# Fozzie The Resource Guarder



## fjm

You are very sensible to get professional advice, I think. How old is Fozzie? And have you had him from a pup? Jean Donaldson has written a good booklet on resource guarding "Mine!: a practical guide to resource guarding in dogs", which you may find useful to have as an adjunct to working it through with the trainer.


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## FozziesMom

Hi fjm, thanks for responding so kindly. Fozzie just turned a year old. I've had him since seven months. I wish I had had him sooner so I could have nipped this in the bud.

I've read Jean's book--the trainer I'm working with is one of her students. Her book had some useful background and support, but Fozzie's issue isn't around food, which the book is mostly about, it's around stolen objects and has an even more complex psychology. There's clearly a human interaction element of this that we are exacerbating but we don't know how. My partner appears to be even more of a trigger. 

I was glad to have the reassurance that constant leashing/kenneling, assuming good exercise, isn't cruel and that our case isn't hopeless or abnormal. Here's hoping this works.


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## fjm

It must be very difficult not knowing everything that he learned during those first, formative seven months. He is still very young, though - here's hoping you find the triggers quickly. There are sure to be setbacks in any programme of retraining, but I am sure you will get there in the end.


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## schnauzerpoodle

Sorry to hear about that, Fozzie's mom. Was Fozzie with his breeder before you got him? Have you talked to his breeder about this and what did s/he say? 

No, I don't think constant leashing/tethering/kenneling is cruel. You are trying not to have him rehomed. You are doing what a lot of people wouldn't even bother to do - reading and seeking help from the professional.

I hope everything will work out fine for you and Fozzie.


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## Harley_chik

It sounds like you have a good handle on things. I wish you the best of luck.


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## Feralpudel

Fozzie'sMom, I think you are absolutely doing the right things. You are in a great place geographically to find some excellent animal behaviorists who can help you through this. If it helps, the regimen suggested for Fozzie sounds similar to Susan Garrett's Ruff Love program. It is mostly designed to build a relationship with a working dog, but you might want to check it out. One caveat about the Ruff Love program--I personally don't care for head collars. I had a poodle that blew a cervical disk. It wasn't related to head collar use, but still made me very aware of not doing stuff that might stress the cervical spine. JMO. 

Don't beat up on yourself, and try to be calm and optimistic about the future.


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## flufflvr

I have no suggestions at all, just feeling bad for all of you, and hope with the trainer, he'll learn to let go. Please keep us updated.


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## FozziesMom

thank you all for the kind words and support. I feel like Fozzie's jailer. That said, I've been focused for the last two days on making sure he gets two hours a day of hard play/walk. And it really does tire him out and make him more calm. I was giving him 1 hour most days, and a few other days more. Last night was a rough night. I felt so overwhelmed with all the responsibility required (he got into a chicken neck on sunday so we're on poop watch too). A good night's sleep (and finally, a poo so we know we're out of the woods), and a wet muddy dog from today's dog park, and I'm feeling more optimistic. 

it's hard to look into that sweet poodle face when he's clearly asking to run around and play in the house. I don't want to squash his poodley-ness becaue that bouncy nature is what I love most about the breed.

that said, I will say that leashing/kenneling, for now, has brought peace back into the home because we can actually relax when doing things like work, TV, reading etc. we know he won't be getting into something he's not supposed to have and he's tired enough to just settle down and sleep. 

When I go back to work, though, it's clear he's going to need daycare, because two hours a day of playtime (not including the 20 min drive to the dog park each way) is going to be tough to manage. 

I can also observe that he is much, MUCH more submissive, he wants to follow now quietly instead of running on ahead on the leash. 

Fingers crossed, Trainer's first visit is tomorrow. Today he went to dog park for an hour and we're hoping to meet up with SchnauzerPoodle and Nickel today for his second hour. Tomorrow is a 2 hour walk in Crissy field with a friend and her very gentle pit bull on leash. 

Will keep you all posted, again thank you so much for the encouragement and support.


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## fjm

I think the management part of behavioural change is by far the most difficult - it is so unrelenting, and requires you to change all your own unthinking habits as well. I am sure he is enjoying the close attention and extra playtime, though, and if you are all more relaxed that has to be a good thing for all of you. Hang on in there - just think how wonderful it will be when you can have him loose around the house AND all be relaxed! If he is responding already, I am sure you are well on the way.


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## FozziesMom

Feralpudel said:


> One caveat about the Ruff Love program--I personally don't care for head collars. I had a poodle that blew a cervical disk. It wasn't related to head collar use, but still made me very aware of not doing stuff that might stress the cervical spine. JMO.
> 
> Don't beat up on yourself, and try to be calm and optimistic about the future.


Thanks VERY much for the tip on this. I don't think Fozzie will need this level of control right now, but I'll watch for it. he is very good on leash with just a simple collar. I was always very concerned about his neck since Poodle windpipes are so close to the skin on the front of the neck it's also easy to collapse them. He's about 90% good on the leash so I suspect we'll be ok on this one. 

thank goodness for small favors. He's not completely out of control, just has this weird resource guarding thing. that is the ONLY time I've seen him just go completely crazy.


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## FozziesMom

Hi all,

I promised an update after the trainer's visit on Thursday. Dianne (from DogmaSF) came by and she helped us a lot.

She had asked us in advance to document all of his biting incidents and I did, it was nearly three pages long single spaced. :scared: She also asked us to make sure he was tired and crated and per the beginning of this thread we have been exercising him at least two hours per day and tethering/crating/leashing at all other times. 

Fozzie was in his kennel when Dianne arrived and for the first time ever he started barking and wouldn't stop no matter what I said. more excited and warning than aggressive or scared. She told me to ignore him(and <5 minutes later he quit) and in the future he gets ONE warning, after that if he barks, he's to go in kennel or bathroom or be ignored (if he's on leash) for 5 seconds. More than that he loses track of why he's in there, she says. We talked for about half an hour before she asked us to bring him out. 

Then, she spent an hour + with us. She spent the first 15 minutes demonstrating the exercise she wants us to repeat with him, starting with an object that has no value:


Fozzie tethered to table.
Ask Fozzie to sit (good boy)
Say "Take"
Toss Toy to Fozzie's Feet (good boy)
Say "Can I have that?" (as a question)
raise right hand in the air, reaching to toy but far enough away that he can't bite us
wait for him to move away, turn head, back off, anything to move away
Click (She brought a clicker for us!), treat (given by throwing behind dog so it has to turn away), BIG Praise
Simultanously, retrieve object
Repeat Repeat Repeat

She had us both practice it individually until we got it right. Then she instructed us in the hierarchary/ladder to move him up on once he nails this:


stand far away and walk in with extending hand (she offered us a "fake hand" extension to help us feel confident)
Approach from sides
Approach from behind
Repeat ALL above steps from the beginning OFF LEASH
Then and only then, move up the ladder to an object that is more valued. 
Eventually we should be able to do this with raw marrow bones (WAY down the road)
Fozzie may not be around children for a long time. 

She was very supportive, very optimistic and hopeful. Fozzie loved her, was jumping and dancing and just seemed to LOVELOVELOVE the training with her, so positive. And he was falling asleep at one point when we took a break. But he jumped to attention when we started again. He's a really hard worker with great concentration.

