# Phantom spoos



## g8dhorse7

I am so enjoying this forum! I'm learning a lot from all the posts, and the knowledgeable folks here. I am actively searching for my "dream" spoo, smaller female, phantom color, as a pet only. I am not interested in showing. I spent time in the ring with my horses and now prefer trail riding with hubby and friends. Our dogs travel with us when we camp and they are our "fids." So, please be patient with me as I ask lots of questions and inquire about breeders. 

Anyone have knowledge of these folks? http://www.htpoodles.com/index.html

Again, as in another thread, the puppies are so adorable! It's hard to get past those pretty faces and dig into the "meat" of the operation. LOL!


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## Cdnjennga

Took a very quick look at the website.

1) Looks like they have a lot of dogs/ puppies. They mention a "State of the art" kennel facility and that they are regularly inspected, which suggests they are a commercial breeder.

2) I don't see any mention of common poodle health problems/ health testing anywhere on the website.

3) They are breeding all the "hot" colours of poodles. Parti, phantom, reds...

It all depends on what you are comfortable with and looking for. I personally wouldn't even bother to contact them for more information, but that's me


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## Cdnjennga

Have you looked at these people? Did a quick search for phantom poodles, and they came up. I know NOTHING about them so do your research, but at a glance they seem to show in UKC and do health testing, both of which are positive signs.  Plus they may not be that far from you?

http://www.wpspoodles.com/index.htm


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## bigpoodleperson

WOW they have alot of dogs!!! I counted 17 puppies for sale right now! They have WAY too many breeding dogs, and most of them look like they are being bred only for color. It looks like alot of them would Not meet the breed standard. No pedigrees, no health tests mentioned, no birthdays, etc. I would personally stay Far Far away from this breeder.


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## cbrand

Phantom is a disqualifying fault in AKC. Historically, when these puppies popped up in a well bred litter, they were highly discounted or available for the cost of their spay/neuter surgery. The fact that people now buy them for $$$ from obviously bad breeders makes my head go :wacko:

Take a look at the breeding section of this board to educate yourself about what to look for in a breeder.

Red Flags? 

Where are the registered names?
Does this breeder do anything with her dogs other than fill uteruses?
Where is the testing?
Learn the breed Standard. Do these dogs conform?


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## Cdnjennga

cbrand said:


> Phantom is a disqualifying fault in AKC. Historically, when these puppies popped up in a well bred litter, they were highly discounted or available for the cost of their spay/neuter surgery. The fact that people now buy them for $$$ from obviously bad breeders makes my head go :wacko:


Isn't this also true for all non solids? And is there really a specific reason for it, or just that some people in history decided that poodles should be solid only and anything else is a disqualifying fault? I'm on the fence about non solids and think to some extent it's a shame that they are now in the hands of primarily questionable breeders.


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## cbrand

Cdnjennga said:


> Isn't this also true for all non solids? And is there really a specific reason for it, or just that some people in history decided that poodles should be solid only and anything else is a disqualifying fault? I'm on the fence about non solids and think to some extent it's a shame that they are now in the hands of primarily questionable breeders.



Breeds have Standards. The standard is the blue print breeders use for maintaining the overall look, movement and in some cases temperament in a breed.

People think color is not a big deal and that any and all colors should now be OK in poodles. Well what about coats. How do you feel about flat coated poodles? Ever heard of Bluebells? These tend to pop up in Mini litters. They are born a gun-metal gray all over and they have flat, non-curly coats? Should we start showing these in UKC as well? Or is there something about the curly coat that defines "Poodle".

What about structure? If we are not going to follow the standard, why not breed Poodles that are short on leg, long in body and short of neck? Why not breed prick ear poodles? Or poodles with tails that hang down saber style? If we did not follow the standard, at some point our breed would lose the essence of Poodle.


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## KPoos

Does color play that much into structure of the dog? If a parti or any color can occur naturally does that make the dog unnatural by "breed" standard? I know why we have standards and I agree with you but I also don't. I think partis should be allowed because they occur often in litters. Even in some of the biggest most well known lines you get mismarks which are not allowed in AKC showing and it's just a tiny spot of white on a colored dog. How does that change it's conformation?


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## Cdnjennga

cbrand said:


> Breeds have Standards. The standard is the blue print breeders use for maintaining the overall look, movement and in some cases temperament in a breed.


Standards are important, but I don't think they are the be all and end all of a breed. Some breeds are bred to their current standard and now can't even birth naturally! Others like GSD's have a structure that is prone to major hip problems, yet they would be considered to standard. So standards are important and are what make a breed a breed, yet I think they should also be reevaluated periodically to ensure that what made sense in the past continues to make sense today.

I see your point, as to where is the line drawn? And what makes a poodle a poodle? But I look back at the history of the poodle and I see partis and other not to standard coats documented in art and photos. It just makes me wonder why parti poodles were accepted at one point and are not now. And if it would really weaken the breed to expand the standard to accept at least some of the currently unacceptable coats (with clear guidelines of course). As I say, I haven't made up my mind on it.


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## cbrand

KPoos said:


> Does color play that much into structure of the dog? If a parti or any color can occur naturally does that make the dog unnatural by "breed" standard? I know why we have standards and I agree with you but I also don't. I think partis should be allowed because they occur often in litters. Even in some of the biggest most well known lines you get mismarks which are not allowed in AKC showing and it's just a tiny spot of white on a colored dog. How does that change it's conformation?


Parti coloring often visually alters the outline of a dog making the topline look dippy or the neck look short. It can also make the movement look unbalanced. 

I also think that the Parti coloring detracts from the regal look of a Poodle (especially a standard). Parti coloring makes a Poodle look clownish and not dignified or elegant.

From the standard: 
That of a very active, intelligent and elegant-appearing dog, squarely built, well proportioned, moving soundly and carrying himself proudly. Properly clipped in the traditional fashion and carefully groomed, the Poodle has about him an air of distinction and dignity peculiar to himself.


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## KPoos

Okay I can understand your point there but what about the poor mismark puppies that are outstanding but have a little white on the chest or toes? I don't think that really should have to be dyed to show and it cannot possibly take away from the look of the dog unless it's the entire chest. It reminds me of the ridgeback not being a true ridgeback without the ridge.


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## Harley_chik

Where do the phantoms come from? I've seen old pictures of parti colored dogs, but I've never seen a phantom until recently. Are they even purebred?


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## cbrand

KPoos said:


> Okay I can understand your point there but what about the poor mismark puppies that are outstanding but have a little white on the chest or toes? I don't think that really should have to be dyed to show and it cannot possibly take away from the look of the dog unless it's the entire chest. It reminds me of the ridgeback not being a true ridgeback without the ridge.


If you breed a mismark to a mismark, you get partis very quickly. Look at the pedigree of this dog who is a full parti:

http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=111520

He is the product of a 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister breeding, linebred on a dog who was known to throw mismarks (toes, chest spots etc)


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## Purple Poodle

I like phantoms but I am iffy on where they came from, its why its important to do pedigree research.

I would say no on the first breeder and the second one suggested I would hesitate only in the fact that her Phantoms come from Kit-Sue who is a _very_ heavy breeder.



