# direct quotes from a breeders website...



## *heather*

I was browsing through a website of a breeder in my area last night and the longer I read, the more I found myself shaking my head and kinda wondering if these people were for real! any thoughts? Here are some examples of things that kinda made me go, "huh?" 

_"Born on our leather sofa, right in the comfort of our living room, our dogs are socialized from day one..." _ that's kinda gross

"Our poodles are bred to our personal standards. We do not breed for what is popular today, rather for what we think are the best qualities of the standard poodle--and we always will." wow, who made them the experts?! and what about breed standard? 

"Our puppies are given constant supervision 24 hours a day for the first 3 weeks of their life." kinda hard to believe isn't it? they currently have puppies from 4 or 5 different litters! that's a lot of pups to be watching 24/7 

"A puppy trained not to bark, bite too hard, or jump up". whatever!? 


"A puppy handled every 15 minutes 7 days a week for the first 3 weeks of their life." SERIOUSLY! do people actually believe this crap?! wow

There is no mention (that I could find) about any health testing on their breeding stock. Big red flag in my opinion. Also, they don't groom puppies faces prior to sending them home, but they do perform spay and neuter BEFORE pups go home (Pediatric spay/neuter) ... 
what's ironic to me as well, is that the TV show "Animal Planet" was there to film a documentary a few months ago... so the general public is being told these are good people to get a puppy from (with NO Health testing!)
Their Red Standards are priced at $2600. This is a pet quality puppy! 
Nuts if you ask me :crazy:


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## thestars

You must be talking about Pendragon Poodles in regards to price. The darker the red the higher the value since that is what most people are demanding a dark red puppy. Typically the request is for "a Dark Red Female." If people are willing to buy then that's the going rate.

As for pediatric Spay/Neuter, that ensures that puppy is not going to be used in any breeding program, you buy it as a pet why not have the deed done so you don't have to pay for it in the next few months yourself. That's a several hundred dollar expense that you won't have to pay for thus you can put that money in getting a better quality pet. Some problems with just supplying a Limited Registration;
1. people that breed "oodles" don't' care about limited registration
2. people that breed "purebred no papers" do not care about limited registration
3. people use papers from another poodle to "paper" the puppy they bought from you will not care about papers. YES, it happens!
It helps prevent the brokers out there from obtaining a pup used in designer breeding or backyard breeding. I'm sure you've seen those type of horrors on TV and these forums. Would you care to see Rogan babies all over your local area mixed bred so you can't sell your Quality poodles? Cause you know that people will look at the price of a dog. They have a particular price point they won't pay over. What would you tell the potential customer that wants to stud your Red poodle to their Lab or another breed? It helps keep the supply and demand equal too. If everyone out there had the capability to breed then you'd get Poodles all over of low quality health and more would be seen in shelters.

As for grooming the puppies faces before they go home, that is a choice. I prefer to do it and love the clean shaved face but then you have the requests to keep the fluffy face. My Husband loves the cute poodle puppy faces, he rather not have their faces shaved down then they look like adults to fast. Also, you have to work and train those little squiggly puppies to get them groomed. Some are more easier then others. Also, more people are asking for undocked tails. Someone from England correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is now out-lawed in England unless you can show proof that this will be a working dog. So there is choices for people. Exactly what we the people ask for; the freedom to choose what we want. We can't protect all the gullible or naive people from making the wrong choice in breeding or buying the "right" poodle.


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## *heather*

*thestars*, I have a lot of respect for you and the knowledge you have in the poodle world! I am so completely out of my league here, but I'll give it a shot  

my biggest concern is the lack of adherence to breed standard. doesn't this bother you just a touch? I'm new to this whole poodle thing, so maybe I'm out of line, but still, I just think this could really cause a lot of problems down the road. And no health testing? 
I sent her an email asking specifically about what tests they run, and her response was to call her and we could talk about it! maybe there are tests they run and she wanted to explain that to me in more detail, but why not just answer my question, makes me wonder. 

pediatric Spay/Neuter - from what I know, this can affect proper growth and is not ideal for the health of the puppy. I realize this prevents people from breeding doodles and unregistered litters etc, but should the health of the dog really be compromised to accomplish this? 

What would you tell the potential customer that wants to stud your Red poodle to their Lab or another breed? - I would tell them NO, it's not an option. 

Also, you have to work and train those little squiggly puppies to get them groomed. - isn't this a good reason to start early, make it a touch easier on the new owners? I guess I just feel that they can take the time and energy to spay/neuter then certainly they could take the time to get them used to clippers and being handled for grooming. 

I'm a big fan of un-docked tails  

I'm going to stop there, I need to learn to keep my mouth shut, I don't want to step on toes ... I'm really just trying to learn as much as I can... and what I saw here was just a little surprising to me, that's all...


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## thestars

*heather* said:


> *thestars*, I have a lot of respect for you and the knowledge you have in the poodle world! I am so completely out of my league here, but I'll give it a shot
> 
> my biggest concern is the lack of adherence to breed standard. doesn't this bother you just a touch? I'm new to this whole poodle thing, so maybe I'm out of line, but still, I just think this could really cause a lot of problems down the road. And no health testing?
> I sent her an email asking specifically about what tests they run, and her response was to call her and we could talk about it! maybe there are tests they run and she wanted to explain that to me in more detail, but why not just answer my question, makes me wonder. I was not defending Pendragon nor any breeder. A responsible breeder should be providing health testing and should have a goal of breeding to the standard. Now it's their choice to publish the testing. Unethical people have used other peoples results as there own too. It's not that hard with computers these days. There are many tests and maybe some of her stock is clear by parentage. It does appear fishy but If you are really interested you should have called.
> 
> pediatric Spay/Neuter - from what I know, this can affect proper growth and is not ideal for the health of the puppy. I realize this prevents people from breeding doodles and unregistered litters etc, but should the health of the dog really be compromised to accomplish this? All I can say is that is endorsed by the American Veterinary Medical Association and MANY others. If all these major organizations and studies support it and These doctors are the ones whom are knowledgeable in the health of our animals then I trust their judgment. http://earlyspayneuter.blogspot.com/
> http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/PedSpayNeuter.htm http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedSNVetJournals%5B1%5D.pdf
> 
> What would you tell the potential customer that wants to stud your Red poodle to their Lab or another breed? - I would tell them NO, it's not an option. Good! Stick to your goals and learn what you need to to pass on good genetics in the breed. If for any moment you can't be committed then spay or neuter. Puppies change so much...the quiet little puppy can become the raging monster.
> 
> Also, you have to work and train those little squiggly puppies to get them groomed. - isn't this a good reason to start early, make it a touch easier on the new owners? I guess I just feel that they can take the time and energy to spay/neuter then certainly they could take the time to get them used to clippers and being handled for grooming. You haven't seen the little kids cry yet that you "wrecked" their puppy! As I said I prefer to do it and get them trained however their are a lot of pet people who want their little fluffy dog. Of course you can still take care of the pads and butt to keep messes down. I wouldn't consider this as anything but the choice of that particular breeder.
> 
> I'm a big fan of un-docked tails  Until un-docked or dew claws are acceptable by the major clubs and in shows then a breeder who would like their prized and well bred dogs should have that opportunity to show like the others.
> 
> I'm going to stop there, I need to learn to keep my mouth shut, I don't want to step on toes ... I'm really just trying to learn as much as I can... and what I saw here was just a little surprising to me, that's all...


Never stop learning nor don't keep your mouth shut, if people don't speak up then change will never happen. If these particular breeders see and hear what others have to say then they may change their ways and others wanting to learn about the breed may not benefit from learning. Just be careful of defamatory remarks they can be used against you in a court of law. They should also have the opportunity to defend what they say or do.:dog:


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## PonkiPoodles

*heather* said:


> I'm a big fan of un-docked tails


Sometimes breeders dock not because it's their own personal preference but because of what the public demand is. 
By this I mean... I know in the doberman world a lot of breeders crop and dock their dogs because if an owner can no longer keep the doberman studies show that people would rather adopt a cropped and docked dog before they adopt a dog that is all natural. Thus a cropped and docked dog has a better chance at being rehomed than a dog that isn't.


