# Dalin Toy Poodle Breeder Lynn DeRosa Liddington Vindicated - proof She has ALWAYS tak



## Tiny Poodles

*Dalin Toy Poodle Breeder Lynn DeRosa Liddington Vindicated - proof She has AL...*

The following are copies of Court Transcripts from her trial that Lynn sent to me requesting that I share them with you.
I believe that these transcripts will demonstrate that the Dalin Poodles were in good and healthy condition when they were removed from Lynn's care, and that the horrific condition which rescue found them in when they were released 9 weeks later was a result of neglect during their lengthy time at the shelter.

They will further demonstrate that the conditions in her kennel environment were so good that they were left with nothing to debate about but a burned out lightbulb and some dust on top of an air conditioner.

Additionally Lynn informs me that Cindy Crawley, the admitted author of the scathing article from the PCA newsletter which implies that the dogs were actually in that horrific condition at the time that they were removed from Lynn's custody, was in fact in the audience at both trials and heard this testimony for herself, so infer from that what you will about Ms. Crawley's character, and in general the vicious, back-stabbing nature of relationships between members of the poodle fancy.

I still need to sort through, organize and copy for you what Lynn sent me, and will post more later tonight or tomorrow, but I think that this copy of the last two questions asked of the Prosecution's witness, the Veterinarian that examined the dogs on the day that they were taken from Lynn would be a fine place to begin!


----------



## Poodlerunner

Thanks for posting that. It's amazing how some people are the judge and jury without even ever meeting the person OR having been in their house. 

pr


----------



## patk

so essentially lynn derosa was convicted of a misdemeanor and fined for having dogs in excess of the number permitted by virginia law and those "excess" dogs were confiscated then taken to a "shelter" where they were not properly taken care of?


----------



## Tiny Poodles

patk said:


> so essentially lynn derosa was convicted of a misdemeanor and fined for having dogs in excess of the number permitted by virginia law and those "excess" dogs were confiscated then taken to a "shelter" where they were not properly taken care of?



I won't go into it because the fact is that she did have more dogs than the law allowed, but I will say that when she explained to me how it happened, a culmination of the weather being too hot for dogs who were supposed to fly out to go, retired dogs waiting for her rescue person to pick them up for "seniors for seniors" placement, owner take backs, etc, it was understandable how it happened - the dogs that were "hers" and not slated for new homes were actually well below the legal limit.
But most importantly, they ALL were healthy and well cared for, and that is why only the dogs that she had in her possession over the legal limit were confiscated, and she was indeed permitted to keep the remainder that day, and continues to do so presently!


----------



## patk

well, okay, since you've taken this on, that's what you'll want to demonstrate by the documentation.


----------



## Poodlerunner

Tiny Poodles said:


> I won't go into it because the fact is that she did have more dogs than the law allowed, but I will say that when she explained to me how it happened, a culmination of the weather being too hot for dogs who were supposed to fly out to go, retired dogs waiting for her rescue person to pick them up for "seniors for seniors" placement, owner take backs, etc, it was understandable how it happened - the dogs that were "hers" and not slated for new homes were actually well below the legal limit.
> But most importantly, they ALL were healthy and well cared for, and that is why only the dogs that she had in her possession over the legal limit were confiscated, and she was indeed permitted to keep the remainder that day, and continues to do so presently!


How many breeders have more dogs than their county allows? Seriously, probably most of them. I will not be anti breeder. I for one adore my beautiful well bred poodle. 

I did not want a rescue, a mutt or a short legged, dump-truck-headed byb's dog. Call me shallow but I'm in good company. 

pr


----------



## Tiny Poodles

*Dalin Toy Poodle Breeder Lynn DeRosa Liddington Vindicated - proof She has AL...*



Poodlerunner said:


> How many breeders have more dogs than their county allows? Seriously, probably most of them. I will not be anti breeder. I for one adore my beautiful well bred poodle.
> 
> I did not want a rescue, a mutt or a short legged, dump-truck-headed byb's dog. Call me shallow but I'm in good company.
> 
> pr



I understand that not everyone is supportive of the idea of a kennel breeder, but I happen to think that when done correctly, the dogs can be quite happy with their relationship with a dedicated breeder, and their peers/family group. And I believe that in a small breed such as Toy Poodles, that are going to have 1-3 puppies in a litter, if a breeder truly wants to have an impact and IMPROVE the breed - if they want to be the line that everyone wants in their poodle's pedigree, then yes they need to have a kennel to accommodate the necessary dogs.
And you know that I very much agree with you Poodlerunner - I truly admire the Poodle Breed - I pour my heart and soul into my dogs, and when it was time for me to get a new one, I wanted an outstanding representative of the breed, and I do believe that I VERY much got that in my Dalin Puppy!


----------



## Poodlerunner

Tiny Poodles said:


> I understand that not everyone is supportive of the idea of a kennel breeder, but I happen to think that when done correctly, the dogs can be quite happy with their relationship with a dedicated breeder, and their peers/family group. And I believe that in a small breed such as Toy Poodles, that are going to have 1-3 puppies in a litter, if a breeder truly wants to have an impact and IMPROVE the breed - if they want to be the line that everyone wants in their poodle's pedigree, then yes they need to have a kennel to accommodate the necessary dogs.
> And you know that I very much agree with you Poodlerunner - I truly admire the Poodle Breed - I pour my heart and soul into my dogs, and when it was time for me to get a new one, I wanted an outstanding representative of the breed, and I do believe that I VERY much got that in my Dalin Puppy!


Somewhere along the line, "kennel" became a dirty word. Back in the day of early breeders, they all had kennels and were proud of them. They were called "kennels" and they all had "kennel" names. TP, your Timi is absolutely stunning. Why do you think people fawn over her? 

pr


----------



## patk

in the end it's not whether the dog is housed in a kennel, it's the conditions in which it's kept and whether or not it is properly socialized. both of my lowchen came from breeders who used kennels - even though they did not have 50 dogs at once. my dogs were both wonderful companion animals as far as i was concerned, though they were as different in temperament as night and day. 

frankly, if lynn derosa was keeping her dogs in good conditions, then the person who wrote the article has opened herself up to a libel suit. but i'll be frank - i am more interested in those at pf who tried to do a hatchet job on tiny and were so willing to jump in and basically tell her she was guilty by association - my, such a fine sense of justice indeed! it should never have happened. and if tiny is proven right and lynn d. was not keeping her dogs in appalling conditions, i wonder if any will have the grace to come forward and apologize?


