# Dog parks - hmmm



## CurlyDog

I've had some of the same issues. I've also had my last poodle, Max become a bully with a certain dog. I had to start watching who was at the park. Interesting that one of the dogs we always had trouble with was a husky. He bullied everyone. I think it's great fun and exercise that in our case they don't get at home. I still go, but I leave if things get out of hand.


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## Quossum

I'm not a dog park fan. Too many unknown quantities. I've been to one a few times, but I went at ungodly hours when few people would be there, and when someone came in monitored their dog's behavior closely. (Ironically enough, the best time I had at a dog park was with a young pit bull who played great with the corgis.) Once too many people show up it all gets a little too edgy for me. The dogs are one thing, but the clueless people... :afraid:

But then, I'm in the position of having four dogs, so they do get to play and interact and learn dog skills with each other. And we got to training class and dog shows, which allows for interaction. If I had a single dog, I might be more willing to work something out with the dog park situation.

Maybe try to go at those ungodly hours, or arrange a play group with some people who have trustworthy dogs?

--Q


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## Countryboy

I'm just bein' a bit of a Devil's advocate here. Lookin' at this from a frustrated dog trainers view. 

From that point of view, it's easy to pretend that the lady with the Huskies has been working with them for a while, hoping to eliminate some bad behaviour by allowing her dogs to socialize with other dogs. It may be that she was hoping, that for the very first time, her dogs would learn to play nice . . and she wouldn't have to put muzzles on them. In that case, it would have been quite a disappointment to her that they ganged up on Bonnie. I'd sure be embarrassed if I were her. And I'd immediately muzzle my dogs.

I'm not sayin' that your take is wrong, Outwest. U could easily be right. But if u look at it this other way it might take a negative situation *Huskies aggressive, Bonnie cowed* and turn it into a positive. Where the Huskies and Bonnie 'meet' under more controlled circumstances, the Huskies get to love her, she gets used to more rambunctious dogs, and everybody lives happily ever after. 

Or maybe that's just a fairy tale...


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## itzfoxfire58

@ Outwest,

Fallen Loves the Dog Park, are back yard is ok, but not where he can run at top speed and leap like a deer. There are always bullies at dog parks, but I don’t understand how the owners of the bullies don’t control their dogs. I remember one time when we I took Boss to the DP, he was a weim mix and weight 85lbs, he was about a 14 months old and this dog (bully) kept bothering him and I could tell that Boss didn’t like it, so I called him and he came to my side, I said let’s go, well the other dog came charging at him, growling, next thing I know Boss had the dog on its back, I grabbed Boss and said NO, he stopped sat down and looked at me. The owner ran over and told me, if my dog is not friendly then he shouldn’t be here WTH, I looked at him and said your dog was the one antagonizing my dog if you had been watching what you’re dog was doing you would have seen what he was doing and I’m sure this isn’t the first time, so you’re dog is the one who shouldn’t be here. After that incident I didn’t see him anymore. You should keep taking Bonnie to the DP and just watch out for those dogs and if it happens again, maybe you can file some kind of complaint.


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## faerie

is it possible that they were just schooling bonnie? sometimes seelie is a bit (a bit? hahaha!) obnoxious and the other dogs will give him a reminder to chill out.


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## CharismaticMillie

Outwest, I too have frustrations with dog parks. My frustration is people that bring their dogs that they KNOW are dog aggressive and hope that they will learn to play nice. 

I continue to take Millie because she is smart and she knows when a situation could get bad and she tends to back away quickly. If she sees a quarrel between two other dogs, she usually gets as far away as possible. 

I still take her because she has a blast. But, I pick up my things and leave as soon as some sketchy a** people start popping their dogs with prong collars in the pond on the dog park (this happened last time!).


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## stealthq

I've never been to a dog park, myself. However, I have been checking out the German Shepherd forums for a couple of months - I started out wanting one, but I've got myself ~80% convinced that a spoo would be a better fit.

I was surprised at the number of posts there by people who either had a bad experience at a dog park or refused 100% to take their dog to a dog park because they'd had a bad experience in the past. I'd have thought people'd be more careful about their dogs attacking an adult GSD since they have a reputation for being ready, willing, and able to defend themselves, but apparently not.


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## lunamarz_31

I think you should still take her to the parks, but while exercising a little caution beforehand.

