# Merle?????



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Not too long ago there was a big thread about merle poodles. Take a look:

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/52985-not-cause-argument.html

--Q


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

huh, I'm at a loss to understand how a dominant gene just randomly 'appears' in a non merle breed. (note sarcasm font lol) Although, I've heard that arguement before. 

*shaking my head*


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

No, not legit. Merle is not naturally occurring in the breed so another breed would need to have been bred to a poodle to introduce the dominant gene.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

op:


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

On the page posted, it says the puppy is AKC registered. I thought this was impossible??


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I believe that they can be registered but they can not be shown in conformation. They can compete in non Confirmation events.

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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

pandj said:


> I believe that they can be registered but they can not be shown in conformation. They can compete in non Confirmation events.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Thank you PANDJ, I knew that to be true with the partis but I did not know it was also true with Merle


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

N2Mischief said:


> Thank you PANDJ, I knew that to be true with the partis but I did not know it was also true with Merle


Well I don't think they can be registered as "Merle."


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

https://www.akc.org/registration/colormarkings.cfm

plug in poodle where it says select breed and the accepted colors for registration are displayed. merle is not an option so i wonder what the actual description of this dog is on his papers if he is akc registered? this gets stranger and stranger...


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Yep, I just did a little checking AK C doesn't register Merle.... 

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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Bet his color is registered under 'black & blue' since that is a registerable color, AND is in his name!!!!!
Question:
Can the DNA really truly be absent of another breed as she is suggesting on her site? Wouldn't it appear 'somewhere'(the contributing breed)???
Very suspicious!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

well one good thing about the akc registration claim is that you have an idea of how much faith to place in the breeder and the owner.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

I hear Merle has tons of health issues, blindness deaf etc... But I have to admit under the "looks" category ALONE every single dog on that first page is absolutely stunning, beautiful. But beauty definitely does not come first in my opinion. Health and temperament are vital 

Curious to hear more opinions and even facts if there are some reputable study on it


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Lou said:


> I hear Merle has tons of health issues, blindness deaf etc... But I have to admit under the "looks" category ALONE every single dog on that first page is absolutely stunning, beautiful. But beauty definitely does not come first in my opinion. Health and temperament are vital
> 
> Curious to hear more opinions and even facts if there are some reputable study on it



Sorry about my awful English ... When I'm tired my English goes to sleep before me


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

lou, go to the link posted by quossum in #2, above. pretty informative.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

patk said:


> lou, go to the link posted by quossum in #2, above. pretty informative.



Thanks patk, but for whatever reason it won't load.. (?)

I'm curious now. I kinda vaguely remember that thread


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

it was started by caniche in july of last year. maybe if you go to caniche's profile page and look for all threads started by her...


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

patk said:


> it was started by caniche in july of last year. maybe if you go to caniche's profile page and look for all threads started by her...



I'll find it  just not tonight Hehehehe hopefully I'll get some zzzzzzzzz's here soon  I'm curious though but too tired ..... (Yawn)


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

If a dog is! a poodle it is! a poodle. If it is not a poodle it is NOT a poodle.
The introduction of genes from other breeds may well produce an interesting dog. It may well produce a "better' dog. But is that dog a poodle!!! Mixed breeds of various dogs have been around since the time dogs first began to live with humans. Some have now begun to breed true. Some have health problems that aficionados will ignore because they love their breed of dog. I have often wondered how humans might have worked out if they had been "line bred" to produce interesting cross breeds. To be a purist one would say that wolves and other primary dogs are the only real breeds. To go the other way one might say that the labradoodle is fast becoming a breed itself???. Me, I like the standard poodle. It has been around since about 1100 AD. It will breed true. It has few health problems. Its personality and temperament are famous and need no description here. I respect the rights of others to have a labradoodle or any other doodle; BUT I am highly critical of the effect the Labrador genes have had on "most" doodles. Hip displasior and cancerous problems are seen to be highly exacerbated in the labradoodle. Many dogs die or are put down before 10 years of age. Other doodles have other problems. I feel sure some crosses are not only a success but an improvement. Will those crosses breed true. will a new and superior breed emerge. This I think is not very likely but also not impossible. Look at what a few hundred years of selective breeding has done to the convocation of breeds. Our beloved poodles are also the result of selective breeding over many years. But I like them how they are. (unless someone can breed a spoo without selective hearing!!!) (or maybe one with a set of voice chords to speak with)
Love to all Eric & Gracie


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## PoodleElements (Sep 20, 2014)

I did read that previous thread and it was very interesting. I didn't really think Merle Pooldes were possible... But I know Kit-Sue is apparently a well known reputable breeder so I was a little confused by the introduction of a Merle. I personally would like to see the DNA results... But you're right there is no way she could have registered it as Merle, it would have to be blue with black markings or something...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

MollyMuiMa said:


> Bet his color is registered under 'black & blue' since that is a registerable color, AND is in his name!!!!!
> Question:
> Can the DNA really truly be absent of another breed as she is suggesting on her site? Wouldn't it appear 'somewhere'(the contributing breed)???
> Very suspicious!


I believe so, if the cross was made a while back and bred back to poodles for several generations.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

PoodleElements said:


> I did read that previous thread and it was very interesting. I didn't really think Merle Pooldes were possible... But I know Kit-Sue is apparently a well known reputable breeder so I was a little confused by the introduction of a Merle. I personally would like to see the DNA results... But you're right there is no way she could have registered it as Merle, it would have to be blue with black markings or something...


Id check your facts on that one!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think I said this in the other thread last year too, but I don't get why someone who was a reputable poodle breeder would want to introduce the merle gene with all of its associated health problems into poodles. The only reason that seems plausible to me is to offer something unique to sell, which makes me question the reputation of the breeder. Since we know that merle doesn't occur in purebred poodles and this would be an extraordinary spontaneous mutation then I can't really look at this pup and see a "real" poodle.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

*ch for the myriad of health issues to present.*

This is all so sad. Trendy sells. People are going to buy these dogs and be so proud of their "Poodle" and we will wait and watch for the myriad of health issues to begin presenting themselves. I personally think they are hideous, but know because of comments I have seen that lots think they are cool. Can anyone say time bomb?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

PoodleElements said:


> But I know Kit-Sue is apparently a well known reputable breeder so I was a little confused by the introduction of a Merle.


I think you're just being polite, PE.  

There is no chance that any breeder of Merles would be considered a reputable Poodle breeder.


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

given all of the health issues that already exist in the Kit-Sue lines, the last thing she needs to be doing is trying to breed Merle


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

PoodleElements said:


> ...* But I know Kit-Sue is apparently a well known reputable breeder so I was a little confused by the introduction of a Merle. *...


You may wish to see this 2010 thread. http://www.poodleforum.com/16-poodl...ndpiper-kit-sue-kennels-please.html#post56164
http://www.poodleforum.com/16-poodl...ndpiper-kit-sue-kennels-please.html#post56166


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## Michaddison (Jan 17, 2014)

For what it's worth, my 11-month old girl is a merle. So far she is the picture of health, has beautiful proportions, is happy, energetic and social, and you couldn't ask for a better temperament. I didn't pick her for her "trendy" coloring. She was the only merle in the litter (I didn't even know what "merle" meant at the time) and I wasn't even originally interested in her (I was looking for a male), but she picked me and she was persistent in winning me over.

