# Transition off treats-how long?



## flyingpoodle (Feb 5, 2012)

I am mostly looking for reassurance that I don't need to worry about transitioning my 4 1/2 month old spoo off treats with clicker training yet. We are working on using a verbal or other mouth sound marker in addition to a mechanical clicker but are not consistent with any of them yet. It is just so darn easy to slip and misuse a mouth sound, but so much harder for me to inappropriately click. 

I just keep reading about transitioning away from food treats, and worry since they are such a huge part of my training arsenal right now. 

And yes, I understand always treat after you click. 

I am working on going longer in between reinforcing/rewarding on structured walks, and using sniffing around as a reward without a click after an offered sit. 

How long did the mysterious transition take some of you?


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## fearfuldogs (Oct 18, 2012)

*Fading treats*

I will share a standard trainer reply: It depends.

The more continuously a treat is given for performing a behavior the stronger that behavior will be. We can switch to a variable reward schedule, only treating sometimes, and build a behavior that is less likely to go way. 

There are going to be stages of development which are going to affect a pup's motivation and being prepared to highly reinforce a desired behavior is helpful. 

Some behaviors I will always reward either with a conditioned or primary reinforcer, a recall for example ALWAYS is rewarded. I build a varied repertoire of conditioned reinforcers so that I don't need to have treats to reinforce a behavior, keeping in mind that behaviors can fade if they are not reinforced frequently enough. 

If I'm not getting a cued behavior regularly it may be an indication that the behavior was not adequately reinforced. 

More of a concern to me is that a treat is being used as bribe, instead of as a reinforcer. If it's being used as a reinforcer, too many is rarely a problem.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Tesla's 13 months old now and I still have treats stashed all around the apartment, and frequently in my pockets or treat pouch. Her sits and downs and very very basic stuff have been moved to a variable schedule long ago. I still treat her for it occasionally but it's mostly secondary reinforcers now like getting to go through a door if she sits first, or being invited up onto my lap when she sits and gives paw. For everything else, we differentially reinforce the best half - so the fastest or prettiest or most accurate etc, if she's responding reliably to the cue. If the cue isn't reliable yet, then it's 100% reinforcement rate.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

fearfuldogs said:


> I will share a standard trainer reply: It depends....
> 
> The more continuously a treat is given for performing a behavior the stronger that behavior will be.... We can switch to a variable reward schedule....
> More of a concern to me is that a treat is being used as bribe, instead of as a reinforcer. If it's being used as a reinforcer, too many is rarely a problem.


If the wisdom you so succintly shared fit on a bumpersticker, I'd stick it my car for the world to see. Thanks!:car:


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## flyingpoodle (Feb 5, 2012)

Arcticfox said:


> Tesla's 13 months old now and I still have treats stashed all around the apartment, and frequently in my pockets or treat pouch. Her sits and downs and very very basic stuff have been moved to a variable schedule long ago. I still treat her for it occasionally but it's mostly secondary reinforcers now like getting to go through a door if she sits first, or being invited up onto my lap when she sits and gives paw. For everything else, we differentially reinforce the best half - so the fastest or prettiest or most accurate etc, if she's responding reliably to the cue. If the cue isn't reliable yet, then it's 100% reinforcement rate.


This was a very useful description of where you and your dog are at, thanks! So maybe I get points for using some secondary reinforcers! I may be more advanced than I gave myself credit for!


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Great advice by Fearfuldogs. 

I stop giving a treat every time once the behavior is mastered because I know that the dog knows it. Then I start phasing it out to intermittent use to keep the dog playing the odds. BUT I ALWAYS reward a job well done in some way. It can be cheering for your dog if they like that, baby talk, a big and happy smile, ear scratch, whatever. What the dog is receptive to. These are secondary reinforcers. Ginger's main one is cheering and applause (she's an attention wh*re) and Angel's is a face rub. But switch it up and play with it so see how many different rewards you can develop and utilize. You're never be caught without a way to reward good behavior.

But when you raise the criteria (more distractions, longer periods of compliance, etc.), you always up the treat use until the behavior has been mastered with the new criteria as well. 

Just how I do it. I definably don't bribe my dogs. They're happy to comply whether I have food in hand or not. Although, food makes them happiest.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You will never get rid of food rewards entirely, but make sure as fearful dogs said to use them as a reinforcer not a bribe. A nice jackpot of food, ball play or a good belly rub for an especially good response throughout the life of the dog will keep the desired responses crisp and fast. I am sure you realize that your dog will have opportunities to learn new things with you throughout your life together. As the tasks become more complex going back to food rewards will always help the learning.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I think missminnamouse has a great point. Always reward a job well done even if it is just with a pleased look. I have seen people go from tons of treats to almost none in a short amount of time without subbing in a rub, a tug ect. And it is very demotivating for the dog. Fearful dogs as nailed it. As long as it is reinforcement and not a bribe it is not a problem.


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## Specman (Jun 14, 2012)

I had a trainer tell me once "You get paid for your work, why shouldn't your dog?" There should always be a reward of some sort for your dog especially for re3call.


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

You've been given really great advice above!

At your puppies age I wouldn't be taking away the food rewards just yet especially with adolescence coming up. That doesn't mean you have to treat every known behavior, but the more rewarding for positive behavior the better the behavior is going to stick!


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