# Ummm....



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Why would that happen :wacko: ??? There was no controversy or even any even remotely heated discussions :rolffleyes: 

Really strange indeed ... maybe it is temporary ... I am sure they will come up with the reasonable explanation. hwell:

I do not care about Silken or Milken or Quirken LMAO - but I care about censorship a BIG DEAL !!!! It scares the *rap out of me :spy: and there is nothing that unnerves me more than when the truth can not be known O_O !!!

I hope it all is just a glitch ...


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Why would that happen :wacko: ??? There was no controversy or even any even remotely heated discussions :rolffleyes:
> 
> Really strange indeed ... maybe it is temporary ... *I am sure they will come up with the reasonable explanation. hwell:*
> 
> ...


Just like the last times ? rofl

UGH. this place is becoming BYB central!!!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

if you think its so bad...perhaps you should find a more reputable forum that only allows speak of Reputable Ethical breeders? 
:fish:


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> if you think its so bad...perhaps you should find a more reputable forum that only allows speak of Reputable Ethical breeders?
> :fish:


It's more the fact, that this forum only allows the speak of BYB....


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Then Jak thats where you take the intuitive to start threads on reputable breeders instead of speaking on things that you feel are moot points

its a bit asinine to CONSISTENTLY start threads on the same topic and expect a different result each time


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> Then Jak thats where you take the intuitive to start threads on reputable breeders instead of speaking on things that you feel are moot points
> 
> its a bit asinine to CONSISTENTLY start threads on the same topic and expect a different result each time


This was a different topic ... it developed into the same.. Get over it.

I can start threads on reputable breeders, or on unscrupulous breeders..

just like your dear friend.

What I am upset about is that it was removed..

How about you actually understand something before you start commenting ?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

jak said:


> This was a different topic ... it developed into the same.. Get over it.
> 
> I can start threads on reputable breeders, or on unscrupulous breeders..
> 
> ...


you're throwing a tantrum now, and I won't have a conversation with someone above the age of 4 who deems it fit to behave like a toddler :drama:


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> you're throwing a tantrum now, and I won't have a conversation with someone above the age of 4 who deems it fit to behave like a toddler :drama:


Thank goodness for that!


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> you're throwing a tantrum now, and I won't have a conversation with someone above the age of 4 who deems it fit to behave like a toddler :drama:


Hello, Pot? Is that you? You what? You're calling the kettle black? AND you're throwing stones in your glass house? :doh:


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## Birdie (Jun 28, 2009)

Probably because they expected the thread would turn up like this... :rolffleyes: 

Also, pointing fingers over a point you HAVE already addressed (yes, Grady has been extensively discussed in your previous thread on that breeder) is inappropriate. It stops being "let me inform you of this" or "why is this going on?" to "Oh look at that nasty breeder! Hate thread! Hate thread!" That's exactly what it turned into, and I am not surprised the moderators pulled it. Just because PF doesn't allow callout threads (repetitive ones at that) doesn't mean it's "BYB central" as you put it... Calm down. 

Why did you make a whole new thread, anyway? Why not just PM the moderators and ASK them??


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

Jak, I do not agree with the thread being removed without any explanation, but at the same time, it was simply beating a dead horse. If you have an issue, take it up with the mods via PM. Threads like this (and your other one) are just drama generators. I do think it is important and educational to discuss why breeding a certain dog would be beneficial to the breeders lines or detrimental, but to keep the drama down, leave the name of the breeder out of it. If members are curious as to who the breeder is, tell them to PM you.


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

I'm not playing devil's advocate, but isn't this a forum of open discussion on poodles and all that comes with them? Shouldn't we be able to make threads - without intent of malice - about said topic, even if someone else takes it where it shouldn't go? Don't you have the right - like he does to post - to CHOOSE NOT to read a post? No one twisted your arm in to replying. If you don't agree, and don't have a nice, drama-free way to respond... don't!

I don't think that Jak was trying to muddy up the water at all, he is too smart to do that, and doesn't seem to be his character at all. He, like the rest of us, know the outcomes of the other thread that was started, so obviously this one in question wasn't started to try and do the same thing - again, he's not dumb. Had he started the new thread - the one that was removed - to try and start drama, don't you think he would have used a little more choice words as well as known that the moderators would quickly remove the thread knowing the outcome of the other threads and not wanting this one to fall into the same disgusting display of adults *fighting online*.

I think that if anything, Jak was looking for answers that had previously not been given due to the degenerative nature of the threads that he had posted because everyone tried to make it full of drama and take offense where usually none was meant (however in some cases... yes... offense was meant). People obviously don't use the search function on the forum and start repeat threads all the time on here - not sure why this repeat (ridiculous drama or not) is any different.

I also think it is ridiculous to ask to leave the breeder's name out of the mix of discussions as well, as responsible owners who know more than the average puppy buyer and as responsible poodle lovers. That would be like being on a cereal forum and having to omit that you were talking about how crappy honey smacks were, but leaving everyone to guess what cereal you didn't like, and leaving out that it is made by General Mills because we wouldn't want anyone's feelings hurt. (Yes, yes I do realize that cereal and dogs are not the same thing. And honey smacks are disgusting IMO.) Were I Googling breeders, I would want to know the good, the bad, and the ugly, and possibly not have to join a forum (which is possibly unfriendly) to ask some stranger who they were talking about. Keep to the facts, and it isn't libel or slander.

It is hard to get questions answered or get opinions on something when everyone is going off on you about trying to start something (ONLINE NO LESS) when there was probably nothing to start anyway. That and posting pictures of sinks to try and "diffuse" the situation? Not as hilarious as you might think, as well as off topic and slightly annoying when out of context. Post your sinks in the off topic forum and I'll have a laugh at them there, because let's face it, that thread would be the most popular thread ever in the correct place and context.

My two cents. 

P.s. I don't know if Honey Smacks are made by General Mills for sure. I don't really care to check, seeing as this isn't cereal forum.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

If anything, I think the thread should have been frozen? Instead of removed.


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## Rockporters (Jan 14, 2010)

Sorry, I think that I may have been the culprit in getting the thread closed, jak. It was shut down ASAP after my last post. The great thing about message boards.. if a post is repetitive, or if you don't have an interest, you don't have to read it. If subjects weren't repeated and beat to death we'd run out of things to talk about LOL.

I had commented on a new photo posted of Grady that showed him in poor condition. I felt badly for the dog, and I was appalled at what this breeder breeds and how they care for their dogs. (not to mention being dumb enough to post photos of the unkempt dogs on the internet!) I didn't know there had been a previous discussion here on PF about him. Sorry. Still, there are many discussions that come up more than once, usually over and over, so I'm not sure that I understand what the big deal was. 

I thought the discussion on the number of times, and at what age, dogs are being bred was interesting. I appreciate the information that is posted here on PF. I have learned so much since joining. Educating ourselves whether as buyers or as breeders is important. I've heard several breeders say they struggle with how many litters is appropriate before retiring a bitch. I know that it was said Arreau's bitch has been bred 5 times, which seemed to be frowned upon. I *thought* that I had read the general consensus was breeding no more than every other year, with a total of 3 litters, but wasn't sure that I was remembering that correctly so I asked. I appreciate hearing the mindset behind all the different practices, whether everyone agrees with the person or not. 

