# Oh oh



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

None of our dogs get sleepy from Benadryl. I bet Babykins and you will do great this weekend. Will be cheering you on!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You have to give a dog a very high dose of benadryl to get sleepiness. Have fun! I wish you great success.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Thank you. 

It’s a relief to hear that I’m probably not making her sleepy with the Benadryl.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Good luck!


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Best of luck Skylar - I know you and Babykins will do well.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Thanks everyone. I’m hopeful that this won’t affect our working.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Hope you have a great weekend and bring home ribbons!


Johanna


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh Skylar...almost missed this. Best of luck this weekend. I hope you do well and most of all that you both have fun. :first:


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Oh, I hope you have a blast at this trial. I’m cheering for you.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Good luck!


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Wishing you good luck, hope everything aligns for a good trial weekend!


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Thank you everyone. We’re going to give it our best. I just realized that I’m lucky it’s our obedience trial. 

We have a nose work trial coming up and a stuffy nose for a nose work trial is probably not a good thing? I realize I have to go back to the vet and discuss this because the Babykins has woken up with a snot filled nose.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Skylar, Just wanted to wish you well!


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## mashaphan (Sep 4, 2014)

Best of Luck!:cheers2::cheers2::first:


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

We didn't qualify. At the very end she refused to lay down for the last exercise.

This is the second time we have competed at the Novice level. The first time, last fall was because we got our Beginner Novice quickly and I had paid for another run so I moved up to Novice. 

The same problem - she did her heeling off and on leash - off leash was really nice. Stand for Exam was perfect as was the recall and get your leash. We qualified and came back for the long sits and downs with the other Novice dogs. The long sit was perfect... and then comes our problem...... my dog won't lay down for the long down. This is the very last exercise, one minute later and you're done competing. She won't go down. I even dropped my hand down to the floor and pretended to lure with food - which is another no no. Once down she stays in position - it's just getting her to go down.

Last fall she wouldn't go down, I left her in a stand and walked into position and stood with everyone else - I knew she would hold her stand position and I didn't want to mess up everyone else in the ring by leaving. We were disqualified because she was standing.

My current trainer knew this and she told me something that was wrong. She said I could pull her feet down from a sit and lose points. Well you can't touch your dog - that's an automatic disqualification. We disqualified. The judge was really nice. He told me that if she didn't go down and I have waited - he would say, put her down - and then I could pull her down by her collar. I'm showing before this judge again tomorrow so this is the plan. I don't know if other judges will agree with this, but this is my back up plan for tomorrow. If she had gone down we would have been in first place. 

My dog sometimes just refuses to lay down - I've been working for a year on this. I have her go down in the park, in stores, everywhere we train, on the street, in front of other dogs, noisy places..... you name it and I treat and praise her. But she has some kind of problem with going down, especially when I'm close. I don't know why but I know with nerves in the ring, well it's hard to get her to lay down. We practiced before going into the ring - heeling and going into lay down from sit. Every time she went down before we went into the ring. Groan. 

On the good side - the building was really nice, quiet, not lots of people and a pleasure to show in - I will go back to show here - in fact I go back tomorrow.

While I was scared, I managed to be a little less nervous, took deep breathes and tried to relax. We kept good focus and she was always under control in the ring. Babykins is rock solid with stand for exam, recall and get the leash that I was able to be more relaxed and more confident. I tried to take that into the long sits and down.

We go back tomorrow, and I'm feeling positive about today, even though we didn't qualify and the judge has given me a way to legally get her down if she won't go down with a voice and hand signal.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Oh, rats, you were so close! But, you have the right attitude about it. How many minutes are long sits and downs? We only practice one minute in my class, and Frosty is not reliable for the down yet. Was the floor hard and/or cold? 

