# "Talking" Buzzers



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Peggy's Christmas present for my husband was spoiled today when it arrived on the front porch without any Amazon packaging:










Oops! Oh well.  What word shall we teach her first??


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Some context: Teaching Dogs to Talk? - The Other End of the Leash


----------



## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

OMG! I've been wanting to do this for SO long! Would be so helpful for an outside command, etc.

I've been fascinated with hungerforwords and bunny for ages.... and billy the cat!


----------



## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Peggy's Christmas present for my husband was spoiled today when it arrived on the front porch without any Amazon packaging:
> 
> View attachment 471868
> 
> ...


Very interesting! I think you should have a separate thread for this endeavor! I’m super curious as to what Peggy will learn and how you go about teaching her!


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Ava. said:


> OMG! I've been wanting to do this for SO long! Would be so helpful for an outside command, etc.
> 
> I've been fascinated with hungerforwords and bunny for ages.... and billy the cat!


My husband's _obsessed_ with Bunny's mirror video. It really is so cute.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Spottytoes said:


> Very interesting! I think you should have a separate thread for this endeavor! I’m super curious as to what Peggy will learn and how you go about teaching her!


I'm glad I took the time to research the process, because it's not what I would have thought. We'd have no trouble teaching Peggy to just hit a button, but apparently you don't want to directly teach that part. The idea is for them to watch you and then—eventually, hopefully—spontaneously do it on their own:

"Rushing the process would likely get your dog pushing buttons but not necessarily really understanding the meaning behind the button they push. Dogs who are rushed in the training process are also less likely to independently use the buttons to actively communicate."









Learn How To Teach Your Dog To Talk Using Dog Training Buttons


Have you ever wondered how to teach your dog to talk? Find out how dog training buttons can help you teach your dog to "talk" and communicate words to you.




www.akc.org





So I've already warned my husband it's going to take weeks (at least) of consistency from both of us before she learns her "first word." But I think it'll be worth it.

She's been really struggling to communicate with us lately. The other night she stared at my husband for five solid minutes. She wasn't hungry. She didn't want to go outside. She wasn't in the mood to play. I felt so bad for her! Eventually she just gave up.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Exciting! Looking forward to seeing how this works for you. I wonder how different it is from the "Show Me" command.


----------



## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

The video where bunny indicates a splinter in her foot is very cool. It would be so helpful to have your dogs be able to tell you when a certain part of their body hurts.


----------



## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

I got that for the cat. I wanted to know when she wants to go out. Not loud enough, have to be in the same room. I hope it works for you.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Ava. said:


> The video where bunny indicates a splinter in her foot is very cool. It would be so helpful to have your dogs be able to tell you when a certain part of their body hurts.


That's the dream!


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> Exciting! Looking forward to seeing how this works for you. I wonder how different it is from the "Show Me" command.


What does "Show Me" entail?


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Michigan Gal said:


> I got that for the cat. I wanted to know when she wants to go out. Not loud enough, have to be in the same room. I hope it works for you.


I've never wanted to train potty bells, but if I did, I'd probably get this doorbell:









MIGHTY PAW Smart Bell 2.0 Potty Training Dog Doorbell, White, 1 count - Chewy.com


Buy Mighty Paw Smart Bell 2.0 Potty Training Dog Doorbell, White, 1 count at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!




www.chewy.com





Seems like it requires a very light touch. Might be good for a cat? The receiver is easily portable, so you could move it from room to room.


----------



## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Yeaaaaaahhhhhhh I'm so glad you got one of these because poodles seem like the perfect subject and I've been fascinated by Billy the cat too. You and Peggy seem like advance level learners.


----------



## katmcg86 (Apr 23, 2019)

Let’s all get these for Christmas and make it the January trick to learn!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

I've been thinking about it, but there's not a single room where I spend most of my time, so having buttons (unless I had them all over the house) wouldn't be very practical.


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Very interested to see how this goes! 

