# Rally sign questions, ask here



## snow0160

I am very very new to Rally. I have a few questions:
1. Can you chose your own hand signals or are there established ones?
2. I know they deduct points in competitions and look for precision. What level precision? For example, in our obedience class, stay means no movement of any kind. Is that the same for the Halt sign?
3. The rally classes are monitored but no one is there to provide formal training. It is more of a practice run through environment. Who do you go when you need help? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## zooeysmom

*1. Can you chose your own hand signals or are there established ones?* You can do whatever hand signals you want, but no luring hands (I try to keep a flat guiding hand so it will never look like luring). And you can't touch the dog in the ring. Only exception I can think of is the stand in Intermediate and Advanced, in which you can touch the dog to get it in a stand. 

*2. I know they deduct points in competitions and look for precision. What level precision? For example, in our obedience class, stay means no movement of any kind. Is that the same for the Halt sign?* For the halt sign, the dog must sit without getting up (but it can move its head, doesn't have to be a robot statue). If it sits crookedly, you could lose a point or two. 

*3. The rally classes are monitored but no one is there to provide formal training. It is more of a practice run through environment. Who do you go when you need help? * Our training club just added a new class where they teach beginners how to do each sign. Once they've mastered the basics, they can move up to the competition run-through classes--one is Novice through Advanced and the other is Excellent and Master. I never got the benefit of learning the signs correctly the first time. My first trainer did not compete in rally, so she had us doing a mish-mash of signs and not all correctly. I basically had to learn everything on my own, but get corrections from my competition trainers. I also watched a ton of YouTube videos, went to a foundations obedience class to learn the pivot, and I recently bought Dee Dee Anderson's DVD for Advanced, which has been extremely helpful.


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## Caddy

This is a great thread, I'm thinking of trying rally again too. I took an introductory class awhile back and found some of the signs frustrating, and poorly worded.


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## lily cd re

snow0160 said:


> I am very very new to Rally. I have a few questions:
> 1. Can you chose your own hand signals or are there established ones?
> 2. I know they deduct points in competitions and look for precision. What level precision? For example, in our obedience class, stay means no movement of any kind. Is that the same for the Halt sign?
> 3. The rally classes are monitored but no one is there to provide formal training. It is more of a practice run through environment. Who do you go when you need help?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I agree with everything zooeysmom said with the following other comments.


1. You aren't required to use a signal. You can use verbals and the verbals can be any words you want.


2. If you get to a halt sit as long as the dog stays sitting you are good, probably won't even lose much in the lower classes if they sit sloppy or resettle the sit. If they stand up and sit again that is a biggy on points, perhaps even NQ.


3. I only ever took one rally class with Lily way back when we started and did it mostly to support my club and because I liked the teachers. Ever since then I have trained everything on my own for Lily, Peeves and Javelin for rally: RN for Javelin, RN and RA for Peeves and 12 rally titles for Lily and masters in three more legs. Get a rally rule book from AKC or get one of the AKC rally quick guides here Rally Store Both of those resources will have pictures of the signs and descriptions of how they work.


If anyone is still stuck on anything just ask. I don't know CKC, UKC or WCRL rally very well, but I know just about everything you need to know for AKC rally and other people on PF like Skylar and mvhplank know the other venues.


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## mashaphan

We have a lot of ASCA up here,too. Generally,the judges in rally are less "fussy" than obedience. SOME are even generous:eyebrows:

I had a terrible times with directionals until one trainer said "360s are just cirlce left or circle right" which I remembered from the years I did obedience as an almost teen! I still have to THINK about which way to go most times,and for the life of me,I cannot master Otter's current training collar! Thankfully ,I have friends!

Martha ,Che and Otter WildMan


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## Click-N-Treat

Any ideas on how to clean up a circle left? Noelle's circle right is tight to me, but her circle left isn't as clean.


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## lily cd re

You can try a number of things. Do large circle lefts and work on keeping her in position and make the circles gradually smaller and small but not going smaller until she is correct on large circles. You can also use a cone, jump stanchion or even a chair as an obstacle around which to practice. Those ideas are not mutually exclusive.


The other thing to think about is having a different order for circle left and circle right. For Lily any time she is going around the outside (360 right and 270 left) I tell her circles. For any time she is turning on the inside I tell her back (360 left and 270 right).


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## Click-N-Treat

In public when we have to execute a circle left I am usually pushing a shopping cart. I always say, “turning.” Noelle is very good at this. It’s less nice without a shopping cart. I use “around” for circle right. We will go in wider circles and then tighten them. Noelle will get better with practice.


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## Skylar

We're competing in WCRL. I chose to compete there first because they allow you to use food rewards after "stationary exercises". Stationary exercises are basically when the dog ends in a sit or down position.

Babykins was very food driven and I had a hard time withdrawing treats long enough to compete. I thought being able to give her some treats while we compete in WCRL Rally would be a good way to prepare her for AKC Obedience where no treats are allowed. 

