# Vitamin requirement in contract



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Red flag to me.


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Now I know why they say to see the contract before meeting the dog. We love this dog! This isn't a puppy mill and everything else seems above board, although I know some breeders give health guarantees longer than a year.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

What a crock! What you really need to look at, is if all the genetic/OFA testing was done on the dam and sire and they can show you the results in black & white!
Do read our sticky here on buying a puppy! Can you name the breeder? Perhaps someone here has bought a puppy from them. Besides, 'vitamins' aren't going to insure you have a puppy without inherited problems!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Red flag to me as well. Who is the breeder?


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

The breeder is Lake Sai in Illinois. We met them and they were very nice and genuine. And, more to the point, they do have testing information about the parents on their site. My one concern was that the mother is a carrier for Von Willebrand Type 1, but the father is not, and I was told that it is recessive.

Mom:
Birthday: June 22 2012

High: 20 inches, 32 lb

OFA:Thyroid: PO-TH2730/22F-VPI - Normal

OFA: Hip - Good

CERF# POS-383553 - Normal

Neonatal Encephalopathy - No mutations detected

Degenerative Myelopathy - No mutations detected

von Wilebrand Disease Type-1 - Carrier

Dad:
21.5 inches) 

OFA Hip - Prelims : Fair

Thyroid - T3 T4 tested : Normal

Neonatal Encephalopathy - No mutations detected

Degenerative Myelopathy - No mutations detected

von Wilebrand Disease Type-1 - No mutations detected


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

WinnieJane said:


> My one concern was that the mother is a carrier for Von Willebrand Type 1, but the father is not, and I was told that it is recessive.


 That is correct. In many cases one parent is a carrier. Maizie's father is, but since her mother is not a carrier, there's no chance of the puppies inheriting the condition.


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Thank you! Now that I am paying more attention, it looks like the sire has not had vision testing. (That's the CERF, right?) Is that a problem if the dam is clear?

First time I've typed "sire" and "dam" instead of "father" and "mother" -- I'm learning the lingo!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Both parents should have vision testing--yes, that is CERF. Clear means the eyes are clear of disease at time of testing.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I believe the sire is less than 2 years, which is why he does not have a Cerf and his OFA is a prelim only. It is safer to have both the dam and sire at least 2 years.

I do not put much faith in health contracts, other than if my vet finds something seriously wrong on the first visit, the breeder will refund and return. 

You have to decide if the cost of the puppy and the vitamins are too expensive. Or you can decide not to do the vitamins and don't worry about a one year health contract that you probably would never use.

Ask the breeder for a price reduction and pay for the health plan yourself.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

The contract would have me running in the opposite direction of this breeder. Not only because of the vitamin thing but because he/she should be a little more confident that her dogs have will not have issues. For the amount I'm willing to pay a 2 year minimum health guarantee no mater what, preferably a 3 year or life. You can't even have joints tested until two years old, and a vitamin isn't going to protect them or cure them from a genetic disease. Also no birthday for Sire or final on hips leads me to believe that dog isn't two years old yet. Plus the prelims were fair which isn't the end of the world, but still if I'm going to dish out a couple thousand for a dog Id want those hips to be perfectly sound. Especially if the breeder is only going to guarantee them for one year.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I would not buy from this person. There is something not right about this " farm " and their dogs don't have good conformation. I have seen roach backs on adults, distended bellies on puppies, stocky dogs and so forth.

Definitely not a place to buy a good, well-bred poodle. You can do so much better than that.

The contract is also a red flag, if you need more.


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Thank you for these frank responses. Boy, I wish my kids had not already met this dog ... my husband is inclined to proceed because we spent an hour with her and she had such a nice temperament. She is almost 9 months old, so perhaps that is more predictable than a puppy. 

How standard is this portion of the health guarantee? It actually guarantees nothing, I gather, as it is at the Seller's discretion.

_"Reasonable precautions have been taken to prevent this puppy from acquiring hereditary defects of Thyroid, Degenerative Myelopathy, Neonatal Encephalopathy, Hips. Sire and Dame health certificates are provided to Buyers. However, due to unknown hereditary and environmental causes of such defects, no guarantee will be given against them. Sire and Dame health certificates are provided to Buyers. However, due to unknown hereditary and environmental causes of such defects, no guarantee will be given against the Hip Dysplasia. However, should said puppy be diagnosed by a board certified specialist as being affected by one of the above defects, the Seller will at their discretion take the puppy back within one year of age. I will be available for the life of the dog as a resource to answer questions to the buyer." _

As you might have gathered, we are trying to talk ourselves into this being okay because we like the dog.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I would absolutely not proceed with the purchase. 99.9% of spoos have wonderful personalities, so you are pretty much guaranteed to fall in love with another dog. It's much more important to choose a good breeder, but I've already told you that


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I will repeat. Health guarantees are in most cases worthless. The wording in this breeder's contract basically says there is no real health guarantee.

