. The simplest theory is that silver poodles have 2 fading genes, blue poodles have one and black poodles have none. So if that's the way it works, then you know that the silver parent is going to contribute a fading gene. The question is what is the apricot parent going to contribute. My understanding of this, is that the extent to which the apricot parent may or may not have faded is irrelevant. You need to look back to any black, blue or silver dogs in the apricot's pedigree to see if a fading gene is or is not present. So for example, if the apricot's parents were both black, then the apricot will not be contributing a fading gene and you would expect that any puppies born black will clear to blue. That's what happened in my litter. Cammie's parents were both black, so she did not contribute a fading gene. Sting, the dad, was silver so he did contribute a fading gene. Our one puppy that was born black is clearing to blue. But, as I said, the fading gene has not been identified, and it may be a bit more complex than what I've just described. But I do think it would be helpful for you to know whether there are black, blue or silver dogs in the apricot dog's pedigree.

Hope this helps.

PS. Just realized that I may have misread your question. I'll leave all the stuff that I said in place because it might be helpful. But if you have a silver who is out of a silver and an apricot, then you know that your silver is Ee. The 'e' would have been contributed by the apricot parent, so he has to have at lease one 'e'. He can't be ee because if he was, he'd be white, cream, apricot or red. He might be BB or Bb. If there are no browns anywhere in the pedigree, then he is probably BB. So BBEe (or BbEe if he carries the brown gene).


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

That was interesting. Still trying to understand what color Timi is/will be. So did I understand you correctly - they do not believe that it is a fading gene that determines where in the spectrum of red/apricot/cream a puppy will fall? 
Timi is 3/4 apricot - her sire's pedigree is all red/apricot as far back as I could see, and her mother is a good black who was also from a red x black breeding. So you don't think that Timi has any fading genes? I don't think that she is a good black. Sh has lots of red tone to her coat in the sun, but that may be sun damage, as I don't see it on her clipped areas.
So far I really don't see her getting any lighter than she was a year ago....


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

Thank you! 
I'm looking at a pup that is currently black, produced from a silver/Apricot pairing. She has two (currently) black siblings. I think. I know one of the other pups is black. 
The owner of the pup, who is not the breeder and can only give me minimal information about the parents, says the pup has some brown undertones on her hind legs, which some say is a sign of silvering. 

And since I'm a dork, I began attempting to research poodle genetics. What I've found is, without knowing more about her lineage it will be difficult to fully assess her potential for turning blue or silver. LOL

On a different note: BLUE vs SILVER? Blue is a muted/diluted black? Silver is... Silver? How do you definitively tell the difference between blue and silver? Is blue a consistent color throughout the coat, while silver dogs may have darker ears/lighter legs/etc?


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

Oh. Also, she is nine weeks old. Her face has been shaved and it remained black, no gray/blue as seen in some pups that will blue out (right?)


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Tiny Poodles said:


> So did I understand you correctly - they do not believe that it is a fading gene that determines where in the spectrum of red/apricot/cream a puppy will fall?


I don't know much about what genes determine where on the spectrum of red/apricot/cream a dog will end up. But I don't think it is the same fading gene that determines the final color for a black/blue/silver pup. Unlike black/blue/silver poodles which are all born black, red/apricot/cream poodles are not all born red. If I wanted to guess the color that a red/apricot/cream puppy would end up, I'd look at the colors of the red/apricot/cream dogs in his pedigree and I would pay no attention to whether there were dogs that had the fading gene for the black/blue/silver spectrum.



Tiny Poodles said:


> Timi is 3/4 apricot - her sire's pedigree is all red/apricot as far back as I could see, and her mother is a good black who was also from a red x black breeding. So you don't think that Timi has any fading genes? I don't think that she is a good black. Sh has lots of red tone to her coat in the sun, but that may be sun damage, as I don't see it on her clipped areas.
> So far I really don't see her getting any lighter than she was a year ago....


If Timi is black and has no blue or silver dogs in her pedigree, then would not have the fading gene.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Mehpen: My guess is that she will be blue. She would have gotten a fading gene from her silver parent so I don't think she will be black. But the fact that she still looks black, even on her face, makes me think that she will not be silver. By nine weeks, a silver puppy will definitely be lighter at the roots so you can see it if the face has been shaved. A blue puppy will also usually start to look just a little bit lighter by nine weeks, but sometimes the difference is very subtle.

