# Poodle Genetics & History



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Yes, is very interesting isn't it? I am signed up for the poodle genetics course.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

As Mr. Spock would say, "Fascinating." Thanks for posting!

The reference links at the bottom of the main article are also well worth checking out.


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## Sweetp (Mar 23, 2013)

Good for you, CM! :thumb:


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## Specman (Jun 14, 2012)

That's is why I have never got on a high horse about doodles because I felt that my mini may have went through a similar process in the past!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

There is a very large difference, though, as the majority of doodle breeders are interested primarily in financial gain and/or producing pets to fill a demand as opposed to breeding to improve the breed.

The fact that miniature poodle DNA differs from standard poodle DNA comes as little surprise to me since the varieties are generally not interbred.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Fascinating. Next I'm going to read the links. 



> The fact that miniature poodle DNA differs from standard poodle DNA comes as little surprise to me since the varieties are generally not interbred.


But what about in the beginning? I always heard that they bred the Standards down in size to create the mini's and toys...as in taking smallish Standards and going from there. That must not be the case then. They must have introduced other small breeds somehow to get the smaller varieties, right? Hmmm....velly interestinc! I'll go read some more.

Thanks for the interesting stuff Sweet!

CM...I bet you're excited for that class. Is it an online thing? Or an in person seminar type thing? Maybe you can report back and let us know how it all turned out.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I believe that is true for miniatures, but the development of toy poodles involved some other non shedding toy breeds I believe. Miniatures and standards do share genetic makeup or they would not appear so similar - in phenotype. Something that I already learned from this basic course that started yesterday, is that the vast majority of genes in all dogs are EXACTLY the same. Bulldogs, poodles, afghans. A variation in only a few genes is responsible for the great differences we see.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

So I guess that means us Tpoo parents belong on a different forum lol!


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## Specman (Jun 14, 2012)

:biggrin1:


CharismaticMillie said:


> There is a very large difference, though, as the majority of doodle breeders are interested primarily in financial gain and/or producing pets to fill a demand as opposed to breeding to improve the breed.
> 
> The fact that miniature poodle DNA differs from standard poodle DNA comes as little surprise to me since the varieties are generally not interbred.


That's true but, maybe they had the same argument about minis and toys on this forum 100 years ago :biggrin:


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It does not surprise me that minis and toys are genetically distinct from standards (and for that matter from one another) or that poodles are genetically similar to other dog breeds. They are all one species, _Canis familiaris_, after all. Just as we are all one species _**** sapiens sapiens_ regardless of whether we are caucasian, african or asian in our heritage. We are all much more identical in our DNA than not. We as a species are also (depending on the data you look at) 96% or thereabouts homologous to chimpanzees, although clearly not chimps. For dogs of all breeds, as members of one species, they will be nearly identical. They are all ultimately derived from the same early domestic dogs and will share essential conserved genes for essential biological functions such as the way the digest and metabolize food, their nutritional requirements and the like. 

This is not to say that there aren't true genetic differences among individual people, groups of people of shared ethnicity or by extension, among dog breeds. What developers, maintainers and improvers of particular breeds are selecting for are traits such as coat colors and other coat characteristics, size, length of leg relative to length of body, etc.. They are not selecting for whether there are or are not four legs attached in the expected arrangement. The DNA that controls the formation of any domestic dog in its embryonic development will be fundamentally the same genes. The genes that make the difference between a poodle and an afghan hound are a mere handful of all of the genes present.

There also clearly are important things of which we can be informed by DNA analysis, COI, % Wycliffe, presence or absence of genes associated with known disease risk such as von Willebrands and many others. There are probably many things that we still cannot directly evaluate genetic risks for at this time because we don't know the genes involved (I have a friend who is a carrier along with her husband for a rare and fatal genetic disorder. At the time their first child was diagnosed with this terrible disease there was no test. By the time they conceived their second child (now 16) there was. Had the test not become available, they wouldn't have risked a second pregnancy.). Responsible breeders will, of course, take advantage of genetic testing and if they are ethical people who truly care about producing the best healthiest dogs that they can they will not breed when clear genetic risks exist.

