# Pros and Cons of Hot-Button Topics



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

There are certain topics that come up on the forum from time to time that always prompt negative replies. The original poster is usually dismayed about the negative posts when they were just commenting about how well this particular item was working with their dogs. People posting negative comments want the poster to be aware of potential harm it might cause. Sometimes the thread gets so heated that people start name calling.

I thought it would be nice to lists hot-button topics in a thread and to list *BOTH *potential positive and negatives aspects of those topics. As has been said before on this forum, it is often a risk-reward assessment that determines if a poster likes this item or thinks it is the worse idea ever. 

_*But I would ask that anyone posting on this thread list at least ONE positive, and more if you can, before they list the negatives.*_

Here are a few hot-button topics with both positive and negative attributes that I can see. Feel free to add to this list or start your own list of hot-button topics with pros and cons.

*** DOGGIE DOORS*
--Pros:
1. Allows dogs to go outside when they need to. 
2. Great for those dogs that do not verbalize or scratch the door when they need to go outside.
3. Great for letting dogs go outside when you are away from home.
4. Lets owners do stuff inside the house away from back door while still allowing dogs to go potty outside.
--Cons:
1. Dogs are often outside without the owner and might be attacked by large birds. Doggie doors may not be safe for small dogs to use for this reason.
2. Intruders might try to use the doggie door to get inside the house. 
3. Wild animals might try to come inside through the doggie door. (If you get a doggie door that can be locked, the possibility of animals coming inside is small, especially if you close the doggie door at night.)

*** FLEXIBLE LEASHES*
--Pros:
1. Allows a person who cannot deal with long leashes to walk their dog more easily.
2. It can be locked into a short leash length or extended to allow your dog to go into the grass to potty. So it is very versatile.
--Cons:
1. Unless a safety loop is used, the handle could be torn out of the owner’s hands and the dog will be running free.
2. Unless used carefully, the long cord can wrap around a part of the dog or part of the owner’s legs and cause injury.
3. If used by fools, it allows their dogs to get too close to your dogs, which could turn out ok or not ok.

*** DOG PARKS*
--Pros:
1. A place where dogs can meet other dogs and get a good run.
2. Great place for exercise for a large dog living in a small apartment.
3. More exercise than just walking.
--Cons:
1. Since anyone can bring their dog there, your dog might be hurt by other dogs that should not be in a dog park.
2. Dogs can pick up diseases like dog flu in a dog park.

*** INVISIBLE FENCES*
--Pros:
1. Can provide some safety for your dog without impeding your view with a physical fence.
2. Can be used in yards where a physical fence is not allowed.
3. Can be used in a front yard next to the street where you do not ordinarily install a fence and offers protection to your dog in case he bolts out the door. Especially useful if you have children.
--Cons:
1. Other animals can come into the yard and attack your dog before you can intervene.
2. Your dog might run through the invisible fence and be afraid to come back into the yard.
3. It can give the owners a false sense of security.
4. A dog in the front yard inside an invisible fence can be scary to other people walking their dogs who only see a dog loose in the front yard. Even if they think there might be an invisible fence, they worry that the dog may attack their dog anyway.

Now people, be nice. No name calling.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Well, I'm out because I can't say at least one nice thing about more than one of these.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

You do not need to comment about all the topics I listed. You can just talk about the item you can think about one positive thing.

You can list different hot-button topics that you can think of one positive aspect.

I personally would not use an invisible fence, but I can see some positive features to it. I would just rate the risks more than the rewards for my situation. So you do not have to want to use the item to see potential positives.

I do not know if anyone is interested in viewing these topics objectively by listing both positive and negative potentials. If not, fine. I just wanted to point out there are 2 sides to these issues. Just because I can see both sides does not mean that I want to use each item or do that action.

I just thought of another one:

*** LETTING DOGS GO HIKING OFF LEASH*
-- Pros
1. Allows them to get exercise and see interesting aspects of nature.
2. An activity that is enjoyable for both dogs and their human companions.
3. Is usually safer than bringing them to a dog park where there might be dangerous dogs.
-- Cons
1. Because it is nature, there might be harmful plants that your dog might eat.
2. With your dogs off leash, they might encounter a dangerous animal and get hurt.
3. With your dogs off leash, they could fall down a ledge or into a stream and get hurt or killed.
4. There is still a potential of picking up diseases like Lepto from the urine of wild animals.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

This looks like another thinly veiled excuse for Drama. I'm seeing a few of them lately.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

No thin veil here. No troll. No drama. No popcorn needed.

