# Am I stupid?



## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

I feel very bad for you and worse for the poor pup. I wouldnt want to give up on either.....I would keep her and work with her. I have had my share of difficult dogs and they are all keepers but its not like I can join dog activities with them or take them to a dog park off leash. They are bonded to me and I dont think they would do well if I gave them to another home and made them start all over. Too traumatizing. If you wanted a poodle...you got a poodle. Not a perfect poodle, but its still a poodle. Enjoy its great parts and try to overlook the not-so-good parts. Every dog has man great qualities...loyalty, love, faithfulness, and some have a damaged soul. Care for that soul and you will be rewarded.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't think it makes you an idiot or stupid, I think this situation is just under socialization which can be reversed with the proper training and the other situation...they're may be something wrong with the dogs temperament genetically =\\

I'm sure you'll eventually be able to do agility  you just have to make sure Lucy knows you're the best person in the world and if running circles around you is what makes you happy she'll do it


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

You've hardly had the puppy a week. Why not give her some time. I don't think her issues are temperament as much as they are socialization.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I don't think you read my original message properly -- I said - we are NOT giving her up. We are working with her. To me that equates to "giving her some time" I hope she will gain enough confidence to do agility. If she doesn't then she will be a house pet.

Do you have any tips for socialization? 

I have heard that if a dog is scared and you talk in a soothing/baby voice -- that just tells the dog that being scared is OK. So, I assume that I take her to places, lots of places, anywhere you can take a dog. And if necessary, I carry her and I talk in a normal conversational voice to her or to my husband or to the people in the store or wherever. I more or less ignore the fact that I know she is scared and I just act like -- this is a place that we go to - and its fine to be here. 

If friends come around - do I just have them "be" here and don't try to make a fuss and try to get her to come to them --- just wait for her to accept them???


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

purley, i posted on another thread that i got my gsd years ago as a 4-5 mo puppy and he wasn't very well socialized. he came home and was in a corner for an entire night. he was so shut down and my then bf, asked me wtf i had done getting a dog like that and i should have gotten a baby.

i worked hard to prove that guy wrong and made dylan dog know i loved him (food, time spent, attention and love and happy voice) and he ended up being awesome. i think you should just make sure you give that puppy extra extra attention right now so she can know you are her new mom. (and make sure the other dogs get their time too so they don't get frustrated.)


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

but i also want to say that it's pretty sucky to get a dog from a breeder who has so many dogs that they can't properly socialize the puppies to other humans which means a 4-5 month old puppy has to be worked with extra hard for a while. 

that's what i did, just like you are doing. take her everywhere as much as possible and give her loads of attention from you and everyone. she'll get it.

oh and lots of yummy treats. heh.


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## CelticKitti (Jul 1, 2010)

I don't think you are an idiot! No dog is perfect, and with time and the proper training she'll come around. I suggest you get a good trainer, who understands poodles, and start working with her immediately. I personally am a huge clicker fan. Recently converting with Kodi, I've seen a HUGE difference in him. He doesn't respond well to corrections as he is a little timid, so I've stopped using most of them.

And remember she is still a puppy it isn't to late for socialization. Just try to make sure that it is ALL positive. If she is worried about people, make sure you always haver very high value treats (cheese, hotdogs) on hand for others to give her. 

Best of Luck to you and Lucy.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

No, I don't think you are stupid - on the contrary, I think you are approaching all this with care, consideration and considerable intelligence. Ziggylu has had her dog for far longer than you have had Lucy, has tried all the usual approaches, and her dog is showing signs of a decidedly odd temperament, and of being a very poor fit for her family. Lucy is showing all the signs of missing out on a lot of early socialisation, but is already warming up to you, and has every chance of growing up into a happy, secure little dog. She may not be the puppy you planned, but there is still plenty of time to help her to grow up to be the sort of dog you wanted.

Personally, I would avoid all aversives for the moment, including lead "pops". I would be upbeat, calm, and ever ready to step between Lucy and anything - including dogs and humans - that makes her nervous. The last thing you want is for her to learn that she needs to growl, snarl and snap to protect her space. Poppy was rather better socialised to people when I got her than Lucy seems to be - she had spent the evenings watching television with her breeders, and it was obviously her favourite part of the day! - but there was an awful lot of the world that was new to her. I took the advice of one of my favourite local dog trainers, and didn't rush her. We did a puppy class, but the first session we spent mostly with her sitting close to me, watching what was going on - I have even sat on the floor with her, or let her sit on my lap if that is what it takes to reassure her. Sitting on a bench somewhere with people walking past a short distance away is a really good way of getting her used to the world - if she is uncomfortable with other people reaching down over her head, ask them to drop treats in front of her while ignoring her. Introduce her to all the well behaved dogs you know - preferably those that have learned to self-handicap around puppies, and to other young dogs of a similar weight, size and play habit. Most of all, take it slowly and keep it positive.

Poppy actually went off exploring on her own yesterday - only 50 yards, and was only out of sight for a few seconds, but that represents a big step forward in self confidence. She now greets people and dogs politely (after thinking about it for a few seconds), and carries her tail up at least as much as down. It has taken nearly a year of small steps, as she flitted in and out of fear periods, but it has not really been hard work - more being careful to consider the world from her perspective.

Oh - and we did a short intro to agility this summer - she was brilliant! We even had a go at a Fun in the Park event, surrounded by strange people and strange dogs, and she ran the course off-leash with tail up and ears flapping - so all things are possible.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Purley said:


> Do you have any tips for socialization?


Give her some time to adjust to you. If she doesn't trust you and look to you then you can't take her places or force socialization because it will only overwhelm her.

Once she thinks you hung the moon. Then take her everywhere. Don't carry her. Don't spend a bunch of time reassuring her. Walk and act like scary things are no big deal. With my dogs, I am confidence personified. I'm not worried so they are not worried.

I like to take my puppies to playing fields on Saturdays and school yards after school. Bring copious amounts of treats. Every child LOVES a puppy. Don't let them mob the puppy. Tell the kids to line up. Every kid gets one pet and gets to feed one treat. Next!



> If friends come around - do I just have them "be" here and don't try to make a fuss and try to get her to come to them --- just wait for her to accept them???


Don't make a fuss. Just let the puppy get used to having folks around.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

The only reason Vicky tried the leash "pops" is because Lucy will not move if you hold the leash! She stands there with her legs planted apart and no amount of coaxing and praising and treats will make her move an inch. I guess I just haven't come across the treat that will get her going.

I am going round to her house next week. She has Shih-tzus and Cotons. Kane is just eight months old and she says he will play with her!


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## debjen (Jan 4, 2010)

I got my 2nd Cavalier when he was 9 months old from the same breeder as my first..she asked me to take him realizing he needed more attention than she could give him with the number of dogs she had..when I first got him a loud voice would send him running to his crate..anything he got he would take under the futon so no one could take it away from him..When I got him he went through the same things any of my other dogs did obedience classes, rally classes and agility classes..it took months to get him to be able to do a stand for exam because if anyone touched (including me) he would collapse to the ground ... now he was friendly and loved being petted and being in laps .. when he started agility I was sure he would never be that good of an agility dog (not that it mattered he was here to stay) because he would do an obstacle and have to come to me for reassurance that he did it right..he recently passed his older brother in agility is in all Excellent level classes .. so there is hope .. 

When socializing let her make the advances to people don't force any interaction but don't baby either..I've seen some people with skittish dogs walk with them singing/.talking silly but you keep moving..don't reinforce the skittish behavior.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

debjen said:


> I've seen some people with skittish dogs walk with them singing/.talking silly but you keep moving..don't reinforce the skittish behavior.


Yep - that was me and Poppy! Lots and lots of songs about Poppy being a good dog, a brave dog, a clever dog - all sung to nursery rhyme tunes. Gets you a bit of a reputation, but does the trick. I tried not to push her - and certainly never to swamp her - but I have also rewarded her for being brave.

The flip side is that her recall has always been brilliant - until the last few weeks! She is now feeling confident enough to very occasionally ignore her Mum ... *Sigh*. Ah well - I always meant to teach her an emergency recall ....


