# Sudden Staggering/Collapsing (Long Post)



## Tiny Poodles

Gosh that is tough!
I know that the testing has ruled it out, but it still sounds like low blood sugar/diabetes to me!
I might look to see if there is such a thing as a veterinary endocrinologist that you could take him to, but meanwhile , since there would be no harm from it, I would try dividing his food into smaller portions and feeding him every 4 hours, since the episodes often begin with the empty stomach retching thing, I would try to make sure that he is never empty...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

This does sound like diabetes or advanced thyroid issues. Good luck getting an answer. Must be awfully scary for both of you!


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## N2Mischief

Did they test him for Myasthenia Gravis?


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## outwest

It sounds like diabetes, but all those blood tests should have shown that. Good luck figuring it out. You have done way more than most people would do already!


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## N2Mischief

Clinical Signs of Myasthenia Gravis:
Clinical signs of mysathenia can be quite variable, depending on the form.
Megaesophagus: signs include regurgitation, coughing, and pneumonia. The veterinarian may discover abnormal lung sounds on physical examination. Whenever megaesophagus is diagnosed, MG should be suspected. Conversely, whenever MG is diagnosed, chest X-rays should be done to evaluate the esophagus, in case megaesophagus is present.
Generalized weakness: the owners may note weakness that is more pronounced after activity, the veterinarian may note an easily fatigued palpebral (blink) response leading to incomplete palpebral closure.
Fulminant MG: the dog presents immobile, having collapsed acutely, with difficulty breathing and swallowing.
Breeds likely to have congenital MG: Jack Russell terrier, springer spaniel, smooth-haired fox terrier.
Breeds likely to have acquired MG: medium to large breeds, particularly the German Shepherd, and Golden and Labrador Retrievers.


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## fuzzymom

Sounds like Exercise Induced Collapse:

http://www.akcchf.org/canine-health...e-information/exercised-induced-collapse.html


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## DavidT

my first reaction after reading your message was that it sounded like seizures, since we have a dog that does the collapsing and staggering etc. that you mentioned. Since that apparently has been ruled out, it is beyond my knowledge as to what it might be, but if there are specialists in your area that your own vet could recommend that might be helpful. Good luck, please keep us posted.

David


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## MollyMuiMa

Recently on another forum, a dog had the same symptoms as yours, and finally on a whim they tested the dog for EPI (exocrine pancreatic insufficiency) even though all blood was good except a high b-12 which is a clue...sometimes! He essentially was always ravenous,yet underweight, thirsty, had bouts of lethargy. It is often overlooked as it is not a common thing. The good news is that it is managable.
If you are interested, Google 'EPI In Dogs'........it might be worth a look-see! 
Hope you find answers!


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## LadyChenza

I had a papillon who had an insulinoma..an insulin producing tumor on her pancreas. This caused her blood sugar to get extremely low which resulted in 1-5 minute "attacks". She would get very weak and uncoordinated in her back legs,stagger and get a "slow motion" type of general movement. There is a lot of info online-- Sure hope you can get your pup feeling better!


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## fuzzymom

If it's only after exercise then I would look into EIC (exercise induced collapse). If it happens at other times I would investigate some of these other suggestions. Maybe try another food just to cover all your bases.


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## onionfarmer

Wow! All I can say is thanks to everybody for their posts, comments and recommendations. We really appreciate them. This is the first we've heard of Myasthenia Gravis and Exercise Induced Collapse. With all the testing and vets and doctors that we saw this summer, none of them mentioned either of these two conditions. We'll also relook at EPI. We're going to be doing some research and then be forwarding this thread to our primary vet. She's great! However, she has never seen anything like this before. 

I'm sure everybody can understand how frustrating this situation is for Jasper and us. He's a wonderful animal and friend and looked like he'd been in a car accident as he was shaved all over for testing. Jasper doesn't get better, we try every test recommended. Honestly, we are thinking the worst because the doctors try to prepare us for that outcome. And then nothing and Jasper still isn't well! The worst part is when he is feeling ill, he comes and looks to me for help and there is nothing that I can do but pick him up and hold him. 

Our dogs are all very active. We have a large area behind our house where they can run and play. So, as puppies they are introduced to running (on their own) and play (chasing balls or frizbee). Jasper has never had any issues with exercise. Our vet has always commented on how strong he was. We're now afraid to let him run. However, because he insists, we do let him play on a limited basis. This doesn't seem to be the trigger. Actually, we can't find any trigger. These spells can come on at anytime. 

Again, we appreciate everyone's posts and will update with findings as we go. Thanks - Ted.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Oh gosh. I'm so very sorry you're going through this. It is a mystery. I hope they figure out what it is and he can be treated. It sounds like you are doing everything anyone could possibly do. He is in good hands. Keep us posted.


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## onionfarmer

Here's my buddy Jasper late last year when we were out back. Thanks again for all your posts.


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## fuzzymom

I'm sure they tested for it, but it does have some symptoms of vestibular disease. My pug has it and it causes her to lose her balance and collapse at times. 


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## outwest

I still think it sounds like seizures. Not all seizures produce twitching. I can't imagine them doing an EEG on a dog, so how did they rule it out?


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## onionfarmer

*Update*

Yesterday morning in the parking lot of our groomer Jasper had another attack. Short one and he recovered in 1/2 hour. This is just unbelievably frustrating. 



outwest said:


> I still think it sounds like seizures. Not all seizures produce twitching. I can't imagine them doing an EEG on a dog, so how did they rule it out?


Regarding testing - we have spent considerable time at our local vet, local animal hospital and Cornell Companion Animal Medical Center. The testing for seizures included an MRI, some type of CT Scan and a spinal fluid test and all kinds of blood work, etc... This was rough on Jasper, he was exhausted after this round. One trip to Cornell, we spent the better part of the day with the Neurological Department. They did a full neurological workup on him including some eye tracking and eye movement tests. A comment was made that they prefer MRIs over EEG. We are not experts, so are relying on experts for help. The problem remains that all the tests came back clear! The Cornell Neurological Dept's approach was that since they can't find anything wrong with him it must be seizures and he should be treated with a relatively new seizure med. We don't want to use meds to mask a problem and then have the real problem appear and be too late to help him!

Cornell's Heart Dept, conducted thorough EKG, scans, etc.., on Jasper and couldn't find anything wrong either. They want to put a 24 hr holster tester on him. The problem is that he may go a week w/o an episode. They don't have longer duration testing equipment available now. So, we would probably just be throwing $ away on this unless we got lucky. We've had his heart tested several times and there never has been any irregularities. 

Thru all this, we're really at a loss!!! He doesn't have canine insurance and none of this is inexpensive. 

As a note, I've forwarded information from this thread to our local vet and am waiting for a reply. Thanks again to all for comments and ideas. Ted.


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## fuzzymom

I still think as a precaution to transition him over to another high quality dog food just in case it's something in his diet.


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## onionfarmer

fuzzymom said:


> I still think as a precaution to transition him over to another high quality dog food just in case it's something in his diet.
> 
> 
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What high quality dog food would you recommend? We had a bad batch of EVO a couple of years ago. Dogs got sick! At the time, we had a 18 year old dog that got really sick! That's how we ended up with Blue Buffalo. Thanks - Ted.


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## MaryEdwards

I am so sad you are having those issues. It is so heartbreaking to just not know after having all those tests. My boy did the same thing with the yellow vomit, the staggering, and afraid to take a step like he might fall. When I had to carry him in, I did the same thing, took him to the emergency vet, and after much blood work and x-rays, nothing was amiss. I wish the best for you and hope nothing comes of it, and you have had some great advice.


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## onionfarmer

MaryEdwards said:


> I am so sad you are having those issues. It is so heartbreaking to just not know after having all those tests. My boy did the same thing with the yellow vomit, the staggering, and afraid to take a step like he might fall. When I had to carry him in, I did the same thing, took him to the emergency vet, and after much blood work and x-rays, nothing was amiss. I wish the best for you and hope nothing comes of it, and you have had some great advice.


So, did you ever find out what it was? Thanks - Ted


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## KirklandPoodle

Hi Ted - I am really sorry to hear of all you are going thru with Jasper. We went thru a similar process with one of our pugs, and in the end it cost us the equivalent of a private college education. He did not have Myasthenia Gravis, but did have mega-esophagus. Also had either IBS or IBD, to the point that he would collapse in so much pain that he would collapse with a vaso-vagal (not sure I'm spelling that right) response where his body would literally shut down (die) and reboot. It happened twice, once at the beginning of his illness and the second time the night before I euthanized him, two years later. But I'm not saying that to scare you - rather for you to note that even after those tens of thousands of dollars later, we didn't have an "exact" diagnosis. 

