# Have you ever been deceived by a breeder?



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Yes I have by 3 different American bobtail breeders !


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## Scoots (Jan 9, 2010)

Before buying our Airedale, we were misled by another Airedale breeder. Luckily, we refused to sign the contract on sight and when we got it home, found lots of issues that she then refused to compromise on. We feel like we had a lucky escape with that one!


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Yep.

The breeder I got Tuesday from, Tytan's Standard Poodles. She was sold as a Tuxedo ($300 more) which she is clearly not and was sold with the guarantee she would be a dark brown which she is definitely not! Tuesday was given to me by a really good friend who bought her from Tytan's. I got Tuesday at 11 months old, about two months later Tytan's fell off the grid.

I was duped when I first started out in rabbits (I was 12) but after paying $40 for a "show quality" Netherland Dwarf and got dumped at every show I went to I wised up. Through out the years of show rabbits I had many, many rabbit breeders try to sell me sub par stock.

Anyway with all of the deception out their I have given up trying to fine a show puppy.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

What about a stud dog owner? If so yes.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cbrand said:


> What about a stud dog owner? If so yes.


Yeah that falls into breeder status.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Purple Poodle said:


> Yep.
> I was duped when I first started out in rabbits (I was 12) but after paying $40 for a "show quality" Netherland Dwarf and got dumped at every show I went to I wised up. Through out the years of show rabbits I had many, many rabbit breeders try to sell me sub par stock.


sounds like what happen to me and my sister ! we where fresh out of HS when we started with the cats ! many breeders deceived us because we where young and naive. 

now since we moved onto the dog thing I get leery with contracts ! I also now talk to a breeder for 1 plus years until I feel I know them enough to trust them. I also research everything now also !


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## *tina* (Jan 3, 2010)

I was misled by a few breeders before I found the one we're going with now. She has proven champs and the only problem with our pup is his un-descended testicle. The others claimed to do health checks, etc but couldn't provide the test results when asked.


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## Mandycasey'smom (Jan 3, 2009)

My deception was that Casey was crate trained ya trained to piss and poop in a crate.
He basically lived in one first 7 weeks


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

The "breeder" from whom Katy bought Meau told us lots of stories but we found out later she was a byb of the worst sort. When Katy found Stephanie, she explained that she had two litters (two different dams, one stud) but that these breeding dogs were also her family's pets and they hunted with them and didn't overbreed, blah, blah, blah. Katy found Meau when she was just 4 weeks old, so she had to wait a few weeks before being able to pick her up (we wanted Meau to be with her mom, Candi, until the puppies were 8 weeks old, but Stephanie sold Candi when the pups were just 6 weeks old - THAT pissed me off!)

During our waiting period, I kept bugging Stephanie for pictures of the babies, but she always had excuses (couldn't find her camera, camera wasn't working, etc.) finally, she sent a couple of teeny, tiny pictures of a few black and cream puppies (I found out later that she "lifted" the pictures from PooPla's website - as well as stealing the picture of what she said was her stud, but it wasn't - it was PooPla's dog!! She actually used that picture on the online classified ad that she placed; advertising him as her stud... She was a piece of work!)

Katy had only just turned 18 when she bought Meau, so she was happy to find such a good "deal" at $350 (Stephanie priced her puppies differently by gender and by color so, Meau being a brown girl, was her most expensive puppy - but still within Katy's budget) The prices for the other puppies started at $250 (black or cream males) to $300 (black or cream females)...

When Meau turned about 12 weeks old, we started noticing ads on the local on-line classifieds that the puppies were now all $100!! (Clearance puppies!!!)  Stephanie didn't care if Katy spayed Meau or not (although if Katy wanted registration papers, Meau's price would've been more) :fish: Luckily we're responsible pet owners and Meau was spayed as soon as she was old enough; I'm sure not all of Meau's siblings were as fortunate since Stephanie was selling $100 spoo puppies with no restrictions on breeding them (although they probably still didn't come with papers - but why would doodle breeders care?!) Grrrrrrr!

As time went on, we found out that Stephanie sold all her "family pets" aka her standard poodles, but was still breeding Great Danes, dachshunds, cats, goats, etc... pretty much everything that had a uterus at her house was having babies. Blah!

Katy's experience with Stephanie is what caused me to do the amount of research I did to find Lucybug - I wasn't going to put myself into the same situation; and I had a little bit more than $350 to spend on a puppy, too. 

My experiences with Lucy's breeder have been 100% positive - I'm SOOOOO glad I did my research. I also have a little more patience than an 18 year old girl who sits in a room with 20 4-week old standard poodle puppies! I was able to wait (almost) patiently for Lucy's mom to be bred, to gestate, deliver, and raise a litter of beautiful babies! I would do it all over again, if/when I'm ever looking for a new baby.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I am regularly lied to about health testes - about which ones were done and what were the results !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:fish:

When I insist over and over I either get results of another dog that starts with same name (oooooooooh yeeeaahhhhh) , or I get the stupidest excuse like :" Oh I just never got to do that- lines are so long for CERF on the show grounds :doh:" etc. 

AND , yes - it was VERY famous line in question !!!!! Same breeder "forgot to mention" that 3 pups were carriers for NE also . although she was asked about that over and over. When I finally asked for a CERF of at least a Stud - I got back answer that it was done in Canada and she can't find the papers and it was followed by a "Newspaper " clip of her being "so and so" in the poodle world - like sending me a warning : " Who do you think you are to question me" !!!!????

I was disgusted !!!!!

