# Line breeding question ...



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

OK , 

I was never fond of "line breeding" but lately I see some breeders doing that with explanation that they know their breeding stock is "clear" of diseases and do not want to risk "polluting" their genetic fund. 

BUT - how OK is it actually to breed a Father to daughter :wacko: ???


----------



## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

I am okay with line breeding when its done right. Father to daughter is acceptable, it helps breeders know what they are going to get.

When I bred rabbits 95% of my stock was line bred, when I brought in a new Doe from outside lines it took a few litters with a few different Bucks to get what I wanted in my line and sometimes the Doe was sold if she did not throw what I needed and thought she would bring.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I agree with PP it just depends on what breed and what are the breeders goals . With poodles I don't think i would want a inbred dog since they have so many diseases. So i would be very careful if a breeder claim that their lines are healthy you would have to do research and get references. 

But for some breeds such as ADBA apbt's inbreeding is normal.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Purple Poodle said:


> When I bred rabbits 95% of my stock was line bred, when I brought in a new Doe from outside lines it took a few litters with a few different Bucks to get what I wanted in my line and sometimes the Doe was sold if she did not throw what I needed and thought she would bring.


May be a little off topic, but I think it's so cute how rabbits are called bucks, does, and kittens ^^


----------



## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Fluffyspoos said:


> May be a little off topic, but I think it's so cute how rabbits are called bucks, does, and kittens ^^


lol the offspring are actually just called Kits but it is fun to refer to them as such.

If it works for that breeder and the dogs are healthy physically and mentally then I see nothing wrong with line breeding but I think its something only to be used by experienced breeders who know their dogs lines.

Now would a I buy a line bred dog? Sure, I have one.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

It used to be standard practice to linebreed closely i.e father to daughter, son to mother. It does solidify a line with a certain look, temperament, structure and working style. It can also double up any problems that may be lurking in the line. For better or worse, you are going to see pretty quickly if you have health problems.

Frankly, I'm a bit uncomfortable with parent to offspring breedings. They just seem a bit too close for comfort. I guess I'm alright with uncle/aunt to nephew/niece though, which is silly because genetically are very, very similar to parent/offspring breedings.


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks everybody for the input  !!!

It is just that during my studies we did extensive research of some human "family trees" and it was obvious how easily recessive genes just popped out "like mushrooms" in incestuous cases and even in "second generation" coupling (uncle -nice) and even other "just cousins" weddings etc. :rolffleyes:

Since so many diseases are plaguing poodles it would be maybe better to "diversify" genetic pool but with extreme caution of not introducing carrier of the NEW bad genes in the line - I do not know what to think any more *sigh..

So many things to consider :rolffleyes:- some days I think I will just put a blindfold and pull the name of a knell out of the hat a yell : BINGOOOOO !!!! 

Just joking , of course ; ), but it is amazing how many things have to be taken in consideration for responsible breeding and planing *sigh... 

Line breeding obviously can produce a "super dog" as well as a heavily effected litter with some upfront unknown existence of a certain bad gene in the line !

Oh well ... search continues LOL

Thanks again for great insight into this matter !!! : )))


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Interesting discussion. The breeding I am considering would have the same grandfather on both sides, but complete outcrosses on the other. So I guess the dogs that were bred are half siblings? I debated whether I was comfortable with the breeding and in the end have decided to put my faith in the breeders who are involved, all of whom have a lot of knowledge about poodles. Fingers crossed it works out! Well if that breeding even has a puppy for me that is...


----------



## Ladybug (Jan 2, 2010)

In horses it works to breed the Father/Daughter and Mother/Son but NEVER Brother/Sister. I've seen brother/sister crosses... NOT good.


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks Ladybug


----------



## Buck (Oct 22, 2009)

From just what I have read about linebreeding/inbreeding as a pet companion home, I would turn away from getting a inbred puppy but am comfortable with a linebred puppy from a reputable breeder.


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks Buck for your input :beauty: I hope you have fun with you new baby : ))) !!!!!!


----------



## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Line breedings generally produce reliable results, reliable on both sides good and bad. You breed good lines you get good results. You want to put some outcrosses in there but sometimes those come with surprises with the combinations of recessive genes you didn't know were there. Similar grandparent on both sides is usually fine if they are good lines. The key is to know whats in the lines and even then there is some guess work, but line breeding isn't a bad thing in fact it produces some of the finer poodles we see today.


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks to you too Poodlepal !!!  It is always great to hear a lot of opinions and learn new stuff !!!!! Thanks !!!


