# Confession and Heartbreak!



## bigredpoodle

How old is she ? Spoosprit this kind of thing does happen ! Please do not be upset by this ...


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## spoospirit

_10-months old._


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## bigredpoodle

Well you certainly arent the first one to have a pregnant 10 month old from what I have read on this forum . I say it is not the end of the world accidents happen..hwell:


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## spoospirit

bigredpoodle said:


> Well you certainly arent the first one to have a pregnant 10 month old from what I have read on this forum . I say it is not the end of the world accidents happen..hwell:


_That's very kind of you Bigred. However, I am quite sick about it. I feel like I failed her and I failed our program that we have been so careful to develop so far. This has been very difficult for me to accept. I can't tell you how ashamed I feel right now.

The only positive I can think of to do about it now is take the best care of her and any pups if she has any that I can.
_


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## plumcrazy

:hug: I hope you can bring yourself to realize that this was NOT your fault and forgive yourself! There is a big (HUGE) difference between someone like you, who is commited to doing everything right but whose dogs' instincts overcame your planning; and someone who intentionally, purposefully, and with anticipation of $$$$ puts their young in-heat bitch in front of a stud and brings out the popcorn to watch the show!!!!

It is water under the bridge and it cannot be changed now, only managed. It sounds like you're doing everything right and isn't this how all human beings learn??? By being involved in mistakes and changing what we do to avoid them in the future???

Peace!!


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## bigredpoodle

Well you stop feeling that way right now ! this was not done on purpose and she will be fine ! 
Those puppies are going to be very lucky to have you !


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## Keithsomething

I think the fact that it was a complete accident speaks VOLUMES of you as a breeder!!
you ((from what I've read on the forum and this post)) would NEVER intentionally allow for this to happen!

I don't think you should beat yourself up about it though, it was a complete accident and you tried thinking of ways to fix it, and now you're doing the proper thing =]]
I personally think you're doing the right thing and taking care of your little girl =]

I'm actually horrified too because Elphie is in heat...according to the vet ((how long does it last?!)) and I watch her like a hawk because we only have a 4ft temporary fence until April and there have been a few boys hopping into our yard the past week v.v;

I'm not asking on peoples opinions on abortions 
but does it hurt the female to spay her while shes pregnant?


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## plumcrazy

Keith, the only experience I have with spaying pregnant females is in shelter dogs who don't belong to anyone. Our vet would spay pregnant dogs if they were very early in their pregnancy, but really did not like to do it if they were further along (blood vessels engorged, more possibility of bleeding too much, etc..) Until the day they wanted me to have a dog spayed who was 1 1/2 weeks from DELIVERY... She was so far along that I just couldn't do it so they fired me as the manager of the shelter!! She ended up having 6 beautiful mixed breed babies in my house - I made sure everyone was spayed and neutered and found homes for them all... 

If I had to make that decision again, for me it would depend on how far along the pregancy was, and which would be riskier; the spay while pregnant or allowing the bitch to deliver...

It is fully my plan to have Lucy spayed before her first heat cycle - I just hope she doesn't go into heat early!!


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## Cdnjennga

Thanks for sharing Spoospirit. Please don't be too hard on yourself. The reality is that accidents happen, even when we do our best to prevent them. This is why so many breeders have no or very few studs in their home (or have kennels). Because it can be hard to keep dogs apart when all their instincts are telling them to mate!

Anyway, your response to this situation has been admirable. And please do keep us up to date on what happens!


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## Mercury's Mom

I think the fact that you are upset and feel ashamed says a lot. You are no irresponcible breeder who is trying to milk what you can out of your dogs. What is important now is that you are dealing with the situation at hand and that you are taking good care of the teen mom and future pups. Perhaps there will be no pups at all and it is just a false pregnancy. If not, I know you will do everything in your power to make sure everyone involved is well taken care of. Good food, love and vet care goes a long way.

On a side note, I had heard that the rabies vacine terminates early pregnancy and that a vet can give prednisone as well, but perhaps that is a myth. The humane society here routinely vacinates all female cats when they first arrive to abort any possible litters but maybe that only works on cats.


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## Spencer

Quick question... why won't the puppies be registered?

Are Taffy and Billy siblings/closely related?


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## Fluffyspoos

How could we hold you responsible for an accident you never intended to happen? We can do what we can to prevent such happenings.. but dogs will be dogs! We all know that you intend on showing Taffy so you can't spay, and I personally respect whatever you do. You're being very professional about this, even though it's completely an accident.


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## spoospirit

Spencer said:


> Quick question... why won't the puppies be registered?
> 
> Are Taffy and Billy siblings/closely related?


_Not at all....they are from completely different lines. Both of them are too young to have proper testing on them so we will have no idea if they are clear or not for the common poodle health issues. This makes us very uncomfortable about registering this litter. _


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## Spencer

spoospirit said:


> _Not at all....they are from completely different lines. Both of them are too young to have proper testing on them so we will have no idea if they are clear or not for the common poodle health issues. This makes us very uncomfortable about registering this litter. _


Gotcha. That is quite admirable, actually. I'm sure a lot of people with accidental litters would register them anyway and sell them expensively to uneducated buyers.


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## KPoos

Well, accidents happen especially considering what you were dealing with at the time. When your mind is preoccupied with something tragic, you might not be as on top of things as you normally would. I think you are going to be very responsible and that's all you can do in this situation. Please let us know how things go.


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## spoospirit

_Thank you all for being supportive. It helps. Dianne and I will certainly keep you all updated as time goes by. We feel like you are all part of our extended family. 

I love my little Taffy with all of my heart and was so excited that she was getting to the point where I could finally introduce her to the show ring. But that is not to be for now. I will love her through this and if she does have babies, I will love them and raise them well and make sure that they go to good, forever homes. _


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## wishpoo

Spirit - I am so sorry that you have to go through all of this : ( , but as everybody else said - accidents DO happen even to the LONG time and seasoned and excellent breeders !!!! You did not do it on purpose and yes - it can happen in a split of a second ! It is extremely hard to have a stud and a bitch in heat at the same premises. Breeders I know usually have studs (even the one they own) placed in friends home or with handler until heat is over or literary have separate quarters in the house for a stud until the heat is over. It is very hard job and very complicated to control them - so really - what happened happened - not the end of the world - "love was in the air" . You tried your best after the fact and now all is in "natures hands". I have no doubts that you will find wonderful homes for puppies  and that is all that matters now really : ))) ! 

For others who have un-spayed girls - be VERY careful !!! Dogs are known to "connect" even through a chain-link fence and girls sometimes "run away" from home to find a male in the neighborhood !!!


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## amerique2

Spoospirit, you are kind and loving and wouldn't have let it happen on purpose. It was an accident, and life goes on. Hate that you've had to shoulder the burden (along with Diane) up until now and worried about telling your forum family. We support you. You're doing a great job taking care of Taffy and her future puppies. Once the puppies are born she can continue on her show career. We love you.


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## Keithsomething

oh
and I wanted to add, I think I'd buy one of your accident puppies over half the breeders in my state 
and thats just from the way you speak about your dogs xDD
how much you care for taffy is admirable :"D


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## Olie

Thats too bad. I love Taffy too, I admire her ALL the time. 

This is a huge mistake but one your honest and upfront about. I am sure your goal will be not allowing this to happen again, you have such a good program going and I am sure this incident will not fail your hard work. What will be your process with the pups? I notice this comes up a lot on and off for breeder as a topic here. I belive your a reputable person, but curious if you wouldn't mind educating some of us on how the sale of the pups happens in situations like this.

Mistakes happen - do not allow yourself to be drug down because it can limit your sure succes with your program. Thanks for sharing.


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## cbrand

I'm so sorry. A cautionary tale for anyone who thinks they want to breed someday. This is one reason I have never kept a boy. I don't have kennels or a way to thoroughly separate dogs other than crates and it is hard to crate rotate for so many days.

So lessons to be learned? The studs and bitches need to be completely separated the entire time a girl is in heat and this can be as long as 21 days. They should never be out together, even supervised. As Wishpoo said, in the future think about sending your boy away. The truth is, that the next time one of the girls is in heat, he is going to know what it up and he will be doubling interested in getting to the girl.

