# UC Davis SA Research Study Results



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

People can read the discussion portion and the conclusion with understanding. There is a pic of a poodle with SA at the end.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

That photo of the poodle with SA is.. quite misleading. While SA is a horrendous, ugly disease and many poodles can look like the poodle in the photo, sometimes worse, with open wounds and infection, the majority of SA poodles are not so dramatically affected. They appear "normal" but may present with symptoms such as dry flaky skin, thickened harder than normal ear wax, slightly thinning hair. SA is often misdiagnosed as food allergies. Many vets have never heard of it. A couple of years ago I had the (unfortunate) opportunity to speak with two vets, both new grads from the same vet school-- niether of them had even heard the term "sebaceous adenitis". One of them went so far as to try to convince me that I was actually talking about sebaceous cysts and just had misunderstood the word! As I was trying to share information with them regarding the UC Davis study and the need for participants should any SA affected poodles cross their paths, I was quite confident that I was not talking about sebaceous cysts. There are poodles in the show ring who have SA, who have not lost coat. I personally own a poodle who is fully coated NOW, who has SA. A few years ago.. she lost much of her coat. SA is nasty, it is insidious.. and apparently.. it is almost everywhere in standard pooodles.. as is Addison's disease. Renal dysplasia is also prevalent throughout the breed and is getting to be incrasingly common. I'm gloomy at the moment, feel very disheartened after reading this report.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yadda luv, I think you should repost this in the breeding section. It is important. Please, please, if you are a breeder or if you care about the future of the poodle, please read this. It concerns me that since it is a scientific paper that people will begin to read, not know what they're talking about and stop, not getting the true gist of the study. Like I said, if you scroll down you will find discussion sections and other areas where no scientific background is needed to understand what they're talking about. 

I hope fervently that in particular the show dog breeders read and absorb this and choose their sires carefully. It takes more than one or two breeders to make a difference. My dogs breeder did the extreme and bred one generation to minis, but you do not have to do that to make a difference. It has proven to take her near ten years of careful breeding to get the conformation relatively straight again, but the outcome and postives of doing so is clear to me having one of the later generation dogs. I do not plan to breed to any more minis and neither does she. Not many people could spend the time, money and effort to do that, but there are other ways. Arreau is doing a great job bringing in dogs from unusual places, for example. 

If you are a show breeder, read it, because your dogs are the ones that are most likely to perpetuate the breed. You can outcross without too much conformation suffering, but you will see a positive difference in the dogs in so many other ways.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

outwest said:


> I think you should repost this in the breeding section.


Crumb. I wasn't paying attention to where I posted it! Is it okay to cross post it on two threads? This is where I need the help of a moderator! So.. Moderators: If it's okay to do so, will you please post in the appropriate places with many thanks from me? I would appreciate it!


Attention all poodle people: PLEASE CROSS POST THE LINK TO THIS STUDY ON EVERY GROUP YOU CAN!

The information is not only important.. it is critical to the future of healthy standards. There is a lot of information there that pertains to overall breed health, not just the disease of SA.

Again, my Thanks!

Darla


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*Somewhat mindless mutterings regarding the SA study*



outwest said:


> I hope fervently that in particular the show dog breeders read and absorb this and choose their sires carefully. All standard poodle breeder's, regardless of their priorities need to pay heed to this study.It takes more than one or two breeders to make a difference.Exactly right. Again, no matter what the priority a breeder is breeding for, whether it be money, stars and stripes (multicolors), size (big or little), every single poodle pup produced has the potential to either worsen the extent of the inbreeding and overall health, or be an improvement and of benefit to the breed. I've done several posting's regarding MHC (which is the generic term for DLA)-- even if the COI's are super high, if the poodles who are being bred have different DLA haplotypes (or MHC haplotypes... exactly the same meaning, just different terms), then there is still diversity. But there needs to be MHC/DLA haplotype testing done to ensure that the poodles being bred are truly not of the same haplotype. My dogs breeder did the extreme and bred one generation to minis, but you do not have to do that to make a difference. It has proven to take her near ten years of careful breeding to get the conformation relatively straight again, but the outcome and postives of doing so is clear to me having one of the later generation dogs. I do not plan to breed to any more minis and neither does she.That is one of the possible options towards re-establishing health, low risk. Not many people could spend the time, money and effort to do that, but there are other ways.According to the OFA, the average "life expectancy" of a breeder.. is only 5 years. Somehow, we need to make this information common knowledge and promote it to breeders so that even the get in/get out of breeding folks are still contributing in a positive manner. Arreau is doing a great job bringing in dogs from unusual places, for example. Agreed. One of the potential problems with that is.. in most cases, they are still all related. Really. At that point, haplotype testing could be critical to determine whether or not a poodle being added to a breeding program is truly an outcross or not. In addition, we need to quit closing our eyes and looking the other way when it comes to isolated backyard breeders. While most are using poodles who are just one step away from the mainstream, there has been a group of poodle breeders who have looked for obscure genetics and bloodlines for many years now. One of the places they looked was to backyard breeders.
> 
> If you are a show breeder, read it, because your dogs are the ones that are most likely to perpetuate the breed.Again, this is the responsibility of all breeders, not just show breeders, however I agree more than I can say that show breeder's are the most likely to perpetuate the breed because of all of the propaganda that poodles must be "proven" or titled before being bred. You can outcross without too much conformation suffering, but you will see a positive difference in the dogs in so many other ways.Agreed again. Now that this information is available, I hope that all breeder's take it to heart.


