# Opinions on Cesar Millan?



## Caniche

I am curious as to what opinions, if any, some/all of you have on Cesar Millan's approach to dog training and the tactics that he uses? I saw an episode last night while I was channel surfing and I'm curious as to what you all think.



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## hopetocurl

At a high level, I agree with some of his theories...but not necessarily his implementation of them.


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## lily cd re

I agree with some of his ideas and I also agree with some of Victoria Stilwell's stuff. I think the big problem with both of them is that there are surely lots of out-takes that people who watch those shows would never think were happening before or between the footage that actually makes it to the TV. For very novice dog trainers the instant results look of both shows is potentially dangerous in a number of ways. First, people will think they can imitate without understanding the rationale and do things wrong resulting in bad outcomes. Second, when people don't get instant results there will be frustration; either with themselves (resulting in giving up), or with the dog (resulting in a frustrated punishment of the dog).

Specifically I like that Cesar is honest enough to have shown that he has been bitten. Victoria has been bitten too, but has never shown that. Instead you get this silly attitude of "thank you for growling at me." I think this makes light of how serious a growl is as a warning to owners and trainers.


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## PoodleRick

op:


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## Chagall's mom

Caniche said:


> I am curious as to *what opinions, if any*, some/all of you have *on Cesar Millan's approach to dog training and the tactics *that he uses? I saw an episode last night while I was channel surfing and I'm curious as to what you all think.Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Care to share your own opinion? I'm not clowning around here,:clown: just interested!


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## Countryboy

I'm an atheist... not a Buddhist, Muslim or Christian.

But all 'faiths' have elements of truth. Study them, know them, and live your life by them. But don't completely dismiss one in favour of another. U might miss something.


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## lily cd re

Countryboy said:


> I'm an atheist... not a Buddhist, Muslim or Christian.
> 
> But all 'faiths' have elements of truth. Study them, know them, and live your life by them. But don't completely dismiss one in favour of another. U might miss something.


Good analogy Frank. I think it is unrealistic to truly be positive only or all about the dominance "myth." You _have to understand the science of how dogs think and learn_ and _then pick and choose your methods based on that_ *knowledge*. 

For example I think it is perfectly acceptable to give a correction (however you might define that short of hurting the dog) to a dog that knows what it is supposed to do but is blowing you off. On the other hand it absolutely is unfair to give an aversive correction to a learning dog that doesn't already have an understanding of what is expected. For example, when I was teaching Lily to retrieve the dumbbell, she was utterly noncompliant with delivering it in her mouth sitting at front. 100% of the time she would drop it between 6 and 8 feet out and then come to front "empty mouthed." She knew what she was supposed to do since I had tried shaping it with a throw and then a treat in hand to get the front, for many months (no progress) and had tried having her sit at front and giving her the dumbbell to hold, then having her stand a couple of feet away with the dumbbell and come to front (no progress). I finally did the dreaded ear pinch with a slip collar and had a 100% reliable and joyful retrieve in less than a week, as seen in the picture below. Before I pinched her ear I gave careful thought and asked others if they thought she knew what she was supposed to do, and I did a demo of what it would feel like on myself by pinching the web between my thumb and index finger (way harder than I ever did to her BTW).


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## Poodlebeguiled

lily cd re said:


> Good analogy Frank. I think it is unrealistic to truly be positive only or all about the dominance "myth." You _have to understand the science of how dogs think and learn_ and _then pick and choose your methods based on that_ *knowledge*.
> 
> For example I think it is perfectly* acceptable to give a correction (however you might define that short of hurting the dog) to a dog that knows what it is supposed to do but is blowing you off*. On the other hand it absolutely is unfair to give an aversive correction to a learning dog that doesn't already have an understanding of what is expected. For example, when I was teaching Lily to retrieve the dumbbell, she was utterly noncompliant with delivering it in her mouth sitting at front. 100% of the time she would drop it between 6 and 8 feet out and then come to front "empty mouthed." She knew what she was supposed to do since I had tried shaping it with a throw and then a treat in hand to get the front, for many months (no progress) and had tried having her sit at front and giving her the dumbbell to hold, then having her stand a couple of feet away with the dumbbell and come to front (no progress). I finally did the dreaded ear pinch with a slip collar and had a 100% reliable and joyful retrieve in less than a week, as seen in the picture below. Before I pinched her ear I gave careful thought and asked others if they thought she knew what she was supposed to do, and I did a demo of what it would feel like on myself by pinching the web between my thumb and index finger (way harder than I ever did to her BTW).


The problem with this is it's anthropomorphizing to think a dog "knows" but is "blowing you off." Here's why I say that: For humans, the way we operate is that we may know something and choose to blow it off, disobey, choose to be defiant. That takes a _certain type _of cognition. Dogs, on the other hand don't think that way, not likely, according to science. Dogs either have had a sufficient history of reinforcement to cause them to repeat a behavior reliably or they don't. If there is a competing motivator in the environment that is of higher value to them than what they have historically received for a given behavior, then they'll choose that over the wanted behavior. If it is more valuable to them to not do the wanted behavior than it is TO do it, then they won't do it. It's not because they're stubborn, blowing you off, or any other human trait projection. It's just the way they ARE. They're selfish, but innocently so. They do what works....*for them*. Not for you. They're animals. 

Even though the co-evolution we've experienced with them has made a most phenomenal relationship, they still operate by the laws of behavior. They don't do things because they love us, not intrinsically. They do things because it helps them to survive, thrive, reproduce and perpetuate the species. We humans need to get over the myth that dogs do everything they do because they love us....or _should_ do what we want because they love us. 

If a dog disobeys, he's not stubborn, he's not blowing you off. He needs more practice.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Oh, what do I think of Cesar Milan? You shouldn't have asked. lol.

I think he's a Hollywood schmoozola. He knows nothing about what he's seeing as far as body language. He does not understand animal behavior at all. His beliefs are unequivocally wrong as far as alpha schmalfa and pack theory. It's been proven. He subdues or stops behavior by bullying, intimidation, threats, pain, emotional and physical. He sees behaviors and labels their cause incorrectly. He has no education in animal behavior. His claim to fame is he grew up with dogs on his father's farm. When he floods dogs with the stimuli they're afraid of, they stop behaving. It's called learned helplessness. It is not stopping the underlying issue that's causing the behavior. They just stop for the time being. Later, most of the dogs he professes to rehabilitate explode and bite someone or whatever the behavior is he stopped with punishment. 

His whole "rehab" premise is based on scientifically disproven b.s. Real applied veterinary behaviorists and a whole host of other real experts have all stated their complete disagreement with his ways. 

Then people say, "but he's right about some things...dogs need more exercise." So what. Any trainer or somewhat savvy dog owner knows that.
If a salad is rotten throughout most of it, do you pick out a few good pieces of lettuce?


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## Countryboy

If Tonka is sniffing the ground, fifteen feet from me at the dog park... and I call him repeatedly... and he does nothing, not even looking at me... just carries on wandering and sniffing... then he's 'blowing me off'.

If he's closer he'll get a swat on the butt with my baseball cap. Just to get his attention. 

Maybe that's why rescue people are wary of me... and I of them.


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## N2Mischief

I have used his principles when approaching a scared dog that was staying at our kennel, in that I would try to just not look them in the eye, and sit down outside the gate, giving them my profile. Then I would just quietly sit there and toss treats occasionally. Eventually they have approached and I let them sniff me. I would do it throughout the day and often times I was eventually allowed to interact with the dog, and other times not, but I tried. I didn't really know what I was doing, but always felt sorry for the scared ones. If I noticed it was causing way more stress I just quietly walked away. 

I also agree that a dog feels our emotions when we are walking them, so I try to walk with confidence, knowing that I am a big chicken and nervous about other dogs. Don't know if I relay the emotions or not, but again I try.

I don't let my dogs go out the door unless the are given the "ok", but I always did this, even before cesar. When I come home I don't pet them until they are settled a bit, but again always did this.


As for the dominance thing, I used to buy into it some, but as I read this forum, it becomes less and less.


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## PoodlePaws

I cannot watch him. The few episodes I've seen he has hit the dogs. I don't agree with that especially while training. One episode evens dr me cry 


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## PoodleRick

PoodlePaws said:


> I cannot watch him. The few episodes I've seen he has hit the dogs.* I don't agree with that* especially while training. One episode evens dr me cry
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Me either. I've never hit my dogs or my kids. Sometimes you wanna throw them through the window, (kids, not the dog),  but I figure if you can't out smart kids and dogs you have no business having either.

Rick


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## Wild Kitten

lily cd re said:


> Specifically I like that Cesar is honest enough to have shown that he has been bitten. * Victoria has been bitten too, but has never shown that. * Instead you get this silly attitude of "thank you for growling at me." I think this makes light of how serious a growl is as a warning to owners and trainers.


Have you ever actually seen her get bitten? How can you be so sure? 

She has specifically stated in several interviews that she has NEVER been bitten..... I don't see why she or many other positive trainers who state that they have not been bitten would lie.... and frankly, watching her work with dogs, I believe her.

-------------------

Cesar is all about domination, I find most his methods are dangerous and inhumane..... and most if not all his explanation of behaviour is ridiculous, not based on any science.

No wonder he has been bitten so many times! He is asking for it with all the kicking of dogs and alpha rolls... and all other things he does. And then he is proud of it too which is ridiculous. 

He doesn't actually have any behaviour qualifications other than "I have grew up with dogs and lived with them all my life"... not some one people should listen to if they want a good relationship with their dogs. 

Anyone who is trying to copy his methods is asking for trouble, and the poor dogs will be the ones to pay the price when they are put down for biting.


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## N2Mischief

Please don't think I am defending Cesars methods, I am NOT! I just want to say I have watched many of his episodes and I have never seen him hit or kick a dog. Roll, yes, and I don't agree with it. I have seen him use his foot to tap the dog but what I saw wasn't close to a kick. As for hitting I never saw anything close. 

Again, I don't agree with almost all of his methods so I am not defending that.


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## Wild Kitten

N2Mischief said:


> I have used *his principles* when approaching a scared dog that was staying at our kennel, in that I would try to just not look them in the eye, and sit down outside the gate, giving them my profile. Then I would just quietly sit there and toss treats occasionally. Eventually they have approached and I let them sniff me. I would do it throughout the day and often times I was eventually allowed to interact with the dog, and other times not, but I tried. I didn't really know what I was doing, but always felt sorry for the scared ones. If I noticed it was causing way more stress I just quietly walked away.


These are not even "his" principles" Every single positive trainer will tell you to do the same thing.... this was not invented by Cesar 



N2Mischief said:


> Please don't think I am defending Cesars methods, I am NOT! I just want to say I have watched many of his episodes and I have never seen him hit or kick a dog. Roll, yes, and I don't agree with it. I have seen him use his foot to tap the dog but what I saw wasn't close to a kick. As for hitting I never saw anything close.
> 
> Again, I don't agree with almost all of his methods so I am not defending that.


Oh I have seen him hit a dog and kick too....... there are many episodes of his show, maybe we watched different ones.


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## N2Mischief

I did not say it was invented by Cesar, I said it was one of his principles.


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## Wild Kitten

Here is just a few of his kicks: 






he sneaks them in, most people don't even notice.


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## PammiPoodle

I used to LOVE Cesar! I had his first book, I was the "calm, assertive pack leader". I fully endorsed clicker-training, but only thought it was for "tricks" since a submissive and respectful dog would already do all the important stuff right (obedience, leash walking, good manners). Any issues in that area were a "dominance" problem and needed to be addressed "Cesar's Way". Gee, was I ever misled! I'm 100% force- and intimidation-free now and recognize that pack theory was a huge misunderstanding by us humans.

However, my personal feelings about Cesar? I still like him! I can't watch his show anymore, it really hurts me to see a dog frightened and bullied, and people being *taught* that it's okay!! Yes, he's got some good ideas, he knows how to not frighten a dog when he decides that's best, his timing is excellent for rewards or aversives, and his reading and use of body language is fast and effective, if still totally mislead. For instance, many fear and avoidance displays he considers dominance or insubordination, but he still sees it and knows how to not get bit (most of the time!). He's capable...sort of, and knowledgeable...sort of. I think he truly does love dogs. I imagine he's so entangled with his reputation and his followers that he feels he can't change his methods or theory now if he tried. I know he attempted suicide a few years back, and I can't help but wonder if the knowledge now of the negative impact he's had on millions of dogs' lives was part of his anguish. Of course, this is all my assumption that he's a good guy, genuinely loves dogs, and is smart enough to see that pack theory is wrong and reward based training is scientifically proven to be more effective. Maybe he's just a money-hungry, dog-hating dumbo! I just can't think that, though. He was my training idol when I was just starting out and I think his heart was in the right place then, so I hope it is now. But still, I can't watch or read anything from him anymore. It's true, he might have some great ideas, but I just can't stomach the mis-treated dogs anymore. There is no need, there is SO MUCH easily found, dog-friendly, and humane training info out there! A year or so ago I put about a dozen of my old books in a box for the salvation army, including Cesar's Way. Then I realized someone else was going to read it, so I took it out and put it in the garbage. I would LOVE to follow Cesar again if he ever crosses over!



lily cd re said:


> Specifically I like that Cesar is honest enough to have shown that he has been bitten. Victoria has been bitten too, but has never shown that. Instead you get this silly attitude of "thank you for growling at me." I think this makes light of how serious a growl is as a warning to owners and trainers.


I absolutely agree that he's honest, but I think Cesar shows himself getting bitten because he gets bit all the time!! Haha, at least, when I watched him that's what I saw. He physically assaults dogs, and he gets assaulted back, and he seems to accept that risk going in. It's his method, it portrays the image that he's "tough" and "won't back down", and a dog biting him only supports the idea that the dog-human relationship is adversarial. You have to put them in their place, or else! I imagine Victoria doesn't show bites because her show paints a much more sympathetic image for the dog (thank goodness!). I always assumed she got bit now and then because, that's what happens when you work primarily with dogs with behavior issues! But I suppose that much of her audience wouldn't make that assumption, as they're not dog pros. I'd be nice if she showed herself getting bitten and used it to educate the audience of what not to do. But really, I'd rather watch a "how-to" than a "here's-where-I-went-wrong"! : P **Edited to add that I just read *Wild Kitten*'s post that says Victoria has never been bitten. Go Vicky!!** 

*Poodlerick*, lol!!


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## N2Mischief

I still don't see kicking, I see more of a tap/shove. Again I don't agree with the method but I think calling it a kick is unfair.


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## Wild Kitten

And here is some hitting: 






And some more abuse: 






Most of the times when I watch his programs I am sick in the stomach, feel sorry for the poor dogs who's owners have willingly put them trough his treatment and even pay for it!!........ reminds me of those African parents who take their kids to the church and let the priest to do exorcism on them...... they don't know any better either, but that doesn't mean that it is not child abuse. 

After a few minutes, I just got to turn it off.... can't even watch it.


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## poolann

He may read a dog but chooses to ignore their clear language. He deserves every bite he gets for ignoring the messages

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## N2Mischief

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I not once saw a hit, a shove..yes, a hit....no. Once again, not methods I would use, but I think once again it is overboard to call it a hit.


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## Wild Kitten

N2Mischief said:


> I still don't see kicking, I see more of a tap/shove. Again I don't agree with the method but I think calling it a kick is unfair.


A tap? 

He sneaks them in so fast then even tries to tell the owner that "it was not hard" but trust me....... it is hard. 

It is a fast quick kick with his heal (which is pretty hard and has an edge) in to the most sensitive area of the dog's body in the abdomen...... and there is enough force to make several of the dogs in the video yelp....... if that is not kicking, I don't know what is!


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## PammiPoodle

N2Mischief said:


> I still don't see kicking, I see more of a tap/shove. Again I don't agree with the method but I think calling it a kick is unfair.


Maybe it's a bit of a semantics issue. It may not be "kicking" in a sense, but it's an unpleasant meeting of foot to dog. We can call it anything. It doesn't matter how much it hurts, it's an aversive used to subdue behavior. 

The other day I had a groom dog who planted his butt at my front door, facing the street and didn't want to turn and come in. Of course, his dad was standing in front of him, on the welcome mat, so the dog was facing and wanting to go towards dad. After a few seconds of the dog not turning around, Dad put his foot against the dog's throat and began to shove him backwards. Whoa! I reached to push his foot away and said "Please don't kick him!", to which the dad responded "Oh, I wasn't kicking him, I was just-" I cut him off and asked him to come inside, which prompted the dog to hop right up and follow dad in. Yea, maybe kicking wasn't the best word, but what else do you call it? "Please don't shove him with your foot!"?