So now, you need to prepare for the inevitable. Personally I would register the litter because if you don't, it will attract the wrong sort of buyer. Next, you have 63 days give or take to bring yourself up to speed on whelping a litter. I recommend the following books:

The Complete Book of Dog Breeding Dan Rice D.V.M
Successful Dog Breeding  Chris Walkowicz

You will need a whelping box. I know that some folks whelp in a plastic swimming pool, but I prefer something with pig rails and something that grows with the puppy's needs. See the discussion about grate training puppies. You are going to have to keep this litter inside this time of year and it will keep your house cleaner. Plan on taking a couple of days off of work since a bitch in labor and a brand new mother should not be left alone.


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## Fur Elite

I would register them as well. Sell them on limited registration with spay/neuter. No need not to register. Many people think registration is a HUGE deal for their pets when really, it is meaningless often. But it can make a difference to a proud pet owner, so why not? I can't tell you how many of my clients proudly pull out their pets AKC papers to show me!

This was a big fear of mine when I got Yogi. I always sent one of them away when it was that time of year. I simply couldn't stand the whining and carrying on anyway. It was well worth a large boarding fee if I couldn't find a friend to take one in.

*If you can, I would get whatever health testing you can get done on the parents ASAP *so at least you are that far along. You can do everything except for the hips on the bitch. Then you could get at least a prelim on the hips two months (?) after birth. If that all turns out well, you will at least feel better and know your puppies are sound and ask a respectable price for them. If it doesn't turn out well, be up front, slash the price and place them in the best homes you can.

I used a three ring inflatable pool for my puppies and it was AWESOME. I highly recommend it.


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## Fur Elite

Oh...and if you get a vet who knows what they are doing to do the hip prelim, they can can tell you by looking at the xrays if they think there will be a problem. If they say the look good, of course you still don't know until your OFA comes in, but you have some peace of mind in thinking they will pass as it sometimes takes a while for the results. If they say they look bad, they probably do (if the person has experience).


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## Marian

Please stop beating yourself up over this, Spoospirit. I'm sure Taffy's puppies will make great pets for someone who isn't interested in breeding or showing them. There are lots of people like us out there.

Take Teddy, for example, he's a mixture of a mini and a toy and so he's this weird in between size. But he's the most perfect dog I've ever seen! 

It's not the end of the world!


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## Purple Poodle

I agree with everyone.

I did have a question though why would you not have her x-rayed?


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## bigpoodleperson

Like the others have said, please dont beat yourself up over this. Is it the most ideal thing in the world? No. Is it the worst thing in the world? No! You will care for the mother and puppies and find them Forever loving homes! It will be ok.

I too would have the litter registured on limited registration. What if a puppy buyer wanted to do AKC activities with the puppy? I didnt start out wanting to do sports with Ry and he has 2 titles now (well, tech. 4).


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## Marian

I also agree with having the puppies registered for the reason that Fur Elite mentioned. I told his breeder that I didn't even care if he had papers and that she really didn't even need to bother sending me the papers. She sent them to me anyway, and the first thing I did was to register him. It's totally a matter of pride for an owner of a purebred poodle, and especially so these days. I can't tell you how many times people have asked me if he was a cockapoo, a maltipoo, a whateverpoo, etc., and it gets to you after a while. As silly as it sounds, poodle owners have poodles for very specific reasons, and to have that little blue AKC medallion on his collar made me feel proud. I also had him registered in their companion animal recovery program.

It has since been replaced by his yellow HomeAgain ID, but I'm still glad I registered him, even though I never had any intentions of mating him or showing him.


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## jester's mom

I want to thank you all for your kind support of Debbie and I.... and mostly to Debbie as she feels so horribly responsible. Yes, when she IM'd me at work and told me, I almost fell off my chair, I was not happy AT ALL! I knew Deb had to be home crying as she wrote to me so I did not get upset with her, just wrote "DEB NOOO" back to her! I was horrified! She was frantic as to what to do, I calmed her down and called the vet. Sure would have been nice if they could have had some "after" pill to give us, but spaying was not an option.

Yes, we were terribly concerned about how to broach this with our friends here on the forum. We are so adamant on doing things the right way, we felt like we let everyone down, including ourselves. I wanted to wait and be sure that Taffy may indeed have "been caught" before we said anything as he bred her only 4 days before the end of her heat, and we were really hoping that it was too late for any eggs to still be around. I palpated her a few times.... I believe I felt one and possibly two but she is carrying them high. I am very familiar with palpating at three weeks and what I am feeling for. The thing that is most obvious is that her vulva is still enlarged and her nipples starting to hang a bit. So, we are assuming that she has one or two pups in there.

Right after this happened, I told Deb that Taffy will be coming to MY house whenever she is in heat again. We are NOT taking any chances of accidental breeding again! Deb only has the one female so she will come here for three weeks. 

I have to tell you, Deb and I do not like to lie or hide things so Deb figured it was time to let everyone know about this accident, now that we are pretty sure she is carrying, and let the chips fall where they would. We both worried that the friends we had made here would be upset with Deb (and thus me too) and we probably ruined the friendships we had made here! But, we could not hide what had happened and did not feel it right to lie about it. It happened and we could not go back and make it not so. I told Deb not to get overly beating herself up over it, we would neuter the pups and not register them and we would do what was right. I have to say, I, and Deb, are very surprised and relieved that that we have not lost our friends here on the forum!!!!

Cbrand... thank you for all the good info. We both appreciate the concern and helpful info for the pups!!! Thanks! 

I have whelped and raised pups and do have the Complete Book of Dog Breeding which I am letting Deb borrow to read. I am going to be walking Deb through it all and hope to be by her side when the time comes for birthing (if she doesn't whelp when I am at work). I raised and showed Britts (finished Champions .. one in bred-by which was exciting!) also raised and showed Dobies in obedience to their titles and did tracking. We will be doing everything necessary for a healthy birthing and proper care of pups! I like to use the baby pool for the whelping and first couple days, it is small, round and easy to clean out of all the birthing stuff. After that, we will have a wooden box with the ridge on the sides that allow room for pups not to get squished if mom lays against them, pig rails as you call them, Cbrand. LOL... I have not heard them called that.

Everyone!!! I want to thank you so VERY, VERY much for your support in all of this.. it is so much appreciated. We so did not want to lose our friends here but also did not want to lie to you all. Thank you.

We will be keeping you all posted on how things go. I suppose we could consider registering the pups and then neutering them before they leave to their new homes. HOPEFULLY it is only a single or poss. two pups. 

Oh, and yes, we have already been talking about getting prelims on Billy so we know where we are at with that and speaking to the vet about possibly doing Taffy's as well, but she is under a year so I would prefer to wait till after the pups are a few weeks old and thus, she is over a year, before we do her. We are also planning on getting their VWD's done and I am looking into whatever else we can do now. Actually, we are getting all of the poodles VWD's and DNA's done this month. We both would like to give as much info as possible to the new owners on the health of the parents, even though they will be fixed and be pets. Pet owners want a healthy pet as well as people who show!

Take care all, and thanks!!


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## spoospirit

Purple Poodle said:


> I agree with everyone.
> 
> I did have a question though why would you not have her x-rayed?



_I am not sure if you are meaning for pups or for her hips. We decided not to expose her and possible pups to x-rays. If she is, indeed, pregnant it will bare itself out soon enough and we are already taking care of her as if she is. If you were asking about x-rays for hips, then, yes, we will be doing that a few weeks after birthing._


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## KPoos

From my reading, it doesn't give correct results to x-ray hips while a bitch is either in heat or pregnant. The hormones from the heat and pregnancy loosen the hips just like in a woman so it's advised to wait until after their heat and definitely not during a pregnancy.


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## cbrand

I would think the most important tests to do 1st would be VWBs and NE. This is because puppies will be directly impacted if they are affected. Then I would do hips/eyes/thyroid/cardio on the stud and eyes on the bitch. I would wait to do further testing on the bitch because pregnancy could throw off results.


