# Sticky  Coarse, Dark Hair Patch on Mini GoldenDoodle (Poodle Relevant Too)



## Basil_the_Spoo

What a cutie pie. I can imagine how it feels when something shows up on your furbaby, hopefully the vet can help explain.


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## Rose n Poos

Due to the crossing of breeds, it's not possible to know if the GR genetic input would act/react the same as 100% poodle hair but we have seen members post about their poodles who's coats turned to the color it was at birth after an injury or bite, something like. 

After the whatever healed, the coat color and texture generally regrow to their pre-change appearance. 

That patch looks odd tho. If an injury, it's quite large and you'd have noticed very quickly. 

A vet is the right call for you and your sweetie-pie.


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## cowpony

I too would think some minor skin injury. My boys Pogo and Snarky used to scrape their backs crawling under farm gates. All summer they would have an odd coarse textured patch on their shoulders. It would grow out in winter.


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## Toast522

Thank you for everyone’s responses. It gave me peace of mind that it wasn’t anything too serious as I waited for our vet appointment.

I just wanted to pass on what the vet diagnosed her with, in case that helps anyone else.

The vet thought this was an unusual presentation. She hadn’t seen anything like this before. She even had to bring Toast back for the other vets to look at.

They came to the conclusion that this is the early stages of pyderma (sp?). And I may be spelling that wrong. Basically an infection of the skin follicles. They believed this is an unusual presentation of pyoderma but they have seen it present like this before. 

Toast’s case seems unusual because this new hair did not start off as a bald spot. And her skin is not red and irritated. The hair is just starting to grow in coarse and dark. It doesn’t seem to bother her at all and she doesn’t even try to itch it. It does appear to be spreading.

Toast is now on antibiotics and a special shampoo. It will take many weeks to treat, but I’m so glad we have a plan.

I just wanted to pass this along on case any other poodle parents experience this. Hopefully this can point you in the right direction for treatment


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## cowpony

I'm glad they are taking it seriously. Their diagnosis is consistent with everyone else's thought that the issue is related to a minor skin injury.
If the antibiotics don't solve the issue it might also be worth asking your vets about alopecia and sebaceous adenitis. These conditions are both more common in poodles than in the general dog population.


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## Toast522

cowpony said:


> I'm glad they are taking it seriously. Their diagnosis is consistent with everyone else's thought that the issue is related to a minor skin injury.
> If the antibiotics don't solve the issue it might also be worth asking your vets about alopecia and sebaceous adenitis. These conditions are both more common in poodles than in the general dog population.


That’s good to know. Thank you.


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## Angel 88

Toast522 said:


> That’s good to know. Thank you.


I am so happy I found your post. My 4 yr old golden doodle has the same thing right now after groom. Full lab work up at vet and they are stumped. Taking her to dog dermatologist. How is your dog doing?


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## Toast522

Angel 88 said:


> I am so happy I found your post. My 4 yr old golden doodle has the same thing right now after groom. Full lab work up at vet and they are stumped. Taking her to dog dermatologist. How is your dog doing?
> View attachment 478756


Thank you for sharing. That looks exactly like what our dog, Toast, has. Right down her spine like that. 

After about 6 days on antibiotics and her special shampoo, I think it has gotten worse. I’m not sure it’s the pyoderma, but we want to finish the prescribed course of medication.

Her Vet, and 4 other vets in the office, were stumped as well. The fact she didn’t go bald first - that it just started growing like this, really stumped them. They mentioned that she is also so young to get certain issues. Only one of the 5 vets brought up seeing pyoderma present like this before. So we started with that.

After reading about it, I think it may be the issue with her coat that was mentioned above. This is just me guessing, but the issue with the sebaceous glands seems to make sense.

After a full week of treatment, I’m going to ask the vet if we need to switch her diet to something heavier in omega 3s? I also read that doing baby oil baths might help - assuming it’s the issue with the sebaceous glands. So that’s my next step, after waiting a couple more days to give this course of treatment a shot.

It really doesn’t seem to bother her at all, aside from just looking funny. I hope you have the same situation.

Thank you for sharing your story. That makes me feel that there is someone else out there to bounce ideas off of. Let me know how your little ones treatment is going and I’ll keep you posted on Toast. I hope everything goes well for you.


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## Toast522

This is Toast’s back after 6 days of antibiotics and the shampoo treatment. It is spreading along her spine. I’m hoping it needed to get worse before it got better - meaning the (possibly) infected skin needed to come off and the new fur needs to start growing in. But I really don’t know. She has no other symptoms so it’s hard to know what else to do for her.


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## Angel 88

Toast522 said:


> Thank you for sharing. That looks exactly like what our dog, Toast, has. Right down her spine like that.
> 
> After about 6 days on antibiotics and her special shampoo, I think it has gotten worse. I’m not sure it’s the pyoderma, but we want to finish the prescribed course of medication.
> 
> Her Vet, and 4 other vets in the office, were stumped as well. The fact she didn’t go bald first - that it just started growing like this, really stumped them. They mentioned that she is also so young to get certain issues. Only one of the 5 vets brought up seeing pyoderma present like this before. So we started with that.
> 
> After reading about it, I think it may be the issue with her coat that was mentioned above. This is just me guessing, but the issue with the sebaceous glands seems to make sense.
> 
> After a full week of treatment, I’m going to ask the vet if we need to switch her diet to something heavier in omega 3s? I also read that doing baby oil baths might help - assuming it’s the issue with the sebaceous glands. So that’s my next step, after waiting a couple more days to give this course of treatment a shot.
> 
> It really doesn’t seem to bother her at all, aside from just looking funny. I hope you have the same situation.
> 
> Thank you for sharing your story. That makes me feel that there is someone else out there to bounce ideas off of. Let me know how your little ones treatment is going and I’ll keep you posted on Toast. I hope everything goes well for you.


The vet said we could actually biopsy the area and they can confirm if it is this or that. It is light sedation and a few stitches . I will tell you what the dermatologist says when I go. I am just worried it is some deeper issue .. an endocrine or hormone problem. Did you do lab work? Many times hair issues with dogs (like humans) can be deeper things so I want to rule out any auto immune disease that may be rearing it’s head. She did have elevated Triglycerides and cholesterol which they said was because she ate breakfast that morning… But increases in those two items are also the beginnings of Cushing’s disease which also impacts the color of hair… Extra panting… Excessive thirst… Bloating. I doubt it is any of that but I absolutely want to rule out those as well. I have a friend whose dog had Cushing’s and their vet missed it the first time around delaying treatment. To be continued.


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## Rose n Poos

I'd possibly be considering sebaceous adenitis but I don't think either pup is having hair loss with this? 

Possibly a long shot but have either of you looked at the Golden Retriever forum for similar issues? 

In doing other research I'd run across a very informative site for crosses called We Love Doodles (sorry no link). 

There might be something helpful there. 

It's hard enough when something isn't right and even harder when you dont know just what it is. 

Hope the vet derm will have easy answers!


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## cowpony

Here is a link to the health page maintained by the Poodle Club of America. Additionally, here is a link to the health tests required for dogs to get CHIC health certification from OFA. Since doodles are crossbreds, it's worth researching the health problems common to both breeds.


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## Toast522

Rose n Poos said:


> I'd possibly be considering sebaceous adenitis but I don't think either pup is having hair loss with this?
> 
> Possibly a long shot but have either of you looked at the Golden Retriever forum for similar issues?
> 
> In doing other research I'd run across a very informative site for crosses called We Love Doodles (sorry no link).
> 
> There might be something helpful there.
> 
> It's hard enough when something isn't right and even harder when you dont know just what it is.
> 
> Hope the vet derm will have easy answers!


Thank you! Our vet did mention that she thought it might be the golden in her causing these issues. Toast is 75% mini poodle and 25% golden retriever.


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## Toast522

Angel 88 said:


> The vet said we could actually biopsy the area and they can confirm if it is this or that. It is light sedation and a few stitches . I will tell you what the dermatologist says when I go. I am just worried it is some deeper issue .. an endocrine or hormone problem. Did you do lab work? Many times hair issues with dogs (like humans) can be deeper things so I want to rule out any auto immune disease that may be rearing it’s head. She did have elevated Triglycerides and cholesterol which they said was because she ate breakfast that morning… But increases in those two items are also the beginnings of Cushing’s disease which also impacts the color of hair… Extra panting… Excessive thirst… Bloating. I doubt it is any of that but I absolutely want to rule out those as well. I have a friend whose dog had Cushing’s and their vet missed it the first time around delaying treatment. To be continued.


Keep me posted. We didn’t do a blood test but I’m going to call the vet again on Monday. I really like our vet, and they have a really good reputation around here. I do worry that they were stumped when we brought Toast in. But it sounds like whatever this is, is tough to diagnose. 
I really appreciate all the information on this forum. I feel like I can ask the get some more educated questions and bring up some ideas. To be continued here as well…


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## Toast522

cowpony said:


> Here is a link to the health page maintained by the Poodle Club of America. Additionally, here is a link to the health tests required for dogs to get CHIC health certification from OFA. Since doodles are crossbreds, it's worth researching the health problems common to both breeds.


Thank you so much. This information will help me ask some educated questions with the vet. They really are doing their best, and I don’t fault them for not knowing. Especially since this seems to be tricky. But I’m glad I can do some research and present some ideas to them.


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## Rose n Poos

Toast522 said:


> This information will help me ask some educated questions with the vet. They really are doing their best, and I don’t fault them for not knowing. Especially since this seems to be tricky. But I’m glad I can do some research and present some ideas to them.


It's wonderful to have a vet that you feel like you're both partners in the health of your pet .


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## Angel 88

Toast522 said:


> Thank you so much. This information will help me ask some educated questions with the vet. They really are doing their best, and I don’t fault them for not knowing. Especially since this seems to be tricky. But I’m glad I can do some research and present some ideas to them.


I will have a biopsy done hopefully next week… I found this link to be very very helpful 





Sebaceous Adenitis Survey in Tacoma, WA - Dermatology Clinic for Animals


Sebaceous Adenitis Survey Results by Jenny Drastura With the support of the Genodermatosis Research Foundation (GRF), I recently conducted a survey to determine what types of treatments dog owners have found to be successful in controlling Sebaceous Adenitis, a skin condition caused by an...




dermvettacoma.com


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## Toast522

Angel 88 said:


> I will have a biopsy done hopefully next week… I found this link to be very very helpful
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sebaceous Adenitis Survey in Tacoma, WA - Dermatology Clinic for Animals
> 
> 
> Sebaceous Adenitis Survey Results by Jenny Drastura With the support of the Genodermatosis Research Foundation (GRF), I recently conducted a survey to determine what types of treatments dog owners have found to be successful in controlling Sebaceous Adenitis, a skin condition caused by an...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dermvettacoma.com


Good luck with the biopsy. We are going to the vet again next week, assuming no other symptoms pop up. That way she will be done with all her current log prescribed treatments and we can go from there.

I just took her into the groomer to get a bath and brushout. I asked her if she had ever seen anything like this before. She said she has seen it like this when it was a bruise and the hair started growing out like that.

I really don’t know where Toast would have got a big bruise like that on her back (other than the groomer). I have small kids and they play with her a lot, but I don’t know what they would have done that would have caused a bruise like that. But I guess it’s possible. The groomer first asked if we had a doggy door, and we don’t. But something to consider.

I don’t want to jinx it, but her hair is definitely growing out. Her skin underneath looks totally normal, as it has. So maybe the antibiotics and shampoo did something? Maybe it’s a bruise that’s healing? Or it still could be something else. I’m any case, it still doesn’t seem to bother her and she still doesn’t have any other symptoms. So still to be continued…


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## Angel 88

Thank you so much . I’m glad it’s growing back foe you. Please keep me updated and new pics would be great…


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## Toast522

Angel 88 said:


> Thank you so much . I’m glad it’s growing back foe you. Please keep me updated and new pics would be great…


It doesn’t look healed or anything. But it seems to be growing out. The second pic is a closeup where you can see some lighter hair strands peaking through. It still doesn’t look normal though. The vet did tell me it would take several weeks for it to start growing back (this is with the pyoderma diagnosis and antibiotics treatment).

A second groomer at the same place thought the same thing - in regards to it being from a bruise - after I picked her up yesterday. So one groomer told me when I showed her toast when I dropped her off. Then a second groomer told me the same thing when I picked her up. It is just their opinion though, but I figure they see a lot of things like this.

This is my current theory, but I’m still stumped: Toast wasn’t matted when we took her to the groomer on June 11th, but I’d say she was probably more tangled than normal. We had been on vacation the week before, and weren’t brushing her. Then her hair appointments got thrown off, so she was about a week late in her grooming when she finally had her appointment on June 11. I’ve been reading of their fur is matted, it affects blood flow. And maybe if the groomer went really hard brushing Toast at the june 11 appointment? Maybe that caused her to bruise? And maybe on her back is just more sensitive to brushing? This is totally me speculating though. And the only reason is because Toast has no other symptoms that match any diagnosis. My gut just tells me she doesn’t fit in the diagnosis the vet gave her. I know they are trying and haven’t seen this before, so they need to start somewhere. But just reading about the symptoms, none of them- except generally weird fur - fit pyoderma. And even the weird fur in the pyoderma pictures don’t match what Toast has.

Either way, I’m still going to take her back into the vet and suggest the blood work you had done. And the skin biopsy. But I’m also wondering if this bruise theory has anything to it?


