# Has anyone been following this about the latest seizure?



## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

No, I haven't seen or heard anything about it until now, this stuff makes me sick but also makes my blood boil.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Yes, from what I have been reading on Facebook, this is a well respected breeder and many in the dog community feel that this was an unwarranted AR seizure.
Also reading that once again the media reports are mis-representing the number of animals, the conditions of the kennel and the dogs, and posting pictures that are not of her dogs.


----------



## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Absolutely disgusting. Thank goodness for the people who rescue these animals.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Once again you people swallow whatever the media tells you hook, line and sinker!
I don't have any personal knowledge of this case, I am just saying that there are a lot of people who seem to who feel that the breeder is the victim here, not the animals.
Of course nobody wants to hear that animals were suffering in deplorable conditions, but just be careful that you don't allow the AR movement to use our knee jerk emotional response to cause us not to question and examine what they are telling us, and ultimately allowing them to achieve their agenda of eliminating ALL breeders!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Once again you people swallow whatever the media tells you hook, line and sinker!
> I don't have any personal knowledge of this case, I am just saying that there are a lot of people who seem to who feel that the breeder is the victim here, not the animals.
> Of course nobody wants to hear that animals were suffering in deplorable conditions, but just be careful that you don't allow the AR movement to use our knee jerk emotional response to cause us not to question and examine what they are telling us, and ultimately allowing them to achieve their agenda of eliminating ALL breeders!


Ya' think? I will tell you MY personal experience. When this woman was Dayspring/Katrina Schumacher we began talking (before this she was Kathy Soles and since has been Cathy Warren and Cathie Odegaard). She had a litter of red Standards that did not have a lot of the red/apricot ancestry that seems to pop up in nearly every single pedigree. I had a litter she was interested in. So we spoke a lot and she plied me with tons of photos of her litter every day. She promised me she would test the parents of the pups for all of the DNA things ( vWd, DM and NE) so that the people who got breeding dogs from her would not have to all test their puppies for things they might be clear of. She made a lot of promises she did not keep. She did not test the parents. I got Flynn. She got Besame. Flynn was picked up at the Toronto airport by my sister Amy and her family, who are his foster family. He was a nervous puppy and it took a long time for him to be comfortable in his own skin. He went to a warm home and a loving family who think the sun rises and sets on him. Besame went to Edmonton in the dead of winter and Katrina informed me after she had arrived there that her THEN husband did not like dogs, so my delightful little puppy spent all day every day in sub zero temperatures in Alberta outside in a lean to open on at least a couple of sides to the weather. Her photos and her many discussions on the phone totally fooled me. I cried many nights wondering how my little girl was faring living the life she was living. She was bred at 18 months for the first time with no more testing than a pre-lim on her hips. She was sold to a holding company who bred her three more times. While Katrina was with "that" husband apparently the dogs spent their days outside and their nights in crates all lined up side by side. I will never forgive this woman for what she did to this puppy girl. She lied to people who called her and mentioned me, telling them my Holly was over 30" at the shoulder. She lied to me about doing the testing on Flynn's parents. She lied to me about how my puppy would live when she arrived there. Once we made the trade, she would not take my phone calls. If I was able to get through to her it was because I blocked my number. BTW...Flynn has never sired a litter. He is still so unsure of himself that he has never mounted a female. In my opinion, what has transpired lately is just damned good karma biting her right on her butt!"


----------



## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

No, they are not, TP. Stop talking smack about PETA and other animal welfare groups that do wonderful things to help shut down puppy mills!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

zooeysmom said:


> No, they are not, TP. Stop talking smack about PETA and other animal welfare groups that do wonderful things to help shut down puppy mills!


PETA is a group of monied demons who will do anything to stop the ownership of pets. They are trying to make it impossible to breed dogs or own pets. Please do not support them. Their euthanasia rates are insane compared to animals rescued and re-homed. It is terrifying.


----------



## jazzipoodle (Mar 30, 2010)

Zooeysmom, PETA is not what you think. They kill nearly all the animals that come into their care. Here's a link about them The Truth about PETA | YesBiscuit!. The AR people aren't in favor of pets. I deplore puppy mills and abuse of animals but the AR people don't have your best interests at heart.