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Poodlerunner said:


> Somewhere along the line, "kennel" became a dirty word. Back in the day of early breeders, they all had kennels and were proud of them. They were called "kennels" and they all had "kennel" names. TP, your Timi is absolutely stunning. Why do you think people fawn over her?
> 
> 
> 
> pr



Aww, thank you for your sweet words about Timi  She, Teaka, and my first Dalin Dog Taylee have always made me very proud 
And yes, Lynn is "old school" - she has been at this since 1965, and she proudly calls herself Dalin Kennels!


----------



## MiniPoo

If Cindy Crawley's article is being proven false in court, shouldn't AKC print a retraction in their newsletter? The accusations against Dalin had the authority of a AKC publication. A lot of people who believe you don't support bad breeders in any way believed this article and condemned Dalin and by extension TP because she still supported Dalin. In this era of quick Internet communication, we don't want to wait for a slow court case before we form opinions about people. Maybe we should learn to give people the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## patk

minipoo, tp has said that according to lynn d. ms. crawley attended the court hearings and heard testimony for herself. i wouldn't be surprised if ms. crawley used the fact of having attended as a basis for "selling" her article to akc. but we will have to wait and see what tp presents to get a fuller picture. 

i don't expect the akc to back down, no matter what. ten years is a pretty heavy penalty. that means a bunch of folks committed themselves to judging lynn d. folks don't like to admit they screwed up that badly, even if the facts of the case show they overreacted. just my opinion, of course.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

patk said:


> in the end it's not whether the dog is housed in a kennel, it's the conditions in which it's kept and whether or not it is properly socialized. both of my lowchen came from breeders who used kennels - even though they did not have 50 dogs at once. my dogs were both wonderful companion animals as far as i was concerned, though they were as different in temperament as night and day.
> 
> frankly, if lynn derosa was keeping her dogs in good conditions, then the person who wrote the article has opened herself up to a libel suit. but i'll be frank - i am more interested in those at pf who tried to do a hatchet job on tiny and were so willing to jump in and basically tell her she was guilty by association - my, such a fine sense of justice indeed! it should never have happened. and if tiny is proven right and lynn d. was not keeping her dogs in appalling conditions, i wonder if any will have the grace to come forward and apologize?



Thank you Pat - as most here know, I could not have asked for a better socialized, well tempered dog than Timi - she was totally "bomb proof" from the day that I met her at almost 14 weeks old, so that in itself tells me that good things happen at Dalin Kennels. 
And as I have also said many times, Timi is my third incredible Dalin over the course of 15 years, and I have also referred many equally satisfied friends and acquaintances to Lynn over the years (not for any other reason but for the joy of connecting a caring dog parent with the poodle of their dreams).

And thank you for your empathy on how I was attacked here by some people simply for my friendship and support of Lynn. 
In my opinion it doesn't even matter that she has been proven innocent of neglecting her dogs - I will never understand how relating my positive experiences with her and doubting that she was the monster that she was being painted to be made them think me an evil person, but it is OK, this experience has also shown me that I have some truly kind and supportive friends on the forum that I have infinite appreciation for!

I do however look forward to seeing if any of Lynn's detractors that were so vocal in their condemnation of her will have the integrity to step up and say "I was wrong". Both here and on Facebook - since I have indeed been shut out of most of the Facebook poodle groups and cannot post the transcripts there, I would be very grateful if some of the people who participated in the smear campaign would have the integrity to post the transcripts for me - I would have newfound respect for them if they did so. I will be polite enough not to name them, but they know who they are, and they know that this is their opportunity to prove what kind of person they really are.

I will post more transcripts later today...


----------



## Tiny Poodles

MiniPoo said:


> If Cindy Crawley's article is being proven false in court, shouldn't AKC print a retraction in their newsletter? The accusations against Dalin had the authority of a AKC publication. A lot of people who believe you don't support bad breeders in any way believed this article and condemned Dalin and by extension TP because she still supported Dalin. In this era of quick Internet communication, we don't want to wait for a slow court case before we form opinions about people. Maybe we should learn to give people the benefit of the doubt.



Well, why would they print a retraction, when reportedly the person who wrote the article was present in the courtroom, heard the testimony for herself, and knew that what she wrote was false when she wrote it? Perhaps she felt that she was protected by the fact that she did not use Lynn's name or kennel name? I am not a lawyer, so I don't know, perhaps that is sufficient protection? But obviously since it was done with malicious intent, the court transcripts coming to light are not going to motivate them to "right their wrong" and print a retraction - it would take Lynn spending a truckload of money on lawyer's fees to make that happen, and I don't know if she is willing to spend yet another truckload on this issue!


----------



## Tiny Poodles

patk said:


> minipoo, tp has said that according to lynn d. ms. crawley attended the court hearings and heard testimony for herself. i wouldn't be surprised if ms. crawley used the fact of having attended as a basis for "selling" her article to akc. but we will have to wait and see what tp presents to get a fuller picture.
> 
> i don't expect the akc to back down, no matter what. ten years is a pretty heavy penalty. that means a bunch of folks committed themselves to judging lynn d. folks don't like to admit they screwed up that badly, even if the facts of the case show they overreacted. just my opinion, of course.



Yes, and you know Lynn did submit the thousands of pages of court transcripts to AKC to prove to them that the dogs were not confiscated for neglect or abuse, but simply because they were over the legal number that she had. But 
AKC is a private for profit enterprise - they don't have to justify themselves, they don't have to be fair - they don't even have to have read those documents.... If they want to stick to their rule of "you have dogs confiscated, you are out", they can - they don't have to listen to, and consider mitigating circumstances like a court of law would.


----------



## Carolinek

Appreciate you posting the transcript TP. I think that came out in the previous discussion, that a vet testified on her behalf. I would want to know when and where the vet saw the dogs and did she do an inspection of the entire kennel and all 90 of the dogs at the time of the alleged incident? Perhaps that is in there?

