# Poppy Liver Failure - confirmed as chronic



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Poppy’s test results are now in, and there is no real improvement, so we are dealing with chronic liver failure. It was the most probable outcome, but one always hopes for another small miracle. Some elements are now within normal range, but others, including those from the bile acid stim test, are very high. The vet reckons the diarrhoea she has had recently could be because of her liver or could be sensitive tummy, so we will try a few days of the paste and hope for improvement. He also recommends reducing the steroids fractionally, which I am hoping will help reduce the side effects. So no worse, but not as much better as I had hoped…

But, as he said, she is very happy, and that is the most important thing. 

It all started here: Poppy still unwell
and continued here: Poppy liver failure - goodish news


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Oh dear. I'd hoped for better news. I hope you can keep her comfortable and stable.


----------



## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I am very sorry to hear this.  She is so lucky to have you...you give her such a good life.


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

As I say Love them and let them live their best lives it's all you can do.


----------



## EVpoodle (Sep 25, 2018)

I am very sorry to hear this. She is very lucky to have you as an owner.


----------



## Vee (Mar 2, 2018)

Sorry to hear this ☹ ((hugs)) she is blessed to have you.


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I am so sorry. I love hearing from Poppy. She is a special girl. I hope you are able to keep her comfortable and happy.


----------



## Getting ready (May 4, 2019)

Oh no. Poor Poppy and family.


----------



## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

So sorry


----------



## Whoiscoconut (May 11, 2020)

So sorry to hear the bad news.


----------



## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

So sorry to hear that. Poor darling Poppy!


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

twyla said:


> As I say Love them and let them live their best lives it's all you can do.


I'm so sorry, for you and Poppy. I had hoped it was a temporary health issue that resolved. 

By chronic does this mean you can manage it?


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I'm so happy to hear she's happy. I hope you're managing okay.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am hoping we can manage it for a reasonable length of time. It is a balancing act - the liver regenerates, so if the regeneration can keep pace with deterioration, and anything that causes further damage avoided, she could have a good quality of life for quite a long time. She has been far better in the last few months than I would have dared to hope back in January, so we will keep on keeping on. She is 11 years old, which is not old for a toy but means she has already had a good life. I will do everything I can to make however long we have, whether it be months or years, equally happy. Time enough to grieve when there is no more to be done. But some sadness is inevitable - she has been so well that I hoped for more positive news.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Aww I am sorry that you didn't have better findings, but happy nothing is truly worse. I hope she has many many happy days, weeks, months...Your attitude about it is loving and special.


----------



## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

(Hugs) It‘s really sad that it’s chronic, but I’m glad to hear she’s happy, and nothing’s gotten worse. May you and Poppy have many, many more days of happiness together.


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Aw.... I was hoping for a more promising diagnosis. I am sorry. At least you know now, I guess. 

Poor Poppy. Luckily, all she really knows is you give her lots of very special foods many times a day and are very careful about making sure meals are on time!


----------



## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Poppy is blessed to have you and you are blessed to have Poppy. I'm sorry it's not the news you wanted to hear. I know that the two of you will continue your lives together giving and receiving love. Tell Poppy Click loves her. Gentle hugs.


----------



## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

So sorry.


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I'm so sorry to hear this. I was really hoping for the best news, but I'm so happy that Poppy has you as her owner and you have done the best for her, and that she is very happy. Please tell her we love her and to be happy and strong💗


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Hugs from Houston! You’re going to have happy walks, scrummy treats and many more adventures together.


----------



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Oh no, I’m so sorry to hear this. Poppy has a good life with you and I’m sure she’ll continue to be happy, as you provide such good care for her. Hugs to you both. xxx


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thank you all for your support. It is good to know that there are so many people who understand. The vet is giving me 1mg prednidale to make it easier to reduce the dose slightly "but it will mean two tablets instead of one". I told him Poppy woud be delighted - an extra chunk of chicken! It does help that so far the disease has not impinged on her quality of life - she is happy and hungry and full of bounces at the prospect of treats, and completely oblivious to any problems. I, on the other hand, live with the clutch of anxiety at every sign of possible lethargy, or tummy upset, or wobbliness - is it a turn for the worse, or something minor and unconnected. It is something that will be familiar to all who love elderly animals, or those with chronic conditions...


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I too was hoping for more promising news but there's still much to look forward to. Poppy will bounce and chase as only Poppy can, with a joy in life we should all be so lucky to live.


----------



## Suchi (Apr 1, 2015)

I am very sorry that your'e going through this. I was talking to one of my friends just yesterday who has a standard poodle from the same litter as ours. Both her poodle and ours are going through issues. Her dog's liver enzymes were elevated, she found that the supplement Sam-E could help. She started giving it to her dog and says that her fur daughter is doing much better and has gained weight and eating well. I just wanted share, in case if it helps.My friend's poodle's ALT was v close to 1000, not sure about Poppy's numbers, just want to put it our there. Good luck and wish you both the best.


----------



## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> Poppy’s test results are now in, and there is no real improvement, so we are dealing with chronic liver failure. It was the most probable outcome, but one always hopes for another small miracle. Some elements are now within normal range, but others, including those from the bile acid stim test, are very high. The vet reckons the diarrhoea she has had recently could be because of her liver or could be sensitive tummy, so we will try a few days of the paste and hope for improvement. He also recommends reducing the steroids fractionally, which I am hoping will help reduce the side effects. So no worse, but not as much better as I had hoped…
> 
> But, as he said, she is very happy, and that is the most important thing.
> 
> ...


