# Invisible fence and Standards.



## Marcoislandmom

Can I hear what you have experienced using the Invisible Fence? I have a 10 mo old puppy. Thanks.


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## msminnamouse

I would not EVER recommend one of these for three major reasons, let alone the moral reasons.

1. No matter how "well trained" the dog is claimed to be, all it takes is for something on the other side of the fence to be more reinforcing than the shock is punishing. Animal control picks up dogs still wearing their shock collars all the time. Not to mention, the fence can turn off if there's a power outage. 

2. The system can malfunction, shocking the dog endlessly until you notice.

3. Dogs are associative learners. All it takes is the dog getting too close to the fence when children or other dogs walk by for your dog to associate the shock with children or other dogs and thus, he can become aggressive towards them. This happens very often. Ginger was attacked thanks to this being the case with my neighbor's dog. Their dogs keep getting out of their shock fencing as well.

It's a very poor substitute for a real fence. It's not safe. Even if it does succeed in keeping your dog in, it doesn't keep others out. 

If you don't like the look of a fence or the price, you can get green chain link. It pretty much disappears against the green of the grass. Much better than shocking your dog.


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## Abbe gails Mom

The Invisible fence,will not keep any other animal out, They are not worth a crap, spend the money on a real fence, keeps your baby safe,& where they need to be, and other things that might hurt, or kill your dog, OUT!


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## Marcoislandmom

Thanks for the detailed reply. We are not allowed to have fencing in our community which is why I was thinking about the invisible fence. Given the information you provided, I will probably not do it. Thanks again.


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## julietcr1

I used the PetSafe Wireless radio invisible fence at $300 because I have a Lab-husky that would escape from any fenced yard that was not "husky proof" i.e. 8' with a 2' ciment base. When I moved the yard was fenced but not "husky proof" so I decided to use the PetSafe invisible fence until we had it fixed. I hated the idea of giving a shock but it was better then chaining her. I have to say the training was easy and not treumatic at all but she is a bulldozer, I would never use it on Sushi.

It was so convenient that we have neglected to “husky proof” the fence and one day she escaped. When we found her the new batteries in her collar were dead so I called the company to get replacement. They respond saying that my dog could have figure out how to “kill” the batteries by standing close enough to the invisible fence for long periods of time until the warning beep stops so they can cross without having a shock. Smart breed dogs usually do figure this out but they don't tell you before you buy the product! 

I put new batteries in and check her by the window and she did exactly what the vendor had told me. She stand at about 2 feet from the invisible fence for about 15 minutes than got bored and did something else then went back. The next day she did the same thing and the following days to. It took her about 4-5 days to “kill” the batteries and then she start digging under the fence to escape.

I am really surprise you are not allowed to have fencing in your community, what do other dog owners do?


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## msminnamouse

I imagine they just take their dogs on walks or put them on tie outs. Again with tie outs, it's not stopping others from coming into your yard. But I'd use one for supervised yard time, even if you stand at the window while the dog does their business. I would also use tie outs in combination with a real fence for escape prone dogs.


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## CharismaticMillie

When my husband and I were engaged last year and looking for a house, we came across lots of areas where fences are not allowed. Most people just use invisible fences and I got some strange looks from my real estate agent when I was all, "Ohhhh...bummer, nope this house won't work" because I wasn't allowed to put up a fence. We did end up finding a house in an area that allows fences... that already had a fenced in backyard.

Now, this is obviously different from _already_ living somewhere that doesn't allow fencing! But, I thought I'd explain my reasoning for going so far as to choose my house based on a _physical_ fence being a necessity, and an invisible fence *not* being an option, because it might help you understand why I don't think that invisible fences are adequate.

Reasons why an invisible fence would never work for me:

*I have an intact stud dog. 
*I have no doubt my companion girl would endure the pain of a shock if it meant chasing a deer, squirrel, or a dropped sandwhich.
*I want to feel comfortable leaving my dogs outside for an hour to play without having to wonder if the "invisible" fence is actually containing my pets and without worrying if other animals are coming into my yard.

*When I go for walks, I absolutely CANNOT STAND how all of the invisible fenced dogs *CHARGE* full speed at my dogs and me as we walk along the sidewalk. 

*I've seen way, way too many invisible fenced dogs wandering around outside their yard. 

All in all, I do not feel that an invisible fence should be used as a replacement for a physical fence. I can see how it might be something to consider but only for supervised use. Just IMO. I don't think it should be thought of as a "fence".


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## Poodlemama99

I think it is cruel to shock a dog into staying in your yard. Plus the batteries go dead and you don't know it. Some dogs go right through it to get what they want. I know all those things have already been said but I agree. Plus I never never never leave my dogs out by themselves. Coyotes, hawks, any number of creatures can get them or evn just other dogs coming into the yard. Could you do one of those fence pens that are like 6x6? At least they would have a potty place and a little yard. 


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## N2Mischief

We had an electric wire around our fence many years ago because our lab would pull off the wood slats on the fence to go join the neighbors bar b que. Their dog, a miniature poodle mix, would want to come into our yard to play with our lab. She would look at the wire and start yelping BEFORE she went under. She would gather up her courage and dive under, yelping the whole time, but wanted in our yard more than she didn't want to get shocked. We finally just disconnected the wire and let the dogs go back and forth between the yards. If they were having a bar b que they would either invite us or call and ask us to put Max in his crate, lol.


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## liljaker

I agree with the comments about the invisible fence -- although I don't have a yard anyway. But, on a similar topic, I was taking Sunny for a walk (always on leash) and a larger mixed chow type dog came rushing at us and literally in Sunny's face (and much bigger than Sunny). Luckily for me, I have a poodle who does not care one way or the other about dogs, so he ignored him. HOWEVER, since my last poodle, Jake, was attacked by an offleash doberman, I immediately pulled Sunny in on the leash and yelled to the owner, "GET YOUR DOG ON A LEASH" (the owner was 1/4 of the block away) and she replied, "He is on a leash; an electric leash." Gimme a break. Surely did not stop the dog from getting in Sunny's face and well, another dog may have reacted differently. I am sure she must have been referring to an e-collar or something similar, but since there is a leash law where I live, doubt it would pass.


