# New here with a controversial topic



## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

You might consider your definition of responsible breeder a little more closely which could help a lot in your search. 

Perhaps you just left this part out but Nowhere in your post did you mention health testing, if the breeder isn't doing ALL of the health testing available before they breed their dogs how responsible are they? You can argue that health testing won't 100% garentee a healthy puppy which is true, but if 5 generations of dogs tested free of *insert problem here* then it is reasonable to assume your puppy has the highest possible odds of also being free of the issue. Nothing is set in stone, sometimes things come up or develop but you get the idea. Especialy in the case of dogs who are going to be doing things like agility having eyes and joints done at the very least would be very important. 

Another question I have for you is WHY would you consider trying to find a dog to show in conformation from a breeder who is not showing? Never in a million years would I do such a thing, but thats me. I might look for a puppy to use in agility or obedience from whatever source was available but even then I would tend to lean towards breeders who were doing some performance events with their own dogs though it wouldn't be as important in that case. 

There are loads of breeders out there who will "take a chance on a newbie". Maybe not with the best dog they've ever bred, but certainly with a quality example of the breed. You may or may not find that expensive. Some may be willing to do co-ownerships or retain ownership until your finished showing your dog and it has been spayed or neutered. That is really what limited reg is really all about. I place my pups on limited because I don't want you to breed, I also retain the papers until said puppy (if it's in a non showing home) is altered. In show homes, which I rarely place dogs in because I am so anal about people, I retain co-ownership until the dog is finsihed and altered, unless other arrangements have been made concerning possible breedings. This is a pretty common practice. 

I cannot speak directly to the price issue, my dogs are not cheaply priced and never will be, but here are some general observations for you about what may or may not be going through a breeders mind.

I think it's important not only to consider the expenses of showing/finishing dogs, health testing, breeding, prenatal care, raising the litter and so on (I am by the way impressed that you already have and are aware of the possible costs) but also also consider the time and effort it takes to raise that litter. I would assume you would want a puppy from a breeder who did everything they could for their puppies and provided as many social experiences as possible which takes time. The price tag on a given puppy may also be a breeders effort to weed out some less desirable homes. It not a perfect methods but think about it. I know a pug breeder who is like this. Her thinking is that she doesn't want to deal with the web surfer or the newspaper reader who is just looking for a cheap dog (not that I mean thats what you are doing). She figures that a person who spends a ton on a puppy is going to have a greater respect for that puppy and will take every care with it. I can argue that spending that much on anything might just elevate it to a status symbol and not a family member but again thats just my opinion.


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## aki (Jul 19, 2009)

I'm not a breeder, and to be completely honest, $1500 seems like a pretty high price, especially for 'pet quality'(I wonder how much a show quality pup is?), but I am prepared to fork out that, and more if the breeder has a great reputation, has a breeding practice I agree with, does genetic health test to ensure there is a lower chance of my poodle developing any genetic disorders, has fantastic pedigrees, and puts a lot of sweat, love, and time into their dogs(ie, showing and just loving their dogs). That doesn't mean that everyone breeding poodles and selling them for $1000 and up are good, quality breeders. It's a sad fact that a lot of people breed just for the money, and have no care for the well being of the dogs and the breed.

From what your telling us about this breeder, it doesn't seem like a wise choice to get a puppy from them. They have no proper pedigrees for the litter, neither of the parents have finished...it seems very suspicious to me and I, personally, would not get a pup from them.

I think the reason a show quality pup goes for more is because it's hard to get a dog that conforms to the standards. Pet quality isn't going to be judged on how much it conforms to the standard, therefore certain faults the dog may or may not have can be overlooked. A lot of times these great breeders don't break even when they sell their pups, because of all the time, sweat, and money put into them and their parents, but they continue breeding for the good of the breed.

While I do agree that the prices are high for a quality pup, I'm willing to pay them for a quality dog that has a low chance of developing genetic disorders. I want the highest chance that my dog will be healthy, mentally sound, and have a long life free of any debilitating illnesses. If paying more means I will achieve that then so be it.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I may not have mentioned the health testing but it was only an oversight not what I've been doing while looking for the right breeder. I do realize that it is an important part of breeding a litter of puppies and I am looking for breeders that have tested their dogs primarily in hips and PRA although I'm familiar with all of the other testing that's available. I'm also talking to people that have more knowledge and experience and guidence to what some of the older lines have bred for and what to avoid if you see it in pedigrees. I realize that a lot of people are wary of the new person and because I put myself out there as a person that may or may not want to show, it's a gamble on sending a really nice show puppy with me because it may or may not end up finished. I get all that. 

I got an email from a breeder that just irritated me about the cost of her puppy. She was asking more than I can afford and I'm not so low on what I can afford that I might as well adopt a puppy from the human society either. I was highly offended by the tone in which she implied I might not understand the cost of raising a standard poodle. I had already told her that I owned two of them so I'm very familiar with the costs of owning them and although she apologized to me, I won't have anything to do with someone that will talk to me like that. First and foremost these dogs need to be someone's pet that's loved and cared for. Second, the dog can participate in someone's hobby of raising and showing dogs but it's not really what the dogs want it's what we want. It would probably be good if some breeders weren't so eager to discredit the novice pet owner before they get to know them because they pass up on chances of finding really good quality homes for their dogs. That's just my humble opinion.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

And I disagree that it's hard to find a puppy that conforms to the standard. I think if you are breeding correctly you should get most of your litter to conform with the standard or something is wrong with your breeding program. Standard poodle litters are pretty large compared to other breeds so you have quite a few chances to show off all the hard work and research that you've done to get fabulous examples of the breed.


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## aki (Jul 19, 2009)

I'm sorry if I didn't elaborate further, but I do think that breeding can be a very unpredictable and at the same time predictable thing.

Dogs are individuals and not every dog is born equal. There are dogs that are show material and there are dogs that aren't. I'm sure there are inbetweens too. Showing is a very arduous task, and picking a show dog even more so. There are so many factors when choosing, not just in looks. Personality and temperament are some major things to consider. Does this dog really shine and demand attention? Not to mention all the little details that I won't get into. So while a puppy may have met the standards in terms of look, he/she might not have such a spontaneous personality as say a different puppy with only minor things that don't quite meet the breed standard.

That's just my opinion on things though. Feel free to disagree.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I don't disagree with that entirely but I think that more often than not, show quality puppies are placed in nonshow homes as pets because there aren't enough show homes for puppies that can go out and win in the show ring. We are talking about standard poodles here and it is just in their nature to be outgoing in temperament and have that showy attitude. I have yet to see one that has been socialized correctly that is extremely shy and introverted. While I do think that there are some individuals that are just more laid back and would prefer not to have to be "pretty" for people, I think overall, poodles are just a wonderful show breed (temperament wise not coat).