> Phantom is a disqualifying fault in AKC. Historically, when these puppies popped up in a well bred litter, they were highly discounted or available for the cost of their spay/neuter surgery. The fact that people now buy them for $$$ from obviously bad breeders makes my head go


This really rubs me the wrong way. There are bad breeder in EVERY color/size in Poodles. The PCA is extremely biased and it irks me when people say "Multicolored poodles should not be bred" I have yet to get a good reason for them to discredit the non solid color poodles. Because the standard says so? Well the PCA made the standard they can change the standard. Poodle breeders have been culling multicolored puppies all in the name of winning, back in the day when showing became showing it was whites and blacks who were winning and being exhibited so that's what was being bred. The history of the poodle is very diluted and not real clear. I do think that the multicolors are being exploited. But color should be a prefrence and if it does not affect the health of the dog I see nothing wrong with multicolred Poodles.


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## Keithsomething

I completely agree with purple poodle
just because something doesn't meet the standard...why does that discount it as a amazing pet? of course pedigree should be investigated but I don't think the phantom colouring is so bad that it should be discredited.

and from what I've read Browns and reds weren't part of the breed standard at first but were expected eventually.


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## cbrand

Keithsomething said:


> and from what I've read Browns and reds weren't part of the breed standard at first but were expected eventually.


Not true.


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## Keithsomething

Oh, well thank you for clarifying that =]

I remember reading something on a brown st. poodle breeders page that browns and reds weren't part of the standard only the whites and blacks. perhaps I read wrong? =]]


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## KPoos

They might have meant that they aren't shown as often or finish like the other colors.

I'm still going to go back to ridgebacks. They cull those without ridges and the surprising thing is that the ridge is a genetic disorder that is actually bad for the dogs but breeders will refuse to see that because the standard says it. This is just color. Color cannot be bad for a dog's structure, temperament, and overall appearance. If one person doesn't believe that the poodle born with more white than black (creating a parti) doesn't look regal and elegant that's their opinion. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and a piece of paper that says this is beautiful but this isn't doesn't change a person's opinion.

The way I look at something is if it's treated like it's exotic the price that it could be sold for goes up because the buyer feels like they have a rarity. When that goes away it becomes like all other things, normal.


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## roxy25

KPoos said:


> They might have meant that they aren't shown as often or finish like the other colors.
> 
> I'm still going to go back to ridgebacks. They cull those without ridges and the surprising thing is that the ridge is a genetic disorder that is actually bad for the dogs but breeders will refuse to see that because the standard says it.



I feel that BBC show might have just picked a few dogs that has problems and are saying the whole breed will come out sick etc.... Honestly i do not know about ridgebacks so i can comment but it will be wise to research this info before trusting some tv show. 

Maybe I will ask a breeder about it at the next show and see what she says. Also culling can mean spay and neuter from a breeding program this does not mean they have to kill them. 

This is why I think that show was biased 

but anyways sorry I am off topic back to parti's


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## Cdnjennga

Purple Poodle said:


> I would say no on the first breeder and the second one suggested I would hesitate only in the fact that her Phantoms come from Kit-Sue who is a _very_ heavy breeder.


This, to me, is the major concern when looking for a non solid poodle. Most of them have very questionable backgrounds because mainstream breeders have removed them from their breeding programs. All you can really do (if you have your heart set on a non solid) is look at the current and more recent breeders, because chances are you'll see something you don't like in the pedigree.


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## g8dhorse7

"The way I look at something is if it's treated like it's exotic the price that it could be sold for goes up because the buyer feels like they have a rarity. When that goes away it becomes like all other things, normal."

I agree with you, Kpoos. Reminds that when I bought my first microwave it cost me $700! The last one I bought was bigger and lasted longer and it was only $120. I know this is not the case with animals, but I think you get the idea. If partis and phantoms were "the norm" than there would be someone out there trying to breed for even more unique colorings. 

Still, like with my horses, I love contrast in color. I will just continue to research and look for the best fit for our family. I REALLY appreciate all the comments and knowledge you all are willing to share. Thank you!


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## Purple Poodle

Cdnjennga said:


> This, to me, is the major concern when looking for a non solid poodle. Most of them have very questionable backgrounds because mainstream breeders have removed them from their breeding programs. All you can really do (if you have your heart set on a non solid) is look at the current and more recent breeders, because chances are you'll see something you don't like in the pedigree.


Its amazing to me that its the Standard Poodle who is being over bred to produce Parti's. There are hand fulls upon hand fulls of high volume breeders who sell all over the Nation and abroad so its getting tough to get away from them. But that happens with the Solids as well there are a lot of pedigrees I looked at that had the same Kennels listed over and over again.

I hope to have a line of Toy's started in 2012 and have found only 2 Multicolored breeders whom I would buy a dog from and they use a foundation of Parti and Solid colored dogs.


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## Keithsomething

I understand that people breed for the fad of having a parti or phantom, so they aren't trying to better the breed. 
but don't Phantom's and parti coloured poodles happen naturally? ((over breeding of something trying to get the colour you want is normal in the dog breeding world)) but to assume that something isn't as good because it doesn't uphold the breed standard is absurd to me xD
especially since the phantom and parti's occur naturally its not like the people breeding them are gene therapists able to choose their colours prior to birth

if I'm wrong and phantoms aren't a natural poodle colour my apologies xD


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## Purple Poodle

Keithsomething said:


> I understand that people breed for the fad of having a parti or phantom, so they aren't trying to better the breed.
> but don't Phantom's and parti coloured poodles happen naturally? ((over breeding of something trying to get the colour you want is normal in the dog breeding world)) but to assume that something isn't as good because it doesn't uphold the breed standard is absurd to me xD
> especially since the phantom and parti's occur naturally its not like the people breeding them are gene therapists able to choose their colours prior to birth
> 
> if I'm wrong and phantoms aren't a natural poodle colour my apologies xD


We don't really know. The Chesapeake Bay Retriever can come with tan points (phantom) and no one new thins until the right dogs got together, its still very rare but it does happen. I think with the Phantom Poodles there were two carriers who finally got together and it was allowed to be expressed.

EDIT: I've said this before but Shar Pei can come in pie bald (parti) but since it was not a "standard" color they were culled.


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## Cdnjennga

g8dhorse7 said:


> Still, like with my horses, I love contrast in color. I will just continue to research and look for the best fit for our family. I REALLY appreciate all the comments and knowledge you all are willing to share. Thank you!


I think the heart wants what it wants.  If I were you and had my heart set on a non solid, I would search for the best non solid breeder I could find. IMO that means full health tests on the breeding pair, some sort of titles (conformation and/ or performance) and adherence to the breed standard when it comes to structure, even if not for colour.

Good luck in your hunt and of course keep asking questions here!


