# Breeder suggestions around Calgary



## cbrand

Please do a search on this board on both Paris and Bijou for previous discussion about these breeders.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Ditto what cbrand said!!

Strathglen Poodles is near Calgary, They have one of my red babies, but normally breed silvers, whites and blues. June is a show breeder. I believe they have a litter on the ground right now.


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## Dogsinstyle

I took a look at Poodle Quest. All I can do is scratch my head.
Carole


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## plumcrazy

Dogsinstyle said:


> I took a look at Poodle Quest. All I can do is scratch my head.
> Carole


I agree, Carole, but maybe McSandd would like to know why... I'm still new to learning as much about poodles as possible, but some of the things I noticed were the improper color points on the apricots (on every single one of them that I looked at!) and that there were lots and lots (and lots) of WORDS on every single page that didn't say much of importance. They also used the word "adopt" for someone wishing to purchase a puppy (I really only think the word adopt should be used for rescues and shelters - but that's me!)

There was reference to extensive (and expensive) health testing, but nothing specific about the tests and which tests have been conducted. I just kind of got an "ewwwy" feeling from surfing their site - nothing there that impressed me... (and the picture of the whelping "box" made me think of an oven for some reason :scared I'm sure there were many more things that the poodle experts on the forum could point out - but this is my first impression...

It's good that you're doing your research now, McSandd - take your time and learn all you can about responsible, reasonable breeding programs before you take the leap!! Good luck!


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## Dogsinstyle

OK Plumcrazy, WTF does this mean-
"Pedigrees are examined so that at a minimum of fifty generations are placed between the Sire and Dam. "


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## plumcrazy

Dogsinstyle said:


> OK Plumcrazy, WTF does this mean-
> "Pedigrees are examined so that at a minimum of fifty generations are placed between the Sire and Dam. "


That they're breeding really, really old dogs (to really, really young ones???) :lol: ound:

I think they're trying to say they don't line breed??? I guess after I read it again (and I did see that sentence the first time I went to the site...) it really doesn't make much sense, huh?? Do you remember in my first post on this thread where I said they used lots and lots (and lots) of words but there was really NOTHING said? :wacko:


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## cbrand

Poodle Quest... wow..

I don't think I've ever seen such blather on a breeder's web site before. Really, it defies belief. 

Good thing that they don't want to show their dogs because apparently Ancient Breeding techniques and all that research still didn't keep them from breeding a Brown to a Cream and getting Poodles with disqualifying pigment. 

Frankly anyone who buys a Poodle from them gets what they deserve.


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## roxy25

I sent you a bunch a links lol hope I did not over welm you. I wish you luck with finding the right breeder.


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## McSandd

Thanks!! 
I cannot believe how big of mistakes I was making when looking. Thank you everyone for your suggestions. It feels like I am back to square one :doh: but with a better foundation to look. 

Maybe I will take my parents' dog to the dog park and stalk spoo owners


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## Harley_chik

Hey that's why this forum rocks! I still check w/ my peeps here anytime I find a breeder I think I like. I've learned so much on what to look for but it seems like they always bring a new perspective. I'm sure Roxy sent you some really good links.


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## McSandd

Harley_chik said:


> Hey that's why this forum rocks! I still check w/ my peeps here anytime I find a breeder I think I like. I've learned so much on what to look for but it seems like they always bring a new perspective. I'm sure Roxy sent you some really good links.


Thanks! Roxy did and so did some others


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## neVar

Larkspur poodles is fabulous to deal with- they have alitter just born or about to that i was looking into from their stud up on their site. gorgeous dogs- super nice people to deal with the bit i talked to them (and the owner of the bitch) 


saransil- i haven't talked to them but looked at their website durin gmy search a couple months ago and they were on my list of 'talk toos' 

kandask- i saw one of their poodles in february at a show- very nice stuff- nice to talk to- definatly a breeder i'd inquire into 

look through the poodle club of canada POODLE CLUB OF CANADA 
the national speciality is in calgary on july 15th- DEFINATLY go talk to breeders there- make a list to meet there talk to them before hand and get a chance to see their stock in person and see what they are like  
National Specialty 2010


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## StandardLvr

I know this is bumping, but I was really bothered by the comments on here. My one poodle I bought from Poodle Quest back in 2008, and I am quite satisfied. She's a red, with no "disqualifying pigment".

