# Adopted 2 shelter poodles- "littermate syndrome" need some advice please



## Wingsinmoonlight (Jan 21, 2014)

So, 
I adopted two poodles from a local shelter. I've never had poodles before. They were turned in when their elderly owner went into a nursing home.

The boys have been here 2 weeks. I have gotten to know them, and could use some advice. I tell them they are terrible bad dogs, but they don't seem to care. (i do love them already )

The shelter said they had been adopted once before and returned. They had NO IDEA why they got brought back--- 
Well, I DO...lol

The boys are littermates, and should probably have been separated a long time ago. They are 7 years old. The shelter wanted them to stay together, so I have to live with it.

Bert is outgoing and bouncy. Ernie is shy and scared. Bert actively tries to hog all the attention, and Ernie lets him. He will jump up and push Ernie away, steal his treats, and generally just shove himself between you and Ernie. They need to learn to be apart at least sometimes.

Bert- when with the human is fine without Ernie. When the human is not with him he is fine with Ernie. Without human OR Ernie he screams...a lot.

Ernie does not care if he is with Bert a human or another dog. Calm cool, lives on the couch.

Boys knew nothing-Bert now sits, shakes and lays down. Ernie sits but only on the couch. 

Both pee in my house.(hike legs even though neutered) Great- now I have three in diapers.

Both chew things up...anything...except dog toys. They don't like those. they jump up on the table and my desk and they eat books.

They are super smart- never do anything bad unless I;m asleep or gone.

So, help me make a plan. I have belly bands. I bought a new baby gate so that every room in the house can now be open or shut individually. I have "puppy proofed" (they are SEVEN?!). 

What now? These guys are possibly smarter than me. I wonder if I'm dealing with a form of separation anxiety. I need a plan to be able to work with them one on one, since Bert won;t let Ernie learn. They are here to stay, give me some tips- I didn;t realize how easy my slow lazy pugs were.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm not sure I have any good advice, beyond what you are already doing, but I think you are a SAINT!

One small thing that may help is turn taking - I have mine sit in a row, and each dog gets a treat when their name is called. Pushy, grabby dogs get theirs last... It only took a few rounds for them to grasp the principle, and the dogs now even accept the cats joining in. 

It sounds as if both would benefit from a good obedience or other training class - taken slowly and gently it can be a great confidence builder. I've found Agility particularly good.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Oooh, I feel for you. I've raised pups together - not an easy task. It's much, much more difficult with adult dogs. On the bright side, poodles are pretty easy to live/work with (usually). 

Ok, first - Bert and Ernie - so cute! 

My first suggestion, although perhaps not popular - crates, separate crates. What I have done in the past with a pair that had to be placed together but one was letting the other basically starve, was I got two wire crates. I set them side by side so they could see and even touch each other but just not be together. Slowly, as they (or he) becomes more confident, start separating the crates. Still let them see each other, but not have physical contact. 

The super shy guy may be a great candidate for clicker/marker training. It helps build confidence. Clicker training encourages is the dog makes the decisions therefore increasing self-confidence. He is never corrected, just rewarded for correct decisions. 

When you are not able to supervise - crate them. Whenever you're gone or asleep, etc. When they are loose with you, tether them to you. This is a great time to work one-on-one with the boys. They really learn to like tethering if you are 'clumsy' and occasionally drop treats while they are close to you. 

This is sooooo not a situation with a 'quick fix,' but, it CAN be managed. I noticed you said three boys in diapers - crating and tethering will help him (you actually) with that issue, too.

I wish you all the best with your boys.

Thank you for giving them a chance at life. You are an angel.


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## Lily's-Mom (May 31, 2012)

Congratulations on your new "puppies". Even thought they are 7 yrs old, they are in a new and unfamiliar environment, so I think you do have to treat them a bit like puppies in training them to a new place and new people, a new routine, etc. I can't offer you advice on how to deal with separation anxiety, but I'm sure others will be able to give suggestions. I just wanted to say how wonderful of you to take both of these guys into your family.


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## Wingsinmoonlight (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks so much for suggestions. Yes, my preexisting male pug is also in belly bands 24/7. My girl pug mix seems to just smirk at them.

I like the separate crates idea. The shelter people say they must go in the same crate or they will DIE of sad...I doubt that very much. I;ve haven;t tried crate training in a long time- my pug was not smart enough- he just peed and pooed all over the crate and himself. It was less mess to just leave him loose, then I only had to clean the floor, not the floor the crate and the dog multiple times a day.

I can live with the messes.

Most of my worry is the shy one- he has been so overwhelmed by his brother that he appears to have essentially no personality. I want better for him.