Mom and I have been discussing this, but I can't think of what we would use them for. They look super cool though. Annie already has symbols for "I am hungry" (rattle around near the side door sniffing and poking her nose in things), "I need out" (banging the laundry room door which, strangely, is no where near the outside) and "is it bedtime yet?" (Random barking at nothing) and "I want pets" (jabbing us with her nose or staring). Plus a few others. It's kind of a 'what else would I want her to communicate with me?" Question. Potty bells, when I tried them, were very much abused.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Very interested to see how this goes!
> 
> Mom and I have been discussing this, but I can't think of what we would use them for. They look super cool though. Annie already has symbols for "I am hungry" (rattle around near the side door sniffing and poking her nose in things), "I need out" (banging the laundry room door which, strangely, is no where near the outside) and "is it bedtime yet?" (Random barking at nothing) and "I want pets" (jabbing us with her nose or staring). Plus a few others. It's kind of a 'what else would I want her to communicate with me?" Question. Potty bells, when I tried them, were very much abused.


Even though the surprise was spoiled today, I wrapped it up for Christmas because my husband says he wants to give her first word a lot of thought. I've never been interested in doing potty bells, mostly for the reason you described. And I suspect Peggy might abuse other buttons, too, when she's bored. So I want the options to be very specific and the results not especially exciting (beyond the excitement of being understood).

So no "treat." No "chicken" or other favourite foods. But we'll probably do one for kibble refills. Currently she slaps her empty plate when she wants more. 

And "outside" will only grant her access to her very dull puppy potty area. No backyard romp. We'll see how that goes. If she's bored enough, even requesting access to her dull puppy potty area might be tempting! But I'm willing to risk it so I don't have to struggle to decipher her long intense stares.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

katmcg86 said:


> Let’s all get these for Christmas and make it the January trick to learn!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wouldn't that be fun?? But I suspect, to do it properly, it might be more of a "trick of the year" than "trick of the month." Lol.

If anyone else does get them, let me know! I can create a space for us to help each other out and share our progress. 

Here's the link if you like Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Learning-Res...-Buzzers/dp/B00HT5HBMO/ref=asc_df_B00HT5HBMO/


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Basil_the_Spoo said:


> Yeaaaaaahhhhhhh I'm so glad you got one of these because poodles seem like the perfect subject and I've been fascinated by Billy the cat too. You and Peggy seem like advance level learners.


Since day 1, I've marvelled at her efforts—good, bad, and sometimes very bad—to communicate with us. I just hope I can explain these tools to her in a way she can understand. 

I've never studied language (beyond basic French!) so I'll be learning along with her.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

PeggyTheParti said:


> What does "Show Me" entail?


Show Me is my cue (I may have discussed it here before) for her to "show me" what she wants. Physically my cue is to stand beside her in line with her hips, so she can take the lead... often to the kitchen, sometimes the back door, once she lead me to her leash and nosed it, and frequently to her toy bin and then her dog bed.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> Show Me is my cue (I may have discussed it here before) for her to "show me" what she wants. Physically my cue is to stand beside her in line with her hips, so she can take the lead... often to the kitchen, sometimes the back door, once she lead me to her leash and nosed it, and frequently to her toy bin and then her dog bed.


Oh yes! Good one! Sounds like you guys understand each other just fine.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I will follow your progress with interest. I suspect most communication in our house is covered by More treats, Food time, Make the cat/Poppy move, Flump the blanket, Pee, Walk, Play, Bedtime, and Not Fair, all of which are fairly easy to interpret from situation, stares and body language, but it is always possible I am missing deep and meaningful thoughts. Anything that breaks down the artificial differentiation between "human" and "animal" is a good thing, I think. 

On a slightly different tack, after reading about the use of these buttons I got to thinking about pairing a concept with a suitable smell. If the Yard button smelled of the earth and dead leaves outside the door, and the Beach button of seaweed and salt water, would it speed up the association, I wonder?


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Genius, FJM.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

fjm said:


> ...all of which are fairly easy to interpret from situation, stares and body language...


This is what I'm struggling with. What does Peggy have a hard time communicating? Ideally, that's all I'd use the buttons for.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Catch 22 - I see the problem!


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I wonder if you could teach ' I think there is someone on the driveway' as a button. The dogs have no issue communicating that already, but it's not exactly the way I want them communicating it! (Bark bark bark bark bark).


