# What do you think of clicker training?



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I found it worked great combined with lure training, but not very effective with shaping, and that was with a trainer watching me telling me that I was doing it well. Perhaps another dog would be more receptive to it though. Or maybe I should try it again now that Timi is older - she is certainly smarter now than back when I was trying it....


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Anckaa55 said:


> I have seen a lot of articles on clicker training my puppy but I'm not really sure this is the best technique. Have you ever tried it? Did it work for you? What do you think?


I always use a clicker with puppies and also whenever I am teaching a new behavior to an adult dog as well.  I usually fade out the clicker to ultimately use a marker word "yes!" so that I can have a similar effect when I don't have my clicker handy.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I always use a clicker with puppies and also whenever I am teaching a new behavior to an adult dog as well.  I usually fade out the clicker to ultimately use a marker word "yes!" so that I can have a similar effect when I don't have my clicker handy.


I take an approach similar to CM.

The clicker or marker word does essentially the same thing: it marks the behavior you want. I used both "yes!" and the clicker with Ari from the beginning, because each has its advantages.

The clicker is really good for marking very precise behaviors, and is more consistent than a human voice could ever be. I find it easier to time a click perfectly than to use a marker word precisely. I use a clicker for shaping new behaviors around the house and for proofing behaviors outside the house.

"Yes" or another marker word is useful because you'll always have your voice with you, and because you can use intonation to convey emotion. Sometimes when Ari really nails something I'll click and then reflexively say "yes!" at the same time. The downside to using a marker word is that some people forget to mark behavior if they are not holding a clicker, or the timing is off.

Clickers are cheap, so you could buy one and experiment with using the click vs. a marker word and see which works better for you. Either way, the goal is to make the click a predictor for a reward so you need to make sure that the order of events is right to see an effect. The order is desired behavior = click > treat. You want the click to occur at the moment of the behavior you want and the reward to come slightly after.

Regardless of which marker you choose, yes, positive reinforcement is the best way to train a puppy!

This "trick a week program" shows successful use of a clicker/positive reinforcement very clearly. You can teach your dog anything!
The ‘Trick A Week’ Program - #1


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I love it. I call it "marker training" in my head, because I'm usually doing the same things whether I have a physical clicker with me or I'm just saying "Yes!" or whatever. The clicker can get a little cumbersome or noisy at times, so I don't always have it. I tend to trade off capturing vs luring behaviors depending on how specific my goals are at the time. 

For example, one thing I've worked on with Archie is teaching him to look at me when he's in a distracting or stressful environment. For that I just waited for him to look when he was otherwise a little overwhelmed, then either clicked or said "yes!" and gave him a treat every time he did it. After doing that enough times, I've noticed if there's an unexpected commotion nearby he'll just reflexively look over at me. Capturing is great for that kind of thing, where you want them to do something "on their own," and it's also great for when you really want serious brain stimulation (like with the game 1001 Things to do with a Box, which you can find online if you google).

I use luring for more precise cued behaviors, like sit. It's just easier.

Oh, in case you don't know the terms - luring is when you use a treat or other reward to manipulate the dog into doing what you want (like sticking a treat in front of your dog's nose and then slowly raising it up so that they sit down). Capturing is when you wait until the dog decides to do something you like on his/her own and then mark it (with a click or "Yes" or whatever) and give a reward.

Clickers are especially good for trick training.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

lisasgirl said:


> Oh, in case you don't know the terms - *luring* is when you use a treat or other reward to manipulate the dog into doing what you want (like sticking a treat in front of your dog's nose and then slowly raising it up so that they sit down). *Capturing* is when you wait until the dog decides to do something you like on his/her own and then mark it (with a click or "Yes" or whatever) and give a reward..


And #3 on that list is "*shaping* by successive approximations", which is similar to capturing but you are capturing behaviors that are increasingly close to the final product you want. Because I find that training concepts are best explained in video form, here is a video of shaping (featuring a poodle, no less!):

"Shaping" Demo - Clicker Training - Dog Training


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

For myself I found it difficult to manage a clicker, leash and treats all at once. My timing with the clicker suffered as a result and just wasn't effective. I always just use a verbal marker.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I love it. But I also use both a clicker and a marker word. The thing about the clicker is that it is suppose to register in a different part of the brain than verbal sounds and is more precise. But sometimes I don't want to deal with it, along with everything else. It certainly is effective in teaching new behaviors...gets them going quickly.


