# Small standard poodles -- new web site



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I have recently started a new web site, and I’d like to invite you to participate in making it a success. Regular forum members will recognize Outwest’s Bonnie and Arreau’s Quincy and my Cammie on the home page. The new site is: Small Standard Poodles

The purpose of the web site is: (1) to encourage the responsible breeding of small standard poodles, (2) to help puppy buyers find well bred small standard poodles, (3) to help breeders find studs, (4) to provide information/education on a variety of related topics, (5) to develop a community of people who are interested in the responsible breeding of small standard poodles, and (6) to have fun (I find this stuff entertaining).

The purpose of this site is NOT to make money. I do not expect to ever make a penny from it.

The site is currently in its infancy. It might end up fizzling into nothing, but I think it has the potential to develop in a number of interesting ways. I’d love to have your input and I’d love to see a community of interested poodle breeders and poodle owners develop who can bring the breeding of small standard poodles to new levels of excellence.

Some of the issues that I am interested in exploring, hopefully with input from some of you:

-- My understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) is that in countries that accept the Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) poodle sizes, including the moyen/klein size, the poodle is viewed more as a single breed with a continuum of sizes that range from toys to minis to mediums (moyens/kleins) to standards. Poodles of one size can be bred to poodles of another size but the two parents should not be more than 10 cm. apart in size (that’s about 4 inches). In the US and Canada, the moyen size is not accepted by AKC and poodles between 15 inches and about 20 inches have historically not been bred. With renewed interest in the moyen/klein size, that may be changing now. I like the idea of purposefully breeding this size and having poodles of all sizes in the US and Canada. What do you think?

-- Given that smaller standard poodles are not succeeding in the AKC show ring, are there other ways that the quality of a small spoo and its suitability for breeding can be demonstrated?

-- What are the pros and cons of each of the different ways that small spoos can be bred (oversized minis, small standards, imported moyens/kleins, mini-standard crosses).

I’d also like feedback on some of the material that is already presented on the site, and ideas for new material. Please feel free to make suggestions here, or PM them to me.

Finally, we will be adding studs and/or litter announcements to the site slowly and carefully. The two stud dogs that are currently listed belong to small scale breeders for whom I have the utmost respect. Cherie Perks of Arreau Standard Poodles and Michelle Birchard of New Destiny Standard Poodles are two of the very best, and I would like to maintain this high standard.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I love it, and thank you so much for all of your hard work putting it together, and for inviting Quincy and I to take part! Much appreciated!!


----------



## Newbie (Apr 10, 2012)

I just checked out the new website. I really like it. I hope it gains traction and grows.
Your comments on how difficult it was to find a small standard poodle reflect my own current search.


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Great site, good luck!

I wouldnt show a std, but maybe if it were a small std lol.


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

If your size range is 15-23 inches, you might consider adding "Big Minis," too. My boy Beau is 16.5", and I know there are others on the forum that top out at 17" and maybe bigger.

Either way the site is a great idea, as poodles in this Goldilocks size range are "just right" for many families, but are not easy to find.


----------



## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Good site and good luck!


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

LEUllman said:


> If your size range is 15-23 inches, you might consider adding "Big Minis," too. My boy Beau is 16.5", and I know there are others on the forum that top out at 17" and maybe bigger.
> 
> Either way the site is a great idea, as poodles in this Goldilocks size range are "just right" for many families, but are not easy to find.


When I first thought about starting the site, I was really thinking about small standards in the 18 to 22 inch range, because that's what I wanted for my own pup. But I corresponded with a forum member who suggested that 15 inches should be the lower limit. I agreed because a standard is defined by AKC as above 15 inches. 

I would like to see more credibility given to purposefully breeding minis up in size (breed a 17 inch mini to a 16.5 inche mini) as well as breeding standards down in size. 

I'll see if I can work something about big minis into the site. Great suggestion!


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

peppersb said:


> -- Given that smaller standard poodles are not succeeding in the AKC show ring, are there other ways that the quality of a small spoo and its suitability for breeding can be demonstrated?


Oh, so you've tried? Please tell me about your experience showing a smaller standard in the AKC. Enzo, Kandice and Kerry's red boy, is 23 inches and just got a major.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

peppersb said:


> -- Given that smaller standard poodles are not succeeding in the AKC show ring, are there other ways that the quality of a small spoo and its suitability for breeding can be demonstrated?


Please elaborate? This is a broad statement that really is not true the way you stated it. Many "smaller standard poodles" (whatever that means) enjoy great success in the show ring.

And, since the can of worms is open I'll ask, is breeding for size any better than breeding for color?


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Oh, so you've tried? Please tell me about your experience showing a smaller standard in the AKC. Enzo, Kandice and Kerry's red boy, is 23 inches and just got a major.


Hi Fluffyspoo and CM -- I am not surprised to hear that a 23 inch standard got a major. I'm sorry if I wasn't specific enough. I would like to see poodles of 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 inches, as well as 22-23 inches. My perception is that those sizes are not being bred because they cannot win in AKC shows even though they are very clearly within the size specified for a standard poodle by the AKC breed standard. Do you disagree with that?

For the record, I have never shown a poodle of any size. I certainly did not mean to imply that I had.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

peppersb said:


> Hi Fluffyspoo and CM -- I am not surprised to hear that a 23 inch standard got a major. I'm sorry if I wasn't specific enough. I would like to see poodles of 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 inches, as well as 22-23 inches. My perception is that those sizes are not being bred because they cannot win in AKC shows even though they are very clearly within the size specified for a standard poodle by the AKC breed standard. Do you disagree with that?
> 
> For the record, I have never shown a poodle of any size. I certainly did not mean to imply that I had.


I partially disagree. I know plenty of breeders and owners who show, title, and breed poodles 20 inches and up. 

When it comes to under 20 inches, I really haven't heard of many except for the few breeders who claim to be breeding Moyens/Kleins in the US/Canada even though these sizes don't exist here by that name. I like that your website refers to them as "small standard poodles" rather than the Klein/Moyen.


----------



## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

*Kleins*

I have a litter of cream and apricot and 2 of the pups will be small most likely under 21 inches. This is a standard breeding, the bitch is a German import 25 inches ( in Germany the top height is 25 inches) and the sire 25 inches, had a smaller Dam and Sire both were under 22 inches. Smaller size standards can happen in any litter. Most Standards of today have mini in the 6th generation or further back. It is possible to pull a smaller size from WAY back in the pedigree. They were not bred for size but for diversity. Wycliffe is 35 % which is headed in the right direction and Sire tested MHC/DLA as heterozygous. 
I agree CC, breeding for any one trait can be disastrous for the gene pool. :amen:


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am sincerely thrilled about Enzos major and their accomplishment with him. because it is a huge accomplishment for any owner handler, and it is good for reds in general. But, how many times was he shown before this happened. How many shows did he attend before it all fell into place. It was not easy. Whether is was because he is red or because he is relatively small, who knows. But it was not easy.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Enzo, Kandice and Kerry's red boy, is 23 inches and just got a major.


