# If My Girl isn't a Poodle?



## Wooster Tim (Nov 11, 2021)

This is our Girl Koko. I call her my Koko Girl, like the Chanel Dame of yester years.
Anyways, I have often wondered if Koko is actually a Poodle and not the "Golden Doodle" she was advertised as. It really doesn't matter to me, I think, but I do wonder and am considering getting the DNA test for her. On a side note, I did the DNA test myself a couple of years back and I was surprised at how narrow my DNA lineage is.
We have had toy poodles for 30 plus years, some better representations of what a Poodle should be than others, but never didn't love any of them any differently. So I thought it might be fun to share this Journey with others as we contemplate going down this path.
Our Groomer has been with us the last 20+ years. She's says Koko is to small to be a standard poodle, she also doesn't seem convinced that Koko is a poodle. The groomer really should know more than I as she does attend dog events and seems knowledgeable. She's 24.5 inches at blades and 65 pounds. She is the biggest dog we have ever had and she is awesome. She's family friendly, especially our Autistic Daughter, but she see's me as her biggest Fan.

Anyways, her fur is super super dense and curly. And sorta soft yet a bit of wiry.

About two years ago, we picked up a Golden Doodle for our youngest, It was a Great move for a shy reserved 15 year old. They are Great Friends and do a lot together.

My wife recently found a Moyen Poodle that was the color of her first dog. Needless to say, there was no way we were not coming home without this puppy. My wife, after a little apprehension, named the puppy the same name as her first dog as a child, she did change the spelling though. Anyways this got me to thinking about the lineage of my Koko Girl.

Look forward to your thoughts.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Pretty girl. 

It's possible that she is a back-cross of a Goldendoodle x Poodle. If that's the case, then she would be 3/4 Poodle, but still be considered a Goldendoodle.

If your groomer goes to conformation shows, then she should know that any Poodle over 15" tall is considered a Standard, and that 24" is pretty typical for a SPoo. Golden bitches are normally 21.5 to 22.5" tall.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I'm a bit confused as to how she could be too small to be a standard. My boy Raffi is a bit taller (26" or just under) which is mid-range for a Spoo, but he is 10lbs less. That makes sense looking at your pictures, haircuts can be deceiving but your sweet Koko looks more "solid" built 5han a typical Spoo.
Do you know what generation she is? If both parents were Doodles themselves, she could have inherited nearly all poodle genes, or at least for the coat. I agree, she does look to have a very poodle coat.
My vote is to do the DNA testing, I did it even though I knew my dog was pure poodle but I loved seeing all the results on various traits. And it was nice to have the health tests too.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

My girl Peggy is 23.5”, 48 lbs, and very much a standard poodle. 

Since you’re not clear on Koko’s lineage, a DNA test might be a good idea for health purposes, with the added bonus of learning about her breed(s). I used Embark for Peggy, Wisdom Panel for Gracie.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

To me her muzzle looks a bit wide to be a poodle as well as her tail, that looks more doodle to me however it could be the cut. She would not be small for a standard poodle.
Female Standard Poodles have a withers height between 18”-24” (46-61 cm) and a weight in the range of 45-60 lb (20.4-27.2 kg). I think she as someone else mentioned is a doodle likely bred from a golden doodle to a poodle. Which I don't really get why the doodle breeders do this. Its like an attempt to get a doodle to be more poodle? Anyway your girl is really cute.


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## kuriooo (Feb 17, 2010)

Mufar42 said:


> To me her muzzle looks a bit wide to be a poodle as well as her tail, that looks more doodle to me however it could be the cut. She would not be small for a standard poodle.
> Female Standard Poodles have a withers height between 18”-24” (46-61 cm) and a weight in the range of 45-60 lb (20.4-27.2 kg). I think she as someone else mentioned is a doodle likely bred from a golden doodle to a poodle. Which I don't really get why the doodle breeders do this. Its like an attempt to get a doodle to be more poodle? Anyway your girl is really cute.


