# Double Helix Water



## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

In view, the best way to restore health in a dog is to ensure appropriate quantities of excellent quality food, provide opportunities for mental and physical exercise, and make use of skilled and knowledgeable veterinarians for preventative and acute care. I spend my money on these things, which are good value for money. Enriching charlatans by spending money on treatments with unproven and dubious benefits doesn't make sense to me.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Snake oil, methinks - Structured Water Pseudoscience and Quackery


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

There are remarkable stories about this out there and there is a book. "Show me......"


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I did a brief Internet search and it screams con job to me. Je-UK has the right approach in my opinion. It is like all the miracle weight loss cures when sadly it comes down to eating right and exercising. The magical short cuts just turn out to be a disappointment. I like scientific studies not just stories before I plunk down my hard earned cash.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

The water sounds interesting, but the name sounds misleading as it sounds like the water creates a helix DNA-type structure where really (according to my readings) it is more a lattice structure mimicking the structure of ice, but you have the same lattice at room temperature. I'm not sure how this is supposed to help with health because once you ingest the water, the elements are broken down for the body.... does the lattice provide easier accessibility to the hydrogen and oxygen molecules? Wouldn't the body require MORE energy to break down the lattice structure? I'm still not sure where the health benefits come from and this isn't explained very well. Whatever the health benefits may be, I'd be more interested in seeing how this type of water interacts or influences chemicals systems such as pyrolysis oil. Water is a by-product of converting woody materials into crude oil, and it would be curious to see how the helix water binds or repels certain analytes in the oil, or influence oil suspension.... I am bringing this up because, although this water may seem like a big con, perhaps it does serve some scientific purpose elsewhere.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

*Double helix water*

You sound as if you are familar with the water...either from the website, the book, or personal knowledge. The claims for it and story behind its development are certainly intriguing and bear watching, while the jury is out.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

*double helix water*

My vet is trying it, my poodle is using it, and that's how I've heard of it.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Does your poodle suffer from ill health? What ailment are you trying to treat?


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

My toy poodle is 13 years old and has the usual age-related problems. She has more energy and her brown teeth have cleared.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I am glad to hear your poodle is not ill and is doing well. Do you attribute her improvement to the water? How long has she been on it?


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Oreo has been on it for about 2 months. Her teeth were very discolored and she is not a canidate for cleaning. I noticed they whitened before her monthly check-up. Her energy improved quickly and she continues to bounce around offering to play with one of the spoos.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

It was developed for people and holistic vets are beginning to use it.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

We all want the best for our dogs, and I can see the temptation to want to believe in quick cures. But it's dangerous to see cause and effect where it may not exist.

Correlation doesn't equal causation, or to put it more simply (and because it makes me laugh :smile ... the rooster doesn't make the sun come up.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

There is a possibility that the genetically modified food and chemical additive products sold by the food and drug companies have seriously compromised our health systems. Discovering and developing products for and returning to holistic methods continues to be an important source of protection for supporting health.


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

tokipoke said:


> The water sounds interesting, but the name sounds misleading as it sounds like the water creates a helix DNA-type structure where really (according to my readings) it is more a lattice structure mimicking the structure of ice, but you have the same lattice at room temperature. I'm not sure how this is supposed to help with health because once you ingest the water, the elements are broken down for the body.... does the lattice provide easier accessibility to the hydrogen and oxygen molecules? Wouldn't the body require MORE energy to break down the lattice structure? I'm still not sure where the health benefits come from and this isn't explained very well. Whatever the health benefits may be, I'd be more interested in seeing how this type of water interacts or influences chemicals systems such as pyrolysis oil. Water is a by-product of converting woody materials into crude oil, and it would be curious to see how the helix water binds or repels certain analytes in the oil, or influence oil suspension.... I am bringing this up because, although this water may seem like a big con, perhaps it does serve some scientific purpose elsewhere.


