# Good dog who goes bad outdoors



## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Our spoo girl is 8 months old. She is pretty well-behaved in the house, and has a nice range of reliable behaviors – sit, stand, touch, lie down, go to mat, etc. When she is excited inside, it is pretty easy to reorient her by sending her to her mat and having her sit or lie down. If she is over-excited, she sometimes even takes it upon herself to go to her pen to calm down!

Outside is another story. We haven’t been letting the kids play alone in the yard with her lately because she gets over-aroused and jumps and nips. She is getting better on this front, though, as we do lots of training outside. She is now fine with the kids during a controlled game of fetch, though I stay and watch just in case.

Out on walks, however, she is very unpredictable when she sees a car or another dog or a stroller. She might be readily distracted with a treat (we’ve been working a lot on that) … she might bark or lunge, but then be recalled and calmed with a sit and a treat … or she might flip out and start jumping and biting me. 

The last scenario has gone from annoying to scary as she approaches full size. She has never broken the skin, but when she gets her teeth into my calf, it hurts. And, I can’t reliably stop her. She gets into this crazy zone, and she is mentally out of reach. Sometimes I just need to drag her home attached to my leg! 

We could avoid walks entirely, but I want to train her to behave on leash so that she can get proper exercise (we have a very small yard) and enjoy the world, and simply because I would like to be able to take my darn dog for walk! So I do my best to train while minimizing crazy-making encounters. I take her out very early or very late, sometimes stick to the alley, and don’t travel more than half a block away so that I can at least get home quickly if need be.

Still, it is scary to think I could be bit at any time, and unable to stop her when it happens.

We are working with a trainer and have had one consultation with a vet behaviorist. They both think she is well-behaved for her age overall, but are leaning toward meds given that her behavior outside can get so extreme. Maybe that is a sign of how troubled she is, but I am resistant. She is so young, is calm in the house, and has responded well to training on so many other fronts; it’s not like she is hopeless. Also, frankly, there is the cost -- the behaviorist is $250 an hour—and the logistics of working more medical appointments into life as a working parent is overwhelming. 

Another wrinkle: A neighbor recently lent me a can of Pet Corrector. This is a spray of compressed gas that releases a hissing noise. I was reluctant to try it because we don’t like to use such aversive techniques. Also, our girl has no noise issues and I don’t want to create any. However, desperate times … so I used it next time she was in crazy bite mode, and it worked like a charm. She heard the hiss and stopped immediately. She wasn’t terrified by any means, but definitely concerned. It made her alert and focused, and allowed me to reconnect with her and get back into training mode. I’ve used it twice since, with the same result. I am trying to limit the use to her most extreme biting behavior because I want the magic to last until she is reliably trained.

To me, this is a success because just having this can with me allows me to work on leash training without fear for my physical safety. That said, I don’t think my trainer (who is out of town this week) will approve of this aversive approach. 

I’d appreciate your thoughts and any experience you can share. Am I wrong to use Pet Corrector as a crutch for now? Is it too soon to consider medication, or am I postponing the inevitable?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You have a lot going on there and I think it is really important that people are honest when they have issues rather than making the world think it is all just so easy to raise a dog from puppy through adolescent to adult. Then people who are worried think there is something really wrong with them or their dog when things feel like they are going off the rails.

I think some of this is adolescent behavior. Lily was a pretty obnoxious teenager. Javelin has been easier, but just the other day I had him for a lesson with my private trainer and he was getting very excited because we were working on jumps. He was jumping up and putting teeth on my arm (not biting, mouthing, but still obnoxious on his part and uncomfortable to me). The word rude came out of both of our mouths at just about the same time, with me following that with a firm order to lie down (his way of getting time out). 

Since your teenage girl is a family dog I think you are wise to supervise backyard play. Do you have your children actively involved in training your girl? Does she listen to them? If not, I would work on that.

I would suggest trying rescue remedy before you go down a prescription route. I would give a generous dose about 15 minutes before taking her out for a walk and then use the walk as training. Ask for lots of focus and attention, sits and the like. You may not go very far and your neighbors will think you are strange, but it will help to desensitize her to the things that make her get overly excited (for much of Lily's first year we didn't go much further than a couple of houses down the street in 30-45 minutes). If you aren't familiar with it look up "Look At That (LAT)" training and work on it out on your front yard to get her to learn how to relax around cars, kids on bikes and the other things that currently send her over the top. Doing it at home on the lawn will let her feel a little more relaxed and let you break it off if things get out of hand and you want to stop.

