# It's because he's brown!



## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

:alberteinstein:Where do people get their info???

I met a lady in the village while I was walking the dogs, and she commented on Russell, saying what a nice looking dog he was. I thanked her and in joking (kinda) said for some reason he's lost all the training he's learned in the last year ... I think the snow erased it :banghead: She says it's because he's brown. :bird: I really didn't think I'd heard her properly, but yes ... "It's because he's brown" What was her reasoning we ask .... she is a groomer, and notices this in all the creams, browns, reds blaa blaa blaa. Only the blacks and whites are well behaved dogs. She babbled on about pigments and how all these dogs are new colors and have been bred to be bad behaved, and there is nothing I can do about it. There was no arguing the point ... she knew it all!:bolt:


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

It is amazing how prejudices can skew people's perpectives. I am a redhead and therefore have a temper. Blondes are dumb and brunettes are smart. At least she appreciated what a good looking dog Russell is.


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## MamaTiff (Sep 23, 2011)

She's a smart one. :crazy:


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

_Yikes!_ And to think she's allowed to use scissors and clippers! I find it more than a little disconcerting that fountain of misinformation is "armed"!!:ahhhhh:


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

I'm inclined to agree with that lady...almost all of the browns and reds that I have met are, at the very least, very goofy and a bit stupid, if not downright crazy. I don't know if it's that we have a bad batch of breeders in my area or what...but the black/white/cream/silver poodles are almost always great temperament wise. Just the other day, I had two brown poodles in to be groomed...one was a standard, they other a toy. Both from completely different families. And they are both nutty. The toy screamed and thrashed for her legs/feet/ear plucking/bath. The standard is getting better about being groomed, but he's the same way for his feet/legs. My boss could barely groom him the first time around. I used to groom a black standard that had a brown brother. The black one was good as gold, I loved doing him. The brown one, OTOH, was a nightmare. Not bad as in biting, just very goofy. Never wanted to stand still. 

Maybe it's just bad breeding...I know that it can be hard to find good breeders for the "rarer" colors, such as red and brown. I dunno....whatever it is, it's annoying!!


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

mom24doggies said:


> almost all of the browns and reds that I have met are, at the very least, very goofy and a bit stupid, if not downright crazy.


You must never have met our red or our daughter's brown!! :lol: They're not in the LEAST bit stupid or crazy and only get goofy when it's appropriate - like playing the in the big yard with their canine sisters! Actually we find that they're scary smart and very willing to please.

We work in Rally Obedience with them and they're both titled with more to come. They're also very accomodating on the grooming table (OK, Meau, the brown, doesn't LOVE having her face clipped, but she isn't horrible about it. It doesn't take long before she realizes we'll get done faster if she just sits still)

Hopefully you'll meet a better representative for the "colors" someday!!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

plumcrazy said:


> You must never have met our red or our daughter's brown!! :lol: They're not in the LEAST bit stupid or crazy and only get goofy when it's appropriate - like playing the in the big yard with their canine sisters! Actually we find that they're scary smart and very willing to please.
> 
> We work in Rally Obedience with them and they're both titled with more to come. They're also very accomodating on the grooming table (OK, Meau, the brown, doesn't LOVE having her face clipped, but she isn't horrible about it. It doesn't take long before she realizes we'll get done faster if she just sits still)
> 
> Hopefully you'll meet a better representative for the "colors" someday!!


 Well, obviously I haven't met _every_ brown or red.   Yours sound amazing! I hope that I meet some good representatives too.  I'm not the only groomer saying that they browns and reds are crazy either, so I really do think that it's the breeders in my area/surrounding areas.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Some of it may also have to do with the fact that we DO work with these dogs. We challenge their minds and bodies with our Rally O sport - if we didn't get the girls out regularly to practice and/or compete maybe they'd get stir crazy and bored, too... When there are other dog-related classes and or events, we take them to those too.

I've always expected the best from them and that's always what I get!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

plumcrazy said:


> Some of it may also have to do with the fact that we DO work with these dogs. We challenge their minds and bodies with our Rally O sport - if we didn't get the girls out regularly to practice and/or compete maybe they'd get stir crazy and bored, too... When there are other dog-related classes and or events, we take them to those too.
> 
> I've always expected the best from them and that's always what I get!


 You have a point...


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## phrannie (Jan 8, 2011)

*I've heard this about Labs, too....that the Yellows are very mellow, the Chocolates tend to be dog/same sex aggressive...and the Blacks are middle of the road. It's a tad hard to believe, when there are thousands of breeders out there, some of whom just want a litter of pups, and take little time or effort in researching pedigrees and bloodlines in order to get as good or even better than the parents of said litters.

I don't believe it...can ya tell?? 

p *


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

People are strange! I had a woman amazed by Zoe at the dog park because she was running around and playing with all the other dogs. She said that she didn't know poodles were athletic and liked to run. Seriously?! She thought they just stood tall and looked pretty. REALLY?!


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> I'm inclined to agree with that lady...almost all of the browns and reds that I have met are, at the very least, very goofy and a bit stupid, if not downright crazy. I don't know if it's that we have a bad batch of breeders in my area or what...
> 
> Maybe it's just bad breeding...I know that it can be hard to find good breeders for the "rarer" colors, such as red and brown. I dunno....whatever it is, it's annoying!!


