# Poodle Pups With Principal - Breeder near Bloomington, IL



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

"the size is set now" suggests a lot of inbreeding to me. i know it's still done by very respectable breeders, but i my antennae would go up when the breeder is also not consistently doing serious testing. that being said, i was reading nola's cover page on her web site and she mentioned that one of the breeders who "established" reds/apricots in the u.s. bred a mini to a standard as the start of her line. the more science uncovers, the less it seems that that is the way to go. but i definitely could be waaaay off base on that.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

MiniPoo said:


> I asked her if they bred a miniature to a standard to get the 25-30 lbs range, and she said not anymore, that the size was set now. I asked what testing they did and she couldn't remember. I think it was not her prime concern. She did mention how laid back the puppy was and how everyone comments on how calm she is. I really couldn't say that about Dakota. He has many fine points, but calmness is a goal yet to be reached. He IS quiet when he's sleeping.


I wouldn't touch this breeder with a ten foot pole if they don't do the most testing possible on their dogs, no matter how cheap and conveniently nearby the puppy, but as we've seen in other threads opinions on this differ. There is also a moyen breeder near me that bred standards to minis to get the size, and I have met some of the pups and read about them on this forum. They are riddled with problems, some health-related, and others related to inadequate early socialization. This is a case of doubling up on potential health problems (by cross-breeding what are essentially two different breeds that are susceptible to many of the same problems as well as a few unique to each breed) and without extreme diligence and a lot of pedigree research and testing, it is not a good idea at all.

I don't believe that a puppy should be "calm," because their hyperactive bodies and brains are a vital part of their development. A calm puppy sets off alarm bells for me... puppies should be wiggly, impulsive and outgoing. Some puppies will be wigglier, more impulsive, and more outgoing than others, but this is a normal puppy trait and shows that they are happy and healthy.

A puppy that moves slowly, doesn't explore the world actively and with excitement, and approaches people without enthusiasm makes me question both physical issues and potential problems with socialization and/or underlying personality. Even play biting is important, and a puppy that doesn't develop a soft mouth when young is a disaster waiting to happen. One of the first signs of a dog that will have major anxiety issues later in life is a puppy that is slow to warm up to strangers. If I were this owner, I'd be enrolling in a good puppy class ASAP and trying to make up for lost time on socialization to prevent many years of misery with an anxious dog.

Any puppy in the guide dog program I work with that is shy from the start is eliminated from the training program to become a working dog, but when they're adopted the owners get *extra* help making sure they can function well because these pups can be high-risk. A quiet puppy is not normal. It's such a misconception that a "calm" puppy will automatically grow into an "easy" dog!! They can be some of the hardest, and tragically end up going home with people who don't know what they are signing up for.

I hope this is not the case for this puppy, but I don't envy the owner because I think there is a solid chance that she has a storm brewing.

Dakota sounds like a normal, healthy, high-drive little poodle dude. He'll slow down eventually, but a lot of the fun of raising a dog from puppyhood is watching your crazed landshark grow into a good citizen. The transformation can seem miraculous, but happens over so many months and so slowly that you always feel like you're standing still until suddenly you look at your dog and realize he hasn't ruined your shoes in ages! My best guide dog ever, who is now 10 and gray around the muzzle, was my most manic shoe-stealing hyperactive, naughty, disobedient fool as a puppy. Patience, grasshopper! Dakota's a diamond slowly emerging from the rough! :smile:


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Wow, Sophie Anne, you certainly have a different way at looking at puppy activity level than I do. On the whole, I agree with your comments and I certainly like the expression "normal, healthy, high-drive little poodle dude." May have to use "little poodle dude" in daily discourse, I like it so much.

My first 2 PWDs were very, very laid back and calm. The first one did have problems and turned out to have Addison's. The second one was Phoenix and she is just a happy, calm dog, not a fearful one. So a puppy being calm and laid back does not mean it is fearful. I did not get that sense from this person at the vets.

Neeka and Dakota are both from performance breeders and as puppies had a high level of activity and were both land sharks of epic proportions. Neeka indeed grew out of it and it is hard to remember her mouthy period. She has developed a mild case of Addisons and can be somewhat fearful (note earlier post about her being afraid of the microwave for a while).