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## Angel 88

Toast522 said:


> It doesn’t look healed or anything. But it seems to be growing out. The second pic is a closeup where you can see some lighter hair strands peaking through. It still doesn’t look normal though. The vet did tell me it would take several weeks for it to start growing back (this is with the pyoderma diagnosis and antibiotics treatment).
> 
> A second groomer at the same place thought the same thing - in regards to it being from a bruise - after I picked her up yesterday. So one groomer told me when I showed her toast when I dropped her off. Then a second groomer told me the same thing when I picked her up. It is just their opinion though, but I figure they see a lot of things like this.
> 
> This is my current theory, but I’m still stumped: Toast wasn’t matted when we took her to the groomer on June 11th, but I’d say she was probably more tangled than normal. We had been on vacation the week before, and weren’t brushing her. Then her hair appointments got thrown off, so she was about a week late in her grooming when she finally had her appointment on June 11. I’ve been reading of their fur is matted, it affects blood flow. And maybe if the groomer went really hard brushing Toast at the june 11 appointment? Maybe that caused her to bruise? And maybe on her back is just more sensitive to brushing? This is totally me speculating though. And the only reason is because Toast has no other symptoms that match any diagnosis. My gut just tells me she doesn’t fit in the diagnosis the vet gave her. I know they are trying and haven’t seen this before, so they need to start somewhere. But just reading about the symptoms, none of them- except generally weird fur - fit pyoderma. And even the weird fur in the pyoderma pictures don’t match what Toast has.
> 
> Either way, I’m still going to take her back into the vet and suggest the blood work you had done. And the skin biopsy. But I’m also wondering if this bruise theory has anything to it?
> View attachment 479171
> View attachment 479172


Honestly I think we have discovered something new . I am not buying the bruise thing. I do think the vet may have caused some damage maybe in a hurry pulling only the grain of the hair with the trimmers and perhaps our dogs have a sensitivity or sow thing. All of her spots always happen after groomin. Always. (This is the first tome it grew down her back) I spend every free minute googling and search in doodle forums in poodle forums (theta RE known fir skin issues ) and nothing. Your dog is the only one i have seen identical to mine.

I will share the results when I get them next week. They took biopsy’s from 3 area. Light anesthesia. Small stitches can hardly see them. She has no clue and can’t get to them to scratch so it’s beenfairly non eventful .


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## Toast522

Angel 88 said:


> Honestly I think we have discovered something new . I am not buying the bruise thing. I do think the vet may have caused some damage maybe in a hurry pulling only the grain of the hair with the trimmers and perhaps our dogs have a sensitivity or sow thing. All of her spots always happen after groomin. Always. (This is the first tome it grew down her back) I spend every free minute googling and search in doodle forums in poodle forums (theta RE known fir skin issues ) and nothing. Your dog is the only one i have seen identical to mine.
> 
> I will share the results when I get them next week. They took biopsy’s from 3 area. Light anesthesia. Small stitches can hardly see them. She has no clue and can’t get to them to scratch so it’s beenfairly non eventful .


I’m glad the biopsy went well. 

This may be an odd question, but where did your dog come from? I wonder if they are related? And it’s a genetic thing of some kind.
Toast came from a breeder in Ohio. She is an f1b mini golden doodle. 

And just for a frame of reference, we live just outside Boulder, CO. Idk if the altitude or some allergy specific to plants here play a factor. Irritating her skin in some way (even though her skin doesn’t look irritated, it’s just her fur growing weird). Obviously I’m just guessing because there aren’t any concrete answers.


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## Angel 88

Toast522 said:


> I’m glad the biopsy went well.
> 
> This may be an odd question, but where did your dog come from? I wonder if they are related? And it’s a genetic thing of some kind.
> Toast came from a breeder in Ohio. She is an f1b mini golden doodle.
> 
> And just for a frame of reference, we live just outside Boulder, CO. Idk if the altitude or some allergy specific to plants here play a factor. Irritating her skin in some way (even though her skin doesn’t look irritated, it’s just her fur growing weird). Obviously I’m just guessing because there aren’t any concrete answers.


NC and a local breeder.. all the moms and dads are all local… good thinking tho


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## Nkull

I am SO grateful to have found this page! I have a mini Whoodle (Mini poodle and Wheaten Terrier). She is going to be 1 year old in a few days and has the EXACT same thing. No balding - just dark hair under her light hair. What's really weird is she has these patches but both her breeds are single coated. Versus your Goldens that are double coated. 
I am taking her (Winnie) to the vet tomorrow. I've been Google investigating for weeks. The only thing I could find that seemed potential is Canine recurrent flank alopecia. Which I am hopeful is the issue. For my dog and yours. No itching, no skin issues. Just odd dark different textured hair in these patchy places that shows up and is growing on her back.


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## 94Magna_Tom

Nkull said:


> ...Canine recurrent flank alopecia. Which I am hopeful is the issue. For my dog and yours. No itching, no skin issues. Just odd dark different textured hair in these patchy places that shows up and is growing on her back.


Welcome to the group! I hope so too for Winnie's sake!


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## Angel 88

Nkull said:


> I am SO grateful to have found this page! I have a mini Whoodle (Mini poodle and Wheaten Terrier). She is going to be 1 year old in a few days and has the EXACT same thing. No balding - just dark hair under her light hair. What's really weird is she has these patches but both her breeds are single coated. Versus your Goldens that are double coated.
> I am taking her (Winnie) to the vet tomorrow. I've been Google investigating for weeks. The only thing I could find that seemed potential is Canine recurrent flank alopecia. Which I am hopeful is the issue. For my dog and yours. No itching, no skin issues. Just odd dark different textured hair in these patchy places that shows up and is growing on her back.


Yes! It worries me fit er and then found another mom who’s doodle has post clipping alopecia (google it). She was biopsied for sebaceous adentitis and it came back negative yesterday. Her true color is starting to grow back in the dark areas slowly. She has no rash or itching or anything. Bizzare @Toast522


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## Nkull

My Vet told me today not to worry about. Not to do anything but be patient. That it will come back in the next 6-12 months and look like her normal hair.


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## Darz

My mini goldendoodle just got home from the groomer today and I noticed the same patches on his back that several of you described. So unusual. I have read thru all of the comments and see several had biopsy's and tests done and others were told to wait it out. If anyone has any new info on this would love to hear about it. Appreciate all the comments on this forum!


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## Angel 88

Darz said:


> My mini goldendoodle just got home from the groomer today and I noticed the same patches on his back that several of you described. So unusual. I have read thru all of the comments and see several had biopsy's and tests done and others were told to wait it out. If anyone has any new info on this would love to hear about it. Appreciate all the comments on this forum!


I think it depends on your personal preference. The symptoms can be associated with two or three things. My goal was to quickly rule out anything endocrine related such as Cushings disease (where they die) so I chose more aggressive measures to have labs run. Once that was ruled out I needed to know if it was sebaceous adentitis (no cure and their hair falls out) after the texture change) because they don’t die but if you catch it early you can really keep it at bay . Those biopsies were negative so now we wait and see. I have a dermatologist appointment coming up but that is more for curiosity sake as I do now believe she has post clipping alopecia . But my personality could not handle “guessing” or waiting so I chose to rule out the more tumultuous conditions. All of us on The thread are still early in the journey and not much more to report. Our dogs still have the spots although at least no hair is falling out in that area which is comforting


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## Darz

Angel 88 said:


> I think it depends on your personal preference. The symptoms can be associated with two or three things. My goal was to quickly rule out anything endocrine related such as Cushings disease (where they die) so I chose more aggressive measures to have labs run. Once that was ruled out I needed to know if it was sebaceous adentitis (no cure and their hair falls out) after the texture change) because they don’t die but if you catch it early you can really keep it at bay . Those biopsies were negative so now we wait and see. I have a dermatologist appointment coming up but that is more for curiosity sake as I do now believe she has post clipping alopecia . But my personality could not handle “guessing” or waiting so I chose to rule out the more tumultuous conditions. All of us on The thread are still early in the journey and not much more to report. Our dogs still have the spots although at least no hair is falling out in that area which is comforting


Thanks for your reply!


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## Lawsona3

My mini goldendoodle has the same spot on her back right on the spine. Weird that they all get the same issue in one area


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## Rose n Poos

Curiosity got me internet poking again. I found this site, this thread and have only just started reading. The few photos I've seen so far look similar to some of the photos here.

Coat changing from golden to brown down spine - Forum - Doodle Kisses

led to this one, with more threads linked in it, all short, and no diagnosis, but similar info
Is Daphne changing color? - Forum - Doodle Kisses

I spent a little time over on the GR forum first. There is of course coat change from puppy to adult which seems to start at 8m +/- and seems to frequently start down the spine. Poodle coat change from puppy to adult can start earlier but is usually noticeable by 8m. However, poodle coat change isn't known to start at any particular area, afaik.

Total speculation but I wonder if it's possible that whatever genetic trigger that controls the location of GR coat change starting point somehow gets going in the crosses at a later age and then "thinks" uh, what am I doing? and stops.


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## Angel 88

Lawsona3 said:


> My mini goldendoodle has the same spot on her back right on the spine. Weird that they all get the same issue in one area


Picture??


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## Toast522

Nkull said:


> My Vet told me today not to worry about. Not to do anything but be patient. That it will come back in the next 6-12 months and look like her normal hair.


That’s what we are doing now too. Our vet isn’t concerned at this point. Everything is coming back negative/in normal ranges, but we haven’t done a skin biopsy. Toast’s hair appears to be growing out - the roots of her fur are growing in lighter. The vet mentioned at the beginning it would take a long time to grow out after all her antibiotics and shampoo. At this point we aren’t being too aggressive because there just isn’t anything else popping up. 

We have another follow up with the vet on august 30th to measure her progress. I’ll keep everyone posted. I was going to talk to the vet about changing toast’s diet. I’ve read that might be a factor. She eats high quality food, but maybe we need to be very specific with what we give her.

My guess is we will probably have more blood work done on the 30th. But I’ll see what the vet has us do.


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## Toast522

Toast522 said:


> That’s what we are doing now too. Our vet isn’t concerned at this point. Everything is coming back negative/in normal ranges, but we haven’t done a skin biopsy. Toast’s hair appears to be growing out - the roots of her fur are growing in lighter. The vet mentioned at the beginning it would take a long time to grow out after all her antibiotics and shampoo. At this point we aren’t being too aggressive because there just isn’t anything else popping up.
> 
> We have another follow up with the vet on august 30th to measure her progress. I’ll keep everyone posted. I was going to talk to the vet about changing toast’s diet. I’ve read that might be a factor. She eats high quality food, but maybe we need to be very specific with what we give her.
> 
> My guess is we will probably have more blood work done on the 30th. But I’ll see what the vet has us do.


This isn’t a great pic Bc the lighting isn’t good. But in person, her roots really are coming in lighter. And more ‘normal’ fur seems to be coming in around her spot. She still doesn’t itch or isn’t in pain. Her skin underneath has always looked normal to me. 
so I’m with @angel88, I really think it had something to do with something at the groomer.


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## fjm

Mention of grooming has made me think of a labrador I know that had a severe reaction to shampoo as a puppy - it looked like chemical burns, and took a long time to heal. The spine would be precisely where shampoo might be poured... A long shot, but perhaps worth ruling out?


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## Toast522

fjm said:


> Mention of grooming has made me think of a labrador I know that had a severe reaction to shampoo as a puppy - it looked like chemical burns, and took a long time to heal. The spine would be precisely where shampoo might be poured... A long shot, but perhaps worth ruling out?


That’s a really interesting point. Bc Toasts fur issue came after she had a grooming appointment. I thought it might have had to do with the groomer brushing too hard or pulling on fur - affecting her blood flow in some way and causing bruising. I can see what kind of shampoo they use at our groomers, Bc that is an interesting thought. Maybe she had a reaction to the shampoo.


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## Angel 88

Rose n Poos said:


> Curiosity got me internet poking again. I found this site, this thread and have only just started reading. The few photos I've seen so far look similar to some of the photos here.
> 
> Coat changing from golden to brown down spine - Forum - Doodle Kisses
> 
> led to this one, with more threads linked in it, all short, and no diagnosis, but similar info
> Is Daphne changing color? - Forum - Doodle Kisses
> 
> I spent a little time over on the GR forum first. There is of course coat change from puppy to adult which seems to start at 8m +/- and seems to frequently start down the spine. Poodle coat change from puppy to adult can start earlier but is usually noticeable by 8m. However, poodle coat change isn't known to start at any particular area, afaik.
> 
> Total speculation but I wonder if it's possible that whatever genetic trigger that controls the location of GR coat change starting point somehow gets going in the crosses at a later age and then "thinks" uh, what am I doing? and stops.


Thanks for these links !


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## Lawsona3

Angel 88 said:


> Picture??


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## Lawsona3




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## RemyGD

We are going through the exact same thing! Vet did a test for Hypothyroidism but came back negative. They recommended we come back in a month for a biopsy. Vet hadn’t come across this in a goldendoodle but has seen in poodles. Will keep folks updated as we learn more. Curious to hear others progress as well.


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## Rose n Poos

RemyGD said:


> Vet hadn’t come across this in a goldendoodle but has seen in poodles


Considering the number of doodles vs poodles, I'm surprised to hear that your vet hadn't seen this in a cross before. Poodles can have an injury (bite, sting, cut, etc) response where the affected area will revert back to the color and texture of when they were puppies but does grow back eventually to the adult color and texture without any medical intervention. This will happen anywhere on the body that the injury was sustained. 

I did find one thread by an owner reporting on their toy poodle with a very similar pattern. The suspicion there was topical flea preventative as the culprit. 








Poodle fur discoloration/ texture change


My handsome toy poodle is 4 years old now, we have used k9 advantix topical his whole life and never has any issues. The vet office gave us effitix topical. The first time we used it no issues arose. The second time we used maybe a week or two later we noticed a small patch of hair missing and...




www.poodleforum.com





With the doodles mentioned in this thread, the change is on the spine area almost exclusively. Have you read thru the whole thread? The confounding factor here is the gene mix from the two (or more?) breeds. The location common in the doodles is on the spine.

With poodles, it's not location specific. There are other skin conditions which may affect the coat as well, but the change down the spine isn't how they present. The exception I've found so far is that thread linked above.


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## RemyGD

Any idea if her hair will grow back normal based on this cross breeding issue? Seems like others growing through this might have started to see some normal growth. We don’t use topical tick meds, just chewable simparica.


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## Rose n Poos

The bottom line seems to be, regardless of genetics, that if it's a response to an external source which isn't an ongoing source, that the coat is very likely to grow back as it was before whatever it was that caused the change happened. It takes time, tho. 

Another factor mentioned by several was a recent grooming as a possible outside source or a dog of the right height to rub their back under the edge of something repeatedly, maybe to scratch or self massage. It may feel relieving to do that but may also be just enough catalyst to cause the effect.

How far you want to or need to go with diagnostic procedures is something that you and your vet should decide.


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## Karen&Luci

I am so happy to find this post. My 18 month old mini golden doodle has developed 2 spots like this! So happy you all have posted so I know we are not alone.