With AKC before you enter the ring, you must not have any treats on you (some people illegally hide food in their mouth but I can't do this). With WCRL you can walk up to the start sign in the ring and give your dog treats just before you begin. Then at "stationary signs" you can treat.

I keep mentioning stationary signs and treats - my reality was I was so nervous the first few times we competed that I was too scared to treat in case I made a mistake and treated at the end of a non-stationary sign which would earn a NQ. Dropping food will also NQ you. Treating your dog also slows you down; this is a timed event in which you must finish within a reasonable time and ribbons are awarded based on score and time is used to break a tie. In the end having that food in my pocket was a security blanket for me, not Babykins.

A savvy handler uses treats if their dog is losing focus - judicial use of a treat on the course can spark a better response. 

I haven't done AKC Rally, but many of the people who compete in WCRL locally also compete in AKC. My understanding is most of the signs are similar. 

There are some differences. In WCRL the dog has to heel on your right and move from front position into heel on the right. 

What I like is some of the exercises are helping prepare Babykins and I for more advanced Obedience. Jumps include a directed jump where your dog sits 6' off to the side while you walk to the other side, also 6' to the side - call your dog over the jump with just a simple hand motion and they have to come into front position. Dumbbell retrieve - the dumbbell is placed in the ring before you start - you heel around the dumbbell until you come to the dumbbell retrieve sign where you sent your dog to retrieve the dumbbell. 

There is a drop on recall and signal exercise as well which I'm not sure if these are also included in AKC Rally.

Where I train for WCRL the class is a mix of teaching the exercises as well as working courses and includes some novice obedience as well. What I love is that several of the people in my class are teaching WCRL rally in two other clubs. It's helpful to watch these experienced handlers and their dogs.


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## lily cd re

Skylar thanks for the WCRL perspective. I did level one with Lily way back when it was still APDT rally. I personally would probably be one of those who messes up with food, but the other parts that are similar to some open and utility exercises are certainly interesting.


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## mashaphan

Well,first of all,it is usually circles RIGHT that are the problem (lagging),so you are ahead of the game,in my eyes! Left turns.circles, are a matter of hind end awareness. Be sure your left shoulder turns,do lots of left pivots (train with treat outside dog's right nostril-i am not a teacher/trainer, and have refused such positions because I don't explain well . What works for my dog may not work for yours,etc) Turning on a perch helps with the hind end awareness,as well.

Martha et al


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## Skylar

lily cd re said:


> Skylar thanks for the WCRL perspective. I did level one with Lily way back when it was still APDT rally. I personally would probably be one of those who messes up with food, but the other parts that are similar to some open and utility exercises are certainly interesting.


Yes, I’m afraid of messing up too so it’s in my pocket as a security blanket but I’ve never used it. Unfortunately the rally signs don’t tell you if they are stationary or not. Add in the married signs which can change a the rules for treating making it more complicated


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## spindledreams

So far I have only done UKC rally while most signs are similar to AKC there are a few that are different. Like AKC no treats or toys are allowed in the ring. I am still competing in novice so have not worked on learning many of the advanced signs. I do know that a Novice course will have 15 to 17 signs not counting the start and finish signs. 
In my first trial I ran into one of the different signs or at least something I had not seen in my AKC oriented classes. Thankfully one of the more experienced exhibitors explained the sign to me and it is pretty simple and actually self explanatory but I was in panic mode and not thinking well after I saw the HALT, DOWN, SIT sign listed.
Thankfully that one was simple to do and the sign actually says it all. Stop (your dog should sit but you may give it a sit command) then down your dog, pause long enough to show your dog knows what down means, then tell it to sit again. Once sitting move to the next sign.


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## Skylar

Yes we have that halt, down sit sign too. 

I think another difference is you can onl give the command once, if you have to tell your dog to sit or down a second time, you lose points. You can give a hand signal with your verbal but that hand signal needs to be fast, not a slow drawn out one otherwise it looks like “luring” and you lose points or can get disqualified. 

With the huge change in rules last year they put an emphasis on heeling and the position your dog sits, lays down and comes in front.


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## spindledreams

UKC says :
1. Heel Position. The “heel position” in Traditional Obedience refers to the location of the dog with the dog’s head to shoulders in line with the Handler’s left hip. However, in Rally Obedience, perfect “heel” position is not required and is defined as the dog under control within no more than a 2-foot area at the handler’s left side. Heeling is done at a normal” pace and can is described as walking briskly and naturally with the dog moving in heel position whether the team is performing a specific exercise or heeling in between exercise stations

Wry grin this is one reason Jazz managed to earn her URO1 she didn't have to do a strict Obedience type heel which she tends to suck at.


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## lily cd re

spindledreams so true that heeling means something somewhat different in rally as opposed to obedience, but I would always aim for a better heel position in practicing rally than is required since things often don't look as good in trials as in practice.