Today, we took fozzie on his very first off leash park experience in a huge wild area since his recall has been so good. We even kept another pup from getting lost. That pups owners didn't see him following Fozzie when we passed them, and all of sudden they were GONE and the little tiny grey dog was lost! After about 10 mins, I leashed up Fozzie, then we all walked back, the little gray pup following us, thankfully. The owners never even said thank you. they just called their dog from 50 yards away. :fish: Here's the poodle awesome part: Their poodle mix saw that they were leaving the dog behind and he kept stopping and looking back, we called and called and they just kept walking away...

anyhoo.

Then we went to an outdoor mall, walked around, and sat outside for lunch where Fozzie got a doggie special cupcake. And the BEST BEST BEST part? he grabbed a cupcake wrapper from a human chocolate cupcake and I took it out of his mouth with ZERO incident. 

Think we tired him out enough today? See attachment 

Fingers crossed. Will post again when we're farther up the ladder or if we have any backtracks. Thank you again for all the support.


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## schnauzerpoodle

sounds like a very productive day!! good job, fozzie (re: cupcake wrapper incident). keep on with your good job and your mama will be super happy. 

p.s. which outdoor mall did u guys go?


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## FozziesMom

schnauzerpoodle said:


> p.s. which outdoor mall did u guys go?


We did the outdoor hike at Las Pulgas in San Carlos. You hike up on leash then there's a 17 acre off leash area.  (you should see all the burrs I'm picking out of the coat right now...:doh

The mall was Stanford Mall, such a beautiful outdoor mall with lots of flowers and sunshine. Most of the stores allow dogs and were so nice to him, welcoming him, giving him treats and water. Was great!


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## Fluffyspoos

That's great! It sounds like you got an amazing trainer! I love her methods!


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## Olie

And then there was light! I hope this trainer can help get Fozzie to a better place. She sounds pretty good. Good luck.


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## FozziesMom

OMG most amazing thing just happened!

As I was sending an email, Fozzie stole his flexi leash from off the table. I waited til he got it fully, then asked, "Can I have that? and then extended my arm up (but didn't reach in for the object). He IMMEDIATELY dropped the leash and backed away at which point I took the object, then melted down in a pile of good boys! and huge liver treats!


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## Marian

Yay!!!


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## Fluffyspoos

FozziesMom said:


> OMG most amazing thing just happened!
> 
> As I was sending an email, Fozzie stole his flexi leash from off the table. I waited til he got it fully, then asked, "Can I have that? and then extended my arm up (but didn't reach in for the object). He IMMEDIATELY dropped the leash and backed away at which point I took the object, then melted down in a pile of good boys! and huge liver treats!


Would this have usually been a very bad situation?


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## bigpoodleperson

:rock::rock::rock:


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## 1Jurisdiva

I'm so happy to hear this! I didn't have any tips to offer, but was reading the thread with my fingers crossed that things would start to turn around.


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## FozziesMom

Fluffyspoos said:


> Would this have usually been a very bad situation?


Yes, biting is a problem with anything "stolen". It doesn't matter what the object was, if he "stole" it from a table, the bedroom, even sometimes out of your hand, he guarded it with his life. He hadn't stolen the flexi leash before, but still. progress. We are currently up the ladder on the "crack ball" and it's going well. Next up will be one of the guarded objects, probably the sock since it's less "valuable" to us.


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## Feralpudel

FM, I am really enjoying your accounts of your journey with Fozzie. It is very interesting and instructive to hear how you are going about working through this issue with a professional trainer. It sounds like you are making great progress!


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## penny_ann

That's awesome FozziesMom. I'm so proud of Fozzie! Glad you both enjoyed Stanford mall, been wanting to take Penny there as I've heard great things about how dog friendly it was.


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## CelticKitti

Isn't it an amazing feeling when you get something accomplished!! Congrats on the small step!! Resource guarding can be very ugly, you are handling this very well!! Keep up all the good work and keep us posted!!


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## CharismaticMillie

FozziesMom said:


> We did the outdoor hike at Las Pulgas in San Carlos. You hike up on leash then there's a 17 acre off leash area. (you should see all the burrs I'm picking out of the coat right now...:doh
> 
> The mall was Stanford Mall, such a beautiful outdoor mall with lots of flowers and sunshine. Most of the stores allow dogs and were so nice to him, welcoming him, giving him treats and water. Was great!


I miss Stanford Mall! I went to college at Santa Clara University and would always to go Stanford Mall for Bloomingdales, ha ha. I remember it being very dog friendly! California is pretty dog friendly in general, compared to Missouri!


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## FozziesMom

Thanks all for the words of encouragement. We have a long road ahead of us, judging by the long list of homework the trainer just sent over, the obedience and management part is pretty hard work. 

Tonight Fozzie was just being a pain. Even after 3.5 hours of walks on the leash, 2 of which were right before dinner, he still wouldn't settle when tethered to the table, kept table surfing, pacing, chewing on the leash. So we crated him. Barking and growling. So we covered the crate. Silence. Remove dog from crate, try again. Repeat....

Trainer says he's starting to basically have a temper tantrum and stay strong. 

I can't believe this. I know that god gives you the poodle you need, not necessarily the poodle you want....but oh how I never expected this level of work. I hope it will all be worth it. When I read the "difficult pup" thread I get scared for us.


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## fjm

Excellent news! Sounds like you have a wise and sensible trainer, and good support from her.

There will inevitably be steps backwards, as well as forwards. Have you thought of keeping a diary, so that you can see that you are making progress? Just look at how far you have come already - and I only went away for the weekend!


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## FozziesMom

fjm said:


> Excellent news! Sounds like you have a wise and sensible trainer, and good support from her.
> 
> There will inevitably be steps backwards, as well as forwards. Have you thought of keeping a diary, so that you can see that you are making progress? Just look at how far you have come already - and I only went away for the weekend!


I'm kind of using this thread for that purpose.  Folks seems to be ok with it, but do let me know if it's being overly annoying or selfish.


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## schnauzerpoodle

You said Fozzie didn't settle even after a lot of exercises. Have you tried using a clicker? I learned from class how to use the 'click & zen' technique and we, as well as other dogs in class, have been able to use this to calm our puppies down within the first 5 minutes of the class. Yes, we are able to calm our dogs down when there are other dogs as well as distractions going on in the classroom. Let me know if you want to try it and I can forward you with the instructions.


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## CharismaticMillie

FozziesMom said:


> I'm kind of using this thread for that purpose.  Folks seems to be ok with it, but do let me know if it's being overly annoying or selfish.


I like hearing your daily progress!


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## spoowhisperer

FozziesMom said:


> I'm kind of using this thread for that purpose.  Folks seems to be ok with it, but do let me know if it's being overly annoying or selfish.


Oh I think this could be a beneficial thread for anyone who is searching for help on this issue! Please keep us updated!


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## fjm

Good idea using this thread as a journal - gives you an inbuilt support group, too!


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## FozziesMom

schnauzerpoodle said:


> You said Fozzie didn't settle even after a lot of exercises. Have you tried using a clicker? I learned from class how to use the 'click & zen' technique and we, as well as other dogs in class, have been able to use this to calm our puppies down within the first 5 minutes of the class. Yes, we are able to calm our dogs down when there are other dogs as well as distractions going on in the classroom. Let me know if you want to try it and I can forward you with the instructions.


yes PLEASE thank you!


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## fjm

How are things going, FM? Have you reached the dreaded "one step forward, two steps back" stage yet?!


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## FozziesMom

fjm said:


> How are things going, FM? Have you reached the dreaded "one step forward, two steps back" stage yet?!


