# So which is it?



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

While some traits will be more common within a breed, within every breed you'll find every temperament.

My mpoo puppy is "slow" by my standards. I'm used to terriers which tend to learn very quickly. But, he learns more thoroughly and takes fewer repetitions and much less time training. Until 2 weeks ago (5 months old) I was very concerned about his progress.

Tug games are a GREAT motivator and can completely replace food. In many cases it is a better reward than food.

But tug played wrong can demotivate a puppy. I recommend anything by Mike Ellis or Ivan Balabanov on puppy or tug training. You can buy DVDs, there are lots of videos on YouTube also.

Your puppy might be one of those brilliant dogs that learns how to train people before the people learn how to train the dog! Hang in there and keep trying.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I believe Leroy isn't "by the books." He's slow to pick things up and execute them. But I think he knows more than he let's on. It's kinda like the kids who put no effort into school or studying but somehow pass the tests and get by. A man at the dog park told me how impressed he was cause I was more than 30 feet away and asked Leroy to "come" with a subtle hand gesture and causal tone. He was hanging out with people, two other dogs, and engrossed in chewing grass. He came over right to me. I wasn't yelling, shouting, or had treats. The man told me how his dog never listened even if his dog was right next to him. Leroy sometimes doesn't listen when he's distracted in the backyard, but he eveutally does what I want. He also has a quirky personality with other things. I also never officially practiced recall with him.

Your puppy is still young and you will be going through many stages of puppyhood, adolescence, and adulthood. There was a point where Leroy "forgot" the crate command (to go into his crate), but that's when he was pushing boundaries. Just keep things fun and try not to get frustrated, they pick up on that! 

Btw, everything depends on the dog's personality!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

pgr8dnlvr said:


> Before I got a poodle I of coarse researched the generalizations about their temperment. What I kept hearing was that they are quick to train, very smart, loving and wanting to be with their people.
> 
> Now that I've got one, I'm noticing more and more posts about the common tendancy for quirks of running away when not on leash, not letting their owners pick them up to take them inside, basically being pugnacious and trying to find their own ways to get around doing what their owners want...
> 
> ...



I love posts like this ... they generally appear when I am thinking "gee, wouldn't having a puppy again be fun?" :smile:

Poodles are all that. Very smart, very trainable, but with more of a "why?" in their makeup than your average Golden or GSD. My answer is usually "because it's fun!!" Which means making training the MOST FUN EVER. 

For housetraining, it's always tempting to think that because the dog has had three or five or ten successful days, the training is over. It's not. The dog has to build a strong habit of eliminating outside, and that takes time. Keep being vigilant and make every elimination outside the cause for the happy dance and a party with the puppy.

What are you trying for food treats in training? Most commercial treats are pretty blah. I use wonderful stinky things for training ... homemade liver cake (search the forum for the instructions), smelly cheese, bits of hot dog or sausage, tiny bits of bacon fried crisp, boiled chicken, leftover crispy duck from a Chinese meal, etc. The greasier and smellier the better. Now is the time to build in a desire in the dog to work for food, as it is just SO much easier to train with food than with toys. You can do the latter, it's just more work for you.

At 10 weeks, your pup has the attention span of a gnat. Very very short sessions, lots of fun, some super treats, that's your goal. Poodle puppies flit like little butterflies, but they are all about the fun. 

Good luck!


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## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

*Really long rambling post on smart vs trainability.*

Dogs don't read the books, only people do and then set up expectations for their relationship. The person who wrote the book never trained or owned your puppy, you do. So your experience will be different.

First your 2 specific problems, because then I start to ramble .

I think your problems are actually interconnected, and due to the size of your dog. Toys are very, very different to train due to the size, the fragility, and the food. A tiny dog, needs to go outside more often, and will a lot of times be able to give less warning about it. A 10 week old puppy has practically no bladder control anyway. House training in my opinion falls on the consistency of the owners until the puppy is around 6 months old and has more adult like control. Each week gets better, as they can hold it longer. But until they have control, watching keeps everything operating smoothly.

Then with the food issue, again, toys have a tiny stomach. If they're full they won't be driven to eat. When I first got Ramses (who was 2.5 pounds at 10 weeks) I thought he had no food drive either. It took a lot of experimenting to figure out he liked diced roasted chicken (diced to the size of a pea or smaller), diced liver (his absolute favorite), turkey lunch meat, and string cheese. I fed him 4 times a day, and would train him for 3 -5 minutes before feeding him. Within a week he learned to sit, down, stand, and touch in these tiny training sessions, but more importantly he learned to connect with me and that training was fun. It's very important with a puppy to not overtrain. Counting out 10 treats for 12-15 repetitions is plenty for a little baby. I know you're having trouble with hypoglycemia, so if you're feeding more often than 4 times a day, pick the 2 times she seems hungriest and train then. Ramses is a night eater, even now at almost 10 months he has me trained to give him a midnight snack .