There is always talk about breeders who breed a dog/bitch too young, has more litters than deemed appropriate, breed poor specimens of the breed, etc... People are usually strongly discouraged to buy from such breeders by most on this board. I'm not sure that I understand why it's okay to rake some breeders over the coals, but civilized discussions about others are censored.

Oh well. I have an energetic dog on my hands who has spied sunshine outside. Off to the park we go. I hope everyone has a fun play day with their pups and families !

EDITED TO ADD: Thanks Arreau for the pm letting me know that most here agree it's every other heat a bitch can be bred, not every other year. I had confused what some of the breeders I know practice, and what I had read here on the boards. Appreciate the clarification!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Boys, don't fight.


Moderator. Why was the thread removed?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I can not add anything since Spencer, Rock and Cbrand already either said what I intended to say or asked the question I wanted to ask.

I really, really hope that this place stays open for discussion of any problematic breeder or breeding practices , *with proper documentation and a proof of such.
*
As a public forum, it has extreme potential to inform and educate the public about what is correct conduct in breeding dogs and what is not and as such has great responsibility to offer open discussions and opinions exchanged.

As I said before many, many times, I can "smell" the "control" , corruption and bias siding for miiiiileeeessss , since I grew up paying attention to that happening around me. And sadly - I can smell it here :wacko:

Wrong things are wrong - no matter how you twist or turn it or who is doing it and for what reason !!!!!!!!!! WRONG !!!!! *period


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I too would like to know why the thread was closed? When i read and posted last night the thread was pretty peaceful. I come back today after working to find it gone. I honestly cannot think of why. I think that if a breeder posts things on the internet, then why can we not discuss it? Its out there for the world to see by their choice. What did we do wrong?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> What did we do wrong?


Nothing wrong was done !!!!! 

Thread was truthful , supported with documentation and peaceful and potential health problems were discussed as well as bad breeding practices.

How is that "wrong" is beyond me :nono: :smow: I did not even participate in that but this uncalled for censorship and subliminal restriction of a public view and freedom of thought is very disturbing and appalling to me personally...


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Birdie said:


> Probably because they expected the thread would turn up like this... :rolffleyes:
> 
> Also, pointing fingers over a point you HAVE already addressed (yes, Grady has been extensively discussed in your previous thread on that breeder) is inappropriate. It stops being "let me inform you of this" or "why is this going on?" to "Oh look at that nasty breeder! Hate thread! Hate thread!" That's exactly what it turned into, and I am not surprised the moderators pulled it. Just because PF doesn't allow callout threads (repetitive ones at that) doesn't mean it's "BYB central" as you put it... Calm down.
> 
> Why did you make a whole new thread, anyway? Why not just PM the moderators and ASK them??


:congrats:

I think that was well put Birdie =]

if anyone is curious why the thread was removed why not PM the moderator who removed it? lol I mean why not go directly to the source... v.v;


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I personally hate things done "behind closed doors" - that is the whole point of this thread .

This is a *public* forum and as members we all have a right to know of what is going on ... or maybe not :wacko: Maybe we should all communicate through PMs from now on ??? 

I do not need a* forum *for that - e-mails would suffice for that purpose


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> :congrats:
> 
> I think that was well put Birdie =]
> 
> if anyone is curious why the thread was removed why not PM the moderator who removed it? lol I mean why not go directly to the source... v.v;


Ok... who was the Moderator who pulled it?


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)




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## Birdie (Jun 28, 2009)

Pffff-
Okay, some people may not find the sink pics joke amusing, but I definitely get a good laugh out of them. :lol:


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Cbrand we only have one moderator at the moment =\
and thats Barb (Plumcrazy)


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)




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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

jak said:


> WTH.. my thread is pulled.. and I don't even get a pm


There is a reason you didn't get a PM jak. In your last PM to me, you requested me to not PM you again. Remember? Just in case you've forgotten, I'll copy it here to help you remember what you said to me:



jak said:


> Your a delusional idiot.
> None of my points have gotten through to you.
> 
> Please don't pm me again.






cbrand said:


> Boys, don't fight.
> 
> 
> Moderator. Why was the thread removed?


Thanks for asking, Carol. The thread was removed because I received a complaint from the owner of the site jak was copying screen shots and photos from to post here, claiming copyright infringement. This website and all photos on the site are her intellectual property and it is not legal to lift the images for posting elsewhere. She requested that I remove the screen shots and photos, but by then; the thread was so imbued with them it was impossible to remove just the copyrighted images without changing the integrity of the entire thread - so I moved the thread and immediately sent a PM to the administrator of the site, informing him of my intent to speak with him about this thread next week (he generally doesn't come on the forum or IM during the weekend - at least I rarely catch him here). If the thread is to be reinstated with the copyrighted images removed - it will be his call.




wishpoo said:


> I can not add anything since Spencer, Rock and Cbrand already either said what I intended to say or asked the question I wanted to ask.
> 
> I really, really hope that this place stays open for discussion of any problematic breeder or breeding practices , *with proper documentation and a proof of such.
> *
> ...


Exactly, wishpoo! What jak did was wrong. It is not OK to steal pages and pictures from someone's personal or business website to post elsewhere without the express written permission of the owner of the site. I'm pretty sure jak did not procure that permission as it was the site's owner who contacted me asking that the images be removed - no censorship involved - just the legalities and moral ethics of copyright infringement. Your statement regarding "proper documentation and proof of such" was a little off - it was not proper at all.




bigpoodleperson said:


> I too would like to know why the thread was closed? When i read and posted last night the thread was pretty peaceful. I come back today after working to find it gone. I honestly cannot think of why. I think that if a breeder posts things on the internet, then why can we not discuss it? Its out there for the world to see by their choice. What did we do wrong?


It was quite late at night when I moved the thread and by the time I got done composing my PM to Yung. I had to wake up very early this morning to volunteer at my kennel club's rummage sale and I had to sign off and get to bed - I was prepared for PMs questioning me about the thread when I returned from my volunteer duites - but there was no reason to believe anyone would feel the need to start a thread ask forum members where the offending thread went since there wasn't anyone here that would be able to answer the question besides me (or Yung)



wishpoo said:


> Nothing wrong was done !!!!!
> 
> Thread was truthful , supported with documentation and peaceful and potential health problems were discussed as well as bad breeding practices.
> 
> How is that "wrong" is beyond me :nono: :smow: I did not even participate in that but this uncalled for censorship and subliminal restriction of a public view and freedom of thought is very disturbing and appalling to me personally...


As I stated before, wishpoo - not censorship, copyright infringement. Also, there have been numerous threads removed before I became moderator regarding other breeders' practices that I felt should not have been removed from the public's view - and I have made my point known to the administrator regarding those threads. However, once this has been done for one breeder, it is only right to allow the same courtesy to other breeders if necessary. I'm not sure this latest thread will be ABLE to be reinstated because of the copyright issues, unless all photos and screenshots are removed (and then the thread will be quite unrecognizable anyway). 



Birdie said:


> Pffff-
> Okay, some people may not find the sink pics joke amusing, but I definitely get a good laugh out of them. :lol:


I do too, Birdie!! Thanks for the tension breaker Aidan and Fluffyspoos!! 

If anyone has anything further to say regarding this matter - I'd appreciate it being taken to the PMs since nothing in this thread is about poodles anyway. Thanks for your time and sorry I was absent today - but duty called!

