# Board and Train



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Who is going to the board and train? Why do you think this is going to be an effective strategy?

Personally I would not go this route since I would prefer to be the primary trainer at every step of the way with my dogs.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I was looking to see if poodle owners had this experience. It is for Kit, who has become reactive with other dogs. She isn’t aggressive at all but likes to lunge A LOT! Her exuberance makes it hard to walk her. I do trust this trainer because she is very well regarded and we’ve been working with her for the pass year. She is hard to book with private lessons and I figure a board and train gets a lot of structure. In fact this board and train has a waiting list. If I sign up today, her next available opening is June 29. 


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I get it then. Since you already have a relationship with the trainer I would feel more comfortable. I also understand what the issue is, especially since Kit is so big and you just had your problems with your feet.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> I get it then. Since you already have a relationship with the trainer I would feel more comfortable. I also understand what the issue is, especially since Kit is so big and you just had your problems with your feet.




Is reactivity something you can train out of a dog? What is scary is if you pull, Kit will play tug of war with the leash. She gets Very mouthy and it can be mistaken for aggression if you don’t know her. The trainer said my martingale is too weak for her and we have to move on to a choke collar. She said it worked well when she was a 7 month old puppy. 

The trainer is a lot harsher with the choke collar than us. It makes me wonder if we’ve been using it wrong. We tug and it doesn’t correct much. The trainer jerks and the dog responds immediately and is surprised. I just want to make sure this is the correct use and the trainer isn’t too forceful. 


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Acckkk! I don't like choke collars since most of the time people do end up jerking the dog around on them. If you and Paul aren't going to use the choke collar the way the trainer does then the usefulness of it is really limited since Kit will know you aren't going to follow through with corrections the same way. I actually don't let people use choke collars in my obedience classes, but I do encourage proper use of pinch collars for people who i trust won't be yanking on the leash with it. Have you thought about a pinch collar? No leash jerking on a pinch collar. The dog decides for themselves when they don't want to feel the pressure anymore. Another thing I would seriously invest time in for reactivity on leash is Look At That (LAT) training. You start with low level under threshold distractions and gradually add distractions as the dog learns to look at the distraction and acknowledge it but then look right back to you to connect and let go of their concern over the "scary/bothersome/distracting" thing. Click-N-Treat put a link to an excellent video on LAT training in this thread. http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/262537-looking-advice-ideas-etc.html


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Thank you very much for the feedback. I love Click’s Donna Hill link. I have seen that video and am a subscriber to her YouTube channel. I love her videos. I wish my dog learns as fast as hers. 

I recommended the prong collar. However, Paul doesn’t want people to get the wrong idea given her reactivity. He has been the one walking her nowadays. I would have her wear it indoors but she behaves well in the yard and indoors. She only needs it during walks, which usually means in public. *sigh*


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You could think about a plastic link pinch collar or a cover over it, but also since she has a lot of coat I doubt it would really be that noticeable. Personally I wouldn't be taking her out walking and letting her rehearse the behavior you don't want. The more times she does it the harder it will become for you to undo it. I would do the LAT in the house to teach her the game, then your back yard and then out in front of your house while things that she is currently react to are likely to pass by. Keeping her close to the house will help keep her under threshold and also give you a quick escape into the house to regroup.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> You could think about a plastic link pinch collar or a cover over it, but also since she has a lot of coat I doubt it would really be that noticeable. Personally I wouldn't be taking her out walking and letting her rehearse the behavior you don't want. The more times she does it the harder it will become for you to undo it. I would do the LAT in the house to teach her the game, then your back yard and then out in front of your house while things that she is currently react to are likely to pass by. Keeping her close to the house will help keep her under threshold and also give you a quick escape into the house to regroup.


Edit: 

Ok I reread what you said and saw the front yard idea. That seems like a good place to start.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

But you can still teach her LAT at and near home and then take little baby walks that let you put it to the test close to home. It does sound like leash reactivity but I don't think that calling the behavior something specific changes how you deal with it.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

snow0160 said:


> I was looking to see if poodle owners had this experience. It is for Kit, who has become reactive with other dogs. She isn’t aggressive at all but likes to lunge A LOT! Her exuberance makes it hard to walk her. I do trust this trainer because she is very well regarded and we’ve been working with her for the pass year. She is hard to book with private lessons and I figure a board and train gets a lot of structure. In fact this board and train has a waiting list. If I sign up today, her next available opening is June 29.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


This is intended with kindness and respect. One needs to consider the breed, and anticipate and acknowledge a guardian breed such as a Maremma that is not in a working home, but kept as a house pet is still likely to mature into the breed it is, with all the working/guardian characteristics.