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## Keithsomething

I agree if you want a parti/phantom go for it 
just do your research so you get a healthy well adjusted poodle pup 

I think which ever colour you choose to bring into your family will be an amazing dog/family member ^_^


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## cbrand

Keithsomething said:


> I understand that people breed for the fad of having a parti or phantom, so they aren't trying to better the breed.
> but don't Phantom's and parti coloured poodles happen naturally? ((over breeding of something trying to get the colour you want is normal in the dog breeding world)) but to assume that something isn't as good because it doesn't uphold the breed standard is absurd to me xD
> especially since the phantom and parti's occur naturally its not like the people breeding them are gene therapists able to choose their colours prior to birth
> 
> if I'm wrong and phantoms aren't a natural poodle colour my apologies xD


Light eyes, incorrect pigment, low tail sets, poor coats, big bulgy eyes and heavy heads with broad back skulls all occur naturally. Is it ok then to purposely breed Poodles to have these traits?

A breed standard is there in order to maintain the "look and feel" of the breed. When breeders go off on their own and purposely breed against the standard, a breed can quickly lose its type. 

Example...

There is a well known "performance" breeder on the west coast. She decided that as a water retriever, a Poodle really should be broader in the head, longer in the back, bigger bodied and shorter in the neck. In only a few generations, her Poodles have started to look like curly coated retrievers. They have lost the essence of Poodle.


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## Keithsomething

cbrand said:


> Light eyes, incorrect pigment, low tail sets, poor coats, big bulgy eyes and heavy heads with broad back skulls all occur naturally. Is it ok then to purposely breed Poodles to have these traits?
> 
> A breed standard is there in order to maintain the "look and feel" of the breed. When breeders go off on their own and purposely breed against the standard, a breed can quickly lose its type.
> 
> Example...
> 
> There is a well known "performance" breeder on the west coast. She decided that as a water retriever, a Poodle really should be broader in the head, longer in the back, bigger bodied and shorter in the neck. In only a few generations, her Poodles have started to look like curly coated retrievers. They have lost the essence of Poodle.


No I completely agree with you, I wasn't attacking the breed standard I am IN LOVE with poodles and I would never want something to take away from that

I was just curious why a parti/phantom wasn't a breed standard when it occurs naturally in nature if the build and health and pedigree is all ace why should the colour of the coat "disqualify" it
I'm not a judge I don't show dogs...I don't know how to begin anything of the sort
I'm just curious why something that seems to be natural is looked down upon in the poodle community

((I do understand that because of bad breeding people have made partis and phantoms not the best things in the world but thats the case with some soilds))

I don't see the a phantom or parti colour as a flaw where as "_Light eyes, incorrect pigment, low tail sets, poor coats, big bulgy eyes and heavy heads with broad back skulls_" are all flaws
but again...I'm not a handler or a breed expert


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## KPoos

The biggest issue I have with partis is the eyes. I don't know why but many do not have poodle eyes. A lot of well known breeders don't breed for good poodle eyes either. A poodle should have almond shaped eyes and that really does help with eye tearing and give them that soft but regal expression. Harry has a more round eye and he tears up and gets a lot of eye gunk in there. I love everything about him but his narrow head. I think that must be my favorite part of the poodle, the head. That and the front. Too many poodles are just flat chest. It throws the whole thing off especially when they are in a pet clip.


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## cbrand

Keithsomething said:


> I don't see the a phantom or parti colour as a flaw where as "_Light eyes, incorrect pigment, low tail sets, poor coats, big bulgy eyes and heavy heads with broad back skulls_" are all flaws
> but again...I'm not a handler or a breed expert


Parti color is called a disqualifying fault in our standard. It is a flaw. Why are flaws considered flaws within a breed? I think because they detract from the overall picture.

I can only guess why certain standards were developed, but here are some possible ideas:

A light eye in a Poodle gives a dog an expression that is too hard.
Heavy heads take away from a Poodle's elegance. 
Parti color detracts visually from a Poodle's structural outline and movement.


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## KPoos

cbrand said:


> Parti color is called a disqualifying fault in our standard. It is a flaw. Why are flaws considered flaws within a breed? I think because they detract from the overall picture.
> 
> I can only guess why certain standards were developed, but here are some possible ideas:
> 
> A light eye in a Poodle gives a dog an expression that is too hard.
> Heavy heads take away from a Poodle's elegance.
> *Parti color detracts visually from a Poodle's structural outline and movement.*


I disagree with that. If a prodominately white dog can show it's structural outline and movement appropriately then a dog that's prodominately white with some color to it should be able to do the same. Most partis are prodominately white with some color on the head and body. That shouldn't take away anything other than someone just doesn't like that splotchy color and forced that into the breed standard.


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## Keithsomething

That is really informative thank you Cbrand =]

and I agree with you Kpoos
perhaps the breed standard was developed by a solid coloured poodle owner so they just thought partis weren't as cute? lol


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## KPoos

Keithsomething said:


> That is really informative thank you Cbrand =]
> 
> and I agree with you Kpoos
> perhaps the breed standard was developed by a solid coloured poodle owner so they just thought partis weren't as cute? lol


Or (the rumor is) a parti owner was whoopin it up with his parti dog and the solid owners didn't like it so got together and made the standard more clear. It's just a rumor I heard and have no proof of it but it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was partially or even all true.


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## Keithsomething

lol
Urban ledgens about poodles 
-they're all girly- <------ not true
>.<
lol


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## KPoos

Keithsomething said:


> lol
> Urban ledgens about poodles
> -they're all girly- <------ not true
> >.<
> lol


Harry would bite your arm if you said that to him.LOL No not really but he is the furthest thing from girly. He's all boy even with his pompom bracelets.


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## cbrand

KPoos said:


> I disagree with that. If a prodominately white dog can show it's structural outline and movement appropriately then a dog that's prodominately white with some color to it should be able to do the same. Most partis are prodominately white with some color on the head and body. That shouldn't take away anything other than someone just doesn't like that splotchy color and forced that into the breed standard.


Go to www.partipoodleworld.com
Look at the section on Partis

I'm seeing patterning that makes toplines look dippy, toplines look roached, legs look short, backs look long, necks look short.

Now it could be that the majority of these dogs just have horrible conformation,  but it is hard to tell if it is simply a visual allusion.


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## g8dhorse7

I found this link a few minutes ago. http://www.planetpoodle.de/Artikel/a_0014e.php

I just adore the faces and the marking of these little guys.


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## KPoos

cbrand said:


> Go to www.partipoodleworld.com
> Look at the section on Partis
> 
> I'm seeing patterning that makes toplines look dippy, toplines look roached, legs look short, backs look long, necks look short.
> 
> Now it could be that the majority of these dogs just have horrible conformation,  but it is hard to tell if it is simply a visual allusion.


I've got a pretty good eye and IMHO, most of those dogs *are* dippy, too long in body, and the roach backed one was standing in sand so I'll give him that as a possibility. I don't think but 3 of those dogs represent a good standard in conformation but that doesn't mean it's not possible. I didn't have a hard time being able to see or not, what I want to see in order to make that determination based on their colors though. That would be like saying you can't tell if a merle dog is conformationally correct because of it's merling.


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## KPoos

g8dhorse7 said:


> I found this link a few minutes ago. http://www.planetpoodle.de/Artikel/a_0014e.php
> 
> I just adore the faces and the marking of these little guys.


