# Still frustrated and losing hope



## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Boy, Teddy sounds like a very complicated dog. I don't know his background, but it sounds like he was not socialized before you got him. 

I honestly don't blame you for considering re-homing him--the problem is, with all of his baggage, who is going to want to take him on? A dog with all of these issues is highly likely to end up in a shelter 

I really think you should get a professional to work on his resource guarding/snapping/unhappiness, definitely before you consider another dog. And I wouldn't feel bad about confining him. He isn't able to handle free roaming yet. Maizie is much younger, but she too would get into every bit of garbage and toilet paper she could find if I let her--she would trash the place if I didn't confine her when I wasn't around. 

I would give it one more try with pro, in home training. You may unknowingly be projecting negative energy into Teddy when you walk him or have training sessions. I'm sensing a lot of anxiety from your post and I'm sure Teddy can feel that. But get an expert's opinion. Or post a video of a training session and maybe we can help here. If you love Teddy and truly want to make it work, don't give up!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I can't remember from your previous posts if you have had him checked out physically. If not, you will want to eliminate a physical cause for all his growling.

I second the in-home trainer. If anything, it will help you give up a lot of guilt over confining him, which sounds like the only temporary solution. I am still using a bunch of baby gates and crates to confine my 7 month old when I can't watch him. I am giving him more freedom now on a trial basis but I always keep him in eye sight.

This morning my puppy kept fighting with my older dog. So I put on a harness (you could use a neck collar) and tethered him to me. That allowed me to wash the dishes, do the laundry, etc without him getting into trouble. It also teaches the dog they have to get used to waiting for you on occasion.

I am working on teaching Dakota to have his teeth brushed as well. I put the toothpaste (CET poultry flavored) on a small brush and let him lick it off. Then I do it again and reach for his lip and put the toothpaste on a tooth in the front of the side. While he is licking that off, I do a few brushes on the back teeth, keeping the whole thing short. Then repeat for second side. If he is resistant, I just put some toothpaste on my finger and let him lick it off and settle for that. My dogs LOVE LOVE their toothpaste. When I brush my teeth, they are lying around me in the bathroom waiting for their turn. So get him hooked on the taste of the toothpaste and then approach slowly (not holding him at all) and just deal with his mouth. Get him used to your putting your fingers in his mouth by putting tasty things like toothpaste or peanut. Pretend to brush his teeth with your finger. Do it off and on all day until it is no big deal. Those are ideas I have with my dogs.

The growling and snapping are worrisome. I think you really need a professional to advise you on this. One that can see your dog in person and help you assess. If you decide to keep Happy, you really need to have a handle on his aggression before you bring a second dog into the mix.

So confine Happy or tether him, work on handling his mouth and other parts more, and consult a professional. I am sorry that your dog is giving you so many problems and not so much joy. I can certainly relate.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you need a qualified, experienced behaviourist, rather than simply a trainer. Someone who can observe the family dynamics, and help you to understand what is going on, whether there are things that can be done to resolve his issues, and, if appropriate, advise you on the best kind of home for him. Sometimes rehoming is the best thing - I don't mean dumping him in the nearest shelter, but working with a qualified rescue to find the best fit for him - but I would want really good professional advice first.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with MiniPoo that you need to have a good physical exam to rule out any sub clinical illness that could be making your pup cranky. I'm not sure if you saw some of Manxcat's recent posts about Pippin and her bad hip, but she had a cranky dog who it turned out was uncomfortable, not just simply cranky.

I really, really agree with fjm that if there are no physical causal explanations for these behavioral issues that you need a behaviorist, not simply a trainer. I would feel comfortable working on some of the issues you are having, but not all of them. I am a trainer, not a behaviorist. If you had me for a consult I would give you a referral to a behaviorist.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

You have gotten some great advice. I especially agree with what fjm said. A good behaviorist should be able to help you assess the situation.

I am a big believer in rehoming and think it can be a fabulous solution in a lot of situations. My boy Bob's previous owners didn't like him. He's bossy. He's not a very good looking poodle. But take a look at Bob's birthday thread if you want to know how I feel about him. I am so glad that they decided to rehome him! I've also participated in other rehomings that had fabulous results. In one case a hyperactive spoo was moved from a home that didn't have time for his very high exercise needs to a 2-dog home with a man who took his dogs for two long walks each day. And the walks included off-leash ball throwing and/or groundhog chasing. Just what that poodle needed.

There are several questions that I think a behaviorist could help with. My main concern from what you have said is the growling and snapping. That is really unacceptable behavior, and no one is going to want a dog that growls and snaps. Hopefully a behaviorist could help with that. Many of the other things you mention seem to be things that you don't like, but might be fine with someone else. Lots of people don't like to walk their dogs and would be delighted with a toy poodle who wants to stay home all day, snuggle and occasionally play a short bit in the backyard. 

Generally a young poodle is very adoptable, and if the growling and snapping can be worked out, I think you'd be able to find a nice home for him. Your breeder might be able to help (some breeders are better at this than others). Poodle rescue people can also be a huge help. In my experience, you can either send an adoptable dog to poodle rescue to live in a foster family before being placed, or they can help you manage the process yourself. I think they prefer the former because they have control and can do a better job of evaluating the dog. A few years ago, I had a foster dog once that I wanted to place, and poodle rescue helped me do it myself. Anyway, you have lots of options. As fjm said, I think a qualified behaviorist is the place to start.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Here are some more direct responses to your concerns.


The Challenging:
He sometimes plays outside, but sometimes just sits. He will play fetch a little.

He hates his walks, and sometimes refuses to walk. He cowers and acts afraid of his harness (yes I've tried SEVERAL) (this is hard for me, as this is something I enjoy)

*I know lots of people like harnesses for small dogs, but if Happy is afraid of it, try a martingale collar instead.*

He growls at dogs when we are walking

*Keep your distance from passing dogs. Stay far enough that he is under threshold. Have Happy sit and pay attention to you to let the other dog pass. Once he gives you attention then you can do the “Look at That” game.*

He pees whenever he's excited and greeting you

*Have Happy sit and remain sitting when people greet. Enlist a good helper who will know to walk away if they see him start to wiggle around. Slowly work up to an actual greeting with a happy pet of a sitting dog.*

he whines if I leave the room at night or in the morning when he is in his crate

Reward and acknowledge any quiet behavior even if short in duration, but make sure you praise while still quiet. You should gradually get longer periods of quiet.

he wiggles terribly when I brush his teeth and I'm afraid he is going to break his neck. 

He snaps at me when I am grooming his feet

*Do you have a grooming table? I think that for my poodles, being on a real grooming table sends a signal about being cooperative to be able to get down sooner. Also I don’t brush teeth, but give alternating buffalo ears or a piece of salmon skin about 5 days a week. We always have good dental reports at check ups.*

He is a very extremely picky eater and I've tried TONS of food

*Stop changing foods. Stick with one decent food you think he is likely to eat. Give him five minutes to eat it and then take it away. As long as there are no health problems a dog will not allow itself to starve. Keep doing this with the food until he figures it out. My mom’s mpoo learned to be a good eater when he stayed with us for about 10 days this winter. I gave him slack the first night or two, but after that I gave him 10 minutes or less to finish his food after which I let Lily and Peeves eat it in front of him. He still eats his dinner in under ten minutes*.

he cowers and acts afraid to get out of his car seat (but is excited to get in it!)

he cowers and acts afraid whenever we go anywhere (and we did socialize him as a pup! recently I've given up and just leave him at home)

He tries to run out of open doors (but that's improving)

I can't have a rug or towel by the patio door, he eats it and destroys it. This is annoying cuz I like clean floors!

I can't leave bedroom doors open, he gets into everything

I can't leave (or drop) anything on the floor, he steals it and he resource guards it and we can't get it back unless he feels like trading for a treat. He will growl and snap at us. and I mean we can't leave anything, not a basket of laundry, not a grocery bag, NOTHING.

I can't leave the bathroom door open, he eats and rips up toilet paper

He isn't interested in playing with other dogs, even small ones

He isn't interested in going swimming or having much to do with water besides getting his feet wet

He growls and snaps at anyone who comes near him when I am holding him. I try not to hold him often due to this.

He growls and snaps at anyone who is done holding him and decides to put him down, when he doesn't want to be put down.

*Most of these later concerns are things I think a behaviorist who can observe Happy will be better able to work with you to resolve.*


I wish you all the best with resolving these concerns. I do hope you will try the behaviorist after having his health checked. As others said here, his issues do reduce the odds of a successful rehome. I know you have his best interests at heart and that you want to have a great and fulfilling relationship with Happy. I think you can get there with the right help. Try not to wear your worries and frustration on your sleeve. Shed the mixed feeling when you work with him. If you are internally at peace then that is what you will project and what Happy will read. Lily taught me how to be internally calm at difficult moments. It did a world of good for both of us. Look up some of my older threads and you will see what I mean.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I am sorry, but I never allowed a dog to growl or snap at me. I know some are not going to like this, but if you growl or snap at the hand that feeds you, that hand will be on your snout. I pay the bills, I love you to death, and I as your mom deserve some respect. Unless the dog is mentally retarded, they can be trained. 

