# Pedigree Help/Breeder Search



## Footprints&pawmarks (Mar 8, 2021)

I'm no expert. What I noticed immediately is that none of the dogs have any titles, either in front of their names (conformation, like Ch); or behind their names (obedience and performance, such as CD). 

Next, I noticed that at the Great-grandparents level, two of the dogs are on both sides. That's pretty close breeding to my untrained eye.

Who is better at this than I am (practically everybody!) Can you join the conversation?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

There's no way to actually confirm their quality as breeders but I will say that not a single name is familiar and as F&p notes, no titles in the lot.

I'm going to add my Tips list to give you some things to look for and avoid.

You're going to find that while there may be a large number of breeders, the number of quality, conscientious breeders will be much smaller.

*We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.* What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the quality, conscientious breeders are _always_ breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions, but are flawless to us .

*It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from*. For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US or Canada. A bottom line difference is between those who're breeding primarily for profit and those who're breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breedings are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

*About reviews,* a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

*Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance*. Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet". Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks.


*Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder.* The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum.*
There are also poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions. Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.
CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

*STANDARD POODLES*
In order to obtain a Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) number, the Standard Poodle must have completed testing and be registered with the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) in the following areas:


Hip Dysplasia evaluation from an approved agency
Eye clearance by the Companion Animal Eye Registry (CAER)
Health Elective (One of the following tests):


OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist
Congenital Cardiac Exam
Advanced Cardiac Exam
The above tests are considered the minimum testing required for Standard Poodles that will be used for breeding. Please note that designation with a CHIC number does not show that the dog actually passed the testing, only that the tests were administered.

To check the testing that has been done on a dog, you will need either the dog’s OFA number, the CHIC number, the registration number, or the registered name of the dog. To check the dog’s testing status, go to: Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO.

Many breeders will perform additional testing on their breeding stock. All testing is valuable and gives information regarding the breeder’s interest in the future of his/her breeding program. Using the tools that are currently available will allow the breeder to successfully use the entire gene pool in combinations that provide for a healthy future for the breed.

Also see Code of Ethics - The Poodle Club of America
and
Standard Testing - Versatility In Poodles, Inc. : Versatility In Poodles, Inc. (vipoodle.org)


*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if *the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed. *If they rule out coverage for conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

*Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times* and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021-2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

*When you start making contacts, *let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

*Color preferences are understandable but* keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. Most poodle colors fade.

*Gender preferences* will also limit your options.

*Temperament and personality* are lifelong traits.

*Be prepared to spend *in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

*Be prepared to travel *outside your preferred area.

*As a very general rule, websites to be leery of* are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience". Marketing terms such as teacup, royal, or giant aren't used by conscientious breeders who know poodles. Different pricing for different sizes is also a marketing strategy.

*Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights (breeding rights which allow pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission.* A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

*One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.* That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

*An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. *An online search for "Poodle Club of *___* (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America

*As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.*

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is _well bred._


*Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time *

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


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## Looniesense (Jul 10, 2021)

What sticks out to me is it looks like the sires of both of your pups parents were siblings. Maybe not from the same litter but their lineage is identical. I also don’t recognize most of the kennel names with the exception of Kit Sue which is known to give breeding rights to backyard breeders per posts I read on here. You might try doing a search here for Kit Sue.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

What I have found with my limited education on breeding is that most reputable breeders will not doodle, so it is more unlikely to find a reputable breeder in your dogs lineage. Since you no longer want to doodle and want a Standard poodle, I would look to the poodle breed club in my area and start there with my search for a breeder.


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

I recognize one name on the very end: Leke Flamin Kokopelli Dancer. That particular dog doesn't show up in Ethel's pedigree but another one from that kennel does. I agree with the assertion that reputable breeders, especially if they are working toward a true, dark red, aren't going to allow breeding and definitely not doodle breeding.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Not an expert here either but agree that the lack of titles is concerning. Here is Gracie’s pedigree for comparison. Not all dogs have titles but many do and the breeder voluntarily mentioned why some dogs aren’t titled that she uses in her program. Gracie is a mini, so won’t help with kennel names, but gives you an idea of what a decent pedigree looks like.

Also agree to look at PCA breeder referral








 PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America


On this page...Breeder Referral ContactsPCA National Breeder Members Lists Breeder Referral Contacts Breeder referral West of the Mississippi: Mary OlundPhone: (415) 457-4648Send email to: [email protected] calls from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time Breeder referral...




poodleclubofamerica.org




good luck. Come back with questions, you’ll probably have many if you’re doing it right!

ETA pic of Gracie for context. She has a mismark, the white blaze which Happens now and then.


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## cavalierkiddo (11 mo ago)

Thanks everyone! This is very helpful (including knowing that titles would be listed in a dog’s pedigree).


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## ChallengeAccepted (11 mo ago)

Shammy has Merles and Kit Sue had Merles. 
I would run


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