Good bone structure and I love the eyes but I'm not a fan of the dobbie look in poodles. It does make them look too fierce when they are supposed to look sweet and kind.


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## Cdnjennga

g8dhorse7 said:


> I found this link a few minutes ago. http://www.planetpoodle.de/Artikel/a_0014e.php
> 
> I just adore the faces and the marking of these little guys.


Whoa, those look like dobie poodles! Interesting article.


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## Purple Poodle

I just wanted to say that the Parti Poodle World website is outdated and not the parent club for UKC the MCPCA is and their website is here http://multicoloredpoodleclubofamerica.org/index.html

Lots of standards have changed to allow different color patterns why should the Poodle be any different? 



> Parti color detracts visually from a Poodle's structural outline and movement.


I have to disagree, click, click, click, click.

To me the Parti Poodle is no different the the Parti Cocker, if the PCA wanted to split the verities like they do with Cockers I see no problem with it.


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## creativeparti

*Lots of standards have changed to allow different color patterns why should the Poodle be any different? *

well said purple poodle, 
as a owner of a parti poodle and someone who plans on useing him for compertions in grooming in the future i wanted to find one that had nice markings

im not saying that all the marking on partis are great some are very heavely marked and personally i dont like that but i still think they are a wonderful thing to look at...

partis are wonderful creatures as are all poodles. todd acts no diffrent to any other poodle there still the same breed,

it really annoys me when ppl are so against them they have been around for years 
http://www.thepartipoodleclub.co.uk/history_2.html

i recently wrote a artical on all the multi coloured poodles and if i can answer any questions i will...


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## Fluffyspoos

If partis are so faulted, how come they're winning ribbons in shows?

I'll always love any color of poodles, I'm not biased towards partis, phantoms, brindles, or solids.


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## creativeparti

because they are beautful


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## Fluffyspoos

Exactly.


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## Spencer

I adore phantoms, and have insisted that my next poo will be one. TheFiance has to agree, because I'm the boss (lol). I think the black and cream ones are gorgeous!

However... slightly off topic... after reading everything... Perry has a small patch of white on his chest - like a blaze - so that makes him a missmark?


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## Purple Poodle

It sure does Spencer!

There are quite a few Multicolored Poodles who are shown in AKC obedience events and a large number are shown in the UKC.

I did not think about owning and raising Poodles until I met my first Multi Color. Now I love the breed but it was the parti that brought me to it.


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## creativeparti

Purple Poodle said:


> It sure does Spencer!
> 
> There are quite a few Multicolored Poodles who are shown in AKC obedience events and a large number are shown in the UKC.
> 
> I did not think about owning and raising Poodles until I met my first Multi Color. Now I love the breed but it was the parti that brought me to it.


same here i loved the look of the parti... i love diffrent breedsand colours that you dont c everyday


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## WonderPup

With in poodles as a whole have the differnt colors and markins ever been linked to genetic health issues? 

They have in other breeds which is why I ask. Lack of pigment in my breed, which is what makes a tibbie parti colored or resulst in blue eyes and non black points, has links to several issues which is why these variations are not allowed. You can show a tibbie in any color with any marking so long as the nose and eye rims are totaly back and the eyes are dark in color. They don't always produce the worst case, we have a dog we bred who is now 12 yrs old, she is black with white markins and has one ice blue eye - no health issues. It was a complete shock when we realized what we had since we were very careful to go through the pedigrees and know what we were breeding to. It was a case of the stud dog throwing that problem often and nobody ever talked about it, the other breeder certainly didn't mention it when questioned. It took several years to pin down what the issue was and where it was comming from so that we could move forward. Sometime we see deafness in parti colored dogs but have not heard much about this being an issue in poodles. Different genetics after all. I have this really long explination on coat color genetics but even I don't fully understand it ROFL. It comes from a professor at the college here who's passion is color genetics in various animals. He breeds and shows Aussie's now, as well as breeding patterned/colored rabbits, chickens, peacocks, and male calico cats... Interesting stuff but I don't dare ask him about it anymore. I don't have that kind of time on my hands to stand there and listen to his rattle on about it, I've made that mistake a couple of times can you tell LoL.

My personal feeling on parti's and mismarks is that so long as there isn't a health issue tied to that marking (not tied to the bloodline itself I'm talking strictly color/markings here) then it should be ok. As for the parti marking distorting the outline of the dog and making the movement look different, I couldn't agree more that this is sometimes the case. However, the key word in that statement should be LOOK. It doesn't mean the dog isn't sound in structure and a good dog person or a halfway decent judge can feel for and see upclose what the actual structure of the dog is. Therefor it shouldn't be considered as a reason to decided only to allow solid colored dogs in the ring. That can't be the real reason.... is it? If so, thats laughable. 
As I understand it, were parti colored dogs part of the origional stock? It was only later that the standard excluded them. 

I'm curious as well to know where the phamtom markings came from origionaly since they show up in several color combonations. If they weren't present at the start doesn't it stand to reason something introduced the marking into the breed? 

So whats the real deal, are there physical defects that are tied to parti markins in poodle or not? I haven't found anything that says there are.


----------



## WonderPup

Purple Poodle said:


> if the PCA wanted to split the verities like they do with Cockers I see no problem with it.


Oh gosh, don't say that LoL. Just what we need ANOTHER poodle in the non sporting group. Have a care, the tibbies aren't nearly so flashy and have a hard time standing up next to the poodles ROFL. Sort of distracts your attention away from the fabulous little tibster when you put him next to a poodle. :doh: I'll lose all my future group wins, that'll be no fun at all. I'll have to resort to parti colored tibbies to keep up. hehehe.


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## Purple Poodle

WonderPup said:


> Oh gosh, don't say that LoL. Just what we need ANOTHER poodle in the non sporting group. Have a care, the tibbies aren't nearly so flashy and have a hard time standing up next to the poodles ROFL. Sort of distracts your attention away from the fabulous little tibster when you put him next to a poodle. :doh: I'll lose all my future group wins, that'll be no fun at all. I'll have to resort to parti colored tibbies to keep up. hehehe.


lol Its just a suggestion! Works for the Cockers  Or they could show separately and then go in for BOW and choose a BOB from the two. 

I have yet to find a Poodle with a coat color related illness. Nor have I seen one with blue eyes and/or deafness do to high white.


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## cbrand

Fluffyspoos said:


> If partis are so faulted, how come they're winning ribbons in shows?


Ummm because they are only shown in UKC against other Partis. Seriously, even those Partis that Purplepoodle posted (how's that for alliteration?) would probably not win against a poodle in AKC. The 1st one has an exceptionally coarse head (we call that a bucket head), the second one has terrible carriage, and the fourth one over-strides (I bet on the down and back she sidewinds like a beast). 

I'm not trying to be mean, but if people are using these as examples of how good Partis can be, you are not going to get anywhere with the AKC show poodle crowd.


