# Springbrook puppies? Any experience or insight?



## Xmb (Oct 21, 2020)

Looking for a red mini in Florida or southeast USA.
Found AKC Red Miniature Poodle | Florida | SpringBrookPoodle
And was wondering if anyone had any experience with them or if you have any insight from the website if they look like quality breeders?

Thank you.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome

Until (if) someone drops by who has had personal experience, or goes and views the website to take a look I have a couple of things to offer.

First would be to do a search of PF to see if you get any hits of threads with the breeders name.

Second, not knowing your experience with choosing breeders, I'll drop in my personal criteria checklist for review. One thing I'm focusing on more lately is the contract/health guarantee/warranty to see if I fully understand the terms, would be able to live with them, and ask the breeder why (if) certain testable conditions of the breeding parents are ruled out from coverage.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these criteria are important in choosing a conscientious breeder and to get a wellbred puppy to share life with for many years to come.

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety, do the health testing of their breeding dogs then breed thoughtfully.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program 
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup


Dog Search


! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"


! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi and Welcome
> 
> Until (if) someone drops by who has had personal experience, or goes and views the website to take a look I have a couple of things to offer.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this comprehensive list. We are hoping for a minimum of 10-12 more years with our Charlie, but I have a friend who might benefit from this list

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This is what I'm finding so far starting from the website. After looking over the contract, I next look for information on the sires and dams, starting there for registered names and proof of health testing.

They list some.
SpringBrookPoodle, Florida, SpringBrookPoodle
From there I select the PawPrint seal to find out which dog it's for
Paw Print Pedigrees - Details for Roman
Here I see an owner/breeder (?) name at top and a genetic poodle panel

I select the name at top and get taken to this page, where if I were looking for myself, I'd just stop.
Paw Print Pedigrees - Breeder Profile
From there, I select the kennel website which is different from Springbrook
Puppies Doodles Poodles | Shaggy Chic Country Kennels | United States

Back to health testing for a minute...
I select the (registered?) name of Roman and go to the OFA site to see if the rest of the health testing is published there.
There is none so we're missing info on hips. patella's and eyes at a minimum

*Miniature Minimum Testing Criteria*
prcd Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA testing from an approved laboratory
Eye clearance by the Companion Animal Eye Registry (CAER)
Hip Dysplasia evaluation from an approved agency
Patellar Luxation OFA evaluation

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?quicksearch=Sir Red Roman Of Spring Brook

I go back to Springbrook and select another poodle which turns out to be Piper. Same PawPrint panel but Piper is a bit too young to breed just yet so I select the owner/breeder (?) name at the top
Paw Print Pedigrees - Breeder Profile
I find three total, select Ginger's registered (?) name and go to OFA with the same results as Roman, no info listed.
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?quicksearch=Sweet Ginger Spice Of Springbrook

I personally wouldn't go any further with this breeder because I choose not to support cross breeding.
If you choose to proceed, I'd suggest to start by asking questions about the health testing. The PawPrint panel is helpful but is not accompanied so far as I can see by the OFA testing. If you've reviewed the health resources in this list, you'll see what I'm referring to.









🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Charlie's Person said:


> Thank you for this comprehensive list. We are hoping for a minimum of 10-12 more years with our Charlie, but I have a friend who might benefit from this list
> 
> Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


??? I'm confused. I'm replying to this member quoted below. 
(I also hope for you all and Charlie to have many more wonderful years together!)



Xmb said:


> Looking for a red mini in Florida or southeast USA.
> Found AKC Red Miniature Poodle | Florida | SpringBrookPoodle
> And was wondering if anyone had any experience with them or if you have any insight from the website if they look like quality breeders?
> 
> Thank you.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Based on what I see on the website, I would not support this breeder. I looked up some of the registered names of their dogs and found these:

Sir Red Roman Of Spring Brook 
Wild in Red Renee of Spring Brook
Sweet Ginger Spice Of Springbrook

When I googled Roman's registered name I see that his and Renee's offspring "Hilltop Pups Tate Leo" is part of a doodle breeding program. A reputable poodle breeder would never sell one of their dogs to a doodle breeder so this is a red flag to me.