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

PS - high value rewards. If chicken doesn't work, have you tried liver or tuna cake? Mine fall over themselves for liver cake - I put about half a pound of raw liver in my food mixer with one raw egg, whoosh it till smooth, and then add just enough wholemeal flour/oatmeal to make a dropping consistency. Spread on a silicon or nonstick baking sheet, and bake in a moderate oven for 30 - 40 minutes. Cut into tiny pieces when cool, and loose freeze on a tray so that you can take out small quantities. Tuna cake is much the same, but substitute a tin of tuna for the liver.


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## ziggylu (Jun 26, 2010)

I am probably the last person that should respond to this post but...

I don't think you're stupid. I also don't thikn you should draw parallels between your situation and mine. In our case, we are in a constant battle of wills with the dog we have, this does not sound to be the case in yours. 

Lucy just arrived....she'll change so much in the coming weeks. Maybe she wasn't well socialized but that doesn't mean she won't be a nice dog. My first greyhound came to us on her 4th birthday. Up til then, she knew the farm where she was whelped, the training environment where she was taught to race, and the racing kennels she was shuffled between for 2 1/2 years before reitring. She had a submissive and fearful personality by nature....

She arrived to us having no idea what living in a house meant...nor what it meant ot be handled as a pet rather than by grooms. We lived in a two story house in seattle at the time. She preferred to stay upstairs behind the bed if given the choice and was very nervous ot be in our company. 8 months later we moved to Phoenix where we had 5 ceiling fans she was TERRIFIED of - running or not running(we've never understood this fear s she was bred and raced in Arizona actually and the kennels all have fans). She spent a year living under a desk in the only room that didn't have a fan. She was even afraid in the backyard because with our french doors she could see the fans in our kitchen and master bedroom.

It took a LONG time but she got more confident. We found things she lvoed to do(WALKS!) and gave her lots of htat. Lots of TTouch. Obedience work did lots of her confidence and for her bond with us. For many months, I'd have ot work with her in the room with her "security desk" as we called it....eventually we moved to the hallway, then to in front of the door of a room with the fan, and so on. We didn't force her...we worked to find the balance between socializing her and leading her and not pushing ourselves on her too much. We got her another dog for company - the first puppy we raised, another greyhound. It took a year for her to come out from under the desk. 

We had this dog over ten years. She was the BEST dog you could ever hope for. Once she got comfortable and confident, she LOVED people(she was highly food motivated and we made sure anyone she met for years was given a treat to offer her). She would come to us and demand attention and petting with her eyes and body. She followed us everywhere. She left us in June at 14 1/2. I still can't believe the difference between the dog that left us that June morning and the dog that arrived to on a raining March morning in 2000. 

Don't worry too much about your puppy. Show her the lead and her boundaries in a kind, firm (not harsh manner). Give her time to grow and become confident. She's young. She'll learn fast. 

Oh...and my greyhound's name? Lucy


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Thanks so much for that. It was a wonderful story.

I have one.

Many years ago now, we had friends with two grown daughters. Then one day, the younger one committed suicide. We were all astounded because she seemed like such a fun loving girl. Then, their other daughter, who had had multiple heart surgeries, had a stroke and died. They lost both their daughters in six weeks. 

We thought our friend, the mother in particular, was never going to get over this. She bought the girls' furniture home and had it stored, along with the contents of the drawers etc. in their basement.

Then, I can't remember how much later, she went to the Humane Society to adopt a dog. She found one that was a poodle, or a maybe a poodle cross, but the Humane Society people said that she wasn't adoptable. She was a fear biter and they wouldn't allow our friend to adopt the dog. But she was adamant. That was the dog she wanted. So in the end they let her take the dog home. She called the dog Kamy (to rhyme with Tammy).

That dog went everywhere with them. About 15 years ago they sold their house and most of their possessions. They bought a boat on the east coast of the States and lived in the Caribbean for 10 years. They called the boat "Kamytoo". That dog travelled with them on the boat all that time. About three years ago they sold the boat, moved to Lake Chapala in Mexico and there is Kamy, still healthy and still their best friend. She is a loving friendly dog and far from being a fear biter - has never bitten anyone.

I know she won't mind my telling you this story.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Purley, you seem like the kind of person who overanalyzes a bit and wants to be able to control the situation at hand. I hope you don't mind me saying that because I am that way too and I do understand...

Here's the thing. I honestly think this dog will be fine. She's undersocialized, but that's not the end of the world. She's still young at five months. Give her TIME. Lots of it. Weeks of time. Give her loving touch, talk, and treats. Give her time to get to know you and your home and your family and dogs. 

When you go out, show her she has nothing to fear because you are not afraid. Don't baby talk her or lean over and fret with her when she seems scared. Just say, "It's OK" and stand tall and calm. Let her observe the scary thing from a distance. Stand there for five minutes if you need to. Or, if you were walking, just continue on your way like "Ho hum, no big deal." 

Don't carry her everywhere. Your trainer sounds nice but I think that's very bad advice. That is a recipe for adding to her fear and possibly creating a land-shark fear biter. She needs to learn to deal with things with all four paws on the floor. Treat her like a big dog. Would you pick up a 60 pound dog if he was scared? No. 

Take a deep breath. Don't worry so much about the future. It's been like, four days! You are so freaked by what "might" happen with this dog in the future that you are not focused on her in the present. She is going to sense your fear and frustration and that will only feed her fear and uncertainty. 

Get to know her. (Do you know her?) Enjoy her. Love her. Connect with her. Be patient with her. Try to understand where she is coming from. Just relax a bit.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Chiming in to agree with all the advice above. And may I say, Ziggylu, your story about your greyhound, and Purley, your story about your friends losing both their daughters, both were so inspiring and caring. It is a wonderful thing how resilient our dogs can be when we love them, and how resilient WE can be when our dogs love us.

Purley, your Lucy sounds a bit like my Casey was. I think he was under-socialized as well. When we went to his first puppy-k class (it started about 10 days after we got him), he was so terrified he peed all over the floor when he just walked in the door! This was in a big building, almost like a warehouse, with the store area up-front and the training classes in a room towards the back. He was PETRIFIED while walking down the aisles. He was PETRIFIED in his first class, and pressed his little shivering, quaking body against me.

Now this was the dog the breeder told me was "so confident" and "first out of the whelping box!" I had told her I wanted a nicely confident dog.

You can imagine how I felt with my beautiful but quaking little bundle of joy next to me. Why did she sell me this quivering bundle of nerves when I wanted a self-confident go-getter?

Every week, he got better and better. Now the good thing was that the breeder was right about his physical confidence. He had no problem doing the class exercises. He learned to walk nicely on lead, do a sit in a heartbeat, lie down, everything, very quickly.

It was only people and other dogs he was scared of. hwell:

By the time he finished Puppy-K class, he was clearly the best dog in the class for his obedience. He was remarkably easy to handle and fast in his responses.

So we went on with Obedience 1 and Agility for the Fun of it, and we kept socializing him all the time, taking him to sidewalk cafes and walking around city streets and playing with the neighbor's dogs and kids, all sorts of things.

Today, he is on the verge of his 2nd birthday, and you just couldn't ask for a sweeter dog. He will never be the sort of dog to jump all over people - a good thing, in my opinion. He will wait for attention. He will allow strangers to pet him, although he still does not care for hands coming over the head, vs. hands extended for him to sniff first.

And you should see him in his agility classes. Wow! No shortage of confidence there, with the exception of the teeter, and we finally got him to be happy with that, even, after several weeks' work on a buja board.

So please, have every expectation that your Lucy will settle in fine, and certainly keep your dream of agility alive. She can get started on flatwork right now, and learning to "touch" your hand and follow your hand for direction. 

It's a matter of balance, teaching her new things to keep her mind stimulated and happy, and gently leading - not forcing her! - out of her comfort zone to learn the world is an ok place.