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## creativeparti

WonderPup said:


> With in poodles as a whole have the differnt colors and markins ever been linked to genetic health issues?
> 
> They have in other breeds which is why I ask. Lack of pigment in my breed, which is what makes a tibbie parti colored or resulst in blue eyes and non black points, has links to several issues which is why these variations are not allowed. You can show a tibbie in any color with any marking so long as the nose and eye rims are totaly back and the eyes are dark in color. They don't always produce the worst case, we have a dog we bred who is now 12 yrs old, she is black with white markins and has one ice blue eye - no health issues. It was a complete shock when we realized what we had since we were very careful to go through the pedigrees and know what we were breeding to. It was a case of the stud dog throwing that problem often and nobody ever talked about it, the other breeder certainly didn't mention it when questioned. It took several years to pin down what the issue was and where it was comming from so that we could move forward. Sometime we see deafness in parti colored dogs but have not heard much about this being an issue in poodles. Different genetics after all. I have this really long explination on coat color genetics but even I don't fully understand it ROFL. It comes from a professor at the college here who's passion is color genetics in various animals. He breeds and shows Aussie's now, as well as breeding patterned/colored rabbits, chickens, peacocks, and male calico cats... Interesting stuff but I don't dare ask him about it anymore. I don't have that kind of time on my hands to stand there and listen to his rattle on about it, I've made that mistake a couple of times can you tell LoL.
> 
> My personal feeling on parti's and mismarks is that so long as there isn't a health issue tied to that marking (not tied to the bloodline itself I'm talking strictly color/markings here) then it should be ok. As for the parti marking distorting the outline of the dog and making the movement look different, I couldn't agree more that this is sometimes the case. However, the key word in that statement should be LOOK. It doesn't mean the dog isn't sound in structure and a good dog person or a halfway decent judge can feel for and see upclose what the actual structure of the dog is. Therefor it shouldn't be considered as a reason to decided only to allow solid colored dogs in the ring. That can't be the real reason.... is it? If so, thats laughable.
> As I understand it, were parti colored dogs part of the origional stock? It was only later that the standard excluded them.
> 
> I'm curious as well to know where the phamtom markings came from origionaly since they show up in several color combonations. If they weren't present at the start doesn't it stand to reason something introduced the marking into the breed?
> 
> So whats the real deal, are there physical defects that are tied to parti markins in poodle or not? I haven't found anything that says there are.


nicely said wonder pup....... there is no excat history known for the phantom poodle i have spent months reserching them and couldnt find a thing....

and yes like you said parti where possibly the origional stock of poodles.....so why they are so frowned upon will always confuse me 
i will allways have a muli coloured poodle or a nice white standard....


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## KPoos

I just want to know what you are talking about cbrand, when you say "bucket head." I want to make sure what I see is what you see.


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## creativeparti

cbrand said:


> Ummm because they are only shown in UKC against other Partis. Seriously, even those Partis that Purplepoodle posted (how's that for alliteration?) would probably not win against a poodle in AKC. The 1st one has an exceptionally coarse head (we call that a bucket head), the second one has terrible carriage, and the fourth one over-strides (I bet on the down and back she sidewinds like a beast).
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean, but if people are using these as examples of how good Partis can be, you are not going to get anywhere with the AKC show poodle crowd.




sorry but look here some partis are being show against solid coloured dogs 
http://te-awa.com/images/images/NelsonFirstVDHwin1.jpg

over here in the uk i have spoken to 2 diffrent judges and they said they have placed partis over solid coloured dogs even tho the colour is supposed to be a fault


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## creativeparti

http://te-awa.com/images/images/Bumstead1.jpg


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## Fluffyspoos

cbrand said:


> Ummm because they are only shown in UKC against other Partis. Seriously, even those Partis that Purplepoodle posted (how's that for alliteration?) would probably not win against a poodle in AKC. The 1st one has an exceptionally coarse head (we call that a bucket head), the second one has terrible carriage, and the fourth one over-strides (I bet on the down and back she sidewinds like a beast).
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean, but if people are using these as examples of how good Partis can be, you are not going to get anywhere with the AKC show poodle crowd.


But if partis are created from mismarks, which are born from solids, and say if those solids are AKC champs, then wouldn't the partis be able to some competition in shows from their parentage?

You won't see a parti in an AKC show competing because the color isn't allowed..


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## Purple Poodle

cbrand said:


> Ummm because they are only shown in UKC against other Partis. Seriously, even those Partis that Purplepoodle posted (how's that for alliteration?) would probably not win against a poodle in AKC. The 1st one has an exceptionally coarse head (we call that a bucket head), the second one has terrible carriage, and the fourth one over-strides (I bet on the down and back she sidewinds like a beast).
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean, but if people are using these as examples of how good Partis can be, you are not going to get anywhere with the AKC show poodle crowd.


I kind of think you are, you are extremely biased and I am sure you would find fault in any Parti regardless of how many wins it has. If the AKC would let Partis be shown maybe, just maybe it would help better the quality.

Anyway, color should be a personal choice and as long as it does not effect the health of the dog it should not matter.


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## wishpoo

As far as I know parti poodles are allowed to compete in regular exhibitions in Europe - something that would be equivalent to AKC here !!!! Also, I was told that in some Northern Europe countries unaltered tails are allowed !!!


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## WonderPup

cbrand said:


> Ummm because they are only shown in UKC against other Partis. Seriously, even those Partis that Purplepoodle posted (how's that for alliteration?) would probably not win against a poodle in AKC. The 1st one has an exceptionally coarse head (we call that a bucket head), the second one has terrible carriage, and the fourth one over-strides (I bet on the down and back she sidewinds like a beast).


I thought the poodle markings were divided into seperate classes in UKC but not into seperate varieties. So the colored dogs would be shown against the solid dogs for points right? I have never been to a UKC show but that is how I understood it to be from what little I read about it reccently. 

As for the opinions of the dogs PP posted pics of color is not what makes those dogs uncompetitive, poor comformation is doing that. Comformation is NOT nor has it ever been linked to color. It is fair to say that when working with a less common color or marking your gene pool may be limited and at first those dogs may not be as fantastic as they could be, thats the point of a breeding program actualy to improve, and after all isnt there always room for improvement. Isnt this what has been happening with red standards? At first it was so new there were very few red champions but with the work of the breeders working on this color the dogs improved in quality - again thats the whole point of a breeding program. Now you can find more and more of them if you look. 
This kind of goes back to the advice I was given by a judge friend of mine to only get a black or white poodle. Those are the two most popular colors so it would stand to reason that with more breeders working with those colors there would be more quality dogs out there in black or white?

I don't care for partis personaly, never had and likely never will in most breeds. I am mildly intrested in parti colored poodles but thats a recent thing since my puppy sire was a really nicely marked (noticed I said nicely marked, I didn't say amazing structure b/c I honestly don't know how great he is. I never got to see him in person), silver and white party.


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## cbrand

Purple Poodle said:


> I kind of think you are, you are extremely biased and I am sure you would find fault in any Parti regardless of how many wins it has. If the AKC would let Partis be shown maybe, just maybe it would help better the quality.
> 
> Anyway, color should be a personal choice and as long as it does not effect the health of the dog it should not matter.


I'm not biased, I'm just trying to uphold the established Poodle standard. 

Ok, let's turn it around. Pretend that these dogs are solid white. What makes them show/breeding quality?


