# Raw Diet Questions



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am not a germophobe, but I do have a dog (Peeves) who insists on taking food out of his bowl and putting it on the floor then picking it up again to eat it, so no raw at our house. I home cook because each of my dogs has tested as sensitive or intolerant to a number of different food items and when I tried to find a commercial food that would meet the needs of the three of them I found there wasn't anything suitable.

Aside from that issue I do not believe dogs need to eat raw food to be properly nourished. They are dogs, not wolves. They have coevolved with us from the wolf type ancestors to be domesticated animals and have probably eaten our cooked leftovers for as long as we have cooked. Additionally there are some studies that suggest there is a real risk of pathogens passing through a raw fed dog back to his owners and I am not going to subject myself or family to such a risk. Here is a link to a piece on this subject from the US Food and Drug Administration about the public health risks of raw diets. https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/AnimalHealthLiteracy/ucm373757.htm


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## AmyJane (Oct 16, 2017)

I'm so glad to hear that you think it would be ok to cook food. I've read a lot of your posts and you seem extremely knowledgeable. I've heard it said that getting the raw food yourself from the grocery store/craigslist, rather than store bought raw pet foods are less likely to be contaminated, but I still don't feel like it's very safe.

And I think you've replied to every one of my question threads, so thanks a lot for that. I appreciate it.

Do you think I'd be morally reprehensible for just buying Blue? Dr. Dunbar's puppy training stuff relies a lot on stuffed kongs, and kibble for training, so I think I'll be using it for that at least.

Do you make a lot of different meals for your dogs, or do you have one nutritionally complete meal that is a staple for your Peeves and Lily?

Oh, and Dr. Dunbar says that you shouldn't buy your dog a food bowl until she's already properly trained and mannered. Do you have an idea of how old the dog will be when a food bowl becomes ok? (Assuming you've stuck to Dr. Dunbar's puppy milestone schedule?)


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

I am following this thread as I hope to hear the answers to some of your questions as well. I will tell you a bit about what we are doing right now though. I am a total newbie at raw feeding and am worried all the time that I am doing something majorly wrong. Which is why I hope you get lots of answers to this.

One thing I will suggest to you is that they make a frozen raw that is available at specialty pet stores. Our local store has Stella and chewys, primal, Tucker's, small batch, and probably others. These can be purchased in "chub" form or in patty or nugget form. They have all different kinds of meat (chicken, beef, pork, bison, lamb, duck, rabbit, etc) and this is a really great way to feed if you are hesitant to mix it all up yourself. The chubs are cheaper than the patties, but the drawback to these meals is that they are quite expensive. However since you are getting a toy pup, I think it would be affordable to feed a toy these things for their whole life and not have it be too much of a financial burden. If you were to do these I would suggest getting the nuggets since toys don't each very much - I think each nugget weighs 1-2 oz and just calculate out how many nuggets to give at each meal. Or do the chubs and just let them thaw slightly and then cut them (with wrapper still on) into small portions and place in ziplock bags and put back in the freezer. You can rotate varieties all the time so your dog is getting a wide range of protein types.

Now I will tell you what my dog has been getting. I started off doing the chubs but we have hit some hard times financially and are trying to save as much money as we can right now (she is a standard puppy, she eats over 1 lb per day) our breeder weans them onto raw and then adds in a high quality kibble meal at night, so we have kept the kibble meal going for her dinner. I have a big bag of the good kibble but when it is gone I think I will do strictly raw. Maybe by that time she will be doing 2 meals a day anyways. So she eats two raw meals per day right now in the morning and afternoon. I have been purchasing drumsticks, wings, chicken livers, gizzards, and hearts, and feet. I use a kitchen scale and portion them accordingly into ziplock bags. The only thing I am worried about right now is that she may be eating too much bone. So I need to start adding more muscle meat. But right now I put into half of the bags 1 drumstick, 1-2 feet, 1 oz liver, 1 oz gizzards, a heart, and a tablespoon of canned pumpkin, oh and a teaspoon of dried kelp. It is easy when you set up a little assembly line. Then in the other half of the bags I put just drumsticks or just muscle meat. So she would get one bag with all of the organs and pumpkin per day and one bag of just meat. Unfortunately she is getting mostly chicken these days since that is what is cheapest. If I see other meat on sale I will buy it. But I batched all of this out the other day and it ended up being about 16+ lbs of food for $30 instead of if I had done the frozen raw which is $20-$30 for 5-6 lbs of food. 

