# "Roach backed" poodles?



## *heather*




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## Stacydub

In your opinion...is Helmet Roach backed?

Sorry...the pics are the most recent I have....but he was playing with my friend's pup.


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## Harley_chik

The only thing I could find was an illustration in the standard on PCA's website. It's on page 13 if you want to check it out.


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## Fluffyspoos

What IS it though?


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## *heather*

Roach back: A back arched or convex to some degree along the topline


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## wishpoo

It is just incorrect skeletal structure of the spine. Every breed has a "standard" of how it should look-like, including a top-line (how top of the back should look -like). With some breeds (roach) line could be normal - for poodle it is not. 

It is not a defect - it is just not how poodle should look like. It is unattractive and gives a dog an appearance of defensive, shy posture - complete opposite of what poodle is all about. 

The poodle on the photo (black one) is obviously coming from completely inexperienced breeder, for many more reasons but just "roach" back ...


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## Fluffyspoos

I think the one in the photo is soaken wet though, which may explain why it looks so icky, but I can see what you mean about the shyness the back gives it.


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## KPoos

Stacydub said:


> In your opinion...is Helmet Roach backed?
> 
> Sorry...the pics are the most recent I have....but he was playing with my friend's pup.


I guess slightly. He doesn't have a straight back but it's not really bad.


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## wishpoo

Fluffyspoo - No, black poodle has many structural faults unfortunately : (. No matter if it is wet or not...


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## *heather*

wishpoo said:


> Fluffyspoo - No, black poodle has many structural faults unfortunately : (. No matter if it is wet or not...


I know nothing about this little black guy, I just googled _roach back _to find a picture for this thread... he looks so sad,  the poor little soul! 
I have to admit I do love the look of a nice perfectly straight top line, but it doesn't change the fact that all poodles are sweet and deserve to be loved!!


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## roxy25

watch video about the body they show a red dog with a roach back , if you watch the first video they show it standing and you can see its roached back along with a straight front which is a fault.

http://www.dog.com/dog-breeds/poodle/


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## Fluffyspoos

Hey, thanks for linking that, Roxy! I just watched all the chaptures and had no idea all the specific things that were judged. I only new about the tail and feed, having no idea about the shoulders, eyes, chin, ears, ect.

It would seem like finding the perfect dog to show is pretty tough!


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## roxy25

Fluffyspoos said:


> Hey, thanks for linking that, Roxy! I just watched all the chaptures and had no idea all the specific things that were judged. I only new about the tail and feed, having no idea about the shoulders, eyes, chin, ears, ect.
> 
> It would seem like finding the perfect dog to show is pretty tough!


There is no such thing as the perfect dog  All dogs will have faults but some minor and some severe. This is where the points are added up.


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## Harley_chik

That is a great video! Everyone who thinks conformation is just a beauty contest should watch it. It really explains how conformation affect movement. 

I think it's funny that people think Poodles, especially show poodles, are a froo froo breed. They're one of few breeds, where the show dogs can actually still perform. Even the little guys are built well and are muscular. Show Labs, Border Collies and GSDs could never do a job. Poodle breeders deserve credit for that, they've maintained the dogs well. 

I also found the black and white show clip interesting. Everyone always says show people have exaggerated the clip in the last decade or so. The dog in that clip had more hair than I've ever seen!


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## roxy25

Harley_chik said:


> That is a great video! Everyone who thinks conformation is just a beauty contest should watch it. It really explains how conformation affect movement.
> 
> I think it's funny that people think Poodles, especially show poodles, are a froo froo breed. They're one of few breeds, where the show dogs can actually still perform. Even the little guys are built well and are muscular. Show Labs, Border Collies and GSDs could never do a job. Poodle breeders deserve credit for that, they've maintained the dogs well.
> 
> I also found the black and white show clip interesting. Everyone always says show people have exaggerated the clip in the last decade or so. The dog in that clip had more hair than I've ever seen!


I agree there are only a few breeds that can still do their job( the show dogs) Breeders have kept poodles in great condition.

If you guys buy any book by anna katherine nicholas ( poodless) you can see a lot more hair on poodles back in the day than now. We made our tops knots bigger but the hair around the chest used to be HUGE lol


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## wishpoo

Heatrher - of course all dogs deserve to be loved !!!!!! Every god's creature deserves love ! I hope I did not sound "unloving" about poor black poo : (((- I was just discussing the structural faults : ((. I would take him/her any day in my home to love ! 