Wishing you the best of luck for tomorrow. Come on, Babykins! :love2:


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Oh, that's a bummer. Sorry that didn't work. It's good that you're feeling positive, though, because you did a fantastic job with the rest of Novice. Maybe lying down with other dogs around feels vulnerable and scary when your dog is so little? How does she do when you have a down during rally? Does she struggle?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Oh, rats, you were so close! But, you have the right attitude about it. How many minutes are long sits and downs? We only practice one minute in my class, and Frosty is not reliable for the down yet. Was the floor hard and/or cold?
> 
> Wishing you the best of luck for tomorrow. Come on, Babykins! :love2:


The floors were nice rubber mats over linoleum - they had good traction and when we practiced before going into the ring she didn't hesitate to go down. They seemed similar to the mats in our obedience training space, except a blue green instead of black. I don't think the flooring was the problem since she won't go down in class either at times.

Last year they changed it made sits and downs much easier. They are now similar to what we did for our CGC - it's only 1 minute and you're only 6' away and on leash. Dogs have to be I think 6' apart and if there is a second row behind you I think that is also 6' apart.

Before the changes the sits and downs were longer and off leash and we had to be on the other side of the ring - so they were more demanding. She's always been good with the stay.

At home we worked up to 6 minute stays sitting and 6 minutes laying down. She also will stay sitting in the kitchen when I leave to room to go to the garage or other room in the house. It's handy for practicing nose work to leave her sitting in the kitchen while I set up the hides in another room - then she doesn't know where they are hidden, she has to use her sense of smell to find them. I was preparing her for the long sits and downs in open where you leave the building for 5 minutes. I'm happy that the new rules changed because that always made me nervous, some dogs had been attacked by other dogs while the owners were not nearby to control their dog. It's been replace with a stand your dog and leave the ring to get your leash and then return to your dog and leash and leave the ring. Much easier, but also much less dangerous.

When I first started taking obedience seriously as a competitive sport I had a trainer who said that she knew a top competitor who took a year to teach her dog sits and downs - she would take one more step away from the dog each day and added a few seconds each day - by the end of the year the dog was solid. I did something similar - baby steps. Towards the end I started to sit in a chair because 6 minutes is a long time to stand.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Click-N-Treat said:


> Oh, that's a bummer. Sorry that didn't work. It's good that you're feeling positive, though, because you did a fantastic job with the rest of Novice. Maybe lying down with other dogs around feels vulnerable and scary when your dog is so little? How does she do when you have a down during rally? Does she struggle?


I'm proud of the part we did well. And no matter how she does I've always left the ring feeling positive. In my first competition, I saw a few people leave the ring so angry at their dog and I knew I never wanted to be like that. We leave happy and looking for jackpot reward no matter what happens.

I do think she does feel vulnerable and scared - being in the down position is the most vulnerable. But she's been taking classes for more than two years and she's had all kinds of dogs sitting next too her - and all kinds of dogs who couldn't sit and would stand or move and their handlers would have to go back and stand close or reset them. She did have a Great Dane dog that we have never met on her right and the other dogs were her size and we've been in class with them. Once I get her down - she stays. Darn dog, it's getting her into that down position.

In rally competition she sometimes goes down and sometimes not. In WCRL you lose points if you give a second command AND you lose points if you repeat a sign AND you lose a lot of points if you repeat a sign and don't do it the second time. So when she doesn't go down in Rally competition, my approach has to just been to move onto the next sign since I might lose more than just the original points lost. I would only repeat a sign if I thought I had a chance of her doing it.

We're competing in AKC rally for the first time next weekend. If she doesn't go down, I'll give her a second command and hope that she does. 

This not going down is a serious problem for us. Maybe you have some fresh ideas on training it?


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Yes, not lying down on command is going to be a problem moving forward. DOWN is a word Babykins associates with doing something she doesn't enjoy. So, I think the first thing I'd try is teaching another word for lying flat on her belly like the sphinx. 

