# how accurately can breeders predict adult sizes and temperaments?



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Although a breeder's dogs will in general share a number of traits and that breeder will be familiar with those traits, I don't see how any breeder could guarantee things like size (will definitely be smaller than the parents) or whether the puppy will grow up to be cuddly or not. (By the way, I think "active" and "cuddly" are opposite traits so it would be harder to end up with a dog that is both active AND cuddly. My poodle is active and loving, but not cuddly.) As far as accepting new dogs into a household I think that would be mostly training and socialization on your part.


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

Oh I'm not looking for guaranties on these, I'm wondering how confident breeders feel when they make a recommendation based on a client's preferences.

As for active and cuddly being opposites, really? Maybe I'm just using the wrong terms. My toys wanted to zoom a lot and kill birds, but in-between they wanted to sit in your lap and be stroked, brushed, or fed treats. So many poodles I know are that way.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm rather wary of temperament tests, so would always take those with a large pinch of salt. I am also unsure about how a pup could be smaller than his parents - the average of the two, perhaps, but smaller than both? Ummmm ... 

Having said all that, if a puppy had parents who both displayed the temperament I wanted, and were both of approximately the size and type I wanted, then YIPPEE! I might now be checking for a puppy I was happy to take home...


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## catsaqqara (May 20, 2011)

They can't guarantee size, In Jaden's litter they ranged from the parents size to a few inches taller and as puppies there is no way to tell.
Jaden is both very cuddly and very active, But his traits are present in his "family", so a good place to start is the parents. If the parents have the traits you want then there is a good chance the puppies will. 

I believe Jaden's breeder was able to tell he was a cuddler and what position he was in the pack(how dominant) he also has many personality traits that must be genetic because they line up perfectly with the personality of his mom and littermates. He came to me at 11 weeks.

I think dominance would affect accepting new dogs a little but mostly it will be socialization.

Also she didn't to temperament testing, she just spent a lot of time with them getting to know them.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I agree with fjm. I'd be paying a lot of attention to both the temperament and the size of the parents, and I'd be skeptical about any claims that the pup would be smaller than its parents.

I was looking for a small spoo, so I asked a lot of questions about size. One breeder advised me to look for a pup with a compact body, but she also said that you could not be sure. She had seen small pups grow into large adults. I ended up getting the smallest pup (with a compact body) from a litter that came from a small mom (21 inches) and a bigger dad (about 25 inches). My girl is now 6 months and 19 inches, so she will probably be the size of her mom, but almost certainly not smaller. 

Regarding temperament, I've known spoos who vary tremendously in their general energy level. I was looking for a relatively calm dog, and so I asked breeders about how calm the parents were. Dogs that are promoted as good therapy dogs are likely to be calmer than dogs that make good agility dogs. Of course, there are differences within the litter, and the breeder can advise you about that.

IMO, the best way to get a dog to accept new dogs is to make sure there is lots of continuing socialization so that the puppy learns how to communicate with other dogs and enjoy their presence. Also, best to introduce a new dog when the first one is still young.


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

Interesting, thanks guys. I was wondering how to weight that vs my preferences in terms of coat color, sex, and just which pup I like. Doesn't seem very simple, that process. I still don't know quite how that works. Maybe some of you could relate experiences? How specific do breeders get when they discuss a pup's probable temperament? And did you just go with that, or did you say "thanks but I prefer this one"?

The size thing is interesting. I have known litters with huge variance in puppy sizes (when grown up that is). I'm not just talking runts, I know litters bred by reputable breeders that produced monsters alongside petites. Am I to understand this is not to be considered normal and I shouldn't count on it? Sort of in a similar spot to peppersb, I cannot get a large dog, 21" 40# is too big (both parents of the std litter), and I was wondering if a significantly smaller pup might appear.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

There are plenty of trade-offs, that's for sure. I wanted a black or blue poodle but ended up with a cream. My girl's parents are both black, and when I went to see the pups they were 7 weeks and 3 black girls and 1 cream girl were still available. The little cream one crawled into my lap and looked up at me. I tried to tell her that I preferred black, but to no avail. I was smitten! She was one of the spunkiest in the litter and clearly very curious about her environment and the new people who were visiting. She was also the smallest in the litter. So I put a deposit down on her and came back a week later to pick her up. Both of her parents were described to me as being very sweet and calm, and that's the way they appeared to me when I met them.