I also wonder if the fact that because the browns and reds are newer colors, more of the "trendy" people are buying them. Which means breeders breeding for color rather than temperament. In my personal experience, having had a black Standard then a Brown Standard ... the brown is definitely easier to train, although he needs a firmer hand. And at a year, this pup gets into WAY less trouble than the Black did even at 5 years old! (Same trainer, same training methods  I did do a LOT more research on the breeder this time though. And checked out previous litters of the parents. I was looking for companion with good temperament. And the brown is more confident, (which the breeder did say he would be) and has absolutely NO problems with other dogs, whereas the black was a fear attacker of large and small dogs. But I still think it's totally unfair to paint them all with the same brush. My friend has a white that is absolutely off the wall!!


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> I'm inclined to agree with that lady...almost all of the browns and reds that I have met are, at the very least, very goofy and a bit stupid, if not downright crazy.


Are you serious???!!! If that is not stereotyping, I don't know what is. I will stop there. I might regret saying anything else.

Well, maybe this - I also wanted to add that after getting my BROWN Spoo at a year old, the groomer said she was such a well behaved dog. She was a pleasure to have and wished every dog could be as patient as her. This is coming from a brown poodle who was never professionally groomed before. And the fact that she can learn something new after the first time I show her something? Maybe I just got lucky? I don't think so. I am pretty sure there are an equal amount of stupid dogs in EVERY color.

I just think saying a particular color is stupid is not very nice. Even my children are not that judgmental.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> Maybe it's just bad breeding...I know that it can be hard to find good breeders for the "rarer" colors, such as red and brown. I dunno....whatever it is, it's annoying!!


I would say it was bad owners and bad training. If you don't socialise a puppy and get it used to being brushed/clipped, then it's understandable if it acts deranged in a groomer's shop. Maybe brown and red appeal more to people who can't be bothered to spend time with their dogs?


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

zyrcona said:


> Maybe brown and red appeal more to people who can't be bothered to spend time with their dogs?


Do you really think this? I just had to laugh out loud when I read this. Seriously. :argh:


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

Tymaca said:


> Do you really think this? I just had to laugh out loud when I read this. Seriously. :argh:


Hey ... I don't think she meant all of us brown owners, but there are people out there that always want to be "different" and since a great brown or red is rather rare, they'll choose that, or a labradoodle  And not all doodle people fail to train their dogs properly, but I have met a ton that fall into this slot. The poodle is a popular breed, so you're gonna get all kinds of owners out there, and not all will spend the time and effort to raise a well behaved companion  I chose brown over black this time because of the mud factor in our environment, (less bathing than a white, which I absolutely love) and because I felt it was too soon after my last Spoo crossed the bridge to get a black (If this makes any sense ) But I did a ton of research into the breeders, health first and temperament second... and my hubby and I train, train, train!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Tymaca said:


> Are you serious???!!! If that is not stereotyping, I don't know what is. I will stop there. I might regret saying anything else.
> 
> Well, maybe this - I also wanted to add that after getting my BROWN Spoo at a year old, the groomer said she was such a well behaved dog. She was a pleasure to have and wished every dog could be as patient as her. This is coming from a brown poodle who was never professionally groomed before. And the fact that she can learn something new after the first time I show her something? Maybe I just got lucky? I don't think so. I am pretty sure there are an equal amount of stupid dogs in EVERY color.
> 
> I just think saying a particular color is stupid is not very nice. Even my children are not that judgmental.


 Whoa, didn't mean to step on any toes here! I don't stereotype dogs by color, really I don't. When a brown or red poodle walks into my shop, I don't go "whup, that one's gonna be bad". I was simply making the observation that most of the poodles of those colors that I have met are crazy and yes stupid, to a degree. Does that mean that smart, sweet, calm brown and red poodles (like yours and plumcrazy's) don't exist? Not at all...it just means that I haven't met any yet. And I think I made it pretty clear in my post that I was speaking from MY experience, and wasn't just lumping all brown and red poodles into one group. And yup, you are right...I've met some stinker white and black poodles too. Got bit by a little white/cream toy poodle just not too long ago. I haven't encountered ones that I would label "stupid" (and by that I mean they have a difficult time learning something...) but I know they exist. 


I think you took my post personally, when it wasn't directed at anyone. Plumcrazy could have gotten herself all worked up over it, too. But instead she just pointed out that her experience with reds and browns has been different. 

And zyrcona may have a point. I've observed (again, note the *I* and the *observed*...I'm talking about _my_ experience again.  ) that in my area the "doodle dogs" have a tendency to attract the people that tend towards acting spoiled and rude, not to mention a little bit, eh, nutty. Why? I think it's because a lot of these doodles are used as status symbols..."ooohh, I have a 'designer dog' that I paid $1500+ for." And those type of people are the ones that use dogs for that purpose, which generally means that they don't have any interest in training/spending time with the dog. (And it shows.  ) It may be the same with red/brown poodles. They are less common, therefore are somehow more "desirable" as a status symbol, and therefore get less attention/training. 

As a sidenote, I realize that you DO spend time with your girl, and you DO train her. I am not putting you personally (or anyone on this board for that matter...obviously if you join a forum for the purpose of learning more and helping people with a particular breed, you care and wouldn't use a dog as a status symbol or ignore one!!) into any category. Just wanted to state that so that we are all clear on everything. Which, BTW, let me make one more point clear: telling someone they are judgmental based on one post isn't very nice, either. And I didn't say that all the dogs of those particular color are stupid. Again, I made it clear that I was speaking from MY experience only. Sorry I offended you.


