# Concerned about training method



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Minnie said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been looking for an agility instructor and finally located one about 1.25 hrs south with Saturday classes. I was throughly enjoying everything the instructor was saying, personality, etc and then came the the concern... the entire facility uses on all dogs prong collars during training. She says this causes actual less potential damage than flat collars but I really don't see how...
> 
> ...


There is no reason for a prong collar in AGILITY training. Agility is done OFF LEASH.

Dogs are not all created equal. Their temperaments vary so widely that no single method or training tool can be used on all dogs.

Walk away.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Walk away indeed - Agility is all about off leash control. And the thought of a dog weraing any kind of slip collar during any kind of agility work makes my blood run cold - the potential for it getting caught on the equipment or a similar accident is just too great.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I have to agree with Tortise and FJM. 

The collar is not used in Agility . . . whatever type of collar it is. Even I, having no problem with Prong collars, see no reason why they need to be part of Agility training. So the type . . Martingale, Flat, Slip, Prong, or whatever . . cannot be an issue.

If these classes are the only ones available, I would try to come to some kind of accommodation with yr trainers. Failing that, is it possible to pay 'lip service' to the people who run the facility? If they absolutely insist, then maybe get their required collar and turn it inside out??? Or, since Prong collars are pretty much useless unless they are snug, buy one that's way too big so that it contacts the chest and not the neck??? 

Best of luck on yr training!


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## pap2labc (Jun 25, 2010)

I agree that prong collars have no place in agility training. Collars, period, have no place for me in agility training. My first agility dog was wrapping around a jump once during practice and her flat buckle collar got hooked on a jump cup. The jump came down and she bolted, taking part of the jump with her. There was now a scared dog racing around the field with a jump banging her on the head. I'm so lucky in that she loved agility enough to get over the incident, but now I don't run my dogs in collars at all. If we're doing a specific obstacle that requires me holding onto a collar then they wear it for that time only...but collars come off when we go back to more than one obstacle. This is a bit extreme, I know, and the vast majority of dogs never catch a collar. It was just too scary at the time. I can only imagine what it would have been like if she'd had a prong collar on!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Countryboy said:


> If they absolutely insist, then maybe get their required collar and turn it inside out??? Or, since Prong collars are pretty much useless unless they are snug, buy one that's way too big so that it contacts the chest and not the neck???
> 
> Best of luck on yr training!



A loose prong collar is dangerous. Rather then the prongs tipping inwards towards each other to pinch a fold of skin (the action of the collar when it is fit correctly), the prongs ill stab directly into the dog's neck (Yeouch!!!)

My question is HOW is the prong collar going to be used in AGILITY class? If the trainer has you take the dog by the lead and walk with it over obstacles, RUN AWAY from that class.

Obstacles are easy. Teaching your dog to follow your direction (not your lead) to target obstacles in the correct order is hard. I was lucky enough to take agility classes from a member of the USA world team (Anne Braue). You take a whole class of foundation skills before your dog touches equipment. It is an awesome class, learned so much and I'm hoping to have an agility dog in the future to do it all over again!


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

It might help if I explain a bit more about the class. The first 3 months are obedience, targeting, and contact training. Assuming the dog is ready then we'd move on to basic agility. 

In all class the the prong collar would be worn - dogs are not allowed inside the facility without - this was told to me in very strict terms. This would include teaching the obstacles as well and only after the dog is sufficient on all obstacles would off leash training begin.

Right now I'm looking for another trainer as I'm in on way comfortable of putting that type of collar on my 9 month old puppy. I don't want to make her do this I want her to want to do this as her play drive is huge!

We start classes tonight with our previous puppy trainer (she is local) in a family dog / basic obedience course. The trainer is currently doing rally and was holding / training agility classes a few years ago and may start again with enough interest. She is fabulous so I'm hoping she will do this.

I have a call into two other trainers - one is obedience focused and one is agility focused but both are about 1.5hrs away - long drive so it would need to be over the weekend and I'm not sure that is available - which was the reason for my interest in the first school....

Thank you all for your comments - it's helped me to know that my first instinct was correct - run away and dont look back!


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I agree with other posts, find someone else, another facility.


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

I have fantastic news!!!!!!!!!!!

Our previous puppy trainer accepted Lilly into her family dog / obedience class. And we had a great time! We are back in a class with a safe positive reinforcement clicker training approach.

I spoke to her about the other center and one I found about an 1.5hr away that actually does use positive training but the drive is really prohibitive and she gave a couple options (1) Lilly is actually more advanced in her obedience skills than the others so she will be giving us the next step during class and start to incorporate rally commands and basic commands needed for agility. And (2) she also has several others interested in agility and plans to start the class in the fall :-D

I'm just thrilled to be back with a trainer I trust :-D


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Excellent news - sounds as if you are set for a fun Autumn, and without the long drive!


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

Minnie said:


> In all class the the prong collar would be worn - dogs are not allowed inside the facility without - this was told to me in very strict terms. This would include teaching the obstacles as well and only after the dog is sufficient on all obstacles would off leash training begin.


You could always get a leather collar the same width or a little wider and attach the pronged coller firmly to the outside of the leather collar and he indeed would be wearing the pronged collar but just not next to his skin. But honestly, I would run in the opposite direction from this trainer.


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

Marcie said:


> You could always get a leather collar the same width or a little wider and attach the pronged coller firmly to the outside of the leather collar and he indeed would be wearing the pronged collar but just not next to his skin. But honestly, I would run in the opposite direction from this trainer.


I turned an ran! Thankfully my original trainer has started a family dog / obedience class that we started last week and I think she is in very very good hands! She is even talking about doing an agility intro course laster in the year.

I've also found a pre-agility course that leads into a beginner agility class that has started - I observed this weekend and I'm considering joining - only Bella -my 4lb toy is the only one old enough so I'm not sure.... Otherwise I'll definitely look into this class in the winter when my Aussie is old enough.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Minnie said:


> Right now I'm looking for another trainer as I'm in on way comfortable of putting that type of collar on my 9 month old puppy. I don't want to make her do this I want her to want to do this as her play drive is huge!


Puppies shouldn't be doing agility training. They are still growing and strenuous activities can damage their joints. A dog needs to be at least a year old before most agility groups will admit it on a beginner's course, and some require dogs to be older. Just stick with obedience until your puppy is older -- the commands she will learn there will help her when she is old enough to start agility. I agree with other people about finding a different group. This one sounds bizarre, and dangerous.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Besides what everyone else has said about these collars having no place in agility, it doesn't impress me when a professional trainer's skills are such that they have to resort to a collar that pressed spikes into the dog's neck in order to get them to behave. 

Any one can hurt or bully a dog. Why do you even have to pay someone else to do that? Using a prong isn't rocket science.

Using your intelligence to train instead of brawn is much more impressive in my book.

If you need a trainer referral, let me know and I'll ask my friends to see if anyone is in your area. My friend's don't use methods or tools that utilize force, fear, intimidation, or pain/discomfort.

Agility should be fun, don't you think?


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