# Accidents happen...



## princess.paisley (May 13, 2018)

Hello PF friends, I haven’t wanted to post about my situation recently in fear of receiving negative feedback or comments. But I need to ask for some advice as you all, always steer me in the right direction. 

So as you may know I have two standards, a male and a female. No, I was not planning to breed them. When she is in heat and I’m not home I always keep my female in a doggie diaper, locked in the bedroom, and behind a baby gate; and I keep both of my intact males in their crates. (One is not a poodle) Long story short I came home to the the doggie diaper on the floor, the bedroom door wide open, the baby gate knocked down, and one of the panels on the crate folded in resulting in it being wide open! Thankfully it was my male poodle’s crate and not the mixed breed’s. I was really hoping that nothing happened but when she started putting on weight, there was no denying it! 

Fast forward to now, and we have 7 beautiful standard poodle puppies. The four boys came out like daddy, brown but I’m sure will fade (except one who is exceptionally dark, the fading gene may have skipped him). The three girls came out black like mom (I’m expecting at least one to fade as she has white hairs in her paw pads). 

Since I wasn’t planning to breed my dogs, they are not health tested. Because of this, (and not wanting to contribute to the doodle craze) I’m selling all the puppies on spay/neuter contracts. (return contracts as well) With that being said what is the best age to spay and neuter standards? Also do I need to or should I, have the contracts signed by a notary to make them more official? 

I will ask my veterinarian his opinion on the spay/neuter age during their last vet visit for shots at 8 weeks old. The vet did remove their dew claws at 3 days old but I left the tails natural. They have been to the vet for 2 week, 4 week, and 6 week check ups with them all being perfectly healthy. I have groomed them once but will be grooming them again before they go home. They are all spoken for with deposits placed. I did register the litter with CKC so I can not limit their registration that’s another reason for the contracts. (yes, crappy continental kennel club, as I like to call it)

Have any of you ever had any experiences with puppy parents not following through with the contracts that they’ve signed? If so, what course of action did you take? 


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## katmcg86 (Apr 23, 2019)

Regarding contracts: you could require joint ownership/registration of the dog until sterilization is confirmed. That way, if a person had intentions to breed one of your puppies, they would not be able to register the offspring without your sign off. Not a fail safe, but an extra layer of protection.

I have no idea if anyone does this, but another idea that popped into my head was that you could have your buyers pay a “spay/neuter deposit” that is returned to them upon providing proof of sterilization.

Not exactly what you asked, but maybe some ideas to hopefully increase your confidence that your buyers will honor the contract!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi,

Many questions here to go over .

In no particular order....



princess.paisley said:


> I did register the litter with CKC


If the sire and dam are AKC registered the pups can be registered AKC.



princess.paisley said:


> Since I wasn’t planning to breed my dogs, they are not health tested.


If _their_ sires and dams were health tested using the OFA/Chic standards and/or DNA testing, and are clear/normal/good in those tests that's some help in figuring the pups likely future health.








Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Browse our Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) to view disease statistics for various dog breeds. Contribute to the database by ordering a DNA test.




www.ofa.org





Usually the testing is done prior but you or the new families can have DNA health testing done thru several reputable labs, PawPrint and Embark are the first two to come to mind.





Paw Print Genetics - Tests for Poodle


Canine genetic disease, trait, and coat color tests for the breed: Poodle.




www.pawprintgenetics.com




This doesn't cover the OFA/CHIC testing but the new families can be advised of minimum health considerations to watch for:

Standard Minimum Testing Criteria
Hip Dysplasia evaluation from an approved agency
Eye clearance by the Companion Animal Eye Registry (CAER)
Plus Health Elective (At least one of the following tests):
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist
Congenital Cardiac Exam
Advanced Cardiac Exam

More health info here:





Health - Versatility In Poodles - Health, Research, Education


Poodle Health - VIP is dedicated to providing you with information on health issues affecting Poodles. We support health research, provide educational material and support rescue organizations and needs. We have a bimonthly newsletter and an active membership.




vipoodle.org







princess.paisley said:


> what is the best age to spay and neuter standards?


There's a number of threads discussing current science and best age for this. Generally, for males and females both, there seems to be no medical advantage to spay or neuter before physical maturity and some good reasons to wait til then. That means as long as two years in some. This thread has a lot of information: Re visiting spaying age



princess.paisley said:


> I’m selling all the puppies on spay/neuter contracts


Any contract notwithstanding, whether signed, notarized, written in stone, is only as enforceable as the terms of consequence are written. Legally enforceable consequences are the only protection for those pups in a contract.
Otherwise, this is why some breeders require proof of spay or neuter before releasing papers, and as you know, the ckc (not Canadian) is not thought of well enough to be a deterrent. Not being able to register as purebred in the AKC has a bit more bite.
Last resort, least healthful upfront for those pups but your only guarantee is to do a very, very, very early s/n before releasing them to their new families. Hopefully that won't even be considered since you'll be vetting the new families and trust them to do right.



princess.paisley said:


> I will ask my veterinarian his opinion on the spay/neuter age


After reading thru so many threads here and researching the topic for my own boys, it isn't unusual for your vet to _not_ be the best source for that information. If your vet tells you that 6 months is a good age, they are not current with studies coming from the teaching universities such as UCDavis.
Waiting for the bone growth plates to close, allowing the full set of hormones to do their job in the body before spay/neuter is going to push that age up later.



princess.paisley said:


> Have any of you ever had any experiences with puppy parents not following through with the contracts that they’ve signed?


I'm not a breeder but have looked at this topic a number of times for other members. Here's a couple of resources:


Dogs and Contracts – Marquette University Law School Faculty Blog




http://www.lawfordogs.com/assets/PDFs/Dog_Breeders.pdf





princess.paisley said:


> but I left the tails natural. They have been to the vet for 2 week, 4 week, and 6 week check ups with them all being perfectly healthy. I have groomed them once but will be grooming them again before they go home.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I would probably have the buyers pay a spay/neuter deposit which will be returned to them once it is done. Though I don't particularly care for this method, your vet could do an early spay/neuter on them. This would prohibit any breeding. Stuff happens and we just manage the best we can. Enjoy your pups.


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