# Insight on these miniature breeders in and around NC?



## a2girl (Oct 4, 2020)

I am picking up my puppy from AnnMarie Saunier, Shiann Poodles, in 2 weeks. I chose her because she is completely open about posting health and genetic test results on OFA. I had experiences with two other breeders who said all the testing had been done but the results were not all posted, and they would not share prior to my picking up the puppy. Neither of these breeders is on your list. AnnMarie specializes in apricot and red minis. AnnMarie has been very straightforward with me and has always answered my questions, but her communications are brief. She will not be the breeder who shares lots of photos and videos. But her practices seem very sound to me and her #1 priority is the welfare of her dogs. She is also a professional groomer and tries to show all her dogs to championship titles. I believe that she has done some co-breeding with Classic/Eaglehill. The latter was another breeder that I would have considered But I got lucky first with AnnMarie.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I don't have personal experience with any of them, but every one is a breeder that I'd feel comfortable following up with for myself or recommending to others for follow up.


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## lialili338 (Mar 13, 2021)

a2girl said:


> I am picking up my puppy from AnnMarie Saunier, Shiann Poodles, in 2 weeks. I chose her because she is completely open about posting health and genetic test results on OFA. I had experiences with two other breeders who said all the testing had been done but the results were not all posted, and they would not share prior to my picking up the puppy. Neither of these breeders is on your list. AnnMarie specializes in apricot and red minis. AnnMarie has been very straightforward with me and has always answered my questions, but her communications are brief. She will not be the breeder who shares lots of photos and videos. But her practices seem very sound to me and her #1 priority is the welfare of her dogs. She is also a professional groomer and tries to show all her dogs to championship titles. I believe that she has done some co-breeding with Classic/Eaglehill. The latter was another breeder that I would have considered But I got lucky first with AnnMarie.


Once you visit her, can you tell me your experience? I'm definitely interested in her as well. Congrats on your new puppy!
EDIT: Can you also tell me about the health testing she does, if you know? It isn't listed on her website besides CERF testing.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

The only ones I've heard direct discussion of are Tintlet, Eaglehill-South, Shiann, and Aery. I believe all are very reputable and I nearly went with a pup from Eaglehill-South myself. My dog has an Eaglehill-South dog in his pedigree as well. I would have no question on the quality of their dogs. My only reservation was in the size of their minis as they seem to be mostly 13-14" dogs and I was hoping for something more moyen-sized around 15". That and the timing of litters wasn't ideal.


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## a2girl (Oct 4, 2020)

lialili338 said:


> Once you visit her, can you tell me your experience? I'm definitely interested in her as well. Congrats on your new puppy!
> EDIT: Can you also tell me about the health testing she does, if you know? It isn't listed on her website besides CERF testing.


I’ll be happy to share my experience after picking up my puppy. You can look up her dogs and see their test results on www.OFA.org using her kennel name, Shiann. You will want to do this for any breeder you are considering. You can ask for the AKC registered names of the sire and dam, and hopefully their test results will be posted there. Best of luck with your search. I found it to be a real roller coaster ride myself.


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## Cree C. (May 27, 2021)

a2girl said:


> I am picking up my puppy from AnnMarie Saunier, Shiann Poodles, in 2 weeks. I chose her because she is completely open about posting health and genetic test results on OFA. I had experiences with two other breeders who said all the testing had been done but the results were not all posted, and they would not share prior to my picking up the puppy. Neither of these breeders is on your list. AnnMarie specializes in apricot and red minis. AnnMarie has been very straightforward with me and has always answered my questions, but her communications are brief. She will not be the breeder who shares lots of photos and videos. But her practices seem very sound to me and her #1 priority is the welfare of her dogs. She is also a professional groomer and tries to show all her dogs to championship titles. I believe that she has done some co-breeding with Classic/Eaglehill. The latter was another breeder that I would have considered But I got lucky first with AnnMarie.



I hope to get a puppy from AnnMarie too. I'm on her list for a litter that will be ready in late July. But you're right that she doesn't communicate a lot. I felt silly emailing about the due date but she kindly replied May 23rd. Now I wanna ask how it went but I don't want to bother her! 🙈 How soon did she let you know something/anything and ask for deposit? 

