# Graphic Standard Poodles...Opinions and mine



## brownlikewoah

Thank you for the honest feedback about this breeder. I don't personally have any experience with them, but it is good to know, I know Graphic lines are pretty popular. This hits pretty close to home, I too have a silver girl (no graphic lines) and found out that her sire just died at 6.5 years old... although there is no other history of something like this happening in the pedigree, it is very disconcerting. 
I really don't get the whole line breeding thing.


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## onlypoodles4me

I have no personal experience with her. I have spoken to her on several occasions at dogs shows, and on the phone when I started looking for my first standard over 20 years ago.

I do know several people who have had dealings with her and were concerned about her having too many puppies at once as well not being receptive when there is a problem. One would expect a little more support from the breeder after the point of sale.

Having tons of champions does not always equate a good breeder.


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## schnauzerpoodle

onlypoodles4me said:


> Having tons of champions does not always equate a good breeder.


EXACTLY! There are puppy mills and there are ribbon mills.


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## kcp1227

I was looking at a breeder who has produced tons of champions and her poodles all have a certain look to them. They are beautiful and well known, but I had several concerns along the lines of what you've mentioned, never mind that I could never get a response to any of my inquiries. I want a relationship with the breeder I choose. I want someone who cares about the puppies they breed after they've left their home (not saying this breeder doesn't as I was never given the chance to ask questions). At any rate, I've found a breeder who seems to have the qualities I'm looking for and her lines don't seem to run all together too much. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## MollyMuiMa

schnauzerpoodle said:


> EXACTLY! There are puppy mills and there are ribbon mills.


I AGREE!:frown:


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## Keithsomething

I won't speak to any of the things you've experienced with this breeder...or anything about them because I have no experience with them, nor do I know anyone personally with experience with them...BUT you mentioned that it concerned you that the dogs looked like the best across generations. I think the reason breeders breed is to produce healthy sound animals that are able to be beloved family pets as well as fantastic show dogs, that adhere to our breed standard. An underlying reason to breed is to set a look, NOTHING excites a breeder more than hearing someone say "OH that must be a ______ poodle, look at it!" breeders strive to have dogs look a certain way because of their personal goals...while sticking to the standard and I'm actually a little confused that that would be a concern of yours =\


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## outwest

Heavy line breeding produces less variety. I am sure that is what she was saying. When dogs begin to all look like each other than you know there is a lot of line and inbreeding. That's different than if they have similar heads or something like that.

#1: Health and structural soundness
#2: personality and intelligence
#3: looks
#4: poodliness
#5: athleticism

That's my personal preference. If they are not healthy and also structurally sound then great personalities and terrific looks do not matter. 

I have met several of that breeders poodles. I can not attest to anything other than, for my tastes, they were too calm and quiet. I prefer a smart and spunky dog with robust energy. Many people may prefer the laid back sweet personalities, especially in a standard, but I like some zip and eye sparkle. I believe you can get more zip and a smarter dog in a more diverse dog. This is my opinion. 

One dog I have seen regularly at the dog park. I was talking to the owner a while back and asked how old their dog was. They said 7 years old. I thought their dog was at least 10, so Big Roo's observation about early aging I have seen in that one dog, too. The three I have met all had calm natures. That is what stuck out about them to me, which as I said, some people may want. The one at the dog park did not play fetch, which was not what I usually think of when I think of a standard poodle (usually fetching machines!). 

Big Roo, I am so sorry you lost both your dogs so young. Go for something different this next time.


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## Lovapoodle

*My experience....*

I want to chime in about Graphic poodles, and Florence Graham. We had a dog bred from a Graphic silver male. We got the puppy from a different breeder, who used a Graphic dog as a sire. Our poodle was a beautiful dog, with an amazing temperament. He did have a lot of health problems. He lived to 11 1/2. We recently visited Florence. She is a lovely person. But her home and dog areas were very troubling. As was the fact that she still had 3 16 week old puppies in her "kennel" area. It was very unclean, and one of the puppies in particular seemed very unsocialized and timid and did not want to be held. She had runny eyes as well. The other two were pretty beautiful and curious.....one with runny eyes. but all three seemed like they needed a great deal more human interaction. And the filthy condition of her premises was VERY UPSETTING. I left in tears and very distraught. I am going to let the Poodle Club and the AKC know of our experience of her situation. She appears to still be classified as an AKC Breeder of Merit, which is shocking.