Tome dogs needs limits, and are no different than children, they need to be corrected so you and others enjoy them. Cayenne was house broke, then she started peeing of the potty pad on carpet, all day long for a week she was confined to the kitchen. This past week no problems, and I scolded her when I found what she had done, even hours latter. All I said is, "what is this". Tail between he legs and under the desk she would run, she knew it was wrong.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

glorybeecosta said:


> I am sorry, but I never allowed a dog to growl or snap at me. I know some are not going to like this, but if you growl or snap at the hand that feeds you, that hand will be on your snout. I pay the bills, I love you to death, and I as your mom deserve some respect. Unless the dog is mentally retarded, they can be trained.
> 
> Tome dogs needs limits, and are no different than children, they need to be corrected so you and others enjoy them. Cayenne was house broke, then she started peeing of the potty pad on carpet, all day long for a week she was confined to the kitchen. This past week no problems, *and I scolded her when I found what she had done,** even hours latter*. All I said is, "what is this". *Tail between he legs and under the desk she would run, she knew it was wrong.*


Your dog didn't know it was "wrong." Dogs don't have our moral or value systems. They are amoral. Your dog was _scared_ of you, hence the body language you describe. This kind of old school, ignorance is what causes problems. What you're doing to your dog, she does not understand. And this clearly shows no understanding of learning behavior. Of course dogs need boundaries but there are better ways to teach them. Dogs don't know what _respect _means in our sense of the understanding of the word. You seem to forget that they are animals, not human children who understand our language, our values and our morals, our culture. That reminds me, you should really read Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. It would be a real help to you and show you that there ARE other ways that are so much better for dogs.

I certainly hope the OP doesn't take your advice because if she does, she's going to cause that timid little dog to be ruined. And people wonder why dogs get aggressive, shut down and otherwise neurotic. Hitting a dog on the snout? Are you kidding? Punishing well after she peed on the carpet? What you're doing is abusive. She does not understand what she did was wrong. She had to go pee and you're scaring her. 

Dogs are animals, not humans and will not understand attacking them the way you describe. If you want to treat your dog that way and not learn better and more benevolent ways to teach, then I pity your dogs. But you really shouldn't be giving training advice because that's not training. That's just bullying and confusing your poor dog. :sad:

I'd much rather see the advice of other posters used which shows an understanding of animal behavior.


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## SeoulTeddy (Jan 8, 2015)

Oh dear. I'm no expert but all I can say is that Teddy appears to have some of the same issues as Happy (aversion to grooming, fear of harness resource guarding, especially of stolen items). I know that if I slapped Teddy on the nose while he was guarding something and growling/snapping, it would definitely cause the situation to escalate into aggression. I don't know whether this says more about me than him. 

Shel, I don't know what to tell you, but I do think you've had some amazing advice. I only wish I could get a behaviorist here! I feel your troubles with regard to resource guarding. My husband and I have morphed into super ninjas since we got Teddy. He is a crazy resource guarder about stolen items so if we ever drop something we move at lightning speed to pick it up before he can get to it. What I will say is that he seems to be improving after many months of trading. We are moving house this weekend and yesterday in the midst of things he managed to get a sock. I had no treats to hand so I instructed him to give it to me. He dropped it and without thinking I reached down to take it. No growling, no snapping, no fuss. Needless to say he got some peanut butter and huge praise after it clicked with me what had just happened. What I'm saying is that this might change in time if you keep working at it. 

He too has no interest in playing with other dogs. I just accept that. He's not sociable unless it involves cats or humans. That's just how he is. 

Anyway, I wish you guys both the best of luck and whether the outcome is attempting to resolve these issues or rehoming, I know you'll do what is best for you both. 

Best wishes! 

SeoulTeddy


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

All that cowering and resource guarding and negativity with the outside world and other dogs makes me think he might be fearful. He feels comfortable in people's laps and isn't happy when he can't stay there. Growling at others who approach you when you're holding him is resource guarding too. I think he might not be interested in playing due to being on guard. Liking new people is a good sign though.

If you did a good job on socializing him then my guess is he's a personality that needs tons more.

And I agree with the others, medical reasons must be ruled out. Being in pain would make anyone grumpy and reluctant.


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

Stop playing tug!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

The root of all this dogs issues is fear!! Fearfuldogs.com and there is also a Facebook page for it.

I have a fearful poodle. I was taking him to training classes and socializing "the heck" out of him as my (well respected) trainers were telling me to do. He got worse and worse. 

When I talked to my breeder, she very wisely said to stop all the training and socializing. Leave him at home for many months (I left him home 6 months, only leaving the house was to pee outside). And then I slowly started back up. Seeing the leash meant he'd get a yummy treat, no more. Then I'd move up to touching the leash to him, then hooking the leash to his collar and unhooking, then hooking and taking a couple steps. We've worked up to him completely being able to go on nice long walks.

But that was in baby steps too. I chose a quiet section of the neighborhood, I actively avoided other humans, dogs, and noise. We went a short way, then a little longer, and so on. 

It has taken a couple of years for him to come around. Also, the "picky" eating thing turned out to him thinking that *I* owned the bowl of food. I would make a worried, (sometimes angry!) face, stare at him, point at the bowl and fuss at him to eat. All would make him tuck his tail and walk away. 

Happily make his meal (stop switching kibbles!), set the bowl down with a smile and walk away from him. Don't even look at him, busy yourself with something else. 15 minutes later, tell him he's a good boy whether he ate or not, pick up the bowl and go on with your day. 

Another thing, please change your expectations. Dogs are individuals, just as humans are. I am a quiet, introverted human who has trouble in social situations. I'll never be the life of the party, it would be exhausting to even pretend! I had to adjust my expectations for Jack, too. It all turned out ok. 

he was also very scared of people and other dogs. He's coming around, and people are less scary. I make sure people know they should behave as if he isn't even there. completely ignore him- that suits his comfort level. 

I agree with a behaviorist as well, but also look at BAT training (behavior adjustment training). Allows the dog to make his own choice at comfort levels (how close they are able to get to a scary thing). 

Good luck.


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

HI

I agree with most that has been said, although, I don't agree anytime, anywhere to hit a dog.
It sounds like you have a fearful, insecure dog.
Have you watched any Cesar Millan t.v. shows....He talks about fearful, insecure dogs in some of his episodes and how to handle them...It might help some..


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Desiree said:


> Stop playing tug!


Why? What's wrong with tug? It's a known confidence building game. It needs rules. The dog needs to learn to "give" when asked. And not to grab or hit you with his teeth. If that happens, game over. But it's a great game to help a dog become more secure when he's afraid or timid. A lot of timid dogs won't even play tug.


When looking for training advice, I'd personally stay clear of Cesar Milan. He uses a lot of force and flooding techniques. He does not read body language correctly. Behaviorists do not subscribe to Cesar Milan. Stick with what learning behavior and science shows us about dogs would be my advice. One of my personal favorites online is Kikopup. She really knows behavior and has great videos.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled. If Cayenne pees on the carpet, say 3 hours before, and I walk out and look at it, not say a word, she takes off, so I do believe they know what is wrong. I can have both dogs standing beside of me and find a pee spot (Belle never goes in the house) and she does not slink away.

I say to Cayenne use potty patch and get a cookie, she does. It maybe habit or dies she know how to get a cookie (she gets cookies other time, not just potty patch)

I have a friend, Pat who stops by every couple of weeks, she has a dog Solaye ( I can say Solaye is coming later, Cayenne will sit at the front door for at least 20 minutes and wait, while I go back to work in the office. She remembers that dog

I had a friend, who would tell guest, let me give you some treats so Mishie don't bit you. So before you came in the door you had to give it a treat. That dog knew if it got nasty, it would get a treat, I think that is remembering.

