# Shopping Cart Heel



## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

OK PF, I've got a puzzler. When I'm pushing a shopping cart, Noelle pulls on the leash. She keeps even with the side of the cart, instead of staying next to me. Stop and re-position gets her back even with my leg, but as soon as I move the cart, she wants to be even with the cart and ahead of me.

Hmm, how can I help Noelle understand that even though I'm pushing a cart, she should stay next to me? Has anyone trained a dog to stay beside them while pushing a stroller?

Ideas?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Just yesterday I had Javelin with me and was pushing a cart around in Lowes. He left the leash loose but did want to forge ahead of me and follow the cart, so I know exactly what you are talking about. Since Javvy has a very distinctive meaning for heel to be a position when working in a ring I didn't want to mess that up by telling him heel when we were in the store. I just kept stopping and letting him check in with me then showing him to come close to my left leg. It will take some more work but I am sure he will pick it up pretty quickly. I am sure Noelle will figure it out fast since you will probably practice this more than Javelin and I will.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Babykins does the same thing - and I think it's because she's nervous about the grocery cart. Since I don't take her shopping with grocery carts often I haven't given it any thought.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

It probably seems like an appropriate thing to target, since it's bigger than we are. I'm glad I'm not the only one. Noelle was terrified of shopping carts six months ago, but we use one every few days so she's gotten comfortable.

The "Heel" command is a specific behavior for us, too. And I don't blame you for not wanting to use it. I use, "with me!" for let's walk together. But, it's not working. Maybe I'll have to train walking beside me and not the cart using a brand new command. Something that I only use when we're using a shopping cart. Hmm.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Can you try moving the cart in unexpected ways and rewarding her for sticking with you? Depends on how nimble your cart is, of course, and how much room you have to work with. But what if you try standing still while you push the cart arm's length, or turning the cart one way while you go the other? When I work/proof "close" (my casual heel) with Archie, I like to pivot around in all sorts of directions, so that he knows he has to pay attention and that the command is about my position, not speed or direction or any other factor he might be associating with it. I imagine you could do something similar with the shopping cart.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually trained this, as walking behind a shopping cart is actually one situation in which Archie never tries to pull, for some reason. Like if I want him to stop pulling at the store, I grab a cart and he gets right in line. Maybe they make him nervous, I don't know.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

That's a thought. Turn the cart right and we go left might be interesting. I'll have to find an isolated spot in the store to practice. Noelle is funny. There are spots in the store where she heels and looks up at me the whole time, and other areas where she lines up with the cart. She seems to, and this is going to sound crazy, remember the areas of the store where she got a jackpot once. 

Weird. Adorable. But weird.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That's a poodle for you!


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Lily,

Noelle is my first poodle. I've trained lots of other breeds, but this one takes the cake. She seems to learn very differently from other dogs. In huge chunks, taking in far more information than what I was expecting. Such as her confident proud poodle heeling strut through the shampoo aisle. She learned, somehow, that what is expected of her in that location is a perfect snappy heel. Head up, eyes looking at my face, even with my leg, and strutting. 

We reach the end of the aisle, and she seems to tell herself, well, we're done with that exercise. Let me hang out next to the cart and pull a little bit. 

In the store line, Noelle hangs out in a down between the cart and my feet. Then she sits beside the conveyor belt. She is quiet, patient, perfect. I buy my stuff. And then Noelle leads me to the door to leave. And by leave, I mean lines up with the cart and pulls ahead. Okay, we walked around, we bought stuff, we paid for it, and now it's time to go. And she will take me directly to the exit and make a right turn. She knows the pattern. 

Now that I realize this, it's time to go in a totally different order, and go the opposite way through the shampoo aisle, and exit through a different door. I swear this dog keeps me on my toes like a ballerina. Is this a poodle thing?


