# Spaying dilemma



## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Aria turned 7 months old on Saturday, and I know she is getting close to that time where she will need to be spayed.

I just don't know what to do. Since I got her I have been hell bent on having her spayed after her first heat. I have been told by both my vet and my breeder that it may be beneficial to her if I let her go through 1 heat cycle. Neither of which, have told me I need to wait, but that I may want to. My problem is, everything I read about it is contradictory. I find just as much articles saying its better to wait for them to go through 1st heat cycle as I do saying its best to have her spayed before her first heat cycle. I mainly wanted to wait because I have been told by my vet that because she had a UTI when she was younger, she may be prone to get more and waiting to spay her could reduce the risk of chronic UTI's. I also though it could reduce the risk of bladder incontinence. Then I read a feed on here about how many females still suffer from that even though they were spayed later.

I'm just so confused and nervous. I don't want to cause her problems because I waited to long or didn't wait long enough. 

What are your guys suggestions? What's funny is I've always had my dogs spayed around 6 months and never have let my dogs go into heat, I don't know why this dog is making it so hard for me to decide when. After reading a lot about spaying in now leaning towards getting her spayed next week and getting it over with. I'm beginning to think there are more benefits to getting it done now then if I waited. Plus, my husband and I are going out of state mid feb and I am terrified of her going into heat while she is staying at my parents. I just don't want my mom having to deal with that responsibility.

I'm open to everyone's advice.


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## Oreo's Mommy (Dec 18, 2012)

Just my opinion... Get it done ASAP. Better safe then potential unwanted puppies.


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## cailinriley (Oct 30, 2011)

I can relate to your dilemma. I seem to be second-guessing every decision I make about our spoos. They're just so important to me that I don't want to make a mistake. Plus, with the internet, there's so much more information (and misinformation) that it's hard to know what to do anymore. 

When we got our female, the breeder urged us to wait until she was 2 years old before spaying her. But we take our dogs for daily off-leash runs, and we didn't want to have to deal with heat cycles. Plus, as you say, there are some sources that point out the benefits of earlier spaying. We compromised and held off for as long as we felt comfortable. As a result, we had our girl spayed just after she turned 11 months old. We had read that many spoos start their heat cycles at around a year old and, even though our girl's dam and older siblings were closer to 18 months old before beginning theirs, we were a bit nervous about waiting any longer. 

SInce your vet is urging you to wait so your pup won't have chronic UTI's, and because larger dogs, like Standard Poodles, tend to go into heat later than smaller dogs, I don't think you'd be wrong (or sorry) to wait a few more months. From what I've read (and this makes perfect sense to me), delayed spaying helps dogs in their development. I truly regret having our two males neutered at 6 months. I hope they don't experience health problems, down the road, because of it. 

I don't want to advise you...only you can decide what's right for you and your dog. I just wanted to share my thoughts and experience. Hopefully, others will be able to tell you when their female spoos had their first heats, so you'll know if you can safely wait (and not worry about your parents dealing with a heat in your absence).


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

The two research papers I found most useful are here:
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
The effect of neutering on the risk of mammary tumours in dogs – a systematic review - Beauvais - 2012 - Journal of Small Animal Practice - Wiley Online Library

The second paper is not sayig that the research on mammary tumours was incorrect, simply that its findings may not be as reliable as we have believed.

Personally I would follow your vet's advice. A protected family pet is at low risk of accidental pregnancy, and it really is not that difficult to cope with a heat cycle these days (unless you have a lot of free ranging male dogs locally, and no enclosed yard, of course). In some European countries spaying is only done in response to disease - they are horrified at the thought of doing it for what seems to them simply "convenience" - these are often the same countries that have very few stray or homeless dogs, so the pressure for prophylactic spaying is very different.

But it is a decision only you can make, knowing your dog and your household. There are risks either way, and the research is neither as complete nor as up to date as one would like for such an important decision. After a great deal of thought I decided not to spay my two - it seemed to me that the whole hormonal and endocrinological systems were too complex and interconnected to remove chunks "just in case". But I know my decision leaves them at risk of pyometra and mammary tumours, and that it might be one I regret in the future. Meanwhile I watch them and check them over very, very carefully.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thank you for your inputs and the articles. Her accidentally getting pregnant is not a worry of mine. She is never aloud to be in the yard alone even though we have an 8ft privacy fence, I'm always just so paranoid someone will steal her. And she comes to work with me and practically everywhere else, and is kenneled when I can't keep an eye on her. Also, I have never seen a roaming dog in our neighborhood so it appears that my neighbors are mostly responsible. 

I was going to go in and talk to my vet today also and see what she says. I am in a contract that I just have her spayed by 12 months so I always planned on having it done by 11 months if she doesn't go into heat by then. 