Shaping is reinforcing baby steps toward the ultimate behavior you're looking for. Ie: The dog is learning to retrieve but only brings the ball back half way. You reward for that. The next time he brings it half way, you withhold the reward. And by behavioral "law" he will try harder to get the reward...probably will come a little closer than the last time or maybe faster. You reward for what you're looking for. If he comes a lot closer, you jack pot him. So little by little you're rewarding the behavior he's offering and shaping it to become the final product so to speak. 

Successive approximation is a tad different from spontaneous behavior offered that you reward. Here, you manipulate the _environment_ to make it easier for him to succeed. Ie: He's learning to jump. You start with a very low jump, just inches off the ground and reinforce when he gets that. Then you raise the jump a little higher...encouraging him to make it over the jump and then reinforce when he succeeds. He's learning to jump like a real pro and how he's learning is that the bar is being raised gradually. 

In animal behavior we trained various animals. One of the species that was really fun were pigeons. To get them to reach up high and press the lever that would release food, I started with the bar low where it was easy. Then raised it a tad higher, reinforced for a few reps, then raised it again a bit more and so on until he got the picture that he must reach up to press the lever that he didn't initially understand. I got to bring the pigeons home with me on weekends. It was a trip. They're really cool birds.

Capturing is typically referring to a behavior that you like...the finished product and you reinforce that. Say you have a hard time getting your dog to lie down by luring or forcing. He just doesn't want to lie down. But after a walk, he comes in the house and plops his tired body on the floor. That's the moment you capture that and reinforce it. Or your dog comes to you when you didn't even call him. He comes running right to you on his own accord. You've been trying to teach him to come for a long time. Well, here you have it. He just came and now you can capture that and reinforce lavishly. 

There are a lot of various ways to show a dog what to do. There's shaping... a gradual building up or refinement of a behavior that the dog is offering. There's successive approximation where you're changing something external to get his behavior to change. And there's capturing...waiting to notice something you like and reinforcing it. There are times where all of these things (and more) are useful and times where one is more effective than another.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Yes, clicker training is great. I started primarily using the clicker but gradually more and more used a particular sound (a flat, hissed, "Yessss!") as a verbal marker. I still break out the clicker for precision and learning new things when needed. 

In my training paradigm, I love shaping and capturing, but try very hard to avoid luring. In Agility, you want the dog at distance from you, focused on the obstacles, and luring tends to train them to focus on you and your hands. For some behaviors it's fine (I lured "Spin" and "Twirl"), and of course the lure can be used with skill and then faded, but I definitely prefer to capture or shape.

Give it a try! It's a fun way to train.

--Q


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Quossum said:


> Yes, clicker training is great. I started primarily using the clicker but gradually more and more used a particular sound (a flat, hissed, "Yessss!") as a verbal marker. I still break out the clicker for precision and learning new things when needed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't you have to point them to the obstacles? I found that luring, and watching my hand for signals works very well for Timi - for example, when I wanted to teach her to jump through a hoop, I just gestured going through the hope with my hand and bam, she did it instantly! I also found that they tend to retain hand signals better than verbal commands - almost 14 year old Teaka can be in an absolute tizzy, not paying attention to me at all, but I give her the hand signal for sit, and bam, het but hits the ground - tizzy interrupted! 
When I wanted to teach Timi to stand in place on her hind legs, I just gave her the hand signal for dance, and before she could begin to twirl, I gave her the signal for stay, and bam, we had standing in place. I just need to figure out a hand signal for standing in place...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I agree...luring should be used very judiciously and faded after the first 3 or 4 reps of luring. But it's a good way to get a jump start on certain behaviors. But definitely not something to become too dependent on. You don't want that to become part of the cue...that hand with the treat in it. So, very quickly lure with the hand that did hold a treat and has the scent, but no treat. Then no scent or treat, then transition the lure to a hand signal that_ elicits _the behavior..._not_ that it is used like a bribe.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I love clicker training. I have a clicker on a band that I wear like a ring, so I don't drop it. The clicker is like the sound a camera makes when you snap a picture. It marks the precise moment the dog got it right. I also use a verbal marker, too.


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## Marta Elmer (Sep 29, 2012)

I have the same experience as Tiny Poodles. Woodstock reacts to my gesture much better then to my verbal order. But I stopped using clicker because it is so noisy and actually I never noticed it made the training more efficient. I use whistle and it works like charm, but I charge the whistle with special treat - like cheese. 

But my question is what to use as regular treat? I am afraid that I give Woodstock way too much of different cookies (although I try to buy as healthy as possible). When can I stop using treats, and just reward him with words? We stopped having lessons, since the weather is not so good here, but will go on in the spring. So my first question will be this - till when to go on luring? What is your opinion?