Where she may have had a name quite some time ago, I don't think she is a responsible breeder, and it pains me to say that. She seems to have had a lot of health issues of her own, and I think she's just not able to do what she once did. But the bottom line is that her gene pool is too shallow, and she freely admits that she line-breeds. She was telling us that she is looking forward to breeding a grandfather/granddaughter mix. I'm no expert, but that just doesn't seem right when the breed suffers from such genetic problems already. Variation seems critical. And she is very upfront about not worrying about genetics. I am pretty sure that the breeder of our silver boy disassociated with Florence a long time ago, and now I understand why. 

I'm sorry to say these things. She seems like a nice person. Her house dogs were lovely, one in particular was a seriously beautiful and loving and playful dog. But the puppies are a huge concern. The poodle rescue I spoke to did NOT have good things to say about her. I was told that she won't release unsold pups to rescue because she doesn't want to ruin her "reputation". What happens to those dogs I don't even want to know. It broke my heart.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

How incredibly sad. If what you are saying here is factual, and I have no reason to believe it is not, this is just terribly, terribly sad. Graphic was once a sought after and highly respected line of silvers. I know Florence is not a young woman, and it would have been great for her is she had brought in a protege and worked with them and let them eventually take over the line while helping her in her autumn years. Breaks my heart. This is exactly what Susan Fraser of Bibelot did. She befriended a younger woman than her, mentored her and they work hand in hand. Deb Drake of Tolka Poodles will eventually inherit the Bibelot name and everything associated with it. It is a great union and takes the pressure off Susan Fraser who is also not a young woman. They are both meticulous about the conditions the pups live in and are diligent about their socialization. Just so very sad.


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## Lovapoodle

I was just there yesterday and saw with my own eyes. To be fair, I do not fully understand where all the puppies are coming from, and where and by whom they are being whelped. I got the sense that she is working with other people who do the whelping, as she admitted that she couldn't do it herself any longer. It's a little unclear if the puppies that were at her house were full time residents waiting to be re-homed, or if they live elsewhere and were brought over for our appointment. We did not go there with the understanding that there were even puppies to see. It was mostly just a meet and greet. We loved our silver boy that came from one of her great dogs, and we really wanted to meet her and connect and talk about possible future silvers. But there's no way I'll be doing that now. 

Two sweet and pretty dogs were upstairs with Florence in the house. She had one really nice dog downstairs with the puppies who just finished her heat and had been bred. And the three puppies were running around the basement and the concrete outside patio. The puppies were what concerned me--their environment and the unsocialized feel. The one girl was rigid when I tried to hold her. She did not want to be held and was very shy, ducking away from me. And her eyes were runny. There was no momma of these puppies present. The pups are 16 weeks old. Florence said that she had buyers for both black pups. I'm concerned about what happens to the shy one when the other two pups are re-homed. She seemed to love those other two pups more than anything. I wanted to take her just to get her out of there, but we cannot have a shy or timid dog in our life. It's too full of other dogs and people and too stimulating. Anyway, the situation was most distressing.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

:afraid:


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## TheBigRoo

This is all very distressing and sad news. Unfortunately, it appears that Florence is breeding tragedies waiting to happen. She is doing the breed a huge disservice and it is too magnificent of a breed to recklessly destroy. If much of this is true, which I have no doubt that it is, it will take YEARS to clean up the lines again. 

This is what happens when someone starts to "lose it" and there is no governing body to step in. Florence has been coasting on a past reputation which has not been deserved for years. My initial reason for writing my post was to alert others about the dangers of the Graphic line, and I am troubled to know that we were only the tip of the iceberg. I have to say that even our vet would not touch the subject but he said that when you breed for tails, and the right shape of the eyes, that you're going down a slippery sloap. We say that when your dogs all look like clones, it's either a sci-fi film or a Florence Graham dog. 