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## N2Mischief

I see what he is doing, I did not miss anything. But when you use the words kick and hit, the picture most people would get in their mind is a true kick and a true hit. I just think there are better words to describe what he is doing. ONCE AGAIN, I do not agree with it, but if you want to argue against it, be fair, or your argument looses merit.


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## Wild Kitten

But if it hurts it is a true kick! 

Just because it is done with the back of his heal and not the front of his foot (like a football) makes no difference. 

The dogs yelp of pain when he does it. So how is it not a kick?


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## N2Mischief

Wow! I expressed my opinion as did you, I said we would need to agree to disagree. I disagree with your wording as well as the act. I gave my reasons, I will not argue with you anymore.


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## Wild Kitten

N2Mischief said:


> Wow! I expressed my opinion as did you, I said we would need to agree to disagree. I disagree with your wording as well as the act. I gave my reasons, I will not argue with you anymore.


Wow.... why are people so quick to blow off when I ask a question? 

It was not about opinions, you're entitled to yours as everyone else. 

As have mentioned a few times before, I am not a native English speaker...... so I was trying to clear that up

how is something that is done with a foot and causes pain not a kick? I just don't get it........ What would you call it? It certainly is not just a "tap"

Even the person who made the video called them kicks


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## Wild Kitten

Wild Kitten said:


> Here is just a few of his kicks:
> 
> Cesar kicking dogs (Abuse).mp4 - YouTube
> 
> he sneaks them in, most people don't even notice.


So if we only call a kick with a front of your foot a kick... you will get several of those in this video too.. if you watch the entire video you will see them: 

At 1:55 there is a real kick with a dog yelping of pain too... 
another one of the "real kicks" at 3:50 (not the the rest is not real and painful) 
another one at 4:50
and 5:55


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## N2Mischief

In this and in other threads Wild Kitten, you express your opinion which is fine, but if anyone differs with your opinion you won't let it go, you just keep it up and keep it up and wear people down, you are exhausting! This is why people blow you off. I am not trying to be mean but you really just don't know when enough is enough, and it is often over very trivial issues, in this case, like Pammipoodle said, over semantics. I call it a shove, you call it a kick...let it go!


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## PoodleRick

Ok he's not kicking a field goal, (corner kick for the Euro's) but if he did what I saw on those videos to my kid or your kid I wonder what the reaction would be from those who don't think he's kicking or hitting.

Rick


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## N2Mischief

Rick, I agree, if he did that to MY dog, let alone my kid or grandkid, I would probably do a lot more than kick him!


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## PoodleRick

Right, he's not knocking the crap out of them but it's way over the line with how I treat my schmoopy. 

Rick


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## Countryboy

I had an unfortunate day almost a year ago with two appointments back-to-back. So I wound up walking into the groomers with Tonka on a leash. But my other hand was holding surgical dressing to my mouth to avoid dripping blood on the floor. Needless to say, I couldn't talk.

I had to drop the leash to reach down the the same hand to undo the clip. Other dogs around, he was leaping and dancing and spinning, 'til he got the side of my foot. He stood stock still immediately. 

Dogs will yelp when they're simply startled...


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## Carley's Mom

Put me down for the same thing that Cowboy said. Me too CB !


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## Tryin

I had never seen an episode with cesar milan prior to yesterday. My first video was "cesar's worst bite" on youtube . i was immediately disgusted by the way he would throat punch the "poor" dog at 6:38. I'm not on the dog's side here, because she was extremely aggressive even with her owners. but that was my first experience with cesar. the dog hadn't done anything to warrant a hit at that point (i know very little about dog training, but she had just met cesar at that point).

i don't know how anyone could say he doesn't hit or kick the dogs. I couldn't stand there as the owner either and allow him to do that to my dog.


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## Wild Kitten

Tryin said:


> I had never seen an episode with cesar milan prior to yesterday. My first video was "cesar's worst bite" on youtube . i was immediately disgusted by the way he would throat punch the "poor" dog at 6:38. *I'm not on the dog's side here, because she was extremely aggressive even with her owners.* but that was my first experience with cesar. the dog hadn't done anything to warrant a hit at that punch (i know very little about dog training, but she had just met cesar at that point).
> 
> i don't know how anyone could say he doesn't hit or kick the dogs. I couldn't stand there as the owner either and allow him to do that to my dog.


I am actually on this dog's side. Yes she was aggressive with her owner but she was not initially (wasn't aggressive when they got her), they brought it on by constantly trying to take away her food while she was eating and making her totally insecure in their presence..... they caused her aggression by installing fear into her. 

I felt really sorry for this poor dog and what she had to go through and probably still going through since the owners at the end did give her up and he took her in... I hope those owners never get another dog.


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## lily cd re

Poodlebeguiled, you are correct, my language was anthropomorphic. It is not my nature to think that way, but I also didn't want to sound condescending to anyone. I have a Ph.D. in Immunology, Microbiology and Pathology from an Ivy League University and 26 years of teaching biological sciences to undergraduates in addition to work with my own and other people's dogs. Sometimes when I write here I look at my posts later on and think I sound like I am talking down to people. Please substitute the term "thoroughly proofed" for "knows what it is supposed to do" for my description of what the dog knows. I still think that well proofed dogs occasionally decide to "blow us off" when they know very well what we are expecting and I don't think correcting that is unwarranted.

VS has filmed at a number of places in my area, although I wasn't there at the time, people I know saw her get bitten. I wouldn't say anything I didn't think was reliable. Why would my friends lie about a "celebrity" that they had had the chance to meet? This is, of course a matter of "he said/she said" until someone rolls out the out takes on YouTube. We can all choose to believe what we want. I still stand by my perspective that Victoria making people think they should thank their dogs at growling is silly (and potentially dangerous since I think it diminishes peoples' understanding of what growling means), just as much as I think Cesar doing an alpha roll on a dog and not showing the outtakes or wearing the bite mark of a badge of honor dangerously leads people to believe that they can (or should even try) to replicate that technique with their own dog. As to the credentials, I think we all know that there are plenty of people with tons of excellent experience and who are fabulous trainers that don't have credentials.  For myself, my graduate education gave me the opportunity to teach, but it isn't what made me a multiple times award winning teacher. The experience of doing the teaching did that.

Wild Kitten, as to why people are "quick to blow you off" it isn't what you say, but how you choose your words. You have arrived like a hurricane and stirred up bad reactions in many threads. I am actually always happy to see new members who plunge into the many topics we discuss here. They bring a fresh eye to the discussions and help those of us who have settled into comfort with each other's view reevaluate those views and why we have them. I am not saying that you shouldn't express your opinion, nor do I think that people are quick to dismiss you simply because you are new. I do, however, think that your tone is often imperious and unpleasant (as others reading mine now may be finding me to be). 

PF is not really going to be helpful people to people who have problems if all points of view aren't thoroughly hashed through, but we can be polite, encouraging and considerate of how we say what we say to each other. There is a lot about the internet that is awesome, but the anonymity of and instantaneous nature of this form of communication makes it easy to be careless about how our words will be perceived.


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## Wild Kitten

lily cd re said:


> VS has filmed at a number of places in my area, although I wasn't there at the time, people I know saw her get bitten. I wouldn't say anything I didn't think was reliable. Why would my friends lie about a "celebrity" that they had had the chance to meet?


Well that's why I asked you how do you know... 

I have never met her, I can only go by what she says, of course if I was in your place I would believe my friends over a celebrity...... 

That being said, how bad was the bite? Did she bleed? 

Maybe people's perception of being bitten is different the same way as our perception of a "kick" - which was just discussed a bit earlier in this topic  
Maybe she considers being bitten when the bite actually bleeds and not just the dog bit and get her but it was not bleeding sort of thing. 

Obviously that's just speculations..... I got no proof either way, I just never had a reason to think that she was lying when she stated in several interviews and also in a live webinar I attended that she was never bitten.



lily cd re said:


> Wild Kitten, as to why people are "quick to blow you off" it isn't what you say, but how you choose your words. You have arrived like a hurricane and stirred up bad reactions in many threads. I am actually always happy to see new members who plunge into the many topics we discuss here. They bring a fresh eye to the discussions and help those of us who have settled into comfort with each other's view reevaluate those views and why we have them. I am not saying that you shouldn't express your opinion, nor do I think that people are quick to dismiss you simply because you are new. I do, however, think that your tone is often imperious and unpleasant (as others reading mine now may be finding me to be).


Thanks.... 

Well as I mentioned earlier, I am not a native English speaker, and while my English is fairly good, I do have difficulty with the different "shades" of the language, I am not that great in expressing myself in a poetic way ... when I read the responses of people like Chagall's mum... I just wish I was able to say things as well as she does... I might feel or want to say the same thing yet it comes out completely different. 

My intentions are never bad, I mean well...... So instead of people trying to jump my throat for the way I sometimes say things, it would maybe be more useful if they actually tried to see what I am trying to say and react to that  

I'm all for learning and if people see that I say something the wrong way or have a better way I could say things, I would be glad to hear it (in a PM maybe so that a topic doesn't get derailed)

You can only correct a mistake if you know you are making one


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## liljaker

Boy, this was an old thread topic and it is doubtful that anyone changed their minds based on others opinions.......but the bottom line is CM is a great marketing machine.....everything from clickers, tee shirts, seminars, dissolving treats (yes), key chains, puppy packs, DVD's........oh, yeah, and he trains dogs???

Personally, I think he is like Dr. Phil -- for dogs -- and I don't pay much attention to him, and I think he likes the extra chatter that his perceived "cruelty" creates....

I wouldn't pay a nickel to see him or hear him and thank goodness my poodles have never needed any heavy duty training/corrections -- but would probably stick with positive reinforcement anyway. Actually, I can whisper to Sunny and he complies........ (smile)

Just my opinion here.......


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## Countryboy

Tsk, tsk, Caniche. :nono: lol I think u started this thread deliberately. 

But honestly I'm kind'a laffing. 'Cos in previous years, by now, in any CM discussion... fists would be raised, tables would be overturned, Rick's popcorn would be flyin'. CAPS, exclamation marks and *bolding* would be popping up everywhere! Font size would be gettin' larger and larger! :afraid: lol

Very civilized, this thread. :first:


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## Wild Kitten

Countryboy said:


> Very civilized, this thread. :first:


Hey it only has 2 pages yet


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## patk

PoodleRick said:


> op:


:deadhorse: ? 

kidding aside, it's good to see a discussion of this kind that has not deteriorated into hysteria. i'm one of those who does not dismiss millan, though i don't agree with him completely, either. i think it's important for anyone with a dog to be familiar with a lot of different methods of training mainly because i don't believe dogs are cookie cutter animals. 

when people talk about millan not being a certified trainer, i have to ask: do they realize jean donaldson's degree is in music and comparative psychology? or that victoria stilwell was an actress who got into dog training by accident - as in, to feed herself, she started a dog walking service? donaldson at one point was apparently even attacked (verbally) by another well-known trainer, suzanne clothier, and kind of lumped in with cesar millan! donaldson and stilwell are as much self-created as dog "experts" as cesar millan. they moved on to create training organizations based on what? well, actually, experience, not the kind of credentials held by patricia mcconnell and sophia yin.

what? why am i making that point? because if you read mcconnell, she admits she has been bitten and so, i believe, has sophia yin. in addition, mcconnell has stated categorically that there are some dogs that cannot live in human society (translation: they are going to have to be euthanized) and yin has said she would use an electronic collar if that were the only way to save a dog's life. in other words, not having been bitten is not proof of expertise. it may, in fact, simply be testimony to not having worked with the most difficult dogs.

that's the framework in which i look at millan. if his life experience disqualifies him, then the same holds true for jean donaldson and victoria stilwell. probably it's just me, but the fact that millan is so often referred to by critics as "uneducated" gets my back up - because, rightly or wrongly, i sense an underlying snobbery about a mexican guy without a high school education who crossed into the u.s. illegally. in real world terms, jean donaldson and victoria stilwell started out as equally uneducated when it came to dog behavior - maybe more so. stilwell didn't even have a dog of her own until sometime in the 2000's. on the other hand, i can look at millan's daddy and junior and i know those dogs were not brutalized during training. (by the way, donaldson was a canadian and stilwell english - all immigrants come to make their fortunes in the u.s. as dog training experts.)

so in the end, i prefer not to just dump (or dump on) someone like cesar millan. i don't have to follow him slavishly; i am able to pick and choose from what he has to offer just as i am able to pick and choose from what the "uneducated" jean donaldson and victoria stilwell have to offer. it's called using the brain that god (or nature, if you're an atheist) gave you.

p.s. as far as pack theory being discredited, well, not so fast. there's a newer report in on stray dogs in rome that reaches somewhat different conclusions than those reached by observers of the romanian stray dogs. sometimes "science" depends on who the scientist is.


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## lily cd re

Wild Kitten said:


> Well that's why I asked you how do you know...
> 
> I have never met her, I can only go by what she says, of course if I was in your place I would believe my friends over a celebrity......
> 
> That being said, how bad was the bite? Did she bleed? *I am not sure about how bad the bite was.*
> 
> Maybe people's perception of being bitten is different the same way as our perception of a "kick" - which was just discussed a bit earlier in this topic
> Maybe she considers being bitten when the bite actually bleeds and not just the dog bit and get her but it was not bleeding sort of thing. *This also could be the case that the definitions different people use about bites are different. I use Ian Dunbar's bite wound pathology scale. *
> 
> Obviously that's just speculations..... I got no proof either way, I just never had a reason to think that she was lying when she stated in several interviews and also in a live webbing I attended that she was never bitten.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks....
> 
> Well as I mentioned earlier, I am not a native English speaker, and while my English is fairly good, I do have difficulty with the different "shades" of the language, I am not that great in expressing myself in a poetic way ... when I read the responses of people like Chagall's mum... I just wish I was able to say things as well as she does... I might feel or want to say the same thing yet it comes out completely different.
> 
> My intentions are never bad, I mean well...... So instead of people trying to jump my throat for the way I sometimes say things, it would maybe be more useful if they actually tried to see what I am trying to say and react to that
> 
> I'm all for learning and if people see that I say something the wrong way or have a better way I could say things, I would be glad to hear it (in a PM maybe so that a topic doesn't get derailed)
> 
> You can only correct a mistake if you know you are making one


I forgot or didn't realize that you aren't a native English speaker. It is a horrendously difficult language for non-native speakers. I don't envy you trying to take it on as an adult, but think you are doing fine. Many of the students at my institution are not native English speakers either. I don't envy them having to learn the language at the same time as trying to learn biology. As an analogy to your statement about correcting mistakes, I always tell my students that the only stupid questions are the ones you are afraid to ask. If we don't challenge ourselves by having high expectations for ourselves, by accepting critique with grace and humor and by always seeing opportunities to learn in all things then we will never advance ourselves as individuals or as societies.


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## Chagall's mom

Given his moves and fancy footwork, it's my opinion Cesar would be_ the most fun trainer_ to go out dancing with. :dancing: 
Maybe some Irish dancing?:dancing2:
Irish Dancing Chimps 2 - YouTube


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## poolann

Many of the trainers I know don't have certification. They are self taught & excellent at what they do. Anyone can go online & take a course. They don't even have to own a dog, just pay up & pass some tests. I don't knock CM or anyone else for lack of a formal education. I just don't agree with some of his methods. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## patk

poolann said:


> Many of the trainers I know don't have certification. They are self taught & excellent at what they do. Anyone can go online & take a course. They don't even have to own a dog, just pay up & pass some tests. I don't knock CM or anyone else for lack of a formal education. I just don't agree with some of his methods.


exactly. the nub is his methods. but even there there is a refusal to admit that the operant conditioning model is composed of four quadrants, two of them involving punishment. punishment can be harsh or mild, but if one is going to claim "science" as the cornerstone of dog training, then it has to be recognized as part of the model. one can chose how, whether, etc., to use it, but denying that it can be effective is a misrepresentation of "science-based" training. and more to the point, as i have now mentioned several times at pf, one of the gurus of positive reinforcement training, jean donaldson, has pointed out that it is possible to claim to be a positive trainer and be incompetent and it is possible to be a trainer who uses punishment and be competent. that's about as honest as one can get, but it's what so many seem not to want to admit. it's up to people to choose how to train; it is not a matter of there being only one way. hopefully people will choose not to brutalize their dogs, but yelling at people to achieve that end is, imo, about as effective as yelling at one's dog to "behave!" 

what people don't get is that you never see cesar millan yelling at people or implying that they are stupid, mean, incompetent, whatever. that's why people listen to him - because he conveys the message that he's not judging them, he's there to share their concern and help if he can. it's a powerful message when there's a beloved pet involved.


