# researching a breeder



## cookieface

Is there something like _Consumer Reports_ or a Better Business Bureau for breeders? I've spoken to a breeder who seems reputable and has been mentioned positively by several people on Poodle Forum. She didn't foresee having a puppy for me in the near future, but recommended another breeder. 

There's limited information on the other breeder's site about her dogs and breeding practices. I've searched for more information on the web and here, but haven't found anything. I've just started looking at poodle health registry, poodle pedigree database, OFA, and CERF. Unfortunately, I don't have too many details about the particular sire and dam to research them specifically. Also, I'm learning as I go about health testing and scoring, so it's a slow process.

The particular breeder has been around for over 50 years (not sure if that's good or bad). I'm reluctant to post the names of either breeder as I wouldn't want to offend anyone should one of them post or lurk here. Both are on the US east coast.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl

I'm wanting to know the same thing but my tentative conclusion is no. 

There are online data bases where you can check a dog's testing but you have to know the "official" name of the dog to check (which may not be the same as the nickname). 

Any opinions on PoodlesOnline.com? It seems to want to be such a clearinghouse and the owner does say she personally checks the testing data of each breeder listed. 

I'm in a similar situation to cookieface.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl

Sorry, posted dupe and can't delete!


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## PaddleAddict

I have found that posting the kennel name here helps... there are many knowledgeable poodle people on this board. You will hopefully get information from someone with firsthand knowledge of the breeder.

By the way, you won't be offeding anyone. Great breeders have nothing to hide and don't mind people who ask questions about them. Not-so-great breeders might not like people discussing their breeding practices, but so be it. The greatest thing about the internet is the free exchange of consumers and as puppy buyers, we are consumers.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl

Well, OK. I'll list some of the breeders that I've considered based on a combo of factors including availability of pups in this calendar year, good breeding practices, and location (we'd rather be in driving distance, although in some cases the drives are too long for both a preliminary visit and a pickup; but we'll consider shipping if it's not too long a trip for the pup). One is the breeder of my last dog, who was wonderful, and I'm only hesitating because I'm a more informed puppy-buyer now and I am gathering a little more info on her. 

Nanjac (FL)
Cameo Poodles (upstate NY)
C-Brook Poodles (upstate NY)
Sylons Red Poodles (OH)
DuPuy Poodles (VA)
Firelake (IN) 
June's Poodles (upstate NY - this one was a word of mouth rec...)
I also have breeder recs for breeders w/o websites in WI and elsewhere. 

I know people will say Cabryn since I'm in NJ, but I've been there and did not fall in love with their dogs, lookswise... although I adored having about 25 spoos jumping up on me to be petted! Their temperaments were great. I was a little uncomfortable with the crowded kennel atmosphere.


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## cookieface

Can I ask specifically about Sarbrae in NY and Unique in PA?


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## liljaker

NorthJerseyGirrl, I sent you a pvt message, not knowing it was ok to post individual breeders in posts, etc., but since you can, thought I'd mention that I have friends with spoos (and a current 5 y.o. girl) and have gotten all from Cabryn and they are great. I was not that familiar with standard breeders, but also spoke with Carolyn when I was looking for a young pup, as the urging of my friends. She only had a toy, and I did want a bigger dog. That said, they have been more than happy with the poodles, as this is their 2nd from Cabryn, and their friends (3 I can recall) all have Cabryn spoos. I am not familiar with others mentioned, but thought I would mention this.


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## starpoodle

Any info on Sharwood Poodles out of FL? Or West Coast Poodles in southern CA?

Unless I know the breeder is reputable -- and I'm in the process of figuring out which ones are -- I'm reluctant to send money for a puppy that is too far away to visit in person. With a highly reputable breeder, a good phone conversation and information exchange, verification from satisfied families, and a few photos, I would be greatly reassured. 

I don't want to rule out breeders because of the distance, but it's hard to be comfortable mailing out a few thousand dollars for the pup and shipping, to a person you've never met and a pup you've never seen.


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## minipoodlelover

For those in NJ, I've heard good things about Barclay Poodles in Abington, PA and know someone whose pup came from there and is very happy.