When I got her I knew next to nothing about poodles. I had no idea what colors poodles were "supposed to" come in, or about AKC/CKC registration, or about the "breed standard." I only knew I needed a purebred because of my severe allergies (even to poodle mixes), and the only thing I knew to look for in a breeder was "not a puppy mill." Compared with what I see some "reputable" breeders charge, my dog's breeder practically gave her away. That was great for me because as a PhD student, I wouldn't have been able to afford a "well-bred" poodle. 

I've learned a lot from this site and I can understand the "health" and "breed standard" concerns (as well as the problem of unwanted ill-bred poodles and mixes) that a lot of people have with merles (and/or with hobbyist breeders in general). These are very good points. But quite honestly, sometimes it can come across a bit too strong. My first few months on this site, I was leery to post photos or talk about my girl because, after reading some posts on these subjects, I thought I was supposed to be embarrassed for buying a "defective" poodle (especially with her partial blue eye) from a "backyard breeder." It's taken awhile, but I've gotten over feeling like me and my girl don't quite fit with the rest of poodle people, because the thing is, I am grateful to my dog's breeder for offering beautiful, healthy puppies at a price that even a poor grad student can afford, and I'm not embarrassed. She's a "real" poodle, even if she's a merle, and I don't believe her existence detracts from the quality of the breed. Well, that's my two cents anyway.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i'm no expert, but she doesn't look like a merle in that photo. maybe a side view of her standing would say different...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

She looks merle to me, patk.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a merle dog isn't going to have health problems simply because the dog is merle. However, there is the potential for very serious health issues when merle is bred to merle.

As far as the merle gene occuring in poodles - it does NOT naturally occur in our breed. The ONLY way for the gene to have been introduced is to have bred to a breed that does naturally have merle. NO reputable breeder would outcross a poodle to another breed or breed a color that is KNOWN to have come from another breed.

As to genetic testing, it is my understanding that if one outcrosses to another breed and then back to the original breed again for many generations, the genetic testing will eventually show the dog as purely the "original" breed. Such was the case with the very careful outcross of a dalmations to another *similar* breed to help reduce the risk of a certain health condition. This is very different from the unscrupulous mixing of two breeds that would occur to introduce the merle gene to poodles and was done under the careful supervision and acceptance of the AKC.

To the above poster, you don't have a "defective" dog and whether or not your dog came from a backyard breeder before you knew the difference does not mean that anyone would judge you or your dog. There are a lot of people who start the same way and ultimately become educated and learn to recognize the difference. Knowledge is empowering.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Michaddison said:


> For what it's worth, my 11-month old girl is a merle. So far she is the picture of health, has beautiful proportions, is happy, energetic and social, and you couldn't ask for a better temperament. I didn't pick her for her "trendy" coloring. She was the only merle in the litter (I didn't even know what "merle" meant at the time) and I wasn't even originally interested in her (I was looking for a male), but she picked me and she was persistent in winning me over.
> 
> When I got her I knew next to nothing about poodles. I had no idea what colors poodles were "supposed to" come in, or about AKC/CKC registration, or about the "breed standard." I only knew I needed a purebred because of my severe allergies (even to poodle mixes), and the only thing I knew to look for in a breeder was "not a puppy mill." Compared with what I see some "reputable" breeders charge, my dog's breeder practically gave her away. That was great for me because as a PhD student, I wouldn't have been able to afford a "well-bred" poodle.
> 
> I've learned a lot from this site and I can understand the "health" and "breed standard" concerns (as well as the problem of unwanted ill-bred poodles and mixes) that a lot of people have with merles (and/or with hobbyist breeders in general). These are very good points. But quite honestly, sometimes it can come across a bit too strong. My first few months on this site, I was leery to post photos or talk about my girl because, after reading some posts on these subjects, I thought I was supposed to be embarrassed for buying a "defective" poodle (especially with her partial blue eye) from a "backyard breeder." It's taken awhile, but I've gotten over feeling like me and my girl don't quite fit with the rest of poodle people, because the thing is, I am grateful to my dog's breeder for offering beautiful, healthy puppies at a price that even a poor grad student can afford, and I'm not embarrassed. She's a "real" poodle, even if she's a merle, and I don't believe her existence detracts from the quality of the breed. Well, that's my two cents anyway.


I don't know if your dog is merle or not, but she looks beautiful to me. Please post more pictures. I am glad she is doing well.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

So sorry you felt worried about being judged here at PF. We have had a member or two with a Merle poodle before. I think they are gorgeous just like you girl is. I got a real defective poodle (deformed leg,and eye) from a BYB, but I don't think I was ever judged or talked down upon. Just like you I am grateful to my breeder for giving me this beautiful girl that I love more than anything in the world. The topic of BYB's is a difficult one, and I do not wish to open that can of worms. But please do not feel like you shouldn't join in PF discussion or share pictures of your beautiful girl, because of being judged. I personally would love to see more pictures of her, she is absolutely gorgeous!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i bow to cm's expertise as a breeder on the point of whether this girl is a merle. so now we have another merle poodle - and apparently this time not by a breeder seeking to produce merles?

there's been a lot of evidence cited in another thread as proof of why merle is not natural in poodles and has to have been introduced. but in the shadows sits the possibility of spontaneous mutation, which seems to exist in all creatures. i do have questions about dna evidence being "bred out." i wonder if that might be more the result of a flaw in the current testing and the databases being compared than anything else. it's interesting to read the "results" of some of the dna testing being offered by some companies to help identify our pet dogs' breed ancestries. they are far from 100%, even with supposed purebreds. either that or they are 100% correct and folks with dogs with what appear to be impeccable pedigrees have had some interesting mixes foisted on them.

bottom line is what minipoo said, nobody hates a merle dog or disdains it. none of us chooses our ancestry - let alone knows everything about it. what folks disdain is any breeder that would deliberately breed merles to merles knowing that he or she will most likely end up destroying some puppies in the process to make a profit. that's pretty ugly.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Michaddison, I too have a merle, he is not a poodle, but rather a chihuahua. In the chihuahua breed there was originally no merle either, so he had to be a mixed dog from a bad breeder. No one here condemned me for it. We love Emilio and his coat color is beautiful in my opinion. My husband says he looks like desert camo. He is poorly bred and I expect as he grows older he will have more health problems. He already has bad knees, slipped hocks, a very odd angle to his pelvis, and chronic pancreatitis. I expect that getting a "free" dog is going to end up being extremely expensive. His medical bills already have added up to much more than if I had gotten a well bred dog from a reputable breeder. 

Again, no one here has ever said anything against my Emilio. Though I'm sure if I wanted to discuss his breeder there would be some choice words, as there should be.

Enjoy your poodle, she looks like a very sweet girl


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

Yes CM. Merle/Merle breeding can result in a condition known as a lethal white. You are just about guaranteed to produce some in that type of breeding. A lethal white will almost always be deaf & will have vision issues as well. A similar phenomenon can occur in breeding two mantle great danes together & I believe it is cause by the same/similar gene.