The fact that Jasper is throwing up bile makes me question the myasthenia gravis - I thought it was supposed to be undigested food that they vomit. But my memory could be faulty.

And my second pug developed epilepsy late in her life. She too had an MRI, spinal tap, etc. Lots of times it just boils down to ruling out the obvious, and then picking the least invasive medication treatment and giving that a shot. Trying anti-seizure meds for a month might really help to determine what is going on. At this point he is having so much work done, that a little test like a blood test to ensure the meds aren't harming his liver/kidneys wouldn't be invasive. Also, if it does come to that, you can back down on the seizure meds and those organs recover quickly. Most never have those side effects. But it's certainly a better choice than untreated seizures, or if he collapses in an unsafe area.

Really thinking of you and Jasper, sending out healthy spoo thoughts. I don't at all mean to be telling you what to do, rather just offering up my experience as I've had a number of friends get hung up on getting a diagnosis, rather than trying treatment options. If only they could speak and tell us what was hurting...


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## fuzzymom

onionfarmer said:


> What high quality dog food would you recommend? We had a bad batch of EVO a couple of years ago. Dogs got sick! At the time, we had a 18 year old dog that got really sick! That's how we ended up with Blue Buffalo. Thanks - Ted.


I know issues can happen with any dog food and with the latest problem with the dog treats sickening and killing so many dogs it worries me that it might be something your dog is eating. They still haven't found what in the dog treats is causing the deaths. I know several people on here make their own food. I know that's time consuming, but I just think you should try some type of diet change if there's any chance that it could be the problem. Maybe the food is contaminated or maybe he's developed a food allergy. Maybe consult with a holistic vet if there's one in your area. 


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## onionfarmer

KirklandPoodle said:


> The fact that Jasper is throwing up bile makes me question the myasthenia gravis - I thought it was supposed to be undigested food that they vomit. But my memory could be faulty....


Sometimes Jasper throws up undigested food, sometimes nothing. Yesterday, he was fine in the morning, playing and running around. Fine in the car to the groomers. Then, after getting out of the car, he goes into slow motion. No warning, nothing! 



KirklandPoodle said:


> Really thinking of you and Jasper, sending out healthy spoo thoughts. I don't at all mean to be telling you what to do, rather just offering up my experience as I've had a number of friends get hung up on getting a diagnosis, rather than trying treatment options. If only they could speak and tell us what was hurting...


I'm not sure that Jasper knows what is going on! We can't find a trigger!


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## KirklandPoodle

Oh, here is a question I remember from those days: Is Jasper vomiting or regurgitating? Vomiting is his sides contracting to get the vomit out, and regurgitation is more of just an "urp" and up it comes, no contracting necessary to get it out.


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## onionfarmer

fuzzymom said:


> I know issues can happen with any dog food and with the latest problem with the dog treats sickening and killing so many dogs it worries me that it might be something your dog is eating. They still haven't found what in the dog treats is causing the deaths. I know several people on here make their own food. I know that's time consuming, but I just think you should try some type of diet change if there's any chance that it could be the problem. Maybe the food is contaminated or maybe he's developed a food allergy. Maybe consult with a holistic vet if there's one in your area.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't think that it is food poisoning because our other two poodles are on it and are fine. It could be a food allergy. We've actually switched foods for Jasper a couple of times and after a couple of weeks thought that we were on to it and then he had an attack.

I don't know of any holistic vets in our area. Our vet does a lot of with geriatric dogs and she is really good. I did take him to a canine nutritionist. But, that only made is coat better.


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## onionfarmer

KirklandPoodle said:


> Oh, here is a question I remember from those days: Is Jasper vomiting or regurgitating? Vomiting is his sides contracting to get the vomit out, and regurgitation is more of just an "urp" and up it comes, no contracting necessary to get it out.


Definitely vomiting.


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## fuzzymom

Well as Kirkland Poodles said, it probably wouldn't hurt to try the anti-seizure meds and see if it helps. I know you don't want to mask the problem, but they may never find the cause and if the meds work it'll mean better quality of life for your dog.


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## cliffdweller

onionfarmer said:


> I don't think that it is food poisoning because our other two poodles are on it and are fine. It could be a food allergy. We've actually switched foods for Jasper a couple of times and after a couple of weeks thought that we were on to it and then he had an attack.
> 
> I don't know of any holistic vets in our area. Our vet does a lot of with geriatric dogs and she is really good. I did take him to a canine nutritionist. But, that only made is coat better.


I would try a food change, but with specifics in mind. For example, if the food you are feeding has grain or rice (the latter being of concern for possibility of arsenic contamination), I would shift to a food that does not contain grains or rice). If chicken is the primary meat protein, shift to another meat protein. ... Perhaps you have already exhausted this tack?

Are you really an onion farmer? If you are, and you use pesticides, make sure your dog is not somehow coming into contact with these. Though you stated that you have checked for all kinds of poisoning, I suspect some types (especially those resulting from low dose, long term) can be rather subtle. Of course, onions are toxic to dogs -- I'm sure you are aware of this ...

You did not mention (or did I miss a mention) of bowel movement changes or none (?).

Best wishes to you and your pup !


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## N2Mischief

Just an interesting (to me) observation. With people with Myasthenia Gravis, some people's blood tests positive for the disease and some negative. They can in fact test negative for all aspects of the disease and still have it. Thus is the case with me. I was diagnosed because of symptoms and my huge improvement with Mestinon (medication). Yet with dogs they test for MG, and if they test negative, they give them the diagnosis of Exercise Induced Collapse. I wonder why people don't get the diagnosis of EIC, or, why dogs don't still get the diagnosis of MG if they still have all the symptoms.


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## onionfarmer

nu2poodles said:


> I would try a food change, but with specifics in mind. For example, if the food you are feeding has grain or rice (the latter being of concern for possibility of arsenic contamination), I would shift to a food that does not contain grains or rice). If chicken is the primary meat protein, shift to another meat protein. ... Perhaps you have already exhausted this tack?
> 
> Are you really an onion farmer? If you are, and you use pesticides, make sure your dog is not somehow coming into contact with these. Though you stated that you have checked for all kinds of poisoning, I suspect some types (especially those resulting from low dose, long term) can be rather subtle. Of course, onions are toxic to dogs -- I'm sure you are aware of this ...
> 
> You did not mention (or did I miss a mention) of bowel movement changes or none (?).
> 
> Best wishes to you and your pup !


I really appreciate your comments and best wishes! We tried the food switch to easy digest, went from salmon to chicken, then to lamb, then to duck, etc... We really thought that we were on to something with the switch to lamb and rice, however, he had a spell 10 days after being on the new food.

No, I'm not really an onion farmer. It was a nick name I acquired years ago. We were so worried about Jasper that we didn't weed and feed our lawn at all this year. Lawn was a mess. Oh well, we weren't taking any chances. Also, didn't do some paint work around the house because we didn't want him to have to deal with any fumes. 

His bowels have been fine as we call him Mr. Clean Colon. He's super regular, same time, same place. However, when he had the first attack in mid-June, he had the runs bad for two days. Not since.

Thanks again - Ted


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## Taz-toy

My toy poodle Taz had similar intermittent episodes you describe starting last October when he's about 1 year old. Suddenly loses his balance, head wobbling, and sick for several hours. Usually He would fall asleep for severla hours and then wake up fine. When i took him to the vet when the symptoms were happening, the vet described his state as ataxia. Over the coarse of several months he had the blood test, bile test, X-rays of the neck, brain MRI, and ear scope tomography. There was theories but nothing conclusive from the specialist. The episodes could occur in 3 days, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 5 weeks, 7 weeks, or something in between. Happened around 12 times in 6 months. I realized the trigger point was activity or excess excitement in the morning or noon, then episode occurred at noon or afternoon after the early excitement. To prove my theory I purposely have kept his excitement and activity level lower in the morning and noon time. In the afternoon and evening I then let him rip as much as he wants. He hasn't had an episode in 5 months with this routine. In my case with Taz, I'm happy to live this this way as long as the episodes have stopped. Hopefully you can figure out the trigger point and see if making a change in routine helps the situation.


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## KirklandPoodle

If it's vomiting, then I would rule out mega-esophagus entirely. And that would make the Myasthenia Gravis seem like a much smaller possibility, I'm not sure how many of his symptoms now correlate.

I learned with my epileptic pug that there are actually many, many sorts of seizures. She had been having these weird episodes for about 6 weeks, sorry, I can't remember what exactly. We did the full workup, MRI, etc to rule out tumors and encephalitis, then started seizure meds. It wasn't until several months of meds that her seizures changed, and more closely resembled the twitchy seizures that are stereotypical. Not saying that was caused by the medication, rather that I was an observant owner and noticed the episodes as the disease was still developing within her brain.