Cree


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## a2girl (Oct 4, 2020)

Cree C. said:


> I hope to get a puppy from AnnMarie too. I'm on her list for a litter that will be ready in late July. But you're right that she doesn't communicate a lot. I felt silly emailing about the due date but she kindly replied May 23rd. Now I wanna ask how it went but I don't want to bother her! 🙈 How soon did she let you know something/anything and ask for deposit?
> 
> Cree


As I recall, we spoke on the phone about 4 days after the litter was born, and I gave her a deposit then. I was first on the list. Good luck! What are the names of the sire and dam?


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## lialili338 (Mar 13, 2021)

Cree C. said:


> I hope to get a puppy from AnnMarie too. I'm on her list for a litter that will be ready in late July. But you're right that she doesn't communicate a lot. I felt silly emailing about the due date but she kindly replied May 23rd. Now I wanna ask how it went but I don't want to bother her! 🙈 How soon did she let you know something/anything and ask for deposit?
> 
> Cree


I emailed her on May 24th actually, but she said there were no puppies yet. I've been in contact since March and called her in late April. I'm assuming she'll contact me if something's available? I'm also wondering if she's waiting a week to make sure all the puppies survive, before contacting people. I may call her again after a week has passed or something.


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## Cree C. (May 27, 2021)

lialili338 said:


> I emailed her on May 24th actually, but she said there were no puppies yet. I've been in contact since March and called her in late April. I'm assuming she'll contact me if something's available? I'm also wondering if she's waiting a week to make sure all the puppies survive, before contacting people. I may call her again after a week has passed or something.


Yes that's what I think too. I'm fine with doing things her way, just excited. Thanks for your reply 🙂


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## Iaekster (Mar 31, 2021)

Cree C. said:


> Yes that's what I think too. I'm fine with doing things her way, just excited. Thanks for your reply 🙂


Can you please let us know what the breeder said? 
My story sounds like yours, reached out in March, then April, then May... was put on waiting list... but no news, I know the puppies were born, she just told me "I don't know what's available" - same response she gave me a week ago. I'm just trying to figure out if I should keep my hopes up or not.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Iaekster said:


> Can you please let us know what the breeder said?
> My story sounds like yours, reached out in March, then April, then May... was put on waiting list... but no news, I know the puppies were born, she just told me "I don't know what's available" - same response she gave me a week ago. I'm just trying to figure out if I should keep my hopes up or not.


I wonder if she is waiting to see if any of the puppies are worth holding back as show or breeding prospects, or if she is waiting to heat back from others further up on the list. I got both Galen and Snarky when their previous buyers backed out. Years ago I also lost out on a really nice brown boy when someone higher on the list agreed to accept a male instead of waiting for a female from the next breeding.


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## Iaekster (Mar 31, 2021)

cowpony said:


> I wonder if she is waiting to see if any of the puppies are worth holding back as show or breeding prospects, or if she is waiting to heat back from others further up on the list. I got both Galen and Snarky when their previous buyers backed out. Years ago I also lost out on a really nice brown boy when someone higher on the list agreed to accept a male instead of waiting for a female from the next breeding.


Got it. Thanks so much for sharing your experience!


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## Cree C. (May 27, 2021)

Iaekster said:


> Can you please let us know what the breeder said?
> My story sounds like yours, reached out in March, then April, then May... was put on waiting list... but no news, I know the puppies were born, she just told me "I don't know what's available" - same response she gave me a week ago. I'm just trying to figure out if I should keep my hopes up or not.


I called and left a message today. No response yet. I don't like this way of doing things, I really wish she would give more detail so that we can keep looking if need be. If she's not sure about pups that she may be keeping she could just say that but of course it's her choice. I am chatting with other breeders in any case since I never got a firm reply from her and there's no way to know where I am on the list since she doesn't share that info.


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## Iaekster (Mar 31, 2021)

Cree C. said:


> I called and left a message today. No response yet. I don't like this way of doing things, I really wish she would give more detail so that we can keep looking if need be. If she's not sure about pups that she may be keeping she could just say that but of course it's her choice. I am chatting with other breeders in any case since I never got a firm reply from her and there's no way to know where I am on the list since she doesn't share that info.


Well, yes, I hear you. I spent 2 months+ keeping hopes up (and my children's too) that this would be then plan. I even booked trips around this, thinking it was a serious conversation. I'm trying to find other breeders, if you come across any other, please let me know. Thanks!


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## a2girl (Oct 4, 2020)

Iaekster said:


> Well, yes, I hear you. I spent 2 months+ keeping hopes up (and my children's too) that this would be then plan. I even booked trips around this, thinking it was a serious conversation. I'm trying to find other breeders, if you come across any other, please let me know. Thanks!


