# Red Standards in AKC?



## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Another user's thread about her search for stud dogs sparked some curiosity about red spoos and why they might not be able to do competitions. I know that parti colored dogs can't compete in AKC conformation and the like, but I assumed that as solid colored dogs, reds would be allowed to be shown in the AKC. 

To my surprise, red is *not* listed as an acceptable coat color in the AKC poodle standard. It's not listed as _un_acceptable like partis are, but it's not mentioned at all.

Why is it not mentioned? Is this why reds might not be as desirable in competitions? I read somewhere (I think - might have imagined) that red came into the spoo lines via miniature bloodlines. Is this true? Does it have anything to do with this?

I'm just curious because I love the look of a dark red parti spoo. Jasper's grandsire is one, and once I saw a picture of him I fell in love with the color. Jasper is still the most handsome dog ever in my eyes, but red partis are a close second.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I agree! The red partis are beautiful! If having two spoos hadn't cured me of mps, a red parti would be at the top of my want list. (Although there are times, when I see just how dirty Blue's white legs are, that I regret not getting a second black. No doubt Jazz is just as dirty, but my motto is "if you can't see it, it isn't there."


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

JudyD said:


> my motto is "if you can't see it, it isn't there."


I am sooo guilty of this. I always feel like I need to bathe them both only when the white on Jasper's legs get too dark. Piper could be caked in dirt and I wouldn't feel nearly as bad because I cant see it!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I love the look of a rich red poodle (any size), but they are not so common in spoos. We do have to give credit to good breeders like Arreau who have done great things with getting good red spoo lines going. One of the reasons I guess they historically don't show well is that they often don't have black points and that is a major fault.

I also know some people who show in obedience who will only have blacks or whites because they think they are smarter, but I will confess one of the main reasons Lily and Javelin are both black is to hide the dirt. I'm with you on the if you can't see it, it isn't there school of thought JudyD and Coldbrew.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Reds can be shown in AKC conformation - no problem there. . However, the quality of reds compared to the older and more popular colors is just not the same, which is why understandably the other colors win more often. Breeders like NOLA and such are making a huge change in the quality of reds, but it takes time.


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## DreamAgility (Sep 2, 2013)

If it was my post you saw, let me explain. 
Reds can be very successful in the show ring, and Arreau Reds prove that. BUT, i have heard that reds have: soft coats, unstable temperments, and undesirable pigmentation in the lips and nose. Those are all things that AKC judges avoid. I am looking for A male to comliment my bitch, who is shy around new people, does have liver pigment, and a soft coat. BLACK AND SILVER are the best colors to correct her faultz. Reds are absolutely gorgeous and i would love to have one myself(they are one of my favorite colors) and Dreamer has a stunning red brother that nearly brings tears to my eyes with his beauty. However, he was un successful in the show ring due to not being able to co operate with the handler and judge, as well as i think his coat is soft. Now, if you get the perfect red male paired with the perfect cream bitch, you could end up with a beautiful litter. However, my female is not perfect, so I have to narrow it down to only silvers and blacks. If i cannot find black or silver, i would breed to a red. I love reds and i have seen them do well numerous times in the show ring, so it has nothing to do with the color, but the individual dog.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

To date there are 13 red standard AKC Champions and 2 red standard AKC Grand Champions. The breeders/owners of that small cluster of Champions are Farley's D with Cello and Chelsea, Lido's with Chili, Raquel, Piper, Velvet and Sunshine (I believe her name was), Lumiere with Marco who also has his Grand, Rebelstar with Scarlette, NOLA's with Antoinette and Rex who is the first puppy Champion and the only Bred by Exhibitor Champion and also a Grand Champion and Patriot with Joey and most recently Lola. It's worth noting that last year and this saw the addition of 4 of that number!

In Canada Arreau has red Canadian Champion Journey and Lumiere has ...I'm thinking of at least 3 and maybe up to 5/6 red Canadian Champions.

The number of apricot standards with AKC titles and Grand Champion titles and the number of Canadian Champions has grown noticeably in the past few years as well and that is a tribute to all the breeders diligently working with color.

