# Breeding/color genetics



## Mehpenn

Are there specific colors typically not advised to cross during breedings? 

Breeding a fading/diluted color to a dog of a diluted color will produce a diluted litter. (Ex: Apricot/silver/blue/cafe au lait)
And diluted colors are dominant (correct?) so to breed a diluted color to a non diluted color would typically produce a diluted litter, correct? Unless the diluted parent is of diluted/non-diluted lineage, then could carry a recessive non-dilute gene and increase the chances of producing a no-diluted puppy? (Ex: Apricot to black)
(I hope that makes sense). 

I've bred GSD's and am fascinated with the genetics of color.


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## peppersb

The genetics of the fading gene or genes is not fully understood. But some people think that the fading gene (or genes) that causes black or brown poodles to fade is entirely different from the genes that cause red/apricot dogs to fade. And it is almost certainly different from the genes that select the color of a dog in the cream spectrum -- i.e. select whether an ee dog will be white, cream, apricot or red.

The way the fading gene is thought to work in black and brown puppies is not a matter of dominant or recessive. Instead, it is thought that both of the fading/non-fading genes that the puppy inherits play a role in determining the color. So for example, if a silver is bred to a black, the puppies will inherit one fading gene and one non-fading gene and the puppies will be blue.

Breeders with a white, cream, apricot or red bitch would generally avoid breeding to a brown (or cafe au lait) dog because brown dogs can introduce a liver nose in a white/cream/apricot/red dog. I think (but not 100% sure) that even a black dog that carries the brown recessive gene (e.g. BbEe) should be avoided. 

See the chart and explanations on this page for more info:
VetGen Colour Test - Poodles in Scandinavia


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## CharismaticMillie

Mehpenn said:


> Are there specific colors typically not advised to cross during breedings?
> 
> Breeding a fading/diluted color to a dog of a diluted color will produce a diluted litter. (Ex: Apricot/silver/blue/cafe au lait)
> And diluted colors are dominant (correct?) so to breed a diluted color to a non diluted color would typically produce a diluted litter, correct? Unless the diluted parent is of diluted/non-diluted lineage, then could carry a recessive non-dilute gene and increase the chances of producing a no-diluted puppy? (Ex: Apricot to black)
> (I hope that makes sense).
> 
> I've bred GSD's and am fascinated with the genetics of color.


Um...It's really not that black and white or fully understood. We don't know the gene(s) responsible for the clearing colors in poodles and it's not the same as what makes dilute colors in other breeds. You could loosely assume to get blue and black puppies if you bred blue to black. Probably mostly blue puppies if you bred silver to black. If you bred true blue to true blue, probably would get silver, black and blue puppies.


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## CharismaticMillie

peppersb said:


> Breeders with a white, cream, apricot or red bitch would generally avoid breeding to a brown (or cafe au lait) dog because brown dogs can introduce a liver nose in a white/cream/apricot/red dog. I think (but not 100% sure) that even a black dog that carries the brown recessive gene (e.g. BbEe) should be avoided.
> 
> See the chart and explanations on this page for more info:
> VetGen Colour Test - Poodles in Scandinavia


It really doesn't need to be avoided at all if you color test. Plenty of breeders will breed a cream to a black that carries brown, as long as the cream doesn't carry brown.


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## Mehpenn

So, for example in my Tilly's case: she (appears to be) blue, out of an apricot/silver mating. 
How would that happen? shoukd I expect Tilly to continue lightening to silver?


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## CharismaticMillie

Mehpenn said:


> So, for example in my Tilly's case: she (appears to be) blue, out of an apricot/silver mating.
> How would that happen? shoukd I expect Tilly to continue lightening to silver?


Not necessarily...she could be blue. Especially if there isn't blue or silver behind the apricot parent. For example, if you breed white/cream to silver, and there isn't silver or blue behind the white, you're going to most likely get white/cream and blue puppies. And since white/cream/apricot/red is all the same color genetically, the same general theory applies...


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## peppersb

Mehpenn said:


> So, for example in my Tilly's case: she (appears to be) blue, out of an apricot/silver mating.
> How would that happen? shoukd I expect Tilly to continue lightening to silver?


How old is Tilly? It can take 2 or 3 years for a silver or blue poodle to clear. 

Tilly has one silver parent, so you know she received one fading gene (according to the prevailing theory which may be over-simplified). So the question is what is behind the apricot. You can't tell just by looking at the apricot. Does the apricot have black, blue or silver parents? If not, what about the grandparents? To take a simple example, if the apricot's parents are both black, you would know that Tilly did not inherit a fading gene, and you would expect her to be blue. If the apricot's parents are both silver, you would know that Tilly did inherit a fading gene, and you would expect her to be silver.

I bred my Cammie (cream) to a silver stud. So that is essentially the same as the apricot-silver breeding that you asked about. See my post #3 in the following thread for a description of how we estimated what we expected to get in the puppies.
http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/209769-silver-genetics-breeding.html

If one of the apricot's parents is apricot (or white, cream or red), then you need to look to see if that dog had black, blue or silver parents. Basically skip over the white, cream, apricot and red dogs in the pedigree and see if there is any black, blue or silver behind them. But one problem is that blues are sometimes registered as black. Cammie's father is registered black, but he is blue. Sometimes hard to get all the facts straight, but I do think this color genetics stuff is interesting.