I love the idea of doing a class and/or agility- but I can;t take the shy one to a class, because his brother will SCREAM for hours nonstop. And he is the one who really needs it. I can take the bold brother, and I do plan to, but poor Ernie...


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i agree with borderkelpie re crate training - especially since it can be very helpful with potty training. just make sure the crates are comfortable enough that they eventually become places of refuge for the dog.

bert sounds like a needy extrovert with incipient separation anxiety. so maybe a small kong filled with peanut butter for those times when he is crated alone (as in, you have ernie out for potty training and leashed to you time). intended message: no human, no ernie, oh, good, something to chew and munch on! of course ernie does need to be treated equally when his turn comes, but that's just a reward for doing what he already seems to do.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Just for grins and giggles - ask your vet about melatonin for the screamer. It can take the edge off his anxiety. I found it works nicely for my neurotic (chronic head injury) BC.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Wingsinmoonlight*: I am completely awed that you have given these two bonded mini littermates a home!:adore: I'm glad people here could offer you suggestions. I am clueless as to what to do with two hyper bonded adult littermates. A while ago a friend of mine got two Springer Spaniel littermates, in trying to help prepare her for their arrival I came across this blog. She followed the advice and founded it helpful with the pups. Though I don't imagine it has much relevance to your situation. Just thought maybe someone out there might benefit from the informaton if they're contemplating getting littermates or already have. I wish you well and applaud your dog loving heart!:clover:
Littermate Syndrome: The risky downside to raising sibling puppies | Jeff Stallings, CPDT-KA.
* Be crated separately, in opposing parts of the house 
* Be fed separately 
* Be walked and played with separately 
* Be trained separately 
* Be taken to different puppy socials 
* Be taken to the vet at different times


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## Constance (Jun 4, 2013)

Sorry to but in, but why are there disadvantages to taking home litter mates?I always wished we had taken one of Ginsengs brothers or sisters when we had her so the dogs would have company. We only took Coco because with three kids now I don't have the energy to do two!

Reading this forum, I always realize I have a lot to learn.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Constance said:


> Sorry to but in, but why are there disadvantages to taking home litter mates?I always wished we had taken one of Ginsengs brothers or sisters when we had her so the dogs would have company. We only took Coco because with three kids now I don't have the energy to do two!
> 
> Reading this forum, I always realize I have a lot to learn.


The link I posted above outlines some of the concerns. Here's an excerpt.

Littermate Syndrome: The risky downside to raising sibling puppies
Posted on July 18, 2013	by Jeff Stallings, CPDT-KA

By Jeff Stallings, CPDT-KA

Littermate syndrome is a condition in which hyper-bonded sibling dogs have difficulty relating to humans and other dogs. In my most recent case, an owner’s email could serve as a go-to primer for this syndrome: At 12 weeks old, the two puppies were terrified of people and other dogs and frightened of everything outside of their home: Airplanes flying overhead, leaves blowing in the wind, passing cars, and all novel stimuli. It was almost impossible to get the attention of the two puppies even for an instant as they were so focused on each other. They then began fighting frequently.

It is important to note that there are exceptions and that not all sibling pairs will have symptoms, but the risk seems to be fairly high. Anecdotal evidence suggests that littermate syndrome manifests because, during a crucial early development period—when puppies should be bonding with humans, learning the nuances of canine and human communication, and discovering the world—the two puppies instead bond tightly with each other to the exclusion of humans. The symptoms are different in each case, but can include:

Not bonding with humans nor socializing with other dogs
Not learning to read human signals
Not learning to trust people
Playing only with each other to the exclusion of other dogs
Not learning basic skills, such as potty training and bite inhibition
Severe distress when separated from each other even for a few minutes
Fighting with each other, sometimes brutally, as they reach adolescence (at about 8 – 10 months)

The puppies come to rely on each other, which can weaken the confidence of both of them—often to the extent that they become withdrawn from everything other than themselves. One of the dogs may appear bold and the other timid but in reality the bold one is also withdrawn and timid when his littermate is not present to provide support. Unfortunate


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## Constance (Jun 4, 2013)

Wow! that's amazing! So much to learn. And now I know we were lucky that shy Cocohad no incidents the three times we took her to dark parks with nno knowledge of the risks and how that was a bad way to socialize a shy puppy!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I think you need to identify and prioritize the problems you need to deal with. I think the biggest issues are the ones caused by the previous owner giving them no training. Piddling inside, counter surfing, chewing everything, and general poor manners - those are the problems I would address first. I think the separation anxiety, jealousy, and litter mate issues are lesser priorities. Keep in mind that these guys have been uprooted and are pretty stressed right now. Their sibling bond is their last remaining constant. Rather than messing with this source of stability immediately, I'd start building a new foundation based on good training and a relationship with you.