I saw on another board yesterday a post explaining what % poodle genes are in which generation of back cross. 2 types were above 80% or higher- that’s a lot of poodle.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Koko is lovely, and I'd love to see your moyen as well! Agree with everyone else. Her size is fine, but she could be a "mostly poodle" doodle. If it helps, I recently posted a discount code for Embark that you can find using the search box.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

The first impression from me is, "the face doesn't look as pointy as most poodles". 

But it sounds like she's a good fit in the family pack and for your daughter though, so that's the most important part. <3


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## Wooster Tim (Nov 11, 2021)

Thanks for all the input. I appreciate the engagement of discussion.
Someone asked about the new Puppy. Here she is. KC is her name. Papers claim Standard Poodle. We were told She is a Moyen Poodle. Her parents were around 20" at withers/blades. Not sure what's appropriate descriptor for dogs and being a little lazy in not looking it up.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

The golden doodle looks like a golden doodle to me - longer in the back, heavier bones, wider face than most poodles. Will be interesting to see a genetic test though, poorly bred poodles sometimes look like doodles too! A lot of doodles have that curly coat, as they are often 80% poodle or more. My doodle as a kid had that same curly coat, I suspect she was at least 3/4 poodle. 

As for size, my standard poodle is a bit overweight and large for a female standard poodle at 60 lbs. 35-60 lbs is pretty normal. 

Your (very cute!!!!) moyen is a lovely smaller standard poodle, like the papers say. Anything above 15" at the withers is standard sized in the US and Canada. 

In FCI sizes, the kennel club that acknowledges Moyen as it's own size, 35-45 cm at the withers is a medium or Moyen poodle. 35-45 cm is about 13-18". So a 20" poodle would be a standard poodle there, too


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

As mentioned, "Moyen" (Medium) is an FCI (Fédération Cynologique Internationale) size. A lot of breeders here are breeding smaller standards and calling them moyen, since it's a hot trend at the moment.

This is from the FCI standard, with size conversion into inches: 

*SIZE AND WEIGHT*: The sexual dimorphism must be clearly visible in all varieties.

*Standard Poodles*: Over 45 cm up to 60 cm *(17.72" to 23.63")* with a tolerance of +2 cm. The Standard Poodle must be the enlarged and developed replica of the Medium Poodle of which it retains the same characteristics.

*Medium Poodles*: Over 35 cm up to 45 cm. *(13.78" to 17.72")*

*Miniature Poodles*: Over 28 cm up to 35 cm. *(11.02" to 13.78")* The Miniature Poodle must display the appearance of a reduced Medium Poodle, retaining as much as possible the same proportions and without presenting any sign of dwarfism.

*Toy Poodles*: Over 24 cm (with a tolerance of -1cm) up to 28 cm (sought after ideal: 25 cm). *(9.45" to 11.02") *The Toy Poodle maintains, in its ensemble, the aspect of a Miniature Poodle and the same general proportions complying with all the points of the standard. Any sign of dwarfism is excluded; only the external occipital protuberance may be less pronounced.

This is from the AKC standard:

*Size, Proportion, Substance: Size - 

The Standard Poodle* is over 15 inches at the highest point of the shoulders. Any Poodle which is 15 inches or less in height shall be disqualified from competition as a Standard Poodle.

*The Miniature Poodle* is 15 inches or under at the highest point of the shoulders, with a minimum height in excess of 10 inches. Any Poodle which is over 15 inches or is 10 inches or less at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as a Miniature Poodle.

*The Toy Poodle* is 10 inches or under at the highest point of the shoulders. Any Poodle which is more than 10 inches at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as a Toy Poodle. As long as the Toy Poodle is definitely a Toy Poodle, and the Miniature Poodle a Miniature Poodle, both in balance and proportion for the Variety, diminutiveness shall be the deciding factor when all other points are equal.