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I wonder if you could teach ' I think there is someone on the driveway' as a button. The dogs have no issue communicating that already, but it's not exactly the way I want them communicating it! (Bark bark bark bark bark).


Um. I LOVE that idea. 

I'm going to make a list of things she communicates in less-than-pleasant ways and use that as a starting point.


----------



## ThePoodlesMoody (Nov 2, 2020)

In regards to the potty button you mentioned...

They are NOT quite as sensitive as I would like. The reviews made it sound like it was really easy to push, but when you're a 7 pound poodle it's quite a lot of effort!  So far the best I've been able to do was teach them to touch it, not fully press it. And then we got puppy and, well, my life is now upsidedown andI am a puppy zombie!


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Not sure which was chicken and which was egg, but you tripped my memory. I saw or read about this somewhere, sometime in the not too long ago. I'd forgotten about this and am intrigued again .









Training A Dog To “Speak” With A Sound Board


The field of Augmentative and Alternative Communciation (AAC) covers communication methods used by those who are unable to otherwise produce or comprehend spoken or written language. Many will be f…




hackaday.com


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> Not sure which was chicken and which was egg, but you tripped my memory. I saw or read about this somewhere, sometime in the not too long ago. I'd forgotten about this and am intrigued again .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I shared a link about Christina Hunger and her dog Stella at the start of this thread, but I really should have included it in my initial post.

Bunny is another fun one to follow on social media:


__
http://instagr.am/p/CIyK42Phrgb/


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

My husband recorded his first word: "Outside." 

He placed the buzzer on the floor by the door, tapped it, and then took her out front for a quick potty. Five minutes later, as he's back to relaxing on the couch and I'm working on Christmas dinner, we hear a voice from the front hall....

"Outside."


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

A couple of hours later, she pressed it again when she had to pee. But she used her nose instead of her paw. Is there a reason she should be using her paw? That's how Stella and Bunny press their buttons.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am very impressed with how quickly she caught on! I think some dogs are more inclined to paw at things to make them do something, and some to use a nose prod. I wouldn't risk confusing her by trying to teach a particular method.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

fjm said:


> I am very impressed with how quickly she caught on! I think some dogs are more inclined to paw at things to make them do something, and some to use a nose prod. I wouldn't risk confusing her by trying to teach a particular method.


It was a little eerie! At first we thought maybe it was just a fluke, but the second time I actually saw her do it, quite deliberately.

She's always been very proddy with her nose, so it makes sense that would come more naturally to her. Will be interesting to see if she progresses to a paw, though. She's definitely been getting better lately at using her paws to get balls out from under furniture. I think it requires more coordination, which comes with maturity.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Ditto FJM, that's quite impressive. I wonder if dogs feel empowered with these buttons, awed to give voice to their needs. With time, you might have another Chaser.

You may be right about nose/paw preference changing over time. You can see the same shift when playing with Nina Ottoson toys: some dogs nose, some paw, but in my limited experience, it changes with age, perhaps reinforced by humans who tend to respond more to paw than to nose.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> Ditto FJM, that's quite impressive. I wonder if dogs feel empowered with these buttons, awed to give voice to their needs. With time, you might have another Chaser.
> 
> You may be right about nose/paw preference changing over time. You can see the same shift when playing with Nina Ottoson toys: some dogs nose, some paw, but in my limited experience, it changes with age, perhaps reinforced by humans who tend to respond more to paw than to nose.


What a fantastic video! I love how hard she had to think at the end, and how willingly she performed for the strange human and his camera crew. That's impressive.

Did you see Skidboot on Oprah, way back in the day? 




That episode left a real mark on me. And watching cattle dogs and other herding breeds in our training classes, I can see how they thrive on repetition. That's not Peggy's temperament _at all_. Lol. But she's been a persistent communicator since day 1, so I do think she'll appreciate having this new "voice."


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Did you see Skidboot on Oprah, way back in the day?