For the best explanation of what is lacking in red and apricot blood lines, I'll borrow Del Dahl's explanation of "type". (It could be pointed out that croups slope and angles are lacking and both tail carriage and head carriage are non existent in most color - but I think type also goes a long way in encompassing those bred in faults.) In his book, and I'm going to paraphrase greatly, ok, he gives the examples of cows to explain type. A beef cow say vs a milk cow. Both are cows, but they look different. They are put together entirely different.

And I think that, in a broad stroke, explains the problem we color breeders face with the quality in our color. Instead of Arabians, with elegant lines and great carriage, our red and apricot is all to often more a plow horse. 

The problem isn't the coat, or the pigment - I've seen some very houndish reds with great black pigment, and in AKC, though I can't speak to the Canadian Kennel Club, liver pigment is accepted, black is preferred - or the temperament, though granted it is hard to be showy when you are a plow horse.

It's that they lack type. They don't carry their heads nor do they carry their tails (and by that I mean the tail needs to be upright - 12 o'clock - as opposed to 2 or 3 - which is in the head and in the structure.)

The coats are beautiful, though I've not seen one as dense as some blacks and whites, which can be incredibly brillo pad thick, we do have some decent coats.

And the black pigment so very striking.

Slowly but surely, with great effort by a handful of breeders, you are seeing outstanding quality in the color. Hopefully, there will be more and more to see.

Regards,

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

How do you even distinguish between red and apricot? This is a toy puppy from Dalin, and she calls him apricot, but I have seen much lighter colored poodles called red.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Tiny I think most apricots are pretty dark when they are puppies and they clear (like silvers almost) as they get older. Lots of people thought my mom's mpoo was a red when he was a puppy, but he is now three and unmistakably an apricot.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

DreamAgility said:


> If it was my post you saw, let me explain.


It was, and I didn't want to add clutter to your search which is why I didn't reply directly to that thread. I trusted that you had good reason to be seeking a particular color stud (even if that good reason was personal preference, as I think that's a totally fair reason!), and from your response and Tabatha's explanation I do think I understand. 

Thank you Tabatha for that detail - the use of types does make it much easier to understand. I do hope that by the time I'm ready for a new dog (many many years away I'm sure), the red breeders will have removed as many of the type-y faults as possible and there are lots of good breeders of reds to choose from 

And thank you everyone else as well!:act-up:

On a related color note - are brindles and sables showable in AKC conformation? I would assume no for brindles because the hair is two different colors at the skin, but from what i can recall off the top of my head sables are one color at the skin but the hair has darker tips.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

NOLA Standards said:


> To date there are 13 red standard AKC Champions and 2 red standard AKC Grand Champions. The breeders/owners of that small cluster of Champions are Farley's D with Cello and Chelsea, Lido's with Chili, Raquel, Piper, Velvet and Sunshine (I believe her name was), Lumiere with Marco who also has his Grand, Rebelstar with Scarlette, NOLA's with Antoinette and Rex who is the first puppy Champion and the only Bred by Exhibitor Champion and also a Grand Champion and Patriot with Joey and most recently Lola. It's worth noting that last year and this saw the addition of 4 of that number!
> 
> In Canada Arreau has red Canadian Champion Journey and Lumiere has ...I'm thinking of at least 3 and maybe up to 5/6 red Canadian Champions.
> 
> ...


Perfectly wonderful explanation. Thanks for saving me from floundering for a way to put it! Loving the Arabian vs plow horse comparison. All too true.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Coldbrew said:


> On a related color note - are brindles and sables showable in AKC conformation? I would assume no for brindles because the hair is two different colors at the skin, but from what i can recall off the top of my head sables are one color at the skin but the hair has darker tips.


