# Lucy's obedience.



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I think I must be doing something wrong. Lucy is absolutely perfect at sitting when I have a treat. But if I don't have a treat then its like she doesn't understand the word "sit". What am I doing wrong? Do I ALWAYS have to have a treat? How do I know when she knows that sit means sit without a treat? 

My class instructor is my agility instructor and he doesn't believe in treats. With a tough Loonie like Cooper - making him do things is a must. With a dog like Lucy - I am sure she will work better with positive training and treats. 

Also, I know I am a bit uncoordinated, but when I had the leash in my hands, and a treat and the clicker -- I found I needed more than one pair of hands. I usually hold the leash in both hands - then I had the clicker in the right hand and I had nowhere for the treat. The clicker has one of those spiral wrist straps but when its round my wrist, I can't reach the clicker part!!

Someone help!


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## CelticKitti (Jul 1, 2010)

I promise it gets easier!! I felt the same way when I started using a clicker. I never thought I'd be coordinated enough to do it!

If I'm doing stuff at the house I don't use a leash... but if we are in class I loop the leash over my wrist and hold the clicker in the same hand. Honestly it depends on what dog and what I'm doing for which hand. But always leash handle and clicker in the same hand.

While doing really training with Kodi I use my right hand to hold the leash/clicker and my left hand to hold excess leash if needed and give the treat. Kodi is a mini and I don't like bending and twisting at the same time so I give the treat with my left hand. 

What size leash are you using while training?? I have switched Kodi to a 5 ft least because the 6 ft leash just gives to much leash and it gets in the way. Mia I usually use a 4 or 5 foot leash for training. I love a longer leash if you are going for a casual walk or trying to get them to potty but while training I find them too long. 

Here's a picture. This is not the type of clicker I usually use... but it was close by.

Thought of something elce. I use a treat pouch. It clips onto a belt loop. That way you don't need to have the treat in your hand, but they are close by. You can leave it there until you click. The click signifies the treat is coming. So you have time to reach in and pull out a treat. It may also help with Lucy learning to do things without food.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

"Lucy is absolutely perfect at sitting when I have a treat. But if I don't have a treat then its like she doesn't understand the word "sit". What am I doing wrong? Do I ALWAYS have to have a treat? How do I know when she knows that sit means sit without a treat? "

Let me guess, you use food as a 'lure'/bribe? You hold the food out, and show it to her, and 'bait' her into a sit (or you taught her to do it that way, yes?) Ok, so while I LOVE using food as a reward because of it's simplicity in rewarding a dog, you do need to be really careful about luring (ie using food on the end of the dogs nose to move them about or encourage a behaviour) and as *soon* as they are 'getting' the behaviour, you need to fade the lure out so that you don't run into the trouble you are now having.

My method of fading the lure, and I will sue 'sit' as an example:
Using food in my hand, I'd initially 'bait' the dogs nose upwards and backwards, to 'lure' them into plonking their butt down into a sit. They get it pretty quick usually, and it's a common way to teach a 'sit'. The dogs quickly learn a simple upwards motion (with food) indicates a 'sit'. So, what I do is as soon as they are sitting with the lure stuck to their nose (do a few repetitions with food), I PRETEND; I go into my pocket and pretend to grab a bit of food, pretend to hold the food and lure them, as if I have a bit of food. Generally they sit pretty fast, cos they've just done it several times and they won't have realised there's no food in your hand. QUICKLY delve into your pocket and reward them from your OTHER hand when their butt goes down. 
Do that. Lots. Pretend to have food, lure them as if you have food, and feed them FROM THE OTHER HAND when they do it right. 

You should then quickly be able to not have to fully pretend to have food in the hand and you should just be able to do the upwards action with your hand, and then grab them a bit of food as 'payment'.

It's the difference between bribery and reward, and you have to be careful not to fall into only being able to bribe your dog! Once they are doing a behaviour with food as a bribe, you need to fade it out so it becomes a reward after they've done it. If you have a savvy dog who KNOWS when there's no food in your hand, then use a little bit of food in your hand to lure them, and feed a bigger tastier bit from your other hand (and never give them the little lure bit) so they get a reward, despite the bribe. You can fade the lure down to a crumb and get rid of it quickly once they get the process.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yes. That is what I was doing - luring her with a treat she can see.

The other thing is that as I mentioned, the trainer doesn't like using treats and he prefers to tuck the dog's bum under for the sit. When I tried this method to get Lucy to go "down" she really fought me. I mean getting down with the dog and lifting up her front legs to get her to go down -- she fought that. I don't think she is the kind of dog to respond very well to that kind of training, but on the other hand, I don't want her ONLY to do things like the down if I have a treat. 

I got Pat Miller's book out of the library - the Power of Positive Dog Training. I have been reading it, but its pretty heavy going. There are only two more classes in this session and I think after that I will work through Pat Miller's book. That somehow seems like the kind of training for Lucy.

The other kind of training was perfect for Cooper. He is a tough bouncy dog and nothing stops his tail wagging -- absolutely nothing!!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Excellent description, FD!

Purley, you may find Jean Donaldson's new book "Train your dog like a pro" helpful. It looks as if it has lots of detail on moving through the stages of training at the right pace for the individual dog - Amazon.com: Train Your Dog Like a Pro (9780470616161): Jean Donaldson: Books

I think you are very wise to recognise that Lucy responds better to reward-based training. I have had similar experiences with keeping the lure going too long, until it became a bribe. I found the answer was patience - lots and lots of patience - waiting until the dog voluntarily gave me the behaviour I wanted, rather than giving up and waving a treat to speed things up. It helps to have sealed treat pots hidden around the house, so you can magically produce a treat without having one on you (or so I have been told - when I tried this Sophy spent a happy day tracking down the pots, mountaineering to find them, and exercising considerable ingenuity in getting them open ...)