Countryboy, maybe my idea for this thread is a bad idea, but I assure you that I was NOT trying to stir up drama, just trying to show the 2 sides of some controversial issues. Sounds like nobody wants to view these topics objectively. So this thread will die and you won't be bothered.


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## Dancer920 (May 16, 2016)

Don't have any Pros to add but I do like the Pros and Cons list. If nothing else, hopefully it makes people think about decisions we make for our furry companions every day. Sometimes we get so stuck in our feelings on the Pros or the Cons side that we forget, that there is a whole other point of view.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Great post. I definitely experienced that with a flexi leash thread. Naira is a country dog, and I use it when we walk on trails in Northern Virginia. Works for us. 

Everyone's situation is different and what may not work for you may work for someone else.  I definitely see how it could be hazardous for city dogs!


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I appreciate the attempt to tone down the judgment and snark on the forum.


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

Personally, I like your post Minipoo. There are always two sides to every story. Controversial topics can be a lot of fun and even though I have my opinions I really like to see the other side of things too-sometimes it can help open my eyes to other possibilities. 

I have been to a lot of dog forums and seen a lot of caddy, passive aggressive and nasty behavior but this forum has been my favorite because I haven't seen it here like I have other places. I really feel like the folks here are pretty level headed. 

I don't have both pros and cons to share for the particular items listed but I like your list. I also don't have too much to add to the list myself.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I think it's just hard to think of a controversial topic to post about when they don't come up organically, or at least it is for me. 

I do think it's a good idea to always consider the possible pros and cons of things. People don't make decisions you disagree with just in order to be stupid; they do it because they think it's a good decision to make.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

I think this could be good if maybe we can eventually have it made into a sticky or permanent post or whatever it's called, and people can refer back to this post instead of making new posts about the subjects and causing more drama. Kind of like the puppy buying thread.


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

Miss you Naira


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## Coco86 (Oct 23, 2014)

Great post! My niece's future in-laws have an invisible fence for their dogs. It works well for them, but we use chain link fence for our yard. 

Our backyard is large for our subdivision, and is fully fenced. We are also very lucky to live in a subdivision where the front yard can also be fenced! Our front yard is fenced in with chain link, so our four poodles can safely go in either the front or back yard. Only our driveway isn't fenced, so gates are to stay closed at all times. 

Wow that's a lot of use of the word fence in one paragraph haha! Better make it two...


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

*Pros & Cons of Shock Collars*

Again, not trying to be dramatic here with this controversial subject. I do have a pro and con list, but it is very short since I have no personal experience with shock collars. I only know what I have read from various sources.

*** SHOCK COLLARS*
-- Pros
1. In the hands of a very very experienced pro, these collars can be used to teach a dog to fear something dangerous to them (see pro story below).
2. I am open to the idea that a professional who is mostly positive in their training might use a shock collar with a dog that is doing something so bad that if the dog does not stop doing it, they might be put to sleep. I have no example of this, just listing it as a possible pro.
-- Cons
1. Most pet owners do not have the knowledge to appropriately use a shock collar, in my opinion, and could cause their dog to be afraid of something that was not the intended target. (see con story below)
2. Some trainers may not be positive based and could use shock collars in pet training that causes more problems than they solve. So we need to be careful who we chose to train our dogs.

*Con Story*
Just today I was wishing I could use a shock collar on my dog Neeka, or as I call her Little Miss Bark-a-lot. We have a corner lot and somehow Neeka can see through a 6 foot privacy fence and knows when someone is walking their dog on the sidewalks in front and beside our house. She will go to one end of the backyard and just bark and bark. She will not come when called. I start over to physically take her into the house and she runs past me to the other side of the yard (where the dog walker probably is now) and she jumps and barks there. I think sometimes how it would be convenient if I could shock her when she does this, but I am not seriously considering it. With my luck, I would cause her to become afraid of the backyard in general. So I do not use the shock collar, but I just think about it sometimes. This is my example of how using a shock collar would be a bad thing.

