# Bloody Diarrhea



## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

I was away for a day and a half visiting my daughter, and I left Dulcie in the care of a pet hotel that I have used before with happy results.

When I picked Dulcie up yesterday, she seemed fine - energetic, happy to see me, hungry, etc. However, when we got home last night, she was so frantic to potty that she actually pulled on her leash in the garage and finally hurried to a corner, squatted and had explosive diarrhea with blood! I was shocked and al\armed, naturally.

I got her to the apartment, dropped our bags and took her to her potty place - luckily I brought several paper towels as well. Although there was little volume, she went to several spots and strained slightly for a few moments and managed to eject a tiny amount of watery stool followed by bright red blood.

It was Sunday night - and getting late. So I tried to assess her as objectively as I could. There had been no report of illness from the kennel at pick up, and she seemed otherwise bright and well. SO I decided to watch and wait, offer her a tiny bland meal (which she scarfed down) and see how things went.

Overnight, she needed potty breaks at 11:30, 3:00 AM and again at 6:00 AM. The stools were a little better-formed and far less blood, thankfully. However, before the 6AM outing, I awoke to hearing her retching. She didn't actually vomit, but coughed up some mucous. 

I have already boiled chicken this morning and rice, too. Although I don't intend to feed her until tonight. I am unsure whether to call the vet or watch and wait today (she seems slightly less active than normal - and tired after the broken night's sleep but mostly her usual self and also is acting hungry). I have read older threads on here and I understand that stress and a change in diet can cause symptoms like this (and she had both this weekend). I brought her own kibble, but she has also been switched over gradually to a raw diet this past several weeks and hasn't had kibble at all for about two weeks.

ARGH! One part of me says call the vet at once - and the other part of me says, hang on - if it is caused by stress, that will only add stress. She seems mostly fine except for the diarrhea (which is improving) so wait and watch, feed a bland diet starting tonight and just keep things calm.

What would you do?


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I would call the vet now. Could be stress colitis, but could be a lot of other things too. I've had two dogs in the emergency vet with GI issues- one had hemmorhagic Gastroenteritis and one had pancreatitis. Both needed acute emergent treatment. It's a weekday- so that makes it easier. That's what I would do- wouldn't take a chance. And I am not someone that rushes to the vet for every little thing. Good luck- let us know.


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Not very helpful, but I'd panic!! I'd be down the vets straight away, even if it was to be told there's nothing wrong  But then I am a worrier and err on the better safe than sorry side of the coin.

Hope she feels better soon.

Hugs


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Blood in the stool is a vet trip for me. Maaaybe if it was a very slight amount I would wait it out, but you make it sound like there was significant blood in multiple movements. It's possible she picked up an illness recently because of the stress caused by a diet change and stay at the kennel, or maybe she ate something she shouldn't have. Either way, bloody stool warrants a vet trip. Call ahead first and give them a heads up about her symptoms because I would guess that they will not want her walking around in the general waiting room in case it's something contagious.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Good point about letting them know ahead of time. She is pretty sleepy here now. Hard to tell if it's her normal morning snoozing (funny how worry makes even normal stuff seem different suddenly). I think I'll call the vet just to be on the safe side.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

nifty said:


> Good point about letting them know ahead of time. She is pretty sleepy here now. Hard to tell if it's her normal morning snoozing (funny how worry makes even normal stuff seem different suddenly). I think I'll call the vet just to be on the safe side.


Sending healing thoughts to Dulcie. Let us know how it turns out! :hug:


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thank you!

Vet says to do what I am doing -- watch and wait and offer chicken and rice tonight. If any change for the worse call right back - however, since her tail is up, she seems cheerful and otherwise OK, they think it probably was the change in food/kennel weekend.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Has she chewed any pigs ears or anything sharp like that? If it's bright red blood, it's coming from her intestines, not stomach, which would be blackish. I hope it's nothing serious but yeah...I'd be going to the vet for that right away. And I'm also not one to run to the vet or the doctor (for humans) for every little thing. I do hope it's nothing. Let us know. Sending positive vibes your way. Arrrgghh! These dogs do cause a lot of worry, don't they. :argh:


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

I didn't send anything like that to the kennel with her - I am always concerned about her chewing something without constant supervision, so I don't even send things like that with her if she is going to be away from me overnight in someone else's care. She did have some outdoor playtime with other dogs - and there may have been toys out there or whatever - I guess it would be possible that she managed to find something and swallow it (although I think they are pretty vigilant there about that sort of thing lying around).

Well, I did call as soon as the vet office opened and they said wait and watch -- DUlcie is sound asleep here and I am watching her all right - every little twitch!

I think around lunchtime, after I take her out again, if there is no change, I will call the vet back and arrange to have her seen. I don't think I want her to go through another night without my knowing what is going on. Even if the vet thinks I am silly (which hopefully he won't be like that or it will be time to find another vet!), I would rather be able to relax a little tonight and just help Dulcie manage things. I don't mind taking her out through the night, but knowing it is OK and running its course would make those outings far less stressful. (Normally, she sleeps soundly from about 11 PM to 8 or even later the next morning).


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## joey1967 (Aug 26, 2015)

My pup was pretty sick when I brought her in without blood or wrenching, just diarrhea I did have a cat once that caught a very bad virus at a cattery that was very reputable and had to be treat asap. Better safe than sorry.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

*She is pretty relaxed!*

She doesn't look uncomfortable!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

nifty said:


> She doesn't look uncomfortable!