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Don't you have to point them to the obstacles? I found that luring, and watching my hand for signals works very well for Timi - for example, when I wanted to teach her to jump through a hoop, I just gestured going through the hope with my hand and bam, she did it instantly! I also found that they tend to retain hand signals better than verbal commands - almost 14 year old Teaka can be in an absolute tizzy, not paying attention to me at all, but I give her the hand signal for sit, and bam, het but hits the ground - tizzy interrupted!
> When I wanted to teach Timi to stand in place on her hind legs, I just gave her the hand signal for dance, and before she could begin to twirl, I gave her the signal for stay, and bam, we had standing in place. I just need to figure out a hand signal for standing in place...


The way we start jumping is to have someone hold the dog on one side of the jump, then the handler goes to the other side and calls them over. The restraint builds the drive. Then you run with them and they take the jump alongside you. Then you might have a reward--a treat or a toy--on the other side of the jump, and you send them from your side to get the reward. Soon, jumps should be so incredibly motivating that if there are jumps present, your dog should want to jump them! Then it's a matter of using your body position and directional commands to get them to take the correct jumps in the correct sequence. That's where it gets...um...tricky! 

Luring has its place, too. Some people teach lured weaves and are very effective with it.

And I agree--dogs seem to remember hand signals--along with the position of the handler's body--very powerfully. In Agility we know very well that if your mouth says one thing but your body is something something else, the dog will inevitably obey your body!

--Q


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## Anckaa55 (Feb 8, 2016)

Thanks for all the responses. I was thinking clicker training is good, but a bit inconvenient at times, seeing that you have to carry it around all the time. I'm currently teaching my puppy to sit with treats, hand gestures and a marker word. She responds best to the hand signal, but i don't think she quite gets "no" and "good" yet. How could I begin to train those words more accurately without a clicker?


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## blueroan (Dec 28, 2015)

I never really liked clicker training. But I did try it a few times with my dog. He hated the noise of the clicker so that was out! Actually...lol...nobody in the house liked the sound of it! I suppose it might have been possible to get a "softer" clicker but we decided not to go that route. 

He responded much better to hand signals and facial expressions and voice tone. 

Anckaa55 you teach no and good with above. Act unhappy, frown etc when you do NO. "Good" you treat them like they're the best behaved dog in the world! Act excited, hug them, smile, and give a few treats!  I also taught mine a thumbs up was "good" heh. So you can tone it down eventually to just that when they get the idea of "good"


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

I have switched to saying "yes!" instead of clicking. I can't, for the life of me, coordinate treat, leash, clicker and get it synced up in an appropriate amount of time. 

I am finding, though, that I actually prefered the old way (I learned doing the Volhard method), of running the dog through the exercise, and then celebrating "yay! you did it!" and then give a treat. Because now, with my clicker/yes trained dogs, they forever pivot to face the treat pouch hooked on my waist. Which means crooked sits, crooked heel position, crooked fronts. 

And so I am forever trying to fix that. 

And now I've just talked myself out of clicker/yes training.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Anckaa55 said:


> Thanks for all the responses. I was thinking clicker training is good, but a bit inconvenient at times, seeing that you have to carry it around all the time. I'm currently teaching my puppy to sit with treats, hand gestures and a marker word. She responds best to the hand signal, but i don't think she quite gets "no" and "good" yet. How could I begin to train those words more accurately without a clicker?


Repetition. Ari was offering the behavior of sitting after 2-3 luring sessions, and I continued to have her offer the behavior for another few days before I started naming it "sit" and introduced the hand signal. I said "yes" (which I think is equivalent to your good) from the beginning when she sat. 

I imagine her thought process was something like:
1. Luring, 2-3 attempts: "Oh, look at that, I can put my bum on the floor and get treats for it."
2. Introducing marker word, 3-20 repetions: "Oh hear that, when I put my bum on the floor Mom says 'yes' and gives me a treat!"
3. Introducing cue, 20-30 repetitions: "When Mom says 'sit' or moves her hand like that and I put my bum on the floor, she then says yes and I get even more treats!"

Then I would restart 1-3 with 'down,' 'give paw,' etc.

Eventually...

4. Generalized marker word, after 50+ repetitions with different cues: "WOW, when Mom says 'yes' it means that I got the right answer! Wonder what else I can do to get her to say yes!"

You could do the same with "no" but I chose not to introduce a no reward marker (NRM) until later in her training because poodles can be very sensitive and I didn't want her to get discouraged or lose motivation. I started sparingly introducing "eh-eh" which is Ari's NRM when she was around 4 months old after 2-ish months of only "yes!"+treat for right answers and no response for wrong answers.

