# Advanced Question on Genetics of Color



## peppersb

I do not think that the d allele is what causes fading or clearing in poodles.

My understanding is that the clearing allele in poodles has not been located and there is therefore no DNA test for it. However, the theory is that a v or V is responsible for clearing in black or brown poodles. Unlike the b/B or the e/E, the v/V is partially dominant. This means that for poodles that are born black or brown:
vv = black or brown
vV = blue or cafe au lait
VV = silver or silver beige

This is all described very nicely with illustrations in an article by Dr. MJ Rawlings that was published in the Poodle Club of Canada's newsletter. The article begins on page 14 here:
http://www.poodleclubcanada.club/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2015-PCC-News-2-Spring.pdf

And yes, red poodles are always ee.


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## Vita

peppersb said:


> I do not think that the d allele is what causes fading or clearing in poodles... My understanding is that the clearing allele in poodles has not been located and there is therefore no DNA test for it.


First, thank you for taking the time to respond to this.

Two DNA services that do full color panel testing are VetGen and DDC.

Under the D Locus section (for dilute genes), VetGen says, "The D locus is the primary locus associated with diluted pigment, which results in coats that would otherwise be black or brown instead showing up as gray, or blue in the case of black, and pale brown or Isabella in the case of brown. The melanophilin gene has recently been shown to be responsible, _but not all of the dilute causing mutations have been identified yet."_ 

And DDC says, "D locus (dilution-grey, blue, silver, lilac). Associated with the dilution or lightening effect of solid colors, with D being the dominant allele, the dd genotype results in the diluted effect (like grey, blue, silver, lilac, champagne)."



peppersb said:


> However, the theory is that a v or V is responsible for clearing in black or brown poodles...


*Neither VetGen or DDC mention a VV, Vv, or vv locus/ gene. So I researched for where the theory of this originated.* 

Your linked article on page 14-15 was written by "Dr MJ Rawlings" in Spring 2015 issue by Poodle Club of Canada. I wondered why I couldn't find anything else he had written, but his name is abbreviated. 

I did find this article, "Color Genes in the Poodle" by John Armstrong, Department of Biology, University of Ottawa, Ottawa, ON, last updated in 1999. 

Here's an important excerpt under the section of it, subtitled, "Dilute (D), gray (G) and silver (V)", where he says:

"The dilute (D) gene is supposed to affect the apparent intensity of the pigmentation, but not through an actual reduction in the amount of melanin present. There are two alleles described in the literature, D, which is dominant and gives full color, and d, which leads to a clumping of the pigment granules in a homozygous (dd) animal. This leads to reduced light absorption.

"In an otherwise black animal, the d allele is supposed to produce a "Maltese" blue (slate gray) animal, and possibly cafe-au-lait when acting on a brown. Confusion between the effects of this gene and that of the graying and silvering genes (see below) is common. The Maltese blues are said to be born blue. However, these seem to be much less common than the silver-blues, at least among the Standard poodles. 

"Most authorities describe a dominant allele (G) for graying; non-gray would be gg. Some also consider it to be the gene for silver, in which case it would have to be a partial dominant. Willis (1989), however, says that silvers are dilute grays (ddG_; he does not indicate whether ddGG and ddGg would be the same). Searle (1968) says simply that "this dominant gene apparently leads to a progressive graying in coat-color throughout life and seems to be present in poodles.

*He goes on to say:*

*"My own study of standard poodle pedigrees is consistent with the interpretation that gray and silver are separate genes. To avoid confusion, let's call the silver gene V. *This gene shows incomplete dominance. In other words, if a poodle that is VV would be black, Vv would be a dark blue-gray and vv would be silver. Both blues and silvers are born black. Silvers "clear" during the first year. This involves the gradual loss of pigmentation from about 90% of the inner coat (hairs become transparent or white, depending on thickness), but a substantial percentage of the outer, guard hairs retain some color."