I can assure you, my dogs are treated better than most children, they listen and want to please me and I in return take very good care of them.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think the wide range of sometimes contradictory advice the OP is receiving underlines why it is time to seek help from a professional - a fully qualified and experienced behaviourist, not "Joe down the road who knows lots about dogs". Some dogs are born and raised to be easy - they are the perfect companion for the new dog owner, kindly forgiving all the mistakes we make along the way. Some dogs, even when puppies, can be a challenge for the most experienced owners. Most pups fall somewhere in between - getting it wrong when they are babies means problems down the road, but not necessarily insuperable ones. This particular dog sounds to me like a rather nervous puppy who has found ways to control the world around him in ways that could escalate into serious biting and eventually lead to euthanasia - but that is reading the situation from a long way away and a few internet posts. Both dog and owner need help from someone who can visit and diagnose properly - we would not hesitate to seek properly qualified help for a broken leg, but are somehow much more reluctant to pay for equally life saving help for emotional issues. I can understand that - it feels less immediately dangerous and more like the things we have coped with successfully before - but I really believe that when a dog is growling and snapping to get its message across the time has come to seek help, before somebody gets badly hurt. A dog that is a known biter is very difficult to rehome - much better to act before things reach that stage.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Great post, fjm. 

I want to apologize for calling Happy "Teddy" in my post :embarrassed:


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## shelhey (Jul 16, 2014)

Thanks everyone again for the advice and support. 

If he is fearful what did I do wrong? Was he born that way?..


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

shelhey said:


> Thanks everyone again for the advice and support.
> 
> If he is fearful what did I do wrong? Was he born that way?..


A few things can make a dog fearful: The use of strong aversives can cause a dog to become fearful, which can manifest into various behaviors, including aggression. Sometimes even one or two bad experiences that caused fearfulness in a dog can have long lasting effects.

The other main thing that can cause fearfulness is an unstable temperament. Temperament is something a dog (all of us) are born with. It does not change. Behavior can change but temperament is what you're born with.

Another biggy is an inadequate socialization, especially during the early critical socialization period, which is from birth through about 14 weeks of age. If this isn't handled well, that can cause dogs to be fearful. Fear periods that come later can influence how a dog will become. Sometimes one very scary incident at the wrong time can make for fearfulness. But a dog with a very strong and stable temperament may be better able to bounce back from that.

I think a lot of fear can be over come, a lot of behaviors modified to one degree or another. It won't always be miraculous or a huge change, but dogs can get better. I've seen it with my own two eyes many times. My son's dog is one prime example....an abused dog early on and now you'd never know it. She happens to have an in born, good, strong temperament and seemed able to over come her earlier challenges, which were very significant and marked. 

So, I second Fjm's post about getting a certified behaviorist in to help you out. I bet you could see some improvement...maybe not a 180 degree turn around, but some definite help in coping. Keep us posted.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

glorybeecosta said:


> Poodlebeguiled. If Cayenne pees on the carpet, say 3 hours before, and I walk out and look at it, not say a word, she takes off, so I do believe they know what is wrong. I can have both dogs standing beside of me and find a pee spot (Belle never goes in the house) and she does not slink away.
> 
> I say to Cayenne use potty patch and get a cookie, she does. It maybe habit or dies she know how to get a cookie (she gets cookies other time, not just potty patch)
> 
> ...


I have no doubt dogs have a memory. I didn't mean they can't remember things. But they're animals and don't understand right and wrong in a moral sense like we do. They also tend to associate or pair things together when they learn. So, after the fact, attacking (it feels like that to your dog) doesn't make any sense. It is not likely paired with the act of peeing that was done 3 hours before. It is normally tied to whatever is going on at the time or whatever is present in the dog's environment. YOU. Painful, scary things and you near by = You are scary. The dog doesn't know that it has anything to do with pee on the Oriental rug that cost $2,000. 

It is wrong to strike a dog...period. There is no good reason to hit a dog. It risks causing a whole host of possible side effects. It causes distrust. My main object in having dogs...or my main goal...before anything else is that they trust me completely. There is no doubt in their minds EVER that something bad will happen at my hands. They never run and hide from me. I can not see working with a dog, getting the best back from him without explicit trust. I don't have to hit or yank to get good behavior out of my dogs. There are too many better ways to teach dogs things available for all to learn.


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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

One of my dogs growing up was a garbage shredder. She would get into the garbage and make a mess. My father we would come home and my father would get angry with her for the mess and so she would slink away, head down tail tucked when we would come home. She associated the mess with punishment, but not the act of her making the mess. I could walk into the kitchen and knock the garbage over myself and as soon as Molly saw the mess she would have the same reaction, head down, tail low, slinking away. Dogs don't associate punishment with the behaviour they're being punished for unless it happens within seconds of the behaviour. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

This was really brought home to me when I found a whole bottle of shampoo had tipped, and quietly dripped into a large sticky pool on the bathroom floor. The dogs looked in on owner on hands and knees, grumbling while scrubbing the floor, and quietly and completely removed themselves to my bed... I had tried hard to blame myself and not them for the odd occasion they made a mess on the floor, but even my disapproving sighs were obviously enough to make them feel it was better not to be around when I was floor scrubbing. Nothing to do with who or what caused the mess, everything to do with avoiding a disgruntled human!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

shelhey said:


> Thanks everyone again for the advice and support.
> 
> If he is fearful what did I do wrong? Was he born that way?..


It may be that he was born that way; or that he was born with a predisposition that way that was confirmed by early experiences; or that, with the best of intentions, something that you and your family have done, or not done, has made him that way. His problems may not even stem from fear (although everything that you have said does indicate that). I think the important thing now is not to try and second guess the causes in the past, but to get help working with the dog in front of you now. You cannot change his past - you can change his future.


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

FJM - always the voice of reason. We thank you!


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

One thing that can be tough for people to do is locate an actual behaviorist. I saw these links posted recently (elsewhere) and it was a good reminder to me that this is a frequent question.

In hopes of assisting with links to find the type of person you need, here goes:
Animal Behavior Society
https://iaabc.org/consultants
https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/finding-professional-help

In your case, a veterinary behaviorist may be the best bet. For The Public « ACVB


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## shelhey (Jul 16, 2014)

Thanks everyone! This is very helpful. I get "low" sometimes and I needed some encouragement. I'm about to start reading that book, written by the lady from the fearfuldogs website. I also read culture clash. And I should mention that doing recallers is working and it's very encouraging to see progress being made in some areas. I'm going to look into the behaviorist. I am committed to this. I can't give up on him. I mean is it even him? Maybe it's us that need to change?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

shelhey said:


> Thanks everyone! This is very helpful. I get "low" sometimes and I needed some encouragement. I'm about to start reading that book, written by the lady from the fearfuldogs website. I also read culture clash. And I should mention that doing recallers is working and it's very encouraging to see progress being made in some areas. I'm going to look into the behaviorist. I am committed to this. I can't give up on him. I mean is it even him? Maybe it's us that need to change?


I love your attitude! With that, you'll learn because your mind and eyes are opened. Keep plugging away. A good applied veterinary behaviorist would be the way to go. Even a dog with a poor temperament can be helped. Things can be compensated for, at least somewhat. And you can learn from a professional that is reputable and good. Keep us posted. I think it's wonderful that you're committed and devoted to this little, innocent animal that isn't as happy as he might be and hopefully, will be. Best to you.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I hesitate to say this but, It sounds like your puppy was poorly socialized before you got him. Secondly it sounds like you had very little previous experience in training. It is easy for those who have had dogs all their lives to critique but many of us correct or reinforce behavior without thinking. Your puppy needed experienced care when he first arrived. His "bad" behavior is now ingrained and will need extensive corrective training. Much of the behavior you describe is that expected of a raw puppy. If not corrected while young this behavior can become routine and dogs are very big on routine. It is my opinion that this dog will require a lot of time spent correcting his problems to your standard. Since you have thought of re-homing it is likely you have not bonded strongly with this dog. Please consider finding a new home for him with an experienced dog handler. Then you might consider a mature dog say 3 y/o who has been trained and socialized. Not easy to find, but some breeders let go dogs who are not perfectly conformed for breeding but might well have been well trained and socialized. Also for walking out a mini or a standard might be a better choice.
Eric


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## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

He sometimes plays outside, but sometimes just sits. He will play fetch a little.

**Ok, what is wrong with just sitting when outside? My dogs do it. No big deal.

He hates his walks, and sometimes refuses to walk. He cowers and acts afraid of his harness (yes I've tried SEVERAL) (this is hard for me, as this is something I enjoy)

**Stop taking him for walks? How fast do you walk? How long do you expect him to walk? He is a mini, not a Standard or some other large dog.

He growls at dogs when we are walking

**Talk to him as you pass other dogs, happy voice, get his attention, give him a treat. And how close are you to the other dogs when he growls? Please don't tell me you are trying to get him up close so he can say "hello". That is asking for a dog fight.

He pees whenever he's excited and greeting you

**Don't make a big fuss when you come in. More or less ignore him until he settles down. No excited high pitched baby talk.

he whines if I leave the room at night or in the morning when he is in his crate

**Ignore it. Put water in a squirt bottle or squirt gun and along with "Quiet" command squirt him. 

he wiggles terribly when I brush his teeth and I'm afraid he is going to break his neck. 