For one thing, I agree about the color's of the cremes and cafe's. They're not Apricots. But that's about the only thing I can find worth complaining about.
If anyone actually read the words in the site, they're not blithering. They're useful information, better than any vet site I come across.

So no one knows what fifty generations apart means? It means that the dog is not bred with any of its relatives for fifty generations or higher. Frankly, I wouldn't want to know my dog is bred with its grandpa.

So yeah, my two cents. I find it disturbing when people don't actually do some research or even talk to the breeder before they complain about them. So I guess I got what I deserved when I bought Destyn, right?


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## Dogsinstyle

"So no one knows what fifty generations apart means? It means that the dog is not bred with any of its relatives for fifty generations or higher. Frankly, I wouldn't want to know my dog is bred with its grandpa."

OK. I'll bite. I will gaurantee that I can find the same dog twice within 50 generations of any poodle that poodle quest owns, or has bred together.
Want to take me up on that? Send in the pedigree of yours, or any of thier dogs.
Carole


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## Olie

^^ I take your word on it^^


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## StandardLvr

Dogsinstyle said:


> "So no one knows what fifty generations apart means? It means that the dog is not bred with any of its relatives for fifty generations or higher. Frankly, I wouldn't want to know my dog is bred with its grandpa."
> 
> OK. I'll bite. I will gaurantee that I can find the same dog twice within 50 generations of any poodle that poodle quest owns, or has bred together.
> Want to take me up on that? Send in the pedigree of yours, or any of thier dogs.
> Carole


Eh, yeah - how would you like to prove your theory?


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## Dogsinstyle

Easy. In addition to having the pedigree database on my pc, I can look the pedigree's up on PHR. I'll go a step futher, and say I will easily find 2 dogs mulitple times in a 10 generation pedigree- I sure don't need 50 generations to do it.
Carole


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## StandardLvr

You can search pedigrees online with the CKC, but frankly I'm not about to send you the full pedigree, payed for mind you. So then, you have never heard of fifty generation breeding.
Not that anxious to prove it to you.


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## Dogsinstyle

Endless Odyssey's Montana Rouge
In 3 minutes, I found Croix Prince Ryan at least 10 times in the 1st 10 generations.
I could go on and on, but there are many many more.
What this breeder could say, if she/he were interested in making sense...
"We try to outcross as much as possible in order to diversify our lines".
Not some crazy mumbo jumbo that is an impossibility. 
It would be amazing for anyone to trace their dogs back 50 generations.
Highly unlikely to find any you can go further than 30-35 generations.
Carole


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## Keithsomething

can you explain it to us then?
:]]


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## StandardLvr

Do you understand that fifty generations is between the _sire_ and the _dam_?


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## tintlet

I think you need to explain your 50 generations thing....I sure don't understand it


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## StandardLvr

For one thing, dogsinstyles' comment on the generations is quite a ways back. Secondly, (if anyone read Poodle Quest's webpage), everyone would understand that the fifty generations is between Poodle Quest's female and her sire. Everyone understand now?

EDIT: I'm sure that Poodle Quest would explain it to you much better than I if you contacted them..


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## tintlet

so why can't you list the names of the parents and let someone go look up the pedigree?
If its' true that you can go 50 generations, then they have some very unusual dogs.

Breeders that don't list names seem to have something to hide


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## StandardLvr

tintlet said:


> so why can't you list the names of the parents and let someone go look up the pedigree?
> If its' true that you can go 50 generations, then they have some very unusual dogs.
> 
> Breeders that don't list names seem to have something to hide


Who said anyone refused to list the names? And by "unusual dogs", please explain.
Please, for the sake of my sanity, contact the breeder about the pedigree. I don't feel it's my right to say it right here.

And do I look like a breeder to anyone? I was just defending my dog's breeder..


