# Still nipping & biting at 8 months!



## Nicolen (Nov 24, 2013)

Hi all. Well, our sweet Wallace is now over 8 months old. I love him to death. So stinkin cute and funny, we are all crazy about him. But unfortunately, he STILL bites and nips at us. Same problem I've written about before  but it's still happening. After all this time, and all our efforts, he still gets excited and just can not seem to stop himself. And now he's 45 lbs.! He jumps and bites at butts, pant legs, shirtsleeves, etc. and often barks too, or growls (a play growl, the sounds he makes when he's running around playing with a stuffed toy). He does it with house guests too, kids and adults if he starts getting wound up. We can usually see that it's about to happen with house guests, and deter him with a toy, etc. but it's harder with just our family, as we are in and out a lot (3 big kids), and if he's frisky, he will randomly do this.

I have a trainer I will call tomorrow (he worked wonders with a friend's doodle), but please, if you can think of another way to get the point across to him, please feel free! Right now, we stop dead in our tracks, and say firmly "NO BITE!". We turn our back to him (which sometimes means more butt bites!), wait a little while, and then continue on our way. Sometimes he starts again (usually). We also have put him in his crate for a quick time out if he keeps at it. That does seem to calm him, but doesn't seem to deter the behavior from happening again later. Also, this sounds stupid, but it's hard to get him in the crate unless we can quickly grab him. He knows he's in trouble and won't go in, and will run if we move towards him (which we don't want to happen and turn into a game). 

We've tried other things, and I mentioned them in past posts (Tried grabbing his snout tight, as his puppy kindergarten trainer suggested, and he would bite as soon as we let go. Actually seemed to make it worse. Have tried the yelping back in pain, with no effect. Even tried a squirt gun, which did nothing). We have been doing this stop & freeze for a long time now. Consistently. I did realize recently that my husband needs to lower his voice when he says no, and try to make it deeper, but other than that, I don't know what else to try. We are trying to increase his exercise too, which helps because he's tired, but he still does it. There must be a method we just are not familiar with, or we are doing this one incorrectly, so any help would be appreciated. And to make matters worse, we are planning a trip at the end of March (my daughter is studying abroad), and want to leave him with a lovely neighbor who dog sits. I can't have him biting her and her son all week and I'm starting to stress about this. Any help would be appreciated, thanks!!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Your puppy kindergarten teacher is someone who does not belong training dogs. Holding a dog's muzzle closed firmly is aggressive and can make a dog snappy and aggressive. It's terribly intrusive to them. That said, using a crate as a punishment is also a mistake, as it can make the dog dislike going in his crate, as he's showing. I'm sure you don't like feeling like you have to grab him and force him in. All these things...loud voices, force, intimidation, punishment has no good effect on training a dog. The good news is, this can be turned around. 

How much exercise...hard exercise is he getting? How much mental stimulation is he getting? Obedience training? Tricks? He must have his needs met for his behavior to improve. He sounds very pent up.

You can use time outs effectively IF you act immediately, without anger...just matter of fact the second he lays teeth on anybody. Walk him out of the room calmly into another room...Use a leash if you must. Don't talk to him, look at him or pay any kind of attention to him. Leave him there for 30-60 seconds. Not more. Go get him and give him another try. Again, if he bites or jumps, repeat that. The more times he gets to have another try, the better he'll make the connection. When he comes out and is on all fours without biting, immediately give him what he likes....a treat, calm praise, a calm massage, tummy rub, a little toss of a toy. What's important is that you are unwavering in you consistency...the same consequence must happen each and every time he nips or jumps. He must be given an alternative that_ IS _reinforceable right after. In other words, this biting and jumping won't work to get you attention and fun. But this other thing WILL. If you are inconsistent, don't show him the same consequences each and every time, he will not be able to make the connection. 

The more obedience skills he learns, the more you can give him constructive alternatives. So, if he's looking like he's about to do something obnoxious, you can quickly ask for a sit or anything you're teaching him. When a dog is trained using progressive methods, they LOVE learning and showing you their new tricks. I use to intercept my crazy Doberman puppy when he was about to tear into a couch pillow and ask for something. He'd stop dead in his tracks and come perform for me...one thing after the other. Then I'd realize he needs another walk. lol. But I could hold some of that crazy behavior at bay with some of the things he COULD be reinforced for. Pretty soon, the unwanted behavior became less and less as he matured. Your pup is still young. But this is one type of behavior that needs to get under control.

If you don't see any improvement in 2 weeks, see about another trainer. But do find one who uses Progressive methods, not punishment, intimidation, scary things, pain or anything like that because it can turn this silly, snappy stuff into some serious problems later on. 

A few basics about positive training methods or better described as progressive are: 

Distract (away from the no no)

Better yet: Prevent the no no wherever you can.

Offer an alternative that IS reinforcing.