PS. You can look up Tilly's parents on www.poodledata.org and view a 5-generation color pedigree. Go to the 5-generation pedigree first, then you will have an option to view a color pedigree.


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## Mehpenn

peppersb said:


> Mehpenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, for example in my Tilly's case: she (appears to be) blue, out of an apricot/silver mating.
> How would that happen? shoukd I expect Tilly to continue lightening to silver?
> 
> 
> 
> How old is Tilly? It can take 2 or 3 years for a silver or blue poodle to clear.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

Tilly is 13 months. 
Her sure is registered apricot. Her dam is registered black, faded to silver.


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## CharismaticMillie

Mehpenn said:


> Tilly is 13 months.
> Her sure is registered apricot. Her dam is registered black, faded to silver.


Black doesn't fade to silver...A silver puppy is born black but is clearly a silver puppy by 8 weeks and can take a couple years to clear to its final color. But you can't mistake a silver puppy for black. And a knowledgeable breeder will know that a silver puppy is a silver puppy well before they are registered, so registering a silver puppy as black doesn't happen very easily..... Do you have a photo of her dam?


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## Mehpenn

CharismaticMillie said:


> Mehpenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly is 13 months.
> Her sure is registered apricot. Her dam is registered black, faded to silver.
> 
> 
> 
> Black doesn't fade to silver...A silver puppy is born black but is clearly a silver puppy by 8 weeks and can take a couple years to clear to its final color. But you can't mistake a silver puppy for black. And a knowledgeable breeder will know that a silver puppy is a silver puppy well before they are registered, so registering a silver puppy as black doesn't happen very easily..... Do you have a photo of her dam?
Click to expand...

No, I don't. I wish I did. I bought Tilly from a third party on a referral from a standard breeder at our dog club. The seller had acquired the puppies (Tilly's whole litter) after the breeder became ill. 
She (the lady I bought Tilly from) planned to keep one female and sell the other two. I believe the original breeder has since passed away. So, I have limited information other than what I've been able to gather from her pedigree and what I was told when I bought her, which was that the sire was apricot (which matches as he was registered) and the dam was silver (however she was registered as black). So, It's possible she's actually blue and not silver.


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## Mehpenn

If her dam was registered early, she could have been mistaken for black? (However, her color should have been corrected at some point before she was bred.)


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## CharismaticMillie

Mehpenn said:


> If her dam was registered early, she could have been mistaken for black? (However, her color should have been corrected at some point before she was bred.)


I seriously doubt it...it's hard to imagine doing individual AKC registration on a puppy before they are 4 weeks of age (silver is easy to spot by then). Blue could be more easily misidentified as black at the time of individual registration, which is usually after 8 weeks old.


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## Coldbrew

Is Tilly the dog in your profile picture? 
if so, at only 13 months, I'd feel confident calling her a silver. 
if she were a blue and already that light, I'd be amazed.


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## Mehpenn

No. The dog in my avatar is Sadie. She is 13 years old. 

This is Tilly:


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## Coldbrew

ahh, gotcha. 
with a face that dark at 13 months, she is definitely not a silver. 
she looks like a blue to me


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## Mehpenn

Coldbrew said:


> ahh, gotcha.
> with a face that dark at 13 months, she is definitely not a silver.
> she looks like a blue to me


That's what I believe as well. Although her face is slightly lighter when she's shaved close. 
Sadie is nearly white when shaved close.


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## CharismaticMillie

Mehpenn said:


> No. The dog in my avatar is Sadie. She is 13 years old.
> 
> This is Tilly:


Perfectly blue


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## Mehpenn

Looking at Tilly's pedigree, she's got a rainbow of colors behind her. 
Her sire is listed as Apricot, out of a black parti and a black, out of black parti, white, red and brown. 
Her dam is listed as black but is said to be silver, out of a brown and a silver, out of a black, black, silver and a brown.


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## Mehpenn

So, with poodle color genetics not being fully understood, how do you decide what to breed for a specific color? (This sounds like a really lame question as I type it... I think I'm just tired and nothing is making sense to me?)


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## spindledreams

Well you don't really when it comes to the shading colors. A commonly accepted explanation that seems to work for most breeding experience WITH POODLES is Silver = 2 fading genes, Blue = 1 fading genes, black = 0 fading genes. 

Using that rule black x black = black
blue x black = blue or black
blue x blue = black, blue or silver
black x silver = blue 
blue x silver = blue or silver
silver x silver = silver 

Of course we are only talking black based colors here where you can SEE the fading of the black pigment. The reds, apricots, and creams could be any of the 3 shades but not show it so crossing any of them to a black is a crap shoot. For instance in the line my Twilight is from there are ONLY black and Cream/white puppies produced but the same breeding of black x cream in other lines could produce black, blues or silvers as well as the cream/white puppies. 