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## Chagall's mom

*Marcoislandmom*: My least favorite experience with an electronic fence was when an adult male Akita, supposedly contained by one, broke through the barrier to savagely attack our former 17 lb. dog as we were walking by. The kicker; he'd apparently done it before! For all the reasons already mentioned, along with that horrible, unforgettable experience, e-fences will never get my endorsement. Glad you reached out for members' opinions on this. Your spoo will be too!


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## Pluto

I think invisable fences work really well for many dogs, but are probably not that helpful for most standards. Invisable fences require training and supervision. Once you have invested the training into a standard and just the basic supervision, the fencing is redundant - because your dog already knows the limits. Before using the fence you use flags, a leash, and the collar (that peeps as they get close to the fence) to train the dog to where the fencing is and show them their limits. The typical standard is pretty smart and this type of training, if reinforced is usually sufficent without the fencing (backup). 

Where I have seen the invisable fencing work really well-

1) inside a fenced yard to keep a dog out of flower beds and other areas. In this case the the fencing reinforces the limtis you have already trained to the dog for when left unsupervised in the fenced yard. That can include keeping dogs away from a fence line that they could otherwise dog under/go over.

2) To reinforce the limits as trained above in a subborn breed that may need additional backup to be trustworthy when offleash in the unfenced yard. It really isn't safe to use an invisable fence in an unsecured yard without supervision due to dangers to the dog "stuck" in the unfenced yard (ie no way to escape from a loose dog or other harassment without shock). And because a poodle is typically pretty trainable and less likely to be a "runner", the fencing is usually expensive and/or difficult to install and not really necissary for a trained and supervised poodle. You can get the same results from your dog with the same amount of training, without the investment in the fencing - and you are not then tempted to leave your dog in an unsafe situation (ie in a yard with just an invisable fence).


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## pinkteaji

I'm not as experienced a many of the members but I would also not use invisible fence as well. My neighbor had one with their young golden retriever and she used to be so friendly but I think she started to associate the shock with us because we would call her name (not realizing there was a invisible fence) and she's tried to come but couldn't. A month later or so she became really aggressive towards us every time we said hi to her so we stopped and eventually my neighbor just kept the dog inside. Also I think if you want dogs to be outside and play I think you could teach them (with trainer or by yourself) how to stick close to you and not go outside the grass or something like that and good recall. I've seen it done with some dogs. We don't have a fenced in yard because I live at an apartment but Ido have a yard. I basically tie my spoo with a 50ft leash and make sure the knots are right (I test it a few times before letting him play outside). Of course I don't leave him alone outside but watch him explore and sometimes play fetch with him.  


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## Jdcollins

Marcoislandmom said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply. We are not allowed to have fencing in our community which is why I was thinking about the invisible fence. Given the information you provided, I will probably not do it. Thanks again.


I live on a golf course in a private gated community and therefore not allowed a fence. The golf course backs up to a reserve so we have deer and all kinda of things wandering around on the golf course behind us.

I have 2 standard poodles with a high chase drive and I do have an invisible fence. I've had it for almost two years. For me and my dogs it has been awesome. I'm not saying it is for everyone but I do believe that the PRE training prior to it being active is a HUGE part! I did tons of research before we chose.... And by the way that "malfunction" story about a dog being shocked endlessly is a misnomer. That has never happened. In fact the fence can only give a correction for a very short distance in front of... Behind and above the underground wire. I can drive my dogs off my property in my car with their collars on without any correction. My dogs will run the length of my yard after a deer or a squirrel but stop short of the line. And the fence gives a beep warning before a correction so if they get too close they can choose to turn back. By the way.... The correction isn't the same for every dog.... There are very light corrections that u can barely feel (yes I have felt what both my dogs would feel... Which are different from each other ) or it can be more severe which may be needed for a bigger heavier dog like my neighbors mastiff. 

Rusty and Lola LOVE the freedom to come in and out... I still pay very close attention when they are out and we still take 2.5 to 3 mile walks almost every day. 

If you're interested on the PRE training let me know. It is KEY!


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## Jdcollins

I think people assume the dogs get too close and get shocked all the time.... It's just not true... They know exactly how far they can go... It is no diff then teaching them the boundaries of their yard with a long lead except there is a predictable correction 100% of the time for them which is very effective in training. Here is a very short clip to show u that they know exactly how far to go. 

http://youtu.be/IlZhfxDo2q8


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## MaryLynn

I think it would be okay depending on your dog! 

I had a neighbor with two dobes and fences were not allowed (unless surrounding a pool) and one would never cross it or seem bothered by it, the other one would take the hit to run into our yard and play with us haha. It was like he would weigh the pros and cons of being corrected vs playing with his neighbors, he almost always chose to run across it. 

So depends on how you feel your dog would do!


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## Jdcollins

MaryLynn said:


> I think it would be okay depending on your dog!
> 
> I had a neighbor with two dobes and fences were not allowed (unless surrounding a pool) and one would never cross it or seem bothered by it, the other one would take the hit to run into our yard and play with us haha. It was like he would weigh the pros and cons of being corrected vs playing with his neighbors, he almost always chose to run across it.
> 
> So depends on how you feel your dog would do!


I agree it's not for all... I know of one Person in my neighborhood (among very many who live on the course and use one as well) who did not have success ...but I must prejudicely say... It wasn't a standard poodle lol and actually it was a very tiny little dog. Neither the company nor the owner wanted to turn up the correction level any higher so the company retrieved the fence equipment and refunded her money..


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## MaryLynn

Yeah, and I mean really I'm not a big advocate of e-training or e-fences, but you have to look at the alternatives. Do you live in an area with lots of open water/pools, a golf range, lots of small kids, a busy street? I would say the 'dangers' of having absolutely no-fence can outweigh the discomfort of an e-fence. But it depends on your dog, and your own personal level of comfort using the method. Some people are very vocally against these things, but it is your dog, and if you believe the associated risks outweigh the benefits then don't use one. 

I think the greatest risks would be that it doesn't work for your dog/your lifestyle, or that your dog learns to associate the shock with things it's trying to investigate such as your neighbors etc. They're definitely not for unsupervised use like how my neighbors used them.