----------



## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I too am not a fan of Peta! I have a problem though with most 'Nonprofits' who spend too much money(IMO) on advertising and 'fund raising events' instead of saving animals from cruelty. 
I'm sorry Arreau that you personally had to experience that women's nerfarious behavior first hand!.........So sorry for the Spoos involved too!


----------



## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

PETA is against service animals. They say we force our dogs to work, and enslave them. That humans should help people with disabilities. Find me a human being who will pick up the same dollar bill off the floor 18 times in a row and never say, "why can't you hang on to it this time?" 

Now, on to the abuse story.

"Anderson and Hooper were able to see the conditions of the poodles. Many of the poodles were reported to have the top of their heads flattened because the crates were too small and they could not put their heads up while sitting down."

This is cruelty, period. No excuse. When Nelson Mandela was forced to wear shoes that were two small for his feet, it was considered a form of torture. Being contorted in a box that is too small for your body, would be torture. This makes me sick with anger.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Ya' think? I will tell you MY personal experience. When this woman was Dayspring/Katrina Schumacher we began talking (before this she was Kathy Soles and since has been Cathy Warren and Cathie Odegaard). She had a litter of red Standards that did not have a lot of the red/apricot ancestry that seems to pop up in nearly every single pedigree. I had a litter she was interested in. So we spoke a lot and she plied me with tons of photos of her litter every day. She promised me she would test the parents of the pups for all of the DNA things ( vWd, DM and NE) so that the people who got breeding dogs from her would not have to all test their puppies for things they might be clear of. She made a lot of promises she did not keep. She did not test the parents. I got Flynn. She got Besame. Flynn was picked up at the Toronto airport by my sister Amy and her family, who are his foster family. He was a nervous puppy and it took a long time for him to be comfortable in his own skin. He went to a warm home and a loving family who think the sun rises and sets on him. Besame went to Edmonton in the dead of winter and Katrina informed me after she had arrived there that her THEN husband did not like dogs, so my delightful little puppy spent all day every day in sub zero temperatures in Alberta outside in a lean to open on at least a couple of sides to the weather. Her photos and her many discussions on the phone totally fooled me. I cried many nights wondering how my little girl was faring living the life she was living. She was bred at 18 months for the first time with no more testing than a pre-lim on her hips. She was sold to a holding company who bred her three more times. While Katrina was with "that" husband apparently the dogs spent their days outside and their nights in crates all lined up side by side. I will never forgive this woman for what she did to this puppy girl. She lied to people who called her and mentioned me, telling them my Holly was over 30" at the shoulder. She lied to me about doing the testing on Flynn's parents. She lied to me about how my puppy would live when she arrived there. Once we made the trade, she would not take my phone calls. If I was able to get through to her it was because I blocked my number. BTW...Flynn has never sired a litter. He is still so unsure of himself that he has never mounted a female. In my opinion, what has transpired lately is just damned good karma biting her right on her butt!"



Wow, sorry to hear that. The dynamics in the show/breeding world are just so complex... It is so difficult for anybody who is not on the inside to know what the truth of matter is....


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Click-N-Treat said:


> PETA is against service animals. They say we force our dogs to work, and enslave them. That humans should help people with disabilities. Find me a human being who will pick up the same dollar bill off the floor 18 times in a row and never say, "why can't you hang on to it this time?"
> 
> Now, on to the abuse story.
> 
> ...



Agree with you a thousand percent about PETA, and also agree with you a thousand percent about what you quoted being horrific if it is true. I just wanted to make the simple point not to take everything that you read in the media about these kinds of situations as facts. There are many people who are saying that much of this has been made up. I hope that they are correct for the animals sake, and if they are wrong and the animals were treated so horribly 
I hope that breeder hangs. Again, just pointing out that it is wrong to try and convict people based upon (possibly sensational) media reports!


----------



## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I don't trust the media blindly. Facts get discussed in courtrooms, rarely in the news.


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

What a terrible experience Arreau!


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Click-N-Treat said:


> "Anderson and Hooper were able to see the conditions of the poodles. Many of the poodles were reported to have the top of their heads flattened because the crates were too small and they could not put their heads up while sitting down."


Flattened heads??? hahaha Impossible! What a crock... 

