# The Wall of Silence



## Yaddaluvpoodles

I came across a great article today and wanted to share it with all the breeder's and interested parties out there:

PawPeds


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Fantastic article! THANK YOU so much for sharing this!


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## Countryboy

Oh! Oh! Oh! :wave: I've got a question!!! :wave: Pick me!!! :wave:

Actually I've got a few. And I'm not even half way thru yet.  lol

"The newcomers see the success of these breeders' dogs and buy them (even though few, if any, have had even the most rudimentary testing for structural faults, poor health or defective genes)."

Surely this isn't true... or is it? I'm reading this to say that show winners are not or rarely health checked? . . DNA tested? What would be the extent of the testing on a dog like London before he sires pups all over the world? 

I have nooo idea.

But if u were campaigning/specializing a dog . . . wouldn't u just wanna know?


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## Brodie

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> I came across a great article today and wanted to share it with all the breeder's and interested parties out there:
> 
> PawPeds


Thank you for this most informative article. Hits home with me especially since the loss of our "Brodie"
M Jones


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## peppersb

Yadda -- VERY interesting article! But is it really that bad??? I hope not, but I don't know.

Brodie's experience with Bijou would certainly suggest that it is that bad. I'm hoping that Bijou is not typical. I know one breeder who is telling anyone/everyone that her gorgeous silver AKC champion has sired one puppy who has a very mild case of Addison's. So that's one breeder who is not covering up the truth.


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## outwest

Countryboy said:


> Oh! Oh! Oh! :wave: I've got a question!!! :wave: Pick me!!! :wave:
> What would be the extent of the testing on a dog like London before he sires pups all over the world?
> ?


Check OFA then come back here.


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## Countryboy

outwest said:


> Check OFA then come back here.


Awwwwwww hunnnn. out: Yr soooo much better at that than I am. Can u do it for meeeee. :angel2: lol 

Seriously tho, I searched 'london', 'poodle', in there and all I came up with was some poor bitch with SA . . . back in 1994.  Is there sumthin' I'm missing? 

**Other than the Rangers/Capitals game right now....


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## 2719

Countryboy said:


> Oh! Oh! Oh! :wave: I've got a question!!! :wave: Pick me!!! :wave:
> 
> Surely this isn't true... or is it? I'm reading this to say that show winners are not or rarely health checked? . . DNA tested? What would be the extent of the testing on a dog like London before he sires pups all over the world?
> 
> I have nooo idea.
> 
> But if u were campaigning/specializing a dog . . . wouldn't u just wanna know?


I will try to add the links (but if they do not work...Outwest can you do it?, you are much more computer savvy then myself.)
First here is London's OFFA page. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

But offa test results are not all the Yaddaluv's article references...it is the health issues pedigrees which are not being made public. Here is his PHR pedigree PHR Pedigree Database

Which is only as good as all the breeders putting forth any health issues. 

I only list London's info as an example because Countryboy asked.

In my opinion if you see a pedigree that appears clear of any diseases...and the breeder tells you they have no issues...RUN or ask a lot of questions.


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## fjm

I assume the writer is from the UK, where testing has taken longer to become established than in the US, and many of the systems for recording the results have been established comparatively recently, if at all. There is no database recording the status of patellas, for example, and the data recorded by the eye scheme is less complete than in the US. 

I think the issues are also breed dependent - some breed clubs in the UK are very open about issues, and actively encourage members to test and to share and discuss the results. Others treat any suggestion their breed may have any problem at all like a major heresy, to be torn out root and branch.


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## peppersb

*UK reports on dog breeding*

Very interesting to hear from FJM regarding testing in the UK.

Following the BBC's documentary on Pedigree Dogs Exposed (available on line and well worth watching), three scientific reports were issued about the state of dog breeding in the UK and how it should be improved. Very interesting reading. I particularly liked the Bateson report (not sure I got all the way through the others, but they seem good too). I was extremely impressed that this issue was taken so seriously and that independent reviews were commissioned. Too often issues are dealt with by having two extreme sides yell at each other without listening to each other. I was impressed to see independent reviews that seemed to lay out the facts of the issue along with recommendations about how laws and practices should be changed. Of course much of what is said is relevant to breeding in the US and other countries.

Links to the reports are here:

Pedigree dogs - Health and welfare - Dogs


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## fjm

The Karlton Index The Karlton Index is an interesting attempt to evaluate and track how well UK breed clubs collect and disseminate information on health issues. Not perfect, but a step in the right direction.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Countryboy said:


> Seriously tho, I searched 'london', 'poodle', in there and all I came up with was some poor bitch with SA . . . back in 1994.


Frank, You crack me up! I love it when you talk dirty! <LOL> Next time, try putting in the name "London" where the name goes.. but then on that same page, go up one level.. you will see it says "name" in a drop down box, change that to "callname". You can also do all sorts of other cool searches by changing what is in the name/callname (etc) drop down box.

Seriously everyone, the Wall of Silence is standing strong in North America.However, I don't believe it is quite as strong as it was a decade a go.

I exchanged several emails with a fellow last year who had an SA affected poodle.. out of a "top show dog". While not directly identifying the parents of his SA dog, I believe the sire to be a top producer. He needed help managing the SA. His breeder, whom he really likes, had offered to "replace" the pet dog with SA (offer declined), but had also requested that he keep the information quite as he didn't want everyone to know that he had ANOTHER SA dog out of his kennel.

I am also, unfortunately, well acquainted with a breeder who says that there is "no way" she'll submit a health issue to Poodle Health Registry as she can't "afford" for people to think that she has unhealthy poodles, another who says "are you kidding me, I'd lose all my European connections (some of her foundation is European) if I put one of their health issues on Poodle Health Registry.

I estimated yesterday, elsewhere that somewhere between 1/4 and 1/10th of all health issues are actually reported.

As for testing, very few breeders of standards (and I would assume the same is true of the other sizes) really do ALL of their health testing. I am included with the breeder's who don't. In an ideal world, it would all be completed. Then there are those of us (yes, I'm included in that group too) who do testing and are too cheap or too broke as the case may be to fork out the $$ to have the tests listed on OFA (some test listings are at no charge, others are $7.50 a piece, then if you have five test results to be posted there is a price break after five). I make certain that if I have any abnormals they are posted, but there's a whole lotta CERF's, SA bx and stuff like that you aren't going to see on my poodles on OFA. Abnormal health issues can be submitted to PHR for posting at no charge. Due to limited resources (volunteers, time) and the details that goes into managing the PHR, normal SA and CERF's aren't listed. Also, one of the concerns on PHR is that if a normal was listed, and then the poodle later tested abnormal and the information wasn't updated, the "normal" listing would be misleading to people. 

So what do we do about the wall of silence? It is weakening, slowly. It's critical to change perceptions of posted health issues. 

One of the other problems with the Wall of Silence is..without reporting being common and the accepted/encouraged thing to do, rumors abound. I have even heard of rumors being started intentionally/maliciously/falsely, sometimes between competitors, sometimes by angry pet owners.. each situation has it's own motivators. 

Let's take another look at London's pedigree:

PHR Pedigree Database

Every single health issue that is posted in that pedigree means heartbreak and disappointment for a human. Behind every single health issue is a poodle who has suffered. 

Rather than pointing fingers and saying OMG! Who would want a poodle out of those lines!!! We need to be thinking more largely.. of the whole picture. We need to be expressing our gratitude to those who were open and reported the health issues. When people or their poodles are condemned, they simply are not going to report.

I like London's pedigree as an example for another reason: This pedigree is loaded with reported health issues.. and yet his offspring seem to be in tremendous demand. A whole lot of people would love to have one of his puppies. Reporting those health issues didn't seem to hurt a thing. 

Here's something else to think about--poodles from non-show linage or breeders-if London was a backyard poodle.. and someone looked at a pedigree like that.. I suspect we would hear lots of cries of "poor breeding", "that boy should never be bred".. etc. I rarely use examples of poodles other than my own, so my apologies to London/owners.

