# Breeder prefers no vaccines for life of spoo



## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

Hi all!

I am on the waitlist with a breeder that came referred. They informed me that their puppies are not vaccinated prefer for their puppies to never be vaccinated at all. 

I need to know how feasible this would be?

I live in a city, the puppy is a service dog prospect and all of my local laws that dogs have to be vaccinated. For my housing accommodation, I have to provide proof of vaccination.

I need to determine if this is a reasonable request, if it is not I would like to let the breeder know that I will not be able to get a puppy from her. I don’t want to get a puppy knowing that I am going to blatantly disregard the request of the breeder.

What are the alternatives to vaccines?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi,

This is not a reasonable request and there are no viable alternatives to vaccines.

If absolutely nothing else Rabies is required by law in the US and Canada, along with some other locations. Distemper and parvo are generally deadly.

If you don't vaccinate you won't be able to license your spoo.

You won't be able to take your spoo to a groomer.

You won't be able to board your spoo should you travel without them.

If your spoo should happen to nip someone in play or from fear, your spoo will be at best quarantined for 4 months, and possibly euthanized outright.

I understand being judicious with vaccines but this is nothing but cavalier with the life of the puppies.

Read thru this very recent thread for a discussion of vaccines:

https://www.poodleforum.com/threads/vaccinations-yes-or-no.272739
Reading your post again and fjm's comment, I have to wonder what the breeder is thinking, advising an owner to break the law in addition to the risk.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Absolutely agree with RnP - why would you avoid something which is not only required by law if you live in a country with endemic rabies, but will also protect your pup from a number of truly horrible diseases that can kill, or leave serious long term disabilities. I would also have concerns that a pup from anyone who refuses to vaccinate may already have health issues.


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## Jbean (Feb 18, 2019)

That is an extreme idea and I would look for a different breeder. Vaccines are safe and effective and prevent an enormous amount of suffering. The anti-vaccine movement is just completely wrong.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

What Rose n Poos said. Aside from everything already mentioned, I think you need to be even more diligent with a service dog than with a pet. Service dogs travel more, increasing their chances of exposure. Plus, service dogs need to stay healthy to do their jobs.
Years ago I missed one of Snarky's kennel cough boosters; Pogo got the full round. Around that time one of my friends adopted a dog that came in on a Dixie dog rescue transport. All of her dogs as well as Snarky came down with kennel cough. Her dogs were hacking and miserable for almost 3 weeks. Snarky, with his single immunization, was coughing lightly for about a week. Pogo was fine. 
Imagine not being able to take a service dog out of the house for three weeks because it's sick. Imagine infecting your friend's service dogs too. Imagine instead of kennel cough the ailment is something with high mortality, like parvo, so some of the dogs never return to service. I think there is a responsibility to society, not just the dogs, to vaccinate.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Lex16 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I am on the waitlist with a breeder that came referred. They informed me that their puppies are not vaccinated prefer for their puppies to never be vaccinated at all.
> 
> ...


Personally I would not purchase from a breeder that makes such a request and has not had her puppies or dogs vaccinated. I've seen parvo virus knock out a complete kennel. But thats me.


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## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

I did receive some additional information: They do allow the puppy to given the legally required vaccines but outside of that they prefer to let the dog utilize its natural immune response. Essential oils, herbs and other holistic methods are allowed. The dogs are reared on a raw diet (which I love) and raised in a completely chemical free environment, from the household cleaning products to the lawn care.

I definitely do not want to jeopardize anyone’s beloved pet, endanger my own or go against the breeders preferences so I will remove myself from their waitlist.

Thank you so much everyone, I suppose that this may not be the breeder for me.

Shame, they have such beautiful silvers.


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## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is not a reasonable request and there are no viable alternatives to vaccines.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for the link, it is very helpful. I know breeders put so much into their dogs that I really try to abide by their request but this one doesn’t seem reasonable for me.


