# How are the breed standards changed?



## CurlyDog (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm curious about something. As purely a pet owner with a better than average interest in the world of breeding and showing, I'm curious how the standards are changed. It seems to me that they are fixed, but should they be? This comes to mind due to the debate regarding buying a dog from a show breeder who strives to maintain the breed standard. So while this has obvious benefits, what do you think of the issues of changing the standards? How is that done? Some things that come to mind: in collies, eyes are a problem. Why is the classic look more important than health? In poodles, why are we still docking tails? 

How does it all work?

Thanks!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

The breed clubs are the ones who decide the standards need to change. I recently found out the standard on ear leathers has been changed. Used to be the leathers were to be long and come close to the end of the Poodles muzzle. Judges would pull the leathers toward the end of the nose in the show ring to verify the length. I noticed they no longer bother, and when I inquired was told the length no longer matters. I would think the long leathers served a purpose when Poodles were used more for hunting/retrieving. A Bloodhounds long leathers and loose, floppy lips and skin are so when they are on the trail of something and have their noses to the ground, the loose skin and long ears lifts the scent to their nose. So, have we now lost something that was essential in making a Poodle a Poodle? In my opinion, yes we have. Others may have a different opinion. And I have also been told it is now quite alright for a show dog to have front feet that point ever so slightly east and west, which was entirely undesirable when my Mom and I showed many moons ago. Is this acceptable now because the chests in the breed have become so poor? In my opinion, yes. Most feet that point easty/westy do because the dogs chest is lacking. Just a couple of things I have noticed or been told lately at the shows that trouble me.

We are still docking tails because it is the norm. A dog with an undocked tail in the show ring in North America, is at an obvious disadvantage, regardless of how well set or well carried the tail is. And until it becomes illegal to dock it will be the norm for show Poodles.


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## CurlyDog (Aug 20, 2008)

Hmm... Some things are hard to change. I hope the tail docking becomes illegal here. 

Thanks for your thoughts!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

My puppies breeder bred for a strong chest, choosing an Eastern European line to bring in for that. My pup has a solid chest, straight front legs and tight feet, but she is stockier than the AKC show poodles- her bones seem a little heavier. She is 19 inches and 28 pounds (5.5 months), which seems heavier for her current size than most. Her front legs appear a touch shorter like her dams, too. 

So- if you breed for a good chest, properly angled shoulders, solid rear and hips, you are going to get heavier poodles, maybe even shorter legs. How would that fit into the standard? You can't have it all with graceful, somewhat fine long legs, but with a solid chest and rear, can you? It isn't genetically possible, is it?

I find my puppies breeding exceedingly interesting and am enjoying watching her develop. On one side she has one miniature 3 generations back (American champion lines) with Standard poodle champions. There are a couple of imported European conformation true caniche moyen several generations back on that side, too. On her dams side she has this stockier Eastern European line mixed with a Canadian preformance line. 

Her sires line is the one with the miniature, yet he had long/graceful legs for his size (he was 22 inches). Her dam has the somewhat shorter legs (preformance line? Eastern European line?). My puppies head is gorgeous, her bite great, her feet are good, her chest is solid as it appears her rear is. Her thighs are muscular without being coarse. Her front legs appear a tad shortish like her dam, her rear legs are long, but angled so they line up with the shorter front and her back is straight. When I pet her she feels solid. She will not be a large standard (should just creep into the 22 inch range). 

I would like her more graceful which the longer legs do. It would be nice if she was a little less solid, but her timing when she prances/trots is great and she is quite 'showy' and sparkly. I will show you guys pictures stacked in a couple weeks when she turns 6 months. Maybe I will even be able to show you a little video of her moving? 
She is interesting and definitely a poodle with a full coat and personality, but a little different than the AKC show poodles. You'll see what I mean. 

Fascinating stuff!


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

What I keep hearing in my head is...there's no perfect animal.

I have noticed some judges pull the ear leather toward the nose (remember I show AKC) but in poodles it is not part of the breed standard - or rather Length of ear leather is not. The placement of the ears on the head still is.

Type - and this is from reading and researching old PV and PR - which I get to thanks to Michele sharing her 20+ years of subscriptions with me - seems more elegant to me. More length of leg, heads have refined - in some instances too much for my tasted.

With more bend of stifle I think there was some sacrifice of chests. In AKC I haven't seen eastie westie be ok. A handler would train the dog to "step" so you wouldn't see it. They are breeding - now the rears are there - for better chests again - and this I say because Lombardi's pictures have been making the rounds with lots of ooohs and aahhs over his chest. It's funny because he's out of a red (Carter x Ruby).

Different judges seem to like different things. I've heard judges referred to as "head hunters" - they really like clean beautiful heads, the "tooth fairy" - guess what she is interested in! ha There are those I have noted that love side movement and could seem to care less about down and back and stack. One judge I've noted loves leggy animals. One judge I have noted likes heavy - older type.

Not sure that completely answers your question. The best thing would be to get your hands on some older PV and PR. You can learn so much from them.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards

PS Tail docking - I like the balance it gives. All my pups were docked keeping in mind each might be the pick. I've gotten comments asking if I docked - as the pups all have a longer tail dock (only a 1/3 off at most). Pet breeders tend to dock much shorter.

The visual is a circle. It's also one of the best descriptions and has helped me with my grooming. From the tail to the rosets to the bottom of the jacket around the chest to the topknot to the tail makes a circle. It's like the poodle is in a bubble if you visualized the line. Not sure I explained it well enough....


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