# What Do I Test For?



## Caniche (Jun 10, 2013)

This is from a previous post in the "Poodle Food" section but I wanted to expand on it:

"Ryker (4 year old, 7 lb toy poodle) has always been a picky eater. He's recently (in the last week) gotten a lot worse. I soften his kibble (Turkey & Potato by Wellness Simple), cook him ground turkey/ground beef, sweet potatoes/carrots/cottage cheese/yogurt/peas/green beans (won't touch any of it). Before I could get him to eat all his protein and part of his kibble if I sat down and hand fed it to him. Now he won't even eat then.

He's underweight and shakes all the time - but my current vet at the practice will not offer any solutions unless he starts losing weight. 

I've tried to put his food in treat balls, used canned food, Nutra-Cal, appetite sprays, exercised him vigorously first....all to no avail.

He was on prednisone last May for his cataract surgery. He ate like he was hungry while on the steroids. He also had more energy, seemed happier (wanted to play more, wagged his tail more, had more pep). Obviously we can't keep him on prednisone forever, but I did notice that he seemed "happier" when he was eating regularly and a full portion. 

Earlier this week he did wake me up twice in the middle of the night with a bout of diarrhea, but that seemed to pass within a day. (Note: He now has it back, on and off)

So now I'm wondering...do I take him to a different vet? Do I try a different dog food (we've been through a lot already) like Bil - Jac? I know that's not a great brand and I hate to put him back on grains, but Bil - Jac is supposed to work wonders on dogs with no appetite and little weight. 

Any help? Suggestions? He's also on famotidine twice a day for acid reflux."

So here's my "addition" to this regular post. After some GREAT comments, I've decided that I am going to demand that he get tested for Addison's. My current veterinarian would not test him when I inquired about it because he was not "lethargic enough." But now I've done more research and discovered a dog can have Addison's without being in an Addisonian Crisis.

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas/suggestions for other tests I could ask for that would explain his symptoms. I'm not doing Munchasen by Proxy, I swear! And I do not want to put him through unnecessary tests - but I just look at him and I swear that he's telling me that something isn't right. I know, I know, I sound crazy.

Also, his father was diagnosed at around 8 years old with Inflammatory Bowel Disease. His breeder told me that his dad had a 102 degree fever and was so sick he almost died. Between that information and Ryker's inherited cataracts, I have it pretty well figured out that he wasn't bred from the healthiest of parents. 

I am a dog groomer, so I know he's worm and flea free. 

Any and all comments and suggestions would be helpful. I'm not asking anyone to play the part of my vet - and obviously medical advice is the most important factor, but we all have experiences from our dogs that help each other.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Honestly I would find another vet that will listen to you and your concerns.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Of the 5 dogs that I've had, two had eating problems. One was a mixed breed from the humane society and the other was a PWD. After trying different things, my vet was guessing that the mixed breed had a form of IBD. She prescribed 2.5 mg of Prednisone (a low dose) every other day with the idea that skipping days would not totally suppress the dog's own body from producing cortisone. The only way to determine if it was IBD was to take a biopsy and we did not want to put the dog through that if we didn't have to. So from about 5 years to 13 years, the mixed breed took a little prednisone every other day and that kept her digestive woes manageable.

Our other dog, as I mentioned in your other thread, was a PWD that had Addison's. He was diagnosed after going into a definite Addisonian crisis, which is what happens when the dog's electrocites (sodium & potassium) are so off, that the dog drinks and drinks but urinates it all immediately so that the fluid level in the dog's body drops and drops which lowers the blood pressure and basically the body's organs are not getting any blood. When I finally took my dog to the vet hospital he was within hours of being too critical to live. I remember seeing Dasher drink water that week when he would not eat, thinking well, at least his kidneys are working. I didn't realize that he was not retaining the water, but urinating it all out.

I have often wondered if they could have diagnosed it before it got so bad. I think I would certainly get a dog tested for it if the symptoms were similar to what my dog Dasher had. We have the University of Illinois vet school here and that is where this type of testing is done.

I think you should consider a different vet, one who is more supportive of your efforts to diagnose Riker's problem. She may very well not be able to test for Addison's herself, but she should help you find a way to do that, if for no other reason but to eliminate the possibility.

If Riker has IBD, you might want to talk about giving prednisone every other day on a trial basis as we did our mixed breed. We did not have a confirmed diagnosis but the response to the medication seemed to indicate IBD was the problem. She did live a long time with just a little prednisone every other day. Occasionally she would get an upset tummy during the night and we would give her somethig to settle her stomach, but for the most part she did well. But if we tried to stop the prednisone, she would stop eating. It was as simple as that.