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Purley said:


> Yes. That is what I was doing - luring her with a treat she can see.
> 
> The other thing is that as I mentioned, the trainer doesn't like using treats and he prefers to tuck the dog's bum under for the sit. When I tried this method to get Lucy to go "down" she really fought me.


Purley, you've just described two ways of getting a dog to do something like sit--luring and physical placement. It isn't unusual for a dog to resent being physically placed into something like a down, and it may be more an oppositional reflex than an attitude. 

The third method is shaping--waiting until the dog does an approximation of what you want, then clicking and treating. Gradually you raise your criteria. Once you like what you see, you can add a verbal cue. Depending on what you are trying to do, shaping can be tricky for a novice trainer (it is for me most of the time). But it encourages the dog to actively think about what is earning her the click/treat. From my experience, it also produces a very fast, motivated worker. I was able to shape a down when Dexter was a pup, and he has a nice fast happy sphinx down. The few times I tried to push him into a down were a disaster, as he is physically oppositional. 

FD has posted some nice videos of her shaping behaviors--she is a much better clicker trainer than I am. A nice place to start is something that your dog is offering naturally--the first two things that Dexter "learned" were "paw" and "back" because he offered them readily. Another easy thing to shape is to take a coffee can lid and shape them touching it with their nose or paw (start with whichever they do more naturally). 

One other thought--there is nothing magical about the clicker. Timing is more important, and some people find that their timing is better if they use a specific word in lieu of the click. The clicker is good because it is fast, precise, and audible. But if you are fumbling around, you lose the advantage of a clicker over a verbal conditioned reinforcer.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Where do I find FD's videos so I can get some tips.

Yes -- I now totally see the difference between bribing her to do something and rewarding her. Also, I realize now that the click is the reward. I don't have to be really really quick with the food. I tried it - told her to sit - gave her a click when she did it right away. Then I opened the treat bag and gave her one. I was trying to do the whole lot all at once.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Purley said:


> Where do I find FD's videos so I can get some tips.
> 
> Yes -- I now totally see the difference between bribing her to do something and rewarding her. Also, I realize now that the click is the reward. I don't have to be really really quick with the food.


You can see FD teaching Paris how to get a tissue from the box in the video below. FD is a very good clicker trainer and Paris is a "clicker savvy" dog--she has "learned how to learn" and try different behaviors to figure out what is earning her the click/treat. Set Lucy up for success at first by "shaping" something she is likely to offer readily.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

Just note that the click is NOT the reward, it is the PROMISE of a reward. Don't fall into the concept the click is the reward or you'll loose the power of the click. The click marks the exact point the dog did something right, and basically told them "YES!!!!! Now you get a reward!" all in one wee click. Don't use the click as a reward by itself, or it will loose it's power and will just become a noise that says "yes", without any promise of reward. I use a verbal "yes" when I'm without my clicker and often it's not always followed by much of a reward too (a pat or something! lol) but a click is ALWAYS followed by a good reward.

The click DOES give you time though, it gives you time to then delve into your pocket to get food and toss it to them, but it was the point they got the click that they are being rewarded for.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I signed up for a manners class - it says its basic clicker training. I hope I like it. Starts on Tuesday.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Purley said:


> My class instructor is my agility instructor and he doesn't believe in treats. With a tough Loonie like Cooper - making him do things is a must. With a dog like Lucy - I am sure she will work better with positive training and treats.


You should totally trust your instincts. Get a different trainer. No offense to your current one, but "doesn't believe in treats" would be a big BIG red flag for me.

I can't tell you how much crap I took 20 years ago, training my softie softie Golden, from obedience instructors who didn't believe in training with food. "The dog MUST do it because you tell him to" .... why on earth would he???? Without something that tells him it's more fun to work WITH you?

I love training with food, clicker training is an extension of that, and the best thing is, dogs UNDERSTAND it. Command = reward is the only way to get a happy trusting worker, and that's what you want, not a dog that grudgingly goes through the motions because if he doesn't, he'll get yanked around or popped with a chain collar.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

One tip ... I put a clicker on a carabiner and clip it to my belt loop. I can easily get to it, then drop it to treat the dog.

I found the wrist strap too fiddly to use easily.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Its not that he doesn't believe in rewards ---- he believes in verbal rewards -- such as good dog - or things like that. He actually took a clicker class that Sue Ailsby gave to the club and he says he intends to clicker train his Poodle puppy.

BTW - whoever said it - what on earth is a carabiner? Oh - never mind, I looked it up -- I call it a clip thing!!! That is what I invented to lock my son's gate. I tied it on some cord attached to a nail on the fence and we put it through the hole in the latch on the inside and then the gate can't be opened from the outside. The dog is never left out when nobody is home so it doesn't matter you can't lock the gate from the outside.

I was rather proud of myself for thinking of it -- now I know the correct name for the "clip thing">


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Purley said:


> Its not that he doesn't believe in rewards ---- he believes in verbal rewards -- such as good dog - or things like that.


One of the best thing I ever read about reward-based training - WE don't get to choose what is a reward, the DOG gets to choose. 

For most of them, food is pretty reliable. For the rare few, a 'good dog' is sufficient reward. For most, however, they need more concrete, clear rewards. Toys/games can be rewards (and I actually use these a lot, esp as a reward for a good stay), but food is good hard currency for training, one the dog understands and can totally get behind. 

Sorry for the confusion about the carabiner ... I used to call it a clippy thing too, but was scornfully corrected by a climber.


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