Solid colors only, and brindle is not considered a solid color, although a silver brindle could potentially get away with it under the guise that the difference shades are due to be normal solid silver clearing process.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Tiny Poodles said:


> How do you even distinguish between red and apricot? This is a toy puppy from Dalin, and she calls him apricot, but I have seen much lighter colored poodles called red.
> View attachment 287001


When a red fades, it is still red. Reds are rust or golden hues. Apricots are more yellow or lemony. When you see them side by side, they are not the same tone at all.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

With red, not as much with apricot though it does to a degree, it is going to fade.

ALL RED FADES. A discussion for another day, but if you think you know a breeder whose color does not fade, I'll point you in the direction of a couple of products they are likely using :angel2: 

And some red, specifically the ones that are the "deepest darkest red" of pups - which my vision sees as almost a brown red - will fade to the color of a paper sack/bag. It's still attractive, but not even close to the color it once was.... My Baroness faded like that.

So, typically, we call the pups a color when they are young. And, really, I don't get hung up on it. If there is obvious red you can say red all you want. Lemon is apricot - orange is apricot - orange with fire (more like the color of a flame) I call red. That was Annie's color, IMO.

Ah - and I forgot Rogan - which means I need to check and see if Lido's Sunshine was a Ch - as there could be an addition to the number of red standard AKC Champions, one of the early ones, and I left him out of the AKC red standard CH list. Apologies to Rogan and his owners and breeder!!!

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> When a red fades, it is still red. Reds are rust or golden hues. Apricots are more yellow or lemony. When you see them side by side, they are not the same tone at all.



So just curious, what would you call that puppy that I posted. It looks red to me, but what do I know....


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

*The Complete Poodle...*

Much like Poodle Variety - Del Dahl's book is The Complete Poodle and is just something you should have/read.

If you don't already have it, get it. Amazon has them. You will enjoy it and learn from reading it. He's an engaging and informative writer and he has also been in poodles most of his life so he's a great teacher. He's also a regular contributor to PV.



Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

From that photo I would say red. From another photo I might say apricot.

Which is why you and your breeder should decide. :amen: Light and quality affects how we can see color. And photos will cast your poodle in different lights - and computer monitors too (I don't have the most expensive laptop! ha) some which may be the true color and others that don't show it as well.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

NOLA Standards said:


> From that photo I would say red. From another photo I might say apricot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is true, my silver and apricot always looked different in different pictures.
My breeder says that she does not do red, she only does apricot, she isn't even sure if there is such a thing as a red toy in this country, so she calls them all apricot.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Solid colors only, and brindle is not considered a solid color, although a silver brindle could potentially get away with it under the guise that the difference shades are due to be normal solid silver clearing process.


CharismaticMillie, is sable not considered a solid color? I'm curious too.


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## DreamAgility (Sep 2, 2013)

Zooeysmom, Sable is cream or apricot with black tipping on the hairs.
Here is an example of a male I was considering using to breeding.
Our Sire's - Delovely Famous Standard Poodle's
There are also sables on this forum. They are clearly not one color. Always at least TWO shades. AKC clearly states in the breed standard that the colors must be solid.
"The coat is an even and solid color at the skin"{page 2 of http://cdn.akc.org/Poodle.pdf}


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Thank you, DreamAgility


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

DreamAgility said:


> AKC clearly states in the breed standard that the colors must be solid.
> "The coat is an even and solid color at the skin"{page 2 of http://cdn.akc.org/Poodle.pdf}


That's what I meant when I'd first asked about sables and brindles. Brindles are two colors at the skin, but sables are a even/solid color *at the skin* (usually apricot or white from what i remember). So technically, they SHOULD be able to be shown in AKC, right?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Coldbrew said:


> That's what I meant when I'd first asked about sables and brindles. Brindles are two colors at the skin, but sables are a even/solid color *at the skin* (usually apricot or white from what i remember). So technically, they SHOULD be able to be shown in AKC, right?


I don't believe so. It's not considered a solid color.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

zooeysmom said:


> CharismaticMillie, is sable not considered a solid color? I'm curious too.