I'm looking forward to hearing all the good things you will be writing about her a month, six months, a year from now. Bet you will surprise yourself.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

She's just a bit overwhelmed and not confident yet. She hasn't been out and about lots in her life- so this is new for her. do not stress over it. 

As to the walking on leash- Cbrand did a good pos ton another thread- and i agree with her 100% i leash- i go to the sidewalk and i walk- when the dog walks at all with me it is the best thing they have ever done in their world we all look like idiots we're making such a fuss- but i don't coax- i don't do anything except walk on... and it works. Usually 1-2 sessions and you have a dog who will walk on the leash. Note dont' do it on grass- grass is way to comfortable and they will just lay down and let ya drag em... sidewalk- not quite so comfy! 

Give yourself more then 4 days. You have oodles of time. she'll take a week or so to settle in.


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

I don't think you're crazy, you just have an under-socialized puppy. It is just going to take time and effort to get her to trust you and then work on socialization.
I would avoid aversives totally. You don't want to give her a reason to fear you. Also, don't shake your other dogs when they growl. The growl is one of the ONLY verbal warning signals dogs have to communicate (they can't say go away or shut up or leave me alone). If you train your dogs that growling is bad, they will go straight to physical corrections (snaps, bites, etc).


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## debjen (Jan 4, 2010)

One thing I forgot to mention was that doing agility with Cedar built his confidence more than anything I did with him...he loves agility


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Very true.

Also I think training anything at all helps with confidence. First thing I trained Casey to do was sit, and second thing was wait/stay. This was a matter of safety: I never, ever want my dogs going down the stairs with me, inside or outside, due to possibility of tripping over them. So I trained him to wait at top of stairs until he was called.

Just being able to tell him "sit" when he got nervous seemed to help him. It's like his doggy mind was going "what do I do? what do I do??" and when I said "sit," you could almost see the sigh - "ah, ok, this tall person here knows what I'm supposed to do, so I'm ok."

It's amazing how just the smallest things will add up and cumulatively build up a dog's confidence level.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Beach girl said:


> Just being able to tell him "sit" when he got nervous seemed to help him. It's like his doggy mind was going "what do I do? what do I do??" and when I said "sit," you could almost see the sigh - "ah, ok, this tall person here knows what I'm supposed to do, so I'm ok."


So true, and what a great description!

I remember when Jager was younger and we were on a walk and a big garbage truck drove by. Jager jumped a little bit, startled, then immediately looked up at me. I said nothing and did nothing, just looked at the truck and stood still. Jager looked at me, looked at the truck, looked at me, looked back at the truck, then just started acting bouncy and happy like he normally does. It was like he thought "OK, mom's not worried about that huge loud thing, so I guess I don't need to be worried." That was the moment I realized he really looks to me for leadership and to see how I react to things. To this day, if he sees something new, the first thing he does is look at me. If I'm OK, he's OK. It's really an amazing thing.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Purley:
Your girl's behavior sound very normal to me considering you purchased her at a later puppy age and she was without a doubt undersocialized by her "busy" breeder.

Actually it is great that this breeder let you have this puppy at the time she did and not later.
Your girl exhibits normal behavior for a puppy that was exposed to literally "nothing" from a young age.

Your situation is very different from Zigyllu's.

You do not have to strugle on a daily basis with an aggresive unpredictable puppy as Cosmo was/is and one who poses a danger not only to Zigyllu's dog, but also to her and her family.. You never once mentioned that your girl growled or snapped at you however Cosmo does growl & snaps at the hand that feeds him and at the greyhound (for no apparent reason) and the groomer So, no you cant put yourself in the same situation as Zigyllu.

Patience on your part and avoiding her behavior and occupying her brain with other things will eventually turn her around. Her behavior has nothing to do with her core temeprament.. It has to do with lack of socialization and exposure to different stimuli and situations.

This pup is the perfect example why it is SO important for breeders to properly raise and socialize their litters which is of paramount importance to their growth and emotional development.

If a breeder is too busy or too occupied to the point that they can not properly socialize their puppies than maybe they should re think breeding...
Most of our pups end up in pet homes (not show homes) as such they should be fully socialized and exposed prior to being sold, which will make the relationship between owner and puppy so much more enjoyable.

Slowly start her socialization and you will reap the rewards. I think this puppy has the potential to be a great companion but you will unfortunately have to do the work with her which her breeder neglected to do due to lack of time.
Good luck with her.. she sounds like a very good puppy to me.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Me too.

She did mention growling and snapping, in her very first post.


> Lucy was petrified. She growled the whole time and snapped at a Bichon that bounced over to where we were sitting


But that sounds like fear growling and snapping, not quite the same thing as Ziggylu's dog was doing. Lucy, I'm guessing, will be absolutely fine with further socialization and exposure to other dogs and people.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Purley said:


> So -- am I an idiot for wanting to work with a dog like this? Any tips for socializing her?



I sure hope not, but patience in this situation is key. You are a thinker it seems and over thinking a bit too soon. You sound like a great owner and knowlegable, just step back, allow her to settle in and come to you. She will. 

I would take the socialization slow and more at her pace for a bit so you can observe her reactions. She seems to be a bit afraid (LOS), and getting used to her immmediate surroundings is most important now.

Good luck


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Purley:

I believe the only reason why your girl was so overwhelmed and fearfull, snappy and growly at obedience is because she has never seen other breeds but her own. Usually a puppy is sold at 8-10 weeks old ,and they continue with their socialization as soon as their vaccination schedule permits, that is around the 3 months period.

This puppy will be very easy for you to work with because you have already established what she is worried about and she is also showing you signs of what she likes and does not like which will make it easy for you to work to correct.

Zigyloo's dog has NO reason to act the way he does and display his aggression, bullying and intimidating actions for no reason. He is not presented with any stressful situations which will render him fearful like Lucy is, on the contrary the dog looks for trouble wherever he can and challenges authority and bites the hand that feeds him, and we are not talking her about snapping and growling at unfamiliar dogs in obedience school but doing that toward his owner her family and also the greyhoud and the groomer.

Your girl is a good puppy and she will get better with each day if you know how to turn her around.. and find what makes and doesnt make her tik.

Good luck, it will be easy of this I am sure.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Well, it seems that Melodie went whining to the breeder about our "rudeness" last night. She emailed me. She knows Vicky. Vicky calls a spade a spade. She says she has her opinion and she is entitled to it and if people don't like that too bad. Vicky told Melodie that in her opinion Lucy hadn't been properly socialized and that was her opinion. Melodie said that Miniature Poodles do not warm up to everybody like a Shih-tzu. Vicky said that is bull**** - all puppies, no matter the breed, should be friendly with everyone.

I got an email from the breeder. Apparently its probably my fault. She says Lucy got her eye infection perhaps from pine trees in my yard!! However, my granddaughter says that is crap because both she and her two friends, noticed the goop in Lucy's eyes when the woman dropped her off, but they didn't say anything because they thought it was rude. 

She is worried that Tyson doesn't like her. Sure, Tyson doesn't like her. Tyson doesn't really like any dogs except Sam. But you can tell it doesn't bother her. She tries to be friends and Tyson turns his back on her. Too bad - so sad! Go be friends with Sam. Even Cooper didn't bother her. He was over here on Tuesday and he bounded downstairs and stuck his face in her face and she did not growl at him. She was sitting on my husband's lap and in no danger from Cooper. Besides which Cooper loves all dogs. The only danger with Cooper is that he would bowl her over. But not when she is sitting on my husband's lap!!

And, part of the problem, according to her, is that she was called Velvet since she was born and I changed her name to Lucy, and that is adding to the problems. Give me a break! I didn't see anywhere in the contract that I couldn't change her name! My husband tried calling her Velvet and she didn't come to that either!! Who cares? Sam is seven years old. Quite frequently I call "Sam, Sam" and he doesn't come, however, "Want a cookie" works every single time!!

Anyway, she said she is worried about the dog and she wants to come and get her and give me my money back. 

We like the dog. She is fine here. She is most relaxed running around outside. But even in the house, she is fine. She learned to go up and down the stairs. She learned to jump to sit on the armchair. She hasn't messed in the house. My dogs don't scare her. Tyson let her eat his food the other day!

