# UKC v. AKC



## roxy25

Liz said:


> I'm new to showing and have a really basic question. Can someone explain to me why I might want to show in the UKC instead of the AKC? I'm curious why, if both are available, I would choose the UKC.


I see you have a Parti poodle in your avatar is this the puppy you want to show if so you can only show UKC. 

UKC is more relaxed no other dog of your breed has to show up for your dog to become a Champion. Depending on where you live there may not be any competition at all. No pro handlers in UKC no hair spray, most dogs in UKC are in a pet clip not groomed as well either.

AKC its harder and you have to have actual competition to get Majors. You need 3 majors and 15 points to get AKC Ch. Grooming needs to be on point and you can either handle your dog yourself or hire a Pro Handler. 

There is politics in Both registries some like to say UKC is all fun and no politics this is BS since I been going to AKC and UKC shows with our boy Enzo. I have experience Politics in UKC just as Much in AKC.


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## Liz

Thanks for the explanation, Roxy.


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## Purley

I don't wish to be rude, but quite frankly it seems a little ridiculous to show in the UKC because it would seem to me that being a champion in the UKC means practically nothing. From your explanation, my take on it is that you don't have to have a good dog, you don't have to have good grooming -- so really - why would anyone bother??

Our kennel club and lots of other run fun matches -- seems like a win in a fun match would have just as much prestige.


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## OverTheTopFarm

*Well ... I disagree ...*



roxy25 said:


> I see you have a Parti poodle in your avatar is this the puppy you want to show if so you can only show UKC.
> 
> UKC is more relaxed no other dog of your breed has to show up for your dog to become a Champion. Depending on where you live there may not be any competition at all. No pro handlers in UKC no hair spray, most dogs in UKC are in a pet clip not groomed as well either.
> 
> AKC its harder and you have to have actual competition to get Majors. You need 3 majors and 15 points to get AKC Ch. Grooming needs to be on point and you can either handle your dog yourself or hire a Pro Handler.
> 
> There is politics in Both registries some like to say UKC is all fun and no politics this is BS since I been going to AKC and UKC shows with our boy Enzo. I have experience Politics in UKC just as Much in AKC.


I'll take these one at a time:
"I see you have a Parti poodle in your avatar is this the puppy you want to show if so you can only show UKC." I've heard this may change for the AKC in the future ... I hope so.

"UKC is more relaxed no other dog of your breed has to show up for your dog to become a Champion. Depending on where you live there may not be any competition at all." ... Not entirely true; it is true that you could get points IF you win group even if there were not any other in your breed. BUT in order for you to win group you have to be a better example of your breed than any of the other dogs representing any of the other breeds in your group.

"No pro handlers in UKC no hair spray, most dogs in UKC are in a pet clip not groomed as well either." ... Well you started off ok ... true there are no pro handles allowed, there is also no hair spray or other types of enhancements, but technically they shouldn't be in AKC either! Then, you go on to stay that most are in a pet clip but the UKC rules state they have to be either corded or in one of several specific clips: puppy, english saddle, continental, or sporting. Then we get to where I really disagree: you say they are "not groomed as well" ... Just because few of them are in a continental, and that they are not using products or enhancements, does not mean they are not groomed well. 

I do believe that UKC is more relaxed ... they emphasize the family nature of showing. I also recognize there is still politics and snottiness in both venues. So, I hope you don't take offense at my disagreement, I just get so frustrated ...


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## NOLA Standards

R.E.: AKC accepting parti's for conformation....

Wouldn't hold my breathe on that one - sad but realistic.

And though Roxy could clarify for herself... I'd read that as "UKC dogs are not as well groomed as AKC dogs" you could also insert AKC dogs that _win_.

Not that UKC dogs aren't groomed. Just the level of grooming is raised to an art in AKC confirmation competition.

Now let the debates begin!


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## jak

Roxy meant the quality of Grooming, not the clip or style. I see so many poorly groomed poodles in most of the UKC pictures that I have seen... Continentals included.... 
I can't say myself, but It would not surprise me if there weren't politics in UKC, there are politics wherever you go ...


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## cbrand

The thing that makes me mad is that it was not made clear to you by your breeder that Parti coloring is a disqualifying fault in AKC and that UKC would be your only option. Give UKC a try. You will have fun! However, do your breed proud by learning how to correctly groom and handle.


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## Liz

Just to clarify - I am not interested in showing a multicolored poodle. Both the UKC and AKC are available. Thank you.


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## Feralpudel

Are you showing a standard poodle? Were you thinking of owner-handling? If so, you are in a fiercely competitive area with some of the top pro handlers in AKC. The downside of that is that you will probably lose a lot, at least at first. The upside is that you can watch and learn, especially if you can get a mentor. Antoinette's mom has done this with a red spoo--not an easy color to show. I also think that for an outgoing dog who enjoys being at shows, showing is great socialization. 

Are you taking handling classes?


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## roxy25

jak said:


> Roxy meant the quality of Grooming, not the clip or style. I see so many poorly groomed poodles in most of the UKC pictures that I have seen... Continentals included....
> I can't say myself, but It would not surprise me if there weren't politics in UKC, there are politics wherever you go ...



Yes the quality of grooming is poor .... I never seen any dogs in my area in CC all are just shaved down to about 2 inches of hair. I will say the quality of dogs is poor also. usually the people who can not win AKC show up to UKC for a title ( solely speaking about AKC breeds) Some use UKC to practice which We did we stopped going because it was a waste of money and time after a few shows lol 

Yes there Politics Jak people want to say there aren't any in UKC ..... I have been to a show where it was rigged and you already knew who would win ...


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## roxy25

OverTheTopFarm said:


> I'll take these one at a time:
> "I see you have a Parti poodle in your avatar is this the puppy you want to show if so you can only show UKC." I've heard this may change for the AKC in the future ... I hope so.
> 
> 
> 
> I would not hold my breathe like Nola said
> 
> "UKC is more relaxed no other dog of your breed has to show up for your dog to become a Champion. Depending on where you live there may not be any competition at all." ...
> 
> 
> 
> Not entirely true; it is true that you could get points IF you win group even if there were not any other in your breed. BUT in order for you to win group you have to be a better example of your breed than any of the other dogs representing any of the other breeds in your group.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes if you show up and you are the only poodle you win then go to group if only two people show up in group and you win , thats not a big deal LOL I honestly don't think UKC judges know what a poodle should look like. They have the american pit bull terriers down but not Poodles.
> 
> "No pro handlers in UKC no hair spray, most dogs in UKC are in a pet clip not groomed as well either." ...
> 
> 
> 
> Well you started off ok ... true there are no pro handles allowed, there is also no hair spray or other types of enhancements, but technically they shouldn't be in AKC either! Then, you go on to stay that most are in a pet clip but the UKC rules state they have to be either corded or in one of several specific clips: puppy, english saddle, continental, or sporting. Then we get to where I really disagree: you say they are "not groomed as well" ... Just because few of them are in a continental, and that they are not using products or enhancements, does not mean they are not groomed well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most dogs I have seen winning not groomed well and the clips are pet clips or sporting ( I should say lol) , they look shaved down to about 1-2 inches no style or shaping. I have seen some in CC and they where not groomed nicely some don't even looked brushed. I have seen some serious parti breeders have really well groomed dogs and I applaud them for at least getting the grooming down. I can literally take Leila ( my puppy ) I have not brushed or groomed to a UKC show she would probably win a group. If you think they are groomed well then we will have to agree to disagree.
Click to expand...


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## roxy25

Liz said:


> Just to clarify - I am not interested in showing a multicolored poodle. Both the UKC and AKC are available. Thank you.


If you can show AKC I would go to some UKC shows so you can see how a show works. you can practice and get your feet wet. I would also find a breeder or handler in your area to groom your puppy or dog properly because if you have them in a sporting clip in UKC you will have to wait to grow coat for AKC. Its better to start off with a nice groom so you can transition easy. 

I would do what Feralpudel said find some handling classes , see if you can get references on the teachers. some teachers don't teach you a lot but go so your puppy or dog can get socialized and used to other dogs being around them while you gait them.

Pm your home address I will send you this handling book I have


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## OverTheTopFarm

Maybe it is different in other areas of the country ... but many of the spoos at the shows I have attended are in a reasonable CC, perhaps not as grown out yet, but they are obviously bathed, brushed, fluffed, etc. There are a number of them in a sporting clip, but considering many of them are also working dogs, it makes sense. It's not that they are just pulling them out of the kennel and showing up at the door. Granted, there are a few that aren't as well groomed, but many are. I have even attended a UKC show where the judge did NOT pass the dog on to the group ring. It is different in that no professional handlers, which means most are doing the grooming itself, so it may not be as "finished" of a picture, but it's not like they are sluffing. 