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I met a lovely standard bitch a while back, who was a Russian import (so bred to the FCI standard), and she was definitely smaller than a lot of other SPoos I've met, probably around 20" at the withers.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

My boy Galen is from show lines. He is 50 pounds and around 24 inches.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

My poodle Evelyn is a 48lb male standard. Your girl looks like a doodle, her body and head would be very heavy and stocky for a poodle. 65lbs is on the heavier end for a standard poodle female and 24.5" would be on the upper end of the show height range. Maybe the poodles in your area run very large, but I'm really not sure what your groomer was on about saying your girl was too small to be a poodle.


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## Wooster Tim (Nov 11, 2021)

There is a pair of poodles a couple of streets over that, well, I believe them to be identified as Standard Poodles, yet they are taller than my Koko Girl. The also seem to have the same full body, However, they do have leaner longer snouts, in my estimation. Fur is the same, and their legs are proportionally longer too. I tend to lean towards what most of you are saying that Koko is in fact a doodle due to her shorter wider snout, thicker mid section and more muscular/thicker rear haunches. She definitely seems "wider" across the back. That being said, will the DNA tests give a percentage of breeds intermixed?


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Wooster Tim said:


> That being said, will the DNA tests give a percentage of breeds intermixed?


Yes. Breeds and percentage.


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## Wooster Tim (Nov 11, 2021)

The Moyen thing, funny, I wonder if the breeder would have thought that would impress us. He kinda seemed that type in retrospective. I never heard of "Moyen" before. No disrespect to Moyens BTW, I just don't know about breeds like you all do.

The down side, the pup had Parvo. We didn't know it, the breeder said he didn't know it. Breeders Vet refused to see the puppy. I called on favors and wound up leaving my own vet over it. In the end, the Pup survived and seems no worse for the bout. None of our dogs have been out of our yard in months and none have ever had Parvo. I don't know how she got it, we did not stop anywhere bringing her home. Hadn't even made it to the vet yet for well puppy check. Went through a lot of bleach, inside and out that weekend while she was in Doggy Hospital!


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Parvo can be carried on shoes and clothing, which makes me wonder if someone else who got a puppy from that breeder had been exposed to it, and carried it to the breeder's house?


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Your girl is lovely but she doesn’t look like a poodle to me. Her ears, muzzle, tail and body size are not typical of poodles.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Wooster Tim said:


> The Moyen thing, funny, I wonder if the breeder would have thought that would impress us.


Unfortunately, most of the breeders using the term "moyen" are taking advantage of buyers who don't have a lot of experience. They're using "klein", "moyen", and "medium" as marketing terms because the size is desirable. More unhappy news is that they're getting that size by breeding the varieties of miniatures and standards to downsize, and often not doing the proper health testing for each variety before breeding. There are a few quality breeders who are importing the mediums from countries where that variety is in the breed standard.

As one of our members, Curlflooffan, pointed out, many miniature poodles in the registries not containing the medium variety, would technically be medium in the FCI countries.

Here are the sizes of poodle varieties in a chart

ANKC, NZKC and Kennel Club (UK)American and Canadian KCFédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI)StandardOver 38 cms (15 ins)Over 15 inches (38 cms)Over 45 cm (17.7 ins) up to 60 cm (23.6 ins) with a tolerance of +2 cm (0.79 ins)Medium - over 35 cm (13.78 ins) up to 45 cm (17.7 ins)MiniatureUnder 38 cm (15 ins) but not under 28 cm (11 ins)Under 15 inches (38 cms) with a minimum height in excess of 10 inches (25.4 cms)Over 28 cm (11 ins) up to 35 cm (13.78 ins)ToyUnder 28 cm (11 ins)10 inches (25.4 cms) or underOver 24 cm (9.45 ins) (with a tolerance of -1 cm or 0.4 ins) up to 28 cm (11 ins) [sought after ideal: 25 cm (9.8 ins)]




Wooster Tim said:


> Her parents were around 20" at withers/blades


Your moyen's parents are standards by any poodle breed standard.