I have never used Pet Corrector, but from what you describe I don't think it sounds like a terribly aversive tool at all, more like using sound as a way to break her thinking and redirect. I also don't think the Pet Corrector is a crutch, but in fact, a tool. I don't think medication is inevitable by any stretch of the imagination and that turning to medication to be able to walk your girl would be more a crutch than the training work that clearly you are willing to put in to have her be happy in the world and a pleasure to take a walk with.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I think the Pet Corrector is fine as long as your puppy is handling it well and it's helping, but you're right to want to phase it out eventually. Aversives can be like treats that way, where if you're not careful you end up having to have it with you in order to get compliance.

Personally I think you're doing all the right things for an overstimulated dog - trying to go for a calm environment, keeping outings short, and giving lots of good feedback on how to behave. It sounds like you have a very high-stimulus dog who's a TEENAGER on top of it. Teenage dogs are almost always boneheads, so keep that in mind too. Don't compare your crazy half-grown puppy to a calm, middle-aged dog, because it's not fair and will just make you feel worse. 

Anyway, a few things that might help. One is to learn the "Look at That" game. You can find lots of videos of it on YouTube, but here's a version that uses clicker training: 




Basically you reward your dog the SECOND she sees something distracting. If you do it right, then after a while she will start looking at YOU right when she sees something exciting, because she'll think, "Oh! That thing means I get a treat!" From there you can start rewarding focus and eye contact. 

Here's another video on teaching focus and attention: 




You don't actually have to use a clicker to do these, by the way - I usually just use a marker work like "Yes!" or "Good!"

You also might want to check out the book "Control Unleashed," by Leslie McDevitt. Her program was developed to help keyed-up agility dogs stay focused in the ring, but the methods work really well for any dog who's easily distracted and high energy. You might see if that could help as well. She has a website for her whole Control Unleashed program: Leslie McDevitt: Control Unleashed®: Home Page

Anyway, best of luck, and I hope it gets better soon!

EDIT: I also wanted to say, by way of sympathy, that I brought home Archie when he was 10 months old, and he's a very excitable dog generally, and I just remember thinking OH NO WHAT HAVE I DONE?? It's been almost 2 years and several training classes since then (including one group training class for "jumpers and pullers" that made for a good support group if nothing else) and he now only collapses into a wiggly, jumpy mess when he sees something particularly exciting. He even managed to get a Canine Good Citizen certificate via a magic combination of circumstances on testing day. So it does get better, even if it seems to happen a little slower than you'd like!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

lisasgirl I guess we were writing at about the same time. Thanks for including that nice LAT video in your post. Leslie McDevitt is another great person to follow. She gave a seminar that I took a number of years ago where she demonstrated a bunch of her games and exercises.

For another version of attention exercises you can search for the five cookie game that I described in Javelin's performance blog here.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

You've gotten some good advice! It's difficult to go into detail here into how I manage reactive behavior on leash, but I will say that you definitely want to address it and get it under control now, and not avoid going for walks. Remember that any behavioral issue is only going to get worse, and not better, unless it is immediately addressed. As you go into adolescence, things like this can pop up. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of addressing it now and not just waiting it out or avoiding it. 

When she totally flips out and starts "biting" you, that is her redirecting her high arousal level.

I second the recommendation for LAT and I like Lily's method of teaching attention for this situation as well.

Also, are you walking her by chance on a no pull harness? In my personal experience, and keep in mind that I am not a dog trainer, but I do have some experience with training dogs, many people resort to a no pull harness in an effort to use a tool that is considered humane rather than something like a prong, which I do understand. But, what I see is that in some cases they don't have sufficient attention and leash manners trained, and once they hit adolescence, if they happen to have a dog prone to become overstimulated or reactive, they really don't have sufficient control. At that point, it's really easiest to have control over the dog with the use of a prong, a head halter, or a martingale. The martingale offers less control than the prong or the head halter, but my dogs are quite well behaved on a martingale. I list both a prong and a head halter as some dogs find one more aversive than the other (and the most aversive one isn't always the one you might think it is.)


