# Sebaceous Adenitis



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

So because I've gotten Heaven as my first show girl...I've been thinking about health testing down the line (if she does well in the ring) and the SA punch really has me concerned...

I know that most people will wait until after the dog is finished to do the SA punch (and again...hopefully Heaven is! lol), but do some breeders go ahead and breed without having it done if their bitch is still in coat/actively showing at 2?

I know there are some strong opinions of SA and whether or not to do it here on this forum, but I really respect the opinions of people here and I'd love to hear what everyone has to say ^_^


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Dear Keithsomething;

Do not worry about having the SA biopsy done. It is _easy-peasy_! Just costs money.VBG

If you have a *decent* vet the dog feels nothing. Ask the vet you are thinking of using if they have done SA biopsies before. If you can't find a vet who has done it before use one that has some surgery experience.

Some owners are squeamish about the procedure and think that it horrible but I say if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. LOL Really though if you are apprehensive just don't look.

I have had dogs biopsied in show coat and made sure the vet used suture material that was a different colour than the poodles coat. I ask very politely, (haha), for the vet to leave the strands of suture material about 3 inches longer than the coat. Easier to find the sites this way.

I take some hydrogen peroxide to the site about 6 hours later and then leave it alone except for looking. I take the stitches out after 7 days. Usually one stitch per biopsy - and two biopsies per dog. Never had a problem and when I had a followed the VIP website for how often to do the testing. On bitches *within* one year of *breeding* up to 5 years of age and then every second year. On dogs *every* year of breeding up to 5 years of age and then ever other year.

My vet had not done this testing before and is now a pro. 

The good thing for me is I use Dr. B. Wilcox at the University of Guelph as my pathologist and I really trust his judgement. He spoke at our local kennel club meeting and was very open at poodle health risks.

SA is definately a disease that can leave a poodle looking normal while testing positive. There is absolutely no reason not to do this test as recommended by the Versatility in Poodles website. Some breeders say well it is a test that only tells the results on one specific day and not a worthwhile test but that is all CERF is and most breeders do eyes.

Good to hear you are taking health testing seriously!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Well, I resisted the idea of doing the skin punch. It is nasty and can be uncomfortable. And when it is over, the dogs looks pretty moth eaten because the areas are shaved right down. On coloured Poodles when the coat grows back in, it will be the colour they were as pups. So, when Thinker was done, he had three jet black polka dots between his withers. A silver beige will be dark brown polka dots. A faded red will be deep red polka dots. Betty and Jenny have not changed colour much from when they were puppies, as a matter of fact they are darker than when they were little, so that was not an issue for us. The best time to do it, in my opinion, is while they are anesthetized for their hip x-ray. When Holly was done the first time, they did three punches and all three sites became infected and she then had to go on a course of antibiotics.

I was strongly persuaded by two breeders to do it, breeders I respected, who had either produced S/A or had an equivocal dog. I have never been as relieved as I was when we got the results back and both girls are clear. If anyone has ever been around a dog with S/A they would understand why this test is so important. They look horrible with their patchy clumps of hair, they are uber greasy and they stink. Not a pleasant illness for anyone to live with. My Mom had a wire hired terrier with it. She was in a constant state of itchiness, rubbing her back on anything and everything. I think it would be a crime to produce it when it is avoidable. I realize not every dog we breed to will be done, but I feel better just knowing the girls are and we at least have some knowledge of what is going on regarding S/A.

It is one of the most expensive tests. You have the vet's fee for the punch and the stitches, plus the lab fee to do the analysis, plus the posting fee for OFA. I think all told it was in the $200 neighbourhood.

We will not do it every year. The girls would just be completely back to normal and it would be time to start again. We will however do it every second year and look forward to the day when a simple DNA cheek swab tells the tale. I think we are going to see an increase in S/A because so many breeders are resistant to doing it.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Hi just thought I would add my two cents to what the others have very helpfully posted.

My experience with the SA punch was three punches. The vet froze the area first and my spoos did not even flinch when the punches were done. I removed the stitches myself and there was no problems with the sites at all.

BUT....please make sure that Heaven does not exercise or run heavily while the punctures are healing. One of my girls developed a seroma (a pocket of blood coloured liquid) at one of the incision sites because she pulled at the site while running. The Seroma was worst then the punches. I have seen show dogs have the punch, as Rayah stated, and they don't hinder their coat.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Thanks everyone ^_^
Heaven is FAR off from getting her testing done, but I like to plan things...super far in advance XD and this was one of my major concerns!