Sorry to have missed this post, I haven’t received the alert 
You mentioned that slim test included a high fat meal. I know in people, such test is to check the function of gallbladder. But the high fat meal could definitely cause diarrhea and more. 
Try not to loose hope. It’s sad truth about chronic liver failure, but Poppy is of wise age and still trying to keep on her own. You are trying to help her, Poppy senses that and is trying to be optimistic. I’m sure I’m not alone, who sends prayers and positive energy to you and both girls. Hang on dear!


----------



## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> I am hoping we can manage it for a reasonable length of time. It is a balancing act - the liver regenerates, so if the regeneration can keep pace with deterioration, and anything that causes further damage avoided, she could have a good quality of life for quite a long time. She has been far better in the last few months than I would have dared to hope back in January, so we will keep on keeping on. She is 11 years old, which is not old for a toy but means she has already had a good life. I will do everything I can to make however long we have, whether it be months or years, equally happy. Time enough to grieve when there is no more to be done. But some sadness is inevitable - she has been so well that I hoped for more positive news.


FJM, 
Your hopes for better news were only natural. Based on what you described, Poppy was truly doing as good as could’ve been expected. You’ve had some pretty goodish times together. If she looks happy, then she is. Having dogs, we all know, that even with the healthiest ones, anything can go wrong at any time, just like with people. It’s sad that the vet pronounced her diagnosis. Often, not knowing is a bliss. But you are the only one, who knows. If you can manage not to let on ( cause dogs sense our moods; sometimes it feels like they can read our minds), which is a toll order to achieve, Poppy will continue being happy. Look at her and absorb each happy moment, each happy day. You are much stronger than it feels at the moment. You need each other, and Sofie with Slim, need both of you. Write to all of us or to someone to n particular; don’t hold your sadness inside. Write about anything you feel or experience, every day. I’m sure quite a few of us will be glad to support both of you with our thoughts, prayers and good wishes. Sometimes, when you share things with someone or others, things don’t feel as bad or as sad. We’ll keep on keeping you, keeping going on.
Tender hugs to you, girls and Slim.


----------



## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Oh no ...but hope for you and Poppy that there are more special times ahead.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks Suchi - my vets put her onto a Sam-E supplement back when it all began in January, and she has been on it ever since. It is more than possibly one of the things that is keeping her so well, and I too would highly recommend it. Poppy's is Denamarin, which contains both Sam-E and silybin.

The diarrhoea was not clearing (and I am sure you are right Mick - a non-functionng bile system, a high fat meal and stress would be enough to trigger it in anyone), so I took her over to the vets yesterday afternoon and picked up metronidazole and more digestive paste. It was pouring with rain, and the poor vets were getting soaked giving advice and reassurance to all us owners who stayed safe and dry inside our cars. I felt I should offer them my pop up gazebo...

Meanwhile Poppy is bouncing with joy - _more_ scrummy medicine! And I am more relaxed now that I have processed the news. A very wise neighbour has a mantra: "It is what it is, and we will deal with it", and that is what I shall do, continuing to make every day as happy as possible.


----------



## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> Thanks Suchi - my vets put her onto a Sam-E supplement back when it all began in January, and she has been on it ever since. It is more than possibly one of the things that is keeping her so well, and I too would highly recommend it. Poppy's is Denamarin, which contains both Sam-E and silybin.
> 
> The diarrhoea was not clearing (and I am sure you are right Mick - a non-functionng bile system, a high fat meal and stress would be enough to trigger it in anyone), so I took her over to the vets yesterday afternoon and picked up metronidazole and more digestive paste. It was pouring with rain, and the poor vets were getting soaked giving advice and reassurance to all us owners who stayed safe and dry inside our cars. I felt I should offer them my pop up gazebo...
> 
> Meanwhile Poppy is bouncing with joy - _more_ scrummy medicine! And I am more relaxed now that I have processed the news. A very wise neighbour has a mantra: "It is what it is, and we will deal with it", and that is what I shall do, continuing to make every day as happy as possible.


Forgive my questions, but I didn’t hear on this site de of the pond about Poppy’s Sam-E, and it’s ingredients, nor have I heard of or know about the digestive paste. If and when you are able to explain, I’d appreciate it. Maybe it’s a EU meds. or I just never heard of it in US. Your neighbor‘s mantra is the same as my brother’s. But till you must deal with it, try to enjoy Poppy’s bouncing joy, even if it’s about yummy medicine or asking for a bit more food. Her sunny personality, might carry both of you for a quite a while. There are times I wish people were more like dogs. One day at a time, just like you’ve done since January, but look how far you’ve gone! Whatever you are doing for her, works. She trusts and love you, she’ll try to fight it as far and long as this little bounce of happiness can. Warmest thoughts about both of you and a prayer. Will try to be on the look out for your posts.


----------



## LoveMyRedToyPoodle (Sep 15, 2019)

I'm so sorry for sweet Poppy and for your family. Sending hugs and love.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

This is the supplement she is on: Denamarin The digestive paste is one of many similar preparations - this one is typical: LOGIC Firm Digestive Support for Cats and Small Dogs: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies

I am always wary of using OTC preparations like this for more than a day or two except under veterinary advice, lest they mask symptoms of some serious underlying problem, but they can be a useful standby to have in the cupboard.


