# EXTREMELY annoying article on doodles



## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

It makes me want to spit! Not so much the focus of the article, but the fact that they didn't interview Poodle or Labrador breeders, and that they never challenged any of the breeders on the misinformation about crosses, i.e. always non-shedding, hybrid vigor, etc, etc.

Pls post a comment.

Are doodle dogs worth their price? | Reuters


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have met some very cute, sweet doodles, but I can't understand why you would just not get a poodle. It is always the poodle breed that each owner of a doodle is hoping for... and in my eye the poodle is so much prettier. It is a trend and nothing more. I know all about people craving the latest trend as an interior designer , trust me... I know.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

"A lot of people don't want a poodle, because it's the pedigree with a pedicure," Animal Fair's Diamond says. "People who are into poodles are into arts, wine and culture."

I wonder who created that impression, eh?  Could it be the Poodle Clubs?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Shouldn't this article have "Sponsored advertisement feature" across the top?


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i'm posting a comment. 

i really wish that poodles esp standards were not shown in non sporting with so much emphasis on the hair. that makes me so annoyed.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I'd never spend $3000 on a doodle. I dislike the doodle breeding but what can you do with the misinformed? I just end up sounding like a poodle snob. I say, let them have their doodles if that's what they choose - more poodles for us!!!


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## stealthq (Aug 4, 2011)

Carley's Mom said:


> It is always the poodle breed that each owner of a doodle is hoping for...


See, I have to disagree here. I've met several doodle owners who really wanted a _Lab_ (or Golden, etc), but were drawn in by the promise of a non-shedding or minimally shedding dog. 

Basically, they thought they could have the breed they wanted with even less grooming (for some reason non-shedding == no grooming in their minds), which is about the only reason they'd even think about a poodle cross in the first place. Obviously, they know nothing about poodles if they think that there's *less* grooming involved, but that is usually what they were told by the breeder.

For some reason, otherwise intelligent and worldy-wise people seem to become incredibly naive when buying a dog. I don't get it.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

stealthq said:


> For some reason, otherwise intelligent and worldy-wise people seem to become incredibly naive when buying a dog. I don't get it.


This is SO true!


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## apriljean80 (Aug 23, 2010)

Posted a comment, but it isn't showing up. In fact I see no comments. It did say that comments will be posted pending approval. Hmm.

We have friends that bought a labradoodle. Well, her well-meaning husband who wanted a dog bought the family a doodle for his wife's bday. She loves our spoo and grew up with spoos but her husband is a "manly" man and hung up on the fou fou image in spite of the fact he's met ours. Not only is their poor doodle the ugliest dog I've seen, he sheds, is extremely hyper all the time, and looks like a strange combination of the two breeds. These people are BOTH well educated(she is a science teacher and he is a college professor). Words failed me when we found out what he had done. 

I understand adopting a doodle, or maybe even taking a free one if their was a whoops litter, but paying that kind of money for one? I don't get it.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I see there is no mention of the severe matting issue many of them have when mixing poodle hair with other hair.

"A lot of people don't want a poodle, because it's the pedigree with a pedicure," Animal Fair's Diamond says. "People who are into poodles are into arts, wine and culture."

Ludicrous.


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## apriljean80 (Aug 23, 2010)

Outwest, that pedigree and pedicure comment really irked me too....in fact in my comment which I have yet to see I basically called myself a hillbilly ******* and said our spoo is the best dog we've ever owned. Ludicrous is right. Poodles are versatile, much like those that own poodles


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Here's the best...."People who are into poodles are into arts, wine and culture. But when you cross that with a Labrador - and guys who are into Labradors are into sports - you get a fabulous mix and a fabulous dog."


Hey, Outwest, we think alike. Unbelievable.


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## Annie and me (Jun 30, 2011)

*Michael Wagenbach utilizes his background in genetics (he worked with seed beans in college at Iowa State*), "and we thought there was a lot to be offered in breeding hybrid dogs-to enhance the health and longevity, promote sound temperament and improve the genetics," Erica says.

That just made me laugh.:stupid:

Poodle hair is A LOT of work. Do the Doodles have the same grooming issues?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

outwest said:


> Ludicrous.


I don't think there's anything ludicrous abt the first part of that statement. 

"A lot of people don't want a poodle, because it's the pedigree with a pedicure."

'London' kinda proves that statement all by himself. 

The 2nd part is, of course, hyperbole. Something that has been used OFTEN in this forum alone.  lol


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

A man at the dog park (who owns a giant Rottweiler) saw Leroy and told me "Your poodle is the most UN-girly dog I've ever seen." As Leroy walked by, covered in mud, tongue hanging out, smiling and panting. I pointed out he's manly with nice blue nail polish on his nails (the mud really makes the blue stand out!), soooo why's it a bad thing for the poodle to have the pedigree with a pedicure?? Lol


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## apriljean80 (Aug 23, 2010)

Tokipoke, not that its a bad thing to have a pedicure, it was the implication (imo)that all those that own poodles are about culture and art and wine and those that have labs are into sports. It IS ludicrous. 