Michelle Birchard of New Destiny Poodles is pictured with her 23 inch silver boy on the home page of smallstandardpoodles.com. He has also gotten a major--2 majors in fact--and he is an AKC and UKC champion. Michelle told me that he was one of the smallest dogs in the ring when he was being shown.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Apres Argent said:


> I agree CC, breeding for any one trait can be disastrous for the gene pool. :amen:


Interesting point. It would seem that the problem for the gene pool would arise if there are just not enough sires and dams around that have the trait that you are looking for without inbreeding. Is that right? I certainly think that breeding close relatives is not a good idea. I also have serious questions about breeding a 16 inch mini to a 23 inch standard (I've seen photos of some of the results of this kind of breeding). But the issue that I would like to explore (I'm looking for answers, not claiming to have all the answers) is whether there are in fact enough diversity out there to produce poodles that are 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 inches tall without inbreeding and with no high COIs. The fact that there are numerous poodles of this size in other countries, and that we have oversized minis of 16 or 17 inches as well as standards in the 20-23 inch range makes me think that there is enough diversity in the gene pool to do this without inbreeding. I'm interested in your thoughts about this.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am sincerely thrilled about Enzos major and their accomplishment with him. because it is a huge accomplishment for any owner handler, and it is good for reds in general. But, how many times was he shown before this happened. How many shows did he attend before it all fell into place. It was not easy. Whether is was because he is red or because he is relatively small, who knows. But it was not easy.


He actually hasn't been to many shows, and most of those that he did go to he didn't have a lot of coat (he's just getting there now). He's been owner handled and getting points, so it had nothing to do with his size or his color.

Red dogs do finish in AKC, regardless of size, NOLA is proof of that  Enzo's success is proof of that. It's just getting out and doing it.

I spoke to Laurel Berg while watching her do a spray up (man she is amazing!), who said her first poodle she showed over 70 times and never finished him before she figured out what she was doing.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I look forward to one day importing a Klein, a bred and born Klein to breed to a smaller Standard. I would not personally entertain the idea of breeding a mini to a standard because of the risk of the mini legs-standard bodies they produced when creating the red standards. I do thoroughly understand why some do it, but it is not for me. But a true Klein...some of them are just glorious. I think the result might be amazing. What do others think...


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Thank you for including Bonnie on your site. I love how your cover page turned out.  

As to Kleins- my breeder imported a true Klein as a sire for her small standard poodle line and he is gorgeous. My sister in law got one of her small standard poodles and he is 17 inches at the shoulder- a wonderful size (and yes, she calls them small standard poodles). 

Bonnie is from her standard poodle line, but is 22 inches at the shoulder and looks a lot smaller than most standards I see, but I love her size. 

I don't think only breeding for size is right, either, but I do think smaller standards deserve a place in the world of poodles in the US and Canada. After all, a standard poodle is anything over 15 inches tall according to their breed standard.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I must have missed something. I did not see anyone say they were breeding just for small sized Spoos. We will have some average sized Spoos, but we are fairly certain we have some smaller Spoos when we use Quincy and that is just more cool and interesting thing we look forward to.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

You're right, no one mentioned breeding specifically for smaller standard poodles. There is a big difference between an 18 inch standard and a 26 inch standard, obviously. The 18 incher should have a place especially since it is to the standard for size. Unfortunately, they are not shown in AKC. 

It is quite common for smaller standard poodles to be part of an average sized litter. If I bred Bonnie to an average sized poodle, I would expect there to be a few smaller standards in the litter. If she was bred to a smaller standard then most of the puppies would be smaller, too.


----------



## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

outwest said:


> You're right, no one mentioned breeding specifically for smaller standard poodles. There is a big difference between an 18 inch standard and a 26 inch standard, obviously. The 18 incher should have a place especially since it is to the standard for size. Unfortunately, they are not shown in AKC.
> 
> It is quite common for smaller standard poodles to be part of an average sized litter. If I bred Bonnie to an average sized poodle, I would expect there to be a few smaller standards in the litter. If she was bred to a smaller standard then most of the puppies would be smaller, too.


First of all I must say you have created a very well done website with lovely photos. But I am having a hard time understanding the point of it. It is like Outwest stated and I believe Arreau before her, just because you are breeding smaller standards you cannot guarantee that all the pups will be smaller. Doesn't It all depend on the size of all the poodles in the pedigree?

Even with Toys or Minis you still get oversized ones.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I was careful when asked for a picture of my dog. Bonnie's coowner/breeder inquired and asked questions, too. It is a great site in it's infancy. It is useful to know what people think about it. 

Did you read this? It explains her point. 
About Us

It is important for people who would like a smaller standard to know there are some out there that are nicely bred, with health and temperament testing who look like what a standard should look like. Some people in the 'over 23 inch and nothing else is right' group may not like it, but they may not like partis or reds or blacks, either. It could be useful to people who's lines have gotten too big and are looking for a sire to bring the size down, but don't want to jeopardize type. 
There are lots of reasons this is a useful site. Right now if you google for a smaller standard, almost all you get is a bunch of people cranking out poor representations of poodles. Try it. 

In my opinion, there is a place for a website like this.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Outwest, I think what people are saying is...if you are going to advertise stud dogs as having the capability to produce small offspring, shouldn't this be proven? Just because a dog is small does not mean they will produce small offspring. This is what a lot of people are saying. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here as you did ask for advice on the website. I do think that one possible reaction you might get from someone perusing your website is, "hmm, okay?" I think you would in fact have a bit more, well, of a point if the three poodles were proven producers of smaller offspring. For all you know, you could breed Bonnie, Quincy, or the silver dog and get a litter full of puppies that grow to be 25 inches!

Otherwise, you just have a website essentially saying "hi! we have small poodles." And I say, "Kewl." I like them 21-25 inches tall, personally. 

And I agree, the website itself was designed very well. Easy to navigate and very well written text.


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Nice website! I know there's a lot of debate swirling around with the "smaller standard" issue, but there have been a lot of members asking about them, so why not create a place they can get the info easily? The more knowledge, the better for research. Heck, maybe even the ones who were set on a smaller will end up wanting a poodle 25" and over. Or, be certain that a smaller standard is the one for them.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Outwest, I think what people are saying is...if you are going to advertise stud dogs as having the capability to produce small offspring, shouldn't this be proven? Just because a dog is small does not mean they will produce small offspring. This is what a lot of people are saying. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here as you did ask for advice on the website. I do think that one possible reaction you might get from someone perusing your website is, "hmm, okay?" I think you would in fact have a bit more, well, of a point if the three poodles were proven producers of smaller offspring. For all you know, you could breed Bonnie, Quincy, or the silver dog and get a litter full of puppies that grow to be 25 inches!
> 
> Otherwise, you just have a website essentially saying "hi! we have small poodles." And I say, "Kewl." I like them 21-25 inches tall, personally.
> 
> And I agree, the website itself was designed very well. Easy to navigate and very well written text.