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## DonnaM

I'm into Mini Poos so I can not comment on the specific Spoo breeders but I can post about what I look for in a breeder. I look for breeders who raise their puppies in their home, all surrounded by the normal daily household sounds/activities. Someone who has begun the concept of outdoor potty training. That has gotten the puppy to view a crate as a safe comfortable place to be for a few hours at a time throughout the night. Has exposed the puppies to the sounds and sesations of grooming, hair drier, clippers ect.. People that are open and honest about their dogs, provde full registered names/pedigrees. Breeders that question me a great deal about my experience in raising a puppy. People that work to ensure that I have the time and commitment for a dog and am prepared for the expense of grooming. People that appear to be willing to turn me down if I don't appear to be a good match. Breeders that provide information on how to get health information on their dogs. I need to see that they will continue to be interested in the dog's progress throughout their lifetime. I like it if I'm asked for references from a vet or groomer and that they are able to provide contacts to other buyers. Last but not least, I need to have evidence that they are connected to other poodle breeders and get the feeling that they truly enjoy talking about poodles.


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## Rowan

liljaker said:


> NorthJerseyGirrl, I sent you a pvt message, not knowing it was ok to post individual breeders in posts, etc., but since you can, thought I'd mention that I have friends with spoos (and a current 5 y.o. girl) and *have gotten all from* *Cabryn and they are great*. I was not that familiar with standard breeders, but also spoke with Carolyn when I was looking for a young pup, as the urging of my friends. She only had a toy, and I did want a bigger dog. *That said, they have been more than happy with the poodles, as this is their 2nd from Cabryn, and their friends (3 I can recall) all have Cabryn spoos. I am not familiar with others mentioned, but thought I would mention this*.


(This isn't directed at liljaker, but just a general statement. )
There are a number of Cabryn Poodle owners on this forum (myself, Chagall's Mom to name two).  I've only heard positive feedback from all of them about Carolyn _and _her poodles. I have a Cabryn Poodle (Cabryn Silver Bullet) that I "adopted" from another breeder who was forced into retirement. I've been in contact with Carolyn since I decided to take him in. He has a fantastic temperament, despite being a relatively ignored and unsocialized stud dog for the first five and a half years of his life. He never ceases to amaze me. I attribute a lot of that to breeding and his early weeks of life with Carolyn. 

This is just a personal observation so YMMV, but IMHO, I think it's a mistake to put so much emphasis on a dog's "look" or "appearance" that you sacrifice temperament and health. You might go looking for a black poodle and end up with a silver poodle because the latter has a better health record and temperament for your lifestyle. You never know. Yeah, we all have our preferences. And some of us seek physical perfection. But don't sell a dog short just because he doesn't meet all of your preconceived notions as to what makes a perfect poodle. Personally, I don't think there is any such thing, but there are perfect poodles for each and every one of us. 

Had I judged my initial breeder's poodles on her horrible website photographs or her housekeeping skills, I would have missed out on Alexander the Great, and that would have been *my *loss.


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## 2719

Rowan said:


> This is just a personal observation so YMMV, but IMHO, I think it's a mistake to put so much emphasis on a dog's "look" or "appearance" that you sacrifice temperament and health. You might go looking for a black poodle and end up with a silver poodle because the latter has a better health record and temperament for your lifestyle. You never know. Yeah, we all have our preferences. And some of us seek physical perfection. But don't sell a dog short just because he doesn't meet all of your preconceived notions as to what makes a perfect poodle. Personally, I don't think there is any such thing, but there are perfect poodles for each and every one of us.
> 
> Had I judged my initial breeder's poodles on her horrible website photographs or her housekeeping skills, I would have missed out on Alexander the Great, and that would have been *my *loss.


I couldn't have put it better myself. Rowan, excellent comment. Wouldn't you rather have a healthy poodle with a great temperament than a high strung, unsocialised poodle with a gorgeous fur coat? 

And please please please will someone start a thread that gives definitions for all the short forms used....I am clueless sometimes and cannot get the gist of what is being said. YMMV? can't figure it out. IMHO...in my humble opinion?


