# Behavior changes after spay/neuter



## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Just came across this interesting article in my FB news feed and thought I'd share. References are at the bottom of the article. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...vior-changes-when-dogs-are-spayed-or-neutered


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

That's interesting, because my personal experience has been the opposite. Maizie got way sweeter and calmer when she was spayed. She is the least aggressive dog possible. In my experience of dozens of my own family's dogs and foster dogs, spaying and neutering either does nothing to a dog's behavior or it makes it more positive (less humping, marking, aggression). Oh, and the mom of one of my preschooler's showed me video footage of her dog in heat, crying and trying to make everything into her puppy and she said that she did that all day and all night when she's in heat!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That was an interesting read. My agility trainer has been to Europe with her dogs several times. All kinds of things are very different about the lives of dogs in Europe. There they stay in hotels no problem and go to restaurants no problem much more commonly that here. 

I certainly have become aware that neutering male dogs is not so strongly associated with health benefits as it was once believed to be, and hence both my boys have all of their parts. For Lily I did opt for an early spay for a number of reasons. I can't say whether that has made he a different dog or not since I can't travel an alternate time line with her as an intact bitch to know for sure, but I am happy enough not to have to plan our trial schedule around whether she will be coming in season or going out at a time when we want to show.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

That was interesting, but my personal experience has been little to no change at all after spay/neuter, and I've never experienced it being negative.


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

Huh, I didn't notice any changes in any of my three dogs after spay/neuter.


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## UKpoodle (Jul 22, 2015)

Gunther was castrated 6 weeks ago. He is nearly 3 years old and I didn't have any expectations about it changing his behaviour, but the difference has been quite dramatic. He is way more mellow and much less excitable, particularly around other dogs. He was also regularly at the receiving end of aggressive behaviour from other male dogs we met on walks, but this seems to have stopped too. His marking has reduced hugely as well. My husband says that he's turned into a boring dog!


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I never saw any change in my females when they were fixed they were 12 months to 15 months old


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I have always had males, all were neutered except for my previous dog, Charlie. Charlie was often a target for canine aggression, never the aggressor. No personality or behavioral changes in the neutered boys, that I noticed.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> All kinds of things are very different about the lives of dogs in Europe. There they stay in hotels no problem and go to restaurants no problem much more commonly that here.


Dog owners seem to be more responsible with their dogs in Europe, don't they?


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Interesting that this came out just as I am spaying my girl next week. But she is 5.5 years old. I am hoping for a little less seasonal moodiness for training purposes, but we'll see. 

Overall I think the behavioral effects of S/N are pretty modest in both directions.

Several have noted that the main behavioral issue with intact males is aggression *towards* them by neutered males.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

My intact male GSD, Peeves, has definitely been on the receiving end of aggressive behavior from neutered males on three separate occasions, one of which was a very nasty male PB that had run at him once and was successfully called by by the owner (or someone else in his household). the same dog charged at Peeves again and managed to roll him over in the street, but since BF kicked the other dog and I sprayed it with citronella before he got teeth on our dog he backed off. The same dog also wounded the friendly lab that belonged to an old neighbor, requiring about $600 or more of a vet bill.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

http://straydogscampaign.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/DR_Dutch-Straydogs.pdf

The comment about it being illegal to spay or neuter a dog in Norway caused me to wonder about the prevalence of strays in that country as well as the rest of Europe. Didn't find Norway, but thought the Dutch paper was interesting. I thought the reason we are so sterilization inclined was to reduce unintended puppies and make it easier to live with a dog; male or female. 

My husband and son strongly objected (projection much?) to having Charlie neutered. My vet said there was no medical reason to do it, which seems to be the European stance. Would he have been less of a target if every male he encountered was also unaltered? Kinda doubt it.


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

My experience also goes against the studies - Asta was neutered at 1 & 1/2 yr. old. He is much calmer, less aggressive, more companionable. Never any marking. He pays attention to me in training. All in all, a better pet.


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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

My Dane was neutered at ten months while he was still a happy go lucky goofy puppy. By 18 months he was leash reactive, and he's dealt with anxiety his whole life. He's a neurotic basket case and not at all what a Dane should be, but he's also poorly bred so it could also be mainly genetics. But he's a much bigger handful than my intact Dane boy was, and he's a good 35-40lbs smaller. 


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Mfmst said:


> I have always had males, all were neutered except for my previous dog, Charlie. Charlie was often a target for canine aggression, never the aggressor. No personality or behavioral changes in the neutered boys, that I noticed.


I had also experienced this with my male Dane prior to my divorce. He's 2 1/2 and intact. He hasn't ever displayed any kind of behavioral problems beyond being an idiot teenager, but several neutered dogs have taken a snap at him. All my other pets have been spayed or neutered quite young, so I wouldn't have noticed a difference. Asaah was spayed around age 2 1/2 and is now close to 5. I didn't notice any difference in behavior, but she's pretty rock solid.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

I know this is an old thread but I stumbled upon it as I’ve been obsessively researching the last few weeks.

Five weeks ago, our toy poodle, Ella, was spayed at just over 9 months (per our requirement with breeder in contract). Since then she has become incredibly aggressive. It’s actually getting worse rather than better. We have a local breeder/trainer coming to see her tomorrow to evaluate (our breeder who isn’t local requested this). She has become Jekyll and Hyde, and when she is aggressive, she turns Cujo-like. It’s actually very scary. She has bitten us all many times (including my son’s face). We’ve had to put her in the kennel to sleep as she had started attacking us while we slept.

I’m hoping to get some thoughts when the breeder/trainer comes tomorrow. 

I’ve consulted many people about or situation (vet who said surgery was without complication and she healed perfectly, our other trainer who said she won’t work with extreme aggression and recommends sending her back or a vet behaviorist, plus several other breeders I am friendly with). Most seem to be of the opinion that she is neurotic with a bad temperament and that the spay surgery flipped a switch. She did have neurotic tendencies when we got her — intense need to lick, excessive barking, and she did bite my son once in the face and drew blood and punctured his lip but we put it down as being new to our home at the time and scared). The vet behaviorist local to us charges $190 per hour with a mandatory 3.5 hour assessment. 

We didn’t get her until she was seven months old and her breeder was an older single woman so our home is very different than she was used to. But our other dog also came to us at 7 months old (a boy) and he is a dream and has never shown any signs of aggression.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Last year before we neutered our boys, and recently because of another thread, I'd been looking at a lot of online info. I'm sure you've run across a lot of the same material. 

I did find one article referring to female aggression after spay that gave me a bit of a facepalm moment. The topic there was hormones thus the facepalm. If some human women have behavior changes after removal of reproductive organs, why couldn't a dog too? It may not be the right answer but it's one that makes sense on the surface. 

Spaying typically removes ovaries and uterus but some vets may only remove the uterus. I'm not sure what difference that makes re which hormones can get out of whack, but something to consider. 

The first article naturally recommends consulting with your vet and running blood tests. I'll just put the link here: 

https://healthyandhappydog.wordpress.com/countering-the-effects-of-spay/

But in looking further I found a seemingly contradictory article: 

https://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/can_spaying_make_dog_behavior_worse/

They both seem to contain information from respectable sources and as I read again, the contradiction diminished. The first article is not referring to supplementing progestins, but different hormones. 

Bottom line of all this is that some blood tests to see if she is hormone deficient, or even having some thyroid issues might be worth talking to your vet about. 

In my Noel's later years, she would start snapping and growling in her sleep to the point of startling herself, and she would also go after her sister, we think unprovoked. Hormones never crossed my mind. Our vet at the time put Nelly on Prozac, which did reduce her aggressive snappishness but didn't change her personality otherwise. Ella seems so young to go that route. 

If your vet hasn't suggested some blood tests, it might be worth considering. The increase in her behavior may be related to the surgery, or possibly to some other physical cause.


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## BabetteH (May 1, 2019)

German person here: We don't have "limited registration" and spay/neuter contracts are only a thing for rescue dogs. We don't have stray dogs roaming the streets. Kill shelters are illegal. We don't have rabies either for many years. To cross the boarder, dogs must be chipped. 

If you want to breed, your dog needs all DNA/xrays/eye tests for the breed, needs to satisfy the FCI standard as adult, and an official person from the club needs to confirm that the parents are a good match, otherwise the puppies are not considers pure bred. That has the advantage, that irresponsible/uninformed people can't make money with breeding and we don't have tons of puppies with health issues. 

If a vet is interpreting the law strictly, spaying/neutering is unnecessary animal cruelty and illegal. In practice it's no problem finding a vet. It's legal for cats as those are outside without supervision which would result in lots of kittens, so it's not unnecessary. Tail docking is illegal as it's considered unnecessary cruelty as well. 

Our last dog was a 95 lbs Hovawart, intact. Never had any accidents or marked indoors. Not aggressive or destructive. We took him on lots of walks and to dog training 2 or 3 times a week, so he wouldn't get bored.

What's noticeably different in Germany: most dogs are off leash, though technically that's not legal. But it's like walking a red light in NYC, everybody does it even in front of police officers. The vast majority of dogs you meet here have a solid recall and basic manners. Dogs are allowed in restaurants and trains (need to pay for a ticket) and airports.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I, also, have to completely disagree with the article. All my dogs have been spayed or neutered except for one. The ones I did alter were the sweetest, cuddliest, non aggressive dogs. They never marked in the house.

The one boy that I kept intact, as he got older and older, (I had him until he was 7), was aggressive - even starting fights with puppies! He was the ruler of the house, even though he really wasn't. He marked like crazy. As he got near 7 years old he got aggressive towards me. I couldn't even touch him when he was on my lap. He started guarding his food so much he couldn't even eat it. It was just horrible. I've never seen such behavior from any dog before or after.

I spay after the first heat, but I neuter early to keep them from getting sexually mature. I have found that is when the problems start. 

Just my own personal experience.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

The breeder who is picking her up today said she is going to run some blood tests. Honestly that hadn’t occurred to me so it’s definitely worth checking.

I had read a couple threads on a forum (upon search) that said hormones can cause aggression but that it should dissipate within two to four weeks of spaying. And i didn’t ever see a good reference that would indicate that.

Basically I have been in close and constant contact with our breeder since this began and so I guess we will wait and see what happens next. It’s been so challenging because we’ve all become afraid of her since we’ve been attacked so many times. 70% of the time she’s sweet so it’s such a contradiction.

I’ll be sure to post the findings of the breeder/trainer who is coming today.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

hmm well in my 40 years of dog ownership neutering, not neutering, different ages I have not had any behavior changes in my dogs. I know this thread is older but I believe here in the US dog population became a problem, to many strays and shelters were always over crowded. I think they built up the good points of neutering to help prevent unwanted litters. Today many of us are more aware and take care that our dogs do not breed. I've told this story before with my GSD, he was a very well trained dog and began marking in my house, by the time I figured it out I had to replace all the carpeting. He would just mark a time bit in corners enough to smell the house up but not enough to nice right away. He went from free run of the house to being confined to one room when I wasn't present. Back then no one neutered male dogs.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

When I was growing up, we had a family dog. We got him at about a year old. For the next six years, we dealt with him fighting other dogs, digging out of the fence and being gone for 3-4 days, then the follow up of calls Fritos neighbors saying our dog got theirs pregnant. He didn’t lidten to us much, and we could never let him out of the backyard as he would run right off and not come back for many hours or even the next day. 

Our vet told my dad he should get him neutered to try and alleviate some of the problems, especially the litters he was creating. My father debated for weeks over this. Finally he decided to have it done.

Dandy changed drastically. Never did he dig out of the years again. He never started another fight with a dog. When we let him out to be with us, he stayed in the front yard with us. He became what we always wanted from him. So in our case, neutering him at 7 years old made all the difference in the world! I have firmly believed in doing do since then.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

BabetteH said:


> German person here: We don't have "limited registration" and spay/neuter contracts are only a thing for rescue dogs. We don't have stray dogs roaming the streets. Kill shelters are illegal. We don't have rabies either for many years. To cross the boarder, dogs must be chipped.
> 
> If you want to breed, your dog needs all DNA/xrays/eye tests for the breed, needs to satisfy the FCI standard as adult, and an official person from the club needs to confirm that the parents are a good match, otherwise the puppies are not considers pure bred. That has the advantage, that irresponsible/uninformed people can't make money with breeding and we don't have tons of puppies with health issues.
> 
> ...


I have family in Germany Babette, and the culture is very different there. Much more of a responsible approach to pet ownership in general, and something we should emulate here in the US. I was raised with that approach and I am very thankful. I understand there is a recent trend in Germany to adopt rescue animals from other countries that are desexed now though. 

However, until folks in the US take responsibility for their pets in the same manner, I’m not sure we are ready to abandon spaying/ neutering. Not sure of the answer for the overpopulation here, we need a culture shift.

Rose n poos, interesting articles, thank you for posting.I discussed this issue with my vet at our last visit, and she agreed there is contradictory research. My older dogs are rescues and desexed, and it’s hard to say what is the root of any behavioral issues, as environment was also a factor. 

I’m not sure what I’m going to do with Gracie. She’s almost 6 months now, so I have time. 

Tammy, I’m sorry you’re having trouble with Ella. I hope the breeder/ trainer can offer some hope.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

I also don’t believe that spaying was the cause of this. I do think she has had a temperament problem from day one but that the surgery flipped a switch and made it worse.

So far the local breeder has had her less than two days and has left her be in an enclosure. Not a peep from Ella. Which isn’t a surprise. She barely moved from her crate for weeks when we first got her. Her friend who has some training background think it is fear-based aggression (mind you she hasn’t met Ella just going on the stories). I have a very qualified friend who thinks rage syndrome fits her profile. And our trainer (with Ollie) and Ollie’s breeder thinks it’s a temperament issue that will just get worse as she ages.

It’s been so stressful.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Tammy, I'm sorry you are having a difficult time with Ella. Sending you and Ella hugs and prayer for a good outcome.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

PuppyDream said:


> Tammy, I'm sorry you are having a difficult time with Ella. Sending you and Ella hugs and prayer for a good outcome.


Thank you so much. My biggest issue is that we were assured she was a well socialized dog with excellent temperament. From day one, it has been incredibly trying without a moment of peace. But we were working through it with patience and kindness. But aggression towards us is something we didn’t sign up for. We’ve all been bitten many times at this point (my son several times in the face). She has even attacked our other dog, Ollie, and I have zero confidence allowing others in the house around her (but if you put her in the kennel in another room she will non-stop bark). 

It’s one thing if we had gotten a rescue - we would expect to deal with issues. But we specifically worked hard to get a dog that was supposed to be well bred with an excellent temperament and that would fit well into our busy family and lifestyle. We’ve invested months of our time and attention and thousands of dollars. ?


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

You got her at 7 month old. I'm inclined to think that the pup's temperament would have shown by then. But there's nothing you can change about what has happened. Try to move on the best you can.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

PuppyDream said:


> You got her at 7 month old. I'm inclined to think that the pup's temperament would have shown by then. But there's nothing you can change about what has happened. Try to move on the best you can.


That is exactly what all my dog contacts have told us - a good friend who has raised and trained dogs her entire life, our trainer we used with Ollie (she won’t even work with Ella on aggression issues), and our other dog’s breeder. And I’m ready to move on, but unfortunately Ella’s breeder has been unwilling on this point. She has even blamed us for “letting Ella be the boss” with us and says that’s what has caused her aggression. It’s a sticky situation. Our contract says we are getting a dog with good temperament. And that we cannot do anything about Ella without contacting her. We have been in close contact every step of the way. Plus that refund is completely at her discretion. So at the moment, we are stuck. We can’t even go to small claims court as we are located on opposite sides of the country. It has been such a hard time for our family!


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I have been with Tammy on this journey, every step of the way. I helped her find Ella because I follow the breeder on FB and saw this drop-dead gorgeous, older brown puppy and knew Tammy was starting to look for a second dog after doing a great job raising Ollie. 

So, I talked with the breeder twice to try to figure out if Ella was the right match for Tammy and family. When I asked the breeder what Ella's personality was like, she said, "She's perfect." She said she was very sweet, cuddly, and well socialized. She said she took her everywhere with her. She never mentioned Ella being barky, "bossy," or downright aggressive. Biting Tammy's son on the face and drawing blood the first day is NOT normal behavior from a toy poodle, even under the stress of transportation, in my opinion. And Ella was picked up and rode in the cabin, not shipped in cargo. The breeder also didn't mention Ella's extreme overbite. 

