# Attacked from behind...Our 1 year old SPOO does this.



## dhogan17 (Oct 30, 2012)

Lando, our 1 year old SPOO, likes to rear on his hind legs and jump on me from behind. This "humping" motion is alarming, as it tends to knock me off balance and (I heard) is his sign of thinking that he is dominant over us.

At his height, when I turn around we are eye-to-eye and I can't help but wonder what he is thinking!

Anybody have this problem? Know of its origins? Or have any solutions they recommend?

I'm all ears (poodle ears)...

Thanks!

Dylan


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

Hi Dylan. 

Not all humping behavior indicates that a dog has 'dominance' issues, not that this may or not be the case, but generally a dog that thinks it runs the show will have a few telling issues-things tend to add up quickly!

Some dogs hump when they're overly stimulated (not necessarily sexually, either!), have too much anxiety, or energy pent up. Some of them I think even just do it for fun. 

Is he neutered? 

How is his attitude about it, playful or more serious? 

I haven't had many dogs with humping issues. Gryphon likes to occasionally hump our terrier, and how often he does this is directly correlated with how frustrated he gets with him. If our terrier isn't 'playing' or is getting more attention than him (ie-if I throw the beloved rope toy for the terrier ). This is pretty rare though. He is turning 8mo's soon, and isn't neutered. 

Our terrier humped the hubby ONCE, and it was when he was sleeping on the couch and it startled him awake and freaked him out. He didn't yell at him, but just kinda yelled out as he was waking up (was humping his head...), and the poor little thing decided he didn't so much like humping people anymore.


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## WhosMyFluffyPuppy (Jan 12, 2013)

For a while, my spoo had a bad habit of jumping on people (from the front, though). The trainer we used tried several exercises, but the one that worked for us was this:

Get the dog excited enough to jump on someone, then the second he put his paws up on someone we shook a can with a screw in it to make a startling noise and said loudly "OFF!" and gave him lots of praise and treats when he put his feet on the ground. 

The only problem with this is we needed two of us always (one to be jumped on and one to shake the can) and then it progressed to needing a friend because our dog would never jump on us, but would still occasionally jump on "strangers." 

Eventually it has progressed to the point where he kept his feet on the ground, and we gave him treats for keeping his feet there and greeting nicely. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Humping is almost always due to over stimulation. Jumping up on you has nothing to do with dominance. 

I wish people would leave the idea that everything a dog does is due to dominance in the past where it belongs! Sorry, this isn't directed at anyone in particular, I just mean the general public because this false theory does a diservice to dog owners everywhere because everything is painted with a dominance or submission brush and no one is likely to ever understand what's _really_ going on.

The easiest thing to do is to ask for an incompatible behavior. The dog can't jump up if he's cued to lie down. So you'd have the get the "down" cue solid so there's really no question that he'll lie down when you ask for it. 

It would also be best to ask for the "down" when you see that he's about to jump but hasn't done it yet, since it's not preferable for him to practice an undesired behavior. You want to cut it off before it happens. 

In the situation of jumping dogs, I prefer "down" over a "sit" because it's easier to jump up from a sit than from a down and because the act of lying down is somewhat calming, which is needed in this kind of situation since a calm dog is less likely to jump.

The best way to get a solid "down" is, in my opinion, to capture it. Even if he already knows down, you can re-teach it. Look on Youtube for "capturing a down". And you have to reward him richly. Make sure not to bribe. Use your reward correctly. Don't have it showing in your hand so he can see it. You want to bring it out after he's done the behavior. 

Don't practice downs until he gets bored. You want to do short sessions but do them often. And ask for downs at random, in a lot of different situations so the behavior will be proofed. 

When the behavior is reliably being performed, wean him off the reward to intermittent use. But always praise him lavishly.

The benefit to teaching a calming down is that eventually, he'll start to lie down all by himself to settle down when he's feeling over stimulated. Then you want to be sure to reinforce this as well.

You might also want to look at his lifestyle and consider whether he's getting enough mental and physical exercise. Maybe adding more might drain some of his excess stimulation.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Poppy went through a phase of jumping up to bite my bum when she was excited - it always got a wnoderful reaction because I was not expecting it, and would squeal and jump a foot in the air - great fun for poodles. I did turn round and roar at her at one point, which stopped it for a while, but the big breakthrough came when I worked out when and where she was most likely to try it (top of the stairs, where it was easiest for her to reach, and also of course the most dangerous spot for me), and taught her to control her excitement. Very easy - I would take step towards the stairs, she would start to bounce, I moved my weight back onto the foot away from the stairs without a word. Within minutes she learned that if she bounced and got excited, we didn't go downstairs and out for a walk. Since then I've taught her to go down ahead of me, all the way to the bottom to avoid trip hazards in years to come!

I strongly suspect he jumps because he is feeling exuberant, it is one of the ways dogs play with each other, and it gets him an exciting reaction and lots of attention. Cutting out the reaction for misbehaving and giving lots and lots of attention for an incompatible behaviour like Down may be all you need to do!


