# Opinions, please?



## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

Here's my pretty baby for your viewing pleasure  .


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

i think you would be more than justified in asking the trainer for an evaluation of Lizzy. I'm actually a little bothered by the fact that they don't seem to be taking your concerns seriously and might consider going elsewhere. 

Lizzy is also quite adorable!


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## Summerhouse (Jun 12, 2015)

We took a break between puppy class and starting at a different training school as we wanted to do beginners agility. He was good on all his basics even out on walks etc.

They insisted that we had to do the beginners basic class all over again even though it was a different training school and we were actually wanting to do agility not obedience. I wasn't too thrilled either and thought this will be a waste of time go for a couple of weeks and they'll see he's fine. Boy was I wrong it did us both the world of good. Don't forget it's not the dog getting trained it's YOU and he is probably wanting you to be trained in their methods especially when it's for therapy dog training.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would take the beginners class. Lizzy is still very young, and therapy work can be stressful - even if you take the therapy class now she may not yet have the maturity to cope in challenging environments. As Summerhouse says, training classes are about much more than teaching the dog specific behaviours, and I am sure you will both learn a lot in the new class if you go in with an open mind.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

A big part of classes isn't _really_ about the sit, stay, down, come. (they just tell you that. haha) You can teach those things at home and learn from all kinds of sources. Training classes teach a lot more and sometimes we're not aware of just what because those things may not be the primary thing you think you're going to class for. (there's a secret, covert operation going on here. lol) Your dog will get experience with some new, possibly rowdy dogs...watching them, learning that it's a perfectly normal thing to come across crazy dogs. He'll gain a little more habituation to external stimuli. Your dog can begin to learn some skills to focus on you in spite of these other new things going on. Well...if it's not too over whelming. You can work on focus things at home too and when you go back to class, try applying them there a little bit at first. So even if he already knows a lot of obedience skills, there are lots of other_ new _experiences to...well...experience. lol. And good preparation for the therapy class. Like it was mentioned, it's also good for you to get in the groove of this trainer's methods if you're going to be continuing with this trainer for the next thing. Good luck.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I understand how you feel and will say that at my club we would have had you come for an evaluation by taking a novice class. Then we would have either told you novice would be fine for you and Lizzy or we would have suggested you take our beginners class. But we are a not for profit club so our goal is not to collect people's money to pay salaries and bank profits.

That being said my only real issue with any of these classes you have available is an insistence on one method as being "the right method" above all others. I teach through positive methods although I don't necessarily encourage free shaping of behaviors unless I know the handler and know they are going to be very patient and consistent in that method. I do believe that for most people and dogs having a way to give the dog the information about what they are supposed to do and also what they have done that isn't correct (generally a verbal) is more constructive.

I don't think you can go wrong with extra training in any circumstance though and so I would regard this class as an opportunity for Lizzy to meet new dogs, work on her attention to you in a different setting and to hone her basic skills.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

i think everyone that's replied after me has made very good points, some i didn't think of when i replied. that said, i don't think you could go awry with an evaluation of Lizzy by the trainer, both so they can see her training level as well as how you interact with her.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I can see it both ways. I completely empathize with the frustration of being asked to repeat a class when you really want to move forward, especially when the reasoning behind the decision is imperfect. They haven't met your dog or seen you in action, so how can they possibly know where you are in your training? I've seen training centers do this to new clients out of arrogance ("just because you passed that instructor's course doesn't mean you'd pass mine") but also experience ("we've had several students from that instructor fail out of our therapy course"). I don't know which motivation predominates in your trainer, but I do understand your frustration.

On the other hand, now that I'm a few years away from puppyhood, I also see the value of good fundamentals in future training. My first trainer set such a good base for me and Mia, that we've excelled in everything we've done since. From dog sports to hunting to obedience to scentwork, our future trainers have been pleasantly surprised and I have been grateful. There's a lady in my Barn Hunt class who introduced herself by bragging about her conformation champion/mach/pach dog, but has atrocious timing and doesn't grasp shaping. Who did our instructor ask to co-teach the intro class? Me, who has accumulated a grand total of one title and will probably never compete again.