I am so sad for you, Tammy. You have done everything right with Ella and you have really been let down by the breeder. It is extremely wrong for her to try to insinuate that you are a possible cause of Ella's behavior problems. No way. No how. She came to you like that. I'm just hoping there will be a positive resolution for all. It would not be right for you to send her back as the contract stipulates you must, without getting your money back.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

MaizieFrosty said:


> I have been with Tammy on this journey, every step of the way. I helped her find Ella because I follow the breeder on FB and saw this drop-dead gorgeous, older brown puppy and knew Tammy was starting to look for a second dog after doing a great job raising Ollie.
> 
> So, I talked with the breeder twice to try to figure out if Ella was the right match for Tammy and family. When I asked the breeder what Ella's personality was like, she said, "She's perfect." She said she was very sweet, cuddly, and well socialized. She said she took her everywhere with her. She never mentioned Ella being barky, "bossy," or downright aggressive. Biting Tammy's son on the face and drawing blood the first day is NOT normal behavior from a toy poodle, even under the stress of transportation, in my opinion. And Ella was picked up and rode in the cabin, not shipped in cargo. The breeder also didn't mention Ella's extreme overbite.
> 
> I am so sad for you, Tammy. You have done everything right with Ella and you have really been let down by the breeder. It is extremely wrong for her to try to insinuate that you are a possible cause of Ella's behavior problems. No way. No how. She came to you like that. I'm just hoping there will be a positive resolution for all. It would not be right for you to send her back as the contract stipulates you must, without getting your money back.


Thank you for your support! 

Yes, being told that we must be the cause of this aggression was quite the shock and slap in the face. Especially since Ollie is pretty much the most amazing dog I’ve ever met and we got him at 7 months also!

Sigh.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I am so sorry, Tammy. I hope the breeder makes this right for you (whatever that means in this situation). And if it continues to be a struggle, please let us know who the breeder is so people looking for poodles can be aware of this unethical breeder.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

tammyw said:


> I have a very qualified friend who thinks rage syndrome fits her profile. And our trainer (with Ollie) and Ollie’s breeder thinks it’s a temperament issue that will just get worse as she ages.


My parents' dog (also a family dog) did not come from a good breeder. We got her from a neighbor who pretty much lied about her history and made up why she was giving her away. From what I recall, we got her at around 14-16 weeks, and she was the sweetest dog initially, but this changed within 2 months or so. She started snapping at us and our older dog. She showed this behavior less with my dad because she was so attached to him, but we couldn't interact with her like other dogs. After working with 2 trainers during puppy classes, we just decided she was who she was and we would keep her, but she spent a lot of her life secluded from family members and other dogs. Her behavior did get worse over time. After going through this experience with Gracie, I personally would not keep a dog with behavior issues like hers in the future. And I should add she was spayed before we got her, so at a very young age...I do not know if this factored into anything.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Dogs4Life said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > I have a very qualified friend who thinks rage syndrome fits her profile. And our trainer (with Ollie) and Ollie’s breeder thinks it’s a temperament issue that will just get worse as she ages.
> ...


Wow, that sounds so similar to what we’ve gone through! I think with someone who has a background in training (like what a vet behaviorist would do) this would be a different situation. I could see someone like that able to work intensely to work on the problem. That is not us! I am a dedicated mom to two kids, Ollie, and our cat. They get every ounce of love I can offer and then some! Ella can be super sweet but a real Jekyll and Hyde. She can be leaning up against me enjoying being rubbed and then immediately start growling and showing teeth! And then watch out! The other day my son was sitting on the son petting our cat. Ella was three feet away and caught his eye and started growling intensely at him. I heard it from the other room and thought what In the world!

I want to give the breeder the benefit of the doubt, and that she will do the right thing but it may not happen. I know that. 

I believed this breeder to have a good and solid reputation but I didn’t get references so that too is my own fault. When we got Ollie, his breeder readily offered about a dozen recent references and they were all glowing. I know we should have gotten our second dog from her, but it came down to timing and being anxious to get number two and allowing her to get settled before our June vacation. Again, my own fault.

Ella really is an adorable little girl who can be so super sweet. So it really is unfortunate the other stuff is there too. And yes, we have noticed it getting progressively worse over the past six weeks. I also want the best for her! She needs someone who can work with her and train her. Her breeder is a single older woman so she would also probably do better in that kind of home. 

I just feel so defeated by the entire thing. I am very grateful we got Ollie first. Otherwise we would likely never want another dog again. 

Thanks for listening!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

pretty awful dilemma. is the breeder a member of akc? i think a complaint may be the best you can do with regard to her. certainly not mentioning the overbite is suspect. with regard to the aggression, it may be necessary to medicate her. a veterinary behaviorist could be helpful in making that determination. if you are near a school of veterinary medicine, they could be interested in the behavioral issues and be more helpful than a private practitioner.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

patk said:


> pretty awful dilemma. is the breeder a member of akc? i think a complaint may be the best you can do with regard to her. certainly not mentioning the overbite is suspect. with regard to the aggression, it may be necessary to medicate her. a veterinary behaviorist could be helpful in making that determination. if you are near a school of veterinary medicine, they could be interested in the behavioral issues and be more helpful than a private practitioner.


She is part of AKC. I will go that route if necessary, but I want to first give her the opportunity to do the right thing.

Yes, the overbite wasn’t mentioned and neither was the gay tail. Nothing I was overly upset about but it just seemed odd to me when we got her. It wasn’t until my husband was picking her up (after we paid) that she told us “she’s bossy” and that we needed to show her we were the boss and not her.

The local vet behaviorist (45 minutes away) charges $190 per hour and an initial assessment is 3.5 hours. I’ve also been told that typical training timing for that is usually 3-4 months, twice a week and still may not fix the problem. I don’t have the time, the money, nor the desire to devote that to her. We just can’t. My husband has a job where he travels often three days a week. No vet school near us either.

Thank you for your input!


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

It's odd that she went from being sweet to aggressive overnight and then continued that pattern. 

Tammy, do you know exactly when Ella had a rabies vaccination? Was it just before you got her? And did she get other vaccinations on the same day?

The reason I ask is a tiny percentage of dogs react with severe and sudden aggressive behavioral changes. 

The other consideration is could she simply furious that she's no longer with her first human family that she lived with for the first seven months of her life, and is acting out so you'll send her back? Poodles are smart, and some may be smart of enough to remember that first family they began with, and can't adjust, sort of like the way some kids in put in foster care do. It would be interesting to see how she reacts to hearing the voice of her breeder in FaceTime, a video, or over the phone, i.e. tail wagging, whining, etc. 

Just some thoughts.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Ella sounds like she might need to be an only dog in a house that doesn't have a lot of commotion (kids, people going in and out). Could be she made that attachment with the breeder like Vita said? We had 2 dogs before we got Gracie, and neither of them attached to one person in the family. Gracie wanted to be with my dad all of the time and cried when she couldn't be. I remember holding her as a puppy, and my dad would be across the room, and she wanted out of my arms so she could sit in his lap. He truly was her person.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Vita said:


> It's odd that she went from being sweet to aggressive overnight and then continued that pattern.
> 
> Tammy, do you know exactly when Ella had a rabies vaccination? Was it just before you got her? And did she get other vaccinations on the same day?
> 
> ...


She had received all vaccinations on schedule before we got her, as we picked her up at 7 months. Rabies was definitely given before we got her but I can’t recall how soon before that. I would have to ask the vet for her records as to whether other shots were given that day.

When she came home with us and was very shy / nervous for a long while, we did have her FaceTime and talk to the breeder but didn’t get any response then. It’s an interesting idea though. Now that I’ve gone through this process with two dogs, I finally understand why it’s best to get the dog at 10-12 weeks. So much bonding, socialization, etc. happens during those critical months. The breeder said she was well socialized and went everywhere with her but when we tried taking her out, we discovered she had never walked on a leash!! She didn’t even want to leave our house! We would take her on outings to places like Home Goods. Oh boy!! She just barked and “talked” loudly and we had to immediately remove her. Those things never got better. Now if we carried her around in her bag, no problem. When I asked the breeder about the leash she said she had only ever been on a lead?

So maybe she does want to go home, who knows? Maybe she is homesick for that life. The quieter simpler life. I know I wouldn’t want to transplanted to a new home no matter how nice the people were!


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

“It's odd that she went from being sweet to aggressive overnight and then continued that pattern. “


Forgot to address this part. The major aggression towards us really started after her surgery. I honestly thought it was just hormones and that maybe she had been near her first cycle. I so badly wanted it to be temporary but when it was clear that wasn’t the case, we really started to be concerned.

From the day we got her, she had VERY strong resource guarding issues. And yes there was aggression surrounding that. We were working to train that out of her (or so we thought). 

I am starting to think she was too old and set in her ways to come to us at seven months. As someone who had never had a dog before a year ago, I am new to all of this. It has been a most incredible education though, and I’m super grateful for that! That’s been a super good thing to come from all of this!


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Dogs4Life said:


> Ella sounds like she might need to be an only dog in a house that doesn't have a lot of commotion (kids, people going in and out). Could be she made that attachment with the breeder like Vita said? We had 2 dogs before we got Gracie, and neither of them attached to one person in the family. Gracie wanted to be with my dad all of the time and cried when she couldn't be. I remember holding her as a puppy, and my dad would be across the room, and she wanted out of my arms so she could sit in his lap. He truly was her person.


I think this is very plausible. And I think it’s very likely that she would probably do really well in the home of a single person with no other pets, where she doesn’t feel so over-protective of her treats, toys, kennel, person. I still believe there’s a perfect home out there for her. But I think it’s going to be a home like what she grew up in.

My kids are mature (16 and 13) but we are a noisy bunch for a dog that’s used to a quiet life. That’s probably why she barks so much and so easily.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

tammyw said:


> ...The breeder said she was well socialized and went everywhere with her but when we tried taking her out, we discovered she had never walked on a leash!! She didn’t even want to leave our house! We would take her on outings to places like Home Goods. Oh boy!! She just barked...


I'm sorry, I actually laughed when I got to the part she had never been walked on a leash. And poor baby, never wanted to leave the house either! SMH.

I won't say the breeder fabricated a rosy history of Ella, but Ella sounds like she was confined to a kennel until you got her, unless she was one of the rare few who was badly affected by the rabies shot.

What's the story the breeder gave you on why she kept her so long anyway? Had she planned to breed or show her, then changed her mind? (Or more cynically, could Ella have been placed with another family before you but had to be returned; if so you'll probably never find out.)

If you haven't already, find out the cost of the equivalent of doggie Prozac. If it's more expensive than monthly pet insurance, get the insurance first, wait for grace period to end, then have the vet prescribe that. I'd try that to see if it reduces her anxiety and aggression.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

If she really is homesick, maybe having the surgery just made it a thousand times worse! After all, we are the people that took her and got the surgeries (she also had to have her dew claws fixed as the breeder hadn’t done it deep enough, she said). All she knew is she went there, was left, and woke up in pain with a cone for two weeks.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Vita said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > ...The breeder said she was well socialized and went everywhere with her but when we tried taking her out, we discovered she had never walked on a leash!! She didn’t even want to leave our house! We would take her on outings to places like Home Goods. Oh boy!! She just barked...
> ...


This is kind of weird, I know, but I don’t think we really discussed why she was there so long. I thought she had said she was too small to show but now I’m not 100% certain about that!!

I do know the breeder said that Ella was very special to her and she was sad to give her up. When Ella struggled so much in public, I asked if she had mostly taken her out in her bag. Breeder said no on a leash, but at another point she told me Ella had never been on a leash, only a lead. So I’m not sure!


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Could be. She may have felt abandoned or kidnapped from her first family, then the pain from the surgeries and fears of more abandonment at the vet. You have your work cut out for you to help her overcome all this. Don't beat up on yourself, you couldn't have possibly known she was so sensitive. Some doggy therapy and medication could help her. If it's too much for you, she might do well placed with a retired person who lives alone and rarely goes out.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

tammyw said:


> This is kind of weird, I know, but I don’t think we really discussed why she was there so long. I thought she had said she was too small to show but now I’m not 100% certain about that!!
> 
> I do know the breeder said that Ella was very special to her and she was sad to give her up. When Ella struggled so much in public, I asked if she had mostly taken her out in her bag. Breeder said no on a leash, but at another point she told me Ella had never been on a leash, only a lead. So I’m not sure!


Ohhh, the plot thickens. To small, maybe not too small after all, leash, lead, yes, no. Not good, not good.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Vita said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > This is kind of weird, I know, but I don’t think we really discussed why she was there so long. I thought she had said she was too small to show but now I’m not 100% certain about that!!
> ...


I might be confusing things and she may have just said it incorrectly too. Trying to give benefit of the doubt, kwim! ☺


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Tammy, I’m sorry you’re having so many problems with your dog.

For one, dogs aren’t capable of planning in order to make events happen. Your dog doesn’t want to go back home. Or if she does, she’s not making plans to go back.

Also, it is not necessary to get a puppy to have a fully well adjusted dog. It is a whole lot easier for beginners though, as dogs sure can be complex.

I read your story and I have two hypothesis. The first one, your dog is taking advantage of your inexperience and trying to rule the place. It happens and it’s not your fault. It takes an experienced owner to read subtle dog language and avoid pitfalls. I’ve personnally had two dogs that were perfect in my house, but showed aggression when they went to their new family. If this is the problem, it’s «*easily*» fixed, as the training is with the humans, not the dog. By changing your attitude, the dog will change also.

My second hypothesis, since it happened right after surgery, is that the dog is in pain. Even if the vet said everything went well, maybe they forgot some gauze or a small instrument inside her ? This happens with humans, so I’m sure it happens with animals as well. Or maybe some other problem that the vet isn’t aware of.

I think a good way to find out, and cheap, is to have your dog is someone else's house for a week or two. Not the breeder, she is not neutral in this matter. Someone who has experience with dogs, and who’s raised many, with different temperaments, including some more difficult ones. And see if she has the same behavior. If she’s still aggressive with some with a lot of experience, then she must be in pain.

I hope you find a way. I really have a feeling you’re going to get through this.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Dechi said:


> Tammy, I’m sorry you’re having so many problems with your dog.
> 
> For one, dogs aren’t capable of planning in order to make events happen. Your dog doesn’t want to go back home. Or if she does, she’s not making plans to go back.
> 
> ...


She’s with the local breeder now (who is friends with a friend of our breeder). She just sent an update. Ella stays in the puppy playpen and has apparently been very good and very quiet (like pretty much zero barking or noise and only one growl at one of her dogs that got too close). She’s seeing a friend who does training tomorrow and the vet Friday.

Re aggression towards us. What do you think we could have done personally (or not done) for her to act this way? 

Re pain, we thought of that but when she’s in a good mood we can handle her all over, no issues. In fact, her aggression really comes out when she sits or lies down either just to “rest” or is getting close to sleeping.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

tammyw said:


> She’s with the local breeder now (who is friends with a friend of our breeder). She just sent an update. Ella stays in the puppy playpen and has apparently been very good and very quiet (like pretty much zero barking or noise and only one growl at one of her dogs that got too close). She’s seeing a friend who does training tomorrow and the vet Friday.
> 
> Re aggression towards us. What do you think we could have done personally (or not done) for her to act this way?
> 
> Re pain, we thought of that but when she’s in a good mood we can handle her all over, no issues. In fact, her aggression really comes out when she sits or lies down either just to “rest” or is getting close to sleeping.


It’s hard to say what you’re doing without seeing it live. It’s not necessary something obvious. It might be that you let her get away with not listening to you and she’s learned she can do what she wants, or she might not like specific things and you have ignored her signals (unknowingly). 

A well adjusted dog will give warnings before biting. There will be body signs at first to show discomfort. Then, if the body signs are ignored, there will be growling. Then, if growling doesn’t work, the dog will have no choice but to bite. Or, if things happen very fast, the biting will come right away (see my story at the end).

An experienced dog person will read the first stage of discomfort, the body language, and act accordingly to make the dog feel at ease. And it won’t ever escalate.