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## Dogsinstyle

I don't understand the concept of 50 generations between sire and dam. Generations are quantified in first, second, third, and so on. A sire and dam is the first generation on a dogs pedigree, the grandparents are the second. The concept you are talking about does not exist.
In 10 generations, there are 2046 available spaces for individual dogs in a pedigree. Usually there are an average of 700 unique dogs in 10 generations.
I know of one dog that has 1094 unique dogs out of 2046, there may be a few with more, I'd love to see those dogs.....
Carole


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## StandardLvr

Your point, please?


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## Dogsinstyle

My point is that this statement is utter nonsense.
Do you understand that fifty generations is between the sire and the dam?
Carole


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## StandardLvr

So not willing to contact the breeder? Okay. I'm done explaining this to you.


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## tintlet

StandardLvr,
I do understand you trying to defend the breeder of your puppy. but you yourself refused to give Dogsinstyle the pedigree of your dog. even if you give her the parents she could probably look up the relationship between your dogs Sire and Dam.

With the bottle necking of the breed, its very rare to find poodles that are not related in the first 10 generations.

Anyone can write anything they want on a website, but that doesn't make it "true". 

also, nice color on the poodle in your avatar


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## Dogsinstyle

Rare is an understatement. In order to be completely unrelated for 10 generations, there has to be 2046 unique dogs in a pedigree. No such standard poodle exists.
Period.
carole


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## cbrand

I don't think Standardlvr understands. You don't have to "give" us the registration papers. Just tell us the registered name of your Poodle's dam and sire. Simple. We will look it up for you. 

I know it can be hard to hear negative things about the breeder of the dog you love so much, but seriously, the Poodle Quest web site is filled with double speak and in some case flat out misinformation. 

Example:
_There are under five genetic disease that the Pure Bred Registered Standard Poodle carries _

They fail to mention Bloat, Addisons, JRD, CAH, Epilepsy etc.


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## Winnow

Well when I read there homepage I see lots of promises but no hard facts :S 
When I check out "our poodles" there is nothing said about there dogs, there pedigrees , there health tests and so on 

StandardLvr you can look at my page if you like, there are just facts there no promises. And you see behind all of the health tests there is a link, and that link will guide you too the papers of that health test.

Also with Charly's champion titles, you can see the papers from the kennel club confirming that he is indeed a champion.

Winnow Standard Poodle - Iceland

If you are doing good things you should not have to hide them with some fancy words. That no one understands. Just state the facts.

I am not saying that all homepage's should be like mine but you get all the info you need when looking at it


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## jak

tintlet said:


> also, nice color on the poodle in your avatar


Lol, I don't know if anyone realised... but StandardLvr's avatar is infact, a head shot of the logo of this forum 
Taken from here Standard Poodles from Shangri-La Standard Poodles

StandardLvr, as cbrand said, all you have to do is tell us the registered names of the dogs


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## cbrand

jak said:


> Lol, I don't know if anyone realised... but StandardLvr's avatar is infact, a head shot of the logo of this forum
> Taken from here Standard Poodles from Shangri-La Standard Poodles


Well Ok then. 

Jak, darling, you are so adorably clever. Wouldn't you like to come and visit us in the States? I'd be more than happy to put you up in Colorado.


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## PaddleAddict

jak said:


> Lol, I don't know if anyone realised... but StandardLvr's avatar is infact, a head shot of the logo of this forum
> Taken from here Standard Poodles from Shangri-La Standard Poodles
> 
> StandardLvr, as cbrand said, all you have to do is tell us the registered names of the dogs


Oh my.... hwell:


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## tintlet

That is so funny!!! Good work jak!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

jak said:


> Lol, I don't know if anyone realised... but StandardLvr's avatar is infact, a head shot of the logo of this forum
> Taken from here Standard Poodles from Shangri-La Standard Poodles
> 
> StandardLvr, as cbrand said, all you have to do is tell us the registered names of the dogs


Jak, I swear, if you do not get into detective work, you are missing your calling!!


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## Olie

I was thinking the same thing. Jak could get a reality show! 

I think this thread is interesting though wish I knew more about Olie.


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## spoospirit

_oh my!_


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## jester's mom

jak said:


> Lol, I don't know if anyone realised... but StandardLvr's avatar is infact, a head shot of the logo of this forum
> Taken from here Standard Poodles from Shangri-La Standard Poodles
> 
> StandardLvr, as cbrand said, all you have to do is tell us the registered names of the dogs


LOL.... Jak, you are just amazing! Yep, you need to come to the states! Great detective work!

