# Advice for puppy and kids? Tips on fostering good relationship?



## fam6 (Apr 25, 2013)

Hi! We're getting a spoo puppy in a few weeks. I've been reading a few past threads on spoo's and biting/nipping small children and it's honestly scaring me a bit. We have a baby, 4yo and 7yo. I know that they should never be left alone with the puppy and we will do our absolute best to make sure that doesnt happen. If that means putting puppy in the crate at certain times or gating him or the kids off so they're not together, or keeping the puppy tethered to me, then i will do it. The baby will have no physical contact with the puppy as he is in a pulling hair kind of phase and i dont want him to hurt the pup. He's much too young to be taught how to be gentle so no contact is better than hurting him. How could i help foster a good relationship between the other two(4yo and 7yo) and the puppy? How could i prevent our spoo from using them as a chew toy? What are things i need to teach my children in order for them not to encourage such behaviour? I want my kids to feel and be safe around the dog but vice versa as well. What can we do to make sure our spoo knows his place in the hierarchy of our household? We are willing and ready to put the effort to make this puppy into the best family dog. We've chosen a great breeder but it's up to us to make him a great dog. Any help and advice is greatly appreciated! Thank you!!


----------



## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

Dr Sophia Yin has some great downloadable free posters with fun illustrations that could help you explain things to children: 

Download Posters: How Kids Should and Should Not Interact with Dogs

And here are the rest


----------



## kcp1227 (Jan 25, 2013)

My kids are 3 and 5 and our puppy is nearly 5 months old. This has been a struggle, but it is manageable. The biggest problem I have is that when the kids run, the puppy chases and then catches them. Dash is very persistent and the yelping didn't help and the standing still like a tree didn't help. Tethering would probably have worked the best, but I wanted him to play with the kids and not think he wasn't allowed. A sharp no is what works the best when he starts mouthing them. My 5 year old is best at asking for help when he starts up, but my 3 year old prefers to scream bloody murder which only causes puppy to get even more excited. It's been a struggle, but he is getting better. He and my 3 year old are just like brothers who pick and pick until someone gets hurt lol. Puppies and kids are difficult to raise together, but it's been fun and will be rewarding. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## fam6 (Apr 25, 2013)

My kids get rambunctious too and my husband gets in on the action many times as well. My plan was to let puppy stay in his kennel with a chew toy during those times. His kennel is in the living room so he'll be with us just not playing directly with them. I really want to teach my kids to respect the puppy and to play with him gently and calmly, as they would with their baby brother. I read earlier a few posts on spoos growling at kids. That is one thing i want to prevent. As i teach and he learns commands, they'll take part and give him commands as well and reward with treats. They'll take turns feeding him and even hand feeding him and touching his food, etc. Ian Dunbar suggests he eat near the family and not alone. My kids will help me in gently handling his ears, mouth, paws, etc. I expect him to mouth and nip because he's a puppy and that's normal. I've begun telling my 2 what to do if he bites them(yelp and turn back/stand like tree). We'll probably start role playing it with one of their stuffed animals too. In what other ways can i help both sides respect each other?


----------



## fam6 (Apr 25, 2013)

This is all a "plan." Not sure if i will effectively follow through but i need a list of do's and dont's.


----------



## kcp1227 (Jan 25, 2013)

My pup has never growled at my kids, and my kids are generally very gentle (my 3 year old can get rough but i intervene immediately). My kids are very good about having Dash sit for a treat and they also like to help with feeding him and have him sit for that as well. So it's not all chaos all the time lol. Mostly Dash just follows me around everywhere haha


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## fam6 (Apr 25, 2013)

kcp, i didnt meant to point you out. I think i need to take a break in searching for certain subjects because im giving myself some anxiety. lol I just need a plan to follow. I bought the book How to Teach an Old Dog New Tricks by Ian Dunbar. Hubby and I will start reading tomorrow. We will definitely take the puppy to obedience school as well, for us and for him.  Im open to any other advice or tips when dealing with kids and puppies. Thanks!!


----------



## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

It sounds like you have a good plan! I only have 4 legged children but we encourage folks at the training school to get their kids involved. Puppies are mouthy creatures with sharp teeth. You are on the right track teaching them now how to react! I was raised with German Shepherds and always supervised with them when I was little. My mother had a dog when I was born that wanted nothing to do with me at all! Keep in mind that she was around 4 when I came along & had been my mother's baby lol. Most of the dogs after that were accepting of children in their previous home or raised with me so they were fine. I was taught not to mess with them when they went to their crates because that was their own private space. I was also taught to be gentle, not to ever tease, to sit down while holding them, no tail or ear pulling, etc. Starting with a puppy & teaching all parties respect is great! Again, I really do think you are on the right track!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you are so sensible to be planning ahead, and not just assuming everything will be perfect. I would not get too hung up about growling - growling is a Good Thing! It is a dog's way of communicating that it is unhappy about a situation, when other, more subtle communications, have been ignored or not understood. I think the real problems start when the growl is also ignored or punished, and the dog is pushed to the next stage of snapping. 

