# Breeder says they don't do health testing.. should I be concerned?



## curiousmoi452 (10 mo ago)

Hi all - I'm a first timer to poodles, and I just found a breeder that I reached out to who seems great. Had a great chat with her on the phone and she seems very knowledgeable about the toys she breeds. Has been breeding for several years now. However when I asked if she does health checks on the parents, she said that she doesn't, because poodles generally don't have the health problems that other breeds have (according to her long-time vet). The breeder says that it's like a birth certificate, the testing only tells you who your parents are, and not how healthy you are.

Is this something that I should be concerned about? Is it a must that breeders should have health tests done of their parents? What other kinds of questions can I ask to better vet them?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

yes, because poodles have health issues like hip dysplasia, legs perth, luxating patellas, Progressive retina atrophy depending on the variety


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## curiousmoi452 (10 mo ago)

twyla said:


> yes, because poodles have health issues like hip dysplasia, legs perth, luxating patellas, Progressive retina atrophy depending on the variety


Are those typically genetic?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

yes


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## curiousmoi452 (10 mo ago)

twyla said:


> yes


Ah, ok thank you. That's concerning then, I guess I should try to find another breeder... although it's been so difficult finding one without a crazy long waitlist.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

pretty much the case with reputable breeders with a long wait list, I am hoping some of our Canadian members will pipe in with recommendations


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

curiousmoi452 said:


> because poodles generally don't have health problems that other breeds have (according to her long-time vet


This is...just not right. Oof.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

curiousmoi452 said:


> However when I asked if she does health checks on the parents, she said that she doesn't, because poodles generally don't have the health problems that other breeds have (according to her long-time vet).


Um, yeah, they might not have problems common to other breeds, because they aren't that other breed. I'm not going to worry about a poodle passing along Myostatin Deficiency, because a poodle is not a whippet. That doesn't mean poodles don't get poodle problems. I would definitely want a small poodle screened for luxating patella and PRA.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I agree that luxating patella and PRA are big issues for toy poodles. I believe they also need eye screenings. It is quite likely that this breeder doesn't have a waitlist _because_ they are not a reputable ethical breeder. Breeders like this are great talkers, think used car salesman. It is worth waiting for a well bred puppy.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I missed the part that you were looking for a toy, litters are small so yea there is a wait list. I am on a wait list but probably won't see my silver beige girl until next year, this is because breeder tend to hold back female and also I want a specific color, but the breeder tests for a lot and is well regard her toy are in agility and in conformation


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

curiousmoi452 said:


> Hi all - I'm a first timer to poodles, and I just found a breeder that I reached out to who seems great. Had a great chat with her on the phone and she seems very knowledgeable about the toys she breeds. Has been breeding for several years now. However when I asked if she does health checks on the parents, she said that she doesn't, because poodles generally don't have the health problems that other breeds have (according to her long-time vet). The breeder says that it's like a birth certificate, the testing only tells you who your parents are, and not how healthy you are.
> 
> Is this something that I should be concerned about? Is it a must that breeders should have health tests done of their parents? What other kinds of questions can I ask to better vet them?


Run, don't walk, away from this breeder! Of course poodles have genetic disease issues! A responsible breeder tests his/her breeding stock and breeds to males who have been tested clear of genetic defects. 

Below are the recommended health tests for each variety. A reputable breeder will have tested the parents (puppies cannot be tested). Health testing is not cheap, so well-bred puppies usually run at least $1200.
*Toy poodles*:
• DNA Test for prcd-Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)from an OFA-approved laboratory.
• Yearly Eye Exam by a boarded ACVO veterinary ophthalmologist.
• Patellar Luxation: OFA Evaluation.
*Miniature poodles*:
• DNA Test for prcd-Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)from an OFA-approved laboratory.
• Yearly Eye Exam by a boarded ACVO veterinary ophthalmologist.
• Patellar Luxation: OFA Evaluation.
• Hip Dysplasia: OFA or PennHIP Evaluation
*Standard poodles*:
• Hip Dysplasia: OFA or PennHIP Evaluation.
• Yearly Eye Exam by a boarded ACVO veterinary ophthalmologist.
• At least one of the following three tests:
OFA Thyroid Evaluation from an OFA approved laboratory.
OFA Sebaceous Adenitis (SA) Evaluation by an OFA approved dermatopathologist.
Heart Evaluation by an ACVIM boarded veterinary cardiologist.


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## curiousmoi452 (10 mo ago)

Thanks everyone for the responses!


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

There seems to be a good reason this particular breeder doesn't have a long waitlist.


