# Toy Poodle Breeding



## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

Ok, what I am going to be asking recently got me booted from a FB page for not agreeing, and while some of them may be here, I still have questions regarding the breeding of toy poodles.

This past year as I've researched poodles in my search for a Spoo, I've seen many postings regarding the size of toy poodles, seems that a lot are "oversized".

I have shown and bred cockers and there are height limits on them, and in no way would I ever have considered breeding two oversized dogs, no matter what their pedigree/health clearances are, because odds are that they would produce over sized cockers and then you just add the undesireable size to the gene pool.

The poodle standard simply states that toys are under 10": mini's are 10"-15" and standards are poodles over 15".

Unfortunately a lot of "toys" are registered as toys before they are full size so there are a lot of 11"+ "toys" out there.

Ok, with all the concern that pet owners/puppy buyers have over the size of their toys; why in the world would anyone breed two so-called "toy" poodles that are 11" or bigger together to produce puppies that they intend to register as toys? You are increasing the odds in the toy gene pool of getting oversize dogs, you are increasing the odds of new puppy owners being disappointed "I so wanted Poochie to be small, but he is 9 mos and already 11" etc. 

Of course most of these people are probably not members of the breed's parent club, but how do they feel about this? How do responsible breeders who do their best to adhere to the standard feel about this? I am sorry, but to me it is so wrong and so misleading to sell puppies that came from technically miniature poodles as toys.

Years ago cocker spaniels were getting smaller, they were beautiful, but especially the bitches were oh so petite. At the American Spaniel Club's annual meeting the President let the Judges and breeders have it in his annual speech. He chastised the Judges for putting up these dogs, the breeders for producing them without remembering what the Cocker Spaniel was bred for. Could these dogs retrieve a pheasant or quail? Probably couldn't even hold a parakeet in their mouth. He told them to get back on track with the breed.

IMHO someone needs to tell that to poodle breeders. Or is the AKC Standard simply a suggestion?


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Well, my favorite Toy Poodle breeder breeds in-size toys to in-size, but still she will sometimes get undersized or oversized because the genes are still there.
I have heard of some Tpoo breeders who will breed an undersize male to an oversize bitch, because they feel that the larger bitch can carry more puppies, and have an easier whelp, and they hope that the diverse sizes will balance out to an in-size, but I think that may be how the under and oversize genes get carried along. I doubt that anyone breeding for show would ever breed two over-sized tpoos though. Maybe if they thought that they both had something REALLY special to contribute, but not likely...


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

And nobody would ever consider an oversize toy to be a mini - they have a very different bone structure and look then a Mini, even if they are the same height.


----------



## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

But the standard is based on size, not bone structure. And it was suggested to this person to find a smaller dog for breeding and their reply was that they had a 12" "toy" they were going to use. So, their intent was breeding mini size toys.

Sorry to me, it is by the standard. 10" and under is toy, anything over is a mini. And it is no wonder so many people who believe they are purchasing toy poodles are disappointed when their dog grows to 11"-12". Perhaps the standard should be changed to go by "bone structure" not size?


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

When I was young, the UK KC register would still register toy poodles by size - if a litter contained some very small pups and some larger, they could be registered as toys or minis accordingly. The register was closed in the 1970s, so that toys could only be registered as such if both parents were toys, but the separation of the two sizes is very recent, and the cut off for how big a toy can be varies round the world, so it is inevitable that most lines will carry genes for some variability in size. Personally I applaud breeders for aiming for the top end of the size range - dogs are likely to be healthier, more robust, of better structure, and have fewer problems whelping. "Large" toys are an excellent size for pets - too big to be a handbag dog, perhaps, but still easy to lift, while being big enough to run and play with bigger dogs and with children without too much fear of accidents. 

As ever, the size of the parents is a good indication of the eventual size of the offspring, together with buying from a reputable breeder who will be honest about the probable adult size of the puppies. I suspect that many of the people who "are disappointed when their dog grows to 11"-12"" may have been seduced by the advertisements for tiny teacup pups - an extremely dubious market place, as we all know.


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

As Tiny said, within a litter you can get different sizes. When looking for my toy, I found a reputable breeder. I told her I was looking for a white female toy poodle, with a wonderful personality, and if she happened to get a little one, that would be the one for me. She had a bitch that was pregnant at the time. When the pups were born, there were three, two females and a male. Both the bitch and the dog were in size, one a champion, the other a Grand champion. 

I was sold the little one. The other two she kept to show. Both the other pups ended up oversized. The male was quite a bit oversized. Misha is 9.5 inches (ish). 

Also different lines can grow at different rates. A pup that is charted to be within size at 8 weeks (like Misha's littermates) may grow later or more than expected. 

A breeder should be able to make a very educated guess on puppy size, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way.


----------



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Yes, this is totally confusing & everyone is going yo have different opinions. Toys & Mini not only have different bone density but for me there are different health issues. The Toys & Minis have PRA/PRcd, LP BUT they differ with Minis having Hip, Legg-Calve Perthes disease & Epilepsy ad well. For that reason I prefer to risk the Toy Lines. But I like my Toys larger than 10" so that I can do plenty of activities with them, rough house with larger dogs & kids. For that reason I look into Toy lines with Oversized Toys. Oversized Toys can produce in size Toys. My 10" Echo is from an 11" Sire. I used that Sire with my 12" OT/Mini. Louisa had 2 pups. I wanted pups in the 11"-12" range & nice & light like the parents. I am hoping that my Lotus will get to be that size, though she is smaller than her Dam at the same age, so more on track of the smaller sire. Her sister though most likely will end up Insize Toy.


