# My PTSD poo was bit last eveing.. LONG



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

This is a hard one. I don't think the police will do a thing as her dog bit a dog not a person. You should contact the woman and let her know you will be visiting the doctor to examine your injury and expect her to foot the bill. Perhaps this will make her realize she needs to get control of her dog.


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## all that jazz (Feb 6, 2011)

Soooo sorry to hear about what happened. This is definitely NOT a service dog if he bites and is so reactive. I would report the incident. As a service dog he can go places and people will assume he is trained well and that he won't bite. That puts them at risk.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I can buy that pink cape on Amazon as I am sure this woman did. He is not a service dog. Very irresponsible people do this which makes it more difficult for true service dogs.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

McStargazer2: Sorry you have been having some difficulties. The first suggestion I would make is keep the flexi at home for now and get a good 6' lead --- you be able to be in control much more. The flexi is a topic on another thread and it's not for everyone nor every dog. Personally, I love them, but Sunny is not reactive at all and walks a solid heel, and I feel after 30 years of operating a flexi, I should have a FL (flexi license) (Ha).

Also, just know that it takes much more than 16 days to work with behavior modification -- just don't get discouraged.....be consistent, calm, kind, reassuring and it will pay off in the end. I think more important than documenting what someone else or their dog did, you should work hard to be sure that incident does not influence Beau and just continue on reinforcing positives...

Also, remember there are ALL kinds of dogs including lots from rescue and many times new owners don't really know their dogs and people who really shouldn't own dogs out there.....so you have to "drive defensively" if you know what I mean.


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

I don't pretend do understand all bite laws....I didn't get a bite...I was wrapped up by the ankles with the leash with her dog tied to me and my dog his hanging in the air to keep him safe.

I know I CANNOT allow this to go "unreported" so to speak. She was so proud of herself about getting the "service dog" cape. ...What if it were a child? another dog,... a baby who was in a stroller? 

It's early on the East Coast...I have a little bit of time to figure it out...just clueless as to who I report it to.

Thanks


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Reflecting back on what I said perhaps you should report this to the police. You were not bit but you were injured and the woman had her dog on a leash but she was not in control of the dog. If you feel the dog is a danger to others someone should be notified. How vicious was the attack? Was it a nip or a mini Cujo incident?


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

So sorry Beau and you had that experience. Unfortunately many people with small dogs are oblivious to the chance that they may be aggressive. I help at a training facility & we see it all the time. Not to mention on a flexi while you ride in a scooter. Absolutely no control! Don't even get me started on the service dog stuff when the dog is not trained/certified. 

I hope that your vet finds no injuries & clears you guy. Many times when dealing with a dog that has some issues like yours you have to step back & start over. Patience will be key
It sounds like you had made great progress & you will be able to do so again. It will take time but it seems Beau has a wonderful mom that will do anything to help him succeed. I feel that once he regains his confidence it would be worthwhile to introduce dogs that are friendly & safe. This may be very intensive starting with the dog very far away from you & lots of treats for good behavior. Slowly decrease the distance & stop at the point where Beau is uncomfortable. It would be a good idea to speak with local trainers about the issue for guidance. I would explain the issues you have been working with. They may have access to dogs & owners suited to helping you with the process. 

As far as reporting the incident, I think you should. Just because dog is 3# doesn't mean that they aren't a danger to people or other dogs. The police might not take you seriously if you don't want to press charges but at least something will be on file. You are right to report it. 

Again I am so sorry for your experience.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

Oh I don't use a flexi---- retractable leash! Beau was on his 6 foot leash!! with a harness so if he pulls the pressure is not on the brachial / airways.

The _other dog _was on the retractable leash... I blame the owner not the dog. Any dog can make a great "service dog" which is also another topic for another thread! 

You're right 16 days is nothing. I need to remember this!!!!  Thank you...

BTW, I'm a native Floridian, with paternal family from Chicago area: Tinley Park, DeerField... Cook County...It's north of you I think... We used to summer in your area on the lake!!! VERY cold lake!!!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

The incident wasn't gory at all. 
The other dog nipped Beau first. 
Beau jumped up to all four paws and yelped. 
The other dog went after him again, bit his upper hind leg area.

My reflex was to pull Beau directly up knowing the harness would support him and not injury his neck. So Beau was in the air about a foot while the other dog held on to the back side area. The girl in the scooter was yelling NO NO NO...Her dog let go but couldn't retreat because the retractable leash was wrapped around my ankles... Perhaps police just not 911 with sirens. I am thinking that I need to go to speak to the woman first. 

The "service dog" cape ...needs to go...ADA laws I know. Bite laws...not at all! LOL


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Check your local laws. There may be a penalty for dog on dog attacks. In NY if a dog attacks any animal it is a violation of the dangerous dog law. I would get yourself to a doctor and Beau to the vet to document any actual injuries. BTW, not to add to your misery, one of my brother's dogs was bitten on the neck and they initially thought she was fine, but the next morning the dog had a big swollen neck from infection in puncture wounds that didn't bleed when the bite was given. Give Beau another good going over.

I agree with CT Girl about the "service dog" thing. This lady should be reported for that too. Fake service dogs definitely are a problem since they make it hard for people who have real service dogs to use them as truly needed. I think this is part of what you should report. You may want to check local law about service dog standards and certifications as well. I can't imagine any circumstance where a service dog would work on a flexi leash!