And that is only ONE example. I can go on and on.... The point is - most lies to me were about health status and tests done !!!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I have had two very bad experiences with other breeders. One was before I owned Holly and was her foster Mom, sharing on a litter and expenses. I ended up taking her original owner to court over it, but just one lie after another. My Mom also had an agreement with these people and had the exact same experience, and was in the process of seeing it go to court when my Mom died.

The second was the owner of the stud dog on MY first litter. WOW....c-r-a-z-y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If someone who has been around breeding as long as me and my Mom were could be screwed over the way we were, I pity the average puppy buyer, trying to find someone who will honour their word, and live up to the agreements that are in place.

I was raised NOT to lie. I also have been hurt enough myself to NEVER try to pull one over on someone who is buying a baby from me. The way I see it, it will always come back and bite you in the bum. Most people who buy one Poo usually end up buying more in the future. I would hope coming back to me would be a consideration. But if I do not treat people right, they will not be coming back here, will they? THAT wouuld say a lot about the way I do business!!!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Yes. (not recent at all - love Gloria) 

BUT it was my own fault, I guess. This is why I am thankful for this forum, I am learning a good bit here (about our spoos) and I know where I would not go or recommend some to go in regards to a good poodle.


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

BUT it was my own fault, I guess. 
------
Hate to say it, but this is true. If people spent the time needed to check out a breeder really well, they shouldn't have to deal with trouble ahead.
Some are just in such a hurry... it's not the puppy you should be looking for, it's the breeder and wait till they have a puppy that is right for you.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

desertreef said:


> BUT it was my own fault, I guess.
> ------
> Hate to say it, but this is true. If people spent the time needed to check out a breeder really well, they shouldn't have to deal with trouble ahead.
> Some are just in such a hurry... it's not the puppy you should be looking for, it's the breeder and wait till they have a puppy that is right for you.


This is so true!!! People do need to develop a relationship with a breeder. So many people start looking and want a puppy now. What's the rush?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

desertreef said:


> BUT it was my own fault, I guess.
> ------
> Hate to say it, but this is true. If people spent the time needed to check out a breeder really well, they shouldn't have to deal with trouble ahead.
> Some are just in such a hurry... it's not the puppy you should be looking for, it's the breeder and wait till they have a puppy that is right for you.


I am shocked by this statement honestly. You make it sound as if people that want a quality dog have all the time in the world to interview (phone calls I've done have taken hours at a time), travel, get invested in a person, spend money going to where the breeder lives, watching them at shows, and it be for nothing if they turn out to be dishonest. And how are you supposed to find that out? Are you going to ask them for their W2s or are you going to do background checks on all of the people that you invest time and money into just to be sure they aren't liars and cheats? Then if they turn out to be not what they seem, oh let's just chalk that up and move onto someone else? What happened to a code of ethics, honesty, maybe a little faith in another human being? Byb aren't the only people that lie to buyers. Those big name breeders with lots of wins and lots of champions in the front of their dog's names lie to people too and then what are you supposed to do? If someone in their position would lie to someone wanting a pet, who then do you trust? I never in my life thought this much effort would have to be spent buying a family pet. Maybe some people should really take the advice a really rude breeder gave me, go to the shelter and get a dog that needs to be rescued because at least you won't have someone lie to your face when you hand them 1500+ dollars. If more of that started happening and there were less homes for the breeders that want to dump puppies/dogs they no longer wanted, they'd think twice about being deceitful to buyers.

Saying that it's the person's fault that was lied to is like saying it's the woman's fault that pissed off her husband when she was beaten. It's not the innocent person's fault when they are mistreated, it's the abuser, plain and simple.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

Kpoos, you shouldn't be shocked.

Say for instance you want to adopt a child. How much time would you spend on getting the right adoption agenciy, lawyer, if from another country all the additional paperwork and travel to this country? You probably wouldn't spend weeks or months but more likely years in finally being able to bring a wonderful new family member home.

The point is taking the time. It produces a much greater reward. Like a life long friend that loves the breed. Or many new friends and acquaintances who have the same love of the breed.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

thestars said:


> Kpoos, you shouldn't be shocked.
> 
> Say for instance you want to adopt a child. How much time would you spend on getting the right adoption agenciy, lawyer, if from another country all the additional paperwork and travel to this country? You probably wouldn't spend weeks or months but more likely years in finally being able to bring a wonderful new family member home.
> 
> The point is taking the time. It produces a much greater reward. Like a life long friend that loves the breed. Or many new friends and acquaintances who have the same love of the breed.


I have talked to several breeders for years and gotten to know them and I was still deceived. 

I think it does not matter how long you know someone or how quick you know someone. You just need to find HONEST people period. 

I also think you best bet to find out about a breeder is ask for references and ask to talk to these references this means other breeders , customers and even asking people on a forum.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I don't equate adopting a child with buying a puppy, sorry they are very different things. I do think time is a good thing but even with time, people will lie to you. If someone is going to be deceitful they are regardless of how much time you spend with them. The thing is that you will find it out and realize how much time you just wasted.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> The thing is that you will find it out and realize how much time you just wasted.


OMG this is the thing that really pisses me off you wasted the time getting to know some of these nut jobs and they still turn out BAD. 

I have my own list of rules on how to tell if a person is honest too. Every since I been burned by the cat breeders I have learned such much on how to find a sane honest breeder. 

Right now I have been talking to a few breeders for about a year now and I still don't feel comfortable getting a dog from said breeder because of a few red flags. 