Thanks for checking in. We're doing fine, but he is also leashed or kenneled whenever in the house so he doesn't have much opportunity to grab objects and guard them.

We are about to move up the ladder to marrow bones. So far, every time we ask him "Can I have that?" --even if we have no treat--he drops the object and backs away. He's done it outside, inside if we forget or drop something near him, all over. he seems to think it's a game now, which is good. 

So, once he's able to have a marrow bone given up by this method, off leash, then it's time for our trainer to talk to us again. She said he's not allowed off leash in the house other than for training purposes, until he is bombproof, or basically when a stranger can reach in and take the marrow bone away. 

wow. 

So, yes, work continues. There's no drama, just daily work. so far, so good.

An interesting side note: I wrote to my breeder to talk to her and let her know what was going on and used the time to update her with everything I know about Fozzie. I found her very defensive of him, she would make statements like "he's trying very hard to be a good dog." Also, when I mentioned that he didn't have 3 teeth and his feet turned out she said that as an AKC judge she sees this all the time and neither are conformational faults. She said that as his chest drops as he ages, the feet turn back in again. That was very interesting to me. Regardless, we both agree that the extra exercise is critical to managing this problem, with less than 2 hours a dy of off leash running (and I do mean running full out) he is anxious, pacing, and hard to settle in the house. 

We'll see. Thank you for caring enough to ask how we are doing!


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## fjm

Sounds as if you are doing well - congratulations!


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## Locket

You are doing a FANTASTIC job with Fozzie!! Awesome trainer too!


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## penny_ann

Sounds like you are an excellent job. Keep us updated!


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## Chagall's mom

*schauzerpoodle*: Please forward ME those "click & zen" instructions, if you would. Chagall has decided to be a "teenager" lately and I could use a new way to help him "chill" when he's dealing with distractions (like squirrels, deer, fox, etc.). I may just have to sign him up for a Yoga class (lol!)


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## FozziesMom

*setback*

well it was bound to happen. 

We have just returned from a 3 week trip and we picked Fozzie up from the kennel on Sunday. he was fine if a bit lethargic and tired (it's been really hot here plus he gets like 10 hours a day of exercise at the kennel). 

I had only been giving him one hour of exercise in the morning the last two days because the temperatures have been dangerously high in the afternoons, over 95 degrees, and remember he is solid black.

Today I thought it would help keep Fozzie cool if I gave him a frozen raw bone. We'd been doing some work on exchanging it for treats and tonight as I gave it to him I warned my BF to stay away unless he wanted to practice protocol, which I did a demonstration of.

Well, things were going along fine for an hour or two and I was at the computer working. BF got up to go to the kitchen walked around or over Fozzie and that's when Fozzie attacked his feet without warning. as BF tried to get away Fozzie bit his foot again and again. I got BF to stand still so Fozzie would stop and back away, which they did. Then BF got angry and started yelling at at Fozzie and Fozzie started lunging and growling (thank goodness we had Fozzie on a leash). BF escalated and threw a soft pillow which also kept Fozzie on edge. (please note that BF has never hit me, Fozzie, or anyone, though he can be a yeller, he is not violent in anyway, this was the first time I've ever seen this). 

I was trying to calm BF down explaining that it makes it worse. Got BF to back off and wait while I calmly called Fozzie to me with treats. It makes my heart break to say that he came to me with his head down so scared and so trustingly. I gave him treats and petted him, then tried to pick him up to take him to kennel at which point he bit me, but not hard, and immediately stopped and licked my feet. I lured him into the kennel with treats and he is there now. 

The wounds on BF's feet are not serious, only one minor puncture and some scrapes. 

But I'm not sure if the wounds of the heart will heal. I'm someone who thinks a dog bite means I did something wrong, but in BF's case he thinks it's the dog's fault.

I've written the trainer and will update when I know more. But my dog has made so much progress so far that I am not stopping now, no matter what BF wants. He has to learn how to behave around dogs and that yelling at them will only make the problem worse.

Update from trainer: she says I started on PhD level stuff with the raw bone when I should have jumped back to square 1 to help him acclimate again. As I said, I always take it as my fault and time to do better. I hope the BF can do the same. He blames me, too and he's probably right. 

Donning the hairshirt tonight,

FM


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## fjm

Oh the temptation to jump a few steps when things are going well! Your trainer sounds like an extremely sensible woman - pity your BF does not have more experience with what actually works around dogs, but no doubt it is a learning experience for him, too. I am sure you will get there eventually with Fozzie - and perhaps applying the reward-based training techniques to BF may smooth things there, as well? (And I am NOT going to get into a discussion as to the reward...!)


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## FozziesMom

we both woke up early this morning, still jet lagged from our Europe trip and talked for a bit. I also learned more about what happened. BF said he walked over to pet Fozzie and Fozzie just bit him, but earlier he had done a poke/jab to get him to stop lunging at the cat when on leash. BF also hadn't been following the treat protocol, which is that he is supposed to drop treats off every time he goes by Fozzie, since Fozzie goes "Flat" (trainer's word) around BF. 

BF is frustrated and having to learn the hard way about dogs. He is mad at me for giving him the bone and agitating him and he is right about that. But he's calmed down considerably and willing to start over at square one.

So, there we are. What else can we do but pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and start again? There's no possibility of rehoming at this point since a dog with a serious bite history will in most cases be put down. And I don't think I could do that anyway. I love my dog too much. 

On another, related note, 

Last night one of my neighbors was asking about Fozzie's issue, he is so kind, and has a golden doodle, and this nosy other neighbor with a big sloppy sweet golden who probably never acted up in his whole life, butted in to inform me that my trainer was "full of ***" and that I should just be taking the item from Fozzie without discussion (rather than saying "can I have that?"), because that's what she did and it worked. I tried to calmly explain that we tried that and he just started guarding as a result and the new expression isn't about asking but re programming Fozzies brain from the negative associations with "Drop it", and she went on to berate me and say I was babying and pampering my dog. I was pretty disgusted by that behavior, that supercilious know it all judgementalism, so if I ever sound that way, please call me on it. None of us knows really what we're dealing with offline, either in dog, in past history, or in current situation. We shouldn't judge each other but try to support and offer the best advice we can. The people that come here to ask for help actually care or they wouldn't bother to come here so I for one am going to keep reminding myself of that.


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## Chagall's mom

*FozziesMom:* As far as I'm concerned, you deserve the Nobel Peace (Poodle?) Prize for your unfaltering commitment to Fozzie. I just don't want you to be too hard on yourself! There's not a person or dog that hasn't had a misstep now and then. You're absolutely heroic in my book and I'm glad your trainer has you back on course. As for your BF, he's learning the lesson many men need to which is, they have to defer at times to their "children," be they fur or human. (Would he scream at a baby?) I hope he learns from your well-reasoned way of approaching Fozzie's issues that the energy he projects is what he'll get back. If you bellow at a dog, you can expect it to bark back, so to speak. Good luck with moving forward. I think you're a very special person to truly live your devotion to your minipoo the way you do.


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## FozziesMom

Chagalls Mom, your kind words brought tears to my eyes. thank you so much. Who knew I'd have to train the dog AND the man? ::wry grin::


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## neVar

Seriously- you are giving so much time and love and effort to this dog and yes it's very very hard. 

The good thing about resource gaurding is- it IS avoidable. (VS say actual agression) you know what the Trigger is and can avoid it. 

it does sound like last night was extremely scary- and emotional. IT's tough to deal with the emotional ups and downs of a dog with issues. Cudos to you for continuing on and trying to make progress.