In addition, although they have completed genetic testing through PawPrint, but I find no evidence of orthopedic evaluation. They are not listed on OFA and I do not see it mentioned on their website. This is a huge red flag for me. Patellar luxation is a big issue with miniature and toy poodles and to not have parents tested for it is not good. In addition, to make matters worse, they specifically state in their contract that they do not offer any guarantees against the puppy developing patellar luxation. Which says everything I need to hear on that matter.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Charlie's Person said:


> Thank you for this comprehensive list. We are hoping for a minimum of 10-12 more years with our Charlie, but I have a friend who might benefit from this list
> 
> Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


I think I'm catching up now lol. I read your reply as also being puzzled, as if threads had crossed somehow.


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

Xmb said:


> Looking for a red mini in Florida or southeast USA.
> Found AKC Red Miniature Poodle | Florida | SpringBrookPoodle
> And was wondering if anyone had any experience with them or if you have any insight from the website if they look like quality breeders?
> 
> Thank you.


We got a Poodle form Spring Brook Poodles. I would love to hear others experience. Our poodle is so adorable and we love him, BUT he has a serious mean streak. We are on our second trainer to try to help us control his unpredictable outbreaks. Our trainer believes it is partially nature vs nurture. He had a mean streak when we first got him and the breeder was extremely defensive. Yet they also said, when we asked to meet the parents, "you can, but they don't know you so I don't know how they will react". Its been 5 months since this post, so I don't know what you decided to do, but as much as we love our dog, we send him away when our grandkids visit, and we have both been bit.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome to PF!

I'm not able to help with any personal experience with Spring Brook, and the odds are low that many other currently active members will have any either.

Until/unless someone with experience does drop by, try a Search of PF. Use the Advanced Search, keyword "Spring Brook" and set the parameters to All Forums, and search by Date.

For a different question, have either of the trainers you've worked with been CPDT certified? There's rigorous training for the certification process and the method used is Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive.
My reason for asking is that there's no regulatory or governing body for "licensing" as one might expect. The CPDT certification is an assurance that the person has undergone and passed "rigorous exams to demonstrate mastery of humane, science-based dog training practices."

The website is here.

Your dog may not be so much "mean" as very insecure and unsure. How old is your boy and has this behavior been from the time he came home with you?


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi and Welcome to PF!
> 
> I'm not able to help with any personal experience with Spring Brook, and the odds are low that many other currently active members will have any either.
> 
> ...


I agree - he is probably not so much mean as insecure and generally fearful or anxious. He has been like this from about 10 weeks old. I reached out to our breeder and she was shocked but basically blamed us for giving him run of the house. My first bite was reaching for him when he was resting under my husband's clothes in the closet. That was at about 9-10 weeks. We got him at 8 weeks. He threw up in the car repeatedly on the way home. He loves car rides, but he is very anxious, like a kid on a rollercoaster.

Regarding the trainers, I honestly am not sure if if they are certified. Probably not. They aren't listed on the website you provided. I did look for certified behaviorists via another website I was given, but didn't have much luck finding anyone near us. 

We started with Barkbusters. Didn't get the results we wanted, but we also were less than 50% compliant with all of the recommended techniques. Our dog is generally well behaved. But we have investigated 5 different trainers, some part of a franchise. One trains service dogs and came highly recommended by our vet. She was too busy to help, so she referred us to a colleague and that is who we settled on. She is very humane and seems very knowledgeable. There are dozens of ribbons and certificates on her walls, though I did not look closely at them. Do you know if all CPDT certified trainers are listed on the website, or do they have to pay to get their name on there? The ones near us on the link you provided seem to only offer basic classes (or board and train, and I really don't want that), and I think we need more than that. The trainer we hired is focused on gaining more trust and also a better hierarchy so the dog isn't the boss. None of this is using ecollars, like the majority of the others used. I hope she is as good as her reputation, certification or not. She has been training for decades. We are committed for 4 weeks, so we will go through with this, but if we need more, I will call some of the ones on the certification list to see if they do consultations for our situation.

Thank you so much for your reply and input! We love our dog, he is 95% awesome and 5% vicious. We hope we figure out how to settle him down to get that 5% under control.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

JK Florida said:


> We love our dog, he is 95% awesome and 5% vicious. We hope we figure out how to settle him down to get that 5% under control.


