# i made a huge training mistake.... help?



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Is this the first time you are brushing him? What about bathing, etc?

It would be helpful to have another pair of hands or at least a grooming arm with a noose you can loop around his neck. 

Are you putting him up on a table or trying to groom him on the floor?

I hope that FJM pops by because I seem to recall that she had some good advice about conditioning the puppy to brushing/grooming. It will be better to do short sessions, 5 minutes, and brush one section of the coat at a time while praising and giving treats, then giving the dog a break and trying another section later, until the dog is brushed all over.

It is good of you to fix this issue now since poodles need a lifetime of regular grooming.


----------



## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

It's definitely not too late! You can retrain your boy to like brushing. Start by just having the brush with you on the table, and treat him with something yummy (I like to use something special when I'm doing grooming training, such as cheese or lunchmeat...my Lhasa will even sit still for nail grinding when I use that stuff!) when he stands still. Do that for a while until he doesn't react at all to the presence of the brush and is quietly waiting for more treats. Then pick the brush up, repeat the treating for standing still until he is again comfortable. Then start by just touching him with the brush on a non-sensitive part of him, like his back leg (most dogs don't mind their back legs being brushed). Treat only when he behaves. Once he's comfortable with that, move on to doing one stroke, treat. Slowly introduce more strokes and different body parts, again only treating when he's standing still. I would recommend just doing these exercises for _maybe_ 5 minutes at a time, several times a day. Less time if you can tell he's starting to get antsy. Basically, don't go past his comfort level. When I'm retraining something like brushing, nail trimming, etc., I go until I can tell the dog is _almost_ ready to get impatient and move, then I stop and treat. That way, it's pretty easy to stretch their comfort level farther and farther. Also, don't try brushing out any mats for a good long time...let him have lots and lots of good associations with the brush. I would just go ahead and clip out the mats this time. That little bit of hair won't be worth the struggle. Since he's probably going through his coat change, it might be a good idea to simply clip him shorter. That way, there are no bad associations with the brush and it will be easier for you to retrain him that way as you won't have to deal with long hair. You can concentrate on retraining. HTH! 

P.S. Definitely don't muzzle him...that will only escalate his behavior. Muzzles are a last resort...since Sprout is still a puppy and very trainable, he doesn't need that.


----------



## lrkellly (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks PaddleAddict,

I have been brushing him every day, but not _fully_ brushing him. He lets me brush his back and part of his belly but its getting harder now. I brush his legs once or twice a week when my partner and I can do it together. We have been doing this on the floor, but maybe I should put him up on a table. I'm also afraid that brushing out the tangles is hurting his skin...

He is easy to bathe and he tolerates being clipped to some degree, although I haven't had a long clip session with him yet.

I've been looking for conditioning sprays but our local pet stores don't seem to carry them. However, one is bringing in mink oil spray next week so I might give that a try.


----------



## lrkellly (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks so much mom24doggies,

These sound like excellent strategies, I will definitely give them a try. I would just love to be able to give him a complete brush as we're lounging on the couch. That would be my dream. I will work with him on the table slowly with that dream in mind!

I guess I should schedule a date with the groomer.. according to her, he's great to groom... so it must have be me who trained him to mis-behave _with me
_

Thanks for your help..  :adore:


----------



## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

lrkellly said:


> Thanks so much mom24doggies,
> 
> These sound like excellent strategies, I will definitely give them a try. I would just love to be able to give him a complete brush as we're lounging on the couch. That would be my dream. I will work with him on the table slowly with that dream in mind!
> 
> ...


 A lot of dogs "act out" when their mom or dad tries to groom them...you have no idea how many times I hear "did he give you trouble when you brushed him?", and many times I answer no. I would definitely table train Sprout first, then you can move to a lap on the couch.  A lot of dogs behave much better when on a table anyway, it seems to remove some of their confidence and takes them out of their comfort zone, so they stand still.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Completely agree with Mom24 - and recognise that if he is a bit tangled it may hurt a bit no matter how careful you are, so you need super good treats to make up for it! Lots of 2 - 3 minute sessions, ending on a good note, are more likely to be successful than trying to push on until you are both hot and cross and ready to bite each other.