For the red based colors you try to breed to the shade you want to reproduce ie red to red or red to black if you want reds, apricot to red, apricot to black, or apricot to apricot if you want apricots and cream/white to cream/white if you want cream/white. Ice white aka born white are another color that we are not really sure how they happen...

Multicolors we know are recessive pattern genes and while we can breed for or away from them the exact color or shades of the patterns is as difficult to predict as the solid colors.


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## peppersb

Mehpenn said:


> So, with poodle color genetics not being fully understood, how do you decide what to breed for a specific color? (This sounds like a really lame question as I type it... I think I'm just tired and nothing is making sense to me?)


While the fading gene is not fully understood, the genetics for selecting for the basic colors (black, brown or cream-spectrum) is fully understood. The probabilities are laid out in the vetgen table. For example, if you want black, look for one of the boxes in the chart that says "all black." You will see that a BBEE poodle will produce all black litters when bred to any poodle. (BBEE is a black dog that does not carry brown or cream genes). There are other combinations that will also produce all black litters. If color is important to you, having the dogs color tested will let you know where you lie on this chart. Here's another link to the chart: https://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color2.html

Good info from Spindledreams on other aspects of selecting for color.


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## Mehpenn

That's informative! Thank you!


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## Mehpenn

Would it be assumed that as in the [black, blue, silver] pattern of genes there would be a [red, apricot, cream] and a [brown, cafe au lait, silver beige] pattern?


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## peppersb

Mehpenn said:


> Would it be assumed that as in the [black, blue, silver] pattern of genes there would be a [red, apricot, cream] and a [brown, cafe au lait, silver beige] pattern?


It is thought that the fading gene works the same way in brown poodles as in black poodles. So brown poodles are born brown and may fade to cafe au lait or silver beige if they have the fading gene. 

But the genetics for red, apricot, cream and white poodles is not the same. While there may be some fading in these colors, you can tell the difference between a red poodle and a cream poodle from the moment that it is born. Red poodles do not "clear" to cream or white.


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## spindledreams

Your right of course the basic black, brown or ee color is fairly straight forward just as in any other dog breed. 

In the UKC Poodles group and Multicolor Poodle History group we have been having fun watching our knowledge of the patterns in our breed evolve. We now know that poodles have all four "A" series alleles. So our poodles can come in Sable, Wild/wolf sable (often called sable phantom in poodles) black and tan (real phantoms) AND recessive black.
We have also discovered a couple of "seal" poodles ie dogs that should not have the pattern in their "A" series show but do. (the term comes from the Border Collies genetics group I a in) As more people color test and share the results of their odd uns our knowledge keeps growing.


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## Mehpenn

So what would Tilly's genetic color code look like?


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## peppersb

Mehpenn said:


> So what would Tilly's genetic color code look like?





Mehpenn said:


> So, for example in my Tilly's case: she (appears to be) blue, out of an apricot/silver mating.
> How would that happen? shoukd I expect Tilly to continue lightening to silver?


Based on what you say above, Tilly would be either BBEe or BbEe. Bb means she carries the brown gene. If there are no brown dogs in her pedigree, she is probably BBEe. You could have her tested to be sure. The fact that she has an apricot parent (ee) means that she must have one 'e' and the fact that she is black (or blue) means that she must have one 'E' -- so that's how you can tell that she is Ee.

PS The vetgen page mentioned in a previous post says:
If your dog is black the possible genotypes are: BBEE, BBEe, BbEE, BbEe.
If your dog is brown, the possible genotypes are: bbEE, bbEe.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a black nose, possible genotypes are: BBee, Bbee.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a brown nose, your dog's genotype is bbee.


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## CharismaticMillie

Like Peppersb said, she would be BbEe or BBEe. She may also carry the piebald gene.


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## Mehpenn

CharismaticMillie said:


> Like Peppersb said, she would be BbEe or BBEe. She may also carry the piebald gene.


Which would be the parti/multicolor? 
She does have two black/white dogs listed on her pedigree. Both on her sires side. It would be her grandfather and great grandfather.


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## someday

Mehpenn said:


> Which would be the parti/multicolor?
> 
> She does have two black/white dogs listed on her pedigree. Both on her sires side. It would be her grandfather and great grandfather.




Parti is the poodle-specific name for piebaldism. I am personally not a fan of the term "multicolor" because white (from piebaldism/mismarking) is really not considered a color. It's more of a 'mask' if you will, because it goes over any and all patterns and colors that the animal may have. But that's just a personal pet peeve of mine and may not be the same view as some hardcore poodle fanciers


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## CharismaticMillie

Mehpenn said:


> Which would be the parti/multicolor?
> She does have two black/white dogs listed on her pedigree. Both on her sires side. It would be her grandfather and great grandfather.


Yes, if she has parti-colored dogs in her pedigree, she could carry the piebald gene. It's a simple recessive, so Tilly's grandparent would have carried two copies of the gene in order to be parti-colored. And that grandparent would have automatically passed one copy to Tilly's parent. Tilly's parent would have carried the gene but only a 50/50 chance of passing it on to Tilly.


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