The link the OP provided is a very good example of just how much we can still learn because of the incredible advancements in biotechnology. Part of why it is so easy to do in dogs, cats and other animals (and plants) now is that the technology advancements have also made DNA sequencing much less expensive. This is why you can order DNA testing for yourself and your dog. Sorry for going on so long...happens to be something I know a lot about.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Here is the link to the courses being offered. The first general one began yesterday, but I have read if you sign up for the Poodle course you can get this one free. I also read if you can sign up with a "buddy" the price goes from $95 to $82. I think if what I have read is correct, I am going to sign up for it too.
http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/courses.html


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I just signed up!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Tiny Poodles said:


> So I guess that means us Tpoo parents belong on a different forum lol!


Hahaha, T/P! Or... for some of us Standard owners, a whole different world!  lol


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Countryboy said:


> Hahaha, T/P! Or... for some of us Standard owners, a whole different world!  lol


I would be upset that they have completely different genes because I am pretty sure that it was standard poodles that they speak of when they say that they came in number two in dog IQ testing - except for the fact that the day that they did the testing at the dog gym that we used to go to, Tpoo Taylee came in number ONE out of 300 dogs tested, so if we have to be different, I can live with being number one instead of number two lol!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Here's another continuing education opportunity pertaining to dog genetics. 
CHF Sponsors Tufts Canine and Feline Breeding and Genetics Conference | AKC Canine Health Foundation
The latest research on cat and dog genetics—and its related impact on health and breeding—will be presented by more than a dozen world-renowned experts at a two-day conference on September 27-29 in Boston, Mass.

Led by Jerold S. Bell, D.V.M., a clinical associate professor in the department of clinical sciences at the Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University, the conference will include sessions on genetic disorders, management of genetic diseases, canine hip dysplasia, and population genetics of breeds.


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## Sweetp (Mar 23, 2013)

I found the Swedish study fascinating!

From this study it appears that not only is the standard poodle different from the other poodle groups, but because of breeding practices in the US the standard poodle here is not as differentiated from small sized poodles as they are in Europe.


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## Poodlecat (Jul 22, 2012)

*Island Population Genetics*

Google it "Island Population Genetics"

Google is your friend.

Here's a hint: Founder effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And congrats to any that are willing to open their minds to something other than listening to hearsay from fellow minded fans gathered around the water cooler.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Although the Wikipedia entry Poodlecat provided the link to is a very good explanation of the founder effect in population genetics, it doesn't mention a couple of familiar and interesting examples of founder populations and island biogeography that some of you may be familiar with and find helpful as illustrations of the concept. The founder effect is one of two sources of limited variability in a gene pool. The other is called a bottleneck. A bottleneck occurs when a population experiences an environmental stressor that drastically reduces the size of the population. When that stressor is removed the population is often able to recover its previous size, but cannot recover the lost alleles. Cheetahs seem clearly to have experienced a bottleneck at some point in time. The mitochondrial eve concept is also based on the premise of a bottleneck having affected early hominids. 

Darwin's finches as well as the tortoises of the Galapagos are the descendants of small populations that arrived in the archipelago from Ecuador (probably carried by storms). These small populations arrived in a sparsely populated landscape that offered abundant opportunity. As the populations grew and moved to new islands they adapted to the unique ecological resources of the separate islands. Now when they move back and forth among the islands the finches are recognized as separate species not only because of their unique phenotypes but because they are genetically unable to interbreed. Inability to produce fertile offspring (reproductive or gene pool isolation) when hybridizing is one of the cornerstones of defining species. In the case of the tortoises, sailors reaching the Galapagos in the 19th century often relied on their knowledge of the unique tortoises as an aid to know which of the islands they had reached.

% Wycliffe is in some ways an example of the founder effect and in others a bottleneck. Wycliffe dogs are the founders, but they are founders because of the pressure of their perceived/actual desirability at the time the kennel was active (this was the bottleneck, breeders choosing to limit the gene pool from which to breed).


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