Not saying one can't manage such a dog, just that a well-bred representative of a breed is likely to be true to its heritage.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

This is also not a breed I'd want to subject to such an unwise and unfair 'trainer' such as yours. This FAQ on the breed makes it clear to me forcing a board and train on a Maremma is likely to exacerbate and hasten its caution about other humans. One could potentially end up with a dog unsafe with humans.

Maremma FAQ - Maremma Sheepdog Club of America

Perhaps consider instead working with a breed club to give your dog a job that's suitable to her breed .


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I don’t take any offense to your advice as it is sensible one to give. I appreciate you looking up about the breed. Kit is from an Italian showline rather than working lines, which are the only ones available in America. I have done my research with maremma and I had owned one before. I’ve had a long discussion with Kit’s breeder and MSCA president regarding keeping a maremma as a companion. Both individuals agree that certain Maremmas can be kept as pets. 

For this thread, I had wanted to get people’s experiences with board and train. I will take caution in finding the best trainer for her breed.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I have no experience with board and train because I've never had a need or desire for it for my dogs, but I do get where you're coming from. I just have a problem with the trainer "yanking" on a choke collar. That sounds cruel to me. I don't care how popular she is. We have a local trainer who is VERY popular who I would never use for my dogs. Now a prong collar, used correctly, that seems like a better tool for such a strong dog, IMHO. But I hate choke chains. As a show collar, fine. But for giving corrections, uh uh.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

zooeysmom said:


> I have no experience with board and train because I've never had a need or desire for it for my dogs, but I do get where you're coming from. I just have a problem with the trainer "yanking" on a choke collar. That sounds cruel to me. I don't care how popular she is. We have a local trainer who is VERY popular who I would never use for my dogs. Now a prong collar, used correctly, that seems like a better tool for such a strong dog, IMHO. But I hate choke chains. As a show collar, fine. But for giving corrections, uh uh.




That was exactly the problem I had with this trainer. That was why I’m reluctant in leaving her with this trainer although she has given us invaluable advice over the last year. Maybe I should take Kit to Lucky’s service dog program. They are super nice and gentle. 



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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

snow0160 said:


> That was exactly the problem I had with this trainer. That was why I’m reluctant in leaving her with this trainer although she has given us invaluable advice over the last year. Maybe I should take Kit to Lucky’s service dog program. They are super nice and gentle.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


If it's possible, I would try them first. They may be able to correct her behavior using more gentle techniques.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

snow0160 said:


> That was exactly the problem I had with this trainer. That was why I’m reluctant in leaving her with this trainer although she has given us invaluable advice over the last year. Maybe I should take Kit to Lucky’s service dog program. They are super nice and gentle.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


That sounds like a better idea if possible. I'm with zooeysmom on not being too keen on leaving one of my dogs with a trainer who I had seen do rough handling while I was there.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

From back in the day on CL, I've read a few nightmare experiences with board and train, so I think you're wise to think it through.

I do know you did your research and recall you had another Maremma! I'm sure they can be lovely house pets, just possibly do very well with a job. Absolutely love your inspired idea to take Kit to service dog training!!!!!!!


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

snow0160 said:


> That was exactly the problem I had with this trainer. That was why I’m reluctant in leaving her with this trainer although she has given us invaluable advice over the last year. Maybe I should take Kit to Lucky’s service dog program. They are super nice and gentle.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I think going to Lucky's trainer is a wise idea for Kit. I would hate to have her ruined by a trainer who is jerking on her neck with a choke collar. If they can't work with her because she's not a service dog, they should be able to recommend someone who has an effective gentle training method.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Buck had an excellent trainer for his first year who was affiliated with a state of the art boarding, grooming, daycare facility. I would have had no hesitation leaving him with her supplying the training. She adored Buck and it was reciprocated. I kinda wish that I had sent him for a weekend with her at the facility, meeting and greeting in their lobby to extinguish jumping. The trainers who followed were disasters and I wouldn’t leave Buck with them for a minute out of my view.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I think that trusting your instincts on this decision is very wise. Sounds like Lucky's trainer is a much better option.

