# The dog we love to hate! Children and pit bulls.



## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Here is much of the truth.
Should people with children or babies be banned from owning pit bulls?
That… or wear a holstered gun 24/7.
Personally, I’ve been around a few, and I don’t trust them.
Without exception, every single one that I’ve come into contact with would not look me square in the eyes. They turn their head sideways and look at you out of the corner of their eyes… this is a very bad sign. Lookup “whale eyes”.
They have an innate “fear”. That fear can turn to rage in a heartbeat.
Being around one is like being in the presence of a 2-year-old with a live hand grenade.
.
*“How many pit bulls are in the United States?*
There are approximately 3.6 million pit bulls in the United States. Of those 3.6 million, an estimated 1.2 million will end up in a shelter. “
I took this from a “Pit bull Lover” site… I won’t serve to help spread their lies by linking to it.
Read the quote again.
Think about it for just a second.
THEY make the statement that 1/3 of ALL “pit bulls” will wind-up in a shelter.
Ask yourself ONE question:
WHY?
They DON’T wind-up there for no reason at all.
It’s the #1 surrendered breed of dog (type actually - “pit bull” is NOT a breed).
They EARN their reputation… over, and over, and over:
Pit Bulls alone have killed hundreds of children and maimed untold thousands, tearing their faces to shreds and ripping-off limbs:
91% of dog attack disfigurement victims in 2016 were mauled by pit bulls
U.S. Children Killed by Pit Bulls - Fatal Pit Bull Attacks - The Archival Record - DogsBite.org
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In the U.S. dogs kill MANY more people every year than school shootings.
Period……..…….School Fatalities…………Dog Bite Fatalities
30 year total….…. 256…………………………….758
20 year total……....192………………………….…611
10 year total……....102………………………….…357
2019 so far………….….3………………………….......36 (23 by pit bull)..14 children (8 pit bull)
Dog bite deaths are on pace to exceed 40 in 2019.
Fatal dog attacks in the United States - Wikipedia
2019 U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities - DogsBite.org
Notice the ever-increasing frequency of killings by dogs vs. deaths in school shootings?
In the early 90’s they averaged in the high teens, today the yearly average for dog bite fatalities is in the high 30’s and rising.
2012 was the worst year in the past 30 for school shootings - and yet the dog bite fatality 10 year average is nearly that high..
Currently 3.5X as many are killed yearly by DOGS as die in school shootings, and that disparity is rising.
2X more children are killed by dogs than in school shootings.
100X more children are maimed.
Here’s a visual aid:









More later:act-up:


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## SamieNorman (Aug 9, 2019)

Very interesting to see these data points... 

Now at first I use to think these breeds were misunderstood (as some are). Some people are afraid of my english bulldogs because of the teeth and muscles. But now I truly think that there is something about these pitbull dogs to where if they are not trained well and socialized (more than the average dog) than I think they can snap.
I really hate saying this because I know many people who ADORE their pits and trust them around their infants, but these dogs just have a "switch" like I have never seen before.
I came to my final conclusion that I do not trust a pitbull around me or my dog after one got after Norman and traumatized both of us. The dog was very slow (head turned odd) while smelling Norman, NO TAIL WAG, then BOOM. Went after Norman, growling and biting and pouncing all at once. Horrid. This pit was a girl who completely ignored her owner yelling for her to stop which was not helpful. I had to physically pull him away and RUN holding my dog. 
These dogs I am sure can be wonderful dogs, there are photos/videos all over the internet about how sweet they can be, but I think based upon these experiences and the data points (if true) really need extra meticulous training and socializing. Sometimes there is a reason for stereotypes... 

There is a show many know, Pit-bulls and Parolees, which I love to watch. They show wonderful pits who are loving and kind.... but they show the stereotypical horror these dogs can be if provoked, not trained, or bad breeding... One episode showed this one pit who was vicious to anyone, and would even go after his owner under stress. This dog could not be helped and the owner couldn't put him down so she build basically a prison in her backyard where he was confined to the yard only. Very very sad. She was convinced he would change but the trainer thought he was a sad case of bad breeding where his chemicals were all messed up.

Very interesting. This is a very controversial topic. I like to believe there are many wonderful pits, but I think to get them they need extra TLC and meticulous training/socialization.


