# Isn't this a "Double Standard"??



## happybooker1 (Dec 6, 2011)

Referring to the post about a "small standard" website. Now we can't MENTION 'Tiny' Toys or 'Teacups' here, but Peppersb is actually going to BREED for 'smaller' standards and has even started a website advertising such and everyone's offering support. 

I'm not trying to be a biotch about it, but what's the difference? I have a 'tiny' toy but Heaven Forbid I call him that. And if anyone posts they're looking for a "tiny" toy -- boy do THEY get an earful! But if you're looking for a 'Smaller' Standard -- why, you get ALL kinds of suggestions. 

And no, I didn't pay 'an arm and a leg' for Remi. I just chose from a litter whose parents were small. 

I just find it kinda unfair is all. 

Rant over.


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## kailyn (Mar 22, 2012)

The way I see the difference is that breeding standards on the smaller end of the acceptable height limits poses no further health risks to the dog specific to its size, where as breeding for smaller sizes in toys specifically is wrought with such risks. I myself have owned a "tiny" toy and health wise she was very high maintainance, as they have proven to be moreso then their slightly larger counterparts (anecdotally at least) time and time again. further, even though you may not have paid extra for your tiny guy, one glance at kijij and the like shows that most people advertizing for the teacups and tinies are absolutely asking much more than one would pay for an AKC reg. poodle, and these dogs are often unregistered. 

I'm not agro towards those on either side of the spectrum, this is just my personal view of the difference, and take it with a grain or a heap of salt


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## happybooker1 (Dec 6, 2011)

*Remi IS AKC registered*

but Probably not the best example of the breed but that's OK cuz I'm not planning on showing him. He doesn't have any health problems so far (knock on wood). 

And I'm not looking to start an arguement or anything but nice pleasant answers (like yours kailyn!) are welcome.


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## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

Technically the poodle standard states toys should be 'under 10 inches', just like the standard poodle should be 'over 15'. The problem lies in that when you breed for very small dogs, there are many more health issues. On the flip side, there are also more health problems with a very large dog, which is why people who advertise 'royal' standards are also frowned upon.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

I agree with Kailyn. My Eve could be considered a "tiny toy"(didnt pay extra either) and she does have all sorts of health issues lol. I could have bought a few show prospects from the top toy p kennel in the world by now.. seriously! Plus her medical record is about an 1" thick while my 4 yr old mini.. well her record is probably as thick as a 1/8 of a checkbook to give you some perspective.. if that.

Also in Europe there are FOUR sizes of poodle.. the fourth would be technically the large mini small std size that everyone wants here. Many years of healthy conformationally correct breeding there, and some are imported. Many US breeders with OVERSIZED exceptionally correct minis and toys are sold to breeders on the other side of the atlantic because they can be used there and not shown here.

No need to rant:O).


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## kailyn (Mar 22, 2012)

no problem! no arguments from me  yes, some are registered and resonably priced as well as seem to have minimal health issues (such as your Remi, and *knock on wood* my mothers 7 year old 5lb girl... she was an unexpected small girl from slightly larger parents). but I do see a lot of the other examples, especially in Vancouver where i'm from, and i think those are the ones that use the tiny and teacup specifications as a term to increase their price. I honestly don't have issues personally with people describing their dogs as such, just for clarity sakes, it when its used as a marketing tool I think that places the negative connotation on it....


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Money issues aside, my understanding is that deliberate breeding for tiny toys (or "royal" standards, I suppose) poses known health risks associated with those extremes. The only risk in selecting for big minis/small standards is that the dogs might not be competitive in the conformation ring -- there are no additional health risks beyond the many you always have when breeding poodles. Simple as that.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Also, when reputable show breeders have minis that go over the size limit or standards that are a bit small to do well in the show ring, they don't sell them for more money, those dogs are going to head to pet homes here in the U.S. These breeders are not specifically trying to breed for oversize minis, for example, it's just that many show breeders like their minis to get as close to the 15-inch height limit as possible. When you strive for that it is inevitable that some will go over the limit. Like others have pointed out, there are no health risks associated with a 17 inch mini, it's just not going to be able to show. 

You NEVER see reputable toy breeders striving for the smallest toy possible. It's not healthy. Usually those very small toys are spayed or neutered and placed in pet homes because they are not suitable for showing or breeding.

If someone is looking for a toy poodle the first words of advice I will give is to RUN from a breeder who advertises teacups or tiny toys. You can find a very small toy poodle from a reputable breeder because these dogs do appear even when breeders are not striving for a super tiny dog--it just won't have that cutesy moniker. 

