# Dog Bite Myths and statistics



## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

There has been a lot of discussion lately concerning breed specific problems with aggressive dogs. Here presented are some of the real myths and real statistics.

A woman in Australia is taking the case of her, death sentenced, dog to the high court (Highest court of appeal and mega$). Her partner is a high ranking member of an outlaw motor cycle gang. I suppose the cash will come from them. The dog breed is the one they have adopted as a suitable one for members that has the attributes they value. 

http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2014.php

http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs-pit-bull-myths.php

25 dangerous dog breeds most likely to turn on their owners | Dog Notebook

Photos of the killers::ahhhhh:

2014 Fatal Dog Attack Breed Identification Photographs - DogsBite.org

The owners:

http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs-pit-bull-owners.php

What is a pit bull?::argh:

http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs-pit-bull-faq.php

Attack Videos (not for the faint hearted):angry:

Graphic Dog Attack Videos - Dogfighting - Dangerous Dogs - DogsBite.org

I have searched for dog attacks involving poodles and have been unsuccessful in finding any. Would anyone who has any information regarding aggressive poodles please post them here?

Eric:angel2:


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

My poodle knocked my g'baby over today when she licked him too hard. That's all I got.

pr


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

We were once charged by a flock of Canada Geese. I stood my ground... Tonka ran.


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

Countryboy said:


> We were once charged by a flock of Canada Geese. I stood my ground... Tonka ran.


I don't blame him. Geese are freaking mean beasties.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Well honestly, when he looked back over his shoulder and saw me still standing there, he came back barking! 

Pretty brave with a Cane Corso tho...


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Countryboy said:


> We were once charged by a flock of Canada Geese. I stood my ground... Tonka ran.


I would have ran. One goose is bad enough!
Eric:ahhhhh:


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## PoodlenPrada (Aug 13, 2014)

For what its worth.....heres my 2 cents.

On EVERY dog forum lives the multiple "death to bully breeds" posts and frankly it's just old and tired! We all love our breed of choice and find all sorts of creative (not always productive or accurate) ways and showing how they shine above the rest....and that's fine, but let's also have some moments of reality. No offense to anyone, but the loathing of a particular breed based on the actions of some is just silly. It's easy to scavage the internet looking for articles and stories of pit bull, dobie, sheapard, etc bites and attacks because those are the reports being beaten like a dead horse. If you want to know the real statistics get them from animal control, medical offices and people involved in the incidents. Do you have any idea how many people are bitten each year by a tiny lap dogs; Chihuahuas, poodles, poms, etc? Thousands! The only difference is, someone gets to place a bandaid on the wound and keep going instead of being rushed to the ER for 58 stitches or a fatality, but it doesn't make the incident any less real. And while the damage is a hell of a lot different between a pit bull and a chihuahua......a dog bite is a dog bite no matter how you try to spin it.

Crazy dogs....just like crazy people, come in all shapes sizes and breeds. Everyone wants to gas the breed instead of the irresponsible owner. When you take 100+ pounds of a dog that's built and bred for taking down large game animals, guarding, fighting, etc and put them on the end of a leash held by a moron what do you think is bound to happen? 

Do this....I challenge us all to ask 50 people we know personally if theyve ever been bitten by a dog. Then make a note of the breed. I'm willing to bet that the "25 most dangerous breeds" will make up less of the overall number than the bandaid breed bites.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i haven't read any post here that says "death to bully breeds." i have seen people unable to argue with the fact that some breeds have been bred for aggression trying to claim others are calling for extermination of those breeds. there's a big difference.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I just don't see how someone could think that a bite that needs a bandaid is not any different than a fatality. The logic escapes me!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Quote!
"On EVERY dog forum lives the multiple "death to bully breeds" posts and frankly it's just old and tired!"

This post was not directed at any breed in particular. But inevitably when the statistics of fatal dog bites are discussed one breed in particular seems always to be pre-eminent. In many states it is only the fatalities that are recorded. But in those places where all dog bites to humans needing medical assistance are recorded, one finds a clear correlation between fatalities and less serious bites. Band aid bites would rarely be reported and in my own opinion would be attributable to most all breeds including poodles. 

I will however ask again for any known instances of poodle bites and how they came to pass? If a standard poodle like my Grace bit with vigour she could do a LOT of harm. Her jaw and neck are super strong and when she bites and shakes a piece of strong tug-rope she does a lot of damage.