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## spoospirit

cbrand said:


> I would think the most important tests to do 1st would be VWBs and NE. This is because puppies will be directly impacted if they are affected. Then I would do hips/eyes/thyroid/cardio on the stud and eyes on the bitch. I would wait to do further testing on the bitch because pregnancy could throw off results.


_Thank you for that list. We will definitely go this route._


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## artsycourtneysue

spoospirit said:


> _Thank you all for being supportive. It helps. Dianne and I will certainly keep you all updated as time goes by. We feel like you are all part of our extended family.
> 
> I love my little Taffy with all of my heart and was so excited that she was getting to the point where I could finally introduce her to the show ring. But that is not to be for now. I will love her through this and if she does have babies, I will love them and raise them well and make sure that they go to good, forever homes. _


Spoospirit- Thank you for sharing this situation with us. I is understandable and mistakes do happen. What is evident is how much you love your dogs! Taffy and Billy are very lucky  All you can do now is deal with the situation as best you can- and we know you will!


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## spoospirit

_Dianne has already been on the phone to our vet getting all of the information we need to start getting all of these things done. We're still waiting to hear if she is certified to do the eyes. It's a start in the right direction._


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## bigredpoodle

spoospirit said:


> _Dianne has already been on the phone to our vet getting all of the information we need to start getting all of these things done. We're still waiting to hear if she is certified to do the eyes. It's a start in the right direction._


Some of the post on here are frightening. You cannot xray a pregnant dog anymore than you can a human and doing right after the pups her hips will still be out of the socket from birthing the babies. Be sure and tell the vet that she is pregnant so any thing like the formula to dilate the eyes will not affet the babies..vW is a cheek swab NE Is blood. Actually you could check Billy and be safe.. As only one parent needs to be clear for the babies to be clear...


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## jester's mom

bigredpoodle said:


> Some of the post on here are frightening. You cannot xray a pregnant dog anymore than you can a human and doing right after the pups her hips will still be out of the socket from birthing the babies. Be sure and tell the vet that she is pregnant so any thing like the formula to dilate the eyes will not affet the babies..vW is a cheek swab NE Is blood. Actually you could check Billy and be safe.. As only one parent needs to be clear for the babies to be clear...


Thank you. We were not planning on doing her hips until a few weeks later, but you are right... I did not think of the fact that it takes time for the hip joints to go back into place after. I have always had my dog's hips done before anything happened..... sigh! 

Yes, I am setting up the DNA, VWd and NEwS testing to be done directly with OFA at this very moment, they send the stuff, you send it back they give the results. The vet is calling me back for making the appointment to get Billy's hips pennhip done and as much as they can do there including the cardio.

Thank you for your info and concern!!!


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## spoospirit

bigredpoodle said:


> Some of the post on here are frightening. You cannot xray a pregnant dog anymore than you can a human and doing right after the pups her hips will still be out of the socket from birthing the babies. Be sure and tell the vet that she is pregnant so any thing like the formula to dilate the eyes will not affet the babies..vW is a cheek swab NE Is blood. Actually you could check Billy and be safe.. As only one parent needs to be clear for the babies to be clear...


_Thank you for your concern and warning Bigred. We have no intention of having Taffy x-rayed for that very reason. I know how dangerous it is for a woman and assumed it has to be the same for any other creature. My former husband has been and x-ray tech for over 30 years. I have heard a lot of very scary stories! _


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## Cdnjennga

bigredpoodle said:


> Some of the post on here are frightening. You cannot xray a pregnant dog anymore than you can a human and doing right after the pups her hips will still be out of the socket from birthing the babies. Be sure and tell the vet that she is pregnant so any thing like the formula to dilate the eyes will not affet the babies..vW is a cheek swab NE Is blood. Actually you could check Billy and be safe.. As only one parent needs to be clear for the babies to be clear...


Bigred, I'm guessing you mean you can't xray a pregnant dog for hip certification? Because, without getting into the health issues of it/ exposure to radiation, xraying to confirm pregnancy and get an idea of the number of pups is very common. I believe ultrasound is also a possibility, although less accurate.

Of course at the end of the day, you're either having pups or you're not, so I think preparing as if you are having pups and having a surprise on the day is fine as well!


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## KPoos

Cdnjennga said:


> Bigred, I'm guessing you mean you can't xray a pregnant dog for hip certification? Because, without getting into the health issues of it/ exposure to radiation, xraying to confirm pregnancy and get an idea of the number of pups is very common. I believe ultrasound is also a possibility, although less accurate.
> 
> Of course at the end of the day, you're either having pups or you're not, so I think preparing as if you are having pups and having a surprise on the day is fine as well!


You can confirm pregnancy through ultrasound nowdays. I think most vet clinics to offer ultrasounds although I know the machines are very expensive so some might not have them in office.


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## Bella's Momma

I'm sorry. I appreciate you posting here, not just to be honest with everyone but as a cautionary tale for others!

Bella will be 10 1/2 mos when spayed, I thought that was plenty early enough for a dog without other females around in heat. I know all dogs are different, but our breeder said she has dogs near 2 years before first heat. 

TG we have a high block wall (and the dog next door is female), but in any case I'm keeping my fingers crossed we will get it done early enough.

And as your average poodle-buyer, I would also say I think you should register. I am not a shower or a wanna-be-breeder, just a person who wanted a good family dog, but we wouldn't have bought a dog that was unregisterable or didn't have the parents tested for common poodle-health concerns. No matter what YOU say is the case, if I didn't know you personally and was just some person who wanted a poodle, it would raise red flags to me. So, like a PPer said, the question would be what kind of people would your litter attract and would they be the ones you want to have the pups? Just my newbie poodle-momma 2 cents.


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## bigredpoodle

Cdnjennga said:


> Bigred, I'm guessing you mean you can't xray a pregnant dog for hip certification? Because, without getting into the health issues of it/ exposure to radiation, xraying to confirm pregnancy and get an idea of the number of pups is very common. I believe ultrasound is also a possibility, although less accurate.
> 
> Of course at the end of the day, you're either having pups or you're not, so I think preparing as if you are having pups and having a surprise on the day is fine as well!


Yes there is no purpose to x ray at this point .. You are correct that at the end of the day she either is or isn't. Prepare for it best that you can . The thing that I dislike about an ultrasound , it gives you a false sense of how many pups there are.... Pups hide behind each other. Besides with all the stress in the house right now  Less is best kick back feed her well. Build a whelping box and read the *Whelping and rearing of puppies* , very down to earth book Cheap at Amazon...
My husband made our whelping bos not pretty but very functional. You will need a heat lamp for sure this time of the year and a heating pad,,,, largest you can get....Alcohol some scissors LOTS of towels......Goats milk  I use Meyenberg powdered also from Amazon...Please do not sell them unregistered....


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## jester's mom

Cdnjennga said:


> Bigred, I'm guessing you mean you can't xray a pregnant dog for hip certification? Because, without getting into the health issues of it/ exposure to radiation, xraying to confirm pregnancy and get an idea of the number of pups is very common. I believe ultrasound is also a possibility, although less accurate.
> 
> Of course at the end of the day, you're either having pups or you're not, so I think preparing as if you are having pups and having a surprise on the day is fine as well!


Yeah, Deb and I had discussed the pros and cons and the ultimate decision was... not worth the extra cost that can go into the care of Taffy and poss. coming pups and the tests that we want to get done on Billy and Taffy. Xrays and ultrasounds would tell us what is in there, but in the end, either she has pups or doesn't. And since she is showing the classic signs of having pups, we will go with that assumption and treat her as a pregnant mom and spend our money on more needed things like tests and whelping stuff, shots and wormer and vet checks for pups and everything else needed.


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## bigredpoodle

Right on !!!!!


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## jester's mom

We were planning on doing all the tests that can be done on all five of our spoos during this summer and then getting Billy and Grace's hips done in Aug when they turned 2, but best laid plans.... sigh! So, now we will hustle to get all the tests and prelims on Billy and what we can do safely for Taffy. 

