# Poodle size decision?



## sunnyday (Mar 12, 2015)

I feel like a crazy person!

Like many others these days, it seems, my family has decided that a "medium" sized poodle is right for us. Since we're not willing to travel for a responsibly bred moyen, this means taking our chances on a large mini or a small standard. The problem is, I can't decide which direction to go! I have been changing my mind several times per day, until I feel like my head is spinning.

When I think about purchase cost, maintenance cost (including health care/inherited disease), portability, and the quality of local breeders (the ones I've found are health testing AND proving their dogs in their venue of choice,) I find I am completely convinced to go with a miniature.

When I think about personality, athleticism, and the availability/flexibility of local breeders (the ones I've found do all appropriate health testing and are committed to place their pups in good pet homes, and there are several in the area all eager to make a good match,) the standards have it hands down.

As a disclaimer, I'm in a "standard" headspace right now, but I feel like I should point out that our reasons for getting a dog are to have a hiking/jogging companion eventually...a "backup" for me when I'm alone in the house and things go bump...and a buddy for my school-aged kids. Our last dog was about 43 pounds, and while I wouldn't mind going smaller, that was a good size. We are active -- in terms of getting outdoors regularly and spending our free time hiking and walking together or exercising -- but quiet -- in terms of spending our indoor time sitting with a good book or playing quietly.

How do I decide? How would you decide?


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

IMHO. Larger and smaller individuals of a given and carefully bred breed are more likely to have recessive genes. This does not for one moment mean that a "good" dog will not be the result. Go for either a well bred mini or spoo, not half and half!!. You have done a lot of research already. This forum has regular requests for "Moyen" poodles. There are a lot of people who want a dog larger than a mini and smaller than a spoo. There are breeders who will cater for this. Some do so well. others are breeding spoos with minis and toys. The results are very variable. 43 lbs is a lower size for a spoo. few minis will reach this. Average for a spoo bitch is about 48lbs. I feel sure you could handle this. I may be biased: but spoos are brilliant dogs. But be prepared for any weight from 35-60lbs. Sppos are good watch dogs they will warn of any incursion to their territory and have a growl that would chill your blood. My girl stands in front of me when threatened. But then, I am an old F%%t and she is my protector. Grace is a TV addict she will watch TV with me for hours. When I read she rests or sleeps at my side. She is 2 y/o.
Eric.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

there are wonderful examples of both whose owners are members here, though spoos tend to carry the day at pf. someone said she is on the list for coplar creek poodles (spoos) in washington. i think someone else just posted about getting or being about to get a kamman mini (located in washington). 

perhaps go to a few dog shows? it's a good way to meet owners, breeders and the dogs themselves. you may be surprised to find some of your ideas turned upside down.


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## Gryphon (Nov 5, 2013)

I have a mini so there is where I decided to land. He is extremely sturdy and can hike for longer distances and more hours than I can. He loves the beach.  He can run like a bat out of hell, he will fetch until my arm falls off. He is extremely gung ho. I think both miniatures and standards can provide all of the energy and activity that you are looking for.
As others have said, the most important step is to find a breeder that breeds sound, healthy dogs that have all the checks and tests done. AND, have a long talk with the breeder, meet her and see her setup in person, and explain with as much clarity and detail the sort of personality you hope to have in your dog. It is never a sure thing, but this will increase your chance of getting a puppy that is a good match for what you want to do.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

sunnyday said:


> I feel like a crazy person!
> 
> Like many others these days, it seems, my family has decided that a "medium" sized poodle is right for us. Since we're not willing to travel for a responsibly bred moyen, this means taking our chances on a large mini or a small standard. The problem is, I can't decide which direction to go! I have been changing my mind several times per day, until I feel like my head is spinning.
> 
> ...


I don't think miniatures and standards have the same personality traits. You need to go on that more than size since you are waffling on that. What do you mean by flexible breeders? that's a buzzword to me.

pr


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## ChantersMom (Aug 20, 2012)

As much as I love my spoo, I wish he was smaller. I see so many good things about a mini...someone posted some fantastic agility U-tubes with minis and boy, was I impressed!


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I'm very biased but I would go with a small standard. I just think they are sturdier than the average mini. There are some oversized minis that are built very sturdy (like Beau), but most minis I see on a daily basis tend to have a more fragile build. 

I have a smaller standard girl (product of a normal sized parents). Someone in the litter has to be the smallest, right? she is the perfect size to me. She is about 30 lbs now but I think she will grow to the high 30s or 40. 

I can easily pick her up and go, but she's not too small or fine boned. I think the "moyen" size you want is a great size! I like the bigger, rounder muzzles of standards vs the slimmer muzzles of the smaller poodles so I like the look of a small standard vs a larger mini. 

Just my opinion. Health and temperament of course is number 1!


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I think Beau and Chagall are great examples of that gray area between minis and standards. Excellent builds. Beautiful boys. Perfect size.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Naira said:


> I think Beau and Chagall are great examples of that gray area between minis and standards. Excellent builds. Beautiful boys. Perfect size.