I think the UKC shows are nice to go to when you are learning; and I like that you don't have to sign up in advance; for many of them you can sign up day of which is nice for last minute decisions. There are also more of them in my area than AKC. It's a good place to get show ring mileage for you and your dog (although keeping in mind that to date, my ring experience has been in maltese, but I did monitor the poodle). I also find them less expensive, and normally I don't have to pay for parking like I do for the AKC shows.

Edited to add: UKC requires body hair on the sporting clip to be no longer than 1" ... that's why they are clipped so short.


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## cbrand

OverTheTopFarm said:


> I think the UKC shows are nice to go to when you are learning; and I like that you don't have to sign up in advance; for many of them you can sign up day of which is nice for last minute decisions. There are also more of them in my area than AKC. It's a good place to get show ring mileage for you and your dog (although keeping in mind that to date, my ring experience has been in maltese, but I did monitor the poodle). I also find them less expensive, and normally I don't have to pay for parking like I do for the AKC shows.


I think UKC can be a good way to get some ring experience especially if your dog is green and lacks confidence. However, the problem I see is that presentation and handling styles are very different between UKC and AKC. Example....What passes for acceptable carriage in UKC would never fly in AKC. 

I think that if someone aspires to show in AKC, which ultimately is more prestigious, then their time would be better spent hanging out at AKC shows and watching and learning from people who win in that venue.


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## grab

To be somewhat off topic, isn't it the Poodle club that sets the breed standard? Thus, wouldn't they have to change it to allow parti poodles (which I'm fond of, mind you) in order for the AKC to 'allow' them in shows? 

I know Chows more than poodles, but I know there was a movement wanting cream colored chows to be allowed to have flesh colored noses. It's very uncommon for creams here to keep their black pigment as they age and, since it isn't allowed through the standard, that pretty much eliminates showing long term for a cream dog. The club hasn't voted to approve that change, though, thus in AKC shows a cream must have a black nose. (which is just an example...I don't show OR have a cream)

I assume it's the same for other breeds..so it seems a bit misleading to say that the AKC itself won't allow partis. 

Back to your regularly scheduled programming, lol.


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## CharismaticMillie

Hmm...Interesting...so does that mean that the UKC is not following breed standard?

ETA: I just looked in the Poodle Club of America Illustrated Breed Standard and it does in fact say that Parti-Color Poodles are to be disqualified. So this means that the UKC is deviating from breed standard by allowing Partis to compete.


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## OverTheTopFarm

Grab, You are correct, it is the breed club that sets the standard for the AKC to accept. Each organization (akc, ckc, ukc, int'l, german, european, etc) sets their own breed standard. There is a movement within the PCA who sets it for the AKC (still small, but what I've heard is they are making headway) to no longer exclude the multi-colored poodles ... I do not believe this is in the near future, but I do believe it is in the future. What is interesting, (and boy am I hi-jacking and opening a great big train wreck here but maybe if it stays buried it won't be too bad) is that there are some who believe the continual single color breeding has caused an increase of the health issues the poodle is having. That the other countries where multi-colored poodles are acceptable and not disqualified for breeding/conformation showing purposes have a more diverse gene-pool and not as many health issues. Whew ... Where is that hiding on the chair icon?

What you are breeding for depends on the standard you are being judged against. There ARE differences in the standards of the various registries and there, in my humble opinion, is NOT a justifiable reason to "value" the standard of a single color more than that of a multi-color. The rest of the standard is very similar between the organizations. We should be judging, meaning placing, (and breeding for) dogs that meet the poodle type from a conformational and temperament perspective, keeping in mind a happy, healthy, hunting dog.


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## cbrand

Let me guess. You want to breed Partis.



OverTheTopFarm said:


> What is interesting, is that there are some who believe the continual single color breeding has caused an increase of the health issues the poodle is having.


Partis have all of the same health issues as solids and in fact more health issues since day blindness runs in a couple of Parti lines.

Re inter-breeding with a Parti for genetic diversity. :afraid: No solid breeder in their right mind would do this because you would introduce the mismark gene into your line and it is very hard to get rid of. If you breed Partis and Solids, in a couple of generations you will have nothing but Partis and mismarked dogs. 

The Kennel Club of England registered its first Poodle in 1874 and the Poodle Club of England was founded in 1876. The original standard called for SOLID COLORS ONLY and this standard was used by the Poodle Club of America as the basis for their standard. Since 1931 the Poodle standard in the US has called for Solid Colors Only. Since the beginning, Partis have never been accepted in our breed. 

As far as Partis being accepted in AKC? I don't think so. Currently the AKC, CKC, UK, FCI standards all call for SOLID COLOR DOGS ONLY. I don't see that changing. There is absolutely NO movement in PCA that I am aware of to legitimize the Parti coloring. Based on my observations, there is actually quite a lot of animosity against Partis and Parti breeders. I'm sure Gloria could give us some up close and personal insights.


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## OverTheTopFarm

cbrand said:


> Let me guess. You want to breed Partis.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Nope ... I've got solids. But ... I'm not a color snob. I just do not believe that a multi-colored dog is any less functional as a poodle than a solid one. I believe that the standards should be written and judged based on function, and what color a particular dog is, especially when you look at images of dogs that are supposed to be poodles from artwork from the 1700-1800's and they are multi-colored poodles and then due to some guy's prejudice that he only liked a solid colored dog, the colors had to be bred out to only solid dogs. No functional decision why ... and these are supposed to be working dogs, so function should rule.
> 
> I've bred and trained sporthorses for years and it drives me crazy that there are people who believe the only good sporthorse is bay.
> 
> Color of skin or hair is not what defines a good dog (or person); I do understand color requirements in dogs where historically they are a particular color (maltese, for example, are supposed to be white). But poodles have been multi-colored for centuries. I would like to add how pleased I am that we can have a nice conversation about this without it getting snarky.


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## cbrand

I think you have to be very careful when you identify the spotted dogs we see in paintings as being "Poodles". Many of them could easily be Spaniels. We should consider them proto Poodles that were the forefathers of modern dogs such as the Poodle, Spanish Water Dog and Portuguese Water Dog. 

Dedicated Poodle breeders breed solids because that is what our standard calls for. We work with the standard not at odds with it. I personally believe that the solid standard was set so that color would be less of an issue. Since you know horses, you will understand that color horse breeders all too often let color and not talent be the deciding factor in whether or not an animal is bred. e.g. With a few examples aside, are pinto sporthorses as good and talented over-all as solid color sporthorses? No.

The same is very true for dogs. A person with a Parti sees the color and suddenly that dog is breeding quality. A person with a solid Black looks at the structure, temperament and movement before deciding if that a dog is breedable.


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## OverTheTopFarm

cbrand said:


> Since you know horses, you will understand that color horse breeders all too often let color and not talent be the deciding factor in whether or not an animal is bred. e.g. With a few examples aside, are pinto sporthorses as good and talented over-all as solid color sporthorses? No.
> 
> The same is very true for dogs. A person with a Parti sees the color and suddenly that dog is breeding quality. A person with a solid Black looks at the structure, temperament and movement before deciding if that a dog is breedable.


Actually, you are making my point for me ... EVERYONE should look at structure, temperament and movement without regard to color. If you find an awesome specimen as far as structure, temperament, and movement yet it is has what AKC calls a mismark in color ... you are saying you would rather breed a dog that is less in structure, temperament or movement but not multi-colored. Frankly, I'd rather breed the dog not the color.

And ... you are talking to a sporthorse breeder of color, who takes strong offense to the statement that they arent "as good and talented over-all as solid color sporthorses." Talent and performance are not related to the color of the animal in either horses or poodles.


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## cbrand

BTW..... I have a degree in Art History. Almost all Parti breeders point to a painting attributed to George Stubb's to prove that Parti's were historically a part of the Poodle breed. I can not find this painting attributed to Stubbs anywhere but on a Parti breeder's' sites. Can anyone else? Here is the painting here but I can not find the artist's title:

http://www.caninehorizons.com/Parti_Poodle_History/IMAG003.JPG

Interestingly enough, I did find paintings legitimately painted by Stubb's. Here is a Stubb's painting titled White Poodle in Punt (1780):










While these paintings are titled:

Water Spaniel (1769)









Brown and White Norfolk Water Spaniel (1778):









Water Spaniel 1804









Rough Dog:












My point? It looks like those early curly Parti dogs were Spaniels of some sort and not Poodles.