However, she is not really, really bouncy and outgoing - in the house, but she has only been here four days. And anyway, that might be a distinct advantage!!

I am not going to bother to respond. I said to my husband that part of the problem is that I don't like the woman. I wrote her several emails asking for photos of the puppy and got no reply. When I phoned her after getting no reply to my emails -- she said the puppy needed grooming, she didn't have batteries for her camera, she had bought batteries but had to put the batteries in her camera. I never did get a photo as I believe I mentioned on the board. 

We will see how it goes in the next few weeks. Unfortunately, one of the things she loves is gardening with my husband, and he has to go in for major surgery on Monday and will be in the hospital for 8 days. Its scheduled surgery but its a shame that I will have to be running back and forth to the hospital. But it can't be helped.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Oh brother. What business was it of Melodie's to go running to the breeder?

Vicky is full of it when she says "all puppies should be friendly with everyone." Not true. It is not at all unusual for Min. Poodles to be reserved with strangers. Some are more affectionate, some are more reserved. As long as we're not talking about extremely fearful shyness and/or fear-aggression, either one is fine. 

She is right though about Lucy not having been properly socialized, but since you're working on that, that's water under the bridge at this point. 

It's a pity your granddaughter didn't say anything about the yellow goop when the breeder brought the puppy over, but again, water under the bridge. I'm sure your vet could make a statement that the eye infection didn't happen overnight and must have been present when you received the puppy.

You are absolutely right about changing her name. A puppy, or even an adult dog, can learn a new name. Who knows what my Pippin's name used to be? He was a rescue around 6 years old when we got him. He learned his new name in 2 days, no problem.

Congrats to Lucy for her fast learning, about going up the stairs and jumping up to the armchair (don't let her jump down at this age, might hurt her growing bones), and especially for not messing in the house!! 

This breeder really should reimburse you for the medical costs. Sounds like that's not likely to happen, eh? Maybe the contract has a clause in it about a health guarantee? Usually a new puppy has a health guarantee of a few days at least regarding illnesses, and a longer period of time for congenital defects (that might not show up right away).

I can't imagine that the breeder would have the right to unilaterally decide to take the dog back, but read the contract and see what it says. 

Good luck. Sounds like she is not a very pleasant woman to work with. It's a pity to have a breeder like that, because ideally, the breeder should be someone you can go to with questions any time, as long as you have the puppy. Looks like you'll just have to use the good folks on this forum instead! ;-)


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

This breeder really should reimburse you for the medical costs. Sounds like that's not likely to happen, eh? Maybe the contract has a clause in it about a health guarantee? Usually a new puppy has a health guarantee of a few days at least regarding illnesses, and a longer period of time for congenital defects (that might not show up right away).

I can't imagine that the breeder would have the right to unilaterally decide to take the dog back, but read the contract and see what it says. 

Good luck. Sounds like she is not a very pleasant woman to work with. It's a pity to have a breeder like that, because ideally, the breeder should be someone you can go to with questions any time, as long as you have the puppy. Looks like you'll just have to use the good folks on this forum instead! ;-)[/QUOTE]


Sorry this breeder does not seem like a person I would seek advice from or keep in contact in future.

1. This breeder has no leg to stand on , as you have proven to do all the right things with this puppy and she cant just take her back and reimburse you . If she presists in telling you this.... just let her know that you are now dealing with a temperament that is due to the lack of socialization of her puppies and nothing else. I am sure she will not appreciate hearing this one bit, but at times is a necessary thing to say in order to give her a wake up call.

IF she can prove you are abusing Lucy, do not fulfill your contractual obligations etc.. then yes, she can take her back but will have to go through legal channels. I believe she is bullying you trying to make you believe you are wrong and she is right. Do NOT buy into this, I have heard of breeders like her before and how they use intimidating tactics with clients.

2. You have the right to change your dog's name and this should never produce anxiety in the dog, goodness I change my puppy's name several times before permanently calling him something or another and I never seen a bad temperament or stress as a result, again a ludicrous statement made by a breeder who feels she is dealing with an uninformed client.

3. The breeder SHOULD definitely reimburse you for the vet care and medications purchased by you to clear what the puppy was already affected with when it came to you from the breeder.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yes, I am sure you are more knowledgeable. Vicky is a strong personality. I like it because you sure know where you stand with her. If she has something to say, she says it. 

Are you sure about Poodles being reserved? What about two month old puppies -- all the puppies I have seen have been very friendly at that age. Of course, Lucy isn't that age. 

I tried walking on the leash - her and Sam and it worked just fine. She kept up and I kept going. She lagged back a couple of times but I just kept on trucking. I did it in the back garden -- around the paths - we have a big yard. I have to figure a way to make a tighter hole in her collar before we go out on the street. My husband made a hole in one other collar, he poked something through a melted it and it was all black and ugly and hard and spiky. Lucy has a pink collar and I don't want it ruined and its a bit too big for her. Maybe I can poke a darning needle through it. I don't want it slipping over her head out on the street.


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

Read your contract to make sure there isn't a clause in it that she can take the dog back under any circumstances.
I would also find another trainer since that one obviously isn't trustworthy.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

> Of course, Lucy isn't that age.


Exactly. She is going through that perfectly normal secondary fear period that hits right around 4 to 5 months. She might have been cuddlier and more affectionate at 10 weeks, or might not. She certainly sounds like she is within normal range to me. She is adjusting to you all very quickly.

I got my first poodle from a pet store (yes, it was a long time ago and I didn't know what I was doing). Anyway, he was 12 weeks old, very friendly, loved everyone. He got his name "Bounder" because he jumped on everyone, all his life, because he just couldn't wait to tell everyone how much he loved them. He was an exuberant little sweetheart from day one.

Pippin - got at 6 years old. Cautiously friendly. Will not jump on people, but likes to be petted. He bonded to us very quickly.

Casey - got at 4 1/2 months old. Extremely shy of people at first. Bonded to us pretty quickly, but not a cuddle-bug. Took him a while to warm up. He will now cautiously reach out his nose to approach new people, but doesn't like it when they move too quickly toward him. 

I would consider all three of these poodles "normal," just at different places on the curve.

The poodle breed standard says something like "The poodle has an innate dignity peculiar to himself." There are lots of references to them being sometimes reserved with strangers.

Re the collar - maybe you can try a halter-type leash? Casey was (still is, really) a skinny little pup, and he got so terrified at the vet's at his first visit that he pulled his head right out of the collar, which was set at the tightest setting! He ran down the hallway, which thankfully did not have any doors open to the outside, so we caught him right away. I would have been terrified if that had happened on the street, as he certainly didn't know "come" at that point. This was just a few days after we got him.

It's really, really important that you have something on that fits Lucy without any question in your mind if you are walking her near a street. A halter might be more secure.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yes, I have a harness that fits Sam. I am sure it will go small enough for her.

I don't know who drew her contract. Certainly no lawyer that I ever worked for. The two pages are in different fonts for starters. It says if I am unable to keep her I have to give her back or get her to find a suitable home. 

I will have to think about the new trainer suggestion. I guess I am cheap but because I belong to the kennel club, I get my classes half price and that friend of the breeder's is teaching all the puppy classes right now. I can probably bite the bullet and go elsewhere for the puppy class though even though it will cost me more.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Does your city or county have any sort of recreational facility? Where I live there is an excellent parks and recreation dep't, and they have all sorts of dog classes. That is the only place where I have taken my guys. Cost is very reasonable.

Some of the instructors I have liked better than others, but none of them has really been bad. 

It just seems such a violation of confidence for this instructor to go back to the breeder like that and stir up trouble.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

She just started instructing. She apprenticed under Vicky so she knows what she is like. Yes, if she didn't like what was said - going and tittle tattling like a four year old is -- well like a four year old!!


