# Any experience with this breeder?



## poodle221 (Mar 4, 2021)

Does anyone have any experience with this breeder?: Cerberus Poodles or KC Poodles of PA?: KC POODLES OF PA

The Cerberus website isn't very active, but they're active on Facebook. There isn't much or any information on health testing or registration on the parents. The breeder says that the parents are tested through PawPrints, but I don't think they offer any proof. Their prices are good, but we're worried about the quality of the pups produced.

KC Poodles has been very responsive and provides some testing for the sires and some dams, but the prices are sky-high ($3000-$4000)

We've been searching for a red toy/mini poodle since last September to no avail. We've contacted almost everyone on the list in this forum that is within driving distance (up to 4hours) from us and the poodle club of America with minimal responses. We want to adopt from a reputable breeder, but it's been very difficult to even get anyone to talk to us. We're located in DC.

Has anyone worked with any one of these breeders? or have any recommendations of responsive breeders that aren't charging exorbitant prices? ($1500-2500)?

We're losing hope on being able to find an affordable, reputable breeder.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

For some reason, the dark apricot ("red") color is all the rage. Some very unscrupulous people are cashing in on it. Perhaps a poodle of another color that has been carefully bred from health-tested parents would be a better choice.


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## poodle221 (Mar 4, 2021)

Johanna said:


> For some reason, the dark apricot ("red") color is all the rage. Some very unscrupulous people are cashing in on it. Perhaps a poodle of another color that has been carefully bred from health-tested parents would be a better choice.


I agree! I find black poodles to be absolutely adorable. Unfortunately, my family is set on a red one 😕 might be easier and more responsible to convince them to change their mind on color at this point. I just want a healthy and well mannered puppy.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

poodle221 said:


> Does anyone have any experience with this breeder?: Cerberus Poodles or KC Poodles of PA?: KC POODLES OF PA
> 
> The Cerberus website isn't very active, but they're active on Facebook. There isn't much or any information on health testing or registration on the parents. The breeder says that the parents are tested through PawPrints, but I don't think they offer any proof. Their prices are good, but we're worried about the quality of the pups produced.
> 
> ...


Please see the following thread about KC Poodles. The breeder gives her input and there is a good deal of back and forth. I would strongly advise reading the whole thread.









Hello from PA


Hello. We are currently in the process of trying to add a new miniature or toy poodle to our family. Any advice on breeders in the tri-state area would be greatly appreciated. Has anyone ever had any experience with KC Poodles of PA, Light and Lively Poodles from Staten Island, or Eriand...




www.poodleforum.com





They have updated their website. I still see zero mention of patella screening. To me that would be an automatic no because joint issues are just too much of a risk with toy breeds. I believe this is a breeder that is slowly trying to improve their methods but they are not to the standard I'd be looking for when choosing a breeder.

Cerberus is also an automatic no for me for multiple reasons. The doodle breeding shows they are making all their decisions based on profit which I don't want to see in a breeder. Also genetic testing is not enough. They should be completing CHIC required health testing (see the OFA website for details) which includes orthopedic screening.

When I look at breeders I'm looking for somebody who does all CHIC required health testing (plus more is good), titles many of their dogs in conformation, obedience, rally, agility (at least one but confomation + something else is ideal), and has a thorough socialization program for puppies. There are many other things I look for but these would be the basics for me.

I would echo Johanna that red is a bit of a fad color currently and it will be extremely difficult to find a well bred puppy of this color. I would expect waitlists to be at least a year. For red minis I would check with DiMarnique and Danube and Shiann as they have active red programs and show their dogs in conformation. But I would say that if your family is more concerned with color than health and temperament, you may need to speak to them about priorities.


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## poodle221 (Mar 4, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> Please see the following thread about KC Poodles. The breeder gives her input and there is a good deal of back and forth. I would strongly advise reading the whole thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the thorough response and advice, I really appreciate it (especially that thread, super helpful!), this forum is amazing. We will have a chat about expectations and priorities and keep waiting for a good breeder.