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## GBColorado

My 2 yr old goldendoodle (Multigen - F1B mom x F1B dad) is going through the same thing! He has dark patches of hair starting at his rump and they are spreading up his spine towards his neck. The hair coming in is coarser and straighter (Vet said it almost looks retriever-like) than the rest of him which is loose curly. We live in South Denver, CO and we got Murphy from a breeder in NC. I'm part of a facebook group called Denver Doodle Club and just this morning there was a post about someone with this very issue followed by over 30 comments of people with doodles in Colorado going through the same thing. I'm beginning to wonder if there is something environmental going on. Consensus on that group was that it could be due to an injury to the hair follicles in the area. We took Murphy to the vet today and they believe it could be allergies, hypothyroidism, or early stage sebaceous adenitis. They took some labs, we're awaiting the results. I'll post with the results soon as we receive them. Please keep us updated on your pup's progress!


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## Rose n Poos

Thinking on this some more. I was disappointed that the Denver Doodles FB group was private. This particular discussion could have been very informative.

I see that most everyone has sensibly contacted or been seen by their vet but without answers.

It just occurs to me to ask, have any of you contacted your breeder to ask
1/ if they might happen to know what this is
2/ if they have any dogs that have had this
3/ if any other owners of any other pups from the litter yours came from have contacted them about this

Another possibility might be to do some DNA testing. DNA health testing and breed identification are included in most companies tests, I think. Several do coat DNA for color and texture so there might be something helpful in that. There may also be some genetic skin conditions which could show in the health testing. One company at least, possibly Embark, will also give you info on close relatives and contacting those owners might be helpful. 

I'm not sure if any company does all of these so if this idea seems useful, it could be worth it to investigate. 

I'd start with the breeder first, tho, just to see if anyone gets an answer and particularly if more than one of you gets the same answer.

Given that there seems to be more of you than coincidence alone could account for, it seems very likely that a forthcoming breeder will know or at least have seen this condition before. The very specific nature of it and what appears to be the prevalence in Goldendoodles yells to me that someone breeding them must know something helpful.

If we had this many members with purebred poodles showing this condition, we'd be checking with the breeder for the reasons noted above. They'd want to know of this. They might know what it is,


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## Bjakel

Angel 88 said:


> The vet said we could actually biopsy the area and they can confirm if it is this or that. It is light sedation and a few stitches . I will tell you what the dermatologist says when I go. I am just worried it is some deeper issue .. an endocrine or hormone problem. Did you do lab work? Many times hair issues with dogs (like humans) can be deeper things so I want to rule out any auto immune disease that may be rearing it’s head. She did have elevated Triglycerides and cholesterol which they said was because she ate breakfast that morning… But increases in those two items are also the beginnings of Cushing’s disease which also impacts the color of hair… Extra panting… Excessive thirst… Bloating. I doubt it is any of that but I absolutely want to rule out those as well. I have a friend whose dog had Cushing’s and their vet missed it the first time around delaying treatment. To be continued.


I just cam across this thread and glad I did because my 2 year old Goldendoodle just starting showing the same issues on her back after a grooming. Much like both of your dogs, my







Rudy Rose was up to date on all her vaccines too. I’m stumped by this! What have you learned of your dog’s condition since and has it cleared up any?


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## Rose n Poos

The posts on the Doodlekisses site go back as far as 2013, iirc. No one seems to have gotten any diagnosis from the medical community.

Because of this, I'm bumping to ask again

_have any of you contacted your breeder to ask
1/ if they might happen to know what this is
2/ if they have any dogs that have had this
3/ if any other owners of any other pups from the litter yours came from have contacted them about this

Another possibility might be to do some DNA testing.

I'd start with the breeder first, tho, just to see if anyone gets an answer and particularly if more than one of you gets the same answer.

Given that there seems to be more of you than coincidence alone could account for, it seems very likely that a forthcoming breeder will know or at least have seen this condition before. The very specific nature of it and what appears to be the prevalence in Goldendoodles yells to me that someone breeding them must know something helpful.

If we had this many members with purebred poodles showing this condition, we'd be checking with the breeder for the reasons noted above. They'd want to know of this. They might know what it is, 

I truly believe that someone who is as close as a breeder is to seeing litter after litter thru the years, and hopefully stays in contact with the pups owners will have seen this condition and know what it is and what causes it. 

goldendoodle discolored fur on spine - Google Search _


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## GBColorado

2 Week update on our Murphy

_Vet Visit _-- Our vet did a ANTECH - Thyroid Profile 2 panel to rule out hypothyroidism. Everything came back within normal ranges. We started Murphy on daily regiment of Zyrtec. So far no change to the hair along his back. The darker/coarser hair is not spreading, just getting longer like the rest of his hair. We will continue on Zyrtec and keep an eye on it for worsening symptoms such as oily skin or bald spots which could point to sebaceous adenitis. If this happens, vet will do a biopsy first to confirm before treatment. 

_Discussion with Breeder_ -- I reached out to our breeder who has full (and clear) genetic panels on both of Murphy's parents. She said she has seen this happen when a dog is injured or has a hot spot and hair comes back darker. She is also aware of many forums like this one where possible causes such as topical flea meds have been discussed but no definitive diagnosis has been reached. 

In short, the mystery continues.


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## Rose n Poos

I did some more digging thru PF and found more instances of this happening with poodles too. 

The general consensus still seems to be a cosmetic issue related to some kind of "injury" to the area. I'm coming back around to that as most likely.

SA or other skin conditions are a reasonable concern, but they don't present this way - the skin doesn't seem to be affected - but I don't remember anyone ever reporting back in any threads on any forum that SA or any other skin condition was diagnosed. It just seems unlikely to me still that this is anything but cosmetic. 

(10) 8 Year Old Silver Beige Growing Dark Brown Fur Spot | Poodle Forum


Black hair from nowhere | Poodle Forum


(10) Silver poodle suddenly has black patches of hair | Poodle Forum


(10) Random patch of different hair on back? | Poodle Forum


(10) Coat change or health concern? | Poodle Forum


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## fjm

Poppy has dark regrowth on her back on the bare patches around sebaceous adenomas - they were amongst the first areas to lose hair when she started steroids, and the first to regrow since we reduced the dose. Regrowth in other areas is also darker. It would seem to be an effect of hair follicles damaged in some way - quite possibly there are therefore many different causes that have what appears to be the same effect.


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## Angel 88

GBColorado said:


> 2 Week update on our Murphy
> 
> _Vet Visit _-- Our vet did a ANTECH - Thyroid Profile 2 panel to rule out hypothyroidism. Everything came back within normal ranges. We started Murphy on daily regiment of Zyrtec. So far no change to the hair along his back. The darker/coarser hair is not spreading, just getting longer like the rest of his hair. We will continue on Zyrtec and keep an eye on it for worsening symptoms such as oily skin or bald spots which could point to sebaceous adenitis. If this happens, vet will do a biopsy first to confirm before treatment.
> 
> _Discussion with Breeder_ -- I reached out to our breeder who has full (and clear) genetic panels on both of Murphy's parents. She said she has seen this happen when a dog is injured or has a hot spot and hair comes back darker. She is also aware of many forums like this one where possible causes such as topical flea meds have been discussed but no definitive diagnosis has been reached.
> 
> In short, the mystery continues.


----------



## Angel 88

Rose n Poos said:


> The posts on the Doodlekisses site go back as far as 2013, iirc. No one seems to have gotten any diagnosis from the medical community.
> 
> Because of this, I'm bumping to ask again
> 
> _have any of you contacted your breeder to ask
> 1/ if they might happen to know what this is
> 2/ if they have any dogs that have had this
> 3/ if any other owners of any other pups from the litter yours came from have contacted them about this
> 
> Another possibility might be to do some DNA testing.
> 
> I'd start with the breeder first, tho, just to see if anyone gets an answer and particularly if more than one of you gets the same answer.
> 
> Given that there seems to be more of you than coincidence alone could account for, it seems very likely that a forthcoming breeder will know or at least have seen this condition before. The very specific nature of it and what appears to be the prevalence in Goldendoodles yells to me that someone breeding them must know something helpful.
> 
> If we had this many members with purebred poodles showing this condition, we'd be checking with the breeder for the reasons noted above. They'd want to know of this. They might know what it is,
> 
> I truly believe that someone who is as close as a breeder is to seeing litter after litter thru the years, and hopefully stays in contact with the pups owners will have seen this condition and know what it is and what causes it.
> 
> goldendoodle discolored fur on spine - Google Search _


So we have done biopsies and bloodwork to rule out endocrine issues as well as SA. Today we finally made it to a dermatologist for dogs and they concluded that this is fairly common in poodles and mixed poodle breeds… Where they have extremely sensitive hair follicles. This could’ve happened after a grooming incident or something like that which we will never truly know but because they Don’t shed it could be a year and a half before the hair ever grows back. But no overall health concerns.


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## Angel 88

]
So we have done biopsies and bloodwork to rule out endocrine issues as well as SA. Today we finally made it to a dermatologist for dogs and they concluded that this is fairly common in poodles and mixed poodle breeds… Where they have extremely sensitive hair follicles. This could’ve happened after a grooming incident or something like that which we will never truly know but because they Don’t shed it could be a year and a half before the hair ever grows back. But no overall health concerns.


----------



## Angel 88

RemyGD said:


> We are going through the exact same thing! Vet did a test for Hypothyroidism but came back negative. They recommended we come back in a month for a biopsy. Vet hadn’t come across this in a goldendoodle but has seen in poodles. Will keep folks updated as we learn more. Curious to hear others progress as well.


]
So we have done biopsies and bloodwork to rule out endocrine issues as well as SA. Today we finally made it to a dermatologist for dogs and they concluded that this is fairly common in poodles and mixed poodle breeds… Where they have extremely sensitive hair follicles. This could’ve happened after a grooming incident or something like that which we will never truly know but because they Don’t shed it could be a year and a half before the hair ever grows back. But no overall health concerns.


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## Rose n Poos

Thanks to you both, Angel 88 and GBColorado for keeping us updated with all that you've been trying and that you've learned.
It's not the definitive "Oh yes, that's the cause" we might have hoped for, but by ruling out so much it seems to leave only the cosmetic result of some kind of "insult" to the skin, with poodles most likely the common denominator.

I didn't extend my online research to other crosses but we have our Wheaten-Poodle cross as a start. I'm now going to be surprised if more crosses with poodles don't show the same thing if they should have a similar "insult" to their skin. 

If there's nothing but fur changing color, and possibly texture, it's probably just that reaction described above. 

If the skin itself is showing changes, or there's loss of coat, I'd be quicker to check with the vet since there are skin conditions that affect the coat. 

Keep in touch, please. Your experiences will help others .


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## ChristyLou

Toast522 said:


> Hello,
> My 2 year old mini golden doodle has recently developed a patch of coarse fur on her back. It’s darker than the rest of her fur.
> 
> It doesn’t seem to cause her pain and she doesn’t appear to try to itch it. It doesn’t seem to bother her, even when I try to look at it.
> 
> She has no known injury, she is up to date on all her shots (but she hasn’t had any for about 8 months- she will be due again soon though), she hasn’t had fleas, takes her heart worm medication, etc. The skin underneath looks normal and healthy.
> 
> It did start to show up after a grooming appointment she had a week and a half ago, but I don’t know if there is any correlation to that.
> 
> We have a vet appointment coming up in a few days to hopefully get some answers.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this? The second picture is of her dark spot - it’s on her back. The third photo is of her from just a couple weeks prior, with no dark spot. Thanks!
> View attachment 478432
> T
> View attachment 478430
> View attachment 478431


Our 2-year old mini-goldendoodle, Baxter, has a similar spot on his back. First I noticed a clump of hair fell out and the skin was very smooth. A little more hair fell out, and now it is growing back redder and coarser than the rest of his hair. His vet didn't know what it was. Took him to a dog dermitologist, spent hundreds, but no conclusion or diagnosis there either. He otherwise seems healthy, so I guess we shouldn't worry. It's interesting to see that other mini-doods have the same issue.


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## Nic844

Our 3 year old F1B mini goldendoodle is having the exact same thing, we just noticed it this weekend. Our vet called it a “pigment change” and said it’s common in doodles.. it doesn’t seem to be bothering him at all and he is acting totally normal so I guess will just see what happens- but looks so strange- and concerning! 😕


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## Sadie’s mom

Nic844 said:


> Our 3 year old F1B mini goldendoodle is having the exact same thing, we just noticed it this weekend. Our vet called it a “pigment change” and said it’s common in doodles.. it doesn’t seem to be bothering him at all and he is acting totally normal so I guess will just see what happens- but looks so strange- and concerning! 😕


We have the same thing.


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## Rose n Poos

Thanks for adding to this thread. The majority experience is that this isn't a sign of a major problem, but still should be vet checked for an opinion. There are some skin conditions that can cause a similar look that might require treatment. Better safe...


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## Toast522

Nic844 said:


> Our 3 year old F1B mini goldendoodle is having the exact same thing, we just noticed it this weekend. Our vet called it a “pigment change” and said it’s common in doodles.. it doesn’t seem to be bothering him at all and he is acting totally normal so I guess will just see what happens- but looks so strange- and concerning! 😕


That looks exactly like what happened to our F1B mini golden doodle, Toast. Almost 5 months later, her fur still looks off. But she has no other symptoms and all the appointments we have had at the vet have come back with normal results. I would say it has got a little lighter over time, but still noticeably darker than the rest of her fur. All of it along her spine. 
we switched her diet to a little bit more high quality food, focusing on omega3s. That didn’t seem to do anything for Toast.


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## cowpony

Since some of these episodes happened after grooming, I wonder if a mild burn might be a contributing factor. Maybe some dogs get a light sunburn from going outside too long with winter pale skin and newly short hair.


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## 94Magna_Tom

cowpony said:


> Since some of these episodes happened after grooming, I wonder if a mild burn might be a contributing factor. Maybe some dogs get a light sunburn from going outside too long with winter pale skin and newly short hair.


I like the "reaction to concentrated shampoo" idea. Shampoo IS usually initially applied along the back/spine


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## Nic844

We had a thought - how many people experiencing this have a doggie door? If this is related to an injury of some sort, this spot is definitely where the doggie door might brush against his back… but still, not bothering him at all.