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## cbrand

OverTheTopFarm said:


> And ... you are talking to a sporthorse breeder of color, who takes strong offense to the statement that they arent "as good and talented over-all as solid color sporthorses." Talent and performance are not related to the color of the animal in either horses or poodles.


Good horses come in all colors. However, as we say in horses: You can't ride color. 

Note (with few exceptions)
The top jumpers in this country are solid. 
The top dressage horses are solid. 
The top reiners are solid. 
The top Saddlebreds are solid.


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## PaddleAddict

This is a very interesting thread.

A question about the phantom and brindle poodles. It seems these are becoming more popular--is there any doubt that they are in fact purebred poodles? Before they became "hot" were these colors regularly appearing in parti litters. Not trying to bash any colors here, I think all poodles are beautiful. Just wondering...

Also, at a UKC show, I saw a poodle being shown in the multi-colored class that appeared to be a solid colored poodle with a large mismark on the chest. It seems to me that this is neither a good example of a solid or a parti, yet the breed standard allows this type of markings:

Abstract: Less than fifty percent white, with the remaining percent any other acceptable solid color.

It seems within the multi-colored standard that anything goes? Does anyone think this will change over time?


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## 4theLOVEofPOODLES

An interesting article on parti-poodles....

PartiPoodle History

Anyhow, parti's as of this point can only be shown in UKC as others I'm sure have stated. I didn't go reading through all of the comments but judging from just the first page..there are obviously a lot of negative opinions about UKC...

UKC is a great place to show dogs for experience. Now, I will note in here that just because some of you may have seen an extremely high amount of lower conformation quality dogs at your UKC shows doesn't mean this happens everywhere. In fact, where we live, we have a high amount of UKC shows compared to other states. A high percentage of the very same dogs that we compete with at UKC shows I see at AKC shows as well and many hold AKC titles. So, a UKC title does NOT always mean 'nothing' especially if there was tough competition. In the handful of times I have shown in UKC...half off the judges were AKC judges! One in fact was a well known AKC poodle judge. 

I think in general people enjoy showing their dogs and if given the opportunity that UKC provides of a more relaxed and less political atmosphere free of handlers then people like to take advantage of it. Its a great place to learn and enjoy the time with your dog. I have always worn a nice suit or dress clothes (some people don't), groomed my dog to the best of my abilities and made the most of it. I find UKC to be fun and people are friendly...probably due to everyone's lower stress levels 

Truth is...UKC is growing. There are good things about them and anyone that is going to put them down as whole really ought to take a closer look. I don't feel that a UKC title= an AKC title, but that doesn't mean UKC is the underdog. They are both very different and there are things I like about each.

I hope you have a good experience as I did. My very first time showing was at UKC where I was bit by the 'bug' and have enjoyed showing ever since. Good Luck!


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## tintlet

Sorry folks to get on this thread late. trying to remember all that was said..lol

Liz, it's nice to start with UKC. And if you want to get more involved , it's easy to shift to AKC. Its sort of fun to run with the Big Dogs 

It makes me sad to see the bickering over if UKC or AKC is better. They are very different venues. If you took all the pro handlers and hairspray from AKC, there would be a lot LESS CH's. Not many owners can keep up the coat or do as nice a job as the Pros. 

The quality at any show depends on who is entered. 

I do not like the way the AKC dogs are looking..way extreme..fronts hanging way forward, ewe necks...bands too tight <VBG>

Many UKC dogs look to heavy, not "poodley". 

I nice moderate dog will be able to finish in both. ( I consider a Grand CH in UKC as finished)

I am not aware of any movement to get Partis or MC accepted for AKC Championship. 

There is a DNA test to see of your dog carries for Parti

Parti and Phantom are two different genes, a dog can carry for both. 

Grooming...hmmmm The coat and haircut should not be what is judged. in UKC the wording is such that the dog "may" be in the traditional cuts, but it does not say they "Must". also there is no penalty for improper clips. 

But Gosh..I love a sprayed up coat...sigh

Time for bed...


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## Jacknic

I am always amazed at all the animosity, in Poodledum. Solids v. partis, AKC v. UKC. Any chance to get out and do something with your dog is a worth while event. Add in the element of competition and you can only improve, the dogs, grooming and handling skills. I show in both venues for different reasons and enjoy both. I would dare say I would love to see an AKC show where only the OWNERS can groom their dogs. Just think it is a shame to compare owner handlers with professional handles, pretty much what you are doing comparing UKC with AKC. IMO anyone out there showing their dog UKC or AKC should be appauled for their effort, both take a commitment in time, money and a love for their dog.


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## OverTheTopFarm

Jacknic said:


> I am always amazed at all the animosity, in Poodledum. Solids v. partis, AKC v. UKC. Any chance to get out and do something with your dog is a worth while event. Add in the element of competition and you can only improve, the dogs, grooming and handling skills. I show in both venues for different reasons and enjoy both. I would dare say I would love to see an AKC show where only the OWNERS can groom their dogs. Just think it is a shame to compare owner handlers with professional handles, pretty much what you are doing comparing UKC with AKC. IMO anyone out there showing their dog UKC or AKC should be appauled for their effort, both take a commitment in time, money and a love for their dog.


You said exactly what I wanted to say ...


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## cavon

PaddleAddict said:


> Also, at a UKC show, I saw a poodle being shown in the multi-colored class that appeared to be a solid colored poodle with a large mismark on the chest. It seems to me that this is neither a good example of a solid or a parti, yet the breed standard allows this type of markings:
> 
> Abstract: Less than fifty percent white, with the remaining percent any other acceptable solid color.
> 
> It seems within the multi-colored standard that anything goes? Does anyone think this will change over time?


For a second I thought you might have been at the UKC show I took my Finnegan to this past weekend...

Not only is he a big red multi colored abstract with a white mis-mark on his chest - he also has some white underneath, but he is also altered. He is UKC registered and as the UKC is the only club that offers an altered class, I took him to get him exposed to the environment so that when I trial him for rally the whole experience of having a lot of dogs around won't be new to him, but I think he did really well. 

Not only that, as soon as I took him out of his crate, a breeder from a very well known kennel beelined right over to me to find out where I got him from. 

I am extremely proud of him.

I wasn't going to post anything about our adventure because it is very obvious that there is a sort of elitism regarding the kennel clubs.

I hope that his grooming or size does not offend any of the purists here....


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## OverTheTopFarm

cavon said:


> Not only is he a big red multi colored abstract with a white mis-mark on his chest - he also has some white underneath, but he is also altered. He is UKC registered and as the UKC is the only club that offers an altered class, I took him to get him exposed to the environment so that when I trial him for rally the whole experience of having a lot of dogs around won't be new to him, but I think he did really well.
> 
> Not only that, as soon as I took him out of his crate, a breeder from a very well known kennel beelined right over to me to find out where I got him from.
> 
> I am extremely proud of him.
> 
> I wasn't going to post anything about our adventure because it is very obvious that there is a sort of elitism regarding the kennel clubs.
> 
> I hope that his grooming or size does not offend any of the purists here....


You have a very beautiful dog and you should be proud. Looks like he did well! I HATE the term "mismark" it's not a mismark for goodness sake, it's his coloring. What size is he (height and weight)? It looks like you had a wonderful time at the show and that is what it is all about. There is a UKC show down the road from me this weekend, and I'm thinking about driving down to see what it's like as far as poodles.


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## cavon

Thank you very much OverTheTop! I was told on the weekend that we should no longer say "mis-mark" we should say he is multi colored, but I bet that is just a UKC thing!! ;-)

Finnegan is about 25-26 inches tall and he weighs 60lbs.

I honestly had a wonderful time at the show, all of the people therre were extremely nice. Quite by accident I ended up setting up in what turned out to be a "Poodle" corner of the hall. toys, minis, standards, solids, multi's you name it! It was great!


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## PaddleAddict

cavon said:


> For a second I thought you might have been at the UKC show I took my Finnegan to this past weekend...
> 
> Not only is he a big red multi colored abstract with a white mis-mark on his chest - he also has some white underneath, but he is also altered. He is UKC registered and as the UKC is the only club that offers an altered class, I took him to get him exposed to the environment so that when I trial him for rally the whole experience of having a lot of dogs around won't be new to him, but I think he did really well.
> 
> Not only that, as soon as I took him out of his crate, a breeder from a very well known kennel beelined right over to me to find out where I got him from.
> 
> I am extremely proud of him.
> 
> I wasn't going to post anything about our adventure because it is very obvious that there is a sort of elitism regarding the kennel clubs.
> 
> I hope that his grooming or size does not offend any of the purists here....