*Pro Story*
I recently read a book about a woman training her golden retriever to be a Search and Rescue (SAR) dog. They would sometimes search in wooded areas where there were poisonous snakes. To keep the dog safe, the dog had to learn not to approach a poisonous snake in any fashion. So they leash the dog and show it the poisonous snake and shock the dog. They do this 6 times to make sure the dog associates the shock with the snake and they get the appropriate backing away response when the snake is shown. They call this process "Proofing the dog." This process could save the dog's life. So it seems like an appropriate use of the shock collar and it is done by professionals as part of a training program.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

MiniPoo I like the idea of this thread as a repository for the pros and cons of things we won't all agree on.

Here is another topic: *Collars of various types

*Pros for flat buckle collar
1. You can get pretty ones with matching leashes. Therefore they don't look like aversives.
Pros for unlimited slip collars (aka choke chains)
1. Sorry I have to break the rule since I see no good use for them.
Pros for pinch collars
1. They work like a martingale collar and if you know how to use it (i.e. let the dog wear it for a while before hooking it to the leash and never pull on it yourself) and if you size it correctly (right size links and fitted fairly close to stay up behind ears) they help a dog to teach itself not to forge or lag in heeling and let the dog learn that nothing good comes of lunging around trying to get to that __________ (fill in your choice: other dog, nasty cat, kid on a bike, car.......)

Cons for flat buckle collar
1. Many dogs never understand that they are not pulling a sled and forge against the collar until they potentially hurt themselves even though it is pretty.
Cons for unlimited slip collars
1. Many people put them on backwards so the pressure never releases and the dog ends up hurt. Many people use the wrong size chain (too long).
2. People pop the leash so hard that the dog hurts itself when the collar tightens while they were already pulling.
3. Really stupid people really choke/hang the dog to the point of causing ischemic brain damage or worse.
4. I could go on forever...

Cons for pinch collar
1. People don't know how to use them properly and are unfair to the dog as a consequence. A pinch collar should be a way to fine tune and proof things that the dog understands, not to teach basic behavior.
2. People don't fit them properly and end up hurting the dog because they aren't using them properly as a consequence.

BTW MiniPoo some of the Garmin e-collars have a bark limiter feature that uses a vibration when the dog barks. If they keep barking the vibration get stronger. Set to use the bark limiting feature the collar will also tell you by how it flashes when you take it off how many times the dog has barked so you have a way to measure progress.

And on a final note, Ian Dunbar even advocates for shock e-collars if the dog's life is at stake. His example is for dogs that have killed livestock.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

The best use for shock collars that I've seen is for hunting dogs and other dogs who work at a long distance from their handlers. There was a woman on another dog forum I used to frequent who used them especially for long distance/out of sight emergency recall for her hunting labs. She could also remotely up the shock if she really needed to deter them from something dangerous and unexpected, again while she was too far away to restrain them physically. She turned to them after one of her dogs chased a deer out of sight and got hit by a car (the prey drive overcame her very carefully trained and proofed recall). Hunting dogs have to be interested in chasing prey, but for their own safety they sometimes need to let it go too.

There are also ecollars that come with vibrations and tones, which can have a variety of uses. For example, I've heard of people using the vibration setting to train recall in deaf dogs, and the tones can be used for long-range commands.

I also do know one person who's using a shock collar, under careful supervision of an experienced trainer, to help his very reactive dog learn not to react to triggers. Personally that usage makes me uncomfortable, but it does seem to be working very well and the dog doesn't seem to have any negative fallout from it.

My biggest con with shock collars is that they're too available to people who don't know how to use them properly, and those people end up hurting their dogs unnecessarily.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Here's a few pros and cons on things already posted:

Cons for Hiking off-leash:
- if your dog spots a bear or cougar, runs toward it to protect you and gets hurt or comes running back with the predator in hot pursuit
- if your dog runs after a bear or cougar, gets lost, and has to find its own way home

Pro for Hiking off-leash: 
- dogs just looooove the freedom and fun of running around off-leash in the forest and come home sooo happy with their tongues lolling out the side of their mouths
- it's good exercise and good for mom's mental health too
- you see some lovely scenery

Cons for invisible fence:
- people can see your dog outside and possibly steal him/her
- poodles are smart and can learn that a little shock is a small price to pay for running around free in the neighbourhood


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## Elaine_R (Nov 20, 2015)

I'd like to add my experience with choke collars to lily's post, as there are no pros listed.

