# How important is "board certified" for gastropexy



## Lori G (Sep 19, 2014)

I would not have any vet perform any surgery on my animals, or myself, unless they were fully trained and very familiar with the procedure. I'm don't think there is a special "board certification" specific to gastro surgery but if my vet's office reacted as you described I would look else where. How old is your pup?


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## Phoebz (Apr 6, 2016)

She's almost 16 weeks so we have some time to research this further, thankfully. I was aware of bloat as an issue, and warned about exercise before and after feeding. But I did not learn of the gastropexy procedure until just browsing around the forum recently. The breeder said her mom went in to heat around 9 months of age, so I was going to try to aim for 7-8 months for her spay. I understand that the gastropexy is most effective if done when they are almost a year old, so I'm a bit conflicted there. I think I want her to have all her little hormones for good development, but not go through the first heat. The vet wanted to spay at 4 months?! Maybe I just need a new vet. I have been questioning this.


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## Lori G (Sep 19, 2014)

I will watch this post for those with more experience for their advice on age for both procedures, and about doing it at the same time.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Many of us here believe waiting until after the first heat to spay. The onset of puberty is the signal for the growth plates to close, and when that does not happen because of an early spay, the bones may overgrow causing poorly fitting joints. Since Spoos are at a somewhat high risk for hip dysplasia and Tpoos for luxating patellas, we want to avoid doing anything that will disrupt their orthopedic development. Spay incontinence and certain cancers are also a higher risk with early spay.
And I would like to add that Timi is my first poodle that had a heat before spay, and the development of her body after the heat was remarkable. I have never seen such a well muscled, athletic Toy Poodle in my life (and she is my 7th poodle). And the vulva, while I have been lucky not to have experienced spay incontinence in any of my girls (I have heard it is more a large dog issue), hers looks like an entirely different organ than my pre-heat spayed girls - after seeing the difference it is easy to imagine how thwarting the development by removing the hormones could effect it's functioning.
And as far as board certified, even for the most routine procedures such as spay, my girls are operated upon by a board certified veterinary surgeon. It just makes plain sense that somebody who does nothing but surgery every single day is going to have better skills than a general practitioner, and I for sure would never think of having a less routine elective procedure done by a GP!


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Phoebz said:


> She's almost 16 weeks so we have some time to research this further, thankfully. I was aware of bloat as an issue, and warned about exercise before and after feeding. But I did not learn of the gastropexy procedure until just browsing around the forum recently. The breeder said her mom went in to heat around 9 months of age, so I was going to try to aim for 7-8 months for her spay. I understand that the gastropexy is most effective if done when they are almost a year old, so I'm a bit conflicted there. I think I want her to have all her little hormones for good development, but not go through the first heat. The vet wanted to spay at 4 months?! Maybe I just need a new vet. I have been questioning this.


These days, any vet who wants to spay at 4 months is not someone I would want to use. Not in the best interest of the long term health of the dog. Tiny Poodles is spot on with what modern veterinary science says about waiting for proper development before spaying. I would certainly wait until after the first heat cycle, if it were my pup. And a board certified surgeon to do the spay & pexi, unless your veterinarian is very experienced in both proceedures.

Best of luck. Viking Queen


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## Phoebz (Apr 6, 2016)

So those considerations are really important, but I keep coming back to, how the heck do I keep my job and survive a heat cycle? I can't leave her at day care in heat, right? 

We just got stationed here, my husband is the new guy in his squadron so his schedule is terrible, and he has no control over it. I have no one else to help me with her. I don't know of any way to make it through that phase.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Phoebz said:


> From what I've read on this board, and from considering the risk of bloat for a standard poodle, I would like to get the preventative gastropexy done for my pup.
> 
> I called our vet to ask if they offer the gastropexy procedure during a spay surgery. The vet tech said that the doctor is getting more familiar with it, or something along those lines. I'm not really sure that makes me feel super confident??
> 
> How important is it to find a board certified dr for the gastropexy, and how would I find one? I'm stumped, I tried googling for this and it's not obvious.