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## lily cd re

Aside from the potentially dangerous issues already discussed about e fences, there is one other problem that doesn't seem to have been mentioned which is that there is nothing about them that would prevent someone from stealing your dog off your property. Our fence is not just for keeping Lily and Peeves inside, but for keeping those who might dognap or otherwise do harm to them out! Anyone who spends any time near our property knows they are here and also has probably figured out that we think they are worth something. I wouldn't want to send them out to play and find they had been replaced by a ransom note. Maybe this sounds crazy but I've heard of this happening.


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## Jdcollins

lily cd re said:


> Aside from the potentially dangerous issues already discussed about e fences, there is one other problem that doesn't seem to have been mentioned which is that there is nothing about them that would prevent someone from stealing your dog off your property. Our fence is not just for keeping Lily and Peeves inside, but for keeping those who might dognap or otherwise do harm to them out! Anyone who spends any time near our property knows they are here and also has probably figured out that we think they are worth something. I wouldn't want to send them out to play and find they had been replaced by a ransom note. Maybe this sounds crazy but I've heard of this happening.


First I'll reply to something MaryLynn said..... as far as pups being confused about neighbors and such ... That is completely a non issue .... Not only can my neighbors stand on their side and talk to my dogs but they do it every day.... Rusty and Lola absolutely know where the boundary line is on all 4 sides of the property.... They always stay on our side... Wag their tails when bein greeted and then go about their business... I have neighbors that live a few streets over that walk their dogs to my house every morning around 8 to play with mine Bc they know we are outside. Rusty and Lola wait patiently until their visitors are completely inside the boundary line before they approach to play.... My kids bus stop is 3 houses away... Every morning and afternoon rusty and lola are outside watching all the kids walk to and home from bus stop... the neighborhood kids call their names and say hi as they walk by.... they watch and wag and are excited but they stay within the boundary... And sometime i will stand on the side walk which is just outside the boundary and talk to one of the bus stop kid's mom who has her big dog on leash and again mine will sit and watch and wag and whatnot but on the inside of the boundary.... they are not confused in the slightest and i don't have to remind them at all. That part is simply training and I feel sorry for any dog that wasn't trained and doesn't understand where or y a correction is happening to them.

I "can" leave them outside unattended without worry of them crossing or being corrected because they just know and they haven't done it in the last 2 years.

Now .....leaving them outside unattended to be stolen is a whole nother story and I DO think about that. 

This is why I said in a previous post I really don't leave them unattended.... They do go out on their own a bit here and there but when I'm not out there with them I am constantly looking out windows doing spot checks. I would never assume they are fine and they never ever go out alone when it's dark. 

If I had a choice .... Yes... Absolutely I would have a traditional fence but I don't have a choice and this is a good alternative... You just have to be responsible about it like any other training.

If my dogs didnt understand and kept shocking themselves I would not have it at all and just use leashes.... I don't want them to get shocked .... I want them to understand and respect the boundary and that's exactly how it is here. They run like mad all over the yard but stay away from the boundary on all 4 sides.


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## msminnamouse

As you've read, some people are VERY lucky with their dogs and their shock fencing but not every dog and owner or even innocent bystandard fairs as well. As those of us and our dogs can attest to as we've been attacked by e-fence dogs.

Do I take this personally? Heck yes. My dog was attacked. My brother was also almost attacked another time by yet another invisible fence dog. He had to kick it in the face to protect himself AND again, my dog, who was with him. He loves animals and imagine how he must have felt having to defend them like that? Good thing at least that was all it took. My neighbors bought from the "BEST" company with the whole training bit and all that. Did it keep their dogs in? No. Did it keep their dogs from becoming dog aggressive? No. Did it keep their dog from attacking Ginger? No. 

Worse still, I can still remember the screaming as their new puppy was being trained to the fence. Don't tell me you tried the shock on yourself and you know exactly how it feels for your dog. You're not your dog. What may hurt them may not hurt you. Heck, what may not hurt you might hurt me. And shock doesn't have to hurt. It can cause enough discomfort without pain to be sufficiently aversive to keep the dog from wanting to cross the line most of the time. If it was so pleasant and the dog didn't care so much about it, then it wouldn't work at all, would it?

Some dogs will be sufficiently cowed by the beep and/or the shock and some dogs will be lucky enough not to become dog or stranger aggressive, and not to fall victim to intruders, both of the animal variety and human variety. Even if the fence DOES succeed in keeping your dog in all the time, there is NOTHING to keep others out.

The collar malfunctioning and being turned on constantly is NOT a misnomer and DOES happen, despite how much some people would like to claim otherwise. The collar is able to shock. Electronic devices are not faultless. Wires can shift or any number of things can happen to illicit a shock. Therefor, the collar can shock endlessly until the batteries give out or the owner takes it off. 

And just because one person's dogs didn't become dog or stranger aggressive doesn't mean that it's universally a non-issue with every single dog subject to an invisible fence. You know where Invisible Fence finds their "trainers"? Craigslist. I keep seeing their ads. Where else are they finding these top notch trainers, I wonder? Where else are they placing these discriminating hire ads? What makes their trainers and thus their training abilities so excellent and these systems fail proof if you have the right training from the beginning? 

It's a pretty big gamble. Are you willing to take that gamble with your dogs, Marcoislandmom? Only you can answer this for you and your dogs. 

If you want articles, including cited studies, I've got loads. Just ask.


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## Jdcollins

You're generalizations are Wrong... Sorry but they are... Puppies do not scream during training because there is zero shock during training... Zero.... It's only a beep audible to both the dog and the trainer.... If you know someone who's puppy was screaming during training then I question the trainer and the owner Bc I would never allow that to happen to my dog. as far as break outs... Well that's the owners fault and they should be held accountable. Like I said before... If my dogs were running thru it or running into it and getting shocked all the time I wouldn't have it... It's case by case.... I live in a neighborhood of about 500 homes and the vast majority who have dogs and live on the golf course chose invisible fence and I only know of one person who it didnt work for.. 

I did touch it and I do know what it feels like.. and that was a ridiculous comment. 