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## Jmacdo

Angel 88 said:


> Thank you so much . I’m glad it’s growing back foe you. Please keep me updated and new pics would be great…


Hi. Was there ever a diagnosis for Toast? This is exactly what Oscar has and same everything . Seems so rare and I’m going to the dog dermotologist tomorrow since the vet didn’t really know. Would be so helpful to know a diagnosis or outcome. I hope he is better now and thank you.


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## Jmacdo

Jmacdo said:


> Hi. Was there ever a diagnosis for Toast? This is exactly what Oscar has and same everything . Seems so rare and I’m going to the dog dermotologist tomorrow since the vet didn’t really know. Would be so helpful to know a diagnosis or outcome. I hope he is better now and thank you.


And Oscar has this on his leg not his back and so not from a doggie door - was after a groom so maybe this was a burn but it has spread over the past 2 -3 weeks since the groom


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## Rose n Poos

I'm not answering for Toast522 but I'm not sure if you've read thru the whole thread, or at least the last post from them.


Toast522 said:


> That looks exactly like what happened to our F1B mini golden doodle, Toast. Almost 5 months later, her fur still looks off. But *she has no other symptoms and all the appointments we have had at the vet have come back with normal results.* I would say it has got a little lighter over time, but still noticeably darker than the rest of her fur. All of it along her spine.
> we switched her diet to a little bit more high quality food, focusing on omega3s. That didn’t seem to do anything for Toast.


So far, no member posting has had any vet diagnose a medical condition beyond the unexplained-in-almost-all-cases reason for the "insult" to the hair follicles which seem to cause a long-term but otherwise cosmetic only change after the original cause.

There are some medical conditions that might present similar appearance but in practically every instance posted here, the skin is unaffected but the hair/fur is.

It's always worth it to check with your vet to ease your mind but it's unlikely to be anything that requires treatment, just time.


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## Copper+Scout

Glad to have found this discussion and have a bit of a curve ball to add... Our blond, 4 year old F1B mini golden doodle started presenting the similar darker hair patches down her back a couple months ago, starting with a small smooth/bald spot and then the dark, coarse red hair growing down her spine in patches. Very similar to what many of you have described and pictures you have shown. Went through the steps of visiting (stumped) vet, google searches, etc. Have a Derm appt scheduled for her in late Nov (first available). Skin healthy, acting normal, vet not concerned. We chalked it up to the bruise theory... playing rough with our other dog/always crawling under the bed at night despite being a bit too large to do so, etc. Didn't feel too concerned once our well-regarded Vet did not seem concerned. 

A month later, our 7 year old F1B medium golden doodle (same breeder in IL, but different parents) started presenting with the SAME COAT CHANGE! That's when I got really confused! They eat different diets. Both have taken heartgard/nexgard their whole lives. Made me feel both better and worse to see it pop up on our older dog a little later. Felt more comforted that younger dog prob didn't have some horrible disease, but maybe they were passing some sort of infection to one another!? Skin on both dogs looks totally healthy and normal. They do play pretty hard, but have done so for year... The ONLY thing that I can make sense of is the grooming theory. I had them both clipped down shorter than normal in July before heading on a long road trip to the beach for a couple weeks (foggy Oregon Coast beach, but still beach). Maybe combo of short clipping, plus sun exposure started some sort of follicle change!? I have not had them tested for Cushings or other autoimmune diseases yet, but my gut tells me this must be tied to that summer grooming session. I hope... it's so weird, though.


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## Jmacdo

cowpony said:


> Since some of these episodes happened after grooming, I wonder if a mild burn might be a contributing factor. Maybe some dogs get a light sunburn from going outside too long with winter pale skin and newly short hair.





Copper+Scout said:


> Glad to have found this discussion and have a bit of a curve ball to add... Our blond, 4 year old F1B mini golden doodle started presenting the similar darker hair patches down her back a couple months ago, starting with a small smooth/bald spot and then the dark, coarse red hair growing down her spine in patches. Very similar to what many of you have described and pictures you have shown. Went through the steps of visiting (stumped) vet, google searches, etc. Have a Derm appt scheduled for her in late Nov (first available). Skin healthy, acting normal, vet not concerned. We chalked it up to the bruise theory... playing rough with our other dog/always crawling under the bed at night despite being a bit too large to do so, etc. Didn't feel too concerned once our well-regarded Vet did not seem concerned.
> 
> A month later, our 7 year old F1B medium golden doodle (same breeder in IL, but different parents) started presenting with the SAME COAT CHANGE! That's when I got really confused! They eat different diets. Both have taken heartgard/nexgard their whole lives. Made me feel both better and worse to see it pop up on our older dog a little later. Felt more comforted that younger dog prob didn't have some horrible disease, but maybe they were passing some sort of infection to one another!? Skin on both dogs looks totally healthy and normal. They do play pretty hard, but have done so for year... The ONLY thing that I can make sense of is the grooming theory. I had them both clipped down shorter than normal in July before heading on a long road trip to the beach for a couple weeks (foggy Oregon Coast beach, but still beach). Maybe combo of short clipping, plus sun exposure started some sort of follicle change!? I have not had them tested for Cushings or other autoimmune diseases yet, but my gut tells me this must be tied to that summer grooming session. I hope... it's so weird, though.


So I took oscAr to the vet dermotologist for his large dark patch on his right hind leg and he seemed to think this was the result of a spider bite or a sunburn or grooming incident - some kind of hair follicle trauma that impacted a much larger area. He said I should get him tested for cushings but he didn’t think it was this. So I’m going to wait it out and it seems to have slowed down spreading considerably. He did give him some small dose of pentoxifyline to help with itching and inflammation but it doesn’t really seem to be doing too much over past 2 weeks so will keep it up for 2 more weeks as at least the dark patch is not spreading and seems to not be bothering him.


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## Rose n Poos

Jmacdo said:


> So I took oscAr to the vet dermotologist for his large dark patch on his right hind leg and he seemed to think this was the result of a spider bite or a sunburn or grooming incident - some kind of hair follicle trauma that impacted a much larger area. He said I should get him tested for cushings but he didn’t think it was this. So I’m going to wait it out and it seems to have slowed down spreading considerably. He did give him some small dose of pentoxifyline to help with itching and inflammation but it doesn’t really seem to be doing too much over past 2 weeks so will keep it up for 2 more weeks as at least the dark patch is not spreading and seems to not be bothering him.


Sounds like another probable vote for " unexplained-in-almost-all-cases reason for the "insult" to the hair follicles which seem to cause a long-term but otherwise cosmetic only change after the original cause. "


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## SableK

I am in the same boat and have read every entry here. My 4 yr old white toy poodle started with a small brown patch near her tail, in July and it is now running down her spine. I had bloodwork done and all is good. She has eaten the same food for 4 years (I make it using Just Food For Dogs DIY and organic food) and takes Simparica for fleas. No doggie door, no injury, no fur loss nor skin discoloration and it doesn't bother her one bit. Thankfully I am going to a skin/allergy specialist Tues but I do feel that this might just be a normal poodle oddity. I thought it could be from laying in the sun, however, I bought a 45 spf t-shirt and put it on her every time she goes out. The brown spots have increased, so I don't think it's the sun. My 1st toy poodle had a similar patch of odd brown coarse fur but it was the size on a nickel and on her side. Never could figure out what it was and it would come and go over the years. I ignored it after vet said not to worry since it was such small patch.

SableK


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## zlrenner

Yet another case in our 8y/o mini apricot: brown, less dense but coarse/wiry spots along the spine, exactly like other photos here. No obvious discomfort whatsoever.

Started a couple weeks after grooming, but also around that time she had an unrelated abscess that needed antibiotics. My guess is that a combination of some grooming insult and her immune system fighting something else off probably triggered it. Oddly she also had excessive thirst/urination during the abscess and antibiotics which seemed concerning for cushings or other issues, but that completely resolved since. Haven't seen the vet yet about it.


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## Rose n Poos

Changing my search terms to "poodle hair on back changed color after grooming" resulted in this:

_"Damage to hair follicles from a previous injury may also cause coat color changes in dogs, explains veterinarian Dr. Loretta. In the areas of previous trauma such as a surgical incision site, a clipper burn or even a hot spot, the hair may therefore grow darker in color. 

This occurs because cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, explains Sandy Blackburn in the book: "The Everything Dog Grooming Book." "_

Why Do Dogs' Fur Change Color? - Dog Discoveries

Don't know anything about this site but it's the first explanation that goes beyond the possible exterior cause to offer a medical reason for the change. 



Basically the same info here

*Fur Color Change Due to Injury or Surgery*

_"Another potential cause of color change is traumatic injury or surgery. When dogs heal from a skin wound, often the fur that regrows during healing is darker than the original color. This occurs because melanin surges to the site to heal and repair the lost tissue. The result is hyperpigmented fur in the affected area. Note this type of hyperpigmentation only affects the area affected by trauma, not the animal’s full coat. 

Clipping or shaving a dog’s coat can also result in color changes, and groomers often caution their clients that long-term grooming can result in a change in pigmentation affecting your pet’s coat over time."_

Why Does My Dog’s Fur Change Color? (figopetinsurance.com)

This may not explain all these occurrences but it offers some (already known) causes, the visible effect as seen in all these pups, and a medical explanation of how the effect comes to be. 

This feels like getting somewhere.


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## SableK

If anyone is curious - I went to see a skin/allergy specialist, Dr Richmand at Veterinary Skin and ear in Los Angeles, today and he said he has seen more and more of this condition in the past 4 years. He has been in touch with other vets across the world and it seems to be more common in the sunnier places he has contacted - Australia, Florida, etc. He showed me pictures of several of his patients all with varying degree of discoloration and feels that since Sable's blood work and actual skin are completely normal that this is a genetic (most common in poodle/poodle mixes) /solar induced follicle dysplasia. He feels it will change back to her normal fur by next year however, no guarantees and he still says there is a lot of exploration still to learn about this since it seems to be a relatively new development in the dogs in the last 4 years. I feel very confident in this diagnosis and will continue to give put a shirt on her when she goes to lay int he sun Other than that - keep her on a probiotic and just watch and wait. Also, he recommended to NOT do a biopsy and that he wouldn't do it on his own dog since her skin itself was completely normal. He did look at her hair follicles under a scope but that was all. Pic 1 was from July 27th and the 2nd pic Oct 14th. Grew quickly but it was also a very sunny/hot time of year.
















Hope this helps others.


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## Rose n Poos

Good news that you got an all clear from the specialist. The suspicion of sun exposure sounds plausible as an external source but the sun has been around for a bit more than 4 years so, as mentioned, there's a long way to go before that's proven. 

It definitely can't hurt to reduce exposure as you're doing.


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## Nic844

Wanted to bring up the doggie door possibility again? How many people seeing this along their dogs’ back have a doggie door? We are seriously considering maybe getting a bigger doggie door if this is possibly related to where his back rubs on the door when he goes in and out. But again, he doesn’t seem uncomfortable at all. We also just got him groomed and now there is way more discoloration we can see


----------



## SableK

Nic844 said:


> Wanted to bring up the doggie door possibility again? How many people seeing this along their dogs’ back have a doggie door? We are seriously considering maybe getting a bigger doggie door if this is possibly related to where his back rubs on the door when he goes in and out. But again, he doesn’t seem uncomfortable at all. We also just got him groomed and now there is way more discoloration we can see


Your dog has the same discoloring as mine and I don't have a doggie door. The vet I saw last week warned me that my dogs discoloration would be more noticeable after a haircut - which it was. Her longer white hair blended better with the brown spots when it was longer.


----------



## Claire567890

Toast522 said:


> Hello,
> My 2 year old mini golden doodle has recently developed a patch of coarse fur on her back. It’s darker than the rest of her fur.
> 
> It doesn’t seem to cause her pain and she doesn’t appear to try to itch it. It doesn’t seem to bother her, even when I try to look at it.
> 
> She has no known injury, she is up to date on all her shots (but she hasn’t had any for about 8 months- she will be due again soon though), she hasn’t had fleas, takes her heart worm medication, etc. The skin underneath looks normal and healthy.
> 
> It did start to show up after a grooming appointment she had a week and a half ago, but I don’t know if there is any correlation to that.
> 
> We have a vet appointment coming up in a few days to hopefully get some answers.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this? The second picture is of her dark spot - it’s on her back. The third photo is of her from just a couple weeks prior, with no dark spot. Thanks!
> View attachment 478432
> T
> View attachment 478430
> View attachment 478431


Hi there, how has the skin condition that Toast has experienced developed over the last couple months? Our dog has exactly the same thing.


----------



## Claire567890

Is this skin condition treatable or self limiting or does it just get worse and worse? This is our dogs back, it has spread over the span of just a couple of days. It has changed colour and texture.


----------



## Rose n Poos

Hi and Welcome to PF!

Have you read thru the entire thread or only the first few posts?

Of those who have gone to a vet or vet dermatologist, the general consensus is that it's a cosmetic condition, attributed to an external "insult" or "injury" to the skin which usually only temporarily causes the change. If the external cause doesn't recur, the coat usually returns to it's previous color, although it does take time, sometimes months.

The "insult" or "injury" to the skin, more specifically, the hair follicles, can be sunburn, insect bite, grooming, repeated grazing of the coat, anything that might affect the follicles.

Reading the whole thread will give you more info and more context but here's the Cliffs Notes:


I'm not answering for Toast522 but I'm not sure if you've read thru the whole thread, or at least the last post from them.
So far, no member posting has had any vet diagnose a medical condition beyond the unexplained-in-almost-all-cases reason for the "insult" to the hair follicles which seem to cause a long-term but otherwise cosmetic only change after the original cause.

There are some medical conditions that might present similar appearance but in practically every instance posted here, the skin is unaffected but the hair/fur is.

It's always worth it to check with your vet to ease your mind but it's unlikely to be anything that requires treatment, just time.



Changing my search terms to "poodle hair on back changed color after grooming" resulted in this:

_"Damage to hair follicles from a previous injury may also cause coat color changes in dogs, explains veterinarian Dr. Loretta. In the areas of previous trauma such as a surgical incision site, a clipper burn or even a hot spot, the hair may therefore grow darker in color. 

This occurs because cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, explains Sandy Blackburn in the book: "The Everything Dog Grooming Book." "_

Why Do Dogs' Fur Change Color? - Dog Discoveries

Don't know anything about this site but it's the first explanation that goes beyond the possible exterior cause to offer a medical reason for the change.



