# Reaction to Permethrin--Mini Poodles most at risk



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Ugh the vet was totally unhelpful. tried to claim permethrin was SAFER for humans and pets. Nothing I've found says that. 

I'm watching him today--lucky to be off work right now and I'll take him to emergency if I see more symptoms. so far, he's still just sleeping, but his gums are a normal color, he doesn't seem to be in distress, and he isn't vomiting or having diaharrea, and he's holding the little bits of food and water down.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

How awful. That does sound like a reaction. I administer Frontline Plus, I will have to check if it has this ingredient. Poor Fozzie, that is scary. I hope he is feeling better.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I find that the vets sort of turn a blind eye (the conventional ones, anyway) when they are asked to critique any pharmaceuticals that they prescribe. I hope Fozzie is ok. Very scarey.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I have been using Revolution on Sunny.....and did so because his breeder had been using on him for his first 3 years with good results and no reactions.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Oh dear! I'm very sorry to hear Fozzie had an adverse reaction to the flea and tick topical. Sorry too to hear how your vet responded. You did the right thing bathing Fozzie in Dawn to remove the product. Your vet needs to do the right thing and report your experience to the manufacturer, and I think the EPA as well. You too should contact the manufacturer, they HAVE to keep records of such reports of adverse reactions. And maybe report it to the EPA too. Glad you can keep an eye on Fozzie today! I had a similar experience using Vectra 3D a few years ago and reported it, my vet also filed reports.:clover:

*Bayer HealthCare manufacturers K9Advantix II*
Consumer Questions 1-800-255-6826
Medical Emergencies 1-800-422-9874

EPA Evaluation of Pet Spot-On Products: Analysis and Mitigation Plan | Pesticides | US EPA
*What to Do if Your Pet Shows Adverse Effects*
EPA recommends that veterinarians use the National Pesticide Information Center’s Veterinary Pesticide Adverse Effects Reporting portal Exit EPA disclaimer to report incidents.

Pet owners can report incidents through several routes:

Tell the Registrant: *Pet owners should always report adverse effects to the product registrant. Pesticide manufacturers are required by law to report incident information to EPA. Contact information can be found on the product label. Clearly identify the name of the product used, the EPA Registration Number, the type and breed of animal affected, symptoms observed in the pet, and any other details pertaining to the incident.
*
*Tell EPA*: Forward the information in our “ask a question” site:
Go to the Pesticides Frequent Questions Web page
Select "flea and tick products" on the left sidebar
The question that will give you the information about reporting an incident will be one of the first questions. Or you can search for ID number 18052 using the advanced search function near the top of the left sidebar.

*Tell Your Veterinarian*: Veterinarians have access to a reporting mechanism called the Veterinary Pesticide Adverse Effects Reporting portal Exit EPA disclaimer to report incidents. This portal is not for use by the public.

Tell the National Pesticide Information Center: Call 1-800-858-7378 to report an incident.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

ChagallsMom just like SchnauzerPoodle you are a friend to me and our breed in need. will absolutely follow up. Fozzie was nearly recovered in less than 24 hours after bathing him, thank goodness, though he was still lethargic for another 24 hours after. 

If it weren't for the internet who knows how much costly vet care it would have been to fix this issue. I'm so irritated at my vet for forcing this medicine on me when NOTHING was wrong before. He had been on Frontline Plus for years without a problem. 

SchnauzerPoodle and I use the same practice, but the vet that we share wasn't in the office the day I went in for the flea meds. From now I will just buy FrontlinePlus online and tell that other vet, NO THANK YOU.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

FozziesMom said:


> SchnauzerPoodle and I use the same practice, but the vet that we share wasn't in the office the day I went in for the flea meds. From now I will just buy FrontlinePlus online and tell that other vet, NO THANK YOU.