Here is another pedigree that may have interest to talk about:

PHR Pedigree Database

For those who don't recognize this boy, this is the sire who produced Gorky. The unfortunate poodle who was diagnosed with Addison's and died shortly after diagnosis. First of all, unlike London's pedigree, there is minimal testing posted.. or for that matter, completed. 

There have been a whole lot of rumors circulating regarding the health, or lack of health in the Leatherstocking poodles. I have spent many hours trying to confirm those health issues as well as to identify the affected poodles. While I have been able to pinpoint three, as well as several with hip issues. I've pretty well reached a dead end. I don't know whether or not the health issues are really there, whether it's a bunch of smoke and mirrors, or whether it's accepted common knowledge that's not true (similar to urban legend). What I do know is that I've spoken with quite a few owners of Leatherstocking poodles, the majority absolutely rave about the temperaments and have told me that they can't imagine ever getting a poodle elsewhere. I've also come across a number who are long lived and who produce large healthy litters, easily. Obviously, those are traits we want within the breed.

My hat is off to all of those people who posted health/testing results behind London. As a breeder, if I were trying to plan a breeding and choosing between the boys(ha.. this makes me laugh) Derby and London, I'd have a good concept of which health issues London is high risk for and maybe be able to choose a mate who would help minimize the expression of those risks. On the other hand, if I were trying to select a mate for Derby.. the path is not as clear.

On a personal note, if anyone is aware of any specifics regarding the Leatherstocking poodles, I would be very interested in hearing from them.

Let's tear down that wall of silence!
Darla


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I acquired a female, pregnant at the time, Woodworks Chariots of Fire, a number of years ago. She came from another breeder who was going through a divorce and was forced to thin her pack. Chariot gave birth to a deep, deep red litter of fat, seemingly healthy puppies. They began dying at five days old and after many trips to the vet, necropsies and sickening heartache, it was discovered the pups had been infected with Canine Herpes Virus. Four of the pups died and for the sake of anyone who might have purchased the other two, and on the advice of our vet, we had the other two put to sleep. This was her third litter, all of the puppies in her other two litters sold, some I am sure with breeding rights and this girl was barely two years old.

Two days after the puppies were gone, we were watching TV and on the show a doorbell rang. Chariot alerted to the doorbell and when she got excited, she fell over with a seizure. She continued to have six to eight light seizures per day, and they generally occurred when she got excited.

I knew I personally would never breed this dog and was subsequently told her father had hip dysplasia. I was contacted by a breeder on the west coast who had acquired a full sister to Chariot, who she'd had xrayed and who was also dysplastic. This breeder swears she has cured this dog of HD and has bred her at least once since being diagnosed.

I gave Chariot to one of my best friends, on the promise she would spay her. She has a wonderful life, but has up to twelve seizures daily, and she is aging, they are more intense. I continue to ask my friend to report the seizures to PHR, and sadly, she never has.

Here is the link to Chariot's pedigree. Her five gen pedigree is nearly all Leatherstocking dogs...Five generation pedigree: Woodworks Chariots Of Fire

For the sake of the members out there who think I am a wretched bitch and have a bone to pick, if you would feel better if my girlfriend joined to confirm this is true, I will be happy to ask her if she would. But trust me, I wish I was fabricating this. My entire relationship with this poor, sad dog was nothing but grief and heartache, and while losing that litter was one of the most traumatic things I have ever experienced, I know now, because of what I know of this dog and her background, that it was a blessing in disguise for me as a breeder.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Thank you!
She is one of the Leatherstocking poodles with health issues I was aware of. Don't know if you remember, but it was while trying to track down her information I first made contact with you. Seems like forever ago, but it really wasn't. As there's no way to get her info on to PHR, I'm really glad that it's now posted for people to find.

Anyone else with knowledge of L. Stocking health issues.. I'd love to hear about them! 

Thanks, Darla


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I do remember and appreciated very much your help and insight on this matter. I will continue to attempt to get my friend too post this on PHR, but as a pet person, she just cannot understand why it is so important.

Long time members are familiar with Gorky's story and he was a Leatherstocking dog. Spoospirit had Taffy, who was purchased to add to their breeding program. She was diagnosed with HD when her screening was being done prior to breeding. She was a Leatherstocking dog.


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## zyrcona

Re: testing in the UK: it varies a lot from breed to breed. The Kennel Club is in effect a sort of franchise that the individual breed clubs operate under. Some breed clubs are good as a whole at testing, and some I understand even make certain tests compulsory. In standard poodles, most reputable breeders will do the hip scoring tests and the eye tests, and some do the SA skin test (not a genetics test and not always reliable). I'm seeing vWD testing more often (possibly more than SA these days), but the other genetics tests (NE, deg my, etc.) don't seem to be in widespread use at the moment.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

According to PHR, there is next to no testing on any of the dogs in this pedigree. Some of the offspring have been tested, but very few of the dogs themselves. And aside from a DM test, I am seeing nothing but hips.

http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_verticalped.pl?id=172287


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## peppersb

Wow. Agggh. Jaw dropped down to the ground.

Yadda and Arreau, you are really opening my eyes to the dark side of poodle breeding. Arreau, I just can't imagine the heartache.... 

Thanks so much for this thread. I'd like think that some of us can learn from it. But if people are purposefully hiding health problems, then it is pretty hard to know what to do.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

peppersb said:


> Wow. Agggh. Jaw dropped down to the ground.
> 
> Yadda and Arreau, you are really opening my eyes to the dark side of poodle breeding. Arreau, I just can't imagine the heartache....
> 
> Thanks so much for this thread. I'd like think that some of us can learn from it. But if people are purposefully hiding health problems, then it is pretty hard to know what to do.


And sadly...many are! Some even ask you to sign a declaration of confidentiality when a problem does arise, before refunding your money or replacing your puppy.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

re: friend not reporting....There's a song about that.. the words are "all in all, it's just another brick in the wall". (Couldn't resist <VBG>)

Seriously though, it's tough convincing pet owners that their poodle sp/eutered though it may, be has something critical to contribute to the breed. 

Now, a bit off topic:

BTW--I make every attempt not to target kennels. I have a dog or two in this hunt. So health information is critical to me. As a breeder..well if I ever decide to breed again.. I need to know where those health issues are and what they are in order to deal with them as best I can.

Now for those of you shaking your heads in dismay.. "why on earth would she ever want to breed an L. Stocking poodle????" may I please redirect you back to London's pedigree... and I'll throw this question back at you.. why on earth would anyone ever want to perpetuate a line like that? And then.. I'll add.. because we breeders and owners alike, see something of significance within each of those lines. I can't speak for London's owners... but he's one heck of a gorgeous poodle. I can speak for myself, however. Having seen poodles afflicted with Addison's, epilepsy, SA, splenic torsion and dropping dead from cancer while still in the single digits of age... much of which I gradually came to attribute to a lack of genetic diversity and inbreeding, I am desperate to do something about it. I have spent a decade plus looking for bloodlines of low health risk. Poodles from off the beaten path who are not significantly inbred. Many of those I found looked a bit different from the well known showline poodles. I found myself learning about structure, about modes of inheritance, about.. the things I try to share with this group. I try hard to keep up to date with the latest research and findings. As a result of all of the time I have invested, I now have a handful of ever so slightly poodles which I believe have lower than average health risk (and I pray that I am right). 

I have one girl.. who is ultra special. She has a very diverse pedigree, is heterozygous at the DLA type II level, although she carries a type one haplotype, she also carries a 5. She is from what is known as an "outlier" pedigree. For those having read the new Pederson SA research study, there are references to these poodles. She has the sweetest personality in the world, has never met a stranger, adores children, incredibly inquisitive..which has gotten her into a bit of trouble on a couple of occasions. A structure that is 100% sound, but a bit different than most are used to seeing in a poodle, being somewhat long bodied, low tail set, round eyes. With coat on, she looks very similar to the old poodles from the 30's and 40's. For those who are into such things.. she has a super low Wycliffe influence. One half of her pedigree.. comes from the older Leatherstocking lines. 