Finally, unless I misread something, Peppersb is NOT setting out to breed small standard poodles. He is organizing an information website where people can find breeders who tend to breed smaller standard poodles that are well within the conformation breed standard and can and are shown to championships. There is a wide variation in standards since there is no upper height limit. Some breeders prefer larger dogs, some prefer smaller ones, but they are all correct techinically. For a PET owner, however, who is looking for a standard on the smaller side and who is not well-versed in the show world, how would they know which reputable breeders tend to have smaller dogs?


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## KristaLynn (Mar 22, 2012)

Maybe I don't understand but are you actually upset that people don't like you using the terms "tiny toy" and "teacup" to describe your dog? Because to me that has a fairly simple explanation, those are terms used heavily by mills and BYBs so if you go around using those terms for your dog (even if you didn't get him from those sources) people that think your dog is cute & awesome and want one JUST LIKE HIM are going to look for a dog like him using the name you call him. If they don't do tons of research they are going to not get a healthy dog like you did.

This is why I never use the designer dog name for Jewel's mix. When people ask what she is the answer is always, "Poodle mix." If they ask what she's mixed with the answer is, "I'm not 100% sure since she's a rescue but I believe it's shih-tzu."


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## happybooker1 (Dec 6, 2011)

KristaLynn said:


> Maybe I don't understand but are you actually upset that people don't like you using the terms "tiny toy" and "teacup" to describe your dog?



I guess I'm just confused by the "political" correctness of it all. It's frowned on to say I have a "tiny toy" or "teacup Poodle", yet people here are discussing 'oversized Mini's' or 'small Standards' with impunity. If I called Remi a 'Petite Toy' or 'Itty Bitty Toy' would that be more acceptable? :act-up:


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

As others have said, there arent any health risks associated with breeding smaller standards.However, breeding for "teacup " toys does causd a lot of issues and that is why you get such a strong reaction out of us. Thanks for bringing it up, Id never actually thought about it! And I apologize for the typos, I'm on my phone and its hard to type!!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

happybooker1 said:


> I guess I'm just confused by the "political" correctness of it all. It's frowned on to say I have a "tiny toy" or "teacup Poodle", yet people here are discussing 'oversized Mini's' or 'small Standards' with impunity. If I called Remi a 'Petite Toy' or 'Itty Bitty Toy' would that be more acceptable? :act-up:


I think you either did not fully read or did not fully comprehend KrystaLynn's post, she put it rather well.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

happybooker1 said:


> If I called Remi a 'Petite Toy' or 'Itty Bitty Toy' would that be more acceptable? :act-up:


I am curious, but why do you not just call Remi what he is? He is a toy poodle.


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## Leooonie (May 30, 2009)

My boy is a oversized miniature poodle. He is not within the breed standard 15"under size set.. he could be called a small standard, but since his parents were miniatures.. he is still a mini. not a standard.
a small miniature, bred from mini parents is still a mini even if it is toy sized. a large toy poodle can be 'mini sized' but was still bred from toys sized dogs.
a small toy is still a toy... even a 'royal' standard is still a standard poodle... 

it gives bad connotations as 'teacup' is generally used to sell unhealthily sized dogs for stupid little girls to put in handbags. anyone hearing you say 'teacup' or even 'tiny toy' may get the wrong idea and search out for a breeder of these sized dogs, of any small breed, instead of searching for reputable breeders who do not describe their dogs as such.

thats how i see it anyway


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

happybooker1 said:


> Referring to the post about a "small standard" website. Now we can't MENTION 'Tiny' Toys or 'Teacups' here, but Peppersb is actually going to BREED for 'smaller' standards and has even started a website advertising such and everyone's offering support.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a biotch about it, but what's the difference? I have a 'tiny' toy but Heaven Forbid I call him that. And if anyone posts they're looking for a "tiny" toy -- boy do THEY get an earful! But if you're looking for a 'Smaller' Standard -- why, you get ALL kinds of suggestions.
> 
> ...


I think the biggest difference here is none of the people on this web site will be calling their smaller Standard puppies Kleins. They are simply small Standards. A Klein is a whole different entity. A small Standard who is the result of a Standard to Standard breeding is a Standard.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

This is a good logical discussion of the extremes on both ends of standard and toy poodles. Miniatures have a definitive size range on both ends where health is easier to determine.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Would "small" or "undersized toy" cover all the bases? As the owner of toy dogs, I agree with what has been said about the use of cute terms as a marketing gimmick. It is generally accepted that only larger bitches should be bred from - the risk to mum and pups is just too great otherwise. To deliberately breed for the smallest size possible is known to lead to health issues in many of the litters and in many of the surviving dogs - it would be interesting to know how many pups of the different poodle sizes make it to maturity. The term "teacup" is now associated with so many unfortunate breeding practices, that it is a red flag.