Correct - not a solid color.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I don't believe so. It's not considered a solid color.


hmm. that is very interesting to be. I have absolutely no experience in showing whatsoever, but solely from reading the poodle breed standard, the wording does seem to qualify sables. they're obviously not a solid color throughout the coat, but they are an even and solid color at the skin.

i might contact akc/pca to see what their reasoning is behind excluding sables in that case. obviously brindles/phantoms/partis/merles(not _really_ pure bred poodles i know but still registered as pure poodles) do not fit the breed standard as it is currently written. the semantics of the wording do seem to include sables though, while they clearly don't include reds, which are allowed to be shown.

fascinating stuff, i think.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Coldbrew said:


> hmm. that is very interesting to be. I have absolutely no experience in showing whatsoever, but solely from reading the poodle breed standard, the wording does seem to qualify sables. they're obviously not a solid color throughout the coat, but they are an even and solid color at the skin.
> 
> i might contact akc/pca to see what their reasoning is behind excluding sables in that case. obviously brindles/phantoms/partis/merles(not _really_ pure bred poodles i know but still registered as pure poodles) do not fit the breed standard as it is currently written. the semantics of the wording do seem to include sables though, while they clearly don't include reds, which are allowed to be shown.
> 
> fascinating stuff, i think.


I think maybe you're reading into the semantics a little too much or in the wrong way. The reason it is mentioned that the coat should be a solid color at the skin is that a cream, or an apricot, or a cafe, or silver beige, or a silver or blue, etc. can have some darker guard hairs in their coat. Or the ears may not have faded out yet. We have faded solid colors and it is understood and accepted that there may be some variation in how much a color has cleared at any given point in time. This is allowed per the standard. However, if you were to shave these dogs down, you would see one even, solid color. 

If you shave down a brindle with a 10 blade, the dog still has stripes. 

That is, until its stripes start to fade. It's been said that some silvers are brindles whose stripes have faded out. And just because red isn't specifically mentioned doesn't mean it can't be shown. Any solid color can be shown in AKC. Some other countries do have restrictions on some of the dilute colors, but not the AKC.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I think maybe you're reading into the semantics a little too much


Oh, I'm quite sure I am, but my point is that the breed standard is supposed to be what is used to determine if a dog is or isn't disqualified from showing. And I've said that I understand why brindles don't fit into the standard, but if you shaved a sable down with the same #10 blade it would be a solid color at the skin, so it should "technically" (aka possibly reading too much into the semantics, but still following them to the letter), they should be able to be shown. The darker guard hairs (and I'd imagine darker ears on some reds and apricots as well?) does make sense as well.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Solid color coat. With allowances for the clearing that some solid colors do, though I and likely others of us have seen silvers dq'd for suspicion of parti.

Solid color coat eliminates brindle.

Solid color coat includes red and orange and brown and blue and black and café au lait and cream and all varying Solid Color shades in between. 

As red wasn't a color in standards until the 80s, and rarely passed the ring entrance until more recently, I can see it being left out. And, for expediency, I can see not listing every color once you've said SOLID... I think the clarification for cream/silver/blue is nice, but a little "See Joe. See Sue." It (being the breed standard) is certainly, in the area of color description, not able to be bent to accommodate.



Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Coldbrew said:


> Oh, I'm quite sure I am, but my point is that the breed standard is supposed to be what is used to determine if a dog is or isn't disqualified from showing. And I've said that I understand why brindles don't fit into the standard, but if you shaved a sable down with the same #10 blade it would be a solid color at the skin, so it should "technically" (aka possibly reading too much into the semantics, but still following them to the letter), they should be able to be shown. The darker guard hairs (and I'd imagine darker ears on some reds and apricots as well?) does make sense as well.


I know of at least one sable that passed being shown in AKC for quite some time before finally being DQd. The owner still maintains that the dog is a silver beige (which is impossible because the dog has black pigment) but the dog is sable. He actually won best bred-by in show at a local poodle specialty. However, the dog is not a solid color and was ultimately excused.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

And just to add to the confusion some of the older books talk about "black born apricots" that hold their color the best in their sections on apricots. Now we know that those dogs were probably sables with an apricot under color. but it shows that at least at one time some sables were shown.


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