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## ziggylu

I'm sorry you've had this setback but hope you won't be too discouraged by it. You've all been making such great progress! Good luck as you continue on!


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## Feralpudel

fjm said:


> I am sure you will get there eventually with Fozzie - and perhaps applying the reward-based training techniques to BF may smooth things there, as well? (And I am NOT going to get into a discussion as to the reward...!)


Fozziesmom, don't be discouraged. You've been doing great, and just had a setback. You've been making great progress, and shouldn't forget that. 

FJM's comment reminded me of this funny episode from Big Bang Theory:


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## FozziesMom

now that's hilarious. BF LOVES chocolate.  

You know, I've got my dog off leash in the house while BF is at work and you know, he's FINE. sure, he makes mistakes, grabs stuff, counter surfs, tries to chase the cat, but each time I just calmly train and right now he's lying quietly at my feet no leash required. Sure, I've removed the garbage can and closed off some rooms, but isn't that how training starts? You remove the leash in a controlled environment, then slowly add stuff back in.


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## Fluffyspoos

LOL! We were just watching that episode!


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## fjm

You have come such a long way, and so has Fozzie, in just a few weeks - it is less than 8 weeks since your first post, and you were away for a big chunk of that! HUGE congratulations to you both, and onwards and upwards for the next 8 weeks! (Chocolate is inexpensive and easy - and not as time consuming as some of the alternatives ... )


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## FozziesMom

Hi all, just a quick update. Nosework class has been going well, and Fozzie has started to really get excited about and enjoy it. The trainer said watching him go from uncertain to jumping up and down with joy when entering class is really rewarding to her, and yeah, it is for me too. :amen:

Since I threw away the marrow bones, the incidents are less and less and we are very strict with the protocol. Life seems to have settled down dramatically. FozziesPa and I have been having heart to heart talks about our relationship and how we relate to each other. We are often loud and we see poor Fozz sometimes very concerned and to tell the truth we don't like it either. So we now "time out" ourselves when either one of us is getting upset and feels like things will escalate. In all situations now within an hour we're back to talking to each other and things work themselves out. I think this has to lead to a more relaxed dog eventually, too.

Fozzie bit his Pa the other night when he was walking him while I was out and he tried to take a wood chip out of Fozzie's mouth. sigh. So I had a special training session for man and beast and explained that he needed to have his treat bag (I bought a special manly one for him) with him at every outing and showed him how to walk Fozzie with head up so he can't take things on the ground and I have also started carrying treats at all times on pee runs (had gotten lax there) and now Fozzie when he picks something up in his mouth drops it immediately knowing he'll get a treat. I swear half the time is complaince for the human, not the dog. 

So we seem to be in some kind of normal pattern again. It looks very likely I'll be back to work very soon, and FozziesPa has offered to watch Fozz when he works from home on Mondays and Fridays so long as I walk him in the morning to get the zoomies out. Then Tue-Wed-Thur I've found a high quality doggie day care that will make sure he's as tired as I am when I get home from work.  

So, that's where we're at. One day at a time. Plus the dog ages and grows out of some of it, and you learn to manage. That's where I am, tonight. 

Thanks for all the support....

FM


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## fjm

I am so glad to hear you are still working on it, and making progress - I know how it can feel one step forwards, two backwards a lot of the time, but if you look back to where you were a few months ago, you must see a dramatic change.

I love the idea of "not in front of the dog" to cool heated discussions!


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## penny_ann

Thanks for the update. Definitely sounds like progress to me!


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## Trillium

I'm so impressed at all the hard work you are putting in and it really sounds like things are def. improving. Keep us posted.


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## schnauzerpoodle

I'm glad to know that you and FP are talking. Don't let the communication stop!

Good luck, FM! You are a great mom. Did Fozzie tell you that?

Oh, may I know the name of the daycare? I may need to put Nickel to one of those sometime soon (one of my colleagues will be leaving us soon and I will need to work more hours).


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## FozziesMom

SF Hound Lounge. My trainer recommended it, saying that the Wag and K9 Playtime would not be a good fit for him. The former is a bit industrial, the latter uses Ceasar Millan style jabs which don't work for us. Would Love it if Nickel and Fozzie could play together during the day!  I'd also be happy to be pick up backups from there for you guys if need be since I'll be working close by.


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## schnauzerpoodle

I'll check out SF Hound Lounge and thank you so much for your offer


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## FozziesMom

*another step backwards*

Pretty much since last incident things had been going well. Lately, FozziePa had been having Fozzie on his lap on the couch at night holding him, a lot, and I thought things were going well. It was good to come home at night and see Fozzie snuggled in Pa's lap. Daycare had been making for a tired dog who would curl up on floor or on lap at night sleeping soundly and all around we were happy.


We had another major incident last night, which to me was mysterious, and serious on FozziesPa. Pa went to leash him after having him on his lap on the couch last night, after a full day of daycare, which we do most nights, Fozzie had his bully stick, when Pa reached in, Fozzie bit him and then when Pa backed away, Fozzie, literally attacked him on his feet, then was jumping up to bite his arms. He was literally going crazy on him. I had to take a blanket and wrap it around him to hold him until he let go of Pa's sweater. He didn't attack me or bite me at all, he let me leash him and kennel him without incident. Pa was furiously angry and started throwing Fozzie's toys around the room and threw away all his bully sticks and food toys. I calmly removed Fozzie to the bedroom and crated him while everyone cooled off. Then I took him out to potty and he went to sleep. I am worried that when I have to be away tonight with a girlfriend, something will happen again and FozziesPa will not be able to control his temper. I offered to kennel Fozzie tonight to give Pa a break and Pa says he will be ok. 

I seriously wonder, what on earth is wrong? Pa is not a hitter, so there's no reason for Fozzie to feel afraid of him. 

I seriously wonder, should we have gotten a dog? This dog? 

Do we have to consider giving him up or putting him down or are we being too harsh?


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## Feralpudel

Oh, FM, I am sorry to hear of this setback. I can see how frightening it must have been for everybody, but try not to get discouraged--you all have made so much progress. I would talk with your behaviorist about what happened. In the meantime, I would do everything you feel you need to do to keep it from happening again--taking up bully sticks, keeping Fozzie kenneled at first when he is alone with Pa, backtrack a bit in the privileges that Fozzie has and the routines you follow. 

Don't beat up on yourself about this. You have made great progress with Fozzie, and are doing so much to try and address this. 

Upon reread, do you have to be away all night, or just in the evening? Is there a very safe routine that FP can follow to minimize the chance of another incident, e.g., keeping a leash on Fozzie, no bully sticks around, etc.? 

Also, it sounds like reaching for Fozzie's collar to leash him when he was busy with the bully stick was part of the problem. What if he called him away from the bully stick to another neutral area to put his leash on, so there was no confusion. I'm not trying to excuse Fozzie's behavior, but at this point, I would avoid any situation where FP is reaching down towards Fozzie.


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## FozziesMom

Thanks FeralPudle,

I am frustrated. I didn't expect this with dog ownership. we had four dogs when I was a kid and never once a bite or a problem. I just want to be happy and relaxed with my dog around. I want him to enjoy us and be relaxed and be a fun dog. I don't want to be dealing with this the rest of his life--fearful he'll bite us or god forbid a small child if we ever have any. 