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## SamieNorman (Aug 9, 2019)

Glitch happened and the forum posted my response twice, I apologize. Trying to deleted second response.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

SamieNorman said:


> Very interesting to see these data points...
> 
> Now at first I use to think these breeds were misunderstood (as some are). Some people are afraid of my english bulldogs because of the teeth and muscles. But now I truly think that there is something about these pitbull dogs to where if they are not trained well and socialized (more than the average dog) than I think they can snap.
> I really hate saying this because I know many people who ADORE their pits and trust them around their infants, but these dogs just have a "switch" like I have never seen before.
> ...



:adore::adore::adore:

A very well balanced and good assessment of these poor dogs that I, for one do not hate. I hate that there are people who have exploited them and changed them. Yes, they were always a type of dog used and selected for fighting animals. But they were directly/actively selected AGAINST viciousness toward humans. Things have gone awry. And it's obvious why. (Oh there I go again...rhyming...can't help it. lol) Anyhow, like you said, poor breeding. When a dog is very popular, out of the woodwork come breeders who don't care how they breed, don't pay any attention to temperament or anything else, don't care who they sell their dogs to and if they're those tough guy wanna-be type, they wind up mistreating their dogs half the time. Many times these dogs are not supervised sufficiently. 

I have personally known several that a young woman rescued and worked with. They were sweet. She said some were used for fighting...you could see scars all over and they were still sweet. Most were. I think one she said was dog aggressive but she didn't have any that had been aggressive toward humans. But I know it happens and that is the fault of human beings, not the dogs themselves. So no...I don't hate the dogs. I feel a terrible pity for them. What I do hate is mob mentality. That's why I liked your post so much SN. It was not the fly off the handle gang up on every Pit Bull month when it should be about the human beings taking responsibility. It was sensible and well thought-out.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

I appreciate the public service announcement, Eric. I think the data speaks for itself here.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Just to play devil's advocate, only 29 humans were killed by a pit or pit-type dog in 2018 out of the 3.6 million pits in the US. That means statistically you have a .0008% chance of dying from your own pit or one close to you (neighbor, dog sitting job, training). Of course, the dogs and other pets killed by pits is a much higher number.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Just to play devil's advocate, only 29 humans were killed by a pit or pit-type dog in 2018 out of the 3.6 million pits in the US. That means statistically you have a .0008% chance of dying from your own pit or one close to you (neighbor, dog sitting job, training). Of course, the dogs and other pets killed by pits is a much higher number.



Gosh! You're good at math! :alberteinstein: Statistics drive me bonkers sometimes. They aren't always representative of the real world. 

Anyhow, I still blame the humans involved that allow things to go wrong, not the animals themselves.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Gosh! You're good at math! :alberteinstein: Statistics drive me bonkers sometimes. They aren't always representative of the real world.
> 
> Anyhow, I still blame the humans involved that allow things to go wrong, not the animals themselves.


Absolutely it is human fault what's happened to the dogs. I don't blame them dogs in the slightest.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Since my DH and late Scottie were viciously attacked by a pair of them, I’m not a fan. If I had been walking Charlie, I wouldn’t have had a chance and Charlie would probably have been killed. A few years ago, Eric posted a link to their breed forum and that was a eye opener. Even their owners say we’re right to keep ours on the other side of the street. After two, they can be time bombs. I resent that there are so many are in our shelters and innocent, well-meaning adopting families are not thoroughly briefed on the use of break sticks or potential out of the blue aggression.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I just... don't understand the popular love of pitbulls (especially in the US). There are so many breeds of dogs... why choose one bred specifically for dog aggression? Call me lazy, but I like to stack the odds in my favour by choosing a dog suited to the environment/task i want them to live in. I've not trusted the body language of any of the pit bulls or pit bull crosses (sorry, "lab" or "boxer" crosses) I've met that have been imported from the US. 

Pit bulls are banned here, but I am similarly saddened by the number of german shepherds, dobermans, huskies, and rotties I see cooped up on apartment balconeys, barking like mad - a recipe for problems. Cane corsos are becoming an issue. There was a nervous and sharp 8 month old at the dog park I frequent one day. Apparently the mother was so aggressive they had to separate her when they came to pick up the puppy. I watched her and thought "bad temperament". Sure enough, the owners were planning to breed her... I have met Canes with a good temperment (watchful and alert, but not nervous), but not that one! I have met quite a few dogs bred by people who's only criteria for selecting two dogs to be bred is their gender and the potential money to be made!

I know part of it is budget. A well bred puppy from a "family friendly" breed is about $2000+ here, a poorly bred German Shepherd/boxer/staffordshire/husky (or cross) is $500, so the people with the least resources buy the most difficult dogs.