My boys are litter mates. Pogo is the bouncy high energy boy; he'd be fine as a singleton. Snarky is clingy and insecure. I think he'd have developed major separation anxiety if raised as a single dog. 

I agree wholeheartedly with fjm's idea of teaching them to take turns. I separate them when I first introduce them to a new trick. One dog goes and watches TV with spouse while I work with the other dog. Once they know the trick I will have them practice it in turns. Pogo sits and gets a treat. Snarky does a down and gets his treat. Pogo shakes for a treat. Snarky sits and gets a treat. And so forth. I'd ignore the dog for doing a trick out of turn.

Once the boys got the idea of turns, I started working on making them take time outs to watch me work with the other dog. They are permitted to sleep on the couch and chairs, so I taught them to go to their favorite sleeping spot for a treat. Then I taught them to come off the couch for a treat. Getting on and off the couch became yet another trick for them. I would tell Pogo to get on the couch and reward him with a treat. I'd tell Snarky to shake and give him his treat. I'd then tell Pogo to wait and immediately give him his treat for still being on the couch. I'd tell Snarky to sit, reward him, and then reward Pogo for still being on the couch. If Pogo got off the couch I'd simply put him back on with no treat, and I'd turn back to Snarky.

Eventually I was able to build up longer durations of waiting on the couch. I would add other variations. I would put them on the couch, leave the room, come back and give them a treat. Or I would leave the room, call them, and reward them for finding me. After months of this kind of repetition the boys' bad habits improved a lot. Pogo learned to wait instead of always having to be the center of attention. Snarky's confidence improved as he realized that good things had come before and would come again later, even if they weren't coming right at that exact second.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

First, kudos for taking these mini Poodles on. You've already gotten great advice. Don't let the article scare you. I know it's late in their life to try to make them change much. So, I'm thinking while working on some of the confidence building and conditioning of them...getting them use to some alone time away from each other and you, you can also compromise a little by accepting that they bonded early on to each other and go with the flow as far as accommodating them to a degree....to make them more comfortable.

I got two puppies at the same time, (same age) knowing the potential for this "syndrome" although they are from different litters. The difference is that they were not all together in the same pen at the breeders and when I brought them home, they did some things separately. I don't do all the things that article mentions. They do eat side by side. They sleep in separate crates, sometimes near each other, sometimes in a different room. They each get their own walks and training time with me. Matisse goes to a class and sometimes Maurice comes to watch from his crate and then he gets to trot around for socialization time after class and sometimes he stays home. Soon, Maurice will be taking a class. I went to a dog show and for four days Matisse was with me. Maurice stayed home with a "babysitter" some of the time. So all day he was separate from Matisse. Then I'd come home at night...except for one night when I stayed in a motel. He did fine, as though he couldn't care less if we were all gone. LOL.

When I take one out for a walk or something, the other cries but the gets right over it in a couple minutes and is fine. (I listen) I get down on the floor and play with them both together and sometimes take one upstairs to my room to hang out while I do something and leave the other in the ex pen....just little chunks of time apart. I sometimes work with them together as far as training...all four of my dogs actually...sitting in front of me... and they practice giving me eye contact and focus which they're rewarded for. Anyhow, that seems to be working for us. They're both responsive to me, come when I call their names, even if they're playing together. Maurice is the real lap sitter of the two, as Matisse is usually too busy and Maurice would rather sit on my lap than play with Matisse in the evening for a spell. So, I don't do anything too extreme as far as keeping them apart but they do get their experiences apart as well as together.

That said, I wouldn't do anything extreme right off the bat. Your dogs have 7 years behind them and it isn't fair to shock them into being away from each other too much. I'd kind of go with it and let them be together with little practice sessions that are of tolerable length, then increase the durations a bit as they (and if they) get okay with the previous level. That early imprinting that took place is _very_ impressionable and I don't think you can completely upset the cart and make huge changes without causing some real psychological stress, which isn't healthy emotionally or physically.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

My sister is a dog trainer and she has said the dumbest dog she ever worked with and gave up on was a pug...lol 

Loud mouth will learn that crying gets him no where with time. Get crates and let each dog learn to be alone . You are in charge here, don't forget that... Take each dog on walks alone, have alone play time ect. Do this is small amounts of time, not all at once. Crate them when you are not watching them and keep them on leashes until you have completely stopped the going to potty in the house.