That's a great video! And I agree with you - herding dogs thrive on repetition in a way poodles do NOT. When I trained agility with Mia, I learned quickly that I could ask her to do something twice, but if I asked a third time, she'd get creative and free-style around the field, with a big grin and an enthusiastic tail. I couldn't help but laugh, which of course reinforced her shenanigans.


----------



## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

Liz and Parti, I think that is why it's necessary for people to find out about dog breeds before choosing, even a mixed breed. Golden Retrievers will do the same command/action over and over and over. Cairn terriers won't. Poodles won't.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Michigan Gal said:


> Liz and Parti, I think that is why it's necessary for people to find out about dog breeds before choosing, even a mixed breed. Golden Retrievers will do the same command/action over and over and over. Cairn terriers won't. Poodles won't.


Was definitely serendipitous that I ended up with a breed that loathes repetition as much as I do! That's not something that showed up in any of the poodle descriptions I read.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> That's a great video! And I agree with you - herding dogs thrive on repetition in a way poodles do NOT. When I trained agility with Mia, I learned quickly that I could ask her to do something twice, but if I asked a third time, she'd get creative and free-style around the field, with a big grin and an enthusiastic tail. I couldn't help but laugh, which of course reinforced her shenanigans.


Haha! Yes! So poodley.

I recently had to remind my husband not to repeatedly ask for his favourite silly trick (a paw to his outstretched foot). I could see Peggy getting frustrated, trying to understand why the perfect paw she was offering was apparently not perfect.

She also started adding a leap to the left/right spin commands. She'd get frustrated by the third or fourth rep and go airborne. Then he'd think "Eek!" and end on _that_ note. So of course she started offering up the "creative version" on the first ask.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Haha! Yes! So poodley.
> 
> I recently had to remind my husband not to repeatedly ask for his favourite silly trick (a paw to his outstretched foot). I could see Peggy getting frustrated, trying to understand why the perfect paw she was offering was apparently not perfect.
> 
> She also started adding a leap to the left/right spin commands. She'd get frustrated by the third or fourth rep and go airborne. Then he'd think "Eek!" and end on _that_ note. So of course she started offering up the "creative version" on the first ask.


Lol, Peggy really is a perfect poodle. She'll have your husband trained in time!

I'm thinking as I type, and it's hard to not anthropomorphize, but I really do think frustration is part of it. There's definitely a point where they look at you with exasperation: Why are you asking me to do this, when I _just_ did it?! Head cocked, disgusted look, just like a teenager. And then you can see the lightbulb go off as they think of a way to _mostly_ do what you asked but differently - walk all the way around the car to get to the open door in front of them (Mia, in her best poodle prance), or leap when turning (Peggy, aka Super Dog). Poodles just get bored very quickly.

And Michigander, you're absolutely correct. Poodles are highly trainable but not as biddable as other breeds, which make them difficult dogs for many owners.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

You nailed it, Liz. Imagine someone asking you "What's 10 + 10?" You say "20" and they reply, "What's 10 + 10?"

ARGH.

I love picturing Mia taking the scenic route to the open car door.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I love picturing Mia taking the scenic route to the open car door.


She taught herself this trick when she was around 1.5 years old, and she still prances when she does it -- which is 9 times out of 10. The tricks they teach themselves are always their favorites.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Interestingly Sophy is the more creative thinker of my two. Poppy flings herself into games like Sit/Down, practically levitating even when flat to the floor. Sophy does a couple, then tries to work out at what point the treat will appear. If it was at Sit last time she will stay sitting - why waste energy? And all too often a request is met with Why? But I was very pleased with her yesterday for _not _chasing a squirrel out of the park gate, so she is good about the important things. 

Have you decided on what the next word will be? I suspect differentiating between buttons is the next light bulb moment. Fascinating to follow Peggy's progress.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

fjm said:


> Have you decided on what the next word will be? I suspect differentiating between buttons is the next light bulb moment. Fascinating to follow Peggy's progress.


My husband chose "ball," which will be useful when she's misplaced it under a piece of furniture. It will also be immediately rewarding, which is good. "Outside" isn't very exciting, as it just gets her a short potty outing.