I am not anti- whatever breed. I just feel like there are a lot of breeds that most people shouldn't own... 

(Also - I think the school shootings analogy is a bit overwrought. You can be against dog bites AND think it is unacceptable for kids to die at school. It's a bad use of statistics to conflate those two numbers)


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

While I personally have never liked pitt bulls they kinda scare me I started to help my neighbor by pet sitting her dogs, which our shelter foster failures. Her one is mix and doesn't look all that pitt but he is very elderly and really is just happy to get food and be let out. Then she has a young female who is very pitt, all muscle and head, she is large and extremely muscular and I would not want to meet her in the street...however she is very very friendly and lovable just wants to be petted and is happy to lay next to you and sleep. Now I do not walk either of them I only let them out back into her fenced yard to do their business then back in. I also go and watch them. Last time I sat she has a new neighbor and her pitt ran to the fence line and struck her head into the fence and busted it.(just one panel and the fence is old). While she always leaves them out for about 2 hours I do not. I told her about the fence and hope she fixes it, if not I will as I don't want to be responsible. While this pitt is people friendly she is not by any means dog friendly, she and her husband walk her together but really I think they are clueless as to what damage she could do.


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

As a past owner of a Neapolitan Mastiff (160 pounds worth) the personalities of fighting breeds are very specifically different than other dogs'. They were bred over hundreds of years with a very specific interest in a set behavior during a fight - which is to never quit. Pair this with a locking jaw, an overinflated sense of self, an overinflated interest in aggression, an overinflated sense of butting into any situation that has nothing to do with them, a body that is per pound more muscular than any other breed, a skin that does not register pain the same way it does in other dogs - and what you get is a perfect nightmare.
Dog licenses specific to dangerous breeds make perfect sense to me. I am not for a ban of these breeds but you don't want uneducated owners on top of all that.
And the other problematic part to this is the rescue militia with its own agenda and the overflow of fighting dog rings that keep overpopulating shelters that then again find their way into unsuspecting pet homes where they will have uneducated owners with little or no true experience with dogs in general and fighting machines in particular. Legislation would be needed to change all that - but it would have to start at the rescue - shelter end to make a real dent (which will most likely never happen in the US).


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Actually, they don't have a locking jaw. They just have incredible strength and tenacity. But they weren't bred to be aggressive to humans. It's just a shame what has happened in recent years. 

The History of Pit Bulls – Love-A-Bull


Here's something about service dogs. A pit bull service dog was confiscated by the local government from a lady who loved and needed her dog. The dog didn't do anything wrong. This is why I _hate_ breed legislation/discrimination. If a dog bites someone, proves to be a menace, of course it should be confiscated and the owner fined. But this as described is just wrong. 

https://animalfarmfoundation.blog/2013/07/24/pit-bull-service-dogs/

Personally, I like the "breed." It's actually not a breed unless it's an APBT. But what I don't like is what's happened to them, what the irresponsible owners don't do to protect people and other dogs...let them run amok, don't care. That's what I hate. I think they're beautiful animals that if bred, handled and treated, trained nicely, they're great. I have had a dog that's 1/2 pit bull, 1/2 GSD... wonderful dog in every way. Never dog aggressive either. I hate the mob mentality too. They need to enact strict laws to hold owners of _ANY_ dangerous dog with a bite history accountable. These _people_ need more than a slap on the wrist for being irresponsible.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Most insurance companies get all caught up in the media drama and hysteria and refuse insurance to people with certain breeds. I had a Doberman and when I asked different insurance companies for home owners insurance in Idaho, I got one that simply asked if any of my dogs had ever bitten anyone. And my Dobe never did bite anyone. He was a CGC to boot. So they had no problem selling me insurance. 

I had a niece ask me when I was planning on getting a Doberman pup, "what if he bites someone?" Wha??? Actually, her hound mix bit her for moving her legs under the covers!!! My Dad said, "they turn on their masters. What a mistake getting a Doberman." My Doberman, as many was one of the most sensible, lovely dogs I ever had. He was a perfect gentleman and on a few occasions involving an intruder or someone unknown when I wasn't right there, he warned but never flew off the handle, never bit. If I was there, he watched and assessed, never took it on himself unless called for. What a perfect protection dog. I'm sorry but the ignorance I heard with this dog was just too much.:stupido2:


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I once looked at a historical table of dog bite statistics, and at one point in US history, the 1950’s(?), the top breed was the cocker spaniel! I assumed they were having a moment of popularity. DH’s tennis coach has a Cane Corso, dear Lord, what a scary ugly breed. (I hope they don’t have a moment!) He often brought his massive male to the club, and kids would clamber all over him. His CC had a rock solid temperament and died without ever having a doggy misdemeanor or felony on his record. That’s what every owner of a guardian breed, pit bull or pit cross, needs to aspire to and achieve. The rest of us, too 

My husband would never have been attacked, if the owner had been more responsible. You cannot allow live hand grenades to roll out into the street.