Barb


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I understand that Silken and Poodle Puddle don't like the negative critique of their breeding stud, Grady. However, I'm not sure she can call copyright foul.  The Poodle Puddle web site clearly references the "fair use clause" of the Canadian copyright law. A brief search about the issue, turned up this:

_The Canadian concept of fair dealing is similar to that in the UK and Australia. The fair dealing clauses[1] of the Canadian Copyright Act allow users to engage in certain activities relating to research, private study, criticism, review, or news reporting. With respect to criticism, review, and news reporting, the user must mention the source of the material, along with the name of the author, performer, maker, or broadcaster for the dealing to be fair._ 

Also.....

It then establishes six principal criteria for evaluating fair dealing.

1. The Purpose of the Dealing Is it for research, private study, criticism, review or news reporting? It expresses that "these allowable purposes should not be given a restrictive interpretation or this could result in the undue restriction of users' rights." In particular, the Court gave a "a large and liberal interpretation" to the notion of research, stating that "lawyers carrying on the business of law for profit are conducting research".

2. The Character of the Dealing How were the works dealt with? Was there a single copy or were multiple copies made? Were these copies distributed widely or to a limited group of people? Was the copy destroyed after being used? What is the general practice in the industry?

3. The Amount of the Dealing How much of the work was used? What was the importance of the infringed work? Quoting trivial amounts may alone sufficiently establish fair dealing as there would not be copyright infringement at all. In some cases even quoting the entire work may be fair dealing. The amount of the work taken must be fair in light of the purpose of the dealing.

4. Alternatives to the Dealing Was a "non-copyrighted equivalent of the work" available to the user? Was the dealing "reasonably necessary to achieve the ultimate purpose"?

5. The Nature of the Work Copying from a work that has never been published could be more fair than from a published work "in that its reproduction with acknowledgement could lead to a wider public dissemination of the work - one of the goals of copyright law. If, however, the work in question was confidential, this may tip the scales towards finding that the dealing was unfair."

6. Effect of the Dealing on the Work Is it likely to affect the market of the original work? "Although the effect of the dealing on the market of the copyright owner is an important factor, it is neither the only factor nor the most important factor that a court must consider in deciding if the dealing is fair." 

I think it is clear that the law allows us to "critique" something that was publicly published.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_First: I don't remember a thread about this breeder being posted in the past and I do miss a lot now that I have so much work to do. So, this was the first time that I can remember seeing this particular dog. I still don't know if it was camera angle/bad set up that brought about the questioning of this particular stud to being with. But, if I was truly interested in dealing with this breeder, I would go to see the stud in person, as we did with all of our puppy purchases, and make an evaluation in person; not based on a photo on the web site alone anyway.

Second: I love the sinks for a tension breaker. eace:

Third: I tend to agree with Cbrand regarding copyright infringement. There is a fine line between what is 'fair use' and what is considered 'infringement'. I have always believed that once an image is made public, including my own, it is exempt from certain uses but not all. Although, you cannont copy and make prints and sell it for profit, I do not believe that you are not allowed to use it for discussion. Sometimes it takes a lawyer to define that line.

I don't think that using an image to talk about what we see as good and what we see as not being to standard is wrong based on the image that is offered form the breeder's web site. This is one of the ways that we here learn about our breed. But, I do believe that when a thread becomes ugly with personal attacks and mud slinging at the breeder, it has gone too far and is no longer of any use to anyone and needs to be closed. I did not see the final post on that thread so cannot comment on it. I do understand Plum's position as moderator to have to take some sort of action based on the fact that she was contacted by the breeder with a complaint. She is waiting for input from the our administrator before deciding where to go from there and I believe that is the appropriate action for her to take. I am sure I would have done the same thing.

Since we are breeding, I expect to be questioned about our stock and our practices. I expect to have people who do not agree with some of or choices as well. This is part of being a breeder. You are in the public's eye and, therefore, subject to criticism both good and bad.

I agree with Plum that removing all of the images pretty much makes that thread moot. Without them, nothing will make sense to a reader who had not seen it before they were removed.

I can understand the breeders upset over her images ending up here for discussion. I am sure I would be upset if an image I used on my web site for my dogs was used to criticize my business in an uncomplimentary manner. But, then, being a breeder, I would expect what I publish to be open to criticism as well. In that case, I would assess what is being said and whether or not I need to make a change to my breeding practices. In any case, it is still my final decision as to whether to continue to use what I have or to change it and believe enough in what I am doing to keep moving forward with what I have and what I am doing or make changes that would better my program.

As I mentioned in the beginning, although an image 'can be' quite telling, the only way to really assess an animal is to meet it in person, look it over, watch it move, assess its temperament. Input from others is certainly helpful but nothing beats hands-on assessment. I do not know this breeder, her program nor her stock and was making comments based on what was posted and giving benefit of the doubt since I have never seen her dogs and know nothing about her.

_


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

It's disappointing that this forum will not allow certain people to bring facts to light. I find it engaging to question anyone's breeding practices. It helps determine what works and what doesn't. I would like to think that several breeders and buyers alike can learn a lot from the information we put out there.

More and more I see that the people with the most knowledge are censored. Why PM a breeder's name when they are the topic of discussion? I like to be able to do my own independent research and couldn't do that if I don't even know who the breeder is. I don't like playing charades on the internet or trying to talk around a subject. This is what creates confusion and misinformation.

Keep putting the facts out there and let's discuss it....that is, if we are allowed to do so. I don't see any copyright infringements and the pictures were not taken out of context. If the breeder wants to, she can post too.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I completely agree BFF (and Carol, spoospirit)!!! How can we discuss breeders and breedings here if we cannot say their names? I have learned a LOT since joining this forum about good breeding practices (i thought i knew alot when coming on here, but have learned a ton more!)!! It would be a shame if new people could not get that knowledge either. 

I hate it when everything is done through PM's. I dont want to be part of the "elite group" who knows everything through PMs, but i would like to know what is being discussed. I dont see the need to ask any other questions about this thread or any input through PMs. What questions i have or input can be read by others and commented on. I for one would like this thread to stay public, and i do understand why you for the time being had to pull the origional thread.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

*Cbrand* - thanks for doing research regarding copyrights !!!! I am really tiered of "Boooooo !!!!" tactics and scaring people away from any valuable and serious discussion on this forum. All of the sudden anybody can come and "wave" in the air some invented "legal rules" and threats with no base or validation :whip:

*Spoospirit* - more than well said !!!! I though do not agree that thread without images has "no value" since health issues in small dogs were discussed i_n general_ as well as problems that can arise when _breeding between 2 variates of a poodle are conducted. _ That information alone is educational IMO, regardless of the photos :rolffleyes:

*BFF and Bigpoodle *- I agree 100 %

I see no valid reason for PMs to be encouraged - I do not think that it is the case that saying critique "behind ones back" is more acceptable and more polite or more productive :wacko: - I would think the opposite is the case !It is than nothing but a gossip and I do not want to resort to it ! I will never say something behind somebody's back without that person knowing of my stand and opinion, although it would be MUCH easier for me to choose that venue... obviously !

I just came back from great outing , it is 11:45 and I would rather go and enjoy opening "goodies" I brought home , but I choose not to "look the other way" just because it is easier. I also will never look the other way when I see something unethical done - no matter what matter is in question or whose rights are infringed - dog or a person, and no matter how many sinks are posted LOL


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

wow so mods are allowed to post our PM now ?:wacko::rolffleyes::scared:


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

was jak hotlinking? if so, then the images need to be removed and just a link put up and forum members can then go and check it out to their hearts content.