Wooster Tim said:


> I tend to lean towards what most of you are saying that Koko is in fact a doodle due to her shorter wider snout, thicker mid section and more muscular/thicker rear haunches. She definitely seems "wider" across the back


This is the poodle breed standard as described by the official breed club in the US, the Poodle Club of America. Breeders ideally are trying to copy this poodle blueprint but their success will depend on how well bred the dam and sire are. This is why a visual estimation alone can't be definitive if there's enough variance from the standard.

IllustratedStandard.pdf (poodleclubofthelehighvalley.com)



Wooster Tim said:


> will the DNA tests give a percentage of breeds intermixed?


The DNA breed identification testing will be very accurate back 1 generation if the parents were both purebred and if the breed DNA is in their database. The further back you go, especially if other breeds are mixed in, the less accurate they can be. If your pup is from a breeder that can document generations of purebred poodles, the results should be very accurate.

_"While some problems can result in merely underestimating the percentage of mutt’s ancestry that derives from a specific breed, other problems can prevent the correct breed from being identified at all. The most substantial of these problems is the absence of true ancestral breed from the reference dataset (Figure 9).

Because breed ancestry is inferred by comparing chunks of mutt DNA to purebred dogs of known breeds, if a breed is absent from the reference dataset, that breed simply cannot be detected, even if it contributed a very large fraction of a mutt’s DNA.

This issue will ultimately be solved only through inclusion of reference genomes from recognized breeds; in the meantime, if you are interested in knowing whether your dog has ancestry from a specific rare breed, it is important to make sure your breed ancestry company of choice is able to check for that breed."

For those who decide to proceed with ancestry inference even though the breed of interest is known to be absent from the reference set, it is important to keep in mind that the absence of that breed from the list of inferred ancestors provides no information as to whether the mutt truly lacks that particular ancestry.

The mutations selected for genotyping also determine which breed ancestries can be accurately identified in a mixed-breed dog. Genotyping arrays tend to include more mutations present in common breeds. This means that chunks of chromosomes from poodles and German shepherds may be especially easy to identify because many of the mutations common in these breeds are assayed on genotyping arrays.

While many mutations could help identify chunks of DNA from rare breeds such as New Guinea singing dogs or Skye terriers, some of these mutations may not be represented on widely-used genotyping arrays, which could make these breeds harder to identify.

This problem will eventually be solved by creating breed reference datasets with sequence data, which would allow for the interpretation of many more mutations and would not be biased toward detection of ancestry from specific breeds.

A mutt’s relationship to its purebred ancestors also affects the reliability of breed determination. In particular, it is easier to identify the breed ancestry of DNA from a purebred ancestor who is a close relative (such as a parent) because mutations from recent ancestors will reside in longer chunks of DNA with more informative mutations.

For example, while the first mutation observed on a mutt’s chromosome may be common in both Labradors and Golden Retrievers, perhaps the first, second, and third mutations observed are only seen together in Golden Retrievers. DNA contributed by ancestors from many generations back will exist as only short chromosome chunks, with fewer mutations to help identify their contribution to the mutt’s ancestry, making inference more difficult.

This issue can be mitigated by using data from sequencing instead of genotyping, allowing for all mutations to be analyzed. However, DNA inherited from many generations back can be in chromosome chunks so short that it will not contain chromosome chunks characteristic of a specific breed, such that the breed’s contributions to a mutt’s ancestry cannot be detected even with whole-genome data (Li et al., 2014)."_

quoted from:

How Accurate Are Dog DNA Tests? Insights & Challenges | The IAABC Journal

I bought the tests to get some health info on my boys, with hopefully no other surprises, and just received them today.



kuriooo said:


> I saw on another board yesterday a post explaining what % poodle genes are in which generation of back cross. 2 types were above 80% or higher- that’s a lot of poodle.