I have only ever had visiting children and small pups, but I found very close supervision and clear rules helped a lot. My rules are for children are:
No picking up - too much danger of wriggly puppy being dropped or child scratched. If you want to cuddle the puppy, sit down and let her come to you.
Never disturb a dog that is eating, chewing, sleeping or resting
Running and squealing means chasing and possible nipping - you have been warned!
Play with long tuggy toys and you won't get chewed

I also try to explain the basics of dog body language, so that they can recognise when a dog is a bit nervous or getting over excited. There is a short video online called I Speak Doggie! which may help, and visiting lots of friends with dogs may be a good idea. But if you have already raised two toddlers I think you probably already have a pretty good idea what to expect (modified mayhem!), and know all the best methods for controlling it (distraction, reward, rest, safe spaces, patience, perseverance, etc,etc). Remember your pup will be a baby when he comes, and will need lots of sleep, lots of love, and not too much excitement!


----------



## fam6 (Apr 25, 2013)

Thank you everyone! We have the kennel all set up and they've been putting their stuffed animals in it. I think i'll have to lock and zip tie it closed so they get accustomed to it being the puppy's space and not part of their play area. I also didnt even think about them holding the pup or if that was safe or not. They follow by example so i will do my best not to hold the pup either. This will extinguish any kind of whining from them about it as well. 

Is playing tug of war acceptable? I've watched Cesar Milan(I know he's controversial here!) and he discouraged it. 

Also, what are a few ways that has worked for you in terms of mouthing and eventually teaching him not to mouth at all? I had toy poodles when i was a teenager and at that time i did not read anything about dogs or how to care for them. But even so, they mouthed me gently and never ever bit down. They only mouthed when i was playing with them and not any other time. My goal for this puppy is to teach him to not ever mouth any of us. I know it has to be phased out though. Ian Dunbar suggests the yelping and turning of back. He says once he is mouthing gently all the time, you yelp even then, therefore he learns that his teeth on you, no matter how gentle he thought he was being, hurts you and is not okay. I just summed it up but let me know if there's anything else i can do to reach this goal. Funny because i have a low threshold for pain so we'll see how i react to his nipping. lol Thank you all again!!!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Please also see this thread in which I talk about many of Dr. Ian Dunbar's training tips.

http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/100970-ian-dunbar-seminar-workshop.html

You can also go directly to his site for useful information.

Dog Star Daily

It is very smart to be preparing in advance and not just leaving things to chance. Preparation and thoughtfulness are great assets.


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

:hello:Want to mention a member here, *BeckyM*, who is doing a masterful job of raising a spoo pup along with her young children and running an in-home pre-school daycare.:dog::baby::baby::baby::baby: Maybe take a look at her threads or PM her for some ideas. Enjoy your busy, growing family! I really applaud all the forethought you're putting into making things go smoothly for everyone.:thumb:
http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/101618-pollys-playdate-toddlers.html#post1165074


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I believe the latest advice on playing tug is that it is fine, as long as you teach the pup to stop and start on cue. And it is also fine to let the dog win at least half the time - they enjoy the game more and are more engaged that way (quelle surprise...!). It's a good way for small children to play as it keeps their hands away from puppy needle teeth while the pup is learning self control.


----------



## fam6 (Apr 25, 2013)

Lily, thank you so much! Im reading and taking notes from your thread. Very helpful!!!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

fam6 said:


> Lily, thank you so much! Im reading and taking notes from your thread. Very helpful!!!


That's very sweet of you to let me know that thread has been helpful to you. I have a few more things I will patch together into another post this weekend for it.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

re playing tug: ian dunbar carefully controls this, even with his adult dogs, when he is a participant. he does not let the dog win; he will play and then say "thank you," to stop the game while he still holds the tug toy and then put the toy away.

lots of implications to this and something to really think about.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I read a study recently that found that, while controlling tug games was important, winning was not - and now, of course, I can't find it! I shall post a link when I do. It doesn't contradict Dr Dunbar, as the human starts and stops the game, but found that dogs enjoy the game more when they get to "win" the toy in the course of play, bringing it back to start another round.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

here's what we seem to have so far:

1. cesar millan discourages playing tug (in at least one book he says with powerful breeds when you aren't in complete control)

2. ian dunbar carefully controls playing tug, including initiating and stopping the game and putting the tug toy away at the end of the game

3. patricia mcconnell advises owners to "be thoughtful" about playing tug, including ending the game by putting the toy away at the end of the game

4. there is a study that has been done saying letting the dog win is okay, as long as the human starts and stops the game

so in all of this i see the same theme: human control over the parameters of the game. in essence, i think that means a well-trained dog that is reliable re self-control when tug is played. imo - and only imo - tug is not a game i would suggest for young children and a puppy. but i agree that each person has to draw his/her own conclusions.