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## mercymoon

LOL Born on leather sofa got me! My grandpa's girlfriend's Chi had her pups in the middle of the night in the bed with THEM...now that is gross, yuck!:heh:


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## Poodle Lover

Heather,

You didn't step on anyone's toes and you shouldn't keep your mouth shut. I am not sure who the breeder is, but if they breed their super expensive puppies without health testing them, I would run and fast!!! I also don't get breeding to their own standard.....I can't believe people actually fall for that!


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## Purple Poodle

PonkiPoodles said:


> Sometimes breeders dock not because it's their own personal preference but because of what the public demand is.
> By this I mean... I know in the doberman world a lot of breeders crop and dock their dogs because if an owner can no longer keep the doberman studies show that people would rather adopt a cropped and docked dog before they adopt a dog that is all natural. Thus a cropped and docked dog has a better chance at being rehomed than a dog that isn't.


Not to go off in another direction but thats kind of a cop out if you ask me. The real reason they won't go natural is because the ears will rose and the tails will curl up over the back  thus looking nothing like a Dobie.

Anyway there are a lot of "breeder" out there who will do and say anything to try and doop people into buying a puppy.


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## Bella's Momma

I have to say when it said puppies are touched every 15 minute I envisioned them being turned a little like eggs. LOL.


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## Poodle Lover

Bella's Momma said:


> I have to say when it said puppies are touched every 15 minute I envisioned them being turned a little like eggs. LOL.


Ha, ha, ha!!!! ROTFL


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## PonkiPoodles

Purple Poodle said:


> Not to go off in another direction but thats kind of a cop out if you ask me. The real reason they won't go natural is because the ears will rose and the tails will curl up over the back  thus looking nothing like a Dobie.
> 
> Anyway there are a lot of "breeder" out there who will do and say anything to try and doop people into buying a puppy.


Actually, if bred correctly the ears should fall the same than a beagle's, and this information do not come from breeders but from shelters and doberman rescues.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6nHZT6hAyoc/R158HSSQCPI/AAAAAAAAAAs/3vM9PcBcRHc/s320/Doberman+Pinscher.jpg

If they want to ban anything it should be circumcision.


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## jak

In new zealand you can't crop ears, and so all the dobes have floppy ears like a beagles.
We have a dobe and his ears are really big and floppy, no chance of going up lol


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## Purple Poodle

PonkiPoodles said:


> Actually, if bred correctly the ears should fall the same than a beagle's, and this information do not come from breeders but from shelters and doberman rescues.
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6nHZT6hAyoc/R158HSSQCPI/AAAAAAAAAAs/3vM9PcBcRHc/s320/Doberman+Pinscher.jpg
> 
> If they want to ban anything it should be circumcision.


Thats just it, American Dobies are not bred with natural ears/tails in mind so they do not always look like they should.


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## *heather*

Bella's Momma said:


> I have to say when it said puppies are touched every 15 minute I envisioned them being turned a little like eggs. LOL.





Poodle Lover said:


> Ha, ha, ha!!!! ROTFL


:laugh: what a bunch of weirdo's... I'm just surprised people believe it!


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## PonkiPoodles

Purple Poodle said:


> Thats just it, American Dobies are not bred with natural ears/tails in mind so they do not always look like they should.


True, they dock & crop too early to even know what they have.

:focus:
Having puppies on their sofa!?!?!?!... sounds creepy to me! I love my dog but that sounds really nasty. I would stay away from someone who breeds and do no health testing what so ever. How do they ensure their line stays healthy/clean from serious genetic diseases?


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## Winnow

mercymoon said:


> LOL Born on leather sofa got me! My grandpa's girlfriend's Chi had her pups in the middle of the night in the bed with THEM...now that is gross, yuck!:heh:


Hehe we are expecting pups in a month and my hubby was asking if she could just whelp in our bed since she sleeps there.
I just told him that he would change his mind rather quickly if he knew how messy business it is to whelp puppies


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Heather....

I have marvelled at all of this myself. I knew who you were speaking of the instant I began reading your post. There are three breeders here in Ontario that I continually shake my heead about, and they are one of them.

When I heard Animal Planet was featuring them on Breeder of the Pack, I contacted the station to tell them that I and a few other breeders I know would boycott their channel. They did get back to me saying they were doing this because one of their staff bought from this breeder and "were just tickled with the annual puppy party" so would go ahead as planned. Well, in my mind, the people buying their pups are paying for the party, because they are charging over $1,000 more than the average red breeder here for their pups, so maybe we should all do that. Charge a ridiculolus fortune for our pups, open up the place one day a year for a BBQ, have a lovely cake made, send home a few goodies for the dogs that attend then bank the extra $900 we got for our pups over and above the cost per family for the party. It made me so angry, when there are breeders who test, breed good quality dogs, do things right and have been in the business for years who could have been featured but weren't. I told AP it was not sour grapes, because I would not have wanted them to do a story on me. I am way to small volume for something like that.

Did you notice on the show that they had a brand new litter of babies in the living room, with camera crews and about 200 people and their dogs clomping all over the house (with their shoes on)? Scared me half to death for the sake of those babies. I would not let one person near those pups with their shoes and unwashed hands let alone the herd that was on the show.

I am with you and do NOT agree with the early spay/neuter program. I believe it alters the appearance of the pups and does not give them the opportunity to be all they can be.

I have heard horror stories about the movement of their puppies, being told a number of them hop as oppposed to the elegant glide we are used to. In speaking with other breeders and vets, I have learned this is usually an indication of hip trouble.

I do not agree with anything they are doing. In my opinion I do not think their dogs are nice looking or well put together, I don't agree with spaying/neutering so young, don't like that people come and go when there are young babies in the home, cannot fathom what they charge for their pups, the no mention of ANY testing is scary.... Thanks for bringing this up Heather. They sit quietly flying under the radar, except for the odd thing like the AP show, and it infuriates me personally that with all of this going on, they would be the one breeder of Standard Poodles who gets featured on such a show. GRRRRRRR!!

I for one would not be remotely impressed being greeted by 15 ungroomed, messy Standard Poodles if I went to visit.

You should not ever be afraid of stepping on someone's toes here. You will find compadres who will agree with you along the way, and those who don't will just have to agree to disagree with your opinion.


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## Winnow

I love that they say that they don't breed for solid color but for solid body's.
But they the price the puppy depending on the color of the puppy 

http://www.pendragonpoodles.com/index.php?pg=poodles&subpg=youget
http://www.pendragonpoodles.com/index.php?pg=adopt&subpg=pricing

I just feel bad for Penndragon poodles for having to have a kennel name so similar to them :S


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

It is not defamtion if it is truth, so as long as you speak the truth, you do not need to worry about lawsuits.


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## cbrand

Winnow said:


> http://www.pendragonpoodles.com/index.php?pg=poodles&subpg=youget


Ugh.... So basically they are saying that they don't breed to the Standard? 



> I just feel bad for Penndragon poodles for having to have a kennel name so similar to them :S


Yah, I'm sure that Kim Bates LOVES the fact that their kennel name is so close to hers. 

These folks are on my personal poop list. They sold two puppies at once to a woman here in Boulder. She called me because the dogs were out of control and at 6+ months, she could not get them trained or house broken. She was at her wits end and her husband was pitching a fit. I tried to help her but the truth is that two at once were just too much for her. (This is why breeders should not sell two puppies at the same time!!!!!!) 

