# Family Affair



## fjm

I entirely agree about the biblical quotations - very strange! To be fair, though, the pedigree information is all there for each of the dams/studs (saccherinely referred to as "Ladies" and "Gentlemen"). Most of the site strikes me as weird in the extreme, but then I am a Brit! We would be wary of any breeder who offered to ship a pup to someone they had not met - the advantage of living in a small country.


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## roxy25

I would not buy from them if It was me buying.

Are any of her dogs health tested ? She has 2 litters born around the same time 17 puppies they are trying to sell right now :wacko:


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## Purley

Yes. We don't think anything of shipping a puppy to someone you haven't met. Or buying a puppy from a breeder you haven't met. One of the disadvantages of living in a huge country!!


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## neVar

Shipping is fairly normal here. just a large city to large city can be a 7 hour drive at the shortest.
Biblical qoutes seems to be big with poodle and mini aussie breeders. Of course it can be just that i'm only parusing those sites mostly. but again i say MINI aussie (HMMM and DOODLE) breeders which well tends to put them into the 'i don't respect you' catagory. Course i'm also very sensitive to it being from a very religion has caused issues in our family type family. But then i have issues with schools saying grace and using christian things in it- why can't it just be a 'thank you' ... ok i'm rambling. 

I do think that parts of the US it is more standard to see biblical qoutes then others.. . you know? 

Oy the pic on the first page  not what i'd use but tha'ts just picking hairs. 

I don't agree with selling intact dogs to just who ever. Personally i think it should be on a co own basis only- but that's me. They do at least state in their contract that using the dog to mix breed is not allowed. How to police that though? doubt it. not sure what's with the not registering it CKC though... 

The contract itself is not bad... but what's with the 'if being given for a gift or a surprise" OY i don't think that's kosher what so ever. Gifts/surprises should never be a dog!


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## JoeyLondon

neVar said:


> Shipping is fairly normal here. just a large city to large city can be a 7 hour drive at the shortest.
> Biblical qoutes seems to be big with poodle and mini aussie breeders. Of course it can be just that i'm only parusing those sites mostly. but again i say MINI aussie (HMMM and DOODLE) breeders which well tends to put them into the 'i don't respect you' catagory. Course i'm also very sensitive to it being from a very religion has caused issues in our family type family. But then i have issues with schools saying grace and using christian things in it- why can't it just be a 'thank you' ... ok i'm rambling.
> 
> I do think that parts of the US it is more standard to see biblical qoutes then others.. . you know?
> 
> Oy the pic on the first page  not what i'd use but tha'ts just picking hairs.
> 
> I don't agree with selling intact dogs to just who ever. Personally i think it should be on a co own basis only- but that's me. They do at least state in their contract that using the dog to mix breed is not allowed. How to police that though? doubt it. not sure what's with the not registering it CKC though...
> 
> The contract itself is not bad... but what's with the 'if being given for a gift or a surprise" OY i don't think that's kosher what so ever. Gifts/surprises should never be a dog!


Y'know, if the Bible quotes had had more to do with dogs, or animals in general, rather than reminders of their belief that their religion is the only way to be a good person, I would have gone along with it.

Thanks for finding the pedigree page. I feel a little silly that I missed it- in my defense, however, I was still reeling from all the Jesus.


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## JoeyLondon

roxy25 said:


> I would not buy from them if It was me buying.
> 
> Are any of her dogs health tested ? She has 2 litters born around the same time 17 puppies they are trying to sell right now :wacko:


That's one of the things I'm wondering! Plus, all of those puppies that need homes make me a bit nauseous. I mean, WHY breed yet more puppies if you can't find homes for the (LARGE) number of ones you already have??


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## cdensmore

Well, I have been looking at a puppy from them, and have gone to their kennel to physically meet the puppies, and I really can say they are doing a great job. All of their dogs, puppies included, are well socialized and friendly. They know each dog and puppy's personality and pedigree, dates of whelping off the tops of their heads.

They might not be breeding to a "show" standard, though there are some of their dogs being shown and doing well. The puppies that are for sale are the last of litters, and most of their litters are sold by the time they are born. The dogs are all happy, healthy, active. They do all their own grooming (one of the owners used to own a grooming salon) and that's a huge job in and of itself.

The Christian stuff, well, it's their site, and something is going to offend somebody somewhere.

I have no qualms about a puppy from them, and feel better about their knowledge of the breed than the lady I got my girl from, who also breeds labradoodles (shudder).

The only gripe I had was thier kennel employee used some questionable language in front of my two boys, but she is seriously country. She still seemed to be knowledgable about the dogs/puppies.


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## dawns

neVar said:


> not sure what's with the not registering it CKC though...


the ckc registration she is probably talking about is the continental kennel club, which in the south is a joke registry.


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## cdensmore

The other poster is Canadian, maybe that's Canadian Kennel Club? 

Family Affair's dogs are AKC, not Continental Kennel Club.


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## bigpoodleperson

Im glad you like them, and hope you get the puppy you want!

I personally would not buy from a breeder who had to have kennel help to keep all the dogs. Also, its great that they can "keep track" of the whelp dates. I dont want a breeder who has that many litters at a time to "keep track" of them all though.


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## cbrand

That is a whole lot of breeding dogs and quite frankly a whole lot of older unsold puppies. They look like they are doing some testing on their dogs which is great, but otherwise they look like a typical high volume breeding operation. Looking at their pedigrees, their dogs look like they themselves come from other high volume operations (it's great that these guys sell each other breeding dogs!)

As usual with these sort of operations I always want to ask.... if you have time to breed this many dogs, don't you have time to do something else with your dogs? Show? Obedience? Agility? Tracking? Therapy? Poodles can be so much more than walking puppy factories.


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## frostfirestandards

There are a ton of dogs, they do not live in the homes with the owners, and instead live in paddocks. 
Its kind of like a poodle plantation. 

They do do some testing but they are not opposed to breeding on prelims, and mainly only test for hips. (may be more testing by now) 

They are breeding more for color and what popular than for correct conformation. 


this is where we got Jamie, before we knew any better. They also had us bring her home at 6 weeks. 

All in all they are VERY nice people, with a clean, well organized facility, and yes the dogs are friendly and do not act like kennel dogs, but there is no reason to have that many breeding animals other than to turn a profit.


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## Fluffyspoos

Major red flag I saw is a photoshopped image... Mochi, on sires page. I HATE that.


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## JoeyLondon

cdensmore said:


> The Christian stuff, well, it's their site, and something is going to offend somebody somewhere.
> 
> I have no qualms about a puppy from them, and feel better about their knowledge of the breed than the lady I got my girl from, who also breeds labradoodles (shudder).
> 
> The only gripe I had was thier kennel employee used some questionable language in front of my two boys, but she is seriously country. She still seemed to be knowledgable about the dogs/puppies.


To clarify: I'm not 'offended' by the Christian stuff- I'm just suspicious of people that spackle Jesus over what they're doing, to distract you from the holes in their walls. I.e., I feel that they're using christian references to get average dog-seekers to look less critically at their actual breeding practices. 

I'm glad to hear that the dogs seem happy. I just wonder how long the dogs can STAY happy if the breeders keep producing more and more puppies that they fail to sell.


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## CurlyDog

*Don't be too Quick to Judge*

I was a little put off by all the bible references and the number of dogs. I've seen shady people hide behind "religion"... After talking to Wendy, one of the co-breeders, I was impressed. She was very knowledgable and took quite a bit of time answering my questions. Since I had a 9 hour drive, I wanted to be sure they were legit. I had also visited a number of breeders that seemed great on the phone and web but in person, were a little scary. a lot of "in home" breeders have a ton of dogs stuffed in crates that are not only missing human socialization, but interaction with each other. 

I got my sister to go for a visit and she gave a big thumbs up. Wendy helped us pick a puppy and was very honest about trying to find the right personality for our situation. They do things a bit differently but if you think about it, the show breeders have motives that are not always best for the buyer or the breed (such as excessive inbreeding). Family Affair Standards has a very nice setup with very organized records. 

We have had our puppy for two and a half weeks now and are so happy. Our vet was surprised and impressed. He said he usually finds at least two issues of concern with standards and other purebreds. He said this puppy was very healthy. Also interesting, I've had no socialization issues. That may be due to his individual personality (very strong and outgoing). He's happy and curious and loves everyone. Now, if I can just get past the nippy stage! Haha!


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## Keithsomething

CurlyDog said:


> They do things a bit differently but if you think about it, *the show breeders have motives that are not always best for the buyer or the breed (such as excessive inbreeding)*. Family Affair Standards has a very nice setup with very organized records.


Who ever told you that bit of information is wrong...flat out
the purpose of "show" breeders is to breed the standard poodle so that it matches the written standard put forth by the PCA...the end, I'm about 100% sure that there aren't breeders choosing studs with a malevolent motive behind them such as making INBRED DOGS :afraid:

I think its odd whenever I see someone adamantly defending a breeder that clearly has their priorities WRONG...when they themselves have little to no experience or involvement with an actual "show" breeder
So where would they be getting their comparison?...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Keithsomething said:


> Who ever told you that bit of information is wrong...flat out
> the purpose of "show" breeders is to breed the standard poodle so that it matches the written standard put forth by the PCA...the end, I'm about 100% sure that there aren't breeders choosing studs with a malevolent motive behind them such as making INBRED DOGS :afraid:
> 
> I think its odd whenever I see someone adamantly defending a breeder that clearly has their priorities WRONG...when they themselves have little to no experience or involvement with an actual "show" breeder
> So where would they be getting their comparison?...


Keith...you know I love you, but I have to disagree with you to a degree. You and I both know there are loads of show breeders whose soul purpose in breeding is winning. Ribbons and accolades being the motivator. Never a thought that THIS dog has produced THIS disease a number of times...oh well...it's gorgeous and its kids are gorgeous, so we'll deal with it because its offspring win in the ring. I hate to point fingers, but why else would someone resurrect sperm that has been frozen from Eaton Affirmed for eons, to produce Yes. She is without a doubt a gloriously beautiful bitch, but at what cost? And then there was talk she was going to be bred back to her Father's semen????? OMG! With the amount of illness he has produced (and yes I know it is relative because he HAS been bred a gazillion times) and a COI as high as his, I am sorry, I just don't get it. This is not the only time something like this has gone on, and I am not for one second suggesting that all show breeders do things this way, but, there are plenty whose primary concern is winning and producing pups who will also win. at any cost and with no consideration to the future of the breed or the health of the pups produced.


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## 2719

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I have to disagree with you to a degree. You and I both know there are loads of show breeders whose soul purpose in breeding is winning. Ribbons and accolades being the motivator. Never a thought that THIS dog has produced THIS disease a number of times...oh well...it's gorgeous and its kids are gorgeous, so we'll deal with it because its offspring win in the ring.
> 
> But, there are plenty whose primary concern is winning and producing pups who will also win. at any cost and with no consideration to the future of the breed or the health of the pups produced.


AGREED.

I think every breeder should be judged on their own merits and set up. Yes you should breed to better the breed...definitely. But showing a standard poodle is expensive. It is few breeders that can show their own poodle. The ring is full of handlers who do the job all year, every year. They groom and show the dog expertlyl...it is very hard to compete with this and will probably cost more money in entry fees, travel and grooming than paying for a handler.

A small home-based breeder may not have the monetary ability to gain a CKC or AKC title. (Although many will pipe up that this is an investment.) All classes for Agility, Obedience etc. etc. cost money. I think there are other cost effective ways to ensure that the poodles you are breeding are bettering the breed. Learn proper structure..continually educate yourself on structure, health, nutrition etc. Maintain relationships with other, knowledgeable breeders...to share knowledge and information. Temperment can be proven through Canine Good Neighbour (Citizen). Enjoy your spoos...hike with them...socialise them....Don't have more than you can individually love and care for properly. A life in a kennel is no life...how is this bettering the breed. What is the point of a beautifully structured, health tested dog if it is spending its life caged?

If you get a good feeling from this breeder (and many have) it is ultimately your decision.


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## NOLA Standards

I'm here to defend Keith... (here I would like to insert the little smile guy with his sword!)

His statement wasn't incorrect. 

I too get quite tired of hearing " show breeders want the accolades and sacrifice the health blah blah" + offer an extreme example.

Yes - there are some - more the exception than the rule. 

And, I'd make a heavy bet there are MANY more pet breeders churning out structurally (and in temperment if not in health) substandard poodles for a "dollah" than there are show breeders sacrificing health for the perfect poodle.

Grab a pen and make a list - see which one is longer.

R.E. The Eaton Affirmed/Yessie commentary. It criticizes a show breeder for breeding for a CH yet ignores perhaps the biggest point of the breeding (as related to pets and this discussion of a high volume breeder). *Yessie's pups were never[/U] offered to the general public- and especially not to other breeders for breeding.* 
(I've also not heard of any health issues in the litter - and I would have).

Keith is correct that pet breeders toss out a multitude of arguments in the defense of their failure to give back to the breed that they are using to pay the bills.

You can love the breed - here I believe we all do - but there is no reason to mass produce poodles without proving. "Pet" or "show" breeder - the rule applies.


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## CurlyDog

*Interesting Comments*

I should have prefaced my comment about unscrupulous show breeders to clarify that I certainly did not intend to imply that that is the norm. I was just trying to show that being a "show breeder", doesn't guarantee that you will get the best puppy. 