CM, you are quite mistaken. This is not my website. I agreed to have Bonnie's picture as a representative of a smaller standard poodle because I thought it was a great idea plus the person doing it has her heart and ideas all in the right place. A lot of research and effort was put into making it a nice website for people who are interested to visit and learn from. 

Anyone who breeds dogs knows if you want an idea of eventual size look to the parents for an idea. There will be outliers in every litter, but the majority of pups will be along the lines of the sire and dam.


----------



## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

I want to thank the people who are putting this website together.

I'm not sure why people think that over 15 inches means that an additional 10 inches was ok, or what the breed historically was intended to be. What it really means was a flashy coated dog for breed shows who would catch the judge's eye.

My personal opinion (which is just that, personal opinion) is that a standard should be closer to 15-22 inches max, with plenty of agility, structure, an intense solid retrieve, bird instinct, biddable training instinct and a happy poodle personality. If I was to breed standard poodles, that would be my aim. Since I'm not, I will try to find breeders who at least somewhat agree with my personal opinion. Luckily this is a big world with plenty of room for both extremes of thought.

Websites such as this, educate the public, which is never a bad thing. When I started looking at poodles, people first said 'but they're so big!' I ended up with a mini, but have continued to research standards, and keep emphasizing they all don't have to be big to my family, this website helps me prove my point .


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> CM, you are quite mistaken. This is not my website. I agreed to have Bonnie's picture as a representative of a smaller standard poodle because I thought it was a great idea plus the person doing it has her heart and ideas all in the right place. A lot of research and effort was put into making it a nice website for people who are interested to visit


I'm sorry, I know it's not your website Outwest, I didn't mean to imply that. The "you" I included in my post was an "in general" you and then I meant the OP, I misdirected. Got a little too much on my mind.  But regardless of symantics, the point is the same. And I hope I didn't offend as that wasn't my point. Offering critique as was asked.

I certainly wouldn't doubt that the OPs heart was and is in the right place. Like I said before, the text is very well written!


----------



## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Why wouldn't a large mini not be a small spoo? I always thought the size was the differance.


----------



## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

Excellent question, Carley'sMom. I hope this site will address that, too. 

I thought, according to AKC, at least, the same standards apply to all sizes, and it is ONLY the size that categories them. So, with AKC, there are no oversized anythings--they are simply in the next category. 

So, maybe AKC should not allow registration until a pup has grown enough to actually tell what it is....then, no one would have to refer to their dog as oversized, because he would be in the right category? I mean, isn't it like saying a short giant or a tall midget?

Really, please don't think I am criticizing anyone's descriptions, because, due to the way the standards are written; they are totally correct descriptions.

And, I wonder if anyone has waited with their pup, who was born to misclassified parents, then tried to classify correctly had any troubles with registering?


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I look forward to one day importing a Klein, a bred and born Klein to breed to a smaller Standard. I would not personally entertain the idea of breeding a mini to a standard because of the risk of the mini legs-standard bodies they produced when creating the red standards. I do thoroughly understand why some do it, but it is not for me. But a true Klein...some of them are just glorious. I think the result might be amazing. What do others think...


I think it is a fabulous idea. Breeding an imported klein (a born and bred Klein) to a smaller standard sounds like a great way to produce small standard poodles, and it would have the added benefit of bringing genetic diversity into the gene pool in Canada/US. 

As I mentioned before, I read somewhere that poodles that are more than 10 cm (or 4 inches) apart in size should not be bred. That sounds like a very good guideline to me.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

truelovepoodles said:


> ... just because you are breeding smaller standards you cannot guarantee that all the pups will be smaller. Doesn't It all depend on the size of all the poodles in the pedigree?





CharismaticMillie said:


> ...if you are going to advertise stud dogs as having the capability to produce small offspring, shouldn't this be proven? Just because a dog is small does not mean they will produce small offspring.
> This is what a lot of people are saying. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here as you did ask for advice on the website. I do think that one possible reaction you might get from someone perusing your website is, "hmm, okay?" I think you would in fact have a bit more, well, of a point if the three poodles were proven producers of smaller offspring. For all you know, you could breed Bonnie, Quincy, or the silver dog and get a litter full of puppies that grow to be 25 inches!


True Love and CM -- I think you make an excellent point. I don't think any of the dogs pictured on the home page are proven producers of small offspring. But I do think that they'd be more likely to produce small offspring than a 26 inch poodle would be. I'd love to see some proven producers of small offspring. I think it would take several generations of purposefully choosing to breed small standards to get to the point where a breeder could be reasonably sure about the size of the offspring that will be produced. 

Right now, there is a thread from someone in NJ who is looking for a small standard. One of the stated objectives of my site is to help puppy buyers find small standards. I would love to be able to help her, but unfortunately, I don't know of ANY reputable breeders on the east coast who are producing small standards. When I was looking for a pup a year ago, I found two breeders who were breeding small bitches (Cammie's breeder was one of them), but neither of them had any desire to produce smaller spoos, and both were using much larger studs. I'd love to see this change.

I'd also love to see size listed on poodlepedigree.com. It is not easy to research the size of dogs in a pedigree.


----------



## KristaLynn (Mar 22, 2012)

I don't know about showing & breeding but I know that a small standard is the size I would like myself and since I had no idea how to find it I decided it would be safer to just look at mini breeders. An over-sized mini would just be closer to what I wanted!


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I just think that...the poodles posted on the Small poodles website are really just on the small size of average. I don't know how anybody would have any trouble finding a poodle 20 inches and up. I see them literally _all the time_. I think I see that size more than I see dogs Tiger's size.

My show handler is specialing a tiny little bitch. She cant be taller than 21 inches. Carol Brand from Beauvoir has some nice, petite bitches (I think 21 inches tall or so). My brown girl's sire is 24 inches tall and per the breeder he is the very top of his height preference for dogs, much smaller for bitches.

I think that the people who are wanting to find very small standard poodles that are having trouble are probably looking in the 15 inch - 20 inch height range. And neither Bonnie, Quincy, or the silver dog are guaranteed or even necessarily likely to produce such. Hence again, being unsure of the point.


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

What strikes me about this discussion is that there is clearly plenty of demand in the marketplace for small standards/big minis. And why not -- we all seem to agree that this is a great size for many families. In Europe this demand is officially addressed by the moyen/klein category. Here in the States, it is catch as catch can. Sure seems to me that we need an officially sanctioned forth size!