I also think your girl is very pretty Michaddison.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Hidden Meadows Poodles in Temecula had a merle, named Asher, that they claimed was all poodle for several months, but DNA testing proved him to be Australian Shepherd and Poodle. They now have two female merles that they say are all poodle... no testing or pedigree posted. I only know because I like to keep an eye on local poodle sites.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Oops. Delete.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Charmed said:


> Hidden Meadows Poodles in Temecula had a merle, named Asher, that they claimed was all poodle for several months, but DNA testing proved him to be Australian Shepherd and Poodle. They now have two female merles that they say are all poodle... no testing or pedigree posted. I only know because I like to keep an eye on local poodle sites.


it would be interesting if you could keep us informed. just did a search and found that the provider of kit-sue's merle is a doodle breeder. some real credentials there - not!


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## Arya's Toys (Feb 24, 2016)

Merle or not, this is one BEAUTIFUL dog. I almost bought a merle but chose not to because I didn't want to drive all the way to La. to pick her up. Color is just that,... color.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

This is a thread that was started in 2014. 

I think the color merle in poodles indicates the dog might not be all poodle and might be an indication of possible health issues. There are many threads on the forum about merle coats in poodles.

Just like in some breeds, like boxers, an all white dog is often associated with a higher incident of deafness. So in some breeds, color is more than just cosmetics.


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## Arya's Toys (Feb 24, 2016)

MiniPoo said:


> I think the color merle in poodles indicates the dog might not be all poodle and might be an indication of possible health issues.


I didn't realize that merle caused heath problems. I have been in touch with a breeder in La for over 6 months wanting one of her merle toy poodles because i thought they were beautiful. She has a lot of tiny toys or "teacup" toys & i was waiting for one that wasn't so small because i didn't want such a small dog. 



MiniPoo said:


> So in some breeds, color is more than just cosmetics.


I had another thread in here somewhere asking if my boy, Versace, looked merle, because to me, he looked a lot like some of the other merle poodles i have seen. His breeder says he is not. just a choc/parti, i hope this is the case, as i don't want health problems that could easily be avoided. Neither his sire or dam are merle.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Please stay away from breeders who advertise "teacup" poodles! There is NO SUCH THING and it is just a gimmick to get people to pay more for a poorly bred dog. Yes the merle gene causes health problems. It is a big issue in the chihuahua breed. Many of the merles are born WAY oversized and with hearing and vision problems. My Emilio is a merle and came from a less than reputable breeder. He is only 7 pounds, but his back legs are horrible, his hocks will actually bend backwards like a stork (slipped hocks) and his knees are horrible as well.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I sometimes have a problem discerning merle in a poodle as opposed to brindle. So I personally might not recognize merle when I see it. Since I usually go for solid colored poodles, that has not been an issue with me. I just know from reading posts on this forum that merle coats on poodles might be a problem even if it is an attractive look for a dog.

When we start out looking for a poodle, I think we look for a certain size and a certain color. We don't always think about making sure the puppy breeder is a good breeder. There are threads on this forum that talk about what to look for in a breeder. Usually it involves genetic testing for inheritable diseases and a breeder who either shows their dogs or does dog sports, like agility or obedience trials--something to prove their dog has good structure.

I don't know if your breeders do more than a quick visit to the vet to check on the health of the parent dogs, but in any case, you might want to consider getting pet insurance, which is a good idea for any poodle.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I checked up on Hidden Meadows Poodles and she is indeed breeding her "merle poodles". There are colorful. Quality?? Judge for yourself.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Quality?

One of their breeding girls as described on their website: Bold intense in-your-face colors, a kaleidoscope of gorgeous black, apricot and grey, a blue eye, gorgeous coat and she is a phantom! Plus she is calm, outgoing and gentle. really breathtaking! Loves to go out and flew through puppy class.

Doesn't do it for me.


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## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> Quality?
> 
> One of their breeding girls as described on their website: Bold intense in-your-face colors, a kaleidoscope of gorgeous black, apricot and grey, a blue eye, gorgeous coat and she is a phantom! Plus she is calm, outgoing and gentle. really breathtaking! Loves to go out and flew through puppy class.
> 
> Doesn't do it for me.



Well, you've got to give them credit for knowing an awful lot of adjectives about colors...a kaleidoscope PLUS a phantom!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Holy Moly this breeder is breeding enough merles to screw up bloodlines for a hundred years!! ALL except one of her females are merle(7) and her males (3) are parti or merle! I can't imagine how many dogs are out there throwing their own litters!!!! And she says she concentrating on the moyen size with german bloodlines.................OY VEY!!!
She is definitely a $$$ color breeder me thinks!!


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

MiniPoo said:


> (...) Just like in some breeds, like boxers, an all white dog is often associated with a higher incident of deafness. So in some breeds, color is more than just cosmetics.


Any breed with piebaldism (i.e. pink-skinned S-gene whiteness, not pigment-skinned ee-whiteness), where the inner parts of the ear may be "white"--i.e. that part did not receive the pre-forms of pigments that develop into pigment producers in the skin and ear sensory cells in the inner ear--can suffer from white-related deafness.

Of course it's more common in breeds where Sp alleles are plentiful (see: "Boxer white") or fixed (Dalmatian), and those breeds that have a tendency to lopsided, sometimes large white markings on the head (some bulldog and pitbull types).

The same thing is also well-known in horses and especially cats. It seems that many ee-white cats are also piebaldistic, thus the frequency of deaf ears and blue eyes and the old knowledge of these features going together.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

MiniPoo said:


> I sometimes have a problem discerning merle in a poodle as opposed to brindle. So I personally might not recognize merle when I see it. (...)


Some clues to distinguish merle from brindle... but first...
*Eumelanin* - "black pigment" -- in Poodles it can be black, brown (liver), silver or silver beige pigment
*Pheomelanin* - "red pigment" -- in Poodles it can be red, apricot, cream, or white (ee-white, i.e. extremely pale cream pigment on pigmented skin, not the absolutely unpigmented white on pink skin that comes from piebaldism)

Big ones:
- merle only affects eumelanin -- it creates a pattern of the "original" eumelanin shade and a paler shade -- black pigment will "break into" black and grey, brown into brown and a brownish pink

- brindle only shows up on the pheomelanin areas defined by the dog's A-locus genotype: the stipes will show all over a sable and in the tan type markings on a phantom

THUS:
- if the pattern consists of eumelanin and pheomelanin, it's not merle
- if the pattern consists of eumelanin and a paler shade of that same colour, it's merle
- due to the wealth of shades in both pigments in Poodles, some cases (especially those where the lighter colour is nearly white) may be difficult to assess this way

- merle typically creates an uneven, broken, splotchy, ragged pattern, and may produce freckle-like markings on the legs and the face
- brindle can have very faint or very wide stripes, but they always follow the general flow from the dorsal line to the ventral

- merle often causes random blue eyes or broken eye colour
- it can cause untypical little white spots

- merle can occur on sable coats too, but it's hard to tell unless you get to see the earliest puppy coat -- luckily Poodle sables are usually pretty dark at birth so if merle is there, it should be visible for a little while

Some examples:
- pale but pretty clearly marked brindle in semi-long coat: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kyra-stack-pillars.jpg
- way more vague brindle in same coat: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fallon_the_Silken_Windhound.jpg
- brindle and merle dog, short coat: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Catahoula_Leopard_Hound_Dog.jpg
- minimal merle stripe on body, clearer markings on head: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chiwalonka_Kurzhaar.jpg
- suspiciously merle-like random dark spots in long coat: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chiwalonka_Langhaar.jpg
- very classic merle in short curly coat: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chiwalonka_lockig.jpg
- lightly marked merle in semi-long coat: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dachshund_Molly.jpg
- very heavily marked merle: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Carea_Leonés2.jpg
- lilac merle with tan marks, long coat (yes he IS merle): https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_Favorite_Spot_For_Sitting.jpg
- same dog shaved down; markings faint but discernible: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lilac_merle_and_tan_clearer_view.jpg


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

So Pecann. Is Emilio a Lilac Merle? I was told Lavender Merle but I don't think that is a color.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Lilac is the usual term for dilute Brown, so I would venture your handsome Emilio is a lilac merle. 
He's CUTE!