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

fjm said:


> I read a study recently that found that, while controlling tug games was important, winning was not - and now, of course, I can't find it! I shall post a link when I do. It doesn't contradict Dr Dunbar, as the human starts and stops the game, but found that dogs enjoy the game more when they get to "win" the toy in the course of play, bringing it back to start another round.


Interesting! This article from _Whole Dog Journal_ is years old, but it convinced me when I first read it tug-of-war was okay to play. Good thing too, Chagall loves it! And it was useful to teach him many things, like "give," "drop it," "wait" and more. He can actually "win" all on his own, he's one strong mini boy!

Tug O' War is a Fun Game to Play With Your Dog - Whole Dog Journal Article
Contrary to conventional wisdom in some dog training circles, tug is a great game to play with most dogs - as long as you and your canine pal play by the rules. Lots of my clients have dogs with aggressive, reactive, and other stress-related behaviors. One of the best ways to help reduce stress is to increase exercise. Tug is great exercise.

I’m constantly encouraging my clients to play tug with their dogs. Inevitably when I suggest it I get a puzzled look and a tentative protest that “some trainer” told them playing tug would make their dog dominant and aggressive. I sure wish I could meet that pervasive “some trainer” some day and convince him/her otherwise. It just isn’t so.

Tug has a lot going for it besides just being good exercise. Most dogs love to tug. Of course, the caveat is that you play tug properly - with rules, which I’ll discuss in a minute. Here are some of the many other reasons this game ranks high on my list of approved activities:...


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Lily is a power tugger. She would easily pull a child off their feet. She can pull me off balance if I get distracted. I use tug as a focus and motivation technique. She has good "out (release/drop it)" and "leave it" commands, but unless she is redirected to a sit or down stay she will sometimes make a sneak attack to try to get the toy. I'm not so sure I would want her to play tug with kids. I don't think kids could be made to understand the timing of the commands. I would use caution with tug as a game for children and dogs.

Fetch could be a lot better. Kids can throw balls easily. It directs the dogs energy physically away from the child and the dog can be taught to surrender the ball gently either to a person's hand or to put the ball on the ground when they bring it back. Either way, tug or fetch, you need solid out/release/drop it and leave it orders.


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> I don't think kids could be made to understand the timing of the commands. I would use caution with tug as a game for children and dogs.


This is the opinion shared in the_ Whole Dog Journal_ article.

_8. *Children should not play tug with your dog unless and until you are confident they can play by the rules.* *If you do allow children to play tug with your dog, always directly supervise the game.

*_ Depending on the child and the dog, another option for some_ might _be "flirt pole."' I personally felt even my youngest grandchild was safe to use it (while supervised) with my mini when he was a pup. They had a blast playing with it! I think it helped build the bond between them. And I found it helped teach them _both_ self-control.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Chagall's Mom, I agree even when you are sure of the dog children still need to be supervised when playing with dogs, especially high energy games. We want the dogs to be rock solid in their behavior around kids and it is very sad to meet people who are afraid of dogs because they got knocked over (or worse) when they were children. The lessons for both dog and child are invaluable if everyone has a good experience. Can you explain a "flirt pole" a bit more? I am guessing it would be similar to many cat toys that have a stick with a string of some sort and a bouncy toy at the end of the string.


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

It's_ just_ like what you're thinking of with the cat toy version, Catherine!:nod:

I had these links explaining/showing its use bookmarked. Gotta go make breakfast for the troops now. (Wish I could teach Chagall to do that!) 
The Flirt Pole: Dog Toy or Life Changer? | notes from a dog walker
7 Great Benefits of Flirt Pole Play for You and Your Dog | eileenanddogs


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks for the links on the flirt pole CM. I hope you are having bacon for breakfast! ;-)))

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/105370-all-hail-power-bacon.html


----------



## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

This website and these specific posts were recommended on another site:
Mamas, Don’t Let Your Babies Get “Magnetized” to Dogs | Dogs and Babies
How to Not Magnetize Your Baby (Part 2) | Dogs and Babies
Helping Toddlers Not Be Magnetized to Dogs (Part 3) | Dogs and Babies
Forsake Magnetization, Gain Harmony (Part 4) | Dogs and Babies
And the Before and After books:
Free downloads | Dog Star Daily


----------



## fam6 (Apr 25, 2013)

Great info on the game tug of war. I think the flirt pole and playing fetch will be a safer bet for now. 