Now that Ari is 9 months old, I can mix "yes" (70% of the time) and "eh-eh" (30% of the time) together while we are shaping so that she stops trying a behavior that I don't want and it doesn't discourage her. In general, my philosophy is that if your puppy is hearing the NRM more often than 1 in 3 attempts, you are making the exercise too difficult so you should take things back a notch.

Remember, you are essentially teaching your puppy English.

At first, she will have no idea that the strange gibberish words you say have any significance so she won't be hearing them/listening carefully just like you don't listen to the individual words when you hear a language you don't speak. That's probably why she is responding best to hand cues right now—she is noticing them! It will take some time to build up the first 2 words, which for Ari were "yes" and "sit" and then she will start to listen more and more as you add more words. Eventually, the light bulb will go on and she will understand that words mean things... this has happened quickly with the poodles I have known.

For example an example of learning to listen, here are 3 videos of Ari showing the different stages of the English as a Canine Language (ECL :act-up learning process. The first is the day she came home, when she had a shaky grasp on her name but not much else. The second, a week later after talking to her constantly. She's starting to listen more and "get it". In the third, Ari is four months old, after she has learned several words and hand gestures.

This one is the day after she came home. Notice that she doesn't really pay attention when I say her name, but she is offering the "sit" behavior because I had already lured her to do it a couple of times. Specifically, I was making "sit" more rewarding than grabbing the mop in this video.
[click images to see videos]
Mopping

This video is a 8 days later. Notice how she knows the word "sit" even though we are still working on the other words like "touch" "down" etc.
Ari day 9, 10 wks old

Four months old, recognizing and differentiating words. Near the beginning of this video she offers a roll over un-cued to which I say, "ohp" which was my original NRM till I switched to "eh-eh":
Ari 4 months old

I actually didn't get a clicker until Ari was about 5 months old. I had never used one before and didn't see the point. Now, I use it in specific situations as I noted in my first post and find it very useful.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I also found that the clicker is wonderful for increasing the duration of a behavior. I would say "yes" when Timi gave me the correct behavior, but she would still wait for the click. So for example, Sit - instant "yes", wait five seconds, click and treat. Next rep - Sit, "yes", wait 7 seconds, click and treat.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I have used and like clicker training. I really only used it when Draco was a baby though. I feel that it did help communicate better what I was rewarding. The biggest/best thing that I used it for was teaching focus. I would say his name and the moment he made eye contact with me I would click then treat. We would do it in the house, but all the time at puppy class. To this day when I say his name he whips his head around to look at me and has a fantastic recall to just his name from all of that work (that didnt even seem like work).


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## Wren (Jul 2, 2013)

I use a verbal marker (Yes!) rather than a clicker; I couldn’t coordinate it all without dropping the thing. If you can manage it, I think it works well for certain purposes.

Regarding hand gestures

I think research shows that dogs learn from hand gestures more easily than verbal cues, however one thing to consider about using hand signals is that you don’t want you or your dog to become dependent on hand signals. As a human, it is easy to fall into the habit of signaling without a verbal cue because it is easier for us and the dog generally responds faster. 

Dogs must learn to obey your voice commands. You need to be able to use your voice to direct your dog when the dog’s back is turned, when your back is turned, when the dog is too far away to see a hand signal, when it is dark, etc. When your dog takes off across a busy street after a cat, squirrel, dog, etc. you can signal like ninja, but the dog won’t see it. You and the dog also have to practice your verbal cues from different positions with you lying on your back, sitting on the floor, standing, kneeling, with the dog sitting with their back to you etc.

Jonah and I have to work hard on verbal cues, he picks up a hand signal in just 1-2 reps, and he isn’t nearly as quick or reliable on some verbal cues as I want him to be.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

In professional training 50 years ago there were no clickers. But many of us used a finger "snap!!" in much the same way with puppies. Later a key word or words (usually "good boy") I think clickers came from this technique. The important thing is, you can allways snap your fingers since most of us have them with us all the time. But if you forget your clicker you are bereft.
Eric


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I don't use a clicker. I have been trying to be very consistent and conscientious with hand signals in addition to treats and verbal cues. My last dog was deaf the last two years of his life and I wish I had used hand signals with him as a puppy.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

ericwd9 said:


> In professional training 50 years ago there were no clickers. But many of us used a finger "snap!!" in much the same way with puppies. Later a key word or words (usually "good boy") I think clickers came from this technique. The important thing is, you can allways snap your fingers since most of us have them with us all the time. But if you forget your clicker you are bereft.
> Eric


Actually, BF Skinner suggested a child's toy (cricket) to use as a marker in dog training. The cricket is very similar to a clicker.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

For the most part I use a word as a marker, but also use a clicker as I find it makes things really clear really fast. I never thought of snapping my fingers, I'll use that idea for sure!