----------



## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> This is the supplement she is on: Denamarin The digestive paste is one of many similar preparations - this one is typical: LOGIC Firm Digestive Support for Cats and Small Dogs: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies
> 
> I am always wary of using OTC preparations like this for more than a day or two except under veterinary advice, lest they mask symptoms of some serious underlying problem, but they can be a useful standby to have in the cupboard.


Thank you very much for your time, providing the information.
My Sasha is standard poodle and turned 10 at the end of April. I still can’t believe it. It seems like we just brought this 11 mos. old, dog for a trial of adaption, but as it turned out, we saved from psychological and a form of physical abuse. Her playmate, identical peach color, miniature, wasn’t as lucky. The owner didn’t give her up for an adaption, but left her with an irresponsible, young relative, who left the house door open and, as the result, dog ran out on the street and was killed by a car. Sasha has her share of psychological issues (scared of everything, skittish, severe separation anxiety, and possible depression, since I became disabled). Per vet’s recommendation, we use Composure Pro chewables, by Vetri Science Pro Line, available on Amazon.com. It helps to a degree. But with anxiety, come gastric issues, plus her allergies to chicken, salmon, and any anti-inflammatorues, also display as gastro symptoms. 
She can’t tolerate neither anti-flea topicals, nor heart guard, without having to take Carafate before and after each of the preparations. But the worst problem is she also gets sevacuous cysts and multiple warts. I can deal with the cysts, but warts are stubborn and growing more. Our vet recommends ONLY surgical cauterization, but that requires sedation, which for 10 yrs. standard isn’t safe, cost is prohibitive, but removing existing ones, doesn’t prevent the next batch from growing. 
I tried to dry them up with Iodine tincture. The upper portion dries, but the bottom, from inside the skin continue growing. I tried Vick’s and highly recommended Vit. E, but neither one helps. Thank you again, for the detailed information. If it’s available only on Amazon.uk.com, I may not be able to purchase it, but w/try to find out and discussit with our vet. Big hug to you, girls and Slim.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Yes, Poppy's sebaceous cysts/warts are getting bigger. Vet checked them and said just to leave them alone, so although they are unattractive I don't worry about them any more.

Poor Sasha sounds to have had a difficult time - how lucky he was to have found you, and now be loved and understood. And I know just what you mean about the years flying - Poppy is the baby of the family, and suddenly she is 11 - how did that happen?!


----------



## PixieDust (Jun 19, 2020)

Hugs to you and Poppy...this hits close to home as I lost my 14 year old goldendoodle in January due to a slow growing liver tumor. She was diagnosed Sept 2019 and it was a shock as her symptoms were weight loss, confusion/anxiety when the daily schedule wasn't followed and some shakiness in the hind end - all normal senior symptoms. Still had normal (even increased) appetite, tons of energy and interest in everything otherwise. We just took what time we had to make her final days/months special for her as she was the Best Dog Ever.

One thing I did do for her right after diagnosis was give her Milk Thistle supplements - 3 150 mg capsules with 60% silymarin each day. That really helped with the confusion (because the toxins the liver would normally take care of don't flush out, they build up in the brain) and the hind end shakiness. She even gained a bit of weight back. I highly recommend it - not a cure but help with symptom management. Becausebof it, we got to have 4 great months together.

We lost the battle in late January when the tumor metastasized to her nasal cavity and she started bleeding from her nose but she had great appetite and energy right until the 2nd last day. We had a wonderful caring mobile vet come and she passed peacefully at home with her doodle sister and best cat friend. 

Long way of saying - try the milk thistle, it does help.

I hope you get the same opportunity to give your loving companion Poppy some wonderful final days and memories you can carry forever. ❤ It was a bittersweet time for me but one I cherish.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks PixieDust. Poppy is on Denamarin, which includes silybin/silymarin - good to know you found it effective. I have noticed rear end ditheriness and weakness, which I had hoped were down to the steroids, but with this latest set of results fear it may be neurological from the toxins. But for now she is happy, eating well, and managing not too strenuous walks - there is much to be grateful for.


----------



## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Hugs


----------



## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> Yes, Poppy's sebaceous cysts/warts are getting bigger. Vet checked them and said just to leave them alone, so although they are unattractive I don't worry about them any more.
> 
> Poor Sasha sounds to have had a difficult time - how lucky he was to have found you, and now be loved and understood. And I know just what you mean about the years flying - Poppy is the baby of the family, and suddenly she is 11 - how did that happen?!


Sasha is a female 
Not knowing any better at 4 mos, when the original owners got her, having mature miniature in the house, Sasha learned from the miniature, and had to be #2, for food, water, attention. They had her for total of 7 months. But when the fluffy puppy turned into teenager and became bigger than miniature, but jumping up as miniature, the owners were locking her in a wire cage type kennel, inside walk in closet. She never walks into the dark room, never, even with the snacks and training, will attempt to open an ajar door or try to walk through it. She’s been 9 with us, but still thinks she is a miniature dog. 
The townhome where we adopted her from, had Snow White carpets, with 2 dogs living there; how’s that possible? Sasha had no idea how to walk the stairs, never being allowed to go upstairs. 
She took to training like the duck to the water, but the fears that were instilled, we can’t erase. Our first standard was black. We got her from a breeder, who interviewed us, taught us a lot about care for standards and even recommended the trainer, who came over and helped wit the basic commands. The first standard was black and almost the complete opposite personality of Sasha. She was my girl-ftriend, especially, when I first got injured. I guess, now, that Sasha is 10, I’m becoming more anxious and more attuned to her age-related symptoms.
Thank you for listening and understanding.