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## cliffdweller

Ted, because your dog becomes sick to his stomach in association with these episodes, I am still focusing on a possible food issue. Would you tell me the specific variety of Blue Buffalo you are feeding ? Also, you did not mention whether you tried any grain-free foods ?

I've been where you are with your dog sick and unable to determine the cause (though, thankfully, not with Rain so far), so I am sympathetic.... and you are obviously very much in love with this dog ...


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## onionfarmer

Thanks to all for your posts. My wife and I were discussing this last night and we've gotten more information/ideas from this forum then we did with all the testing this summer!



nu2poodles said:


> Ted, because your dog becomes sick to his stomach in association with these episodes, I am still focusing on a possible food issue. Would you tell me the specific variety of Blue Buffalo you are feeding ? Also, you did not mention whether you tried any grain-free foods ?...


I've been leaning towards food issues because we had tried Blue Wilderness food and he didn't act right after it. We were thinking that it had something to do with the high protein levels in that food. Here's a link to what he has been on for the last 60 days. 

BLUE Basics — Turkey dog food, a limited ingredient diet



nu2poodles said:


> I've been where you are with your dog sick and unable to determine the cause (though, thankfully, not with Rain so far), so I am sympathetic.... and you are obviously very much in love with this dog ...


I've had 8 poodles in my life, since I was a little boy. In fact, I recently had one that went almost 19 years. All of them were special! But, Jasper is a once in a lifetime kind of dog. Some people will understand this, some maybe won't. He's really easy to be around, doesn't need much supervision, happy to just be with you, always wants to please (even when sick) and super smart and lovable. You could have 10 dogs at once like him and it would be easy. Twice this summer, with all his testing, doctors came out to give us their findings. Both doctors said that they rarely comment on dogs to their owners, other than findings. One doctor was a heart specialist and other neurologic. Both described him as amazing! I'm not trying to brag on him. He is just a great friend! When they removed the wiring for the heart test equipment, he carefully backed his way out of the room w/o touching anything. The doctor said that has only happened once or twice before in his many years of doing this daily testing. He said the majority of dogs just get tangled in the wires and then start knocking over test equipment.

I look at it this way, I'm just lucky to have him! Ted


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## fuzzymom

Hi, I just thought I'd check in and see if there's any progress with Jasper's diagnoses. I hope his health has been okay. Hang in there. 


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## onionfarmer

fuzzymom said:


> Hi, I just thought I'd check in and see if there's any progress with Jasper's diagnoses. I hope his health has been okay. Hang in there.


Thanks for asking. After his last episode, everyday Jasper seemed to get stronger. After four days, he was running around the backyard and playing hard with the other boys, like he used to. Then the other day, he was outside playing with the other boys and got slow. Could barely make it up the stairs. He laid down in the house and in around 1/2 hour was back to tail wagging and acting okay. Our vet is completely at a loss, we're completely at a loss and really don't know what to do next! Ted


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## murphys

Hi, Sorry to hear your family is having this issue. Have you tried filming an episode? It might help the doctors make a diagnosis if they can see it rather then just having it described to them. If I missed where you have already mentioned filming it, my apologies. Hopefully this is figured out soon. Thinking healing thoughts.


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## cliffdweller

*A possibility?*

I cannot determine how similar (or not) this is to Jasper's symptoms, nor have I found mention of it specifically related to Poodles, but it may be worth consideration :

Canine Stress Syndrome

Malignant Hyperthermia in Dogs


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## Sweetp

This must be frustrating for sure. Does Jasper always throw up before, during or after these episodes and do these episodes mostly happen after exercise or when he's excited? I know Labradors are prone to Exercised Induced Collapse (EIC) and was wondering if this has been ruled out by Jaspers doctors?
Please keep us updated.


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## cliffdweller

Sweetp said:


> This must be frustrating for sure. Does Jasper always throw up before, during or after these episodes and do these episodes mostly happen after exercise or when he's excited? I know Labradors are prone to Exercised Induced Collapse (EIC) and was wondering if this has been ruled out by Jaspers doctors?
> Please keep us updated.


I think there are now genetic tests for both EIC and CSS (Canine Stress Syndrome).


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## Sweetp

Yes, they do, nu2, but I haven't heard of this disorder being a problem in poodles and don't know if Spoos are generally tested for it. 
Hope answers come soon.


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## cliffdweller

Yes, I looked around a bit for mention of these disorders in relation to Poodles and did not find anything. Still ... it's nagging ... :afraid:

I can say that, if it were my dog, I would make a _radical_ shift in diet, meanwhile continuing the search for other causes. I don't mean shifting from one commercial dog food to another, but shifting from commercial dog food to homemade or raw food (or a combination of these). It may not help, but it is also unlikely to hurt, so long as it is done con_scien_tiously.

The dog food mentioned by Ted above, Blue _BasicsTM Turkey and Potato Recipe_, is not high in meat content, but is loaded with peas, potatoes, and rice (ingrdients: "Deboned Turkey, Peas, Potatoes, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Turkey Meal, Flaxseed (source of Omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids ... "; remember ingredients are listed by weight, so the turkey, which is wet 'til the 5th ingredient, is not really the primary ingredient). I think the dog food companies can make anything taste like anything, and make it taste good to a dog (or a human, for that matter). It's _alot_ of vegetable fiber & starch for an animal that is basically a carnivore.


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## onionfarmer

murphys said:


> Hi, Sorry to hear your family is having this issue. Have you tried filming an episode? It might help the doctors make a diagnosis if they can see it rather then just having it described to them. If I missed where you have already mentioned filming it, my apologies. Hopefully this is figured out soon. Thinking healing thoughts.


Yes, we did end up videoing his episodes a couple of times. That's how we ended up at Cornell. Our vet took one look at the video and called the emergency room at Cornell and off we went, all five of us. We used the videos at Cornell and at the local animal hospital for the neurologic, heart and ultrasound specialists. If we hadn't had the videos, I don't think the doctors would have believed us because he was usually fine by the time we arrived for testing or emergency room visits. Appreciate the healing thoughts!



Sweetp said:


> This must be frustrating for sure. Does Jasper always throw up before, during or after these episodes and do these episodes mostly happen after exercise or when he's excited? I know Labradors are prone to Exercised Induced Collapse (EIC) and was wondering if this has been ruled out by Jaspers doctors?
> Please keep us updated.


Super frustrating!!! He threw-up this AM, but has been fine all day. The majority of times he has the episodes, he doesn't throw-up. He only threw-up bad during the first episode.

We've not been able to find any documented instances of EIC in Spoos.



nu2poodles said:


> I can say that, if it were my dog, I would make a _radical_ shift in diet, meanwhile continuing the search for other causes. I don't mean shifting from one commercial dog food to another, but shifting from commercial dog food to homemade or raw food (or a combination of these). It may not help, but it is also unlikely to hurt, so long as it is done con_scien_tiously.


We tried a diet of hamburger and rice, intermingled with pumpkin, per our vet, for a couple of months and he was still having bad episodes. Now, knock on wood, the episodes are milder, however, we don't like them at all! 
Very frustrating and really scary. He's fine right now, I can take him for a walk and in 2 minutes (w/o warning), he will slow down and act like he can barely move. We feel really sorry for him!!! Our vet is out of ideas, as is Cornell other than seizure meds. 

For what we've been thru in testing and the ups and downs, for us and Jasper, we're not apt to go for another barrage of tests until we get a better coefficient of confidence that we might be on the right track. Our vet can't think of any tests to run that we haven't already run. 

Why were the original episodes so intense and took so long for recovery and now they are a lot milder and he recovers in 1/2 hour? Makes no sense at all!

Thanks for the replies and help - Ted


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## Sweetp

Was there any pest control done in the area recently that you know of? Also, when was he last vaccinated or given shots before he had the first episode? 
One has to wonder about chemical toxicity in the environment, in vaccinations or in food.


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## onionfarmer

Sweetp said:


> Was there any pest control done in the area recently that you know of? Also, when was he last vaccinated or given shots before he had the first episode?
> One has to wonder about chemical toxicity in the environment, in vaccinations or in food.


We live in the middle of a large field. So, we control all the pest control and fertilizer/weed killer. None was used this year because when we would have done it, he got sick. So, we didn't do anything this year along those lines. Also, our neighbors didn't do anything either this year. 

He is never outside w/o us, so we're positive that he didn't get into anything. I'm literally with him 24 x 7, so we know it is not anything along those lines.

He was vaccinated as normal and it was months before any of the episodes started. Our other dogs have been fine showing no signs of any of the problems that Jasper has been experiencing. They are usually all vaccinated at the same time as it is easier to track and to do. 