A responsible and good trainer would never shock a dog to screams.... in fact they look for very subtle reactions like a shake as if they are shaking off water during a bath.... The biggest part is teaching them the boundaries and training training training...

I hate when people knock and are nasty about something they don't know. I love my dogs with every fiber of my being. They are loved and spoiled as much as I can afford. I would never do anything that would compromise their quality of life... I would take zero satisfaction in them being shocked on a daily basis.... I don't have a fence out of laziness.... We walk 2-4 miles almost everyday but I wanted them to be able to enjoy the yard off leash and not have them chase a deer or run in the street unexpectedly. As I said before we are not allowed a fence.

Again if someone's dogs are breaking out or confused and shocking themselves or screaming and for pete sake if they are breaking out and attacking people then geez... No brainer.... it's the trainer and especially the owners fault ...plain and simple.... I haven't experienced that and I would never allow that to happen with or to my dogs.... 

Quite frankly for someone to pass judgement on me or my dogs situation sight unseen and without knowing me is close minded.....or just likes to find things to argue about on forums... Either way It doesn't offend me and actually kinda makes me laugh

And for anyone considering an invisible fence I am not encouraging you one way or the other..... I say do your homework.... Know your dog... Understand the process .... Interview the trainer And never EVER accept someone making your dog scream with pain EVER! 


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## julietcr1

*jdcollins* : Just keep an eye on them if they sit or lay down close to the invisible fence for long period of time. It took my lab-husky about 2.5 years to figure out how to "kill" the batteries. She is the smartest dog I ever lived with but I have a spoo now and I think he could figure it out to! 

She is getting older and rarelly tries to escape but I miss the invisible fence because it did stop her. If she would not have found the trick I would probably still use it on her. I think we are lucky to have all those alternatives.


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## Abbe gails Mom

Mr, Collins. I dislike taking sides, however this time im going to step in , and let you know you dont know what your talking about when you say, that pupies do not scream , during training. The hell they dont. I was there . (people dpwn the street got one of the inv. fences) This little thing , screamed, cried, wet all over its self, The police, came out, and they removed the animal. The fence was taken down, People did get there dog back , so what might be the right move for one, wont be the same for the other. You called her comment - Rediculous, Well, you made some very REDICULOUS ,comments your self. and if she is closed minded, your the 1st in line for the title, so do have a good laugh, and try to understand , that everone has a opinion, its like having a a--, everyone has one.Now I know, you just cant wate to come back at me, thats why I Hate trying to talk to people like you, you just never know when to hush. There ,thats my opinion !


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## Jdcollins

Julietcr.... That is funny! .... Mine don't every longer on the perimeter but that's funny that he figured that out


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## Jdcollins

I will repeat!!! If you are dense enough to allow someone to let your puppy scream in pain then shame on you!!!! 

And FYI my trainer was NOT the trainer from the fence company! 


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## Jdcollins

Wow you should really re read and re read and re read


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## Jdcollins

Julietcr..... damn autocorrect ... They don't linger around the perimeter


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## Jdcollins

Abbe gails Mom said:


> Mr, Collins. I dislike taking sides, however this time im going to step in , and let you know you dont know what your talking about when you say, that pupies do not scream , during training. The hell they dont. I was there . (people dpwn the street got one of the inv. fences) This little thing , screamed, cried, wet all over its self, The police, came out, and they removed the animal. The fence was taken down, People did get there dog back , so what might be the right move for one, wont be the same for the other. You called her comment - Rediculous, Well, you made some very REDICULOUS ,comments your self. and if she is closed minded, your the 1st in line for the title, so do have a good laugh, and try to understand , that everone has a opinion, its like having a a--, everyone has one.Now I know, you just cant wate to come back at me, thats why I Hate trying to talk to people like you, you just never know when to hush. There ,thats my opinion !


Sorry but whoever did that to a dog is an idiot 

Amazingly close minded to even suggest that that ridiculousness is what people put their dogs thru just to have a fence.... That person should not be a dog owner ... 


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## Jdcollins

Abbé Gail's mom .... U hate talking to ppl like me that don't know when to hush.... I see.... So someone is asking about an invisible fence... I give my opinion which if u actually went back and read all my posts never said it was for everyone and repeated over and over that if someone was hurting a dog and being an irresponsible owner they should not have one (fence) or a dog for that matter....I even said that if I had a choice I would have chosen a conventional fence but I dont... Hmm ... How very very close minded of me?... I receive a reply that specifically attacks me and u want me to hush? Umm I don't think so

My "case" is not "one good" case... The ones you two are citing are the exception.... I can absolutely ride my bike around my neighborhood and video all the dogs on invisible fences.... Nobody has angry crazy scared dogs getting shocked all the time.... 

Just On my street alone there are 7 so yes I have seen more than just my dogs within an invisible fence.... not just 1 neighbor who was apparently holding their puppy to a fence and screaming so long for the cops to come out .... That's just plain outrageous stupidity







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## msminnamouse

You are not simply "giving your case". You're resorting to ad-hominem insults and cursing. It pretty much devalues anything you could possibly have to add to this conversation as, in my opinion, it bears poorly on your character and decredits what you think you may have witnessed. Especially as what you say doesn't constitute reality. 

1. We've got two people now who were witness to two separate puppies screaming during their electric fence training. People putting electric shock to dogs which could, in many people's opinions and many a rescue, judge you unfit to own a dog. This is opinion, I'm not stating mine, merely that you say making a puppy scream makes someone unfit to own a dog and the same could be leveled back at you. 

2. Dogs are associative learners and can easily associate the shock with what they're near or looking at, including other dogs and people in the distance and nearby.

3. Animal control across the county would beg to differ with you that electric fences keep many dogs in being that they find so many with their collars still on.

4. It's not just two people who nay-said electric fencing.

5. You presume much to decide for your dog(s) that how you experience something is exactly the same for your dog. 

If the OP or anyone else wants my sources, they're free to PM me. There are plenty. I'm pretty much down with this thread and back and forth with you. You very much love your fence, we know. It's up to everyone to decide what they feel their dogs should be subject to or not, as according to the law.