It is not easy to look for a new vet when you are in most part happy with the one you have, but if you don't feel you are getting the support you need, it might be something to consider.


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## Caniche (Jun 10, 2013)

I love the vet practice I go to - there are four veterinarians in the office I go to. I typically see one of the women who is very personable - but doesn't always take my concerns seriously. (for example, Ryker was jumping off my bed and then holding his neck/back weird. I'm convinced he has a slipped disk or injury of some sort. She claims he had a seizure and fell off the bed. I know he didn't because I watched him jump off the bed). Another vet in the practice is very thorough and seems more knowledgable, but doesn't remember anything about me or my dogs even though we saw him weeks earlier.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

No vet is perfect and there are times we will not agree about what the dogs need, but the vets I see now (there are 2 of them) know that if I want additional testing to either identify or eliminate a possible problem, if I am willing to pay for it, I expect their help in getting the testing done. They have no problem with that. They just give me the odds on whether the testing will provide any good information, positive or negative, in how we treat the dog. 

I think my current 13 yo PWD has a problem with arthritis in her back or even maybe something more major with her spine. Her hind legs are not working right and the vet could tell that upon a physical examination. I asked what we would do if it was arthritis or something else, and she said treat it for inflammation with rimadyl, which is what we were already doing. We decided to up the dosage and not do the tests because of the age of my dog and it probably would not give us enough useful information.

Can your vet recommend a specialist to examine your dog? Is there a university around with a vet school that you can consult? There should still be options for diagnosing your dog. 

Have you discussed IBD with your vet as to how to diagnose and perhaps, you can suggest a trial run for prednisone. 

Keep the conversation going with your vet if you want to stay there. Let them know they need to help you, not just dismiss your concerns.

PS - My vets review my dog's chart before she comes into the room to discuss his issues with me. I wouldn't expect them to remember everything but they should refresh their memory when they know you are scheduling an appointment because of a particular issue. If they actually don't remember ANYTHING about you and your dog, that would not sit well with me.


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## Caniche (Jun 10, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> No vet is perfect and there are times we will not agree about what the dogs need, but the vets I see now (there are 2 of them) know that if I want additional testing to either identify or eliminate a possible problem, if I am willing to pay for it, I expect their help in getting the testing done. They have no problem with that. They just give me the odds on whether the testing will provide any good information, positive or negative, in how we treat the dog.
> 
> I think my current 13 yo PWD has a problem with arthritis in her back or even maybe something more major with her spine. Her hind legs are not working right and the vet could tell that upon a physical examination. I asked what we would do if it was arthritis or something else, and she said treat it for inflammation with rimadyl, which is what we were already doing. We decided to up the dosage and not do the tests because of the age of my dog and it probably would not give us enough useful information.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info. Ryker has gone another day without eating. I have a vet appointment scheduled for him tomorrow at 4:45 EST. Our vet can test for Addison's and I think I'm going to ask for a full blood panel. 

I rather do whatever tests (within reason) are necessary than putting him on a medication without knowing what's wrong. I don't want to ignore or mask something serious with drugs - mostly because his symptoms point to many kinds of illnesses (unlike your PWD's lameness and soreness, which would make sense it being a spinal injury). 

I live in a small town and my family has been seeing the same vet office since 1992. Still, I completely realize that not every vet can remember every dog and every client. This particular vet though has seen both of my dogs as puppies and has seen them for checkups regularly. He also did X-rays of Cash as an emergency when he leapt from my arms as a puppy. But every time I see this vet he introduces himself and acts like I've never owned dogs before and I have no idea what I'm doing. He also talks like it's our first day at the clinic. I'm okay with this if he can get to the bottom of Ryker's problems, but it's still a little frustrating.


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## Caniche (Jun 10, 2013)

UPDATE: Ryker was seen at the veterinarian. The vet has decided to test for Addison's. We've also decided to run a complete blood panel, a GI Profile, a urine analysis and a fecal test. The vet also suspects IBD. I should know some of the results this afternoon.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

finger crossed that you get this sorted out


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

It sounds to me as though he has IBD. I would keep ACTH Stim test for AD in my mind, but if it were me I probably wouldn't test for that yet.

What I might want to do is see if your vet wants to go ahead and treat him for IBD (btw - prednisone is s common treatment I believe). The only way to definitively diagnose IBD is through a GI biopsy. Most vets will instead recommend starting treatment for IBD right away withiut the biopsy since it's so invasive. You could also do Dr. Dodd's nutriscan food sensitivity test which will check for food sensitivities that can cause a dog to present with IBD symptoms due to adverse reaction to food.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I think they have already scheduled AD test. I was considering Dr Dodd's food test but read on her website that sensitivities change and dog should be retested every year or so. Would be ok but these tests are not cheap. At least they are not invasive.