I hate the way this sounds. I think people who abandon their dogs at shelters are so cruel, and it breaks my heart. I would never abandon my boy, I would have him put down in my arms before I'd take a risk that someone else would abuse him. 

But I can tell you, I am at my wits end! I feel I do so much for this dog. 3 days a week of daycare, 8-10 hours of dog playing and socialization. 2 hours of exercise on days when no daycare. Raw food. strict management. Nosework training, obedience training, and tons of love. 

When do you know you've done all you can? I'm angry at FozziesPa, who knew a man can be so dense when it comes to dogs? I told him flat out that Fozzies Life is now in his hands. That his ability to do what he is told and learn to live with Fozzie will determine Fozzie's fate. I have done everything I can. Everything. At some point he has to take responsibility for what he sees as my dog and my problem. 

And if the unthinkable happens I will never get another dog. I just could never take that chance with another life. And I hate the thought of life without a dog...and it makes me hate my partner too.

thank you for listening.


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## cbrand

I'm so sorry.


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## Cdnjennga

I'm so sorry about your situation. The pain you are feeling comes straight through the screen. I can't think of any advice to give, other than to say please do vent your frustration here whenever you need to! I have my fingers crossed that this was a temporary setback on the road to recovery/ management.


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## plumcrazy

FozziesMom said:


> I hate the way this sounds. I think people who abandon their dogs at shelters are so cruel, and it breaks my heart. I would never abandon my boy, I would have him put down in my arms before I'd take a risk that someone else would abuse him.


So sorry you're having to go through this. I managed a humane society and it was heartbreaking when people surrendered their pets to us, but sometimes it was what was best for the pet and the family. Have you ever researched poodle rescue, specifically? I only have experience with my own poodles, and Fozzie's behavior isn't something I've ever witnessed in my own dogs, but maybe someone in a poodle rescue would be able to take the time and effort to find just the right placement for him (where a traditional, overcrowded shelter may not...)

It's unfortunate that Fozzie can't seem to relax around your BF. Your description of how he is with you, alone, sounds like he's well behaved and balanced - but something about your BF sets him off... Maybe a poodle rescue could find him a home with a single woman, or a couple who Fozzie doesn't feel the need to challenge.

I know if it were me in this situation, I would do everything within my power to keep my dog with me, and it sounds like you've been doing just that; but Fozzie isn't responding as well or as quickly as you need him to. Praying that things work out the way they are meant to - you have done so much for this boy!!

Barb


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## Feralpudel

plumcrazy said:


> Have you ever researched poodle rescue, specifically? I only have experience with my own poodles, and Fozzie's behavior isn't something I've ever witnessed in my own dogs, but maybe someone in a poodle rescue would be able to take the time and effort to find just the right placement for him (where a traditional, overcrowded shelter may not...)
> Barb


Dogs with any sort of bite history are really tough for rescues, because they raise liability issues.

And I can't imagine a better mom for Fozzie than, well, FozziesMom. I am hoping that this is just a temporary setback for Fozzie and his mom...and that Fozzie's Pa will find a generous helping of dog sense in his Christmas stocking! :nod:


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## schnauzerpoodle

I'm so sorry, FM. Fozzie never gave me the impression that he's a biter when we met. I can tell you are providing the best for Fozzie.

Did he agree to having a dog when you brought in Fozzie? I'm wondering if it's some kind of resentment. I am not trying to find Fozzie an excuse nor am I trying to put a blame on your bf. I could imagine how awful it is for him to be bitten multiple times.

Was FP present when you talked with the behaviorist? Has he physically gone to any of the classes/training sessions? My husband has never had any pets before Nickel and he didn't quite like the idea of getting one. He finally gave in (yes, he sees it as giving in) because he wanted me to be happy. Now he loves Nickel and I am very grateful. He didn't participate in Nickel's puppy socials nor kindergarten. Back then he didn't realize how he should handle a puppy. He chased after Nickel yelling when he stole his socks. I kept telling him he was making it a game for the puppy. He seemed to understand the concept when he was calm and when Nickel wasn't doing anything wrong. BUT he continued to do the no-no's at the "crime scene". I talked to Nickel's trainer and she told me to get my husband to the class. He got to see how all puppy owners train their puppies. He got to see how many repetitions we had to go through even for a simple "sit" command. Before, he only got to the see the end product. He learned how his chasing/yelling/screaming or whatever things that I told him not to do can affect the dog. He actually witnessed that. Guess what? Since he came regularly to the classes, he started to follow all the rules, without me nagging non-stop! He came to a few junior high classes. He came to workshops. He came to some playgroups. Now he can even pinpoint some problematic pawrent behaviors at playgroups. 

In the past few posts, I saw that you talked about how your bf couldn't follow what he's been told. Do you think it's because he doesn't see why he should (or should not) do what he's been told? Again, not blaming anyone; just brainstorming.

If you had to have Fozzie put down, I'm afraid it would ruin the relationship between you and your bf. Imagine the resentment and the rage …. So, don't give up just yet. 

I wish the breeder were more helpful in this matter.


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## Mini-Mum

Yeah, where IS the breeder in your hour of need?

Has Fozzie had a consultation with a vet and a full medical workup to rule out any thyroid, other physical or neurological problems?


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## penny_ann

So sorry. Wish I could help in some way. Please remember we all are always here for venting.


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## fjm

So very sorry to hear of your troubles, especially when it really seemed your hard work was paying off. Perhaps it may be time to talk with your nearest dedicated poodle rescue - if only so you have a good idea of the options available to you. How has FP been at following through the advice of your behaviourist? And how does he feel about where you should all go next?


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## FozziesMom

*Update*

Thank you all for such kind and supportive words. It's telling that I go here first when I am feeling so overwhelmed with it all--we really have an amazing resource here in each other and I am so grateful for each and every one of you. 

The trainer came by yesterday (Sunday morning housecall--what a gem she is!). First thing she asked FP was: " do you want to keep this dog?" and he answered immediately: "Yes" and it was a very strong, quick yes and as she pointed out it was as if he'd given it a lot of thought. She felt convinced that Fozzie could be managed though he will always be a sensitive little dog. 

So then we went on to more training. FP is back to square one dropping off 15-20 treats a day, just walking by. He is to do this for weeks. then he'll walk by while looking, then with one arm out, etc etc. Trainer says it will be a year before Fozzie will be comfortable with FP and for him to take all emotion out of it and think of Fozzie as a science project. 

Meanwhile, since my trust with Fozzie is higher, my job is to work on collar grabs, and de sensitizing him to that. I have a protocol to work on.

I noticed with my trainer's help that Fozzie is really stressed by approaching and collar grabs. I mean shut down sensitive. I had never noticed it before, but it's clear even just walking up to him terrifies him. When the trainer reached her hand behind him he really got stressed so it's clear to me I have a lot of work to do with him. 

Also, I just noticed my pup has stopped playing the last few weeks. I was probably not noticing as much with the new job and how tired he's been with daycare, but last night it took a good 10 mins to get him riled up enough to just PLAY!!!!! (and you poodle owners know that's just ridiculously long--poodles, especially young ones, LOVE Play.). So I realized I've also been letting my pup down, he needs more than just "exercise" and "dog socialization". he needs time to just get silly and goofy. Last night I just took the collar off and we ran around the house like crazy for 15 minutes and I reminded myself why I got a dog in the first place. I did it again this morning and I'm going to make it a priority to do this morning and night. doesn't have to be much, just enough to help the poor pup RELAX. He's just so tense! 