Dakota is definitely high-driven and very people friendly and he is also a _brave little poodle dude_:act-up:. Only thing that scares him a little is another dog barking. So his issues are mostly liking people TOO much in that he gets very excited to meet them, and not being too dog friendly at this time. He does not attack any dogs (except Neeka and Phoenix) but he is not looking to make friends of them either.

_(Little poodle dude is sleeping peacefully at this time, side by side with big sister Phoenix. It IS amazing to see.)_


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I've had puppies that were calm that turned out calm and turned out wonderfully. My Lab was one of them. My little black Poodle, Maurice has been a calm puppy compared to Matisse. That is not to say that they weren't playful, inquisitive, mischievous. But they certainly weren't hyper and wild lunatics. (like Matisse_ was_) My Chihuahuas were both relatively calm, not hyper. And grew up to be lovely. So I guess you're talking about such calm that the pup is abnormal. I don't know that that is what the op meant when describing this puppy she met. Of course, a lethargic, disinterested puppy would raise red flags. But a calmer sort of demeanor doesn't automatically spell disaster. Both my Poodles stopped biting humans hands very quickly....I think within a week or two. They still bite toys and pick things up in their mouths though. Maurice has become more goofy as he's aged. Matisse has mellowed a lot. Anyhow, let's hope that puppy doesn't have something wrong with it.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Javelin is a very different puppy than Lily was. She was always on and a wild child. She has grown into a very confident and happy working dog, but it was very hard work for almost a year and a half. Javelin has two wild times of day where he acts over the top. The first is at about 6:00 AM and the other is around 7:30 PM. In between he is either napping (now), eating or playing nicely. I am finding him to be very receptive to training during the day. He focuses easily and has energy from breakfast or lunch to do puppy work. I agree that a very much quieter puppy than he is would make me concerned.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

MiniPoo said:


> Wow, Sophie Anne, you certainly have a different way at looking at puppy activity level than I do. On the whole, I agree with your comments and I certainly like the expression "normal, healthy, high-drive little poodle dude." May have to use "little poodle dude" in daily discourse, I like it so much.
> 
> My first 2 PWDs were very, very laid back and calm. The first one did have problems and turned out to have Addison's. The second one was Phoenix and she is just a happy, calm dog, not a fearful one. So a puppy being calm and laid back does not mean it is fearful. I did not get that sense from this person at the vets.
> 
> ...


It's my personal preference to have a dog that is _too_ sociable as opposed to shy because it's much easier emotionally (for the human) to train a dog that loves everyone than one that fears everyone. And I think that most dogs can be trained to love meeting people, even the ones that are shy in the beginning, but you have to be aware of the looming problem and intervene with lots of treats and kindness from a safe distance before any anxiety takes hold.

Dakota is going to be an awesome dog (and is already a great puppy). I can't wait until Ari can put herself to sleep; right now it's GO GO GO GO unless I put her in her crate or Sleepypod to cool down. She gets crazier and crazier as she gets tired but doesn't settle, even though she knows the command. She cries like a human toddler when I put her in the crate sometimes, "I want to PLAY mom, I'm NOT EVEN TIRED!" and then mid-cry passes out... She is very strong-willed, haha.



Poodlebeguiled said:


> I've had puppies that were calm that turned out calm and turned out wonderfully. My Lab was one of them. My little black Poodle, Maurice has been a calm puppy compared to Matisse. That is not to say that they weren't playful, inquisitive, mischievous. But they certainly weren't hyper and wild lunatics. (like Matisse_ was_) My Chihuahuas were both relatively calm, not hyper. And grew up to be lovely.* So I guess you're talking about such calm that the pup is abnormal.* I don't know that that is what the op meant when describing this puppy she met. Of course, a lethargic, disinterested puppy would raise red flags. But a calmer sort of demeanor doesn't automatically spell disaster. Both my Poodles stopped biting humans hands very quickly....I think within a week or two. They still bite toys and pick things up in their mouths though. Maurice has become more goofy as he's aged. Matisse has mellowed a lot. Anyhow, let's hope that puppy doesn't have something wrong with it.


Yes, I was talking about the bolded statement. There is a fine line between a dog that is calm and laid back in personality and a dog that is anxious. I'm not sure that most people, even people that know dog behavior very well, can tell the difference without some idea of the background of a puppy. Certainly the general public often conflates behavior that is nervous and standoffish to a dog-person (no eye contact, slow/low wagging tail, not jumping up to greet, hiding behind owner) as "calm" even though that behavior is conveying feelings that are anything BUT calm.