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Actually, they don't have a locking jaw. They just have incredible strength and tenacity. But they weren't bred to be aggressive to humans. It's just a shame what has happened in recent years.
> 
> 
> While their jaws are not physically different their bite style sure as hell is! If you quote things from a site called "Love-a-Bull" better buckle up for loads of bull! Btw I am in no way anti Bully Breeds I have owned one! And I flirted with owning another (until more sensible people talked me out of it!). I love our neighbor pit to death - she is Louie's big love interest! And I adore a girl Staffie! BUT I have also had to run for my life being chased by a Pitbull and I had to fight (whilst holding two large dogs on leashes) with a team of American Bulldogs on a public trail that meant to mess up my dogs. I know too much about breeds in general and bully breeds in particular to not be worried. It would be nice if we would concentrate on the facts and Breed legislation is a good idea - it is also the only idea we have so far - 1 service animal doesn't invalidate the whole plan! On the special bite of Pittbulls: "Through selective breeding, pit bulls have developed enormous jaw strength, as well as a ruinous “hold and shake” bite style, designed to inflict the maximum damage possible on their victims. This bite trait delivered winning results in the fighting pit. When the Colorado Supreme Court upheld the Denver pit bull ban in 2005, the high court set aside characteristics that pit bulls displayed when they attack that differ from all other dog breeds. One of these characteristics was their lethal bite:
> ...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I know all about pit bulls. You don't need to educate me. In fact, I'm the one who described their bite as incredibly strong, not on account of locking jaws. That's an old myth, if you want to know. And yes, I know they're tenacious because I know all about pit bulls you see. So your thing about how you described their bite was redundant. 

And if the history and the way they were bred and what they were used for since early times and how things changed through history with them is bull to you then you must not know much about them because that history is a fact. But I have had plenty of experience with many breeds and that includes APBT. And I know what causes and has caused them to attack other dogs and even people. Yes, I even know about break sticks and have shown people how to use them. So, you're barking up the wrong tree. Wasn't that a cute pun?:amen:


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I spoke to a woman doing dog rescue, whose house i was visiting. There were 2 ;pit bulls next door. She described how genuinely sweet they both were. She had interacted with, fed them, walked them, went jogging with them, had them in her car, and took care of them while the owners would go on vacation. She did this for 5 years. When one of the dogs turned 5 years old, he attacked her. Like she was a stranger in his yard. Just not a good situation. After that she could no longer do anything with him. Something just snapped in his mind, and she was no longer an OK person for him. They are unreliable and, I believe, neurotic. Something snaps one day and they are just no longer the good dog they used to be. She also told me that he attacked his owners' grandchild. Luckily grandpa was there to snatch the boy up and get him in the house. The only thing I don't understand is... Why do they still have him at 7 years old?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm a bit worried. Has something else happened? I hope you are all ok


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

jojogal001 said:


> I spoke to a woman doing dog rescue, whose house i was visiting. There were 2 ;pit bulls next door. She described how genuinely sweet they both were. She had interacted with, fed them, walked them, went jogging with them, had them in her car, and took care of them while the owners would go on vacation. She did this for 5 years. When one of the dogs turned 5 years old, he attacked her. Like she was a stranger in his yard. Just not a good situation. After that she could no longer do anything with him. Something just snapped in his mind, and she was no longer an OK person for him. They are unreliable and, I believe, neurotic. Something snaps one day and they are just no longer the good dog they used to be. She also told me that he attacked his owners' grandchild. Luckily grandpa was there to snatch the boy up and get him in the house. The only thing I don't understand is... Why do they still have him at 7 years old?


That's a terrible story Jojo. I know...I've heard such stories. My sister was walking her sheltie and her grand baby in a stroller and a pit came roaring after her. I think she let go of the leash and her dog ran like the dickens to get home. The pit was after him, not her. And thankfully, her dog made it to safety. Here again we have an irresponsible owner letting the dog out unleashed or maybe it escaped. 