Poodles are extremely intelligent, they're brilliant actually. But intelligence doesn't always go along with easy to train. An average dog will get what you say, learn it, and commit it to memory. A brilliant dog will get what you say, learn it, and then ask WHY? If they don't think your reason is right, they might suggest an alternate behavior that they think is amazingly better (a lot of times it will indeed be more efficient). 

The first thing to look at with any breed is what it's job was. In my house I have 3 distinct job groupings. The first, my pom. Her job (and I'm talking a historic job, remember, toys were bred down from working dogs and still have those instincts) was of course to be an alert dog, to pull, and to stay alive in the cold. I see all these these expressed in her barking at noises, her need to be first and to go go go, and most importantly or often, her genetic need to eat as much as possible. With northern dogs, food is scarce, leaving any food uneaten can be a death sentence later. There is not a day that goes by that she doesn't steal food. When I train her, she is insanely food motivated but she much prefers to blaze her own trail and do it her own way. Training goes best with her when I convince her that she's training me to give her treats, not me training her to do something. When presented with a problem, she dives right in and barrels to a solution whether it's right or wrong, safe or dumb. 

Lance, is mostly German Shepherd (he also has some chow and probably malamute in there). Shepherds were bred to be all around farm guardians, working dogs, herding dogs, and to keep everyone safe. Lance is convinced that if I ask him to do something that is the final word until death. This also means to him that if he needs a solution to a problem he asks me. His goal in life is: Keep me happy, keep everyone safe. He trains best with guidance in what is correct and if I don't give him that guidance he gets nervous. He will offer behaviors but is happiest with rules. No rules, or broken or bent rules drives him nuts. (Living with the pom, and her blatant disregard for rules drives him nuts.) He is the easiest to train, by far because he trusts me completely and my judgement. When presented with a problem he first looks to me, and then to what is the safest solution, and proceeds with caution.

Poodles, of course was bred for field work in his history. Along with that went a myriad of farm chores (people wouldn't have more than one dog unless they were wealthy). To succeed and live on to produce another generation, he had to prove he was biddable to people but not a blind follower. He had to be tenacious and focused on what his job was. A hunter couldn't waste arrows or bullets on a bird only to have the dog give up on the retrieve. A hunter also couldn't trust or hunt with a dog who would take the hunters word that the birds were in the left hand copse, when in reality they were in the right hand copse. The dog needed to have the guts to go against the handler and not agree that the handler was right, when he was wrong. If he didn't do that, no one would get dinner that night. Ramses gets what I tell him to do in 2 tries. Anything I say and he's got it. Possibly only one. But, I have to keep myself interesting to get him to play the game, or else he'll change the game into something he thinks is more fun. This means I have to try to move faster than him. Repetition is boring to a dog like this. So are long training sessions, short and sweet switching from one thing to the next and keeping him surprised work best. Working him so that I reward his tenacity in retrieving, reward his speed and thinking, and keep it all moving enough to intrigue him is key 

And if you made it this far reading this way too long post, good for you .


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Oceanrose, those were some of the best dog descriptions!! Especially the Pomeranian.

I describe Leroy as slow, but maybe he's thinking. He always stops before acting. When we go for a walk, he doesn't bolt out the door. He walks out and surveys things. When he sees someone leaving a gated area, he waits by the gate to see what the person is doing. He understands they will come right back (a friend went to go get something from the car) and he didn't follow them but waited at the gate cause he knew they'd come back. He also doesn't blindly follow me up and down the stairs. He either waits at the top or the second landing cause he knows I go back and forth. That's why I say he "eventually" does a command. When I dogsat Oscar (shep-collie mix) he was so ready and willing to do his repertoire of tricks when I got treats out. He always gets a very focused, wild look to his eyes. Louis (Havanese) was jumping and dancing and going nuts. Of course Leroy was standing quietly behind them wondering what the treats were for. 

I agree about the differences with training toys and large dogs. Toys can be trained easily, they just take a different approach! I need to train Louis now!


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Thanks SO SO MUCH Ocean!!! Your kind of post is exactly what I was looking for. I would take a long winded thorough post over a short direct one anyday! I know I'll be re-reading it a few times too, trying to disect it!