Hyperbolic rhetoric and lies... probably from both sides. But the animal rights groups have it down to a science. I don't believe a word they say.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

As my father would have said, believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see. Arreau saw what has happened with this person and therefore I will take her word that the animals were badly badly mistreated.

That being said, PETA (thanks for the link jazzipoodle), HSUS (related to jazzipoodle's link on PETA, http://yesbiscuit.com/the-truth-about-hsus/) and other large not for profit animal rescue organizations don't really have the welfare of animals at their core of their mission. They want to end pet ownership and service animal work as well as all breeding related to dog sports (PETA) AND/OR they are maintaining the "myth" of rescuing as a way to stay in business and pass tons of money around (large organizations like North Shore Animal League, not small breed specific rescues).

Countryboy I kind of have to imagine that the poodles' top knots were matted flat, not that their skulls were deformed, but either way it sucks and as said above is torture.


----------



## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

My brother had a flattened head because before he was adopted, he was left in a crib flat on his back and never picked up. His head grew flat from staying in one position for months. That's what came to mind for me when I read that. Once my brother was adopted and allowed to move, the shape of his skull grew more normally. 

And maybe that's why I get extra pissed off at cruelty to animals and humans. Can you imagine tying a baby to a bed and never picking it up? I can't imagine leaving a dog in a crate that's too small, either. It's just unnecessarily cruel.

But, Country Boy, you're right about sensationalized "news" written to hit our feelings first and our rational, thinking brain, second. The truth will come out in court.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Click-N-Treat I am happy your brother was adopted out of a miserable infancy. I hope he has had a more than happy life since becoming your brother to make up for what he suffered when small and unable to defend himself.


----------



## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Arreau,

This story makes my blood boil and made me weep! I can only imagine how awful this was for you to know how your baby girl was treated. I am so very sorry this happened. It is awful to see that this "investigation" took so long after authorities were made aware of the horrible conditions. 

I do believe you are right about Karma finally catching up with this horrible individual.

Cathy


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

lily cd re said:


> They want to end pet ownership and service animal work as well as all breeding related to dog sports (PETA) AND/OR they are maintaining the "myth" of rescuing as a way to stay in business and pass tons of money around (large organizations like North Shore Animal League, not small breed specific rescues).


I have ascribe a very simple reason for the existence of PETA and HSUS. They are in business to make money, actually.



lily cd re said:


> Countryboy I kind of have to imagine that the poodles' top knots were matted flat, not that their skulls were deformed, but either way it sucks and as said above is torture.


I always smile at members looking for a crate that their dog "can stand up in". Number one, I'd have to have a monster crate for Tonka, he's not a small dog. And number two, dogs are not to be left in crates. It you're going to leave your dog 24/7 in a crate, yes... it should be large enuf to stand up in. But crates used normally, for temporary accommodation, only need to be big enuf for them to curl up in.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I totally agree with you CB on both points above. BTW when we still had crates out for Lily and Peeves for times we weren't home my niece wanted to sleep with Peeves in his crate. She got in and laid down to show me that there was really room for both of them.


----------



## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Arreau I can't imagine the heartache you must have gone through over that puppy, poor baby. 
I personally believe where there's smoke there's fire, I also don't care if the news reports are exaggerated, these dogs suffered and I prefer to error on the side of the helpless.


----------



## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm so sorry, Arreau :'( Heartbreaking.

Caddy, I'm with you all the way.


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I decided to check out the Adonai Rare Poodles website and that was a further blood boiler. You will never, ever get your $500 deposit back and her base price is $200 more than my dear breeder's who, like Arreau, is breeding only conformation titled pairs with all the testing. With this woman, if the price is right you can have full breeding rights. And we wonder why there are so many Poodle crosses. I don't care who took her down in this case.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mfmst said:


> I decided to check out the Adonai Rare Poodles website and that was a further blood boiler. You will never, ever get your $500 deposit back and her base price is $200 more than my dear breeder's who, like Arreau, is breeding only conformation titled pairs with all the testing. With this woman, if the price is right you can have full breeding rights. And we wonder why there are so many Poodle crosses. I don't care who took her down in this case.