Blue is a dark gray. Silver is a lighter gray. There is really a whole range of colors in this spectrum, so a blue poodle can be very dark almost black, or it can be almost as light as a silver. Blues and silvers tend to be lighter on their face and the lower parts of their legs. There are some good pictures at my web site: Small Standard Poodles The silver champion on the home page is Sting -- he is Sam's father and also Kindle's father. Notice that his face and the pompoms on his legs are lighter. Kindle is his daughter and she is a good example of a dark blue poodle. Click on the Kindle x Joseph 2015 link and you will see that she looks almost black, but next to her puppies (who are black in the photos but may clear to blue), she looks dark gray.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Mehpenn said:


> On a different note: BLUE vs SILVER? Blue is a muted/diluted black? Silver is... Silver? How do you definitively tell the difference between blue and silver? Is blue a consistent color throughout the coat, while silver dogs may have darker ears/lighter legs/etc?


Blue and silver are both faded black pigment. The exact genetics or even the mode of inheritance is uncertain, although we know for certain that the silver factor is recessive because two silvers will only produce silver, not blue or black. (Barring recessive epistatic factors such as ee (apricot) and white, whose exact mode of inheritance and genetic buildup is also unknown.)

Blue and silver clear in the same way, gradually from face and feet up, but it's not as obvious with blues since they are so much darker. Some definite differences are:
- silvers are lighter, ranging from a bright platinum to a steel grey
- blues are much darker, coming in the colours of dark stormclouds

- silvers clear much faster and look way more dramatic, almost phantom, during the change due to the high contrast between the original black and the new silver growth -- even if they take a couple of years to reach their final shade they will be unmistakable from puppyhood
- blues look black for a long time, especially in photos with darker blues it's easy to mistake their ever so slightly lighter face for an underpigmented black or a badly lighted photo (photos of blues look much like a harsh flash was used to snap a shot of a black)

- silvers have tell-tale white/platinum hair between their footpads from birth, and will have an obvious silver face when shaved at five-six weeks, even if their face isn't shaved the silver will peek through and in a few more weeks will be impossible to ignore
- telling blue from black in puppy age is pretty much guesswork unless one can compare the suspected blue with a true black of the same age -- however I hear that they too have very light hairs at the pads at birth

In conclusion, a silver is very easy to distinguish from any other Poodle colour except with a blue pup right at birth, but it's hard to say if a young Poodle that doesn't quite reach an inky blackness is a blue or a less-than-ideal-but-still-black black.

See POODLE COAT COLORS: BLUE & BLACK for great photos and more information.


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

*Posted with the permission of the current owner, whom I am purchasing the puppy from*

She is currently nine weeks old. The only color change noted is a brownish tint on the inside of her back legs. She is out of a silver dam and an apricot sire.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

It may just be me, but I'm noticing something of a dark blue ring around her muzzle. That specific "oh it must be a trick of the light" type of shade. Certainly not a silver but I won't eat my hat if she turns out a blue. If you can do it, it would be super interesting to see a series of portraits of her with two-three weeks in between until roughly around her sexual maturity. Since we're talking about very minute changes of dark coat, the portrait would have to be taken with the same camera in the same place with the same lightning every time, i.e. in a room with minimal natural light.


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

I can do that this picture was taken yesterday, along with these. Now that I look closer, she does seem to have a lighter tint on her face?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mehpenn said:


> I can do that this picture was taken yesterday, along with these. Now that I look closer, she does seem to have a lighter tint on her face?



Absolutely lighter on the face!


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

So, blue? Maybe? 

Another question, you guys said silvers have white hair between their toes? Blues don't? Right?


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

So, would you guys consider Sadie s blue or silver? She was born solid black. Faded to this color by the time she was three and has stayed the same. Her legs are lighter, her ears and body are about the same. Blue?


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Mehpenn said:


> *Posted with the permission of the current owner, whom I am purchasing the puppy from*
> 
> She is currently nine weeks old. The only color change noted is a brownish tint on the inside of her back legs. She is out of a silver dam and an apricot sire.


She's GORGEOUS!!


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks! I'm super excited. My kids don't know about her yet. They will be so happy! 
Hoping to train her in obedience and rally and to be a therapy dog.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mehpenn said:


> So, blue? Maybe?
> 
> Another question, you guys said silvers have white hair between their toes? Blues don't? Right?



Yes, I think light blue/dark silver, if that photo is accurate.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mehpenn said:


> So, would you guys consider Sadie s blue or silver? She was born solid black. Faded to this color by the time she was three and has stayed the same. Her legs are lighter, her ears and body are about the same. Blue?