I know the previous discussion took a bad turn with mud slinging at TP, but I personally never saw her involvement with Dalin as a key factor. We all made decisions based on what facts we saw, and quite honestly, I'm still not convinced Lynn DeRosa is without blame based on this document. There is definitely something fishy about this, I don't know what it is, and it has nothing to do with TP- so please do not sling mud at me. My goal is to look at facts. None of this is personal against TP, but I still do not support Lynn DeRosa's breeding practices. And that certainly is my right.

Is it correct that she had 40 dogs removed- in addition to the 50 she was allowed to keep by law, bring the total to 90. Do I have my facts right? I'm pretty sure that's what the report said. Show Kennel or not, that's an incredible amount of dogs- that's more like keeping livestock. It certainly is way more than a few missed flights due to hot weather. 

And why is she releasing dogs to rescue? Why not place them herself where she can monitor their welfare? She certainly puts the time into selling puppies. On the same vein, why did her husband bring dogs to the local animal shelter? None of these actions are congruent with what I think a reputable breeder does. 

I'll continue to look at information as it appears, but I still think there is something very fishy with Dalin Kennels.

Edit: I also want to add that well meaning breeders can get overwhelmed and wind up in a bad place. This happened to one of my family members who should have downsized when she got older and didn't. I had to clean up the mess- it was terrible. She was not a bad person, but I think it's a pitfall breeders are up against.


----------



## patk

carolinek, as usual, you are the voice of reason. that being said, even though i have doubts personally and actually asked tp about the previous accusation when i myself was new to the board, i am not sure lynn d's past history is truly relevant to what has gone on here, especially vis-a-vis the akc. if it were, why wasn't she sanctioned then instead of being permitted to continue flying under akc colors? as i recall, the number of dogs was supposedly even greater and the descriptions of their condition made for queasy stomachs.

no question on this go around there were a lot of dogs - and obviously in violation of the legal limit in virginia. beyond that, i am waiting to see what tp says she can demonstrate is the other side of the story. it's certainly enough to give one pause if the rescue employees were also charged and subsequently convicted. we shall see.

ps: i continue to feel that one of the great ironies is that some of the loudest critics were among those who also loudly protested the new federal regulations putting limitations on the sale and shipping of pet animals (not just dogs). i won't say it's hypocritical - but it's close - to lament the practices of at least some large scale breeders but then totally oppose any attempt to control them.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Carolinek said:


> Appreciate you posting the transcript TP. I think that came out in the previous discussion, that a vet testified on her behalf. I would want to know when and where the vet saw the dogs and did she do an inspection of the entire kennel and all 90 of the dogs at the time of the alleged incident? Perhaps that is in there?
> 
> Correction, the transcript that I posted was not Lynn's Vet testifying on her behalf - Dr. Cunningham was the Vet that the State brought the dogs to on the day that they were confiscated (20 on the first day, and the remainder two days after that). It was the prosecutions witness Vet who said that the dogs had no indications of neglect or abuse!!!
> And no, I do not believe that the remaining dogs were examined by a Vet, other than her personal Vet - why would they be, when they saw it fit to leave them in her custody. And by the way, Lynn told me that they allowed her to choose the dogs that were to be taken - the only requirement being that they were intact females of breeding age - it had absolutely nothing to do with the condition of the dogs, because they were all in equally good condition!
> 
> 
> I know the previous discussion took a bad turn with mud slinging at TP, but I personally never saw her involvement with Dalin as a key factor. We all made decisions based on what facts we saw, and quite honestly, I'm still not convinced Lynn DeRosa is without blame based on this document. There is definitely something fishy about this, I don't know what it is, and it has nothing to do with TP- so please do not sling mud at me. My goal is to look at facts. None of this is personal against TP, but I still do not support Lynn DeRosa's breeding practices. And that certainly is my right.
> 
> Is it correct that she had 40 dogs removed- in addition to the 50 she was allowed to keep by law, bring the total to 90. Do I have my facts right? I'm pretty sure that's what the report said. Show Kennel or not, that's an incredible amount of dogs- that's more like keeping livestock. It certainly is way more than a few missed flights due to hot weather.
> 
> 
> Well thank you for recognizing that this has nothing personally to do with me. And I fully understand that not everyone likes the idea of kennel level breeders, but that is not what is what I am putting up for discussion here - I simply want to offer up facts that prove that The PCA article grossly misrepresented the environment of Lynn's kennel and the care that she gives to her dogs.
> 
> And why is she releasing dogs to rescue? Why not place them herself where she can monitor their welfare? She certainly puts the time into selling puppies. On the same vein, why did her husband bring dogs to the local animal shelter? None of these actions are congruent with what I think a reputable breeder does.
> 
> I may have misrepresented when I said "rescue" - Lynn does very much individually place retired or "take back" dogs herself - I have seen her do that several times in her Facebook group, and the happy families are still members of our group. But she also works with one individual (Lynn read me the court testimony of them over the phone, but did not send me a copy of it - but I can ask her to do so if you wish). This individual lines up and screens the "seniors for seniors" homes for her, and once screened, Lynn speaks to them on the phone to decide upon the specific dog for them. Then when several placements have been arranged, the Individual makes a lengthy drive and picks up the group of dogs and delivers them to their new homes. Lynn takes no money for the dogs and pays the individual $50 for gas money. That individual arrived to pick up ten dogs scheduled to be adopted on the morning of the raid, but the authorities prevented them from taking the dogs.
> 
> And you know, I never asked Lynn if the quote in that PETA hometown newspaper which said that her husband dropped puppies and elderly dogs off at the shelter in order to comply with the law and reduce their numbers was true, because it did not make any sense to me, as only intact dogs of breeding age would be subject to that law. I can ask her, but I suspect that this falls under the category of "don't believe everything that you read on the internet"!


----------



## Poodlerunner

patk said:


> ps: i continue to feel that one of the great ironies is that some of the loudest critics were among those who also loudly protested the new federal regulations putting limitations on the sale and shipping of pet animals (not just dogs). i won't say it's hypocritical - but it's close - to lament the practices of at least some large scale breeders but then totally oppose any attempt to control them.


Your ps lost me. Respectfully, what are you saying? Who are you talking about? too cryptic...

pr


----------



## lily cd re

Well I have watched all of this from the sidelines until now because I felt there were two sides to the story and also realized that if there were court proceedings in progress that the full story could not be told until those proceedings concluded. Clearly what has been revealed here is that the original story only was part of a larger story. "Sin in haste, repent in leisure." One should not judge or make decisions without all of the impartial evidence that actually exists having been laid on the table. 

