# Coat color question



## Blue Fox (Oct 22, 2008)

Ooooh oooooh get a silver WonderPup :smile: I don't know anything about genetics so I am no good to you at all, we love T to bits and his colour now is not important but next time I will be waiting for a silver :smile:


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

I know Chicky Chat and Roxy25 now have been doing research on the color genetics. Maybe one of them can give you an idea of where they recieved the info. Im curious to know as well but haven't yet asked. 

One thing to be careful of if you *don't* want a dilute color such as a cafe au lait is that breeder's might try to assure you the color wont fade. When I went to the Cow Palace show a couple weeks back I noticed there was a cafe being shown. He/she was still a puppy, about 10 months and I asked the breeder about her cafe....I was wondering how the cafe's do in the ring. She usually breeds browns, blacks and silver. But she said she was surprised to see that this puppy is turning cafe or something she's not sure of. (thats what she actually said to me) So even this experienced breeder of 20 some yrs didn't know what she was getting a cafe until a few months prior. Right away I realized it was a cafe because I just had Mikey at the same age and the coat looked identicle. Mikey was bred from two cafe dogs and I knew when purchasing him he was a cafe. But she didn't know. lol

My point is even this breeder had NO idea that dog was going to be a cafe. They say there are some sign's to look for but wouldn't this breeder of realized that? Maybe I should of picked her brain more about it. I need to learn about color genetics for sure.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Well from what I have seen/read is:

All colors will "fade" to some degree. 

No matter the color you are looking for if you want it to stay as dark as possible look for a dog will little to no blue or silver in the background. 

One way to tell if the pup will be silver is that they will have white in between the pads of their feet. 

I have noticed that Cafe Au Lait and Silver Beige can be interchangeable terms for a fading brown.

Its almost impossible to tell what color the puppy will be just buy looking at under 8 weeks of age, it gets better at around 12 to 14 weeks. 

Here is another link about poodle colors.
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/poodle.html


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Ah, I really do NOT want a cafe', I think that color would drive me crazy. I'm a little to OCD I guess, same reason I dont like a lot of party colored dogs in any breed including my own. No offense to people who have either color/marking and love them. Honestly I don't care for Jazz's color either, the cream makes her look dingy sometimes and now that she has the sherbert colored organge and pinky stripes it makes it worse. Lesson learned. 
Thanks, those links look helpful. Poodles need to whelp with little birth certificates (lol like cabbage patch kids), that say Hi, I'm a poodle and I will be XXXX color when I grow up. 

Sure wish I could find a silver BlueFox, I would jump at the chance be it a boy or a girl. Any of color hubby says HAS to be a girl, but for a silver he said I could have either.


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## IPP (Nov 29, 2008)

I love the silvers myself...every time I look at pics of Dutch I think to myself "wow a silver spoo...want one!" LOL

I LOVE the blues as well...to be honest I think my least favorite color is white...too hard to keep CLEAN! Even the creams and apricots seems to "look" clean longer than the whites! Our parti girl Peanut is always getting covered in something, and I wish she had more parti-color markings on her to help cover up her love of rolling in dirt in the yard!

Hubby says that the next AND last (yeah heard that one before) is a parti-color female spoo, and I am not allowed to even show him pictures of anything that is NOT a FEMALE parti-colored spoo. 

I tried to show him pictures of a pet $700 male sable/white parti-color spoo here in Indiana...but nope nope nope! UGH...that about killed me he is marked very well and I love the more unusual colors myself.

Last week I was trying to show him some pictures of some black spoo pups out of fully tested parents up in Morgantown Indiana that are NICE NICE NICE and only $500 for show and $300 for pet...they are on Puppyfind but he said (from the living room) "Are they parties? Then I don't wanna see them!"

UGH!

I know you are wanting a certain color dog...and I totally relate to that! I just have to keep telling myself "the PERFECT dog for us is out there...just have to wait for it to come along!"


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

I totally agree about the Cafe color in Poodle's. When I got Mikey I just really wanted another Poodle and wasn't too concerned with color. Now looking back I wouldn't have another Cafe. Ive found I really prefer richer colors. 