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## ApricotsRock

One thing positive we can take from CM is his emphasis on exercise.


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## Grandma's Boys

I actually enjoy watching C.M. I would not use some of his methods, and if a puppy is trained right from the beginning, you would not need to. He is there for the problem Dogs and has had success with them. I remember how upset he was when a female, I believe Rat terrier was put to sleep after he had worked with her. He said if he had known he would have brought her to his ranch and kept her. Many of these dogs would have been euthanized or surrendered to shelters if he had not stepped in. Sometimes drastic measures are needed. And with the interaction that was shown between him and Daddy and now Junior, you can see the affection between them.


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## Carley's Mom

I would not use the same type of training on every dog. Every dog is different. My Carley wants to please, a frown on my face is enough for her. Stella needs more.... I have never hit a dog before Stella. A raised voice was enough, that's why I let Carley get jumped on for a year before I put a stop to it. Some dogs are all about me, could care less about what you want. I did not know that. I thought if you loved your dogs and treated them kind, you would be treated the same... WRONG ! Stella took a strong hand and she has come around now. She is not even like the same dog ! I so much enjoy her now, and I was ready to re-home her. So glad I had the guts to do what needed to be done.


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## Chagall's mom

Knowing the forum readership is vast, and some are first-time dog owners with no experience or face challenges with their poodles, I offer this. I do so without malice, only wishing to help others succeed with and fully enjoy their poodles.:dog:
Why Beat The Dog? | Dog Star Daily


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## lily cd re

Chagall's Mom I think we all have been having a very interesting discussion of diverse views and methods here and that all points of view are being treated with thoughtfulness. Thanks for injecting Dog Star Daily as an important perspective that doesn't rely on the celebrity factor, even though I think Ian Dunbar is a rock star! Many of the women at his seminar I attended on Saturday commented on how lovely his voice is and that he is easy on the eyes (even though by his own admission he is on the far side of his 60s).


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## Poodlebeguiled

Chagall's mom said:


> Knowing the forum readership is vast, and some are first-time dog owners with no experience or face challenges with their poodles, I offer this. I do so without malice, only wishing to help others succeed with and fully enjoy their poodles.:dog:
> Why Beat The Dog? | Dog Star Daily


:adore::adore::adore::adore::adore:

Wonderful article. Exactly and always my point about punishment in training. I have never had to use harsh aversives on dogs to teach them anything and I've made a living from training dogs and rehabilitating dogs with aggression and other problematic issues and worked with dogs whose owners had copied CM and who, in many cases _caused_ aggression and relationship problems in their dogs using these confrontational and confusing (to a dog) methods that put dogs on the defensive. Never had a single one that "required" anything harsh or stern.

I'm so happy you found this for those who are willing to explore, especially new dog owners or lurkers who have not learned anything much about behavior and who are _wanting_ to learn. 

I wanted to stay out of this thread because everyone already probably knows my disdain for people who mistreat dogs and call it training, including but not limited to CM. It would just be re-hashing. Plus, I'm really busy these days. But I just wanted to say you're my hero for posting this wonderful article written by someone who _really_ knows behavior.:adore:


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## Poodlebeguiled

And that is not to say I never get pissy with my dogs or holler at them occasionally. I do. I, like most people have those times where I am less patient or they do something that really annoys me and I haven't _trained _them not to. Or need to stop some disaster that's imminent. As Pat McConnell says, there's a catch. We're primates. 

They might be yapping in the back yard on and on and we're still working on "enough" but they might be relentless and I finally holler, "shut the heck up!" I don't say it so violently that it scares them, but I holler. It's not training. It's my nerves on edge and it does nothing to change their behavior in the long run. (might shut them up for a sec) And it does nothing to improve the relationship. Thankfully, this is an occasional happening and it's more of a useless nagging than a loud, scary scolding anyhow.

If they grab something they shouldn't have, I ask them quietly to drop it or give. They're good at that because we practiced with trading for something they like better because that's how dogs work. So, Matisse, being the wild child he is might pick up something yucky in the yard or on a walk and if I don't notice in time to tell him in a normal speaking voice, "leave it," and he gets it, I can still ask him to drop it. They're all pretty good at those little tricks. So, there's no need to scold or yell. I've put the training in. 

Anyone can do this and this is merely representative of many behaviors dogs can learn to start or stop and learn _without_ compulsion, yanks, scolding or harsh "no!" or firm voice. I can whisper to my dogs certain cues because they learned the skill that way. Serious, loud, firm, soft, quiet, gentle, whisper, clear your throat, squeaky voice, burp...it doesn't matter. If that's the sound that became the cue to start or stop a behavior, that's _all_ that matters when you use good, sound training methods. And they're all over the Internet and in books. Kikopup is a great example of an extremely successful trainer who does not rely on harsh aversives of _any_ kind to train or rehabilitate aggressive behavior. (Youtube) It is simply not needed to train a dog. And there are a lot of nasty side effects to compulsive type training methods.

When working seriously on trying to modify a behavior or eliminate or add a behavior, working on obedience skills, tricks, conformation show training (what little there is of that)the vast majority of the times I interact with them, I don't use harsh aversives; collar corrections (not on purpose) and never anger or sterness to frighten, never pain. It's all fun and games or nothing. That's my goal...to use sound principles based on the science of learning theory where it pertains to dogs especially, where it coincides with the way dogs think and learn....the way they ARE. Not this dog or that dog, but _all_ dogs. All mammals with a brain stem learn under the same principles, the same laws of behavior. (get tired of people saying that all dogs don't learn the same way. Yes they do. They may need variations in motivators, rewards, different ways to distract them or rev them up and keep them interested, more or fewer repetitions. There _are_ variations. The concepts of learning theory are universal among mammals. And harsh punishment, shutting down a dog so he doesn't exhibit a behavior seems to "work" because he stops the behavior but often also stops behaving in general...at all (because he often doesn't know what the target behavior is because of many factors, such as those mentioned in that article) 

He's then afraid to throw new behaviors...too much risk involved, not worth the effort. No offering of new behaviors = learning stops. Too much potential fall-out for my liking.

I think it's about time that John Q public gets the picture that dogs are not human and stop attributing a human value system and human morals to dogs. They do* not *share those with us. They do not blow us off or flip us off. 
They don't do things entirely _because_ they love us. That's been a pretty thing we like to think and attribute to ourselves....that we're so wonderful and that's why they _live_ to please. (the "love thy owner" myth) They do what works for them. Let's face it. How would the most successful species on earth evolve like the domestic dog has if he went around thinking about what pleases someone else? They don't know what pleases us without training and then they _still_ don't know our internal state of mind. That takes a lot higher cognitive ability than a dog has. They know if it works, it's safe or it's dangerous. It's profitable and pleasant or it's not. (to _them_.)It's the difference between a species dying out... and thriving, reproducing and evolving. If we can't make it work for them, the way _they_ operate, then we might as well stay in the dark ages and keep on with our ever popular, domination over them, making them less than a dog. I much prefer to have my dogs as partners with me rather than this antagonistic thing I see on the dog whisperer show and in many other real life situations.

There are way, way, way too many good behaviorist-authors, excellent trainers who KNOW how behavior works with dogs to waste time trying to learn something from the dog whisperer who clearly doesn't cut the mustard in my opinion. (and not just my opinion, believe me.)


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## PammiPoodle

Well, I am just thrilled with the direction this thread has taken! I tried to mostly keep my post to my feelings about Cesar, and not go too far into the particular methods I disagree with and why. I know I've voiced that plenty of times in other threads! And I'm glad I didn't, because I couldn't have put it nearly as perfectly as *Poodlebeguiled*!! Your post reminded me of the quote, "Punishment is like a nuclear bomb; if the blast doesn’t get you, the fallout will."


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## Wild Kitten

patk said:


> .... in other words, not having been bitten is not proof of expertise. it may, in fact, simply be testimony to not having worked with the most difficult dogs.


course....... because rehabilitating dogs rescued from fighting rings (which she is heavily involved with) is not working with difficult dogs... 



patk said:


> so in the end, i prefer not to just dump (or dump on) someone like cesar millan. i don't have to follow him slavishly; i am able to pick and choose from what he has to offer just as i am able to pick and choose from what the "*uneducated*" jean donaldson and *victoria stilwell* have to offer. it's called using the brain that god (or nature, if you're an atheist) gave you.


Except she is not uneducated....... 



> In the early 1990s, Stilwell began her career in pet training when she created her own successful dog-walking company and immediately recognized the need for qualified professionals to help her clients with the training process. While pursuing a successful acting career (working in London's West End as well as in numerous films, TV series, commercials and voiceovers),* she expanded her focus to dog training by learning from some of Britain's most respected positive-reinforcement dog trainers and behaviorists.*


http://positively.com/victoria-stilwell/about-victoria/

She learned from others! 
She did not just go and pronounced herself a dog trainer "because I grew up with dogs so I got to know them" style. 

She studied, read up on the science and still does..... she often shares articles of new research on her blog and facebook, she is still constantly learning from others, she does not claim that she knows it all. 

When does Cesar listen to anyone but himself? Have you ever heard him mentioning anyone else who he learned from? 

She regularly attends various conferences and seminars where there are other speakers who she learns from and she organizes seminars like the dog bite prevention conferences again where other speakers are also involved to teach people how to prevent a dog bite - instead of showing them dangerous methods to "train" 

She is a member of the US Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) and the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC) - that got to count for something too, there is an acceptance process.... some one would look into your work and your knowledge before they just give you a membership! 

She is also involved with the police investigating dog attacks on people.....


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## patk

you should reread poolann's post. in the u.s., anyone can claim to be a trainer. even jean donaldson has said dog training is the wild west. 

do you think a list of "creds" makes a difference? how about these: cesar millan has been inducted into the hall of fame of the international association of canine professionals, next major event to be held this september in virginia. you may want to look up the seminar leaders - including martin deeley, wendy volhard, brother christopher of the monks of new skete. he has established the millan foundation, a national, non-profit 501(c)3 whose mission is "to create and deliver community humane education programs and promote animal welfare by supporting the rescue, rehabilitation, and rehoming of abused and abandoned dogs." you may want to look up his dog psychology center, his adopt me thursday program, his pet walk on behalf of the north shore animal league no kill organization, not to mention his funding of development of the mutt-i-grees curriculum, developed by the north shore animal league pet savers foundation in collaboration with the yale university school of the 21st century - with considerable input from millan himself.

does that make you respect him more? i didn't think so. you don't agree with his methods, and i don't have a problem with that. i and others have said we don't agree with him on everything. but i have a problem with the assumption that i or anyone else have to totally despise millan or it's okay to try to browbeat me into doing so. the cognitive dissonance involved when someone professes to support positive only reinforcement training for dogs but tries to browbeat humans is, indeed, mind-blowing - could one even say at a nuclear level?


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## Grandma's Boys

I agree with PatK. I do not agree with the leash yank he does, or the quick kick he does to get their attention. Other than that, I have never seen any "beating" or other behavior that could be considered abuse.


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## Chagall's mom

lily cd re said:


> Chagall's Mom *I think we all have been having a very interesting discussion of diverse views and methods here and that all points of view are being treated with thoughtfulness.* Thanks for injecting Dog Star Daily ...).


Indeed! I have only heard a slight bit of growling, especially as compared to prior discussions on the topic. :becky: I do hope* Caniche*, who started the thread, will weigh in at some point. I wonder if she posed the question because she's trying to make up her own mind about Cesar's techniques? If so, I hope the discussion has been helpful to her, as well as others. _Yoohoo,_ *Caniche*, come join in! (Nobody here bites, as far as I know!) :wavey:


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## fjm

I have been trying to find the research that discovered that cats, when focussed on a potential prey creature, do not just ignore distracting noises, but show no brain activity that would indicate that they were even able to hear them. It made me realise that my dogs are probably not deliberately blanking me when they fail to leave a wonderful smell when I call, but may be so deeply involved in it that they do not hear me (rather as I sometimes fail to spot their signals when I am absorbed in a PF debate!).

I think everyone probably already knows my views on CM. I agree with Poodlebeguiled.


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## fjm

Duplicate post.


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## Chagall's mom

*fjm*, Your post brought this to mind.

“He blew me off!” | Wilde About Dogs 
*“He blew me off!”*
I’ve seen it way too many times. An owner has asked a dog to do something, and the dog doesn’t do it…so the owner repeats the request more loudly. (Have I mentioned that dogs can hear a potato chip hit the carpet in the next room? The dog heard the cue the first time!) If the dog still doesn’t comply, the owner gets frustrated, or perhaps even angry. Depending on what the person feels is acceptable human behavior, the dog may then get jerked, shaken, or worse.

Why do we become so upset when dogs don’t comply with our requests? Well, for one thing, we anthropomorphize. We think, He blew me off! Or She’s just being stubborn! The truth is, dogs don’t do what we want when we want for a variety of reasons. Here are just a few possible scenarios:

1. The dog simply doesn’t know the behavior well enough, or it hasn’t been generalized. Teaching a dog how to do something, and seeing that the dog responds correctly, doesn’t mean that the dog is proficient in the behavior. If I was learning French (which I am actually trying to do!) and you taught me to say Bonjour as a “Good morning” greeting, I would then say, “Bonjour” when I saw you in the morning. But the French also use Bonjour for “Good afternoon,” and unless you taught me specifically that meaning, I would not be able to generalize the morning greeting; I would not know that was expected of me in any situation other than in the morning.

If you teach your dog “Sit” means to sit facing you, what happens when you teach loose leash walking, and want your dog to sit by your side when you stop? Often he’ll swing out and sit facing you, because that’s what he’s been taught! It’s our responsibility to teach dogs to generalize behaviors, especially when we expect the dog to do them in different contexts.

2. The dog is distracted. With all the distractions in our everyday lives—wait, was that a Facebook message coming through?—surely if anyone should understand being distracted, it’s us. A dog who normally complies with your requests may suddenly seem as though he’s developed selective hearing. But the truth is, he can’t listen because his attention is being consumed by something else entirely. So get your dog’s attention first, and then give the cue. It sounds simple, but I so often see owners giving the dog a cue over and over while the dog’s attention is focused elsewhere. Instead of asking me over and over again, “Do you need anything at the market?” while I’m trying to work at the computer, you’d do better to call my name first, wait until I answer, and then ask. (I’m thinking this may be why men and women spend so much time saying, “I did tell you that!”—the person was distracted when it was said the first time.)

3. You must build a bridge between point A to point B, and the steps on that bridge should be small ones. You can’t expect that just because you taught your dog to come when you call him from the next room, that he’ll come when he’s running around outdoors. You’ve got to build in small steps between point A and point B so he can be successful. So maybe you practice first in the house, and then practice calling your dog to come inside when he’s out in the yard. Next, you go to a local park and practice with your dog on a long line, and build up to where he’ll come from a distance off-leash. It takes time, but it’s the only way to get a solid response.

4. The dog is shut down. If a dog is so afraid that he shuts down, he is unable to respond to your request. I have unfortunately seen this happen in training classes I have observed, where the methods were harsh and the dogs were overwhelmed. Unfortunately, this lack of response was taken as insubordination rather than the sign of severe stress that it was, which in the trainer’s mind necessitated further corrections.

These are only a few of the reasons a dog may not comply. There are countless others, including that the dog may be feeling ill, or that, believe it or not, the dog simply made a mistake. It happens, just as it does with us. So next time you think, He blew me off! stop and assess the situation to see if there are mitigating circumstances.


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## cookieface

Chagall'sMom, that's very similar to this piece: “But He Knows It!”. Good information to keep in mind when training.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Excellent post Chagallsmom! You hit on so many good points that I completely "blew off." I know about these things and forgot to include them in my posts.