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

Purley, my puppy was just like yours so take heart. The only difference is that I got her at 10 weeks but it took several months before i saw giant leaps and her starting to be part of our family. Now-she is 14 months old and the biggest baby you could imagine You would never have guessed this had you seen her at 3, 4, or even 5 months old. I think sometimes poodles are too intelligent for their own good and bond so closely to their families that it can take a long time to let someone else in. I completely agree with whitepoodles and beach that this girl will turn around and in a few months you won't know how you lived without her. 

The breeder....hmph!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

it just seems such a violation of confidence for this instructor to go back to the breeder like that and stir up trouble.[/QUOTE]


I totally agree with this statement.

What your trainer does with you is and should be confidential and not reported back to the breeder UNLESS you are abusing the dog which you are NOT..... far from it.

She had no business reporting back to her as what she has reported had nothing whatsoever to do with your ability to care for the dog or instruct her properly.

Maybe she should mention to the breeder to socialize her puppies a bit more before selling them to her clients. Thid would be warranted advice this trainer can give the breeder. As for her tell telling on you is not only wrong but uncalled for and without any justified reason.

I would look elsewhere for a trainer, one that exhibits professionalism.


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## vtomblin (Jul 18, 2010)

If you do want to find another trainer I find canuckdogs.com good for all sorts of info and contacts. Also if it is just a puppy class petsmart is affordable and they have a decent program to train the trainers. You must have one or more in Regina. Hope it all works out for you. Good luck!


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Every day she is getting more relaxed around here. This morning she was racing around the trees in my yard and then, of course, she decided to poop in the most inaccessible place in a corner behind the garden cart!!! Couldn't do it in the middle of the lawn! 

We packed up the trampoline yesterday because my husband goes for surgery on Monday and he won't be able to do it afterwards. When the dogs poop under there I have to crawl on my hands and knees to pick it up!!

Anyone around here want to buy a professional grade 14 foot trampoline?? My granddaughter and her boyfriend asked me not to sell it but they both got part time jobs and while they have used the pool lots, I've only seen them on the trampoline once - so its going.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

> Every day she is getting more relaxed around here


Not that I am the type to say "told ya so," but.... 

Here's a happy cheer for you and your girl: :cheer2:


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yes. I haven't replied to that woman's email. She is a dingbat - a total flake!!

I decided to copy her email for future reference and put in my responses.

One of the things she said was that I had told her that the puppy wasn't eating properly - so "Perhaps that was why the vet said she was underweight. If she has problems eating, that is a sign that she is not a good fit for you".

For starters - the twit didn't bring the puppy here until 10am on Monday, so presumably she at something at her place before they left. 

For another - I told her that the puppy ate supper on Monday and on Tuesday - so she actually did eat something those two days. And besides which I think I already said to her that it was normal for a puppy not to be eating normally when it got to a new home.

And for a third - SHE said - "Oh yes I always had trouble putting weight on that little girl. She was so active."

So now the fact that she is underweight is MY fault????????

Oh -- go suck eggs you stupid woman!!!


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Here she is -- absolutely terrified!!!!!!!! This is just after I had beaten her up and starved her of food!!!!!!!!!!

She is sleeping on the rug under my desk! I find the sleeping a great improvement to dragging my foot pedal around by the cord - which is what she normally does!

I wonder why dogs are so contrary? I put my t-shirt on the lid of the laundry basket. She kept dragging it on the floor. So I got an old duster out and put it on the lid of the laundry basket - but she wasn't interested in dragging the duster on the floor!! However, I guess it wasn't MY duster - didn't smell like a worn t-shirt!

I guess its like a toddler - plays with your cell phone so you give the kid an old one -- but that is not nearly so interesting as a REAL phone!!


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I think she is making rapid progress to becoming "your dog," Purley.


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## 1Jurisdiva (May 4, 2010)

Yay! I am so happy to hear this! I really did think it was just a matter of time. We have rescued older dogs, and while some take longer than others, they always became "our dogs".


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

If anyone has problems putting or keeping weight on their dog the best solution is called SATIN BALLS.
Google it and you will find the recipe. It is awsome and I give this to my dogs on a daily basis even though I do not want to fatten or keep weight on them since they are in optimal weight I still give them one 1/4 pound ball every eve before bedtime. They LOVE it and it is healthy and nutritional for them.
BUT.. do not give these to a dog who is overweight.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yeah!! I have a "satin balls" post going. I am just about to go up and make them. Of course, we had to go to several stores because my husband was with me. He had a butcher shop and he made a fuss about paying $6 something a kilo for regular ground beef, so we had to go to Superstore where it was $2 a k. cheaper. I would just have paid whatever it was in the first store!

We left all three dogs loose in the house. We were gone a couple of hours. Everyone was still alive. Someone (mentioning no names) was sitting on my pants at the top of the stairs. She must have climbed on the laundry basket and then onto the dresser because they were on my dresser.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Purley said:


> Yeah!! I have a "satin balls" post going. I am just about to go up and make them. Of course, we had to go to several stores because my husband was with me. He had a butcher shop and he made a fuss about paying $6 something a kilo for regular ground beef, so we had to go to Superstore where it was $2 a k. cheaper. I would just have paid whatever it was in the first store!
> 
> We left all three dogs loose in the house. We were gone a couple of hours. Everyone was still alive. Someone (mentioning no names) was sitting on my pants at the top of the stairs. She must have climbed on the laundry basket and then onto the dresser because they were on my dresser.


 She missed you!!!!!!!!! That's all....!!


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Either she is a good climber - or else she is finding a ladder somewhere!! She got my socks on the laundry basket. So I put them on the dresser. She must climb on the laundry basket to get them. 

Because our back gate never latched properly, I had a kind of "airlock" installed - a section of chain link with a gate. My husband came in - he said she was standing the other side of the chain link gate!! She is so skinny she had squeezed between the post and the wooden fence. So now he has had to block the space off.

Its the little tiny gap to the left of that metal post, right beside the wooden fence!


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Yikes!! They will find their way into the smallest of spaces, sometimes.

You are a brave woman to leave all the dogs loose in the house! I never left my puppies lose when I was gone until they were close to a year old.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Oh. That never occurred to me. I suppose she could get up to all kinds of mischief, but as she doesn't when we are home, I assumed she wouldn't suddenly go nuts and start destroying everything. And she didn't. I have her in a crate at night in the bedroom. I guess I will continue to take the chance and if she gets into something, then she will be crated while we are out. 

She couldn't have got out of the yard because the wooden gate was locked. Its just that the dogs aren't allowed the other side of the chain link gate -- between the two gates - just in case.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

tee hee... she's settling right in!


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I would guess that pretty soon she's going to start getting her adult teeth, if that hasn't started already, which means she will be looking for things to chew on. Plus, is she housebroken already?

I tend to worry about stuff. With good reason - Casey chewed up not one, but TWO, pairs of my glasses when he was teething and I didn't realize what he was getting up to! Good thing I still had one more pair. And he has now trained me to put them in a case in my drawer every night - no more leaving them loose! Even though his teething days are far behind him now, of course.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I always feel it is a good sign when children - and pups - feel secure enough to push the boundaries a little (not too much, of course!). Have you had her a full week yet? It sounds as if she is finding her feet fast!


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

No. She has been here since last Monday morning. Yes, she is housetrained. I am not sure if she just did that by herself or not because, as I have said, the breeder doesn't seem to have worked with her much, and she actually admitted as much the day she dropped her off. She said she had been too busy and she was away on holidays as well.

I didn't respond to her email, with all those false accusations and asking me when she could come and pick Lucy up. That was Thursday morning. I keep have these paranoid ideas that she will show up when I am out and demand to take her. My husband will stand his ground with me in an argument, but he tends to be a real wimp with other people. I can see him handing her over.

I guess the more time that goes by, the less likelihood there is of that, and I do have a signed contract which I will scan so I have a copy on my computer.

Maybe she is at Yorkton Dog Show, but if she is she hasn't won anything.

A Shih-tzu went reserve Best in Show yesterday!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Five days - and housetrained already! She must be one smart little cookie. Is she relaxing around you and your husband yet?


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

fjm;114284 said:


> Five days - and housetrained already! She must be one smart little cookie.
> 
> 
> FJM:
> ...


