# Thoughts?



## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Someone i know is looking for a poodle puppy. She has really narrowed her sites on this breeder.

http://www.harmonyhuntingpudels.com/

From their website they look ok. Anyone have any experience with them?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

bigpoodleperson said:


> Someone i know is looking for a poodle puppy. She has really narrowed her sites on this breeder.
> 
> http://www.harmonyhuntingpudels.com/
> 
> From their website they look ok. Anyone have any experience with them?


Well, what is this person looking for? 

Clearly this breeder tests and does some performance things with their dogs which is good. However, they have sure ramped up their breeding program in the last few years and they have quite a lot of breeding bitches. I think at Christmas time they had 4 litters of puppies on the ground. I think this shows poor planning at best. I know how hard it is to correctly train and socialize 1 litter of puppies let alone 4. At worst, it starts to look like a high volume breeding program.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I think that they are "OK" , I guess. 

I wish that they have more AKC titles though.


I have to say that I am actually surprised that they really DID all of the testing (now that I explored more) and that is EXTREMELY rare to find !!!!! 

About 95 % off all breeders who claim that they do testing actually do just a few or just hips and I am just sick an tiered of that charade !!!!!

I also hope that they are reasonably priced.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

ChickyChat bred her dog to their stud Trigger and the litter has some issues...no? I believe it was a heart problem? Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Personally, I do not like the type of dog they breed for. Retrieving ability is awesome and something that needs to be bred for but to me it looks like they have lost a bit on conformation.

Are they wanting just a companion or are they wanting to use the dog as a working retriever?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I co-own a Harmony Mountain boy and he is gorgeous!!! A really handsome, well put together boy. I am confident, because of the crazy amount of testing they do on their breeding dogs that he will ace his tests.

Both of the parents of Chickychats litter have been well looked at by veterinary cardiologists, and have been cleared. From what I underestand,the vets think it was a fluke that this problem arose so would have no qualms whatsoever getting a puppy from either of these breeders.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Yes - that is why I said that I wish they have more AKC titled dogs - at least of what photos are posted on the site, one would like to see a better confirmation present.

Regarding heart problems - it is very interesting :rolffleyes:. Maybe both dogs are just carriers of recessive genes for heart problems and it popped out in the litter with babies who got full set pf genes ! 

Is there a genetic test for that kind of heart problem that aroused in that litter ??? I would be very careful of NOT repeating that breeding and if I was a breeder I would maybe not use those particular dogs at all :rolffleyes:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

When they have both been checked out by cardiologists, I can surely see NOT breeding them together again, but would not be worried about breeding either of them to other mates. It could be like NEWS...that one could be a crrier and the other not, and the pups are safe. But breed two carriers together for an altogether different story. OR, it could be just as they have been told...that it was a fluke.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

This is our boy. Not too shabby for seven months of age! I have seen pups this age that look like they have been held together with rubber bands, but he is a very nice boy.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

> When they have both been checked out by cardiologists, I can surely see NOT breeding them together again, but would not be worried about breeding either of them to other mates.


I thought Chickychat did a repeat breeding on these two. Perhaps i am mistaken?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

How many pups were effected ? If there was more than one that it being it a fluke is out of question :smow:

Yes- many "carriers" are bred to "non-carriers" but with available genetic testing to determine if one is a carrier or not. That is why I asked is there is a genetic test for that particular heart disorder in dogs :rolffleyes:? 

I certainly hope that that breeding was not repeated :wacko:- why would anybody risk such a ting is beyond me : (((


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

They did do a repeat breeding, but it was too early in Paris' cyle and she did not conceive. They did not find out until Lisa got back home after the breeding asbout the pup with the heart problem. Both dogs heart results are on OFA apparently, and they both had echograms done.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Thank goodness it didnt take! Just another reason in my opinion on why you shouldnt do back to back breedings! You cant tell how the litter turned out or what health problems there are yet.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

But it did all work out in the longrun. So now, if it was not a fluke, those two dogs will not be bred again, so nothing to worry about there.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

It didnt really work out in the long run for those two affected puppies. Also, how will they know if it wasnt a fluke unless they are bred again. By the HM page, it doesnt look like they are planning on retiring that stud anytime soon.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Were those two puppies that were effected same gender ?

