# Partial cruciate ligament tear in toy poodle - conservative treatment?



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I can offer only commiseration with you and with dear Poppy. With you over the predicted but surprising frailty and vulnerability of older companions, and with Poppy over the pain, restriction, and long recovery of soft tissue damage (in my case, tennis elbow). I hope the weather over the next few weeks remains conducive to long, snuggly evenings indoors, and many wishes to Poppy for a full and speedy recovery!

Did your vet recommend a brace?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

No - just rest at this stage. I commiserate with your tennis elbow - I whacked my arm in a fall back in September and it has taken until now not to wake me up in the night. I'm hoping to be able to use a trowel by Spring!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Aww I am really sorry to hear that this is the diagnosis following on to your weekend thread about limping. Getting old sure stinks. Maybe that leg can have a wrap done that will support it?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Complete rest, and here is advice or knowledge as it were I was given from my vet, small dogs or rather tiny dogs can and do get along very well on three legs without issue or rather wear and tear on their bodies. It is larger dogs that suffer more with damage and the wear and tear on their other limbs due to weight and size. So basically you can pass on surgery and no harm will be done. 
Hope that makes sense


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Aww, all I can do is commiserate. I'm sure she needs some TLC more then ever from Mom.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Very much what my vet said, Twyla. He said that for a young rottweiler he would consider surgery sooner rather than later, but a poodle weighing less than 5 kilos will put much less stress on the joint, and should do well with conservative care. I am trying to stop her bouncing, but you know poodles, even elderly ones! Reassuring that it won't necessarily mean the other knee failing in a few months though - thanks.

I need to wrap my mind around this new reality, and find the best way through. In due course we may need to look for a physiotherapist, but for now I will concentrate on rest. She is being very good about peeing and pooing immediately - all those years encouraging toileting on cue really pay off at times like this.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I am so sorry to hear this! I have a friend with a cat she rescued that was lame when found. Vet could not find cause for the lameness but over time she recovered. A year(ish) later the cat suddenly presented very lame in the same leg and was diagnosed with a full torn CCL. It was believed that the initial lameness was due to a partial CCL injury that eventually gave out. But in between, the cat was perfectly fine other than avoiding high jumps. I think it is very reasonable to expect good recovery with avoidance of strenuous activity. I think you have a good course of action. The CCL surgery is really rough and I would not want to put a senior through it if it can be avoided.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

What did your vet say about Gabapentin? Because although for pain relief a side effect is a mellower pet


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

We agreed that at the moment the balance is against any pain relief that might adversely affect her liver. The Prednidale she is taking for liver failure is anti-inflammatory and pain relieving, and she is not showing any signs of significant pain - in fact the problem is keeping her from leaping around and doing the poodle bounce. If she should be in severe pain the balance would shift, of course, but for now I think she is OK.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

So sorry it happened; so glad that she's with you.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m sorry, Poppy. You’ve got so much on your plate already. Time to curl up with your doting human and get to healing. Maybe some extra chicken for supper?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Just what Poppy is doing, PtP, after an extra big chunk of chicken!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Perfect! Sending poodle and human hugs from Washington.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

fjm said:


> No - just rest at this stage. I commiserate with your tennis elbow - I whacked my arm in a fall back in September and it has taken until now not to wake me up in the night. I'm hoping to be able to use a trowel by Spring!


I hope you recover in time for the start of gardening season. I go days without pain and become hopeful, but then I pick up something with a little weight - a small appliance or a jug of water - and the now familiar twinge burns my arm. I'm impatient.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Poor Poppy and poor you - this is not fun.

My friend's elderly cockerspaniel partially tore a ligament. Her vet recommended surgery, but friend hemmed and hawed because he was elderly, it was very expensive surgery and this would be a terrible stress on him and he may not recover from it. She had a second opinion who said to start with bedrest and keep his activity limited and give it a chance to heal. If it didn't improve she could still have surgery. Enough healing took place that two years later he can walk up stairs without a limp but he doesn't walk far and is no longer jumping. He has slowed down significantly. I mention this because maybe Poppy can heal enough that she can be mobile again.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks Skylar. Poppy is already only walking shortish distances - up to 1.5 miles at a time on a good day, and was beginning to find stairs a struggle. If we can get her to the point where she can safely jump onto furniture and go for gentle walks I will be happy - easy enough to carry her up and down stairs etc. We are now 12 months on from her diagnosis with liver failure so every good month is a bonus...


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I have no experience to offer but I am really sorry Poppy has to suffer again. Good news is there is no tear. I’m sure you will take very good care of her, as you always do.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I'm sorry to hear this, poor Poppy  
My Jasper ended up with a torn ligament and he was able to recover to full mobility without surgery. He was a furniture jumper but that has to stop after the injury. He is able to do everything but jump on the couch after his recovery.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

That is reassuring, Dogs4Life. How long did Jasper take to recover? Furniture jumping is going to be the most difficult thing to prevent - she has already hopped up once or twice while my attention was briefly off her - I must do better!