The information has been presented, and I have more upon private message, and now the decision is in the hands of the beholder. But maybe some more insults and cursing will alter some opinions more in your favor?


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## msminnamouse

On second thought, I'll just link the sources here. We're big girls and big boys here. Anyone can skip over this particular thread if not interested.

I'll stick mostly right on topic and omit links regarding solely training and not used as boundaries minus a couple. Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

Say No to Shock Collars
Articles: Why I REALLY Hate Electronic Shock (Invisible) Fences by Pamela Dennison at Positive Motivation Dog Training!
Invisible fencing doesn't protect dogs | Gail Fisher, All Dogs Gym & Inn | Dog, His, I
Dog killed by shock fencing DDB: Managing Your Stress: No Chained Dogs!
Invisible Fences: Not a Recommended Solution
Courteous Canine: The Visible Dangers of Invisible Fencing!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zuomxdkngohkovo/WhenIsAFenceNotAFence.pdf
The Ethics of Shock-Collar Containment Fences for Dogs and Cats | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
Victoria Stilwell: Say "no" to electronic fencing - New York small dogs | Examiner.com
http://www.dogexpert.com/Bio/Electronic fences.pdf
Not painful, right? How to Beat Pain - Shock collar excerpt - YouTube
Explaining better than I how dogs are associative learners: What are the Implications of Using Training Techniques Which Induce Fear or Pain in Dogs?


I think that's enough for a public posting but can dig up yet many more if PMed for them.


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## Jdcollins

msminnamouse

sorry u think my "language" when referring to a person who is letting their puppy scream is harsh.

Whether my language makes me credible to you or not means nothing to me bc I have seen you argue repeatedly on this forum with others so your argument also doesn't mean much to me.

You are seriously missing my point that I have agreed that any training that causes a puppy to scream is WRONG .... Should i say it again? ... any training that causes a puppy to scream is wrong!!!!! how many times have i said it now ???? so all I can deduce is that u want to argue just as you have with many others....I repeat YET AGAIN.... I have witnessed with my own two eyes many times over in my own neighborhood ...friends and neighbors with my same experience.... I am sorry if that upsets u but its the truth..... There are not a bunch of hard ass mean humans that live here that thrive on making puppies scream.... omg .... How many times to I have to agree that if someone's dog is screaming or breaking through or confused and getting shocked repeatedly or attacking or any of the other things you said THEN IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THAT PERSON OR THEIR DOG! You are fighting with yourself!!!! I haven't disagreed EXCEPT to say that I have seen many "cases" or whatever u want to call them myself .... daily for that matter bc i know these people and out of all the ones I PERSONALLY know of ONLY ONE didnt work out..... He was a chihuahua named taco...he did not scream or get aggressive or attack.... He just would walk right through it like it wasn't there and run off.... It just didnt work for him so the company refunded their money. 

It IS a good alternative for many people.... it is NOT FOR EVERYONE! No different than all the other training tools out there.... Some people shouldn't use them PERIOD. 

DONE!





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## Jdcollins

You are preaching to the choir.. I do research for a living....real research studies... Not opinions.... people's opinions are not research.... 

Wow are you reading my posts ? Did I say a shock "couldn't hurt" no I did not .... I said if you have turned the shock up to a level of screaming pain THAT IS WRONG!!!! These collars are not one size fits all there are many levels of correction from none to high..... If u turn it up to the point that a dog is screaming .... THAT IS WRONG!!!!! 

unbelievable


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## msminnamouse

There are also plenty of case studies, of which I'll post tomorrow since I'm not feeling well so I guess I'll start with your posts today and save the studies for tomorrow.



> I hate when people knock and are nasty about something they don't know.


That's a presumptive claim. You know nothing about me or the others on this forum and their degree of knowledge about shock fencing. Those of us who were attacked or have had our dogs attacked by dogs running through their shock fencing know that they're unreliable.

I never knock anything without thoroughly understanding and educating myself on it first. This particular topic is about shock fencing but the same principals apply. Although it sounds like you already did, you can search via my username for my lengthy, sourced posts about shock collars. I could pretty much write a dissertation with all my research and knowledge on shock collars and shock fencing. It is all my research and knowledge which allows me to make the informed decision not to shock my dogs and not to recommend shocking dogs to training clients and adopters. I have also had to train my fair share of dogs who became aggressive due to their shock fencing. Take away the shock and it's magical how benign strangers in the distance can become with some CC/DS.



> Puppies do not scream during training because there is zero shock during training


That may have been the case with your very specific trainer, but that is most frequently not the case, as has already been discussed. A puppy screaming is a puppy screaming.



> A responsible and good trainer would never shock a dog to screams.... in fact they look for very subtle reactions like a shake as if they are shaking off water during a bath


A _responsible_ and _good_ trainer would never cause enough undue stress to a dog to make them enact a stress signal, such as shaking off, which by the way, is not subtle. That is not a _responsible_ or _good_ goal. 



> I love my dogs with every fiber of my being. They are loved and spoiled as much as I can afford.


I would hate to see how you'd treat a dog you don't like then. I love my dogs too. Therefore, I wouldn't condone applying an electric shocking device to them.



> We walk 2-4 miles almost everyday but I wanted them to be able to enjoy the yard off leash and not have them chase a deer or run in the street unexpectedly. As I said before we are not allowed a fence.


That's nice. A shock, or being taught shockless boundaries, or even that evil tie out line? Choices, choices. Personally, as my pet's guardian, I would choose the latter two. My dogs remain in my unfenced front yard no matter what may beckon to them.



> I haven't experienced that and I would never allow that to happen with or to my dogs....


Quite easy for you to say but it's another thing to be there to supervise and know about it. Most people don't want to fight with their neighbors. Maybe you're one of the very rare few who supervise them out in the yard, in which case, the shock is superflous and you might as well have them on a long line or teach them a dynamite recall and shockless boundaries.



> Quite frankly for someone to pass judgement on me or my dogs situation sight unseen and without knowing me is close minded.....or just likes to find things to argue about on forums... Either way It doesn't offend me and actually kinda makes me laugh


You might find shocking dogs funny. I asure you, plenty don't share your sense of humor. And wanting no part of electric shock for our dogs doesn't make us close minded, only more mindful of how we treat those at our mercy.