I agree those are great sizes. I think there is a real Moyen sized desire. I wish poodle breeders would address this. I am also learning there are a lot of large standards out there. I thought Piper was small until I went to a dog show and saw the size of the show dogs. If you aren't seeking a larger spoo, I would go to a show breeder and buy a spoo from show lines. I think my odds would be better of getting a smaller standard under 50 pounds.

pr


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Naira said:


> I'm very biased but I would go with a small standard. I just think they are sturdier than the average mini. There are some oversized minis that are built very sturdy (like Beau), but most minis I see on a daily basis tend to have a more fragile build.
> 
> I have a smaller standard girl (product of a normal sized parents). Someone in the litter has to be the smallest, right? she is the perfect size to me. She is about 30 lbs now but I think she will grow to the high 30s or 40.
> 
> ...


Do you think Naira will only get another 10 pounds? Piper is 38-39 right now. I notice that she has recently gotten a little bonier so maybe she is going through a growth spurt. I am always wondering and fussing with how big she is going to be, lol. She perfect right now, actually.

pr


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

A large mini is not going to be "the same" as a small standard. You are still really talking about a large range in size. It is a difference that is hard to notice without a frame of reference. 

Here is my girl Hazel meeting with a couple of minis. Hazel is a small standard at only 20 inches. The 2 poodles in this picture are minis who aren't oversize but the difference should be easy to see. The black girl is close to oversize, I wanna say her owner said she is over 14 inches already. The silver mini is 12 inches. All 3 poodles (and this is the most helpful part!) in this picture are the same age. They were all 3 born within weeks of each other. (The corgi too). You can see how at closer to 19 inches (at the time of the picture) Hazel towers over both minis. If the black mini gains any more height (completely possible because Hazel has!) then she will be an oversize mini. 

Even when Hazel was 14-16 inches she was never as slight as these girls. I'd love to see Hazel (or another small standard) standing beside a true "large mini" (or, at least that's my excuse for a meeting with Changall!!)

























I really think that you will be hard pressed to find a "Small Standard" who falls below 18 inches or a "tall mini" who is taller then 18 inches. And I'm not convinced that an 18 inch SS will look or be the same as an 18 inch LM. I'd hazard to guess that most LMs are going to run 15-17 inches and most SSs are going to hit 19-21 inches. 

I really do see the need for the 4th Moyen size and I do hope to see them become more popular. 

Also, trying to hit a specific size will be nearly impossible. You can kind of guess based on both parents but there's always a wild card. 

I think finding a small standard is the easier of the 2 to find. Show breeders don't want "big minis" because the can't show them. 

Anyway, that might be some information to help you think. Either way you go I think you will be happy. There are lots of benefits to both sizes. Hazel is a great size for us. I didn't set out looking for a small standard. I actually wanted a male in the 25" range and my sister talked me into giving a small girl a try and... Love love love! I no longer want a taller guy! (I still secretly want a silver male but that's a hole that may never get filled.)


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Poodlerunner said:


> Do you think Naira will only get another 10 pounds? Piper is 38-39 right now. I notice that she has recently gotten a little bonier so maybe she is going through a growth spurt. I am always wondering and fussing with how big she is going to be, lol. She perfect right now, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> pr



I don't know. I swear she grew two pounds yesterday. Haha. She might completely surprise me. Do you know what piper weighed at 5 months? Naira is not all that tall yet (18 in) but she is a thick boned girl. She is going to grow up to be a powerhouse. 

Whenever I see standards they are always huge. Like 27 inches or more.


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

Naira said:


> I'm very biased but I would go with a small standard. I just think they are sturdier than the average mini. There are some oversized minis that are built very sturdy (like Beau), but most minis I see on a daily basis tend to have a more fragile build.
> 
> I have a smaller standard girl (product of a normal sized parents). Someone in the litter has to be the smallest, right? she is the perfect size to me. She is about 30 lbs now but I think she will grow to the high 30s or 40.
> 
> ...



Do you really think Naria is 30 pounds already? Hazel is only about 32 pounds at 20 inches. Granted that was just me holding her on the scale but that feels about right. 

I think Hazel might gain one more inch but I don't think she will be over 35 pounds.

I know we were talking in her 52 week thread about how big she looks with all her fluff-a-love. I'm just surprised you think Naria will get that big. I think she looks pretty close to Hazel's size at that age. (They are only about 2 months apart, right? Hazel was born August 10th.)

(And how do you say her name? I always read it is Near-ah but I know that isn't right.)


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

itzmeigh said:


> A large mini is not going to be "the same" as a small standard. You are still really talking about a large range in size. It is a difference that is hard to notice without a frame of reference.
> 
> Here is my girl Hazel meeting with a couple of minis. Hazel is a small standard at only 20 inches. The 2 poodles in this picture are minis who aren't oversize but the difference should be easy to see. The black girl is close to oversize, I wanna say her owner said she is over 14 inches already. The silver mini is 12 inches. All 3 poodles (and this is the most helpful part!) in this picture are the same age. They were all 3 born within weeks of each other. (The corgi too). You can see how at closer to 19 inches (at the time of the picture) Hazel towers over both minis. If the black mini gains any more height (completely possible because Hazel has!) then she will be an oversize mini.
> 
> ...



I totally agree that finding a SS is easier to find than a LM. And I agree that the look and bone structure is going to be different between the two and I prefer the look of the SS. Beau and Chagall look like standard poodles but just shrunk down proportionally. I love their muzzles and builds...IMO, both are built more like standards and that's why I've been very fond of them. 

