# Help! We brought home littermates!



## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

I have two 14-week-old standard poodle littermates, one male, one female that we brought home at 8 weeks. I just found out about littermate syndrome, and I'm worried we made a huge mistake, but I don't feel like I can rehome a pup at this point as the family is too attached. I just ordered a second crate so I could crate them separately, and I'm walking them separately and together. I have them signed up for separate puppy classes. They're picking up on commands easily and pretty much came potty trained. My main concern is that I don't want them to develop aggression. Is it okay to let them bite each other when they play? I stop it when it escalates, but I can't seem to get them to stop the play biting. They don't yelp like it hurts or anything. I'm just wondering if this is normal, safe play, or if I shouldn't allow it.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

They're learning bite inhibition at this age. It's not just normal, it's important! Just be sure to give them breathers every once in a while so they don't lose their little minds  In our puppy class, we'd pause play every few minutes, deep breath, and then back to play (or home for a nap if they couldn't calm down).

As for avoiding littermate syndrome.... It's rather unfortunate that the breeder didn't speak to you about this concern before letting you choose two. But it sounds like you're at least taking steps to prevent it. Lots of people don't! I especially like the separate puppy classes.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Having littermates isn't the end of the world. As long as you treat each puppy as an individual you'll do fine. You just don't want their bond to be more interesting than you are. The play biting is normal puppy behavior. Misha does this with another young poodle puppy he sees regularly. When it looks like he's being too rough, I just take him for a time out and wait until the other puppy comes to him to ask for more play. Playing rough is fine as long as the dogs understand that not everybody wants to play rough. Good exposure to other balanced dogs will help to teach this. Sometimes they need a few good corrections for inappropriate behavior before they learn.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Yes its sounds like you are already on top of this and handling it appropriately. Play biting is perfectly normal, it how my poodle plays too but I don't allow it to get out of hand. Littermate syndrome is real but its not an end all. I've raised many dogs without an issue. Separate crates are important and individual play /training walks are too. But as they age it becomes less of an issue. They learn to be individual and to repsect you. I don't think it would be an issue to take them to the same class provided two people handle them, though the separate class is nice as they are getting that one on one time.


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> They're learning bite inhibition at this age. It's not just normal, it's important! Just be sure to give them breathers every once in a while so they don't lose their little minds  In our puppy class, we'd pause play every few minutes, deep breath, and then back to play (or home for a nap if they couldn't calm down).
> 
> As for avoiding littermate syndrome.... It's rather unfortunate that the breeder didn't speak to you about this concern before letting you choose two. But it sounds like you're at least taking steps to prevent it. Lots of people don't! I especially like the separate puppy classes.


It's a relief to know it's okay that they're biting! The breeder is a friend of mine and when I told her about littermate syndrome, she said she'd never heard of it. This is her first time breeding. She's an awesome breeder though. She had all 13 puppies almost completely potty trained before they went home.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Are you managing both puppies on your own? Hope there are some extra hands at home to help out. Would love to see some pictures of the two if you ever get a minute. Best wishes that they are both “easy keepers”.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Peggy I disagree that they are learning bite inhibition still. However it sounds like they have learned it well as should be the case. Puppies are the best teachers of bite inhibition with one another. As long as nobody yelps or tries to discontinue the play things should be fine. When people bring home puppies too soon they often never learn to give an inhibited bite.

We raised our two older dogs together. They are only about 8 weeks apart in age. Gotta say I hated it and will never ever do two puppies at the same time ever again. And that POV developed even though there were two people working them. I do hope you have a partner in this complex situation, although you do seem to be working pretty effectively with the balance of separate and together time.


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

Mfmst said:


> Are you managing both puppies on your own? Hope there are some extra hands at home to help out. Would love to see some pictures of the two if you ever get a minute. Best wishes that they are both “easy keepers”.











