# Tail docking and dew claws removal



## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

if you do a quick search on either topic (dew claws and docking) you'll find a treasure trove of discussion and opinions. It's a hot button issue, but I'm sure if you have more questions after reading some of the older posts, our PF members will have thoughts to share


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

As far as dew claws go, some dogs seem to have them and be fine, and some dogs seem to have them and always injure them. I was glad that Hans had them removed as a baby so it would never be an issue. I think the surgery is more involved if they become a problem and need to be removed as an adult. I also think they would be annoying to groom around (a minor thing, but nice to avoid it). 

Regarding tails, I think the biggest reason they are docked in the US is that it's still common for showing. I think it is harder to finish a dog in AKC with a natural tail (that's what I've heard, at least). The breeders we spoke with generally docked all tails because the docking is done while it is too early to decide which puppies will go to show homes. Personally, I would be ok with the US banning docking as the UK has done, but on the other side I do think Hans looks nice with his docked tail. It doesn't seem to bother him at all - he still runs, jumps, and swims fine.


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## cookiepuppy (Aug 4, 2015)

If your dog is in any sort of sporting activity those dew claws have a purpose. And removing them might lead to carpal (wrist) arthritis.

Check this out.

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/dewclawexplanation.pdf


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Coldbrew said:


> if you do a quick search on either topic (dew claws and docking) you'll find a treasure trove of discussion and opinions. It's a hot button issue, but I'm sure if you have more questions after reading some of the older posts, our PF members will have thoughts to share


I did do a bit of digging in past forums. ArreauStandardPoodle's answer was really helpful...I think she mentioned health reasons...which makes sense to me. I've worked with rescues who helped a lot of dogs with broken tails. This past weekend, I met a pug who lost bowel control because the owner didn't amputate a broken tail. If tails are detremental in general why is it more common in some breeds to have docked tails (ie boxers, poodles, Australian shepherds) and less common in others (ie retrievers, pugs). I did wonder if it was a AKC show dog standard ...but couldn't find a definitive answer.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Both Lily and Javelin have docked tails and have had their dew claws removed. Old traditions of these practices as well as clips like a continental go back to the work of standard poodles as water retrievers. They do not need a long tail to swim well.

As to whether these practices are inhumane or not I think you will have a variety of opinions on that. I rather think of them as on a par with circumcising a newborn boy. Any man I have ever know well enough to know he was circumcised in infancy says he has no traumatic memories of it, but a very good college friend who had a circumcision as an adult was rather traumatized by it and reported it as the worst pain he ever endured. He had a terrible drug reaction to an anti-malarial drug when he was in Africa doing field research. While he was hallucinating he fell and bit all the way through his lower lip among other injuries. He said that was nothing in comparison to the circumcision. I prefer knowing that neither of the poodles will ever suffer an injury from ripping off a dew claw, and I know some people whose other breed dogs are injured this way repeatedly.


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## cookiepuppy (Aug 4, 2015)

snow0160 said:


> Question 1: There are quite a few standard poodles in my neighborhood and I noticed that majority of them have docked tails. I did a bit of research online and that it was originally docked for utilitarian purposes. What is the reason that they are docked today? Don't they need it for swimming? I don't have a purebred standard poodle but I did notice that on very rare occasions his tail would curl slightly at the end depending on how he carried it. I also saw that in many countries such as the UK, docking is illegal because it is inhumane. Why do we still do it in the United States?
> 
> 
> Question 2: Lucky's breeder (nice woman in her 80s) has been showing dogs with the AKC for 20 years and told me she always removed the dew claws when they are a few days old. She told me the reason was because it gets caught in things when they jump up. All my other dogs have dew claws and never had any issues. Most of my dogs are quite calm and don't jump up so maybe I am just inexperienced. But is there any other reasons for dew claw removal?
> ...


We leave dew claws and un-docked tails on all of our Standard Poodle litters.

Unless the dog is going to be shown in the ring, better to leave dew claws for this:






And that full, "un-docked" tail acts as a rudder in the water and air flap on the agility course.

Just our opinion, of course but we have some very happy puppy owners.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Hi Cookiepuppy! The video is really helpful and done really well. I'd make sure to stay away from icy lakes. I know that The Pyrenean Mountain Dog or the Great Pyrenees have double dew claw in the hind legs. This help them climb mountains--ie the French Alps. I had a mystery dog that we thought was a Pyrenees and your video reminded me of that fact. 

Lily's comparison to elective circumcision seems to be a good one. I think it is good that it is done when babies are young.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I had a beagle once who tore two dew claws. It was awful and the surgery to correct the problem was horrible as well, painful and with very large scars. I am glad to have had dogs since then who have had dew claws removed in infancy.

I wish there were no tail docking in the US. Iris had a very short dock, not a bunny tail, but short, but she had no issues as a result. It seems that in the 14 years since she was born the docks on Spoos are being done longer. Poppy has a long dock and it is so very pretty and graceful. Both pups were from well respected show lines, but the difference in tail length is significant. Poppy's tail is at least 2 times, or more, what Iris' tail was.