When we were away from home on her last trip she helped me to "see off" a couple of felons intent on robbery. They were not too scared of an old man but when grace gave a snarl that chilled my blood, after a bark that was surprisingly loud, they gave it some more thought. When Grace with lightning speed feinted at the man (with a knife) and did as I had taught and moved behind him grabbing his knife arm by the elbow they both ran off. The knife was dropped (later given to police for evidence). Some blood was found on the ground but I have no idea how much damage she did. This was when she was but 18 months old. I think she might have been faster then but now she is stronger and heavier. She is also more practised and under my control. In conclusion I would say she is a dangerous dog. But she loves people and most other dogs. She looks to me for guidance and direction. But when so directed to attack, she is a danger. I was loath to train her to this; but as I become more frail, I fear the elements of our society that prey on others. I also had, had a lot of experience training dogs for police work. It was almost second nature to start playing the "game" of "get the nasty man" her favourite game, in which she is to try to "get" me from behind and I try to "get" her with a stick or a kick. Occasionally she has been too enthusiastic and has torn my clothing and bruised my elbow or calf. She has never broken the skin. I have numerous scars from GSDs playing the same games. Goes with the job! I find it abhorrent that dogs will attack and sometimes kill for no good reason. They mostly kill a member of their own family. A trait common to humans?
Grace has been taught to defend and to attack only in defence of her family. When unknown people come into our property she will allow them in but not allow them to leave without permission. She will threaten but not attack without direction. She is smarter than the GSDs I trained and she is a lot more in control. My control and her own.
Eric:angel2:


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Eric, Gracie's protectiveness is impressive. I have no experience in training a dog to be protective but I do hope that Piper has that natural instinct should the need arise. So far, she has never met a stranger.

pr


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I worked in a pet store for a while as a teen, and saw quite the variety of dogs. We had plenty of pits and American Bulldogs in the shop, and never had a problem. However, I was bitten twice by toy poodles, twice by chihuahuas, and once by a daschund. I don't harbor any bad feelings towards any of those breeds, but I did refuse to help people try harnesses, collars, and clothes on their small dogs finally. I think sometimes the problem with small dogs is that they never learn manners...behavior that would be completely unacceptable for a bigger dog is allowed to slide because of their small size. Also, my Chow Chow was attacked by a Rottie.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

FireStorm said:


> I worked in a pet store for a while as a teen, and saw quite the variety of dogs. We had plenty of pits and American Bulldogs in the shop, and never had a problem. However, I was bitten twice by toy poodles, twice by chihuahuas, and once by a dachshund. I don't harbor any bad feelings towards any of those breeds, but I did refuse to help people try harnesses, collars, and clothes on their small dogs finally. I think sometimes the problem with small dogs is that they never learn manners...behavior that would be completely unacceptable for a bigger dog is allowed to slide because of their small size. Also, my Chow Chow was attacked by a Rottie.


I have been bitten many times by dachshunds They are not savage but they are one family dogs often. I agree that small dogs bite more often. Apart from feeling threatened by big humans and dogs, they are often not trained. Their owners are able to carry them and take little notice of bad behavior.
Eric.:angel2:


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## PoodlenPrada (Aug 13, 2014)

patk said:


> i haven't read any post here that says "death to bully breeds." i have seen people unable to argue with the fact that some breeds have been bred for aggression trying to claim others are calling for extermination of those breeds. there's a big difference.


Well perhaps "death to bully breeds" was the wrong way to phrase it. My point is that everyone discussed the the bully breeds and other aggressive breeds as if they are the only dogs that ever bite/attack other dogs or people. Adults, children and other dogs are attacked/bitten by grandma's unsocialized cocker spaniel, chihuahua, poodles and whatever else quite often but those facts are never talked about when the topic arises. Why is that?


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## PoodlenPrada (Aug 13, 2014)

N2Mischief said:


> I just don't see how someone could think that a bite that needs a bandaid is not any different than a fatality. The logic escapes me!