I for one am in no rush. I had 3 pups sold from up under me ! when I was trying to make a decision about getting them all three breeder just sold pups even thought they said they would like them to be sold to a show home working home etc......

it seems like $$$ speaks louder than words in this economy right now.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

desertreef said:


> BUT it was my own fault, I guess.
> ------
> Hate to say it, but this is true. If people spent the time needed to check out a breeder really well, they shouldn't have to deal with trouble ahead.
> Some are just in such a hurry... it's not the puppy you should be looking for, it's the breeder and wait till they have a puppy that is right for you.


Very much agree. 



KPoos said:


> I am shocked by this statement honestly. You make it sound as if people that want a quality dog have all the time in the world to interview (phone calls I've done have taken hours at a time), travel, get invested in a person, spend money going to where the breeder lives, watching them at shows, and it be for nothing if they turn out to be dishonest...


While I agree that it is not ALWAYS the buyer's fault for getting duped, the more time and effort put into researching breeders, finding references, going to shows, seeing their dogs in person, meeting them in person, etc. the more likely you are to be satisfied with your pup. Many people DO rush into getting a dog, and find the first few breeder websites that look "legit" and are in their area and then pick between those. 



thestars said:


> Kpoos, you shouldn't be shocked.
> 
> Say for instance you want to adopt a child. How much time would you spend on getting the right adoption agenciy, lawyer, if from another country all the additional paperwork and travel to this country? You probably wouldn't spend weeks or months but more likely years in finally being able to bring a wonderful new family member home.
> 
> The point is taking the time. It produces a much greater reward. Like a life long friend that loves the breed. Or many new friends and acquaintances who have the same love of the breed.


_Adopting_ a child should not be related to _buying_ a puppy...ever. But yes, the putting the time into the search will likely produce better results. 



roxy25 said:


> I also think you best bet to find out about a breeder is ask for references and ask to talk to these references this means other breeders , customers and even asking people on a forum.


The only problem with references is making sure the references aren't the breeder's best buddies.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Yup it does and that goes for everyone including big names in poodles. You have no idea how annoying it is to spend hours talking to someone and getting to know them and then want to see test results if they aren't posted online and them come up with some reason they don't have them, didn't do them, or don't have the paperwork. It's like OMG do you not think someone that is spending this much time with you is going ot ask this? Just say it up front if you aren't testing.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Locket said:


> The only problem with references is making sure the references aren't the breeder's best buddies.


yes that is very TRUE ! 

i make sure the breeders don't have the same bloodline or dogs from said breeder when I ask about them. I also ask handlers at shows ! 

you get a bunch of info when you attend shows !


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Yup it does and that goes for everyone including big names in poodles. You have no idea how annoying it is to spend hours talking to someone and getting to know them and then want to see test results if they aren't posted online and them come up with some reason they don't have them, didn't do them, or don't have the paperwork. It's like OMG do you not think someone that is spending this much time with you is going ot ask this? Just say it up front if you aren't testing.


I think the honest answer is many buyers just dont ask the questions.......::wacko: Lack of knowledge, dont care and patience. This really makes it easy from some breeders to do the low down things I have heard about. In a perfect world everyone would be honest but they are not. Sad but true....


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Olie said:


> I think the honest answer is many buyers just dont ask the questions.......::wacko: Lack of knowledge, dont care and patience. This really makes it easy from some breeders to do the low down things I have heard about. In a perfect world everyone would be honest but they are not. Sad but true....


I agree with this. I think a lot of breeders face pet buyer who do not know what to ask but when they do run across some one who is knowledgeable they think its ok to do or say the same things to these people. :fish::doh:


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

Sorry KPoo to shock you... why is it ok for ME to waste hours and hours on someone wanting to get a puppy from me, but you shouldn't have to when finding a breeder to trust?
I have found... the more I talk to someone... the more information I get. And believe me... they can talk themselves right out from getting a puppy.

I'm sure it's very easy for you to think about 'yourself'... but I am responsible for for my puppies, forever. If I am willing to sacrafice my time to do things right, why shouldn't you? Why shouldn't anyone?

Cool down! I find your post offensive.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

desertreef said:


> Sorry KPoo to shock you... why is it ok for ME to waste hours and hours on someone wanting to get a puppy from me, but you shouldn't have to when finding a breeder to trust?
> I have found... the more I talk to someone... the more information I get. And believe me... they can talk themselves right out from getting a puppy.
> 
> I'm sure it's very easy for you to think about 'yourself'... but I am responsible for for my puppies, forever. If I am willing to sacrafice my time to do things right, why shouldn't you? Why shouldn't anyone?
> ...


As I find yours. You are insinuating that it's the person's fault when they get lied to. I mean even if you've done everything correctly you can still be lied to and that is NOT anyone's fault but the liar.

I'm not saying not to spend the time but it's very common for the buyer to spend the time and then guess what? The breeder hides something, lies, changes their story, and doesn't provide the needed information that the buyer is asking for and deserves to see. So after a while of this over and over, a person gets a little jaded.


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## artsycourtneysue (Jul 21, 2009)

Had a bichon breeder who tried to swap puppies after we had selected/been promised a certain puppy/given deposit.....when we came back to pick up the puppy 2 weeks later, she had a different puppy to hand to us....ridiculous.....

Since we did temperment evaluations and only the puppy we chose tested exactly as we wanted, we just sat in her living room and did the tests all over again lol....and eventually found our original puppy...


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

If you go back, KPoos, to my original post... I only said what she said was true... "But it was my own fault, I guess".