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## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

Mufar42 said:


> Personally I would not purchase from a breeder that makes such a request and has not had her puppies or dogs vaccinated. I've seen parvo virus knock out a complete kennel. But thats me.


That is absolutely terrifying; this breeder believes in a completely holistic lifestyle for their dogs. There is a breeder for everyone, this one may not be for me.


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## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

cowpony said:


> What Rose n Poos said. Aside from everything already mentioned, I think you need to be even more diligent with a service dog than with a pet. Service dogs travel more, increasing their chances of exposure. Plus, service dogs need to stay healthy to do their jobs.
> Years ago I missed one of Snarky's kennel cough boosters; Pogo got the full round. Around that time one of my friends adopted a dog that came in on a Dixie dog rescue transport. All of her dogs as well as Snarky came down with kennel cough. Her dogs were hacking and miserable for almost 3 weeks. Snarky, with his single immunization, was coughing lightly for about a week. Pogo was fine.
> Imagine not being able to take a service dog out of the house for three weeks because it's sick. Imagine infecting your friend's service dogs too. Imagine instead of kennel cough the ailment is something with high mortality, like parvo, so some of the dogs never return to service. I think there is a responsibility to society, not just the dogs, to vaccinate.


Wow, that is a great real life example of how important vaccines are. I believe in vaccines, for humans and animals, if for no other reason than to protect those who can not be vaccinated themselves.

I would be devastated if something happened to my service dog lifeline because of no vaccines. I try to respect breeder choices but this request I won’t be able to abide by. I had a list of 3 breeders, so better luck with the next one!


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## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

fjm said:


> Absolutely agree with RnP - why would you avoid something which is not only required by law if you live in a country with endemic rabies, but will also protect your pup from a number of truly horrible diseases that can kill, or leave serious long term disabilities. I would also have concerns that a pup from anyone who refuses to vaccinate may already have health issues.


I agree with what you say completely.

This breeder believes in a completely holistic lifestyle for their dogs. No chemicals in the household, raw food diet, no dew claw removal, no tail docking, using the dogs natural immune response, etc.

Clarification reveals that they do allow for the vaccines required by law but outside of that they prefer natural methods. Herbs, essential oils, massages, etc.


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## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

Jbean said:


> That is an extreme idea and I would look for a different breeder. Vaccines are safe and effective and prevent an enormous amount of suffering. The anti-vaccine movement is just completely wrong.


I agree with you with looking for another breeder. They prefer a completely natural and holistic lifestyle and I wasn’t sure if their methods were good alternatives to vaccines.

I liken dog vaccines to human vaccines but I am going to be a first time puppy owner so I wasn’t completely sure if the concept was the same. I am glad to see that it is though, I understand how important vaccines are.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Add me to the list of people who agree with Rose n Poos. It is reasonable to titer for diseases where the vaccines are not legally required, but core mandatory immunizations like rabies no way. You must do them.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I'm going to take a bit of a different stance. My dog's breeder is a bit like this one. She prefers to avoid vaccines and re vaccination when possible, though she is not so extreme as to require it completely of every puppy owner. When I got my dog, I thoroughly discussed with her that I would use titers to ensure immunity. My vet is very progressive and also prefers to titer rather than give vaccines that the dog is already immune to. Growing up, we had a cat that was susceptible to vaccine associated sarcomas, so I see the benefit to a conservative approach. But I am also a biologist and I want to be sure that my dog is protected. So we titer. Personally, I wouldn't rule out the breeder if they are titering their dogs to ensure immunity, and if they are doing regular fecals and heartworm tests to ensure their dogs/puppies are free of parasites. And if you can come to an agreement about what to do with your pup.