I recommended that she return one of the dogs or give it up to rescue. In the end, she didn't want to because she had paid close to $3000 per puppy when you figure in travel costs.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

This is just my opinion, but having watched the Breeder of the Pack episode before I boycotted the channel, it appears the whole place is out of control. Dogs and pups everywhere, people coming and going all the time, CRAZINESS!!

I have had contact with a woman put a very large deposit on a pup from them from a specific breeding that never did take place, and she never did get her money back. She was not impressed. I suggested she write a letter to The Sqeaky Wheel to attempt to get her money back, but to date she hasn't done anything about it.

They are memebrs of the Apricot Red poodle Club and the Poodle Club of Canada, so people see that and assume if gives them some legitimacy.


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## roxy25

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> They are memebrs of the Apricot Red poodle Club and the Poodle Club of Canada, so people see that and assume if gives them some legitimacy.


:amen: Another person with common sense here ! lol 

I dunno why people think just because you are part of a club does not me you can't do wrong?

Its just like saying o he is a christian he would never lie wth ? ( I actually had someone say that to me ...)


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## roxy25

cbrand said:


> Ugh.... So basically they are saying that they don't breed to the Standard?
> 
> 
> 
> Yah, I'm sure that Kim Bates LOVES the fact that their kennel name is so close to hers.
> 
> These folks are on my personal poop list. They sold two puppies at once to a woman here in Boulder. She called me because the dogs were out of control and at 6+ months, she could not get them trained or house broken. She was at her wits end and her husband was pitching a fit. I tried to help her but the truth is that two at once were just too much for her. (This is why breeders should not sell two puppies at the same time!!!!!!)
> 
> I recommended that she return one of the dogs or give it up to rescue. In the end, she didn't want to because she had paid close to $3000 per puppy when you figure in travel costs.



All of that does that matter cbrand, remember its all about the red poodles and money ! i can't believe you forgot this already ( sarcasm lol )


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## KPoos

Having squirmy puppies not hold still for grooming is the sorriest excuse for not grooming puppies I've ever heard! You are the breeder, you are the one responsible to teach the puppy before it goes to it's new home. I mean get real. The puppies will eventually be groomed by someone and it's better for puppy, new owner, and the future groomer, if the puppy knows what a clipper is, knows what a grooming table is, knows what a bath is, knows how to sit still for short periods of time. 

In my opinion this is part of how you can separate the good breeders from the bad. If they aren't willing to put in the effort to train the puppies how to be groomed, what makes you think they'd put in the effort in any other area? So they will handle them 24/7 but they won't take the 30 mins a week to teach them how to be groomed...right.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

If a family asked me not to clip their pups face, I would agree to that, but only after clipping at four or five weeks old to get photos of what the puppy looks like, so at least one face clip before it leaves. It would have its feet done at least twice, and one or two baths and blow outs. I think a lot of breeders don't do the typical stuff most do because it is just easier on them and has nothing to do with what is best for their puppies. I also make certain their grooms are done in calm circumstances (I would never do them if I had other things that needed doing). I want them to remember it as a pleasant experience and be good for their people and their groomer. After all, they are Poodles, and will be groomed their entire life. They may as well like it, or at least tolerate it.


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## KPoos

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> If a family asked me not to clip their pups face, I would agree to that, but only after clipping at four or five weeks old to get photos of what the puppy looks like, so at least one face clip before it leaves. It would have its feet done at least twice, and one or two baths and blow outs. I think a lot of breeders don't do the typical stuff most do because it is just easier on them and has nothing to do with what is best for their puppies. I also make certain their grooms are done in calm circumstances (I would never do them if I had other things that needed doing). I want them to remember it as a pleasant experience and be good for their people and their groomer. After all, they are Poodles, and will be groomed their entire life. They may as well like it, or at least tolerate it.


Exactly you would have already introduced them to the idea of grooming. Even a dog that has a teddy bear cut is groomed. The feet that aren't poodle clipped are still groomed. So there is nothing behind it other than laziness on the part of the breeder because like you said, they are poodles and will be groomed the rest of their lives.


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## Winnow

cbrand said:


> These folks are on my personal poop list. They sold two puppies at once to a woman here in Boulder. She called me because the dogs were out of control and at 6+ months, she could not get them trained or house broken. She was at her wits end and her husband was pitching a fit. I tried to help her but the truth is that two at once were just too much for her. (This is why breeders should not sell two puppies at the same time!!!!!!)
> 
> I recommended that she return one of the dogs or give it up to rescue. In the end, she didn't want to because she had paid close to $3000 per puppy when you figure in travel costs.


That is hard I had Dima's brother for 3 weeks when they where 6 months old.
It was the busiest 3 weeks ever for me, but they had a constant party 

Never doing that again :S


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## Mercury's Mom

They sound like breeders who dont care what's best for the dogs who do whatever they want and make up fancy excuses for it.

I also pictured turning the pups like eggs every 15 min. lol. I have a few questions about that practice (as if it's true). If the pups are handeled every 15 min. wouldn't that mean they aren't allowed to get the proper sleep a baby needs to grow? In just about every book I've seen about how to raise a pup it clearly states that when you bring a new pup home you shouldn't let your kids wake it up very often for its emotional and physical health. Wouldn't that be especially true when they are newborns? Also, would the pups ever learn how to self sooth? Wouldn't it make it much more likely to have seperation anxiety issues? 

I thought a natural tail was allowed in AKC but it just makes it harder to win. Did I missunderstand that? I hope natural tails become more accepted here, I think they're beautiful if groomed right. 

I think Ive gotten lucky with my boys so far because it seems easier having two at a time. Granted, they self potty trained and I didn't get them till they were 4 months old. Ive also had a spoo before so knew what it takes and have made a huge effort to raise them right. Im lovin' it. They compliment each other's personality. We'll see how that's going when they're teenagers though. I admit that I love having littermates as they play together and wear themselves out. It doesn't hurt that I have a maternal dog as well who helps keep them in line.

I find it sad that people think quality automatically comes with a big price tag. Would they think that if a kia cost more than a bmw? I doubt kia would stay in buisness long, but sadly it doesn't seem to work that way with breeders


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## Peter

*Pendragon Poodles, Heather Pendragon is fruad, took my money total sum of $2000*

I bought my poodle from pendragon poodle. The lady name Heather sold me the puppy. The puppy was 20 weeks old. She charged me $2000 for that poodle. She was all fake and so pushy for me to buy that puppy. I did buy that puppy but after a month there was some family emergency had arisen and I had to return the puppy to Heather since in the contract it says that puppy should come to the breeder if owner cant afford it. 

So I did what I could to help that puppy but can you beleive it? After getting the puppy back from me she turned out to be complete mean? She started talking to me rudely...stoped picking up my phones. It has been 3 month now since I havent gotten my money back yet.

When I call her she says do not call here or otherwise I will report to the police. I can even show you guys the nasty email she has sent me after poodle being returned. 

"Every email is another "favor" Minhaj. I have a life...I run a business I've rescheduled my ENTIRE day to come tomorrow and I do understand you're hurting but ENOUGH. OK? 

I'll be there tomorrow. You have no idea of the things you have asked already and what a HUGE compromise this has been. I put my OWN dog down (to sleep...DEAD) on Thursday, I AM GRIEVING! After 15.5 years...THAT is pain and loss. You've had Azlan a week. Now...you wondered before if you'd made me mad...NO ONE can "Make" you anything without your permission. I'm not mad at you. 

No other breeder I know would do this. No one would have delivered him to you for FREE in the first place and NO ONE would certainly be coming to get him now. A THANK YOU might have been in order, don't you think?" 

I did say thank you to her, I hugged her when she picked up the poodle, I paid her $100 to deliver the puppy at the first time and $100 to take the puppy back, now can you imagine she turning back on me like that?