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yes. She "likes" to hold it. I took her out the other day and she peed for about a minute!!!

I would say she is relaxed. She steals my clothes all the time off the dresser. I thought she was climbing on the laundry basket, so I moved the laundry basket, but I think I forget how long her legs are compared to Shih-tzu legs and I think she is just reaching up and grabbing whatever is handy!

I am used to Shih-tzu mouths which aren't very big, so they tend not to be interested in putting things in their mouths. She is for ever dragging stuff around - my bra, the dog blankets on the floor. I told her "no" just now because she was putting her mouth on the strap of my sandal that I was just going to put my foot into -- so she went and got a stuffed toy out of her crate -- we'll show you -- I can't have the sandal but I don't care -- I will have this toy instead!!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Purley said:


> Yes. She "likes" to hold it. I took her out the other day and she peed for about a minute!!!
> 
> I would say she is relaxed. She steals my clothes all the time off the dresser. I thought she was climbing on the laundry basket, so I moved the laundry basket, but I think I forget how long her legs are compared to Shih-tzu legs and I think she is just reaching up and grabbing whatever is handy!
> 
> I am used to Shih-tzu mouths which aren't very big, so they tend not to be interested in putting things in their mouths. She is for ever dragging stuff around - my bra, the dog blankets on the floor. I told her "no" just now because she was putting her mouth on the strap of my sandal that I was just going to put my foot into -- so she went and got a stuffed toy out of her crate -- we'll show you -- I can't have the sandal but I don't care -- I will have this toy instead!!


She sounds exactly like every poodle puppy I have had! Lucy sounds like she has just the cutest little personality!!! I want to give her a big smooch!


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yes. I think my reservations in the beginning were due to the fact that I have had many dogs, but I always got them at 8-10 weeks old when they were bouncy little balls of fluff with no inhibitions whatsoever.

I have a feeling that even Shih-tzus if you got them at five months of age, they would be a bit confused and more reserved.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Purley:
This pup sounds WONDERFUL to me.. All her behaviors are very much puppy behaviors and I dont see any wrong move on her part. 
I believe that with encouragement patience and going at HER pace you will find eventually she will turn into your dream girl.

This puppy has a wonderful "core" temperament as such it is so easy to work with such sound temperament. Inspite of her exhibiting fear, apprehension, bewilderment it is strictly because she lacked socialization by the breeder but in no way is it because of her "core" temperament. 
My feeling is that this puppy will turn out to be a fantastic companion for you and your family, and I cant stressed how sad I feel for zigyllu that she can not enjoy the same puppy mischief behaviors you do with Lucy, but am sure one day and soon that she will be able to have a wonderful puppy like you do.
Appreciate the puppyhood days, they dont come back...


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

[
I have a feeling that even Shih-tzus if you got them at five months of age, they would be a bit confused and more reserved.[/QUOTE]

This depends entirely on the breeder and how much work they are willing to invest in socializing puppies they either can not sell at 9 week old or ones they are running on to see if they are show or pet quality.


They should integrate puppies they can not sell or ones that they are running on the same way they integrate their live in dogs, no difference. This way when a mature puppy is sold to a pet home, they are happy bouncy and sure of themselves with no inhibitions, unless their core temperament is as such that they naturally were born with some issues.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Ah, the retriever instinct kicking in! Just wait until she feels the need to greet every visitor to the house with a lovely "present", and the very best ones, of course, are your used underwear ...


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## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

I had to keep one of my puppies till 12 weeks and all the others were sold around 8 weeks. That singleton got to sleep in the beds with us, and go on car rides and she ate with the bigger dogs. We socialized her in with our pack and when the weather got cool enough, she was shipped to California


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

fjm said:


> Ah, the retriever instinct kicking in! Just wait until she feels the need to greet every visitor to the house with a lovely "present", and the very best ones, of course, are your used underwear ...



FJM;
You are trully a gas... ROFLMAO this is a great one.

And.. I have to say that it did happen to me once with my bra (thank god it was clean one) and the other time with a pair of underwear
I was SOOOOO embarrased, LOLOL Oh and the underwear part, was on my dad's birthday... the rest you can imagine...


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Poppy hasn't cottoned on to this one yet - my sister's black spoo used to do it regularly ... raiding the washing basket on her way to the door!


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Definitely this pup sounds great! I LOVE that she dropped your sandal and went straight to her toy box to get an appropriate toy. She is thinking things through already.

Great retrieving instinct. You will have so much fun with her as she matures throwing balls, frisbees, whatever she can handle. 

And yeah, poodles will definitely teach you to keep your laundry in a hamper! Open laundry baskets are an invitation to trouble... in a very cute way, of course.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

My granddaughter came round again this morning. Lucy was scared of her. When I say "scared" I mean when Alyssa called her, she ran away. The same thing happened outside - she ran away. Alyssa wasn't happy. She said Lucy doesn't like her! I said just sit down and let her come and see you. I gave Alyssa a satin ball and she broke bits off for Lucy. At first I had to make Lucy go to her - I picked her up and showed her the food in Alyssa's hand - because she hadn't seen the satin ball. She took it out of Alyssa's hand. She was still hesitant - she would take the food but not come back! Then we went shopping and when we got back she came up and let Alyssa pick her up. She wasn't jumping on her like she does us. But she did go to her.

We have company coming this afternoon. I am going to tell them to ignore her. Don't try calling her. Just wait and see what happens. I can give them a satin ball, but she probably still won't be totally enthralled with them.

I know that Lucy hasn't been properly socialized. What would a well socialized five month old puppy do? What kind of behaviour would a socialized puppy show in front of total strangers in her own home! Would she go to a stranger in her home when they called to her? I don't think a well socialized puppy would run away would she? Lucy has seen Alyssa before. Alyssa was here when Lucy got dropped off and she has been here at least twice since.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I think she is doing absolutely fine. Her behavior with Alyssa is totally consistent with the 5-month old fear period. She ran - ok, that's normal. Then when Alyssa got down to her height and offered food, she took it. And I like that you all went away and then came back, and then Lucy came up and allowed A. to pick her up. That shows she was internalizing the idea "Aha, this human is OK. Maybe it's one of the pack."

A lot of dogs will not go to a stranger when called. That's fine by me, actually. I don't want my dogs running off with just anybody.

Your advice to your guests is good, to just have them ignore her and see what happens. If she starts being a bit skittish and then gradually approaches them, that's fine. Well within normal behavior parameters.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

We have company coming this afternoon. I am going to tell them to ignore her. Don't try calling her. Just wait and see what happens. I can give them a satin ball, but she probably still won't be totally enthralled with them.

Purley : Your pup exhibits text book temperament of a puppy that was not at all socialized with other people other than the breeder or maybe people close to her, but she definitely acts as thought she was pretty much sheltered. Given the older puppy age she was shipped to you, naturally she missed a great deal on proper socialization that otherwise would of had to been done by her breeder which it was not (unfortunately)

So my opinion would be for you to let her be and give her the space to start coming to you on her own terms.. This does not mean that you are going to ignore her or not demand that she adhere to house rules you set for her , what it means is dont overly crowd her or expect her to be what she can not (not what she does not ) want to be right now. She needs to be more sure of herself so just take it easy with her and just let her come to you.

When your guests arrive they should ignore her not go directly to her and hover over her and try to catch or pet her.. this will frighten her as I am sure she was not exposed to these type of (normal) displays.

Ask your guests to act as if there is no dog in the house. Make sure every guest has a yummy small (not big) treat in their hands. Give it to them at the door and make sure to tell them to ignore and not call the pup to them. Once they are seated down on your sofas or wherever with Lucy in the room they and you should continue ignoring her.. then you can say in a soft voice COOKIE and see if she comes to you.. Then I would suggest that one guest show her the cookie (without getting up to go toward her) if she comes very hesitantly but stops in her tracks in mid way, then the person should just throw the cookie on the ground toward her and hopefully she will creap up to get it.

The key I believe is to not make a fuss over her as this tends to intimidate her.