If my girls ever had the chance to they'd paint Biscuits nails in a heartbeat(they've painted my DH's but not gonna let them paint the dogs, too many chances for a big mess) And I wouldn't care about the paint. Its the fact this article didn't portray a true image of the poodle and their versatility and fed readers full of misinformation that I had a problem with. 

BTW-don't tell my DH I told you all about his fancy pedicure, he was terrified he'd get into an accident or something and medics would have to cut his shoes off and discover his pretty toes before he got the polish removed. He let the girls paint them and then discovered we were out of nail polish remover.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

apriljean80, oh yeah, I know what the article is trying to say  - I was poking fun at the literal fact my poodle had a pedicure! lol If poodle owners are all into wine, and art, and culture... isn't this saying the opposite of doodle owners? They are into... cheap beer, and are illiterate, bigots?? lol I don't know. The whole draw to doodles beats me. It is true I find the well-educated to be drawn to them more though. I guess many people are used to taking things at face value. Underneath all that nice hair of a poodle, is still a dog. And they like to do dog things! 

Btw, Has anyone ever said "I want a nice doodle to hunt with"?? If these "men" are so into sports and outdoors, what are they using these doodles for?


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

I was editor of a series of home theater magazines over a 20 year period, and had one of my writers turned in such an unbalanced, poorly researched puff piece, they would have been paid a kill fee and never worked for me again.


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

My friend with a doodle wishes her dog had denser, less whispy fur. She wishes he had longer ears and longer legs. He has a stouter body than she would like. He has a behavioral trait from the breed he's crossed with that concerns her.

In other words, she wanted a poodle, only she didn't know it. I wonder how many other people there are like her, who just don't understand what poodles are about? I want to say to her, "next time just get a poodle!" but I'm biting my tongue -- for now, anyway!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)




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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> ... they never challenged any of the breeders on the misinformation about crosses, i.e. always non-shedding, hybrid vigor, etc, etc.
> 
> Pls post a comment.
> 
> Are doodle dogs worth their price? | Reuters


I agree that it's not a very comprehensive article, but they did at least mention that "Folks buying doodles and betting on the poodle's non-shedding coat may not always get what they want."

There's a lot of hype, but that's not exclusive to "Doodle" promotion.

I find it a bit odd that you and others here should be so annoyed by these crosses (or the promotion of them) when every breed recognized by every sort of kennel club started out the very same way at some historical moment. Since people have been selectively breeding dogs, they have always bred them to get the qualities they desired (which differ, of course, from person to person). This is an ongoing process, inside and outside of the AKC and its ilk.

That these "Doodle" breeders (and others) are able to get such enormous prices for these animals, especially when there are so many in rescue everywhere, is just a measure of the overwhelming ignorance of the consuming public, which, as you suggest, this article does nothing to alleviate.

There is a solution, of course : take the money out of dog breeding. As an example : it was not uncommon for people on the field trial circuit to keep entire litters until the puppies were old enough to be evaluated in the field (often a year or more). Those not chosen for field ability would be given away or sold for a nominal fee. These people were genuinely interested in improving the breed, not making money from it.


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

nu2poodles said:


> I find it a bit odd that you and others here should be so annoyed by these crosses (or the promotion of them) when every breed recognized by every sort of kennel club started out the very same way at some historical moment.


There are many reasons to be "annoyed by these crosses," and your post actually references a big one:

"That these "Doodle" breeders (and others) are able to get such enormous prices for these animals, especially when there are so many in rescue everywhere...."

It's heartbreaking to see all the doodles in rescues or listed on petfinder.com. Why is there such a preponderance of abandoned and discarded poodle crosses? Certainly one explanation is the purchasing family was misled or misinformed about the physical and behavioral traits of their cute puppy.

They thought they were getting a hypoallergenic designer "hybrid" that embodied the best of both breeds but instead, find themselves in over their heads with a dog that doesn't look or behave in a predictable way.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

minipoodlelover said:


> There are many reasons to be "annoyed by these crosses," and your post actually references a big one:
> 
> "That these "Doodle" breeders (and others) are able to get such enormous prices for these animals, especially when there are so many in rescue everywhere...."
> 
> It's heartbreaking to see all the doodles in rescues or listed on petfinder.com. Why is there such a preponderance of abandoned and discarded poodle crosses? ...


The number of dogs (of every description) in rescue, or worse ..., is heartbreaking, not just the number of doodles.

It would be interesting to know the ratio of "purebred" Poodles to Poodle crosses that are in need of permanent, loving homes (not just those on Petfinder). How many are from accidental breedings (since the concern is with those that are being bred for profit), etc. ? How did you determine that there is a preponderance of crosses ?


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

I don't know about other dog breeds; I've only looked at the number of poodle crosses compared to purebred poodles. The numbers speak for themselves.