I'm sorry if you took my post in a negative manner, I did not mean it that way at all. I like UKC and I like all poodles, regardless of color. I am not a "purist."  I am just curious since showing the muticolored poodles is somewhat new at least here in the US.


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## OverTheTopFarm

PaddleAddict said:


> This is a very interesting thread.
> 
> A question about the phantom and brindle poodles. It seems these are becoming more popular--is there any doubt that they are in fact purebred poodles? Before they became "hot" were these colors regularly appearing in parti litters. Not trying to bash any colors here, I think all poodles are beautiful. Just wondering...


Actually ... these colors regular appear in "solid" litters as well as litters where multi-colored poodles are expected. In the past, however, these dogs were just euthanized; in the present, they may still be euthanized, but they are normally registered as solids and if they are otherwise good quality, they hair is just dyed to match OR they are sold as unregistered purebreds so no one can track the dog back to the parents/breeder.

It's very sad to me.


----------



## PaddleAddict

OverTheTopFarm said:


> Actually ... these colors regular appear in "solid" litters as well as litters where multi-colored poodles are expected. In the past, however, these dogs were just euthanized; in the present, they may still be euthanized, but they are normally registered as solids and if they are otherwise good quality, they hair is just dyed to match OR they are sold as unregistered purebreds so no one can track the dog back to the parents/breeder.
> 
> It's very sad to me.


This is exactly what I was wondering, thank you for clarifying. So it's just that these puppies did exist, but were culled until more recently? How sad to cull a pup simply because of color.


----------



## Apres Argent

My Girl Karma was from generations of solid health tested parents. She was a Parti born in a litter to a breeder who did not see a reason to cull a beautiful pup with one white leg and a white tail tip. Unfortunatly all the health testing and AKC CH in her pedigree did not make her healthy. On July 23rd Karma died of DCM Dialated Cardiac Myopathy. There were not any warning signs, she ran like the wind, never was stressed after exercise, great weight and beautiful coat. 

A picture, 
Karma just sassy | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Dam and Sire pedigree below

Pedigree: AM CH Safari's Solaris

Pedigree: Jam'n Jj's Gotcha Looking


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

I know I am going to get crucified for saying what I am about to say, and I do not care anymore. I have a boy out of champion bloodlines who I know is gorgeous enough to champion in the CKC ring, but it may turn out he is a bit small because I imported him from Iceland, and he was bred to European standards, where the height maximum is 24" His first weekend out (and only time out to date) he was beat by a monster of a male puppy in the 6 to 9 month class who walked into the ring that first day with seven points. This boy had to be 27" to 28" at the shoulder. It has been indicated on this forum how much easier it is to get a Canadian championship, so even if he ends up finishing there are going to be naysayers on here who will say it wasn't much of an achievement because it is so easy to get. WHATEVER!!! And we have purists on here who put down UKC. BUT, we have people on here who insist a dog should not be bred unless it is a champion from champion lines. So, I suppose the only way everyone will be happy is if we all come from the USA and champion our dogs in the AKC ring. I am contemplating clipping this boy down simply because the coat maintenance on a nine month old Standard is ridiculous!!! If I clip him down, I may still try to get him championed in the UKC ring. In my opinion it is important to get a grand CH. in UKC because this is where you have to have competition wins against dogs of the same breed. But you know what? It is impossible to please everyone on here. So, if you are having a good time, if the dog is having fun, if you find it easier to do UKC because you do not have to look after a foot of neck hair, a foot of topknot and eight inches of leg hair,,,have a blast. Enjoy yourself. Be proud of your dog's accomplishments and do not let anyone make you feel like you are not doing something awesome. You are doing something with your dog which cannot be anything but wonderful.

Yaddaluvpoodles made an awesome post in another thread and voiced exactly what I feel. If this glorious boy never gets championed because I choose not to maintain his coat or because I can no longer afford a $50 fee to scissor him, a $30 fee to enter him and a $75 fee for a handler to show him every day he is shown...oh well. He is still the dog of my dreams, he is still gorgeous, he is still going to bring things to the table in my breeding program that I want to see, and a CH. at the beginning of his name does not change him one iota. If I decide to put him in UKC, where his coat can be shorter and I can show him myself, saving the handler fees and grooming fees, so be it. If I decide to put him in Obedience or Rally or he becomes a therapy dog...so be it. None of this changes who this dog is or what he will bring to the table. But it cannot be anything but a good thing to be doing things with your dog and having it out there being an ambassador for this wonderful breed. Enjoy whatever way you decide to go!


----------



## flyingduster

Let me clafiry; UKC is great. AKC is great. Neither is bad, or worse than the other. Nor is CKC (well, canadian, not continental! haha!) Each kennel club is great. The overall standards can vary from one show to another, regardless of the club that's holding the show. In the end, get your dog out and show it if you want to breed. I want to see that a number of judges agree a dog is of breeding quality before it's bred. A title is great, it can be easier or harder for different genders and clubs and states, it doesn't make it a lesser title or a lesser dog; it is all subjective in the end as to what each judge thinks and just cos you're dumped one day doesn't mean you can't win the show the next; it's the way the show world works regardless of the overseeing club.

No one has bashed UKC. Yes the overall standard of the dogs can be less than the AKC dogs (I'm talking every single breed here, not just poodles! I don't care about the grooming, I'm talking about the dogs themselves) but to get a GRCH at UKC is still a feat well done. No one has suggested it's not.

Don't let peoples opinions stop you from going out and showing. If you have a parti then you have no option other than UKC, so go ahead and make the most of it! If you have a solid, then by all means you have a choice of clubs; take your pick and enjoy it.


----------



## jak

There is a difference between showing for 'fun' and showing for 'breeding'...

When I see a breeder who constantly makes excuses about not being able to show their dogs because of 'this' or 'that' ... or if a breeder tries to change their breeding program to satisfy people.. I have to really wonder :wacko:

What makes this breeder think that they know what a good poodle is .. how is this not kennel blind ?

Showing is about getting multiple opinions from judges that your dog is a good if not reasonable example of the breed. Showing also shows dedication from a breeder, that they are trying to 'improve' the breed, and not just breed this to that, because they know better....

How is this type of breeder not just a BYB ? 
If all they do is 'say' they're going to do 'this' or 'that ... but then breed multiple litters without actually proving anything.
If they pop out 7 or 8 puppies at $1500 a piece, that is $10 500 a litter...
and when they do this annually...

that is $31 500 ...

Where would all this money be going ? You'd think with that kind of money, you could finish *three* fairly good examples of a breed.
Not just sit there and say you are going to do 'this' or 'that'...


Also. When the typical excuse is that is is soo political, and only the faces win.
This is so untrue.

Of course there will be times when faces win, but that is not all the time. There are such things as Honest Judges lol


----------



## jak

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I know I am going to get crucified for saying what I am about to say, and I do not care anymore. I have a boy out of champion bloodlines who I know is gorgeous enough to champion in the CKC ring, but it may turn out he is a bit small because I imported him from Iceland, and he was bred to European standards, where the height maximum is 24" His first weekend out (and only time out to date) he was beat by a monster of a male puppy in the 6 to 9 month class who walked into the ring that first day with seven points. This boy had to be 27" to 28" at the shoulder. It has been indicated on this forum how much easier it is to get a Canadian championship, so even if he ends up finishing there are going to be naysayers on here who will say it wasn't much of an achievement because it is so easy to get. WHATEVER!!! And we have purists on here who put down UKC. BUT, we have people on here who insist a dog should not be bred unless it is a champion from champion lines. So, I suppose the only way everyone will be happy is if we all come from the USA and champion our dogs in the AKC ring. I am contemplating clipping this boy down simply because the coat maintenance on a nine month old Standard is ridiculous!!! If I clip him down, I may still try to get him championed in the UKC ring. In my opinion it is important to get a grand CH. in UKC because this is where you have to have competition wins against dogs of the same breed. But you know what? It is impossible to please everyone on here. So, if you are having a good time, if the dog is having fun, if you find it easier to do UKC because you do not have to look after a foot of neck hair, a foot of topknot and eight inches of leg hair,,,have a blast. Enjoy yourself. Be proud of your dog's accomplishments and do not let anyone make you feel like you are not doing something awesome. You are doing something with your dog which cannot be anything but wonderful.
> 
> Yaddaluvpoodles made an awesome post in another thread and voiced exactly what I feel. If this glorious boy never gets championed because I choose not to maintain his coat or because I can no longer afford a $50 fee to scissor him, a $30 fee to enter him and a $75 fee for a handler to show him every day he is shown...oh well. He is still the dog of my dreams, he is still gorgeous, he is still going to bring things to the table in my breeding program that I want to see, and a CH. at the beginning of his name does not change him one iota. If I decide to put him in UKC, where his coat can be shorter and I can show him myself, saving the handler fees and grooming fees, so be it. If I decide to put him in Obedience or Rally or he becomes a therapy dog...so be it. None of this changes who this dog is or what he will bring to the table. But it cannot be anything but a good thing to be doing things with your dog and having it out there being an ambassador for this wonderful breed. Enjoy whatever way you decide to go!