There’s a good list of reputable breeders in the original post in this discussion thread. You might want to check them out.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

There seem to be two main ways that breeders handle wait lists and deposits, whether they stay in touch or not.

To some breeders the two are essentially the same. The new family and the breeder have had back and forth communications, vetted each other (an application also may or may not be required), and there is agreement between all parties. The good faith deposit is placed to hold a suitable puppy but there may not yet be puppies on the ground. 

The other way is to follow the same procedures listed above but the waitlist and deposit are treated separately. The waitlist is the breeders way of keeping track of who wants what in a puppy, who's ready for a puppy, but the deposit is not required until puppies are on the ground. 

There is a third way that can happen and that's serendipity. Possibly the new family and breeder have already gone thru this process with a prior dog and both feel comfortable with each other. Possibly the new family and breeder are introduced by someone known to each other so they feel comfortable. Waitlists and deposits may not figure in at all, puppies may be on the ground or planned, but the vetting either has been done before or is being vouched for.

Pros and cons to each way but that is between the breeder and the new family.

These are some examples of how a quality breeder handles deposits:


Example A

"Please be as thorough as possible when answering. Your answers help me choose which pup in the litter will be best suited to you and your family. Complete answers go a long way towards matching the best pups for the best families. Filling out the application is not a guarantee of approval. I require a $500 deposit to hold a puppy for approved families. If a litter does not result from a breeding then I will refund your deposit. Your deposit is not refundable in the event that you change your mind, purchase a pup from another breeder, etc. If you wish to be added to my waiting list complete the puppy application. Once approved you may send me a $500 deposit. Families who have been approved and send deposits are given first priority."

Example B

"Step 2: Waiting List

The "waiting list" is a document filled with dozens of potential families for our future puppies. They range in colour preferences, family dynamics, time frames for bringing home a puppy, etc. When we are planning a litter, I will go through the waiting list and contact one family at a time until I find a few homes that are prepared for a new puppy. This is not necessarily a "first come, first serve" basis, but suitable families who have been waiting for 1 year will take priority over suitable families who have been waiting for 3 weeks. The order in which potential owners are contacted entirely depends on what we are expecting in the litter. If the parents of the litter are high energy and known for having more rambunctious puppies, we will be contacting more active and experienced homes. If the parents are mellow and easy-going dogs, we might contact the quieter, less active dog owners on our list.

Step 3: Litter Announcements

Litter announcements are posted on our social media pages, "Puppies" page of our website, and emailed to potential puppy owners (previously contacted and corresponded with before the litter was born). After this announcement, we will maintain contact and provide puppy updates while personalities begin to develop.
Step 4: Matching Puppies to Families

Once the puppies are 4+ weeks old, we will evaluate temperaments and conformation, and decide whether we want to keep back a puppy to show. We typically have input as to which puppy will do best with which family, but the information gathered from 4-6 weeks old will confirm that. We will be able to tell which puppies are shy, high-drive, patient, etc. When possible, we encourage the potential owners to meet the puppy/puppies of our recommendation to ensure it will be a good fit.

Step 5: The Contract

Before taking reservations on any puppies, each potential owner will be emailed a copy of our contract of sale. This document outlines our requirements for spaying/neutering, taking proper care of the dog, and an agreement that the dog will be returned to us if the owners can no longer keep him/her. This contract is to ensure that each party knows their responsibilities, and that the dog will be cared for during their entire life. Any questions or concerns regarding the contract should be addressed before the puppy is reserved.
Step 6: Reservation Fees (Deposits)

A non-refundable fee of $500 is required to reserve a puppy, and goes towards the final purchase price. This secures the puppy to their family until pick-up day. We will then arrange a date and time for pick-up. This is the time to start purchasing supplies, puppy-proofing your household, and brushing up on dog training and behaviour."


Features in common:

There is a planned litter. Each parent has been health tested and then matched to each other for (hopefully) specific results in the litter such as temperament and drive.

The deposit is a good faith guarantee on both sides. The first states that the deposit will be refunded if there is no pregnancy and therefore no puppies. It would not be refunded because the buyer simply changed their mind.

The second breeder requires the non refundable deposit but not til after the puppies are on the ground.

With these types of breeders, they've not only made an investment in all their dogs, they've made an investment in you, the buyer who they've also carefully selected.


We have a member who went thru this lack of communication with their (different) breeder. After some months of not a lot of communication, suddenly the day came.