Just an insight. You should change your frame of mind because seeing this little guy as « vicious » is not helping. Dogs aren’t vicious, they react to out energy, especially fearful dogs. Once you learn how to make the appropriate changes on yourself and how you deal with him, he won’t have to bite anymore. Change the momentum : the responsability is entirely on you. Not him.

I wish you great success.


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

Dechi said:


> Just an insight. You should change your frame of mind because seeing this little guy as « vicious » is not helping. Dogs aren’t vicious, they react to out energy, especially fearful dogs. Once you learn how to make the appropriate changes on yourself and how you deal with him, he won’t have to bite anymore. Change the momentum : the responsability is entirely on you. Not him.
> 
> I wish you great success.


Thanks for you wishes. Although we are trying to do everything we can to change the behavior your placing blame on us doesn’t help. WHAT to do besides what we are doing would be much more helpful than just telling us where the responsibility lies.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

How old is your boy?

I'd say the breeder was off base blaming the behavior on you, and simply because he was given free rein too young.

That said, free rein before being reliable in the home isn't recommended. Puppies need boundaries to help them keep out of puppy trouble until they know and comply with the rules of living in the human world. 

That said, I'm bothered by the trainers idea of "hierarchy" and "boss". 
That school of thought has been superceded by a more science thru continual studies of behavior, not just outmoded assumptions. Obviously, I don't have enough information to be certain that's what was meant. 

What methods or exercises is the current trainer having you use?


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> How old is your boy?
> 
> I'd say the breeder was off base blaming the behavior on you, and simply because he was given free rein too young.
> 
> ...


My words. Not the trainers because I can’t remember what words she used. Right now we are keeping the leash short on walks, teaching him to look at us with the Leave of command, teaching him out to drop things from his mouth with a treat reward and feeding him only from our hands. Taking the food out of the bowl in our lap and feeding him. We also crate him at bedtime. She saw his behavior as fear and resource guarding


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Not meaning to speak for Dechi, but it isn't blame she's referring to, but expectations. 
Moving forward, think instead in terms of him being fearful and insecure and reacting inappropriately, rather than being mean. 

The idea is to change the frame of reference from the human point of view to see things from the pups. 

That's a part of why it's helpful to know how old he is, to know how long he's been practicing this behavior. 

The idea is to look for resets of behavior and to get everyone set up for success.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

JK Florida said:


> She saw his behavior as fear and resource guarding


That sounds like the right track. 

There's several current threads on similar issues. 

It could be worth your time to do a Search for "biting" and "resource guarding". Set the Sort filter to Most Recent and you should find 2 or 3 threads within the last month or so. 

There might be some additional helpful info there and of course, we'll all help as we can.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

@JK Florida, sorry if I missed this, but how old is your poodle now?


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> That sounds like the right track.
> 
> There's several current threads on similar issues.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I have perused both of those subjects but will sort as you suggest. Most seem to relate to puppy mouthing from what I saw initially. I do understand he is afraid and anxious, but I still don’t know how to deal with it. But that’s why we are seeing a trainer!


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> @JK Florida, sorry if I missed this, but how old is your poodle now?


1-1/2 yrs


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

If you can, I would recommend reading Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. Or the Other End of the leash. The first is a faster slightly more approachable read, the second is more detailed. Both help get inside the mind of a dog.


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> @JK Florida, sorry if I missed this, but how old is your poodle now?


1-1/2 years old


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

If you haven't already, read "Mine!" by Jean Donaldson. Pretty short, it's the ultimate for resource guarding.
Won't necessarily help with his other anxiety issues, but it would likely be helpful in many of your day-to-day interactions.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

JK Florida said:


> We got a Poodle form Spring Brook Poodles. I would love to hear others experience. Our poodle is so adorable and we love him, BUT he has a serious mean streak. We are on our second trainer to try to help us control his unpredictable outbreaks. Our trainer believes it is partially nature vs nurture. He had a mean streak when we first got him and the breeder was extremely defensive. Yet they also said, when we asked to meet the parents, "you can, but they don't know you so I don't know how they will react". Its been 5 months since this post, so I don't know what you decided to do, but as much as we love our dog, we send him away when our grandkids visit, and we have both been bit.



