# What a headache!



## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Of course you can!!! Customers out there are getting more and more demanding (like my sister told me at the deli, some people insist that their meat has to be sliced from MIDDLE of the ham roll or cheese wheel, not either of the ends, and some customers insist that the counterperson wash their hands in front of them, to their satisfaction, before making their sandwich, ha,ha) but you're just asking for a service that they actually offer and advertise, and tipping generously for it. That makes you one of the nicest people they deal with, I'll bet!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Yes, you most certainly can ask them to change/redo things...you payed for a service, you should get what you want. Most groomers are more than happy to do that for you, we want to make you, the customer, happy. 
Honestly, I don't feel that you should ask for a refund, unless they just completely disregarded your instructions or hurt your dog. It sounds to me like they were just clueless, which is sad but very very common in the grooming world. However, I think you _should_ withhold a tip...or at least most of one. Don't worry, they're getting paid for the work they do, a tip is just extra.  

I'm not surprised that you had the problems you did...the big box stores (petco, petsmart) aren't known for having great groomers. Sure, there are always exceptions, ( I know/know of several great groomers that come from them.) but as a general rule, unless you just want a quick shave and bath, try to avoid them.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Absolutely you can! I agree --- and just like every other occupation there are EXCELLENT groomers, GOOD/OK groomers and BAD ones....and, unfortunately, in order to groom a poodle well you need to be in the top group!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Ya . . kind of annoying. 'Specially with them supposed to be 'the pros'.

But since yr dealing with entry level pros, it might be helpful to print off a few shots and leave them at the shop. The experienced groomers know the clips. The newer ones might need to go back to 'the pattern' periodically to remind themselves what u want.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

Thank you both! I actually got tied up taking care of some other stuff and had to send hubby to go pick up Gerry, so I'll just have to be happy with what I got, which is... interesting. I honestly don't know if it's his conformation or the cut that makes him look like this, but that boy has got a badonkadonk! He walks funny with his back legs, too because his previous owner left a cactus to get infected in his rump for who knows how long. The neck wasn't shaved, go figure. But overall, I'm pretty happy with it- it's better than it was LOL. He's rubbing his face and licking his no-no's a lot though. 

I'm probably going to try to maintain it myself here at home, so I'll try to get some pics for you all to critique (if you should be so kind to do so  ) and let me know what I should do?


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

Whoops, sorry Liljaker and Countryboy, I didn't see your posts before I replied that first time (my bad habit of leaving a bazillion tabs open for hours on end!)

So apparently my camera is MIA so all I have are camera phone pics for now. The tk, it doesn't look so much in the picture, but it looks a lot more narrow in real life. I think it's because his ears are back in the pic. And he doesn't normally have his front legs so far back- he was kind of confused what we were trying to do so he got nervous LOL and he does hold his tail up and straight normally.

His back is about 1/8" long, legs 1/2-3/4" long, and chest is about an inch long. As it grows out, what should I focus on doing? Should I try to blend the legs in better, or are they supposed to look like that with the German clip? Also, I am leaving feet unshaved. Any help and advice is much appreciated


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

It depends on the groomers.. If you took the dog to my salon, *I'm* the only one that would know what to do. It's going to be really difficult for you to find someone that actually knows the poodle clips, but when you find her (or him) and they do it well, TIP THEM VERY GOOD! Call around, ask bluntly "Do you have a groomer that know's what a german clip on a poodle is? Now german style, the clip is called the GERMAN CLIP."


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Oh man |: we posted at the same time. These are 'straight line' groomers, I bet they do straight lines on their cocker and schnauzer clips too. Yes, you're going to want to focus on blending, I wish I could show you the lines.. you actually blend the back legs from the hip bone down, avoiding the thunder thigh look and creating almost a flare? It's difficult to explain.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Mistake #1 is going with the "quick & cheap" that you went with & you got most likely what you paid for. Lesson learned. I am sure there are really great groomers in Arizona & you need to contact groomers & interview them like you would a "breeder". You ask for years grooming, specialty, do they show, continue their education, go in & look at a photo album etc... these are just the basics. Where in Arizona are you located & I will try & find a groomer on my facebook groomer group for you. You most likely though with these groomers won't have "cheap" on their price list. Luckily it will grow out & you have a few weeks to find a good groomer.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I'm sorry that worked out badly. You told them "not shorter than a 3" correct? I would flip out! They could have shaved down to a 3 all over, then asked you again about the tail and ears.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

Oi. Yeah, it's hard to find people who are going to know what the true German clip is, or even a 'pet' version (lamb with shave ears and tail). It's a style that has only recently become popular in grooming competitions in this country, which means really, the only people who are going to know about it are experienced groomers who pay attention to that stuff. And finding one of those at one of the P's is possible, just not really probable. Many of us got our start there *waves*, but most of us who want to get better leave and either start our own shops or work for someone who did. While I was there we had a few people with the wherewithal come and then swiftly go, because working for a corporation in this particular biz is really a pain.

The clip is... sort of what you asked for. I personally would have left it longer than a #7 on the body, it's my most disliked blade on a poodle because it cuts the hair right where a curl begins to turn and leaves a weird texture on many of them. He has a booty on him because most newb groomers just don't learn a thing about angulation and that the rear needs shaping with scissors, not just taking an attachment over it and that's it.

But you can work with it.  I would let the body grow for a few weeks, and scissor down that tush (or find a more experienced groomer who can), and it will look more how you want it in a month or two. As it's growing, you may be able to find a groomer who can just bathe and fluff him, and scissor the tush only for you. Just look for someone who knows what "rear angulation" means, and you'll probably be good.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks fluffyspoos! He's a fat man, so I can't really feel his hip bone, but you're talking about the one that is kind of parallel to his tail, right? Or is it where bends and touches his elbow when he curls up? 