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## plumcrazy

Without knowing both sides of the story, it's hard to make a judgement. According to the email you posted here, I don't find it "nasty" at all. Blunt maybe, but not nasty.

It sounds like the breeder honored her contract to take the puppy back if you couldn't take care of him anymore. Did your contract also state you would get a full or partial refund if it was your choice to return him? That would be a rare contract element if so. I would think most breeders would only refund if there was something wrong with the puppy they sold you - not if you just didn't want it anymore.

I'm sorry it didn't work out with your puppy. Enjoying life with a Standard Poodle is an exceptional privilege - there really is nothing like it!! I hope your family emergency worked itself out and everyone is OK.

Barb


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## Peter

*Lost both ways*

It did say on the contract that I will get a full refund if I cannot keep him or puppy is not able to adjust within 3 weeks. She didn't let me sell that puppy to anyone else. She even took all the contract papers and everything..and stupid me didn't have chance to even photocopy any of those papers. I tried calling her so many times and emailed her but she threatened me to call the police on me. I regret so much until this day to give my dog to her. I lost both ways. Neither I got my money nor I got to enjoy my life with that dog.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Peter...I would suggest you contact a paralegal and have him send them a letter explaining you will pursue your refund in small claims court. Did you pay by check or money order so you have proof of the purchase price?


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## Tessa's Dad

Purple Poodle said:


> Not to go off in another direction but thats kind of a cop out if you ask me. The real reason they won't go natural is because the ears will rose and the tails will curl up over the back  thus looking nothing like a Dobie.
> 
> Anyway there are a lot of "breeder" out there who will do and say anything to try and doop people into buying a puppy.





PonkiPoodles said:


> Actually, if bred correctly the ears should fall the same than a beagle's, and this information do not come from breeders but from shelters and doberman rescues.
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6nHZT6hAyoc/R158HSSQCPI/AAAAAAAAAAs/3vM9PcBcRHc/s320/Doberman+Pinscher.jpg
> 
> If they want to ban anything it should be circumcision.


They circumcise Doberman's?? :shocked: :eek2:  :excruciating: :kev:


I did not know that. 


















(Yes, I'm still catching up on old threads.)


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## CT Girl

cbrand said:


> Ugh.... So basically they are saying that they don't breed to the Standard?
> 
> 
> 
> Yah, I'm sure that Kim Bates LOVES the fact that their kennel name is so close to hers.
> 
> These folks are on my personal poop list. They sold two puppies at once to a woman here in Boulder. She called me because the dogs were out of control and at 6+ months, she could not get them trained or house broken. She was at her wits end and her husband was pitching a fit. I tried to help her but the truth is that two at once were just too much for her. (This is why breeders should not sell two puppies at the same time!!!!!!)
> 
> I recommended that she return one of the dogs or give it up to rescue. In the end, she didn't want to because she had paid close to $3000 per puppy when you figure in travel costs.


Someone not able to train or housebreak at 6 months I would not blame the breeder for. There are plenty of rescues that are poorly bred that can be successfully housebroken. I have also seen beautiful breed standard puppies whose owners are hopeless in potty training. Two puppies are a handful but it is not impossible. What would concern me is having a ton of people in the house with shoes on in a danger period to the puppy, pricing for color, and no health testing. In regards to the sofa - yuck!


----------



## NOLA Standards

Pretty certain they are NOT members of ARPC (Apricot Red Poodle Club).

Membership, while not exactly closed, does require sponsorship of 2 current members. 

AND

Participation with the color in AKC events. (from the bylaws, "and accepts the AKC Standard as the only standard by which they shall be judged".)

There are a few members that are on the fringe - so to speak - breeding multiple litters or controversial colors - but anyone not breeding to the breed standard and openly promoting it would get themselves banned/excommunicated/asked to leave the premise.

And they should be... Good Grief! The things people do and say and then puppy buyers line up with cash in hand, claiming they have done their homework. I'm heading for a tangent... stopping myself!: banghead:

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


----------



## Tessa's Dad

cbrand said:


> Yah, I'm sure that Kim Bates LOVES the fact that their kennel name is so close to hers.


Not much anyone can do about it. It is the breeders actual last name in the case of the one this thread is about.



*heather* said:


> What's ironic to me as well, is that *the TV show "Animal Planet" was there to film a documentary a few months ago*... so the general public is being told these are good people to get a puppy from (with NO Health testing!)
> *Their Red Standards are priced at $2600*. This is a pet quality puppy!
> Nuts if you ask me :crazy:





thestars said:


> You must be talking about* Pendragon Poodles* in regards to price.





ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> ...When I heard *Animal Planet was featuring them on Breeder of the Pack,* I contacted the station to tell them that I and a few other breeders I know would boycott their channel. They did get back to me saying they were doing this because one of their staff bought from this breeder and "were just tickled with the annual puppy party" so would go ahead as planned. Well, in my mind, the people buying their pups are paying for the party, because *they are charging over $1,000 more than the average red breeder here for their pups, *





Peter said:


> I bought my poodle from pendragon poodle. The lady name Heather sold me the puppy. The puppy was 20 weeks old. She charged me $2000 for that poodle.





cbrand said:


> I recommended that she return one of the dogs or give it up to rescue. In the end, she didn't want to *because she had paid close to $3000 per puppy* when you figure in travel costs.


You know, reading this and what I've seen on the internet about them, this is ALL about MONEY !! Plain and simple. 



ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Thanks for bringing this up Heather.* They sit quietly flying under the radar, *except for the odd thing like the AP show, and _it infuriates me personally that with all of this going on, they would be the one breeder of Standard Poodles who gets featured on such a show._ GRRRRRRR!!


Don't growl about it, Cheri. Consider yourself lucky. Someone gets featured like that on Animal Planet, with all the dogs they are selling clearly presented in living color, don't think for a minute that this does not raise eyebrows at the IRS. (Or, I believe it's the CRA in Canada.)

I sure hope their bookkeeping and accounting is all dead on because something like this just invites an audit.  

I'm pretty sure a lot of breeders like this work on a cash only basis (bounced checks are far too common) so there may not be a lot of income receipts. But the revenuers dig deep like a dog looking for a buried bone. New cars. Nice house paid for. College fees paid up. Expensive vacations. But, nothing in the bank accounts to show where the money came from for the cars, house, tuition, etc. They can make it all add up to tax evasion, and make someone's life a living hell.

None of us would want that. 

Just remember, what goes around comes around. 



ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> This is just my opinion, but having _watched the Breeder of the Pack_ episode *before I boycotted the channel... *










 LMBO!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Tessa's Dad said:


> Not much anyone can do about it. It is the breeders actual last name in the case of the one this thread is about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, reading this and what I've seen on the internet about them, this is ALL about MONEY !! Plain and simple.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't growl about it, Cheri. Consider yourself lucky. Someone gets featured like that on Animal Planet, with all the dogs they are selling clearly presented in living color, don't think for a minute that this does not raise eyebrows at the IRS. (Or, I believe it's the CRA in Canada.)
> 
> I sure hope their bookkeeping and accounting is all dead on because something like this just invites an audit.
> 
> I'm pretty sure a lot of breeders like this work on a cash only basis (bounced checks are far too common) so there may not be a lot of income receipts. But the revenuers dig deep like a dog looking for a buried bone. New cars. Nice house paid for. College fees paid up. Expensive vacations. But, nothing in the bank accounts to show where the money came from for the cars, house, tuition, etc. They can make it all add up to tax evasion, and make someone's life a living hell.
> 
> None of us would want that.
> 
> Just remember, what goes around comes around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LMBO!


LMBO too! I did not realize how goofy that sounded, but hey, curiosity killed the cat! I HAD to see what it was all about!!!

BTW...they changed their name to Pendragon...


