# Vaccines - What's truly necessary?



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Can your vet provide any statistics for infection rates for city dogs? What are the chances of you going to visit greener areas outside the city? I get my dogs both the Lyme and lepto shots, but I live in an area where both are endemic. Lyme disease was named after Lyme, Connecticut. I imagine there aren't a lot of ticks in Manhattan itself, but you are quite close to areas with high rates of infection.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

My vet had her dog almost die from lepto contracted in her own backyard. She is very against unnecessary vaccines but lepto is one she does advise for dogs that are prone to drinking from puddles and will eat animal feces. I would see if lepto is common in your area and assess the risk for your dog based on behavior. I believe 75% of cases are inconsequential but 25% can be life threatening. And it is not so easy to catch as evidenced by my own vet.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Vaccine for Bordatella? 
Absolutely NOT... until you know the actual strain of Bordatella (Kennel Cough) that's common in your area.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I wouldn't do Lepto on a toy, I live in the Hudson valley and do Lyme vaccines, I have have a cat die from Lyme disease within a week of being bit by a tick, it was under her collar she wasn't an outdoor cat but got out for several days.

There are vets that push vaccines, my vet is very liberal and has a holistic side of the business, so when I tell them I am a minimalist when it comes to vaccines, we had a discussion on what I would be giving my pets.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

As for Cancer, well we find what we look for. I have a seven year toy who has cancer almost 2 years now, do I blame food, vaccines, and the like no but I do however blame genetics and poor breeding practices.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

The question my vet asks to assess lepto risk is 'does your dog ever drink from puddles'.

Also, lepto is communicable to humans and I'm immunesuppressed.

Annie and Trixie both get Lepto, with ticks moving into the area Annie gets Lyme and Trixie probably will as well this year. A friend's dog got Lyme and now has seizures.

Bordatella is mandatory here for classes and kennelling. I don't think it is particularly useful, as Annie still caught it.


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## MMM18 (Sep 29, 2020)

cowpony said:


> Can your vet provide any statistics for infection rates for city dogs? What are the chances of you going to visit greener areas outside the city? I get my dogs both the Lyme and lepto shots, but I live in an area where both are endemic. Lyme disease was named after Lyme, Connecticut. I imagine there aren't a lot of ticks in Manhattan itself, but you are quite close to areas with high rates of infection.


I will ask. the NYC department of Health's website states 10-20 cases per year in NYC, with the majority in Manhattan (we live in Brooklyn). However, I've run across several news articles about lepto outbreaks on the UWS of Manhattan and in Central Park and a few reports from a dog park in Brooklyn. So, I'm not sure if those numbers on the health website are outdated.

Although, he will mostly be in NYC where we don't have many ticks, we will occasionally be out on LI (not in wooded areas) although I know all of LI has a lot of ticks. I haven't decided on a flea/tick medicine yet but wouldn't that typically protect against Lyme?


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## MMM18 (Sep 29, 2020)

twyla said:


> I wouldn't do Lepto on a toy, I live in the Hudson valley and do Lyme vaccines, I have have a cat die from Lyme disease within a week of being bit by a tick, it was under her collar she wasn't an outdoor cat but got out for several days.
> 
> There are vets that push vaccines, my vet is very liberal and has a holistic side of the business, so when I tell them I am a minimalist when it comes to vaccines, we had a discussion on what I would be giving my pets.


I'm so sorry about your cat. I didn't realize Lyme could be fatal (I knew it could cause chronic health issues). I may also look into seeing a holistic vet, as well.


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## MMM18 (Sep 29, 2020)

twyla said:


> As for Cancer, well we find what we look for. I have a seven year toy who has cancer almost 2 years now, do I blame food, vaccines, and the like no but I do however blame genetics and poor breeding practices.


Yes, I know genetics and breeding is also probably mostly to blame, which is why with my current toy, I made sure that he came from very good lines. I didn't know the history of my prior toy and he ended up with a lot of health issues. However, I also don't want to ruin this guy's good genes by giving him unnecessary toxins. So, I've been trying to control whatever I can.