Basically the same info here

*Fur Color Change Due to Injury or Surgery*

_"Another potential cause of color change is traumatic injury or surgery. When dogs heal from a skin wound, often the fur that regrows during healing is darker than the original color. This occurs because melanin surges to the site to heal and repair the lost tissue. The result is hyperpigmented fur in the affected area. Note this type of hyperpigmentation only affects the area affected by trauma, not the animal’s full coat. 

Clipping or shaving a dog’s coat can also result in color changes, and groomers often caution their clients that long-term grooming can result in a change in pigmentation affecting your pet’s coat over time."_

Why Does My Dog’s Fur Change Color? (figopetinsurance.com)

This may not explain all these occurrences but it offers some (already known) causes, the visible effect as seen in all these pups, and a medical explanation of how the effect comes to be.

This feels like getting somewhere.


----------



## Claire567890

Hi, thank you so much for an excellent response. I really appreciate it.


Unfortunately, our dog hasn’t had an incident or trauma. This occurred in a small spot a couple days ago and has rapidly spread and now extends halfway up her back. Despite steroids and antibiotics, it is still spreading.


And it wasn’t the groomers because she had this skin condition before it.


----------



## Claire567890

It was like her hair follicles pushed out her normal hair and replaced it with darker and coarser hair. The darker hair was already there when the normal hair fell out.

The last three photos are from before her hair cut. While, the first one is afterwards.


----------



## Rose n Poos

The cause doesn't have to be what one would typically think of as an injury. It can be as simple as having a habit of rubbing the back under the edge of a table, or something else that isn't thought of as an injury.

I'm not quite following the timeline here


Claire567890 said:


> it wasn’t the groomers because she had this skin condition before it.





Claire567890 said:


> This occurred in a small spot a couple days ago and has rapidly spread and now extends halfway up her back.


If this was only a small spot a couple of days ago, when did the vet see her? If this is something that can be treated by steroids and antibiotics, it will take more time to make a difference. What does the vet say that they're treating since steroids and antibiotics were prescribed?

Is it possible that what you see as "spreading" is simply the color-changed hair which was already there being more noticeable after the clipping? Are you measuring or taking daily photos to record the course of the change?

Whatever caused the change could have happened days or more before it was noticeable.



Claire567890 said:


> It was like her hair follicles pushed out her normal hair and replaced it with darker and coarser hair. The darker hair was already there when the normal hair fell out.


Poodle coat is a continuous growth, like human hair, so the color change happens when _cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, _ The change becomes noticeable as the hair growth shows the results of the melanin and will stay that way until the effects of the melanin leave her system, at which time the prior color and texture should resume growing in.

As a different example of a trauma, one of our members silver poodle was stung by a bee and she developed black fur of a different texture at the site which took months to revert to her adult color.



Skylar said:


> I have a silver minipoo. She got a bee sting. I was shocked and saddened to see, when I clipped her a week later, that she had a patch of alopecia where the bee had bitten her. All her light silver hair had fallen out leaving a pea size area of black skin. About a month later I realized her hair was growing in inky black. Over several months her hair slowly grew back light silver. Every time her skin is scratched by a thorn or she gets a bug bite her hair temporarily turns black. Other dogs can have this same response.


Of course a bee sting or a thorn would likely show a smaller area of the melanin effect but it seems that the effect you're seeing is caused by something that covered more area, like sunburn, brushing a bit too hard, rubbing the back on something, things like that, unless your vet has given a diagnosis of something beyond a cosmetic effect from the melanin.


----------



## Claire567890

Hi again, 
It has been a month and our dog’s course hair patch seems to be slowly spreading. The course darker hair has gotten wider. There is also a small margin of baldness around the darker, course hair patch.







8th of December







15th of January
Does anyone have any suggestions on what we should do? The vet had no idea.


----------



## Misteline

Claire567890 said:


> Hi again,
> It has been a month and our dog’s course hair patch seems to be slowly spreading. The course darker hair has gotten wider. There is also a small margin of baldness around the darker, course hair patch.
> View attachment 487132
> 8th of December
> View attachment 487134
> 15th of January
> Does anyone have any suggestions on what we should do? The vet had no idea.


The pattern actually looks the same to me, just looks like it's growing out. If it's similar to most poodles then it's just going to take time over multiple grooms before it clears to the same color as the rest of the dog. I'm not noticing any baldness in the second picture and in the first it looks more like the dog was just shaved too closely or something, which could be part of what caused the change in the first place.

Of course I only have the pictures to go by and what you can see and feel while actually in contact with the dog may be different.


----------



## miwkeini

Toast522 said:


> Hello,
> My 2 year old mini golden doodle has recently developed a patch of coarse fur on her back. It’s darker than the rest of her fur.
> 
> It doesn’t seem to cause her pain and she doesn’t appear to try to itch it. It doesn’t seem to bother her, even when I try to look at it.
> 
> She has no known injury, she is up to date on all her shots (but she hasn’t had any for about 8 months- she will be due again soon though), she hasn’t had fleas, takes her heart worm medication, etc. The skin underneath looks normal and healthy.
> 
> It did start to show up after a grooming appointment she had a week and a half ago, but I don’t know if there is any correlation to that.
> 
> We have a vet appointment coming up in a few days to hopefully get some answers.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this? The second picture is of her dark spot - it’s on her back. The third photo is of her from just a couple weeks prior, with no dark spot. Thanks!
> View attachment 478432
> T
> View attachment 478430
> View attachment 478431
> 
> applinked


I have also experiences the same. Dont know what to do.


----------



## Rose n Poos

miwkeini said:


> I have also experiences the same. Dont know what to do.


Hi and Welcome!

Have you read thru the entire thread? It will be helpful to you.

TLDR...

No one's vet has indicated any actual medical condition that requires any treatment. Still, there are some other skin conditions that look similar so always wise to have your vet look it over. 

Generally what happens is that some irritation or injury damages the hair follicles, with skin possibly involved too. 

"Poodle coat is a continuous growth, like human hair, so the color change happens when _cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, _The change becomes noticeable as the hair growth shows the results of the melanin and will stay that way until the effects of the melanin leave her system, at which time the prior color and texture should resume growing in.

As a different example of a trauma, one of our members silver poodle was stung by a bee and she developed black fur of a different texture at the site which took months to revert to her adult color.



> Skylar said:
> I have a silver minipoo. She got a bee sting. I was shocked and saddened to see, when I clipped her a week later, that she had a patch of alopecia where the bee had bitten her. All her light silver hair had fallen out leaving a pea size area of black skin. About a month later I realized her hair was growing in inky black. Over several months her hair slowly grew back light silver. Every time her skin is scratched by a thorn or she gets a bug bite her hair temporarily turns black. Other dogs can have this same response.


Of course a bee sting or a thorn would likely show a smaller area of the melanin effect but it seems that the effect you're seeing is caused by something that covered more area, like sunburn, brushing a bit too hard, rubbing the back on something, things like that, unless your vet has given a diagnosis of something beyond a cosmetic effect from the melanin."


----------



## bowsers_mommydoodle

I have found something that may be an answer to all of our questions! what these dogs may have is a skin disorder called Canine Recurrent Flank Alopecia! I found it while researching what may be wrong with my standard Goldendoodle, Bowser. I hope this helps!


----------



## Taylormakall

This happened to my 4 year old goldendoodle in 2020. It lasted an entire year and then just disappeared as fast as it happened, it was down his whole back. He is an f1b, 75% poodle 25% golden retriever. We had blood work and everything done with no answers. I concluded it came from a too short hair cut and he got “shave sock”. But the other day I found a quarter size patch of dark hair on his leg.


----------



## Rose n Poos

There's a possibility that the new spot developed as some others have, possibly an insect bite, or a scrape, something like that.


----------



## kristianimari

My goldendoodle is 3 and I experienced the same thing with her after her last grooming appointment! I took her to the vet and they didn’t say much, just gave me a conditioning spray and sent me home. It doesn’t bother her but I have been looking high and low at what it could be. This is what it looks like now a month after her grooming appointment


----------



## psudek

Hello all, 

I was reading most of this thread with interest as our shi-poo developed similar patches on her spine. It also does not bother her at all nor does it looks like she experiences hair loss. The only thing is that it looks like the hair is growing slower/less dense.

After reading this thread I see the similarity that our dog started to show these patches also after a grooming appointment.

So we assume that it also comes from this or from playing with our other dog which might have caused some skin irritations now that her hair is much shorter.


----------



## Rose n Poos

Thanks for adding to the thread!  The only thing I'll repeat is that it never hurts to check with your vet, especially if your little girl is acting bothered by it.


----------



## RosieCookie

Angel 88 said:


> Thank you so much . I’m glad it’s growing back foe you. Please keep me updated and new pics would be great…


Hi there! I came across your post as I’m going through the same thing with my maltipoo. I wanted to see if you had any updates on Toast as we are trying to figure out what is going on with our Rosie. Our vet did blood work and it came back normal and is treating it with an anti fungal/antibiotic. The skin is not infected Or inflamed and there is short dark fur under the patch. Any advice and/or updates would be so helpful thank you!


----------



## Rose n Poos

Hi and Welcome!

Have you read thru the entire thread? It could be helpful to you to see so many experiencing the same/similar cosmetic issue.

I'm not answering for the OP, Toast522, or Angel 88 but I've been involved in this and other similar threads.

So far, no member posting has had any vet diagnose a medical condition beyond the unexplained-in-almost-all-cases reason for the "insult" to the hair follicles which seem to cause a long-term but otherwise cosmetic only change after the original cause.

There are some medical conditions that might present similar appearance but in practically every instance posted here, the skin is unaffected, but the hair/fur is.

It's always worth it to check with your vet to ease your mind but it's unlikely to be anything that requires treatment, just time.

TLDR...

No one's vet has indicated any actual medical condition that requires any treatment. Still, there are some other skin conditions that look similar so always wise to have your vet look it over.

Generally what happens is that some irritation or injury damages the hair follicles, with skin possibly involved too.

"Poodle coat is a continuous growth, like human hair, so the color change happens when _cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, _The change becomes noticeable as the hair growth shows the results of the melanin and will stay that way until the effects of the melanin leave her system, at which time the prior color and texture should resume growing in."

_"Damage to hair follicles from a previous injury may also cause coat color changes in dogs, explains veterinarian Dr. Loretta. In the areas of previous trauma such as a surgical incision site, a clipper burn or even a hot spot, the hair may therefore grow darker in color.

This occurs because cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, explains Sandy Blackburn in the book: "The Everything Dog Grooming Book." "_

Why Do Dogs' Fur Change Color? - Dog Discoveries

_"Another potential cause of color change is traumatic injury or surgery. When dogs heal from a skin wound, often the fur that regrows during healing is darker than the original color. This occurs because melanin surges to the site to heal and repair the lost tissue. The result is hyperpigmented fur in the affected area. Note this type of hyperpigmentation only affects the area affected by trauma, not the animal’s full coat.

Clipping or shaving a dog’s coat can also result in color changes, and groomers often caution their clients that long-term grooming can result in a change in pigmentation affecting your pet’s coat over time."_

Why Does My Dog’s Fur Change Color? (figopetinsurance.com)

As a different example of a trauma, one of our members silver poodle was stung by a bee and she developed black fur of a different texture at the site which took months to revert to her adult color.



> Skylar said:
> I have a silver minipoo. She got a bee sting. I was shocked and saddened to see, when I clipped her a week later, that she had a patch of alopecia where the bee had bitten her. All her light silver hair had fallen out leaving a pea size area of black skin. About a month later I realized her hair was growing in inky black. Over several months her hair slowly grew back light silver. Every time her skin is scratched by a thorn or she gets a bug bite her hair temporarily turns black. Other dogs can have this same response.


Of course a bee sting or a thorn would likely show a smaller area of the melanin effect, but it seems that the effect you're seeing is caused by something that covered more area, like sunburn, brushing a bit too hard, rubbing the back on something, things like that, unless your vet has given a diagnosis of something beyond a cosmetic effect.

If your vet isn't finding anything of concern, you might consider seeing a veterinary dermatologist. They should be able to determine the reason for the change. It's always possible that there is some skin or other condition in play that would require some kind of treatment but most likely this is a cosmetic response not requiring any treatment, just time.


----------



## Jessicajlm

My 2 year old F1b micro mini Bernedoodle had the same thing pop up. Her vet is currently treating with antibiotics, but also said it was odd that it's not irritated and the skin looks healthy. We will go for a follow up in 2 weeks, but so glad to find others who look similar with no issue other than cosmetic. This thread has helped my nerves


----------



## Rose n Poos

Jessicajlm said:


> This thread has helped my nerves


Since you've reviewed the thread, just keep in mind that it might take months for the melanin effect to grow out. 

If your vet is one you have a good relationship with, ask if they'd consider looking over the photos on this thread at least, to see if they get a better sense by seeing other's. 

There're other threads on this topic as well but this is the longest running with the most responses.


----------



## cowpony

I've pinned this thread because it seems to have been helpful to many people who own light colored poodles and doodles.


----------



## Pavie

Some links I found related to post clipping alopecia (common when shaving double coated dogs):



https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-clipping_Alopezie











Post Clipping Alopecia in Dogs - Symptoms, Causes, Diagnosis, Treatment, Recovery, Management, Cost


When your dog’s dense hair coat is shaved, it may grow back thin, patchy, and a different texture, altering his natural heating and cooling system.



wagwalking.com










Postclipping alopecia


With an overall healthy dog and the history of clipping and lack of hair regrowth at the surgical or catheter sites the diagnosis of postclipping alopecia is straightforward. It has historically been suggested that evaluation of blood, urine, and hormone levels, in addition to skin biopsy should...




animalallergycolorado.com













Post Clipping Alopecia (Coat Funk)


NEWSFLASH……’The UK is hotter than the Costa Brava’…. ‘Heatwave hits the UK’ ….’Hottest Summer in 5 years’.These aren’t new headlines, in fact I guarantee that they will appear in a newspaper or heading an online article at some point this year. So when these headlines hit, its only natural to...




thegroomersspotlight.com










Shaving coats that should not be shaved. — Dominique's Dog Grooming







www.dominiquesdoggrooming.com










Hair Loss in Pets (Alopecia)







www.mspca.org


----------



## FozzieBearDoodle2017

Appreciate everyone's feedback on this post.  It sounds like it is a benign condition. Has anyone seen the problem resolve? My doodle, Fozzie, has had this for about 3 months. It has spread from a small spot, up his back, but he doesn't seem to be bothered (itchy or otherwise). He doesn't use a dog door or have any other trauma to this spot on his back. Though, not sure what other people's dogs do, he does lay belly-up half of the day. His walking harness does not cover/touch this area.