And yes! It's so sad to see all the dogs in need of a home. I can hardly look at petfinder because of that. My next dog will be a rescue.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm not completely sure how exactly I feel about doodle anything! I mean it's an excuse for puppy mills and backyard breeders to make loads of cash without putting the animals best interest first and that's ALWAYS a sad thing. Ive met a lot of very sweet labradoodles and other poodle mixes but if a person is exploiting a breed/s to generate a higher cash flow.... there's nothing good about that.
If a person is adopting a "doodle" type from a rescue there's nothing wrong with that.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

nu2poodles said:


> There is a solution, of course : take the money out of dog breeding. As an example : it was not uncommon for people on the field trial circuit to keep entire litters until the puppies were old enough to be evaluated in the field (often a year or more). Those not chosen for field ability would be given away or sold for a nominal fee. These people were genuinely interested in improving the breed, not making money from it.


How amazing would this be for pet owners everywhere! 

My attitude towards doodles is the same as towards any irresponsible breeder, bybs, puppy mills, etc. And also purebred breeders that charge $2000-$3000 for a puppy, testing or not. Honestly, I don't think pet ownership should be a rich man's privilege. Even some rescues charge more than $500 to adopt an adult! 
I'd much rather by a puppy from an oops litter for $100, then put the rest of the thousands into its care.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Arcticfox-- I agree with you totally. I found a great, ethical registered breeder locally and she only charged me $300 for a CKC registered puppy. Has a lifetime temperament and health guarantee, has been tested for hips, eyes, knees and so has his parents and grandparents. I was very blessed to find my sweet puppy and I cant wait to bring him home (Friday) yayyy!


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Poodlepup1 said:


> Arcticfox-- I agree with you totally. I found a great, ethical registered breeder locally and she only charged me $300 for a CKC registered puppy. Has a lifetime temperament and health guarantee, has been tested for hips, eyes, knees and so has his parents and grandparents. I was very blessed to find my sweet puppy and I cant wait to bring him home (Friday) yayyy!


That's amazing! I wish I'd been able to find a breeder like that where I'm from. I think the lowest price I've seen in Ontario from an ethical breeder is $1200 for an spoo. Perhaps I wasn't looking hard enough, but I'd pretty much given up on finding someone who sells their pet quality pups for a nominal fee.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

I was very blessed when I found him. I just met him yesterday evening and we decided he was perfect for us! He's not a standard however he is a large mini... I'm in love


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Oh and I'm from Saskatchewan... maybe prices are a bit lower here??


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

Poodlepup1 said:


> ... it's an excuse for puppy mills and backyard breeders to make loads of cash without putting the animals best interest first and that's ALWAYS a sad thing....but if a person is exploiting a breed/s to generate a higher cash flow.... there's nothing good about that.
> ....


Plenty of "purebreds" (-- many more than "doodlebreds" --) come from puppy mills and bybreeders. Everything else being equal (e.g. health testing, costs, price, etc.), why is breeding a "good" cross and selling it any more exploitative than breeding a "purebred" (by say, the AKC definition) and selling it ?


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Poodlepup1 said:


> Oh and I'm from Saskatchewan... maybe prices are a bit lower here??


Was reading this post and saw you are from Saskatchewan. Sunny, my cream mini is from Tyramara in Saskatchewan, a small home breeder. Denise is wonderful and I just found out that Sunny is a grandpa! His son had pups 3 days ago. Gee, and he just turned 4!


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## momofthree (Apr 9, 2011)

nu2poodles said:


> Plenty of "purebreds" (-- many more than "doodlebreds" --) come from puppy mills and bybreeders. Everything else being equal (e.g. health testing, costs, price, etc.), why is breeding a "good" cross and selling it any more exploitative than breeding a "purebred" (by say, the AKC definition) and selling it ?


I think the problem is finding a "good cross" . I looked into doodles briefly, and what I found is that since good breeders of purebreds will not sell to doodle breeders, these breeders have to resort to using less than stellar examples of the breeds to be mixed. This is a concern both for health reasons ( many of these byb dogs have not been health tested, may have higher coi, etc.) And for temperament. 

So, what you are getting is a low quality mixed breed pup for a top quality price. That is what I couldn't swallow about the doodles. 

It would be a different thing if Aus. labradoodles somehow got recognized as a breed, and were bred to quality animals with some goal in mind, by responsible breeders. But my research on the origins of this fad, and all of the shenanigans that went on at Rutland in Aus. , has led me to believe that it is not likely to happen. There is no one at the helm to responsibly guide the doodles into it's own breed status. What I have seen is that housewives and such are using breeding doodles as a way to make a quick and very substantial income at home and know nothing ( probably care nothing) about genetics, canine behavior, etc. I would much rather pay a poodle breeder who has years of experience behind her/ him for a well bred pup with low COI , etc. Just my .02 .