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## cbrand

KPoos said:


> I just want to know what you are talking about cbrand, when you say "bucket head." I want to make sure what I see is what you see.


For what it is worth:

In the 1st picture, the dog looks very heavy and even clunky in the head. His muzzle is thick and lacks refinement. His fore-face also looks short. The standard says that the distance from stop to nose should = stop to occiput. I can't see his back-skull, but from the rest of his head, I would be willing to guess that he is wide in the back-skull as well.


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## Purple Poodle

cbrand said:


> I'm not biased, I'm just trying to uphold the established Poodle standard.
> 
> Ok, let's turn it around. Pretend that these dogs are solid white. What makes them show/breeding quality?


lol yes you are, you stated that no Parti color should be bred as "Parti coloring detracts from the regal look of a Poodle (especially a standard). Parti coloring makes a Poodle look clownish and not dignified or elegant." so yes you are in fact bias.

Why should we pretend they are Whites? I really like the dogs I posted pictures of. 

Dah (the first one) has a nice front and angles, nice tail set and expression. Here is her page from her breeders website http://www.highfalutinpoodles.com/dahpage.html

Rocco (the second dog) is very nice, he has nice proportions and tail set, he is only 2 years old. 

Ziva (the third dog) is very nice for a 1 year old Toy puppy.

Roxy (the last dog) I don't know much about but I think it has nice reach and drive, here is more info on her http://www.spiritpoodles.com/roxiespage.cfm


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## Dogsinstyle

Kaisers mother is a parti poodle. 
http://www.partipoodle.org/OurDogs/Sires/Kaiser/tabid/67/Default.aspx


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## g8dhorse7

Lots of information to process. I appreciate everyone contributing to this thread. My desire for a phantom has not been diminished though. But, if the right female came along it wouldn't matter to me what color she was. Like I've always said about horses, "a good horse is never a bad color." I think this applies to dogs as well. If I had my way I would have one of every color! LOL!

I do not plan on showing so I won't have to worry about what judges think of my spoo. Temperament, conformation, attitude, health and loveablility are what's important to me...that's what I look for in my horses (plus smooth gait!) and dogs. I won't go into the politics of the show ring.....been there done that. I don't need nor like the pressure and stress involved. Give me an open trail with great horses, hubby and a spoo and I'm a happy girl!

If anyone knows of a reputable breeder of phantoms, please let me know. I would love to have one that can start on the trails with us in the spring...but I'm patient.


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## cbrand

Purple Poodle said:


> Why should we pretend they are Whites? I really like the dogs I posted pictures of.


Because then you would take color out of the equation and evaluate the actual Poodle. 



> Dah (the first one) has a nice front and angles, nice tail set and expression. Here is her page from her breeders website http://www.highfalutinpoodles.com/dahpage.html


She made GRCH in UKC so she must have really great movement and structure. However, that is one unfortunate head on a bitch. I thought she was a dog. 



> Rocco (the second dog) is very nice, he has nice proportions and tail set, he is only 2 years old.


Yet, he has horrible carriage in that picture. He is slunked down. I don't think you would be able to finish a solid color Poodle in AKC who carried himself like this.



> Roxy (the last dog) I don't know much about but I think it has nice reach and drive, here is more info on her http://www.spiritpoodles.com/roxiespage.cfm


Good chance here for people to train their eye.. Look at her legs. See how she is over-stepping to the inside from the back. She has to do this to keep from interfering with her front leg. She is unbalanced. On the down and back you would most likely see her sindwind which is incorrect and at some level, unsound movement.


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## cbrand

g8dhorse7 said:


> "a good horse is never a bad color."




Yes they also say in horses... "You can't ride color."


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## KPoos

cbrand said:


> For what it is worth:
> 
> In the 1st picture, the dog looks very heavy and even clunky in the head. His muzzle is thick and lacks refinement. His fore-face also looks short. The standard says that the distance from stop to nose should = stop to occiput. I can't see his back-skull, but from the rest of his head, I would be willing to guess that he is wide in the back-skull as well.


Okay I gotcha. I don't like poodles with thick muzzles either but I've seen some show dogs that are so "refined" that the dog lacks a jaw at all and you can almost see the skull through the skin of the head. You've got to find that line and draw it at some point or you cross over into something else.

I was talking to someone about partis and they were telling me how at one point in time they had gotten them culled (I think this doesn't just mean euthanized but just not put back into the gene pool) to a point where there were hardly any and now you are beginning to see them more and more. Problem with that is that people are breeding for the parti color and the gene pool is small and that's why you are getting dogs that aren't very well put together in my opinion. I haven't seen many parti dogs that really can be that whole package (not looking at color as a factor) that represent the breed standard. I like them, I think that they are very pretty with their colors but I'd like to see them focus more attention on getting a very well put together parti dog instead of just pumping out the color. I guess that takes years and years to build though.


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## g8dhorse7

You are right, but luckily for me....I CAN RIDE COLOR! And that is due to my experience in training, showing, and riding hundreds of gaited horses. I know what to look for, which conformations encourage specific gaits, which lines in the gaited breeds produce the best temperaments, gait, conformation, etc. 

The color is a bonus when all the basic criteria is met. I certainly would not cull out a rocky mountain horse for having too much white on her head or legs, or for being a different color than the standard of chocolate or black. The purists may disagree, but this is just my feelings. We are lucky to have these fabulous pets in our lives. We should accept and love them for who they are just as they accept and love us. 

This thread is reminiscent of being back in school....the "different" kids were always picked on for their "abnormalities" instead of the person within.


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## cbrand

g8dhorse7 said:


> You are right, but luckily for me....I CAN RIDE COLOR! And that is due to my experience in training, showing, and riding hundreds of gaited horses.


Yeah! You know horses! I come from Saddlebreds and I don't know how well you know that breed. If you do though, think about this and relate it to Poodles. 

It is the very, very, very rare Pinto Saddlebred that comes even close to touching the quality of standard chestnut ASB. This is because Pinto ASB breeders let color come 1st and movement, temperment, and structure come after. All too often a Pinto ASB is bred simply because it was pinto. Had it been a solid color horse no one would have thought that it was worth breeding.

Just something to think about.


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## cbrand

KPoos said:


> Okay I gotcha. I don't like poodles with thick muzzles either but I've seen some show dogs that are so "refined" that the dog lacks a jaw at all and you can almost see the skull through the skin of the head. You've got to find that line and draw it at some point or you cross over into something else.


Well you are actually supposed to see the skull structure through the skin especially under the eye. It is called "chiseling" and it is highly desirable.

Lack of under jaw is just nasty and it is flip side problem to the dumpy, bucket head. In an attempt to get an ultra thin and elegant head, breeders are leaving the low jaw behind. You see these snippy muzzles with a nose just stuck on the end of a point. Yuck! Plus these dogs have trouble correctly picking up and holding a dumb bell let alone a duck!