She was guessing.... 

You still don't get it. You are not a good and responsible breeder so you never will.

I can tell you stories that would be far worse than any of your experiences. Sometime, when I have the time, I should enlighten you and others.

Be happy you did find a nice puppy and breeder... right?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

desertreef said:


> You still don't get it. You are not a good and responsible breeder so you never will.


????? Kspoo is not a breeder ?????:doh:


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

desertreef said:


> If you go back, KPoos, to my original post... I only said what she said was true... "But it was my own fault, I guess".
> 
> She was guessing....
> 
> ...


Long ago I was duped - but now I know there were things I could have done differently. I seen many of the signs while talking with breeders in the last year. 

I think the points here are 2 sides of the fence. Breeders have to protect themselves and the dogs as buyers have to do the same. I think if you do everything you can do your chances of a better situation increase, but as kpoos says - why can't breeders be honest and credable no matter what.........but why aren't friends, husbands, wives, preachers, doctors, employers, co-workers, children........I think we can so badly WANT people to do the right thing's but NO MATTER WHAT there is not always a guarantee even if you are doing everything right, and sometimes its our own fault and sometimes it's not. What can I learn from it next time?

Some of that stuff, hypothetical


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Once with a Irish Setter. But many times by potential buyers.....Lots of folks not quite as honest as they could be......I do check references


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> ????? Kspoo is not a breeder ?????:doh:


I don't think she was referring to KPoos, I think she was saying 'you' as a general term.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I don't think she was referring to KPoos, I think she was saying 'you' as a general term.


I was not sure it just sounds weird reading it lol


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I was not sure it just sounds weird reading it lol


Yeah you see it a lot on the forums (there, I did it lol) and it can get confusing.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Yeah you see it a lot on the forums (there, I did it lol) and it can get confusing.


LMAO 

anyways this is what a learned

Find a mentor and have them help you.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

desertreef said:


> If you go back, KPoos, to my original post... I only said what she said was true... "But it was my own fault, I guess".
> 
> She was guessing....
> 
> ...


Look, the fact of the matter is that no matter how much time you spend with someone, no matter how much research you do, a person can play a role and then stab you in the back later after they sell the puppy. There are people on here that could attest to that and they probably spent a lot of effort and time getting to know a breeder and felt very comfortable with the person only to be deceived later on. Does it make it their fault that the person turned out to be not honest? I don't think it does at all. The buyer did their part. 

I'd say about 90% of the time it's about money. Money is what makes the world go round they say, and unfortunately it plays a bigger role in what makes a person "honest" and what doesn't. Just as it's a responsibility of a buyer to make the "commitment" to do their best in researching, it doesn't guarantee and it doesn't all fall in the buyer's lap either. If I wanted to buy a new Nissan Quest (currently own one) and did the research on the new models, since I currently own a Quest I feel like I have an advantage when I go and buy a new one. Well, I never walk into anything blind but I do tend to be a bit trusting. If I walked into the dealership and they told me something and sold me the van and I later found out that it was a lie, I'm not going to think "damn me for trusting that guy." I'm going to say "damn him for lying to me" and start telling people I know that so and so at Nissan is a liar and not to buy a car from him. My point is that I did my part and got lied to so I'm not taking responsibility for trusting someone. In that case we should never trust anyone ever.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Look, the fact of the matter is that no matter how much time you spend with someone, no matter how much research you do, a person can play a role and then stab you in the back later after they sell the puppy. There are people on here that could attest to that and they probably spent a lot of effort and time getting to know a breeder and felt very comfortable with the person only to be deceived later on. Does it make it their fault that the person turned out to be not honest? I don't think it does at all. The buyer did their part.
> 
> I'd say about 90% of the time it's about money. Money is what makes the world go round they say, and unfortunately it plays a bigger role in what makes a person "honest" and what doesn't. Just as it's a responsibility of a buyer to make the "commitment" to do their best in researching, it doesn't guarantee and it doesn't all fall in the buyer's lap either. If I wanted to buy a new Nissan Quest (currently own one) and did the research on the new models, since I currently own a Quest I feel like I have an advantage when I go and buy a new one. Well, I never walk into anything blind but I do tend to be a bit trusting. If I walked into the dealership and they told me something and sold me the van and I later found out that it was a lie, I'm not going to think "damn me for trusting that guy." I'm going to say "damn him for lying to me" and start telling people I know that so and so at Nissan is a liar and not to buy a car from him. My point is that I did my part and got lied to so I'm not taking responsibility for trusting someone. In that case we should never trust anyone ever.


Are you comnparing a poodle puppy to a Nissan Quest !!!!:scared:


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Are you comnparing a poodle puppy to a Nissan Quest !!!!:scared:


I'm assuming that's a joke cause it was pretty funny.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Road goes two ways. Lots of deceptive puppy buyers out there too and I bet there are stories about that as well :wacko: I know I have heard a bunch of em.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> Road goes two ways. Lots of deceptive puppy buyers out there too and I bet there are stories about that as well :wacko: I know I have heard a bunch of em.


Which is probably why pediatric spays and neuters are on the rise.


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

Yes, well it wasn't so much deception as we didn't know what the heck we were doing and the breeder was a back yard breeder. She led us to believe that he was registered under a very reputable registry and that both parents were prime breeding material (once she figured out this was our first dog). Well the CKC is a bogus registry, and she didn't even fill out the proper paperwork and we were unable to register him. To this day I have my suspicions as to whether or not he is truely purebred. And he has had mountains of health problems that simply genetic testing before breeding would have prevented. Our vet said that his parents never should have been bred together. My dog is the only surviving pup of the litter and the breeder almost lost her bitch during birth. Dad wasn't even on site, she used a stud service


But I guess that was our fault for not knowing any better at the time.