The best you can do is make sure the parent dogs have been thoroughly tested for genetic problems and you are happy with their test results. The prelim OFA of fair for the sire is not a good sign. The breeder requiring you to buy specific vitamins (rather than just suggesting) is not a good sign.

Why is this puppy still with the breeder at 9 months?

I would have strong reservations about this breeder.

Remember, people can be very nice. That doesn't make them a good breeder.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

yikes! 
with that contract I regretting recommending them to you! 
I only got as far as health tests from the sire and dam of the litter I was interested in(which were good, btw, but since the pups weren't the color I wanted I didn't go farther) and there weren't any red flag up until that point.

I don't know if the nu-vet clause alone is worth running from, but the sire under two (unless he has a CH or GCH and all his preliminaries were very positive) seems a little iffy to me :/


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would leave this puppy for someone else. I think the health guarantee is as MiniPoo said a guarantee of nothing. I am very concerned if the sire really is under two years old, which seems likely if hips are prelim and with no birth date given.

I know you and DH are feeling your kids sense that this is your pup, but you want your children to have fabulous memories of their childhood dog, not heartaches. There are members here who have returned puppies after they brought them home. One of them has young children. It was hard for them to do, but the right thing. Not bringing a particular pup home is going to be easier than taking it back or finding there are going to be problems for which the contract provides no remedy.


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## first poodle (Jan 12, 2010)

My daughter's Great Dane breeder had a vitamin clause in her purchase agreement. The breeder also had a breeding agreement for the dog and she explained that her history with the breed (which is extensive) convinced her that the vitamins are important to the proper growth and overall health of her pups. I was a little skeptical but as my daughter said she has had great success both showing and breeding Great Danes so what's to question and besides why not give her recommended vitamins if she believes it improves the dog's health. As to kick backs, I'm not sure that's a big deal as you said the amount is small.


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Well, I have two heartbroken children, but we are not proceeding with this dog. I feel terrible that I had to learn my lesson at their expense.

Thank you all for the straight talk; it helped me make the hard call. So glad I found this forum and I expect to spend a lot more time here before visiting another dog.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Aww, I know this was a hard decision to make. Do something extra fun with your kids this weekend and explain to them honestly why you made this decision when you think the time is right to do so. A great pup will come your way before you know it. Have you seen this thread? http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/202170-new-pictures-babies.html


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

It was a hard choice, but the right one. I am sure you will find your perfect pup soon.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm so late to this thread. But I have to say...as I was reading about a requirement to give synthetic vitamins, (which I think aren't as good as a good natural diet as a source for vitamins) fair hips, the sire under two years old, (No dog should be bred under 2 years old) and though I didn't look at the pictures, I'm confident Dechi knows what she saw...I am glad you made the right decision and will take a little more time to learn what to look for. It has the very real potential of saving you a lot of heart ache and expense later on. I think requirements for this and that when the dog is owned by you are asking too much. If a breeder isn't confident that a potential buyer will take great care of her pup, then she oughtn't sell one to the person. But to dictate all these details as to how to care for the dog...no go for me. 

I too, think health guarantees are pretty useless, as they usually say they'll exchange the puppy. Well, you can see how you got attached to a puppy you don't even have yet. Can you imagine having a puppy for months and months and then trading it in? And if one puppy of a breeders isn't great, how is another one going to be assured to be better? Everything everyone said is so true. And it is hard on the kids but they'll get right over it when you find your puppy. And you'll find a better puppy for sure. Hang in there.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Winnie...and that is not to say that going with a great breeder is going to guarantee perfect, un-flawed dogs. Anyone who tells you their dog is perfect in every way is delusional. (although I've probably said that myself a few times. lol...because to us, our dogs _are_ perfect.) But in reality, every living thing has a flaw somewhere. They're living beings, not well oiled machines. My own Matisse is a champion. He was very close to getting his grand champion, only a few points away when he came up lame. He and Maurice were bred by a very reputable breeder who has lovely dogs and who takes very good care of them. (except what he was feeding these puppies when I got them. I don't think he knew any better). I switched them cold turkey. 