----------



## Tessa's Dad

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> LMBO too! I did not realize how goofy that sounded, but hey, curiosity killed the cat! I HAD to see what it was all about!!!
> 
> *BTW...they changed their name to Pendragon...*


Any idea how long ago they did that?

The registration on their domain indicates they've had it since at least March, 2002. 

NOTE: The following is public information available to anyone by going to:







Whois Lookup | Domain Availability - Registration Information

If a staff member wants to delete it, I have no problem with it.

Registrant:
Pendragon Poodles
RR#3
Tweed, Ontario 3J0
Zimbabwe

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (







Domain Names, Web Hosting and SSL Certificates - Go Daddy)
Domain Name: PENDRAGONPOODLES.COM
*Created on: 11-Mar-02*
Expires on: 30-Nov-11
Last Updated on: 25-Feb-11

Administrative Contact:
Pendragon, Heather  [email protected]
Pendragon Poodles RR#3 Tweed,ON 3J0 

Technical Contact:
Stranaghan, Dale  [email protected]
Dale Stranaghan 1501-438 Seymour Street Vancouver,BC,CA V6B 6H4 

-------------------------------------------------------

For what it's worth, you are not allowed to put false information in a Domain Registration. It's a strict legal requirement by ICANN. (Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers)

Soooo...... the "Zimbabwe", partial zip code and inaccurate email address for Heather Pendragon should probably be reported...

Unless Canada recently became part of Zimbabwe and didn't tell us. :becky:


----------



## Tessa's Dad

I just noticed, on Twitter, she goes by the name "Heddy" Pendragon.

Twitter

That is so cool! Heddy is my favorite!


----------



## Tessa's Dad

*Interesting related news items*

*Indo-Canadian veterinarians seeking inquiry*
Sunny Freeman, Vancouver Sun
Published: Wednesday, August 22, 2007

Three Indo-Canadian veterinarians filed a petition to the B.C. Supreme Court Friday asking it to order a* B.C. Veterinary Medical Association* inquiry into discriminatory remarks made by Dr. Robert Ashburner after the BCVMA deemed it was outside its jurisdiction to pursue an inquiry in June.

Hakam Bhullar, Arminder Singh Brar and Teij Paul Bhatia petitioned the BCVMA in June 2006 to launch an inquiry into unprofessional conduct by Dr. Ashburner. They allege that while treating a client's cat, _*Dr. Ashburner made racial and defamatory statements against Indo-Canadian vets.*_

Registrar of the BCVMA Valerie Osborne advised the petitioners in June 2007 that an inquiry into the comments made by Dr. Ashburner was denied because the council did not have legal jurisdiction to cause the inquiry, according to court documents obtained by the *Vancouver Sun.*

In a new petition filed to the B.C. Supreme Court August 17th, the vets allege Dr. Robert Ashburner, who is also the chair of the conduct review committee for the B.C. Veterinary Medical Association, made slanderous comments about low-cost clinics run predominantly by Indo-Canadian veterinarians.

"They are innocent until proven guilty. And what can you do? You have to let the system do it," Ashburner is quoted as saying in the petition.
"Gone are the days when we could go there with a torch and burn it down, a quicker way."

_Ashburner's comments were allegedly recorded in September 2005 *by Heather Pendragon,* _who filed an affidavit stating _*she took a hidden camera into Ashburner's office to get treatment for her cat*_.

While there, Pendragon complained about the care her cat received at a low-cost clinic run by Dr. Hakam Bhullar, one of the plaintiffs in the suit, which led to Ashburner's comments about the clinics.

"There were days I was embarrassed to admit that I was part of the Caucasian culture," Pendragon said in her affidavit. "I adore Dr. Bhullar for having the tenacity to stand tall and fight for what he and the rest of us who support him know is right."

The dispute between some Indo-Canadian vets and the association first erupted in 2005 when the vets claimed the association's insistence on new members passing an English proficiency test is a way to prevent India-trained vets from opening a practice in B.C.
They claim it is an attempt to stop any more *"low-cost" vets* from opening shop in the Lower Mainland and taking customers away from colleagues who charge higher fees. 


CBC.ca - Marketplace - Links to more information

According to the Globe and Mail (Jan 8, 2007) "Canadians spend over $4 BILLION each year on their pets. More than half goes to the bare necessities: food and trips to the vet." I think a fantastic idea for a follow up to this weeks show (a remarkable "eye-opener" which you so professionally provided the general UNAWARE public) would be to also* investigate the cost of veterinary SURGERY!* I appreciated the info on medications and prescription options, but I have to tell you...that as a Standard Poodle breeder now living in Ontario *I have personally FLOWN with my own adult Poodles back to BC for veterinary care on more than one occasion.* I have paid for the return flight from Toronto to Vancouver, the pre-surgery tests, lab work such as the blood work, pathology and biopsy, x-rays, AND the surgery* for LESS money than I have been quoted by veterinarians here. *Ridiculous? I'd say so! I have seen some vets' prices in BOTH BC and Ontario for simple surgeries such as spay/neuter as high as $500! *At Dr. Bhullar's Atlas Animal Hospital in Vancouver* just moments ago I was quoted (via anonymous phone call) *$70 for a dog neuter and $85 for a spay.* How IS that price difference even possible? Sure would like you to be able to ask the BCVMA about THAT! Maybe it's time to consider putting a stop to the "cartel" that this "Old Boys Club" has run for years and finally make them accountable! Maybe what they need to hear is as a collective public... "We're mad as HELL and we're not going to take it any more!!!" *Posted by: Heather Pendragon* | Nov 28, 07 10:55 PM


Draw your own conclusions.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the vet fees themselves, $500 to spay/neuter in Ontario vs. $70-$85 in British Columbia is a lot.

I assume it's the same here. At least in New York. When buying a dog to start with, you can buy registered purebred standard poodles for well under $500 in upstate NY. The average upstate price is $750. Some a lot lower and some a bit more. (The low price ones are probably a family letting their dog have one litter.) 

But drive down towards New York City and you are looking at $1200 to $1500. Vet fees are the same. Country vets are cheaper than city vets. One big reason will be that their expenses and cost of living are less in the country than in the big city.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Tessa's Dad said:


> *Indo-Canadian veterinarians seeking inquiry*
> Sunny Freeman, Vancouver Sun
> Published: Wednesday, August 22, 2007
> 
> Three Indo-Canadian veterinarians filed a petition to the B.C. Supreme Court Friday asking it to order a* B.C. Veterinary Medical Association* inquiry into discriminatory remarks made by Dr. Robert Ashburner after the BCVMA deemed it was outside its jurisdiction to pursue an inquiry in June.
> 
> Hakam Bhullar, Arminder Singh Brar and Teij Paul Bhatia petitioned the BCVMA in June 2006 to launch an inquiry into unprofessional conduct by Dr. Ashburner. They allege that while treating a client's cat, _*Dr. Ashburner made racial and defamatory statements against Indo-Canadian vets.*_
> 
> Registrar of the BCVMA Valerie Osborne advised the petitioners in June 2007 that an inquiry into the comments made by Dr. Ashburner was denied because the council did not have legal jurisdiction to cause the inquiry, according to court documents obtained by the *Vancouver Sun.*
> 
> In a new petition filed to the B.C. Supreme Court August 17th, the vets allege Dr. Robert Ashburner, who is also the chair of the conduct review committee for the B.C. Veterinary Medical Association, made slanderous comments about low-cost clinics run predominantly by Indo-Canadian veterinarians.
> 
> "They are innocent until proven guilty. And what can you do? You have to let the system do it," Ashburner is quoted as saying in the petition.
> "Gone are the days when we could go there with a torch and burn it down, a quicker way."
> 
> _Ashburner's comments were allegedly recorded in September 2005 *by Heather Pendragon,* _who filed an affidavit stating _*she took a hidden camera into Ashburner's office to get treatment for her cat*_.
> 
> While there, Pendragon complained about the care her cat received at a low-cost clinic run by Dr. Hakam Bhullar, one of the plaintiffs in the suit, which led to Ashburner's comments about the clinics.
> 
> "There were days I was embarrassed to admit that I was part of the Caucasian culture," Pendragon said in her affidavit. "I adore Dr. Bhullar for having the tenacity to stand tall and fight for what he and the rest of us who support him know is right."
> 
> The dispute between some Indo-Canadian vets and the association first erupted in 2005 when the vets claimed the association's insistence on new members passing an English proficiency test is a way to prevent India-trained vets from opening a practice in B.C.
> They claim it is an attempt to stop any more *"low-cost" vets* from opening shop in the Lower Mainland and taking customers away from colleagues who charge higher fees.
> 
> 
> CBC.ca - Marketplace - Links to more information
> 
> According to the Globe and Mail (Jan 8, 2007) "Canadians spend over $4 BILLION each year on their pets. More than half goes to the bare necessities: food and trips to the vet." I think a fantastic idea for a follow up to this weeks show (a remarkable "eye-opener" which you so professionally provided the general UNAWARE public) would be to also* investigate the cost of veterinary SURGERY!* I appreciated the info on medications and prescription options, but I have to tell you...that as a Standard Poodle breeder now living in Ontario *I have personally FLOWN with my own adult Poodles back to BC for veterinary care on more than one occasion.* I have paid for the return flight from Toronto to Vancouver, the pre-surgery tests, lab work such as the blood work, pathology and biopsy, x-rays, AND the surgery* for LESS money than I have been quoted by veterinarians here. *Ridiculous? I'd say so! I have seen some vets' prices in BOTH BC and Ontario for simple surgeries such as spay/neuter as high as $500! *At Dr. Bhullar's Atlas Animal Hospital in Vancouver* just moments ago I was quoted (via anonymous phone call) *$70 for a dog neuter and $85 for a spay.* How IS that price difference even possible? Sure would like you to be able to ask the BCVMA about THAT! Maybe it's time to consider putting a stop to the "cartel" that this "Old Boys Club" has run for years and finally make them accountable! Maybe what they need to hear is as a collective public... "We're mad as HELL and we're not going to take it any more!!!" *Posted by: Heather Pendragon* | Nov 28, 07 10:55 PM
> 
> 
> Draw your own conclusions.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Regarding the vet fees themselves, $500 to spay/neuter in Ontario vs. $70-$85 in British Columbia is a lot.
> 
> I assume it's the same here. At least in New York. When buying a dog to start with, you can buy registered purebred standard poodles for well under $500 in upstate NY. The average upstate price is $750. Some a lot lower and some a bit more. (The low price ones are probably a family letting their dog have one litter.)
> 
> But drive down towards New York City and you are looking at $1200 to $1500. Vet fees are the same. Country vets are cheaper than city vets. One big reason will be that their expenses and cost of living are less in the country than in the big city.


They changed their name a LONG time ago. They used to have a story about it on their now defunct web site. Do they have a new site now? They sold off a ton of stuff on Kijiji (furnishings, dog beds, dog crates, collectibles, grooming equipment) and it appeared they were going out of business.

We live in the boonies, and a simple spay n a Whippet is $175. On a medium sized Standard about $210. You have to shop round even here, because one vet in the town we shop in charges close to $600 for a spay on a medium sized Standard.


----------



## Tessa's Dad

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> They changed their name a LONG time ago. They used to have a story about it on their now defunct web site. Do they have a new site now? They sold off a ton of stuff on Kijiji (furnishings, dog beds, dog crates, collectibles, grooming equipment) and it appeared they were going out of business.
> 
> We live in the boonies, and a simple spay n a Whippet is $175. On a medium sized Standard about $210. You have to shop round even here, because one vet in the town we shop in charges close to $600 for a spay on a medium sized Standard.


It appears she moved from British Columbia to Ontario at some point in the past. (The "back to BC" comment in the news article) That may be when all the stuff was sold off. I assume it would be cheaper to buy new than ship it across the country.

Their web site is at the address in the registration information above. 

I assume there is no control or regulation over what vets can charge in Canada? You'd think people would search out the more reasonably priced ones and the the high priced ones would have to compete or starve. 



Then again, I can't imagine someone paying $2,600 for a poodle puppy.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

No, the clearance sales on Kijiji were just recently. When I click on the link you provided, nothing comes up...nothing at all....just a blank page.


----------



## 3dogs

only regarding the "vet" stuff. There can be a huge difference in vet fee's. I go to low cost Spay/Neuter clinics because it is cheaper. My vet quoted my cat $200.00 for a Neuter & the Spay/Neuter clinic $45. Which one do you think I went too???? Yup, I went to the Spay/Neuter clinic- this is all they do, every week. Dogs go by weight- my 55lb mixed breed females $105.00 at the low cost, I don't even want to know what my vet charges. I do know that they charge $20.00 MORE for Comfortis so I tell them to write me a perscription or price match- they price match. You might say well $20 isn't much but when you have 6 dogs that is a SAVINGS of $120.00 on a 6 month supply which for me personally is a big deal. My vaccines I give myself. Rabies I go to clinics from FREE-$9.00 & no office visit, $20.00 + office charge. I go to Heartworm clinics as well $17 for the "vet exam" & $14 for the HW test. That total is less than the walk in the door office charge. So, YES I go with Low cost vs. my Vet & yes there is a large amount of $$$ saved.


----------



## Countryboy

Vets and Dentists. If I see too many 'assistants' hanging around the office I'm off to a clinic that doesn't have so much overhead.


----------



## Tessa's Dad

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> No, the clearance sales on Kijiji were just recently. When I click on the link you provided, nothing comes up...nothing at all....just a blank page.


It was bringing up a site a few days ago. Now, I'm only getting a blank as well.

Could be a number of reasons. (Technical problems and issues.)


----------



## Tessa's Dad

Countryboy said:


> Vets and Dentists. If I see too many 'assistants' hanging around the office I'm off to a clinic that doesn't have so much overhead.


Most dental colleges offer free clinics, Frank. 

:wink:


----------



## outwest

Well....none of you live in SoCal. It is around $300 to spay a standard at a regular vets office. You can go to a spay clinic and they will do it without fluids or antibiotics for cheaper. There is a vet school near me and they will do it cheaper if you allow a student to do it. To buy a dog is $1500 minimum and up to 3K, the average being around $2000. I have been thinking about buying a fullsized standard black male puppy after my current puppy is a year and a half or so. I figure it would be cheaper to buy a puppy and have it flown to me from out of state or even out of the country than buying one here!


----------



## Tessa's Dad

outwest said:


> Well....none of you live in SoCal. It is around $300 to spay a standard at a regular vets office. You can go to a spay clinic and they will do it without fluids or antibiotics for cheaper. There is a vet school near me and they will do it cheaper if you allow a student to do it. To buy a dog is $1500 minimum and up to 3K, the average being around $2000. I have been thinking about buying a fullsized standard black male puppy after my current puppy is a year and a half or so. I figure it would be cheaper to buy a puppy and have it flown to me from out of state or even out of the country than buying one here!


If you've travelled around the country, you'll find that a lot of things vary a lot in price, depending on where you are. My observation is that many times it's controlled by the standard of living and average income in the area. Many years ago I was driving home from Texas. Gas prices in Texas then were around $1.15 a gallon. (Yeah, a LOT of years ago.)


Houston TX: $1.15
Laplace LA: 98 cents
Biloxi MS: 85 cents
Evergreen AL: 95 cents
Lagrange GA: $1.00
Charlotte NC: $1.05
Williamsburg, VA: $1.10
Allentown PA: $1.18
Cooperstown, NY: $1.25
Personal observation was that the average homes and general feel of the areas pretty much tracked the gas prices. (I don't think the high price in NY reflects high wages or big homes. I think there's extra taxes in the price.)