I'm enjoying reading all the comments and you bring up a lot of good points. I am certainly not the expert! For instance I think NOLA said: "You can love the breed - here I believe we all do - but there is no reason to mass produce poodles without proving. "Pet" or "show" breeder - the rule applies.". I also have to admit that I don't think "full registration" should be an option for any puppy. I've had my share of puppies that the breeder has declared unfit for breeding that were perfect pets, and for good reason. 

I do try to stay educated and try to be open minded while avoiding puppy mills and "backyard breeders", meaning those who breed a dog for fun without a lot of knowledge and consideration to maintaining the standard without sacrificing health and temperament. 

I just think it is more complicated and not as cut and dried as simply going to a breeder that shows and is listed on the AKC site that may or may not keep the pups in the house...

Looking forward to learning lots more...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

NOLA Standards said:


> I'm here to defend Keith... (here I would like to insert the little smile guy with his sword!)
> 
> His statement wasn't incorrect.
> 
> I too get quite tired of hearing " show breeders want the accolades and sacrifice the health blah blah" + offer an extreme example.
> 
> Yes - there are some - more the exception than the rule.
> 
> And, I'd make a heavy bet there are MANY more pet breeders churning out structurally (and in temperment if not in health) substandard poodles for a "dollah" than there are show breeders sacrificing health for the perfect poodle.
> 
> Grab a pen and make a list - see which one is longer.
> 
> R.E. The Eaton Affirmed/Yessie commentary. It criticizes a show breeder for breeding for a CH yet ignores perhaps the biggest point of the breeding (as related to pets and this discussion of a high volume breeder). *Yessie's pups were never[/U] offered to the general public- and especially not to other breeders for breeding.*
> (I've also not heard of any health issues in the litter - and I would have).
> 
> Keith is correct that pet breeders toss out a multitude of arguments in the defense of their failure to give back to the breed that they are using to pay the bills.
> 
> You can love the breed - here I believe we all do - but there is no reason to mass produce poodles without proving. "Pet" or "show" breeder - the rule applies.




There are exceptions to the rule on both sides of your argument. Where did Antionette and B come from? A show breeder? No they didn't. So, doesn't this prove that there are what you call "pet breeders" producing pups that can win in the ring? So, I suppose there are opinions on both sides of this, and that is all they are...opinions. 

How old is " Yessie's" litter? Old enough that health issues would indeed arisen by now? Did they indeed breed her to her Father's semen?

And who says anyone is mass producing puppies without "proving" ? How do you know these people do not have pups in obedience, agility or rally homes? Or puppies with their CGC's? I do not know this breeder from Adam, but do not think it right to judge without knowing. And they could very well one day produce a puppy (or several) who could do well in the ring. Your breeder did.


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## NOLA Standards

The point of my post = not condoning mass poodle production and promoting proving the animals you breed and ok - not knocking show breeders unless you are one (I are one! ha) or have firsthand experience with an illustration (like Yessie).

Animals with titles (this many know - it's for those that don't) have the titles affixed to their names - even a Canine Good Citizen. I didn't look at the breeder in question - BUT if their "Ladies and Gentleman" are titled, it will be noted.

That's how we would know if they were being proved instead of just being bred.

R.E Yessie's breeding. I do believe she was bred to Deja Blue - or AKC GR CH LitilAnn's Deja Blue. Not sure about her first breeding - could prob find it on PHR or PP. She's healthy and fully tested. I don't know firsthand what pups - if any were kept from her litters for showing and then breeding. Given her status, I'm pretty certain we would have all heard if that were the case.

R.E Annie and B - Annie has her AKC CH - B will get hers. Yes a pet breeder can produce a quality pup. I never said they couldn't. There are pet pups that are the exception. I happen to have 2 - but they are the *exception*. Here I could easily tangent about pple not showing offering "show quality pups" - huge eye roll and since you are all reading it and can't hear me - heavy sarcasm...stopping now before I get really started...

HOWEVER, a pet breeder did NOT work for her title. I did. 

Point being an AKC CH title needs a quality dog, time, money, love, dedication, a desire to learn and improve and sacrifice.

I don't know the breeder being debated on this post from Adam, either. BUT, my efforts in AKC conformation were all over my website - well *before* I ever bred my first litter. Annie's CA title pursuit is on the website - Lombardi (pup from my first breeding) is being shown off with pride - B's journey is chronicled and a decent (if I say so myself as I wrote it :amen breeding opinion is written on the puppies page.

We "show" breeders do not mind tooting our horns. When I don't see promotion of a title - even CGC or a UKC something - or even a mention of why it's important - it's usually -maybe not always but I can't think of an example - not being done.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## PaddleAddict

NOLA Standards said:


> Animals with titles (this many know - it's for those that don't) have the titles affixed to their names - even a Canine Good Citizen. I didn't look at the breeder in question - BUT if their "Ladies and Gentleman" are titled, it will be noted.


I have been following this thread with interest, but had not yet looked at the breeder's website... so I just looked and I did not see any performance titles on any of their dogs (and BTW, WOW they have a lot of breeding dogs)... so I wonder how they are "proving" their breeding stock? In any way?

I agree that there are some show breeders doing things wrong, but there are so many doing things right. In any avenue you will find people who aren't doing things the right way, but it's annoying when pet breeders use the "show bred dogs are unhealthy and inbred" excuse to try to claim why their dogs are better... why in the world would you breed if you are not proving your dogs in some avenue, pet in conformation or performance or both?

And from their website it seems they are not conforming to the breed standard, breeding a variety of body styles, etc., and combining various body styles????

"We offer the more dainty fine-lined show type standard poodle puppies as well as the heavier boned, stocky-built, hunting/retriever lines. We use our Ladies at Family Affair Standard Poodles to combine these two conformation types and are able to produce a great all-round standard poodle puppy for your next family member."

This makes absolutelty no sense, if everyone just did what they felt like all poodles would look different. This is why there is a breed standard.


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## PaddleAddict

Also, I see no mention of any health testing on these dogs? That to me would be a deal breaker, especially with a breed like the standard poodle.


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## CurlyDog

*Health Testing*

What is the norm? Are puppies normally health tested, or just the parents? I know with collies because of the eye problems, I expected to have that done. What is the norm with poodles? My puppy did come with a 3 or 8 year health guarantee (depending on the issue).


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## PaddleAddict

A number of health tests should be performed on the breeding dogs. Puppies are not tested. The tests that should be performed are not "vet checkups" but are formal, specialized tests. The dogs typically must be 2 years of age before the tests can be completed (I believe this is the hip dysplasia testing). 

I have a mini, not a standard, so I can't remember what is recommended for standards off the top of my head but someone else should be able to chime in. For minis, the biggies are a genetic test for PRA (a disease that can cause a dog to go blind) and a test for the patellas (knees).

Testing in not a guarantee of perfect health, but is a minimum requirement in my opinion. Long-time, conscientious breeders also know health issues that have occurred in various pedigrees as well as in their own dogs, and work to breed away from these issues. Some diseases cannot be tested for (for instance Addison's disease) and others seem to have a genetic or familiar component, but this has not be definitively identified (i.e., bloat).

When you find a long-time, reputable breeder, you are banking on their experience when it comes to health and temperament, too. My breeder has been in poodles for more than three decades. That's a lot of knowledge! Yes, she is a show breeder. She is very conscientious, she has healthy, beautiful dogs with very poodlely temperaments. 
I guess my question is, if they are not health testing their breeding dogs and not showing or competing in performance events, what exactly are you paying for? I read on their website that they have been breeding poodles only since 2006, so you aren’t paying for experience. 

Anyone can collect a number of nice dogs and breed them together over and over again… My health-tested, lifetime guaranteed, gorgeous, stable poodle with champion relatives in 100% of his five-generation pedigree cost the same as what they are selling one of their “full registration” standards. I feel like I got a lot for my money—what do their puppy buyers get?


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## Trillium

Interesting discussion. I don't usually get involved in these kind of discussions simply because I feel that, though I've been involved with poodles for over 17 years now and have spent the last few years learning about health testing and going through it with 2 dogs, spending hours and hours researching pedigrees, learning a bit about grooming, learning about showing and seeing Quincy getting points, and soon I'll be learning hands on about whelping not to mention the all the other poodle and dog things I've learned and am learning, I simply don't have the experience that some of the members have who have been doing this for most of their life and I prefer to listen and learn. 

That said I just thought I'd mention a something I came across this week. I got my copy of "Dogs in Canada" this week and there was quite a bit in it about Canada's top show dogs. I was really interested in it. They even had lists of the top 5 dogs of each breed in the different classes. Of course I went right over to the spoo section. These spoos according to the magazine were the top 5 in 2010. GCH Classique Scaramouche CGN, GCVh Vetset Happy Days CGN, Ch Hillwood Ale Kai Dynamo, Ch Diplomat Carrington's So Hot, and CH Marubi's Singing in Harmony. Four out of five of these dogs are black (the other was white). I looked up their pedigrees on phr and of those 5 dogs 4 of them had very frightening health issues very close to the dog. These are stunning dogs BUT the health issues in the line scare me to death. Not to mention the coi of one of these dogs was 29.7. The others were better. It is interesting to note that in such a small sample of very well known and lovely dogs that such issues exist.


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## PaddleAddict

Also, I wanted to say that I don't mean to sound like your puppy is not sweet and wonderful--I am sure he is! I am more comment on breeding practices, not the dogs themselves.


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## Trillium

We test our spoo parents for hips, eyes, thyroid, vWd, ne, SA, dm, cardiac and patella's.


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## CurlyDog

*Experience*

To be fair, her mom (who is still involved) has 20 years experience breeding standard poodles and westies. 

I realize there are some things they could do differently, but I don't think it's fair to lump them with puppy mills. They seem to me to be very conscientious. They also raise dogs for a program that uses them as occupational therapy dogs for kids with autism. That alone tells me that they have dogs with good temperaments. It takes a special dog to have the patience and tolerance for kids with special needs.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

*We "show" breeders do not mind tooting our horns. When I don't see promotion of a title - even CGC or a UKC something - or even a mention of why it's important - it's usually -maybe not always but I can't think of an example - not being done.
*

When my Mom was breeding and showing many dogs to their championship, a less egocentric human being could not be found. She was thrilled about our dog's accomplishments, but NEVER crammed it down anyone's throats. She would place simple ads and let the quality of the dogs speak for themselves.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

CurlyDog said:


> To be fair, her mom (who is still involved) has 20 years experience breeding standard poodles and westies.
> 
> I realize there are some things they could do differently, but I don't think it's fair to lump them with puppy mills. They seem to me to be very conscientious. They also raise dogs for a program that uses them as occupational therapy dogs for kids with autism. That alone tells me that they have dogs with good temperaments. It takes a special dog to have the patience and tolerance for kids with special needs.


I am not defending or criticizing this breeder because I do not know them or anything about them well enough to do either. But seriously...there is NO perfect breeder doing everything right who will please all the people all the time. If anyone finds one, PLEASE...send me the link to their web site 'cause I gotta see this!!! I do sincerely hope they are doing their health testing on the breeding dogs. That would be my biggest concern.


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## NOLA Standards

At some point most of us have or have had a wonderful, much loved poodle from a byb or pet breeder.

So please don't take my promoting responsible breeding practices and not being impressed with poor/not so great breeding practices as an insult to anyone's "baby". (I am as passionate as I am about being a good breeder because of my first poodle - who was from a byb. She died much too young and had health issues early in life).

R.E: "Experience" On one hand I would say experience is a must. I am being mentored by some truly wonderful breeders and exhibitors/handlers. The amazing success I had with my first breeding is the result of excellent choice - input provided by those with much more knowledge than me. On the other hand, tell me someone has 20 years experience breeding and I'll say, "Yeah? What/who is their line? What have they accomplished?" (With 20 years experience, I should have heard of the line/animals). 

Breeding doesn't really require experience. Two intact animals will mate without our assistance, so having a boy poodle mate with a girl poodle - especially if you own them both - does not add up as "experience" IMO.

R.E. Service Dogs I think poodles as service animals are wonderful. I had 2 out of this litter go to families with special needs and 1 for certain is receiving training. I think it's absolutely fabulous that these pups will go above and beyond - BUT, unless I donated the pup and was actively involved in a program I wouldn't promote it.

And, really, these are just my thoughts. To me they are the way to go - the only right way - the...well you get the idea. 

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## tintlet

NOLA Standards said:


> <<<<We "show" breeders do not mind tooting our horns. When I don't see promotion of a title - even CGC or a UKC something - >>>>
> 
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards


Hmmmmmm... UKC performance titles are more difficult than AKC performance titles. Just needed to clarify


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## NOLA Standards

My apologies, Tintlet. Mostly I was thinking conformation. Sorry.

Annie (probably for another thread - apologize for the hijack) has run 2 legs for her CA Title. I just KNEW she would get her title last weekend and she looked at the lure, looked at me and trotted off to potty!

ACK!

It was 97 degrees out...so I'm thinking we'll wait until it's cooler and she's in a better mood???