----------



## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Darn, I had hoped for something easily fixable, as I am sure you had also. I can tell there is so much love between you. I am so very glad you have each other.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I'm so sorry to read this update, FJM, it wasn't the news any of us hoped for. You must have been heartbroken leaving the vet. But as I read through your posts, I can see your resilience over the week, as you adjusted to the news. And Poppy, of course, only knows she gets more delicious food and, I'm guessing, a little extra attention.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I had a reassuring meeting with Poppy's vet today. We were able to use the open barn at the surgery to talk, which made it rather more relaxed - the last visit was in the car park in pouring rain! Poppy has been suffering from diarrhoea on and off for the last few weeks, and I wanted advice on dealing with that as well as a general where-are-we-and-where-do-we-go-from-here discussion. He says that she is remarkably well, and that dogs with her level of disease can live happily and comfortably for several years - as she is already 11 that would mean a near normal life span. He's given me several months supply of Metrobactin with advice on using it only when absolutely necessary, and reassured me that I can use the OTC digestive paste as required. I think I may look for a good pre and pro-biotic for her - not kefir, because of its alcohol content, but other recommendations gratefully received!

Next appointment in three months, so she is definitely not considered to be on the danger list!


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I had to put Pogo on antibiotics, and the vet prescribed Purina Calming Care probiotic to try to reduce the gut upset. I don't know if this is the best product or just the one he had on hand


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks - did it help Pogo? I have been reading up about probiotics and am now suffering from TMI. What with too little and too much but in the wrong place causing similar symptoms, all the different strains and what they can and can't do, and the general ineffectiveness of many of the products my brain is reeling... I know the only time I tried the capsules myself I felt a lot worse! 

Vet recommended fibre, especially good old pumpkin, so perhaps I should start with what I already have in the cupboard...


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I am so happy to hear the vet say that she is doing well. (Hugs)💗


----------



## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

I had missed this original post, but this latest update has a lightness to it that made me so happy for you and Poppy. Sounds like you have some idea of where things are at and have what you need to keep her comfortable. Hoping you get a couple more years together. Hugs to you all.


----------



## pudelgirl (Mar 30, 2017)

I’ve been following Poppy’s journey. Sad to hear her condition is chronic but happy she’s currently living well.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

And after a dose of Metrobac she did a nice firm poo first thing this morning! The second one of the day is the real proof of improvement, but even one is a good start.

Anyone else find themselves jotting down number and consistency of dog poo in their online calendar...?!


----------



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I’m glad to hear the news. You’re taking great care of Poppy, she’s a lucky girl !



fjm said:


> Anyone else find themselves jotting down number and consistency of dog poo in their online calendar...?!


Ha Ha ! Yes, I have it in the form of a journal, along with other delightful details.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I keep a smile log  I discovered last year that sometimes the only indication I have of how Mia is feeling is how much she smiles. When Mia feels good, I get many long, happy, smiles -- sometimes mischievous grins as she runs off with a toy hoping that I'll follow. But when Mia feels under the weather, she smiles less, and less broadly. It can be a subtle change, but the only indication I'll get.

So I keep a smile log, which I suppose is a kind of poo log, but not yet a lou log, which is a different kind of poo log.


----------



## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

A smile log? That’s amazing. It’s proof how expressive poodle’s faces can be! 

I make a weekly note with the details of each day on my phone for Lacey since I’ve brought her home. It includes times she: pees, poops and their size and firmness, meal amount and any special notes, walks and distance, grooming stuff like brushing/nails/face trim/baths/etc medications, or anything out of the ordinary like throwing up. 

I’m kind of anal and am into lists and notes so I can keep track of things. I think that’s important to do with a puppy, but I’ll probably continue doing it for the rest of her life. It’s a great way to ensure things are running smoothly and to have details for the vet if they aren’t.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have found it particularly useful to be able to make a summary log of what I have observed to give to the vet during these upset times. Usually there would be plenty of time to take a detailed history (and even for that notes of dates and times are invaluable), but when the rain is dripping down your neck and you cannot accompany your dog into the examination room a written summary of all the things you want the vet to know is very helpful. And for that I need to be able to refer back to the notes I have made over the preceding weeks... It is a valuable habit to keep up, I think.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

fjm. I'm thrilled to read your latest update that Poppy has several more years living happy. 

Yes, poop quality is a daily discussion in our house with notes taken when things are out of whack. You're right - I keep notes on my google calendar. It's easy to look back and see trends and gather data for the vet.


----------



## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> Thanks - did it help Pogo? I have been reading up about probiotics and am now suffering from TMI. What with too little and too much but in the wrong place causing similar symptoms, all the different strains and what they can and can't do, and the general ineffectiveness of many of the products my brain is reeling... I know the only time I tried the capsules myself I felt a lot worse!
> 
> Vet recommended fibre, especially good old pumpkin, so perhaps I should start with what I already have in the cupboard...