> That person should not be a dog owner ...


We also already discussed what constitutes who should be allowed to own dogs in other people's opinions, previously.

"Nobody has angry crazy scared dogs getting shocked all the time.... "

Yes, after a certain amount of time, dogs learn to deal with the hand they've been dealt. You could say the same about anything that involves desensitization. But I wonder, how well do you know how to read body language of dogs? And why would they be bike aggressive unless a bike happened to chance by most times that they were shocked?



> sorry u think my "language" when referring to a person who is letting their puppy scream is harsh.


No, not just regarding a person letting their puppy scream. You used it towards anyone not siding with your view.

You talking about wanting to see evidence, but all you have is your neighborhood of shock fencing dogs to reference. No videos either, no testimonials, nothing. Just your word. You say I lack any real evidence and while I'm going to post studies tomorrow, world renowned domestic dog behavior experts' testimonials does stand for something. I'd like to see your hard evidence, please.



> If u turn it up to the point that a dog is screaming .... THAT IS WRONG!!!!!


Yet it is so right to shock the dogs that you claim to love? There's a great gap in your logic.


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## Jdcollins

msminnamouse said:


> There are also plenty of case studies, of which I'll post tomorrow since I'm not feeling well so I guess I'll start with your posts today and save the studies for tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a presumptive claim. You know nothing about me or the others on this forum and their degree of knowledge about shock fencing. Those of us who were attacked or have had our dogs attacked by dogs running through their shock fencing know that they're unreliable.
> 
> I never knock anything without thoroughly understanding and educating myself on it first. This particular topic is about shock fencing but the same principals apply. Although it sounds like you already did, you can search via my username for my lengthy, sourced posts about shock collars. I could pretty much write a dissertation with all my research and knowledge on shock collars and shock fencing. It is all my research and knowledge which allows me to make the informed decision not to shock my dogs and not to recommend shocking dogs to training clients and adopters. I have also had to train my fair share of dogs who became aggressive due to their shock fencing. Take away the shock and it's magical how benign strangers in the distance can become with some CC/DS.
> 
> 
> 
> That may have been the case with your very specific trainer, but that is most frequently not the case, as has already been discussed. A puppy screaming is a puppy screaming.
> 
> 
> 
> A _responsible_ and _good_ trainer would never cause enough undue stress to a dog to make them enact a stress signal, such as shaking off, which by the way, is not subtle. That is not a _responsible_ or _good_ goal.
> 
> 
> 
> I would hate to see how you'd treat a dog you don't like then. I love my dogs too. Therefore, I wouldn't condone applying an electric shocking device to them.
> 
> 
> 
> That's nice. A shock, or being taught shockless boundaries, or even that evil tie out line? Choices, choices. Personally, as my pet's guardian, I would choose the latter two. My dogs remain in my unfenced front yard no matter what may beckon to them.
> 
> 
> 
> Quite easy for you to say but it's another thing to be there to supervise and know about it. Most people don't want to fight with their neighbors. Maybe you're one of the very rare few who supervise them out in the yard, in which case, the shock is superflous and you might as well have them on a long line or teach them a dynamite recall and shockless boundaries.
> 
> 
> 
> You might find shocking dogs funny. I asure you, plenty don't share your sense of humor. And wanting no part of electric shock for our dogs doesn't make us close minded, only more mindful of how we treat those at our mercy.
> 
> 
> 
> We also already discussed what constitutes who should be allowed to own dogs in other people's opinions, previously.
> 
> "Nobody has angry crazy scared dogs getting shocked all the time.... "
> 
> Yes, after a certain amount of time, dogs learn to deal with the hand they've been dealt. You could say the same about anything that involves desensitization. But I wonder, how well do you know how to read body language of dogs? And why would they be bike aggressive unless a bike happened to chance by most times that they were shocked?
> 
> 
> 
> No, not just regarding a person letting their puppy scream. You used it towards anyone not siding with your view.
> 
> You talking about wanting to see evidence, but all you have is your neighborhood of shock fencing dogs to reference. No videos either, no testimonials, nothing. Just your word. You say I lack any real evidence and while I'm going to post studies tomorrow, world renowned domestic dog behavior experts' testimonials does stand for something. I'd like to see your hard evidence, please.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it is so right to shock the dogs that you claim to love? There's a great gap in your logic.


 Whether u want to or not you are still agreeing with me ... And beyond that u are making things up just to be argumentative ... Have fun with that.. 

Your comment about how I treat my dogs is At Best a very childish "my daddy is better then your daddy" type comment .... Very Telling.... I feel sorry for u and for your dogs for having to live with such an angry individual.


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## MaryLynn

We are here to answers questions, and to give advice. We are not here to shame anyone, or to lead any campaigns against anyone. I understand having conviction, and you can demonstrate it by stating your point. 

The best you can do is put forth your opinion, experience, and to call upon any credible sources that you may have and hope that after an inquirer reads all the responses that your views resonate with theirs and that they choose to make the same choice.


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## Angl

In our neighborhood HOA we have told owners to watch their pets even when out with the invisible fence. The charging dogs were scaring the bejeezus out of pedestrians. Meanwhile, we got Max and have had the most trouble finding a fence contractor to put a fence in. Amazing how no one will ever show up...
Anyway, we use the tie out method with us watching from window. Lots of trips to dog park and lots of walks. My biggest regret is that I want another Spoo one day and the tie out won't work. 
Have enjoyed this topic, my husband and I have discussed this but sort of figured that Spoos were too sensitive for invisible fences.


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## Pluto

msminnamouse said:


> Yet it is so right to shock the dogs that you claim to love? There's a great gap in your logic.


I think that this is what it really comes down to for many people. And people get very passionate about it.

Personally I do not have a problem shocking a dog that I love if it has a clear and distinct goal and it works. It may be a shortcut, it may not work for all dogs – but positive reinforcement it not enough for all dogs either.