Look up Outwest's Bonnie or Peppersb's Cammie. Small standard girls that are about 21-22 inches. Or Outwest's sisters' Chili. A true moyen boy that is about an 18 inch powerhouse. There are pics of Chilli standing next to Bonnie.


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

Naira said:


> I totally agree that finding a SS is easier to find than a LM. And I agree that the look and bone structure is going to be different between the two and I prefer the look of the SS. Beau and Chagall look like standard poodles but just shrunk down proportionally. I love their muzzles and builds...IMO, both are built more like standards and that's why I've been very fond of them.
> 
> Look up Outwest's Bonnie or Peppersb's Cammie. Small standard girls that are about 21-22 inches. Or Outwest's sisters' Chili. A true moyen boy that is about an 18 inch powerhouse. There are pics of Chilli standing next to Bonnie.



And I disagree. I don't think Changall looks like a SS at all. Beau, I can't remember. But just from pictures I didn't realize Changall was a tall mini for a long time. 

Now, maybe that's because Changall's beauty clouds even a sane person's vision!! But still, he looks like a mini. 

I'm off to look up these others you speak of...


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

itzmeigh said:


> Do you really think Naria is 30 pounds already? Hazel is only about 32 pounds at 20 inches. Granted that was just me holding her on the scale but that feels about right.
> 
> I think Hazel might gain one more inch but I don't think she will be over 35 pounds.
> 
> ...



I weigh Naira alllll the time lol. Like at least once a day. She is 29 lbs and 21 weeks I think Hazel is 32 weeks right? I'm giving her 10 pounds of wiggle because she's so young. It is Ny Ra  

She was born October 27. Do you know what she weighed at 5 months? By Naira's 5 month birthday in a couple days I am certain she will weigh 30-31 lbs.


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## Michelle (Nov 16, 2009)

I would definitely look into the different personality traits...sure they are both great breeds but one might suit you better than the other. Meet a breeder of minis and one of standards...see which "clicks" better with you. 



Naira said:


> I don't know. I swear she grew two pounds yesterday. Haha. She might completely surprise me. Do you know what piper weighed at 5 months? Naira is not all that tall yet (18 in) but she is a thick boned girl. She is going to grow up to be a powerhouse.
> 
> Whenever I see standards they are always huge. Like 27 inches or more.


Yuki weighed about 30 pounds at 5 months...then he had a growth spurt and is now 50 pounds and 24 inches tall at 11 months old. He stayed small for a longgggg time. I was convinced he was going to be a small standard, then literally over night it felt like he grew 4 inches lol.


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

No. I don't really follow Hazel's weight much. I've been more "concerned" with her height then weight. And I use concerned very lightly there. 

As I said above, I wanted a bigger male going in so coming out with this "tiny little girl" has had be "worried". So usually I measure her often. Or I did until I realized I really like the size she is and if be ok if she didn't get any taller. I shocked myself when I realized I'd be fine if she didn't go over 18 inches and that's about when I slowed down on measuring her. I measured her the other night when you asked and she's pretty exactly 20 and 7 months (32 weeks) so I don't see her going over 21. At least, I sorta hope she doesn't get to 22. (Of course I'd be pleased as peach if she did!!

Lily (letters I can't remember) has a small girl, named Lily, who is 20 and she's beautiful. (She might be 21.). I spent a long time looking at her early on because both of Hazel's parents are around 20-21 so I felt comfortable that is the range she would fall into.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Itzmeigh, those puppy pics are very interesting, you can really see the difference. I love the standards myself, and at the end of the day what difference does a few extra inches and pounds make. I am very partial to blacks and drool over Gracie, Piper and many other beautiful black standard pics on this forum. I love to guess, estimate and talk about what size Abbey will end up being, but the truth is I think she's perfect, and her adult size will be the perfect size for me.


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## sunnyday (Mar 12, 2015)

Poodlerunner said:


> I don't think miniatures and standards have the same personality traits. You need to go on that more than size since you are waffling on that. What do you mean by flexible breeders? that's a buzzword to me.
> 
> pr


No, that's why I put "personality" in the standard column.  

By flexible, I mostly mean that their existence affords *me* flexibility. The standard breeders I've contacted fall into the "pet breeders, but trying to be responsible" category. They're doing all health testing, but ultimately they're producing litters to sell, so some have more than one litter to offer this spring and summer, or will refer me to someone who's got a puppy available in a more appropriate timeframe. Many are also using red lines, which I understand originated with an outcross to a mini, so throwbacks to a smaller size aren't infrequent. Whereas the one mini breeder I'm most interested in is the whole shebang, she breeds to develop her conformationally correct line of show dogs (with excellent family personalities since only a few will truly go on to show). She "sometimes" produces outsize dogs, so that's why that option feels more inflexible: I'm hoping for a maybe puppy from a far future litter, and if it doesn't work, I'd stay on the list for the following year. In a perfect world I would like to be the kind of owner who's willing to wait for the right pup! But I've been dogless for three months now, and kind of not sure if I can be patient for quite that much longer. But maybe. My husband would love the long break from poop-scoop duty.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Michelle said:


> I would definitely look into the different personality traits...sure they are both great breeds but one might suit you better than the other. Meet a breeder of minis and one of standards...see which "clicks" better with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yikes!!!!!! Haha. Naira grows pretty quickly. A week ago from today she weight 25.6 lbs. today she weighs 29. At 12 weeks she was just 7 lbs. I guess we will see...I'll love her even if she grows into a moose. Hehe.