If you and the breeder came to an agreement with clear understanding that you are on a waitlist, it's most likely true. Not saying it doesn't bite big ones not knowing what's going on. 

Some breeders are very in touch with their folks on waitlists and some aren't until the day.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Copied from Shiann's site

_How does getting a puppy work? Its the most asked question here at Shiann. I do not have an application. If you are interested in a puppy please call 843-251-4183 or email me at [email protected]. The important things I need to know are what type of lifestyle you have. This is the most important question as you would not want a high drive puppy if you are a couch potato. We need to know color,sex and temperament you are looking for. We need to know where you live, your family size and household information. We need to know if you are looking for a family pet, performance or show prospect. It is important for me to talk with you and get to know you as you will be becoming part of our family. I need to know that my puppy will thrive and be well taken care of. Once you have been approved for a puppy and one is available a 500 non refundable deposit is required to reserve puppy until it is old enough to go home. We keep puppies for a minimum of 8 weeks_.

Her process is more like the second example, without that level of communication. If you've been approved by her, and I expect this would be clear in a conversation, then I'd expect that you're on her waitlist.


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## Cree C. (May 27, 2021)

Thank you for the information. I think what's frustrating is if you're added to a "list" but don't have any idea how long the list is. Currently everyone and their brother wants a puppy so if you don't know you'll be passed up for this litter or the next, you could be waiting a year before realizing you need to look elsewhere. It was nothing like this when I got my last puppy 14 yrs ago. It feels like a whole new world now. This process would be a lot easier if I were willing to settle for a puppy mill dog


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Rose n Poos said:


> The important things I need to know are what type of lifestyle you have. This is the most important question as you would not want a high drive puppy if you are a couch potato. We need to know color,sex and temperament you are looking for. We need to know where you live, your family size and household information. We need to know if you are looking for a family pet, performance or show prospect


This quote describes almost the exact interview I went through with a breeder who ultimately declined to put me on her waiting list. Based on the parents, she felt all the pups were likely to be too much dog for me. I suspect the fact that I'm not interested in showing might have played into her decision as well; all her dogs have performance titles. Yes, rejection stung, but it's better than spending the next 12 years managing an ultra high drive dog.

I do agree, though, that it would be nice if some breeders were better about setting expectations. When I got rejected for the brown pup all those years ago and the performance pup more recently I knew exactly what was going on. I knew I was at the bottom of the wait list, and I knew I wouldn't get a pup if the other owner agreed to take a male. Dragging out the process isn't fair.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Cree C. said:


> Thank you for the information. I think what's frustrating is if you're added to a "list" but don't have any idea how long the list is. Currently everyone and their brother wants a puppy so if you don't know you'll be passed up for this litter or the next, you could be waiting a year before realizing you need to look elsewhere. It was nothing like this when I got my last puppy 14 yrs ago. It feels like a whole new world now. This process would be a lot easier if I were willing to settle for a puppy mill dog





cowpony said:


> This quote describes almost the exact interview I went through with a breeder who ultimately declined to put me on her waiting list. Based on the parents, she felt all the pups were likely to be too much dog for me. I suspect the fact that I'm not interested in showing might have played into her decision as well; all her dogs have performance titles. Yes, rejection stung, but it's better than spending the next 12 years managing an ultra high drive dog.
> 
> I do agree, though, that it would be nice if some breeders were better about setting expectations. When I got rejected for the brown pup all those years ago and the performance pup more recently I knew exactly what was going on. I knew I was at the bottom of the wait list, and I knew I wouldn't get a pup if the other owner agreed to take a male. Dragging out the process isn't fair.


There's no arguing that breeders who don't keep lines of communication flowing aren't easy to to deal with emotionally and practically. 

If you want to find a breeder who is more communicative be sure to ask them how they handle this process before you commit. This is a part of the process often learned the hard way because it's not something you'd think of.

Living in the dark just sucks. If you decide to pursue another breeder tho and think you'll really go with another, that's ok but tell the breeder that you're currently on the list with asap so the person behind you is properly moved into your slot. 

The current breeder isn't purposefully keeping you in the dark, there just isn't anything yet to tell from their perspective, so don't keep them in the dark either, if you do.


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## Cree C. (May 27, 2021)

Iaekster said:


> Well, yes, I hear you. I spent 2 months+ keeping hopes up (and my children's too) that this would be then plan. I even booked trips around this, thinking it was a serious conversation. I'm trying to find other breeders, if you come across any other, please let me know. Thanks!


Any luck hearing from this breeder or did you find another breeder you like?


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