A GI biopsy sounds a little scarey. An AD test seems less invasive. So I would so that first.

I think Ryker is getting testing done today.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Ah didn't see that. Yes, AD test is expensive but it won't hurt. Re: Nutriscan - I don't think you really need to repeat it in most cases...I've talked with Dr. Dodds about the test. I really think that if you have a dog who is having GI problems, testing for food sensitivities is a good idea.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Ah didn't see that. Yes, AD test is expensive but it won't hurt. Re: Nutriscan - I don't think you really need to repeat it in most cases...I've talked with Dr. Dodds about the test. I really think that if you have a dog who is having GI problems, testing for food sensitivities is a good idea.


I agree about the food testing. When I had my mixed breed dog with GI problem years ago, I didn't know about those tests or maybe they didn't even exist then. But I would certainly consider food sensitivity testing before having a GI biopsy in case just changing the food was enough to fix the GI problems.


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## Caniche (Jun 10, 2013)

UPDATE: So *some* of Ryker's test results came back (they vet called me from home on his day off - so that made me feel good). Everything came back normal - no Addison's, all his levels were normal. So this means we're leaning towards IBD. We're going to wait until his urine, fecal and rest of his bloodwork come back on Monday before we go ahead with treatment. The vet does not want to do an invasive GI test (nor do I). 

If it is IBD, we will treat with a low-dose of prednisone and he recommended a Hypoallergenic diet. He is currently on Wellness Simple Turkey & Potato. We can't have chicken in the house because Cash is intolerant to chicken. Also, we've tried salmon/fish/seafood flavored food - none of our dogs will touch it. 

Any suggestions for a hypoallergenic dry dog food?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

My opinion is do not give steroids unless it is life and death.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

And why do you want to feed dry food? A moist food is much easier to digest.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Caniche said:


> UPDATE: So *some* of Ryker's test results came back (they vet called me from home on his day off - so that made me feel good). Everything came back normal - no Addison's, all his levels were normal. So this means we're leaning towards IBD. We're going to wait until his urine, fecal and rest of his bloodwork come back on Monday before we go ahead with treatment. The vet does not want to do an invasive GI test (nor do I).
> 
> If it is IBD, we will treat with a low-dose of prednisone and he recommended a Hypoallergenic diet. He is currently on Wellness Simple Turkey & Potato. We can't have chicken in the house because Cash is intolerant to chicken. Also, we've tried salmon/fish/seafood flavored food - none of our dogs will touch it.
> Any suggestions for a hypoallergenic dry dog food?


The only way to know what diet will not cause an adverse reaction for YOUR dog is to 1) do a food trial or, 2) do the NutriScan test. What is hypoallergenic for your dog might not be hypoallergenic for someone else's dog.

Because prednisone has serious side effects, I'd want to rule out adverse reaction to food first. Generally steroids are not used until a food trial has been tried and failed, and antibiotics (Tylan or Metronidazole) have also failed.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Good news about Ryker not having AD. Why do you want to feed dry food, which is the most processed type of food, although it is easy to store and less expensive than canned. Testing for food sensitivities is a good idea. Otherwise, home cooking or canned food with limited ingredients might be the easiest type of food for Ryker to digest.

You could also try digestive enzymes like Prozyme to help him digest whichever type of food you use.

If Ryker is not eating, I think a low dose of prednisone could help get his IBD under control. It could be a temporary measure to reduce the inflammation. The important thing is to get him eating and healthy.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

You might also look into microvascular dysplasia...symtoms sound similar. I hope you get to the bottom of it!


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## Caniche (Jun 10, 2013)

Admittedly, I'm a little disheartened by the "don't give steroids" and "why kibble" tone that this has come to. So, for steroids....

If Ryker has IBD it can be calmed by low-dose prednisone. From my understanding so far, this would most likely be given every other day. Ryker is underweight, sleeps all the time, won't eat, wakes up in the middle of the night shaking so hard from diarrhea, always cold and always shaking. If a low dose steroid gives him an appetite, some groceries, the light back in his eyes and a calmer bowel - I'll take it. 