I'll say she doesn't!  So good to see that! :thumb:


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## snmim (Sep 7, 2015)

Your Dulcie looks beautiful even sleeping contorted like that! I hope everything's alright.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Dogs pooping blood isn't as significant as if it were a human. I would wait and see, especially if she is getting better. Metronidazole is a great medication to have in the medicine cabinet if things don't improve. A couple of doses can get them feeling better very quickly. Still, I prefer. to let things run their course naturally though if at all possible. Get better quick Dulcie. Poor kid. 

pr


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

How is she doing ? Still doing well, I hope ! Or maybe you're at the vet's by now ?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Lily had a similar (like almost identical) episode back in July. I took her to an emergency vet that was well recommended by a member of the show committee where we were. They gave her flagyl (metronidazole) plus an antibacterial antibiotic and flora stor. She got the first dose of flagyl before we hit the road to head for home and was much better even on the trip. In the long run, since all her tests came back negative, I think it was stress from taking her away right after Javelin came home. I miscalculated the level of stress having him new in the house would add to the rigors of the road and the trial for her.

I hope Dulcie is already feeling better.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Call your vet and see if you can just pick up some metronidazole and some prostora if they have it. It is best to just nip these things in the bud then to let them drag on for a couple of days. 
I always keep those things in the house and will start at the second messy poop, and they are usually all better in a day.
If you wait a day or two, the treatment can take a week or more than o be effective.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Another thing that has helped Ari post-diarrhea (which she's had a couple of times at this point) is raw green tripe. It may even have helped stop her most recent diarrhea episode... hard to say. At the least the tripe seems to prevent it, since she's been having more consistent stools since I started using it. Tripe has probiotics in it similar to the commercial formulated probiotics that you can get from the vet. We've been using K9 Natural lamb freeze-dried but there are other forms available. I mix a small bit in with her kibble every day and use it as training treats. Ari says it's delicious, probably because it smells like a dirty barn, lol.

And x4 on the metronidazole. I also keep some in my 'kit' and give it to Ari early in a diarrhea episode to try to head it off before it spins out of control.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks everyone. Dulcie seems to be staying mostly the same and the only thing that is concerning me really is that she doesn't seem to be passing any stool* today (in spite of a tiny meal of rice and chicken around noon - which she did not finish--hmm) and I am beginning to wonder if she has a blockage of some sort. I think I am going to go ahead and see if I can have her seen by the vet this afternoon after all. Certainly, we will skip Obedience class tonight, because whatever is going on, I don't think she should be in close quarters with other dogs. 

She is also not acting miserable but neither is she acting her usual lively self -- and that tail is not quite all the way up anymore either. Something is off, and although it might just be the stress of the weekend, I think I would rather have the peace of mind of seeing the vet before office hours are done and night comes!

* she does however, pass small amounts of bloody mucus - sorry if TMI! But that kind of has me concerned about a blockage of some sort.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

nifty said:


> Thanks everyone. Dulcie seems to be staying mostly the same and the only thing that is concerning me really is that she doesn't seem to be passing any stool today (in spite of a tiny meal of rice and chicken around noon - which she did not finish--hmm) and I am beginning to wonder if she has a blockage of some sort. I think I am going to go ahead and see if I can have her seen by the vet this afternoon after all. Certainly, we will skip Obedience class tonight, because whatever is going on, I don't think she should be in close quarters with other dogs.
> 
> She is also not acting miserable but neither is she acting her usual lively self -- and that tail is not quite all the way up anymore either. Something is off, and although it might just be the stress of the weekend, I think I would rather have the peace of mind of seeing the vet before office hours are done and night comes!


Sounds like a good call. Hoping for good news!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Well, they are booked solid today and can't see her until the morning. I asked for their 24 hour vet referral number in case I decide to call later tonight. So I have that and the address just in case.

I am going to take Dulcie out for another little walk right now and take her ball. That will surely give me an idea how she is really feeling! (Obviously, I will not be doing anything too strenuous with her). Thanks for all the feedback, everyone!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I doubt a blockage. The diarrhea will really empty them out - it can take a few days for them to poop again, especially when you are feeding white rice.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I doubt a blockage. The diarrhea will really empty them out - it can take a few days for them to poop again, especially when you are feeding white rice.


I was just about to post this very thing. It will take a while to "fill 'er up" again. I know from experience how difficult and worrying this is. Hang in there, maybe a quiet night will settle things down some by morning. Stress of change can do terrible things to both people and pets.

Hope it continues to go in the right direction. Your girl is lovely and I do love her "unique" sleep position. Made me smile.

Hang in there .....Viking Queen


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Piper had something when we first got her that sounds very similar. An explosive, bloody diarrhea, then loose stool interspersed with stools that appeared to be gelatinous mucous with occasional spots of blood. She was prescribed metroniodazle for a gastrointestinal infection and cleared up with a few days (though had pudding stools for a few more days afterward)

I hope she gets to feeling better soon!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

This sounds like HGE to me. Carley almost died when I did not know what was going on and waited to long to take her to the vet. Make sure you don't let her dehydrate, she could go into shock and die. Google HGE and you will get a lot of info. So sorry, keep us posted.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

We had a walk and a short game of fetch - she was eager to play and doesn't seem to have any pain. Still wanting to pop and nothing coming but a little bloody mucus. 

Since she is not vomiting and is drinking water and seems somewhat interested in food, I am going to give her another tiny meal and see how that goes. She seems to be definitely "off" but not severely distressed, in fact pretty mellow - so I think we are safe to wait and watch. I've got the emergency vet number if I need it.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Sorry to read she's under the weather. Poor girl. Does she have an appointment tomorrow?