I have a husband and 4 kids, so not on my own, although I pretty much do everything, as my husband is gone most of the day and the kids are pretty young.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Cute puppies! One thing I suggest you do even if you like the fuzzy face is to work on teaching them to accept all aspects of grooming. If you change your mind about what style of clip you want or have a need for an emergency groom you won't have to struggle with it. Look here. Teaching grooming behavior to puppies


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

They are adorbs!!!! They'll be fine if you can hang in there and do what's needed. First, they're poodles...very people oriented. Just be sure to give them plenty of one on one with you or another human and let them do things without the other a good deal of the time, but also with each other. Each gets his own crate but it's okay if they're near each other when sleeping. (it will help you sleep better too) Let them hang out together some of the time but also lots and lots of separate time...training, taking walks separately, play time with you separately and together. I used an ex pen also and usually they got to hang out together in there when I couldn't watch them closely. They will continue to learn bite inhibition. Just walk away and don't play with them when they bite on you unless it's extremely gentle. Then they will learn that gentle mouthing doesn't hurt but more than that does and the human stops playing. They can play bite each other. That's how dogs play. If it hurts one too much, he or she will let the other know. Don't worry about it. This is basically what I did with my two 8 week old puppies. (not littermates but from the same breeder) And they turned out beautifully...independent so they don't get separation anxiety. They can stay by themselves or together. _Do plenty of socializing_. This is the most important thing of all. Read up on what a good socialization protocol is all about and be diligent. It's a lot of work but will be easier if you have other family members joining in with the walks and stuff. If you do a search on here, you can find several of my old threads with detailed descriptions of how I handled it and how they did. Anyhow, don't worry. They'll be fine but it will be a lot of extra work. If you're dedicated as I was, it will pay off in the end. I love having the two and when they were babies, it was nice for them to have each other...kept them from crying and screaming when going to bed, kept them happy during the day and those absences where they had to stay alone could be done intermittently and little bit here and there so it wasn't too stressful for them. But they came to be just great.

Of course, having 4 kids will keep you incredibly busy. I thought I had a handful! I hope someone will help you. (don't know the ages of your kids)

Absolutely...get them use to grooming...all aspects of it. Lots of positive reinforcement along the way.


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> Cute puppies! One thing I suggest you do even if you like the fuzzy face is to work on teaching them to accept all aspects of grooming. If you change your mind about what style of clip you want or have a need for an emergency groom you won't have to struggle with it. Look here. Teaching grooming behavior to puppies


I took them to the groomers for this very reason and had their faces shaved. My family freaked out a little and told me we can never shave their faces again. Haha.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> Peggy I disagree that they are learning bite inhibition still. However it sounds like they have learned it well as should be the case. Puppies are the best teachers of bite inhibition with one another. As long as nobody yelps or tries to discontinue the play things should be fine. When people bring home puppies too soon they often never learn to give an inhibited bite.
> 
> We raised our two older dogs together. They are only about 8 weeks apart in age. Gotta say I hated it and will never ever do two puppies at the same time ever again. And that POV developed even though there were two people working them. I do hope you have a partner in this complex situation, although you do seem to be working pretty effectively with the balance of separate and together time.


At 14 weeks, they're no longer learning bite inhibition? Or maybe the correct term would be "practising." I thought that continued through adolescence?

I defer to your expertise on this, obviously. Maybe the initial learning period just FELT like it lasted longer. ? I do not miss those little needle teeth.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Schmath said:


> I took them to the groomers for this very reason and had their faces shaved. My family freaked out a little and told me we can never shave their faces again. Haha.


Ha! Been there! And believe it or not, after a few poodle face shaves, my husband now actually likes it. He doesn't even mind Peggy's naked little feet! Thank goodness, honestly. So much easier to keep clean.

I also like being able to see her eyes. It strengthens our bond.


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## bluegirl1997 (Aug 10, 2019)

I have 2 standard poodle litter sisters, never had a problem with littermate syndrome. My two are 11 years old now, and have very different personalities. I think the best most important thing you can do is go to lots of sessions of obedience lessons. Poodles are smart so you can easily train them at home but going to lessons with other dogs and owners in a neutral space and then practicing with each one on their own is just so much more effective (I've found), and it's fun! You'll build a special bond with each one. And as they get older, lots of free play on soft surfaces (like your lawn) is great too! Someone on this forum had awesome training exercises to teach her puppy not to grab children's hands or sleeves as they ran by the puppy, and for not reacting, the puppy got treats...it would be worth searching out. 