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## lily cd re

So I'm stumped...


Some of you may recall that I have had a devil of a time getting Lily to think it was fun and a good idea to do the three masters signs that involve spins (clockwise, counter clockwise and dog and handler spin next to each other). We have worked very hard on it and now she is a spinning fiend, but I wrecked something else because my hand signals are too similar to each other for the spin counter clockwise and the back up three steps dog remains in position excellent sign. I need a new way to cue the back up since I don't want to do anything to take apart the spin. For the spin I am using my left hand held flat just above and in front of Lily's head and moving it in a circle in the direction she should turn. My back up signal had been hand flat over her head still but to her moving back as I took my three back steps. I verbally pre-cue the back up with a short two steps by me as I say get ready, but if I bring my left hand up over her head she spins. I will gladly take any suggestions.


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## Skylar

I may not be much help because I'm struggling with a stand hand signal from a distance - I have no problem when I'm standing next to her. But when I'm a few feet away facing her I don't have a good hand signal for stand. For sit I use my left hand and hold it out and upright so she sees my full hand - she sits when she sees the flat hand. For the drop I lift my right arm over my head with my hand facing her and she drops as she sees me lift my arm. For stand I'm just lifting my left arm up towards her - and it's clearly not working well and probably because she doesn't see much. What do you do?

One of my cues for backing up is I lift my left knee high forward almost like a marching step, then move my foot back as I step back. This movement of my knee doesn't look anything like when we're walking forward or running or walking slow - it's an odd thing. I keep my hand normally on my waist for heeling. As I'm moving my knee in that exaggerated position I also move my hand slightly off my waist so she sees the flat of my hand as I move my elbow back. The knee and arm movement is at the same time I command "back". In WCRL I have to keep any movement and verbal commands as one short total command.


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## Click-N-Treat

I can see why you don't want to take away from your spins. Hm, this is a stumper. In rally, we're allowed to use both hands, so what about swinging both arms backward? Back, back, back. Or, slowly transition your spin signals to your pointer finger, which is what I use. I use my pointer finger to indicate spins, but use a flat hand for all other moves.


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## lily cd re

Those ideas are all good possibilities! Thanks guys. Of course I only have a week until our entries next weekend. Since we are only doing masters I am probably going to bet on spins being almost a certainty and back up 3 steps being much less likely for next week, but then we will also be entered in early December too and have some time to fix it for that set of entries. I expect to have 9 masters legs after next week and then will do masters in the morning for the December trials (finish title presumably) and then try for a triple Q in the afternoon.


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## mashaphan

My instinct is not to change back up signal, as she knows that from years of Excellent. We may be able to make a slight adjustment to what you are doing somewhere at practice Friday.I,too,tend (or used to,anyway) to lift my left knee higher, as I say "Ready, AND (pause) back,back,back.

I am using different words/signals for Otter than I did for Che (don't ask me why, i don't really know:aetsch, and sometimes spit out the wrong command.Problem in and of itself, I suppose.

Martha


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## lily cd re

Martha that would be great if you could look at what we are doing and help me make sense out of it. My problem is that when I bring my hand up to show her my old back up signal she spins before she see the whole signal or hears me saying back back back. It is annoying since she has a great back up 3 steps but she isn't being patient enough to let me tell her that is what we are doing now that the silly girl loves to spin so well.


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## mashaphan

well,I was thinking more of what my Master's peeps could offer:adore:,but I will also take a look:biggrin1:. Weather is turning really winter-y,so i may not make it myself,but I will try. Gotta get outta the 6-10" expected tonight first!:afraid:

Martha et al


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## lily cd re

Uh oh! It is even supposed to snow down here on Thursday. I will be keeping my fingers crossed for the weather to be very clearly go or no go (hate in between forecasts). And yes I certainly know many of the rally people who show at SOTC that would have good suggestions. I hope we get there. Stay safe.


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## mashaphan

First suggestion from current trainer Lisa M-since Lily heels,don't use a hand signal for back up-keep hand at waist.just heel backward one step at a time,saying "back,back,back". May work,though this is not what she is used to doing.:dontknow:

Martha-more to follow,hopefully


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## Click-N-Treat

Stand – Leave – Down – Call Front – Finish – Sit

I encountered this baffling sign at my club on Monday. We do a mixed level run-through every week. We've done Masters signs at Novice level, which is helpful to get Noelle used to all the different stuff. However... Stand – Leave – Down – Call Front – Finish – Sit

Stand/stay while heeling. Got that. Leave. Got that part, too. And we know how to call front and finish and sit. How do I train Noelle that she can lie down without being three inches away from me? Every time I ask for a down, she walks toward me and lies down at my feet.

Ideas, please, because I'm clueless.


