# Lowest COI I have seen yet!



## ArreauStandardPoodle

I am so excited! Our next breeding will be Quincy and Jenny. I ran a test breeding, and their pups will have a COI of 0.49% for twelve generations. I know some people do not care about low COI, but we do, so I am absolutely thrilled!!!


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## Countryboy

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I ran a test breeding


Too bad ya don't get some little test puppies from a test breeding, eh?

That would be fun!!  lol


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Nah! No test puppies for us. We like the real deal, little munchkins to snuggle and love!


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## rikkia

It's nice to see a breeder get excited over such a low COI! Is it wrong to congratulate something like that? Either way congratulations to you, the pups are getting the best possible start in life when you consider things such as COI before they are even born.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

rikkia said:


> It's nice to see a breeder get excited over such a low COI! Is it wrong to congratulate something like that? Either way congratulations to you, the pups are getting the best possible start in life when you consider things such as COI before they are even born.


Thanks so much! We take lots of things into account...COI, health testing of the parents, health testing behind the parents, and we research the parents ancestors like crazy. We really are pleased about this potential litter. Jenny's health testing results were phenomenal and she has OFA excellent hips. Quincy's S/A just came back normal and the vet feels his hips and elbow results are going to be wonderful. The rest of his testing (Eyes cardiac, thyroid) will be complete mid April...Lots of tools in the toolbox, and we are trying to utilize them all.


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## CT Girl

I am with you; I do see this as important. That is very low - great news!


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## Paragon

Congratulations Cherie! 

What are you looking at for the Wycliff? Sounds like something exciting!.... 

We have an exciting one planned later as well. Princie, out of your mom's boy will be having Silver pups as soon as Liza comes in. We also have one planned with a lost apricot line. I have to flesh things out a bit, but the COI, and Wycliff look great!

Send some photos please...

Paragon


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Ohhhhh....Paragon!! Talk to me! I met Princie at a couple of dog shows and got some lovely pictures of him. I have a thing for the silvers and have been missing Thinker like crazy!! It will be like old home week watching your babies grow up! I think the silvers are the cutest Poodle babies with their dark bodies and gorgeous light faces. I am excited to see them and hear all about Thinker's grandkids!

I am not sure what you mean about Wycliffe? My reds have none behind them (well...maybe wayyyyyyyy back!) and Quincy has some, but a long way back too. I am just so pleased with this COI! Trillium, my co-owner, and myself are big believers in the lower the better, particularly after reading the Canine Diversity Project's write up on it. Our goal has been 7% or less, so to have this potential union where it is so low, well, it just turns my crank.


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## Indiana

That's so awesome! You're a real asset to the breed.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Indiana said:


> That's so awesome! You're a real asset to the breed.


That is incredibly kind! Thank you VERY much!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am not sure what you mean about Wycliffe? My reds have none behind them (well...maybe wayyyyyyyy back!) and Quincy has some, but a long way back too. I am just so pleased with this COI! Trillium, my co-owner, and myself are big believers in the lower the better, particularly after reading the Canine Diversity Project's write up on it. Our goal has been 7% or less, so to have this potential union where it is so low, well, it just turns my crank.


Sounds like a nice low COI.

During the genetic bottleneck in the 60's, 70's and 80's the standard poodle breed as a whole, lost much of it's genetic diversity. I can't remember the exact statistic, but I believe that I read somewhere recently that the average standard poodle today typically has more than 50% of it's genes from the Wycliffe poodles, with black standard poodles having an even higher percentage (on average). A common theory is that this lack of diversity is behind a lot of our health issues. Because the Wycliffe era is now so many generations out, most poodles will show up on a 10 or even a 15 generation pedigree as being without any of the Wycliffe poodles, when in fact, their pedigree may be founded on Wycliffe.


The PHR is now posting estimated Wycliffe Influence for each poodle, along side of the calculated COI. The Standard Poodle Database, which has an excellent test breeding calculator will also calculate Wycliffe influence. 

Per the PHR, the Wycliffe Influence for Jenny is nearly 20% and for Quincy, right around 40%. both of these are below average (which I think is excellent!!!!) 

One of the problems with higher Wycliffe (or higher inbreeding on any one line of poodles for that matter) is the higher the COI, the more likely the poodle is homozygous at the MHC. The higher the Wycliffe influence, the more likely the poodle is for carrying at least one Type 1 haplotype and as that influence gets progressively higher, the odds are in favor of having an MHC which is a homozygous 1.

Hope all breeders take the time to really check out the Standard Poodle Project Website, great info there. 

Congrats again on the low COI.. and as well as the below average Wycliffe in the parents!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Wow! Thanks Yadda...I was not aware of the Wycliffe calculator on PHR. Is it on the vertical pedigrees of each dog? What is the average? 40% seems a high number, but if it is below average, something else we can work on...


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## Paragon

Hello Cherie,

I would love for you to come see the babies! Silver is my favourite too... although Red is awful nice! Maybe you could help grade.

Princie is doing great! He loves it at the farm, as well as the pond and geese.... He is a poodle after all.... He is teaching my younger girl to Quarter and Point.

Good Wycliff behind your guys. Good news alround. I look forward to seeing photos.

I know the Wycliff is way back on our kids too, well below average, but it is still there. Lots of fancy dogs, but not the sort of breeding I would like. I like the low COI too! You can find the Wycliff on the Poodle Health Registry Database. It just showed up in the last bit. You don't have to buy the disk, and run it. Amazing!

The Apricot I want to use has something around 2% for the other breeding. Exciting stuff!

Paragon


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Paragon said:


> Hello Cherie,
> 
> I would love for you to come see the babies! Silver is my favourite too... although Red is awful nice! Maybe you could help grade.
> 
> Princie is doing great! He loves it at the farm, as well as the pond and geese.... He is a poodle after all.... He is teaching my younger girl to Quarter and Point.
> 
> Good Wycliff behind your guys. Good news alround. I look forward to seeing photos.
> 
> I know the Wycliff is way back on our kids too, well below average, but it is still there. Lots of fancy dogs, but not the sort of breeding I would like. I like the low COI too! You can find the Wycliff on the Poodle Health Registry Database. It just showed up in the last bit. You don't have to buy the disk, and run it. Amazing!
> 
> The Apricot I want to use has something around 2% for the other breeding. Exciting stuff!
> 
> Paragon


Ahhhh...it is all starting to fall into place for me. So, you are Princie's Mom? I know you then! That is awesome! Oh my soul...I'd love to meet the babies. Did you clip Princie down? How did your puppy end up doing? Are your girls still doing Junior Showmanship? And how are your Airdales?

I'd love to hear more about the lost apricot line!


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## Paragon

Hello Cherie,

I am lucky with the kids! They are still interested, show, and participate in Show Grooming, line, by line, topknot, and everyday care. Sometimes I want to pinch myself.... Some of them are actually getting good, and will be getting scissors soon.

I took Princie down after the Nationals #10. Hubby wanted him to look like a "real" dog. Once he saw him without his coat he wanted it back! Men! He now has about 7-8" back.

Liza-Jane is almost 2, next week is her birthday. She will be the one having Princie's pups. Lots of angles, good testing etc. She is from Karina, and goes back on Florence's and Leslie's lines.

Airedales are doing good. I have one spunky pup from our last litter showing promise in the field. Her brother was over for show grooming on the weekend. He is huge, and gorgeous! He weighs 44 pounds, and 23". He is as big as his mom, and he is just coming up 6 months. I can't wait to see him in the ring!

You will have to come by! Are you coming out to the Norolk Show?

Paragon


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## zyrcona

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Is it on the vertical pedigrees of each dog?


It's on the top of the normal pedigree for the dog, next to the 10-gen COI. Either it's a recent addition or I only recently started noticing it. I've yet to find a dog alive today with 0% Wycliffe, although it would be interesting if there is one. As a general rule, the lower the better, much the same as COI, although dogs with high Wycliffe could still potentially have rare haplotypes that the test Yaddaluvpoodles has linked to before could test for.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Paragon said:


> Hello Cherie,
> 
> I am lucky with the kids! They are still interested, show, and participate in Show Grooming, line, by line, topknot, and everyday care. Sometimes I want to pinch myself.... Some of them are actually getting good, and will be getting scissors soon.
> 
> I took Princie down after the Nationals #10. Hubby wanted him to look like a "real" dog. Once he saw him without his coat he wanted it back! Men! He now has about 7-8" back.
> 
> Liza-Jane is almost 2, next week is her birthday. She will be the one having Princie's pups. Lots of angles, good testing etc. She is from Karina, and goes back on Florence's and Leslie's lines.
> 
> Airedales are doing good. I have one spunky pup from our last litter showing promise in the field. Her brother was over for show grooming on the weekend. He is huge, and gorgeous! He weighs 44 pounds, and 23". He is as big as his mom, and he is just coming up 6 months. I can't wait to see him in the ring!
> 
> You will have to come by! Are you coming out to the Norolk Show?
> 
> Paragon


When is the Norfolk show? Our new puppy is coming on the 5th, so don't want to dragging germs in until she is immunized.