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Yes, I have an appointment in the morning, subject to how she fares overnight. I also have the emergency vet address and phone number - they are 24 hour, so we are covered if anything seems to be getting worse.

She also seems to have a dripping nose -- I guess it actually could be some kind of virus. I don't know. Overall, she seems mostly to be feeling fairly normal. It's kind of hard to tell if I should be concerned or just let it run its course. I would definitely be more concerned if she was acting sick, but she is not really. Just a little quieter and leaning into me, etc. Her tummy feels OK - not swollen or extra hard or anything (although again, hard to tell, as she is very slender and kind of has a pretty taut tummy anyway).

Man, I wish dogs could talk sometimes! :S


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

nifty said:


> ...Man, I wish dogs could talk sometimes!


Careful what you wish for!  I wish you and Dulcie a calm, easy night and for her to rebound quickly.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I respectfully disagree with the poster... that blood in stools isn't as significant as it is in humans. If it's dark or black, it can mean internal bleeding. If it's bright red, it can be any number of things. I hope you don't take veterinary advice over the Internet and get thee to the vet. I agree with Carly'smom that it is could be something like she mentioned. If it is there's no time to waste. There are some parasites (coccidia) that can cause bloody diarrhea. My little Chihuahua almost died from a pig's ear which scratched up her intestines. She had bloody diarrhea. That's why I never feed any of that kind of stuff anymore. Hopefully it's an infection or some kind of colitis (which is not uncommon at all) that can be treated easily and soon. Crossing my fingers for a speedy recovery for a not too serious ailment.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Carley's Mom said:


> This sounds like HGE to me. Carley almost died when I did not know what was going on and waited to long to take her to the vet. Make sure you don't let her dehydrate, she could go into shock and die. Google HGE and you will get a lot of info. So sorry, keep us posted.



It's all HGE, it is just a matter of how severe and long it goes on which determines if it is something that can be managed at home or if they need to be admitted for supportive care.
Very common in the little ones.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

How is she doing this morning? I hope okay.


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Been thinking about you and Dulcie. Hope things are improving and do let us know what the vet says. 

Big hugs from here :hug:


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Hi Everyone, Dulcie is pretty sick. I was up late keeping an eye on her and she seemed like she was going to sleep normally - although she again whispered to go potty around 1:30 AM. When we went, she wasn't able to pass anything more than a few drops of body mucus. She wasn't vomiting really at any point since this began except for one brief episode of retching with nothing coming up except a little foamy stuff. She acted hungry and I thought maybe it was actually stomach bile because she hadn't had barely anything to eat, so I gave her a tiny amount of boiled chicken and rice - she ate the chicken slowly but not the rice. Kept it down.

The absence of vomiting and the almost nothing from the other end, made me think it was OK to wait until this morning to take her in to see the vet. I did read about the HGE and it seemed like although she was showing some signs (the bloody diarrhea), she had virtually none of the "profuse vomiting" which is supposed to be the first sign, so I thought we were OK.

When I heard her taking a drink from her bowl, I thought AH, she is feeling better now. She settled by my bed and sighed and seemed to be going to sleep and I was so exhausted that I fell into a deep sleep. Unfortunately.

Around 7Am, Dulcie nudged me and stared at me and I got up quickly to take her out - and OMG. The apartment looked like a crime scene. I don't know how it all happened without my hearing anything (although she mainly did it all out in the kitchen and living room). I am talking little rivers of blood. I was horrified and called the vet office immediately - they said sorry we can't see her until 11:30 (our appointment) and I said Ok I may just take her to the emergency vet. She is really sick. And they said Hang on. Then they came back and said you can bring her in at 10 and we will try to squeeze her in. I said Good ok. I needed that 45 minutes to start the cleanup anyway - and Dulcie was just lying i her bed but with her head up and watching me. 

At the vet, they weighed her and she has lost about 3 pounds. No fever. Pale gums .etc. The vet said she suspected HGE and wanted to keep her for the day to do IV fluids. Also x-ray and blood work. I said yes, of course.

The X-rays looked OK and now she is there being given intravenous fluids. I am supposed to hear from the vet sometime today for an update and results of tests. I am supposed to pick Dulcie up after 6 and they will probably be sending her home with medications.

Still don't know for sure what the diagnosis is. My poor girl is really sick. She was lying on the surgery floor and the vet said, Does she normally lie flat out like this? I said she usually sleeps or lies around a good part of the day while I am working on my computer - that is our routine (walk in morning, breakfast and then she lies around dozing while I work -- then midday short walk, more work and dozing and then around 3:30 we get out for at least a 2 hour walk and playtime/training). So Dulcie lying around in the daytime is not atypical - but Dulcie lying on a floor away from home IS atypical. When she is out and about, she is usually alert and interested.

I guess I will have to wait and see.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Poor Dulcie. Hopefully the IV and medications will turn things around quickly. I think you were right to get her into the vet ASAP this morning and that you've done a good job handling this so far.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

So glad she is getting treated ! She should be okay now. My Carley has had this 3 times, she is 11 years old. The first time, like you, I did not realized how sick she was and let it go too long before going to the vet and could have lost her. I have changed my ways now... if I see any blood I start her on Metronidazole. You can order this from Revival Animal Health , you have to get it from the fish section, but it is the same stuff the vets use. I alway have some on hand. 

My dogs are good eater, if they skip a meal I am on high alert as well. That will always be your first sign. I have a needle and fluid bags if I need them on hand, but thankfully, I have never had to use it. 