Please let us know how this works out.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

If a trainer will handle your dog roughly with you standing there, what will happen when no one is looking? Choke chain? Shock collar? A shock collar on top of a wet towel to enhance the effect? You do not know. 

Talk to Lucky's trainer. I hope you get the answers you need to help Kit.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I've definitely decided against the board and train. I've let my trainer know yesterday. I've talked to a few Maremma owners since I created the post and many of them recommend the gentle leader to get through the teenage years (before 3yrs).

I've taken her out a few walks using the GL and all inappropriate behaviors stopped. No more jumping, barking, lunging or pulling. It does take some getting used to. She keeps attempting to rub it off on me. I keep giving her lots of treats and praises during the walk and it has worked like a charm because Kit tolerates the GL. I think the GL doesn't work for some dogs. Lucky, for example, goes crazy when I put it on and can easily hurt himself. 

The objection against the GL is that it doesn't teach your dog to not pull. It only teaches them to not pull with the GL on. I've tried to teach Kit to focus or look at that method before but this got a lot harder once her teenage hormones kicked in. Most of our training sessions end in frustration. I'm going to continue to work on this method with the gentle leader on. I like having two reinforcement methods. This way, she never gets the opportunity to misbehave. Once her teenage years are over, I hope she will behave with a regular collar. I am very thankful that she does not jump on people off leash.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

So glad you didn't take her to that idiotic, abusive lady!  There's no shame in using a head collar, temporarily or permanently. I use Easy Walks on the poodles when I walk them together because I only care about keeping them comfortable and having control over them.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

zooeysmom said:


> So glad you didn't take her to that idiotic, abusive lady!  There's no shame in using a head collar, temporarily or permanently. I use Easy Walks on the poodles when I walk them together because I only care about keeping them comfortable and having control over them.


Thank you ZM!! Control is good! We found out Kit ate her pink Easy Walk harness yesterday. The buckle is chewed in half :afraid: I think she ate it on the car ride to her evaluation. When I got mad, she rolled over for a tummy rub. LOL


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

snow0160 said:


> Thank you ZM!! Control is good! We found out Kit ate her pink Easy Walk harness yesterday. The buckle is chewed in half :afraid: I think she ate it on the car ride to her evaluation. When I got mad, she rolled over for a tummy rub. LOL


Oh, Kit :lol:


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I've done to a pinch collar on Renn as he will lunge, jump and almost make me fall just pulling to get whatever it is he wants. I was using a rubber one but really it lost its effect. So now we have had a few really nice peaceful walks. He has some of it focused and some sniffing. So far so good. We had one incident where he yanked me and squealed because he pulled and it pinched him, he came immediately to me I pretty much ignored the squeak and kept on going. He was very good afterwards. My daughter bought I think a gl it goes around his nose he hates it and takes his paws to pull it off before we get anywhere. I like the pinch collar. I will have to buy a herm sprayer though as this one seems to discolor his fur, so it must not be stainless steel.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Glad to hear you found a tool that helps. Teenage dogs are difficult, so whatever helps is a gift.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

snow I will add my voice to those who are relieved you are not going to use that board and train. Rough handling in front of you wasn't a good sign. It makes me wonder why this trainer gets so many bookings.

mufar42 get an HS pinch with an easy release. This way you don't have to worry if you put the links back together correctly. I'm betting Renn will learn quickly to avoid correcting himself.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

lilly cd re 
get an HS pinch with an easy release. This way you don't have to worry if you put the links back together correctly. I'm betting Renn will learn quickly to avoid correcting himself.
I initially went for it when in pet store the guy wanted $50. I knew i could get on amazon cheaper so I went with the cheaper one he suggested. Should have followed my instinct, lol Will order today . Yes and he is very very good on the pinch.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Cheap tools aren't always a bargain are they? This is the one I was referring to. https://www.amazon.com/Imports-Herm...56&sr=8-4&keywords=herm+sprenger+prong+collar


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

The reason we never take Lucky (who is very sensitive and calm) to train with her was because she is a bit on the militant side. Her reputation comes from the fact she trains with several local groups: police dogs, attack dogs, ptsd service dogs for the VA. Her training advice has been very creative and adaptive, which is something I have not seen with any other trainers. You only give these advice from having worked with dogs from a wide range of situations. The harsh correction made me hesitant but she delivers results with a huge fan following. 