We are still in such horrible pain about the loss of our beloved Annabelle. There is still not a day that goes by where tears are not shed over her loss at such a young age. She had a life full of health problems. 

Annabelle was held back for show for some time and we did not get her until she was approximately 6 months old. We could tell that she was previously abused and always said so. While she did not cower, she was very nervous and we found out later that Florence's handler had a drug and drinking problem and kept the dogs kenneled constantly unless they were being worked with. 

When we first met Annabelle, she bolted from that kennel as fast as possible and would not stop licking us because she'd been so starved for attention and love. It was obvious that she did not respond to Florence, but she loved us. She jumped into our arms and would not let go. Even if we knew at the time that she would have all these health problems, we still would have rescued her from that place, if only to give her a happy life. That she truly had because we adored her. There is no doubt that she breeds heartbreak for the people who buy her dogs. Very sad indeed. We have sadly come to the conclusion that her business is now just build primarily on greed and ego. To support that claim, I will say that the very last time we visited her, every single pup she had at the time, and there were quite a few, had to "go to a show home." We're glad we didn't take any of them looking back. That was the last time we'd be visiting Florence Graham. 

We now work with two extraordinary breeders, both of whom are incredibly responsible and care greatly about the health and happiness of their dogs. We deeply feel concern and sorrow for everyone who has had a Graphic dog that has been ill and has had a life marred with health problems. I fear that it's all about money now with Florence. I am truly sorry for her health problems, but one thing has nothing to do with another. She stayed too long at the fair and didn't bow out when the time was right. When somebody truly believes that they can rewrite the laws of genetics, there is a BIG problem. My wish is that the AKC would step in and end her breeding program, but sadly that is not likely to happen. The only good thing that I can say is that she sent us to her vet who is the best vet we've ever had. Considering the health of her dogs, she probably needs a vet of that caliber too.


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## Lovapoodle

I want to say how sorry I am for your loss of your precious Annabelle.....it's heartbreaking. We cry every day over Harley. I would urge you to write the AKC.....and the Poodle club of America......

You are right on all counts. Best to you......


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## Lene

This is incredibly sad... Doesn't this woman get any help?


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## 3dogs

Have you sent all your health issues to PHR? You should also list your dogs Pedigree as well on Poodle Pedigree with all the health issues. The more info out there about these lines then people will start to stop buying puppies from these lines. With no business then hopefully the production will stop.


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## Apres Argent

3dogs said:


> Have you sent all your health issues to PHR? You should also list your dogs Pedigree as well on Poodle Pedigree with all the health issues. The more info out there about these lines then people will start to stop buying puppies from these lines. With no business then hopefully the production will stop.


Thank you! Truly pet owners have a responsibility to report health issues. This is invaluable to people who breed and also to researchers that are looking for answers. Please list the problems with PHR! Attached is a very easy to use form. 

http://www.poodlehealthregistry.org/docs/PHR_RegistrationForm_0212.pdf


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## sylvia43

*graphic poodles*

i live on the east coast and i can tell you from very personal experience that graphic poodles have infected the lines here, too. indeed, it appears that ms. graham is working off of her formerly good reputation and her poodles have created a mess of aggressive and addisonian dogs here.

older breeders, who bred lovely dogs 25 or 30 years ago, are living in the past. many should have stopped a while back. the graphic lines that i know about came east about 15 years ago and many, many of the dogs have lived short lives, have addison's, allergy problems and aggressive temperaments. the dogs all seem to be pretty, smart, affectionate with their owners--but not of strong health and hell on wheels around other dogs.

i understand the inability of people in their 80s to easily slip into denial. breeders who have devoted their lives to this, and who at one time bred first rate dogs, have difficulty facing the reality about their kennel's weaknesses. it's a shame for all of us who acquire these dogs. we do our best to choose healthy, well adjusted ones but some of these characteristics are invisible when we go to pick out our pups.

thankfully, this forum is here to trumpet the truth. thank you big roo, for weighing in.