Keep us posted. I am so sorry! I have been there. My thread was," Carley almost died last night", if you want to read what we went through. It was so scary!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh dear...she sounds like one sick pup. I'm so sorry she feels so awful. It sounds like she lost quite a bit of blood. I hope they'll be able to treat her successfully and soon. Continued good vibes coming your way.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am sorry to hear you had such an alarming morning. Poor Dulcie. I am sure she is getting great care and you were very vigilant in getting on her care. Since you take great care of her you know she started from a position of health and that will help her recover.

Do please update when you can. Lily, Javelin and I are sending good poodle vibes, Peeves too!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Carley's mom thank you - yes, it sounds like your and Carley's experience was very similar to mine and Dulcie's!

The vet just called. She said Dulcie is looking a lot better and brighter on the IV - they took her out briefly and she was trying to be playful (this is the thing - she was like that this whole time! It is difficult to get a read on how your dog is doing if she is sort of off but also mostly still acting normal! ).

The diagnosis is HGE - and she lost a fair bit of blood. However, her blood work has come back showing dehydration and some concentration of red blood cells or something, but no signs of anything amiss with her organs etc. In other words, the vet does not think there is any underlying issue.

She told me to push my pick up time as late as possible (they close at 7) and then to plan on bringing Dulcie back tomorrow for another day of IV treatment. She thinks Dulcie will need another full day of treatment there to restore her and then after that I can continue to maintain the treatment at home with oral medication and bland diet. I am really glad I can have her home overnight - and I am washing her crate bedding right now to make it all fresh for her when she gets home. 

Thank you all for your continued good wishes. We can't be sure what brought this on for Dulcie as there are several potential triggers - she was in a boarding facility for 36 hours while I had a very quick visit with my daughter in Minnesota - so stress is possible (although she has never had any stress-related illness from previous stays) and also, she had a kibble diet this weekend after switching successfully to human grade raw over the past month. The kibble was one of her usual kibbles (Wellness Core) which I provided to the kennel - and one which has never given her a problem in the past.

I guess it is possible that the stress of boarding PLUS the return to kibble after her enthusiastic switch to raw may have been two stresses too many at once for Dulcie. I am so surprised and shocked, because my girl is a very mellow and not easily stressed pup. Now I know, though - even a "bomb-proof" dog is not really bomb proof! She is a living creature after all, and things can change or new stresses can pile up and overwhelm even the mellowest dog.

Thanks for the support, PF friends!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That all sounds very good! I am sure she will be very happy to be home with you this evening.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

So glad she's on the mend! I'm sure PF members all around the world have been hoping to hear such good news.


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Oh thank you for a positive update, even though she still has a ways to go.

Poor Dulcie, and poor you for finding the scene of the "massacre" - it must have been terrifying.

I know just what you mean about not spotting illness in a mellow dog - we have the same problem with Pushkin. I reckon you could chop his leg off and all he would do is groan... very hard to spot general unwellness.

Do let us know how things go on... meantime we will keep sending positive PF vibes - the best medicine for poodle and people!!

:hug:


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

So glad to hear Dulcie is on the mend........must've have been soooo terrifying for you!!! Get Well Dulcie!!!!!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Yes, the stress of change, even if it is a totally happy one can keep them revved up enough to start it.
Please from now on keep the meds in the house and start them at the first sign of trouble, believe me it makes a huge difference in how severe it will get.
So glad to hear that she is getting better!
PS, if you don't want to use fishzole, you can have the vet order the exact dosage for her compounded, much easier to keep around than the liquid!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am so glad to hear she is stabilised and improving - my neighbours lost a much loved Great Dane to HGE. It can escalate with frightening speed.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

How frightening! I can imagine your distress waking up to a crime scene. No known cause caught my attention when I Googled it. Could be stress, could be something else. She's getting good care and should be better soon. Such a relief! Those of us who have never experienced this with our dogs, now know the symptoms and have a diagnosis to suggest, thanks to Carley's Mom and poor Dulcie's recent experience.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

So glad she's getting under control. That was very scary, wasn't it. Poor, sweet Ducie. Lots of continued get well wishes coming.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

So glad she's doing better! It's always a hard call- do I bring them in or not? When Lily had HGE, it was obvious. Thank God the emergency vet is only 20 minutes away. When the signs are more subtle- it's much harder. Now tonight- treat yourself to something nice- this must have been very stressful!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

get well dulcie. keep the faith, nifty.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

*Home for the night!*

I've got my girl home safe and sound! She is so tired and not happy about the cone - but of course it is necessary as they sent her home with the catheter still in place (and well wrapped).

Amazing to think that just over 24 hours ago she seemed almost normal - the diarrhea seemed to be ended and she wanted to play - then the overnight horror and now here she is home, tired and scheduled to return for 12 hours of IV fluids and meds again tomorrow. Hopefully, she has turned the corner though. The vet and techs all loved her, I am happy to say! 

Here she is yesterday evening at the park and now tonight, just back from the vet hospital.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Awwww...you must be a wreck with all that's transpired so quickly. It is good that she is in such capable hands...yours and the vet's. How nice that she was such a hit with everyone. Who would doubt it though? She's darling.

It is good that she is home for the night. Thanks for keeping us posted. I will be thinking of you guys and waiting for more good news. What a scare. (((hugs)))


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Wow, what you went through sounds rather scary, glad she is on the mend!!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Good Morning PF, I am sorry to say that the news this morning is not as good as I hoped. 