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

I'm not entirely sure of the definition of COI, but I thought it represented genetic diversity. So, wouldn't any mixed breed puppy have a lower COI by virtue of having parents of entirely different breeds? I mean, unless the parents were horribly inbred. I'm no expert on genetics, but I did have a brief introductory course on the basics for my bachelor's degree. I thought the problem with inbreeding was the increased risk of recessive genes being passed from both parents thus being expressed in the offspring, as well as any problem with both parents being enhanced in the offspring - like shallow hips. With a mixed breed, it's rare for both parents to carry the same recessive gene for a certain disorder. I'm sure it's much more complicated than that but in any textbook and paper I've read, greater genetic diversity (within the same species) has always been a good thing (for health), with the exception being if the 2 breeds are too different in size or shape, ie great dane x chihuahua would probably be a bad idea. 
I'm not condoning the breeding of designer dogs, because, as people have mentioned, the parents are rarely exemplary members of their breeds, but if all else were equal in the parents - genetics, health, temperament, price, etc, I'd rather buy a mixed breed dog than a purebred. All else is hardly ever equal though, unfortunately.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

One of my grooming clients previously had a yorkie, and now has a goldendoodle puppy. We talked about grooming and she is trying, but she has no idea how high-maintenance a doodle coat is. Worse than a poodle, IMO.

I've groomed shedding doodles, :laugh:

We talked about the breeding process (she has an f3). But she didn't understand that a puppy doesn't really get 50/50 genes from each parent. In numbers, yes. But the recessive genes don't matter (unless you're breeding). So your "50/50" doodle might be 80% golden/lab/cocker.

Anyway, the doodle thing benefited me by my pup's breeder lowering prices. I got him at a steal for $1,000.

The thing that makes me angry is when the RESCUES are trying to PROFIT off of the doodles. $300 adoption fee for a 14 yr old blind and diabetic dog. Ridiculous. But that is another topic.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Arcticfox said:


> I'm not entirely sure of the definition of COI, but I thought it represented genetic diversity. So, wouldn't any mixed breed puppy have a lower COI by virtue of having parents of entirely different breeds? I mean, unless the parents were horribly inbred. I'm no expert on genetics, but I did have a brief introductory course on the basics for my bachelor's degree. I thought the problem with inbreeding was the increased risk of recessive genes being passed from both parents thus being expressed in the offspring, as well as any problem with both parents being enhanced in the offspring - like shallow hips. With a mixed breed, it's rare for both parents to carry the same recessive gene for a certain disorder. I'm sure it's much more complicated than that but in any textbook and paper I've read, greater genetic diversity (within the same species) has always been a good thing (for health), with the exception being if the 2 breeds are too different in size or shape, ie great dane x chihuahua would probably be a bad idea.
> I'm not condoning the breeding of designer dogs, because, as people have mentioned, the parents are rarely exemplary members of their breeds, but if all else were equal in the parents - genetics, health, temperament, price, etc, I'd rather buy a mixed breed dog than a purebred. All else is hardly ever equal though, unfortunately.


I used to breed rabbits, and there is a big emphasis in rabbits in genotyping them. Rabbits are usually tighly linebred, but aften outcrossed. In rabbits, they are considered purebred 4 generations after an outcross.

I know a breeder who outcrosses to "maintain vigor". One of his problems with AKC is that outcrossing is NEVER allowed. Of course it is done, hush hush.

An example of mixing a breed to IMPROVE it is the pug x beagle mix (puggle). I don't think they're cute, but I'm happy to see people breeding dogs that can BREATHE!

I think many doodle dogs are inbred. Rather than breed MANY poodle x lab/golden/cocker pairs, they use one. Then breed back to usually a poodle. If you are crossbreeding for vigor, the f2 generation should truly be f2, with both parents being f1 crosses. Each generation gets more and more inbred with backyard breeders. It CAN be done right, but I don't trust a backyard breeder to do it right.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

tortoise said:


> I used to breed rabbits, and there is a big emphasis in rabbits in genotyping them. Rabbits are usually tighly linebred, but aften outcrossed. In rabbits, they are considered purebred 4 generations after an outcross.
> 
> I know a breeder who outcrosses to "maintain vigor". One of his problems with AKC is that outcrossing is NEVER allowed. Of course it is done, hush hush.
> 
> ...


When you say outcross, do you mean paired with unrelated individual of the same breed? Why is that not allowed? Or is it paired with unrelated individual of a different breed? That I can see being disallowed. 

I see your point in the inbreeding of doodles, I hadn't given that part much thought because the majority of doodles I've come across are F1. I didn't see any ancestry info in the few F2 litters around - probably because they didn't want to advertise the inbreeding. 

What do you mean by line breeding? Wikipedia had only one sentence to say about it in their outcrossing article.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Linebreeding is breeding back to the parent, aunt, uncle, grandparent, etc.

I had a dog that was 3 times linebred on a particular sire. Who was out of two dogs that were euthanized after a bad dog attack. She was too tightly linebred and started showing aggressive behaviors, unpredictable. She was too dangerous and I had to euthanize, very sad. I raised her from a pup and she was a highly trainable dog.

Linebreeding will enhance or destroy, depending on the genotype. I know an airedale breeder that linebreeds. He happens to have excellent bloodlines and it has been working well for him for generations. The breeder of the linebred dog I had soon ruined his breeding program and he has moved on to a hybrid breed.

Outcrossing I mean to a different breed. 