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

peppersb said:


> Hi Fluffyspoo and CM -- I am not surprised to hear that a 23 inch standard got a major. I'm sorry if I wasn't specific enough. I would like to see poodles of 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 inches, as well as 22-23 inches. My perception is that those sizes are not being bred because they cannot win in AKC shows even though they are very clearly within the size specified for a standard poodle by the AKC breed standard. Do you disagree with that?
> 
> For the record, I have never shown a poodle of any size. I certainly did not mean to imply that I had.


I looked up the breed standard and this statement tends to stand out to me the most.
"As long as the Toy Poodle is definitely a Toy Poodle, and the Miniature Poodle a Miniature Poodle, both in balance and proportion for the Variety, diminutiveness shall be the deciding factor when all other points are equal"

I have seen some intervariety breedings like say the Mini toy breeding that some times produce some gorgeous medium -smaller sized minis, and then like the "mini" I saw looked like a beautiful toy.. just oversized. I mean look, movement, etc. So I can see where the definitely a toy or mini statement comes into play. Also for the smaller varieties as long as they are really nice/correct/ typey dogs and look like their variety they have a better chance of winning.. technically. 
There is no such statement for spoos so I can see why there would be no encouragement to breed down


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I wish we had a fourth size here, too. 

Just to clarify: In the US the poodle is a poodle whether toy, miniature or standard. You choose the size yourself, not dependent on what the parents sizes were classified as. A mini can be registered as a standard if it is over 15 inches. In Canada, my understanding is that the sizes are separated, with mini poodles only being able to register offspring as minipoodles. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that is the difference.

I consider my girl a small standard poodle, but you are right, she is recognizable as a standard. Cammie,oin thefront pageof the website, is smaller than Bonnie by an inch or so and would perhaps be more along the lines of a small standard in some peoples minds. The 15-20 inch size is a wonderful size. I do love an average sized standard poodle, don't get me wrong, but after being around my sister in law's near-18 inch Moyen, it is clear this is a wonderful size for many people. 

I prefer the slightly smaller standards as they can be extremely athletic like mine is. Many of the agility poodles are on the smaller standard side, too. There is room in the poodle world for all of them.


----------



## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

As I stated before I think the site is wonderful. I had a lot of emails from people specifically looking for smaller standards when I had my last litter of pups. There were two in the litter that were probably going to be in the small range.

The dam of this litter was 24" and the sire 24.5". But the dam's mom (my Lizette) is only 22.5" and her granddam was very small too!. In the Litter where I was blessed with both Marlisse (24") and Misstarry (22") there was a size difference in the pups.

I think that once there have been consistent breedings of smaller standards and they are consistently only producing the smaller size standard at that point your website will be very helpful. As you stated it is only in its infancy...it is just starting out....and with more and more input and statistical proof of smaller standard breedings it should be very helpful for people wanted smaller standards.

The main point is that you are not just breeding for the small size but also keeping in mind that the dogs have been health tested and have correct structure.


----------



## canil_quindim (Feb 22, 2009)

i´m from Brazil, and here we are under FCI rules

I breed reds and blacks standards poodles, and i like to keep them small in size too

i have imported from united states 4 of my dogs:
one apricot female: size 55cm or 21.7 in
one red male: size 56cm or 22 in
one black female from red breedings: 59cm or 23.2 in
one brown female from red breedings: 61cm or 24 in

puppies from my apricot female and my red male range in size from 21,3 in to 28,7 in

so is hard to say that if you breed to small dogs together you will only have small puppies, in my case it prove itself wrong, i beleave some wil have the same breeding a standard to a moyen poodle, maibe after 2-3 generations you can down size the puppies and the breeding stock


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

canil_quindim said:


> i´m from Brazil, and here we are under FCI rules
> 
> I breed reds and blacks standards poodles, and i like to keep them small in size too
> 
> ...


Others have made the same point in this thread, but your example makes it particularly clear. I have to say that I am surprised that mating of a 21.7 in female with a 22 inch male would produce a pup that grew to 28.7 inches. That's a very big poodle, even by American standards! 

As you have said, purposeful breeding for 2-3 generations (or more) is really needed if a breeder wants to produce a line of small standards that are consistently producing small standards.

Thanks for your contribution.


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

peppersb said:


> I have to say that I am surprised that mating of a 21.7 in female with a 22 inch male would produce a pup that grew to 28.7 inches.


There are some other possible explanations. Being small can come from various environmental as well as genetic factors. An animal can be genetically small, but it might also be smaller (and weaker) as a result of inbreeding depression, or as a result of improper nutrition or other environmental factors while it was growing (conversely, unnaturally large animals can result when factors such as artificial hormones and overfeeding come into play). Runts are sometimes (but not always) smaller than their littermates at adulthood, simply because they are behind the headstart the others got.

Two dogs of the first type should produce offspring of a like sort, two of the second may produce much larger dogs if they are largely unrelated and genetically disparate, and a mating of two of the third will produce dogs that are larger if they receive an optimum environment while they are growing.


----------



## canil_quindim (Feb 22, 2009)

zyrcona said:


> There are some other possible explanations. Being small can come from various environmental as well as genetic factors. An animal can be genetically small, but it might also be smaller (and weaker) as a result of inbreeding depression, or as a result of improper nutrition or other environmental factors while it was growing (conversely, unnaturally large animals can result when factors such as artificial hormones and overfeeding come into play). Runts are sometimes (but not always) smaller than their littermates at adulthood, simply because they are behind the headstart the others got.
> 
> Two dogs of the first type should produce offspring of a like sort, two of the second may produce much larger dogs if they are largely unrelated and genetically disparate, and a mating of two of the third will produce dogs that are larger if they receive an optimum environment while they are growing.


my dog´s have no imbreding, COI of less than 1 %, they are champions, not at all weak!! they had 3 litter together, 33 puppies at total, all live, the females stay on the smaler sizes and the males are realy big, i keep contact with all my puppies, so the info I told in here is true, the bigest puppy they have produce is 73cm higth! and the smalest is a female with 54cm.

i beleave that this variety of sizes from a couple, is because they are from red lines, reds comes from miniatures, and we put red with blacks to improve pigmentation and size, so when you breed red poodles you will have a big variety of sizes on the puppies, some take the sizes of the black ancestors and some from the miniatures ancestors

that´s what a think about it, has nothing to do with how much they eat or not, off course, saying this thinking on nice people who take good care of their dogs, i beleave no one in here don´t feed their dogs, everybody loves their poodles and take good care of them!


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

canil_quindim said:


> my dog´s have no imbreding, COI of less than 1 %, they are champions, not at all weak!!


My comment was not intended as a response to your comment or about your dogs. I was citing some examples of other situations that could theoretically cause dogs of one size to produce puppies that grow up to be a different size.