Now my parents, they were decieved and to this day they don't even realize it. They were sold a Tiny Toy Chocolate Poodle for over $2000. First of all the Tiny Toy and Teacup are nothing more than an unhealthy bred down version of the toy poodle. Second of all they are way out of breed standard. 3rd of all the woman was a puppymill diguised as a good breeder. She had 12 males and 16 females for breeding. All were Tiny Toy and Teacup. All were kept outside in kennel runs. None were show dogs. I'm not even sure they were AKC.

I know for a fact she was shut down 2 years ago for being a puppymill. (My parents do not know that though)

When I brought up to my parents how their dog is less than well bred once, my mother climbed all over me, saying we paid a fortune to get such a well bred dog. She came from a speciality breeder. She is a very good quality dog. To this day she believes that. (Despite the dogs health issues, despite the breeder never had a spay/neuter contract, despite there was no health guarentee and the breeder didn't health test)

They basically spent $2000 on a badly bred runt. But they choose not to believe that.


Anyways, sometimes I think bybs and puppymills prey on those that aren't educated in breed standards, those who are willing to shell out a lot of money because the dog is an accessory dog, and those that just don't know better. Whatever it is, its a shame.

I'm proud to say I have learned from my mistakes, I care for the dog and I love the dog I have that came from bad breeding, but I will never go to a less than reputable breeder again. Only the shelter and/or reputable breeder from now on. I will do my research first


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

PoodlesRforever said:


> Well the CKC is a bogus registry...


Just to clarify, you mean the Continental Kennel Club, not the Canadian Kennel Club right?


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

Locket said:


> Just to clarify, you mean the Continental Kennel Club, not the Canadian Kennel Club right?


Yes the continental not the canadian. (I'm in the US)
I knew someone who had a friend that supposedly registered a pot belly pig as a Purebred Chinese Crested through them. Why did they do it, just to see if they could. They don't even require a photo I hear.

Again that may be a tall tale, but that is what I was told


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Yes, I think that point got lost :doh:

No matter how much one spends time and do alllll possible research and no matter how long one "courts" breeders - it is very hard to find honest ones !!!!!

THAT IS THE POINT !

And I can only imagine what happens to "average" puppy buyer who trusts anything said by a breeder when I still stumble on breeders who try to "pull my leg" even when they see that I know what I am looking for and what I am talking about LMAO !!!???

It is so silly of them to try to hide anything since now all is available on the net - how possibly they think it will NOT surface up ????

Either they are delusional or they think that everybody else is a complete idiot anyway LMAO 

And yes - I HATE WASTED TIME !!!!!! I have a life to live , you know LOL

I want to jump out of my skin when I spend 3 weeks "talking" just to discover that what I asked FIRST day was actually never answered or was falsely answered.

I also am a person who never lies and would never take advantage over another human being (or any being) for any amount of money or anything else and I am abhorred when I discover somebody lying to my face - I almost feel sick to my stomach !!!!!!!! I take it as the *biggest* insult !!!!! I would not take that puppy for free !!!!!!!! 

Yes - the only way sadly is actually never trusting anybody and doing cross-references (handlers, owners), listening to what breeders say about each other LMAO - since they get duped on regular bases among themselves too! 

Look at hard evidence - test results and contracts. Look at actual dogs if you can - if you do not like Sire or the Dam for whatever reason - do not count that puppies would turn out much better. 

Anyways - poodle world is "Every man for himself" land and it is just sooooo
sad :smow:

And no, it is never buyers fault when he is lied to - COME ONNNN !!!!!!!???? How can possibly somebody be at fault that other person is a rotten human being ??????????? Just preposterous !!!!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

I think the point goes both ways ...


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> I think the point goes both ways ...


That is true but that's a point for your own thread.


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## blackcurls (Dec 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Yes, I think that point got lost :doh:
> 
> No matter how much one spends time and do alllll possible research and no matter how long one "courts" breeders - it is very hard to find honest ones !!!!!
> 
> ...


If that is the what you think the "poodle world" is then I pity you. and I feel ashamed that it is even up there for all to see. Sure there is good and bad in breeders and buyers but hey, thats life. Its the balance.Tell me one area of life that is perfect and I will show you an Illusion.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

blackcurls said:


> If that is the what you think the "poodle world" is then I pity you. and I feel ashamed that it is even up there for all to see. Sure there is good and bad in breeders and buyers but hey, thats life. Its the balance.Tell me one area of life that is perfect and I will show you an Illusion.


As my husband says, anything that's political has it's back stabbing and bickering and everyone seems to be in it for themselves.


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

I don't know if you would call this deception, but I thought it was pretty [email protected] rude.
Before I got Flip through the rescue, I was talking to a 'breeder' about her upcoming litter...we see two dogs that came from her at our clinic, and while they might not be perfectly colored (one is a bad black) they both have great personalities. Of course, I know better than to even look twice at this breeder now, but I called her about a puppy, and she NEVER CALLED ME BACK. They never update their website either. And I didn't know she was breeding partis this time.