I call Poppy a large, or top end of the size range, toy poodle. She is just at the upper UK limit. Small, large, oversized, undersized are all fairly neutral terms still, I think!


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

disregard


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## KristaLynn (Mar 22, 2012)

fjm said:


> I call Poppy a large, or top end of the size range, toy poodle. She is just at the upper UK limit. Small, large, oversized, undersized are all fairly neutral terms still, I think!


 I agree!


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

I think it's just a problem of breeding for either extreme - whether it's "teacup" toys, or "royal" standards. There are no health risks in breeding for smaller standards that I know of, and I don't see any reason why they would be harder to breed for conformity (unless you achieve it by breeding mini to standard, but that's a different issue).


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I posted this on the other thread. Maybe someone here can address my questions:



> Excellent question, Carley'sMom. I hope this site will address that, too.
> 
> I thought, according to AKC, at least, the same standards apply to all sizes, and it is ONLY the size that categories them. So, with AKC, there are no oversized anythings--they are simply in the next category.
> 
> ...


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## happybooker1 (Dec 6, 2011)

*I thought it depended on the parents*

If both parents were classified as standards, then the pups were standards, even if one was smaller than 15". In other words, 2 Standards do NOT = a Miniature Poodle.

However, I've been known to be wrong before--LOL!


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

I don't see a conflict, if the pedigree defines what the poodle is. Isn't the "standard" for the three sizes also defined by proportion?


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

If it is all controlled by what the parents are classed as, whether misclassed or not; how did Palmares and Shangri-la create the red standards in the 80's and eventually any of them become registered, if their pedigrees contain breeding between sizes? Really, I am not trying to start a controvery, I just don't get it.

If I am understanding correctly, aside from the creation of red standards, and whatever happened there as far as registration is concerned, I could have a poodle that was a standard in size, but would have to register him as a mini, if both his parents were registered as minis? That means, theoretically, there could be an entire line classed incorrectly, but it will just go on in perpetuity, or unless there is some AKC, etc., classification changes?


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Oddities along the way, to be sure. Many, many generations of standards bred out the miniatures. I still don't see a conflict with this. It is still proportion, lineage, and size by responsible breeders.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

A Poodle is a Poodle is a Poodle. One breed, three varieties here, four in Europe.

If a Standard is bred to a Standard, the resulting puppies are Standards. The puppies are registered as puppies, so nobody knows what size they will be when mature. But even if they weren't, any moral, responsible breeder would not class a 17" oversize mini as a Standard.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

In the UK the three size registries - Toy, Miniature and Standard - are closed. That means that a pup must come from two parents in the same register, and is itself ragistered according to its parents' classification. The Toy registry was only closed in the 1970s - until then any poodle small enough could be registered as a Toy.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

In this recent thread Toronto_Toyseeker is asking about a toy breeder called BabyPaws that she is unsure about: http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle...e-what-think-breeder-puppy-photos-inside.html

On this breeder's website is this chart of puppy prices, which just goes to show exactly what we are saying about teacups, tiny toys, micro teacups, etc.

A 1 1/2 pound dog is NOT a good idea. To ask $5,000 for such a "rare" and tiny dog is disgusting. It really makes my physically sick. 

Here is the chart from BabyPaws website:

Poodle Sizes Weight (lbs) Height Price
MicroTeacups 1.5 - 2.5 lbs. 8" and under $3,500 - $5,000 
Tiny Teacups 2.5 - 3.5 lbs. 8" and under $2,200 - $3,500 
Teacups 3.5 - 4.5 lbs. 8" and under $1,800 -$2,200 
Tiny Toys 4.5 - 6.5 lbs. 9" and under $1,200 -$1,800 
Toy Poodles 6.5 - 8.5 lbs. 10" and under $875 - $1,200


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

Thank you for clearing up my confusions. Last question, maybe Arreau can answer for me, as she has such loveley reds.

So, how did someone manage to get registration and create these lovelies in the 1980's, when both parents were not the same class size in order to create them? Was there some type of advance exception made for the furtherence of color, etc?


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

Ooooops, well...again I thank you all, but I may have to remain confused, because according to this site (Standard Poodle Red Standard Poodle History), "Breeding a Miniature to a Standard Poodle is acceptable and able to be registered within AKC"



> If a Standard is bred to a Standard, the resulting puppies are Standards. The puppies are registered as puppies, so nobody knows what size they will be when mature. But even if they weren't, any moral, responsible breeder would not class a 17" oversize mini as a Standard.