Yep, I think we've all had bad experiences at the dog parks one time or another. My poodle is a small one, and one time while running around and playing, several big dogs started playing too roughly with her, she almost got trampled over by one of them. She was so terrified I left the park immediately.

After that time, I usually watch how the other dogs interact before deciding to "join". If I see a lot of roughhousing in the park, I will just take her for a walk and keep the leash on, I will stay out of it. But if the other dogs are more mellow, or even better, most of them are her size, then I will let her loose. And no more incidents after that.

Also, this is just my personal opinion, but dogs have their own interaction and hierarchy, so to speak. In the wild, they will try to establish dominance in their packs, and who's to say it doesn't happen at the dog parks? So maybe to dominant dogs will try to bully the more submissive ones, or the ones looking not-so-confident. But I still believe that the owners should control their dogs when undesirable situations happen.


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## CharismaticMillie

lunamarz_31 said:


> I think you should still take her to the parks, but while exercising a little caution beforehand.
> 
> Yep, I think we've all had bad experiences at the dog parks one time or another. My poodle is a small one, and one time while running around and playing, several big dogs started playing too roughly with her, she almost got trampled over by one of them. She was so terrified I left the park immediately.
> 
> After that time, I usually watch how the other dogs interact before deciding to "join". If I see a lot of roughhousing in the park, I will just take her for a walk and keep the leash on, I will stay out of it. But if the other dogs are more mellow, or even better, most of them are her size, then I will let her loose. And no more incidents after that.
> 
> Also, this is just my personal opinion, but dogs have their own interaction and hierarchy, so to speak. In the wild, they will try to establish dominance in their packs, and who's to say it doesn't happen at the dog parks? So maybe to dominant dogs will try to bully the more submissive ones, or the ones looking not-so-confident. But I still believe that the owners should control their dogs when undesirable situations happen.


See, and I find it equally irritating when people bring their tiny dogs to the dog park and expect the large dogs to NOT roughhouse. I mean - that is what the small dog area is for, no?

Now, I know that not all dog parks have a small dog area, but me? I stay away from those parks. ALL of my poodles have been known to trample small dogs, and I don't fault them for it.

Dogs absolutely try to establish heirarchy in a dog park and this is natural dog behavior and nothing is wrong with it. I believe in allowing dogs to work things out. UNLESS ---- (BIG unless) there is an aggressive dog around. This makes things unfair. 

A few snarls here and there, a dog that does something rude to another dog (humps) is bound to get snapped at - and I consider that very fair and would not be one bit concerned or upset. 

Again, aggressive dogs change the dynamic in an unfair way. As do humans who won't take their dog off leash in the park. :doh:


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## outwest

I know some of the issues with bullying lately are because Bonnie is a puppy, but is very confident and not particular forboding physically. As I said, she can be obnoxious, bless her heart. LOL. But, those huskies ganged up for fun. She wasn't even bothering them at all. 

There are few places I can go where Bonnie is allowed to run full blast as far as she wants to. I think it is the best thing about the park. Everywhere is so legislated here, even in the wilderness parks and trails we are required to leash dogs 6 feet or we get a ticket (yes, the rangers give tickets). In the mountains they are required to wear leashes, but if we hike in a ways we unleash them (no one is the wiser). 

Bonnie does need to learn her manners. She thinks she is hot stuff in there, but three full grown huskies was way too much. The last bullying came from a German Shephard. 

I want her to be able to run. Often she has a blast and comes home totally exhausted (no small feat). She will fetch balls endlessly if there is no one to play with. 

I will try it again, but maybe go earlier when it isn't so crowded. Most of the dogs are terrific, as are the owners. I wish Bonnie wasn't quite so fearless. It is getting her in trouble. I was also thinking of taking her to the dog beach where she could try out the ocean and running on the sand. I hear there is tons of shoreline devoted to a dog beach. It is about 35 minutes away, not too far. 

If you guys think the dog park and a little bullying won't mess up her selfconfidence maybe I will try it again, just be a little more careful.


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## Bella's Momma

While you're talking about dog parks, for those who are regulars - when is it the most empty? I'm working up the courage to take Bella. Our new yard doesn't have room for her to get a good galop going. But I'm so scared of dog park dynamics, dogs and owners. We have never ever been. I was thinking a weekday morning would be best, but then again other people may think that!