Without knowing you or your dog, I can't weigh in on what's best for you as a team. If you feel strongly that your dog knows these behaviors and you are competent in these training techniques, then (1) demonstrate this in class. Your goal is to have the trainer remark to you that you already have these commands down. And then you can (2) ask for something more advanced. While everyone is working on sit/down/stay, you can work on maintaining eye contact, heeling, touch targeting, or start training some tricks. Even though the class is a rehash of material you know, you can still find a way to make it productive.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Liz said:


> I can see it both ways. I completely empathize with the frustration of being asked to repeat a class when you really want to move forward, especially when the reasoning behind the decision is imperfect. They haven't met your dog or seen you in action, so how can they possibly know where you are in your training? I've seen training centers do this to new clients out of arrogance ("just because you passed that instructor's course doesn't mean you'd pass mine") but also experience ("we've had several students from that instructor fail out of our therapy course"). I don't know which motivation predominates in your trainer, but I do understand your frustration.
> 
> On the other hand, now that I'm a few years away from puppyhood, I also see the value of good fundamentals in future training. My first trainer set such a good base for me and Mia, that we've excelled in everything we've done since. From dog sports to hunting to obedience to scentwork, our future trainers have been pleasantly surprised and I have been grateful. There's a lady in my Barn Hunt class who introduced herself by bragging about her conformation champion/mach/pach dog, but has atrocious timing and doesn't grasp shaping. Who did our instructor ask to co-teach the intro class? Me, who has accumulated a grand total of one title and will probably never compete again.
> 
> Without knowing you or your dog, I can't weigh in on what's best for you as a team. If you feel strongly that your dog knows these behaviors and you are competent in these training techniques, then (1) demonstrate this in class. Your goal is to have the trainer remark to you that you already have these commands down. And then you can (2) ask for something more advanced. *While everyone is working on sit/down/stay, you can work on maintaining eye contact, heeling, touch targeting, or start training some tricks. Even though the class is a rehash of material you know, you can still find a way to make it productive.*


Absolutely. Everyone doesn't have to be working on the same thing at the same time...unless this trainer is that rigid. 

If this is the only logical place for you to go for training, then you might just have to suck up and go with the program the way the trainer wants. If there's another place that might be more flexible, that might be more up your alley.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

It's too bad they weren't a little more flexible on where you belonged. I do competitive obedience, and "home school" mine until I feel they are ready to be in the Novice class. 

It *could* be a plus in terms of strengthening her ability to focus on you and work in a distracting invironment. And you should be able to work with her and do what you want during downtime while others are working. I am usually either working with mine, playing/doing fun tricks, or relaxing with them, depending on what I feel they need to be doing. 

The one thing I would watch for is the other rowdy dogs being allowed to get into her face/space. Labs are kind of notorious for that. A class *should* have strict rules about keeping dogs from interfering with each other, but that doesn't always happen.


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

Thanks to all of you for your replies and advice. While I still believe that Lizzy is going to be a little advanced for this class (after all, she's SO above-average!  ), I feel somewhat reassured that I won't be completely wasting my time and money if it is necessary that we continue with it. I suppose it's within the realm of possibility that Lizzy isn't as advanced in her training as I believe , so I'll try to keep an open mind. I know the trainer is involved in the local WAGS pet therapy group, and she is aware of my interest in it, so, hopefully, she'll help to steer us in the right direction even if the we don't need her help with the basic obedience stuff.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

When I took my Dobe, Lyric to a puppy obedience class...I think he was about 5 or 6 months old...quite young, I had already taught him all kinds of stuff. He was an extremely trainable dog. I worked a LOT with him. I had to. He was hell on wheels otherwise. lol. Talk about an energizer bunny. Anyhow, he already had a very good down/stay, beginnings of sit while I went out of sight for a short time, he had a good start on a lot of things. One thing we had already been fading gradually for a while was my hand signal which was almost completely unnoticeable...very subtle. It was the mildest, quickest flick of the wrist and that meant "stay." I was working on phasing it out and teaching him that he is to stay where I leave him if I walk off, leading with my right and heeling when I lead off with my left foot. So, he was almost there. Staying in a down next to a line of dogs was nothing for him.

So, there we all were putting our dogs into a down/stay. Everyone made that big, flourishing hand signal with the palm in front of the dog's face, saying "stay!!" I didn't do much, no looking at the dog, no bending over...just that little flick of my wrist, a very tight, tiny motion... and I didn't say a word, just walked to the opposite side of the ring. I didn't look back, nothing. Lyric watched me intently, staying perfectly solidly. I knew he wouldn't break it. He was so practiced. The trainer came up to me and said, "good. But you forgot to tell him to stay." I said, "Oh...that's understood unless I tell him otherwise." She laughed and said, "show-off." haha. 

BUT what Lyric got was practice around other dogs, practice being a gentleman because he could be reactive outside of a class situation toward other dogs...not so much aggressive, but reactive. Somehow in class, he was always perfectly well behaved and didn't show interest in other dogs. (except for one time upon entering the ring. That's a whole other story.) He got more socialization which was vital for his breed. He got better until we took the CGC class and he passed right off. We also did agility. It's all good practice for the future. You may find some hidden benefits for your dog to get practice with. Plus, your dog may be used as an example in class. Pretty neat.