So, then, which are they registered as? Didn't they have an oversized offspring of at least one mini parent registered as a standard in that case, and if so, perhaps others; as it is acceptable?

I am not a breeder, never would want to be, but I am loving the education. So, was this creation responsible/irresponsible...........perhaps too controversial to discuss here. But, it happens and certainly could produce our "small standards".


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Our Breed is the poodle. The poodle has 3-4 varieties depending what country you live in. In each country there is a variance in the variety sizes.. For example toys in the US are 10" and under.. while say in the UK they are 11" and under. Which is why NICE oversized toys are sold to UK breeders where they can be of use... And smaller toys can be imported from them as well sice like here there are a variety of sizes in a litter. If you were to breed a toy and a mini you would still have a Poodle..

Now when you breed a litter of Poodles you have to decide.. guess, if I may, what Variety the pups or at least the majority of pups will be. Now if you bred a toy to a toy, a mini to a mini, or std to a std, well it wouldnt take a rocket scientist to figure out what variety you would put on the registration papers lol.

Its when you are breeding the diff varieties together that you must decide which size your pups will turn out to be. If you bred a mini to a toy.. what size would you end up with? Who knows.. hard to tell you could end up with either size.. darn genetics lol. Now lets say you have an oversized toy(or UK toy) and you have a larger mini bitch.. more than likely you will end up with minis.. if you want to show lets just hope they will also LOOK like minis and not just be mini size lol. Why some interbreed the varieties I am not certain, and Im sure they have different reasons for it. But you risk spreading genetic diseases into other varieties that normally wouldnt have them.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I disagree with some statements. I find that if the AKC registers ONLY height as the difference between the 3 sizes in the US then that is what one registers the dog as.

My dog I registered as a Mini since she was over 10" or close to that at 4 months so I knew she would be over the TOY catagorey. Her Dam is 10 1/2" & Sire is 12". I think I did the right thing to register her based on her actual size. Glad I did since she is 12" tall, not just slightly over the 10" height limit. 

I have tons of clients that say they "bought" a toy & it is huge, not a 10" & under dog. 

I doubt there are too many Standards in the US that end up under 15". As for Mini's when one starts to hit 18" then I call that a Standard size.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

3dogs: This sounds very responsible to me, and helps people to make reliable decisions for future reference. I know a lot of people mentioned that it is very hard for them to track/research sizes within certain lines.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am sorry I did not see this sooner and respond. To the best of my knowledge, you can breed a registered mini Poodle to a registered Standard Poodle and register the puppies. The breed is Poodle. I have seen a number of Standard pedigrees lately where if you go back seven or eight generations you see the odd mini pop up. And not always in red Standards. These litters were obviously registered, or there would have been issues ahead and it does not appear there were.


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

Teacup anything seems to be a term used by BYB that are trying to make profit by breeding very small dogs - often resulting in health issues. 

Small toys are definitely out there bred by responsible breeders - my Bella for example is only tiny as she was in a litter of two where the male was extremely large - her parents were both champions in the conformation ring - she was sold to a "pet" home on a spay contract due to her size only. The breeder was very upfront with us on potential health issues. We feel extremely lucky to have her in our lives - she should definitely be marked "fragile - handle with care" even though she thinks she is a big girl.

Small standards do not have the health risks associated with a "teacup" however breeding for anything less than to the standard, improvement in the breed is in my opinion very irresponsible. There are too many animals in shelters or from those litters that are not champion prospects to breed for anything less.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

There is a cabryn imported dwarf that is producing some beautiful mini get. A dwarf to my understanding is between 11 - 13" at the withers, a toy is 11 & under. This dwarfs sire and dam are toy poodles.. At least for a number of generations. So obviously a very nice oversized toy sold to a mini breeder to produce mini poodles. As I stated you can inter breed the varieties and still have poodles.. Just gotta decide which Variety to label as. In this case an oversized toy to a mini = minis.. With better angulation lol. Of course gotta be more careful of luxating patellas. Oh and all the get I have seen have fallen around the 13" or bigger size, and some are winning in the group ring from the classes. Very nice dogs!


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Minnie said:


> Small standards do not have the health risks associated with a "teacup" however breeding for anything less than to the standard, improvement in the breed is in my opinion very irresponsible.