And FJM....absolutely it is true. When their predatory motor pattern sequence sparks into any type of action, they tell the cortex to please hold, the next available brain cell will be with you shortly. I have read in several publications how they can NOT hear you when they're focused strongly on something else, being the predators they are. In fact, I saw a study which was the premise for why talking on cell phones is a bad idea while driving. (of course, so are a lot of other things we do while driving) But anyhow, that multi tasking everyone talks about. It's a myth. Our brains and I'm sure dogs aren't any better at it, can NOT put focus on two things at once. They can switch back and forth, sometimes quickly with humans anyhow but no equal amount of concentration can happen simultaneously. There was a thing on TV about this and they demonstrated what our brains do with the audience...very cool show. Dr. Oz. 

Anyhow...yes, and dogs do not generalize behavior nearly as well as we do. So, that reason, one of many good examples Chagallsmom gave us is enough to make me steer clear of harsh punishment for any of my human-perceived reasons. And what for anyhow? There are ways to teach dogs that don't involve coercive, intimidating methods and they work _extremely_ well. On_ ALL _dogs. So why even defend such treatment or entertain the use of it? That's what's beyond me.


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## Wild Kitten

Grandma's Boys said:


> I agree with PatK. I do not agree with the leash yank he does, or the quick kick he does to get their attention. Other than that, I have never seen any "beating" or other behavior that could be considered abuse.


So it's alright to swing them around by their scruffs, intimidate them and bully them as long as he doesn't kick or bear? 

Would you let him anywhere near your pup? 

I most definitely wouldn't.......


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## Grandma's Boys

Wild Kitten said:


> So it's alright to swing them around by their scruffs, intimidate them and bully them as long as he doesn't kick or bear?
> 
> Would you let him anywhere near your pup?
> 
> I most definitely wouldn't.......


Actually I have never seen him do those things and have watched quite frequently. My Pup won't need his services.


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## Wild Kitten

I just posted a video of him swinging dogs by their scruffs in an earlier post...... 

Bullying and intimidation, there's some of that too in the other video in the same post... and in every single video you will ever find from him...


And I know your current pup will never need his or anyone else's service....... but imagine you had one that does.... or your friend has one that does, would you let them call the person who "trains" by intimidation or would you actually look for a trainer who uses positive methods.


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## Spoos+Ponies

I watched the 'kicking' video - I really don't see any abuse. Presumably they've compiled the most egregious examples...I used to watch the show quite often and he's clear that the purpose of the 'tap' is to redirect the dog's focus. Often the dog has very little reaction to it other than paying a little more attention, and even when they yelp it seems more like surprise than anything. I've had my dogs do that just when they've been startled and nothing/no one has even touched them, or if one of the horses walks up behind them too quietly. I have been known to poke my guy lightly in the ribs when he's being a little too excited about something going on outside - it's very effective. 

I really think the greatest value of the show is that it makes it very clear that the vast majority of problem dogs are due, solely, to inexperienced owners with very little dog skill...and also that you should pick your breed based on your lifestyle, keeping in mind the dog's original use, not on the colour...


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## Grandma's Boys

I actually had not seen that episode with the Jack Russels and no I did not like that method. I had a Vet do that to my 4 pound Chihuahua, because she struggled when he was looking in her eye that had gotten scratched. It made me very mad and I never went back to him. Yes I would try a trainer that used positive reinforcement first, by all means. But what if there was a dog that would be euthanized because he had bitten or attacked someone if it happened again. And the other trainer was not able to get the dog to a calm submissive state. I would be willing to try anything to prevent him or her from being euthanized. The slap, or sharp bite, as he called it, did look rougher than I usually see, and I don't like that he was using a Chicken, as most dogs would be at the least curious about. As I said I don't agree with everything he does, but I have seen good results as well.


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## patk

i find the rabid hatred of millan i've encountered at pf and elsewhere irrational and disturbing, as is the apparent need to impose one's views on others. if you don't like his methods, don't use them; that's the best testimonial to using other methods. the underlying tone of wanting to destroy millan does not speak well for the positive only types who feel that way. i would never entrust my dog to someone who proclaims allegiance to positive reinforcement but is filled with so much hatred. it's not healthy.


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## Wild Kitten

Grandma's Boys said:


> I actually had not seen that episode with the Jack Russels and no I did not like that method. I had a Vet do that to my 4 pound Chihuahua, because she struggled when he was looking in her eye that had gotten scratched. It made me very mad and I never went back to him. Yes I would try a trainer that used positive reinforcement first, by all means. *But what if there was a dog that would be euthanized because he had bitten or attacked someone if it happened again. And the other trainer was not able to get the dog to a calm submissive state. I would be willing to try anything to prevent him or her from being euthanized. *The slap, or sharp bite, as he called it, did look rougher than I usually see, and I don't like that he was using a Chicken, as most dogs would be at the least curious about. As I said I don't agree with everything he does, but I have seen good results as well.



That is the problem though......... "calm submissive state" as he calls it.... it is not really calm at all. Yes it is submissive but it is not calm. It is a dog shutting off in his presence as a result of his bullying...... Once his gone the "calm submissive state" will be gone too. 

The problem, the reason why the dog bites is not resolved it is still there.......... he is not treating the cause, only deals with the symptoms and trust me, it has been proven over and over again that the dogs that he has "rehabilitated" with his harsh methods will repeat the behaviour. 
If he bit before he will bite again because the cause is still there. 
And the people - owners are at even bigger risk imo because they will try to copy his methods and they might not be as forceful or skilled or fast in reacting to the dog as he is and they will get bitten.........and the dog will be put down anyway. 

If I had an aggressive dog and one positive trainer could not "cure" him, I would try a second the third and fourth ..... and if they do not succeed either, then it is kinder to put the dog down than to put him through the millan treatment. There are some dogs that are so far gone, that they can not be rehabilitated, no matter what he says.


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## Wild Kitten

patk said:


> i find the *rabid hatred of millan* i've encountered at pf and elsewhere irrational and disturbing,


"Rabid hatred of Millan" ?? Seriously?? 

I don't think anyone here hates HIM personally....... he might be a perfectly nice guy who means well, he does a lot of good too, in regards of charity which I am pretty sure every single person here appreciates and respects..... 

That does not mean that we can not hate his methods, it is not a simple "disagreement" .... we hate cruelty on animals and most his methods are cruel! 
We also hate how he endangers the public and again.... his methods are putting every single person who tries to copy him in danger. 

No surprise that at the start of every single episode of the dog whisperer there is a warning "Don't try this yourself" 

But people do! And they get hurt and their dogs get hurt! So how can it be good?


----------



## patk

Wild Kitten said:


> That is the problem though......... "calm submissive state" as he calls it.... it is not really calm at all. Yes it is submissive but it is not calm. It is a dog shutting off.
> 
> The problem, the reason why the dog bites is not resolved it is still there.......... he is not treating the cause, only deals with the symptoms and trust me, it has been proven over and over again that the dogs that he has "rehabilitated" with his harsh methods will repeat the behaviour.
> If he bit before he will bite again because the cause is still there.
> And the people - owners are at even bigger risk imo because they will try to copy his methods and they might not be as forceful or skilled or fast in reacting to the dog as he is and they will get bit.........and the dog will be put down anyway.


and your credentials are?


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## Wild Kitten

well show me an episode where he deals with the problem, WHY the dog bites (without going into all that alpha dominance crap)... and deals with that... remove the reason why the dog bites, and he will stop biting.


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## fjm

patk said:


> and your credentials are?


I think that if we each required an advanced degree in animal behaviour and learning theory, and years of professional experience, to comment on this thread it would be a great deal shorter than it is ... Surely each of us is speaking from our own experience, and from our studying of the views and experiences of others who do have those advanced qualifications? And the evidence of that research is overwhelmingly against the forceful methods too often used by CM and his imitators.


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## patk

have you ever heard that the burden of proof is on the affirmative? you are the one making the assertions. show me your creds. or better yet, given that anyone can be certified as a trainer or behaviorist, cite some science-based conclusions. i hear a lot of assertions, i see people pointing to this or that trainer's or behaviorist's opinion, but i don't see facts. facts are helpful to others. owners at pf who have related their experience are relating facts - what actually happened in a given situation. telling them something is wrong when it worked is just going to get the person saying it's wrong ignored.


----------



## patk

fjm said:


> I think that if we each required an advanced degree in animal behaviour and learning theory, and years of professional experience, to comment on this thread it would be a great deal shorter than it is ... Surely each of us is speaking from our own experience, and from our studying of the views and experiences of others who do have those advanced qualifications? And the evidence of that research is overwhelmingly against the forceful methods too often used by CM and his imitators.


so personal experience is acceptable for millan critics but his personal experience is not acceptable? what i'm getting at here is the double standard i see being employed. i think there are factual reasons that can be cited to show that some or most of what cesar millan does is, at minimum, questionable. but i don't see those facts being laid out. i hear a lot of opinion, i hear claims about "the science shows," but in fact when people equate positive reinforcement with operant conditioning, they are suppressing the fact that four quadrants, two of them including punishment, are part of the theory. expecting me or anyone else to then blindly follow that kind of smushy thinking is actually a bit insulting.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

> Dog training methods: their use, effectiveness and interaction with behaviour and welfare
> 
> Conclusions and welfare benefits
> 
> There are ethical concerns that dog-training methods incor-
> 
> porating physical or verbal punishment may result in pain
> 
> and/or suffering. We provide evidence that, in the general
> 
> dog-owning population, dogs trained using punishment are
> 
> no more obedient than those trained by other means and,
> 
> furthermore, they exhibit increased numbers of potentially
> 
> problematic behaviours. Problematic behaviours can com-
> 
> promise welfare as they are often associated with an
> 
> increased state of anxiety (eg Askew 1996) and they can also
> 
> lead the owner to relinquish the dog (Serpell 1996). Because
> 
> reward-based methods are associated with higher levels of
> 
> obedience and fewer problematic behaviours, we suggest
> 
> that their use is a more effective and welfare-compatible
> 
> alternative to punishment for the average dog owner.


If You're Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be Too, Says Veterinary Study -- ScienceDaily


Penn News | If You're Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be, Too, Says Veterinary Study at University of Pennsylvania



> “This study highlights the risk of dominance-based training, which has been made popular by TV, books and punishment-based training advocates,”Herron said. “These techniques are fear-eliciting and may lead to owner-directed aggression.”


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

AVSAB 2 - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN




> American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior
> AVSAB (vets) - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN
> 
> 10 June 2009
> 
> Dear Dr. Line,
> 
> The executive board of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior is deeply troubled to learn that Merial, a leader in the veterinary healthcare industry, is using Cesar Millan in a promotional campaign for Heartgard and Frontline. We are even more disturbed to find that Merial is cross-promoting Mr. Millan's behavior video as part of this campaign. Merial's executives may not be aware of the fact that the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB), the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) and the Society of Veterinary Behavior Technicians (SVBT) have uniformly spoken out against the punishment-based techniques employed by Mr. Millan on his television show "The Dog Whisperer."
> 
> At best, the show is entertaining but misleading to pet owners. *At worst, Mr. Millan's techniques and misinformation have contributed to increased aggression and anxiety or resulted in physical injury to the pet and/or pet owner. *As practicing veterinarians, we all unfortunately have seen many cases of the latter. Merial claims to "enhance the health, well-being, and performance of animals.” The use of Mr. Millan as part of an advertising campaign speaks otherwise.
> 
> In these difficult economic times, it may be understandable that Merial would want to use a "celebrity" to advertise its products in a direct-to-consumer fashion. However, had Merial taken the time to investigate, it would have found that Mr. Millan's philosophy runs counter to the standard-of-care promoted by veterinary behaviorists and taught at veterinary schools.
> 
> We are deeply saddened that Merial's executives are not more supportive of the veterinary behavior community and its efforts to promote knowledgeable, scientifically-based, humane training methods. We remain concerned that your company's support of Mr. Millan’s controversial training methods through the distribution of his video and financial support of his show will contribute to the number of difficult dogs and injured owners that we have to eventually console, counsel, and reeducate. Perhaps Merial would like to support our efforts to counteract the negative impact of this unfortunate marketing choice that may ultimately serve to alienate educated veterinarians, dog trainers, and owners alike.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> E. Kathryn Meyer, VMD (President)
> John Ciribassi, DVM, DACVB (Immediate Past President)
> Karen Sueda, DVM, DACVB (President Elect)
> Kari Krause, DVM
> Kelly Morgan, DVM
> Valli Parthasarathy, PhD, DVM
> Sophia Yin, PhD, DVM
> Laurie Bergman, VMD, DACVB
> 
> AVSAB Letter to Merial


----------



## patk

Wild Kitten said:


> "Rabid hatred of Millan" ?? Seriously??


yes, seriously. why do you think poodlerick got out the popcorn? you may want to do some research and find the threads with the screaming word "hate" in bold allcaps. you may even want to review a couple of your own posts and see how you have chosen to defend and then gloss over victoria stilwell's lack of truthfulness about being bitten (yes, i do believe lily cd re's friends had no reason to lie) and compare it with the standard to which you apparently hold cesar millan.


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## lily cd re

The full time faculty union at my institution met on Tuesday to ratify a successor agreement for a contract that had expired on August 31, 2013. The negotiations had been sent to mediation (our next step would have been arbitration). Needless to say it is not the best contract I've seen in my 25+ years teaching here, but it is an agreement. People were invited to ask questions about and make comments on their views about the agreement after the leadership had presented the salient points. Most people asked for simple clarifications of new items, but one person stood up to say that he thought it was the worst contract in his 30+ years and that if we all went along with the leadership and voted in favor of the contract we were cowards. He was booed. The next day the vote tally was announced and there were almost 500 yes votes and less than 50 nos.

What, you are thinking, does this have to do with Cesar Milan or Victoria Stilwell? Nothing and everything. I was appalled that after the vote count was announced by email there were a number of distribution list messages saying how bad it was that people had booed the person who called us cowards. What bothered me was those writers' views that it was ok for their friend to chastise most of the people in the room (those who voted yes) but that it wasn't ok for people to boo him for calling us cowards. Let's all remember that the purpose of the first amendment to the US Constitution (and reflected in many other civil documents) is to protect unpopular speech just as much as to protect speaking in favor of the prevailing view. It takes a lot more courage to say something controversial or disagreeable than to say something nice and easy.


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## Grandma's Boys

Ok, let's agree, that we all have said some of CM's methods are extreme, but some of us believe there is merit in some of his practices. From there, lets just realize that there are differing opinions, that we all have a right to, and leave it at that. No one is going to change anyone's mind here.


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## Chagall's mom

Ah yes, *Grandma's Boys*, but the question still remains, who likes anchovies on their Cesar salad and who doesn't?  Just a matter of personal taste. As are the words people here choose to use to express their opinions. And let's not forget how _easy peasy_ it is for anyone truly disturbed by this or any other forum discussion to just ignore the thread. No one has to shut their mouth. Just their eyes. Mangia! :eating:


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## N2Mischief

No anchovies please!


----------



## Grandma's Boys

I've actually enjoyed the conversation very much. I'm not offended in the least with differing opinions. I was just saying it would not change any opinions. So why not express our opinions and agree not to agree.


----------



## LEUllman

I have a rabid hatred of anchovies. There, I said it!


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## patk

LEUllman said:


> I have a rabid hatred of anchovies. There, I said it!


let's see some science behind your emotion! :biggrin1:


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## Chagall's mom

LEUllman said:


> I have a rabid hatred of anchovies. There, I said it!


My husband said he will agree to disagree with you about that. He LOVES them, he eats mine. :biggrin1:


----------



## Grandma's Boys

LEUllman said:


> I have a rabid hatred of anchovies. There, I said it!


I agree, I think they are stinky, obnoxious and just plain ugly.


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## LEUllman

Ironically, given the subject of this thread, I never order or eat Caesar salads because they might -- just might -- include anchovy as an ingredient in the dressing. And if they do, I can detect it, no matter how microscopic the amount.


----------



## Wild Kitten

Grandma's Boys said:


> I've actually enjoyed the conversation very much. I'm not offended in the least with differing opinions. I was just saying it would not change any opinions. So why not express our opinions and agree not to agree.


Well... 

Hopefully some will change their opinions and move away from abuse ........... probably not anyone who has posted in this topic so far, but there are many lurkers and guests reading this forum, who hopefully after reading many of the links provided on research on positive methods in this topic learned and realized that there is no need to abuse, bully, hurt and intimidate in order to train or rehabilitate a dog. 

