# Miniature Poodle too small?



## Farmerjules (Mar 12, 2021)

I am a tiny home breeder with a passion for Poodles, especially my stud dog, who has the most amazing temperament.
Last November l purchased another girl Mini with the dream of her growing up and producing gorgeous pups with my boy, of which one l would have to keep.

This is my dilemma.....
My new Miniature bitch, who already seemed smaller than my boy at collection time had on and off bad diarrhea for 2 Months and didn't put on any weight in that time 😥, backwards and forwards to the vets till at last a stool sample revealed she had arrived with Salmonella!!

Now at 6 Months she is only 11.5 inches high and weighs 2.7kg, Happy and healthy in herself but looks as if she will mature so much smaller than my boy who is 8kg and 15 inches.

From your experience, will she catch up? Could she have long term problems? Should l cut my losses and find her a good pet home and purchase another bitch? Love the little girl but trying to do the right thing, not made of money and home not huge either.

On the plus side her lines are all DNA checked, as per my boy.

Any help gratefully received.


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## Pytheis (Sep 17, 2019)

What does ‘all DNA is checked’ mean? What health testing has been done on the sire/dam of the bitch and what health testing has been done on your boy? What titles has either dog achieved? I wouldn’t much trust a breeder (and would question quality of the breeder/lines) if they sent me home a sick puppy.

I, personally, would wait until the bitch is two to see where she lands. Then I would get appropriate health tests done and speak with a reproductive vet to see if he/she thinks the girl is a good breeding candidate health-wise. I would also title both the dogs in something - obedience, rally, Nosework, etc. THEN I would carefully study the pedigree of my two dogs, and the faults and weaknesses of each to determine if the dogs I have are even a good pair. Then if all of that looks good, I would consider putting them together.


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## Farmerjules (Mar 12, 2021)

Pytheis said:


> What does ‘all DNA is checked’ mean? What health testing has been done on the sire/dam of the bitch and what health testing has been done on your boy? What titles has either dog achieved? I wouldn’t much trust a breeder (and would question quality of the breeder/lines) if they sent me home a sick puppy.
> 
> I, personally, would wait until the bitch is two to see where she lands. Then I would get appropriate health tests done and speak with a reproductive vet to see if he/she thinks the girl is a good breeding candidate health-wise. I would also title both the dogs in something - obedience, rally, Nosework, etc. THEN I would carefully study the pedigree of my two dogs, and the faults and weaknesses of each to determine if the dogs I have are even a good pair. Then if all of that looks good, I would consider putting them together.


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## Farmerjules (Mar 12, 2021)

Thank you.
I'm in the UK so DNA tests are probably different, but g-pra predominant test which both are heriditary clear. 
Agree with you about the breeder, but she is hard nosed and rakes no responsibility!
Will wait and see how little girl turns out.


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## Foramini (Mar 7, 2016)

Hello, I have two Red Miniature Females. I am in Canada, and my dogs came from different breeders. My first dog came from a less than honest/reputable breeder - who was feeding raw - but did NOT do it carefully. Pup one was ill when she came, and it has taken about 2 years to sort her digestive issues out. She did grow to 13.5 inches.
Pup 2 came from a reputable breeder who is very careful about every aspect of breeding. The breeder imports and trades her miniatures with European breeders, and in Europe Miniature Poodles are only allowed to be 13 inches, THUS the sire for Pup 2 was small. I had contact with the Sire's breeder in Europe as my Miniature was and is so tiny. She noted that some Miniatures grow for a longer time. I found this to be true. Pup 2 kept slowly growing after she was a year! She will be 2 in June 2021, and has had a third heat now, so I think he is not growing anymore. She is 11.5 inches, and some have said to give up on showing or winning in Conformation in Canada. I refuse. I feel this dog has everything a Miniature should have, and is within the CKC size, so I feel she is a good breeding candidate. All her DNA came back clear, and we are on hold for her OFA on her eyes and Hip -Elbow-Knee X-rays until Covid is under control. I would also encourage you to wait and see, she might surprise you. I do not feed commercial food, and got my directions from my Veterinarian on how to cook food for my dogs, plus adding Probiotics to improve gut health - to help Pup 1 get over the horrible gut issues she came to me with. Best of luck with your girl!




  








5D4 3297 1




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Foramini


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Apr 19, 2019


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome!

Not many of us have bred our poodles so there isn't a large experience pool to drink from.