I recorded the ball button, and then pressed it a few times in a row, grabbing and tossing a ball each time. As _soon_ as I stopped and walked away, she pressed it herself. I didn't see if she used her paw or her nose. I know she's just mimicking me at this point, but it's nice that she's so excited to interact with it.

Oh!! She just did it again, this time definitely with her paw. I took a break from typing to have a little ball party.  I was worried when I saw her go right back to the button, thinking "This is going to get old fast...." But she stared at it for a minute, then lay down and now's she's fast asleep. Amazing how content (and tired!) she is after learning something new.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

(Next up will be "kibble." She's allowed as much as she wants during the day, and currently slaps her empty plate--loudly!--with a paw when she's hungry. Not my favourite sound.)


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I realized this morning that I do word differentiation with Poppy all the time, but wasn't really conscious of it. Our morning routine starts with letting the dogs out, followed by feeding them, and then I relax with coffee and the news (in so far as one _can_ relax when reading the news), and Poppy alternates snoozing and telling me she (a) needs to go out to see if any of the cats' food has fallen on the ground; or (b) needs to go out for a poo; or (c) it's time we went up to the bathroom for scrummy toothpaste. Asked which it is she will bark and bounce for the right word "outside" v "bathroom". Now if only we could fine tune it down to "Cat food" v "Poo"...!


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I admire how clearly Poppy speaks to you, FJM. Mia is subtle, staring back at me when I question her, maybe a flick of her eyes, but never clearly a flick of "yes" or a flick of "no." Nevertheless, sometimes I do have an inkling of what she wants - how, I don't know - and when in doubt, which is the majority of the time, I have the "show me" command. She can be surprisingly coy when leading me, a few steps forward, a step back and to the side, tail wagging, then another step forward. She has no problems whacking me in the head with her paw, so I know she's fully capable of being straightforward. Maybe a lesson from Poppy on how to communicate with humans would set her straight?


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sophy is another who relies on thought transfer - she starts with a long stare and the tiniest of eye flicks, but gradually gets "louder" with bigger gestures if I am slow to respond. I suspect she considers Poppy's more direct methods rather rude!


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

We’ve had only a _single_ button push since my last update: “Outside.” She did it with her paw.

My husband’s still invested, which is good. But I don’t do well without immediate (or at least immediate-ish) gratification. This makes me a lousy dog trainer, I know. Lol.

One thing I’ve been making an effort on is giving her clear verbal choices, much like you do with Poppy @fjm. If she’s restless or staring at me, I will ask her if she’s hungry. If I don’t get a response, I will ask her if she needs to go outside. If she doesn’t race to the door, I go back to what I was doing.

I’m trying to push her beyond communicating with her eyes or the dreaded paw smacks. They’re too easy to dismiss as Annoying Poodle behaviours rather than requests.

@Liz, if I tell Peggy to “show me,” nine times out of ten she’ll just lead me to a toy. But I guess that makes sense. She’s still got that puppy play drive.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oh! Peggy did recently have a diarrhea episode after trying raw beef for the first time, and she communicated her urgency by racing to each of our doors, one after another. If ever there was a time for her to use the “Outside” buzzer, that was it! But nope.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

PeggyTheParti said:


> @Liz, if I tell Peggy to “show me,” nine times out of ten she’ll just lead me to a toy. But I guess that makes sense. She’s still got that puppy play drive.


Sounds like the command is working!

As for the button, does she need a refresher?


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> Sounds like the command is working!
> 
> As for the button, does she need a refresher?


We press it whenever we take her outside. But I wonder if there’s something else we should be doing.

It would be easy to teach her to hit it on command, but I’ve read it’s important that they observe for as long as it takes them to mimic on their own.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Well, my patience finally wore out! And since it’s my birthday, I decided it was okay to have a little fun.

I recorded the word “treat” on two buzzers and set them up about 8’ apart on the rug where we do lots of playing and training. The moment I put one down, she pushed it with her paw, unprompted, and I rewarded her. This is what she usually does, and then shows zero interest in further engagement, so I walked over to the other button and broke the #1 rule: I asked her to push it.

_Treat! _

Then back to the first one. _Treat!_

As you can see, she really got into the game:






But I guess even the best games get tiring, and here’s what eventually happened:






Lol.