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## g8dhorse7

I've owned two saddlebreds over the years. Both chestnut geldings. My friend had a pinto mare. I tried to trade her everyday for her mare. LOL! She was fabulous on all accounts..temperament, style, willingness, conformation, tractability, and sweetness. Maybe it was the just the luck of the draw, or gelding vs mare, or breeding, I'm not sure...but, both of my horses put me in the hospital due to their unpredictable behaviors. Lessons learned. Her mare taught her daughters how to ride and was one of the kindest horses I've ever come across. Probably nothing to do with her pinto markings, but if there was a little cross-breeding going on back in her lineage that produced a beautiful horse all around....well, she got the best horse from it. 

So, tell me....is it of general consensus that the colors produced in the poodle world are from intentional or accidental cross breeding in the past?


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## KPoos

cbrand said:


> Well you are actually supposed to see the skull structure through the skin especially under the eye. It is called "chiseling" and it is highly desirable.
> 
> Lack of under jaw is just nasty and it is flip side problem to the dumpy, bucket head. In an attempt to get an ultra thin and elegant head, breeders are leaving the low jaw behind. You see these snippy muzzles with a nose just stuck on the end of a point. Yuck! Plus these dogs have trouble correctly picking up and holding a dumb bell let alone a duck!


Well, I personally don't like seeing so much chisel that the dog looks like skin over skull. I think there should be a good balance and I've seen many that are and some that aren't. One thing I've noticed is that long time breeders have their own "look" to their lines. I've also noticed that dogs on the west coast have a different style or look than the dogs I see in Texas and the dogs on the east coast, same thing. I think that when it comes to breeding dogs, a lot the "style" of the line goes into the breeder's own interpretation of the breed standard and their own idea of attractiveness of the breed. Some find a very sturdy stocky big dog ideal whereas others breed for a very refined light boned dog because that's what they find attractive.


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## Underpants Gnome

*Breeders in Missouri*

The original question was about a breeder in Missouri who has phantom poodles. When I was looking for a standard poodle, I came across this breeder also and exchanged a few e-mails. I was concerned that this was a puppy mill, and based on the number of dogs available, it was a reasonable concern. I did a little research and discovered that Missouri is notorious for puppy mills. Take a look at this map, which shows the number of Commercial Breeders by State. http://www.maal.org/Puppy-Mills.asp Missouri has 1,525! The state with the next highest number only has 575, and most states don't even have 20! Missouri had very lax rules for commercial breeders and so puppy mills opened in that state. Now they are trying to impose more oversight but don't have the manpower. They have been trying since 2001 and the latest report in 2008 by the Missouri state auditor showed that the problems still exist. http://www.maal.org/Puppy-Mills.asp

So does this mean that every breeder in Missouri is a puppy mill? No, but it should make you think twice about any breeder in Missouri. And I feel sorry for any good breeder in Missouri, but the stuff that has come out about breeders in this state is just awful.

Okay, off my soap box now.


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## g8dhorse7

Thanks, UG. Good info to know.


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## jenk9design

I happen to own Roxie in the last picture and I can tell you she DOES NOT "sidewind like a beast". She is extremely balanced front to rear. Would I put more angles on both ends - yes. but she has great reach and drive becuase of her balance. I believe she is overreaching inthis picture becuase we are moving on a curve and in long grass. I would fault her on her tailset, croup, and eye shape. Partis have a LONG way to go. They are nowhere near their solid colored counterparts, but with proper breeding they may get there someday. But If I dyed Roxie black she would finish in AKC. Buyer beware when buying partis- it is a minefield of mills out there.
Also, please ask me before using my photos.


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## Purple Poodle

jenk9design said:


> Also, please ask me before using my photos.


I binged for images of Champion Partis and her photo came up, I linked to the picture and provided the link to your site. No bandwidth was taken nor was it hot linked. But now that we know who you are we will surely ask before hand.


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## zyrcona

Necroposting, but how about this UKC champion café phantom bitch?

UKC RBIS GRAND CHAMPION - AKC Bonjohn's Sisco Java I Stand Too Please CGC

I think she looks like a nice bitch, although I'm not that impressed with how she's been clipped in some of the shots. On the other hand, I probably don't know what the hell I'm talking about. ;-)


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## Courtney_20_00

Ok here goes......Flo comes from HT poodles and I actually know the very well. I groomed there dogs for them and took care of the kennel area's also before I went back to work as a vet tech. They live about 40 minutes from me. Flo is out of 2 phantom parents. Atticus and Sunny, I use to whelp their dogs for them and take care of all the dogs. But both of these dogs are being fixed due to Flo possibly having DLE lupus. Yes all breeders have gotten bad raps bc of the bad ones here. But there are ALOT of good breeders out there. There kennel is one of the nicest one I have EVER been in and working in 2 diff vets office's I have seen some of the WORST kennels ever. I use to do alot of kennel inspections with my previous boss and it was very sad to go to these kennels. So yes they do have a good kennel and yes we are in the "puppymill" capital. But I know from personal experience and having one of their dogs that they are good breeders.


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## Bobby Bear

A 1940s Phantom Poodle....so no they are not a new fad,but a naturally occuring colouring that has been around for years..shame lots of breeders used to cull them!!!


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## Kloliver

Courtney_20_00 said:


> Ok here goes......Flo comes from HT poodles and I actually know the very well. I groomed there dogs for them and took care of the kennel area's also before I went back to work as a vet tech. They live about 40 minutes from me. Flo is out of 2 phantom parents. Atticus and Sunny, I use to whelp their dogs for them and take care of all the dogs. But both of these dogs are being fixed due to Flo possibly having DLE lupus. Yes all breeders have gotten bad raps bc of the bad ones here. But there are ALOT of good breeders out there. There kennel is one of the nicest one I have EVER been in and working in 2 diff vets office's I have seen some of the WORST kennels ever. I use to do alot of kennel inspections with my previous boss and it was very sad to go to these kennels. So yes they do have a good kennel and yes we are in the "puppymill" capital. But I know from personal experience and having one of their dogs that they are good breeders.


I wholeheartedly AGREE with Courtney_20_00! :cheers2: &, as it turns out, we have littermates. 

I don't think it's a coincidence that both of our dogs are on their way as therapy dogs. That, I feel speaks volumes. Rango has been called an 'Ambassador for his Breed'; he passed his CGC before 10 months & I can't tell you how many people comment on how mellow & sweet he is.

I've also had several AKC show people comment on his conformation. Their litter has MANY CH titled solids in it's line, so care was taken. Linda & Julie have been available to answer my questions & show a genuine interest in his development.

*chuckle* This wasn't intended as a boast post but all indications indicate (to me, at least) a responsible breeder whose intention is to keep improving the line.