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## MMM18 (Sep 29, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> The question my vet asks to assess lepto risk is 'does your dog ever drink from puddles'.
> 
> Also, lepto is communicable to humans and I'm immunesuppressed.
> 
> ...


My puppy hasn't been outside yet (still needs another round of puppy vaccines) so I can't assess yet whether or not he's a puddle drinker. But you raise a good point about being immunosuppressed. I am too so that's something I also need to think about. Are Annie and Trixie toys, miniatures, or standards?


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

MMM18 said:


> My puppy hasn't been outside yet (still needs another round of puppy vaccines) so I can't assess yet whether or not he's a puddle drinker. But you raise a good point about being immunosuppressed. I am too so that's something I also need to think about. Are Annie and Trixie toys, miniatures, or standards?


Annie is a standard, Trixie is a toy breed (Yorkie).

My vet was ok with spacing vaccinations out so I wasn't giving all on the same day. I did that with Lyme, for example, and started it after all the puppy vaccines. Trixie reacts to one vaccine in particular so tends to get it on a different visit. My vet also likes to give benadryl when she gives multiple vaccines. This might be an option for you.

You also asked about Lyme disease and flea and tick meds- I do both. The flea and tick meds tend to taper off in strength towards the end of the month, and need more time to kill the tick. Ticks can transmit Lyme within about 24 hours. The friends dog who caught Lyme was on flea and tick meds but not vaccinated. He got something like 30 ticks in a weekend, most still crawling, some of which had bit. My dogs and I are higher risk since I like to hike, but I have even had ticks in our backyard! Apparently mice can harbour them.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I have them give Benadryl with any vaccine on my littles, one of the had a mild reaction to vaccines and the other Len I was told by his breeder to do this.
I used to shave my dogs short when I lived in the woods for easy quick inspection after a walk.
I just shaved my dogs short because I already notice it is a bad tick season, my dogs have had ticks crawling on them after a walk around my complex. I normally just get the Lyme vaccine and don't do flea and tick meds on my toys. I've had to pick up topical this year, so yowza.


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## Yellow (Sep 24, 2018)

If you do decide to get lepto and lyme space them out.. Titer testing is the way to go so dogs are not over vaccinated.


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## MMM18 (Sep 29, 2020)

As far as spacing out vaccines, there is apparently a combo that includes distemper, parvo and lepto that my vet suggested. My pup still needs his final distemper/parvo. Is that not a good idea? Should lepto be given separately? The suggested plan was distemper/parvo/lepto and bordetella then 2 weeks later rabies then 2 weeks later lepto booster and then potentially lyme two weeks after that.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

With my toys , I have have always done two to three weeks in between vaccines, with Leonard my smallest I started doing 3 week intervals on vaccines, no doubling up or stacking vaccines.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

All of the above!!

Most vets are going to suggest the vaccine protocols developed by the AAHA (American Animal Hospital Association).

Vets who are working for larger corporations will be (probably) required to suggest (strongly) all Core and relevant Noncore vaccines. They may still work with pet owners wanting a minimum vaccination protocol, if they can.

Vets still working privately may be more open to following a minimum protocol and using titers.

Core vaccines are just what they sound like. They shouldn't be skipped without a medical reason.

Noncore vaccines are discretionary, in the sense of "are they needed in my area or areas I'll travel to, does my dog engage in risky behaviors in risky environments, does the groomer, daycare, boarding kennel require them..."

AAHA Guidelines as of 2017
Vaccination recommendations for general practice (aaha.org)
(expand all for full info)

This is a temporary, updated version due to Covid restrictions





Interim clinical considerations for North American companion-animal vaccination practice during the COVID-19 pandemic


In the face of the global coronavirus pandemic, and as emphasis on social distancing and sheltering-in-place continue to limit client and patient...




www.aaha.org





There is another choice of vaccination protocols. 
Dr Jean Dodds has been instrumental in developing a minimum vaccination protocol and in using titers rather than potentially unnecessary revaccination, core vaccines excepted I think.
Dr. Jean Dodds – Dog Vaccine Protocol « Animal Health Foundation Blog

Titer also has some limitations per the AAHA
Antibody testing for vaccine-preventable diseases (aaha.org)

Whichever vaccines you decide to go with based on assessed risk, space them out, give as few combo vaccines as you can get the vet to agree with, give mitigating meds like Benadryl with vet's cooperation, and titer for distemper, parvo, and adenovirus.