Sorry this is so long. If you do the frozen raw, there is bone and organ meat ground in, but the only thing I feel they "miss" out on is having the chance to chew on the bones which is great for their teeth. So even when I did the frozen raw that was just for one meal and the second raw meal was just some wings or a drumstick. For a toy, a wing would be great for one of the meals. (Obviously you have to watch them when they are first learning to eat raw so they don't try to swallow it without crunching it up, they could choke.)

As far as the germophobe stuff, I am very similar. I may eventually switch the home cooked because it is so much cleaner. However I must say that the ease of not having to cook the food is very nice. Cooking would just be an extra (time consuming) step for me at this point. I originally freaked out because I was feeding my pup in her pen and she was taking the meat out and chewing it all over. Mostly the ones with bones. She wouldn't do it with the frozen raw. So now I feed her outside on the grass and I am not as worried about germs being on the grass as I am on the floor inside. I don't want to be washing the kitchen floor every single day. The frozen raw was very clean to feed. It is mostly the drumsticks that still worry me a bit because she uses her paws to help eat them. Anyways, hope this helped in some small way. And hopefully more will chime in.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

We used to feed Blue and they mostly did just fine with it. We had some health thing crop up that made it worthwhile to think about changing their food. BF still longs for the scoop some kibble in the bowl days though.

I make one staple meal and feed that consistently. I don't think they get bored with it at all and if I stick to the recipe I know their nutrition is complete. The basic key ingredients are chicken meat, chicken livers, whole grain pasta, ground up fresh spinach and kale, canned pumpkin and some supplements (dried sea kelp powder, bone meal, krill oil, veg oil, vit D, ester C, coQ10 and some saw palmetto supps for my older boy). I do massive cooking once a month or so and freeze the meats, livers and pasta. Everything else is made up for the meal. They are thriving on this plan and although it is harder than opening a bag I feel I am saving on vet expenses for the problems they each were having.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Oh and I want to clarify, the frozen raw that I was mentioning is really only available at specialty natural pet stores. It is not the fresh pet stuff you can get at Walmart or whatever. This frozen raw is grain free, 100% raw meat, bones and organs ground together in the correct ratios. In the case of Tucker's they add pumpkin to theirs. And I think primal adds a bit of vegetation. If you have a pet store nearby that might carry stuff like this I would encourage you to go and take a look!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Dogs live long and healthy lives on raw, on cooked, on kibble, on canned, on combinations and permutations of these. I cook for mine because Sophy is very, very fussy about kibble once it is the least bit stale (ancient bits from under the display stands in Pets at Home are different, it seems), and when I worked out how much the ingredients in the good quality trays I was buying cost the savings through cooking for them myself were immense. I would choose a food that is recognised as being good quality, that your dog likes and you can afford. Raw is difficult for anyone with a germ phobia, although it is actually very safe if you follow basic hygiene standards. Dogs get into far worse things than raw meat...!


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## AmyJane (Oct 16, 2017)

Eh, the only pet stores I have near me are Petsmart and Petco 

And thanks for contributing, Chinchillafuzzy. Hopefully we can both learn a lot from what comes up here.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

