# Training Advice For Grumpy Dog



## patticake (Apr 17, 2017)

I have a problem with my 1 year old Toy poodle being grumpy & growling .
This happens if my hand touches her leg or foot when i am holding her, 
She will growl at me , when brushing, when i move her on the lounge when we are watching TV, 
She has not bitten yet, but i feel she will if i am not careful 
When she is asleep on her own rug , she will growl while sleeping sometimes.
I have done touch & treat for months , it is not working on her.:afraid::afraid:
Should i just accept she is a Vocal dog or are there Training Tips, 
I would like her to be calmer with me.

The rest of the time, she loves playing with toys together, & likes sitting on my lap , Vet said she is very healthy, she eats well.

Advice on training would be great, it's not much fun being wary of my own dog.:argh:


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Has your dog been carefully evaluated by the vet? Is there a medical reason for this? Sounds like she's in pain?


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I have a friend that has a grumpy dog and she actually is afraid of him, (a toy 7 pound). What has created that is she felt he was so cute she did not correct him, and he rules the roost. No one can stand the dog, due to this, no one can touch his top knot, ears, he will growl and snap. But not with me. He will want on my lap and I say ok, get up here but you better be nice, I touch his topknot, ears no problem. I baby sit him, and tell him to sit and stay, and no problem, and when I come in he runs to be and wants on my lap

A lot of that is not letting the dog know who is in charge, it is a case where she is for his pleasure not reverse. I told her to see if he had any health problems vet say NO, just spoiled


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Touch and treat !?!? If a dog is growling it is telling you very clearly it doesn't like what is happening, is afraid or is physically uncomfortable/in pain. I agree you should have your vet make sure there is nothing causing pain. Next thing is I would make sure your dog has its own safe space it can go to when tired or otherwise not wanting to be engaged with people. 

When your dog is well rested and you have time to play some games that will help the dog to understand the following: you are a benign leader, but the leader; you will keep her safe; you will respect her space when she is tired and that she should totally trust you you should see improvement in her behavior. I agree with glorybee that dogs need us to show leadership. If we don't they can become unsure of what the rules and boundaries are and they will try to define them on their own, often by pushing us and other dogs out of their way.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> Touch and treat !?!? If a dog is growling it is telling you very clearly it doesn't like what is happening, is afraid or is physically uncomfortable/in pain. I agree you should have your vet make sure there is nothing causing pain. Next thing is I would make sure your dog has its own safe space it can go to when tired or otherwise not wanting to be engaged with people.
> 
> When your dog is well rested and you have time to play some games that will help the dog to understand the following: you are a benign leader, but the leader; you will keep her safe; you will respect her space when she is tired and that she should totally trust you you should see improvement in her behavior. I agree with glorybee that dogs need us to show leadership. If we don't they can become unsure of what the rules and boundaries are and they will try to define them on their own, often by pushing us and other dogs out of their way.


This has been the problem with my friends dog, when I have him I have no problem with growling, or anything.

A good example of this dog, when in the car with the owner, in the back set up to the front set, on her lap a real pain. I have taken and pick him up from the groomer (having my 3 dogs in the back). I put him on the front set and say, twice Max, sit and stay. The dog just sits there and looks at me and never moves around, he is smart and really a good dog, just needs some direction. Lord knows I have tried to tell her, she says I can't understand why he acts the way he does with you, and not with me. What to they say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, so I gave up.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Skylar said:


> Has your dog been carefully evaluated by the vet? Is there a medical reason for this? Sounds like she's in pain?


I really agree with Skylar--sounds like she's in pain. I would get a thorough check-up before you take any behavioral measures.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

You mentioned the vet says she's healthy, which is good. And you say she likes to play with you and hang out on your lap. I'd still get a vet recheck just to make sure, but this sounds like an attitude issue.

Some dogs get the idea that they are in charge of the show. Showing teeth and growling gets them what they want. The rules need to change. If she's not in pain, she's being a dog bully. I don't like bullies, so we're going to fix that. 

You said she growls at you when you move her on the lounge.

Excuse me, who owns this lounge? Did the dog get a job, go to work, put up with a frustrating job, and that irritating co-worker you wish you could slap, and buy a lounge? No, you did. It's yours. The dog gets to be on the lounge when you give her permission and she gets her fluffy poodle butt off it when you say off, because it's yours. The lounge is your territory. Here's how you reclaim it.

It's time to change the rules at your house. Rule #1, don't move the dog. Rule #2 it's the dogs job to move when you say so. 