We use a choke collar with our very energetic, young border collie. I am not very strong, so when he was learning to use a leash it was important that he didn't pull too hard and tear it out of my hands (he did not have good a good recall at the time and we were worried he would run after another dog or into the street). The choke collar helped him self regulate the tugging and now he walks next to me with the leash slack. He is very comfortable in it, and he gets excited when we pull it out because he knows it means walking time. We never pull it too tightly, just a gentle reminder if he gets too excited, and never when he is already pulling hard enough to activate it.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

shell said:


> Personally, I like your post Minipoo. There are always two sides to every story. Controversial topics can be a lot of fun and even though I have my opinions I really like to see the other side of things too-sometimes it can help open my eyes to other possibilities.
> 
> I have been to a lot of dog forums and seen a lot of caddy, passive aggressive and nasty behavior but this forum has been my favorite because I haven't seen it here like I have other places. I really feel like the folks here are pretty level headed.
> 
> I don't have both pros and cons to share for the particular items listed but I like your list. I also don't have too much to add to the list myself.


You definitely HAVE NOT SEEN ME ON A LOT OF DOG FORUMS, this is the only forum I am on period!!!!!!!!! You apparently have a problem with me, why I'm not sure, but your remark was hurtful, passive aggressive and nasty.
I was surprised to see Molly, TP and Trixie liked it.
WOW SHELL


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## Elaine_R (Nov 20, 2015)

Caddy, I think that was meant to say catty. I don't think shell meant you as a user.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

HEAVENS NO CADDY!!!!! SHE MEANT 'CATTY" a typo I'm very sure!!!!!!! YOU KNOW you are really liked here !!!!


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

:hug::hug::hug:Caddy! It really was a typo. We want you here.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Caddy said:


> You definitely HAVE NOT SEEN ME ON A LOT OF DOG FORUMS, this is the only forum I am on period!!!!!!!!! You apparently have a problem with me, why I'm not sure, but your remark was hurtful, passive aggressive and nasty.
> I was surprised to see Molly, TP and Trixie liked it.
> WOW SHELL



Caddy, that was a typo! You are a well liked and well respected member here, and I can speak for Shell, and everyone else, that Shell wasn't talking about you. She meant catty. Please believe me, I don't ever press like for posts where people are making nasty comments about someone. In fact, I defend people who are being attacked by others.

So please know, it really was a typo. ❤


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I have one so hot that I just can't, I think 99 percent of you would not understand. 
All I will say is that nobody else lives your life, don't worry about other's approval, do what you know is best for you dog and your family, and it will work out just fine. I am totally comfortable that something that 99 percent of you would judge me unkindly for was the absolute the right thing that made my dog's and my life infinitely better!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yeah I think that was meant to be catty also!

And since my lack of pros for choke collars was responded to by someone who used one for a dog, I would say that the same result would have been achieved with a properly used pinch collar and the handler would never have had to pull, the dog would have taught itself that pulling on leash was counterproductive. There would have been no concern about the timing of the information. I am glad the choke collar worked for the dog in question, but I still think there are no positives in using them and that other choices are safer.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I had a choke collar on that darn Silkie I had, and came home from work and he had gotten it caught on one of his bottom teeth (that was before I dislike him). I could not get it off, called my friend and he had to cut the chain off. Would never use a choke again, I do not know how long he was caught


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

MiniPoo said:


> Countryboy, maybe my idea for this thread is a bad idea, but I assure you that I was NOT trying to stir up drama, just trying to show the 2 sides of some controversial issues


You assume that everyone will be rational, logical, and polite. Not always a safe assumption in a forum. As you can see...


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I know that I cannot tell people how to post on this thread, that it is not in my control. But the idea of this thread was to always offer one positive when you offer a negative. *If our posts are only positive or only negative than this thread is going to produce the same drama that Countryboy warned of at the beginning.*

One way to avoid the drama in this thread is if someone posts a positive or a negative, then it would be nice to not post something trying to contradict their opinion. We are not going to agree on these topics.

This thread was basically supposed to be a list of pros and cons, not a place to argue that your pro or con is better than someone elses.

That being said, if you guys want to just contradict each other and possibly start agruments, have at it. But then that means Countryboy was right and I was wrong that we can discuss these topics without arguing.


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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

I like the concept of this thread. I often feel like I haven't thought of everything before I make an important purchase so I like reading your pros and cons and weighing out the options myself. 

I don't judge people for their choices and don't expect others to judge me. So in theory this is an excellent post as long as no one takes others opinions personally. Everyone is not the same, nor is every dog or every circumstance. That's why we have so many options. 

I just want to thank you all for sharing your experience so freely!