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## WestCoastSpoo

Huxley is still too young to take to a dog park, but I've been weighing the pros and cons for awhile now. I definitely get the "schooling" thing, but what drives me CRAZY is idiot owners! In a different city we brought our Great Dane to a dog park and a PACK of dogs was jumping up and bullying my MOTHER and the owner did NOTHING! I had to pick them off her by their collars (sort of half-choking them) yelling for the dumb owner to get her dogs under control - which she of course was unable to do. We left as soon as my mom could get free and it left a bad taste in my mouth for dog parks in general.

So I think I would only go if no one was there and just use it as a fenced in huge field for Huxley to stretch his legs, but not as a socialization place since there are a LOT of dogs with horrible doggy manners out there.

My other option is doggy daycare or the doggy yappy hour they have at 2 of our local training places. I went to visit and watch and these are fully supervised by professional trainers who KNOW dog behavior and correct when necessary. They do allow the older dogs to put some of the rowdy youngsters in their place but never let it get out of control. Plus everyone has to show proof of vaccination which makes me feel a little safer.

What we ended up doing with our Dane after the dog park attack incident was just taking him to our local school fields and letting him run loose there and just inviting some of his doggy friends once in awhile. Actually, there started to be a sort of informal dog park there weekday evenings with all the other owners who were freaked out by the regular dog park! lol


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## outwest

I have been going to dog parks for years without much trouble at all. Here are some dog park tips:

NEVER take a leashed dog into the dog park. The other dogs sense it and bother them. You always leash and unleash in the entry area. Most places have a two gate system (at least ours do). 

Your dog must be under voice control so when they are all the way on the other side of the park they will come to you when called. 

My last standard loved the park, but didn't care for other dogs. She ignored them all preferring to fetch balls endlessly. 

Most people that care enough about their dogs to take them to the dog park are good, responsible dog owners that watch their dogs. There are only a few problem dogs.

Unneutered male dogs cause the most trouble and many dog parks require neutering of males. The neutered males pester and bother the unneutered ones, maybe because they sense he has something they don't. The unneutered ones tend to pester the females and can be most persistent and annoying. Unneutered males cause a lot of trouble. 

Most dog parks have a pamphlet about dog park etiquette. Stop by your local park without your dog and sit there for a while and watch. Pick up a pamphlet or read the info board. 

If you bring treats to the park you have to put them in a plastic nonsmell container or you will have dogs surrounding you and being pesty. Some parks do not allow treats for this reason. 

Be prepared to leave at a moments notice. One bad dog changes the entire dynamics of the park. A lot depends on what dogs are there at the moment. In general, for the amount of times we have been, we have had very few problems. It is only lately that Bonnie is getting picked on. 


The quietest time is midmorning during the week. You will often get regulars who go daily at certain times. You also make nice friends because dog people like to talk to other dog people.


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## outwest

PS It is fine to go into the small dog area the first time you go into the park to get them used to it. If they start being annoying with the little dogs, then you can try the big area.


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## Sookster

We have a few dog parks here, and as many have stated I have had both good and bad experiences. 

Outwest, when Sonya was younger (there is actually a thread here about it I think) I had a lot of problems with her being overly obnoxious about playing. Several times I had to intervene because she would bug another dog to the point that they would start to growl and snap at her. She just didn't have any idea the other dogs were trying to tell her they didn't want to play. She has grown out of that. I actually stopped taking her to the park for a couple months right about when she was 8-9 months old or so because she got SO obnoxious and we had several "bad" days at the park in a row. She seemed to have matured a lot when I finally brought her back to the park, and we haven't had any problems like that since. 

We also have a group of huskies that frequents our local dog park. The way it seems to me, it is a young couple that have 4 huskies (seem to be rescues) and a great dane. The dane and three of the huskies are completely fine, well socialized, and friendly. But one of the huskies is timid and reactive and quick to become aggressive. I think that they are mis-using the park. The dog park is for allowing your well-socialized, well-trained, well-behaved pet to interact with other dogs and run and have fun. It is not a place for training or to initiate socialization. A lot of people just don't get this. 

I would still go to the park if I were you. You seem to have it down to a science on how to deal with situations if they arise. I think with such a conscientious owner, Bonnie will be just fine. I doubt a few minor skirmishes will completely derail her confidence. I take Sonya and Nova to the park here probably about once a week (I have 5 dogs living at my house right now, soon to be 6 so they get plenty of play-time in the back yard). I just make sure that I have them both under control so that if another dog gets out of control I can call them away quickly and get them out of danger.