So.. if someone gave me London today, with full breeding priviledges, I would admire him, be grateful.. and turn him immediately over to Keith who I'm sure would treasure him and utilize him in a manner that would be best served for his show linage/background and appearance. While doing that.. I would continue to bumble along with my..off the beaten path poodles... and feel confident that both Keith and I would be doing what we felt is best for the breed, each in our own way, neither harming the other and both being there if and when things fell apart for the other. That's what breeding is all about.. the perpetuation of the breed.. and hopefully with as few health issues and heartbreakers as possible.

So back to my request.. anyone knowing of health issues in L. Stocking.. please send them my way.. much as I cringe and hate to hear about them.. I appreciate them more.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Working pedigree link for Chariot:
PHR Pedigree Database

(PHR hint--It's kind of a pain till you get used to it, but to post PHR pedigree links, you have to click on the word "link" right below the dogs registered name, then copy and paste what comes up on the address bar. One of those things that I don't understand why it's like that... I just go along with it and am glad that the PHR is there!)

I believe you!
My questions regarding Chariot has always been where the seizures originated from.. the L. Stocking line.. or the Majestic line.. but those are questions for another time/place.



ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Here is the link to Chariot's pedigree. Her five gen pedigree is nearly all Leatherstocking dogs...Five generation pedigree: Woodworks Chariots Of Fire
> 
> if you would feel better if my girlfriend joined to confirm this is true


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I have no idea where the seizure disorder comes from either, and with the wall of silence, we may never know. But in my mind, the HD seems to be obviously from the LS lines...her father, her sister, Taffy, Gorky...


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> And sadly...many are! Some even ask you to sign a declaration of confidentiality when a problem does arise, before refunding your money or replacing your puppy.


And worse. People have been threatened, people have been intimidated. I had someone tell me once that "if you ever post a health issue on PHR, you'll never be allowed to breed to any decent studs again!" (actually.. I think that is posted somewhere in the old PSG archives.


I have chosen the opposite course. While most fully disclose health testing of good health.. I'm a bit slack on that. In addition, my latest contract REQUIRES registration of all health issues that may appear in any of my puppies. So.. IF and when I ever do breed again, I suspect that gradually, you will see health issues appear in my pedigrees. The fact that a health issue rears it's ugly head is not the concern. The concern is.. what one does after that health issue shows up.

As we learn more and more about health issues through research and science, the recommendations for management are changing. Hip dysplasia, SA and Addison's are now all considered to be polygenic, with either and possibly both environmental triggers and epigenetic changes. That is a significant and has huge implications for breeder's. It's no longer as simple as if the dog produces it sp/euter the producer. IMO--if we sp/eutered all of the producers, we wouldn't have much left to work with. Again.. another topic.

Darla


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## zyrcona

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> According to PHR, there is next to no testing on any of the dogs in this pedigree. Some of the offspring have been tested, but very few of the dogs themselves. And aside from a DM test, I am seeing nothing but hips.
> 
> http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_verticalped.pl?id=172287


Who's this? The link doesn't work for me.

Darla, keep me updated on your breeding programme. You have my email and it's very interesting.


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## peppersb

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> And sadly...many are! Some even ask you to sign a declaration of confidentiality when a problem does arise, before refunding your money or replacing your puppy.





Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> And worse. People have been threatened, people have been intimidated. I had someone tell me once that "if you ever post a health issue on PHR, you'll never be allowed to breed to any decent studs again!"


The world needs more people like Brodie who are willing to walk away from the offer of a "free" puppy ($1,500, more or less?) in order to do the right thing -- refuse to sign a confidentiality agreement and report their dog's health problems to PHR. See the Bijou thread.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

*Change of topic to HD*



ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I have no idea where the seizure disorder comes from either, and with the wall of silence, we may never know. But in my mind, the HD seems to be obviously from the LS lines...her father, her sister, Taffy, Gorky...


Absolutely. You'll get no disagreement from me there. The latest research articles I have read regarding hip dysplasia is that it is attributed to polygenic MOI with environmental triggers and epigenetic changes. Whenever I see a kennel who is known as an HD kennel.. I have to wonder why. What surfaces are the dogs kept on, how much exercise do they get and of what kind (too much, too little), what do they eat? Are they from breeders who think that those super fat puppies who waddle everywhere are cute? Are they kept in crates, was early crate training done?
Then I try to find poodles from the same lines.. elsewhere. If possible owned by someone who doesn't interact and who manages their dogs differently than in the first kennel. What is the rate of HD with those dogs? Frequently there are surprising differences.

IMO--hip scores.. are also just like CERF's and SA biopsies. They are only indicative of the state of the hips at the time they are taken and only as accurate as the skills of the person taking them as well as those of the person interpreting them. I heard a breeder complain once that she never used a certain vet for hip xrays as everytime she took a dog there it came back as dysplastic, but if she used her other vet, the dog was not. While OFA will deny that this happens.. hip xrays are still subjective. I know of a top agility poodle who had passing hips when young, dysplastic as she aged. I don't believe that this is uncommon at all.. I suspect there are a whole heck of a lot of dysplastic poodles out there.. listed with normal hip scores... because they were normal when they were xrayed, however as they aged, their hips worsened. Genetics? Environment? Epigenetics? Interactions between all three? Who knows. Polygenics are super complicated. It's not at all as easy as simple recessives or even dominants. Again.. just guessing.. but take a look at those pedigrees out there.. How many are there which don't have dysplasia. So.. while I'm hoping never to have a dysplastic offspring (statistically... this is impossible), I will also be making active management decisions to minimize the expression of HD.

It is possible to have poodles having normal (Excellent/Good/Fair) hip scores produce dysplastic offspring. It is also possible for poodles who are dysplastic to produce normal offspring.. in fact it has happened frequently. I'd bet it's happened more than documented because of people not reporting their dysplastics, but reporting the passing tests of their offspring.

Ever heard a breeder say "it's not my fault!"? Several years ago, I bred a bitch who was on loan to me.. who was diagnosed with HD. Gorgeous jet black bitch, moved like the wind and when she jumped.. she soared like a kite. Her early life had been ugly, many hours daily in a crate. The breeding resulted in a singleton (late timing on the breeding), who has OFA good hips. I spoke to the vets who evaluated her xrays. There was one recommendation for "excellent" and two for "good". Would I attribute the HD to the breeder? Not a chance. While the bitch has the underlying genetics.. I was confident that the HD had been caused by the management of the owner (the bitch changed hands and was in a pet home with loving owners when she was lent to me). Occasionally.. we can point fingers at puppy owners and I'm glad to see so many on this group who are involved and concerned with making sure they do things right for their puppies.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

BTW...this thread...http://www.poodleforum.com/16-poodle-breeder-directory/19078-found-cute-puppy-but.html has gotten me into some hot water as the Woodworks dog being discussed in it goes back to a lot of the same dogs as Chariot, so I spoke out. I have been messaged here and on FB being called a liar, and told there is a silent majority on this forum who hates my guts because of my exposing anything I know about LS.

This thread http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/19040-red-poodles-2.html also got me into hot water, but the grand dam of this litter is Chariot's Mother, to the best of my knowledge, so I certainly was not going to keep quiet.

Sometimes people prefer not to hear the truth...


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## Countryboy

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> She has the sweetest personality in the world, has never met a stranger, adores children, incredibly inquisitive..which has gotten her into a bit of trouble on a couple of occasions. A structure that is 100% sound, but a bit different than most are used to seeing in a poodle, being somewhat long bodied, low tail set, round eyes. With coat on, she looks very similar to the old poodles from the 30's and 40's.


I like dogs like that.  And Tonka probably resembles that remark. But ya... they'd be of no use to Keith.  lol

The 'bumbling along' is kind of inevitable I suppose. But when I think abt where that takes the breed in 10 or 15 generations I can hardly imagine it. My mind just freezes up. 

Two?? . . or three??? . . . different?? . . breeds of Poodles? The Keith/Londonish/show line bred back to the Yadda/DiverseGenetics line??? 

I'm sooooo glad I'm just an owner!  lol


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

zyrcona said:


> Who's this? The link doesn't work for me.
> 
> Darla, keep me updated on your breeding programme. You have my email and it's very interesting.