I think oversized Standards are a big problem now.

A dog should be no more than 26" (pushing it)
and a bitch should be no more than 25" (pushing it)

Poodles are a medium sized breed, they are not giants like Afghans, Great Danes etc.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Breeders can get multiple opinions of a particular dog without showing it by having various breeders and handlers go over the dog and its pedigree and give them an opinion. These people are usually very blatant and forward about what they think of someone's dog when asked for their opinion. If you ask ten people and eight think the dog is amazing and two don't, well, I guess you have the popular vote right there.

I cannot believe anyone can be naive enough to believe the deck is not stacked in favour of the professional handlers. You see posts on here all the time about people using professional handlers or a win will be difficult, or owners who have been one pointing their dogs now looking toward an handler because now they need the big wins. Clearly they know they are not going to get the big wins against the handlers and that now it is time to pull out the big guns. Such a shame, because in my opinion, a handler will do a fine job with someone's dog, but something that just sends shivers up and down my spine is when an owner who has an incredible relationship with their dog takes that dog into the ring and those two work so beautifully together, it is as if the two are actually one. Yep, there are honest judges, but they are not necessarily the norm. And I do not think it is so much a case of them not being honest as it is a perception they have.

This is kind of like a professional golfer using a particular line of clubs or balls when playing golf casually. Everyone believes these clubs or balls must be fantastic because this guy uses them all the time, endorses them and wins. There are handlers who could take an inferior dog into the ring and win because judges know the handlers reputation and just presume they would never enter the ring with a hot mess. So, right away the deck is stacked in favour of the handler. Joe Blow owner walks into the ring and the judges do not know this person from Adam so have no pre-conceived notions about whether this particular dog is correct or not, but you can be darned sure THIS dog will be scrutinized and checked over to the nth degree. Just my opinion.


----------



## Feralpudel

jak said:


> I think oversized Standards are a big problem now.
> 
> A dog should be no more than 26" (pushing it)
> and a bitch should be no more than 25" (pushing it)
> 
> Poodles are a medium sized breed, they are not giants like Afghans, Great Danes etc.


The sizes you've named are pretty much the upper limit for the AKC breed ring. Any taller than that, and the dog will have trouble finishing.


----------



## Jacknic

Feralpudel said:


> The sizes you've named are pretty much the upper limit for the AKC breed ring. Any taller than that, and the dog will have trouble finishing.


This is not true in my part of the country, and the funny thing is, it is judges that push this, so do they KNOW what is right for our breed--(speaking standards here).
I think we all know dogs that we would not take home if given to us, but they are CHampions. And we all know of BEAUTIFUL dogs that are CHampions but we would not breed to them because they throw terrible health issues.
IMO a responsible breeder will PROVE why their dogs should be bred, first, I would hope with health testing.
Second, with some kind of creditals, again, IMO, do not think that structure is the only reasonable cause to breed a dog, but at least prove your point. If you dog is super smart, have an obedience or agility tiltle on him, these things are NOT political, it is you and your dog out there. If your dog is sweet and loving have him aproved as a therapy dog and then USE him as a therapy dog. This thread started as AKC v UKC, I believe all the excuses people use for not showing their dog is taken away by UKC. I beleive conformation at UKC helps the breed in so many ways because now the average Joe breeder cannot sit home and hide their dog in the closet claiming they cannot beat the handlers. Yes, I agree, the structure is not always there, and sometimes the grooming is down right bad but at least you
are out there and trying to prove your dog. And if you are having your dog shown AKC, by a professinal handler, I think it is not fair for you to pipe up and share how bad you think UKC is, at this point most of what you are proving is that you can pay a handler's bill--yes, I'm sure you have a fine dog, but do not criticize those that get out and do it themselves. AGAIN the point is to GET OUT THERE!!


----------



## Feralpudel

There are a lot of absolutes being stated here, so I'll wade in with some shades of gray, LOL:

I think that showing a dog in any venue *can* be fun for the dog and can be great socialization. Cavon, good on you for doing just that. 

I think there are degrees of accomplishment in each venue. I pay attention to which judges put the dog up, puppy points and majors, group placements, etc. For example, I think it is an accomplishment that one of Jacknic's dogs won the breed at Premier. 

There may be some judging up the lead in AKC, but the pro handlers also tend to be very good at grooming and handling the dog. To beat them as an owner handler, you also have to groom and handle your dog well. I have the utmost respect for owner handlers in AKC. 

There are degrees of pro handlers. I am sandwiched between Kaz and Chris/Rachel. I used a pro handler that wasn't a big name and he got the job done because he groomed well and handled well. The spoo ring is full of pro handlers, and a judge can't please all of them. <g> There are two amateur breeder handlers around here who are very good and do their share of winning. One is transitioning to handling other people's dogs and I would happily use her. 

I don't think anybody is claiming that a CH of any sort is the end all and be all. For me, it is part of a total package that includes temperament (ideally working temperament as proven with performance titles) and attention to health (not just health testing). 

Now, back to my pigeonhole...


----------



## roxy25

jak said:


> There is a difference between showing for 'fun' and showing for 'breeding'...
> 
> When I see a breeder who constantly makes excuses about not being able to show their dogs because of 'this' or 'that' ... or if a breeder tries to change their breeding program to satisfy people.. I have to really wonder :wacko:
> 
> What makes this breeder think that they know what a good poodle is .. how is this not kennel blind ?
> 
> Showing is about getting multiple opinions from judges that your dog is a good if not reasonable example of the breed. Showing also shows dedication from a breeder, that they are trying to 'improve' the breed, and not just breed this to that, because they know better....
> 
> How is this type of breeder not just a BYB ?
> If all they do is 'say' they're going to do 'this' or 'that ... but then breed multiple litters without actually proving anything.
> If they pop out 7 or 8 puppies at $1500 a piece, that is $10 500 a litter...
> and when they do this annually...
> 
> that is $31 500 ...
> 
> Where would all this money be going ? You'd think with that kind of money, you could finish *three* fairly good examples of a breed.
> Not just sit there and say you are going to do 'this' or 'that'...
> 
> 
> Also. When the typical excuse is that is is soo political, and only the faces win.
> This is so untrue.
> 
> Of course there will be times when faces win, but that is not all the time. There are such things as Honest Judges lol


I agree excuses get you know where ( if you dogs are not to standard or good enough to compete just straight out say it and not make up excuses) , I prefer to see a UKC solid poodle have GR ch titles at least this shows the dog beat its own breed .....( well some times its fair lol) 

It all comes down to why the breeder is showing UKC also. I have seen some breeders who show UKC bring nearly their whole kennel to the show to say my dogs had competition in the ring therefore he is worthy of his wins and should be bred .... ( this is not rivalry because you are not competing against rivals but your self ....) 

COMPETITION

1: the act or process of competing : rivalry: 
2: a contest between rivals; also : one's competitors <faced tough competition

When you don't have that in red above what exactly are you doing at these shows ? 


As for owner handlers not winning because of faces .... Tabatha waters have been owner handling her Girls and has been gaining points by her self. Jean urban has just recently beat A well known handler ! If you put in the work and time it can be done. 

A good dog will win no matter what size , or color .... I have seen a 27-28 inch dog win and finish ! I have seen dogs Like enzo size 22-23 inches finish.


----------



## roxy25

Feralpudel said:


> .
> 
> I don't think anybody is claiming that a CH of any sort is the end all and be all. For me, it is part of a total package that includes temperament (ideally working temperament as proven with performance titles) and attention to health (not just health testing).


winning breed at the Premier is good because that is one of UKC biggest show so big congrats to Jacknic's

I agree I may seem like all I care about is CH in AKC I honestly don't. If you prove your dog in other venues then that is just as great ! I just hate how some say AKC or CKC is unfair and that UKC is fun and no politics and the wins are just the same as AKC wins IMO its not the same its like comparing apples to oranges both are fruit and bare seeds thats about it LOL.