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## DonnaM

I had a very intense Alpha Australian Cattle dog. She had never hurt another dog, but I always felt the potential was there. I used isolated large open fields for off leash run time. I've always believed that people with intimidating dogs have a responsibility to ensure their dogs are unable to frighten others and now that I have a sweet minipoo, this belief has only strengthened. I've heard many stories of inconsiderate dog owners at off leash parks. The risk is just too high.


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## itzfoxfire58

Bella's Momma said:


> While you're talking about dog parks, for those who are regulars - when is it the most empty? I'm working up the courage to take Bella. Our new yard doesn't have room for her to get a good galop going. But I'm so scared of dog park dynamics, dogs and owners. We have never ever been. I was thinking a weekday morning would be best, but then again other people may think that!


I think early morning is the best, if the park opens at 5:00, I would get there as soon as its light, most people start showing up around 8:00.


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## Locket

Whether or not the huskies should have been there in the first place is debatable, but you can't complain about the owner recognizing her dogs' behaviour and taking action.

I've had pretty decent experiences with the dog parks in my area. As long as I avoided the hours when the dog walkers were there, it was usually pretty empty. I always left as soon as it felt "busy", if there was any kind of spat between dogs, if there were any out of control dogs, if there were any clueless owners, etc. Dog parks are full of unknowns, but if you do your best to limit or eliminate the risks, it can be really fun and rewarding. The bigger the park the better.


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## JE-UK

I don't have that specific problem, as all parks are dog parks in the UK :smile:.

I am quick to take my dog off to the other end of the park if dogs appear that I know are too rough or rude for my smaller dog. There are big dogs that are amazingly gentle with smaller dogs, as well as medium-sized bullies, so size isn't necessarily the only thing I look at. And I'm sorry to say it, but if someone shows up with a bully-looking dog, I tend to leave.

I sympathise fully with the frustration with idiot owners! It only takes one to ruin it for everyone.


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## refuserefuse

I know this is an ancient post but trying to see if there are some savvy dog owners out that that can respond.

My observations are that huskies and husky owners are at the far opposite end of the bell curve from poodles and poodle owners while both groups think they are the top of the norm. 

This comes from having both in my life and having labs and mixes that get caught between the two extremes and daily dogpark with all. So anecdotal but a lot of it. Also all the following is in terms of trends. I have met very aware Poodle and Husky owners and very submissive Huskies and very aggressive poodles. 

Huskies and Poodles verses an actual canine average:

- Huskies, the bread staying much closer to wild pack lineages, tend to be much more focused on dogs and dog behaviors aka lower awareness of human desires, more territorial and more concerned/fearful that other dogs can be a threat.

- Poodles, bred as non-pack hunting companions, tend to be more people focused aka lower awareness of canine norms, less territorial and resultantly lower on superfluous fear of other dogs. 

The fall out is partly from the breading and partly from the human expectations/socialization of their animal. 

For the following, keep in mind that for a dog, the mouth is the primary instrument of both play and attack much like a human hand. A friend moving quickly to you, coming into your personal space and swinging a hand up over your shoulder you interpret as a hug. If a stranger does the same thing you interpret that they are trying to punch you. All the more so for dogs since the neck is the primary vital vulnerability in dog fights. 

- Poodles, with lower awareness of all the customary rules and etiquette on introduction, get right in a new dog's face, or maybe go through the introduction etiquette too quickly for the other dog's comfort then get in the dog's face. Poodle owners know, in all likelihood correctly, that their dog doesn't have a mean bone in its body, and this behavior seems cute and friendly from a human perspective. So when a another dog, reacting non-aggressively to this poor/aggressive behavior, snaps at them in controlled burst to (re)establish boundaries the poodle owner feels that it is the other dog being aggressive, while the fact that the poodle basically threw the first punch (regardless of its probably innocent intentions) goes unrecognized.