Unfortunately, not all structural "faults" are that benign when dogs are bred without planning or expertise. What might look as just far from standard can also become a big problem for a dog. If hips and shoulders are not well placed and developed - dog might end up with VERY painful joints . Also, if eyes are too protruding they are exposed to injuries and infection. If dog has overbite or underbite it can make chewing difficult and even cause sores in the mouth. I can go on and on with how much "looks" are actually important for the health and function of any dog. 

Roxy - thanks for the video posting - great educational tool about confirmation as well as sturdiness of the poodle : ))))) !!!!!!


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## Harley_chik

Wishpoo, you made a great point, it was also pointed out in the video Roxy posted. People who breed "just pets" would have you believe that showing and the official standard are just about looks, but it's so much more than that.


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## thestars

These are not poodles but they show clear "roach" backs.
http://shepherdcentral.com/a/quotroachbackedquot-gsd_post1172.html


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## Fluffyspoos

thestars said:


> These are not poodles but they show clear "roach" backs.
> http://shepherdcentral.com/a/quotroachbackedquot-gsd_post1172.html


Aha! Then I was right! After finding out what ridge back was, I started looking up pictures of dogs that I thought SHOULD have it, which I naturally though of the sight hounds.

I was looking at borzoi's and whippets, but couldn't see it, but I guess they're suppose to have it.


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## frostfirestandards

actually Borzoi should have a slight rise over the loins in a graceful curve. 
Bedlington terriers should have a roached back, if sighthounds have roached backs they can not run as fast or as powerfully. 

Alot of people think almost of caricatures of sighthounds sometimes, but these are not correct or functional.


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## roxy25

frostfirestandards said:


> actually Borzoi should have a slight rise over the loins in a graceful curve.
> Bedlington terriers should have a roached back, if sighthounds have roached backs they can not run as fast or as powerfully.
> 
> Alot of people think almost of caricatures of sighthounds sometimes, but these are not correct or functional.


Correct Bedlington Terriers have roached backs.









Italian greyhounds do 









West german show lines GSD's do


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## roxy25

Greyhounds don't 









Borzoi's don't 









( of course you will see some dogs with roach backs but it is incorrect, just think of a cheetah they don;t have roach backs and can run fast.)

DDR or east german GSD don't


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## wishpoo

Ughhhhhhhhh :wacko:- I HATE what they did to German Sh. here in the USA !!!! First time I saw one in the park I thought it was a severely crippled dog !!!! I find it really completely crazy ! The movement is so out of whack and what GS is all about - I have no idea who got the idea that those kind of hips are either esthetically pleasing and are definitely NOT "better moving" for GS !!! I can only imagine what is % of hip problems in those dogs : (((

Just my opinion ....


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## KPoos

wishpoo said:


> Ughhhhhhhhh :wacko:- I HATE what they did to German Sh. here in the USA !!!! First time I saw one in the park I thought it was a severely crippled dog !!!! I find it really completely crazy ! The movement is so out of whack and what GS is all about - I have no idea who got the idea that those kind of hips are either esthetically pleasing and are definitely NOT "better moving" for GS !!! I can only imagine what is % of hip problems in those dogs : (((
> 
> Just my opinion ....


I find their movement odd. I don't know how you can have a working GSD with that strange movement. It's almost like they creep forward instead of move forward. I don't like it. I don't understand why people in the US want to change so much of what they do in European countries where the breeds orginated.


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## Harley_chik

You know when show people get ahold of working breeds it tends to happen. I was just looking at goat breeder's website and they also sell working Border Collies. Their dogs look nothing like show dogs, which are well on their way to being the next GSD. Same goes for Jack Russels and Aussies. Don't get me started on most of the sporting group.


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## roxy25

wishpoo said:


> Ughhhhhhhhh :wacko:- I HATE what they did to German Sh. here in the USA !!!! First time I saw one in the park I thought it was a severely crippled dog !!!! I find it really completely crazy ! The movement is so out of whack and what GS is all about - I have no idea who got the idea that those kind of hips are either esthetically pleasing and are definitely NOT "better moving" for GS !!! I can only imagine what is % of hip problems in those dogs : (((
> 
> Just my opinion ....


Well the west german dogs are not shown in AKC they do not meet AKC standard our dogs look like this lol


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## Dogsinstyle

Here is a great site to see what breeds used to look like- I much prefer them.
Carole
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Pietoro/Dog Breed Historical Pictures/?start=0


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## Dogsinstyle

Another site showing GSD's over the years.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/siegershow_winners.html


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## jester's mom

I hate the look of GSD show dogs. I think they ruined them and if I were ever looking for a GSD I would never buy from show lines... YUCK! I would look for working lined ones with sensible, proper form.