Apparently f4 is the magic number for getting consistent results. I do not know if that is true or not. I don't remember where I heard that but I'm sure it was in reference to doodles.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

nu2poodles-- I wasn't attempting to say that puppy mill breeders are any less exploitive when they breed crossbreed as opposed to purebreds (although technically in order to be considered "pure" they have to have been registered). I think that any breeder-- puppy mill, backyard breeder or even a registered breeder-- can take advantage and charge too much money for ANY type or breed of puppy. 
It's a very sad situation but it's a case of supply and demand. There needs to be more education concerning proper breeding ethics. 
I've seen "backyard breeders" that have more ethics then registered breeders...


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

tortoise said:


> ...
> 
> We talked about the breeding process (she has an f3). But she didn't understand that a puppy doesn't really get 50/50 genes from each parent. In numbers, yes. But the recessive genes don't matter (unless you're breeding). So your "50/50" doodle might be 80% golden/lab/cocker.
> 
> ...


I don't quite follow you here. Are you saying that, in an f3 breeding the offspring may not be 50% Poodle & 50% whatever else (true), or are you really claiming that the offspring does not inherit half its genes from each parent (which is false, I think -- the offspring _does _inherit half its genes from each parent, so the first cross pups, at least, are 50%Poodle/50%whatever) ?


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

nu2poodles said:


> I don't quite follow you here. Are you saying that, in an f3 breeding the offspring may not be 50% Poodle & 50% whatever else (true), or are you really claiming that the offspring does not inherit half its genes from each parent (which is false, I think -- the offspring _does _inherit half its genes from each parent, so the first cross pups, at least, are 50%Poodle/50%whatever) ?


Yes, in numbers a puppy recieves the same number of genes from each parent. (genotype)

But no, that doesn't mean the puppy is an equal mix of the parents. Only half of the genes from each parent are expressed. (phenotype) So a puppy can have 50/50 genotype, but that puppy might very different from 50/50 in phenotype. This is why some doodle are very poodle, or very not. 

Does that make sense better?


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Well people can have their labradoodles!!! I have my POODLE!!!


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

tortoise said:


> Yes, in numbers a puppy recieves the same number of genes from each parent. (genotype)
> 
> But no, that doesn't mean the puppy is an equal mix of the parents. Only half of the genes from each parent are expressed. (phenotype) So a puppy can have 50/50 genotype, but that puppy might very different from 50/50 in phenotype. This is why some doodle are very poodle, or very not.
> 
> Does that make sense better?


Yes, thanks. I'm not sure, though, why you claim that "only half the genes" from each parent are expressed. Wouldn't this depend on the specific genes inherited (whether they are dominant or recessive or participate in some more complex combination)? So, the pup inherits 50% of its genes from each parent and _some percentage of that 50%_ are dominant & expressed and _some percentage_ are recessive and not expressed (oversimplified for the sake of clarity). But it's not the case that _half_ the genes from the dam, e.g., (half of the 50% that she contributes) will be dominant, hence expressed. It could be more or it could be less. That's the basis for the notion of prepotence, is it not? Also, I think _this_ is why "... some doodle are very poodle, or very not."

I apologize if I have misunderstood what you have said. 

So we can predict some obvious things like coat color, and other things through experience with particular dogs that are "prepotent" for certain traits, but there remain many (many) things that we cannot predict.


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## .wesss (Feb 7, 2012)

Countryboy said:


> "A lot of people don't want a poodle, because it's the pedigree with a pedicure," Animal Fair's Diamond says. "People who are into poodles are into arts, wine and culture."
> 
> I wonder who created that impression, eh?  Could it be the Poodle Clubs?


As a 21 year old male in college.. I guess that couldn't be further from the truth. 
Maybe I should start picking up wine and cheese


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

nu2poodles said:


> Yes, thanks. I'm not sure, though, why you claim that "only half the genes" from each parent are expressed.
> 
> ...
> 
> I apologize if I have misunderstood what you have said.


We're saying the same thing in different ways. Each gene is made up of 2 alleles, which I called "half". Here's a simplified explanation for everyone, I think you understand it already though.

Let's say there are only 2 colors in dogs, and that mom is blue and dad is black, and we call the gene "B". Puppy will get a "B" gene from each parent. _But it can't be blue and black at the same time. _So one of the alleles (half of the gene) will be dominant (we will see it) and one will be recessive (can't see it but can be passed on to puppy's babies). When we describe a gene, it has 2 letters. "B" for the dominant allele and "b" for the recessive gene. A black puppy is BB (is black and will produce only black puppies) or Bb (is black and can produce black and blue puppies). A blue puppy is bb (is blue and can produce black and blue puppies. So if mom is blue (bb) and dad is black (Bb), the possible genotypes they can produce are Bb, bb. The puppies could be blue or black, and can produce blue or black. Google Punnet square, for the diagram and you can calculate the probability of what a litter will produce.

Of course, this is a really simple example assuming that there are only 2 colors, but there are many colors and multiple genes for each color.