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## aki (Jul 19, 2009)

Yes I too believe that they are a very outgoing and friendly breed more often then not. Absolutely a wonderful show breed full of personality and spunk, and they are known for that lovely personality. Some may not be as motivated for show, just like some aren't treat motivated and others are.

If you have a good consistent breeding program, more often then you'll get what you expect. I just really see them as individuals, and I don't like to generalize because in all honesty no two dogs are completely the same, though they can be very similar, especially to parents/littermates.

Maybe one of the breeders here can illuminate their particular reason as to why pet quality prices differ so vastly from show quality. As I said before, that's my opinion, and I could be completely wrong. I'm no breeder :go-away:


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

aki said:


> Yes I too believe that they are a very outgoing and friendly breed more often then not. Absolutely a wonderful show breed full of personality and spunk, and they are known for that lovely personality. Some may not be as motivated for show, just like some aren't treat motivated and others are.
> 
> If you have a good consistent breeding program, more often then you'll get what you expect. I just really see them as individuals, and I don't like to generalize because in all honesty no two dogs are completely the same, though they can be very similar, especially to parents/littermates.
> 
> Maybe one of the breeders here can illuminate as to their particular reason as to why pet quality prices differ so vastly from show quality. As I said before, that's my opinion, and I could be completely wrong. I'm no breeder :go-away:


It's just my opinion of course and I don't know a lot but I think it has something to do with the seriousness in which they want the potential show owner to take the dog's show career. I guess what I'm asking or saying by all of this is that not everyone wants to make showing dogs a career and go to as many shows per year as the breeder wants them to. I've always wanted to do conformation showing and most people I've talked to said that I was nuts for wanting to do something where so many people are so mean and so backstabbing. Almost all that I've talked to about AKC showing have told me it's just like that movie and it's barely an exaggeration. It really makes me wonder why so many people continue to do something that's so awful. Then I've had some say it's a lot of fun. Most of those people show very limited and don't take it all too seriously or show in UKC.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Poodles are the fad dog right now, more so the Standards and these "Tiny Toys" and unimformed people will pay out the ass if they think they are getting something "rare" or special. 

I have not once in my life bought a dog...ever. My standard girl was given to me by a friend of mine. She paid $1800 for the because of her color and patteren and got the shaft because she is not the color nor the patteren the breeder promised and now the breeder has droped of the face of the earth.

Anyway back to price. I am currently looking for a Toy Parti color to show. I have found a breeder that I like and her pups are only $800 with breeding rights, I am currenly on a waiting list for a puppy. 

I have looked at countless breeder websites and emailed with a few of them and just about all of them charge different prices for a multitude of things. This I think is nuts. $1500 is a LOT of money to spend on a dog no matter how much quality it has. I know many people in the show world with different breeds and none of them pay nearly that much for a show quality puppy.

There should be no difference in price as ALL dogs are pet quality but not all are breeding quality and I think as a responsible breeder you should be more concerened with who ends up with your dogs then how much they are paying.

I know there is a lot that goes into breeding a litter but come on if you have a litter of 11 puppies and you sold each for $1200 thats $13,200 you more then double how much it cost to breed the litter and test the parents. (I found a breeder whos dogs I liked and she has had three litters this year and has sold evey puppy for no less the $1200 and each litter had at least 8 puppies they have made more then $30,000 in breeding Standard Poodles. That ****ing insane.)

Anyway now for the new owner thing. I don't blame breeders for wanteing to make absolutly sure you are going to follow though on your showing plans. You either buy a dog to show or buy a dog to be your pet its not a "I may want to show it one day." it does not really work that way. I know when I do have my kennel of dogs non show quality puppes will be spayed and neutered and I will try my damndest to get those show/breeding worthy in the ring to see what they've got. 

Yeah I rambled a bit but in short, let breeders know right from the get go that you have owned Poodles or currently have Poodles/dog and you would like to maybe show your puppy. Take time in finding a breeder you like with the price you want to pay. It takes time and effort to find the perfect dog.

Also one last thing I took offence to this comment 
"She was asking more than I can afford and I'm not so low on what I can afford that I might as well adopt a puppy from the human society either."
Shelter dogs are just as deserving as puppies from a breeder. They are not some cheep dime store dog only poor people can afford. Hell there are some breed rescues who want upwards of $300 for an altered adult.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I meant nothing offensive by that comment. My husband works for the director of our local Humane Society and I know how much he asks for his dogs out there and it's usually based on the dog itself and it goes anywhere from $150-300 and up if it's a purebred dog. What I meant by the comment was that in case a breeder is thinking "okay if you want to pay that low go adopt a dog from the human society" I'm offering a lot more than $300 just not $1500. A lot of breeders have the mentality that if you don't pay their asking price of $1500-$2000 that you aren't worthy of their pet. 

I agree with you, I've done the math. I saw a website that tried to break it down and explain why they ask $1500 for a pet puppy. Did these people even have finished champions behind the pedigree to at least dispense with the idea that they have put a lot of money insuring that their dog is conformationally sound against the breed standard? No, they owned standard poodles and I guess that's just damn enough reason to ask someone to pay $1500 for a pet. I'm pretty sure if they are breeding the dogs more than once the first litter pays for all the genetic testing done to the parents of the litter, if they even really did the testing. I also talked to a parti breeder with the same thinking and I told her outright that if she didn't own one single finished champion I'm not paying her $1500 for one of her puppies because why should I? I also agree that show people tend to swap dogs all the time so they do not pay the prices that they ask us novice pet owners to pay. $30,000 per year for selling people pets is a lot of money. I'd say take about 1/3 of that for the care of those dogs and you've got profit there. That's what I don't understand. Don't even get me started on shipping. I live in Texas and haven't found breeders here that don't ask under $1500 for a puppy so I've been looking at other breeders in other states as well. Well, it pays off but then I've got to pay shipping. Well, some people want to overcharge for shipping as well. I can add. I know how much it really costs to ship an 8 week old standard puppy. If you ask more than that you are asking it for your convienence and you should just say so. At least be honest and say what you mean instead of acting like every last cent is going towards the plane ticket. 

Is it so hard to ask for someone that's completely honest with you and won't try to take advantage of you because A. you can't find a breeder in your area and you can't come to their place and actually pick your puppy and B. you are a novice and don't know enough about them or what they breed or what's behind their lines to know the truth of what they say. I hear a lot of talk about pet people but there are a lot of unscrupulous show breeders out there as well.

