# Buck had a Seizure!



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Early Sunday morning, as I was sorting out the coffee maker, I heard Buck’s claws scribbling at a high rate on the wood floor and a few seconds later my husband started screaming for me. Buck was collapsed on his side, mouth foaming and then his body stiffened. DH comforted him and was convinced that Buck was dying. I saw immediately that it was a seizure, by the time I had raced into the study, he was being frantic again. The whole episode lasted three minutes. 

Buck righted himself quickly. I wiped his face with a washcloth and took him outside. He was tentative at first, not his bold, confident self. He eventually ate some food and then eliminated normally. I decided to wait and see, rather than stress him out for blood tests at the ER. DH is the one who needed a Valium IV.

This morning I made an appointment with his vet and called Buck’s breeder to let her know what had happened and to get advice on the blood work she would recommend. Of course, I had searched PF, Goggled and had my friend’s diagnostic experience with idiopathic vestibular seizures in mind. I was annoyed that my vet lead with a possible diagnosis of epilepsy. Maybe it will turn out to be epilepsy, but there are a lot of other things it could be too: infection, toxins, brain lesions, thyroid, kidney and pancreas, blood sugar issues. Even idiopathic, resolving on its own. I got blood panels on everything. Results tomorrow.

I’m glad my pet insurance will cover most of the expenses including blood testing, neurologist, MRI’s, CAT scans, if needed. I’ve ordered a wheeled dog stretcher and will see if they will pay for a portion of that too. Haven’t figured out that Valium IV for DH. Bless his heart, he loves hard and is really worried. I am magical thinking. PF prayers appreciated.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

How frightening it must have been. I am sending my best prayers that it turns out to be a one of the lesser causes.


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## West U (Jul 30, 2014)

Oh no, I know how scarey that is. We went through seizures with one of our Beagles. I will be in touch very soon.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

I am so sorry! Hopefully you will get an easily treated and definitive diagnosis from the vet. Thinking of you - hugs to poor Buck!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm so sorry, how very scary  Sending prayers for you, your DH, and Buck. Hugs to you all as well.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am holding you all close to my heart. I hope you quickly get an answer and that the problem is easily solved or if not solved, managed.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Oh no, you have done a great job getting prepared for the vet visit. Hopefully it doesn't happen again.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Oh a thousand hugs going your way for all of you. How scary! Feel better Buck.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I am sorry this is happening to Buck. My chihuahua had seizures. It’s very scary but she had them seldom and was always fine afterwards. She needed rest but was back to her old self before the next day.

I hope Buck’s problem is manageable too. Who knows, it might even be a «* one of ».


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

prayers for you and buck - and your husband.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

This was a thread I was loath to open when I read the title.........all I could think is "Oh no! Not Buck!" How terrifying for you and your DH. While you wait for results, I will be putting Buck in my prayers, and I will ask for an extra 'doggy guardian angel' too! Hope you have a peaceful night..........


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## AmyJane (Oct 16, 2017)

That sounds terrifying. Your husband must love Buck an awful lot to be so upset. That's adorable. I really hope that he either doesn't ever have another seizure, or that the find out what caused it and it's something easy to treat.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Hoping all will be well!!:amen:


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hope and prayers for you all


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Thoughts and prayers to you, Buck and DH. How terrifying. I had a spaniel that had seizures that we were able to treat with medication, thankfully.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

How frightening - I hope you get a diagnosis and treatment plan quickly, even if it is simply watchful waiting.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Thanks everyone! It’s so hard to see a beloved pet in distress. The only thing you can do for your pet during an unexpected seizure event is to comfort them and keep them from accidentally harming themselves. Dogs can’t swallow their tongues, a small mercy, so keep your hands away from their chomping, chattering teeth. Guess I am a “seizure alert human”


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Hoping for the best results. Seizures are scary to experience, especially when they are not expected. I'm glad that hubby has you for support.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

Sorry to hear about Buck; what a scary experience! Praying for a quick diagnosis and treatment plan as well as strength for you and DH while you go through the process.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Prayers for all and understand your hubby, that would be me


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Mfmst said:


> Thanks everyone! It’s so hard to see a beloved pet in distress. (


Speaking as one who has had a Grand Mal seizure myself, do know that your dog is not in distress... they are completely out of it... insensible. The seizure will pass, and they'll have no memory of it at all.