Now here is the good news, many people and dogs get over these events just fine. There are folks here on PF who have had terrible attacks on their dogs happen and now are doing agility and all sorts of other fabulous things with their wonderful and loving dogs. I know you are really angry (justifiably so) right now, but Beau will be reading your emotions. You need to try to calm down. Turn your anger about what happened into action to keep it from happening again by doing your research and sending your medical and vet bill to this woman so she understands she cannot allow this to happen again. If you move past the emotional aspects of this you will be helping Beau to do so as well. Please keep updating us and we will be here to help.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I do think talking to the woman first is the way to go. Not gory but her dog is definitely pretty aggressive. Not just content with a nip but continuing the attack. The fact that this woman purchased the service dog cape would make me more inclined to report her. If it was an elderly lady who just didn't know her dog is dog aggressive it is one thing but once her got that cape for her it just escalates the danger level exponentially. My nieces trained three dogs to be service dogs. One did not make it as he is too sensitive but all are exceptionally mild mannered as you would expect of a service dog. They had extensive training and behavior assessments. These fakers really irk me.


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

liljaker
As far as reporting the incident said:


> I found the solution. ANIMAL CONTROL. They take the report and issue citations etc...Also, it seemed the officer was just as concerned that this dog is used as a "service dog" and untrained.
> 
> 
> This is were people who need & use service dogs get a bad rap. People use emotional support animals & call them service dogs UGHHHH
> ...


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

CT Girl said:


> I do think talking to the woman first is the way to go.
> 
> YOU GIVE GREAT ADVICE!!! I'm so used to doing the "communicating thing....a nip...okay so they don't get along...when it bit and hung on that's when my anger was stoked .... that and the fact that I had to untangle the dog from me... YOU ARE RIGHT! I don't have to talk to this person. I feel more responsible to report....
> 
> ...


Trying to be calm and focusing on "how to move forward" is the only thing I can do now... back to basics...training continues. No work for the next 5 days so plenty of bonding to continue Yes!!!


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

I think the important thing to realize is that this could be a bonding incident for you and Beau. (Trying to find a silver lining here...) Beau was attacked and you tried to protect him. I have to think he knew that you were trying to get him out of the situation. I am sure he was spooked...but you did the right things...checked him out and then went on about your business (ignoring him)! Kudos!

The important thing is to not feel sorry for him or additional anxiety... he'll pick up on it...and it's a sign of weakness to them. Try to turn it around... he wasn't hurt any worse than he was. Something positive... heck...even that Animal Control can help you with the whole fake service dog issue.... that's positive. 

I do agree... both of you should get to the dr to have it documented.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

McStargazer2 said:


> You're right 16 days is nothing. I need to remember this!!!!  Thank you...


Absolutely! It took five years to get rid of Tonka's leash aversion.



McStargazer2 said:


> I found the solution. ANIMAL CONTROL. They take the report and issue citations etc...Also, it seemed the officer was just as concerned that this dog is used as a "service dog" and untrained.


Untrained, store-bought, so called, 'Service Dogs'! Grrrrrr.....

Sooooo glad that Animal Control is involved . . . 'coz they don't like that trend either! :devil: heehee

And FlexiClowns! Arrrrrgh... Stop that would'ja! You're making me look bad...


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

This is a snarky comment, so I apologize ahead of time.... 
Wouldn't the retractable leash be a dead give away that this dog is not a service dog? 
Remington has a vest, with handle that we use, and then has a thick leash that attaches to that. I have never once seen a service dog that had a retractable leash.... 
I agree with CT, and Countryboy, it is very frustrating for people to buy something to slap on their untrained dog and call it a service animal. 
I know that I have been questioned about Remington, and under the state law here, the dog must be able to perform a minimum of three services for the person. Training is on going... I am very sorry that poor Beau was bitten, that would be traumatic for any dog! 
The foot warmer - adorable.  
Good luck with talking to that woman, I am not sure that I would, as it might be unsafe. Did I read correctly that this is in an apartment complex? If so, please let the manager know... Aggressive dogs do not need to be around children.


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

hopetocurl said:


> I think the important thing to realize is that this could be a bonding incident for you and Beau. (Trying to find a silver lining here...) Beau was attacked and you tried to protect him. I have to think he knew that you were trying to get him out of the situation. I am sure he was spooked...but you did the right things...checked him out and then went on about your business (ignoring him)! Kudos!
> 
> The important thing is to not feel sorry for him or additional anxiety... he'll pick up on it...and it's a sign of weakness to them. Try to turn it around... he wasn't hurt any worse than he was. Something positive... heck...even that Animal Control can help you with the whole fake service dog issue.... that's positive.
> 
> I do agree... both of you should get to the dr to have it documented.




Thanks for reminding me...accept for this forum, I am doing unnecessary house chores LOL 1) so he gets used to vaccuming etc & 2) I want him to self - soothe. 

In many ways this is like when he went to the vet and had his anal glands expressed...he leaped into my arms for the first time and put his face under my arm pit (as if that was going to save him... ) He comes over to check out what I'm doing. .... 

Waiting for animal control officer now. 

Thanks for the sagely advice. It keeps me composed & going!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

sweetheartsrodeo said:


> This is a snarky comment, so I apologize ahead of time....
> Wouldn't the retractable leash be a dead give away that this dog is not a service dog?
> 
> I just laughed so hard...at that comment. Can I say "Duh?" Two days ago she told me about the cape...and I was angry then. I also said that Beau is new to me and out of rescue so I am enforcing a no contact rule and no dog rule until we get to know each other.
> ...


OM Gosh... Mind reader much!!
Apartment complex yes. I decided to wait for animal control, already talked to my apartment manager so she knows because she knows of the other apartment complex...


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*McStargazer2*: You already arrived at the solution I was going to suggest, from experience. I had great success working with our local Animal Control Officer after a neighbor's off-leash Akita attacked our former dog while we were out walking. We did contact the dog's owner after getting ER veterinary care for our dog. He was extremely apologetic and immediately volunteered to cover all expenses. We made a report of it nonetheless (following the vet's guidance) and I was glad we did. Turns out the dog was a repeat offender. I will spare you the details, suffice it say that dog is long gone. A visit from the ACO may help this woman understand her obligation to keep her dog under control when they're out in public. I share your ire about people misrepresenting their dogs as "service dogs." That riles my vet up like little else! Perhaps that will be dealt with by the ACO too. 