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## poodlelover2014 (Jan 20, 2013)

Get a pinch collar. Tie a short lead on it like even a shoelace. When he does this turn, say down, and pull straight down. The dog needs to learn what unacceptable behavior is.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

poodlelover2014 said:


> Get a pinch collar. Tie a short lead on it like even a shoelace. When he does this turn, say down, and pull straight down. The dog needs to learn what unacceptable behavior is.


Please don't. There are any number of better ways of teaching him what behaviour you like, and what you don't, than using force and punishment in this way.


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## poodlelover2014 (Jan 20, 2013)

The dog is showing dominance. Left unchecked this dof can go on to hurt someone. Over stimulation or even over excited are buzz words that really do not exist. If your dog is truly over excited you'd never be able to fix this problem. Dogs need to know boundries , just like kids. If a kid touches a light socket and gets shocked he won't touch it again. If your dog gets a negative reaction to jumping up he'll never jump up. Either in front, behind, strangers or anyone. Treats and rewards fix the problem for you. However a dog in society will never listen to down especially when the reward disappears. Also don't be stupid and call it punishment its corrective behavior same as food training.


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## poodlelover2014 (Jan 20, 2013)

Also listen to your logic. Dog jumps up, you turn say down he gets a treat or reward. Dogs mind oh if I jump up then lay down I get a treat. I should jump up all the time. Its illogical.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Not quite.

Down - or some other incompatible behaviour - is trained as an alternative to jumping up, not as something done for a treat after jumping up. Knowing the trigger - excitement, back turned, etc, etc - means that you can catch the moment BEFORE the dog jumps, and set them up for success by teaching them another way of getting the attention that they seek. Your method attempts to punish the behaviour out of them - they have to fail and be punished for it before any learning can take place.

"punishment [ˈpʌnɪʃmənt] n
1. (Law) a penalty or sanction given for any crime or offence
2. (Law) the act of punishing or state of being punished
3. Informal rough treatment
4. (Psychology) Psychol any aversive stimulus administered to an organism as part of training
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged"

Force and aversives may change behaviour, but they can also wreck the relationship between dog and owner, leave the dog shut down and reluctant to try anything new for fear of being punished, or lead to other, worse problems in the future. This is a one-year old pup, doing what adolescents do. I absolutely agree that dogs need boundaries - I do not agree that using a prong collar to enforce boundaries through the deliberate infliction of pain is the best way of teaching them.

My dogs listen to me in public, whether I have treats with me or not. They have learned that good stuff very often happens if they are paying attention, and the association is so strong that the behaviour is now self rewarding.


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## poodlelover2014 (Jan 20, 2013)

35 years of training and 3 rally champions would disagree. My dogs love me and the dogs we train love us and their owners. You cannot reward bad behaviors or you get spoiled dogs who do whatever they want. Posticve renforcment is great for introductory training of sits and downs, even stays. But corrective behavior is what this dog needs.


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## poodlelover2014 (Jan 20, 2013)

Also what if the dogs not seeking attention and merely looking to submit its owner? Also reward behavior takes many repetitions, if you have to catch it in the act and he only does said behavior once a day you'll never fix it. I set the dog up for success. He causes the reaction and when he goes down he realses the pressure, not pain, pressure. The dog is fixing it himself.


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

I agree with fjm.

The whole dominance thing is completely over played, and there is hardly any indication that the behavior is stemming from it. 

If the best you can do is inflict pain, or scare your dog to get the point across all you're doing is teaching them to be afraid of an action, rather than learning what the appropriate action is. Your dog will still be an idiot, it's just afraid to do that specific unwanted behavior. It will not increase over-all obedience, so may as well figure out how to train your dog without causing pain/scaring it.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Really? The dog is showing dominance? Showing dominance over what resource? Do you even know what dominance is?

OP, it's entirely up to you how you feel your dog deserves to be treated. You can teach him appropriate behavior using kind methods with no chance of fall out due to punishment, or you can use less than kind methods and risk fall out from punishment and also jeopardize your relationship with your dog. 

I'm a professional animal trainer. Not only do I train dogs, but I train all different kind of animals, animals that you can't strong arm into doing what you want. I also train service dogs. And I also train countless rescue animals, many with severe behavior issues. I don't use corporal punishment or intimidation. Even with the worst cases, I've never had need for a prong collar and I've had to deal with too many cases of redirected aggression due to the use of tools like prong collars. I've had the pleasure of throwing many a prong collar away.

I'm not showing off despite how this might sound. That's not why I'm saying this. What I'm trying to say is that it's entirely possible to teach your dog not to jump up on you without resorting to harsh methods. 

And before you jump onto the dominance bandwagon also, you might want to see what the ethologists say about dominance. 