----------



## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I'm STILL training Maddy, just because she's such a wiggle worm. I use treats and don't spend too much time grooming at a time to make it bearable for her. Never too late; just think, some people adopt rescues who have never been brushed in their lives and THEY learn to love it, so Sprout will adjust.


----------



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I agree with others it is not to late. I would without fail get your dog off the floor & on a table with noose. If you need a noose for the hind end as well then that is fine. You can just start over & only brush/comb 1 leg, with treats, end session on a good note. If he gets to snapping then either you have gone to long in your grooming session or your poodle is trying to see how much he/she can get away with & have you stop. If you stop while the snapping is going on then your dog won & this behavior will be repeated. Just go back to an area that your dog won't snap at, praise & end session. End positively no matter how small or short the session is. I groom all my dogs on the table & sometimes just to put them on there, treat, touch body parts & then end session. I think Rens is in Canada that lots of groomers get their products from.


----------



## lrkellly (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks everyone . We're moving slowly with treats on the table and a bit of brushing, trying to make things positive. Meanwhile I'm waiting to get into a groomer to clean him up so I can start from scratch.

I would love to get a grooming table with an arm/noose but I live in a small place and wouldn't have room for it really. Is there such a thing as an arm that will attach to any table, without damaging it? The only table I really have that I can use is our kitchen table which is thick chestnut wood....

I think a noose would make a huge difference. Perhaps I will have to splurge on a folding table.

Thanks again for your help and very useful advice


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I got an adjustable height folding table, complete with arm, for not that much more than I would have paid for the arm. The table is a little bulky, but being able to get it high enough makes SUCH a difference to my back it is a small price to pay! And with a cloth thrown over it makes an extra serving/dining table, too.


----------



## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

mom24doggies said:


> It's definitely not too late!


I wanted to quote everything you said (cause it is sooo helpful) but it would be too long of a post!

My Lou is 5.5 months old I started brushing her a few times, she thinks its play time and tried to luv-bite the brush and jumps around and sometimes walks away a bit when i try to brush somewhere she cant see. I was able to brush 85% of her body without any treats which I consider a success!! But now... Im going to try with treats and Im sure it will be awesome! She doesnt hate it, she doesnt really "get it", she is too smart, tries to _understand everything _and gets puzzled...LOL

Thank you very much for taking the time to type the step-by-step instructions!!

*OH! PS. HOW OFTEN TO BRUSH TO AVOID MATS? IF YOU WANT TO KEEP THE HAIR REAL LONG AND AU-NATURAL LIKE THE PICTURE ON MY SIGNATURE?*


----------



## flyingpoodle (Feb 5, 2012)

Thanks to mom24doggies! She said everything super well!

My 5 month old spoo will tolerate about 3 brush strokes if we are on the floor, or about 10 minutes on a table. We were having a hard time with clippers but using clicker training helped on that, we do clicker training for most everything else, and it took me a long time to figure out that I could step on the clicker to click, because I certainly did not have enough hands to do it. I would click and feed a treat when she held still while I was clipping, and gradually increased the amount of time that she held still. It worked so much better! She seemed happy have a familiar framework, to understand what I wanted better. The advantage of the clicker is that I could click with the clippers running on her nose or paw, the treat a second later. 

In one session I went from about 2 seconds of contact at a time to being able to do half a foot without yanking. Wow! I love clicker training! So does pearl! I just wish I could go back and skip the dozen sessions of trying it without the clicker! 