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## Skylar

Click-N-Treat said:


> Stand – Leave – Down – Call Front – Finish – Sit
> 
> I encountered this baffling sign at my club on Monday. We do a mixed level run-through every week. We've done Masters signs at Novice level, which is helpful to get Noelle used to all the different stuff. However... Stand – Leave – Down – Call Front – Finish – Sit
> 
> Stand/stay while heeling. Got that. Leave. Got that part, too. And we know how to call front and finish and sit. How do I train Noelle that she can lie down without being three inches away from me? Every time I ask for a down, she walks toward me and lies down at my feet.
> 
> Ideas, please, because I'm clueless.


You need something that blocks Noelle from moving forward. 

I’m working on something similar. I have two suggestions. One is to get a narrow pole such as a broom handle (I use the pvc pole from a jump) or a box like Saran Wrap. The second suggestion is a pvc uhey ( not sure what people call it but I made one using 3 pvc poles joined in a U shape and just large enough for a dog to lay down. Either way, with your dog in heel position walk them up to the edge. Tell them to “stay” while you move in front of them. Standing in front you down your dog. As they learn to go down in front of your feet, you slowly step further back. Once you are at the farthest distance you start to fade the item you used to block their movement.


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## lily cd re

Yuppers you need something to block Noelle from coming forward. You can either stand her in your front box when you leave or you can use a flat obstacle that you teach her to put her front feet on when you leave. Start with getting her to drop (or sit, there is a version like that too as I recall) with her at heel, then do it by taking just one step and facing her and then gradually increase the distance to what you need for that trick. If you use the block or board teach her to keep her front feet on it as she goes to the down. Also teach her to drop flat or front to back rather than back end down first to avoid getting a sit built in there.


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## mashaphan

The key is distance,gradually increasing -what do they say: Distance,Duration and something else-only work on one at a time. What the "blocker" is doing is encouraging the "fold back" down. What is her normal down, fold back or front feet first?

This is an excellent sign,so you have plenty of practice time . Not hard,just getting used to one you have not seen before:adore:

Martha


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## lily cd re

Distance, duration then distractions...


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## mashaphan

lily cd re said:


> Distance, duration then distractions...


Oh,yeah,my favorite (NOT) distractions:aetsch:. LIFE is Otter's distraction:argh:

Martha


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## lily cd re

mashaphan said:


> Oh,yeah,my favorite (NOT) distractions:aetsch:. LIFE is Otter's distraction:argh:
> 
> Martha



I hear you my friend, young men are so distractable!


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## Click-N-Treat

I got Noelle to stand in her pvc box and lie down from across the room. This needs work, but she picked up on it quickly. Her down is a fold back, or sometimes an instant collapse that’s too fast to see what she did. We will make this a daily game. Thanks for the suggestions.


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## lily cd re

As Noelle gets better at doing those position changes in the box you should reduce the box to just a small blocker in front of her, like a paint stir stick.


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## Click-N-Treat

Okay, I can do that with a paint stick. Thanks so much for the suggestions. I was lost. Also, the sit at a distance is a sign, too. Next time I see it, I'll at least have some idea what to do.


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## lily cd re

Teaching Noelle to do sit, down, stand in place from a distance will be the basis of the open command discrimination and utility signals. Aim high, go far!


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## Click-N-Treat

Noelle and I love training so much I am aiming high. Rally first and then onto obedience, too.


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## mashaphan

MY problem w/targets/blockers is Otter picking them up and running away!:ahhhhh:

Martha and the Wildman (and the good one,non-poodle though)


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## lily cd re

A local handler who is a private trainer had a client who liked the idea of his dog winning prizes so he signed her on as the dog's co-owner and had her show him in obedience and rally. He was a big goof ball of a lab who used to pick up the distraction bowls on figure eights. He also used to knock over signs and force the stewards to have to rebuild the course (not all the time but often enough that he had a bit of a reputation). So Martha not so bad since that was in trials.


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## Click-N-Treat

Noelle will now down on signal from as far away as my living room and dining room let me go. Her heel, stay, is also spot on. Quick learner! She doesn't need a stick to keep from moving forward, either. We will go back to the beginning and add sit in a little while.

My right 360 is tight to me. My left 360 looks like a poop emoji. Any ideas on how to tighten that up? We were working with an upside down dog dish and rotating into heel. I put her feet on a CD case (hey, at least they are useful for something) And she rotated around the cd, too. I took it away and Noelle lost her mind.

Am I on the right track? Any suggestions?

My rally trainers are going to scatter dog toys all over the rally ring next week for Noelle because she is very easily distracted. That's going to be... interesting. Make training harder than trialing and then trialing will be a piece of cake.


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## Click-N-Treat

Oh, and my class is going to have Advanced and Master's signs set up next week, instead of mixing excellent and Novice since no one is in Novice anymore. Noelle has a 12 inch jump height and bounces over that with great joy. Returning to heel afterward is a bit of a scramble, but she's only been off leash twice, so I can't be too hard on her.