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

If all they did was breed to sell puppies then I wouldn't consider them. 

They don't have to show. But I want their dogs to do SOMETHING. There are other things like hunting, search and rescue, agility/obedience, service work... The dogs need to be winning tiles in an activity or they really shod rethink their breeding program.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I'm bumping this thread in a couple months and seeing how close we all are in our size predictions!!


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

Well round about 5 months is when Wrex really hit his big growth spurt, I think. He weighed 32lb at 20 weeks and was about 21 inches tall.

He's 9 months old now and weighed 59lb at the vet yesterday. I measured him this morning and he is 25.5 inches tall. But, he's a boy so your ladies will probably be daintier.


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## ChantersMom (Aug 20, 2012)

cmarie, sometimes I think Wrex and Chanter are brothers!


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

Our medium (Moyen sized) Poodle is just about to hit 11 months old, and he's around 19" and a very "thick" 29-31lbs. He runs and run almost every day and is very well muscled.

We think he's a great size.


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## sunnyday (Mar 12, 2015)

itzmeigh said:


> If all they did was breed to sell puppies then I wouldn't consider them.
> 
> They don't have to show. But I want their dogs to do SOMETHING. There are other things like hunting, search and rescue, agility/obedience, service work... The dogs need to be winning tiles in an activity or they really shod rethink their breeding program.


I agree completely...and yet, there's not much middle ground around here. There are hardcore competitive show breeders, or pet breeders who are trying hard to be ethical but competing at a more introductory level (IABCA conformation, Rally obedience, Novice agility)...or not at all. Most claim to produce puppies suitable for hunting/competition/service work, but it's unsubstantiated. But I confess that I'm starting to let my standards in that area relax a little. Because the full array of health testing, plus raw feeding (I have fed raw since the 1990s), plus producing a size and color I like, plus breeding infrequently and with a strong commitment to the puppies produced...I'm sometimes wondering if that doesn't outweigh the merits of a conformation title, when those dogs are mostly going to mature larger and the sire and dam sometimes only have the minimum testing to get a CHIC number. But! It really galls me to pay the premium for a purebred puppy (and sometimes a color premium on top of that) and not get any expert advice to go with it, no experience with how the puppy's angles, proportions, and temperament combine to mature into a competition prospect...ugh. So confused.


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

sunnyday said:


> I agree completely...and yet, there's not much middle ground around here. There are hardcore competitive show breeders, or pet breeders who are trying hard to be ethical but competing at a more introductory level (IABCA conformation, Rally obedience, Novice agility)...or not at all. Most claim to produce puppies suitable for hunting/competition/service work, but it's unsubstantiated. But I confess that I'm starting to let my standards in that area relax a little. Because the full array of health testing, plus raw feeding (I have fed raw since the 1990s), plus producing a size and color I like, plus breeding infrequently and with a strong commitment to the puppies produced...I'm sometimes wondering if that doesn't outweigh the merits of a conformation title, when those dogs are mostly going to mature larger and the sire and dam sometimes only have the minimum testing to get a CHIC number. :alberteinstein: But! It really galls me to pay the premium for a purebred puppy (and sometimes a color premium on top of that) and not get any expert advice to go with it, no experience with how the puppy's angles, proportions, and temperament combine to mature into a competition prospect...ugh. So confused.



And I can agree with some of your points as well. 

I do feel that there isn't a whole lot of middle ground. To appease me you (the breeder) don't have to be "over the top" active in all kinds of "whatever" but I'd like to see that your dog do something other than produce puppies. 

I feel like I'm making that statement sound pretty cut and dry but really I have a little flex in there and I'm willing to "listen". 

I guess really I think my biggest question for a breeder would be "what is your goal with your breeding program".

Sometimes finding the right dog for you means finding the right breeder for you. There have been breeders I've looked at where I passed on them not because they weren't good breeders but because their goal didn't equal my goal. (Is that clear as mud or what!)

Feeding raw isn't really on my radar. I can't feed raw. If that was a breeder's requirement then I'd have to pass. There are a few things like this on my list.


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## Bizzeemamanj (Apr 14, 2014)

Hi Sunnyday!

You sit at the exact crossroads I found myself sitting a bit over a year ago.  Your family even sounds like mine. Now, I'm going to be a bit biased because I'm pleased as punch with my decision, but our mini Cooper is exactly the pup you describe. Active, athletic, sturdy, chill when needed (now that he's an older puppy) and a great family companion. He hikes, swims, kayaks with us and just is always willing to go on any adventure we take him on. He's at the top end of size for conformity (in that he's 15" at the withers and weighs right around 20 pounds). Nothing dainty about his build - he's quite sturdy.

That said, I agree with the poster who said you'd never mistake his build for that of a standard (or a toy). As sturdy as he is for a mini, he's just that - a sturdy mini. His bone structure is smaller and he's built a bit differently than even the smallest standards. His buddy Murphy is a small standard, but you'd never mistake him for a mini. His body is just different.

