# Is getting a puppy a total crap shoot?



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I think that is definitely true with health, but temperament is more predictable, in my experience with my two. They behave VERY much like their parents and siblings. I think asking for references from people who have bought relatives is a good idea! And of course, Volhard temperament testing. There were NO temperament surprises with either of mine based on these things.


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## Jay D (Dec 22, 2021)

Volhard probably helps some. Also helps that our current puppy was 17 weeks when we got her. Spent an hour with her before we committed and could get a better sense of what she's like. I like the idea of an older puppy. Not always easy to find, and breeders want them out at 8 weeks.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Genetics, early experiences, environment... These are all factors. Peggy’s temperament, as far as I can tell, is different not only from her parents’, but also those of her littermates and siblings from another litter. Why?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I suspect she had early negative experiences with a toddler. And unlike her chubby littermates, she was malnourished when we brought her home, unable to digest the food on which they thrived. 

Just two of infinite variables.

What I’m learning not to do is blame myself. Sure, I made lots of mistakes with her. But I made lots of mistakes with my previous dog, too....a puppy mill dog who spent the most formative months of her life in what was basically a fish tank at a pet store.

And _she_ was easy breezy.

I think nature and nurture intertwine in mysterious ways.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Jay D said:


> Volhard probably helps some. Also helps that our current puppy was 17 weeks when we got her. Spent an hour with her before we committed and could get a better sense of what she's like. I like the idea of an older puppy. Not always easy to find, and breeders want them out at 8 weeks.


I agree. My puppy mill dog was 16 weeks when I found her on clearance. Her temperament was much more apparent than 9-week-old Peggy’s was in the hour we spent with her at her breeder’s house.

That said, by the end of our drive home, we knew some things about Peggy that have remained true to this day.

We could have returned her and continued to seek an easy keeper. But I know people whose easygoing dogs didn’t start showing neuroses or reactivity until well into adolescence. They blamed themselves, as so many tend to do. But I don’t think it’s that simple.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

This blog post I read the other day is relevant:









“It’s all in how they’re raised.”


“All puppies are blank slates.” “If you do everything right with your puppy, you’ll have a great adult dog.” “If dogs have behavioral issues, we should blame the…




paws4udogs.wordpress.com


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## Jay D (Dec 22, 2021)

Our first puppy, decades ago, was on sale in a department store pet shop. Got her on a whim. Knew nothing. Made every possible mistake. When we eventually had kids, she spent the last few years of her life hiding from them. I hope we've learned something from each successive dog, but you never know it all.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Jay D said:


> Our first puppy, decades ago, was on sale in a department store pet shop. Got her on a whim. Knew nothing. Made every possible mistake. When we eventually had kids, she spent the last few years of her life hiding from them. I hope we've learned something from each successive dog, but you never know it all.


I never “socialized” her around kids, and don’t have kids of my own, and yet my pet store dog was rock solid with children her whole life. It can make you feel like nothing means anything.  But I know that’s not true.

We saw a change in our previously _very_ dog social Peggy’s tolerance of other dogs after she was attacked a third time. I saw the same defensiveness emerge in my pet store dog after one too many horrible encounters.


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## Jay D (Dec 22, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> This blog post I read the other day is relevant:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very true. It's like putting all the blame on parents if kids do bad things.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

This thread is also relevant:









Temperament Testing - Video Examples


We talk a lot here about why it’s important to let your breeder guide your puppy selection, whether that means picking the puppy for you, narrowing down your options, or simply making a recommendation. Part of this process is temperament assessment, either through daily observation by the...




www.poodleforum.com





For anyone who’s never seen temperament testing in action, I highly recommend taking a peek.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I made lots of mistakes with my previous dog, too....a puppy mill dog who spent the most formative months of her life in what was basically a fish tank at a pet store.
> 
> And _she_ was easy breezy.
> 
> I think nature and nurture intertwine in mysterious ways.


Ironically, I wonder if the pet store environment actually helped her socialization. The environment would have been a disaster for a genetically skittish dog, but it was probably like non-stop cabaret for a dog with bolder temperament. She probably saw several dozen new people every day, including people tapping on the glass and small kids squealing and jumping to get a better view of the puppies. She must have enountered other puppies, perhaps kittens, the smell of gerbils & hamsters, and perhaps the sounds of caged birds. Probably most of her physical handling was done under strict supervision, as the pet store wouldn't have wanted her to get dropped or stepped on.


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

This is why I always find it fascinating when people purchase a puppy specifically to be an emotional support animal or therapy dog. You can't possibly know FOR SURE that a 8 week old puppy will grow up to have the temperament for that. Sure there can be testing and breeding for temperament but there are no guarantees. All but 3 of my dogs have either been rescues or from sketchy situations. All of those dogs had either health or temperament issues. 

Lucy came from a decent breeder but she was super skittish. Jeffrey is from the same dam but different sire. He is way more relaxed. He's also an unknown. He's got a great temperament but isn't all that interested in training unless there's something super high value shoved in his nose. Ethel is the best example of everything going right. She's got a pedigree and was bred with intent. She's smart as a whip and her trainer wants me to get her into therapy work. 

So yeah it really is a crap shoot. I do think that, at least with poodles, there is a good change of working through issues and previous experiences.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

cowpony said:


> Ironically, I wonder if the pet store environment actually helped her socialization. The environment would have been a disaster for a genetically skittish dog, but it was probably like non-stop cabaret for a dog with bolder temperament. She probably saw several dozen new people every day, including people tapping on the glass and small kids squealing and jumping to get a better view of the puppies. She must have enountered other puppies, perhaps kittens, the smell of gerbils & hamsters, and perhaps the sounds of caged birds. Probably most of her physical handling was done under strict supervision, as the pet store wouldn't have wanted her to get dropped or stepped on.


Yep, I’ve definitely considered this. She didn’t get any outside time, but she probably learned to feel quite safe around a wide variety of stimuli, considering she got to take it all in from a low-pressure vantage point.

Sure, kids probably tapped on the glass all day, every day. But they never actually got to touch her when they did that.

A trainer friend quietly admitted to me that some of the most well-adjusted dogs she meets are pet store dogs. Probably because they breed their “best producers” to death. And there could other dark reasons, too, of course. Do they cull the weak-nerved pups?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I just got an email about a Puppyworks webinar that’s also relevant to this discussion. The role of gut biome is something that doesn’t get enough attention:

*From Bad Beginnings, Bacterial Biomes & DNA to Bruised Brains!*

_More than ever before canine professionals are approached by clients with dogs who exhibit aggressive behavior. Within the population both have increased, the number of dogs exhibiting various degrees of aggression as well as people’s sensitivity to aggressive dog behavior. 

In this two-part webinar series, we will look at the biological and environmental causes of dog aggression from DNA through gut biomes to chronic stress. We will look at the biological mechanisms behind different management and treatment options so you better understand what might work and when. 

Environmental and learning effects are always superimposed upon genetic influences, but aggressive behavior does not occur in a biological vacuum. We will define "normal aggression" versus symptoms for maladaptive aggression responses. 









Dr. Tim Lewis, Behavior, Canine Biology, Canine Aggression, Dog Aggressionhttps://www.puppyworks.com/aggression Biology Aggression


Dr. Tim Lewis, Biology of Dog Aggression, Canine Aggression




www.puppyworks.com




_


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