*Now John Armstrong wrote his article with his theories in 1997 and updated it 1999.* Under his selected references, he cited only four, written in 1968, 1989, 1997, and 1998. And as he said, he studied pedigrees, not actual DNA. 

I want to point out that from my perspective, research based on studying pedigrees is a slippery slope (unless they're your own dogs), because many poodles are registered as black as puppies, but later change to silver, blue, or bad (charcoal?) black. This isn't typically updated as the pup ages.

*To compound the problem*, "Dr MJ Rawlings" in 2015 did a rehash of this very old information dating back from 1968 to 1999 for the Poodle Club of Canada. Considering the leaps in science since then, research _should_ have newer findings to prove or disprove the theory, so I can't help but wonder if this is why MJ Rawlings did not use his/her full name and credentials after it. 

Given the quotes from VetGen and DDC, I don't buy into the V-locus theory; it sounded feasible for it's time, but since it hasn't been proven and give that vet labs like VetGen and DDC both attribute the dilute genes, I see no reason why PF members should buy into it. It's basically an idea that one guy had long ago based on pedigree research, and has been snowballing ever since. 



peppersb said:


> And yes, red poodles are always ee.


Yes, that's what I thought too. *The real question for me is red a product of dilute genes, and if so, how many?* None? One? Or two? Or it depends on the dog?

I'm curious b/c if you have a red poodle, with say eeBB DD genes, this means there is no dilute genes present. So if it is mated with a faded black poodle that is EeBB dd, the half of the pups would be black or red, and they'd be carriers of the dilute gene and would not fade. 

But if all red poodles are actually dilutes (with two dd genes), then to breed to a faded black, the color of the black puppies will fade, or change to blue or silver.

So are there some other studies and links we've missed? And what do longtime breeders here say their experience is since they are more likely to be able to see the many puppies they breed as they get older?


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## peppersb

Hi Vita -- Great to see that you are looking into this so carefully. I'm not an expert on genetics, but I will try to respond to some of the issues you raise.

Dr MJ Rawlings is a woman. Her first name is Manda. She is a poodle breeder in the UK and has a special interest in genetics and specifically in breeding to preserve genetic diversity in standard poodles. It is not unusual in the UK and Europe to identify authors by their first initials. I agree that it would have been nice if the newsletter had included more info about who she is. But I do not think that it is fair to assume that she is merely rehashing decades old research by John Armstrong.

With regard to the D locus, the Rawlings article does address this as follows: 
"Dilute (d) is a recessive gene that can sometimes occur in poodles. It causes otherwise black or brown dogs *to be born a diluted colour* such as in a weimaraner, with light eyes and pale pigment, and is associated with a skin disease called colour dilution alopecia. There is a test available. This should not be confused with the much more usual clearing blue and silver, which are not known to be linked to any health conditions." (my emphasis)

There is a test for the D locus. But this is not what generally causes fading in brown or black poodles. The genes responsible for the black poodles clearing to blue or silver have not yet been identified, so the V locus remains entirely theoretical. It makes sense that the companies that provide genetic testing would not mention it.

Note that a dd dog that would otherwise be black or brown will be born a lighter color, like a weimaraner. This is not what we normally see in poodles. Every blue or silver poodle that I have ever known was born black. My conclusion is that dd is extremely rare in poodles. It is my impression -- correct me if I am wrong -- that most poodle breeders don't even bother to test for it. They just test for B and E. I have seen studs listed on breeder web sites with color testing mentioning something like BBEe, but I have never seen the D locus listed. So when you speak about "a faded black poodle that is EeBB dd," I do not think that such a poodle exists. Or if it does, it is a poodle that was born gray and it is extremely rare.