I just skimmed along once you joined this discussion JK Florida. I am sorry to see that your dog is causing problems/himself also probably suffering psychologically. No one is to blame at this point and I feel your frustration but I think you can do things to improve the situation. I would suggest finding a certified behaviorist. You can look for one through ccpdt.org where there is a search tool for trainers and behaviorist who has qualifications that are rigorous to the tasks they work on. They will be able to analyze the sources of your dog's anxieties and the troubling results of his nervous personality. While you may not ever be able to fix everything a CBCC-KA should be able to give you training strategies to help everyone enjoy their lives to the fullest extent possible. I wish you success.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

JK Florida said:


> 1-1/2 years old


Our poodle is 22 months, and we’re consulting remotely with a behaviourist on resource guarding. I was finding some of the more common guidance to be antagonizing for her, but following a personalized plan has been nothing but positive.


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

I just want to give everyone an update. The trainer the vet recommended seemed very compassionate and experienced. However, she didn't think Bear was a reactive dog, and gave us tips to reduce resource guarding. I truly think he just has impulse control issues. My husband was bit again today. This time, they were sitting on the couch, relaxing and Bear was licking something, leaning against my husband, and my husband put his arm around him and in an instant, Bear turned and bit him on the hand. Bear was initially just shocked, it seemed, and in a bit of a defensive position, but followed my commands without hesitation as I calmly escorted him without touching, into a room with a door. He stayed there for about 20 mins and when I got him out, he was ears down, looking across the room at my husband, hesitantly wagging his tail, waiting to be acknowledged. When he was not, Bear came and tried to get my attention and affection, which I gave some and talked calmly to him, but told him to stay off and he laid by my feet. He is a good sweet puppy with this impulsive reaction. The things we are doing don't seem like they will help. So distressing.


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Our poodle is 22 months, and we’re consulting remotely with a behaviourist on resource guarding. I was finding some of the more common guidance to be antagonizing for her, but following a personalized plan has been nothing but positive.


Can tell me who you are consulting with? I have not been able to find many behaviorists in our area


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

JK Florida said:


> Can tell me who you are consulting with? I have not been able to find many behaviorists in our area


Sure. I’ll send you a message.


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## macki (Jun 20, 2021)

JK Florida said:


> We got a Poodle form Spring Brook Poodles. I would love to hear others experience. Our poodle is so adorable and we love him, BUT he has a serious mean streak. We are on our second trainer to try to help us control his unpredictable outbreaks. Our trainer believes it is partially nature vs nurture. He had a mean streak when we first got him and the breeder was extremely defensive. Yet they also said, when we asked to meet the parents, "you can, but they don't know you so I don't know how they will react". Its been 5 months since this post, so I don't know what you decided to do, but as much as we love our dog, we send him away when our grandkids visit, and we have both been bit.


I also got a mini poodle from them ... picked him up at their house was never shown the parents. He also has a very nasty streak and i'm sure he would bite, i have just been faster than him . I was going to call Terri but had the feeling she would not be helpful! she wasn't that nice to deal with


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## macki (Jun 20, 2021)

JK Florida said:


> We got a Poodle form Spring Brook Poodles. I would love to hear others experience. Our poodle is so adorable and we love him, BUT he has a serious mean streak. We are on our second trainer to try to help us control his unpredictable outbreaks. Our trainer believes it is partially nature vs nurture. He had a mean streak when we first got him and the breeder was extremely defensive. Yet they also said, when we asked to meet the parents, "you can, but they don't know you so I don't know how they will react". Its been 5 months since this post, so I don't know what you decided to do, but as much as we love our dog, we send him away when our grandkids visit, and we have both been bit.


JK just read thru some of the comments, and wanted to let you know that my dog is not insecure or timid. Has been to puppy classes A & B, beginner 1 & 2 class, and is in Novice obedience and Flyball now. There is nothing shy about him,but he does have a nasty streak ! i have looked it up several times and one site said , a dog that is aggressive when you try to make them comply or is resource guarding is a dominate dog. Not sure what to do with him either. I will tell you that he was in a crate at night and was not allowed to wander freely, and was aggressive also at the same age as your puppy. His father was Roman and mother was springbrooks red hot pepper. he just got his second title He has his CGC and BCAT.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

macki said:


> a dog that is aggressive when you try to make them comply or is resource guarding is a dominate dog.


It’s far more likely that you have a very insecure dog, or a dog that doesn’t feel they’re being treated fairly.