The training game is called, "off!" 

While the dog is on the lounge, show her that you have tiny pieces of chicken in your hand. Lure her off the lounge with the chicken by bringing it to her nose, and lowering it to the floor, and say, "Off!"
She jumps off the lounge and eats a piece of chicken while you laugh and cheer.
Encourage her to jump back on the lounge and repeat the game. 
On the fifth try, just say, "off," don't put the chicken by her nose, just drop it on the floor.

Now, this is crucial, when she lands on the floor, give her three pieces of chicken for staying on the floor. Not three at once. One, eat, two, eat, three, eat. While you laugh and cheer and act happy like she won a great prize.

Repeat this game again, repeat it and repeat it, so when you say OFF, VERY GOOD THINGS HAPPEN TO POODLES. And she learns it's her job to move when you say so because the lounge is yours. 

Give your dog a hers, though. A crate, a dog bed, a safe alone spot that you respect as hers. Call her away from her spot, but never remove her from it. That's her territory and she can own that space. 

Touch, treat, and growl is not working, so please stop. She doesn't like that game. The more you play, the worse it's going to get. Please take her back to the vet, though because it's not fair to assume an attitude problem when the dog is in pain. If it is an attitude problem, though, we'll help you adjust it using games and fun to build trust between you. So vet first, promise?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Excellent advice from Click-N-Treat. I too would start with a vet examination, focussing most particularly on the areas she tries to protect. I would then look for a properly qualified behaviourist to do a behavioural assessment - I think it would benefit both of you to have some help identifying triggers and developing a training plan. The very last thing you want to do is inadvertently push her into biting through miscommunication, and a professional who can observe the two of you together and help interprete. It could be that jumping or being lifted hurts; it could be that she is just very comfortable and has found a way of ensuring she is left undisturbed; it could be that grunty growly noises are just her way of communicating mild complaint - a professional can help you work out which it is, and how to improve things.

There is a good article on functional assessment here: https://www.eileenanddogs.com/2017/09/18/functional-behavioral-assessment-dog-training/


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Click-N-Treat has given you a brilliant game to play with her to help her understand who is in charge and who gives the orders. I will add another. Once you decide what thing will be her place to be safe and left to relax (crate, dog bed or other) send her to that place with the same reinforcement described for the OFF game. You can name the place however you want, but calling it PLACE works well. Now she will not only know that OFF means she has to move, but that PLACE will tell her to go there once she has gotten off the furniture. 

You also mentioned that she doesn't like being brushed. My spoos don't love love love grooming either so to be fair to them about it I only do it on a grooming table, not while we are relaxing by the TV. I would suggest having a dedicated grooming location even if you don't have a regular grooming table pick a spot that you only use for grooming her (my mom puts a towel on the end of her kitchen island for grooming her small mpoo). When you first start taking her to the grooming spot use the same treat reinforcement for her. At first don't do any grooming but put your hands on different parts of her body while she gets a treat. Then put the back of a brush or comb on those spots, a clipper not turned on on different parts of her body while she gets treats. Once she relaxes at the grooming spot because she is getting goodies start to fade the treats so you can actually start to brush her. You might only brush her tail (or one ear or top knot) and then stop at first, but gradually you will be able to do more and more of a comprehensive grooming. I have a big tub of freeze dried chicken liver treats near my grooming table. I still give each of my dogs treats during grooming and I definitely stop if I offer a treat and the dog doesn't eat it since they are telling me they've had it.

And again , yes, double check with a vet check that she is not in pain anywhere since all of the above is not fair if she's hurt.


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## patticake (Apr 17, 2017)

Thanks everyone, yes we had a vet check-up 4 days ago full body check , good as gold for the vet, he said read some training books.

I think it is an Attitude Problem , if she is busy eating i can hold her legs quite firmly or brush her well, so it is not pain,

She eats so fast i don't have long to work on her.

with the lounge she only gets on when i am sitting there, when i get off she follows me around the house, she growls if i move my legs or shift over.

Why would she growl in her sleep , is it just like doggy talking.

This is my first inside dog , we had outside dogs when i was a kid.

Thanks for the help i have too try different things for her :blowkiss:


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

patticake said:


> Thanks everyone, yes we had a vet check-up 4 days ago full body check , good as gold for the vet, he said read some training books.
> 
> I think it is an Attitude Problem , if she is busy eating i can hold her legs quite firmly or brush her well, so it is not pain,
> 
> ...


