# Im pulling my boy out of his school



## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Hey all,
Have you ever had to leave a training class? I have been going to a group puppy class for about 2 months now and I train a bunch at home. Im a positive trainer. Not only do I like how positive dogs work but its teaching me intense amounts of patience and self control in all manner of life. I have nothing at all against balanced trainers but it’s not for me. Accordingly, Tek’s class began as positive only, high energy, and happy - BUT then the first day of the next level class got dark quick. Puppies(!) being jerked off the ground on prong collars, out of control dogs with no reinforcement on what to do dragging their owners around, no breaks, no play, no fun, only yelling commands and punishment when it’s not followed; I tried to grin and bear it and do my own thing but increasingly the trainer started correcting me for treating and playing with Tekno, or not giving him a swift jerk when he loses focus. I really like the trainer, he’s funny, he seems to really care about our success, but that training style just isnt necessary for us - Tek loves performing and earning praise. So yeah, we’re going to focus on our Fenzi classes and enter Novice Obedience training in May with a positive focused group. I feel sad about not seeing Tek’s friends but yeah I don’t believe in the methods and I can’t risk Tek shutting down or becoming averse to training.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Phaz23 said:


> Hey all,
> Have you ever had to leave a training class? I have been going to a group puppy class for about 2 months now and I train a bunch at home. Im a positive trainer. Not only do I like how positive dogs work but its teaching me intense amounts of patience and self control in all manner of life. I have nothing at all against balanced trainers but it’s not for me. Accordingly, Tek’s class began as positive only, high energy, and happy - BUT then the first day of the next level class got dark quick. Puppies(!) being jerked off the ground on prong collars, out of control dogs with no reinforcement on what to do dragging their owners around, no breaks, no play, no fun, only yelling commands and punishment when it’s not followed; I tried to grin and bear it and do my own thing but increasingly the trainer started correcting me for treating and playing with Tekno, or not giving him a swift jerk when he loses focus. I really like the trainer, he’s funny, he seems to really care about our success, but that training style just isnt necessary for us - Tek loves performing and earning praise. So yeah, we’re going to focus on our Fenzi classes and enter Novice Obedience training in May with a positive focused group. I feel sad about not seeing Tek’s friends but yeah I don’t believe in the methods and I can’t risk Tek shutting down or becoming averse to training.


Maybe you're not the only one thinking this. Have you talked with others after class about it? Did you confront the trainer to ask why the different style? I can't really comment on experience because I haven't been in any classes yet but for me, if it were heading in the wrong direction, I would have to pass as well.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Doesn't sound like a great class to me. Balanced training is mostly positive reinforcement, especially with puppies. Sounds like it's just not a good class and I wouldn't form any beliefs on balanced training from it. I'd look for classes put on by obedience clubs or by trainers with many titles in performance sports. I'm extremely wary of any other dog trainers.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

It actually is an obedience club but the style just isn’t for me. I haven’t talked to others about it because it’s their choice how they want to train, and I don’t want to over step, make a scene, or develop bad blood with an obedience club that will probably be hosting the events I go to in the future.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

I also already have a class lined up in May for a Novice Obedience class with another club that has all competitive trainers with titled dogs, and Im in Fenzi courses.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Phaz23 said:


> I also already have a class lined up in May for a Novice Obedience class with another club that has all competitive trainers with titled dogs, and Im in Fenzi courses.


That sounds good. Do what works for you and your dog. Some trainers are used to harder tempered dogs and don't work well with softer tempered ones. Best to find a trainer that matches the style of learning your dog needs. I've pulled a dog from classes before. Best to do when they aren't benefitting from it at all and the trainer isn't seeing their needs.