Here's an excellent article to get you started by Marc Bekoff PhD.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog.../social-dominance-is-not-myth-wolves-dogs-and

James O'Heare.
Dominance Theory and Dogs | James O'Heare

Sophia Yin DVM, MS
The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
Traditional Dog Training | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

You can search more yourself. Consider who's word you're taking. Their education, their qualifications, their credentials.


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## poodlelover2014 (Jan 20, 2013)

Prong collars do not cause pain...... The dog is correcting the pressure. Grab yourself on the arm feel that pressure, that's a prong. By putting downward pressure on the dog he realizes that hey theirs pressure on my neck when I jump up on this way and when I am down he no longer feels the pressure. So he decided to stop the pressure. He makes the decision your are not causing pain to your dog. Its showing the dog I can't go anywhere with jumping IP so why do it. You could do the same thing by ignoring the dog but that would take time. Treats and rewards do not stop unwanted boundary infrindgments. 

But they are right do what you feel comfortable with. I'm just trying to get these food geeks to realize prongs are not wrong.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

I don't even know where to begin...

"Over stimulation or even over excited are buzz words that really do not exist."

Wrong. Just simply, wrong. I suppose you've never heard of threshold or is that a buzz word too?



> However a dog in society will never listen to down especially when the reward disappears.


It's clear that you don't know how learning theory works. If you've done it incorrectly and turned the reward into a bribe, then yes. You've created dependance. But you've also created dependance on corrections if the threat of one isn't always there to enforce compliance. That's a bribe too. Do what I want and I won't hurt you.

Maybe you should meet some positive trained service dogs. These dogs are hardly being plied with treats when their disabled handlers are paralyzed and can barely move. Or suffering from any other disability and need the dog to assist them while they're busy with life. Too busy to have a dog that only functions if constantly rewarded.



> Also don't be stupid and call it punishment its corrective behavior same as food training.


I wouldn't call others stupid since you don't even seem to be aware of the operant conditioning quadrants. It's not stupid to call what you suggested it's PROPER TERM BY DEFINITION.



> Positive punishment (Punishment) (also called "Punishment by contingent stimulation"): occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by a stimulus, such as introducing a shock or loud noise, resulting in a decrease in that behavior.





> Also listen to your logic. Dog jumps up, you turn say down he gets a treat or reward. Dogs mind oh if I jump up then lay down I get a treat. I should jump up all the time. Its illogical.


This demonstrates three things. 
1. You don't seem to understand how chaining behaviors work.
2. This would be poor training, which explains why you're so disparaging of positive reinforcement since you don't know how to use it correctly. You would reinforce all four feet on the ground BEFORE the dog has a chance to jump so all four feet on the ground is more reinforcing than jumping up and the dog understands that you're telling it to keep all four feet on the ground when excited.
3. If you're unable to tell BEFORE a dog jumps up, then you're a poor trainer because it means that you're slow and you can't read body language.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Whether prongs are "wrong" is subjective to anyone's opinion.

But of course they cause enough discomfort or pain to get the dog to want to avoid the prongs digging into their neck.

If it felt good, then the dog wouldn't work to avoid the pressure on the collar. They'd work to get pressure from the collar. 

And the feeling is subjective as well. What hurts me may not hurt another person. I've tested prong collars on my NECK where dogs wear them and tugged and it HURT. 

So just because you claim that it didn't hurt YOU doesn't mean that it would feel the same for another sentient creature. It's quite an assumption to believe that everyone feels what YOU feel. Like you're some kind of standard to judge by.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

"Posticve renforcment is great for introductory training of sits and downs, even stays."

This also shows that you don't know how it works. It's not the whole system that's failed. It's you. But we see that you'd rather blame the system.

Kikopup proves you wrong at every angle. She heads off jumping before it happens and reinforces the dog with food, because the dog she's working with is food motivated. For a person to not utilize what the dog is willing to work for is just a lack of a prime opportunity and shows a lack of understanding of how learning works. 






She also makes a ridicule of your dominance statements. 






You don't seem to understand what social dominance is. I'd love for you to give us the definition, please.

Here's another video proving food trained dogs don't just work when treats are present.


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## Mom-n-Reiki (Jan 6, 2013)

fjm said:


> Force and aversives may change behaviour, but they can also wreck the relationship between dog and owner, leave the dog shut down and reluctant to try anything new for fear of being punished, or lead to other, worse problems in the future. This is a one-year old pup, doing what adolescents do. I absolutely agree that dogs need boundaries - I do not agree that using a prong collar to enforce boundaries through the deliberate infliction of pain is the best way of teaching them.
> .


This is a common misconception made mostly by people who use purely positive training methods, and I see and hear this statement a lot.
My dogs ("my" being used to refer to my personal dogs, as well as my client dogs) are always trained on choke chains using a modified "Koehler Method". For those of you unfamiliar with William Koehler, he was a big trainer from California, who's claim to fame was by training dogs for Disney movies such as "The Incredible Journey" and "Swiss Family Robinson". Dogs are encouraged and rewarded for offering behaviors and trying new things, but also given corrections for incorrect behavior. You do not use corrections in teaching new behaviors when introducing the behavior, but to proof the known command once the dog is familiar with the behavior as well as for innapripriate actions (such as jumping up and trying to hump people (to give an example relating to this thread).