We can be critical of how many dogs Lynn had. We can be unhappy about the style of having a large kennel rather than a small in home raising of dogs (but aren't some of those folks BYBs, no better IMO). We shouldn't condemn without the full story. Let's face it we live in a society where sensational, scandalous and salacious stories abound and are consumed voraciously without regard for their veracity. This story seems to be a sad symptom of our social desire for scandal and bad news.


----------



## patk

Poodlerunner said:


> Your ps lost me. Respectfully, what are you saying? Who are you talking about? too cryptic...
> 
> pr


i mentioned earlier that there is a huge thread at pf about the then-proposed dept of agriculture regs about breeding and shipping pets, being subject to inspections, etc. the akc and a lot of others got quite exercised over the issue, as did quite a few people at pf.


----------



## Carley's Mom

By law we are all allowed to do more harm to animals than anyone should be allowed to do. I would never buy from anyone that bred dogs on that level, I think it is the work of a greedy , non caring breeder and I have not changed my mind because of this new thread. That being said, everyone has the right to follow their own path in this world and I am not attacking anyone, nor am I, one bit sorry for anything I said and I will continue to say it, as long as we have free speech in this country.


----------



## InSizeToy

*Dalin*

I am so happy to see this news finally out. I have made frequent visits to Dalin since last March while I waited for my puppy. She was born and I traveled there almost weekly to watch the progress of her growth. I have never known a breeder to be so accomidating as Lynn. I changed my mind on the long awaited puppy and ended up with not one but two of her dogs. One is a rehomed Grand Champion, five years old. In the weekly trips, I never saw mistreated, matted or sick abused dogs. All of Lynns dogs absolutly adore her. This whole mess was absoutly terrible. When all of this slander began I tried to explain what I had seen on my many trips and were instantly dismissed and blocked from several web sites. So many rumors were made to look like the gospel on the internet. My heart goes out to Lynn and her wonderful dogs. I am a very proud owner of Dalin Toy Poodles and I pray that I get another before I am too old to have any more.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Carley's Mom said:


> By law we are all allowed to do more harm to animals than anyone should be allowed to do. I would never buy from anyone that bred dogs on that level, I think it is the work of a greedy , non caring breeder and I have not changed my mind because of this new thread. That being said, everyone has the right to follow their own path in this world and I am not attacking anyone, nor am I, one bit sorry for anything I said and I will continue to say it, as long as we have free speech in this country.



As I said, I began this thread to talk about the conditions of Lynn's dogs and kennels - I am not trying to change your mind about not liking kennel level breeders. I happen to disagree with you but will leave that discussion for another day, another thread.


----------



## Poodlerunner

patk said:


> i mentioned earlier that there is a huge thread at pf about the then-proposed dept of agriculture regs about breeding and shipping pets, being subject to inspections, etc. the akc and a lot of others got quite exercised over the issue, as did quite a few people at pf.


interesting.

pr


----------



## Poodlerunner

Carley's Mom said:


> By law we are all allowed to do more harm to animals than anyone should be allowed to do. I would never buy from anyone that bred dogs on that level, I think it is the work of a greedy , non caring breeder and I have not changed my mind because of this new thread. That being said, everyone has the right to follow their own path in this world and I am not attacking anyone, nor am I, one bit sorry for anything I said and I will continue to say it, as long as we have free speech in this country.


I, for one, very much respect your opinion and your right to express it 

pr


----------



## Cindy Crawley

MiniPoo said:


> If Cindy Crawley's article is being proven false in court, shouldn't AKC print a retraction in their newsletter? The accusations against Dalin had the authority of a AKC publication. A lot of people who believe you don't support bad breeders in any way believed this article and condemned Dalin and by extension TP because she still supported Dalin. In this era of quick Internet communication, we don't want to wait for a slow court case before we form opinions about people. Maybe we should learn to give people the benefit of the doubt.


Hello. I am Cindy Crawley. My article in the Poodle Papers was based on my first-hand witness of Karen Lynn Liddington's trial (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles). I welcome any questions or comments.
Cindy


----------



## Cindy Crawley

patk said:


> minipoo, tp has said that according to lynn d. ms. crawley attended the court hearings and heard testimony for herself. i wouldn't be surprised if ms. crawley used the fact of having attended as a basis for "selling" her article to akc. but we will have to wait and see what tp presents to get a fuller picture.
> 
> i don't expect the akc to back down, no matter what. ten years is a pretty heavy penalty. that means a bunch of folks committed themselves to judging lynn d. folks don't like to admit they screwed up that badly, even if the facts of the case show they overreacted. just my opinion, of course.


Pat - I did not "sell" my article to the AKC. My article, based on my first-hand witness at the Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn De Rosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) was printed in the Poodle Papers. 
Cindy Crawley


----------



## Cindy Crawley

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well, why would they print a retraction, when reportedly the person who wrote the article was present in the courtroom, heard the testimony for herself, and knew that what she wrote was false when she wrote it? Perhaps she felt that she was protected by the fact that she did not use Lynn's name or kennel name? I am not a lawyer, so I don't know, perhaps that is sufficient protection? But obviously since it was done with malicious intent, the court transcripts coming to light are not going to motivate them to "right their wrong" and print a retraction - it would take Lynn spending a truckload of money on lawyer's fees to make that happen, and I don't know if she is willing to spend yet another truckload on this issue!


Hello "Tiny Poodles."
I defy anyone to prove that ONE WORD that I wrote about the Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodle) situation was false. I attneded the trial and took very careful notes on what I heard and what I observed. Furthermore, I challenge you to answer with your REAL Name and not a pseudonym. 
Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## catsaqqara

> ps: i continue to feel that one of the great ironies is that some of the loudest critics were among those who also loudly protested the new federal regulations putting limitations on the sale and shipping of pet animals (not just dogs). i won't say it's hypocritical - but it's close - to lament the practices of at least some large scale breeders but then totally oppose any attempt to control them.


That federal regulation would cover any breeder that has 4 or more intact females. They would need to be usda licensed and conform to their regulations if they sell sight unseen. In order to conform to their regulations the dogs would need to be housed in quarters that have no absorbent material within them. (pillows, couches, carpets etc) That would mean the dogs cannot live in a home. As far as I have seen it does not limit the number of animals owned, bred or sold.