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## lily cd re

*Spins and Back Ups*

I wrote above about my issues with Lily with spins and twists having now confused Lily's reading of my signal for back up 3 steps in heel position. I am happy to say that in the last couple of days we have made a ton of progress with these signs. Friday I ran rally run thrus at my club and although I put up an intermediate course since that was what most of the people who came are doing currently I used Lily to walk through the course to make sure I liked the set up and did some spins and twists instead of the signs I had out. I showed the people who were watching what was happening with my messed up back up signal and they all agreed that trying to get my hand out in front of Lily's line was not working since she was consistently spinning and all suggested trying to not use any signal for the back up 3 steps. I worked on cuing that just with a verbal and it has improved dramatically.


Today I took just Lily down to a place in New Jersey that I really like for a rally match at the Master level. Master was in one ring and all other levels were in the adjacent ring so even though there weren't a ton of people and dogs it was trial like in many ways. The judge for the Master course put up a nicely challenging course that had a spin right (twist is what I call that) and one of the master variations of the back up 3 steps where you go back three steps and then turn to back up one or two more steps, so we got to practice both of those skills that have been vexing for us. I signed up for two runs, but each of those was really two runs so we had four times through the course. The judge made a nice suggestion for the signal for the spin right to keep my hand lower than I have been doing. That seemed to really clarify things for Lily and should mean that eventually I can put back a signal for the back up 3 steps. By the time we finished our fourth time through the course I think she had it memorized.


We have a chance to practice again on Wednesday at my club since a friend on mine and I are running a match in advance of our Saturday rally trials. We will also practice on Friday morning before people show up for classes.


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## lily cd re

Click-N-Treat said:


> Oh, and my class is going to have Advanced and Master's signs set up next week, instead of mixing excellent and Novice since no one is in Novice anymore. Noelle has a 12 inch jump height and bounces over that with great joy. Returning to heel afterward is a bit of a scramble, but she's only been off leash twice, so I can't be too hard on her.



Lily used to get ahead of me at jumps in advanced and excellent. I tried going slower to get her to collect and it really didn't help. A judge who I know well suggested that I speed up to be there when she lands and that made a great difference. Eventually she learned not to go ahead once that send to jump sign got added.


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## zooeysmom

It sounds like a very successful match! Wonderful that Lily understands your cues better--I'm sure she will rock it in Master next weekend!


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## Click-N-Treat

Speed up after the jump to be there when Noelle is landing makes sense. I will try that tonight.

And I am so excited about what you discovered with hand signals and all those Masters meets going so well. Cheering you on for your next trial. Go team! Go!


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## lily cd re

There are a lot of fine tuning things to do as you get to the master level. There are a lot of signs that have some level of overlap to other things so I think if I can look back from Master level to the lower levels I would have been more definitive about some signals and also made sure that Lily would do some signs with just verbals. Master level didn't exist when we started. Heck even the RN, RA and RE were different when we started. So much so that when we finished RA we waited for the rule change that took out the honor stay and substituted the sit stay get your leash to do RE legs. For those not familiar the honor stay was a sit or down as designated by the judge on leash facing your dog while the next dog worked the course off leash. I never liked the idea of one dog thinking they had to stay and being on a leash while another dog was working in the same ring off leash. Especially back then there were some sketchy dogs in rally that I wouldn't have trusted.


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## mashaphan

Oh,we did the honor! Luckily,I usually knew the dogs running,so we never had an issue. I would EXPECT an excellent dog to be reliable as far as not bothering the honor dog. 

I am likely going to keep Otter in rally (once we GET there :aetsch,as he is not precise enough for obedience. It is extremely helpful that DDS does "puppy aerobics" ,which I found silly for Che,but there are the spins,already learned! There is also a new trainer,who had her own school in NH,so we will have a new viewpoint. That is,once I go back from my "I go no more than 10 miles from home ." Dec-Mar season.

SO glad Lily worked it out! I knew it was just a matter of time!

Martha,Che-the good one,and Otter WildMan


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## Click-N-Treat

Thinking ahead, because we may be doing triple q runs a lot sooner than I expected, I have sign questions.

Send Away Sit signs. How do you train those? I'm completely baffled how this is done. Does it involve magic unicorn sprinkles? 

Back up 3 steps. How do I convince Noelle she can walk in reverse without throwing herself to the left? I practice against a wall, but she doesn't seem to get it. 

Thanks for the help, because Team Click and Noelle need it!


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## lily cd re

Click-N-Treat said:


> Thinking ahead, because we may be doing triple q runs a lot sooner than I expected, I have sign questions.
> 
> Send Away Sit signs. How do you train those? I'm completely baffled how this is done. Does it involve magic unicorn sprinkles?
> 
> Back up 3 steps. How do I convince Noelle she can walk in reverse without throwing herself to the left? I practice against a wall, but she doesn't seem to get it.
> 
> Thanks for the help, because Team Click and Noelle need it!


It is very wise to think ahead. 