Even the dark browns are very appealing but like I always say, silver is my favorite. Even though silver is a dilute, there is just something rich about silver Poodle's to me. Shoot even my wedding ring is white gold. I love the color silver. lol


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

LoL, My rings are white gold as well, and yup silver or blue is my favorite color in any aniaml. I've had three blue rats now and one of the new guinea pigs is silver. I think I will have to wait on a silver or blue, I really like the blues, spoo though. Hubby is reconsidering his stance on silvers because he thinks I still might be able to come up with a way to dye it. *giggles* At this very moment he's disgusted with me that we spend all weekend looking for green dye for Jazz. He says he wants a brown one (which means he wants a red or a bown since he doesn't reconize the difference between colors) or he wants a black one. I've veto'ed a black one unless it just has a perfect personality. Almost all the spoo's I groom are black and I want something different that you don't see every day around here.


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## spoofan (Dec 11, 2008)

Purple Poodle said:


> Well from what I have seen/read is:
> 
> All colors will "fade" to some degree.
> 
> ...


Good to see you here PP.


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## Mandycasey'smom (Jan 3, 2009)

Casey is a brown and I see his bum getting lots of silver in it at 11 months old and I just noticed it. //could be coming in with coat change.
Mandy is a cream with apricot ears and hubby hates that she looks dirty She has a little ***** hair at her privates and her back of legs as well but in bikini clip you don't notice it as much.
My next will be a party brown and white or black and white though if the right solid silver fell in my lap LOL heck if any colour fell in my lap I would keep it.
My next is deffinatly a boy. I don't like the independence of girls I like the sucky boys


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

WonderPup said:


> I'm looking to research colors some of the specific on coat color in poo's and am wondering if any of you have any good places to start. Specificly I want to know more about colors that fade, like the different variations between chocolate and cafe-au-lait, and Blue and Silver. I was surfing the web tonight blindly, just killing time, and ran across a breeder advertising Brown spoo puppies for sale. Her big sales picth was "won't fade". My question is how do you know? How can I look at a puppy without knowing it's genetic background and know what color it's planning on being? Is that even possible in poodles? I can look at a tibbie and tell you what color that puppy will be without question. But tibbies don't fade and change the same way poo's do. Do you just roll the dice so to speak in those cases. I'm obviously excluding the fact that the breeder would pressumably know what color mom and dad as well as there parents were and would know at least a little bit about the genetic involved with the colors. I want to know how (or IF) I can know what I'm looking at.
> 
> Hubby saw a picture of a red poodle the other day and is now leaning heavily on me to avoid getting another cream or white colored dog. He wants Silver/Blue, Chocolate, Red, or Black. I want to understand what that cute little *insert color here* puppy will look like when it's all grown up. I guess I'm a bad person but I am soo visual that I aside from health and temperment, color is very important to me.


Well there are only two ways you can know your dogs wont fade. 1) The breeder researched the line they wanted to work with and insured that the dogs they got did not have the the fading gene. 2) you test for the fading gene and breed by the test results. 

90% of the breeders I have talk to have been lying to me saying that their dogs don't fade etc....( red standard poodle breeders) :shot: Some breeders don't even know what they are doing and will tell you that all reds fade etc... example http://reinehauspoodles.com/ This lady was really rude! one of her dogs is in the top ten in UKC but she lacks genetic knowledge .... I just don't get that lol

You just have to find a honest breeder who KNOWS what they are doing. 

I have gotten a lot info from susan cook and my books by anna katherine nicholas. In the books they tell you what colors not to breed to. there is a website ( i will have to find it) that tells you what colors not to breed to etc.... 

O I forgot to say and yes there are red poodles who keep their color ! my neighbor has a toy poodle which is red and its 5 years old she is the same color as Enzo is now !


.


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## starkeeper (Jan 27, 2009)

*My latest poodle is an apricot.*

My family forbade another white dog.

We had a white poodle (he passed on) and a white maltese and all the rescues here were whites mostly and I didn't want black since they are difficult to photograph (had one for 15 years) and always wanted to try an apricot and found one from a reputable breeder.

There is another 'apricot' in our neighborhood who looks like a cocoa color dog to me and he has a darker spot on his back. His owner says he is apricot though. Maybe as a younger pup he was?

I love all the colors personally!


