# My puppy is controversial? warning:long post LOL



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Okay? Is this some sort of advertisement for Tiara poodles? I can't say that AKC breeder of Merit means *anything* to me, whatsoever. I also can't say that I would ever purchase a puppy from Tiara poodles. There are much worse breeders though, surely. Sounds like you are happy with your puppy and that is all that matters.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm not sure where you got the info with most standards being over 20%, because that is NOT the case. Standard poodles are a very popular breed, so you shouldn't have to breed to minis to get a lot COI.

My BYB bitch's coi is 0.78% 10-gen coi, and my black male from a reputable breeder is 1.01% 10-gen coi. Neither of mine have minis in their lines..

I personally don't see a reason to mix the sizes. Ever.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Standards absolutely do not have to have high COI's. Our pups are 1.68-5.28%. Our dogs are 0.79- 5.38%. I am not sure where you would've gotten this info.

I have no issue with a breeder who KNOWS what they are doing breeding a line of large minis to a line of small standards to do something to improve their lines and this is the only way they feel they can do it. But I do take issue with breeders doing it willy nilly and not carefully.

Your pup is adorable regardless of the situation or "controversy".


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

No, this is not an ad for Tiara Poodles LOL. I just thought I would talk about Bonnie because apparently she is controversial. I trusted the AKC Breeder of Merit designation and was very concerned after I bought her and then heard all this scut about Tiara. Whoa- was I in for something bad? Had I made an enormous mistake? WHY would AKC give her that designation if it wasn't true? 

I see there IS much controversy. I read the 20% average inbreeding on several sites. I do see that the breeders above do not have that problem. It was just a percent I found that the average standard had. Your babies are obviously not average. I can look up the sites again if you like. 

So, the controversy seems to lie in the fact that a large miniature was bred to a standard three generations ago, not that European standards were bred to the line (they look a little different than American standards). I don't quite see how breeding to a large miniature from all champion lines to a standard from all champion lines is 'willy nilly'. I mean, all sizes of poodles have the exact same confirmation requirements. Of course, maybe the personalities are different? Tiara did cobreed the #1 standard AKC poodle in the 1990's. 

I am very happy with Bonnie and do think she is pretty. I am not planning on breeding Bonnie. Although I love the cream color, I understand that pure white and black are the colors of choice for breeding (except, what's with all the parti's and other colors coming out?). 

I just wish Bonnie didn't carry this 'baggage'. Tiara did not hide anything. I can't see how doing something once to see what happens, experimenting if you will, is any different than how we have manipulated dogs for a hundred years. I mean, look at what has been done to labradors (short legs) and bull dogs. We wouldn't have the poodles we do now if there wasn't manipulation. American poodles don't look like the rest of the worlds poodles, which shows how far Americans have manipulated them. 

As a consumer (yes, a puppy buyer is a consumer) I trusted the AKC Breeder of Merit designation to mean good quality, healthy puppies that were typical to type. If you can't trust the AKC to steer you to a good breeder, than who the heck can you trust?! If there was an issue with Tiara, why wouldn't they remove that designation? 

I am sorry that people think my beautiful puppy is controversial


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I think some people may see this breeding mix as a gimmic to sell yet another poodle. I honestly don't have an opinion either way because I have not seen a lot on this. 

Your breeder is apparently standing strong on her decision and seems to be ethical. I like the fact she focuses on performance aside from testing. Maybe this is another reason she is doing it..... ?

However doing it for a lower COI seems a bit hard to understand it being a sole motivator. Miniatures share a lot less when it comes to health issues than the standard. 

I have to say Bonnie is a gorgeous dog. Congrats!


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## Princess Dollie (Jan 15, 2011)

How can a puppy be controversial? Breeders are controversial, not dogs.

There are people on this forum that have acquired their pet poodles from a breeder that rhymes (sort of) with kazoo. I'd mentioned their name, but from the language all the way to the bottom of their home page; apparently, they are all lawyered-up and ready to sue!

Anyway, these folks are doing things with their dogs. They are putting perfomance titles on them. These dogs speak well of the poodle breed in general. I don't think anyone would accuse these owners or their dogs as controversial.