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## PhoebeAndMe (Dec 25, 2015)

Phoebe is the only dog (I have tried clicker training cats and it works "some" of the time with "some" of my cats when THEY are in the mood) I've consistently clicker trained since I got her (November). Now my issue is, if she knows the clicker and a treat is NOT there, 25% of the time she's totally uninterested. I know it's me, but any advice is appreciated.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

PhoebeAndMe said:


> Phoebe is the only dog (I have tried clicker training cats and it works "some" of the time with "some" of my cats when THEY are in the mood) I've consistently clicker trained since I got her (November). Now my issue is, if she knows the clicker and a treat is NOT there, 25% of the time she's totally uninterested. I know it's me, but any advice is appreciated.


Is there anything else she finds rewarding? Archie gets treats for following commands, but he also gets doors opened, leashes removed, toys thrown, greetings from strangers, etc. etc. So at this point even if he's pretty sure I don't have a treat on me, he can reasonably guess that I have some other reward up my sleeve. For example, the other day I wanted to practice heeling/close walking with him, but I didn't have a treat on me. So I just picked up a stick, cued him, and gave him the stick for his reward. Then I took the stick back and we did it again. He loves sticks and he's rarely allowed to chew on them, so they make a great reward that's readily available outside. His "sit" is also rock solid because he has to do it before he's allowed through any doors - no treats there, just the door opening, which is awesome enough on its own.

Also, do you give the same treat every time? If you practice varying the "value" of the reward (example: extra treats, better treats, etc.), then you encourage the dog to push her luck in situations where she thinks she might get nothing, juuuust in case she's actually about to hit the jackpot instead. Think of it as the one healthy use for a gambling addiction. :laugh:


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## PhoebeAndMe (Dec 25, 2015)

Lisasgirl, thanks! I actually do either dog kibble, cat kibble, these 1 calorie wet cat treats, or cut up cheese, chicken, or people food...so like the jackpot is people food OR a mix of a few like one of each OR three to five of the kibbles.

But, I've been experimenting with play. We have a duck toy I use ONLY when I'm trying to do formal training so she can't just play with it anytime. So like if we're doing long sit stays or whatever, the reward is that. I've also just thrown or started playing with whatever toy is there for a reward when it's impromptu. And when all else fails it seems I can do "kisses kisses kisses" which is when she's allowed to lick my neck.

So it seems I'm on the right track? If so good! I just don't want a fat dog, BTDT with one cat and it was a long road, or an only treat motivated one.

I'm also using "ok!" a lot for stuff she knows instead of clicking, which is what I did with Max (the cat). To be honest, even with Karen's cat training book, I thought it was just kinda senseless to keep training him anymore than an indoor cat needs.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

I, too, struggled during introductory obedience classes with leash, treat, clicker . . . and gave up quickly. Years later I keep the clicker on a coiled key band around my wrist, so it's available when needed, sparingly now since I'm only running agility with my 7 yo. I still use it to train tricks, which can be used in the ring as de-stressing or connection exercises. Recent clicker adoption is a direct result of exposure to different training methods through seminars. I saw that it could work. 

I believe that treats always have a place in training, though should be dispensed randomly as the dog learns a behavior. I gave up training my first dog because an instructor told me that she should do what I ask without food rewards and class became no longer fun for either of us. Have learned how to "play" with my current dog and a game of tug can easily substitute for a food reward--but it took a long time to teach.

My dog also responds better to hand signals than verbals. Wish that I had incorporated them earlier in her training. It was only when we were involved in activities where she was working away from me that I started using them.

Just bought Karen Pryor's Clicker Training For Puppies so will see how that goes.

Great topic. It's a good reminder of the need to find the right technique that works for an individual dog.


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## gr8pdls (Jul 13, 2010)

scooterscout99 said:


> Just bought Karen Pryor's Clicker Training For Puppies so will see how that goes.
> 
> Great topic. It's a good reminder of the need to find the right technique that works for an individual dog.


I love clicker training and use it all the time for certain behaviors. It should work for all animals if done correctly. 

The more complex and/or subtle the behavior, the more likely I will choose to clicker shape the behavior. I use a clicker to train my conformation Poodles to look straight ahead or more just one back foot when stacked. In Obedience training for straight fronts and finishes, back-chaining Utility go-outs. Of course in Agility training for lots of different activities, like contacts, weaves, etc.