Example:
There was a Cairn terrier at Ari's puppy class last night that was clearly having a major issue from the beginning of the class, because she wasn't barking along with the rest of the puppies in the room and was sitting close to her owner, very still. The instructor of the class, who I co-raised one of my guide dogs with, saw this at the beginning of class and requested that she move out from the main room back into a side room so that the dog could observe the class but not be overstimulated to the point of fear. The owner declined to move and said that the puppy is "fine with dogs at home" and "loves people" but neither of those things were true. The owner saw her dog sitting still and thought that she was doing BETTER than the other puppies in the class.

We talked for about 45 minutes about different skills (this was the first class where the puppies were all together, so the big skill for the day was just sitting in a chair spaced 10 ft from the other puppies and letting the pups settle while we chatted) and the whole time the Cairn stayed under the chair, warily peeking out from between her owner's legs. She wasn't snarling, or barking, or pulling on the leash, but her behavior clearly said that this was too much stimulation for her.

At the end of the class, we let the pups off the leash to play for two minutes and the terrier was moved to the side room because she was clearly not safe (despite the owners protestation and insistence that she would be fine!). As soon as the other puppies started moving around and playing, that dog hit the glass of the side room SNARLING and snapping... She bit her owner pretty hard and drew blood when she inappropriately tried to grab her and pull her back from the glass. The owner was furious, insisting that the dog was just jealous that she couldn't be in the big room with the other dogs... I do not think she will be at the next class, which is tragic because that little terrier needs a lot of help. Things like this break my heart, because that owner is just too proud to admit that her dog is imperfect (as are all of the puppies and people in the class in various ways), and was determined to blame the instructor for the issue. :sad:

There are indeed puppies that have more laid-back temperaments but, in general, *a puppy that is still and quiet in a new and stimulating situation* is showing signs of anxiety that may develop into a big problem if ignored. Every puppy gets anxious, but how you handle that anxiety is what makes all the difference.



lily cd re said:


> Javelin is a very different puppy than Lily was. She was always on and a wild child. She has grown into a very confident and happy working dog, but it was very hard work for almost a year and a half. Javelin has two wild times of day where he acts over the top. The first is at about 6:00 AM and the other is around 7:30 PM. In between he is either napping (now), eating or playing nicely. I am finding him to be very receptive to training during the day. He focuses easily and has energy from breakfast or lunch to do puppy work. I agree that a very much quieter puppy than he is would make me concerned.


There's also the bias that he's not your first spoo puppy so you know how to schedule him! Half the battle is knowing what to do as a puppy parent, so you should pat yourself on the back for his behavior, too. I'm sure that the difference is at least partly because you know to take deep breaths and wait it out now, whereas with Lily you got anxious when things weren't running smoothly.

Javelin sounds like a lot of fun! The dawn/dusk wild time is common for puppies. Ari gets peak crazy at those times too, but she is amenable to reason during the in-between times which is when we do obedience and puppy school. I'm trying to love the crazies while they last, but at times I just want to cover my head with a pillow! Ari makes me anxious because she really wants to bite bees and is so faassst that she zooms faster than I can give commands. Oh, puppies!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks sophie anne. Yes we are different with this puppy than we were with Lily and Peeves, but Javelin also really is just different too! He will be an easy keeper.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

When I went to pick up Dakota, I had a chance to take his silver brother Teddy, but I had watched videos of Teddy furiously playing and never seeming to relax. I told this to the breeder and she said, "Teddy does not have an OFF button." So we took the blue boy (named Drew at that time). I had had my heart set on silver but I really wanted a dog with an OFF button, and Dakota does have one, thankfully.

Your Ari sounds a lot like Teddy, smart and fast, but constantly on the go. Better that someone like you has this type of dog than I. I do not think I would have enough patience for a dog like Teddy, who ended up going to a family in Florida who do obedience competitions.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I think any puppy can be calm and getting a pup from her doesn't mean it will be calm. 

For the first 5 months and 29 days of Naira's life I honestly thought she was sick. She was so calm. Especially when she was 3-4 months old...all she did was sleep, never pulled on the leash, automatically sat for all greetings, it was like a well trained 5 year old in a 20 week olds body. 


When she hit adolescence she definitely got an energy spike. She's still really calm, but needs a lot more exercise to be that way. I'm having to go back and reinforce things that she had down pact like sitting for greetings, and loose leash walking. 