Sent from my LGL34C using Tapatalk


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Looks like Emilio is also tan pattern (phantom lol) I wish all breeds would use the same terms. 

Sent from my LGL34C using Tapatalk


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

I went to the link in the original post and I would guess the dog to be a brindle (as they say on the page), not merle, but I don't have access to any of its color genetics, of course.

My boy's breeder had a brindle turn up unexpectedly in a litter last year--he was black and brown, and very dramatic-looking. He went to a pet home with a litter mate. In theory, he could have been registered in AKC like his parents and then registered and shown in UKC conformation, which allows multi-color poodles.

The breeder was hoping for browns from that litter and didn't get them. This year's litter was all brown. I'm not a proponent of breeding for color--what faults are you going to accept just to get color?

As a side note, my boy's grandfather, which is also grandfather of the bitch that had the brindle, is a solid black that has previously thrown parti-color, but my dog does not have or carry piebald.

My boy is a solid color dark blue whose genetic tests say he carries "black and tan," which might go a long way to explain how a brindle cropped up in a branch off his line. My boy also tests K/K dominant black and does not have or carry dilute--apparently the cause of the blue color hasn't been pinned down yet.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

At the time the original post was made she did indeed have a merle. Since then it has been altered and moved on.


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## Chrystid (Feb 28, 2021)

Michaddison said:


> For what it's worth, my 11-month old girl is a merle. So far she is the picture of health, has beautiful proportions, is happy, energetic and social, and you couldn't ask for a better temperament. I didn't pick her for her "trendy" coloring. She was the only merle in the litter (I didn't even know what "merle" meant at the time) and I wasn't even originally interested in her (I was looking for a male), but she picked me and she was persistent in winning me over.
> 
> When I got her I knew next to nothing about poodles. I had no idea what colors poodles were "supposed to" come in, or about AKC/CKC registration, or about the "breed standard." I only knew I needed a purebred because of my severe allergies (even to poodle mixes), and the only thing I knew to look for in a breeder was "not a puppy mill." Compared with what I see some "reputable" breeders charge, my dog's breeder practically gave her away. That was great for me because as a PhD student, I wouldn't have been able to afford a "well-bred" poodle.
> 
> I've learned a lot from this site and I can understand the "health" and "breed standard" concerns (as well as the problem of unwanted ill-bred poodles and mixes) that a lot of people have with merles (and/or with hobbyist breeders in general). These are very good points. But quite honestly, sometimes it can come across a bit too strong. My first few months on this site, I was leery to post photos or talk about my girl because, after reading some posts on these subjects, I thought I was supposed to be embarrassed for buying a "defective" poodle (especially with her partial blue eye) from a "backyard breeder." It's taken awhile, but I've gotten over feeling like me and my girl don't quite fit with the rest of poodle people, because the thing is, I am grateful to my dog's breeder for offering beautiful, healthy puppies at a price that even a poor grad student can afford, and I'm not embarrassed. She's a "real" poodle, even if she's a merle, and I don't believe her existence detracts from the quality of the breed. Well, that's my two cents anyway.


She is beautiful! I have a Merle, and like you I didn’t know of the stigma associated with them before I got mine. I originally wanted a black male, but the litter I got my guy from only had 2 whites, a black female, and 2 merles. I also got a dna test and he is 💯 poodle back 5 generations. So I got the laid back Merle male. He is the picture of health and is stunning in every way. No one would ever doubt that his stunning solid color siblings were poodles, so it’s confusing to me why there is doubt to why the 2 merles in the litter are treated any differently. So don’t worry about the poodle snobs. I understand the concern over breeding disease into poodles that can be avoided, but frankly, most of the solid colored poodles I see out there don’t look even close to the standard “poodle confirmation and health”. My guy is only 7 mths and already has a better gait and confirmation than most of the “solids” I see. I stopped worrying about it. So love your girl and be proud to have such a beautiful dog!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't think the dog pictured above is a merle. I think he is a black and white parti, but since I don't have eyes directly on the dog I won't say for sure. Also I don't think merle in poodles or merle any breed is so much about stigma as it is about health. First merle doesn't exist naturally in poodles so a dog that seems to be a poodle but is really merle can't be a 100% poodle, so what genes are travelling with merle in that situation? Merle is also definitely known to be coupled with/linked to a number of adverse health conditions as has been noted along the way here.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> I don't think the dog pictured above is a merle. I think he is a black and white parti, but since I don't have eyes directly on the dog I won't say for sure. Also I don't think merle in poodles or merle any breed is so much about stigma as it is about health. First merle doesn't exist naturally in poodles so a dog that seems to be a poodle but is really merle can't be a 100% poodle, so what genes are travelling with merle in that situation? Merle is also definitely known to be coupled with/linked to a number of adverse health conditions as has been noted along the way here.


I believe it is merle based on the facial colors. 

The color has a stigma because it's a hallmark of a breeder that is breeding only for profit, producing fad colors using dogs with hung papers in their lineage. Also it is highly frowned upon because poodles are a breed with ee red, which masks merle coloration, creating extremely dangerous risks if merle is present in the poodle gene pool. Risks can theoretically be avoided but only if every single dog is genetic tested to detect merle, which we all know will not be the case in a breed where people are not expecting dogs to potentially carry merle. Every breed will have stigma for non-breed off-standard colors, but merle is particularly dangerous in breeds that have ee red.

What to do when you have a merle poodle[mix] you love very much? Simple. Love them, train them, do fun activities with them, as they are your dog and that makes them perfect as they are. But just be honest. Mixed breeds can be wonderful dogs too. Your dog should be appreciated for their great qualities without having to lie to yourself about them being pure spoo or ignoring the issues associated with the gene. As long as you are not spreading misinformation, poodle "snobs" will not bother you. Just please don't lie to people. That just worsens the image of merles.

Many people accidentally purchase dogs from less than stellar sources or breeders, and then learn why their choices were not good from an ethical standpoint. It doesn't make their first dog any less awesome as an individual. But it means they can move forward to make more ethical choices in the future and give ethical advice to others.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

If other dogs in the litter weren't merle, but had merle siblings, then the siblings are also not purebred. There a specific health issues assiociated with merle, and i've seen AWFUL things such as RED POODLES with merle in their pedigree... WHAT?! awful.... The merle thing is just a way to get more money off the dogs and i will never support it


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

5 generations in this case doesn't mean a merle poodle mix is pure poodle. 
all other poodle colors and color patterns go back a hundred years or more. In the original linked article, the "merle" poodle was discovered to be the result a mix back in its pedigree and neutered


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I've seen plenty of partis that were heavily "marbled" on the head, so I am just not convinced still that this is a merle, but as I said above I won't bet money on it .