I know...and unfortunately the logic escapes most people. 
Despite which breed is delivering it, a bite is a bite. I was not speaking in terms of the magnitude in injury. I think we can all agreed that the bite from a small lap dog would be far less injurious than that from a large powerful breed, which is why i made the distinction between a bandaid and stitches/fatality. But do you think that the person bitten by the lap dog has any less right to claim their injury just because their face wasn't ripped off?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i think it's the degree of damage done that's the dividing line. i recall that for a long time cocker spaniels were known as biters - i believe that was attributed to their sudden popularity and the bad breeding for profit only that ensued. smaller dogs tend to be bitey because, as noted above, their owners often don't bother much with training. none of these breeds, however, were or are bred specifically for aggression and to fight. pitbulls are called pitbulls because of the purpose for which they were bred - to fight in "pits," sometimes to the death. it's hard to shake off genetics.

i'm of the view that our desire to save animals and species is admirable. i doubt anyone at pf wants to go out and kill wolves, tigers, or other predators indiscriminately, even if we fear them. but most of us have no problem admitting we don't want them on our streets, either. i think that comes from recognizing they are not meant to live in human society except in special circumstances. i'm of the view that that may also be true of dogs purposely bred for aggression.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

PoodlenPrada said:


> Well perhaps "death to bully breeds" was the wrong way to phrase it. My point is that everyone discussed the the bully breeds and other aggressive breeds as if they are the only dogs that ever bite/attack other dogs or people. Adults, children and other dogs are attacked/bitten by grandma's unsocialized cocker spaniel, chihuahua, poodles and whatever else quite often but those facts are never talked about when the topic arises. Why is that?


This thread began about the REAL statistics. Who gets bitten, who gets killed and by what breeds. YES poodles and many small breeds bite. and their bite can be serious. Exactly the thought behind this post. I am still waiting for tales of poodle aggression. After all this is a poodle forum!! It is sad that one breed and its crosses, figure so popular in dog bite and dog fatality statistics. This has nothing to do with discrimination of any one breed or another. It has to do with the cold and hard facts. If there are those who dispute those facts, I say; present your own FACTS. Publish them with evidence to equal that presented in the links presented in this posts OP.
Eric.:angel2:


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## PoodlenPrada (Aug 13, 2014)

patk said:


> i think it's the degree of damage done that's the dividing line. i recall that for a long time cocker spaniels were known as biters - i believe that was attributed to their sudden popularity and the bad breeding for profit only that ensued. smaller dogs tend to be bitey because, as noted above, their owners often don't bother much with training. none of these breeds, however, were or are bred specifically for aggression and to fight. pitbulls are called pitbulls because of the purpose for which they were bred - to fight in "pits," sometimes to the death. it's hard to shake off genetics.
> 
> i'm of the view that our desire to save animals and species is admirable. i doubt anyone at pf wants to go out and kill wolves, tigers, or other predators indiscriminately, even if we fear them. but most of us have no problem admitting we don't want them on our streets, either. i think that comes from recognizing they are not meant to live in human society except in special circumstances. i'm of the view that that may also be true of dogs purposely bred for aggression.


I Totally Agree!

I love bully breeds and several other more aggressive breeds, but would I ever own one...NOPE! I am a person who does my homework and knows the history of breeds that interest me and I know my personality, my expectations or my lifestyle do not lend themselves to ownership of any aggressive breed...and I'm ok with admiring them from afar.

Someone commented earlier that my logic in comparing a fatal dog bite to one of a small breed was somehow faulty, but in all honesty I come from the school of thought that ANY dog 2lbs or 200lbs that bites a person or other dogs unprovoked should be removed from society (and yes I mean permanently removed). I don't want anything unpredictable wandering the same streets I walk...little dog, big dog or otherwise. Almost everything lethal is regulated by some government entity or another, and the same should be true for those aggressive dog breeds, before someone is allowed to own one (in a perfect world I guess). 

So while I'm certainly not blind to the horrors that have occurred over the years as a result of pit bull attacks and attacks by other similarly breeds, I also know that plenty of other people have suffered injuries and traumatic aftermaths from being bitten by small breeds, that go unreported most of the time.