For send away sit you can look at my Javelin training thread and read about how we taught go outs. Just use a cone as the go out place instead of a ring gate stanchion. You start with the dog on leash and stay close to the target and gradually take steps back to the needed distance which is only about 6 feet for rally (as opposed tot he 40+ feet in utility). It is helpfully to separately teach the dog to mark a target. To do that part you will need a small paper plate and some bits of cut up hot dogs (or anything not the color of the plate). Put a treat on the plate and from heel and near the plate point to the treat. When the dog leans into looking at the treat they are making a good mark. Then you can release them to get the treat. You can vary this game by being further from the target and also by turning to point to the target (think utility glove directed retrieve) as well as adding several plates with treats and having the dog get a specified treat and returning before marking each of the others. Make sure once you are having the dog go to the cone that you sit them before they are right on top of the cone since you will have to go around to heel for the 2nd part of that Master sign.

For the back up three steps I did tons of practice against the wall to keep Lily from flaring out to face my side. I have also done it by keeping a cookie right on her nose for it as a way I warm it up. I have also found it to be useful to warm it up and practice it frequently against ring gates in the hopes that the way it will be oriented will be along a ring gate. I think it is also important to give a good cue for the backwards change of direction. If you normally lean forward and tilt your head down and forward a bit as you heel you can give a pre-cue by straightening your posture and taking a braking step (short step forward on left foot then bringing your right foot next to your left foot). Your next step will be back on your left foot. It is truly one of the hardest signs since the natural tendency for dogs is not to walk backwards.


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## Click-N-Treat

Ok, I will give this a whirl. Thanks for the suggestions. Rally Master and Excellent signs are kind of a big step up from Advanced and I want to be prepared. I've sent in some, yikes, entry forms. I might end up in Excellent a whole lot sooner than I expected and we really need to be ready for some fancy footwork.


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## lily cd re

Practice for all levels now. For me not all of these levels existed and the collection of signs was very different for excellent when we started it. Remember for Javelin he has to know everything through utility before we will enter novice.


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## Click-N-Treat

Our club offers a mixed level run through every Monday. Noelle has been doing Master signs since we started in September. There are some signs we haven't encountered yet, like go out and sit by the cone. We'll work on those this afternoon. And the evil distractions by the figure 8, we need to work on those. I already know those are going to be a problem. I'll work on those this afternoon, too.


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## zooeysmom

Click, you and Noelle are amazing. I don't think we'll be ready for Excellent for at least another year, even though we school a few of the signs (and we can do one Master sign, yay! LOL). Have you already started competing in Advanced? I found it to be a HUGE step up from Novice!


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## lily cd re

One of the first times Lily and I had the figure 8 with distractions was after the distractions could be food or toys. Well one of the distractions was a pyramidal pile of tennis balls glued together. Lily saw that pile of balls from across the ring and went right to the pile and tried to take the top one. She was startled when they all tried to lift off the floor and I was able to use that moment to call her back, but she was still staring at those balls through the next couple of signs so I asked to be excused. I should have put a ball down in the parking lot and heeled her around it on Saturday, but I didn't think I had enough time to do so (we were 2nd dog in in the morning) and we did pay for it. Heeling around distractions of all sorts is on her short list of things to practice this week.


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## Click-N-Treat

I got some stale dog treats and set them to the side of my figure 8 posts. A few times I said, "Leave it," and Noelle got the idea in a snap. That was way too easy. Something must be wrong. Nothing that goes that smoothly the first time is trained or proofed. I'll have to up the ante with dog toys. Noelle can leave food no problem, but is extremely distracted by toys. 

We worked on backing up three steps without a wall. Noelle wrapped herself around my leg a little bit a few times, but was with me. More training must be done on this, too. Backing up is tough. 

She loves spin (counter clockwise) and twist (clockwise) because I use spins as a fun activity after "exercise finished" as a brain/body reset. We did the side by side spins. Noelle didn't like it when I spun. So, next sign question, any idea how to get Noelle comfortable with me spinning beside her on the side by side 360's?

Ok, even dumber sign question. Which one is the left and which is right? Is the right 360 clockwise? Man, I feel like I'm trying to do this with bricks on my feet and wool in my head.


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## lily cd re

Right 360 is counter clockwise (same as twist). 



For spin side by side I used treats in both hands and taught it as luring two connected 180 deg turns. As the person turns to the right use the treat in the left hand to lure the dog to start turning counterclockwise along with you. Once you have completed the 180 switch the treat luring to the right hand to get the dog to complete their circle while you complete yours. We had that sing on Saturday morning and I did my turn while Lily slopped around next to me. When I saw she hadn't really spun I told her to twist and she did a bit out in front of me and on the late side, but somehow I think we got a major deduction but not a minus ten for that.


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## Click-N-Treat

ZM,

We've been doing a mixed level Rally class since the start, so neither of us have a concept which signs are more difficult. I find Noelle's focus off leash is much better than on leash. We're trialing at the end of January and beginning of February in Advanced. Cross fingers.