And Rayah I take testing very seriously! I'm not 100% sure about breeding at this point...BUT I know that any dog I do decide to breed will be completely health tested!! =]]


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

keithsomething said:


> thanks everyone ^_^
> heaven is far off from getting her testing done, but i like to plan things...super far in advance xd and this was one of my major concerns!
> 
> And rayah i take testing very seriously! I'm not 100% sure about breeding at this point...but i know that any dog i do decide to breed will be completely health tested!! =]]


ditto!!!!!!


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

I totally agree that doing all the testing possible to insure healthy pups is a huge must. Betty Jo and Jenny did look moth eaten after their testing which drove me a bit crazy especially with Betty Jo as it was the first full groom I'd ever done on her. However I've touched her up now and she looks much better. They did three punches on her. It was great to be able to do it they were knocked out from having their hips done. 

It is a very expensive test though only second to having their hips done! The SA testing that I just had done on Betty Jo ended up costing $263.45 (including tax) while the hips were $314.04 (including tax). Not that different in price. You have to realize that the SA test price covers the punch, the lab fees and posting on OFA as well as tax. Actually the lab charged more then the vet did.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Trillium said:


> I totally agree that doing all the testing possible to insure healthy pups is a huge must. Betty Jo and Jenny did look moth eaten after their testing which drove me a bit crazy especially with Betty Jo as it was the first full groom I'd ever done on her. However I've touched her up now and she looks much better. They did three punches on her. It was great to be able to do it they were knocked out from having their hips done.
> 
> It is a very expensive test though only second to having their hips done! The SA testing that I just had done on Betty Jo ended up costing $263.45 (including tax) while the hips were $314.04 (including tax). Not that different in price. You have to realize that the SA test price covers the punch, the lab fees and posting on OFA as well as tax. Actually the lab charged more then the vet did.


I am so happy we did it, and so happy we got the result we did. I think it would be entirely irresponsible not to. I also feel that it is extremely hypocritical to harp about testing to others if you aren't going to put your money where your mouth is.

Being a breeder of reds I think it is of the utmost importance to do every bit of testing available to us because of the lack of health testing in the backgrounds in most all of the reds being or about to be bred. We should all endeavour to change that and begin a new trend.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Thanks everyone for weighing in with your experiences!! I know its FAR off in the future and they may have a dna swab by then, but like I said I like to plan ahead!

And I agree Cherie, its very hypocritical to preach about health testing and then not follow through with it (or understand it)...I wish more breeders would take the time and money to just have it done


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> Thanks everyone for weighing in with your experiences!! I know its FAR off in the future and they may have a dna swab by then, but like I said I like to plan ahead!
> 
> And I agree Cherie, its very hypocritical to preach about health testing and then not follow through with it (or understand it)...I wish more breeders would take the time and money to just have it done


Oh my goodness, I do hope the DNA test is not far off! It would be remarkable to do one cheek swab in the lifetime of a dog, rather than skin punches every year or other year.


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

If you could arrange for a dna test before their next skin punches are due Betty Jo and Jenny would kiss your feet forever. (Mind you they be happy to do that irregardless lol) I'd sure be happy to see a dna test too. It would be so much easier and better.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Trillium said:


> If you could arrange for a dna test before their next skin punches are dure Betty Jo and Jenny would kiss your feet forever. (Mind you they be happy to do that irregardless lol) I'd sure be happy to see a dna test too. It would be so much easier and better.


I wonder then what excuse breeders will use to not do the test?


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Wow, what horrible prices for SA testing. I pay $160.00 for the test and this includes the vet exam and fees for the lab. To register with OFA is an extra 10 or 15 dollars.

The poodle club of canada used to do health testing at Nancy Tarzwells (sp) and it was $60.00.

It pays to phone around for prices. VBG


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> Wow, what horrible prices for SA testing. I pay $160.00 for the test and this includes the vet exam and fees for the lab. To register with OFA is an extra 10 or 15 dollars.
> 
> The poodle club of canada used to do health testing at Nancy Tarzwells (sp) and it was $60.00.
> 
> It pays to phone around for prices. VBG