Basically the D locus does not explain the clearing (born dark, clearing to a lighter color) that we observe in black and brown poodles. That is why people speak about the theoretical V locus. Obviously some genetics are involved in the clearing that is observed, and the D locus does not explain it. We do know that if you breed a silver to a silver, you get silver puppies (provided that they are not ee), black to black you get black, black to silver you get blue and blue to blue you might get black, blue or silver. The idea of the V locus explains what we observe, but it is still theoretical.

Why would you think that all red poodles are actually dilutes? I don't think that much is known about the genetics behind why some ee poodles are white or cream and some are apricot or red, or about why some reds fade and some don't. But I doubt very much that the D locus has anything at all to do with it.


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## Vita

peppersb said:


> There is a test for the D locus. But this is not what generally causes fading in brown or black poodles. The genes responsible for the black poodles clearing to blue or silver have not yet been identified, so the V locus remains entirely theoretical. It makes sense that the companies that provide genetic testing would not mention it.


But they do mention it.



Vita said:


> Two DNA services that do full color panel testing are VetGen and DDC.
> 
> Under the D Locus section (for dilute genes), VetGen says, "The D locus is the primary locus associated with diluted pigment, which results in coats that would otherwise be black or brown instead showing up as gray, or blue in the case of black, and pale brown or Isabella in the case of brown. The melanophilin gene has recently been shown to be responsible, _but not all of the dilute causing mutations have been identified yet."_
> 
> And DDC says, "D locus (dilution-grey, blue, silver, lilac). Associated with the dilution or lightening effect of solid colors, with D being the dominant allele, the dd genotype results in the diluted effect (like grey, blue, silver, lilac, champagne)."


Another place, Animal Genetics, also does genetic and other color testing and the effect of dilute genes; I attached their chart. Read section D-Locus (Dilute Coat Color). D-Locus (Dilute Coat Color)



peppersb said:


> ... I have seen studs listed on breeder web sites with color testing mentioning something like BBEe, but I have never seen the D locus listed. So when you speak about "a faded black poodle that is EeBB dd," I do not think that such a poodle exists. Or if it does, it is a poodle that was born gray and it is extremely rare.


If it's extremely rare, why would the labs include it in their color testing packages and say in print it is a factor? If only one says this, we can suspect they're lying, but all of them? That's like an invitation to a lawsuit from breeders.

As for why a breeder would not mention it, I can easily think of a reason: U.S. poodles are more likely to fade (and for now, I'll presume it's due to having two dilute genes) than in the UK. If you have a young black stud that has two dilute genes and hasn't faded yet, or has one Dd gene and is black but a carrier, you might not want the buyer to know their puppies won't stay black, or if their dog has two dd genes and their stud has dd or Dd, they might look elsewhere for services. 



peppersb said:


> Why would you think that all red poodles are actually dilutes? I don't think that much is known about the genetics behind why some ee poodles are white or cream and some are apricot or red, or about why some reds fade and some don't. But I doubt very much that the D locus has anything at all to do with it.


I didn't say I thought all red poodles are dilutes. I said: 



Vita said:


> *The real question for me is red a product of dilute genes, and if so, how many?* None? One? Or two? Or it depends on the dog?
> 
> I'm curious b/c if you have a red poodle, with say eeBB DD genes, this means there is no dilute genes present. So if it is mated with a faded black poodle that is EeBB dd, the half of the pups would be black or red, and they'd be carriers of the dilute gene and would not fade.


Peppersb, I'm not saying that you're wrong or even that I'm right b/c I don't know; I'm searching for the best information out there. In general, I may be intrigued by a theory but never rarely sold on one until it's proven.

So when three different labs print something that runs contrary to a theory, particularly a theory that existed before advances in science and testing, it raises red flags for me. Kinda like, _show me_, or _the proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the DNA_. 

I'll bet there are some PF members here who have done the full coat color testing. It would be interesting if they mention whether their dog, regardless of color, had the dd genes. If so, what color changes have they seen?