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## KPoos

Dogsinstyle said:


> Another site showing GSD's over the years.
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/siegershow_winners.html


Oh my word! Why have they ruined this breed with the roach backs? What purpose does a roach back serve in a GSD? They look odd and they do not move well.


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## Fluffyspoos

Yeah =/ they destroyed the GSD's backs. I hear the working dogs in police work don't have that bred into them.


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## KPoos

Fluffyspoos said:


> Yeah =/ they destroyed the GSD's backs. I hear the working dogs in police work don't have that bred into them.


I would hope not. I have no idea how they'd have drive and be able to sustain long periods of running and searching if that was their job. I wish I knew the point. Most show people tend to breed towards beauty and away from the actual working aspect of the breed. I don't see the beauty in that.


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## wishpoo

I am glad everybody agrees !!! GS is one of the most common dogs found in Europe , many many people have them as pets ! I knew quiet a few in my neighborhood where I grew up and they all were majestic, strong, loyal and very calm and stable dogs. American GS is not only dragging his hind feet like a cripple , many are nervous , even shy dogs !!!! The look and character are completely altered : (((. 

If anybody wants a GS as a family dog - I strongly urge you to import or find a breeder who is breeding imported dogs. They are really as day and night in comparison :rolffleyes:


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## Dogsinstyle

This is worth a watch. Crufts was pulled from TV after this was shown.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=44215931


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## taxtell

Thank you for sharing this video...

It's making me paranoid about our Cavalier, though!


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## jester's mom

Dogsinstyle said:


> This is worth a watch. Crufts was pulled from TV after this was shown.
> http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=44215931


Geesh! I have wondered about some of the breeds I have seen that are so extreme in their type/looks, wondered if it was good for them at all! This sure is an eye opener! Breeds should be bred for the function they originated for, not for a beauty pageant or weird structure just because some breeders/judges think it makes for a "neat" outline. If the structure doesn't help the dog perform its original function, then it should not be bred.

I know I may get flamed on this part, but I have never thought that any breed that needs to have a cesarean in order to "get the pups out" because the pups heads are too big to pass through the canal or for any other reason, should not be being bred. If the breed is unable to whelp its own young unaided... and I mean by extreme aid, not the owner standing by in case of an unexpected problem..... then, to me, it already has a problem strike against it before it even gets born.

I think the AKC is VERY REMISS in being soooo picky about the color of the poodle in the ring. We need to keep the gene pool wide and open. Health, temperament and working structure should be the top of the list, not color... unless, of course, a certain color was linked to a genetic fault that caused blindness or something. 

IN FACT, I wonder it it would be wise for the parent breed clubs (all of them... AKC, UKC, CKC) to not allow young dogs to compete for points toward their championships! Maybe it would be the best thing for all breeds if a dog/bitch were not allowed to compete toward championship till they had the minimum test requirements for their breed - the major problems that can occur in their breed - and a certificate of documentation given to the parent club that would allow them to enter shows. I am not saying that pups should not be shown, they need to be out in the atmosphere of the show at a young age, but maybe even holding off on allowing the CH. title to be given till all tests are done??? I don't know, this is just something that is running through my head. But the main thing is, it is a shame that a lot of breeds are ruined in the name of "beauty" instead of judging them on the structure, temperament and ability to do the job they were bred for.


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## roxy25

Fluffyspoos said:


> Yeah =/ they destroyed the GSD's backs. I hear the working dogs in police work don't have that bred into them.


Yes police dogs are either eastern german GSD or DDR the western show lines are rarely used for work by police nor are the AKC dogs. 

I just came from an AKC show and we saw a black GSD that looked pretty good but his back legs where sooooooo WEAK !

here are some more real working GSD's 

















even the white gsd people kept them looking better than the AKC gsd's



















I will start a new thread we all got of topic lol


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## KPoos

Dogsinstyle said:


> This is worth a watch. Crufts was pulled from TV after this was shown.
> http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=44215931


What a moving video. It almost makes me feel like a fool for wanting to show a dog at all. The level of denial in breeders is unbelievable. 

I agree that all dog breeds should be bred for functionality as pet first and beauty second. I've got to sit on this a while to be able to form my thoughts.


