# Mini Poo Mix Heart Murmur



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Sadly just because the words weren't said by a vet it sounds like congestive heart failure to me. I think if she can be made comfortable she is likely to tell you when she is ready to go (loss of appetite and other related signs). If you are determined to try to get weight back on her look up satin balls. They are an excellent way to get a thin dog to gain some weight. My childhood beagle died of CHF, she had always had a murmur that did get worse later in her life. We were able to manage her situation medically for several years before she told us she was ready to leave.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Just wanted to send you a virtual hug. I hope your dog can be made more comfortable with medication.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

We went thru this with our Noel. I'm going by memory only for now. You might be able to use our experience for comparison.

Nelly was diagnosed with a stage 1 murmur in probably 2012. We trusted our vet's judgment and experience and didn't go to specialists. Based on his advice and my internet research, we adopted a wait and see approach. Xrays did show some heart enlargement but since she was showing no other symptoms, she wasn't put on any medication. She did have that slight cough.

We went on with normal life for about 3 years. The murmur progressed but slowly. 

Then one afternoon probably early 2015 she just passed out. Terrified, we got her to the vet and that's when we started her on the Lasix/Furosemide. The Lasix was to reduce retained fluids and would help keep the syncope and stress on her heart to a minimum. The murmur was progressing but she still wasn't in actual failure. His opinion, and I also researched some reputable sites, was that you don't give the heart meds til failure commences. The meds aren't effective til the thing they fight actually exists. It's remarkably similar to treatment for human heart failure. It all only manages and delays. 

Mid 2015 she moved in to actual failure so we went with the Vetmedin and continued the Lasix. She was holding her own, living pretty normally for almost another year.

Towards the end of August 2016, she went into acute decompensation-the body can no longer compensate and things start downhill much more quickly. The medications were no longer effective since her heart was just wearing out.
No medications for this condition can cure, they just give more time and hopefully better time. Since there wasn't a cure and meds were no longer effective, we knew it was time to let her go.

In your situation, it's quite possible that the murmur did only develop from one visit to the next or was slight enough to not be easily detectable. That's what happened with Nell. It's also possible for it to move thru stages (those stages are 1-6 fyi) at different rates and even hold for a while, but the progression to full CHF is almost always inevitable. The murmur itself is more like a symptom rather than an actual diagnosis. Heart disease is the diagnosis.

Your girls heart murmur is about stage 4, your vet has her on the gold standard meds for heart failure, her heart is enlarged and she's having more or worse symptoms. I'd have to agree with lily cd re that she is now in heart failure. 

I'm not advising you whether to go to a cardiologist or not. I felt comfortable with my vet's knowledge and experience, with my own internet research backing him up, with my experience working in my dad's office (he was a doctor) and watching his own experience with heart failure. That's what allowed me to feel I wasn't stinting my girl on care. So long as the diagnosis is right, treatment from your regular vet and a cardiologist probably wouldn't be that different. Do ask your vet if they feel a specialist can give you a different outcome. Different or additional meds may make a difference for her, at least for some time. Ask your vet to go over heart failure symptoms and stages with you. Ask them for all the medical facts they have to offer, so you can decide what steps to take and so you know what to look for.

You said your girl is still eating but is losing weight and she's coughing more. Is she less active in general? Less interested in her fun things? Nell had slowed down noticeably in June of 2016 but still enjoyed life til almost her last day.

Hard, hard things to go thru, we all know.


(apparently Harvard Medical School and the Wyss Institute are doing a study on gene therapy to actually halt Mitral Valve disease in dogs. This is probably not helpful for you at this time but shows that the science is always evolving, so ask your vet what the latest information is on heart disease and where you can read about it.)


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I think Rose n Poos has given you a very good insight as to what is going on with your dear Kiley. It is a heartbreaking dx and watching a beloved pet get sicker and sicker and feeling helpless to cure them is just so agonizing! Enjoy her, spoil her, make good memories for yourself with her......take that 'one day at a time' and make each and every one of them as good as you are able, then when it is time, let her cross that bridge peacefully. Bless you both............


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## TK9NY (Jan 6, 2017)

Thanks, guys, for the kind words. I've been preparing myself for CHF ever since the diagnosis of the murmur. I know that there is no cure for it. At this point i'm mostly looking for advice on how to manage her symptoms as they progress, because they ARE progressing (and faster than i would have liked them to.)

I trust my vet 100%, he's been very good with her and with getting her in. If he says a cardiologist or specialist might be able to do something for her (IE: the coughing) that he can't, then i might have to beg my parents for help getting her there but it might be worth it to try if he thinks it'll help (like i said - i trust him.)

But for the most part, other than the weight loss and the coughing, she's been okay. Her health is otherwise good - a few small fatty lumps that you can feel but can't see, and her back legs are getting weaker, but nothing too serious or that we've ever been concerned over. Old age stuff, the vet calls it. We haven't had any issues with her pancreatitis in the past couple of years, either, so thank goodness for that!