As for temperament, I think you can find what you're looking for in either a mini or a standard. Just find a breeder you want to work with and be very clear about what you want in terms of temperament. That's been the greatest joy for me - seeing Cooper growing into the exact "dream" dog I described to my breeder from day one of our relationship. He's just the best and exactly what I wanted for our family.


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## sunnyday (Mar 12, 2015)

I think I've seen some of your Cooper threads and they've swayed me quite a lot. Imagine, half the food but just as much dog-ness! LOL. I bet he wouldn't take up much space in a tent when you go camping either.  I also found JIB's website (and one puppy I am considering is a descendent of JIB,) and the breeder I admire most sent me photos of one of the larger dogs she's produced going mountain hiking in the snow, and kayaking.  I said that my last dog's 43 pounds was a good size, but at the end even though she'd lost some weight and was down to 40 pounds, I struggled a little to carry her up and down the stairs multiple times per day. And don't shoot me but she didn't travel crated because her crate was just too big to take places. When I say I wouldn't mind smaller, I mean that I kind of dream of a dog that's a LOT more portable. 

But thanks to everyone on this thread, seriously. You've reminded me about my high expectations for what a good breeder can offer, and reminded me that they are really out there. You've also pointed out that a 20-22" female standard isn't THAT far out of the average range and I might be able to find it from a show breeder. I will go ahead and contact a couple of them as well.

I think my husband's opinion might end up being the deciding factor. He's not gung-ho about getting a dog at all, so I had kind of hoped to just say "I found a breeder, let's go visit," but I do suspect he'll have a preference and I can't predict what it'll be.

I also just finally got a login for the PHR database, so I'm going to poke around there and see what I find! I lurve pedigree research.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

These pics might help you. They helped me when figuring out what size I wanted. I hope its not against the rules to post another member's pics.

Outwest's Chili, Bonnie and Jazz. Chili is a true 18 inch moyen, I think he is about 30 lbs. He is the smallest white one. Bonnie on the left, is a petite standard female..I think about 22 inch and 40 lbs. Jazz on the far right is a full size standard...he might not even be fully grown in this picture, I remember him being a rather large dog.










This is Cammie, a small standard at 21.5 in and 33-35 lbs









Here is another pic of Chili and Bonnie..The moyen and small standard.









I think "Chili" is the size/look you want. Like someone said earlier, (Short of getting a well bred moyen) you would have much better luck finding a small standard chili's size and build than finding a mini of that size.

Here is the full grown jazz (standard) next to a mini (cooper). HUGE difference. 









I was trying to find some pics of just Bonnie and Jazz. Here is a video of Bonnie, Jaz and Cooper when cooper was a puppy so you can see the size differnce

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2W_VQW1faA


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I wish you the best of luck with your puppy search. I know it can be confusing at times. Since I am partial to spoos but did not want a large dog I was blessed to find. Show breeder with smaller spoos. Iris is about 20" and 35 lbs. just right for me! She is loyal, funny, spirited, can be a couch potato. Does not bark much but did protect me from an intruder in the house by standing over me in bed and barking a deep menacing bark I had never heard before. She travels well and has "fan clubs" all over town!

Iris is about the size of Bonnie in the previous picture, but black.

Be sure to post pictures when you get your dog.

Viking Queen


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## princesspenny (Feb 16, 2015)

I had the same problem, a mini is a small dog, a standard is a large dog and theres really not much in between  I originally tried for a moyen size but in the end they were just too hard to find. I didnt want to risk ending up with a huge dog and all the care that goes with them so in the end i got a larger size mini. I have 4 kids we are a very active family, tons of camping trips and we take our dogs everywhere so portability and a good personality were at the top of our list. Plus i like a dog in a full coat so a mini is less work for me and easier to cuddle with


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i really wish there would be more discussion of temperament. i know the claim has been made that they are not the same and differentiated by the size of the dog. that isn't evident to me yet, after reading through many posts by loving owners of both sizes.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

patk said:


> i really wish there would be more discussion of temperament. i know the claim has been made that they are not the same and differentiated by the size of the dog. that isn't evident to me yet, after reading through many posts by loving owners of both sizes.


I don't think there SHOULD be a difference. I just feel like the way small dogs are raised, tends to be different than the way large dogs are raised (no matter what breed)..unless the small dog owner makes a conscious effort. It's probably more pronounced with standards and toys. A 70 lb dog jumping up on strangers...that has to stop NOW! A toy doing it, is annoying but I'm sure strangers won't mind as much. A 70 lb dog pulling on walks could literally plop you on your face and drag you down the sidewalk. A 10 lb dog, not so much. You're less likely to pick up a 70lb dog and tolerate certain behaviors from it. Yes, you can definitely train a toy or mini to do the exact same things...but it's far easier to "let certain things slip" if the dog is smaller.

I have had a toy, mini & now a standard. They were all very poodley and intelligent. The toy was extremely high energy, the mini was very high energy as well. Naira is very laid back (but I know that's not typical for spoo puppies). As far as intelligence...the were all very smart, but had different intelligence. The toy and mini were very eager to please, the toy especially was extremely food motivated and would do any 'trick' for a treat. I wouldn't necessarily call naira food motivated, but where she wins in intelligence is that she problem solves and figures things out. Like she generalizes "scratching the door means I go outside" whether it's the front door, back door, neighbor's door, friend's door, or the door at petsmart. Sit means sit to her, whether we are inside, outside, at a friend's house or in a store.