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## PoodlenPrada (Aug 13, 2014)

ericwd9 said:


> This thread began about the REAL statistics. Who gets bitten, who gets killed and by what breeds. YES poodles and many small breeds bite. and their bite can be serious. Exactly the thought behind this post. I am still waiting for tales of poodle aggression. After all this is a poodle forum!! It is sad that one breed and its crosses, figure so popular in dog bite and dog fatality statistics. This has nothing to do with discrimination of any one breed or another. It has to do with the cold and hard facts. If there are those who dispute those facts, I say; present your own FACTS. Publish them with evidence to equal that presented in the links presented in this posts OP.
> Eric.:angel2:


Yes I know how the thread began, and the information was not being disputed. It was being asked why when the discussion of dog bites/attacks arises the only things ever talked about are the bully/aggressive breeds? We all hear the same news reports when a pit bull bites or kills someone, but I don't think any of us live in a vacuum and believe they are the only offenders.
So where are those discussions?

PS...your Gracie sounds like a wonderful girl, and kudos to you for the amount of training you've done with her; very impressive. Is the training you do with her similar to Schutzhund training?


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

PoodlenPrada said:


> Yes I know how the thread began, and the information was not being disputed. It was being asked why when the discussion of dog bites/attacks arises the only things ever talked about are the bully/aggressive breeds? We all hear the same news reports when a pit bull bites or kills someone, but I don't think any of us live in a vacuum and believe they are the only offenders.
> So where are those discussions?
> 
> PS...your Gracie sounds like a wonderful girl, and kudos to you for the amount of training you've done with her; very impressive. Is the training you do with her similar to Schutzhund training?


Pit bulls are NOT the only offender. The reason their name figures so very highly in reports, is simply, that they ARE responsible for a lot more than 50% of all fatalities and more than 70% of serious injuries. Their attacks on other dogs are not fully recorded. But where they are, they figure 10 times more often than any other breed. We can not ignore this!

Grace has been trained in much the same way that I trained GSDs for police work. It came about because she wanted to play fight me. I decided that rather than just fight and teach her nothing, I would teach her to defend herself and myself and not to injure anyone, or herself, without cause.
I am lucky, in that I am retired and have had the time to spend with her. For some this would not be possible. Many hours are needed. Some of her training is weak. But not the important stuff. (she begs for food and runs my life). Morning starts with her bringing my clothing to dress me. Don't think for one min. she does this for nothing. Getting me dressed is one step closer to going to the beach for play.
Eric.:angel2:


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

PoodlenPrada said:


> Yes I know how the thread began, and the information was not being disputed. It was being asked why when the discussion of dog bites/attacks arises the only things ever talked about are the bully/aggressive breeds? We all hear the same news reports when a pit bull bites or kills someone, but I don't think any of us live in a vacuum and believe they are the only offenders.
> So where are those discussions?


I live in a city and the dogs that have become known as pit bulls are an epidemic. They are the ones that concern me on a daily basis. ...and cane corsos. I have two cc's and one aloof pit bull on my block. The pit bull is a gorgeous specimen and foolishly, a sweet girl in jr. high school has, more than once, screamed for help while trying to hold onto the pit. The cc's up the block have sent their owner by ambulance to the hospital covered in blood. That's why this is a very relevant topic. 

I had a Doxie neighbor that had a biting problem but I never feared it. I could hvae easily kick it away from me if I had to, so those kind of biting dogs don't interst me much. 

pr


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## Towandafox (Nov 22, 2013)

Requested stories of poodle fear/aggression 

1) When I was young my brother-in-law's aunt passed away and he took in her elderly, blind, miniature poodle. As a kid, I thought "that thing is mean," because it would hide under chairs and tables and bite (to draw blood) any one who happened to walk by. Looking back, I'm sure the dog was just very scared. Its person was gone, and it was brought to am unfamiliar environment. However, my brother-in-law did say it used to nip (not draw blood) at people at his aunt's house and she would laugh, think it was funny.

2) At the last poodle day in Carmel, my family and I (including our toy, Tully) were watching the Spoo parade. As the poodles finished their parade they would be walked back, behind the crowd of people/poos. Two women with Spoos were talking in front of us. One Spoo had a rescue agency coat on. With no noticeable warning to us, the rescue Spoo bit the other SPoo on the nose to draw blood. Screaming and yelling ensued, at which point we moved away. 

Both cases, I believe were due to fear more than aggression, but I thought I'd post them anyway since they were requested.


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## mom2m (Dec 24, 2014)

My brother in law bought my sister a toy poodle years ago. He really didn't know anything about buying a dog, he was trying to do something nice for her...it clearly was a puppy mill puppy. And he had a wretched attitude. No matter what my sister tried, she could not get that dog to not nip at people. For whatever reason, he particularly hated people with blonde hair. 