I know the judge for Advanced in January does offset figure 8 with dog toys. I know, because I stewarded for her and put the dog toys out myself. They're boring Kong type things, nothing as distracting as a pile of tennis balls. OMG, Noelle would zero in and not think straight. We have a lot of proofing to do. But, we have a month and a bit. I think it'll go ok.


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## zooeysmom

Awesome, Click! Thank you both for the reminder to practice proofing the figure 8 with distractions. We have 3 trials entered in Advanced in January and, like your judge, one of them is infamous for putting this sign at the very start with balls :afraid:


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## lily cd re

zooeysmom said:


> Awesome, Click! Thank you both for the reminder to practice proofing the figure 8 with distractions. We have 3 trials entered in Advanced in January and, like your judge, one of them is infamous for putting this sign at the very start with balls :afraid:



That FB group reviewing judges is very helpful for finding out what signs judges like to use, isn't it?


https://www.facebook.com/groups/122200854494452/


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## zooeysmom

lily cd re said:


> That FB group reviewing judges is very helpful for finding out what signs judges like to use, isn't it?
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/122200854494452/


Yes! I love that group!


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## mashaphan

The secret to back up is practice.practice.practice:amen:. I was completely ready to just blow that one off,but Dottie-Trainer would not let me! LOTS of against the ring/wall/whatever, and I found it useful to warn Che with "ready? AND..back,back back" starting with an exaggerated left leg lift. When he wants to do it,he has a picture back-up:adore:

The 360 signs have an arrow showing the direction,so just follow the arrow. I would think 360 right would be clockwise,but I am a trifle directionally challenged,so..we use spin and reverse,in any case. 

I am training Otter the go-out with a target and "Fly!" and the "send to cone" I have him circle (right) or "left" to go the opposite direction,which I guess I will never use,though maybe if I can get someone to run him in agility.

Did not know about the FB grp re judges-good to know!

Martha


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## Click-N-Treat

Moving down. How can I get this one smoother/faster? 

Send away sit was easier to train than I expected. I used my extended wand clicker and lead Noelle to circle around behind the cone and sit beside it. I need a cue for this behavior. "Go out," means go outside in the backyard and pee. Ideas for a cue?


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## lily cd re

My order for the send to cone is "go cone!" BTW for any exercise where I am sending a dog away from me I do not say their name before sending since I want them to be marking where they are going rather than looking at me.


For the moving down I would start by telling Noelle to down as you step in front of and start to turn to face her. If she drops quickly reward that. Repeat that until she knows you are going to keep moving while she lies down. Then you can add more steps for the walk around dog part rewarding as she stays down with you adding more steps until you are going all the way around her.


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## Click-N-Treat

I have a question about Sign 123, two moving side steps right. Noelle will follow me to the right, but isn't really doing a true side step. How do I train a true side step where we are both facing the same direction and moving together fluidly?

Weirdly enough, she will do Master signs 304 and 305. Call Front - Move 2 Side Steps Right (Left) - Finish Forward. Noelle does these signs like we're ballroom dancing.


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## lily cd re

I would probably teach that one with a cookie on her nose to keep her coming with you. I also have to say that I have never really tried to keep Lily parallel at proper heel for that. I just take my side steps to the right and have her moving to the right and am happy if she straightens herself out in one or two of my steps. I don't really know that I have ever seen a dog do a really straight at heel moving side step.


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## zooeysmom

It is very rare to see this sign performed correctly. I train for it in front of my car before Frosty gets in. He sidesteps perfectly there. Now if we can translate that to the ring...


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## Click-N-Treat

Noelle always comes with me, but it's not pretty. I guess we're doing it ok. We practiced all the Advanced signs today and that was the only tricky one. We worked on Excellent signs as well. Noelle heeled backward exactly three steps, stopped and looked at me as if to say, "Ta-da!"

I was laughing so hard I had to stop training.


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## zooeysmom

Some judges won't take points off for it, as like I said, most people do not do it correctly. But a good judge will take a point or two off. 

That is so cute how Noelle is proud of herself LOL And she should be!


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## Skylar

One of my teachers lays a long board on the floor and trains her dog to keep both front paws on the board and hind paws off. Then she and the dog moves sideways in heel position and even around the ends of the board. She starts training after the dog understands the pivot bowl. It’s an extension of pivot. This teaches the dog to move sideways in heel. 

Noelle is so cute saying Ta-da.


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## lily cd re

Skylar using a board or stick like that is clever. I may try that to clean up Lily for that sign. I use a 2 x 4 with rubber on one 4" face so it doesn't slide and industrial carpet on the other as a "platform" for Javelin's front feet for the open command discrimination and some other stationary work.


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## Skylar

The board I use for this is 1 in. x 12 in. x 6 ft. and I have it wrapped in the textures liner material people use in the kitchen cupboards so it has some grip but not a lot. 6 ft gives you enough space for a few steps.