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I do so hope you ladies are right, I thought OMG what did I do.
I thought we just had a very good exchange of opinions and experiences on the dog park thread.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

*Choke collars & martingale collars*

*** CHOKE COLLARS*









*--PROS*
1. It can be used to give the dog a quick correction and teach a dog not to pull when walking.
2. Some people use a choke collar and leash along with a regular collar and leash and had good success. Then the choke collar is used only for quick corrections, but the dog is walked mainly with the regular collar.
*--CONS*
1. Using a choke collar correctly requires instruction on the correct way to affix it and how to give quick corrections. Many people do not receive that instruction and can damage the neck of the dogs.
2. It should not be used with aggressive pullers or with small dogs with fragile necks, or it can injure them. If your dog is an aggressive puller or a small dog, there are other collars that would be better.
3. It should never be kept on the dog except when walking or it can cause injury.

*** MARTINGALE COLLARS (also known as Greyhound Collars)*









*--PROS*
1. It is sometimes called the humane choke collar. It is easy to put on and only tightens around the dog's neck when he pulls. It loosens when he stops pulling.
2. Because it tightens around his neck when he pulls, it is very difficult for a dog to slip out of this type of collar.
*--CONS*
1. A Martingale collar should not be left on the dog all the time. Without a leash, the front loop of the collar can hang down and catch on something in the house. So it is not safe to leave this type of collar on the dog when not walking.
2. The Martingale collar was not meant for dog tags. If dog tags are attached to the front ring it adds to the weight of the loop and makes it even more dangerous to keep the collar on the dog when not walking it. 
3. Martingales may not be the best collar for aggressive pullers because the collar would remain tight too long. Other collars would be better for aggressive pullers.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

MiniPoo thanks for adding the additional info on unlimited slip chains and martingales. I did break your rule by not saying anything positive about choke chains.

I think when we talk about tools of all kinds generally one of the things that we need to keep in mind is their proper use. All too often we see sad stories related to improper use of resources (collars, leashes, ID tags on dogs in crates, big dogs on the small dog side of a dog park, etc.). I do think that proper use of all tools is important.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Interesting thread for sure, although truth be told, I have not been reading every post. Plus, up until this point, I just have not been interested in participating in any pros and cons. However, the only thing I did want to share is, I used to buy collars for all of my dogs, but after one of my dogs started choking and gasping for air while out for walks, from pulling so hard, I knew I needed to try something else. Harnesses always worked best for my dogs. Easy enough to put on, yet also secure, the dog can feel comfortable while out for walks, no pulling, and there was no choking on their part. Plus, there was still a place on the harness where they could wear an ID tag. Then returning home, harness comes off. IMO, so much better than collars.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I've found that type doesn't matter so much as placement when it comes to collars and pulling. A collar that contacts their chest is not much use... they simply go into sled-dog mode.... and pull!

Take that same collar... martingale, choke or buckle... and set it just underneath their ears, and the pulling stops immediately.

The trick is getting the collar to stay high and not slide down the neck. Maybe I could twist-tie it to his ears???


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Countryboy said:


> I've found that *type doesn't matter so much as placement when it comes to collars and pulling*. A collar that contacts their chest is not much use... they simply go into sled-dog mode.... and pull!
> 
> Take that same collar... martingale, choke or buckle... and set it just underneath their ears, and the pulling stops immediately.
> 
> The trick is getting the collar to stay high and not slide down the neck. Maybe I could twist-tie it to his ears???


That is part of what I was thinking about with respect to proper use of tools. For any collar to work well it does have to be properly fitted and most people have collars that are too loose on their dogs and the collar is down at the lower part of the neck.

I had someone come to take a class with me who had an unlimited slip chain on her setter. It was about twice as long as it should have been and was heavier gauge than needed for the dog. I commented on it and she told me she had gotten it since it was the only one she could fit over the dog's head. I recommended a toggle closure collar (link for picture below) to her if she was going to continue using a chain. With a chain that is too long and heavy you end up having the information get to the dog too late for the dog to understand why it is getting the correction.

http://www.jefferspet.com/product_i...396143d535a8f6964000160/zoom.jpg?c=1402344511


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

TrixieTreasure said:


> Interesting thread for sure, although truth be told, I have not been reading every post. Plus, up until this point, I just have not been interested in participating in any pros and cons. However, the only thing I did want to share is, I used to buy collars for all of my dogs, but after one of my dogs started choking and gasping for air while out for walks, from pulling so hard, I knew I needed to try something else. Harnesses always worked best for my dogs. Easy enough to put on, yet also secure, the dog can feel comfortable while out for walks, no pulling, and there was no choking on their part. Plus, there was still a place on the harness where they could wear an ID tag. Then returning home, harness comes off. IMO, so much better than collars.