Be proud of Bonnie. She is a beautiful dog whom I have no doubt will make you proud too.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Princess Dollie said:


> There are people on this forum that have acquired their pet poodles from a breeder that rhymes (sort of) with kazoo. I'd mentioned their name, but from the language all the way to the bottom of their home page; apparently, they are all lawyered-up and ready to sue!



Very good riddle! And so true LOL


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I think bringing in a nice mini could add tons of things to a line and it seems to me that J B (Tiara Poodles) seems to be doing just that...she has made a conscious effort to better the health of her dogs by outcrossing to lines that are COMPLETELY unrelated (seeing as they're 2 different varieties)

I see no difference in introducing a health tested awesome mini in one generation then breeding up from it to carefully chosen mates than introducing an awesome health tested dog into a completely unhealth tested red line...

No matter ones opinion of Tiara or what she breeds I think you'd be hard pressed to not give her the accolades that she deserves especially seeing how long she has been involved with breeding and showing...all things people on this forum seem to care about (and not to mention that she has co-bred one of my favourite stud dogs ever Kaylens Cadillac Style...who just so happens to be behind my girl :]] )

Congratulations on your puppy, she looks adorable 

I'll add that I personally wouldn't breed to a mini...I don't like the size that they produce when paired with a standard, but I understand the benefits of doing it


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I see above you have said : "I don't quite see how breeding to a large miniature from all champion lines to a standard from all champion lines is 'willy nilly'. "

I think you misread Arreaus's comment. I think she was saying that she wouldn't like breeding to a mini "willy nilly" but I don't think that was a comment about Tiara. I think it was just a general comment about breeders that might do it all the time without due consideration.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Purley said:


> I see above you have said : "I don't quite see how breeding to a large miniature from all champion lines to a standard from all champion lines is 'willy nilly'. "
> 
> I think you misread Arreaus's comment. I think she was saying that she wouldn't like breeding to a mini "willy nilly" but I don't think that was a comment about Tiara. I think it was just a general comment about breeders that might do it all the time without due consideration.


Thank you for clarifying that Purley! No, that was not targeted in any way at Tiara. There was a big hoop di doo on this forum not long ago regarding Karin Benker's dogs at Karbit Poodles. I take no issue with Karin's practices at all. If she opts to breed a large mini to a small standard...well...she knows a whole lot more about this than I do, so who am I to judge her. She tests, I think her dogs look good, there are people on this forum who her pups and adore them and have shown that they are incredibly bright. I cannot possibly know why she does things the way she does and her practices do not affect me in any way. She is responsible and seems to have a plan.

I cannot speak for Tiara as I know very little about them. But it appears she too is testing, and doing things right.

I do have an issue with people who breed a mini to a standard because because the mini is available. There is no plan, no rationale behind their decision, no research done. THIS could be a disaster waiting to happen and not a good idea!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Beautiful dog! Don't worry about "controversy" involving the breeder. Though there are some concepts on which most reputable breeders agree, there are always details in which they differ in opinion, and I don't think anyone really holds that against the buyers of the puppies...or at least, I haven't noticed that here in the short time I've been a member (or the longer time before that I spent lurking!).

Hey, my very first dog was purchased from a PET STORE! :afraid: :ahhhhh: (I was a teen who knew everything and not enough!) I went on to title that dog in Obedience, and no one ever looked down their noses at me, even though it was *very* obvious she was not from properly bred lines. (And it didn't take long hanging around at shows until I learned better for my next dog!)

Enjoy your pretty puppy!

--Q


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## McKay (Feb 19, 2011)

She is very pretty.


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## all that jazz (Feb 6, 2011)

Your dog is lovely. All that you have written suggests she is also lovely from within, too. She is one of God's creatures. All the other things, are just constructs set up by people and organizations. I am all for health testing of course. However, though keeping to breed "standards" and practices is something one might strive for, it is not relevant to the fact that you have a beautiful, darling living creature. Please enjoy her and let all the rest go.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Oh, I do enjoy her. She is lovely. I am very happy with her looks, personality and intelligence. The groomer even said she was well behaved when we had her trimmed. I think because she had been trimmed several times before we got her? I am happy about her health tested parents. She will be a great size for my family. I was just curious what poodly people thought the big issue was and was initially surprised there was even an issue. 