Ummmmm, makes one wonder "who" StandardLvr is????? You don't think.... hwell:


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## StandardLvr

Wow.. someone finally realized. I got this avatar made for me in a graphics section on another forum, actually.
It's not a picture of my dog - that's allowed, isn't it?
But really, could we close this thread now? I can't believe how "mature" adults are actually acting like "nit-picking" adolescents here... hmm..


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## plumcrazy

StandardLvr said:


> Wow.. someone finally realized. I got this avatar made for me in a graphics section on another forum, actually.
> It's not a picture of my dog - that's allowed, isn't it?


I don't know... did you get permission from the person who this dog belongs to? The owner may have a problem with it (or maybe not...) I know I wouldn't be too happy if someone lifted a picture of MY dog and used it as THEIR avatar on a public forum, but maybe Shangi La doesn't care?? That's your responsibility to find out, I guess.




StandardLvr said:


> But really, could we close this thread now? I can't believe how "mature" adults are actually acting like "nit-picking" adolescents here... hmm..


Uuuhhh... I don't see anything on this thread that would cause me, as a moderator to close it... the only possible immature actions I can see here is someone perhaps pretending to be someone they're not - and that has happened enough on this forum for the members to be rightfully gunshy.

As our administrator has said on another rather heated thread:



poodleadm said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Sorry I'm late to the party. Lots of things to read in this thread but let me address one particular issue that was brought up.
> 
> The Moderators of this community have volunteered their time to help keep things in order and while they have a number of things to look out for, one thing that is not a part of their "job description" is to sit around and move, edit, delete or close every regretful thread/post that members make. Don't get me wrong -- all of us have the ability to do this from a technical standpoint but to put it in layman's term, it is NOT our responsibility to clean up after your mess.
> 
> I think we've talked about this before but if I didn't, let me say it again. The internet is NO different than other forms of communication in terms of expressing your thoughts and opinions. Ask yourself this: If you and I had a face to face conversation about my cooking and you told me how horrible it was (whether you said it intentionally or not), can you just "take back" what you said? Obviously not. In that regards, each of us should hold ourselves to the same standards on the internet as we do in face to face communications. That is, think before you speak or write. If you happen to post it and you have remorse about it 2 hours later, we're not here to help you remove your comments. Take ownership of it and make amends if you have to. It has worked wonders for me.


So... that being said (again) if ANYONE regrets a post they've made on this thread, they are MORE than welcome to "take ownership of it and make amends" if they wish! 

Have a nice day!


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## spoospirit

StandardLvr said:


> Wow.. someone finally realized. I got this avatar made for me in a graphics section on another forum, actually.
> It's not a picture of my dog - that's allowed, isn't it?
> But really, could we close this thread now? I can't believe how "mature" adults are actually acting like "nit-picking" adolescents here... hmm..


_If it were my poodle that I had put my heart and soul into in my breeding program, I would have a big problem with finding out that someone lifted the image and used it as their avatar. It is definite misrepresentation of who you are. This is generally frowned upon.

My advice to you is to contact Shangri-la and ask if it is alright for you to use the image of their poodle here._


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## Poodle Quest

(Copied and pasted from my opening thread).


Thank you for your kind response, life is good! We love horses as well, our youngest daughter rides a wonderful old retired race horse in the 4H club, and my husband adjusts (Chiropractic care) horses and dogs. Being around Standards and horses makes us better people. 

I wanted to write you all; a family that we placed an adopted (rescued) Poodle with has kept me 'in the loop' on the threads on Poodle Quest for the past few days. She has herself quite stressed now; first on defending us, then on her avatar. Well, I can't speak on her behalf, though we all here care for her and her family, and wish she had not added to this forum. Though we placed this rescued poodle with her family, it is not a Poodle Quest puppy, yet we support it and her family as if it is one, for the life time of the Poodle. I did, however, want to write you myself, and thought it time to respond to comments written about us with Poodle Quest. We found constructive criticism, (though had to weed past some swear words to find it, as well as our own discomfort at being bumped at!) and made changes to our site. Thanks for 'heads up' where we could improve.