The bottom line of course is that the poster has the right dog for them and that they have many happy healthy years together.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Chrystid said:


> She is beautiful! I have a Merle, and like you I didn’t know of the stigma associated with them before I got mine. I originally wanted a black male, but the litter I got my guy from only had 2 whites, a black female, and 2 merles. I also got a dna test and he is 💯 poodle back 5 generations. So I got the laid back Merle male. He is the picture of health and is stunning in every way. No one would ever doubt that his stunning solid color siblings were poodles, so it’s confusing to me why there is doubt to why the 2 merles in the litter are treated any differently. So don’t worry about the poodle snobs. I understand the concern over breeding disease into poodles that can be avoided, but frankly, most of the solid colored poodles I see out there don’t look even close to the standard “poodle confirmation and health”. My guy is only 7 mths and already has a better gait and confirmation than most of the “solids” I see. I stopped worrying about it. So love your girl and be proud to have such a beautiful dog!
> View attachment 474188


Keep in mind that genetic tests aren't analyzing the entire genome of the dog; it would be too expensive. Instead the test looks for certain markers. If a test finds most of the markers expected in a poodle and none of the markers not expected in a poodle, then the test is going to conclude the dog is a poodle. That doesn't mean the dog doesn't have other genes; it just means the test wasn't looking for these other genes. 

There are a few reasons why merle is not allowed in the poodle breed at all. To my mind the important reason is for the health and welfare of the dogs. Crossing two merles together produces a dog which may be blind and/or deaf. Ugh. Clearly an ethical breeder would not breed two merle dogs together. However, the merle pattern is only visible when the merle gene is combined with a color the gene can modify. A white or cream poodle, like one of your dog's littermates, might carry the merle gene with no one being the wiser. Cross two normal seeming white merle carriers together and surprise! - half the litter could have serious congenital problems. That's both heartbreaking and a huge financial hit for the breeder.

Even worse, some greedsters will deliberately do a double merle cross for the purpose of creating a stud dog that can sire 100% merle litters. The most notorious example of this was the collie Wyndlair Avalanche, sire of Westminster 2012 best of breed winner Wyndlair Cherokee Vindication. Wyndlair Avalanche was deaf and mostly blind; he would have been completely unable to function in any of the sport and herding activities collies were bred for. His sole raison d'etre was to father blotchy patterned puppies.

A less important but still valid reason is that it's not a color which has been historically recorded in the poodle breed. It started showing up in the 20th century. Since merle is a dominant gene with deleterious effects, it would not have been able to hide and skip generations the way the parti gene does. It would have shown up as either merle patterning on dark dogs or impaired double merle cream dogs. It almost certainly started appearing because someone's purebred poodle line got contaminated by an outcross to another breed.

Yet another reason is that most (not all, but most) breed clubs state that poodles should be solid color. Yes, it's an arbitrary standard, but here we are. Merles are not solid color and so do not meet breed standard. Again, merle is a dominant pattern. If it's there, it will out. It should be very easy to remove merle from the poodle gene pool by simply not breeding dogs descended from merle lines.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Chrystid said:


> She is beautiful! I have a Merle, and like you I didn’t know of the stigma associated with them before I got mine. I originally wanted a black male, but the litter I got my guy from only had 2 whites, a black female, and 2 merles. I also got a dna test and he is 💯 poodle back 5 generations. So I got the laid back Merle male. He is the picture of health and is stunning in every way. No one would ever doubt that his stunning solid color siblings were poodles, so it’s confusing to me why there is doubt to why the 2 merles in the litter are treated any differently. So don’t worry about the poodle snobs. I understand the concern over breeding disease into poodles that can be avoided, but frankly, most of the solid colored poodles I see out there don’t look even close to the standard “poodle confirmation and health”. My guy is only 7 mths and already has a better gait and confirmation than most of the “solids” I see. I stopped worrying about it. So love your girl and be proud to have such a beautiful dog!
> View attachment 474188


Hi and welcome Chrystid! Your puppy is gorgeous and he looks a lot like my dog's dad and siblings, who are merle. He is around the same age as my Oona, is it possible he came from Ontario and is a sibling?

I get that this is a controversial topic and this is why I have not even felt comfortable revealing this because my dog's merle ancestry is invisible (she appears black with a small white chest patch like many dogs on here) and that has allowed me to enjoy this community without feeling ostracized. But folks, you should know that reading these boards and seeing language like "abomination" and seeing past threads shut down for posting pictures was not a super fun time! It did not make me want to share this info about my dog!

I didn't know it was such a controversy at the time and I would probably not have bought her if I'd realized how poorly looked upon it is by the poodle community. If I'd been offered one of Oona's merle siblings at the time I'd probably have a dog that I would feel nervous about sharing pictures of because of the stigma you mention lest I be accused of misleading people about my mixed breed dog who upsets people to see. I would hope that what members mean to do here is to indicate their reservations about merle breeding without being unwelcoming, but it's a fine line.

The thing is, my dog's parents are CKC registered (even the merle sire, which is a fault but then again so are all non-solid variations for conformation purposes) and she will be able to be registered along with her merle siblings after she is spayed, so it is strange and interesting to me that this debate about purity is being litigated in community forums instead of being left to the breed clubs that actually draw the boundaries for what counts as a poodle for showing and registration purposes.

Honestly, I'm sure there are many of us on these boards who have purchased from less responsible breeders and may not know if our dogs are truly "pure", which I understand to mean "bred according to the current social consensus of a community of breeders who are working uphold a breed standard" - but most of us don't have dogs that would give themselves away visually. Should that mean we also shouldn't post in the poodle threads and need to stay in the "other pets" threads? I don't think so.

On a more philosophical note, to say something is or isn't "naturally occurring" in a completely human-constructed animal breed feels a bit off (no offense intended, this is just how I see things and I am someone who studies the social construction of science, technology, and nature-culture interaction so I find the history of dogs and breed standards intellectually interesting). Why not say instead, "based on our understanding of color genetics, this color was not in the poodle gene pool until recently", or as cowpony says above (sorry, you posted while I was drafting this essay, lol) it is "not a color which has been historically recorded in the poodle breed"?

Sorry to write a dissertation here. I am sorry if you are made to feel unwelcome, and I'm sure there are members of this community who either don't share pictures or don't share their dog's ancestry because of the stigma and the fear of being told they don't belong, or that they're promoting something harmful by showing cute dog pictures. I hope that me "coming clean" about my dog's admittedly controversial breeding might pave the way to a slightly more mindful community. Sorry to stir the pot, but I feel like I had to say something. Also if anyone wants to nerd out about dogs as art and technology, which is admittedly a story that has good, bad, and ugly, I'm up for it.

edited to correct confirmation to conformation, for clarity
edited again to correct spelling of Chrystid's name 
can you tell I am conflict averse and this whole thing makes me anxious? ha ha!