Also, for detangling spray, I would look for a children's product, not a pet product. It should be pretty safe. My breeder (well, Pearls breeder) recommended Sea Plasma All Purpose Skin and Hair Moisturizer spray for a detangler and conditioner, I saw it on my hairdressers counter too! My hairdresser says it isn't thebest detangler though. I spray it on Pearl after baths, usually before drying.

Oh, and my grooming table is a very sturdy folding card table. No arm and grooming loop.


----------



## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

You're welcome Lou.  as far as how often, a thorough brush every other day is sufficient for most coat types. If your dog has a nice correct coat, even less is necessary. I brush my adult poodle about once a week with his bath. Other than that, spot brushing to remove burrs or grass or to brush in his moisturizing spray is all that is needed. Pretty much the same for my puppy too. I'm not sure what kind of coat your puppy has, but the general rule is the less texture a coat has the more brushing you have to do!


----------



## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

mom24doggies said:


> You're welcome Lou.  as far as how often, a thorough brush every other day is sufficient for most coat types. If your dog has a nice correct coat, even less is necessary. I brush my adult poodle about once a week with his bath. Other than that, spot brushing to remove burrs or grass or to brush in his moisturizing spray is all that is needed. Pretty much the same for my puppy too. I'm not sure what kind of coat your puppy has, but the general rule is the less texture a coat has the more brushing you have to do!


es 

Sorry, I feel stoopid... Im just new to spoos (hubby has had several, but this is my first one)

I dont understand the types of coats, she is 5.5 months old... her coat might change right? Im gonna post a few pictures here of her coat now. and her dads coat which im very confident her coat will be like his. he 

Notice the hair on the legs (last picture) is different from the hair on her body (second to last picture)

I will brush her often then, every other day or every 3 days .. make it something pleasurable for her and I, like a bonding moment with positive vibes and treats 

Also, I notice some spoos have REALLY SHINNY COATS with very defined color and some a really dull and almost grayish regardless of what color they are (if that makes any sense) and I've seen such gorgeous shinny coat colors, Id love her coat to shine like that
ANY PRODUCT SUGGESTIONS? 

thanks so much... this makes me happy!!


----------



## Lily's-Mom (May 31, 2012)

I use the washer/dryer in the laundry area for brushing Lily. I put a non-slip mat on top and it works out quite well. So this may be an option for you, especially in a small home. The only problem is there is no place to put a grooming arm if you did decide you needed one. I don't use a grooming arm, once I put Lily up on the dryer, she's pretty well behaved, although she doesn't care for her butt/tail area to be brushed. Interestingly, when I try to brush her while I am sitting on the couch or floor, she misbehaves every time!


----------



## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

I brush, brush, treat, brush, brush, treat. Some people will smear peanut butter on the table for the dog to lick or tie a Kong to the table and stuff it with peanut butter. 

And I also play calming music in the background, praise often, and massage when I brush. You could consider getting one of the Through A Dog's Ear cds. It really works.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

As a groomer, here is my suggestion... get him professional groomed, at least for a while. 90% of the dogs I see that try to pull crap with their owners are perfectly fine when it comes to grooming for me. A major frustration though, are owners who teach their dogs bad habits, and are much more difficult to deal with there after. The vast majority of dogs that come in for grooming are better for us, than their owners. They are out of their comfort zone, up on a table, and know they must behave... they usually know how to work it with Mom and Dad and will take advantage of you. So, as a groomer, I'd urge you to get him professionally groomed so that at least he has a positive association with grooming with a pro groomer who has the skills to do the process quickly with out hesitating, knowledge of acceptable behavior and how to correct it appropriately, foundation skills that he will need the rest of his life. Check out findagroomer.com it is associated with petgroomer.com (a forum where people go for extended education and has people who are good, knowledgeable groomers) that would be a great place to start looking for someone. Please don't go into petsmart or the cheapest place in town, they probably aren't the best fit for helping your dog. Also, I have a hunch that he is more matted than you'd think. Usually by the time people start noticing mats it is much more severe than they realize. After he gets his haircut, try to maintain the coat enough so that it doesn't reach the point of matting. Lightly mist some conditioner into the coat (my favorite is Stazko spray), line brush with a slicker brush (my favorite are Les Pooches purple, green, or silver to do the job), then go through the coat with a metal comb. Another suggestion would be to eventually find a groomer who would be willing to teach you these skills, and how to do a basic trim on your dog. Sorry if this is too much information, or seems rude, just trying to get the info out there!