Poodles are so smart. They will quickly learn what gets good results (from their perspective) and what doesn’t. Having resources “stolen” can be extremely stressful for a dog. For anyone, really!

Expressing this discomfort is natural. And poodles are excellent communicators.

It’s our job, as humans, to explain to our poodles that they don’t need to be stressed or anxious around us, that they can trust us not to physically coerce them or take away their treasures.


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

macki said:


> JK just read thru some of the comments, and wanted to let you know that my dog is not insecure or timid. Has been to puppy classes A & B, beginner 1 & 2 class, and is in Novice obedience and Flyball now. There is nothing shy about him,but he does have a nasty streak ! i have looked it up several times and one site said , a dog that is aggressive when you try to make them comply or is resource guarding is a dominate dog. Not sure what to do with him either. I will tell you that he was in a crate at night and was not allowed to wander freely, and was aggressive also at the same age as your puppy. His father was Roman and mother was springbrooks red hot pepper. he just got his second title He has his CGC and BCAT.


Macki,
It appears we have the exact same experience. Bear is not timid nor insecure, but I still think some of the reaction is fear. I think the Dad is part of the problem, Roman is Bear's father too. I don't see Roman on their website anymore. His Mother was Ginger. As you probably already saw, Bear resource guards and just snaps at unexpected times. We have taken him to a few classes. How old is your dog now? How is he doing? Bear also sleeps in the crate now. He protects his crate, too. It has been difficult sometimes, but its been 90% a joy. He is very cute and fun and everyone loves him. I think we are the only ones who has seen his aggression. Do you have any other advise on how to try to overcome the aggressiveness? Good to know it isn't just us!
Jeanne


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

JK Florida said:


> Can tell me who you are consulting with? I have not been able to find many behaviorists in our area


Did you have any luck working with a behaviourist?


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Although the vast majority of aggression problems are due to poor training, they can also result from lack of handling from early puppyhood or can sometimes be genetic. Some breeds are subject to a hereditary condition called "rage" that results in a dog suddenly becoming wild and vicious. It is like canine schizophrenia. I have not heard of it in poodles, but I know it was a huge problem in spring spaniels some years ago. Certainly a puppy whose parents are aggressive is more likely to become aggressive.


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Did you have any luck working with a behaviourist?





PeggyTheParti said:


> Did you have any luck working with a behaviourist?


Hi Peggy! Well, we went to one who was recommended to us by our vet...basically, anyone who meets Bear and works with him for awhile, never sees the bad behavior! I did record an episode we had and sent it to her, though. We had some private time with her and also took a group class. He did great! I think every time we do things to build trust we get just a little better. We also know to just leave him alone when he eats and when he is in his crate. We know not to give him natural bones. I tell you though, everyone I know tells me to kick him across the room! I will never do that! Every time the trainer tried to put him around other dogs, etc, he was just fine. But she did give us some tips on how to deal with his bad behavior, which I think has helped. Actually, watching some episodes of Its Me of the Dog helped me get some ideas too. The other behaviorist that is not local I just was not confident would be money well spent. I still have some local certified trainers in my back pocket to consider, if we decide to do more. I really think he just has this impulsive tendency that he just doesn't or can't control. He often behaves as if he is sorry after he bites or snaps and is left in a room alone. But if you react to him when he does it, it just escalates. I have gotten in the habit of just getting him into a room where I can close the door and leave him alone while he calms down, although I think he is on to me, as last time he followed me to the room, but would not go in! I will have to change rooms!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

JK Florida said:


> Hi Peggy! Well, we went to one who was recommended to us by our vet...basically, anyone who meets Bear and works with him for awhile, never sees the bad behavior! I did record an episode we had and sent it to her, though. We had some private time with her and also took a group class. He did great! I think every time we do things to build trust we get just a little better. We also know to just leave him alone when he eats and when he is in his crate. We know not to give him natural bones. I tell you though, everyone I know tells me to kick him across the room! I will never do that! Every time the trainer tried to put him around other dogs, etc, he was just fine. But she did give us some tips on how to deal with his bad behavior, which I think has helped. Actually, watching some episodes of Its Me of the Dog helped me get some ideas too. The other behaviorist that is not local I just was not confident would be money well spent. I still have some local certified trainers in my back pocket to consider, if we decide to do more. I really think he just has this impulsive tendency that he just doesn't or can't control. He often behaves as if he is sorry after he bites or snaps and is left in a room alone. But if you react to him when he does it, it just escalates. I have gotten in the habit of just getting him into a room where I can close the door and leave him alone while he calms down, although I think he is on to me, as last time he followed me to the room, but would not go in! I will have to change rooms!