You may find benefit to keeping an open mind to teaching the value of a correction though. A dog understanding a firm Ah-ah! can be extremely valuable.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I think you are making the right choice. I assume your goals include at least some off leash work in the future - trick training, agility, etc. Yanking on the leash to regain your dog's attention doesn't work when your dog isn't wearing a leash. I think you are smart to be working on different ways to keep Tekno's attention. If your trainer is interfering with this foundation then it's time to lose that trainer.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> That sounds good. Do what works for you and your dog. Some trainers are used to harder tempered dogs and don't work well with softer tempered ones. Best to find a trainer that matches the style of learning your dog needs. I've pulled a dog from classes before. Best to do when they aren't benefitting from it at all and the trainer isn't seeing their needs.
> 
> You may find benefit to keeping an open mind to teaching the value of a correction though. A dog understanding a firm Ah-ah! can be extremely valuable.


Oh I do use non- reward markers like Ah-Ah or “woops!” and give a “yes” but no food or toys when there’s an “oops” so I believe I do use correction or maybe a better phrase would be rules to the game 😊. Tekno can break the rules and he won’t be punished but following them is highly rewarding and invites his engagement.

I think too the difference between balanced and positive trainers isn’t super clear cut and is more of a spectrum. I only use the terms when someone defines themselves as one or the other. For myself what I mean is that I don’t use punishment and the training motivation is reward based, choice-focused, conditioning heavy, and focused on what behavior I want to teach, opposed to extinguishing undesirable behaviors. I consider myself a positive reinforcement trainer, its not in opposition to balanced, it just what I like to use. Just like liking ice cream doesn’t mean Im a yogurt hater lol


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

cowpony said:


> I think you are making the right choice. I assume your goals include at least some off leash work in the future - trick training, agility, etc. Yanking on the leash to regain your dog's attention doesn't work when your dog isn't wearing a leash. I think you are smart to be working on different ways to keep Tekno's attention. If your trainer is interfering with this foundation then it's time to lose that trainer.


Yes, I almost always work Tekno off of a leash indoors unless we’re specifically learning a leash skill or playing a game like restricted recalls. If he walks away, I wasn’t building enough drive towards myself or the training session was too long and I have to do better to keep him engaged. Really hard to do this sort of training in a class like the one described.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

You are so wise .


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Streetcar said:


> You are so wise .


Thank you ☺ ☺


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Very good decision. Wish all owners were so savvy. I imagine a lot of people get caught up in the peer pressure of classes like that. They just go along with the group, even if their gut’s telling them otherwise. Or they feel they have no choice but to defer to the “expert” because they lack knowledge or experience.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Good for you for leaving. Those techniques are straight from the 1980s and are deservedly in our past.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Very good decision. My first Papillon and I walked away from a similar class once. The particular session that finished us was a sit stay, with the owners walking to the far side of the hall. Flissy and I moved further and further away up the hall, putting more and more distance between us and the owners who were scolding and yanking their dogs and the increasingly scared and unhappy dogs, until I looked across at Flissy who was sitting politely but with lowered ears and silently asked her "Are you enjoying this? No? Neither am I" and we quietly slipped away and never went back.

That was around 15 years ago - there are much better options now, and I have learned to be extremely choosey. Well done for following your instincts and advocating for Tekno.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I noped out of a class which was ostensibly positive reinforcement based but the trainer wanted me to drag my dog by her leash into a stay if she broke a stay. I didn't get go to her class, just the assessment to place us, and, with the advice of poodle forum after I posted going 'is this normal?' I didn't sign up for further classes.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

Good job advocating for your dog, who doesn't have a voice. I belong to an AKC training club where instruction varies based on the trainer, but we modified the constitution a few years back to outlaw those type of physical corrections. Still, I know there are trainers in the club who practice them.

Now, no matter the class, I make the decisions of if/how to correct my dog. I'll consider the instructor's opinion (and sometimes other class members), but I have the experience of knowing my dog's history and how he reacts to different training methods. Some of the instructors are open, a "take what you like" attitude, so leaving the class entirely isn't necessary.

It took a while before I realized that I could decide to not accept an instructor's advice. My poor first dog, Scout . . . we quit on obedience classes when an instructor said that I shouldn't use treats any more because my dog should want to complete the exercises without them. Much like fjm, one day I realized that neither of us was having fun in class and we never went back. Scout would have made a great rally dog with different training methods.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Run away. This is not a good experience for the dogs or humans. You are smart to realize this trainer isn’t right for you.