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## bluegirl1997 (Aug 10, 2019)

Ps--they're super cute!

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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

bluegirl1997 said:


> I have 2 standard poodle litter sisters, never had a problem with littermate syndrome. My two are 11 years old now, and have very different personalities. I think the best most important thing you can do is go to lots of sessions of obedience lessons. Poodles are smart so you can easily train them at home but going to lessons with other dogs and owners in a neutral space and then practicing with each one on their own is just so much more effective (I've found), and it's fun! You'll build a special bond with each one. And as they get older, lots of free play on soft surfaces (like your lawn) is great too! Someone on this forum had awesome training exercises to teach her puppy not to grab children's hands or sleeves as they ran by the puppy, and for not reacting, the puppy got treats...it would be worth searching out.
> 
> Sent from my VOG-L04 using Tapatalk


We're definitely going to need those training exercises. I've been trying to train the kids not to act so hyper around the dogs, but as soon as I mentioned it, the 6-year-old started spinning in circles and the 4 year old started running around the kitchen. ?‍♀ Hopefully the dogs obey me better than the kids do.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Mine are mini's and am now on my second set of same litter siblings. Follow the great advice here, it's going to be a wonderful life! 

I hadn't heard of it til I was doing training research (first puppies in over 30 years lol). After reading the description and before I found PF, I figured so long as I didn't bring home both of them so they could entertain each other and keep each other company *so I wouldn't have to, *we'd figure it out.

As for playing and biting, they're heading toward 3 years old and still do.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

PeggyTheParti said:


> At 14 weeks, they're no longer learning bite inhibition? Or maybe the correct term would be "practising." I thought that continued through adolescence?
> 
> I defer to your expertise on this, obviously. Maybe the initial learning period just FELT like it lasted longer. ? I do not miss those little needle teeth.



More about practicing at that point. If they haven't learned good bite inhibition by the time they separate from their dam and in most instances all of the littermates it is very hard if not impossible for people to teach it. We can teach them to be polite with their mouths and I have taught all of our dogs to accept having my hands in their mouths, but I never taught any of them anything about not applying pressure.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> More about practicing at that point. If they haven't learned good bite inhibition by the time they separate from their dam and in most instances all of the littermates it is very hard if not impossible for people to teach it. We can teach them to be polite with their mouths and I have taught all of our dogs to accept having my hands in their mouths, but I never taught any of them anything about not applying pressure.


Thank you! I carefully followed Dunbar's chapter on this, but I suppose what I was working with was already an inhibited bite. Peggy was with her large litter until 9 weeks.

Now we're just working on no mouthing ever, which is proving rather difficult. I met a lovely standard recently and she greeted me with that toothy "spoo handshake" I know so well. Another puppy! I assumed. But nope. Almost 2 years old. ?


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

We had two puppies the same age, from different litters, but they were born one day apart and raised together from 10 weeks. The worst part was housebreaking. Someone was always making a mess. It slowed down the process. Remember to treat them as individuals and not a two headed dog and you'll be ok. Let them go on car rides apart from one another, a training class without the other, stuff like that. I was concerned about littermate syndrome, too. We avoided it by making sure to separate our puppies for several hours every day. But, like I said, housebreaking was the worst part.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Thank you! I carefully followed Dunbar's chapter on this, but I suppose what I was working with was already an inhibited bite. Peggy was with her large litter until 9 weeks.
> 
> Now we're just working on no mouthing ever, which is proving rather difficult. I met a lovely standard recently and she greeted me with that toothy "spoo handshake" I know so well. Another puppy! I assumed. But nope. Almost 2 years old. ?


I thought Misha would never stop biting! He went through another burst of it between 6 and 8 months. But by the time he reached 9 months he had basically stopped! I am so glad. It was like magic! I can't imagine a worse puppy biter than he was.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> I thought Misha would never stop biting! He went through another burst of it between 6 and 8 months. But by the time he reached 9 months he had basically stopped! I am so glad. It was like magic! I can't imagine a worse puppy biter than he was.


