# How to warn about a bad breeder



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Unfortunately no, it is buyer beware. 
Not everyone breeding dogs should be and it seems to be a business of making money not healthy dogs for these folks selling dogs.
I recently lost my beautiful Beatrice at 7 1/2 years after spending $25, 000 in vet bills, the byb I got her from didn't want to hear anything about her easily preventable health issues, basically she would have never been born if the appropriate testing had been done, her parents shouldn't have been bred.
Not all dogs should be bred.
I was robbed, cheated whatever you want to call it. None of her issues showed up under the time frame of my states puppy lemon law. 
Your best bet is to check the state where you bought the pup if there us a puppy lemon law


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

So sorry for your bad experience! I think visiting the puppy and breeder in person is so important. I realize not all people are able to do this, but if you can, DO. And then when you get there, if anything seems off, WALK AWAY. We've had so many horror stories here on the forum, especially recently, of horrible breeding/rearing practices and unethical breeders.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

The only way in many instances to put people like this out of business is to walk away and not take the pup you were interested in. The other thing to do is to check your state's agriculture and markets law regarding breeding and selling domestic animals and other similar laws as twyla referred to "puppy lemon laws."


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## Rosie's Mom (Aug 9, 2014)

twyla said:


> Unfortunately no, it is buyer beware.
> Not everyone breeding dogs should be and it seems to be a business of making money not healthy dogs for these folks selling dogs.
> I recently lost my beautiful Beatrice at 7 1/2 years after spending $25, 000 in vet bills, the byb I got her from didn't want to hear anything about her easily preventable health issues, basically she would have never been born if the appropriate testing had been done, her parents shouldn't have been bred.
> Not all dogs should be bred.
> ...


Unfortunately for us, we fell in love with her. To be honest, for us to just return her would be a very bad issue with 7 grandchildren-5of which are under 6. It might give them the idea if they are not perfect someone could get rid of them.

House training has been difficult as she had zero idea of being clean. We are still having major problems. This definitely not our first rodeo and even my close friend who is our local animal control officer is stumped. Weeks of me stand in ding outside for over an hour and her urinating when I get in the house is getting old.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

For those of you who might be considering buying a dog of any breed, I think your first stop should be Orthopedic Foundation for Animals web site (www.ofa.org).


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

What did the Humane Society say? If you are genuinely concerned about the welfare of the animals living under the breeder’s roof, I’m surprised they didn’t investigate. What about local animal control?

As far as the commercial side of their enterprise goes, probably the best thing you can do is get their name out so anyone googling them will see your review. And if you feel there is anything illegal about what they’re doing (e.g. bait and switch, anything you might consider a scam) contact the FTC or state attorney general.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Rosie's Mom said:


> Unfortunately for us, we fell in love with her. To be honest, for us to just return her would be a very bad issue with 7 grandchildren-5of which are under 6. It might give them the idea if they are not perfect someone could get rid of them.
> 
> House training has been difficult as she had zero idea of being clean. We are still having major problems. This definitely not our first rodeo and even my close friend who is our local animal control officer is stumped. Weeks of me stand in ding outside for over an hour and her urinating when I get in the house is getting old.


I fell in love my girl too and my heart broke when she died.
I hope to God your puppy will get healthy and remain so.
My girl was very much loved but no dog should ever go through what she did.

I cannot ever go through that again, I am waiting for my next girl from a highly regarded reputable breeder who tests to the yin yang


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Rosie's Mom said:


> I wish there was some place to report a breeder who I am very unhappy about. The AKC was not helpful nor was the Humane Society in the city where we purchased our puppy.
> 
> Maybe I am wrong, but I have owned dogs my entire life--I am 72. My Dad bred Vizslas in the early 1960's when no one knew what they were. My husband and I bred Weimaraners in the mid '7-'s. I have had poodles since I was 9.
> 
> ...


This will depend on your comfort level doing this but you are well within the PF Rules to name the breeder here. By doing so, you may help others avoid this situation, or at least be on notice. 

The applicable rules are in the Stickies above the general threads in this forun. 

Excerpt from the rules:

5.9 In discussing a breeder, *your opinions and inferences should be based on a degree of available factual knowledge*. What is factual knowledge? It covers a lot of ground:

a) You have experience with the breeder. This is where you have spoken directly and in-depth or worked with the breeder, OR

b) You have directly observed the environment where the puppies and dogs are; OR,

c) Other concrete observations - You have read or observed in photos or videos on their sites or other electronic site(s), which may include pedigrees, health testing, contracts, public court documents or animal welfare complaints, OR

d) You have read information on OFA or a DNA testing site and seen which conditions were tested - and observed which tests have been omitted; OR

e) You have read court documentation or registered complaints on government websites, and review websites such as Yelp or Google, and can provide the links.

f) There is no agreed upon term defining a “backyard breeder”. For example, one person’s hobby breeder who doesn’t place their poodle in Conformation shows but has other assets, still might be another person’s byb. Instead, stating non-judgmental, specific factual observations in their breeding program and environment is far more productive, and shows respect to all readers who can make up their own minds without anyone telling them what and how to think.

Members may make *reasonable inferences* from the above which leaves a lot of room to do so. HOWEVER, members are not to make wild assumptions and "fill in the blanks". Breeding, when done with excellence, is expensive, so this is to avoid spreading untruths, but also for you not being sued for libel or defamation.