Your dog doesn't respect you. The good news is this can be easily fixed. You've had great advice so far.

Don't work on her while she is eating. Don't talk to her, don't disturb her. It will only make her want eat faster, and eventually maybe even resource guard her food and for sure it makes her resent you. Dogs need to be able to eat in oeace, just like any living creature. It's a fundemental need.

The day you decide you're not scared of this tiny little thing is the day she will stop.


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## patticake (Apr 17, 2017)

*Very sad*

I'm very sad she does not respect me ,
Do you think i should give her to someone who knows more about dogs,

I will try only hand feeding her meals, then she might respect me.

I don't want to get bitten, i have to move her head with my arm on her neck.

She is sleeping on my lap as i type this.:angel:


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Don't give up! Follow the very experienced suggestions. I'm sure you will see improvement.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Are you trying to groom her while she is eating a meal? If so, let her eat in peace please. Dechi is right that if you make meals contentious you will create more problems than already exist. Work on adjusting her attitude and helping her to understand that she is not the boss but don't do it while she is eating her meals. I do train in advance of meal time, but once the food bowls go down and I release them to eat I generally let them have meal time to themselves.

Don't be sad and don't think you are inadequate about this. Take charge of the situation with the understanding that you can make things better with some patience and persistence. If you think you need help from a trainer, go on the APDT website and find yourself a good person to help you (preferably a person who is CPDT-KA certified).


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

patticake said:


> I'm very sad she does not respect me ,
> Do you think i should give her to someone who knows more about dogs,
> 
> I will try only hand feeding her meals, then she might respect me.
> ...


You can learn how to handle her, don't give up ! She knows you fear her bite and that is why she is bossing you around. Dogs are smart. She will naturally want to get away with as much as she can. It's your job to let her know what is acceptable or not. Just like you would if it was a child. If a child was screaming at you, you wouldn't back down, would you ? Same thing with a dog.

As Lily said, find a behavioral trainer to show you how to be assertive around her. I think 1 or 2 sessions and you'll already have made very good progress. It's not hard, you just have to know how to do it.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

You can help your dog, you can do this, I promise. Find a trainer and ask your vet to recommend one. 

In the meantime, binge watch "It's Me or the Dog." You can download episodes on iTunes and Amazon. You'll learn a lot about positive reinforcement, using treats to change behavior, and more.


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## patticake (Apr 17, 2017)

I have been brushing her while she is busy eating, i thought it would distract her 
from what i was doing.
I will stop that , is it a good idea to hand feed her meals .

How do you correct a dog when they do things you don't want,
I have seen Ceasar Milan be quite rough with dogs.

Thanks Click-N- Treat, I will look at the Me or the dog videos .


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

You certainly don't need to rehome her, but I do think you need a behavioural trainer, to help you rebuild your relationship with your dog and your confidence handling her. Be careful about who you choose - it is an unregulated field and anyone can call themselves a trainer, including those who may easily make the behaviour worse. In the meantime let her eat in peace, but perhaps try smearing something good on the fridge door or some other convenient surface when you want to groom her. Something interesting enough to keep her distracted, but not her meal.

I am little uneasy about talk of respect, etc, as it can sometimes lead to harsh methods like those used by Milan, which can make behavioural issues worse. At the same time letting her boss you around is like letting a toddler rule the household, and not good for either of you. Try the On/Off game Click-N-Treat suggested - play it for a few minutes several times a day for a week or two. I have found mine respond well to a Budge Over cue, too, taught in a similar way (interestingly one of the few times Poppy has growled at a human was when a friend of mine loomed over her where she was comfortably snoozing in a chair and snapped "Move!" at her. A polite "Poppy, budge over please" had her happily giving way, as she had been taught that and understood it!). But if you are at the point of being unhappy and worried enough to even consider rehoming then get professional help. You would not hesitate to take her to a professional for a physical problem, and this is equally if not more important.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

When your dog is eating a meal, leave her alone. Treats are between meal snacks used for training. Here is how you use treats to train. Get a piece of cooked boneless chicken and cut it into pieces the size of a pencil eraser. When your dog does something you like, you pay her with one pencil eraser sized treat. That's how you play the OFF game.

FJM is right that you need to find an experienced trainer who will work with you. But, we're here to cheer you on


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

patticake said:


> I have been brushing her while she is busy eating, i thought it would distract her
> from what i was doing.
> I will stop that , is it a good idea to hand feed her meals .
> 
> ...