The link is to Woodworks Chariots of Fire, the girl I was speaking about. If you can get to her link on PHR it is quite interesting...Next to no testing on any of the breeding dogs in her five generation ancestry.


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## zyrcona

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I have been messaged here and on FB being called a liar, and told there is a silent majority on this forum who hates my guts because of my exposing anything I know about LS.


If this is true, the 'silent majority' are a majority of connivers and arselickers. It's impossible to guarantee any dog won't suffer from a heritable disease, but anyone who has owned or known a dog who suffered from a heritable disease would want to do everything possible to minimise the risk.

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." (Winston Churchill)


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## zyrcona

Thinking about this while eating my dinner, and it occurred to me that the main problem is again vanity. Some breeders need to stop thinking of the dogs they breed as extensions of their egos. PHR and information about inherited conditions are not about witch-hunts and scapegoats or condemning any breeder, any dog, or even necessarily any genes. They are about spreading information and education and helping people to make informed choices about what to do with the dogs and the genes in their possession.

When I bought my puppy, I was not told how to recognise the symptoms of GDV or Addison's, and yet, an owners ability to discern what such a problem may be and relay it to a vet could be the one thing that saves a dog's life. This is something I think breeders should do. Vets are not idiots, but they have to treat a large number of different breeds and different species, and a vet when called upon in an emergency may make a wrong decision through not being familiar enough with the health problems that can affect a breed. Owners being educated on these matters and choosing vets who will listen to their concerns can prevent this.

Emergivet: Diagnosis by Signalment Emergivet's blog is sometimes funny, sometimes poignant, and sometimes terribly sad. In this post, she explains from experience how she can guess what a dog's issue is likely to be caused by, sometimes only from its breed. An inexperienced vet won't have this instinct yet, which is why it's important to be aware of the health issues with the breed you own.\


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## NOLA Standards

Though the requirement (or my insistence that it should be a requirement for good breeders) of breeders being involved in Breed Clubs and the Fancy has been somehow relagated to not-that-important by many to be puppy owners and breeders, I can not stress enough how educational and informative involvement is.

An AKC CH is a great achievement, and the knowledge that is gained from being involved is far beyond anything that could ever be gained from Google - heehee especially if you are CB! On a much more serious note, I'd substitute PHR for Google but in NO WAY do I intend that to be and insult about what a VALUABLE tool PHR is, only to highlight as this thread indicates, it IS limited.

IF shows are too much, then might I recommend breed clubs. 

The information IS there and readily available, though it is much like a raffle: You Must Be PRESENT to Win!

Once the information is in a breeder's hands, it is up to them to decide, as YL said, what is best for their line/the breed based on what each individual animal might have to offer.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

NOLA Standards said:


> The information IS there and readily available, though it is much like a raffle: You Must Be PRESENT to Win!
> 
> 
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards


Oh man Tabitha!!! This sounds like a total promotion of the good ol' boys club and the wall of silence to me. I'm sure that's not how you meant it.. but.People who truly care about the well being of the breed are not hesitant to make that information publicly available for anyone who is interested. No breeder should have social pressure placed on them to be present miss out. The tools are there to make the information available easily accessable. When people choose to hold out information in order to coerce or encourage behaviors of other people.. well it shrieks pretty loudly to me.. that the priority of those folks is something other than the health of poodles.


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## NOLA Standards

Ah well, and I thought the present to win illustration was such a good one...but I see how it could be taken. Thanks, YL.

To elaborate...cause it's gotten late for me and I'm not having much luck coming up with great illustrations - is that as a breeder/exhibitor/fan of x -my opinion is that if you are not involved (there) then you are going to be behind the "wall".

Since I started 3 years ago now, I don't know - still - of anyone newer than me and yet, information is available, whenever I inquire. A good ole boy I am not.

Now, I (though sometimes I hide it well!) do try to work (ok for the most part) on winning friends and influencing people :aetsch: and do, especially when I have a goal in mind, carefully ask my questions and present my case - and as a result usually catch my flies (think sugar!). 

But without being involved as a breeder/exhibitor, even with some name brand sugar, I'm pretty certain my inquires would not have the results they do.

SO, I advocate being involved in the breed one is breeding.

And insist it makes a difference in the knowledge available - either readily or that can be discovered/uncovered/explored.

Better explanation?

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Well.. it still brings that song to mind ("all in all.. it's just another brick in the wall") <VBG>

I can't quite grasp the concept of why someone would need to show or be a part of any particular crowd in order to have health information made available to them. Just how the heck is that information supposed to get to researchers who are trying to give us some answers when it comes to our health nightmares?

This kind of reminds me of the old "gotta pay your dues, kid" kind of thinking. 

I firmly believe that 1) anyone who withholds posting legitimate, diagnosed health issues to the Poodle Health Registry is a hazard to the breed and does not have the breed's best interest at heart.. and I don't care how many Champions they produce in the meantime. If I don't know that their Champion line is riddled with Orange eye ring disease (I made that up...), and I use an offspring of one of their studs and end up with a litter of orange eye ring pups... because the owner of the offspring didn't show and so wasn't told and when I inquired no one bothered to tell me because I don't show.. well.. who is responsible? I asked, my dogs didn't have the right credentials that open those otherwise zipped lips-- (a CH in front of their names). And now.. guess what? People who got pups from me are going to be shouting to the rooftops that I sold them unhealthy pups.. pups that had ORANGE EYE RING DISEASE of all things! and further.. if I would have done my background checks.. I would have known.. because Peggy Sue down the road who just happens to own that lovely owner handled white CH boy.. said so. 

Now if.. just one owner along the way had thought to report that orange eye ring disease to PHR.. well it would have been a bit of a flag that I needed to proceed with extreme caution. So.. now there is a whole litter of pups with orange eye ring disease out there.... heart breakers for sure. Going to cost some folks some money in vet bills. The show people will tell everyone.. well what do you expect when you buy a dog from a BYB (doesn't everyone who doesn't show fall into the BYB category?).

There simply is no excuse for this kind of thing to happen. Those who are sincerely concerned with breed well being report. Those who don't show clearly where their priorities are. Coming from a BYB who cares one whole heck of a lot about the breed.. I would encourage you to run fast and hard from ANY breeder, show or BYB who does not support the use of PHR AND register their health issues. Many breeder's make good noises about PHR.. or go through the motions.. but when it comes down to it.. they don't register and breathe a sigh of relief when their puppy owners forget or aren't motivated to. 

Ok.. I'm super tired.. I've just ripped someone's head off on a different group.. who didn't deserve it.. and I've done it multiple times in the past few days. I'm going to be eating crow for a very long time. That's not like me to be so cruel. I have a major sinus infection/headache.. Vic crashed a week ago and darn near died because I screwed up her medication. She is still not stable. I don't think I could get grumper if I tried. So.. before you all get the chance to give me the boot.. I'm going to go to bed. and hope that everything is all better in the morning.

Darla
PS.. if anyone hears of any actual cases of Orange Eye Ring disease..please share with all of us <VBG>


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## Countryboy

NOLA Standards said:


> An AKC CH is a great achievement, and the knowledge that is gained from being involved is far beyond anything that could ever be gained from Google - heehee especially if you are CB!


One of these days this thread, post and comment will be buried deeeeep in the archives of PF . . . waaaaay down in the vaults where nobody ever goes. Forgotten and abandoned by all . . . . except ME! 

And then, NOLA . . when u least expect it . . . Karma will raise its head. 

MUUAAAAHAHAHAHA!!! :evil: lol


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## NOLA Standards

YL, if I were you, doing what you do, I'd probably be foaming at the mouth. muhhahaha

From your perspective, considering your goals and what you face/run into - there is a wall - my apologies if it seemed like I didn't acknowledge that.

My post, really, comes from an entirely different perspective, and to those whose actions I want/wish to improve, will most likely have no influence at all. 

Tilting at windmills.

Keeps you busy!

Best wishes and deep breathes.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards

PS Have not heard of any Orange Eye.