When I got Babykins she was a failed conformation dog, almost a year old with no obedience skills whatsoever. My first obedience class claimed to be positive but had things like step on the leash to keep your dogs head on the mat in a down position. How cruel. Most people probably quit taking obedience classes with their dog after that experience. But I fell in love with training, moved on and found great trainers, discovered competition dog sports and kept going. Like Scooterscout, the trainers are volunteers where I train in clubs and take turns teaching so some are better than others but none are cruel and I’ve learned something from all of them. I do what is best for my dog.

In my AKC club there are a few old time trainers using cruel outdated methods but they never teach and they are not allowed to use them in the buildings. They are among the top competitors which is why they continue with these methods. They keep to themselves, a little clique. Most trainers have moved on.


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Ah yes - you are wise in listening to your dog. Asta and I quit class when the instructor told us to put him on a choke collar. No way. Especially since we do not have many trainers and classes out my way.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

I was in a somewhat similar situation once. I didn't leave the class mid-session, but I've certainly never taken another class from that trainer again, nor do I recommend her classes to anyone. Leo is nine now, so this was probably seven or eight years ago, but I took a competition prep AKC Novice Obedience class from a local trainer who was very old school. Lots of leash pops and pushing dogs into position when working on sits and downs, type of stuff. I was the only person who came to class with my pockets full of treats. The main thing that made me decide that this would be the one and only class I'd take from her was when she did such a harsh leash correction that she nearly yanked the Lab that was her demo dog off his feet, then rolled and pinned him down while yelling at him. His "crime"? He got up from a down stay.


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## Silverbelle (Mar 24, 2020)

I feel for you. Twice now I have had to walk out of the class and not return due to similar behavior. As Skylar said, I would 'run away'.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I certainly see zero need for harsh corrections and pinch collars with very young dogs and puppies. Harsh verbal and physical corrections really shouldn't be needed, however I do use pinch collars with older dogs after other interventions have failed or once in a while where harm is going to come to someone (person or dog) if a "quick fix" is really needed. I also use pinch collars for my own dogs mostly as a reminder to keep manners for loose leashes if walking in a very busy area and sometimes to refresh heeling in obedience. Most of what I do with both Lily and Javelin these days is off leash training but the pinch collars just remind them we are working, not playing. Javelin actually gets very excited when I put his pinch collar on since it tells him we are going to school to practice fun things.

It can be hard to find a good match with trainers. Some are very old school and not very willing to consider new ideas. One thing that may help is to find classes given by people who are CPDT-KA trainers or people who are members of APDT. Both organizations want members to adhere to least intrusive/minimally aversive methods. If a CPDT-KA gets reported for using needlessly harsh methods there is the potential of losing their certification. Note I said needlessly harsh not any aversive technique. I have a client with a dog who weighs more than half what she does and is a power puller. She has a prosthetic hip and worries about getting pulled of her feet. He is a nice dog but a COVID pup who had lots of love but little good guidance in his first year with her. She already had an e collar and didn't seem to be effective in using it, so the pinch collar I put on him was actually a step back and she is no longer afraid of getting hurt while walking him since he has learned to walk nicely with it. Later this spring we will work on fading the pinch collar away (and get him a recall and get him to get in her car).


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Yes what you guys are describing is what I was seeing.
-Dogs (all puppies under 8 months) being yanked by prongs as a correction

-dogs being forced into positions
-owners nervous about doing what the trainers says and being pushed into it

-lunging, excited, out of control puppies being dragged and pulled around because their foundation work is not there

-Long sit stays with corrections delivered for moving even when the dog corrects itself by sitting again


lily cd re said:


> I certainly see zero need for harsh corrections and pinch collars with very young dogs and puppies. Harsh verbal and physical corrections really shouldn't be needed, however I do use pinch collars with older dogs after other interventions have failed or once in a while where harm is going to come to someone (person or dog) if a "quick fix" is really needed. I also use pinch collars for my own dogs mostly as a reminder to keep manners for loose leashes if walking in a very busy area and sometimes to refresh heeling in obedience. Most of what I do with both Lily and Javelin these days is off leash training but the pinch collars just remind them we are working, not playing. Javelin actually gets very excited when I put his pinch collar on since it tells him we are going to school to practice fun things.
> 
> It can be hard to find a good match with trainers. Some are very old school and not very willing to consider new ideas. One thing that may help is to find classes given by people who are CPDT-KA trainers or people who are members of APDT. Both organizations want members to adhere to least intrusive/minimally aversive methods. If a CPDT-KA gets reported for using needlessly harsh methods there is the potential of losing their certification. Note I said needlessly harsh not any aversive technique. I have a client with a dog who weighs more than half what she does and is a power puller. She has a prosthetic hip and worries about getting pulled of her feet. He is a nice dog but a COVID pup who had lots of love but little good guidance in his first year with her. She already had an e collar and didn't seem to be effective in using it, so the pinch collar I put on him was actually a step back and she is no longer afraid of getting hurt while walking him since he has learned to walk nicely with it. Later this spring we will work on fading the pinch collar away (and get him a recall and get him to get in her car).


This is a CCPDT-KA trainer at a competitive obedience club, I promise you I did my research and this isn’t my fault, the class just isn’t for us and neither are prongs, e-collars, or anything else that inflicts pain (no matter how minor). If it works for someone else and the dog is happy, that’s awesome, but not something Im interested in pursuing ever. And this isn’t my first rodeo- Im a former groomer and vet assistant, grew up with pet rottweilers and pit bulls, and have worked hands on with hundreds (and maybe even thousands at this point) of dogs with R+ methods.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Phaz23 said:


> Yes what you guys are describing is what I was seeing.
> -Dogs (all puppies under 8 months) being yanked by prongs as a correction
> -dogs being forced into positions
> -owners nervous about doing what the trainers says and being pushed into it
> ...


Holy heck! I am pretty horrified to see that this is a CPDT-KA trainer. I certainly lay no blame for the situation at your feet. The certification should have been an assurance to you that the instructor was going to start with entirely R+ teaching methods who would introduce supportive methods for getting a behavior you want that the most gentle and positive tools wouldn't elicit.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Phaz23 said:


> Yes what you guys are describing is what I was seeing.
> -Dogs (all puppies under 8 months) being yanked by prongs as a correction
> -dogs being forced into positions
> -owners nervous about doing what the trainers says and being pushed into it
> ...


That’s totally unacceptable. Don’t go back, leave knowing it’s the right thing.

BTW That first trainer I went to has written author authoritative books and traveled to hold seminars for many years and has been teaching for decades. What I found out later is she can no longer show dogs in AKC Obedience because her unhinged dogs have attacked and bitten other dogs in the stays and downs in Novice and Open. Her dogs attacked two dogs in my class on the last day. I know what you mean about dragging and pulling a dog.....it will kill the enthusiasm and joy Tekno has for learning and following your body language. Tekno is such a wonderful puppy, you are a wonderful trainer....you both don’t need this cruelty.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> Holy heck! I am pretty horrified to see that this is a CPDT-KA trainer. I certainly lay no blame for the situation at your feet. The certification should have been an assurance to you that the instructor was going to start with entirely R+ teaching methods who would introduce supportive methods for getting a behavior you want that the most gentle and positive tools wouldn't elicit.


Yes, I feel like he began his first puppy class with positive and then the next one he didn’t allow treats and it was correction focused. I think maybe he really thought 5 weeks was enough foundation to introduce aversive correction when in my mind, I would think it would be more like 2-3 years if that’s the route I wanted to take.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Skylar said:


> That’s totally unacceptable. Don’t go back, leave knowing it’s the right thing.
> 
> BTW That first trainer I went to has written author authoritative books and traveled to hold seminars for many years and has been teaching for decades. What I found out later is she can no longer show dogs in AKC Obedience because her unhinged dogs have attacked and bitten other dogs in the stays and downs in Novice and Open. Her dogs attacked two dogs in my class on the last day. I know what you mean about dragging and pulling a dog.....it will kill the enthusiasm and joy Tekno has for learning and following your body language. Tekno is such a wonderful puppy, you are a wonderful trainer....you both don’t need this cruelty.