Another point that I really want to mention regarding the SA study: While there was no significant difference in SA expression or no cases of SA in dogs with heterozygous MHC vs homozygous MHC, it has been proven in many studies both canine and of other species that it is advantageous to the immune system and overall health to be diverse at the MHC level. (take a look at the Standard Poodle Project website again for more information on this). There is also a possibility that one or more of the less common haplotypes are not desireable. We won't know that until more time passes.

As for getting poodles from far away, well, take a look at the study again. Most of our standard poodles are so significantly inbred to the point that it really doesn't matter if you get your new stud locally, or import from across the seven seas.. there is a possibility that new poodle is so closely related to the ones you already have as to be siblings. Really. That doesn't mean there aren't unrelated poodles out there.. it just means that exquisite care must be taken to ensure that a breeder is actually receiving the outcross they think they are.

I recently did a test breeding with the computer (I do them all the time.. I just rarely ever do any actual breeding with live dogs <VBG>) involving one of my poodles, a backyard bred boy from a fairly obscure line, to a fairly obscure backyard bred line in the UK. No common ancestors in at least 5 generations. Imagine how high my eyebrows raised when the COI came back at nearly 20% Yup. Really. That's also yet another great example of why considering a 10 generation pedigree isn't nearly enough generations. 

In the SA study, there are many references to the most common DLA haplotype. That is referred to on the Standard Poodle Project as "type 1". PLEASE NOTICE THAT TYPE 1 IS ALSO FOUND IN BOTH MINIS AND TOYS! Again, without a testing for MHC type, even a cross to a smaller variety can still result in homozygous MHC.. and defeat much of the reason for doing such a cross.


I am crossing my fingers and hoping that the poodle clubs are motivated by this study to provide more funding for additional DLA typing as it is so critical to the health of our poodles.

When striving for MHC heterozygosity in planned breedings, if one knows the parent types, then it's easy to give an accurate statistical prediction of the MHC types of the offspring. Why "statistical'? Well.. the chances of a pup being a male or a female are 50/50, yet rarely are litters 50/50 male/female. Each pup has a 50/50 chance of being a male (or a female). The same type thinking applies to the inheritance of MHC haplotypes. Each poodle has two haplotypes (unless they are homozygous, then they still have two, but the two are identical). Each parent passes on one of their two haplotypes to their offspring. 

I'll use for example my Dot x Gilley breeding. Dot's haplotypes are 1 and 5; Gilley's haplotypes are 1 and 4 (meaning that both of my parent dogs are heterozygous). The possible haplotypes of the resulting offspring are:
1/1 (homozygous)
1/5 (heterozygous)
1/4 (heterozygous)
4/5 (heterozygous)
The only way for a breeder to tell the haplotypes of the individual offspring is to have them tested. I did not do that, so.. I don't know what haplotypes the puppies were. But based on this example, one can see how it is possible to reobtain diversity of the MHC. Again, MHC diversity= healthier immune systems.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

Very interesting and revealing study. Thank you for posting this, it is important !


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## DavidT (Apr 15, 2010)

You are right, it is horrendous. Our Standard looks o.k. at times and at other times looses hair in various places. This week it is his top knot or lack of and back part of his hind legs. The rest of him, back for instance...not too bad and is curly. Legs not curly but much straight and thin hair. We do special baths and a very good oil treatment from a breeder in Texas that seems to really help and drys in about one hour. Let me know if you want a link.

David


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

*Oil treatment*

Thank you David, I'd really like the link if it isn't any bother. I have one standard that has been afflicted with SA for a number of years and I too do the oil treatments. They work pretty well, but are a pain, as I leave the oil in for 90 minutes, then I sit on the bathroom floor with Missy and wait.. If there's another kind of oil that works better, I'd sure like to try.
Thank you.
Dolores


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## DavidT (Apr 15, 2010)

Hi Delores,

Contact Sheree Melancon at [email protected]

I have been through the traditional procedure of oil baths and one or so hour of incarceration. Not fun for the dog either.

Sheree sells a special oatmeal / goats milk soap which you bathe your dog with as much as once a week for a few weeks and then down to once every two weeks or as needed etc. 
After drying the dog, you then spray Sherees special oil all over (best done outside) and, it may not seem like it, but it dry's fairly fast, smells a little strong but not bad. I generally plan the drying time to coincide with my dogs play (Frisbee) time. This is much, much easier than the other way. We have been doing this for about 9 months and have seen much improvement although the SA will be with us forever as you know.