So happy to hear that your vet gave you an optimistic prognosis, instead of just stating the diagnosis.
Sasha loves good old canned pumpkin ~ 1-2 tsp. added to morning portion of kibble+ some water. Hope that Poppy will find it a tasty addition to her food. 
We’ve been giving Sasha 1-2 tsp. of fat-free, Greek yogurt, at bed-time. She loves it.
However, reading about comparative benefits between yougurt and kefir, I found out the following: there over 30 different strains of good bacteria contained in kefir along with vitamin B complex, vitamin A, D and K as well as calcium, phosphorus and magnesium minerals.
*Yogurt* contains *transient bacteria, which will not repopulate* the *digestive* tract, but the active, growing, living cultures in *kefir *will*. *
I never knew about alcohol in kefir. Reading your post, I went back to the net. I found the following explanation by one of the creameries ( Green Valley), making lactose-free and how they insure that their kefir does not contain alcohol. Alcohol is created through the fermentation of yeast. Traditionally, kefir was made with kefir grains, a blend of yeasts and cultures, which would result in a beverage with low alcohol levels. To this day, in some areas in Europe, this is a common practice. Since we do not want alcohol in our Kefir, we use a blend of cultures that only contain live active cultures. Our kefir is therefore free of alcohol.
So, you might have an option, though lactose-free kefir costs more. But that’s a personal preference. 
Regarding the probiotics, reading through the unbelievable amount of conflicting information on the net gave me a headache, so I stopped for a while. But recently, I stumbled on the following article: 6 Best Probiotics for Dogs With Diarrhea and Allergies Rated
I almost gave up reading, when the following probiotic caught my eye: VetriScience Laboratories Probiotic Everyday Dogs Bite-Sized Soft Chews.
We already use the anti-anxiety product by this company: Vetri Science Composure Pro chews. It’s the only product that helps our dog with her separation anxiety.
So, we are thinking about getting their probiotic 1/daily + supplement it with lactose-free, low fat, kefir or continue w/Greek-style, plain, fat-free yogurt.



fjm said:


> Thanks - did it help Pogo? I have been reading up about probiotics and am now suffering from TMI. What with too little and too much but in the wrong place causing similar symptoms, all the different strains and what they can and can't do, and the general ineffectiveness of many of the products my brain is reeling... I know the only time I tried the capsules myself I felt a lot worse!
> 
> Vet recommended fibre, especially good old pumpkin, so perhaps I should start with what I already have in the cupboard...


So happy to hear that vet gave you an optimistic prognosis.
Regarding the probiotics, reading through the unbelievable amount of conflicting information on the net is giving me a headache. We’ve been feeding Sasha with 1-2 tsps. of fat free, plain, Greek yogurt, before bed time. She absolutely loves it! We also add ~ 1 tbsp. of pumpkin to her morning kibble, and she fell in love with good old pumpkin.
I grew up drinking kefir, but


----------



## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> I have found it particularly useful to be able to make a summary log of what I have observed to give to the vet during these upset times. Usually there would be plenty of time to take a detailed history (and even for that notes of dates and times are invaluable), but when the rain is dripping down your neck and you cannot accompany your dog into the examination room a written summary of all the things you want the vet to know is very helpful. And for that I need to be able to refer back to the notes I have made over the preceding weeks... It is a valuable habit to keep up, I think.


I’m probably the worst, detail oriented record keeper: each feeding- which food and /or medicine/supplement; 
each poo/pee/walk, when how much, what consistency; each grooming - any issues, each sebaceous cyst, sebaceous adenoma, is drawn on the picture diagram, provided by vet. Then, if there is any pattern or issues, it’s easier to notice, as well, as provide the summary to the vet. As the fur baby gets older, there is higher probability of various issues. This way, it’s easier to share with vet when did a symptom(s) began, how long the growth had been there, or any behavioral clues, like licking paws, scratching the hot spot, etc.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I bet your vet appreciates your careful record keeping Mick, especially at the moment, when they are having to take a history out of doors and examine the dog without the owner present. It is hard to concentrate when a cold wind is whipping round and rain trickling down the back of your neck, which is the sort of weather we have been having for the past month! Another big advantage of tracking changes is that it enables you to see improvements s well as declines - Poppy went from walking a hundred yards to a mile and a half, in tiny increments each day The day I was able to log a total of 2.5 miles in two walks, with her still bouncy and happy as we got back to the car, was a very reassuring one.

That is interesting about the kefir - I was looking at home made, but might now look at what is available online. Fortunately Poppy loves pumpkin - she will happily lick it off the spoon. It can be quite difficult to find canned pumpkin here in the UK but a can goes a very long way frozen in tiny servings, and I still have several from the half dozen a friend grabbed for me when they briefly appeared in her local supermarket. And again, it is possible to buy it online, or be more economical and microwave a butternut squash. My sisters (we are bubbling for 24 hours - it has been lovely!) giggled at Poppy's supper dish, a smorgasbord of canned hepatic food, cooked chicken, pumpkin and a squeeze of digestive paste, which looks exactly like chocolate sauce! On extra special occasions I add a sprinkling of tiny home made treats, just to complete the knickerbocker glory effect.


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

fjm, I have a poop calendar for my cat Walter Grey, he has Megacolon to say he has difficulty passing stool is an understatement so I have to keep track so I can up medications if needed.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Fjm, across the pond, we can buy frozen squash in the freezer section of the grocery store. Usually it’s small cubes appropriate to mash easily. Perhaps you have this product?