CB - :aetsch:


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

@ Tabatha,
Sorry I mispelled your name! Determined to make today a better day than yesterday...
I suspect that I will be permanently lopsided from tilting.. but once the momentum is there... it's hard to stop.

Darla


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## Fond of Poodles

Great article and in my experience quite true.

I do understand Nola's point though. When I can't find the information regarding a pedigree online (PHR, OFA, and yes Google, lol), I have to go to someone "in the know". Some of them are well known poodle people who will answer anyone's question on pedigrees to the best of their knowledge, but others are as NOLA states people who only deal with others involved in the "world". For me either one is a resource that I will use if it provides me with the desired information. Not saying it's right though.


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## outwest

Fond of Poodles said:


> Great article and in my experience quite true.
> 
> I do understand Nola's point though. When I can't find the information regarding a pedigree online (PHR, OFA, and yes Google, lol), I have to go to someone "in the know". Some of them are well known poodle people who will answer anyone's question on pedigrees to the best of their knowledge, but others are as NOLA states people who only deal with others involved in the "world". For me either one is a resource that I will use if it provides me with the desired information. Not saying it's right though.


My only concern with this is there are a lot of poodle people who find it particularly satisfying to dog other breeders. Misinformation, wicked gossip, things that happened a decade ago all come up as if it was yesterday. If someone doesn't care for a person, somehow that translates to lousy dogs. I have honestly never met a wider group of snarky people as some dog breeders can be. Thus, I don't believe much that others tell me when it comes to purebred dogs. I try, as you do, to do my own research. I like to talk to owners of that line to see what they think about their dogs. I form my own educated opinions because I know first hand how much information is twisted to sound much better or much worse than it is.


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## Fond of Poodles

@outwest, sadly there is more than a grain of truth to that. You've got the right of it - you have to look at the source and determine where it's coming from. It took me years to garner the courage to come right out and ask "is there cancer, SA, epilepsy in your lines?" I've had people literally look at me like I'm nuts, I've had emails go unanswered, and I've had others that are so taken by surprise that they answer with the truth, lol! 

On the flip side though, I've met some wonderful, trustworthy and knowledgeable people who are completely honest and open, willing to share with a very keen, well researched newcomer. 

I'm a bit obsessive about details and I maintain my own database, often, after a conversation with someone, I will take notes and input it as "rumour" or "fact". I take information from this site as well, lol. It's an ongoing project, but it makes it easier when I'm looking at potential breeding, or purchasing a pup to have some information at the click of button.

I have a show notebook too, with all sorts of notes and observations. I've only been doing this for 5 years in earnest, and I'm still amazed and fascinated by the amount of knowledge that some people can put forward regarding lines.

I think times are changing though, and slowly, but surely, ethical, careful breeding is evolving.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Because things aren't always reported searching everywhere, talking to people are all really important to do. I not only utilize Google, but a couple of other search engines as well. 

I do think that times are changing and people are getting a bit more open about admitting to health issues with in their lines. This is critical for breeder's who want to make the best choices. But again, there are more people involved than just breeder's. PHR is utilized by researchers.. we are handicapping the very researchers who are trying to help our breed when we don't register health issues with PHR. Openly sharing is critical, being pro-active and registering those health issues is even more so. PHR is only as good as we poodle people choose to make it.

Darla


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## Brodie

peppersb said:


> The world needs more people like Brodie who are willing to walk away from the offer of a "free" puppy ($1,500, more or less?) in order to do the right thing -- refuse to sign a confidentiality agreement and report their dog's health problems to PHR. See the Bijou thread.


Thanks so much for your kind words.
We refused to be taken by this woman even though we have no pup and are out our money We have not heard from her again nor have we had any offer of some sort of refund. 
In "Brodie's" memory I feel we had to register with PHR. I take some solace in the fact that this may help others.
I have since heard that "Bijou" sells all her pups having had pediatric spay/neuter (not sure if this is true but plan to check it out). Brodie was a pediatric neuter that came available to us for purchase. I completed her application (prior to the offer of "Brodie") which if I am correct in recalling gives you the option of pediatric spay/neuter. From what I have heard (and this is only hearsay) there is no option available to the purchaser. Do you know if all pups from "Bijou" have been spayed/neuter at the time of purchase?


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## peppersb

Brodie said:


> Do you know if all pups from "Bijou" have been spayed/neuter at the time of purchase?


Looks like the do spay/neuter the puppies. The following is from the Bijou web site. 

YOUR PUPPY COMES WITH :
- Collar 
- Health Record
- Leash (3-4 foot) 
- Registration Papers
- Toy (with mom's scent)
-Up to date Vaccinations 
- Microchip Permanent ID
- Tails and Dewclaws done
- Life time Breeder Support
- Spay and or Neuter Completed
- 5 Generation Pedigree (family tree) with photos
- Cage - 27"x19"x17"H (included in shipping charge)
- Food Sample to last a few days if puppy is picked up
- International Health Certificate from our Vet stating puppy is healthy.
- Owner's Manual addressing EVERYTHING from Obedience to crate training.
- DVD containing photos of mom pregnant and of the pups WEEKLY until they go home.
- Guarantee and 24/7 LIFETIME breeder support, emails are answered within 24 hours or sooner


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## bigredpoodle

outwest said:


> My only concern with this is there are a lot of poodle people who find it particularly satisfying to dog other breeders. Misinformation, wicked gossip, things that happened a decade ago all come up as if it was yesterday. If someone doesn't care for a person, somehow that translates to lousy dogs. I have honestly never met a wider group of snarky people as some dog breeders can be. Thus, I don't believe much that others tell me when it comes to purebred dogs. I try, as you do, to do my own research. I like to talk to owners of that line to see what they think about their dogs. I form my own educated opinions because I know first hand how much information is twisted to sound much better or much worse than it is.


Oh how very true this is ! Wow hit the nail right on the head with this one OUTWEST...Nothing better than referrals from your pet owners...:amen:


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## CT Girl

bigredpoodle said:


> Oh how very true this is ! Wow hit the nail right on the head with this one OUTWEST...Nothing better than referrals from your pet owners...:amen:


Why are you resurrecting this old thread?


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## bigredpoodle

CT Girl said:


> Why are you resurrecting this old thread?


Did not realize that I was ..


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## cindyreef

I for one am glad you did! I learned something today......


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## patk

well since it has been resurrected, hopefully everyone realizes that the op has been identified elsewhere at pf as a breeder whose dogs were taken from her after being found in deplorable conditions. that thread was recently updated by a pf member:

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/21269-another-raid.html


maybe i'm jumping to conclusions, but it seems that even here we have to be wary of those who talk a good line. i guess talking the talk and walking the walk are really two different things.


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## Countryboy

patk said:


> but it seems that even here we have to be wary of those who talk a good line.


We also should be wary of new members who don't know the people involved. Their opinions can hardly be of any value.


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## patk

Countryboy said:


> We also should be wary of new members who don't know the people involved. Their opinions can hardly be of any value.


well i guess i'm guilty as charged, since i'm pretty new. so hope i haven't stepped on toes. but i did notice the other thread on the op and i have to admit it has colored my views.


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## cindyreef

Countryboy said:


> We also should be wary of new members who don't know the people involved. Their opinions can hardly be of any value.




OMGosh!!!! I hope and want to believe this statement is not meant as incredibly ignorant and rude as it sounds! I consider myself a newer member and would hate to think you all think my opinions don't count. 


BTW I read the thread about the raid and its sickening. Its also very frustrating reading a thread when you don't know who they are talking about and wonder if it is someone you have been listening to. And most seem to talk like we should already know who it is. Thanks to this thread I learned a little about how PHR works (or don't) and about this "wall of silence". AND I found out who was involved in the raid, since some didn't want to mention the name in the "raid " thread.


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## Fluffyspoos

I'd never take what Yadda said as anything of value considering how she treated her dogs. My garbage get treated better than the conditions her dogs were found in.


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## sulamk

Countryboy said:


> We also should be wary of new members who don't know the people involved. Their opinions can hardly be of any value.[/QUOTE
> What has knowing the people involved got to do with anything?
> This statement is very rude, also contradictory on a forum do you know the people behind their user names? Yes you know when they joined this forum, but they could have been in the dog world for many years prior to joining.