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Thank you all for these reassuring and helpful responses. It is discouraging to feel like our pup is so exceptionally awful that she needs medical help, and isolating to watch other people walk by with their calm and happy dogs. I appreciate the helpful perspective that she is a teenager with some growing up to do! I will be viewing and reading all the helpful links and I'll keep you posted as we implement them.


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Also, are you walking her by chance on a no pull harness? In my personal experience, and keep in mind that I am not a dog trainer, but I do have some experience with training dogs, many people resort to a no pull harness in an effort to use a tool that is considered humane rather than something like a prong, which I do understand. But, what I see is that in some cases they don't have sufficient attention and leash manners trained, and once they hit adolescence, if they happen to have a dog prone to become overstimulated or reactive, they really don't have sufficient control. At that point, it's really easiest to have control over the dog with the use of a prong, a head halter, or a martingale. The martingale offers less control than the prong or the head halter, but my dogs are quite well behaved on a martingale. I list both a prong and a head halter as some dogs find one more aversive than the other (and the most aversive one isn't always the one you might think it is.)


We are not using a no-pull harness. I've tried one and it doesn't prevent the jumping and biting. And she's actually not much of a puller, strangely! Defying conventional wisdom, she is less likely to pull in a regular harness than she is when the leash is clipped to her collar.

She generally has not objected to the various harnesses and collars we've tried, but she absolutely hated the head halter (though I probably introduced it too quickly under the assumption that she wouldn't care). It is indeed possible that she would find the prong less aversive.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I also have a couple who pull on a collar but are great in regular, nonrestrictive harnesses! That's what I use for hiking. Of course then I have one who pulls much worse in a harness than a martingale.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think a lot of dogs really resist head halters because of how it looks and feels going on. I personally think I would really hate having something around my head like that. I also think that many people tend to misunderstand head halters as being some variation of a muzzle and they think the dog is dangerous as a result. One can put a cover on the top of a pinch collar and most people won't know what it is. With any such tool make sure it is properly introduced and used though. And Millie I totally agree with you about no pull harnesses. I had a reactive dog I worked with who had figured out how to pull against one and I really worried over her initially because it just seemed like a great way for her to hurt herself.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

My dogs, including my 80, (Lab) 90 (Dobe) and 100 (GSD) lb dogs stopped pulling when they found out that it didn't work to get to walk forward. I stopped, held my ground consistently each and every time the leash got taut and some other little maneuvers we've talked about here. I didn't need any special collar. Once the dog finds out he's not going to get anywhere and it's going to be very boring not to be able to walk, they stop pulling. Of course, it has to happen every single time.

As far as the wild, crazy shenanigans, redirect that energy and I 2nd the LAT training and just more obedience training in general. It helps in a global way as far as behavior all around.

I'd stick with the clicker training like Lisa talked about and avoid avoidance techniques, not because they're all going to necessarily reduce your pup to a puddle of quivering jello, but because once a dog gets onto learning using the concepts of clicker training, using avoidance type tools can disrupt the learning they're doing...that learning _HOW_ TO LEARN. It confuses the issue in other words. The dog is learning how to earn reward and learning to throw new behaviors to try and make you click. Then when something is used to stop them from that "mission," aka...positive punishment, it slows learning. PP will tend to reduce trying new behaviors. If you use pp, be sure to immediately show the dog what TO do and reinforce. 

Here's something I always liked. It is very good. How to Train a "Crazy" Dog! | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


Is your dog getting plenty of exercise? Here's something else that might help.
Training a Hyperactive Dog to Calm Down | Whole Dog Journal

Good luck. I can totally empathize. My Doberman was a crazy dog. And actually, my 2nd GSD was too when he was young. Both simmered down and turned into magnificent and lovely young adults. Yours will too.


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Here's something I always liked. It is very good. How to Train a "Crazy" Dog! | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
> 
> Good luck. I can totally empathize. My Doberman was a crazy dog. And actually, my 2nd GSD was too when he was young. Both simmered down and turned into magnificent and lovely young adults. Yours will too.


Thank you for the links! I am going to try carrying a tug toy with me as a possible diversion from my leg. 

And thank you for the hopeful words -- they do help!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

WinnieJane said:


> Thank you for the links! I am going to try carrying a tug toy with me as a possible diversion from my leg.
> 
> And thank you for the hopeful words -- they do help!


Oh there's lots of help out there. If one thing doesn't strike your fancy, something else will. Your pup is still just that...a pup. 8 months old is just that rambunctious stage. 