How far are you from Guelph? I would so love to see your puppies.


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## outwest

I am firmly in the low COI camp, too. I believe it produces more vigorous, healthier dogs and contributes to balanced temperaments. I know that is saying it does a lot, but I believe it does. 

Having breeders striving for low COI also allows those people who are breeding mostly for conformation to get an infusion of vigor from those dogs if they choose to. It is a win-win situation and I think we need both to keep the poodle healthy, beautiful and strong. 

Arreau, I think it is very exciting, too.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I agree Outwest! And thank you for being excited too!


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## outwest

I just checked poodle health registry for Bonnie because the last time I checked, there was no Wycliffe calculated. It was there this time. Here is Bonnie's
CallName = Bonnie
COI = 4.4%[10G,4F,501U,192C] : %Wycliffe= 28.27%

I am very happy with that Wycliffe as Bonnie is from black parents from heavily inbred black conformation show lines back there, but her breeder has been outcrossing like mad, searching for dogs without any Wycliffe (latvian dog) or very little (belgium dogs) or doing something drastic (minis one generation). Still, I hesitated when I clicked the link to Bonnie. LOL (I was afraid of what I would see). The other thing her breeder has been talking about is those haplotypes. Apparently Bonnie has close relatives that do NOT have haplotype 1 and are fully heterozygous. This is why she has mentioned that I should do that study, but my understanding is the study no longer has funding? 

I think it is only good for poodles what you are doing Arreau. Your girl coming from afar is awesome looking, too! Her sister is gorgeous. How excited you must be for the future! We need this in poodles or ALL colors. 

If what you are saying is true and red poodles have no or little Wycliffe, couldnt red poodles be used to improve all the colors as far as Wycliffe goes?


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## faerie

well i can't wait to see some quincy babies.


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## outwest

I want to see them, too.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Outwest...I am sure if we go back far enough, the reds and apricots will have lots of Wycliffe influence too, but back considerably further, which ought to help somewhat.

When I got into this I was looking ten to fifteen years down the road. Now, having Trillium so involved and being able to add to the line the way I have, we are looking at 6 to 10 years down the road. Bringing in Quincy and Journey is super important to what we are hoping to achieve in time, and it is going to take time. But I am thrilled with how things have begun to fall into place.


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## Paragon

Hello Outwest,

I wish you were closer! Your Bonnie sounds like she has alot to offer! How did your breeder get the Mini in there and still get registered a Standard? The unique Haplotypes are something we need to preserve. I hope the funding will come through to continue the study. My boy likely has a different type because of his pedigree. I would like to know for sure.

Cherie,

Was Thinker included in the study? You are doing great things, bringing in new blood! I can't wait to see the babies. Are they started, or are you waiting still like us....... We have been waiting for over 2 years..... Should be started soon though.

Norfolk Show is in Simcoe near us, Easter weekend (April 6-8).

Paragon


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## Paragon

Cherie,

I am sending you a PM

Paragon


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Paragon said:


> Hello Outwest,
> 
> I wish you were closer! Your Bonnie sounds like she has alot to offer! How did your breeder get the Mini in there and still get registered a Standard? The unique Haplotypes are something we need to preserve. I hope the funding will come through to continue the study. My boy likely has a different type because of his pedigree. I would like to know for sure.
> 
> Cherie,
> 
> Was Thinker included in the study? You are doing great things, bringing in new blood! I can't wait to see the babies. Are they started, or are you waiting still like us....... We have been waiting for over 2 years..... Should be started soon though.
> 
> Norfolk Show is in Simcoe near us, Easter weekend (April 6-8).
> 
> 
> I won't be able to make the show. We are heading over to Deb's to clip twelve babies faces, feet and tails.
> 
> Thank you for your kind words! We have a plan, and have begun to put it into action now and are very excited about the future.
> 
> We have puppies right now, and are very pleased with them. Our big turning point is having our own pups the quality of Cayenne and breeding them to the Quincy's we bring in. That is when I get REALLY excited!
> 
> You are blessed that your kids have a genuine interest in the dogs and participate in things along with you.


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## A'n'A Mom

Hi Outwest,

Bonnie's COI and Wycliffe numbers look very good. But I must give you a caution... 

Look at Bonnie's listing
COI = 4.4%[10G,4F,501U,192C] : %Wycliffe= 28.27%

The numbers in those brackets indicate that the COI calculation was based on 10 generations....but only 4 of the generations were FULL generations. That means that the parents of some dogs in the 4th generation are missing/unknown. That could be as few a 1 dog in the 5th generation...or all of them! If you select additional generations to display (Step 2 on the main PHRDB page), you'll see that there are huge holes of the known dogs in Bonnie's pedigree (if she's the Bonnie I think she is <g>). While it's probably unlikely there is much Wycliffe back in those minis, there very likely may be some...as there were more intervariety breedings historically that I had suspected. And you'd be shocked to find how many Wycliffe dogs...or Wycliffe descendants...were exported to Europe. 

OW, I don't mean to rain on your parade, but it's just a caution to everyone. The COI numbers, based on only 4 complete generations, may or may not be reliable. Ditto the Wycliffe estimate.

Nancy

p.s. If any of you have additional pedigree info to fill holes in the PHRDB, please let us know!!!


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## outwest

Thanks, Nancy. The latvian dog has an incomplete pedigree, which is the one you are seeing. He has 7 generations known, not 4, but the last few don't have birthdays. He is three generations back from Bonnie, so there isn't really a reason for not having the Wycliffe calculated to 10. Maybe I should email them.  

This is the COI on poodle pedigree
10-generation COI 3.66% 
12-generation COI 4.39% 
Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

Tiara Karisma 1.88% 
AM CH Kertellas Blatant Lie At Lemerle 0.44% 
AM CH Haus Brau Executive Of Acadia TP 0.25% 
AM CH Tiara Divinity 0.25% 
AM CH Maefare Barclay TP 0.23% 

The breeder went to a lot of trouble to use that Latvian dog. He had to have three generations born in Canada registered there before bringing Bonnie's mother to the US and being able to AKC register her here in AKC. It isn't something for the faint of heart as it was a lot of money and trouble to do. The breeder was working with a breeder in Canada to get it done. She brought over two of the dogs finally to register AKC. 

As far as minis: In the US a poodle is a poodle. That is how they are registered. The variety is chosen when registering. Anything over 15 inches is a standard. A 17 inch mini can be registered as a standard. The puppies that first generation were registered standards this line was all US- (they were 18-21 inches that generation). The three generations past that were standard to standard. Technically a 17 inch poodle could be shown in the standard class, but no one does it. 

Go to the breeders website and you can read about her reasonings for doing that the one generation. It all has to do with Dr. Anderson and the diversity project. She has taken an enormous amount of scut for doing it, but she's tough and her current standard breedings are fullsized. She also developed a moyen line with a russian moyen import, but they are beiing bred separately the last several generations. standard to standard (getting bigger) and moyen to moyen. Her Ida was #2 standard in UKC this year and she's had #1 standard 3 times in the last few years. They're nice looking dogs doing very well in preformance activities in particular (very athletic dogs).

I wonder if I could figure the Wycliffe going back further. Hmmm....

I feel like I have the benefit of all that with my girl, who is several generations past the outcrossing now.  This is why we would like to see if she has the genetics her relatives do.


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## outwest

It just occured to me why it was only 4 generations there: Latvian dogs are not recognized by the AKC (goodness knows why- snooty perhaps?), so anything past him in his line the AKC will not use (he is Bonnies fourth generation). He is why they had to remain in Canada (where he was recognized as poodle) for three generations before the AKC would recognize the line as Canadian and agree to register its descendants.

This is about Arreau's dogs, not mine.  
So sorry, Arreau for yapping! I thought it was pertinent to the discussion when I wrote it, but it is about your lovely dogs.

Paragon, who is that in your avatar? He/she is most lovely.


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## CharismaticMillie

Outwest, Maefare Barclay, a top producing brown who was imported and owned by Peckerwood kennels is one of the top contributors to Bonnie's COI. it is also *the* top contributor to my Millie's COI! Genetic information for Peckerwood's Thoroughly Modern Millie CGC

From what I hear, Barclay was a wonderful bitch. How fun that our girls both have her strongly in their roots! 