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## Lovapoodle

*clarification......*

I have to clarify or re-state my point. Our dog who was sired by a Graphic silver was a GREAT dog. Yes, he had some health issues (bronchitis, torsion), but he was an ANGEL of a dog. And none of his health issues were typical genetic poodle problems. He had good hips, good eyes, no Addisons. No skin problems. He was supernaturally wonderful, sweet, gentle, loving, playful, smart and silly. And he was gorgeous. He was as good as a poodle gets. He lived what I consider a good run for a large poodle--11 1/2. So I cannot agree that her dogs are "hell on wheels". The dogs we met at her place were super sweet and beautiful.

My problem with Florence's situation is that she is line breeding, increasing the chance that weaknesses will be passed on. She's breeding for phenotype, when she should be also breeding for genotype. and her place is dirty and unkempt, and the poodle pups aren't being socialized enough from what i saw. like i said, i'm not sure if the pups live there or if she brought them from some co-owner's residence so that she could show them to us. and one of the pups was very shy and did not want to be held. 

so......i just want to be clear as to what MY experience has been. our graphic poodle, born in late 2001 was a gift from the heavens. we couldn't have wished for a better friend and family member.


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## Lovapoodle

*thank you....*

by the way, thank you for the information about the poodle health registry!!


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## gr8pdls

*Terrible thread - slanderous*

This is a terible thread! It borders on slanderous! TheBigRoo starts by saying she likes the Breeder but then goes on to rip her up one side and down the other. TheBigRoo obviously has an axe to grind. 

Lovapoodle enjoys the Breeder's hospitality one day and cruxifies her the next. If Lovapoodle was so concerned about the conditions, she should have taken them up with the breeder, not post a review of the lady's house on-line.

It seems that most of the people on this forum don't have a clue about what it takes to breed a Poodle. Until you walk the walk ... keep your mouth shut. Concern about line-breeding? Just because the dog's name starts with a particular kennel doesn't necessarily mean its line-bred. And, who's to say line-breeding is such an evil. Consider a pack of wolves. Do you really think that dominate male cares if he's mating his daughter or mother? 

Just so you know, I have never met the breeder in question, never seen her silver Poodles in person, and in fact never been in California. On principle, I feel compelled to reply.

Gossip is a sin. What happened in this thread reminds me of the feather pillow in the wind parable. It's no wonder so many breeders don't encourage visits or put their names on their websites. The people that jumped on the bandwagen to besmirch this woman's reputation should be ashamed. 

This thread is what's wrong with open forums. Disgusting. This whole thread should be removed.


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## outwest

Thank goodness there are dedicated breeders right now trying very hard to rid the standard poodle of some of the genetic issues they have faced. I do believe you can have a show quality standard poodle who is also very healthy. I know that is what some of the breeders on the forum are striving for. Breeders can not get too greedy. When you outcross and breed for healthy, you WILL get much more variety.You may not get a show dog in any particular litter, but you will get one or two now and again. I hope they all keep in mind that the bulk of their lovely puppies will be going to pet homes. Take those few show dogs and continue! 
It can be done!


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## outwest

gr8pdls said:


> This is a terible thread! It borders on slanderous! TheBigRoo starts by saying she likes the Breeder but then goes on to rip her up one side and down the other. TheBigRoo obviously has an axe to grind.
> 
> Lovapoodle enjoys the Breeder's hospitality one day and cruxifies her the next. If Lovapoodle was so concerned about the conditions, she should have taken them up with the breeder, not post a review of the lady's house on-line.
> 
> It seems that most of the people on this forum don't have a clue about what it takes to breed a Poodle. Until you walk the walk ... keep your mouth shut. Concern about line-breeding? Just because the dog's name starts with a particular kennel doesn't necessarily mean its line-bred. And, who's to say line-breeding is such an evil. Consider a pack of wolves. Do you really think that dominate male cares if he's mating his daughter or mother?
> 
> Just so you know, I have never met the breeder in question, never seen her silver Poodles in person, and in fact never been in California. On principle, I feel compelled to reply.
> 
> Gossip is a sin. What happened in this thread reminds me of the feather pillow in the wind parable. It's no wonder so many breeders don't encourage visits or put their names on their websites. The people that jumped on the bandwagen to besmirch this woman's reputation should be ashamed.
> 
> This thread is what's wrong with open forums. Disgusting. This whole thread should be removed.