**Stop brushing his teeth.

He snaps at me when I am grooming his feet

**Put a muzzle on him and get a grooming table with grooming arm. Has he ever been groomed by someone else? If he is good for them, then it is you. 

He is a very extremely picky eater and I've tried TONS of food

**Stop switching foods. If he eats it for a day or two, then stick with it. Feed him in his crate and give him about 15-20 minutes to eat. Then he comes out and food goes up till next meal. He will learn two things, when to eat and that crates are good places, there is food and treats there.


Lot of the other stuff sounds like a small dog that got held, carried around and fussed over a lot when very small and now has decided he is one calling the shots. Puppies and dogs do get into trash, tear up rugs, etc. Some get over it, some don't and you learn to adjust and how to live with it.

Honestly, and this will get me flamed, but I think as a first time dog owner you expected the perfect ideal dog.... They are not all the same. My cockers never played with other dogs or each other once they passed puppy stage. Drove visiting dogs crazy.  You wanted a dog that is always active, ready to walk everywhere with you, go everywhere with you, play fetch whenever you desired, a dog that loves all other dogs, a dog that doesn't get into trash, shred papers or rugs, etc. The perfect dog, which does not exist. I would talk to the breeder and send him back. All I hear in your posts is how unhappy you are with this dog, how he isn't living up to your expectations. Send him back.


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## knitwit (Jan 21, 2012)

Shelhey, I am currently enrolled in Recallers as well. I am not sure if you joined the coaches call Susan had last month, but the biggest takeaway for me from what she said is this: Train the dog you have, not the dog you wish you had. Accepting the dog you have for what he is will make your journey together that much easier. Help him grow, gain confidence, and let him make the choices he's comfortable making all at his own pace. You've said you're already seeing improvement. Take the improvement and build on it one small step at a time. I do many of the games off lead. It's just how I prefer to train. I will modify a game slightly if it works better for us a different way. The main thing is to have fun with your dog and enjoy these moments together.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Your dog sounds like my last dog, my mini. When I got him he had never once set foot outside of the breeders home at almost 4 months. When I brought him home he shook violently in my arms. 

He was petrified. If I brought him to a store he would crawl under the the shelves and hide from people. At a very young age (3 months), if anyone tried to approach him he would growl. 

He did love other dogs though and walks, but was very fearful of people. 

Redirecting his behavior was a lifelong commitment. He was a very difficult dog. I was able to get him to offer more desirable behaviors, but I never expected him to be one of those dogs that runs up to people wagging their tails and sitting to be petted. I just strived to get him to *Ignore* people and not growl and bark at them. 

Same concept with your dog...I don't know how much of his temperament can really be trained out. If you're frustrated your dog senses it...I would consider rehoming if you feel like you are too frustrated. 

To be honest, my mini probably would have done well in a home with an elderly woman who didn't get out much. He would have been the perfect dog. His behavior was excellent indoors and I thought about rehoming him several times for *his* happiness. 

Having a friendly dog for my next dog was of the utmost importance to me and Naira embodies that. To this day, I still get surprised that I have a dog that loves people and is friendly to all. For years I was counter conditioning and using positive reinforcement to get mini not to flip out when he saw people.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Okay, I'm going to put my .02 in after your quotes. I'm going to pretend he's my dog and say what I might try...or just what's going around in my head. 

As far as temperament...it can't be trained out. It's what we're all born with. It's genetic....our personality. *BUT* things can be done to _compensate _for the shortcomings, sometimes to a small degree and sometimes quite significantly.

The Challenging:
He sometimes plays outside, but sometimes just sits. He will play fetch a little.

That's okay. Let him be himself. Go ahead and play fetch or tug...what he likes to do. Try a little bit to get him interested in something. Go over behind a bush and pretend like you're checking something really cool out. But if he doesn't come along, it's okay. I say, "try" because it's good for his mind and good for him to expand his horizons a little but not if he really truly doesn't want to. If he likes sitting and watching the world go by, that's him. And you can let him be himself.



He hates his walks, and sometimes refuses to walk. He cowers and acts afraid of his harness (yes I've tried SEVERAL) (this is hard for me, as this is something I enjoy)

Do you have a fenced yard? If so, forget the walks, at least for now and just walk around the back yard with him. Skip the harness for now. Later you can try gradually getting him use to it. Try a collar or just let him be naked and play around in the back yard. I know you want a dog you can take places and walk places with. Maybe re-homing isn't a bad idea to someone who doesn't mind having a dog stay at home all the time. 

He growls at dogs when we are walking

If you can keep him at a distance where he's comfortable and not to the point of reacting, feed him good things while he sees the dogs but hasn't reacted yet, he may get so he's okay with seeing other dogs. But keep your distance and only gradually close the distance AS he becomes more use to them. But if he's terrified of walking, I'd just skip it. 


He pees whenever he's excited and greeting you

Keep comings and goings low key. Don't look at him, don't say anything at all until he's calmed down...put the groceries away and sit down and then talk to him calmly and quietly. 

he whines if I leave the room at night or in the morning when he is in his crate

Just ignore. No response from you or you're inadvertently going to perpetuate that whining. 

he wiggles terribly when I brush his teeth and I'm afraid he is going to break his neck. 

Condition him more gradually to the tooth brush. Let him lick it. Even put something better on it than doggie toothpaste...peanut butter or cheese spread. Get him to look at the tooth brush like a really nice thing. Never mind getting his teeth clean just yet. Get him okay with the tooth brush. OR...use those finger pad things and just make a game out of it. Just do one tooth one time. And then lots of praise and reward. Then do two teeth etc. Gradual conditioning is helpful. 

He snaps at me when I am grooming his feet

Again, gradual conditioning. Don't groom yet. Does he like to watch movies with you? Lol. When you're sitting on the couch and stroking him lovingly, work your way down to his legs...not his feet just yet. The next time, go ahead and see if he's okay with running your hands from his back, down his whole leg and onto his feet. Then stop and give him a special treat. Don't over do it....just a few times. Each day do this a few times, a few reps. Do this till he's comfortable with you handling his feet. (if he's not comfortable with your hands on his feet) Then take the clippers and turn them on but just lay them on your lap. Feed bits of steak or chicken...tiny. Do this for a few days, few reps. Then when he's okay with that, (not until) lay them on him somewhere else where he IS okay with that vibration. Lots of praise, treats etc. Let them lay across the top of his foot when he is okay with the previous. Do that for days, a few times each day and a few reps. Stop before he gets nervous, while he's still okay with it. Don't push for too long. Lots of goodies associated with this. Then try taking off some hair from the top of his foot....just one or two swipes. Do that for several days and gradually increase what you do. Save between the toes for later. Anyhow, you get the drift. Do these things very gradually and with lots of good things paired with it. You want him to not feel forced because he'll hate it for evermore if you do...take it slowly. Usually, once a dog gets onto this gradual conditioning, they learn HOW TO LEARN and things go much quicker as time goes on.

He is a very extremely picky eater and I've tried TONS of food

Choose a good quality food and put it on the floor for him for 15-20 minutes, then pick it up and refrigerate it until the next meal. My dogs don't always eat their food. Unless he's a tiny, young Poodle, he's not likely to get hypoglycemia, especially with all the little training treats he'll get throughout the day. Don't skip around anymore and don't worry. He'll eat when he's hungry.

he cowers and acts afraid to get out of his car seat (but is excited to get in it!)

Keep your body as close as possible to him while getting him out. Maybe he's afraid he's going to fall. Otherwise, you'll have to just do the best you can. Act like it's no big deal and do it swiftly so that fear doesn't last long. 

he cowers and acts afraid whenever we go anywhere (and we did socialize him as a pup! recently I've given up and just leave him at home)

I think I'd just leave him at home most of the time too. His little temperament is just weak and it's going to be hard to over come everything. Leave him where he's comfortable. More stress is not what this little fella needs. 

He tries to run out of open doors (but that's improving) 

You can train him to stay back. I've been doing that with my three dogs. Have him sit behind the threshold and treat. Treat frequently before he gets a chance to break the stay. Gradually add pressure on the duration but stay right close to him. Use a long but loose line and have someone else hold him so he can't run out into the road. Once he's staying with pretty good duration (work up one second at a time) start trying some distance. Take one step away from him and return immediately. One more step and so on. Then gradually combine distance and duration. Then distractions later. If he breaks it, you've asked too much too soon. Go back to where he was successful. No punishment whatsoever with this dog. Reward or nothing. 

I can't have a rug or towel by the patio door, he eats it and destroys it. This is annoying cuz I like clean floors!