----------



## Ixion

I have shown shown at a UKC show, and I agree, I loved the relaxed atmosphere, although at the show I went to I was very frustrated with the host club, they had such tiny rings meant for little dogs and not enough room for a big moving afghan to even show it's paces. I saw some great quality in the breeds here that can't show in AKC, (Mexican Hairless, Jack Russel's, Pit Bull's, etc) and in those breeds I did notice some politics going on that could definitly rival the AKC ring in those breeds. In poodles, my opinion was slit on quality, I saw a gorgeous white standard puppy who did very well, and also a really nice standard parti. But in the toys, IMO the judge should have not even given awards out because the dogs conformation was awful in all of them. I personally wont be going out to more UKC shows, but that is only because in my breed, I'm the only one showing and so no chance of a UKC GCH is even possible, plus there are very few near me. 

Also some mentioned that poodles should be giants like afghans, afghans shouldn't be giants either, per the standard dogs should be 27 plus or minus an inch and bitches should be 25 plus or minus an inch, most afghans in the ring are oversized and the ones that are stardard sized have a hard time winning. 

I have one bitch I may breed down the road who will probably never finish her AKC CH because of politics, I know her faults and she has quite a few people that like her but there is so much prejudice against her color, she will have Agility, Rally and Lure Coursing titles in the near future too though.


----------



## cavon

Ixion said:


> I personally wont be going out to more UKC shows, but that is only because in my breed, I'm the only one showing and so no chance of a UKC GCH is even possible, plus there are very few near me.


Ixion, the UKC does not have a lot of shows here in Ontario either, but last weekend there were 3 beautiful Afgans ~ not that I know anything about the breed, they are all beautiful to me! One took Best in Show! Too bad Arizona is so far away - oh yes, and that it is cold here at this time of year. LOL!


----------



## Ixion

Caven, there are some nice afghans that have been campaigned in UKC and a lot of them have AKC titles too, but the closest shows to me that would have competition is in CA or TX and that's a looong drive, LOL! I show mostly AKC, but that is where most of the afghans are shown at.


----------



## jak

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Breeders can get multiple opinions of a particular dog without showing it by having various breeders and handlers go over the dog and its pedigree and give them an opinion. These people are usually very blatant and forward about what they think of someone's dog when asked for their opinion. If you ask ten people and eight think the dog is amazing and two don't, well, I guess you have the popular vote right there.
> 
> I cannot believe anyone can be naive enough to believe the deck is not stacked in favour of the professional handlers. You see posts on here all the time about people using professional handlers or a win will be difficult, or owners who have been one pointing their dogs now looking toward an handler because now they need the big wins. Clearly they know they are not going to get the big wins against the handlers and that now it is time to pull out the big guns. Such a shame, because in my opinion, a handler will do a fine job with someone's dog, but something that just sends shivers up and down my spine is when an owner who has an incredible relationship with their dog takes that dog into the ring and those two work so beautifully together, it is as if the two are actually one. Yep, there are honest judges, but they are not necessarily the norm. And I do not think it is so much a case of them not being honest as it is a perception they have.
> 
> This is kind of like a professional golfer using a particular line of clubs or balls when playing golf casually. Everyone believes these clubs or balls must be fantastic because this guy uses them all the time, endorses them and wins. There are handlers who could take an inferior dog into the ring and win because judges know the handlers reputation and just presume they would never enter the ring with a hot mess. So, right away the deck is stacked in favour of the handler. Joe Blow owner walks into the ring and the judges do not know this person from Adam so have no pre-conceived notions about whether this particular dog is correct or not, but you can be darned sure THIS dog will be scrutinized and checked over to the nth degree. Just my opinion.



Quite often handlers will actually have nice dogs, and that plays a big part at why they win often too....

Well, what's the point of showing then, if it is so unfair, and the odds are stacked against you ...
why don't you just give up, because it's so unfair ?

If we did that with everything else in life, we'd just be dropkicks with chips on our shoulder, blaming everyone else for our inability to actually do something...


----------



## jak

Ixion said:


> Also some mentioned that poodles should be giants like afghans, afghans shouldn't be giants either, per the standard dogs should be 27 plus or minus an inch and bitches should be 25 plus or minus an inch, most afghans in the ring are oversized and the ones that are stardard sized have a hard time winning.


The only reason I said poodles shouldn't be as giant as afghans, is because our standard says afghans are 27"-29" for dogs, and 2-3" smaller for a bitch.
So IMO that is a lot bigger than what a standard should be.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

jak said:


> Quite often handlers will actually have nice dogs, and that plays a big part at why they win often too....
> 
> Well, what's the point of showing then, if it is so unfair, and the odds are stacked against you ...
> why don't you just give up, because it's so unfair ?
> 
> If we did that with everything else in life, we'd just be dropkicks with chips on our shoulder, blaming everyone else for our inability to actually do something...


If you are speaking to me young man...

I have no intention of handling my boy in CKC venues. I thought that was made clear months ago when I discussed Chrystal Murray handling him. First of all, I cannot with agoraphobia, and secondly, I am not about to waste my money when I KNOW the politics of the ring here and KNOW the odds of an owner handled dog winning are slim at best. I am not giving up on this glorious boy. If it is decided he will not compete, it will be his handler who makes that choice, and it would be based solely on his size. If she feels he is tall enough to give it a shot, he will continue to be in the ring, likely come spring. If he is not tall enough, then we will pursue titles in other areas. And if I find his coat too much of a burden, then it will my turn to decide whether or not it is worth it and if we fell it isn't, then again, there are other avenues and titles to think about.

It would be nice if this was a perfect world and only dogs who actually possess the traits outlined in the breed standard were winning, but that is not the case. Obviously, when you see a dog a good four inches taller than his two competitors in the 6 to 9 month class winning and he is at least 27 inches tall at six to nine months of age. Or you see photos in magazines of so many Poodles who are so heavily angulated that they look like German Shepherds with their "WIN" plaque in front of them.


----------



## Feralpudel

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> If she feels he is tall enough to give it a shot, he will continue to be in the ring, likely come spring.


Cherie, may I make a suggestion? If I had a dog/bitch on the small side, I would show them as much as possible in the puppy classes. If the tall boy had 7 points going into that weekend, chances are he is out of your way now.  A friend with a small GSP noted that his size worked against him more once he was shown as an adult, because it was clear that he wasn't getting any bigger.


----------



## cavon

Jak, you are certainly an ambassador for the "friendly" nature of this forum and poodle people in general.

I would like to speak to you in 20 years when life has had a chance to throw you some curves to see if you see everything in such black and white terms.


----------



## jak

cavon said:


> Jak, you are certainly an ambassador for the "friendly" nature of this forum and poodle people in general.
> 
> I would like to speak to you in 20 years when life has had a chance to throw you some curves to see if you see everything in such black and white terms.


I suggest you use the 'search' function to find other threads that particular users have posted in... particularly ones involving your breeder.

And also, when you have received the amount of nasty pm's from certain people, you would not be saying what you are saying.


----------



## Chelicerae

cavon said:


> Jak, you are certainly an ambassador for the "friendly" nature of this forum and poodle people in general.


Not... :rolffleyes:


----------



## Chelicerae

jak said:


> And also, when you have received the amount of nasty pm's from certain people, you would not be saying what you are saying.


Oh, like the one you sent to my mom calling her a delusional idiot?  You should look to your own shortfalls before attempting to point fingers at others.


----------



## jak

Chelicerae said:


> Oh, like the one you sent to my mom calling her a delusional idiot?  You should look to your own shortfalls before attempting to point fingers at others.


Let me clear the air here.

The reason I said that, was because your Mother was plaguing me with pm's implying I was an idiot, and an horrible person. I was getting sick and tired of receiving crazy pm's from the best friend of the other woman who bashed me on the forum, and was sending me psychotic pm's too

I had words spoken to me from your mother too, so what is your point ?


----------



## jak

oh, and hang on.. I thought we weren't meant to post the content of PM's..
coming from the daughter of the moderator

BIAS much


----------



## Birdie

You all sure know how to take a nice discussion and turn it into a huge mess. :\

PLEASE take it up in PM's guys! I'm honestly reading this thread for the actual topic, not your personal vendettas and snotty remarks.


----------



## Olie

Birdie said:


> You all sure know how to take a nice discussion and turn it into a huge mess. :\
> 
> PLEASE take it up in PM's guys! I'm honestly reading this thread for the actual topic, not your personal vendettas and snotty remarks.


I agree! But we keep coming back - its like watching your favorite reality show - you know its WRONG but you keep watching LMAO! 