I've been leaning towards the food. Haven't found any recalls on our brand. I did read about vitamin D toxicity issues a couple of years ago. Symptoms were similar to Jasper's.

Ted


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## Sweetp

Since you've changed his food, we will hope and pray that Jaspers condition improves as the offending substance works its way out of his body.


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## Theo'sMom

I'm wondering if they tested vitamin D in his bloodwork and if that would be elevated if it was a D toxicity?


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## cliffdweller

Ted,

Has epilepsy been considered & ruled out ? -- &, perhaps, especially the late-onset form, Lafora Disease? (is found in Poodles, but, I think, is relatively rare).


A long shot, but, perhaps, not unworthy of a little consideration, is a tick-borne disease (not necessarily Lyme, and perhaps not detected in routine tests), if Jasper has had exposure to these. Some forms(& combinations) can be tricky to diagnose.


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## pandj

It took three years to for one of my dogs to finally be diagnosed with seizures. It really sounds like seizures to me. 

I know how frustrating it is and how helpless you feel. I am so sorry.

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## onionfarmer

Theo'sMom said:


> I'm wondering if they tested vitamin D in his bloodwork and if that would be elevated if it was a D toxicity?


We checked his blood several times. He never showed any high levels of vitamin D. However, I have read that some dogs have naturally low levels of vitamin D, so when it shows as normal it is really elevated. We never had to run any blood work on him before (other than normal checkups), so we don't have a good base to compare. 



nu2poodles said:


> Ted,
> 
> Has epilepsy been considered & ruled out ? -- &, perhaps, especially the late-onset form, Lafora Disease? (is found in Poodles, but, I think, is relatively rare).
> 
> The Cornell neurological group did extensive testing on him and they were confident that it wasn't epilepsy. Their review of our videos was the basis for this.
> 
> A long shot, but, perhaps, not unworthy of a little consideration, is a tick-borne disease (not necessarily Lyme, and perhaps not detected in routine tests), if Jasper has had exposure to these. Some forms(& combinations) can be tricky to diagnose.


This is a good point because we have lots of deer and turkey on our property. Cornell ran a spinal tap and brain fluid tests on him and everything came back normal.



pandj said:


> It took three years to for one of my dogs to finally be diagnosed with seizures. It really sounds like seizures to me.
> 
> I know how frustrating it is and how helpless you feel. I am so sorry.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


How did you finally figure out it was seizures? Cornell's neurologic group's approach was that if they can't find anything wrong, then it has to be some form of seizure. However, their heart group also felt that if you can't find anything wrong, it could be heart related. They couldn't find anything with extensive testing.

Jasper had a really mild spell yesterday morning. This is beyond frustrating!!!

Thank you for all the input and comments. Ted


----------



## cliffdweller

Idiopathic or ?Old Dog? Vestibular Disease | The Bark


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## pandj

I recorded every episodes in a log and the circumstances. I was finally able to walk in the door with her in the middle of one. About two years after her diagnosis she had Vestibulers.

At eight and a half it could very easily be a combination of things. Seizures are often secondary to another condition.

Hoping that someone will soon find out what is wrong with your beautiful boy.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## onionfarmer

Everyone has been so nice and helpful on this forum, I thought that I would post an update on Jasper. Knock on wood, he hasn't had an episode since my last writing! Fingers crossed big time on this! I felt really bad for him, so we got some limited ball playing (really limited) in the last couple of days. He just loves it!!! No ill effects of the exercise. This is a quality of life issue with him. He lives to play and is really unhappy if he doesn't get to. To be fair, if he can't play, nobody gets to play. I'm really cautious with this, since we don't know what is wrong with him! However, he has played a lot everyday since he was 8 weeks old and I can tell he doesn't feel alive w/o playing. The difference in his attitude is amazing! Anybody that thinks dogs don't have feelings, need to do what is fun to them or aren't really smart is clueless! All day long now he is looking in the pocket of my coat for a ball.

My wife and I were talking the other night about heart worm meds. We've had a couple of hard frosts here over the last couple of weeks. So, we've taken the boys off hard worm meds and flea/tick meds until spring. We've done this every year for probably the last 30 years. Our vet changed heart worm meds this year. After a couple of months of the new heart worm meds, Jasper developed his problem. Has anybody had problems with heart worm meds? Thanks - Ted


----------



## cliffdweller

Thank you for the update ! Good news; fingers crossed ...

What are the new heartworm meds ? There are reports of some dogs having difficulties with some of these. Need to be careful sorting these reports though. One of my Vets wanted to put Rain on Trifexis. After doing research on this med, I declined (too new & 'iffy' for me).


----------



## fuzzymom

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...-breeds-that-are-sensitive-to-ivermectin.aspx


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## onionfarmer

nu2poodles said:


> Thank you for the update ! Good news; fingers crossed ...
> 
> What are the new heartworm meds ? There are reports of some dogs having difficulties with some of these. Need to be careful sorting these reports though. One of my Vets wanted to put Rain on Trifexis. After doing research on this med, I declined (too new & 'iffy' for me).


We put them all on Sentinel this year at our vet's suggestion. We've always had them on Interceptor, since when I can remember. Ted


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## pandj

Thank you so much for giving us an update ! I am so glad that your guy has been doing better. 

I do not give my senior dogs anything for heartworm. Heart worms grow very slowly. I would not risk giving heartworm meds to him again.

Do you follow Dr. Jean Dodds vaccine protocol ? If not I would recommend researching it. 

Sending good wishes and hoping that you have found the problem.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## liljaker

I just saw this thread today, as I have not been spending much time on PF in the last few months. I am so very sorry to hear about Jasper. I know how frustrating not knowing must be!!! I am glad you are following up on many of the suggestions posted here -- this is a good group of poodle owners with lots of information.

My vet wanted to keep Sunny on heartguard over the winter, too, but honestly, I am thinking it is not necessary and I hate to give him meds unless absolutely necessary. He was on Revolution throughout the spring and summer.

Sending positive thoughts and wishes your way!


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## Carley's Mom

I don't , nor have I ever, giving any of my dogs heart worm meds. I have never had a sick dog, all my dogs have lived to be very old dogs without issues. I don't know if that is a factor or not, but I am sticking with what has worked for me. I don't like to give any meds, if I can help it. So glad to hear your boy is doing better. Thanks for the update.


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## N2Mischief

Being in Southern California, heartworm is very rare. We don't treat. I hope all the problems with the drugs are worked out before we ever have to use it!


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## Samba

Glad to hear your dog is doing better.

We had one similar to your dog come in through our neurology department. Full workup showed nothing, diagnosis was absence seizures. The dog has been doing very well on keppra, no episodes.

Heartworm meds could easily be stopped, just test yearly. Sentinel is generally one of the less "side effect" ones out there. If the episodes continue to be in remission, I would definitely recommend keeping off the heartworm meds.

Has the neurologist suggested a medication trial?


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## onionfarmer

Update - well Jasper had another minor episode on Friday. Not too bad, he was back to himself in less than 1/2 hour. I cannot tell you how frustrating this is!!! We are absolutely at a loss as what to do next! We feel so bad for Jasper!!!




Samba said:


> Glad to hear your dog is doing better.
> 
> We had one similar to your dog come in through our neurology department. Full workup showed nothing, diagnosis was absence seizures. The dog has been doing very well on keppra, no episodes.
> 
> Heartworm meds could easily be stopped, just test yearly. Sentinel is generally one of the less "side effect" ones out there. If the episodes continue to be in remission, I would definitely recommend keeping off the heartworm meds.
> 
> Has the neurologist suggested a medication trial?


ZONISAMIDE is what Cornell's neurological group recommended. At the time, Jasper was having attacks that actually floored him to the point he would be knocked down for at least one day and some times several days. After discussing with our vet, we decided to hold-off on any meds as to not mask what might be really going on as we still had heart workups and ultrasounds to do. We are averaging about 1 minor attack a week right now. Thanks Ted


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## Manxcat

Thanks for the updates Onionfarmer. I really hope you all manage to get to the bottom of this eventually. Meanwhile, know you are being sent all good wishes from us. x


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## Poodlebeguiled

Sending you all the best wishes that this can be figured out about this. Thanks for letting us know. It's very frustrating indeed.


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## N2Mischief

So frustrated for you! We just went through a bunch of testing with our cat and I know it is not about the money, just that after spending so much you have NO answers! That is how we were too. In just 4 days we spent $1500.00.

The being weak and collapsing I can relate to, and it is so irritating! Like Jasper, I just want to do what I do, and then I have a flare up and am on the couch for hours to days. 

I am sending good vibes that they come up with an answer soon!