Back to topic, sorry for the commercial break!

Eta: and Has Brau! Our girls have even more in common!


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## Keithsomething

Zec was a very influential dog, maybe one of the most influential of his time! Hes the top contributer in my girls pedigree as well  heavens COI. Poodle pedigree


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## outwest

Hey, Keith, I just checked your girls pedigree. Our girls share a whole LOTTA ancestors. In fact, they have a couple lines exactly the same. I didn't realize Heaven carried so much of my breeders dogs back there (pre-shakeup). 

CM, Yes, Bonnie has some strong brown dogs. She has a good dose of Cadbury's, which I noticed Millie does, too (also pre-shakeup). 

With all three of our dogs the divergence came in the fourth generation. If we looked at all three side by side you can see the differences just since that time. It makes you realize how quickly humans can change things, doesn't it?


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## Keithsomething

I think most of Heavens Tiara influence comes in on Caddie :] but I like her pedigree, for having some of the BIGGEST names in the poodle world behind her her COI is still low but shes still typey...one thing that concerns me with striving for the LOWEST COI is that we may lose type...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Hey Outwest...no problem. I am kind of holding my breath with every thread now, just waiting for the train wreck, particularly when I see specific people have posted on any of my threads...


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## Paragon

Outwest,

Thanks for the info on your girl. It is constructive information, as we are discussing low COI's. 

I didn't realize you could register by size in the US! I am not so sure I would do what your breeder did, but I comprehend what she is trying to do.

I think you can preserve type while maintaining diversity. I am not thinking only of dogs, but also of farm animals, which is my backround. You may not get perfect consistancy, as the linebreeding, but you also don't get the crash. Too much linebreeding, leads to heath issues + infertility. I know which one I prefer...

If you breed like to like, complementarily, you can preserve the phenotype you desire. Nothing is perfect, it is nature, and we aren't GOD.

My avitar is CH Bibelot Tolka High Spirits CGN St. John's Ambulance Therapy Dog from Susan Fraser and Deb Drake. I am lucky to have him. He has alot to offer. We were able to show and finish him ourselves, and got a Group 3 on him in limited showing (my grooming, and my husband handling, my daughter finished him with a major). Arreau had his dad Thinker. He will be having pups with our girl Liza-Jane this year.

I wish I could see those little faces Arreau! I love when you go from fuzzy to clean shaven. You get to get an idea of what is there to come! The colour too.....

Paragon


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Thank you Paragon! I discovered we are clipping puppies the weekend after this! I wish I could come to the show, but we are trying to get a rec room reno completed before Journey arrives next Thursday. I know my mind won't be on anything but her when she is here, so Bruce better take advantage of me while I am not in puppy mode!

Are you on FB? We have a page there for the Spoos, under Arreau red Standard Poodles. We post gazillions of photos and videos and will be posting lots of the babes after their haircuts. They seem to go from stuffed toys to Poodles in minutes once you clip those little faces.

I totally agree with you by the way. Give me diversity any day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am terrified for the future of these heavily line-bred/inbred dogs. Seems people do not believe me when I tell them- because of PHR, I have been able to look at the dogs I grew up with, from wayyyyyyyy back, when COI was a non issue and inbreeding was the norm and we were at the beginning of the Wycliffe influence. The dogs with low COI's lived to be thirteen to sixteen. The high COI's lived to be nine or ten. So apparently, the consensus on the Canine Diversity Project is correct.


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## Paragon

Arreau,

I have watched for years to what they have done in the Dairy industry. It is what it is now. There should be no fantasies of happy cows anymore....

We used to have a diversity of breeds and bloodlines. Most farms had their own bull, which they got from a farm from away. There were different breeds of cattle used, suited to the area, and different breeds were kept on each farm.

There is a bit of this left, mostly small scale organic farms. The rest is not! AI is used almost exclusively. The breed of choice is Holstein, which has changed to a huge machine, even from 25 years ago! There are only a few bulls used on almost all of the cows, basically they are sisters!

The productivitivity, and feed conversion is unreal, even compared to a few generations ago! They are all consistant, and produce. The downside of this, is that instead of being productive for 24-26 years, cows are now only good for 7-8 years before they break down. They need alot more antibiotics to get them there, and calving can be an issue.

Different animal, I know, but do we want this to happen to our Poodles? This is what linebreeding does over time.

Paragon


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Rayah, another member here, is also a farm girl. She and I talk a lot, with her sharing their experiences of what has transpired on the farm and putting some of that in practical terms for dog breeding. I respect this very much! If people do not give their heads a shake, and soon, this breed and many others are going to be in dire trouble in a short period of time.

All of my breeding girls to this point come from the same two parents. One of those parents has Highland's Red Royal Regal behind him. This dog is heavily in the red lines, and now I need to get away from him. Hence Quincy and Journey. Journey has Farley's D I am Marcello behind her, another dog who has heavily influenced the reds. So, now my mission is to find a male and another female who have neither of these dogs behind them. If I have to lose colour for a generation or two too accomplish what I am trying to do, so be it. We can work to get that back easily enough. But something has got to be done.


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## Keithsomething

Paragon, cows ARE a different animal...but I would absolutely HATE to see something like that happen in dogs of any breed. I am a huge advocate for diversity in the breed, but my concern is losing type...I know that would be far off in the future...but its still worries me.

What I plan on doing is a cross between line breeding and out crossing, one generation moves out to a new line then you bring that generation back into your current line and so on. I'd be bringing in diversity but also keeping a distinct look with the dogs that most breeders that exclusively outcross just can't obtain. Consistency isn't always a bad thing as long as health is a consideration and any extreme problems are nipped in the bud.

My plans are ALL just hypothetical as of yet, but its my plan until I see someone doing something different and it achieves the goals that I want to be achieving in the next few years.


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## outwest

That's what I was talking about with the breeder. When is it okay to go back and line breed for a generation? I have a test breeding pending calculation.


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## outwest

Paragon said:


> Outwest,
> I didn't realize you could register by size in the US! I am not so sure I would do what your breeder did, but I comprehend what she is trying to do.Paragon


No, not many people would do it, but it was done. I would think people would be interested in it and not as negative as they are. I think we need all kinds of trials. It can only be good for poodles to have different people trying different things. Then discussing the results with open minds. It might help, it might not, but you won't know unless someone tries it. Kind of like breeding the blue to the red.


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## Keithsomething

Outwest, from what I've observed following several breeders pedigrees and what they say. You take Bonnie, breed her to a boy unrelated to her keep a bitch from that, then take said bitch and breed to maybe one of Bonnies relatives either a brother to bonnie if you want it that close or an uncle or a great uncle and then keep a bitch out of that and breed her to another completely unrelated dog. 

Doing this you should cement a specific look as well as bring in a diversity that might have been missing...

Again this isn't something I've implemented but I plan on it, for ME Heaven already is the outcross...so one of the studs I want to breed her to is an uncle on her sires side (the side I'd like to focus more heavily on) I'm hoping that I bring more type in and cement certain qualities I see in those lines with my own...but this is all hypothetical haha

Linebreeding always makes people uncomfortable, but I feel if you have a sufficient knowledge of what is lurking behind the dogs why not try it?


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## CharismaticMillie

I am a bit hesitant about linebreeding, too, I have to admit. I can't tell you how many people have told me I should get another partially related bitch from said kennel and "bring her back" to Tiger because "he's so pretty". He _is_ gorgeous, but at this point I'm not sure that I'd be comfortable linebreeding, myself. I'd rather contribute diversity to the gene pool. That said, I know little to nothing about finding truly complementary matches so my mentors will have to help me when and if the time comes.


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## Keithsomething

CharismaticMillie said:


> I am a bit hesitant about linebreeding, too, I have to admit. I can't tell you how many people have told me I should get another partially related bitch from said kennel and "bring her back" to Tiger because "he's so pretty". He _is_ gorgeous, but at this point I'm not sure that I'd be comfortable linebreeding, myself. I'd rather contribute diversity to the gene pool. That said, I know little to nothing about finding truly complementary matches so my mentors will have to help me when and if the time comes.


I think thats a great point CM!! Tiger is gorgeous and the diversity he brings to poodles (white in particular!!!) is astounding! And linebreeding does seem pretty terrifying when you first start thinking about it, learn his line and what it is you want to improve and what you KNOW is behind him :]]

What I've been told is basically you should build on a bitch. So maybe buying a completely unrelated bitch and breeding her to him would be a good option (I know several SPECTACULAR white breeders here in Ohio and in Pennsylvania, you'll get to see the Unique dogs at PCA...be prepared to drool ;D)


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

CharismaticMillie said:


> Outwest, Maefare Barclay, a top producing brown who was imported and owned by Peckerwood kennels
> 
> From what I hear, Barclay was a wonderful bitch. How fun that our girls both have her strongly in their roots!


