# Finally ordered a grinder



## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I'd be interested to see how you like it. I have been cooking my dogs' food for a while now. I would consider raw but I just don't want to deal with the mess of the bones and all. I tried the pre- made raw, but after a few months Max came down with pancreatitis- so that was the end of that! If I could grind my own, that would be different because I could control the fat content. I'll be watching for your updates an how easy it is to use.


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## kglad (May 10, 2014)

Carolinek- 

Abby's a snacker, not a wolfer of food, and I'm very curious to see how she reacts during the introduction to homemade food. I think her eating habits will change! She'll look more like this- :eating: "Ma! I'm ready! Food, please!" vs "Ho hum, kibble, snack, snooze, snack.."

The biggest changes for us (the people in the family) will be to NOT leave food out for snacking, but rather to give the critters 30 minutes or so to eat what they have before we pack it up into the refrigerator until the next meal. Back when we fed a raw/canned blend to the cats, that worked okay as long as we gave three meals a day. Cutting it to two meals per day made them cranky and then a couple of them would start fights with the others :fencing: the tinky jerks LOL


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## kglad (May 10, 2014)

Update on the homemade food saga--

So far, so good! Abby loves the food alone and mixed with her kibble. She's only getting about 5 or 6 tablespoons a day so I can monitor her stools and such. She's had no problems with the homemade food. I partially cooked some of the portions. 

Abby's getting the same food as the five cats, with the full cat-dose of taurine, which she doesn't need. I am not worried, because it's only a supplement to her dry food for now. I'm following the Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health directions, which include removing the skin from 50% of the chicken thighs and removing about 25% of the bones. I added a boneless/skinless chicken breast to each triple batch since I had them on hand. A regular batch is around 3lbs of chicken thighs/skin/bones.

Cats are getting the homemade-plus-canned. One of them needs a vet visit to check her pancreas and may need the recipe adjusted to reduce the fat. We feed some outdoor strays and they'll need more fat over the winter. I could grind the skin as an additive for them, I guess.

Things I've noted in the process: 

Even with mixing the homemade with commercial food, we're going through quite a bit. The first batch was about 10 lbs after meat/bones/skin/water etc. That lasted slightly less than a week. I almost quadrupled that for this batch.

Removing bones from chicken thighs is no fun. I think a better way to reduce the bone:meat AND fatrotein ratios _may _be to adjust the recipe to substitute boneless/skinless white meat for a few chicken thighs.

I'm really slow. I take what seems like a ridiculously long time to set up, prepare, package, and clean up afterward. Bigger batches are better, and getting a chest freezer would be best. Ideally, I'd like to make 4 to 6 months of food at a time. Right now, all I can cram into the freezer is about 2.5 weeks' worth. About 4 day's worth goes directly to the refrigerator.

Once we get a chest freezer, I can start making separate batches for Abby and the cats.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

That's how I got a new freezer I feel comfortable after reading your questions and fjm's helpful responses that I could make my own dog food. The problem is I barely have enough energy to plan and make our human suppers, so it's going to have to be necks for a while. I think the idea of deboned chicken makes a lot of sense to reduce prep times.


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## kglad (May 10, 2014)

I miss our little chest freezer from the old place. It was perfect for pet food  

DH is concerned that we might not keep up on making the homemade food, but I'm willing to do it as long as I can do it in big batches. I'm not doing this every week... LOL

It really helps that we're starting out kind of slow on it, too. Every pet is still on commercial food. If I get too busy with school or something, the pets will be just fine and won't starve or have digestive issues from switching foods.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Good Feeding.*

I have seen a lot of dogs with various health problems caused by commercial dog foods. There are virtually no regulations concerning dog foods and it is a big money industry. Melamine has been found in baby foods because it fools testing and registers as protein. Believe me all manner of substances can be found in dog kibbles. Even the very best have flavor enhancement and coloring chemicals. I have been in the position to have fed a large number of working dogs. I found that the best and easiest feeding regime was to feed a "working dog kibble" with occasional raw red meat. This was found to be the healthiest diet. The raw meat was twice weekly. Pets might need less hot feeds.

Grace eats the same kibble and is given left overs and sometimes small portions from our own meals. No No's like onions and acid fruits are removed. The kibble I use is:
Laucke Mills ? Great Barko
Working dog foods used by ranches and police forces would be the same.
Grace will graze on this food and will only eat that which she needs. She is getting smart and will wait for our meal to be over and eat all she can of what is left and only then go on to top up with the kibble.
Good working dog foods are rarely found here in pet shops, supermarkets or vets. The "Great Barko", I use, has to be ordered in from a stock feed agent. It is less than half the price of comparable foods on the supermarket shelf. Big pet food concerns like purina nesle are buying up all the other pet food companies to control the market. A little research should reveal good foods.
Eric:angel2:


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Once you've got this down to a science, I would be interested in how the cost stacks up. Having control over what your animals eat is priceless, of course. When I see those refrigerated packages of dog food at the pet stores or the grocery store, I almost always think kibble would be safer, dehydrated would be safer. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but that is what goes through my mind.