Supervise him well. Intercept before he gets hold of the rug. Show him a better toy (You'll have to find a better toy) and get him interested in that. Reward for playing with that. Or you could find an old thread bare rug and turn that into his toy. He can learn the difference between that and your good rugs. Distract, give an alternative, and reward highly. Try to prevent it in the first place so he doesn't get more chances to practice this behavior. 

I can't leave bedroom doors open, he gets into everything

He's still young. Keep the doors closed so he can't get into everything. I still have to keep my Poodles from the upstairs with a baby gate or they'd get into novel stuff. They're over 2 years old! lol. Prevention. It's part of having dogs, some of this stuff you speak of.

I can't leave (or drop) anything on the floor, he steals it and he resource guards it and we can't get it back unless he feels like trading for a treat. He will growl and snap at us. and I mean we can't leave anything, not a basket of laundry, not a grocery bag, NOTHING.

You need to teach him to leave it and give you things...retrieving games are good too. He needs to learn that by leaving it, he _WILL_ get it. 

Please watch this video and the other parts to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEeS2dPpPtA


Another video to help with self control: Please watch all parts: https://vimeo.com/8132043


continued...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I can't leave the bathroom door open, he eats and rips up toilet paper

Close the bathroom door or put the toilet paper up high. Or supervise and intercept, distract, give an alternative and reward.

He isn't interested in playing with other dogs, even small ones


Some dogs just don't like other dogs.

He isn't interested in going swimming or having much to do with water besides getting his feet wet


Some dogs don't like water. As they say, " you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it." I've had only a few dogs that like water. I think you're expecting too much with some of these items.



He growls and snaps at anyone who comes near him when I am holding him. I try not to hold him often due to this.


Associate people with good things and use distance to counter condition him. 

He growls and snaps at anyone who is done holding him and decides to put him down, when he doesn't want to be put down.

Hold a high value treat in front of his nose, let him lick it on the way down and give. Pick him back up if that's what he likes. Repeat putting him down...lots of praise and treat. Show him that nothing bad will happen by setting him down. *Honestly, I'd get a behaviorist to come evaluate what is going on*.

Note: I am doing Susan Garrett's Recallers. It's WONDERFUL. I am trying to have hope that by the end he will improve. But I can't even do all the games correctly, because if I put a leash on him, he sits depressed and won't cooperate. 

Here's my conclusion: I have a dog that wants to stay home all day, snuggle and occasionally play a short bit in the backyard. 

I can live with that, (but we will get another dog for sure if this is the case) but I can't live with having him under my feet all day getting into mischief. The last couple days, I got his ex pen back out and have been keeping him in it whenever I can't supervise him. I feel terrible, but it's such a relief to have a break!

Please help... thoughts of rehoming are going through my head and it's making me heartbroken and sad and frustrated.... 

__________________



If you don't think you're going to bond with this guy, there's nothing wrong with re-homing him. Maybe someone with a less active life with fewer expectations would do just fine with him. I'd get that snapping and fear based aggression under control, with behavior modification and by management.


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## shelhey (Jul 16, 2014)

Can I just explain that I am a mother first, full time for 16 years. When I see my baby boys face after he gets growled at and snapped at and bitten, yes I think about getting rid of the dog. Because it breaks my heart when my son cries because he loves Happy and is confused because he's so good to him. I do not want to re home him. I am very bonded to him. I will only do it off its best for him. If he needs a quiet home without moody teenagers and a family of yellers. That's the only thing I can figure. 

Yes I'm very inexperienced. isn't everyone before they get their first dog? Or before they have their first baby?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Wow, just wow.


Last word of advice I'll give you since you don't seem to appreciate the over an hour I spent on that post, digging up helpful videos and offering my professional tips. Get rid of that dog. I didn't realize he was biting your baby's face. WTF. I missed something.


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## shelhey (Jul 16, 2014)

I'm sorry, what do you mean poodlebeguiled?


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## shelhey (Jul 16, 2014)

To clarify, I was responding to a couple people who said I wasnt bonded to him, not just you.

I called my ten year old son my baby boy. Hes ten. 

He doesn't bite his face. Hes never broken skin.

I've expressed my appreciation over and over. I apologize I didn't in my last post. I'm feeling defensive how people think I'm not bonded. I have little free time I'm a busy mom. I spend every free second I have reading and training and spendng with my dog.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

It's impossible to know how bonded anyone is with their dog. All we have here is the Internet. If you're very bonded, then try some of the suggestions given. It just seemed like a weird response to me, that's all. Okay, moving along. What do you think about getting a certified, reputable behaviorist in to evaluate things? If you feel like it's best for all concerned to rehome the dog, I just wanted to say that there's no shame in that. It would be hard, for sure because I know you love your dog. But sometimes a different situation works better for some dogs. You seem quite concerned about a lot of things that are pretty normal behavior for an immature dog. This is a puppy, right? Sometimes I forget what I read. Most of the puppy shenanigans clear up as they become adults, with minimal training....things like chewing up toilet paper. These little antics he does, these little getting into things stuff would actually make me happy because it's showing he's brave enough to try new things. He's a insecure and timid dog so any kind of stepping out would be a good sign to me. Just gently dissuade him and turn him onto something else. And in time those kinds of things will dissipate. 

The more confidence he has, the less likely he'll be to snarl and snap. But I think you need professional help with that. And who knows...in time, a lot of his issues may resolve enough that he'll be a more enjoyable pet. Some of it may be just him and you can't change personality. 

Good luck.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Well you have been given some bad advice, and a tremendous amount of good advice.
Not trying to be boastful, but as an experienced dog owner, from what you describe, I think that I could completely turn your dog around in maybe two weeks time. He will probably always be more of a homebody, not terribly social, but all of the negative behaviors in the home could be turned around pretty easily with the appropriate responses. 

I know that, because I believe that my 13 year old Teaka started out very similar to your baby, and I did indeed shape her into a wonderful dog who is a delight to live with (but is a homebody). I was smarter about what to ask for in my next puppy, and I did get pretty much the perfect dog, but not for anything would I have missed all the joy that Teaka brought to my life.

Anyhow, what I wanted to suggest is that possibly you could seek out a very good positive reinforcement trainer who could do a board/train kind of thing, coupled with a lot of instruction about how you should proceed once he comes home. 

I am thinking that at this point you are so anxious, even a little scared of his behavior that it would be difficult for you to do the initial training, no matter how good a plan you were given, but if he was handed back to you as a dog who already knew how to respond well to the appropriate treatment, it would be much easier for you to consistently respond and perpetuate his good behavior.


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## Tabatha (Apr 21, 2015)

Shelhey, Poodle Beguiled provided a plethora of great advice.

Susan Garrett is great but not all dogs are as driven as JRTs and Border Collies! Your dog may be picking up on your frustration, he needs to know you have his back in all situations and that he can trust you no matter what. If you're feeling frustrated, walk away, go into another room and cry or scream into a pillow if that's what you have to do.

I strongly recommend picking up the book, For the Love of a Dog by Patricia McConnell. It's not a how-to book but rather an insight into the mind of dogs which may help you better understand why he does things he does. It may also help you take a better course of action or perhaps accept him the way he is. Check out Patricia McConnell's website, there may be other books which can help you.

Amazon book or Kindle
Audio Book


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Shelhey, I have no personal experience with any of this, but I just have to say that I think it's wonderful that you have received all of this great and positive advice! I hope you can get things turned around for your little boy. 
Kathy


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Why? What's wrong with tug? It's a known confidence building game. It needs rules. The dog needs to learn to "give" when asked. And not to grab or hit you with his teeth. If that happens, game over. But it's a great game to help a dog become more secure when he's afraid or timid. A lot of timid dogs won't even play tug.
> 
> With all of this dog's issues, it doesn't seem like the OP is playing tug according to all your suggested rules. Improper playing of tug can make a dog more defensive/fearful (you choose the word). When/if she gets professional help for this dog, the person who actually sees the dog's behavior in-house can determine if that game is useful for this dog. We can't really tell on the internet! Until then, IMO, she should stop playing tug with this dog and get professional help.
> 
> The limitation of the internet for behaviorists and trainers alike is that we can't see/read the dogs' reactions online nor have we interviewed the OP in house. Despite the science of behavior modification, there too many unknowns to chart a course of action given the complexity of human/animal interactions online. It's really shameful that behaviorists and trainers slam each other online when BOTH really need to SEE/READ the dog AND owners to truly understand what's going on in the home. Get professional help. Good luck with you pup!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

slamming? huh?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

desiree - just looked up your site. lovely dogs.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

We all have our opinions. Mine is that unless this dog has a resource guarding problem with regard to the tug toy and doesn't see it as a game, I'd try playing with him. She said the dog likes the game. I didn't read about any problems with it. The dog is tending toward fearfulness, timidity and when the dog gets to play and win at the game of tug, I've seen it build confidence in dogs which in turn tends to reduce defensive behavior. As long as it's done nicely, where there's something in it for the dog, and not forcefully, the dog learns to give when asked (trade for a tasty treat and say "give" and give the toy back again, repeat) and resume the game again. This dog doesn't strike me as the wild type. Correct me if I'm wrong Shelhey. Sometimes overly rambunctious dogs will leap up and grab the toy from your hand and nick you with their teeth. That's to be discouraged by stopping the game momentarily. Or they'll not let go when asked. These little things can be taught. I just didn't get the idea from reading the posts that this was a wild, overly exuberant dog. 