It is very easy to feed raw any still be 'clean' I am immunosuppressed due to illness and the drugs I have to take, but my girl is fed a 50-50 diet of raw and kibble. I have taught her to eat her raw on a towel that when she is done, can then be tossed in the wash.
I also buy dehydrated type foods, canned foods, and even home made foods where the recipe is meant for humans and dogs ( I have a dog/human cookbook!)
The only time I actually have to handle raw meat is when I bring it home and repackage it into individual baggies after weighing ......which for Molly, a daily amount of totally raw, would be about 4.25 ozs a day, but since only 1 of her meals is raw, she is fed approx only 2.5 ozs of raw in the morning, and then I put a measured amount of kibble in her bowl, as she is free fed and does well, because she is a grazer and self regulates nicely. I rotate the type of raw or protein thruout he week One day it may be a chicken leg, then the next day a dehydrated type commercial food, then the day after that a canned food portion and then again after that a lamb or goat neck meaty bone.....but she always has that bit of kibble and I do also use a vitamin supplement a couple of times week to round it out lol! It seems to work well for her.....she is healthy and has clean teeth (thanks to those bones!) and she has never been to the Vet except for spaying, and her
rabies shot! She will be 6 in Feb!

P.S. Google: Top 10 Healthiest Homemade Dog Food Recipes-DogsAholic


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## DCspoo (Apr 19, 2015)

So I feed only raw to Sheamus. His base is meaty chicken backs and then organ and liver (from various animals) is added in. I have everything frozen and then piece together what's he's having. For example I bought a whole cow liver, cubed it and froze it in little portion size baggies. He also gets a variety of other things like turkey necks, cuts of beef, rabbit, etc. 

In terms of the germs, this was huge for me since I have a toddler but research shows dog saliva kills anything I'd worry about. I do ensure sheamus' face and paws are always shaved. Any honestly the bone helps keep his teeth super clean.

Additionally he eats out in the backyard. We have a huge overhang, and it's rare in our location that it rains all day so if there are storms I find the break in them and feed him. He also likes to take his bone portion and eat it away from his bowl so the backyard is best.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I checked three boxes. I feed a meal of raw and a meal of kibble with homemade toppings. I usually feed him 3-4 chicken necks for the raw, which I order by the case from a local grocery store. I use tongs, a round metal platter and spread out two white towels. I do it for the dental and small stool benefits. He really enjoys his raw and it’s gone in an instant.


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## Bevvie (Jun 17, 2017)

Thanks for your thread AmyJane. 

There is so much information out there that we often feel confused and overwhelmed. I keep looking for non-commercial, solid data that will help in this conundrum to identify the best type of food/diet for our dogs. In the meantime, I still belong to the “confused and overwhelmed” club – of which I’m sure there are many of us. 

Like lily and fjm, I do home cooked dog meals. Copper has no allergies or reactions to deal with so I do have the freedom to let his nose and appetite guide the way. His nose has told me that he doesn’t liked overcooked meat. He likes a bit of fat in his servings – I used to strip all fat before cooking until Copper put his paw down about it. He’s good with all sorts of fruits and vegetables and he likes kibble. Adores organ meat, sardines and goes into whining spasms when salmon is fresh off the BBQ. He’s not a big fan of canned dog food – but will eat it if it has fish ... otherwise I will just see his saucy butt trotting away from the food dish.

Home cooking really isn’t that much of a chore. It only takes a bit of time to cook and package it for the freezer. If I’m cooking a meat for dinner, a certain portion of that will go to Copper before adding seasonings. 

As for raw, I’m very much on the fence. Some people swear by it, totally laying claim to the wolf gene argument. However, I agree with lily that dogs are not wolves. New Zealand sells raw in the butcher sections of their grocery stores. But a lot of their dogs are working dogs used for sheep herding so is this a diet more beneficial for active working dogs? What do they know that we don’t? I also wonder what type of regulations are imposed in New Zealand for raw dog food quality. A friend of mine works for a raw food manufacturer in western Canada and swears by the integrity of the process. But, he’s an engineer – not a biologist.

The link that lily provided lends a clue to me that raw is not exactly proven to be pathogen free. We have seen cases where meat for human consumption had to be recalled and destroyed because of detected pathogens, the most recent one was caused from the tines of the tenderizing forks not being sterilized sufficiently. Since we cook our meat, most of these pathogens are destroyed by the cooking process. There was a claim that flash-freezing kills the pathogens – but I haven’t seen any testing data that backs that up and based on the results of the fda link, it would seem that it doesn’t. Alternatively, does a dog’s digestive system deal with pathogens differently than humans – making the meat more safe for them to eat than it would a human?