But, the clicker is used just to get the desired behaviors started and refined. Soon after the Poodle is on a random reward schedule, the clicker is replaced with play or a marker word like 'yes'. 

There are some behaviors or tricks that I don't think can be clicker trained. When a friend's daughter graduated from Karen Pryor Academy (Clicker College), she was quite a bit zealous about clickers for everything. I stumped her with this trick I called "Clicker this!"

In my mind, a Clicker is just another tool to use in training.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

OMG! That is just toooooooo CUTE! I loved the father daughter dance. It just put a big smile on my face to last me all day.

I think that trick can be clicker trained. It can be shaped. It may not be the most practical way in some things. But I think as the dog gets closer to the behavior you want, he can be clicked and treated a second or so later...the click letting him know that being mid air was good. Maybe it wasn't high enough so the click/treat can then be withheld next time. So then the dog tries harder...probably jumping higher or better...something you are looking for...then click/treat. No? LOL. I see though that it is probably more practical with an enthusiastic dog to just go for the gusto right off the bat and reward the whole thing.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I think that trick can be clicker trained. It can be shaped. It may not be the most practical way in some things. But I think as the dog gets closer to the behavior you want, he can be clicked and treated a second or so later...the click letting him know that being mid air was good. Maybe it wasn't high enough so the click/treat can then be withheld next time. So then the dog tries harder...probably jumping higher or better...something you are looking for...then click/treat. No? LOL. I see though that it is probably more practical with an enthusiastic dog to just go for the gusto right off the bat and reward the whole thing.


Agreed!


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## gr8pdls (Jul 13, 2010)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> he can be clicked and treated a second or so later...the click letting him know that being mid air was good.


The click is supposed to mark the exact behavior one is striving to attain be it any incremental shaping action to the final act. If both hands are occupied, its pretty much impossible to click at the correct time. Maybe if an assistant was doing the click, one could use a clicker. 

Poodles like to jump and retrieve so that natural instinct can be used in training.


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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

gr8pdls said:


> The click is supposed to mark the exact behavior one is striving to attain be it any incremental shaping action to the final act. If both hands are occupied, its pretty much impossible to click at the correct time. Maybe if an assistant was doing the click, one could use a clicker.
> 
> 
> 
> Poodles like to jump and retrieve so that natural instinct can be used in training.



I use an iclick and put it under my foot when I need both hands. Click it with my foot, and boom, problem solved. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

gr8pdls said:


> The click is supposed to mark the exact behavior one is striving to attain be it any incremental shaping action to the final act. If both hands are occupied, its pretty much impossible to click at the correct time. Maybe if an assistant was doing the click, one could use a clicker.
> 
> Poodles like to jump and retrieve so that natural instinct can be used in training.


Yes, I understand about clicker training and it's correct use. I've been a fan for a very long time. And it sure can be a challenging task of coordination sometimes if your hands are busy. But in many cases, I think it can be done. An assistant would be helpful in some instances. I too, use a marker word in many applications, though not as precise. And I agree...an enthusiastic, playful dog is easy to teach.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

gr8pdls said:


> The click is supposed to mark the exact behavior one is striving to attain be it any incremental shaping action to the final act. If both hands are occupied, its pretty much impossible to click at the correct time. Maybe if an assistant was doing the click, one could use a clicker.
> 
> 
> 
> Poodles like to jump and retrieve so that natural instinct can be used in training.



The point is that you can click to mark the behavior, and still have time to reach into your pocket or pouch to get the treat because the click has already reinforced the precise behavior. I did leash and clicker in left hand, hand signal with right hand, click with left hand, reach for treat with right hand. Worked fine.


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## TeamPoodle (Aug 10, 2015)

I love it. Riley is only my second dog. My first, a Toy Poodle we got when I was 14, we trained with a choke collar, because we didn't know there were alternatives and all the research at the time said it wasn't detrimental to a dog physically or mentally. If this is the route you choose with your dog I can say that we were very successful with Cannelle, she is extremely well behaved to this day and will do what you ask on command.