It will take time, but poodles are smart and they can learn new tricks at 7 years old. Bless you for taking this on, they are super cute and I hope you start enjoying them soon.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

BorderKelpie said:


> Just for grins and giggles - ask your vet about melatonin for the screamer. It can take the edge off his anxiety. I found it works nicely for my neurotic (chronic head injury) BC.


actually i think bk has hit the nail on the head re where to begin. in _decoding your dog_, written by members of the american college of veterinary behaviorists and published this year, there is a whole chapter on separation anxiety which points to important first steps: diagnosis and then a treatment program that may include some of the suggestions made here, including possible medication, use of crates, food toys, rewarding calm behavior in general, etc.

your instinct about ernie makes sense to me, too. he can't continue to be simply used and bullied by bert rather than treated respectfully in his own right. you probably could help both by consulting a veterinary behaviorist to see if bert indeed has clinical separation anxiety, but maybe you will also get some help for ernie; he sounds depressed to me, but that could just be the contrast to bert.


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## PoodleFoster (May 25, 2013)

So, I adopted two poodles from a local shelter. I've never had poodles before. They were turned in when their elderly owner went into a nursing home.
The boys have been here 2 weeks. 
The boys are littermates, and should probably have been separated a long time ago. They are 7 years old. 
Bert is outgoing and bouncy. Ernie is shy and scared.
Both pee in my house.
I have belly bands. I bought a new baby gate so that every room in the house can now be open or shut individually. 

Thanks for adopting these 2 boys...they need some obedience and structure!
You don't mention a kennel...use them. They should be in kennels unless you have direct supervision of them. Tether one at a time. The suggestion to put them in crates next to each other is a good idea. I don't have any experience with littermates, but crates side by side seems like a good start.

Food: are you free feeding or are they on a feed schedule? The structure is GOOD for them. that may help with the potty issues.

Using the belly bands is a good start. We go out and pee, not in the house, see. When we come in the house, whether we pee or not, we go back in the kennel. (use wire, they can see better and it's not so confining.) IF no pee, then we set the timer for 15 min and back out again. Carry them out if you have to so they don't slip a pee by you before you get outside.

Make sure your pugs get everything first, then the shy one. That may give him confidence or at least he may think you love him best.... 

I can't wait to hear more about your poodles. I hope it all goes well.

Oh, and your comment about your poodles being smarter than you, I think we all might agree that most poodles ARE smarter than humans..welcome to the club!


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## Wingsinmoonlight (Jan 21, 2014)

thanks for all the great ideas. 

I dug out some kongs to try-
Bert+ kong= fine with no Ernie 
But....Bert also is quite aggressive about them. He gathered up all 4 kongs from all the dogs and sat growling on the pile.- so I think we will have to be separated when the kongs come out. 

I was able to bring Ernie in the bedroom while Bert had a kong, and Ernie sat with me and Butter (girl pug mix). He is still too shy to come up by my hands or face except for treats, but he will take treats from me, and sit in the bed by my feet.

I'm looking into getting into obedience, and I want to take them out to the local dog park/ agility course.

I do free feed- tried meal times, the "special" pug is probably too stupid for them as well. I love him, I do, we just have to live around his IQ.

Bert seems to be reaching out more to me, which is good. He wants to be friends I think. Ernie is still a tough egg.

I have been waiting for the temps to go up a little, then we will try walks separated as well, rather than just outside in the yard.

I'm newly divorced- this would have been easier with more than one person. 

Funny thing, they were VERY upset by my macaw the first week. She talks, and they were SURE there was a person hiding someplace. They still bark at her. 

The marking seems to be better with the belly bands. I had to shave them down pretty close ( I have horses and only had a 10 blade.)- the belly bands were making them tangle. 

Both have some itchies, which I;m hoping will improve on the grain free food they get now.


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

Glad things are better. 

My 2 girls are a year old now. They are litter mates as well. Long story, but their mom died in an accident and they were bottle fed from 3-6 weeks old. I got them at 6 weeks of age. They cannot be separated and go nuts if they aren't together. They love each other so much. 


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## PoodleFoster (May 25, 2013)

Wingsinmoonlight said:


> Bert seems to be reaching out more to me, which is good. He wants to be friends I think. Ernie is still a tough egg.
> 
> Hello
> Such positives in your post. GREAT JOB! Working with these rescues is challenging. A lot of the effort is trial and error.
> ...