If a dog has a resource guarding issue with all his toys, then that has to be addressed. But the way I perceived this dog, it seemed to me to be a fine game to play. And she's already playing it along with fetch. Fetch is also a great choice because it wards off resource guarding by it's very nature...bringing something back to the owner. 

If there's something I misread or have forgotten that I read (I do that sometimes) let me know. I certainly didn't think I slammed you Deseree. If I did, I'm sorry.


eta: Here's something about tug that might help. I don't use as many rules as she mentions but I have my own set that keeps 'em line: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/11_9/features/Fun-Games-To-Play-With-Your-Dog_16059-1.html


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## shelhey (Jul 16, 2014)

You're right poodlebeguilded. Never mentioned any problems with resource guardian this toys, it's only when he grabs stuff we drop or gets into something cuz a door got left open. 

As for others advice about not playing tug, Just because my dog has issues doesn't mean every single interaction we have all day long is awful, terrible and wrong. And I did read Susan Garretts information about Tug, she provided us with a lot of it in Recallers. I was thankful I had something to do with Happy that we BOTH enjoyed. We are still working on "drop it" he isn't perfect yet, but he has never bitten me or gotten wild. 

Thanks again everyone.


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## shelhey (Jul 16, 2014)

I am not going to be posting to this thread anymore, and wanted everyone to know how much I appreciated them taking the time out of their day to try to help me. I heave learned lot and am definitely taking some of the advice. 

I think that it’s hard in a situation like this to really read or interrupt correctly. However, I feel a few things said were unjust. 

There were a couple things that I wanted to address, 


quote from loves
_“Honestly, and this will get me flamed, but I think as a first time dog owner you expected the perfect ideal dog.... They are not all the same. My cockers never played with other dogs or each other once they passed puppy stage. Drove visiting dogs crazy. You wanted a dog that is always active, ready to walk everywhere with you, go everywhere with you, play fetch whenever you desired, a dog that loves all other dogs, a dog that doesn't get into trash, shred papers or rugs, etc. The perfect dog, which does not exist. I would talk to the breeder and send him back. All I hear in your posts is how unhappy you are with this dog, how he isn't living up to your expectations. Send him back”_

I just want to briefly respond to that. You are probably right, I have too high of expectations. I just wanted to know if others could tell me if their adult poodles grew out of some of these behaviors. For example, do I have to keep my bathroom door closed for the rest of his life? However I don’t appreciate you saying I am always saying how unhappy I am with my dog. I am asking for help and advice, not whining and complaining. How you can just tell me to send him back (twice) is offensive. I said that when the thoughts enter my head I am heartbroken! He isn’t an item I bought at the store that I decided I don’t want anymore. He is my dog! Is that what you do when you aren’t pleased with the temperament and personality of any dog you get? Just send him back? Or do you go to the internet for help? That’s all I am doing. (or was doing)

quote from Eric
_I hesitate to say this but, It sounds like your puppy was poorly socialized before you got him. Secondly it sounds like you had very little previous experience in training. It is easy for those who have had dogs all their lives to critique but many of us correct or reinforce behavior without thinking. Your puppy needed experienced care when he first arrived. His "bad" behavior is now ingrained and will need extensive corrective training. Much of the behavior you describe is that expected of a raw puppy. If not corrected while young this behavior can become routine and dogs are very big on routine. It is my opinion that this dog will require a lot of time spent correcting his problems to your standard. Since you have thought of re-homing it is likely you have not bonded strongly with this dog. Please consider finding a new home for him with an experienced dog handler. Then you might consider a mature dog say 3 y/o who has been trained and socialized. Not easy to find, but some breeders let go dogs who are not perfectly conformed for breeding but might well have been well trained and socialized. Also for walking out a mini or a standard might be a better choice.
Eric_

Again, thanks for taking time to try to help me. However, I am confused why you would say my puppy needed experienced care when he first arrived. Are you seriously implying that people who were never dog owners aren’t allowed to become dog owners? You have no idea about my life and why we couldn’t have a dog. We are seriously allergic to everything. It is with great financial sacrifice that we have been doing allergy shots for three years. We don’t take vacations, we don’t go out to eat. I did this to get my children a dog. I didn’t expect to fall in love with him as I did. It’s hurtful that you can say I haven’t bonded with him. When he is growling and snapping and my children are afraid and emotionally hurt by it, of course I think of my chlidren first. I said when thought of rehoming come into my head it breaks my heart. I didn’t say, “my dog is annoying, give me support with my decision to rehome him”. 

And for the record, I dont’ know why people think toy poodles can’t handle walks. They are DOGS.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Who said Toy Poodles can't handle walks? I have yet to take a walk too long for Timi - she came back from our walk and run at the dog park today and immediately started doing zoomies all over the place, she still had so much energy. Teaka on the other hand, she is just too hyper reactive to stimuli outside, and with this heat would wind up collapsing because she gets so hyped up outside, so she stayed home in the air conditioning. We play ball inside at least twice a day, so she gets her exercise too.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

And I know that you love your dog and are not giving up on him - you are the only one who is actually seeing what is going on in person, so you are the judge of what advice and impressions fit, and what doesn't - toss out the advice that does not fit, and make good use of what does, depending upon the situation, I think that there are some gems here, so please don't let your annoyance at the misses keep you from seeing them!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

You mean you don't want your dog doing this forever? This was in a hotel room at a dog show. My dignified, winner of a dog:



At home...he sure loved doing this when he was a puppy.



Then he grew out of it and I was sad. Then he turned two and 2 months old and he did it again after not touching the stuff for months and months, only not as good a job....not camera worthy. That was a week ago. But he doesn't do stuff like that much anymore. 

They grow out of these shenanigans all in good time. Some learn quicker when their owners work harder at it. And some learn slower when their owners have a strange sense of humor and opt for the camera instead of the training. But hey, ya gotta have a little sense of humor or you'll never get through it. Try not to worry too much about some of these things like getting into things (that will level off eventually. It's a puppy/young dog thing) and mainly be concerned with dangerous behaviors like resource guarding (it sounds like he's resource guarding you) and the snarling, snapping. But get at that from the root of the problem and that's his insecurity I think...without seeing him. That fear is generating these defense behaviors. So, his fear triggers need to be alleviated somewhat. A behaviorist should be able to help with that. It may be something that never is perfect and has to be *managed *as opposed to treated. But I have no doubt, he'll mature and if you do some adjusting and he does some adjusting and meet somewhere in the middle, I think a nicer, more workable relationship will develop. 

I think when you mentioned you were considering re-homing him, some people took it to mean perhaps you weren't as bonded to him as you'd like. It was a mistake in interpretation. That's all. Try not to be offended. Nobody means anything bad by anything I'm pretty sure.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Who said Toy Poodles can't handle walks? I have yet to take a walk too long for Timi - she came back from our walk and run at the dog park today and immediately started doing zoomies all over the place, she still had so much energy. Teaka on the other hand, she is just too hyper reactive to stimuli outside, and with this heat would wind up collapsing because she gets so hyped up outside, so she stayed home in the air conditioning. We play ball inside at least twice a day, so she gets her exercise too.


Heck yeah...Maurice especially runs me ragged...even more so than Matisse, which surprises me after their puppy hood...Matisse was such an energetic pup. Maurice is a speed demon and loves to walk and walk and no...correction. He doesn't walk. He trots briskly...like a standardbred trotting horse and he'll go forever it seems. I need a sulky. lol. Of course, Matisse is too. But I'm just so interested in this tiny little smidgen of a 4 + lb poodle that can go like the energizer bunny. 

No, seriously...if your little dog would get past some of that fear...he could go hiking with you. Maybe a woodsy place might be more distracting to him and he'd forget his fears. Or maybe later after he's grown up a bit. Or maybe the next dog you get. 

My little Chihuahuas use to hike with me in the north panhandle of Idaho where I lived. They charged through the woods with my Lab and Dobe and kept right up. Of course the big dogs go up the trail and run back to me, then back up the trail so they wind up going about 3 or 4 times as far but we all stayed pretty much bunched up and they'd go for hours. 