I also have no problem having a vet anesthetize my dog, slit her open, and completely remove her uterus and ovaries - because it has a clear and distinct goal and it works. I truly feel that my dog would be healthier and cause her less pain if I committed to keeping her intact and committed to keeping her confined when in season. But I am too lazy to do that. I don’t want to have to avoid parks and public places when she is in season, watch her every second when I open to back door to ensure that a loose male doesn’t get into our fenced yard, reschedule vacations because she can’t be kenneled, etc.

So if a shock collar is what it takes to stop excessive barking, provide correction as to boundaries or keeping a dog in a yard, or get a dogs attention in the field, then I do not think that the mere use of a negative reinforcement method is enough to make a person a bad dog owner- there are far worse things in this world then a difference in training styles. 

And I see no gap in logic in using a negative reinforcement method – including shocking- when used appropriately to keep a dog safe, be it from running loose or homelessness and euthanasia due to behavioral problems. It has everything to do with ensuring a dog a good future and nothing to do with ”not loving them.”


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## Ms Stella

Marcoislandmom said:


> Can I hear what you have experienced using the Invisible Fence? I have a 10 mo old puppy. Thanks.


I see this thread became nasty like so many other threads here...so I didnt read on but thought Id put my experience with invisible fence. Before I had my poodles I had a doberman. We bought a house in an area that didnt allow fences...so most everyone had invisible fences. We got one too..

It did work but for me I wouldnt do it again..The training period was stressful on my doberman. It only took a couple of days but he was very unsure of where was ok to go in the yard! We had the trainer come and work with us and we went thru all the steps..but the dog would only get off the deck and potty about 2 feet away from the deck..he got better over time as we had the house with that fence for several years..I ended up NOT having the shock on but just the warning beep in case et every malfunctioned..and that is all it took for him to turn around..but we also never left him outside unattended for more than a few minutes..he, like my poodles, preferred to be with his people 

Ours was only in my back yard so he was not allowed in the front where the side walks were and cars were..we never had problems with him charging anyone...but I have been concerned about other dogs breaking thru their fences as they do come running fast like they will run thru the invisible fence..fortunately Ive not had a dog run thru one and bother us.

The last problem with the invisible fence is that other dogs, children, animals all can get into your yard..we never had any issues but I always worried..I have a friend with a boxer and great dane..he has invisible fence in the back yard to contain the dogs in one area to go potty as he has little kids and didnt want the dogs to potty in the childrens play area..

bottom line for me I wouldnt do it again..but it works for some. 

And btw we ALL put the collar on our necks and administered a shock...me, my dh and my daughter..as we were worried it would cause undo pain..it was like a jolt..but not painful at all. There are different settings one can use too.


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## murphys

My opinion. To each his own. In my neighborhood almost everyone with a dog has an invisible fence. I say almost everyone because I installed a fence in part of my yard. I prefer a physical fence not because of the shock, because that can be adjusted. For me, it is because I know of at least 2 dogs that have gotten out of their yards with an invisible fence, both accidentally. I also like the idea that noone, man or beast, can get into where Fritz and occassionally Spike are playing easily or without going through the gate. 

My aunt has an invisible fence for her jack russell terrier and it works for her.


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## HerdingStdPoodle

*Invisible Fence*

Hi Everyone;

I just want to chime in and tell you guys that I find this post fascinating. I live on a ranch, where I call it a "gated community" because I keep my road gate closed pretty much 24/7 because of cattle. We have barbed wire fences and steel fences and electrobraid fences. So here's my question: aren't there any other options for fences? In rural areas I have seen cables running from tree to tree and hedges and chained-link fences. Seriously, there has to be numerous options for all types of people and dogs and conditions! HerdingStdPoodle


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## Pluto

Herdingstandardpoodles, I think that fences are much more common in the west in general. In my area most gated communities with Home Owners Associations (HOA) and strict regulations still allow for some type of fencing. The type, style and location is highly regulated, but it is typical for people to have fenced backyard and the communities and HOA restrictions have been build around what sells “here”. But in many areas were fenced yards are less common, these regulations restrict the installation of_ any_ type of fencing in front or backyards. So while there are hundreds of options for useful and/or decorative fencing it doesn’t do you any good if you are not permitted to install them on your property.


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## Pluto

I do think it's interesting that dogs charging pedestrians/bikes/etc is assumed to be an invisible/electric fencing issue. I live in an urban area were many people have physical fencing in the front yard, right up to the narrow sidewalk. The vast majority of the dogs do charge the fences, barking and running up and down when someone walks by. "I" would not extend my dogs range to the public street. In the nicer areas of our town, while legally allowed, people do not fence their front yards to the sidewalk. The neighborhoods are much more pleasant and walkable. I would think that the solution with an invisible fence would be the same and that it would be courteous to not extend the range to the public walk. It is bad enough in my actual neighborhood that I will drive to a much nicer area about a mile away and walk there because I'm tired of having a barking dog running up and down (or lunging and snarling), 6" away as I'm on the public walk. A friend of mine actually had a dog reach through the fence and bite his dog on the public sidewalk.


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## Chagall's mom

Pluto said:


> I do think it's interesting that dogs charging pedestrians/bikes/etc is assumed to be an invisible/electric fencing issue.


I think the issue is one of feeling more assured when a physical fence separates pedestrians from charging dogs. Which is not to say dogs behind hard fences don't charge.:nod: 



> A friend of mine actually had a dog reach through the fence and bite his dog on the public sidewalk.


The center fielder on my high school softball team once backed into the split rail fence of the adjacent horse pasture and a horse bit her.:hurt: It's astonishing how unusual, random things happen.


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## HerdingStdPoodle

*Fencing Options*

Thank you so much for your help in understanding about fencing issues. I love HGTV and they have so many beautiful "barrier" [fence] options. Also I have traveled to New Jersey and Tennessee and Kentucky and upstate New York and have witnessed their beautiful equestrian farms. That experience gave me the idea for fencing for my Louie and the many puppies that I had before him! It was so incredibly easy to create beautiful [at least I thought so] fencing with horse panels and make a huge yard for my Louie.