3dogs, I know, I know LOL :shame: On my checklist is to find a (great) groomer who will be okay at the fact that I want to try to do it myself but I will take my dogs in when all my horrid-ness adds up and I need a do over LOL. I guess I'm kind of embarrassed or something that I wouldn't be taking my dogs in regularly and I really want to establish a good relationship with a good groomer. I've had my eye on one groomer, but I'm too nervous to see her if I'm not going to go back regularly. Petco, I don't feel so bad if I snub them LOL if that makes any sense?? I'll PM you with my location and tell you the groomer that I've been eyeing.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks all! I didn't expect any of the groomers to really know what a German was but I did explain it as a lamb with shaved ears a tail. Shouldn't every groomer know the lamb clip? I'm happy because at least it's a start, and with all of this knowledge flowing here, I think I might be able to work with it myself!! I'm excited haha!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

The clip (when done fully and correctly) is actually quite complicated. Here's a short clip on a black standard that's so adorable and I want to kiss his face.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

Shoot, that does look a little more complicated than I thought, but I don't care I want to try it LOL! Is it normal to scissor moving just the thumb like in the video? I've always used both parts of my hand, like in a "yak yak yak" motion. Does using just the thumb help from showing the scissor marks?


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

This is a VERY bad and rough outline of how it would look on him (with rounded feet). I don't have time to plug in my tablet and really draw this correctly lol. They didn't scissor his legs like you asked either, they just took an attachment over them. Again, the quick and cheap method.

He is a heavy boy. On him, it could be easier—just at first—to do the rear in terrier fashion, with the "line" dropped down from tuck up to the bend above the hock, just to get a shape on him, since he's big in the hips anyway. Because he's heavy, he doesn't have a lot of hip angulation showing to work with right now. But once you get some weight off him, and more hair to work with, it will be easier to make the angulation like in the video Fluffyspoos posted.

The dotted lines and arrows are all an area that is fully blended to make the short hair on the hips blend with the longer hair on the leg. In reality you shouldn't see any pattern lines with this clip at all. It's all perfectly blended.


And yes, when you scissor, only the thumb moves! If you move the fingers, you tend to get a choppier effect. The object is for only one half of the shear to move at all. It takes a lot of practice!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

lavillerose did a great lining, a good one for a pet!

I'm totally not trying to demean her lines! I've just been looking into this clip a lot lately, and I'm going to try and put what I've learned onto your dog.

So the first pic is the lines I'd add, then the second pic has illistruations on why I did those lines, let me try and explain (I'm still learning.. so here goes)

Green: You want the most chest at a 90 degree angle between the point of shoulder and elbow.
Orange: You want the back of the front leg to be level with the crest (neck hair)
Blue: You want the crest (neck) and inside of the back leg to be level, aka moving the tuck up forward
Purple: You want the tail to be between the hip and pin bones

You take the topline down really close to lengthen the neck, and you take the rear close until the knee, then create the flare.

Third picture is without the colored lines, with the outline filled in.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Oops, forgot to add, you want to be able to see an 'oval' within the chest and body of the dog in this area.










I think with your dog, who's longer in the body and has shorter legs, having fuller feet will help make him look more square.

Also, it looks like he's a bit curly still.. meaning they probably kennel dried him rather than force drying him almost, or completely the way through. I'm a Petco groomer, I know my dogs, and I force dry completely, or almost completely. Their workplace isn't an excuse for lack of knowledge, do some groomer interviews at different salons, or talk to different groomers at Petco, to find someone that really knows their stuff.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

Much better Fluffyspoos! I had something else I needed to get done earlier, and did my outline fast with only my touchpad in a couple of minutes, so needless to say, mine was pretty bad! No worries. 

I'm working Albi into this clip now as well. Hopefully between now and June I'll get it to look good and post some pics.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

Wow, what a treat to come back to! Thanks so much guys!! I am confused on a couple of things, though. I was under the impression that the chest was supposed to be flat, is that just different with the German clip, or have I been assuming this wrong? And on the blue line, I understood the part about the crest and leg being level. but what does it mean to move the tuck up forward? 

Again, thank you so much! I'm loving squinting my eyes and seeing my Gerry looking all amazing LOL! And he is definitely still curly.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Yes, you can take the chest down, probably really close close, with a #5.. I just like a giant poofy chest.. my own personal preference! And moving the tuck up forward makes the dog look less long (Wanted to tank CM for being the first to say that for me to notice!) by giving the illusion of less body and more leg.

The 'tuck up' aka the flank is the line where the leg meets body.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

Ah, that makes sense. But how do you move it forward? Do you just trim deeper closer to the rib cage as opposed to the leg?


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Just getting back to this thread & saw the pictures. Yikes, It looks even to be a bad lamb clip. The German is much more flowing than the "P" way of doing a Lamb. There are NO definate lines that seperate legs from body. Your Poodle is slightly chunky so you have to leave a little hair on the body & I would try a #3 body & then you can use a SOC when the legs are fuller, maybe an "A" for a petstyle on those legs. TK is o.k. pet wise, easy to maintain & I do lots of short TK due to the owners wanting them short with short bodies. You can alwasy look in groomer forums as well at photos. There is the Groomers Lounge & that has just been re-done so you will have to go & see the archives with large number of photos. There is Pet Groomer Forum with photos as well. You may post as well in these. I should start a FB form for owner groomers & newbi groomers.


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