Be careful when you buy online. I have seen reports about getting counterfeit items (even on Amazon because orders can be filled by other suppliers). I buy my Frontline Plus from Costco, sometimes from the low-cost clinic at Pet Food Express. I don't take Nickel there for any vaccines but I use them for:

1. Routine fecal exams
2. Purchase flea & tick preventative
3. Purchase heartworm preventative (A heartworm blood test is mandatory but it's free if you are going to buy 12-month supply of any heart worm preventative. I only use the product suggested by my vet.)

I let my vet know this is what I have been doing and she's okay with it. She just told me to send her a copy of any test results so that they could keep a better record for Nickel. She even told me the warranty of the preventatives should apply just the same way since they are prescribed by from licensed veterinarians at licensed clinics.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Just posted the stuff to the EPA and ordered the frontline from wag.com which stocks the frontline plus. 

I'm on the fence about the Vet. More than a week later they finally called to check on him. What burns me is that they wanted me to come in and pay for a visit when they were the ones who said I should switch to this. And now having read about the extreme toxicity to cats, especially elderly cats, I have to wonder, what the hell was she thinking? And do I dare trust my pets with that practice any more? 

They've offered me my money back for the treatments, but I'm so angry, I don't even know if I want to deal with the situation in person.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I am so sorry to hear about poor Fozzie's reaction! I'm glad he's feeling better.

Is this a new vet? I am absolutely shocked that a vet would switch you off a modern flea topical like Frontline and give you a product that uses the old-school chemical permethrin. Permethrin is a synthetic version of the natural chemical pyrethrum. It is more powerful than pyrethrum and is highly toxic to cats. Many owners have reported adverse reactions to permethrin-based topicals. These are the spot-on products sold in grocery stores. (Back in the day before the advent of all of these flea products, we used flea dips, flea powders and flea collars containing permethrin and pyrethrum.

Frontline and Advantage use modern chemicals that seem to be better tolerated. Plus, these products work much better than permethrin. I just don't know why your vet would switch you over.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

OK, I was not familiar with this product and just looked it up. It seems that the main ingredient is indoxacarb. Permithrin is a secondary ingredient contained in the tick version of the product (I'm guessing indoxacarb doesn't kill ticks?).

Anyway, I am always very wary of new flea products. I would not use a new product myself until it has been out a few years so we can see what happens with it.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Not only is she not a new vet, she is the President of the San Francisco branch of the American Veterinary Association! I long stopped visiting her, due to her absolute rigidity on feeding raw, but her partner, who Schnauzerpoodle also uses, is quite good. I was headed over there to buy meds, when they told me they'd stopped selling Frontline because the Permethrin product was "safer to humans and more effective." This other (bad) vet actually pulled me into a room on the fly to explain why this was a better medicine for my dog. I have no idea either. But I have to say I'm at a loss to find a better vet in the city. I may have to switch to someone outside the city, perhaps even a holistic vet who also does western meds. I'm still steaming mad. FozziesPa is even more pissed off.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

actually Permethrin is 45% of Activyl Tick Plus the indocarbs are 23%. I looked this up on the EPA website.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*FozziesMom: *A number of vets in our area switched to Vectra 3D, k9Advantix II or Certifect in the last few years because, they said, Frontline seemed to loose its efficacy around here. That was also my firsthand experience, after years of successfully using it. It's getting so there are more flea and tick products out there than you can shake a stick at. And more coming down the pike all the time! Leading to more confusion and concern along the way. :confused3: 
DogAware.com News Archive: Flea and Tick Control


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

FozziesMom said:


> Not only is she not a new vet, she is the President of the San Francisco branch of the American Veterinary Association! I long stopped visiting her, due to her absolute rigidity on feeding raw, but her partner, who Schnauzerpoodle also uses, is quite good. I was headed over there to buy meds, when they told me they'd stopped selling Frontline because the Permethrin product was "safer to humans and more effective." This other (bad) vet actually pulled me into a room on the fly to explain why this was a better medicine for my dog. I have no idea either. But I have to say I'm at a loss to find a better vet in the city. I may have to switch to someone outside the city, perhaps even a holistic vet who also does western meds. I'm still steaming mad. FozziesPa is even more pissed off.