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## MollyMuiMa

Thank You for the update! We're all rootin' for your mystery to be solved!!!! It has to be stressful for all concerned !


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## pandj

I am so sorry that Jasper is still having episodes. Poor guy! Please keep us updated.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## RobertWhitney

onionfarmer said:


> Recently, have run into a problem with one of our male neutered Standard Poodles, Jasper (8 ½ years old). Never any illnesses or sickness before this. I’m lucky enough to be with our dogs 24 x 7, so he gets run several times each day. I’m afraid to run him now because of this problem. He’s not happy about that at all! He has always been super strong, until now. Sometimes he will throw-up yellow bile before, sometimes, not. Attack can happen anytime of the day with or without warning. He’ll be fine and then all of a sudden, starts slowing down and then starts staggering, sometimes he will fall down. He will standup, but will be unsteady on his feet and weak. We’ve captured these attacks on video for Cornell and our vets. This has been going on since the middle of June. The first time this happened (he was outside), I carried him into the house and held him in my arms, my wife and I thought that we had lost him. We thought that he had a stroke. Took six hours for him to recover. Took him to our vet, thorough checkup including blood work. Couldn’t find anything wrong. A couple of weeks go by, Jasper has another attack. Off to our vet, they send us to Cornell Medical Center for an emergency visit. Spend the day there, lots of tests and they couldn’t find anything wrong with him. Because he stabilized, they released him. The next day (Saturday), he had 4 attacks and I told my wife that I expected he would be gone by the morning. We called Cornell’s Emergency Room and they told us if we brought him in they would release him if he stabilized. It is 1 1/2 hour drive for us to Cornell, so, we stayed up all night with him. The next morning he was fine. At Cornell’s recommendation, we then had full neurological set of tests run including MRI (brain scan) spinal tap, x-rays of his major body areas including chest. Then heart testing set including EKG and ultrasound of his heart. Then ultrasound of his lungs, abdomen, liver, kidneys, intestines and colon. We’ve run approximately $1.5k in blood work tests (including special Thyroid and Diabetes tests) with nothing showing up. We’ve run urine tests, Acid Bile, Addison’s and Cushing’s tests and all have come back clear. Cornell Medical staff is stumped, our local vet and local animal hospital are also. Cornell’s recommendation was to put Jasper on seizure meds, which we’re reluctant to do because we want to identify the problem and just not mask it or cover it up. I’ve had dogs with seizures and these don’t look or feel like seizures to me. We’ve contacted Jasper’s breeder (great person with 30 years of experience) and she has never seen anything like this in her lines.
> 
> After all this, we went 30 days and he was back to normal. Full of energy and strong. Then out of the blue, he threw-up and it started all over again. Now, the attacks are more minor and instead of collapsing, he just gets really slow. Almost like he is moving in slow motion. He now, usually recovers in less than two hours from each of the episodes.
> 
> He’s been on Blue Buffalo dog food for several years. The only thing that we change is the flavor. Throughout this Jasper has been extremely thirsty, urinates a lot more and is starving. We think that this condition could be gastric related. We’ve checked for all kinds of poisoning. As a note, our other two dogs are fine.
> 
> Jasper is a wonderful and loving friend! Everyone that meets him loves him! We love him and want to help him, but are at a loss as what to do next. All these test show nothing! Any ideas or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance - Ted.


I just experienced almost the same. See link http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/72705-little-no-warning.html
Tex will be cremated this week. I hope you have better luck than I did. My heart goes out to you.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

There is a relatively inexpensive DNA test you can do with a simple cheek swab for DM (degenerative myelopathy) . I am not 100% sure of the symptoms, but every time I read these threads, I think that if this were my dog, I would want to rule it out. It can be ordered at OFFA.org. you can read up about it there too to see if any other symptoms might be the same.


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## Chagall's mom

*onionfarmer*: I want to offer some suggestions.

~ Contact Barbara Licht, PhD Canine seizure researcher at: Dr. Barbara Licht | Psychology at Florida State University She is extremely kind and might be able to offer some guidance.

~ Contact Dr. Jean Dodds via her Hemopet Lab Home Dr. Dodds and her research team offer a wealth of knowledge about unusual symptoms in pets. The cost of tests at her lab is usually less than at other labs. I know pet owners who have received compassionate help from her via telephone and emails. 

I hope someone can help your boy!:clover:


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## onionfarmer

*Good News*

Time for an update. It has been a long, long struggle. We want to thank everyone for their ideas, suggestions and comments. I want to post this information as it may help someone else with their dog with similar symptoms. We took Chagall's advice and contacted Dr. Barbara Licht at FSU and she was extremely helpful and absolutely wonderful to work with! Jasper ended up with a *severe e. coli infection*. In fact, it almost killed him! 

To recap, this has been going on since May of 2013. We've run just about every canine test known to man and all tests came back negative. Jasper just kept getting worse. We finally tried seizure meds which made him even worse. It got really bad! He was throwing up a couple of times a day and could barely stand. Wouldn't eat. We thought it was over. So, we took him in for a last vet visit to see if there was anything else we could do. We did bloodwork and urine and it showed he had severe renal failure, creatinine level of 2.7. We couldn't figure out how this happened out of the blue. In discussions with our vet, we decided to run a urine culture. It came back positive for e. coli. *Somehow, with all the tests that we ran, this got missed.* We immediately started him on antibiotics and within two days he started to improve. He did six weeks of antibiotics and now he's been two weeks off. "Knock on wood", he's approximately 70% of what he once was (instead of 20%) and creatinine levels have been falling, three weeks ago at 1.3. Last urine culture shows e. coli is gone. Hopefully, he keeps getting better and his kidneys continue to heal. This episode really took a lot out of him. We hope this information helps someone else. Ted


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## Poodlebeguiled

Oh wow! You have been through the ringer with this dog. Poor thing. It is good news that he is on the mend. Do you know what the e-coli source was? I always heard dogs were pretty resistant to that. But maybe sometimes it can be over whelming. I'm so sorry your dog went through all that illness but glad he is doing so much better.


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## onionfarmer

Thanks Poodlebeguiled. We live in the country, so it could have been anything for the source. It came close to killing him! Jasper's had a rough run! Hopefully, he continues to get better!


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## pandj

Oh my gosh ! Thank you so much for letting us know what happened. Poor Jasper!!! I am happy to hear that he is doing better. 

I will pass this information along to all of my dog friends! 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Manxcat

OMG I can't believe this was missed when he was having all those tests! Anyway, it's done now, but what you have all been through has been awful.

I am so very pleased to hear that things are picking up and Jasper is getting so much better! Thank you so much for updating us


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## fjm

Not an obvious cause of his problems, which I suppose is how it was missed, but I am so glad that you finally have a diagnosis, and that you got it in the nick of time. Hope Jasper now continues to improve with every passing week - poor boy, what a hell of a time he has had.


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## onionfarmer

We appreciate your comments. This was a really scary situation. Had we not kept pushing, he would be gone now! He didn't quit, so neither did we! This was really hard because he kept coming to us for help, getting sicker and sicker and we didn't know what to do. He's a wonderful friend! 

What the medical community did to this dog was just wrong, just keep throwing money at it and maybe something will show up. There is so much that should be changed with medical procedures! We're begging to move up appointments and exams because he is so sick. Even with the last set of tests, nobody would believe that it was e. coli. The thought was that we didn't get a clean sample. I stayed up the entire night before the test (couldn't sleep) trying to come up with a method to get a clean sample. 

You can feel our frustration. We don't care what we went thru, it was what he went thru. He was really sick after the MRI and spinal tap. *On the positive, he's getting better and that's all that really counts! *

*The bottom line, we hope that someone reads this thread and it helps their dog before it is too late! *


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## fjm

I think it would be a good idea to start a new thread, with both the symptoms and e-coli in the title, so that it comes up on Google searches, and a summary of all you have been through. As you say, if you can ensure no other dogs (and their humans) suffer like this then at least something good will come out of this terrible experience.


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## Sunbeam

I read this whole thread because I was researching Mega-Esophagus. I just wanted to tell you how relieved I am that Jasper is ok and that you didn't give up. My heart went out to you as I read the post where you described the relationship you have with your Jasper. Unless you have had that kind of relationship with an animal, it's hard to understand. I have and my life will never be the same because of it. I'm so glad that you had a happy ending!!


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## Poodlebeguiled

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> There is a relatively inexpensive DNA test you can do with a simple cheek swab for DM (degenerative myelopathy) . I am not 100% sure of the symptoms, but every time I read these threads, I think that if this were my dog, I would want to rule it out. It can be ordered at OFFA.org. you can read up about it there too to see if any other symptoms might be the same.