Since I remember seeing somewhere that you are or were a chemist, you should know. My hat is off to you for putting this into the proper prospective for us. Thank you.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I agree that genetically modified food and chemical additives almost certainly has a negative impact on health. Water has not been modified - you are buying water that is. (Clarification - if your water has been treated you can use a simple filter to take out things like chlorine - I have a well so it is not an issue for me.) I would put my $ into high quality raw food. I am not a chemist so I cannot refute the claims made by the double helix water people but I don't see the studies and it does not meet my common sense test. Raw meaty bones will do wonder for your dog's teeth. Wow - your dog gets a monthly check up! You of course must do what you feel is best for your dog. I just worry that you are spending your hard earned cash on something may or may not help your dog when there are other things like excellent food that would definately have a positive impact.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Excellent food is the best way. Going to the source by reading the book is the best way to judge.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

What book are you referring to? Is it on the web?


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

The book is also on the website doublehelixwater.com, with the story of its development and scientific information.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

There's nothing new under the sun. The claims by the double helix water people sound just like those that were made for magical PentaWater.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Please check out this website:
American Technologies Group: What Are They Up To?

You will see that the people that wrote the book have been convicted of fraud in Oregon for making similiar claims under a company with a different name. 

To me the proponents of this water are the lowest of the low preying on the sick and those that care for them. If this water cured most cancers or even did one tenth of what they claim it would be the headline of every newspaper in the country. If the claims are true about this water why hasn’t Shui Yin Lo been nominated for a Nobel Prize for this discovery? Even their own papers, presented as 'evidence' lack any of the traits found in actual scientific research - blind trials, even a control group, and they admit themselves that their key parameters showed little change, and that their trials were too small to be in any way significant. Are you aware he used his water theory to give you better laundry with the product Laundry Balls which is now defunct after having been given a fine of $165,000 for making false claims. Why is he also spending time on The Force Formula 1 & 2 which is suppose to help your car engine work better. If he has made such a significant medical discovery why would he do this?


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Controversy is addressed in the book. Also see "Galileo's Lawyer" by Richard Jaffe at richardjaffe.com and Amazon.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Does the OP work for this company? I have seen a lot of posts from you about this product across various thread on this forum.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

My holistic vet is using it and I very much respect his intellect and judgment. My poodle is using it and I can definitely see a difference in her health. I do my own reading and research, and I believe that any new idea can be suspect. Thanks for all comments......


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

It's on SkeptVet:

Double Helix Water: More Magic Water Quackery | The SkeptVet Blog

I'm very sorry but this is a con. I'm an ex chemist and there is no respectable research anywhere I have ever seen that shows water has any kind of permanent structure or 'structural memory'. Water according to current theory and studies has a dynamic structure largely governed by hydrogen bonds between the hydrogen atoms and the lone pairs of the oxygen atoms. This structure is constantly forming and reforming, apart from when water freezes and the hydrogen bonds form a regular, ordered lattice. This structure is lost when the ice melts.

This is the same 'theories' as are behind homeopathy, and homeopathy is one pseudoscience that has been proven over and over not to work. This takes it one step further by selling people what is openly just distilled water with nothing in it. The website these hustlers have made I can see would be very convincing to a layman, but the scientists listed on it publish only in bogus journals and all the claims on it are false.

OP: I would look for another vet. Please don't give money to ripoff merchants.

Dogs do enjoy raw meat and bones and it does seem to benefit their oral hygiene, but there's also no proper evidence that homemade diets of any sort are any healthier than commercial alternatives, so take any claims made about them with a pinch of salt also.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Some major commercial pet diets have ingredients in them that eventually sicken animals, and pet companies don't deny this. They know that they don't have to change their food to sell as much as they do, and they don't care.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

petitpie said:


> Some major commercial pet diets have ingredients in them that eventually sicken animals, and pet companies don't deny this.


With all respect, unless you have a reference for this from a scientific study or a reliable authority on the subject, this is a conspiracy theory and not facts/data. Many commercial foods do contain questionable or highly controversial substances -- as can foods from other sources -- and there have been accidents in the past where food has been contaminated, but that's not the same thing. When there are suspect substances involved (e.g. ethoxyquin) individual consumers need to evaluate the research on the subject and make the decision for themselves and choose a food that does or doesn't contain such substances based on that.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Corn syrup is an example.....please see for yourself.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

What do commercial pet diets have to do with water? What do you feed your dog? Doesn't the fact that a company run by the proponents of helix water was fined for fraud give you pause? I would not have confidence in a vet that promotes this obvious con.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

I am seeing benefits for my toy poodle.