I’m very glad you’ve not resorted to kicking him across the room! Sadly, that’s a common reaction to resource guarding and can make the problem a thousand times worse.

The behaviorist I shared with you a while back doesn’t need to see the behaviour to create a plan for you. In fact, she wouldn’t _want_ to see the behaviour. She does a detailed intake interview, creates a personalized protocol, and then goes over it with the whole household via Zoom.

We saw results much quicker than expected and have yet to require any follow-up aside from a few emails updating her on our progress.


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I’m very glad you’ve not resorted to kicking him across the room! Sadly, that’s a common reaction to resource guarding and can make the problem a thousand times worse.
> 
> The behaviorist I shared with you a while back doesn’t need to see the behaviour to create a plan for you. In fact, she wouldn’t _want_ to see the behaviour. She does a detailed intake interview, creates a personalized protocol, and then goes over it with the whole household via Zoom.
> 
> We saw results much quicker than expected and have yet to require any follow-up aside from a few emails updating her on our progress.


Going back in my notes, I had two recommendations and I contacted both via email. I don't think I ever heard back from the one you used but Synergy did respond and I just held off because I wanted to try our local person first.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

JK Florida said:


> Going back in my notes, I had two recommendations and I contacted both via email. I don't think I ever heard back from the one you used but Synergy did respond and I just held off because I wanted to try our local person first.


Totally understandable. I’d have gone local, too, if that was an option. But my #1 priority was getting a skilled behaviourist, as I believe resource guarding falls outside the realm of the average trainer.

Once we began following our personalized protocol, we kept detailed notes right down to the distance from which we tossed treats (feet _and_ inches, lol). This was really important to the process, as memory is so fallible. It’s also a good way to prevent yourself from rushing, which is easy to do.


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## macki (Jun 20, 2021)

JK Florida said:


> Macki,
> It appears we have the exact same experience. Bear is not timid nor insecure, but I still think some of the reaction is fear. I think the Dad is part of the problem, Roman is Bear's father too. I don't see Roman on their website anymore. His Mother was Ginger. As you probably already saw, Bear resource guards and just snaps at unexpected times. We have taken him to a few classes. How old is your dog now? How is he doing? Bear also sleeps in the crate now. He protects his crate, too. It has been difficult sometimes, but its been 90% a joy. He is very cute and fun and everyone loves him. I think we are the only ones who has seen his aggression. Do you have any other advise on how to try to overcome the aggressiveness? Good to know it isn't just us!
> Jeanne


Hi I didn't know that Roman wasn't on their site anymore. I will look. Red is 19 months old now and the problem hasn"t gotten any better. I wish i had an answer for you. Keep in touch! Macki


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

macki said:


> I also got a mini poodle from them ... picked him up at their house was never shown the parents. He also has a very nasty streak and i'm sure he would bite, i have just been faster than him . I was going to call Terri but had the feeling she would not be helpful! she wasn't that nice to deal with


Hi Macki - we spent the evening at Urgent Care - 6 stitches for my husbands hand. We are giving up and looking at surrender options. We are heartbroken .


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I will warn you that since your dog is a biter you might not be able to surrender your dog and you should be bitterly honest with any rescue you go to, please do not make your problem someone else's. I am 6 years in with a dog with inappropriate aggression, she takes two different medications and yes she is a biter.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Heartbreaking for all of you...

A poodle rescue may be your best bet. This is the list from the Poodle Club of America Rescue Foundation. 
Poodle Rescue (poodleclubofamericarescuefoundationinc.org)

If a website doesn't work, contact the Poodle Club of (Your City/State) and look for Rescue contact info there. If none, contact the Breeder Referral person to see if they might know where to direct you. 








PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America


On this page...Breeder Referral ContactsPCA National Breeder Members Lists Breeder Referral Contacts Breeder referral West of the Mississippi: Mary OlundPhone: (415) 457-4648Send email to: [email protected] calls from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time Breeder referral...




poodleclubofamerica.org





I'm so sorry that it's come to this.


