# Health guarantees



## Newbie in BC (Dec 27, 2009)

Just curious as to what exactly a health "guarantee" from a breeder should cover, and for how long, etc. This term is thrown around a lot, and I think there may be confusion about what it means. I'm under the impression it's a guarantee against the genetic diseases that can be tested...VWD, NE, and DM. So basically if you already know they have been cleared, it's a moot point, right? Just wondering if there is more to it than I realize?

Thanks


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Well, just because the parents have been cleared doesn't mean the puppies won't get those genetic diseases. They shouldn't, but it is possible, though hopefully unlikely. I think it is _because_ the parents were tested "clear" that the breeder confidently guarantees health. 

I'm not a breeder, so hopefully some other people can give you advice about the specifics of health guarantees.


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## Newbie in BC (Dec 27, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Well, just because the parents have been cleared doesn't mean the puppies won't get those genetic diseases. They shouldn't, but it is possible, though hopefully unlikely. I think it is _because_ the parents were tested "clear" that the breeder confidently guarantees health.
> 
> I'm not a breeder, so hopefully some other people can give you advice about the specifics of health guarantees.


Hmmm, I'm confused...if the disease is genetic, and neither the dam nor the sire have the gene for the disease, how can they get it??


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

They can carry the disease without being affected. Many diseases are recessive and don't show up every generation.

For example, a dam and sire can have OFA excellent hips, and they can have a puppy who develops HD. This is true with many of the other diseases as well. Negative results from Dam and Sire mean that it is unlikely the puppies will develop issues, but it still does happen.

I don't know much about SA, but I think it is also thought to be recessive. A puppy can develop SA even if the parents tested to not have SA.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

OK, I think it would be useful to distinguish between tests that we have DNA tests for and more general health testing. In standards, we have DNA tests for VWD, NE (although that is more an issue for breeders than pet owners because affected puppies die very soon after birth), and DM. Minis and toys have a test for the (by far) most common form of PRA (a genetic disease that causes dogs to go blind). All of these diseases are simple recessives, which means you need two copies of the gene to be affected. You will NOT have a VWD-affected dog if you breed a clear to a clear or a clear to a carrier. 

Then there are things that we try to do health testing for because they show up as problems in the breed or variety, but we don't have DNA tests for them, and it isn't clear that they are autosomal recessive diseases (hip displasia is almost certainly polygenic, for example). Such testing for standards includes hip x-rays, SA skin punch (which should be repeated periodically throughout the breeding career of the dog), CERF (eye exam, which should be repeated annually throughout the breeding career). These are tests that try to establish the health of the parents at the time of breeding, but cannot predict with certainty the disease state of any puppies. At that point you need to rely on the knowledge, judgement, and integrity of the breeder to make sound breeding decisions. Those judgements should be made on the basis of the health tests AND knowledge of the pedigrees of the sire and dam.


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## Newbie in BC (Dec 27, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> They can carry the disease without being affected. Many diseases are recessive and don't show up every generation.
> 
> For example, a dam and sire can have OFA excellent hips, and they can have a puppy who develops HD. This is true with many of the other diseases as well. Negative results from Dam and Sire mean that it is unlikely the puppies will develop issues, but it still does happen.
> 
> I don't know much about SA, but I think it is also thought to be recessive. A puppy can develop SA even if the parents tested to not have SA.


RIght, I was thinking of the genetic diseases VWD, NE, DM, which if the parent is clear - then they don't carry the gene, period. So they can't have offspring with the gene either. Hips are different because it's based on an assessment of the structure of the hips, not a gene per se. And from what I understand, the SA test can be clear, but that doesn't mean the dog can't develop it later. It's a skin test, not a look at a gene. I guess not all genes have been identified for all diseases, much like with humans. We know some things are genetic, but that doesn't mean we can test for them.


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## Newbie in BC (Dec 27, 2009)

Feralpudel said:


> OK, I think it would be useful to distinguish between tests that we have DNA tests for and more general health testing. In standards, we have DNA tests for VWD, NE (although that is more an issue for breeders than pet owners because affected puppies die very soon after birth), and DM. Minis and toys have a test for the (by far) most common form of PRA (a genetic disease that causes dogs to go blind). All of these diseases are simple recessives, which means you need two copies of the gene to be affected. You will NOT have a VWD-affected dog if you breed a clear to a clear or a clear to a carrier.
> 
> Then there are things that we try to do health testing for because they show up as problems in the breed or variety, but we don't have DNA tests for them, and it isn't clear that they are autosomal recessive diseases (hip displasia is almost certainly polygenic, for example). Such testing for standards includes hip x-rays, SA skin punch (which should be repeated periodically throughout the breeding career of the dog), CERF (eye exam, which should be repeated annually throughout the breeding career). These are tests that try to establish the health of the parents at the time of breeding, but cannot predict with certainty the disease state of any puppies. At that point you need to rely on the knowledge, judgement, and integrity of the breeder to make sound breeding decisions. Those judgements should be made on the basis of the health tests AND knowledge of the pedigrees of the sire and dam.


I think we both said the same thing (probably typing at the same time!), but yours was much better articulated. Thanks!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Feralpudel said:


> OK, I think it would be useful to distinguish between tests that we have DNA tests for and more general health testing. In standards, we have DNA tests for VWD, NE (although that is more an issue for breeders than pet owners because affected puppies die very soon after birth), and DM. Minis and toys have a test for the (by far) most common form of PRA (a genetic disease that causes dogs to go blind). All of these diseases are simple recessives, which means you need two copies of the gene to be affected. You will NOT have a VWD-affected dog if you breed a clear to a clear or a clear to a carrier.
> 
> Then there are things that we try to do health testing for because they show up as problems in the breed or variety, but we don't have DNA tests for them, and it isn't clear that they are autosomal recessive diseases (hip displasia is almost certainly polygenic, for example). Such testing for standards includes hip x-rays, SA skin punch (which should be repeated periodically throughout the breeding career of the dog), CERF (eye exam, which should be repeated annually throughout the breeding career). These are tests that try to establish the health of the parents at the time of breeding, but cannot predict with certainty the disease state of any puppies. At that point you need to rely on the knowledge, judgement, and integrity of the breeder to make sound breeding decisions. Those judgements should be made on the basis of the health tests AND knowledge of the pedigrees of the sire and dam.


Thank you for clarifying for me and for the OP! I did my best but I am not a breeder so I don't know much. I just know that some diseases may be recessive and some diseases occur even if the parents don't have them. I was trying to be helpful but I simply don't know enough about the topic - Sorry!


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

I have thought about this question for many moons. You can't actually guarantee a dog will not develop addisons or hip dysplasia, so I think the better term may be warranty.
Since a myriad of problems come under the umbrella of genetic disease- S.A., hips, addisons, etc. which have no DNA markers, the question is- what does the breeder do when one of those problems rears it's ugly head?
I'd like to know, as I have been slammed for stating that I guarantee against genetic disease for (normal lifespan) life.
Carole


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

What exactly does a health guarantee mean anyway? If your dog develops a hereditary illness, the breeder does what?


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

the contract will state what the breeder does. 

Some breeders refund the cost of the puppy. 

Some breeders require the return of the puppy (Note i don't know any GOOD breeders who do that!) 

There usually is a limit on the legnth of a gaurentee. Average dogs with healthy hips won't show HD at 2-3 years of age. A dog who'sg oing to get it is going to have it show up at that age etc.


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