Tabatha


PS And when she gets it - I'll do a simple ad - in POODLE VARIETY and POODLE REVIEW - and let the quality of the dog speak for itself :aetsch:


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## tintlet

Nola,

Being owned by poodles makes me humor "title" efforts..lol They Always seem to find something to make the Gallery laugh 

Good luck on the CA test later this fall..we don't do any shows during the summer..just to darn Hot!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

NOLA Standards said:


> My apologies, Tintlet. Mostly I was thinking conformation. Sorry.
> 
> Annie (probably for another thread - apologize for the hijack) has run 2 legs for her CA Title. I just KNEW she would get her title last weekend and she looked at the lure, looked at me and trotted off to potty!
> 
> ACK!
> 
> It was 97 degrees out...so I'm thinking we'll wait until it's cooler and she's in a better mood???
> 
> Tabatha
> 
> 
> PS And when she gets it - I'll do a simple ad - in POODLE VARIETY and POODLE REVIEW - and let the quality of the dog speak for itself :aetsch:


How incredibly nice for you that you have the amount of money it takes to show, hire handlers on occasion AND take out ads in Poodle Review and Poodle Variety. Kudos!


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## NOLA Standards

_"How incredibly nice for you that you have the amount of money it takes to show, hire handlers on occasion AND take out ads in Poodle Review and Poodle Variety. Kudos!"_


Yes, it is! 

Then again, it's really my priorities or the order thereof.
I COULD certainly just sell puppies and skip the sacrifice and the expense... 

Momma needs a new pair of shoes!


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## Olie

Wow :der:

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If the truth isn't rearing its ugly head.............


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## NOLA Standards

Ollie,

You were NOT supposed to notice the truth.

:afraid: 


LOOK! There's ELVIS!


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## littlestitches

I do not think that the average person looking for a pet knows what to look for in a breeder. Honestly if I had not been a member of this board for the past year or so I would not have even know about the health problems that poodles can have. It was honestly a little scary and overwhelming when I first started reading about them. I now realize that although there can be no guarantee of a perfectly healthy puppy, the screenings of the parents can offer much better odds of having a happy healthy puppy. 

Having the titles that show the dogs are coming from lines that conform to the breed's standards shows that the owner/breeder is making that effort to better the breed. Having the titles and bad health screening is not a where that I would want to be looking for my puppy from. Having them both is wonderful.

I work in the theatre, I do costuming, and there are so many things that I do that the average theatre patron will never notice, and that is how it should be, I make sure that there is nothing there to distract from the show itself. Sometimes what I create has people coming up to me afterwards saying, "wow, that dress/costume was spectacular" :clap:, most times I get "I really enjoyed the costumes" and "I don't know what it was, but the costumes just worked for this play". One director gave me the best praise, "I do not know what you do to make it look so right, but your work always has it" 
I look at the titles that way, they show that someone has taken the time to find what works and adds to the beauty and flow of the dog, without taking something away from it. So that the average person out there who looks at that dog can say, "I do not know what exactly what it is about that dog, but it just seems right."

That is just MHO, I hope it makes sense to you guys..

Paula


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## 2719

Trillium said:


> That said I just thought I'd mention a something I came across this week. I got my copy of "Dogs in Canada" this week and there was quite a bit in it about Canada's top show dogs. I was really interested in it. They even had lists of the top 5 dogs of each breed in the different classes. Of course I went right over to the spoo section. These spoos according to the magazine were the top 5 in 2010. GCH Classique Scaramouche CGN, GCVh Vetset Happy Days CGN, Ch Hillwood Ale Kai Dynamo, Ch Diplomat Carrington's So Hot, and CH Marubi's Singing in Harmony. Four out of five of these dogs are black (the other was white). I looked up their pedigrees on phr and of those 5 dogs 4 of them had very frightening health issues very close to the dog. These are stunning dogs BUT the health issues in the line scare me to death. Not to mention the coi of one of these dogs was 29.7. The others were better. It is interesting to note that in such a small sample of very well known and lovely dogs that such issues exist.


Trillium...you hit on the point I was trying to make. I, too, received this issue of Dogs In Canada...and it caused me to shake my head. I thought (sarcasticly) how wonderful for these kennels to have upwards of $25,000. to champion a dog. They must really care about the breed...making it live for over a year with a handler...going across country from show to show, spending the majority of their time in a kennel....what poppycock. It is purely about EGO....they don't give a ..it! about these animals...they just know that money talks and it doesn't matter about the health issue...the titles make their kennel (and hence them) look good.

I hope that when you have the hands on experience you are striving for you remember what it was like for you as a newcomer and not get caught up in the politics and ego seekers.
ryin


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## CharismaticMillie

truelovepoodles said:


> Trillium...you hit on the point I was trying to make. I, too, received this issue of Dogs In Canada...and it caused me to shake my head. I thought (sarcasticly) how wonderful for these kennels to have upwards of $25,000. to champion a dog. They must really care about the breed...making it live for over a year with a handler...going across country from show to show, spending the majority of their time in a kennel....what poppycock. It is purely about EGO....they don't give a ..it! about these animals...they just know that money talks and it doesn't matter about the health issue...the titles make their kennel (and hence them) look good.
> 
> I hope that when you have the hands on experience you are striving for you remember what it was like for you as a newcomer and not get caught up in the politics and ego seekers.
> ryin


25,000 is an EXTREME amount of money to finish a dog....if it costs that much for a given dog I'd seriously question it's quality....


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## NOLA Standards

Top "Specials" have HUNDREDS of thousands behind them...

(and now we've entirely hijacked the thread)

I don't pretend to understand :alberteinstein: The world of Specials is a world all its own.

Many of the readers on the forum are relying on us for knowledge/understanding so for clarity - it should be noted that "Specialing" a poodle/dog is not the same as showing for an AKC CH or even an AKC GR CH.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


PS Littlesitches - beautiful compliment and wonderful explanation.


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## Olie

$25,000?

I think some people need to accept the fact that there are great show breeders out there, that health test to the nine, with minimal health issues and finish their dogs in short order because their dogs stack up to the standard. These breeders are not spending that kind of money...

Ribbons and Wins are a bonus and reward for hard work! In ANY competition. I find people that turn their nose down on others succeeding really have issues with themselves..... 


Some ego is not a bad thing


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## Keithsomething

I completely agree with Cherie and everyone really...there are breeders that make odd choices...but I don't think ANY breeder is out with an underlying motive (and that goes for ALL kinds of breeders show, byb, puppy mills, pet, etc.) especially not a motive of wanting to produce sick puppies...could they research their pedigrees better absolutely, but illness happens 

What hurts my head...is when all the blame is placed on show breeders...I completely get that a fair bit of them are just out for the reputation they gain from producing top dogs, but to place a blanket statement over them is unfair...and for someone who has never been involved with or spoken to a show breeder I just think its even MORE unfair to say that

I hope to some day to produce a healthy dog from nice lines that conforms to the breed standard as close as possible (and is the colour I want lol)...but I understand and accept the fact that illness eventually happens to everyone no matter what choices they make

____

$25,000
no dog will ever cost that amount of money to only achieve their CH or even GrCH! and if it costs that much money and the owner is willing to pay that...obviously they have more money than brains
I would only find that price in specials and as Tabatha said Specials are a WORLD of their own (though gorgeous...if ANYONE gets the chance to see London moving in the ring DO IT DO IT DO IT!!!)

But from what Terry tells me...the point of pouring all that money into specialing a dog is so that you make bank back on stud fees, but really just to be invited to Westminster (top 10) and Eukanuba (top 20) to exhibit what you have produced and rub it in everyones face lol...I think those numbers are right >.>


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## CharismaticMillie

NOLA Standards said:


> Top "Specials" have HUNDREDS of thousands behind them...
> 
> (and now we've entirely hijacked the thread)
> 
> I don't pretend to understand :alberteinstein: The world of Specials is a world all its own.
> 
> *Many of the readers on the forum are relying on us for knowledge/understanding so for clarity - it should be noted that "Specialing" a poodle/dog is not the same as showing for an AKC CH or even an AKC GR CH.*
> 
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards
> 
> 
> PS Littlesitches - beautiful compliment and wonderful explanation.


EXACTLY. I cannot imagine a GOOD quality dog OR bitch costing 25,000 dollars to _FINISH_.

Specialing? Absolutely, and far more at that.

I GUARANTEE I will be spending nowhere NEAR $25,000 to finish my dog.


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## kris6332

First, let me start by stating that I am not directing this at anyone! I was simply looking for a forum where I could meet poodle lovers and learn from their vast knowledge. We were looking for a breed that would fit our family well and be a companion dog to my 12 year old daughter that suffers with 
an anxiety disorder and major depression. I had no prior knowledge of poodles and wanted to learn all I could to make the appropriate decision. This site is near perfect in many ways, except I learned very quickly to monitor what I posted or replied for fear of being jumped on. Personally, I've only encountered wonderfully helpful and positive folks on here. But, I've sure seen the other side too while just reading other threads. While I can seriously appreciate(and enjoy watching and reading about) all the thought, costs, time, etc. that goes into breeding and showing, I have absolustely no plans to do either or to get into a debate with experts. 
I am thankful that I found poodleforum and feel I have learned so much. I am here to learn, to share, and to be among others that have a love for the breed. 
Just take it easy on one another. Or, as my mother would have said, "BE NICE"!:hug: When you are new to the breed or even dogs for that matter, some of you can be a little scary.


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## NOLA Standards

BOO! :marchmellow:

Ah - sorry - I couldn't resist. 

Kris,

When I first joined I wouldn't post, either. Some discussions get rabid, fast. But, that's a forum for ya. It's an idea to search a bit more - this is only one source of information - there are others...

AND, do remember this forum is somewhat like a family. We just disagree sometimes about specific points. It doesn't mean we don't like each other and don't come together on other issues.

Now quit hitting your brother!

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## kris6332

It's quite comical sometimes, but glad I haven't found myself on the receiving end. Some ask for it though!


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## Fluffyspoos

NOLA Standards said:


> At some point most of us have or have had a wonderful, much loved poodle from a byb or pet breeder.


Vienna is 100% byb, I didn't buy her from a breeder, I got her at about 2 years old unspayed. It was suggested by several friends to breed her. What did I do? I altered her and made her a pet.

Vienna has better pigment than many breeding dogs I've seen, and I'm sure in other hands she would have been bred. Though unless she was titled and tested, there's no way


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## Princess Dollie

kris6332 said:


> Just take it easy on one another. Or, as my mother would have said, "BE NICE"!:hug: When you are new to the breed or even dogs for that matter, some of you can be a little scary.


Kris, I had to laugh because I’ve been there.

Your scary comment made me remember how I felt when I first got involved in the Dog world in the 1980s and I was in my 20s. I once told my mentor that I thought that some Dog people were “difficult”. She spun around and lit into me saying, “You think Dog people are difficult??? Just wait until you meet HORSE PEOPLE!!!”

I will always be indebted to her. She taught me to be nice but it never hurts to develop a thick skin too.


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## kris6332

Princess Dollie, 

I had to laugh at what you said because my parents were horse people!!!! They weren't crazy horse people, but they had a couple of friends that were!! 

Kristy


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## CurlyDog

Keithsomething said:


> I think its odd whenever I see someone adamantly defending a breeder that clearly has their priorities WRONG...when they themselves have little to no experience or involvement with an actual "show" breeder
> So where would they be getting their comparison?...


I just realized I never replied to this. I'm not an expert. Most people aren't. We got our collies from a show breeder. She was awesome. She set the standard for what I expected. She cared about the dogs. She interviewed us as much as we interviewed her. She required that we contact her yearly to update her on the wellness of the dogs. So I went to a show breeder for our first poodle. All she seemed to care about was his appearance. She chewed me out in public because he was too shaggy and "looked like a labradoodle." I expected her to be happy that he was loved, well cared for, eating the best diet you can buy, clean, brushed, well trained...HAPPY!

I do understand now, a lot of the complaints about this type of breeder. I also think in a lot of ways she does things better than some "show breeders". As a pet owner, it is often difficult to see the big picture and know the best route to take.


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## mdwcarolina

I'm going to resurrect the original topic on this thread because I've had an experience with this breeder, and I was going to keep quiet sort of, but it needs sharing for those who are looking for a breeder. Folks need to know the good, the bad, the ugly.

I bought my wonderful Ziva from this breeder. I love Ziva. She is my first standard poodle. I needed to learn about the breed, and I found Family Affair is within relatively easy driving distance for me, and I started pestering them. I mean, truly, I did. I made a regular routine of going out there, like twice a week, looking at litters, meeting adults, talking to the owners. For several months. They gave me a LOT of access. This was very cool of them. Puppy mills would never do that. However, that access let me see a lot of things that, especially in hindsight, are red flags.

I can see why cdensmore and frostfirestandards report good experiences there, because there are good things to say about their operation. Wendy and her mom were both very nice to me during the time I was pup-hunting. I told them from the beginning that I was looking for a particular personality, because I wanted to do Therapy work, and so I was wanting to look very closely for as much signaling as I could get from pups as to the disposition I sought. They were very considerate about this, and gave me a lot of input about parent dogs, personalities, puppy behavior, and so on.

I was, however, concerned about the quantity as others have been. They have about 50-some spoos and about 50-some Westies on site, all breeding stock. At any given time, during the time I was visiting, there are 10 or more total newborn litters on the ground. There are so many whelpings in progress at any given time that there is no way that each labor can be monitored; this causes pups to be lost, problems to go undetected.

Also, I was impressed by the same thing CurlyDog mentions, that the mom, Cindy, has had a lot of breeder experience, has an autistic child herself, is obviously a wonderful and attentive mom and a fine human being. The fact that they contribute to OT programs with dogs for autistic kids is nothing but a huge plus.