Dear ChocolateMillie;

If you are speaking of same Maefare Barclay I am thinking of he is a male dog. He was/is behind all of my browns and was of great temperament too!


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

Keithsomething said:


> Outwest, from what I've observed following several breeders pedigrees and what they say. You take Bonnie, breed her to a boy unrelated to her keep a bitch from that, then take said bitch and breed to maybe one of Bonnies relatives either a brother to bonnie if you want it that close or an uncle or a great uncle and then keep a bitch out of that and breed her to another completely unrelated dog.
> 
> Doing this you should cement a specific look as well as bring in a diversity that might have been missing...


Dear Keithsomething;

The best way, in my opinion, to have diversity is *not* to breed back to the line. No matter what you call this it is inbreeding. No offense meant!

Go with a dog or bitch that matches or slightly improves your bitch or dog. You want to use Phenotype, which is based on how something looks and match it to another dog/bitch that is close looking to what you want to produce. 
You can still set "*type*" this way; it just takes a *bit longer* and will produce a healthier poodle. 

_An organism’s genotype is the set of genes that it carries. An organism’s phenotype is all of its observable characteristics—which are influenced both by its genotype and by the environment.
_
Sorry Arreau to go off topic.

Off my soapbox.


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## CharismaticMillie

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> Dear ChocolateMillie;
> 
> If you are speaking of same Maefare Barclay I am thinking of he is a male dog. He was/is behind all of my browns and was of great temperament too!


Oh yes, sorry about that, I misspoke. I even double checked before posting but still got it wrong! You're right, he was a dog! Tom has had such great things to say about him.


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## Keithsomething

I'm not offended at all by your post Rayah, I love when someone gives there opinion eloquently and without dredging up useless facts about things they don't understand! ^_^

What about consistencey though? Of course there are gorgeous dogs out of lines that are continually outcrossed...but what sort of constistency is there in the litters? Would that specific line ever be able to establish a specific look?

There are lines that when you see them in the ring you just know where they originated and I love that, maybe it's wrong but that is something I want to strive for as a breeder.


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## Ladyscarletthawk

Paragon said:


> Outwest,
> 
> 
> If you breed like to like, complementarily, you can preserve the phenotype you desire. Nothing is perfect, it is nature, and we aren't GOD.
> 
> 
> Paragon


I read this in Born to Win by Patricia Craige, judge, Owner Handler, and VERY succesful Elk hound breeder under the Vin-Melca prefix. Very beautiful dogs, and altho she did some line breeding she would always say breed like to like. She has a number of breeds including poodles in her book and highly rec it .


----------



## Paragon

Ladyscarletthawk,

Exactly! This is what we used to do with everything. There were variations in the breeds, but you see that now as well. Compare the working line poodles to the top show lines, different style....

We all have to decide what is most important in our breeding program. The are many right ways out there. It is a good thing. That way, we can borrow what we need to compliment our plans.

Hopefully, we are doing this for the good of the breed. Never, to produce a whak of pups, each and every time we plan a breeding.

Paragon


----------



## outwest

CM and Keith:
Why don't you have your poodles on Poodle Health Registry? I understand that Millie is a pet, but Keith you really have to put her on there.  Afraid of the Wycliffe? It takes a couple weeks for them to calculate it, but I think it is really important. As far as Bonnie's Wycliffe, I believe it to be accurate after checking into the four generation thing. It was because of the Russian (Latvian) dog. He had no Wycliffe and neither did the Belgium dog and neither did the minis (exactly why they were all chosen). So, the Wycliffe calculation wouldn't change even if there was a full line there. 

Here is the link to get them on there. It is easy to do. I think all poodle people have an obligation to get their dogs on there. No excuses make sense to me:
PHR Start Here!


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## Keithsomething

I'm not afraid of the Wycliffe Outwest, I paid for the poodle pedigree database because I find the PHR a flawed website at times that BYB's tend to use as a witch hunt :3
So Heaven may NEVER be put on PHR, she will have all her testing done and they will be posted on OFA but I won't ever have her registered for that site her pedigree is already on the database that PHR uses for its pedigrees ;D (now maybe you should ask her co-owner why she isn't on there)

Heavens Wycliffe is around 40% 

(Also since it was broached, I find it deplorable that people around the world flocked to the Wycliffe kennel but as soon as that woman passed away EVERY issue known in the breed was blamed on her...just terrible!)

ETA:
Scroll to the bottom of the page you're more than welcome to order a copy for yourself ;]
PCA Support

ETA...again:
The database I'm referring to is where PHR lifted the ability to calculate the level of Wycliffe


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

outwest said:


> CM and Keith:
> It was because of the Russian (Latvian) dog. He had no Wycliffe and neither did the Belgium dog and neither did the minis (exactly why they were all chosen). So, the Wycliffe calculation wouldn't change even if there was a full line there.
> [/url]


If a poodle is missing any ancestry during the time of the genetic bottleneck, it should always be considered that additional Wycliffe is possible, although it may sound improbable. I have seen Wycliffe turn up in some really unexpected places. Many of us have looked very hard to find poodles with limited Wycliffe, coming across pedigrees which weren't complete, only to later find that yes, there is indeed Wycliffe there. The Wycliffe lines have been integrated globally. I have also seen mini poodles bred to standards, back to mini's again....


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## CharismaticMillie

Outwest, 

Tiger and Millie are _both_ on poodle health registry. . 

Millie : http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/...&stype=anywhere&sorder=name&submit=Search+Now

Tiger: http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/...&stype=anywhere&sorder=name&submit=Search+Now


----------



## Yaddaluvpoodles

Keithsomething said:


> (Also since it was broached, I find it deplorable that people around the world flocked to the Wycliffe kennel but as soon as that woman passed away EVERY issue known in the breed was blamed on her...just terrible!)
> 
> 
> It's really easy for breeders to point fingers for some reason. There is so much ego in breeding. When things go right, breeders lay claim to it "I just knew if I used Studly Do Right and Precious Priss together that I could get that marvelous head.. and I did". I feel super strongly that our poodles would be way better off with a whole lot more humility on the part of the breeder (I've never yet seen a breeder create a poodle head, although I've known a whole lot who allowed Studly Do Right to have access to Precious Priss at the right time.. and the results were a great litter with gorgeous heads), but when things go wrong.. it's always someone else's fault.
> 
> *
> One of the other things we tend to do is condemn everyone who doesn't do as we are doing.* That implications of this statement are huge. Social pressure to breed in a set manner is huge. Take a look at the messages on this group. If someone doesn't test for hips (a non-genetic test, possibly subjective interpretation, technique used while taking the test can make a difference in the results, dogs who are not dysplastic when they xrays are done can later go on to develop dysplasia) on PF.. those breeders are considered.. scum (or something like that.. not too creative with my word choices today <VBG>) However, if someone doesn't test for SA (a non-genetic test, technique used while taking the test can make a difference in the results, dogs who are do nto have SA when the test is done can later go on to develop SA)... there is understanding and support from many of the members (test is painful, traumatic, per postings here). So we condemn people who don't xray hips, but we tolerate and in some cases, support and encourage people who don't do skin biopsies.
> 
> Part of what happened with the Wycliffe bottleneck is.. breeders saw poodles they really liked, they thought they were the best, they did the best they could be breeding to them. I believe that there was also some social pressure as well. Breeder's wanted to be able to smile proudly at the offspring they had produced. But when things blew up healthwise a few generations later (it happened because of a genetic bottleneck. The bottleneck just happened to be centered around the Wycliffe lines.. but any genetic bottleneck has the potential for the same disasterous results). When we are looking at Wycliffe percentages.. it's not targeting Wycliffe poodles as being "bad", it's merely acknowledging the tremendous amount of genetic contribution that has been made from the Wycliffe lines.
> 
> So, despite the gorgeous Wycliffe poodles and their winning ways, when so many other breeders decided that they just had to have a bit of Wycliffe..
> and went to far, things blew up health wise. Because of the ego of most breeder's, it's much easier to point a finger at Wycliffe. The problem wasn't Jean Lyle, Wycliffe, or the Wycliffe lines. it is what all of the other breeders did with the Wycliffe genetics. As for the health issues that people like to credit Wycliffe for.. well.. most of those were in existance long before Wycliffe existed. The damage came when the Wycliffe poodles were so intensively line/inbreed and then the genes were distributed throughout the breed. When choosing to breed to Wycliffe poodles, other poodles were not bred to. Many of those genetics which our breed needs to help maintain it's genetic flexibility and health were lost.
> 
> There are quite a few breeders out there who use "science" as one of their breeding tools, who are now considering Wycliffe Influence to be a more important number to take into consideration when breeding then a COI. Really. I've mentioned a bit about MHC.... it's my understanding that 90% of poodles who have a Wycliffe Influence of 40% or greater are homozygous for DLA (MHC) type 1. Keeping in mind that the Wycliffe influence for the average standard is above 40% and that will continue to change, increase as we breed those poodles together.. from a population genetics standpoint, things are nightmarishly ugly for the long term future of our standards.
> 
> Another issue at hand is that.. current research is showing that Addison's is spread throughout all of the lines of standard poodles, with the exception of a handful of "matrilines". Those matrilines without AD, have SA. That means that breeder's are going to have a tough time avoiding producing either of these issues.. and it's going to bet worse, not better unless we can develop better ways of identifying them. A bit of good/bad news is that research is also indicating that while Addison's and SA are 50% genetic, the other 50% is environmental. So.. when an AD or SA offspring appears..who's responsible? Breeder or owner? Turns out they both may be equally as responsible. As I own both an AD poodle and an SA poodle.. let me tell you how that makes me feel! The info regarding AD/SA genetics/environment that I have shared here I anticipate will be made shared in published studies within the next couple of years.
> 
> Uhoh.. I really got side tracked again. I put a bit of time into it, so hate to delete the whole thing.. so.. here it is.