She never jumps on furniture or in the car, she always climbs. She never gets into anything in the house though and never counter surfs or looks for trouble, and she is left unattended in the house for looooong periods 3 times a week. She's never barks or makes a sound. 

I know someone that has one of her brothers and it sounds like they are polar opposites. I think he chewed through a couch, took months to potty train and needs 4 hours of exercise a day. Full siblings. 

I'm sure you know all this, it's just funny to see how different siblings can be. 

When I brought my toy poodle home the first night, I knew she was going to be trouble. Lol. When I brought my mini home he was petrified. After the second day or so I knew he was goin to be medium energy. And I knew Naira would be lower energy. 

I think that I've never brought a pup home at 12-16 weeks and been completely surprised by their personality when they grew up. It's the 8 wk olds that have shocked me. That's why I prefer to bring home older puppies....


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## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

Interesting website for that breeder. So many red flags. Tiny toys? SMH


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## Sam I Am (Jul 6, 2008)

MiniPoo said:


> While I was at the vet's office today with Dakota, a person came in for supplies for their new poodle pup. She said it was a moyen and she got it just an hour away in Bloomington, IL. It is a female apricot that should be around 30 lbs. She went on to describe her visit to the breeders, which is a family in central Illinois who calls their kennel Poodle Pups With Principal.
> 
> Website: For Sale Illinois Breeder, Toy Poodle Puppies, Miniature Poodles Puppy, Poodle Puppies, Chicago, Peoria - Home
> 
> ...


I'm with you. I live about an hour from Bloomington also and came across this breeder. They didn't sit right with me either. On the other hand, Jackson's breeders site didn't sit well with me either. I fell in love with his face and when I talked to her about all of my concerns she seemed to have all of the correct answers. Turned out I was right to be concerned, but so far his health is good and he has grown into a perfect member of our family. In the future however, I will find a breeder that I feel FULLY comfortable with.


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## poodlepupsprincipal (Sep 20, 2015)

*This is breeder from original post*

Hi, this is the owner of Poodle Pups W/Principal. Someone brought this thread to my attention so I joined the forum to clear up some inaccurate statements. I would caution people from making assumptions or speculating without really any facts to support the statements. Honestly all of us probably would expect others to do the same for them. I do genetically screen all my dogs with around 8 different tests. I never ever line or inbred which my website states that specifically. It is probably best to ask the breeder the specific questions you have instead of posting information that is not accurate or based off anything factual. At least give them the benefit of the doubt if you don't want to ask them directly. I don't plan on getting into a back and forth on this. I stand behind my puppies as my health guarantee suggests and can't remember the last time I haven't had a wait list for puppies. This forum does seem like a great resource and wealth of information for poodle owners! I plan on visiting frequently as I feel I can learn a lot from members here!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I like that you are not afraid to defend yourself and willingly will answer questions that are asked ....Good for you! Hope to have you here for a long time and hope you join in often!


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## poodlepupsprincipal (Sep 20, 2015)

*Thanks Mollymuima*

It is all good! Thanks for the kind words. Not upset at anyone but just wanted to clear things up about me that were blatantly false. Ready to move forward and enjoy the wealth of knowledge I have seen from many of the forum members here!


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

poodlepupsprincipal said:


> It is all good! Thanks for the kind words. Not upset at anyone but just wanted to clear things up about me that were blatantly false. Ready to move forward and enjoy the wealth of knowledge I have seen from many of the forum members here!


Good for you to show your face and set things straight.
I have always felt that speculation is really a waste of time.......... 
Oh, and welcome to the forum.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Hi! I am the original poster of this thread. I believe that I accurately related my conversation with one of your puppy owners who said she bought a moyen puppy from you that would end up being about 30 lbs. She might not have been stating the truth. I do not know. She also thought you bred a miniature poodle to a standard to arrive at this size. Was there any truth in that? Or was she misinformed? 

When I first went looking for a poodle in 2014 I wanted a poodle that would be in the 20-30 lb range and would have loved to have gotten one mere hours away from where I lived. But I was not looking for the colors that you breed. So I had no reason to contact you and waste your time asking about more specifics about what gene testing you do.

I was merely relating the story of my conversation with one of your puppy owners and listing your website, which did give me the impression that you did not test every parent sire/dam of your litters. You might want to look over the wording on your website to be more precise about that.