----------



## highhorse (Sep 17, 2008)

No father/daughter mating can now be registered with the Kennel Club here in Britain.


----------



## dagnyreis (Nov 25, 2009)

Okay - it's a thread from January. (I've decided to wear my glasses when in this forum so the old eyes can see the small and faint print that gives me the dates.)

Listening to the very top breeders in the late '60s to mid '70s, they advocated both line breeding and in-breeding, but they also advocated "ruthless culling", which meant they would spay or neuter any offspring that didn't improve the breed. These are folks like Becky Mason (Bel-Tor), Jean Lyle (Wycliffe), my very close friend Dr.Jacklyn Boyd Hungerland (DeRussy) RIP all three. I remember Jacklyn spaying a bitch that had a genetic (we think) problem suddenly show up after she had her Championship AND had had a litter. Of course she made sure no dog in the litter reproduced.

When breeders speak of their "line" it means that knowledgeable Poodle breeders, judges, etc can recognize their dogs without checking , i.e., "That's a Wycliffe dog, an Espree dog, a Graphic dog". I have never seen anyone achieve that through random breeding, no matter how high the quality of the dogs. Predicting the results is difficult enough in line breeding, much more so without a strategy.


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Can we honestly say that any poodle "line" is healthy? To me it seems that there is always something there even if it's just allergies.


----------



## dagnyreis (Nov 25, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Can we honestly say that any poodle "line" is healthy? To me it seems that there is always something there even if it's just allergies.


No, we can't. Science isn't "there" yet. What we can say is that our breeding stock has been tested for X, Y and Z and found to be Normal. 

But establishing a line is about more than health even though health must come first. There really are very well known breeders producing shy Standards for instance. In my view temperament comes immediately after health. In my strategy structure comes third. You can produce a Standard testing Excellent on hips, yet s/he has a back so short that s/he side winds when she moves, or a neck so short s/he can't look behind him/her without turning the entire body. I could go on and on about poor structure and the functional results but you get the idea. I hurt when I see a dog that moves like a crab, or a mix master, or???


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I guess my question is for those breeders that think sticking strictly with their own "healthy" line is the only way to go. Why would you not outcross? If a line is never 100% healthy what keeps a breeder from adding something new into it? Is it because when you get type you want you might throw that away for 2 or 3 generations with an outcross? Or is there a worry about temperaments, etc. when outcrossing?


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I was once told by very high poodle club official (not local club, lets say "of America" ; ) _ that there IS NO LINE of poodles without health problems - period :smow:. 

They just differ in WHAT problems are more prevalent : ((... and excellent breeders know how to work "around them" so they produce mostly healthy dogs.


----------



## dagnyreis (Nov 25, 2009)

*Bloat*



wishpoo said:


> I was once told by very high poodle club official (not local club, lets say "of America" ; ) _ that there IS NO LINE of poodles without health problems - period :smow:.
> 
> They just differ in WHAT problems are more prevalent : ((... and excellent breeders know how to work "around them" so they produce mostly healthy dogs.


That "High Official" was right, including the work-around part - excellent breeders know how to stop an issue cold when it does appear and they mostly know where something comes from.


----------



## dagnyreis (Nov 25, 2009)

*Linebreeding*



KPoos said:


> I guess my question is for those breeders that think sticking strictly with their own "healthy" line is the only way to go. Why would you not outcross? If a line is never 100% healthy what keeps a breeder from adding something new into it? Is it because when you get type you want you might throw that away for 2 or 3 generations with an outcross? Or is there a worry about temperaments, etc. when outcrossing?


My opinion (and my breeding strategy) is to heavily linebreed and occasionally outcross to a stud dog who's equally tightly bred within a different line. If I take a bitch who's tightly bred and outcross to a loosely bred stud dog it'll take many generations before anything is even half way predictable regarding health or any other aspect of a quality dog. However, if you know what you're bringing in there will be much more predictability.

When outcrossing one can worry about temperament, health, type, basic robustness, all kinds of things, but if one chooses carefully it can actually help cement one's line and type. If you look at my bitch's pedigree you'll see that she's tightly linebred (for one her sire is also her grandsire) and in whelp to an outcross who is also tightly linebred (Olivia is in his pedigree 5 times). Hope this helped.


----------



## Jeremy (Mar 9, 2010)

highhorse said:


> No father/daughter mating can now be registered with the Kennel Club here in Britain.


Why ? :shocked:


----------



## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Jeremy said:


> Why ? :shocked:


Because there were too many uneducated breeders, who had no clue what they were doing, no clue on genetics, inbreeding really closely and doubling up on bad genes, causing lots of bad offspring.