I really like the idea of using a board certified surgeon for a prophylactic gastropexy. I think that experience on the part of the surgeon is one of the most important factors in a successful pexy that will hold up over time. I would consider using a non board certified vet who also had a lot of experience doing the procedure.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Lori G said:


> I would not have any vet perform any surgery on my animals, or myself, unless they were fully trained and very familiar with the procedure. I'm don't think there is a special "board certification" specific to gastro surgery but if my vet's office reacted as you described I would look else where. How old is your pup?


There are board certified surgeons, though, and generally a board certified surgeon is who you would use for advanced procedures.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Phoebz said:


> She's almost 16 weeks so we have some time to research this further, thankfully. I was aware of bloat as an issue, and warned about exercise before and after feeding. But I did not learn of the gastropexy procedure until just browsing around the forum recently. The breeder said her mom went in to heat around 9 months of age, so I was going to try to aim for 7-8 months for her spay. I understand that the gastropexy is most effective if done when they are almost a year old, so I'm a bit conflicted there. I think I want her to have all her little hormones for good development, but not go through the first heat. The vet wanted to spay at 4 months?! Maybe I just need a new vet. I have been questioning this.


 You don't need to wait for a heat cycle, but you do want to allow her to complete the majority of her growth. It's line dependent, and some bitches come in heat as early as 6 months (especially some of those reds & apricots), but many are at or after 12 months. One of my bitches came in heat for the first time at 26 months! That is on the extreme end of the spectrum, but the point here is that there's a good chance that you have until closer to a year, at least.

If it were me, I personally would not even consider spaying her prior to 10 months and I would plan to spay her as close to 12 months as you can manage. If she comes in heat, it is a slight inconvenience as she can't go to day care, etc. She will need to stay home for that month, but I've never had a dog that wasn't okay staying at home. I don't think it's the end of the world for her to have to stay home for a few weeks. And, depending on the line, there is a very real possibility that she will not come in heat prior to 12 months, and that's okay. She would still have completed the majority of her growth which is important.


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## Lori G (Sep 19, 2014)

Phoebz said:


> So those considerations are really important, but I keep coming back to, how the heck do I keep my job and survive a heat cycle? I can't leave her at day care in heat, right?
> 
> We just got stationed here, my husband is the new guy in his squadron so his schedule is terrible, and he has no control over it. I have no one else to help me with her. I don't know of any way to make it through that phase.


Do you work close enough to come home mid-day? Or is there a dog walker in your area? If not, I think CMillie's advice is excellent. Our last dog was spayed at 6 months. With all the latest research, I will be waiting as long as possible with our next girl.

Thank you and your husband for your service.


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## Phoebz (Apr 6, 2016)

I think the best I could manage is about 4 hours in her crate, come home to walk her at lunch (or get a dog walker) and then back in the crate for 4 hours. I am home most of the week, but on those occasional days that I do need to go in to the office, I hate to leave her crated up. My job has been pretty flexible about minimal office days while she's super young, but I can feel that I am pushing my luck now.


I'm feeling like a horrible dog mom, and I really hope I don't ruin the dear pup. but I'm getting a lot of good info here.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

First of all don't assume that she will still need crating by the time she comes into heat, or at least by that time you may have transitioned her to an ex-pen or gated into one room. By that age any dog should be fine with one relief walk during the day and many will be able to manage fine the entire day.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Phoebz said:


> I think the best I could manage is about 4 hours in her crate, come home to walk her at lunch (or get a dog walker) and then back in the crate for 4 hours. I am home most of the week, but on those occasional days that I do need to go in to the office, I hate to leave her crated up. My job has been pretty flexible about minimal office days while she's super young, but I can feel that I am pushing my luck now.
> 
> 
> I'm feeling like a horrible dog mom, and I really hope I don't ruin the dear pup. but I'm getting a lot of good info here.


I don't see any reason why she couldn't be crated all day if necessary. It's just temporary, and it does not hurt a dog to be crated for the day while you are gone. Even if she were to come in heat at 6 or 7 months, which is pretty early for a standard, at that age she could be crated for 8 hours.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I can't help with advice about managing a heat as I've always had boys, but 4hrs in a crate with a break at lunchtime, then 4 more hours in a crate really should be fine. I don't think that's unreasonable at all, especially since it's temporary. I've left Hans longer than that, both when he was crated and when he's had run of the house.