If 21 inches, 40 pounds is too big for you, I think that will be hard to find a spoo pup that will reliably be under that limit. I just think it is hard to tell what the adult size will be. Maybe you should look into a litter that is specifically bred as a moyen/klein? Or a mini? Initially, I really wanted a moyen/klein, but the only breeders I could find were far away from me and therefore hard to evaluate. But I think there are some on the west coast. So maybe that would be a possibility for you?


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## Poodle Head (Sep 12, 2011)

In my experience with the spoo I have now (she's 7 months), the breeder was pretty accurate with everything - and ultimately made the final call in who got which puppy. I was lucky enough to meet both parents - the sire came bounding into the room ready to jump and play, the dam was soft and sweet and sat in front of me looking to be loved. She did do temperament testing and said to just use it as an added piece of info, but not to put too much stock in it. My girl came out with mostly all threes, some fours, and a two. I'd say hers was dead on. She certainly needs her exercise and training, but when she's tired, she is a snuggler. We were actually anticipating a different puppy, but when we arrived she told us that she made a last minute change based on meeting one of the other owners. They were a little older and in a retirement community. We have a big fenced in yard and could handle a more exuberant puppy. She knows the puppies best, so I trusted her instincts. We got the right puppy for us, and I hope the other owners feel the same way.
I would think that size is more difficult to predict... and don't really think it's possible to say that a puppy would end smaller than his/her parents.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I like to meet the puppy's relatives to help me see what a likely temperment will be. I do think that good breeders are interacting with the pups so much that they have a very accurate idea of their personality traits. Height is hard and I would look to the size of the parents and grandparents to be the best predictor. You need to decide what is important to use. To me personality was more important than coat color. When it came down to picking the actual puppy I did have the breeder make the final determination. With my Aussie I fell in love with his grandfather and told the breeder I wanted the puppy with his temperment. The breeder knew just which pup we should have and she definately made the right choice for us. Once you pick a good breeder it is good to be guided by their advice. No one will know their dogs better than they do.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

I can only speak from experience, and it's quite possible my breeder was psychic, but she was spot on regarding both my MPOO's size _and _temperament. 

I met both parents, and she told me my pup would favor his father in all things poodle. He's a precise duplicate, or as close as one can be. (I tried to "adopt" the father when he was neutered. He was an amazing dog, and I still want him.) It was the same with my second MPOO. He was an unexpected addition, but she nailed his size/temperament too. 

So, to answer your question: I think breeders can come up with a profile based on the dam/sire, and also their observations. They may also temperament test (Volhard, etc.) when the pups are of age. Will they be 100% accurate? Not sure. Unless they're psychic like my breeder.

I'm now tempted to consider astrology. I want an oversized black mini male born on 22 September (just like Alex).  (J/K. Sort of.)


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Nickel's breeder knew he's going to be big but he's surprised when I told him Nickel weighed 12 lbs at 4 months and kept asking me if that was correct. He told me Nickel would be around 18 lbs and now Nickel is full grown and weighs 20 lbs. So to me it's pretty accurate.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

The only singular experience I have to offer is that Chagall's breeder was spot-on in identifying his temperament. She told me he was a "marshmellow," and I can't think of a better description; he's soft and sweet (and squeezable, too!). I met his dam and maternal grand dam, who were total sweethearts, before meeting him. As for size, he_ loomed _over his littermates from the start. I knew he had a large Russian ancestor a few generations back, and I was game to have larger mini. I would say his breeder nailed it!:nod:


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

Thanks all, I find these anecdotes interesting and helpful. Tbh the thought of picking out one puppy from a bunch, that seems impossible. And no matter how meticulously you plan, no matter what strategy you come up with, you could run into peppersb's situation where the pup chooses for you lol.