Emerging from the internet rabbit holes, and discarding the extreme positions ("No dog will recover without surgery" v "No dogs need surgery - it is a money making vet scam"), and the wilder alternative proposals, the sensible advice is pretty consistent and very much her vet's advice - very limited exercise at first with no stress on the joint, and very carefully increased gentle walking over a number of months. Remembering my own knee injury 18 months ago I can understand that programme - I stupidly kept on walking and gardening and generally getting on with things and blew something that might have resolved in a month or two into a complex mess that still occasionally hurts. When I eventually saw a physiotherapist I was horrified when she said recovery would take months rather than weeks - she said I should count myself fortunate I was getting slowly better without surgery! 

We can do this - Poppy crated or leash in my hand at all times, day and night; hot water bottle and treats for Poppy in the car crate while I walk Sophy, and perhaps a buggy for when the weather gets warmer. She is already learning to wait beside me to be picked up rather than attempting stairs or longer distances - the tricky bits are sudden exciting happenings, like spotting a favourite neighbour, or the arrival of a delivery at the door. We both need a little time to adjust, and for me to accept this new reality - it is hard to have the pleasures of relaxed walks and easy going home life wrenched away and replaced by yet more Thou Shalt Nots...


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Well I know how all that is, Beatrice varies in her wellness post cancer diagnosis, keeping her engaged mentally while she didn't feel up to walking was done by carrying, I have a sling for her. I found that post all her various surgeries that she loves going along to sniff the air and watch the world from the safety of my arms.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Our summers get quite hot, and it's difficult to get Mia enough exercise when she's melting. A couple of years ago I started taking her for afternoon drives, with windows down, through wooded areas where she can see and smell interesting things like two and four legged pedestrians, squirrels, even deer sometimes. We drive for about 20-25 minutes, and she is stimulated enough to nap afterwards.


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## Poodlesandbeagles (Oct 23, 2020)

I had a 10 lbs rat terrier and also a beagle that had surgery for torn ACL. Both dogs had pain and limped even after surgery. I would either skip the surgery or see a specialist surgeon if I ever have another dog with a torn ACL. I am sorry you and Poppy are having to deal with this. I hope she is able to recover quickly and without pain.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

We took Gracie on drives, too. It can be a surprisingly satisfying sniffing adventure.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

When Poppy was first ill a year ago I would let her sniff around for 5 minutes wherever we were walking, then pop her back in the car while I walked Sophy. I have been reading up on rehab, and the progress from 5 minute walks to 20 minutes can be quite swift - 20 minutes would be ample for our early morning short walk: Rehabilitating the canine cruciate patient: part one. If we were able to do half hour walks by May I would be very happy! It will, of course, depend on how she does and what her vet advises, but having a goal makes caution in the early weeks and months much easier.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I used to dog-sit a shih-poo, she tore her cruciate but also had liver disease so surgery was not ideal. Her owners took her for hydrotherapy and three months later you would never have known anything happened. She was 10 or so at the time.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

It may take a while but we all know you'll have Poppy under the best of care. Picturing pleasant rambles in May til then.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

She is being very good and very easy - I really feel for anyone trying to manage a young, energetic dog through weeks on leash! I plan on exploring hydrotherapy and physiotherapy, with my vet's advice of course. Most of the physio I can do at home, but it would be useful and safer to be shown how to do it correctly. I am less sure about the hydrotherapy - it would need a treadmill rather than a pool, and even then I fear she may panic if I were not with her, and COVID will make that tricky...


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Aww good thoughts to you and Poppy. You certainly have had your cup run over lately. You will have Poppy keeping comfortable and in good spirits.


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## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

I’m sorry to hear about additional problem Peggy got. And for you it’s further vigilance. Can’t speak about poodles, but for humans, the first stages are rest, possible moist warm compress ( dry heat feels good, but later makes pain worse). If, eventually, towards the very warm weather, you could get access to pool= hydrotherapy, it would help healing and strengthening simultaneously. Moving paws in the water is easy, because there is no sense of gravity. Until then, you are doing the best you can. I know there are mini step ramps made for little dogs. To avoid walking on the steps, you might be able to find mini-ramp, which is flat, but at an angle, just tall enough for Puppy to reach from floor to the couch. Once she understands how it helps, she will go up the ramp instead of jumping. Just a thought...
Warm wishes to you and the girls.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Oh my, just finding this thread. You take such wonderful care of Poppy. And now you have the experience of trying to recover too fast yourself, so you know to go slow, baby step slow, and stop if she shows hesitation. She is so lucky to have you taking care of her! Healing thoughts and energy coming her way


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

How’s Poppy doing today? Is she still favouring the leg? It probably makes your job of keeping her calm easier if she’s still feeling some discomfort.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

She is still stiff but is walking on it and not showing signs of severe discomfort. She is also back to pogo-poodle bouncing when I'm preparing her meals, and managing it without falling over. I am pretty sure it should be on the list of forbidden activities but I might as well tell her not to breath as not to bounce! 