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Heartbreaking for all of you...
> 
> A poodle rescue may be your best bet. This is the list from the Poodle Club of America Rescue Foundation.
> Poodle Rescue (poodleclubofamericarescuefoundationinc.org)
> ...


Florida poodle rescue won't take a biter


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

twyla said:


> I will warn you that since your dog is a biter you might not be able to surrender your dog and you should be bitterly honest with any rescue you go to, please do not make your problem someone else's. I am 6 years in with a dog with inappropriate aggression, she takes two different medications and yes she is a biter.


I am finding this to be the case. I would never withhold info from someone considering taking Bear.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I understand how hard this is.
I inherited a chihuahua Pomeranian mix from my mom, 7 pound ball of aggression. I was told the same thing I told you by a rescue and the kindest thing I could do would be to euthanize the dog, and I will tell you that euthanasian was on the table for a long while as I worked through all of it with this little dog, who had bitten both dogs and people, six years later she is better with a lot of medication, still can't trust her with some types treats and my poodles. 
I wish you luck this is a tough decision to make.


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

twyla said:


> I understand how hard this is.
> I inherited a chihuahua Pomeranian mix from my mom, 7 pound ball of aggression. I was told the same thing I told you by a rescue and the kindest thing I could do would be to euthanize the dog, and I will tell you that euthanasian was on the table for a long while as I worked through all of it with this little dog, who had bitten both dogs and people, six years later she is better with a lot of medication, still can't trust her with some types treats and my poodles.
> I wish you luck this is a tough decision to make.


Thank you. We have young grandchildren and we cannot take on the challenge. I hope we find someone who will.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Certified Dog Trainer Directory: Florida (ccpdt.org) 

Assuming that you're in Florida but not knowing where, this is the list of certified behavioral trainers in the state. 
Have any of these been on your radar? 
Has your vet checked for neurological issues?
Has medication been discussed?


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Certified Dog Trainer Directory: Florida (ccpdt.org)
> 
> Assuming that you're in Florida but not knowing where, this is the list of certified behavioral trainers in the state.
> Have any of these been on your radar?
> ...


None of them are within 3 hours of me. There are two veterinary behaviorists, one on each coast, who I contacted. The one two hours from me just has a recording that says they are not taking new patients. I contacted one 3+ hrs away and my plan was to work through my vet with her to see if we can come up with a plan. I hatched this plan over a month ago, but I was traveling for the past month, and Our vet was out of town this week, so we are scheduled with him on Monday, the 20th But this last incident has pushed us over the edge. In all honesty, we cannot have a dog with this persistent of an issue. We contacted our vet previously and he referred us to a trainer, who could not take us, but who referred us to another trainer. We went to that trainer many times, but That was little to no help. We also contacted a trainer with very high scoring reviews back when Bear was 4 months old, and worked with him for awhile, which also had no results. nothing seems to address this unpredictabile knee jerk impulse that is the issue.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

They may not be close enough to go to regularly but I understand that some trainers have been able to use Zoom or similar to do sessions. I know you're past wit's end but a phone call may help find alternative solutions. 

Also, re the vet, if medication hasn't been discussed, that's worth considering. Has he been seen by a neurologist to see if there's a medical reason for the behavior?

Again, I know you've been trying so hard for so long, but this pup, no fault of his own, is getting backed into a very final solution. 

That's devastating for all of you.


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## JK Florida (Mar 20, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> They may not be close enough to go to regularly but I understand that some trainers have been able to use Zoom or similar to do sessions. I know you're past wit's end but a phone call may help find alternative solutions.
> 
> Also, re the vet, if medication hasn't been discussed, that's worth considering. Has he been seen by a neurologist to see if there's a medical reason for the behavior?
> 
> ...


I have a couple of promising leads for new owners with more experience than us and without young grandkids. Thats the way we are leaning right now. We considered Zoom, and that would have been our next step but we were both very skeptical since they would never see the behavior at issue.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Here's hoping that one of your leads pans out 🤞. I know that PeggyTheParti mentioned doing some remote training with a behaviorist. If she comes back by, maybe she can describe how that worked.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> Here's hoping that one of your leads pans out 🤞. I know that PeggyTheParti mentioned doing some remote training with a behaviorist. If she comes back by, maybe she can describe how that worked.


We briefly corresponded via PM a while back.


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