Young kids have no clue as to how to be around a dog. It has to be taught. Kids have a tendency to invade a dog’s space and be in their face. Hugging them, holding them tight, squeezing them. We see those movies and videos where kids do that to dogs and we think it’s okay. It’s not. Many dogs, if not most, do not like hugging, or even being touched on the head. They have to be acclimated to it. Especially small dogs, who are in my opinion the most likely to bite kids, because they are very aware of their size and fear for themselves.

So you see it could be so many things. I’m glad she’s with experienced people right now and I think you should get answers soon. Make sure she is evaluated around kids.

Once I had a mini poodle who was very good with my kids. My kids had been around dogs all their life and I had taught them how to behave. She was still young, maybe 6-7 months, like yours. My young niece came over for a week-end (I think she was 7). She was a very sweet, well behaved little girl, but she had no dog manners. Not her fault, she never had a dog.

So I’m sitting on the couch with my mini poodle on my lap, carefully monitoring the interaction between the two because I know there could ne trouble. Well, it happened so fast I couldn't do anything. My niece made a very sudden move and came 1 inch in front of the dogs face, in a fraction of a second. My dog had an immediate reaction and snapped. Fortunately she barely touched her, but it could have been so much worse.

Even though I knew it could happen, I couldn’t prevent it. What I should have done is explain to my niece what to do and not to do with a dog. With any dog. I kind of remember I did, but obviously not well enough. Since then I have always been more careful with kids and dogs.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm so late to this thread. I'm sorry...was having some medical problems. So...is she gone for good? I'm glad if she has a good home that works for her. I read this last night but needed to wait until today to respond. I was going to say that if I had had a dog bite one of my children, that dog would have been gone before sundown that day if I had to have it put down or if some adult wanted to take her on. I don't think the dog should be given to anyone with this kind of temperament. I don't care what anyone was doing. A dog with a good, stable temperament can tolerate a lot. Or can walk away. This is not a good breeder imo. I hope you can get your money back but if not, move on the best you can. I have worked with aggressive dogs and mostly the ones who were very receptive to rehabilitation were the ones who were resource guarding. This dog has some screws loose I'm thinking. It really doesn't matter what the cause is. Even inexperienced dog owner's dogs, if they have a stable temperament don't do that. I wouldn't blame you for anything that you did short of attacking the dog and it had to defend itself. And I don't believe that for one minute, of course. Dogs that have a low threshold for something they don't like but isn't hurting them _badly_ imo, have a weak temperament. Period. No excuses. 

We can speculate till the cows come home as to the reason.... someone moved to quickly, made too much noise, rabies vaccine, pain, could be a brain tumor. (that one I'd forgive) But no matter what, even with the best training and counter conditioning, I could _never _trust Ella around children or anyone...That she's small makes it a little easier on adults as far as damage. But not children. (physical and emotional) A child attacked by a dog repeatedly especially may never get over it and may miss out on enjoying dogs in the future. That she attacked when you were sleeping? So not normal even for most aggression cases. 

As far as the theory of being homesick or mad at her change of locations or being taken away...no. Sorry, but I do not agree with that degree of anthropomorphism. Dogs just don't move forward and backward through time like that...not in a thought-out, logical, cognitive way. They live in the now for the most part...yes, we see that they have memories. Of course they do. But the whole complexity of cognition for re-hashing all the events that took place as has been described here...no. I do not believe that is an ability that dogs have. 

Anyhow, the bottom line for me is I would not give the dog to someone else unless they signed something acknowledging that they're aware of the dog's aggressive tendencies and accept full responsibility. Or ask a lawyer if that's even enough. (if the breeder won't take her back) And I would not keep a dog for one day if it bit a child. If it were anything bigger than a toy breed, it would be gone immediately. So if I'm understanding this right...that she is now with someone else, is this is permanent? And I know it must be very hard and an emotional upheaval for you. But it would be for the best and you'll be able to move ahead soon. I'm very sorry Tammy. 

I have to mention that when I got my dogs, I did get oodles of references and my breeder's biggest claim to fame is his dogs' temperaments. They're beautiful too. But temperament is something dogs are born with and behavior modification is possible with many things, even certain aggression problems to a degree. But there are times where it's just not worth the risk. I hope your breeder will do the right thing by you but if not, it's probably not worth the stress of trying to do anything legally. But you could make her name mud on FB or somewhere by telling your story. Good luck. (((hugs))) I'm very sorry.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled - thank you for your message and insight. I’m just going into an appt so I’ll respond later, but the local breeder was just taking her for a few days as a favor to Ella’s breeder, so no, not permanent.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

I uploaded a couple videos to show a taste of what we are dealing with. These feel somewhat artificial because we would be doing regular things, she would start being aggressive, and then I would pause everything to record (as the breeder wanted videos). This was the only way other than just constantly recording. She wasn’t sleeping in the one - she had JUST walked over and lied down.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YdgrATcopO0&feature=youtu.be

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=hZefzzofbbY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6GmCn31p2Ns&feature=youtu.be


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

tammyw said:


> The other day my son was sitting on the son petting our cat. Ella was three feet away and caught his eye and started growling intensely at him. I heard it from the other room and thought what In the world!


Not normal behavior!



tammyw said:


> I finally understand why it’s best to get the dog at 10-12 weeks. So much bonding, socialization, etc. happens during those critical months.


I completely disagree about bonding--I have gotten dogs at all ages from 2 mos. to 9 years old and there is ZERO difference in the bond. Socialization is a different story, for sure, though. That window up to 16 weeks old is everything. If the previous owner doesn't do a good job socializing the dog to other people of all ages (babies and children are so important!), genders, ethnicities, disabilities, hats, etc., other household pets, transportation, different locations, etc. etc., the dog has been failed. 



tammyw said:


> My kids are mature (16 and 13) but we are a noisy bunch for a dog that’s used to a quiet life. That’s probably why she barks so much and so easily.


A single woman owner is the type of home the breeder should have looked for, in my opinion. 



Poodlebeguiled said:


> I was going to say that if I had had a dog bite one of my children, that dog would have been gone before sundown that day if I had to have it put down or if some adult wanted to take her on. I don't care what anyone was doing. A dog with a good, stable temperament can tolerate a lot. Or can walk away. I hope you can get your money back...


Totally agree with this.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

MaizieFrosty said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > The other day my son was sitting on the son petting our cat. Ella was three feet away and caught his eye and started growling intensely at him. I heard it from the other room and thought what In the world!
> ...


No, you’re right on the bonding. I shouldn’t have included that. We bonded well with Ollie at seven months and even with Ella, despite the other issues!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

she looks hand shy and sounds fear aggressive. if her breeder never had an inkling of that, then she never exposed her to anyone but herself. which i find hard to believe if she is actually a breeder. never heard of a breeder who does not want to present/sell her dogs. i hope she takes ella back and returns your money. but anyone blaming you for the behavior of a 7 month old dog, well...


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

patk said:


> she looks hand shy and sounds fear aggressive. if her breeder never had an inkling of that, then she never exposed her to anyone but herself. which i find hard to believe if she is actually a breeder. never heard of a breeder who does not want to present/sell her dogs. i hope she takes ella back and returns your money. but anyone blaming you for the behavior of a 7 month old dog, well...


And yet 70% of the time she is fine. See this video. She was great for a good amount of time and then turned on me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=-n9_TK2pneE


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I’m not a trainer or behaviorist but this dog needs to be put in her place big time! No dog would growl at me or my family that way. 

She’s the boss and she knows it. After seeing this I also think she’s not a dog for your family and should be rehomed. Way too risky for a family with young kids.

In the right home, she will most probably completely change. I’m really not saying it’s your fault. Just that this dog needs a different energy and discipline. I think it’s too much for you to take on.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Dechi said:


> I’m not a trainer or behaviorist but this dog needs to be put in her place big time!
> 
> She’s the boss and she knows it. After seeing this I also think she’s not a dog for your family and should be rehomed. Way too risky for a family with young kids.
> 
> In the right home, she will most probably completely change. I’m really not saying it’s your fault. Just that this dog needs a different energy and discipline. I think it’s too much for you to take on.


Our kids aren’t super young - 16 and 13.

I mean we really don’t think we were letting her be the boss. But once we got bit a number of times, we started becoming nervous and backed off, kwim?

We trained her, she is smart, but I’m wondering what we could have done better with not letting her be the boss?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I just watched your videos. If you're not going to have her pts then the first thing I see that's wrong with the picture is she is very clearly not liking the groping with the hands. Stop doing that. There is the possibility of conditioning the dog to being okay with that but not with that kind of antagonizing that's going on. I know it's not intentional but you can see that's bothering her and triggering this. Don't reach out with hands or arms at all. If she walks over near you or someone else, open your hand that has a piece of chicken in it. And don't do another thing. Don't grope, reach out at all. Show her that hands are good things and they don't pester her but they do have fabulous treats or whatever else she may like. Everyone who interacts with her must keep their hands/arms to themselves, close to their sides. For now. Anything else she doesn't like, is afraid of, wasn't socialized to, whatever...needs to go from a bad thing to a good thing. So think what you can do to make whatever it is that's a trigger many, many times milder and paired with something very wonderful from her viewpoint. Don't put too much pressure on her all at once. Practice a little something a couple minutes several times a day...use whatever voice makes her happiest. Watch her for signs of being happy or uncomfortable. Look up online dogs body language. Learn what to watch for. You can google *Turid Rugaas Calming signals* for some insight as well. 

Usually, what I've found is that most dogs with an impoverished socialization is that they're fearful more than aggressive. They'll sometimes snap or growl because they're afraid but to follow through with an attack is not too common on account of under socialization or a lack of. But if the dog was pushed too far too much...or if the dog has a poor temperament and low threshold, that could be a game changer. 

One caution: If you re-home this dog and she bites someone, especially a small child, you quite possibly could be held liable as well as the new owners if a neighbor child or someone visiting gets bitten. If you have someone in your house that brings a small child, you'll have to prevent a bite. And in fact, it would be in Ella's best interest to be protected and put away when visitors come. She is stressed out big time and needs a quiet, safe place to go at her will.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

How does someone even go about stopping this kind of behavior? I called Gracie out on her behavior, and all she would do is just walk away and leave the room. It never changed her behavior. We never "let her" act this way. She was small, too- under 10 pounds, but it didn't matter. The only techniques I can picture right now are from the Dog Whisperer, and I know many are not a fan of his. I can't see Ella being in anyone's home right now, other than a trainer.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

You don't have to use bossy treatment. In fact, a sensitive dog that is showing this behavior should not be treated with harshness if that's what is meant by being the boss. I might be misunderstanding that. Good training using positive reinforcement type methods, showing her what behavior gets her what she wants and what behavior doesn't work to get her what she wants. This does not have to include punishment of any kind and I don't recommend it with a defensive biter, which is what it looks like to me in the videos.

If you're not going to put her down or re-home her, I highly recommend getting a behaviorist to evaluate her, your family dynamics with her and get some help. Maybe it's not her temperament or all on account of temperament, but some circumstances that happened to her before you got her, perhaps some inadvertent treatment that pushed her too far. Maybe it's not all on account of temperament...not when I see what I know is _inadvertent_ but it is antagonistic from the dog's point of view. I hate to be such a b****h but she may not have had enough handling as a puppy and this is all freaking her out. I don't think you or your family is responsible when she bit the first day she was with you. But some things may have increased this behavior. Who knows? What did this breeder do with her the first 7 months of her life? You didn't know, did you if she was in another home before you? Maybe she was badly mistreated or ignored and not handled enough. I'm so sorry. I hope you can get a behaviorist.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

There is only one thing you could have tried, The nothing in life is free training method. I use this with my dogs everything is earned not a given.

http://www.sccpets.com/PFL/NothingInLifeIsFree.pdf

That said I know what it is to have an unbalanced dog, My pom/chi mix Gracie is inappropriately aggressive and extremely possessive, she's 14 now I inherited her from my mother 4 years ago, This method coupled with medication helped a lot. Gracie has bitten people and all my dogs well not Lenny. There are no easy answers.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I just now saw your last video with her licking your hand in a rather frantic way. I don't know that that is showing any affection, but seems more nervous. But it sure seems odd that in the other videos she is not liking those hands. This time though, she's tolerating your hands. But your hand is not reaching out. It's already right there. 

I would agree with nothing in life is free...at least most things. No more bed privileges. If you want to continue with furniture privileges, teach her to ask first. She sits, waits and quickly (don't make her wait too long at first) invite her up. Be friendly but not too excitable. Then "off" and that will earn a small treat. Up...no treat. Off...treat. Reward her for staying on her own bed on the floor or crate if she's crate trained. 

What kinds of obedience skills has she learned? Ask for something from her before she gets to go outside, have dinner, which can be dispensed as rewards...some of it anyhow. Only give her attention when she's behaving how you like. Give her plenty of exercise and fun outside. Teach her to retrieve and bring you something, for which you'll trade her for a really good treat. "Give" to your hand, "drop" the item on the ground. Make it fun. Maybe some more involvement, more training. That right there shows that you're the leader and in charge. Obedience skills, tricks, whatever is a good help in improving behavior usually...in a general way. Just over all it tends to help.

Growling is a communication. Don't punish the growl. You don't want a dog not to growl when it's trying to tell you something very important. Sometimes dogs will learn not to growl if they're punished, then they just bite with no telling you what's wrong. She may have tried to tell people that she didn't like something (maybe people before you) and they didn't pay attention. If a dog doesn't like something, forcing them isn't going to make them like it better. There are ways to show the dog that what they don't like can be okay. But that has to be shown in a way they understand.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

tammyw said:


> And yet 70% of the time she is fine. See this video. She was great for a good amount of time and then turned on me.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=-n9_TK2pneE





it's a choice whether to cling to that experience or deal with what is going on now - your family is getting bitten and you are anxiety ridden. not a good situation for any of you, very possibly including the dog, who may need a totally different environment to survive. very tough choices involved. i feel your pain.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I just now saw your last video with her licking your hand in a rather frantic way. I don't know that that is showing any affection, but seems more nervous. But it sure seems odd that in the other videos she is not liking those hands. This time though, she's tolerating your hands. But your hand is not reaching out. It's already right there.
> 
> I would agree with nothing in life is free...at least most things. No more bed privileges. If you want to continue with furniture privileges, teach her to ask first. She sits, waits and quickly (don't make her wait too long at first) invite her up. Be friendly but not too excitable. Then "off" and that will earn a small treat. Up...no treat. Off...treat. Reward her for staying on her own bed on the floor or crate if she's crate trained.
> 
> ...


She has, from day one, been a frantic licker. She will lick the sofa or outside of her kennel until it is sopping wet. Same with us.

We taught her sit, down, touch (come), to ring potty bells, drop, leave it / take it.

She has never been typical in her affection, like Ollie. She only started tolerating being on our knee recently. She would “talk” loudly until you put her down. Her preference was always in her kennel (with lid down) or backed into a corner. 

She will literally NOT BUDGE when she doesn’t want to walk on leash. It took us many months of working at it to get her to go a block and back.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I don’t think she looks comfortable even when she is licking you. This frantic licking is probably out of anxiety. I think she is a very nervous/anxious dog and might be growling and biting out of anxiety.

I have a toy with an anxiety disorder and he will bite out of fear, but he’s a totally different dog than yours.

You sure have a difficult dog on your hands. As Twyla said, medication might be necessary once the assessment is done. I had my dog evaluated by a behaviorist vet. He is on medication for life. Too severe of a case.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Dechi said:


> I don’t think she looks comfortable even when she is licking you. This frantic licking is probably out of anxiety. I think she is a very nervous/anxious dog and might be growling and biting out of anxiety.
> 
> I have a toy with an anxiety disorder and he will bite out of fear, but he’s a totally different dog than yours.
> 
> You sure have a difficult dog on your hands. As Twyla said, medication might be necessary once the assessment is done. I had my dog evaluated by a behaviorist vet. He is on medication for life. Too severe of a case.


Now this all makes sense. An anxious/sensitive/high strung dog that was driven practically insane being forced to wear a cone for two weeks which then caused the fear-based aggression.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

tammyw said:


> Now this all makes sense. An anxious/sensitive/high strung dog that was driven practically insane being forced to wear a cone for two weeks which then caused the fear-based aggression.