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## lily cd re

The command discrimination 2 x 4 is only 12" long, so yes definitely see that there is a need for something longer. I think I have a piece of 1 x 2 or other that I can put co-wrap on to give it some grip. I am feeling motivated to clean these things up now to see what it does for our scores (especially in Master).


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## Skylar

I like the 12” width because I stand on it with both feet as I walk on the board. If your dog can stay in heel as you walk along the 6’ length and as you turn the corner to walk back, then you know your dog can easily do the one step in rally. 

For others who are new to dog sports reading this, I used this board raised on a variety of things for different heights keeping it flat to train dog walk for agility and also heel position and down for obedience. I placed one end on my couch to angle it again for dog walk and teeter for training two feet on, two feet off position. While I don’t use it much now, it has been a handy training tool.


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## zooeysmom

Do you ladies have any photos of what this equipment looks like? I'm curious!


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## lily cd re

zooeysmom said:


> Do you ladies have any photos of what this equipment looks like? I'm curious!



I will take some pics tomorrow!


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## lily cd re

On another note, I had found an image file online (want to say on FB) that had all levels of AKC rally signs grouped by types (jumps, changes of direction etc.). Now I can't find it (although I think I may have downloaded it to the other computer). Has any of you seen it? If you have it could you post a link to it please.


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## Skylar

zooeysmom said:


> Do you ladies have any photos of what this equipment looks like? I'm curious!


This is my board. It looks like something you would buy to make a bookshelf and is the cheapest pine I could find.

Those parallel lines are the wool that I used to hold the shelf liner onto the board. This is the shelf liner I used https://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/st...JXhl9UGCVTKMLRahvesaAh-EEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds It's non-adhesive so I needed a way to attach it to the board. I could have used glue or tape but I thought wrapping it with wool means I can easily remove the liner and use the wood for something else. I also could have painted it with special non-slip paint (gritty sand added for texture) but I didn't want to deal with a smelly project in the winter indoors. For learned to walk in heel walking sideways we could have just used the wood board with nothing on it. I used the grippy material because for agility I propped end of the board on a couch and the other on the floor so it was an angle and I needed a safe surface for her to run up and down.

I put my foot on the board in the photo so you get a sense of the size. 

In the other photo you can see Babykins has her two front feet on the board, two hind feet are off. My feet are mostly on the board. I step sideways keeping my feet on the board and Babykins has to keep her two front feet on the board and her two back feet off while she moves sideways with me in heel position.

I start at one end and take steps sideways along the long part of the board. As I come to the end, I keep my feet on the board and sort of pivot around to the other side and Babykins, keeping her two front feet also pivots around with me - then we walk the other side till we come to that end and pivot back to the other side.

It's hard to start - once the dog understands what you're doing it's easy, but training it is tricky. Start on a pivot bowl so they are used to having their front feet up on something and moving their hind feet in a meaningful way - and they learn to control their back end. Then use food to lure them on the board at first.


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## mashaphan

These boards sound/look great. Our trainers are teaching the "two steps" sign with a cooked behind their left knee,saying "slide". i would like it to look cleaner, should we ever get that far, and it looks like the board would work great for "dancing". (yes,I have lofty goals for the WildMan:ahhhhh

Martha,Che and WildMan Otter


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## zooeysmom

Thank you, Skylar! Very helpful.


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## Click-N-Treat

I tried side stepping with Noelle on a board today. She figured it out like a duck takes to water. I think she hesitated once and then was like, "Oh, I have back feet, right." She's still a bit sideways, but I think that has to do with being a quadruped. Her movement looks much more like a side step. It used to look like she was wandering right with me.

Thank you so much for the suggestion of using a board. I never would have thought of that!


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## Skylar

Click-N-Treat said:


> I tried side stepping with Noelle on a board today. She figured it out like a duck takes to water. I think she hesitated once and then was like, "Oh, I have back feet, right." She's still a bit sideways, but I think that has to do with being a quadruped. Her movement looks much more like a side step. It used to look like she was wandering right with me.
> 
> Thank you so much for the suggestion of using a board. I never would have thought of that!


Noelle is amazing, if you keep doing it she’ll learn quickly to move the back end with the front end and will be straight. Walking on the board, the pivot bowl and other exercises really help teach dogs to be cognizant of and gain control over their back end.


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## Click-N-Treat

We trial in Advanced next Sunday. I wonder if a week of practice side stepping on the board will make a difference on that sign? Assuming it's part of the course, that is. I have this recurring nightmare that whatever we practice the most will not be in the course at all. 
Still, side step will show up eventually, and we'll be ready thanks to you.


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## lily cd re

A week of practicing that would probably do wonders. As to whether that sign is on one of your courses is another story of course. You do see it in Advanced fairly often to keep your path away from having a dog take the one jump that will be out if the course brings you past it twice.


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