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## MMM18 (Sep 29, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> All of the above!!
> 
> Most vets are going to suggest the vaccine protocols developed by the AAHA (American Animal Hospital Association).
> 
> ...


Thanks. The vet we see works for a large hospital that is part of the AAHA, so, perhaps that's why. At this point of the non-core vaccines, I think we'll just do bordetella because the groomers require it. I don't think I'm going to do the Lyme vaccine. He'll be on a flea and tick preventative and we are in NYC where I don't feel there are many deer tickets (at least not compared to LI and upstate NY) and I don't plan to bring him in wooded areas. I'm still conflicted over lepto. I've heard so many bad things about the vaccine especially for poodles and toy breeds but I've also heard horror stories about dogs dying very quickly from the disease. I think I will ask the vet more about the actual risk in our area. It was never suggested for my prior dog who lived the same lifestyle (although perhaps it has become a risk only recently). I was just told with him to avoid letting him drink out of puddles and don't take him to the ponds/lakes at NYC parks. From what I can see online from news clippings, it seems like there was an uptick in cases in Manhattan in 2017 but I haven't seen anything more recent.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I have used the same Vet for over 20 years now, and he is in a private practice. I trust him completely with the health of my dogs. He keeps current with all the changing protocols and I give my dogs whatever vaccination he suggests.


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## MMM18 (Sep 29, 2020)

Mufar42 said:


> I have used the same Vet for over 20 years now, and he is in a private practice. I trust him completely with the health of my dogs. He keeps current with all the changing protocols and I give my dogs whatever vaccination he suggests.


That's great that you have someone you can trust. I've had the same vet for the past 12 years and I do think she's good. But I question everyone including my own medical doctors.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I really like my vet because she is always trying to be current on the latest research. She will also send me research papers on things if needed. If I mention a study she doesn't know, she will immediately look at it. It is this desire to be most informed that makes me trust her, along with her conservative approach. She always tries to do the minimal amount of treatment needed and avoid excess vaccine or anesthesia.

I do find that many people trust vets that I wouldn't trust. I think it is always good to question things, and a good vet will be able to tell you their interpretation of research. I've had old school vets in the past that just do things as they've done for decades without considering new research, and I don't care for that.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I am concerned about Lepto. Someone here said very few strains are covered in the vaccine? My neighbor feeds the pigeons, and squirrels and chippies, so I am sure there is a lot of their pee and poo, worked right into the soil.

What are the symptoms? My Spoo has been ill for several months and the vets can't figure out what it is. Is there a for sure Lepto test that covers all of the strains?


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## Jbean (Feb 18, 2019)

MMM18 said:


> Yes, I know genetics and breeding is also probably mostly to blame, which is why with my current toy, I made sure that he came from very good lines. I didn't know the history of my prior toy and he ended up with a lot of health issues. However, I also don't want to ruin this guy's good genes by giving him unnecessary toxins. So, I've been trying to control whatever I can.


Vaccines aren't toxins. They're a miracle. The risks of serious complications from vaccines are minuscule.









Adverse consequences of vaccination


The importance of adverse effects from vaccination must not be overstated. Vaccine benefits greatly exceed any risks from the procedure. Neither must they be minimized. Unnecessary vaccination must be discouraged. Hypersensitivity reactions to vaccine ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

kontiki said:


> I am concerned about Lepto. Someone here said very few strains are covered in the vaccine? My neighbor feeds the pigeons, and squirrels and chippies, so I am sure there is a lot of their pee and poo, worked right into the soil.
> 
> What are the symptoms? My Spoo has been ill for several months and the vets can't figure out what it is. Is there a for sure Lepto test that covers all of the strains?


This lists the strains covered by the vaccine (from AAHA). 

