# Undocked tails and the AKC?



## spindledreams

UKC is a bit more in touch with the times. Their standard says 


> The tail is straight, set high, and customarily docked to a length proportionate to the size of the dog. Whether standing or moving, the tail is carried erect.
> Serious Faults: Low tail set, tail curled or carried over the back.


Then at the end of the standard they include the following


> _The docking of tails and cropping of ears in America is legal and remains a personal choice. However, as an international registry, the United Kennel Club, Inc. is aware that the practices of cropping and docking have been forbidden in some countries. In light of these developments, the United Kennel Club, Inc. feels that no dog in any UKC event, including conformation, shall be penalized for a full tail or natural ears._


I know you may not be interested in showing UKC at this time but it does show that standards can change. If the Poodle Club decides that there needs to be some mention of tail carriage and the fact that undocked tails are acceptable then the AKC standard could have changed by the time you get back stateside. Either way I don't think I would hesitate to at least try in AKC with undocked dog and see what happens. The show docks have gotten longer and longer some are now so long they may as well not be docked.


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## momtymztu

I don't have enough knowledge regarding the poodle world yet to be able to give you much of an answer as far as AKC poodles goes, but I do know that in many other traditionally docked breeds international dogs (or even US born and bred dogs) that are undocked are doing better and better and gaining more acceptance all the time. 

I am a little more familiar with the Silky world. In Silky Terriers there is one breeder who has stopped docking altogether and her dogs are finishing easily and even climbing the ranks in the breed and all breed standings. Her dogs do show internationally as well, so docking them would limit her options. Many members of the Silky Terrier Club of America are fighting to keep the traditions of docking alive but I think in the end they are fighting a losing battle. 

I imagine most of the standards for traditionally docked/cropped breeds will eventually have to reflect some tolerance towards naturally tailed specimens. Even if it takes a while for he standards to change, I suspect the judges will become more accepting as more natural tails enter their rings. 

I say, go for it...


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## Aubrey

The dog will be shown in the UKC, but since I know they accept "whole" dogs, I didn't even think to ask/talk about it haha.


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## Countryboy

Aubrey said:


> The dog will be shown in the UKC, but since I know they accept "whole" dogs, I didn't even think to ask/talk about it haha.


Well u might be looking in slightly the wrong direction even now. The AKC would not be the ones to set the rules. They would go by the standards set by the breed clubs . . . such as the PCA.

And even so... this issue is in flux right now. So who knows what the standards will be when u get here...

Best of luck!


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## Aubrey

I was talking about the UKC in that post- they accept all breeds in their "natural" state, regardless of what the breed club dictates.
I am aware that it is the breed club that sets the standards- I was merely trying to get a feel of the situation in the states. Which, since most breed clubs take the stance of the owners/breeders/handlers into consideration, I figured here would be a good place to ask.


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## bigredpoodle

Aubrey said:


> I was talking about the UKC in that post- they accept all breeds in their "natural" state, regardless of what the breed club dictates.
> I am aware that it is the breed club that sets the standards- I was merely trying to get a feel of the situation in the states. Which, since most breed clubs take the stance of the owners/breeders/handlers into consideration, I figured here would be a good place to ask.


Most breeders in US follow AKC guidelines and most "Show breeders" will go by the standard set forth by the Breed club. Since you are looking for a "Show" dog you will have to expect that the tail will be docked..
Depending on what is in the ring with you , it could be a deterrent , esp if the dog is not balanced due to the over long tail..


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

If you have a superior dog, the tail is not going to make much difference. Quincy and Journey both have natural tails and both finished CKC with no trouble at all. I am being encouraged by many in the breed to send Journey to the US to pursue her American championship, and not one of them has even mentioned her natural tail, and they have all seen it and know it is undocked. I would've thought that a red with a full tail would've had two huge hurdles and she finished in four weekends.


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## bigredpoodle

Not all dogs enjoy the lovely balance that Journey has, she should finish AKC with not a trouble,Very Merry breeds lovely dogs ... Unfortunately this is not the case for alot of natural tail dogs , ( Balance that is )and later IT is surgery  Akc is a much more difficult venue to show in .. Trust me I know ...AKC was what the inquiry was I believe, and in CKC this is more the norm than not ( Natural tails ) as it is illegal in some Providences to crop tails.. ...
UKC a way different story . 
And it sounds as though she want to owner handle .. This is also much more difficult ..A natural tail... It can be handicap...Especially if it is gay ..this is an excusable ( from the ring ) fault AKC ...
To finish AKC in 4 weekends in (AKC division2) would entail defeating 48 bitches and that is 4 - four point majors.. . Thats a lot of bitches ...68 bitches in Division 1.. ..CKC is different point schedule..