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## Rosie's Mom (Aug 9, 2014)

Rose n Poos said:


> This will depend on your comfort level doing this but you are well within the PF Rules to name the breeder here. By doing so, you may help others avoid this situation, or at least be on notice.
> 
> The applicable rules are in the Stickies above the general threads in this forun.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the info. I am not comfortable naming the breeder on the forum as I am sure someone else may think he is wonderful abs nastiness begins. However I am willing to privately advise anyone purchasing from a breeder in Ohio to personally be careful. I know or am reasonably sure there are many great, responsible breeders in Ohio and elsewhere but this is one I would exercise caution using.


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

I have purchased (3) poodles over the past 30 years and each time it was not easy. The first one I got was from a byb. The breeders were nice people and obviously loved their dogs (the parents of my puppy) but both of those dogs were nasty and I should have rejected the puppy (I didn't!) Happily the dog I got was healthy but he was never friendly (he liked about 5 people and that was it and he hated other animals) Lesson learned! He lived a long life and I loved him but no one else even liked him, which is not ideal. And I was always afraid he would bite someone (he didn't, but that was more because no one went near him)

The next time I got a puppy I went through lots of local possible mills - filthy homes, dirty puppies, etc. until I found a breeder who was a) married to a vet, b) had detailed health records on the parents of the puppy, c) had a spotless home. This time the puppy passed the sniff test and I had that dog (who was friendly and happy and mostly healthy) 17 years until he passed.

This last time (last fall) was a super challenge thanks to all the supply issues, etc. I visited two breeders. The first I past on because both parents (on the premises) were nasty and the two puppies there seemed off to me so though the price was right, and the puppies were adorable, and the breeder came as a recommendation from the PCA, I left empty handed. I got lucky at the second breeder I visited. Everything about her checked out and the puppy was healthy and clean and the sire (who was on the premises) was as sweet as the puppy I was considering.

Biggest problem these days is the way most breeders operate (which is they pick a puppy out for you, you don't get to meet the puppy before you bring it home, etc.) is just not conducive to making a good decision on a puppy. I got lucky because the puppy I took home had become available when someone else bowed out of their contract. I got to meet the puppy before bringing it home and just paid in full on the spot (rather than the deposit/wait for the dog to be born/we'll pick a puppy for you route) That was dumb luck. 

That being said - I think most breeders sell on limited contract unless you have some other deal worked out. (that would not be a red flag for me) This last breeder did not require that I neuter the puppy but my last dog was sold to me with that as a requirement. 

Bottom line - if anything at all makes you uncomfortable about a breeder, their terms, the condition of the puppy, the premises, the parents, etc..... trust your gut and hold out for the next puppy/breeder.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

Rosie's Mom said:


> I wish there was some place to report a breeder who I am very unhappy about. The AKC was not helpful nor was the Humane Society in the city where we purchased our puppy.
> 
> Maybe I am wrong, but I have owned dogs my entire life--I am 72. My Dad bred Vizslas in the early 1960's when no one knew what they were. My husband and I bred Weimaraners in the mid '7-'s. I have had poodles since I was 9.
> 
> ...


It is up to the buyer to do their research to find a responsible breeder to work with. The AKC is basically a registration agency and does not police or vet breeders. Frankly, with the "breeding" background you mention for your father, yourself and your husband (assuming you were all not BYB, did all health testing on your breeding stock to CHIC standards, and showed and titled all of your breeding stock in either conformation and/or performance before breeding) I'm REALLY amazed you didn't know how to find a responsible Poodle breeder. And if you DID breed responsibly, you should absolutely know that responsible breeders generally always sell their pups on limited registration, unless potential breeding, after titling and passing all health testing to CHIC standards (hips/elbows/eyes/cardiac/etc.) has been discussed. Did you sell the pups you bred on full registration so any owner could breed them whenever and however they wanted? With or without proper health testing? With or without showing and finishing titles? 

It sounds like you worked with some TOTAL backyard breeder. Did you not get regular videos/pics of the pups from the time the litter was whelped? Did you discuss in advance with the breeder to confirm they did biosensor exercises/scent exposure on the litter from birth and then, when appropriate, puppy culture/avidog work? Did you confirm they would do temperament testing at 7 weeks (Volhard or Avidog) to do proper placement for each puppy with each owner, based on what they wanted to do with the pup in future? Did you ask if they were going to do conformation evaluations at 8 weeks or so, to also assist in puppy placement? 

The fact that you ignored SO many red flags prior to getting your pup is amazing. On pickup, did you not notice things like her general smell right away, as opposed to 8 hours later? Was her FFT not clipped and was she not freshly bathed? Which is the way all responsible breeders deliver pups to the new owners. Did you not check her over when you picked her up, including her bite (which, BTW, a responsible breeder would have discussed with you before pickup, in case you chose to decline the puppy before traveling to get her). 

Not even going to go into some of the other issues you have mentioned. But you should absolutely be willing to disclose this breeder here on the forum, without need for PM, as a number of others have done in similar situations with breeders, to advise extra caution/need for additional research.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm closing this thread for now, as it seems likely to take an unproductive and personal turn.


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