- Huskies, with more canine pack instincts in tact, are extra cautious to make acquaintance and the vast majority of dogs will want to introduce more quickly than the husky finds appropriate. After introductions it will continue to be leery and more likely to interpret another dog's appropriate play as being aggressive leading to fearful=defensive=aggressive=territorial reactions. Compared to most dog's it will go far overboard on setting boundaries with new dogs. Since Huskies mostly follow the same rules they can play, roughly, all day with other Huskies without incident, even with the frequent snarling and lip curling that would be outright aggression in most other breeds. Their owner thinks this is the norm, or maybe just rougher play, and let it progress with any other dog, but must dogs and certainly their owners will probably interpret it as aggression.

Said another way, a Husky is long done being a puppy by the time it is a year and a Poodle is a Husky until it is five. 

It's a curios thing that in my observations, Hound owners routinely express awareness that their breads are too possessive over toys and Ausie owners that their dog tends to nip at other dogs heels and on and on, with most owners who take their dogs to dog parks trying mitigate these breed behaviors and bring them closer to an appropriate universal average. While, as a trend, Husky and Poodle owners I meet don't see any behavior that needs rectified. 

Also, I am excluding most small dogs breeds from my description of normal canine behavior. Because, much like Poodles, these dogs not dangerous, but unlike Poodles due to size rather than temperament, the trend is that they never get socialized appropriately and are habitually outright and intentionally aggressive to other dogs without it being recognized by their owners. Again, just a trend, not a rule.


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## Raindrops

refuserefuse said:


> I know this is an ancient post but trying to see if there are some savvy dog owners out that that can respond.


I would amend this to say that labs/goldens are quite a bit more extreme than poodles when it comes to rude behavior. My poodle is actually quite respectful when meeting dogs off leash. On leash, less so because of the excitement. Bully breeds also tend to be very rude in their dog behavior, with the added aspect that they are more likely to take offense and escalate things. Huskies aren't the only dogs that don't do well with rude behavior. Herding dogs and Asian breeds tend to be this way too. That's why many breeds are referred to as "not dog park breeds." Any dog that has both an intolerance to rude behavior and a proclivity toward conflict escalation is very dangerous in a dog park environment.

An aside: Recently at a local off leash area, there was a horrific fight between two dogs that were regular visitors. It was a pit bull and a golden retriever. The golden and his brother are friendly dogs but they are clear cases of littermates. Both unaltered. The more dominant one is given to posturing and dominance displays. Which is usually not a big deal, but when he did this to a pitbull (I think also unaltered) things went sour very quickly. Both dogs were seriously injured. The pit didn't really start the disagreement, but he was certainly willing to win it at all costs.

I would say that small dogs do deserve attention. The main difficulty here is that many small dogs are terriers which are naturally dog aggressive and have a short fuse. That and their owners do not take their aggression seriously. I think those are the main issues they face. Some of the most rudely behaved small dogs I've encountered have been French bulldogs. They are, as their name reflects, often bullies. And don't have any respect for dog behavior.


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## PeggyTheParti

I've had multiple frightening dog-on-dog encounters with huskies over the years. Each time they rushed my dog. With Gracie, it was worse because she was so small. The husky picked her right up. With Peggy they're just consistently very pushy, rough, and over-excited—always wanting to chase and weirdly spurred on by signs of fear. 

The only true attack Peggy's experienced so far was a small, strange black and white herding breed. I've never seen one before, and thought it was a pit mix, but the owner said no. It went straight for Peggy's belly, which can be quickly catastrophic. The owner literally beat her dog once I'd pulled it away. Just an all around horrifying experience.


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## VanessaC

I’ve also had pretty bad experiences with huskies, in general.

When I first moved to Seattle, there was a husky at the dog park that went around humping all the dogs. The owner didn’t see a need to correct him and all the regulars would just laugh and comment how cute he was. Luckily, he didn’t try it on Groot who wouldn’t have just taken it.

Today, another husky ran up to me and knocked me over. I’m usually prepared for strangers’ dogs to jump on me (even though I’m not a fan of this behavior), but this was over the top. Then he bit and tried to dominate my 4 month old puppy, Snoop. Luckily Groot and I intervened before he could do any real damage, but he kept lunging and trying to bite her even after the owner put the leash on him.

Groot is all for playing rough, but he doesn’t seem to like how pushy and dominant the huskies we are encounter are. He’s pretty intolerant of rude behavior in dogs older than 6 months or so and is fairly measured in his corrections. He’s also very polite when it comes to meeting new dogs off leash. He’ll usually run up to new dogs but stop a few feet away to read their body language and give them a chance to acknowledge him before he’ll go in for some sniffs. If they seem aggressive or unstable he’ll usually leave them alone and come back to check in with me.