You don't need to be harsh with your dog. No physical correction, no hitting.

You know when you talk to someone and they say they're going to do something but no matter what they say you know deep down they don't mean it ? That's how your dog perceives you. She knows that you don't mean it. When you're assertive, the dog senses it. t's just a way of being, it has nothing to do with correction.

Find someone to help you and progress will be made.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Please don't try to do the methodologies of any TV trainer on your own. We don't get to see the many outtakes where things didn't turn out right and we don't see the small steps needed to get to the end result. Positive methods trainers on TV like Victoria Stillwell can give you good ideas about tone of voice,and rewarding rather than luring, but to really fix up your relationship with your girl you need someone with experience and knowledge to guide you and help you to have the correct balance of demonstrated leadership and kind guidance. 

It is very hard to see or feel what you are doing right or wrong sometimes if you are on your own. I took a private obedience lesson this morning and we worked on a number of things for which my trainer's feedback was incredibly important. The last thing we worked on was right and left turns in heeling. I have been having problems with right turns and couldn't understand why on my own, but it was very obvious to Deb who reminded me not to look for the dog by turning my head over my left shoulder, but instead to turn my head to look into the turn to show him where we both had to go together. In other words even trainers sometimes need trainers.


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## patticake (Apr 17, 2017)

*I'm Feeling Better*

:dance2:

Thanks for all the great help, I know i can improve her behavior myself now.
I worked on the OFF game for the lounge with little bits of chicken, it was fun,
AND my girl LOVED it.
I will not be harsh with her , i do love her, i just need more training tips for me to achieve a great relationship, for her & me.

I would like a step by step list of how my day should be with her, i am home all day, 
What other training would you suggest i do with her.
I really love having lots of fun together , do you always give treats forever for everything, or will she behave nicely in the future with no treats.

Thanks so much for taking the time & helping me sort this problem out.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Once you have made a good start with teaching your girl what constitutes polite behavior and how to have fun together you want to put the treats on a random reinforcement schedule so that she is always eager to try to get a treat since she isn't sure if one is always coming. A random reinforcement schedule works like this: 1X-treat, 3X-treat, 4X-treat, 2X-treat, 7X-treat...Only give treats for really good executions of the behavior you want and don't give treats to lure or after she makes a mistake. Once she figures out that only coming quickly or moving off the lounge agreeably and quickly gets a treat she will try harder and harder to be as good as she can be.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Do what Lily says! She's exactly right. When you play the OFF game start holding a pretend treat and get her used to following your empty fingers. You do not want to train your dog to listen when you only have food in your hand. 

Random reinforcement, what Lily was saying, is what keeps people shoving endless amounts of money into a slot machine. Pay, pull the lever, nothing. Repeat, repeat, small trickle of money. Oh boy! Pay again, and again.

Giving treats becomes a random and a very exciting event. But, do remember to use pretend treats. And do find a trainer. You'll be so glad you did. 

What's your dog's name?


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

patticake said:


> :dance2:
> 
> Thanks for all the great help, I know i can improve her behavior myself now.
> I worked on the OFF game for the lounge with little bits of chicken, it was fun,
> ...


Routine is different for everyone. It's what you want it to be, and it also depends on how active your dog is. I like to have a fixed, set time for meals, medication and treat time, for example. But I wouldn't have a strict time for walks, because when you have set times, your dog expects the event to happen after a while and will get frustrated if it doesn't.

So just organize your day how you'd like it to be, and your dog will just follow and be happy with it. 40% could be routine, for example, and 60% varies from day to day, depending on the temperature and how you feel.

And some days are just lazy days, nothing particular happens. And your dog is okay with that as well.


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## patticake (Apr 17, 2017)

My little girls name is ASHA, 

I have lots of time for training now as i am having 6 months ( no work) YAY!

ASHA is very funny when she plays with a ball, she chases it then throws the 
ball up high in the air.

I'm looking forward to spending so much time with her.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

patticake said:


> My little girls name is ASHA,
> 
> I have lots of time for training now as i am having 6 months ( no work) YAY!
> 
> ...


If you're going back to work in 6 months, make sure she will be ready for it. Meaning, she needs to be used to be happy by herself. You have to get out of the house and leave her alone at different times of the day, and for various amount of time, up to the equivalent of one full workday. 