I'm pretty sure the price of dogs follows the same patterns. And big cities will be more expensive than rural areas. 

(The scary part is that I actually remember these prices and that was over 30 years ago. :scared: )


----------



## Rowan

This is just my personal preference and my experience, so YMMV.

I recently adopted a retired stud dog, and of course not being a breeder, needed to get him neutered. I contacted my vet for a quote and then I also contacted some of the "low cost clinics" for prices. I learned one thing: You get what you pay for. Sure, the low cost clinics and certificates are less expensive, but you don't get the extras that usually accompany a surgical procedure. You basically get your dog "knocked out" and the offending appendages removed. 

I wanted more peace of mind for my little guy, as I have with all my prior rescues and breeder purchased poodles. They're family after all. 

Here's my stance: I wouldn't go under without an IV, fluids, EKG, an anesthesiologist, pain meds, antibiotics and someone monitoring my every physiological function. I wouldn't put my dog under without the same benefits and safety precautions. So I went with my higher priced vet for the procedure (which was a good choice considering he also needed a number of teeth extracted). 

I'm not degrading anyone who chooses to go with a lower cost alternative. That's the beauty of it-----choice. For me, paying a bit more for peace of mind was well worth it. 

(And yes, I do live in a high cost area.) Dogs are expensive here but $2600?? No way, no how.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Rowan said:


> This is just my personal preference and my experience, so YMMV.
> 
> I recently adopted a retired stud dog, and of course not being a breeder, needed to get him neutered. I contacted my vet for a quote and then I also contacted some of the "low cost clinics" for prices. I learned one thing: You get what you pay for. Sure, the low cost clinics and certificates are less expensive, but you don't get the extras that usually accompany a surgical procedure. You basically get your dog "knocked out" and the offending appendages removed.
> 
> I wanted more peace of mind for my little guy, as I have with all my prior rescues and breeder purchased poodles. They're family after all.
> 
> Here's my stance: I wouldn't go under without an IV, fluids, EKG, an anesthesiologist, pain meds, antibiotics and someone monitoring my every physiological function. I wouldn't put my dog under without the same benefits and safety precautions. So I went with my higher priced vet for the procedure (which was a good choice considering he also needed a number of teeth extracted).
> 
> I'm not degrading anyone who chooses to go with a lower cost alternative. That's the beauty of it-----choice. For me, paying a bit more for peace of mind was well worth it.
> 
> (And yes, I do live in a high cost area.) Dogs are expensive here but $2600?? No way, no how.


Our country vet did all of the above and the spay they did for us was CHEAP.


----------



## Rowan

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Our country vet did all of the above and the spay they did for us was CHEAP.


You're very fortunate!


----------



## Tessa's Dad

Rowan said:


> I wanted more peace of mind for my little guy, as I have with all my prior rescues and breeder purchased poodles. They're family after all.


I know where you're coming from, Rowan. Especially the part about family.

But whatever you do, don't go looking to see how we do it with bulls. 

You'll never eat another hamburger.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

tessa's dad said:


> i know where you're coming from, rowan. Especially the part about family.
> 
> But whatever you do, don't go looking to see how we do it with bulls.
> 
> You'll never eat another hamburger.


squish???


----------



## Rowan

Tessa's Dad said:


> I know where you're coming from, Rowan. Especially the part about family.
> 
> But whatever you do, don't go looking to see how we do it with bulls.
> 
> You'll never eat another hamburger.


I'm a pescatarian! LOL So I'm safe on that front.


----------



## Fond of Poodles

"pescatarian" - I had to google that, new word of the day,


----------



## Rayah-QualitySPs

NOLA Standards said:


> Pretty certain they are NOT members of ARPC (Apricot Red Poodle Club).
> 
> Membership, while not exactly closed, does require sponsorship of 2 current members.
> 
> AND
> 
> Participation with the color in AKC events. (from the bylaws, "and accepts the AKC Standard as the only standard by which they shall be judged".)
> 
> There are a few members that are on the fringe - so to speak - breeding multiple litters or controversial colors - but anyone not breeding to the breed standard and openly promoting it would get themselves banned/excommunicated/asked to leave the premise.
> 
> And they should be... Good Grief! The things people do and say and then puppy buyers line up with cash in hand, claiming they have done their homework. I'm heading for a tangent... stopping myself!: banghead:
> 
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards



Dear Nola;

I would love to know where you get your information about the Apricot and Red Poodle Club and their ethics? Have you been a member for a long time?

With just a quick glimpse of the Apricot and Red Poodle Club website I see *two* Canadian breeders that breed and advertise *parti-coloured* poodles. Right now one of them only has pictures of parti-coloured puppies for sale/ advertised on their webpage.

As for number of litters per year or multiple litters again one of the above websites breeds *many* litters per year. They are not all advertised on the website but the Canadian Kennel Club Stud books lists all litters registered and the number of litters per year by one of these breeders is astounding.


----------



## Tessa's Dad

Fond of Poodles said:


> "pescatarian" - I had to google that, new word of the day,


I don't know. 

It sounds kind of fishy to me.


----------



## Tessa's Dad

NOLA Standards said:


> Pretty certain they are NOT members of ARPC (Apricot Red Poodle Club).
> 
> Membership, while not exactly closed, does require sponsorship of 2 current members.
> 
> AND
> 
> Participation with the color in AKC events. (from the bylaws, "and accepts the AKC Standard as the only standard by which they shall be judged".)
> 
> There are a few members that are on the fringe - so to speak - breeding multiple litters or controversial colors - but anyone not breeding to the breed standard and openly promoting it would get themselves banned/excommunicated/asked to leave the premise.
> 
> And they should be... Good Grief! The things people do and say and then puppy buyers line up with cash in hand, claiming they have done their homework. I'm heading for a tangent... stopping myself!: banghead:
> 
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards


Hi Tabatha:

Thanks for posting this. I checked out the web site for the Apricot Red Poodle Club. It's quite nice.

I'm very impressed with the dogs under the "Standard Brags" tab.

*Hunters*:


HR Southern Standards Red Creole JH WCX: half way to Senior Hunter title
UH HRCH Webster's Red High Heels SH: earned Senior Hunter title
UH HRCH Southern Standards Red Creole MH: earned Master Hunder title *(First Red to win this title)*
Nice photos. That'll shut up the guys making fun of me walking a SPOO.

*Then two firsts out of Bijou:*


UKC CH Bijou's Majestic Red Ruby of LS, CA, UROII
Ruby is the_* first Red Standard Poodle to earn a UKC Coursing Title!*_
(And I see Ruby is a Leatherstocking dog, from Leatherstocking's Coppercooper, and Leatherstocking's Firefly.)
UKC CH Bijou's Red Razzberry of Majestic, CA
Razz is the *first Red Standard Poodle Male to earn a UKC Coursing Title!*
*And personal congratulations to you for*:


Antoinette Bordeaux du NOLA's Caniche Rouge:
ARPC Match 2010 Best Adult in Match and Best of Variety
PCA 2010 Amateur Owner Handler Bitch Class 3rd Place
Baroness Pontalba du NOLA's Caniche Rouge:
- B won her first AKC point the week she turned 7 months old, handled* by her Amateur Owner Handler, Tabatha Waters*.
- B's win *makes her the youngest red standard poodle puppy bitch to point in the AKC*.

*VERY NICE! *


















I'm not really a "dog show" person but hunters and coursing are different. And I like reds.


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## Countryboy

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> With just a quick glimpse of the Apricot and Red Poodle Club website I see *two* Canadian breeders that breed and advertise *parti-coloured* poodles. Right now one of them only has pictures of parti-coloured puppies for sale/ advertised on their webpage.
> 
> As for number of litters per year or multiple litters again one of the above websites breeds *many* litters per year. They are not all advertised on the website but the Canadian Kennel Club Stud books lists all litters registered and the number of litters per year by one of these breeders is astounding.