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## Harley_chik

jester's mom said:


> Geesh! I have wondered about some of the breeds I have seen that are so extreme in their type/looks, wondered if it was good for them at all! This sure is an eye opener! Breeds should be bred for the function they originated for, not for a beauty pageant or weird structure just because some breeders/judges think it makes for a "neat" outline. If the structure doesn't help the dog perform its original function, then it should not be bred.
> 
> I know I may get flamed on this part, but I have never thought that any breed that needs to have a cesarean in order to "get the pups out" because the pups heads are too big to pass through the canal or for any other reason, should not be being bred. If the breed is unable to whelp its own young unaided... and I mean by extreme aid, not the owner standing by in case of an unexpected problem..... then, to me, it already has a problem strike against it before it even gets born.
> 
> I think the AKC is VERY REMISS in being soooo picky about the color of the poodle in the ring. We need to keep the gene pool wide and open. Health, temperament and working structure should be the top of the list, not color... unless, of course, a certain color was linked to a genetic fault that caused blindness or something.
> 
> IN FACT, I wonder it it would be wise for the parent breed clubs (all of them... AKC, UKC, CKC) to not allow young dogs to compete for points toward their championships! Maybe it would be the best thing for all breeds if a dog/bitch were not allowed to compete toward championship till they had the minimum test requirements for their breed - the major problems that can occur in their breed - and a certificate of documentation given to the parent club that would allow them to enter shows. I am not saying that pups should not be shown, they need to be out in the atmosphere of the show at a young age, but maybe even holding off on allowing the CH. title to be given till all tests are done??? I don't know, this is just something that is running through my head. But the main thing is, it is a shame that a lot of breeds are ruined in the name of "beauty" instead of judging them on the structure, temperament and ability to do the job they were bred for.


I agree with so much of your post! I've often thought that about showing such young dogs. What's the point of getting a Ch on a dog that's not fully grown? I've gone so far to ask the AKC (in email) why they won't consider proof of health testing before issueing a CH. I never received an answer.

I've always loved the Bulldog, but in my heart, I know you're right about breed that can't reproduce naturally. It's really sad.


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## tannerokeefe

omg, that was VERY disturbing and appalling!!


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## wishpoo

I feel sick to my stomach  !!!! What a horrible , horrible thing going on : (((

I actually can not even put any comment ....what can one say to all of that : ((((... One just starts wishing Karma does exist after all :fish: !!!!!


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## Purple Poodle

Just to comment in the link posted about the BBC program. I had heard a lot of talk about it on another forum I visit and I just now watched it myself. I think the anti-show people really made an impact on the non show people with the shock factor. I think its absurd to compare breeding dogs to the Nazi movement.

Showing dogs has only been around for a couple hundred years and there are still a lot of obstacle to overcome. Its just very recently that we have health testing and its going to take sometime to correct the issues we can just now detect. I do agree that the breeds with sever deformities and exaggerated features need to be re-evaluated and the health of the dog should come first.

Like all documentaries they need to be taken with a grain of salt


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## KPoos

Purple Poodle said:


> Just to comment in the link posted about the BBC program. I had heard a lot of talk about it on another forum I visit and I just now watched it myself. I think the anti-show people really made an impact on the non show people with the shock factor. I think its absurd to compare breeding dogs to the Nazi movement.
> 
> Showing dogs has only been around for a couple hundred years and there are still a lot of obstacle to overcome. Its just very recently that we have health testing and its going to take sometime to correct the issues we can just now detect. I do agree that the breeds with sever deformities and exaggerated features need to be re-evaluated and the health of the dog should come first.
> 
> Like all documentaries they need to be taken with a grain of salt


I think it needs to become a requirement from AKC and the rest of the kennel clubs that certain health testing has to be documented on breeding dogs. That is the only way that these breeds will improve. 

I think that anyone can look at a documentary and come away from it in what suits your life. I for one think that culling puppies without a genetic deformity because the breed standard says they have to have a ridge shows a tad bit of that Nazi-like mentality. Why kill the puppies and not place in pet homes?


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## Cdnjennga

Now here's a poodle with a roach back. Yikes!

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dog...ld-toy-poodle-needs-a-home-W0QQAdIdZ159386461


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## Harley_chik

KPoos said:


> I think it needs to become a requirement from AKC and the rest of the kennel clubs that certain health testing has to be documented on breeding dogs. That is the only way that these breeds will improve.
> 
> I think that anyone can look at a documentary and come away from it in what suits your life. I for one think that culling puppies without a genetic deformity because the breed standard says they have to have a ridge shows a tad bit of that Nazi-like mentality. Why kill the puppies and not place in pet homes?


I absolutely agree! I've emailed the AKC about requiring health test before issuing a CH. I got an automated email saying they value all feedback and would resond as quickly as they could. That was like 6 months ago, so there you go.