As far as showing, I disagree with you. Not everyone can and will spend every single moment in the show ring with a dog. I've got kids and a family and I want to do things in my own time. I'm not a dog groomer so I have to learn how to groom the coat and it's very possible I'll need some help with that. If you don't want your dogs out there with a family that's going to love them and maybe take them to a few shows annually for what they think is going to be a little competitive fun then don't sell them and keep them all yourself or put them with handlers for finishing. Otherwise I say let a person decide how often and when they show their own dog. This is all supposed to be for the confirmation of the conformation of the dog but it's not. A breeder pretty much knows what they are producing if they are experienced and they can and do evaluate dogs on their own to see what came out of their breeding. Just because there are X lines behind a dog doesn't mean much if the person is an awful handler or they aren't having luck with grooming. I don't think you should penalize someone for being new and taking things slow.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

I did not mean that you have to show every weekend. Hell I can't even find a show close enough to me to go twice a month. What I meant was that you will be dedicated to showing the dog to its championship and if said dog does not enjoy the show ring or comes up with some DQing falt then it should be altered. I personaly feel all dogs should be companions first and formost. 

I raised rabbits for 10 years and it aggirvated me to no end when I would sell show worthy kits to people who promised to show nine times out of ten I never saw the rabbit again on a show table.

Anyway like I said you just have to find that one good breeder you agree with.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Some prices for dogs really are absurd especially when they are registered with a scam registry-might as well have any papers at all. I have never payed over $300 for a dog and if I an help it I will not go with buying a dog again-adoption is a WONDERFUL option and in a lot of cases it saves lives. People are really milking animals these days for money, I seen some kittens for $10...just plain old yellow kittens and mixed breed puppies I think was accidental for $25 or more, ridiculous imo.

I guess I'm just not made of money like alot of people but I will NEVER own a show quality dog because I cannot and will not pay that much, $1000 or more can buy a lot more needed things.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Purple Poodle said:


> I did not mean that you have to show every weekend. Hell I can't even find a show close enough to me to go twice a month. What I meant was that you will be dedicated to showing the dog to its championship and if said dog does not enjoy the show ring or comes up with some DQing falt then it should be altered. I personaly feel all dogs should be companions first and formost.
> 
> I raised rabbits for 10 years and it aggirvated me to no end when I would sell show worthy kits to people who promised to show nine times out of ten I never saw the rabbit again on a show table.
> 
> Anyway like I said you just have to find that one good breeder you agree with.


Well, what one person's definition of "dedicated" and another person's are usually two different things. Some people think you aren't dedicated if you don't show to all possible majors in a year. You are right, it's all about clicking with that one breeder and working out the details.


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## aki (Jul 19, 2009)

Adopting is really a wonderful option, but it's really hard to find a puppy, let alone a purebred puppy. I would really ideally like to raise my first personal poodle from the puppy stages. It's actually hard to find a purebred poodle at all anymore. They mostly seem to have the doodle mixes.

I guess you could call me crazy, because I would pay over a grand for a well-bred poodle from a breeder I like. I think it's a long-term investment and from my experience sometimes getting a better deal means getting lesser quality. I'm not saying their aren't breeders who price below a grand and are respectable, but I would say a lot of the breeders I've questioned that were selling under a grand didn't do any health testing at all. Health testing is really important to me especially after losing dogs to genetic diseases.

On a side note, someone direct me to the quality pups under $1000! My search as been futile. The prices I've seen range from $1000-$3000, sometimes more because of color.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Yeah, with what Aki said, I too want to raise my dogs from puppies, as they are going to be retrievers. I'm sure you can train an adult dog to retrieve, maybe. Only if it's modivated, but if a puppy is raised on it it'll pick up faster imo.

And what Purple Poo said on the last page, it's pretty obnoxious when people hack up the prices on 'tiny toys' and 'micro toys.' AH THAT DRIVES ME NUTS! There's no such thing! There are toy, mini, and standard poodles, that's it. I would NEVER, EVER buy from someone saying their pup was a 'tiny toy.' That screams BYB.

I imagine it can be hard to find someone who has an honest price for their dog, any BYB can say all their dogs have had testing and price their dogs at 1500, but do they? Idk, I think I'm on topic? There was a lot of thick paragraphs and I did a lot of skimming, lol.


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## artsycourtneysue (Jul 21, 2009)

I completely understand. I waited a long time to find a breeder who would first of all, let me meet the puppies and evaluate them and choose my own puppy. Secondly, it was difficult to find a dog that was priced well, and yet has had health testing done and champion parents.

We ended up finding our puppy and she is a mini from Rockhill/Kiyara lines, and she was $800, and we were able to meet the litter of 4 black puppies and spend time getting to know their personalities to find out which one was right for us.

It was not an easy task finding a breeder that we felt comfortable with.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Not to go completly off topic but whats the stigma around raising a puppy insted of getting an older puppy or adult dog? I got my Standard at 11 months old and she is awesome, smart and well behaved. 

Puppies are hard, sure they can be fun but so can an 11 mobnth old puppy! Or in my moms case a 2 year old dog. She adopted him from an old woman who never let him out in the yard and she said he loved his toys. Well now that he can go out side he LOVES the water and playing with the other dogs and riding in the car and just beeing a Poodle he barly even touches his toys now, he'd rather be outside. 

Also training a puppy to retrieve is part instinct part training. Sure it could be easier to do so from 8 weeks on but dealing with the chewing and the whining and the potty training and what have you. granted when I get my puppy it will be awesome but I'll still go ugh. lol

Anyway don't dismiss an older puppy or young adult dog they need homes too and you have just as much time to train them.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I personally love puppies and all that comes with them. It's not easy but it's rewarding too. My boy Harry wasn't a teeny puppy. He was 12 weeks old when we got him and already house broken and we really had very few issues with him at all. I think 12 weeks is an ideal age.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

haha puppies are fun, I guess I just like adult dogs better! I guess since I started rescueing 5 years ago and ending up with alot of adult dogs I lean more towards them.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Purple Poodle said:


> haha puppies are fun, I guess I just like adult dogs better! I guess since I started rescueing 5 years ago and ending up with alot of adult dogs I lean more towards them.


I did my first rescue with Ginger and although I'd do it again if I saw the need, it's not something that I'm equipped to do emotionally. I have issues with people after seeing the condition she was in so I can't imagine seeing some of the things that real rescue people have seen. I like older dogs too but I love puppy breath.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Breeders will charge what they think the market will bear. This is the nature of a free economy. It is then the responsibility of the buyer to determine whether or not they are getting value for their dollar. I too am always amazed that buyers are more than willing to open their wallets and pay top dollar for poorly bred Poodles from BYBs and high volume breeders. This is especially true when it comes to color.

My puppies are $1500. This is pretty much the standard going rate for a show/performance bred Standard Poodle on the Front Range of Colorado. On either coasts, you will pay $2000-$2500. The Midwest is a bit lower priced and I have seen well bred puppies in the $1000-$1200 range. From the really top lines that have done big winning at shows like Westminster, you can pay up to $5000 for a puppy. As far as Poodles being higher priced than other breeds, you clearly have not recently priced out Cavaliers, English Bulldogs or Norfolk Terriers and a host of other breeds. 