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

I just love Noelle.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

We go to Canadian tire most weekends and mostly to get the girls out and about with people. Sometimes I'll take a cart and found both girls would forge ahead beside the cart, what I did was put my left hand in the Center of the handle so the cart was in front of them, and held the leash with my right hand. It's usually enough to keep them beside me, I also like to make several turns in both directions when we start out to make sure I have their attention.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Caddy, 

I think you're on to something. You do focus work when you arrive. Me, I go shopping. Grab a cart and let's get going... down the shampoo aisle first usually, strutting poodle in tow. I'm going to do this differently. Spend time working on focusing her attention, and then shop. And randomize things so she doesn't rely on her pattern thinking ninja skills.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I have trained Lucky with shopping carts but he does the same thing. I have been super sick lately and I have not worked on training. I have worked with Kit on this a few weeks ago on shopping cart heel and she is extremely good because she is super food motivated and one of the first things I did with her is focus. I have Shana Cohen's book to thank because that is the first thing she recommends. So when I am out with Kit she is very good at listening to me MOST of the time. If I have a treat and I say focus she heels at the correct position and looks right up like a border collie. Lucky doesn't care about the treats he is also uncomfortable staring back at you in the eye so we still have heel issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Must be a pretty common issue because when we worked with service dog teams we used to practice "shopping cart" heeling by going out in the parking lot and putting away the stray carts. Of course, we had some favorite parking lots that were not too busy, but I remember it seemed to be a skill that everyone needed to practice.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Well, I discovered something in the store today. I can use the cart to block Noelle, by turning it into her path when she forges ahead. Then she backs up to avoid being bonked.
Now, if I consistently start turning the cart into her path the second she forges, Noelle will learn that's a bad place to be.

My new command is "Together." I like it. Together, means stay next to me not the cart, silly.

We were successful about 20% of our trip, which is much better than .04% of our trip. Onward and upward, Noelle.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

When you say, "together" are you saying it ONLY when she's in the right position? I'd skip the verbal cue altogether until she gets more regular in her proper positioning...till she starts getting onto it better. Then pair it with the correct position, then finally...down the road you can use it to elicit the behavior. 

Are you clicking and treating _frequently_ the whole time where she _IS _in the right position? I think making random turns is good but be sure you're giving her lots of feed back when she is in the right place. Make a fuss when she's where you want her. (if you're not already) I bet she'll get onto it pretty soon. It's good she's able to give you her attention easily.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Yes, I reward when she's in the right place and I've been rewarding. However, she's not getting the message across that my side is the only place she's allowed to go. So, the little tilt to the left cart block move gets her back into position. And understand this is a gentle tilt with the cart, not a body check. The cart never touches her. I do reward and praise when she's in the right spot. She'll get the idea. I haven't added the cue yet.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

LOL. I didn't think you were body slamming her with the cart...you silly. I get what you mean...more like herding her back in position. (?) Well, she'll get onto it when it doesn't work to heel to the cart. I practice this too with my two poodles in places like Walmart or Home Depot. I've done this since they were old enough to get out and about town...just one more potentially scary thing to get use to...walking close to a big, noisy cart. They stay pretty well near my side. I'm not super particular...just don't want them to get hurt by the cart so they have to stay back closer to me. Well...good luck. No doubt she'll get it.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

The little motion to block forward progress worked really well. Toy dogs could get hurt by a cart. Noelle is 18" at the withers. She's about knee high. A medium/small dog and a good fit for me.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

_Any_ dog could get hurt by a cart. I've been hurt by a cart. Some kid pushed a cart right into the back of me and hurt my ankle quite badly once. One thing about my little toy dogs is that they naturally are very careful about where they are and what's going on around them. They're use to walking along side me without forging ahead in other contexts and they just generalize that to walking with a cart I guess. I didn't really train them for that specifically.



Wow, I didn't realize Noelle was that tall. My knees are at about 15" so she would come up near my thighs! She's into standard size, isn't she.


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## rj16 (Jan 30, 2017)

I would never have guessed that Noelle was that tall from pictures. That sounds like such a perfect size honestly. How much does she weigh, if you don't mind?


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Noelle is 20 pounds and a little too thin. She would look better if she was 22, 23 pounds. Noelle is tall enough to put her paws on the counter. Yes, she's more like a very small standard than a slightly oversized mini. According to the AKC she is a standard poodle because she's more than 15 inches at the withers.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

To give you a size difference, Francis is 15 pounds and 13 inches tall. Look how much bigger Miss Noelle is. She towers over Francis.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Update from the update desk. Noelle has been working on walking with me and a shopping cart. She's getting the idea that at my side is the place to be. Today I got tremendous eye contact. It was a whole lot of fun taking her out. She's really starting to get what is expected in public. 

I think we'll go on a bigger adventure soon.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I had no doubts that you two would connect that up!


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

*Sit for petting is a total failure*

Maybe when Noelle is 10 she will learn to sit for petting. She still gets way too excited. It's ridiculous. She goes from calm, cool, and collected to leaping like a wild jackrabbit on a leash, or crouching down and belly scooting toward the person who wants to pet her. 