You need to be particularly careful that she doesn't become dependent on a routine that won't exist anymore when you go back. This would be a big shock and hard to get used to. If some pieces of her world change, that's easier. But you can't have her whole world full of activities and fun and then have everything disappear one day.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Very wise advice from Dechi. I would try to make the routine you establish one that you can continue when you start working again - meals early and late, before and after work time, stretches of the day when you are busy or not at home so that she is accustomed to managing without you, perhaps even building up a network of potential dog walkers. But this is also the perfect time to build up your relationship with Asha. Find a good trainer or a good class (take up references and/or sit in on a session or two, to be sure they are right for you); hide small pots of treats around the house and have impromptu training game sessions; play silly games - get down on the floor in a play bow and let Asha tell you how she wants to play; go for long rambles together somewhere with grass and trees and leaves and interesting smells, and leave your mobile phone switched off; watch her, and learn to read her signals, just as she will be watching you and learning to read yours. 

I would also teach her a way to say "Please" - Sophy discovered all by herself that if she went into a perfect Down (the behaviour she had most recently been taught) and tilted her head on one side I melted and got up to do what she wanted. Once she knew how to ask nicely she could get her own way without me feeling bossed about!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree whole heartedly with Dechi and fjm. While this time off from working is an excellent time to repair and rebuild your relationship with Asha, one super important thing to do is to make sure she can be happy on her own, learn how to settle herself when you aren't available and the like. I had a sabbatical leave when Lily and Peeves were young and I made sure that I took my project work to my local public library in large part to help my dogs not get used to the idea that I was always going to be around along with making me work on the project. Also Javelin was a summer puppy so I was around a lot, but made sure that I absented myself to help him understand that I was his devoted, but not constant, companion.

I also think you should give serious serious consideration to having a trainer work with you even if only for a few sessions so they can help you get the timing of your rewards, level of information and the like down to second nature. I train dogs, but I also have my own trainers I work with.


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## patticake (Apr 17, 2017)

I taught Asha to jump up into my arms, i was standing at the bench making her 
meal & she was excited so i put my arms down & said jump , now i stand up & say jump & she jumps right into my arms for a treat, it's lovely. 

I have been doing random reinforcement for Sit, Down, Roll over, so far ,
I can't get her to stay yet, 

Brushing still is not going well, with small growling complaining sounds.

I have been watching IT"s Me or the Dog from Victoria Stilwell, she is fantastic
with dogs, i'm learning a lot.

Would there be any Trainers with some more advice for me to follow.

Thanks


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks for updating us. It does sound like you are making some good progress. Maybe more than training videos you want to watch some grooming videos and read some of the information here particular to poodle grooming for the time being.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sounding good! As Lily says, grooming videos may help with brushing issues, as may going back to puppy basics (show the brush, treat; touch with the brush, treat; stop; next session, one stroke, treat; continue, building up very slowly. It sounds as if perhaps brushing hurts, or has hurt in the past, and she is now anticipating pain and warning you off. Has she ever been tangled or matted? It can easily happen if a dog is unhappy about being brushed and combed. If she does get matted the best thing to do is to shave her right down and start afresh, rather than put her through the trauma of trying to comb them out.

My other advice (apart from finding a really good class or trainer to work with) is to have lots of fun! You are both discovering that training games are fun and rewarding - hold onto the fun. It is easy to get hung up on the mechanics of training - if it all begins to get too serious or frustrating get on the floor for a silly game: play bow, play pretend chase, tickling, whatever Asha loves most. The oxytocin burst will do you both good!


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## patticake (Apr 17, 2017)

*Training Class*

I have found a dog training class near us, we have been a few times & got to know the trainer Glenn, 
Training is going very well Glenn is also working 1 on 1 with with Asha & myself.

The trainer said Asha has a very pushy & dominant temperament & he will help me fix her attitude.

What Glenn showed me was lay Asha down & pretend my hand is a dog mouth 
use this pretend dog bite all over her body, i think it's working well, after this
treatment, Asha behaves well & training is good.

Trainer will help me with her grooming problem, at my house & see what is going on in Asha's daily life, 

So far so good.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

thanks again for an update. I do agree with the trainer that your dog is pushy, but I don't generally think that dominance based training is always an effective strategy. Your dog needs to feel safe with you not as if you are going to attack her. Make sure you balance the training you are doing with lots and lots of well timed reward based training that reinforces good behaviors and that will help to extinguish bad behaviors.

I will say that both of my poodles are pushy dogs, but they both respect me as the one in charge without lots of dominance types of behaviors from me.

I hope you continue to see improvements and do really appreciate that you take the time to update.


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