----------



## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

outwest said:


> I wish we had a fourth size here, too.
> 
> Just to clarify: In the US the poodle is a poodle whether toy, miniature or standard. You choose the size yourself, not dependent on what the parents sizes were classified as. A mini can be registered as a standard if it is over 15 inches. In Canada, my understanding is that the sizes are separated, with mini poodles only being able to register offspring as minipoodles. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that is the difference.


In *Canada* you *register* your puppy or litter as a *Poodle*. You do not register them as toy, miniature or standard. When you finish them, (get a show championship) the championship papers state the breed size that they finished in. 
All of my *American* registered poodles just come with registration papers that say poodle. The registration papers do not say toy, miniature or standard.
There is nothing wrong with a website for smaller standards. Marketing is marketing.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Finally, someone who knows the exact ins and outs of poodle registration.  So, in Canada it is the same as in the US after all. A Canadian breeder asked a few weeks ago how a mini to standard breeding could be registered in the US. I figured they knew what they were talking about. Clearly, I should get my facts straight. Thank you.


----------



## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

Was thinking of you Outwest:

I mentioned Tina to you before as an example of a smaller standard, here's a shot of her at PCA, where she went Best of Variety! She's not more than 23 inches, but beautifully proportioned, .

Photo by Susan Wilson


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Oh, my, she's adorable! Thank you so much for showing her. Actually, she looks quite a bit smaller than Bonnie (Bonnie is 22 inches). Honestly, she looks Moyen sized- so cool. She must be around 19 or 20 inches, maybe like Cammie's size? Bonnie doesn't look shrimpy to me until she stands next to a full sized standard then it's clear she is smaller. 

Here's how big Bonnie is (my husband is 5'9"). 









Chili (true Moyen on the left) and Bonnie (R)









Here is Chili (17.5 inches tall):


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

No, Tina has been in the ring with Quincy and she is only a little wee bit smaller than him. Kate Winsit is about her size too.


----------



## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

She's around 22 in.

Here are a couple more shots for you, b/w's courtesy Susan Wilson! Colour is mine.


----------



## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Any discussion of bone/bone size occuring along with this current "smaller standard poodle" promotion?

My concern is breeders attempting to fulfill what they see as a demand - read that is - primary concern is SELLING PUPPIES - for the now trend. 

Never a good idea! We shouldn't breed to fulfill demands. I see that as a very less than respectable path.

As CM said, what is being referred to as "small" standards are quite common in the ring, and are doing very well. My girls are all around 20 - 21 inches, I prefer a small bitch. I will not however, sacrifice the components of the breed standard in an effort to produce a litter that I could market as a "small standard breeding" nor would I ever market that I had "smaller standards".

Perhaps I am just being the naysayer - but I've been very vocal about my feelings on breeding a Standard to a Mini - so why "shut it" now! :nono: 

Surprisingly/sadly breeders are not (either) aware or recognizing (so I'm not sure if the problem is ignorance or oblivion) that a low COI equals a total outcross which produces a litter that is very rarely uniform. Unless the breeding is a repeat - and even if it is - exactly how is promoting a "small standard" justified and on what basis is a breeder doing such promotion?

And, to get back to my opening question, is there any mention of bone? or is "small" refering only to height? So promoting a 20 inch heavy headed, heavy boned poodle is still promoting a small standard??


Tabatha
NOLA Standards

PS No offense to anyone intended. I am guilty of not reading the entire thread. I will disclaim that I feel the "moyen/klein" current trend to be right up there with the "royal/teacup" trend of the past few years. My opinion, which is strongly and highly held...by me!


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for the further pictures of Tina. She is a lovely girl and does look a little bigger in her other pictures. Maybe she is about the same size as mine afterall. 

Nola, some people prefer a medium size. Knowing it is a true size in other countries, I don't see an issue with it here other than that we don't recognize it as a separate size. They are registered as standards because anything over 15 inches tall IS a standard here (pretty ridiculous size range from 15-28 inches). There are loads of people who own dogs recognized in other countries, but not in the US. Comparing them to teacups or even the so called Royals isn't right because they are a legitimate (and healthy) size. There are very few people breeding this size in the US, so people who want one need to be particularly careful. The same could be said for the unusual colors now found in poodles and not accepted by AKC. The different colors don't bother me because color has nothing to do with health or conformation (unless it is Merle), but a lot of people are breeding fancy colors for money. 

Breeders trying to fill a demand in order to sell puppies is rampant in the US and everywhere else. I share your concern, but since there is over a foot in height difference with standard poodles, having a site answering questions about smaller standards seems appropriate.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

FoP, thanks for the photos of Tina. She is gorgeous! And Outwest, I love the photos of Bonnie and Chili. I just LOVE this size spoo! 

OK. I just can't resist posting a few of my own. Cammie is 21 inches, 35 pounds. 

Cammie on "her" chair:









Just playing (no doodle-making!):









My pretty girl at the park:


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

What a sweet pumpkin, peppersby. You can see her personality is all her pics (love the stick). She looks just a touch smaller than Bonnie, but of course Bonnie is bulked up with hair right now. LOL. I bet if she was short coated she would look very much Cammie size.


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

outwest said:


> Breeders trying to fill a demand in order to sell puppies is rampant in the US and everywhere else. I share your concern, but since there is over a foot in height difference with standard poodles, having a site answering questions about smaller standards seems appropriate.


Perhaps I am missing something, but I always thought it was better to breed something there is some kind of demand for, rather than to breed something no-one wants.

:toilet:


----------



## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

There is a demand for doodles.

Would you recommend we fill that demand?!!!

Breed to improve the breed. 

Breed for your own line but to improve, always. Pups for pets will result, but in limited litters, as a reputable breeder only breeds a litter or 2 a year.

Breed because folks want a new pup, "royally sized" yesterday and "small standard" today... I fundamentally disagree with that.

Shelters are full.

Educate and Direct to rescue.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Are you comparing a smaller standard to a doodle now? Just askin'


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

What I think NOLA is simply saying is breed to improve the breed, not because you have a waiting list, not breed because people want a specific color or size.


----------



## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Thank you FP.

If I haven't been able to make the point by now, I'll bow out of this discussion.


Tabatha
NOLA Standards


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> What I think NOLA is simply saying is breed to improve the breed, not because you have a waiting list, not breed because people want a specific color or size.


Almost all breeders concentrate on one color or another and one size (toy, miniature, medium, standard) or another. If they didn't, they couldn't improve that particular aspect. NOLA seems to feel the smaller standard between 15-23 inches is a fad, likening it to doodles or teacups or royals (don't think she mentioned them). A slightly smaller standard than is being shown in AKC is improving the breed in some peoples eyes, maybe not NOLA's or yours, but that's okay, too.


----------



## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Given that both of my girls are 20', one a finished AKC CH, and the other with 9 points towards her AKC CH title, one would/should be able to assume (especially one reading any of my posts regarding red standards and what I feel they are lacking) that I find a large doggy animals not to my taste.