I have bred three litters in 8 years of being involved with Poodles. Both girls I bred were finished AKC champions with obedience titles:
CH Wink's Ingenue CDX
http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=325588
CH Be Gracious Say Gnight Gracy CD
http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=116772

For what it is worth, they were bred to Champion dogs from well established show/performance lines.

As far as pricing pet vs. show puppies, all my puppies are priced the same. It costs me the same to produce each puppy and I believe that they have the same intrinsic value. When a puppy is well bred, I don't see why one destined to be a pet should be lower priced. If I bred fancy dressage horses, would you expect me to sell my foals at a lower prices just because you only intended to trail ride them? 

For me, the price difference between show and companion comes on the back end. If I sell a show puppy, it always goes out on co-ownership until the Poodle is finished or has higher level titles in performance and it is fully health tested. Then, I get pick puppy back the 1st time the Poodle is bred and I come off as co-owner. I figure that by the time a buyer goes through all the time and effort to get a Championship on their Poodle that they will be good stewards of the breed. 

Understand too that when you spend $1500 on my puppies, you not only get a well bred dog, you get me. For life. The deal with a good breeder is that they become your dog owning mentor. I'm available over the life of the dog to answer questions and to provide health, grooming and training tips. This is something to think about when you buy a Poodle. What does your breeder really know about the breed? What is their experience with the breed? How helpful are they going to be to you?

Re finding a show prospect with full registration....

You will have an easier time getting a boy than a girl because most breeders look to keep back their best bitches for themselves. You want to show in AKC? Find a breeder who is breeding dogs who have finished in AKC. Showing in breed in AKC is not just about conforming to the standard. We have very high expectations for what a show dog should look like and how they should move and act. If you are truly looking for an AKC show prospect you need to spend the better part of the year haunting dog shows and learning about what judges are looking for. You want to show in UKC.... find a breeder who is into that and who can help you negotiate that system. Be realistic. Yes everyone has their own idea about what they want to do, but don't get all offended if someone who breeds for AKC is less than excited that you want to show in UKC.

Finally, finding a poodle in your budget... 

1. It is an old fashioned idea, but for those who want a puppy, save the money. Saving even $100 a month will mean that you can buy a $1500 puppy in a year and a half. Often, with a good breeder, you will have to be on a waitlist for this long anyway. 

2. If you want a high quality Poodle and you are willing to take an older dog, you might consider a retired show/breeding dog. Contact breeders and be willing to wait.

3. You would not believe the high quality of some of the Poodles who come through official Poodle rescues. My neighbor got two fabulous, well bred poodles because their owner was a single woman whose job changed and she was forced to travel 3 weeks out of 4 every month.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Same thing goes in birds because I own a cockatoo. What's popular at the moment and what the market will allow sets the price of the species. In this economy, bird breeders aren't able to ask their typical asking prices and are really barely breaking even after taking into consideration they hand feed a baby from the time it's a couple of weeks old until the time it's weaned and ready to go into it's new home. That can be months for some species for birds.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

cbrand said:


> 1. It is an old fashioned idea, but for those who want a puppy, save the money. Saving even $100 a month will mean that you can buy a $1500 puppy in a year and a half. Often, with a good breeder, you will have to be on a waitlist for this long anyway.


I agree with this wholeheartedly. I'll never understand why someone is willing to spend $1k but can't come up with $1,500. If you can come up w/ $1k, how hard is it to save anouthe $500? You see it on the Maltese forum all the time. "I want a well bred female, but am only willing to spend $1,500." Well, a pet quality, female Maltese puppy is more likely to cost $2,000 to $2,500. Again, how hard is it too say another $500 to $1000. A dog is going to be with you for over a decade, hopefully close to two. You have to look at it as an investment.

I will say, that I don't believe in paying big bucks to anyone who isn't putting that money right back into their breeding program. I think it's attrocious to pay $1500 for a dog who's parents have never been shown and aren't properly health testing. Prices should be based on the time and money a breeder spent producing the litter. I find it particularly disgusting when someone ask big money for "Champion Bloodline" dog. I.E. "I didn't put any work into showing my dogs, but I want to profit from someone else work."


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I will say, that I don't believe in paying big bucks to anyone who isn't putting that money right back into their breeding program. I think it's attrocious to pay $1500 for a dog who's parents have never been shown and aren't properly health testing. Prices should be based on the time and money a breeder spent producing the litter. I find it particularly disgusting when someone ask big money for "Champion Bloodline" dog. I.E. "I didn't put any work into showing my dogs, but I want to profit from someone else work."


This I agree with 100%. Just because someone is riding on the coattails of someone else's hard work and the money that they spent on showing their stud dog, doesn't give them the right to ask the same amount of money for their puppies as the actual breeder of that stud dog. I think that it's insane that someone that owns basically pets will turn around and use someone's champion stud and think that they will profit off of that and ask $1500 for a "show prospect" puppy when they have not one single show dog to their name. That is all about money and they are trying to profit from their dogs.

As far as saving up the money, I've said that even if I were wealthy and had that kind of money I still wouldn't spend it. Just because something is priced more doesn't make it better. There is absolutely no reason a Cavalier or a Maltese should be priced out the way they are. People do it because they want wealthy people to own their dogs and that's it. I understand that to some degree but not everyone is wealthy. We are a middle class family that takes excellent care of our pets because regardless, we are still owning them as pets and they should be treated as such. My limit is $800. If I can pay under that I will and I will shop around just like I would for any large purchase to find what I'm looking for and find someone willing to work with me with what I've got. No way I'm saving up more than $1000 to spend on a puppy.


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## T o d d (Sep 25, 2007)

I think Moose was $1000 I forget.... but I know it was not over priced. I had hard spending that much I can't imagine $2k or $2500 for a pet. Next poodle we get will probably be a rescue.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

I find this article to be very informative; Cost of Owning a Dog, Veterinary & Aquatic Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1671&aid=1543 Personally, I'm of the notion that If I do my homework and believe in the choice I made for a show dog or even a pet whom could easily be a show dog, health testing a must! and I've learned the pedigree and background and believe it is the right direction for the breed then I am willing to pay the price and I'm also very willing to wait. Alot of people when they go looking for a puppy want to get one now, they don't want to wait.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> This I agree with 100%. Just because someone is riding on the coattails of someone else's hard work and the money that they spent on showing their stud dog, doesn't give them the right to ask the same amount of money for their puppies as the actual breeder of that stud dog. I think that it's insane that someone that owns basically pets will turn around and use someone's champion stud and think that they will profit off of that and ask $1500 for a "show prospect" puppy when they have not one single show dog to their name. That is all about money and they are trying to profit from their dogs.
> 
> As far as saving up the money, I've said that even if I were wealthy and had that kind of money I still wouldn't spend it. Just because something is priced more doesn't make it better.  There is absolutely no reason a Cavalier or a Maltese should be priced out the way they are. People do it because they want wealthy people to own their dogs and that's it. I understand that to some degree but not everyone is wealthy. We are a middle class family that takes excellent care of our pets because regardless, we are still owning them as pets and they should be treated as such. My limit is $800. If I can pay under that I will and I will shop around just like I would for any large purchase to find what I'm looking for and find someone willing to work with me with what I've got. No way I'm saving up more than $1000 to spend on a puppy.