I think she is silver. But I really think that silver and blue are just shades of the same color, so I would not argue with someone who called her blue. Teaka took until probably 8-9 years old before she was the same shade of silver everywhere, and I suspect that that may just be old age graying, but I don't care, it looks great!


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Mehpenn said:


> Thanks! I'm super excited. My kids don't know about her yet. They will be so happy!
> Hoping to train her in obedience and rally and to be a therapy dog.


Oh man, that IS exciting!! I love surprises! So if she's 9 weeks now, that means you have another, what, 2 weeks before you bring her home? Does she have a name yet?


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

We pick her up Sept 12/13. 

We are going to call her Tilly. :blush:


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## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

Breeding a silver to a red or apricot is generally not recommended. Both colors have the fading gene so the color would fade even more and you probably will lose the desired pigment on the points.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

loves said:


> Breeding a silver to a red or apricot is generally not recommended. Both colors have the fading gene so the color would fade even more and you probably will lose the desired pigment on the points.



What, now you are saying that apricots do carry fading genes?! Which is it? I want to know what is going to happen to blackricot Timi! To fade or not to fade, that is the question!


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Apricot to silver does not reliably produce apricot nor silver puppies. Since the function of the silver factor is not known, there could be a risk of apricots fading to cream. And because apricots don't have any eumelanin for the Agouti series to play with, they can carry any of the brindle, sable, phantom patterns, or even all of them without anyone being a bit wiser.

So potentially, worst case hypothetical scenario, silver to apricot breeding would give:
- no apricots whatsoever, or only apricots that take a couple of years to clear to cream
- no solid silvers whatsoever, only silver phantoms/brindles/sables with eventually cream phaeomelanin.

On the bright side, for anyone who wants a litter of puppies that can be profited from as "exceedingly rare half-albino silver-and-ivory Guaranteed Allergy Friendly French Moyen Poodles"...............................................


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

loves said:


> Breeding a silver to a red or apricot is generally not recommended. Both colors have the fading gene so the color would fade even more and you probably will lose the desired pigment on the points.


Interesting comment. I'd be interested to know why you think that a red or apricot should not be bred to a silver. My understanding is that the fading gene that makes a black puppy clear to silver has effect on reds and apricots. But I could be wrong. Please let me know if you have any evidence that this is not the case. Also, I believe that losing the pigment on the points in a red or apricot poodle is caused by introducing the brown gene, not by breeding to a silver. The following page says "If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a Brown nose Your dog is genotypes bbee." ('b' is the recessive gene for brown).

VetGen Colour Test - Poodles in Scandinavia


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

peccan said:


> Apricot to silver does not reliably produce apricot nor silver puppies. Since the function of the silver factor is not known, there could be a risk of apricots fading to cream. And because apricots don't have any eumelanin for the Agouti series to play with, they can carry any of the brindle, sable, phantom patterns, or even all of them without anyone being a bit wiser.
> 
> So potentially, worst case hypothetical scenario, silver to apricot breeding would give:
> - no apricots whatsoever, or only apricots that take a couple of years to clear to cream
> ...


But is there any evidence at all that the gene that causes blacks to become silver also causes apricots to fade?

Also, a breeder who knows the lines of their apricots should know if there are any phantoms, brindles or sables in the lines, especially if there are blacks, blues or silvers behind the apricot. I know that the parti factor is recessive (so even a black dog could be a carrier), but I don't think that breeding a silver to an apricot is as much of a crap shoot as you suggest.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

peppersb said:


> But is there any evidence at all that the gene that causes blacks to become silver also causes apricots to fade?
> 
> Also, a breeder who knows the lines of their apricots should know if there are any phantoms, brindles or sables in the lines, especially if there are blacks, blues or silvers behind the apricot. I know that the parti factor is recessive (so even a black dog could be a carrier), but I don't think that breeding a silver to an apricot is as much of a crap shoot as you suggest.


1) no, and that's why I included the word hypothetical, and worst case scenario. Best case scenario: all puppies are healthy and lovely, get good homes, and are never bred.

2) yet any apricot in the lines unless their own pedigree can be traced to an all black/silver/blue/brown background, could be a carrier and contribute to a long line of apricot carriers who never produced non-solid puppies due to the genetics of their partner or out of sheer luck

and for an apricot of sufficient quality, even known carriership of something like phantom could be overlooked, given that pigment and other issues would not require black/etc infusions in near future so it's not like every apricot in the previous generations throwing mismarks from black/silver/blue/brown breedings would have been removed from that breeding program


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## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

Every color but black is a fading color in poodles.

COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES


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