In fact, more than likely I could jump on your bandwagon and sell away "small standards", after all - I do have the 7th red standard AKC CH and she is 20 inches and 32 pounds. (That DOES fit the stereotype attempting to be created, yes?!)

HOWEVER, I do NOT agree with or condone the promotion of what 9 out of 10breeders can not guarantee (a small standard), ESPECIALLY when they are doing it to generate interest in their puppies/puppy sales.

Sigh, I said I would bow out of this discussion, if the point has not been made by now it is being ignored or the breeders are oblivious - either concerns me but really does not affect me.

With my final note, Please, DO have your facts correct when stating what you believe "NOLA likes" or feels will improve a line.

Lombardi was 3rd in BBE Dogs at PCA.

So far so good.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I love your posts, Tabatha!  Well said.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

NOLA Standards said:


> Given that both of my girls are 20', one a finished AKC CH, and the other with 9 points towards her AKC CH title, one would/should be able to assume (especially one reading any of my posts regarding red standards and what I feel they are lacking) that I find a large doggy animals not to my taste.
> 
> In fact, more than likely I could jump on your bandwagon and sell away "small standards", after all - I do have the 7th red standard AKC CH and she is 20 inches and 32 pounds. (That DOES fit the stereotype attempting to be created, yes?!)
> 
> ...


Very well said Tabatha, proving that you don't need excuses to finish a small standard poodle of color, just a good dog!


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Very well said Tabatha, proving that you don't need excuses to finish a small standard poodle of color, just a good dog!


Amen to that!


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

NOLA Standards said:


> Given that both of my girls are 20', one a finished AKC CH, and the other with 9 points towards her AKC CH title, one would/should be able to assume (especially one reading any of my posts regarding red standards and what I feel they are lacking) that I find a large doggy animals not to my taste.
> 
> In fact, more than likely I could jump on your bandwagon and sell away "small standards", after all - I do have the 7th red standard AKC CH and she is 20 inches and 32 pounds. (That DOES fit the stereotype attempting to be created, yes?!)
> 
> ...


Who would have thought it? Congratulations on your success, too! Awesome. You seemed to be dogging small standards for some reason. Seems we both had a bit of misunderstanding.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Tabatha -- Thanks for your contribution. I really appreciate the inclusion of all view points in this thread and I think the views you express are shared by many. Thanks for speaking up. Looks like you and I might have different perspectives, but I think sharing different perspectives is a very good thing.

My thoughts for what they are worth:



NOLA Standards said:


> There is a demand for doodles. Would you recommend we fill that demand?!!!


 I have no interest whatsoever in breeding doodles. The stud dog page at smallstandardpoodles.com says clearly that the dogs featured are available to *poodle *bitches that are approved by the owner. I am completely confident that the breeders who own the two stud dogs that are featured would not in a million years make them available as a doodle stud. 



NOLA Standards said:


> Shelters are full. Educate and Direct to rescue.


My experience in my area (eastern PA and NJ) is that there are lots of doodles in rescue, but there are very few standard poodle rescues available, especially if you want one that is under 5 or 6 and has no special needs or problems. I am all for encouraging rescue (my first two spoos were adults when I got them), but I think the demand for rescue spoos in this area exceeds the supply. Rescue may be a good solution for some people, but certainly not for everyone.



NOLA Standards said:


> Breed to improve the breed.
> 
> Breed for your own line but to improve, always. Pups for pets will result, but in limited litters, as a reputable breeder only breeds a litter or 2 a year.


 A lot of people talk about improving the breed. But it seems that different people have different ideas about what this means. Some people are trying to produce dogs that win championships, i.e., that conform to what the AKC judges are looking for. Other people like Yadda, are on a mission to preserve the genetics of the poodle breed, looking everywhere for both health and diversity. Some people want dogs that excel at particular tasks or sports--hunting, agility, etc. Some people don’t want the high energy of an agility dog or the prey instinct of a hunter, and they select for a calm or affectionate temperament. Some people want red dogs, some people want parti or phantom. Who gets to decide which of these various approaches is "improving the breed"? My own feeling, is that the breed needs all of the above approaches. Much has been written about inbreeding depression and the loss of diversity in standard poodles and other breeds. I’m certainly not an expert on this, but I think the breed as a whole is improved as different breeders pursue their own ideals for a better breed. That way, we will have AKC champions with better conformation, and we will have redder reds, more athletic agility dogs, sweeter couch potatoes, and (I hope) more 18 inch spoos in the US and Canada! Everyone gets what they want and we will preserve the genetic diversity of the breed as much as possible. Also I think that improving the breed must include a strong emphasis on health. Breaking down the “wall of silence” that is being discussed in one of the other threads is essential to improving the breed that we all care about. 



NOLA Standards said:


> Breed because folks want a new pup, "royally sized" yesterday and "small standard" today... I fundamentally disagree with that.


The medium poodle (aka moyen/klein) is already an accepted size in the 86 countries that go by FCI rules. So it would seem that one should be able to responsibly breed 18 inch or 20 inch poodles in the US/Canada. With people like Arreau importing dogs, the gene pool would appear to be available to breed this size without inbreeding or high COIs. I don't think this is a fad. I do think it is something that some bad breeders are now trying to do and doing poorly (bad conformation, limited health testing, mini-standard crosses, bitches bred too early, too often, etc.). I'd like to see it done well, by people who love the poodle breed, care about health/health testing, love their breeding dogs, and have the knowledge, experience and ethics to be the very best breeders. I did not start this web site to make money or to sell puppies. I did it simply because I am enchanted by my 35 pound girl and I'd like to see this size poodle accepted by the poodle community and bred by the very best breeders.

Thanks for listening. It is OK if we don't all agree. :smile:


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I don't quite get the issue here. Most people on this thread are on the same page more than they think. Finding issue with a smaller standard website is the same as finding issue with the red breeders club or the parti club. It is one aspect of a very diverse poodle, that's all.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

peppersb said:


> My thoughts for what they are worth:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no interest whatsoever in breeding doodles. The stud dog page at smallstandardpoodles.com says clearly that the dogs featured are available to *poodle *bitches that are approved by the owner. I am completely confident that the breeders who own the two stud dogs that are featured would not in a million years make them available as a doodle stud.


Do you _really_ think that NOLA was implying that you had any interest in breeding doodles? It was an analogy...


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Do you _really_ think that NOLA was implying that you had any interest in breeding doodles? It was an analogy...


Good point, CM. I think my answer on this point was not a good one. My apologies.

If I thought that doodles were the most gorgeous dogs on earth and if I thought they were in short supply, then I'd be all in favor of breeding them. But I think that mixing two beautiful breeds produces a dog that is not beautiful, and doodles are certainly not in short supply. So I'm not in favor of breeding them. In contrast, I am completely enchanted with my beautiful small spoo, and I would love to seem more of them available for people like me who love this size.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

NOLA Standards said:


> ... after all - I do have the 7th red standard AKC CH and she is 20 inches and 32 pounds.