I would be pissed too. She blamed on the raw food every time Nickel went in for any reason. That's when I decided to not see her at all. I only see the other vet there. When I call in, I make it clear that I only want to not see her. I'm very happy with the partner and I will continue to take Nickel to see her although scheduling an appointment with her can be difficult since she only works part time.

I did a thorough research and found my holistic vet who's a little far but I am willing to go there because she's good and she works well with our regular vet. This one is a licensed DVM and is certified in veterinary acupuncture.


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

My dogs used Revolution for their April dosing. On Missy, my cream poodle, it horribly discolored her skin where the vet put it. They are on trifexis now and tolerate it wonderfully, so I don't have to worry about the skin issue. Topical doesn't work on them very well at all for flea prevention. 


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## Poodlemama99 (Feb 12, 2010)

I used revolution for a year on all my kids with no issues. They vary in weight from 7 lbs down to 2. Maggie is red (really an apricot now) and Penelope and Kensi are white where the medicine goes. I just switched them to sentinel as thy lowered the price and it is similar to interceptor which is why I used for years. The sentinel has flea prevention as well although that is not really important as my kids down go on the grass. 


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

More drama. today at the groomer, for the first time, Fozzie had what she described as "a panic attack." Turns out she was blow drying him normally (and I've bathed and blown him dry myself so I know he shivers a bit but is quite calm during drying), and when they got to the back of his head/neck, he started screaming--her word--for about 30 seconds. His anal glands let go (she said it was the stuff deep inside that isn't normally expressed). 

I don't know what to make of it, but I've decided to move to a holistic + Western med vet in our area who comes highly recommended. He ate normally tonight and the diahrrea has stopped from this morning, but I don't know.

I am most worried about having to board him when we leave on a trip soon. I am hoping I can use a holistic flea prevention spray vs. a pesticide until I can get him into this new vet in a few weeks.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

How distressing, *FozziesMom*! Poor Fozzie! I think it's very wise of you to consult a integrative medicine vet. It also may be worth calling the manufacturer of the top spot you used again. I don't know if there's a connection to its use, but I would report it for the record.
Activyl
To report an adverse reaction, product-related problem, or human exposure, please call Merck Animal Health Technical Services:
800-224-5318 Companion Animal (Dogs, Cats)

Dr. Karen Becker suggests a detoxification routine can be helpful for dogs whose systems are stresses by chemicals, vaccines, etc. Maybe the new vet will design a similar program for Fozzie.
Does Your Pet Need a Natural Detox Program?.

She sells a natural flea and tick preventative, and some forum members are using Alzoo with success. Alzoo | Veterinary Products for Pets' Health Care and Beauty. I think you'll be able to find something safe and effective to use. Now I'm going to go brew_ you_ a cup of calming tea!  Really sorry for all you worry, FM!:hug:


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

That is really scarey. I do hope the new vet will bring comfort to Fozzie and to you. I have found that holistic vets look at the whole picture, and go from there. Also, they are not so quick to prescribe pharmaceuticals as quickly. Good luck. I was thrilled when I switched Jake (he was 3 then) to a holistic vet. He had allergies, internal and external, and my conventional vet kept prescribing steroids, etc., and I was so glad to get him off of them. We switched to a raw diet, the body did it's own "detox" and we never looked back. I hope things improve for you.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh! Poor Fozzie and poor you. I'd be raging mad too. I'm so sick of some of these "conventional" (for lack of better word) vets. Why on earth did that vet switch when the other one was working fine?!? And the reaction you were given! Man! That panic attack...what in the world? I'm so very sorry. And hope he's on the mend now. I hate the whole thing of dumping more chemicals on dogs. Our world is so full of chemicals and really scary things in the environment as it is. I am also going to check out a holistic vet because I'm not thrilled with the vet I've been using. He's so stuck in the dark ages. What is up with this continued education they're suppose to get? I see no evidence of that with my vet. There just has to be a better way to prevent fleas. I've been lucky so far (knock on wood) that I haven't noticed any fleas on my dogs since moving back to Washington, which is weird because we always had fleas before with past dogs here. In Idaho, I had no fleas because the winters were too harsh, I guess. 