It seems that dogs have lived with all sorts of diets. Raw has only recently come into vogue and it may come to pass that it, or a derivation of it, may be the best. At least with raw, unlike processed dog food, you know what’s in the food and that the bulk of it is not filler. 

If there’s any certainty of advice that can be given here, I certainly am not qualified to do it. The only advice I would offer is to let your beautiful little white poodle have a vote on the potential choices too.


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## AmyJane (Oct 16, 2017)

Thanks for echoing my feelings, Bevvie. It's good to know I'm not the only one floundering here, trying to figure everything out.

I'm starting to wish I had decided to become a nutritionist instead of a dentist. lol.

And I LOVE your idea of letting my hypothetical puppy choose what kinds of food she likes. Lily was nice enough to share her home cooked food recipe with me, and I was all set to just go ahead and make tiny modifications to it (removing supplements that her older dogs need that my puppy wouldn't) and just call it good, but now that you've mentioned it, I'd like very much to let my little puppy choose what she likes.

My only issue here is that I still need to make sure she ends up with a balanced and complete diet, and I don't know what that is exactly. (If I ate nothing but what I liked I'd weigh 1000 lbs and be surrounded by bags of empty potato chips).

I wish I had a list somewhere that said an X lb toy poodle puppy needs: (and another list for an adult toy poodle weighing X lbs)

XXXX Kcals/day
XX grams of protein
XX grams of fat
X grams of carbs
X amount of all the different vitamins and minerals

And another list that had those values for ingredients something like:

Chicken liver: XX kcal/gram, XX grams protein/gram liver, XX grams fat/gram liver, etc.
Spinach: X kcal/gram, X grams carbs/gram leaves, XX mg iron/gram leaves, etc.

This way I could see what she likes, and then see what proportions I'd need to mix it in to make sure she's being properly nourished.

Honestly, lists like these probably exist on the internet, I just need to look harder.  It's surprisingly difficult to find a nutritional guideline for a specific breed of dog though. I'm finding a lot of general stuff. Do all dogs need the same things in the same proportions? I find it kind of hard to believe...

Would anyone be willing to "check" my recipe once I've come up with it and point out if it's actually ok to feed or not?


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## Bevvie (Jun 17, 2017)

fjm said:


> Dogs live long and healthy lives on raw, on cooked, on kibble, on canned, on combinations and permutations of these.


For what it's worth, I think fjm got it right on the above statement.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

AmyJane said:


> I wish I had a list somewhere that said an X lb toy poodle puppy needs: (and another list for an adult toy poodle weighing X
> ?



Hi AmyJane, there’s a computer program called pet diet designer that I use ( it was recommended by other member here) that helps you build balanced meals. You put in all the details of your dog and it adjusts for their age/breed/life stage/activity level etc. it’s only $20, definitely worth it!


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## AmyJane (Oct 16, 2017)

That sounds awesome! Yeah, for $20 I’m in. I’ll buy it tonight.


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## Païllâsse (Jun 14, 2016)

Personally, I use premium grain free kibbles, but in order to make my dog happy and to help him to have lots of vitamins and minerals, I usually add fresh fruits and vegetables in the process, like Apple, brocoli, local cranberries and blueberries, pumpkins kiwis etc, and a bit of fresh premium beef meat, a very fresh raw egg yolk or fresh organ like a piece of cow heart.. it is a bit disgusting for our modern concept of what is considered to be meat, but this is fresh, full of goodness, very cheap, bought in a human food shop, premium muscle tissue and most of all, the dog loves it. 
And if you really want to get back to the wolf roots of our spoo, keep in mind that in the wild, they always prefer to eat the organs of their prey first. Most of the scientists believe that they get their balance of vitamins and mineral in the stomach of their victims, which is full of berries and grass.
I rather buy fresh organs for my dog, that those horrible ready to eat processed raw meat, that might be nicely labelled, but it is just a mix of all the bad pieces of the animal that no one wants, plus all the dirty organs (kidney and livers of old animals and thus full of toxins), skin and bones. 
It is maybe because I come from a different culture where food is more about pleasure than nutrition stats, but my first motive is to make my dog happy by offering diverse and tasty meals, since for a dog, food is probably one of the main pleasure of life..