I am not anti vaccine. But I would disagree that pet vaccines are completely safe. Pet vaccines are not tested nearly enough, and have very high rates of side effects compared to human vaccines. I also feed raw. My dog does have a docked tail but he has his dewclaws intact. You will find that many groomers and many trainers and boarding facilities are willing to take titers in lieu of vaccines. But I would not commit to this unless you can check on this before you get your dog. Service dogs may have additional requirements that I do not have to deal with for my dog. If you want more information on my experience you can PM me.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I feel like there is value in taking a conservative approach to vaccines, and tailoring your dog's schedule to its particular needs and environment. But there's nothing "holistic" about adopting an extreme, one-size-fits-all position.

I want the freedom to manage my own dog's health and would probably also choose to walk away.....despite also deeply appreciating a good silver


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Lex16 said:


> The dogs are reared on a raw diet (which I love) and _raised in a completely chemical free environment, from the household cleaning products to the lawn care._



One other thing which concerns me, although you've pretty much decided on a pass for this breeder. Especially if your dog is to be a service dog, and is raised in an environmental vacuum, how will he or she develop "exposure immunity" to the world at large and be able to help you outside the protective bubble? Vaccines are intentionally induced "exposure immunity". 

Titering is an option for most vaccines after the initial series are concluded and boostered (usually 1x), except for rabies. 

Rabies *must* be given by law every 1-3 years, depending, although some studies show immunity can last much longer.


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## rock55 (Aug 31, 2019)

Lex16 said:


> I did receive some additional information: They do allow the puppy to given the legally required vaccines but outside of that they prefer to let the dog utilize its natural immune response. Essential oils, herbs and other holistic methods are allowed. The dogs are reared on a raw diet (which I love) and raised in a completely chemical free environment, from the household cleaning products to the lawn care.
> 
> I definitely do not want to jeopardize anyone’s beloved pet, endanger my own or go against the breeders preferences so I will remove myself from their waitlist.
> 
> ...


Read Dogs Naturally site’s info. They have very interesting articles. Very informative. Vaccines are not safe. Have you ever read the ingredients? One of my dogs developed significant skin reaction from vaccines. There are nosodes as alternatives. There’s titer testing. Raw diet truly helps the immune system more than vaccines and yes natural immunity does work. I would be very interested in knowing who this breeder is for future reference bc it sounds like we are on the same page. You need to do what is comfortable for you though. Diseases can be deadly and so can vaccines. It’s a hard decision. As for trainers and groomers, there are some who are natural and don’t require vaccines. Some accept titer testing as well. Be worth checking into. There are also some holistic vets who give homeopathic treatments to vaccinated dogs to help mitigate reactions. There’s something called Anti-vaccinosis that you can give your dog to help as well. You have options. Best wishes in your search.


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## Jbean (Feb 18, 2019)

Vaccines are safe.

There are a large number of quack websites out there making various outrageous claims. As much as I love reading about quackery (it really is a hobby of mine!), I'm certainly not silly enough to be persuaded by any of that nonsense.


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## Lily5949 (Jan 10, 2020)

I believe our dogs should be vaccinated. I believe the problems we are seeing is from over vaccination, in both the amount of vaccine ( I have toys) and the frequency of vaccination. There are many studies out there about how long the vaccines are actually lasting, and in many cases, it is long past the revaccination schedule. I have my dogs vaccinated until adulthood, then I titer. My toys have titered for distemper immunity for over ten years. There are also reports that the Lymes and Lepto vaccines may not be effective.


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## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

Rose n Poos said:


> One other thing which concerns me, although you've pretty much decided on a pass for this breeder. Especially if your dog is to be a service dog, and is raised in an environmental vacuum, how will he or she develop "exposure immunity" to the world at large and be able to help you outside the protective bubble? Vaccines are intentionally induced "exposure immunity".
> 
> Titering is an option for most vaccines after the initial series are concluded and boostered (usually 1x), except for rabies.
> 
> Rabies *must* be given by law every 1-3 years, depending, although some studies show immunity can last much longer.