These types of training methods, when USED CORRECTLY (CAPS for emphasis, never for yelling) do not destroy owner-dog relationships. If used incorrectly, and without any positive reinforcement (treats, praise, toys, ect), then problems may arise. If so, I would not be getting new clients (no advertising, but word of mouth), or return clients with dogs who listen and love them, and are very visably happy to respond to commands. My client dogs would surely be hiding from me or turned on me or their owners by now, because I correct them, right?

And my owns dogs, if I were to believe that we had no relationship and they have "shut down" and stopped listening, or maybe started a whole new slew of negative behaviors (such as aggression?), certainly wouldn't rush me at the door when I get home from work to greet my husband and I, sleep on the bed with us at night (and by with us, I mean on top of us), or would come back (and be happy about it) when we call them as they race down the beach. My great dane and I certainly have a ruined relationship because I used corrections when training him for obedience and service dog tasks. He certainly doesn't cry and figure out how to open his crate when I am stuck in bed with a migrane, paw my leg when he smells my husband pull in the driveway, or realize that I have awful depth perception at night and offer to help me down the stairs; just to sarcastically name some behaviors he just started offering this month without my teaching him. Have I mentioned he's deaf? Yet I can trust him off leash because he checks in with me every few minutes and comes racing back when I call him, even if he's playing with another dog-and he was doing this before his SD training. But, of course, training with corrections and praise means my Ash should have at least bit me by now, and Misha would have run away ages ago. I had to move down to the keys ahead of my husband and was not able to bring my dogs right away so they staued with him....Ashley stopped eating and lost thirty pounds over the four months I was getting established here. We had everything from xrays to bloodwork and thyroid and diabetes tests done on him and the vet found nothing wrong and told my husband Ash was freaking out because I hadn't come home yet....but, if you go off this theory, we have no relationship and my dogs hate me and listen out of fear; that must be the reason right? I must be like one of the local groomers, who gets bit so frequently and so badly that she has to keep taking days off? 

I am horribly touchy about this subject and this isn't an attack on anyone. Different training methods are the best for different dogs, but there is no one size fits all method like many training philosophies like you to believe. The owner and the trainer they are working with will be able to figure out what is best with that particular dog, at that time, with that behavior.

But to answer the original question, Ash would try to hump when I first got him when he would get overly excited. I would wrestle him off (and with a dog taller then you, who weighs more than you, it is wrestling) and and place him into either a sit or down and hold him there for a few moments, praised him quietly (no need to make a huge deal over his sit because you had to put him in a sit because he was jumping on you) for holding the sit or down before I let him up. If you use a tab (small piece of fabirc) or leash attached to a training collar, you pull down and release as soon as all four feet are on the floor or in the position you would like him in (my problem was caused by me coming home, so I would put him in a sit if he jumped on me, once I repeated this enough for him to get the idea of what I would want (he would start to sit, then decide to jump anyway) is when you would start the correction).


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

What the fluff is a food geek?

Check the ego, this is about dogs. 

Who needs 30 years worth of expert opinion on how to yank a dog around by it's neck and punish it into submission? No one. That's the easy way out, and honestly my mother has had two dogs, and probably less than 5 years experience not being a trainer and your plan sounds pretty much like something she would do.

The thing that bothers me the most is that we go to the lengths to provide thoughtful advice, the OP hasn't even returned to say if they have tried anything, and you just barge in with this doomsayer speech.

Not entering the prong debate, I've already conceded that while I do not use them that if it's possible to use them correctly that I have no problem with people choosing to do so. My qualm is with the idea that to train out humping/jumping the dog should be forcefully yanked to the floor.

I also want to add that someone who needs help with something simple like teaching their dog not to jump up probably does not have intensive experience using a pinch safely, either, so by process of eliminating risk I just simply wouldn't recommend it in this situation.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Your dog looks to you and expects violence from you. Whether that's a ruined relationship or not is each person's opinion. Yes, digging spikes into your dog's neck counts as violence, as does yanking on their neck.

I like that my dogs behave, look to me for direction, and don't expect me to lash out at them. But that's just me. I don't feel a need to bully them into suppression. That's not how I get my kicks. 

It's all about what each person wants and decides and our dogs, like usual, are caught in the middle and are at our mercy. 

And there are plenty of crossover trainers to disagree that a relation based on issuing physical corrections is a good one once they've seen how much better their relationship is when they no longer bully their dogs.

It's my hope that the OP wants better for their dog than a prong collar but like I said, it's their decision. It's their dog. It's up to them and the dog has to experience what they decide.