Thanx for that! I learned a bit abt the ARPC. I've never been to that site before. The CKC site was great too. I found a link there to their CGN tests schedule! And, thanx to u, it was all an easy copy/paste! 

Maybe all of u know a lot about the Toronto area, and maybe some of u don't. So I just wanted to let everybody know some facts abt the market here.

From Hamilton to Oshawa . . the 'Golden Horseshoe' area . . there's a population of approximately 6 to 7 million people. Highway #401, which passes thru Toronto, and within minutes of both Canadian breeders on the ARPC site, is the busiest traffic corridor on the North American continent. 

In this Golden Horseshoe area, which includes Toronto, all of these people would be within an hour's drive of either of these breeders. And as u can see from both their sites, their market also spreads worldwide.


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## thestars

Tessa's Dad said:


> Thanks for posting this. I checked out the web site for the Apricot Red Poodle Club. It's quite nice.


Check back the ARPC website later this year, I am re-designing the site and adding alot more about the "Total Dog"; We'll be posting pictures of reds and apricots that do therapy, dock jumping, rally, obedience, cart pulling and just about any job a poodle can do! They are not just a bunch of pretty faces!


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## NOLA Standards

Rayah,

My information about the Apricot Red Poodle Club comes from being a member for 3 years. 

Like the other clubs of which I am also a member, I have a very active role in the club - though with the ARPC - I won't pretend I don't wish we were more active in all things colored!

MANY ARPC members were there long before me, some are charter members and others are members in name only - staying a member by paying yearly dues and never having a violation or complaint - the ARPC code of ethics and guidelines is posted on our website and follows PCA's guidelines.

Membership in the ARPC is not a stamp of approval on a breeding program. And it should never be taken as such. 

You are not the only person to question the membership of a couple of breeders. A discrete inquiry was tactfully made by private message - about one of the breeders you are referring to...

In a perfect world I would be ruler...oh wait! ha Did I say that outloud? 
Let me rephrase...In a perfect world, all would be perfect. But this isn't and there isn't and (I'm not ruler) we do the best we can.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards

PS Terry (Farley's D) is a charter member of the ARPC and a long time board member. You might message him personally if you have questions or *FIRST HAND* knowledge of members causing concerns.


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## Katzka

Someone from England correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is now out-lawed in England unless you can show proof that this will be a working dog. [/QUOTE]

Correct over here all dogs have to be left with their tails now unless they are working dogs, my two both have full tails and I love them.


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## ekbaby734

:lol: they were born on our leather couch!?! What????? Odd :questionmark:​


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## zyrcona

The website doesn’t appear to work, but I did find a blog. One of the posts on it is an _ad hominem_ attack on an entire group of people — namely people involved in dog showing — and actually denigrates the poodle breed as being unfit for purpose. They also suggest that their dog is fit to be bred because it is large and chases bears.

They seem to conflate the role of a retriever with the role of a hound. They also seem to be using this as justification to breed abnormally large animals, which doesn’t seem to make sense, as most hounds and most retrievers are not particularly large. It said something about the dog having to be large historically because it needed to carry turkeys… turkeys are native to America and don’t exist in the wild in Germany where the breed is thought to originate from, and in historical paintings poodles are usually depicted as being somewhere between the sizes of a miniature and standard.

If someone is breeding outside the breed standard, I would expect to see a proper explanation of why they were doing this and what their goals were. I would at least expect some sort of impression of what the standard they were breeding towards was. If someone was breeding an unrecognised colour, I would expect to see how they intended to improve this colour by mating to good quality correct-coloured dogs. I would always expect to see breed-appropriate health testing. If these people were trying to breed poodles to be hounds or retrievers, I would expect to see animals being used that had obtained distinctions in these fields.

If someone is a breeder, I don’t expect them to necessarily be involved in showing or to like the ‘sideshow’ clips, and I do not think it is unreasonable that they may have goals that don't always align exactly with the breed standard, but I expect them to encourage the improvement of the breed. If a potential buyer wanted to buy a puppy to show, I would expect that to be permitted provided the buyer was a suitable and genuine person. Whilst kennel clubs have their faults, I certainly wouldn’t expect to see a tirade against the breed and competitive showing.

If the breed is for ‘sissies’ and the breed standard is a steaming pile of crap like they suggest, why are they even bothering to register their dogs? Why don’t they find a breed they like that coincides better with their ‘breeding goals’?


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## Countryboy

zyrcona said:


> The website doesn’t appear to work


Pendragon Poodles 'closed up shop' abt a year ago.


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## zyrcona

Countryboy said:


> Pendragon Poodles 'closed up shop' abt a year ago.



Good!


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## phrannie

Bella's Momma said:


> I have to say when it said puppies are touched every 15 minute I envisioned them being turned a little like eggs. LOL.


*That made me laugh right out loud!!! hahahahahahahaha

p*


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## DaveTN

The endorsement of early neutering by certain veterinary professionals could be countered by as many who oppose the practice. In fact I just read several warning against the procedure. A certain group of Vet's believing in a practice is not enough for me to follow simply because he or she has the degree. I learned that painful lesson after the death of my 13 yr. old Chihuahua who received a 3 yr. Rabies vac, (at the suggestion of the Vet)had a reaction and was dead within 30 days. The Vet I have now told me it was highly unlikely she needed it at all and would have suggested a test to determine that before administering a 3 yr. vac to a small dog of that age. 
I'll always need more information than an endorsement by a Veterinary Association from now on.


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## petitpie

DaveTn: 

I'm so sorry to hear of your poor little baby and bad vet experience. I left my vet because his office continued to send yearly shot reminders for our spoos and 13-year old tpoo. My husband and I were just lucky that we did our research before hand.

Best of health for yourself and Simon!


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## flyingpoodle

cbrand said:


> <snip>
> 
> These folks are on my personal poop list. They sold two puppies at once to a woman here in Boulder. She called me because the dogs were out of control and at 6+ months, she could not get them trained or house broken. She was at her wits end and her husband was pitching a fit. I tried to help her but the truth is that two at once were just too much for her. (This is why breeders should not sell two puppies at the same time!!!!!!)
> 
> I recommended that she return one of the dogs or give it up to rescue. In the end, she didn't want to because she had paid close to $3000 per puppy when you figure in travel costs.


-What do you all think about 2 puppies at once? I've been thinking about it for the next round, but am I nuts? I've only had one dog, an abused rescue poodle, so I'm used to spending lots of time on behavioral issues and think I have realistic expectations for time commitment. No kids, and partner works part-time from home. Is it harder to go through puppyhood twice if you stagger them?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I would never sell anyone two puppies at the same time. I think one, then the second 18-24 months later is ideal. The first puppy will make your experience bringing the second puppy into the fold much easier. When you bring in two at the same tend, there is a risk they will bond with one another and not you, and anarchy can reign.


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## thestars

flyingpoodle said:


> -What do you all think about 2 puppies at once? I've been thinking about it for the next round, but am I nuts? I've only had one dog, an abused rescue poodle, so I'm used to spending lots of time on behavioral issues and think I have realistic expectations for time commitment. No kids, and partner works part-time from home. Is it harder to go through puppyhood twice if you stagger them?


I don't sell two puppies at the same time, my puppy people come back for another. However I have bought two puppies at the same time but from litters a month apart and all training except potty training was done separately. My husband had responsibility for the boy and I the girl, when we took them out potty we both went to train them. Although the boy was a breeze to train as he would play with the hanging leashes when he needed to go outside. Now he paces at the door. The Girl was very used to going out with the others and was a very fast potty break dog.


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