# Puppy Leaking Journey



## BrooklynBonnie (Jan 16, 2015)

Well, we've had some issues with Mochi since pretty much the beginning, but didn't think too much of them until they didn't go away but got worse as she grew.

First time I wrote about it was on this thread Puppy peeing in sleep but otherwise fine


Then more recently we had a weird incident that scared me because a drop of rust colored liquid was left behind when she got off me one day Heat Already???!!!

So after having a urinalysis a while ago bring up nothing much even when she was exhibiting signs of a UTI (those signs went away soon after finishing antibiotics), bloodwork turn up nothing wrong with her kidney functions, and two failed attempts at getting urine for a urine culture, we finally were able to do a urine culture last week. I got the results today - negative for anything. :frown: Happy 5 months pup 

As the vet said a while ago, if the urine culture comes back negative, the next step is an ultrasound so see what we can see. So I'm now waiting for a call back from the vet to let me know when the ultrasound can be scheduled. I had been researching the problem for a while and as I told my husband, my money is now on ectopic ureter being behind it. Which is sad if it is, because it seems like it can be a genetic problem. I will be telling the breeder regardless of the outcome, but was hoping Pella, another PF user who has Mochi's litter-mate Lena was still around. I remember she said Lena was having trouble with housebreaking and I thought it might be related. No response to PMs but I'll keep trying.

And I'll keep updating with what happens on here.

Thank heavens I got Mochi insurance from day one! :adore:


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

So sorry that you are having these issues, but yay for Petplan! 
If she has that issue, is there a surgical fix for it?


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## BrooklynBonnie (Jan 16, 2015)

Yes, surgery exists, but I find conflicting information on how successful it can be. Here's a link to the first place I read about ectopic ureters: Ectopic Ureters

This page describes some different remedy options, with one being much more successful than the others.

I don't really understand why the older surgery methods would be less successful unless the surgeon was not that great OR the dog had other problems affecting the results, like weak bladder control. 

Thankfully, I think Mochi has good bladder control for now (afraid she may get so many infections that it affects her muscles) and is able to hold her pee for hours and let us know when she needs to go out. Also, her leaking is sporadic so I would think if ectopic ureter is the culprit, she only has one ureter out of place, and only leaks when urine is send down that one. Fingers crossed!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Well IF she does have the issue, I would strongly recommend that you go to Jane Kovosky, she is the best Veterinary Surgeon in NY, I would not trust my girls to anyone else, and the more complicated the procedure, the more you need her!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Thank you so much for keeping us updated, as we all can learn from others experiences. I hope Mochi's problem get solved simply and quickly!!! Let us know what happens!!!!
Hugs to you for being such a good Mommy!!!!!


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## BrooklynBonnie (Jan 16, 2015)

*Fyi*

We have an appointment at a veterinary emergency and referral group for Friday (tomorrow). It's at 11am, for a consultation and ultrasound. Will update afterwards.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Fingers crossed you get some good news


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Best wishes for you both!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Fingers crossed for you!
And to get the most out of Petplan, get any blood work, X-rays, and meds needed done at your regular Vet so that it will be covered at 100 percent, rather than the 80 percent that specialists are covered at. I am sure that you have already met you deductible for the issue with the regular Vet, just make sure to to note that it is a "continuation" and not a new claim on the form or in the app.


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## BrooklynBonnie (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks for the heads-up Tiny Poodles! I'll keep this in mind for sure. Now I wonder if I could have got the ultrasound covered if we'd been able to schedule it for a day "they come by" to my normal vet's office. Or if they would have had me pay the 3rd party that "comes by" anyway and it still wouldn't be 100% covered? Hmm.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

BrooklynBonnie said:


> Thanks for the heads-up Tiny Poodles! I'll keep this in mind for sure. Now I wonder if I could have got the ultrasound covered if we'd been able to schedule it for a day "they come by" to my normal vet's office. Or if they would have had me pay the 3rd party that "comes by" anyway and it still wouldn't be 100% covered? Hmm.