Mmmmm...I don't know that it should be removed. 
Health, health, health!! It can not be overstated in standard poodles! People must talk openly about health issues. I believe people have a right to warn others about what they are concerned about. The original poster had two poodles and both had health issues. I think it is okay for them to tell others. 

There are people very happy with their poodles from this person. People can also chime in on positive aspects and I have read that here, but not a lot and not about health. I wonder why? 

People have issues with the breeder of my dogs at times. I don't agree with some of those concerns. I still chose my second standard from the same breeder. It isn't like I couldn't have gone elsewhere. I certainly knew the issues people had with them when I chose to return. I know I made the right decision and am very, very happy with both my dogs. Open discussion is very important and people must think for themselves. 

btw:
I do think you can get a very shy puppy in a litter for no particular reason. Those puppies need extra socialization. Maybe they were bullied by the rest of the litter. You don't always know why one puppy is anxious and shy. I also know that the more inbred a dog is, the more likely to develop personality issues. That said, the three poodles I met from this breeder all had calm personalities and friendly ones, not aggressive or shy.


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## Lovapoodle

I enjoyed the breeder's hospitality" but did NOT enjoy seeing the condition of her home and the life the puppies were leading. This thread is not "slanderous". It's educational. If you think it's easy to say these things, you're wrong. I had no idea that I would find what I found during my visit. This was the owner of the sire of my beloved dog, and I was so excited to see her operation and meet her. She had a great reputation....for a while. I went with hope, and I left with deep sorrow. I understood why my dog had life long health issues. And I understood why the actual breeder of my dog (owner of the mom) cut off contact with me when I alerted her to the health concerns that appeared at 5 months of age. These unscrupulous breeders are more concerned with their reputation than the dogs.....or the families who love them. If you haven't seen or known or been to this breeder, or seen her puppies, or nursed a sick dog that her lines were involved with, then you don't have a real basis for challenging the first hand information on this thread. Since the AKC doesn't govern or control or license these breeders, there are practices at play that should not be part of the Standard Poodle breed. And thank goodness for forums where we can share our experiences and stories. 

There are breeders out there who take their genetics and the strengthening of the breed very seriously. They should be commended. And those who are irresponsible and don't care about genetics should be discouraged from continuing to breed these magnificent animals. 

That's it.


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## Lovapoodle

*one more thing....*

information is not a sin. this is information. and there is no other way to stop irresponsible breeding except getting the word out.


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## Chagall's mom

*gr8pdls*: It's evident this thread has distressed you deeply. FWIW, I read it to be a sincere effort to share information, without any malice. You seem to be a very principled individual and spoo breeder. I enjoy visiting your Gladystar Poodles website. I cannot begin to imagine either the rigors or heartaches of being a breeder, but then again there are the rewards! I myself have bristled at times when reading unflattering posts about other breeders, but _truly _I don't think the intent here is to do other than give first person accounts and to encourage others to look carefully at this, and by extension, all breeders. You have every right to voice your opinion, of course. And if you think the thread should be reviewed by the mod, you can request that, as you likely know being a member of several years standing. It's my view this "conversation" is appropriate and within bounds. Anyway, just my 2cents.eace2:


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## onlypoodles4me

Stating personal experiences are not slander. People who have met her and been to her home are entitled to their opinion. I have heard much more negative things about her dogs but because I have not met said dogs don't feel the need to repeat the stories.
I groom a dog from her, shes 12 years old now. She has had good health.
She is however painfully shy. I am the only one who has groomed her from puppyhood. She came from the breeder afraid to cross thresholds, afraid of stairs, afraid of everything. They spent a lot of money on trainers trying to do everything to bring her out of her shell, and the dog to this day is still extremely shy. This is fact.
I have a family member who worked with Florence grooming her dogs, she spent time with her and her dogs at her home. She said some were lovely. She also said she had too many puppies to socialize all of them properly.
I don't think any of this is bashing. It is what it is.