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## Piper Bear (Apr 12, 2021)

i am in Southern Ontario. Not sure where in Canada you are. I have a mini poodle from a wonderful breeder and can give you a few names of reputable mini poodle breeders I found in my search for Piper. Let me know.


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## toby2021 (11 mo ago)

Yes above. Minis generally have larger litters and the waitlist isn’t as long. Some minis are like large toys, you can ask the breeder about expected sizes


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## curiousmoi452 (10 mo ago)

Piper Bear said:


> i am in Southern Ontario. Not sure where in Canada you are. I have a mini poodle from a wonderful breeder and can give you a few names of reputable mini poodle breeders I found in my search for Piper. Let me know.


Yes please, that would be wonderful! Thank you so much!


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

curiousmoi452 said:


> when I asked if she does health checks on the parents, she said that she doesn't, because poodles generally don't have the health problems that other breeds have (according to her long-time vet).


Hi, and welcome! I would run far, far from this breeder. Poodles have a ton of health problems in the breed. You want to start off on the right foot and give your pup the best possible chance at life. I would look for a breeder who health tests for everything and breeds for genetic diversity. I'm glad Piper Bear is able to give you some reputable names  Good luck!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Excellent info and suggestions above.

Since it seems that researching and selecting a quality, conscientious breeder is probably new to you, here's some additional tips.
You can also read information directly from one of our members who is a very well-respected breeder here.

*We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.*
What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the quality, conscientious breeders are _always _breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions but are flawless to us .

*It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from.*
For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US and Canada. A bottom-line difference is between those who are breeding primarily for profit and those who are breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breeding's are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

*About reviews*,
a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

*Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance.*
Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

*The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet".*
Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

_I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks._


*Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. *The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams and, for miniatures and toys there is also one DNA test.*

The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.

There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚

Miniature Poodle (just in case you expand your choices)

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
The PRA test is a DNA test. The others are physical exams done by a qualified vet.
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.

*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy*
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety recommended by the Poodle Club of America. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed*.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

*Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times*
and that wait is stretched well into 2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

*When you start making contacts*, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

*Color preferences* are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. Most poodle colors fade.

*Gender preferences* will also limit your options.

*Temperament and personality* are lifelong traits.

*Be prepared to spend* in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

*Be prepared to travel* outside your preferred area.

*As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are*
those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience". A breeder using marketing terms like teacup, royal, giant don't really know poodles in relation to the breed standard. Pricing differently for size or color is also marketing.

*Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights
(*breeding rights which allow the next generation of pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission. A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

*One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.*
That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.

USA
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America

Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America

As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
_Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred._


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


To start a search for a breeder, use the official Poodle Clubs first. PF has a lot of resources to view also, and individual recommendations will be made too. Compare those to the information above for a good shot at a quality, conscientious breeder and a happy, healthy poodle.

-----

A note on "Champion bloodlines" or variations of...

The phrase "Championship _lines_" is nearly meaningless unless, as Phaz23 points out, the dam and sire are the champions, and their dams and sires...

"Championship" counts in the conformation ring, to prove that each generation is meeting the breed standard. It's not a given, an inherent trait that gets passed down.

If/when importing is possible and you're also considering a miniature there are some good miniature breeders in Minnesota.

If Minnesota is in your travel range there are some very nice miniature breeders there.

*• Minnesota
Safranne Poodles, Specializing in Performance Miniature Poodles, Winona, MN*
Safranne Poodles, Specializing in Performance Miniature Poodles, Winona, MN
safrannepoodles.com
M PFM
*Absolute Silver, Miniature Poodles, AGILITY, CONFORMATION and OBEDIENCE, Winona, MN*
Absolute Silver, Miniature Poodles, AGILITY, CONFORMATION and OBEDIENCE, Winona, MN
absolutesilverminiaturepoodles.com
M
www.allurepoodles.net/
M
*Adelheid Poodles and Havanese, Rochester, Minnesota*
Adelheid Poodles and Havanese, Rochester, Minnesota
adelheidpoodles.com
S/M

Also, Amity Valley Amity Valley Kennels - Home (amitykennels.com)


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There's some redundancy here but I'm adding it anyway 

I haven't yet found the health testing specified by the Poodle Club of Canada. Their site offers a link to the OFA so it's possible they recommend the same health testing as the Poodle Club of America.

The DNA/genetic panels that are being seen more frequently now are very helpful but they're only a part of the testing. That's doing things halfway.

I found this on a PCC word document for the Poodle Health Registry but don't know if it's current recommended testing.