Very wise to take Beau for a vet check up. If his skin was breached your vet may prescribe antibiotics to be on the safe side. If Beau is physically sore form the attack, he can address that too. I think your neighbor should pay for the vet visit and any treatment that may be necessary. 

As for the fright and emotional setback for poor Beau, dammit it! It's something I know you have the will and fortitude to deal with, just sorry you have to. It sounds like your little "foot warmer" has a heart of gold. I have a good feeling he'll come to find he can depend on you to protect him and will feel safer in time. While no bite injury resulted from it, Chagall was attacked by a loose Border Collie last spring. I was ultimately able to subdue the dog. Afterward, my poor mini sat there trembling. I checked him over, reassured him and offered him a treat, which he was initially too upset to take. Once he ate it, we continued on our walk. But he kept turning around and looking behind him, as though expecting to again be tackled from the rear. I took him back to the 'scene of the crime' the next day, being very upbeat and generous with my pocket full of treats. He was wary at first, but quickly returned to being his jaunty, happy-go-lucky self. I think it might be good, provided the 'coast is clear,' if you walk Beau by that spot again soon, encouraging him if need be, so he doesn't hold a negative association with it.

As for your own injury, ouch! Those stinking rope burns from those flexi leashes really hurt. (Especially when they get wet.) If you put some coconut oil on your wound, your little "foot warmer" will become a little ankle licker. 

Hope today is a much better day for you and Beau. It does sound like you had a good walking experience prior to the little Cujo encounter. Good luck at the vet's. BTW, you might carry something like Spray Shield (Amazon.com: SprayShield Animal Deterrent Spray with Belt Clip: Pet Supplies) on your walks. I _never_ leave home without it!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

He is doing the falling asleep , growling as if he's protecting himself... and springing to all fours again. Not fun.

He did it while asleep on my feet which was a first...but it scared me so badly I jumped up and then he was startled because I was startled....it was like a bouncy house for a moment! That's when I decided it was time to clean house....which I just did yesterday morning... 

I have to look into the spray. That is on the list as of now!! I've seen some people walk with walking sticks to shoo away dogs...but we walk fast. besides, I don't need another thing for him to be desensitized from...(bad grammar)


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

McStargazer2 said:


> Oh I don't use a flexi---- retractable leash! Beau was on his 6 foot leash!! with a harness so if he pulls the pressure is not on the brachial / airways.
> 
> The _other dog _was on the retractable leash... I blame the owner not the dog. Any dog can make a great "service dog" which is also another topic for another thread!
> 
> ...


Sorry, misunderstood - thought Beau was on a flexi. Yes, I live in Evanston just north of Chicago on Lake Michigan -- yep, cold here on the Lake -- lots of my pics of Sunny are at the lakefront.


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

I really dislike those leashes  So sorry this happened. Maybe just call the police department and if they won't take your report at least maybe they can let you know who to report it to. Her dog shouldn't be wearing that service dog cape, it definitely is no service dog. I didn't know you could buy that stuff if your dog wasn't a service dog!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Sounds like that chihuahua mix and the owner needs a swift kick! lol j/k!

I am so sorry, it is so frustrating when other people don't control their animal and you are the one who ends up paying.

Hang in there, it sounds like a set back, but he is already recovering! It will be hard for a time for YOU to remain calm now when you see another dog coming at him. He will probably let it go. 

Just keep on keepin on! You are doing great with him!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

McStargazer2 said:


> As I sit typing he is warming my feet! This is new!! Every now and then he will flip over for a belly rub... 17 days forward and maybe only 3 days backwards.....the foot warmer is exciting to me...I refuse to feel as if it's his way of dominating me. :amen:


lol! thanks for having a sense of humor in all of this. of course he's trying to dominate you - with love! good job all around.


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## Rachel76 (Feb 3, 2014)

Im so sorry what happened to you and your dog. I also think you are dealing with it amazingly well. :adore: In my opinion you have rescued Beau in more than one way. Good for you contacting animal control, it is so important for these things to be documented.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm so sorry this happened. It can cause a lot of repercussions with dogs. But it sounds like you're handling the situation well...gentle him along with some other dogs you know well, who are friendly and gentle and he'll realize that it's generally safe. I hate these people who pretend to have service dogs and something like this happens. Definitely they should be reported to anyone who has anything to say about it. Good luck. As long as he was well socialized, has a good, strong temperament, he should be able to bounce back in time.


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I am so sorry about what happened to you and Beauregard ! It has happened more than once to Jolie. I know how terrifying it is.

Jolie is my Service Dog and it is heartbreaking to hear how this woman is abusing the law. It is hard enough for those of us who depend on our dogs to live our lives without people like this. 

I am hoping that animal control will be able to communicate the seriousness of what she is doing . Thank you for reporting her. You are doing a huge thing for the Service Dog community!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Coming to this thread late - blame the time difference - but I'm SO sorry and cross that this happened to you and Beauregard! I would have had steam coming out of my ears, big time!! :mad2:

All of this story is infuriating - the fact she had a pseudo Service Dog cape, an aggressive dog not under proper control, all of it! Grrrrrrr!!

What if it had been a person with another dog AND a child???!!!! Sorry, taking a deep breath here now.... Phew!

Good on you for the way you reacted to protect Beauregard, and for reporting it to Animal Control, and for resisting the urge to smack her round the chops!!

I'm sure Beauregard will recover quickly, even if he does regress a bit, because you are doing such a wonderful job with him already so he won't be able to help himself :hug:

Hope the vet check goes well and he's just a bit sore. Keep us posted!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

So, I was stunned when i read you could get service dog vests on ebay...so I went to take a look. OMGosh! All sorts of them and you can even buy the ADA cards to make it look official. Shameful!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Id gentle and he'll realize that it's generally safe.