I do think some folks with small dogs don't see the problem with the "band aid" biting. (FYI--my sister truly tried everything--she did manage major improvement, but never completely eliminated the behavior.) 

All that being said--there is a HUGE difference in injury from a toy poodle weighing in at maybe 5 pounds and a pitbull. The pitbull can clearly do a lot more damage. At best they are unpredictable in their behavior. I don't think they should be allowed at dog parks (or have a pitbull only period of time). I think that responsible ownership may be possible, but is often not what happens.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlerunner said:


> I live in a city and the dogs that have become known as pit bulls are an epidemic. They are the ones that concern me on a daily basis. ...and cane corsos. I have two cc's and one aloof pit bull on my block. The pit bull is a gorgeous specimen and foolishly, a sweet girl in jr. high school has, more than once, screamed for help while trying to hold onto the pit. The cc's up the block have sent their owner by ambulance to the hospital covered in blood. That's why this is a very relevant topic.
> 
> I had a Doxie neighbor that had a biting problem but I never feared it. I could hvae easily kick it away from me if I had to, so those kind of biting dogs don't interst me much.
> 
> pr



They still have those dogs?!


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> They still have those dogs?!


Just yesterday I was walking with my aunt up the block because she wanted to go for a walk and see my neighborhood. These dogs had never been allowed outside of the house but one was out. There are construction fences up around that house because of renovations and this Cane Corso was sticking his mouth out of the plywood fencing trying to get out. I only saw the one so I wonder if they got rid of the one that bit the guy up. 

I have a feeling they didn't know the dog was out :afraid::afraid::afraid: 

Back when their dog attacked its owner, I called the newspapers but nobody was interested in the story. 

pr


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlerunner said:


> Just yesterday I was walking with my aunt up the block because she wanted to go for a walk and see my neighborhood. These dogs had never been allowed outside of the house but one was out. There are construction fences up around that house because of renovations and this Cane Corso was sticking his mouth out of the plywood fencing trying to get out. I only saw the one so I wonder if they got rid of the one that bit the guy up.
> 
> I have a feeling they didn't know the dog was out :afraid::afraid::afraid:
> 
> ...



What a horrible worry to have to live with. Have you tried calling Animal Control? Perhaps they could at least give you some advice, and maybe pay a visit to let the owners know that they had better follow the letter of the law?


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

There are lots of laws. Some we like, some we don't. Some are enforced and some are not. As to "the letter of the law" that is best left to those who make a good living there. No law is any better than its enforcement. Sadly politicians decide which laws shall be enforced and which will be neglected. We can make as many laws as we like. But some poor law enforcement officer will have to decide if it should be enforced or not depending on the political climate. If we insist on re-electing the same "old boys" (and girls) to do the same stupid things, nothing will ever change. If you want change you must seek it.
Eric


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

MY 2 cents... my daughter has been bitten twice by a friends Pit. She is scared on her side because of it and had to trash her boots. I have been bitten twice by two different dogs in my lifetime, a resuced Shih tuz, totally my fault, I was trying to play with him and he did not understand. And once by a mutt, I have no scars, or thrown away any clothing.

P.S. My poodle nipped the UPS man.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Carley's Mom said:


> P.S. My poodle nipped the UPS man.


I'm not surprised. Your Poodle thinks she's the boss of the world!


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## mamalion (Aug 8, 2014)

The issue for me is bites vs attacks. Long ago I groomed dogs for a living, and I have been bitten more than a few times by a number of breeds, but I have never been attacked. That is a whole different level of aggression!

Most dogs will bite if pushed or scared, but attacking (people or other dogs) is just bad news.


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## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

mamalion said:


> The issue for me is bites vs attacks. Long ago I groomed dogs for a living, and I have been bitten more than a few times by a number of breeds, but I have never been attacked. That is a whole different level of aggression!
> 
> Most dogs will bite if pushed or scared, but attacking (people or other dogs) is just bad news.


I agree! When Sunny - all 9 pounds of him - was in rescue, he was so fearful that he bit the rescue director so hard that she had to have several stitches put in her hand. This happened when she was simply trying to get him out of the crate to go outside and potty. He had bitten her before, but this was the first time that the bite was this serious. After that incident, Sunny was put on doggie Prozac (it was either this or put him down), and he hasn't bitten since. I'm his permanent foster because he's unadoptable, and I'm now working on weaning him from the medicine after two years. 