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## Keithsomething

Yadda I always love your posts!! <3

No such thing as a side track when its organic ^_^

The finger pointing is what annoys me the most about breeders, they want to blame specific dogs, and specific lines of contributing ALL these health issues when from everything I'm reading MOST of the diseases affecting our breed are polygenetic (according to the theories) so how can ONE dog be the cause of so many aliments...in say the reds >.>

I think time will tell how detrimental the bottleneck truly was/is there are breeds that seem to be doing just fine though they were founded on just on 2 dogs so maybe evolution will catch up to human meddling and something awesome will happen ^_^


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## Paragon

Hello Kiethsomething ,

Thanks for the post about the American Poodle Club. When I scrolled down, they have a special for VwB and NE till May 1st. I know someone that needs this done for her boy, and the discount would be a bonus for her! I have the disk, and it is good. For most the PHR should do the trick for reference.

All we can do as breeders, is try our best with the knowledge we have. It would be foolish to breed known carriers, but alot of the other stuff becomes a calculated risk. I like to sleep at night.....

Paragon


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## CharismaticMillie

Keith - I think that Heaven will end up on Poodle Health Registry whether you like it or not once you do her testing!  

Outwest - as far as I understand, the form that you linked in above post is for registering a dog's diagnosed health issue with PHR. Nancy (I think that's who) automatically adds dogs to the database as they become known to her.  I recall she said she updates the database very frequently with anything new showing up in the studbooks. Also, if a dog has testing registered with OFA, that's a pretty foolproof way they'll make it to PHR.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Keithsomething said:


> I'm not afraid of the Wycliffe Outwest, I paid for the poodle pedigree database because I find the PHR a flawed website at times that BYB's tend to use as a witch hunt :3
> So Heaven may NEVER be put on PHR, she will have all her testing done and they will be posted on OFA but I won't ever have her registered for that site her pedigree is already on the database that PHR uses for its pedigrees ;D (now maybe you should ask her co-owner why she isn't on there)
> 
> Heavens Wycliffe is around 40%
> 
> (Also since it was broached, I find it deplorable that people around the world flocked to the Wycliffe kennel but as soon as that woman passed away EVERY issue known in the breed was blamed on her...just terrible!)
> 
> ETA:
> Scroll to the bottom of the page you're more than welcome to order a copy for yourself ;]
> PCA Support
> 
> ETA...again:
> The database I'm referring to is where PHR lifted the ability to calculate the level of Wycliffe


Ummm...excuse me? "Ask her co-owner" ? To the best of my knowledge, she will not make it to PHR unless she has testing done or something else to tweak their attention. I have NEVER added a dog's pedigree to PHR. I do not even know how. I post my dogs on poodlepedigree, and they magically make their way to PHR after their testing has been posted on OFA or their pedigree has been on Poodle Pedigree for a while, or when a litter has been registered with the CKC. I am not even certain that you, as an individual CAN post a pedigree there. If you know how to, let me know...


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## A'n'A Mom

Yo Keithsomething,



Keithsomething said:


> ETA...again:
> The database I'm referring to is where PHR lifted the ability to calculate the level of Wycliffe


Lifted? Lifted!! Makes it sound like you think the PHRDB stole something from the SPD. Tsk, tsk. Not nice. 

This is from the FAQ on the PHRDB website....

"*Where does the pedigree data come from?*
The Standard Poodle pedigree information is a subset of data from the Standard Poodle Database. (The SPD is a standalone Windows database that is available from the PCA Foundation for a $50 donation for poodle health research. A new version is available every year at the national specialty.)

The Miniature and Toy Database was provided by Eva Mitchell. Her toy/mini database is available online here. It began with data entered by her (the first 40,000 dogs) and many others into the Poodle Pedigree Database. At this point we do not have health information included in the Mini/Toy database. But it is available here.

The Poodle Health Registry is grateful for the use of these pedigree databases. "

The databases and the capabilities are used with permission and in conjunction with each other. Lynn Brucker, who owns and developed the SPD, is the PHRDB webmaster and performs those calculations and posts them herself. Nothing was lifted or taken without permission.

Nancy
PHR and SPD volunteer


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## NOLA Standards

Dogs are indeed added to the database as they become known.

Nancy was very helpful incorrecting Lombardi's information (he was entered BEFORE he was even AKC registered!). 

Irma is still listed as blue though she is black, and yes, that is a little confusing as she is "Queen of the Blues/Reine du Blues" - but that'd be about Irma Lee <Thomas> for whom she is named!

From first hand experience, they enter the information they have, and are willing to verify and correct when inaccuracies are noted.

Thanks PHR Volunteers!


Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## zyrcona

Keithsomething said:


> (Also since it was broached, I find it deplorable that people around the world flocked to the Wycliffe kennel but as soon as that woman passed away EVERY issue known in the breed was blamed on her...just terrible!)


What's done is done, and has long passed the point of no return. It cannot be undone. Finding someone to blame for it is irrelevant and not constructive as a way forward. People of that era did not have access to information that people today have, and they didn't know any better. The only thing that can be done is to learn from it and try to ensure it doesn't happen again.

A few centuries ago, humans existed in highly inbred pockets, mostly constrained within villages with little genetic flow due to the transportation limitations of the time. The recent vast improvements in human health and lifespan is certainly in a large part a result of medicine and sanitation, but I suspect the COI lowering of what was in effect widespread outcrossing of inbred populations brought on by improved mobility may have had some effect.

I think the implications are important and it's something breeders should know about, but I don't think it's necessarily going to kill the breed. I have faith that genetics scientists will some time soon find the causes of the diseases with genetic components we don't yet know, and that genetic engineering will eventually be able to do something to put right mistakes people have made. All species bottleneck; it's part of evolution in that selection pressure reduces a population and the increase in homozygosity forces mutation and the revelation of recessives that push forward adaptation. Species that adapt recover and diversify over a long recovery period; what makes a species go extinct is failure to adapt and the result of a continuous bottleneck that gets narrower and narrower with no recourse to breeding out once the bottleneck has been relieved. By excessively breeding the dogs closest to the ideal conformation and spaying/neutering all the rest, we are forcing a continuous bottleneck on dogs. No matter how they adapt, it's never going to be good enough as only the prettiest ones get selected and the rest don't get used. They're crisis-adapting towards an asymptote and getting less and less diverse with every generation.

The alternative is to pair up dogs with conformational strengths and weaknesses that hopefully complement each other (or relax the interpretation of the written standard somewhat) and make sure a bit of everything gets used (and perhaps more of the things that are underrepresented, such as the uncommon haplotypes Yaddaluvpoodles mentions). The curve towards the ideal conformation will be less steep and the conformation of dogs in general will be less uniform, but the diversity will be better preserved. They need that evolutionary recovery period so they can diversify.


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## Keithsomething

A'n'A I wasn't meaning that you stole or did anything illicit with the PHR I mentioned that PHR uses the pedigree database, I apologize if that's what was how my post was taken.

And yes Cherie I said ask her co-owner, when I have questions lodged at me it's only reasonable that the questions are split between us...no?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Well, I doubt the person who asked you realized she is co-owned, so would not have thought about it. And if I am correct in my assumption, I have no more control over her info being added to PHR than you do.


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## A'n'A Mom

KeithS....