I am pretty sure it would be covered as long as it was done at the primary vet, but with the cardiologist we felt it was better to have her do it, and evaluate it real time instead of just getting pictures, you know? But really with just paying for the visit, and the ultrasound at the speciality hospital, and getting everything else at the regular Vet, the 80% only worked out to about an extra 100 bucks out of pocket, not a big deal. Not that it matters, but on the day that she passed it was considered "life saving" so it was covered at 100 percent. If only it had been life saving :-(


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## BrooklynBonnie (Jan 16, 2015)

*Update 1*

So we had the ultrasound and consultation today. Man that was pricey but they took my insurance paperwork and said they'd complete it and send it in.

The ultrasound showed everything in the right place and nothing suspicious, so the specialist was happy with that. He said it ruled out some of the possibilities and narrowed down the rest. Although nothing seemed out of place, he said the ultrasound isn't always the clearest picture and Mochi is on the small side which makes things a bit harder to see. So he says he's leaning towards the leaking issue being due to either an unseen physiological issue like hidden ectopic ureter or overproduction of urine, or something that may be fixed with hormones.

So he wants me to observe her for a month, then call him with an update to let him know if the quantity of urine leaked changes and if the frequency changes, then we talk again about options to check in more detail like giving her colored liquid and using a machine to watch where the liquid goes inside her, or using a camera to actually look at where the ureters empty, and also a cat-scan. He thinks there's still a chance just growing more may make it go away so that's also why we're waiting a month and just observing.

So its a little frustrating that we don't have any more idea why it's happening or what we need to do next. Oh well. I guess I'll be back in a month to update this. Thanks all!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

BrooklynBonnie said:


> So we had the ultrasound and consultation today. Man that was pricey but they took my insurance paperwork and said they'd complete it and send it in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the update. We will keep fingers and paws crossed that it is something that will improve with maturation.
Thank goodness you did get the Petplan right away, that does sound quite pricey!
FYI, I found it expedited things if I got the copies of their notes, and sent it in myself with the claim (they don't actually require that the vet sign the form even though there is a place for it.
And now they have an app for IOS all you have to do is take pictures and submit it instantly (but there have been some glitches with the app, so it is best to check that everything went in - I had a problem with the app, and when 
I complained, they had someone call and email me, and now when I submit a claim with the app, I email that same person to make sure everything went through, and magically my claims are getting processed in 24 hours


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I don't know if it would help in your situation, but I have used this product with success for leaky spayed girls. I wonder if the vet would be OK with it. Love this stuff:

Bladder Control Chewables - Nutri-Vet


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## BrooklynBonnie (Jan 16, 2015)

Thank you Tiny Poodles! The vet and assistant, and the front desk person all kept saying that they'll send it in. I said repeatedly that I think I'm supposed to submit it along with other stuff and they were like, "No, we do this all the time. We'll complete everything and send it in for you." I hate that mostly because I want a copy of everything submitted myself. :argh:

BorderKelpie - I have been giving Mochi Natur-Vet Bladder Control chewable supplements for about a month now hoping it would make a difference, but it does not seem to be. I'm still giving it to her though. Two points that may be making it less effective though: 1. I could only find the supplements for "senior" dogs but the staff at the store said it would be fine for puppies too because it was made for more sensitive insides of older dogs, which should be fine for little puppy insides. 2. The dosage starts at 1 pill per day for "dogs up to 50lbs". Well, since Mochi is barely 10lbs now I started giving her 1/4 of a pill each day and now I'm giving her half a pill a day. I have not noticed any change in her leaking so I'm starting to think it makes no difference, but I still give it each morning as she seems to love them...


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

That's a shame, BrooklynBonnie. I was really hoping it would help you like it helps here. 

(BTW, my dad's from Brooklyn. lol LOVE the accent!!!)