Thanks for the ideas. I have to go find some healthy balanced friends with good temperaments first! Ironically the "bestest friend" is a psychologist!! I didn't think of it till you made your suggestion... HHHmmmmm What's funnier is her specialty is working with people who have phobias! *I sense a road trip coming up! :act-up:* 

Thanks again for the kind words.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I am GLAD you reported her!!!! I use a mobility scooter with my Molly, but she is absolutely under my control at all times!!!! (NO FLEXI LEASH!) Molly 'loose leash' walks very nicely on our scooter walks as she was trained to do BEFORE I got my scooter! Also, there is a kind of 'scooter etiquette' we use that when we see someone approaching and the sidewalk is too narrow, Molly is given a "Come on" command that has her jump on my scooter and sit at my feet (she prefers riding anyway, the lazy stinker!) we then stop and let the person(s) pass.
I am very aware of other dogs too..........I don't want my little girl hurt by a dog that may not be friendly. It's very much like 'defensive' driving LOL! I am so sorry you ran into an ignorant owner!
As far as her having a service vest for her UNTRAINED dog....I put that in that same category as 'ABLE' people who park in handicapped designated parking places!!!
I prefer that people 'smile' when they see us coming! 
P.S. I also live in an apt complex and we have a very strict leash rule. Leashes are only allowed to be 3ft long while on complex property and if you get complaints about your dog being out of control, you can be forced to get rid of your dog! You should talk to management!!!!!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

Jamie Hein said:


> I really dislike those leashes  So sorry this happened.
> 
> I believe they have a place just like anything else...but one of the previous comments ....was head on. What "service dog" wears a retracting leash?
> 
> ...


I realized when I stopped to breathe this morning that those in our area report it to animal control. I called them and I have to say they were AWESOME. They were also concerned that the animal is considered a "service dog & she admits to taking it with her everywhere" At the time the dog was wearing no vest...which doesn't matter anyhow because they don't have to have vests, I.D.s or formalized training. 

BTW....I saw you grooming today!!! *The big white Standard looked AWESOME!!!! The cute white poodle was cute too! When are you "breaking out on your own? :aetsch: *


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Actually no. A number of mobility dog will work on flexi leashes. They allow the dog to remain on leash while working away from the handler. Common uses I see listed for such scenarios are letting the dog potty away from the sidewalk where the handler can't follow them. Sending them down a narrow aisle at a store to pick up something. Some guide dog handlers will also use them for dogs to potty. 

There is a time and a place for them when used properly.


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

spindledreams said:


> . A number of mobility dog will work on flexi leashes. They allow the dog to remain on leash while working away from the handler. ...
> 
> 
> Common uses I see listed for such scenarios are letting the dog potty away from the sidewalk where the handler can't follow them. Sending them down a narrow aisle at a store to pick up something. Some guide dog handlers will also use them for dogs to potty.
> ...


EXACTLY!! :adore: There is a "definite" place for retraction leashes... especially with service dogs... Great examples too. We have a physically disabled woman here in my apartment complex who uses one. She is trained so well, she "does her business" next to the woman's wheelchair so she can bend over and pick it up!!! How great is that!!!


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

In the US you are allowed to train your own service dog. There are many places you can buy service dog vests, id tags, and cards. Amazon actually has only few items. You should look at eBay  For OT like myself and others on this forum access to those items is nice but most of us don't use id tags/cards but will often use the ADA cards in an effort to educate. Wry grin the "service dog registries" on line are actually scams. 

The fact of the matter is that our dogs DON'T NEED VESTS OR ANY FORM OF ID. They do need to be house broken, well behaved and under control. An aggressive or out of control dog is not covered by the ADA.


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

McStargazer2 said:


> I realized when I stopped to breathe this morning that those in our area report it to animal control. I called them and I have to say they were AWESOME. They were also concerned that the animal is considered a "service dog & she admits to taking it with her everywhere" At the time the dog was wearing no vest...which doesn't matter anyhow because they don't have to have vests, I.D.s or formalized training.
> 
> BTW....I saw you grooming today!!! *The big white Standard looked AWESOME!!!! The cute white poodle was cute too! When are you "breaking out on your own? :aetsch: *


Haha thank you! I won't be grooming on my own for awhile since I still have so much to learn.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Oh my goodness- how horrible. Thank God no major injuries. Glad Animal Control was helpful. I agree that this could be an event that bonds Beau closer to you, so as strange as it may seem, there may be good that comes out of this. Additionally, identifying this dog as an imposter service animal may prevent her from continuing this masquerade. 
Love the foot warmer image-sounds like he is doing OK in spite of it all!

Sending hugs your way:hug-right:


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## Caniche (Jun 10, 2013)

I haven't read all the responses yet - I'm about to head to bed. Is there a dog warden/control officer in your area? Documenting a dog out of control will help if the issue happens again.

And don't even get me started on retractable leashes....I think they're useless!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

spindledreams said:


> In the US you are allowed to train your own service dog.
> 
> 
> _ Which I agree as long as they are trained!!_ There are many places you can buy service dog vests, id tags, and cards. Amazon actually has only few items. You should look at eBay
> ...


*EXACTLY* :adore:That is _where my anger is focused. My Beau will recover. I will recover. We only just began so it's good to get it out of the way. No dog, service dog or not, can be out of control and covered by ADA.. nor by our county ordances.

What's really ironic is that a lot of people trying to pass off untrained dogs for service dogs buy the vest/ID because they don't know that you don't need it AND that shop owners etc can only ask you two questions regarding your dog!! 

I do believe the US needs to get organized on this topic. Taxi's need licenses to drive...(bad example LOL) but you understand...