So you really think a toy dog of 10 weeks has almost no control? I find it so foreign that big dog breeds can have such control by that age whereas little ones dont seem to care much at all. 

Here's an interesting thing I've come across. I've been using the Ian Dunbar expen approach, leaving her kennel, food, water, toy section and a pan with sod in it available at all times. For the first two weeks (aside from when she was hospitalized for hypoglycemia) she did AWESOME with going on the sod. All of the sudden though, I'm finding that she's peeing in her pen anywhere (except her kennel of coarse). I can beat her (ie. catch her as soon as she comes out of the kennel and get her outside before her feet touch the pen) most of the time, but when I don't she's not using the sod anymore. Why would she "get it" so well before, then quit all the sudden?

All I can assume is that we went back to pee pads while on a 4 day trip and perhaps that messed her up? Though the first two days after we came back she used the sod fine...

Now about feeding. You mentioned the foods you found out your little one liked. I worry so much about nutrition. I have found a few foods this one likes including scrambled egg, cooked cod fillet, beef jerky, and ham, but honestly how do I make sure she gets enough calcium and minerals when she's trying to pick out the "yummy food" first and leaving a lot of the proper "dog food"? Will she have enough calcium for her bones? I certainly don't want her even more fragile than she is. One of my biggest concerns though is not creating one of those holy terror little dogs that makes you do or give them whatever they want, am I not doing that by letting her eat people food?

When you said your little one learned the standard "tricks" within a week, was that starting training at 10 weeks or? I am trying the lure method for getting her to sit, but she seems to be made of springs of coarse wanting to bounce or jump. I try to reward even accidental sits, but I just dont know if I should perhaps push her bottom down with my hand and call that a sit? How did you teach yours to sit? What cues/methods did you use?

Any more tips, insight or advice you have would be greatly appreciated!

Rebecca


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## Laceypoo (Aug 23, 2011)

You are getting a lot of good information here. Just wanted to add that I think your dog is still very young and, also, that sometimes training is easier to me with small dogs such as toy poodles if you start them on something higher like a bed or sofa. Start your sit, down and stay. Then move to the floor when they have gotten it. Somehow I think it is easier because they are closer to your level. Might give it a try!!!! Potty training just takes time!!!


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## stealthq (Aug 4, 2011)

Chiming in because I can commiserate re: poodles == smart and trainable.

Kohl is not as quick to pick things up as I would have thought he'd be. He is eager for the treat in my hand (now, he wasn't to begin with), so that isn't the problem. He just isn't as quick to pick things up as my former Sheltie, or my mother's current Sheltie pup. His memory for commands also doesn't seem to be good. If a day or two goes by and he hasn't done X, he forgets and needs to be reminded how to do X.

He's funny, and goofy, and incredibly clumsy - I think he spends half his time picking himself up off the floor and crashing into things. To be honest, he reminds me a lot of the 'bull in a china shop' lab pups I've been around, but he's a lot more excitable. I think that he's mentally much more immature than the Sheltie pups were at the same age and I've been trying to adjust my expectations to match, but probably am not doing a good job of it.


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## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

Answers in pink 
So you really think a toy dog of 10 weeks has almost no control? I find it so foreign that big dog breeds can have such control by that age whereas little ones dont seem to care much at all. 

I don't think it's a matter of caring, as the point that toys mature slower. A lot of toy breeders won't let their pups go till 10-14 weeks because of this. The world is a different place for a toy, and they're programmed differently. They're more aware of their surroundings and probably more focused on people, but it's a 'get up and be held' kind of way. And potty training they definitely don't have as much control.


All of the sudden though, I'm finding that she's peeing in her pen anywhere (except her kennel of coarse). I can beat her (ie. catch her as soon as she comes out of the kennel and get her outside before her feet touch the pen) most of the time, but when I don't she's not using the sod anymore. Why would she "get it" so well before, then quit all the sudden?


How big is the pen? It might be a little bit too big for her to want to confine potty to the sod. Are you rewarding her for pottying there? I'd go ahead and use potty pads on the rest of the area and slowly reduce (1 a week). I'd also start rewarding her heavily when you do see her using the sod. The other thing, is that behavior might be going into long term memory, sometimes pups will slide back at that point. 

Now about feeding. You mentioned the foods you found out your little one liked. I worry so much about nutrition. 


If you're really worried about nutrition, consider using a canned puppy or cat food that is soft. You can train with it by either drying it out in the over, or else simply use a tiny spoon or chopstick to reward her with (a dab on the end will do). I feel like a varied diet is the best, so except for things on the nono list my dogs get everything we eat, even down to McDonalds ice cream for a once in awhile treat :angel2: I feel like if the base is healthy the rest evens out. Much like our diet. Because I don't stick to one treat or another, I don't worry about excesses, or lack of minerals.