I have zero experience with the slip/ choke collar. I don’t want to malign her reputation if it isn’t deserved. I just want to make sure her choke collar correction is indeed incorrect. Here is her method: 
She would let the dog run to the end of the leash and yank. This of course sends a pretty heavy impact and jolt the dog’s whole body. She said this was a correction the dog would remember whereas my slight pull is more of a way to communicate with the dog. Her point was that you only have to correct once and the dog will remember not to pull. I did not adopt this method because it looked wrong. 

Kit pretty much still ignores my corrections using the martingale and I’ve never used a slip collar bc she has long hair. I’m just glad the GL works so I don’t have to think about this. 

I remember seeing a police dog training video many years ago when I first got Sahara. It was a bunch of German Shepherds. The correction was exactly like the method above. It was closer to a choke. Is this wrong? 




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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

:angry: <----you already know that is how I feel about this idiot and her yanking choke method. Teaches the dog NOTHING except that you are an abusive a**hole who will hurt them to get what you want. 

I do positive reinforcement training with my dogs, so when we're teaching focused attention on the leash, we let them go to the end of the leash and we hold tight (be a tree, don't move) and we wait for the dog to give to the pressure and make eye contact. Then immediately click, say "yes!" and treat. You have to have their attention. Just yanking when they're paying no attention serves no purpose. 

"Power" trainers use abusive methods because they usually get results! And people want a well behaved dog. They don't realize that their dog has been shut down into submission, a la Cesar Milan style. I want a dog who trusts me and respects me. It is all about the relationship. Yes, you need to be the dog's leader, but be a gentle one, not a dictator.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

snow0160 said:


> Here is her method:
> She would let the dog run to the end of the leash and yank. This of course sends a pretty heavy impact and jolt the dog’s whole body.



This method will almost certainly damage the dog's trachea, quite possibly severely. I shudder when I think of using a choke collar on any dog that lunges. I have used a prong collar, would use it again because it works and because if used properly it does not harm the dog. The dog decides how much he wants to pull on it. Head collars work also, but dogs hate them and they do not teach the dog anything. They are management devices. I would always choose a prong collar over a GL or other head collar.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I vote with reraven on this. At the Brenda Aloff workshop I attended last month there was a very ill mannered giant schnauzer who just would not settle enough for her to work with him on a flat collar so she put a head collar on him and he was horrified and fought it for quite a long time even without her trying to get him to do anything. I bet he would have settled a lot quicker on a pinch collar. I think she prefers not to use pinch collars, but plenty of us had pinch collars on our dogs and they were all used correctly and nobody got out of hand.

To give a couple of outrageous analogies, a pinch collar is a modified martingale collar and an unlimited slip chain is like a hanging noose.


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## JMC3 (Mar 27, 2016)

Cooper was leash resistant. He was so easy to train on everything else, but he freaked on a leash. We tried going to classes etc...and finally did the board and train. Our trainers were excellent. They took us step by step through their process and then we visited every week after the first two and worked w/ the trainer and Cooper. They use the first couple weeks to gain the dogs trust and do basic clicker work etc...then moved on to the leash work. 
They taught us what to do to keep his training up etc...and we have not had any problems since. I think if you trust your trainer and the facility is nice etc...then go for it. We have had no regrets. It was very hard to leave him there, but we knew it was the best thing to do for him and us.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I have tried a metal prong collar on Kit before. It does not stop her from pulling. Her coat is long and dense. It probably works much better for short haired dogs. I might check out the Halti. 

I found an article from Patricia McConnell's website talking about various collars: GL, Prong, Choke, Halti etc. She seems to be in favor of front clip harnesses. Those don't work so well for strong-willed teenagers. She dislikes the prong collar because many dogs can badly injure themselves. Here is the link:

Collars I have Known and Loved. Or Not.