You'd be hard pressed to find any behaviorist (I mean REAL behaviorists with behavioral science degrees) who advocates prong collars. Behaviorists get referrals for the most severe cases. If they can handle much, much worse than a puppy's jumping up without prong collars, then there's absolutely no need for anyone to be using one on an exuberant puppy.

I'm still waiting for the definition of dominance that justifies this puppy's jumping as a show of dominance.


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## milliesmom (Dec 15, 2012)

I think it is important to realize that dogs do not feel what we feel when we train them. My dog might not feel pain from something that I do feel pain from and vice versa. An example, I had a dog that loved to swim. If there was water, he wanted to be in it. It could be 40 degrees in January and he didn't care, he wanted to be in that water and he had a blast. Now for me, I would have been freezing and the water would have been painful. To Max, my St. Bernard/German Shep retired police dog (who was trained with a shock collar and prong collar before I got him)he didn't feel any pain at all and the water felt great to him. 

So lets look at this in another perspective with a prong collar, what my dog feels is not what I feel. My dog is very open to telling me when something hurts her. When I remove dead hair from her ears, you might think I was torturing her from the next room. When I use a prong collar on her, she shows zero indication that she is hurting. I personally do not think that the prong collar hurts when used correctly, if it is fitted correctly it cannot pinch a dog past a certain point, if fitted incorrectly, I could def see where that would be painful. If my dog ever showed any indication that she was afraid or in pain, I would stop immediately.

For my previous dog Max, when I got him he came with his Dogtra e collar, when I adopted him the person showed me how to use it. This was before I ever entered into the world of dog training further so I had no past experience with the e collar and the horrible things people say about it. The person who showed it to me explained that Max didn't even need it anymore, but that if you are in a high distraction area off leash near a road, it might not hurt for him to wear it just in case. I was a little uneasy about the 'shock' collar because at first it sounds bad. However I put it on myself and pressed the button at the same level my dog got. It didn't feel like a shock or painful by any means. I think something important to point out is that these collars are not meant to be used at a level that is painful, they are only meant to be used at the very first level the dog is able to feel something, which, as we know, is different for different dogs because dogs don't feel the same way we do. It is not about 'shocking dogs'...I promise it is not like that, if you have even been to a doctor that used a tens unit, it is the same thing. 

I think something very important to keep in mind is that every dog is different and every dog will respond to different training methods. I think as a dog owner it is important to know and study every method and to know how to use the methods you choose correctly. Every kind of training method can be used incorrectly and to the detriment of your dog. Every kind of training method can also be used in a positive way with wonderful results. 

If you are going to use a prong collar, e-collar, clicker, marker word, treats, praise, gentle leader or ANYTHING ELSE, please educate yourself on them before you use them. 

Every dog has the potential to be awesome, and I feel that sometimes when we are so focused on ONLY using this or that method it is a great disservice to the dog.

To the OP- you have to decide what works for and what is best for your dog, and we are all more than happy to give our opinions(as you can very well see...some great trainers I look to for information that is easy to read and find online as well as youtube are...tab 289(youtube)...Robin Mcfarlane from Thats my dog(she has a website, blog, and you tube channel), and Jeff Gellman from Solid K9 training(he comes across very intense but if you actually watch his videos he is very fair and humane in his dog training...he also has a website, blog, and youtube channel), and Dog Star Daily....these are only a few but show you humane ways to use a wide range of metods.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Well I'm not a trainer but I might as chime in...although I have never used one, if you search this forum you will see many members here aren't against prong collars per se. However, just for jumping up? It's a pretty easy behaviour to change; a lot of consistency and practice should fix it. Poodles are so smart and sensitive, I don't think prong collars are the answer for jumping up. Just practice what fjm advised every day a few times around the triggers that had your dog jumping up before and make sure that you have a positive experience every single time for a week. Bet you will see a HUGE difference in only a week, if you work on it!


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Your dogs in water example are extremely poor. Dogs run significantly warmer than humans dog and they're covered in hair or fur. So a dog's ability to stay warm when a human wouldn't has what, exactly to do with pain?

Your dog is very open to telling you when something hurts her? By what signs do you think a dog uses to indicate when they're uncomfortable with what you're doing to them? I'd like to know how you know? Because she doesn't yelp? Big tell! Learning how to read body language isn't a skill that punishment trainers teach or learn. It's not important how the dog is feeling or why the dog is doing something. The only thing that matters is that the dog complies when you demand it.

What you write is just evidence of you regurgitating what your punishment advocate trainers have told you in order to convince you that what they're doing is okay.

If you knew what you were talking about, then you'd never claim that prong collars ever pinch to any degree since they're not capable of pinching at all. 

The prongs dig into the dog's skin. They don't pinch.

If the prong collar is such a wonderful sensation, or the shock for that matter as well, then why do dogs work to avoid getting pressure from prong collars and shock from the shock collar? If it was so lovely and tolerable, then why are the dogs working to avoid getting corrections by them?