I had a dachshund mix years ago who would have challenged Misha for that title!! It got so bad, I resorted to a technique I read in an old book, which said to swipe butter on your hand and then praise like crazy for every lick.

Well it worked. TOO WELL. And for the rest of his days, he never bit again, but he incessantly licked. Needless to say, I tossed that book. ?

Luckily, Peggy's bites don't especially hurt anymore. Nothing like those baby teeth nips. And she's so gentle 95% of the time, even checking in with me if she accidentally catches a tooth on my hand while playing. But when she gets excited, look out!! She just hasn't quite mastered the art of saying hi without her mouth.

I'll be counting down to that 9 month mark. ?


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Raffi has very good bite inhibition, and he had pretty much stopped mouthing (and jumping up) by 4 months. I was congratulating myself on a combination of easy pup and good training, but suddenly at 5 months he is back at it worse than ever! Pride before a fall and all that lol. Ah well, back to basics on that front.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

My puppies had pretty soft mouths from the time I got them at 8 weeks. They play-bit and sometimes it hurt, but I said, "ouch" and quit playing with them...and they got even more careful and gentle. I had so little trouble with that. Within a couple of weeks, they all but quit mouthing on me. Sometimes I still like to grovel on the floor with them and they will pretend bite me, barely knock their teeth against my hands. So they get it very well...not to bite down one little bit. 

But house breaking! Yikes! I didn't do a very good job with that. It was hard with two of them.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> My puppies had pretty soft mouths from the time I got them at 8 weeks. They play-bit and sometimes it hurt, but I said, "ouch" and quit playing with them...and they got even more careful and gentle. I had so little trouble with that. Within a couple of weeks, they all but quit mouthing on me. Sometimes I still like to grovel on the floor with them and they will pretend bite me, barely knock their teeth against my hands. So they get it very well...not to bite down one little bit.
> 
> But house breaking! Yikes! I didn't do a very good job with that. It was hard with two of them.


I can see how that would be tricky. I wonder if it's also harder in general with smaller dogs. My last girl was about 10 lbs full-grown and only ever 98% housebroken. Peggy meanwhile was pretty much set from day 1. Just had to keep her away from soft fluffy things for a few months. (Guessing pee pads were used at some point by the breeder.)

The one time she pooped in the house, she was frantic and we completely ignored the signs. I put her in her pen to "stop being so annoying" and she ended up pooping as far from her play area as she could get, pressed up against the side of the pen. Poor Peggy.

I keep a written log of all meals, treats, and potty times, which really helped us establish a routine and understand accidents, and it's helping us now to pinpoint a food allergy. I think it could be a great help to someone who's juggling two pups.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't think it's harder for toy breeds intrinsically to learn to be house broken. I think sometimes the humans don't notice as well as they do a big dog. One quick little squat and one second later, they're finished. When there are two puppies, one goes one direction, the other the other direction and oy vey! My problem was I had trouble watching them both every second and let them have too much space and freedom too soon. Finally they caught on and were super. They both let me know when they needed to go out and would hold on till they were let out. I had several dogs, big and small and they varied a little bit. My Doberman, smart as he was took a rather long time to get onto it. Winter in Idaho didn't help with that. Never get a puppy when you live where it's severe winter. The house breaking is doubly hard. lol. One of my Chihuahuas was smart as a whip, caught on right away and very reliable. The other not so much but she came with "dirty puppy syndrome." (Long story) My other dogs before were larger dogs and they did great. So, they vary.

Keeping a log is great. It's part of my chapter of the book I was writing. (past tense unless I get back to it) Keeping a log of everything that goes in the dog's mouth and when....and every time something comes out. Noting when these things happen in relation to other activities etc. Is Peggy house broken now? 

Don't feel bad. I can't tell you how many times I've ignored signs of things. Poor dogs. But they are so forgiving aren't they? And they usually grow up to be fine companions in spite of us. LOL.