Oh I abhor breeders who give full breeding to anyone who will pay more for it! 
See that on Facebook all the time where they advertise a puppy with two prices, pet and breeding rights. That's all I need to know exactly what kind of breeder they are!


----------



## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

LilyCD,

Thank you for your concern. My brother is fine. He's married, and has three little boys. Everything turned out well, but what a rough start he had.


----------



## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

I had not seen that, but I saw this one: Sugar and Spice Cockapoos - North Carolina

Between a friend of mine and my sister (loves her rescue), I actually was persuaded to make a few calls on these poodle mixes. I called the breeder - and I wore the most diplomatic hat I have - and they confirmed these dogs will definitely be PTS August 11th if not adopted. It's sad, because they are really cute little (16 pounds) poodle mixes (or "cockapoos" if you want to pay them $1,600 per puppy...but that's another topic). Soooo, I called my vet and asked about this bacteria they have and he advised not to proceed because we'd have to board my other 2 dogs for an unknown period of time. He advised me to call the Dept of Agriculture (which I did) to see if it is even legal to bring them into the state. They said it is, but to call the state epidemiologist. I did, and they said though the zoorganism (?) is curable, it can be transmitted to humans. My BIL, whom I care for frequently, is immunosuppressed (MS), so I definitely couldn't do it. When I called the breeder back and told her what I decided, she was obviously very disappointed too.

In a way, I was relieved to have a reason to hold out for the pup I want, but mostly I just felt so so so sad. Maybe that is a bacteria/parasite (not sure, bet LilyCD knows) that can develop in even the best kennel, IDK, but it makes me so angry and sad to see the little faces that are going to be PTS because of it.


----------



## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

Ugh, this is unforgivable: "...32 dogs packed into small wire crates, stacked on top of each other inside a 10-foot-by-10-foot room with no food or water. According to that same report, a bullwhip was found and Warren claimed that she would* smack the bullwhip against a tarp to keep the dogs quiet*"


----------



## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

Cherie, your story broke my heart and I know it sure broke yours. How horrible and deceitful. What goes around comes around, I hope they throw the book at her. Wretched individual! Hugs


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yikes, stay away form sources of brucellosis if you are around someone is immune suppressed or someone who is pregnant or are yourself pregnant. There are several species of _Brucella_ bacteria, but they are found in cattle, swine, dogs and other animals. A zoonosis is a disease mostly seen in animals other than humans but able to be transmitted to humans. West Nile virus and Lyme disease are actually good examples of zoonoses. People are not needed for the maintenance of these diseases but are vulnerable to them.

Here is a link to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) web page on brucellosis. https://www.cdc.gov/brucellosis/

Diseases like parvovirus, brucellosis, giardiasis and others are among the many good reasons to try to put puppy mills and large scale rescue organizations that (inadvertently) support them out of business.


----------



## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

Thanks for the info. I don't plan to get involved...but it stinks seeing a cute face with a name and a date you know it will be put to sleep. 

The article which is the main focus of this thread is horrible, though. This person had everything from birds to donkeys with poodles in between. I understand how a kennel can develop bacterial/parasitic problems, but I don't understand how someone can look at the faces of dogs in a cage and not try to up their game.


----------



## kmart (Apr 28, 2015)

This happened not too far from where I live. I know of a (disgusting) pet store that sells dogs from this place. The store keeps the smaller puppies in fish tanks and has been known to feed the kittens rotisserie chickens from the grocery store. The store also keeps monkeys in a filthy class room in the back. 

So I'm not too shocked. There was another seizure at a nearby town and there were families buying dogs from the "breeder" AS THE BREEDER WAS BEING INVESTIGATED and dogs were being taken! People just do not care.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

kmart that is gross that people would buy a puppy right next to where they could see a legal investigation happening. Too many people just want the bargain no matter what the consequences. 

granberry I didn't think you were going to go for one of those puppies, but I wanted to give information about brucellosis since it is really dangerous, especially to pregnant women and their babies.


----------



## NatalieAnne (Jul 23, 2016)

Just read an article about canine brucellosis. It states that though dogs are treated with antibiotics, they are never really cured of it. It's very sad, but how could one save the life of a puppy or dog with this if one has other animals that could contract it, not to mention oneself, or anyone who comes in contact with the dog, owner, yard, etc.? 