----------



## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

She is doing so good!

I'd probably take the same approach, I don't care to hear my dog "talk" on his own, I just want practical cues like "outside"


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Peggy is so cute in your videos and yes, she was finished with training when she sat down. Maybe teaching her to sit on the buzz is your next trick? Just joking.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Peggy ignored her buttons all day. Tonight I was feeling a little lazy after dinner and decided to watch the news when usually I’d be doing a training session with her and her evening kibble.

I‘d just gotten comfy on the couch when I heard a small voice behind me:

“Treat!”

How could I resist? So I got up and started training. Partway through, she was getting frustrated because I was asking her to go around the dining room table when usually that command is just to go around something small like a bucket.

“Treat!”

“Treat! Treat! Treat!”

She hit the button with her paw. She hit it with her nose. She tried both in rapid succession. She stared at me indignantly.

Finally she went around the table. 

When the training session was done, I settled back in and saw her head back to the button. “Oh no,” I thought. “I’ve created a monster.” But she simply gave it a sniff and then settled in with me.

It’s worth noting that when I’ve tried to skip evening training in the past, Peggy’s responded by being very annoying. She’ll paw at me. Stare at me. Just generally be a pest. I think tonight’s efficient communication was a relief for both of us.


----------



## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

I loved the videos you posted of Peggy!!! Especially the longer one where we really got to see her in action. She is too cute. ❤


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

She’s such a funny girl. As you could probably hear in those videos, we had a good laugh at her button breakthrough. And I’m happy to say she continues to use them completely appropriately.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Is she using both words, or just "Treat"?


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

fjm said:


> Is she using both words, or just "Treat"?


Just the two treat buttons. Since that initial experimenting, she’s not touched the outside button again. Not even playfully. I definitely don’t think she’s made the connection between it and the need to pee or poo, possibly because we take her outside so regularly.

Tonight she really wanted something and I never did figure out what it was. She didn’t want to play or train or eat or go outside, but she was persistently nudging me and then resting her head on my leg. When I tried to pet her, she dodged my hand a few times, staring deep into my eyes like I should know better. Finally she grudgingly cuddled in close for some affection, but it was clear it wasn’t what she was asking for.

These are the moments I really want to give her a voice. I just have to figure out what she’s trying to say first!


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Those time ARE frustrating, Robin. Did you try "show me?" Did she lead you to her toy basket?


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> Those time ARE frustrating, Robin. Did you try "show me?" Did she lead you to her toy basket?


Lol. No toy basket this time. Just an awkward wander around the living room while she kept looking back at me.

I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be for an intelligent poodle to not be able to express their needs to a human.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Lol. No toy basket this time. Just an awkward wander around the living room while she kept looking back at me.
> 
> I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be for an intelligent poodle to not be able to express their needs to a human.


There are times when I feel like I'm really letting her down and just repeat "show me" 3-4-5 times or more trying to figure it out. This may sound dumb, but I'm in awe of how easily dogs communicate with each other, realizing that I understand 1/1-millionth of what she expresses. We just got back fro a hike with her best bud, Eddie, and the way they effortlessly work together is really beautiful.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I so agree! I will sometimes take slow-motion video of Peggy and her friend in play, so I can analyze it afterwards. Whole conversations in seconds. Just incredible.

Hope Mia enjoyed her hike today.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Bunny is blowing me away today:

__
http://instagr.am/p/CKT-LXshgkX/


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Wow, that's really incredible. The "oops" button has to be a higher order of thinking. This is a great series, Robin, thanks for sharing. A real treat.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Peggy continues using her “Treat” buttons.

Tonight my husband and I were chatting in the kitchen while Peggy hung out at our feet, bored. I didn’t even notice she’d left until I heard a small voice calling “Treat!” from the dining room.

She also uses these buttons when she’s frustrated, in situations where she previously would have gotten chatty with me, such as when I ask for a _good_ right spin instead of a sloppy one. (She prefers spinning left. Lol.)

“Treat! Treat! Treat!”