One of my biggest concerns though is not creating one of those holy terror little dogs that makes you do or give them whatever they want, am I not doing that by letting her eat people food?

People food doesn't create a holy terror, but a lack of training will. So will letting a puppy beg, or not creating boundaries around it. I am comfortable with my dogs sitting or lying nearby waiting for me to get done with dinner. Others aren't and just never would feed them after dinner . It's all in the boundaries. People food in it's place can be a great training tool. If you are uncomfortable though, like I said the canned food (less than a pea at a time) can be used). Ramses get a tiny bite of our cats canned food every day when we feed the cats, and all the dogs get a couple tablespoons of canned tripe mixed into their regular food (Orijen).

When you said your little one learned the standard "tricks" within a week, was that starting training at 10 weeks or? I am trying the lure method for getting her to sit, but she seems to be made of springs of coarse wanting to bounce or jump. I try to reward even accidental sits, but I just dont know if I should perhaps push her bottom down with my hand and call that a sit? How did you teach yours to sit? What cues/methods did you use?

Yes, I start training the day I get a puppy. Though the first couple days I work on the baby's name, and on watching me. I reward and talk to them every time they focus on me. After that I start teaching the basics. It sounds like you need to lure her back holding the treat or object of interest very close to her nose. Putting her on something high is a good idea, or else I like to sit on the floor with the puppy and train. I start with luring the sit, and take my bite of food letting the puppy smell it and then keeping it right in front of their nose (even close enough they might try to nibble) I work it back directly over their head, raising it slightly as I go. They'll try to back up, but will eventually sit. If they keep backing, I'll put my other hand in back to stop them and they'll go into the sit. Praise and do it again. Once they're sitting I either lure the down, or else clicker train the down (clicker training is actually better for down, but it takes longer). To lure it I start with the puppy in a sit and lower the treat down and out. Keep the treat under control, the puppy may try to stand, if they do, try again. Down is harder than sit to lure, and a harder behavior for them to learn.

I train stand again by luring but working a finger underneath to get them to stand. It's important to work each behavior separately the first few training sessions so they don't get confused. This is also a great time to get the puppy used to a clicker and shape these behaviors instead. That is great fun for the puppy, and actually easier. My one caution with pure clicker training is make sure you get used to them working with your hands on them and around them. I didn't do that with my pom, and she is horrible about being touched while I train her - still!


Any more tips, insight or advice you have would be greatly appreciated!

Just keep going, and don't worry about mistakes. Can you locate a small breed training group or playgroup? That will make everything a lot easier. Remember how small she is and how big the world looks. Things like jumping up toward you is her way of closing the gap. Stay on her level and work with her there. I'd also talk to Pammipoodle who has some awesome videos up of her toy Lumi on youtube showing clicker training, and teaching focus. Hopefully she won't mind me posting this one.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

pgr8dnlvr said:


> I am trying the lure method for getting her to sit, but she seems to be made of springs of coarse wanting to bounce or jump. I try to reward even accidental sits, but I just dont know if I should perhaps push her bottom down with my hand and call that a sit? How did you teach yours to sit? What cues/methods did you use?
> Rebecca



I'm wondering if you are holding the lure too high if she feels the need to jump up to get it? Try training her while sitting on the floor, hold the lure right in front if her nose, and then bring it up over her head where she can still reach it, but don't let go. I use a closed fist so my puppy was trying to lick and gnaw at my fist to open it the whole time as I lured the sit, that might stop yours from jumping.

Secondly, are you using a clicker? I've found training new behaviours much much easier when I use the clicker.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Truly excellent advice from oceanrose. I'd only add that at 10 weeks, she's a baby, so adjust your expectations accordingly. Training should be as much about building the bond with her as with teaching behaviours. Have fun with your puppy!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Absolutely spot on advice from OceanRose. Luring is much safer than manhandling, especially with a toy puppy. I found my toys took much longer to get bladder control than larger dogs, perhaps because of the tiny size of their bladders. And you do need to rethink some of the training methods - it is much easier to work sitting on the floor with them than standing up, for example. 