Ohhh, yeah ! This might be a possibility ! Having the cone might have triggered bad anxiety ! Would the vet assess her and give her medication to calm her down ? It’s important that medication be used with training, or it won’t make as big a difference.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Well, yes...that frantic licking is her attempt to sooth herself. She's just full of anxiety. I don't know what you're going to do. I would be very concerned if she ever comes into contact with a small child. I hope you do something to ease your own anxiety because not only is it bad for you, it probably feeds her and then in turn, she feeds you that anxiety....a vicious cycle. Is it out of the realms for you to send her back to the breeder? (even if she doesn't refund you) Gosh, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. If you keep her, I agree with asking the vet about meds plus get some certified behaviorist to help you. It sure is expensive, isn't it?

Oh, and that's awesome you've trained her to do some of those things. Good goin'!:thumb:


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Well, yes...that frantic licking is her attempt to sooth herself. She's just full of anxiety. I don't know what you're going to do. I would be very concerned if she ever comes into contact with a small child. I hope you do something to ease your own anxiety because not only is it bad for you, it probably feeds her and then in turn, she feeds you that anxiety....a vicious cycle. Is it out of the realms for you to send her back to the breeder? (even if she doesn't refund you) Gosh, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. If you keep her, I agree with asking the vet about meds plus get some certified behaviorist to help you. It sure is expensive, isn't it?
> 
> Oh, and that's awesome you've trained her to do some of those things. Good goin'!


Yes, I’m sure my anxiety over this surely isn’t helping. 

She’s very smart and quick to train so that’s a huge benefit.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I hadn’t read you also had anxiety. I do too. And my dog makes me anxious, which in turns makes me make him more anxious... Anxious dogs are not a good fit with anxious people.

My dog is going nowhere now, he is safe with me. But I’m sure he would have made more progress with someone who isn’t anxious.

Your situation is very hard. I hope you find a way.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Have any of you heard of secondary fear periods? The local breeder said she thinks this could be it. Said Ella is becoming more and more comfortable and seeming more relaxed st her house, letting her pet, etc.


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## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

A fear period does not explain how a 'perfect' dog who went with the breeder everywhere is displaying anxiety licking, let alone a whole host of terrible behaviors. The breeder (and friend) seems to be grasping at anything that might make it seem like she sold you a wonderful dog and you did something wrong. For me, the bottom line would be that she falsely advertised and did not pair this dog with the correct family. I would not be satisfied until she refunded me and took the dog back. 

You have been dealing with the breeder from the start and it has been at least 3 months. The breeder has had plenty of time to do the right thing. I personally would doubt the breeders friend's experience. At the very least, I would be suspect that Ella is 'doing better' because she has been in the puppy pen and not interacting with people. (plus, even if this was related to a fear period, it takes training to get over the fear. It does not suddenly change because of living somewhere new.) I would be letting the breeder know you are done trying to figure out how to live with an anxious, fear ridding dog who has *bit your child multiple times*, and want to know how to go about sending the dog back and getting your money back. She does anything but start plans moving in that direction, I would start the AKC route PP mentioned before.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Spunky said:


> A fear period does not explain how a 'perfect' dog who went with the breeder everywhere is displaying anxiety licking, let alone a whole host of terrible behaviors. The breeder (and friend) seems to be grasping at anything that might make it seem like she sold you a wonderful dog and you did something wrong. For me, the bottom line would be that she falsely advertised and did not pair this dog with the correct family. I would not be satisfied until she refunded me and took the dog back.
> 
> You have been dealing with the breeder from the start and it has been at least 3 months. The breeder has had plenty of time to do the right thing. I personally would doubt the breeders friend's experience. At the very least, I would be suspect that Ella is 'doing better' because she has been in the puppy pen and not interacting with people. (plus, even if this was related to a fear period, it takes training to get over the fear. It does not suddenly change because of living somewhere new.) I would be letting the breeder know you are done trying to figure out how to live with an anxious, fear ridding dog who has *bit your child multiple times*, and want to know how to go about sending the dog back and getting your money back. She does anything but start plans moving in that direction, I would start the AKC route PP mentioned before.


You make excellent points. And you are right. Keeping her would be a lot of work and stress due to the training and walking on eggshells we would need to do.

As a contrast, Ollie, our silver, lies with me everywhere, sits on me, if he’s sleeping and I pet him he rolls onto back for belly scratch. He is always on the middle of us. So calm and easy going. So perfect for US!!!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

It sounds like you're coming to the conclusion that Ella will be better off in another home. She'll likely feel that change, so I hope you and the breeder can get something worked out quickly. Your family deserves peace and Ella deserves the time and attention it will take to help her be her best self.

If I have your breeder identified correctly, her FB page indicates she had/still had Ella at 4 months but no indication of why. On another breeder list website, she identifies herself as an AKC Breeder of Merit, which requires certain criteria to be met. She has a reputation and poodles to protect so I hope she'll do right by you all, and Ella. 

I really hope for the best outcome for all of you.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

I spoke with the local breeder for a long time last night. She now agrees that the problem is Ella isn’t a good fit for our family. Her vet examined her and deemed her to be in good health and all looks good, but that she is just a high strung dog. There was another large dog in the next room while she was there and she got very upset with lots of barking, yet she was still willing to take treats in the middle! That’s Ella for sure. She’s very treat and food motivated.

We are going to pick her up today and I think her breeder will do the right thing honestly. It’s been a rough road but I truly think that Ella could thrive in the right hands. To me, that’s a retired person or couple preferably where she can be an only. And someone who knows a lot more about dogs than we do. We LOVE her and it breaks my heart not to keep her. Sure we could try training but if our house is just too loud and chaotic for her then we are doing her a disservice. But it really will break my heart.

She mentioned that in her experience, it’s more common for toys to be high strung. And that Ella high strung temperament is more common than Ollie’s quiet demeanor. Would you say that’s true?

I also wanted to clarify about the videos because I don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea that we were just purposely messing with her and upsetting her. In those cases, we kind of had to, since Ella’s breeder wanted video. Without recording constantly it was difficult. So when she started being aggressive, i would then grab my phone to record and since we knew she was agitated we knew we could artificially re-enact her aggression by putting hands towards her. So while we do pet her when she’s calm and comfortable, when she starts growling at us or showing early signs, we DO back off. Hope that clarifies things!


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I am truly sorry about what is happening to you, your family and Ella, I disagree about more toys being high strung than not, I have had 6 toys only my first toy Baby was high strung, after Baby I made it point in getting easy keepers. My current trio of toys are really laid back.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

twyla said:


> I am truly sorry about what is happening to you, your family and Ella, I disagree about more toys being high strung than not, I have had 6 toys only my first toy Baby was high strung, after Baby I made it point in getting easy keepers. My current trio of toys are really laid back.


That’s good to hear! How did you ensure getting laid back pups?

I know Ollie’s breeder believes a lot about temperament is breeding. Before we got him, I spoke to at least a dozen of her clients and they all raved about their dog’s temperament. She has also told me that if we want another pup from her, she will ensure to hand pick the sweetest boy possible (I don’t care about color) and then promise if we aren’t happy she will take him back. They are in Texas. 

The local breeder said she always recommends getting a dog locally to prevent the situation we are dealing with now. But I wasn’t crazy about my local options and I know Ollie and his breeder so I think that is safe, especially because she knows exactly what we’ve been dealing with.

I still feel very sad. We have had Ella for four months and have become so attached. We adore her. But we also have to look at what is best for HER. It’s just so hard!


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

This must have been very difficult. It sounds like you are doing the right thing by letting her go, as hard as I am sure it was to come to that decision. I was impressed by your thoughtfulness in analyzing all aspects of the situation, and willingness to go the extra mile with her.

She’s young, cute, and has support of a breeder network who can help place her in a home that suits her personality. Then you and your family can heal from the stress this must have caused. 

Please let us know how it is going. I’ve been following your thread and have felt for your pain, and also the pain of a young dog who is clearly not thriving emotionally. Part of me wanted to say “I’ll take her and work with her” as I have rehabbed other dogs with fear aggression. But with four dogs now and involvement in dog sports, there just isn’t room in my life for that type of thing anymore. 

But that person is out there and I hope your breeder can facilitate a quick transition for Ella.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Volhard's testing, even if your breeder don't do it it gives you an idea what behaviors you are looking at and what those behaviors mean.
https://www.volhard.com/pages/pat.php

I met all my puppies, I now know I don't want. I spent at least a half an hour getting to know them. 

Mind you Beatrice came from a BYB confident, aloof, ending up with bad knees, Pia was a re-home at 5 months shy, a bit skittish and a poop eater, Leonard was a show poodle prospect but grew a little tall, his breeder warned me he was needy but that I knew I could work with that, he is confident friendly and super sweet. My current poodles came to me at ages 17 to 20 weeks.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Carolinek said:


> This must have been very difficult. It sounds like you are doing the right thing by letting her go, as hard as I am sure it was to come to that decision. I was impressed by your thoughtfulness in analyzing all aspects of the situation, and willingness to go the extra mile with her.
> 
> She’s young, cute, and has support of a breeder network who can help place her in a home that suits her personality. Then you and your family can heal from the stress this must have caused.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the kind words. They help! Yes, it is gut wrenching. We truly love her so much! Selfishly, I want to say “let’s try” but I know the longer we keep her the harder it gets. And honestly, it’s this conversation that helped me see that she has felt uncomfortable since the beginning. Could that just be a result of a high strung temperament (the vet’s description)? Perhaps. But perhaps our home is just too loud and busy for her. Our teens are mature and not overly crazy but our home also isn’t like a retired person’s home. And she clearly feels extreme resource guarding and that doesn’t help with another dog who looks at her treats or toys she has.

And then there is the fact that my son is becoming fearful of Ella. Will that impact his feeling of dogs? When I was a kid, I got bit in the butt when I was playing outside with friends. I was afraid of dogs for a very long time because of that, so I don’t want my son to feel fear because of this situation.

It’s been agonizing on all of us. We have all cried. It hasn’t been fun. But I truly am trying to figure out what’s best for all and especially Ella. It’s not her fault, and I want to make sure she has a great life. 

I have a friend who offered to take her for a month to try and extensively train and rehabilitate and boy am I tempted, but if that didn’t work, then what? There are just so many factors that make this awful. ?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh gosh Tammy. I'm sorry you're going through this difficulty but I agree with everyone else that this is the right thing. It would be a tremendous undertaking for you when you have children, another dog to take care of and like everyone said, best for her to be in a different place where things don't rile her up. She has something off about her and as sweet as she is, well...you're doing the right thing. And I can't imagine what you're going through. It's nothing you did. Your other dog is fine. It's something with her temperament. 

I don't see that toys are more high strung. It's an individual thing I think. Mine are pretty laid back. Certain little quirks they have. But they're not nervous and they are gentle always with everyone...never reacted with aggression for any reason toward humans. They've always been completely tolerant of any grooming tasks, regardless of how unpleasant something might be or anything a vet had to do with them. I've never had a dog that wasn't absolutely tolerant. 

I wish you all the best if and when you get a new pup. I did love having my breeder close by...so helpful.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

We just picked Ella up and are on our way home with her. I’ve never seen her so excited in my life. She almost had a heart attack when she saw us. She could not settle down! She was very happy we were there. It brought tears to my husband’s eyes. It will be interesting to see how she is at home.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I'm sorry for all your going through with your little one. I hope you find what works for your family. Sometimes we must make difficult decisions other times we learn to live with difficulty. You will know and I'd say we all support you in whatever your final decision is.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I can’t wait to see how she is at home now. The fact that you’ve reflected on this so much might change the energy.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Dechi said:


> I can’t wait to see how she is at home now. The fact that you’ve reflected on this so much might change the energy.


So far she has been great, but of course it’s just been a few hours. Will give it a few days to settle out and then reassess. This has been a rollercoaster, for sure!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

tammyw said:


> So far she has been great, but of course it’s just been a few hours. Will give it a few days to settle out and then reassess. This has been a rollercoaster, for sure!


If you think you might consider keeping her after all, or even only til you can make whatever arrangements are needed, ask your vet about getting her on the Fluoxetine/Prozac for everyone's sake. At first I thought she might be too young, but apparently it is given to puppies as young as 6 months. It's not expensive, online you can get 100 for around $10, so even from the vet it shouldn't be too expensive. It made such a difference for our Noel. It usually takes a few weeks to take effect, but it can start working sooner. It did with our girl. 

With everyone less stressed, who knows? Wishing a happy outcome for you all.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Rose n Poos said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > So far she has been great, but of course it’s just been a few hours. Will give it a few days to settle out and then reassess. This has been a rollercoaster, for sure!
> ...


Do you use it daily? What were the results? What made you try it in the first place? 

She has so active and SO happy to be home. She’s also been drinking tons of water (probably because the dog’s keep chasing each other so much!) I’m still cautious as I don’t have a lot of confidence that the aggression is gone but I’m not stressed about it anymore at least and I feel confident that it will somehow all work out, even if that means she needs a new home. I think it is because I feel confident we have researched every possible idea and that no matter what, it’s been well thought out.

I so appreciate being able to talk it all out here. It’s helped me work through it all and more importantly, opened my eyes to certain things I might not have seen before. This is such a valuable forum and once again, I’m grateful to be a part of such a great community and support system. So thank you!


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

My pom/chi mix Gracie is on the max dose of Fluoxetine/Prozac and also takes Trazodone. Back story I was unable to re-home 10 year old Gracie after my mom died, she was my mom's dog, no rescue I contacted wanted her because of her history of biting people she had bitten 5 people and her aggression towards my dogs. Gracie suffers from anxiety and inappropriate aggression and has been so since she was a puppy.
The medication coupled with training took awhile, years. Honestly during the whole process euthanasia was an option. 
I am not saying this would be the case with with Ella but there is no magic pill that will fix issues like this immediately, there is no guarantee that just an option that can work. I took me three years to get Gracie to where she is today a much happier dog.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

So she’s already shown some light aggression. Which I knew would happen once she was back in our setting. It’s under the usual circumstances. Resource guarding a bully stick. Getting a little bit tired on the bed. In fact she was getting pretty aggressive towards Ollie when he just wanted to sleep. 

I think my husband just wanted to see whether things would go right back to where they were. Honestly, with training and medication, she might be fine, right? But if not? That’s a big if. And in the meantime, what if she bites someone outside our family? Our pet sitter is staying at our house for six days while we go on vacation this month. 

The local breeder suggested we put her in a puppy playpen and do what I would call a modified Nothing In Life Is Free. Sure she was good (quiet) in the playpen at her house but I was there and now understand why even more! Strange house and person (for her) plus two big standards, two large miniatures plus a twelve week old miniature. 

The vet who examined her wrote notes about her being barky and just needing training. Hmmm. She was really barky, apparently, because there was a big dog next door making some really loud and crazy noises. I’ve read many many things about excessive barking and it seems to be one of those things a toy poodle either IS or ISN’T, and is very hard to train. We had been working pretty hard on counter conditioning her to noises. That was working a bit, but on the other hand, last night when I quietly got up to go to the bathroom around 10:30pm, barking like a banshee. Like crazy excessive. 

So I think we’ve already got our answer, again, and yet it still feels BAD. Like I’m being a quitter. We adore her! Love her so much! But I also really worry about the consequences of us ignoring the recommendations to give her back to the breeder. The what if she bites a small child? The what if she just gets worse with age? The what if she starts affecting my amazing Ollie’s personality?

I thought this would be easy because we had worked it all out while she was away from the house for a week but once she came back, she had our hearts again. But then I come back to knowing that we have to do what’s best for ALL. ???


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

You should do what you feel is best for your family first, then her. Just don’t wait, do it fast if you need to rehome, as the more you wait, the more difficult it will be for her.

I have had to rehome dogs (for different reasons, but still) and when you are confident you chose the best option for them, and the best home, it makes it so much easier.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Dechi said:


> You should do what you feel is best for your family first, then her. Just don’t wait, do it fast if you need to rehome, as the more you wait, the more difficult it will be for her.
> 
> I have had to rehome dogs (for different reasons, but still) and when you are confident you chose the best option for them, and the best home, it makes it so much easier.