I don' know about the 'blithering' part suggested about our writing on the web pages, thats my stuff. I wordsmith for a living, it is just 'squirmy' to handle. So far, we have never heard that from anyone, and we take calls from everyone, anywhere, anytime, and offer any information we can give them on training, Poodle Care, etc. of our own time, we just love the Standard this much. 

As to the diseases, we do mention them, on our 'Poodle Breed' and 'eat et al' pages. Don't agree that Bloat is an 'innate disease' to Standards, though.

Ah, the 'Ancient Breeding' term. Well, I did change the 50 gen to 'numerous'; this is based on our European breeding program; and we are heading to Germany this year for a new girl to breed to our two boys. 50 gen. refers to each dogs parentage, 25 on each side, separate from each other. We don't list our pedigees; just like puppies photos, we believe that these are personal to each new puppy owner. We are truly blessed when we can say that every litter is fully sold before our Dam whelps. 

Integrity is only solid when it is clear. I hold integrity as a hallmark in my relationship wih God, my family, our Poodle families, and you, as critics. 

I need to leave for a few hours, now; will check back later. I am sure I missed some of the remarks you all made, however, if you feel that more must be questioned, I am both open and welcome you to do so.


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## PaddleAddict

StandardLvr said:


> Wow.. someone finally realized. I got this avatar made for me in a graphics section on another forum, actually.
> It's not a picture of my dog - that's allowed, isn't it?
> But really, could we close this thread now? I can't believe how "mature" adults are actually acting like "nit-picking" adolescents here... hmm..


Taking someone else's photo from the Internet and presenting it as your own is at least disingenuous and most illegal (I have no idea where it falls in an instance like this). Regardless, it doesn't make you look very credible at thi point, IMO.


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## McSandd

Hello everyone,

I know I have not posted on this thread in a bit but wanted to restate some of what was in my original post. When we visited Poodle Quest we found a very nice woman and her 3 poodles. All 3 poodles were AMAZING. Amazing to the point where my dog disliking husband actually agreed that poodles may be the breed for us. 

For me, I felt that I may have been seeing just another example of the poodle breed. This is why I came on here asking if anyone had any dealings with Poodle Quest or the other websites I had found. 

I have received much advice for this forum and I really appreciate it but I must admit that I feel the negative direction this thread has taken is inappropriate.


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## Keithsomething

o.o
it hasn't taken a negative turn IMO

its a discussion about a breeder who doesn't list the names of her breeding dogs on her site...it isn't negative or nasty go read some of nasty threads...and you'll see this is very tame for what it can become
((people are holding back in this case ALOT more than they have for more reputable breeders))


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## spoospirit

McSandd said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I know I have not posted on this thread in a bit but wanted to restate some of what was in my original post. When we visited Poodle Quest we found a very nice woman and her 3 poodles. All 3 poodles were AMAZING. Amazing to the point where my dog disliking husband actually agreed that poodles may be the breed for us.
> 
> For me, I felt that I may have been seeing just another example of the poodle breed. This is why I came on here asking if anyone had any dealings with Poodle Quest or the other websites I had found.
> 
> I have received much advice for this forum and I really appreciate it but I must admit that I feel the negative direction this thread has taken is inappropriate.


_Hi McSandd, I do not know Poodle Quest or anything about them so I will not offer any advice regarding them. I am sure that your description of them is exactly what you experienced. 

I do find it unusual that a breeder not list their dogs and their pedigrees and tests results on their site. I have visited many, many sites and nearly all have these things posted as informed buyers are looking for this information. We want to see photos of the dam and the sire and something about their accomplishments. We definitely want to see the results of their health testing and be able to go to look up their pedigree to see what is behind them.

I also find it odd that a breeder will not disclose the name of the dam and sire she has bred. I can't think of any reason why this should be a secret from people who are trying to get to know them and about their dogs. One of the first things my sister and I do when researching dogs is to check their pedigree.