TT, you are comparing different types of collars then dismissing all for harnesses. And then you gave us Pros for harnesses. 

We know the pros that you have mentioned. Do you see any cons for harnesses? We are trying to lists pros and cons of a single item.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

While we're talking about walking tools, I figured I'd toss something in about harnesses:

*Back-Clip (standard) Harnesses*
Pros: 
1. Keeps pressure off the neck area, which can be important for very small dogs or others with potential tracheal issues
2. Can get harnesses that allow dogs to carry weights, water, or other walking supplies, which helps tire a dog out faster
3. Some harnesses have handles that are helpful for walking in areas that are rocky or have uneven ground
Cons:
1. Can encourage pulling (sled dog effect)
2. If fitted improperly, can still put pressure on the neck or rub on other areas like under the armpits
3. Creates matting problems in dogs with long, tangly hair

*Front-clip Harnesses*
Pros:
1. Discourages pulling and jumping by putting pressure on the front end of the dog
2. Avoids any pressure on the neck
3. Usually more minimal than back-clip harnesses, leading to fewer issues with rubbing or matting
Cons:
1. Can mess with a dog's gait, as it tends to hang down across the front legs/chest (mostly noticed in performance dogs)
2. Prevents pulling but doesn't train it - the dog may return to pulling if walked on a collar or other type of harness
3. Fairly easy for a determined dog to slip out of, especially if they pull backwards

*Head Harness/Halti*
Pros:
1. Gives excellent control over the dog, making it a good tool for working with pulling as well as reactivity
2. When fit properly, fewer issues with rubbing/pinching than other harnesses
3. May double as a muzzle
4. Allows for more gentle aversive methods than corrective collars
Cons:
1. Can take a lot of conditioning for a dog to accept wearing one - most hate it initially
2. Risk of injury if used improperly - if the dog OR the human pulls wrong, could do damage to the neck
3. Muzzle-like appearance may affect public perception of your dog (ie, the dog looks dangerous or fierce)


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Thanks, Lisagirl. Since I am so bad in teaching heeling, I have been trying different types of harnesses, especially no pull. You have stated a lot of things I have been finding out by experience. Thanks for summarizing it so well.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

MiniPoo said:


> Thanks, Lisagirl. Since I am so bad in teaching heeling, I have been trying different types of harnesses, especially no pull. You have stated a lot of things I have been finding out by experience. Thanks for summarizing it so well.


I've learned a lot through Archie's persistent pulling problem, as well!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> TT, you are comparing different types of collars then dismissing all for harnesses. And then you gave us Pros for harnesses.
> 
> We know the pros that you have mentioned. Do you see any cons for harnesses? We are trying to lists pros and cons of a single item.



I will give you a con - your dog slips their shoulder out, backs out of the whole thing and gets hit by a car.
RIP Tika, sorry that I did not see that coming.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

MiniPoo, not a pro and con per say but a comment about teaching heeling. Focused attention is the key. Teach Dakota to look at you and hold eye contact. Use a flat buckle collar and take a step or two (or more) as long as he maintains the eye contact. When he looks away say oopsie and get him back to attentive looking then repeat steps forward as above. At first you may only take one or two steps but gradually you will go further. If you have good heeling that way you will have day to day loose leash walking.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Catherine, sorry to say that your good advice about heeling is wasted on me. I do not have the patience to teach heeling as you suggest. I understand that now and will not even try it. Sorry if that frustrates you. My only recourse is to prevent Dakota from having the opportunity to pull by using a head harness or no pull harness. He is actually getting better in recent months.

Since I have given up on getting a CGC for Dakota, my husband just signed up for a beginning dog class with him. He has more patience than I and may be more successful with teaching Dakota to heel and go on to get his CGC. Since Dakota obeys me better than he does my husband, I think their taking a class together is a good thing.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

No frustration or other negative feelings as long as you enjoy your time with Dakota and he enjoys his with you. What I expect from our dogs is a far cry from what many people expect. With three big dogs, though there has to be someone (other than one of them) in charge though.