I will now go watch that video by Dr. Becker. I like her. 

I hope Fozzie experiences no more issues with this. Is he better today? Could the hair dryer have burned him...maybe because his skin was already sore from the flea/tick stuff? You know...where it wouldn't have burned him normally since the groomer has been grooming him for a long time and must know not to put the dryer too close. I send you my very best wishes for his healing, both physically and emotionally. Poor fella.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Could the hair dryer have burned him...maybe because his skin was already sore from the flea/tick stuff? You know...where it wouldn't have burned him normally since the groomer has been grooming him for a long time and must know not to put the dryer too close. I send you my very best wishes for his healing, both physically and emotionally. Poor fella.


This is an interesting possibility to ponder, Fozzie's skin perhaps being hypersensitive because of the topical. I would be really interested to hear whether the people at Merck (who made the topical used on Fozzie) have anything to say about this. This reinforces my thinking they should be contacted.hone:


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

thank you all so much. the holistic vet cannot see him for several weeks. this morning he had a soft, but formed bowel movement, but at the moment is on my lap--very not normal for him int he mornings, he usually a ball of energy after he wakes up. 

I have been checking his skin daily since the exposure and I pet him there a lot. I do know he scratches his neck a lot but I cannot find a sore, and he doesn't seem to mind my petting/scratching/rubbing there. 

We are switching to the holistic vet but they cannot see him until after we come back from our upcoming trip, and he is being boarded during this time. After reading extensively on pre seizures I see that there's no real test for epilepsy and nothing they should do if a dog has just one seizure. Other mitigating factors from yesterday: he'd had diahrrea in the morning and wouldn't eat, so he may have been dehydrated and low blood sugar. 

Assuming normal eating and drinking habits continue like last night and tonight then I think he will be ok to board, with strict instructions to montor and seek vet attention should it happen again. They normally bathe the dogs before pick up, in this case I'll make it clear not to use the blow drier and let him fluff dry. just in case. The holistic vet in this town also makes a natural flea/tick repellant spray that came highly recommended from the holistic pet food store I trust (they were the ones who got me to put kitty on raw years ago), so I'll have them use that while he's in boarding. 

Poor thing. Neither FP nor I could sleep last night. We are so worried about Fozzie, but even more so we feel so betrayed by our vet. I have never felt so helpless in my life. Seems like so many vets are just profit driven. I don't mind them making money, but when they put a dog's life in danger, it just hurts me with every fiber of my being. I cannot wrap my head around it and it upsets me. 

Thank you all, so much for being here, it's times like these when our community can do so much for each other and our pets. What a gift this place is.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm so glad Fozzie is feeling better, and that you are feeling more confident about leaving him in boarding. I find your vet's response outrageous - firstly, she should have been aware of the potential risk to small breeds, and secondly, far, far more supportive when you reported a problem. I do recall reading that certain flea treatments were unsafe to use on dogs that live with cats - this, and the fact that some treatments are contraindicated for certain breeds, is the sort of information you rely on your vet to know and to consider and explain when prescribing. It is precisely why we go to a professional, and don't buy the cheapest stuff available on the internet!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*FozziesMom*: Wondering how your boy is doing?? I know you have a lot on your mind, but when you have a moment please let us know how he's getting along. I hope he's acting more like himself and feeling better.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Thanks for checking in with us! We got a call back from Merck today, I need to call them tomorrow. Fozzie is mostly back to normal but I won't be trying to blow dry his neck any time soon. I'm absolutely convinced the topical flea/tick was the cause.


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