Is the $160 in Owen Sound? Where is Nancy Tarzwells? We did shop around. The vet who tested the girls gave us incredible prices on everything (we thought). Clearly not so good on the S/A! Elora used to have a Poodle testing day at the clinic and the rates were pretty good. I wonder if they still do that? Do you know, we were quoted as much as $600 for the hip xray?!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I just wanted to reiterate how important it is to do the S/A test on breeding dogs. You can have a lovely dog who shows no symptoms whatsoever who could test positive. Or you could have a dog who tests equivocal or sub-clinical, which would warrant further investigation before breeding it. This test is one that is highly recommended my OFA to be done. It is also one of the breed specific tests recommended by the breed clubs which will help you get a CHIC number. PLEASE...if you breed or plan to breed, do this test. It is not fair to your buyers not to! They will love their dog, but it could turn into a bald, stinky, greasy MESS. They need the protection of breeders who have the integrity to do everything they can to ensure this will not happen. I cannot believe the number of breeders who poo-poo this test or don't want to do it because it is invasive. If it was not necessary, OFA and the breed clubs would not have identified it as one of the tests that SHOULD be done.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Arreau - are you testing your breeding dogs every year as it is recommended?

As a breeder what are your recommendations on this yearly testingt?

Would you say if a breeder only does this once before breeding being unethical? 

My understanding is it can be a crap shoot - but better to be safe then sorry. There are many tests humans have to under go that are not very comfortable but can minimize the potential of the said disease. :afraid:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Olie said:


> Arreau - are you testing your breeding dogs every year as it is recommended?
> 
> As a breeder what are your recommendations on this yearly testingt?
> 
> ...


We will be doing the skin punch every second year. It is a gross test, but we will get pretty good idea of what is going on doing it every other year. Should we see anything that looks remotely suspicious, we would do it every year for sure. I think it is unwise to not do it, especially when OFFA and the breed clubs see it as a definate breed specific issue. I also find it to be incredibly hypocritical of breeders to harp at other breeders about things, but then do whatever they want.

These are the tests required to get a CHIC number and the breed specific tests recommended for Standard Poodles. Canine Health Information Center: CHIC Information

I feel it is a fairly definitive test. Testing for Addisons in a breeding dog, in my opinion, is a waste of time. They either have it or they don't. But with the S/A biopsies you can see if a dog has it, whether or not it has symptoms, and also find out if it is equivocal or sub clinical. You can research a pedigree to look for things, but we have discussed on this forum many times in the past how many times things go unreported because A: a lot of puppies end up in pet homes and most of these folks do not even know PHR and other boards like it even exist and B: a lot of breeders will not report things lest their reputation become tainted. So, research is not enough.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Testing is the name of the game. I have been testing dogs for over 20 years now. I test for hips, (OFA, or Penn Hipp) CERF for eyes, SA, Thyroid (by OFA guidelines) vWD by the DNA swab, run a kidney panel and do the ATCH test for Addison's, and starting the NE by DNA test.

I run all these tests because we cannot be careful enough. I run the Addison's test because dogs as well as people could have Addison's disease and still be a-systematic not showing systems up front. Not common but may occur.

I have found that the red and apricot breeders I have been dealing with over the years test extensively,,,,,, we have to! LOL

I have tested very many standard poodles in full show coat. If you vet is good at it, it does NOT need to leave your dogs coat looking moth eaten or in bad shape. I band my guys hair and have the part where I want the vet to take the biopsies. We usually have three biopsies taken. The biopsy is about the size of any eraser head, normally requiring only one stitch, if the vet is good, the color normally does not alter from the surrounding coat.

Keith: I am going to take a very strong guess that we will not be seeing a DNA test for SA in a very long time, if ever. SA is a poly-genetic disease and will be hard to find the gene responsible for the disease. The DNA tests we have available are for genetic problems that are simple recessive. Some people also state environmental reasons to "trigger" SA. One suspected trigger is over vaccination. Stress may also be another culprit.
Terry


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

farleysd said:


> Testing is the name of the game. I have been testing dogs for over 20 years now. I test for hips, (OFA, or Penn Hipp) CERF for eyes, SA, Thyroid (by OFA guidelines) vWD by the DNA swab, run a kidney panel and do the ATCH test for Addison's, and starting the NE by DNA test.
> 
> I run all these tests because we cannot be careful enough. I run the Addison's test because dogs as well as people could have Addison's disease and still be a-systematic not showing systems up front. Not common but may occur.
> 
> ...


I am glad to see another breeder doing all of the recommended testing. We are taking our lead from Harmony Mountain Poodles, who test to the nth degree. Another nice thing about doing the vWd, NE and DM tests, is if both parents are clear of these things, the kids are "Clear by parentage" and then you don't have to test the kids you keep to breed for these things. I know you know this Terry, but not everyone here would.


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