Tiny...I see that a lot...people saying things like, "I can't have a toy. I want a hiking buddy." And I just have to laugh and shake my head. These little toys are great hiking buddies. They can go places the big dogs can't...through brush that you would not believe. They get sturdier and stronger with that exercise. Of course, it shouldn't be so excessive that it enlarges the heart muscle but gosh, they have a lot of energy, these Poodles. Whew!


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

"'Then he grew out of it and I was sad. Then he turned two and 2 months old and he did it again after not touching the stuff for months and months, only not as good a job....not camera worthy. That was a week ago. But he doesn't do stuff like that much anymore.'"

Poodlebeguiled, we call that arts 'n crafts in our home . I have some great photos of what my cat achieved in such a session, and learned years ago to keep the tp in the cabinet by the WC, not on the roller . Happily, my cat knows how to open the cabinet, so if he ever wants a session, he can simply open it and have at  arty2: arty2: . And of course Oliver is an inveterate tissue stealer and shredder (eats a bit, too, ick). It's pickable uppable by me, no problem. Architectural Digest isn't banging down my door to photograph, but then I wouldn't invite them anyway .

I think part of the surprise of becoming a pet owner is realizing life may not be as convenient as it would be without said pet(s). But, it would be far the poorer for the lack of richness of experience .


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

My "perfect" child lol


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Streetcar said:


> "'Then he grew out of it and I was sad. Then he turned two and 2 months old and he did it again after not touching the stuff for months and months, only not as good a job....not camera worthy. That was a week ago. But he doesn't do stuff like that much anymore.'"
> 
> Poodlebeguiled, we call that arts 'n crafts in our home . I have some great photos of what my cat achieved in such a session, and learned years ago to keep the tp in the cabinet by the WC, not on the roller . Happily, my cat knows how to open the cabinet, so if he ever wants a session, he can simply open it and have at  arty2: arty2: . And of course Oliver is an inveterate tissue stealer and shredder (eats a bit, too, ick). It's pickable uppable by me, no problem. Architectural Digest isn't banging down my door to photograph, but then I wouldn't invite them anyway .
> 
> .





> I think part of the surprise of becoming a pet owner is realizing life may not be as convenient as it would be without said pet(s). But, it would be far the poorer for the lack of richness of experience


 :adore:


Heh, heh, heh...love your post!!! You need pictures. Architectural Digest! ROFLOL!!! 


Oh and speaking of rugs. My dogs love destroying my rugs too. That really does make me mad. You should see how they've chewed the fringe on my $2,000 Oriental rug. They've taken off a whole corner of it. Grrrrrr. So, yeah, even we experienced dog people usually (unless we're so good and diligent) have puppy damage. I remember my Lab when she was a puppy. What a chewer...a good, calm, lovely puppy but boy did she chew. Got a hold of every attachment to my hubby's shop vac...chewed up the wood work on a door jam in my brand new house. Gee...who's fault was that? Methinks we weren't very good at supervising. So it's part of having a puppy. They're a p.i.t.a. but ohhhhhhh so cute. And they grow up and you have those destroyed things to remind you of them. I'll cherish the chewed rung on a beautiful antique chair when Maurice is long gone. It will remind me of him. 

When I was a little girl and visited my grandparents...after I left, my grandmother would start washing my sticky fingerprints off the glass on the sliding door and my grandfather would say, "goddamit Bertha, you just leave those fingerprints right there." LOL. I want to be like that. I'm not quite, but I'd like to be.

Okay...off topic much? But the OP didn't want to write anymore so why not? I'm hoping it will cheer her up and have hope that things stand a good chance of turning out all right.


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## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

Ok, this dog has bitten your son? In the face? Now a 10 year old should be old enough to know what should not be done to or around a dog, but also broken skin or no, in my household that dog would be gone. 

You house is loud with a lot of yelling? That could be a big part of the problem. In my experience, mini poodles are very soft hearted creatures, a lot of loud noise, yelling, etc. could very well have your dog on the edge at all times. A breed that can take anything and bounce back with a smile and wagging tail asking for more more more sounds more fitting to your household. Think of Labs or other calm very tolerant breeds. And this can also vary within a breed. I had a cocker bitch that my son showed in 4H and he knew that just a hard "No!" and her tail would go down, her head would droop, she took that one word so hard. Yet I've had other cockers that could care less what you did or said, they would keep bouncing back for more with tails wagging and a happy smile on their face. Nope, little Happy does not sound like the right fit for your family.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Heck yeah...Maurice especially runs me ragged...even more so than Matisse, which surprises me after their puppy hood...Matisse was such an energetic pup. Maurice is a speed demon and love...
> 
> 
> Tiny...I see that a lot...people saying things like, "I can't have a toy. I want a hiking buddy." And I just have to laugh and shake my head. These little toys are great hiking buddies. They can go places the big dogs can't...through brush that you would not believe. They get sturdier and stronger with that exercise. Of course, it shouldn't be so excessive that it enlarges the heart muscle but gosh, they have a lot of energy, these Poodles. Whew!


Sorry I didn't quote all of your post. Just mainly wanted to respond to the last part of it. Being a Toy Poodle mom for a lot of years, my dogs were very much my hiking buddies! My goodness, my husband and I, along with our Toy Poodles, used to backpack several miles into the wilderness, on many ( many) occasions and they LOVED it. We just had to take it slow and easy, and do it during a time when it wasn't extremely hot. Trixie was the only one that got tired pretty quickly, and I would then put her into my front carrier pack, and carried her that way, and she loved that. But overall, ABSOLUTELY, hikes and backpacking was a regular thing for my Poodles!!

Of course, my dogs were regular size Toys. I don't think I would recommend long hikes for the real tiny Poodles. 

Kathy


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Wow...I just read this whole thread and it is very telling. You title it, "Still frustrated and losing hope," and then when you receive a lot of GREAT advice, you focus on the negative statements that YOU don't agree with.

I remember your one of your first threads and I told you then you had the wrong dog for your family. That does not mean that you could not find another dog that would work perfectly. I think it is sad for your dog to try to fit where it does not. Most all of my dogs are re-homes that did not fit somewhere else.... someone showed great love letting them go.

I don't think for a minute you are not trying, that you have not tried your very best, I can see that you love him. For another dog you would make a great dog owner, but it isn't this dog.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

So the OP has said she isn't going to post to this thread anymore (and I assume she probably doesn't plan to read it anymore either). Why are people still beating her up? We don't know the full story of what her life is like or how her issues came to be what they are. I think it is silly to keep at this when she isn't listening. I have read every post in this thread, but I don't think some of you who have opined about her needing to rehome the dog have done so. That clearly isn't what she wants. 

I hope she finds the help she needs and the peace to make a good relationship with her dog. Before I joined PF (which was when Lily was already five years old) there were many frustrating moments with her and Peeves. There were many times that I asked myself if she really had been a good idea. I thought about tying both of them to the stop sign on the corner with signs on their necks saying "free, please take us." We can all have dark moments with training puppies and young dogs. Rather than having a contest over which of us knows best it would have been nice if the OP actually got support (which she did) without all the criticism (which just alienated her).


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## PaddysMom (May 7, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> View attachment 276074
> 
> My "perfect" child lol



OMG, that is so funny, Tiny Poodles! Love the way he (she?) is looking sideways to see if anyone has noticed. Busted!


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

lily cd re said:


> So the OP has said she isn't going to post to this thread anymore (and I assume she probably doesn't plan to read it anymore either). Why are people still beating her up? We don't know the full story of what her life is like or how her issues came to be what they are. I think it is silly to keep at this when she isn't listening. I have read every post in this thread, but I don't think some of you who have opined about her needing to rehome the dog have done so. That clearly isn't what she wants.
> 
> I hope she finds the help she needs and the peace to make a good relationship with her dog. Before I joined PF (which was when Lily was already five years old) there were many frustrating moments with her and Peeves. There were many times that I asked myself if she really had been a good idea. I thought about tying both of them to the stop sign on the corner with signs on their necks saying "free, please take us." We can all have dark moments with training puppies and young dogs. Rather than having a contest over which of us knows best it would have been nice if the OP actually got support (which she did) without all the criticism (which just alienated her).


THANK YOU~~ For coming forward and saying something!! I wanted to but didn't know exactly how to say it. Good post, and it's true, the OP needed our support( which she did get). Not criticism.

I came from the AOL Dog Boards ( they've been closed up for over 3 years now), and there were MANY times when someone posted, and all they needed was some advice, but MOSTLY, they were looking for our SUPPORT. But if the poster didn't take their advice, then they got slammed into the ground, and that ultimately ruined the whole thread. What I'm getting at is, people are suppose to be here to listen, offer advice, and offer support. IMHO, there's no need for anything else. If the poster takes the advice, or doesn't take the advice, that shouldn't matter. It's their life, their dog, and they need to do what's best for their own situation. 