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## NorthJerseyGirrl

^^
Internet Acronyms Dictionary

Rowan, I posted elsewhere that a poodle pup dropped into my inbox in a way that felt like an act of God, so Libby, a tiny toy from Ash's, will arrive on Monday. We were certainly not seeking such a small one -- she will be about 6 lbs -- but she has melting eyes and we felt we had to say yes. 

Your post is wonderful. I feel the symptoms of MPS (not sure you will find it on that acronym website, truelove -- Multiple Poodle Syndrome) coming on and if we can ever get another one, I hope it will be a less "lucky" pup. I was starting to contact rescue groups when Libby turned up in my mail. 

The name "Alexander the Great" reminds me of a quote from Howard Thurman -- "He put a crown on her head so high she spent the rest of her life living up to it." ("He" is Jesus; "she" is the woman taken in adultery.)


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## Rowan

truelovepoodles said:


> I couldn't have put it better myself. Rowan, excellent comment. Wouldn't you rather have a healthy poodle with a great temperament than a high strung, unsocialised poodle with a gorgeous fur coat?
> 
> And please please please will someone start a thread that gives definitions for all the short forms used....I am clueless sometimes and cannot get the gist of what is being said. YMMV? can't figure it out. IMHO...in my humble opinion?


Thanks, *Truelovepoodles*. 
YMMV = your mileage may vary 
IMHO = In my humble opinion 

*NJG*:
My poodle was named (by the breeder) after _the _"Alexander the Great" (born 356 BC), the king of Macedonia who founded one of the largest empires in ancient history. He accomplished this before his 30th birthday and died at age thirty-three. His military tactics are still taught and referenced to this day. It was one of many reasons I fell in love with him. 
(I'm not entirely sure I get the Thurman quote significance.)


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## Chagall's mom

liljaker said:


> NorthJerseyGirrl, I sent you a pvt message, not knowing it was ok to post individual breeders in posts, etc., but since you can, thought I'd mention that I have friends with spoos (and a current 5 y.o. girl) and have gotten all from Cabryn and they are great. I was not that familiar with standard breeders, but also spoke with Carolyn when I was looking for a young pup, as the urging of my friends. She only had a toy, and I did want a bigger dog. That said, they have been more than happy with the poodles, as this is their 2nd from Cabryn, and their friends (3 I can recall) all have Cabryn spoos. I am not familiar with others mentioned, but thought I would mention this.


I just wanted to add that I, along with 10 other people I know well, and a number of others I know casually, have and adore our Cabryn poodles. I admit to a bias here, but apparently it's shared by more than a few AKC judges. Cabryn has 98 homegrown champions over the past 50 years, and I_ love_ the look these poodles. Two of her silver toy champions in particular make me swoon, but then, I'm a fan of the silvers! Of course what matters most to me is the health and temperament of a poodle, but when that's mixed with great movement and looks, well, it just doesn't get any better than that!

Though I've been to the Cabryn grooming shop many times, and it is a busy place, I haven't had the good fortune to meet "25 spoos" there, as NorthJerseyGirl apparently did. Nonetheless, had I, I would know with confidence they were all health-tested, well cared for, with good temperaments and appearances that comply with the established breed standard.

I _completely_ understand people having different expectations and reactions to breeders' practices. I can say Chagall came to us at 9 weeks of age very well socialized. When we went to pick him up, he came running over to me; he sat peacefully on my lap on the ride home and fell asleep. When we got home, he explored and sniffed around our property, not at all concerned with the noise made by my neighbor while haying, or the horses or sheep--he was just curious and silly like a sweet well-adjusted puppy would be. He was certainly tired that evening, though! He couldn't have cared less about he vacuum cleaner or umbrellas or even the school bus; things some pups are initially frightened of. Of course he loved people from the start; young, old, men with beards, people in wheelchairs--all of us!

I always like to celebrate someone getting the poodle they want. We all go about that in different ways. For instance, many, many people fly their dogs in cargo safely, all over the world. Me, I just couldn't do it! I'd drive to the West Coast and back from my home in New Jersey first, but that doesn't mean there's a darn thing wrong with others choosing to transport the poodles differently. I also chose to first meet any dog I decide to take into our home, while again, many, many people see their pups in photos only, laying eyes on them for the first time when they're shipped to them, and have a fabulous experience. 