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## peppersb

The various testing companies are doing color testing for all breeds, so of course they mention the D locus, and are happy to provide testing. But my understanding is that dd dogs are born with a dilute coat. In some breeds, "blue" dogs are born blue. But normally with poodles, we observe that blue or silver poodles are born black, and later clear to blue or silver. 

I think I'll step back now and hope that others will share their knowledge and experience.

PS. Note that the description of D locus here has a list of breeds that are affected by this mutation, and the list does not include poodles
https://www.genomia.cz/en/test/locus-d-dog/


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## Vita

Yes, I too would like to hear from others, and have also read that link, thank you. 

One thing that got me so curious in the first place is that I studied my pup's pedigree, and her mother was born a black but is an odd, undefinable color now. Her parents were a white and a silver. When I asked on another thread two weeks ago, what color is my dog? several members said this was not possible. That surprised me. 

It made me wonder if the mom is actually still transitioning from black to silver or blue or a bad black. She has a nice conformation and temperament, but I wonder if my pup will turn from black to another color. Her grandparents are also silvers and whites, and it isn't until the 4th generation that one of the great grandparents is black. 

The father is red from generations of reds, but _if_ he has no dilute genes, then my pup will only be a carrier and remain black. If he has one or two dilute genes, then with the mother's dilute (if she has this), my pup will likely change colors. She's so darn cute now it's hard to imagine her looking completely different in two or three years. 

This also has ramifications if I ever breed her and want to avoid litters of faded blacks and improve the breed. Given her ancestors, I'm not sure what the best color sire would be. Another black or red? A white? Silver? 

I ordered the full color test kit so it will be interesting to see what it says. I probably won't send it in until after the holidays so it'll be a while before I know.


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## spindledreams

First lets get the easy part answered. Red is NOT the result of a dilute gene. The whole red/apricot/cream/white spectrum are caused by the dog having two [e] genes which prevent the dog from producing black pigment. What causes each shade are modifiers which are not totally understood but basically you can collect + and - genes to darken or lighten the shade of "yellow" the dog is. These color dogs are always [ee] and can have any combination of the other genes ie DD Dd dd etc Each set of alleles is totally independent of the other sets of alleles. So your "yellow" dog could have all the genetics of a phantom but due to being [ee] it can't produce any black pigment so it appears yellow not as a black phantom. 

The Lab colors you mention are all the result of the dilute gene [d] MOST poodles are DD. The extremely rare [dd] poodles are actually called grey and many do suffer from Color dilution alopecia. 

Blue, silver, cafe' au lait, and silver beige are fading colors. The exact mechanics and genetics that causes a born black or brown dog to fade is unknown. There are a number of theories but none have been proved to be totally accurate. One thing that is known is that the fading gene(s) only work on bearded dogs. So your pale or fading labs are a totally different set of genes. 

One of the best sites out there for genetic information is Dog Coat Colour Genetics. She keeps it as up to date as possible and her site is easy to understand.


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## Johanna

peppersb said:


> We do know that if you breed a silver to a silver, you get silver puppies (provided that they are not ee), black to black you get black, black to silver you get blue and blue to blue you might get black, blue or silver. The idea of the V locus explains what we observe, but it is still theoretical.


So Zoe is black. Her father, Ch Aery's King of the Castle, is listed as blue. Her mother, Impressive Silver Angel, is silver. What do you think her genetic makeup might be? It will be interesting to see if she fades with age.


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## peppersb

Johanna said:


> So Zoe is black. Her father, Ch Aery's King of the Castle, is listed as blue. Her mother, Impressive Silver Angel, is silver. What do you think her genetic makeup might be? It will be interesting to see if she fades with age.


As far as the genetic makeup that can actually be tested, Zoe would be either BBEe, BBEE, BbEe, or BbEE. Those are the possibilities for a black (or born black) poodle.