============================

I would just like to come back to Cesar's favourite term "calm submission" because it makes no sense to me.

Does anyone seriously believe that there is such thing as calm submission? 

Submission is a behavior displayed by dogs in order to appease, and diffuse aggression! How can you be calm when you are scared??

I don't see it possible. If the dog is submissive and doesn't move, it is just shut off as they see no way out of the situation they are in... 
Their state of mind is not calm at all! 
None of the dogs in any of his videos which he says that display calm submission look calm to me. They look terrified.

So someone....... please explain to me how "calm submission" actually works.


----------



## patk




----------



## PoodleRick

Wild Kitten said:


> Well...
> 
> Hopefully some will change their opinions and move away from abuse ........... probably not anyone who has posted in this topic so far, but there are many lurkers and guests reading this forum, who hopefully after reading many of the links provided on research on positive methods in this topic learned and realized that there is no need to abuse, bully, hurt and intimidate in order to train or rehabilitate a dog.
> 
> ============================
> 
> I would just like to come back to Cesar's favourite term "calm submission" because it makes no sense to me.
> 
> *Does anyone seriously believe that there is such thing as calm submission?*
> 
> Submission is a behavior displayed by dogs in order to appease, and diffuse aggression! How can you be calm when you are scared??
> 
> I don't see it possible. If the dog is submissive and doesn't move, it is just shut off as they see no way out of the situation they are in...
> Their state of mind is not calm at all!
> None of the dogs in any of his videos which he says that display calm submission look calm to me. They look terrified.
> 
> So someone....... please explain to me how "calm submission" actually works.


Depends on what I'm drinking.  Zing


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## patk

what does one drink with popcorn these days?:smile:


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## Indiana

I think you just have to use common sense. I've seen some Cesar shows and they were entertaining.... why do people think they have to have role models all the time? For heavens sake, he's an entertainer. Adopt the training you're comfortable with and that works with your dog. I don't like negative reinforcement, but liverwurst does the trick, so thats what I use. I have 2 easy dogs and 1 tough dog, but very very very consistent and insistent expectations work with all of them. And a lifelong commitment to obedience lessons, which are fun.I say, get over society's tendency to idolize or villainize individuals and use the good from whatever they can teach you. And I could add, I wish people would stop treating their dogs like babies....they like to eat poop and kill small furry things; they're dogs for heavens sake.


----------



## partimum

I am new to the forum but not new to the topic of behavior. It may seem like I'm straying here but please bear with me. I've followed this topic and finally decided to give it a go. 

Usually I deal in severe chronic mental illness within a forensic psyc unit. This is a lockdown rehabilitation center. At times a client will engage in a behavior that places themselves, peers and staff at risk. During these moments I have used a multitude of methods that I am trained in and have experience with. Usually my response is based on the severity of the crisis. If appropriate I have and would use manual restraint in order to ensure the safety of everyone involved. During this time the client IS scared. That doesn't mean that my response is unwarranted. It is an emotion that is a normal reaction to the situation. Behavior modification is NOT designed to work on emotions. It is designed to tap into the reward centers and increase appropriate behaviors. 

Wild Kitten, in reading your posts it's obvious you feel very strongly against any type of training besides positive reinforcement. As a few other members have stated that is one part of behavior modification. While it has the best rates of response there are times when it is not appropriate. Punishment should always be the last resort. That said there are times when I would use "punishment" in the right situation. I'm neither advocating for or against CM methods on a generalized level but do feel that some of his tactics are helpful for specific situations. 

In regards to calm submission, it seems to me that YOU perceive the dog to be scared. My question is how do you know what the animal is thinking or experiencing on an emotional level? Clam submission as I have observed it looks like the dog is relaxed. 

I have watched my dogs interact. When my puppy does something my older dog doesn't like he growls at her or will merely pull his lip back and show her teeth. This is an adversive condition or positive punishment. She knows this is a limit and she adheres to it. The behavior decreases. When she pulls his tail to get him to play he jumps up and plays with her. This is the positive reinforcement. The behavior increases. 

As many have said here perhaps take what works for you and leave the rest. As for attempting to help newer pet owners or lurkers, the lack of regard you have shown towards other members and their responses may defeat that purpose.




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Wild Kitten

Funny how you singled me out...... is it because I was the last to respond? Cause sure as hell I am not the only one who feels strongly about this matter. 

Anyway...... are you trying to tell me that restraining a patient is actually punishing a patient?
Yeah sure, the person might be scared and disoriented, but he/she is not actually being punished, they are just being restrained for everyone's safety. 
Punishing them would be to beat the crap out of them or bully, intimidate or otherwise intentionally scare them ....... which if you did, you most probably would be fired.


----------



## fjm

For me, it comes down to two old adages: you are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts, and the plural of anecdote is not data.

There is considerable research that shows minimally aversive training methods are at least as successful as more aversive ones, while causing less stress to the dog and less damage to its relationship with humans. There is also plenty of evidence that behaviour and emotion modification methods such as desensitisation and controllability are safer and more effective in the long term than flooding, and again far less stressful on the dog. Of course the first objective in any situation is to ensure the safety of all concerned, and that may mean physical restraint is necessary - that is not the same as using forceful restraint as a training or behaviour modification method, though.

I am on my iPad, and don't have access to my lists of research papers, but Professor John Bradshaw's In Defence of Dogs and its bibliography provides a good summary of current findings.


----------



## patk

fjm said:


> For me, it comes down to two old adages: you are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts,and the plural of anecdote is not data.


the first part is exactly the point i have been making. i hear opinions, but not facts. i hear emotional reactions, but not facts.

as for anecdotes, well, behavior is not all subject to lab testing. field observation carries equal, if not more, weight, but conclusions are limited by the data points one can access and the critical and analytical skills of the observer. beyond that, anecdotes may point to facts not currently recognized as such. what we "know" is not set in stone. right now lily cd re has reported in another thread that ian dunbar is challenging what a lot of us have accepted as factual for a long time - that there are clearly defined fear stages in dog development. he is apparently challenging that "fact" based on re-examination of the study which was done and the conditions in which it was conducted. 

here's another challenge. we have been told over and over, no, your dog does not feel guilt. but mark bekoff has pointed out that we don't *know* that to be true, and assuming it is means important research is not being done: Do Dogs Really Feel Guilt or Shame? We Really Don't Know | Psychology Today 

current studies of animal behavior have led to many unexpected conclusions about animal cognition and emotion, most of which are not part of the belief system of so-called dog trainers and behaviorists because they don't know they don't know. i find the sense of some that their pronouncements are not susceptible to challenge, well, challenging, and in a number of instances, counterproductive. reflexive genuflecting to claimants to the throne of absolute knowledge rather than listening to the variety of experience owners at pf have to offer is a dead-end - imo, of course.


----------



## Grandma's Boys

Per Patk, current studies of animal behavior have led to many unexpected conclusions about animal cognition and emotion, most of which are not part of the belief system of so-called dog trainers and behaviorists because they don't know they don't know. i find the sense of some that their pronouncements are not susceptible to challenge, well, challenging, and in a number of instances, counterproductive. reflexive genuflecting to claimants to the throne of absolute knowledge rather than listening to the variety of experience owners at pf have to offer is a dead-end - imo, of course.[/QUOTE]

Well said, IMO.


----------



## atlflier

I have followed this thread with interest, sometimes seeing it as a platform to debate opposing ideas and in other instances akin to watching a potential train wreck in progress. Do I disagree with some comments? Yes. But as with most topics there is an opportunity to learn as long as each side is willing to afford the other a modicum of civility. 

I believe, for me with my own pets, that there are a vast array of methodologies out there for me to chose from. I cannot arbitrarily say I would NEVER give a sharp correction, scruff shake, pinch, tap or even raise my voice to one of my animals because I have yet to find one technique that works across the board with them. After all I do not perceive them as clones of one another. The one constant in the training equation is me and if I'm approaching each animal with the same methodology and not achieving equal results then I have to adapt accordingly until positive results ensue. 

Thus no I'm not opposed to adopting correction into my repertoire if the situation, in my mind, warrants it. I wouldn't start there but I wouldn't take it off the table either. And that's where the crux of my personal annoyance surfaces: anyone intimating/labeling someone's choice to employ facets of CM's tools/techniques as being abusive ergo the person doing so is an abuser. Which is what I'm beginning to glean is subtly woven into this discussion without coming right out and emphatically stating such. What else is one to extrapolate from 10-pages of dialogue when the question of "do you not see this as a kick" has been asked and answered only to be repeated again and again each time with more vehemence behind it? 

To me this whole subject is akin to debating religion, child rearing, gun ownership, politics, etc., as I will afford any person the right to disagree with me as long as they do not repetitively belabor their counterpoint as if it were the holy grail and I must therefore pick up their banner and fly it right along with them. 

Have I watched episodes of CM's show that have been linked into this thread? Yes. Do I see his actions as abusive? No. But I first defined my PERSONAL interpretation of what constitutes "abuse" which for me is to cause irreparable psychological or physical harm or injury. (Your definition of may differ from mine and THAT is precisely where the divergence of opinions begins.) Secondly, having formed that construct I view those clips within the parameters of the show's premise--typically dealing with a very aggressive animal that is putting its owner at risk or on the verge of being sent to a shelter or euthanized. I've also searched out CM clips relating to rearing a young pup, adopting a shelter pet and a few others and have yet to see one where he, IN MY OPINION, abuses an animal. It might not be easy to watch him mete out his training at times but that's because I'm human and as such project/transfer my emotions into the equation. So yes, I see some value to CM's methods much the same as I do for Kilcommon, Wilson, Donaldson, Monks of New Skeet, Stillwell and a host of others. Do I follow anyone's advice wholeheartedly? No, I temper it with my own judgment combined with personal experience and staying abreast of the latest information made available to me. 

The person asking the original question was soliciting comments on the subject from members and I have given mine. That's all it is: MY OPINION.


----------



## PoodleRick

patk said:


> what does one drink with popcorn these days?:smile:


Beer for me.

Rick


----------



## Chagall's mom

PoodleRick said:


> Beer for me. Rick


*I think this thread calls for something stronger. But I will agree to disagree about that.*:wink:


----------



## PoodleRick

Chagall's mom said:


> *I think this thread calls for something stronger. But I will agree to disagree about that.*:wink:


I like your thinking. :cheers: :drink:


----------



## Grandma's Boys

atlflier, thanks for your comments. I to have seen CM treat dogs very kindly. I remember the show on Chihuahua's. one dog had been taken in by a Pit Bull rescuer. She could not get near this dog. His name was Diego. CM changed his name immediately. He decided he was a fearful dog, took him to his hotel, sat beside him on the floor. He had that dog so loving, in a very short time. One of his Crew adopted him, and after that the dog traveled with them. I have seen many instances of his kindness. Also the emphases on exersize he encourages is good. I know that this in no was will change anyone's minds and I really don't want to do so. Just think it is important to point out his good techniques as well as the undesirable ones.


----------



## cookieface

partimum said:


> Usually I deal in severe chronic mental illness within a forensic psyc unit. This is a lockdown rehabilitation center. *At times a client will engage in a behavior that places themselves, peers and staff at risk. During these moments I have used a multitude of methods that I am trained in and have experience with. Usually my response is based on the severity of the crisis. *If appropriate I have and would use manual restraint in order to ensure the safety of everyone involved. During this time the client IS scared. That doesn't mean that my response is unwarranted. It is an emotion that is a normal reaction to the situation. Behavior modification is NOT designed to work on emotions. It is designed to tap into the reward centers and increase appropriate behaviors.


What you're describing is, in your words, a crisis situation. Your goal is not to effect a long-term change in the patient's behavior, it is to manage a potentially dangerous situation.

To apply your analogy to dog training, it's akin to hitting a dog who is biting you to stop the biting _at that moment_. A long-term solution would be to identify the reasons for the bite (e.g., fear, medical issue, resource guarding) and take the necessary _training_ steps to modify the behavior. 



> In regards to calm submission, it seems to me that YOU perceive the dog to be scared. My question is how do you know what the animal is thinking or experiencing on an emotional level? Clam submission as I have observed it looks like the dog is relaxed.


We don't know exactly what the dog is experiencing, all we can do is interpret body language. Calm submission can also look like learned helplessness. In learned helplessness, the dog isn't fearful; s/he has learned that his actions are independent of the consequences. 


> Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
> Author of the book, "Dogs Bite"
> "On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten." (source)





> Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC
> to National Geographic before airing “The Dog Whisperer”:
> “The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead.” (source)


Relevant abstracts: Seligman



> I have watched my dogs interact. When my puppy does something my older dog doesn't like he growls at her or will merely pull his lip back and show her teeth. This is an adversive condition or positive punishment. She knows this is a limit and she adheres to it. The behavior decreases. When she pulls his tail to get him to play he jumps up and plays with her. This is the positive reinforcement. The behavior increases.


This is dogs communicating with other dogs. The growls and showing teeth are roughly equivalent to my saying, "excuse me" (politely) or "please stop that" (more emphatically) to a person who is bothering me. Technically, yes, the growl and lip raising is positive punishment, but that doesn't mean that we should model our training methods on animal behavior, nor does it mean an alpha roll or leash correction or foot tap is communicating the message we intend to send.

Some additional reading:
The Use of Positive Reinforcement Training Techniques to Enhance the Care, Management, and Welfare of Primates in the Laboratory


> Handled frequently and subjected to a wide range of medical procedures that may be particularly invasive, nonhuman animals in a laboratory setting have unique needs. To produce the most reliable research results and to protect and enhance the well-being of the animals, it is desirable to perform these procedures with as little stress for the animals as possible. Positive reinforcement training can use targeted activities and procedures to achieve the voluntary cooperation of nonhuman primates. The benefits of such work include diminished stress on the animals, enhanced flexibility and reliability in data collection, and a reduction in the use of anesthesia. Training also provides the means to mitigate social problems, aid in introductions, reduce abnormal behavior, enhance enrichment programs, and increase the safety of attending personnel. This article describes the application of operant conditioning techniques to animal management.


Negative versus positive reinforcement: An evaluation of training strategies for rehabilitated horses


> Results showed significant differences between the two training schedules for some measures during the latter stages of the trial and suggested that animals trained under a positive reinforcement schedule were more motivated to participate in the training sessions and exhibited more exploratory or ‘trial and error’ type behaviours in novel situations/environments.


New Study Finds Popular "Alpha Dog" Training Techniques Can Cause More Harm Than Good


> Herron stresses, "Studies on canine aggression in the last decade have shown that canine aggression and other behavior problems are not a result of dominant behavior or the lack of the owner’s ‘alpha’ status, but rather a result of fear (self-defense) or underlying anxiety problems. Aversive techniques can elicit an aggressive response in dogs because they can increase the fear and arousal in the dog, especially in those that are already defensive."



Training methods of military dog handlers and their effects on the team's performances


> Low team performances suggest that [dog handler] teams should train more regularly and undertake the usefulness of setting a new training system that would rely on: the use of more positive training methods, an increased training frequency, the elaboration of a course on training principles, and an improvement of dog handler relationship.


Behavior Modification - Why Punishment Should be Avoided

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior position statement on dominance in dogs (non-PDF version)

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior position statement on use of punishment (non-PDF version)

Association of Professional Dog Trainers statement on Dominance and Dog Training


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## Wild Kitten

WOW cookieface, thank you for the great post. 



cookieface said:


> This is dogs communicating with other dogs. The growls and showing teeth are roughly equivalent to my saying, "excuse me" (politely) or "please stop that" (more emphatically) to a person who is bothering me. Technically, yes, the growl and lip raising is positive punishment, but that doesn't mean that we should model our training methods on animal behavior, nor does it mean an alpha roll or leash correction or foot tap is communicating the message we intend to send.


I wanted to reply to that bit too, but I wasn't sure how exactly to express what I feel so rather than saying something that would be misunderstood and used back against me, I just left it out..... you said it better than I ever could. Thanks. 

I'd say that the growl and the lip rising is about as strong a correction to the puppy from another dog as Molly got in this video when she strayed off the sidewalk.