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## LittleAussiePoodle (Jun 2, 2016)

I think it sounds like a good idea. It will be good exposure for your dog (working around untrained individuals is great for practicing more advanced focus!), and could perhaps offer some information. It does sound like you are somewhat new to totally force-free training, and so they could also be somewhat helpful in that department.
I suspect it will be rehashing things, but it is worth going. It will help you iron out any kinks and get into the community.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm repeating Agility 100 which is the very first (intro) agility class in training for competition. We're repeating because Babykins is afraid of movement under her feet and is having trouble with the wobble board. I need her to be more comfortable with movement before we move to Agility 101 where they begin to introduce the teeter totter (see saw).

Similar to you, we are repeating 8 weeks of things we already do well. There is another dog repeating for different reasons. Both our dogs can do everything else extremely well (the other dog's owner has two other dogs competing in agility and we both take the training seriously). While we are both running through the basics we already learned in class (the teacher is using us to model to the other students what to do), she is also giving us extra work and allowing us time to work on our problem areas. Both of us are working on focus - away from the other dogs and random loud noises plus we're using the wobble board.

I've also had many trainers in several facilities and I'm always learning new things even when they are teaching something we know. 

If this is a good trainer, and you mention ahead of time that you had that other class and what your goals are, she should give you some additional guidance to work on to achieve your goal.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I don't think it's ever a bad idea to do additional training, but I'm going to weigh in on the other side here, and ask you to really evaluate whether you will be comfortable with this training center. 

I had a somewhat similar experience a couple years ago. I had done two beginner agility classes with Lily, but the next class was an intermediate class and was only offered on an evening I had a conflict, so I looked at other centers. At this point, I wasn't thinking of competition at all, I just wanted a fun agility class. I found a center by me that advertised just that- "a fun agility class"- so I called. They wanted to know if she had her CGC, and she didn't. Much of her training was private up until the agility classes, bcause I worked with a behaviorist initially to address the specific training needs she had as a rescue. 

They didn't seem too impressed with that, but told me they would evaluate her- which I had to pay extra for. I did this- and it was a 5-10 minute evaluation (for 25$) and she did very well, IMO. She had a perfect sit and stay, perfect heeling, and incredible eye contact, but when she told me to have her "down- stay" , I said I hadn't really worked on that with her, but in probably one evening at home, she could do it. They didn't accept that and because she did not have a perfect down/stay, she couldn't take the "fun agility class"- even though she had taken two agility classes (and done well) at a different center. 

Now, I'm very much of the bent that no learning is ever wasted, and you do need to respect the owner's policies, so I signed up for the basic obedience class they wanted her to take. Well, Lily got her down/stay, no big surprise, but the class very basic and I was not happy that I paid $150 for that experience. It left a bad taste in my mouth and decided I didn't want to take agility at that center. 

The silver lining to this is that I was telling this story to someone, and telling them how discouraged I was that we weren't doing agility. They recommended the center I go to now, and we've had nothing but great training experiences there.

Your situation may be very different, but I think it's important to feel comfortable with your trainer. If something is bothering you from the get- go with how they're handling things, you may want to re-evaluate.


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

Well, I went to a meeting of the local pet therapy club today, and I came away from it a little less sure of myself and more prepared to go through the next 5 weeks with an open mind. Of course, the fact that it was stipulated when I signed up for the class that there were no refunds helps with that a little! It helps, too, that I was informed that they had recently changed their evaluation guidelines, and dogs must now be 18 months old before they can be evaluated, so Lizzy and I have a LOT of time for more training in the meantime. Again, I SO appreciate all of you who shared your experiences and advice with me, it certainly helped to make me feel more relaxed about it all.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

So glad it's working out for you. Enjoy the journey!


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

Thought it only fair to the local Humane Society training staff to pop on here to say that I received a phone call from the trainer today offering to allow Lizzy and me to switch to the Therapy Prep class if I chose to do so . Wanted y'all to know they weren't so inflexible in their approach after all.  After weighing the pros and cons, and giving a lot of consideration to the valuable advice I received here on PF, I decided it was in Lizzy's best interests to go through the basic class at this time. As several of you pointed out, even if she knows the basic behaviors, putting them in practice in different surroundings, with the added distractions of the younger pups, will certainly be to her advantage in the long run. Thanks, once again, for your help in making this decision!


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

Just found and reread this thread - www.poodleforum.com/23.../214906-toby-ummm-sit-toby.html - and am now feeling REALLY good about my decision!


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

The link above wasn't working, but I found the thread.

Ha, I think we've all experienced that.


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

Liz said:


> The link above wasn't working, but I found the thread.
> 
> Ha, I think we've all experienced that.


Thanks! I'm somewhat technically challenged!


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