So I don't think it's so much that toys are not good at holding it or catching on to the training. But the humans can tend to be a little on the lax side sometimes maybe. From what I understand, they _do_ have smallish bladders, even proportionately. So they may need to be let out more often as I'm thinking back...at least when they're pups. But my two (now adults) are very reliable and really know how to let me know when they need to go out.

Good luck with everything.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oh please keep writing your book, PB! I'll be the first to buy it!

And yes, Peggy's been housebroken for several months, but I won't consider her 100% until we put the carpets back down. Our last dog had many accidents on them in her last year, and despite rigorous cleaning, I'm sure Peggy will smell those dang spots. I was tempted to just toss them altogether, but my frugal husband would be appalled!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

"As for playing and biting, they're heading toward 3 years old and still do."

I should clarify - they still play with each other and us. The biting is part of their play with each other. My girls before were also Poodle Federation Wrestling champs, complete with takedowns using mouths. The boys now mostly face fight lol.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

For some reason bitey face wrestling has returned for my poodles in the last week or so. Thankfully their bite inhibition is impeccable. I just wish they wouldn't do it on the bed in the morning while I am trying to drink coffee.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> For some reason bitey face wrestling has returned for my poodles in the last week or so. Thankfully their bite inhibition is impeccable. I just wish they wouldn't do it on the bed in the morning while I am trying to drink coffee.


? How relaxing for you! Guessing they loved their captive audience.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

lily cd re said:


> For some reason bitey face wrestling has returned for my poodles in the last week or so. Thankfully their bite inhibition is impeccable. I just wish they wouldn't do it on the bed in the morning while I am trying to drink coffee.


Sorry it's at your expense, but I sputtered my morning coffee laughing over this mental picture


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well then to flesh out what it looks like generally Lily is laying on her back across my legs and Javelin is standing next to the bed initiating the game which she is happy to reply to. Once she engages he usually jumps up and now both of them are on the bed making me worry about my coffee. Even though she is always on the bottom of the pile she is always in charge. If she stops he stops. No wonder she thinks she is the bitch queen instead of accepting that that is really me.

And Peggy I really am the captive audience for this silliness.


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## mrich (Jul 15, 2013)

Definitely following this thread! We just got 2 9 week old spoo puppies and have been separating them when they get carried away with the play fighting. We’ve also discovered that Rosie, our miniature poodle, does a great job of stopping over-aggressive behavior. She’ll give a growl that chills the kids out. I’ve read that adult wolves will teach pups appropriate behavior, but I’m not sure how appropriate it is in a household situation. Any thoughts?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

mrich said:


> Definitely following this thread! We just got 2 9 week old spoo puppies and have been separating them when they get carried away with the play fighting. We’ve also discovered that Rosie, our miniature poodle, does a great job of stopping over-aggressive behavior. She’ll give a growl that chills the kids out. I’ve read that adult wolves will teach pups appropriate behavior, but I’m not sure how appropriate it is in a household situation. Any thoughts?


I don't have much experience with this, but I think an older dog in the home can absolutely be a great teacher, providing that older dog is socially savvy and confident, and is generally well-behaved. (I wouldn't want her teaching my puppies bad habits or making them feel insecure.)

On one of Peggy's particularly spicy teen days, we took her to the dog park in the hopes of bumping into some sweet older pooches who could knock her down a peg or two (no pun intended).

Well it worked! And quickly. I went home wishing we still had our senior girl to help show Peggy the ropes.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Schmath, 
I've reared litter mates together twice, and it turned out fine both times. 

We never crated the first pair at all; we just supervised them strictly and put them in a puppy proof room when needed to go out. Having read Ian Dunbar, we tried crate training the second pair. The puppies disagreed with Dunbar, so we gave up on the crates and reverted to the puppy proof room. 

Some benefits of having a pair:
-They comforted each other when they came home from the breeder
-They gave each other confidence during the fear stages
-They played with each other, giving me some relief from being the entertainment organizer
-They taught each other limits when playing rough

I took the dogs to classes separately and together. There were benefits to both. Separately, the pups paid more attention to the lesson. Together, it was a challenge to get them to pay attention to their handler instead of the distractions from having a sibling in the room. Yes, we had situations where one of the pups would break out of his down/stay and run across the room to greet his brother, or he would get anxious when he couldn't see both his humans. Working out these issues is a good reason to go to training. 