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> As a sidenote, I realize that you DO spend time with your girl, and you DO train her. I am not putting you personally (or anyone on this board for that matter...obviously if you join a forum for the purpose of learning more and helping people with a particular breed, you care and wouldn't use a dog as a status symbol or ignore one!!) into any category. Just wanted to state that so that we are all clear on everything. Which, BTW, let me make one more point clear: telling someone they are judgmental based on one post isn't very nice, either. And I didn't say that all the dogs of those particular color are stupid. Again, I made it clear that I was speaking from MY experience only. Sorry I offended you.


Valid point. I obviously read it wrong then, and should not have used the word judgmental. My bad, and I apologize for making such a rash statement. I read it as brown poodles (as a whole) were in that category. Of course, I thought, not my girl! It is unfortunate that people would get a dog of a particular breed and/or color as a status symbol. If anyone should be judged, it should be them! How unfortunate for the poor dogs who end up with people such as that. 

I am so happy to hear that I took your post the wrong way. Phew! I was seriously thinking why would someone think that way?!


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

PoodlePowerBC said:


> I chose brown over black this time because of the mud factor in our environment


That is why I like brown too! I also picked out a ceramic tile floor for my kitchen that can disguise dirt pretty well too. Although, I don't ever like to see any on it anyways.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Tymaca said:


> Valid point. I obviously read it wrong then, and should not have used the word judgmental. My bad, and I apologize for making such a rash statement. I read it as brown poodles (as a whole) were in that category. Of course, I thought, not my girl! It is unfortunate that people would get a dog of a particular breed and/or color as a status symbol. If anyone should be judged, it should be them! How unfortunate for the poor dogs who end up with people such as that.
> 
> I am so happy to hear that I took your post the wrong way. Phew! I was seriously thinking why would someone think that way?!


 Apology accepted.  Nope, I'm not _that_ narrow minded.  I do my best to never ever lump any one type of people/race/dog/whatever all into the same category, whatever that category may be. In order to do that, I would have to meet every single individual, which would of course be impossible.  I'm sorry that I didn't make my original post more clear...I thought that I had stated pretty clearly that I was speaking from my experience, but then again I was looking at it from my perspective, so... 

Yep, I do feel bad for the dogs that are used as status symbols. Either they are not really cared for very well (and are therefore badly behaved) or are spoiled rotten without any training whatsoever. Again, makes for a badly behaved doggie.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> I was simply making the observation that most of the poodles of those colors that I have met are crazy and yes stupid, to a degree.


Stupid Poodles? I think you're just looking for trouble here ....this is the PoodleForum, but apology accepted.:angel:


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

PoodlePowerBC said:


> Stupid Poodles? I think you're just looking for trouble here ....this is the PoodleForum, but apology accepted.:angel:


 Not looking for trouble, simply making an observation. I, for one, do not have a problem admitting if my dog is stupid. I DO actually have one dog who is a bit crazy and stupid. She's not a poodle, far from it, but still. Does it mean I love her any less? Nope....just means we have to work harder and longer on the simplest things like sit and down.  And believe it or not there are some poodles that aren't terribly brainy out there; I've met them personally too. I personally believe that it's a combo of poor breeding and no training, so it's certainly not the dogs fault and it doesn't make them "less" than any other dog. So when I say "stupid", I simply mean that the dog has a harder time figuring things out. Maybe I should come up with a better term for it....people seem to not like the word stupid.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Tymaca said:


> Do you really think this? I just had to laugh out loud when I read this. Seriously. :argh:


No, I was being silly.  But what I was getting at was that it was more logical to try to draw a conclusion from this evidence the poster presented that the people were at fault and not the dogs. Horrible dogs are rarely born; they are more often made by horrible owners and bad or nonexistent experiences. I haven't personally noticed any trend in the temperaments of dogs of different colours.

I have only noticed that people who buy 'designer' mutts often tend to have badly behaved dogs, presumably because most of them research training methods with the same thoroughness as they research breeds and breeders.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

zyrcona said:


> No, I was being silly.  But what I was getting at was that it was more logical to try to draw a conclusion from this evidence the poster presented that the people were at fault and not the dogs. Horrible dogs are rarely born; they are more often made by horrible owners and bad or nonexistent experiences. I haven't personally noticed any trend in the temperaments of dogs of different colours.
> 
> I have only noticed that people who buy 'designer' mutts often tend to have badly behaved dogs, presumably because most of them research training methods with the same thoroughness as they research breeds and breeders.


 Totally agree with you here.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

mom 24, I bet I can guess which one of your dogs is " stupid"... your word, not mine. It's that little cute white one. LOL I have two shih tuz's and yes, for lack of a better word, " stupid" would not be far off. LOL


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Carley's Mom said:


> mom 24, I bet I can guess which one of your dogs is " stupid"... your word, not mine. It's that little cute white one. LOL I have two shih tuz's and yes, for lack of a better word, " stupid" would not be far off. LOL


 Haha, nope. He's not as smart as my poodle, but then again, who can top the #2 smartest breed?! (I think that's where poodles are. ) He's more willing to please than my poodle though. Trev is the kind of dog that is like "so what's in it for me?!" (he's getting better though...just this last week he learned that praise and some off leash time is just as good of a reward as food.) Dusty (Lhasa) just does it.  Actually it's the brown/red one on the very end, the one with the goofy look on her face.  She's quite the dog...love her to death, she has loads of personality. She's just not real smart. We call her "doofus" (mix between dumb and goofus.) and dumbbell all the time. All in good sport of course...it's not meant in a mean way.  Kinda like when I say to my other mix "get over here mutt!" or something like that.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

mom24doggies said:


> Maybe I should come up with a better term for it....people seem to not like the word stupid.