I been going to AKC dog shows for over ten years and it really just depends on what breed you are trying to get. I have seen show dogs from $500- to the skies the limit. 

Like someone has already stated Poodles are price fairly high. I am not going to come on here and say you won't find a poodle for $800 but it will be hard to find someone who is showing dogs and is not charging $1000 plus. You have to be very patient with your findings. I highly advise going to dog shows and speaking with breeders. Since our economy is down I have notice a lot of breeders are trying to sell lower than usual. You can also see if the breeder can work a deal or something with you. 

Our boy Enzo is a UKC CH. I have nothing against UKC but I think the point system needs to be revised. If no poodles show up in your area for a UKC show your dog can still become a CH. IMO this does not give you an idea on the quality of your dog since he or she has not won over another poodle. 

I would like to GR Enzo to prove his quality but this means me driving more than 5 hrs to some north CA shows. I will probably going to some far UKC shows soon.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I been going to AKC dog shows for over ten years and it really just depends on what breed you are trying to get. I have seen show dogs from $500- to the skies the limit.
> 
> Like someone has already stated Poodles are price fairly high. I am not going to come on here and say you won't find a poodle for $800 but it will be hard to find someone who is showing dogs and is not charging $1000 plus. You have to be very patient with your findings. I highly advise going to dog shows and speaking with breeders. Since our economy is down I have notice a lot of breeders are trying to sell lower than usual. You can also see if the breeder can work a deal or something with you.
> 
> ...


Yeah I think I'll start in UKC only because I need to build my own confidence first and then if we title and I get opinions from others that suggest I'd be okay in AKC then we'll move onto that. My UKC shows aren't too far but far enough. We have a lot of AKC shows pretty close to home but there is a lot of driving in Texas regardless of what you are going to do because the state is so huge.


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## T o d d (Sep 25, 2007)

KPoos said:


> Yeah I think I'll start in UKC only because I need to build my own confidence first and then if we title and I get opinions from others that suggest I'd be okay in AKC then we'll move onto that. My UKC shows aren't too far but far enough. We have a lot of AKC shows pretty close to home but there is a lot of driving in Texas regardless of what you are going to do because the state is so huge.


That sounds like a valid plan to me!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> Yeah I think I'll start in UKC only because I need to build my own confidence first and then if we title and I get opinions from others that suggest I'd be okay in AKC then we'll move onto that. My UKC shows aren't too far but far enough. We have a lot of AKC shows pretty close to home but there is a lot of driving in Texas regardless of what you are going to do because the state is so huge.


Yes this is what we did , we started with UKC and then we had 2 pro poodle breeders evaluate Enzo for us at a AKC show. So now we have been showing AKC. It will be hard to show AKC since Enzo is a red but we have gotten lots of encouragement from many other poodle breeders at the shows. 

Just make sure you keep your pups coat up even though you are showing in UKC. It will be easier to transition to AKC if you do. UKC allows sporting clip its the easiest clip but just keep you pup in a puppy clip like I said so you can show him or her in AKC.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Yes this is what we did , we started with UKC and then we had 2 pro poodle breeders evaluate Enzo for us at a AKC show. So now we have been showing AKC. It will be hard to show AKC since Enzo is a red but we have gotten lots of encouragement from many other poodle breeders at the shows.
> 
> Just make sure you keep your pups coat up even though you are showing in UKC. It will be easier to transition to AKC if you do. UKC allows sporting clip its the easiest clip but just keep you pup in a puppy clip like I said so you can show him or her in AKC.


Yeah I've been doing some reading on banding the dog's hair. I have two girls, human girls, so I know what banding is like.LOL What's going to be difficult for me is the scissoring for certain pros and cons of the dog's structure. I will need help with that but I'm lucky to have some people close by that can help with that.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> Yeah I've been doing some reading on banding the dog's hair. I have two girls, human girls, so I know what banding is like.LOL What's going to be difficult for me is the scissoring for certain pros and cons of the dog's structure. I will need help with that but I'm lucky to have some people close by that can help with that.


Yeah my sister is a groomer but we have never had a show poodle before. When we went to the Akc show on Friday Enzo's clip did not look like any of the other pups lol all well we are trying we will get better as we go.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Yeah my sister is a groomer but we have never had a show poodle before. When we went to the Akc show on Friday Enzo's clip did not look like any of the other pups lol all well we are trying we will get better as we go.


You know what I like about you? That you are willing to put yourself out there and try anyway. That's what I'm going to have to do and it's not going to be easy for me since I don't usually do stuff like that. It's about trying the best you can but really the dog needs to be judged on the dog not the hair cut.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> You know what I like about you? That you are willing to put yourself out there and try anyway. That's what I'm going to have to do and it's not going to be easy for me since I don't usually do stuff like that. It's about trying the best you can but really the dog needs to be judged on the dog not the hair cut.


Yes all you can do is try people will talk but let them at least you are trying ! People always ask us at the AKC shows why did you get a red it will be hard to finish..... Well Enzo is our pet win or loose it not about winning for us its for fun and practice. We will probably use a pro once he becomes an adult. But since is still a puppy there is not reason to use a pro handler it is hard for puppies to win BOB anyways.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

KPoos said:


> It's about trying the best you can but really the dog needs to be judged on the dog not the hair cut.


That sounds so noble, but it is really not true. In coated breeds, hair is a huge component in showing dogs. 

You sound like you really do want to show. Are you thinking about breeding in the future? If you want to get into the whole conformation showing thing you really need to spend a bit more money and get a better quality poodle. Otherwise, it will be an uphill battle and you will start with a less than stellar foundation bitch.

There is a junior in our area who wanted to show poodles. Because she and her family did not have much money, they bought a poodle from one of the worst breeders in our area. Not only is this poodle pet quality, it is bad pet quality. My heart breaks for this girl because she loses every time she goes out and the Poodle community doesn't know what to say to her. It is not a matter of fixing grooming a little here or handling a little differently there. Her dog is horrible. Even worse, her scum bag breeder is not there to mentor her and help her out (as though he could). There is a special place in Hell for someone who sells a crap dog to an eager junior!