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

She might be like Bonnie who didn't come into heat until 14 months old the first time.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Well I can't wait that long, I will have to do it by 11 months. I know it's very possible she would go into heat after 1 year, just been very hopeful. I'm beginning to lean towards sooner then later for spaying. I'm beginning to feel that the benefits out way all negatives, and I would be able to put my mind at ease faster. I've never had to go through a heat before and I'm really nervous putting myself through it.lol


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

outwest said:


> She might be like Bonnie who didn't come into heat until 14 months old the first time.


OW, Indy is 19 months...still waiting! I wanted to wait to spay her until then too


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## TheBigRoo (Dec 3, 2011)

We had our Luna spayed somewhat early actually. I think she was 5-6 months. Our vet whom we trust and has been an excellent source of support for us always seems to lean on spaying/neutering early as opposed to later. I would probably lean on getting her spayed as soon as possible. I agree that there is more of a benefit to spaying before she comes into heat. I believe the chance for certain types of cancer can go up significantly if spaying isn't done before the 1st heat cycle. 

However, I don't want to step on the toes of your vet. We've always been pretty consistent with neutering and spaying our dogs with enough time before it becomes an issue. I'm sure you'll make the right decision.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thank you sooo much everyone for your experiences and opinions. It's much appreciated and is giving me more assurance that I'm taking the necessary steps to make my final decision.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I think I might be in the opposite camp. I used to be a believer in early spay neuter because it is what is shoved down our throats & being in USA lots of research goes into Spay/Neuter BUT I also believe there are so many irresponsible people & just plain stupid people that our country has a huge overpopulation issue. With the internet now I have waited to Spay my dogs. While researching other countries I came across a few papers in Europe where there is very little spay/neuter going on, few homeless animals etc... What I read was amazing & yes there are pro's & con's for both sides & even different benefits to the sexes. In conclusion certain breeds lived longer & healthier if spayedneutered later around the 30-36 month mark. True there is mammary cancer but this type of cancer not only is survivable but easy to detect. On the other hand Bone Cancer is higher if spayed earlier & not easily detectable & is deadly if not caught or limbs not removed. Anyway interesting article & now 2 of my bitches are all spayed but I waited till 36 months or more to take care of it. My 1 Crested how I adopted at 15 months had at least 2 heat cycles & she is just fine at 14. On the other hand my parents 8 year old Golden Spayed under 1 year & Dead, 5 year old Golden spayed under 1 year & dead. go figure.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

This is what I think: 
If you had a 8-10 year old human girl and she lost her ovaries and uterus, wouldn't you give her hormones to ensure her immune system, brain, bones and muscles developed properly? I would. Those hormones are powerful things and do a lot more for a body than allow reproduction. That's why I think they should reach full maturity before neutering or spaying. 

With a male, I think 18 months unless you are having a lot of behavioral issues (some males do get obnoxious when they hit about 9 months old!). With a female I think wait until after the first heat. Yes, the heat is a PIA, but it is only 2-3 weeks long. My druthers would be to wait until both sexes are two years old, but I know that is unrealistic for most people what with the higher licensing fees and not allowing them in the dog parks and other nonsensical issues. If you can wait until at least a year old you have done so much for the dog! 

Dogs that are neutered/spayed early don't physically develop the same way as a dog who has been allowed to keep their hormones until maturity. Sometimes they are taller/leggier with less muscle mass, not as good a coat and weaker bones and teeth, for example. Think about humans. When people lose those sex hormones their bodies change. for example, Men have smaller muscles, women's hair thins. Looks don't matter a lot if they are a pet, but still...

Just my opinion.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

The only thing I've experienced with my previous dogs with being spayed at 6 months was bladder incontinence. Which came later in their lives around 7 years old. All of my dogs have lived 12+ years and died of old age, only my Aussie died of cancer and she was 14. 

I believe I am so up in the air about this is because my standard is the first dog I've ever owned that I have done such extensive research on and have opened myself up to so much knowledge. 
I know it's in my contract with my breeder to spay by 12 months, unless I change my mind and decide to show her( something we only concidered because the breeder asked us too) but we decided that showing was never in our plans and it just won't fit out lifestyle.

I think I might decide to give her until 10 months old and if she doesn't go into heat by then I will get it done. But, I could change my mind again tomorrow. I trust my vet and I know she takes my hesitations seriously and would never push me into anything.

I again appreciate everyone's input. You. Guys have really helped my confidence in making the right decision at the right time for our situation. 