What a tragic situation. If it is not curable as the article stated, where is it safe to take ones dog on outings? Should we all have shoes for our pets?


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

NatalieAnne, could you share a link for the piece that you read? I would like to see what it says. My understanding is that if caught in the acute infection phase Brucellosis should be able to be cured, but that if an animal has developed some level of immune control that renders the infection subclinical (no signs or symptoms) then chronicity is likely.

Sadly the way to eradicate some zoonotic diseases does mean sacrificing a potentially large number of animals. Eradication of dangerous diseases is challenging work, but is well worth it in the grand scheme. We have eradicated small pox and are rather close to doing so for polio and there have been virtually no cases of congenital rubella syndrome in the US in years. Those are all triumphs to be celebrated.

By loose analogy many people have asked me whether Javelin will be bred. I always reply by explaining that his genes are well represented in the breed through his close relatives and that adding more copies of themto the gene pool isn't something that will help improve standard poodles, even though he is magnificent.

Back to the original topic though, I think when some of these kinds of events happen the better thing to have happen is to humanely euthanize some of the seized animals. They may have severe chronic health problems, mental health problems that are not to be overcome and/or may really just be a genetic black hole. A dog that has suffered in its life may be best set free from that suffering.


----------



## NatalieAnne (Jul 23, 2016)

Here is the link Lily CD:

vcahospitals.com
Canine Brucellosis

What do you think?


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks, I will look at it in the morning. I am dog sitting this week so I have had extra duties and am sleepy.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

What did I miss> How did Brucellosis come up? Did one of the articles claim it is on the Adonai property? If someone bought a breeding dog, it could wipe them out if that is the case.


----------



## NatalieAnne (Jul 23, 2016)

Arreau, please see reply #28. It is a different situation.


----------



## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Ya' think? I will tell you MY personal experience. When this woman was Dayspring/Katrina Schumacher we began talking (before this she was Kathy Soles and since has been Cathy Warren and Cathie Odegaard). She had a litter of red Standards that did not have a lot of the red/apricot ancestry that seems to pop up in nearly every single pedigree. I had a litter she was interested in. So we spoke a lot and she plied me with tons of photos of her litter every day. She promised me she would test the parents of the pups for all of the DNA things ( vWd, DM and NE) so that the people who got breeding dogs from her would not have to all test their puppies for things they might be clear of. She made a lot of promises she did not keep. She did not test the parents. I got Flynn. She got Besame. Flynn was picked up at the Toronto airport by my sister Amy and her family, who are his foster family. He was a nervous puppy and it took a long time for him to be comfortable in his own skin. He went to a warm home and a loving family who think the sun rises and sets on him. Besame went to Edmonton in the dead of winter and Katrina informed me after she had arrived there that her THEN husband did not like dogs, so my delightful little puppy spent all day every day in sub zero temperatures in Alberta outside in a lean to open on at least a couple of sides to the weather. Her photos and her many discussions on the phone totally fooled me. I cried many nights wondering how my little girl was faring living the life she was living. She was bred at 18 months for the first time with no more testing than a pre-lim on her hips. She was sold to a holding company who bred her three more times. While Katrina was with "that" husband apparently the dogs spent their days outside and their nights in crates all lined up side by side. I will never forgive this woman for what she did to this puppy girl. She lied to people who called her and mentioned me, telling them my Holly was over 30" at the shoulder. She lied to me about doing the testing on Flynn's parents. She lied to me about how my puppy would live when she arrived there. Once we made the trade, she would not take my phone calls. If I was able to get through to her it was because I blocked my number. BTW...Flynn has never sired a litter. He is still so unsure of himself that he has never mounted a female. In my opinion, what has transpired lately is just damned good karma biting her right on her butt!"


Oh. My. Gosh. I must have failed to scroll beneath an ad or something the first time I got on this thread, and I missed this the first time around. Arreau, that is the saddest, most horrifying story I have ever heard. It is one thing to feel anger against a puppy mill. It is quite another to have your own puppy girl involved. I am so sorry. I hate reading about dogs in bad situations; the only thing worse would be to know one of the dogs in there. 