And no ill effects.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I am so sorry to hear this. I know first hand how very scary this is. Iris had a similar seizure when she was about 11 years old. I was like your husband and just beside myself. She spent the rest of the day and night at the doggy ER and they sent her home on vallium and phenobarbitol. The research I did and the side effects she had convinced me to wean her off the pheno, immediately.

When I visited my vet he shared that his 2 yr old lab had begun having occasional mild seizures. He also chose to not medicate him, but just watch over him. It is a helpless feeling.

Once medicated on phenobarbitol for any length of time they will need to remain on it for life......no going back.

Iris NEVER had another one and we will never know the cause for the first.

My vet's lab is now 10 yrs old and still has the occasional seizure and is fine otherwise. He is still unmedicated. 

A close friend had a lab mix rescue who was seizuring several times a week when he was about 1 yr old. Tom switched him from "grocery store" brand food to premium kibble and Shadow was down to 1-2 seizures per year after the food change. He lived to be 13 without any serious complications from his seizures.

I know how terrifying is is to watch. I hope for all of you that Buck never has another one and that your husband does not need to be on vallium for the rest of his life......I KNOW how scary this is.

(((Hugs))) to you all.

Cathy and Poppy aka Wild Child


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## StormeeK (Aug 3, 2015)

Oh my goodness, I was so sad to see the title to this thread too! Thinking of you, Buck and DH and hoping for the best outcome.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Oh Mfmst -- I am so sorry. How terrifying. Interesting and helpful input from CB and VQ. I certainly hope that this will be Buck's one and only seizure, as it was for Iris. Praying for you, DH and Buck.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I just saw this. I am so sorry this happened to poor Buck. I hope the results come back negative for any major problems. A few months ago, my dog Happy started pooping blood in the middle of the night. He stopped eating and was very lethargic. We freaked but waited until next morning at our usual vet. They xrayed him and did a full CBC and he came back negative and the issue stopped. His lethargy went away after the antibiotic and iv fluid. I didn’t get 100% closure bc we never found out what it was but our vet said he is going to be fine because it was an isolated incident. It can be so frightening to see at the moment but hopefully the tests can bring closure like VQ’s post.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Oh mfmst, I'm so sorry Buck, your DH and you had to go through this. I hope I would be as amazing as you were in an emergency, your poor DH, it's so hard to see something like that. I'd also take some comfort from what CB and VQ said. Hope all goes well for Buck, and I'll be thinking of you all.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Yikes, poor Buck and poor you, my thoughts are with you.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

As to phenobarbitol it is a medication that can be titrated as needed to give the minimum effective dose ad used that way for long term seizure control. My older niece was on it for about a year and a half when she was an infant (too long a story to be told here). She was tapered off it and never had any seizures other than the mild hand tremor she had as an infant. My other niece has a mild seizure disorder and has been on phenobarbitol off and on for ages always titrated to the lowest controlling dose with no adverse reactions. I believe Countryboy's boy Tonka also takes it and has had no ill effects. I would not reject it out of hand if Buck had another seizure and it looked like this might be not simply a one off or very rare event. If we all read all of the warnings on every bottle of medication we ever took we would never take anything. Most adverse reactions to medications are rare (some are significant in their consequences (like the asthma med that says it increases your risk of dying from asthma, HUH!!!!). Every decision to use a medication is a risk benefit analysis where one weighs the particulars of the need and potential benefits against the likelihood of various adverse reactions.

Needless to say I am waiting to hear that you have some definite answers and that your management will be easy or better yet, none required.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

All of Buck’s blood work came back completely normal. My vet advised keeping a seizure diary and if he has more than one a month, it would be time for further testing and the phenobarbital. WestU, very kindly checked with her Beagle breeder who suggested possible toxins in the yard. Beagles are prone to seizures and it’s interesting to know there is no test a breeder could do at this time on breeding pairs to avoid seizure issues.