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## kglad (May 10, 2014)

Even the best dry food is still processed to become dry kibble, altering the nutrition. Rancidity and other spoilage (molds, etc) can occur, too. Bags of food can sit in cold, freezing, hot, or humid places and degrade further nutritionally from temp/humidity extremes. 

Melamine. That garbage poison-ingredient killed one of my cats. I'm very leery of all pet foods now. Poor Sappho; she was the only one on prescription food for IBS-type issues. ): That's about the time I started going to canned.

Does that mean I'll wean Abby off dry entirely? Probably not. When she has to board or travel... it's hard to handle homemade in those situations. I don't have much experience boarding her, but the one place did not accept raw/homemade food. Kibble only, I think, anyways. 

I try to keep up on what's going on with pet food, but like ericwd9 says, companies get bought, ingredients get swapped, flavor enhancing ingredients get added... and some are just bad altogether and filled with all manner of things that w

For now, Abby's on Innova Puppy and I planned to move her to the Innova Adult afterward, but I will check out the Great Barko. Abby was free-fed as a puppy and I typically leave kibble in her dish here- and she will eat what she wants/needs. She's a leggy-lean girl at ~17" and ~20 lbs or so. Treat motivated, gobbles up the homemade food, grazes on the kibble. Red meat is a good suggestion-- I will try her on a small amount of home-ground raw red meat next time I stock up on meat for the critters. 

I think the few tablespoons per day of raw ground chicken is a good start, though. It has some supplements and chicken livers added. She hasn't seemed to react negatively to the chicken blend at all. Seemed all right with beef treats and pig ears, too

Definitely starting slowly, though. If she starts showing allergic symptoms in skin, coat, digestive, or ear health, I want to know what's causing it :act-up:


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I am a reluctant convert to the benefits of home cooked. I say reluctant only because of the time commitment. It would be so much easier to just pick up some dog food at the store. However, I keep doing it because Max and Lily have problems when I don't. 

I put them on home cooked a few years ago after Max had skin issues, mobility problems, and grew a very large wart on the bottom of his foot. I saw a holistic vet because traditional veterinary medicine was ineffective for him- and they were talking about having to remove a part of his foot with the wart! Ugh. The holistic treatment was very effective: the wart disappeared, skin cleared up, and he kept all of his foot and could walk properly again. One component of his plan was nutrition- and she stressed the importance of taking him off kibble. 

I keep looking for acceptable substitutes when I run out of home cooked, but it seems every time I veer from home cooked, one of them has problems. I put them on premade raw last summer, but after a few months, Max came down with pancreatitis. I tried Honest Kitchen, but Max refused to eat it after a week or so. He is not usually a fussy eater. We were traveling at the time, so this was problematic. Recently, I gave them Wellness canned, and Lily had bloody diarrhea for a few days. Lily also had an episode of HGE that landed her at the emergency vet back when I was feeding kibble. She has a tendency to have bowel issues, but has no problems when on a home cooked diet. Misty, my havanese, is the only one that tolerates anything.

So, these instances, plus others I haven't mentioned, have strengthened my resolve to keep up with it. But it takes planning, although I have developed a routine. I'm not really scientific about it either. If I don't have a batch prepared, I'll throw a raw egg and some toast in a bowl or open a can of sardines and put it on oatmeal. I have several back up plans like that. They tolerate those substitutions just fine- so why don't they tolerate a top- rated canned food? 

I may buy a grinder and try integrating some raw- we'll see. Maybe I shouldn't fix it if it isn't broke!


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## kglad (May 10, 2014)

Carolinek, Wellness is one of those canned foods that puts a high fat content in for palatability and then adds carrageenan/gums for consistency. I checked the Wellness CORE Grain-Free Turkey canned canine and it has more carrageenan and guar gum than carrots. That's a bad sign for dogs prone to digestive issues or other health issues. Carrageenan and some of the gums are bad for all animals (humans included, and they show up in lots of products) Here's some info on carrageenan-- a quick answer at Dr. Weil's site. Dr. Tobacman is the leading researcher on this topic at this time. 

Dr. Lisa Pierson published a Protein/Fat/Carbohydrate food chart for canned cat foods in 2012 and discusses the high fat content in her other pages at her website. I don't know how that translates into the dog food, but I'd be rather surprised if Wellness gave the dog food a high protein and low fat ratio considering their cat food is very, very high in fat.

Those could be a few reasons they don't tolerate the canned.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Kglad- You're definitely right on target. Thank you. I just looked at a can of the Wellness I used(whitefish) and fat content was 4%, with 78% moisture content... which puts it at 18% fat once the moisture is considered. Ugh- not good. I didn't look closely enough at it and threw it in the cart to get through the first couple busy weeks of the semester. Probably lucky Max didn't have a problem too. Again, doubling my resolve to not futz around with their diet, even when life is busy. 