This is unforgivable, and I hope this woman loses all of her dogs forever and ever.


----------



## kmart (Apr 28, 2015)

Oops post


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

NatalieAnne said:


> Just read an article about canine brucellosis. It states that though dogs are treated with antibiotics, they are never really cured of it. It's very sad, but how could one save the life of a puppy or dog with this if one has other animals that could contract it, not to mention oneself, or anyone who comes in contact with the dog, owner, yard, etc.?
> 
> What a tragic situation. If it is not curable as the article stated, where is it safe to take ones dog on outings? Should we all have shoes for our pets?


I looked at the article you posted about and it all looks accurate to my knowledge. Since it seems that there is no sterilizing immunity once infected and that antibiotic therapy also is incomplete then I don't see how that dog could ever be allowed around other dogs. Shedding of bacteria is not constant, but infected dogs are also generally free of obvious signs she it doesn't seem like you could know when the dog was or wasn't shedding and contagious.


----------



## NatalieAnne (Jul 23, 2016)

Lily cd,

Here is another specific to dog owners:

dhs.wisconsin.gov
Canine Brucellosis: Questions & Answers For Dog Owners
The bottom of page 2 addresses some of my specific concerns.


----------



## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

WOW! In the case of brucellosis.........why in the heck is that woman even allowed to sell those pups with them having a zoonotic disease? Why wouldn't the health dept stop her? Those dogs could be dangerous to people like me who have impaired immune systems!!


----------



## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

MollyMuiMa said:


> WOW! In the case of brucellosis.........why in the heck is that woman even allowed to sell those pups with them having a zoonotic disease? Why wouldn't the health dept stop her? Those dogs could be dangerous to people like me who have impaired immune systems!!


I wish I had started a separate thread for the Sugar and Spice brucellosis issue...I don't really want to detract from the Adonai seizure. That was my bad - I'm sorry! 

But to answer the question, from my understanding, this kennel found some of their breeding animals had it, so they had the whole kennel tested. The dogs on that page are the ones infected. To a novice like myself, it seems like it's a fixable problem, but from what you all are saying (and everyone is more informed than me, definitely Lilccd obviously), it sounds very dangerous. I did notice that Echo is positive, and he was only born in April. So is his mom (forgot her name). What about the other pups in that litter? (That's a rhetorical question, since I'm sure y'all don't know)


----------



## NatalieAnne (Jul 23, 2016)

Granberry said:


> I wish I had started a separate thread for the Sugar and Spice brucellosis issue...I don't really want to detract from the Adonai seizure. That was my bad - I'm sorry!
> 
> But to answer the question, from my understanding, this kennel found some of their breeding animals had it, so they had the whole kennel tested. The dogs on that page are the ones infected. To a novice like myself, it seems like it's a fixable problem, but from what you all are saying (and everyone is more informed than me, definitely Lilccd obviously), it sounds very dangerous. I did notice that Echo is positive, and he was only born in April. So is his mom (forgot her name). What about the other pups in that litter? (That's a rhetorical question, since I'm sure y'all don't know)



Maybe a mod could come on & separate all the brucellosis responses into a separate thread?


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Granberry said:


> I wish I had started a separate thread for the Sugar and Spice brucellosis issue...I don't really want to detract from the Adonai seizure. That was my bad - I'm sorry!
> 
> But to answer the question, from my understanding, this kennel found some of their breeding animals had it, so they had the whole kennel tested. The dogs on that page are the ones infected. To a novice like myself, it seems like it's a fixable problem, but from what you all are saying (and everyone is more informed than me, definitely Lilccd obviously), it sounds very dangerous. I did notice that Echo is positive, and he was only born in April. So is his mom (forgot her name). What about the other pups in that litter? (That's a rhetorical question, since I'm sure y'all don't know)


I usually give threads like these wide berth just because but basically the breeder is informing the buyer without informing the buyer with a sob story attached so money still can be made off these dogs. In the end the only one that truly wins is the breeder, maybe with spit and a prayer the new owners and the dogs but not without expense on many levels.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

NatalieAnne the Wisconsin Heath Department article makes the situation for pet owners of a dog with Brucellosis very clear. Basically if you want to keep the dog you will make a tremendous adjustment to how you live and severely limit the social and environmental exposures of said dog to the world. 