Yes, Deb and I talked about it since you all have posted and we will register the pups... never thought about the fact that owners might like to do things like obedience/agility and such with their neutered buddy. Just was most concerned that since the parents were not fully tested and can't have their hips truely fully tested till 2 years it would be best not to have papers for them. But, you are right, it would give the owners a sense of pride that their dog is registered and they may well decide to do some AKC stuff that does not have to have an intact dog for.


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## bigredpoodle

I just had a thought Were the parents tested ? If so then the litter is clear for vW NeWS


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## jester's mom

Billy's parents I believe were and are clear, I have called the breeder and am waiting to hear back... I know they were DNA tested, eye Certs, hips done and good, I do believe the rest was done too but want to verify. Taffy's I don't believe were.

Thanks for the heads up on that fact. If Billy's were, that could save us a little cost.


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## Locket

I don't know much about heats and breedings, but if you knew that she had 4 days left in her cycle, why would you take the chance?

I feel for you, and hope she is not pregnant. If she is, I hope she has a safe whelping and hope the pups come out healthy. 

Thanks for sharing this with us.


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## FUZBUTZ

Hey ladies, don't you fret, I'm sure everything will be just fine. If Taffy does have pups there is no doubt that Taffy as well as her pups will have some of the best human mama/grandma persons to take care of them. Accidents do happen. Also no doubt in my mind that these pups will not only have a great start in life, they will be surrounded by love and will be absolutely beautiful too, just look at their parents. Glad to hear that you have decided to register, this does mean a lot to some people.


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## FUZBUTZ

Locket, I believe that Spoospirit said that she thought that Taffy's heat cycle was over. She didn't know that she still had 4 days left to go, until after the tie up. There is no way of knowing exactly how many days there would be left in a cycle. The 2 dogs didn't seem interested in each other and she felt the cycle was over.


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## spoospirit

Locket said:


> I don't know much about heats and breedings, but if you knew that she had 4 days left in her cycle, why would you take the chance?
> 
> I feel for you, and hope she is not pregnant. If she is, I hope she has a safe whelping and hope the pups come out healthy.
> 
> Thanks for sharing this with us.


_Unfortunately, as I originally posted, Dianne and I had spent a week in Virginia to say goodbye to my son who was being deployed to Iraq and we came home to find that our mom was in the active dying stage. Between those couple of days, I noticed blood on the floor here and there in the house and checked Taffy immediately. She was obviously in full heat but the problem was that we could only make a guess as to when she may have started since it happened while we were away in Virginia. I went by their total lack of interest in each other to come to the conclusion that she must have passed her standing heat. We all know now that I guessed wrong. 

There are no do over's in this so we must move forward with a lesson hard learned and do the best we can for Taffy and her possible puppy(ies)._


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## bigredpoodle

spoospirit said:


> _Unfortunately, as I originally posted, Dianne and I had spent a week in Virginia to say goodbye to my son who was being deployed to Iraq and we came home to find that our mom was in the active dying stage. Between those couple of days, I noticed blood on the floor here and there in the house and checked Taffy immediately. She was obviously in full heat but the problem was that we could only make a guess as to when she may have started since it happened while we were away in Virginia. I went by their total lack of interest in each other to come to the conclusion that she must have passed her standing heat. We all know now that I guessed wrong.
> 
> There are no do over's in this so we must move forward with a lesson hard learned and do the best we can for Taffy and her possible puppy(ies)._


That is right ! Move on and keep us posted, please ? You are correct I know if I do not write it down I am in trouble  So with all that you had going on it is not a wonder how and why....This will all turn out fine !


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Cdnjennga said:


> Bigred, I'm guessing you mean you can't xray a pregnant dog for hip certification? Because, without getting into the health issues of it/ exposure to radiation, xraying to confirm pregnancy and get an idea of the number of pups is very common. I believe ultrasound is also a possibility, although less accurate.
> 
> Of course at the end of the day, you're either having pups or you're not, so I think preparing as if you are having pups and having a surprise on the day is fine as well!


You do not xray to confirm pregnancy or numbers until the end of the pregnancy. If done early on the radiation can damage the fetus's.

NEWS is also a cheek swab. If you go online you may find a clinic going on and they will mail you the kit to do the vWd and NE swabs at a considerably lower rate than OFA charges.

Best of luck with everything Spoospirit. Things happen and you should not beat yourself up over this. You have already figured our how not to have it happen again so all you can do now is get ready and enjoy the babies when they arrive.


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## Fur Elite

Hey, and each of your breeding dog's sets of parents had NE testing done and they are both clear, you have no worries and don't need to test. Only if there is a carrier in the soon-to-be grandparents.


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## jester's mom

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> You do not xray to confirm pregnancy or numbers until the end of the pregnancy. If done early on the radiation can damage the fetus's.
> 
> NEWS is also a cheek swab. If you go online you may find a clinic going on and they will mail you the kit to do the vWd and NE swabs at a considerably lower rate than OFA charges.
> 
> Best of luck with everything Spoospirit. Things happen and you should not beat yourself up over this. You have already figured our how not to have it happen again so all you can do now is get ready and enjoy the babies when they arrive.


Thanks Arreau. Yes, I have been on the OFA site and was going to be getting the swabs for all of our dogs for VWD and NE, $65 each but worth it to know all is ok!! So, have placed the order to do Taffy for both and Billy for VWD. (thanks for the info on the NE, saves us $65 for Billy  ) When I raised Dobies years back VWD was one of the tests I did for them, but was done at the vets, of course. 

If and when any pups are born, you all will be informed and pics shared. Hopefully it will be one or just two pups, that's the best thing we can hope for now. The less stress on such a young girl, the better. 

Our vet office has no vets qualified to do the eye cerf... so Monday I am going to have to call around at the other vet clinics to see if there is a qualified vet to do it for us. Was hoping to find it at one of the shows this summer to get them done but can't wait till then for Billy and Taffy now. And, will ask to make sure it is ok to do Taffy in her condition. If we have to, we can wait till after the pup(s) born... but I can't see how drops in the eyes should harm them.

We would have had Billy, Grace and Taffy's CGC, well, at least we hoped they all would have passed, but that was at a show that we had already had them entered in that happened to be the week our Mom passed away, so we missed the show and the CGC testing. Hopefully one of our next shows will be sponsoring the CGC again.


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## bigpoodleperson

Why Not do an ultrasound? If it was me, i would want to know that she was infact pregnant (i think you cant ultrasound until a certain number of weeks though, and for the life of me i cant remember the number). Even if all the signs pointed to it i would want to be 100%. She still may have a false pregnancy, or she might absorb the puppies and you wouldnt know if she had ever had them in the first place. 

Also, if she is in fact Not pregnant then you dont have to rush on the tests and spend the money now. Im glad your going to registure the litter.


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## BFF

I agree in their decision not to do the ultrasound and just take the best care of Taffy in her current state. Time will tell soon enough. 

Deb and Dianne, everyone makes mistakes. It takes a stronger person to admit it. I think you both are handling this in a most honorable way. I appreciate that you let us know, especially thinking that you were risking your friendships by doing so. It gives us all the opportunity to learn and gain further understanding on what to do and what not to do. This is why I enjoy reading the forum so much. 

I have learned a great deal about poodles and how to care for my beloved one even better. Anytime, one of us makes a mistake or has to learn a lesson through tough experience, I hope they will take the time to share their experience and hopefully, spare the rest of us from the same misfortune.

Since I only have one dog, I wanted Zulee to get some interaction and be more socialized. I took her to a dog park after she was vaccinated. While I was there, it dawned on me she isn't spayed. :shock: I scooped her up and away we went. I never intend to have puppies. I just remember the horror of a thought that I promised my breeder she wouldn't get pregnant before she was spayed. Thankfully, nothing happened. I'm sure she was too young anyway, but really a very similar experience.

Do keep us updated on Miss Taffy. She is so beautiful, and Billy is absolutely stunning. I think they will have some beautiful pups. I do hope you register them. As a pet owner, I wanted AKC registration. It's extra proof of ownership and gives me the option of participating in agility, rally, ect. I also have to admit that I wanted proof that she really was a purebreed poodle. I know now that registration doesn't really do that like it should, but it settles my mind in a warm fuzzy way.