I know she’s not actually saying the word, but it changes the dynamic in these moments, reminding me that she’s trying to communicate a desire to me rather than just being “stubborn” or “annoying.”


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

That is a really interesting point - communication rather than "stubbornness". It is something I got badly wrong when Sophy was young and I accepted the agility instructors' view that she would not jump because I was insufficiently motivating rather than listening to Sophy, who was telling me that jumping hurt her back. They were all experienced, reward based trainers, but Sophy was my dog, and I knew her better than anyone. I learned the importance of advocating for your dog, but still feel badly that it took me so wrong to realise.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Hey PtP - Christina Hunger (previous thread) recommends using Peggy's buttons as you talk with her. I'm so curious to try this with Mia, but at 10.5 years old I don't know if she has the neural plasticity to learn speech. Hunger started with her own dog as soon as she came home at 8 weeks old, and that early exposure probably makes a huge difference.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> Hey PtP - Christina Hunger (previous thread) recommends using Peggy's buttons as you talk with her. I'm so curious to try this with Mia, but at 10.5 years old I don't know if she has the neural plasticity to learn speech. Hunger started with her own dog as soon as she came home at 8 weeks old, and that early exposure probably makes a huge difference.


Did you see the video of baby Stella learning to use her first button?? Cutest thing I’ve ever seen.

I would love to try with my next puppy. But I do wonder how a dog raised this way manages when the buttons aren’t available. Wouldn’t it be frustrating?


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

fjm said:


> That is a really interesting point - communication rather than "stubbornness". It is something I got badly wrong when Sophy was young and I accepted the agility instructors' view that she would not jump because I was insufficiently motivating rather than listening to Sophy, who was telling me that jumping hurt her back. They were all experienced, reward based trainers, but Sophy was my dog, and I knew her better than anyone. I learned the importance of advocating for your dog, but still feel badly that it took me so wrong to realise.


Poor Sophy.  I bet this happens a lot. As much as we try, we humans just don’t speak dog.

SpiritDog Training shared some great wisdom a while back on the topic of “stubbornness”:









There Are No Stubborn Dogs


“My dog can do it but he doesn’t want to!” “My dog has a mind of his own.” “My dog is just really stubborn.” We all have heard (and probably said, or at least thought) these statements often. Can dogs (and other animals) truly be stubborn? Like many other times, this is us using an exclusively...




spiritdogtraining.com





This is good, too:


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I would love to try with my next puppy. But I do wonder how a dog raised this way manages when the buttons aren’t available. Wouldn’t it be frustrating?


Have you watched the documentary on Chantek? It requires kleenex.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> Have you watched the documentary on Chantek? It requires kleenex.


I haven’t. And now I really want to, but I already feel myself getting teary! I don’t handle animal movies very well.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I haven’t. And now I really want to, but I already feel myself getting teary! I don’t handle animal movies very well.


I find it helps to stop the film (or put down the book) when you hit a happy point with about 20 minutes left.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Lol. That sounds doable for me, although sometimes the happy parts hit me the hardest.

This really deserves its own thread, but have you seen Quill?










I first saw it at the Toronto International Film festival with an audience that included a row of service dogs and their handlers. Ohhhhh the sobbing. I have the DVD but am scared to watch it again.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

PeggyTheParti said:


> This really deserves its own thread, but have you seen Quill?
> 
> I first saw it at the Toronto International Film festival with an audience that included a row of service dogs and their handlers. Ohhhhh the sobbing. I have the DVD but am scared to watch it again.


The Japanese sure know how to craft heartwrenching tales involving dogs. I will add Quill to the list with Hachi as movies to never watch.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I've been thinking more about these videos, Robin, and the insight they provide into dogs' thinking. Obviously, they think a lot about playing and eating, but they also think about how nice the day is, getting out of the house for a while, or even having a few minutes to themselves away from their owners. I've seen Mia express these interests, and her way of communicating preferences usually involves eye contact, pawing and licking. To see my hunches confirmed, though, is deeply impactful. I'll work a little harder when she communicates.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> I've been thinking more about these videos, Robin, and the insight they provide into dogs' thinking. Obviously, they think a lot about playing and eating, but they also think about how nice the day is, getting out of the house for a while, or even having a few minutes to themselves away from their owners. I've seen Mia express these interests, and her way of communicating preferences usually involves eye contact, pawing and licking. To see my hunches confirmed, though, is deeply impactful. I'll work a little harder when she communicates.