I do believe in titering and situational/environmental vaccines. They prefer no titering as well, definitely going to have to pass. 
Their stance is that raw feeding and natural immunity is more than enough but as it is not a risk I can take with my pup.


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## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

Lily5949 said:


> I believe our dogs should be vaccinated. I believe the problems we are seeing is from over vaccination, in both the amount of vaccine ( I have toys) and the frequency of vaccination. There are many studies out there about how long the vaccines are actually lasting, and in many cases, it is long past the revaccination schedule. I have my dogs vaccinated until adulthood, then I titer. My toys have titered for distemper immunity for over ten years. There are also reports that the Lymes and Lepto vaccines may not be effective.


Yes, i have been reading up on titering and situational/environmental vaccinations and I think it is a happy medium between no vaccinations and over vaccinating. I will follow that route, I want my pup and everyone elses to be safe.


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## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

Jbean said:


> Vaccines are safe.
> 
> There are a large number of quack websites out there making various outrageous claims. As much as I love reading about quackery (it really is a hobby of mine!), I'm certainly not silly enough to be persuaded by any of that nonsense.


Lol I like your hobby!


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## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I feel like there is value in taking a conservative approach to vaccines, and tailoring your dog's schedule to its particular needs and environment. But there's nothing "holistic" about adopting an extreme, one-size-fits-all position.
> 
> I want the freedom to manage my own dog's health and would probably also choose to walk away.....despite also deeply appreciating a good silver


I agree with you, no extreme is good. Silvers are my weak spot as well. They're just lovely!


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## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

Raindrops said:


> I'm going to take a bit of a different stance. My dog's breeder is a bit like this one. She prefers to avoid vaccines and re vaccination when possible, though she is not so extreme as to require it completely of every puppy owner. When I got my dog, I thoroughly discussed with her that I would use titers to ensure immunity. My vet is very progressive and also prefers to titer rather than give vaccines that the dog is already immune to. Growing up, we had a cat that was susceptible to vaccine associated sarcomas, so I see the benefit to a conservative approach. But I am also a biologist and I want to be sure that my dog is protected. So we titer. Personally, I wouldn't rule out the breeder if they are titering their dogs to ensure immunity, and if they are doing regular fecals and heartworm tests to ensure their dogs/puppies are free of parasites. And if you can come to an agreement about what to do with your pup.
> 
> I am not anti vaccine. But I would disagree that pet vaccines are completely safe. Pet vaccines are not tested nearly enough, and have very high rates of side effects compared to human vaccines. I also feed raw. My dog does have a docked tail but he has his dewclaws intact. You will find that many groomers and many trainers and boarding facilities are willing to take titers in lieu of vaccines. But I would not commit to this unless you can check on this before you get your dog. Service dogs may have additional requirements that I do not have to deal with for my dog. If you want more information on my experience you can PM me.


As it was explained to me, nothing foreign, no chemicals, no toxin goes on or in the dogs, which includes titering for them. I believe a conservative and personalized approach is reasonable but that is not their outlook on the topic.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Lex16 said:


> As it was explained to me, nothing foreign, no chemicals, no toxin goes on or in the dogs, which includes titering for them. I believe a conservative and personalized approach is reasonable but that is not their outlook on the topic.


I'm confused as to why they'd be against titering. That's literally just a blood draw.


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## Lex16 (Sep 2, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> Add me to the list of people who agree with Rose n Poos. It is reasonable to titer for diseases where the vaccines are not legally required, but core mandatory immunizations like rabies no way. You must do them.


I agree. Out of respect for their preferences i am going to go with another breeder.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Sounds like they are well intentioned, but very misguided. You are wise to pass.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Lex16 said:


> I did receive some additional information: They do allow the puppy to given the legally required vaccines but outside of that they prefer to let the dog utilize its natural immune response. Essential oils, herbs and other holistic methods are allowed. The dogs are reared on a raw diet (which I love) and raised in a completely chemical free environment, from the household cleaning products to the lawn care.