They don't post pics of their puppies. Personally, I would like to see what past pups looked like. I like to see puppies being themselves in pics or videos. I prefer to be able to look at the offspring when I am looking for a future puppy. I would be more likely to move on to breeders who post photos of the puppies so I can see their face, form, and color.

I do understand the frustration of those who have asked about the names of the dogs so that they could look at the pedigrees on them. It is hard to offer any advice if you don't know a breeder and their stock and can't even take a look at a pedigree.

Just some of my personal preferences when looking for a puppy._

_I wish you luck in finding the right puppy/dog that fits in with your family._


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## Poodle Quest

Hello, may I respond to your statements? We all love Standards. We all sell Standards. Perhaps we are looking at the way we each sell them differently. For us, we do not need to post pictures of puppies when born, they are all, all of them, spoken for already. Their pictures go to their families. All the pictures are posted on our Pictures page. Always have been. I wonder if anyone has actually looked at them? There are many photo's of our Dam, and her offspring, and some of rescue pups; all of which we post because we are given permission, which we ask for. Our way is to consider each puppy as a family member to each Poodle Quest Family, and we treat the family, and the puppy, this way. 

How we actually sell our puppies is, after all, our own way, and our own business, yes? In that we do not post the information you ask for, such as Pedigrees and health testing is not important to you looking in, is it? It is important if you are buying from us. Only then. Any one who calls us, and who we meet with, knows what dogs we breed together, their pedigrees, health testing. When we accept a family, they have full disclosure. 
Is that business? Well, our way. We are not searching for buyers, we are blessed with amazing, fabulous families that come to us, and purchase a Poodle. 

I suggest that we link arms. Call up to task those who 'puppy mill', or cheat the CKC or AKC, or steal, or abuse, or seek to malign others. They do deserve to be hauled up under public scrutiny. Not each other.


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## jak

cbrand said:


> Well Ok then.
> 
> Jak, darling, you are so adorably clever. Wouldn't you like to come and visit us in the States? I'd be more than happy to put you up in Colorado.


Lol haha thanks 

Yes!! It would be so awesome to go to the states!! Yes please!!
Not enough poodles around here!! 
Anyway, I plan to go to PCA in 3/4/5 years.. so maybe see some of you guys there !!


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## Poodle Quest

Ah, it is after midnight. Let me clarify, Spoospirit; you state that we have no pictures of puppies on our website. I did reply to that a moment ago, but when re-reading it, I am not really clear on WHEN the pictures are posted. Please refer to our 'Poodle Pictures' on our site. All photos (at least 78) are of our dogs, offspring, even a rescue or two that we make our own even once 'sold' (adopted) to another family. We always support them, once we 'make them our own'. They are on our web page with permission, long after the puppies are born, and after they go home to their families; this is simply our way. We have never had to display puppy pictures in order to find a family to buy (adopt) the puppy.


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## Poodle Quest

Hello Cbrand. I thought I would mention to you that that 'cream' is a cafe, and is the son of the mother, who is a Silver Beige. At least, that is what I think you are talking about. We do not, consequently, breed creams. Though it is an easy mistake to make unless you look at the ears on the photo of the 'cream', as Cafe does fade to look like somewhat like a cream. No apricots in photo's. All browns, blacks, cafe, Siver Beige and Red.

Took off the whelping box photo's too! Its an amazing box, all made of baltic fur, and has a puppy door below the big 'hobbit door'. However, if one of you thinks it looks like an oven. ..... well, that is constructive criticism!


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## jak

StandardLvr said:


> I know this is bumping, but I was really bothered by the comments on here. My one poodle I bought from Poodle Quest back in 2008, and I am quite satisfied. She's a red, with no "disqualifying pigment".


But... ummm...

Poodle Quest herself said that this was not a dog she bred...
looking at her website.. all the apricot/creams have liver pigment...


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## jak

Poodle Quest said:


> Hello Cbrand. I thought I would mention to you that that 'cream' is a cafe, and is the son of the mother, who is a Silver Beige. At least, that is what I think you are talking about. We do not, consequently, breed creams. Though it is an easy mistake to make unless you look at the ears on the photo of the 'cream', as Cafe does fade to look like somewhat like a cream. No apricots in photo's. All browns, blacks, cafe, Siver Beige and Red.
> 
> Took off the whelping box photo's too! Its an amazing box, all made of baltic fur, and has a puppy door below the big 'hobbit door'. However, if one of you thinks it looks like an oven. ..... well, that is constructive criticism!


