# Where do I draw the line?



## toypoodlelove (May 4, 2021)

Hi,

I am a new member and I have read many informative posts, including the poodle breeder list Rose n Poos has so kindly created.

I have been looking for a toy poodle for many months and have done a lot of readings on it. I've contacted The Poodle Club of America and got on couple recommended breeder lists. I know the wait will be long for a puppy. I understand that I should look for a breeder that does genetic/health test on the parents to be safe.

What are your views on optigen clear by parentage? One breeder said the puppy's grandparents are clear so that makes her parents clear and that makes the puppy clear. I thought from my reading that a dog can only be clear by parentage only through one generation not 2. The breeder said even though if a dog's parents is clear on the OFA website, it does not mean that there was not any genetic issues many generations before. If that was true, wouldn't we have to back track may generations?

Some breeders are very nice and some are not very open in talking about their breeding programs.

I am at a lost on what to believe and how critical I should be about the genetic/health test? I feel like I am going no where from my search. 

I would really appreciate your advice.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Your feelings are very understandable and the very short answer is "Your choice depends on what's important to you and what risks you're willing to take on".




toypoodlelove said:


> Some breeders are very nice and some are not very open in talking about their breeding programs.


For this, I assume you're asking just typical questions and I personally would stick with the ones that are nice and wiling to answer questions (within reason ). If you select a breeder, you're potentially selecting a very long relationship with them, since they will be available to you for questions thru your pups life and very likely hope to get updates on your pups life. They'll want to know if there's a health issue, for themselves, their other families, and their future breedings.


A bit of history first. Until the dog genome was sequenced, 2005 I think, no DNA testing was created let alone available. Up til that point, all breeders really had to go on was the history they could see, whatever physical (phenotype) testing was being done, and information voluntarily placed in pedigree databases, online or written. Common sense and observation took them as far as it could. Some breeders still rely on that, with less emphasis on the testing.

That's kind of like just guessing what that lump is, rather than getting it checked out. "I'll just wait, there's no history in my family of...".



toypoodlelove said:


> One breeder said the puppy's grandparents are clear so that makes her parents clear and that makes the puppy clear.


OFA's description of Cleared By Parentage

*CLEAR BY PARENTAGE POLICY*
What does “clear by parentage” mean?
OFA records results of approximately 120 DNA tests, all of which are currently “direct mutation” tests, meaning that the test results are 100 percent accurate and not subject to interpretation.

_For direct mutation tests, OFA will clear by parentage for one generation._

That means that if both parents have been DNA tested clear for a disease, OFA will declare offspring clear by virtue of the fact that the parents tested clear. However, there are a few requirements to clear by parentage.

1.) As mentioned, both sire and dam must have tested clear, and those test results must be on record with OFA.
2.) The sire, dam and the offspring to be cleared must all have been DNA identity profiled, and DNA profiles must be on record at OFA.

Once those requirements are met, the owner of the offspring to be cleared will fill out the application for DNA Based Genetic Disease (available on the OFA website), writing “clear by parentage” in the blank line at the top of the form, and submit the form with the $15 OFA processing fee. That’s it—your dog is now cleared by parentage for that disease.
The resulting certification will have a suffix of CBP, indicating that the dog itself was not tested and that the clearance is based on the sire and dam’s test results.

_OFA will only clear by parentage for one generation, due to the possibility of new mutations or as yet undiscovered gene mutations._

Bear in mind that DNA-based screening is an evolving science, and OFA policy is subject to change as technology and science advance.

-----------

Optigen does only DNA testing and DNA testing is very important but it's only half the health picture. The other half is the phenotype testing. That is physical examination of the dog by a vet using specific parameters, not just a "Yes, that dog looks healthy" exam, but xrays for hips, assessments for patellas, heart, lab tests for certain conditions, basically the same as if this were a human getting a complete physical from their various doctors, all depending on breed and variety.

The breed clubs, PCA for poodles, decides what testing is the minimum to be done and OFA collaborates with them.

The PCA recommends this testing for a toy poodle as a minimum.
The PRA test is DNA/genetic.
The eye exam is to be done (yearly) by a board certified ophthalmologist.
The patellar exam is done after the pup has likely reached physical maturity (1 year).

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test*
DNA based test from an approved laboratory ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year

Back to making decisions about how much testing is enough.

I use this analogy. My house used to have a wood shingle roof. Lightning strikes, fire jumping from a neighbors roof, a bottle rocket landing on it and catching fire, all those things were very real risks, not common, but real.

When it was time to replace the roof, we we chose a composition material which was highly rated on the fire resistant scale. My insurance company thanked us by giving a discount on our home insurance, so they also considered this a reduction of a real risk.

This doesn't mean my house can't still catch on fire, but it's not likely to be from some of the most common reasons.

Other items aren't automatically insured so I either need to pay additionally for that coverage, or go without and hope I have the savings to replace or repair any damage, and that, worst of all, they won't be lost forever because I can't afford any of that.

Health testing is insurance against some specific heartbreaks but not all. Health insurance on your pup is another part of the equation. It can't stop things from happening but can make for much better outcomes. If you have the wherewithal to go without insurance, that's lucky. Not all of us do, and many of us have made sacrifices and hard decisions.

It comes down to what risks are you willing to accept, for yourself, your family and your pup.

It's a story posted already on PF but my boys are not from a breeder I could ever recommend. Because I knew what I was getting into and have the funds to cover serious issues, I caved to my husband's insistence and went on what I think of as a rescue mission.

I love my boys, we're lucky so far, but I don't have the assurance of their parents having had the recommended testing for health issues, I don't have the backing of a breeder who will stand by them and me thru their lives. I'm not comfortable with risks that could have been eliminated.

Some say "ignorance is bliss". I fall into the "to be forewarned is to be forearmed" camp and pass on what I know, with hope that it's helpful.

Only you can decide what you're comfortable with.


----------