Tongue was planted firmly in cheek...but wanted to make sure others didn't misunderstand and take you literally.

Actually, there are two parts to the Poodle Health Registry....and 2 websites. One lists disease information and used to list health issues on individual dogs as they were registered. That was done before PHR had an online database and we're debating about whether to discontinue it, partially because of the abuse/misuse you describe. The second website is the PHRDB.

Only the owner of the dog can register a health issue with the PHR. It must be medically verified so we know it's a valid medical diagnosis. It is not necessary that a co-owner (usually the breeder) sign-off or approve the registration. However, if the health status should change, the diagnosis be proven incorrect or the owner change their mind, PHR will remove any health data upon request from the original registrant. The pedigree itself is a matter of public record and will not be removed. 

And Keith, in my opinion, the only ones who get hurt by not making affected status known is the Poodles. The more data there is in the database, the more 'invisible' individual dogs become and the more it has the utility for which it was designed. Knowledge of the health status of siblings of breeding dogs and of siblings of parents of breeding dogs is essential per Dr. Jerold Bell, the geneticist from Tufts.

Nancy


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## Paragon

This is getting to be a very interseting thread!

Good discussion, it is good that we are keeping it civil....

Paragon


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## outwest

I added Bonnie to it. Let me see how I did it (it's been a while), but I don't remember it being a big deal. 

edit: 
"Can I add a Dog to the database?
If you want to add health information you can register your dog here. If you just want to add pedigree information you can request the addition of a dog here. Your dog will not be automatically added, but after verification should be included in the next update. "

Here is the correct link to add a dog. It's free.
Add Dog


Keith, I don't know what you're talking about with co-owner? You mean Heavens coowner or Bonnies or what? Is Arreau Heavens coowner? I wouldn't have any way of knowing that. 

The PHR is a great source for the pedigrees. I like how it's all color coded and such.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

My reply in blue in the message:



Paragon said:


> Hello Kiethsomething ,
> 
> Thanks for the post about the American Poodle Club. When I scrolled down, they have a special for VwB and NE till May 1st. That's great information and makes the cost of testing a bit less of an obstacle for those interested.I know someone that needs this done for her boy, and the discount would be a bonus for her! I have the disk, and it is good. For most the PHR should do the trick for reference.
> 
> All we can do as breeders, is try our best with the knowledge we have.Agree whole heartedly. It would be foolish to breed known carriers, but alot of the other stuff becomes a calculated risk.Ummm the "known carriers" part is where things get a bit dicey. If we are talking about something where there is a genetic test with a known mode of inheritance, well that makes it a piece of cake. But if we are talking about the more insidious nasties.. Addison's, Sebaceous Adenitis, Hip Dysplasia, there simply is no getting around breeding carriers (keeping in mind that these are polygenic disorders). For the sake of this discussion, I'm going to take the liberty of defining a carrier as a poodle who is affected with a BN (BIG NASTY!) health issue. Many times "carriers" are bred inadvertently, they are bred while young and express a health issue later in life.. leaving behind intact reproducing offspring. Now if that "carrier" had expressed after the first litter, he/she could have been removed from breeding.. and that's what most people would expect to see happen. However, if a carrier expresses in their golden years.. most people tend to look the other way. Things get even more complicated when trying to define "carriers" based on affected offspring. In the case of polygenic disorders, especially those having environmental components to them, it's like a great big "who-dun-it" trying to figure out where the BN genes came from.. did they really come from both parents, is there one parent along with environment responsible? Anyhow... identifying carriers.. is tough! I like to sleep at night.....
> 
> Paragon


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## outwest

I corrected the link to add a dog to the database (not to register a health problem). I cross posted with yadda. 

Here it is:
Add Dog

I added mine for the extra calculations they do, which is nice.


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## Keithsomething

A'n'A Mom said:


> KeithS....
> 
> Tongue was planted firmly in cheek...but wanted to make sure others didn't misunderstand and take you literally.
> 
> Actually, there are two parts to the Poodle Health Registry....and 2 websites. One lists disease information and used to list health issues on individual dogs as they were registered. That was done before PHR had an online database and we're debating about whether to discontinue it, partially because of the abuse/misuse you describe. The second website is the PHRDB.
> 
> Only the owner of the dog can register a health issue with the PHR. It must be medically verified so we know it's a valid medical diagnosis. It is not necessary that a co-owner (usually the breeder) sign-off or approve the registration. However, if the health status should change, the diagnosis be proven incorrect or the owner change their mind, PHR will remove any health data upon request from the original registrant. The pedigree itself is a matter of public record and will not be removed.
> 
> And Keith, in my opinion, the only ones who get hurt by not making affected status known is the Poodles. The more data there is in the database, the more 'invisible' individual dogs become and the more it has the utility for which it was designed. Knowledge of the health status of siblings of breeding dogs and of siblings of parents of breeding dogs is essential per Dr. Jerold Bell, the geneticist from Tufts.
> 
> Nancy


I completely agree Nancy, I would never withhold an affected testing...but I've seen far to many breeders/pet owners using the website as a tool to cast stones at dogs and people...when its used in that light I find it deplorable

(and I'm glad I didn't offend you with my comment, I truly wasn't meaning to do that)


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## CharismaticMillie

Thanks for providing the correct link, Outwest. When Millie and her littermates weren't showing up in the registry b/c of a studbook brain fart I just bugged Nancy to get Millie added. I am sure she would have been much happier had I found that link!!

Tiger showed up on the registry all on his own from having health testing done. Speaking of which, his VWD results are not showing up on there! Humm..


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## outwest

Bless the people trying to keep up with all those dogs. I like that database. I like Poodle pedigree, too, but PHR seems more complete to me. Bonnie's prelim. isn't showing up on it, either, but since it is prelim, it isn't important.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Ummm...excuse me? "Ask her co-owner" ? To the best of my knowledge, she will not make it to PHR unless she has testing done or something else to tweak their attention. I have NEVER added a dog's pedigree to PHR. I do not even know how. I post my dogs on poodlepedigree, and they magically make their way to PHR after their testing has been posted on OFA or their pedigree has been on Poodle Pedigree for a while, or when a litter has been registered with the CKC. I am not even certain that you, as an individual CAN post a pedigree there. If you know how to, let me know...


While Individuals cannot post pedigrees to PHR, anyone can request that a poodles pedigree be added. Keeping in mind that there are two parts to the PHR, the health registry part, then there is the pedigree part. In order to register a health issue of a poodle, clicking on the link that Outwest posted will get you to the right place. However, if you are interested in having a pedigree posted to PHR, there is a link on the bottom of each search page to "add a dog". Here is a clickable link to the information that is required so that the PHR folk can add. Add Dog So it is possible for everyone to have their registered dogs list in the pedigree section of PHR. 

Hope this is helpful!


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## CharismaticMillie

outwest said:


> Bless the people trying to keep up with all those dogs. I like that database. I like Poodle pedigree, too, but PHR seems more complete to me. Bonnie's prelim. isn't showing up on it, either, but since it is prelim, it isn't important.


Tigers prelim does not show up either. In his case it's because when his handler took him to her vet to be x-rayed she did not check the box granting permission to publicly post results on OFA's website (standard protocol on her part with prelims). His official results will of course be posted publicly. Perhaps this was the case with Bonnie? Or any number of other obstacles.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Keithsomething said:


> I completely agree Nancy, I would never withhold an affected testing...but I've seen far to many breeders/pet owners using the website as a tool to cast stones at dogs and people...when its used in that light I find it deplorable...


I couldn't agree with that more! 

I'm learning to take a really good look at the stone casters.. it's often one of those situations where when they are pointing one finger at someone else, three fingers are pointing back at them. I'm also trying exceptionally hard (and it is something I have to work at!) not to be a stone caster. There are times where I blow it.. or get really upset when people do breedings that are outside of MY comfort level as far as health risk. I'm also thinking that some of the things that in the past, I've considered as high risk lines for certain health issues... may not actually be high risk for those health issues any more than the next one.. but the environmental influences may be such that health issues are expressed in poodles who have average or even low risk. The very easiest example I can think of to use is that of hip dysplasia. Let's say a breeder frequently has pups who end up testing as dysplastic. Ok, so we throw the big "Watch out for the Hip Dysplasia" label on that kennel. We are cautious of all dogs carrying that kennel name because of the Hip Dysplasia history (I chose hip dysplasia randomly, could have been any of the BN polygenic health issues). Now let's take a closer look at the poodles from that kennel... often they came from different kennels or lines or weren't closely related to each other to start with. The kennels or lines they came with may not have had a higher than average rate of hip dysplasia. So.. we say "bad crosses". But how many of us actually take a look at the environment and conditions that the dogs live in and are raised in? What kind of food are they fed, how much activity do they have, what is their body mass? It is possible for a well meaning breeder to over feed and pamper and coddle their pups to an extent that they cause hip dysplasia. There are other environmental influences with the other BN health issues. It may be when a BN turns up instead of looking at our parent poodles, we may want to start taking a look at environment as well. By "outing" the kennel which produced the hip dysplasia, other breeders may lose interest in breeding to the poodles of that kennel. Yet, the poodles from that kennel may not have higher risk for producing hip dysplasia than the kennel of the stone caster.. the stone caster may just have better management practices.... or quite honestly.. may have just gotten lucky. I also find that stone casters tend to be the first to hide issues. There is absolutely no shame whatsoever in having a health issue.. it's what you do with that health issue once it rears it's ugly head.....that may bring shame. People who cast stones frequently present themselves as being breeders of the highest quality.. but the damage they do with their stone casting is often worse than anything positive they could have contributed with their breeding practices. 

