# Puppy from sire with FAIR hips?



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I would steer clear if the dam's line has not been tested at all. It's possible for a puppy to get a Pennhip evaluation at 16 weeks. However, I don't think it is reasonable to expect a breeder, especially one who didn't test the mother, to hold onto a puppy for an extra two months with the possibility that the buyer will then decline the purchase.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Peggy’s dam had fair hips (which is still within the normal range), but her sire’s hips were excellent.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

If the mother isn’t tested, I would probably pass. If the mother has excellent or even good hips, I would probably consider. Bad hips are not 100% genetic, there are environmental factors too.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I would consider a sire with fair hips only if I really loved the pairing for other qualities and if the dam had excellent hips, but I would also want to see multiple generations to see if it's a recurring issue in the line. With sires the breeder can really choose the best, so a dog should be exceptional to be used as a stud. He should at least have other qualities that let him bring something special to the gene pool. Otherwise I'd expect a different sire to be used.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

If the sire is otherwise a good dog, and is bred to an equally good bitch with a hip rating of Excellent of maaayyyybe a Good, I would consider a pup. If you do get the pup, PennHIP testing can be done as early as 12 weeks, if I remember correctly. You can also get an OFA Preliminary done as early as 4 months, and up to 23 months. After 24 months, it would be a permanent rating.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

TeamHellhound said:


> If the sire is otherwise a good dog, and is bred to an equally good bitch with a hip rating of Excellent of maaayyyybe a Good, I would consider a pup. If you do get the pup, PennHIP testing can be done as early as 1 weeks, if I remember correctly. You can also get an OFA Preliminary done as early as 4 months, and up to 23 months. After 24 months, it would be a permanent rating.


Here you go:

“The PennHIP exam is done under anesthesia and can be performed on a dog as young as 16 weeks.”






PennHIP Screening | Veterinary Surgical Specialists


PennHIP is a screening technique to evaluate dog hip joints. Learn more about how PennHIP can help determine your pet's risk of developing osteoarthritis.



www.vssoc.com


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## MAAPL (9 mo ago)

Thanks everyone. I'm having trouble responding to each individual comment on my computer. Dam's hips are rated GOOD and her parents are GOOD and actually N/A


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

MAAPL said:


> Thanks everyone. I'm having trouble responding to each individual comment on my computer. Dam's hips are rated GOOD and her parents are GOOD and actually N/A


Hit the “Reply” button on the bottom of the post you’d like to respond to.  That will automatically paste it as a quote.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Here you go:
> 
> “The PennHIP exam is done under anesthesia and can be performed on a dog as young as 16 weeks.”
> 
> ...


Oops... typo. My keyboard is sticky, and a lot of times the keys I hit don't always click. I know they can't be done at only one week.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Hard pass for me. Even if his contract covers him through 2-5 years of age, do you want to bond and then return? That'd be a tough ask for me, and I'm not a person who calls my dogs "fur babies":

1. The only other relatives on OFA? I would want to see loads of relatives in OFA and CHIC certified.
2. If someone was planning on breeding a "fair," I would want to see backup PennHIP testing to assess other quality aspects of the hips. 
3. If the "fair" came out of granddam/grandsire with "fair" who was/were known to put out pups with confirmed dysplasia - I would want to know how they estimate the cost-benefit of this risk.

Have they provided you their rationale?


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

After I commented, the thought floated around and I had a duh moment-I looked all this up a year ago and decided YES, to move forward with the pup. Phoebe’s dam has fair and sire has good. Grandparents are 1 excellent, 2 good, 1 fair. Ggparents are 3 excellent and 5 good. Phoebe won’t be tested, since she is not going to be bred.


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## MAAPL (9 mo ago)

Hit the “Reply” button on the bottom of the post you’d like to respond to.  That will automatically paste it as a quote.

Hi Peggy,

I was doing just that, but then my response would jump to the end of the most recent post. Its like there is a backend programming issue on this page or something?


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## MAAPL (9 mo ago)

After I commented, the thought floated around and I had a duh moment-I looked all this up a year ago and decided YES, to move forward with the pup. Phoebe’s dam has fair and sire has good. Grandparents are 1 excellent, 2 good, 1 fair. Ggparents are 3 excellent and 5 good. Phoebe won’t be tested, since she is not going to be bred.

Good to know, thanks Ellen.


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## MAAPL (9 mo ago)

I would consider a sire with fair hips only if I really loved the pairing for other qualities and if the dam had excellent hips, but I would also want to see multiple generations to see if it's a recurring issue in the line. With sires the breeder can really choose the best, so a dog should be exceptional to be used as a stud. He should at least have other qualities that let him bring something special to the gene pool. Otherwise I'd expect a different sire to be used.

Right, I agree. Why choose this sire?


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## MAAPL (9 mo ago)

TeamHellhound said:


> If the sire is otherwise a good dog, and is bred to an equally good bitch with a hip rating of Excellent of maaayyyybe a Good, I would consider a pup. If you do get the pup, PennHIP testing can be done as early as 12 weeks, if I remember correctly. You can also get an OFA Preliminary done as early as 4 months, and up to 23 months. After 24 months, it would be a permanent rating.
> 
> Thanks for your response. Dam's hips are only rated GOOD.


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## MAAPL (9 mo ago)

TerraFirma said:


> Hard pass for me. Even if his contract covers him through 2-5 years of age, do you want to bond and then return? That'd be a tough ask for me, and I'm not a person who calls my dogs "fur babies":
> 
> 1. The only other relatives on OFA? I would want to see loads of relatives in OFA and CHIC certified.
> 2. If someone was planning on breeding a "fair," I would want to see backup PennHIP testing to assess other quality aspects of the hips.
> ...


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Why is the sire side almost completely untested/unknown? That information still leaves me in the hard pass camp. And now I am wondering what other health/genetic testing has been done on the breeding pair (and their lineage). Do both sire and dam show results for eye, thyroid, SA, and cardiac testing when you look them up on OFA?


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I'm also curious why there are so many unknown. I assume you have a pedigree for them but they just weren't tested. So I have no idea why this sire was chosen.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Aside from the hip/health testing factor, have both of these dogs competed in conformation/obedience/sport and have titles to show success? Ultimately, it's your decision, but your instinct to ask this community leads me to believe red flags are going up. I ask the extra question to see if there are other flags that warrant attention. Good luck in your deliberation! I hope if you put down a deposit, it will be refunded. There is no perfect dog, for sure, but I think your concern is warranted. The lack of data on sire side is absolutely not normal in a solid preservation breeder.


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