# Breeding white with sable? Or phantom with blue?



## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

How can a phantom or a sable be an AKC champion? The poodle standard states that the coat must be an even solid color at the skin.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Are you saying that your sable specifically has the fading gene?
Most sables appear light because/if they are kept trimmed, since the dark tips have been cut off- but if left to grow they would eventually show the dark color again. This is different than fading- which your blue would have one copy of, and therefore pass on to approx 50% of progeny.
The genetic background of white is still largely unknown, but again not the same as fading gene (or sable), and would not combine to lighten the other colors.

As far as specific predictions, a lot would depend on what else each dog carries.
For example the blue x phantom, would result in some blues and blacks at least, and if the blue carries for phantom you could get regular phantom and blue phantom as well. Add in brown versions of all the above if they both carry for brown.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Not enough information to say. We'd need to know what's going on with the K locus and A locus at bare minimum. The A locus is what codes for phantom, agouti, sable, and recessive black. K locus is called "dominant black", but really you should think of it as "does/does not allow A locus to express." A dog that has either one or two copies of "dominant black" on K locus isn't necessarily colored black, but it can't express any of the A locus patterns. So, if either the blue or the white dog is homozygous for dominant black, then it doesn't matter what the dog gets mated to; the pups will all have at least one copy of dominant black and can't be phantom or sable.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Johanna said:


> How can a phantom or a sable be an AKC champion? The poodle standard states that the coat must be an even solid color at the skin.


Maybe it's the blue and the white that are AKC champions? Or it could be that the sable and the phantom are UKC champions? They just said that two of the four dogs were champions, not which ones, nor which organization. 

My blue guy is from a sable x blue phantom breeding. Out of eleven puppies, there were five males, and since I was looking for a male, that's what I'm remembering best. Of those five, there were three solid blues, one phantom, and one sable. The breeder kept a sable girl, and I know that several of the other girls were phantoms.


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## kyliejenner (Sep 22, 2018)

Johanna said:


> How can a phantom or a sable be an AKC champion? The poodle standard states that the coat must be an even solid color at the skin.


The solid white one and the solid blue one is


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## kyliejenner (Sep 22, 2018)

Starvt said:


> Are you saying that your sable specifically has the fading gene?
> Most sables appear light because/if they are kept trimmed, since the dark tips have been cut off- but if left to grow they would eventually show the dark color again. This is different than fading- which your blue would have one copy of, and therefore pass on to approx 50% of progeny.
> The genetic background of white is still largely unknown, but again not the same as fading gene (or sable), and would not combine to lighten the other colors.
> 
> ...


My sable is cream all over with black only being the tail and end of ears. Big white mark on chest as well. She was born much darker but faded to a cream at 1yo

I’ve only ever bred the solids together, never done the phantom nor sable before. so I’m wondering about the multis breeding and what colors I should except.

Blue’s parents were brown and white, White’s parents were both white. I know AKC can be registered as any color so I can’t tell for sure with both of their pedigrees but the other generations have only been creams, whites and blacks with the exception of Blue’s mom being brown.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

As an ethical breeder you would be ordering DNA tests for things like PRA and vonWillebrand's disease before breeding these 4 dogs anyhow. Might as well tack on a test the color genes while you are at it. That would go a long way towards narrowing down the possibilities.


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## kyliejenner (Sep 22, 2018)




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## kyliejenner (Sep 22, 2018)

cowpony said:


> As an ethical breeder you would be ordering DNA tests for things like PRA and vonWillebrand's disease before breeding these 4 dogs anyhow. Might as well tack on a test the color genes while you are at it. That would go a long way towards narrowing down the possibilities.


I posted one of the DNA tests along with the pedigree. I do not understand the DNA test though, which is why I posted on here. I’ve done testings for ofa eyes thyroid and inherited diseases. I do not have an issue with anything other than coloring. I do not want to produce any more solid blacks and solid blues due to my area being over saturated with those colors already


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

That looks like at the kind of DNA panel you would run to verify that the correct parents were recorded; it's not a health screening. More information about how to use the results here: https://www.akc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/DNA-Explanatory-Worksheet.pdf

You can get a full health and color panel done through various labs such as Pawprint, Embark, Wisdom, UCDavis, etc. Are you working with a mentor as you plan these breedings? I can't deny that puppy buyers do care about color. I personally love multi colored poodles; only one of mine has been solid. However, the structure of the dog is also important. I've seen some really ugly poodles recently. One was a stubby legged little phantom that looked like its mother was a hassock. Another was a lanky bony parti that really looked more like a lurcher than a poodle. Color breeding should not produce dogs that look like these.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

kyliejenner said:


> I posted one of the DNA tests along with the pedigree. I do not understand the DNA test though, which is why I posted on here. I’ve done testings for ofa eyes thyroid and inherited diseases. I do not have an issue with anything other than coloring. I do not want to produce any more solid blacks and solid blues due to my area being over saturated with those colors already


That is a DNA identification, which is unique to that dog. Not a test result, which is why it doesn't make sense to you.

The blue will necessarily produce at least half it's pups as blue or black (or brown if the phantom carries brown). It's still impossible to tell what the other half might be even given the pedigree (as an example, my black is descended from blacks, but does actually carry phantom).