We plan on making final decision and speaking to breeder tomorrow morning. My husband just wanted the weekend to observe after her week away.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I was away when this discussion started and then have been busy since I got home. I just looked through the entire discussion about tammyw's situation. I have to say I would never have kept a dog in my home if it had been a child on the face for even another hour after that happened. For those familiar with Ian Dunbar's bite scale pathology you know a dog that has broken skin is a dangerous dog and the behavior is likely to get worse not better. Here is a link to Ian's bite scale from the APDT website. https://apdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/ian-dunbar-dog-bite-scale.pdf



Ella sounds like she is a level 3 tending towards level four biter. If she is not to be euthanized (which is what I would tend towards, since clearly she is in psychological distress based on the severity of her anxiety as evidenced by her obsessive licking) she needs to be the only dog in a home with a very experienced owner/trainer. In the meantime no contact with children whatsoever.


I am sorry this is such an awful situation and while I know I am probably sounding very very harsh about this I really think this is a dangerous dog and something has to be done yesterday not down the road. she should not be allowed more chances to hurt anyone. I know your heart hurts about this.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> I was away when this discussion started and then have been busy since I got home. I just looked through the entire discussion about tammyw's situation. I have to say I would never have kept a dog in my home if it had been a child on the face for even another hour after that happened. For those familiar with Ian Dunbar's bite scale pathology you know a dog that has broken skin is a dangerous dog and the behavior is likely to get worse not better. Here is a link to Ian's bite scale from the APDT website. https://apdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/ian-dunbar-dog-bite-scale.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So she only broke skin that first day in our home. I immediately freaked out and called the breeder and she blamed my son for getting into her face when she had a treat and especially being new and nervous. I was actually super upset as it punctured his bottom lip and bled a good deal. But then she made it our fault and I accepted that because yes he shouldn’t have done that (he was just excited and wanted to see her — he’s a mature 13 year old but he had also been on the trip to pick her up so she knew him more than the rest of us). The breeder said she was being protective of her treat and with her extreme resource guarding I know that to be true.

The rest of the biting and attacks have never broken skin and not even THAT hard, but she has lunges at my son’s face a couple times and bit his nose (he went in close to her and didn’t realize she was in agitated state). It sounds like I’m making excuses for her and I promise I’m not. Just trying to clearly outline the situation. 

On the other hand, Ollie would never bite. I lovingly lie side by side on the bed, and stroke his body while gazing in his eyes. He wants to protect his treats (bully stick for example) but he would never bite us to do so. Instead he would maybe growl a bit and move away.

Ollie’s breeder just had pups. We could get one of those in twelve weeks. I know that her dogs have the best temperament both because of Ollie and because of the many people I’ve spoken with about her dogs. She also promised she would handpick the most gentle and least barky dog (though hers just aren’t barky) and promised we can return him if we aren’t 100% satisfied.

I know what the answer is. And I think my husband will come to that realization too. It’s just four months of getting attached has taken its toll on us. ?


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Video I just took. This is how she plays by herself. He touched her to show she was okay with it (he had just been petting).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=MVbMF3bCkZQ


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> On the other hand, Ollie would never bite. I lovingly lie side by side on the bed, and stroke his body while gazing in his eyes. He wants to protect his treats (bully stick for example) but he would never bite us to do so. *Instead he would maybe growl a bit and move away.*


Moving onto Ollie...(because to me, putting Ella down or giving her back to the breeder would be a non-negotiable and certain decision for me) That Ollie is showing he's uncomfortable...worried his bully stick will be taken away, is something that should be worked with. Growling is good...don't punish that. As you know, he's communicating...that's all. However, being uncomfortable should be turned into feeling just fine if someone comes near. It is indeed natural to protect their stuff. But we, as dog owners need to modify that behavior for safety and for the dog's well being...to feel at ease when we come near or anyone comes near when he has a high value thing like a bully stick. And it's easy for them to learn. My dogs would naturally prefer not to have their bully sticks taken away. Heck, I wouldn't like my rib eye steak I'm about to sit down and eat swiped away either. But if someone handed me $100 and took the steak, then gave me back the steak also...what could be better? Total win win. So my dogs have learned that if I ask for their bully stick, since they've had a good history of this kind of trading, it doesn't worry them in the least. I still, after quite a bit of time practicing, give them something special when I take their prize away _sometimes_. And sometimes I don't. (variable...to keep that nice behavior strong)

I recommend you hold off on the bully sticks and work with a less valuable item and condition Ollie to giving you the item as you trade him for a higher value thing. But don't start out with the super high value item or a super high value thing to trade. Gradually you'll raise the value of both the item to swap and the thing you're giving in return. It's a game, trading one thing for something better. You use a cue like "give" for instance and your dog drops it in your hand. You give the piece of a treat and take the thing he has in his mouth...something he likes but doesn't love as much as a bully stick. Then you give that item back. So he gets a treat and he still gets his toy or whatever back. When he takes it, give a cue like "take." Back and forth...playful, silly voice to make it fun. Then as he gets onto it, raise the value of the item he gets...a much liked toy or tasteless bone. Trade him for something better. And so on...gradually working up to a bully stick. Trade him for a piece of steak or whatever tastes better than the bully stick. Give/take. Give him back the bully stick and they leave him alone. He will learn that giving you something he values is no skin off his nose. He not only gets a much better treat, but he gets that thing he had back again. Practice this every day for 5 minutes. Don't forget to plan it out what you're going to use. It's a graduated in value type of thing he'll have and the treat or prize you're going to swap. And it's a fun game. Not arduous. Get him a little revved up for the game. 

This make it much less likely that his discomfort that he's showing by growling and moving away with his prize will lead to the very real possibility of escalating to a bite if he is pushed just a little too far. His tolerance can vary from day to day or hour to hour, depending on what has preceded his chewing on his bully stick. Just like us, dogs have bad days too...maybe more stress than usual, maybe a headache...who knows? But if he's already reached near his threshold and now he's got more pressure on him than usual (which we might not ever know) it can lead to a shorter fuse. So teaching him this lesson will make him much more trusting and comfortable when anyone comes near his valued things. 

After you work with him and give him a good foundation, ask a few other people...your kids to practice this game with him also. And vary your location where you practice. Vary the items, starting with lower value and working upward.

I would personally recommend working with Ollie a little more before diving in with another puppy. I don't see any of this as your fault with Ella. I think her temperament is not stable. That is not something you caused. However, I sense that you and your family could use a little more experience and practice before taking on a new puppy. And Ollie would be the perfect dog to do a little more work with prior to taking on the sometimes over whelming work of a new puppy. It is awesome you've taught him some basic obedience. I'd keep working on that and improving on it...adding a few more variations of the skills or teaching him a few new things. 

With your video there of Ella "playing" with that dog bed, I get it that it can resemble normal play that dogs do...that prey drive/play thing. But in this case, I'm seeing something more. To me she looks more like she's releasing anxiety rather than purely fun play. I could be wrong. But it just seems a little different. It's more intense/ frantic than how my dogs play when they do that sort of thing. I saw how she looked at your son's (was that your son?) hand with those turned eyes...clearly uncomfortable. It could have been a matter of a split of a second that she might have broken off from the dog bed and attacked and bitten him. jmo. 

All this, is of course your decision. And I'm sure you know your family and your situation best. But all I or anyone can do is go off of what you show and tell here on this thread and then make my opinion or judgement call, which could be off. It's no more than an estimate more or less. I know how difficult this must be and I'm really sorry. I have a feeling though, she'd be better off in a different situation. And so would you. (probably)


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

We do / have been working with Ollie on trade. He’s good if he sees the treat to trade. But yes we need to work on this more for sure!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You should not feel like you are to blame. I think Ella is just plain a poorly tempered dog. It would take a really extraordinary trainer to make lemonade out of this bunch of lemons. I do think you should stop trying to excuse away her behavior though since it would be wildly inappropriate to rehome her to any less than an excellent trainer with her background.


I also agree with poodlebeguiled on her thoughts regarding Ollie. He is resource guarding those bully sticks. The easy thing to do is to not give him bully sticks but he could transfer that guarding behavior to some other item(s). Resource guarding is potentially very dangerous and can become an escalating behavior. A woman who called my obedience club a few months ago to see if we offered a class for her mixed breed adolescent dog. I think it was a totally nut job mix like a pit and a tervuran. She said the dog was doing some behaviors around the food bowl that she referred to as being nervous but was clearly full out food guarding with growling and curled lips along with moving the body to be between the food bowl and the people. I was pretty surprised that no one had been bitten yet and explained to her there was nothing a class could do for this problem and referred her to a good certified behaviorist I know. 



No one should feel they have created a problem with their dog (99+% of the time) since I think most problems like this have their roots in a series of small errors and responses from dogs that people don't notice and such. Nearly every capable person on earth recognizes that a dog that is growling is telling you they are unhappy about something that is happening, but most people will have missed a bunch of signs the dog gave before it turned to the growl like an ear flick or glance in the direction of something annoying with eyes wide and ears flat and back or the slightest curl of the lip or staring behavior from one dog to another which is generally pretty rude behavior. I once had Lily at a pet expo and a sort of odd character asked if he could pet her. I said yes and asked him not to touch the top of her head. After a bit of visiting a woman came and took him away. In the meantime she has shown a few stress signs to other people so I had moved her further away from the aisle so she was right next to me. He returned a while later and reached over her head to pet without asking. I stopped him from touching her again. He was offended because he thought he didn't have to ask again. My reply to him was that she now didn't want to be petted. He asked how I knew that and I asked him if he had not heard her warning growl which was very serious. I suspect she would have snapped in his direction had he not withdrawn his hand that second time.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Regarding Ollie, I agree that we fell down on the trade / take thing. We haven’t been consistent enough in training this. Now I must say it is VERY minimal with him (my husband says it’s so minimal that it’s barely worth mentioning - I tend to make things sound worse because That’s my personality). 

I just experimented with him. When he was sitting beside me with a lamb ear, no issues. I was able to put hands near him and no reaction. I said drop and he ignored me (but I had nothing to trade at the moment). Then he got up and moved away (no growling). So yes, we definitely need to work with him.

But it is my goal to work daily with him on it so that IF we get another puppy in three months, it won’t be an issue. I also plan to work hard on other new training techniques (like from Zak George) and just work with him daily to make him the very best he can be.

I will say that Ollie does much better having another dog in the house. They play / chase each other / keep each other company. He gets in way less trouble / less bored. He’s actually a great dog who listens well and trains easily and some more one-on-one will help him so much. But he loves having a “friend” for sure. He would be almost two years old by the time a new pup came to live with us.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

tammyw said:


> .... And then there is the fact that my son is becoming fearful of Ella. Will that impact his feeling of dogs?


This so saddens me. Your son is more important than any dog! 

Please do the right thing asap and re-home this dog, no matter how difficult it is.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

kontiki said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > .... And then there is the fact that my son is becoming fearful of Ella. Will that impact his feeling of dogs?
> ...


I sent the message to the breeder. Per our contract, our only option is returning Ella to her. Hopefully this can be resolved. I’m so very sad though. My heart is in pieces.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I watched the video of Ella playing and it made me uncomfortable. There is something not right. Also, I felt the way your husband pet her was not helping. With a stable dog, this would be okay. But with her, you could tell she was close to biting a few times. You could see her brain working clearly.

I hope the breeder finds the right home for her. She would need to be an only dog, in a home with someone with lots of time, and experience.

Don’t feel guily, it’s the only thing to do. Time will fix everything, for you, your family, and for Ella.


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

tammyw said:


> Video I just took. This is how she plays by herself. He touched her to show she was okay with it (he had just been petting).
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=MVbMF3bCkZQ


Also coming late to this and just seeing this: In this video I counted at least 3 different signals from her that she was not ok with being touched. Whale eyes twice and stiffening of the body at least once - but I think more times. These are all clear signals that the dog gives that it is not comfortable with being touched. I think I have to agree with Catherine - I would also not have been ok with any of the biting incidents you mentioned and even though you said you are not making excuses for her - you actually are. She gets away with all this due to her size. Imagine if she was a Standard Poodle or even a Pit Bull. She may do much better back at the breeders or with another home. I don't see that this is going to improve but I do see that this is going to get a lot worse very fast. Please think of it as doing the right thing by you, your kids and your dog giving her back to the breeder even if it hurts.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

My 2 cents: what I saw in the video was attacking and “killing” her prey over and over. It also made me very uncomfortable watching it. My dogs like to shake things too, but not time after time, over and over, all the time. Neither do they growl so intently, if at all, while doing so. IMO that was definitely not a play growl. It sounded like one of frustration, anxiety, and maybe even just plain meanness. 

Please take that dog back to the breeder. I had a 4.8 lb chi who was similar but never bit me. I saw all the signs of him turning out like Ella, and ignored them until it got too late. He was aggressive to Zeke when he was 13 weeks old. Just walking by him would trigger him to attack Zeke: it almost seemed like it was fun for him. 

A bit later he started attacking his own mom, and finally, me. I had to make the heart wrenching to rehire him or pts. I went through a rescue and he was tried out in a home with one person, zero animals. He did good for a while, but I believe, sadly, thinks digressed. 

Ella is not a happy dog. Please take her back to the breeder if that is your only choice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Moni said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > Video I just took. This is how she plays by herself. He touched her to show she was okay with it (he had just been petting).
> ...


FWIW, if it sounds like I’m making excuses, it’s because I want to make sure that I very clearly outline what’s happened so there are no misunderstandings. Also, I wanted to make sure I exhausted every possible solution, because I never considered myself someone who would give up on a pet. And finally, because I had completely second guessed myself for so long because Ella’s breeder basically Pooh-poohed our concerns, made suggestions that we weren’t strict enough with her, and at one point just started ignoring our texts and phone calls. This has been one of the most stressful things I’ve had to go through: it feels a bit like taking in a child and then saying “sorry, I don’t want you anymore”. It’s hard! It’s devastating! When she looks in my eyes with her sweet little face, when she plops her little body down next to me, when she greets us with so much excitement every time we see her, when she plays with Ollie and they have so much fun!


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

jojogal001 said:


> My 2 cents: what I saw in the video was attacking and “killing” her prey over and over. It also made me very uncomfortable watching it. My dogs like to shake things too, but not time after time, over and over, all the time. Neither do they growl so intently, if at all, while doing so. IMO that was definitely not a play growl. It sounded like wine of frustration, anxiety, and maybe even just plain meanness.
> 
> Please take that dog back to the breeder. I had a 4.8 lb chi who was similar but never bit me. I saw all the signs of him turning out like Ella, and ignored them until it got too late. He was aggressive to Zeke when he was 13 weeks old. Just walking by him would trigger him to attack Zeke: it almost seemed like it was fun for him.
> 
> ...


And here is where the problem began. After we got her, Ella’s breeder basically made this stuff out to be normal and just her. “She’s bossy. She’s just talking. She’s just playing.” We don’t have enough dog background to recognize that in fact, these things are not ok.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I know you want to see the good things about her, but the bad things definitely outweigh the good. Please stop torturing yourself. Not all dogs work out with new owners. There is something wrong with her. D

My chi would do all those sweet things you just mentioned, but if I told him to “get down” from my chair, and he didn’t, if I dared to put my hand near him he did his best to bite me. It doesn’t get better. It gets worse for you, your family and the other dogs. 

I do know how heart wrenching it is, but you have to think with your head and common sense, instead of your heart. Your heart will heal. Scars are there forever. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I just have to say that I am so disappointed in this breeder and I am wondering if she will try to pass this dog onto another unsuspecting family. She obviously knew about these behaviors and tried to pass it off as "being bossy." Ridiculous. 

I am so sorry, Tammy. Watching that video, I agree with the others that she was showing she didn't want to be touched. If she had let go of what she was chewing on, she probably would have bit your husband. I am not sure what will happen with Ella, but it's definitely the breeder's responsibility to figure it out at this point.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

tammyw said:


> Do you use it daily? What were the results? What made you try it in the first place?
> 
> She has so active and SO happy to be home. She’s also been drinking tons of water (probably because the dog’s keep chasing each other so much!) I’m still cautious as I don’t have a lot of confidence that the aggression is gone but I’m not stressed about it anymore at least and I feel confident that it will somehow all work out, even if that means she needs a new home. I think it is because I feel confident we have researched every possible idea and that no matter what, it’s been well thought out.
> 
> I so appreciate being able to talk it all out here. It’s helped me work through it all and more importantly, opened my eyes to certain things I might not have seen before. This is such a valuable forum and once again, I’m grateful to be a part of such a great community and support system. So thank you!