Are there any other book recommendations that are along the lines of Dunbar's methods? Possibly books on how to teach commands, etc? Dunbar's book touches on that and explains a few commands, the foundational ones, but that's about it. Thank you again!


----------



## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I love Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash for a lot of things, including a wonderfully clear housetraining writeup, among others. It's out in a second edition now.


----------



## Bizzeemamanj (Apr 14, 2014)

Hi! I'm currently raising a mini puppy named Cooper (12 weeks on Tuesday) in a house with two children (10 and 14). It's been challenging at times, but we are all getting the hang of it!

A couple of things that seem to work well for us:

We all use the same words, hand gestures and routines with Cooper so it is clear what we expect. We reward correct behaviors with treats and pats and praise and ignore unwanted behavior.

We've learned to recognize when a situation is escalating and will stop and redirect Cooper by saying "Cooper, Sit" firmly. This usually short circuits any nipping/biting/jumping. Any other response, Cooper interprets as continuing play and doesn't work. Sit works for us because he responds to it each and every time! We are working on "Give" as well, but it's still challenging for Cooper to give up his toy in the middle of play. He'll get there soon!

When things get out of control, an adult picks up Cooper and places him in the "puppy only" play pen. This gives everyone some time to settle back down. We find when Cooper gets too overstimulated, he has a harder time with his manners. We are learning where that line is, and trying very hard not to cross it.

If you are a researcher like I am, I have two great book recommendations for you! I found both on Amazon through my Kindle. They were recommended by my trainer.

Raising Puppies & Kids Together: A Guide for Parents by Pia Silvani and Lynn Eckhardt

Perfect Puppy in 7 Days by Sophia Yin - I love her and her approach. She equates teaching your puppy to sit as the puppy version of saying please. We make Cooper say please for everything: to go outside, to eat, to play, for pats...you name it, he sits for it. He responds immediately to the sit command or hand gesture.

The last thing I will say - don't be afraid to make mistakes. I was so anxious about being "errorless" with all my efforts with Cooper that I didn't enjoy him as much for the first few days. I was scared I was going to do something wrong and ruin the puppy, or my kids! Turns out you can learn from your mistakes and so can your puppy. Poodles are super smart and learn so fast. A mistake or two (or seventy) is inevitable. Just learn from it and get right back to the routine. 

Enjoy your new puppy! They really are a delight.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Bizzeemamanj, you offered great help there. We didn't have to raise pups with children in the house, but even with two people I think having all members of the household and frequent visitors and caregivers using the same words is essential.

For fam6 if you go to my thread on Ian Dunbar there is a description there of lure reward training which is his specific way to teach basic obedience commands like sit, down and stand. Also there are some videos at his website that may help you. Links for both are below.

http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/100970-ian-dunbar-seminar-workshop.html

Dog Star Daily


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*fam6*: Another suggestion for your training research and planning....
Emily Larlham offers a lot of practical, progressive training tutorials. She has a website, blog and terrific videos.









https://dogmantics.com/

New Puppy Owner Videos- dog training - YouTube


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*fam6*: Just want to mention there's a great suggested reading list here.
http://www.poodleforum.com/23-gener...d-based-training-reading-list.html#post192149


----------



## fam6 (Apr 25, 2013)

"The last thing I will say - don't be afraid to make mistakes. I was so anxious about being "errorless" with all my efforts with Cooper that I didn't enjoy him as much for the first few days. I was scared I was going to do something wrong and ruin the puppy, or my kids! Turns out you can learn from your mistakes and so can your puppy. Poodles are super smart and learn so fast. A mistake or two (or seventy) is inevitable. Just learn from it and get right back to the routine."

Thanks BizeeMama!! I really needed to hear that. I want everything to go smoothly and make as little mistakes as possible but i know it's inevitable! 

Thanks everyone for all the book recommendations and all the advice! I really, really, really appreciate it!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Like nobody ever makes a mistake with their children? Don't worry about a few booboos. Mostly they go under the bridge no problem. One of the best pieces of advise I got from my department chairman when I started teaching was that I would make terrible mistakes that first semester, but that if I didn't call attention to them my students probably wouldn't know the difference. He was right about both parts. Those early mistakes taught me a lot! You will do fine.


----------