The trainer thinks maybe at the daycare they have roughed up the collar thing and suggested i ask them if they've noticed the collar sensitivity which is also a good idea. And to the point about the vet visit: I've been thinking similar things. One, he has 3 teeth that never came in and I'm wondering if there's any mouth sensitivity (though he doesn't mind me brushing teeth) and two, as trainer also said, probably good to check thyroid levels. 

Thank you for continuing to be my first place to go when it happens. I feel so alone when it does...partner upset, dog in kennel, me feeling well..alone. Knowing that I have people here who believe in us and Fozzie means so much to me and your words have brought me more comfort than you know.


Also quick edit: my breeder has offered to take him back, but I fear it means essentially the same outcome: rehoming or euthanasia. She just seems to say "He is a good dog, and is trying so hard." as if to put it all on me. Not helpful.


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## schnauzerpoodle

We are here for you, FozzieMom. You are not alone. Glad to know that Fozzie's Pa is not giving up. Have you shown him some appreciation yet? I think he needs some encouragement too 

I understand how it's like to have a young pup and a new job plus all the other obligations in life. But I know you can make it. 

I still remember the big smile you had on your face the last time we met up in the dog park. Don't give up. It will take time and patience and effort and it's not easy. But then you will have a little inky black pup that looks up to you and loves you.

p.s. My husband never liked black dogs/cats/anything but after meeting Fozzie twice, he has started to see the beauty of a black poodle.


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## Karma'sACat

((hugs))
It sounds like you have a fantastic behaviorist and hopefully she can help FP to take the emotion out of things.
I am glad a vet check (esp. thyroid levels) was suggested. I would ask for a full blood panel including thyroid.
You really are doing amazing things for Fozzie and I know that most other people wouldn't have put so much effort and love in to helping him.


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## Feralpudel

Thanks for the update FM, and it sounds like you are in a better place now. I had one thought in response to your earlier posts about doggie daycare--are you positive that Fozzie enjoys his time there? A trainer I respect a lot recently commented that a lot of dogs don't really enjoy doggie daycare. Some dogs aren't that into playing, while others are bullied by a few of the dogs (and bullying isn't always obvious aggression). 

You might want to check out some books on playtraining for some ideas on engaging Fozzie in play. One of my favorite ideas from Bobbie Anderson is to bang a toy on the floor. Body position makes a big difference--the lower you can make yourself, the more it is an invitation to play (this is a problem when I am lying on the floor to do my crunches and back exercises!). 

Have you looked into TTouch? It might be something else to add to your interactions with Fozzie. 

Keep us posted, and try not to get discouraged.


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## FozziesMom

Feralpudel,

Great questions. Fozzie's trainer and I had a long talk about what to do with him when I went back to work. We both agreed that for now day care is the best option because he is in the best spirits when tired out, and we both believed one hour a day with a dog walker wasn't going to cut it. This daycare was also recommended by Fozzie's trainer (not because she knows the people, they hadn't heard of her, but because it's the one she knows of as causing the least problems.)

that said, we know there is bad with the good, and we're prepared to adjust if it isnt work out. I can report that Fozzie Runs into the daycare, tail wagging and seems to be happy to see the humans who care for him each morning). He also seems wiped and basically sleeps from the moment he eats until he wakes up next morning (with a potty out before bed). The day he had this last incident, he'd had a bath instead of an all day play and I wonder if as a result he didn't get enough exercise. Hard to know. Today is his first day back into daycare and I plan to give him some relaxed play in the house after dinner for a few mins to relax him before I go to the movies and leave him with FozziesPa. They were alone together all night thursday night and Friday morning and they were fine. 

So.....one day at a time. 

We have carpet and now I can get fozzie to play no problem since I made the commitment to play twice a day. last night I had him so tired his tongue was lolling out the right side of his mouth and he wanted MORE! 

I don't know what TTouch is but I'll Google it and Bobbie Anderson.

Thank you SO Much for taking the time to try and help us. You are an angel.:angel:

Warmly,

FM


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## FozziesMom

*Updates*

I'm sorry it's been so long since I wrote. I recently got an email via SchnauzerPoodle from someone who wants to meet Fozzie at Poodle Day in a few weeks, and it prompted me to return here and write. Again I hope doing all of this continues to help other poodle and dog owners. (There was also an article in Whole Dog Journal this month of an owner's trials and tribulations with separation anxiety that reminded me a LOT of what we went through. The things we do for our furkids!

anyways, I can report that Fozzie is still with us and has made amazing progress. My last note was at the end of 2010. As Fozzie passed 2 years old in August of 2011 things started to noticeably improve. In those intervening 8 months we had one more major incident and numerous much smaller ones. As Fozzie approached 2.5 years in early 2012 things had improved considerably and right now I can say that I can't remember the last time we had a serious bite around here. (maybe six months ago?)

We've been in the middle of buying and renovating a home the last 12 months which is why I've been really too busy to write much. But that is over, soon we are moving in finally and life will return to normal. During this time, Fozzie has really been the most wonderful dog. He is one of the most sensitive and sweet little love bugs on the planet. Wants to be with us all the time and has become quite a major cuddler. I still would never *take* something from him without warning, but over time now, most of the time all I have to do is look at him or hold out my hand and he jumps back awy from the object. I haven't tested him on marrow bones, I feel it's not worth it to mess with. So there is still a large component of "management" --aka keeping him away from stuff that's dangerous so we don't have to take it away from him--but it's become almost second nature to us. 

Fozzie still loves to test us, especially when he wants our attention. Today we were grabbing a very rare nap this afternoon and even though he'd just been outside to play, Fozzie would not settle down, so he stole a sock, jumped on the bed and stood, brushing my face with said sock. I kept my eyes closed and he fell asleep in my arms with the sock between his front paws. 

I've learned so much about my dog through this and I daresay he is even more special to me due to what we've been through together. 

fozzie and his pa, I call them my boys, seem to get along great. Fozzie spends a lot of time on Pa's lap when I'm gone, and seems to really wnat the three of us to go places together, likes to herd us, know where we both are etc. He obviously prefers his mamma but pa is ok now too. On this part, pa understands to leave Fozzie alone when he's sleeping. Just this last weekend Fozzie was snuggled in bed with us (we let him out of his crate in the morning for snuggles) and was burrowed down under the covers snuggled up to pa. it was an amazing sight that brought tears to my eyes. 

I am no dog trainer, I'd never promise this could happen to any dog. but if you are out there and you are wondering if it's worth it. It is. If you are wondering if you're all alone, you are not. No dog is perfect. Mine will be sensitive and slightly shy for the rest of his life, but he's my baby. 

Tonight I was walking him and 2 strangers came by and said, wow, what a low energy poodle. 

I'm sure you'll share that laugh with me.....


thanks to all who supported me and listened to me in so many dark hours. you kept me strong and resolute. Knowing I had understanding support here saved this dog's life. what we do here is special and important. Reading the article in whole dog journal reminded me of it. Only other pet owners can truly understand why we bother to invest so much in these creatures. 

FM


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## FozziesMom

and an edit: I have some "tips" or "things I learned" that I'll add in a bit. it's late here.


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## schnauzerpoodle

I'm so proud of you, FP and of course Fozzie. I know and witness what you guys have done for this little dog and I thank you for not giving up on him and all the effort you have invested in making this happen.