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## SCmom (Mar 4, 2021)

poodle221 said:


> Does anyone have any experience with this breeder?: Cerberus Poodles or KC Poodles of PA?: KC POODLES OF PA
> 
> The Cerberus website isn't very active, but they're active on Facebook. There isn't much or any information on health testing or registration on the parents. The breeder says that the parents are tested through PawPrints, but I don't think they offer any proof. Their prices are good, but we're worried about the quality of the pups produced.
> 
> ...


When I was looking for a breeder someone told me to go to Gooddog.com that is where I went. I met a great breeder that I will be driving 100 miles to meet and pick up my baby Saturday.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Here's a thought. See if you can get the AKC registration name of the dam you are interested in. Then look up her name on OFA.org. As an example of what you would see, try looking up the name "DEBROCK'S AVRA ON 48TH". (I'm using this name simply because the dog was invited to show at Westminster; I have no opinions or other knowledge about the breeder.) Running this search, you would see that Avra on 48th got a patella test. You would also see that a bunch of related dogs also got tested, many to a greater degree. Since patella problems are so common in toy poodles, I would move on from any breeder who isn't doing patella tests at a bare minimum.


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## acclarkny (Dec 2, 2020)

poodle221 said:


> Does anyone have any experience with this breeder?: Cerberus Poodles or KC Poodles of PA?: KC POODLES OF PA
> 
> The Cerberus website isn't very active, but they're active on Facebook. There isn't much or any information on health testing or registration on the parents. The breeder says that the parents are tested through PawPrints, but I don't think they offer any proof. Their prices are good, but we're worried about the quality of the pups produced.
> 
> ...


My partner and I recently adopted a "Red" poodle, Venus, born in November. The price we paid was comparable to KC Poodles. The breeder does extensive health testing on all her pups; however, not going to lie - I feel slightly taken advantage of as the Sire is pure red, but the mother is an Apricot (with red lineage) and she's already starting to lighten. Absolutely Beautiful girl and wouldn't be an issue otherwise- but considering we were charged extra for that particular color (over apricot) it's something to be aware of. I'm happy to share more information if you're interested!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

acclarkny said:


> My partner and I recently adopted a "Red" poodle, Venus, born in November. The price we paid was comparable to KC Poodles. The breeder does extensive health testing on all her pups; however, not going to lie - I feel slightly taken advantage of as the Sire is pure red, but the mother is an Apricot (with red lineage) and she's already starting to lighten. Absolutely Beautiful girl and wouldn't be an issue otherwise- but considering we were charged extra for that particular color (over apricot) it's something to be aware of. I'm happy to share more information if you're interested!


Lightening does not necessarily mean your pup is apricot. Almost all reds start out darker as pups and start to lighten around a year of age. Most reds will lighten to an orangey color. Apricots often lighten to a more pale creamy color. Occasionally they will hold onto color with very little lightening but fading is the norm. But I would say reputable breeders typically do not charge different prices based on color.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome!

Having a color preference is completely understandable but there are several important things to understand.
First, most poodle colors are considered fading colors. That means they will change from the darker you see as puppies to lighter, with some exceptions. Red is rarely an exception.

Having a single color preference really limits your options. If your family can decide on a 2nd and even third choice, your options increase.

Temperament is a lifelong quality. Choosing a breeder who can help you find the right fit for your family is invaluable.

If I were looking for myself, I'd pass on both of these breeders for reasons listed above and more. If I wouldn't choose them for myself, I couldn't recommend them to others.

Pricing has crept up so the range is now more $2000-$3500 USD.

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*Testing to look for on OFA for toy poodles. *
The PRA test is a genetic test and may be done at any age and only needs to be done one time.
The eye exam by an ophthalmologist is similar to a human exam and is to be done yearly, as human eye exams are to be done periodically.
The patellar exam is also a physical exam. This is most indicative when done at the age recommended by OFA, 12 months or older. This is to allow for more mature growth.
(One of these breeders actually disallows patella as covered by their guarantee entirely when the breeding parents might have been tested and ruled out from breeding. There is a difference between patellar injuries and congenitally bad patellas.)