I guess in some way training is like experimentation to me and since I don't run a research lab working on ever improving what my crew does is a decent substitute.


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

Caddy - when I saw Shell's post, I realized it was a typo. Hugs your way!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I will give you a con - your dog slips their shoulder out, backs out of the whole thing and gets hit by a car.
> RIP Tika, sorry that I did not see that coming.


That is indeed a good con for a harness. Some harnesses are easier for a dog to back out of than others, but it is certainly something to keep in mind as a serious "con" for harnesses.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

When I used to walk shelter dogs, we always had to attach harnesses to the dog's collar with a carabiner, just in case they slipped the harness.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

lily cd re said:


> That is part of what I was thinking about with respect to proper use of tools. For any collar to work well it does have to be properly fitted and most people have collars that are too loose on their dogs and the collar is down at the lower part of the neck.


Ya... I still remember the lady who cheerfully told me that the pinch collar had to be loose so she could 'slip it off' over her dog's head. AAAACK! :banghead:

I've never had to use a pinch collar in my life, so have no experience with them. If it ever became necessary tho, it's a tool I would certainly consider. 

And get it fitted by Pat, the pet store owner. While I watched and learned.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lisasgirl said:


> When I used to walk shelter dogs, we always had to attach harnesses to the dog's collar with a carabiner, just in case they slipped the harness.



Yes I did that with Timi when I used to use the easy walk with her - the smallest one was too big and always slipping off her!
Or I would just use to leashes - one attached to each, holding the harness one shorter.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

The martingale are great and you can get them wide or narrow.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

MiniPoo said:


> TT, you are comparing different types of collars then dismissing all for harnesses. And then you gave us Pros for harnesses.
> 
> We know the pros that you have mentioned. Do you see any cons for harnesses? We are trying to lists pros and cons of a single item.



I don't have any cons for harnesses. I know that they worked great for Trina and Kaydee. Since I haven't had any dogs for a long time, I can't even remember the brand names. I just remember I liked the harnesses better. Sorry, that's all I know.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I will give you a con - your dog slips their shoulder out, backs out of the whole thing and gets hit by a car.
> RIP Tika, sorry that I did not see that coming.



I remember you sharing Tika's story many years ago. So very sorry TP. So heartbreaking.  :-(


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I've been waiting to add to this thread until I had time to write out my thoughts in detail.

*1. Ecollars (shock collars)*
Pros: I have one for Hans, and posted about it in another thread. It's a Garmin. It has Beep, Vibrate, Momentary Stimulation, Continuous Stimulation, and a Bark Limiter setting. I mainly got it for beep and vibrate. I use 1 beep for remote sit, 2 beeps to turn him back when he's quartering, and 3 beeps for recall. I was using whistle cues, but a) I hate the whistle and b) Hans responds much better to the beep because I think it sounds more consistent than the whistle. I leave the collar on all day and keep the remote on my person. We have a big yard (over an acre), and I love that I can call him from anywhere, even if I'm inside and he's outside. No yelling, no loud whistle, just quiet beeps. 

I think a lot of behaviors can be taught without aversives to a high level of reliability IF you can consistently control access to rewards. BUT I think correcting behaviors like chasing livestock, especially if the behavior is already established, without an ecollar would be very difficult because the behavior is so intrinsically rewarding.

I would consider using the shock function for snake aversion training (I was going to) but Hans recently had an unpleasant encounter with a black racer and is now very determined to avoid anything that might be a snake. So I may not need to.

Cons: Obviously, they can be abused, just like choke chains and pinch collars. I also think most behaviors can be taught perfectly well without them if you put the effort/thought in(I don't agree with force fetch). Also, I do get some negative reactions to Hans wearing his, even though I'm using it for the beep cues.

On the subject of pinch collars and choke chains, I like pinch collars much better, because there is far less chance of injuring the dog. I know skilled trainers can use a choke chain properly, but I see a LOT of people use them incorrectly and there is such a high chance of injury to the dog. I actually think injuries from choke chains (and possibly even flat collars) are much more common than people realize. I saw a study about it but now I can't find it. I'd much rather see a dog walk in a pinch collar without pulling than a dog choking itself in a plain flat collar.

Also, I've put a choke chain, a pinch collar, and an ecollar around my thigh and given each a good yank (or shock with the ecollar). Of the 3, the ecollar was by far the least painful, unless it was turned up to the higher levels. The pinch collar wasn't too bad and didn't leave bruises. The choke chain left a nasty bruise and really hurt. I wouldn't want it on anybody's neck. Oddly, most people seem to have a bigger negative opinion of the ecollar and the pinch collar than the choke chain.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

E-Collars, Pinch Collars... and even Choke Chains.