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## bigpoodleperson

I agree that there is nothing you can do anyways, but i think an ultrasound is another benafecial test to have done for many reasons then just counting puppies. It wont hurt her in the least (its just sound waves as apose to radiation), or the puppies. I know you guys will take wonderful care of them no matter what though. A pregnancy ultrasound is generally pretty "cheap".


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## thestars

Good link on Ultrasound and Canine Pregnancy Diagnosis;
http://www.vetmed.lsu.edu/eiltslotus/Theriogenology-5361/ultrasound.htm


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## cowpony

Well, look at the bright side.

The pups will be purebred poodles. I'm glad you are leaning towards registering them. Someone I know had an Am Staff get together with a Flat Coated Retriever. Can you imagine the fun of trying to place a litter of coal black half pibbles?

The pups come from two different lines. Someone else I know had an adolescent back yard quality golden retriever chew through a door and impregnate his sister. Yuck.

The stork, should it pay you a visit, will be bringing puppies instead of grandchildren. You aren't going to be driving this mistake to soccer practice and worrying about saving for college tuition twelve years from now.

It could always be worse. 

Seriously, I really do hope you register them. Even though you didn't intend for this breeding to happen, it's still genetic data.


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## cuddleparty

OMG! Spoospirit! I can't believe you! You totally neglected your responsibility and you LET that poor Taffy get pregnant. That was completely irresponsible.. you are such a complete failure, and I cannot foresee anyone leaving their pet with you in your care for the future. UNBELIEVABLE!!!! And YOU ARE a moderator on here?! Guess it's quitting time for you!!:yell:

Spoospirit - of course I do not mean any of that above.. but is that the sort of response that you wanted to hear? Berating yourself, or "coming clean" on the forum so that others will criticize you for what nature had intended is not going to change the situation. It's done. Puppies get made.. on purpose, by accident, by nature... all the time. I'm sure you probably still feel sick and terrible about what had happened, extreme guilt, upset, and negligence.. but it's ok to move forward and see it as a "whoops!". Taffy will get over it and have adorable puppies, and Diane I'm sure will find it in her heart to forgive you. We can't dwell on unfortunate incidents for the rest of our lives.. especially over something that is a natural course of life 

So on the flip side, enjoy the pregnancy and make the best of it. At least everyone is still in good health reggers:


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## spoospirit

cuddleparty said:


> Spoospirit - of course I do not mean any of that above.. but is that the sort of response that you wanted to hear?



_You actually made me laugh! 

To be honest with you, I did not know what to expect and in the end, it didn't matter which way people went. What was important was that I be upfront and honest about the accident. I surely didn't WANT to hear that but was nervous that there would be some who would feel that way and give me a good tongue lashing. I can't express enough our gratitude to our forum family for all of the support and for advice offered for us to contemplate as we make our way through this time with Taffy.

Speaking of being moderator, that is one of the reasons I was worried about what the reaction of the members was going to be. But, then, being able to monitor threads and posts for proper content and monitoring my first ever heat are two completely different worlds. I would rather jump into the middle of the fray of a thread gone bad than make this mistake again. But we have that covered now as Taffy will not be home during her heats anymore and it won't happen again.

I created Excel sheets last night for breeding and whelping purposes then spent some time discussing with Dianne what I need to put in for supplies, when to increase her food intake, etc. So, now I am beginning to feel like a grandma preparing for her grandchild(ren) to arrive. _


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Though these are not perfect circumstances, Taffy will fare very well, and omg....when you see those little ones, all of this crap you are feeling right now will disappear and you will just wallow in having them for the short eight weeks they'll be with you. There is nothing like it. My attitude when there are puppies here is "what is a TV??" I spend all of my time with them just soaking up every second, then bawl my eyes out as they leave me. You are going to love it.


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## jester's mom

cuddleparty said:


> Taffy will get over it and have adorable puppies, and Diane I'm sure will find it in her heart to forgive you. We can't dwell on unfortunate incidents for the rest of our lives.. especially over something that is a natural course of life


NO, I WILL NOT!!! My heart is set and hardened! Well, Ok, I guess so. I already spanked her with a wet noodle so she got her lickings for it! 

Seriously, I know my sister well, I knew when she IM'd me that she was distraught and upset with herself. I was not happy at all when I read her IM, but I had to calm HER down. As you said, I said to her at the time, what is done is done, we can't redo it so we will do what we have to. I hope you seriously do not think I am mad at my sister! Life was crazy at that time and in hindsight, I wish I had taken Taffy to my house, but, with everything going on, my husband was left taking care of my 4 dogs/2 cats/pig/chickens... I didn't think it fair to thrust another dog on him that didn't know our house routines. Hindsight, the best sight!! Should have done it!

So, we go forward. And, yes, we did fully expect some people may well be upset with us and were bracing for it, but it is not our style to lie or hide things, so what is, is, and the pup(s) will be well cared for as is all of our dogs. We are going to be VERY picky about homes and have a list of questions that a potential new owner will have to answer and they are going to have to give us the name of their vet so we can call the vet for reference before they can even come up and look at the pups!!!! The home they go to has to be as good as or better than the home our dogs are given! 

Thanks again all for your support. We are looking into getting an xray just before her due date to see what she has so we can be prepared. When we know, you will know!


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## littlestitches

Best of luck with whatever the outcome of the tryst ends up to be.

P


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## Mandycasey'smom

So do you know for a fact she took? What day is she do if she took?
Without xray there is now way to know 100 percent.
**** happens and we deal right but lets hope if it happens to someone else wether it be old timer on board or new comer that we have the same positive attitude


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## spoospirit

Mandycasey'smom said:


> So do you know for a fact she took? What day is she do if she took?
> Without xray there is now way to know 100 percent.
> **** happens and we deal right but lets hope if it happens to someone else wether it be old timer on board or new comer that we have the same positive attitude


_That is a great statement you made there Mandy. Kudos to you! Thank you.

It happened on December 1st. She has all of the signs of pregnancy and is getting a bit of a pot belly now, teats are filling, and vulva enlarged. Her due date would be February 2nd. We will wait until the end of this month to have her x-rayed so that we know how many and what size to be expecting. We are not 100% sure as our previous posts have stated. But we have decided that rather than do x-rays now (which we feel is not a good thing anyway) we are going to put the money into their testing._


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## Poodlepal

Spoo, I am very late getting to this thread. I have had some health issues lately *poor me*:smow:. That's what happens when you turn into an old crusty broad. 

This happens to the VERY best of the breeders out there from time to time. Most don't even sweat it because they KNOW the dogs they had picked out to keep, show and breed ARE breed standard and WILL finish *IF they choose to finish both of them*. Most will hurry up and finish them after the litters are born just to keep the nay sayers from bringing it up later :wacko:

*zipping up flame resistant suit* I am *pleasantly* surprised by the posts you have gotten back. Dare I say that had this been admitted by others on this forum, the response would have been devastating to those people no matter what their past history or experience. :doh:


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## Olie

Mandycasey'smom said:


> So do you know for a fact she took? What day is she do if she took?
> Without xray there is now way to know 100 percent.
> **** happens and we deal right but lets hope if it happens to someone else wether it be old timer on board or new comer that we have the same positive attitude


I agree


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## bigredpoodle

Welcome back poodlepal....I think I have to agreewith your statement 
"Dare I say that had this been admitted by others on this forum, the response would have been devastating to those people no matter what their past history or experience. " I have been the brunt of this myself


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## spoospirit

Poodlepal said:


> Spoo, I am very late getting to this thread. I have had some health issues lately *poor me*:smow:. That's what happens when you turn into an old crusty broad.
> 
> This happens to the VERY best of the breeders out there from time to time. Most don't even sweat it because they KNOW the dogs they had picked out to keep, show and breed ARE breed standard and WILL finish *IF they choose to finish both of them*. Most will hurry up and finish them after the litters are born just to keep the nay sayers from bringing it up later :wacko:
> 
> *zipping up flame resistant suit* I am *pleasantly* surprised by the posts you have gotten back. Dare I say that had this been admitted by others on this forum, the response would have been devastating to those people no matter what their past history or experience. :doh:



_Nice to hear from you again, Poodle Pal. I am sorry to hear that you have not bee well. I hope that things are better for you now. Dianne and I are both over 50 so we know all about the new health problems that come to visist. ....sigh. 