Do you have a veterinary teaching hospital near you? When/if Hans gets a gastropexy and is neutered, that is where I plan to have it done. I'm about 2 hours from the UF teaching hospital, and they have a unit that specializes in gastropexies. They are also a lot less $ than my vet. I've used the teaching hospital for equine surgeries, and was very impressed, so I feel comfortable with them. I think a teaching hospital is worth looking into if your regular vet isn't familiar with the procedure.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

If you are talking about crating her while in heat due to her being" messy" from dribbles while she is in heat, then try some female panty garments to contain any discharge she may have. If she tolerates the garment without trying to remove it, then maybe you don't have to crate her. 

When Iris was a pup I crated her while at work 4 hrs, then home for lunch and zoomies in the yard and then 4 more hours crated. She welcomed her crate time and would just curl up and sleep.

I had her spayed at just around a year old, she had still not come into season at that age.

Now that she is elderly and incontinent sometimes at night she is wearing a panty garment at night and pays no attention it.

Best of luck. Don't stress out...you will figure out what works for you and your situation.

VQ


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## Phoebz (Apr 6, 2016)

Viking Queen said:


> If you are talking about crating her while in heat due to her being" messy" from dribbles while she is in heat, then try some female panty garments to contain any discharge she may have. If she tolerates the garment without trying to remove it, then maybe you don't have to crate her.


Thanks for the info! I am more concerned about the length of crate time because now the more I read the more I think I screwed up and gave her too much freedom to early. Our floor plan is very open, and I can keep an eye on her about 90% of the time, so while I teleworked she had some free roam. But she has snuck off to have a couple of accidents, and chew a chair, for example. I didn't crate her enough in weeks 8-15, and now I'm concerned she won't go for it if I try to crate her for longer periods. I have a spoiled dog with freedom she didn't earn, and it's all my fault! Is it too late to go back and increase the time? I was just using the crate for 1-2 hours for potty training and someone was in the room with her. So now if I leave the house, she starts wailing and calling dolphins, it's quite high pitched. 

Hopefully by 10-12 months (my new target time frame for spaying, thanks for the input) I can acclimate her to longer stays in there and she'll enjoy it. She has all the good things in there (frozen carrots, frozen kongs, favorite toys, treats when quiet) and I think I just need the confidence that we can build up her tolerance and enjoyment in there.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I do think you can still work up to longer times in the crate. Hans wasn't crated for very long as a small puppy because we are both self employed. Usually either one of us is working from home or he goes to work with us. We only started crating him longer because someone (wisely) suggested that we find reasons to leave him longer so he'd get used to it in case we needed to later on.

One thing I found that helped was getting him physically and mentally tired before trying a longer time left alone. Dogs, especially puppies, sleep a lot so if you can really tire her out so she's ready for a break she might be more inclined to sleep. Does she go lay in her crate on her own when she's sleepy? Or only if you make her? Do you let her out when she's crying?

Now Hans has free range of the house, but if I need to leave him for a couple of hours I make sure he's tired. I'm 99% sure he sleeps on his bed the entire time I am gone. Usually he's still sleeping on the bed when I come into the house.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Phoebz said:


> Thanks for the info! I am more concerned about the length of crate time because now the more I read the more I think I screwed up and gave her too much freedom to early. Our floor plan is very open, and I can keep an eye on her about 90% of the time, so while I teleworked she had some free roam. But she has snuck off to have a couple of accidents, and chew a chair, for example. I didn't crate her enough in weeks 8-15, and now I'm concerned she won't go for it if I try to crate her for longer periods. I have a spoiled dog with freedom she didn't earn, and it's all my fault! Is it too late to go back and increase the time? I was just using the crate for 1-2 hours for potty training and someone was in the room with her. So now if I leave the house, she starts wailing and calling dolphins, it's quite high pitched.
> 
> Hopefully by 10-12 months (my new target time frame for spaying, thanks for the input) I can acclimate her to longer stays in there and she'll enjoy it. She has all the good things in there (frozen carrots, frozen kongs, favorite toys, treats when quiet) and I think I just need the confidence that we can build up her tolerance and enjoyment in there.