Positive reinforcement training isn't a single method, it's comprised of countless methods, just as punitive training is comprised of countless methods as well. So claiming that it's one method just shows your ignorance of what you speak of and how what you say is just regurgitation of what you were told and no critical thinking for yourself.

I've had TENS treatment and it was downright unpleasant. I've also tried numerous makes and models of shock collars on myself and they were downright unpleasant as well. If they weren't, they wouldn't work since you'd just be reinforcing the behavior that you're trying to stop.

By the very definition of the word, electrical shock and driving spikes into your dog's neck isn't humane.

Robin McFarlane is a laughing stock in the dog training world amongst anyone with any semblance of an education beyond her self erected school of shock. She isn't even capable of teaching the most basic thing without a shock collar. She's limited to a crutch because without it, she can't achieve results. That's the level of her ineptitude. 

To be honest, you couldn't even teach a puppy bite inhibition by yourself. You're really way out of your league. You sent your puppy away to a board and train where they put a prong collar on a puppy and gave it a yank to suppress your puppy's normal play behaviors. Your puppy may have shown distress or opposition to it, like many dog, but then a harder correction is given to suppress that as well. Whatever it takes to silence the dog and have them cowed into compliance. I've seen it once, I've seen it a thousand times. That's what you want for the dog you claim to love so much.

Nice job. And a beautiful perspective on how people should be treating the animals at their mercy. 

This thread is really getting disgusting with the things that people are advocating and justifying. Why not just save yourself the money for the lessons and punishment equipment and punch the dog in the face until they start behaving? Choking, digging prongs in the dog's neck, giving them electric shocks, it's all the same pattern of treatment. 

Some people would be better off with toy robotic dogs with no feelings who never misbehave than a living, breathing, real life sentient creature with feelings and emotions. 

You can be a tyrannical dictator or you can be a patient, nurturing teacher. The choice, unfortunately, is up to each individual how they want to treat their vulnerable animals.

I'm done with this.


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## milliesmom (Dec 15, 2012)

Yet again you are rude msminniemouse to anyone who disagrees with you on dog training. Also, did you skim things because I never sent my dog to a board and train program I took her to reputable trainer for a behavior I wanted her to stop and for extra guidance because I am learning. I was there the whole time with my dog. I have never proclaimed myself an expert. All I have done is given my positive experiences and what worked for me. 
(EDIT TO ADD: I don't think all board and train programs are bad. Maybe Msminniemouse is remembering wrong(giving her the benifit of the doubt), I did send a dog to board and train once, years ago(mentioned this when LOU was getting some bad feedback because she sent her dog to board and train) because I worked a 70 hours a week at the time and I wanted my dog to work on some behaviors so he could come to work with me. I knew the trainer personally and I knew how she would train my dog. Board and train doesnt mean you are a bad person or even a bad dog trainer.)

If something worked for me that you think is wrong or when your suggestions didn't work for me on something you all of a sudden, without having a clue to the person I am, or what I did with my dog, accuse me of poor training and of being a tyrannical dictator. 

Never once said positive reinforcement is comprised of one method...again...did you skim?

I don't think that a low level shock or prong collars are wonderful sensations nor did I EVER say that. However when used correctly they are not in the least painful and they are annoying if anything. 

My example of the water was obviously just an example of how dogs do not feel what we do, and that includes pain. I am simply expressing that what you said, we do not feel what dogs feel, is a correct statement and goes both ways. 

If my dog is wagging her tail, excited, confindent, and showing all the signs that she is happy that she does when we are playing any game, I do not believe she is feeling any pain. If you think that makes me a moran, that is your opinion, go for it. 

My corrections have never had to get stronger they stay consistent, my dog listens to me the first time and she is not afraid of me. 

As far as turning the sensation of a prong off. So what. Like I said it annoying. I want my dog to supress negative behavior such a jumping up or biting. I don't think there is anything wrong with supressing negative behavior. We supress the desire to do certain things in life because we avoid negative outcomes, why shouldnt my dog do the same? 

Go ahead and degrade me and imply that I don't love my dog. Anyone who has trained with a prong collor in the correct way knows that it does not mean that we love our dog less and it does not ruin our relationship with our dog. I know that my dog and I have a WONDERFUL relationship.

As far as Robin Mcfarlane goes, she has helped a lot of people with their dogs. Go ahead and call her a laughing stock. It doesn't change the fact that she has helped aggressive dogs and many people who were turned away from other trainers. She knows that, I know that, and the people she has helped know that. 

Instead of biting my head off for studying many methods and trying to learn as much as I can(again I am by no means an expert I am just enthralled by the dog training world and learning as much as I can), wouldn't you show your opinion better by politely sharing it?

If you are done because we have a different opinion, then I am sorry you felt you had to leave something just because you didn't change everyones mind. If you are done because you just get upset reading what I say, then I completely understand.


