# Spayed Female Leaking Urine



## WJS (May 3, 2013)

My mpoo, Katie, has been leaking urine for quite some time. She did have a bladder infection at one point but now she is all clear but still leaks sometimes when sleeping. One vet suggested vitamin E because it has some relationship to estrogen or something and I thought it was working, but it isn't any more.

It's pretty much been narrowed down to her being a spayed female.

I'm ready to try something else. Has anyone treated their dog with estrogen for this problem? How did it work out? Any other suggestions? I'd like to solve this if possible.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

My spoo Sophie had a problem with leaking urine at night a few years ago. She was pretty old at that time -- maybe 13 or 14. I just looked over the notes I have from what we tried to do for her and the possiblities that we investigated are:

UTI -- treatment is antibiotics

Weak sphincter muscles which tend to relax when the dog is sleeping. This turned out not to be the problem with Sophie, but it is common with older dogs. Treatment is phenylpropanolamine (PPA) which is supposedly effective for dogs with bladder muscles that are relaxing when the dog sleeps. 

UTI or infection that is resistant to whatever antibiotics you are using. To find out what is happening, your vet needs to culture a urine sample. In Sophie's case, she turned out to have the pseudomonis bacteria--a bacteria that is resistant to many antibiotics. My vet prescribed a different antibiotic which seemed to cure her (although the problem did come back a while later).

My vet also did blood work. Not sure what that was showing him, or how/if it helped with the diagnosis and treatment.

Hope this helps.


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## WJS (May 3, 2013)

She has been thoroughly checked out for bladder infection recently and is all clear. She even had an ultrasound last year and the vet said she had a "lovely bladder." 

She is only 5, but I guess sometimes younger dogs can get weak sphincter muscles due to the lack of estrogen after being spayed although it's more common in older dogs. I'm just nervous about putting her on medication for it.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Hmmmm. That "lovely bladder" is leaking urine. And most 5-year-old spayed dogs don't have leaky bladders. I don't know anything about treating with estrogen, but I'm thinking you should get a second opinion from someone who has more qualifications than your average vet.

Are you near any vet schools? Or any specialized vets? If I had the problem and uncertainty that you describe, I'd be going to the internal medicine guys here: Metropolitan Veterinary Associates - Home Metro Vet is a veterinary practice of specialists only--no regular vet care. They saved my boy Bob's life. Is there any place like that near you? 

Of course with any vet, but especially specialists, you have to keep an eye on your wallet, and make sure that the steps that are recommended are really worth the cost.

Hope that you can get this figured out.


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## Debra J (Dec 8, 2012)

I have had two female poodles that have leaked after spaying. My first spoo (who is now gone) started leaking at about a year. She was a rescue so I do not know when she had her operation. I gave her proin for her entire life which took care of the problem. My mini Sukey that I have now started leaking about a month or two after she was neutered. The vet started her on prion and it did not work so started her on estrogen which did not work. After a lot of trials we have finally got her on proin every day and estrogen once a week. It sounds like a lot but my vet said it is the worst case she has worked with. The worst part was that my poor Sukey every time she leaked I could tell she was shamed even though I Did not make a big deal about it. The poor thing was leaking so bad that when i would pick her up sometimes she would leak right down my leg. Poodles are smart and know they should not do that. She has been on this program for about three years and doing very well. Good luck with your girl and am sure you will find solution.


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## WJS (May 3, 2013)

Thanks Debra. I think I'll call the vet tomorrow and see about getting her on proin or estrogen. Three different vets have come to the same conclusion so it's time to see if we can help her.

Now I'm nervous about having to get my tpoo spayed and having the same issue.


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## WJS (May 3, 2013)

peppersb, she's been seen by 3 different vets and they all finally came to the same conclusion. There is a university vet hospital 3 hours away, but I don't think they'd find anything different.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

That kind of almost helps me with the decision of not spaying Lou...

Im sorry you are going through this, I wish I had an answer, but I wish the best of luck in finding a solution 


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

WJS said:


> peppersb, she's been seen by 3 different vets and they all finally came to the same conclusion. There is a university vet hospital 3 hours away, but I don't think they'd find anything different.