Here is a picture of Poppy's tail. Silly girl has her tongue hanging out, but at least you can see her pretty puppy tail length.

VQ


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## Summerhouse (Jun 12, 2015)

I didn't realize poodles had docked tails until I joined this forum. It's such a long dock anyway I always think of docked tails as the little stumps.

In UK a puppy that is going to be used as a working dog can have a certificate from the vet to have a legal dock. Such dogs as Pointers, Spaniels which are very full on when working can seriously damage a full tail. These dogs can't be shown at any UK dog show where the public pay an entrance fee, such as at Crufts.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Thanks for asking - since Babykin's has hers removed, we too will avoid icy bodies of water. That video was excellent.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I was so sure that I did not like a natural tail, until I saw my UK Poodle crush, Ricky, of Afterglow Kennels. For a natural tail, it seems a good length. Everything about him is perfection. Buck has already had two paw injuries, a torn carpal pad and a torn toe nail. I shudder at what would happen if he had dew claws.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I fostered another mystery puppy from the pound. It turned out to be an Australian Shepard. The Australian Shep Rescue told me that this puppy had a natural bobtail. I didn't know dogs can get them but it is a genetic mutation: T gene (C189G). I found a photo online... I thought his was quite interesting.


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

I always remove the dew claws on longhair breeds because it can and does get caught in the hair and sometimes people forget they're there and don't clip the nail. Tail docking I have no problem with a I have rotties with a docked tail and I have 1 with a natural tail I like both looks. As far as it being inhuman there are ways to do it that are painless and 100% stress free. I personally love the banding method using ortho bands the puppies never cry or show any discomfort and you get multiple chances to get the length right but only when you're first applying the bands you can't change your mind 2 days later.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

King Louie said:


> I always remove the dew claws on longhair breeds because it can and does get caught in the hair and sometimes people forget they're there and don't clip the nail. Tail docking I have no problem with a I have rotties with a docked tail and I have 1 with a natural tail I like both looks. As far as it being inhuman there are ways to do it that are painless and 100% stress free. I personally love the banding method using ortho bands the puppies never cry or show any discomfort and you get multiple chances to get the length right but only when you're first applying the bands you can't change your mind 2 days later.


You mean you cut twice ? I hope not, poor puppy...


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

Dechi said:


> King Louie said:
> 
> 
> > I always remove the dew claws on longhair breeds because it can and does get caught in the hair and sometimes people forget they're there and don't clip the nail. Tail docking I have no problem with a I have rotties with a docked tail and I have 1 with a natural tail I like both looks. As far as it being inhuman there are ways to do it that are painless and 100% stress free. I personally love the banding method using ortho bands the puppies never cry or show any discomfort and you get multiple chances to get the length right but only when you're first applying the bands you can't change your mind 2 days later.
> ...


No it's not cutting at all you're placing a tiny rubber band on the tail and basically it's cutting off blood supply to the part you don't want and the tail will naturally fall off within 3-5 days and it doesn't affect the puppies or cause any pain. I usually will place bands on a tail in 10 seconds and immediately after place them with mom and they will nurse immediately like nothing even happened.


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## Summerhouse (Jun 12, 2015)

They use the ortho bands on lambs to dock their tails. I'm guessing because there is very little risk of infection when out in the fields. Not heard of that method used on dogs before. Even better not to do it at all though.


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## Myleen (Apr 30, 2016)

I'm glad I did not have Tobys tail docked!

I'm also very glad his breeder removed his dew claws before I got him. 

I do not plan on showing my dog ... he is shown when I walk him around the neighborhood. The admiration from people is all the reward we need. :wink:

He is a star :star: in his own right!!


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Myleen said:


> he is shown when I walk him around the neighborhood. The admiration from people is all the reward we need. :wink:
> He is a star :star: in his own right!!



Haha I enjoy walking my dog around the neighborhood too. He gets a lot of admiration and makes people smile.


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

Summerhouse said:


> They use the ortho bands on lambs to dock their tails. I'm guessing because there is very little risk of infection when out in the fields. Not heard of that method used on dogs before. Even better not to do it at all though.


It's a very common method nowadays. It's not painful and completely stress free. Plus no need to take newborn puppies out and risk them catching something at the vets. It's mostly used on farms as a way to desex young males.


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

Dew claws are an interesting topic as I've heard both sides of the arguments from fellow agility enthusiasts. Elsie has her dewclaws and undocked tail as she came from a performance breeder and poodles with docked tails cannot compete internationally.


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## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

One breeder I know says she always docks the tails of her standard poodles because she places a lot of her dogs as service dogs, and this removes the chance the tails will get caught in wheelchair wheels.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Rory has his dewclaws and uses them all the time so I would hate for him to have had them removed. In Australia they are only generally removed if they are poorly attached, but then again we also don't allow other purely cosmetic procedures like tail docking.


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