You can see in my siggy how pretty Matisse is. His parents didn't have luxating patellas. I don't think their parents did either. This is a condition that is called polygenic. It can come from many sources or way, way back and skip many generations. It is not always genetic either. Matisse injured himself...over stretched a ligament. And that seemed to exasperate this issue. But it is extremely common in toy breeds. Maurice even has slightly loose knees but he doesn't have the slightest issue with them. Matisse's knee was fixed and he's just fine now. It wasn't terribly expensive either where I live. But he had to stop showing and I neutered him. 

There are good breeders, breeders who strive to lessen or eliminate genetic health problems while improving temperament, structure, good health and longevity... and there are breeders who should be strung up. Most of us have even seen some show breeders, who breed nice looking dogs, even show dogs, but put their dogs through hell to get nice looking dogs. To think of what those dogs have to endure...the suffering some breeders put their dogs through is disgusting. Then there are back yard breeders who, in many cases have good intentions but don't know what the heck they're doing. Then there are full fledged puppy mills where they don't have good dogs and mistreat animals monumentally. There is something very wrong with these people. They have zero empathy toward another living thing and are self centered in the most perverse way possible. 

I know a lot of people have dogs shipped to them from breeders with good reputations. But for me, there's no better way to get a truer sense of what you're looking at than to go visit the place where the puppies live. Get lots of references, talk to your local Poodle Club people, go to shows, talk to people. If the same breeder's name keeps popping up, I bet that's a good one. (if it pops up in a positive way) Watch good dogs in action. See how they move, what they look like, how they act. Talk to people but not when they're about to go into the ring. These are some ways to find a good breeder. Look online as to what health tests can be done. Some things don't have a test. Ask about the longevity and what the dogs died from. Make sure you trust the breeder based on what many people have to say. 

My breeder was raved about by many...a highly respected breeder. There were show exhibitors, other breeders in the same area (one other one I was checking out) who said they'd buy a puppy from him in a heart beat, purchasers of his dogs that I communicated with. One lady had bought 4 dogs from him over the past 20 years. There were also the Poodle Club people...a few that I talked to who attested to his nice dogs. I went and saw. He lives 20 minutes from me. I was happy with what I saw. And I had a very good feeling about this man. He adored his dogs and was very proud of them and their temperaments. And indeed, they have stupendous temperaments. 

He was not in it for the money. He was a dog show judge and handler for many years. He made lots of money handling dogs at places like Westminster and I think (not sure) Crufts. When I couldn't make up my mind which puppy to get, he told me to take them both home and bring one back later. lol. Of course, we all know how that worked out. I _had _to keep them both you see, with pressure from my daughter and her father._ (I can blame them, right?) Awwwwww, keep them both, _they said. :ahhhhh: So I didn't bring one back. I brought a check instead. 

He sold me Matisse, then, as a pet, as I wasn't interested yet in showing...and Maurice on _special_...buy one, get the second one half off. LOL. Matisse turned out to be a dynamo show dog who could have cost more than double what I paid for him. So I braced myself and raised two puppies at the same time, something I never recommend. But they turned out beautifully...both well behaved, lovely little dogs who are, contrary to what everyone says, are very bonded to me and other humans as well as each other. When I mentioned litter mate syndrome to my breeder, he looked at me like I had two heads and said, "not with_ these_ Poodles." LOL. They're just very people oriented...love meeting strangers when out and about, not aloof at all. (except their watch dog tendency when someone knocks on the door of course) And they're not from the same litter...two entirely different sets of parents. 

I had no contract with him at all. It was all based on a hand shake and trust of character on both our parts. I bought them as pets but he suggested I take his handling class and try my hand at showing. He mentored me, helped me show Matisse, showed me how to take him around the ring so I could show him too. He was going to help me find a suitable bitch should I decide to breed him. And otherwise, there were no demands at all...no specific requirements other than a limited registration on Maurice since I wasn't showing him but no demands to neuter him early or at all if I didn't want to. He liked me, understood that I wasn't new to dogs, that I'd be responsible and saw that I'd be a nice puppy owner. I asked him why he didn't ask me many questions and his reply was that he's been doing this for almost 50 years and he knows within the first minute or two of talking to someone if they're going to be a person he wants to sell a puppy to. I had plenty of questions for him though. lol. I do not recommend going into it without a contract generally. I am usually very contract minded....having been in real estate for a few years some time ago. But this was the exception to my rule. 