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## JMC3 (Mar 27, 2016)

A prong collar, or pinch collar used properly is one of the safest choices you can use on your dog. It just needs to be used properly. If someone is not sure how to use it correctly then I would suggest not using until a trainer can show you how.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Not all tools or techniques are right for all dogs. Train the dog you have not the one you wished for and use your tools well and wisely.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

snow0160 said:


> She seems to be in favor of front clip harnesses. Those don't work so well for strong-willed teenagers. [/url]


These can work very well, but again they are management devices and do not teach the dog anything. That may be all you want or need. You say they don't work so well for some dogs, I think that is probably because they don't fit right or aren't designed properly. I tried several on my very strong willed Giant Schnauzer teenager and found that the "front clip" always pulled around to the side and was ineffective. There are harnesses that are well designed so that doesn't happen. I saw an article somewhere about the best front clip harnesses, the top three were:

Blue-9 Balance Harness 
https://www.blue-9.com/products/100000000000063-balance-harness-buckle-neck

Ruffwear Front Range Harness
https://ruffwear.com/products/front-range-harness

Clean Run Perfect Fit Modular Fleece Harness
https://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=3934

I did get one of the Ruffwear harnesses for Zephyr, but he isn't really a puller and doesn't lunge, so isn't much of a test for it. It is designed so that the front clip stays where it is supposed to be.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Front clip harnesses are good for dogs who aren't too strong - it worked great for Archie because he would hit the end of it and it'd instantly turn him around, so I could more easily redirect his attention. It also stops him from jumping. But he's only 15 pounds, so it's really just a convenience device for me.

If you have a very strong dog, though, I don't know how much it would help. You'd still get that strong impact from the dog lunging against the harness; it just can't continue to drag you after that. They're also a little easier to wriggle out of than regular harnesses -- when we used them on shelter dogs, we had to clip the harness to their collar with a carabiner because you never knew if they'd slip out of it.

I've never used a prong, but I think the danger comes into play if people try to "pop" or yank them like trainers do with choke chains. I've also heard that people have a harder time with them on dogs with long, thick hair.

Anyway, I'm glad Kit accepts the Gentle Leader! Personally I think there's no shame in using it indefinitely if you have to, though I'm sure a good trainer can show you how to transition to a flat collar once Kit's calmed down a little.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I might try the prong collar for Lucky. He pulls whereas Kit does not pull and just like to jump. I might check out the plastic prong one with Lucky’s short coat. 


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## robby69 (Apr 29, 2012)

We trained all of our spoos them with a prong collar, and when its time for a walk it was like they turned into cadets and I was a leader. I rarely had to correct any of them on walks. Of course once they got back home and the prong collar comes off, that's another story.

Its not barbaric, and its much better than a choke collar, which puts a lot of pressure on their trachea. 

One of my spoos slipped off our boat dock once when I was bringing her back to the house from the boat. She was dangling off the dock by her prong collar which seemed like forever, really only for a few seconds until I could get to her. No worse for the wear, thank goodness.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

25 yrs ago I was taught by a very good trainer how to use a prong collar properly. My GSD/Spoo mix Rosie was 70 lbs and had already torn my rotator cuff so I really needed this tool to work....and it did. Rosie never pulled, trotted happily by my side and came running to me when I jingled the collar. That jingle meant we were going somewhere fun. We used it for about a year then never had to use it again.

10 yrs later when I got Iris I used the gentle leader, which was new at the time. The jingling noise of the prong collar made Iris shut down. We used the gentle leader for about a year and never used it again.

Fast forward 14 yrs and along comes Poppy. The gentle leader works pretty well. She is very strong and very determined. The easy walk harness was not good as she is waaaaay too strong and could just muscle her way through that device. I just may have to use the gentle leader FOREVER with Poppy as anytime I try without it she pulls like a draft horse pulling a plow! Maybe I should pull out the old Herm Sprenger prong collar and try it? And horrify all the neighbors? I have a strong feeling that Poppy would be undaunted by the prong collar. Funny, bright, determined girl.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Easy Walk Harness reduces pulling but does not stop it. The GL seems to work great so far but I really want a training tool. A lot of working LGD owners use prong collars. It seems like there is a large number of people who swear by the prong collar. I'm gonna have to revisit this. I want to thank everyone who had shared their experience, particularly for recommending the plastic one. I had not even known they made plastic prong collars until that post. 