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## CT Girl

sulamk said:


> Countryboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> We also should be wary of new members who don't know the people involved. Their opinions can hardly be of any value.[/QUOTE
> What has knowing the people involved got to do with anything?
> This statement is very rude, also contradictory on a forum do you know the people behind their user names? Yes you know when they joined this forum, but they could have been in the dog world for many years prior to joining.
> 
> 
> 
> On the face of it I agree it does sound rude. If you have belonged to the forum a while it is more understandable. The poodle world is a small one and can be vicious. There have been instances where new members have had an agenda which seems to be slam and discredit other breeders. Often these people do have a long history in the dog world and they pass themselves off as newbies when actually they themselves are breeders. Sometimes an old thread is resurrected because a new person is using the search function and has a legitimate question and sometimes it is brought up to point out perceived flaws in someone's breeding program by someone with a hidden agenda.
> 
> The case of Yadda really brings home the point that you don't really know who is posting. Yadda was a respected member of this forum who advocated reporting of health conditions to a national registry and she is/was and advocate of low COI. I could not have been more shocked when the raid uncovered the deplorable conditions her dogs lived in. The thought of it still brings me to tears.
> 
> The vast majority of us do not have a secret agenda. We are just people who love poodles and want to help each other out and act in the interest of poodles. Despite what has happened I still take people at face value until proven wrong. I find secret digs at breeders very telling about character. If someone has an issue with someone's breeding philosophy just come out and say it. Sly innuendoes and snarky remarks are so distasteful.
Click to expand...


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## sulamk

I entirely agree with you! CB post rubbed me up the wrong way! coming from another continent I dont know your breeders ! But admit the dog world can be vicious and not just the dogs! In any land!


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## Countryboy

I don't usually wrap my arguments in a lot of extra verbiage. They tend to be blunt and to-the-point. Call them rude if u like. 

So... carry on ladies... rattle on over an incident that u were not involved in, and had no private, or even public, interaction with ANY of the characters involved.

U already know how I value yr opinions...


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## peppersb

*Very sad*

What is it that Chagall's mom has in her signature? "Just be nice." Good advice for all of us.

To give Country Boy the benefit of the doubt, the way I read his comment was that this was a complex issue and people without the background really don't know what's happening. So it makes me sad to hear people call him rude. CB makes great contributions to this forum, and I'd hate to see him get insulted and step back. I love his unique view on things even though I don't always agree.

And talk about feeling sad.... The whole Yadda thing is just overwhelmingly sad and complex. I think I may have learned more from her posts than from any other single forum member. She was a wealth of info about COI, % Wycliffe and more. And then, the seizure was a total surprise and and probably more complex than we realize. I really don't think that any of us have the full story. It is just unbearably sad.


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## liljaker

peppersb said:


> What is it that Chagall's mom has in her signature? "Just be nice." Good advice for all of us.
> 
> To give Country Boy the benefit of the doubt, the way I read his comment was that this was a complex issue and people without the background really don't know what's happening. So it makes me sad to hear people call him rude. CB makes great contributions to this forum, and I'd hate to see him get insulted and step back. I love his unique view on things even though I don't always agree.
> 
> And talk about feeling sad.... The whole Yadda thing is just overwhelmingly sad and complex. I think I may have learned more from her posts than from any other single forum member. She was a wealth of info about COI, % Wycliffe and more. And then, the seizure was a total surprise and and probably more complex than we realize. I really don't think that any of us have the full story. It is just unbearably sad.


You know what they say, "even a broken clock is right twice a day." This has always been a favorite saying of mine and in Yadda's case, that seems to be the case. Of course there are always 2 sides, but this was pretty well discussed when it happened, and the good news is most of the poodles are now in loving forever homes.


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## cindyreef

Fluffyspoos said:


> I'd never take what Yadda said as anything of value considering how she treated her dogs. My garbage get treated better than the conditions her dogs were found in.



Its not about what "yadda" said. I was referring to the quote by Countryboy about new members opinions being of no value. This was uncalled for in the context it seems to refer. This forum is for new members too, and all of us should be treated with respect.


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## CharismaticMillie

I actually assumed that Countryboy must have been speaking with sarcasm, possibly in defense of new members, simply because taken at face value, what he said was so inconceivable mean as a general statement. Ha! Shows what I know. :/


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## Chagall's mom

Hi *peppersb*: I see you quoted my siggie (Just be nice). I want to add to, "... to poodles!" It is a stinking, rotten shame the poodles were so ill-treated. The only upside here is the wonderful rescue folks at the Forget Me Not Shelter and PCA who quietly went about their mission and managed to rehabilitate and save as many as they did. I cheer those good folks, and think the spotlight should be on _them._ And supporting their future good works. (Click on the name of the Forget Me Not Shelter in this link to read more about these unforgettable poodles.)
Pet Relocation Spotlight: A Poodle Rescue Story | PetRelocation.com


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## CT Girl

Chagall's mom said:


> Hi *peppersb*: I see you quoted my siggie (Just be nice). I want to add to, "... to poodles!" It is a stinking, rotten shame the poodles were so ill-treated. The only upside here is the wonderful rescue folks at the Forget Me Not Shelter and PCA who quietly went about their mission and managed to rehabilitate and save as many as they did. I cheer those good folks, and think the spotlight should be on _them._ And supporting their future good works. (Click on the name of the Forget Me Not Shelter in this link to read more about these unforgettable poodles.)
> Pet Relocation Spotlight: A Poodle Rescue Story | PetRelocation.com


This is why I love you Chagall's Mom. You focus on what is important and always highlight the positive.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

:amen::amen:


peppersb said:


> What is it that Chagall's mom has in her signature? "Just be nice." Good advice for all of us.
> 
> To give Country Boy the benefit of the doubt, the way I read his comment was that this was a complex issue and people without the background really don't know what's happening. So it makes me sad to hear people call him rude. CB makes great contributions to this forum, and I'd hate to see him get insulted and step back. I love his unique view on things even though I don't always agree.
> 
> And talk about feeling sad.... The whole Yadda thing is just overwhelmingly sad and complex. I think I may have learned more from her posts than from any other single forum member. She was a wealth of info about COI, % Wycliffe and more. And then, the seizure was a total surprise and and probably more complex than we realize. I really don't think that any of us have the full story. It is just unbearably sad.


:amen::amen::amen:


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## cindyreef

Thankyou peppersb and CTGirl for helping to smooth some of our feathers  (if I may). It never crossed my mind that new members may be someone in disguise with an agenda. I fall into the vast majority of poodle owners just loving their dogs. 
I just think that intended rudeness shouldn't be allowed. I see now that countryboy responded and still said he doesn't give a ..... about our opinions. I was hoping for a different more mature response..but oh well, I guess I will have to learn to take some older members opinions with a grain of salt. It will take more than an off hand comment to get me to leave. lol Even with my newbie poodle questions, I have always been treated extremely well by everyone here and I appreciate that immensely.


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## peppersb

Chagall's mom said:


> Hi *peppersb*: I see you quoted my siggie (Just be nice). I want to add to, "... to poodles!" It is a stinking, rotten shame the poodles were so ill-treated. The only upside here is the wonderful rescue folks at the Forget Me Not Shelter and PCA who quietly went about their mission and managed to rehabilitate and save as many as they did. I cheer those good folks, and think the spotlight should be on _them._ And supporting their future good works. (Click on the name of the Forget Me Not Shelter in this link to read more about these unforgettable poodles.)
> Pet Relocation Spotlight: A Poodle Rescue Story | PetRelocation.com


I did not mean to imply that it is in any way shape or form acceptable to let the poodles get to the shape that they were in when they were seized. Any breeder (or poodle owner for that matter) should give all of their dogs to rescue and stop breeding long before things got as bad as they did.


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## Keithsomething

No...everything is a no here. First of all country boy where do you get off being rude and saying new people's opinions dot matter? I think it's fair to say someone who defends a hoarder or a puppy mill if you will doesn't have the most sound opinion out there. Second this "breeder" was cruel and evil to her dogs point period blank. This thread should never have been resurrected and I think people should apologize for stepping out of THEIR place.