Crating rule of thumb is that they can be crated and expected to be able to hold their bladder for the number of months they are old plus one. So a 2 month old puppy can be crated for 3 hours, 3 month old puppy 4 hours, 4 month old puppy can be crated for 5 hours, 5 month old puppy 6 hours and so forth. When I crate train, I start from the very beginning by building up to that time. Crate training is not only useful for potty training, but its also useful for building up the duration of time that they accept being crated, which is what most applies to your situation.

I am at work all day. I have multiple dogs and 1-2 are crated while 2 have the whole house. Since they are adults, sometimes I come home midday to let them out and sometimes I don't. But when they were puppies I always did up until probably about 6-7 months. The ones who are crated, they are adult dogs but crate trained from puppyhood, run right into their crate on their own when they hear me filling up their little water buckets. And sometimes when I am gone but my husband is home, they will choose to go in their crate and wait for me to get home!

I would say go back to basics. Your pup should be able to be crated for a good 4 hours at this age. If she throws a fit, just ignore. This too shall pass! Crate training always involves puppy screaming and it always stops happening - unless you cave in.


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## Phoebz (Apr 6, 2016)

FireStorm said:


> Does she go lay in her crate on her own when she's sleepy? Or only if you make her? Do you let her out when she's crying?


She steps in from time to time to check if the Treat Fairy has visited, but she prefers sleeping on the couch. I thought that was OK because I can see her there. But now I understand I should have enforced sleeping in the crate more to make it her snoozin' spot of choice. I do not let her out when she's crying until crying spell #2 which is when I think she needs to potty. I've been practicing going out the door, calling her on Skype, and waiting for the crying to stop before I come back in the house. It's been uhh.... a work in progress. 

My largest failure, and I know I'm getting way off topic here but I'm so frustrated with myself about this, is that in the beginning I started her on pee pads, and now she pees on any bed that I put out for her. So all pee pads and beds are gone until I can suss out the right thing to do for her next. (I had her checked for a UTI, she's perfectly healthy, I think just confused) So there's no bed in the crate, and thus, the couch is more comfy to her. 

I know, I know, I am such a n00b making all these mistakes!


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Don't be too hard on yourself! Everything that's going on can be fixed. I'd say, tire her out, make sure she doesn't have to potty, and put her in her crate. Don't let her out until she's quiet. If she stops crying and settles for a bit, let her out for another play/potty session.

If she gets let out when she cries, she's going to figure out that crying will get her let out. If she gets let out on the second round of crying, then she'll learn that she needs to do two rounds of crying to get out. Poodles are so smart, they know how to train their humans! You sound like you are on the right track with practicing leaving the house. It just takes consistency and patience.


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## Phoebz (Apr 6, 2016)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I would say go back to basics. Your pup should be able to be crated for a good 4 hours at this age. If she throws a fit, just ignore. This too shall pass! Crate training always involves puppy screaming and it always stops happening - unless you cave in.


I think that's what we have to do! Start at the beginning!... playing the crate games, treats for increasing periods of silence, and just being in there more often for appropriate lengths of time. I've just been creating my own problems with how lenient I've been about it. There are so many acclimation things, I don't know how people do it all! We spend time in the car while it's off just to get her over that anxiety, the nail dremel, the clippers, cleaning her ears (the worst!), all these things. Touch and treat, all the time. This is just one more thing that she needs to acclimate to.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Phoebz, good for you for reintroducing crate training. I did not do it for my last dog, and when she was ill in hospital, her anxiety remained high because she had to be in one of the hospital cage systems, which would have been crate-sized.

The DVD called Crate Games can be a fun tool to use. Need to find mine so Oliver and I can do some practicing. He uses his crate well, but doesn't love it so I need to get him more enjoyment there.

And I agree with the others, consider looking into a new vet. You might contact the Texas-based Poodle clubs and great breeders in your new State for recommendations. Hugs, you'll work this out and both be fine .


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## Phoebz (Apr 6, 2016)

Update: So I called around, I found one facility near us that has a board certified surgeon and does the laparoscopic gastropexy + spay procedure. 
Pros: less invasive, heals faster Cons: it costs $2000 more than the regular incision kind of pexi procedure at her vet office

I'm having a hard time convincing my husband that this is necessary!


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