Congratulations Tabatha! What a wonderful achievement! I just love love love that size! I do hope that you will breed her to small boy ...


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

NOLA Standards said:


> There is a demand for doodles.
> 
> Would you recommend we fill that demand?!!!


No, because they're a scam and a self-made market. The 'oodle' fad essentially began from a word-of-mouth advert composed of myths (You Need This Mutt Because it Doesn't Shed Hair and Has the Best of All Breeds Used in its Design). There's a difference between selling something to a market that genuinely wants that thing and hawking something to someone by telling them they want/need it, especially when the thing being sold is a living animal who can't ethically be discarded/returned when the purchaser is disappointed with it.

The small dogs promoted on the website being discussed are within the written breed standard. Unlike mutts, they improve the popularity (and thus genetic diversity and public profile) of the breed and keep the breed alive by catering for people who want something specifically within the standard.

It would be irresponsible for a breeder to breed a litter without knowing if there was a market for the puppies and whether or not they'd be able to sell them to suitable homes. In effect, breeders who make the effort to understand the market before they breed are doing a similar thing to breeders who show, from a marketing perspective. The show breeders use showing to find a market for and advertise what they produce. A show might entertain an audience and benefit the ego of the person whose dog wins, but it doesn't confer any particular benefit as far as the dogs themselves are concerned (and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that). I do not think exhibition is the only suitable reason to breed animals for, and just because someone breeds for purposes other than exhibition, I don't think they do not make attempts to improve the breed. There's a parti breeder on this forum who impresses me not only because she breeds responsibly with health testing and pedigree research, but because she also strives to improve the conformation of her dogs by crossing out to solid lines.


----------



## Penang (Feb 4, 2014)

Thanks Peppersb for starting this thread. I recently joined the poodle forum because of my interest in small standard poodles. The news on your website that Cammie was successfully bred to Sting and is expecting a litter this spring is exciting. Having responsible breeders who are actively promoting small standard poodles is something I welcome. In time, I hope we will see greater recognition within the AKC of the merits small standard poodles.


----------



## Penang (Feb 4, 2014)

zyrcona said:


> No, because they're a scam and a self-made market. The 'oodle' fad essentially began from a word-of-mouth advert composed of myths (You Need This Mutt Because it Doesn't Shed Hair and Has the Best of All Breeds Used in its Design). There's a difference between selling something to a market that genuinely wants that thing and hawking something to someone by telling them they want/need it, especially when the thing being sold is a living animal who can't ethically be discarded/returned when the purchaser is disappointed with it.
> 
> The small dogs promoted on the website being discussed are within the written breed standard. Unlike mutts, they improve the popularity (and thus genetic diversity and public profile) of the breed and keep the breed alive by catering for people who want something specifically within the standard.
> 
> It would be irresponsible for a breeder to breed a litter without knowing if there was a market for the puppies and whether or not they'd be able to sell them to suitable homes. In effect, breeders who make the effort to understand the market before they breed are doing a similar thing to breeders who show, from a marketing perspective. The show breeders use showing to find a market for and advertise what they produce. A show might entertain an audience and benefit the ego of the person whose dog wins, but it doesn't confer any particular benefit as far as the dogs themselves are concerned (and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that). I do not think exhibition is the only suitable reason to breed animals for, and just because someone breeds for purposes other than exhibition, I don't think they do not make attempts to improve the breed. There's a parti breeder on this forum who impresses me not only because she breeds responsibly with health testing and pedigree research, but because she also strives to improve the conformation of her dogs by crossing out to solid lines.


Even the originator of the ladradoodle regrets he ever did this as he had no intention for creating a designer dog industry. The article was published in The Telegraph on 2/8/14, titled "Breeders Regret Over Creating Labradoodle." 

It's useful to understand the history here which began in the 1980s. In part, the article notes: "But the man credited with starting the craze for “designer” dogs when he created the “labradoodle” breed has suggested he feels regret for beginning the trend. Wally Conron, who is now 85, said the demand for such crossbred pets had led to large numbers of “unhealthy” and “abandoned” animals....Mr Conron blames himself for opening a “Pandora’s box” and creating a “Frankenstein”. Dismissing the praise for his creation, he added: “Marvellous thing? My foot. There are a lot of unhealthy and abandoned dogs out there.”


----------



## SAS (Jun 16, 2013)

peppersb said:


> I have recently started a new web site, and I’d like to invite you to participate in making it a success. Regular forum members will recognize Outwest’s Bonnie and Arreau’s Quincy and my Cammie on the home page. The new site is: Small Standard Poodles
> 
> The purpose of the web site is: (1) to encourage the responsible breeding of small standard poodles, (2) to help puppy buyers find well bred small standard poodles, (3) to help breeders find studs, (4) to provide information/education on a variety of related topics, (5) to develop a community of people who are interested in the responsible breeding of small standard poodles, and (6) to have fun (I find this stuff entertaining).
> 
> ...


My pup comes from champion parents who are small standards, ie the females 38-45 lbs, males a little larger. My girl looks like she will top out under 40 lbs. I do not show but I am told her mother finished her championship quickly. The breeder does show and told me the smaller dogs were doing well.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Penang said:


> Thanks Peppersb for starting this thread. I recently joined the poodle forum because of my interest in small standard poodles. The news on your website that Cammie was successfully bred to Sting and is expecting a litter this spring is exciting. Having responsible breeders who are actively promoting small standard poodles is something I welcome. In time, I hope we will see greater recognition within the AKC of the merits small standard poodles.


This is an old thread and a lot has happened in the almost 2 years since I started the web site. I had really hoped that the smallstandardpoodles web site would evolve into a group of people who were breeding healthy, beautiful small standards. But it was more difficult than I thought it would be to find really good breeders who are focusing on this size. I found myself getting inquiries from all over the US and Canada asking for the name of a good breeder, and frankly there were not a lot that I knew well enough (or liked well enough) to recommend. I'm a big believer in buying locally so that a buyer can meet the breeder and at least the momma dog. A couple of months ago, I changed the site so that it was more like a regular breeder site, rather than a site that is in general for small standard poodles. I'm not sure what I'll do with it after the Cammie litter is gone. I would love to see more people breeding this size and if this site can help encourage that, I'd be delighted.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I know I've said it a million times, but
around here, 21-22 inches isn't unusual at all for a bitch. And bitches that size are quite successful. I think it's a bit of a misunderstanding that 21-22 inches is unusual, small, or unsuccessful in the show ring.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

SAS said:


> My pup comes from champion parents who are small standards, ie the females 38-45 lbs, males a little larger. My girl looks like she will top out under 40 lbs. I do not show but I am told her mother finished her championship quickly. The breeder does show and told me the smaller dogs were doing well.