I'd also like to add that owning and breeding dogs that look nothing like poodles at all isn't something to be proud of no matter how "diverse" their pedigrees are...if you like perhaps look into another breed PWD? IWS? Labs?


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## patk

hey, guys, as the party who seems to have opened this can of worms by referring to the raid thread, may i just say that looking at "join" dates, country boy has been here only as long as some of you (2011) and certainly not as long as keithsomething (2009). i've only been here since june of this year, so i'm probably the newbie he was chastising. the reason i didn't bark back (and i do bark back) is that the other thread has references to illness of the op. i know that some have said illness is no excuse, but illness is a pretty generic term. in combination with age, especially, it can mean a lot of things that end up with folks losing control of their lives. so can we please not pile into each other over this. as far as i am concerned, the op's credibility as an expert breeder is in doubt because her dogs had to be rescued from her. but maybe there was a reason beyond being an evil person that that happened; there seem to be a couple of people here with some standing (at least in my mind) who think there is, so i'm willing to let it rest there and hope others can do the same.


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## Keithsomething

Patk I agree to an extent illness played a huge role in this...but ego played an even bigger role. This breeder had a HUGE following online that hung to her every word and I will admit I was swayed by her posts and intelligence. But knowing the facts makes it VERY hard to stmpathize with her. She knew she was under water and was offered help by the PCA to relinquish her dogs to them (dogs that should NEVER be bred mind you) but refused their help and wasn't another year until the PCA and the rescue group were able to put into action a plan to stop her neglect of the animals...if you go to the rescues website I'm pretty sure they still have the story of each of these animals they rehabilitated on there.

She had a bitch chained in a barn with a litter
Of puppies...if you get a chance or if someone would be kind enough to pm you the link to the thread or website you might get a glimpse of the horror these animals lived in EVERYDAY...while she lived what 20mi away from the property? Unexcusable...and I find the defending of her character disgusting by members that witnesse these photos when they surfaced.


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## patk

keithsomething, i hear you. as i said, i read the raid thread and that's why i posted in this one, thinking that folks should be careful about assuming they had happened on the poodle oracle. on the other hand, i'm on the board of a condo association now and i have witnessed some of the issues associated with aging among our owners and residents. i don't know if that's involved and have no intention of implying i know. but i can tell you that lives do get out of control; people function well in one aspect of life and are off the cliff in others. we have also had experience in the past with a bipolar individual who was extremely bright, charming, spoke and wrote well, but could not resist embellishing his credentials and was very hungry for power - to the point where he tried to destroy the reputation of a couple of other people and threatened to sue our association in the process. illness is not always physical or even physically debilitating.

the people i'm saying we should give some leeway to are active participants in this forum whose posts i have enjoyed. i don't hear them defending an oracle. i hear them saying to me, don't condemn so readily as you don't know everything. so i'm saying, okay, fine, i can respect that. just as i can respect you for your concern on this issue - and thank you for starting the raid thread to begin with, because otherwise i could be one of those sitting at the knee of an oracle without doing any questioning.


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## KirklandPoodle

Hey Countryboy, do all dog breeds have genetic testing available? I'm not sure that is the case. Ive had experience in another breed where the breeder knowingly covered up significant health problems, but still managed to title their dogs and special relatives of those dogs...


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## Jacknic

[KirklandPoodle, "Hey Countryboy, do all dog breeds have genetic testing available? I'm not sure that is the case. Ive had experience in another breed where the breeder knowingly covered up significant health problems, but still managed to title their dogs and special relatives of those dogs..."]

I would think all breeds have some type of health testing suggested, here is a link for OFA listing.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

I think secrets in breeding dogs is just indicative to real life, either people are afraid it will hurt their reputations, or maybe just delusional thinking if no one knows it isn't true, just like families hiding alcoholism or an unwanted pregnancy. Is it right, of course not, amazing that the person who started this thread was hiding a huge secret, truth is stranger then fiction.


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## 3dogs

I think some breeds tend not to go into as much detail as the Poodle people. I recently was at a conformation dog show & I was talking to Husky breeders & they had no clue what a COI was, same went with the Keeshond & Alaskan Klee Kai breeders although the AKK breeders were very aware of their health issues in the breed & did do extensive health testing. I though did become knowledgeable about the Sammi gait vs the S. Husky gait. As well as learning about how there is an "older" gait style & the "newer fad" gait. They one SH owner with the "old" gait was impressed with the judges knowledge of the gaits. Learn something new every time I go to a show.


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## Jacknic

We --poodle folks -- are very fortunate to have a pedigree database, Poodle Heath Registry and such a strong parent club that list health issues on their website. It amazes me that other breeds have none of these luxuries at their finger tips. It seems we are like our dogs, and more intelligent then the average bear.


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## Carley's Mom

I always hate to see any of her threads come up... wish we could wipe her off this forum for good. I rarely agreed with anything she said anyway. She brought me to tears talking about her dog(Vic) that passed and then to find out how she treated her dogs later, made me sick.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I appreciated her input here. She was/is a very knowledgable woman about the need for diversity, low COI's, etc. It broke my heart to see and read about all that happened, but feel that, as horrible as it all was, that none of us have the right to judge someone who clearly had/have mental issues and personal issues none of us are privy to. I have also seen a lot of photos of her dogs, and found some of them and some of the puppies to be quite nicely put together. She was a very active and well respected member of various groups on the internet supporting diversity, and was at least doing what she was saying...not a do as I say, not as I do kind of person. The dogs are all in a good place now, and I pray she is too. I understand some of the anger regarding this situation, but it is very easy to be hateful without having a lot of information.


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## Keithsomething

Patk I think something that hasn't been addressed on this forum were some of the conversations being had BY these "active" members whose first thought was "oh god...we're going to lose these diverse pedigrees" not the shock and horror that should have been felt instead (some started sayin they were shocked when I pointed out how disgusting they were for thinking these dogs who were basically wild dogs at this point should be placed with breeders with breeding rights...)

I'm not judging her illness if that's what it was Cherie...I'm judging her on the fact that she KNEW she was over her head and refused help, and on the hypocrisy of the whole situation. These were not her pets, seeing as she didnt even live on the property with them...they were merely tools to "save the poodle breed"...only they looked nothing like poodles (gosh even poodles from the 20's had more type then some of these dogs...). I have sympathy for her I'm not that heartless...but sympathy for her is overrun by the pain inflicted on these poor dogs...whether she was/is sick has nothing to do with owning your actions, and her illness should not over shadow what these dogs had to live like


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## Fluffyspoos

I disagree that her dogs had anything to bring to the breed, it could be the horrible conditions they were in, but I didn't find their conformation pleasing to the eye. If you want to risk breeding to ugly dogs not fitting the standard just to lower the coi, may as well breed to labs.

She was just basically a savvy politician that was all smooth talk and a lot of lies.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Once those dogs were cleaned up some of them had rather nice conformation. Have you ever been on the Standard Poodle Project? There are many, many breeders there who believe diversity, at this point in the breed's history, needs to be the #1 priority. And we are all entitled to our own opinions. 

I think she IS being judged for being mentally ill, but having mental health issues myself, am very familar with the stigma associated with it, and the unkindness and total lack of understanding on a great deal of societies parts. Sad, but true.


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## Caniche

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Once those dogs were cleaned up some of them had rather nice conformation. Have you ever been on the Standard Poodle Project? There are many, many breeders there who believe diversity, at this point in the breed's history, needs to be the #1 priority. And we are all entitled to our own opinions.
> 
> I think she IS being judged for being mentally ill, but having mental health issues myself, am very familar with the stigma associated with it, and the unkindness and total lack of understanding on a great deal of societies parts. Sad, but true.


I admit, I have never talked to this breeder on the forum and don't know of her. So, in essence, I should probably keep my mouth shut.