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Maybe this is a goofy question buuuutttt, is there a norm as far as fading goes? I am getting the impression that it is difficult to find reds that keep their colors, most of them fade to dark apricot? Is the same true for chocolate, do most of them fade or is the cafe' a newer thing that is being intro'ed and marketed by some breeders as a "rare color"

I sure wish Jazz would "fade" to white LoL, I wouldn't trade her for the world though


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

WonderPup said:


> Maybe this is a goofy question buuuutttt, is there a norm as far as fading goes? I am getting the impression that it is difficult to find reds that keep their colors, most of them fade to dark apricot? Is the same true for chocolate, do most of them fade or is the cafe' a newer thing that is being intro'ed and marketed by some breeders as a "rare color"
> 
> I sure wish Jazz would "fade" to white LoL, I wouldn't trade her for the world though


Well The thing is most breeders who have red standard breeders are just breeding for $$$ they are scamming people who have not done the research. They are not testing for the Fade gene so its a gamble , the pups can come out whatever way. They also do not have proven stock. 

With the chocolates its the same They fade but there are more chocolate breeders with dogs that do not carry the fading gene. 

Susan has a program she is working on with a few other breeders have you seen hogan ?

if not here he is , susan will be using him in her program.










here is some deep red standard poodles I am not sure if they really are this red still but I might drive to her kennel to see them with my own eyes 



















She has no problem for visitors coming to see her dogs she actually prefers it so it will be interesting if they really are that red cause i love how his coat looks. 

Bijou kennels state they dont fade either and she is part of the ARPC 
http://www.bijoupoodles.com/

http://www.apricotredpoodleclub.com/

Terry from farley D poodles has some reds that stay We have personally talked to him over the phone about his dogs. My sister calls him weekly he is our mentor along with susan. 

Dona on his website is 13 years old and is still that color. 
http://www.farleysd.com/dona.htm


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

roxy25 said:


> Well The thing is most breeders who have red standard breeders are just breeding for $$$ they are scamming people who have not done the research. They are not testing for the Fade gene so its a gamble , the pups can come out whatever way. They also do not have proven stock.
> 
> With the chocolates its the same They fade but there are more chocolate breeders with dogs that do not carry the fading gene.
> 
> ...




Just for the record there is not a chocolate color. Its just brown. Im not at all trying to be rude its just a pet peeve of mine. lol 

Roxy25, what became of the breeder Susan recommended a few weeks ago? I think she was going to have a litter soon or something. Were you able to get in touch? 

Also...are you considering buying a puppy from the dog in the last two pics? I know the color is what you want but that dog is certainly just a pet. I know you've been wanting a show potential.


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## Sasha (Feb 17, 2009)

Those pictures...OMG those dogs are gorgeous. Makes you want to just run your fingers through that hair lol.
I never knew you could check for the fade gene..well tbh, never knew there were some that didnt fade but then again, I am just now doing research on stuff. I just got a couple weeks ago a maltapoo and have a baby poodle coming tuesday. She is a red. I had read so much about them fading, I never thought too much about it because I love apricots so it wasn't an issue. I hope she doesn't fade because she is the same gorgeous color of that first one but only 8 weeks old. My maltapoo is cream color wth bit of apricot on ear tips. I am thankful that he doesnt have the apricot on his personal bits or backside. I fell in love with him on first site so any color issues would of been mute at that time. My heart is totally captured by him. I just love how he is so excited to see me when I get back from the store lol. I am home usually 24/7 but occasionally shop for short periods or drs appts. he dances on his back feet, whimpers wildly, then licks all over my face wiggling like a worm on a hook rofl. How sweet a love is from a pet..totally unconditional.
anyhoo...will get my red tested now that I know about it..thanks so much for the education.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

SECRETO said:


> Just for the record there is not a chocolate color. Its just brown. Im not at all trying to be rude its just a pet peeve of mine. lol
> 
> Roxy25, what became of the breeder Susan recommended a few weeks ago? I think she was going to have a litter soon or something. Were you able to get in touch?
> 
> Also...are you considering buying a puppy from the dog in the last two pics? I know the color is what you want but that dog is certainly just a pet. I know you've been wanting a show potential.


I have yet to call Carolyn yet I been busy getting my classes straight lol. Maybe this weeks since I am settling down and have my schedule organized.

