# Potty breaks vs walks



## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Here's a new behavior I'd like some help with.

Background: We don't have a fenced yard, but there is an on-leash potty area right outside our door. Archie has potty bells he can ring to be let out, and we also take him outside every few hours or so while he's still being housetrained (he can hold it longer than that, but he doesn't do it reliably yet unless he's in his crate). Archie is about 1 year old and was adopted from a city shelter 2 months ago.

Problem: Archie has decided that every single time he goes outside, he should be getting a full 30-minute walk through the neighborhood. Now, he never gets a full walk in response to ringing the bell, but he doesn't seem to have figured that out yet. So what happens is, he rings the bell or I take him out, I start walking toward the potty area, and when he figures out we're not heading for the street he just...stops. I'm able to coax him up to me, but even then he'll just walk around and sniff a bit before he starts pulling toward the street again. So after a couple rounds of this, I just take him back inside. 10 minutes later, he rings his bell again, and we repeat - we go outside, he stops in his tracks, I maybe coax him into checking out the potty area, we go back inside. If he rings the bell again shortly after that and I ignore him, there's a 50/50 shot he'll have an accident somewhere in the house. 

He was getting freeze-dried liver every time he pottied in the potty area (but not for peeing on walks), but I had to discontinue that over the weekend because he was having some stomach issues. Now that that seems to have cleared up, I'm going to reintroduce it again. He also has a harness that he pretty much only wears when he goes on a "real" walk - he seems to know that when I put the harness on him, he's going out for a while, but he hasn't figured out that when he's just on his flat collar, he's not going to leave the apartment complex.

Is there anything else I can do? I'm thinking this may be an overall stubborn streak that's coming out now that he's getting comfortable with us, and I'm not quite sure of the best way to handle it. He's already getting reluctant about peeing during his potty breaks, and I definitely don't want to discourage him any more.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I would suggest training him to "potty" on command. Use the freeze dried liver as a treat. Before you take him out say either "walk" or "potty" (use what ever word you like for No. one or No. twos) don't use a work you might inadvertently use in any other context. When in the potty area repeat the word often and when he goes immediately say "good boy" in a high pitched crooning voice. when he is finished treat him and say good boy again. It is a good idea to use separate collar and harness and one for each. He will pick this up quite fast. He really wants to go for a walk not a potty trip. When he does go and after treating let him walk around a bit and sniff the Pmail. Otherwise he will think going for you is the signal to stop and go inside. In time it will all become routine.
Eric


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would try something other than liver, if that upsets his digestion (it had the same effect on Sophy in even the smallest quantities). Perhaps a mini walk - five minutes rather than 30 - would satisfy his craving, and, as Eric says, make sure some good stuff happens after rewarding the act itself. Fun in the house can also help - my two know that they get special tooth treats after the last trip out of the day, which helps to encourage them to get a move on, and there are exciting games that we only play indoors that they also know the names of. And if he loves walks so much, and is asking for them so clearly, could you build another one into your daily routine?


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I agree with Eric. Having dogs that potty on command makes life so much easier. No more standing for hours in the rain, and you can enjoy walks without worrying that your dog is going to potty in the wrong spot. Of course, the initial training period takes some effort, but you already are headed in the right direction. Does Archie have a crate that you can put him in when his is "saving his pottying" for when he comes back inside? Perhaps, you may have to go back to basics for a bit until he catches on.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Potty on command for sure!


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

OK, we picked out a potty command last night ("Do the numbers") and we're starting to build that in. And FJM, good to know the liver could be at fault for his tummy issues! His stomach was so upset last week that we actually discontinued all his treats and I'm just now adding things back in. It's such a recommended training treat that I didn't really think twice about bringing it back, but now that I think about it it really could be that he can't take too much of it. I'll look for another high-value treat like hot dogs or cheese in case that works better. And I think adding in a short walk, even if it's just a quick loop around the building, might help. 

I have been slacking on his morning walk lately because he keeps waking me up in the middle of the night, so we've been doing playtime instead on days when I'm exhausted from being up. I agree that sucking it up and going out in the morning will probably help, along with working on solutions to get him to sleep through the night again.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Because I have had several dogs with chronic pancreatitis that I had fed high fat treats when training as puppies, now I avoid high fat rewards. I use kibble most of the time when training and extra lean turkey cubes for high value treats. I would never give liver to a dog with tummy issues.

I too have a little poodle dude that wants to go for walks more than use the backyard. If I don't have time to take him on a walk, he goes back in the crate until I can take him out again. You have to do what you have to do to avoid those accidents in the house.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I forget, how old is Archie? If a puppy then I would not use anything other than kibble for most training. The only time Javelin gets anything other than his kibble for training is to reward relaxed behavior of the grooming table where both he and Lily get freeze dried chicken liver. As MiniPoo notes pancreatitis is one concern, but excess calories is another.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

He just hit 1 year old. We have to use really high-value treats when he's outside or in training class because otherwise he'll refuse to take anything. Kibble works just fine inside the house, though.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

The high value treats can be of a lower fat content. Lean chicken or turkey or some fish. When in class we tend to give a lot of treats to keep the dog's attention. If you must use high fat treats, I hope they are small sized.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Yeah, he just gets little bits of anything when he's training - his kibble is actually larger than the little pieces of cheese/meat treats that he gets in class or when practicing things outdoors. Just enough to get the taste of it seems to be enough. I've experimented with a few different things but it has to be really yummy and/or smelly to be worth it to him in a distracting environment, and you typically have to up the value the longer he's there - he's had a few classes where he would start out working for bits of those Natural Balance food logs, but by the end he wouldn't listen for anything but string cheese.