----------



## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

Mick said:


> I’m probably the worst, detail oriented record keeper: each feeding- which food and /or medicine/supplement;
> each poo/pee/walk, when how much, what consistency; each grooming - any issues, each sebaceous cyst, sebaceous adenoma, is drawn on the picture diagram, provided by vet. Then, if there is any pattern or issues, it’s easier to notice, as well, as provide the summary to the vet. As the fur baby gets older, there is higher probability of various issues. This way, it’s easier to share with vet when did a symptom(s) began, how long the growth had been there, or any behavioral clues, like licking paws, scratching the hot spot, etc.


FJM, 
Here, canned pumpkin is in abundance around Thanksgiving and it’s cheaper, so we get couple of cans each shopping trip. Sense expiry date is at least a way, we cumulate enough to last till next season. A 14oz jar, refrigerated, once opened, and covered w/pet food cover, goes for close to 2 week. About kefir, if goat kefir is available tans affordable, it’s the best for both people and dogs. Though I suspect, the taste is an acquired one. 
Now comes the hard part. I must apologize to you and everyone, who read about VetriScience Probiotic. I checked on Amazon and on VetriScience website, and found discrepancy regarding the quantity of probiotic strains and price in the above mentioned VetriScience probiotic for dogs. The article stated that it had 9 strains of probiotics. But when checked, the ingredients label states only one strain. Also, the article was written in 2019, and listed the price of $10.99 on Amazon. Current price is $15.99 for Prime members. 
Please, accept my apology for misleading you.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Probiotics really do seem to be a minefield! In the UK the trick to buying canned pumpkin seems to be to live somewhere with a lot of US ex-pats, or have a friend who does, and to remember to check the supermarkets around Thanksgiving time - it is not a holiday here, of course, so I rely on PF to remind me.

I have never seen frozen squash here - I can buy fresh prepared butternut and sweet potato, or if I am feeling a tad more energetic a sweet potato scrubbed, pierced and microwaved is a good substitute.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

We are just back from Poppy’s check up - won’t get the blood test results till later, but the vet said she is looking very well. Weight steady, heart steady, good colour and no ascites (fluid in the abdomen), which would be a major warning sign. So provided the blood tests don’t throw up any nasty surprises all is OK for now, and possibly for several more years. We are all damp from standing around in the drizzle - they have a big open barn at the back and we talked in there, but I still got wet. Somehow it is always raining on vet days since handovers have been outdoors!

And whisper it very softly so as not to jinx things, but I seem to have got Poppy's diarrhoea under control. After considerable trial and error I found 1/4 tablet of Metrobactin (metronidazole) every 2.5 days gave the best results, plus 1/3-1/2 sachet of Protexin Pro-Kolin powder every day. I err on the side of caution with the Pro-Kolin as the one time I gave a largish dose there were explosive consequences, but her tummy has now been good for six whole weeks, hurrah! It took nearly 8 weeks before things really settled down - the Pro-Kolin literature says 2-6 weeks to see the effects, but if anyone tries it I would recommend persevering longer than that.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

That’s excellent news. Hopefully the blood work will have no surprises.


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

It is so hard sometimes with a chronically ill pet, I too fear to say things are going well, all we can do is enjoy it whilst we can. 
I am glad Poppy is stable fjm, and I hope the good far outweighs the bad for a long time to come


----------



## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

So sorry it wasn't better news. I hope it can be managed such that she has much happy life ahead of her.

Editing to add - I hadn't realized I hadn't seen all the posts. Thrilled to see she will likely have a nearly normal lifespan!


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Blood tests now in, and not much change from last time. Some, including ALT, sky high, indicating continuing inflammation, but others (bilirubin, protein processing, urea) in the normal range, indicating that we are still managing it well enough to keep her going. No need for another check for 6 months unless I notice changes. 

I think of you often Twyla - we both know what it is to have animals living on what feels like precariously borrowed time...


----------



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I’m very happy to hear such good news after a crappy day !


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Such good news!


----------



## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

fjm, I am so happy to hear that Poppy is likely to live happily for some time yet. The expression that we "give our hearts to a dog to tear" is so true, yet I cannot imagine living without dogs. They make me so very happy.


----------



## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

My Spoo absolutely loves Plain Kefir! The tarter the better. (So do I, but I was surprised how he went after it). Yes, goat is the best.

It is pretty easy to fork poke several pumpkins and/or squash and/or sweet potatoes/yams and simply put them in the oven whole. (I have arthritis and can no longer cut them in half). After cooling I cut and remove the seeds and strange inner part to put in the compost. Then I either throw handfuls, including some of the cut up skin where many of the nutrients are, into small containers or bags to freeze, or put in ice cube trays. I usually end up eating part of it myself too!


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Good ideas, Kontiki. I have stopped giving Poppy pumpkin for the time being - the hepatic food seems to be pretty high in fibre, and the signs were that pumpkin on top of it was just a little too much. At the moment the combination of a tiny dose of metronidazole every few days and daily Pro-Kolin is working, and I am just grateful for that. If we can get to three months without a splat I plan on gradually extending the time between metro doses, with the aim of eventually phasing it out altogether, and in due course we may be looking at even lower purine protein sources, but for now it is just a huge relief not to be following her around with a torch at 3am every night!