Dulcie had a very quiet night last night - and I spent most of it sitting by her and stroking her - but with little response from her. She didn't even want to get up to go potty, although I did help her up at one point to make sure she at least had the chance to go. At bedtime, she did not want to budge from her bed in the living room. I had to lift her and carry her to her crate - and she did not move muscle, struggle or lift her head or in any way attempt to either help or protest. Very concerning.

I brought her in first thing this morning for her second day of IV. As I was driving home, the vet called and said she was dismayed to find that Dulcie's exam revealed that she is exactly back to where she was yesterday morning - pale, still dehydrated and lethargic. 

So the plan is another full day of IV and maybe tomorrow too. The vet is going to keep the catheter in even when she sends Dulcie home possibly to continue home care and oral meds, in case she needs to go back for another IV session.

I won't lie. I am seriously concerned.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Hope she feels better soon! Poor baby! Of course, if she continues to be lethargic I would have an ACTH stim test done to rule out AD.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh no....this is not good. I'm so sorry. I agree...she should be checked for Ad. Didn't the vet do that? Gosh, I hope things will get figured out and turned around. I'll be thinking of you and Dulcie today and hoping for some answer to this and improvement.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

Oh dear Nifty, this is not good news. Do you think it's time for another opinion? Or to escalate things with the vet? It just seems that the symptomatic treatment may not be quite enough. The day at the vets will surely help but maybe they should be looking for something else.

In any case, prayers and healing thoughts for Dulcie and you.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

As marialydia says, maybe it's time for another opinion. Are you close to a university/teaching vet hospital? Perhaps your vet would refer Dulcie for immediate attention.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I am so sorry for poor Dulcie ! I am wondering why the vet is not willing to keep her for the night ? It seems to me she would be better cared for in the hospital? Not that you're not doing a good job, but you don't have everything the clinic has on hand, nor the expertise of a vet.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Most vets offices don't have staff there over night. Many people leave their dogs overnight thinking they are being monitored when they are not. If the hospital is staffed overnight then leaving them might be a good thing, but otherwise it is in my opinion best to bring them home or take them to an emergency clinic where they can be monitored all night.

I am so sorry she is not better. I agree, this thing needs to be escalated. I agree with the addison test and did they ever do exrays?


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks for the support, everyone. I wondered about the overnight, too, and I think the answer is that there is no support staff staying at the clinic overnight. Also, the vet I saw yesterday and today is a new one (though the one who saw DUlcie before is also a new vet to us - but recommended by our previous vet after we moved). The vet was the only vet on staff yesterday and for all I know today, too. She seems kind of overworked, although I have to hand it to her, she spent a lot of time with me and Dulcie discussing her situation, so I cannot fault her for that.

I think when she calls later to give me an update, if there is no real improvement, I will ask about possibly seeing about a transfer to a full time hospital. Yesterday, the vet DID say that when necessary they do transport animals to a bigger facility. Their office is very modern and well-equipped ad has surgery capability and short term care ability too. However, it does not seem that full time/overnight care is an option.

To be honest, I want Dulcie home tonight if that is what the vet says can happen. even though she was so listless last night, I do think it was comforting to her to be hoe and with me and in her familiar surroundings. HOWEVER, if she needs overnight intensive care, I am going to make sure she gets that at a hospital!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

n2mischief, yes, they did do X-rays yesterday and the vet said that they looked unremarkable. I think she was looking for any possible obstruction on there.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

nifty said:


> n2mischief, yes, they did do X-rays yesterday and the vet said that they looked unremarkable. I think she was looking for any possible obstruction on there.


I didn't see if you said whether she's running a fever and/or if she's been tested for common viral infection (parvo being a big one). Some viruses make the colon tissues 'slough' off which could cause HGE/bloody diarrhea. If it were viral, supportive treatment is pretty much all that can be done while her immune system fights off the virus.

In case you hadn't already seen this article, I thought it was informative:
"_What causes HGE?

Stress, sudden dietary changes and hyperactivity seem to be predisposing factors, but the actual cause remains unknown. A bacterium called Clostridium is also thought to play a role. In short, the condition is truly another medical mystery, and I can relate to an owner’s confusion and frustration when they ask, “Yeah, but what actually caused it?” I cannot point to an exact cause in more than 80 percent of HGE cases I treat.

How is this condition diagnosed?

There are no specific tests for HGE but a test called a packed cell volume (PCV) is helpful in narrowing down the diagnosis. Using a few drops of blood, the test measures the percentage of blood volume made up by the red blood cells. A normal packed cell volume for a healthy dog is between 37 and 55 percent, meaning that 37 to 55 percent of the blood volume should be red blood cells (the rest of the volume is fluid and white blood cells).

When the patient becomes very dehydrated, there is less fluid in the bloodstream and the percentage of blood fluid drops, and consequently the percentage of red blood cells increases. A dog with HGE will generally have a PCV greater than 60 percent.

The measurement of the PCV also includes a measurement of total protein (sometimes called total solids). In HGE, the total protein measurement from the blood sample is low or normal.

A very high PCV, low total protein and acute onset bloody, watery diarrhea can point to a diagnosis of HGE.

From a medical standpoint, one of the things that makes diarrhea difficult is that no matter what the underlying cause, the clinical picture looks exactly the same. Because of this, we may still recommend that additional tests, such as radiographs, a fecal exam (that includes a parvovirus test) and blood work, be performed to make sure there is not a more serious problem causing the clinical signs.

HGE really becomes a diagnosis of exclusion: When blood work, radiographs and fecal exams are normal, we highly suspect HGE as the cause.

What is the treatment for HGE?