I like businesses that are family owned because those businesses usually stand behind their product because it represents their family. I have nothing against your business and I wish you well.


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## poodlepupsprincipal (Sep 20, 2015)

Minipoo, 
Your original post was fair and balanced and it was not your post that led me to respond but some follow up ones. It sounds like the buyer you talked to was pleased with her pup but may have had a limited understanding of poodles. I am not sure who you talked to but I do sell puppies that get up to 30 pounds, so she was accurate. That is the biggest my puppies would get. That dame is my largest dog and she almost 30 pounds. The sire is around 20 pounds. I have never owned/bred a standard poodle. Actually love that size and their intelligence/personality at least as much as the smaller ones, but I don't have the room for dogs that size. My minis/moyens are bred to my other non related moyens/minis naturally. 
Years ago I had other colors, but only have apricot and reds.
All my adults that I breed have been tested and are clear for: CERF, cardiac, patella, thyroid, Von Willebrand, Legges Calves Perthes, Hips, and most for Progessive Rod Cone Degeneration ( I have kept a couple pups from parents who were clear that I have not tested). Even though this is recessive all my other adults have tested clear for PRCD.
Honestly, among other things, my prices are reasonable because other than $4.99 per month for my yahoo web hosting I spend no money on advertising and spend little time marketing (rarely even update website). I still have a lot to learn and room for growth (i.e. timely communication with potential buyers)....sigh
Again, appreciate your original and follow up post and your kind wishes for my family and I.


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## VancouverBC (Sep 9, 2012)

*Question to Poodlepupsprincipal*

Poodlepupsprincipal, I'm looking for a pup of the size you breed. I'm on the west coast of Canada and would be seeking out breeders in Canada because of the exchange. 
Out of curiosity and for my education, what do you mean "the size is set"? How was that achieved?
Thanks in advance.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Welcome Poodlepupsprincipal! I wish you would start a thread on the Moyen program. It seems to be a very desirable size and my understanding is that there are not a lot of reputable breeders in the U.S. We've read some sad stories on the forum of alleged Moyens, so you must forgive our skepticism. No wonder you have waiting lists!


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## poodlepupsprincipal (Sep 20, 2015)

VancouverBC said:


> Poodlepupsprincipal, I'm looking for a pup of the size you breed. I'm on the west coast of Canada and would be seeking out breeders in Canada because of the exchange.
> Out of curiosity and for my education, what do you mean "the size is set"? How was that achieved?
> Thanks in advance.


Honestly I am not sure what that phrase means because I have never used such phrase. I went back to the original person who posted it and from the context it appears that the size being set means that the size of the pups was more set when a moyen is bred to another moyen or one close to that size rather than breeding a full size standard to a toy/small miniature to get a moyen? I dont know necessarily if that is true or not as all my moyen pups i have gotten from natural breedings to others dogs of similar size. Therefore I have nothing to compare my experiences to. Honestly though that is just my guess as I have never heard a breeder use that phrase and have never used that phrase myself.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Mfmst said:


> Welcome Poodlepupsprincipal! I wish you would start a thread on the Moyen program. It seems to be a very desirable size and my understanding is that there are not a lot of reputable breeders in the U.S. We've read some sad stories on the forum of alleged Moyens, so you must forgive our skepticism. No wonder you have waiting lists!


I'm jaded by the many irresponsible "moyen" breeders in the U.S. The breeder near me that I know best crosses standards to minis and doesn't health test the breeding stock. I know a couple of pups personally from this breeder, and a couple of others are on the forum. They have suffered because of their rough beginning.

Poodlepupsprincipal, I'm glad to hear that you are not one of the irresponsible moyen breeders, that you health test your dogs, and that you took the time to respond to this thread. I would also like to hear more about your breeding program if at some point you have the time! There are far too few responsible breeders of this size range in the U.S.