Go ahead an use some Negative Punishment which does not mean bad punishment. It means removing the good thing to stop a behavior from being repeated... if you want your dog to repeat a behavior less, _remove_ any reward or perceived reward for the behavior. So, remove the ability to have those fun times; the jumping, biting, the family being around, by walking him away into another room for a half minute and try again. Don't show tension, anger or anything...just let's go...matter of fact.

Make sure he's getting adequate outlets for his energy.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

take a look at post #5 by firestorm, which gives some great examples of how hans was trained. there's a follow up post later - #17 - on self-control training. http://www.poodleforum.com/23-gener...73-jumping-bentley-need-stop.html#post1565945.

from what you've said, i think wallace is after attention - even if it's negative. so telling him "no" is still rewarding him, because you are speaking to him and acknowledging him. at the same time, you haven't exactly singled out what you do want and haven't created a command for that. 

so how about a two-pronged approach. when he has all four on the floor and is calm, give that behavior a name (calm? settle?) and give a teeny tiny treat and praise him. do this often so he gets the idea that four on the floor and being calm mean good things are coming. 

when he jumps, if turning your back and playing statue doesn't work, face him, stand still, fold your arms and turn your head to the left, nose in the air. do not look at him. do not talk to him. when he has all four feet on the floor, say the command word and praise him. if the kids are in and out a lot, maybe keep a treat jar with small treats near the door to help reinforce that "calm" is when he gets a treat.

everyone in the household has to do exactly the same thing. no variations. everyone has to praise and treat when he is calm and ignore in the same way when he is jumping and biting. (keep the treats tiny or you will have a very large, overweight dog!)

if his size is a problem, raise your knee up at chest level. do not thrust your knee at your dog. just raise it up in front of you and keep it steady to limit the impact of him trying to use your chest to bounce up on. i'm 5'1" and i used this successfully on a hyperactive, young, but full-grown border collie at the dog park to keep from being bowled over. it just prevented the dog from gaining traction while trying to leap up on me and lick my face - no harm intended by the dog, but she came at a run and i would have been knocked over otherwise.

and of course exercise matters for a dog with this much energy. and as others have suggested in your previous thread, brain games matter, too.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I forgot to post this helpful video. Take a look. All these things take some practice and a lot of self control on our part really...it's work for sure to stay the course and be so on top of things. But it can be fun work and it will pay off in not too much time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I've posted this before, but Hans was like this. Saying "no" or yelping didn't really work with him, because he seems to operate with the belief that any reaction, even a negative one, is still worth getting. I'm copying and pasting from another thread I posted this in, because I don't want to re type it:

We instituted a policy of "4 on the floor." He only gets attention if his feet are on the ground. Also, when you ignore the jumping, you have to really, really ignore. No eye contact, no talking, not movement. Until he gives up. If you ignore him for a short time and then react you may accidentally be teaching him that if he is persistent enough he will get a reaction.

I'll use an example of the retrieving dummy since that's the easiest to explain. So if we were out in the field with the dummy, Hans would start jumping, nipping, trying to grab the dummy, etc. We just committed to outlasting him, no matter how obnoxious he was. Stood perfectly still with a secure grip on the dummy and ignored him, no matter how long it took (long pants and long sleeve shirt help, too). If we stood there for 15 or 20 minutes with him acting like some sort of demented kangaroo - Tasmanian devil hybrid then that was how it was. The instant he stopped, we threw the dummy (his reward). It didn't take him long to figure out that the only way to get what he wanted was to behave appropriately.

Also, here are some of the impulse control exercises we did with Hans that I think really helped him (again, I'm copying and pasting). 

The first thing is the way we taught him to stay. It seems kind of backwards, because you sort of start with stays with distraction but it really does work. I think you could start with either a sit-stay or down-stay...probably whichever command your dog knows best will work. What you do is have the dog sit, reward for the sit and then immediately after rewarding the sit dangle a treat about 2 feet away, so the dog would have to move to get it. Of course, he'll get up. As soon as he gets up you remove the reward (we moved it up and away) and say "too bad". Repeat. After several repetitions, the dog will eventually stay sitting for just a second. Reward immediately, while the dog is still sitting. 

We repeated this until he was consistent at this level, then did the same thing for longer stays, with the reward/distraction in different locations (i.e. on the floor instead of in hand, etc). We practice the same general thing with all sorts of distractions other than food now. Stay for retrieve, stay then chase a squirrel, stay while one of us runs around the yard with a fun toy. If he gets up, we freeze and there is no play. If he stays, he gets an exciting play session. I think the stays for play sessions are great because he gets to do the exciting play and then go back to a stay so he practices stay even though he's pretty hyped up. Now he has rock solid stays, and he looks so happy to be staying. The more he wants the distraction, the "harder" he stays - he gets this really focused look with his tail going the whole time. 