FAIL.

http://www.wildrosestandardpoodles.com/htm/about.html


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I wouldn't count her out because she's a parti breeder. UKC still recognizes partis and people show them there. If she wasn't health testing, puppies weren't socialized, breeding dogs with no adherence to the breed standard, etc., then I'd look else where. I didn't look through the whole website so I have no idea. It was very rude of her not to get back to you with answers to your questions though.


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

Oh no, I didn't, I counted her out because she said she'd for sure have a black one for me, and she never called me back! 
I think partis can be cute, but the two she was/is? going to breed aren't so hot.

Some of the photos on her page seem a bit ...weird.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

OH yeah if you don't like the parents skip them.


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

Honestly I got the impression that she wasn't really into breeding anymore.
One of the people who come in to the clinic tried to get in touch with her to get another dog, and she never called that family back either.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

_"If that is the what you think the "poodle world" is then I pity you. and I feel ashamed that it is even up there for all to see. Sure there is good and bad in breeders and buyers but hey, thats life. Its the balance.Tell me one area of life that is perfect and I will show you an Illusion"._

I do not even see what are you trying to say ???? What I think is what is the result of my experience dealing with a deceiving breeders - and now it is ME that have to be ashamed - you must be kidding me :doh::smow:

And I absolutely think that it should be out for everybody to know and see since "sweeping" problems under the rug is not going to help to change what is wrong - or you would rather like to keep it a secret perhaps ????

I do not know in what relationships do you live and what you take as "have to live with" - in MY world - my surrounding, I choose to socialize only with the honest and just people !!!!! What is "out there" I know perfectly well - but I choose not do deal with those or make them as a part of "my world" in any shape or form. 

If my grocery clerk puts a rotten apple in my bag - that is last time he/she will see me in that store and I will certainly let my friend know where NOT to go. If the whole chain of stores is doing same thing - I say SHAME on that chain LOL not me for discovering rotten apples an mass !!!!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Are you comparing rotten apples to dog breeding?:lol::lol:


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Lmao no - rotten apples to rotten persons lmao ; )

PS: And I never understood arguments where "other bad things" justify original bad thing happening ???


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Lmao no - rotten apples to rotten persons lmao ; )
> 
> PS: And I never understood arguments where "other bad things" justify original bad thing happening ???


Because don't you know, we are all 100% to blame for everyone else's shortcomings.


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## blackcurls (Dec 15, 2009)

My message is simple, My poodle world is not "everyman for himself", its help who and where you can.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Because don't you know, we are all 100% to blame for everyone else's shortcomings.


Oh I seeee :doh: - OK - lets *"kill the messenger"* LMAO 

Blackcurls - "My poodle world is not "everyman for himself", its help who and where you can." 



Well - my world is like that too - I help as much as I can and any time I can -heck I wish I can help more !!!!! That is why I scream here trying to warn others to be careful !!!! Hmmmmm... I wonder than where is the discord between your philosophy and mine - I said "it is SADLY the case" ...I never implied I would not help or say the information - actually I think I say WAY too much here and get "flamed" all the time :doh: 

I have a feeling you did not read the whole thread :rolffleyes:


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I honestly agree w/ Desertreef to an extent. You have to educate yourself and I have hard time feeling sympathy for people who "order" the first cute puppy they seen online. If you go to Rip Off Report or a general pet forum, like terrific pets, most of the breeder complaint are from people who just made it soooo easy for someone to take advantage of them. One person bought an English Bulldog from a breeder b/c they only charge $1000 and of course they did no research on the breed or breeder, now they are shocked that their pup has skin problems. They were searching for a bargain and now will have to pay the difference in vet bills. 

I've had bad experiences w/ breeders. While Harley's breeder didn't neccessarily decieve me, I would've done myself a favor had I educated myself. My family bought a puppy when I was quite young and we were promised papers later, yeah right! You learn from those mistakes and try not to let it make you bitter. 

I think it's a lot like health testing, just b/c a breeder does all the tests, doesn't mean it's impossible for your pup to have a genetic defect. Educating yourself won't make you burn proof, but it will reduce the chances.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Because don't you know, we are all 100% to blame for everyone else's shortcomings.


 Is this nice?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Is this nice?


I miss your meaning here.


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## Ladybug (Jan 2, 2010)

I was totally deceived by the Miniature Aussie breeder that I went with a few years ago. I told her that I wanted to raise them (I was raising Miniature Horses at the time as well). We talked on the phone nearly every day for about 6 months before I even got a puppy. She was a stay at home mom, like me and home schooled her kids. She had 4 kids and they lived in the country too. I considered this woman to be my friend.

She sold me a breeding bitch, a miniature that never grew, stayed a toy size, and started biting my kids. When I told her about it, she informed me that she had had to put BOTH of the parents down for aggressive behavior!! WHAT!? But she offered to take the dog back and get me a dog from a new bitch she had that had some really great bloodlines. I hated to part with my little toy, she was my baby, but I couldn't keep her around my kids at all. She would growl and bite them every chance she got. So I did the trade. I had to wait a couple of months for the new puppy. 

To make a long story short, I paid the woman $3000 for two female puppies and $350 for a breeding male dog (he was older and she needed to rehome him.) This was all over about a year and half. She promised that the combo of my girls and the male would be great. When the girls hit their second heat cycle, they were both 2 years old. I bred them. Nothing. No puppies. It turned out the male was infertile! He hadn't bred any females since he was 1 1/2 old and he was 9 at this time. 

My friend, the breeder, became so angry with me, accusing me of trying to wiggle out of my contract (even though I paid her cash for the girls, she was supposed to get a one pick of the litter puppy back from each litter). I told her I wasn't, that I was hoping she would help me find a good male to breed the girls to. It seemed that all was fine when we got off the phone...