MollyMuiMa said:


>


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## N2Mischief

atlflier said:


> To me this whole subject is akin to debating religion, child rearing, gun ownership, politics, etc., as I will afford any person the right to disagree with me as long as they do not *repetitively belabor their counterpoint as if it were the holy grail *and *I must therefore pick up their banner and fly it right along with them. *


:amen::amen::amen:


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## patk

i'm glad to see cookieface's post with many citations, because finally one of the positive only folks is starting to get atlflier's point: no one is going to be convinced by being berated or browbeaten. people will choose on their own, and solid information is important to choice. i've seen some of the positive only advocates at pf yelling at people who don't do what they believe should be done, treating them with contempt, and finally driving some away. the kind of thing that makes one wrinkle one's nose in disgust.

we've come to a place where some of the basic tents of dog training are actually starting to come into question - by some of the most well-known experts in dog/animal behavior, to wit, ian dunbar and marc bekoff, among others. i don't say this as a defense of cesar millan's methods, which i'm pretty sure neither dunbar nor bekoff would advocate (though dunbar is a prominent participant in millan's latest book, cesar's rules), but to point out that anyone making a claim to expertise on behavior and dog training could end up on very shaky ground with regard to some of their claims.

positive reinforcement advocates should stop being smug, ranting, raving and lecturing others. because some of that has just made clear how little some of them really know about kindness, generosity and treating their fellow human beings respectfully - let alone about truthfulness. it's more productive to treat people as gently as one claims dogs should be treated. and if one doesn't, one should not be surprised if both people and dogs bite back.


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## Grandma's Boys

Quote: I wanted to reply to that bit too, but I wasn't sure how exactly to express what I feel so rather than saying something that would be misunderstood and used back against me, I just left it out..... you said it better than I ever could. Thanks. Quote from Wild Kitten

Funny, how it was ok to use so many of my posts against me!


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## lily cd re

patk said:


> i'm glad to see cookieface's post with many citations, because finally one of the positive only folks is starting to get atlflier's point: no one is going to be convinced by being berated or browbeaten. people will choose on their own, and solid information is important to choice. i've seen some of the positive only advocates at pf yelling at people who don't do what they believe should be done, treating them with contempt, and finally driving some away. the kind of thing that makes one wrinkle one's nose in disgust.
> 
> we've come to a place where some of the basic tents of dog training are actually starting to come into question - by some of the most well-known experts in dog/animal behavior, to wit, ian dunbar and marc bekoff, among others. i don't say this as a defense of cesar millan's methods, which i'm pretty sure neither dunbar nor bekoff would advocate (*though dunbar is a prominent participant in millan's latest book, cesar's rules*), but to point out that anyone making a claim to expertise on behavior and dog training could end up on very shaky ground with regard to some of their claims.
> 
> positive reinforcement advocates should stop being smug, ranting, raving and lecturing others. because some of that has just made clear how little some of them really know about kindness, generosity and treating their fellow human beings respectfully - let alone about truthfulness. it's more productive to treat people as gently as one claims dogs should be treated. and if one doesn't, one should not be surprised if both people and dogs bite back.


I have been to three Ian Dunbar events, am going to another one this weekend and have done his online puppy training course. He talked about meeting Cesar Milan at one of the previous seminars I attended. He talked about how they certainly didn't see eye to eye about many things, but also that he believes Cesar to have some of the same goals he does, the main one being to keep dogs from ending up being euthanized because of behavior problems. One of the main differences between them is that Ian advocates for early puppy socialization and training to prevent the problems people end up calling on Cesar for later on to save their dogs, homes, families, etc.


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## patk

one of the most interesting scenes from cesar's rules was the description of dunbar and millan, both with their dogs off leash, walking and talking together in one of the berkeley parks near dunbar's home. to me it was about how two people from totally different points of view who offer each other respect can come together on more serious issues - like saving lives. and if you read millan's description of how he introduced junior to his kids, well, it's all about respecting the dog. can't get a better start on the relationship than that.


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## Grandma's Boys

I certainly believe that early training is the key. Education is very important for the new puppy owner. My almost 11 week old puppy is like a sponge. She already knows to wait at the door and follow me in and out. How to sit, and watch me and yesterday she learned to lie down, i asked her today wondering if she would remember and down she went, she is walking well on a loose leash and has learned to drop it. All of this learned with positive training methods. She also has not had an accident in the house for a week. She will never need punishment, and I believe this, is do, to early training. She will soon be starting her Puppy obedience class. The key is breeders and shelters giving instruction on training methods for new puppy owners. Printouts, books, classes whatever can be done to help, these new owners start off on the right foot.


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## Chagall's mom

lily cd re said:


> I have been to three Ian Dunbar events, am going to another one this weekend and have done his online puppy training course. He talked about meeting Cesar Milan at one of the previous seminars I attended. He talked about how they certainly didn't see eye to eye about many things, but also that he believes Cesar to have some of the same goals he does, the main one being to keep dogs from ending up being euthanized because of behavior problems. One of the main differences between them is that Ian advocates for early puppy socialization and training to prevent the problems people end up calling on Cesar for later on to save their dogs, homes, families, etc.


A poodle owning friend of mine will be at Dr. Dunbar's seminar this weekend too. She's attended other events of his and found him to be a compassionate, respectful, encouraging person. I would not have thought otherwise of him! I was just googling around and was somewhat taken aback to learn Cesar Milan almost died in 2013, apparently he attempted suicide. I am glad he's well and reinvested in life. Cesar Milan opens up about suicide attempt - Video on TODAY.com Couldn't help but think of your bright former student who recently took her own life. It really puts things in perspective when you pause to think how complex every human being's life actually is. At the end of the day, Ian and Cesar are mortals, with feelings, fans and detractors just like the rest of us. 

Enjoy the seminar, Catherine! Chagall and I will be at the Bucks County Kennel Club Show (PA) tomorrow. The weather should be great, though the grounds will probably be soggy after all the rain we've had.


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## Countryboy

lily cd re said:


> early puppy socialization and training to prevent the problems people end up calling on Cesar for later on to save their dogs, homes, families, etc.


That's really what it's all about, eh? Good socialization for all pups. 'Cos once it's instilled, I don't think u can ever 'train' fear out of a dog. Given time, I think they forget about it. But sometimes it takes years. 

My favourite method for dealing with problem dogs is to bring them into the house and leave them alone. Ignore them for the first hours, or a day. Don't even look at them much. Let them get themselves comfortable. No loud noises... no g-kids tearing around... peace and quiet and me and Tonka and the new dog. Nobody bothering anybody.


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## patk

cb, the way cesar millan introduced junior to his sons as a puppy was to tell the kids to leave junior alone, let him sniff, explore and approach them on his own. and of course ian dunbar is famous for espousing "no touch" training. sounds like you may be able to set yourself up as a trainer, too. your methodology could be called country boy's way!


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## Chagall's mom

This thread made me think of dog trainer Barbara Woodhouse. (Thanks to her, I still say "Walkies!") Don't know how many remember her TV show, "Training Dogs the Woodhouse Way" or her books, among them the bestseller, "No Bad Dogs." Anyway, I was taking a nostalgic look on-line for her. Made me think how celebrity trainers aren't so brand spanking new. And of course neither is controversy. Times change and schools of thought do too. This video of 1980's happenings offers snippets of Barbara and her training. (Halfway through it switches to other '80's phenomenon.) Found a zany video spoof of her too, but I'll spare you that. 
BBC - I Love 1980 - Barbara Woodhouse "Training Dogs" - YouTube


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## cookieface

Dunbar wrote about his association with Millan on his web site, My Contribution to Cesar Millan's New Book

Two relevant quotes:


> Kelly, Jamie and I gave it a lot of thought before agreeing to volunteering our time to be interviewed — weighing up the pros and cons of association versus exposure. Obviously, any book with Cesar’s name on it is destined to be a best seller, no matter what the content. Since any content is guaranteed enormous exposure, we thought, why not have reward-based training techniques get the exposure. I was very reassured to find out that my respected colleague and good buddy Bob Bailey was also involved and I finally agreed to be interviewed and filmed after being given full veto power over the manuscript, photos and filming. However, with the exception of the photo (mentioned below), veto-power was unnecessary. _In all the times that I have been interviewed and filmed, I have never had my words and actions presented so accurately — almost word for word_. (emphasis mine)





> I have always thought, that I can do so much more good for dogs by engaging those who use dog training techniques of which I strongly disapprove, rather than simply preaching to the choir. Having read the book, I am glad that I decided to be involved. I was given free rein to say what I liked and do what I liked — an extremely unusual arrangement when dealing with television production companies.


It was difficult to select only two comments from his brief post because every word speaks volumes. To me, Dunbar's comments on his experience with Millan reveal the integrity of both men and their true dedication to doing what they believe to be best for dogs and their owners.


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## Grandma's Boys

I remember Barbara very well.


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## cookieface

I came across this piece earlier today and thought it might be relevant.
The Role of Ethics in Discussions of Dog Training 



> _The Role of Ethics in Discussions of Dog Training_
> 
> This blog post was widely shared in the dog training community a couple of weeks ago:
> 
> What is the "Proper" Way to Hurt a Dog? | Your Pit Bull and You
> 
> The post was well-written and it raised some great points, but one phrase stood out to me: “my ethics are mine and yours are yours”. I immediately took issues with this because it appeared to be equating “ethics” with “moral relativism”; as if my ethical beliefs are like my opinions - something I am entitled to whether or not they make any sense.
> 
> Ethical beliefs are not like opinions, they’re not vague statements of “stuff I feel” that nobody has the right to question. Ethics is a discipline that follows logical rules and, theoretically at least, generates principles that are justifiable to any rational person. There might be disagreement over premises, but this doesn't mean there's no possibility of debate.
> 
> In fact, I strongly believe that talking about ethics is important in dog training just because it forces people to confront their own beliefs in a rational way, rather than walling them off behind "well I'm entitled to my beliefs and it's all subjective anyway". The principles that inform dog training, like the desire to create strong, healthy relationships between dogs and their owners, are too important to be waved away as mere subjectivity.
> 
> Most people become dog trainers because they care about the welfare of dogs. They therefore have ethical principles about how we ought to care for dogs; giving them the skills they need to live in a human world through training is part of animal welfare. I would contend that almost all dog owners and professionals who work with dogs share the principle that causing a dog unnecessary suffering is wrong, and we have a duty to prevent it.
> 
> But caring alone isn’t a guarantee of morally right action. Being ill-informed about what dogs are and how they learn can lead to a course of action that is, strictly speaking, ethical insofar as the trainer is trying to do the right thing, but it’s still wrong because the facts it draws on are mistaken. Not understanding the ways a dog shows us that he is suffering, for example, can lead to misinterpreting being shut down through chronic fear for “calm submission”. It’s not enough to believe that unnecessary suffering is wrong if you can’t recognize it when you see it. An ethical dog trainer understands dogs and brings this knowledge to bear when choosing a course of action.
> 
> We can criticize arguments about whether an approach or a tool is morally right without insulting anyone or resorting to something like “if you do this you’re a monster” - a sentiment I’ve run across too many times in discussions with trainers. Discussing ethical principles should not be taken as an instant ad hominem attack. By paying attention to what the underlying ethical principles in an argument are, the conception of what a dog is that informs those principles, and the logic behind the argument we can judge whether a trainer is making the right decision in the tools he chooses to use.


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## Chagall's mom

*cookieface*: Your post says it all! _Thank you!! :thumb:
_


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## patk

cookieface, i clicked on the links you kindly provided in order to find out a bit more about the author(s). i found nothing indicating any expertise in behavior, philosophy, canine development, etc. so i kind of feel free to respond in kind as a total non-expert.

first, here's a definition of ethics from the Oxford dictionary:

* noun *



 1_ [usually treated as plural]_ Moral principles that govern a person’s or group’s behavior: _Judeo-Christian ethics_More example sentencesSynonyms
 1.1The moral correctness of specified conduct: _the ethics of euthanasia_More example sentences
 2_ [usually treated as singular]_ The branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles.Schools of ethics in Western philosophy can be divided, very roughly, into three sorts. The first, drawing on the work of Aristotle, holds that the virtues (such as justice, charity, and generosity) are dispositions to act in ways that benefit both the person possessing them and that person’s society. The second, defended particularly by Kant, makes the concept of duty central to morality: humans are bound, from a knowledge of their duty as rational beings, to obey the categorical imperative to respect other rational beings. Thirdly, utilitarianism asserts that the guiding principle of conduct should be the greatest happiness or benefit of the greatest number



so if we accept what the oxford dictionary has to say, there are, in western culture, schools of ethical thought and i think we may even conclude that they don't all treat the issue of pain in the same way. but putting that aside, let's say that we all at least agree with the general premise of the writer of the blog post you cited.

then i have to ask, is it fair, even agreeing with the blogger's general premise, to ask how ethical it is to accuse someone of something without knowing it to be true? the flat statement that a dog is not displaying calm submission but is shutting down is based on what? we know it happens, i assume, but do we know that it always happens and that's the only conclusion that can be reached about a dog's behavior after a harsh correction? or could different dogs react differently? could it be that a truly ethical person would say, i think there's a possibility that what is happening is that the dog is shutting down and these are the behaviors i witnessed that lead me to that conclusion and these are how they differ from what one would observe in a relaxed, submissive dog?

could it be that when someone accuses a trainer of using "flooding" and states categorically that it is harmful, one doesn't know that flooding is a carefully used but accepted technique in the treatment of humans with deep-seated fears and because one doesn't know, one could be making a false accusation? i assume i was guilty of using mini-flooding on my dog when he was very young. we were on a walk and came across large black barrels. he stopped and would not approach. rather than walk away or drag him by the leash, i picked him up, walked over to one of the barrels and asked him to "nose it." then i put him down and he walked by the remaining barrels without a second look. might not have worked on another dog. i have no idea. but i suspect what i did was a small version of flooding. no treats, no slow approaches, no desensitization. just put his nose right near the barrel.

i refer once again to marc bekoff's article in which he raises the issue of whether we really know dogs don't feel guilt and shame or whether we just think they don't. it's a profound question, imo, because it goes to the issue of our continuing assumption of supremacy when it comes to knowledge and the concomitant issue of own behavior towards our dogs.

as a simple dog owner, i have asked myself: how ethical is it to use hunger to train an animal? because that is what a lot of the positive reinforcement treat trainers do. i have suggested to people whose dogs are not food motived that they cut back on feeding, and no one at pf has risen up to slap my hand. but when i think of sea world and dolphin and orca training, i am filled with the sense that starvation and the threat of the same is behind much of the success of clicker/positive reinforcement training. of course, i object anyway to using these animals for our entertainment, so that feeling undoubtedly informs my view of things.

i really suggest if anyone wants to consider the ethics of our behavior toward animals, one read marc bekoff. he's actually a bleeding heart on the issue - a vegan, someone who stopped his medical studies because he couldn't envision himself cutting up an animal, has actually been known to rub shoulders with some of the peta types (anathema around here) - and i can't live the way he lives, either. but if anyone embodies what is ethical, lives and breathes it, i think it's bekoff. he would definitely be against the use of pain; but he would ask what we know and how we can be sure. and i doubt he would be fingerpointing and making accusations without knowing. you can be a bleeding heart and a rigorous thinker - or at least, bekoff can.


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## Caniche

Chagall's mom said:


> Care to share your own opinion? I'm not clowning around here,:clown: just interested!



Sorry - I meant to get back to this thread and my dogs took over my life...shocking, I know. 

I believe some of his practices work. I use his method when walking Ryker, who pulls, by giving a small tug to the side with his leash (he wears a harness) and making a noise. Ryker has improved tremendously on walks.
I also agree with his calm-submissive state of mind.

I do have problems with how he handles aggressive dogs. Many times he takes them to his "center" where he physically exhausts them and then returns them to his owner. I don't think that he realistically teaches the owners. I've watched more Victoria Stillwell than Cesar, but Stillwell is more blunt and realistic but tells owners "this dog is dangerous and needs to go." Because, unless you're a professional dog handler, many people should not have an aggressive dog in their house. Cesar believes that every dog can be rehabilitated - and I know this sounds bad - but with other dogs, children, and people walking around, I don't believe that an aggressive dog is ever completely changed. I wouldn't be willing to risk someone's life on it.