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## Erin (Dec 11, 2012)

All effective training is a mix of positive and negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement does not equal abuse. Prong and choke collars are TOOLS and should be used correctly, or else can become abusive. Not everything works for every dog.

My mom spanked me as a child -- hey, it worked! She still loved me when she did. As long as negative reinforcement is used correctly and in conjuncture with positive reinforcement, it is not "evil" and should not be demonized.

Don't like it? Don't use it!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Meo'smom (Jan 3, 2013)

*what a debate...*

I'm new to this forum and was expecting to be able to ask questions without having a second thought...Jeez, I NEVER expected people to act like this. I know we are all passionate people but this is MEAN...
I'm wondering...is it safe to ask a question without starting a world war?

By the way, Meo also jumps on me and standing at 5 feet tall...he manages to pretty much "push" me. He does this when he wants to play (which is always! but that's another thread!) and he does it in a way that some people would see as dominant, he stops if he gets the pissed off sound in my voice...

Anyways, remember, be kind to one another...or at least respectful!:act-up:


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## milliesmom (Dec 15, 2012)

Meo's mom....agreed! We can't help anyone if we are bickering! I think the best we can do is share our opinions and how things have worked for us and make the decisions we feel work for our situation.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Meo'smom said:


> I'm new to this forum and was expecting to be able to ask questions without having a second thought...Jeez, I NEVER expected people to act like this. I know we are all passionate people but this is MEAN...
> I'm wondering...is it safe to ask a question without starting a world war?
> 
> By the way, Meo also jumps on me and standing at 5 feet tall...he manages to pretty much "push" me. He does this when he wants to play (which is always! but that's another thread!) and he does it in a way that some people would see as dominant, he stops if he gets the pissed off sound in my voice...
> ...


 I agree....msminnamouse, you have made some great posts in the past, but once again you've taken it too far. Dog training is just like any other aspect of dog care: there is more than one way to do it. And it's totally fine that you disagree with some of them! But you can't get rude about it.  

Don't worry Meo'smom, it's safe to ask questions! Even if a thread takes a bad turn, you can usually find some good advice in it. As long as you're ok with ignoring the not so savory parts!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Meo'smom said:


> I'm new to this forum and was expecting to be able to ask questions without having a second thought...Jeez, I NEVER expected people to act like this....I'm wondering...is it safe to ask a question without starting a world war?


Seeing the way you expressed yourself leads me to believe you'll do just fine here. If you browse through the forum you'll find this is one of the longstanding and ongoing debates which resurfaces periodically, encompassing both old and new voices. Passions run high when people think poodles may be harmed, which some strongly believe to be the case with the use of aversives. Others believe with equal fervor such training techniques are humane, expeditious and effective. This discussion always unfolds similarly; things gets heated, the word rude is put into the mix, people tap the "thanks" button to signify their support or allegiance to a viewpoint or member. Then the thread fizzles and people move on to other topics, until the next time--which can be months, more or less, until the debate reactivates. 

In this instance, the debate was resurrected when the OP, a first-time dog owner, asked for help in trying to understand and stop his one year old spoo's jumping behavior. It appears the OP has gone away, or gone silent. This was the guy's second post, he introduced himself as the father of three sons so I'm pretty sure he's seen squabbles that rival the one here. I surmise he got lost or buried in all the words and fury. Who knows? I just hope he finds the guidance he and his family need to go on enjoying their young spoo. I do know this isn't likely to be the last time a discussion on training methods will go a bit off the rails. Just offering my two cents here, but I would advise you not to be in the least discouraged about the goings-on. You will come to see some members stick around for years, and many come and go. Now I suggest you go have some fun looking at all the photos of our amazing poodles!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Meo'smom, Chagall's mom is right. Some of us get very passionate about our points of view. You should ask whatever you want to. You will sometimes get a great diversity of answers. It will be up to you to figure out which ideas will work for you and your dog(s). You can always say thanks but no thanks to yourself about anything that someone says here.

To those who posted passionately here I have a few thoughts to share. While we all have user names and mostly don't share our real names in full, it isn't hard for a clever person who has a little time and a computer to figure out who anyone in an online discussion is in real life. If one values one's reputation one should think twice before hitting the submit reply button. There is nothing to be gained from rudeness. There is much to be lost from it on the other hand. The way some people here have spoken makes it hard to listen to what they are trying to say. 

I teach college. Many of my students are very young and think they are know it alls. Some of them send me emails that reveal themselves to be impulsive, thoughtless and frankly narcissistic. Some of them think it is ok to try to invite me to be their FaceBook friends or send me silly YouTube videos. My generalized answers to these behaviors is to model what I think is polite public discourse or private (such as privacy is in email) correspondence. One of the things I try to instill in my students is the understanding that things said in public on the internet are just that, public. These internet postings can be searched by current or potential employers. They are also permanent. Career forum folks I've met always emphasize the risks to your career potential that cavalier posting on social media represents. I think most of them have been thinking about FaceBook and the like, but this counts too. Unless the PF moderators judge someone's post to be so offensive that they remove it whatever you say here will follow you around forever. If some of you find this offensive in being preachy, I am sorry you find it to be so. However, if you do take offense then maybe you need to take what I've said to heart.