Great mind!!!!_


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

> I do believe the US needs to get organized on this topic. Taxi's need licenses to drive...(bad example LOL) but you understand...


Actually this is a hot topic on the SD groups. There are as many if not more valid arguments against as for official licenses for SD. The fact of the matter is if more businesses educated themselves and their employees about what they can and can not do when it comes to service dogs the fakers would be put out of business quite rapidly. 

Yes you can only ask two questions, unfortunately most stop at the first one. Question 1) Is that a service dog is easily answered with a lie. Question 2) What work or task does he perform? is not as easy to get around IF the business knows the rules. He makes me feel warm and fuzzy is not a correct answer. She alerts me to raising anxiety levels and preforms Deep Pressure Therapy to help calm me is. Even the more generic and generalized She is a medical alert dog is acceptable. If I can't meet your eyes or say anything but hand you a card that says she does xxxxx that is also legitimate as many of us that use a PSD have real issues with challenges and sometimes can't speak or make any sound but will turn around and slink off all the while fuming at ourselves for being so weak. A nasty comment "that dogs shouldn't be allowed in a grocery store" sent me home shaking and I have been avoiding what used to be my favorite store since then... 

Next up is behavior. The law says clearly and plainly


> A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) *the dog is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it or *(2) the dog is not housebroken. When there is a legitimate reason to ask that a service animal be removed, staff must offer the person with the disability the opportunity to obtain goods or services without the animal’s presence.


So yep while you have to take the answers to the 2 questions at face value you as a business do have the right to throw out misbehaving dogs and you should. Also the handler is liable for ANY damages caused by their dogs so if misrepresented fluffy damages goods the handler is responsible for their cost.

I and many other handlers are also very concerned for the poor dogs. Washout rate for carefully selected, socialized and trained SD runs around 40% and the most common cause for being washed out is the dog can't handle the stress of being in public... now imagine what is happening to poor Fluffy whose owner wants to take him everywhere.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i think there are people with therapy dogs and comfort animals who believe their dogs qualify for public access. they do not understand that the ada protects service dogs only. 

even the fha, which protects comfort and emotional support animals in housing, has restrictions, but everyone runs scared of invoking them. where i live, a renter made a complaint to the civil right commission and the investigator displayed incredible bias in favor of the renter before even looking at the facts of the case. as a witness, i was even subtly threatened by the investigator until i fought back. ultimately the renter (who was running her dog off leash while rollerskating and claiming her dog was an alert dog for epilepsy) lost the case. but her complaint helped increase the deductible for my aoao's liability insurance! this kind of thing does not help anyone.

i am not convinced of the efficacy of i.d. papers. i was told by a french woman that in france i.d. documents are issued. really, in the u.s. these are so easily faked. and the point of the way the ada rules are written is to accord respect and privacy to the disabled person, which is one reason documents are not a matter of course. in general i tend to agree with the department of justice that respect for the disabled person's privacy comes first. but administering the law so that protections are indeed extended when they should be and not abused by those who are not disabled is not easy.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

True service dogs have documentation and I do think businesses should be allowed to ask to see it. I know documentation can be faced but a stiff $1,000.00 fine would discourage fakers. Right now people blatantly lie and feel so cocky that they make little attempt to make themselves even halfway creditable because they know they won't be challenged.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

> True service dogs have documentation and I do think businesses should be allowed to ask to see it.


v

EXCUSE ME? Many service dogs in the US are owner trained and as such may not have documentation. That doesn't mean they aren't "true" service dogs and in many cases they are actually better trained and better behaved then the local program dogs.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

CT Girl said:


> True service dogs have documentation and I do think businesses should be allowed to ask to see it. I know documentation can be faced but a stiff $1,000.00 fine would discourage fakers. Right now people blatantly lie and feel so cocky that they make little attempt to make themselves even halfway creditable because they know they won't be challenged.


I disagree with this statement. I have met an owner-trained service dog that wouldn't have any documentation. It was a legitimate service dog, though, and it seemed well trained. Unless you think the disabled person should have to provide medical documentation in order to enter a business with a service dog, which I think is a HUGE invasion of privacy. 

Also, as far as the incident that prompted this thread, I know that where I live the leash laws specify that the leash must be no longer than 6', so it is possible that the owner may have been violating leash laws as it is.


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Excellent information Spindledreams !!! I might just add that the ADA is a civil rights law and that those of us using Service Dogs should not be subject to being asked for "our papers" . 

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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

spindledreams said:


> v
> EXCUSE ME? Many service dogs in the US are owner trained and as such may not have documentation. That doesn't mean they aren't "true" service dogs and in many cases they are actually better trained and better behaved then the local program dogs.


What I think though, a sort of ID would help..... even if the dog is trained by the owner, there should be a way for him to show what he knows and get properly registered...... sort of like a disabled parking thing - I know this is not the best example, but you got to be registered disabled to get that parking sign..... if you got a service dog who helps you out in a day to day tasks if it had an ID then that would be a proof. 

I am not sure how it works here in the UK but I know businesses, taxis, buses and so on got to by law allow service dogs on their premisses... so if you are allowed by law to enter somewhere, you got to be able to proof that you really got a service dog, you can't just label a dog a service dog and expect everyone to believe you. 

That is only my opinion, I have no idea how it really works.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

an i.d. might help, but the administrative process you would have to create to produce an official document might not. at my condo association, there is always someone who wants a "rule" about this or that. for a rule to be effective, you need a serious enforcement mechanism. the administrative costs sometimes outweigh any benefit a rule might bring. we are working on a new iteration now of "house rules" and it is replete with fines for this and fines for that. the people who drafted the rules want to tell everyone else how to breathe and when. that's the kind of thing i would worry about re setting up an i.d. process for service dogs. as much as i don't usually admire the doj, i think in this case they are generally coming from the right direction - they got as close to k.i.s.s. as they could while recognizing the right of the general public to not have to put up with ill-behaved dogs.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

* McStargazer2*: How's it going? Did Beauregard settle down a bit more since the incident? It's great walking weather here, hope the same for you and that you can _safely_ enjoy it! 