But I know about problems going undetected because it happened to my pup's litter. The dam went into labor, her first litter, undetected, and at least half the litter died because the dam improperly handled their birth. Also, the dam was very ill at whelping, had eaten the bones of some varmint, they said, and had an intestinal blockage plus a large litter (thus the premature labor I guess). The breeder put the surviving pups with a foster dam, but several days had gone by by the time all this was seen, and the surviving litter was extremely small. The dam survived after veterinary intervention, but had a difficult recovery and could not return to her pups.

I had been looking forward to that litter specifically because I liked the looks of the sire and dam. When I learned, belatedly, that the litter had had problems, I was steered away from considering any of the survivors, which Wendy told me did not include any phantoms anyway, and had moved on to looking at other litters.

Weeks went by, me visiting twice a week. I considered some other pups, but couldn't settle on any. Finally I saw Ziva and her two surviving littermates, who by then had gotten a little size on them and seemed healthy. I fell in love with Ziva.

I had already placed a deposit, and was asked to decide on a pup and pay in full by the time any selected pup was 6 weeks old. $900 per pup. I did that. They wanted me to take Ziva home at 7 weeks, which although I thought that was early, I was happy to do because I saw that they had placed Ziva and her littermates in with an older, larger litter (no moms anymore), and the play with them was very rough.

Sure enough, between my full payment at 6 weeks and my pick-up of Ziva at 7 weeks, she had been injured. Another pup had raked (with an incisor, apparently) her eye, and cut the lid from just above the eye on the lid, all the way down the side of the eye. I found this out ON the day I had scheduled to pick her up, WHEN I arrived to pick her up. The wound had already abscessed and was infected. The problem? The breeder had not seen the injury until that day, when they were bathing and prepping Ziva for my arrival.

Folks, injuries and accidents can happen to anyone, I know this. My problem was the shock of discovering that they did not see it, which they admitted, until the wound was already infected, had begun to heal badly around the abscess, doing damage to the shape of her eyelid. I was upset. They offered me a choice of other pups. I said no, I picked her after 3 months of looking and I've already paid for her, she is mine! They offered to keep her and treat her. I said heck no (honestly I did not trust their vigilance), I will be taking her directly to my vet, thank you. This resulted in a protracted unpleasant exchange, my taking Ziva to several vets over the next months, including an opthalmic specialist vet, to see if she needed any early corrective surgery to repair the eyelid. I asked for a partial refund, due to having paid full price for what I argued was a damaged pup while she was mine yet under their care (during that week between payment and pick-up). This made Cindy (the mom) completely furious with me. Wendy too. There was a flurry of emails, during which I believe I argued calmly and politely, but boy were they upset.

I offer this level of detail not to argue that I was right and they were wrong, but to show what happens with this particular breeder when things go a little awry. To me, if they had at least taken my suggestion of a partial refund in stride, and said "well hey, how about $50 back," or something ... it would have been at least in good faith. Instead, they were furious, said what a pain in their necks I had been by coming there so often (first I had heard that, since I always scheduled and they had always been welcoming, and I am experienced with dogs, if not poodles, and mostly just socialized with pups), and that they had never had a client spend so much darned time trying to pick out a pup, and that I was over-protective and obsessive, or words to that effect.

All that ended with me saying never mind, lesson learned. And Ziva's eye has healed, but she has continuing problems with that side, excessive tearing, as the eyelid shape is abnormal, though it's nothing fatal. So I'm still glad I have her.

But now I have spent time doing more research, as I should have done when selecting a breeder in the first place. I have looked back at this breeder with an eye toward what should have clued me in the first place. It is true that their breeding stock is minimally or not at all health-tested. Hip testing, when done, is by PENN scores.

The sire and dam that I loved so much before Ziva was born turned out NOT to be the sire and dam listed when I AKC-registered her and received her pedigree. Ziva's dam, who is the same as is listed on her AKC pedigree, is NOT listed anywhere on their website, as a matter of fact. I don't know why. The dog that I was told had sired this litter is NOT the sire that appears on Ziva's AKC pedigree. Cowboy's Ruff n Ready is who I was told sired the litter, and I met him and observed eye problems, and was told that he has entropion which will be corrected at some time in the future. But a different dog, Family Affair's Power Stroke, appears as sire on Ziva's pedigree. No idea why. This dog does not appear among the "Gentlemen" on the breeder's website either.

I emailed recently and asked about this, politely. No reply, and no surprise, since they are probably still not happy with me after the whole eye damage mess.

All I can say is that there were red flags, and I failed to heed them, and lessons learned. I still love my Ziva. But quality shows when under stress, and a problem with a pup is a fair way for those things to come out. They did not do well under that test, in my humble opinion.

If I had chosen to pay $1200, I could have bought Ziva as a breeding bitch. I wonder if her pedigree would have been correctly done then? But it is weird to me that breedable bitches are determined by price paid.

Apologies for this long post and laying all this out. But if I were looking for a breeder and looking for a pup, I would want to know about something like this. It may very well be a freak incident, and not representative of other peoples' experience or this breeder's handling of things.


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## Ladywolfe

I was told that the AKC, Canine Good Citizen is an Award, NOT a Title; so it does not go after a dog's name. Believe me, I wanted to, but found it inappropriate when I realized that.


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## tintlet

if you feel that your puppies parents are not correct, then contact AKC and ask for proof of parentage. they will make the breeders do DNA on parents and the pups. Did you get a contract stating the parents, etc?


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## mdwcarolina

Tintlet: thanks for this point. Yes, I got a contract, and the contract states the parentage correctly as I was told at the time of purchase. It is the AKC registration that states otherwise. Given that, what would be the correct procedure? Does this mean that there was simply an error by the breeder in the litter registration? The breeder is the one of course that provided me with the litter registration paperwork to be forwarded to AKC, which is what I did.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

tintlet said:


> if you feel that your puppies parents are not correct, then contact AKC and ask for proof of parentage. they will make the breeders do DNA on parents and the pups. Did you get a contract stating the parents, etc?


Well, actually it's not quite that easy.. or affordable to file a questionable parentage complaint with the AKC. I was told of a breeder who is crossing other than poodles with poodles in order to obtain different colors and markings. I don't know if it was true, though the person spreading the gossip was quite confident it was. So...I checked into the AKC policy here is a link:

American Kennel Club - Customer-Driven DNA Complaint Policy


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## mdwcarolina

I'll tell you what, the older I get the more I learn that I do NOT know.

1. I was trying to look up the AKC PR number of Ziva's dam, since she does not appear on the breeder's website, only to learn that one cannot search an AKC registration number to get information? How weird is that? I'm probably the only person that didn't know this already, but jeez, what's the use of a registration number if you cannot do lookups based on it? How do people do pedigree research?

2. Lesson: try not to aggravate your breeder, even if you have good reason, if you ever ever hope to get information from them ever again. I still don't know what could have happened to cause Ziva's sire to be wrongly listed on her pedigree, and it may just have been an error, but good luck to me trying to get this sorted out without the cooperation of the breeder, yes?


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

mdwcarolina said:


> I'll tell you what, the older I get the more I learn that I do NOT know.
> 
> 1. I was trying to look up the AKC PR number of Ziva's dam, since she does not appear on the breeder's website, only to learn that one cannot search an AKC registration number to get information? How weird is that? I'm probably the only person that didn't know this already, but jeez, what's the use of a registration number if you cannot do lookups based on it? How do people do pedigree research?


You can do a lookup based on the AKC number, but it will only tell you the registered name, date of birth and color of the dog that goes with that number. Did you try PHR and PPD? If she is not listed on either of them.. well the last two numbers of her registration number are litter numbers. So you can enter her number (on the AKC lookup) and then change the last two digits, 01,02,03, etc. What you will be looking for is the name of siblings. Then you can search PPD and PHR for their names. If that doesn't turn up anything at all, you can run each of the names you find through a google search and see what that turns up. Good luck!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Here are pedigree links to the two boys you named:
PHR Pedigree Database

PHR Pedigree Database


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## mdwcarolina

Ahhh, thanks, Yaddaluv! Thanks to you saying it's possible, I finally figured out how to do the AKC lookup also. That bit about going to My AKC then adding dogs of interest... gosh, I had not caught onto that before.

Thanks for the PHR lookups! I am really quite sure that Family Affair's Ruff-n-Ready Cowboy is the correct sire -- Ziva looks almost exactly like him -- just now how to get her pedigree corrected. Never met nor saw the dog Family Affair's Power Stroke that is listed on her pedigree; and he is a black dog. Ziva is brown and apricot, like Cowboy.

FWIW, Ziva's registered name is Family Affair's Hot Buttered Rum... Now I know I can find out if anybody registered her surviving littermates, or if they were given the same parentage... I THINK I can find that out now.

And Ugghh, poor Cowboy's OFA background... not so good at all....


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Any poodles registered with Ziva's number +their own litter number, will all be listed as having the same parents. 

Ziva's number is PR15751401 (the 01 on the end is the number of pup she is in the litter, ideally done in birth order).


There is only one littermate to Ziva registered with the AKC. A black bitch. Registered name Family Affair'S (that is the correct spelling, capitalization as registered. Her AKC number is PR15751402. 

Many times pet owners are just thrilled to know that their poodle CAN be registered with AKC, they have the registration application and never submit it. It seems that so many people have different concepts of what makes a reputable breeder. We all grow as breeders and learn. Now that we have such tools as PHR and PPD, I believe it's vital that poodles are registered as it makes the tracking of health issues much easier. The more data we have regarding health issues, the more we learn about those health issues and the ways to avoid them. I encourage breeder's to register their puppies before they leave to go to their new homes. Of course, many breeder's don't want health issues associated with their name (None of us do!) so it's nicer when registrations aren't done.

That is not intended to be a critism of Family Affair, most breeder's as standard practice just send the registration applications home with the owners. I would encourage breeder's to re-think this practice based on concern for breed health. I have had many contacts through the years from different people having older poodles who had developed health issues where I was told that the owners had been given "the papers to register with, but didn't care about that, didn't think they were important" so they discarded them.. and don't have a clue who the poodles parents are. If they are registered as puppies, often times the owners know the registered names of their poodles even if they don't remember the parents names.. once registered there is usually a way to go back and find the parentage.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I do not understand why it is even an option. As a CKC member, we have no choice. We MUST register every puppy. If caught selling unregistered pups, we can lose our membership and face a hefty fine. And we are not allowed to charge extra or less based on with or without papers. They HAVE to have papers.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Just different rules for different registries.

Some kennel clubs will not allow registration of pups from closely related poodles, from poodles who have less than optimal testing results or certain colors or markings of poodles. Depends on the registry, what their rules are... and they sure don't all make sense to me!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Me either! I do not think registration should be an option! It should just be.


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## Ladywolfe

Kudos to CKC---good policy!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Well, personally, I'm a big fan of "education, not legislation". So... in the USA.. maybe the thing to do is look for breeder's who register all of their offspring?


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## tintlet

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Well, actually it's not quite that easy.. or affordable to file a questionable parentage complaint with the AKC. I was told of a breeder who is crossing other than poodles with poodles in order to obtain different colors and markings. I don't know if it was true, though the person spreading the gossip was quite confident it was. So...I checked into the AKC policy here is a link:
> 
> American Kennel Club - Customer-Driven DNA Complaint Policy


Awwww...so unless you fork over the $500, you won't know if the parentage is correct. I think it's pretty shady to give a contract listing parents, then supply AKC application with different parents. As I've always said, a pedigree is only as honest as the person filling it out


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## Quossum

$500! I'm sure the price is high to keep frivolous accusations down, but really...there should be some kind of a break for situations where a breeder has sold a puppy with questionable / falsified parentage. 

I wouldn't want the breeders to *have* to register the puppies here, because I like naming my own puppy. I know to many people the registered name doesn't matter, and yes, you can call the puppy anything you want, but I'll be looking at that name on entry forms for years and years, and I want a name I like or that has significance to me.

--Q


----------



## Yaddaluvpoodles

******


Quossum said:


> $500! I'm sure the price is high to keep frivolous accusations down, but really...there should be some kind of a break for situations where a breeder has sold a puppy with questionable / falsified parentage.
> 
> If parentage is proven by DNA testing to be other than what is listed on the AKC paperwork, the $500 is given back to the person filing the complaint.
> 
> I wouldn't want the breeders to *have* to register the puppies here, because I like naming my own puppy. I know to many people the registered name doesn't matter, and yes, you can call the puppy anything you want, but I'll be looking at that name on entry forms for years and years, and I want a name I like or that has significance to me.
> 
> --Q


----------



## Quossum

Ah, that is a break...and still would discourage frivolous accusations. Thanks for that info!

--Q


----------



## StandardAdoration

*Thor*

I actually got my new standard puppy from Family Affairs and though I was a bit wary of the bible quotes, they seem to be fantastic breeders in my opinion. Though pricey, my baby Thor is growing to be absolutely gorgeous physically (tight feet, narrow defined nose, great stance, ect.). He is also intensely intelligent (he was almost naturally potty trained when we got him). He is also learning at a very fast pace (I only had to go through "jump through the hoop" with him once before he had it down), along with picking up on the training quickly he also seems to figure things out easily, such as at 10weeks old learning to unzip my suitcase without being taught. Along with beauty and intelligence he is also very loving, loyal, and in no way aggressive. I know it sounds like I am simply bragging on my puppy, but I have to say with all the standards I have had growing up he seems to be learning the quickest. Of course I am what you would call a "proud-mother", but looking at it objectively they seem to be pretty sound breeders to me. They have multiple dams and sires (along with their pedigrees) and multiple litters. They also allow you to have choice of the litter with your deposite, so you aren't just assigned a puppy, you have a chance to interact with them and their parents (which are on site). I just wanted to state these things because I couldn't be happier with the puppy we got from them. Just because someone may be overly religious in your eyes it that doesn't make them any less proficient or good at their job. I just had to give them props for the most amazing standard puppy I have ever had!