But for the KC, it was due to the docmentry Pedigree dogs exposed 
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=44215931

Personally, I do not see the point of such close in breeding, you are really taking a risk, and even if you ensure that you have completely tested and clear breeding stock, there is always the chance that something will pop up in such a close breeding. No line is completely clear on health issues.


----------



## dagnyreis (Nov 25, 2009)

*Line breeding*



jak said:


> Because there were too many uneducated breeders, who had no clue what they were doing, no clue on genetics, inbreeding really closely and doubling up on bad genes, causing lots of bad offspring.
> 
> But for the KC, it was due to the docmentry Pedigree dogs exposed
> http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=44215931
> ...


The documentary, which I've seen before, is horrifying! Frankly, I've always found every breed in the video "abnormal", especially the brachycephalic faces. 

Having said that, line breeding is a tool and in the case of of the flat faced dogs it's a tool that's been misused. Those breeders know that if they pick the pups with the flattest faces in the litter and breed them to others that are related and also had exceedingly short muzzles/flat faces, the offspring will be more so.

Nevertheless it's a tool that not many are competent to use for good. In my breed not many are are line breeding trying to get back to the standard. This is what I'm doing and I feel very good about it. Standard Poodles have 
drifted away from a very detailed standard, and I may win less in the ring by 
doing it my way, but I think I'll contribute to the breed in a very positive way.

So remember that I did it successfully in the '70s and watch me - call me on it if I fall on my face - but give me credit if/when I succeed.


----------



## Jeremy (Mar 9, 2010)

IMHO its an absolute shame that Kennel Clubs are banning such breedings.
Yes, father-daughter, mother-son, full- and half-sibling matings should be done with the utmost care, and not done at all in certain breeds. 

I agree with dagnyreis - tight line-breeding with an outcross every few generations. As far as I know every successful line and kennel is built on that premise, and almost any experienced breeder, especially old-timers, will defend it as the best way to breed happy, healthy, beautiful dogs.

You can mate willy-nilly unrelated dogs and get, not only an uneven litter with all shapes and sizes, but also sick pups; and can also mate related dogs and get perfectly healthy pups - actually, I think its alot easier for a breeder to know what he can expect health-, temperament and even conformation-wise from a litter from related parents, than from a batch of puppies coming from a completely outcrossed or very loosely linebred pedigree.


----------



## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

I completely understand and agree where you are coming from, but there simply are not enough educated/intelligent/knowledgeable breeders to trust that these breedings will be done correctly! I have complete faith in you Dagny, but I doubt there are many like you in all the breeds!
Line breeding is certainly a great tool, but it has to be done so carefully.

With out crossing you certainly do risk disproportionate pups, and you could introduce a completely new health issue into the breed!


----------



## dagnyreis (Nov 25, 2009)

jak said:


> I completely understand and agree where you are coming from, but there simply are not enough educated/intelligent/knowledgeable breeders to trust that these breedings will be done correctly! I have complete faith in you Dagny, but I doubt there are many like you in all the breeds!
> Line breeding is certainly a great tool, but it has to be done so carefully.
> 
> With out crossing you certainly do risk disproportionate pups, and you could introduce a completely new health issue into the breed!


I again agree with you that there are not enough breeders who are sufficiently educated/intelligent/knowledgeable, but that should not cause us to throw away a valuable tool. Also, there is outcrossing and then there's outcrossing. My way, which is my imminent litter, is a closely bred bitch bred to a closely bred male of a different line.

Additionally, line breeding/outcross issues go way beyond the few things we can test for. 

As an example: a breeder who wins - her main stud dog has the very worst feet I've ever seen on a Standard, moves like a Hackney horse except with lots of up-and-down motion and flash, thus zero drive AND he is a constant barker - constant. How about the litter where EVERY puppy had a bad bite? 
...or the bitch who is so frightened and mistrustful that she has a nervous peeing episode with nearly every person she meets? How about cow hocks?

My point: One cannot test for those things but they're extremely damaging to one's line once introduced.

I'll be going on my merry way breeding AWAY from the dogs in the show photos with pretty profiles that are actually like paper dolls, lacking chest, spring of ribs, bone, width of croup (note I said width, not length). Clean cheeks are a must, but Poodles also need enough chin and fore face to be able to fit all those teeth in their mouths. Still, I will also breed away from the coarse Standards with heads like a Doodle. 

I'm too old to get where I would like to go, but I can start and perhaps in some small way it will improve the breed.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Hey, if you see a Black stud dog with great length of neck, huge fore-chest and a beautiful head w/small tight eye, send his name my way!!!!!


----------