Think I've said more than enough for today!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> While Individuals cannot post pedigrees to PHR, anyone can request that a poodles pedigree be added. Keeping in mind that there are two parts to the PHR, the health registry part, then there is the pedigree part. In order to register a health issue of a poodle, clicking on the link that Outwest posted will get you to the right place. However, if you are interested in having a pedigree posted to PHR, there is a link on the bottom of each search page to "add a dog". Here is a clickable link to the information that is required so that the PHR folk can add. Add Dog So it is possible for everyone to have their registered dogs list in the pedigree section of PHR.
> 
> Hope this is helpful!


Very much so! Thank you Darla!


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## outwest

Sorry about the bum link the first time. Goes to show not to do anything too quickly. The add dog link is the one I added mine with. Not much trouble to do.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Keith...just so you know...I have added her.


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## A'n'A Mom

Just as a quick clarification, about the 10th or 15th of each month, I do a search on OFA for all the Poodle health results that were listed in the previous month. I input all those results into the SPD which I send to Lynn and becomes the PHRDB. If there's enough information on OFA to identify parentage, I'll put that in too. So that's how dogs can appear in the PHRDB before they show up in the stud book. 

Of course, with AKC, a dog doesn't ever show up in the AKC stud book unless and until the litter it's produced is registered with AKC. Mr. Studly and Ms. FineBitch and their parents show up in the AKC stud book, but not the pups they produced. Then it's up to us to go to the AKC website and look up all of Mr. Studly and Ms.FB's littermates...... We have to wait until one of those pups is bred and the litter registered to have that show up in the stud book. That's why we ask for your help identifying new litters and why it sometimes takes a couple of years before you see your pup in the database!!

BTW, bless the Canadian Kennel Club!! They give us the sire, the dam, the size of the litter by # males & # females and the names and registration numbers of each of the registered puppies!! Hurray!! 

I've been working on filling in holes in the PHRDB/SPD with old CKC stud book info this last month, so I'm behind on OFA. But I'll just keep plugging away at it. If you want something included, let me know (nancy AT phrdatabase DOT org) or use the Add Dog feature Yadda mentioned.


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## outwest

Impressive, A and A.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

Keithsomething said:


> What about consistencey though? Of course there are gorgeous dogs out of lines that are continually outcrossed...but what sort of constistency is there in the litters? Would that specific line ever be able to establish a specific look?


The simple answer is *yes* you will get *consistency* in a litter but it will *not* be *overnight*. 

I by no way *know it all* but will gladly share the small amount of knowledge I have learned through experience and from others standard poodle breeders to hopefully *better the breed*.

If you want 24 inch dogs then you take 2 24 inch dogs and breed them together. You keep the 24 inch bitch/dog and then outcross it to another 24 inch dog and so on for a while and eventually you will have a litter or only 24 inch dogs. 

Hopefully if all the breedings are fully health tested, temperament plus outcrosses, (easier said than done), you will have healthy, temperament plus 24 inch dogs. 

The *issue* though is why do they all need to *look* exactly the *same*? Look in the poodle magazines and see how show dogs change from decade to decade. This is not just hair that changed. Fads, like overangulation, will not last forever but healthy well conformed dogs that make great pets can be around for years by way of frozen semen. The pendulum eventually swings back! VBG

To stay on topic, hahaha, a low COI is a good thing but *most*, not all, of the people who say they have *no Wycliffe* behind their dogs are just fooling themselves and do not look back far enough in the pedigree to find it. We, meaning all poodle breeders need to work towards generation of low COI to bring back dogs that produced large litters and bitches that had great mothering ability.

Do I sound like I want it all? Yep I am female. LOL

I myself hope that standard poodles that are a *joy to live with* and *make me laugh* are still aroung 100 years from now for my great grandchildren to enjoy.

The dog people could learn more about genetics thru livestock and horses. Many lessons can be learned from *other peoples* past successes and failures in breeding.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

So very true Rayah! Every word of it! This is the way my Mother taught me. If you were looking for type, breed like to like. No need for the dogs to be related!


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## Keithsomething

Rayah, that sounds like something I could see doing and liking. 

I KNOW linebreeding isn't everyones cup of tea and I don't expect it to be...but for me and what I've seen following pedigrees and looking at dogs and talking to breeders and owners, linebreeding doesn't terrify me. so it will be an option that I will without a doubt utilize at some point in my breeding career. 
There are lines I wish had more of an influence with my girl than others and a simple way of making that happen in her offspring would be to breed to something that is related to her (the dog I have intentions of introducing in a breeding is 4 generations back...not that it really matters lol) that has produced what I'm looking for.

I have no intentions of breeding her to her sire, or even a litter mate and I don't entirely agree with those breedings...but if a breeder feels its the best choice for them I have no qualms with them making that decision. 

What truly annoys me though is, I admit that my plans/ideals are ALL hypothetical and may very well change before I finally breed a litter of my own...but why can't more breeders admit that? Instead they stand firm that their ideals are the RIGHT way of doing it though they haven't had enough actual experience to back up their claims


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## outwest

Keithsomething said:


> Instead they stand firm that their ideals are the RIGHT way of doing it though they haven't had enough actual experience to back up their claims


This is how many people react. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but too many people (some on this board) are under the mistaken notion that opinion is synonymous with fact. 

I don't discount your opinion and I hope people don't discount mine. Some things are proven scientifically. Some have strong, but incomplete evidence. We should all do what we feel is right, but try to base things on as much real fact as possible. It may require changing our opinions on occasion, though. 

You will get more variety when you outcross. Size is the easiest to control, but variety is not evil and poodles have many puppies. Even my breeders dogs, who have been outcrossed more than most, have a look about them.


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## zyrcona

Keithsomething said:


> Instead they stand firm that their ideals are the RIGHT way of doing it though they haven't had enough actual experience to back up their claims


I don't understand why so many people cannot tolerate other people's opinions without disintegrating into _ad hominem_ attacks and verbal abuse, why they can't have more respect for people breeding for different purposes. According to each other, the breeders who put genetic diversity first are backyard breeders, scaremongers, and animal rights terrorists defiling the breed by producing hideous animals that don't look like what the breed is supposed to, and the breeders who put conformation first are producing exaggerated mutant freaks with no regard to health or welfare so that they can flounce about in front of an audience with their dogs and win a piece of ribbon. It is not going to harm either camp if the other continues to do what they do. As I have said before, I see nothing wrong with people taking their dogs to shows if that's what they enjoy, although I do think shows are taken way too seriously. However, there are still going to be breeders who don't breed for show purposes.


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## Keithsomething

Well it bothers me when people try and force any idea about breeding on someone else...we choose our own paths and breeding is no different...

BUT I do believe breeders need to be doing SOMETHING with their dogs, its fine and well if you chose not to show a dog in conformation, for whatever reason, but when you take up the performance cap you better be getting high level titles! an RN doesn't mean your dog should be bred ;D

I can name a dozen breeders that literally do nothing with their dogs, but they still say the exact same thing you're saying...how? If you aren't putting your dogs to the test WHY should that dog be bred? No performance titles, no conformation titles, and not even a basic obedience class!! I find it preposterous...

(I want to clarify when I say performance, it doesn't have to be just Agility or Obedience but Hunting and retrieving are a big one in our breed...and the breeders I'm referring to are definitely NOT doing that with their dogs lol)


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

During the time I have been involved with poodles, my views and ideas have done a lot of changing and evolving and I always reserve the right to change my mind.

I firmly believe that while the presence of a title or even multiple titles on a poodle MAY tell you a bit about that dog, it certainly tells you a lot about the owner. I've known plenty of poodles with no titles who have a whole heck of a lot more potential than certain poodles having alphabet soup before and after their names.