I think that I am not going to stress the size issue at all, and I think I'll probably weigh the breeder's rec very heavily, if not just go with it outright. We chatted briefly (it's too early yet to get into detailed talk) and the breeder seemed to think the broad outline of my needs would be pretty easy to match.

And unless pup turned out to be cujo or something, I could deal with most personalities I think. You might have to walk more than you had anticipated; or you might not be winning agility titles like you'd hoped; but a disastrous mismatch, that's an extremely rare scenario, no?


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Temperament is more reliable to predict than size.

Our puppies were evaluated. Of 8 puppies, 4 scored above 5 across the board; the rest had 5's, 6's, 4's and 3's. The white bitch I picked after the whelping scored the highest across the board and is preparing for her first show in two weeks. Her temperament is just like her father's (he is a conformation champion) and so is her structure. We guessed her to be bigger in size like her father as well and so far she is. Because we spend so much time with the pups as they develop, we could see from early on that this girl was special.

We spend a great deal of time with our puppies from birth until we find the perfect home for them. We can tell you about each puppies temperament and what we believe they will be like as adults. We can give you their strengths and their weaknesses. We can tell you if they are showing signs of being good at agility, retrieving, or posses the temperament to be a good therapy dog. Some love the water and would make a perfect match with an outdoors person who loves to hike, swim and boat. Some did not have an affinity for the water but were excellent at other things. We definitely match a puppies temperament to a buyers lifestyle. If we have more than one puppy with the appropriate temperament for them, then they get to spend as much time as they want with them while we watch them interact. One man spent almost an entire day with the puppies and us before choosing between two. It is imperative that the match be right. If we have a gut feeling that one particular pup is going to be the best match, then we tell the buyer that it is the puppy for them.

We had one pup that scored high and could have been conformation ring bound, but she ended up quieter like our foundation dogs that we purchased for therapy work. Because of her quiet nature, she was not suited for the ring and also needed a quiet home with a gentle hand. She stayed with us until she was near 5-months-old until the perfect older couple came for her. She bonded with them and their year old poodle immediately! 

Our puppy parents and relatives are all here for people to interact with when they come to look at puppies. We want them to see their temperaments for themselves. If we bred out to a dog as we did this last litter, we cannot have him here, but we can describe his temperament well as it is apparent in his puppies who take after him. 

Size is somewhat predictable but never guaranteed. Our dogs are between 23" to 26" and weigh from approximately 45 lbs to 53 lbs. The stud we bred too was 26" and a little heavier than our dogs. We know that in his background there is a ch bitch who was a very petite girl. In our dogs backgrounds there are a few dogs that have made the 26" height. So we knew we had to take that into consideration when asked about size. We will offer a range of what we believe a puppy will end up, but we never guarantee it. There are too many variables. 

I think when looking for a puppy that good health, temperament and a good match for your lifestyle should be at the top of the list. Be sure that all testing has been done on the parents and that their hips are good. Then size might be the next important thing for you because you may live in a small apartment or have other restrictions. Although people most often go for color first, I think it should be at the bottom of the list. If you are lucky, you may get everything you are looking for in your puppy, but leave room to make some adjustments if needed._


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

Thank you spoospirit for your very interesting post. As a poodle owner, I've always wanted to know more about what happened before the puppy came home with me, and you provided a very descriptive glimpse into that time period. I find it fascinating that good breeders can evaluate each puppy and predict which ones will be best suited for different pursuits, including the show ring, and match puppies to new homes with such accuracy.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

It is hard to predict size for sure.. I have a size that I like and all of my dogs are in that range. But genetics are genetics. So sometimes that litter will range in size from an inch or two inches. Usually this is not the case but it has happened ... Temperament testing is not very accurate. I have done this in the past and the babies were definitely what the test says. I microchip at 6 weeks have a scanner and take copious notes. So when someone is here choosing the baby I can refer to my notes....I scan assign a collar color and we go from there .. it is usually right on ...CT that is true. When I do have to choose for someone, I take that very seriously and take into consideration all that comes to play . I will video and talk on the video ...Explain to the puppy family that this is the baby that does this and that.. WE get on the phone together and go over the video...And so on ... I have had great success in doing it this way..


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