This girl would have been much better off developing a relationship with a well known breeder. If she had offered herself as personal slave, she not only would have learned the ropes, she would have ingratiated herself and shown her commitment to the sport. In that sort of situation, it is not uncommon for a breeder to strike a deal.... I'll give you a dog to show and we can work out payment later, usually in terms of litters back etc. 

BTW... you don't have to be a junior to do this.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think that's awful that someone would do that to a little girl. There are many unscrupulous people in the world including people that show their dogs. Just because someone shows doesn't mean that they are going to do right by you and just because someone breeds pets doesn't mean they will screw you over. But you are right, spending time with the breeder is the best thing because it's important to see their dogs and how they handle them and what they are breeding. It's easy to put up a website and show off all the pretty dogs you have in the best pictures you can take.

And I'm not trying to be noble, just real. I do realize that the origin of the cut was to serve a purpose but it's gotten out of hand and there are many people that would like that changed. I doubt it will happen in my life time but maybe one day it will happen.


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

Well I paid slightly more than 1500 for our "pet-quality" from a reputable breeder who is also offering life-time mentorship, etc. 

(Non-standard poodle) People who ask what we paid seem to freak out a bit, but I looked around for several months and this price didn't seem outrageous to me. And I selected the breeder b/c of merit and their philosophy before I saw the cost. 

I have no idea what makes Bella "Pet Quality" over show-quality, but I do know and have records of the extensive health-testing that was done on the parents so I'm not worried. I do see her tail curls up slightly but they also dind't crop it much, so if they had it wouldn't. I am sure there are other things, but as long as she's healthy with an easy-going temperament that is what was important to us. 

It's almost like the situation where if people under-price their "product" (in this case, dogs) I wonder why and what is it about their's which makes them worth less. I'd have been quite worried if she'd cost 1/2 as much as the other standards I saw for sale, that it was some kind of massive-breeding operation that had economies of scale.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Purple Poodle said:


> Not to go completly off topic but whats the stigma around raising a puppy insted of getting an older puppy or adult dog? I got my Standard at 11 months old and she is awesome, smart and well behaved.
> COLOR]




Adult dogs are easier, and when we started looking for a second standard adult dog was what we both agree'd to get and we looked and spoke to two seperate poodle rescues for a long time. Upon further reflection though I, (I will say I here because at first hubby did NOT agree with me), decided that a younger puppy would be the way to go. Within our family we have numerous caged aniamls as well as two cats and two small dogs. We got lucky with Jazz, we brought her in and she clicked right away and never have we had a problem with the small dogs or cats with her. That could have been a disaster though and was probably not my most well thought out addition to the family. Jazz cannot be trusted even in the same room with the small animals though and we have to take care. This is why we decided on a puppy, though we got a slightly older puppy I think she was 14 weeks when we brought her home. I wanted the dog to, like my other dogs have always done, grow up around the small animals to minimize the risks of any issue's that would threaten their safety. Sure I could probably teach a adult dog to leave a cage alone but it's unlikely I could eliminate the problem entirely. Hunting dogs as they are it's just in their nature and with an already developed habit of chase and kill (which Jazz has) I will never be able to trust her entirely. 

Another consideration on the puppy VS the adult rescue (I did not find an acceptable adult available from a breeder at the time or I could have avoided this problem entirely) was registration. I was told Jazz was registered and would come with papers when we adopted her. Weeellll.... it didn't occure to me to be specific on who she was registered with and I ended up with a Cont. KC "registered" spayed adult that I couldn't prove was spayed and still cannot without doing an actual spay proceedure. So Jazz is not able to get an AKC PAL number and do obedience and agility as planned. Bummer. Jazz is better suited to therapy work anyway so that works out, but I didn't want any such issues with Saleen.


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## aki (Jul 19, 2009)

Purple Poodle said:


> Not to go completly off topic but whats the stigma around raising a puppy insted of getting an older puppy or adult dog? I got my Standard at 11 months old and she is awesome, smart and well behaved.
> 
> Puppies are hard, sure they can be fun but so can an 11 mobnth old puppy! Or in my moms case a 2 year old dog. She adopted him from an old woman who never let him out in the yard and she said he loved his toys. Well now that he can go out side he LOVES the water and playing with the other dogs and riding in the car and just beeing a Poodle he barly even touches his toys now, he'd rather be outside.
> 
> ...


I feel if the dog is in my hands during those really crucial weeks, I have a better chance of having a balanced dog that suits me. I want to put a lot of effort into making sure my dog is socialized and desensitized to the on goings of my life. You may be lucky and get a rescue which fits your lifestyle, and you might be unlucky and get one that doesn't. With a breeder you pretty much know what you are getting in temperament and health. With a puppy you are there during those early stages, preparing your dog for it's future with you and all of the factors in your life.

I want my first *personal* poodle experience to be an enjoyable one, and with a puppy from a breeder I feel I have a better chance of avoiding a lot of those unknowns that you can get with an adult rescue.

That doesn't mean I haven't been looking at my local poodle rescue and humane society for a poodle though. Before I decided to go with a breeder this time around I looked at a poodle rescue and around my pound and humane society. I haven't seen many purebred poodles, and the ones I have seen didn't meet some of my needs, or I didn't meet some of theirs. So I opted for a breeder so I can get exactly what I want.

I don't think it's selfish of me to get a purebred puppy from a breeder for the first time in my life. I've always had mostly rescues, and I've never owned a dog of my very own. I know some people may look down on me for not adopting, but it's my decision ultimately and without breeders we wouldn't have a breed.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

All I can tell you is that I will not get an adult dog again because although I am very proud of us for helping out Ginger, she's not fit for our family because she wasn't raised by us and her personality is already developed now. Now she needs a more low key environment with a more low key dog to play with or not a dog at all.


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

LOL Most breeders paid a great deal for their Poodles...or paid very little and bought better quality as they could afford to and proved to reputable breeders that they have what it took... but in the end we all strive for better and better and well....better pedigree'd poodles do cost $1000.00 $2500.00. 

What constitutes a better pedigree or quality of Poodle is totally up to you to decide....but most consider health clearances and titles and of course, when doing solid reds...a pedigree with no white or silver (to name a couple colours) to be worth more than a pedigree containing fading gene or parti factor (if doing solid) and all other things considered equal. Then look for the temperament "you" want... Personally I wanted calm and wow ... hard to find.... well the list of breeders having what you want gets shorter. 

You wonder why breeders hesitate to sell full breeding rights... well reputable breeders are concerned what will happen to their hard earned lines and reputation. They spent YEARS doing research, begging and courting other breeders for YEARS, getting bank loans or borrowing from family members to pay for their show/breeding puppy. 