Thank you 😊 and holy wow, that’s so scary!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Phaz23, I am so thrilled to see you here! I too have left not only classes, but trainers because of their aversive methods that they were trying to pan off as modern positive training techniques. When I see someone trying to say they are a 'balanced trainer' I immediately become super alert to how they treat their dog. Are they using prong collars? And trying to say how they use them so gently that they are actually positive? ???? Etc. I do not need to explain to you, or give you other similar examples. I can tell you understand. Your wonderful dog is so lucky to have you!


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## cate&clair (Aug 7, 2017)

Phaz23 said:


> Hey all,
> Have you ever had to leave a training class? I have been going to a group puppy class for about 2 months now and I train a bunch at home. Im a positive trainer. Not only do I like how positive dogs work but its teaching me intense amounts of patience and self control in all manner of life. I have nothing at all against balanced trainers but it’s not for me. Accordingly, Tek’s class began as positive only, high energy, and happy - BUT then the first day of the next level class got dark quick. Puppies(!) being jerked off the ground on prong collars, out of control dogs with no reinforcement on what to do dragging their owners around, no breaks, no play, no fun, only yelling commands and punishment when it’s not followed; I tried to grin and bear it and do my own thing but increasingly the trainer started correcting me for treating and playing with Tekno, or not giving him a swift jerk when he loses focus. I really like the trainer, he’s funny, he seems to really care about our success, but that training style just isnt necessary for us - Tek loves performing and earning praise. So yeah, we’re going to focus on our Fenzi classes and enter Novice Obedience training in May with a positive focused group. I feel sad about not seeing Tek’s friends but yeah I don’t believe in the methods and I can’t risk Tek shutting down or becoming averse to training.



In answer to your original question: Yes, several times. For various reasons related to the trainer, methods, uncontrolled dogs in the class...etc, etc. Do what you need to do for the health and safety of your dog. Always, without apology. 
I've left classes because the trainer did a lot of yelling, at me or at other people.. Yelling is not a training method. Period. 
I've trained my poodle and two previous dogs in agility and obedience. I've worked at least a dozen different trainers over the years. I've also worked with more than one trainer simultaneously, which can be a good thing, but not necessarily.
The best class is the one YOU love to go to because it's fun. Then it just follows your dog will have fun too. FUN is always the point, especially with a young dog, and probably even more with a poodle.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

kontiki said:


> Phaz23, I am so thrilled to see you here! I too have left not only classes, but trainers because of their aversive methods that they were trying to pan off as modern positive training techniques. When I see someone trying to say they are a 'balanced trainer' I immediately become super alert to how they treat their dog. Are they using prong collars? And trying to say how they use them so gently that they are actually positive? ???? Etc. I do not need to explain to you, or give you other similar examples. I can tell you understand. Your wonderful dog is so lucky to have you!


Yes, that’s why I have to avoid them. I know there are good balanced trainers out there but due to the popularity of the word among inexperienced, forceful, and even abusive trainers (put the hashtag #balancedTrainer on instagram and prepare for the horror you will see) too often it means “fast” results for pet parents that don’t want to put too much time into training, don’t mind if their dog shuts down or stops making choices, and/or just don’t know any better. If R+ training takes me 6x longer then fine and my dog thinking training is an awesome game, than coool, what’s the rush ?


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## Rupert's Poodle (Feb 27, 2021)

I haven't left a class but then I haven't ever signed up for one. I have known people who have walked out. It seems like a lot of classes are problematic. Sometimes the dogs seem really misplaced (if that's the word I want), tiny poms and poodles in the same class with pitbulls straining to get off the leash and rip some dog up. I knew one trainer who beat a dog in front of its owner. He was ashamed that he let her do it. 
I'm know there are really wonderful, talented skilled trainers out there, but there are also a lot of twits.


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