*Leptospira*

*NONCORE Vaccines*Leptospira
(killed) 4-serovar
*serovar canicola;
serovar icterohaemorrhagiae;
serovar grippotyphosa;
serovar *_*pomona*_
Administer by the SQ route.*Initial Vaccination
(Dogs ≤16 Wk of Age)*Two initial doses, 2 to 4 wk apart., are required; the initial dose may be administered as early as 8 to 9 wk of age.*Initial Vaccination
(Dogs >16 Wk of Age)*Two initial doses, 2 to 4 wk apart, are required regardless of the dog’s age.*Revaccination
(Booster)*Where risk of exposure is sustained, administer a single dose 1 yr following completion of the initial 2 doses, then annually thereafter.*Remarks*Because there is limited cross-protection among serovars in the vaccine, administration of a 4-serovar leptospirosis vaccine is recommended over a 2-serovar vaccine.
4-serovar leptospirosis vaccines are available in combination with CORE vaccines and as a 4-serovar (only) product that is not combined with other vaccines.
For recommendations on managing dogs who are overdue for this vaccine, click here.

There's more detail here, from Leptospira Interrogans Serovar Pomona - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics :
*Leptospirosis*
_Leptospira_ spp., including _Leptospira icterohaemorrhagiae_, the causative agent of Weill disease, _Leptospira pomona_, _Leptospira bataviae_, _Leptospira canicola_, _Leptospira shermani_, and _Leptospira grippotyphosa,_ are long, thin aerobic spirochetes that can be responsible for human infection. Patients typically present with jaundice, renal dysfunction, or even acute renal failure. Leptospira are typically considered to be enzootic diseases with reservoirs in skunks, foxes, rodents, livestock, and ducks. The organism is present in the urine of these animals, and humans are infected through direct contact or via contaminated water. In Weill disease the kidneys are enlarged, edematous, and brownish yellow. Histologically, there is prominent acute tubular injury and necrosis with a mixed inflammatory infiltrate of monocytes, plasma cells, and neutrophils with petechial hemorrhages and vasculitis. A special stain that is sometimes used is the Levaditi stain, which is a special silver nitrate stain, although it requires special expertise.77,78,161


I think that the symptoms are pretty similar regardless of the strain. It seems likely that your vets will have checked for a condition that vaccines have been developed for. 

I'm sorry to hear that Tiki isn't feeling well. I sure hope this resolves soon, for both your sakes.


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## MMM18 (Sep 29, 2020)

Jbean said:


> Vaccines aren't toxins. They're a miracle. The risks of serious complications from vaccines are minuscule.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are different regulations for people versus animals. If children were experiencing these kind of side effects from a vaccine, you can bet it would be pulled from the market. I'm not anti-vaccination by any means but I've seen many horror stories about the leptospirosis vaccine. In addition, the lepto vaccine has a low efficacy rate (several dogs that have died from lepto were vaccinated against it), it protects against only 4 of 60 strains, and is short lasting. All medicines/vaccines/etc. may cause side effects - I'm very aware of that fact. However, it's a risks/benefits analysis. Here it seems the benefits may not outweigh the risks.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

MMM18 said:


> However, it's a risks/benefits analysis. Here it seems the benefits may not outweigh the risks.


I agree, sometimes we are subject to blanket advice that doesn't meet our individualized concerns. Luckily these aren't one-time decisions. You can continue to read and learn before deciding -- and then change your mind if/when new evidence and new medicine comes to light.

It sounds like you've done a lot of research already and are aware of the risks and benefits. I don't know if anyone can provide the certainty that you're after.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

A quick read and very helpful info here. 









Leptospirosis in Dogs - Generalized Conditions - Merck Veterinary Manual


Learn about the veterinary topic of Leptospirosis in Dogs. Find specific details on this topic and related topics from the Merck Vet Manual.




www.merckvetmanual.com


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

My vet doesn't recommend Lyme vaccines unless you are gong to be going to be traveling with your dog to areas with a heavy Lyme Disease problem, but does do Lepto, since it's pretty common down here. They also require a canine flu shot for boarding.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Just pulled a tick off of my Spoos head with a tiny bit of his scalp attached! Arrgh. Probably should search for more.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

kontiki said:


> Just pulled a tick off of my Spoos head with a tiny bit of his scalp attached! Arrgh. Probably should search for more.


Uggh!


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