----------



## Keithsomething

o.o

you have a lovely puppy StandardAdoration, did you get copies of all the health testing on your puppies parents?


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## StandardAdoration

No, We didn't receive a copy of the parents health testing, but we didn't ask for it. They come with a guarantee and we met both parents before choosing this specific puppy. So far he is 100% healthy, and the puppy came with all his shots and had genetic testing for the problems that are common in standards. The parents are OFA certified but you can't get puppies certified at that age, so that is the only thing he was missing. They were very kind people and guaranteed their pups. She went into extensive details about the testing and health of the puppies and we didn't feel the need to ask for health papers on the parents (esp after driving for so long and spending over an hour picking out the perfect pup for us lol).


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## liljaker

Yes, I always wondered what it is about some breeders/websites that get so into religion. I don't know, just me, but it seems that belongs at home. But, I see it quite often. Not offensive, just curious I guess.


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## liljaker

He is gorgeous!!!


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## StandardAdoration

*Thanks!*

Yes, I agree with the religion statement.. it did put me off a bit at first, since I am not very religious myself. My mother (who was previously a breeder) actually chose the site and breeders, while I went looking elsewhere because of the quotations and high prices of the puppies. My mother ended up proving me completely wrong with Thor. I just had to give them credit for my baby and a seemingly well run business. I don't want other people to make the same initial mistake I did. And thank you, I can't wait to see how he grows up :act-up:


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## PoohFan

Who are Thor's parents? I am wondering if I have his brother.



StandardAdoration said:


> I actually got my new standard puppy from Family Affairs and though I was a bit wary of the bible quotes, they seem to be fantastic breeders in my opinion. Though pricey, my baby Thor is growing to be absolutely gorgeous physically (tight feet, narrow defined nose, great stance, ect.). He is also intensely intelligent (he was almost naturally potty trained when we got him). He is also learning at a very fast pace (I only had to go through "jump through the hoop" with him once before he had it down), along with picking up on the training quickly he also seems to figure things out easily, such as at 10weeks old learning to unzip my suitcase without being taught. Along with beauty and intelligence he is also very loving, loyal, and in no way aggressive. I know it sounds like I am simply bragging on my puppy, but I have to say with all the standards I have had growing up he seems to be learning the quickest. Of course I am what you would call a "proud-mother", but looking at it objectively they seem to be pretty sound breeders to me. They have multiple dams and sires (along with their pedigrees) and multiple litters. They also allow you to have choice of the litter with your deposite, so you aren't just assigned a puppy, you have a chance to interact with them and their parents (which are on site). I just wanted to state these things because I couldn't be happier with the puppy we got from them. Just because someone may be overly religious in your eyes it that doesn't make them any less proficient or good at their job. I just had to give them props for the most amazing standard puppy I have ever had!


----------



## PoohFan

Btw, as a Christian, I found Family Affair Standards' website to be quite lovely. I guess I don't understand why people are put off when others express their faith. That aside, they produce lovely standards. My boy is very sweet and intelligent. He had no fleas or worms and the vet said that he's a "very healthy boy."


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## petitpie

Well, maybe I will post this even though it might not apply to the topic. I read about a rescue out of Nashville called Proverbs 12:10. I think it sounded like a really good name for a rescue. There are various parts of the country that use biblical references in every day dealings as a testament to faith.


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## StandardAdoration

Thor's dad is Diesel and his mom is Carmel Ann. They do look a lot alike, though it looks like your boy might be a bit older than Thor. Who are Aspen's parents? It would be fun if they are related. 
Religion can just be tricky at times, my father is very religious (Catholic) and my mothers side of the family is also very religious though different (Orthodox Jewish). So I have gotten used to religion in my family, but some people can be put off by it. I think they don't believe that the individuals are expressing their faith I think they see it as people trying to use g-d as a way to get customers to buy their products (when used on webpages designed for selling puppies, ect). I don't believe that, but I do see both sides. Though, I couldn't see someone getting upset about the name of a rescue group being religious. 
I hope they are related Poohfan, if you are located close by it would be fun to have puppy play dates.


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## PoohFan

Oh my! LOL Aspen's parents are Carmel Ann and Diesel. Looks like we have brothers! 





StandardAdoration said:


> Thor's dad is Diesel and his mom is Carmel Ann. They do look a lot alike, though it looks like your boy might be a bit older than Thor. Who are Aspen's parents? It would be fun if they are related.
> Religion can just be tricky at times, my father is very religious (Catholic) and my mothers side of the family is also very religious though different (Orthodox Jewish). So I have gotten used to religion in my family, but some people can be put off by it. I think they don't believe that the individuals are expressing their faith I think they see it as people trying to use g-d as a way to get customers to buy their products (when used on webpages designed for selling puppies, ect). I don't believe that, but I do see both sides. Though, I couldn't see someone getting upset about the name of a rescue group being religious.
> I hope they are related Poohfan, if you are located close by it would be fun to have puppy play dates.


----------



## Sookster

My problem with people having religion all over their websites is that its really distracting from the actual point of the website, which is to tell you about their dogs. Religion has nothing whatsoever to do with picking out a puppy. 

I also feel that a lot of unethical breeders (absolutely NOT saying this breeder is unethical, I haven't even looked at the website) hide behind religious claims and use that to try to sell their puppies. 

"Oh these people are devout Christians, so they must take good care of their dogs and puppies!" 

Not necessarily. Now, if you are religious and name your kennel, or even have your dog's registered names reflect those beliefs, that's different. I think that is simply putting your own personal mark on your lines. But I don't think that you need crosses and sparkly flying angels all over your website. Just my opinion, of course, but that's how I feel about it.

ETA: WOAH they have a lot of puppies available. Several different litters, it appears, which I am personally not comfortable with. And I am more concerned about the fact that if you have $1600 to spare, you can get a puppy with unlimited registration. Again, not saying they are bad breeders. I think their dogs and puppies (especially Aspen and Thor!) are lovely. I'm not entirely sure I would be comfortable with their breeding practices, however, or be able to recommend them to others looking to purchase a dog.


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## StandardAdoration

I can see your point on the amount of puppies, but they do have a large amount of land and outdoor housing for the pups that was much cooler (temp-wise) than outside. They certainly aren't the type of breeders to dote on their puppies and teach them or watch them all the time, but it didn't seem that the puppies were mistreated in any way (as in puppy-mills). They were more just taught more by the other dogs, more of a natural "let-them-roam-around" feel.


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## tintlet

When I see a website with biblical verses... first thing that comes to my mind is 'What are they hiding".


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## peppersb

petitpie said:


> Well, maybe I will post this even though it might not apply to the topic. I read about a rescue out of Nashville called Proverbs 12:10. I think it sounded like a really good name for a rescue. There are various parts of the country that use biblical references in every day dealings as a testament to faith.


For those who don't have a Bible handy, Proverbs 12:10 says: "The righteous care for the needs of their animals, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel."

For the context (basically a bunch of proverbs about righteousness vs wickedness), go to biblegateway.com and look up Proverbs 12.

A friend of mine who is both a poodle breeder and a devout Christian once told me that she knew of "Christian" breeders (those who make their faith very clear on their web site and elsewhere) who were some of the worst in terms of taking good care of their animals. Of course that is not true of all breeders who make their faith known. While explicit religious statements do not make me turn away from a breeder, the things I am looking for have more to do with their breeding practices than their religion. I would never buy from someone who had too many dogs or who was not spending a lot of time with each litter socializing the puppies. I would only want to support a breeder who "cares for the needs of their animals." And IMO caring for the needs of a poodle means keeping them in your home with you and your family, not in a kennel. So I would only buy from a small scale home-based breeder.


----------



## PaddleAddict

StandardAdoration said:


> They certainly aren't the type of breeders to dote on their puppies and teach them or watch them all the time, but it didn't seem that the puppies were mistreated in any way (as in puppy-mills). They were more just taught more by the other dogs, more of a natural "let-them-roam-around" feel.


Hmmm.... that would be a huge red flag to me. Puppies don't have to be abused or mistreated to have issues due to poor early socialization. 

Just because a puppy doesn't come from a puppy mill does not mean it's coming from a good breeder. There are many shades of gray in the world of dog breeding.

The reason most reputable breeders have few litters throughout the year is so they can give all the puppies as much individual attention, socialization, grooming, training, etc., as possible.


----------



## StandardAdoration

I completely understand where you are coming from. I am not sure exactly how well socialized the puppies are early on (with people), since I was only able to make one trip there, but I can say the puppies didn't seem to have any issues with people when we met them. They were friendly and loving. Thor is actually very much a people lover and will go up to anyone to say hi, but I also started him out with meeting new people early and socializing him when we got him. He has done well with seniors and babies so far. The only issue we had early on was getting him to understand the difference between playing and being loved on, since he would try to chew our fingers and toes or play when we were petting him. But in my past experience with pups they always have a teething stage when they wanna chew on you or play with you that way. It only took a couple weeks to break him of that habit. 
The strange thing is he did come pretty much potty trained. I have never had a puppy not have to be taught not to go inside and to tell us he needed to go out, idk whether that is cause they had their own temp controlled puppy house or what.. but that was the one thing I found really amazing. Potty trained at 7 wks old without training is unheard of in my past with puppies.
When my mother bred standards she always kept them inside and trained them early, along with starting them with grooming very young, but we haven't had any issues so far. Maybe we are just lucky.. wait no, we are definitely lucky he is so wonderfully smart.


----------



## peppersb

StandardAdoration said:


> ... he would try to chew our fingers and toes or play when we were petting him. ... Potty trained at 7 wks old without training is unheard of in my past with puppies. ...


The above two statements jumped out at me. Did you by any chance get your pup when he was only 7 weeks old? Most breeders keep them until they are 8 weeks. One fabulous breeder that I know keeps them until they are 9 weeks. She told me that when the pups are 6 to 8 (or 9) weeks old, they learn bite inhibition from their moms and siblings. They have sharp little teeth at that stage and there's nothing like a momma dog to correct a puppy in language that he/she fully understands! 

It certainly sounds like you have a great pup and like you have taken whatever steps are necessary to teach him not to bite. But I wonder if the initial biting would have been less of a problem if he had spent another week or two with his mom? Not a big deal--It certainly sounds like your pup has found himself a very happy home!


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## Arcticfox

I got my spoo puppy at 13 weeks, I can count on one hand the number of times she's nipped me in play, and it never happened again after the second day she came home. She still catches my fignertips once in a while when taking treats but they are so gentle I barely feel it. I think the extra few weeks spent with her littermates definitely helped in that regard. I here a lot about problems with mouthing and playbiting on a different forum (/r/dogs and /r/dogtraining on reddit), and it's usually with puppies that went home around 6 weeks.


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## PoohFan

I have Thor's brother and echo what StandardAdoration said. Happy, healthy, smart and social pups... 



StandardAdoration said:


> I completely understand where you are coming from. I am not sure exactly how well socialized the puppies are early on (with people), since I was only able to make one trip there, but I can say the puppies didn't seem to have any issues with people when we met them. They were friendly and loving. Thor is actually very much a people lover and will go up to anyone to say hi, but I also started him out with meeting new people early and socializing him when we got him. He has done well with seniors and babies so far. The only issue we had early on was getting him to understand the difference between playing and being loved on, since he would try to chew our fingers and toes or play when we were petting him. But in my past experience with pups they always have a teething stage when they wanna chew on you or play with you that way. It only took a couple weeks to break him of that habit.
> The strange thing is he did come pretty much potty trained. I have never had a puppy not have to be taught not to go inside and to tell us he needed to go out, idk whether that is cause they had their own temp controlled puppy house or what.. but that was the one thing I found really amazing. Potty trained at 7 wks old without training is unheard of in my past with puppies.
> When my mother bred standards she always kept them inside and trained them early, along with starting them with grooming very young, but we haven't had any issues so far. Maybe we are just lucky.. wait no, we are definitely lucky he is so wonderfully smart.


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## PoohFan

I picked up Aspen several weeks after Thor went home. He does the same thing when he is all out playing. Otherwise, he's chilled. 

This isn't my first time around with a puppy although Aspen is my first poodle. I have to say that he is the best puppy I've had. 



peppersb said:


> The above two statements jumped out at me. Did you by any chance get your pup when he was only 7 weeks old? Most breeders keep them until they are 8 weeks. One fabulous breeder that I know keeps them until they are 9 weeks. She told me that when the pups are 6 to 8 (or 9) weeks old, they learn bite inhibition from their moms and siblings. They have sharp little teeth at that stage and there's nothing like a momma dog to correct a puppy in language that he/she fully understands!
> 
> It certainly sounds like you have a great pup and like you have taken whatever steps are necessary to teach him not to bite. But I wonder if the initial biting would have been less of a problem if he had spent another week or two with his mom? Not a big deal--It certainly sounds like your pup has found himself a very happy home!