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Poppy is fortunate to have you as her carer. You've done an amazing job troubleshooting complications and changes as they've arisen.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks Liz - I am very fortunate in having a vet who explains things well and whom I trust. And being retired helps enormously when it comes to making sure meals and drugs are on time!


----------



## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

fjm said:


> .... being retired helps enormously when it comes to making sure meals and drugs are on time!


Oh mu gosh. just imaging trying to deal with this if working 8-5, plus driving time! So glad for your your sweet dog, and you, that you are retired.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sudden leap in anxiety levels - Poppy vomited an hour or so ago, and has refused her lunch - I had already made a vet appointment for this afternoon. She may have eaten something she shouldn't - it is extremely hard to prevent her from scavenging - but it is very probably a sign that her liver is deteriorating. She is very subdued and not herself. Off to the vet in a couple of hours - keep us in your thoughts.


----------



## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Hugs for you and Poppy, hope it all turns out well.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

My thoughts are with you and Poppy -- hoping for the better news, but I know the love and care you've taken with Poppy will guide you through the day.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Oh dear. Hoping for the best.


----------



## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Oh, no. Sending my love.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Thinking of you and Poppy and hoping.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Thinking of you both!


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Best wishes for Poppy.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

So far so good. Poppy announced she was hungry after all half an hour after refusing her lunch, and licked the bowl clean. The vet said there were no signs of jaundice or ascites, which would indicate her liver was worse, and it was quite possibly an ordinary upset tum. He gave her an anti-sickness jab and said to watch her carefully, and if the vomiting continued he would schedule a scan and further tests. No point in more blood tests today as so many of the results are already sky high and they wouldn't really tell us anything.

I think she may have eaten something she shouldn’t by the river this morning - let’s hope that was it, any way!


----------



## Luna the Spoo (Dec 29, 2020)

Sending hugs and hope to you and sweet Poppy🙏


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Poor Poppy and that scavenging appetite of hers! Hope she continues to feel better and better today.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Wonderful news!


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

The real test is if she keeps the next few meals down... At the moment she is combing the room hoping to find an overlooked mini treat, so the anti-nausea treatment has worked, at least!


----------



## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Yay Poppy! Stop that scavenging though, you're causing your mom so much worry!


----------



## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Thinking of you and Poppy. Fingers crossed the rest of today is only eventful in fun and relaxing ways.


----------



## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I am sending hugs and good thoughts to you and to Poppy. Be blessed.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm glad she's doing better.


----------



## Getting ready (May 4, 2019)

fjm said:


> So far so good. Poppy announced she was hungry after all half an hour after refusing her lunch, and licked the bowl clean. The vet said there were no signs of jaundice or ascites, which would indicate her liver was worse, and it was quite possibly an ordinary upset tum. He gave her an anti-sickness jab and said to watch her carefully, and if the vomiting continued he would schedule a scan and further tests. No point in more blood tests today as so many of the results are already sky high and they wouldn't really tell us anything.
> 
> I think she may have eaten something she shouldn’t by the river this morning - let’s hope that was it, any way!


----------



## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

Edited, due to more replies that didn’t show up when I typed my initial response.

Fingers crossed for Poppy that all is well.


----------



## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> So far so good. Poppy announced she was hungry after all half an hour after refusing her lunch, and licked the bowl clean. The vet said there were no signs of jaundice or ascites, which would indicate her liver was worse, and it was quite possibly an ordinary upset tum. He gave her an anti-sickness jab and said to watch her carefully, and if the vomiting continued he would schedule a scan and further tests. No point in more blood tests today as so many of the results are already sky high and they wouldn't really tell us anything.
> 
> I think she may have eaten something she shouldn’t by the river this morning - let’s hope that was it, any way!


So glad to hear better news !
Hope you can take a deep breath and rest a bit after serious anxiety splash.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I hope she continues to do well and this was caused by scavenging and not part of her illness.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

So far so good - bright, bouncy, hungry and no more vomiting. And no diarrhoea either, which is definitely a Good Thing. Next 24 hours should show whether it was just a blip, but I am hopeful.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Gladdened by this update. I see you're waking to a cold, brisk morning, but how light and warm you must feel, cheered by this turn of events.


----------



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I’m glad Poppy is doing well. Fingers crossed her tummy is all better !


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Coming up to 48 hours, and all seems well. She had me up and out a couple of times late last night but only for pees, and then slept peacefully till 8am - very late for us! Yesterday she was also first in the queue for the after tooth brushing lick of scrummy toothpaste - last year it was the thing she refused if she was feeling queasy, and every meal has been greeted with ravenous enthusiasm. Oooofff - what a roller coaster chronic illness can be...


----------



## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

Yayyyy! I was hoping no news was good news after 24 hours. ❤


----------



## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

So very glad she is doing better


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

It sounds like your nerves are settling, too, FJM. Glad to hear all looks good.


----------



## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Just seeing this now; glad she is doing better!


----------



## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

fjm said:


> Coming up to 48 hours, and all seems well. She had me up and out a couple of times late last night but only for pees, and then slept peacefully till 8am - very late for us! Yesterday she was also first in the queue for the after tooth brushing lick of scrummy toothpaste - last year it was the thing she refused if she was feeling queasy, and every meal has been greeted with ravenous enthusiasm. Oooofff - what a roller coaster chronic illness can be...