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

I've said it already, and I'll say it again... I'm not playing devil's advocate, however there are some things that have been said that I have a problem with.



plumcrazy said:


> I received a complaint from the owner of the site jak was copying screen shots and photos from to post here, claiming copyright infringement. This website and all photos on the site are her intellectual property and it is not legal to lift the images for posting elsewhere.


But other people post pictures they don't own all the time and it is never a problem. Sinks, as an example. Yes, I understand that this time someone asked for their pictures to be removed, which is within their rights - I hate having pictures taken, too. But is the only reason it was rushed to do this because the breeder in question is a close, personal friend of a friend? I, myself, posted a picture of Falcor like a month ago and no one complained... possibly because no one at the studios has a friend on poodle forum to tell them everything that goes on.



plumcrazy said:


> I'm pretty sure jak did not procure that permission


Then again, sinks or other images not owned by the poster. I'm sure when we upload something we agree to something of the fact that the picture we are posting is our own and is not infringing on copyright, correct? This is the same situation, it's just that no one has complained personally about the pictures. It is just as "illegal" for them to post them as it was for him to post those.



plumcrazy said:


> I do too, Birdie!! Thanks for the tension breaker Aidan and Fluffyspoos!! If anyone has anything further to say regarding this matter - I'd appreciate it being taken to the PMs since nothing in this thread is about poodles anyway.


RE: again, sinks. This thread is now off topic with sinks. You can't really tell people they need to stay on topic on any other thread now when you yourself are encouraging derailment by basically giving people permission to post *illegally used without explicit permission* pictures of sinks. And about this thread not being about poodles? I have seen a few threads in the past week or so that are in poodle talk and have really nothing to do with poodles at all, and if they are "about poodles" it is a giant stretch.



BFF said:


> It's disappointing that this forum will not allow certain people to bring facts to light. I find it engaging to question anyone's breeding practices. It helps determine what works and what doesn't. I would like to think that several breeders and buyers alike can learn a lot from the information we put out there.
> 
> More and more I see that the people with the most knowledge are censored. Why PM a breeder's name when they are the topic of discussion? I like to be able to do my own independent research and couldn't do that if I don't even know who the breeder is. I don't like playing charades on the internet or trying to talk around a subject. This is what creates confusion and misinformation.
> 
> Keep putting the facts out there and let's discuss it....that is, if we are allowed to do so. I don't see any copyright infringements and the pictures were not taken out of context. If the breeder wants to, she can post too.


Well said, everything.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

faerie said:


> was jak hotlinking? if so, then the images need to be removed and just a link put up and forum members can then go and check it out to their hearts content.


Agree faerie. 


Copyright infringement I think is being interpreted incorrectly according to what I am familiar with. So long as you are not altering the content, pictures or claiming they are yours they can be shared. But maybe links is a better solution. 

I teach classes and use excerpts from other studies and cases and when it is not mine, I state on my power point presentations where I pulled the EXACT content from. 

I do not want to take sides, I think it is the job of the forum administrators to determine what content they will allow and not. I would caution that if it is done for one, it should be done for all. 

Jak is not a thief in what he did, and I feel bad he was called that. As I would anyone else on here. 

I really hope that people can just move past some of the issues that have been brewing behind the scenes so that we can all participate productively in threads. 

EDIT- that Jak was stealing.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I guess I am probably a suck about hurting other people's feelings. The reason why I objected to the other thread was partly because Arreau, who is a very respected poster on the board - has bred to a Silken dog and the owner of Silken is a friend of hers.

Also, Nevar has a lovely phantom standard from Silken.

I just thought the thread would hurt the feelings of people who post on the board. And to go on and on about it in several posts - I just thought leave it alone!!


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## creativeparti (Mar 9, 2009)

Purley said:


> I guess I am probably a suck about hurting other people's feelings. The reason why I objected to the other thread was partly because Arreau, who is a very respected poster on the board - has bred to a Silken dog and the owner of Silken is a friend of hers.
> 
> Also, Nevar has a lovely phantom standard from Silken.
> 
> I just thought the thread would hurt the feelings of people who post on the board. And to go on and on about it in several posts - I just thought leave it alone!!


100% agree....


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Purley said:


> I just thought the thread would hurt the feelings of people who post on the board. And to go on and on about it in several posts - I just thought leave it alone!!


I am with you which is why I stay out of it most of the time. I think its obvious some do not agree with how others breed but whats most important for this forum is when these threads get off topic mods should steer them back and if need be close the thread BUT be consistent on closing threads. 

We have one moderator which is not enough. I am sure this is a lot of work, we need more IMO.

I have my opinion on many things, but I just do not express it most of the time because if you do your taking sides. My only point was what I believe to know on copyrighting.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

one thing to remember, we are all guests here. 

if we don't like how things are done, then we are welcome to not log on and go away.

i'm a mom to one standard poodle. i have no desire to be a groomer, nor a breeder. i have no desire to be involved in drama either. but i can give some good drama ... heh.

on a soap forum i'm on, when threads go south we pull out food recipes instead of pics of sinks. and lots of them include brussel sprouts (nom)

this is one reason why i'm a great cook. heh.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

faerie said:


> on a soap forum i'm on, when threads go south we pull out food recipes instead of pics of sinks.


OK...I just have to ask. How do flame wars start about soaps?!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Birdie:

LOLOL, I got a kick out of this as the intensity of the posts was getting stronger, so this came in at the right time 


Honestly this is getting SO unproductive..

What I have learnt in my many years in the breed and dogs in general is that there will always be breeders out there who may not do things the way some of us do and also will not look at the reasons for breeding their dogs the way other breeders do.

Some breeders will breed for the betterment of the breed and want to keep a puppy from each litter if it niks..

Others breed because they enjoy breeding and raising puppies but at the same time do not want to keep any pups out of the litters still the puppies are properly raised with care and love, being socialized and carefully sold to suitable homes.

Would I personaly breed a litter without keeping a puppy from each to go on with.. the answer is no.. Now.. would I keep a puppy from a litter that did not nik and did not produce what I had expected, the answer is no as well. 

So there are at times reasons why a breeder will not keep a puppy from their litters. It may be because they did not plan to or it may be because they did not produce what they had hoped they would.

The question is: If the breeder bred the litter choosing the dam and sire carefully and the litter produced a couple of very pretty puppies which the breeder feels are promissing show prospect (s), than by all means if I were them I would definitely keep a puppy from this quality litter to expand my breeding program and have a conformationally sound and pretty puppy to continue my line with. 

Then there are those breeders who strictly breed to put food on the table disregarding the age, quality and health testing of the dam and/or sire they use and breed them too early and/or untested, and worse yet, tested but not passing one or several genetic health tests.

These are the breeders I would label BYB, not the ones who just breed a litter to lovingly raise the puppies and carefully selling them all and not necessarily keeping a puppy from each litter.

Now if the aforementioned type of breeder lovingly raises their litter and breeds several without ever keeping any puppies out of them I would then question the motive and purpose for the breedings.

We have to agree to disagree, and no matter how many times this thread will be hashed and rehashed nothing will change as some breeders will continue to practice what they believe in while others continue to challenge their purpose for breeding.