I had a GSD with DM. Those symptoms do not resemble that to me. He started getting a little weak and wobbly in his back legs and when he walked, the tops of his back feet would go on the ground first, (a classic sign) then they'd straighten out. It is a thing where the myelin covering, an insulation of sorts along the nerve pathways gets a tear in it or hole and the electrochemical impulse sort of leaps out and the message isn't continuing along the nerve cells, sort of like the covering over electrical wires tearing and you get a short. The message is more of a spinal thing, not a brain originated thing. Anyhow, he gradually lost more and more control of his muscle movements in the back and back legs mostly. It is not painful but the poor dog got so frustrated because he felt fine otherwise, energetic, wanted to play with the kids but got so it was too much trouble for him. Over the course of about a year, he lost bowel control too and couldn't go up the stairs. There was no sickness otherwise, no throwing up or anything. He was alert, normal in every other way.


----------



## onionfarmer

Sunbeam said:


> I read this whole thread because I was researching Mega-Esophagus. I just wanted to tell you how relieved I am that Jasper is ok and that you didn't give up. My heart went out to you as I read the post where you described the relationship you have with your Jasper. Unless you have had that kind of relationship with an animal, it's hard to understand. I have and my life will never be the same because of it. I'm so glad that you had a happy ending!!


Sunbeam, thanks for your post. He is a special animal. He's the most gentle and sensitive animal I've ever known. He's plugging along and getting more interested in things again. I think that he is really enjoying feeling better and enjoying life again! I forgot how smart he is. When he was sick, he was listless. Now, he's checking everything out. I have to watch him closely, so he doesn't wander off chasing a smell, etc..

I've only had this kind of relationship with one other dog. He almost lasted 19 years. He went everywhere with me. Always sitting next to me in the truck. When we lost him, I was lost for along time. I still miss him! Jasper and him were great friends! They did everything together. Jasper was lost without him for quite awhile. 

I'm just really thankful that Jasper is getting better and I get to enjoy life with him again and with Clyde and Charlie!


----------



## banksysworld

Hi. I know this post was 7 years ago but I am currently in an ER parking lot with my little 6mo mini poodle who has had 3 episodes of exactly what you’re describing. I was wondering if you ever found out the cause of what was going on with Jasper. 
I am so sorry you went thru this, I feel like we’re on an episode of mystery diagnosis...

the last 2 collapses were caught very late he was rushed back. This time we caught it a little early. Notice him panting & pacing back and forth to the front door (as if he’s telling me something isn’t right) then I noticed his hind life’s looking funny as he walked and eventually he would just collapse, tongue out, disorientation, shallow breathing, drooling,lethargic.. each time the hospital says it seems like some for of anaphylactic shock... were just trying to make sense of it all any sometime forums are the best place to find answers as we’re relying on the experts who aren’t giving us any answers.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

banksysworld said:


> Hi. I know this post was 7 years ago but I am currently in an ER parking lot with my little 6mo mini poodle who has had 3 episodes of exactly what you’re describing. I was wondering if you ever found out the cause of what was going on with Jasper.
> I am so sorry you went thru this, I feel like we’re on an episode of mystery diagnosis...
> 
> the last 2 collapses were caught very late he was rushed back. This time we caught it a little early. Notice him panting & pacing back and forth to the front door (as if he’s telling me something isn’t right) then I noticed his hind life’s looking funny as he walked and eventually he would just collapse, tongue out, disorientation, shallow breathing, drooling,lethargic.. each time the hospital says it seems like some for of anaphylactic shock... were just trying to make sense of it all any sometime forums are the best place to find answers as we’re relying on the experts who aren’t giving us any answers.


I'm so sorry you and your pup are going through this. Did you read through the whole thread? I skimmed it quickly, and this 2014 update seems to contain the diagnosis, but when you can, give it a thorough read in case I overlooked something else that may be helpful to you:



onionfarmer said:


> *Good News*
> 
> Time for an update. It has been a long, long struggle. We want to thank everyone for their ideas, suggestions and comments. I want to post this information as it may help someone else with their dog with similar symptoms. We took Chagall's advice and contacted Dr. Barbara Licht at FSU and she was extremely helpful and absolutely wonderful to work with! Jasper ended up with a *severe e. coli infection*. In fact, it almost killed him!
> 
> To recap, this has been going on since May of 2013. We've run just about every canine test known to man and all tests came back negative. Jasper just kept getting worse. We finally tried seizure meds which made him even worse. It got really bad! He was throwing up a couple of times a day and could barely stand. Wouldn't eat. We thought it was over. So, we took him in for a last vet visit to see if there was anything else we could do. We did bloodwork and urine and it showed he had severe renal failure, creatinine level of 2.7. We couldn't figure out how this happened out of the blue. In discussions with our vet, we decided to run a urine culture. It came back positive for e. coli. *Somehow, with all the tests that we ran, this got missed.* We immediately started him on antibiotics and within two days he started to improve. He did six weeks of antibiotics and now he's been two weeks off. "Knock on wood", he's approximately 70% of what he once was (instead of 20%) and creatinine levels have been falling, three weeks ago at 1.3. Last urine culture shows e. coli is gone. Hopefully, he keeps getting better and his kidneys continue to heal. This episode really took a lot out of him. We hope this information helps someone else. Ted





onionfarmer said:


> We appreciate your comments. This was a really scary situation. Had we not kept pushing, he would be gone now! He didn't quit, so neither did we! This was really hard because he kept coming to us for help, getting sicker and sicker and we didn't know what to do. He's a wonderful friend!
> 
> What the medical community did to this dog was just wrong, just keep throwing money at it and maybe something will show up. There is so much that should be changed with medical procedures! We're begging to move up appointments and exams because he is so sick. Even with the last set of tests, nobody would believe that it was e. coli. The thought was that we didn't get a clean sample. I stayed up the entire night before the test (couldn't sleep) trying to come up with a method to get a clean sample.
> 
> You can feel our frustration. We don't care what we went thru, it was what he went thru. He was really sick after the MRI and spinal tap. *On the positive, he's getting better and that's all that really counts!
> 
> The bottom line, we hope that someone reads this thread and it helps their dog before it is too late!*


----------



## banksysworld

Yes it’s very scary and unfortunate thing to go thru, I wouldn’t wish this on anyone. These poor pups are so innocent and don’t deserve this. But thank you! 
I did skim thru it looking for anything that stood out (EPI, EIC, among a few others) but I was also in a very emotional state and clearly looked over this ‘14 update. I will look further into this and I REALLY APPRECIATE you for replying so quickly. THANK YOU!

I never saw anything about Addison’s disease in the thread tho, we’ve been told by a few to have that test done which he has set up in a few weeks!! 
maybe I’ll have to make my own post


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## PeggyTheParti

banksysworld said:


> Yes it’s very scary and unfortunate thing to go thru, I wouldn’t wish this on anyone. These poor pups are so innocent and don’t deserve this. But thank you!
> I did skim thru it looking for anything that stood out (EPI, EIC, among a few others) but I was also in a very emotional state and clearly looked over this ‘14 update. I will look further into this and I REALLY APPRECIATE you for replying so quickly. THANK YOU!
> 
> I never saw anything about Addison’s disease in the thread tho, we’ve been told by a few to have that test done which he has set up in a few weeks!!
> maybe I’ll have to make my own post


Did you request an E. coli test? Let us know how it goes. 

Would be amazing if this thread prevented your poodle from enduring all the testing that the original poster's poodle did. Good luck! Will be hoping for good news.


----------



## Vita

banksysworld said:


> I feel like we’re on an episode of mystery diagnosis... the last 2 collapses were caught very late he was rushed back. This time we caught it a little early. Notice him panting & pacing back and forth to the front door (as if he’s telling me something isn’t right) then I noticed his hind life’s looking funny as he walked and eventually he would just collapse, tongue out, disorientation, shallow breathing, drooling,lethargic.. each time the hospital says it seems like some for of anaphylactic shock...


It could be a medical problem, but the first thing that occurred to me was something toxic he might have gotten into (or deliberately given), that is odorless and sweet, like antifreeze or rat poison. See this page at the Pet Poison Hotline, and there is a section for Vets too.

7 Garage and Shed Toxins.


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## PeggyTheParti

There are so many canine hazards lurking out there. And in the average home, too! I've heard terrible things about essential oils, for example. Signs of essential oil poisoning:

_Difficulty breathing (labored breathing, fast breathing, coughing, wheezing) _
_Drooling and/or vomiting. _
_Tremors. _
_Ataxia (difficulty walking, stumbling, wobbling)_





__





Essential Oil Poisoning In Dogs: Signs & Symptoms


Many essential oils are toxic to pets and may cause severe respiratory irritation, GI upset, liver failure, paralysis, and other life-threatening symptoms.




www.ethosvet.com


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## banksysworld

PeggyTheParti said:


> Did you request an E. coli test? Let us know how it goes.
> 
> Would be amazing if this thread prevented your poodle from enduring all the testing that the original poster's poodle did. Good luck! Will be hoping for good news.