This show is surely a over played RERUN!!!!! We know how one side feels about the other.........move on!!!! 

Where's the sinks??? :act-up:


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

olie said:


> i agree! But we keep coming back - its like watching your favorite reality show - you know its wrong but you keep watching lmao!
> 
> This show is surely a over played rerun!!!!! We know how one side feels about the other.........move on!!!!
> 
> Where's the sinks??? :act-up:


lol!!!!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Feralpudel said:


> Cherie, may I make a suggestion? If I had a dog/bitch on the small side, I would show them as much as possible in the puppy classes. If the tall boy had 7 points going into that weekend, chances are he is out of your way now.  A friend with a small GSP noted that his size worked against him more once he was shown as an adult, because it was clear that he wasn't getting any bigger.


Thank you Feralpudel. This is an awesome suggestion, but Quincy will be a year old in February and the shows are winding down now in our area. I think we will likely put him into his CC so there is somewhat less maintenance and see what happens in the Spring. Cavon...do you have a list of UKC shows in Ontario that you could share with me for the 2011 season? I know they are few and far between but I would greatly appreciate it. If we do decide FP that he is not going to be able to compete because of his size, I am not averse to trying for his Grand in UKC. He would be an awesome therapy dog as well because he has such a sound and solid disposition. He has a nice future ahead of him whether he is too short or not.


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## Cynthadia

Apres Argent said:


> My Girl Karma was from generations of solid health tested parents. She was a Parti born in a litter to a breeder who did not see a reason to cull a beautiful pup with one white leg and a white tail tip. Unfortunatly all the health testing and AKC CH in her pedigree did not make her healthy. On July 23rd Karma died of DCM Dialated Cardiac Myopathy. There were not any warning signs, she ran like the wind, never was stressed after exercise, great weight and beautiful coat.
> 
> I'm so sorry to hear about Karma. I can tell you from firsthand experience that I tested my breeding stock and still got hit with bloat, SA, etc. I found little solace in my test results when puppy buyers called me, broken hearted, with bad news. It really hits home when you're 3, 4, or 5 generations down and you realize your breeding program (for lack of a better phrase) was a one-way rat hole. Still, I advocate testing, but now as only a part of the whole picture. For example, a family history of longevity (absent life-saving medical intervention) resonates more to me than a CHIC number. Reliable health information (good or bad) on siblings generations back is invaluable information to have.
> 
> And while I'm teetering on my soapbox, I'm not so wowed by a championship title that I would make a breeding decision based on a judge's (or multiple judges') opinion of a dog. I enjoy the competition of the breed ring and I admire those who have figured out what it takes to win. What I don't (didn't) enjoy was having to constantly fight the urge to ignore my dogs' faults based on a win (perhaps whim) of a judge on any particular day.
> 
> Cynthia


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## Birdie

Olie said:


> I agree! But we keep coming back - its like watching your favorite reality show - you know its WRONG but you keep watching LMAO!
> 
> This show is surely a over played RERUN!!!!! We know how one side feels about the other.........move on!!!!
> 
> Where's the sinks??? :act-up:


LMAO! So true, Olie.


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## Feralpudel

Cynthadia said:


> Still, I advocate testing, but now as only a part of the whole picture. For example, a family history of longevity (absent life-saving medical intervention) resonates more to me than a CHIC number. Reliable health information (good or bad) on siblings generations back is invaluable information to have.
> 
> And while I'm teetering on my soapbox, I'm not so wowed by a championship title that I would make a breeding decision based on a judge's (or multiple judges') opinion of a dog.
> Cynthia


No argument here with either of those points, Cynthia. I wish more people recorded dates of death for dogs in Poodle Pedigree and PHR.


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## Cynthadia

Feralpudel said:


> No argument here with either of those points, Cynthia. I wish more people recorded dates of death for dogs in Poodle Pedigree and PHR.


I don't know how you do that if you don't own the dog. And I'm not sure how to evaluate longevity without knowing if the dog had life-saving medical intervention to prolong its life.

Ch. Jubilant Pleasure Palace (died at age 14...but had GDV surgery age 7, cataracts, obligate SA carrier)
Ch. Thalia's Cynamar Siraj Rizing, CD (died at age 14 or 15...but had GDV surgery at age 2.5)
Ch. Jubilant Rumor's and All that Jazz (15 years old currently, but otherwise unknown)
Ch. Jubilant Generally 'Lectric (died at age 13 or 14, but otherwise unknown)
Ch. Jubilant Vigilante Justice (died at age 14, but otherwise unknown)
Ch. Jubilant Alegria de Noche Vida (died at age 14, no health problems reported)
Ch. Jubilant General Patton (died at age 12.5, hemangioma at age 7 and vet did gastropexy)
Ch. Jubilant Prudently 'Lectric (died at age 12 or 13, otherwise unknown)
Jubilant (can't remember name) (died at age 13, no problems reported)
Ch. Jubilant Gaylarisque (died at age 5 - GDV)
Ch. Jubilant Sorcerer's A. Prentis (died at age 10 or 11 - now I don't remember for certain - SA obligate carrier, probable IBD)
Jubilant Zephyr de Siraj (unknown)
Teekas Jubilant Jilian Siraj (died age 13 or 14, bloated age 3 or 4, gastropexy)

Other than Gaylarisque, one might be led to believe that there is longevity in the line. However, there were several dogs that bloated and died young and there were several dogs whose contact with the the owner was lost over the years. 

Still scratching my head on this issue.

Cynthia


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## Oodlejpoodle's mom

Since Jak has been banned and his private PM was posted in the open forum....can we now please see all the PM's he received from the people in question???? If is all right to post ones he sent it is surely all right to post ones he received. I think we need to be positive none of the forum rules were broken.

Thanks,

Kathy


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## roxy25

Oodlejpoodle's mom said:


> Since Jak has been banned and his private PM was posted in the open forum....can we now please see all the PM's he received from the people in question???? If is all right to post ones he sent it is surely all right to post ones he received. I think we need to be positive none of the forum rules were broken.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kathy


I thought it was not allowed to post pms but people do it anyways and get away with it ......

I will see if I can get the pms later


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## plumcrazy

It has been brought to my attention that quoting private messages on the public forum is not allowed. No private messages have been quoted in this thread to this point. Forwarding private messages to my knowledge, however, is not disallowed. If you want to share private messages, you'll have to do it via forwarding and not quoting on the forum. Thank you.

Barb


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## flyingduster

plumcrazy said:


> No private messages have been quoted in this thread to this point.
> Barb


bull ****!



Chelicerae said:


> Oh, like the one you sent to my mom calling her a delusional idiot?


if that's not a quote of a PM then I don't know what is. This is warrant of a formal warning to Chelicerae seeing Jak got a total ban and he broke no blatent rules like this is!! Not having a formal warning is delusional and incredibly bias. Can I get my mum to be a moderator on here too so I don't get a slap on my wrist too??


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## Keithsomething

I'm with Birdie...back to topic XDD

I have yet to attend a UKC show but the breeders I've been talking to here in my area have STRONGLY discouraged me to go to them even as a spectator...they don't really give decent reasons why I shouldn't other than their own ideas on grooming and other things

I find from the breeders that I have spoken to personally they do have a personal bias against the UKC, I'm not entirely sure what it is...I wouldn't want to come off rude by asking WHY they hate the UKC lol

now, I have attended a few AKC shows, and I'll be going to a ton more soon
I have to say I love the atmosphere of the shows!
the grooming tables, those GIGANTIC bottles of hairspray, the handlers doing exercise shakes before going in the ring
I love it, LOVE LOVE LOVE IT

if only I were 2 years younger I'd be right in that junior handler ring!! but alas I'll have to wait for a show prospect before I step into it XD


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## Winnow

Here in Iceland we have 3 clubs.

The Icelandic kennel club is the only one who is working with the FCI and if I would show up to the other clubs shows I am sure I would be hanged. 

I think its fun to try both events.

I love that you don't have too keep them in the big heavy coat.
Charly is done now with all his titles but we have two judges coming next year who specialized in Poodles so I am keeping him in coat.


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## KalaMama

*Warning*

[WARNING:
Chelicerae you clearly broke at least one of the forum rules. See rule below.

*Each member will treat others members with respect, be tactful, and be courteous, at all times. There is always a proper way to respond to someone. We encourage good discussions, because this is the way we learn and no one will do the same thing as other do. We want members to respond with honest straight-forward opinions, but members needs to refrain from injecting their snarky, degrading personal feelings that adds no value to a post, but causes disruption. If you cannot do this, it will be best that you do not respond to the post at all. *


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## CharismaticMillie

Holy :cow: I sure missed a lot here.