"Oh, your dog is so pretty, can I pet her?"
"Only if she sits."
Noelle sits.
Person approaches.
Noelle's sit becomes a coiled spring waiting for release. 
Person touches Noelle's topknot. 
Noelle goes boom! Pet me! Pet me! Pet meeeeeeeee! I am so happy to meet you! Wow! You're the nicest person in the world. Look how much I can wiggle. Watch me scoot my head between your feet and flop over on my back. Look, I just melted. Pet my belly please. I loves that.
"Oh, your dog is the cutest thing. Oh, she's so adorable!"
Noelle is rewarded with a belly rub while wiggling on her back.

This sucks.
This sucks.

Strangers ignore my instructions to pet her only if she sits, which is making this crazy behavior repeat. It's highly rewarding and Noelle enjoys the attention. Going ballistic when petted is now a randomly reinforced behavior. Random positive reinforcement is the most powerful force in the universe. It's what makes people spend 15 hours putting money in a slot machine. Random positive reinforcement from strangers is destroying my ability to train this. 
We're in a vicious cycle and it's making me extremely frustrated. 

Noelle has learned she has to genuflect for petting, not sit and stay calmly. It's highly reinforcing for her to genuflect and explode, especially when people praise her for it and they do it at least 50% of the time. 

The only thing I can think of to do with the cooing people is to say, 
"You can pet Noelle when she is sitting _*and calm*_." 
And interrupt them *before* they pet her, if she moves a muscle. "Sorry, you can't pet her, she's not calm."

I've worked on this for months and gotten no where. Any other ideas? I'm really tired of this not working.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I mean for this to be it's on thread, but hey, it happens when I'm shopping. Sigh.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

We used to set up practice sessions with well trained volunteers. It was always a stranger to the dog, but it might have been family members to other team members. We would set up little stations in different settings (park, shopping centers, homes)and the dog would approach the stranger, or be approached... then the rules had to be followed about only petting when the dog was positioned properly. If any "outsiders" approached we used the opportunity to practicing saying that the dog was working and could not be petted right now. A lot of service dog owners have a hard time saying "no", so this is good exercise to practice. By having practice sessions with four or five people in a row who followed the calm petting rules, the dogs really started to catch on about the desired behavior. Ideally this set up would be done at least twice a week until the dog caught on.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Maybe if you say something like, "She needs to stay sitting while you pet her," that would help? I think if you just say that she needs to sit, people assume you mean she needs to sit _before _they can pet her, not that she has to stay sitting the entire time. That's what I find, anyway.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Are you standing next to Noelle when this is happening? Maybe even crouching down next to her and holding her collar to control her movement? And of course marking her behavior with a "yes" or "click" and treat? When I first started, I had a similar problem. I had to hold her down while someone petted her. Only when I felt she had settled down did I release my grip and slowly stand up next to her. 

She's really good now when we're in competition class where she has to stand for exam while I'm 6 feet away from her. I've been taking her to stores and other public places like the library for people to "pet". 

But in the park when we meet up with friends - oops, she reverts back to the overly excited to meet her long lost friend that is so wiggly and sometimes bouncy and jumping up which is a huge embarrassment. This is partly my fault because in the park I'm more relaxed with her and she takes advantage. I need to work on this myself.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Glad to know I'm not the only one who is embarrassed by this. Maybe people do think I mean she needs to sit before they pet her. So, Noelle just does her genuflect/explode routine. We really are getting no where. 

Sigh.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Maybe for the time being tell most people "no she is working rather than only if she sits." This way there is no chance of the person getting her charged up with the extra comments about how cute and wonderful she is (which we know she is). Clearly those extra comments are potentially inadvertent reinforcers of the excited behavior that you want to quell.

I really liked Charmed descriptions of controlled practice on that type of meet and greet behavior. Now we all just need to get into our Star Trek transporters and hop on out your way to be the volunteer greeter practice folks.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Yes, I wish I could beam you all over. For now, I won't allow her to greet people any more. She has a severe greeting disorder and I need to allow a long, long gap of time (weeks) before we try training it again from scratch.

Two more weeks of CGC prep class. Noelle has done extremely well. She actually sat for having her feet touched and ears looked at, so that was big progress. Supervised separation is something else to work on. 

It's a work in progress. But, at least we did get our shopping cart manners figured out.


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