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

If there's no scientific data to back up the claims, I wouldn't trust the product. 

Maybe you're seeing a placebo effect.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

My toy poodle doesn't know what a placebo effect is.....too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence....I'm reserving judgment.


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

To clarify - I meant on you 

You expect to see or experience something positive, even subconsciously, and you do. Like I said, I like sourced information, scientific data, and double blind trials. Not to say there might not be some magical potion somewhere, but so many of these things turn out to be busts.

Remember when laetrile was supposed to cure cancer?


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

I didn't expect to see her teeth dramatically clean themselves......I'm reserving judgment.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Here's my take, FWIW:

Your holistic vet is a businessman (or woman). The Double-Helix Water Company is a business and they're selling a product. BOTH ARE OUT TO MAKE MONEY. Of course they're going to have an answer for everything, including the fraud allegations. Unfortunately, that's what cons do--use artfully crafted language to sell you anything from magic beans to sunshine in a jar. 

I too have a holistic vet (along with my standard vet) and if she suggested I utilize this water I'd report her to the veterinary board. A vet--holistic, integrated or whatever their approach--shouldn't recommend (controversial/unproven) products like this, IMHO. 

Look at it this way: If _you _were diagnosed with cancer and your doctor suggested you use this product, would you? Would you question his/her judgment or agenda? I hope no to the former and yes to the latter. (I would wonder if s/he has a financial interest in the company, just as vets who push Science Diet dog food.)

I have a human anatomy/physiology background and I'm not a chemist so I won't comment on the claims made by this company, but I think you're being misled, and furthermore, I feel that you're wasting your money. 

If this water was a magical cure for all, then every dog owner, vet, surgeon, human being on the planet would be using it and there would be no more health problems. _There's no such thing as a miracle cure or product (not even my beloved CC Peace & Kindness or Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar )._ 

As JE-UK said, the rooster crows when the sun comes up but he doesn't make it come up. You said your senior poo's teeth whitened after starting the water. I have a really hard time believing this water had anything to do with the change.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

You might like to read "Galileo's Lawyer".......


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

petitpie said:


> You might like to read "Galileo's Lawyer".......


Oh, I'm familiar with the book and I'm all for freedom of choice in one's healthcare. 

I still don't think there is enough scientific evidence to support the Double Helix water claims. 

This will end up a circular discussion so let's agree to disagree. How you choose to spend your money is entirely up to you. Based on my research of this company, it just happens to be my opinion that your money is better spent elsewhere.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

My purpose is not to convince anyone but to simply report what I saw occur with my poodle's teeth and health, offer a source of information, and then continue my search for a better understanding of new therapies. Nothing else changed in her routine. Instead of her teeth still being sensitive, she is now chewing on hard treats like the spoos. As long as I see improvement, I willingly look to ideas that might have some beneficial outcome, however they may happen. Disagreement is our heritage and we embrace it.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

petitpie said:


> Instead of her teeth still being sensitive, she is now chewing on hard treats like the spoos.


It may be the hard chews that are making the difference. How can you be sure there is a difference? Did your vet, the one who sold you this, examine her and tell you there was a difference?

If you're convinced the water is helping, you can get the same, identical medicine from your nearest kitchen sink -- and it will cost a lot less. It's not a new therapy. It's someone selling snake oil. Where this comes from is nothing like the process that goes in to making a medicine. The only established benefit to it is that it won't harm your dog, because it is simply water.

Re: your other post about not offending people. I'm not offended. I hope you find a solution for your dog's medical condition. I just feel bad to see someone being ripped off. As someone from a scientific background, I don't like to see unsubstantiated claims and woolly ideals about 'natural' always being better than artificial masquerading under a facade of bogus science designed to delude people who don't have a good grasp of the scientific method -- and the website for this product is very much so.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

I find that those from scientific backgrounds protest the most. Please see "Galileo's Lawyer." If UCLA is employing quacks these days, then we have more problems than simply water.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

petitpie said:


> *I find that those from scientific backgrounds protest the most. * Please see "Galileo's Lawyer." If UCLA is employing quacks these days, then we have more problems than simply water.


(Bolding is mine.) 

Petitpie:

We're not _protesting_. We're merely expressing our skepticism. Many of us are also concerned that you might be wasting your hard-earned money. 