Can you imagine if this had happened with a much bigger dog?


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Country, You made me laugh out loud, but this might surprise you... it was NOT Stella ! My perfect dog Carley was the biter. lol


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am late to this discussion, but I have to say that any bite that breaks skin from a dog of any size is unacceptable behavior. Most especially if the dog holds on to the person or shakes its head while holding on so as to result in bad damage that dog needs to be euthanized pronto. A dog that has done so once is likely to do so again and the behavior is likely to escalate with successive bites. While a tpoo bite for an adult might not be a big deal, it is a big deal if the victim is an infant or small child.

I think you all know that I have no love or warm feelings for bullies or other aggressively reputed breeds, but my bigger problem is with the people who have such dogs and don't know how to handle them. Even obedience people can be dumb about it, taking the woman whose rottie went after Lily last fall as an example. On the other hand I have a friend with a nice rottie bitch for whom I most grateful. She has helped me get Lily over her concern about rotties in a big way.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> I am late to this discussion, but I have to say that any bite that breaks skin from a dog of any size is unacceptable behavior. Most especially if the dog holds on to the person or shakes its head while holding on so as to result in bad damage that dog needs to be euthanized pronto. A dog that has done so once is likely to do so again and the behavior is likely to escalate with successive bites. While a tpoo bite for an adult might not be a big deal, it is a big deal if the victim is an infant or small child.
> 
> I think you all know that I have no love or warm feelings for bullies or other aggressively reputed breeds, but my bigger problem is with the people who have such dogs and don't know how to handle them. Even obedience people can be dumb about it, taking the woman whose rottie went after Lily last fall as an example. On the other hand I have a friend with a nice rottie bitch for whom I most grateful. She has helped me get Lily over her concern about rotties in a big way.



I think that you make a VERY important point - there is a huge difference between a dog who lands a snap, and a dog that bites down, holds and shakes - that dog had no place in civilized society!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

We have a couple of Cane Corsos at the park. Most of you have heard of Champ... Tonka's playmate for a long time. Not well socialized. And disciplined only ever with a wag of the finger and a mild 'Bad Boy'. Just turned two, still intact, he's become a Pariah at the park... unfortunately. But he's an unpredictable dog. Even Tonka avoids him now.

'Nuther Cane I met the other day grew up in a family, with small kids, other animals... and she was the sweetest big lump I've met in years. Within a few minutes she was leaning on my leg so I could reach down and scratch her back. A real 'family dog' sweetheart. 

So really, isn't it more about the socialization? Almost regardless of breed..


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Gene changes during development.*



Countryboy said:


> We have a couple of Cane Corsos at the park. Most of you have heard of Champ... Tonka's playmate for a long time. Not well socialized. And disciplined only ever with a wag of the finger and a mild 'Bad Boy'. Just turned two, still intact, he's become a Pariah at the park... unfortunately. But he's an unpredictable dog. Even Tonka avoids him now.
> 
> 'Nuther Cane I met the other day grew up in a family, with small kids, other animals... and she was the sweetest big lump I've met in years. Within a few minutes she was leaning on my leg so I could reach down and scratch her back. A real 'family dog' sweetheart.
> 
> So really, isn't it more about the socialization? Almost regardless of breed..


According to the egg-spurts yes and no. socialization makes a dog manageable. But breed instinct can ride over and cause instability.

I intend posting soon about the most recent reaseach into learned and modified behavior patterns. Seems the actual genetic structure can change as genes are turned on or off by environment during early life. It seems the concept of genetic memory is almost a proven fact. We know if you train a breed to be aggressive then that trait will eventually breed into the line. This new research shows how that works and how it can be permanent in a breed-line. These concepts have been proven in rats and dogs. Research goes on with humans and it is expected that there will be no real difference. We thought that the genes you are given at conception were it! seems not. Genes can and do change in the formative years. and these changes are passed on to the next generation.

Eric.:angel2:


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yes Eric genes can be altered through experience. It is called epigenetics when environment influences gene expression and that is the basis of the concept you are planning to discuss. It is very cutting edge stuff, but important to appreciate.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Yes Catherine, I have thought to introduce the concept of epigenetics here, since it influences much of what we try do do in early training and in the selection process of good breeding. This concept is a game changer but might not be too well accepted.