Ummm.. not sure quite what you mean...

Cream is a part of the apricot/red/white spectrum...

Café au Lait is part of the Brown/SilverBeige spectrum..

Silverbeige is a brown that was born brown and silvered... and Café is sort of a washed out brown...


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## Olie

I thought I seen apricots - how are the apricots pigment disqualified?


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## plumcrazy

Olie said:


> I thought I seen apricots - how are the apricots pigment disqualified?


The correct pigment for apricot is black - black nose, eye rims, lips... but if the pigment is liver, that is a disqualifying fault.

ETA: I just looked up the AKC standard and the liver pigment isn't disqualifying (just undesireable) on apricots, but it is a major fault on creams...

"Color 
The coat is an even and solid color at the skin. In blues, grays, silvers, browns, cafe-au-laits, apricots and creams the coat may show varying shades of the same color. This is frequently present in the somewhat darker feathering of the ears and in the tipping of the ruff. While clear colors are definitely preferred, such natural variation in the shading of the coat is not to be considered a fault. Brown and cafe-au-lait Poodles have liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, dark toenails and dark amber eyes. Black, blue, gray, silver, cream and white Poodles have black noses, eye-rims and lips, black or self colored toenails and very dark eyes. In the apricots while the foregoing coloring is preferred, liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable. Major fault: color of nose, lips and eye-rims incomplete, or of wrong color for color of dog."


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## Olie

plumcrazy said:


> The correct pigment for apricot is black - black nose, eye rims, lips... but if the pigment is liver, that is a disqualifying fault.
> 
> ETA: I just looked up the AKC standard and the liver pigment isn't disqualifying (just undesireable) on apricots, but it is a major fault on creams...
> 
> "Color
> The coat is an even and solid color at the skin. In blues, grays, silvers, browns, cafe-au-laits, apricots and creams the coat may show varying shades of the same color. This is frequently present in the somewhat darker feathering of the ears and in the tipping of the ruff. While clear colors are definitely preferred, such natural variation in the shading of the coat is not to be considered a fault. Brown and cafe-au-lait Poodles have liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, dark toenails and dark amber eyes. Black, blue, gray, silver, cream and white Poodles have black noses, eye-rims and lips, black or self colored toenails and very dark eyes. In the apricots while the foregoing coloring is preferred, liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable. Major fault: color of nose, lips and eye-rims incomplete, or of wrong color for color of dog."


Correct!


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## Poodle Quest

On a note of interest; all of our Silver Beige puppies display 'rasberry' colored pads right at birth onward, and have wee white hairs poking between the toes, identifiable most easily within the first month. Their coat is coarser than our Browns, as well. The Silver Beige are not the same shade of brown, either, the silvering shows up after the first 18 months, though they tend to keep 'points', on hocks, head, ears, tail. I really do find this colour gorgeous.


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## cbrand

Under your poodle pictures, you have a picture titled PQ3montholdcafe. This is a picture of a Cream (Apricot?) puppy with liver pigment, not a Cafe puppy. A definitive test of course would be to get a color DNA test done. A Brown, Cafe, Silver Beige Poodle would be a bbEE, bbEe. A Cream or Apricot with liver pigment would be a bbee. 

Cafe and Silver Beige puppies are born Brown and clear over time. Here is a link to my Delilah who 15 months old. Under that show coat she is really a Cafe (bad Brown?). Her rosettes and now the top of her bracelets show her true color which has a pinkish/taupe hue to it. http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/7145-delilah-her-continental-may-2010-a.html

Below are some pictures of Shane, the top Mini Poodle dog in the US last year. He is a very light Silver Beige. He is shown as a puppy in the group picture. The picture of the Standards on the rock shows Delilah at age 7 months.