Hii!! We have his urine culture test scheduled for the 27th along with his Addisonian, ACT Stem test, thyroid, and a few others! We will definitely update you when we get the results.
Thanks so much for reaching out!


----------



## banksysworld

Vita said:


> It could be a medical problem, but the first thing that occurred to me was something toxic he might have gotten into (or deliberately given), that is odorless and sweet, like antifreeze or rat poison. See this page at the Pet Poison Hotline, and there is a section for Vets too.
> 
> 7 Garage and Shed Toxins.


Hi thanks so much for reaching out, we have had a tox screen and drug screen each time he’s gone in all being negative but we have stopped Orkin and any other services that may cause harm, and we’re still seeing episodes. We will have an update after we run some tests on the 27th!


----------



## PeggyTheParti

banksysworld said:


> Hii!! We have his urine culture test scheduled for the 27th along with his Addisonian, ACT Stem test, thyroid, and a few others! We will definitely update you when we get the results.
> Thanks so much for reaching out!


Will be keeping my fingers crossed that you get some answers.

Did you mention the E. coli findings to your vet? Is that one of the tests being run?


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## banksysworld

PeggyTheParti said:


> Will be keeping my fingers crossed that you get some answers.
> 
> Did you mention the E. coli findings to your vet? Is that one of the tests being run?


Back with an update: 
Our tests got bumped up several days because Banksy had 2 collapse within a week (3 total this month, 5all together, first in July) .. so with that being said we had the urine culture ran, Addisonians test, senior panel, and thyroid check. ALL CAME BACK NORMAL/NEGATIVE. We were really praying for answers but we’re still left with a mystery diagnosis. We will be hoping on a call with our vet to discuss where to go from here this afternoon. 
Thanks!


----------



## PeggyTheParti

banksysworld said:


> Back with an update:
> Our tests got bumped up several days because Banksy had 2 collapse within a week (3 total this month, 5all together, first in July) .. so with that being said we had the urine culture ran, Addisonians test, senior panel, and thyroid check. ALL CAME BACK NORMAL/NEGATIVE. We were really praying for answers but we’re still left with a mystery diagnosis. We will be hoping on a call with our vet to discuss where to go from here this afternoon.
> Thanks!


I'm sorry to hear this. Was the E. coli test definitively negative?

I was so hoping that would be the key.


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## FloofyPoodle

Do the collapses look like this? (Warning, this is a video of a dog having a focal seizure.) If your dog is doing what the OP described, it could be the culprit. Shallow breathing, fearful behavior, and eventual collapse does sound suspiciously like one to me, although I admit I am still learning about the topic. Have you had those related tests done? Is there anything in the environment known to cause them that has changed? Is it possible that he is not eating enough, as as a 6 month old mini, he could be prone to blood sugar drop-induced seizures? I would still do the E. Coli test, just in case, but would bring that possibility up to the vet. Have you recorded any of these episodes? I hope you get a diagnosis soon, it can’t be easy not knowing.

EDIT: adding additional video of a different type of seizure. This one has some information.


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## banksysworld

PeggyTheParti said:


> I'm sorry to hear this. Was the E. coli test definitively negative?
> 
> I was so hoping that would be the key.



There were no bacteria found in his culture.. I’m so bummed these tests didn’t leave us with any answers right now. Due to this I will probably make our own post after we speak with our vet as to whats next.


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## banksysworld

FloofyPoodle said:


> Do the collapses look like this? (Warning, this is a video of a dog having a focal seizure.) If your dog is doing what the OP described, it could be the culprit. Shallow breathing, fearful behavior, and eventual collapse does sound suspiciously like one to me, although I admit I am still learning about the topic. Have you had those related tests done? Is there anything in the environment known to cause them that has changed? Is it possible that he is not eating enough, as as a 6 month old mini, he could be prone to blood sugar drop-induced seizures? I would still do the E. Coli test, just in case, but would bring that possibility up to the vet. Have you recorded any of these episodes? I hope you get a diagnosis soon, it can’t be easy not knowing.
> 
> EDIT: adding additional video of a different type of seizure. This one has some information.


Hello. Thanks for reaching out - I watched the video and it’s not like that. His arms don’t go up or stretch out and he isn’t fearful. He will pace and pant then collapse, get back up and do it again (hind legs going first) until he just can’t get up anymore, along with shallow breathing OR heavy panting but once he’s fully collapsed, tongue falls out, guns are either extremely light or extreme dark, disorientation, but remaining consciousness. I will be making our own post that will go into more detail soon after we speak with his Vet about where to go from here.


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## Bryony

onionfarmer said:


> Recently, have run into a problem with one of our male neutered Standard Poodles, Jasper (8 ½ years old). Never any illnesses or sickness before this. I’m lucky enough to be with our dogs 24 x 7, so he gets run several times each day. I’m afraid to run him now because of this problem. He’s not happy about that at all! He has always been super strong, until now. Sometimes he will throw-up yellow bile before, sometimes, not. Attack can happen anytime of the day with or without warning. He’ll be fine and then all of a sudden, starts slowing down and then starts staggering, sometimes he will fall down. He will standup, but will be unsteady on his feet and weak. We’ve captured these attacks on video for Cornell and our vets. This has been going on since the middle of June. The first time this happened (he was outside), I carried him into the house and held him in my arms, my wife and I thought that we had lost him. We thought that he had a stroke. Took six hours for him to recover. Took him to our vet, thorough checkup including blood work. Couldn’t find anything wrong. A couple of weeks go by, Jasper has another attack. Off to our vet, they send us to Cornell Medical Center for an emergency visit. Spend the day there, lots of tests and they couldn’t find anything wrong with him. Because he stabilized, they released him. The next day (Saturday), he had 4 attacks and I told my wife that I expected he would be gone by the morning. We called Cornell’s Emergency Room and they told us if we brought him in they would release him if he stabilized. It is 1 1/2 hour drive for us to Cornell, so, we stayed up all night with him. The next morning he was fine. At Cornell’s recommendation, we then had full neurological set of tests run including MRI (brain scan) spinal tap, x-rays of his major body areas including chest. Then heart testing set including EKG and ultrasound of his heart. Then ultrasound of his lungs, abdomen, liver, kidneys, intestines and colon. We’ve run approximately $1.5k in blood work tests (including special Thyroid and Diabetes tests) with nothing showing up. We’ve run urine tests, Acid Bile, Addison’s and Cushing’s tests and all have come back clear. Cornell Medical staff is stumped, our local vet and local animal hospital are also. Cornell’s recommendation was to put Jasper on seizure meds, which we’re reluctant to do because we want to identify the problem and just not mask it or cover it up. I’ve had dogs with seizures and these don’t look or feel like seizures to me. We’ve contacted Jasper’s breeder (great person with 30 years of experience) and she has never seen anything like this in her lines.
> 
> After all this, we went 30 days and he was back to normal. Full of energy and strong. Then out of the blue, he threw-up and it started all over again. Now, the attacks are more minor and instead of collapsing, he just gets really slow. Almost like he is moving in slow motion. He now, usually recovers in less than two hours from each of the episodes.
> 
> He’s been on Blue Buffalo dog food for several years. The only thing that we change is the flavor. Throughout this Jasper has been extremely thirsty, urinates a lot more and is starving. We think that this condition could be gastric related. We’ve checked for all kinds of poisoning. As a note, our other two dogs are fine.
> 
> Jasper is a wonderful and loving friend! Everyone that meets him loves him! We love him and want to help him, but are at a loss as what to do next. All these test show nothing! Any ideas or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance - Ted.