We had recently put down a Scott’s product on the grass which is still visible, but that is labeled as safe for kids and pets. Another product that we use is called Orthene, used to kill fire ants and carries a warning. I called Scott’s and they were very helpful and sympathetic. A chemical in that product can cause all kinds of problems for pets, including seizures. Good to know, but I can’t be sure if he snorted, ingested or even rolled in the stuff.

Buck did take a hit to the head with a soccer ball. DH says my kicks are pretty weak. I was a soccer mom and never a player, no offense taken. It certainly didn’t flatten Buck. 

Anyway, I was very comforted by VQ’s post, Countryboy’s too, both of which I read to DH. We could not have made it to 3 without PF! Thanks everyone


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Thank you for the update!


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Thanks for the update. Fingers crossed it was a once off!


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Mfmst, all good thoughts this was a one-off, and it never happens again. Seems possible Buck is sensitive to one of the products for your grass, and hopefully he'll never have another seizure. Your wonderful, full-heart loving DH has so many of my comforting thoughts, with plenty left over for you! Virtual hugs coming your way from here.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Mfmst said:


> We had recently put down a Scott’s product on the grass which is still visible, but that is labeled as safe for kids and pets. Another product that we use is called Orthene, used to kill fire ants and carries a warning. I called Scott’s and they were very helpful and sympathetic. A chemical in that product can cause all kinds of problems for pets, including seizures. Good to know, but I can’t be sure if he snorted, ingested or even rolled in the stuff.


Thanks for the update on Buck! 

I am a total hippie mom when it comes to products for the yard, but it can be difficult when your yard guys aren't totally on board. As for fire ants, from my research the only non-toxic product that is moderately effective is boiling water poured on the nests.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

http://vethospital.tamu.edu/files/hospital/services/Siezures Levine Brochure.pdf

Of course, I am obsessively researching seizures and this was the best, so far. Texas A&M is within driving distance


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I think that the vast majority of the time seizures in standard poodles are due to idiopathic epilepsy. When I hear of a standard having a seizure...I go ahead and mentally mark it as that if all bloodwork turns out normal. 

Hopefully he won't have any more, and if he does, hopefully they are mild and infrequent. Keep us posted!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I could easily see myself driving to Ithaca to go to the Cornell vet hospital if I was in your position Mfmst. Idiopathic or not I would want as much up to date and state of the art derived evidence as I could get.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

And while you are busy researching, you may find this upcoming webinar interesting. It's partly about the microbiota connection in regard to the development and progression of epilepsy. Might want to put Buck on a good probiotic if he isn't already. VetVine - Pet Health Information - AKCCHF - Update on Canine Epilepsy


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Definitely sending prayers. 

Just a thought.... Several years ago my spoo had really bad seizures two months in a row. It took him until the next day afterwards before he was no longer stumbling around in a daze. In trying to figure it out I looked back at anything that might have happened in the past couple of weeks. It turned out to be Frontline, that flea and tick stuff that you put in a spot on the back of their neck, sort of between the shoulder blades. Has your dog had Frontline recently?

My spoo had not seemed to react for about a year when having it. He has never had a seizure since, nor has he had Frontline.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

kontiki said:


> Definitely sending prayers.
> 
> Just a thought.... Several years ago my spoo had really bad seizures two months in a row. It took him until the next day afterwards before he was no longer stumbling around in a daze. In trying to figure it out I looked back at anything that might have happened in the past couple of weeks. It turned out to be Frontline, that flea and tick stuff that you put in a spot on the back of their neck, sort of between the shoulder blades. Has your dog had Frontline recently?
> 
> My spoo had not seemed to react for about a year when having it. He has never had a seizure since, nor has he had Frontline.