The more interesting question is whether she will clear to blue or silver as she gets older. There is no genetic test for the clearing gene in poodles. But the theory that is generally accepted based on experience is that if you breed a silver to a blue, you will get silvers and blues, but no blacks. So I do not think that Zoe will remain black. If Zoe is a silver, you would see that her face is noticeably lighter by the time she is 8 or 9 weeks old (assuming that her face has been shaved). If she is blue, it can take up to 2 or even 3 years for her to clear. However, even with a blue, you should start to see some clearing on the face well before the 2 or 3 year mark. Your avatar looks like there is a little bit of clearing on her face -- or is that just the light? I'm guessing that she is blue.

The photos below are of one of Sam's sisters who is blue. As you can see, she started out looking very black, but now she is clearly blue.


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## Vita

Peppersb, the pics you showed of Sam's sister is a lot like the color of my puppy's mother. 

Like Johanna's dog, the mother also started off black but the breeder told me she "faded". The mother's parents were silver and white, and they also had silver and white parents. 

Look again at the pic of my pup on Post #7 on page 1 - her muzzle looks lighter than the rest of her. (Edit: I just shaved her face and now it's all black again.) 

I'm wondering if she will "clear", and end up blue, gray, silver or something else. 

What color is Sam's sister registered? Did you send in the papers as her color being black and later change it to blue? Or is that not possible with the AKC once you send in your registration? Thanks.


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## peppersb

Vita said:


> Peppersb, the pics you showed of Sam's sister is a lot like the color of my puppy's mother.
> 
> Like Johanna's dog, the mother also started off black but the breeder told me she "faded". The mother's parents were silver and white, and they also had silver and white parents.
> 
> Look again at the pic of my pup on Post #7 on page 1 - her muzzle looks lighter than the rest of her. (Edit: I just shaved her face and now it's all black again.)
> 
> I'm wondering if she will "clear", and end up blue, gray, silver or something else.
> 
> What color is Sam's sister registered? Did you send in the papers as her color being black and later change it to blue? Or is that not possible with the AKC once you send in your registration? Thanks.


Sam's sister is registered blue. We knew that she would be blue because her father is silver. Also, in her case, when she was groomed at 8 or 9 weeks, her face had a musty hue that was a sign that it was beginning to clear. But if one of the parent dogs is silver, then you know that the puppies are going to be blue or silver. The mother of this litter is my girl Cammie who is cream. When you have a cream or white parent, the fading genes that they carry are hidden -- they do not get expressed in the cream/white coat. So you have to look at the white/cream dog's parents. In our case, Cammie's mother is black and her father is blue. (Her father is registered black, but he is blue -- registered colors are not always accurate as you noted previously.) So using the terminology that is widely used, but refers to genes that have not been found, Sam's sister is Vv. She got a V (clearing) from her silver father and a v (non-clearing) from her mother.

I'm quite sure that your puppy will clear to blue, based on the fact that she has one silver parent. Also -- the photo in post 7 does look like she is beginning to clear. If your puppy was going to be silver the clearing would be a lot more apparent by now.

I know that AKC does not allow you to change the name of a dog. I don't know if they do or do not allow you to change the color.


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## Johanna

peppersb said:


> As far as the genetic makeup that can actually be tested, Zoe would be either BBEe, BBEE, BbEe, or BbEE. Those are the possibilities for a black (or born black) poodle.
> However, even with a blue, you should start to see some clearing on the face well before the 2 or 3 year mark. Your avatar looks like there is a little bit of clearing on her face -- or is that just the light? I'm guessing that she is blue.
> 
> The photos below are of one of Sam's sisters who is blue. As you can see, she started out looking very black, but now she is clearly blue.


Zoe's face hair is quite black - it was freshly clipped in the avatar photo. I wonder how poodles get listed as blue since they are usually registered when they are young and are at that time presumably black?


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## peppersb

Johanna said:


> Zoe's face hair is quite black - it was freshly clipped in the avatar photo. I wonder how poodles get listed as blue since they are usually registered when they are young and are at that time presumably black?