No I am not going to buy a dog from the breeder who's dogs are in the last two pics. She is asking 2500 for her puppies. The mom of the litter she has now is nice looking and is a apricot but her male is pet quality( pictured).I have a pet peeve about breeders charging 2-3k for some pet quality dogs, her dogs are not proven at all. This lets me know they are not trying to improve the quality of their dogs. I will probably just go visit to see if her dogs are that color lol and maybe use one of her other dogs as a stud to get that color. she has some other dogs that are not too bad in quality. That male pictured is more pet quality than and of her other dogs. I just posted him because his coat is so rich looking lol


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## tannerokeefe (Dec 14, 2008)

Hogan is gorgeous, but the dog in the last pic looks funny to me. His coloring and coat are pretty, but he look very unproportionate(and I dont know much about the breed standard). Correct me if I am wrong here!!


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

roxy25 said:


> Well The thing is most breeders who have red standard breeders are just breeding for $$$ they are scamming people who have not done the research. They are not testing for the Fade gene so its a gamble , the pups can come out whatever way. They also do not have proven stock.
> 
> With the chocolates its the same They fade but there are more chocolate breeders with dogs that do not carry the fading gene.
> 
> ...


that first dog is the most beautiful red I have ever seen!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

tannerokeefe said:


> Hogan is gorgeous, but the dog in the last pic looks funny to me. His coloring and coat are pretty, but he look very unproportionate(and I dont know much about the breed standard). Correct me if I am wrong here!!


Yeah because he is pet quality lol Jenn and I mentioned that in our post. I just posted pictures because his coat is super rich in color :tongue:


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Another obseration and two questions
I'm noticing the difference in color between the two dogs you posted roxy. It could the the photos and lighting but to me those two dogs are two very different colors or shades however you want to put it. Both colors are lovely by the way but I really like the first dog's color better than the second. 
Question 1) what is the definition of red in poodles. Let me explain - In those two photos the first dog fits what I would call red in a tibbie, the second would be what I would think of as (sorry Jen) chocolate. It does kind of look like the chocolate hubby got my for V-day. Or maybe even cocoa.... thats what it reminds me of. So to me, that second dog would be beautiful brown. obviously thats not the case, that is a red dog, so where does red become brown and where does apricot become red? Or is it just a matter of perspective? We had a dog come in the shop a couple weeks ago that was that really dark brown/red. The owner said she red, and she really was beautiful, but when I think of red, that color isn't what jumps to mind. 

I am not ever considering a red poodle, though if one fell in my lap I wouldn't pass it up. There is one I saw for sale not to far away to go get that is already spayed and everything and is about the color of that bright red dog you posted. I thought about it for about half a second and decided it would really bother me if that color faded so pass. 

Which brings me to question 2) Do you think brown dogs are as hard to photograph as black ones? We don't have a brown color like that in tibbies and I don't have any brown/chocolate colored dogs in any breed that I groom so I don't know. I AM looking at a brown puppy that hubby likes and I am on the fence about color wise. I am nervous that it will turn that cafe' color for one and two I want to do a lot of creative clipping so I want to be able to photograph the dog and have it show up in pictures? Any thoughts?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

The first picture would be just red like and “ Irish” red, the second picture would be considered a mahogany red. In the poodle books I have they describe red as being shades of red , mahogany, red brown given that the dog has a black nose ( preferred) . Brown dogs will have liver colored noses or brown colored noses just like the brown poodle my sister groomed. 
Here is the info I was looking for, for you 

“DO NOTS
Here are some serious DO NOT's that you should think about when breeding poodles.
DO NOT breed BROWN, CAFE AU LAIT, or SILVER BIEGE (Brown shades) to the following colors: RED, APRICOT, CREAM, or WHITE. Mixing of these colors will cause incorrect pigment on the points since the brown shades have liver colored points and Red, Apricot, Cream, and White should all have jet black points.
DO NOT breed REDS or APRICOTS to the following colors:
SILVER or BLUE. Breeding red or apricot to silver causes the color to fade even more than they already do as the silver and blue colors carries the fading gene. True I have bred blue to red before due to the fact that was what I had to work with at the time. But if you are truly working to deepen and darken reds and apricots and produce beautiful dogs that hold their color, you do not want to introduce any more of the fading gene into these already fading colors than you have to.
When breeding BROWNS, to keep them dark and reduce fading and taking the above rules into account, DO NOT breed to the following colors: BLUE, SILVER, CAFE AU LAIT, SILVER BEIGE. These colors once again will introduce the fading gene into your browns that you are trying to keep dark.
DOS
Here are some very important DOS that you should think about when breeding poodles.
Other than the absolute DO NOT's listed above, how you combine colors totally depends upon what your end goal color is in your breeding program.
When breeding REDS, to keep them dark, to reduce fading, and keeping the points nice and jet black, DO breed to the following colors: RED and BLACK. When using a black every few generations in a red breeding program you will hopefully help to keep dark points on the puppies and also to darken their color. HOWEVER, be very careful what colors are in the background of said black that you do not inadvertently introduce more of the fading gene. I would pick a black that has an all black only background or even better a black that has an all red and black only background (black/red hybrid). Many people consider a color bred red to have apricot in the background. This is because apricot is a dilute of red so still in the same color family. HOWEVER, do not forget that this apricot causes more fading gene to be present in your reds, so the fewer apricots used the better to keep the color.
When breeding BROWNS, to keep them dark and to reduce fading, DO breed to the following colors: BROWNS and BLACK. Breeding true blacks to a brown is a great way to help reduce the fading that we see in most browns. HOWEVER, once again be very careful what colors are in the background of said black that you do not inadvertently introduce more of the fading gene.