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## spoospirit

Poodle Quest said:


> Ah, it is after midnight. Let me clarify, Spoospirit; you state that we have no pictures of puppies on our website. I did reply to that a moment ago, but when re-reading it, I am not really clear on WHEN the pictures are posted. Please refer to our 'Poodle Pictures' on our site. All photos (at least 78) are of our dogs, offspring, even a rescue or two that we make our own even once 'sold' (adopted) to another family. We always support them, once we 'make them our own'. They are on our web page with permission, long after the puppies are born, and after they go home to their families; this is simply our way. We have never had to display puppy pictures in order to find a family to buy (adopt) the puppy.


_I did try to look at the photos. Unfortunately, it took several minutes to get to just #20 of the loading. It would have taken quite some time to wait for the rest to load before I could view them. I do not know if this is a problem on my end or yours. Perhaps the images are too large, thus requiring a long loading time?

I did look at the two videos. The one of the adult spoo dancing loaded fine but the one of the puppies only loaded to the point where they got outside and would not load any further. I made several attempts to get it to load all the way without success. I don't have problem loading these things as a norm so maybe you should ask others if they are having the same problem. Not saying that isn't on this end._


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## Poodle Quest

Thank you for looking, and for the heads up.


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## Poodle Quest

cbrand said:


> Under your poodle pictures, you have a picture titled PQ3montholdcafe. This is a picture of a Cream (Apricot?) puppy with liver pigment, not a Cafe puppy. A definitive test of course would be to get a color DNA test done. A Brown, Cafe, Silver Beige Poodle would be a bbEE, bbEe. A Cream or Apricot with liver pigment would be a bbee.
> 
> Cafe and Silver Beige puppies are born Brown and clear over time. Here is a link to my Delilah who 15 months old. Under that show coat she is really a Cafe (bad Brown?). Her rosettes and now the top of her bracelets show her true color which has a pinkish/taupe hue to it. http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/7145-delilah-her-continental-may-2010-a.html
> 
> Below are some pictures of Shane, the top Mini Poodle dog in the US last year. He is a very light Silver Beige. He is shown as a puppy in the group picture. The picture of the Standards on the rock shows Delilah at age 7 months.


Thank you for the information. I spent an hour on phone with Ann Belle, the Chairman for Breed Standards of Canada, who is also secretary for the Poodle Club of Canada. She is a wealth trove of information, kind, and easy to talk with. I will continue to disclose to her regarding our breeding program, Breed Standards and genetic health, which are vitally important to us. 

As to colors, per her advice, our Silver Beige is a brown with a modifying gene, and an excellent color for her age. Our Cafe's, or what you may call Apricot, are all Cream, 'brown cream'. There is one of the five brown genes that carries the early greying gene, a modifying gene, that fades the brown coat, thus the 'silverbeige' of our Dam, who, these experts tell me, has an excellent brown coat color for her age (5 this year). The modifying gene of silver is present from years back when breeders were breeding Silver and Blue into bloodlines, and the Clubs were determining color names. 

Apricot coats stay the color of light orange throughout the coat, througout the dogs years. Ann Belle has been breeding Standards for 40 years, and works with Mary Jane Wier, who we are arranging to meet with.

Thank you all for your time and input.
Christianne.


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## cbrand

So you are saying that Montana is a Silver Beige? Ok, I'll buy that. I personally think she is darker than Silver Beige, but there is a good deal of interpretation when it comes to these dilute colors. When does Blue get so light it is Silver? When does Silver Beige get so dark it is Cafe? 

However, I still don't understand what you are saying about your Cream puppies and dogs who have liver colored pigment. These dogs are not Cafe.


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## Dogsinstyle

Montana is a typical faded brown. Silver-beige dogs have silver or silver beige in the immediate pedigree. I've been breeding browns for 9 years, and have had every shade from the darkest holding to the most faded. The only pups I've had that were sb, had silver or sb as a parent or grandparent. They clear just as silvers do, you can see it when you shave the face at 4 weeks.
Here is a pup by a sb sire, dam was blue with silver and brown parents.
I chronicled her color change.
The second pic is at 1 year.


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## cbrand

Dogsinstyle said:


> Here is a pup by a sb sire, dam was blue with silver and brown parents.
> I chronicled her color change.
> The second pic is at 1 year.


That is a lovely color! Shane, the Silver Beige I posted, is out of two Silver dogs who both carried a Brown gene.


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