One thing besides all the other advice about distracting and redirecting from that jumping and biting, remember...ANY reinforcement of a behavior will likely increase that behavior. So if you say "no" or flail your hands when she bites, or run or squeal "ouch" it may ALL be construed as attention. It's attending to...It's a reaction drawing attention to that behavior. So as hard as it is, when it happens, it's best to try to remove yourself and ignore if possible. And better still is to find a way to intercept the behavior and when she makes the first muscle contraction to jump or lunge, BEFORE her knees bend down in readiness to spring, intercept and offer an incompatible behavior. You say she knows sit. So when she looks like she's thinking of jumping, lunging or biting, ask for a sit and be ready to reinforce with a high value item or treat. Be sure to use something she* LOVES. *Make it worthwhile to her to comply. Teach her more obedience stuff or tricks and have your arsenal ready... go through your repertoire during your walk or any time she's apt to act up. Give her something else to do BEFORE she gets obnoxious. Reinforce OFTEN. People don't tend to give enough feed back to their dogs for good behavior. Frequent reinforcement does that. It is like a communication. If she does a behavior you like but nothing happens, it may not turn out to be worthwhile to her to repeat it. So watch for behavior you like and reinforce...even when you're not actively training. Look for opportunities, capture behavior when she does something spontaneously and reinforce. 

When I say incompatible, if she sits she can not jump. If she "takes" (part of retrieving...taking the object in her mouth on cue and holding it) she can not bite. 

Teach her to jump up on you ON CUE ONLY. Show her that it is reinforcing but ONLY when cued. It's a trick. Sometimes putting something on cue that you don't want practiced at random helps the dog get the difference. Think of some other things she does that you don't like and apply that concept. Or teach an incompatible behavior.

Be sure she's getting plenty of hard running outside. Fetch? With a ball in her mouth, she can't very well bite. And she can run. haha. Get her tired out. Have her fetch a brush with bristles. Not a wire brush. lol. That's too harsh. But a scrub brush or something with a little bit of mild discomfort and that will keep her from biting down...help her develop a softer mouth if she's biting too hard. Don't let her keep it and gnaw on it. This is for bringing back to you and giving to your hand. ("give") If she mouths you gently (I'd encourage it at those calm, cuddly, gentle times) praise her, reward her. Give her feed back that this is nice. The instant it is anywhere close to discomfort on your skin, get up, walk away. End that nice cuddly, lovey, gentle mouthing play. Try again in one minute. Teach her that gentle mouthing is okay. (you can stop that later....down the road) But teach her good bite inhibition if she doesn't already have it. 

This will pass...seriously. She's really young still. It's a hard age and phase....that just under a year time. Ugggg. Matisse was quite the active one...he didn't bite after the first 2 weeks I had him. But he did other obnoxious things...still does a little bit. lol.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

You've gotten a lot of good advice here. I would just add a column from one of my favorite dog training blogs, The Naughty Dogge. It's very hard to remain calm and quiet when your dog is going bonkers, but it does help. 

https://www.facebook.com/monique.anstee/posts/10154124543156246


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Verve said:


> You've gotten a lot of good advice here. I would just add a column from one of my favorite dog training blogs, The Naughty Dogge. It's very hard to remain calm and quiet when your dog is going bonkers, but it does help.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/monique.anstee/posts/10154124543156246


I'd stumbled across this on Facebook and I like it, too. She had something similar recently that I would do well to keep in mind: She said to imagine that between you and your dog there are 10 total energy points, and your goal is to stay at 10. If your dog is at 2, you might need to be at 8 yourself to get her motivated to train. But if she is at 8, stay at 2 yourself to help her settle down.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

You've gotten lots of great advice.

When you are walking your dog and you see something that you suspect will set him off, do you move to the side, away from the stimulus? For example, I don't want my dog to be reactive on the leash when walking around other dogs. She's perfect walking around most dogs, but when I see a dog already starting to act up, pulling it's lead etc., I worry that might set my dog off so I do two things. First I put myself in between and second I leave a wider space than normal so my dog remains calm and well behaved. By not putting my dog in a position of being reactive on the leash, she's learning to always walk calmly with me.

One of my trainers told someone in our class to take their reactive dog to a park or one of the big box pet stores - outside and to keep their dog at a distance that the dog doesn't get excited - and slowly over time start moving them closer to the other dogs.