Frontline isn't absorbed into the bloodstream, though, so unless he was able to lick his neck, it's not likely that Frontline caused seizures...In fact Frontline is the recommended product of choice for epileptic dogs who need flea and tick protection for that reason.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

CharismaticMillie thanks for that great link. The microbiome-gut-brain axis is an incredibly rich area of current research in both human and animal health. Imbalances in the microbiome are linked to immunological impairment, depression and a myriad of other human health issues ranging from childhood obesity to nut allergies, asthma, type II diabetes risk and the like. One practical thing to keep in mind is that any time we use antibiotics, antibacterial chemotherapy agents, disinfectants and antiseptics we reduce the diversity of actual and potential microbiome organisms in ourselves and in our companion and food source animals.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Hmmm.


CharismaticMillie said:


> Frontline isn't absorbed into the bloodstream, though, so unless he was able to lick his neck, it's not likely that Frontline caused seizures...In fact Frontline is the recommended product of choice for epileptic dogs who need flea and tick protection for that reason.


I am glad for you that your dog has not reacted to Frontline.
My research shows that Frontline Plus contains a neurotoxin. If you google Frontline and Frontline Plus and seizures you will see that this is happening to many dogs. Fipronil and (S)-methoprene are the active ingredients. https://www.vetinfo.com/side-effects-fipronil-frontline-dogs.html I am certainly not saying this is the cause, but something to consider. Some dogs have problems with Fipronil.

There is currently a class action lawsuit.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Well, yikes! He is on Frontline and has been since he was a puppy. I’m going to run that by my vet. Will certainly try something else.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

The only dangerous phase of a seizure is the 'post-ictal', AKA The Stupid Phase. 

They stagger blindly around the house at alarming speed... bouncing off of tables, walls, doors. You try to anticipate, run around like a goalkeeper, trying to block them... but they're lots faster than you are.

A rate of one seizure a month wouldn't really be alarming, fairly simply controlled. But you'll learn to 'stagger-proof' your house.


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## West U (Jul 30, 2014)

All the flea meds seem to cause problems. Trifectis almost killed Lola when she was young. I have stopped giving oral or topical monthly flea meds. I do use capstar which kills fleas but not eggs and do regular maintenance baths. I only use the Capstar if I actually see fleas. I wonder when things are labeled safe for pets and children, if the manufacturer would actually put some in their mouth and swallow it?


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Verve said:


> Thanks for the update on Buck!
> 
> I am a total hippie mom when it comes to products for the yard, but it can be difficult when your yard guys aren't totally on board. As for fire ants, from my research the only non-toxic product that is moderately effective is boiling water poured on the nests.


I learned to be a "hippie" Mom in the '60's from my Mom. She ordered lady bugs to eat aphids on our roses and honeysuckle bushes, would not allow fertilizer in the fenced back yard aka beagle habitat, and poured cornmeal on ant hills to kill ants...they can not digest it and die, and all dandelions were dug by hand no poisons allowed, plant basil plants and mint by the doors to the house to keep mosquitoes away, ground cloves sprinkled in kitchen cupboards to ward off "sugar ants". I follow the same practices. 

I am fortunate to live where fleas seldom are a problem, but would use food grade diatomaceous earth in the yard and dusted on the dogs if needed. I have used it for rolly polly bug infestations as well as for earwig EWWWWW, infestations.

I do hope that you find something natural for treating fleas and that Buck NEVER has another seizure......scary stuff.

Many hugs to you all! Cathy and Poppy


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Countryboy said:


> A rate of one seizure a month wouldn't really be alarming....


Yikes, that would be alarming to me! 
Do you know what is causing your dogs seizures?


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I am really interested in all of the 'hippie mom' suggestions. It would be great if you would write a new thread in the health section... maybe something like :
Hippy Mom Alternative Treatments

Most people wouldn't be looking for that kind of info under a non-relevant heading like Buck had a seizure. Although the info is certainly relevant here too.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

My vet shot down the Frontline avenue, saying he didn’t see how that was possible. I am guessing that the blood work done would indicate an organ abnormality response to a toxin, but I did not think of that follow up question until later.