Also I have thought about the concepts of strategic thought in the development of self discipline. This is a concept more usually applied to human development. But I see it in Grace's development of her level of self discipline. It is the development of strategy and the patience to use it that allows her to discipline herself in order to achieve an objective. I do wish I had another two decades or so. I think I could add a lot to the argument. I could then also add a few more poodles to my family. MPS. LOL.
Eric.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlerunner said:


> Eric, Gracie's protectiveness is impressive. I have no experience in training a dog to be protective but I do hope that Piper has that natural instinct should the need arise. So far, she has never met a stranger.
> 
> 
> 
> pr



Gee I wonder if I could teach Timi to give the bad guys a groin shot - if she employed her spring loaded legs, she could probably do some serious damage


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Spud is your dog, TP! 

I took him thru two legs of his RN while peeing blood all day. From an over-enthusiastic, badly placed, jump-up greeting the day before. lol


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Gee I wonder if I could teach Timi to give the bad guys a groin shot - if she employed her spring loaded legs, she could probably do some serious damage


The way Timi flies through the air, a groin shot could be fatal. LOL 
Unless you are experienced, teaching a dog any aggressive moves in protection is potentially dangerous and should be done in a controlled environment. Games simulating the wanted behaviour are used. One person simulates the attacker (suitably and protectively dressed) another the attacked person. The dog is trained to go for the weapon arm from behind at the elbow while the attacked person keeps the attackers attention. The dog is only to move in on command. It starts as a game but a smart dog knows when the game is serious as with play fighting and the real deal.
Eric:angel2:


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

ericwd9 said:


> The way Timi flies through the air, a groin shot could be fatal. LOL
> Unless you are experienced, teaching a dog any aggressive moves in protection is potentially dangerous and should be done in a controlled environment. Games simulating the wanted behaviour are used. One person simulates the attacker (suitably and protectively dressed) another the attacked person. The dog is trained to go for the weapon arm from behind at the elbow while the attacked person keeps the attackers attention. The dog is only to move in on command. It starts as a game but a smart dog knows when the game is serious as with play fighting and the real deal.
> Eric:angel2:



I have always wondered - can dogs trained on a suited up attacker be trusted to behave the same with a normally dressed person? We have all heard of dogs that are aggressive with people in uniform, and nobody else. Those attack suits look awfully threatening in themselves!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

ericwd9 said:


> Yes Catherine, I have thought to introduce the concept of epigenetics here, since it influences much of what we try do do in early training and in the selection process of good breeding. *This concept is a game changer but might not be too well accepted.*
> 
> Also I have thought about the concepts of strategic thought in the development of self discipline. This is a concept more usually applied to human development. But I see it in Grace's development of her level of self discipline. It is the development of strategy and the patience to use it that allows her to discipline herself in order to achieve an objective. I do wish I had another two decades or so. I think I could add a lot to the argument. I could then also add a few more poodles to my family. MPS. LOL.
> Eric.


Eric the data in support of this science is growing by leaps and bounds. Evidence is evidence. If certain people can't understand that and object to the facts of the science then that is their loss. I also wish you MPS and decades to enjoy it.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> Eric the data in support of this science is growing by leaps and bounds. Evidence is evidence. If certain people can't understand that and object to the facts of the science then that is their loss. I also wish you MPS and decades to enjoy it.


It is precisely the refusal to accept the proven evidence by so very many people that provided the incentive for this original post.:2in1:

Eric:angel2:


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I hear you on that! Data doesn't lie, but people can fool themselves. We've all done that at least once in our lives.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

That article 25 Dogs most likely to turn on their owners is an epic fail on the part of the writer. If they wanted to feed anything but hype the writer should have started out that any dog who is poorly bred, left untrained or un-socialized, who is teased, abused, etc... any breed, any size is likely to misbehave has potential to be a biter. Beyond that, which breeds have a tendency towards handler-hardness or biting the handler... now that's where the story is. Some of the breeds listed are on the 'turn on handler list' because they're big, because they're strong. The author of the article lost sight of the purpose of the writing peace & went with the sensational. Notice not many of the hunting breeds are on the list? I have handled most of the dogs on that 'most likely to turn' list. I'll take a Boerbel, Doberman, German Shepherd over a Chesapeake Bay Retriever, Lab or some English Springer Spaniels I've handled. I'm talking on equal ground: skilled handler raising them, properly socialized & trained... I've had owners of those 3 breeds call me in tears after having to put their dog down when it ripped into someone it's lived with all his/her life. Chessies can be very one handler dogs. 