Possible testing:

Hips
Miniature and Standard Poodles - Specialist category requiring submission of an OVC, OFA, Penn Hip Report or certificate from another registering body

Eyes
All Poodles
Normal - an ACVO examination form with both eyes marked Normal
Condition - an ACVO examination form without both eyes marked Normal
* - a condition not known to be harmful to the breed

SA (sebaceous adenitis) -
Standard Poodles (usually) - consists of a written evaluation from a Veterinary Histopathologist

VwD (von willebrand's disease) -
Miniature and Standard Poodles - Blood or DNA results from a qualified lab marked Normal

Patellas -
Toy and Miniature Poodles - both knees were found to be free of luxation when checked by a vet

Addison's Disease -
Standard Poodles - blood test results show a normal range, from a qualified lab

Thyroid -
All Poodles - blood test results show a normal range, from a qualified lab

NOTE: Hip Certification, patellas and DNA tests are lifetime - all other conditions must be
retested


Here's the 2022 Poodle Club of Canada Breeder List
Microsoft Word - PCC2022Breeders 1 19.doc (poodleclubcanada.club)

*Canadian Kennel Club Breeder List*
Puppy List & Approved Breeders | CKC

and the recognized Poodle Clubs. They may have members who serve as a breeder referral.

*Recognized Clubs
Search Results*

*Miniature Poodle Club Of Ontario
Province: *Ontario
*Approved Events: *Junior Handling, Conformation, Unofficial Events*Ottawa Valley Poodle Club
Province: *Ontario
*Website*: http://www.ottawavalleypoodleclub.ca
*Approved Events: *Obedience, Conformation, Rally Obedience, Agility Trials*Poodle Club Of Alberta
Province: *Alberta
*Approved Events: *Junior Handling, Obedience, Conformation, Unofficial Events, Rally Obedience*Poodle Club Of Canada
Province: *Ontario
*Website*: http://www.poodleclubcanada.club
*Approved Events: *Scent Detection, Junior Handling, Obedience, Conformation, Working Certificate Tests, Rally Obedience, Retriever Field Trials, Unofficial Events, Agility Trials*Poodle Club Of Ontario
Province: *Ontario
*Approved Events: *Obedience, Conformation, Rally Obedience*Poodle Specialty Club Of British Columbia
Province: *British Columbia
*Website*: https://www.poodlespecialtyclubofbc.com
*Approved Events: *Obedience, Conformation, Unofficial Events


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## Piper Bear (Apr 12, 2021)

curiousmoi452 said:


> Yes please, that would be wonderful! Thank you so much!


Hello, I found three reputable mini poodle breeders in my search for Piper 2.5 years ago: Denali Poodles, Adanac Poodles, and Bellefleet Poodles. All three of these breeders compete in conformation and are members of the Mini Poodle Club of Ontario. You will find that their dogs are in-size minis as they must be a certain height to compete. At two years old, Piper is about 12.5 pounds and 13.5 inches tall She is very strong and sturdy but easy to hold in your arms. Good luck!!


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## curiousmoi452 (10 mo ago)

Piper Bear said:


> Hello, I found three reputable mini poodle breeders in my search for Piper 2.5 years ago: Denali Poodles, Adanac Poodles, and Bellefleet Poodles. All three of these breeders compete in conformation and are members of the Mini Poodle Club of Ontario. You will find that their dogs are in-size minis as they must be a certain height to compete. At two years old, Piper is about 12.5 pounds and 13.5 inches tall She is very strong and sturdy but easy to hold in your arms. Good luck!!


Thank you! Mind if I ask, did you have to wait very long on a wait list? Although it looks like you got Piper pre-Covid so I'm sure it wasn't as long back then. It seems like most breeders have very long wait lists right now in Ontario.


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## Piper Bear (Apr 12, 2021)

curiousmoi452 said:


> Thank you! Mind if I ask, did you have to wait very long on a wait list? Although it looks like you got Piper pre-Covid so I'm sure it wasn't as long back then. It seems like most breeders have very long wait lists right now in Ontario.


We actually “reserved” a puppy just a few days after the state of emergency was declared in Ontario. Piper and her litter mates had just been born (March 12, 2020). So we really only waited about 10 weeks for her. Picked her up end of May 2020. I would definitely contact her. She did not have litters for a while during covid lockdowns as she wanted her puppies to go to people who wanted them and not because they were hom due to lockdowns.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Waitlists are very normal for quality. conscientious breeders. This is because they aren't breeding as a "business" although there are some unavoidable business factors.

Their living income is from their regular jobs. Breeding is more of a "calling", something they do because they love their chosen breed and want to contribute to making the breed stronger for the future. What they clear from breeding is usually used to finance the next litter. 