----------



## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Could you go more in depth of how groomers usually correct unacceptable behavior? 

I'm searching for a pro to do my dogs and am curious. Thanks.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

Just my opinion, but most owners that come into our shop totally let their dogs take advantage of them. They overly baby them. The owners are inexperienced in grooming procedures and not confident with their skills or whatever it is they are trying to accomplish, resulting in the process taking twice as long as if a groomer did it, and most likely with them maneuvering dogs in odd positions, making the process less desirable for the dog. I can't tell you how many customers I get in that are SCARED of their own dog. I'll feel over the dog at check in, try and show them mats on the back end and they'll reaaaaach all the way barely touching the dog because they're scared the dog will bite them... no wonder those mats got there. It may start with the dog generally not liking brushing, so they stop. Then the dog may step the situation up since it worked in the past, and start to snap, so they stop. Sometimes the husband tries to take charge and overly correct the dog, great, now there's fear issues!! Owners don't handle feet enough, majority of the dogs that are "home groom" type are very difficult about having their feet handled. Basically, I've found that the DIY people miss things or don't train their dogs properly. They're scared to do nails, they're scared to do sanitarys, they let the dogs be too wiggly, which can be dangerous. 
As far as correcting behavior goes, having the dog up on the table, with a grooming loop attached at an appropriate height does a lot in itself. The less freedom they have, the less likely accidents can happen, and the quicker the process goes. Knowing when to correct a dog, timing is everything. I use a simple "AH-AH". Making sure you are lifting legs in correct motions so that it is not uncomfortable. Treats when they are good. Having a second person on hand to help hold or distract the dog with head pats, there's all sorts of tricks to the trade.


----------



## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

> Knowing when to correct a dog, timing is everything. I use a simple "AH-AH".


That's it? That's not bad at all. Why aren't you located near me?!

I was doing more groomer shopping today (calling around) and one of the things I was concerned about was how my dogs might be treated. I was told that the dog "needs to be shown who's boss" and that "yelling at dogs is like dogs barking at each other" (so apparently, it's okay), and more of that kind of stuff. Sigh. 

I understand and respect that a dog has to be kept still for their own safety and also the groomer's safety. In fact, I insist that any dog on a table needs to be in a loop and have a hand on them at all times (so they don't jump or fall off and get injured or even killed). I understand that you have to be firm to keep them still and in position. But that's different from bullying and manhanding. I took the time to counter condition and desensitize my dogs to being groomed and I don't want to make a stressful situation (they're never going to be fans of it) even worse for them.


----------



## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

brownlikewoah said:


> J
> Knowing when to correct a dog, timing is everything. I use a simple "AH-AH".


I loved it when i started using a *FIRM/KINDA LOUD : "AH-AH!"*, it works for us....

I say that, sometimes when she is about to do something wrong, like put her mouth on my shoe (not chewing yet) it gets her attention! *she immediately looks at me, and sometimes i say a "NO!" right after to make sure she gets it.*


it works  but, *i have to stay consistent, and say it e-v-e-r-y time* she puts her mouth or nose on the shoe. or ya know... anything I dont want her to do....

good thing I obsess on things... hahahhahaha "ocd"


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

Yeah, unfortunately there are good and bad people in every profession. I wish I could say there weren't any shops in my town I wouldn't want to leave my own dogs at, but sadly that's not the case. When looking for a groomer I would try the findagroomer page, call around and see who does grooming competitions. That's a good sign that the people are passionate about what they do. See how long the groomers have been grooming. You can ask if they have any certification (not needed in the industry). Go to the shops first without your dog and see what the place is like, dust everywhere? Hair everywhere? Dogs completely freaked out?