Next thing I know I am getting threatening letters in the mail and nasty emails. She even got a lawyer! She demanded the dogs back and even tried to get a dog that I had bought for a friend of mine (it was a horse trade deal... very confusing). I had to give her back both of my females and the male in order to allow my friend to keep her dog. Sigh. I was out the $3350 and lost all of my dogs. It was a horrible time. I will NEVER try to be a dog breeder again. That was an awful experience. Later I heard from others that she did the same thing to other people. She's a tricky gal. She gets the dogs back, breeds them to a different male (she had my male put to sleep!!) gets a few litters, then sells the females as pets! It's amazing how much money this lady is bringing in "recycling" dogs in the this fashion...


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

OMG that's a horrible story. She sounds like a con artist.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

*Interesting....*

What an interesting thread. I'm supposed to be in bed right now, have to get up really early to go to the doctors but Nicholas has other ideas so here I sit lol. Can't wait for eviction day!!! 

In reff. to the first point of the post - Yes I have been lied to, and surprised, and hurt, and down right disgusted both by other breeders and a few prospective puppy owners. 

In Saleen's case she was supposed to come home with a health certificate from a vet and have been "vet checked" she'd never seen a vet in her life, all her vax. had been done by the breeder - dunno about the tail dock but it's possible - she had yeast infections in both ears, and worms even though she had supposedly been wormed frequently as a puppy. I believe she *may* have had a bactierial infection because she had chronic loose stool off and on and it never firmed up until she got a UTI and was put on an antibiotic for that. Viola, problem gone and she began to gain weight like crazy -finially!

Saleen was also supposed to have been raised '"in home, underfoot, and with children" Not the case. In spite of photos of her inside a home when John got there to pick her up she was living in a converted barn that had stalls that had been turned into kennel runs. Not every on had a litter of puppies in it, though I bet they do now, but there were other pups there. Saleen's was the only poodle litter. As I understood it later, Saleen was living with a "puppy raiser" who was purchasing her mother by raising a litter of puppies for the breeder if that makes sense. She called my husband the day after he picked Saleen up and wanted to make sure they made it home ok and that I liked the puppy, I spoke to her then and it was then that I realized SHE was not the breeder with whom I had been speaking to. 

Surprisingly I have to agree with Kpoo's first post on being a little shocked, and I myself am a tiny bit surprised that so many others disagreed. Sorry, but it's never you're fault if you are straight up LIED to. You can spend a great deal of time getting to know somebody and still get a shock, even years later. 
I was shocked to find out recently that a breeder who has used my own stud had produced demodex in more than one litter and of course blamed Howie as he must be why, even though he's NEVER sired an effected litter. Upon further research I was even more shocked to find that she was well aware of her own dogs being carriers but had kept that quiet. It only came out because a puppy she sold had to be put down because the mange was so horrible and would not respond to treatment. This is a breeder who is supposed to be a good friend and ironicly (haha) just recently asked to use Howie at stud once again. Ummmm sorry, you can't afford him.

Hate to say it but breeders are really really good at keeping secrets. In my very first litter I got blue eyes which is a BIG no no and surprise that was not the first litter this stud dog produced it in which is not something that was admited to until a year later. Alot of breeders in are REALLY good at hiding the serious health problems that they have with the help of euthanasia and often closely knit groups of friends  So yay you get to breed to the awesome dog who won the speciality and as a bonus you also get liver shunt and PRA. Congrats. Of course once this becomes public it becomes all YOUR fault you're bitch must be where the problem is coming from it couldn't be the big name breeder.... This is a true story BTW  though it didn't happen to me thankfully.

The point I'm getting at is that if an experience breeder, or a breed full of experienced breeders can be lied to then woe to the poor first time puppy buyer. It would be amazingly simple to say one thing and mean another to them. Even a well educated one when you think about it. A certain amount of blind trust is needed both on the breeder and the buyers end. Just like with Saleen's health cert. No you can't see it in advance, it's a 10 day certificate in our case so you'll just have to trust me to do it as well as the shots I say I'm going to have done. Occasionally we get the 30 day certs but usually it's the 10 day and we do it just a few days before puppy is to go home. You also have to trust that I have wormed when I said I wormed and the dog is indeed sired by who I say it's sired by. 

Now if you don't ask the right questions and you get something you didn't intend to get, that's kind of your fault - assuming you were educated in the first place on what to ask a breeder, and lets face it a lot of people are not. Look at all the BYB's who don't even KNOW about conditions like SA, PRA, Hip displaysia and the like. If I ask a person in one of my training classes about health testing because they want to breed the answer would be "yeah he's been to the vet he's fine". Sadly vets don't help alot, most of them never mention genetic testing to a person who is considering breeding a litter. Maybe they get tired of arguing the point or maybe they don't care.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I have to say that at least some of the people who say "the vet checked them over" when you ask about health testing, know exactly what you are talking about. I've seen it on other forums. When people explain that they mean real health testing, like x-rays and blood test sent off to independent labs, they get all defensive or disapear. Those that haven't bred their dogs yet, go ahead w/o the testing. I just had one breeder tell me on a forum (lord knows why I still go there) that health testing is just a gimmick to get more money for a puppy! (Potential Dobie owners/breeders watch out.)