Buck has not been himself since the event: early AM bile vomiting, lethargy. My vet advised withholding food the first day when I told him about the nausea. I decided to make small portions of boiled chicken, broth and rice available to jumpstart his appetite and tamp down those stomach juices. Yesterday, my wheeled stretcher arrived. I hope I never need it. One seizure is one too many.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

kontiki said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> I am glad for you that your dog has not reacted to Frontline.
> My research shows that Frontline Plus contains a neurotoxin. If you google Frontline and Frontline Plus and seizures you will see that this is happening to many dogs. Fipronil and (S)-methoprene are the active ingredients. https://www.vetinfo.com/side-effects-fipronil-frontline-dogs.html I am certainly not saying this is the cause, but something to consider. Some dogs have problems with Fipronil.
> ...


Frontline is NOT absorbed into the bloodstream when applied correctly and it will not cause seizures from topical application. Feed it to a dog and that's a different story. You can read a lot of things on the internet and they aren't all true. Frontline is unquestionably the safest flea and tick product available. It is not as effective as some others, but it's safe, when used properly. I doubt a class action lawsuit is going to get anywhere.

I use Nexgard for my dogs most of the time these days, as I am sort of done dealing with timing topical applications in relation to baths. Nexgard is obviously absorbed into the bloodstream seeing as it is an oral drug, and it does lower the seizure threshold. Frontline, however, does not. It does not make it into the bloodstream. Unless you apply it onto an open wound. Without making it into the bloodstream, it cannot cause seizures. That's why Buck's vet shot it down.

If had an epileptic dog, which I do not, Frontline is what I would use as it's the safest product for dogs that are prone to seizures.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Mfmst said:


> Buck has not been himself since the event: early AM bile vomiting, lethargy. ...


Aaagh. I am so sorry to hear that Buck is not 100%. Is it typical for there to be other symptoms following a seizure? Maybe time for a trip to Texas A&M? Or give it more time to see if he is better in a few days? I really don't know what I would do. What does your vet say? Praying for you, for your lovely husband, and for Buck. 

Thanks for the update.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

kontiki said:


> Do you know what is causing your dogs seizures?


Nope, and I never will. That's why they label most Epilepsy 'Ideopathic.' Nobody has any idea of the cause. They may discover a cause in my lifetime, but 'til then there's nothing I can do... nothing! 

But I gotta tell you, people... it alarms me to see people changing their whole life on account of one seizure. There are other members here who have learned to cope with epilepsy... for years. Even with the Phenobarb, you'll see a 'breakthrough' every once in a while. Panicking doesn't do the dog any good, and 'specially it doesn't do YOU any good.

For the first time in about a year, Tonka came charging drunk into my bedroom the other nite... obviously post-ictal. Bouncing off my bed, my night table and everything else in the room... then he charged back out again and I went back to sleep... not a blessed other thing I could do about it. And NO harm coming to him in the meantime. 

Be alarmed at your first seizure, but then put on your adult clothes and deal with it rationally... calmly. Your psyche needs that for your own sake.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Countryboy I agree with you that living a panic filled life over things like this that can be managed but perhaps not eliminated is counterproductive for all involved. For us the chronic stress is clearly no good and if that is our state of being how in the world is it not transferring over to the dog? Doesn't that sound like a state that might be provocative of more problem episodes than less. As I said earlier we have dealt with seizures in our family and we all accept it as one of the things that has become part of our version of normal. The biggest issue is that the 17 year old is chomping at the bit to be allowed to learn to drive, but there need to be some medical records submitted for her to get a learner's permit. Otherwise this very smart successful young woman is an equestrian, scholar and generous community service minded veterinarian in the making.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Mfmst said:


> My vet shot down the Frontline avenue, saying he didn’t see how that was possible.


Yup, I could of guessed that. Most vets do. But when mine did for the second time my spoo had a seizure I did my own research.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Hopefully Buck is doing better today. I was thinking about him when I fed Lucky some chicken back today. I remembered Buck loved chicken neck. Sending lots of positive energy your way.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

And we thought of him when Tiki had both pork and a chicken leg with Nordic Naturals Omega 3 pet oil with banana and raspberries today): Be well Buck!


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