2) The hypoallergenic diet, from my understanding, isn't for food intolerances but more for digestibility. I'd love to give him prozyme, which I bought, but first I have to get him to eat it - which will only be accomplished by prednisone. I do make a largely home-cooked meal -
Veggies, sweet potato and boiled beef or turkey - but supplement with kibble. I would give him wet canned food but it seems to make his diarrhea worse. I soften the kibble so it's easier to digest and more palatable. 

I'll know more from the tests on Monday. Thanks for the supportive input.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

If what he needs is an easily digestible diet, and not a hypoallergenic diet, Hills ID is the gold standard. It is my understanding that food allergies or food intolerances can actually *cause* IBD, though, so I would not rule out the possible therapeutic effect of feeding a protein source that your dog is not reactive to.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I am sorry if I sounded harsh, I didn't want to go into it, but Taylee was diagnosed with IBD before she passed, she was put on steroids and less than a week later she had pancreatitis which ultimately lead to her demise. Of course she was 13 years old, so Ryker can probably tolerate it better than she did, but I just see red whenever 
I hear the word steroids - Taylee was not dying from IBD, but the steroid to treat it killed her :-( because of my experience, steroids would be the absolute last thing that I would try.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

My mixed breed who was diagnosed with probable IBD (we did not do a biopsy) HAD to take a low dose of prednisone every other day. It was not an option. She would not eat if we stopped giving her the prednisone. She was about 6 years when she started taking pred and lived to 13-1/2 years and had a good life. Keeping the fat content low in the food and giving a digestive enzyme like Prozyme can help prevent or manage chronic pancreatitis. If she were alive today, I believe I would have her tested for food sensitivity or at least use an elimination diet, but while I was doing that, I would still give her the prednisone to keep her eating.

No one wants to give their dog prednisone but I thank God it is there to help out when you really need it. Once Ryker is eating well, then there is time to experiment with food choices.

I now have a dog with skin problems who is better if I do not feed her chicken or beef. I have her on Natural Balance Rabbit & Brown Rice formula, mostly the canned food, but I use the Potato & Rabbit kibble as her treats. Sometimes I switch out her canned food with another limited ingredient like Natural Choice Fish & Potato. 

This summer my younger dog had very loose stools and we tried everything, including probiotics and antibiotics, which did not help her. So I started home cooking and tried to add some canned food. I did not want to use Hills ID food, but strangely enough, ID really helped firm up her stools. ID food is supposed to be easy to digest and it really does seem to help her, but no one can explain to me exactly what about it makes it more digestible. In any event, she is stable now so I don't want to mess with what works, but I hope to eventually find a different canned food than ID. She also gets Potato & Rabbit kibble as reward treats but she can't tolerate too much kibble. Her stools get looser if I feed her too much kibble. Every dog is different in what they can tolerate.

Good luck with Ryker. I hope he starts eating well soon.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Caniche, I know sweet potatoes are wonderfully healthful, and I know I'm not a dog (other than possibly idiomatically  ), and I absolutely love them. But when I eat them even though I'm used to lots of fiber, I do get some digestive distress. Granted, I have chronic digestive issues anyway (sorry, TMI), but sweet potatoes very oddly aggravate them.

Just wondering... I guess this is the worst sort of anthropomorphism, but just wondering...

Good luck; I am so sorry you all are having this awful and extended mystery.


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## villavilla (Jul 30, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> I think my current 13 yo PWD has a problem with arthritis in her back or even maybe something more major with her spine. Her hind legs are not working right and the vet could tell that upon a physical examination. I asked what we would do if it was arthritis or something else, and she said treat it for inflammation with rimadyl, which is what we were already doing. We decided to up the dosage and not do the tests because of the age of my dog and it probably would not give us enough useful information.


This is a bit OT but have you MiniPoo tried giving your old PWD B-vitamins? Our 13 yo spoo Hessu has also had problems with his hind legs but since I have given him B-vitamins regularly now for about 2 weeks he is and moves much better! B-vitamins are good for neurosystem and as I have heard when talking with several dog owners problems in that are common for older dogs.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

villavilla said:


> This is a bit OT but have you MiniPoo tried giving your old PWD B-vitamins? Our 13 yo spoo Hessu has also had problems with his hind legs but since I have given him B-vitamins regularly now for about 2 weeks he is and moves much better! B-vitamins are good for neurosystem and as I have heard when talking with several dog owners problems in that are common for older dogs.


You are right, Villa Villa, I should be giving Phoenix, my PWD, B-complex. My vet recommended B-complex and vitamin E in addition to the Rimadyl, Dasuquin, and multivitamin I already give her. I have gotten lax lately because of the holidays and have left off the B and E for the past month. I just added it to her weekly pill container. Thanks for the reminder!


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