This is going to always be an ongoing war and if any here think that the thread will produce any solutions or changes it will not.

None of us can change how breeders think and breed. We can either choose to agree or disagree and move on. Beating a dead horse will never bring about changes.

JMHO


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Feralpudel said:


> OK...I just have to ask. How do flame wars start about soaps?!


Me too - assuming this is about making soap, rather than watching soaps? ("Confused? You will be!")

Sorry - this post is probably wildly off topic.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

faerie said:


> this is one reason why i'm a great cook. heh.


And you are more then welcome to share, I encourage PLEASE!! I am always admiring your food on FB. Love new recipes for humans. 

Whitepoodles - you are a breath of unbelievable fresh air, so glad you are here to shed some very good light on things.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

Feralpudel said:


> OK...I just have to ask. How do flame wars start about soaps?!


oh it's easy. 
natural vs synthetic ingredients across the board. business practices are a big thing too. 

oh and politics and religion .. .our off topic section is really busy and we get lots of fun trainwrecks there. and good recipes tossed in there.

more in depth:

okay ... i make handmade soaps and body care ... i post on a forum with other people who do the same. some have fairly thriving businesses and some are hobbiests. we come from all walks of life and all continents!

but we have one commonality ... we love making and using handmade quality soaps and body care.

so we have a passion for this. we want to offer fantastic safe products.

so we find it really important to share our information and help educate from the newbie soaper to those like me who are supporting our families on our business and growing. 

so you can see that there is a similar theme there as here. we have passion and things we see important. here it's poodles and there it's soap and cosmetics.

here i am a newbie hobbiest. there i am a seasoned expert.

so when things get icky we try to take it down a notch and post recipes and get the thread to shift energy. 

and i am right now roasting a fantastic chicken in the crockpot .. plan on posting pics on facebook later on


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you are right, faerie - passionate views can create sparks when they clash, but without them how would things ever change?

Recipes sound like a good idea - although I have enjoyed the sinks. I am about to experiment with red currant gin, if anyone wants the recipe!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

FJM and Faerie:

I would love to share recipes. I consider myself a pretty good cook and especially good baker so why dont you guys creat a new thread called RECIPES , that would be fun I think.

I have plenty (fantastic cakes and European style torts ) I wouldnt mind sharing.

Montreal is a city which boasts an amazing gastronomy and we have what are considered among the top restaurants in North America.

We have a multitude of European chefs and very posh fancy and delicious restaurants. Montreal is well known as a gastronomic heaven.

I always take clients who fly to pick up their puppy to various restaurants and they are amazed at the quality of food we have here.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

We Didn't Start the Flame War - CollegeHumor video hey this is relevant


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> Montreal is well known as a gastronomic heaven.


i am a real foodie. 
one of my goals in life is to travel the world just to enjoy the food. lol. i guess eat my way around the world. i've heard good things about montreal. i had a friend from morocco who lives there. she's an amazing cook.


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## 1Jurisdiva (May 4, 2010)

Olie said:


> Agree faerie.
> 
> 
> Copyright infringement I think is being interpreted incorrectly according to what I am familiar with. So long as you are not altering the content, pictures or claiming they are yours they can be shared. But maybe links is a better solution.
> ...


Wow - you get too busy to check in for a week and you miss A LOT. 

Olie's understanding of copyright is mine as well - but it is not my area of expertise. I do think her idea of using links is the safest way to reference material on a breeder page. It is very easy for a breeder, upset at an unflattering discussion, to say there copyright infringement - whereas whether they have a legal foundation to do so is a tougher question. Again I think links may be the way to go.

I personally hope we can continue to discuss breeder practices. I find it very educational - both the opinions for and against a breeder. I'm sure there is no way for a breeder to please every possible puppy buyer, and some things that don't bother others may bother me or vice versa, but how else other than discussion can you determine what breeding practices appeal to you?


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

faerie said:


> i am a real foodie.
> one of my goals in life is to travel the world just to enjoy the food. lol. i guess eat my way around the world. i've heard good things about montreal. i* had a friend from morocco who lives there. she's an amazing cook.*




NOW you are talking... I LOVE Maroccan food. again one of my favorites even at times more than Sushi.
The aromas the taste and sweet with the spices etc.. in Marocan food is heavenly.

We have a great restaurant here called Medina.. where you sit on the floor in front of a huge table and uner a tent and served bits and pieces of different type of meat in Tagines (stew in arabic) well made and you get to enjoy belly dancers around you who take men (especially LOL) from the crowd and make them dance the belly dance in front of all the customers. 

You should see some of these men twist their butts you will need a diaper...


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Roxy I think the PM jak sent barb was VERY relevant...he called her an idiot and said not to PM ever again so she was showing him why he wasn't notified of his thread being pulled, did it breach privacy? who knows Yung's the admin he'll deem whats fit and whats not

but the lesson was learned never call anyone a *direct* name... 
or put your head up the right skirts LMAO <--- true irony 

and I'm for the sinks, if anyone is afraid of copyright infringement of the sink photos use links 
or...contact the websites that own the sinks, I'm sure they'd love to be featured on our most popular threads

OOOH I have a great dessert recipe I can share 
its amazing :drool:


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> Roxy I think the PM jak sent barb was VERY relevant...he called her an idiot and said not to PM ever again so she was showing him why he wasn't notified of his thread being pulled, did it breach privacy? who knows Yung's the admin he'll deem whats fit and whats not
> 
> but the lesson was learned never call anyone a *direct* name...
> or put your head up the right skirts LMAO <--- true irony
> ...




Keith:

Ok do share and lets stop this rehashing over and over again.. Done finished lost its momentum.. lets end it..and move on.. PLEASE !! 

So what is your recipe ? I have my notepad ready


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

whitepoodles said:


> [/B][/COLOR]
> 
> So what is your recipe ? I have my notepad ready


I'll have to dig it out of my mothers recipe boxes  but once I find it I'll post it Ora ^_^


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## apoodleaday (Feb 22, 2010)

Here's the reason I'm quitting. This is the PM Roxy sent me to I guess try and make me stop having the balls to say what other people are thinking. (apoodleaday is not the speaker here, this is part of the orginal post)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by poodleadm; 08-18-2010 at 01:34 PM. Reason: Sorry but you cannot post what people write in PM 

this was copied from the thread in Poodle Talk "I think its time for poodle # 2" permalink #254

I copied and pasted this from another thread. I couldn't figure out how to link it, I'm sorry.
Is the information in red correct or incorrect?
If this is not the proper thread for this question, please move it to the appropriate section. No disrespect is meant to any forum member or moderator, I am just asking for clarification.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

> Now.. would I keep a puppy from a litter that did not nik and did not produce what I had expected


What does "nik" mean in that context?