----------



## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

brownlikewoah said:


> Yeah, unfortunately there are good and bad people in every profession. I wish I could say there weren't any shops in my town I wouldn't want to leave my own dogs at, but sadly that's not the case. When looking for a groomer I would try the findagroomer page, call around and see who does grooming competitions. That's a good sign that the people are passionate about what they do. See how long the groomers have been grooming. You can ask if they have any certification (not needed in the industry). Go to the shops first without your dog and see what the place is like, dust everywhere? Hair everywhere? Dogs completely freaked out?


I went to a place a block from my place... i heard dogs yelping like crazy, never heard a dog cry like that.... sounded like their were being beat up (im sure they werent but..) anywas... i brought a flyer from this place home.. Lou (my poodle) sniffed it and toof off away from it, with her tail in between her legs.. SHE HATED THE FLYER... it was the freakiest thing! Like she was scared ... ive had other papers/flyers near her she never cared.... I think she could sense something - i looked the place up online, and the reviews said bad things, one lady said she saw a groomer slap a dog in the face!!! :-o its a block from me...and its a vet hospital as well... i will never take my dog to be groomed there, but if we have a life threatening situation I guess I'd take her there to save her life... but...


----------



## cindyreef (Sep 28, 2012)

Im in the same situation...looking for a first groomer until I can do it myself  might be a while before I learn but I know where not to go.....At our biggest animal hospital here, they have a grooming business in the same building. I realize some dogs can be yappy, but there are ways to calm them down. I was bringing my dog in for shots at the vet when I heard the grooming "lady" upstairs screaming very loud "SHUT UP, GOD JUST SHUT THE ----- UP". 
Imagine how this would affect the dog she was working on? She wont get her hands on my baby thats for sure..


----------



## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

A dog getting slapped in the face at a grooming shop isn't the worst I've seen or heard of, unfortunately. 

If you can find a groomer that you can trust and your dog likes, don't let them get away!

I can't so I'm taking grooming lessons from a certified, 20 year experienced, professional groomer anytime now and then lessons from another professional, experienced groomer this winter.

People don't realize how harmful yelling and even just spraying with a jet of water can be to dogs. One of my dogs has an anxiety disorder and Canine Compulsive Disorder. Her obsessive behaviors get worse with stress. So being intimidated and physically punished would just be wonderful for this sensitive, neurotic dog! She tolerates being misted when it's hot and for fluff drying but not for corrective purposes. Same with my other dog (enjoying a nice, cool mist). My other dog I don't want being intimidated or physically punished either. They're my dogs and it's my choice so I'm not okay with some one else doing these things to my dogs.


----------



## Presley (Oct 28, 2012)

Presley hate beeing groomed, because of the tangles is hurting him. I use a poodle comp, since the carding hurted too much. I do it while he is relaxed, and only so much he can handle, since he has bit me a few times (totaly my foulth).
But when i get my mony I will bye som tangle remover to help him, on the tummy he likes to be brushed, but where it can hurt he sits on guard waiting to bite when it hurts.
My dog is 2,5 years old and have to be learned to be brushed, so its apsolutley not too late, just a bit harder.


----------



## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Try using corn starch on his tangles.


----------



## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

Before I had my grooming table I had my counter top, Dh's work table (he cuts wood on it, or a desk. Any of those work. Some people use wood on top of a kennel. 

Petedge has grooming arms or you can one off of ebay. As long as the table isn't too thick you should be able to attach it without a problem. Before I had a grooming arm I tied a leash to the kitchen cabinets. 

I made the mistake in not training Sandy to let me brush her on the floor (she thinks its a game) so now I'm working on that.


----------