----------



## FozzieBearDoodle2017

So here is my new hypothesis from reading everyones great info on this thread. Is your dog a back sleeper (belly up)? People have mentioned their vets and dermatologists not seeing any specific problem, and the mention of physical contact (like scraping their back on a dog door). Fozzie doesn't use his dog door, but he does sleep on his back about 1/4 or the day and night. Also the area seems to be directly on his spine, which is where his fur would be rubbing against the floor/couch/bed. Also this just started a couple months ago, and its just getting to summer heat. I hear that some dogs are more comfortable sleeping on their backs (more submissive, less protective instinct) and it also helps them stay a bit cooler. 

Was wondering if other people Golden Doodles who are also having this problem are also big back sleepers, and maybe its just the physical rubbing of their spine/fur?


----------



## 94Magna_Tom

@FozzieBearDoodle2017 
Have you started using a different shampoo? Different groomer? 
I think some have traced this back to the application of the full strength shampoo down the middle of the spine.


----------



## FozzieBearDoodle2017

94Magna_Tom said:


> @FozzieBearDoodle2017
> Have you started using a different shampoo? Different groomer?
> I think some have traced this back to the application of the full strength shampoo down the middle of the spine.


Good question, no, I've been using the same shampoo on him for 2+ years.


----------



## Ivydoodle

My mini golden doodle is 4 years old and has the same spot. She was at the vet and they said there was nothing to worry about but still wondering what caused it and if anything we can do such as change of diet etc. Or if it will grow back. Any feedback would be appreciated!


----------



## Ivydoodle

ChristyLou said:


> Our 2-year old mini-goldendoodle, Baxter, has a similar spot on his back. First I noticed a clump of hair fell out and the skin was very smooth. A little more hair fell out, and now it is growing back redder and coarser than the rest of his hair. His vet didn't know what it was. Took him to a dog dermitologist, spent hundreds, but no conclusion or diagnosis there either. He otherwise seems healthy, so I guess we shouldn't worry. It's interesting to see that other mini-doods have the same issue.
> View attachment 481977
> View attachment 481978
> View attachment 481979


----------



## Ivydoodle

Thank you for getting back to me yes it is just so odd and crazy but the good thing is it does not seem to bother her. Definitely coarse her hair but does it grow long like the rest of the hair and how long did it take to grow back?


----------



## lisa2112

Hi all,
Just sharing:
My 4 year old golden doodle has just developed a patch on her spine. 
I have come to the conclusion it is from grooming and possibly sun damage (we live in AZ). The hair on her spine is falling out and a darker hair color is growing in. I believe the hair follicles have suffered damage?.. which has changed this portion of the incoming hair on part of her body. 
No itching, hair is not greasy, no dandruff. She does not seem phased by the area and doesn't pay it any attention.
We have used the same food and treats for 10 + months. We have used the same shampoo for 2 + years. Up to date on all vaccines, takes her monthly heart worm and flea medicine every month (have been doing this for about 3 years).
-- I met a woman in my complex with a mini doodle with 2 different types of coats. The top of the doodle had much more of a coarser and darker hair while the legs, head and chest had a golden fluffier coat. When asked- the woman stated the hair grew in like this after she brought her dog to be groomed at Petco and it has never been the same since.


----------



## Ivydoodle

It is so interesting all the different responses and perspectives from my vet even stating that it’s the golden retriever part coming out of the doodle and my breeder said that it’s from the doggie door where they keep rubbing their back against the metal frame so it’s kind of crazy I do know it does not bother her whatsoever and that’s a big thing that there’s no health concerns but nonetheless it’s very strange


----------



## Luqjeff

Hi all, I read about 70% of the comments on here. My 8 months old miniature poodle female “Mia” is having similar condition. Here are the pictures
























I took her to the vet today, and vet is looking to do a biopsy just like what everyone in here is experiencing. Same thing no itchy no bruises seem like she is completely don’t know her back is like this. The hair that’s on those discolored part or rough and straight, but it wasn’t like this before… 
Do you guys think I need to go with the Biopsy? Seem like everyone’s test came back negative. Don’t want her to go through surgery at 8 months old 

thanks everyone


----------



## Ivydoodle

Well as long as she’s feeling fine I would not put too much money into tests etc. as everyone I know including the vet saysthere’s absolutely nothing to worry about I’ve heard a couple different explanations… my vet spoke to a dermatologist and he seems to think it’s the golden retriever in her that’s coming out and the breeder thought it may be from the doggie door. Nonetheless I know it looks funny and very odd but at least in my situation does not appear to be any medical condition and certainly does not bother my dog. I also heard that I could go back to the same or it may end up dark but it could change a couple times a year. Mine is a mini golden doodle


----------



## Luqjeff

She is also not peeing on time, she holds up her pee up to 12-16 hours…. And she also shaking a lot, we are doing ultra sound for it… I just hope this skin/fur condition is not relating to peeing problem


----------



## Ivydoodle

Yes sounds like your situation is different than my dog always good to get things checked out better to be safe than sorry good luck


----------



## Rose n Poos

Luqjeff said:


> She is also not peeing on time, she holds up her pee up to 12-16 hours…. And she also shaking a lot, we are doing ultra sound for it… I just hope this skin/fur condition is not relating to peeing problem


It seems unlikely that they're related but the urinary issues definitely need to be identified and treated. I expect that the vet ran a urinalysis, checking for UTI. I also assume that the ultrasound is to look for stones or other issues. Shaking can be a sign of pain so don't wait on that longer than necessary.
Blood work to check liver, kidney, and thyroid levels might help with a diagnosis.

Has she had her first heat yet?

Is the biopsy that the vet referred to skin scrapings? Did they say if they suspected anything in particular?


----------



## Luqjeff

Rose n Poos said:


> It seems unlikely that they're related but the urinary issues definitely need to be identified and treated. I expect that the vet ran a urinalysis, checking for UTI. I also assume that the ultrasound is to look for stones or other issues. Shaking can be a sign of pain so don't wait on that longer than necessary.
> Blood work to check liver, kidney, and thyroid levels might help with a diagnosis.
> 
> Has she had her first heat yet?
> 
> Is the biopsy that the vet referred to skin scrapings? Did they say if they suspected anything in particular?


The biopsy is for the skin, they have no idea what it is.. so they want to do a biapsy to confirm the discolor and rough fur 

they didn’t suspect anything, the whole appointment seem pointless kinda.

I told them about the urination problem, the only thing They suggested is to get the ultrasound, andno UTI testing.
he uses his finger to touch all over her and she doesn’t seem like in pain anywhere he touches.

she hasn’t get her first heat yet, I was wondering if that might cause her to hold her pee longer, but after reading about it, seem like they should go more often instead… I think I kinda taugh her to go pee in demand, and she seems to understand when I say go “pee pee” but every time she goes into a squat she stands back up like its coming but not able to pee…


----------



## Rose n Poos

I'm not medically trained, to make sure that you know this, but I'd follow up on the urinary troubles first. Request a urinalysis, request the blood work and see if that suggests anything treatable on that front.
It seems unusual to go directly for an ultrasound without the various labs first.

Request that your vet just look at the pictures in this thread. That will take only a few moments and may be useful to see a number of similar pictures.


----------



## Luqjeff

Rose n Poos said:


> I'm not medically trained, to make sure that you know this, but I'd follow up on the urinary troubles first. Request a urinalysis, request the blood work and see if that suggests anything treatable on that front.
> It seems unusual to go directly for an ultrasound without the various labs first.
> 
> Request that your vet just look at the pictures in this thread. That will take only a few moments and may be useful to see a number of similar pictures.


got it thank you, I will call them tomorrow to cancel the biopsy first, because she looking like the same problem everyone else having on this post.
I will ask them about the urinalysis testing tomorrow and let you know what they suggest.
So from what I am understanding, her back most likely will get better eventually in a year or more correct? Is it a genetic problem?


----------



## Rose n Poos

You mentioned that you've read thru most of the thread, but maybe not this:

"So far, no member posting has had any vet diagnose a medical condition beyond the unexplained-in-almost-all-cases reason for the "insult" to the hair follicles which seem to cause a long-term but otherwise cosmetic only change after the original cause.

There are some medical conditions that might present similar appearance but in practically every instance posted here, the skin is unaffected, but the hair/fur is.

It's always worth it to check with your vet to ease your mind but it's unlikely to be anything that requires treatment, just time.

TLDR...

No one's vet has indicated any actual medical condition that requires any treatment. Still, there are some other skin conditions that look similar so always wise to have your vet look it over.

Generally what happens is that some irritation or injury damages the hair follicles, with skin possibly involved too.

"Poodle coat is a continuous growth, like human hair, so the color change happens when _cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, _The change becomes noticeable as the hair growth shows the results of the melanin and will stay that way until the effects of the melanin leave her system, at which time the prior color and texture should resume growing in."

_"Damage to hair follicles from a previous injury may also cause coat color changes in dogs, explains veterinarian Dr. Loretta. In the areas of previous trauma such as a surgical incision site, a clipper burn or even a hot spot, the hair may therefore grow darker in color.

This occurs because cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, explains Sandy Blackburn in the book: "The Everything Dog Grooming Book." "_

Why Do Dogs' Fur Change Color? - Dog Discoveries

_"Another potential cause of color change is traumatic injury or surgery. When dogs heal from a skin wound, often the fur that regrows during healing is darker than the original color. This occurs because melanin surges to the site to heal and repair the lost tissue. The result is hyperpigmented fur in the affected area. Note this type of hyperpigmentation only affects the area affected by trauma, not the animal’s full coat.

Clipping or shaving a dog’s coat can also result in color changes, and groomers often caution their clients that long-term grooming can result in a change in pigmentation affecting your pet’s coat over time."_

Why Does My Dog’s Fur Change Color? (figopetinsurance.com)

As a different example of a trauma, one of our members silver poodle was stung by a bee and she developed black fur of a different texture at the site which took months to revert to her adult color.



> Skylar said:
> I have a silver minipoo. She got a bee sting. I was shocked and saddened to see, when I clipped her a week later, that she had a patch of alopecia where the bee had bitten her. All her light silver hair had fallen out leaving a pea size area of black skin. About a month later I realized her hair was growing in inky black. Over several months her hair slowly grew back light silver. Every time her skin is scratched by a thorn or she gets a bug bite her hair temporarily turns black. Other dogs can have this same response.


Of course a bee sting or a thorn would likely show a smaller area of the melanin effect, but it seems that the effect you're seeing is caused by something that covered more area, like sunburn, brushing a bit too hard, rubbing the back on something, things like that, unless your vet has given a diagnosis of something beyond a cosmetic effect."

If her coat changes are caused by an external irritation or injury, as most if not all of these seem to have been, then it will take some months for her coat to grow back in as it was. 

I wouldn't call this a genetic "health" issue. It seems to be a physical reaction to an external source. 

I'm not saying don't follow up but the urinary issue seems to be the priority at this time.


----------



## Rose n Poos

Ask the vet if they were going to do skin scrapings and a punch biopsy, and what were they hoping to rule out by doing those? Ask if they're thinking sebaceous adenitis.

There's a longish recent thread on that, but SA looks pretty different from any of the photos thru this thread. Has your girl had hair loss with this? I assume the shavedown was intentional. 
SA isn't usually something that happens with miniatures. 
(8) Sebaceous adenitis | Poodle Forum


----------



## Rose n Poos

Almost forgot to ask, when did you first notice the discoloration and texture changes in her coat and when did she stop peeing normally? 

And what's your girl's name?


----------



## Luqjeff

Rose n Poos said:


> Ask the vet if they were going to do skin scrapings and a punch biopsy, and what were they hoping to rule out by doing those? Ask if they're thinking sebaceous adenitis.
> 
> There's a longish recent thread on that, but SA looks pretty different from any of the photos thru this thread. Has your girl had hair loss with this? I assume the shavedown was intentional.
> SA isn't usually something that happens with miniatures.
> (8) Sebaceous adenitis | Poodle Forum


Yes the shavedown was intentional to see what happened to the area that’s not growing hair. I don’t think she is losing hair, the first time I groom her when she was about 4 months old I left about 2 inches of fur on her, she was okay, then I did a bad job so about a month later I shaved her again completely, and this when the hair grow back I just noticed those spots are now growing and the hair are just thick and not the same texture as her other fur like pincher’s fur(rough).

I will call the vet today about those things you mention.

thanks


----------



## Luqjeff

Rose n Poos said:


> Almost forgot to ask, when did you first notice the discoloration and texture changes in her coat and when did she stop peeing normally?
> 
> And what's your girl's name?


her name is Mia, I start noticing about a months ago and I shaved her Friday last week. Her peeing problem start showing about maybe a month or two, it first starts where she takes longer to go and about 3 weeks ago where she takes longer and longer time that she needs to pee


----------



## Luqjeff

Rose n Poos said:


> Ask the vet if they were going to do skin scrapings and a punch biopsy, and what were they hoping to rule out by doing those? Ask if they're thinking sebaceous adenitis.
> 
> There's a longish recent thread on that, but SA looks pretty different from any of the photos thru this thread. Has your girl had hair loss with this? I assume the shavedown was intentional.
> SA isn't usually something that happens with miniatures.
> (8) Sebaceous adenitis | Poodle Forum


I called and wanting to put on hold for the biopsy, and they said that they will have no idea until they do the biopsy to find out what cause the spread.
As for the ultrasound, they said without doing the ultrasound they can’t obtain the urine to understand what cost the peeing problem.. seem like they won’t do anything else but these two


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## Rose n Poos

I would be happy but extremely surprised if a biopsy yields a diagnosis of the coat issue in light of the results of the others here.
As for the ultrasound being needed to obtain urine, this sounds like a miscommunication.
Ultrasound is imaging, it doesn't have a physical effect.
There is a procedure, lithotripsy, that uses sound waves to break up stones in bladder or kidneys but it's not done without a diagnosis first.
How did they come to the diagnosis that there are stones if no tests have been done? I am really not understanding why they haven't requested a urine sample to test or taken one themselves at the clinic. Especially since you said that they were not concerned about this issue. It's not tracking. 
I'm going to suggest that you post a separate thread in this Health forum on Mia's urinary issues.
You'll get more input from members who may have had similar issues.
Not being there to hear the conversations between you and the vet, based on what you've said here, I am wondering strongly what the vet meant and why they don't think a urinalysis at the least is in order.