With my toy and mini, I would have to teach them the exact behavior in every different location. The two of them never really got potty training either, even though I was very vigilant about it with them. Both would randomly have accidents after 6 months of being potty trained with no clear reason why. And again, when we went to a friend's house or on a different surface they forgot potty training again. I personally think it's easier to potty train a larger dog.

Over all, my standard has been far more mature at a younger age than my toy and mini were. The way Naira is at 5 months, is kind of the way my toy was at 5 years. 

I would not say standards were more intelligent at all. I have just observed my standard to have a different layer of intelligence. My mini/toy would pretty much obey me. Naira obeys me, but she thinks of the most efficient way to do it.


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

Our Fletcher has a blend of smaller Standard and larger Mini Poodle behind him and he's got a great temperament

In the house he's usually willing to relax, but he's not a super cuddly dog. When outside he's high energy and he's constantly running laps of the yard. He can go and go if allowed, so we actually have to monitor him so he doesn't overheat or get dehydrated.

He's fairly fearless, with a very fast recovery after being startled. He is somewhat "reactive" (very excitable but not really aggressive) around other dogs, but we're working on it and currently have him in 2 different (positive training) basic obedience classes.

He's not quite 11 months and he's already showing signs of calming even more as he matures.

We did pick the "calmest" puppy of the litter, and he was pretty fearless even at 6 weeks old. One of his siblings was much more cautious and inherently fearful, while another pup was literally climbing the x-pen (at 6 weeks old!) to get out and race around she was pretty high energy and *completely* fearless!

I add this to reiterate that even within the same litter there are a wide range of personalities and temperaments.


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## princesspenny (Feb 16, 2015)

I believing in picking the right temperament pup for you, but i don't stereotype/generalize breeds/size as having one temperament vs another. I have two Australian shepherds...many would say that these are high energy/ high drive dogs and yes some of them can be, but mine are the calmest/ most laid back easy going dogs you'd ever have met. They are couch potatoes, they will get up and go if asked to but their normal very day temperament/personality is not a high energy one. I personally wouldn't pick size based off what one person or another says about the temperament that "their" dog of that size had...kwim? I think any dog of any breed can be a good dog if the time is put into them and if you pick a dog with a personality that best suits your lifestyle. I like my calm aussies so when i picked up my poodle puppy and saw that she had the same type of personality that my older aussie had when she was a puppy i knew she was the right one for me. This is my first poodle but so far im very happy with her.


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## Khaleesiandthepoms (Feb 25, 2014)

I'm gonna agree with trying to go with a show breeder of standards you have a pretty good chance of finding a pup that will be a medium size range. I got my standard girl at Valcopy and she's about a year old and weighs only 34 pounds, I've been told she's a good weight and she isn't too tall or short and I have no problem carrying her or fitting her anywhere.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i see extrapolating from individual dogs to the whole of the variety as something of an issue, whereas i suspect sparkyjoe's comment about different temperaments within the same litter (no matter the size of the dog) is closer to reality. i'm basing this just on what owners in the numerous threads i have read since arriving at pf have said about their dogs. i don't see a template for toys or standards re temperament; i see a behavioral continuum and any one dog, no matter its size, can fall anywhere along that continuum. the main reason i would not get a standard is size, not temperament. the main reason i would not get a mini is size, not temperament. the main reason i would get a toy is size - and i expect to find the right dog with the right temperament - which would be the same temperament i would look for if the dog were a mini or a spoo. there are posts where toy owners have testified to the ability of their dogs to go on long hikes and posts where spoo owners have talked about their dogs being fearful. finding the right dog, once you get past the size issue, is about health and temperament - and being prepared to adjust to your dog's individuality. just my opinion, of course.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Oh I totally agree that you can't say all standards are one way or all minis are the other. I don't think there are any serious temperament differences, they are all poodley, I have just observed by far and wide--people tend to raise large dogs differently than small dogs and vice versa. And THAT may be why people perceive temperament differences. Not nature, but nurture. Regardless of breed...you would raise an English mastiff much differently than you would raise a chihuahua without even trying to. 

Though my dogs aren't the poster child's for their size, I do think as someone figuring out what they want it is helpful to hear stories from others.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

naira, totally agree. besides knowing what they want, people need to realize what they could get. more reason to look for a good breeder who is really knowledgeable about the breed and can try to match the puppy to the owner.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Always having toys, I would agree, it is the way the dog is treated as I think they do get away with more. However, I am strict with my girls, and they are totally different in public than at home. I let them run and play, (as long as the barking is not to loud), I do not allow it when away from the house. Plus I am always carrying them and holding them, so their attachment to me, than to my friends with larger dogs. My tiny toy I see the beginning of aggressiveness, not biting but being in control over all other dogs and pushy about it.


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## sunnyday (Mar 12, 2015)

Naira, thanks for digging out those photos! I'd seen some of those lovely dogs before, but these particular pics really do give a good idea of the size and substance we're talking about.