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

@Oonapup - I think people with merle-background and less than perfectly bred dogs are welcome to post here. I know there are plenty of people here with dogs from BYBs, less than perfect breeders, even puppy mills. They are still poodles. Even some people with poodle mixes post!

Back to merles- they are more controversial than brindles (another multi colour people are not convinced are a naturally occuring mutation and not a result of a cross breed) because of the potential for health risks. I am personally someone who thinks most multicoloured poodles should be showable in AKC/CKC, but that registration should be removed from merle poodles. 

I think one of the reasons people on this board jump on the Merle thing is that indeed, it's easy not to be aware of the issues with Merle's or that they are a colour that has been introduced through crossbreeding . Merles are beautiful! I have relatives with merle aussies. They are striking, very pretty dogs.

Based on our understanding, the merle gene is a result of one or more mixed breeds being included in the poodle registry and is not a mutation that has occured independently in the poodle genome. So it's not 'pure' as in it includes, at some point, a dog outside of the registry. It's a hot topic because of the potential risks it brings to the breed unlike some other colour breeding. Unlike brindle, which is recessive, Merle is dominant and cannot have been hidden in the breed for hundreds of years without popping up as deaf puppies in ee litters or Merle puppies in ee, Merle carrier crossed to black or brown litters.

It's pretty easy to fake CKC and AKC documents to bring in a mixed breed. I believe FCI requires a genetic test to prove the parents are as stated but in North America it's more of an honour system. The KC in the UK has recently moved to ban the registration of Merle dogs in non Merle breeds, including poodles, and I wouldn't be surprised to see this come to the CKC or AKC - keep in mind that both organizations are funded largely by fees from registering litters and that this would have a financial impact. I spoke to two CKC breeders while puppy hunting who I know would support it.





__





Registration of dogs of merle colouring | Kennel Club


We will no longer register merle-coloured dogs where there is no documented evidence of the colour being well established over a sustained period.




www.thekennelclub.org.uk





I think the other thing that scares me about Merle poodles, beyond the potential for cryptic merles, is that the most likely potential breeds from which this pattern derives include breeds with MDR1 sensitivity, which can cause bad reactions with certain drugs, less reactions to other drugs in affected dogs and is very common in the breeds that Merle dogs are common in (aussies, collies, etc).I have known Aussies and border collies with this and it is a pain. Because this isn't a poodle problem typically, a vet wouldn't know to anticipate it in dosing or medication choices .If I had a dog with a merle background I would likely pay for a test to check for this for my own piece of mind.









Multidrug Resistance Mutation (MDR1) | VCA Animal Hospital


Many herding breeds (most commonly Collies and Australian Shepherds) have a mutation at the MDR1 gene that makes them more sensitive to the negative effects of certain medications. These drugs include several antiparasitic agents (when given at high doses), the antidiarrheal agent loperamide...




vcahospitals.com





We aren't genetically engineering dogs (yet), plucking only a single gene from another breed and sticking it into the poodle genome. Instead, a mix, even many generations back, brings in many genes, some good, some not good, and potentially the ability to bring some currently non existent health issues into the breed.

I am actually not outright against some careful crossing into standard poodles (out in the open, not hidden) to bring in more genetic diversity, like what was done with dalmatians. But careful is the key word, and I would not chose to bring in either Merle or MDR1 to increase diversity.

If there is some registration paper fudging, it's possible for a breeder to be unaware their dog has merle (or a collie breed) in the background. Even if a dog with Merle ancestors doesn't carry Merle from the way the genetic lottery has played out in the generations since the cross occurred, it may carry MDR1 and potential breeders and owners may be unaware.

A quick search brought up similar arguments about merles on schnauzer and chihuahua pages, also breeds where merles have suddenly appeared.

It always worries me that the breeders producing Merles (breeding for colour) are often also the breeders who appear to be less knowledgeable about genetics and health testing - and most likely to also be breeding the other fashionable colours (like red) that can hide merles. One breeder I stumbled across while I was researching this breeds merles, mentions cryptic merles, and says there is no genetic test for them and doesn't seem to know about the relationship with ee. It seems like a bad combination of risk and knowledge in the poodle breed.


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## Chrystid (Feb 28, 2021)

cowpony said:


> Keep in mind that genetic tests aren't analyzing the entire genome of the dog; it would be too expensive. Instead the test looks for certain markers. If a test finds most of the markers expected in a poodle and none of the markers not expected in a poodle, then the test is going to conclude the dog is a poodle. That doesn't mean the dog doesn't have other genes; it just means the test wasn't looking for these other genes.
> 
> There are a few reasons why merle is not allowed in the poodle breed at all. To my mind the important reason is for the health and welfare of the dogs. Crossing two merles together produces a dog which may be blind and/or deaf. Ugh. Clearly an ethical breeder would not breed two merle dogs together. However, the merle pattern is only visible when the merle gene is combined with a color the gene can modify. A white or cream poodle, like one of your dog's littermates, might carry the merle gene with no one being the wiser. Cross two normal seeming white merle carriers together and surprise! - half the litter could have serious congenital problems. That's both heartbreaking and a huge financial hit for the breeder.
> 
> ...


I honestly find this debate on whether or not “Merle” poodles breed questioned, when both dam and sire are a poodle, ridiculous. I have expensive, well bred, warmblood horses and have a degree in animal science. I have taken genetic courses. So I’m not just some housewife with an uneducated opinion when it comes to this subject. I am wondering, according to all of you poodle breed and genetic “experts”, how many generations does a dog have to go back with its dna marking it as 100% poodle, does it have have to go to be considered a poodle? Or are we ignoring dna completely due to your color preferences? I have grown up watching my aunt and uncle breed and show champion Dobermans. I know all about the breed, show, and pedigree game. I know about breed standards. I respect breed standards for preserving any breed for show issues. I NEVER heard my aunt, whom had the top Doberman bitch in the country at one time, say that a blue Doberman wasn’t purebred because it was blue. She didn’t particularly like the color, it’s not akc standard color, which I respect as a quality breeder, but she wasn’t silly and did not say that a blue dobe that was born from a line of purebred dogs wasn’t a dobe. 

Honestly, I LOVE the poodle breed, but the people involved with this breed seem to be ridiculous and mean. I honestly don’t care about any of this, I love my dog, and his color doesn’t matter to me. I do not want to show or breed dogs. I chose him for his temperament and confirmation. I am more interested in the qualities and health of the poodle than it’s coat color. I have just seen some rather ignorant and mean people on these posts concerning merles, from people that probably haven’t even gone to college, and that isn’t right.
Anyways, like I said, I really don’t care about this, but people shouldn’t make other people feel bad about their dog bc they don’t like the color.
And like I said, I am seeing a lot of “purebred solid colored poodles” out there, that have terrible confirmation and temperaments. This is just a very silly subject. 
Have fun everyone arguing about it. If several dna tests say my dog is 100% poodle, I think I will listen to that over anyone’s opinion. Because if a dna test isn’t valid, then what’s the point of them.... Guess those college educated scientists don’t know what they are doing.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Oonapup, I agree with FWoP in that I hope you don't feel as if you are unwelcome to post! This forum is for poodles and poodle mixes and we have had/have many members that have dogs that are not purebred, are not registered, or come from puppy mills. Many people enter the world of poodles through a rescue or a poodle mix! We love all dogs here. Your Oona is a super special pup and we love her regardless of a non-poodle ancestor several generations back.