Hi Johanna -- I can think of quite a few answers to your question.

1. If one of the parents is silver, then you know that the puppy will be blue or silver. It is usually pretty easy to tell the difference between silver and blue by the time the pups are 8 weeks old.

2. The breeder that I have worked with in breeding both Cammie and Sam says that blue or silver poodles are born with a few white hairs in the pads to their paws. All of the pups in our recent Jackie x Sam litter had these white hairs. Genetically (as far as we know), this breeding could have produced black, blue or silver. But based on the white hairs at birth, we are expecting that they will all clear to blue or silver. Looks like most of them are going to be blue.

3. Different breeders handle registration in different ways. Some breeders like to register the pups themselves. Others register the litter and give the registration papers for the individual puppies to the new owners. Then the new owners can register the puppies, or not register them, as they choose. If the new owner is the one registering the puppy, they can wait for a while before registering and see how the color develops. I think you have to register within a year, but I'm not sure.

4. There definitely are a lot of mistakes out there! It is not unusual to see a blue poodle that was registered as black. 

Here are some pictures of puppies from the Jackie x Sam litter when they were about 8 weeks old. Not hard to identify the puppy that will be silver!


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## Vita

I am still exploring the DD, Dd, and dd dilute alleles/genes which can be determined by genetic color testing rather than subscribing to the _theory_ of VV, Vv, and vv genes.

It's been said here on PF that the Dd or dd alleles are rare in poodles; so far haven't seen a science-based link supporting this. If anyone has one, please provide it. If it turns out to be rare, then we can accept that another unknown gene is involved in fading... which would likely bring us back to the V theory.

For now, I'll propose this based on https://www.genomia.cz/en/pudl/

If one parent that was born black has the faded, charcoal gray, blue, or silver color, it would have two d alleles; in other words, it would be dd. 

If the other parent, say a red poodle, has DD alleles, then it would _not_ be a carrier of any dilute genes. 

A breeding between the two would result in the litter having Dd - and thus those puppies would be a _carrier_ of fading _but would not fade_. 

We can extrapolate this information applying to red poodles too. 

See the simplified color chart and the comments on that link about silvers having the dd alleles.


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## peppersb

Vita -- Your theory is very easy to prove or disprove. Just get a few silver poodles and test them for D/d. If your theory is correct, they will be dd. I'm betting that they will be DD.


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## CharismaticMillie

Vita said:


> I am still exploring the DD, Dd, and dd dilute alleles/genes which can be determined by genetic color testing rather than subscribing to the _theory_ of VV, Vv, and vv genes.
> 
> It's been said here on PF that the Dd or dd alleles are rare in poodles; so far haven't seen a science-based link supporting this. If anyone has one, please provide it. If it turns out to be rare, then we can accept that another unknown gene is involved in fading... which would likely bring us back to the V theory.
> 
> For now, I'll propose this based on https://www.genomia.cz/en/pudl/
> 
> If one parent that was born black has the faded, charcoal gray, blue, or silver color, it would have two d alleles; in other words, it would be dd.
> 
> If the other parent, say a red poodle, has DD alleles, then it would _not_ be a carrier of any dilute genes.
> 
> A breeding between the two would result in the litter having Dd - and thus those puppies would be a _carrier_ of fading _but would not fade_.
> 
> We can extrapolate this information applying to red poodles too.
> 
> See the simplified color chart and the comments on that link about silvers having the dd alleles.


The scientific basis for dd locus dilute not being found (except rarely) in poodles is easily proven by testing a blue or silver poodle with the D Locus test. 

Oops I see Peppersb got to that before me.


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## Johanna

Zoe is now 9 months old - no white or silver hairs anywhere. I will ask Betty what color the other puppies in the litter turned out to be.

Zoe is intensely black - not counting the sunburning that has caused the tips of some hairs to be brownish. Of course, she may "fade" to blue eventually.