I am very glad I took her to the vet when I did. Had I waited I would have thought the injury was resolving by itself and started full activity much too soon, and probably faced a complete rupture in a few weeks' time. As it is we are aiming for slow and steady, and hoping to be back to longish ambles by Summer.

I have just about caught up on lost sleep, and have blitzed the kitchen and sitting room, both of which have got messy and neglected while I've been focussing on Poppy, so I feel a lot better and the house is considerably more comfortable!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Ahhh! That does sound like a relief. A clean home is so good for the soul.

And good point about that vet visit. Something I’ll be keeping in mind for future injuries.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Poppy has just had her two week checkup and vet says she is doing extremely well. Liver issues are well managed, knee is still a bit sore but considerably better, and she was generally brighter and bouncier than he had seen her for some time (unsurprising as the last few visits have been for vomiting, extreme lameness and acute cystitis!). His advice is to build up exercise very gradually - he knows that I will have researched to the nth degree and won't risk rushing things. 

The weather has improved tremendously here - mild, with light winds and even some sunshine - so I have been taking Poppy strolling for a hundred yards or so after walking Sophy. Even that was a bit too much for her this afternoon - I noticed she was favouring the leg a little and carried her the rest of the way back to the car. Now hoping for a gradual, uneventful recovery...


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Happy to hear the positive update. You take such great care that you take with all your animals.


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## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> Poppy has just had her two week checkup and vet says she is doing extremely well. Liver issues are well managed, knee is still a bit sore but considerably better, and she was generally brighter and bouncier than he had seen her for some time (unsurprising as the last few visits have been for vomiting, extreme lameness and acute cystitis!). His advice is to build up exercise very gradually - he knows that I will have researched to the nth degree and won't risk rushing things.
> 
> The weather has improved tremendously here - mild, with light winds and even some sunshine - so I have been taking Poppy strolling for a hundred yards or so after walking Sophy. Even that was a bit too much for her this afternoon - I noticed she was favouring the leg a little and carried her the rest of the way back to the car. Now hoping for a gradual, uneventful recovery...


You are between the rock and hard plate; Poppy needs your help more than previously and your own knee is giving you hard time. 
You mentioned using hot water bottle on Poppy. Does it help? Moist heat on the strained/inflamed muscle, especially after walking, might help her. If not water bottle, then small towel dipped in hot water, squeezed slightly, enclosed in thick plastic, put over her paw, and wrapped around with another towel. If it gives her relief, she may stay put quietly.
As for your knee, have you ever tried Arnica gel or cream? Either has an anti-inflammatory properties, doesn’t include menthol, but has some alcohol in it. When applied and rubbed into the inflamed muscle scale, it provides gentle warmth, no burning, smell is very mild, doesn’t leave greasy residue. Just wash hands after using it, so not to touch your face or eyes. The link below is to amazon. 


Amazon.com : arnica gel


Unfortunately, it can’t be used on dogs, but is quite helpful for humans. 
Hope rest therapy is helpful for both of your recovery.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks Mick - I may try the hot water bottle on my own bursitis, which has flared up again. My own fault - the key to controlling it is to keep moving but not overdo it, but the weather was so bad I spent several days mostly sitting, and then walked a lot as soon as it was warmer. Sophy appreciated the exercise, though - she slept away the evening, instead of pinging off the walls with cabin fever!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Interesting, for my own bad joints I have better luck with ice packs than with hot packs. My chiropractor recommended 20 minutes of one, then 20 minutes of the other, but I find just doing 20 minutes of ice packs, 20 minutes of nothing, and then twenty minutes of icepacks works best for me. 
I have not tried it on my spoo though.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Yes - the physio recommended just ice packs for my knee until the swelling went down - I went through several packs of peas as it took weeks. Reading the research there seem to be mixed views, so I suspect different combinations work for different people and slightly different causes of pain.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I too have bad joints now, ice packs reduce the swelling, heat feels good. LOL and I usually need advil 2x a day.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm now taking paracetamol twice a day - there have been moments I have eyed up the animals' metacam when I've run low!


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## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> Thanks **** - I may try the hot water bottle on my own bursitis, which has flared up again. My own fault - the key to controlling it is to keep moving but not overdo it, but the weather was so bad I spent several days mostly sitting, and then walked a lot as soon as it was warmer. Sophy appreciated the exercise, though - she slept away the evening, instead of pinging off the walls with cabin fever!


It’s human, to forget the recommended exercises, when the pain isn’t bothering you. The bad weather ( cold, rain) worsens the inflammation regardless of your activity level; that’s the nature of the beast. That’s why I mentioned Arnica gel. It can be used on the affected area, multiple times/day, while you inactive and bursitis gets worse. It also can be used prior to going for the walks - it’ll “ warm up the muscle/tendon/ligament tissue” prior to you putting the strain on the affected knee. Then, upon return, as long as the skin is not sweaty, you can apply more to help you deal with the post-exertion stage. 
For Poppy, Angelica can’t be used, so 
the best preventative is moist heat in advance of exercise (not to go out right after compress was removed), and upon return, to help her with the pain post-walking.


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