I know Lucy hasn't been properly socialized. What would a well socialized five month old puppy do? What kind of behaviour would a socialized puppy show in front of total strangers in her own home! Would she go to a stranger in her home when they called to her? I don't think a well socialized puppy would run away would she? Lucy has seen Alyssa before. Alyssa was here when Lucy got dropped off and she has been here at least twice since.[/QUOTE]

A very well socialized 5 mos. old who had a good beginning in life at h/her breeder and later on post sale the owner continued the socialization process in a positive manner and consistently , is a puppy that is bouncy, lively, loves llife, has his tail wagging at all times, loves strangers as much as he loves his owners and goes to strangers to greet them, accepts treats readily and at times (GRRRRRR) would jump on the person inspite of you telling the puppy no no no. They are just exuberant and love everybody.
I am speaking here from the temperaments I have seen in poodle puppies, I am not accustomed to other breeds, but poodle puppies are very much as I have described above. There are also the reserved ones and the more timid ones ofcourse but in general true poodle temperament is a bouncy happy puppy who loves life, the world and people and always aims to please h/her owner.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Purley said:


> My granddaughter came round again this morning. Lucy was scared of her. When I say "scared" I mean when Alyssa called her, she ran away. The same thing happened outside - she ran away. Alyssa wasn't happy. She said Lucy doesn't like her! I said just sit down and let her come and see you. I gave Alyssa a satin ball and she broke bits off for Lucy. At first I had to make Lucy go to her - I picked her up and showed her the food in Alyssa's hand - because she hadn't seen the satin ball. She took it out of Alyssa's hand. She was still hesitant - she would take the food but not come back! Then we went shopping and when we got back she came up and let Alyssa pick her up. She wasn't jumping on her like she does us. But she did go to her.
> 
> We have company coming this afternoon. I am going to tell them to ignore her. Don't try calling her. Just wait and see what happens. I can give them a satin ball, but she probably still won't be totally enthralled with them.
> 
> I know that Lucy hasn't been properly socialized. What would a well socialized five month old puppy do? What kind of behaviour would a socialized puppy show in front of total strangers in her own home! Would she go to a stranger in her home when they called to her? I don't think a well socialized puppy would run away would she? Lucy has seen Alyssa before. Alyssa was here when Lucy got dropped off and she has been here at least twice since.


Millie is well socialized and has a wonderful temperament, but she also has a biological tendency to show fear towards some new objects and people. The difference is that while she is naturally a more cautious individual, because of her socialization she quickly accepts new things, even those that she is at first fearful of. For example, if a friend comes over that Millie has never met, she will back up, wag her tail and bark. She inches forward eventually, wags her tail and within minutes has a new best friend. 

It really depends on the individual dog, but socialization, IMO, helps the dog accept new things. The dog is exposed to a greater variety of people, environments and objects so the dog has a larger "bank" of experiences to draw from in everyday life. Also, this means the pup encounters less new things every day. Also, a dog who is socialized during its earlier, formative weeks might learn that new things are less scary, in general. 

However, it is okay and perfectly natural for some individual dogs to be cautious or wary of new things, but a well socialized and temperamentally sound dog will show initial fear to a stimulus and then quickly turn around and become curious and interested in that stimulus.

In your case, a well socialized puppy with lots of confidence might run right up to a stranger if called. Or, a well socialized puppy who is on the naturally cautious end of the spectrum (but still with a sound temperament) might be cautious at first, but then come up the the stranger very quickly after.

Poodles are very smart dogs, and sometimes the more intelligent dogs are the ones that show some initial caution around new things. That being said, there is a big difference between a fearful aggressive dog or a dog who shows fear and never warms up or becomes curious about the stimulus. I have absolutely NO reason to believe this is the case with your Lucy. I truly believe she is just in need of some socialization to make up for lost time 

I might suggest that you allow Lucy to do her own thing when you company comes over tonight. This will allow Lucy to get used to having strangers in the house. After a while, when everyone is settled in, you might want to have your guests offer a treat to Lucy. 

Sorry for the long post!

Good luck tonight!


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

Beach girl said:


> And yeah, poodles will definitely teach you to keep your laundry in a hamper! Open laundry baskets are an invitation to trouble... in a very cute way, of course.


yep yep yep.:rolffleyes:


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## debjen (Jan 4, 2010)

Flyer at almost 2 still prefers to come to people rather than have people come up to him..if people come up to him he will often back off .. if allowed to come up to people it doesn't take him long to warm up and be in their lap if they will allow it..*G*..

He also likes the laundry basket but prefers my knee high nylons..I swear I bury them deep put them where he can't reach them and he still finds them..ugggghh


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Interesting - this evening I have been at a neighbourhood party (mainly because two of the children came round to check that a missing dog was not at my house, and I later went round to check that she was safe). When I first got Poppy (toy poodle, 19 weeks when I got her, now 14 months) I was worried that she was under socialised fora 5 month old puppy. I have worked quite hard to improve matters - ensuring that she met nice people and nice dogs, and that she had more happy, positive experiences than scarey ones. This evening she found herself at my neighbour's house, along with a friendly Great Dane and several Puppy-mad children - and came through with flying colours. I really am coming to believe that intelligent dogs like poodles can adjust even if they have missed out on the perfect timeframes for recognising human vagaries - Poppy was getting accolades all round this evening for her ability to cope with new people and new situations.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yes. She is not aggressive with it. Just very cautious.

Well -- we kind of wondered why Lucy was still scratching, even though she has been having her ear medication since Wednesday. Because she was very wary of us the first few days, we have never really examined her all over. However, this afternoon, my husband was rolling her on the lawn when he noticed a whole load of spots all over her stomach. I managed to get an appointment right away and she has a skin infection. The vet said she has likely had it a while because some of the spots have dried up already. The newer ones were kind of oozing - very much like miniature chicken pox.

So now she has more medication. One pill to clear up the skin infection and another one to stop the itching!!

The vet also commented on how shy she was, but she was just shy - there was no sign of her being aggressive and I am pretty sure she doesn't have that in her. Its just fearfulness that will be overcome when she gets used to things. Considering she must have been very itchy, she has been racing around the lawn but I bet she feels lots better when the itching goes away!

Pretty soon she shouldn't be fearful at the vet's - she has been there twice in under a week!!

And don't suggest I contact the breeder. Its worth $90 to me not to have to deal with her ever again.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Poor puppy 

I know you are doing your very best, you are not stupid.
I think you are doing more then a lot of people are doing with the dogs. You got unlucky with your poodle. But if she makes no progress I would not return her to have her just go from house to house I would just humanly put her to sleep.

I am not trying to be mean and I so hope that she will be a good pet for you.
But IMO its better to just put them to sleep straight away before they have more of a dramatic life.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yes. I would do that if she didn't make progress, but she has made a lot already - only with us though, but that is still progress.

Years ago I bought a blue merle collie from West Virginia. I intended to show her. She had demodectic mange and heart worms. One patch of mange would clear up - and another would come and so on and so on. 

In the end my vet said the only way would be to shave her and dip her. I had had enough. I had her put to sleep. I phoned the breeder and she said -- oh yes, she is the last one of the litter alive, all the rest had the same problems.

Well, thanks for telling me. 

She did replace her with a perfectly healthy puppy though.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

[ I managed to get an appointment right away and she has a skin infection. The vet said she has likely had it a while because some of the spots have dried up already. The newer ones were kind of oozing - very much like miniature chicken pox.

Purley: Did your vet take skin scraping to diagnose what type of infection Lucy has? Had he considered Staph infection. I know of poodles that get it and it does look like oozing pimples. If it is staph infection you can use a medicated shampoo to wash her which is mild and non irritating. She should be on antibiotics (but specific to Staph). 

So now she has more medication. One pill to clear up the skin infection and another one to stop the itching!!

The vet also commented on how shy she was, but she was just shy - there was no sign of her being aggressive and I am pretty sure she doesn't have that in her. 

Sorry but I do not agree with Minnow. I would put down a dog that is aggresive if I can not turn h/her around, but putting down a SHY puppy is wrong. There are many shy puppies who do not display aggresion, so why put them down, just because they are shy and fearful ?