I just ordered the StarMark Prong collar on Amazon. It is the plastic prong collar with over 900 reviews. It's four-star rating makes me believe this tool is solid. It is currently on some sort of super sale for $5.16 for the Large, which is usually over $12. 

I read over a bunch of reviews and here is what I like about it:

1. Your neighbor won't think you are abusing your dog This looks a lot less medieval and less people are going to think your dog has aggression. I saw one reviewer using it for their pit bull. He was super worried that people would think his dog had aggression but instead just jumps. 
2. This does not irritate the skin like a metal prong. It also doesn't tangle hair like the metal one. The only con I saw was it is harder to get on and off. 
3. Most importantly, it is just as effective as the metal prong collar. 

I'll write an update later once I test it out on both Lucky and Kit.


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## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

We adopted a st. Poodle from another family. They put her as a puppy through board and train. Neither the previous owners learned how to control the dog, nor we. We ended up to retraining her, alas, not very successfully. The owner, absolutely must be with the dog during the training.
No matter how good is the trainer, if the owner isn’t there, the dog learns commands from a different person and then the owner isn’t associated with the commands. 
Board and train isn’t taking into account dog’s psychology and associations.
Train your dog with the private trainer, but be there and never leave him/her alone with the trainer.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I have a similar one, its hard rubber. It is effective on a young dog but no longer effective on Renn who is almost 6 months now. I got him a metal prong collar. It fits high on his neck, right behind his ears and I can fit three fingers under it. He does not pull or lunge when I use it. I don't give a flip what my neighbors may think, lol and with his fur no one really sees it anyway. I bought an inexpensive one but he is white and it discolors his fur. I am waiting for his "herm Spranger" prong to arrive, she be here today.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

lisasgirl I understand your perspective about pinch collars. Whenever I recommend them to people I do a lot of explanation/demonstration of how to fit them and how to use them (never pop the leash). I also have a protocol (given to me by Ian Dunbar) for introducing the pinch collar in a way that the dog doesn't actually think the pinch collar is giving the correction. I've explained it other places here, but will do so again since pinch collars are the direction this discussion has gone towards. Put the pinch collar on the dog (properly fitted as described by Mufar) and give a treat. Take the collar off. Repeat this several times a day until the dog is at ease with having the collar on. Take the dog for a walk or to class but don't hook the leash to the pinch collar. Do that for two weeks. While the dog is getting the idea that the pinch collar doesn't do bad things you will have a cheap nylon flat collar in a zip loc bag soaking with mink oil, cod liver oil or fish oil to stink it up. At the end of the two weeks put both collars (pinch and stinky) on the dog and hook the leash to both collars. Allow the dog to correct itself. The dog's association is that the stinky collar does weird things. Keep using both collars, but don't re-soak the stinky collar. As the nylon collar loses its smell the dog will be improving their pinch collar behavior and then when you are ready if you want you will be able to fade the use of the pinch collar since the dog never thought it did anything to them anyway.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Thank you very much Catherine for taking the time to share the method. Ian Dunbar is truly an experienced and creative trainer. This technique isn’t something most trainer would offer. This is the kind of creative training technique that makes Kit’s trainer valuable. She has ideas I would never think of. I stuck with her because of that despite the militant corrections. I just don’t trust doing the board and train. 

I remember you’ve mentioned this method before and I told DH about it but he was reluctant about the smell. This time I’m just gonna do it and enforce it myself. My foot has improved a lot with supplements and I can resume training.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am a pay it forward kind of a person. I think Ian Dunbar is too. While he generally favors +R over the other quadrants he recognizes that if an aversive will save a dog's life then it should be used, but correctly. His method does give the ability to relatively easily fade the pinch collar if desired.

If DH is worried about the dogs smelling like mink oil then use fish oil. It doesn't have to stink to us. Remember their noses are way way way better than ours.

I am glad your foot is doing so much better.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

*Update Post:*
The StarMark Prong collar arrived thanks to amazon's two day prime shipping. I was so excited to use this. We watched the video on their website on how to properly fit and use their prong collar. 
On Kit: 
Unfortunately, it does not work AT ALL on Kit. She jumps and pulls like the martingale. She got frustrated and threw a temper tantrum about the pinching: She pulled even harder and tried to eat the leash. She completely ignores any corrections and forges ahead. We went to Petsmart and tried on a metal prong collar. The metal one doesn't do much either. 