Toy and miniature litter sizes are small, usually from 1-4 pups per litter. 

They may not breed at all in any given year, or may only breed one or two or three litters in a years time. They may not breed until their waitlist is full, to make sure their pups that they or a co-owner breeder don't keep will be spoken for before they're even conceived. 

So, small number of quality breeders, small number of breedings in any given year, small numbers of pups born all make for a small pool of available pups. 

Although quality breeders will sometimes have a pup available because a family backed out of their place on the list, I'd be wary of a breeder that always has puppies available, or says "I just happen to have a leftover pup..." without there being a darn good reason. 

This is a direct quote from someone not on this forum on how they got their puppy. As I researched the "breeder" it turned out to be a very large volume operation, with over 900 to 1000 dogs at their facility almost every year since 2014. They also sell to pet stores. The poster stated that she didn't want to buy from a mill or pet store but that's exactly what she did, in spite of good advice given.

"I had reached out to everybody for suggestions on where to get a puppy. So much great advice and gave me a lot to think about. This puppy just kind of fell into my lap. *I wasn’t planning on looking for a puppy that day but I had a couple of hours to kill and here he is.* It was love at first sight and not so with all the other pups. *They were all so hyper scratching and biting me. This little guy just sat there shaking.* But once I started petting him he started licking my hand. And he looked at me with those big brown eyes and I knew I had found my new buddy. I continue to reach out for suggestions on a veterinarian and a groomer and you guys have been so great. I wanted to share some pics and videos. I named him Extra. *The guy that I got him from said he was a left over from a litter of puppies that the breeder didn’t have a buyer for. He explained that this puppy was “extra“. I said “do you mean extra as in leftover?” The guy sort of shrugged his shoulders and that’s when I said “maybe extra as an extra special!“ "*

That's a salesman, not a breeder. In fact their USDA license is as a dealer, not even as a breeder. The pup came to her with no vaccination records, no registration papers, just puppy kisses and big brown eyes.


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## toby2021 (11 mo ago)

Yeah to above for breeders. Add Sanvar and Bibelot. We got our mini from Bibelot. It turned out not that long of a wait as she had a litter due in 10 days with availability. I would say many breeders will have a few months‘ wait but you never know, people back out sometimes.


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## Piper Bear (Apr 12, 2021)

toby2021 said:


> Yeah to above for breeders. Add Sanvar and Bibelot. We got our mini from Bibelot. It turned out not that long of a wait as she had a litter due in 10 days with availability. I would say many breeders will have a few months‘ wait but you never know, people back out sometimes.


I came across those breeder names when we were initially looking. Glad to hear there are some good quality mini poodle breeders in southern Ontario.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

curiousmoi452 said:


> Hi all - I'm a first timer to poodles, and I just found a breeder that I reached out to who seems great. Had a great chat with her on the phone and she seems very knowledgeable about the toys she breeds. Has been breeding for several years now. However when I asked if she does health checks on the parents, she said that she doesn't, because poodles generally don't have the health problems that other breeds have (according to her long-time vet). The breeder says that it's like a birth certificate, the testing only tells you who your parents are, and not how healthy you are.
> 
> Is this something that I should be concerned about? Is it a must that breeders should have health tests done of their parents? What other kinds of questions can I ask to better vet them?


Don't bother asking her any other questions, just walk away. Any "breeder" that would tell you such nonsense as she "doesn't health test because poodles generally don't have the health problems other breeds have" (of course they don't because, though some issues may be in common with other breeds, poodles also have their own specific issues which should be tested clear for before being bred) is just BSing you, plain and simple, and hoping you will fall for it. Any responsible breeder, as far as health testing, tests their dogs to CHIC standards, or above. Don't work with a breeder that gives you any excuses for why they don't. If they are trying to pawn off DNA testing/genetic testing as "health tested", don't fall for it. That is only a part of what should be done for each variety of poodles, and they each individually absolutely have a number of health issues that breeding pairs should be screened for.


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## ivy1 (12 mo ago)

I had a toy with a bad back, heart murmur, and seizures. I would recommend just one rabies vaxxxx and titer to prove immunity. Not before 6 months. Get a waiver. Search out a holistic vet. I gave one Distemper and one Parvo. And not before 16 weeks. And then a titer for peace of mind. Vaxxes hurt little dogs and cause health problems. Some holistic vets will lower the dosage for toy. You can also titer after 16 weeks before giving any shots. Rabies vaxxes caused my dog's health issues. Most Breeders health test. This was not available in the past. Also keep your toy away from any chemicals inside or out.


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