WJS -- Sounds like you've already gotten enough advice from vets. With all 3 vets coming to the same conclusion, I agree that there's no point in going to the university. BTW proin is the same thing as the phenylpropanolamine (PPA) that I mentioned earlier.

I am so sorry that you have to deal with this, especially in such a young dog.



Lou said:


> That kind of almost helps me with the decision of not spaying Lou...


Lou-- 3 weeks of bleeding every 6 to 8 months is not a lot of fun! (Of course it would be worth it is the alternative was incontinence.)


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Ive been so scared of it anyway :-( so this thread just reinforces my fear kind of, you know? 
I feel sad that this is happening, hope everything gets better soon


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## Agidog (Jun 4, 2012)

Often Bitches who "leak" urine are doing so because they have a small pouch at base of vulva and if there is an anatomical defect they will urinate and some will collect in this pouch and then when they sit or lay down it oozes out giving impression they have actually 'wet'. so this is one thing needing to be checked

Other aspects are related to spaying and they actually get a particular condition related to the ligaments/muscles that support the bladder which are stretched during the removal of the ovaries and uterus, often a laparoscopic repair is possible to correct this problem.

There are bitches britches which are small bikini type pants for use with panty liner inside to help absorb the output but must be removed periodically for actual correct toileting.


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## Agidog (Jun 4, 2012)

*spaying /neutering versus leaving intact*

For anyone considering spaying or neutering have a read of this article to be absolutely clear on everything.
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/earlyspayconsiderations.pdf


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I have had great results using this on my spayed bitches. I even give it to anyone with a UTI as it seems to help them recover faster. 

Nutri-Vet Bladder Control Chewable Supplement for Dogs | PetFoodDirect


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## WJS (May 3, 2013)

I might try that. I'm still kind of reluctant to medicate her for life.

Agidog, having glanced through that article, I may delay spaying my tpoo until she is older. 

I had a mixed breed dog years ago that I didn't spay and she died of mammary gland cancer at 11. Otherwise she was a very healthy dog, so I kind of felt like it was my fault for not having her spayed, but who knows?


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have had female dogs all my life and never had any problems at all. Just throwing that out there. I think this is very rare. Hope you get it fixed.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

Theres a 20% chance of a female altered dog getting urinary spay incontinence. Thats 1 in 5. Temperance has it. After trial and error I had her stabilized on des 1x per week. She started leaking again and is on des 1x per week and half dose of proin in pm. This seems to be working.


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

faerie said:


> Theres a 20% chance of a female altered dog getting urinary spay incontinence. Thats 1 in 5. Temperance has it. After trial and error I had her stabilized on des 1x per week. She started leaking again and is on des 1x per week and half dose of proin in pm. This seems to be working.


That's a large percentage... Is there research to prove that?

I mostly have had male dogs, but I did rescue one female GSD, who had been spayed... She never had an incontinence problem, but died of lymphoma years later...


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

Lou said:


> Ive been so scared of it anyway :-( so this thread just reinforces my fear kind of, you know?
> I feel sad that this is happening, hope everything gets better soon


The problem with the internet, is that you only hear about it, when things go wrong... why write about something that went right?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

faerie said:


> Theres a 20% chance of a female altered dog getting urinary spay incontinence. Thats 1 in 5. Temperance has it. After trial and error I had her stabilized on des 1x per week. She started leaking again and is on des 1x per week and half dose of proin in pm. This seems to be working.


Wow. I just couldn't believe that the incidence was as high as 20%, so I googled it. Apparently one study did find that the incidence was 20%. But another study found that it was 4%. And a third study found something in between. Here's a very good survey of the medical reasons for and against spay/neuter. It includes references to those 3 studies.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Here's what the above review says about urinary incontinence:

"Urinary incontinence is common in spayed female dogs, which can occur soon after spay surgery or after a delay of up to several years. The incidence rate in various studies is 4-20% for spayed females compared to only 0.3% in intact females38. Urinary incontinence is so strongly linked to spaying that it is commonly called “spay incontinence” and is caused by urethral sphincter incompetence, though the biological mechanism is unknown. Most (but not all) cases of urinary incontinence respond to medical treatment, and in many cases this treatment needs to be continued for the duration of the dog’s life."