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## Oodlejpoodle's mom (Sep 11, 2009)

Jak is a very conscientious young man who probably knows more about poodle pedigrees than a good amount of the members here. He has a great eye when it comes to poodles and only wants to BETTER the breed…..not just to have people breeding for profit. I’m sorry but this is not the “Red Poodle Forum” and others should not be are discriminated against because they are not in that group (I think at one time Jak was in “the group” but must have bucked someone who thinks they are important). The particular breeder that the original post was about has dogs that look pet quality at best (some perhaps deformed, maybe it’s the photography, who knows and who cares, the dog is still pet quality)….and yes five litters are too many for one bitch IMO and the opinion of the two Veterinarians I have asked (along with respected breeders). Just because people DO health testing does not mean they are not BYB’s. This is a place where we are supposed to LEARN, we have some breeders that are not BYB’s as members that can help us all learn new things about this wonderful breed we all love.
Maybe some of you should practice what he preaches! Enough said and before anyone gives me a hard time…..My pets are neutered and spayed (and adored pet quality Poodles) as that little boy in the photos should be.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

What I would personally really like to see is pictures of winning dogs (either the poster's own or else pictures of winning dogs from show sites) with a commentary of "this dog is excellent quality because...." and point out legs, chest, front, tail set, coat quality, shape of head, stop, etc., etc.

Or people could post pics of their _own dogs _and ask for commentary, regardless of whether they aim to show or not. Ask for comments and critiques, or offer them, or say "my dog is pet quality because..." or "my dog is show quality because...." and give specific reasons, referring to the picture.

There are jillions of ways a dog can be "not show quality." The important thing to learn is what DOES make show quality. You want to study examples of the BEST, the real thing, and then you can easily recognize the counterfeit when you see it.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> We have to agree to disagree, and no matter how many times this thread will be hashed and rehashed nothing will change as some breeders will continue to practice what they believe in while others continue to challenge their purpose for breeding.


That is unfortunate fact :smow: and I agree that no effort can sway unethical breeder from continuing of what he/she is doing unless the breeder was truly unaware of the consequences it can have on the health of puppy and in a wider context the whole breed itself.

Discussions about health issues and correct approach to breeding dogs on this forum are more intended as an educational tool for future pet buyers than questioned breeders - at least that is why I participate in them. I know that I was lied many times as a future puppy buyer as well as you were dear Ora when you sought your first puppy and you had to go through financial as well as emotional loss : (((. 

For those reasons alone, I will never stop trying to educate people of how to choose a breeder and a puppy !!!!!! If public gets educated enough and informed - BYBs and shabby breeders will loose the naive clients and thus would have to modify their breeding programs if they want to "stay in business". 

Even in this short time of 7 mos , many noticed tremendous amount of change breeders on ALL levels (from BYB to show) started conducting and even web-pages started changing with information being more readily available and some started doing health tests that previously were never done. So, I have to disagree that no change can be made since obviously a positive things are happening as an aftermath of unfortunately sometimes heated discussions. 

Numerous new members thanked this forum over and over again for the guidance and information about health testing importance as well as early socialization and for explanation WHY correct confirmation IS important NOT only for showing.

Sometimes photos are absolutely necessary for demonstration of such matters - pictures are worth a thousand words , or so they say.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Right, which is why I would like to see pictures of GOOD and EXCELLENT examples, not just bad examples.


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> or put your head up the right skirts LMAO <--- true irony


What is this, your mantra? Sounds about right. 

I'm surprised Barb or Cherie can even walk anymore seeing as your head is so far up there. I feel that you have added nothing to any recent threads other than to just throw out there that you have an in with the management. This is not the first thread you have done this in. You are a drama enabler and seem to enjoy creating it as well. In future threads, I will just ignore all of your "contributions" (if they can be called such) and continue on as if you aren't even here... I think this will make my forum experience much more pleasant. 
-----------------------------
I think it was wildly inappropriate to repost a PRIVATE MESSAGE. And in what context did he tell Barb to not message him again? Did she message him as a member (not as a mod) and he replied in that fashion, or did she message him as a mod (and not another member) and he replied in that way? I think that matters. 

I also think it is quite inappropriate that I was forwarded private messages in a private message in an attempt for me to "pick sides". 

So let's all get the rules on posting breeder threads correct so that we can easily move on in the future, shall we?
- if the breeder is a friend what ANYONE on the forum, your thread will be removed unless all you have to say is sunshine and lollipops. 
- if anyone on the forum owns a dog from the breeder, same as above. 
- if anyone just has a general problem with the OP, g'head and report them, just because you can, but be sure to let everyone know you have an in with the mods, so you are sure that any drama you start or feel like fanning flames to will not be punished

Heaven forbid we learn anything new, right?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

...your opinion on what I post is just that your opinion, I don't care for it but you're more than welcome to have it

you seem to have a grudge against me for some unknown reason, and I could probably swing it and make me look like a victim but I won't because I don't really care what you think of me 

I hope all your life endeavors pan out <3.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> Right, which is why I would like to see pictures of GOOD and EXCELLENT examples, not just bad examples.


Yes , and they were posted many , many times - you can use the search engine and you will find a ton of them. Also, "Show" section will give you excellent education in that department  

Happy viewing  !!!


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## Oodlejpoodle's mom (Sep 11, 2009)

[I also think it is quite inappropriate that I was forwarded private messages in a private message in an attempt for me to "pick sides". 

Spencer, Who sent you a private message asking for you to "pick sides"?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> Spencer, Who sent you a private message asking for you to "pick sides"?


Well, this would be hilarious if it was not VERY sad , actually :wacko: !!!!

The EXACT reason I say PMs can only cause more confusion and havoc in a place like this :doh:

May heavens help us all :scared:


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## creativeparti (Mar 9, 2009)

Omg this is all so silly why do we come on here because we all love our poodles.... 


i know not everyone will agree with each others veiws but why does there need to be a massave argument about it all i have been watching this and the previous thred and its just all got blown out of propertion

jak was making a point in the begining about a breeding he didnt like thats his opion and hes intited to it prob yes he shouldnt of put the pics up for whatever reason and a link would of been better but also the topic of that breeder had been discussed before. but i dont think the thread should of been pulled 

i didnt c why the topic ineeded to be brought up again esp seing as there are other ppl on this forum who have dogs from that breeder how do u think it makes them feel like they havent brought a good dog there are far worse breeders on this planet than that breeder 

as of a mod posting a comment from a pm... as the whole message was not posted i dont c why that was a problem either. if i was offened by someone calling me names i would tell ppl as well its insulting. 

no body should be picking sides..... if there is a serious prob that should be discussed though pms... 

i honestly dont know what to say anymore but lets just drop it now and enjoy our forum.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> no body should be picking sides


Oh I do !!!!! I will ALWAYS pick a side of a good, honest and educated breeder who does all health testing and is working on the betterment of the breed  !!!

Sorry, but I can not help it or want to lower my standards :wacko:


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

creativeparti said:


> i honestly dont know what to say anymore but lets just drop it now and enjoy our forum.


I agree

its not conducive to anything that this forum is about to constantly bicker back and forth amongst ourselves...

I apologize if my sarcastic view of the world has offended anyone because I don't mean harm by it, people should take things with a grain of salt ((I really hate cliches v.v; ))


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## creativeparti (Mar 9, 2009)

i just ment on here,.... its stupid if ppl are getting pms from ppl trying to get them to pick what side they are on like being on a school play ground


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> i just ment on here,.... its stupid if ppl are getting pms from ppl trying to get them to pick what side they are on like being on a school play ground
> _


Shell we all give that person a "look" LMAO I have a pretty good feeling who sent that PM :hello:


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## creativeparti (Mar 9, 2009)

i dont get it wishpoo...