Thank you for your support and honest statement. And, I believe that you are correct that if this had happen to anther member on the forum, the resulting posts could have been much different. I would like to think that his has been a positive lesson for all of us on how a community can pull together for the good of all rather tear each other down. There is always a silver lining in every unfortunate event. We just have to look for it.

We are, of course, going to get as much testing done as possible right now. But we will continue with our showing program as planned for Billy and then continue with Taffy when she is ready for the ring again. I see no point in 'rushing' a dog through to a title to try to avoid bad press. It is what it is and no matter how quickly our dogs finish, it will never change the fact that Taffy was bred at a young age. This will be public information for anyone to see when the litter is registered and appears on the web site. 

Take care of yourself and I'm looking forward to seeing more posts from you!
_


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## Harley_chik

I have to say I'm a bit insulted that everyone expected the worse. A couple of the comments even seemed catty to me. (I don't mean you at all, Spoo Spirit or Jester's mom.) I think this a good and compassionate community for the most part.

I have posted on this situation yet, b/c honestly I can't think of anything positive to say that hasn't already been said. I lost my grandmother, who I was very close too, a while back and providing the basic care for my pets was about all I was capable of doing. Even making a trip to the grocery store was a huge chore. I didn't feel like getting dressed, putting on make up, fixing my hair. I dreaded running into someone who would ask where I'd been or how I was dealing w/ the loss. Seeing an older woman who looked anything like my grandmother would bring on tears. My pets were what kept me going. I can completely understand something like this happening, while dealing with the failing health and death of a loved one. Shortly after her death, one of my cats went missing. My mind wasn't right, there were people in and out of the house and I just figured Sushi was hiding. (He was never a social cat and often the only time I would see him would be when he came out to eat in the middle of the night.) I was never able to find him and my best guess is he slipped out the door. I felt terribly guilty about it and couldn't believe I didn't even know exactly when he went missing.


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## spoospirit

Harley_chik said:


> I have to say I'm a bit insulted that everyone expected the worse. A couple of the comments even seemed catty to me. (I don't mean you at all, Spoo Spirit or Jester's mom.) I think this a good and compassionate community for the most part.
> 
> I have posted on this situation yet, b/c honestly I can't think of anything positive to say that hasn't already been said. I lost my grandmother, who I was very close too, a while back and providing the basic care for my pets was about all I was capable of doing. Even making a trip to the grocery store was a huge chore. I didn't feel like getting dressed, putting on make up, fixing my hair. I dreaded running into someone who would ask where I'd been or how I was dealing w/ the loss. Seeing an older woman who looked anything like my grandmother would bring on tears. My pets were what kept me going. I can completely understand something like this happening, while dealing with the failing health and death of a loved one. Shortly after her death, one of my cats went missing. My mind wasn't right, there were people in and out of the house and I just figured Sushi was hiding. (He was never a social cat and often the only time I would see him would be when he came out to eat in the middle of the night.) I was never able to find him and my best guess is he slipped out the door. I felt terribly guilty about it and couldn't believe I didn't even know exactly when he went missing.


_WOW, Harley!! That must have been really awful for you. What a heartbreak. Having had a similar experience has made you able to be empathetic to others going through the same thing. It has its good side....it has made you compassionate toward others. I hope you have forgiven yourself for this loss.

Your grandmother must have been quite a woman to be so cherished and loved._


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## aki

I'm also a bit late coming into this thread! Its so hard to find time to get on the forums these days, I seem to miss out on a lot.

It is completely admirable that you came onto the forum and shared this with us. I wouldn't have blamed you if you hadn't revealed this, but you did, and that is incredibly honest. I think that speaks volumes of the type of person you are. This was definitely not your fault. You're human and make mistakes, but you can learn from this and how to avoid accidents in the future.

If Taffy is indeed pregnant, I hope everything goes smoothly with the pregnancy and birth.


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## spoospirit

_Well, we have an appointment Friday morning to have Taffy x-rayed. The vet assured us that it will be safe and that it is very common to have expectant moms x-rayed at this point. So, we will have news for you one way or the other by the afternoon.
_


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## wishpoo

Ughhhh... Good luck tomorrow  !!!! I would be nervous too about x-rays :rolffleyes: I guess, if organogenesis is over, it is pretty safe *sigh. Why do you think it is necessary though - just wondering...


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## flyingduster

Ohhh, good luck!! I can understand why, the not being 100% sure either way would about kill me!!!!


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## cbrand

spoospirit said:


> _Well, we have an appointment Friday morning to have Taffy x-rayed. The vet assured us that it will be safe and that it is very common to have expectant moms x-rayed at this point. So, we will have news for you one way or the other by the afternoon.
> _


Xrayed!?!! NO NO NO. You will do serious harm to the puppies if you XRAY mom at day 37 of pregnancy. DO NOT LET HIM XRAY YOUR BITCH! Xrays are typically done around day 60 (out of a normal 63 day gestation). Even then, I'm not one to advocate xraying. I can't help but wonder if the increase we see in cancer at a young age isn't due to the fact that so many breeders are routinely xraying their bitches.

Now, if he is talking about ULTRASOUND, you are too late. The puppies at this point are too big and you won't be able to tell how many are in there.


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## bigredpoodle

cbrand said:


> Xrayed!?!! NO NO NO. You will do serious harm to the puppies if you XRAY mom at day 37 of pregnancy. DO NOT LET HIM XRAY YOUR BITCH! Xrays are typically done around day 60 (out of a normal 63 day gestation). Even then, I'm not one to advocate xraying. I can't help but wonder if the increase we see in cancer at a young age isn't due to the fact that so many breeders are routinely xraying their bitches.
> 
> Now, if he is talking about ULTRASOUND, you are too late. The puppies at this point are too big and you won't be able to tell how many are in there.


I agree 100% It is what it is ..


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## wishpoo

I think that effects of radiation are really downplayed in the USA both regarding humans and animals :smow:


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## Winnow

but if you go for a ultrasound they can tell you if she is pregnant or not


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## jester's mom

cbrand said:


> Xrayed!?!! NO NO NO. You will do serious harm to the puppies if you XRAY mom at day 37 of pregnancy. DO NOT LET HIM XRAY YOUR BITCH! Xrays are typically done around day 60 (out of a normal 63 day gestation). Even then, I'm not one to advocate xraying. I can't help but wonder if the increase we see in cancer at a young age isn't due to the fact that so many breeders are routinely xraying their bitches.
> 
> Now, if he is talking about ULTRASOUND, you are too late. The puppies at this point are too big and you won't be able to tell how many are in there.


Well, I called the vet a couple days ago to get scheduled for some of the testing for Billy and spoke to them about making an appointment to have Taffy xray done on her 59th day and she said we could get it done now. I said that I had thought that it was not safe at this point but she said that they do it all the time and there is no problems. So, I agreed figuring they knew what they are talking about. 

So, I decided to do a good search on the pros and cons of doing this on the web... and decided that we will NOT be doing it. I had not wanted to do it at the beginning but when the vet said it was ok, no problems for it, I thought, ok, let's do it and see where we are at.

For anyone that would like to read some info I found on this issue... this is one of what I found on the cons and have to agree 100% with it. 
BTW.. thanks Cbrand for bringing us back to where we started... no xray. I almost let the vet talk me into it... thanks!

here is the info:
As for my opinion on xraying pregnant bitches, I'll make my observations based on my career as a radiographer.

First and foremost. You would never ever xray someone who didnt need an xray. You would never ever ever xray a PRGNANT WOMAN, Unless, She is very very sick. If in the case of you needing to do an xray on the pregnant woman you would cover her with a lead shield to protect the growing baby. I feel very uncomfortable xraying women who are under 3 months pregnant as this is when the baby's cells are dividing the quickest and hence are the most suseptable to radiation. However if the patient really does need the xray then you would go ahead and do it. Many many years ago women (and some of you may remember this) used to have xrays done to show the position of their baby in the womb. This practice has now been canned. And is considered to be a risk to take - doctors dont like being sued. Hence Ultrasound (US) has taken over.