If you are worried about ensuring she gets a balanced diet, have you thought of measuring out balanced food and treats in the morning, and using them up through the day? I used to do it with kibble, and then moved on to weighing a daily allowance of meat, bone, liver cake, cheese, etc that was reasonably balanced, but enabled me to ring the changes on treats - liver cake, scraps of cheese, cooked chicken or other meat - while knowing she was getting plenty of nutrients.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Oceanrose is spot on. That is what surprised me the most was potty training a toy. It takes much longer than a bigger dog. My Aussie was trained after 3 days and totally reliable. With my toy he can't hold it as long and his control was iffy for a while. What makes it really hard is they are so tiny they can pee right in front of you and since there is so little liquid and my guy didn't squat or lift his leg it was easy to miss. I give high value treats not that dog store junk. I must say though that Swizzle picks up commands very fast and retains them. The key is short sessions and make it fun. For a sit or down if you see the dog is going to sit or lie down say the command as she is doing it and reward. I agree I would not manhandle into position - they are so tiny and delicate.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Pgr8dnlvr, I hope you're still in the market for loooong posts! ; ) You've got a lot of great advice here already! I think you sort of answered one of your own questions in the first post with "*generalizations* about the breed.." Of course your girl will not fit perfectly in one category or another, because she's an individual and those other descriptions are generalizations! : ) She's going to keep surprising you, no matter how much you read! Of course, keep reading - just try not to trap her in any kind of label. : ) 

As far as dogs trying to "get their own way" and "get around what their owners want", well, that's to be expected from any intelligent, sentient being and *not* necessarily an act of rebellion. The best way to have a "well-behaved" dog is to make sure that what you want *is* what they want! If you find Lucy is resisting you, you only need to make the behaviors you want the obviously most rewarding choice for her. It may take her time to understand, being that she's just a baby, but in the meantime, she's not "fighting" you. : ) Rebellion happens, but not at this age, and recalcitrant, bratty adult dogs do exist, but they don't become that way overnight, and rarely are they hardwired to be that way. It's usually only after a great number of experiences teaching them that the only way they can get what they want or have their desired experiences is by demanding them. Show her a plethora of acceptable ways to get treats and life rewards from you (NILIF!) from you and she won't develop a habit of demanding her own way. : ) So, in other words, don't worry about her turning into a "nightmare" (I had the same worry about baby Lumi - I can relate!). Just keep learning and teaching and being consistent and Lucy will turn out just wonderful! : )

**Lumi is my first puppy, and she's about 10 months old and I wouldn't trust her housebreaking 100% yet, so take this section with a grain of salt - but this is what I've gathered so far from these months and lots of others' advice.** With house training, I don't think you're "done" until close to a year of age. You'll have "winning streaks" but accidents WILL happen because the training is not complete, and darn it, sometimes a puppy's gotta do what a puppy's gotta do! Occasional accidents are not a sign that you're on the wrong path, but really just opportunities for Lucy to be reminded "nope, that's still not the place to go". Also, Lumi had a knack for goofing up in groups. She'd do great for weeks, then have two or three accidents in the course of one or two days! It was so weird and scary like I thought everything was going wrong, but I guess she was just trying it on. After a few reminders of "nope, that's *still* not the place to go" she realized it actually was easier to get to her potty spot than to try to be lazy and do it in the living room only to be interrupted. Ever been interrupted while going to the bathroom? It's really not fun! : P

How is she doing now with the sod/pads in her pen? I was thinking maybe, just like you said, she got accustomed to using the pads after your trip and when she couldn't find them just gave up and went. I'd try placing a pad next to or on top of the sod, and if she's using it, gradually reduce the size of it or tuck it under the sod until it's gone and she's using the sod again. I like Oceanrose's suggestion, too! (As well as everything else she had to say - very helpful!)

Aw, I'm sure Lucy is not "dense"! : ) She's a baby and to her many things may seem more fun than sitting in front of you - especially if, as others have mentioned, her tummy is full! I gave Lumi treats the size of a BB, usually, and she worked happily for less than that! I considered them more "flavor shots" than actual treats. The tiny crumb of freeze dried liver seemed to dissolve on her tongue before she could swallow it, but boy did she work for it! : ) Make sure Lucy has a lot of room in her tummy, and that the snack is very special and tasty! Also, some behaviors it seems "do not compute" with such tiny toy puppies! Lumi *would not* "down" for the world! I was so frustrating. No matter how low I put the treat or how I moved it toward her or away from her, it was just never easier for her to lay down to get it (why many large breed dogs plop down on their chests when lured by a treat on the floor). Toy puppies are already "on the floor"! The only way I could do it was by sitting on my butt and luring Lumi under my outstretched leg which only allowed her about 2-3 inches clearance, forcing her to "crouch", which was at least close to down! hahaha The alternative would be capturing the behavior, but I was just too eager to teach her the basics to wait for her to lay down! : P Remember, there's no rule that she has to learn "this" then "that", feel free to focus on something that home more naturally to her (even just a perfect "stand" or a pretty "twirl"). As she learns to learn, she'll be more eager to offer different behaviors to you. : ) If you're frustrated by something, move on. Neither of you will be in the right head space. 