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## jester's mom

Cdnjennga said:


> Now here's a poodle with a roach back. Yikes!
> 
> http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dog...ld-toy-poodle-needs-a-home-W0QQAdIdZ159386461


That is awful!! I would NEVER pay $400 for that poodle. Wow. He may be a super sweet boy, but that structure is only asking for problems as he gets older. What a shame!!!!


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## Locket

roxy25 said:


> Greyhounds don't


I hope I don't offend anyone but that is the fattest greyhound I've ever seen and has ZERO muscle definition. That, to me, is an EXTREMELY poor example of a greyhound.


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## roxy25

Locket said:


> I hope I don't offend anyone but that is the fattest greyhound I've ever seen and has ZERO muscle definition. That, to me, is an EXTREMELY poor example of a greyhound.


That is how show greyhounds look 

here is a racing greyhound very ripped


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## Poodle Lover

I love greyhounds and only met the racing, rescued ones. I much prefer the racing look to the show look. I guess if I ever get a greyhound, I'll go the rescue route.


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## Locket

roxy25 said:


> That is how show greyhounds look
> 
> here is a racing greyhound very ripped


That is a grey worthy of BIS!



Poodle Lover said:


> I love greyhounds and only met the racing, rescued ones. I much prefer the racing look to the show look. I guess if I ever get a greyhound, I'll go the rescue route.


They are such amazing dogs. My next dog will be a retired racer for sure.


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## spoospirit

_That was truly disturbing! I almost cried. Made me think a lot about what can be done to change things.
_


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## spoospirit

jester's mom said:


> That is awful!! I would NEVER pay $400 for that poodle. Wow. He may be a super sweet boy, but that structure is only asking for problems as he gets older. What a shame!!!!



_Poor baby!! _


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## Bella's Momma

How interesting. Whenever I have seen a dog that was "roach backed" it just always looked to me like it was cowering for some reason. Generally they were (rescue, ex-racing) greyhounds so I just assumed they'd been traumatized and cowered in public. Or small poodles like in the link. 

I've definitely learned something in this thread. And, of course, now I keep staring at Bella's back.LOL. She stands funny sometimes and it makes her back do this, then the next minute she moves forward so it levels out more and I think "phew!"


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## Cdnjennga

Now I can't stop coming across roach backed poodles! And what's even better is this one's up for stud (and already has 7 litters on the ground by the age of 2). Oh the joys of backyard breeding. :wacko:

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-other-Big-toy-small-miniature-poodle-stud-W0QQAdIdZ108832573


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## Fluffyspoos

This made me look up greyhounds.. and I found this picture. I laughed pretty hard.










HAHA PREY DRIVE! What funny dogs!


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## KPoos

Fluffyspoos said:


> This made me look up greyhounds.. and I found this picture. I laughed pretty hard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HAHA PREY DRIVE! What funny dogs!


Is that a muzzle on that dog's face? It almost looks like braces. From my reading greyhounds are one of the most docile dogs around. That picture is scary.


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## taxtell

Greyhounds are pretty docile, yes.
I did have one with dominance issues, actually. Go figure.

She wanted to be alpha female...over me even.

The other grey I had was probably one of the best dogs I've ever owned...she was a doll.

I love the breed, and really truly hate the racing industry. I would have another in a heartbeat, but hubby is not a fan. He does, however LOVE poodles. <3 He and Flip are BFFs.


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## *heather*

> I've definitely learned something in this thread. And, of course, now I keep staring at Bella's back.LOL. She stands funny sometimes and it makes her back do this, then the next minute she moves forward so it levels out more and I think "phew!"


 haha ...I'm doing the exact same thing with Rogan!


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## Spencer

Rather than starting a new thread, I am bumping this one to ask a question about roach backed poos.

Perry is roach backed slightly (I'm pretty sure... and just to agitate me, The Fiance keeps pointing it out), what does this mean in the long run for him? Health wise, I mean. He doesn't look like one of Paris Hilton's crazy chihuahuas, but he has a slight curvature to his spine. (Fitting, I suppose, since my spine is all messed up too!)

AND, I grew up with retired racing greyhounds from the age of 10 up. They are AMAZING dogs. My mother is a "breed snob" and says she will only ever own greyhounds from now until the day she dies. She currently has three, one that is a retired rescue, and two that are show quality puppies. She's going to attempt to show them and course them. (In reality, her girl is show quality, her boy is more built for coursing.) My brother and I call them our replacements. She filled her empty nest with a boy and girl pup. We have been, indeed, replaced! (And The Fiance interjects just now, "We have one, too! Don't forget to mention we have one too!" So here it is, me, mentioning it!  )


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