Those with scientific backgrounds are better equipped to review and dispute the claims made by the company. Scientists question everything. It's what they do--see the Scientific Method. Most would probably conduct an experiment to determine if this water in fact improved your dog's teeth, or to test your hypothesis.  

Scientists want to see proof whereas others are willing to take a leap of faith. 

Look at it this way: everyone is looking out for your best interests. That's a good thing. 

And with that said, I'm pulling out of this one as we're really circling the drain, and we keep coming back to Galileo's Lawyer.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Thanks, but you might also want to check on UCLA.:angel:


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

petitpie said:


> I find that those from scientific backgrounds protest the most. Please see "Galileo's Lawyer." If UCLA is employing quacks these days, then we have more problems than simply water.


Those from scientific backgrounds protest the most because medicine is within the domain of science. Science is the philosophy of _evidence-based reasoning_. The only difference between an 'alternative medicine' and medicine are that the medicine has been proven to be effective in treating the condition it's for. Digitalis and aspirin are such natural medicines. Some day, someone may find evidence that water can contain stable microstructures and that these structures have effects on biological systems, and if this research has been carried out properly, science will accept that. But it is extremely irresponsible for these people to market water at extortionate prices as medicine when they have no proof of this.

Unless someone is a minor or has been sectioned, they have a right to refuse medical treatment. I am not sure of the specifics in the USA as I have never lived there, but if a medical practitioner forces a treatment on someone, this is a violation of their human rights and they have every right to take that practitioner to court as in your 'Galileo's Lawyer' book and the practitioner deserves to be struck off. Just because someone practices science, that does not mean they automatically practice it properly or ethically. Unscrupulous people can come from any profession.

My partner's mother made a living will instructing treatment not be used to keep her alive while she was dying. My great grandmother had cancer and was offered chemotherapy with a 50:50 chance of survival; she said the odds were not good enough and chose no treatment and died. I refused treatment from a specialist for a medical problem I suffer from because I found the treatments he was offering unsatisfactory and his manner patronising and offensive. On the other hand, I have known people, particularly women giving birth, who have been violated in this respect because they were in a vulnerable situation and weren't fully aware of their rights. It is not the fault of the medicine being used to treat them, but the fault of zealous practitioners.

I am not sure what the UCLA is within this context: a Google search suggests it is the University of California in LA.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm not sure where the current antipathy towards science & medicine has come from, but I find it really disturbing. We have had centuries to refine our approach to scientific investigation, and there are rigorous checks and balances in place to ensure biases don't creep in. And still people fall prey to witch doctors and snake oil.

I am thinking of changing careers; I am going to market my magic pants as a sure-fire way to prevent car accidents. EVERY SINGLE TIME I wear these pants, I DON'T HAVE A CAR ACCIDENT!!!! It's inexplicable by anything other than the fact that these are magic pants! I am living proof! I think they prevent cancer too, because every time I wear them, I DON'T GET CANCER!!!


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Dangerous drug interactions and over-prescription is a place to start looking for abuse with science and medicine. Masking an illness instead of addressing its underlying cause sets up the patient for terrible side effects and a vicious cycle of maladies. If this is our medical heritage, then it might give witch doctors and snake oil a good name. UCLA employs those doctors with their oil. For more factual information, please start there....


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Here is a collection of lists of people reported as having been directly or indirectly killed or otherwise harmed by bogus medicines and treatments:

What's The Harm?

"Masking an illness instead of addressing its underlying cause"

It's a favourite catchphrase of snake oil salesmen to claim that medical practitioners 'mask symptoms' whereas they 'treat the cause' or 'treat the whole person/ animal'. This doesn't actually make any sense. If someone has cancer, a surgeon removing a cancerous mass isn't masking a symptom. If someone is born with a deformed face or mutilated in an accident, a medic doing reconstructive surgery to restore appearance and function is not masking a symptom. If someone is in pain, it's unethical to refuse them painkillers to take away the symptom of pain.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Thank God that science and medicine cross all boundries, and may I say we live in different countries. Our experiences might be quite different. We are all blessed with a long and beneficial scientific and medical history. The explosion of drugs in this country without the usual rigorous checks and balances is very troublesome, indeed, and has fallen victim to dishonorable forces.


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