The next thing I'd try is training the classic, stick em up, bang game. Sit pretty, bang, fall down. Unlike the classic version, we don't want to teach her to down on her side, but to collapse into a sphinx. You'll see this as a fun trick to train, because it is. More importantly, Babykins will see it as a fun game, too. Eventually, you'll go directly to the bang part where the dog falls down. Walk around your house, randomly telling Babykins, BANG, wait for her to fall, and then have a happy party afterward. Always act like this is the best game possible. And tell her, "Oh, this is your favorite! Bang!"

The whole point is to train Babykins that down is highly reinforcing and fun to do. Create pathways in her brain that trigger feelings of delight with the physical action of lying down. It's a trick, Babykins, nothing more serious than a trick. Good luck!


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

Not sure this is applicable here but I know from my Dalmatian Ollie - who did not like "down" he loved "sit" the way yours seems to love "stand". So for him WHERE he was in a line-up of group "downs" made a difference. So if you have a chance of practicing this in a group see if the two end spots make a difference. In other words we progressed with Ollie in the group from "downs" held on either side (didn't make a difference to him which side - we tried that just to see if it was site specific) sides = where he only has one dog next to him - and we slowly progressed to downs held in the middle with lots of dogs on either side of him. This took almost 6 months to correct.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh dear that is a shame. I hope it is better today. If the mats are from a show superintendent like Info Dog or Rau be aware that they may stink from the dogs' perspectives since I doubt they ever really get washed. If they are used for both conformation and obedience/rally they will have smells from bait treats along with whatever ring soiling might have happened. These things get spot cleaned obviously but that doesn't mean the dogs can't smell past offenses. At the Rhode Island shows we were at recently the mats were the show superintendents. At various times I saw dogs pee, poo and puke all over the place including in the conformation rings.


As to training the down, the thing to remember is that a down with you at a distance is probably one of the hardest things you can ask them to do. There are dogs all around them, potentially on both sides and behind them. When I first started working on novice downs with Javelin he even had a hard time with just one unknown to him dog next to him and also with Lily on a down behind him. Down is a very vulnerable position made harder by having to do it around other dogs. In my novice classes when students have a hard time getting their dogs to go to the down I have them lure it and if they have a hard time staying on the down I have the handlers stay very close in front of the dog and have them back away roughly 6 inches at a time. I also have them teach the dog to leave a treat placed on the floor in front of them about one foot away from their front feet. Leaving that treat until they are released to it after you return and someone says exercise finished can be super powerful. You can also make sure that if you are at a show with friends that you have ideally two of them practice a group down with you before you go in to do the trial sit and down.


Click I agree that you ideally want the dog to think a down is something fun to do not something to dread, but I do not want my dogs to do sphinx drops for anything other than drop on recall in open, drops in the open command discrimination, moving down in rally or the utility drop from stand. For down stays I much prefer to see a dog over on one hip and ideally with one front foot tucked in. This is especially useful while you are training it since you will have intention moves like untucking the front foot and moving off that hip that have to happen before the dog actually breaks the down. If they are in a sphinx down they can pop up with no intention moves. The difference is that for a down stay my order needs to remain in this location and this position until I return to you, a STAY order). For a sphinx drop I am telling the dog I will tell you something else to do without returning to you (at least not right away, a WAIT order). Dogs do know the difference between stay and wait if you teach them that there is a difference.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Because I eventually want to compete in obedience with Zoe I use the commands "lie" (the sphinx position - for banding the topknot) and "flat" (meaning lie on one side for brushing). The "down" command is used at home when I want Zoe to like down in any position for some length of time such as when we are eating.

I use "wait" to mean "stand/sit/lie there for a short time while I go through the door/gate or at the start of an agility run. The "stay" command is for obedience only - I have not found a use for it in day-to-day life, but might need it some day.

Another useful command is "off" - meaning get off the bed/sofa/chair or quit jumping up on people.

Catherine, I completely agree with you about not wanting the sphinx position for an obedience long down. My daughter had a toy poodle that she showed in obedience who always did the long down on his back - a very safe position! He got lots of laughs for it so it got reinforced.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Johanna I recently stewarded at a trial where one of the classes our ring had was novice A. There was only one handler (she actually is a vet). The judge gave her the option of doing her stays with the B dogs since some dogs actually do better with some company around them. she said she was fine with doing it herself. Her dog is a nice working terv who lied down and promptly did his best imitation of a dead dog flat out on his side head on the floor and legs extended. There was no way in the world that dog would have broken that down without a ton of intention moves.