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

creativeparti said:


> i just ment on here,.... Its stupid if ppl are getting pms from ppl trying to get them to pick what side they are on like being on a school play ground


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

CreativeParti - LOL - I just have feeling I know who sent it , that is all...LOL


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)




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## creativeparti (Mar 9, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> CreativeParti - LOL - I just have feeling I know who sent it , that is all...LOL


ok cool


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I was the person who sent Spencer the PM, and it was NOT to ask her to choose sides, but rather to give her some background into the degeneration of the relationship two people on this forum have/had. I would not ask someone to choose sides. I have learned from being on this forum that there are a load of opinions on all kinds of issues, there are many, many personalities and we are not going to get along with everyone. We all have the right to jive or not jive with every individual we encounter in this life, and Keith is a perfect example of this. Keith and I have become dear friends away from this forum, but he clearly rubs Spencer the wrong way. Different strokes for different folks. I do not have to agree with everything he posts or everything he thinks or everything he says for me to still like him. And the same holds true for Spencer. She has the right to like or dislike whomever she pleases. Spencer, I have apologized to you in private and apologize to you in public. I was trying to give you background and share with you my opinion of some of what has been going on here. Please forgive me?
It was not an attempt to have you "choose sides". I 55 years old and do not attend high school anymore.

Oodlejpoodlesmom....The vets you asked about breeding a bitch five times do not have a working knowledge of my girl. They do not know her history, her condition or her health. I do and my vet does. I would not EVER put her in jeopardy to produce another litter simply to produce more puppies. My dogs are my surrogate children, first and foremost. My kids have all flown to coop and my dogs are like my kids now. I have a perfectly healthy, beautiful Whippet who has only ever had one litter of puppies because she despised the act of being bred. I swore I would never put her thorugh that again and I haven't and will not. Holly enjoys the entire process, whelps easily, rears her kids happily and bounces back beautifully. I love her as much as I love Iris, and if I thought for an instant that a fifth litter would create a problem for her, it would not have happened. Period. Or if my vet said it was not going to be good for her, it would not have happened. Period. I have her two daughters who after their testing results prove they are fine to breed, will be bred. I would not put my girl in danger when I will likely be having another litter of puppies in December. Holly will be spayed as soon as these pups are off to their new families and will enjoy her retirement, although I know she will pine for any future litters we have in our home.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

Olie - the designer/s of that slide didn't have much hind sight


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## creativeparti (Mar 9, 2009)

*I was the person who sent Spencer the PM, and it was NOT to ask her to choose sides, but rather to give her some background into the degeneration of the relationship two people on this forum have/had*

im sorry for saying it being like a school playground just shows how words can get twisted so quickly.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

whitepoodles said:


> Birdie:
> 
> None of us can change how breeders think and breed. We can either choose to agree or disagree and move on. Beating a dead horse will never bring about changes.
> 
> JMHO





creativeparti said:


> no body should be picking sides..... if there is a serious prob that should be discussed though pms...
> 
> i honestly dont know what to say anymore but lets just drop it now and enjoy our forum.



_I'm with you ladies. Let's move on. The horse is DEAD! :deadhorse: And, it is starting to stink. Nothing has changed and won't, so there is no longer any point to this. Everyone has made their point and now it is just a rehashing of the mess all over again.

Sending PM's to people to pick sides!!!!:doh: All that comes to mind is, WOW!! If we are all, indeed, adults here, then each of us should be able to stand up on our own principles and speak out on what we believe without the prompting of others through PMs to take 'sides' in contentious threads!

Name calling?, in a thread or PM?, for whatever reason; I do get the distinct feeling that I am back on the playground in grade school. True adults do not need to drop to the bottom of the barrel to call people names because they do not agree with them. That is a sure sign that you have run out of avenues to push your point and are desperate. So sad. We aren't here to 'convince' every one else that our thoughts are the right ones. Debate is healthy and informed people will make up their minds for themselves.

Well.....adios....see you all in a more productive thread._


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I was the person who sent Spencer the PM, and it was NOT to ask her to choose sides, but rather to give her some background into the degeneration of the relationship two people on this forum have/had. I would not ask someone to choose sides.


_My apologies, Cherie. I apparently was writing while you were posting this. That makes a difference in the nature of the PM. 

On the other hand, I have been told about (my personal information;not to be shared) PM's that were purely to ask people to take their side and I and sometimes the receiver of these PMs find this to be unacceptable.
_


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> Nothing has changed and won't,


Well :wacko:, that is depressing thought ... :smow:


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)




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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _My apologies, Cherie. I apparently was writing while you were posting this. That makes a difference in the nature of the PM.
> 
> On the other hand, I have been told about (my personal information;not to be shared) PM's that were purely to ask people to take their side and I and sometimes the receiver of these PMs find this to be unacceptable.
> _


No apology necessary!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Well :wacko:, that is depressing thought ... :smow:


_Wishpoo, I said that not to bring depression to those who are hopeful but because change must come from within each of us. You and ONLY you can change how you feel, think, react to the world. This is true of each and every human being. Trying to push an opinion on another person does not and will not bring about change in that person. Those who keep pushing their point believing that this will somehow miraculously change another are wasting their and everyone else's time.

Sorry that you found this to be upsetting._


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Aidan said:


>



_:rofl: Thank you, Aidan!_


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> Those who keep pushing their point believing that this will somehow miraculously change another are wasting their and everyone else's time.


Hmmm :rolffleyes:, I choose to believe otherwise. No positive change ever happened in any area of life by "looking the other way" . 

We can look into any new law or movement in the society for the proof of that - but that is another topic and with much more depth 

And it should be "Dear Santa" LMAO on that photo , I guess LOL


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

I rarely ever actually reply to these threads. Mostly to avoid "taking sides" or causing even MORE drama. 

I did want to say that it's unfortunate a simple question into a breeder’s ethics causes such a stir. I can easily understand both sides and can see why people are upset in each case. The point is nobody wins when arguments like this happen. It only makes it a hostile forum..and I'm afraid that it could even keep knowledgeable people from becoming members if all they see is the drama.

I don't know the first thing about Silken Poodles or their breeding ethics. If I was looking into buying a dog from that breeder..then I would probably really want to know what Jak's post was about.

I know that my dogs are not from some top of the line show-quality breeder. One was a re-home, another was from a lady near Shreveport..I saw she did health testing and that was good enough for me. I just wanted a Standard Poodle pet...and of course Sagan was from an accidental breeding..but it doesn't make me love him any less. He's quite the head turner..and I would be really offended if someone was on here saying negative things about where he came from..because I love him to pieces..he's been happy, healthy and everyone who meets him absolutely falls in love with him. I understand this doesn't make him a top quality show dog..or maybe it doesn't follow the strict ethics of some forum members.. but I’m just too in love with him to care.

I can see why some forum members would be upset and offended by reading negative posts about where their beloved pets came from. So, maybe everyone has something they could change about how they handled things.

Maybe Jak's post could have been informative without turning into a nasty debate...or perhaps questions could have been asked instead of accusations being made..I didn't see the post so I can't really comment on why people were so upset over it.

I do know that I value Jak's opinion on the forum. He is young..but if I had questions about a breeder or their ethics I would feel comfortable sending him a PM with their website and I would take what he says into heavy consideration...because I believe that he is much more knowledgeable in the area than I am.

It's also obvious how much Cherie loves her dogs. They might as well be her own children and you can see that from her posts on facebook..and her regular updates on her dog-family. I don't believe for a second that she would breed her dog if she thought it would cause harm. She is very involved with her dogs and keeps in touch with who her babies end up with. I think that alone at least shows she loves her babies very much and that breeding is much more than just a business to her.