The heart of therapy is very aggressive fluid replacement with intravenous fluids. The goal is to get the packed cell volume back to the normal range and keep (or get) the patient out of shock. Food is withheld for at least 12 to 24 hours and then gradually introduced after the vomiting has resolved. Symptomatic treatment for nausea and belly discomfort is typically included, as is antibiotic therapy. One to three days of hospitalization is commonly required for treatment.

With early and aggressive treatment, life-threatening complications are generally avoided and dogs return happily home. In the case of Sam, he unfortunately required four days of intensive care, including nutritional support through a feeding tube as pictured, but I am happy to report that he made a full recovery and went back home to Mom and Dad!_"

(from When Diarrhea Turns Dangerous | The Bark)

Maybe she will turn a corner for the better today. If not, I'd look into more aggressive diagnostic tests and treatment. I would also not take her home unless the vet thinks that things have significantly improved or you are able to continue the treatments overnight-- at this point, 24 hour veterinary supervision is probably a good idea.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks, yes, Sophie Anne, Dulcie's temperature was normal. The vet also said her pulses were strong and her heart and lungs sounded Ok (this was yesterday morning - I am not sure what she found today regarding these things - my mind was racing and I forgot to ask!

The one thing that seemed new to me was that Dulcie seemed to be breathing very rapidly this morning. Also, although the vet said "She is much brighter!" when I went to pick her up last night, to me she was in fact more listless and lethargic, so I am not sure what to think.

If I don't hear from her by about 1:00pm, then I will call and ask more questions and get an idea if maybe a trip to a bigger hospital might be a better idea.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

*Can't find past thread with potentially very useful info*

Nifty, I am wracking my brain and searching the website for a thread that might be helpful to you. There was someone whose spoo had terrible diarrhea, couldn't eat, was failing, they did lots of tests, nothing...then (can't remember, he changed vets?) they tested and the poor pooch had a readily treatable bacterial infection that was rapidly cured. 

I am trying various key words to find this thread. What I remember is that he lived in the South/southeast of the US somewhere...it would have been since I joined the forum so in the past 2 years max...maybe someone knows? I found it so very helpful that I was going to print it but didn't. I have this idea in my head it might help you and Dulcie.

Anyone remember? I may have some facts wrong, but you never know.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks for keeping Dulcie in your thoughts, marialydia! 

Dulcie is also on IV antibiotics in case there is an underlying bacterial infection. Although with no fever, the vet doesn't think that is it, but as a precaution, she is getting antibiotics.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I kind of remember the thread referred to above. I think it took a certain kind of antibiotic to cure the dog. I think they did a culture of some kind to find the problem. The dog presented a confusing array of symptoms and seemed to get better and worse again. I do not know how to find it either.


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## Newmum (Jan 2, 2014)

Is this the thread you were thinking of marialydia?

http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/65777-sudden-staggering-collapsing-long-post.html


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

Oh my gosh that is exactly it! Thank you! 

Somehow I had it in my head...and it was such a story, that I wanted to keep it for reference.

Potentially it can help others, maybe even Dulcie.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

MiniPoo said:


> I kind of remember the thread referred to above. I think it took a certain kind of antibiotic to cure the dog. I think they did a culture of some kind to find the problem. The dog presented a confusing array of symptoms and seemed to get better and worse again. I do not know how to find it either.


Yes, a simple and relatively inexpensive test at this point would be cultures from both Dulcie's urine and stool to see if she's got a bacterial infection and if it can be treated with a more targeted antibiotic than what she's on now. They can actually treat any abnormal bacteria they find in the culture with different antibiotics, to find one that is effective. Results from that should be available within hours. Not all bacterial infections cause a fever. 
 
Disorders Caused by Bacteria in the Digestive System of Dogs | Merk Vet Manual

Great thread, marialydia and great job finding it Newmum!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

I spoke to the vet a short while ago and she said they have still been unable to get a stool sample (her "diarrhea" over the past 24-36 hours has been mainly blood and almost no stool) and she has urinated so I hope they did test for bacterial infection (I hadn't read this yet when I spoke to her or I would have asked). 

She said they also gave her barium and took another X-ray to definitely rule out any kind of missed obstruction. Nothing evident. She said the barium will coat her gastrointestinal tract and make her feel better,too and she said it does seem like she feels better after it. 

The vet also said they fed Dulcie a fair sized meal and she ate it up. Hopefully, she will defecate soon so they have a sample to test for parasites etc.

I've been reading on vet websites and perhaps scaring myself unnecessarily. However, I can't get the thought of acute leukemia out of my mind. Dulcie's symptoms are too close to those for my comfort.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

The internet is our friend and our foe! Nifty please don't scare yourself but just keep asking for tests and treatment based on the results, until Dulcie is definitively better. 

It is far more likely that she has something simpler rather than more complicated.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Marialydia, that was well remembered. E. coli? Very possible. Nifty, I am praying for a diagnosis and that Dulcie improves very soon.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am sorry to see that there still is lack of clarity on what is happening with Dulcie. I do hope that you will be able to have her home this evening and am wishing you both the best.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks everyone. Since there was nothing I could do for Dulcie today and writing is out of the question, I went out for a walk to clear my head.

I think the main concern that I have is that the treatment yesterday did not bring about an improvement and yet the vet kind of thought it did. Also, she has asked me several times about vomiting, but does not seem to believe me when I say that Dulcie is not vomiting.