And yeah I never say stay to any dog in the house. It is a special use order. My off means the same thing yours does.


As a minor stress reliever when Lily and I got the CDX title leg at a poodle specialty in December 2012 so old rule with five minute out of sight for the group down we were the only A team so we did it with the B dogs. One of those teams had a sneaky dog who would often sit up in the middle of the long down and then lie down again just before the five minutes was ending (maybe on the judges order to have the steward bring us back). The man whose dog it was was probably even more relieved than I was when the judge told him he qualified. So glad those out of sight group stays are in the past.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm exhausted and I'll read the responses tomorrow and respond.

We didn't qualify today.... and this was all my fault. My proofing trainer came just before we went into the ring and I had told her my problem about the going down. So she had me practice in several places near the ring - on the ring matting, on a rough rug by the front door and on the linoleum floor. I had already been practicing at the back of the crating area on the same floor material where she did go down.

BTW Babykins knows what the word "drop" means - I can say drop either close to her or 10' away and she will do the fold back drop. She also knows the word "down" because I first trained it and when she was refusing to go down in class, I trained the word drop. She responds to verbal or hand signals or both. I need to somehow train her confidence I guess in dropping. She often gets jackpots for her drops, tons of praise. And she's doing the drop on recall and signal exercises.

But that wasn't our problem today. When we were practicing by the gate there was someone waiting to go after me with a GSD that was so out of control, jumping up and down, spinning - all on it's own, not something the handler was encouraging. She also didn't qualify although I didn't watch her.

I don't know if it was that dog or something else. My proofing trainer said our heeling on leash was really good. My problem came with the off leash heeling. She didn't want to follow me back to the start line, so I gently put my hand in her collar to direct her where I needed her to be.

I never trained doing this. She normally goes with me - follows me so I can then get her into heel and ready. However in agility if she breaks a stay, I drag her back to the start by her collar. She associates this dragging as she has to stay until released. Oops - this is not the way to start heel off leash.

She was slow to start off heel and I had to call "heel" twice and I could see she wasn't responding properly. I knew then and there we had disqualified. We did all the other exercises perfectly - stand for exam, recall, get your leash. If you are disqualified in the first part you don't get to go into the ring for sits and downs so we never got to see if she would go down.

I realize I have to train pulling her around by the collar followed by heeling off leash a fun routine. In fact I have to train holding her collar to move her as part of our routine. I feel so stupid, why I never thought to do this - and it was never mentioned in any class including when we talking about ring choreography. I practiced having her move with me and getting into heel position for the next exercise - I never practiced what to do if she didn't move around with me. 

I was happy with the way I moved both Saturday and Sunday in the heeling. Especially how I handled when the judge called the pattern - I'm getting a little more relaxed about this. My proofing trainer did say the good news was she liked how I walked the course and held my body.

So it wasn't a complete loss - there were things we did well that I feel I accomplished and something major that I now know I need to train.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Aww Skylar, I'm sorry you and Babykins didn't Q today  It sounds like the weekend was a really good learning experience, though. There are so many things that can go wrong in obedience. I guess that is what makes the Qs really rewarding. I spectated today at a local trial and only 1 out of 7 I believe Q'd in Novice A and B.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Yes, it's deceptively hard - quite the challenge. So much to learn beyond the basic exercises.

I forgot to add one good thing happened. Those of us who don't qualify put our arm band number in a basket for a drawing. I won - I won a free entry to their trial next year. I never win anything, and I loved this place that I already was planning to return next year even it was just for more experience in the ring. Bonus was the woman who gave it to me also has poodles - so we had a wonderful poodle discussion.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

NO NO NO don't train putting your hand on her collar as a way to move her around. You can't do that in open or higher or in any B class without getting major handler error points off. This is why holding the collar to move the dog has never been mentioned in a class where ring choreography was being discussed. If you were to do that repeatedly you could probably point out repeatedly if you were doing it to deal with slow responses etc.