Anyhow, I thought I'd share what turned out to be a very long story of what I went through with my little lovely dogs almost 3 years ago. Their 3rd b-days are coming up already. Wow, time flies. Take your time to find a breeder that you are very, very sure of. We don't get to keep our dogs for very long so we must make the best of that time we have with them. Starting out on the right foot is a real asset. ......Although, on the other hand..........................................do you want me to tell you all about my back yard bred Chihuahuas? LOL. :aetsch:

You will find the perfect puppy for you and your family if you do your due diligence. Besides the sticky thread on here, go to Google and look up how to find a reputable breeder, what makes a reputable breeder.


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled, that was an awesome response, thank you for taking the time. It really gave me perspective. It strikes me that if I were getting a dog from shelter, I would not be worrying about its future health problems -- as you say, no dog (or any other creature) is guaranteed perfect health. 

This breeder certainly isn't horrible; she clearly loves her dogs and has done some testing, and she only has a couple of litters a year. I am so, so tempted to say "yes" to undo the pain I have caused my children. But yet, I just have this underlying concern that I cannot shake -- this vitamin and the company have been described as a "scam" by reputable sources. If her contract is that screwy, how good is her ability to breed well? Your post encouraged me to follow my instinct. If I'm uneasy, there may be good reason.

I had an encouraging conversation with Mary from Avalon this morning, and I'm hoping to connect with Safari soon. I'm very lucky to live a couple of hours from two breeders with such good reputations. While the health guarantee probably is pointless because we could never return a puppy we'd already bonded with, the fact that these breeders have straightforward contracts increases my comfort level.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

While I think health guarantees are not very worthwhile, I prefer to deal with a breeder who wants us both to sign a contract. I feel contracts clarify the breeder/buyer relationship and allows you to work out any misconceptions that might exist, such as when the breeder wants the puppy spayed, the price of the puppy, and what you should do if for some reason you cannot keep the puppy.

When I see in a contract that the breeder wants you to return the puppy if you cannot keep it, that shows me the breeder feels a responsibility towards the dogs she is breeding that goes beyond the profit she may be making. My husband and I have no children, and if something were to happen to both of us, I would certainly want Dakota returned to the breeder so she could find a new home for him.

So I feel a contract is a good thing for both parties involved.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Does she have titles on her dogs? I feel this is very important...to show they conform to the structural and temperamental conformation. Titles or some kind of demonstration that they are well put together AND can do what they're bred to do...physically and mentally. Agility titles or some other sport that represents what they're bred to be able to do is every bit as important as conformation titles. If a person doesn't show their dog in any of those kinds of venues, does the breeder hunt with her dogs? Do they retrieve and work well along side their people? Can they run for a long ways without breaking down? All these things come into play in choosing a good dog. Not one without the other imo. It's the whole dog imo that matters, not simply if they have a piece of paper or a health test. How long have dogs in the lines lived? How many years could they work if they're a farm dog? Longevity, ability, temperament...so many things. The whole dog. It's like looking at a horse. You don't look at just his head or his withers or his feet and legs. (although those legs are pretty dang important) You look at the whole animal from several feet away and you watch. So be careful not to zero in on one or two aspects of a dog and his relatives (or the breeder and her relatives. lol) Look at the whole picture.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

WinnieJane said:


> What do you think of a contract that has a one-year health guarantee contingent on the use of NuVet vitamins? I gather the breeder gets a cut, as a link and purchase code are provided -- although it wouldn't add up to much, as even a 20% cut would come to only about $40 for a year.
> 
> I think this is annoying and perhaps not enforceable. Do you think it's a red flag to other possible issues?
> 
> Thank you for your insight -- this forum is invaluable.