I don't really have a problem with this topic having been introduced here since it seems clear that someone like Adonai is also the kind of greeder who could have _Brucella canis_ in her kennel and take advantage of unsuspecting folks who wanted to rescue an infected dog and save it while lining her own pockets. And the Sugar and Spice dogs are cockapoos (so part poodle). As far as Sugar and Spice it really seems like the infected dogs should be euthanized rather than being "adopted" to people who will then pay to treat the dog without it actually being possible to guarantee a cure.

Obviously we wouldn't invoke a policy of terminating the lives of people with measles to eradicate measles from the world, but we can do differently with livestock and companion animals to eradicate things like Brucellosis if we want to and can justify needing to do so as being to the distinct benefit of human health, agriculture and economics. Doing so could be done by vaccinating susceptible animals however for _Brucella canis_ there is none available. Absent a financial incentive to develop one the only other method is to cull it out of populations of susceptible animals by eliminating (euthanizing) those that are infected. What would be required is an analysis of the relative risk to people, including costs of medical care, from this disease along with an analysis of the costs of testing for it in dogs and then the cost of the elimination of the infected individuals.

Clearly this isn't a rosy scenario, but neither is the world of greeders and millers who abuse the lives of all sorts of animals (not just dogs, as seems to be the case in the original topic of Adonai) in the hopes of turning a profit.


----------



## NatalieAnne (Jul 23, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> NatalieAnne the Wisconsin Heath Department article makes the situation for pet owners of a dog with Brucellosis very clear. Basically if you want to keep the dog you will make a tremendous adjustment to how you live and severely limit the social and environmental exposures of said dog to the world.
> 
> I don't really have a problem with this topic having been introduced here since it seems clear that someone like Adonai is also the kind of greeder who could have _Brucella canis_ in her kennel and take advantage of unsuspecting folks who wanted to rescue an infected dog and save it while lining her own pockets. And the Sugar and Spice dogs are cockapoos (so part poodle). As far as Sugar and Spice it really seems like the infected dogs should be euthanized rather than being "adopted" to people who will then pay to treat the dog without it actually being possible to guarantee a cure.
> 
> ...



My concern is that prospective dog owners, as well as current dog owners, are knowledgeable of this bacterium & informed of what it means health wise to self, other pets, & the wider public when purchasing a dog once infected. It is a question prospective dog owners might add to a list for the breeder they've chosen.

A problem is that people don't always follow protocol, & that may include owners of dogs once infected. Because of this, it is a reminder to dog owners to remain cognizant of this fact & proceed cautiously & at your own discretion when out & about in public with your beloved pets. Possibly one could research periodically if there have been any recent cases in one's area to help allay any fears. 

Though I knew some about brucellosis, I was not aware before doing a more current research of literature that it could never be considered cured. As an immune compromised individual with a new puppy, I find interesting topics popping up on this forum that inspire me to learn more, so that I can make educated decisions I find important for myself & my pets. 

In those situations that concern me I'll try to share, for there may be others who find value in what I've learned.

For the dogs affected in this tragic situation I hope & pray someone healthy & with acres of fenced property would come to their rescue. However, if the price for each dog/puppy happens to be $1600, well then my hope is fairly well extinguished. That seems to be asking a lot of a person.


----------



## iuhippiechick (Jun 9, 2012)

These two topics really should be separated. They are totally different subjects. 

As for the Adonai seizure...I think it's like virtually anything else you see/read in the news...you really should have all of the facts presented before you jump to conclusions, making blind assumptions. 

With modern technology and the constant "need" for the local news to really be able to "get" the story, it's hard to believe..ZERO pictures have been presented to the public. The media was NOT allowed. (Any pictures posted online have been pictures of poodles from other stories.) 

Not all animals were seized. If the conditions were truly deplorable, why were only some animals seized? It doesn't make sense. The HSUS reported they seized the birds, but actually, she surrendered them. The breeder has neighbors supporting her. Some of the seized dogs were in process of being donated as Service dogs. It's sad those dogs have not been allowed to go to their designated owners.


----------



## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Oh no, I wasn't aware until this. I think it is in Montana. So sad.


----------