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

well, i got the info from dr. google and i read up to 20%. 

all i know is my spayed female has it. i have 2 other spayed females who don't and one who is not spayed.

i beat myself up for a long time for spaying temperance too young. i will never spay so young again. however, i do support spaying and neutering if the dogs are not to be used in a breeding program. i just believe delayed spaying is best.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Lou, there are risks to any kind of medical procedure or treatment. There can be adverse reactions to vaccines, medicines, etc. There can be risks from surgeries. However, epidemiological data give pretty clear information about the risks versus the benefits of many of these decisions. Procedures that are commonplace are those for which the benefits clearly outweigh the risks. 

The benefits of spaying and neutering far outweigh the risks. My childhood dog was an unspayed beagle bitch who ended up with terrible mammary tumors. Throughout her life we had to deal with the mess of heat and the unwanted attentions of intact males who could smell her from the furthest corners of the neighborhood. Having them lurking around was not fun. Unless you plan to breed I hope you will get Lou spayed soon. It is in the interest of her health and your sanity that I suggest this.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

lily cd re said:


> Lou, there are risks to any kind of medical procedure or treatment. There can be adverse reactions to vaccines, medicines, etc. There can be risks from surgeries. However, epidemiological data give pretty clear information about the risks versus the benefits of many of these decisions. Procedures that are commonplace are those for which the benefits clearly outweigh the risks.
> 
> The benefits of spaying and neutering far outweigh the risks. My childhood dog was an unspayed beagle bitch who ended up with terrible mammary tumors. Throughout her life we had to deal with the mess of heat and the unwanted attentions of intact males who could smell her from the furthest corners of the neighborhood. Having them lurking around was not fun. Unless you plan to breed I hope you will get Lou spayed soon. It is in the interest of her health and your sanity that I suggest this.


lily cd re, thank you for your post. I am thinking/learning about it a lot... I appreciate all the info and comments.

Thank u


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I know you love Lou very much and you are careful and thoughtful in your decision making about her well being. Having good information is key in any big decision.

To explain my perspective a bit, I am a college biology professor and the main course I teach is microbiology. I end up spending lots of time explaining why childhood and veterinary vaccines are very important to public health. Much of my thinking on many issues reflects my bias in this area.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

This is a take on post-spaying incontinence that's new to me. Thought I'd share it here.
URINARY INCONTINENCE IN DOGS - NATURAL TREATMENT - PART 2 Dr. Dobias Healing Solutions


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

this is an interesting thread. just one question. has anyone determined whether the quality of the veterinary surgeon has anything to do with the result? for human beings, surgeons are specialists. for dogs, it seems any vet is empowered to do surgery of this kind. just wondering if the surgeon matters.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would think the quality of the surgeon is important. However since most small animal vets do lots of general surgeries like spays and neuters I think one could take a good measure of the vet as a surgeon from one's experience in the exam room with him or her.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

possibly i am a bit too cautious, but after reading through many threads on this forum and finding that even breeders of multiple champions have many flaws, i am not convinced that bedside manner/how a vet appears to treat one's dog during an exam relates to surgical skill. my current vet is someone i've worked with for over 10 years. but i would not let him do exploratory surgery on my female lowchen. he knew before suggesting surgery he would not be able to change anything - he just wanted to know for sure what was going on. i told him it was a quality of life issue for my dog versus the scientist in him. kind of brought him up short, but he agreed. my dog lived 18 months longer than my vet predicted she would - long enough to give my mother daily companionship before my mother passed away. i am convinced my dog held on because she knew my mother needed her, but i could be wrong about that, too. probably we should do as much "vetting" of our vets as we do of breeders before deciding on which hands to put our animals' lives into. but i have no idea how one determines surgical skill except based on word of mouth.


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