# Is this dominance or normal puppy "attitude"?



## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

When we picked out our puppy, his breeder said he was "confident and high energy". I just saw how sweet he was and wasn't worried about our alpha puppy. Now I'm wondering what I've gotten myself into! LOL 

Since he's our first poodle... and our first puppy in 14 years, I wonder how much is normal puppy behavior and how much is his alpha dog personality coming through. Here's what I'm noticing... (he's 9 weeks old)

-He's humped toys and the air (while playing with my daughter) 4 times now.
-HE does not settle down when I put him on his back (after he humps)... he continues to struggle, try to bite my hands, and whine/bark.
-When I try to correct behavior (closing his mouth and saying "no bite" when he bites at our hands) he gets "mad" and wiggles around trying to bite again.

In the pro column, he's super smart and has already learned several good behaviors. I'm trying to be very positive with him but it's really hard when he's doing things that I feel are not okay. Whew. Raising a puppy without an adult dog in the house is kicking my fanny. 

We start our basic obedience class tomorrow night and I'm excited to work with the trainer.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sounds thoroughly normal puppy to me, especially for a baby only 9 weeks and presumably very new to your home and your rules! Are you putting him on his back as a punishment? It's probably not a good idea - liable to make him at best wiggle to get up again, and at worst decide that you are dangerous and to be avoided or warned off. Humping is a natural play behaviour for many pups - it might be better to just stop the game, or distract him with a toy, if you don't like what he is doing. Similarly the usual advice for puppy mouthing is to yelp loudly and stop the game, rather than to get involved in what he may see as a game of bitey-bitey - you want to help him to learn how to mouth gently, rather than stop him biting altogether. That way, if he is ever pushed into using his teeth as a bigger, stronger adult, he will inhibit his bite automatically.

Have you seen the excellent information on raising a puppy on the Dog Star Daily website Dog Star Daily It can come across as a counsel of perfection at times, but is very useful on socialising, teaching bite inhibition, polite behaviour, and all the other really important things that go to raising a pup into a happy, healthy dog. There are lots of good, up to date books on puppy raising - Gwen Bailey's Perfect puppy, and Patricia McConnell's Puppy primer spring to mind.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

as someone who does not, as many at pf do, reject cesar millan out of hand, i still agree with fjm when it comes to puppy training. gentle, non-forceful methods seem to work best on puppies. the latest cesar millan book even has a whole chapter by ian dunbar, who is kind of the guru of no touch puppy training. not that i agree with him entirely, either, but the underlying principle of not using force on a very young and impressionable creature makes a lot of sense to me. just my opinion, of course.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

Thanks for the advice. It's hard to find what is best. I have the breeder who is recommending a very hands-on approach and then reading/watching advice that is very gentle. I just want to raise a gentle, sweet dog. 
I'm going to back off with the physical corrections and use more of the gentle approach. I certainly want to create a strong bond between us.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

He sounds like a confident, very intelligent puppy - I think you may find training goes a lot faster working with him rather than against him. One of the most successful sessions I ever had with Poppy was when I forced myself to keep my hands still, not say a word, and just use the way my weight shifted to show what I wanted. She wanted to dash downstairs along with me; I wanted her to wait and let me go ahead. Just moving a fraction forwards, then back if she moved, got the message across in just a few minutes. No treats needed, as the reward was to go down the stairs. Young puppies are so easy to train with rewards, and it is so much more fun for everyone!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Dogmantics Dog Training | Progressive Reinforcement Dog Training

I highly recommend watching some of her videos. She's fabulous!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

by the way, re "alpha" dogs. i believe they do exist, but a high-energy dog may or may not be one. read patricia mcconnell's definition and her description of her own alpha dog in _the other end of the leash_. it's an important perspective on what leadership - even among animals other than humans - is and can be. so when you are told to be the "alpha," it does not necessarily mean ruling with an iron fist and forcing or yelling your dog into "obeying" you. this is where i do give kudos to millan for emphasizing the role of the human owner in exerting calm, assertive energy. as he has said, "be yourself, but be your best self." i believe if you ask yourself, the answer would be that your best self would not use force on a small child or a young puppy.

i suspect you will develop your own mix of what works - and some of that will depend on your dog, not just on one or another training method. not all dogs respond in the same way to various training ploys. you do hear people complain that now their dog won't do anything unless a treat is in the offing. this is one reason dunbar, for example, fades treats out very quickly. it's important to realize that trainers have different points of view - and that is good, because dogs and people differ and you and your dog have a better chance if you know there are many tools that may work when trying to build your relationship. the bottom line is that the more you work with your dog, the more you will figure each other out and the better chance you will have of ending up with the dog you want.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

This forum is proving invaluable!  I really appreciate all of the support and advice. I am loving our training times and I will now carry treats with me at all times so I can quickly turn what would have been a frustrating moment (not wanting to follow me inside because there's a leaf blowing nearby... even though it's 12 degrees outside. LOL) into a fun time since he gets a treat for following me. 
He is a very quick learner and loves to learn. It's really a thrill to see him learn. The kids and I took him outside, on a super long leash, and played the "come" game between the three of us. It was so much fun! We kept it to only a few minutes and he's really getting it. Towards the end he'd finish chewing his treat and look around to see who would call him next.  