AWA Standards
"Interior Surfaces—The interior of a facility must be substantially impervious to moisture and be able to be easily cleaned and sanitized."

Most large scale breeders are already usda licensed, so this would have the most impact on breeders who keep their dogs inside their home with them.


----------



## patk

Cindy Crawley said:


> Pat - I did not "sell" my article to the AKC. My article, based on my first-hand witness at the Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn De Rosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) is there a word missing here? - were you at dalin kennels or at the trial? was printed in the Poodle Papers.
> Cindy Crawley


hello, cindy, by sell i did not mean for money and sorry i confused akc with poodle papers - though i believe your article is on the akc site? in any case, i meant getting approved for publication. writing about someone extensively and negatively and not naming the person hit me the wrong way; it came across as ethically questionable, but in this day and age, perhaps i have some very old-fashioned ideas.


----------



## Cindy Crawley

Tiny Poodles - another psuedonym.
You are making a mis-statement and that needs to be corrected. The article I wrote for the Poodle Papers WAS NOT a "gross misrepresentation of the DeRosa kennel." What rational person would think tht having 2-3 dogs in an 18x18x18 crate to be reasonable? On the day that the VA State police inspected the Dalin kennel, there were 148 Toy Poodles in 68 crates. This is a FACT and you can find it on the transcript you are touting. Do the math. That is 2+ dogs per crate. 
Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## Cindy Crawley

Tiny Poodles said:


> The following are copies of Court Transcripts from her trial that Lynn sent to me requesting that I share them with you.
> I believe that these transcripts will demonstrate that the Dalin Poodles were in good and healthy condition when they were removed from Lynn's care, and that the horrific condition which rescue found them in when they were released 9 weeks later was a result of neglect during their lengthy time at the shelter.
> 
> They will further demonstrate that the conditions in her kennel environment were so good that they were left with nothing to debate about but a burned out lightbulb and some dust on top of an air conditioner.
> 
> Additionally Lynn informs me that Cindy Crawley, the admitted author of the scathing article from the PCA newsletter which implies that the dogs were actually in that horrific condition at the time that they were removed from Lynn's custody, was in fact in the audience at both trials and heard this testimony for herself, so infer from that what you will about Ms. Crawley's character, and in general the vicious, back-stabbing nature of relationships between members of the poodle fancy.
> 
> I still need to sort through, organize and copy for you what Lynn sent me, and will post more later tonight or tomorrow, but I think that this copy of the last two questions asked of the Prosecution's witness, the Veterinarian that examined the dogs on the day that they were taken from Lynn would be a fine place to begin!
> View attachment 214969


Tiny Poodles - the only way to be credible with this "transcript" is to post the entire thing in its entirety. Posting individual lines or statements out of context is ludicrous. I attended the final trial. Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) was convicted on one count of animal cruelty by a jury of her peers. Does it really matter to the poor dogs crammed two to a small crate if it was one count or 500 counts? The point is people found her guilty. 
Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

patk said:


> i mentioned earlier that there is a huge thread at pf about the then-proposed dept of agriculture regs about breeding and shipping pets, being subject to inspections, etc. the akc and a lot of others got quite exercised over the issue, as did quite a few people at pf.


And they still are! Because this regulation will not stop large scale breeders and millers. Most of them are already licensed and got their pat on the back. This regulation is going to hurt small scale breeders in the US who have a few breeding bitches.

I never saw the hoopla regarding this subject before and only have one thing to say. *90 DOGS?!?!?! Holy crap!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Cindy Crawley

patk said:


> hello, cindy, by sell i did not mean for money and sorry i confused akc with poodle papers - though i believe your article is on the akc site? in any case, i meant getting approved for publication. writing about someone extensively and negatively and not naming the person hit me the wrong way; it came across as ethically questionable, but in this day and age, perhaps i have some very old-fashioned ideas.


PatK - I will have to check my notes, but I think when I wrote the article, the case had not ended. There were a lot of extensions and rescheduling before the case concluded. And so, I was not sure if using the name at that point, was ethical because she had not been convicted. Now it is a matter of public record. Karen Lynn (or Lynn Karen) Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) was convicted on one count of animal cruelty by a jury of her peers.
Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## patk

catsaqqara said:


> That federal regulation would cover any breeder that has 4 or more intact females. They would need to be usda licensed and conform to their regulations if they sell sight unseen. In order to conform to their regulations the dogs would need to be housed in quarters that have no absorbent material within them. (pillows, couches, carpets etc) That would mean the dogs cannot live in a home. As far as I have seen it does not limit the number of animals owned, bred or sold.
> 
> AWA Standards
> "Interior Surfaces—The interior of a facility must be substantially impervious to moisture and be able to be easily cleaned and sanitized."
> 
> Most large scale breeders are already usda licensed, so this would have the most impact on breeders who keep their dogs inside their home with them.


actually, all of this is addressed by various people in the other thread. but since you've raised it, i will say that a key issue for all sellers had to do with conditions imposed re those who ship animals rather than selling face to face. provisions were included to accommodate very small scale, hobby breeders who did not ship and kept a limited number of breeding dogs on their premises . i thought 5 was the number, but you say it's 4. so the thrust of the shipping regulations was directed at larger scale breeders, not all of whom are usda licensed, who have figured out internet retailing. as a breeder member pointed out in another thread, there is a breeder who currently has 12 adult dogs and 23 puppies from two litters in her house - apparently with no other caregiver involved. maybe it's just me, but that's enough dogs that i think there should be some kind of regulation. trying to exert a degree of control by imposing some limitations for those who ship makes sense from the federal point of view, since the usg has authority over interstate commerce. 

i suggest anyone who cares enough just go to the original thread to read all the arguments. my point remains that in all the argumentation against, i heard not one word of concern for the dogs like those in the example cited above. it was all about the breeders and their opposition to restriction.