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

You might want to consider showing UKC. It will be a more relaxed environment, owners only showing their dogs & a good time to bond with your dog. Not sure where you are located but it might be a possibility if you are living in the US.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

No that's ok. Our breeder shows in AKC, and the only reason we considered it was because when they had the show evaluator over to evaluate the puppies at 8 weeks Aria was one of the 3 they picked out. The breeders chose one of the other show prospect puppies to keep, but they almost went with Aria. When we came to pik her up the next week they asked us to consider showing her and offered to even pay half of everything. When I inquired about his future litter And put down a deposit I was looking for a pet quality puppy. And that's what I paid for and dined a contract for. 
My plans for her is to get into agility and also compete in grooming. I'm a professional groomer.

I paid for a pet quality dog but ended up with show quality for a lot less, no complaints here. ;-)


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## TheBigRoo (Dec 3, 2011)

outwest said:


> This is what I think:
> If you had a 8-10 year old human girl and she lost her ovaries and uterus, wouldn't you give her hormones to ensure her immune system, brain, bones and muscles developed properly? I would. Those hormones are powerful things and do a lot more for a body than allow reproduction. That's why I think they should reach full maturity before neutering or spaying.
> 
> With a male, I think 18 months unless you are having a lot of behavioral issues (some males do get obnoxious when they hit about 9 months old!). With a female I think wait until after the first heat. Yes, the heat is a PIA, but it is only 2-3 weeks long. My druthers would be to wait until both sexes are two years old, but I know that is unrealistic for most people what with the higher licensing fees and not allowing them in the dog parks and other nonsensical issues. If you can wait until at least a year old you have done so much for the dog!
> ...


Outwest, you definitely bring up a number of good points here. We had a black male many years ago (Magic) and we never had him neutered. He was our first family dog and at the time, I don't quite remember the reasoning behind not neutering him, but aside from his seizure problems for his entire life, he was pretty healthy until he bloated at 9. He was a more aggressive poodle, though. Very sweet to people but, you know, when a dog is intact, they're going to be more aggressive with other animals, most likely. Magic ultimately died from some type of dementia/brain cancer but we never really got definitive answer from our vet at the time. I'm not sure how much longer/shorter he would have lived had he been neutered.

Regarding size and growth, I'm told that neutering or spaying at around 6 months (maybe 7 or 8 months for a male) does not affect a dog's growth pattern. Magic, our black male, was a bit smaller of a male (around 24" or so at the shoulders) yet remained intact his entire life. Our silver male Picasso was neutered around 6-7 months I believe and he turned out to be a BIG boy (27" at the shoulder) and remained very healthy until 9 or 10 when he started suffering from IBD. Samson was neutered around 6 months and he's grown to 28" in height at the shoulders and has a strong and SOLID muscle structure.

Granted a lot of this also has to do with genetics and who the dog's parents are, but I don't know if there's always a direct correlation between early neutering/spaying and size with respect to the standard poodle. Not sure how it is in other breeds but I have a feeling hormones act/react differently between dogs and humans. Still, both sides of this argument (early vs. later neuter/spay) definitely have merit. 

The fact is, there's so much we don't know about poodle (and general dog) genetics and what causes their diseases specifically, so a lot of this can be chalked up to chance and discretion of various vet and breeding practices. There are probably an equal number of positive and negative affects at both ends of this debate. I do feel it's often good practice to spay a female a bit on the earlier side. A male could probably wait a little longer, but I've always been worried about early cancer in females.


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## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

well ...I dont really have advice for you lol.... Only to say my contract said to spay at 1 year. I did it a 11 ish months Bc her birthday is dec 18 and I have so much family in and out I was afraid of a heat cycle during Christmas.... Hind sight is 20/20 ... I stressed out about it as much as you did and of course now i think bank and realize it wasn't as big a deal as I thought.... As far as urinary incontinence ... Lola has always been a submissive piddler (with strangers and other dogs, not family or people she knows) so I was worried about timing of spaying. She turned 2 last month and I swear it was like someone told her she's a big girl now lol it stopped like a light switch... Good Luck! I'm sure you'll make the right decision 


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Well your contract states spaying by 12 mons and both vet and breeder suggest waiting, then I would wait till she is 11-12 months. The percentages are really small for cancer and that doesn't worry me. The only thing that worries me is pyometra which can be caught early and she can be spayed. I don't spay my bitches unless medically necessary as I feel they need their hormones just like we do. That said there are a lot of irresponsible owners out there that I feel should spay them. We all know our limitations and if you don't feel you can/want to wait then don't. 
Personally I don't think going thru a heat cycle is that big of a deal.. My mini is a bleeder and it's a lil bit of a pain when you have to groom or bathe them while they are in season, but otherwise no biggie. My will be 5yr old in march mini is intact and my 9 year old toy ways spayed a little under a year ago when she got an open pyometra infection. You could tell she had something off about her, and she was high risk for it. Bloodwork didnt catch it so i was lucky it was an open pyo. She had hydrometra (liquid in the uterus) and she had what I believe were silent heats. As soon as she was spayed she lost about 75% of her coat and her allergies and dry skin increased. I had to put her on melatonin to regulate her hormones per my vets instructions. She is better now, altho i wished she never had to be spayed, she is back on melatonin again. She still seems able to hold it like a champ so no incontinence yet, altho she seems more sensitive to what she eats. 
ETA I didn't/don't have issues with roaming, accidental pregnancies, or behavior changes either with my intact bitches. They know who their pack leaders are and things are peaceful within the pack. Outside the pack my mini is always pushy on her own turf with other dogs and she isn't one to back down from even larger dogs like labs, dobies, or huskies *sigh*. My toy could care less intact or spayed about other dogs. 