We can make predictions because we develop a sense of which traits are dominant. Clearly, poodle hair is dominant over other hair types. But that doesn't mean that we don't see the recessive hair types in the f1 generation. There's a 1 in 4 chance of getting the recessive gene in the first generation. When the recessive trait is not desired, that dog should not be bred. Ideally, one homozygous dogs of the trait should be bred, this would completely "stop" the recessive gene and it could not be passed on to the next generation. But there are so many traits desired/required when breeding dogs and so many genes that influence them, that breeders have to use rational thought and experience of their bloodline to have reasonable expectations of what they can and cannot produce. This escapes most backyard breeders, many breed the dogs they think are "cute" regardless of structure or temperament.


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## cdnchick (Jan 1, 2012)

LOL... the science nerd in me is loving the genetics geno/phenotyping discussion that's going on in here.

On the original topic at hand, I don't think people who want to buy "doodles" should be chastised for doing so. Educated or not, it is their decision (and perhaps they did do their research) and by no means should someone be telling them what they can and can't do. 

I know it's a pretty big deal for some to have some sort of "KC" registered purebred dog, but the prices for some of those dogs do get quite exorbitant... yes, I understand there's all sorts of genetic testing, health checks etc. that go into the breeding process, but like someone said earlier, they were able to get a registered poodle for $600 or so. 

Food for thought, perhaps if the price of a registered purebred wasn't so high ($1000 or over), there may be less puppy mills or backyard breeders trying to cash in on the industry.

All of that being said, in response to the article about people wanting doodles for their poodle-like qualities (specifically the non-shedding hair), I've seen some pretty interesting hair phenotypes in a significant percentage of doodles I've come across. Given the level of matting I've seen, I don't think that people think there's less grooming involved with a doodle, I think that they just don't bother to groom their dog, period. That would probably be the case, even if they had a poodle.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

cdnchick-- I agree with you when you say let people make their own decisions. A person can't dictate over another. However I disagree with you on the pricing.... your statement was that registered dogs are high in price but I have seen many situations where puppy mills or backyard breeders make more money off of crossbred animals (like the labradoodle or the goldendoodle). I'm getting CKC registered mini puppy (including all health tests and guarantees) for $300. Reduced in price because of age (16 weeks) and because of "undesirable" coloration (phantom).


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Poodlepup1 said:


> Reduced in price because of age (16 weeks) and because of "undesirable" coloration (phantom).


LMBO!! Oh those Phantoms! Sooooo undesirable, eh?  

Wouldn't ya just cringe iff'n ya had to take a dog that looked anything like these? lol


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## cdnchick (Jan 1, 2012)

Poodlepup1 said:


> your statement was that registered dogs are high in price but I have seen many situations where puppy mills or backyard breeders make more money off of crossbred animals (like the labradoodle or the goldendoodle). I'm getting CKC registered mini puppy (including all health tests and guarantees) for $300. Reduced in price because of age (16 weeks) and because of "undesirable" coloration (phantom).


I think that's great that you're able to get a registered poodle for $300 (you really got a great deal), however, that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't seem possible to get a registered standard puppy around these parts (Southern Ontario) for under $1000, regardless of age or colouring. And that's if they are older/not of favourable colouring. Never mind trying to get one from a new puppy litter that's of a favourable colouring, you're looking at $1200-1600 _minimum_. 

So really? A potential buyer is asked to pay extra because the poodle is red/brown over black/apricot? Does that make a better dog? I understand there is demand for certain coloured poodles but when so-called registered breeders (disclaimer: not a knock against all breeders) decide to up the price on a certain coat colour, that seems pretty unethical to me... registered or not. I'd be more than happy to hear any clarifications from breeders on this forum regarding this practice... please correct me if there are specific legitimate reasons for this practice. 

And to be honest, I'm not sure where the $3500 price tag for a doodle is coming from... I haven't been able to find one (not that I did an overly extensive search, mind you) that's over $1000.


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## momofthree (Apr 9, 2011)

It's the multi- generational "Austrailian " doodles that are going for 2,500.00- 2,800.00 . That is the standard price in the US across the country....and people are lining up to buy them. I don't completely get it, but to each their own.


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

To add a little humor to this topic.......

Labradoodle vs. Mutt: The Real Cost of Owning a Dog: Putting a Price Tag on Your Pet - Bloomberg


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Oh wow those phantoms are amazing! 

I haven't heard of these Australian doodles... maybe it's not very popular in Canada yet?
What I've notice regarding pricing is that there seems to be a much wider range of prices with doodles, I've seen $500 to $2500, wheras standard poodles are $1200 to $2000. This is just the ads and websites I've come across, not comprehensive by any means. 

Re: Punnet squares:
Oh gawd the horror. I remember doing 16 grid squares for a mix of autosomal and sex linked traits in fruit flies. Ehck.


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## cdnchick (Jan 1, 2012)

Arcticfox said:


> I haven't heard of these Australian doodles... maybe it's not very popular in Canada yet?


Ditto. It wouldn't surprise me if we started seeing them around very soon. 