Now... enter Riley, 12 years later. We were recommended a force-free trainer (we didn't know it at the time) and because she was so highly recommended by multiple sources, we decided to give it a go. All I can say is what a difference! While Cannelle will listen, she's always got a bit of a wariness to her, as if to say "if I don't, what will happen?", but Riley doesn't have any of that. Especially as a rescue dog with unknown background, I think any sort of negative reinforcement would have been a major setback for us. He's free to make mistakes, and you can really see him thinking through problems, it is really fun. While clicker training mainly relies on treats as the reward for correct behavior, Riley isn't very food motivated and we've found that play time or a favorite toy will get him to produce the desired behaviors better. It is flexible that way, but our trainer recommended we give the toy and a treat. So Riley gets rewarded extra 

And, you can clicker any behavior! So anything your dog is doing that you like, you click it, and over time they create an association that behavior = good. Plus, because your dog gets rewarded with food, which they think is fun, and you're having fun, it helps build your bond together, and your dog learns that listening to you is rewarding for him, so that when they are off-leash in the front yard and run full-speed towards the kid in the road to say hi (true story), and you tell your dog to "come", knowing that there might be a reward for listening that is GREATER than saying hello to the kid, your chances of him listening are better than other means. (I was a pretty proud mama that day when he stopped dead in his tracks, reversed his direction and ran full-speed for me instead! You better believe I handed out the treats like it was Halloween).

I'm really a convert and passionate about this. And it really does work!


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## TeamPoodle (Aug 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> The point is that you can click to mark the behavior, and still have time to reach into your pocket or pouch to get the treat because the click has already reinforced the precise behavior. I did leash and clicker in left hand, hand signal with right hand, click with left hand, reach for treat with right hand. Worked fine.


Yup. Our trainer actually taught us to click, count to 3, then give the treat. The click is the marker for correct behavior, the treat is the reward. When teaching a new trick, I initially held the treat in my right hand to guide Riley in the right position (the "guiding" becomes the hand signal later on), and clicked with the left, than gave him the treat. As he understands the behavior, you end up hand signaling with the right (no treat), click left, and then take the treat out of your pocket or feed from the left. the idea is for them to associate the hand signal and verbal cue as the "ask" for a behavior, and not to constantly be guided by the treat. Then we were told to phase out treats but still give them occasionally. The way our trainer told it was "I don't get a paycheck every day I show up to work, but if I NEVER got paychecks, I'd stop showing up". So eventually you phase out treats, but still give them sporadically so your dog wants to listen to you because the possibility of a reward is always present.


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## RylieJames (Feb 3, 2016)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I always use a clicker with puppies and also whenever I am teaching a new behavior to an adult dog as well.  I usually fade out the clicker to ultimately use a marker word "yes!" so that I can have a similar effect when I don't have my clicker handy.


I did the same thing with my poodle. It worked like magic. Once she understood that the clicker sound meant she did the right thing, she picked up new tricks and skills in no time! Literally in a single training session we could teach her 2-3 new things. She was about 5-6 months old when we started doing this.

Once they're really good with their skills, you start clicking at each skill but not always treating. Then eventually you phase out the clicker and use a praise like "yes."


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

With this type of training, it definitely helps to have an "operant" dog. That is, a dog who will continually try things and offer new behaviors that can then be clicked. A dog who isn't nervous about trying new things.

Sadly, one result of "traditional" training can be that the dog worries about being wrong. Worries that an attempt to do something will result in a "leash pop" or a scolding. In clicker training, the "worst" thing that happens is that a click doesn't occur, so the dog is more willing to offer a variety of behaviors, to take risks. Traditional training can result in a cautious or hesitant working dog, one who looks nervous or "hangdog," or defaults to standing still, waiting to be lured or dragged into the desired position because trying new things has resulted in punishment.

I want my dog thinking, working, and moving. Puppy, you keep moving, and I'll let you know my favorite thing of what you're doing, and I'll let you know with a click (or another type of precise marker, like a word). I want you happy to work. I don't want you worried that at any moment a zap will come to let you know you're wrong; instead, a click will come to let you know you're on the right track.

That's the way I want to train.

--Q

*Of course, if safety is an issue, I don't mind using some aversives--a harsh "NO!" or whathaveyou, but in general, I want my dog to be working with joy and verve, always moving forward


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Quossum said:


> With this type of training, it definitely helps to have an "operant" dog. That is, a dog who will continually try things and offer new behaviors that can then be clicked. A dog who isn't nervous about trying new things.
> 
> Sadly, one result of "traditional" training can be that the dog worries about being wrong. Worries that an attempt to do something will result in a "leash pop" or a scolding. In clicker training, the "worst" thing that happens is that a click doesn't occur, so the dog is more willing to offer a variety of behaviors, to take risks. Traditional training can result in a cautious or hesitant working dog, one who looks nervous or "hangdog," or defaults to standing still, waiting to be lured or dragged into the desired position because trying new things has resulted in punishment.
> 
> ...