Totally agree with you here!! :nod:



And *Tymaca*, hats off to you for being so open-minded to listen to and hear another member's clarification of her views.:yo: Honestly, I don't know that I could have shown your grace in the same situation, I too really brislted at m24d's original post. _Good on you_, you clearly have as sweet a temperament as your brown spoo!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Hmmmm....obviously the very objectionable word in this whole thread is 'stupid.'

Let's take a look at the word stupid. 
1. lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2. characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless: a stupid question.
3. tediously dull, especially due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless: a stupid party.
4. annoying or irritating; troublesome: Turn off that stupid radio.
5. in a state of stupor; stupefied: stupid from fatigue.
adj: trivial, silly, or frivolous

Looking at this, I think that the definition you are referring to is #1 and #2 and the adjective silly. So, in fact, the word stupid would apply appropriately to your description of your experiences with browns and reds in theory.

Now, let's take a look at most people's perception of the word 'stupid.'
Using the word stupid has a very negative affect on most people as it is construed to mean something very negative and repulsive to them. Stupid is a very harsh word and is more often than not going to be taken as such. The word stupid is far more acceptable when referring to the actions of a person or dog and not the person or dog itself as being totally unintelligent. I know that all people do stupid things in their lives, but that does not make them stupid people.

To refer to dogs behaving in a stupid way is, at least, a bit softer than saying that the dogs are stupid. I also think that how a negative word like stupid is presented makes a big difference too. I would have much less of a negative reaction to someone saying that the brown and red dogs they groom seem to have something in common in that the behave in a stupid way by doing or being...(insert whatever it is here) than to read that brown and red dogs are stupid. Sometimes just a little more thought before speaking can make all the difference in the world.

I have heard this argument before on several occasions actually. I am not a believer in that personality in relationship to color is a given. There are many factors involved that lead to the end product, choice of breeding stock and temperament being at the top. If you breed dogs who tend to be silly and unable to focus, you are going to have more dogs with the same traits. If a breeder sells puppies to people who do not have the best interest of the puppy in mind, who will not socialize it, exercise it, challenge its mind; then you are going to get silly, uncontrollable dogs on your table. I abhor people who buy dogs for their status symbol without any care for its nurturing needs or even for the dog as a sentient being.

I know that there are dogs of all colors that have learning issues and behave in stupid ways. It is not normally because the animal is incapable of learning, but that something else has not gone right in either its breeding or its nurturing. I have seen my share of show dogs that seem incapable of coming down from a high and are perceived to be totally 'insane.' Some are bred this way (sadly,) some are crated for enormous amounts of time and can barely control themselves when they finally get out of their cage. This is not the fault of the dogs. 

We have a silver who has acted silly from the time we got him until just recently as he approached 2. He is now calmed down and rarely does anything that would be construed as stupid. We did refer to him lovingly as a doofus during this period. But, we always knew that he was not an unintelligent dog; just unable to contain himself very well and needed patience and training up. 

Okay...I'll get off my soapbox now..... _


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

Chagall's mom said:


> And *Tymaca*, hats off to you for being so open-minded to listen to and hear another member's clarification of her views.:yo: Honestly, I don't know that I could have shown your grace in the same situation, I too really brislted at m24d's original post. _Good on you_, you clearly have as sweet a temperament as your brown spoo!


You are too kind. I try not to ruffle feathers, but I was so mad when I read her original post, that I had to say something. I normally keep my mouth shut, but it just struck a chord. I also thought, if I was feeling that way, there had to be others. So, I voiced my opinion. I guess it's hard to get someone's point 100% accurate when reading it online, so I took the higher road and said that I was wrong. 

ps...Can you tell I am a social worker?!


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> Actually it's the brown/red one on the very end, the one with the goofy look on her face.


I am sorry, but I just had to laugh when you said it was the brown/red one. Of, course it is.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I just want to chime in here on behalf of the reds. Lucy Plum had her CGC at barely eleven months old. Betty-Jo (one of mine and Trillium's girls) had hers young and got it handily. Murphy in Germany is going through to be a Red Cross Search and Rescue dog, and to the best of our knowledge, will be the first red Standard in all of Europe to hold this remarkable position. Tigger, Dallas and others from our litters are endeavouring to become Therapy dogs. I cannot tell you how proud I am of my fur kids and Grandkids. Smart, solid and even tempered, reliable and trustworthy. Not a single one of them stupid or crazy.


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## ekbaby734 (Jul 1, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> . The toy screamed and thrashed for her legs/feet/ear plucking/bath.


I hate to snitch on my own dog- but hes horrible when it comes to grooming. Maybe its the fact that when I adopted him hes didn't look like he had been groomed much if at all in his life.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Not a single one of them stupid or crazy.


Ya, Cherie. But all them Reds got such a flaming temper, eh?  And my blonde Tonka?? Well he's mostly off in another world . . . only touching down sporadically in this one. 

Give me a brownette any day!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Wow, some of you people really seem to not understand when another person says "in my experience". I don't feel that anything I said indicated that I believed that _all_ reds and browns are stupid...even if I did, I'm entitled to my opinion and don't need to be put down for it. And I'm leaving it at that. In Chagall's words, y'all are making me bristle and I don't want to say something I regret. I appreciated Tymeca (sp?) apologizing for misreading my post...I agree that was very kind of her.