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## Kloliver

*More info from another Breeder/ Thread*

Take a read of this post & take Tabatha of Nola Standards up on her offer.

http://www.poodleforum.com/16-poodle-breeder-directory/8018-happy-tails-carthage-mo.html


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

cbrand said:


> Breeds have Standards. The standard is the blue print breeders use for maintaining the overall look, movement and in some cases temperament in a breed.
> Breed standards are not set in stone for all eternity. They are constantly evolving and most breed standards are changed or updated periodically. While breed standards "define" the breed often the standards are quite subjective and left open to a good deal of interpretation and personal choice. Breed standards frequently vary from country to country. It has only been in recent years that the "red" poodle has become recognized in many countries, especially the European ones. As people become more and more sensitive to docking and the issues surrounding it, breed standards are being changed to acknowledge those sensitivities... and establish ideals for natural tails. Less than 2 decades ago,many purebred poodle rescues here in the USA wouldn't accept a poodle with an undocked tail. I often wondered how a full tail could make a poodle, any less than a poodle, but in many peoples eyes, it seems to do so.
> 
> People think color is not a big deal and that any and all colors should now be OK in poodles.
> 
> Again, breed standards "evolve" over time. There are pros and cons to any of those changes. I tend to look at color from a different perspective, that people think color IS a big deal.. and are liking some of the previously unrecognized colors and/or patterns. We have already seen changes in some breed standards to allow for this and I anticipate more changes to more standards in different kennel clubs throughout the world.
> 
> 
> Well what about coats. How do you feel about flat coated poodles? Ever heard of Bluebells? These tend to pop up in Mini litters. They are born a gun-metal gray all over and they have flat, non-curly coats? Should we start showing these in UKC as well? Or is there something about the curly coat that defines "Poodle".
> 
> 
> As time passes, popular opinion dictates what people are interested in... and how the standard changes and evolve. It will be interesting to see what changes take place in the future. A flat coated poodle doesn't sound to poodley to me, but it takes way more than just coat to make a poodle. I have a girl with SA (mild case, thankfully!). She is every bit a poodle, even when her SA flares up and she loses patches of her hair... and then the hair that regrows is of different color and texture. I've seen photos of unfortunate poodles with SA who have very little hair left on their bodies anywhere, yet I would have to say that they are still poodles. Hate to say it, I'm also aware of poodles with SA who have been bred and who have regrown coats to the extent that it's not evident they have SA. I don't believe that these poodles belong anywhere near a ring or a breeding program (anymore than I think a flat coated poodle does), yet there are people out there who don't seem to have problems with it. [/COLO


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

cbrand said:


> Because then you would take color out of the equation and evaluate the actual Poodle.
> 
> 
> 
> She made GRCH in UKC so she must have really great movement and structure. However, that is one unfortunate head on a bitch. I thought she was a dog.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet, he has horrible carriage in that picture. He is slunked down. I don't think you would be able to finish a solid color Poodle in AKC who carried himself like this.
> 
> 
> 
> Good chance here for people to train their eye.. Look at her legs. See how she is over-stepping to the inside from the back. She has to do this to keep from interfering with her front leg. She is unbalanced. On the down and back you would most likely see her sindwind which is incorrect and at some level, unsound movement.


I've yet to see a perfect poodle, fault can be found with each, some more than others. I've seen plenty of AKC Ch. I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole and some.. that I had to really wonder what the judges were thinking.

It's really important to keep in mind that breeds (and bloodlines within those breeds).. evolve and develop, that breeders work on developing desireable traits. It doesn't just happen over night, it is an ongoing process. Because our breed standard made parti's, phantoms etc, "unacceptable" for years only "unacceptable" breeders could admit to having them. One of the consequences of that is difficulty making improvements in type because of lack of available genetic resources.. it was "taboo" for any "good" breeders to associate with "unacceptable" breeders. I am aware of many tales of "good" breeders culling puppies with mismarks or unacceptable color or patterns by killing. It is only in recent years that breeders are becoming a bit more open about it and that it's not considered as shameful and something to be hidden. Due to the huge popularity of the parti, brindle, phantom, sable, (etc) poodles, there has been a tremendous demand for them, which made the prices go through the roof. A handful of breeders initially hit the financial jackpot by inbreeding heavily on lines known to produce these traits. Because they were breeding for profit, the focus was on production, not on quality. The amount of inbreeding was tremendous and most of the established color lines scare the day lights out of me from a health perspective. There are now many breeders involved with parti's and patterned poodles who are sincerely interested in the wellbeing of these uniquely colored poodles. They are working towards improved structures, doing their health testing, etc. Despite the color and the patterns, these poodles are still.. poodles. It amazes me when I see how far the solid colored breeders have come (ok, sometimes I think we've come too far..) historically having dealt with many of the structural issues the color breeders are now trying to address, yet had the colored(patterned) poodles not been ostracized by the breed standard in the first place, I suspect that the structures would be equal to those of the solid poodles. There are some really nicely structure parti's out there.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Bobby Bear said:


> A 1940s Phantom Poodle....so no they are not a new fad,but a naturally occuring colouring that has been around for years..shame lots of breeders used to cull them!!!



Not only culled, but zipped their lips about it too as they didn't want other people to know that they had "defective" genes in their lines. For some folk, breeding is such a game of ego.. at our poodles expense. I see the same thing going on today. but with health issues rather than color.

Many of the "silver" solids poodles are actually phantoms.. take a good look at them some time. I have also suspected that there is another reason for the name "phantom".... just a suspicion....

A couple of years ago I had a couple of phantom pups born to solid parents. I had anticipated solid blue pups out of that breeding and was stunned at the phantom markings. First time that has ever happened to me and I was a bit surprised. I was even more surprised when I started getting the old negative headshake from some solid breeders, and even more surprised when one gave me her condolences! Then came even a bigger surprise.... the phantom markings faded. Both of those "pups" are solid blue to all appearances. It makes me wonder how many other blues out there were phantom marked at birth with the markings fading as they aged. And it made me wonder if yet another reason for the name "phantom" isn't just due to the mask.. but perhaps to the disappearing markings as well???


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## Opus

*Phantoms*

I did not take the time to read all the replies to your query. However, if you are willing to go the distance or to ship.... here is a link you may just want to follow. 
Breeders Kennel name is Elegance
Breeders name is Lyne Corneau
I will personally vouch for her. She has an excellent sales contract and will ship. She speaks both french and english. NEVE, her bitch is due in a few days. I am not sure she is taking more reservations...but you can try. Neve is petite, weighing less than 40 pounds and mesuring about 22 inches. She has an awesome temperament. How do I know... 
My bitches come fro Lyne. I live 20 minutes from her place and we have been sharing discussions together for the last 6 years. I am not biased....I WOULD NOT vouch for anyone I did not beleive in 100%. 
Here is her website. 
http://canicheparticolor.com 
Good luck finding your phantom.


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## Ren

g8dhorse7 said:


> I am so enjoying this forum! I'm learning a lot from all the posts, and the knowledgeable folks here. I am actively searching for my "dream" spoo, smaller female, phantom color, as a pet only. I am not interested in showing. I spent time in the ring with my horses and now prefer trail riding with hubby and friends. Our dogs travel with us when we camp and they are our "fids." So, please be patient with me as I ask lots of questions and inquire about breeders.
> 
> Anyone have knowledge of these folks? http://www.htpoodles.com/index.html
> 
> Again, as in another thread, the puppies are so adorable! It's hard to get past those pretty faces and dig into the "meat" of the operation. LOL!


with so many puppies ..consider it a puppy mill


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## PeggyTheParti

Ren said:


> with so many puppies ..consider it a puppy mill


Since this thread is over 10 years old, I’m going to close it to further replies to avoid any confusion.


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