Arcticfox said:


> Re: Punnet squares:
> Oh gawd the horror. I remember doing 16 grid squares for a mix of autosomal and sex linked traits in fruit flies. Ehck.


Gonna have to disagree here: I loved Punnet squares. I know, total OCD science geek over here.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

cdnchick said:


> ...
> Food for thought, perhaps if the price of a registered purebred wasn't so high ($1000 or over), there may be less puppy mills or backyard breeders trying to cash in on the industry.
> ...


Yep ! The dog industry in general is so lucrative that even _National Geographic_ is finding ways to exploit it ..., and after having no contact with the AKC for many years, I was surprised (and somewhat disgusted) to see how commercial it has become ...


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## rikkia (Nov 5, 2011)

I haven't had chance to read the article yet as I was too engrossed in the thread but on the subject of Aus. Doodles I can't help but want to share this little tit-bit..

There is a woman on my local park who has a doodle who in her words "His father was a FIFTH GENERATION Australian Labradoodle thank you very much, So I don't see why he is any less of a pedigree than your poodle"! She seems to think that all of use members of the "Poodle Squad" on the park (of which there are 4 standard, 2 mini and 1 toy owner who go on the park daily) seem to have notions of our dogs being superior to her doodle.

If she is any indicator of even a fraction of doodle owners globally, then expect demands for breed registration sometime soon.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

cdnchick-- what the breeder means by "undesirable" is that you can't show a dog that's multi colored. According to the CKC (I don't know about other registries) you can only SHOW a SOLID colored poodle. I can assure you she is VERY ethical. I wouldn't adopt from her if she wasn't an ethical breeder. She's not in it for the money, she's in it for the breed. 
I have seen doodles up to 2000 dollars.


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## cdnchick (Jan 1, 2012)

Poodlepup1 said:


> cdnchick-- what the breeder means by "undesirable" is that you can't show a dog that's multi colored. According to the CKC (I don't know about other registries) you can only SHOW a SOLID colored poodle. I can assure you she is VERY ethical. I wouldn't adopt from her if she wasn't an ethical breeder. She's not in it for the money, she's in it for the breed.
> I have seen doodles up to 2000 dollars.


I think you missed my point. By no means was I implying that your particular breeder was being unethical... and I truly do think you got a great deal on your poodle (btw, I've seen registered parti poodles go for $1000+, standards, mind you... not sure if there is a $$ difference between minis and standards). 

What I was trying to point out was that there are breeders out there who are selling SOLID coloured registered poodles from the same litter at varying prices because of their colouring (i.e. apricot vs. red, the latter being more expensive). Please explain to me how this is an ethical practice... perhaps I'm missing something here.

I'm also not disputing that there are doodles that sell for up to $2000, only that I haven't come across any in my not-so-extensive search (as mentioned in my previous post).


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

cdnchick-- I would have to agree with you on it being unethical to charge more for a specific color. I chose my dog according to temperament NOT coloration). I got defensive of my breeder because she is very open and honest and loves her dogs. I apologize if I seemed rude 
I think that phantoms are beautiful!!! They are unique and had never heard of them until I saw mine and then googled it! Lol


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## cdnchick (Jan 1, 2012)

Poodlepup1: No worries. I don't blame you for defending your breeder. I would have done the same if I thought someone was casting aspersions on my breeder's practice. Glad we got that sorted out and really happy that you're over-the-moon about your puppy!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Uggh, I don't like phantom poodles. I groom a phantom toy poodle. I thought he was a yorkie mix for a long time because of his color! I don't like the fancy named. That's a "black and tan" color pattern.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

rikkia said:


> There is a woman on my local park who has a doodle who in her words "His father was a FIFTH GENERATION Australian Labradoodle thank you very much, So I don't see why he is any less of a pedigree than your poodle"! She seems to think that all of use members of the "Poodle Squad" on the park (of which there are 4 standard, 2 mini and 1 toy owner who go on the park daily) seem to have notions of our dogs being superior to her doodle.
> 
> *If she is any indicator of even a fraction of doodle owners globally, then expect demands for breed registration sometime soon*.


 Bold mine.

I doubt that the AKC will ever recognize the doodle as a breed any time soon. They've been breeding the labradoodles in Australia for over 30 year (I think) and are still not recognized as a breed by Australian Club.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Tortoise-- you don't like a poodle because of their coloration?? Lol that's kind of stupid. Speaking of genotypes and phenotypes--- it's a gene that she's not sure of WHY exactly it's happening. She's never bred any poodles that were phantom or "black and tan" (sorry I wasn't specifying the way you preferred). It's just a gene mixed JUST the right way to create a phantom (his mom is chocolate and his dad is black, both of his grandparents are black). She's not breeding for this color it just pops up occasionally and she homes these puppies on a spay/neuter contract.
As I said before... I care about temperament and personality. Something you seem to be lacking.


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## cdnchick (Jan 1, 2012)

tortoise said:


> Uggh, I don't like phantom poodles. I groom a phantom toy poodle. I thought he was a yorkie mix for a long time because of his color! I don't like the fancy named. That's a "black and tan" color pattern.