Just to answer your questions re our experience with Noel and the Prozac:

My husband was admitted to hospital in the middle of the night for an urgent heart procedure. I made it home early afternoon to check on our poodle girls. I was sitting on the loveseat with a bowl of soup on a tray and suddenly the girls just flew at each other, tooth and nail. Soup went flying as I broke up the fight. There was no blood but I don't know if that was due to my intervention or if they weren't going to escalate any more. It was terrifying. 

After DH was back home, I told him and we agreed that we just wouldn't leave them alone together. Noel even started grrring in her sleep and starting herself awake, leaping up ready to fight. There were a few more very scary fights and we realized we had to do something to help Noel and Holly both. Our vet suggested the Prozac. I've said before that I don't like just throwing pills at a problem, but I also thought about how antidepressants along with therapy helped me with my depressive episode. We went for it, one 10mg pill a day, and in her case, for the rest of her life. There wasn't any training done (therapy for dogs) since we were trying to restore a previously normal balance. 

We were lucky, it started helping her within a week. She stopped having the sleep grrr's and interacted completely normally with Holly again. They were 9 years old when this started. 

I speculate but don't know for a fact why this happened, but I do know the med helped. Your situation is different, but I still think for Ella's sake wherever she ends up, it couldn't hurt to try. If the breeder steps up, tho, I suppose that's her decision to make. Aggression is something Prozac can help.

I can't imagine the difficulty of this situation. I hope all your hearts heal and Ella gets another chance at a loving home like you intended.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Today has been very emotional for me. Ella’s aggression really started escalating last night and this morning. 

Ella’s breeder phoned and unfortunately it didn’t go well. Among all the accusations was that this is basically all our fault, that she was perfect when she sent her to us, maybe she was given too much anesthesia, etc. There was also a complaint about the videos because they were “forced” rather than actual interactions. And I explained, again, that without walking around with a video 24/7, we had no idea how else to give her the proof she required. I don’t think there is any winning in this situation.

She said for me to drop her back at the local breeder’s home (who has been nothing less than wonderful in handling this). I said I wanted confirmation of getting a refund before doing so and was told no, we aren’t getting our $2500 purchase price back, we aren’t getting our $700 surgery fee back, that when she resells her (she apparently has someone lined up), she can give us “some” money. I did explain my nervousness with her being in a home of anyone other than someone skilled in training. She said it’s a single woman.

Then she said that if I don’t return her ASAP to local breeder that I was holding her hostage and if I cared at all about animals I would do so. I mean we bought Ella and have a contract showing such so I’m not sure how we can hold our own animal hostage?

So it is done. Ella was NOT happy about going back. She immediately started barking and whining and wanting me to pick her up. It was nothing short of devastating having to walk away knowing I wouldn’t see her again, not knowing where she would end up. 

I can only hope and pray she is given to someone who will love her and can work with her issues. The rest is out of my hands. 

Thank you all for trying to help me resolve this and try to work out the problem. I appreciate the support, guidance, and feedback. It seems it is time to move on and start the healing process.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

The breeder is a cruel and disgustingly unethical person and this situation just saddens me to no end. Poor you and your family, and poor Ella. Today must have been so traumatic for all of you. Sending up prayers for healing for you and a good situation for Ella. I'm so sorry.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

I’m so sorry, what a terrible situation. The breeder sounds incredibly unethical. You made the right choice for your family, now we can just hope that poor Ella is able to adjust to a new situation.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

tammyw said:


> She said for me to drop her back at the local breeder’s home (who has been nothing less than wonderful in handling this). I said I wanted confirmation of getting a refund before doing so and was told no, we aren’t getting our $2500 purchase price back, we aren’t getting our $700 surgery fee back, that when she resells her (she apparently has someone lined up), she can give us “some” money.


Are there steps that can now be taken against this breeder? There must be something that can done to either recover more than just "some" of your money (or get a replacement dog, but I wouldn't trust this breeder for that). I know it's not about the money, but this breeder needs to be held accountable. Please call out this breeder on this forum so people know. People here have connections and can spread the word.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Tammy, my heart goes out to you and your family. You have had the most miserable, heart wrenching experience with this breeder and Ella. No one should have had to go through this and I do blame the breeder. I understand how you feel, that you failed Ella, but the truth is Ella had more problems that you or most people could cope with.

I do hope you get your money returned, not sure if you can sue in small claims court. I rented a house in another city and that landlord gave us grief over returning our deposit so I filed claims in my local small claims court and the landlord at the very last minute returned all our fees. I’m not a lawyer and not sure if you would have this option. 

A puppy from Ollie’s breeder sounds like a great plan which will help you and your family move forward.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I am so terribly sorry for all you've been through and all you're going through. It's absolutely heart wrenching. You feel for Ella so deeply and on the other hand, you must go against your natural instincts to nurture and repair her. It is absolutely nothing you did. It's a very poor temperament. There are dogs that have been abused severely and they still turn out all right. I know this first hand. Some dogs have a really good, strong temperament, some do not.

I agree with the last few posts. She's immoral, greedy, has no empathy whatsoever. (probably a narcissist) Additionally, I would write a letter to the state's attorney general's office...if this breeder is in another state, then you have to write one to your own state's attorney general's office and to the state where the breeder resides. This is something I've dealt with in the past when I had a problem. And my daughter also. You should receive prompt and efficient help if it's feasible, if they think you've been wronged. We had very good results. You could also, if that does fail, get an attorney to write this bioch a letter. Often times, the mere thought of a law suit will prompt action on the part of the cheater. What did your contract say as to what kind of dog you'd be getting...any guarantee? This is an ambiguous situation and it may not be fruitful but it might be worth a shot. Just don't invest so much time and trouble that it causes you too much over-the-top stress. But you might just check into a few things. 

It's a very bad thing this greedy, extremely self-involved monster did and will be likely continuing to do to unsuspecting people and the dogs she damages by breeding them. She should be called out here and on FB. She should be reported to the AKC, the poodle club of America and anyone else we can think of. I'd threaten her and give her one last chance to pay up or else. I'd make her name mud and when it's all your opinion and you say so... and facts, it's not libel or slander as far as I understand. You can ask an attorney. I'd let her have it!:angry:

And I'm so sorry. The pain will ease up eventually but this is just a terrible blow. My heart goes out to you.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Thank you all for the kind words. I have cried many tears today and I feel completely spent. The local breeder, when I took Ella to her home, was so kind and felt awful. I hugged her and cried on her shoulder. Even just typing this brings the tears again. My pets are my family. It feels like a death has occurred except I’m not able to really mourn in the way one would normally because of the unfortunate situation.

Ella’s breeder is, unfortunately, in another state. I believe that makes things much more complicated.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't think it would be that much more complicated, truthfully Tammy. I would say to write a letter explaining the situation is as few words as possible...that this breeder sold you a dog that at 7 months she must have seen the dog's temperament and/or aggressive behavior. And how the minute you brought Ella into you home, she became aggressive and biting. This breeder, I think you can prove with testimony from others in your family, friends, neighbors sold you a dangerous dog knowingly. I believe if you write, like I said to both state's attorney general's office, you may get some advice, if not direct help from them. Maybe there is no remedy but maybe there is. There's no way to find out without checking it out...unless you are just too wiped out emotionally to bother with it. And I wouldn't blame you for that. 

You, as a family deserve the dog you dreamed of...a dog more like Ollie, a dog you can trust, who trusts you 100% and who you can do things with that you both enjoy. 

And Ella deserves a stop to whatever torment is causing her behavior...either someone who can work with her and where she can be an only dog or she should be put down to end whatever it is that is causing her to lash out that way. It's the saddest thing ever to see this suffering. And that breeder is a horrible, money grabbing, immoral creature who should be known as such before she destroys more people and puppies. And she needs to be stopped. Not knowing who she is would be doing a disservice to more dogs she breeds and more people who hand over that much money and get ripped off and crushed.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You did what you had to do for the well being of you and the rest of your family. It is horrendous that things like this happen. I feel very fortunate that I have only had good experiences with the breeders of both of our poodles and of our GSD. When you are ready I wish you the kinds of smooth sailing with a great breeder like we have had. I will be holding out a virtual shoulder to cry on for as long as needed.


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

I am so sorry this ended this way. You have been in my thoughts all day - I just came here to check on this. I want you to know that you did absolutely nothing wrong here. If you were the wrong home for this dog = breeder's fault. If she was not properly socialized = breeder's fault. If she had a faulty temperament = breeder's fault. I think there is such a thing as a puppy lemon law. Also I think that the AKC should be involved and lastly I don't think it would be out of the question to out her here since her behavior is the kind we tend to warn each other about as current and future Poodle owners. You deserve a lovely puppy who will be a gentle and happy part of your crew. Take time to heal.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

This isn't just some backyard breeder, but apparently one who is claiming to be an AKC Breeder of Merit. At this point, the breeder needs to have some sort of documented proof that Ella was stable before selling her, especially to a family with children. There is enough proof she isn't a stable puppy.

Even if she does refund your money, people need to know about this breeder.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Moni said:


> I am so sorry this ended this way. You have been in my thoughts all day - I just came here to check on this. I want you to know that you did absolutely nothing wrong here. If you were the wrong home for this dog = breeder's fault. If she was not properly socialized = breeder's fault. If she had a faulty temperament = breeder's fault.* I think there is such a thing as a puppy lemon law. *Also I think that the AKC should be involved and lastly I don't think it would be out of the question to out her here since her behavior is the kind we tend to warn each other about as current and future Poodle owners. You deserve a lovely puppy who will be a gentle and happy part of your crew. Take time to heal.



*Yes! I think so too Moni.*


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

I just know that this morning on the phone, when I was asking about a refund before giving up Ella, she said if I wanted to pursue that, I would have to hire a lawyer in Tennessee, where she lives. I’ve been shattered by it. She kept talking over me, louder and louder, and more upsetting and finally I had to tell her I couldn’t let her talk to me that way anymore and that she would have to speak to my husband.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

The contract states the following:

The Seller guarantees this puppy/dog to be of sound health and temperament at the time of this sale....

(In her opinion, she was of perfect health and temperament at time of sale and she told us it was completely my son’s fault he was bit for putting his face close to hers.)


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

what were her reasons for the other biting episodes? so strange. a good breeder who thought you were mistreating her dog would ask that you send her back immediately.


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

tammyw said:


> The contract states the following:
> 
> The Seller guarantees this puppy/dog to be of sound health and temperament at the time of this sale....
> 
> (In her opinion, she was of perfect health and temperament at time of sale and she told us it was completely my son’s fault he was bit for putting his face close to hers.)


Yes well that is a big red flag of dishonesty. It was 100% not your son's fault - a sound dog moves away, averts its head and eyes, licks its lips, growls, snarls, lifts its lips and shows teeth, growls and then growls louder and may give a snap in the air - all things way before it will bite. These signals are very hard to miss even for a child - and I know your son is a teenager. A sound dog will try everything and bite as a very last resort and then only into the air or if there is tooth to skin contact a well adjusted dog with proper bite inhibition will not break skin - not even when it is way out of its comfort zone or startled or woken up. Just moving his face into her face does not warrant a bite - ever.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Moni said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > The contract states the following:
> ...


I was there in that moment and there were literally no warnings. She lunges at his face and bit. It happened in a fraction of a second. This wasn’t their first meeting, either. My son and husband traveled to Tennessee to pick her up, kept her in the hotel over night with them, and then brought them home on the plane with them (either on their knee or under the seat in her carry bag).

When he was bit, it was his bottom lip and he was crying and bleeding over the sink. I immediately felt sick and regret (like what have we done?!) knowing this shouldn’t happen. I called the breeder immediately and she just said one should never put their face near a dog especially if they have a treat. There was no concern about it, just that we had done wrong. We then had to convince ourselves and our son of that information, once he stopped crying.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

patk said:


> what were her reasons for the other biting episodes? so strange. a good breeder who thought you were mistreating her dog would ask that you send her back immediately.


After the surgery, she started being aggressive shortly after. She asked for videos. That’s when we had to make the videos I showed — I explained that she showed us aggression, we then grabbed the phone to record, and moved our hand toward her so that the breeder could see how she was reacting. Sure it would have been better for us to be recording for hours at a time to catch the aggression as it happened naturally but that was just too much with our busy lives.

Today she basically said that we were taunting her in those videos and making her show aggression and that’s why she was the way she was. When in fact, in one of them, she had been leaning against me, I was petting her, then she suddenly started growling, snapped at me with teeth, and moved away. That is when we started recording. Sure if we had left her alone completely at that point, she would have eventually been okay, but the breeder wanted video proof. What were we to do?

Today she said that since that aggression started after surgery, she may have gotten too much anesthesia during surgery and that of course would not be her fault.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh boy...I would pursue this lemon law. I'd call a lawyer who specializes in this type of thing and show him/her the video. Get some other breeders or dog show people to watch the videos and write what they think. Seriously. Go after this piece of #^%! Start in your state and see what a lawyer thinks. Usually they'll give you a free consultation. You can go online to the bar association list of lawyers in Tennessee who are in good standing. You can call to find out. I did this when I needed a lawyer in another state. Call one, ask about this. Maybe he or she will tell you it's not a very hopeful thing. But you don't know until you ask. Maybe there IS something that could be done. I'd go after her even if it cost me more than $2,500. Just to get her off the streets. I wish we could know who she is to prevent others from being hurt. Anyhow, maybe you don't feel like going through all that but it just might give you some satisfaction AND save someone else this heartache. Put this lowest of the low brows out of business. :angry:


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

I think that this breeder is in deep denial about the temperament of this dog. This is unfortunately nothing new. When I lost my Dalmatian at 4 to sudden onset seizures I was also blamed by the top notch Dal breeder in the country that I had caused them! When the vet even said that grand mal seizures out of the blue was not anything I could possibly had caused. I could have sued but decided it was not worth the ongoing agony - and not to mention the many thousands we spent at the vet. Sometimes it is just saner to let go and chalk it up to lesson learned.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I’m so sorry this is ending so bad. I am really saddened and almost in tears.

You will probably never see your money again, and it’s a shame. Now you have to decide whether it’s worth it to pursue this further and spend money to get back a few hundreds, maybe less, once all your fees have been paid.

It might not be worth it financially, nor emotionally. Maybe the best is to put this nightmare behind you. And never talk to this crappy person again.

You might get some peace of mind by getting news of Ella from the local breeder once she has settled into her home. Knowing she is doing well will help you turn the page.

I wish you the best.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

The thing that hurts most is the accusation that we clearly did something to cause this. That somehow we aren’t good enough pet parents. Almost every friend we have teases us about how good our pets have it. They know how much we love and care about them. When we got Ollie, we hired a very high quality trainer to get him the very best start that we could (this is the trainer who recommended we either return Ella or hire a vet behaviorist (and said that it would be a very long and expensive road if we decided on this route)). 

Any little thing, vet visit. Our mobile groomer comes every four weeks and always says our pets are the luckiest pets she knows. We provide the highest quality food, never leave them alone more than a few hours, lots of toys and playing and attention, and lots and lots of love. So I take it very personally when she insinuated that this is all our fault and that she just wishes we would have returned her four months ago.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

My heart aches for you. This has all been such a terrible struggle that should have never happened. And this was NOT your fault. I’m so sorry you had to go through this.

As far as asking an attorney questions, there is a site online where you can ask a question, and an attorney will get back with who is an expert in this field. It costs $5 for a 1 week trial, and you can ask as many questions as you like.

This can be done through email or in chat. I had some valuable questions answered in a situation and the lawyer really knew what he was talking about, it wasn’t what I wanted to hear, but he provided the needed answers.

It is:
Www.justanswer.com

I would try that before hiring an expensive lawyer just to see what your rights are. I hope this will help you and give you honest and knowledgeable answers as to what and what not can be done.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Tammy, 
This has been a nightmare for you, but you have done the right thing. I was getting so worried for your son that this was dragging on. And for you for extending the pain and worry. 

I am glad you got the recommendation from the trainer, and have the videos. 

Make sure you do Not verbally talk to this breeder again. Any interaction should be in writing, very carefully and objectively worded, or even better through an attorney. She sounds like she could twist anything to refuse to accept any responsibility.

Let go of anything she has said negative about you. She is just trying to put the blame on you. We know otherwise, and in your heart you do too!