----------



## MiniPoo

Cindy Crawley said:


> Tiny Poodles - the only way to be credible with this "transcript" is to post the entire thing in its entirety. Posting individual lines or statements out of context is ludicrous. I attended the final trial. Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) was convicted on one count of animal cruelty by a jury of her peers. Does it really matter to the poor dogs crammed two to a small crate if it was one count or 500 counts? The point is people found her guilty.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


Can you clarify for those of us who are not sure what all was said before? Was the count of animal cruelty because she had too many dogs? Was it because she let the dogs poop and pee on each other as was stated in the Poodle Papers?

Why did that vet at the trial say that he did not see any animal abuse? You summarized testimony at that trial and chose what elements of it to include in your article in Poodle Papers, yet now you say we have to have the whole transcript to actually know what happened. I would like to have more information if you would like to give it to us.

Also, as an aside, on this forum 99% of the people participating uses pseudonyms. On this forum, using a screen name is not something to feel guilty about. If you want to know Tiny Poodle's name (if you don't already), private post her.


----------



## patk

Cindy Crawley said:


> PatK - I will have to check my notes, but I think when I wrote the article, the case had not ended. There were a lot of extensions and rescheduling before the case concluded. And so, I was not sure if using the name at that point, was ethical because she had not been convicted. Now it is a matter of public record. Karen Lynn (or Lynn Karen) Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) was convicted on one count of animal cruelty by a jury of her peers.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


well if what you were writing was factual, whether she was convicted or not was not at issue. she might even have escaped conviction and the facts would still be the facts. so i don't get it. but as i say, i'm old-fashioned.


----------



## Cindy Crawley

MiniPoo said:


> Can you clarify for those of us who are not sure what all was said before? Was the count of animal cruelty because she had too many dogs? Was it because she let the dogs poop and pee on each other as was stated in the Poodle Papers?
> 
> Why did that vet at the trial say that he did not see any animal abuse? You summarized testimony at that trial and chose what elements of it to include in your article in Poodle Papers, yet now you say we have to have the whole transcript to actually know what happened. I would like to have more information if you would like to give it to us.
> 
> Also, as an aside, on this forum 99% of the people participating uses pseudonyms. On this forum, using a screen name is not something to feel guilty about. If you want to know Tiny Poodle's name (if you don't already), private post her.


MiniPoo - (I do not like pseudonyms and do not use one.) 
I do not know what was in the minds of the jurors since I was not privy to their deliberations, but I do not remember the point that Dalin had too many dogs being one of the charges listed against her. The charges (as I recall) were animal cruelty. And she was convicted on animal cruelty. I have pages and pages of hand-written notes. I have never had the transcript of the trial. Again, I ask does it matter what the charges were? Dalin had 148 toy Poodles in 68 eighteen by eighteen by eitgteen crates. Do the math. Think about that space. They could not lay down without laying on each other. The crates were stacked 3 high in places. In some places in the "holding" room, there were no barriers between the crates so boys lifted their legs and urinated on each other. The trays beneath the wire crates were filled with urine and feces and dripped down onto the dogs beneath. These are facts supported by real time photos taken by the VA State police when they went in and confiscated the dogs. 
Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## MiniPoo

Cindy Crawley said:


> MiniPoo - (I do not like pseudonyms and do not use one.)
> I do not know what was in the minds of the jurors since I was not privy to their deliberations, but I do not remember the point that Dalin had too many dogs being one of the charges listed against her. The charges (as I recall) were animal cruelty. And she was convicted on animal cruelty. I have pages and pages of hand-written notes. I have never had the transcript of the trial. Again, I ask does it matter what the charges were? Dalin had 148 toy Poodles in 68 eighteen by eighteen by eitgteen crates. Do the math. Think about that space. They could not lay down without laying on each other. The crates were stacked 3 high in places. In some places in the "holding" room, there were no barriers between the crates so boys lifted their legs and urinated on each other. The trays beneath the wire crates were filled with urine and feces and dripped down onto the dogs beneath. These are facts supported by real time photos taken by the VA State police when they went in and confiscated the dogs.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


What you say does indeed sound bad. I am surprised that Lynn had any happy puppy owners at all. I am also surprised that she was not convicted of all 500 counts.

Everyone agrees that she had far too many dogs. If the situation was as bad as you describe, why did they leave her the 50 maximum dogs allowed by law? Why didn't they take them all?


----------



## CharismaticMillie

MiniPoo said:


> What you say does indeed sound bad. I am surprised that Lynn had any happy puppy owners at all. I am also surprised that she was not convicted of all 500 counts.
> 
> Everyone agrees that she had far too many dogs. If the situation was as bad as you describe, why did they leave her the 50 maximum dogs allowed by law? Why didn't they take them all?


I think you would be absolutely amazed at the conditions that will even pass a USDA inspection.


----------



## Cindy Crawley

*The bottom line*



Tiny Poodles said:


> The following are copies of Court Transcripts from her trial that Lynn sent to me requesting that I share them with you.
> I believe that these transcripts will demonstrate that the Dalin Poodles were in good and healthy condition when they were removed from Lynn's care, and that the horrific condition which rescue found them in when they were released 9 weeks later was a result of neglect during their lengthy time at the shelter.
> 
> They will further demonstrate that the conditions in her kennel environment were so good that they were left with nothing to debate about but a burned out lightbulb and some dust on top of an air conditioner.
> 
> Additionally Lynn informs me that Cindy Crawley, the admitted author of the scathing article from the PCA newsletter which implies that the dogs were actually in that horrific condition at the time that they were removed from Lynn's custody, was in fact in the audience at both trials and heard this testimony for herself, so infer from that what you will about Ms. Crawley's character, and in general the vicious, back-stabbing nature of relationships between members of the poodle fancy.
> 
> I still need to sort through, organize and copy for you what Lynn sent me, and will post more later tonight or tomorrow, but I think that this copy of the last two questions asked of the Prosecution's witness, the Veterinarian that examined the dogs on the day that they were taken from Lynn would be a fine place to begin!
> View attachment 214969










As I have already stated, to post one page of the transcript of an 11+ hour trial is ludicrous. It would be like taking a page from a phone book and stating that everyone in the world is named "Smith." Ridiculous. The bottom line is what I have attached. Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) was convicted of animal cruelty by a jury of her peers. 
Do I take pleasure in this? No. I do not. I weep for those little dogs. And the many others who were before them and who are there still. Someone must stand witness for them. We did. The State of Virginia did. The people of Warsaw Virginia did. 
I have nothing more to say.
Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## patk

CharismaticMillie said:


> I think you would be absolutely amazed at the conditions that will even pass a USDA inspection.


actually, no, i don't think anyone who realizes that usda is really there to promote farming interests would be amazed. usda has had to play a bit of catch up in recent years with the growth of the consumer movement , but overall it remains protected by legislators from the farm/livestock industry.

state kennel inspections, however, are not governed by the usda. how effective they are depends on the jurisdiction - and maybe the force of public opinion.