:adore::adore::adore:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

RylieJames said:


> I did the same thing with my poodle. It worked like magic. Once she understood that the clicker sound meant she did the right thing, she picked up new tricks and skills in no time! Literally in a single training session we could teach her 2-3 new things. She was about 5-6 months old when we started doing this.
> 
> *Once they're really good with their skills, you start clicking at each skill but not always treating. * Then eventually you phase out the clicker and use a praise like "yes."


If you don't reinforce after each and every click, every single time, the click stands a good chance of losing it's value as a conditioned reinforcer. A click and a reinforcer must be paired always. Even if I make a mistake and click by accident when it's clicking something I don't want, I must reinforce anyhow and go back later and undo it if I inadvertently trained something in I didn't mean to. Always, always follow your conditioned reinforcer with a reinforcer. It sounds like this hasn't happened yet with your dog. But it can if it's frequent enough that they lose that association. If your dog is doing something you've been teaching regularly, well, you don't need to reinforce at all for every correct response. Or you can just give a friendly "good" if you like. When they don't get a response from you and they know the behavior, they'll tend to try harder next time to make it even better. Then you click/treat for something about it you like better...faster recall, straighter sit etc. And you reinforce from then on for only the best responses.

To try to make it more clear, once the behavior is well learned, you can then go onto a fixed reinforcement schedule for a few times, which kind of sets the behavior, then a variable reinforcement schedule, say. That is not a totally random reinforcement delivery, but like slot machines work. There are an average number of correct responses for every reinforcer. So it might wind up going something like this: every 3rd sit gets reinforced, every 5th, every 2nd, every 8th, every 4th and so on. A reinforcer is not only a food treat. To qualify as a reinforcer (which is what increases the likelihood of repeating that behavior in the future) it must do two things; one: it must change behavior. And two: it must be something the dog absolutely loves and I mean LOVES. 

I love Quossum's post because it point out exactly why I don't like when I hear about people being harsh or punishing with their dogs. It not only isn't nice, but it will slow down their ability to learn. Dogs that are "operant"...that are better able to learn, are smarter are this way because they are not afraid to throw new behaviors. (the use of a conditioned reinforcer is actually_ classical_ conditioning and _operant _is the cause and effect of a behavior) The more they try, the higher the odds they'll hit on the rewarding behavior. I too want my dogs to try things. They might try something that isn't what I wanted. But if I scold _too_ much, it tends to not only stop the behavior I don't want, but stop all behavior. Or if the dog has been raised with a lot of scolding or punishments, they don't respond as well to PR training. The two just don't work together very well, contrary to what a lot of "balanced" trainers think. If dogs get a lot of punishment, they simply tend to stop behaving much at all. They shut down and don't look forward. Any degree of shut-down or "learned helplessness" tends to slow down learning. I don't want that.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't always have a clicker in my hand...only when I have it mind to be actively teaching something. I taught my Doberman to bow simply by capturing him when he stretched. I paired his stretching with his bum in the air with, "booooowwww" and I bend down in a sort of bow too and a flourishing sweep with my hand. I wasn't in a hurry to teach this. Just every time he did it, I did that and gave him a little verbal good boy and a pat. It wasn't a terrific reinforcer by any means. But he still learned it. It came to be that I could elicit this bow and we'd both take a bow together. I'm sure it would have been a speedier thing if I had done more scientifically. lol.

Here are some of the reasons in a nutshell I like clicker training or at least the concepts. 


1. Accurately identifies the correct behavior. 
2. Works well from a distance. 
3. Helps animal focus on the behavior. 
4. *Defines the END of a behavior, making it easier to get longer duration. * (Love this one for duration. I can gradually ask for a longer stay and click/treat after each rep that I've gotten a little longer stay from my dog. The dog then understands that he WILL get the click/treat AFTER he patiently waits a little longer than last time. This is what I did with my threshold training to keep the dogs from rushing out the door.)

5. Easily transferred from person to person. 
6. Does not rely on force or punishment. 
7. You do not have to be physically stronger than your dog. 
8. Will not lead to aggression or avoidance behaviors. 
9. Can be used to shape a variety of behaviors. 
10. It is REALLY FUN for you and your dog!!!! The clicker, because of its accuracy in telling your dog WHAT behavior earned a treat, maximizes learning!! They learn *HOW to learn* so much better than with compulsion. I consider my dogs and myself a team, a partnership simply made up of of two species, not one where one species pushes the other around. I don't see one species as superior to the other...just different.


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## Arya's Toys (Feb 24, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Yes, I understand about clicker training and it's correct use. I've been a fan for a very long time.


It seems as though you know a lot about clicker training, Poodlebeguiled.

I am trying it with my Xena, but cant give any feedback on it yet.

Let us know your thoughts if you decide to give it a try.


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