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

BrooklynBonnie said:


> Thank you Tiny Poodles! The vet and assistant, and the front desk person all kept saying that they'll send it in. I said repeatedly that I think I'm supposed to submit it along with other stuff and they were like, "No, we do this all the time. We'll complete everything and send it in for you." I hate that mostly because I want a copy of everything submitted myself. :argh:



Probably because they don't want you to see the doctors notes. I find that the case more often than not. I had to go full bitch mode to get the doctors notes when I took Killa to Banfeild. And when we tell people to get doctors notes and bring them in for second opinions they won't give them to the owner but have no problem faxing them to our office. Idk why some offices have such an issue giving owners their pets entire medical chart. I Hope Mochi gets better and you get your claim in a timely manner. If you can, call up Petplan and make sure it all got sent in. Once I give them a call (wether it's for that claim or not) the claim usually gets approved the next day or two.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Probably because they don't want you to see the doctors notes. I find that the case more often than not. I had to go full bitch mode to get the doctors notes when I took Killa to Banfeild. And when we tell people to get doctors notes and bring them in for second opinions they won't give them to the owner but have no problem faxing them to our office. Idk why some offices have such an issue giving owners their pets entire medical chart. I Hope Mochi gets better and you get your claim in a timely manner. If you can, call up Petplan and make sure it all got sent in. Once I give them a call (wether it's for that claim or not) the claim usually gets approved the next day or two.



Oh, after my Vet lied to me so that he could do an exploratory on Taylee, I get copies of everything - If you want to get paid for it, then the one paying gets to see everything, end of story!
And there have been several times where I have caught them writing things that would have made my Petplan claim more difficult, and had them change it on the spot, probably saving me tons of time arguing, and getting the vet to write letters explaining. For example, the time I went in for one thing, and my Vet's note was all about something from months earlier that had resolved, and we had not even discussed during the visit. I was like "hell no, you are going to cost me two deductibles - take that out, that is not why we were here!" There has also been a couple of times where Petplan said "your Vet didn't say that in the notes, and I was able to point them right to where they did say it, and problem solved!" 
Was that Blue Pearl that you went to? Call them and they will email you the report - good to have, no matter what!


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh, after my Vet lied to me so that he could do an exploratory on Taylee, I get copies of everything - If you want to get paid for it, then the one paying gets to see everything, end of story!
> And there have been several times where I have caught them writing things that would have made my Petplan claim more difficult, and had them change it on the spot, probably saving me tons of time arguing, and getting the vet to write letters explaining. For example, the time I went in for one thing, and my Vet's note was all about something from months earlier that had resolved, and we had not even discussed during the visit. I was like "hell no, you are going to cost me two deductibles - take that out, that is not why we were here!" There has also been a couple of times where Petplan said "your Vet didn't say that in the notes, and I was able to point them right to where they did say it, and problem solved!"
> Was that Blue Pearl that you went to? Call them and they will email you the report - good to have, no matter what!



I always wondered what happened if something in the chart got written but was wrong or something. do they just cross it out and Petplan accepts it or do they have to wright a note in the chart explaining why it was changed?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> I always wondered what happened if something in the chart got written but was wrong or something. do they just cross it out and Petplan accepts it or do they have to wright a note in the chart explaining why it was changed?



I had not seen the Vet's notes prior to them being covered by Petplan, and after Teaka had her dental, Petplan told me that the Vet had documented that a specific tooth was already chipped and therefore it would not be covered in the future. Well, she still had the tooth, and it was not chipped, so the Vet wrote a letter to Petplan stating that her previous note was an error, and they accepted that. We could have also given them X-rays and pictures of the intact tooth, but they did not ask, they accepted the Vet's word that their note was a mistake.
But hey, if I can see the notes and avoid all of that back and forth, all the better!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oh, and another time, I had them out in the stroller, and Tangee had an episode which seemed like a heat related collapse, except it was not really very hot, and Teaka standing right next to her was fine. Anyhow I brought her home because it was closer, and held her over the air conditioner, and she recovered, and did not bring her to the Vet until the next day, and she checked out fine. Then a month or two later I took her to the Cardiologist for a check-up, and found that her heart disease had progressed to where she had to start meds, and I put that it was a continuation of the earlier episode, so I shouldn't have a second deductible. Petplan said no, two separate claims because there was no evidence that the first one was due to her heart condition. So my Vet wrote a two sentence letter stating that in her medical opinion the earlier collapse was due to the yet undiscovered progression of her heart disease, and Petplan accepted that and allowed it as a continuation, and sent me the extra $200 that they had deducted from the second claim.
Another reason why I always say Petplan is a very fair company - you might like how another companies policy reads just as well as Petplan's, but I can tell you from numerous personal experiences that Petplan is extremely fair in how they interpret and fulfill their policy, while we just don't know about the others....