Hello Robert,
I am sorry you are going through this with your Standard Poodle. We are also experiencing what looks to be the same problem. Our Standard is almost five, healthy and then recently has had some vomiting, and walking crooked, stretching, just looked like GI stuff, except if was not quite right. Last night Three weeks later he woke up paced around and collapsed while he vomited. Then ten minutes later collapsed again without vomiting. We took him to our ER vet, full panel, electrolytes checked, resting cortisol test. We are waiting for some of the results. The vets are scratching their heads, and like you we are very worried about him. The ER vet did say, sometimes they just don't know and the issue goes away. If I find out anything I will message, will you please do the same?
Best,


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## PeggyTheParti

Bryony said:


> Hello Robert,
> I am sorry you are going through this with your Standard Poodle. We are also experiencing what looks to be the same problem. Our Standard is almost five, healthy and then recently has had some vomiting, and walking crooked, stretching, just looked like GI stuff, except if was not quite right. Last night Three weeks later he woke up paced around and collapsed while he vomited. Then ten minutes later collapsed again without vomiting. We took him to our ER vet, full panel, electrolytes checked, resting cortisol test. We are waiting for some of the results. The vets are scratching their heads, and like you we are very worried about him. The ER vet did say, sometimes they just don't know and the issue goes away. If I find out anything I will message, will you please do the same?
> Best,


I’m so sorry to hear your poodle has been sick. This is an old thread, and luckily @onionfarmer did figure out what was going on with Jasper. Here’s his 2014 update:

_“Time for an update. It has been a long, long struggle. We want to thank everyone for their ideas, suggestions and comments. I want to post this information as it may help someone else with their dog with similar symptoms. We took Chagall's advice and contacted Dr. Barbara Licht at FSU and she was extremely helpful and absolutely wonderful to work with! Jasper ended up with a *severe e. coli infection*. In fact, it almost killed him!

To recap, this has been going on since May of 2013. We've run just about every canine test known to man and all tests came back negative. Jasper just kept getting worse. We finally tried seizure meds which made him even worse. It got really bad! He was throwing up a couple of times a day and could barely stand. Wouldn't eat. We thought it was over. So, we took him in for a last vet visit to see if there was anything else we could do. We did bloodwork and urine and it showed he had severe renal failure, creatinine level of 2.7. We couldn't figure out how this happened out of the blue. In discussions with our vet, we decided to run a urine culture. It came back positive for e. coli. Somehow, with all the tests that we ran, this got missed. We immediately started him on antibiotics and within two days he started to improve. He did six weeks of antibiotics and now he's been two weeks off. "Knock on wood", he's approximately 70% of what he once was (instead of 20%) and creatinine levels have been falling, three weeks ago at 1.3. Last urine culture shows e. coli is gone. Hopefully, he keeps getting better and his kidneys continue to heal. This episode really took a lot out of him. We hope this information helps someone else. Ted”_

I hope it’s helpful to you and your spoo. Do you know if he was tested for E. coli?


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## Bryony

PeggyTheParti said:


> I’m so sorry to hear your poodle has been sick. This is an old thread, and luckily @onionfarmer did figure out what was going on with Jasper. Here’s his 2014 update:
> 
> _“Time for an update. It has been a long, long struggle. We want to thank everyone for their ideas, suggestions and comments. I want to post this information as it may help someone else with their dog with similar symptoms. We took Chagall's advice and contacted Dr. Barbara Licht at FSU and she was extremely helpful and absolutely wonderful to work with! Jasper ended up with a *severe e. coli infection*. In fact, it almost killed him!
> 
> To recap, this has been going on since May of 2013. We've run just about every canine test known to man and all tests came back negative. Jasper just kept getting worse. We finally tried seizure meds which made him even worse. It got really bad! He was throwing up a couple of times a day and could barely stand. Wouldn't eat. We thought it was over. So, we took him in for a last vet visit to see if there was anything else we could do. We did bloodwork and urine and it showed he had severe renal failure, creatinine level of 2.7. We couldn't figure out how this happened out of the blue. In discussions with our vet, we decided to run a urine culture. It came back positive for e. coli. Somehow, with all the tests that we ran, this got missed. We immediately started him on antibiotics and within two days he started to improve. He did six weeks of antibiotics and now he's been two weeks off. "Knock on wood", he's approximately 70% of what he once was (instead of 20%) and creatinine levels have been falling, three weeks ago at 1.3. Last urine culture shows e. coli is gone. Hopefully, he keeps getting better and his kidneys continue to heal. This episode really took a lot out of him. We hope this information helps someone else. Ted”_
> 
> I hope it’s helpful to you and your spoo. Do you know if he was tested for E. coli?


Gosh, I don't know if Roland was tested for eColi, but I'll be asking today! I am so grateful to all of you and for forwarding the recap even though it was so long ago. Crossing all my fingers and toes. 
Best, Bryony


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## PeggyTheParti

Bryony said:


> Gosh, I don't know if Roland was tested for eColi, but I'll be asking today! I am so grateful to all of you and for forwarding the recap even though it was so long ago. Crossing all my fingers and toes.
> Best, Bryony


I’m crossing mine, too! Hope you’ll keep us updated.


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## 94Magna_Tom

Bryony said:


> Gosh, I don't know if Roland was tested for eColi, but I'll be asking today! I am so grateful to all of you and for forwarding the recap even though it was so long ago. Crossing all my fingers and toes.
> Best, Bryony


Welcome. Praying Roland gets better[emoji120].


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## Bryony

Thank you , that means a lot to me. I will let everyone know what happens here. Poor pup.


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## Rose n Poos

Hoping for answers for you all soon. I'll also be looking for updates.

Not to muddy the waters but my mpoo girl Noel, was diagnosed with a heart murmur around 14y which, in her case, progressed to CHF. When she reached that stage she'd have occasional, at first, episodes which resembled both syncope and seizure activity, sometimes with more of one than the other.

It's not easy to have the presence of mind to grab your phone and start videoing but that would be an excellent diagnostic tool for the vet.

This video of another dog captures something of Noel's behavior with her collapses. I'm linking this only for comparison. There's no reason to think it's a heart condition at this young age, but it could possibly be fainting spells, and for other reasons. Some are mentioned here What Causes Fainting in a Dog? And What Should You Do?

Your boys vomiting prior is the puzzle piece that doesn't quite fit the above.


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## Bryony

Rose n Poos said:


> Hoping for answers for you all soon. I'll also be looking for updates.
> 
> Not to muddy the waters but my mpoo girl Noel, was diagnosed with a heart murmur around 14y which, in her case, progressed to CHF. When she reached that stage she'd have occasional, at first, episodes which resembled both syncope and seizure activity, sometimes with more of one than the other.
> 
> It's not easy to have the presence of mind to grab your phone and start videoing but that would be an excellent diagnostic tool for the vet.
> 
> This video of another dog captures something of Noel's behavior with her collapses. I'm linking this only for comparison. There's no reason to think it's a heart condition at this young age, but it could possibly be fainting spells, and for other reasons. Some are mentioned here What Causes Fainting in a Dog? And What Should You Do?
> 
> Your boys vomiting prior is the puzzle piece that doesn't quite fit the above.


Thank you so much for your input and the video link. I have my phone ready in case it happens again. So far the blood work is fine, we're just waiting for the cortisol results and then the e Coli test. They say Roland's heart is strong, but I'm keeping an open mind for any possibility. Poor guy, just short walks in case it happens again. 
I am grateful for you taking the time to help Roland.
Blessings


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## JackShining371

Very late addition, but I came across this page a few months ago when searching for answers about my poodle's illness, and thought I'd share my experience in case it helps someone. 
I had a standard poodle of seven years who started displaying loss of motor control. She would trip constantly, waver unsteadily back and forth, and fall over and not be able to stand up. This would happen in episodes where it would last thirty seconds to several minutes. Concerned, I took her to the vet where they suggested that my dog had gotten into a marijuana stash, but didn't offer any further insights (no one in my household smoked). These episodes happened for about a month before they went away, and she was perfectly fine. I figured she had a bug or had gotten into something weird outside, but about four months later, all the symptoms returned. The vet confirmed that she was not having focal seizures, this was something else, but once again they suggested she had ingested marijuana. I didn't accept this answer and pushed for more tests. They were hesitant, but as she got worse, I told them I would be forced to euthanize if they wouldn't continue with the tests. They took some urine and blood samples, and while the blood samples came back clear, there was quite a bit of blood in her urine. They said it was from a UTI and gave her some meds for it.
She didn't get better, and I ended up calling an x-ray specialist. They found tumors in her urethra and kidneys. They gave her some meds for inflammation and pain and told us to come back in two weeks for another scan. At that point, they discovered that the tumors had spread to her bladder, liver, lungs, and throat as well. They told me that euthanasia was the only move at this point. She was still enjoying life, even with her symptoms, so I took her for a road trip and shared a pizza with her before saying goodbye.
Thought I'd share this because cancer was nowhere on my vet's radar, and if it was, we might have been able to save her.


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## Rose n Poos

Losing our beloved companions is too hard as it is. The sometimes unavoidable "what if's" makes it even harder, which doesn't seem possible, but it is. 

She knows how much she was, and still is, loved. That love remains.


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## cowpony

Thanks for the input from all! I'm closing this thread for now. Some of the original thread participants are no longer active, and the situation for some of the dogs mentioned has undoubtedly changed in the years since the thread was started.


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