I guess my concern is that I am afraid the vet has a diagnosis in her mind and is treating for that and yet it might not be the correct diagnosis. It's just kind of a hunch. Maybe it is just fear making me think I have a hunch - I don't know. But the reality is that the vet thought Dulcie looked "much brighter" yesterday evening while to me she seemed just as lethargic and actually was even worse as the evening went on. Then, this morning, to find out that after 10 hours of IV treatment yesterday she was in exactly the same condition. It just makes me uneasy. I ask myself - do I listen to the hunch or do I just trust that this vet is doing everything possible?

Well, I've decided to see how I find Dulcie when I pick her up tonight and if things go as they did last night, then I will be calling the U of I veterinary school clinic.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Sorry to hear that nifty. It is horrible when you don't know what's wrong with her! And worse yet to feel like you can't trust your vet. Fingers crossed she'll have perked up when you pick her up but it's great to have the Uni option if necessary.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i would definitely call the university. you know your dog better than your vet does. vets and doctors in general are not gods. if a beloved family member seemed to be suffering seriously and didn't seem to be improving under one doctor's care, you would ask for a second opinion. no difference here.

hoping for good news soon.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I have taken my dogs to the U of Illinois vet school for several different things. My vet usually gives me a referral and even sets up the appointment for me. I think you might get in faster with the referral. If you do not feel entirely satisfied with your vet's dignosis, they should assist you in getting a specialist to look at your dog. If they won't, then you can call on your own.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Another thing to remember is that even a sick poodle might seem "brighter" than some perfectly healthy, lower-energy dogs who are less connected to people, especially to a vet that doesn't know Dulcie's normal disposition!

I'll add Ari's bloody diarrhea story here, briefly. Maybe it will be comforting or helpful.

It was 2 days after Ari came home, at 10 weeks old, and I hired a dog walker to take her out while I was at work. He fed Ari hot dogs as treats, which brought on severe diarrhea within hours that quickly changed into HGE. She was squirting uncontrollable red-blood-laced mucus all over the place. I brought her to the vet at the onset of the diarrhea, and the vet did not seem to think that her condition was serious because she seemed "bright" (vets like that word I guess) as she was bumbling around the exam room like any curious puppy would. He sent me home with instructions to feed her a bland diet and to make sure she got plenty of water.

We entered a second night of the diarrhea, and my poor 4 lb baby Ari just became more and more listless. By the morning (~16 h after the onset of soft stool, ~12 h into the bloody liquid poos) she was almost impossible to wake up at all let alone to drink or eat. I called the vet and they scheduled me for an emergency appointment, during which the vet insisted she didn't seem much worse than the day before and quite rudely talked down to me about my "anxiety" as a "new mother". He told me that she was probably just tired and that I should let her sleep (!!!!!!!! that would have been a DEEP sleep). I insisted that he treat her with fluids for rehydration, meds for nausea, and metronidazole or refer me to another vet that would. He gave her the meds and a subcutaneous fluid bubble with no shortage of hemming and hawing.

Ari was feeling better by the time I finished paying my $450 bill for two emergency appointments and medications delivered against veterinary advice (this was written on the billl!!!!). By the time we got in the car, she was licking at the plain watery rice that I gave her a teeny bit of. By that night, she was playing and eating small bites of rice with teeny bits of boiled chicken mixed in.

I fully believe that she would never have gotten to the point of bloody diarrhea had she been given meds on the first visit (but I didn't demand them because I was intimidated by the vet) and certainly would have died if she hadn't gotten the meds on the second visit. One of the techs helping me pay the bill agreed.

What I'm saying with this story is that you know Dulcie better than anyone, particularly a vet that hasn't seen her when she's feeling great. Dulcie cannot advocate for herself, so it's up to you to make sure that every reasonable avenue of treatment is explored.

Veterinarians and doctors are imperfect human beings and can't know every patient. They make the wrong call sometimes and can be blinded by ego even when they are trying their very best to do the right thing. If I was in your position, I would run, not walk to the U of I vet school ASAP. Your current vet may well be 100% right with what they're doing but at this point a set of fresh eyes on the case can't hurt. I wish I had gone with my gut in Ari's case and gone to a different vet after my first appointment with the bad one! It would have saved her some suffering.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*nifty*: Just catching up on your thread and sending you my concern and support. Hope whatever is ailing Dulcie is soon identified and remedied. JMHO, I think any veterarian seeing a spoo in such a state should routinely test for Addison's. Right now all I want is for your girl to feel better and be back home with you. Follow your gut and hang in there! :clover:


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I agree with patk--it's time for a visit to the university. Go with your gut and ask for a second opinion/referral. Jazz, Blue, and I are sending healing thoughts your way.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear things still don't seem better. I feel your worry and frustration.

How far is U of I? When Lily had her episode of bloody diarrhea in July we were about 4 1/2 to 5 hours from home. I was very uneasy about the idea of having her crash out on me while I was in the middle of no where which is why I opted for the local emergency vet rather than trying to get home to my vet. They were about 10 minutes away. the only other place I would have considered going was Cornell, but it would have taken over an hour to get there and also would have sent me further from home.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Hi Everyone! I picked up Dulcie about an hour ago and she truly does seem much better! She is tired, but also showing signs of her old spunk (ahem, counter surfing instead of eating the crappy Hills I was told to feed her).

The vet said she thinks Dulcie will be A-OK now and we are going back for a check in the morning. I intend to watch her closely tonight, though, obviously. 

She hadn't passed any stool in several days and the vet hoped I would succeed where they had failed (in encourgement, I guess lol) - and of course as soon as we left the clinic. I brought Dulcie to a grassy spot, told her to go ahead and she both urinated and defecated. The poop was white and like yogurt but at least it wasn't bloody! I guess the white is from the barium earlier today.