Edit to add: for the record Tymaca, my other brown/red dog is very intelligent..well, she used to be. Now she's 13.5 and is losing her mind a bit. But yes, it is kind of a funny coincidence...


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> Edit to add: for the record Tymaca, my other brown/red dog is very intelligent..well, she used to be. Now she's 13.5 and is losing her mind a bit. But yes, it is kind of a funny coincidence...


I am glad you get my sense of humor! Too funny. I had to say it. I just thought it was too funny considering all that went down with this thread!  Glad you share my way of thinking!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

mom24doggies said:


> Wow, some of you people really seem to not understand when another person says "in my experience". I don't feel that anything I said indicated that I believed that _all_ reds and browns are stupid...even if I did, I'm entitled to my opinion and don't need to be put down for it. And I'm leaving it at that. In Chagall's words, y'all are making me bristle and I don't want to say something I regret. I appreciated Tymeca (sp?) apologizing for misreading my post...I agree that was very kind of her.
> 
> Edit to add: for the record Tymaca, my other brown/red dog is very intelligent..well, she used to be. Now she's 13.5 and is losing her mind a bit. But yes, it is kind of a funny coincidence...


_I agree. You are definitely entitled to your opinion.

I responded because you, yourself, said that perhaps you could have used a better word than stupid. I was offering you some other options; not making a judgment on you. I also expressed my opinion on the color to temperament question that is frequently asked on forums in general; which was meant for anyone who reads it.

I understand stupid in the context that you meant it and was actually amused by it, but it didn't go over well with some, and I understand that too. I posted my response as a kind of tongue-in-cheek option. No flaming was intended._


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

spoospirit said:


> _I agree. You are definitely entitled to your opinion.
> 
> I responded because you, yourself, said that perhaps you could have used a better word than stupid. I was offering you some other options; not making a judgment on you. I also expressed my opinion on the color to temperament question that is frequently asked on forums in general; which was meant for anyone who reads it.
> 
> I understand stupid in the context that you meant it and was actually amused by it, but it didn't go over well with some, and I understand that too. I posted my response as a kind of tongue-in-cheek option. No flaming was intended._


 No, actually your post was great and I thought it was very kind.  I didn't take any offense to it. Some of the other posters were getting angry at me, which quite frankly, I don't get but hey, they didn't get me _either_ so I guess we are even.... And yes, I probably should have used a better word. I didn't realize that so many people have a problem with it, because the definition I think of is the #1 and #2, like you said. I'm not really sure what other word I should use....silly and goofy? Maybe I should just quit worrying what others think of me.  OR....I should post MY definition of stupid...that might work too.



> I am glad you get my sense of humor! Too funny. I had to say it. I just thought it was too funny considering all that went down with this thread! Glad you share my way of thinking!


 Oh believe me, I've thought to myself before "maybe it's just 'cause she's red..." but I know that's not true. I've met lots of red dogs of other breeds that were amazing...just no poodles.  BUT, as so many people have pointed out, they do exist...just not where I live.  

Yep, believe it or not I do have a sense of humor.  Seriously though, does anyone else get the feeling that maybe things got a little bit blown out of proportion? I mean, I've seen other threads on here that got waaaaay more heated and ugly, but still. Sometimes, it seems like no matter what you post on these dog (not just poodle) forums, you get flamed. So frustrating!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I think the word stupid has become the new swear word and people are very sensitive to its use. I was not invested in what you said because I have a silver dog but I do disagree with you. On another thread someone posted than silver dogs are known for being mean and they bite a lot. It made me angry because to me color affecting personality does not make sense to me and I know there is not a sweeter dog than my Swizzle. People do not like their dogs or kids criticized. I did not respond aggresively to the poster, as you say it is just that person's opinion, but some things just hit you wrong. You are just relating your experience and your opinion based on those experiences. Don't stop posting and remember some postings come of way more aggressive than they intend to be. (It is just a good thing you didn't say anything against silver).


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

CT Girl said:


> I think the word stupid has become the new swear word and people are very sensitive to its use. I was not invested in what you said because I have a silver dog but I do disagree with you. On another thread someone posted than silver dogs are known for being mean and they bite a lot. It made me angry because to me color affecting personality does not make sense to me and I know there is not a sweeter dog than my Swizzle. People do not like their dogs or kids criticized. I did not respond aggresively to the poster, as you say it is just that person's opinion, but some things just hit you wrong. You are just relating your experience and your opinion based on those experiences. Don't stop posting and remember some postings come of way more aggressive than they intend to be. (It is just a good thing you didn't say anything against silver).


 Oh, I won't stop posting.


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## SarainPA (Nov 18, 2011)

When I first started getting involved in Poodles...a lonnngggg time ago (1975), browns did have a rep for having temperment issues. The main colors were the blacks and white. Red/Apricots were known to be smaller with not great heads. Blues were considered a poor black with a "nice" name.

However, the reds/apricots/browns I see now are lovely. There have been a lot of breeders who have worked hard to correct issues in _all_ colors. Of course there are some BYB who don't care about these things and I think thats where the reputation comes in. 

My old blue lines were truely genetic blues and yet a very well known handler wanted to dye my top one black - he said she was finish easily that way!!! LOL! Needless to say, she was never dyed.

Just my 2 cents worth!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

mom24doggies said:


> Wow, some of you people really seem to not understand when another person says "in my experience". I don't feel that anything I said indicated that I believed that _all_ reds and browns are stupid...even if I did, I'm entitled to my opinion and don't need to be put down for it. And I'm leaving it at that. In Chagall's words, y'all are making me bristle and I don't want to say something I regret. I appreciated Tymeca (sp?) apologizing for misreading my post...I agree that was very kind of her.