Anyway...the PHR database didn't help. In the show kennels I started seeing all these Wycliffe numbers above 60%, or dogs who were 2-2 linebred despite being 50% from the 5 Wycliffe dogs and 55% from the 10 Mid-Century Bottleneck dogs?! I'm not afraid of a little linebreeding in breeds with a strong foundation that are still working to set type, but not a 20% COI in a breed and line that is already so closed-in and plagued by health issues. Oi.

So now I think I have to stick with the pet breeders and/or red lines, or go Mini. Still confused.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i've said it before and i guess i can say it again. talk to arreau. she has imported dogs from europe to improve her line. i believe she said elsewhere she has two litters planned for this year (i could be wrong). you can find photos of her dogs here at pf. she's in canada and therefore because of u.s. import laws, you would have to wait past early puppyhood to get the dog. it's still worth talking to her.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

My breeder in Texas has very low COI values, because she imported from Sweden for her program. She's an AKC Breeder of Merit, known for her black SPOO's.

But back to your original question on size... The only regrets that I have about my choice, are portability and fewer hotel options because of weight restrictions. Neither deal breakers for me. However, if I had children under the age of 10, I would get an oversized MPOO. The typical nippy, jumpy puppy behavior from a larger puppy could be terrifying, instead of simply annoying to small kids and adults. My MIL was fine with my late Scotties, but she's fearful of Buck. He could easily knock her down at 9 months. Buck is my first Poodle, but I would have had to watch him like a hawk around my son's childhood friends until he was at least 2. I didn't need the added stress in those busy years of my dog knocking down a child. Your MPOO can fly with you in the cabin and go to ANY pet friendly hotel, not just Motel 6. You wouldn't even need to lie about a MPOO's weight when you register, as I did for the Scotties. I couldn't pull that off with a SPOO. It bothers me that I can't lift him easily, if at all, in case of an emergency or for a cuddle. Just my random thoughts to add to the pile.


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## sunnyday (Mar 12, 2015)

Mfmst said:


> My breeder in Texas has very low COI values, because she imported from Sweden for her program. She's an AKC Breeder of Merit, known for her black SPOO's.
> 
> But back to your original question on size... The only regrets that I have about my choice, are portability and fewer hotel options because of weight restrictions. Neither deal breakers for me. However, if I had children under the age of 10, I would get an oversized MPOO. The typical nippy, jumpy puppy behavior from a larger puppy could be terrifying, instead of simply annoying to small kids and adults. My MIL was fine with my late Scotties, but she's fearful of Buck. He could easily knock her down at 9 months. Buck is my first Poodle, but I would have had to watch him like a hawk around my son's childhood friends until he was at least 2. I didn't need the added stress in those busy years of my dog knocking down a child. Your MPOO can fly with you in the cabin and go to ANY pet friendly hotel, not just Motel 6. You wouldn't even need to lie about a MPOO's weight when you register, as I did for the Scotties. I couldn't pull that off with a SPOO. It bothers me that I can't lift him easily, if at all, in case of an emergency or for a cuddle. Just my random thoughts to add to the pile.


Thanks, I really appreciate you sharing the thoughts you've had about the same decision! I'm pretty confident in my kids' ability to handle the puppy stage (or just keep kids and dogs apart if they can't handle it, my laundry room can be gated off.) It's a good point though, about their friends not being so accepting though! Since my daughter got bitten by the neighbor's dog, I can only imagine the drama if their kids got pushed over or nipped by my dog...



patk said:


> i've said it before and i guess i can say it again. talk to arreau. she has imported dogs from europe to improve her line. i believe she said elsewhere she has two litters planned for this year (i could be wrong). you can find photos of her dogs here at pf. she's in canada and therefore because of u.s. import laws, you would have to wait past early puppyhood to get the dog. it's still worth talking to her.


Thanks, but I think Ontario is a bit far.  And although Arreau's genetic statistics are pretty good, and kudos for that, they're not *that* different from other red lines. Apparently the infusion of miniature outcrosses (in order to get the red color in the first place) brought some much-needed variety to the gene pool, and while the Old English Apricot dogs are still over-represented in their pedigrees, it's not as bad as the Wycliffe influence is on dogs with black in their background.

Husband's input: "Twenty pounds or forty pounds? How about ZERO pounds. Well, forty isn't THAT big, so I guess that one. I mean, if you were looking for a twenty pound dog we could just as easily just get another cat that size. Hm, twenty pounds would be cheaper to feed though." In other words, no help, LOL.

I think I'm going to take this slow and easy to find just the right breeder and pup, but I'm back on Team Standard today (after being thoroughly on Team Miniature yesterday, sigh.)


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Once the dog gets over 35lbs you should not be trying to pick it up anyway. You can hurt yourself or the dog. SO: if your dog is to be over 30lbs or so bigger is better!! why not 50lbs?
Eric.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Of course, I am partial to smallish spoos...here is my Dear Iris in my cousin's lap. She was tired after a long drive and helped herself to a friendly lap. Fits just nicely at 35 lbs, and I can easily lift or carry her.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I think a dog has to be really small to ride in the cabin right? I would think only toys could ride in the cabin. I think the dog has to be able to stand up in the crate and turn around comfortably or something. Maybe it was just my particular airline.