I hate it when articles like this come out & they're poorly written. It serves no one.


Tiny Poodles,

You asked about bite suits vs layman's clothing. It's actually quite simply done. The big puffy suit is just a tool, then you move the dog to a different suit or sleeve, then a thinner & thinner equipment down to a hidden sleeve, hidden leg, groin, neck equipment. Also dogs must be properly stabilized so they understand that just because they see a bad guy doesn't mean bite. Sometimes you just might have a half deaf drunk. He comes up hollering, "HEY THAT'S A PRETTY DOG". So long as he doesn't try to grab me, the dog must follow my direction "it's okay". The happy drunk who is loud, obnoxious isn't illegal or posing a threat that I need protection from. 

I think I saw you asked about crotch bites. Yes, dogs can & are trained for that. Generally it's a smallish dog who naturally goes to that area for the bite. When a guy's junk is threatened he tends to cover it & back up. So for an elderly woman who'd been raped twice in her building (she was in her 70's). Her little poodle, terrier, something mix saved her on round 3. The dog managed to put off the first guy, the 2nd one probably had a new nickname in prison. It's not a safe choice because the dog's head & spine are vulnerable to attack during that kind of bite.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

dogsavvy said:


> That article 25 Dogs most likely to turn on their owners is an epic fail on the part of the writer. If they wanted to feed anything but hype the writer should have started out that any dog who is poorly bred, left untrained or un-socialized, who is teased, abused, etc... any breed, any size is likely to misbehave has potential to be a biter. Beyond that, which breeds have a tendency towards handler-hardness or biting the handler... now that's where the story is. Some of the breeds listed are on the 'turn on handler list' because they're big, because they're strong. The author of the article lost sight of the purpose of the writing peace & went with the sensational. Notice not many of the hunting breeds are on the list? I have handled most of the dogs on that 'most likely to turn' list. I'll take a Boerbel, Doberman, German Shepherd over a Chesapeake Bay Retriever, Lab or some English Springer Spaniels I've handled. I'm talking on equal ground: skilled handler raising them, properly socialized & trained... I've had owners of those 3 breeds call me in tears after having to put their dog down when it ripped into someone it's lived with all his/her life. Chessies can be very one handler dogs.
> 
> I hate it when articles like this come out & they're poorly written. It serves no one.
> 
> ...


Thank You!!! For most? dogs, _controlled_, aggression can be trained in or out with care, time and patience. Very few, will take the time alone. For the professional trainer, training the dog to take care and make its attack in a safe manner, only on command, is the challenge.
Eric


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

The hard work and careful steps to be able to have a schutzhund type trained bite work trained dog is amazing when done right, but a problem I see in my area is that people with bully breeds show up at he local schutzhund club saying they know their dog is tough and they think he/she would be good at this work. They attend a few sessions and then disappear with a loose cannon at the end of the leash. I think this makes those dogs and their people even more dangerous that before they did any training.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

lily cd re,

yes those are the WORST. I ceased attending Schutz clubs for the same reason I stopped giving riding lessons. It's rare for people to really understand the dedication to training or the lifestyle required to have a trained guardian. As time goes by it gets worse. :alberteinstein: Drives me crazy. They come in bragging how tough their dog is when 'tough' is a term they have little understanding for. There is a huge difference between a dog willing to endure pain or a high pain tolerance vs a dog who is mentally strong. I'll take the mentally strong dog to defend my life any day. In the end it's generally those folks whose dogs end up on the news. I've had trained guardians for many years a few members on that 'most likely to turn' article. I've never had one of my dogs turn on me & I've been doing this for 40 years. My dogs will bark at passersby but they've no need to attack where no threat is present. The guys with 'tough' dogs... they're always looking for an excuse but they're always stunned when the cops arrive.

it's why the Pit Bull is slowly being banned all over the place. The pit of old was not a loose cannon. The breeding practices that have lead to what we have now are that 'tough' dog idiot mentality. They've all but ruined a good breed.

I should say I've trained with several nice Pit Bulls however I don't own one & can't imagine I ever will. I favor a different kind of mind in my dogs.


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