----------



## Poodlerunner

Cindy Crawley said:


> Tiny Poodles - another psuedonym.
> You are making a mis-statement and that needs to be corrected. The article I wrote for the Poodle Papers WAS NOT a "gross misrepresentation of the DeRosa kennel." What rational person would think tht having 2-3 dogs in an 18x18x18 crate to be reasonable? On the day that the VA State police inspected the Dalin kennel, there were 148 Toy Poodles in 68 crates. This is a FACT and you can find it on the transcript you are touting. Do the math. That is 2+ dogs per crate.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


3x3 puppy play pens are pretty roomy. Certainly 2 toy dogs would be very comfortable. If you are against crating dogs, that is one thing but it is not a correct picture, in my opinion, to imagine that a 3x3 crate is not adequate room for 2 toy dogs. Most people's crates at home afford their dogs much less room than this. Were the crates stacked upon each other as someone asked? Were the dogs pooping and peeing on top of each other because that is gross. 

pr


----------



## Cindy Crawley

*Crate size*

These were 18inch x18inch x18 inch crates! Not 3 foot by 3 foot x-pens! Two to three dogs in 18 inches of space. I do not object to crating. I object to overcrowding. I object to dogs urinating and defecating on each other. I object to dogs not being able to lay down unless they are laying on another dog.


----------



## patk

Cindy Crawley said:


> View attachment 215121
> 
> As I have already stated, to post one page of the transcript of an 11+ hour trial is ludicrous. It would be like taking a page from a phone book and stating that everyone in the world is named "Smith." Ridiculous. The bottom line is what I have attached. Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) was convicted of animal cruelty by a jury of her peers.
> Do I take pleasure in this? No. I do not. I weep for those little dogs. And the many others who were before them and who are there still. Someone must stand witness for them. We did. The State of Virginia did. The people of Warsaw Virginia did.
> I have nothing more to say.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


well we do know there was a charge and conviction. what we don't know is conviction based on what. it's even more confusing that you are now saying 148 dogs were involved and your article says 90. or at least i'm getting confused by all of this. can't speak for others. oops, sorry, i first wrote 168 instead of 148; got that mixed up with the 68 crates mentioned.


----------



## Cindy Crawley

Charismatic Millie - I cannot answer your question. The law looks at thing very dispassionately. We asked the same question of the prosecutor. I know that the State Trooper would have taken all the dogs. But the law is the final word. 
Someone asked earlier if she was convicted because she had too many dogs. If you look at the record I posted, she was convicted by her peers of Animal Cruelty/Deprivation. Again, I am not sure but I think it was the cramming of more than one dog to a small crate that was so appalling to the lay people, and the condition of the dogs. The photographs were horrifying and undeniable. I have never been able to obtain decent copies of the photos submitted in evidence. I have a few very poor photocopies. The photos were taken by the VA State Trooper who went into the facility.
Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## MiniPoo

Cindy, I appreciate your posting the additional information above. 18 inch square cages do seem too small for 2-3 dogs. Again, and I am not just saying this, but why would Lynn not get convicted of more than 1 out of 500 counts with the photos being so appalling? I am just trying to understand.

Penny (aka MiniPoo)


----------



## poolann

As far as appeal to AKC, the rules are very clear. If you plead or are found guilty of any animal cruelty charge you are subject to the $2000 fine + 10 yr suspension.


----------



## elem8886

Cindy Crawley said:


> View attachment 215121
> 
> As I have already stated, to post one page of the transcript of an 11+ hour trial is ludicrous. It would be like taking a page from a phone book and stating that everyone in the world is named "Smith." Ridiculous. The bottom line is what I have attached. Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) was convicted of animal cruelty by a jury of her peers.
> Do I take pleasure in this? No. I do not. I weep for those little dogs. And the many others who were before them and who are there still. Someone must stand witness for them. We did. The State of Virginia did. The people of Warsaw Virginia did.
> I have nothing more to say.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


I'm confused by what you posted Cindy Crawley. The page you posted shows an incident date from 2012 and a final sentencing in August of 2013. Are you saying that this is the current charge and sentencing?

Also, as far as pseudonyms go, we don't really have any proof that you are who you say you are either. The internet is not always a safe place and anyone can make a profile with whatever name they want and pretend to be whoever they want. We can take your word that you are Cindy Crawley (and you may really be her) but why is that different than Tinypoodles (who some here do know by name)?

(My username is partially my initials, my name is Lauren. Does it somehow benefit others to know that?)


----------



## Cindy Crawley

Penny - I do not know why the jury only found for only the one charge. Without a transcript (which costs a good deal of money to get a copy) I cannot state with any certainty what the charges to the jury were. And as I previously stated, no one is privy to the jury's deliberations. If the person who claims to have the "transcript" of the trial is so inclined, she could tell anyone what the charges to the jury actually were. 
Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Cindy Crawley said:


> Hello. I am Cindy Crawley. My article in the Poodle Papers was based on my first-hand witness of Karen Lynn Liddington's trial (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles). I welcome any questions or comments.
> 
> Cindy



Question - why did you write "when seized the filthy matted, feces encrusted, urine scalded dogs...." How could you write that after you listened to the PROSECUTION'S Vet testify that of the dogs that she examined on the day that they were seized, the majority were freshly groomed, a few had some matting with feces stuck to the hair, but no worse than she sees in the average poodle from a single pet household in her practice. After listening to her further testify that all but one of the seized dogs had perfect body condition scores (one was slightly underweight and had a score of 2) not a single dog had a foot problem, a nail problem, a skin problem, ear problem, or any other medical condition that required medical treatment. Not a single Tick, one flea found on one dog that was not examined until the the third day after seizure and being confined in the shelter.

HOW COULD YOU imply that the dogs were in the condition in those pictures when they were taken from Lynn after having heard the prosecution's Vet testify that she saw no signs of neglect or abuse when she examined the dogs immediately after being taken from Lynn's care?! 