Yes, she is more lethargic - i think she sleeps most of the day, not counting when they are crated while i'm at work. But she does eat, she does play, and will go for walks when i offer them. She's never been that active though, because i'm pretty lazy myself - Dublin gets us both moving (lol).

She's eating right now, actually - between her and Dublin they just killed off about a cup of food and she's still going (lol). She still barks at the squirrels and the neighbors, she still instigates play (and responds to it), we still go for walks when it isn't too cold (for me - they couldn't care less). It's crazy to watch her chase Dublin around the house when they get going - happens at least once a day!

So i don't think she's anywhere near ready to give up, but we do need to figure out the coughing. It's keeping all of us up at night. And it can't be comfortable for her. So that's probably going to be my main focus for her at this point, any suggestions?! Or is it something we'll have to live with from here on out?

Lily - re: the satin balls, i looked those up a while back but i'm leery to try them with her only because she has had pancreatitis in the past.... i do NOT want to trigger that at this point, last time she had it she was in ER vet for a few days and i don't think her heart could take that at this point. Do you think they would trigger it? Or is there something else i can try? I'll ask the vet when we go, but suggestions are always great. He isn't TOO concerned about the weight loss at this point but if we can't get it to stop it may be an issue.....


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Sounds like you're on top of this. Any treatment for the cough depends on the reason. If it's from fluid build up they usually increase the diuretic, if it's from airway compression due to the heart enlargement it would be treated symptomatically. It may not be related to the heart issues at all, tho it likely is. 

Does she sound like she's trying to hack up a furball? That usually indicates airway compression. That's the cough Noel had, so it's the one I know. It did change later because of the pulmonary edema to a very different sounding and longer duration coughing spell.

Your vet should be able to tell from the xrays already taken which type of cough is present, but it's always possible the views taken were not ideal for figuring this out. 

Ask your vet if they can determine the reason for the cough from the xrays and if you can record the cough and play it for them, it may not require an additional visit.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

TK9NY, So sorry to hear that your beloved poodle-schnauzer Kiley has developed a serious heart condition. I too am sending you a virtual hug.


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## TK9NY (Jan 6, 2017)

Rose n Poos said:


> Sounds like you're on top of this. Any treatment for the cough depends on the reason. If it's from fluid build up they usually increase the diuretic, if it's from airway compression due to the heart enlargement it would be treated symptomatically. It may not be related to the heart issues at all, tho it likely is.
> 
> Does she sound like she's trying to hack up a furball? That usually indicates airway compression. That's the cough Noel had, so it's the one I know. It did change later because of the pulmonary edema to a very different sounding and longer duration coughing spell.
> 
> ...


I"m going to try to link to a video so you guys can hear what i'm talking about - the video i have is pretty brief and only a fraction of what happens at night, but it's an example. 

It's a very wet sounding cough, most of the time, and she does occasionally bring up fluid.... but i don't know where the fluid might be coming from if her x-rays showed no build up....? Sometimes it's a wheezing cough, which i think might be the heart pressing on the trachea? And sometimes it's just very short sharp coughs which i've heard a lot of in dogs that come to the salon that have murmurs. 

So many different kinds, but it's the night time ones that worry me most (and keep us up lol.) Let me know if it doesn't work......

https://www.facebook.com/TK9NY/videos/10214425509452314/


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Sorry, I can't get access to it. Says it could be expired or only visible to an audience I may not be a member of. I'll keep trying.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Sorry you are going through this.

Your vet might decide to adjust the amount/frequency of her medications (esp. Lasix) to help with her cough and symptoms. Has she ever had an echocardiogram ultrasound? That will give you alot of good information as well.

That's a big weight loss in a year! I am Always wary about free feeding dogs that are losing weight. I don't like it, especially if two dogs are sharing food. There is a good chance that she is not eating as much as you think, and its hard to have a clear cut amount on how much she is exactly eating vs. the other dog eating it. I would tell you to not free feed both dogs, and to actually put her on a schedule and make sure your other dog goes no where near her bowl while she is eating. You need to know Exactly how much she is eating and when to get a handle on her weight. It's also extremely important to know if she is still losing weight despite eating well (and you can tell the vet exactly how much she is actually eating or not eating in each meal).


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## TK9NY (Jan 6, 2017)

bigpoodleperson said:


> Sorry you are going through this.
> 
> Your vet might decide to adjust the amount/frequency of her medications (esp. Lasix) to help with her cough and symptoms. Has she ever had an echocardiogram ultrasound? That will give you alot of good information as well.
> 
> That's a big weight loss in a year! I am Always wary about free feeding dogs that are losing weight. I don't like it, especially if two dogs are sharing food. There is a good chance that she is not eating as much as you think, and its hard to have a clear cut amount on how much she is exactly eating vs. the other dog eating it. I would tell you to not free feed both dogs, and to actually put her on a schedule and make sure your other dog goes no where near her bowl while she is eating. You need to know Exactly how much she is eating and when to get a handle on her weight. It's also extremely important to know if she is still losing weight despite eating well (and you can tell the vet exactly how much she is actually eating or not eating in each meal).