----------



## Rose n Poos

I don't want to shake your confidence in this vet if you trust them and have a good, established relationship, but based just on what you've posted, I'd look for a second opinion from a different clinic entirely.


----------



## Luqjeff

Rose n Poos said:


> I don't want to shake your confidence in this vet if you trust them and have a good, established relationship, but based just on what you've posted, I'd look for a second opinion from a different clinic entirely.


I never been to this vet before, I recently moved here and they are close to me.
I will think about what you said and reconsider when I go see them in person, I already pay extra 55 dollar for the biopsy appointment, so either way I will have to see them, what they told us at the appointment was to see what Mia organs looks like and if anything that cost it. And I think you are right about not doing any other tests and jumping right into the ultrasound like he knows something internally wrong. But honestly, she looks fine from the outside other than she shakes a lot…


----------



## Rose n Poos

It seems to me that a dog that until recently peed normally is now peeing only every 12-16 hours, whether holding it due to painful urination or simply can't get it out, and is shaking, which is often a sign of pain (remember dogs are "programmed" to hide pain and weakness), that is a dog that requires immediate medical care. 
I still can't understand why not at least a urinalysis but it does sound like they're thinking stones or some other kind of blockage. This situation can deteriorate quickly and should be addressed yesterday. 

If it were me and my dog, I'd be looking for another opinion right now. I realize that these costs mount up but this is her health, now and in the future.


----------



## DogtorDoctor

Just wanted to offer a perspective on the ultrasound for urine collection: a lot of vets prefer to sterile obtain the urine via a needle sample directly into the bladder. This is more sterile and more reliable than a "free catch" sample, which some dogs refuse to provide! This procedure (cystocentesis) can be done unsedated and in just a few minutes. While there, the operator takes a quick look for stones in most cases.

I cannot speak to the other decisions made, but I wanted to throw this out there.


----------



## Luqjeff

Mia still haven’t pee since 8:30am this morning and right now is 5pm… what can I do to make her pee


----------



## 94Magna_Tom

Is she eating and drinking properly?


----------



## Rose n Poos

We can't advise on how to "make" her pee. A vet, your vet needs to determine why she's not, asap. 
If she's been eating and drinking pretty normally but not urinating normally for weeks now, you not only have to find and fix that problem but there's a risk that routinely distending her bladder for all these weeks may also have future consequences. 
Please call the vet or get her seen seriously for this.


----------



## Rose n Poos

DogtorDoctor said:


> Just wanted to offer a perspective on the ultrasound for urine collection: a lot of vets prefer to sterile obtain the urine via a needle sample directly into the bladder. This is more sterile and more reliable than a "free catch" sample, which some dogs refuse to provide! This procedure (cystocentesis) can be done unsedated and in just a few minutes. While there, the operator takes a quick look for stones in most cases.
> 
> I cannot speak to the other decisions made, but I wanted to throw this out there.


Thank you for this input! Always appreciated


----------



## Starla

DogtorDoctor said:


> Just wanted to offer a perspective on the ultrasound for urine collection: a lot of vets prefer to sterile obtain the urine via a needle sample directly into the bladder. This is more sterile and more reliable than a "free catch" sample, which some dogs refuse to provide! This procedure (cystocentesis) can be done unsedated and in just a few minutes. While there, the operator takes a quick look for stones in most cases.
> 
> I cannot speak to the other decisions made, but I wanted to throw this out there.


I was wondering if it could be something like this. Thank you for sharing your expertise!


----------



## Luqjeff

Starla said:


> I was wondering if it could be something like this. Thank you for sharing your expertise!


she is, she is totally fine, playing with toys and jumping every where..she just pee, so this time is about 12hours


----------



## Rose n Poos

It's reassuring to hear that she's otherwise fine, but for the holding urine and shaking. Please get her to the vet and let us know what you learn. We know you love this little girl and want her to be healthy and well for years to come.


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## Luqjeff

When to the vet today, dropped her off at 7:30am for ultrasound.. vet called me at 10 and I stop by the office at 10:30 to pick her up.
Vet said everything is Fine! They did ultrasound to check inflammation, and they didn’t find anything, perfectly health. He said she probably just doesn’t want to pee, and she shaking is more of a behavior or my home temperature are too cold(72 degree)….
As for the hair, I didn’t do the biopsy… they though Miya might be a mix breed, but honestly, she didn’t had those fur when we first got her and shaved her for the first time.. it started appearing after the second time we shaved her to the skin. So maybe I damage her follicu?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Luqjeff said:


> He said she probably just doesn’t want to pee, and she shaking is more of a behavior or my home temperature are too cold(72 degree)….


Did the shaking start after she was shaved? And does it stop if you wrap her in a blanket or put a sweater on her? Peggy gets very cold indoors when she gets a short clip. When she’s outdoors and active, she’s fine. But resting inside she’ll start to tremble.


----------



## Luqjeff

PeggyTheParti said:


> Did the shaking start after she was shaved? And does it stop if you wrap her in a blanket or put a sweater on her? Peggy gets very cold indoors when she gets a short clip. When she’s outdoors and active, she’s fine. But resting inside she’ll start to tremble.


I think it could be.. didn’t really pay attention to it when she had fur… at least everything check out fine with the vet, so good to know she doesn’t have stones or anything that will give her pain


----------



## Rose n Poos

I'm glad to hear that the vet has ruled out medical causes for the urinary issues. Still, there was an apparent sudden change in her behavior. It may always be a mystery. I hope that she gets comfortable again and resumes a more normal voiding schedule. Does she always have water available?

If the shaking was only when she was finally peeing after holding it for so many hours, I now wonder if she was scared by something, maybe a bug bit or stung her as she started to pee, maybe a loud noise which could have created the behavior.

If something like this could be a cause, just keep treating her normally and hopefully she'll eventually return to her more normal schedule .


----------



## Luqjeff

You did point out something does seem funny, every time she goes into the bushes, she jumps out of nowhere and maybe is bugs? 😂
She is only 8 months old, it didn’t really show any problem until about a month ago.. maybe she just doesn’t really like to release herself until she really wants too.. 
She does comes to me while shaking and I take her out, she won’t go… 🙄


----------



## Luqjeff

Yes I have two… came from the same breeder but different litter, pet store told me they were brother and sister.. and I didn’t want to break them apart, so I decided to get them(even they are SO expensive). Found out when I register them on the AKC they came from different parent… 
water are always available


----------



## Streetcar

Luqjeff said:


> You did point out something does seem funny, every time she goes into the bushes, she jumps out of nowhere and maybe is bugs? 😂
> She is only 8 months old, it didn’t really show any problem until about a month ago.. maybe she just doesn’t really like to release herself until she really wants too..
> She does comes to me while shaking and I take her out, she won’t go… 🙄


I once took a young dog to the vet due to shaking, and they figured out her anal glands were too full and she was uncomfortable due to that. Don't try it yourself; ask the vet to check. They can help teach you. A dog can be injured from mishandling emptying them.


----------



## Rose n Poos

Not a medical explanation but copied from a book by a well known, very influential, winning poodle breeder of days gone by. I can find little data on her life but Charlotte Hayes Blake Hoyt was definitely breeding and showing thru the 1930's/40's/50's according to this AKC article.
Iconic Poodle Breeder Hayes Blake Hoyt Helped To Shape Breed's History (akc.org) 
She was writing into the 1960's but I can't find a date for the info below. Nonetheless, I'm taking it as true. If this was written as late as the 1960's, then this condition has been seen for at least 50 years or more.

She was writing about browns, but I think that it's less likely to be a function of the specific color and more to do with the mechanism of the occurrence.

"_Such dogs, particularly the first mentioned brown, frequently fade in color, leaving the ears, and often a dark streak down the back, the original color. This is a show fault but should not affect the breeder.

Such dogs, due to hair loss *through disease or injury, may grow hair back in the original dark shade causing (especially if the coat has faded with age) an appearance of a dark spot or patch. This is a show fault but need not affect the breeder. These "spots" in time usually fade to the recent coat color.*_*"*

She wrote "hair loss" but damage without loss should have the same effect.


----------



## JijiBear

Toast522 said:


> Hello,
> My 2 year old mini golden doodle has recently developed a patch of coarse fur on her back. It’s darker than the rest of her fur.
> 
> It doesn’t seem to cause her pain and she doesn’t appear to try to itch it. It doesn’t seem to bother her, even when I try to look at it.
> 
> She has no known injury, she is up to date on all her shots (but she hasn’t had any for about 8 months- she will be due again soon though), she hasn’t had fleas, takes her heart worm medication, etc. The skin underneath looks normal and healthy.
> 
> It did start to show up after a grooming appointment she had a week and a half ago, but I don’t know if there is any correlation to that.
> 
> We have a vet appointment coming up in a few days to hopefully get some answers.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this? The second picture is of her dark spot - it’s on her back. The third photo is of her from just a couple weeks prior, with no dark spot. Thanks!
> View attachment 478432
> T
> View attachment 478430
> View attachment 478431


Hi! Our 2yo F1B has exact same issue.
were you able to figure out what this was?
I quickly skimmed the forum and didn’t see that anyone else was able to identify it either.

The commonality that I noticed though is it starting after a grooming appointment. Summertime after having haircut on the shorter side. Also in the spot where the shampoo would be applied before getting rubbed across their bodies.

For Jiji, the first spot look like it started to grow lighter hair and was going away, but now we are noticing a second spot… Several months after.


----------



## Rose n Poos

JijiBear said:


> I quickly skimmed the forum and didn’t see that anyone else was able to identify it either.


Toast522 hasn't been back since Oct 2021 but it's always possible that they'll respond with another update. Their last update was a while back. You'd need to read thru this whole thread to get the best sense of the issue.

Copied from this thread:
"So far, no member posting has had any vet diagnose a medical condition beyond the unexplained-in-almost-all-cases reason for the "insult" to the hair follicles which seem to cause a long-term but otherwise cosmetic only change after the original cause.

There are some medical conditions that might present similar appearance but in practically every instance posted here, the skin is unaffected, but the hair/fur is.

It's always worth it to check with your vet to ease your mind but it's unlikely to be anything that requires treatment, just time.

TLDR...

No one's vet has indicated any actual medical condition that requires any treatment. Still, there are some other skin conditions that look similar so always wise to have your vet look it over.

Generally what happens is that some irritation or injury damages the hair follicles, with skin possibly involved too.

"Poodle coat is a continuous growth, like human hair, so the color change happens when _cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, _The change becomes noticeable as the hair growth shows the results of the melanin and will stay that way until the effects of the melanin leave her system, at which time the prior color and texture should resume growing in."

_"Damage to hair follicles from a previous injury may also cause coat color changes in dogs, explains veterinarian Dr. Loretta. In the areas of previous trauma such as a surgical incision site, a clipper burn or even a hot spot, the hair may therefore grow darker in color.

This occurs because cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, explains Sandy Blackburn in the book: "The Everything Dog Grooming Book." "_

Why Do Dogs' Fur Change Color? - Dog Discoveries

_"Another potential cause of color change is traumatic injury or surgery. When dogs heal from a skin wound, often the fur that regrows during healing is darker than the original color. This occurs because melanin surges to the site to heal and repair the lost tissue. The result is hyperpigmented fur in the affected area. Note this type of hyperpigmentation only affects the area affected by trauma, not the animal’s full coat.

Clipping or shaving a dog’s coat can also result in color changes, and groomers often caution their clients that long-term grooming can result in a change in pigmentation affecting your pet’s coat over time."_

Why Does My Dog’s Fur Change Color? (figopetinsurance.com)

As a different example of a trauma, one of our members silver poodle was stung by a bee and she developed black fur of a different texture at the site which took months to revert to her adult color.


Of course a bee sting or a thorn would likely show a smaller area of the melanin effect, but a larger area involved would likely be caused by something like sunburn, brushing a bit too hard, rubbing the back on something, things like that, unless your vet has given a diagnosis of something beyond a cosmetic effect."

If coat changes are caused by an external irritation or injury, as most if not all of these seem to have been, then it will take some months for the coat to grow back in as it was.

I wouldn't call this a genetic "health" issue. It seems to be a physical reaction to an external source.


----------



## Doodle777

Toast522 said:


> Hello,
> My 2 year old mini golden doodle has recently developed a patch of coarse fur on her back. It’s darker than the rest of her fur.
> 
> It doesn’t seem to cause her pain and she doesn’t appear to try to itch it. It doesn’t seem to bother her, even when I try to look at it.
> 
> She has no known injury, she is up to date on all her shots (but she hasn’t had any for about 8 months- she will be due again soon though), she hasn’t had fleas, takes her heart worm medication, etc. The skin underneath looks normal and healthy.
> 
> It did start to show up after a grooming appointment she had a week and a half ago, but I don’t know if there is any correlation to that.
> 
> We have a vet appointment coming up in a few days to hopefully get some answers.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this? The second picture is of her dark spot - it’s on her back. The third photo is of her from just a couple weeks prior, with no dark spot. Thanks!
> View attachment 478432
> T
> View attachment 478430
> View attachment 478431


Hello,
We were doing some research after recently noticing the same exact issue happening with our 3 yr old labradoodle as what was happening to your dog, Toast. Your post was over a year ago-did Toast's coat ever go back to normal?
We have an appointment with the vet today to make sure there isn't any underlying condition and was curious what happened with your pup!
Thank You!
Doodle777


----------



## cowpony

Toast hasn't checked in with the forum in several months; I'm not sure if you will get a response @Doodle777. The good news here is that the color change seems to have been benign in almost all instances.


----------



## Rose n Poos

This is the last post from Toast522 Oct 11 2021



Toast522 said:


> That looks exactly like what happened to our F1B mini golden doodle, Toast. Almost 5 months later, her fur still looks off. But she has no other symptoms and all the appointments we have had at the vet have come back with normal results. I would say it has got a little lighter over time, but still noticeably darker than the rest of her fur. All of it along her spine.
> we switched her diet to a little bit more high quality food, focusing on omega3s. That didn’t seem to do anything for Toast.