Sorry... wha?? I thought you might have been joking at first (perhaps you are?) but it seems from the rest of your post that you're actually serious. 

Are you really discriminating against a particular coat colour of a poodle? Maybe you meant to say "I don't like _the name_ phantom poodles" because I'm sure there are quite a few phantom owners on this forum who would strongly disagree with your statement.

My last 0.02 for this particular line of hijacked thread topic.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

.wesss said:


> As a 21 year old male in college.. I guess that couldn't be further from the truth.
> Maybe I should start picking up wine and cheese


You can start the trend ... poodles are for people who like beer and nacho chips :smile:.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

tortoise said:


> Uggh, I don't like phantom poodles. I groom a phantom toy poodle. I thought he was a yorkie mix for a long time because of his color! I don't like the fancy named. That's a "black and tan" color pattern.


Ye olde timey cowboys used to say "a good horse is never a bad colour". Applies to dogs, too, in my view. Who cares what colour the coat is?


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> Ye olde timey cowboys used to say "a good horse is never a bad colour". Applies to dogs, too, in my view. Who cares what colour the coat is?


lol - I was just thinking of that quote. 
I didn't think I liked the phantom pattern either, until I saw some nicely groomed ones. I like how the bracelets are a different color than the body. It's kind of fun. BTW, why is it called 'phantom' instead of black and tan?
'course, I still want to know why merle dachshunds are called dapple.......


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I was rather unsure about the phantoms and partis, having been brought up with the idea that poodles-are-solid-colours-only, until I saw some of the gorgeous dogs on here. Bella was the first to win me over - beautiful girl!

I'd be very unhappy at anyone trying to breed merle colouring into poodles though - now there is a dangerous gene.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Actually, they already have thrown the merle gene in. I am not sure what they used to get it there, but I agree - can be very dangerous in the wrong (read: uneducated) hands.

I have had my share of heartache with various herding breeds and that pattern. Although, I do love the merles I have and have had. I am more comfortable with the solid colored versions of my chosen herding breed. Scary thing is the cryptic merles, I have one now and if I didn't know better, I'd swear she were a solid. With the wrong male, the resulting litter would be a travisty.


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## lrkellly (Jan 6, 2012)

tokipoke said:


> A man at the dog park (who owns a giant Rottweiler) saw Leroy and told me "Your poodle is the most UN-girly dog I've ever seen." As Leroy walked by, covered in mud, tongue hanging out, smiling and panting. I pointed out he's manly with nice blue nail polish on his nails (the mud really makes the blue stand out!), soooo why's it a bad thing for the poodle to have the pedigree with a pedicure?? Lol


I just want to take this opportunity to say that I LOVE Leroy's pedicure! Its so progressively androgynous .


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

lrkellly said:


> I just want to take this opportunity to say that I LOVE Leroy's pedicure! Its so progressively androgynous .


Geez, thanks! 
I just love it when you guys make me burst out laughing - I'm at work for gosh sake!

_*snicker* androgynous hehe_


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

The thing is..., my puppy ISNT black and tan. He looks like a black to the untrained eye. If you look very closely you can see just a tiny bit of silver coming through where it would be tan on a "black and tan". I don't have any clue why breeders call it a phantom though.... I was just calling it that because that's how I heard of it being referred to.
May I ask what is so risky about the Merle gene?


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## stealthq (Aug 4, 2011)

Let's say M is the 'normal' gene and m is merle.

The merle gene is one of those that if the dog is MM (normal color) or Mm (merled color), you're good. But, if you get mm, the dog is mostly white and usually has health issues - blindness (some pups are born without eyes), deafness, other defects.

It's not normally a problem, because educated breeders know this and almost never breed a merle to a merle. They are also careful not to breed a merle to a sable because it can produce a dog that is merle and doesn't look it, leading to accidental merle to merle breedings. I say almost, because a few still want to push the limits and breed a healthy double merle, which does occasionally happen, because such a dog is an advantage for a breeder who focuses on merles.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

If I can fugure out how to post a picture, I can show you an example of what can happen with a merle to merle breeding. (Don't worry, she has a great home already)


Sad thing is, she's probably one of the sweetest pups ever, nothing but snuggles. There's also a good chance she may go deaf as well. 
(Please, no bashing, there's a loooong story behind this breeding)


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Yes, double merle is majorly bad. Apparently, the rough collie that won at Westminster is sired by a double merle who was never shown, as he's blind.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

That is sad, as many rough collies as we have here, they couldn't have found one with normal vision? How do you screen for eye issues if he's already blind? 
The pup in the above photo will NEVER be used for breeding although, she will help start a genetic database for her breed here in the states and while doing her part to help future generations, she will be a spoiled rotton house pet, living with a friend of mine so I can check up on her any time I want to. 

(I actually contacted OFA - they had no info whatsoever on Australian Koolies, we are now trying to figure out what all needs to be tested). Gee maybe I can actually do some good for a breed....


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