You couldn't drag this baby out of my hands. Her personality is so stable and responsive. I have owned a lot of dogs and raised a lot of puppies. Her personality is really special to me and perfect for me. I looked at four puppies and checked their puppy personality tests before I chose her. Julie thought she would fit well with us and I think she was right. 

I look forward to sharing her growing up with everyone here.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

I have 5 spoos and all of them have COI's under 10 %


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

As far as I'm concerned, your sweet girl is not controversial -- she's beautiful. Period, end of story.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

You have a beautiful dog. No controversy here. I think they did a good job in their research when doing this cross. I have no idea why this is such a hoopla after the disasterous results of "popular sire syndrome" from "top breeders", still working on crawling out of that sand pit.


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## snowbie_luv (Mar 1, 2011)

Haha. I *think* I stumbled upon this breeder today while doing some google image searches in my free time (aka I have no life). Weird coincidence to stumble upon this post the same day.



Princess Dollie said:


> How can a puppy be controversial? Breeders are controversial, not dogs.
> 
> There are people on this forum that have acquired their pet poodles from a breeder that rhymes (sort of) with kazoo. I'd mentioned their name, but from the language all the way to the bottom of their home page; apparently, they are all lawyered-up and ready to sue!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Winnow said:


> I have 5 spoos and all of them have COI's under 10 %


You are from Iceland.  You guys don't have the same issues. I do not think it was just the COI, but health.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

outwest said:


> You are from Iceland.  You guys don't have the same issues. I do not think it was just the COI, but health.


They DO have the same issues because all of Winnow's dog were imported from elsewhere. Though they were imported from other European countries, a lot of European dogs come from North American lines, whether on one side or the other or both.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

From what I have seen in poodles (reds and apricots mostly) the dogs over there usually have a strong base of an American line behind them as Cherie said...so they do have the same health issues as our dogs here

and about showing, I know a few people from Iceland, Winnow is one of them...I don't know if its the norm but ALL of the people I know show their dogs over there lol and their dogs usually win (I know how to pick my friends ;D) My one friend just finished his Japanese Chin so shes officially an Icelandic Champion! Which is a feat, seeing as any dog MUST be 2 or over to finish over there (Right Disa?)


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

outwest said:


> You are from Iceland.  You guys don't have the same issues. I do not think it was just the COI, but health.


A poodle is a poodle is a poodle. It doesn't matter what country it's on. It's very easy not to inbreed you dog, there is NO reason to mix the sizes, regardless of health or coi.

The only dogs you'll find with really high cois are BYB idiots that leave siblings intact, wycliffe, and torbec, but torbec dogs are healthy.

Just enjoy your dog, I don't see the point in making this entire thread.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> ... It's very easy not to inbreed you dog, there is NO reason to mix the sizes, regardless of health or coi.
> ...


I haven't been studying Poodles long enough to know this, Fluffyspoos. I can only say that the (relatively cursory) research I _did _do before deciding to get a Poodle, suggested that many breeders were quite concerned about lack of genetic diversity in the breed.

In a discussion related to this I quoted the Tiara breeder. [ http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/11789-hypothetical-discussion-post149870.html#post150020 ] I suppose there is a whole set of reasons she chose to act as she did; I am not sure whether these have been fully expressed or examined. I don't see clearly how you can state that there is "NO reason" for the outcross unless you know the reasoning completely. What may be a reason for one, may not be a reason for another. Should be easy enough to avoid the Tiara dogs, if you don't believe they constitute a positive contribution to the breed.

2cents

*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

outwest said:


> You are from Iceland.  You guys don't have the same issues. I do not think it was just the COI, but health.


lol this is to funny. Like Iceland is some kind of happy place where nothing bad happens  

My dogs are all imported except for one. Her parents come from Denmark and Sweden. 
Then I have one from Sweden with parents from Brazil/Norway and one from Finland with parents from Sweden/Australia and one from Germany with parents from America/Germany..