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## Aubrey

I am looking at a Very-Merry puppy.


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## bigredpoodle

Good Choice ! They are in your area and she does have some nice dogs! What testing has been done ?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Well, you will be getting quality then! An undocked tail will not be a problem for you! Good luck, and p-l-e-a-s-e...lots of photos!!


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## outwest

Journey's full tail is very nice and she appears balanced to me. Perhaps the Very Merry dogs don't have as long a natural tail? Jazz has a very long dock and Journey's doesn't look that much longer than his. I have been asked a few times if his tail is docked or not. I think if the tail isn't too long and it isn't overly gay that it wouldn't be a huge obstacle here. There may be a few judges that won't put them up.


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## Aubrey

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Well, you will be getting quality then! An undocked tail will not be a problem for you! Good luck, and p-l-e-a-s-e...lots of photos!!


(S)he will be a niece/nephew to Journey, so I think you will be partial. :aetsch:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Aubrey said:


> (S)he will be a niece/nephew to Journey, so I think you will be partial. :aetsch:


Who ME????????????? I have yet to see a Very-Merry pup I was not very impressed with. Jitka has a really good eye and is focused on structure and health. :amen:


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## NOLA Standards

Much ado about tails, but ringside I have never heard it even commented on.

I HAVE heard comments on movement and carriage and overall structure.
Which is what you have to be concerned with.

Journey is a lovely bitch. Promise you that those noticing her tail fall much more into the pet owner/spectator group than the breeder, handler or owner handler group. Judges do not seem to mind much/really notice either...unless the dog doesn't carry their tail. That IS a problem!

European lines generally seem to have a bit more bone and body with not as much leg, but many of the lines have been used on both sides of the pond - so some of the noticeable type has altered a bit (IMO).

The balance referred to is the overall picture of the dog. A dog lacking neck with a full tail will not have the appearance of neck that a docked tail would help create (Think of seeing the entire dog at a glance.).

If you MUST fret, stress over getting a great pup/dog. 

Don't worry about the undocked tail!

Best Wishes.


Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Ditto what NOLA said!!

I have seen some hideous undocked tails, but I have been some hideous docked tails too. Jitka will not lead you astray. If she knows you want to show, she will help you choose a pup whose tail will be good enough to show without problems in North America. A full, fluffy tail that looks like a Basenji tail will not cut it in the ring, but I've not seen one of those in the ring here or in Europe (though I have seen them!)


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## spindledreams

There is a thread in one of my Facebook groups right now that is talking about showing undocked dogs in AKC of breeds that are normally docked. It has has been interesting reading. Thought you might like to read it and see the photos in it. https://www.facebook.com/groups/dogshowingandhandling/


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## Aubrey

spindledreams said:


> There is a thread in one of my Facebook groups right now that is talking about showing undocked dogs in AKC of breeds that are normally docked. It has has been interesting reading. Thought you might like to read it and see the photos in it. https://www.facebook.com/groups/dogshowingandhandling/


I've already been following it, thanks though!


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## spindledreams

I was surprised to see the comment about the Rottie with a full tail. I thought that was great wish someone would post a photo of it.


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## Aubrey

Yeah, the tailed Rottie people I know get excused from the ring more often then not. They occasionally enter when they will already be there for obedience or rally.
It's one of the reasons I have held off of getting a Rottie actually.


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## blkdog

I have a gorgeous eight month old cream standard with a natural tail. I have been taking him to a couple different training centers for conformation classes and not one person has mentioned his tail. I am not a fan of docking and I am so glad more and more breeders are leaving their puppies undocked. I have found that poodle breeders who do not show in conformation are more likely to not dock puppies in the U.S. rather than show breeders. However, in California, which is always ahead of the rest of the U.S. several show breeders are leaving intact tails. I have noticed at dog shows that poodle tails are getting longer and so it seems why dock if you can't even tell the tail is docked. I am hopeful that four years from now an undocked tail will be the norm.


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## Brian R

After watching how my poodle, Jade, uses her tail for running, cutting/turning and swimming, I would never dock the tail of a poodle that only competes in sports or is a pet and will never be shown in conformance. AKC will come around...slowly.


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