I remember the good ol' days in here when merely mentioning ANY of these... ummmm... items... would see you buried in an immediate PF pile-on. :deadhorse:

Ahhhh... change is good.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Until Catherine mentioned there was a vibration setting on some e collars, I did not know that function existed. I have since read that this type of collar can be used to train deaf dogs.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> Until Catherine mentioned there was a vibration setting on some e collars, I did not know that function existed. I have since read that this type of collar can be used to train deaf dogs.


Yes, I primed the vibrate button like a clicker so I beep for a cue and vibrate for a correct response. It is awesome because for Hans the biggest reward is a retrieve, so I can hit vibrate and then send him. Even if he's really far away.


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

I am not sure about this thread. There are pros and cons for everything. My puppy just the other day, slipped out of his harness, I couldn't believe it! Thank goodness we were home and I could catch him, had it happened on the road.... And because I have trained and owned and still own Shutzhund Trained dogs, from Europe, I have had cause to use the electric collar. I hate the device, but my dogs can be triggered and dangerous under certain circumstances. So, I use it for "life or death" circumstances and for extreme training, where in, once again, the life of an animals may be in jeopardy should the particular dog I am handling get out of control. That being said, I prefer a well-balanced dog, but when dogs are trained in shutzhund, sometimes, they can be triggered, based on breeding and temperament. Because of these same dogs, I have used a pinch collar. I prefer, by far, a dog that can walk on a heavy choke chain that is dangling loosely. Again this is for dogs in training that are "out of hand" a bit, or trained to a high level of shutzhund, whom may be triggered when out in public etc.

Before anybody jumps on me, I get my dogs from the World Champion in Germany and they are highly trained and I am part of that entire project. I am very sure of what I have at the end of my leash. I am also very aware of what I should and should not have. The particular young male I have, is less than ideal and he requires the electric collar when out in public for the safety of dogs that run into his space and then for himself, as I would euthanize a dog that injured another. This same dog wears a caged muzzle when out in a public community, not because he will be openly aggressive, but because while walking on a very nice heal under full control, some person with an off leash dog, will allow it to run up to mine.....that is why I have an electric collar. Not because mine needs it; he is fully trained, but because this dog doesn't like to have strange dogs run into his face.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Kassie said:


> I am not sure about this thread. There are pros and cons for everything. My puppy just the other day, slipped out of his harness, I couldn't believe it! Thank goodness we were home and I could catch him,...


This thread is about listing the pros and cons of different dog related items. Sometimes we think an item is great and may not know what problems to watch out for. Sometimes people only see the possible bad aspects of an item and do not think there is any advantage to it. By listing BOTH pros and cons of an item, we can view it more objectively and let people decide for themselves if that item would work for their dog.

If you had read some earlier posts in this thread, slipping out of harnesses is one of the most serious cons of a harness. I am glad you were able to catch your puppy.


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

MiniPoo said:


> If you had read some earlier posts in this thread, slipping out of harnesses is one of the most serious cons of a harness. I am glad you were able to catch your puppy.


I did read the earlier posts and I did catch the harness con.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

A dear dog loving friend's daughter was in town for breast cancer treatment at MD Anderson. She is a Great Dane owner, championed a few and per her mom is an amazing trainer. Buck has gotten much better about jumping on people, but it is not extinguished. This trip mom and daughter drop by, after a great report at the hospital, and the daughter has Buck under her command in a few minutes. She told me she would have suggested using an ecollar on Buck. Whatever works, she said. Lowest possible setting, of course. Buck is the poster boy for puppy jumping being rewarded by my sentimental husband. DH needed a shock collar! Still haven't ordered one...


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Hans wears a Brilliant K9 harness at work because sometimes he's tied up (right next to me) and if he did bolt for some reason I wouldn't want him to take the impact on his neck. He's never gotten out of it (not to say that it's impossible - he never tried). 

He did have one of those step-in harnesses, but it was rubbing him and it seemed to be changing the way he moved when he ran, so we got the Brilliant K9. 

I did find this article recently about how front attachment harnesses impact dogs' gaits. So I guess that's another con for at least some harnesses:
The No-Pull Debate | Whole Dog Journal


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