I’ve never been comfortable with the idea of “owning” an animal, and Bunny’s Instagram account is really such a wonderful reminder that our dogs are complex, autonomous beings with their own thoughts, wants, and needs.

More than any dog I’ve had or known, Peggy also makes this clear to me—I can see her frustration when she can’t communicate. Even worse, I can see when she just gives up. 

But I can also see how thrilled she is when I “get” it. And while I’m not exactly nailing this whole button thing, I’m committed to increasing those breakthrough moments in her life.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Hooray!









How Stella Learned to Talk by Christina Hunger | Buy the book


How Stella Learned to Talk is the incredible true story of Stella, the world's first talking dog, and a simple guide to teach your dog to talk from speech-language pathologist Christina Hunger.




www.hungerforwords.com


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Thanks for the heads-up!


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Funny new development: The past couple of days we’ve caught Peggy trying to “push” her toys. She does it with great enthusiasm (just like she pushes the buttons) and then stands still, waiting for something to happen. So far we’ve seen her do it with her soccer ball and her wool dryer ball. 

She also continues to use the treat buttons when she’s frustrated during training sessions, and tonight she wandered off to push one when I was concentrating on cutting my husband’s hair.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I love the experimental approach - "What happens if I press this one? Or this one?" And it sounds as if the "Treat" button now means "I'm bored with this, let's play something more rewarding".


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Lol. Want to hear what’s on your dog’s mind? Be careful what you wish for....









I Am Bunny on Instagram: "I swear to god I’m trying to help advance science🤦‍♀️🤷‍♀️ ⁣ .⁣ .⁣ .⁣ .⁣ .⁣ #doodledailyposts #languagedevelopment #instadog #dogcommunication #animalcommunication #doglover #buttontraining #petsofinstagram #mydogtalks #dogsofinstagram #talkingdog #hunger4words #dogmom #doodlelove #doodlesofig #smartdog #whataboutbunny #fleuntpet"


I Am Bunny shared a post on Instagram: "I swear to god I’m trying to help advance science🤦‍♀️🤷‍♀️ ⁣ .⁣ .⁣ .⁣ .⁣ .⁣ #doodledailyposts #languagedevelopment #instadog #dogcommunication #animalcommunication #doglover #buttontraining #petsofinstagram #mydogtalks #dogsofinstagram #talkingdog...




www.instagram.com


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Lol. Want to hear what’s on your dog’s mind? Be careful what you wish for....


They're as obsessed with ours as we are with theirs!


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

So funny, @Liz.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

HOORAY!!! Peggy chose to not do a morning poop today, so instead of giving her multiple (exhausting) opportunities, we carried on with our day. I was chatting with my husband in his office when I heard a small voice from the hall: 

“Outside!”

I ripped off her diaper, flung the door open, and we had a poop within seconds. Success!!

Most excitingly, my suspicions were confirmed: She understood the meaning of the button, but just hadn’t had a need for it yet.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Victoire! Allez-y Peggy!


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Wow, Peggy, always knew you were a smartie, now your mom has proof.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

What a clever girl! How long is it since she last used that button? It must be quite a feat of memory.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

fjm said:


> What a clever girl! How long is it since she last used that button? It must be quite a feat of memory.


We set it up a month ago and she used it on her own that very first day. She did it twice, a couple of hours apart, like she was testing it out. That was neat. But since then she’s only pushed it once except when we’ve asked her to. And that one time didn’t seem to be in the context of actually needing to go out. More like curiosity.

There was even a day when she had urgent diarrhea. She communicated her need by running to each of our doors, one after another, completely ignoring the button.

I think it was introducing the “Treat” buttons that made it finally click for her. About half an hour before she used the “Outside” button today, she actually bumped me a couple of times with her nose. On one hand, I was bad for ignoring her. On the other hand, it forced her to problem solve as her need got more urgent.


----------