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## lily cd re

Caniche said:


> Sorry - I meant to get back to this thread and my dogs took over my life...shocking, I know.
> 
> I believe some of his practices work. I use his method when walking Ryker, who pulls, by giving a small tug to the side with his leash (he wears a harness) and making a noise. Ryker has improved tremendously on walks.
> I also agree with his calm-submissive state of mind.
> 
> I do have problems with how he handles aggressive dogs. *Many times he takes them to his "center" where he physically exhausts them and then returns them to his owner. *I don't think that he realistically teaches the owners. I've watched more Victoria Stillwell than Cesar, but Stillwell is more blunt and realistic but tells owners "this dog is dangerous and needs to go." Because, unless you're a professional dog handler, many people should not have an aggressive dog in their house. Cesar believes that every dog can be rehabilitated - and I know this sounds bad - but with other dogs, children, and people walking around, I don't believe that an aggressive dog is ever completely changed. I wouldn't be willing to risk someone's life on it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Ian Dunbar commented about Cesar's practice of bringing dogs to his center to rehab. It was Ian's feeling that most of what happens at the center is that the pack (more than the people) stabilizes the "rehabber" while they are in the pack. In other words the pack shuns the poor behavior of the new dog until the new dog figures out that to play with these other dogs it has to act like a "normal" dog with good dog manners. His comment about the likelihood of the dog reverting to its old ways when it returns home is what caught my ear's attention. Think about it, dogs are contextual learners. The dog goes home and goes back to the context where all its bad behaviors have their roots. I would hope that the owners get as much "training" about how to bring the dog home and avoid relapse as the dog gets.


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## poolann

Caniche said:


> Sorry - I meant to get back to this thread and my dogs took over my life...shocking, I know.
> 
> I believe some of his practices work. I use his method when walking Ryker, who pulls, by giving a small tug to the side with his leash (he wears a harness) and making a noise. Ryker has improved tremendously on walks.
> I also agree with his calm-submissive state of mind.
> 
> I do have problems with how he handles aggressive dogs. Many times he takes them to his "center" where he physically exhausts them and then returns them to his owner. I don't think that he realistically teaches the owners. I've watched more Victoria Stillwell than Cesar, but Stillwell is more blunt and realistic but tells owners "this dog is dangerous and needs to go." Because, unless you're a professional dog handler, many people should not have an aggressive dog in their house. Cesar believes that every dog can be rehabilitated - and I know this sounds bad - but with other dogs, children, and people walking around, I don't believe that an aggressive dog is ever completely changed. I wouldn't be willing to risk someone's life on it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I've seen many instances lately of dogs that have been or are in the process of being rehabbed and they go off without warning causing serious injury. I know of 3 dogs right now that the owners are not qualified to handle. They have not caused injury YET. They are aggressive and of a breed/size that causes a definite danger. All 3 are from the same litter. It is a sad situation for all involved. I truly believe there are no bad dogs. They have been created through breeding or mistreatment. The 3 I know of are not a product of their environment so u have to put it back on the breeding. They would need to be placed with a professional to live out their lives and could never be fully trustworthy. As the situation stands right now they are bombs waiting to go off.
Should all animals be rehabbed? I think the answer is no but it is not the dog's fault. It is through the disservice of people that made them what they are. Again through either breeding or environment. 

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## Chagall's mom

Reposted my thoughts below!


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## lily cd re

poolann I agree with you that it all comes back to the people through either their handling of the individual animal or the less than stellar choices some breeders make. I also think that there are some dogs that are simply too dangerous to be allowed to live. I admire people who are dedicated to rescue and rehab, but sometimes think they are too devoted to their goal to see the real story of their dogs. I have written elsewhere about my friend whose daughter and SIL' GSD mix bit her (my friend) badly enough for her to require a full thickness skin graft. Since that happened I learned from another friend who know the SIL well that the same dog bit the daughter and tried to go through a closed window to get to someone on the sidewalk. The SIL blames all of these incidents to external factors, but the only common element in them is the dog. This dog is an Ian Dunbar level 4 biter and will keep up its dangerous behavior until the end of its life. The young couple has no children and the daughter is risking her fertility delaying having children until the dog is dead (which should have happened the day after sending my friend to the hospital).


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## Chagall's mom

Caniche said:


> Sorry - I meant to get back to this thread and my dogs took over my life...shocking, I know.
> 
> I believe some of his practices work. I use his method when walking Ryker, who pulls, by giving a small tug to the side with his leash (he wears a harness) and making a noise. Ryker has improved tremendously on walks.
> 
> I also agree with his calm-submissive state of mind.
> 
> I do have problems with how he handles aggressive dogs. Many times he takes them to his "center" where he physically exhausts them and then returns them to his owner. I don't think that he realistically teaches the owners. I've watched more Victoria Stillwell than Cesar, but Stillwell is more blunt and realistic but tells owners "this dog is dangerous and needs to go." Because, unless you're a professional dog handler, many people should not have an aggressive dog in their house. Cesar believes that every dog can be rehabilitated - and I know this sounds bad - but with other dogs, children, and people walking around, I don't believe that an aggressive dog is ever completely changed. I wouldn't be willing to risk someone's life on


Glad to hear your thoughts,* Caniche*! (Mine are a bit different, but that's kool! ) I do think that in some cases, euthanasia is called for. But that's probably a topic for a whole 'nother thread. I usually find Victoria Stillwell's approaches extremely useful. Good to hear you use a harness to walk your toy boys, so smart to protect their sensitive necks. :thumb: (BTW, there's an interesting article on the wisdom of doing so here. https://dogmantics.com/2013/07/17/is-it-harmful-to-attach-a-leash-to-your-dogs-neck-2/.) Oh, and here's a suggestion for training leash manners. How to teach a dog not to pull on leash: Leash walking - YouTube


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## liljaker

Caniche: 
Your first paragraph about "some of his methods work" is IMO not a "Ceasar method" but a method used by many trainers. My last obedience trainer used the same technique when teaching my last poodle, Jake, to walk on a leash......basically, a little "pop" which is really nothing more than to get the dog's attention -- never a yank -- and then when you have his attention, showing him the correct way. So, I will admit that I have never read any of the methods he claims to be his, but I don't think that is his method, per se, but a method?? 

Also, I don't think people generally have any issues with training methods that work unless you are actually being cruel and hurting a dog -- which, is my issue with him and I have seen enough videos where he was overly aggressive and IMO cruel to the animal. Whether it was justified or not (in my opinion it never is) that's my issue there and no amount of discussion will change that. Also, I personally think he enjoys all the attention from his controversial methods, too, since it gets people talking about him and ultimately sells his merchandise. Just my opinion here -- like I said, I never really paid too much attention to him since I have always used positive reinforcement training only.


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## Wild Kitten

lily cd re said:


> Ian Dunbar commented about Cesar's practice of bringing dogs to his center to rehab. It was Ian's feeling that most of what happens at the center is that the pack (more than the people) stabilizes the "rehabber" while they are in the pack. In other words the pack shuns the poor behavior of the new dog until the new dog figures out that to play with these other dogs it has to act like a "normal" dog with good dog manners. *His comment about the likelihood of the dog reverting to its old ways when it returns home is what caught my ear's attention. Think about it, dogs are contextual learners. The dog goes home and goes back to the context where all its bad behaviors have their roots.* I would hope that the owners get as much "training" about how to bring the dog home and avoid relapse as the dog gets.



Well that's exactly what I said before too..... they are never really "rehabilitated because the cause of their behaviour is not removed and the owners don't have the same tools Cesar has....... so while he is in their house bullies and intimidates the dog..... the dog "behaves" - when he leaves the behaviour will return .... and the owners trying to copy his techniques will get hurt.... and the dog will be put down by the end anyway. 

Same goes for his ranch rehabilitation thing....... while the dog is within the pack, they are taken out of their original situation - so the reason for their bad behaviour is removed, so they behave differently, if he is keeping the dog he has taken in, most likely the dog stays "good" for the rest of his life, but the ones that he only takes for a short while, once they are back home - all will return sooner or later - the causes will be still there so the behaviour will come back too ..... the fix lasts while the filming is going on, which is all he needs to make money. 

The positive techniques might take longer to work but they last longer too and are much safer for the owners to learn and do.

And as said above, I also think that some dogs are just "too far gone" to rehabilitate and it is kinder to put them down.


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## cookieface

Patk, which links did I provide that were not written by someone not considered knowledgeable in their field? Or, perhaps the question should be what would it take for you to consider someone knowledgeable in their field?

Gail Laule - master's degree in behavioral science
Mollie Bloomsmith - PhD researcher at Yerkes National Primate Research Center
Steven J Schapiro - associate professor, veterinary sciences, MD Anderson Center
Sebastian McBride - PhD, Associate Lecturer, Equine Science 
Sophia Yin - veterinarian, animal behaviorist
Debra Horwitz, DVM, DACVB & Gary Landsberg, DVM, DACVB, DECAWBM - veterinary behaviorists
A. Haverbekea, B. Laporteb, E. Depiereuxc, J.-M. Giffroya, C. Diedericha - Laboratory of Anatomy and Ethology of Domestic Animals, University of Namur 
dogs+ethics blogger - Master's in Practical Ethics; PhD in ethics
Janice Bradley of the The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers is the only one without academic credentials in animal or behavioral science.


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## patk

cookieface said:


> Patk, which links did I provide that were not written by someone not considered knowledgeable in their field? Or, perhaps the question should be what would it take for you to consider someone knowledgeable in their field?
> 
> Gail Laule - master's degree in behavioral science
> Mollie Bloomsmith - PhD researcher at Yerkes National Primate Research Center
> Steven J Schapiro - associate professor, veterinary sciences, MD Anderson Center
> Sebastian McBride - PhD, Associate Lecturer, Equine Science
> Sophia Yin - veterinarian, animal behaviorist
> Debra Horwitz, DVM, DACVB & Gary Landsberg, DVM, DACVB, DECAWBM - veterinary behaviorists
> A. Haverbekea, B. Laporteb, E. Depiereuxc, J.-M. Giffroya, C. Diedericha - Laboratory of Anatomy and Ethology of Domestic Animals, University of Namur
> dogs+ethics blogger - Master's in Practical Ethics; PhD in ethics
> Janice Bradley of the The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers is the only one without academic credentials in animal or behavioral science.


not sure to what you are referring??? i believe i praised you for your post??? 



patk said:


> _i'm glad to see cookieface's post with many citations, because finally one of the positive only folks is starting to get atlflier's point: no one is going to be convinced by being berated or browbeaten. people will choose on their own, and solid information is important to choice._ i've seen some of the positive only advocates at pf yelling at people who don't do what they believe should be done, treating them with contempt, and finally driving some away. the kind of thing that makes one wrinkle one's nose in disgust.
> 
> we've come to a place where some of the basic tents of dog training are actually starting to come into question - by some of the most well-known experts in dog/animal behavior, to wit, ian dunbar and marc bekoff, among others. i don't say this as a defense of cesar millan's methods, which i'm pretty sure neither dunbar nor bekoff would advocate (though dunbar is a prominent participant in millan's latest book, cesar's rules), but to point out that anyone making a claim to expertise on behavior and dog training could end up on very shaky ground with regard to some of their claims.
> 
> positive reinforcement advocates should stop being smug, ranting, raving and lecturing others. because some of that has just made clear how little some of them really know about kindness, generosity and treating their fellow human beings respectfully - let alone about truthfulness. it's more productive to treat people as gently as one claims dogs should be treated. and if one doesn't, one should not be surprised if both people and dogs bite back.


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## patk

lily cd re said:


> Ian Dunbar commented about Cesar's practice of bringing dogs to his center to rehab. It was Ian's feeling that most of what happens at the center is that the pack (more than the people) stabilizes the "rehabber" while they are in the pack. In other words the pack shuns the poor behavior of the new dog until the new dog figures out that to play with these other dogs it has to act like a "normal" dog with good dog manners. His comment about the likelihood of the dog reverting to its old ways when it returns home is what caught my ear's attention. Think about it, dogs are contextual learners. The dog goes home and goes back to the context where all its bad behaviors have their roots. I would hope that the owners get as much "training" about how to bring the dog home and avoid relapse as the dog gets.





Carley's Mom said:


> I would not use the same type of training on every dog. Every dog is different. My Carley wants to please, a frown on my face is enough for her. Stella needs more.... I have never hit a dog before Stella. A raised voice was enough, that's why I let Carley get jumped on for a year before I put a stop to it. Some dogs are all about me, could care less about what you want. I did not know that. I thought if you loved your dogs and treated them kind, you would be treated the same... WRONG ! Stella took a strong hand and she has come around now. She is not even like the same dog ! I so much enjoy her now, and I was ready to re-home her. So glad I had the guts to do what needed to be done.


i am juxtaposing these two posts for one reason: to highlight the difference between speculation and fact. (i respect ian dunbar, but i would respect him more if he cited actual incidents to support his hypothesis - note i am not saying he is wrong, i'm just saying that there's a difference between fact and hypothesis - and i agree with lily cd re that owners need training.) carley's mom, if i recalled correctly, has been personally attacked on these boards a couple of times for pointing out what happened with her dog. but what happened is a fact. does that mean it would work with every owner and every dog? i doubt it. but it worked for her and her dog, and that is a fact, not a hypothesis. so far, her dog has not reverted to attacking the other dog in the household; it didn't even go through "rehab" and remains in carley's mom's household.

i am not arguing here for using force on all dogs. and i do tend toward the belief that in general meeting aggression with aggression may not be the cure. but i am also saying dogs are individuals. what works for one may not work for another. this is one reason i don't subscribe to just ian dunbar or just cesar millan. both imo have something to offer and both can sometimes go a bit too far in assuming when they don't really know. in the end, it comes down to the individual owner and the individual dog. (once again, i suggest reading marc bekoff on the problems with speciesism - fitting every animal into a stereotype rather than dealing with the individual.)


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## lily cd re

patk, I am sure Dr. Dunbar has some evidence on what I attributed to him. I just don't have it at hand myself to share here. I do agree with you that evidence is the path to truth though. It is one of the foundations of all facets of my life as a scientist. And you are correct that Carley's Mom provided evidence based on her experience and that she has observed lasting results from the action she took. I think she would agree that her solution is not a universal solution. As much as we can study the four quadrants and gather evidence, when you have a problem with paws on the ground in front of you you have to take action based on your evaluation of all facets of the situation and your empirical knowledge to make a plan of action.


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## Wild Kitten

patk said:


> not sure to what you are referring??? i believe i praised you for your post???


maybe this? 



patk said:


> *cookieface, i clicked on the links you kindly provided in order to find out a bit more about the author(s). i found nothing indicating any expertise in behavior, philosophy, canine development, etc. *so i kind of feel free to respond in kind as a total non-expert.can.


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## Countryboy

Lol, Wild Woman... keep that ol' pot boiling eh?  

'Cept that really, this has nothing to do with dog training. It only serves as a rebuttal to the argument. Dog training methods are interesting. U ladies one-upping each other is not.

Actually, I'm enjoying the comments. We've got a lot of smart ladies in this group... and I'm learning sumthin'.


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## Wild Kitten

Here is a discussion I found interesting. 







It also raises a few valid points, like "If it is in the TV it got to be right" and "The society is desensitized to violence and harsh training methods" 
Or the one where they point out that abuse almost always starts from animals..... then it progresses to children and women .....


