# Big News on Group Stays



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I find it annoying that they haven't made it clear what they are replacing them with. Have you ever seen problems with them in trials?

A couple of the trainers were discussing the elimination of the open out-of-sight stays. Someone brought up the question - did anyone ever hear of a problem or have a dog that had a problem. Another person answered that they know of one dog that was attacked by another dog. Turns out the dog that did the attacking belonged to that horrible trainer that I went to for my first dog training class when I first got Babykins. That dog attacked two dogs in my class when people went up to the teacher after class to ask a question. I always wondered about that - I mean as a trainer she should have known to keep a distance between her dog and the student's dogs. We were in our first class and not knowledgeable at all - and clearly her dog had a problem and shouldn't have been allowed access. Hearing that her dog attacked another in open out-of-sight stay makes me happy that they are eliminating that. Although they probably could have figured out a way to make it safe - maybe tether the dogs to something that they couldn't reach another dog if they did get up and move toward another dog.

OTOH Babykins does wonderfully in the group stays so I'm disappointed that they will drop that and we'll have to work on whatever they replace it with.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Skylar I have a feeling the novice stays will still be there since the handlers are in the ring and the dogs have leashes on. It is mostly the out of sight open stays that are the issue. I have heard of dog on dog attacks where one dog has been seriously injured as a result. I have also been part of group stays that made me and Lily very ill at ease (in novice) so I could be happy enough to see them go. What happened was that one day in novice we had stays and there was a rottie in the group with us (but not next to us). That first day the handler gave a stay order from across the ring because she thought the dog was going to break the sit. The next day we had basically the same people and dogs, but there was now also a GSD who hadn't been there the first day. Both teh rottie and the GSD were intact males and apparently the handlers had seen them giving each other the evil eye a couple of times during the day. They were going to be next to each other in the groups based on catalog order. The handlers asked the judge if he would allow one of them to move to separate them in the line and he sent the rottie to the end to do so. Well Lily and I should have been at the end which meant the rottie was now to our left. During the sit the dog kept shifting his weight around (so now that we were close I knew why the handler gave the second order the day before) and snorting and the like. Clearly it made Lily very uncomfortable since she turned her head to the right to avoid eye contact with him. I stood across the ring for the longest minute of my life thinking I would never be able to save her if he got up and attacked her. To her credit, for the down stay, Lily set herself up with her back to the dog at a diagonal in front of me that made me have to move to walk around her. One dog showing its back to another is a very strong calming signal. The rottie was a lot more settled on the down. However I am sure that experience has been part of the problems I have had in utility since that and several other bad experiences with rotties have made working away from me very hard for my girl.

The details on what will be replacing the stays will come out in September (sadly not so far away, right?) so we will know pretty soon what will be the new picture for impulse control exercises.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I had my first experience with group stays in Archie's most recent class, and it was a fabulous way to test focus and impulse control. Stressful for Archie because it combines so many things he struggles with (sitting still around other dogs, working at a distance, etc), but a good exercise for sure.

I can see how it could get dicey without leashes, though. Do they ever use longlines in the ring? Or is novice done on just a 6 foot leash?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yes, impulse control is the main point to be taken from the group stays. Novice stays currently are a one minute sit and a three minute down with the 6' leash (no long lines, which could make things worse if everybody got up to run around and they got tangled) on the dog but dropped at its side. Handlers go to the opposite side of the ring and face the dogs. There will be some sort of group stay remaining in novice. It is mostly in open where the handlers go out of sight of the dogs that there have been problems and worries.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

lisasgirl said:


> I had my first experience with group stays in Archie's most recent class, and it was a fabulous way to test focus and impulse control. Stressful for Archie because it combines so many things he struggles with (sitting still around other dogs, working at a distance, etc), but a good exercise for sure.
> 
> I can see how it could get dicey without leashes, though. Do they ever use longlines in the ring? Or is novice done on just a 6 foot leash?


As Lily mentioned, the dog has a 6' leash on, but you the handler are at the other end of the ring standing still - no where near the leash. If a dog did go over to attack another dog, it could - the handlers would have to run over and be able to grab the leash to pull the dogs apart I guess? Certainly damage could be inflicted. But it is different when the handlers are not in the ring at all and no leash is on the dog to help pull them apart.