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test*
DNA based test from an approved laboratory ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚


*This is the partial DNA panel from PawPrint for toy poodles:

Below are the tests we currently offer for the Toy Poodle *
1.) Select the tests or panel that you would like to order below
2.) Choose the dogs you would like to test on the next page

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Toy Poodle Essential Panel*

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Click the test name to learn more *Degenerative Myelopathy* 
*Aliases:* Canine degenerative myelopathy, DM *Progressive Retinal Atrophy, Progressive Rod-Cone Degeneration* 
*Aliases:* PRA-PRCD, PRCD *Progressive Retinal Atrophy, Rod-Cone Dysplasia 4* 
*Aliases:* PRA-rcd4
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*Aliases:* Ivermectin sensitivity, MDR1 gene defect, Multidrug sensitivity, MDR1 *Osteochondrodysplasia* 
*Aliases:* Skeletal dwarfism, OCD *Von Willebrand Disease I* 
*Aliases:* Pseudohemophilia, Vascular hemophilia, von Willebrand disease type 1, von Willebrand's disease, VWDI
*Disease Tests
Additional Disease Tests for Toy Poodle *

Click the test name to learn more *Chondrodystrophy (CDDY and IVDD Risk) with or without Chondrodysplasia (CDPA)* 
*Aliases:* CDDY with IVDD, CDPA, Hansen's Type I IVDD, Intervertebral Disc Disease *GM2 Gangliosidosis (Poodle Type)* 
*Aliases:* Sandhoff disease, Type 0 gangliosidosis *Hereditary Cataracts* 
*Aliases:* Early onset cataracts, Juvenile cataracts, HC, JC *Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures* 
*Aliases:* NEWS

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Here's an overview on choosing a breeder and some additional info, in case you haven't seen this already...

Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.

When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.
Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies. Many poodle colors change thru their lives.
Temperament is lifelong trait.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".

Trend pricing for color, gender or size, and other marketing terms like "teacup" "royal"are not hallmarks of a quality, conscientious breeder. 

An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of *___* (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my abbreviated personal criteria (I have another more detailed but just this for now):

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is _well bred. _


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Definitely use the Poodle Clubs for breeder referral too.


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## acclarkny (Dec 2, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Lightening does not necessarily mean your pup is apricot. Almost all reds start out darker as pups and start to lighten around a year of age. Most reds will lighten to an orangey color. Apricots often lighten to a more pale creamy color. Occasionally they will hold onto color with very little lightening but fading is the norm. But I would say reputable breeders typically do not charge different prices based on color.


Thank you for sharing your insight! This was our first time buying from a breeder ourselves (although not first time dog owners). I had already chosen a particular breeder many years prior and was just waiting for the right time. Up until my partner fell in love with the reds and apricots we would see at the park. So that eventually narrowed our search quite a bit, and then we felt fortunate that there was a litter coming in our specified time frame. While we were a little skeptical about the reds (and another color, maybe Blue?) being more expensive - $4k - we chalked it up to pandemic demand. We also appreciated the fact that the OFA and full pedigree information was readily available on the parents and the contract wasn’t anything outrageous. I had asked others on this forum and elsewhere who have adopted from this breeder as it’s sometimes tough to find real reviews that aren’t from friends and family.

Didn’t mean to hijack the thread, but it caught my attention as we are considering adding a 2nd spoo to the family in the near future and I’m going to lead with my head rather than heart. I do believe this breeder is quite reputable, but there were definitely hiccups along the way that would give me pause adopting from them again.


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## acclarkny (Dec 2, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi and Welcome!
> 
> Having a color preference is completely understandable but there are several important things to understand.
> First, most poodle colors are considered fading colors. That means they will change from the darker you see as puppies to lighter, with some exceptions. Red is rarely an exception.
> ...


Absolutely perfect and thorough information. Thank you!


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## poodle221 (Mar 4, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi and Welcome!
> 
> Having a color preference is completely understandable but there are several important things to understand.
> First, most poodle colors are considered fading colors. That means they will change from the darker you see as puppies to lighter, with some exceptions. Red is rarely an exception.
> ...


THANK YOU SO MUCH! This is so insightful, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply so thoroughly!


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