Blessings and healing to you and your family.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I am so sorry the breeder has treated you the way she has. Many many years ago I bred schnauzers. I had one pup who was fine when he left but 3 weeks later the person told me he was vicious and snarled at everyone. I took him back and returned his money. I didn't want my pup in his home so. Under my mentor we discovered he was an alpha pup and needed to be in a home where he would be taught rules and not babies (this man wanted to bad y him and the pup quickly took advantage). WE did fine the right home and he lived happily for 15 years. We determined that 4 generations back one of her studs had a very alpha personality and she stopped breeding him, apparently one of his offspring passed this gene on. Since this breeder is uncooperative and thinks you did something to the pup and won't return your money I would NOT return the pup to her. I would rehome her on my home maybe with the help of your trainer to a place that can handle her and where she will be an only dog and get structure. Not all dogs are cuddling love bugs and maybe with the right person she will be ok. Please know you did nothing wrong, the dog is just wired differently. This is not a good breeder, even if she truly believed you did something wrong she would have returned your $ and taken the dog back. She is breeding for money only. I say cut your loses and nothing wrong with saying on this forum who this breeder is and that she won't return your money because she thinks in4 months you did something wrong. No one wants a puppy from a person like that and its fact so she can't complain.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

kontiki said:


> Tammy,
> This has been a nightmare for you, but you have done the right thing. I was getting so worried for your son that this was dragging on. And for you for extending the pain and worry.
> 
> I am glad you got the recommendation from the trainer, and have the videos.
> ...


Thank you and that is good advice about not speaking verbally with her.

Would you believe that we have requested many times to return her? When the aggression first happened we told her but were advised it’s just the surgery, she is in pain, etc. We wrote emails and tried calling a number of times with requests that “We want to return her” and were mostly just ignored. It was t until we mentioned calling AKC that she said she would “look into it” with her co-breeder yet it still dragged on. But we made many requests to return her with no response.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Mufar42 said:


> I am so sorry the breeder has treated you the way she has. Many many years ago I bred schnauzers. I had one pup who was fine when he left but 3 weeks later the person told me he was vicious and snarled at everyone. I took him back and returned his money. I didn't want my pup in his home so. Under my mentor we discovered he was an alpha pup and needed to be in a home where he would be taught rules and not babies (this man wanted to bad y him and the pup quickly took advantage). WE did fine the right home and he lived happily for 15 years. We determined that 4 generations back one of her studs had a very alpha personality and she stopped breeding him, apparently one of his offspring passed this gene on. Since this breeder is uncooperative and thinks you did something to the pup and won't return your money I would NOT return the pup to her. I would rehome her on my home maybe with the help of your trainer to a place that can handle her and where she will be an only dog and get structure. Not all dogs are cuddling love bugs and maybe with the right person she will be ok. Please know you did nothing wrong, the dog is just wired differently. This is not a good breeder, even if she truly believed you did something wrong she would have returned your $ and taken the dog back. She is breeding for money only. I say cut your loses and nothing wrong with saying on this forum who this breeder is and that she won't return your money because she thinks in4 months you did something wrong. No one wants a puppy from a person like that and its fact so she can't complain.


I gave her to the local breeder yesterday. She was acting really aggressive towards Ollie and everyone and it was either keep her in a puppy playpen or hand her over to local breeder. Honestly? I trust the local breeder. She is a kind woman who only wants to help. And I believe that the right thing will happen thanks to her. She is doing all of this because of kindness (she didn’t know Ella’s breeder, just a friend of Ella’s breeder). 

So even if we never see a penny, I have faith that she will make sure the right thing happens for Ella and that is all I can ask for right now, because I do love her and want a good home for her.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

I went back to look at texts and may 6 we advised her of the aggression. We were told “it is the surgery, her hormones are all mixed up, we are letting her be the boss of us”. She kept calling her bossy and marge in charge.

We didn’t change our parenting style from before the surgery to after. She was a dog that listened well (eg came when we called, sat, down, etc) so she seemed well behaved and we really believed that she was messed up from hormones (I found several references about aggression after spay surgery especially if she was near first heat). She did bark a lot even before and we told the breeder that and she said just tell her “no bark” which of course didn’t work and also to put our fingers on top and bottom of her muzzle (which of course also didn’t work). What did have some effect was counter conditioning (via zak George abs kikopup videos). But we could tell from day one that she was “different”. At one point we outlined all of the concerns with the breeder and she basically had one reason or another for why (girls are different than boys, that we need to find a new trainer, don’t pet while in bed or resting, that giving a bully stick is like giving an alcoholic beer).

I’m hesitant to give a name, yes. I don’t want anyone to ever deal with what I am dealing with, but I’m also nervous about being targeted by her. I don’t know the law well enough to feel comfortable exposing her.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

If anyone is not just curious, but actually shopping for a toy poodle, you could probably PM Tammy to make sure you're not dealing with the same lady. But I share her concerns in naming the breeder at this time. People can be absolutely crazy in today's world so it's not something to mess around with.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i wouldn't name the breeder, though i wouldn't hesitate to help another pf member out by pming them a warning if asked. in any case, there are only so many breeders of merit of brown toys in tennessee. one can guess.

you do know that you can print your texts, don't you? i would do so for your own records. also keep any bills from the vet/behaviorist and trainer. look them over carefully and decide if you want to report to akc. warning: you probably won't get much help. akc is a closed society in many ways and they'll be reluctant to do anything about a breeder of merit, especially since, absent any other evidence, she would point out that you are a lone complainer among her many buyers.
ella brings to mind the many stories out there about barky, snappish toy dogs whose owners always carry them. maybe there's a gene involved. (i admit it, for moment patty duke and 'the bad seed' crossed my mind.) but you did your best and that's all you can do. hopefully ollie's breeder will have another sweetie to offer you.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

patk said:


> i wouldn't name the breeder, though i wouldn't hesitate to help another pf member out by pming them a warning if asked. in any case, there are only so many breeders of merit of brown toys in tennessee. one can guess.
> 
> you do know that you can print your texts, don't you? i would do so for your own records. also keep any bills from the vet/behaviorist and trainer. look them over carefully and decide if you want to report to akc. warning: you probably won't get much help. akc is a closed society in many ways and they'll be reluctant to do anything about a breeder of merit, especially since, absent any other evidence, she would point out that you are a lone complainer among her many buyers.
> ella brings to mind the many stories out there about barky, snappish toy dogs whose owners always carry them. maybe there's a gene involved. (i admit it, for moment patty duke and 'the bad seed' crossed my mind.) but you did your best and that's all you can do. hopefully ollie's breeder will have another sweetie to offer you.


At the end of the day, I know we did all that we could do. I know that there was nothing we did to make Ella the way that she is. And I now know the difference between good breeders and bad. ALWAYS ask for multiple referrals. I did not do that with Ella’s breeder — my mistake. I absolutely would go with Ollie’s breeder in the future. And I know she will stand behind her dogs. 

Sometimes things happen that simply aren’t fair. Sometimes people don’t act honorably. I can’t control that. I can only control that I act with strong morals and values in all I do. Ella clearly has special needs that our family cannot provide. I dearly hope that she lands in a place where she can grow and thrive and eliminate the anxiety she so obviously has. I probably will never know the outcome and that’s what saddens me now.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

tammyw said:


> I gave her to the local breeder yesterday. She was acting really aggressive towards Ollie and everyone and it was either keep her in a puppy playpen or hand her over to local breeder. Honestly? I trust the local breeder. She is a kind woman who only wants to help. And I believe that the right thing will happen thanks to her. She is doing all of this because of kindness (she didn’t know Ella’s breeder, just a friend of Ella’s breeder).
> 
> So even if we never see a penny, I have faith that she will make sure the right thing happens for Ella and that is all I can ask for right now, because I do love her and want a good home for her.


It sounds to me that you are a kind and responsible person. It is very good that the local breeder took her. I truly understand. Even though you probably lost your money I think it was the right move.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Mufar42 said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > I gave her to the local breeder yesterday. She was acting really aggressive towards Ollie and everyone and it was either keep her in a puppy playpen or hand her over to local breeder. Honestly? I trust the local breeder. She is a kind woman who only wants to help. And I believe that the right thing will happen thanks to her. She is doing all of this because of kindness (she didn’t know Ella’s breeder, just a friend of Ella’s breeder).
> ...


I really, really do care about Ella. I care so much about her that I knew she needed a different home - one that can meet her special needs. She sounds to be doing okay right now and I’m so grateful for that update.


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## Engel (Mar 31, 2019)

All the dogs I have had have been neutered/spayed. 

Beau (my male bichon) was done at 8 months. He became very chill and less excitable and with that there's been less mouthing, chewing and marking. He is also more sensible around other dogs and overall more manageable. 

Pebbles (Lhasa apso) was spayed at 20 months. There has been no difference in behaviour. She still barks/growls at other dogs (even though she lives happily with 2 others), she still marks still as active.

Bella (toy poo x shih Tzu?) has just been spayed yesterday, at 4 years 7 months so its hard to tell at the moment. But I had my patterdale terrier, Toby, got fixed at about 5 years old as we were told he'd calm down and NOTHING changed. He'd bolt from the house if the door was left open. He attacked other dogs, still marked and was a madman up until the week he died. 

Personally I believe that if the behaviour is hormone based then it will affect it. If not, or if it's deeply engrained then I don't think it'll change its behaviour. You can't teach an old dog new tricks so to speak.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

*I really, really do care about Ella. I care so much about her that I knew she needed a different home - one that can meet her special needs. She sounds to be doing okay right now and I’m so grateful for that update.*

Its been very obvious that you care deeply. I hope she will do ok and that this breeder will work with her and either keep her or find the right home. I also hope she keeps you updated. That would be nice. I'm looking forward to hearing about the new lil guy that will come home when he is old enough. You know at some point in all of our lives things happen, stuff doesn't work out, we move on knowing we have been the best person we can.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Mufar42 said:


> *I really, really do care about Ella. I care so much about her that I knew she needed a different home - one that can meet her special needs. She sounds to be doing okay right now and I’m so grateful for that update.*
> 
> Its been very obvious that you care deeply. I hope she will do ok and that this breeder will work with her and either keep her or find the right home. I also hope she keeps you updated. That would be nice. I'm looking forward to hearing about the new lil guy that will come home when he is old enough. You know at some point in all of our lives things happen, stuff doesn't work out, we move on knowing we have been the best person we can.


That doesn’t mean that I don’t want to get in the car and drive over to visit or bring her home. I’ve been doing pretty well until I actually think about her sweet face or of something she did. Then it hits me again. I’m really grateful for the local breeder but once she goes back to Tennessee, who knows if I’ll get an update. That makes me sad.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Dear Tammy. I hope you will go look at the sweet face of your dear son who is not being attacked And spend your love on your current family ! 

I also want to say that I truly think that there are dogs who have a mental illness. 

My sister had such a dog, but she loved it so much that she refused to give it back to the breeder who was horrified at all of the people it had attacked and begged to have it back.

So for 10 years my sister had a dog who attacked people, who had friends who would no longer visit, who had to pay a lot of money to find dog walkers, board her dog everytime someone came to visit, etc. 

The first time I ever visited her when she had this very expensive and adorable looking Portuguese Water Dog she simply told me to leave the dog alone, with no explanation.

So I did, although I loved dogs, and had never met one that didn't love me in return. It actually sat on my feet while I fixed a salad for dinner, followed me around looking at me adoringly as I set the table, and then came up and put his head in my lap while I was eating dinner with the family. 

I totally forgot the instructions to leave the dog alone by that time, and smiled down at it as my hand approached my lap. In less than a second it had my chair overturned biting me hard on the wrist with absolutely no warning, drawing blood and causing immense swelling. It was terrifying. Absolutely no warning at all.

They eventually had to add an expensive extension over their garage where the dog stayed when guests came. One time it got out. I won't even write about it.

They had the dog on prozac. After I watched it attack and shred a bush one time in her back yard, I told her I hoped she never left that dog with her step son. She replied that the dog loved him and would never hurt him. Within two months it had attacked him badly because he crawled to the TV to change the channel. My sister called sounding so sad. I found it very upsetting that she sounded more worried about the dog than her step-son.

Yikes, even remembering that dog is giving me anxiety. 
Go love your family and focus on healing for all of you


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Oh I didn't realize she would go back to the original breeder in Tenn. I'm sorry for that. I feel your pain but I am in agreement with you that you did everything and more than the average person would do.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

kontiki...wow and I think you are right, there are dogs that are wired wrong. As a child we had a gsd. He was fine with our immediate family but if my dad was around or even driving home he wanted nothing to do with anyone else. My dad always said it was bad breeding, at the time people wanted a white sgd, and would breed to a white, my dad said that he thought that altered the dog somehow. We got a 2nd one years later, same type of breeding, it was a cousin and he gave me a puppy. She was the same way. By that time I started driving and no one could approach my car she would be barking viciously with teeth snarled. We decided to have her spayed. It still wasn't popular at that time. I remember going to school and when I came home she had died. It was like a week after her spay. I remember my parents saying her tongue turned black and she just stopped breathing. I really don't know the facts but it was probably just as well as she would have hurt someone. WE all do what we must and its important to keep our family safe and if our immediate family is threatened by our "pet" can you imagine what could happen with a visitor or stranger. In todays world I would not want to take a chance.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Mufar42 said:


> Oh I didn't realize she would go back to the original breeder in Tenn. I'm sorry for that. I feel your pain but I am in agreement with you that you did everything and more than the average person would do.


The single person she was going to go to fell through. So now she will have to go back.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

I do think that some dogs just have a bad temperament. And that they should never be bred or they will pass it on. It is something that does get passed on. I’ve been doing some research. Breeders that don’t diversify enough tend to have more problems with this. So if you only want one color of dog, brown in this case, the pool of studs is pretty small, right?

On the other hand, breeders like Martha make sure to diversify very well. And she is VERY careful on temperament and also confirmation. It is why her dogs have the best temperament. 

This has been the biggest learning experience I could imagine.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

I did talk to AKC. The woman I spoke to (at length) was sympathetic but they just can’t do much, and you could tell she felt bad about that. They can look into her as a “breeder of merit” and ensuring she is following the protocol of testing and such. And I could write a letter outlining the situation but it will be filed and nothing more. Doesn’t seem right, does it?


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## Engel (Mar 31, 2019)

tammyw said:


> Mufar42 said:
> 
> 
> > tammyw said:
> ...


Sorry, I don't mean to pry but what's happened?


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Engel said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > Mufar42 said:
> ...


She is currently with a local breeder until she is able to go back to her own breeder in Tennessee. Is that what you mean?


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## Engel (Mar 31, 2019)

tammyw said:


> Engel said:
> 
> 
> > tammyw said:
> ...


Oh did she not get along well with your other dog(s)? Or was there a different reason?

I'd imagine it'd be a tough decision. When I bought Bella home we also had one of the others she lived with but unfortunately he had to go back as he didn't get on with my dogs and he became aggressive towards people. As we have young children visiting, it wouldn't have ended well if he stayed.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Engel said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > Engel said:
> ...


If you start at the beginning of this loooooong thread, it’s a crazy long story. But short of it is she became aggressive after her surgery - biting and attacking, and it was escalating. Then we realized she had always had anxiety issues.


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## Engel (Mar 31, 2019)

tammyw said:


> If you start at the beginning of this loooooong thread, it’s a crazy long story. But short of it is she became aggressive after her surgery - biting and attacking, and it was escalating. Then we realized she had always had anxiety issues.


oh dear. I'm sorry to hear this. Hopefully she is able to find a new home where someone can work with her. Like an adult only home, no other animals, someone with lots of experience with anxious dogs.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Ella is with the local breeder’s friend (the local breeder has young pups she had to take out and work with). Ella is doing well in the friend’s care but I don’t believe she can keep her permanently - older couple, no kids, one very old dog, and zero signs of aggression so far.

Want to know something interesting? Ella’s breeder isn’t even following up with the local breeder! I check in almost daily, yet Ella’s breeder clearly doesn’t care about what happens to her! I’m sickened by the whole thing. 