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## TheBigRoo

gr8pdls said:


> This is a terible thread! It borders on slanderous! TheBigRoo starts by saying she likes the Breeder but then goes on to rip her up one side and down the other. TheBigRoo obviously has an axe to grind.
> 
> Lovapoodle enjoys the Breeder's hospitality one day and cruxifies her the next. If Lovapoodle was so concerned about the conditions, she should have taken them up with the breeder, not post a review of the lady's house on-line.
> 
> It seems that most of the people on this forum don't have a clue about what it takes to breed a Poodle. Until you walk the walk ... keep your mouth shut. Concern about line-breeding? Just because the dog's name starts with a particular kennel doesn't necessarily mean its line-bred. And, who's to say line-breeding is such an evil. Consider a pack of wolves. Do you really think that dominate male cares if he's mating his daughter or mother?
> 
> Just so you know, I have never met the breeder in question, never seen her silver Poodles in person, and in fact never been in California. On principle, I feel compelled to reply.
> 
> Gossip is a sin. What happened in this thread reminds me of the feather pillow in the wind parable. It's no wonder so many breeders don't encourage visits or put their names on their websites. The people that jumped on the bandwagen to besmirch this woman's reputation should be ashamed.
> 
> This thread is what's wrong with open forums. Disgusting. This whole thread should be removed.


gr8pdls, thank you for your honesty and your comments. That said, I feel it is my duty to stand up for my thread and the others who have written in. My intention when creating this thread was not to cause a flame war by any means. Every post I make on this forum is well thought out and often times probably longer than it should be because I have a lot to say and I love communicating with the community. As I mentioned previously, I can only judge the breeder based on my own experiences. That doesn't make me wrong, vicious, or sinful by any means. I did not mention anything about my experiences that wasn't true and there have been other forum members who have corroborated. I also don't understand why you'd call this thread slanderous. If that were true, it would be libelous, not slanderous. Libel is defamation by printed word. Slander is the same but spoken. Neither is true in this case.

When Lovapoodle mentioned that she appreciated the hospitality but not the conditions of the breeder's environment, that was hardly cruxifiction. She was being honest in her opinions of her excitement to finally see the Graphic environment but was unpleasantly surprised by the disorganization and apparent lack of care around her breeding program at the time. Do you expect people to lie about their experiences for the sake of keeping a reputation going even though they've experienced something that's had a negative impact on them? That would be a lot to expect out of anyone. 

I just lost a Graphic poodle of 6 years to both Addisons Disease and an extremely progressive form of cancer of the mouth. I don't know much about the intricacies of biology, genetics, and what causes what, but I can tell you that our Annabelle was not a healthy girl from the start. I'm not the only one who's had these types of experiences with the Graphic line and it was very difficult to not only go through such an ordeal, but to also share it and create this posting as a result. I do not throw libelous statements at people and I don't slander either. Just because I'm not a breeder does NOT mean that I'm not aware of what can happen and how decisions are made. It was very insulting of you to try and silence anyone on this forum simply because they're not technically a breeder. I can tell you from experience that there are LOTS of so called "breeders" out there who probably have much less sense than many of the people on this forum. Additionally, that caliber of "breeder" should be reported to the AKC. I'm not mentioning names, I'm simply stating how I feel. 

Even without having been a breeder myself, I know A LOT of what it takes to do so, starting with healthy, well adjusted, virtually non-related animals to keep the lines clear as a good start. If you feel that line breeding is okay, that's your prerogative. I happen to disagree strongly with such a practice and I've spoken to a number of breeders who feel the same way. 

There is evidence out there of the issues with graphic pedigrees and I'm sure others as well. I'm not saying all Graphic poodles are bad. I mentioned numerous times what wonderful personalities many of them have. However, all you have to do is visit the PHR database and look at the pedigrees in detail to see where the problems arise. Don't ever tell me or insinuate that I don't do my homework! Also, you're more than welcome to see my vet bills along with all the comments our vets have made during the process of trying to make our girl better.

To your comment about wolves, I don't think you would consider yourself an expert in wild wolf population behavior or ecology. Nor do I. That said, I happen to have a very special place in my heart for those creatures. Although incest behavior is not impossible in wolf packs and probably does occur from time to time, it is generally avoided naturally so that the genetic pool is not contaminated or affected by unforeseen consequences (i.e. retardation, major heath problems, birth deformities) and other things of that nature that would stop effective population thriving which is most likely Mother Nature's way of weeding out incestuous actions.