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## asuk (Jan 6, 2017)

Like Molly, my pup (almost 6 months old) is on a 50/50 raw and kibble diet.

he gets kibble all day to graze, i find he is really good at regulating himself. with a toy puppy, i'd imagine you need to feed them often as well to avoid hypoglycemia.

he gets raw for dinner, as of now, i give him patties from various protein. they are complete meals. if by any chance i have some meat trimmings minus fat, i add it to his bowl. he way prefers raw. for his teeth, i give him a raw meaty bone (mostly chicken right now) about 2-3 times a week. so far so good.

sometimes when i will cook for him, its usually oily fish and i add some lentils and veggies. nothing special, just what i have in my fridge. its great that he has an "iron" tummy that tolerates all foods that are allowable for a dog.

as for being a germaphobe, i am somewhat one. from day 1, i have trained milo to eat on a mat in the kitchen. mind you a few times, he wants to bring that to his bed to eat but i was right with him that i am able to stop him before he drops it. he used to eat his bones outside but its been really cold so he eats it in the kitchen and i usually give it to him when i am in the kitchen so i can supervise.

his face and paws gets a good rinsing after raw.

his "suit" for when he is eating raw is a baby onesie and i put his ears up in a soft scrunchie. he looks hilarious but he knows when he sees me pulling this get up out, something good is coming. lol


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## Païllâsse (Jun 14, 2016)

Mind the raw chicken bones as they are not only a threat to his throat and stomach, but raw poultry is just a n’est for dangerous salmonella. It is for this reason thst in human consumption, eating rare poultry is forbidden..


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## AmyJane (Oct 16, 2017)

Love the raw outfit, asuk. That is a good idea to keep germs off of his ears and chest.

I see that raw meaty bones are great for keeping teeth clean. Does anybody here actually brush their dogs teeth with a toothbrush? Any thoughts on which method is more effective?


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## Païllâsse (Jun 14, 2016)

AmyJane said:


> Love the raw outfit, asuk. That is a good idea to keep germs off of his ears and chest.
> 
> I see that raw meaty bones are great for keeping teeth clean. Does anybody here actually brush their dogs teeth with a toothbrush? Any thoughts on which method is more effective?


I do brush my spoo’s teeth everyday before going to bed, he loves it. I use special toothpaste made for dogs. 
But the best is indeed bones, although it is difficult to choose the best ones as they need to be big enough to prevent any risk of suffocation, but soft enough to avoid any tooth break.


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## AmyJane (Oct 16, 2017)

I'm a dental assistant, so I'm kind of inclined to just brush my dog's teeth myself. It would let me keep an eye on her oral condition daily, which seems good to me.

I found a vanilla mint toothpaste for dogs on amazon that seems pretty popular. Do you think that would be ok as opposed to a paste that tastes like beef or something? Seems a shame to get the mouth all clean, only for it to smell like food. (I know that's just a human preference though, and the dog's oral health is really what's important here).


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## asuk (Jan 6, 2017)

I admit I don't brush, bones does the job for milo. No bad breath here and pearly white teeth. reading here, some dogs gulp instead of chew, so you have to pick a bone that is an appropriate size for the dog. Milo is what I would say a mild chewer when it comes to toys,but give him bone. He will happily chomp away. I find the bones also helped to wiggle his baby teeth especially the molars/pre molars, he is in the throes of teething now.Uncooked chicken bones are soft and I don't find any ill effect by giving it to milo and he has had bone since he was 8 weeks old. He was also weaned off raw at his breeders. It may not work for everyone but sure do/did for us.