I feel so much better then I did this morning. Thanks all! And Bingo thanks you too!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Glad to hear you're feeling more confident and enjoying the excitement of puppyhood. There's no more calming, well-reasoned, helpful voice than that of* fjm*, IMO. In fact, I often find I "channel" her shared words of training wisdom and deep understanding of dog behavior when I'm working with Chagall. I want to put in a plug for the trainer *Poodlebeguiled* gave you the link to as well. I often wish Kikopup (Emily Larlham) were my neighbor! Here's the link to a fun training exercise I like. Enjoy puppyhood, it really goes by quickly.
"It's Yer Choice" - YouTube


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

I read fjm's words and instantly my shoulders relaxed.  You all have such a wealth of experience to share. I'm so grateful.

The funny thing is that in the months leading up to bringing Bingo home, I watched every kikopup video, bought her clicker training DVDs, and researched all of these techniques until I was practically hearing clicks in my sleep. All my plans seemed to fall apart when there was a real puppy in my house. Now, a week and a half into it, I think I'm finally learning how to put it into practice. I was doing fine during "training sessions" but it was the in between times that was flustering me. I'm now telling myself that it's all training sessions.... some structured and some not. 

Did I mention that he rang his bell at the front door to go out last night for the first time!? I threw the biggest puppy party!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Oh* YAY!* You have the makings of a bell ringer there!! That is_ great_ progress!!:clap2:


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## all that jazz (Feb 6, 2011)

My Jazz is a confident and intelligent dog also. As a puppy there were two times during the day- first thing in the morning and at 4 PM when I would call him "demon dog" because all he wanted to do was mouth or nip me. He would also zoom around. That passed after about five months of age. (The nipping). Now at three years old he is an absolute delight. He still is "a nut" as we call him, he loves to play constantly, is very obedient (we took him to classes), must always zoom by me to go outside if I open the sliding glass door, etc. I can't put anything over him. He is a very fun dog and we love him very much. As his breeder had said, "the first few puppy months are very hard, if you stick with it, after six months you will have a friend for life." She was very right. I, too, wondered if I had made a mistake. This is just how some confident pups are at this age. Incidentally, if I turned my body or yelped it didn't stop him from trying to nip me. I got to the point where I "protected" myself with a blanket. Just give it time. The more you play games with him like fetch, the calmer he should get. (temporarily). Good luck.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

thanks especially for sharing your experience with nipping. this is the kind of thing where we all give advice and when it doesn't work people think they have failed. but different dogs do react differently, and it's important for new owners especially to realize that and continue moving forward in developing their relationship with the new family member. sounds like you did that and came out a winner!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

all that jazz said:


> I got to the point where I "protected" myself with a blanket.


This made me giggle. I had visions of a bullfighter and a bull! :becky:


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## all that jazz (Feb 6, 2011)

When I got Zoe, selected for a different kind of temperament, she went through her nipping phase nipping Jazz and I was off the hook! She is shyer, calmer, more kissey kissey still likes to run and have fun but does not have the same energy level as Jazz. I love them both and they make a perfect "complement" of poodles.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

all that jazz said:


> When I got Zoe, selected for a different kind of temperament, she went through her nipping phase nipping Jazz and I was off the hook! She is shyer, calmer, more kissey kissey still likes to run and have fun but does not have the same energy level as Jazz. I love them both and they make a perfect "complement" of poodles.


Your posts keep making me smile!


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## gr8pdls (Jul 13, 2010)

BeckyM said:


> Since he's our first poodle... and our first puppy in 14 years, I wonder how much is normal puppy behavior and how much is his alpha dog personality coming through. Here's what I'm noticing... (he's 9 weeks old)
> 
> -He's humped toys and the air (while playing with my daughter) 4 times now.
> -HE does not settle down when I put him on his back (after he humps)... he continues to struggle, try to bite my hands, and whine/bark.
> -When I try to correct behavior (closing his mouth and saying "no bite" when he bites at our hands) he gets "mad" and wiggles around trying to bite again.


Just so you know, that humping behavior is not a male thing. My female pup, now 18 months old, does that ALL the time to me when she's pumped up from playing. She'll grab on to my leg so tight that I can hardly shake her off. She does that while we're training Agility and the Instructor yells "Hey, get a room". After I gently and calmly push her away, we go onto the the next thing without incident.

Patricia McConnell has a great post about Alpha dog myth http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/sites/default/files/Bark%202001%20Winter%20Alpha%20Schmalpha%3F.pdf. She also has a whole series of articles about dominance theory Dominance is a dog training philosophy | Patricia McConnell | McConnell Publishing Inc.. You'll change the way you think about training your dog after reading them.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

BeckyM said:


> I read fjm's words and instantly my shoulders relaxed.


I think that is one of the best compliments I've ever had - I'm glad it helped!


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## allisonhana (Feb 12, 2014)

Something that worked well for us with Porter that hasn't been mentioned here was to use isolation or a "time-out." I'm sure this doesn't work for everyone, as many have mentioned here, what works for one pup may not work for another. But when Porter would get into a frenzy of some sort, whether it was biting, playing too mean with us or another dog, barking excessively at someone or something, we would close him out of whatever room we were in for a few minutes until he calmed down. He eventually learned that if he wants to be "part of the pack," so to speak, he needs to be a respectful member.


Regardless, it all takes time, so hang in there!


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## Chells_Aura (Dec 7, 2012)

I know it's moot as you don't have bingo anymore... but for future members who may read this thread... an example to how important bite inhibition is...
With Chell we worked really hard on her bite inhibition, and the other day it payed off. Something scared her and she cried out and tried to dive under the ottoman I have in front of my chair. I tried to pet her to comfort her and she spazzed and "bit" me out of fear. Because of her awesome bite inhibition her teeth barely scraped my hand and by that point she'd realized what she was doing and crawled into my lap licking me. Still have no idea what freaked her out, and she's been fine since. But yeah... I'm very glad we learned about bite inhibition and worked so hard on it!


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