I just really appreciated this post because I have never lived where I had to come up with a creative solution to keep my dog in a yard without a fence. I should have thought about this before, because I watch "Selling New York" on HGTV! 
HerdingStdPoodle


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## murphys

Another option and one we used until the fence was put up. Our fenced in garden is 100 feet from the house (we have deer we chose not to share our garden with). We ran a line from the house to the cemented fence post. We then cantilevered a 30 feet lead onto the line. We would connect Fritz to the lead and off he went. The downside of this option is that you need to pay attention to where the dog is or you may end up tangled in the line and on the ground. Also you need to bear in mind what else is in your yard that the puppy can get tangled in. It was a good short term solution for us.

Edited: I just looked and you weren't looking for other options. Opps. On the other hand, if you are waiting on an invisible fence, this is an option while you wait for it to be installed.


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## HerdingStdPoodle

*Fencing Options*

The upside of not having any fence whatsoever is lots and lots of exercise! Think of all of those Holiday pounds shed exercising beautiful Poodles. Years ago when I lived in an apartment, I used to put on the leash and exercise my dog regularly. Most of the time, I really enjoyed it! Before my morning coffee? Not! HerdingStdPoodle


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## Bunny

Thanks for all these observations. Obviously, this is a topic feel passionately about! I started another thread about this, not knowing one had already been started (sorry for the clutter!). 

It's definitely a case of YMMV. There are lots of invisible fences in my neighborhood (front yards, at least, which is what I can observe) and no dog has ever charged through, and we walk in front of every yard in the 'hood every day. We don't have sidewalks.

I had an IF put in yesterday, so the issue isn't whether to, but looking for training tips/pitfalls. This is the solution that will work for us. I'd definitely never allow my dog to scream in pain, and we're at the "noise-only" stage right now anyway.


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## Oklahoma

We used an invisible fence with a standard poodle we fostered a couple years back. He was smart enough to figure out that if he crawled very, very slowly (like moving an inch in 10 minutes), he could cross without a shock. I sat and watched him do it because I needed to know if the fence was going to work - he was never left unattended. 

After he figured that out, he did it every time. It became a game. Also, he figured out that on rainy days, the fence didn't work very well and would just jump through the perimeter.

I'd say, with monitored usage, the fence is better than nothing but I'd never leave a dog unattended outdoors with one.


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## ar22dp

Im surprised that electrocuting dogs are allowed in the US, its prohibited by law in Sweden. People who use it here are reported to the police and sentenced for animal cruelty. The sales of electroshock equipment is also banned. If convicted you can be sentenced to 2years imprissonment and be banned from keeping animals.

Swedish law also allows for a citizens arrest to be made on anyone using electric trainingequipment on a dog.

Me and my whife has always had discipline high on the agenda with our spoo. But we have choosen to accomplish that with positive reinforcement instead. By pampering him with love and attention and having him sleeping in our bed, aswell as daily training with no punishments(only fun), he now looks up to us as the alpha.


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## Lene

About 40 years ago, I was just married, and we got out first dog, a Karellian beardog X... He was 6 months old, and was biting the kids of the previous owner... He's name was Zenta... We were on an unfenced property.. I taught Zenta with positive reinforcement, not to cross the barrier, I had shown him... He never did... untill..

.... we moved. I had no idea that dogs didn't generalize, and thought that he would automatically know, not to go out on the road... He broke his back, and had to be put down... He was only 6 years old... I still feel guilty...

My dad wanted to teach me how to train dogs (that was before I taught Zenta myself), and I didn't like his methods... But maybe those old methods are not far from the 'shock' methods people use these days???

Which makes me think whether shocking dogs is better than a firm correction? The only difference I can see is, that the shock can't be related back to the handler... ????


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## ar22dp

No, its not OK(thats why its illegal in my country). Its just as with children, spanking them is illegal aswell and it doesnt leed to anything good doing it(besides getting in to trouble with the law and social services).

There are several other issues with having a dog in an unfenced yard, even if you have an "invisable fence" collar.

1. invisable fence doesnt keep children out, a child cam wonder of into your yard and be bit by the dogs.
2. it doesnt keep other dogs out, a "fighting dog"(amstaff/pitbull) can get to your dog
3. your dog can be stolen(this does actually happen)/kidnapped.


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## all that jazz

I think this is an individual decision based on a lot of variables. I have two minipoos and an invisible fence. I live in a suburban community. The fence has been an asset to the dogs and to me. I paid for one from a reputable company. I spent the time to train the dogs, it didn't take long but I had the flags up for about a month, and then little by little removed them. Each dog was jolted/shocked a total of two times in two years and that was at the beginning. The jolt was low and it is adjusted due to the size of the dog. Don't think the jolt makes them jump in the air and scream it is not like that, nothing like that- if it is done correctly. I have a battery plan so every three months I get new batteries so I don't take the risk of the batteries wearing down. My dogs can fully enjoy the yard. I have a figure eight set up so they can't go in the front unless I take them through the house. I have large picture windows at the back of my house so I can watch them. They run and run and monitor the property and chase little critters. They LOVE their yard and are not afraid of their yard. I never leave them in the front without watching them through the window or being out with them. You can buy a fence and set it up yourself and I suspect that way would be fraught with a lot more errors. As with everything in life there is not one answer but it depends on multiple variables.


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## Pluto

ar22dp said:


> No, its not OK(thats why its illegal in my country).


No, this is a gross generalization. Just because your country has determined that something is not appropriate for your public does not make it wrong or not OK. Different countries have operate in variouse fashions. My country encourages neutering of pets to prevent unwanted pregnancies and behavioral problems. Norway prohibits preventative neutering of dogs and requires an appeal due to behavior or medical issues in order for a vet to neuter a dog. 

Many countries ban bully breeds, others do not. Many countries ban guns, others do not. Many countries ban docking of tails, others do not. I think that it is important to keep an individuals opinions in perspective, which can be difficult without a full knowledge of their culture. Which I'm not sure we can really have over the internet, but it's nice to attempt to keep an open mind.


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## ar22dp

It is not a good idea to keep an open mind when it comes to animal cruelty. Culture is not a factor when it comes to animal cruelty, a dog feels pain and terror the same way no mather where in the world it is. It is illegal in some countrys, but its amoral everywhere.


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