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I have to say that at least some of the people who say "the vet checked them over" when you ask about health testing, know exactly what you are talking about. I've seen it on other forums. When people explain that they mean real health testing, like x-rays and blood test sent off to independent labs, they get all defensive or disapear. Those that haven't bred their dogs yet, go ahead w/o the testing. I just had one breeder tell me on a forum (lord knows why I still go there) that health testing is just a gimmick to get more money for a puppy! (Potential Dobie owners/breeders watch out.)


This is a fact harley chick you should be able to see certificates if you dont then it does not exist...Opinions dont cut it in my world. I have heard that statement too "that health testing is just a gimmick to get more money for a puppy! " Or the health testing is inconclusive. UH UH that is not true.....I really like the one that the parents were clear and when you go to look they arent 
 
This is a pet peeve for me .....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> This is a fact harley chick you should be able to see certificates if you dont then it does not exist...Opinions dont cut it in my world. I have heard that statement too "that health testing is just a gimmick to get more money for a puppy! " Or the health testing is inconclusive. UH UH that is not true.....I really like the one that the parents were clear and when you go to look they arent
> 
> This is a pet peeve for me .....


Wow!! What a generalization!!! The dogs I breed have been health tested. We have talked about this before. I do not post my tests on my site. BUT if someone wants a copy of them, I am only too happy to fax or mail them. THEY HAVE BEEN DONE!!! So, just because someone does not see them on a web site or on OFA does not mean THEY DO NOT EXIST!!!! Holly has had her hips certified, her thyroid checked, she is clear of vWD, she had s/a done (but we do not do this test anymore unless there would be signs of skin trouble) and her eyes were CERFED. You are like a broken record. If people don't do things your way, then they don't exisit? Give me a break!!!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

The thing to take away about health testing it is important for a buyer to make sure that they see evidence in some way of testing. This can be hard-copy evidence or online evidence. It is also important to have a handle on what testing results mean. i.e OFA prelims are not an official certification... CERF needs to be done every year etc

Remember, though, while you may be dealing with a bitch owner, it is equally important to see the health testing on the stud dog (hey that's half of your puppy's genetic make-up!). The bitch may be fully tested, but the stud dog might not be. I think this is the advantage of online testing. A buyer can go and peruse the testing for themselves. However, if testing is not online, the bitch owner should be able to send you hard copies of all the stud's testing.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> The thing to take away about health testing it is important for a buyer to make sure that they see evidence in some way of testing. This can be hard-copy evidence or online evidence. It is also important to have a handle on what testing results mean. i.e OFA prelims are not an official certification... CERF needs to be done every year etc
> 
> Remember, though, while you may be dealing with a bitch owner, it is equally important to see the health testing on the stud dog (hey that's half of your puppy's genetic make-up!). The bitch may be fully tested, but the stud dog might not be. I think this is the advantage of online testing. A buyer can go and peruse the testing for themselves. However, if testing is not online, the bitch owner should be able to send you hard copies of all the stud's testing.


Agreed!!!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> i.e OFA prelims are not an official certification...


This needed to be stated again ! The breeders who are breeding dogs younger than 24 months need to stop lying by saying my dogs are OFA.
http://offa.org/


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Remember, though, while you may be dealing with a bitch owner, it is equally important to see the health testing on the stud dog (hey that's half of your puppy's genetic make-up!). The bitch may be fully tested, but the stud dog might not be. I think this is the advantage of online testing. A buyer can go and peruse the testing for themselves. However, if testing is not online, the bitch owner should be able to send you hard copies of all the stud's testing.


So true! I almost got burned by this. The person was truthful, saying my breeding dogs are fully health tested. I took that to mean any dogs she bred to would be as well. Luckily I asked specifically and that wasn't the case. The stud hadn't had a single health test. So you really do have to be specific in your questioning and not make assumptions...


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Wow!! What a generalization!!! The dogs I breed have been health tested. We have talked about this before. I do not post my tests on my site. BUT if someone wants a copy of them, I am only too happy to fax or mail them. THEY HAVE BEEN DONE!!! So, just because someone does not see them on a web site or on OFA does not mean THEY DO NOT EXIST!!!! Holly has had her hips certified, her thyroid checked, she is clear of vWD, she had s/a done (but we do not do this test anymore unless there would be signs of skin trouble) and her eyes were CERFED. You are like a broken record. If people don't do things your way, then they don't exisit? Give me a break!!!


Geesh this was not a personal attack against you....... I was agreeing to a previous post. Why would you take offense to this? It is not just MY way it is the way of alot of breeders at leat the ones that I want to deal with , and I think I should to be able to see it .. Man .....hwell:


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> So true! I almost got burned by this. The person was truthful, saying my breeding dogs are fully health tested. I took that to mean any dogs she bred to would be as well. Luckily I asked specifically and that wasn't the case. The stud hadn't had a single health test. So you really do have to be specific in your questioning and not make assumptions...


And see in my opinion, you knew the questions to ask and the breeder intentionally deceived you thinking you wouldn't ask something else. I wouldn't have blamed you later for being lied to, that's insane. If you ask the question the honest truthful answer needs to be given or else the person that is deceitful is to blame not the person that asked.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

............


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Olie said:


> ............


Sending you a PM! :lol:


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> Geesh this was not a personal attack against you....... I was agreeing to a previous post. Why would you take offense to this? It is not just MY way it is the way of alot of breeders at leat the ones that I want to deal with , and I think I should to be able to see it .. Man .....hwell:


Please not this again did you not forget the health testing thread ? 

Take it to Pms ladies


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> Sending you a PM! :lol:


I guess some will see my sillyness coming out  Long week ya'll


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