Now going back to the pregnant bitches. You would need to assess the NEED for the xray. If like in pointers there is no NEED that I can possibly think of to xray the bitch, why on earth would you put your bitch in that situation? Just because you cant wait the few days before she whelps? Sounds like your being a little over excited. She will have the puppies regardless, and you have the oxcytocyn injection regardless on the completion of whelping. Which will help expell any puppies still inside (if that is the case).

The technology that vets have is so far behind the ball as far as the technology used in hospitals. The xray tubes are so ancient you could call them antiques.

The cost of the xray isnt cheap ranging from $100 to $200, and like someone said they can still miss puppies. However sadly US is also expensive and like someone said the expertise in seeing exactly how many puppies are inside needs a very good operator. Most vets dont have US machines and dont have the experience nesessary. Its very difficult to count the little ones as they do move around a lot in there!! Hello, even that lady in the United states was only expected to have 7 babies!! And out came 8! Does this tell you something everyone?? In my opinion US is great at confirming an ongoing pregnancy, but pretty much you can count it out for exact numbers. Sonographers who have been in the field 40 years can miss things...

I will never xray one of my bitches. Its completely unnessery in our breed. I can understand those people who have trouble with bitches having puppies too big to fit through the birth canal. That is understandable. But once again - think - does my breed really need this?? Or am I just needing to know ahead of time how many there will be. Heres another question for yourself. If I didnt need an xray while I was pregnant would I go and try to seek one out??

And to the question about radiation safety. There is little research done on exactly how much is safe in people because people arent stupid enough to put their pregant bellies out and have xrays in the name of a study. (I'd also like to see the ethics compitee that aproves this one!) Radiation is most harmful to cells which are dividing as it stuffs up the dividing DNA in the cells (basically causing errors) which can ultimatly lead to things like cancer. Yes there is radiation all around us, but there is a basic principle in radiography - ALARA AS LOW AS REASONABLY ACHIEVEABLE. Simple - if you dont need it, dont have it!! You will never know how much dose you need to give to cause cancer. Each person/puppy is different.

So theres some more food for thought. Hope you may have learned something! Still everyone do what makes you happy and you know your breed best and problems you could encounter...


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## wishpoo

I am so glad you decided against x-ray : )) !!! I did some research on the net too and just was about to "paste" the info here when I discovered your newest post - so yeaaaaayyyy : )))) !!!! It is always better to be on the safe side


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## cbrand

Phew! I'm glad you didn't Xray her. This is an example of how owners need to be educated advocates for their Poodles. Vets really don't know as much as we all hope they do.

I will say that xrays have their place and purpose. With my last litter Gracy did not progress to active pushing and I took her in to see if a puppy was stuck. It wasn't at that point but the next day we had green discharge and a 2nd xray showed a puppy stuck in the birth canal. Xrays helped us to decide to do an emergency C-section and all 6 puppies lived.

In hindsight, Gracy's issue was probably uterine inertia. It was one of the reasons we did not breed her again.


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## jester's mom

I called the vet to tell them we were canceling our appointment. She asked why and I told her that many said it was unsafe and I read on-line how unsafe it was. She was not the same front desk lady I spoke to the other day, she said she would look up the info... then she said, it is not an x-ray she is scheduled for but an ultrasound. I said, OH, the lady told me an x-ray (I wrote down the info as she gave it to me), she said, no, it is an ultrasound. So, Taffy is going and we will let you know the outcome.


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## spoospirit

cbrand said:


> Phew! I'm glad you didn't Xray her. This is an example of how owners need to be educated advocates for their Poodles. Vets really don't know as much as we all hope they do.
> 
> I will say that xrays have their place and purpose. With my last litter Gracy did not progress to active pushing and I took her in to see if a puppy was stuck. It wasn't at that point but the next day we had green discharge and a 2nd xray showed a puppy stuck in the birth canal. Xrays helped us to decide to do an emergency C-section and all 6 puppies lived.
> 
> In hindsight, Gracy's issue was probably uterine inertia. It was one of the reasons we did not breed her again.


_Cbrand...you nearly gave me a heart attack!!! LOL Thank you for jumping in there so forcefully and giving me a good scare. We do not want to do anything to harm our precious Taffy or her possible pups. Whew! That was quite the piece Dianne found on the dangers of x-raying. That certainly put that debate to bed for us!! And thank you to the others who were concerned as well. You caused us to do research that proved out your point._


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## cbrand

Ultrasounds are notoriously inaccurate. Gracy's showed 4 puppies and she ended up having 6. I would just wait. Why spend the extra money.


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## KPoos

I think they are wanting to know if she's pregnant or not. 

Just out of curiousity, why are ultrasounds so unpredicable in dogs yet so helpful in humans? Is it the machines they use for dogs? The ultrasound can detect twins easily in the human but is due to the differences in the physiology of humans and dogs?


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## spoospirit

KPoos said:


> I think they are wanting to know if she's pregnant or not.
> 
> Just out of curiousity, why are ultrasounds so unpredicable in dogs yet so helpful in humans? Is it the machines they use for dogs? The ultrasound can detect twins easily in the human but is due to the differences in the physiology of humans and dogs?


_Basically, yes. We want to be sure that she is pregnant.

I believe that when pups hide behind each other in the womb, it is difficult to pick them up on the ultrasound. We aren't looking for a number; just confirmation that she is actually pregnant before we push to get all of the tests done immediately. _


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## bunni

Spoospirit you poor thing. I know exactly how you feel and I know that feeling of being sick when you saw what was happening and you desperately want to go back in time just a few minutes. Your mind keeps yelling "how could I let that happen?" and you apologize to your dogs 50 times. Obviously you can tell I had this happen to me too. In hindsight I can say that the one mistake probably prevented many others because I became much much more careful. With the little poodles we use baby onesies (with a hole cut for the tail) and disposable diapers underneath if needed. I started doing that because they could get out of the pants made for dogs in about 30 seconds. By using onesies on both the male and female we have double coverage, and sometimes we've needed it. I'm not sure if you could find similar clothes for the big dogs or not. The important thing is forgive yourself and take it as a lesson.


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## cash

spoospirit said:


> _Basically, yes. We want to be sure that she is pregnant.
> 
> I believe that when pups hide behind each other in the womb, it is difficult to pick them up on the ultrasound. We aren't looking for a number; just confirmation that she is actually pregnant before we push to get all of the tests done immediately. _


I can understand you wanting to know before going to all the extra expense right now to get all the testing done.

The one and only time I bred my ch. belgian sheepdog bitch I was fortunate to be very close to Iowa State University Vet School. The charged me $30.00 and located 3 puppies. She ended up whelping 5 healthy puppies. 

I wish you the best for Taffy and look forward to hearing what you find out!


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## jester's mom

cbrand said:


> Ultrasounds are notoriously inaccurate. Gracy's showed 4 puppies and she ended up having 6. I would just wait. Why spend the extra money.


Well, we were planning on just waiting, but under the circumstances... of her age; of not having had any plans for breeding for at least another year so having no whelping box made or anything like puppy milk on hand in case it is needed; etc, we decided we would like to know if she is indeed pregnant. The quantity is not an issue at all. This way, if it is found that she is not pregnant, we won't be wasting time building a whelping box for her and worrying about her. If she is, then we can make sure all is prepped in advance and we can relax knowing all is set up for her and know we need to keep an eye on her. I did not want to do e-rays right from the get go, but when the vet tech I was talking to the other day insisted that it would be ok, then I said ok.. but seeing as it was an ultrasound she was really talking about and it will not harm Taffy or pup(s) if any, then we will go for it. Deb and I feel it is worth the $100 to know and be prepared. 