I guess all my ramblings come down to the notion of personal preference. Just as "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," I suppose someone's comfort level in selecting a breeder and a poodle is a very personal decision as well. I always go for the "happy ending," and wish everyone to be as happy with the poodle they select as I am with my beloved Cabryn poodle!


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## papoodles

*Unique Standards, Pa.*

Hi cookieface,
I am very lucky because by Joan of Unique Standards has allowed me to be on her waiting list for a white puppy for next year, 2012.
My friend Ora Marcus (Ormar Standards)who breeds the most GORGEOUS , tested, healthy,champion standards in Ontario, guided me to Joan, for which I am very grateful as that took all the burden of looking for a healthy poodle from me. 
Ora used to be on this forum, search for Whitepoodles here, and her comments on UNIQUE, and you will see why I am so happy .
Joan is within a 3 hour drive from me, making this an all around perfect situation.
Update on one of Ora's puppies:
Ormar Whisperin Willow: She is in both the regular (Canada-wide) Puppy standings and
also in the Ontario Puppy Standings. She is currently # 5 Standard Poodle puppy and # 3 in Ontario.


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## Keithsomething

That's so exciting Papoodles!! The whites in Pennsylvania are among the best in the country (IMO) you'll be very happy with your pup!!!


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## minipoodlelover

What a beautiful post Chagall's mom and I couldn't agree more. Good health, temperament, and early ongoing socialization are so important in choosing a poodle. Reputable breeders who meet these criteria are worth their weight in gold, and the pups they make available to us pet owners are true treasures. From my own research, I've seen these top-notch breeders also produce poodles who are intelligent and conform to the breed standard, and are also physically beautiful. 

From that point, we all have our own individual tastes but I sincerely value reputable breeders who put the time, effort, love, and commitment into the pups they bring into this world. I learned the hard way that there is a big difference between a breeder of Cabryn's quality, compared to that person you've heard of who sells poodle puppies near your home to anyone who can pay, no questions asked. A great reputation as a breeder is the product of years and years of love and dedication, and is not something bestowed upon a breeder casually or lightly. 

From this forum, I learned what to look for in a good breeder and although I didn't get Angie from Cabryn, I am personally acquainted with one person who did, and that poodles is not only a head-turner, but he is temperamentally everything she could have hoped for, and more.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl

Does any breeder have such devoted clients as Cabryn? It's pretty remarkable... and I admit the pictures here speak for themselves! 

I seriously considered Sylon, Cameo, and Koehl's, who produce gorgeous dogs including champions and whose dogs are used by other breeders who do test. (It was explained to me that in such cases the purchasing breeder will pay to test the dogs who were not tested by the selling breeder.) Sylon was the breeder of my last dog, who was perfectly wonderful. I felt that all three were very experienced, caring breeders and they all test, only not as regularly or as extensively as recommended here. 

A side-effect of serious poodle-hunting is coming into contact with so many good people and dogs that you have to say no to. I'm sure Libby will be great but my heart is a little heavy from the no's I have said. I'm sure some of the breeders are deeply offended by the idea that their practices, judgment, and experience are not adequate in my eyes, and that bothers me. 

As for the flight... thankfully it is relatively short considering the distance (about 4.5 hrs nonstop)... I can only hope all the breeders are correct who say that the dogs manage it just fine. My last dog had a shorter way to go but many flight delays. She came out of her crate wagging her little tail, and was happy from the get-go, so that encourages me.