And, no, I would not suggest pushing her bum down or and other type of physical manipulation. Aside from her being so fragile, this could build a habit in her of being overly responsive to touch and pulling or shrinking away when being touched or manipulated by the vet or groomer which can make things difficult. Oppositional reflex is your friend. : P

Oceanrose, of course I don't mind! Glad if my videos can be of any help (or just entertainment) to anyone! : ) I watch them now and realize "Gee, she had a great attention span!" I don't think most puppies of that age last that long. Meanwhile, at the time, I'm thinking "She's never going to learn!" "She's not getting it!" Hahaha Puppies make us all insane, I guess. It's SO great to have a place like this to share!


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Remember, the biggest part of training a dog (or any animal) to me, is asking yourself 'How do I explain this to the dog?' Every animal is an individual, you will need to experiment to see what works for your dog. What works for my Paige does not necessarily work for Bug. I taught Paige to sit in front of me and then spin in both directions. I tried the same thing with Bug and he almost set himself on fire trying to sit and spin on his hiney. He could not get it through his head that I wanted him to stand up to spin, he tried it unsuccessfully while darn near giving himself rug burn on his bum. 

My GSD is a whole different set of training challenges. It's all up to how they are able to process what you are wanting them to do. 

Your little tiny baby 10 week old truly does have the attention span of a gnat, bear with her, it wil get better. 

A quick note on the sod issue. Have you changed the piece of sod or is it the same one you've been using all along? If it's the same one, it may smell terrible to her, if it's different, it may just smell all wrong. You may need to scent it for her with a few drops of her urine (maybe try to get a few drops off the floor with a syringe and squirt it on the sod). I use potty pads with Bug, but he 'walks' when pooing and therefore misses the pads sometimes. Thank Dog he's getting better at going outside.


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

Interesting thread.  I was actually thinking about posting something along the same lines myself last week.

"Attention span of a gnat" is exactly the way I describe Cali (6-month old mpoo). She's my first Poodle, I've always had Rottweilers. She learns new things incredibly fast but is of the "okay I can do it, but WHY?" camp. I was finding training her incredibly frustrating until I started a new obedience class last week. 

I couldn't find anyone who owned Poodles running a course but I did find someone who's successfully trialling PWD in obedience, rally-o and agility. I figured since PWD are related to Poodles that she may be able to shed some light. She told me that Poodle brains and Rottweiler brains are two entirely different beings. LOL 

I've been approaching Cali's training like I would a Rottie, lots of treats and lots of repetitions. Rotties are so food-motivated they'll repeat a behaviour a 100 times if there's a treat involved! Cali is not particularily food-motivated and after doing an exercise 4 or 5 times, she just stands and looks at me! When I asked the instructor about it, she said Poodles are very smart and get bored in a nano second. She said do no more than 3 repetitions of an exercise and then move on to something else. Since applying that to Cali, I've been having much less frustration and I think Cali is happier. Instead of a designated training session, I just work in the exercises here and there throughout the day. When teaching her something new, I work on it a couple of times and even if she wasn't successful I leave it 'til the next day. Invariably, she's got it the next time we work on it, it's like she slept on it and figured it out. LOL

I also found housebreaking her to be extremely frustrating compared to the Rotties. It maybe took a week to housebreak them. It probably took me close to 6 weeks to get Cali to the point where I felt she actually seemed to understand what I wanted her to do and I felt I could take my eyes off her for a second without a puddle happening. Most people I asked about it said it was a "small dog thing".

I've had Cali for about 2 months now and although she still frustrates and baffles me sometimes, she has come an enormous way since I first got her. I think she is going to be a phenomenal dog when she's grown. I realize the problem was my expectations, not her. She has always acted just like a Poodle and I was expecting her to act like a Rottweiler.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

caroline429 said:


> Cali is not particularily food-motivated and after doing an exercise 4 or 5 times, she just stands and looks at me! When I asked the instructor about it, she said Poodles are very smart and get bored in a nano second. She said do no more than 3 repetitions of an exercise and then move on to something else. Since applying that to Cali, I've been having much less frustration and I think Cali is happier.