The sable x white pairing is totally up in the air. We don't know if the sable carries white (unless a direct parent was white), which would be required to have white pups (would be approx half of then if so).
We also don't know what the white is 'hiding', although likely from the pedigree it has at least one black- which means producing some black pups.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

The white x sable pairing has more of a chance of non- black and blue pups. 
I would do the embark (or similar) on them if you are set on avoiding black and blue though, because one of the possibilities of that pairing is only solid black pups.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I just noticed UCDavis published some new information about their testing earlier this year. Agouti (A Locus) | Veterinary Genetics Laboratory


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## kyliejenner (Sep 22, 2018)

Starvt said:


> That is a DNA identification, which is unique to that dog. Not a test result, which is why it doesn't make sense to you.
> 
> The blue will necessarily produce at least half it's pups as blue or black (or brown if the phantom carries brown). It's still impossible to tell what the other half might be even given the pedigree (as an example, my black is descended from blacks, but does actually carry phantom).
> 
> ...


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## kyliejenner (Sep 22, 2018)

Starvt said:


> That is a DNA identification, which is unique to that dog. Not a test result, which is why it doesn't make sense to you.
> 
> The blue will necessarily produce at least half it's pups as blue or black (or brown if the phantom carries brown). It's still impossible to tell what the other half might be even given the pedigree (as an example, my black is descended from blacks, but does actually carry phantom).
> 
> ...


The sable’s parents were solid white and brown parti, what do you think of this?


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## kyliejenner (Sep 22, 2018)

cowpony said:


> That looks like at the kind of DNA panel you would run to verify that the correct parents were recorded; it's not a health screening. More information about how to use the results here: https://www.akc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/DNA-Explanatory-Worksheet.pdf
> 
> You can get a full health and color panel done through various labs such as Pawprint, Embark, Wisdom, UCDavis, etc. Are you working with a mentor as you plan these breedings? I can't deny that puppy buyers do care about color. I personally love multi colored poodles; only one of mine has been solid. However, the structure of the dog is also important. I've seen some really ugly poodles recently. One was a stubby legged little phantom that looked like its mother was a hassock. Another was a lanky bony parti that really looked more like a lurcher than a poodle. Color breeding should not produce dogs that look like these.


I never said that I posted health screenings on here which does not relate to the colors at all. I posted the DNA panel which you asked for.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Just jumping in to possibly clarify. Many of the DNA health panels allow add-on panels including coat and color panels. The DNA test posted is strictly for individual identification and is nothing to do either with health results or coat/color. I think this is where the communications might have crossed.



cowpony said:


> As an ethical breeder you would be ordering DNA tests for things like PRA and vonWillebrand's disease before breeding these 4 dogs anyhow. Might as well tack on a test the color genes while you are at it. That would go a long way towards narrowing down the possibilities.





kyliejenner said:


> I posted one of the DNA tests along with the pedigree. I do not understand the DNA test though, which is why I posted on here.


This is the coat/color panel from PawPrints

*Coat Color and Trait Tests*
Paw Print Genetics offers testing for common coat colors and traits. Some genes have more than one mutation, such as those genes involved in Agouti and determining a brown coat color. The tests for those variants have been combined for simplicity in ordering. To learn more, just click any of the coat color or trait names below.
*Coat Color Tests – All available tests for all breeds*

Click the test name to learn more*A locus (Agouti)**As Locus (Saddle Tan)**B locus (Brown)**Co Locus (Cocoa, French Bulldog Type)**D Locus (Dilute)*  This test will not determine progressive graying/fading*E Locus - e (Apricot/Cream/Red/Yellow, Common Variant Found in Many Breeds)**E Locus - e2 (Cream, Australian Cattle Dog Type)**E Locus - e3 (White, Alaskan and Siberian Husky Type)**E Locus - eA (Ancient Red, Spitz and Scent Hound Type)**E Locus - Eg (Grizzle, Afghan Hound Type)**E Locus - Eh (Sable, Cocker Spaniel Type)**E Locus - Em (Melanistic Mask)**H Locus (Harlequin, Great Dane Type)**I Locus (Intensity)*  This test will not determine progressive graying/fading*K Locus (Dominant Black)**M Locus (Merle)**S Locus (White Spotting, Parti, or Piebald)*
*Trait Tests – All available tests for all breeds*

Click the test name to learn more*Cu Locus (Curly Hair)**Hr Locus (FOXI3 Hairless Gene Test, Mexican Hairless, Peruvian Hairless and Chinese Crested Type)**IC Locus (Improper Coat/Furnishings)**L Locus (Long Hair/Fluffy) - Lh1 (Common Variant Found in Many Breeds)**L Locus (Long Hair/Fluffy) - Lh2 (Akita, Eurasier, Samoyed, Siberian Husky Type)**L Locus (Long Hair/Fluffy) - Lh4 (Afghan Hound, Eurasier, French Bulldog Type)**Polydactyly (Common Variant Found in Many Breeds)**Polydactyly (Great Pyrenees Type)**SD Locus (Shedding)**T Locus (Natural Bobtail)*

Paw Print Genetics - Tests for Standard Poodle


If you would like to get some info from a retired breeder, this site has been archived for some years but gives a good overall view of color breeding.
COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES (tripod.com)

DNA and color in poodles is a work in progress.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

kyliejenner said:


> The sable’s parents were solid white and brown parti, what do you think of this?


Ok!
So, if sable's parent is white then sable carries white for sure. This means that there is a 50% chance of white for that pairing.
Having a parti parent is where the sable got the white spot, and there is a chance of passing that on as well (50% chance of passing it on, but it may or may not be expressed- ie be visible).
It's possible but unlikely that the white carries brown, so although the sable does carry brown it's unlikely to show up in the pups.
The other 50% possibilities will depend on what the white is hiding, but could be black, or some black and some sable, as the most likely.


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