On Lucky: 
It works perfectly. We corrected him a few times and he immediately responded. He was a lot more cautious about heeling right next to me. When he started pulling, he actually corrected himself by the end of the walk. Kit doesn't do this and pulls even harder. He is a much meeker dog and a lot less stubborn. Since it was so cheap, I ordered two. I am planning to keep one for Lucky. 

Kit is way stronger and more resistant. I am going to have to stick to the Gentle Leader. It is too easy to lose control with a prong collar. However, I can see how a super exuberant and stubborn teenage spoo/ retriever can have the same problem as Kit.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You should have given her time to get used to just having it on before using it with the leash! I actually give dogs a couple of weeks tog et used to just wearing a pinch collar before having it go live. Put it away for a while and try again according to the plan outlined above.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Took Lucky out for a walk and we saw a bunny. They are everywhere in my neighborhood and I typically tell Lucky to "leave it" from a long distance and he will ignore them if I am successful at refocusing his attention. Usually, the closer we get to the bunny, the more he is like deer in headlights. This time, we were 10 feet from it and I didn't give him any commands because I wanted to see how the prong collar would correct him or perhaps he would correct himself.

Unfortunately, he bolted with the prong collar and dragged me along with him. I could not get a control of him at all even with corrections. He chased the bunny as if his life depended on it and took me along for the ride. I saw that the prongs dug in his super short fur and made his skin pink. 
The prong collar works fine in regular walking sessions but it doesn't do much for a very determined dog. Am I using this incorrectly? I know it is supposed to sit very high up on the neck and I watched many youtube videos.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well I would condition Lucky to understand the collar before testing it so hard. Yes it should fit high on the neck and not easily slide down. All fo my dogs understand and respect that the pinch collar means no pulling even if there is a bunny, squirrel, cat, kid on a bike or a chicken in the street (and yes we have all of those in our neighborhood).


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

You're not using the prong incorrectly, you just forgot it's not a magic wand. Whoops! You still need to use your leave it and look at that game with distractions at a distance. A prong just gives a correction an extra level of, oomph, shall we say. Also, a standard poodle that is in hunt/chase mode is acting on instincts on the breed level. Once those instincts get triggered, getting the dog to stop is extremely difficult. 

Breed level instincts like herding, pulling a sled, chasing game, guarding, these instincts are why humans created all these breeds in the first place. When a poodle is chasing something, that DNA level raison d'être kicks in. We had an English bulldog. Calm, placid, dumb as a bag of hammers. One time she saw a bull in a field and a switch in her head flipped. It was remarkable. She wanted to grab that bull by the snout and hang on like her ancestors did. Those breed level instincts are so powerful. Our eight-week-old weimaraner pointed birds. No training, no encouragement, she saw a bird and froze in point. 

In gun dogs like standard poodles, hunting is DNA deep. We always forget that poodles are hunters with hundreds of years of breeding behind that desire. Once a poodle's hunting instincts are triggered, you're fighting against their ancestry. Your job is to prevent your dog from getting triggered on that level. Today, you found out why! Whoops!
Dogs can learn to override their natural instincts, but you need to help them. The closer you get to DNA level desires, the harder you have to work on override. That's why it's really hard to train a sled dog to come when called, for example. Their instincts tell them to run 10 miles away from you as fast as possible. Lucky is a hunter with strong chase desires. Getting him to override those desires is going to take lots of practice.