Another thing we did was the way we taught recall. It's called a "Premack Recall" in the book I have, after psychologist David Premack. It is a little complicated so I'm reading the section in the book while I try to explain it. 
Phase one is this: 
1) Get a super awesome reward that your dog has never had before. I mean really awesome. 

2) Decide on a cue that your dog has never heard. We used 3 blasts of a whistle. 

3)Make 5 1 serving bags of the awesome reward. 

4)Once a day for 5 days, hide a serving of the awesome reward near you but out of reach for the dog. If the dog comes over to check it out, wait until he gives up. 

5)While the dog isn't paying any attention to you, make the sound you chose ONCE. Wait 1 or 2 seconds. Then, where ever the dog is, reward him (even if you have to go find him in another room). Praise him while he eats the reward, then walk away. Repeat this once a day for 5 days. 

Phase 2 (you need a helper): 

1)Give the helper a handful of rewards (it can be food or a toy but I used food) and let your dog sniff, lick, nibble, etc but not actually have the rewards. 
2)Stand 6 feet or so away (you should not have any rewards).
3)Make the sound you used in phase one ONCE then encourage the dog to come. Keep coaxing but don't repeat the sound, even if it takes several minutes. 
4)Eventually the dog will come. No matter how long it took, praise him when he does. While you are praising him, the helper should race over and reward the dog. The dog has to get the reward while he's in position (with you). Repeat. 

Then we practiced this in other locations, with other rewards, over a longer distance, etc. 

The last thing is something I came up with on my own, that I do while clicker training (I'm addicted to clicker training so Hans is learning lots of random things like how to turn on light switches). A lot of times when we do a clicker session I sit on the floor with a pile of treats next to me in plain sight. Of course Hans doesn't get any unless he does whatever behavior we are working on and he knows that now. But every now and then he stares at the treats and you can see the wheels turning. The treats are right there, but he can't just take them. He has to do whatever he's supposed to be doing. I think it is good practice for him, but maybe it's my imagination.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Lol, thanks Patk, you beat me to it


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

it's great advice and should be a sticky. not sure how to get that to happen.


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## Nicolen (Nov 24, 2013)

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. And thank you for letting me vent (again)! It's just figuring out a way to control this one aspect of this big, sweet, goofy boy's behavior. It definitely is attention seeking behavior and crazy puppy energy. We are an active family, but not particularly loud and do give him LOTS and LOTS of love and attention. 

I am insisting that all members of my family read your responses. Lots of good ideas. Will talk to the trainer today too and keep you posted.

Thanks again!


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

Try leaving him with a trainer while your away. A GOOD trainer can do wonders with quick short sessions.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Desiree said:


> Try leaving him with a trainer while your away. A GOOD trainer can do wonders with quick short sessions.



A bad one like poodleb said could make matters a lot worse.
I had a trainer that believed in negative reinforcement , you should steer clear away from that. Each time he came made it seem like only his methods work. It only encourages aggression, which I never saw in Zoe, but it made me want to cry with his cruelty. He had me slamming the crate as she steps out to teach her she comes out only when i say, that I am the pack leader and boss. There are many other ways she could learn to be obedient, which she wants to please in the first place. It never felt right , I can't believe in this day and age trainers are using these archaic methods.
Sorry I don't have good advice about the nipping, Zoe only did it for a short while. Sounds like a good trainer will help and know what to do.


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## Nicolen (Nov 24, 2013)

Yes, I am against a trainer using negative reinforcement (if that's what it's called). Wallace is very sensitive, we would never use harsh methods with him. He is a gentle soul, and gets spooked easily, but I can tell that he wants to please us. He just can't seem to get control of it (and either can we!)

Thanks!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Nicolen said:


> *Yes, I am against a trainer using negative reinforcement (if that's what it's called). *Wallace is very sensitive, we would never use harsh methods with him. He is a gentle soul, and gets spooked easily, but I can tell that he wants to please us. He just can't seem to get control of it (and either can we!)
> 
> Thanks!


Here's an explanation of the four quadrants of operant conditioning:

Dog Training Methods and Behavior Problems

Many people say there are so many ways to train a dog and that no one way works for all. This is true if we're talking about different motivators, different attention spans, various rewards, etc etc. But as far as the concepts of learning theory, there are only two concepts...good things happen or bad things happen. And those consequences are what drive behavior. It's a matter of whether one wants to apply a lot of force, intimidation, punishment etc or if they want to utilize positive reinforcement more and prevent or distract from the things people tend to feel a need to use harsh aversives for in the first place and re-direct and reinforce. There are a lot of detrimental side effects to a lot of punishment. The more wanted behaviors that are reinforced, the more frequently they will occur and when a dog's mind is full of constructive things to do that he's being reinforced for, he has less brain space, less time to perform shenanigans.


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