I'm sure your trainer will have lots of ideas to help you over this hump.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

There's been a lot of really valuable information given, for all of us, I'm definitely going to be looking back on this thread. Winnie Jane, I've been in positions with Abbey at that age when nothing seemed to work for me. I have left classes with her sweating and out of breath, because she was jumping up all over me and mouthing at me. At 2 years and 3 months she occasionally still has her moments, but not near as bad and I'm able to get her focused on me now. I have used the pressurized can, it worked to snap her back into reality without bothering her at all. I'd way rather use something like that than medication, I'm a little surprised your vet went there. Dolly has been completely different, no crazies or out of control moments, and what this has taught me is I didn't necessarily do anything wrong training Abbey, she was just more challenging. I think you are doing a remarkable job training and making time in your busy life for everyone, it's going to get better and you are going about it right.


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Thank you for the kind words, Caddy! 

It's also good to hear that others have had success with this nifty device. This evening we were out without it, when she got crazy. I tried imitating the sound with a loud hiss, and that also worked to distract her from biting me. (I then put her in a sit and treated her.)


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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Hi WinnieJane - I do not have any advice, but I'm sending you a virtual hug your way. My Sammy is also a "good dog who goes bad outside". He loses his manners and bounces and throws a fit when he cannot greet another person or a dog. I'm glad he loves other people and dogs, but he is over-friendly. I'm often embarrassed by this behaviour, and I feel like people judge me for lack of training him or exercising him. I'm constantly working on this, and I'm hoping he is getting better each day. I'm mostly doing a lot of small outings and coming home before his arousal level gets to the point I'm not comfortable with. He will be turning one in a few days...


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Sammy the spoo said:


> Hi WinnieJane - I do not have any advice, but I'm sending you a virtual hug your way. My Sammy is also a "good dog who goes bad outside".


Thank you! Hugs to you, too! We will get there ...


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

It's only been a few days since I last posted, but things have taken a dramatic turn for the better! I haven't even needed the Pet Corrector again (although I still carry it with me, which I think gives me confidence). We have been training a lot with clicks and treats on walks: "look at that" and "watch me" plus I periodically put her in a sit just to keep her focused. She has not gotten out of control once -- my son even came on walk with us and she managed to keep herself together although she desperately wanted to pounce.

Thank you all for the encouragement and excellent advice!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Awesome job, keep up the good work!


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Yay! I'm so glad it's so much better already!


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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

That's awesome WinnieJane! It's always so nice to see some light at the end of the tunnel. Keep us updated!!!


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## Sanic (Oct 22, 2015)

I just wanted to say thank you so much for making this thread! I am going through the exact same issue with my spoo (just over a year old) and this just happened yesterday on our walk. He was doing so great and then BAM! went crazy and started "biting" my arm and growling. I stepped on his leash and told him "down" in my angry voice and the second he touched the ground you could see him switch off. It's crazy how fast these moments come and go.

This thread has been super helpful in giving me ideas on how to prevent the behavior instead of just dealing with the aftermath haha.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I will add that overloading stimuli can happen even under circumstances where you think there should be good control. I took Lily and Javelin to a training center in New Jersey Saturday for match ring time. There were three rings and the one I signed in to work in was near the door, but also had a wall with mirrors at one end and an active ring on the side across from the one by the door to the building. It was a great proofing ring all around, but while lily toughed it out in her two times, Javelin did get overly excited towards the middle of his second ten minutes. We worked on go outs and jumping and he really loves these exercise and gets very juiced up practicing them. Between the wind slamming the door a couple of times and the activity in the ring next to us and the run for the go outs he lost his head a couple of times and was jumping up next to me while grabbing at my arm. When he gets that over the top I put him on a short down stay as a time out and then release to a sit before we go back to work. Someday he will be a beautiful working dog....impulse control...please, please please. For those of you who don't know it, Javvy is a 21 month old intact male spoo.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

They do get set off by weird things sometimes, and not always something you can control. Like if it's a really windy day, I know Archie's going to be crazy on his walk. Something about the wind blowing just really revs him up. And how do you play "Look at That" with the wind?? So then I just kind of tough it out and try to get it over with as quickly as I can.

He turns three in August...here's hoping he chills out some more around that age as I've heard of other dogs doing.


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