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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

I read the whole thread and I wish I had something constructive to say, but I'm actually in the same boat. I have all Lou's papers to breed and show, I won't do either, but I don't have to spay her if I don't want to. 10 days ago I asked the vet about heat because I noticed a little swelling and the vet said Lou was about to go into heat, I haven't noticed any bleeding so I'm actually going to contact the vet about it ... 
I decided to wait because I just felt weird about having her cut open under anesthesia (I'm afraid she could die, I know it sounds silly when I type it but it is surgery and the word alone scares me) I'm afraid of anesthesia, always have been, even in humans. And I also thought about the hormones being necessary for her to finish maturing. But now that she has/will have her her first heat, my next concern is WHEN/IF I should spay her... I have not done too much researching but from what I hear it's confusing anyways. But my thoughts are, now that I have waited for her first heat, she has not been different personality wise and if she does change then I will automatically think of spaying. But for now I'm just going to wait and see.... Thank you all for the info.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I had Maddy spayed around 16 months old, she had never gone into heat; I waited to let Indy come into heat before spaying her, and she finally did at around 22 months old. It was no big deal; no dogs camped out on our yard and she was completely herself, except maybe a little bit more cuddley which was no hardship! We just put boy's underwear on her during the day to keep the house clean and she played, romped and acted just as silly and fun as she always does in them. Sooooo....now I am kind of thinking of not spaying her. Like many have posted, it's not the big deal in Europe that it is here, and there are no roving dogs in our city. So why go through the big surgery if it's not a big deal? Still thinking it over.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Indiana said:


> I had Maddy spayed around 16 months old, she had never gone into heat; I waited to let Indy come into heat before spaying her, and she finally did at around 22 months old. It was no big deal; no dogs camped out on our yard and she was completely herself, except maybe a little bit more cuddley which was no hardship! We just put boy's underwear on her during the day to keep the house clean and she played, romped and acted just as silly and fun as she always does in them. Sooooo....now I am kind of thinking of not spaying her. Like many have posted, it's not the big deal in Europe that it is here, and there are no roving dogs in our city. So why go through the big surgery if it's not a big deal? Still thinking it over.


Yup me too, not 100% sure, but for now I'm thinking about waiting a while and maybe not spaying or spaying at 2 years old... Thanks for your response!


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## Lavinia (Jan 1, 2013)

I had Sophie spayed one month ago, a day before she turned 6 months old (not a brilliant present for her birthday, i still feel guilty about it ). 

Here, in Romania, opinions are divided concerning spay. Our vet suggested early spaying and i was in favour of it, too, because she goes crazy without daily walking and with all the strays here, i wouldn't have dared take her outside.

Anyways, her behavious hasn't changed in the slightest, she is just as playful and happy as before. We had some problems with a UTI right after spay, but it healed really quickly. Now, when her stitches were supposed to come out, the site became somewhat infected, but it turned out to be nothing serious.
I have heard that another one of the benefits of spaying while young is that they recover quite quickly. I don't know how much truth is in that, but it applied for Sophie: by the fourth day (and even during the third) we had trouble keeping her still.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Lavinia, the stray dogs (or loose dogs) would definitely make me spay my dog too, if I were you. When I was growing up, you always knew a female was in heat because the family who owned her would have dogs in their yard, lots they didn't even recognize! (males can smell a female in heat from miles away) But things have changed so much now, here in my city we have a really vigilant animal control team and there are no loose dogs. Well, you see the odd one, but it's very unusual.... I've seen a loose dog maybe 3 times in 8 years. So that was quite a big factor in my decision, and the fact that NO dogs showed up when Indy was in heat. But it's just something I'm kicking around, I may have her spayed, not sure yet


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I would probably have her spayed around a year of age regardless of whether or not she had her first cycle.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

I know this is not my thread but... I have noticed Lou has a lot more energy now than she did when she was little. In the last month or two she has been very energetic... Could it be related to first heat?
Should I make a thread about this? How do I make a mew thread on iPhone? Thank u thank u


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