A lot of people don't know how valuable it is to have a dog sitting calmly in their lap. I understand, too well….

Let's arrange a poodle playdate soon!


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## fjm

I am so very, very happy to hear this, and look forward to reading your tips and advice. So many people expect a quick fix and instant results - you have recognised that it takes commitment, persistance and dogged determination to change a deeply rooted behaviour, and stuck with it. Congratulations to all three of you!


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## Chagall's mom

*FozziesMom*: I'm delighted to hear of your inspiring success! Every poodle should have such devoted owners. You've not only done right by Fozzie, but so many others by your example. I felt all along Fozzie had a forever home with you, I'm so glad it's now a safe, happily-every-after one. Best wishes in your newly renovated home. Have fun at Carmel Poodle Day!!


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## lily cd re

I'm relatively new to the forum, but when I saw the title to the thread and that it just had new posts I decided to look at it. I could see shades of resource guarding in Lily when she was in that 7-8 month age range. I am so glad I was able to nip it in the bud. You are to be commended for your kind patience. Enjoy the rewards of all that work for many years to come.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

What a lovely, positive update! Good on you for sticking with it and working it out. Enjoy your dog and your new home!!


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## pgr8dnlvr

Thankyou so much for this thread. I too look forward to seeing your tips and advice FM!! 

Lily, how did you "nip your problem in the bud"? I love to hear what worked for people who had success in dealing with problems like these.

One thing I have learned in general in the last year and a half is that most often poodles are NOT "easy" dogs. Sometimes I think they're ALMOST as twisted in the head as CATS (heaven forbid). Lol . I'm sure the fact I went with a toy instead of a standard has a lot to do with most "issues" though...

Rebecca


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## lily cd re

When I noticed that Lily was starting to be possessive about certain things I really did two things. First was to decide that I wouldn't give some of them at all. She was really nasty to me one night when she had an edible nylabone. I couldn't get it away from her and it was a big one that I thought she didn't need to finish all at once. We decided then and there that edible nylabones weren't for us. I don't want to give her the chance to pick a fight with Peeves over something like this. She has bossy bitch genes and he is such a pack member/follower dog I thought this was the best thing in that regard. 

For things we wanted to keep in our lives (balls for example) I've done a number of things and I refresh this training when I see the need arise (Like today when she had taken a ball that I didn't really want her to have just then. I had put it in a bag to take for when we are away next weekend. She took it and eventually ran into our agility tunnel with it, laid down in the middle of 20' tunnel and wouldn't come out.). Here are the various things I have done.

1. Put ball on front of dog while dog on down stay. Tell dog leave it. After sufficient time, but before dog can't stand it anymore and gets up, release dog to take ball.

2. Take ball from dog. Hold it up out of her reach close to my body. Tell her to sit. Talk to and pet ball and tell it I am glad it is mine (sounds stupid I know, but mostly I want her to know that I can interact with the ball while she watches). Throw ball when done talking to it.

3. Put dog on sit. Hold ball in her reach but tell her leave it. Give her food treat and "good" every time she looks away from it. End by throwing ball for her.

Puppies can learn about this by continuously taking things away and then giving them right back for a quick sit or down.

You are right that poodles are not easy dogs per say, but the rewards of putting in the right kind of time are just awesome. I will confess that Lily and I had many moments where neither of us liked the other one very much in her first 18 months. We both loved each other, but bickered a lot. I often asked myself why I thought she was a good idea during those first months. Now I can't imagine our lives without her or Peeves. But especially I have been transformed by the work I've done with her. It has made me a much more patient person. There is absolutely nothing better (outside of my human ties) than to see the look in her eye when we are training or in a trial and I can see that she is on for it. She glows and she makes me glow.


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## FozziesMom

*Things I learned*

1. Don't adopt a puppy at 7 months unless you know what you are getting into. Try to get them as early as possible (minimum 8 weeks of course). I trusted my breeder when she said the dog had been well socialized. In reality, the dog had not been socialized. He was afraid of cars, elevators, stairs, new people, bicycles, etc. The only thing he was not afraid of was most dogs. There was a lot of work I had to do early on; which is why I probably didn't notice the resource guarding right away. 

2. Understand that resource guarding is a natural dog behavior. It's not a defect, per se. Jean Donaldson's book, "Mine" is very helpful in explaining the nuances of this behavior and where it comes from. 

3. Look for physical causes. To this day I remain convinced that part of Fozzie's problems started because he was underweight (and thus hungry). The first --and always the most vicious-- incidents were always with guarded objects were various food items--Bully Sticks, Marrow Bones, a beef bone i let him chew on after dinner. Once Fozzie's weight came up to more normal (thanks to digestive enzymes), some of the guarding went away or at least seemed less intense. Poor thing was probably starving early on, and here was this person taking away his food. Oddly he has never guarded his food, but to be frank I haven't tested him (for what I am sure are obvious reasons, but as I had dogs before I knew you don't bother a dog while it's eating); I do work with him nearly daily in walking up and dropping food off. He will always back away from his food when I stand next to him; but I still wouldn't ever reach my hand in. You know what's *really* crazy? If he doesn't eat all his food, the cat will walk up to his bowl and start eating out of it. Fozzie will stand there and bark his fool head off at her, and she keeps on eating. He might lightly bounce/lunge at her, but she hisses and stands her ground. so he just stands there barking. This is hilarious to me. And yet it was something that kept me going in the dark days--knowing he wasn't going to attack the cat. 

4. Management isn't a dirty word. Keeping fozzie out of harm's way by leashing and crating early on, putting the garbage can away in a cabinet, not giving him things that "triggered" him; feeding the cat on a table, not letting him off leash in "unsafe" environments, etc. all helped create an atmosphere where he couldn't reinforce the bad behaviors.

5. Recognize that "stealing" objects is a form of attention seeking. to this day Fozzie still "steals" objects when he wants me to pay attention to him. I have gotten good at when he's doing this, and his only reward after giving up the object is a cuddle and a snuggle vs. food/treats. 

6. Don't take "stealing objects" so damn seriously and by extension, you MUST amp down your own emotions. The dog can tell when you are aroused/upset at him and can use that to provoke you, again to get attention. When I started "playing along" with non dangerous/valuable objects and made it into a fetch game, for example with socks and slippers; and giving him paper to shred (he doesn't eat it), or just taking a stick away and giving it back, by amping down MY emotions, it relaxed him. (huge help here was "The other end of the leash" by Pat McConnell" and just learning not to talk so damn much around him. Dogs don't communicate verbally, and when I started to talk less and use my eyes and hands more, our communication increased dramatically. I watched how Fozzie took objects from other dogs in play; then turned the tables on him. In his case, he would walk up to a dog, not too close and stare at them. That's what I started doing with him, wordlessly. I would start to walk towards him with an object, and when he froze, I'd stop. then if he went back to eating I'd move in again. Sure enough eventually he would back away, and then I started adding in the "leave it" command. Works like a charm with all but the most valuable objects now. 

7. Learn a "leave it/may I have that" protocol with a trainer and practice it daily. We are now at a phase where I only reward Fozzie intermittently with food, I never give him food every time he grabs the same object (lately his new favorite thing is pa's sunglasses). some times he gets a cookie for giving them up and some times I just rub his chest and tell him how lucky he is I won't beat him (just kidding!!!). 

8. Don't wait to seek help. If you are starting to fear your dog, feel anxious about his/her behavior, or just overwhelmed, this is one area you shouldn't tackle alone. 