Go bunny hunting. Find out how close you can get to a bunny before Lucky's instincts get triggered. Then back up a few paces and work on the look at that game. Looking too intensely and spitting out treats? Back up more. Is Lucky able to watch the bunny, and look at you for a treat, and watch the bunny? You're at the right place. Look at that! Lucky needs to learn to see a bunny and be calm at the same time. That can only happen through lots of repetition of leave it, look at that, watch me. And by being patient with Lucky because he's a hunting dog under all that hair.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well said Click. For some dogs the pinch collar is a "flip switcher," but not fall all dogs and as I have described there is a way to introduce it and train for its use to make it an effective tool. Think about even things like putting collars and leashes on young puppies. We don't expect them to understand or accept what they do on the first try. All tools need to be introduced and trained with properly to accomplish our goals.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Lily is right, well said. it's a tool. And it's the right tool for some dogs. Noelle shut down the only time I tried a prong collar. She just froze in fear and confusion. It felt awful, off it came. It's the wrong tool for Noelle. My sled dog Honey would drag me face first through a box hedge without a prong collar. Want to know what being dragged face first through a box hedge feels like? Think of your cheese grater. Now imagine you're the cheese.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Click-N-Treat said:


> Now imagine you're the cheese.



Lol. Was Honey a spoo? That is a lot of strength for a toy or mini. Poodles are deceptively strong. Lucky has hulk strength and imo stronger than Kit when he really wants to pull.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

No, Honey was a lab husky mix. She was a sled dog. Honey's instincts told her to run as fast while as possible dragging a heavy thing behind her. Honey just didn't realize that heavy thing was, um, me. By the way, being dragged face first through a box hedge isn't quite as bad as being dragged face first through a raspberry patch. How would I know this? Trust me. Just trust me.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I've heard that the pinch from a prong can actually _build_ drive in some dogs -- they get triggered by something, they go into high-alert high-arousal mode, and then the pinch just gets processed as more stimulation in their brain. They stop categorizing it as pain and just add it to the general noise of arousal and frenzy. I've heard of this especially with protection/police dogs, who are bred to want to fight harder when they face opposition, but I could see it happening to a dog with lots of prey-drive too.

All this to say, you definitely want it reinforcing your work at low threshold, because at high threshold it can not only become ineffective but actually backfire in some dogs.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

lisasgirl, good point about thresholds. Introducing new concepts should always be done with a very relaxed unaroused dog. Then you work up towards thresholds that excite while still keeping the dog in control and in its thinking brain. Once any animal is operating in its hindbrain (limbic fight or flight) nothing good is going to happen. Even an aroused working police dog is still in front brain since they can listen to their handlers and stop when told.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I guess at this point, this ought to be a separate thread on training collars. But good news! After several days of practice wearing the prong indoors, Lucky does really well on it. 

I tried to see how he’d react with the gentle leader and he went insane. This is when I tried to put it on indoors before attaching it to a leash. Poor Lucky hurt his mouth by pawing it constantly. His gums bled a little and I don’t think this works on him at all. 

Kits reaction to the gentle leader is completely different from Lucky. It calms her down whereas it sends Lucky into panic. I am glad the prong is working with Lucky.

Edit: still working with Kit on the pinch collar. We put it on and treat and take it off. Tried this several times and still a working progress. Need to do the fish oil thing.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

snow0160 said:


> I tried to see how he’d react with the gentle leader and he went insane. This is when I tried to put it on indoors before attaching it to a leash. Poor Lucky hurt his mouth by pawing it constantly. His gums bled a little and I don’t think this works on him at all.
> 
> Kits reaction to the gentle leader is completely different from Lucky. It calms her down whereas it sends Lucky into panic. I am glad the prong is working with Lucky.


I have never used a gentle leader or anything like them on one of my dogs but most dogs need to be introduced to them like you would train to a muzzle. Most dogs don't do best with it just slapped on them unlike a collar or even a harness.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Do you know anyone one with rabbits? When Sailor had to be broken of his "killer rabbit" routine, we put a dog savvy bunny in an exercise pen. This made it much easier to work with desensitizing without having to wait for a rabbit to pop up. When Sailor got to the point where he would sit and lick his lips or yawn, instead of lunging at the bunny, then we would move on to letting the rabbit have more space to hop around. Hopping bunnies are much more enticing than stationary bunnies!


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Lucky does same thing to cats as he does to bunnies, squirrels, or balls. I have not been able to fix his obsession. He will follow our cat around and play chase. He will only chase if the are moving. It is the motion that gets him hyped up. He won’t hurt them but he will only stop chasing when I get mad. It is hard to break the prey drive instinct like what click said. 

P.S. I am introducing the GL slower. I am doing positive reinforcements and not even putting it on. If he shows interest, I’ll give him a treat. Next, if he will touch it then treat and so forth.


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