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## StandardAdoration

I would like to clarify.. the biting was not rough or hard, or even enough to really hurt.. it was just more annoying than anything else. I did get him at 7weeks but it was late in that 7th week lol and I talked her into it. It was simply because the weekend was the only time my mother could go with me to help me pick him out. She is much more experienced with what to look for since she used to breed (I grew up with poodles but was not as experienced with choosing the standards), it was also due to me having time off and wanting to use that time to really bond with my baby. 
He still will occasionally try to suckle my finger like nursing (its actually very cute), but he has never bitten to the point of hurting or being aggressive. I have raised multiple puppies and I have had to deal with much worse biting in the past, he just liked having something in his mouth for teething. I must say, I don't mind acting as the "mother-bitch" at all since I had the time to spend with him 24hrs a day for 2 weeks after getting him. I truly enjoyed having that time with him, both one on one and introducing him to family members (human and animals) slowly to socialize him. I also think he is much closer to me for it, I preferred it that way and he seems pretty happy with me so far


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## faerie

i've checked out that breeder's site before and i was way put off by the religious stuff everywhere, but i'm a godless heathen. living in the bible belt i just try to tune it out as long as they aren't trying to convert me and my kids. 

i was more put off by the number of dogs they are breeding and the huge amount of puppies they have for sale and the ease of purchasing a dog with full registration.

i'm glad you got good puppers and wish you many many healthy happy years.


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## ksammon

faerie said:


> i've checked out that breeder's site before and i was way put off by the religious stuff everywhere, but i'm a godless heathen. living in the bible belt i just try to tune it out as long as they aren't trying to convert me and my kids.
> 
> i was more put off by the number of dogs they are breeding and the huge amount of puppies they have for sale and the ease of purchasing a dog with full registration.
> 
> i'm glad you got good puppers and wish you many many healthy happy years.


if i can get my b/f to stop thinking about the one we saw yesterday then ..we are going there on Saturday to check out the place ..i 2 kinda freaked when i saw all the dogs but from my understanding they have a farm..i will let everyone what happens


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## PaddleAddict

ksammon said:


> if i can get my b/f to stop thinking about the one we saw yesterday then ..we are going there on Saturday to check out the place ..i 2 kinda freaked when i saw all the dogs but from my understanding they have a farm..i will let everyone what happens


You said in another post that you would rather not buy from a breeder who "does this all the time to make money." If that is the case, I would recomnend you look for a different breeder other than this one. It appears this breeder's main purpose is money making.

There lots of responsible, reputable breeders who are breeding to better the breed and safeguard it for future generations, not to make money. If you slow down and do some research and ask here on this forum, many people are more than willing to point you in the right direction.

It sounds like you have become frustrated with your puppy search and reached that point of "I must have a puppy NOW." That is not the best state of mind to be choosing a puppy in my opinion.


----------



## ksammon

PaddleAddict said:


> You said in another post that you would rather not buy from a breeder who "does this all the time to make money." If that is the case, I would recomnend you look for a different breeder other than this one. It appears this breeder's main purpose is money making.
> 
> There lots of responsible, reputable breeders who are breeding to better the breed and safeguard it for future generations, not to make money. If you slow down and do some research and ask here on this forum, many people are more than willing to point you in the right direction.
> 
> It sounds like you have become frustrated with your puppy search and reached that point of "I must have a puppy NOW." That is not the best state of mind to be choosing a puppy in my opinion.


thanks for your advice but this is very close to our house and we want to make the trip


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## PaddleAddict

ksammon said:


> thanks for your advice but this is very close to our house and we want to make the trip


To each his own!


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## starpoodle

24 puppies for sale??? Yikes! That's some massive breeding going on.

I hope anybody considering a puppy from this breeder first reads MDWCarolina's post. Multiple overlapping whelpings, without sufficient human hands to assist, is a huge cause for concern. Ditto for the lack of socialization. There are so many spoo breeders who do things the right way - those are the breeders I want to support.


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## kukukachoo

We almost went there last month to meet both Cowboy and Diesel because they were available for adoption. My daughter got sick and we had to cancel. Before we could reschedule, we were fortunate enough to have a wonderful 5-year old Standard GIVEN to us!

We are so in love with this guy that we may consider a second one next year and I'll keep all the info in mind that I have gathered from this thread when we reach the point of seriously searching. On that note, I'm basically in the middle of North Carolina, would anyone like to recommend breeders near me?


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## 3dogs

Tintlet Standard Poodles is in Western North Carolina. Not close but not far, at least closer than for me to drive to them.


----------



## PoohFan

As I sit here on my deck on this beautiful Saturday morning with my sweet fellow, I have to say that it almost seems (feels) as if some of you consider the babies from FAS sub-standard. I certainly hope that is not the case. 

I recall the classic car hobby. People had a tendency to form a hierarchy of self-importance based upon:

--numbers matching
--car year
--mileage
--condition
--rarity

The funny part is that I owned a classic Corvette that was gorgeous but wouldn't have been "special" in the States because all the above was not in perfect order, yet the car made the concourse (right beside a Pantera) at a lovely stately home in England. 

So beware snobbery... The puppies that come from FAS are just as loved as anyone else's standard. In fact, more than a few of us had a wonderful experience with them. Breeding practice concern is fine except when it flies in the face of people's experience.


----------



## PaddleAddict

PoohFan said:


> As I sit here on my deck on this beautiful Saturday morning with my sweet fellow, I have to say that it almost seems (feels) as if some of you consider the babies from FAS sub-standard. I certainly hope that is not the case.
> 
> I recall the classic car hobby. People had a tendency to form a hierarchy of self-importance based upon:
> 
> --numbers matching
> --car year
> --mileage
> --condition
> --rarity
> 
> The funny part is that I owned a classic Corvette that was gorgeous but wouldn't have been "special" in the States because all the above was not in perfect order, yet the car made the concourse (right beside a Pantera) at a lovely stately home in England.
> 
> So beware snobbery... The puppies that come from FAS are just as loved as anyone else's standard. In fact, more than a few of us had a wonderful experience with them. Breeding practice concern is fine except when it flies in the face of people's experience.


Puppies are not cars! They are living beings. You can't compare the hobby of classic cars to breeding dogs. You obviously don't know much about breeding dogs based on your comments. The concerns about this breeder raised in this thread are valid. It does not dimminish the emotional value of your dog. All dogs are wonderful.

Edited to add: It has nothing to do with snobbery as you suggest. In dog breeding there are great breeding practices, horrid breeding practices, and every shade of gray in between.


----------



## PoohFan

PaddleAddict said:


> Puppies are not cars! They are living beings. You can't compare the hobby of classic cars to breeding dogs. You obviously don't know much about breeding dogs based on your comments. The concerns about this breeder raised in this thread are valid. It does not dimminish the emotional value of your dog. All dogs are wonderful.


Really..? Gee whiz... If you will read closely, you will see that I am NOT comparing dogs to cars. I AM comparing the snobbery that I see in both areas.

After rescuing cats and dogs for years because I love them, usually more than most human beings, I get lectured to? Do you really think I would have purchased a poodle from a breeder that I had not checked out thoroughly? You are insulting my intelligence because of an opinion unfounded in fact. 

I watched FAS and talked with them and others who have adopted puppies from them for several years before making my decision. Like I said, concern about a breeder is one thing, but much of the accusations against FAS seem petty (Christian verses on the site, too many puppies...) Seriously? They live on a farm, they raise a number of animals, and they have a lot of experience and an extended family to assist. Perhaps some of us just understand farm life a lot better. 

If you guys are so concerned about them and not prone to listen to those of us who have experience with them, why not try connecting with the vets that they use rather than trying to ruin them on a forum? The latter is the coward's way and seem a bit libelous to me.


----------



## PaddleAddict

They have a lot of puppies. That is not libel it's clearly on their website. Anyone is free to buy a puppy from them, but we are all free to have opinions too (you included!). 

Most of us are not dog breeders, we are pet owners sharing our opinions and experiences.


----------



## PoohFan

PaddleAddict said:


> They have a lot of puppies. That is not libel it's clearly on their website. Anyone is free to buy a puppy from them, but we are all free to have opinions too (you included!).
> 
> Most of us are not dog breeders, we are pet owners sharing our opinions and experiences.


And the insinuation is that they don't care for the breed, they are only after money, and that they are not much more than a puppy mill... That sure is a huge conclusion from nothing more than a website. You have not visited them nor adopted a puppy from them as I have. Yet, you are on here pretty much warning people off and you are where - California? Are the adopter's experiences for naught around here? 

There are plenty of pics on my album of my little fellow. Do you guys want a vet report? I can tell you that he had no fleas...no worms...had his shots...and I was told that he was a healthy boy. He's smart as a whip and has a lovely personality. That doesn't sound like a puppy mill to me.


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## NOLA Standards

Do they re-home for life?

And track their pups by permanent id?

Breeders are villified, as they should be, when they mill/churn out pups and contribute to the problem of overpopulation.

So, for clarification, you will hear breeders who mass out multiple litters of pups throughout the year referred to as "millers". Not in the sense that the dogs live in cages and are not cared for, but rather referring to "production".

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


----------



## kukukachoo

NOLA Standards said:


> Do they re-home for life?
> 
> And track their pups by permanent id?
> 
> Breeders are villified, as they should be, when they mill/churn out pups and contribute to the problem of overpopulation.
> 
> So, for clarification, you will hear breeders who mass out multiple litters of pups throughout the year referred to as "millers". Not in the sense that the dogs live in cages and are not cared for, but rather referring to "production".
> 
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards


please educate the newbie  what is re-homing for life and what is tracking with permanent id?


----------



## Carley's Mom

I counted 34 breeding dogs! You will NEVER convince me that all those dogs are getting everything they need. No way would I buy from them.

P.S. Re-homing for life means that if you can on longer care for your dog they will take it back and find it a good home.


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## NOLA Standards

Re-homing for life is written into my health contract - puppy buyers initial it and understand that on any occurance where the new home can not keep the pup, I want it back.

That requirement is "sweetened" or re-inforced by the offer of monies back once pup is re-homed.

Permanent ID is micro chip or tattoo for id and tracking. Pre-registering them costs the breeder a small amount, but places them on the call list should the pup get lost.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

It's super easy to sit back and be an armchair critic, without knowing a thing about what is really going on. 

There are people who I think are very entitled to list "Armchair Breeder Critic" as a hobby.

Different breeders have different breeding priorities and unfortunately, there is little tolerance for any who don't share the same priority. Not only is there little tolerance, there is no respect. IF there is respect, people can learn from each other, but when there is disrespect, breeder's bite their noses off to spite their faces.

I made a comment on a group once.. a long time ago, that every breeder has something GOOD that they can teach to another breeder, even backyard breeders and puppy millers (there is no intent to imply anyone in this thread is either.. this is just what I said years ago). I was immediately taken to task by a number of breeders.. "What can we learn from THEM? They have nothing to teach us! I wouldn't want to learn anything from someone like that!" And.. they won't. The doors to communication have been slammed. Those doors.. are two way, information and learning can go both ways... so long as the doors aren't slammed.

It's my understanding that Family Affair consists of several families who work together in a common endeavor. I haven't looked at their website recently, so I don't know what's posted there, but let's take a serious look at 24 pups.

How many litters does it take to produce 24 pups? (again, I haven't looked at their site, I don't know if this was multiple litters, multiple parents, or what). These are standards. It could be as few as 2 litters. I am personally acquainted with someone who had 16 pups in one litter. I am also personally acquainted with someone who breeds smaller poodles who is frequently presented on this group as being an upstanding breeder, yet it's not uncommon for her to have 3 litters at one time. What's the difference? Social acceptance? Who you know? I'm starting to wonder.....

As for having 34 breeding dogs, I have to ask, how often are these dogs breed, are they bred back to back every heat cycle? Do they have traits to contribute to the breed? Are they good examples of the breed? What are their temperaments like? Are some of these dogs "hopefuls", who have never been bred? 

I have a personal issue with people who criticize others websites. A couple of years ago, I was going through some really tough times. I live alone, by choice, I rarely have visitors (major social anxiety) and.. the holiday season was here. I decided that rather than decorating for the holidays (something I love to do) where only I would enjoy it, I would "decorate" my website. I spent hours trimming it with.. you got it.. flashing lights, falling snow.. etc. It was my way of sharing a little bit of holiday spirit and well wishing all who visited my website. What happened next was... SCROOGE! Big time, ugly SCROOGE! I read here people's opinions about flashy websites. Folks, there was nothing behind mine. It wasn't done to attract attention, it was done as.. a way of sharing.. a gift, if you want to look at it that way. I was having some other issues at the time and this little bit of cruelty (yes, it was), was very hurtful to me personally. A few weeks after that, I was on the receiving end of a direct attack by armchair critics. People who had not met me, who had never had contact with one of my dogs. I will never forget how that felt.

So here's the deal... I read these threads all of the time. I read the good/the bad/the ugly. I personally know a whole lot of breeders, I have personally visited a whole lot of breeders. There is someone whom I believe to be a miller, multiple dogs, multiple litters, many times breeding dogs under the age of two,enthusiastically recommended on this forum. And what I have decided is this.. just as breeders have their priorities, so do owners. Each owner needs to choose their breeder and establish a relationship with that breeder. Every single breeder out there has pros and cons. it's important to find a breeder that one works well with. It is equally important not to choose a breeder just because so and so says that breeder is terrific (if you can't stand them.. it's not a good relationship!)