I do think that the 38-45 pound size can succeed in the show ring. Cammie's mate, Sting, is about 40 pounds and he is an AKC champion. But when you get down to Cammie's size (34 pounds) and smaller, I don't think you are likely to win. Please correct me if I am wrong. I'm sure a lot of you know more about this than I do. My co-breeder and mentor is considering keeping a pup from this litter to show and breed. She said she'd like one that is about Sting's size. 

I really wish that there were breeders that were trying to breed even smaller -- say 25 to 35 pounds, but without compromising on structure, health, temperament, or the conditions under which the dogs are kept.

Sounds like you have a great pup. Are you willing to share the name of your breeder?


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

peppersb said:


> I do think that the 38-45 pound size can succeed in the show ring. Cammie's mate, Sting, is about 40 pounds and he is an AKC champion. But when you get down to Cammie's size (34 pounds) and smaller, I don't think you are likely to win. Please correct me if I am wrong. I'm sure a lot of you know more about this than I do. My co-breeder and mentor is considering keeping a pup from this litter to show and breed. She said she'd like one that is about Sting's size.
> 
> I really wish that there were breeders that were trying to breed even smaller -- say 25 to 35 pounds, but without compromising on structure, health, temperament, or the conditions under which the dogs are kept.
> 
> Sounds like you have a great pup. Are you willing to share the name of your breeder?


I think that is wrong. I have seen plenty of bitches Cammie's size successful in the show ring.


----------



## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

I've read this whole thread and have perspective on sizes of spoos from my own experience (I've got 2 spoos - a 6 year old girl and a 10 1/2 month old pup who is already bigger than her sister by a couple inches). This is a little bit of a hijack of the breeding small spoos thread and it is not meant to be mean spirited or a witch hunt in any way, but I wonder what qualities Cammie has for breeding other than being a "smaller spoo". My older spoo (6 yrs.) is 21 3/4 inches at the withers. I don't show my girls in breed (though both are from top lines with only 1 or 2 dogs each in a 4 gen pedigree that were not finished Ch.s or had performance titles) but I am very much into performance work. My older girl is titled in multiple venues in obedience, rally and agility. We have also been involved in lure coursing and have a herding instinct certificate. I am currently training my pup for competition in the same venues. On this site we all talk about what makes a bitch or dog worth breeding, what to look for when researching a breeder, do they title their dogs in conformation or performance. Though Cammie has health clearances, which is really great, I don't see that she has any titles in any breed or performance venue. And since there is no way to say with certainty that she will have an entire litter of "small spoos" or even be the foundation bitch for a line of them, as has been addressed in other posts, I wonder what the thought behind breeding her is?


----------



## phamel (Apr 12, 2014)

*Your puppies*

Love the idea of small standards. Any apricot females ever?


----------



## AleKaiRowdie (Mar 25, 2014)

My first standard was shown (not by me personally) and pointed (no majors-he had a benign tumor on his tail-he had to stop). This was in the 80s. He was fairly small-about 20 inches and never more than 50 pounds. He was the size of the females. The males shown around this area were much bigger. It was difficult to get him noticed in the ring. He was at least 3 inches shorter than the other dogs. But like I said-that was in the 80s.


----------



## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Eclipse said:


> I've read this whole thread and have perspective on sizes of spoos from my own experience (I've got 2 spoos - a 6 year old girl and a 10 1/2 month old pup who is already bigger than her sister by a couple inches). This is a little bit of a hijack of the breeding small spoos thread and it is not meant to be mean spirited or a witch hunt in any way, but I wonder what qualities Cammie has for breeding other than being a "smaller spoo". My older spoo (6 yrs.) is 21 3/4 inches at the withers. I don't show my girls in breed (though both are from top lines with only 1 or 2 dogs each in a 4 gen pedigree that were not finished Ch.s or had performance titles) but I am very much into performance work. My older girl is titled in multiple venues in obedience, rally and agility. We have also been involved in lure coursing and have a herding instinct certificate. I am currently training my pup for competition in the same venues. On this site we all talk about what makes a bitch or dog worth breeding, what to look for when researching a breeder, do they title their dogs in conformation or performance. Though Cammie has health clearances, which is really great, I don't see that she has any titles in any breed or performance venue. And since there is no way to say with certainty that she will have an entire litter of "small spoos" or even be the foundation bitch for a line of them, as has been addressed in other posts, I wonder what the thought behind breeding her is?


Thanks for you post, I totally agree with you.


----------



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

*small standard male*

When I go looking for a poodle next year, I want a male in the range of 25-35 lbs. This would exactly fit the moyen/klein weights. Getting a small standard male would be unlikely if I want a good breeder within 5 hrs of travel from central Illinois. I really want a male I can pick up but isn't too small. Right now we have 50 lb Portuguese Water Dogs, and they are a fine size for my husband but bigger than I want. I would rather concentrate on temperament and health only and not worry about the size. I could do that we we had moyen accepted in this country. I will probably get a minipoodle and it might be smaller than I really want.


----------



## AleKaiRowdie (Mar 25, 2014)

Maybe you'll be able to find a minipoo breeder with larger minis. I'm almost positive that it's easier to find a large mini than a small standard. My mom was big into feeding dog vitamins. All of our small dogs ended up bigger than normal size. The only way I've ever heard of anyone making big dogs smaller is some crazy guy who would feed his puppies whiskey to stunt their growth.


----------



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Getting an oversized mini would work, but one breeder I really liked said that her minis were always 12-18 lbs. Plus, again I would like to get a dog that would have a good temperament for therapy work. Getting only a dog that is an oversized mini means that temperament isn't as important as size. I just wish I had some good choices. Too bad I am not a terrier "person" because there are a lot of terrier breeds in the 25-35 lb range. But I like the poodle and PWD personalities. So my dogs will either be bigger than I prefer or smaller. I guess I have to accept that.


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Both Chagall's mom and I love our oversized minis! Beau is about 16-1/2" and 22 lbs. -- and yes, he could use to loose a bit of weight. I think Chagall is about 17-1/2". Really a great size! I don't think it's just my personal bias talking to say our boys are beautiful both inside and out, with lovely conformation and equally great temperaments. (I only wish Beau was as well trained as Chagall, but that's another story.)


----------



## AleKaiRowdie (Mar 25, 2014)

I had a groomer tell me that she liked toys and standards, but she thought minis were "psycho". I never had that experience. But my mini was LARGE. He was 18" at the shoulder. He had PERFECT recall-and I do mean PERFECT. Have never SEEN a dog that was more devoted. He was very mellow and was the reason I bought a standard as my next dog to begin with. We lived in the country, but even if we hadn't-the dog had no reason to EVER be on a leash-he wouldn't ever leave my sight. I know your perfect size and temperment is out there-sure wish I knew where exactly.


----------