Then someone comes along and says "you don't know me, but I'm a good person, I want what you worked so hard for years to get and I want to do what I want with that puppy" NOW I know you would not use those exact words but that is what a breeder will hear.

AND I'm sure you can do the math... it is like the Old hair shampoo commercial...
Breeder sells to you...
then you sell to someone for breeding =
then they sell to people for breeding and so on and so on...
within a very short time (2 years) that Breeders hard earned lines and reputation are not so rare and unique and or in demand...mater of fact their reputation could be really damaged because of people YOU had sold to taking their lines and not caring about health testing... ect next thing you know the breeder has a reputation for breeding hyper, small unhealthy poodles...just because someone else took their lines and ill bred. 

So yes... I'm afraid that REPUTABLE breeders do not take selling a puppy with Breeding Rights lightly. 

I guess it is like applying for a job and them saying "you don't have enough experince" and you saying "well how am I supposed to get that experience if you don't hire me"...

think about it...

Myself I was told this time and time again... You are a newbie and I wont' sell to you.

This one breeder I even offered co-ownership and $5,000.00 and no go... she just valued her lines that much.
So I showed up at dog shows and helped her out... I took handling lessons
I scooped poop and groomed behind the scenes. I basically Volunteered until I proved to her:
1. I was serious
2. I was in for the long haul
3. I learned what all was REALLY involved in the hobby

1.5 years later she offered me the best male that she had who I did go on to champion at 6 months of age... 

BUT...if you do not wish to invest that kind of time or effort on a breeder and especially if you are far away from the breeder you choose...just think of ways to address their concerns... and address them upfront.

Yes i want to breed and here is the direction I wish to go in.
the resulting pups will be spayed or neutered before going home.
I will buy on a co-ownership that I would like terminated after I title the dog 

BASIC stuff... 
Just think about what YOU are willing to offer the breeder. See where they are coming from.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

toomoxy, you have nailed it!!! That is exactly what I've heard from long time breeders and not just poodle breeders, every breed out there! I've heard and seen horror stories about nice Amish people and the puppy mills they've had in Eastern Pennsylvannia. They treated the dogs like pigs and chickens, raising them to sell through brokers with really nice web sites. No breeder trying to better the breed wants to see their lines dessimated by the likes of puppy mills and people whom just want to get a few bucks back for what they spent in a dog. They want them to be loved and adored by a family! It's sad to see what foul tongues and gossip about someone can do on these boards.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, I get what you are saying and I don't despute what you are saying at all. I know this is going to sound snobby but I would never scoop someone's dog poop to prove I'm worthy of their dog. That's just me though, I don't scoop poop at my own house. And no unfortunately I don't have breeders close enough to me to mentor me. But the advice about what I want to do and trying to be up front about it and working it out with a breeder is the best advice I've ever heard.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

I see you're from Fla too Aki, I bet we looked into some of the same rescue's here in the south.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

You guys are dead on about breeders being careful about selling pups w/ full breeding rights. IMO, some breeders need to be more careful. Several puppymills and people that sell through the newpaper advertise "champion bloodlines." Those bloodlines were not guarded as carefully as they should've been. Just recently a (non poodle)breeder with several top bloodlines in her program decided to delve into crossbreeding. She agreed to breed a male she purchased from a very respected breeder with a mixed breed female (basically of unknown origin) owned by a friend. If I were the breeder that sold her the male, I would be livid and on the phone w/ my lawyer. I can't imagine betraying someone that way, but many people will if the $ is right.


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## aki (Jul 19, 2009)

WonderPup said:


> I see you're from Fla too Aki, I bet we looked into some of the same rescue's here in the south.


I'm sure we have! Not too many down here.

But yes, I agree that breeders have a right to be weary who the sell their pups to with breeding rights. That's why I think spay/neuter contracts and co-ownership are so important. One wrong person can ruin the reputation of a line, and essentially degrade the breed itself.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

aki said:


> I'm sure we have! Not too many down here.
> 
> But yes, I agree that breeders have a right to be weary who the sell their pups to with breeding rights. That's why I think spay/neuter contracts and co-ownership are so important. One wrong person can ruin the reputation of a line, and essentially degrade the breed itself.


You do realize how many "wrong persons" own decent dogs right? I mean the breed isn't degraded because of those people. You guys make me laugh with how serious you take all of this. For one wrong person to come into someone's well established kennel and "ruin it", the kennel itself was on shakey ground. I mean there needs to be strict rules on who they allow to breed and what stud dogs are bred to what but good grief one wrong breeder ruining the breed itself is a little much.


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## aki (Jul 19, 2009)

I guess you don't understand how delicate a breed actually is. If the good lines get diluted what do we have to work with? Nothing, except sub-par quality lines which may more likely then not carry health issues, temperament issues, and that don't conform to the breed standard.

Wrong people can own decent dogs, in fact they can own fabulous dogs. When they ruin a good line we have less to work with, and less diversity which can increase the amount of health issues that are already present in the breed. This is the case for any breed these days. Some people breed just for conformation and don't think about the health or temperament of the dog, some breed for money, some don't know what they are doing, some let accidents happen and we get mixed breeds.

Not to mention the horrible conditions most puppy millers subject their dogs to. Doesn't the breeder have the right to make sure the dogs they produce go to a safe and loving home, not some 2 by 4 cage?

If you really want to show, find a breeder that will work with you. Go for co-ownership if you have to.


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

So let me get this straight, 
1)You want a show quality standard poodle, not an adult
2) you are not spending more than $800
3)you have no experience handling or caring for copious amounts of hair
4)you do not have amentor in place
5)you don't have the time to do an internship with a handler(family and such)

GOOD breeders care deeply for their breed. They eat sleep and breathe dogs. 
I have been showing for ONE YEAR. Its not an easy job, coat care sucks. I have spent more money in grooming stuff than my most expensive dog. 
you may or may not find a breeder with a puppy for sale at $800 or less, who knows. but in that first year you will spend TONS of money on grooming supplies,then you will have to rebuy all of them because they either break or you end up getting the wrong thing, or you just plain don't like it. show fees are 16-35 dollars depending on a few different factors(age of dog, second entries, venue, type of show)

then there are the vet bills, the "stuff" (toys leads crates ect) handling classes help alot. then there is the temptation of getting the dog professionally groomed once in awhile


these are all posibilities, there are ways to own a showdog on a shoestring, but dont expect to get a quality dog for next to nothing, and not have to do anything in return, be it give a puppy back, co-own, or scoop some poo


I am not, by any means trying to dissuade you, but I would suggest:

go to a few shows, get in good with a few handlers or breeders, or better yet breeder/owner/handlers. offer to ex dogs, ask questions, ask if you can watch them groom, ask how often it needs to be done, ask for tips on handling ect ect 

explain your situation to them say "I want to pay no more than X amount, would you be willing to work with me, or remain on the papers until he/she is finished" open your mind to a strict contract. 

someone should be willing to help you out.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

There is a big difference between someone getting limited papers from a reputable breeder and a breeder just charging for color and is a BYB. 