So, my next questions for thought are these: What happens if I have a falling out with the breeder? How important is it to have a good relationship with the breeder?
My answers are, the internet and forums like this are now at everyone's finger tips, so answers and help are quickly available. I have personally assisted many puppy owners through the years when they have had breeder issues.. although I'm not doing it as much now and am slowing down a lot. As for having a good relationship with the breeder? For someone just starting out, I consider it essential. Among other things, it's important to have a breeder who is honest and upfront about health issues. It's also important to have a breeder who knows about pup growth and development and how to train and deal with any potential issues that may crop up. I consider breeder's to be kinda like moms, jacks of all trades, who must know not only about breeding and puppy rearing, but about canine behavior, genetics, training.. etc. However, if someone is already an experienced poodle person, it is not as critical to have a close relationship with the breeder.

Just some thoughts there... Maybe I will go visit the Family Affair site and see how much mud, if any, I just got on my face!

Darla


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## PoohFan

Excellent post Yaddaluvpoodles! 

I hate to see people unfairly maligned online (without reason or knowledge, just suspicion), especially if it could result in damage.


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## PoohFan

NOLA Standards said:


> Do they re-home for life?
> 
> And track their pups by permanent id?
> 
> Breeders are villified, as they should be, when they mill/churn out pups and contribute to the problem of overpopulation.
> 
> So, for clarification, you will hear breeders who mass out multiple litters of pups throughout the year referred to as "millers". Not in the sense that the dogs live in cages and are not cared for, but rather referring to "production".
> 
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards


From the contract...

The BUYER hereby agrees that if at any time the BUYER can not take proper care of the PUPPY, the BUYER must contact the BREEDER and the BREEDER will have the first choice to either: 
a. Take the PUPPY back. 
b. Assist the BUYER in finding a suitable home.


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## Carley's Mom

I am not a breeder. I am a dog lover. I don't think any one family, farm or not, can give 34 adult dogs all the care, love and attention they need. I might be wrong. I have never been to the "farm". But I know how much time my one Standard requires in exercise , grooming,training and hugs and kisses... I just don't think it could be done to my standards, therefore, I would not support them. We all get to pick our own breeder. I am sure they have some great puppies. I just wonder about the breeding dog's quality of life. That is very important to me.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

@Carley's mom,

I understand that, but rather than taking a look at numbers and speculating.. I would ASK them.

Having only parented one child, I can't imagine how anyone keeps up with two or three children, let alone more than that. But rather than speculating that children from multi-kid homes don't get what they need, it would probably be in my best interests to ASK how it works. I have a friend who just happens to be one of 27 children in a family, none adopted. I know several of the children as well as the mom. They aren't extremists of any sort, they just love children (which is a great thing.. because grandkids have been born, and now are working on great grandkids!) and in my many years of knowing them, it seems like everything goes along a lot more smoothly than in a lot of smaller families I know of.

While 34 (my understanding is that these dogs live with several families?) seems like a lot, it may be that things work out well for all involved.

And.. it's perfectly okay to be uncomfortable with that, and these people not be a breeder of your choice. 

My points here are: Not every breeder is ideal for every owner. Speculation can be misleading.

Darla


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## PoohFan

Carley's Mom said:


> I am not a breeder. I am a dog lover. *I don't think* any one family, farm or not, can give 34 adult dogs all the care, love and attention they need. I might be wrong. I have never been to the "farm". But I know how much time my one Standard requires in exercise , grooming,training and hugs and kisses... *I just don't think* it could be done to my standards, therefore, I would not support them. We all get to pick our own breeder. I am sure they have some great puppies. I just wonder about the breeding dog's quality of life. That is very important to me.


_"I don't think..." _ That is the problem. The aspersions flung around here are just that - opinion. 

They actually take the dogs walking and swimming. That's what you can do when you live on a farm.


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## Carley's Mom

I live on a farm! We have 4 homes on this one family farm, my parent's home, mine family home, my daughter's family home and a SIL's family home. I have lived here my whole life. We have miles of wooded trails and pasture fields right in our backyard. That being said, I still have not changed my opinion. 

A good friend of mine came from a family with 13 kids. You know how they did it... the older kids helped care for the younger. They were happy and had a great family life. DOGS CAN'T DO THAT.

Vicky


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## PoohFan

Carley's Mom said:


> A good friend of mine came from a family with 13 kids. You know how they did it... the older kids helped care for the younger. They were happy and had a great family life. DOGS CAN'T DO THAT.
> 
> Vicky


Yes, but humans can.


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## DivinityPoodles

Actually dogs can too...

I have almost always had multiple dogs and never from the same litter and can say with certainty that the older dogs 'help out' with the puppies. Just like my older children 'helped out' with my younger children.

They play together, tiring each other out, they keep each other company (I don't know about most of you but I can't spend 24 hours a day with my dogs, as much as I'd like too lol), they teach each other things (sometimes that's not so good). Generally I would say multiple dogs are easier than singles, just as having multiple children makes it easier at times. 

Most of what I've read about the concerns of having so many dogs and the lack of information on the site about testing and titles, I agree with. I would want to get more information.

Being a Christian, I obviously don't have an issue with the quotes. I do, however, find it odd that some can't seem to look beyond the choice to express their faith. And I wonder how much would be said if they were expressing a different faith???


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## Carley's Mom

I totally agree that older dogs can teach the younger ones. Part of the reason I am getting another spoo this fall. I like the first dog to teach the 2nd dog the ropes... But they do need people for grooming ect. I think this farm has too many dogs! That is MHO. We all have our line that we will not cross when looking for a breeder. The dog I am getting has it's tail docked too short... that would be a deal breaker for some. My breeder did not do the tail, hates the tail, but it does not make it any less of a dog. I am not going to debate this subject any longer, to each his own. AS it should be. I wish you many happy years with your dog, I am sure he is wonderful.


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## faerie

kukukachoo said:


> We almost went there last month to meet both Cowboy and Diesel because they were available for adoption. My daughter got sick and we had to cancel. Before we could reschedule, we were fortunate enough to have a wonderful 5-year old Standard GIVEN to us!
> 
> We are so in love with this guy that we may consider a second one next year and I'll keep all the info in mind that I have gathered from this thread when we reach the point of seriously searching. On that note, I'm basically in the middle of North Carolina, would anyone like to recommend breeders near me?


i have a tintlet poodle and will get another. great breeder, persons and great dogs


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

I am stunned that anyone would think that dogs other than the dam, can't/aren't able to help rear pups and can't be a help to the owner/breeder at the same time. Simply beyond my comprehension. Dogs are capable of far more than we give them credit for.....


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## peppersb

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> I am stunned that anyone would think that dogs other than the dam, can't/aren't able to help rear pups and can't be a help to the owner/breeder at the same time. Simply beyond my comprehension. Dogs are capable of far more than we give them credit for.....


I don't think that anyone was saying that dogs don't learn from other dogs or that dogs don't play with/entertain other dogs. But I do think that there is a huge problem with breeders who are breeding for the pet market to make money. If a breeder wants to make as much money as possible, they will try to produce as many puppies as they can sell. That means lots of bitches, often with each one bred too frequently and too many times, and often with marginal animal welfare. 

I know that a lot of people on this forum think that how the parent dogs are treated matters a lot, and so do I. It matters because happy parent dogs produce well-socialized pups. But it also matters because making sure that the parent dogs are loved and cared for is just the right thing to do. The idea of a breeder vetting a potential puppy buyer (or pretending to) while keeping their own dogs in kennels and using them as money making puppy machines is simply nauseating. I am NOT saying that that's what this breeder is doing. I have no idea what they are doing. But 34 dogs is a big red flag--definitely something that should be investigated (as others have suggested).

I urge any puppy buyers who are interested in this breeder or in any breeder to find out as much as you can about the lives of the puppies parents. Are they loved and cherished (as a poodle should be!) or are they just used as puppy producers? Sometimes it is hard to tell, but I'd like to support the kind of breeder who loves and cherishes her dogs. 

Maybe this breeder is OK. I don't know anything about them other than what I have read here. 

Finally, I don't think that most people care one way or another what this breeder's faith is. I doubt that that issue is really driving people's opinions, but maybe I'm wrong.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Well said!

re: "too many" dogs

The flip side of the coin is too few dogs! Really. 

In both cases it comes down to breeder ethics.

With most of the dog laws we have in place, people are substantially limited as to the number of animals they can have. Usually dogs are limited to just two or three at the most. In these situations, the dogs who are being bred are usually much loved household companions, who sleep on their owners beds. The problem with this is.. the owners become so involved with their dogs that frequently when negative testing results or health issues appear, they continue breeding. Why? Because they can't get rid of that dog, it owns a piece of their heart, they want to breed and, in order to get another dog, they would have to get rid of this one and start all over again... and who's to say that the next poodle wouldn't have the same health issues. 

This is just one example of why less dogs may be not an ideal situation.

There are pros and cons to just about any breeding situation. It's really important to find breeder's that one has a good relationship with and who has some values in common. 

Here are some other situations which are (debatable) (I don't know that "debatable" is the best word choice, but each can have an influence on the pups from a breeder.

Does the breeder work outside of the home?
(possibly does not NEED to make money from a litter)
(do they have the time to spend with a litter?)

Has the breeder had multiple litters?
(Is the breeder mass producing pups?)
(Is the breeder an experienced breeder who knows how to deal with most situations, such as health issues or training which may arise?)

Does the breeder raise their puppies in home?
(Are the pups socialized to things such as vacuum cleaner and dishwashers?)
(Are those pups being exposed to toxic chemicals from air fresheners and carpets?)

Just food for thought.. I could continue with this list and it may actually be fun if someone wanted to start a new thread, to just do something simple like this, without getting into the big ethical debates of right or wrong. EVERY SINGLE BREEDING PROGRAM OUT THERE IS "DEBATABLE". I don't think any of us would want to purchase a cage raised pup, but what's right for one of us, may not be right for the next as far as other situations.


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## Oklahoma

*My thoughts*

I just wanted to say that I'm a little disappointed in this thread. I'm not affiliated with Family Affair in any way and I don't own a FASP dog.

I'm not a religious person, though I was raised Christian. I wouldn't put Biblical quotes on anything personally, but I don't judge people that do. I have spoken with the FASP family about a poodle several times over the past few years as my family has been considering adding a poodle to the list of fur babies that run our house. With each interaction, you can tell that this is something they really believe and it's something that's part of who they are. 

I don't think that the discussion about their religious beliefs, or how it's represented on their website, is really appropriate. If you have any questions about whether or not they believe what they post, that should be taken up with them directly. But it's in poor taste to speak of someone's faith in a forum to me.

As for their operation, again that's something that should be addressed with them. I personally wouldn't want someone else critiquing how I live my life, especially when they don't know me or haven't even met me. That seems wholly unfair.

I grew up spending the summer with my grandparents on their farm in Kansas. Their neighbors bred labs for hunting and my cousins and I would spend every single day with them helping care for their dogs. They had a pretty large operation and they probably had 15-20 breeding dogs at any time, and several litters on the premise at a time.

I can see how some people would think that that would be unmanageable and that the dogs would suffer either in their care or their socialization. From my experience, that wasn't the case. The dogs had their own runs but, during the day, they were out running around with us on about 2 acres that was double fenced. We went swimming, we played soccer, we helped them with leash training, we helped with baths, etc. All day long, every day that it wasn't pouring rain, we had the dogs out playing and socializing. From what I saw, the dogs had their medical needs met as well. The vet was out every few weeks to update shots as they came due, check on the moms, etc.

If I were ever going to be a breeder (and that is not something I have any interest in doing), I wouldn't choose to have an operation that large. But I don't agree with the idea that, just because you have more than 5 dogs, that automatically makes you a puppy mill or means you can't take care of your dogs. It's a challenge I'm sure, but I've seen it done and the dogs were happy, loving and very social.

Also, if you have any question about the health and/or temperament of the FASP dogs, go to their Facebook page and look at all of the user-submitted images and stories. I couldn't find a single instance of a sick dog or someone being upset. Lots and lots of happy people who are owned by FASP dogs. 

As for health testing, I do believe that's important. And I love that more and more breeders are taking it seriously. But, at the same time, healthy dogs are born every day without health testing. I adopted a rescue Schnauzer when I was younger. He was saved from a terrible situation in a puppy mill, where there definitely was not health testing. He lived to be 16 years old and eventually died of old age, with no other medical issues (other than being blind in one eye from old age). I've also spent a pretty penny on a Schnauzer from a reputable breeder, where the parents were health tested, and she has terrible allergies. That's no fault of the breeder - it just happens some times. My point is that, even with health testing, you get dogs that have health issues. And, even without health testing, you can have healthy dogs.

For me, it all comes down to purpose. My sister and her family are the average dog owners. They have a kid in college and another one about to be in college, so they can't afford $2000 for a dog, where the parents have been health tested. I've always told them that they should try to buy from breeders who health test but the reality is that they're almost always priced out on those puppies. They will always choose to go with a breeder that they feel comfortable with, has a clean facility, cares for their dogs and that's okay too. Just because I feel like health testing is important doesn't mean that everyone else has to. And it doesn't make them irresponsible if they don't agree. My sister is always kick to point out their rescue dog they adopted, that's healthier than any person or dog I've ever met, even at 16 years old. 

I'm rambling. I just want to say that I see both sides. But I don't think it's fair for anyone to criticize a stranger or a breeder unless they have met that person, inspected their facility, etc. I think we all deserve a little more respect than that. 

But maybe that's just me.