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## Birdie

Just wondering, how do you find UKC shows in your area? I can only ever find events through Infodog, and even still there are many events that I know that I am missing. How do you guys even find these shows to attend? I've only ever been to a few shows; it it just a lack of shows in middle TN or is it the fact that I don't know where to look?

EDIT: whoops! Accidentally wrote CKC instead of UKC, my bad!


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## wishpoo

KalaMama- glad to see somebody new "moderating", since this is becoming a farce, to say the list :bolt:

I tried to stay away from the whole discussion from the beginning of the thread since I did not want to "beat the dead horse" about showing in different venues , but only one member was banned under what "accusation" again ???????????? Just ridiculous :confused3::noidea: PM *WAS "quoted" AGAIN * - and that is OK - since when :afraid: ????? 

Moderating is at this point absolutely bias IMO and I hope to see a change in the way it is done. 

AND PLEASE do not make this again about "circles" since this matter of moderation and about what can be posted and how and all of those restrictions were always irking me to no end and I always expressed them before.

Either all members have the same rights and adhere to same rules of conduct - or all of this "moderation" is just one big pretense.


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## Keithsomething

hmm I thought we were getting back on topic...>.>

and Birdie evidently you're supposed to be able to look them up on the AKC's and UKC's websites...I've yet to make those features work for my area

so what I've been doing is hounding the breeders I know that show in my area XD
every few weeks I email a few of them on my list to see how they are and if there are any upcoming shows they'll be attending

if you aren't able to make the search thing work I'd suggest doing what I do XD


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## OverTheTopFarm

Birdie said:


> Just wondering, how do you find UKC shows in your area?


I just go to the UKC website ... I find it easy to use to find the ones in my area. 

United Kennel Club: Upcoming Events


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## Birdie

Yeah, I checked the website, but there are none in TN at all (there are very few events in general, actually). I guess if that's the only place events are listed, there just aren't very many! Oh well. Sorry to interrupt, I'm a huge newbie to the show world.


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## Jacknic

Birdie said:


> Just wondering, how do you find UKC shows in your area? I can only ever find events through Infodog, and even still there are many events that I know that I am missing. How do you guys even find these shows to attend? I've only ever been to a few shows; it it just a lack of shows in middle TN or is it the fact that I don't know where to look?


You can find UKC shows listed on the United Kennle Club website, Redirecting.... Start with the DOG EVENT button. It is getting close to the end of the year so not many shows are listed. I don't believe there are many shows in TN though. Maybe my veiw is different because I live in Michigan where UKC has it's headquarters.We have a lot of cross over people who do both AKC and UKC. I started showing at UKC shows because I have Multi colored (parti) poodles and this was my only option to display my dogs, even though I had deep roots in AKC with another breed. I too love the big hair and hairspray, handlers yelling and flapping their arms, but at my age it IS a lot of work, but I do it. My whole point of stomping my feet and saying GET OUT THERE is because we are all at different levels. If you are just getting started, go to a couple UKC shows, watch and talk to people,one of the lovely things about UKC is most shows have "day of show entries". You could go on Sat and go back Sun with your dog and show. If you have been showing UKC for awhile step it up, go watch at a couple AKC/CKC shows. Watch how the professionals show their dogs, there IS a reason they win, it is not ALL about politics. I try to make sure I get something out of every show I attend, if I am not winning, I better be sure I am learning SOMETHING about how to show my dog better. This has been a pretty wild thread--just too fun (?) for my first. Now I have to concentrae on my Thanksgiving dinner. Hope you all have something to be thankful for, PEACE!


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## Rockporters

Hmmm... I clearly do not understand the rules of this forum. Jak did nothing more than state facts. Everything he quoted or said is verifiable by looking through the posts of those he was addressing. He wasn't disrespectful. 

I have no desire to play adolescent games with adults. Either the rules apply to all, or to none. Choosing to selectively enforce rules based on loyalties or friendships is infantile. Such sophomoric behavior prohibits any sort of intelligent discussion or education. 

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but if breeders are willing to put their "business" out there on this forum they shouldn't have any problem with being called on what they've publicly posted. Any educated puppy buyer would ask similar questions. Wouldn't we all love to buy our puppies from someone who is "nice"? There are lots of _nice_ BYB's out there. Those who love the breed, love puppies, feel they are doing everything they can for their dogs. Doesn't change the fact that they're BYB's. If we can't address topics and practices that affect the breed we care about, especially when what's being said is fact, what's the point?

I've not been around as much recently, but I think it's time for me to completely step away for a while. I don't have the time or patience for this. I wish everyone the best. I appreciate the fun, knowledge and support that I've gotten from so many here. Enjoy your pups, and I wish you all the best! 

Happy Thanksgiving!

Beth


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## Fluffyspoos




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## Administrator

Please get this thread back on topic and leave the other stuff out of it. It is being or has been dealt with accordingly.


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## Feralpudel

Rockporters said:


> I have no desire to play adolescent games with adults. Either the rules apply to all, or to none. Choosing to selectively enforce rules based on loyalties or friendships is infantile. Such sophomoric behavior prohibits any sort of intelligent discussion or education.
> 
> This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but if breeders are willing to put their "business" out there on this forum they shouldn't have any problem with being called on what they've publicly posted. Any educated puppy buyer would ask similar questions. Wouldn't we all love to buy our puppies from someone who is "nice"? There are lots of _nice_ BYB's out there. Those who love the breed, love puppies, feel they are doing everything they can for their dogs. Doesn't change the fact that they're BYB's. If we can't address topics and practices that affect the breed we care about, especially when what's being said is fact, what's the point?
> 
> Beth


Great points, Beth. I was also disturbed by the handling of this discussion.


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## Jessie's Mom

Apres Argent said:


> My Girl Karma was from generations of solid health tested parents. She was a Parti born in a litter to a breeder who did not see a reason to cull a beautiful pup with one white leg and a white tail tip. Unfortunatly all the health testing and AKC CH in her pedigree did not make her healthy. On July 23rd Karma died of DCM Dialated Cardiac Myopathy. There were not any warning signs, she ran like the wind, never was stressed after exercise, great weight and beautiful coat.
> 
> A picture,
> Karma just sassy | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> Dam and Sire pedigree below
> 
> Pedigree: AM CH Safari's Solaris
> 
> Pedigree: Jam'n Jj's Gotcha Looking


oh my...i just saw this. i'm so sorry - how old was she?? she is beautiful....


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## CharismaticMillie

Old thread, I know, but I wanted to say sorry about Karma as well. :angel: I was just admiring a photo of her on another forum! 

Health testing is imperfect and definitely does not guarantee that a dog will be free from disease. But, it is an invaluable tool that allows us to take a step in the right direction.


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## Locket

Personally, I'd love to see more breeding dogs with titles other than CH. 

All judges have things they like and don't like and that can seriously effect making the right decision. AKC, UKC and CKC, judges base their decision on looks and "structure", but some of the dogs that are winning should NOT be winning. 

I think the poodle breed is really suffering because of the continental clip that is required in AKC and CKC rings. 

Poodles are/were hunting dogs. There is no FREAKING way a poodle would be a good retriever/hunter while in a CKC or AKC continental with all that neck, ear and body hair. 
All that hair HIDES things. It hides poor skull structure, ewe necks, top lines, proportions, etc. I would love to see all the CH. poodles shown totally shaved down.


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## CharismaticMillie

Although, supposedly the CC was developed as a clip to be used when the poodles worked in the water. The clip has surely changed throughout time, though, and I am sure those changes have been made to enhance the appearance of the poodle in the show ring.

I'd like to see more HCC


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## Locket

ChocolateMillie said:


> Although, supposedly the CC was developed as a clip to be used when the poodles worked in the water. The clip has surely changed throughout time, though, and I am sure those changes have been made to enhance the appearance of the poodle in the show ring.
> 
> I'd like to see more HCC


The poms and jacket were to keep the joints and vital organs "warm" from the cold water, which is fine, but there is NO WAY they had all that volume back then. It's SO ridiculous. I LIKE the CC, but its really out of control in the ring.


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## Apres Argent

I agree health testing is all we have but it is no guarantee of a healthy pup, just one of the many tools used to plan a breeding. 

I have noticed the hair being clipped much tighter in AKC over the last year and I hope the trend continues!


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## Winnow

Locket said:


> I would love to see all the CH. poodles shown totally shaved down.


I would love that too. The only time I cut Charly down I did it just two days before a double show. I so wanted to go into the ring with him butt naked but was to much of a coward to try


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