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Very small toys are fragile and can have many health issues. It is not uncommon for a breeder to have some toys that are a little over breed standard. I specifically wanted a tall toy. Swizzle is in breed standard but if he was a little over I would not mind as I am not showing him for confirmation. FJM is right, I look at a breeder that goes to the taller end of the range as breeding better dogs This trend toward very tiny toys is dangerous for the breed IMO.


----------



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Loves there is no reason why you should have been kicked off a FB group for asking this question. It is a very good one with many answers & not a right or wrong.

I think greater confusion comes in when Breeders cross the Toy x Mini, Mini x Standard. Then you need to go by height alone.


----------



## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

I guess I see it totally along the heights in the Standard. If it is over 10" then it is a mini. I am definately not in favor of breeding smaller dogs, just surprised at how so many poodles that are over 10" are still considered toys and how people breed the oversized ones without a second thought because there are so many pet owners out there who are disappointed that their toy poodle is "oversized". If it was just Toy Poodle, 10" and under and not followed by mini's or anything. Then yes, it would be an oversized toy. But in my mind once you go above the height limit, then you are into Mini-land. Same with 17" "mini's. They are simply small Standards. Oh well, that is how I feel about it and since I do not have a toy, will never breed toys, I'll never understand the thinking. Unless it is simply because "toys" are easier to sell than larger sizes so saying the dog is a "toy" means faster selling and more $$$. And I am sure that is the reason for many.


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Toys and minis are different, a toy has a distinctive look as does a mini. If I saw an oversized toy that was in the size range of a mini it would still have the look of a toy. Dogs are living beings. You can breed two toys in breed standard and still end up with oversized toys.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I've been looking around at the AKC site, Poodle Club of America and other places, _trying _to find, searching and searching for something written about the differences between the mini and the toy other than height. And I can't find anything. All the descriptions ever say is the ONLY differences in the various sizes is height. Do you have anything that officially recognizes that there is a difference between toys and minis other than height?

When I was at the shows recently, I saw lots of Poodles....all sizes and I don't really see a difference other than height. They look the same to me except for that difference. But maybe I'm not discerning enough.


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Your question really challenged me. I am not knowledgable enough to break it down; it is more of a case I know it when I see it. Yesterday afternoon for example I had an obedience class. The lady next to me had a red poodle the same size as Swizzle. Even though they are very close in height it looked like a mini to me. I asked her and it is an undersized mini. There is a certain lightness of bone, a delicacy in the face but can I break this down into quantifiables? No.


----------



## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

I think it is similar to a fancy Shetland compared to a Saddlebred, at first glance their photos can look similar but for each to "look right" they have to have different proportions. The same holds true for the poodles each variety has their own set of proportions that they keep regardless of how big or small they grow. Once your eye learns those proportions you can tell by just looking if it is a big toy or a small mini. And this is why folks say that mini x standard crosses often "look wrong" instead of an eye pleasing set of proportions you get a mix that just looks off. The true Moyen have their own set of proportions giving them that just slightly different look then the other sizes.


----------



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I think it is called the Poodle History Project. I will have to go look but lots of great info. Toys are NOT bred down Standards. Toys have a different history. I also believe that what we consider Toy today was not around. The Mini of today was the "Toy" size. Also in history the Toy/Mini was used as a "Truffle hunter" as were pigs. But dogs have softer paws. These Poodles were often crossed with local Terriers to get a better "Truffle" dog. So some Mini lines have Terrier heritage, some Toys have "white"Cuban type, Malta type etc... in their bloodlines. If it was simple that Toys & Minis were bred down Standards then they should have the same look. But history tells us a different story. Therefore I don't think we can just say it is a "height" only difference. It really get's confusing & I think "Height" only is when one starts crossing the sizes together then you can only go by height.

I will find the link.


----------



## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Yep the genetic studies have shown that mini and toys are related but are almost totally separate genetically from standards. You can see this clearly when you look at the different sets of 
genetic tests that are suggested for each size.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Very interesting. I'd love to read about that!

Hey, here's something: 

http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/poodles.html


----------



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Poodlehistoryproject.com. has great info on the "beginning" of Standard Poodles & the "Diminutive" size Poodle. It is very educational especially the "Parti/Piebald" Poodles. What idiot & followers changed the breed to "Solid" only did the breed a huge disservice.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

3dogs said:


> Poodlehistoryproject.com. has great info on the "beginning" of Standard Poodles & the "Diminutive" size Poodle. It is very educational especially the "Parti/Piebald" Poodles. *What idiot & followers changed the breed to "Solid" only did the breed a huge disservice.*


I agree. It just made more of a bottle neck, smaller gene pool. The parti coloring was the original anyhow, so how they came up with it being a "fault" I will never know...akc anyhow...doesn't fit their ridiculous standard.


----------