I'm so glad to hear that she is better! Hang in there, y'all!


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Poppy vomited again this morning - she has perhaps been a little subdued for the rest of the day but happy and hungry and eating well. I have an appointment with the vet for tomorrow afternoon, which I can cancel in the morning if she is OK overnight. I don't think there is a lot he can tell me without further investigations, and those would need an appointment at their hospital site instead - I may phone to discuss the possibility. I am wondering if it might be the metronidazole - she is on a very tiny dose (1/4 tablet every 60 hours) that has held diarrhoea at bay for over three months, but I know nausea can be a side effect. And, of course, nausea and vomiting is an effect of liver failure. 

We have had 12 good months since her diagnosis - it feels like the blink of an eye...


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m impressed she’s eating well. It sounds like you’ve achieved a very good balance of managing her symptoms without creating unmanageable new ones.

Cuddles to Poppy. Hope she is feeling too good for the vet appointment tomorrow.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Hoping it's nothing, FJM.


----------



## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I hope this is just a small blip. Hugs to you and to Poppy.

Johanna


----------



## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Be well Poppy


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

She slept well, and woke up happy and hungry, so I have cancelled the appointment. Looking back the meal before she was sick was slightly bigger than usual, which may have been enough to trigger it. Or I may be clutching at straws...


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

fjm said:


> She slept well, and woke up happy and hungry, so I have cancelled the appointment. Looking back the meal before she was sick was slightly bigger than usual, which may have been enough to trigger it. Or I may be clutching at straws...


That seems like a reasonable straw to clutch at. My parents’ little dog Molly has a very sensitive tum and the slightest deviation from her normal meals results in upset.

I’m happy that Poppy’s doing so well today. Onward!


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, as detailed on other threads the last two months have involved a partial cruciate ligament tear and ongoing issues with cystitis. The liver failure seems to be well managed, but the year on prednisole means Cushings-type symptoms, one of which is a high risk of cystitis. This morning I feared it was back after a couple of puddles in the house, and put in a call to the vet. We have agreed a plan should the cystitis recur, but he has also recommended gradually halving the pred - we are getting to the stage where if the bad guys don't get you the good guys will, and need to rebalance the seesaw a little. Meanwhile Poppy is happy, hungry, walking up to 3/4 mile several times a day (still being careful because of the ligament injury) and I'm beginning to suspect (hope!) that one of the puddles wasn't hers, so perhaps her bladder is also sorted for now. 

Oooff - it's been a busy day!


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

fjm said:


> Meanwhile Poppy is happy, hungry, walking up to 3/4 mile several times a day (still being careful because of the ligament injury) and I'm beginning to suspect (hope!) that one of the puddles wasn't hers, so perhaps her bladder is also sorted for now.


I hope you're taking comfort in the "happy and hungry," and perhaps a little whiskey.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

G&T this time, Liz!


----------



## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

fjm said:


> Meanwhile Poppy is happy, hungry, walking up to 3/4 mile several times a day (still being careful because of the ligament injury) .....


Most wonderful news


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Another month on, and we are struggling a bit with occasional splat poos but apart from that she is doing well. Walks are now up to a maximum of 1.5 miles at a time, aiming for a total of 2.5-3 miles a day (she had to be woken up for 8pm supper the day we hit 3 miles!). Her coat is very thin and the sebaceous adenomas are proliferating, but I have made her cotton vests that cover up the messy bits and protect her from sunburn, so she still gets oohed and aahed over for being cute rather than people recoiling in horror. After a particularly worrying purplish splat when I first cut her Pred to 1.5mg I reversed the change, gave her some time for things to settle, and this week started to reduce it more slowly. She's been on 1.75mg or so for a week, and so far so good. The aim is to get it down to 1mg, or the lowest dose that manages the liver failure.

The biggest problem at the moment is keeping her from eating stuff she shouldn't. Pippin-cat is old and creaky with arthritis so now needs a tray indoors, and Poppy is now hunting cat poo inside and out, along with anything vaguely edible dropped by humans along our various walks. The "Leave it" cue is getting lots of use and reinforcement...!


----------



## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

The cotton vests sound like just the ticket to make Poppy more comfortable. Bonus that folks see her as cute, even when she is going through these trying times. Your love is evident. ((HUGS))


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

You are doing a wonderful job keeping her happy and at her best. It’s so hard when they have health issues.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

It's hard when the little guys get old. I'm glad you are finding ways to keep he quality of life good.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

The care you provide your companions is impressive, FJM.


----------



## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

Thank you for sharing your experience in detail and over time in this thread. It is immensely helpful for others who’s dog might be living with liver failure now or in the future. I’m glad Poppy’s been pretty steady this past month. I hope cat poo isn’t too harmful for her. I cant imagine how difficult it would be to stop her from sneaking poop snacks inside.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

The knack is to get there first, Porkchop, which as she has a better nose and four legs is not easy. Especially at 2am when I am also struggling with a dressing gown and no contact lenses!


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

The obsessive eating reminds me so much of Gracie’s experience with Cushing’s. You are such a wonderful, whimsical storyteller, and yet I know how this stuff takes a toll. It’s so hard to say no to a pleading belly.


----------



## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

She knows those perfect times of opportunity and seizes them with poodle swiftness!


----------