ETA: Would love to hear what the ACO did/said?


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## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

Regarding Beau's behavior the night of his attack. Animals do panic and stress, as I am sure you know. Few years ago I was at my front door, my 15 pound dog on her leash, opening my door, when the neighbor's lab mixes bounded up onto our porch and grabbed my dog. It was a tug of war, she was in the air, I had the leash, the other dog had her rear, and I was yelling for my husband. Cricket screamed for over 30 minutes inside the house afterwards, she was hysterical, and refused to come near me for the rest of the night. She was also very nervous, as was I, for quite a while anytime I took her out front to potty. (Me it lasted much much longer) Her attack was not my fault but somehow she connected it all to me at first. Luckily they were lab/pointer mixes so "soft mouths" and all she had was some scrapes and bruising. Don't want to think what would have been if they would have been a different breed.

So glad to hear that Beau is back to where he was before the attack. I think he was just very upset and connected you to the incident. So glad you found out where/who to report this too. Oh yea, the idea that people are scamming people with their untrained "service" dogs is horrible. Think of all the damage they are doing to reputations of real service dogs.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Well ya know it works both ways. Many service dogs have been attacked and injured by off leash and/or out of control PET dogs. Those attacks often result in many hours of training being required to undo the damage caused and can result in a dog having to be retired or washed out if still in training. In some instances service dogs have even been killed by out of control PETS. In the UK attacks on guide dogs have nearly tripled in recent years. See this post Now stop and think about that figure EIGHT attacks a MONTH on guide dogs in the UK alone and that is the reported ones... So please tell me again who is putting up with unruly dogs...

I think the emphasis should not be on if the dog is a "real" service dog with certification but on the behavior of the offending dog regardless of its status as working service dog, "fake service dog", or pet. The owners need to be held responsible for their dogs behavior just as the OP did with the owner of the Chi that attacked her dog. 

IF the stores and businesses exercised their right to evict misbehaving dogs then the public IN STORES AND OTHER BUSINESSES would not have to be exposed to them or put up with their behaviors. On the streets, sigh, is a totally different matter... and lets be honest this is were most dog attacks occur.


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

spindledreams said:


> Well ya know it works both ways. Many service dogs have been attacked and injured by off leash and/or out of control PET dogs. Those attacks often result in many hours of training being required to undo the damage caused and can result in a dog having to be retired or washed out if still in training. In some instances service dogs have even been killed by out of control PETS.


This is another another MAJOR CONCERN. ...which I am stipulating in the affidavit so if it goes to court.... This owner will pay a small fine...if it had attacked a service dog - there is no way she will be able to pay restitution. The HOURS, TIME, LABOR, Tests...= money. A lot of money. An injured service dog is retired and now the replacement and keep for two dogs simply because .... I don't see an excuse but selfishness. 

Thanks for the thoughts!


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

If it's a service dog, trained by an owner or agency - for it and the owner to have full rights under the service dog laws and guidelines - that dog should be registered somehow as such. If now, it opens the door to many people being able to scam others claiming dogs are trained service dogs or even owners scamming just to bring their dogs around with them. And I do not agree that a comfort dog is the same as a service dog either. I have friends with true, trained service dogs and they are amazing animals. 

Yep, there needs to be strong regulations and registration for these animals.


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

As far as offending and attacking dogs go - there are already leash laws and legal means to deal with them. Just gotta do what one gotta do if that unfortunate occurrence were to happen.


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

McStargazer2 said:


> Morally I don't think it's right to allow any dog to walk in public out of control on any kind of leash....plus, she is using this pet as an emotional support dog which is NOT a Service Animal by law. THIS ALWAYS INFURIATES ME....and it takes a lot. HOW DO I FOLLOW UP & / or SHOULD I FOLLOW UP?
> 
> I sustained a rope burn from the leash--no biggie--but my ankle got twisted in the scuffle....I'm only concerned that this will happen again if I don't "document" the dogs behavior. but HOW????


Call animal control or the dog warden


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

*"Its only the second time."*

WOW..... quickly I'm trying to catch up. For the past three days I have had pain in the knees and the right ankle. I'm one to push through the pain due to my days as an athlete BUT now that I'm 53 I have discovered I'm no athlete and rest, ice and more rest may do the trick. So no long glorious walks for Beauregard. Training didn't stop. Indoor training and riding in the car, (he detests being in his crate), we walked through aisles of pet stores where animals would bark etc. It was more desensitizing and MUCH easier than the walking we have been doing daily.

I have done my research. County law she had her dog on a leash (retractable) there is no law regarding length of leash in this county. Her dog was not under her control---that she violated. The dog did not bit "someone" so police were not involved, her dog bit another dog which goes back to animal control.

As a Special Education teacher and a sister to two brothers who use wheelchairs both manual and electric (four other brothers complain they have to use tennis shoes) I fully comprehend ADA law. What comes into play here is Fair Housing Act/ HUD ....Good Grief no wonder this is a hot topic!!!

Fair Housing Act uses the exact law that a person with mental health disability requiring a service dog by a doctor is allowed to keep a comfort, emotional support animal in the building.... blah blah blah ADA/ FHA it's obvious to me that the second question must be asked to give it public access. County law says if the dog growls (which it did not) or displays aggressive behaviour they may put evict service dog from premises.