Our pups, like any siblings, developed different interests as they got older. One brother hated swimming and loved car rides. The other loved swimming and hated car rides. One loved mouthing his stuffed animals and squeaky tennis balls. The other preferred chewing on bones. 

I've heard the argument that rivalry and resource guarding becomes a problem when littermates get older. We didn't have this problem with either of our littermate pairs. However, we were also very careful to train them in a way that avoided rivalry. I used to make them take turns during training sessions. I started by working with them separately to teach the command. Then, once each dog understood, I would work with them together. Sometimes I would alternate: Dog 1 would sit and get a treat, then Dog 2 would sit and get a treat too. Sometimes I would put Dog 1 into a down/stay and make him watch while I did five sits with Dog 2. Then I would put Dog 2 into the down/stay while Dog 1 did his five sits. I believe good genetic temperament combined with consistent reinforcement of taking turns prevented any serious rivalry from developing. 


The thing that gives me the most concern in your situation is the ratio of very young children and puppies to adults. You might need to need to figure out ways to get more adult help with either dog wrangling or kid wrangling. When we were dealing with our puppies we had at at least one adult or mature teenager for every puppy. In your household, in contrast, it sounds like the number of youngsters in training outnumber the adults doing the training. You've already described a situation where a kid does the opposite of what you say (attention ploy?) and sabotages your effort to work with the puppies. It will become very tempting to stick the puppies in their crates just so you can get some peace to cook dinner and help the kids with their homework. Giving into this temptation too much will get you bored, under-exercised, under-trained dogs.


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

It gives me relief to know you had a good experience! The dogs seem to be doing okay at being separated. I took them to their first separate training classes this week and they were fine, in fact they seemed better-adjusted than most of the dogs there. I put them in separate crates last night for the first time and they were fine. Neither one has stayed home completely alone yet though. They've always had other family members around. 

The rivalry and resource guarding is what scares me. One will take a toy or bone from the other one and then they play tug of war and I worry about it escalating. The play fighting can get intense too. Right now it's not aggressive, I just worry about it escalating when they're bigger. There are certain toys and chews that I don't bring out unless they are separated. I think I'm going to find a trainer to come to my house and help me navigate it, as I've never had more than one dog at a time. I figure this stuff probably happens in lots of 2-dog households, not just the litter-mate households. 

As far as the kids go, I find that instead of ignoring the puppies, I put the kids in front of the TV so I can walk the dogs, which is terrible, but I'm pretty religious about the dog-walking as the chaos of hyper puppies triggers my anxiety. I only crate the dogs at night, and like you, I use a puppy-proof room when I'm not home. I also stick them in the room when they get overstimulated. I find that they need a few hours of forced nap in there or they get crazy, but my 4-year-old likes to wake them up. He might need a forced nap too! I do have an 11-year-old and a 9-year-old that are somewhat helpful. The puppies are really good with the kids. They seem to know to be gentle, even when the kids aren't all that gentle, and the 4-year-old has unintentionally taught them to lick rather than bite by always having food on his hands. Haha. I just keep telling myself that there are a lot of people out there who don't want to raise and train puppies who will appreciate having a dog that's trained and gentle with kids if I end up having to re-home one of them.


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## evth (Apr 25, 2015)

Congrats on your cute pups! Have you watched YouTuber Stonnie Dennis' video about Littermate Syndrome? It might be helpful.


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## bluegirl1997 (Aug 10, 2019)

I understand not all standard poodles are like my two, but at 11 years old I finally trust there's not an aggressive bone in their bodies. Not toward people, other dogs or each other. So the big vicious sounding wrestle sessions are just posturing and fun. However, poodles loooove to push the envelope so establishing and enforcing boundaries is important! Just so you make sure the poodles know the kids are higher in the pack heirarchy than them (no jumping on kids, no grabbing their food or toys away etc) 

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## bluegirl1997 (Aug 10, 2019)

But I think you'll do great!