I was puzzled as to why the vet insisted that I continue to feed her the hIlls for a few days. She said she wants Dulcie to eat a "Bland diet" and I had already mentioned that I had made a supply of boiled chicken and rice for her - but the vet still wanted m to use the Hills. I have to say this really makes me wonder - I mean, during the initial exam, the question was Has she had a change in diet? And the implication is that a dietary change could be one of the stressors that supposedly might have caused the HGE -- so it really surprised me when they then gave Dulcie a brand new food that she has never had before!  ?? I am still wondering about that and I DID ask the vet about it - and she said Oh no one really knows what causes HGE. Which I do know already having read everything I could find about it over the last couple of days - yet it still puzzles me. Why the HILLs and not the top quality human grade chicken and rice I have already prepared and have waiting in my fridge and freezer for Dulcie? 

That's the kind of thing that makes me feel a little less confident about everything.

Anyway, my girl seems more like herself tonight and I am very thankful! Thanks to everyone for your support and caring!

Catherine, U of I is almost as close to me as the vet's office. I looked it all up tonight. If I have any doubts at all, I will be calling them.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Oh that is such a relief! I'm so glad for you and Dulcie. I hope you get some well earned sleep now!!

No advice on the food sorry, but it does sounds weird to me too!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

So happy to hear this good news!
And about the prescription diet - I have no idea why, since they are made of such garbage, but they really do seem to work well - probably because they do lots of trial and error testing formulating them.
Although it is too junky to feed long term, I think it is probably good advice to use it until she is totally better.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Did your vet give you ID canned food? I agree it does not look like great food but one of my dogs with digestive problems got better on that. I got to the point of half home cooked but still need to give her that canned food. I do not understand why it helps her but it does.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Glad she's feeling better! If the food they gave you was Hills I/D - thats a miracle worker as far as temporary bland diets goes. It almost never fails. I always go straight for that instead of chicken and rice actually when I've got a dog with a case of bad diarrhea.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Yes, that is the stuff. I will follow the vet's advice and I will freeze the chicken and rice. Perhaps when I no longer am advised to feed the Hill's I will transition Dulcie back to her raw diet via the chicken and rice.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Good to know you all have had good results with the Hill's! I'll stick with it until advised it's OK to resume her regular diet.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

nifty said:


> ...Anyway, my girl seems more like herself tonight and I am very thankful! Thanks to everyone for your support and caring!


Thank goodness!! So many of us will now rest easier tonight right along with you. Sweet dreams to you and sweet Dulcie!


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Sounds like you have a good plan to transition her off Hills when you are OK'd to do so. Have had a couple of very scary incidents with my girl so I can relate to how terrifying this has been for you.

I am so glad to hear that she is home and recovering. Dulcie is really a lovely girl.

Best wishes for a quick and full recovery. (((HUGS)))

Viking Queen


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am so glad she is better - what good news to wake up to!


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

I read this thread last night. OH MY! Poor Dulcie! I'm pretty sure I would have freaked out, especially waking up to a crime scene. Poor Nifty! Watching all that blood and mucus being expelled...and having to clean it up. There's been way too much stress around here!

Please let us know what kind of night you guys had, I'm hopeful it was a good one.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I hope you have the energy to check in and that Dulcie is really "brighter" this morning. Hugs from Houston!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Carley and I are doing the Happy Dance !


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Another Dulcie fan checking in to see how it's going. Thought of you and your boy the moment I opened my eyes this morning. Given we're in different time zones I'm hoping you're both still sleeping after a peaceful night. Looking forward to a good news update as the day unfolds.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

nifty that is great that you are so close to U of I! Cornell is about 5-6 hours away for us, but we have an excellent specialty vet practice very close to us (where I took Peeves to the opthalmologist and their orthopedic guy did knee surgery on a cat for me many years ago). I also have a friendly acquaintance relationship with a vet who works at a relatively large practice near me where they have overnight emergency services. 

I am really happy to see such positive reports on all the fur kids who have been sick in the last couple of weeks (Pushkin and Wrex along with Dulcie).


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Popping in to see how she's doing...was glad to see some positive news. I hope, hope, hope things are still improving.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thank you so much, everyone! You are all so kind and have been a great comfort to me during this frightening episode.

Dulcie had a good night and really does seem to be truly on the mend. She has had a couple of bowel movements which were naturally still very soft but no more blood. The third one even had a little firmness to it. I now get what the reason might be for the Hills - a lower quality food with filler will mean more poop - which for a dog who hasn't been defecating, is probably a good thing! 

She isn't 100% back, but she is a world better than she was Monday-Wednesday and I feel like my girl has come back from the brink. We saw the vet first thing this morning and she said her paleness is substantially better too. We have meds for home and more of the hills for a few days - when I will begin the transition back to her regular diet via the chicken and rice (vet approved as well).

Thank you all! Hopefully this episode is truly behind us now!


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## Nicofreako (Aug 19, 2013)

I have been quietly following Dulci's situation, and I just want to pipe in and say "Thank the heavens!" and I hope she returns and stays her wonderful self!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

nifty said:


> Thank you all! Hopefully this episode is truly behind us now!


:amen: to that!!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Looking over Dulcie's paperwork, I see that the vet made a note on there yesterday morning "May need hospitalization" - so it is good to know that she was prepared to transfer her if necessary when things looked so bad yesterday morning. That helps me feel more confident about the new vet practice.


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