I think there is a difference in welcoming members with dogs from less than ideal backgrounds and condoning the production of dogs by those breeders. My stance on merles is they are bad for the breed and the purchasing and breeding of them should be discouraged through education, but the dogs themselves are already here and should be loved just as much as any other dog. They are mostly poodle after all, so this forum is very appropriate to them. I just wouldn't consider it ethical to direct a prospective poodle owner to purchase one themselves. I have seen SO MANY breeders that produce merles also produce red dogs. I have seen cryptic merle red poodles with blue eyes. And that is why I have a hard line stance against the production of merles. But the dogs themselves can be just as wonderful as any other poodle, and there is no reason to feel your dog is less than. We all love dogs here and are happy to have all of our members.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Chrystid, why you amble over over to member introductions and introduce yourself and your dog


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Oonapup, I agree with FWoP in that I hope you don't feel as if you are unwelcome to post! This forum is for poodles and poodle mixes and we have had/have many members that have dogs that are not purebred, are not registered, or come from puppy mills. Many people enter the world of poodles through a rescue or a poodle mix! We love all dogs here. Your Oona is a super special pup and we love her regardless of a non-poodle ancestor several generations back.
> 
> I think there is a difference in welcoming members with dogs from poor backgrounds and condoning the production of dogs by those breeders. My stance on merles is they are bad for the breed and the purchasing and breeding of them should be discouraged through education, but the dogs themselves are already here and should be loved just as much as any other dog. They are mostly poodle after all, so this forum is very appropriate to them. I just wouldn't consider it ethical to direct a prospective poodle owner to purchase one themselves. I have seen SO MANY breeders that produce merles also produce red dogs. I have seen cryptic merle red poodles with blue eyes. And that is why I have a hard line stance against the production of merles. But the dogs themselves can be just as wonderful as any other poodle, and there is no reason to feel your dog is less than. We all love dogs here and are happy to have all of our members.


I get it, I just think educating people to discourage the practice of producing and marketing these dogs and discouraging owners from participating requires walking a fine line if even the mention of merle or a post must become an opportunity to educate instead of people being allowed to post normally and enjoy their dogs, which is the case for less visibly stigmatized types but which may be equally or even more irresponsibly bred. If Oona's merle lineage had been visible I would not have felt like posting if every post had to be an opportunity to educate me and others about the ills of merle breeding simply because it is a visible trait that upsets members to see. And that is why I posted supportively to Christyd, who is currently getting the unpleasant reeducation treatment that I would have faced had I chosen the "wrong" dog. The main thing is, I've gotten so much good from this community that it would be a shame to alienate someone right off the bat because of this, which I believe has happened in this case. You'll notice there are not a lot (any?) of merle poodle people participating regularly. This is why. Some probably prefer it that way, but I think it's a shame. Again, not because I'm some big proponent of merle, but because I would have needed a thicker skin to stick around if I had a dog that looked like Christyd's, and this community has been a lifesaver.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Oona, what are the dates of the posts that you're reading? There used to be a bunch of breeders here, and they sometimes looked down on dogs, not just their breeders. But these days, most of the folks here are supportive of the dogs no matter the particulars. We still disfavor certain breeders because of their practices, but we support the dogs and their owners.

ETA: Take this thread, for example, from _2014_ - seven years ago. Most of these posters are long gone; no need to anguish yourself over these old posts.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Chrystid said:


> I honestly find this debate on whether or not “Merle” poodles breed questioned, when both dam and sire are a poodle, ridiculous. I have expensive, well bred, warmblood horses and have a degree in animal science. I have taken genetic courses. So I’m not just some housewife with an uneducated opinion when it comes to this subject. I am wondering, according to all of you poodle breed and genetic “experts”, how many generations does a dog have to go back with its dna marking it as 100% poodle, does it have have to go to be considered a poodle? Or are we ignoring dna completely due to your color preferences? I have grown up watching my aunt and uncle breed and show champion Dobermans. I know all about the breed, show, and pedigree game. I know about breed standards. I respect breed standards for preserving any breed for show issues. I NEVER heard my aunt, whom had the top Doberman bitch in the country at one time, say that a blue Doberman wasn’t purebred because it was blue. She didn’t particularly like the color, it’s not akc standard color, which I respect as a quality breeder, but she wasn’t silly and did not say that a blue dobe that was born from a line of purebred dogs wasn’t a dobe.
> 
> Honestly, I LOVE the poodle breed, but the people involved with this breed seem to be ridiculous and mean. I honestly don’t care about any of this, I love my dog, and his color doesn’t matter to me. I do not want to show or breed dogs. I chose him for his temperament and confirmation. I am more interested in the qualities and health of the poodle than it’s coat color. I have just seen some rather ignorant and mean people on these posts concerning merles, from people that probably haven’t even gone to college, and that isn’t right.
> Anyways, like I said, I really don’t care about this, but people shouldn’t make other people feel bad about their dog bc they don’t like the color.
> ...



blue in dobermanns wasn't introduced, it was always there. Its a dilute. Merle was bred in some time ago. making any merle poodle a mutt. We aren't mean, we love our breed and people mixing in merles for fun isn't OK.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Liz said:


> Oona, what are the dates of the posts that you're reading? There used to be a bunch of breeders here, and they sometimes looked down on dogs, not just their breeders. But these days, most of the folks here are supportive of the dogs no matter the particulars. We still disfavor certain breeders because of their practices, but we support the dogs and their owners.
> 
> ETA: Take this thread, for example, from _2014_ - seven years ago. Most of these posters are long gone; no need to anguish yourself over these old posts.


You can just search "merle" for a taste of what I'm talking about. I read them all when Oona was new and I felt like I had dodged a bullet. Most of the threads older and newer have a mix of lots of good information and some judgmental stuff, but the dynamic is the same. I haven't seen any merle poodle owners just enjoying their dogs and participating like everyone else. There are way bigger, actual problems in the world so I kind of wish I hadn't posted. But think about what it would feel like to read these posts and whether you'd want to participate if every post about or picture of a dog like yours produces this kind of response.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Oonapup said:


> I get it, I just think educating people to discourage the practice of producing and marketing these dogs and discouraging owners from participating requires walking a fine line if even the mention of merle or a post must become an opportunity to educate instead of people being allowed to post normally and enjoy their dogs, which is the case for less visibly stigmatized types but which may be equally or even more irresponsibly bred. If Oona's merle lineage had been visible I would not have felt like posting if every post had to be an opportunity to educate me and others about the ills of merle breeding simply because it is a visible trait that upsets members to see. And that is why I posted supportively to Christyd, who is currently getting the unpleasant reeducation treatment that I would have faced had I chosen the "wrong" dog. The main thing is, I've gotten so much good from this community that it would be a shame to alienate someone right off the bat because of this, which I believe has happened in this case. You'll notice there are not a lot (any?) of merle poodle people participating regularly. This is why. Some probably prefer it that way, but I think it's a shame. Again, not because I'm some big proponent of merle, but because I would have needed a thicker skin to stick around if I had a dog that looked like Christyd's, and this community has been a lifesaver.