I WENT TO VISIT OWNER to tell her to expect to hear from animal control. I asked to speak with her outside but she said she couldn't for very long. (she was standing with out support) I told her that I wasn't going into an apartment where a dog is unstable and attacked my dog. 
She said she was sorry but "*it's only the second time its happened. I'm working with her.*" :at-wits-end::banghead::mad3::mad2:
(Did she just hear herself?) She tried to tell me about another person's dog who was worse but I stopped her saying "I'm here about your dog, your dog attacked mine. The leash you used wrapped around my legs making me tethered to your dog attacking mine so I couldn't escape a dog attack nor could my dog who was on a properly sized leash."

She apologized and said that she was talking to someone who is helping her with the dog and it was her fault. She should have had the dog in her lap. (Oh my goodness- did she just say that?) I am a first time owner. She had to get rid of a pit bull because "it was a pit bull" her words.

She was informed that the manager of the building was notified of the attack. I morally can't not report that because 1) other animals live in the building and 2) children who are more vulnerable than adults live in that building. I can't believe I said this but I told her point blank that the "service dog vest has to go" a REAL service dog will not attack. SHE & IU both know he is not a trained service animal but a comfort animal which doesn't give her the right nor privilege to bring it into public places. She agreed...reluctantly. 

Today, Beauregard is hanging out in his bed. My knees are still aching so I'm trying to rest them. The vet bill...well I just wont go into that. Now, I will have to go see what's with the knees... 

Regarding owner trained SD. We have a dog trained right here in my apartment complex that goes to monthly meetings held for owners doing there own training or just having a service dog. Guest speakers are brought in and there is time to ask for help get suggestions etc. I believe it can be done just as well as a company trained SD. There are pros and cons to each style of training. Training being the key word. 

I'm into some type of regulation for service dogs. (another hot topic) but then again, I think all dogs should go to obedience school and have to pass with the owner. I think BOTH should have to pass. 

Lastly, I thought the dog that attacked was a Chihuahua mix but when I asked what it was it was an American Rat Terrier. Her rabies shots were up to date. 

Thanks to keeping the discussion going as it has inspired me both with how to help Beau and people with disabilities needing service animals -dogs in this case to help them in life.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

spindledreams said:


> v
> 
> EXCUSE ME? Many service dogs in the US are owner trained and as such may not have documentation. That doesn't mean they aren't "true" service dogs and in many cases they are actually better trained and better behaved then the local program dogs.


I see no problem with an owner training their dog to be a service dog but I don't think we can count on owners to determine if their dog is a service dog. I think it would benefit true service dogs to pass a test of basic requirements like a canine good citizen test. Otherwise people like this woman will label their dogs to be service dogs will blacken the reputation of service dogs. The system is flawed and is being abused. Changes need to be made. I also think the guidelines on what is a service dog should be fairly liberal. Our society as a whole is much too restrictive with dogs.


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

*"both of you should get to the dr"...*



hopetocurl said:


> I think the important thing to realize is that this could be a bonding incident for you and Beau.
> 
> This has deffinitely been a bonding experience for me and for Beau... I'm thinking it wasn't a silver lining but more Platinum!!!.
> 
> I do agree... both of you should get to the dr to have it documented.


Hopetocurl...I got Beauregard the the vet and a thorough check was completed! I mean thorough. I think his long hair saved him from punctures or any physical injury inflicted by the other dog.

Never even thought about me. Rope burn was minor. My knees and R ankle have been hurting so bad...I realize NOW, I'm the one who was hog tied by the retraction leash. My twisting & not being able to escape while suspending the poo in the air away from attack...yikes. I'm loving my new poo but really never thought I would have to be checked out. 

Thanks for the advice, even though I didn't think of it until the adrenaline stopped pumping. :argh:


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

Sorry this happened. I wouldn't of been as nice as you. I would've brought her my vet bills AND my dr bills to pay me back. Hope things get back to normal soon. 


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Something a little bit similar happened to Sugarfoot when he was a tender seven months old. I'm sure you can find the extensive thread here from when it happened--the title was "Sugarfoot attacked by a pit bull" or something similar--and, I don't want to be all Debbie Downer, but it did impact my dog in a permanent and negative way.

Long story short of the incident: my leashed puppy was attacked by a loose pit bull. We went to the ground with me trying to protect my dog, to no avail, as the pittie--with its young owners dancing around ineffectually--contined darting in biting him while I screamed and held him in my arms. He ended up with stitches and a drain, in a cone for a while. "Lucky" the damage wasn't worse and that I wasn't injured (just bruised and scraped).

I'm an experienced dog person and active in Agility, and the counter-conditioning to try to mitigate this horrible event started almost immediately. (As in, the very next day we were showing our other two dogs at Reliant, and we picked up Sugarfoot from his overnight stay at the vet and by golly he went with us, cone and all. Right back on the horse, though of course we were super easy with him.) He has come a LONG way. But he is still damaged and must be carefully managed (and probably will have to be for the rest of his life).

He cannot be trusted with other dogs. If a dog has a high energy level, he is reactive--not trying to bite, but growling and barking, sometimes darting at dogs that in his opinion are having "too much fun," i.e. tugging wildly, jumping around their owners, chasing balls. It would be nice to think he "wants to play," as his darting at Gimble (our corgi) is actually the way he plays with her, but I don't trust him. If a dog has a low energy level or just a calm, confident demeanor, he's fine. He has a best friend who's a Doberman, owned by a very dog-savvy friend of mine, and we have even--cautiously--let them play loose with each other. But Sugarfoot cannot go to dog parks (not that I'm a dog park person anyway), and I have to assess other dogs he gets close to on a case-by-case basis and watch him like a hawk. I have to scan constantly for loose dogs when we're out and about, even at Agility shows. He has gotten better--he used to be reactive to dogs passing by his crate, lunging and barking--exactly the kind of dog I *didn't* want to have in the crowded crating conditions at shows. But this behavior has actually decreased to practically disappeared, unless a dog lunges at him, so things are better.