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## peppersb

Johanna said:


> Zoe is now 9 months old - no white or silver hairs anywhere. I will ask Betty what color the other puppies in the litter turned out to be.
> 
> Zoe is intensely black - not counting the sunburning that has caused the tips of some hairs to be brownish. Of course, she may "fade" to blue eventually.


The white hairs in the paws of puppies that I referred to in post #14 are just in newborns. Also, their nails are white (or light colored) when they are born. There should be no white hairs by the time she was ready to come home with you (and the nails should be black). A blue poodle will not normally have white or silver hairs. All of the hair will eventually turn dark gray, usually with the face and feet a little bit lighter than the body. A brownish hue is sometimes seen as blue poodles begin to clear.

I have seen blue poodles take 2 or 3 years to clear. Sam's first litter is now 9 months old, and some of them are still very black. But we do expect them to clear to blue.


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## spindledreams

Most silver and blue dogs who have been tested for the "D" series have come back as DD including my blue boy so that kills that theory. However fading is known in breeds other then the poodle. ALL are bearded breeds. This includes the Bedlington, Dandi Dinmont, and Bearded Collie just to name a few. Doodles have displayed extreme fading in the F1 generation showing that their lab or golden parent probably carried the fading genetics without it ever being displayed. If you really want an answer to your question perhaps the Coat color and Genetics group on Facebook could give you more recent information about the research into it.

My understanding is that most dogs who have tested as [Dd] or [dd] have been miniatures. When a [dd] dog is produced they are registered as grey. They frequently suffer from Color dilution alopecia (CDA) which is a skin condition linked to the dilute color in many breeds.


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## CharismaticMillie

About white hairs in the paws. In 3 litters most of my black puppies have had white hairs in their paws as newborns. Most of them have gone on to be average color blacks, a few bad blacks, and one true blue.


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## Coldbrew

dilute (dd) is not the cause of progressive greying in poodles

dilute (dd) does not exist in most of the standard poodle gene pool (a few toys/minis do exist)

my current line of armchair research is on how furnishings interact with the progressive greying gene (the true cause of blue/silver/cafe au lait/silver beige). doodle breeders are finding that dogs with a single copy of furnishings do not fade. even if there is nothing to the theory, it’s great fun to explore it


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## Vita

Hi everyone! I sent a letter to canine geneticist at a university asking about this. It turns out that she's been heavily involved in research color testing and DNA in poodles for decades. To protect her privacy, she said,

_"Born blue is caused by dd (not fading) but the gene for progressive greying has not yet been discovered, so there is not a DNA test for this. Therefore the breeders who say they can't test for progressive greying are correct. It is thought to be dominant allele, and therefore your pup has a 50% chance of having inherited it IF only one parent carried it. The Progressive Graying allele was named G by C.C. Little. I have never heard of V."_

She also said not all color testing labs are equally reliable.

I'll next write the labs that actually do color tests. It seems to me they ought to be able to pull up stats on which color poodles have the DD, Dd, and dd genes; whether someone there wants to take the time to do this has yet to be seen. At least this would answer if it's rare among colors other than blue.


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## spindledreams

Grin I think I know who you talked to she is a great person. Currently researching how the pattern genes work in poodles...


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## BorderKelpie

Just for grins and giggles as dd happens in herding and terrier breeds. a dog that is dd will be born with a diute colored nose, paw pads, eyes, etc. 

A black pup with dd will be born with a greyish blue nose, not a black one. A brown pup with dd will have a pinkish tone to their points. 

It's a dilution, not a fade. It dilutes all color - hair, eyes, and skin.


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## NOLA Standards

Vita, great interest. Join the Poodle Color Genetics group on FB. The creator and Admin is Barbara Hoopes and Barbara has been involved in some of the newer poodle color research. She presents white papers to the group and explains the findings.

There is so much simply unknown, so we stay within the known science. It's a very informative group though. You might find it helpful.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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