BUT I will say that our society is severely lacking in how we handle mental illness. Other than psychopaths and sociopaths (which I do know a lot about for my job) I don't think people ever INTEND to hurt or cause harm to animals. And from what I've read on here, I'm assuming that she was thinking she was doing what was best - but her mental illness kept her from seeing what was really happening. After all, hoarders don't realize they're hoarders. 

I hope she gets help, and I also hope the law keeps her from owning any more pets.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Caniche said:


> I admit, I have never talked to this breeder on the forum and don't know of her. So, in essence, I should probably keep my mouth shut.
> 
> BUT I will say that our society is severely lacking in how we handle mental illness. Other than psychopaths and sociopaths (which I do know a lot about for my job) I don't think people ever INTEND to hurt or cause harm to animals. And from what I've read on here, I'm assuming that she was thinking she was doing what was best - but her mental illness kept her from seeing what was really happening. After all, hoarders don't realize they're hoarders.
> 
> I hope she gets help, and I also hope the law keeps her from owning any more pets.


I could not agree more!


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## Keithsomething

...I don't understand how this has become a conversation on mental illness only. Whether she was or is ill does not negate WHAT she did...I work with people with a plethora of mental illnesses, and I worked with children with disorders as well...and never once have I heard these individuals hide behind their impairments. People know right from wrong, people understand the choices they make have consequences, and people know that sometimes those consequences aren't worth it.

I never once stated that her illness was wrong or judged her on it...I do judge her on her actions though...and those actions have spoken more deeply to me then ANY of her thousand word selloquies that were posted all over the Internet.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Keithsomething said:


> ...I don't understand how this has become a conversation on mental illness only. Whether she was or is ill does not negate WHAT she did...I work with people with a plethora of mental illnesses, and I worked with children with disorders as well...and never once have I heard these individuals hide behind their inpairments. People know right from wrong, people understand the choices they make have consequences, and people know that sometimes those consequences aren't worth it.
> 
> I never once stated that her illness was wrong or judged her on it...I do judge her on her actions though...and those actions have spoken more deeply to me then ANY of her thousand word selloquies that were posted all over the Internet.


There are many mental illnesses where the person is not aware of their actions. Like the previous poster said about hoarders, they don't know they are hoarders. Her actions were not acceptable- to us- but obviously she did not see anything wrong with her actions or would have done something about the situation before it got so out of hand. And I do not think she was "hiding behind her impairment" because I am pretty suere she did not realize she had one.


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## outwest

I hate even dredging it all up again, but rumor was people had known for a long time there was a problem. I have wanted to know why it took so long for anyone to actually do anything about it. Those dogs were in a hideous state. It was obvious they had been that way a long, long time. You can't grow matted coat to the ground in a couple months. She was not capable of helping herself or the dogs. People must have decided to 'mind their own business'. That's what I am most upset about. Those are the ones who should be ashamed.


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## Keithsomething

Out west she refused the help when it was offered to her...she didnt need help, thankfully PCA and this rescue were able to work in conjunction with local authorities and remedy her mistakes


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Now that is some misinformation. She DID ask for help about a year before all of this happened and she was physically ill. She was told "all or nothing". She had to give up every, single dong or whoever she was in touch with would not take any of the dogs. THAT is an issue to me. Would it not have been better to rescue most of the dogs?? She was not prepared to be dogless, so said no thanks. She was extremely forthcoming about this on her own web site.


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## Caniche

outwest said:


> I hate even dredging it all up again, but rumor was people had known for a long time there was a problem. I have wanted to know why it took so long for anyone to actually do anything about it. Those dogs were in a hideous state. It was obvious they had been that way a long, long time. You can't grow matted coat to the ground in a couple months. She was not capable of helping herself or the dogs. People must have decided to 'mind their own business'. That's what I am most upset about. Those are the ones who should be ashamed.


Unfortunately, laws regarding animal abuse and neglect are not nearly as strict or rigorous as they should be. I've seen animal abysses walk away with jail weekends for a month or a small fine. And, in many states, being convicted once does not keep you from owning pets in the future. Our legislation has a LONG way to go in working against animal abuse and neglect. 

And yes, people should not walk away from situations. But it is not illegal to -not- get involved. And while I question the ethics and morals of people who didn't, I cannot judge them because I don't know their situation.

Also, I'm not sure if any of you have seen a situation where someone who thinks they're doing the best for their beloved pets (such as hoarders) are having them taken away. Often, they become violent and aggressive and threatening. I wouldn't want a civilian walking up to someone with mental issues and trying to interfere either. Authorities should have been made aware sooner, yes. But, to be fair, perhaps someone did call and no one took them seriously or the situation wasn't "bad" enough to warrant animal removal. I'm just saying, it's possible.

Like I said, the lack of knowledge on mental disorders in our society is staggering. We can play the "I have a lot of experience" card all night, but even experts in these fields have many unanswered questions. And stigmas about the mentally ill are overwhelming and nobody seems to have an interest in learning until it's too late. Which is when we stand around and say: "Why didn't someone *do* something?" Because it's never your neighbor, family member, friend or yourself with a mental issue. It's always that 'other guy.' 

As I said, I hope she gets help, the animals find loving homes, and she's prevented from owning any more. And I hope people learn something from this.


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## Caniche

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Now that is some misinformation. She DID ask for help about a year before all of this happened and she was physically ill. She was told "all or nothing". She had to give up every, single dong or whoever she was in touch with would not take any of the dogs. THAT is an issue to me. Would it not have been better to rescue most of the dogs?? She was not prepared to be dogless, so said no thanks. She was extremely forthcoming about this on her own web site.


Unfortunately, that is the truth too. Hoarders become extremely attached to their objects/animals/collections. No hoarder, without force, would give up all their pets at once. Thankfully, I've seen law enforcement officers approach this subject with the hoarder and offers to let the hoarder keep some animals. Usually, the LEO comes back every week or so and takes more until the hoarder has a reasonable number. If you take a hoarder's complete collection away, they'll just hoard again. It's about educating them on managing a few pets rather than many.


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## Keithsomething

What I said was not misinformation...she refused the help. Rescuing "most" of the animals when they were all being neglected? That seems like a much better idea to me -.-

I want to clarify I never claimed to be an expert on mental illnesses, but I think I've done more research into this topic then most...and if anyone is feeding misinformation it isn't me.

I hope she gets help, and maybe one day she can start breeding again...but at what point do you stop and say wow...we've let this happen again...whispering pines is a good example, she's trying to drudge up dogs as we speak, and then what? Do we do what you said most people do caniche and just stand around and say we should have done more? Or do we stick at it and ensure this never happens again


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## Caniche

Keithsomething said:


> What I said was not misinformation...she refused the help. Rescuing "most" of the animals when they were all being neglected? That seems like a much better idea to me -.-
> 
> I want to clarify I never claimed to be an expert on mental illnesses, but I think I've done more research into this topic then most...and if anyone is feeding misinformation it isn't me.
> 
> I hope she gets help, and maybe one day she can start breeding again...but at what point do you stop and say wow...we've let this happen again...whispering pines is a good example, she's trying to drudge up dogs as we speak, and then what? Do we do what you said most people do caniche and just stand around and say we should have done more? Or do we stick at it and ensure this never happens again


You can't *stop* mental illness.


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## Keithsomething

I think you misinterpreted what I meant...I would never say you could stop mental illness that's plain ignorant...but as a poodle community we can stop her from neglecting multiple animals again, the problem is there are people so stuck on her that they feel she should be breeding again and that she should be allowed to own breeding animals...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Well, I am done here. I am going to say something I will regret later, so will bow out before that happens. Thank you Caniche for your mindful insight. Suffering from agoraphobia and recently diagnosed PTSD, I feel for this woman, While I was sickened at the conditions the dogs were in, my heart still goes out to this obviously troubled soul who DID try to get help. In most cases I love all mammals- four footed AND two footed and I hope those who are judging her the most never experience something as profound as what she must have neen going through for things to have gone so far. If you ever do experience something similar, I hope you have the foresight to get help and not judge yourself as harshly as you have judged her.


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## CharismaticMillie

caniche said:


> as i said, i hope she gets help, the animals find loving homes, and she's prevented from owning any more. And i hope people learn something from this.


yes!!


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