His interactions with humans was impacted, too. Even before the attack, he tended to be one of the more aloof spoos rather than one of the effusive ones. But after the attack he became more frightened of strangers, sometimes stiffening, sometimes growling, sometimes in extreme cases greeting approaching people with a stand off and volley of intimidating barking. Again, we worked *hard* to overcome this, arming strangers with treats, coaching them, etc. It helped to be around dog-savvy fellow Agility competitors week after week, too, who knew how to work with such a dog patiently and kindly. This behavior, too, has become much, much better, so that now he will let most strangers pet him upon first meeting, and greets people he knows with affection. I knew we'd made progress when one of my Agility friends watched him greet a stranger, and she said, "Wow! He's like a normal dog now!" He still doesn't like hands coming over his head (but that's a pretty normal reaction), and it takes him a while to stop barking aggressively at people who come to our house, but he's better. Even so, I know he's not completely trustworthy and must be managed and watched. He could have a huge setback if someone startled him or--heaven forbid--scared him deliberately.

Unfortunately he also seems to have developed some sad quirks. If awakened from sleep, he comes up growling, like a person awakened from a nightmare. Sometimes he will "attack" a nearby corgi in this state (jump on them, hold them down with his mouth on their neck, but not biting down, almost like a scared person grabbing your arm in a death grip). He has never attacked a human in this state, but it's quite scary, and for this reason he can never sleep on the bed with us. He is put to bed in his roomy crate at night. He often sleeps with his eyes open. This extreme startle response means he has to *really* be managed carefully. For example, if children are over, he can play with them, but when we're not playing, he goes in his crate. He could never be in a family with children; the risk of one waking him from sleep would be too great. He also growls when hurt, sometimes also doing the "attack a nearby corgi" thing. For example, my husband was petting him, and Sugar moved his head in such a way that he scratched his nose on James's belt buckle. He started growling, the growl rising menacingly in his throat in a way that would have been very scary indeed to a stranger. We have learned to handle these incidents with calmness, and we're still working on the nightmare thing--but again, he is now a dog who has to be managed carefully.

I will hasten to add that he has never bitten or even snapped at a person, even when obviously very frightened (though he will urinate or express his anal glands in fear), or I would have had a difficult decision, as I won't have a dangerous dog. He has never bitten another dog, either, even when doing the "I'll get you before you get me" lunge at boisterous ones.

Well, all of this makes him sound like a right old basket case, and yes, there were times after the attack when I wasn't sure we'd make it. But he's now a little over two years old, and except for having to manage him around other dogs and in sleeping situations, he's reletively normal. Not the carefree dog I'd wanted, but then, we have to live with the cards we're dealt, right? I think of him as a canine Sheldon (for you Big Bang Theory fans)--he's an extraordinarily intelligent dog, almost creepily smart. He's just...a little damaged, a little weird, that's all. Anyone who's seen his NAJ video can tell that he's not a skulking, frightened, sad little creature, but a triumph of the canine spirit, a testament to resiliency.

The attack did take something from me. It stole from me the joy of carefree walks, and it stole from me the dog I might have had. But, slowly but surely, we're fighting back to a place where we can live. It's not always easy; it's a constant battle of diligence. But it's what I have, and little by little, we're making it.

--Q


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Quossum, I am glad you shared a more long term update about Sugarfoot here. I also hope that the OP will look at some of your posts with links to videos of your agility runs together. I think what you have accomplished since the attack (even though there are long term consequences for you both) shows how important it is to work quickly and carefully to move past events like this.

As to service dog certifications and the like, I think maybe a new thread dedicated to that could be in order. Also think it is important to note that all dogs, SD or not, need our guidance and training to be well mannered in public. We are preaching to the choir talking amongst ourselves. Lets think about ways to help people who don't understand misused tools, bad dog manners, etc. to "see the light."


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

Quossum said:


> I don't want to be all Debbie Downer, but it did impact my dog in a permanent and negative way.
> 
> I am so sorry this happened to you and to your family.
> 
> ...


I am sorry the attack did this to your Pup. It also stole the dream of what you wanted in and for the dog. Life sucks sometimes. 

Beau is new to me though he is 3yo...& I knew he had some issues from being neglected and then abused. I can't imagine a puppy happy with life and then a dog attacks and it is changed instantly... 
The attack's effects were immediate with the startle reflex. Beau is being crate trained and because he is a rescue he spends the night hours crated as I don't know what to expect. It's Sunday and the sleeping & growling and waking up ready to fight hasn't happened for the past two evenings. :amen:
I think he is so excited about discovering his first Spring outside with new smells, & birds chirping with occasional lawnmowers...and mulch!!! He has had his first walks in the snow, the rain, and on grass but Spring has brought out mulched & it is everywhere. I allowed the "off the sidewalk 'check it out' behavior". He sniffed, sniffed some more... looked up at me, put his head down and took a bite. Chewed it and spit it out. I laughed so hard. I would have wiped his mouth off but he jumped towards my feet as to say "what was that?" He's moving forward. 

Your story gives me much encouragement and insight--thank you.


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> As to service dog certifications and the like, I think maybe a new thread dedicated to that could be in order. Also think it is important to note that all dogs, SD or not, need our guidance and training to be well mannered in public. We are preaching to the choir talking amongst ourselves. Lets think about ways to *help people who don't understand misused tools, bad dog manners, etc. to "see the light.*"


:amen::adore: :angel:


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

McStargazer2 said:


> It's Sunday and the sleeping & growling and waking up ready to fight hasn't happened for the past two evenings.


That is so nice to read! Hopefully it won't happen anymore, or just very rarely. 

The love and encouragement you are giving him is obviously working and all your hard work is starting to pay off. You're great!


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