Most of the breeders I was referring to are BYB with 2-4k dogs they do not health test or show or work and they say limited papers. This is what I mean they are putting a monopoly on the market.

Of course a reputable breeder will give limited because they actually care about the breed.


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## dbrazzil (Nov 10, 2009)

*showy attitude*



KPoos said:


> I don't disagree with that entirely but I think that more often than not, show quality puppies are placed in nonshow homes as pets because there aren't enough show homes for puppies that can go out and win in the show ring. We are talking about standard poodles here and it is just in their nature to be outgoing in temperament and have that showy attitude. I have yet to see one that has been socialized correctly that is extremely shy and introverted. While I do think that there are some individuals that are just more laid back and would prefer not to have to be "pretty" for people, I think overall, poodles are just a wonderful show breed (temperament wise not coat).


I am new to the dog shows and I have a nice toy from a reputatable breeder. She has nice qualities about her, but she does not always want to have that showy attitude in the show ring. I purchased her when she was 9 months old, and I have been working with her and a experienced trainer for six months now. We have been going to 1-2 shows a month and I finally asked a judge at my last show recently what I could do better. She commented that my girl needed to have the show attitude that poodles are known for. I have tried several suggestions from friends, and my trainer. I am becomming frustrated because I know she can show, but it is hit and miss. I am really wanting to show her myself, but I am wondering if I should send her with a handler to get her where she will be more consistent to show for me.


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

Dbrazzil. What you need to do is figure out how to get that personality out of your dog. Many people think you can just get in the ring and the dog either shines or it doesn't. This isn't true. Professional handlers figure out what they have to do to get their dog to shine in the ring. I would approach handlers. Ask them to watch you take your dog down and back and give you pointers. Sometimes just shortening the lead can do the trick. Othertimes it is the use of a favored toy. It could be how you start your run around the ring. Some dogs need a sudden "LET"S GO" start and you bolt. Others need a slow start. Professionals spend a lot of time figuring out what makes the dog in their hands tick. Go to the handlers, not the judge. Another reason I avoid the judge's advice is because it is so subjective. One judge may tell you one thing and another something totally opposite.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Dbrazzil, there is one thing I've learned recently and that is dog showing is for some people and it's not for other people. I think that applies to the dogs as well. When looking at conformation dog showing it reminds me of little girl pagents. Some little girls enjoy it and are very talented and just expressive because it's something they love. Other girls are pushed into it by their parents and they do it because they are forced to do it. You can see it in their eyes even though they are smiling it's not something they want to be doing and they shouldn't have to. I feel that's the same thing with dogs. Sometimes some just love showing off for someone and other times the dog loves just being with it's owner and pleasing the owner. Then there are times that the dog just hates it and would rather be home being a couch potato or maybe it's more of a performance type dog and would be happier doing that. I feel that you should never have to "force" out a dog's personality in the ring. If they love it they love it, if they don't they don't. Maybe the dog is picking up your anxiety being in the show ring? They are very intuitive and Cesar Millan says that they can feel tension down the end of the lead. There are a lot of things you can do with your dog besides conformation showing, good luck figuring it out.


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## dbrazzil (Nov 10, 2009)

Fur Elite said:


> Dbrazzil. What you need to do is figure out how to get that personality out of your dog. Many people think you can just get in the ring and the dog either shines or it doesn't. This isn't true. Professional handlers figure out what they have to do to get their dog to shine in the ring. I would approach handlers. Ask them to watch you take your dog down and back and give you pointers. Sometimes just shortening the lead can do the trick. Othertimes it is the use of a favored toy. It could be how you start your run around the ring. Some dogs need a sudden "LET"S GO" start and you bolt. Others need a slow start. Professionals spend a lot of time figuring out what makes the dog in their hands tick. Go to the handlers, not the judge. Another reason I avoid the judge's advice is because it is so subjective. One judge may tell you one thing and another something totally opposite.


Thanks for the advice. Do you know of any handlers that live in Arkansas? I would prefer someone that shows poodles and knows how to groom one. I am still learning the grooming part, and I have asked lots of questions from some of the handlers I have approached. Most have been very helpful, but they live too far away for me to get together with them. I have different people take pictures for me at the shows. I can tell a big difference in the grooming and stacking of my poodle which has improved much over the past 6 months. I just need someone like you mentioned to give me pointers. :cheer2:


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## dbrazzil (Nov 10, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Dbrazzil, there is one thing I've learned recently and that is dog showing is for some people and it's not for other people. I think that applies to the dogs as well. When looking at conformation dog showing it reminds me of little girl pagents. Some little girls enjoy it and are very talented and just expressive because it's something they love. Other girls are pushed into it by their parents and they do it because they are forced to do it. You can see it in their eyes even though they are smiling it's not something they want to be doing and they shouldn't have to. I feel that's the same thing with dogs. Sometimes some just love showing off for someone and other times the dog loves just being with it's owner and pleasing the owner. Then there are times that the dog just hates it and would rather be home being a couch potato or maybe it's more of a performance type dog and would be happier doing that. I feel that you should never have to "force" out a dog's personality in the ring. If they love it they love it, if they don't they don't. Maybe the dog is picking up your anxiety being in the show ring? They are very intuitive and Cesar Millan says that they can feel tension down the end of the lead. There are a lot of things you can do with your dog besides conformation showing, good luck figuring it out.


Thankyou, I think we are both a little anxious. I have been told this before about how your dog can pick up on your feelings. I have the best attitude when I go into the ring, but sometimes I get a little nervous. hwell:


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

As an amateur, it will probably take you a looooong time to see success in the ring. I am not sure how toys are though. Minis aren't as bad as standards. A friend of mine told me it takes an amateur 3 plus years to finally get recognition in the ring. With me it has been true! It can get discouraging, but as long as you are having fun and learning each time you go out there, you will improve. Even when I get dumped, I find pointers on what I need to work on and then am all the more motivated to do better next time.

The professional handlers have a HUGE advantage. The best time to get a handler to help you is after ring time. Approach them and ask them if they have some time to give you some pointers. They may be wrapping ears and banding topknots so ask them when it might be convenient. As an amateur, your dog has to look absolutely top knotch out there. A professional can make a lesser dog look outstanding whereas your excellent dog may only look mediocre due to the grooming and your presentation skills. Remember, they have years and years of practice up against your one! Buckle in and just try to have fun.


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