Your ring choreography should be about moving around the ring without touching the dog or her collar. If you end an exercise with some stress showing have a trick up your sleeve that will up her happy factors, relieve a bit of physical stress and such. You can use a jump up release after you hear exercise finished or a spin as you start moving. I release Javelin to a jump up (give hugs) which lets us make eye contact. I give him a little quick rub on the shoulders along with good boy immediately followed by his set up order which is get close and then I tell him with me to move along to the next exercise. All of that takes just a couple of seconds, keeps him under control, gives him feedback and is unlikely to cause any points off thought for any but the most picky of judges.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I’m sorry you didn’t Q, but happy you won the nonQ raffle! I’ve never won that....and I’ve had a fair amount of entries. 

These sports keep you humble!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I never win anything in those nonQ raffles either, but that is a really nice prize. On the rare occasions I do win things they are usually things I just donate back, like gift cards from places I never ever shop.


You have a very wonderful and practical attitude about your nonQs in seeing what went well, understanding what didn't work and taking all of that back to your training with a winners attitude. This will get better.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

​
Click I trained it as down and then switched to the word drop. When I switched to drop, I used tons of the best treats and praise. I did try a version of puppy sit ups - toss food for her to run and get then have her down for another treat then released to get a tossed treat and down again. She also has gotten a ton of treats for dropping. She's also dropping on recall and dropping on the signal exercise. We also run around and randomly I ask her to go down and again lots of treats and praise.

​I know Catherine is right about training a rolled over on one hip down for the stay - but at this point I'll take anything.and I think adding a rolled hip might add a layer of confusion when the whole issue of going down is a problem.​

​Moni,​ She's been doing downs with all kinds of dogs for almost 3 years with all kinds of dogs including large puppies that pop up and down. We used to do the old novice downs off leash with handlers across the room without problem. She's also been in a ring with dogs she doesn't know when we've been to run throughs. When you are in a competition you have no say in where or what order you will be. And she always stays down once she is down.

Catherine, This club owns their own mats and they use them for this event, clean them then roll them up and store them. I know several people from Utility and Open were complaining about something in one corner drawing their dog - but we walked by that area several times heeling and it's also where she stood for the recall and she didn't seem to be distracted there - no sniffing etc. I do worry about "smells" because occasionally she will sniff. There was a dog that zoomed in the ring and pulled up the tape that was used to mark positions after we left the ring.

I'm glad we don't have to do that old open sits and downs. We practice at home leaving her sitting or down while I go to another room - usually nose work setting out hides because I do think it's a good behavior, just glad she doesn't have to face misbehaving dogs off leash without their handlers nearby.

Babykins has been doing long sits and downs for almost three years between various classes - and we used to do the old novice where we were across the room. Once down she never gets up. And she's going down for the signal exercise. It seems to be more going down while she is next to me. It's not only for the long downs - it's also in rally where it's only us in the ring.

We had been practicing what to do in-between exercises - but I need to completely rethink it because I definitely didn't keep her attention. I wasn't doing any circles or jump ups but I realize I need to add something fun. Since we do the 5 cookie game and that ends with a jump up to touch for a treat I think that's what I need to build in. I'm glad you pointed out not to train moving her around the ring with her collar - yes I need a method that will work and take us through open and utility.

Johanna - so many words, for so many commands - it can get confusing. I can't imagine the look on people's faces seeing your daughter's tpoo laying on it's back for the down stay. That's amazing. I know Babykins will never be so relaxed that she will roll on her back in a competition long down.

MaizieFrosty most of the dogs at this trial didn't Q either.

CarolineK - haha you're right, these sports keep up humble. It's also a great bonding with friends - everyone has stories about when their dog almost qualified.......


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