If you've never met the breeder, never seen her house, never met one of her poodles let alone owned one, then you are still entitled to your opinion, yes. But, you have no right to attack my thread and call me a sinner because I'm sharing my thoughts and experiences with a breeder that I HAVE seen, visited, and from whom I've purchased poodles who have had health problems. What gives you the right to silence people who share their feelings and experiences?! THAT is something which I see as being wrong with the world and forums where valid opinions are stepped on or flamed because it sheds light and experienced truth on a situation.

I could say that I'm sorry if I offended you, but I really don't see what the point in that would be considering that I posted this thread knowing full well that it was controversial and potentially intense but NOT wrong. I also feel that I have the right to share my experiences. Also, I didn't bring this topic up lightly so libel anyone. It was VERY hard to write about this and I grappled with what to say for a long time. That said, I pointed out a number of things that I did and still do like about Graphic dogs, but my point is that the breeder's reputation is not truly what it used to be and innocent creatures are being born and going to loving families with potential, very early heartbreaks due to poor breeding practices. I don't want to see that happen to this breed anymore than you do.

Finally, thank you again to Chagall's Mom, Loveapoodle, and outwest for your comments and support. Chagall's Mom is right about my original intent in this post. I still feel it's the right thing to do.


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## cedwa

Hello, and thank you for your post on Florence Graham, Graphic Standards. It is true, Florence has a back of breeding sweet, attentive, easy to train and fun loving companions. Our first poodle was Madison (Madi), a beautiful Silver from Florence. He was frankly, stunning, and we were stopped all the time because people wanted to have a picture with him. Not us, just Madi and them. We took him fly fishing, and he picked up sighting feeding fish. What a hoot he was on a river, "their over here mom!" was his bark. Anyway, he was a constant companion to us unless we flew away on a vacation. He always seemed to have a tender stomach, and when he was 7 he developed Prostate Cancer, which is not very successful for surgery in dogs. We did radiation, which helped but then Chemo, and that kinda pushed his system to the brink and he developed Bloat suddenly and we had to let him go. 
He was 8, Heartbreaking. 
We sent an email to Florence to let her know about Madison's prostate cancer, not to complain, but thought she should know for her breeding. 
She ignored our email.
Even with the tragic illness, and no interest or sympathy whatsoever from the breeder, we had a wonderful experience with our first poodle. We basically noted that we would not buy another Graphic Standard.
Since we had been involved in Poodle Day in Carmel, we let NorCal know we might be looking for another Poodle in a few months. But before we were ready, we were given the opportunity to adopt a 4 year old standard in a private adoption. NorCal told us he was a Graphic Standard, and that was almost a show stopper, but we agreed to meet with the owner. The 4 yr old Carlisle was a total goofball and a little wild, but he was also really sweet and when he sat on my foot at the dog park, I fell for him. We were uncertain about how he would adjust, but we kept close to him, did a little training for a week or two and he fit right in. He made us laugh every day and that was much needed. We had such fun with him, and he was ready to go with us anytime, anywhere. Not interested in our fishing, but when we could find a place for him to run free, he was an amazing runner and a joy to watch. As both of our poodles were, they were part of our whole family, always welcome. Carlisle developed Anal Sack Carcinoma at 8. We opted for surgery because it was an early diagnosis. He came through the surgery and we had 3.5 more years with him as a seemingly healthy animal. We lost him last February and we are still grieving. he was a remarkable boy, and greatly missed. 
Decided to take a break for a while, maybe another poodle in our future, but not right away and not from Graphic Standard. Too heartbreaking for us. It's not like we have not been through heartbreaking times with other animals, but with a breeder who consistently is not concerned about health of animals they breed, no. FYI, when we were getting radiation thru Sage Vet with Madi, we met a woman who had 5 poodles from Graphic standard, and they all had cancer of various kinds, and she was there with number 5 getting cancer treatments. 
Don't let this put you off poodles, there are more breeders out there that take the health concerns of breeding more seriously. Check with NorCal Poodle rescue for their referrals. Happy dog loving. ChrisE


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## Johanna

sylvia43 said:


> *graphic poodles*
> older breeders, who bred lovely dogs 25 or 30 years ago, are living in the past. many should have stopped a while back.
> 
> i understand the inability of people in their 80s to easily slip into denial. breeders who have devoted their lives to this, and who at one time bred first rate dogs, have difficulty facing the reality about their kennel's weaknesses.