Farmerjules said:


> she had arrived with Salmonella!!
> 
> Now at 6 Months she is only 11.5 inches high and weighs 2.7kg, Happy and healthy in herself but looks as if she will mature so much smaller than my boy who is 8kg and 15 inches.
> 
> From your experience, will she catch up? Could she have long term problems?


Miniatures can keep growing til a year but can stop as early as 6-7 months. If she doesn't grow significantly, the size difference alone would give me serious pause. If the difference was the other way around, your bitch was larger than your dog, that's not as much a concern. Still, you want to have a smaller gap I should think.

Whether the bout with salmonella could have long term consequences to her growth, her own health, and/or to her ability to conceive and carry to term is a question to ask of a vet.

I have to say that I think the first question is not answerable without time waited, the second needs medical advice.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Pytheis said:


> I, personally, would wait until the bitch is two to see where she lands. Then I would get appropriate health tests done and speak with a reproductive vet to see if he/she thinks the girl is a good breeding candidate health-wise.


Farmerjules, Your new puppy is only six months and running on the small side. I too hope you wait until she's two or close to it, and at bare minimum has had two heats. Her small size compared to the size of the stud is a major concern. All it takes is one big headed puppy to be too large to get stuck in the birth process, and you'd need an expensive C-section. If you don't get to the vet on time for that, you could easily lose the entire litter and quite possibly your girl. Even if she ends up having a C-section and all the puppies survive, she'd have to wear a collar immediately afterwards and there's a good chance she'll be unwilling or unable to nurse them - leaving that extremely labor & time intensive feeding job to you.



Farmerjules said:


> From your experience, will she catch up? Could she have long term problems? Should l cut my losses and find her a good pet home and purchase another bitch? Love the little girl but trying to do the right thing, not made of money and home not huge either.


Since you asked, probably not on catching up, and yes, I think cutting your losses now and finding her a good pet home is best for both of you. Miniatures generally have small litters of 3 or 4 puppies. The time it will take for your female to grow into maturity is time you could be doing far easier and more profitable ways to earn money. Some dogs, like people, have fertility problems, and a pregnancy could result in loss and death for reasons already explained. For other problems, please read _So You Want To Be A Breeder?_


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

Hello there 😊
I also breed poodles and my new miniature Parti poodle stud is 7 months old and 14 inches tall. My female is 11 inches tall and 9 pounds. I don’t have any concerns about breeding her with Charlie Brown or that the puppies will be too big. I also have a large miniature/Moyen poodle female that I will be breeding. 
Your puppy is still very young and she has room to grow up and fill out. I wouldn’t give up on her yet. ❤🐩


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

To be fair to the OP I don't see any indications in the post that they intend to breed her at 6months or that they are in it for the money. I at least interpreted the 'not made of money' comment as referring to the cost of keeping a dog that will then not work out. They wouldn't be worried about whether the female will grow bigger as she gets older if they were already breeding her at 6 months. 

As to the question, I don't have any expertise to give you as I am not a breeder and am now just on a waiting list for a puppy. But what I expect from a good breeder is to make difficult choices like these, to decide to not breed a dog when they don't meet expectations even though they have already sunk a lot of time, money and love into them. Other than titling and health testing, for me that selectivity is what makes a quality breeder. 

Of course her being a female makes this an even more difficult situation, as its not just about does she have good enough genes to pass on, but also, will she have a healthy pregnancy? Which is something none of us can answer, you have to talk to your vet. 

If I were you, I would also want to connect with more experienced breeders to get your next female from. Breeders that could mentor you and help you with decisions like this. 

Do you do any shows or titling with your male? What are your goals with the breeding? will these be your foundation dogs for a line?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Darling Darla said:


> I also breed poodles and my new miniature Parti poodle stud is 7 months old and 14 inches tall. My female is 11 inches tall and 9 pounds. I don’t have any concerns about breeding her with Charlie Brown or that the puppies will be too big. I also have a large miniature/Moyen poodle female that I will be breeding.


Your vet recommends this pairing? And they are skilled in reproductive services? I’m interested in when the size difference becomes potentially problematic. What is the threshold?


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Your vet recommends this pairing? And they are skilled in reproductive services? I’m interested in when the size difference becomes potentially problematic. What is the threshold?