One of the things I'm learning here is.. about US! We each seem to have our own things we don't tolerate and our own sensitivities. If I'm understanding right, Outwest would like to see upper height limits and simply isn't thrilled with humongous poodles (used for example only and I may be putting words. .where I shouldn't, so Outwest, if I just stepped on your toes, please accept my apologies in advance, no offense was intended). You(@ Keith) have no use for poodles with out titles contributing to the genetics pool. Years ago, I believed that poodles should have some sort of title, they should do SOMETHING. I'm considerably more tolerant now. There is a saying that owners "tend to get the dog they deserve". What this means is that they develop the potential of that dog to the level that works best for them but what it doesn't mean.. is that poodles don't have potential. There are many out there who do need to see the old letters of the alphabet on a poodle before they feel it is of breeding quality. I feel a lot of good poodles are overlooked because of that. I also feel that the alphabet game can contribute to the making of top producers and contribute to common sire syndromes... but then <wicked grin> I also just happen to like my poodles big.

So how do all of our attitudes mesh together? Well.. I think we are all basically a bunch of really nice folk, who share a love of poodles. I believe that we can learn from one another. I hope that we learn to tolerate each other's ideosyncracies and while we may disagree that we can still support each other with our individual goals and pursuits. I also believe that the different strokes for different folks kinda thing is what will help to maintain health and diversity with our poodles. If we all line breed.. we're in trouble. If we all outcross.. we're in trouble. But if there is diversity in management practices, it gives us the potential to move ahead without eliminating genetics that we may need in the future.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Neither of these two girls have titles. 

The first has been my "right hand man" for more than a decade. There aren't enough letters in the alphabet to represent her skill and talents. What she has done in her daily living makes show and performance titles look a bit impotent (IMO). 

The second photo and the circumstances leading up to and after it, again, tell me more about this girl than any letters added onto her name would. I know how she moves, what her gait is, her passion to please, her people loving personality. OTHER people may need those letters for guidance. But I don't and life is much to short to spend it pleasing other people by accruing letters of the alphabet, when I could simply be spending time with my poodles.


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## outwest

yadda, I do think there should be a height limit because I feel that some of the really large ones have health issues- about 27 inches or so tops? But, that is only my opinion and doesn't matter much in the scheme of things.


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## Fluffyspoos

This shouldn't just be a question on COI and I'm not reading 10 pages after my vacation.

How will Quincy and Jenny be improving each others faults?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

In oh so many ways!!!! They both have incredible toplines, but Quincy is a hair shorter in body. Q will help with pigment. Jenny's rear angles are a little more exaggerated than Q's. Quincy has far better coat than the reds. Jenny's eye is a titch darker, but I prefer Q's eye shape. Jenny's feet are tighter. Quincy has a little more chest than Jenny and a better tailset. Thanks for asking. I love to brag about the good qualities of my furkids!


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## Fluffyspoos

I love a good chest! Do you have and profile shots of Quincy's chest after he was shaved down?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

There are barely any Standards with "great" chests anymore. This according to several top notch Canadian handlers who shared anecdotes with me about leaving a silver chest solidly matted, so the judge did not feel the concave chest but "thought" he was actually feeling chest. LOL! Quincy's chest is better, not great. But his Father's is better than his, and Jenny's mother's is better than hers- the best I have ever seen actually. THAT is why when you breed, you look at the entire pedigree, not just the dog you are breeding to.


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## CharismaticMillie

That makes sense. There are so many things to a "chest", too. For example, our pet Henry has a very deep, robust chest, with ample forechest. But his front angles are steep. (If not felt with your hands, it is quite evident when he moves!) My champion boy could use a tiny bit more robustness of chest, but has _excellent_ front angles. I've heard that it's quite difficult to breed away from a straight front, so I have to wonder if it's easier to have a dog with correct front angles but lacking in some depth as they can be bred to a heavier bodied dog to improve on the substance of chest. But that could just be _my_ preference. Personally, my pet peeve is to see a dog that cannot move in the ring due to steep front angles. (That and a hackney gait, but that's another thread!) But, a very shallow chest does bug me too. And of course, my ideal dog would have perfect depth *and* front angles.


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## Fluffyspoos

It's a bit hard to really see it from that angle? I was hoping for more of a profile shot (not that you can see a ton of detail since they're black) like this one


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Sorry, I do not have any like that. REALLY nice chest on that dog though!

Besides a fabulously low COI, improvements that will be brought to the table conformationally by both dogs, we also look happily ahead to the fact that BOTH parents have excellent hips, normal S/A tests, both are clear by parentage of vWd and NE, Quincy has normal elbows, Jenny has normal patellas, and hopefully on the 15th we will be able to say both parents have clear CERF's (Jenny already does) and OFA normal hearts (Jenny already does) and thyroids (Jenny already does). Lots more to breeding than an incredible chest I think.


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## CharismaticMillie

Arreau, I can assure you that was Kat who posted.


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## Fluffyspoos

Uh, what? I have never loaned my account to anyone.. the only person that has ever known my PF password was my boyfriend, back when I was meeting up with 2 members and got totally lost and needed him to get in my PMs and tell me one of their phone numbers. The situation you were remembering was a copy paste where I chose to post what I did, but regretted it after.

When have I ever said that I wasn't a structure person? I consider myself actually pro-structure, which is why I asked the questions that I asked out of curiosity of your breeding program.


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## plumcrazy

Fluffyspoos said:


> This shouldn't just be a question on COI and I'm not reading 10 pages after my vacation.


This thread actually IS about COI (as suggested by the title)

I also feel that some questions have been asked and answered - but yet are being asked again... This is usually what precedes a trainwreck.

Let's keep this thread on topic, please... COIs and the importance (or not) in breeding.

Thank you.

Barb


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## Fluffyspoos

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for breeding healthy, sound dogs. Grats on the COI.


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## Paragon

Arreau,

I know about the Silver dog with matts!.... How sad that it got any points at all! Handlers can work magic with unsound dogs.... There are lots of stories out there, most of them true to some extent. The judges are also to blame here. Good chests are hard to find, especially in the colours.

Pedigree analisis is really important when breeding sound dogs. The COI is one important part of it. It is not just names and numbers, we need to put a face to the stats, and look at what siblings produce to get a bigger picture.

The lower COI brings in fresh blood each generation. Health wise it promotes greater diversity in the genome. As long as we breed sound animals, with the original purpose of the breed in mind, we should have healthy sound dogs for the future.

Highly inbred dogs, have been shown in studys to have a lower life expectancy than dogs with a lower COI.

Paragon


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## PonkiPoodles

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am so excited! Our next breeding will be Quincy and Jenny. I ran a test breeding, and their pups will have a COI of 0.49% for twelve generations. I know some people do not care about low COI, but we do, so I am absolutely thrilled!!!


That's awesome... can't wait to see the pups


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## NOLA Standards

Though we've bounced around with topics on this thread, it was about Arreau's planned breeding with Quincy.

Congratulations and I wish you the best! I applaude the effort of not only locating Quincy and bringing him to N America (started to stay the States! oops!) but ALSO finishing his Can CH.

Hopefully your outcross will be the genetic jackpot. It's what we hope everytime and sometimes it happens. Fingers crossed for Quincy and Jenny.

Regarding the low low COI. Yaddaluv has the best statement regarding COIs and breeding techniques that I have ever read. I liked it so much I saved it. Maybe I liked it so much because my breeding plans include outcrossing ( = very low COI) and then line breeding ( = higher COI but still teens at most).

_Originally Posted by Yaddaluvpoodles 
Nothing was wrong with Wycliffe. They were the most popular dogs of the era, typey, gorgeous, excellent temperaments. 

What was wrong was the breeding strategies of the time. Everyone liked them, everyone bred to them to the exclusion of other lines and we lost a lot of our diversity. When you lose diversity, you also lose health.

*It takes mixed breeding strategies to ensure breed health. Separate lines need to be kept.. and that means that some people need to be doing some inbreeding and linebreeding, but there must be a place to outcross to, inorder to ensure genetic diversity. So if everyone breeds for low COI's and outcrosses consistantly... well that's a dead end breeding strategy too because pretty soon we will have mixed all of our genetics together and have no place to turn to.*
So.. it's important that there is variety in breeding strategies, when all breeders do the same things, have the same focus, use the same dogs... we are in trouble.

Now that had to be about the most confusing answer I've ever given. Guess I could have just said.. it depends._


Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Thank you NOLA! I am excited and hope their litter brings us what we are hoping for!

We have a little girl now coming from Very-Merry Poodles in the Czech Republic, and I think she and Quincy are going to one day make some stunning apricot babies! I look forward to that too!


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