WOW! Ageism strikes again! Kindly do not assume that people in their 80s automatically become senile.


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## Carolinek

Johanna said:


> WOW! Ageism strikes again! Kindly do not assume that people in their 80s automatically become senile.


Thank you Johanna for commenting on this. Older thread, but still relevant issue. BTW, Gracie’s breeder is in her 80’s, something to be said for years of experience and wisdom too.


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## PeggyTheParti

cedwa said:


> Hello, and thank you for your post on Florence Graham, Graphic Standards. It is true, Florence has a back of breeding sweet, attentive, easy to train and fun loving companions. Our first poodle was Madison (Madi), a beautiful Silver from Florence. He was frankly, stunning, and we were stopped all the time because people wanted to have a picture with him. Not us, just Madi and them. We took him fly fishing, and he picked up sighting feeding fish. What a hoot he was on a river, "their over here mom!" was his bark. Anyway, he was a constant companion to us unless we flew away on a vacation. He always seemed to have a tender stomach, and when he was 7 he developed Prostate Cancer, which is not very successful for surgery in dogs. We did radiation, which helped but then Chemo, and that kinda pushed his system to the brink and he developed Bloat suddenly and we had to let him go.
> He was 8, Heartbreaking.
> We sent an email to Florence to let her know about Madison's prostate cancer, not to complain, but thought she should know for her breeding.
> She ignored our email.
> Even with the tragic illness, and no interest or sympathy whatsoever from the breeder, we had a wonderful experience with our first poodle. We basically noted that we would not buy another Graphic Standard.
> Since we had been involved in Poodle Day in Carmel, we let NorCal know we might be looking for another Poodle in a few months. But before we were ready, we were given the opportunity to adopt a 4 year old standard in a private adoption. NorCal told us he was a Graphic Standard, and that was almost a show stopper, but we agreed to meet with the owner. The 4 yr old Carlisle was a total goofball and a little wild, but he was also really sweet and when he sat on my foot at the dog park, I fell for him. We were uncertain about how he would adjust, but we kept close to him, did a little training for a week or two and he fit right in. He made us laugh every day and that was much needed. We had such fun with him, and he was ready to go with us anytime, anywhere. Not interested in our fishing, but when we could find a place for him to run free, he was an amazing runner and a joy to watch. As both of our poodles were, they were part of our whole family, always welcome. Carlisle developed Anal Sack Carcinoma at 8. We opted for surgery because it was an early diagnosis. He came through the surgery and we had 3.5 more years with him as a seemingly healthy animal. We lost him last February and we are still grieving. he was a remarkable boy, and greatly missed.
> Decided to take a break for a while, maybe another poodle in our future, but not right away and not from Graphic Standard. Too heartbreaking for us. It's not like we have not been through heartbreaking times with other animals, but with a breeder who consistently is not concerned about health of animals they breed, no. FYI, when we were getting radiation thru Sage Vet with Madi, we met a woman who had 5 poodles from Graphic standard, and they all had cancer of various kinds, and she was there with number 5 getting cancer treatments.
> Don't let this put you off poodles, there are more breeders out there that take the health concerns of breeding more seriously. Check with NorCal Poodle rescue for their referrals. Happy dog loving. ChrisE


Welcome back to the forum, @cedwa. Thank you for sharing your experience and your boys with us. Best wishes to you as you navigate your grief.


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## PeggyTheParti

Johanna said:


> WOW! Ageism strikes again! Kindly do not assume that people in their 80s automatically become senile.


Looks like that member’s not been back to the forum since 2013, but a good reminder for the rest of us. Thanks, @Johanna.

On that note, I’m going to close this thread now. I think it’s run its course. But a conversation about ageism in breeding would be an interesting one. Maybe worthy of its own thread?


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