Very irresponsible? Really?? The AKC breed standard states that a standard poodle is over 15 inches tall: "Any Poodle which is 15 inches or less in height shall be disqualified from competition as a Standard Poodle." Small standard poodles are definitely within the AKC breed standard even if they are not popular in the AKC show ring. Consistently selecting only those dogs that fall within the roughly 23 to 26 inches that is currently favored in the AKC show ring would unnecessarily limit the gene pool and hurt the long term health of the breed IMO. It is fine if some breeders choose only the 23-26 inch size, but best for the breed if the smaller spoos are not eliminated from the gene pool. The smaller size (18 to 22 inches) is popular with pet owners and they are often good agility or therapy dogs. They are fabulous dogs (or can be if they are properly bred).

There are lots of problems with irresponsible poodle breeding. All breeding dogs (small and average-sized standards alike) should be healthy and health tested. They should have sound temperaments and correct structure. Breeders should not abuse the parent dogs or have more than they can adequately care for (there have been FAR too many cases of that!). The breeder should able to place all of the pups in good homes and provide on-going support for puppy buyers. There are lots of problems with irresponsible breeding, but there is nothing at all wrong with breeding this good and healthy size.


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

peppersb said:


> Very irresponsible? Really?? The AKC breed standard states that a standard poodle is over 15 inches tall: "Any Poodle which is 15 inches or less in height shall be disqualified from competition as a Standard Poodle." Small standard poodles are definitely within the AKC breed standard even if they are not popular in the AKC show ring. Consistently selecting only those dogs that fall within the roughly 23 to 26 inches that is currently favored in the AKC show ring would unnecessarily limit the gene pool and hurt the long term health of the breed IMO. It is fine if some breeders choose only the 23-26 inch size, but best for the breed if the smaller spoos are not eliminated from the gene pool. The smaller size (18 to 22 inches) is popular with pet owners and they are often good agility or therapy dogs. They are fabulous dogs (or can be if they are properly bred).
> 
> There are lots of problems with irresponsible poodle breeding. All breeding dogs (small and average-sized standards alike) should be healthy and health tested. They should have sound temperaments and correct structure. Breeders should not abuse the parent dogs or have more than they can adequately care for (there have been FAR too many cases of that!). The breeder should able to place all of the pups in good homes and provide on-going support for puppy buyers. There are lots of problems with irresponsible breeding, but there is nothing at all wrong with breeding this good and healthy size.


Wow... take a big step back and re-read what I wrote.... "Small standards do not have the health risks associated with a "teacup" however breeding for anything less than to the standard, improvement in the breed is in my opinion very irresponsible." Now exactly where did I write that anything about a specific size???? My words exactly - standard - Anyone breeding to less than the AKC recognized standard (in any way size only being one of a huge number of areas) then yes in my opinion it is irresponsible. However I never once made a comment about you - period.

Open comment to all of you that "liked" the post quoted above... I have often commented very positively on your beautiful poodles, loved the pictures, and great advise so many have given. To have this post liked when I never wrote anything that deserves this post just hurts.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I think there was just a miscommunication there.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Dear Minnie,

In the context, I understood what you wrote to be a statement against breeding small standards (small standards do not have champion prospects). But I am delighted to know that you are not opposed to breeding small standards. I guess I as Ladywolfe said, it was a miscommunication. Sounds like we are more in agreement than I thought.

My intent in responding was to affirm my belief that breeding small standards is a good thing (if done responsibly). I did not mean to attack you personally and I am very sorry for any hurt that I have caused. I hope that you can forgive me for misunderstanding your comment and I wish you the very best.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

For the people who live in Canada you can *only* register a poodle as a *POODLE*. No where on the *registration certificate* does it state the *size* of the animal. 

We Canadians have only one *Breed* - POODLE. 

Now for *show purposes* you show in the proper *size group* - either toy, mini or standard.

All my American Kennel Club poodle, dual registered, also *only* come with registration papers that say *POODLE*. Again size is NOT listed on the AKC registration papers.

Anyone can advertise a poodle however they want. It is up to the buyer of the poodle to research the terms used by a breeder. 

Most of the breeders/greeders who advertise tiny toys or teacup dogs sell poodles that end up over 10 inches at the shoulder or small but sickly. Advertising puppies as *small* standards is a little bit of a slippery slope because the adult size of the puppy may average sized to some people. 

The Poodle Club of America website lists the standard average as 22 to 27 inches at the shoulder. Unless the dog is below 22, IMO, it really isn't a small standard.


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

Ladywolfe - Your comment brought clarity and I appreciate it! 

peppersb - Thank you! Sometimes it is hard to communicate clearly in an online forum - I think we are really on the same page - breeding for a tiny poodle and breeding within the standards are definitely two different things.


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