Some humans are shy while others are more extrovert and happy, that does not meat they are not good people, Same with dogs.

NO. never put down a shy introverted puppy, that does not display aggresive tendencies..


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

*Winnow, * I wonder if you are confusing Purley's puppy Lucy with Ziggylu's puppy, Cosmo? Lucy sounds fine, just undersocialized and trying to make up for lost time. She is progressing very quickly with bonding and learning "no" to chewing on sandals but ok to find a toy in her toy box. Then first being shy with the granddaughter and then allowing the granddaughter to pick her up. That's all within normal expectations of a somewhat shy, undersocialized puppy, who is nevertheless learning fast.

Cosmo, Ziggylu's dog, is the one who won't bond, won't listen, won't do anything it's told to do without a struggle, and prefers to be left alone, and that's after several weeks of working with him. Totally different situation.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

We had friends over for supper last night. Lucy had never seen them before. She didn't run away from them. In fact, when they came in the front door, she ran to the dog gate with the other dogs. I have a free standing step over dog gate near the front door. They sort of said "hi" but just really stepped over the gate and came into the house. 

We were busy chatting and Lucy sat around with the other dogs. After a while, she jumped up at Kathy. 

Lucy still tends to bark at "things" like black plastic garbage bags, and her own reflection in the french doors. I can't remember Sam and Tyson barking at stuff like that - so maybe its her shyness or maybe its poodle. 

She takes the pills well. I put them in a bit of satin ball and she eats them right up. My Shih-tzu Mickey, the one who died of congestive heart failure -- well - you could hide a tiny half a pill in any food and he would gobble up the food and there - in the bottom of the bowl would be the tiny half of the pill!!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Purley:
This is great news about Lucy.. She is certainly making leaps and bounds steps already. Good going.
It is normal for some puppies to bark at objects they are not familiar with.
Dont put her so much under a microscope to analyse every movement or action she takes.. Just let her be and igonre these things. It is normal for some pups to bark at her reflection in the glass doors or mirros...LOL maybe she trully enjoys looking at her beautiful self.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yes thanks. After all, she hasn't been here a week and for a shy puppy - especially one with all those infections - I think she is doing well. 

Everyone at my agility class is away this week and I was going to take her so she could start running over some low jumps - one pole - the height Tyson does with his funny shoulder - but as she is on so many meds, I have decided to leave her at home with my husband. 

If she is not itchy by next Sunday and everyone is away again, I can take her then. I have her registered for a beginners class starting September 21. I have cancelled the puppy class with that woman who went tattling to the breeder. I couldn't imagine still taking her class!!

I asked my friend who trained the "tattler" what the new trainer is like, because although I know who he is I have never taken one of his classes and she replied "Tom is somewhat like me, tough on the exterior but helpful when you need it."

So that will be perfect.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Sounds good!

Don't rush the agility jumps; she really should not be doing any jumps at all for a while, even the low ones. Usual recommendation is to not do any jumps until puppy is a year old. This is an excellent time to start her on flatwork and recall and heel and "touch" and the difference between "right" and "left" and all those things. If she gets that really good founation down pat, she will be so much better in learning how to take direction from you in running the course.

Casey barked at his reflection in the French doors for a long time. He couldn't figure out why this other dog would appear at sunset every day and never play with him! Eventually he quit barking - don't know if he figured it out or just gave up on this strange dog who was visible but not "sniffable."


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I wasn't going to do much with her. It was mostly for socialization. She does get some jumping in here - she races around and I have some little wire fences round the flowerbeds that she has jumped over. I have been teaching her that the flowerbeds are not where dogs are supposed to go. Mind you, compared with Shih-tzu legs, her legs are so long she doesn't have to make much effort to get over the little wire fences!


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

And your Youtube videos of all this are going to appear - when???? ;-)


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I am putting some interesting photos in the photo section - right now!!


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> Purley: Did your vet take skin scraping to diagnose what type of infection Lucy has? Had he considered Staph infection. I know of poodles that get it and it does look like oozing pimples. If it is staph infection you can use a medicated shampoo to wash her which is mild and non irritating. She should be on antibiotics (but specific to Staph).


I agree with this. Your Vet should have tested her skin infection for a type of bacteria involved !

Staph is contagious not only for other animals but can be transmitted to humans too. If treated with wrong antibiotic it can than become resistant to that antibiotic and become a MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus) which can be deadly for the pet as well as humans.

In CA there are more and more cases of communally acquired MRSA and there are cases where pets and/or other animals did infect humans. 

At this point she definitely does not have MRSA since clinical picture presents itself more as a boil than a pimple , but I would make sure that her "crusts" were cultured in a lab. for Staph and proper antibiotic being used.

I am sorry to hear that you have to go through all of this hardship with your puppy :smow: : (((, just so sad : ((( for all involved.

Since she has so many infections IMO her immunity is compromised in some way and you might want to work on that too !!! Her shyness is definitely not helping with that since she is in constant stress which in return can compromise her immunity BIG time : ((((...

Wishing you both fast recovery and resolution of all problems in very near future !!!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Purely:
I agree with Wishpoo. Your vet must test and culture the skin before administering any medication.
I had asked you if your vet cultured it but you didnt reply so I figured ok....

Staph infection is contagious among dogs and if not treated can spread like fire.

Staph is related to low/poor immune system and as such any stress can bring on and/or exacerbate this condition.

Staph can also run in families of dogs, and if your female's line has had staph then it is likely that consecutive litters will experience this too.

Since you are no longer in communication with this breeder , best to find out what this skin infection is all about and have a confirmed diagnosis.
So many skin infections are not treated properly by the vet if they are not cultured to determine what bacteria it is.

Ask your vet to do a culture and based on the results to give you the "appropriate" mediation. If he gave you broad spectrum antibiotics it will not work to erradicate this condition. Not only should he give you the proper antibiotics IN SUCH CASE she has Staph infection but also sell you a shampoo to wash your girl with.

Best for you to have him determine the bacteria than just put your girl on a broad spectrum antibiotics which may not even work .

Just a thought..


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## alwayson (Dec 24, 2013)

Purley said:


> When ziggylu posted about her standard and the problems she was having -- lots of people on here, including me, thought she should return the dog to the breeder.
> 
> My husband and I talked last night and decided that we will keep Lucy - no matter what. We think that if she goes back where she came from, she might very well end up in a different home where the people are not willing to work with her and she will and end up at the Humane Society being euthanized. You can just tell from the dogs being re-homed on Kijiji that people will get a pet but then get rid of it when it suits them We want to work with her. Do you think we are stupid considering she might never be the Poodle that I wanted???
> 
> ...


 You have your work cut out for you but I am sure the rewards will out way that . I had a older couple in there 70 , both had some kind of surgery , but they wanted two of my kids , one was older and one was months ( I don't sell my puppy's to young ) so at the end of a week and half they send me a email , ( they wanted me to come for Christmas dinner ) so they ask could I take them both back . They were more work then they thought . Thay two before, but the dogs got old with them . I said of course that is in the contract , so 3 days later I am at the door and in a very soft voice Ann say's can we keep Tucker , I said what every works for you , I gave them there check back . so had a great time with their family , So when I got ready to leave I took Thor ( apricot male. Ann starts to cry then I cry and I said it will be ok if you want him back later you can have him , that made her feel better , 2 days later she calls said she cried for 2 days and didn't want to give up on him , So back over the mountain we go , she was crying grab Thor and was showing him to all her family . So to make a long story I made some wonderful friends and they are so happy , both dogs are working out wonderful with them, So your heart is big and you will succeed with this baby once you get going . You never know what would happen if you sent him back you would always have that little doubt ' What If " Sorry for being so windy LOL


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I would like to know, how you stop a standard poodle puppy from jumping???
Eric.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

this is a thread from 2010. hopefully the past 4 years have been happy ones for the op and her dog.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Whats with the last post before mine???


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

:deadhorse: syndrome?


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Poor pony!


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