Kathy


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

patk said:


> desiree - just looked up your site. lovely dogs.


Thanks! If you're interested, I'll be posting about the 2 pups I kept for gun dogs on my site and facebook. I will not be on this forum anymore as I'm to busy running a business and hunting/training my own dogs to write long posts. We've got to get out and enjoy life while we can!!!! It been grand!!:cheers2:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Kathy Ann said:


> Sorry I didn't quote all of your post. Just mainly wanted to respond to the last part of it. Being a Toy Poodle mom for a lot of years, my dogs were very much my hiking buddies! My goodness, my husband and I, along with our Toy Poodles, used to backpack several miles into the wilderness, on many ( many) occasions and they LOVED it. We just had to take it slow and easy, and do it during a time when it wasn't extremely hot. Trixie was the only one that got tired pretty quickly, and I would then put her into my front carrier pack, and carried her that way, and she loved that. But overall, ABSOLUTELY, hikes and backpacking was a regular thing for my Poodles!!
> 
> *Of course, my dogs were regular size Toys. I don't think I would recommend long hikes for the real tiny Poodles. *
> 
> Kathy


You haven't seen Maurice. LOL. He could outlast many dogs. 

But that carrier pack was a good thing to bring along when your Trixie, such a young pup needed a little break.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't think that letting a first time dog owner know that she may not have the right dog is picking on her at all. If you can look at a re-home as a loving thing to do for your dog and not a failure, you can do it. I stand by my opinion that she would be much happier and so would the little guy if she could see it in her heart to find the right match for her family. I also think she is raising a young boy to grow up and be a man that does not like dogs and that would be so sad. I feel sorry for people that don't know what it is to love a dog. Dogs are not a one size fits all, some people don't know this and they pick the wrong breed/dog. It is sad for all involved. Her dog would be perfect in so many homes. It would be easy to place and try again. I don't see any thing wrong with that.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Carly'smom and Loves. I totally see your points and agree for the most part. However, I think it's worth one more try. She really does love the dog and wants to try and help it. I agree that_ IF _the house is loud and there's a lot of tension, scolding etc, then that could be a lot of the cause for the dog's issues. But it's hard to say for sure what it's like there. You may be absolutely right about finding another home and perhaps getting a tougher breed. Poodles are indeed very sensitive. I've had a lot of sensitive dogs too....the Poodles, my Doberman was very sensitive just like the Poodles, the Chihuahuas too. Loud stuff really makes them nervous. 

If this biting doesn't get under control asap, the dog won't be very adoptable and I sure wouldn't want that in my house. I wouldn't keep a dog that bit. But I'm hoping a behaviorist can help out and show them how to do things so that the dog won't feel a need to bite. I'd be much more worried with a big dog with bigger teeth. But it doesn't mean that this should go on...of course not.

So with only the Internet to go on for trying to get a picture...it's really easy to misinterpret things, I would think it would be fine to try and see with professional help, if the dog can improve. If not, go from there. She was thinking of rehoming. And I agree...no shame in that...better to make sure that these combinations of humans and dogs fit like a hand in a glove. But it sounds like she'd like to give it another try and make sure she'd done everything possible and practical. I wish only the best for the family and the little dog and I hope too much time doesn't pass before there is some good, successful behavior modification OR...the dog is placed in a home that may work better for him.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Carley's Mom said:


> I don't think that letting a first time dog owner know that she may not have the right dog is picking on her at all. If you can look at a re-home as a loving thing to do for your dog and not a failure, you can do it. I stand by my opinion that she would be much happier and so would the little guy if she could see it in her heart to find the right match for her family. I also think she is raising a young boy to grow up and be a man that does not like dogs and that would be so sad. I feel sorry for people that don't know what it is to love a dog. Dogs are not a one size fits all, some people don't know this and they pick the wrong breed/dog. It is sad for all involved. Her dog would be perfect in so many homes. It would be easy to place and try again. I don't see any thing wrong with that.


That's true, and I can see your point. However, I don't think that's what she really wanted to hear ( at this time). She wanted to get help as to what kinds of things to try before she had to even consider the rehoming option. And she DID get a lot of wonderful advice. 

The way I think is, everyone gives advice out differently. Being brutally honest is one way. But I also think that's the best way for a person to shut down and not even LISTEN to what everyone is saying. I think in this case, the OP was focusing more on the negative things that were being said to her that she couldn't ( at that moment anyway) absorb the positive advice that was being given out. 

That's how I saw it anyway.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well I reached out personally to the OP. There are things she hasn't spoken of publically and which are not any one's real business other than her own. I think you all are pretty clueless about her love for her dog or her situation or her willingness to do right by all concerned!

I will PM the mods now to ask that this thread be closed. It is serving no useful purpose for people to keep on here.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

shelhey said:


> Can I just explain that I am a mother first, full time for 16 years. When I see my baby boys face after he gets growled at and snapped at and bitten, yes I think about getting rid of the dog. Because it breaks my heart when my son cries because he loves Happy and is confused because he's so good to him. I do not want to re home him. I am very bonded to him. I will only do it off its best for him. If he needs a quiet home without moody teenagers and a family of yellers. That's the only thing I can figure.
> 
> Yes I'm very inexperienced. isn't everyone before they get their first dog? Or before they have their first baby?


I am a mother of 6, as much as i love my dog their safety comes first.
I could probably ignore half the things on your list, but not the growling or snapping.
I agree with the others to try everything you can including the behaviorist to help Happy with his issues. However, if that doesn't help I would re home happy. Your first priority should be the safety of your children.
I agree with you about being inexperienced and yes it is like having your first baby learning everything day to day.......
I have moody teens and loads of yellers too , Zoe adjusted easily to this since that is all she knew from 8 weeks on. I kind of think she thrives on the crazy house and would be bored living with an old lady.
I am sure you explained this to your breeder and if she gave you a dog that can not exist in that environment perhaps she should consider taking Happy back.?
My heart breaks for you and your children, I am so sorry and hope you can resolve these issues. I am giving you a lot of credit for working so hard on it. I feel like you have been very patient. :adore:


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Wow, in the 5 minutes i took to write my post all hell broke loose.

All Happy's mom was doing is looking for some advice. She must be so frustrated!!! I can not imagine her situation 

Aren't we all here for support and encouragement? Now she doesn't even want to post in this thread anymore.
It is shameful!


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

shelhey said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> It's me again, complaining about my dog. I just emailed my breeder asking her thoughts. I made a list, I wanted to share with you and get opinions. Please be brutally honest. Am I just being unrealistic about being a dog owner? I've never done this before...


I just read the entire thread because of the PM I received and I never once saw anything remotely "brutal"... there was some honesty, but that's what the OP asked for. 

I am not inclined to close this thread because there have been a LOT of good suggestions and discussion.

I will be monitoring however, so keep your suggestions positive - even if the OP isn't reading this thread anymore it doesn't mean it won't help someone else in a similar situation. 

If the OP has a strong argument for needing this thread closed, I'll listen (she can PM me if she wants), but until I see rules being broken, there's no reason to close, IMO. Personally, I think almost everyone was getting along great in this thread!

Barb


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

except that the op left the thread. says something to me about how she perceived the getting along fine part. jmo.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

*“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.” * :focus: :nod:

― John Lydgate


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

you can't cure stupid is a favorite saying around here. i wonder why.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

plumcrazy said:


> I just read the entire thread because of the PM I received and I never once saw anything remotely "brutal"... there was some honesty, but that's what the OP asked for.
> 
> I am not inclined to close this thread because there have been a LOT of good suggestions and discussion.
> 
> ...


Still a productive discussion with lots of good suggestions?


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## Tabatha (Apr 21, 2015)

lily cd re said:


> Still a productive discussion with lots of good suggestions?


Absolutely! I'm sure there are others who may be going through a similar situation.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Tabatha said:


> Absolutely! I'm sure there are others who may be going through a similar situation.



But not a productive word has been said since "Lily" asked to close the thread.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

If you don't like the thread, go away!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Tabatha, I didn't say the thread should be taken down, just closed to further comments. There were some useful suggestions here and I don't think they shouldn't be visible. But since the OP left this thread a long time ago it seems like beating a dead horse to keep it open. Anyone can leave any thread or the forum anytime they want. Personally I am not going any where. But I guess some people just have to have the last word.


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## mokicruz (Feb 28, 2011)

Desiree said:


> Thanks! If you're interested, I'll be posting about the 2 pups I kept for gun dogs on my site and facebook. I will not be on this forum anymore as I'm to busy running a business and hunting/training my own dogs to write long posts. We've got to get out and enjoy life while we can!!!! It been grand!!:cheers2:


Went to facebook and it's not very busy yet. I would like to see your pups.


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