# Red Dam w/blk points, Red Sire w/liver points.. Puppies?



## bree94 (11 mo ago)

Hello Everyone! I'm conversing with an AKC breeder on the search for a red female standard poodle with black points, from a pedigree where the parents don't clear (or fade). I've found a breeder in California who has a great history of reds that don't fade with black points. They come from a long like of reds w/ black points! 

The sire she had in the past (when I found her) has retired. He was a red, that didn't fade, with black points. Her females are reds with black points that haven't faded either. 

She just had a litter last week with 6 females and I'm so excited since I'm second in line for a pick! My concern is I just found out the sire of this litter is a red with liver / pink points. This is also her first litter using him so I haven't seen any past litter pictures. 

*QUESTION:*
I don't know much about how liver points develop or are passed on. Will it be apparent at 6-8 weeks if/what puppies will have lifelong liver noses? I just don't want to pick a pup with black points, then have her nose turn liver / pink down the road. Any information would be appreciated!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Until someone with knowledge drops by, This link might offer some insight. The second chart down is the one to look thru along with the info.

The whole site is interesting but the info you're looking for might be addressed starting here:

*Poodle Color Inheritance*








Genetics behind Coat Color


The images are to show coat color only .



super-novas-standard-poodles.weebly.com





It seems unlikely to my limited understanding that the genes determining points would change after birth.

There is another condition, I don't remember atm what causes it without looking at my research, that can cause nose color to change after birth. That's called "snow nose". This happened to my Remo.









At over 4y old now, it seems to have settled to this


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

OP is correct that young puppies often lack pigmentation on their noses. So the liver/black may be hard to distinguish until a certain age. I think pigmentation typically develops by 6 weeks so you should be able tell by 8 weeks for sure.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I do believe the only color that doesn't clear, (and that is the proper term because fading is like sun bleaching) is white, a red poodle will never stay that mahogany red without help as in coloring shampoo. You want to see Red poodles that are well past 2 years, as in 3 years or older even then.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Snow nose and liver points are two different things genetically. It sounds like the sire had liver points, and you are concerned about whether the puppies will also have liver points. The best article I've read on the topic is at Dog Coat Colour Genetics. Red with liver points depends on the interaction of the B locus and the E locus. A dog that tests bb and ee will have liver points and a coat in some shade of cream/apricot/red.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

bree94 said:


> Hello Everyone! I'm conversing with an AKC breeder on the search for a red female standard poodle with black points, from a pedigree where the parents don't clear (or fade). I've found a breeder in California who has a great history of reds that don't fade with black points. They come from a long like of reds w/ black points!
> 
> The sire she had in the past (when I found her) has retired. He was a red, that didn't fade, with black points. Her females are reds with black points that haven't faded either.
> 
> ...


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I may not have answered the OP clearly. I understood their concern to be:


bree94 said:


> Will it be apparent at 6-8 weeks if/what puppies will have_ lifelong_ liver noses? I just don't want to _pick a pup with black points, then have her nose turn liver / pink down the road_


As noted, it can take time for the color to establish but once it does, a black nose isn't likely to turn liver nor a liver nose turn black,_ down the road. _

As I understood their question, once the color from inherited genes is visibly established, is there a chance that another (genetic) change will happen to cause the nose to change. 
I see their question as "Can _BBee, Bbee turn into bbee?" _

I mentioned snow nose as the only change I'm aware of that could come into play down the road, and that I believe would be from a different cause.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

True liver points mean that the dog is genetically brown where black points mean the dog is genetically black. Brown is recessive, so the father is bb. The mother could be BB or Bb. 
If the mom is BB, all the pups will have black points but will carry brown/ liver points.
If the mom is Bb, the pups have a 50% chance of having brown/liver or black points.

Has the mother had DNA testing?

If you look at the pups and some have black noses, they will stay black (except for snow nose, which is not liver of course). Pups with lighter noses could change to either liver or black.


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## bree94 (11 mo ago)

Thank you for all of the responses! I apologize, for the delayed response was just keeping an eye out for email notifications and they had went to spam. 

@Rose n Poos --Remo is a cutie! My friend has a yellow Lab with snow nose. We were all confused because as a puppy she had that little black button nose. It's settled much like Remo's nose now though.  Which the more I look around seems to be fairly common! And your second answer is also on point, that was my concern. A puppy having black points at 8 weeks, then going liver after some time. After reading through the genetic color website, plus @cowpony and @Starvt 's posts too -it looks like once they reach 8 weeks old we should be able to tell and they won't convert from black points to liver points!

@twyla -So interesting! I didn't know clearing was so prominent in poodles until recently. I've always been aware of it with "grey" horses and have witnessed their transformation multiple times. Most white horses out there are actually "greys", they are born a dark color and grey out quickly. 

I've been reading white coats don't fade and then I think I've read there are some "true black" genetics out there that don't fade. My grandmother had two toy black poodles (Babi & Lexi) while I was growing up and they stayed jet black until their senior years --then they got the typical grey around their lips /eyes. I'm excited about these puppies because her dogs come from a long line of reds, and both sire / dam are over 3 and have retained their color really well. 

@Starvt -I believe she has, I will ask! Already though, at least half the females were born with very prominent black points.

Also fun news, she has two litters and a female just became available from the other litter where both parents have solid black points and their pups are proven to retain black points with a red coat! Since I'm next in line for a pick, when they get a little older I can take my pick from that female or one of these questionable liver pups. I'm so excited! You guys have definitely help put my mind to ease. I just placed a deposit today! 

Pictures and lots of grooming questions to come!


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