What kind of breeder does that? Has so little regard for her customers and the dogs she raised? It baffles my mind.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

tammyw said:


> Ella is with the local breeder’s friend (the local breeder has young pups she had to take out and work with). Ella is doing well in the friend’s care but I don’t believe she can keep her permanently - older couple, no kids, one very old dog, and zero signs of aggression so far.
> 
> Want to know something interesting? Ella’s breeder isn’t even following up with the local breeder! I check in almost daily, yet Ella’s breeder clearly doesn’t care about what happens to her! I’m sickened by the whole thing.
> 
> What kind of breeder does that? Has so little regard for her customers and the dogs she raised? It baffles my mind.


It’s probably for the best. This way the local breeder can keep her (maybe she’ll get attached) or find her a good home.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Dechi said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > Ella is with the local breeder’s friend (the local breeder has young pups she had to take out and work with). Ella is doing well in the friend’s care but I don’t believe she can keep her permanently - older couple, no kids, one very old dog, and zero signs of aggression so far.
> ...


I guarantee that’s what ella’s Breeder wants and so do I. I trust the local breeder. I do NOT trust ella’s Breeder.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

I am so incredibly mad. Ella’s breeder wants to resell Ella for $1000 and keep it for herself because “it costs more to raise a puppy than what I sell her for”.

I said “over my dead body”. She will not see Ella or another dime from her. We have found a perfect home for her, yet Ella’s breeder wants to get involved and I said NO WAY!!! I know she just wants to ask them for money. She is a criminal through and through.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

tammyw said:


> I am so incredibly mad. Ella’s breeder wants to resell Ella for $1000 and keep it for herself because “it costs more to raise a puppy than what I sell her for”.
> 
> I said “over my dead body”. She will not see Ella or another dime from her. We have found a perfect home for her, yet Ella’s breeder wants to get involved and I said NO WAY!!! I know she just wants to ask them for money. She is a criminal through and through.


Oh NO! I can't believe she wants to sell her. Well how can she get another $1000. for her since she already sold her to you!..I would just take the dog back and place her myself. As long as you didn't sign the dog over she is technically still yours. I don't know about the local breeder would she want money from you for keeping her, like boarding? Perhaps you can work out something between the two of you, maybe some type of gratuity for her that maybe her new home would be will to pay. Good lord this keeps getting worse


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

tammyw said:


> I am so incredibly mad. Ella’s breeder wants to resell Ella for $1000 and keep it for herself because “it costs more to raise a puppy than what I sell her for”.
> 
> I said “over my dead body”. She will not see Ella or another dime from her. We have found a perfect home for her, yet Ella’s breeder wants to get involved and I said NO WAY!!! I know she just wants to ask them for money. She is a criminal through and through.


That's terrible! I would be furious as well. But she is with the local breeder currently right?


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

ugh that makes me so mad, I can't imagine how its making you. I'd bring the dog home just long enough to turn her over to the new home you found for her. If I didn't have so many dogs I"d fly to wherever you are to get her away. LOL If that original breeder wants to give you your money then its technically her dog but otherwise she is yours. Too bad the local person doesn't seem to want to keep her.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

She is with the local breeder’s good friend. A retired couple came yesterday to meet her and they LOVE her. They want her. I’m just wanting to make sure there’s no issues with me giving her to them since our contract says we agree to give Ella back to her breeder. And she doesn’t really want Ella back but she does want to make MORE money on her. My mind is blown. I have never experienced this kind of poor ethics in my life.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Incredibly unethical and, how do I put this delicately, quite insane. So sorry she is putting you through all of this (and the poor local breeder too).


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Has the local breeder weighed in on this? I'd like to hear a good breeder's opinion.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Raindrops said:


> Has the local breeder weighed in on this? I'd like to hear a good breeder's opinion.


Yes! 100% in support of this. She’s been a true angel through all of this to be honest. So if anyone is looking for an amazing miniature poodle breeder in San Diego, I have someone!!


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

tammyw said:


> She is with the local breeder’s good friend. A retired couple came yesterday to meet her and they LOVE her. They want her. I’m just wanting to make sure there’s no issues with me giving her to them since our contract says we agree to give Ella back to her breeder. And she doesn’t really want Ella back but she does want to make MORE money on her. My mind is blown. I have never experienced this kind of poor ethics in my life.


She didn't fulfill her end of the contract. The contract shouldn't even exist anymore. So if you give her to someone else instead of retuning her to the breeder, it should't be an issue. I would have assumed all along the breeder would have sold her to get more money and she wouldn't have given you a penny because it seems that this is the kind of unethical person she is.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

the breeder sounds like more of a greeder. but maybe have someone check out your contract? you've already paid quite a bit and things could get pricier if this breeder tries to push for more $. hopefully you have kept all of your correspondence with her showing her unwillingness to take ella back and instead trying to blame you for doing things wrong. 

when i first got to pf i was told breeder of merit was essentially meaningless. i guess this breeder is one reason people say that. loser.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

patk said:


> the breeder sounds like more of a greeder. but maybe have someone check out your contract? you've already paid quite a bit and things could get pricier if this breeder tries to push for more $. hopefully you have kept all of your correspondence with her showing her unwillingness to take ella back and instead trying to blame you for doing things wrong.
> 
> when i first got to pf i was told breeder of merit was essentially meaningless. i guess this breeder is one reason people say that. loser.


I have all her texts, yes. 

Yes I’ve discovered the AKC breeder of merit is meaningless, unfortunately.

She still insists we are the problem since Ella hasn’t shown her aggressive side since she left our house.

I am going insane, honestly. This has been one of the biggest stressors in my entire life! And my husband was deployed to Iraq when our first child was born. We didn’t know if he would make it home because he was on the ground during the first weeks of the war and without supplies or communication. He didn’t meet her until she was several months old. And she was colicky!!!! THAT seems like a cake-walk next to what Ella’s breeder has put us through. The financial and emotional toll she has put us through has been brutal.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

hmmm. i wonder if you could keep ella and arrange a guardianship agreement with the couple that wants her and tell the breeder to get lost, as she is still technically your dog? still might need a bit of legal advice on that.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

tammyw said:


> She still insists we are the problem since Ella hasn’t shown her aggressive side since she left our house


It’s very much possible that you weren’t the right family for Ella, and that she won’t be aggressive anymore in another home.

It doesn’t mean it’s your fault ! I mean, you bought her from a supposedly good breeder, a breeder of merit. It’s a breeder’s job to analyse its puppie’s temperament and place them with a family well fitted to the dog’s need. A family where the dog will thrive, and humans will be happy having the dog as a companion. Especially when a puppy is more strong willed, has anxiety or other issues. 

So it’s totally HER fault. 100% HER fault. Not yours ! Did you tell her that ?


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Dechi said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> > She still insists we are the problem since Ella hasn’t shown her aggressive side since she left our house
> ...


We told her that and so did the local breeder. The local breeder said “you never should have placed a tiny and high strung dog into a busy family home”. I’ve told her time and time again that Ella had issues with anxiety and nervousness — she always just said “oh Ella is just bossy, don’t let her be bossy”.

I know it’s not our fault. The local breeder SAW how much Ella loves us and how much we love her (and how excruciating this has been). She knows it’s not our fault. ella’s Breeder just refuses to accept any responsibility.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

If the local breeder was out of the picture, would Ella's breeder even know if you rehomed the dog if you were no longer in contact with Ella's breeder? 

Or if you are just giving Ella to this couple and not making any money from giving Ella away, would the breeder even care? Sounds like she only wants to be involved if money is exchanged.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This situation is so unjust to you, your family, Ella, the local breeder, and the family that wants to give Ella a home!

I'm doing a bit of internet poking about how enforceable a breeder contract may be and I saw something promising. Are there any penalties spelled out in the contract should you not return Ella to the original breeder? If there are no penalties, it _may_ be unenforceable.

You'll definitely need legal advice, in for a penny and all that, but, honestly, unless there is some contractual type of consequence to you for not returning Ella, what can she do legally? You still are the legal owner and if you choose to give, not sell, Ella to another family, I'm not sure what her legal ground is. 

Maybe some members who have a contract with a "return to breeder" clause can comment on how theirs is worded?


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Rose n Poos said:


> This situation is so unjust to you, your family, Ella, the local breeder, and the family that wants to give Ella a home!
> 
> I'm doing a bit of internet poking about how enforceable a breeder contract may be and I saw something promising. Are there any penalties spelled out in the contract should you not return Ella to the original breeder? If there are no penalties, it _may_ be unenforceable.
> 
> ...


Good point. I don’t see anything that would indicate any particular consequences.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I think breeders began to include such a clause to ensure the dog is placed in a proper home when the original purchaser does not want the dog and wanted to turn over to a shelter. To avoid their pups ending up in a shelter they put in that clause. I'm not into law but I believe it is not enforceable as I think when you purchase a dog it is considered a "thing" like when you buy a toaster, it becomes yours you are responsible for it, if it bites someone the breeder isn't, you are responsible for its care not the breeder. So I do not think she can force you to return it unless she is offering a full refund. Otherwise the dog is yours to do with as you wish. I would just go ahead and rehome the dog and just tell the breeder you have worked your issues out and be done with her. Sometimes in life its best to just cut the cord. Anyway that is what I would do. I'd not correspond with he breeder any longer and to keep her friend the local breeder out of it, I'd take the dog back (with her blessing of course) I don't know if he is being paid anything to keep the dog..that could raise a issue so I would ask if she wishes to be compensated for keeping the dog. Then I'd cut my losses and be done.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Ella is in her new home! I met the retired couple, and they are perfect! They met Ella twice before taking her home (with extensive conversations with me and the local breeder plus her friend). They are previous poodle owners, retired, no other pets, know her previous issues with us (and know those issues may never show with them). They understand and adore her. And Ella was completely taken with the husband, just like she was with my husband. I’m no longer sad because I know she is going to a place that is a much better fit for her sensitive needs. And we will keep in touch with them and share in their happy journey with her. I’m thrilled for Ella, as we just wanted a good place for her because we love her more than anything!


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

That's great news for Ella! She sounds so much like our late Gracie, who immediately bonded with my dad.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Sending positive wishes for Ella with her new family


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Very nice ending, heartwarming to read. Happy for all concerned.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

In giving her to the new couple, we also gave them copies of her vet records. This was brought to our attention:

“Here's an interesting tidbit - Ella’s breeder took her to the vet on 1/30 with diarrhea and they put her on metronidazole (which can be very toxic) and gave her a rabies shot while she was sick!!!! NUTS!”

This was two days before we picked her up!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

tammyw said:


> In giving her to the new couple, we also gave them copies of her vet records. This was brought to our attention:
> 
> “Here's an interesting tidbit - Ella’s breeder took her to the vet on 1/30 with diarrhea and they put her on metronidazole (which can be very toxic) and gave her a rabies shot while she was sick!!!! NUTS!”
> 
> This was two days before we picked her up!



Ugh on that! I am very happy to see a good ending to this sad and distressing story.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I, glad you were able to find a loving appropriate home for her. 

I can’t believe a vet would give a vaccination to a dog I’ll enough to need an antibiotic. My dog takes metronidazole when her ulcerative colitis requires treatment, I never heard of it being toxic in the correct dose.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Skylar said:


> I, glad you were able to find a loving appropriate home for her.
> 
> I can’t believe a vet would give a vaccination to a dog I’ll enough to need an antibiotic. *My dog takes metronidazole when her ulcerative colitis requires treatment, I never heard of it being toxic in the correct dose*.


Same here, Skylar. We give it to our golden regularly, and have given it to other dogs in the past w/o any issues. 

However, I agree Ella never should have been given the rabies vaccine when she was sick! :angry:


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > I, glad you were able to find a loving appropriate home for her.
> ...


Only really toxic in large doses, but I think the comment was more about doing both together which is a definite no-no.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I am glad that Ella now has a home of her own and the you are happy with it. I do not believe metronidazole to be toxic, my dogs have used it at times for the last 20 years and none ever had a side effect. however I probably would not have given her a vaccination, though I am sure the vet knew , well hopefully what he was doing. It works really well for many issues.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I'm guessing the breeder pushed for the vaccination knowing Ella was being picked up and probably gave done excuse for her being sick. The vet still should not have given it, though.

Even with this new information, the breeder knew about her behaviors before this vet visit given how she talked about Ella when she was picked up.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Even though the breeder did tons of things wrong, I would 100% blame the vet for giving her the rabies vaccine when she was sick. A good vet would refuse to do that IMHO, no matter how much they were pressured.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Someone described our situation as “the perfect storm” and it just seems so fitting. At this point, i am emotionally comfortable with Ella going to a new house. It took us all a loooooooooong time to get there. Many tears, anger, and heartbreak, but what’s done is done and we have to move on. The financial side sucks (well over $4000 just in purchase price, vet fees, and travel costs) plus the emotional investment of four months with a dog we fell in love with — it will all have been worth it if our experience overall helps someone else with the process of getting a new dog.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I can't even imagine the emotional rollercoaster you and your family have been on, Tammy. It is very clear how much you and your family loved Ella. You made a very selfless decision for her. Thank you for sharing your story even though I know it has to be painful.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

This is a great ending (minus the financial loss). You must be so relieved !


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

tammyw i see that your thread on the breeder has been 'disappeared' by the powers that be. don't get too upset. if you read the forum rules, it becomes clear that pf has probably received cease and desist and other warnings from unhappy breeders - at least since i arrived, because i do believe that the rules have been rewritten to make clear that they can turn over all info they have on you if legally asked to do so. i am hoping this was a proactive action to keep you and others safe from that kind of retaliation by the breeder. hang in there and keep us in the loop re your new puppy.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

tammyw wanted to take it down.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

patk said:


> tammyw i see that your thread on the breeder has been 'disappeared' by the powers that be. don't get too upset. if you read the forum rules, it becomes clear that pf has probably received cease and desist and other warnings from unhappy breeders - at least since i arrived, because i do believe that the rules have been rewritten to make clear that they can turn over all info they have on you if legally asked to do so. i am hoping this was a proactive action to keep you and others safe from that kind of retaliation by the breeder. hang in there and keep us in the loop re your new puppy.


After a few people showed concern for my welfare, I decided to have it removed. After all we’ve been through, it wasn’t worth it for me to be a potential target of this breeder. I also suffered a personal tragedy when my oldest brother died yesterday after a painful battle with liver disease. While I don’t want anyone going through what we went through, life is too short to allow Ella’s breeder to further impact my life.

Thank you for the kind concern.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

tammyw I am sorry to hear of your brother's passing. All I around I wish you the most well deserved peace on all fronts.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

My deepest sympathies for your brother.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

so sorry for your loss.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

tammyw, so sorry about your brother. that on top of everything else is so difficult

when i logged in, i saw the title to your thread but not the actual thread. this has happened before when a thread has been pulled, so i assumed that the mods had taken it down on their own. i agree that you don't need the problems that could ensue. i do know there is a member/hobby breeder who badmouthed another breeder several times and received a cease and desist letter that probably went to pf as well. i think that case may be one reason the pf rules appear to me to have changed to state clearly that they can turn over all info on any of us if legally asked to do so. i can't prove it; i just suspect it to be true.

i hope your new pup will help you get past all the sadness you have gone through up till now and you will share a 52 weeks thread with us.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Condolences to you and your family, Tammy. I hope the new puppy your family will soon be getting will bring you all some joy.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

My sympathies to you and your family. Wishing you all strength and comfort in the days ahead.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Awww...I'm so very sorry for your loss. Condolences to your family during this very sad time.

I was glad to read of Ella's new home...sounds just right. Lots of good wishes coming your way with your next pup.


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

Deepest sympathies for your loss and I hope you continue to advocate for people looking for healthy and sane Poodles here. I think you can help some avoid the tragedy you had to go through. I think your safety and sanity come first now - we are many members here united trying to help newbies find wonderful companions, mainly and for the most part with wonderful breeders, who support us, but we will also call out those that have done damage (but we can do so in a pm so we don't get sued). Take time to heal.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

Moni said:


> Deepest sympathies for your loss and I hope you continue to advocate for people looking for healthy and sane Poodles here. I think you can help some avoid the tragedy you had to go through. I think your safety and sanity come first now - we are many members here united trying to help newbies find wonderful companions, mainly and for the most part with wonderful breeders, who support us, but we will also call out those that have done damage (but we can do so in a pm so we don't get sued). Take time to heal.


Absolutely I will advocate for good breeders! And I will completely watch the forum to help guide people in the right direction (or away from the wrong). I wouldn’t wish the heartbreak of having to rehome a dog they love on my worst enemy.


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