Yes, I do not believe that back to back breeding is ever a good practice hwell: for many reasons than one... 

Again, as long as there is no genetic testing to check for that defect, only logical path would be not to use those dogs in breeding program at all - just my opinion.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

This was not the first litter nor the last the stud sired, and to my knowledge, this was the first time there was a problem. I would be confident owning a puppy from him. I am and I do. If they had tested the hearts of these two dogs and found things were not right or were questionable, well, then I may feel entirely differently. But, aside from the tragedy of the sick puppy/puppies, there really is nothing more, in my opinion, that the owners of these two dogs could do. The dogs have been tested and cleared. 

If you look at the health testing results on PHR of some of the top winning top producing Standard Poodles of all time,and base whether or not they should have been bred based on those results if these dogs had been pulled from the breeding programs of their owners/breeders, the situation today would be entirely different wouldn't it. The bitch that represented the group at Westminster would not even exist. While I do feel there are dogs that should be pulled from some breeding programs, with the testing having been done on these two, I do not believe there is anything wrong with breeding them, just not to one another.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> But it did all work out in the longrun. So now, if it was not a fluke, those two dogs will not be bred again, so nothing to worry about there.


I am sorry if I made this statement unclear. I did not mean they would not be bred again. I meant they would not be bred again to one another. I apologize.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Oh, I know dear Arreau about all of that :smow:. It is just so that there is no line that is not plagued by some bad genes : (((.

It is just that for things that CAN be genetically tested it is safe bet to breed those animals (if one really must) with non carriers - than none of the puppies will be effected. Although I passed a litter with gorgeous females available since the one that were available were carriers for NE. I know that it would NOT effect my pet puppy in any way - but I did not trust the breeder after I discovered that on my own :fish: on the OFA - she never offered information. 

But, that is another story ...

What I want to say - since there obviously is no genetic test for that heart problem : (((- than sonogram of the hearts of the Dam and the Sire means nothing really : (((. They could have been just carriers of some rare defect and not be effected themselves : (((. 

Yes, it is of course than prerogative not to breed them together - but still - one never knows which OTHER bitch or stud could be just carriers and then produce a sick puppy in that litter unexpectedly : ((. 

I am just like that LOL - I always play it safe and no matter how beautiful that Westminster dog was - I would never wish to have it if it was obviously a product of some Stud that carried who knows what : (((.

Again - it is just me ... I am completely aware that many carriers are bred or shown on regular bases - I just do not like that ... what can I do :rolffleyes:


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> This is our boy. Not too shabby for seven months of age! I have seen pups this age that look like they have been held together with rubber bands, but he is a very nice boy.


Hard to evaluate the dog from these angles. Any chance you have a picture of him stacked?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

No, sorry CBrand. His foster Mom just had him out in the yard playing after his groom and took photos of him chasing a frisbee and being a silly seven month old. We are quite happy with him though and I love his head. He is also darkening a lot since we got him, so hopefully that is a good sign.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I found one that is a bit better.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Here is the better photo.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Can you stack him for us?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

wishpoo said:


> Oh, I know dear Arreau about all of that :smow:. It is just so that there is no line that is not plagued by some bad genes : (((.
> 
> It is just that for things that CAN be genetically tested it is safe bet to breed those animals (if one really must) with non carriers - than none of the puppies will be effected. Although I passed a litter with gorgeous females available since the one that were available were carriers for NE. I know that it would NOT effect my pet puppy in any way - but I did not trust the breeder after I discovered that on my own :fish: on the OFA - she never offered information.
> 
> ...



wishpoo I have had a similar situation that happen to chickchat with my cats.
Its is VERY heart breaking and Lisa aka chickchat did not know about the heart issue before she repeated the breeding. Its a hard lesson learn on why not to do back to back breedings so soon but what is done is done. Paris did not get pregnant with the second breeding.

With my cats we had something that happened between my one stud and one queen. Both where not related at all ! both where healthy and produced health kittens with other cats we had at the time. 

When we would breed these particular two cats together what I got was still births and DEFORMITIES. aka kittens with three legs open eyes at birth !

We repeated the breeding to see if it was a fluke but nope same thing happen still births ! So my sister and I figured maybe we can breed their daughters and sons together and maybe it would clear up the problem. well we bred one son from our stud to the same queen and we got healthy kittens and only one still born. what we did not know is this. I gave two kittens to my friend and both almost died ! the vets did not know what cause it one of the kittens died he was my favorite ! and his sister lived. IMO it had to be something genetically. 