Something did happen. The history of them, which interests me, and which I posted a link to.... although it's a dark and cruel history with the original use of them is not the way they seem to be now or since about in the 80's I think. Something happened all right. Some terrible breeding, terrible genetics from that terrible breeding and they are not the same dogs they were when they were an American sweetheart and family dog. Some are still great dogs. But there are a lot of dogs that are poorly bred still since they're so popular or have been. The gene pool may be nearly entirely or even entirely consisting of poor genetics by this time...perhaps from years of breeding poor and incorrect temperaments.

They will have a tendency toward dog aggression (that's normal for them and some other breeds) but the _human_ aggression is the thing that in some cases has gone awry. And in my experience with them, it's not always dog aggression for no reason. What happens a lot of the time is they get in a squabble over a ball/toy and instead of how most dogs handle it, the pit will latch on with that terrier tenacity and not stop. I worked with some and their owners. One woman was having a bad time. Her pit bit one of her 20 year old son's friends more than once. When I went to see this dog, he was extremely friendly and affectionate toward me. Not a sign of any kind of issue. She wanted me to help her teach him also, to not rush out the door when it was opened and a few other things. Then she enlightened me...told me these friends as well as her son teased and tormented the dog, "played" roughly with the dog and he finally got defensive. Well, there you have it. Horrible treatment of this poor animal is a huge part of the problem. I told her to keep those "kids" away from the dog and keep working with the dog herself and forbid any further treatment like this. She had me over a few more times. Then a few weeks or a month later, I asked her how things are going. She euthanized the dog because he bit one of these jerks again. Now this dog never bit without letting go or any tremendous vicious attack. It was one snap and release like a lot of dogs do. 

I've already told the story how I was viciously attacked by a terrier/lab(?) mix...about 20 lbs and I had multiple puncture wounds on my forearms, throat, hands, reconstructive surgery on my chin etc. 

A neighbor of mine just told me of a little girl who was bending over to put some Halloween decoration out on the porch, not over the dog that someone was bringing up onto their porch...a neighbor or someone for trick or treat. That dog literally jumped up and tore her face off. Her lip went flying into the grass and they found it and rushed her to the hospital where it was re-attached. I think she lost part of her face...more than her lip. A *dachshund!!!!* Vicious! Are all dachshunds vicious? Of course not.

I rescued a pit years ago and my GSD at the time and he (both neutered males) got along great, ate and drank out of the same bowl. He was sweet as could be, loved my daughter, who at the time was about 6 or so years old. He was _very_ affectionate and playful. 

My daughter was taking a nap in her room and she woke up, came out into the kitchen, slowly, groggy, quiet, not a wild type of child... and this dog was sleeping in the adjacent but open dining area. Something about her coming into the room suddenly startled him...he didn't expect another person in there or something. And he rose, started snarling/growling/barking. I sharply, rather loudly hollered at him to stop, got a firm hold of his collar, told my daughter to go into her room and close the door. He didn't stop right away. I got very aggressive with my voice with him. He finally backed down and stopped. Then I knew something was off with this dog. 

So, I kept him separate until the owners finally found out that I had him from the notices I put in the paper. He was only with me for I think 2 or 3 days (can't remember clearly) And they came and got him. He had escaped...broken his rope that he was tied to (bad idea to tie a dog) and jumped their fence. It was a dark, rainy night and I found him on a windy road about to be hit by a car so I picked him up, put him in my back yard until I saw the two dogs were okay with each other. At first, I had no idea what kind of dog he was. This was about 33 years ago. The owners were surprised that he got along with my dog. They were thankful and brought me a bottle of wine. 

So since that time decades ago, I have had periodic dealings with them, with mixed results...as far as my professional involvement goes. I have met several besides the ones I worked with that I never saw or heard any problems with. My daughter baby sat her friend's pit bull and she loved that dog. The dog adored her. The only bad thing that happened that hurt her was when he pulled so hard on the leash one time, she got pulled down on the pavement and skinned her knee. (He didn't know how to walk right on a leash.) He stopped when this happened and came, stood over her, licked her face as though apologetically. LOL. From then on, he walked very nicely on the leash. Go figure. Finally, the friend lost this lovely dog to old age. 

So they can't all be painted with the same brush, as other breeds also can not be. I knew a groomer who said the most times anyone in her shop got bitten, it was always a golden retriever. Who would have thunk it?


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