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## AmyJane (Oct 16, 2017)

Oh my gosh! I FINALLY got a puppy food recipe together that works! That was so hard. It took 2 days! That Pet Diet Designer program really makes sure you have perfect proportions of everything. Man is it hard for a puppy though cause you can't have too much Vitamin A, and a lot of the foods that fulfill a lot of other requirements are high in Vitamin A. I feel really accomplished. Hopefully making an adult recipe will be easier.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would go with a meat flavoured toothpaste - mine have loathed anything with mint or similar flavours. If it is something they like, the toothpaste becomes the reward for letting me brush their teeth.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

AmyJane said:


> Oh my gosh! I FINALLY got a puppy food recipe together that works! That was so hard. It took 2 days! That Pet Diet Designer program really makes sure you have perfect proportions of everything. Man is it hard for a puppy though cause you can't have too much Vitamin A, and a lot of the foods that fulfill a lot of other requirements are high in Vitamin A. I feel really accomplished. Hopefully making an adult recipe will be easier.




Good work! It can definitely take a bit of effort. Once you’ve got the recipes sorted though at least it’s easy from there!


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

Lizzy was a picky, picky eater, and I'm not a cook, nor did I feel comfortable with my ability to balance her diet properly on my own, so when I tried Stella & Chewy's and she ate it consistently, I stuck with it. She appears perfectly healthy, maintains a good weight, and doesn't have a trace of tartar, despite the fact that I (blush) don't brush her teeth. 

I often wonder, though, if we worry far too much about what we're feeding our dogs. When I think of what the (always outside) dogs we had growing up were fed - table scraps and purina or the equivalent - and they always seemed fine. And, I recently read a book mentioned on another thread, "Every night, Josephine", written by Jacqueline Susann about life with HER miniature poodle. She lived in a hotel (it's so hard for me to imagine that anyone actually LIVES in a hotel) in NYC, no kitchen to speak of, and the poodle, Josephine, pretty much ate whatever restaurant food they ate - including drinking coffee!! Now, to be sure, Josephine was pretty overweight. She needed surgery on her knee when she was eight, and the vet wouldn't perform the surgery until she lost about 5 pounds. And, I do think they changed the way they fed her from that point on. However, she lived to be 16. Definitely not advocating that type of diet for anyone's dog, just suggesting that perhaps we (I) shouldn't get quite as stressed about it as we (I!) sometimes do.


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## doditwo (Nov 7, 2017)

I’m waiting on a new puppy and have been studying up on raw feeding. At this point I’m convinced but also overwhelmed by info overload, so I looked for a good simple how-to set of practical directions I can use. This article from The Natural Dog fit the bill, I highly recommend it. Enjoy!
http://rawfeddogs.org/rawguide


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## stormey916 (Feb 19, 2017)

There’s a wonderful raw feeding website, Raw Feeding Miami- I order there frozen raw (we use the grinds, has correct percentage of meat,bone and organ in a ground up form) supplements and natural treats from . You can place an order and it’s shipped to your door in dry ice. Very knowledgible woman runs the company and will answer any questions if you email her as well. Highly recommend!
https://www.rawfeedingmiami.com/


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

AmyJane said:


> I'm a dental assistant, so I'm kind of inclined to just brush my dog's teeth myself. It would let me keep an eye on her oral condition daily, which seems good to me.
> 
> I found a vanilla mint toothpaste for dogs on amazon that seems pretty popular. Do you think that would be ok as opposed to a paste that tastes like beef or something? Seems a shame to get the mouth all clean, only for it to smell like food. (I know that's just a human preference though, and the dog's oral health is really what's important here).


I would avoid mint. I know it’s popular for humans. That “clean feeling” is the body’s reaction to an irritant; as a human we have “learned” to associate it with clean/brushed teeth, but your dogs probably won’t. Meat flavored will be more welcome. 

We do home cooked. My dog has several food allergies and intolerances such as peas and other lentils which seem to be in all the commercial food. She was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. The vet has her on basically the same recipe I used to feed my tpoo who had pancreatitis. My tpoo lived to the ripe age of 18 and was only ill with arthritis in her last year. I lean with the germphobes plus we’re vegan so I’m buying organic cooked meat and mixing that with spinach, oatmeal, potatoes, carrots and some other additions including vitamins with calcium. 

I don’t think you need to feed raw to feed well. Find what works for you and your dog.


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