I don't see anyone putting you down or disputing your right to your own opinion, they're simply expressing their own. Maybe it pays to be a little more "teflon" in how you take other's posts. You can use any words you choose, "stupid" in this instance, and define it however you wish--it's certainly your right. Just as others are entitled to bristle, whistle, feel it like a thistle, if they so choose. And I too will leave it at that.eace2:


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

All I have to say is look at our signature. 

to borrow a line from Forrest Gump - Stupid is as Stupid does.

Enough Said.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

You know, I still feel like a lot of those posting here are still under the assumption that I think all reds/browns are crazy/stupid/silly/goofy, whatever you want to call it. I don't!! That's merely been MY personal experience! 

And yes Chagall, some people HAVE been putting me down because they thought I was saying all browns/reds were stupid. I'm not getting my feelings hurt over it, though. I'm just trying to get people to understand where I'm coming from...



> I was not invested in what you said because I have a silver dog but I do disagree with you.


 How can you disagree with someone's experience? That was all I was trying to relate...that my experience HAD been that reds/browns weren't necessarily pleasant to be with. And you know what? They may have been fine if I wasn't trying to groom them. 

I agree with what SarainPA though...I think the browns/reds reputation is coming from BYBs that don't care. Maybe those are the dogs I'm coming into contact with. Who knows, I don't really ask where they got their dog.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Funny thing, eh? Today I listened to a show abt the profession of medicine. They were talking abt some old medical terms that are not used anymore. 

Idiot, Cretin . . . once Medical descriptions of certain problems. And perfectly acceptable in polite, even educated, society. Even I remember when some people were '*********'. Now they're all too pejorative. *And only partly 'coz we now have much better, more descriptive, terminology.*

I once used the word 'ignorance' in PF . . . in it's old fashioned, non-pejorative way. To mean simply a lack of understanding. Yet some people took that word the wrong way too. 

I've learned not to use it in here.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I am sorry that I was not clear with my post. I was not disagreeing with your experience, that would not make sense. I am disagreeing with the conclusion you reached based on your experiences. You have brought up a possible explaination of why you have experienced this poor behavior. Perhaps it is a result of inferior breeders of those colors in your area. Another possibility is that they have been poorly socialized. I like to go to shows and have seen poodles of all colors being groomed in preparation for the show and I have noticed no correlation between poor behavior and color. That is my experience. You are a groomer and have probably groomed lots of poodles and you have noticed a correlation between color and behavior. Your experiences are not wrong nor are mine. The conclusions we have reached are our opinions and thus may be disputed. I don't agree with your opinion and you don't agree with mine and that is OK. You have stated in your post that you are open minded. I am probably less so because a correlation between color and personality does not make sense to me in humans or in dogs but if a scientific study was conducted and I am wrong I would accept that.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

CT Girl said:


> I am sorry that I was not clear with my post. I was not disagreeing with your experience, that would not make sense. I am disagreeing with the conclusion you reached based on your experiences. You have brought up a possible explaination of why you have experienced this poor behavior. Perhaps it is a result of inferior breeders of those colors in your area. Another possibility is that they have been poorly socialized. I like to go to shows and have seen poodles of all colors being groomed in preparation for the show and I have noticed no correlation between poor behavior and color. That is my experience. You are a groomer and have probably groomed lots of poodles and you have noticed a correlation between color and behavior. Your experiences are not wrong nor are mine. The conclusions we have reached are our opinions and thus may be disputed. I don't agree with your opinion and you don't agree with mine and that is OK. You have stated in your post that you are open minded. I am probably less so but if I notice your trend I will post.


 OK, thanks for explaining. Although I would like you to quote the parts of post(s) that you feel I drew the conclusion that all browns/reds are stupid because of their color? I just am not seeing where you get that from what I wrote. Yes, I said that bad breeding/training was a possible issue. I just really am not sure...and honestly, I felt like THAT'S what I communicated...that I'd seen a correlation and had come to the conclusion that there were two possiblities a) poor breeding and training or b) all dogs of those colors were that way, which of course I DO understand isn't true because I can point out any number of people on this board who have amazing reds and browns. 

And out of curiosity, what do you mean by "if I notice your trend..."?


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Probably mainly from these:

Originally Posted by mom24doggies 
I was simply making the observation that most of the poodles of those colors that I have met are crazy and yes stupid, to a degree.

I, for one, do not have a problem admitting if my dog is stupid.


It implies that people that have brown and red poodles wont admit that their dogs are stupid and in your experience these poodles are. It would be logical to infer from what you have written that you believe brown and red poodles are stupid. I do feel my inferences are logical especially as I am not the only one to interpret your post that way. The word stupid, like it or not, has a very negative connotation. I was trying to get something done and did not really complete my thought with the if I notice your trend. I meant if there is objective data to support your point I would of course reconsider my viewpoint but now it appears that you are acknowledging that poor behavior at the grooming table is not due to color so we really are in agreement.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Wow, I've been so busy with the group buys--sorting and boxing--that I missed this thread. :confused3:

First, I'm a blonde with a redhead's temper (calm to rage mode in 0.6 seconds) , but *Mom24Doggie's* post didn't remotely rub me the wrong way. I read it as her expressing her experience with X, Y and Z. I didn't take it as an attack against all red, brown or whatever colored poodles. (For the record, I don't have a red or brown poodle! LOL) Maybe I'm just in a good mood or suffering some sort of packaging post traumatic stress.... 

