# Difference between Moyen/Klein?



## New2Poo (Feb 15, 2017)

Hello,

I have been trying to read about this size poodle, and I can't figure out if they are just two words for the same size dog, or actually different types of medium sized poodles.

Can someone enlighten me?

Thank you!


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Moyen= Medium French
Klien= Medium German
Medium= European Size between Miniature and Standard


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## New2Poo (Feb 15, 2017)

So is the "type" the same on the dogs, or is one for instance bigger boned, another more to the PCA standards?

Or is it really just a different name for the same dog?

What would you call a Moyen bred to a Klein? Or is that not supposed to be done?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

they are the same as I understand


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Moyen and Klein are the same thing, just different languages. In Europe it is an accepted size while here in the Western world it is not. (4 'accepted' sizes in Europe vs 3 'accepted' sizes here) 
It has become a very sought after size, being smaller/lighter than a Standard, but larger than a Miniature. There are breeders breeding 'true' European Moyen/Kleins to American Standards and unfortunately the result 'sometimes' are dogs with structure problems (misaligned jaws & teeth being one) The best Moyen/Klein of course is a Moyen/Klein to Moyen/Klein bred dog.
There are also breeders trying to breed smaller Standards (sm Spoo X sm Spoo) with some success in smaller size without the structural problems.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Mollymuima pretty much summed things up. You will find breeders in the U.S. claiming to breed "moyens" that are just doing standard to mini breedings. The results are often not very pretty--think long and low on leg. I have also heard of some hip problems, e.g., a mismatch between the socket and the ball of the hip.

There are some breeders doing intervariety (standard to mini) for diversity reasons. Because minis are more genetically diverse AND genetically different from standards, this has been posited as a valid approach to maintaining/increasing genetic diversity in standards. Once again, in my observation, there is a conformational price to be paid. I prefer to look to increase genetic diversity via VGL testing and looking for standards that are a good genetic match. 

I say that if you want a 18" or 19" dog, they are out there--they are called oversized show-line miniatures, and there are a fair amount of them, with very nice conformation. That is because mini (and toy) breeders are always working right up against that height limit, and puppies frequently go oversize.


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## New2Poo (Feb 15, 2017)

I say that if you want a 18" or 19" dog, they are out there--they are called oversized show-line miniatures, and there are a fair amount of them, with very nice conformation. That is because mini (and toy) breeders are always working right up against that height limit, and puppies frequently go oversize.[/QUOTE]

Yes, this would be ideal :act-up:

Now if someone would show me where to find these little buggers......I guess they are just not advertised.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

New2Poo said:


> I say that if you want a 18" or 19" dog, they are out there--they are called oversized show-line miniatures, and there are a fair amount of them, with very nice conformation. That is because mini (and toy) breeders are always working right up against that height limit, and puppies frequently go oversize.


Yes, this would be ideal :act-up:

Now if someone would show me where to find these little buggers......I guess they are just not advertised.[/QUOTE]

Hahahaha!!! Yeah, you probably won't get many hits googling for "oversized minis." If you're ever at a dog show and the wicket comes out, watch the mini and toy exhibitors scatter like cockroaches! I would look for show breeders in your area, and mention when you talk to them that you are interested in a larger mini. 

If you let us know where you located, we may be able to make some suggestions.


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## New2Poo (Feb 15, 2017)

[/QUOTE]

Hahahaha!!! Yeah, you probably won't get many hits googling for "oversized minis." If you're ever at a dog show and *the wicket comes out, watch the mini and toy exhibitors scatter like cockroaches! * I would look for show breeders in your area, and mention when you talk to them that you are interested in a larger mini. 

If you let us know where you located, we may be able to make some suggestions.[/QUOTE]

:heh: OH MY, started to giggle at my desk!! That is funny!!! I can't stop imagining it now......

There is a show somewhere around Kansas City next week...Mar 9-11th. I have to look it up to see where exactly it is. I'm hoping to be able to drive up there one of the days and take a peek. Anywhere around the Midwest I would be able to travel to.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Noelle is the result of one of those parings between a Standard and a mini. The standard poodle was her great grandmother.




























Noelle is 18.5" at the shoulder and 20 pounds. It's a nice size for me. Big enough to work as a diabetes alert dog, small enough to fit under a Starbucks table. I hope this helps you get an idea of the size.


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