I agree it's a very fine line and I think there could be some very good discussion about it. I agree with Liz that these days, people tend to be easier on new members and not use every opportunity to try to jump on merles. In the early days when it was a less-known issue, I think people felt like they needed to take every possible opportunity to spread the word about merles so a lot of old threads are overly harsh. These days I think people are more welcoming and try to only offer correction of information when it is warranted. For example, if a person is asking about advice in trying to breed a poodle with merle ancestry, I have stepped in with information on why that would not be in the breed's best interests. I still try to be succinct and polite. But if it's just a new member sharing photos of their 6 month old spoo, that's not appropriate. If that same owner is advising other breeders to purchase from their breeder, then yes I would see that as reason to try some education. It's all about circumstance. I would do the same if they were advocating purchasing from a breeder that breeds on the first heat or who breeds dogs with failed hip tests or severe temperament issues. I think there are a variety of reasons why there are few merle dog owners on here, and the stigma is only part of the equation.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I think if you start your own posts on merles and don't read old threads, you'll find PF is pretty accommodating these days. Most of us learned the hard way and just want to spare others the same pain and expense.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Again, I think it's really interesting to note the difference in reactions between threads about brindles, abstracts, phantoms and partis and threads about merles. There's some discussion about the origin of brindles and phantoms (potentially a cross) and partis and abstracts have been selected against since the late 1800s, but as they aren't colours that are potentially harmful to the dog, they are not typically spoken of as being unethical in themselves. Other than some grumbling from the more traditional solid coloured folks, no one is suggesting they aren't ethical, just not to standard (although acceptable in UKC). There is some grumbling about making sure you get one from a breeder who health tests (as many breeders breeding for colour often breed for profit and may skimp on this) but little about them not being an acceptable part of the breed.

Merle has the potential to cause litters of partially blind or deaf puppies, and do pose a health risk to the breed - and are, therefore a heated topic. Even single copy merle dogs have been found to be at an increased risk of deafness. 
Prevalence of deafness in dogs heterozygous or homozygous for the merle allele - PubMed.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

unless there is a thread like this with the title "merle" i wont say anything about your poodle being merle


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well until she passed one of our most active participants and well loved members (Molly MuiMia) posted tons about her poodle cross. She was not shunned or taken to task for having a mix, but she also did acknowledge that cross breeding is not particularly a good way to preserve this breed. Perceptions and intentions are different with one being received and the other being offered. It is possible to offer a concern about the merle gene without disparaging a person and their dog that is merle even if the discussion about merle in poodles doesn't favor producing such dogs.

BTW we are all smart and thoughtful people nearly all of the time. I don't care who went to college or grad school or who dropped out when they were 16 so they could survive some bad breaks in life. We have people with Ph.D.s, VMDs and people who are really well versed on poodles because they worked to become so. Some are breeders, some do performance/companion sports. We can disagree and do so respectfully or with disdain. We all can make choices in how we speak here and anywhere else we happen to find ourselves with knowledge or opinions we want to share.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

Totally OTT but I remember Molly's posts well and her pics of her sweet pup and had no idea she was no longer with us. So sad to hear. May she Rest In Peace.

I'm sorry for the thread hijacking.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Friends, I was simply sharing how it felt *to me* to read old and new threads on this topic, as someone whose dog has this lineage but did not get this reaction because it is invisible. No-one told me I was lying or spreading misinformation by representing my dog as a poodle, for example. And no-one says this if the dog otherwise looks like a poodle even if we don't know for sure. And as I said in my first response, people can have different positions about whether merles can be registered as poodles or not, as the breed clubs do, but it seems you are saying you're welcome on the condition you agree with us and admit you have a mix, and that seems unlikely to happen (and even unreasonable, certainly as a first condition to participating) when people are purchasing dogs that are born to registered parents. 

I shared this because I felt bad that Chrystid might feel unwelcome based on the responses to her post (this appears to be what happened), which jumped to explain all the reasons merle is bad, DNA tests are problematic, or to debate about whether the dog is truly merle (and by implication, truly a problem) etc, with few words of welcome to a brand new member, and assuming instead that she needs to be schooled. I wanted to try to make an effort to be welcoming and show I understand her experience to some degree. I appreciate that twyla made the point to invite her to post an intro thread after I replied. Understandably there are strong feelings about this topic but I'd hope that instead of being defensive and saying "But we are welcoming! We welcome poodle mixes!" folks can recognize that even with the best intentions to educate, these passionate, "informative" responses can come on a bit strong. People with obvious poodle mixes aren't assumed to be ignorant and in need of a learning opportunity or accused of lying for calling their dog a poodle, or automatically debated about, or scolded for normalizing something bad. If your first post was inevitably met with "but FYI that's not a poodle and also abomination/terrible/irresponsible", and at best, "but you can love them anyway" you might feel defensive too. I also get that this is a "merle" thread and thus these responses are on-topic, but it is this new member's first post. I don't agree, for the record, with their response about DNA testing and insulting members' education level, but I can understand why they may feel defensive in this thread, if this is how we are going to be.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Well, I just can't leave this thread alone. I have been breeding and showing poodles since 1967, first in the UK, then in the USA. For all breeds who are shown in the UK and USA and Europe, there is a "standard of the breed". This is a written description of what a dog of that breed should look like. The poodle breed standards of the USA, UK, Canada, and Europe all state that a poodle is to be a solid color. I am particularly opposed to breeding for the merle color for the simple reason that it is linked with some serious health conditions.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

My impression on the recent post to this thread was that a non-member joined the site without intention of being a community member just to call the forum members snobs and attack them. I agree with Twyla that the member should introduce themselves properly if they want to have a discussion. I understand where Oonapup is coming from but I felt the poster was antagonistic from the start. It is hard not to have a brittleness to conversation when the newcomer is so rude and uninterested in real discussion from the start.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Thank you for your perspective @Oonapup. You are setting a good example for all of us in both courage and kindness.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Perhaps the moderators should close this thread? Reading it has all the joy of doom scrolling.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Chrystid said:


> I have grown up watching my aunt and uncle breed and show champion Dobermans. I know all about the breed, show, and pedigree game. I know about breed standards. I respect breed standards for preserving any breed for show issues. I NEVER heard my aunt, whom had the top Doberman bitch in the country at one time, say that a blue Doberman wasn’t purebred because it was blue. She didn’t particularly like the color, it’s not akc standard color, which I respect as a quality breeder, but she wasn’t silly and did not say that a blue dobe that was born from a line of purebred dogs wasn’t a dobe.


Probably the main difference between blue and fawn Dobes and merle Poodles is that blue and fawn have been in the Doberman breed since its creation. The 1929 AKC standard lists the approved colors as black, brown (now called red) and blue. Fawn was finally listed as an approved color in (I believe) the late 60s. The main reason that a lot of breeders don't breed dilutes is because of a condition called Color Dilution Alopecia. In dilute dogs, melanin is distributed unevenly along the hair shaft, leading to brittle hair that breaks easily, which in turn leads to hair loss. Pretty much every dilute Dobe has it to some degree, ranging from a very well-bred fawn I know of that still had most of his coat when he died in his teens to a friend's rescued blue bitch who has significant hair loss at nine.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> Perhaps the moderators should close this thread? Reading it has all the joy of doom scrolling.


Done.


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