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## PaddleAddict

NorthJerseyGirrl said:


> Does any breeder have such devoted clients as Cabryn? It's pretty remarkable... and I admit the pictures here speak for themselves!
> 
> I seriously considered Sylon, Cameo, and Koehl's, who produce gorgeous dogs including champions and whose dogs are used by other breeders who do test. (It was explained to me that in such cases the purchasing breeder will pay to test the dogs who were not tested by the selling breeder.) Sylon was the breeder of my last dog, who was perfectly wonderful. I felt that all three were very experienced, caring breeders and they all test, only not as regularly or as extensively as recommended here.
> 
> A side-effect of serious poodle-hunting is coming into contact with so many good people and dogs that you have to say no to. I'm sure Libby will be great but my heart is a little heavy from the no's I have said. I'm sure some of the breeders are deeply offended by the idea that their practices, judgment, and experience are not adequate in my eyes, and that bothers me.
> 
> As for the flight... thankfully it is relatively short considering the distance (about 4.5 hrs nonstop)... I can only hope all the breeders are correct who say that the dogs manage it just fine. My last dog had a shorter way to go but many flight delays. She came out of her crate wagging her little tail, and was happy from the get-go, so that encourages me.


I am curious what made you choose Ash's Mystical over these other breeders?


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## NorthJerseyGirrl

^ Ash's met my criteria of doing full testing on both parents and guaranteeing their pups. Ash's generally seemed solid, experienced, caring, and professional. They were highly recommended by another reputable breeder that I had approached. I liked it that the pup's dam is a therapy dog. 

At some point I got tired of hunting for the perfect dog and perfect breeder in the perfect location, and decided to "let go and let God." This little dog came along just then. So be it!


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## minipoodlelover

Ash's is also an AKC Breeder of Merit, which I was told does mean something. There was a point with me where, after much research, I felt I had a good enough idea of what constituted a good breeder. I then allowed myself to fall in love with a pup from, yes, several emailed photos, and I trusted my instincts, knowing the breeder was reputable. It sounds to me like you did the same thing, and I have a strong feeling it's going to be a win-win all around. Congratulations to you, and to Libby! :amen:


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## cookieface

papoodles said:


> Hi cookieface,
> I am very lucky because by Joan of Unique Standards has allowed me to be on her waiting list for a white puppy for next year, 2012.
> My friend Ora Marcus (Ormar Standards)who breeds the most GORGEOUS , tested, healthy,champion standards in Ontario, guided me to Joan, for which I am very grateful as that took all the burden of looking for a healthy poodle from me.
> Ora used to be on this forum, search for Whitepoodles here, and her comments on UNIQUE, and you will see why I am so happy .
> Joan is within a 3 hour drive from me, making this an all around perfect situation.
> Update on one of Ora's puppies:
> Ormar Whisperin Willow: She is in both the regular (Canada-wide) Puppy standings and
> also in the Ontario Puppy Standings. She is currently # 5 Standard Poodle puppy and # 3 in Ontario.


Thank you for sharing your experience. If I wanted white, I'd definitely go with Unique. Joan and Gail were generous enough to spend over 2 hours talking to me about poodles  I fell head over heals for their dogs (their the 12-week-old pups were adorable). I found Unique on the PCA web site, but Ora's comments here helped reassure me that they were truly reputable breeders. 

Although I had my heart set on brown, they strongly recommended that I stick with black or white (something to do with larger gene pool, so better health and temperament). They recommended Sarbrae in NY as they plan to have a litter of black standards this fall. I'm told that both the dam and sire (I think those are the right terms) are both healthy and have wonderful temperaments. Now I'm trying to wait patiently until I know if the mating was fruitful.  

Good luck with your new spoo!


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## schnauzerpoodle

I personally don't feel that a one-year warranty is adequate. A lot of genetic diseases don't manifest themselves until later. I don't buy puppies from breeders who provide a warranty less than 2 years.

This first part of this page explains well.
This page is from a reputable schnauzer breeder but I think it applies to all breeds in general.


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## papoodles

Thank you, Keith
I was at the Schooley's Mt Kennel Club show today and met a woman who was showing her own Unique dog, and was just so happy with him..I am happy with my choice, since Ormar in Canada is too far for me to travel.
Another very good reason for me to choose Unique over some other breeders is that Joan is using one of the Ormar kids in her breeding line, her champion Cole, which is a huge compliment to Ora..so in a way- I am still connected
I know that here are many excellent breeders of whites not only here in the US but also in Canada- but how to chose which breeder is always the stressful part.
BTW-Today's winning 'best of breed' poodle was a stunning black Dassin dog..from Ohio


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