9. Don't forget to PLAY! As I mentioned earlier, I would get so uptight about training him i stopped taking time to do silly stuff like just chase each other around the house (chase is only an indoor game. due to my desire to keep his recall strong, I don't play chase outside), tug of war, etc. I spend a few minutes every day just wrestling with him. 

10. The bite inhibition stuff is ongoing too. Fozz still uses his teeth just a bit too hard in play, so I keep up with the OW! (pause) response, and immediately he stops and backs away, and gets lighter. 

11. Mourn the loss of your "perfect" dog; but realize that was a fantasy anyway. 

12. Train everyone around you--spread the word, explain about the issue. I couldn't believe how many people wouldn't believe me when I said Fozzie was a biter. Then they wouldn't listen to me and try to take something, and act surprised when the inevitable happens. Expect to feel a bit alone in this but know that you are not. 

13. Talk to others, here at the Poodle Forum, or elsewhere, but having a safe place to express your sadness, fear, confusion, and so on is healing. IN my case, when we were at the point where we had to consider rehoming, being able to discuss it calmly with others who know dogs was very, very helpful. 

14. With mini poodles, at least, the personality doesn't appear to settle in until almost 3 years of age. That's incredibly lucky for me in terms of training him; but those 2 years felt endless. Settle in and understand it's a journey, not a destination. 

If I think of more I'll add them. 

Warmly,

FM


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## lily cd re

FM, thank you for a wonderful summary of the tools you learned in your journey. Patricia McConnell's Other End of the Leash is a great book. It also helped me to understand how much what we are feeling and thinking is transmitted to our dogs. Knowing I can't lie to the dogs has made me a more relaxed and peaceful person.

I am very happy you have reached a good place in your life journey with Fozzie.


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## fjm

Excellent summary, FM. Perhaps the one thing I would add, especially for those adopting younger pups, is that prevention is better (and certainly easier) than cure. Lots of games of swapping, leaving, learning self control, all in a happy, non confrontational atmosphere can help to ensure minimal problems down the line. It sounds as if Fozzie grew up in a crowd of dogs, and learned the rules of dog etiquette - which only became an issue when he applied them to humans.


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## FozziesMom

fjm said:


> the one thing I would add, especially for those adopting younger pups, is that prevention is better (and certainly easier) than cure. Lots of games of swapping, leaving, learning self control, all in a happy, non confrontational atmosphere can help to ensure minimal problems down the line. It sounds as if Fozzie grew up in a crowd of dogs, and learned the rules of dog etiquette - which only became an issue when he applied them to humans.


Amen. Amen. +1000 to that one. Since I haven't had a younger dog with the problem I neglected to mention but that is so true. 

jean donaldson's book mine, talks about to bombproof a puppy against this the right way. It's worth getting!


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## My babies

Congrats on your progress and success. I read all 9 pages of this thread today and started tearing. You r such a good mommy. Thank you for not giving up on your baby.


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## FozziesMom

*You have to hear this*

Poodle forum Friends,

Today, as we walked Fozzie around our neighborhood for the last time (we are moving to a new neighborhood this week), he disappeared behind a bush in our apartment courtyard and came out carrying a cooked chicken leg bone someone must have thrown back there. 

My first reaction was "oh no" and friends, I cannot describe the depth of dread and fear I feel when I see him holding an item like this. For I know it will end with the following: either he will chew up the bone, swallow it, and I will risk intestinal perforation and death, not to mention being on poop watch while moving; or a serious bite attack while I take the bone from him.

I said: "Fozzie, drop it!"

Fozzie lowered his head….and walked slowly towards me, bone in mouth. I said quietly, that's such a good boy, share that with Mommy. And he came up on his hind legs and I put my hand on the bone ever so gently. He started to tug on it. But didn't growl or bite. I looked into his eyes gently and said, "Fozzie, leave it". And slowly, he let go of the bone. 

I held up the bone to Pa who was somewhat confused by what was going on since he couldn't see it….and friends, I don't mind telling you that, I did what is called "losing my ****." I burst into great heaving sobs of joy, knelt down and loved that dog to death. When we went upstairs I gave him a huge breakfast and much more love and food. 

When I left today for work the dog was curled up in our bed, like pudding in a cloud of white while FozziesPa continues making preparations for the move. 

The sense of joy, relief, happiness, amazement, gratitude and LOVE for this dog cannot be described. I know it may not happen again and he is not CURED; but holy cow, this is an unbelievable progression for this dog. 

So we have come full circle. This feels like a good place to end this thread. I'll be back if there's more news…but gosh I don't know how to top this. 

FozziesMom
(totally high on happy adrenaline this morning)


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## fjm

I am tearing up reading your last post - that is WONDERFUL!  You have worked so hard, and so patiently with him, and it shows just how completely he knows he can trust you now.


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## schnauzerpoodle

I can feel the "phew" and the joy here 

Fozzie, I'll steal you some treats from Nickel's cookie jar


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## tokipoke

I don't know why I teared up too reading the most recent post. I read through this whole thread and towards the end realized it was an older thread. Wow, just goes to show you how long you've been working on this. Congratulations!! What a great validation for all the effort you put into it, and we also cannot forget to give credit to Fozzie.

I commiserated with you through the thread about the situation, and the frustration with other people when they don't follow through with training. You are right in the fact that resource guarding is a natural behavior for dogs, but they are living in unnatural environments inside homes with people. I adopted Louis, a Havanese at 2 years old, and I was concerned when he would growl when he had a really good toy. Recently I gave him a huge new bone and when I came near him, he growled. When your own dog growls at you, you feel like a horrible person. I knew not to take it personally. But the unknown of "will he bite me?" was a difficult thought to think. I grabbed a large, long bone and used it to get closer to his mouth. He growled louder and louder as I approached closer, and even clamped down on the bone harder. But I knew he wouldn't bite when he tried to run away with the bone, as opposed to confronting me. This probably wasn't the best way to do it, but I got really close to where I was practically kneeling on the bone. He "snapped out of it" and backed off, looked at me and wagged his tail. I took the bone away. After 10 minutes, I placed the bone on the floor but made him wait for it. I released him to get the bone and he chewed some more. I kept repeating the exercises - giving and taking, but always making sure he moved away from the bone first. I put him in his crate for a few minutes, but had forgotten to put the bone away. When I let him out of the crate, he ran straight to the bone as I walked to the back door to let the dogs out to potty. He completely ignored me and started chewing, but as I walked up to him, he stood up and immediately dropped the bone, and ran outside. Of course his case is not as serious as yours, but it just shows how handling even the smallest case of resource guarding in the wrong way can spell disaster. I believe if someone other than me approached him to snatch it away, he would have bit them. He almost bit my sister when she tried to take a toy away from him so I know it's in him!

Again, congratulations to you and Fozzie! And Fozzie's dad!


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## tokipoke

I wanted to mention that Louis has this thing about clamping down on a toy and NOT letting go, no matter how hard you pull. I believe pulling harder only makes him want to keep it more. So I've used redirection with treats successfully. His favorite toy is a feather cat toy, if left to Louis's whims, would be totally destroyed. I make him chase after the toy, and when he grabs it with his mouth, I bend down and throw a treat away from him, he lets go of the toy and goes for the treat. He's so used to this movement now, that sometimes he will bite the toy, then let go immediately to sniff around for the treat. Also, when he sees me do a bending motion towards him, he lets go of the toy. We CAN make the dogs work for us!


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