For the potty command specifically, I'm trying to find something special that he'll get REALLY excited over, that he can only have at potty time. I'm hoping that'll help motivate him to seek out the outside area to pee, instead of just using it when it's convenient like he does now.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well dealing with distractions is hard but you seem to have gotten into a pattern of letting him bribe you for getting his attention. A one year old dog should be on a spartan food reward regime not really needing more and better bribes to get through a class. I know this is unsolicited advice not related to your original question and its free (meaning it has no real value if you don't want it to), but I would work on making yourself way more interesting than the other dogs at the class. Try using life rewards like playing tug to increase your pup's centripetal attraction for you.

For example last week during my novice class (which had very high level distraction of my mom and her mpoo) I took Javelin out on the training floor and walked with him a little, had him do some sits and look at me work and then I played with him with a tug toy. It was his only reward other than a few bits of kibble and it was a good training distraction for the dogs in the class.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I know he's a year old, but he's also a fairly recent shelter adoptee who came to them as a stray without any prior training. So we've been using lots of treats and other rewards (as encouraged by our training class teachers) to help him figure things out. I have brought toys to class, but they're even less interesting than treats when there are other dogs and people around - he's an intensely social dog, so really his best reward would be getting to interact with the other dogs, which is of course inappropriate for the environment. 

I do appreciate the advice, though, and we'll keep looking for a variety of rewards to build into his learning life. He really has excellent focus and attention most of the time, but when he won't take a reward (even after checking in with me visually) I worry he's not learning as well as he could be.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oops I didn't realize he was a rescue. Then yes you do have extra work to do, but I still would work on keeping the feeding for work as low key as possible. I wish you all the best.

Not being willing to take a reward is something I would read as a stress response (for example Peeves won't take any food during a thunder storm). You might want to move him away from whatever you think the source of the stress is to get his focus back.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Yeah, I realize I didn't make his background clear. That would explain why he's a 1-year-old who's still having issues figuring out the potty training thing too, I'm sure, haha.

Do you think the treat refusal could also be an overexcited/overstimulated response? I ask because he doesn't seem stressed so much as excited and interested in other things. Like he'll look at me, look at the treat, and then decide to ignore it and go toward whatever's distracting him instead. He'll also whine if there's an interesting person or dog in the room and he can't go up to them, though he'll eventually settle if we work on other things. So I'm wondering now if it's just that treats are less interesting, or if he gets worked up past a point where he can focus without something very enticing to lure his attention back. His body language seems different when he's stressed in a fearful kind of way, and he tends to come toward me to hide instead of looking away. But I could be missing some complexity here.

We're starting his next group training class next weekend with a different trainer, so I'll get her input when she can see him in person and all. Just wondered what you think about that with more excitable, social dogs like mine.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you are probably reading him right - he is not interested in the low value treats because he is excited and distracted rather than fearful. I don't think there is any harm in using high value treats in a very distracting environment, although when not in a class environment I would ask the owner of the other dog if it is OK for them to meet and greet, and use that as the reward. I once, with considerable difficulty, persuaded Sophy to come away from a neighbourhood BBQ - so many sausages, so little time... When she did come I praised her, had her follow me a few steps towards home - and then sent her back to the party. It was probably the most effective single training session we have ever done - you could almost see the realisation dawn that the way to get what she wanted was to do as I asked!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Stress can occur because of fear or worry but also from over excitement. Good stress (I want to go see that other dog so much) vs. bad stress ( am finding that dog to be very worrisome) I don't think it matters because they both can result in the same behaviors. Either way you want your dog to ignore the stressful stimulus and have more interest for you than that other thing.

With Peeves around other dogs his stress is the distraction of wanting to visit the other dog. For Lily having a judge behind her and asking her to do a drop is stressful. Both situations are stress but have the same result (non-compliance) even though the sources of the stress are very different.

fjm your description of training around the party was brilliant. What you did was very much what Ian Dunbar advocates for puppy classes. Puppy come, good puppy, thank you for coming promptly now go play. Playing is the reward for coming promptly. What could be better for a puppy?


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

That's an excellent point and I'll definitely keep that in mind. For this next class I think I'll talk to the trainer on the first day and see if we can strategize something. In his last class there were a few dogs who were practically reactive - constant pulling, whining, etc. - so they got the prime "space away from other dogs" spots. Archie isn't that bad; he just gets more and more distracted and wiggly the longer he has to hang out near a dog or person he can't meet, so by the end of each class I was spending more time trying to keep his attention and stop him from trying to visit than anything else.

And that story about Sophy is excellent! I'll have to build in more things like that when I'm working with him.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Maybe even talk to the trainer before the first day of class. Explain what you want to work on and ask for the instructor to watch for those signs of distraction/stress and help you manage it proactively rather than after Archie's attention is gone. I also think if there is a way to reward Archie with being able to meet another stable/neutral dog and then go back to work then meet/play, back to work in short sessions such that he learns that his reward for attention on you is to play that would be awesome.

I have used Lily as a neutral dog a number of times. She is awesome since I can give her to my client or one of their family members while I work with their dog. She is very happy to be quietly mindful of just about anyone as long as I give her to that person. Too bad we aren't near each other.


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