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## patk

Wild Kitten said:


> maybe this? Originally Posted by *patk*
> _*cookieface, i clicked on the links you kindly provided in order to find out a bit more about the author(s). i found nothing indicating any expertise in behavior, philosophy, canine development, etc. *so i kind of feel free to respond in kind as a total non-expert.can._


i actually think cookieface is a big girl and has shown she's very capable of answering for herself, but just to keep the record straight, here's what i really said in response to one specific post on ethics where i could not track the author's credentials by clicking on the links - notice the black boldfaced sentence which essentially says, but, okay, let's accept the premise. so why try to distort my intent? 



patk said:


> cookieface, i clicked on the links you kindly provided in order to find out a bit more about the author(s). i found nothing indicating any expertise in behavior, philosophy, canine development, etc. so i kind of feel free to respond in kind as a total non-expert.
> 
> first, here's a definition of ethics from the Oxford dictionary:
> 
> * noun *
> 
> 
> 
> 1_ [usually treated as plural]_ Moral principles that govern a person’s or group’s behavior: _Judeo-Christian ethics_More example sentencesSynonyms
> 1.1The moral correctness of specified conduct: _the ethics of euthanasia_More example sentences
> 2_ [usually treated as singular]_ The branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles.Schools of ethics in Western philosophy can be divided, very roughly, into three sorts. The first, drawing on the work of Aristotle, holds that the virtues (such as justice, charity, and generosity) are dispositions to act in ways that benefit both the person possessing them and that person’s society. The second, defended particularly by Kant, makes the concept of duty central to morality: humans are bound, from a knowledge of their duty as rational beings, to obey the categorical imperative to respect other rational beings. Thirdly, utilitarianism asserts that the guiding principle of conduct should be the greatest happiness or benefit of the greatest number
> 
> 
> 
> so if we accept what the oxford dictionary has to say, there are, in western culture, schools of ethical thought and i think we may even conclude that they don't all treat the issue of pain in the same way. *but putting that aside, let's say that we all at least agree with the general premise of the writer of the blog post you cited.*
> 
> then i have to ask, is it fair, even agreeing with the blogger's general premise, to ask how ethical it is to accuse someone of something without knowing it to be true? the flat statement that a dog is not displaying calm submission but is shutting down is based on what? we know it happens, i assume, but do we know that it always happens and that's the only conclusion that can be reached about a dog's behavior after a harsh correction? or could different dogs react differently? could it be that a truly ethical person would say, i think there's a possibility that what is happening is that the dog is shutting down and these are the behaviors i witnessed that lead me to that conclusion and these are how they differ from what one would observe in a relaxed, submissive dog?
> 
> could it be that when someone accuses a trainer of using "flooding" and states categorically that it is harmful, one doesn't know that flooding is a carefully used but accepted technique in the treatment of humans with deep-seated fears and because one doesn't know, one could be making a false accusation? i assume i was guilty of using mini-flooding on my dog when he was very young. we were on a walk and came across large black barrels. he stopped and would not approach. rather than walk away or drag him by the leash, i picked him up, walked over to one of the barrels and asked him to "nose it." then i put him down and he walked by the remaining barrels without a second look. might not have worked on another dog. i have no idea. but i suspect what i did was a small version of flooding. no treats, no slow approaches, no desensitization. just put his nose right near the barrel.
> 
> i refer once again to marc bekoff's article in which he raises the issue of whether we really know dogs don't feel guilt and shame or whether we just think they don't. it's a profound question, imo, because it goes to the issue of our continuing assumption of supremacy when it comes to knowledge and the concomitant issue of own behavior towards our dogs.
> 
> as a simple dog owner, i have asked myself: *how ethical is it to use hunger to train an animal?* because that is what a lot of the positive reinforcement treat trainers do. i have suggested to people whose dogs are not food motived that they cut back on feeding, and no one at pf has risen up to slap my hand. but when i think of sea world and dolphin and orca training, i am filled with the sense that starvation and the threat of the same is behind much of the success of clicker/positive reinforcement training. of course, i object anyway to using these animals for our entertainment, so that feeling undoubtedly informs my view of things.
> 
> i really suggest if anyone wants to consider the ethics of our behavior toward animals, one read marc bekoff. he's actually a bleeding heart on the issue - a vegan, someone who stopped his medical studies because he couldn't envision himself cutting up an animal, has actually been known to rub shoulders with some of the peta types (anathema around here) - and i can't live the way he lives, either. but if anyone embodies what is ethical, lives and breathes it, i think it's bekoff. he would definitely be against the use of pain; but he would ask what we know and how we can be sure. and i doubt he would be fingerpointing and making accusations without knowing. you can be a bleeding heart and a rigorous thinker - or at least, bekoff can.


instead of beating a dead horse (einstein did note that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity) and trying to drag victoria stillwell in, who has already been substantially discredited earlier in this thread as dishonest, why not, if you are making claims to be a spokesperson for positive only training, answer the question i've highlighted in red above. this is not the first time i've asked it. it has never been answered, afaik, let alone answered to my satisfaction. that's an essential bit of dishonesty lying at the heart of all the positive only pronouncements that certainly does not make me more trusting that people really know what they are doing and are not just parroting stuff they prefer to believe means they are good and godly rather than examining whether what they are doing is ethical.


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## Wild Kitten

I'm not the one who tries to distort other people's intent ..... the sentence I highlighted was the reason why cookieface provided all those credentials in one post..... Because you said that you could not find them  

In regards of your "intent" (as pointed out above) 



patk said:


> as a simple dog owner, i have asked myself: *how ethical is it to use hunger to train an animal?* because that is what a lot of the positive reinforcement treat trainers do. i have suggested to people whose dogs are not food motived that they cut back on feeding, and no one at pf has risen up to slap my hand. but when i think of sea world and dolphin and orca training, i am filled with the sense that starvation and the threat of the same is behind much of the success of clicker/positive reinforcement training. of course, i object anyway to using these animals for our entertainment, so that feeling undoubtedly informs my view of things.


Nowhere in positive reward based training is it stated that you have to use food as a reward.
You find what triggers your dog, be it food or toys, a game and you use that. 

Also, in using food, nowhere does it say that you got to starve an animal in order to train it. 
So what if you reduce the food portion in order to train? That is actually a good thing otherwise you would end up with an obese dog, which can't be good for him. (One common mistake people with fat pets say - we feed the right amount, it is just the treats...... want to treat or reward a dog, calculate those in his daily portion amount.) 

All animals - people included - get hungry at regular intervals, just time your training for or before the feeding times...... or feed all through the day while training so that way your dog will get the right amount of food .... it will never starve. Use your common sense (if you got any). 





patk said:


> instead of beating a dead horse (einstein did note that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity)


You sure should learn from that, because that is what you are doing over and over, instead of thinking about what we are saying, all you seem to do is pick fights by demanding "credentials" and trying to discredit everything.... lol

I think I'm done with this topic..... some people just enjoy too much the cruel methods and abuse to even consider that there can be other - kinder and safer ways that actually work better.


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## patk

so that's the answer? hunger is not harmful? hunger is not abusive? oh, well, then, leash popping is not harmful, either. i guess it's all a matter of some self-proclaimed expert declaring what something is or isn't. which, in fact, is pretty much what jean donaldson said about dog training being the wild west.

and, yes, you're right. i don't think you and a lot of others professing to know about behavior have the credentials to even begin to set yourselves up as knowledgeable on the issues of animal behavior and training, let alone as judges of others. i think you've proven that to a lot of people reading this thread. thanks for that.


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## Grandma's Boys

I was trying to stay out of the rest of this tread, but just could not resist one more comment. When you reach my age, you realize, very few things in life are , as the old saying goes, Black (all bad, wrong) or White (all good, right). Most things fall into the large range of grays, in between, thus being open to opinion, and interpretation. We are all untitled to our interpretations and opinions. And believe me, by now we all know, where we stand. Another old saying goes, never discus politics or religion, I am going to add one more topic to that list!


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## Caniche

Chagall's mom said:


> Glad to hear your thoughts,* Caniche*! (Mine are a bit different, but that's kool! ) I do think that in some cases, euthanasia is called for. But that's probably a topic for a whole 'nother thread. I usually find Victoria Stillwell's approaches extremely useful. Good to hear you use a harness to walk your toy boys, so smart to protect their sensitive necks. :thumb: (BTW, there's an interesting article on the wisdom of doing so here. https://dogmantics.com/2013/07/17/is-it-harmful-to-attach-a-leash-to-your-dogs-neck-2/.) Oh, and here's a suggestion for training leash manners. How to teach a dog not to pull on leash: Leash walking - YouTube


My comments were made before I read the posts upon posts that you all have shared. I didn't know that I'd start such a debate! (That being said, as long as everyone remains civil, I'm always good for a discussion. It's all about learning new things and remaining open to ideas.)

Now that I've read everyone else's opinion, I want to clarify my stance on a few things...

First of all, I have tried everything with Ryker when it comes to leash pulling. I've tried gentle leaders, harnesses that attach to the side, harnesses that attach to the front, obedience class, walking in the opposite direction every time he pulls (such as Victoria Stillwell does), etc. etc. etc. So the slight tug to the side and an "ah" sound seems to work - Ryker went for a walk today and pulled twice. Every other instance was a loose-leash experience. This may have nothing to do with CM's methods - this could be because Ryker is going blind and is more uncertain walking now, so he's sticking close to me. Until he's recovered from his future surgery, I won't give CM all the credit.

I do think that there is a difference in the calm-submissive state in reality and the one that CM "utilizes." I think, when the cameras are rolling, that the calm-submissive state is oftentimes learned helplessness. I do believe that dogs learn better and quicker when they're in a natural calm-submissive state (meaning that they're not jumping all over the place). 

And yes, I completely agree that some aggressive dogs need to be put down. The majority of owners, in my opinion, who work "normal" lives with careers and families cannot devote the time required to rehabilitate a truly aggressive dog. This, of course, is not the dog's fault but mostly due to poor breeding (such as in pitbulls and rottweilers and german shepherds) and poor ownership. Not everyone is equipped to deal with an aggressive dog. And no offense meant here, but when it comes to a shelter dog and one has a history of bites and the other was just dumped by its owner, who do you think deserves the second chance more? I'm not saying that the bite is the dog's fault - in many instances, again in my opinion, the human usually unknowingly facilitates the situation. That being said, the non-aggressive dog is a better investment unless the owner has a history of rehabilitating aggressive dogs. 

And I've always used harnesses. :amen:


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## Chagall's mom

Caniche said:


> My comments were made before I read the posts upon posts that you all have shared. I didn't know that I'd start such a debate!


 No worries! The Cesar rumbles, I mean conversations, seem to run in cycles here. Don't think there's been one for a while so we were due.  


Caniche said:


> I have tried everything with Ryker when it comes to leash pulling.


 I know that can be frustrating! I once had a dog I'd describe as having a "leash problem." She'd walk next to me in an almost perfect heel _off_ leash, but when the leash was snapped on, _no dice!_ I too tried different harnesses (and collars) and leashes, etc. This was back in the early 1970's before resources like Poodle Forum, Dogstar Daily, kikopup and others were even around to help. Just know I _do_ understand what it feels like to try what seems like _everything under the sun_, things that work for others, but not for you.


Caniche said:


> Ryker is going blind and is more uncertain walking now, so he's sticking close to me.


When our last dog lost her sight, I wore a little band of jingling bells (_yup,_ I did!) nearly 24/7. I don't know if it actually helped her navigate or reassured her in anyway, or if doing it just made _me _feel better. But hey, this PF, and we all share so I did! (I also sprayed scents on the stair risers and around the legs of some of the furniture. We dog people are something, aren't we?!)


Caniche said:


> And yes, I completely agree that some aggressive dogs need to be put down.


 Seems to be a view shared by others here as well. 


Caniche said:


> And I've always used harnesses.


 My vet would praise you for that! He's a staunch advocate of using harnesses on toy dogs.


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## lily cd re

For tips on leash pulling and other tools for dealing with it see my new Ian Dunbar tip in the thread I started in general training.


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## patk

Caniche said:


> First of all, I have tried everything with Ryker when it comes to leash pulling. I've tried gentle leaders, harnesses that attach to the side, harnesses that attach to the front, obedience class, walking in the opposite direction every time he pulls (such as Victoria Stillwell does), etc. etc. etc. So the slight tug to the side and an "ah" sound seems to work - Ryker went for a walk today and pulled twice. Every other instance was a loose-leash experience. This may have nothing to do with CM's methods - this could be because Ryker is going blind and is more uncertain walking now, so he's sticking close to me. Until he's recovered from his future surgery, I won't give CM all the credit.
> 
> :amen:


i believe the leash pop and most of what cesar does are not cesar inventions. trainers other than cesar have used just about everything he does for years - well before he came along. he really didn't invent everything, nor do i think he has claimed to do so. imo what is a cesar trademark (and once, again, he did not invent it, he just named it in a way that people can understand) is "calm assertiveness." that is not about the dog. that is about the owner: the state of mind one needs to be in in order to train effectively. 

when training is not going well, is it generally the fault of the dog or of the trainer? pretty sure what just about everyone at pf would say. but i don't think a lot of new owners would have realized that without watching the dog whisperer. the same perception of owners, imo, is really behind rule 1 of ian dunbar's seven rules (p. 191 of "cesar's rules"): _"When selecting a puppy of eight weeks of age, make sure that he or she is house-trained and chewtoy-trained, has been taught to come, sit, lie down, and roll over on cue, and has been socialized and handled by at least one hundred people."_

what? is dunbar nuts? no. he knows what owner naivete and expectations can be like. for a lot of people, a puppy is like take out - it should be already prepared, because the new owner isn't. maybe that mutual understanding of human nature combined with a genuine love of and respect for dogs was the bridge that allowed dunbar and millan to actually collaborate in "cesar's rules."


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## Chagall's mom

Zig-zagging back to the topic of leash pulling, anyone having a problem with it might benefit from this article, "Teach Your Dog To Not Pull." It offers three clearly explained exercises (borrowing from trainers Lana Mitchell and Morgan Spector) and lots of encouragement. Here's the link. Teach Your Dog To Not Pull 
So many good folks out there to learn from who, IMO, are the real "celebrities" of the dog training world.


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## liljaker

On leash pulling, I also know that the last trainer I used with my Jake when he was a pup (so say, 18 years ago) taught him not to pull literally in one session, when he was about 4/5 months old. She walked with him in one direction....when he pulled she turned and walked the other way, etc., until she had his attention and then he magically watched her and did not pull....and if he started to a little pop on the leash (not a yank) got his attention and he stopped pulling. I think some dogs get it quicker than others, too. Guess although CM may incorporate some of that into what he calls his training methods, they were being done long before CM came on the scene, too, so I question attributing that to him. Anyway, I do know Jake learned very quickly not to pull. Sunny does not pull, unless on the flexi and he knows he can pull -- I also lock the flexi at 4' on our normal walks --and there is a rabbit under a bush, but is quick to come to my side and won't pull on a 4' lead at all. So, lots depends on the dog, too, but I have always and only used positive reinforcement and it always works.

P.S. That same trainer is who I contacted when I first got Sunny and he slipped his collar when with a dog walker and ran almost 3 miles out of fear! I consulted with Pat, who is now retired, and she counseled me on a getting a solid recall, which I was able to get!!!! So, she does know her stuff.


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## Countryboy

My flexi is both a leash and a clicker. I use the thumb button to slightly engage the rachet inside the cover. It makes quite an audible clicking sound. A slight depression, a click or two, and Tonka will immediately turn and look at me.

Your a brave girl with Sunny tho. Near any traffic with Tonka, I've got the flexi shortened up as much as it will go... abt a foot! lol


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## liljaker

Countryboy said:


> My flexi is both a leash and a clicker. I use the thumb button to slightly engage the rachet inside the cover. It makes quite an audible clicking sound. A slight depression, a click or two, and Tonka will immediately turn and look at me.
> 
> Your a brave girl with Sunny tho. Near any traffic with Tonka, I've got the flexi shortened up as much as it will go... abt a foot! lol


Of course in busy traffic areas, he is always a foot from me. Most of our walking, however, is on sidewalks without much traffic, so he gets to explore......no, I am with you there. No matter how trained a dog is -- traffic, intersections, stores, etc., he is right next to me even on the flexi - shortest distance of about a foot!!!


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## patk

i used flexis when i had two dogs. once i got the female, the rather timid and introverted male became very dog reactive and would start barking whenever we encountered other dogs. the female was a retired show dog and very sociable, so the male's barking wasn't because she needed protection; i think now that it was really resource guarding. to keep the male from seeming threatening to other dogs (he's about the size of a minipoo), whenever i spotted a dog coming our way, i used to shorten the flexis. after a few times, bingo! the male figured it out and as soon as the flexi was shortened, he started looking around for other dogs! 

i think we are often clueless as to the messages we transmit to our dogs and how easily we can do so. dogs pick up signals from us we don't even think of as signals or have no intention of giving. imo, it can be a complicating factor in dog training. the filter for any one dog - what matters, what can be ignored - must be quite interesting. i considered my male dog to be less intelligent than the female (i've already told the story about how she found a treat she loved too thick to chew and brought it back to trade for a thinner one), but that was strictly from a human perspective. very possibly from a dog perspective, the male was/is, in fact, highly intelligent when it mattered to him.


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## Countryboy

patk said:


> after a few times, bingo! the male figured it out and as soon as the flexi was shortened, he started looking around for other dogs!


Haha! Dayum they're smart, eh?


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