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## Kit and Capoodle (Dec 31, 2019)

Schmath said:


> ?‍♀ Hopefully the dogs obey me better than the kids do.


LOL @Schmath, I have said this too! I have a 3.5 year old and a 1.5 year old... You are doing great balancing everything you are! I sometimes resort to the screen for a break too, don't beat yourself up, you're only one woman. I hope you are feeling more reassured about littermate syndrome after hearing from some folks in this thread, but I do understand your apprehension about the play fighting, especially with having kids around. Whatever you decide, it will be OK, but try to enjoy this time. 










This is our puppy Becket at 8wks (now 12wks). He looks a lot like your lighter colored puppy!


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

Kit and Capoodle said:


> LOL @Schmath, I have said this too! I have a 3.5 year old and a 1.5 year old... You are doing great balancing everything you are! I sometimes resort to the screen for a break too, don't beat yourself up, you're only one woman. I hope you are feeling more reassured about littermate syndrome after hearing from some folks in this thread, but I do understand your apprehension about the play fighting, especially with having kids around. Whatever you decide, it will be OK, but try to enjoy this time.
> 
> View attachment 463761
> 
> ...


Oh my goodness! He's so cute! And he does look like my Jerry!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

It sounds like you are being really serious about establishing a good training foundation. That's awesome. I think you will be fine. I'm sure you can tell when your kids are shrieking in excitement vs when one of them has just clobbered another with the Xbox controller. You'll learn to hear the same nuances in puppy wrestling.


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## d81r (Apr 15, 2020)

My family got a female Spoo 1.5 weeks ago. All is going well - we have a great system going with lots of outside adventures (we live on a 26 acre horse farm with 2 kids), inside playtime with our chihuahua, and naps. She’s sleeping through the night. Everything’s going very well.
We just learned a male littermate is being returned to the breeder. I would love a second spoo. 
I watched the Stonnie video on littermates mentioned in this post - am I underestimating they amount of work involved in littermates???
I work one morning per week and drive over an hour each day, twice a day, for my daughter’s school. I could take one puppy at a time in the car. 
Any advice?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

A big concern I see with a puppy of opposite sex is the possibility of having an intact boy in the house if her first heat comes early. Plenty of dogs have chewed through drywall to get to a receptive female.

Some things are easier with two puppies. Some things are harder. They will play and romp together, which will be a great relief to everyone else. However, you need to make time to train each puppy separately as well as together. That means, really, that where you would do a single training session for one puppy you need to set aside time for three training sessions for a pair of puppies. Take one puppy aside and teach it to sit. Take the other aside, and also teach it to sit. Once they understand sit separately, practice together so they learn to handle the distraction of working around a sibling. Repeat with every other topic they need to master over the next couple years.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I got two same age puppies in 2016. I would rather be dipped headfirst in a vat full of coronavirus than do that again. Two puppies to housebreak was bad. Two adolescent dogs was worse. The biggest risk is the dogs bond with one another and do not bond to people. So you end up with a two headed dog where one dog takes all the lead and one dog wilts and doesn't come to full potential. Are you prepared for separate crates, separate dog classes, separate socialization experiences? I made sure Francis and Noelle were separated from one another more than they were together. It was incredibly difficult. Think long and hard before you decide.


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

d81r said:


> My family got a female Spoo 1.5 weeks ago. All is going well - we have a great system going with lots of outside adventures (we live on a 26 acre horse farm with 2 kids), inside playtime with our chihuahua, and naps. She’s sleeping through the night. Everything’s going very well.
> We just learned a male littermate is being returned to the breeder. I would love a second spoo.
> I watched the Stonnie video on littermates mentioned in this post - am I underestimating they amount of work involved in littermates???
> I work one morning per week and drive over an hour each day, twice a day, for my daughter’s school. I could take one puppy at a time in the car.
> Any advice?