It's a shame they can't tether the dogs to something to limit their movement - say put them on a 4' leash and space them 9' apart so they can't get close even if dogs want to fight.

In the CGC and ACGC class we used long lines but not in competition obedience.

Lily, wow. One of the local vets has a rottweiler - and not just a rottweiler, but one with a broken jaw that looks awful and causes the dog to make odd noises. I've never seen the dog be anything but very quiet and well behaved............but everyone is afraid of this dog partly because of how it looks and the noises it makes just breathing. They moved all the smaller dogs into one class. I only see the dog when I come for my class and they are leaving theirs. Now I hope if I'm ever in the ring with this dog, it's safe.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

My older dog was bit during a group stay in a training class. I couldn't get her over that event and gave up on obedience. One of our club members' malamutes was bit during a trial. It took a year but he eventually was able to trial again.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

scooterscout99 said:


> My older dog was bit during a group stay in a training class. I couldn't get her over that event and gave up on obedience. One of our club members' malamutes was bit during a trial. It took a year but he eventually was able to trial again.


OMG. Did you have any sense before hand to be worried about the dog that bit your dog? Your poor dog and poor you because it breaks that bond of trust your dog has with your. I would give it up to if something like this happened.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

One of the issues regarding the groups is that they are very time consuming, so aside from having the dogs tethered to something not really demonstrating impulse control doing a very small number of dogs at a time as would be the case with the spacing you suggested Skylar would keep things going until midnight! They did increase the amount of space between dogs in one of the last revisions (when they also made the change to have leashes on for the novice stays). During the stays in a trial there is usually at least one steward in the ring in addition to the judge. They are there in case someone makes a move.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I was amused by this line: In today's culture of diverse dog training methods and philosophies that variously impact the behavior of dogs coming to trials, the AKC recognizes exhibitor concerns for stronger safety measures to protect all dogs from interference of any kind in the ring during competition...

I don't feel that strongly about this change either way. On the one hand, I think a strong stay is an extremely functional skill that should be encouraged as part of dog training. I hope that stays will continue to be a part of group classes. I also wonder if eliminating the Open stays will just encourage owners to enter trials before their dogs are ready and are under control around other dogs, which may lead to *more* problems outside of the ring. I hope not.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Verve I agree with you on hoping that people won't think they are ready too soon because they think they don't have to focus on the excellent impulse control that is so well reinforced by the groups. That said I will be happy to demonstrate my poodles' impulse control with some other kind of exercise.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

By tether I mean that the dogs have some room to get up and move around - except that they can't reach any other dog. However I realize it would be hard to develop something that can withstand a fierce dog with adrenaline rushing through it's veins.

Well I am glad they are eliminating this and hopefully replace it with something safe. My dog is sensitive and I'm sure if another dog injured her in the ring it would be the end for us.

I do see the immense value of this impulse control training when I'm in agility - my dog will remain standing or seated until commanded to do a task - where as some of the other dogs are zooming around or the teacher has to hold them with a leash or by the collar.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Skylar I think one of the side effects the AKC is looking for here is that things will move faster. The groups take a lot of time and adding having to tether each dog to some piece of equipment that would have to be set for each of them would make them take even longer. Time will tell. I could see doing some sort of honor exercise as a decent replacement, kind of like the old rally honor (although I was never too crazy about that exercise either).


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## kjgendreau (Oct 20, 2015)

I have mixed feelings about the OOS sits and downs. Solo is just starting open training. In class, he is progressing quickly; he is relaxed when I'm out of the ring and usually doesn't try to lay down during the sit and his classmates are experienced and stable dogs. So I'm confident he will master this exercise in no time. But I worry about the possibility of something happening when I'm out of the ring at a show. He won't pick a fight but he won't walk away from one either. I figured we would just go the preferred route at all breeds and regular open at specialties (local club offers obedience as well as PCA). I guess we will need to see what AKC decides, then train for that.

Kirsten and Solo
GCH U-CH URO2 Musique Moonlight Concerto CD BN RA CGC SPOT-ON


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I wish they had just dropped all of the information at once rather than leaving us wondering what to train for until September. Since novice stays are a good impulse control exercise and I have my novice students hold the leashes if their dogs are too green to stay we will keep doing them in class. Also I don't have very many people coming for open class these days, but those who do have reliable dogs, so we will keep doing the out of sights until we know what the new exercise(s) will be.


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