It's a long one but could be worth your time to read thru the entire thread and follow the links in it also.


----------



## Doodle777

cowpony said:


> Toast hasn't checked in with the forum in several months; I'm not sure if you will get a response @Doodle777. The good news here is that the color change seems to have been benign in almost all instances.


Ok, thanks for the response. We read through the entire thread and only saw one response that indicated their doodle's fur went "back to normal" after a year or so. It sounds like there were no underlying issues found, which is great news. We did notice this change a couple of weeks after going to the groomer, (noticed many responses called this out as well), but not sure what would happen there to cause this. In any case, I will follow up in case what we learn or see over time will help anyone! Thank you.


----------



## Jay

First post. Found via Google. Had to catch up on 8 pages first. Small dark brown patch on my poochon's mid-spine. Agree it could be grooming. But have you all considered harnesses? We had a collar only for a few years and no issues. Been using the harness more lately and it is very snug on the skin isn't it. Could it irritate the hair follicles. We don't have a dog flap or dog who crawls under things other than the bed. I doubt like others it's diet. Auto immune or serious disease would present other symptoms or concerning behaviour/demeanour. Sunburn is one other possibility. What was the weather when you all noticed. Worth comparing data. Cheers, Jay from the UK


----------



## Bgallagherkidwell

Hello! Did you ever get to the bottom of this? My doodle is 1.5 years, just got her from the groomers and she has two of these spots near her lower spine….


----------



## Rose n Poos

Bgallagherkidwell said:


> Hello! Did you ever get to the bottom of this? My doodle is 1.5 years, just got her from the groomers and she has two of these spots near her lower spine….


There's no "solution" as such, since it doesn't appear to be an illness. 
I'm not sure if you've read thru the whole thread so here's the gist:

Copied from this thread:
"So far, no member posting has had any vet diagnose a medical condition beyond the unexplained-in-almost-all-cases reason for the "insult" to the hair follicles which seem to cause a long-term but otherwise cosmetic only change after the original cause.

There are some medical conditions that might present similar appearance but in practically every instance posted here, the skin is unaffected, but the hair/fur is.

It's always worth it to check with your vet to ease your mind but it's unlikely to be anything that requires treatment, just time.

TLDR...

No one's vet has indicated any actual medical condition that requires any treatment. Still, there are some other skin conditions that look similar so always wise to have your vet look it over.

Generally what happens is that some irritation or injury damages the hair follicles, with skin possibly involved too.

"Poodle coat is a continuous growth, like human hair, so the color change happens when _cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, _The change becomes noticeable as the hair growth shows the results of the melanin and will stay that way until the effects of the melanin leave her system, at which time the prior color and texture should resume growing in."

_"Damage to hair follicles from a previous injury may also cause coat color changes in dogs, explains veterinarian Dr. Loretta. In the areas of previous trauma such as a surgical incision site, a clipper burn or even a hot spot, the hair may therefore grow darker in color.

This occurs because cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, explains Sandy Blackburn in the book: "The Everything Dog Grooming Book." "_

Why Do Dogs' Fur Change Color? - Dog Discoveries

_"Another potential cause of color change is traumatic injury or surgery. When dogs heal from a skin wound, often the fur that regrows during healing is darker than the original color. This occurs because melanin surges to the site to heal and repair the lost tissue. The result is hyperpigmented fur in the affected area. Note this type of hyperpigmentation only affects the area affected by trauma, not the animal’s full coat.

Clipping or shaving a dog’s coat can also result in color changes, and groomers often caution their clients that long-term grooming can result in a change in pigmentation affecting your pet’s coat over time."_

Why Does My Dog’s Fur Change Color? (figopetinsurance.com)

As a different example of a trauma, one of our members silver poodle was stung by a bee and she developed black fur of a different texture at the site which took months to revert to her adult color.


Of course a bee sting or a thorn would likely show a smaller area of the melanin effect, but a larger area involved would likely be caused by something like sunburn, brushing a bit too hard, rubbing the back on something, things like that, unless your vet has given a diagnosis of something beyond a cosmetic effect."

If coat changes are caused by an external irritation or injury, as most if not all of these seem to have been, then it will take some months for the coat to grow back in as it was.

I wouldn't call this a genetic "health" issue. It seems to be a physical reaction to an external source. 

---

I even found a description of a similar issue written, most likely, several decades ago.

_Not a medical explanation but copied from a book by a well known, very influential, winning poodle breeder of days gone by. I can find little data on her life but Charlotte Hayes Blake Hoyt was definitely breeding and showing thru the 1930's/40's/50's according to this AKC article.
Iconic Poodle Breeder Hayes Blake Hoyt Helped To Shape Breed's History (akc.org)
She was writing into the 1960's but I can't find a date for the info below. Nonetheless, I'm taking it as true. If this was written as late as the 1960's, then this condition has been seen for at least 50 years or more.

She was writing about browns, but I think that it's less likely to be a function of the specific color and more to do with the mechanism of the occurrence.

"Such dogs, particularly the first mentioned brown, frequently fade in color, leaving the ears, and often a dark streak down the back, the original color. This is a show fault but should not affect the breeder.

Such dogs, due to hair loss *through disease or injury, may grow hair back in the original dark shade causing (especially if the coat has faded with age) an appearance of a dark spot or patch. This is a show fault but need not affect the breeder. These "spots" in time usually fade to the recent coat color."*

She wrote "hair loss" but damage without loss should have the same effect. _


----------



## Foxboro

Our 2.5 year old Doodle is experiencing the same thing. All along her back the poodle coat is gone and replaced with a reddish, wiry coat. Our vet could not find any skin or mite issues. We have a dermatologist appointment on November 3rd. The dog is not in distress. It doesn't look like the original coat is returning any time soon.


----------



## Rose n Poos

Welcome! Have you read thru the thread? It's always wise to check with your vet but no one has ever reported back that a medical condition was found. 

It's most likely to be a regrowth response to an "insult" to the area where the coat is changing. 

"Poodle coat is a continuous growth, like human hair, so the color change happens when _cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process, which turns the skin and hair a darker color, _The change becomes noticeable as the hair growth shows the results of the melanin and will stay that way until the effects of the melanin leave her system, at which time the prior color and texture should resume growing in."


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## Foxboro

Thank you so much. I have a Vet appointment on November 3rd at Tufts with a dermatologist specialist and will keep everyone updated. However, I can not see where or how the insult to the area occurred. Our doodle's whole back and neck has changed. It was not a response to grooming. She is not scratching that area; but I do notice she is biting her paws more often.

Again, I truly appreciate all your information.


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## cowpony

I'm very curious to hear what the dermatologist at Tufts has to say. (It's awesome you have that resource available.) Over the years it's seemed like the majority of people never get a proper answer to why the weird blotches have appeared. A few can trace them back to a minor skin injury or bug bite, and one or two have found allergies or immune related issues. I personally wonder if an unnoticed sunburn might have triggered some cases.


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## Rose n Poos

Foxboro said:


> Thank you so much. I have a Vet appointment on November 3rd at Tufts with a dermatologist specialist and will keep everyone updated. However, I can not see where or how the insult to the area occurred. Our doodle's whole back and neck has changed. It was not a response to grooming. She is not scratching that area; but I do notice she is biting her paws more often.
> 
> Again, I truly appreciate all your information.


Would you mind adding a photo of the area? That will also be very helpful for future reference.


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## Foxboro

Here are two photos. The first is with a full coat. The second photo shows her after being groomed.


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## Casey_May

My F1B mini goldendoodle has exactly what everyone has been talking about (see picture), and the vet just shrugged it off. All the comments and advice, especially from @RosenPoos, have been extremely helpful! I've gone through most every post, and I hope to give my little contribution. So, here are my variables that seem consistent with previous posts:


The hair loss is 1 patch, longer along the spine (4") than it is wide (~1.5", 2" at the widest spot)
First noticed the spot around 09/12/2022
Observe NO irritation. No itching, no tenderness, no sensitivities.
Also in the middle of September, Casey had a roundworm infection. Only symptom was bloody diarrhea, but that is pretty exclusive to roundworm (or some scary cancer, which it's not!). I switched his worm prevention med to include roundworm and gave him an immediate dose. I know exactly where he picked it up (a huge dog park), and we don't go there anymore. The spot manifested at this time, but I think that was pure coincidence.
We live in Colorado Springs (since April, Casey has been here for 6 months)... I saw some other people were from CO
Casey had last been groomed on 09/02/22, just a week prior to noticing the spot.
Some other variables specific to Casey and our family:

My partner does most of the at-home grooming, brushing him everyday (pretty forcefully) with a thin bristle brush. Here is the Amazon link for reference: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000VQDAY6?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
Casey _literally_ has dog anorexia. Since he was a puppy, he has never been excited for meals and will often eat only 1 a day (despite dry food being out all the time). He was underweight for... I **** you not... his ENTIRE first two years of life (about 20lbs, although he is a runt). I have tried all kinds of diets, but a few months ago, I gave up and started baking plain chicken for him. I use a Gastro-support dry food and I give him about 5-7 oz per day (broken up into two meals).
Casey's food problem is odd, but I'm going to guess he's just a picky boy. Given all of this, I have to imagine the diagnosis is, as Rose n Poos describes, an "'insult' to the hair follicles which seem to cause a long-term but otherwise cosmetic only change after the original cause."

As a med student, the following quote also makes perfect sense to me: "The color change happens when _*cells containing melanin, rush to the trauma site as part of the inflammatory process [to heal and repair the lost tissue], which turns the skin and hair a darker color."*_

One thing that is still puzzling... why do most of the doodles (especially the Goldendoodles) have the patch in the exact same location? That seems to be a genetic pattern.

My final guess is this: Our doodles have a particular gene which causes this, but that it is typically dormant. An external disruption, due to temperature/UV, blunt force, or otherwise, activates the gene in the relevant area for as long as the disruptive stimulus is in place.


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## Foxboro

Our Doodle started showing signs around the same time as yours. My gut tells me it is genetic, but I just don't know. As mentioned in my previous posts. I have a vet appointment on Nov. 3rd at Tufts for our doodle with the same affliction...and will keep everyone updated. This condition appears to be uncommon but definitely not unknown.


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## Rose n Poos

Foxboro said:


> Our Doodle started showing signs around the same time as yours. My gut tells me it is genetic, but I just don't know. As mentioned in my previous posts. I have a vet appointment on Nov. 3rd at Tufts for our doodle with the same affliction...and will keep everyone updated. This condition appears to be uncommon but definitely not unknown.


Your dog's is the most extreme I've seen so it will be particularly helpful to hear what Tuft's determines. 

Since poodles and other poo-crosses also exhibit the issue (and probably other breeds/crosses also) I've focused my search on the poodle + side. 

I remember reading this but not sure I saved the reference. What I think I remember reading was that for GR's, the coat change tends to start along and down the spine. I may be misremembering this tidbit, it's not this way for poodles, but if it's true, that may support the location/genetic hypothesis in goldendoodles at least.


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## Doodle777

Hi Everyone, Doodle 777 here. Following up with some information. 
To quickly recap, our 3/1/2 yr old multi-generational mini australian labradoodle (which is part labrador retriever, part poodle, part cocker spaniel), began developing this "patch" like fur on his spine beginning of August of this year (our post is up further in this thread, photo posted below). He is a single coated doodle.
Since we could also find no information at the time, we took him to the vet to rule out any illness. We did blood-work and his skin was examined. All completely normal. There is no hair loss, only change in color to his fur along the spine, although it's growing out a bit now and looks less like a big shadow. He's acting and eating all normally. No itching or scratching. He's his happy self! 
The vet had no concrete explanation (he wasn't injured, never plays rough, and has had no issues with bites), but she recommended that if we see any significant changes, or are still concerned, we can opt for a skin biopsy (which would give definitive answers on the hair follicles and if there is any damage). We're opting out of that at this time, since he seems healthy, and there is no hair loss or visible skin issue.
Our groomer said she has seen this more commonly on double-coated doodles, where the undercoat becomes exposed, and it sometimes just goes away on its own (or not). Our doodle is single-coated, so this doesn't really help explain our situation, but she did recommend to NOT brush hard in those areas (only gently use comb if brushing) and try not to disturb the area too much.
I'm attaching 2 photos, 1 taken in August when we first noticed the darker area, 1 taken today with the darker areas blending in a bit (but still visible).
Everyone's situation may be different, and would recommend to always check with your vet if possible, but hope this helps.


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## Rose n Poos

Thank you so much for this info.

Not being used to double-coated dogs, I hadn't considered that and can see the double coat explanation being a factor in some cases but since this is affecting purebred poodles also (and probably other similar coated purebreds), that doesn't seem to answer here, as you said

I'm happy to hear that it doesn't seem to be any sort of health issue and that your pup's coat is returning to its normal look.


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## SpclKT79

I’m just jumping on here to say our 2yo doodle (F1B Bernedoodle) has the same thing. Appeared out of nowhere and doesn’t seem to bother him. Skin looks normal. Just shorter, darker hair. So weird! But his spot is on the right side of his neck/shoulder.


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## SpclKT79

Foxboro said:


> Our Doodle started showing signs around the same time as yours. My gut tells me it is genetic, but I just don't know. As mentioned in my previous posts. I have a vet appointment on Nov. 3rd at Tufts for our doodle with the same affliction...and will keep everyone updated. This condition appears to be uncommon but definitely not unknown.


Hi! What did Tufts say at your appt? Thank you!


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## cowpony

Ritter unexpectedly came home from his most recent grooming appointment with two dark spots on his shoulder & side. He was a dark brown pup and has been lightening to a cafe over the past year. These spots seem to be a reversion to his original dark brown. I assume his skin got injured either by a bug bite or else from getting nipped by Galen during rough play. I'm curious to see if they spread, stay the same, or fade to cafe.









I parted his fur and can see that the hair spot is dark straight down to the roots, in contrast to the surrounding pale brown. It's a little hard to see. I've got the dark hair weighted down by the upper pebble, and the dark roots are in between the two pebbles.


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## twyla

They are caused by trauma to the skin like injections, a poke from a cat or something similar


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## Foxboro

My Golden Doodle has the same thing all down her back. The condition began in September 2022. It is called Follicular Dysplasia. According to the Vet it will last up to 18 months before the normal poodle coat returns,


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