I do understand where you are coming from. It is not normal that we would want to spend money that we really don't have to spend, as who wants to waist money! But, she is so young and it is so iffy to be sure (I have had a female go through a false pregnancy after three consecutive heat cycles until I spayed her), so, this time we feel it worth the money spent.

Thank you very much for your help and thoughts.


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## jester's mom

bunni said:


> Spoospirit you poor thing. I know exactly how you feel and I know that feeling of being sick when you saw what was happening and you desperately want to go back in time just a few minutes. Your mind keeps yelling "how could I let that happen?" and you apologize to your dogs 50 times. Obviously you can tell I had this happen to me too. In hindsight I can say that the one mistake probably prevented many others because I became much much more careful. With the little poodles we use baby onesies (with a hole cut for the tail) and disposable diapers underneath if needed. I started doing that because they could get out of the pants made for dogs in about 30 seconds. By using onesies on both the male and female we have double coverage, and sometimes we've needed it. I'm not sure if you could find similar clothes for the big dogs or not. The important thing is forgive yourself and take it as a lesson.


LOl.. yeah, we have bought the panties for the girls now. And the one I got is great, it stays on snug and it tight fitting without any sagging areas (like around the tail hole). But, Taffy will actually be coming to my house next heats, but they will still wear their panties for cleanliness in the house. Any breedings in the future will be PLANNED ones!


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## wishpoo

I think that ultrasound on dogs is more difficult to administer than on humans since uterus of a dog has 2 "horns" - it is shaped and an "Y" letter. There might be multiple pups in each long horn and maybe it is difficult to locate each of the pups :rolffleyes:. Just a guess :rolffleyes:

I was wondering if any blood test can confirm pregnancy - like progesterone levels :rolffleyes: ???


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## Purple Poodle

I would only have a pregnant dog X-rayed at the 56 day mark so you have a count of just how many puppies she needs to deliver.

We had a foster Chihuahua mix x-rayed and she had 5 very healthy puppies.

It put my mind at ease knowing how many to expect and that she was able to deliver the, her self. 

Anyway I am okay with having a dog x-rayed once to confirm size and count but only at the appropriate time and only once.


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## roxy25

With my cats I never x rayed or ultrasound just wait until they where born


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## Poodlepal

I thought they couldn't even see the pups clear enough if the bones aren't offified yet. Maybe I'm all wet.


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## Poodlepal

OSSIFIED.....is what I meant to type. See, I can't even type anymore maybe I am talking gibberish.


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## Harley_chik

wishpoo said:


> I think that ultrasound on dogs is more difficult to administer than on humans since uterus of a dog has 2 "horns" - it is shaped and an "Y" letter. There might be multiple pups in each long horn and maybe it is difficult to locate each of the pups :rolffleyes:. Just a guess :rolffleyes:
> 
> I was wondering if any blood test can confirm pregnancy - like progesterone levels :rolffleyes: ???


I was wondering the same thing about blood tests. Don't they have tests to check horomone levels for the optimal breeding time? Why wouldn't they have something similar for confirming a pregnancy? W/ all the great technology and medical advances they have, you'd think there'd be a pregnancy test for dogs.


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## spoospirit

Poodlepal said:


> OSSIFIED.....is what I meant to type. See, I can't even type anymore maybe I am talking gibberish.


_LOL..i seem to do that quite a bit lately. I have to go over everything I type or I might be putting something on that makes no sense even to me. I have not heard that. We were assured that they would be able to tell if there are puppies; just not how many._



Harley_chik said:


> I was wondering the same thing about blood tests. Don't they have tests to check horomone levels for the optimal breeding time? Why wouldn't they have something similar for confirming a pregnancy? W/ all the great technology and medical advances they have, you'd think there'd be a pregnancy test for dogs.


_You bring up a good point here Harley. I was not the one who spoke with the vet tech so I wouldn't know; but, since we are going tomorrow, this will be on my list of questions to ask; before they do the ultrasound. It would seem that this would be less expensive to have done than to do the ultrasound. 

It could just be a case of vet technology not being current with human health technology. But, I shall find out._


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## Poodlepal

Again, I could be all wrong here but I don't think any such test exists. And if there is one, as I recall....a baseline has to be established before it would be useful anyway.


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## wishpoo

*A review of a new exciting product !
*
Determining if your dog is pregnant or not can be somehow challenging, especially for the new owner or the inexperienced breeder. Many things need to be considered when trying to count the odds. Most likely if your dog was at her most fertile time of her heat (the estrus) and if a tie with the male was witnessed it is very likely she is pregnant.

The estrus phase therefore, is the crucial phase, it usually occurs between the 7th and 10th day after the bleeding has started. This is the time you will be looking for if you are hoping your dog is pregnant.

Early pregnancy signs may be hard to be detected especially by an inexperienced owner. Some dogs may become slightly inappetent in the first weeks just as women get morning sickness. A slight decrease of activity may also be seen as the bitch goes through all the hormonal changes. Nipple growth as well is an early sign, the nipples will appear slightly larger.

Your vet may palpate your dog's abdomen as early as 28 days post breeding. However, an ultrasound may be a more accurate test, actually this test may even help determine how many puppies your bitch is expecting.

*However, a relaxin pregnancy test can be available nowadays* to those owners eager to find out if the dog is pregnant or not. This test can be done as early as 20 days after the luteininzing hormonal surge.

The test requires a blood sample from your dog and this can be challenging for some owners. You must have a centrifuge to separate the plasma because the plasma needs to be tested.

If this is not an option you can have the vet take care of this part for you for a small fee. He can both draw the blood and have it spun for you. Once the plasma is obtained you can finish up the test yourself.

This kit is especially good for breeders since there are 5 tests in the kit. This test is also great for distinguishing real pregnancy from pseudo pregnancy. Results are fast, it only takes about 10 minutes.

The kit is available online for those who would like to test at home but if you do not have the equipment then you can have the test done totally at the vet's office.


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## Poodlepal

Why the heck don't vets know or have this?!!No one I know ever heard of it. Beat the heck out of waiting and guessing and paying all kinds of money for a sono or xray.


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## spoospirit

wishpoo said:


> *A review of a new exciting product !
> *
> Determining if your dog is pregnant or not can be somehow challenging, especially for the new owner or the inexperienced breeder. Many things need to be considered when trying to count the odds. Most likely if your dog was at her most fertile time of her heat (the estrus) and if a tie with the male was witnessed it is very likely she is pregnant.
> 
> The estrus phase therefore, is the crucial phase, it usually occurs between the 7th and 10th day after the bleeding has started. This is the time you will be looking for if you are hoping your dog is pregnant.
> 
> Early pregnancy signs may be hard to be detected especially by an inexperienced owner. Some dogs may become slightly inappetent in the first weeks just as women get morning sickness. A slight decrease of activity may also be seen as the bitch goes through all the hormonal changes. Nipple growth as well is an early sign, the nipples will appear slightly larger.
> 
> Your vet may palpate your dog's abdomen as early as 28 days post breeding. However, an ultrasound may be a more accurate test, actually this test may even help determine how many puppies your bitch is expecting.
> 
> *However, a relaxin pregnancy test can be available nowadays* to those owners eager to find out if the dog is pregnant or not. This test can be done as early as 20 days after the luteininzing hormonal surge.
> 
> The test requires a blood sample from your dog and this can be challenging for some owners. You must have a centrifuge to separate the plasma because the plasma needs to be tested.
> 
> If this is not an option you can have the vet take care of this part for you for a small fee. He can both draw the blood and have it spun for you. Once the plasma is obtained you can finish up the test yourself.
> 
> This kit is especially good for breeders since there are 5 tests in the kit. This test is also great for distinguishing real pregnancy from pseudo pregnancy. Results are fast, it only takes about 10 minutes.
> 
> The kit is available online for those who would like to test at home but if you do not have the equipment then you can have the test done totally at the vet's office.


_WhooHoo!! If this is indeed possible, it will be worth its weight in gold!!_


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## spoospirit

*New Thread....Taffy Ultrasound*

_We have our results. Please go to the new thread named Taffy Ultrasound.

This has been a great discussion on breeding and I so appreciate all of the input from everyone!! THANK YOU SO MUCH!_


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