*F1 Goldendoodle: *50% Poodle & 50% Golden Retriever
*F1B Goldendoodle: *75% Poodle & 25% Golden Retriever
*F1BB Goldendoodle*: 87.5% Poodle & 12.5% Golden Retriever
*F2 Goldendoodle: *50% Poodle & 50% Golden Retriever
*F2B Goldendoodle: * 62.5% Poodle & 37.5% Golden Retriever
*F2BB Goldendoodle:* 81.25% Poodle & 18.75% Golden Retriever
*F3 Goldendoodle or Multi-generation Goldendoodle:* Several generations of Goldendoodle breeding typically backcross breeding to the Standard Poodle.


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## fridays_mom1001 (Nov 18, 2021)

Wooster Tim said:


> Thanks for all the input. I appreciate the engagement of discussion.
> Someone asked about the new Puppy. Here she is. KC is her name. Papers claim Standard Poodle. We were told She is a Moyen Poodle. Her parents were around 20" at withers/blades. Not sure what's appropriate descriptor for dogs and being a little lazy in not looking it up.
> View attachment 483841
> View attachment 483842


what a doll!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

It's really hard to tell much when the face has not been clipped. When you say "papers", do you mean an AKC registration document? An AKC registration is a piece of paper 81/2 inches by 4 inches that has a purple boarder. In that purple border at the top will be the words "American Kennel Club" and at the bottom "Registration Certificate". It will have the dog's registered name, AKC number, breed, sex, color, date of birth, sire, dam, breeder, and owner.

The AKC states that puppies born to AKC registered parents have a right to be registered. A breeder can opt for a restricted (non-breeding) registration, but should not ever, ever charge for it or withhold it.

The use of the term "moyen" is really being used as a promotion right now. Until recently, poodles from 15 to about 18 inches in height were just called oversize miniatures - which is usually what they are unless someone crossed a miniature with a standard - a very questionable practice.


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## Wooster Tim (Nov 11, 2021)

she's super sweet with just a dash of Spice and everything Nice. LOL


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## Wooster Tim (Nov 11, 2021)

Johanna said:


> It's really hard to tell much when the face has not been clipped. When you say "papers", do you mean an AKC registration document? An AKC registration is a piece of paper 81/2 inches by 4 inches that has a purple boarder. In that purple border at the top will be the words "American Kennel Club" and at the bottom "Registration Certificate". It will have the dog's registered name, AKC number, breed, sex, color, date of birth, sire, dam, breeder, and owner.
> 
> The AKC states that puppies born to AKC registered parents have a right to be registered. A breeder can opt for a restricted (non-breeding) registration, but should not ever, ever charge for it or withhold it.
> 
> The use of the term "moyen" is really being used as a promotion right now. Until recently, poodles from 15 to about 18 inches in height were just called oversize miniatures - which is usually what they are unless someone crossed a miniature with a standard - a very questionable practice.



Yes, AKC Registered Parents and the Puppy. Breeder actually did provide the paperwork for free. and yes, he just referenced the Term Moyen in discussion, saying the parents and puppies are actually what people call "Moyen". I wasn't knowledgeable about the term "Moyen", but the Bitch and Sire presented as the parents looked acceptable to me as somewhat shorter parents, just not overly big. Their coats were pretty long, the Kennel was actually pretty nice purpose built Small Pole Building. Never would have guessed the Puppy would come down with Parvo. We are Rural, 1.5 hours from Major city.

He did ask me to do the online registration of our name and address etc with whatever we decide to call the puppy. Haven't done that yet.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

1.5 hours outside the city.. Okay, so you're probably by pretty clean grass. Obviously use your parental intuition. However, it wouldn't hurt to introduce the leash manners from the start off. Keeping puppy on leash with a harness could also help tether them to you as a bonding tool. In addition, you should take into consideration appropriate levels of puppy freedom. For the most part you want puppy close to you so as it engages with the world, Momma or Poppa can be there to "no, we don't put that in our mouths", to show boundaries, and to be there to give immediate praise for good behavior...

Kinda like the same reason parents tether their kid at Disney land...


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## Wooster Tim (Nov 11, 2021)

Just meant, being rural we know people who know people, who know you. LOL


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