Very, very true. Poodles are the least tolerant breed of drilling that I've encountered. I find that if I slip into drill mode, where I'm asking for many repetitions of something, I start getting creative variations as Vasco tries to make things more interesting :smile:.


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Ok, now I'm confused yet again.

I thought with clicker training you were supposed to only work on one behaviour at a time making sure they know the behavior inside out before "naming it" and moving on to the next task. If poodles are not drill oriiented that how does one avoid taking a week or more to learn one behaviour?! How many times (on average) is ok to repeat the drill?!?

Ug... This is a lot harder than I thought it would be. One of the reason I chose poodles was because in breed characteristics they were touted to be "easy to train", maybe some descriptions are ready to be scrapped or modified. "Easy to train if you know the guarded secret method". Lol 

Rebecca

PS- I'm mostly joking, just frustrated with myself for having a tough time wrapping my head around something that seems like it should be simple. We are getting somewhere, just agonizingly slowly. I "THINK" we've got sit down and we are making headway with the house training, but she's 11 weeks now. My retriever EASILY had house training, sit, down, stay and come by now ...


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## stealthq (Aug 4, 2011)

pgr8dnlvr said:


> Ok, now I'm confused yet again.
> 
> I thought with clicker training you were supposed to only work on one behaviour at a time making sure they know the behavior inside out before "naming it" and moving on to the next task. If poodles are not drill oriiented that how does one avoid taking a week or more to learn one behaviour?! How many times (on average) is ok to repeat the drill?!?
> 
> ...


Something that might help you ... at least it worked for me & Kohl. Instead of doing repetitions in a 'training session' to teach sit, down, and other behaviours that the puppy will do on her own anyway, try capturing the behaviour you're looking for when the puppy does it on her own during the day. This is what I had to do with Kohl for the first several weeks because he didn't care enough about treats to follow a lure at all, and he wasn't that interested in play either. What he did like was me. I used praise AND play AND a treat as a reward. It was the only way to get his interest. Once he was obviously sitting or downing to try to get his reward, that was when I named the action - watched him like a hawk, and when his butt started heading for the floor I'd say 'sit'. After a couple of times of that, I tried saying sit when he was paying attention to me. It worked and he got a huge jackpot.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

pgr8dnlvr said:


> Ok, now I'm confused yet again.
> 
> I thought with clicker training you were supposed to only work on one behaviour at a time making sure they know the behavior inside out before "naming it" and moving on to the next task. If poodles are not drill oriiented that how does one avoid taking a week or more to learn one behaviour?! How many times (on average) is ok to repeat the drill?!?
> 
> ...


I think you can work on several different things at the same time. I trained my puppy to respond to the hand signal for sit, down, touch, and paw in the same day with a clicker. Then reinforced them throughout the next week or so before adding a verbal cue. Just do a few reps of each until you know they can tell the difference between the different cues, the switch it up even more and start training for something else as well. For example, today in a 5 min training session I asked for a few sit ups, a sit stay, touch, then spins in one direction then another, introduced a new trick "take a bow" by luring, then practiced sit then down stay again, then lured a few more bows, and called it a day. I'll probably throw in a few more bows throughout the day randomly outside of actual training sessions.


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Hmmmm.... I'm missing something then? I thought the idea of the clicker was to wait for the appropriate behaviour, then click when they do it and immediately reward. Then you continue with the same behaviour a few more times. With a normal dog that doesn't mind repetition (not a poodle?) you would then add the word or cue once they are performing the action almost immediately upon you waiting for them to complete the action. I guess after a number more of the repetition with the word or cue then you can quite that one and move onto the next.

How did you go over all these new behaviours in one session? don't you have to wait and test that the dog knows the behaviour well enough before you add the cue? 

What am I missing?

By the way, I'm calling around and finding a first obedience class for my girl today! Might slip into the "gentle puppy" training class starting tomorrow. This is the first accredited local trainer I've found which closely follows Ian Dunbar idealism! 

Rebecca


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Oh, I didn't teach all of these behaviours in one session, in the above example, the only new one I'm adding is the "take a bow", which I get by luring. Actually, I got almost all of those behaviours with luring. Capturing is fine for the things your dog would do naturally anyways, like sit or down, but you'd have to shape/lure other things that aren't part of their usual repetoir, like spin, sit pretty (something she's still yet to learn). I lured even for the simple things like sit and down because it was just faster. I hold a piece of liver in front of her nose and slowly bring it above her head, as she tries to keep sniffing/licking it, she naturally sits while following the treat. As her bum hits the floor, I click and give her the treat. Repeat that a few time, then do it without the treat in your hand - the gesture of bringing your palm up then becomes the prompt. When she's responding well to the prompt, then I add the verbal cue "Sit" right before I prompt her. This is done over several sessions, the verbal cue came about a week after I introduced the prompt. But during the same week, I was also teaching her down the same way, as well as touch. The prompts were different - palm up while lifting the hand was sit, palm down while bringing the hand towards the ground was down, and palm outwards for touch.