I think it's weird...and unnecessary


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

WOW! Avalon has beautiful dogs and I like that they are Vets and have a 5 year guarantee (for whatever a guarantee is worth) I also like that they temperment test and fit the dog to the owner. There is nothing to not like about them!GOOD LUCK!!!!! And do let us know when you get your new pup!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Mini poo...when I was in a class one time with my breeder, Matisse was young and being a little pita at the time. I asked my breeder jokingly, "Do you want him back?" And he said very seriously, "Yeah! Sure!" I had to quickly tell him I was kidding. I think that's important too...very, that a breeder continues a relationship with you and your dog. I know this man would gladly take back my dogs if I needed him to. But I do agree with you that a contract is erring on the safe side. On the other hand, what if a breeder really didn't want the dog back but had signed such a contract, would I want him to take the dog back due to specific performance and all that jazz? A contract that forces something like that isn't worth much to me because I wouldn't want someone to have my dogs if they didn't want them. But if the breeder is truly a good person and you feel very good about the person and what their dogs mean to them, then for my money, they'll take them back and find a good home. As it is, I have a couple people waiting in the wings for my dogs should something happen to me. Oh, and that's another thing...some contracts insist on taking the dogs back if something happens to you, even if you'd rather give them to someone else.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

WinnieJane said:


> Poodlebeguiled, that was an awesome response, thank you for taking the time. It really gave me perspective. It strikes me that if I were getting a dog from shelter, I would not be worrying about its future health problems -- as you say, no dog (or any other creature) is guaranteed perfect health.
> 
> This breeder certainly isn't horrible; she clearly loves her dogs and has done some testing, and she only has a couple of litters a year. I am so, so tempted to say "yes" to undo the pain I have caused my children. But yet, I just have this underlying concern that I cannot shake -- this vitamin and the company have been described as a "scam" by reputable sources. If her contract is that screwy, how good is her ability to breed well? Your post encouraged me to follow my instinct. If I'm uneasy, there may be good reason.
> 
> I had an encouraging conversation with Mary from Avalon this morning, and I'm hoping to connect with Safari soon. I'm very lucky to live a couple of hours from two breeders with such good reputations. While the health guarantee probably is pointless because we could never return a puppy we'd already bonded with, the fact that these breeders have straightforward contracts increases my comfort level.


I have worked with both Mary from Avalon and Cynthia from Safari. Both quality breeders.  I got my first show dog from Cynthia.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Lily's sire is a Ch from Safari lines.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

In my search for the right breeder of our next pup, I'm coming across all sorts of requirements in contracts and health guarantees. I thought I'd found the right breeder until I discovered 2 requirements that had to be met in order for the health guarantee to be valid and I wasn't comfortable with either requirement. Another breeder in my area required the NuVet supplement and I also marked her off my list. 

My list of questions that I ask potential breeders as gotten longer since my search started but I think it'll be worth it. Sounds like you are on the right track for finding a great breeder and a great pup! Best of luck!


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Thank you to Becky and again to all of you who helped me in this decision.

I know this thread will come up next time someone searches "Lake Sai" so I want to complete the story, to give a fair and balanced perspective on what happened.

I truly do not think this breeder inserted the NuVet clause as a money making scheme. She was very surprised when I raised concerns -- as she rightly noted, she'll make very little on the vitamins and she didn't understand why we'd complain about a minimal expenditure. She said she set it up this way so she could try to ensure we used them, as she strongly believes in their value. 

She even offered to take the clause out, provided we agreed to a raw food diet. Now, I personally don't want that requirement, but I do think it indicates good faith on her part.

Her site is transparent -- the dogs' test results are there and she is in no way misrepresenting her breeding. 

We ultimately decided not to proceed because we realized this was not a good match for us, but I don't want to cast doubts on her integrity.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

You have received some valuable advice from some very experienced poodle people here and I think you made the right decision on passing on this pup.

I do have a couple of additional comments. On the vitamins, a very wise veterinarian friend said to a client of his that if your dog is getting a very high quality food then the vitamins should not be necessary as the proper nutrients are in the food. 

While this breeder may love her dogs, selling vitamin supplements will not overcome structural defects or other physical isssues not yet tested for. But then, you already know that.

One of our forum members has a really lovely dog, Dulcie, who is from Mary at Avalon. She is a very responsible breeder.

Your search will eventually lead you to your ideal new family member. Best of luck.

Viking Queen


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## RylieJames (Feb 3, 2016)

*Vitamins*

I just wanted to add to the discussion on vitamins. I took a class at the Cornell Vet School (one of the best vet schools in the country) and my professor spent a long time talking about how the vitamins for dogs are pointless as long as the dog is on a healthy nutritious diet. Further, he said that the quality dog food brands create the perfect balance of nutrients that your dog needs. When you give a supplement on top of that, you can throw things off and do more harm than good.

So the take-home of that lecture: feed your dog top-quality food and ditch the vitamins.

Just my $0.02.


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