# Showing puppies with holes in their mouth



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I think they get dentures...


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> I think they get dentures...


Too funny, plumcrazy!!!
By the time most puppies are six months old and can be shown, they have finished teething and have all their adult teeth.
It seems fairly common these days to find poodles with missing teeth, most often the premolars. I know of a pup that got a best puppy in show and she's missing two (permanent) lower canines! It seems some judges will overlook missing teeth which is wrong in my opinion.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Vibrant said:


> I know of a pup that got a best puppy in show and she's missing two (permanent) lower canines! It seems some judges will overlook missing teeth which is wrong in my opinion.


Whoa! Those are some pretty important teeth to be missing! Makes me wonder if they weren't pulled because of a base narrow situation? 

Full dentition is not mentioned in the AKC/PCA breed standard. Is it in the CKC/PCC? I believe missing teeth are a fault in the FCI standard. 

As I understand it, judges count teeth when the standard tells them to. It has become a big issue in some breeds (Dobes or Rotties come to mind), and they have included explicit reference to full dentition in the breed standard.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Oh I'm just talking about teething puppy teeth, not necessarily teeth that were pulled or just didn't grow in.


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Oh I'm just talking about teething puppy teeth, not necessarily teeth that were pulled or just didn't grow in.


Sorry, I went off on a tangent!
I think you'll find most pups in the show ring have finished teething, because they can't show until they're six months old anyway.

Sorry again...I said canines and meant to say incisors. It would be pretty hard to mask missing canines!:doh:

I know UKC calls for a full set of teeth, and some judges will look very carefully and count teeth. I'm not sure about CKC, but I do think that a full set of teeth should be a basic requirement.
PCC lists missing teeth as a major fault.


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## puppylove (Aug 9, 2009)

This is where I really don't understand the whole champion dog mentality. If AKC shows are meant to find the best breeding dogs, then missing teeth really shouldn't matter. In some breeds (Australian shepherds come to mind) chipped or missing teeth are considered a result of their working environment and are not a fault. Obviously if the missing teeth are a genetic problem then they should be major fault, but usually they are not. It's like the tail not being cut to the proper length...that would have no affect whatsoever on that dog's progeny. So what difference does it make? Maybe that dog would throw more potential champions than the coddled winning dog does. 

It seems to me that better dogs would be the result of judging them based on what really gets passed on genetically. So would a dog with missing teeth or incorrect tail length - or even a bad haircut - ever trump a dog without those faults but that has less desirable physical traits (like maybe a less than perfect tailset or bite or gait)?


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Vibrant said:


> Sorry again...I said canines and meant to say incisors. It would be pretty hard to mask missing canines!:doh:
> 
> I know UKC calls for a full set of teeth, and some judges will look very carefully and count teeth. I'm not sure about CKC, but I do think that a full set of teeth should be a basic requirement.
> PCC lists missing teeth as a major fault.


I thought maybe you meant incisors! 

I believe that PCA and PCC dictate the breed standard to be followed in AKC and CKC judging of the breed, respectively. So if it's in the PCC standard, the CKC judge should have taken it into consideration. 

Sorry to hijack your thread, Fluffyspoos! As Vibrant said, all teeth that are going to be in are in by the time the dog as shown. As an aside, my first handling instructor emphasized very gentle handling/exam of the mouth during teething, so the pup doesn't become fearful of having his mouth examined.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

puppylove said:


> This is where I really don't understand the whole champion dog mentality. If AKC shows are meant to find the best breeding dogs, then missing teeth really shouldn't matter.


Puppylove, a lot of times dogs are born with teeth missing, and presumably this has a genetic component. It may have something to do with us humans fooling with the shape/size of the jaw through breeding (e.g., incisors go missing as the jaw get narrower). It is up to the national breed club that writes the standard to decide whether full dentition is important, and include it in the standard.


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

puppylove said:


> Obviously if the missing teeth are a genetic problem then they should be major fault, but usually they are not.


I think we're on the same page, Puppylove, but I do believe that missing teeth in poodles is a genetic problem. It does run in some families of poodles that I know of. In my opinion, teeth are a vital part of a healthy poodle. If we start dismissing missing teeth as a non-issue it will lead to future generations of poodles with fewer and fewer teeth. How sad would it be to see poodle puppies without enough teeth to eat? I'm not trying to be a sensationalist...this is simple evolution.
I agree with you that some faults have less of a consequence on the breed (for instance, a low tailset will not hurt the quality of life of the dog), but I do believe that teeth, and correct bite, are essential for the well-being of the breed and the individuals within it.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Oh it's no problem guys, talk about teeth as much as you want! I just knew one of you knew the answer to my question, I just needed to resay it a little  thanks tons for the answer, Feralpudel! Continue as you all were ^^


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> I think they get dentures...


_
ound: You just made my day!!!_


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

Pupy teeth I think are understnadable. chipped teeth I think should be asked about as thta can hapen when dogs do somehting stupid(my mum had a Bulldog btich that would chew rocks) missing teeth should be a query esp premolars, now if the dog is older and the missing teeth are not usuaully due to possible genetics, then a simple question should clear that up.

Love the Frenchie pic! My mum had let a breeder/handler borrow one of her bitches to do a seminar on judging Bulldogs and while she's commenting on the incisors int he breed (should be 6 sometimes 4 is normal even with 6 not usually perfectly alinged) opens up Steffie's mouth and has a perfect set of teeth staring back at her, she laughed and said served her right for not lookign first!


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

dbl post!


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