When stuff like this happens you either A) never breed those two line together again or B) cull from the breeding program.

My sister and I decided to keep the stud and we placed the queen with another friend. We do have a son from the queen as our stud but we have a queen who is a complete out cross so there should be no problem there.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> No, sorry CBrand. His foster Mom just had him out in the yard playing after his groom and took photos of him chasing a frisbee and being a silly seven month old. We are quite happy with him though and I love his head. He is also darkening a lot since we got him, so hopefully that is a good sign.


No. As I explained in this post, his foster Mom took the photos the day of his groom, and these are the photos we got (along with a kinds of him being a total goofball playing ball and frisbee). I think the last picture is pretty clear on build and conformation. As I said, we are very happy with him,, and at seven months in these photos, he is well put together and maturing very nicely.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

He also has very lovely feet. Nice tight little cat feet. I love that!


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> No. As I explained in this post, his foster Mom took the photos the day of his groom, and these are the photos we got (along with a kinds of him being a total goofball playing ball and frisbee). I think the last picture is pretty clear on build and conformation. As I said, we are very happy with him,, and at seven months in these photos, he is well put together and maturing very nicely.


So in short your future breeding animal lives with someone else until your ready to use him...correct? :sarcastic:

Like I said before not my preference in type :curl-lip:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Yes. I have four dogs living with me and there are two humans who live in my home. I have two intact females, and one neutered and one intact male, whom I will never breed. I want to expand my possibilities in my breeding program without having another intact male here who could add fuel to fire, so have two males ( one owned outright, the other co-owned with another breeder) who I wish to have in my program but do not feel I can have living in my home. After careful scrutiny of prospective families, they both live in foster homes. Flynn is fostered by my sister and her family, and Toby is fostered by a good friend of someone who purchased a pup from me in 2008 and came highly recommended. This arrangement works beautifully for everyone involved. The boys are in homes where they are a cherished and important member of their families, and I have access to two breeding dogs who will add greatly to my breeding program in the future. I do not have to worry about two intact stud dogs possibly fighting with each other, and do not have the disaccord when the girls are in heat and only have one male howling and being goofy. For me, this is a perfect arrangement.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Yes. I have four dogs living with me and there are two humans who live in my home. I have two intact females, and one neutered and one intact male, whom I will never breed. I want to expand my possibilities in my breeding program without having another intact male here who could add fuel to fire, so have two males ( one owned outright, the other co-owned with another breeder) who I wish to have in my program but do not feel I can have living in my home. After careful scrutiny of prospective families, they both live in foster homes. Flynn is fostered by my sister and her family, and Toby is fostered by a good friend of someone who purchased a pup from me in 2008 and came highly recommended. This arrangement works beautifully for everyone involved. The boys are in homes where they are a cherished and important member of their families, and I have access to two breeding dogs who will add greatly to my breeding program in the future. I do not have to worry about two intact stud dogs possibly fighting with each other, and do not have the disaccord when the girls are in heat and only have one male howling and being goofy. For me, this is a perfect arrangement.


Ah, okay. So you don't show your dogs...or do you?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Not at the moment.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> He also has very lovely feet. Nice tight little cat feet. I love that!


Actually, if you read the standard, "cat feet" are considered a fault. Personally, think he looks like he has rather long toes. They do not seem small or particularly tight to me.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Actually, if you read the standard, "cat feet" are considered a fault. Personally, think he looks like he has rather long toes. They do not seem small or particularly tight to me.


From the pictures posted he looks high in the rear, low tail set and lacks chin. 

Anyway like I said before I don't care for this type of Poodle they produce, but on the plus they do health test and do something with their dogs.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Thnak you for your opinion ladies. By the way...cat feet is just my way to describe nice tight feet.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Thnak you for your opinion ladies. By the way...cat feet is just my way to describe nice tight feet.


Is this the dog that you co own with Silken Standard poodles?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Yes he is the one.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Yes he is the one.


He looks alot like his father..


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

That is nice to hear. Trigger is a handsome fellow.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

You have seen him then ?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I have seen MANY photos of him from Lori and from other people who have used him at stud. I really like him.


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