Personally, I don't care what anyone says or thinks about poodle colors and temperament, because to my knowledge there's no scientific study proving any of our anecdotal observations, and thus it's pure speculation. Sure, it's interesting to hear what others have experienced, and I often look at Alex, my black MPOO, and wonder why I didn't get all blacks because he's brilliant. 

I think *Mom24doggies* realizes that her perception of 'stoopid' is not shared or understood by all (ie., stupid), and she's explained her views, so I vote we move onwards and upwards. Agree to disagree and love our poodles no matter what their color. Tomorrow is Thanksgiving after all.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Yes, as I mentioned before I am a redhead and you gets lots of teasing so this touches a cord in me. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

CT Girl said:


> Probably mainly from these:
> 
> Originally Posted by mom24doggies
> I was simply making the observation that most of the poodles of those colors that I have met are crazy and yes stupid, to a degree.
> ...


OK, the first quote, IMO, cannot be used because I stated that that was my experience. That the poodles of that color that *I* had met were that way. 



> I was simply making the observation that most of the poodles of those colors *that I have met* are crazy and yes stupid, to a degree.


The second one, ok, I could see where there was some confusion. What I was addressing was the use of the word 'stupid', how people were taking it pretty badly (which, obviously, that word has pretty negative conotations now...I was not previously aware of that.) and that I didn't understand...that I had no problem calling my dog stupid. Because *to me*, it's not _necessarily_ negative. I was NOT trying to imply that people with brown and red poodles were in denial about their dogs'.  I do sincerely apologize to those who took it that way. So does that clear things up? 

OK, so _now_ my question is this: why, if color does not affect temperament, do the poorly bred blacks (for example) seem to be ok temperament wise? For example, remember the black and brown siblings I told y'all about in my original post? They were not what I would call well-bred. Had pretty lousy conformation. And yet, the black one's temperament was fine while his brother was crazy. THAT is what really confuses me. And this is an honest question...I'm not trying to make a point or anything.  

Thanks for not misreading my original post Rowan.  And I'm like you....a brunette who can go from 0-60 in nothing flat. (Nothing like watching a brunette flash green fire from her eyes. ) Just had to insert that....I thought your description of yourself was hilarious.  



> Personally, I don't care what anyone says or thinks about poodle colors and temperament, because to my knowledge there's no scientific study proving any of our anecdotal observations, and thus it's pure speculation.


 Right.  Can't argue with you there. 



> I think Mom24doggies realizes that her perception of 'stoopid' is not shared or understood by all (ie., stupid), and she's explained her views, so I vote we move onwards and upwards. Agree to disagree and love our poodles no matter what their color.


 Haha, yep, I think that's been beat into my brain quite thoroughly.  I honestly had no idea it was such a negative term.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> OK, so _now_ my question is this: why, if color does not affect temperament, do the poorly bred blacks (for example) seem to be ok temperament wise? For example, remember the black and brown siblings I told y'all about in my original post? They were not what I would call well-bred. Had pretty lousy conformation. And yet, the black one's temperament was fine while his brother was crazy. THAT is what really confuses me. And this is an honest question...I'm not trying to make a point or anything.


I have come to the conclusion that color has no bearing on temperament. Instead, we have to consider....

...are you ready for this??


Astrology! LOL

Okay, put down the phone. I haven't come off the rails.  

My brain was working in overdrive as I taped up boxes and watched my poodles, who were watching me and trying to "help." (Not so much.)

Alex is a Virgo, Pippin is a Sagittarius and Merlin is a Leo. (I happen to be an Aries, so we have three fire signs under one roof.) I'm going to research their signs as Alex is the calm, cool & collected one, while Pippin and Merlin are firecrackers, and Merlin saunters around like he really thinks he's King of the Poodles. I could be on to something here.  



> Posted by *CT Girl*:
> Yes, as I mentioned before I am a redhead and you gets lots of teasing so this touches a cord in me. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


I hear you! We all have our red button issues and there's nothing wrong with a lively debate. 
HAPPY THANKSGIVING, Poodle Peeps!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Rowan said:


> I have come to the conclusion that color has no bearing on temperament. Instead, we have to consider....
> 
> ...are you ready for this??
> 
> ...



_LMBO!! You'll have to start another thread to let us know how that experiment goes!!

Happy Thanksgiving to all!_


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

mom24doggies said:


> You know, I still feel like a lot of those posting here are still under the assumption that I think all reds/browns are crazy/stupid/silly/goofy, whatever you want to call it. I don't!! That's merely been MY personal experience!
> 
> And yes Chagall, some people HAVE been putting me down because they thought I was saying all browns/reds were stupid. I'm not getting my feelings hurt over it, though. I'm just trying to get people to understand where I'm coming from...
> 
> ...



It sounds to me then that you are "experiencing" being misunderstood. I think you've devoted some good energy and time to clarifying your original intent and POV. I maintain my opinion that no one is "puttiing you down," but rather putting up very civilly with your desire to try to make yourself understood, and doing likewise on their own behalf. But again, you are well entitled to experience things as you do. There's no need for consensus or agreement, IMO, other than to allow for others. I am glad your feelings are not getting hurt, no one's need be.

I am_ not _a groomer, and I am fairly new to poodles (2 1/2 years). I personally have not experienced, observed or been told by anyone who appears reputable to me of any difference in temperaments between colors of poodles. 