There is no way to keep them from sharing unless i feed them in their crates. I don't have "separate rooms" to put them in and i dont really have doorways to gate off. 

I don't know that they would actually eat in their crates (he might, she might not) but I'll give it a shot, maybe add some yummy stuff to get them to actually eat, and then just leave some food out as usual as "extra"..... i guess i'm more concerned about her getting food than him lol. 

She's only ever had x-rays. I'm almost afraid to ask what anything extra would cost. Like i said, i'm a bit tight on $$ - if i need to ask for help my parents will do it, but if it's not something that's going to help treat her.... i'll ask when we go, see what the vet says.

I tried to upload a video to youtube so lets see if this works:






I'm also going to ask about the remote possibility of an underlying issue causing the coughing - kennel cough? She's always UTD on her shots, and rarely goes anywhere anymore, but she got KC a year or so ago despite it. I'm pretty sure it's the heart though. 

She's also got two chipped teeth. The vet didn't want to do anything about them until we got the murmur under control, which obviously isn't happening.... if that matters? Grasping at straws here, lol.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

That cough sounds to me like the coughing up a hairball cough. There's a hoarse sound to it also. IF it is the airway compression cough, then that might be helped by cough meds. 

Your vet will obviously be able to give you much better info. If you can play the video for them, in case she doesn't do it while at the vet? Did the vet explain what they meant by getting the murmur under control? 

I don't know what the ECG might cost but I know we were quoted $400-$600 for an abdominal ultrasound (other poodle sister, other condition) here in our Kansas-side suburb of Kansas City.

Try not to feel guilty if some of these things are just not something you can do. Probably very few people can spend what it can cost without having to worry about finances too. I don't know how it works but I've also heard of something called Care Credit. Someone else here may know what I mean and can give info on that. Is there a Vet school nearby maybe? I mean something like we have at K-State. They can often do things at a lower price than at the vet's or the specialist's. I know you want to do all you can, but it's as loving to focus on helping her have the best quality of life in an incurable situation.

The main thing is to find out what's causing the cough so you'll know what to do next. 

Keep us updated as you can.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

Sorry to hear that you are going through this! Hoping that you'll figure out the (heart issues and) coughing with your vet, so you can give your dog some reprieve from the hacking. 

Did she have a bad case of KC? Rocky had KC when he was a puppy; he wasn't so bad that he was on IV support at the vet, but was a bad enough case that it required around the clock home care. Every once in a while when he get's super excited or if he is running vigorously he will do a hack, hack, clear-the-throat-fluidy-final-cough similar to your dog. That being said, he doesn't continue to hack like your dog, he will do it at most 2 times in a row. I'm no expert on KC of course, but could be something to explore.

It's great you have a video so you can show the vet and hopefully they can help you with a diagnosis.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

That sounds like a fluid in the lungs or around the heart cough. Poor girl. Have you talked to your vet about increasing the Lasix to get rid of the fluid? Another vet exam if absolutely in her future and discuss your options. Repeat radiographs would be indicated to see if there is fluid build up this time, but that would be up to your vet.


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## TK9NY (Jan 6, 2017)

bigpoodleperson said:


> That sounds like a fluid in the lungs or around the heart cough. Poor girl. Have you talked to your vet about increasing the Lasix to get rid of the fluid? Another vet exam if absolutely in her future and discuss your options. Repeat radiographs would be indicated to see if there is fluid build up this time, but that would be up to your vet.


She had an x-ray done a week or two ago, there was no fluid in the lungs or around the heart that he saw (he just said that it was fairly enlarged). Prior to that she was having similar coughing, and the x-ray about a month ago showed fluid in the lungs, so we went from one dose of the Lasix per day to two and that apparently cleared up the lungs. 

I'm going to ask about further testing that he can do to figure out the source of the cough, and the state of her heart beyond what x-rays can show, and payment options - maybe i can apply for care credit or something. I know he accepts it. 

galofpink - she had KC a while back. Coupe of years, probably. We treated it at home (per vet advice). The coughing sounded similar to this but cough medicine reduced it that time, when she first started coughing this go around it did nothing for it. I suppose it could be KC, or there could be an underlying issue, making the coughing worse.... which is why i'm bringing her back to the vet this week. 

She just spent the better part of the last half hour playing, with me and her brother, so she's in good spirits despite the coughing. And i left about a cup of food in her pen with her since she didn't want to eat this morning - my mom let them out around 5 and said she ate most of it, plus another half a cup (ish) with some scrambled egg (my mom spoils them.) I'm going to try and monitor her eating a little bit better to keep track of her appetite.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Just dropping in to wish you all Happy New Year and to ask how Kiley is doing.


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