I am just re-reading this particular post. I am so glad you let us know. It sounds like this thread was actually started with inaccurate information which some are still reacting to. I am now curious about exactly what the breeder says in their own words.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I have owned dogs for 50 years and all have been vaccinated yearly. All my dogs with the exception of 1 lived 14-18 years. I think that is pretty good odds. I think all dogs as well as people should be vaccinated. Otherwise you can cause harm to another unless you never expose yourself to others. Now on the other side I also do not have any objection if one wants to titer after being vaccinated.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

kontiki said:


> I am just re-reading this particular post. I am so glad you let us know. It sounds like this thread was actually started with inaccurate information which some are still reacting to. I am now curious about exactly what the breeder says in their own words.


The exception of "legally required" would cover only Rabies though, so I think the reactions/comments are still valid.


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## Shelley5776 (Nov 14, 2021)

Hello! Are you able to share the name of this breeder? I am super interested! Thanks.




Lex16 said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I am on the waitlist with a breeder that came referred. They informed me that their puppies are not vaccinated prefer for their puppies to never be vaccinated at all.
> 
> ...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Requiring/requesting an owner to not comply with law regarding rabies and common sense public health measures is a huge no to me. Minimizing vaccinations and only using those that make sense in context of local disease situations sure, but nothing at all is foolish beyond reason to me.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Shelley5776 said:


> Hello! Are you able to share the name of this breeder? I am super interested! Thanks.


Hello.
This thread is almost 2 years old and I don't think the OP has been around for a while.

Regardless, as this breeder appears to be asking buyers to break the law, not to mention ignoring best practices, this is not a breeder that can be recommended.

There is a minimal vaccine protocol established by Dr. Jean Dodds. 

Look for breeders that follow that protocol.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Just want to ensure this is clear. From the OP: 



Lex16 said:


> They do allow the puppy to given the legally required vaccines but outside of that they prefer to let the dog utilize its natural immune response.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Thanks for the reminder of that clarification. I'm going to get my coffee now


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Having just seen a 1.5 year old dog that needed to be treated for parvovirus, and two puppies she was in contact with die, because none were vaccinated for it- yeah hell no.
"Legally required" is only rabies, and that isn't even anywhere else to the biggest risks for dogs. 
While distemper is extremely rare where I live, it's also fatal, and unfortunately I have seen a case of that too.


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## ThoreauMandu (1 mo ago)

Can you please let me know the breeder as I am interested in finding a breeder who does not administer vaccines. Thank you.


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## BennieJets (Oct 10, 2021)

ThoreauMandu said:


> Can you please let me know the breeder as I am interested in finding a breeder who does not administer vaccines. Thank you.


Hi there. Welcome to Poodle Forum! This thread is an older one, and as such the OP is not likely to respond. You’re welcome to start your own thread introducing yourself and letting the forum know what you’re looking for.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

This may be an older thread but I find it interesting anyway. No way would I not vaccinate my dog, I've seen many a "rescue" dog who hadn't been vaccinated and many were so sick from illnesses that could have been prevented. Now if you don't like a lot of vaccines you can always have your dog titer'd. You will then know if they still have immunity.


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## rock55 (Aug 31, 2019)

ThoreauMandu said:


> Can you please let me know the breeder as I am interested in finding a breeder who does not administer vaccines. Thank you.


Hello, I am not sure if you are asking me directly or just posting but I did get a notification so I will respond. For those who are interested in natural practices there are few sites that list breeders of this nature. Natural rearing breeders association is one site. Danube poodles naturally rears poodles but I believe only does miniatures. Feel free to send me a direct message as I'd be happy to help provide information so you can make an informed decision. There are many different views on the topic.


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## ThoreauMandu (1 mo ago)

Thank you, I have just come across Danube. I have researched the subject extensively and know there are many who feel similarly although the silent minority. I understand the nuance and care required. If you'd like to send any helpful info to me I would be grateful.


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