I hope everyone can eventually get along and perhaps just agree to disagree and move on.


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> And it should be "Dear Santa" LMAO on that photo , I guess LOL



I think kitty couldn't wait for Santa to come around once a year and had to put a rush on it! :heh:


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

[*QUOTE=Beach girl;119870]What does "nik" mean in that context?[/QUOTE]*

Beachgirl:

I am not sure if this is the right spelling but when a breeder evaluates their litter they usually say the litter is beautiful and the breeding between the stud and bitch niked (or nicked, whichever).

This means that overall the breeding was successful and produced the desired results.

When one says a breeding did not nik (or nicked) then they mean that they had hoped for much nicer results but didnt get what they had hoped to get .

Many time two fabulous stud and dam can be bred and the breeding would not produce anything spectacular and not even close to the quality of both stud and dam, and then there are dams and sires which are not that great and can in fact produce a spectacular puppy, but when THAT PUPPY is bred as an adult, they say that anytime you want to see what you will be getting out of a litter, look at the grandparents of the stud or bitch you are breeding.

There are breeders who believe in and practice line breeding in the hope of establishing/keeping type, and some adhere to the line breeding equation that the sire's sire (paternal side) should be the dam's grandsire (maternal side) and according to them this will produce most likely the best results and creat and/or maintain type.

Personally I am somewhat leery of line breeding although I would go ahead and do it in future (and have done it in past) only if I know for 100% what is in each dog's lineage in the pedigree and what are the risk involved.

A high COI % or low one is never a guarantee of a healthy or a sick dog.. but you know your chances of getting genetic mishaps are less likely with a low COI%

Forgive the length of this post.. I do have a tendency many a times to be long winded, LOLOL


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Whitepoodles...you are a wealth of information!! Never too long winded for me.
_


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

*Aiden* - I agree with everything you said in your post.

*Whitepoodles* - Your post was very informative to me. I never actually understood what linebreeding really meant, but you clarified that very well.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

spoospirit said:


> _Whitepoodles...you are a wealth of information!! Never too long winded for me.
> _




Spoospirit:

Thank you for the nice comment.

Here I thought by sending this lengthy post in response to BeachGirl's valid question I will somewhat dissipate the heated arguments and back and forth knife jabs which are practiced full force today on this specific thread. 

It seems that the temperance is escalating with each post and quite frankly I have just about had it.. I joined this forum to learn and to share knowledge and I am so tired of witnessing this unnecessary "SECT FIGHTING" between two SECTS and yes I would consider it sects because it is so intense it is like two groups of a different religion or political views combating in public.

Honestly the fights that are personal and between two groups on this forum have no place to be staged here especially when others are not involved and can only assume what is going on but not sure 100%..

As a matter of fact I have NO CLUE as to what is trully going on here and why some of you are bickering and fighting....and I really dont care...

As someone here said we have to agree to disagree.. If a breeder chooses to breed their female 9 times it is their business not ours unless we choose that person as OUR breeder than we can comment and get involved in their breeding ethics etc... but if one is not going to use that breeder nor buy a puppy from them, why would they have to go in so much depth about them and their breeding practices.

We all know that when a breeder bred for so many years they are more or less SET IN THEIR WAYS and no matter what you, me or anyone would say, suggest, preach will fall on deaf ears because that breeder believes in what they are doing and their system works for them.. so who are we to try and change their modus operandi and breeding practices ???

This is what I meant by there is no reason to beat a dead horse as spoospirit said, the horse is dead and it is starting to stink, honestl, this has GOT TO STOP.
I guess LOL I was not successful in doing so, but I do appreciate the fact you noticed that there is an instrumental post among all the other trully unnecessary back to high school arguments. 

Really guys, we are adults.. why are we riveting back to adolescence???


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks for the explanation of "nik." Never had heard that phrase before.

I did look for a low COI when I was evaluating different breeders in my most recent puppy search (and ended up with Casey). His COI is below 5% to the 10th generation, and 4 of the top 5 contributors to his pedigree are AM CH., so I felt that was a strong background.

There were others that probably would have been equally good in that respect, so I'm not saying it was the reason I bought him; it was just something that I was looking for among other qualities, and was glad to see the numbers on him.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Beachgirl:
Your boy's COI % is certainly on the very low side. My litter out of Lola and Cole is circa 1.04% which is good and somewhat re assuring (lets hope)

Anything below 10-11 is ok with me.. preferably lower than 8-9 but good all the same.
You have done your homework and followed through.


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## Administrator (Sep 16, 2009)

Holy long read. Here are some things I want to address:

1. The original thread was removed because content was posted here that was lifted from another site. The person from that site contacted us and we respected his/her wishes as we have always done whenever someone asks us to remove content about them that is copied from their site (among other things). We can all sit here and talk about the legality of copyright infringements but the bottom line is that if someone were to take you to court and dispute it, would you want to even go through with the hassle and the court costs over something so minor?

As for the issue about PMs being posted, that is NOT allowed and I have spoken to the party in this situation and she will deal with the repercussions. I will also update the rules to include this point. Did I miss anything else?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Dear Poodleadm - thanks for explaining situation and clarifying what and why actually happened. 

Also, thanks for announcing the rule regarding PMs - it was quiet confusing to many members.

I can not say that I am happy about random removal of the threads and content on the "complaint" bases, but at least now we know that it is how it is done and can act and participate accordingly. 

Best regards


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## Rockporters (Jan 14, 2010)

I haven't been following for the last day or so. Wow, I have completely lost track! 

Thank you for the explanation, poodleadm. Hopefully the private pm's that were posted will be appropriately deleted/removed from public view. As for the photos, it would be nice if it were a consistent rule, instead of one only enforced here and there or when convenient. Thanks again!


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## Administrator (Sep 16, 2009)

Rockporters said:


> As for the photos, it would be nice if it were a consistent rule, instead of one only enforced here and there or when convenient. Thanks again!


I want to clarify again that moving this thread was not a matter of convenience or a one off thing. Anytime we are made aware of material that is posted here that did NOT originate on PF, and the owners of said content wishes for it to be removed, we will comply with it.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Yung, I want to make sure I understand the rule correctly so that I don't inadvertently break it. We are allowed (at our own risk, of course) to take a photo from a web site and discuss it (good or bad) until there is a complaint from the owner; and, then it will be removed?

Would it be better for a poster to create a link to the photo or page? Or will this also have the same result when there is a complaint from the owner? 

Does this line of thinking also apply to threads about specific breeders who are named? Such as...I would not deal with Wispynook Poodles because blah, blah, blah.... in that it could be considered libelous? 

Sorry. This is always very confusing for me.

You, of course, are correct. No matter how the infringement laws are interpreted, it certainly is not worth the legal fees involved to take a chance on it.
_


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

[*QUOTE=spoospirit;120151]
Would it be better for a poster to create a link to the photo or page? Or will this also have the same result when there is a complaint from the owner? *_

Spoospirit:

I think this makes sense.. Websites are for public viewing so if you creat a link on a post on PF and it takes you to the site, you are not overstepping any legal boundries.

If you take a photo (uniquely) out of any website without permission of the owner or webmaster than yes, you can be sued.. but not if you creat a link.
Creating a link is legal and not considered overstepping any boundries_


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