I don’t see why my vets opinion is relevant? I have 23 years experience with breeding dogs. My vet is very experienced in all aspects of dogs. With any pregnancy their is always an element of risk. Proper prenatal care is recommended. Knowing your breeding dogs line is a must.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Farmerjules said:


> I am a tiny home breeder with a passion for Poodles, especially my stud dog, who has the most amazing temperament.
> Last November l purchased another girl Mini with the dream of her growing up and producing gorgeous pups with my boy, of which one l would have to keep.
> 
> This is my dilemma.....
> ...


Well its not quite so simple...the bitch should be larger than the stud, however you also need to know the sizes & temperaments of previous generations on both. It is no longer accepted to breed two dogs because the owner thinks they have great temperaments and are DNA verified. All that means is they are 100% poodle. What about genetic testing?
The basic criteria from what I understand for miniatures are :

1) Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test

2) Eye Evaluation

3) Hip (Dysplasia) Evaluation

My neighbor purchased a pup less than 2 1/2 years ago from a "breeder", she has already spent 3x the cost of the puppy on surgeries for *luxating patella*. which her vet said would have been avoided had this "breeder" done the genetic testing on her dogs prior to breeding them . She is taking recourse against the breeder in court though she doesn't expect to win just to make this person aware that breeding has consequences when conditions that are genetically predisposed and not disclosed.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Farmerjules said:


> Now at 6 Months she is only 11.5 inches high and weighs 2.7kg, Happy and healthy in herself but looks as if she will mature so much smaller than my boy who is 8kg and 15 inches.


She will probably end up at 13 to 13.5. That's a reasonable size, but not one that is likely to do any winning in conformation shows in the US. My miniature bitch is 14 - maybe even 14.5, but only weighs 11 lbs. She did not do well in conformation because she was so much smaller than the bitches that are currently being shown. So I cut her into a utility clip and am doing obedience and agility with her. I plan to breed her and will keep a puppy for show. 

Mufar42, add OFA evaluation of patellar luxation to your list. The eye evaluation should be done annually.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Darling Darla said:


> I don’t see why my vets opinion is relevant? I have 23 years experience with breeding dogs. My vet is very experienced in all aspects of dogs. With any pregnancy their is always an element of risk. Proper prenatal care is recommended. Knowing your breeding dogs line is a must.


I assumed this was something done in consultation with a vet. Based on your breeding experience, is there a threshold at which the size disparity becomes too much?


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Sorry I have to be pedantic because I have seen this mistake on so many forums. I have not seen OFA used in Europe. 

There is no similar European entity, we usually do the same testings (especially the joint ones) but its not as centralised. Some Kennel Clubs will keep a database of test results alongside pedigree. 

You local or national kennel club will have more information on the correct procedures for the tests.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Oh and the annual eye exam should be done by an ECVO vet (European College of Veterinary Ophthalmologists). It cant be done by just a regular vet. 

I dont know about KC but hip exam is not required for FCI miniatures, just knees. Might be because the FCI miniatures are smaller while many american miniatures are moyen size by FCI standard.


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I assumed this was something done in consultation with a vet. Based on your breeding experience, is there a threshold at which the size disparity becomes too much?


Yes there is a threshold for size. Knowing the size of the line your Stud dog comes from is important. 5 pounds difference is not a deal breaker. With careful selection the pairing is okay. My friend has a stud dog that is 10 pounds and he throws bigger puppies that mature to 15 pounds. A small mother doesn’t mean she needs a smaller stud. There is a little bit of confusion about pairing.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

curlflooffan said:


> Oh and the annual eye exam should be done by an ECVO vet (European College of Veterinary Ophthalmologists). It cant be done by just a regular vet.
> 
> I dont know about KC but hip exam is not required for FCI miniatures, just knees. Might be because the FCI miniatures are smaller while many american miniatures are moyen size by FCI standard.


Oh yeah that is true. The OP's male is actually a moyen size by FCI so would need a hip screening.


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## Foramini (Mar 7, 2016)

Mufar42 said:


> Well its not quite so simple...the bitch should be larger than the stud, however you also need to know the sizes & temperaments of previous generations on both. It is no longer accepted to breed two dogs because the owner thinks they have great temperaments and are DNA verified. All that means is they are 100% poodle. What about genetic testing?
> The basic criteria from what I understand for miniatures are :
> 
> 1) Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test
> ...


As of January 2021 - DNA does NOT predict Luxating Patella. It also does not show Hip Dysplasia or Epilepsy and a whole bunch of other issues in all sizes of Poodles. Having a vet check your puppy early and regularly is so important.


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