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Wingsinmoonlight said:


> thanks for all the great ideas.
> 
> I dug out some kongs to try-
> Bert+ kong= fine with no Ernie
> But....Bert also is quite aggressive about them. He gathered up all 4 kongs from all the dogs and sat growling on the pile.- so I think we will have to be separated when the kongs come out.


thanks for keeping us updated. i had to giggle when i read the above. it appears that bert's real problem is that he has king kong syndrome! maybe one of those treat dispensers shaped like a ball will help. it's really hard to gather up and sit on one, let alone several.

ernie will come out of his shell with you working at it. though he may never be mr. carefree. some dogs are like that - mine included. he'll skip around for dinner, but otherwise is a quiet guy who prefers the security and comforts of home.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Maybe Bert thinks he can hatch the kongs? 
I giggled over the 'King Kong Syndrome' lol


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Were these guys neutered as older dogs? The reason I'm asking is that my intact male dogs never emptied their bladders the first time they lifted their legs. They always held back some marking fluid in case they found something else needing labeling while we were out. Sigh. I had to take them on a walk and let them hit half a dozen bushes before I could trust them to be safely empty. My current dogs were neutered at a bit over six months and will usually drain themselves with the first leg lift.


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## Wingsinmoonlight (Jan 21, 2014)

I'm not sure when they were neutered- I didn't get much history from before they were surrendered. That is a good thought- It's been SO cold that they have barely been out at all. I;m also looking into a dog door as a possible help. 

I like the idea of bert hatching eggs lol. He even takes the round purple food dispensing ball- I have no idea how he manages to pick it up, its bigger than his head.

All four slept in the bed last night, which worked fairly well. Ernie still had to be on the farthest corner from me, but he jumped up into bed on his own. 

Bert has decided he wants attention at least at bedtime. He puts his paw on my hand asking me to pet. It;s pretty cute. Everything he does is very soft and hesitant, but not fearful like Ernie. He even dared to kiss my cheek yesterday fro the first time.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Doesn't it just make you melt when the little timid ones ask for love so gently? 

*sigh*


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It sounds as if they are both making steady progress - it is still early days, after all. I suspect in a couple of months you will look back on this thread and be amazed at how far they have come.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

It does sound like they are making progress! Trust is a big deal with poodles, and with patience and guidance they will soon learn that your way is the right way! Good job!


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## Ellyisme (Jul 17, 2012)

Completely off topic.....but......Oh my gosh! I had that exact puppy surprise doll when I was younger!


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## Wingsinmoonlight (Jan 21, 2014)

Ellyisme said:


> Completely off topic.....but......Oh my gosh! I had that exact puppy surprise doll when I was younger!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Lol, I sell vintage toys, and the dogs are always sneaking into the buckets. I sell under yesterday's child at conventions and at http://rememberswhen.uson ebay.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Things will get better and better, I'm sure. It already sounds like things are moving in the right direction.


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## Maggie B (Jul 8, 2013)

Ellyisme said:


> Completely off topic.....but......Oh my gosh! I had that exact puppy surprise doll when I was younger!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh my! I had a puppy surprise and a kitty surprise when I was young. I remember my dog had the coveted 5 puppies but the cat only had three kittens! The dog was pink, I think the same as the one in the picture, I can't remember what color the cat was. Good eye, I didn't even notice it!


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## Wingsinmoonlight (Jan 21, 2014)

Yesterday my grooming arm came in the mail, and bert got another nail trim.

Last night I let the boys in the bedroom (most nights only my girl pug mix sleeps with me). Bert comes up the stairs into bed but ernie is too scared to climb up that close to me, so he was trying to jump up and missing and whining. I went and got him, and picked him up. I put him in the bed and laid back down. He was on HIGH ALERT and very tense, in the far corner of the bed, so I wasn't too surprised to hear someone jump down and go back out to sleep on the couch. I tried calling him a couple times, but he didn;t come back in.

I turned on my cell phone light, and then I saw..Ernie, curled up quite happily on the bed with the pugs...it was BERT who ran off. They were both quite happy apart, and I was very proud of Ernie for staying in the bed.


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## PoodleFoster (May 25, 2013)

hello
what a great post! I'm so glad that the poodles are warming up. It takes time and patience on everyone's part!
Great story, and I hope to read many more!


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## Wingsinmoonlight (Jan 21, 2014)

yeah....this was always going to happen.....


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Tickled purple to see that!!*


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## Dallasminis (Feb 6, 2011)

Precious story, love the purple! Love reading about every little baby step they are taking...I think they are as good for you now as you are for them.....I'm so glad you found each other...kudos to you for taking them in...and bless your little pug mix!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Wingsinmoonlight said:


> yeah....this was always going to happen.....


those ears say "i am cool" but those eyes say, "omg, mom, i can't believe you did this to me!" :laugh:


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

OMG! I LOVE THE PURPLE EARS!!!!!!!!!!!! They actually highlight that beautiful face!!!!!
Sounds like everything is starting to go really well for those cuties!


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