All the best,
Sophie Anne


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

Poodlepupsprincipal:

Thank you for your reply to all on this forum. I, for one, am always on the lookout for really responsible breeders, and it sounds like you are one of those.
Sometimes people that are looking for any breed dog, become a little (can I say "anal"?) and if the pup isn't a high enough price, there is something wrong or if they haven't bred for 50 years, they can't be trusted.
I am not saying that testing isn't important...it is, but having said that, no one breeder, I don't care who they are can guarantee a dog from never having a problem...either in personality, or health (cancer, etc). Many, many years ago, I bred maltese. And even though they were show dogs, in a litter there could be a clinker. Ya know, it is the same in human families.
I guess what I am getting at is that I have purchased many different breed dogs from "show homes", genetically tested, breeders that bred for generations, and received a "clinker". One darling puppy developed a tumor on her kidney and had both the tumor and kidney removed, and the pup was only 2. She is doing well today at 5 yr. old. This was not genetic, therefore the breeder did not stand behind the pup. I paid $1800 plus another $1500 for the surgery.
Then, I have rescued full blooded dogs from shelters that were wonderful.
A price, and not being "famous" is not a guarantee on the puppies.

So, it takes 'gossip' to either make or break a breeder. Just one unsatisfied customer, and all of a sudden the breeder is toast...no matter if everyone else is happy with their dog.
I again, am glad you posted and cleared all this misinformation up.


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## poodlepupsprincipal (Sep 20, 2015)

Will be more than glad to share more about my breeding program if others feel it will help them. I can't just start from where I am now without discussing how I got here. I will say it has been some trial and error and a process. It has taken several years to get to this point. I will not condemn others simply because they do not do things the way I have or are not as far down the road as I am. It has probably been around 15 years since I started breeding. When I have time, I can post a bit here and there about it, but won't be able to do it all right now.
As I reflect there are a few defining moments that have shaped my program more than anything else. 
1) Genetically testing all parents. I know this may invoke some passionate thoughts and comments, but one of my local friends is a breeder of labradoodles and goldendoodles. She genetically tests all her dogs and was the one responsible for leading me down that path. This decision was revolutionary. The best decision I have made. I think it has been maybe 7 or 8 years ago I made that decision?
2) Specializing in one or two colors, breed (only poodles!), size (at least a fairly narrow range on size). For my full time job I attended meetings where the group did a book study on, Good to Great by Jim Collins. He studied the most successful businesses and I was able to incorporate some of his findings into my breeding program. #1) The companies that stay or have become great often specialize in one thing. They are the best at one thing. Some companies that fell by the waist-side tried to diversify when they shouldn't. They became good at several things, but not great at any. Soar with your strengths! #2) They are responsive to the buyers/market and adjust as the needs and wants of the market.
Reds and apricots have always been my favorites and they were also the most in demand. Over the last few years I have shifted to where I now only have red and apricot adult dogs. I kept seeing a demand for large mini and moyen pups, but little to no market. I tended to like the larger size better anyway (as I used to have pretty much toy and small mini adults) and now all my adult dogs are miniature or moyen in size. I have had AKC champions in the past, but the most important thing to my buyers was to reduce the likelihood of genetic problems in their puppies/health guarantee and the disposition/temperament of the puppies. Honestly, they didn't care one way or the other about having champion bloodlines. Part of that could be because I do not typically sell to breeders even though if I did, I could double the price I am charging. I moved away from champion sired pups (but not necessarily champion bloodlines) and focused on these two qualities. Having eight children at home helped with the socialization and my children had responsibilities and were paid for these. From day one my children can handle a puppy. My daughter in-law is in labor tonight, so I will become a grandpa soon, so maybe the grandkids can pick up the slack on this as my own children get older!! =-) Honestly, the most frequent compliment I get from buyers is their puppy's personality/socialization. Many, if not most of my customers I get from referrals or repeat buyers.
I had also reached the point where I felt I was producing better puppies than I was able to buy from others, and really began to focus on keeping puppies that had the best personalities/dispositions. For example, among other things: not timid/shy, ability to get along with other dogs, children, adults, strangers, not excessively anxious/barky, confident, but not so strong willed/alpha, intelligent, etc
Okay, out of time for now. This is the broad overview of the road I have taken. I will discuss more specifics in coming posts, including specifically talking about moyens. 
Again, I want to conclude this one post by saying that I do not condemn those who do not do things as I do. Other people's ways may be better than mine. We need breeders who breed primarily for confirmation. They are invaluable and when i do buy from others it is a primary factor in my decision. I tend to shy away from back and forth disagreements, especially in forums like this. Often, those are counterproductive and both sides are set in the way they feel and feelings get hurt - just not worth it to me. I still have a lot to learn, and feel I am subpar on some parts of my program like marketing, quality and updating of website, picture quality of pups/dog (although I do have one of the better cell phone cameras, I still take them on my phone!) timely communication, etc


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