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## For Want of Poodle

I am guessing you are here to start a fight because you dont like poodles?

Reminding myself that the plural of anecdote is NOT data.... and keeping that in mind for the rest of this post...

The biggest predictor of if a dog has a good understanding of dog body language is how well socialized with many dogs the dog was as a puppy. That's far more important than breed.

I actually dont find most Huskies to be rude. The ones I know have good social skills and and dont need to escalate. 

The poodles/poodle crosses also. Mine has frequented a dog park since she was a puppy, and I get a lot of " Yay, Annie is here!!!!' When we arrive. She is friends with everything from the malinois to the husky to the overweight hound, and follows ( at a 10 ft respectful distance) the elderly cantankerous chow around. The poodle crosses are also really good at a controlled bounce at a distance to try and engage play. I do occasionally have to redirect (I call her name and run so we start a chase game) but i honestly do that more often because someone else's dog is being swarmed by another dog, and I dont want her joining in. I do think she is too rough (probably a bit of prey drive) with smaller dogs, and dont let her play with them much. She is fine and gentle with puppies though. 

What I do find lacking in dog park manners are Goldens and especially pitbulls. I am at the leave immediately if I see a pitbull type dog stage. They tend to go for the neck and chase other dogs around the park aggressively. They dont seem to have the same signals as the other dogs, and go immediately to "grr...put them in their place". Most pitbulls dont actually seem to enjoy the dog park. Goldens are pushy, run other dogs over, and get into fights.


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## PeggyTheParti

I think there are a lot of people who buy northern breeds because they (understandably) love their looks, but don't actually know how to give them a good home. So perhaps it's not fair that we negatively generalize their temperaments.


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## PeggyTheParti

For Want of Poodle said:


> What I do find lacking in dog park manners are Goldens and especially pitbulls. I am at the leave immediately if I see a pitbull type dog stage. They tend to go for the neck and chase other dogs around the park aggressively. They dont seem to have the same signals as the other dogs, and go immediately to "grr...put them in their place". Most pitbulls dont actually seem to enjoy the dog park. Goldens are pushy, run other dogs over, and get into fights.


We've got a bunch of local Goldens that are unlike any others I've met. I suspect they're all coming from the same breeder. They're terrified. I'm talking try-to-climb-the-dog-park-fence or hide-under-the-benches terrified. Then, as they get older, this manifests as bullying or even aggression. It's truly bizarre seeing Goldens behave this way.


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## Raindrops

PeggyTheParti said:


> We've got a bunch of local Goldens that are unlike any others I've met. I suspect they're all coming from the same breeder. They're terrified. I'm talking try-to-climb-the-dog-park-fence or hide-under-the-benches terrified. Then, as they get older, this manifests as bullying or even aggression. It's truly bizarre seeing Goldens behave this way.


That is very strange. What a shame. I love a nice golden though.

Different breeds have different ways of communicating and their varying dialects can result in conflict. Misha's fault is that he doesn't seem to understand dog aggression. He will take a correction and leave a dog alone. But he does not understand that the territorial dogs that bark and try to bust down their fence to get at him mean him harm. He thinks they want to play. But I'd much prefer a friendly naive dog to a reactive dog with a short fuse. Breeds that have tendency to be intolerant of the rude "in your face" behavior tend to complain mostly about labs/goldens and bully breeds. Definitely not poodles!


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## Pytheis

It’s so interesting to me how one person’s experience can differ so vastly with another person’s. For me, I avoid huskies and malamutes like the plague. If I see one, I immediately leash my dogs and leave the area. I have literally never in my life met one that was well behaved or appropriate with other dogs, and I worked at the local animal shelter in a large city for over a year. I have been stalked by them before. Don’t trust them as far as I can throw them.

Goldens and labs are high energy and typically pretty bouncy, but in my experience, they’re some of the best dogs for appeasement and tolerating other dogs bad behaviors. I have never seen a golden retriever or lab get into a fight; they just try to get away. Of course I know it happens, which is why I think it’s so interesting how two people can experience completely different things.


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## cowpony

One of my acquaintances worked in a doggy daycare during college. She said they had to ban several Goldens for anti-social behavior. Interestingly, they never had a problem with a pitbull. I suppose there was a bit of owner self selection going on.


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