To the OP, redirecting your young dog to an incompatible static behavior (sit or down) will probably be your best solution. I doubt your dog is trying to express dominance over you. Many behaviorists and trainers who formerly subscribed to a social hierarchy model for training dogs have largely abandoned that thinking. I would always recommend trying positive methods first. If you feel the need to resort to an aversive method after seriously trying various positive methods, then be sure to do the research to use the methods and tools correctly. Even in positive training it is important to work carefully and correctly with timing reinforcers and not letting things like food or toys become bribes for eliciting the response you want, but rather having them be rewards that recognize and reinforce the correct response being offered. I hope you find an effective solution to your problem.


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

poodlelover2014 said:


> 35 years of training and 3 rally champions would disagree. My dogs love me and the dogs we train love us and their owners. You cannot reward bad behaviors or you get spoiled dogs who do whatever they want. Posticve renforcment is great for introductory training of sits and downs, even stays. But corrective behavior is what this dog needs.


35 years of training and only 3 rally champions... that speaks volumes in itself

3 years of going to positive training with my poodle and 8 rally titles, with a High in Trial at the excellent level.

hmmmmm....which method do I prefer.....


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## Meo'smom (Jan 3, 2013)

*Thanks!*

Thank you very much! I understand the passion and will indeed indulge in PPT (Poodle Picture Therapy):act-up:


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## Meo'smom (Jan 3, 2013)

*Good advice*



lily cd re said:


> Meo'smom, Chagall's mom is right. Some of us get very passionate about our points of view. You should ask whatever you want to. You will sometimes get a great diversity of answers. It will be up to you to figure out which ideas will work for you and your dog(s). You can always say thanks but no thanks to yourself about anything that someone says here.
> 
> To those who posted passionately here I have a few thoughts to share. While we all have user names and mostly don't share our real names in full, it isn't hard for a clever person who has a little time and a computer to figure out who anyone in an online discussion is in real life. If one values one's reputation one should think twice before hitting the submit reply button. There is nothing to be gained from rudeness. There is much to be lost from it on the other hand. The way some people here have spoken makes it hard to listen to what they are trying to say.
> 
> ...


From the many threads that I've read, i know that mostly all of you offer your advice and support with all your hearts! Now that's what a poodle will do for you! :angel: I will for sure be asking questions!


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

I apologize if I came across as rude, I did get snippy with the person that called me a food geek (mostly because I don't even get what that means, but know that it was an underhanded attempt to hurt us/me somehow lol).


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

MaryLynn I wasn't thinking about anything you said when I posted.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

While dusting the bookshelves earlier_ (good girl!)_ my copy of Jean Donaldson's "The Culture Clash" fell to the floor, opening to a page where I years ago highlighted this. It made me think of the conversation we'd been having here. 

"A dog has been jumping up and mouthing the kids. This is fun and reinforcing to the dog because it burns his predatory gasoline and elicits nice shrieks from the prey objects. Mom first tries saying 'No' in a firm tone of voice but the dog quickly habituates to this sound and there is no impact on the behavior. She may as well be saying 'Harder! Rougher!' in a firm tone of voice. Dad, the first time he sees the dog do this, picks the dog's entire front end off the ground by the scruff of the dog's neck, growls into the dog's face 'NO!" and gives the dog a nasty backfist under the chin. The dog slinks off to mull this over. He doesn't mouth the kids for several days but then the behavior, like a phoenix, rises from the ashes. It had only been stunned by Dad's well--timed, highly aversive punishment. What is the dog's likely course of action now? Right. Never mouth the kids when dad's around. The dog now mouths the kids during the day when it's safe and refrains in the evening when it's dangerous. *No substitute behavior has been trained in to fill the gap, so the original one emerges whenever it's safe. *Now for the side effect. The dog also is more worried and appeasing around Dad and is slightly afraid of his hands, especially when they move in a certain way. And this from one trail.

The classical side effects of aversives are enough to keep me away from them....Side effects are a good bet even if the timing of the punishment is perfect...Side effect likelihood goes off the charts if the timing is poor."


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## dhogan17 (Oct 30, 2012)

Thanks everybody for their perspectives....we will surely incorporate them into how we deal with Lando moving forward!

In the last few days other issues have taken high priority, such as the binder clip Lando decided to injest yesterday morning... But I will leave that for another thread!

DjH


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

dhogan17 said:


> Thanks everybody for their perspectives....we will surely incorporate them into how we deal with Lando moving forward!
> 
> In the last few days other issues have taken high priority, such as* the binder clip Lando decided to injest yesterday morning.*.. But I will leave that for another thread!


You better believe I'll stayed tuned looking for that update! Good luck with everything.:clover:


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