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## ROHAN-K9mm (Nov 20, 2011)

What you want is #1 TEMPERMENT. Most standards are lovely and rational. After 45 years of 2 standards at a time I decided to downsize to a Mini. I have a lovely- and well loved boy who is delerious with the joy of living. Very smart, learns quickyl and tries to train me. "If I bark at the fish will she call me and reward me for coming ? This might work well. I know this human is trainable" I can teach him anything for seconds at a time. I just got a new boy who is 9 months old who comes from a famly who have a work ethic . Very different attitude. size comes way after that


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Both my girls are around 50 lbs. They can get in the car, bath and on the grooming table by themselves. They both love to cuddle and I am really enjoying a bigger dog. I would look for the best bred dog that was health tested. I would not give size or color much thought.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

sunnyday, see this thread started by mollymuima: 

http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodl...c-diversity-test-other-interesting-stuff.html

although the breeder involved is a long way away from you, since you are so concerned about diversity issues, you may still want to talk to her. very interesting developments on the breeding/diversity front.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

ROHAN-K9mm said:


> What you want is #1 TEMPERMENT. Most standards are lovely and rational. After 45 years of 2 standards at a time I decided to downsize to a Mini. I have a lovely- and well loved boy who is delerious with the joy of living. Very smart, learns quickyl and tries to train me. "If I bark at the fish will she call me and reward me for coming ? This might work well. I know this human is trainable" I can teach him anything for seconds at a time. I just got a new boy who is 9 months old who comes from a famly who have a work ethic . Very different attitude. size comes way after that


Your boy sounds very much like Hans - he is always trying to train us! The latest "trick" he taught us goes something like this: 

Hans: "The humans are on MY couch again! Stupid humans!" (Rings bells so we have to get up to let him out). 
Humans: Get up to let the dog out. 
Hans: (once outside) "Bark! Bark bark bark! OMG! Humans, come quick! There's something out here!!!"

(Humans go outside to see what is wrong). Door opens, poodle dashes inside and leaps onto the couch).

Hans: "Haha! It was a trick! I was barking at nothing but the couch is mine!"

Little brat....

On the size issue, we wanted a medium poodle but realized that finding one in the US might be almost impossible. We ended up with a small standard, mostly because we decided we would rather have a standard that got bigger than we had hoped than a mini that stayed smaller than we had hoped. 

We both have always had big dogs, and felt like an in size mini would be too small for us. We also preferred the more robust look of a standard (I've seen some minis I love, but many of them are more finely built than what I wanted). Hans is about 45-46lbs, so he isn't tiny, but for a male I think that is pretty good (we wanted a male). I think we could have gotten a puppy that finished a little smaller if we had chosen a female. And really, he is all legs so when he curls up he doesn't take up much room. 

The final deciding factor for us was finding a breeder we loved, though. We looked at mini and standard breeders, but when we found Han's breeder, and saw his sire, we knew we wanted a puppy from that breeder and sired by that dog. We wanted a breeder that did show in conformation, and also one that we got along with and who was willing to answer questions down the road. We have kept in touch (there is a Facebook group for everyone who has puppies from her which is really cool) and she's always available if we have questions. It's a shame that the breeders near you seem to fall into one extreme or the other...


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## sunnyday (Mar 12, 2015)

patk said:


> sunnyday, see this thread started by mollymuima:
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodl...c-diversity-test-other-interesting-stuff.html
> 
> although the breeder involved is a long way away from you, since you are so concerned about diversity issues, you may still want to talk to her. very interesting developments on the breeding/diversity front.


Thanks for that! My observations on the PHR had already lead me to the Standard Poodle Project, but I will look forward to that slide presentation that was linked. It's amazing how much can be done with DNA sequencing these days!



FireStorm said:


> The final deciding factor for us was finding a breeder we loved, though. We looked at mini and standard breeders, but when we found Han's breeder, and saw his sire, we knew we wanted a puppy from that breeder and sired by that dog. We wanted a breeder that did show in conformation, and also one that we got along with and who was willing to answer questions down the road. We have kept in touch (there is a Facebook group for everyone who has puppies from her which is really cool) and she's always available if we have questions. It's a shame that the breeders near you seem to fall into one extreme or the other...


I may have painted a too-negative picture. It's more a matter of me having Goldilocks issues. One breeder is too far...one doesn't do any kind of competitive thing...one won't answer my questions about size and another won't answer my questions about socialization...another's current litter is timed just a little bit right to be wrong. There are 8 breeders of standards and 2 breeders of miniatures on my list that are within 5 hours of me, all of them ethical and health-conscious enough. An embarrassment of riches! (And there are several others that I'm aware of that didn't make my list.) But the *perfect* breeder seemed elusive...until this conversation helped to crystallize it.  

Thanks to the folks who urged considering temperament rather than size, and finding the right breeder, I am about 95% sure I'm going with the person who's closest to me, a show breeder of minis. I might be waiting a long time for a puppy (she doesn't have firm plans yet for this year's litter, and there's no way of knowing if there will be a puppy for me when they arrive) but I think that's okay. Better to wait for the right one than rush into something I might regret.  This way I have lots of time to meet her and meet her dogs and prepare for a new arrival!

I might still contact one more show standard breeder as well though.


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