I worry about going too low fat though, as they need fat in their diet. I have started adding coconut oil. It's a medium chain fatty acid, which means it doesn't stimulate the pancreas,as it doesn't need pancreatic enzymes to be digested and is easy on the digestive tract. They use it with humans with pancreatitis. I'm not a nutritionist, but I ran it by a nutritionist where I work, and he agreed it was a good addition.

These dogs and their delicate bowels- good Lord, I thought they evolved as scavengers!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Delicate Bowels?*

"These dogs and their delicate bowels- good Lord, I thought they evolved as scavengers!"

Dogs do not have delicate bowels. Dog foods contain poisons!!
Some human foods contain poisons. It's a multi-billion dollar industry.
Just try getting a dog food company into court. If you do have any real evidence then you will be paid well out of court. They can afford it.
Eric:alberteinstein:


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Eric-yes, I've definitely gotten to the point where I like to see what is in my dog's food. Kind of scary. I'd love to find a product that I can trust for traveling and busy times though. I've used Stella and Chewys with good effect, but it is horribly expensive, especially for 3 dogs. Guess it's a good thing I actually like to cook!


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## kglad (May 10, 2014)

4% fat is the minimum guaranteed analysis for the Wellness whitefish/sweet potato. It could be much higher, even doubled when the exact analysis is discovered.

Dr. Pierson got some exact information from canned cat food manufacturers, which of course can vary by batch. She breaks down the label-reading very well here

To save time searching for a quick example, here's the exact, quoted text from that web page for canned Wellness chicken cat food:

" Let's use Wellness canned Chicken as an example of how misleading the carbohydrate calculation from the label values can be:

Guaranteed Analysis:

Protein (min) 10.0%

Fat (min) 6.0%

Fiber (max) 1.0%

Moisture (max) 78.0%

Ash (max) 1.8%

If you add up all of those numbers, you get 96.8%. Subtract this from 100% and you get 3.2% carbohydrates on a wet-weight basis. However, values should be considered on a dry matter basis (DMB). In order to convert that 3.2% into a dry matter basis, we must divide it by the dry matter in the food which, in this case, is at least 22%. I say "at least" because the moisture is listed as a maximum so it could be less than 78%. (100% - 78% moisture = 22% dry matter.) 3.2% divided by 22% = 14.5% carbohydrates on a DMB. Most of us would walk away from a food with that carbohydrate level.

However, when I obtained the more accurate measured values (versus minimums and maximums) from the company, it turns out that the fat content is closer to 11% - not 6% as listed on the label (as a minimum) and the protein was actually 12% not 10%. The moisture content was measured at 73% - not 78%. The wet-weight carbohydrates measured at 1.7% and the carbohydrates on a DMB were 6.5%. "

Pet food is very hard to suss out accurately, since the Guaranteed Analysis works in minimums and maximums, not exact amounts.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

It is interesting the fat is reported as a minimum. Considering the caloric denseness of fat compared to protein, and the liberal "ranges" companies are allowed to use, pets could be getting way more of their calories from fat than protein. Seems like a lot of "smoke and mirrors" in these reports- in the end it's not the real truth anyway. Also, the consumer should not have to spend 20 minutes figuring out a food label. 

I have to board my crew in January, but they don't have a problem with home cooked, I just have to make sure I have enough made. The owner of the facility feeds raw, so she is understanding about diet.


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## kglad (May 10, 2014)

Carolinek- you're exactly right! Looking at the canned food in the P/F/C document that shows them in calorie % (not weight/ composition %), some of the canned cat foods are over 60% calories from FAT. I picked a couple high-fat ones here-- 

Eukanuba Adult- Entree with Gourmet Chicken: 39%cal from protein, 60%cal from fat, 1%cal from carbohydrates. 

Innova EVO 95% Chicken and Turkey: 25%cal from protein, 73%cal from fat, 2%cal from carbohydrates. Seventy. Three. Percent. And it's expensive as heck.

Both of these are from the nutritional composition from the company, not an estimate from the GA on the can. That will vary by batch.

I'm glad to hear the place you board will feed homemade. I will try to find some local places that do that, too.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Things to take dog food shopping: magnifying glass, calculator, Google for definitions of additives, etc. etc. (Thank goodness for smart phones!) Now my "magical thinking" about the relative safety of kibble has been dashed. I can drag my new bag of kibble out of the closet to check, but has anyone noticed a total calories per recommended serving size on the labels? That would be helpful.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Mfmst- too funny- who would have thought this would be so complex??? I'm not sure of labels, maybe someone else knows.

I feel the same way about this as I felt when I discovered I was over vaccinating my dogs at the advice of veterinary professionals. We need to be informed pet parents,and it's frustrating when that information is hard to get and clouded by marketing schemes. Anytime profit enters the equation, the consumer has to be ever vigilant, and question, question, question!


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