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## Ladywolfe

> Also, if you have any question about the health and/or temperament of the FASP dogs, go to their Facebook page and look at all of the user-submitted images and stories. I couldn't find a single instance of a sick dog or someone being upset. Lots and lots of happy people who are owned by FASP dogs.


For me, personally, I really like to see how a breeder does handle a problem. Just as in any business, things will happen that give the owner/breeder the opportunity to really show their good side.

I do agree with you, Oklahoma, there are always two side to everything. For me, nothing sends me scurrying away faster than a site like that. But, that is me personally...and, hey, perhaps I would not be the type of person they would want to do business with, either. Maybe this is their way of weeding out a certain type of buyer that they don't want to deal with. It sure does work for me.


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## outwest

Oklahoma, you make some good points. Unfortunately, one of the people you responded to was a breeder who was very recently shut down (there is a sad thread with photos around here) and more than a dozen severly neglected dogs removed (yadda).  

The trouble with poodles is they need frequent grooming or they quickly become a matted mess. You have to be a diligent person to avoid that problem with them. On the other hand, the breeder of my dogs has a lot of dogs. A breeder has to have access to lots of different dogs in order to diversify (if that is what they want to do). The number of dogs owned is a concern, but they also own a grooming shop. I have never seen any of their dogs that weren't impeccably groomed, friendly and healthy, so I agree that it can be done, but it takes cobreeders and owners to spread those dogs around! Poodles are people dogs. They need interaction with people to be happy, not only interaction with other dogs. 

I avoid people who push their religion on others. I am sure there are others like me, so the tactic of using religion may be working against them. I am the first to say everyone has a right to their religious beliefs, but the moment they try to tell me how to believe I run for the hills.  I would never purchase one of their dogs because of the religion alone.


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## Abbe gails Mom

So, OK! you have made your case. Simple, if you dont like a sight, dont go there. They are not pushing there religion off on any one. They never said that any one had to belive there way are they would not sell them a dog. There standing for something, and letting everyone know what it is. Some people think that if you dont stand for something, you will fall for anything. However, if your going to put a breeder down, do it for the way they treat there animals, not for there beliefs.After all, We do still live in AMERICA, dont we ?


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## MaryLynn

I don't think it's about questioning or judging someone's religion, but I do get irked by the "christian" stamp. 

My DH has a management position, and he deals with people who frequently throw the "but I am a good Christian man/woman" thing around, such to say "how could you question me, God doesn't" etc. 

When I look a that website I see nothing different than "my breeding program is justified by my faith" and while it's nothing against the faith per say, it holds a strong biases (to me). It's a strong statement to me as a non religious person, which would I think be in turn a comforting statement to a religious person (and may make less experienced dog adopters NOT ask the right questions, making an assumption that they are in fact infallibly breeding).

They seem to have a lot of dogs, and an awful lot of litters. I am not a big fan of breeding unless you have a wait list or expect your demand etc. I am also not a fan of breeding to produce "rare colours" or to explicitly turn out the highest profit possible. 

I do not know much about colour genetics, but I see that they're breeding a lot of silver/blues to non silver blues, and non blacks etc. It just looks like they're breeding whatever they think will create the most variables. 

However, if I found a future breeder that was doing everything right, and was outward about their faith I wouldn't hesitate to purchase from them. Religion isn't the turn of, but the attitude that being a Christian implies everything is being justly, is a turn off for me. 

I'm just not going to get a dog because someone has faith, everything else still has to be there


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## Ladyscarletthawk

MaryLynn said:


> I don't think it's about questioning or judging someone's religion, but I do get irked by the "christian" stamp.
> 
> My DH has a management position, and he deals with people who frequently throw the "but I am a good Christian man/woman" thing around, such to say "how could you question me, God doesn't" etc.
> 
> Religion isn't the turn of, but the attitude that being a Christian implies everything is being justly, is a turn off for me.


It's sad really that saying, "I'm a Christian", has the opposite effect Than it's meant to. I now some good Christians and they NEVER use that phrase unless you were to ask them what religion they were. They don't toss that phrase around nilly willy, or as a way to put you at ease. They merely show you that they are good people. IME, when someone says they are a good Christian they tend to be the first to curse you out, bounce a check, try to cheat you, gossip about you, or do all sorts of things that should not be done by a "good Christian". Sad but true. I know it sounds harsh but that is my experience , and I in no way mean there are no good Christians or that all people that use that statement are bad. Actions speak louder than words in this case.




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## MaryLynn

Yep, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Deeds, not words.


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## Angl

This is the breeder where I got my Max. Like'm or not, I've never seen a cleaner or more organized place in all of my life. When we took Max to the vet 2 days after bringing him home, he was parasite free and his shots were all up to date. He was so clean and no fleas. Smelled wonderfully, too.  It is a family run business. The AKC inspects it regularly, too. 
We drove the 3 hours, because there were no standard poodle breeders any closer except one and granted she was a vet, but I wasn't that impressed.


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## Angl

The puppies do come with a health guarantee, a 3 and 8 year depending on health problem.


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## 3dogs

The important thing is that you found what you were looking for & now Max has a great home. My OT is from a BYB a client of mine & though she has only had 2 litters in 6 years she is more of an Ooopps! I left my intact male & intact female together & look what happened. Needless to say I have an awesome Poodle & this year we are showing Rally as well as in the groom ring. I also have a Spoo from rescue & my Tpoo is my conformation dog. So I have gone to all different spectrums & have found awesome Poodles. 
Enjoy Max & love the pictures.


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## Surly Seabear

*What a great experience!*

Last Wednesday, March 13th, my wife, daughter and I drove down to meet, what soon would be, our new pup. The facility was very impressive, the staff very kind and helpful. Our pup, Phoebe, was just being dired and having her nails and coat touched up. The staff chatted with us the entire time we waited, making us feel at ease, and were extremely sweet to my 8 year old daughter. Being my 8th experience adopting a new pet from a breeder, this was a very pleasant experience, and well worth driving the 8 hour round trip. Our pup is awesome...while my first Poodle, I am still impressed on how much she already knows. They have followed up with us, to see how Phoebe is adjusting.

When the day comes that I need another poodle, they will be my first place I look.


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## Angl

Can't wait to see pictures.


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## Surly Seabear

Here is Phoebe with our Aussie Kaylee...they get along great!


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## Angl

What a cutie!


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## Surly Seabear

Surly Seabear said:


> Here is Phoebe with our Aussie Kaylee...they get along great!



Update, Phoebe and Kaylee...things are great, while the poodle is a wholly different experience than the German Sheps, labs, and Aussies...our family could not be happier with Phoebe. She has adjusted well and gets along great with all the various dogs we keep at our house for friends. She is very sweet, and such a cuddle monster...what a great dog! The Family Affair has really given us such a joyful addition!

As for the complaints about them posting stuff about their religious view on their site. The ridiculous intolerance of other's views and beliefs is sad really. GROW UP. If you don't like what they like, either ignore it and do business, or look somewhere else.


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## Joelly

Went to their website and loves the puppies. If we have a yard, hubby will definitely want to get a black spoo from them.


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## patk

Surly Seabear said:


> As for the complaints about them posting stuff about their religious view on their site. The ridiculous intolerance of other's views and beliefs is sad really. GROW UP. If you don't like what they like, either ignore it and do business, or look somewhere else.


i have no objection to what they are posting re their faith on their web site. in a way it's helpful, because it makes it easy for me to decide i'd look elsewhere, simply because i wouldn't want to spend the time and effort to go somewhere where i might be lectured about religion and beliefs that are not necessarily my own.


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## BeckyM

patk: As an atheist, I was turned off by their website at first... but I'm happily married to a Christian so I'm pretty tolerant of these things.  I decided to call them to talk about poodles and their litters. I was very happy that they didn't mention religion a single time during the 30 minute phone call. I've had many phone calls and have made 3 trips out to their ranch now and I was very happy that god wasn't mentioned a single time... and that's rare anywhere in the south. I'm not sure why they decided to make religion such a huge part of their website but it's certainly not an issue on the phone or in person.


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## SteviM95

*My Bindi is from FAS*

One of the reasons I chose a FAS poodle was their website & the declarations of faith. I don't think they are perfect breeders, but I think they are honest & open. That's important to me. They do boldly state that they support themselves doing what they love (breeding). That's three families (I think). I'm slightly uncomfortable with the number of breeding dogs...but I've watched their site since buying Bindi & they all do get homes. There are a few things I wished they had told me - 6 week old puppies have not learned bite inhibition & standard poodle puppies break skin. Bindi bit me a lot - hard. My bites were so bad that patients were asking me about it and giving me training advice (I'm a nurse). She attacked feet, tore a large scrape in my mom's ankle and bit the wrist of some old man who wanted to pet the puppy. I still haven't walked her down that street again. The other thing is that when I was looking at puppies, I was wondering about breeding. I asked Wendy about it. Her answer was not as thorough as it should have been. There's lots of things to consider before dreaming about breeding. She really just talked to me about color and size. My Bindi is a beautiful, unusual chocolate color - but she has a little overbite. If I was serious about breeding, I would never consider her. I'm not at all interested in showing, but it sounds rather important for breeding. However - MY first priority is that I wanted a versatile dog. I want Bindi to be 'my dog' when I am not at work - go places, run alongside my horse while I'm riding, do tricks, have fun...and still be able to chill with my physically handicapped mom while I'm at work...maybe even learn to do things like pick up stuff for her. I also want her to be able to be brought to my hospital as a pet therapy dog. I wanted a dog that was not afraid of everything, but wasn't always trying to be the alpha dog. That was my top priority, and Wendy told me that Bindi's sire & grand-sire produced dogs with those personalities. I also just thought the names of her sire and dam were awesome - Cowgirl and Gunsmoke!!! Wendy was right about Bindi's personality. Now that she has stopped biting, she's a favorite wherever we go. She plays happily at the dog park, is pretty calm for mom and LOVES to show off her tricks with me. The other reasons I went with them (besides their statements of faith, openness, and the names of the sire/dam) was that standard poodles are hard to come by. I waited too long between dogs. I was desperate for a dog " NOW" and all of the breeders close to me had waiting lists for 2-3 litters out. Someone told me that means they are responsible breeders, but I was just too impatient. I have gotten exactly what I wanted. God worked it all out. Breeding is no longer a question. Bindi was making a fool of herself to a neighbor's dog and when I learned the dog was still intact, I told the vet we had to get her spayed before her first heat. At that time I just imagined 8-12 little Bindis chasing me and biting me. Now that she's maturing and I'm seeing her fantastic personality, I can't help but wonder if I made a mistake. There's got to be something good about preserving this temperament to the breed! But I'm wondering if it's possible for a mom dog to teach her puppies bite inhibition and other stuff if she did not learn it from her own mom?


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## NOLA Standards

SteviM95,

The comment about a pack of little Bindi's "and biting" made me smile and your question about "preserving this temperament to the breed" prompted me to comment, hopefully with some food for thought....

Who doesn't love a puppy? Really?!! And who doesn't think that THEIR puppy, or their dog for that matter, is the MOST AMAZING ever...

:heart:

We all love and adore our dogs. ESPECIALLY poodles. People mix them with everything these days (gag). And who doesn't think that THEIR special poodle would have great puppies.

And maybe they would.

Since I am involved in rescue, I see another side though, and I feel strongly about it.

No matter how fabulous - if the person who breeds the animal can not promise to rehome EVERY puppy they produce at ANY time in that dog's life, they don't need to breed.

Instead, they just need to go SIT - just for an hour or 2 - at the local shelter.
(I am a breeder, and I am an advocate of those who invest in and protect our breed, so don't let this little tirade make you think I am anti- breeding) Just sit, and watch the revolving door of people with PRECIOUS puppies and AMAZING pets getting DUMPED off with zero responsibility whatsoever.

Whether the breeder did not want to take the puppy back, or the breeder churned out too many dogs to rehome or the placed the dog with home who lacked the responsibility and dedication to fulfill their responsibilities to the fabulous puppy who had the momma with the most amazing temperament ever... :banghead: who really knows the reason....

I had a person who contacted me and wanted full registration. His reason... his children might want to see a litter born one day. I told him NO to Full Registration but recommended if his children wanted to see a litter born they could come over and watch at my house. (What an utterly RIDICULOUS reason to bred a litter).

Sorry....I AM trying to stay in just one spot on this soapbox.

Breeder's should be more than good salesman and more than "good folks".

Breeders should health test and prove their dogs. By doing this, then they know the breed, the breed standard and what concerns there are for the future and health of the breed. If they produce puppies they should be involved in rescue so they can be REMINDED of how they are contributing to the population and that every home is not necessarily the dream they hope it will be. Perhaps if they protest the show ring and conformation venues they could be involved in legislation. There is quite a lot of legislation that affects not only our rights as breeders but also our rights as pet owners.

And...if they can't do at least some of these things, then go sit at that shelter, and think about if breeding more dogs is really the thing to do to the breed (and species) you claim to love.

I do hope this didn't come off as fussing at anyone. It was a question I have heard more than once, and I am only hoping to provide an answer and the thoughts/reasoning behind that answer.

My not so humble opinion...

Respectfully, 

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## SteviM95

Hi Nola. I'm not at all offended or feel fussed at. But I think I would like to move the discussion to another thread. I just foresee it going off topic and want to take it out from under FAS. I think I will use the title "how to know a good breeder" under the poodle breeder directory. Hope you follow up with me there!


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