As for photographs you would need a hand flash or lots of light on dark dogs ( black) , IMO I do not think a brown dog will be as hard to photograph. I have taking pics of brown dogs and they come out pretty good. It depends what kind of setting you will be using example out door lighting or indoor ?


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

See the parents coat color and ask the breeder for pictures of the parent's parents. Also, ask to see the DNA coat color results. My Bindi's was done by VetGen, DNA Coat Color BBeeDD; is not affected by and does NOT carry the dilute gene, does not carry the brown gene, carries the cream-white-red-apricot with hidden black genes (Black Points), She has been color-bred red for many generations. It's ok in red to throw a black in once in a while but no brown, apricots, or creams. This table can help too. Adult hair will always be different then the puppy hair thats why you need to see the parents. http://www.vetgen.com/documents/CoatColorInheritanceChartbandd.pdf If the breeder has a web site they like to publish offspring of other litter so you can see the majority of color. Check out; http://www.bijoupoodles.com/Litter.html


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

roxy25 said:


> Well The thing is most breeders who have red standard breeders are just breeding for $$$ they are scamming people who have not done the research. They are not testing for the Fade gene so its a gamble , the pups can come out whatever way. They also do not have proven stock.
> 
> With the chocolates its the same They fade but there are more chocolate breeders with dogs that do not carry the fading gene.
> 
> ...


what a beautiful red! my favorite!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Pamela said:


> what a beautiful red! my favorite!


I know Pamela isn't he beautiful !


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

Brown dogs are as hard to photograph as blacks especially if they are real dark. Outside lighting is always easier to take pictures in. Bijou has new pictures of their Reds and Browns posted; http://www.bijoupoodles.com/Customers.html Color variations are nearly as vast as human hair color.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

FYI - Susan said Hogan is neutered. She suggested Trigger from Harmony Hunting Poodles whom is "STUNNING." The same one ChickyChat used with Paris. Whom is a BBeeDD, same as my Bindi.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

thestars said:


> FYI - Susan said Hogan is neutered. She suggested Trigger from Harmony Hunting Poodles whom is "STUNNING." The same one ChickyChat used with Paris. Whom is a BBeeDD, same as my Bindi.


At the time Susan was going to use him and he was not neutered. Yup I seen Trigger. Susan would like to use Enzo if he passes his health test and breed to one of her co owned girls.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I forgot to say We did not test Enzo yet but I have a feeling he is dd I am hoping he is not but Susan said the female we might breed to in the future is DD so this will give the pups Dd. I have to work with on what we have now.


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## katsdogworld (Jan 24, 2009)

I was just looking up colors today and came across this site:
http://arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com/colorbreedinginpoodles.html
Roxy I see the information you pasted is from this site, but it's always nice to give credit to sourced material. These people have obviously taken a great deal of time to put together valuable information for all interested.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

katsdogworld said:


> I was just looking up colors today and came across this site:
> http://arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com/colorbreedinginpoodles.html
> Roxy I see the information you pasted is from this site, but it's always nice to give credit to sourced material. These people have obviously taken a great deal of time to put together valuable information for all interested.


Thanks for posting the link , I just had the info on Microsoft word , I could not find the site again after I found it the first few times. I was not trying to take credit for that info sorry if anyone thought this.


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