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## BrooklynBonnie (Jan 16, 2015)

*Insurance update*

I received two claim denials from PetPlan telling me nothing would be covered because the UTI was a preexisting condition.

I wasn't claiming for a UTI, I was claiming for incontinence. The UTI was tested for repeatedly but the results never confirmed a UTI. Arrgh! I hate insurance companies.

Also the disclaimer mentions they won't cover for any conditions that were showing clinical signs or clinical signs that could be the same as a condition that occurred within 14 days of the policy start, so I guess the fact that she was leaking withing that period but we didn't know why means her incontinence was preexisting? 

I hate dealing with this when all I want is for it to go away. Guess I'll be calling them today then trying to get my vet to write a letter if it seems a possible solution for getting back about $880...:argh:


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

BrooklynBonnie said:


> I received two claim denials from PetPlan telling me nothing would be covered because the UTI was a preexisting condition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Urgh, sorry about that - I was afraid that her symptoms may have begun during the two week waiting period :-(
And yes, I am afraid that I would have to agree, leaking and incontinence are really the same thing, maybe just different degrees of it.
Do you have a contract with the breeder? If not, most states have puppy lemon laws which might entitle you to some compensation for treating a medical condition that a puppy arrived with.


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## BrooklynBonnie (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks Tiny Poodles!

Well, during the 14 day period she was showing signs of UTI which was namely frequent urination (except she couldn't urinate frequently, she was just trying to urinate frequently). That was addressed with meds and cleared up.

On the 17th day of the policy we went in to the vet because we noticed she was leaking in her sleep and often had a wet vulva (incontinence). As far as the vet and the specialist are concerned, this was not/is not a UTI as all tests came back negative for UTI once they started trying to investigate the cause. But of course on the invoice and in notes, UTI is mentioned as a possibility. So, I told PetPlan this, and because I only submitted the claim for invoiced visits from February 17th forward, I am asking the vet to write a letter stating the investigated illness of incontinence was not showing clinical signs before February 14th and is not a UTI either, which is what was showing signs before February 14th but which was resolved.

Confused yet? Argh. Anyway, I hope it will work out.

EDIT: Oh, and no, we don't have a contract with the breeder, and she hasn't responded to either of the emails I've sent her (even when she had sent the AKC papers in the mail and wrote on them that she'd love an update, I emailed with an update and pictures and still no response). I'll have to check into lemon laws (sounds so harsh when considering a little puppy!) but not sure NH of all states would have something like that. LOL!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

BrooklynBonnie said:


> Thanks Tiny Poodles!
> 
> Well, during the 14 day period she was showing signs of UTI which was namely frequent urination (except she couldn't urinate frequently, she was just trying to urinate frequently). That was addressed with meds and cleared up.
> 
> ...



I understand your logic, but it might depend upon what was written in the notes that they already saw. You see, this is one of the reasons that I like to see the notes before they are sent in - so I can ask the vet to explain any ambiguity or correct any mistakes before it is sent. I find it saves a lot of hassle in the long run. 
Just today I was able to write to Petplan and tell them that they got Teaka and Timi mixed up, noting that Timi has a dx of anxiety (and I was able to check that it was Petplan's error, not my Vet, because there was no such mistaken diagnosis in Timi's chart).
And you sure should check those lemon laws - maybe just quoting them to your breeder would be enough to get a response!


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