And like Keith said lot of the people show there dogs even pet people and we do it on our own with out the fancy handlers but for each show we have handling classes that everyone can go to. 

And the dog has to be over 2 years old to become a champion.

We have to import on regular basis to keep the ball rolling since the country was closed until 1991 so we barely had any purebreds except for some min poodles, labs and border collies.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

The poodle gene pool is huge. If you're finding it difficult to get a stud to outcross to, then import genes from another country.

My statement still stands, there's no reason anyone needs to mix mini + standard.


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

outwest said:


> ...I am very happy with Bonnie and do think she is pretty. I am not planning on breeding Bonnie.
> 
> ....I just wish Bonnie didn't carry this 'baggage'.
> 
> ...I am sorry that people think my beautiful puppy is controversial


Who told you that your puppy is controversial? The puppy herself is not controversial the breeding of minis to standards tends to be. 

If you are walking in the park, in a store, or anywhere else with your dog, and someone comes up and wants to meet your puppy, are you going to say "Hi, I'm Outwest, and this is Bonnie, three generations back, on her sires side, there is a large mini"...of course not, and if you do people will probably be really confused, and wonder why it's relevant. 



"most" standards do not have a coi over 20% most of mine are in the .35% - 2.something% range...I do have one line bred boy that has a 14.63%, Linebreeding and inbreeding (when properly used) are used to perfect a "type" or "look" that a breeder wants to achieve. ultimately a breeder wants to look out in a herd of poodles, and pick out their breeding or line. 
There wasn't a whole lot of focus on health a diversity in poodles in the past, but now a low Coi is strived for, at the same time, breeders want consistency and type. I cant speak for all breeders, but this seems to be goal with most. 

Her breeder must have a plan for this, and it looks like shes reaching her goals, no matter what you breed, you need goals. 

no one on here should be dumping on someone's puppy,( and as far as I've read, no one is) If you love her, who cares that she has a mini ancestor? 
As long as your puppy is healthy, happy and well adjusted, and you are happy with her, that's all that matters.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> The poodle gene pool is huge. If you're finding it difficult to get a stud to outcross to, then import genes from another country.
> 
> My statement still stands, there's no reason anyone needs to mix mini + standard.


I disagree entirely. We have no idea, because we are not privy to the answers, what goals this breeder aspires to. So why would we claim it is wrong or unnecessary? If Shangri-La, Palmares and Majestic had not bred minis to standards, there would be no red standards today. THEY had a goal and a vision, and it worked. And I beg to differ. The gene pool is NOT huge! We have been very keen on some European dogs and when we go to PHR to get a vertical pedigree, most go back to North American dogs on one side or the other, and most of them popular breeding dogs and a lot of them problem dogs.


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## MrsD2008 (May 26, 2014)

Hi there. May I just say, Bonnie is beautiful. As she is not going to be bred, does it matter that she has a mini in her bloodline. I would only be concerned if Bonnie was going to become a breeding dog. As she is a pet, and is loved to pieces, does it matter? She is gorgeous, intelligent and has a perfect personality...end of story. Congratulations on your new puppy. May she live a long and happy life with you and your family xx


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

You have a gorgeous puppy! She seems perfect in every way. I do share your curiosity about how the AKC determines a Breeder of Merit. Do any of our PF members know? That designation was one of the boxes I checked in searching for a reputable breeder. Looking forward to your pictures and enviable training triumphs with this beautiful dog.


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

Bonnie is a beautiful dog that seems to be exactly what you wanted. Beautiful, friendly, intelligent and hopefully someday a watch dog. Congratulations.


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

I don't know what it takes to be a breeder of merit in the AKC but in my experience it didn't seem like it took much.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Lol this is another old thread but I'm glad it was revived. I enjoyed reading it as I too have dreamed of getting a Tiara spoo. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

AKC Breeder of Merit info
https://www.akc.org/breederofmerit/requirements.cfm
Didn't realize this thread started in 2011!


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