Good luck, you can tell Sheree where you heard about this if you want.

David Turner


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

David and Papoodles,

Do you remember what the earliest signs of SA were?

About a week ago, my 13 month old Cammie had about 15 small lumps on her shoulders, upper arms and neck. Each one seemed to be a scab so I assumed that she had been bitten by some insect. Most of them seem to have cleared up now. This morning, I could find about 5 lumps. Sometimes the scab has dried and I can scratch it off of her without hurting her. I've been thinking that this will get better by itself, so have not taken her to the vet. And it does seem to be getting better. But do you think this might be an early manifestation of SA??? I certainly hope not. No problems with her coat. Both of her parents were tested for SA (I know that's not a guarantee).


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## DavidT (Apr 15, 2010)

Hi,

You are right about "no guarantee's"....our male comes from a long line of national multi champion animals. His sire showed no signs of SA until 6 years of age. 

I am not a vet, but what you are describing could be early signs of SA, but I would definitely have him checked by an animal dermatologist for sure. What we saw at first was more like heavy dandruff...flaked off in big chunks. Good luck, I hope it isn't SA, but if it turns out to be, please let me know and i will put you in touch with someone that has a product to more easily help deal with it.

DavidT


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

DavidT said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are right about "no guarantee's"....our male comes from a long line of national multi champion animals. His sire showed no signs of SA until 6 years of age.
> 
> ...


It is a horrible disease. Symptoms can range from red staining on the hair to full blown scaling and hair loss. The best way to know is to print the forms from OFA take them to your vet and ask for a punch biopsy of affected areas. Many on the SA yahoo group have spent thousands on so called allergy's to later find out they have been dealing with SA all along. I use an argon oil soak and a IOD's Royal Jelly Shampoo but we still have flare ups at times of stress or season's changing where all improvement is lost in a couple of days time. 
I was hoping for a DNA test or at least a better test than we currently have.
The study results are very sobering.


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

Hi David, thank you for the link, I'll contact your friend about her special oils. I have been doing the multi hour oil baths for almost 5 years. I'll try anything to make life a bit easier for Missy and myself.
Peppersb- I am hard pressed to remember if nodules appeared as the first symptom, but I do not think so, as I would have remembered seeing scabs.She still never has had open scabs, but there are some nodules under her skin that look and feel like 'fatty' peas.
Her first symptoms were a gradual change of hair color, which made her previous pure white coat turned pinkinsh orange on the top of the head, the back of the neck, and gradually descending down to her toes. BTW- she did not want anyone to mess with her feet after that. Gradually I noticed heavy silvery scales clinging to her hair shafts, along with a gradual fur loss.She basically looked 'moth eaten'.
After the first oil bath she lost almost all her fur, which came out in patches during the wash with Palmolive oil, but it all grew back. Her fur is nice and full, but I do have to keep up with the constant oil bath, approx. every 6/8 weeks for her, or as soon as I notice a color shift to her fur.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Thanks for the descriptions. Cammie's symptoms seem quite different, so I'm guessing that she is just fine. Thank God. No heavy dandruff, no fatty peas, no silvery scales, no changes to her coat of any sort. The little wounds/scabs are almost all gone now. 

SA sounds just terrible. I read the study and it certainly does not sound like a reliable DNA test will be coming any time soon. I am very sorry that you and many poodle owners have to deal with this disease. :sad:


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

peppersb said:


> Thanks for the descriptions. Cammie's symptoms seem quite different, so I'm guessing that she is just fine. Thank God. No heavy dandruff, no fatty peas, no silvery scales, no changes to her coat of any sort. The little wounds/scabs are almost all gone now.


Lumps and weird stuff on dogs' skin might be something to do with the time of year. Here we are having a weird, unpleasant summer with the weather raining and winding at the wrong times. None of the vegetables or crops are growing right, and there is a tick, flea, and midge epidemic. I took my dog to the vet because she had a small circular bald patch in front of one ear and I was afraid of this, but the vet thought it was a tick bite that she'd had a reaction to. I have found several ticks on her and myself recently. SA from what I understand starts with large parts of the coat becoming greasy, smelly, and clogged with dandruff before the coat loss appears. The odour is supposed to be like towels that have got wet and not dried out properly.

I have been looking at pedigrees of SA dogs recently (so much that PHR locked me out a few times for using it too much lol) and the writers of the paper's findings make sense in that SA does not appear to behave like a recessive mutation. I suspect it is the result of several different loci that, when particular alleles appear in the same dog, exert a dominant effect. This would explain why SA sometimes appears to come from nowhere in a pedigree, and why SA can be inherited from parent to child even when there is no history of SA in the other parent. I would also not put too much significance yet on SA not being found in certain haplotypes, as this may just be an artefact of limitations of the data set. The most striking example of it I found is the unfortunate dog in the link below. Here, SA has passed down the maternal line for three generations. There is no reported evidence in the father's line for five generations.

PHR Pedigree Database


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