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

So "capturing" is simply the term for clicking when there is ANY behaviour you want to reward? Not just one single behaviour at a time?

In the instance you talk about teaching the "sit" command you mentioned a process. You mention "repeat a few times". About how many times in one session do you think is reasonable to repeat? Is there a way to easily guage the interest your particular dog has in training? Do you just stop when you see their interest waning?

You mentioned you were training sit at the same time as down, and touch. How do you work on all three behaviours at the same time without confusing the dog?

Rebecca


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

If the dog is still paying attention to you, keep going. It only took about 3 tries before she learned what the hand gesture meant, because all she had to do was follow my hand with her nose. Once she knew one (sit), I moved on to a different one (down), by moving a treat to the floor, she followed it with her nose, and after trying to bat at it with her paws to no avail, she laid down and got a click/treat. A few tries later she lies down immediately as my hand moves towards the ground. Then you switch back to asking for sit. A puppy that young though, I'd keep the sessions short like 2 min tops. Maybe have 10 treats or so in your hand and that's it. You can always go back to training after a 10 min play break or a nap. If I find my pup's attention wandering while I'm training something new, I go back to something she already knows just to give her a "win", then end the session for a while. Sit, down, and touch were the first things I trained when I got her, and I think I started sit first, and introduced down several hours later, and practiced both that night. Touch came the day after along with paw and we kept practicing those for the next week or so, just alternating between cues to keep it interesting.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

pgr8dnlvr said:


> So "capturing" is simply the term for clicking when there is ANY behaviour you want to reward? Not just one single behaviour at a time?
> 
> In the instance you talk about teaching the "sit" command you mentioned a process. You mention "repeat a few times". About how many times in one session do you think is reasonable to repeat? Is there a way to easily guage the interest your particular dog has in training? Do you just stop when you see their interest waning?
> 
> ...


When I train, I look for signs of frustration or disinterest ... head turning away from me, lip licks, slow motion movement, or sometimes looking intently at me. All these can mean I'm not engaging the dog or not being clear. I generally move onto something he knows well and come back to the other later or on another day.

Once the dog knows what the clicker means, you can use the clicker to "capture" (click and reward) anything the dog does that you like, whether in a training session or just as part of everyday life. You are saying to the dog "That, THAT thing you just did, that earned you a reward." Example: you are eating dinner and the dog finally decides that poking your knee isn't getting anywhere. The dog lies down with a sigh. You capture the decision by the dog to lie down at mealtimes with a click and a treat. Maybe the dog bounces up again, maybe the dog stays lying down. You can click and treat the continued lying down a few minutes later, or if the dog didn't stay down, you can click and treat when the dog finally decides to lie down again. 

I use capturing sometimes when we are just fooling around. I'll put a new article out on the floor, something we haven't worked with before, and see what he does with it. Then I build on his initial interaction. 

For example, I once stuck a big roll of duct tape out on the floor and sat down in a chair with a clicker and some treats. He picked it up, he pushed it with his nose, he pawed at it, and eventually (accidentally) stood with one paw in the centre of the roll. I clicked and tossed a treat away from the duct tape. After that, I clicked every time his paw went in the centre, then every time he stood with his paw in the centre and moved a back foot at all, then any time he stood with his paw in the centre and moved a back foot to the right, etc. Eventually ended up with a dog that, when he sees a roll of duct tape, will stick a paw in the centre and pivot counter-clockwise around the roll. (This was over several training sessions). Not the most useful trick, but kept us entertained for a good few evenings!

Initially, in training, you build a couple of reliable behaviours, say "sit" and "down". Then you train those behaviours with variations. Sit while on the sofa. Sit on a mat. Sit cue while you have your back to the dog. Sit cue when you are lying on the floor. You can get away with more repetitions by varying things. Then chain together, i.e. sit, down, sit. Then once you have a couple of things the dog REALLY KNOWS, you can use them as part of the reward after you start working on something new. When I train something new, or something not yet solid, I always end the session with something the dog knows really well, as a confidence builder, so I can end the session with the dog being certain of what I want and getting rewarded for it.

Good luck! It's enormous fun. I ask my dog "wanna work?" and he bounces in great joy. It's the best bond-builder ever!


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