For me, it's a lot more work, but that could be because I'm an anxious person. My husband thinks it's no big deal and that the dogs would probably be just fine if I hadn't done any interventions. The interventions I did were taking them to separate puppy classes and making them sleep in separate crates at night. I walked them separately some when they were little, but I gave up on that in favor of walking them longer as they got older. Now that they're in the intermediate training class, I have them in the same class, and my husband and I each handle one, but the trainer has everyone split up into different parts of the store anyway.

One hyper puppy tearing around the house is doable, but two hyper puppies wrestle constantly, which drives me crazy. Maybe that won't bother you, and if your kids don't encourage it like mine do, maybe your pups won't be as hyper. I used to worry that it would escalate into aggression, but that hasn't been a problem so far, probably because I'm constantly breaking up the wrestling by putting them in a down/stay or putting one in a crate or tying them to their crates. I let them wrestle longer outside until it sounds like it's escalating and then I separate them. I make sure they each eat from their own bowl, so there hasn't been any food aggression. I make them sit and look at me until I tell them they can eat. They used to take treats and toys from each other, so I had to either have several of the same treat/toy or put away the coveted treat. 

The training is a pain because you can't easily train them together, as one will obey before the other, so you can't praise them audibly right as they obey without confusing them. There's a lot I'd like to train them to do, but I'm too overwhelmed to try with two, whereas with just one, I think I would do more. 

They are almost 7 months and getting into everything right now. I think it's adolescence combined with added freedom in the house, combined with no where to play outside. We're in the process of switching fences, so they can only go out on a leash. If they had 26 acres to roam, they'd probably burn off a lot of that energy outside. I'm sure things will get better when the fence is done and when they grow out of adolescence. 

Having a boy and a girl has been as little scary as they've reached adolescence, since all the vets in my area stopped doing spays/neuters because of coronavirus. If you want to wait until they're full grown to get them fixed, you'll have to be super vigilant to prevent inbred puppies. I was able to get one of them in last week when the vet opened back up. But that being said, it's still better to have a boy and a girl than two girls, as the girls are more dominant.

Taking one in the car is a great idea for teaching them to be apart. But one of mine gets carsick, so all that driving wouldn't work for us. They are rarely alone, but when they are, they whine constantly, so I could have done a better job at giving them alone time. I like to leave one outside and one inside when I want them to calm down.

Keep in mind that two is twice as much grooming! I might try grooming myself if I only had one, but two is overwhelming. It's expensive to have someone else groom them every month, and the intermittent brushing and bathing I do between grooms would be a lot easier with just one. Sometimes I wish I had a shorthaired, little dog, that I would hardly have to brush and could bathe quickly in the sink. What you save in vacuuming by getting a non-shedding dog, you make up for with grooming!

If I could do it again, I'd just get one, and then maybe get another a year or two later. But there may have been some things that were easier because I had two. And I think when they grow out of adolescence I'll be glad to have all that craziness behind me and not have to start over with a new puppy. 

Good luck with your decision!


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## Schmath (Jan 10, 2020)

I know this post is old, but I wanted to get on here, just in case someone is in the same boat I was and happens upon this post. The pups are almost two and are doing great. All that worrying was for nothing! Maybe it would be different if I hadn't done any training and if I didn't walk them every day, but they've chilled out so much over time, that I suspect they'd be fine either way. They love each other, but they love their people more. They play sometimes, but mostly they each do their own thing, which is usually sleeping at my feet, then following me to my next location and sleeping at my feet some more. No aggression whatsoever.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Thanks for updating! This isn't something I'd recommend to a novice dog or poodle owner, but as you know, if you commit to giving them both the separate and together time, it can be an amazing experience


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

It's so nice to read your update. It's so rare that people come back to update, and even better you worked hard to avoid litter syndrome and now you can look back and see your hard work paid off.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Your interventions paid off. I'm glad to hear you took things seriously in the beginning. I've seen it go the other way. You're reaping the benefits of taking the time to train your puppies and adolescent dogs. Enjoy them. Noelle and Francis are almost six and they are doing great as well.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Great update! Would love to see some pics.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Good job on laying down a proper foundation. The effort of multiple training classes and other training can't have been easy at the time, but now you are reaping the dividends.


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