I have enjoyed this spirited discussion. It's not about being 'right' or having the last word, for me it's about the total kick of having people_ so invested_ in poodles that they _want _to spend their time sharing their views like this! Yup, another thing to be "thankful" for on this bright and sunny Thanksgiving Day, as well as not being a turkey myself!! (of course you're fee to think I am!)


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Chagall's mom said:


> ! (of course you're fee to think I am!)


*Oops!* I may not gobble, but I goofed!:embarrassed: Obviously meant to type *"free"*! And you will be, of me, until after the holiday! 
*HAPPY THANKSGIVIN**G!!*


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Chagall's mom said:


> It sounds to me then that you are "experiencing" being misunderstood. I think you've devoted some good energy and time to clarifying your original intent and POV. I maintain my opinion that no one is "puttiing you down," but rather putting up very civilly with your desire to try to make yourself understood, and doing likewise on their own behalf. But again, you are well entitled to experience things as you do. There's no need for consensus or agreement, IMO, other than to allow for others. I am glad your feelings are not getting hurt, no one's need be.


 Oh believe me, I've experienced being misunderstood, it's happened to me many times before...
OK, you can be of the opinion that no one's putting me down...that's fine with me.  I think that now that we all understand each other better, I'm not being put down...however, I _did_ have people calling me judgmental and (basically) less then a child. Granted, it was apologized for, which I appreciate, but still. To me, labeling a person is putting them down...but that's just MO. 
I don't exactly see how I'm "entitled to experience things as I do"...mainly because what I experience in life isn't necessarily under my control.  And you are right, no one has to agree with me or any one else....but I do think it's nice when everyone at the least understands each other.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Is this thread seriously still happening!?


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_TURKEY! IT'S TURKEY DAY!! We should all be eating turkey today along with our furies. :hungry:_


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Is this thread seriously still happening!?


I hear you CM! And _no_, it's not "seriously still happening for me," but you still may want to avert your eyes now....

This thread reminded me of when my kids were young and argued _endlessly _over whether one color of M&M's (say, brown and red) tasted better than another. It got SO HEATED my husband and I set up a "blind" taste test for them. There was no clear winner, but my youngest, prone to sticking his guns, _insisted_ we somehow cheated in the testing. So, my mother, a well-regarded biology teacher, was "drafted" to re-do the blind taste test. Again, no clear winner! My son then swore off M&M's for life, saying he liked Reese's Pieces better anyway. To this day I give him a GIANT bag of M&M's on his birthday (he's 37) and we have a _seriously_ good giggle over it! :laugh:


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## pudel luv (Jan 23, 2010)

Chagall's mom said:


> This thread reminded me of when my kids were young and argued _endlessly _over whether one color of M&M's (say, brown and red) tasted better than another. It got SO HEATED my husband and I set up a "blind" taste test for them. There was no clear winner, but my youngest, prone to sticking his guns, _insisted_ we somehow cheated in the testing. So, my mother, a well-regarded biology teacher, was "drafted" to re-do the blind taste test. Again, no clear winner! My son then swore off M&M's for life, saying he liked Reese's Pieces better anyway. To this day I give him a GIANT bag of M&M's on his birthday (he's 37) and we have a _seriously_ good giggle over it! :laugh:


Seriously HILARIOUS, Chagall's Mom.

Great Story !!!


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Is this thread seriously still happening!?


I kind of forgot about this thread since I haven't gotten any new notifications until today. Last I read, we were on page 3. Oy vey! :blabla:


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## Umphreym (Nov 21, 2011)

*Really?*

I have a "brown one" too. He is definitely different from my white boy, but I would never call him crazy...well, I have, but only in fun. He is more mischievious, more curious and more active than my white poodle was. However, I think Polo is extremely intelligent. He often reminds me of the really smart kid in the class that is beyond what the rest of the class is learning. He is bored, so he acts out. He needs a challenge. If I keep him active, play "smart" games with him and make him think, he is much better behaved. I wonder if it similar to people...where extremely intelligent and mentally unstable or "crazy" are very close...there is a fine line. My groomer loves Polo and tells me so every time I pick him up. With some guidance, he has learned to lie still when I brush him, even the legs. He has to know he is getting something out of it, so I remind and treat...he is great! I wouldn't trade him for the world. I love every poodle I meet, no matter the color and I appreciate each personality. How boring life would be if we all were the same, right?


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

PoodlePowerBC said:


> :alberteinstein:Where do people get their info???
> 
> I met a lady in the village while I was walking the dogs, and she commented on Russell, saying what a nice looking dog he was. I thanked her and in joking (kinda) said for some reason he's lost all the training he's learned in the last year ... I think the snow erased it :banghead: She says it's because he's brown. :bird: I really didn't think I'd heard her properly, but yes ... "It's because he's brown" What was her reasoning we ask .... she is a groomer, and notices this in all the creams, browns, reds blaa blaa blaa. Only the blacks and whites are well behaved dogs. She babbled on about pigments and how all these dogs are new colors and have been bred to be bad behaved, and there is nothing I can do about it. There was no arguing the point ... she knew it all!:bolt:


She probably met one brown she didn't like and then classified all colored poodles in the same category of "un-behaved". I've seen people tend to do that with dogs... they meet one mean dog in a breed and then they condemn the whole breed. With Ponki being a small dog people automatically assume she's a yappy little dog - but she's the complete opposite. They are often surprised when she walks up wagging her tail... kiss them on the leg and then walk away.


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