HOW COULD YOU blame Lynn for the condition that those dogs were in when you knew that it had not been her, but the VA Animal Shelters that had custody of them for 9 weeks before you and or your colleagues ever laid eyes upon them?! How could you do it when you sat at that trial and knew that there was not a shred of evidence to support your assertion, and in fact that she was not convicted of any such thing!

Yes, I am aware that the State of VA thought differently than animal experts everywhere and thought that her dogs should have more room in their SLEEPING crates. I understand that the State of Virginia does not recognize that compatible dogs who live together in a family or "pack" don't want to sleep in separate beds, and will always choose to curl up together in one bed. They also don't like the recommendation of many savvy dog trainers that dogs should not be given food and water in their crates overnight. I understand that the State of Virginia did not care about the fact that Lynn's dogs spent their waking hours 2-3 dogs in "pristine" runs that are bigger than my living room, and had all the food and water that they could ever need, were well nourished and hydrated, with no medical concerns, and convicted her on cruelty for the sleeping arrangements that many of us on the this forum would hardily approve of and in fact practice in our own homes! 


You know that her kennel is USDA inspected and certified. You know that her kennel has passed AKC inspections and Animal Control inspections. You Know that Animal Control saw no reason to remove the dogs that she had up to the legal limit. You know that her dogs were healthy and in good condition with no indications of neglect or abuse - you heard multiple Vets testify to that. 

So I ask you once again, how could you author that article and publish it accompanied by those photos, stating that the dogs were in that condition under Lynn's care when you knew it not to be true??


----------



## Cindy Crawley

elem8886 said:


> I'm confused by what you posted Cindy Crawley. The page you posted shows an incident date from 2012 and a final sentencing in August of 2013. Are you saying that this is the current charge and sentencing?
> 
> Also, as far as pseudonyms go, we don't really have any proof that you are who you say you are either. The internet is not always a safe place and anyone can make a profile with whatever name they want and pretend to be whoever they want. We can take your word that you are Cindy Crawley (and you may really be her) but why is that different than Tinypoodles (who some here do know by name)?
> 
> (My username is partially my initials, my name is Lauren. Does it somehow benefit others to know that?)


Lauren - the page I posted is a screen shot from the Virginia Judiciary website. It details all the charges and cases filed against Karen Lynn (or Lynn Karen) Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles). Ms. DeRosa was arrested in 2012. Her trial and conviction was 2013. It took over a year to bring the case to trial. For whatever reason. 
And you are most welcome to look me up anywhere online. I am the current President of Poodle Club of America Rescue. I had to register with this forum to be permitted to post here. I used my name and my email address. No pseudonyms. 
Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## Cindy Crawley

Tiny Poodles said:


> Question - why did you write "when seized the filthy matted, feces encrusted, urine scalded dogs...." How could you write that after you listened to the PROSECUTION'S Vet testify that of the dogs that she examined on the day that they were seized, the majority were freshly groomed, a few had some matting with feces stuck to the hair, but no worse than she sees in the average poodle from a single pet household in her practice. After listening to her further testify that all but one of the seized dogs had perfect body condition scores (one was slightly underweight and had a score of 2) not a single dog had a foot problem, a nail problem, a skin problem, ear problem, or any other medical condition that required medical treatment. Not a single Tick, one flea found on one dog that was not examined until the the third day after seizure and being confined in the shelter.
> 
> HOW COULD YOU imply that the dogs were in the condition in those pictures when they were taken from Lynn after having heard the prosecution's Vet testify that she saw no signs of neglect or abuse when she examined the dogs immediately after being taken from Lynn's care?!
> 
> HOW COULD YOU blame Lynn for the condition that those dogs were in when you knew that it had not been her, but the VA Animal Shelters that had custody of them for 9 weeks before you and or your colleagues ever laid eyes upon them?! How could you do it when you sat at that trial and knew that there was not a shred of evidence to support your assertion, and in fact that she was not convicted of any such thing!
> 
> Yes, I am aware that the State of VA thought differently than animal experts everywhere and thought that her dogs should have more room in their SLEEPING crates. I understand that the State of Virginia does not recognize that compatible dogs who live together in a family or "pack" don't want to sleep in separate beds, and will always choose to curl up together in one bed. They also don't like the recommendation of many savvy dog trainers that dogs should not be given food and water in their crates overnight. I understand that the State of Virginia did not care about the fact that Lynn's dogs spent their waking hours 2-3 dogs in "pristine" runs that are bigger than my living room, and had all the food and water that they could ever need, were well nourished and hydrated, with no medical concerns, and convicted her on cruelty for the sleeping arrangements that many of us on the this forum would hardily approve of and in fact practice in our own homes!
> 
> 
> You know that her kennel is USDA inspected and certified. You know that her kennel has passed AKC inspections and Animal Control inspections. You Know that Animal Control saw no reason to remove the dogs that she had up to the legal limit. You know that her dogs were healthy and in good condition with no indications of neglect or abuse - you heard multiple Vets testify to that.
> 
> So I ask you once again, how could you author that article and publish it accompanied by those photos, stating that the dogs were in that condition under Lynn's care when you knew it not to be true??


Tiny Poodles - whoever you are - you are seriously mistaken. You are taking one statement from an 11 hour trial out of context and trying to rewrite the case against Ms. DeRosa. Insofar as the photos go, I have stated for this record that most of the photos submitted into evidence in the trial were taken by the VA State Trooper who was present when the dogs were being removed form the Dalin Kennel "holding room." And I am sorry to disagree with you but two or three digs in 18 inch crates is not a happy pack situation by anyone's standards. Finally, I suggest you get out your trusty Webster's dictionary and/or thesaurus and look up the the word 'VINDICATED.' You will not find 'conviction' and 'vindication' in the same set of parameters. And Ms. DeRosa was CONVICTED.
Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

Cindy Crawley said:


> Charismatic Millie - I cannot answer your question. The law looks at thing very dispassionately. We asked the same question of the prosecutor. I know that the State Trooper would have taken all the dogs. But the law is the final word.
> Someone asked earlier if she was convicted because she had too many dogs. If you look at the record I posted, *she was convicted by her peers of Animal Cruelty/Deprivation. * Again, I am not sure but I think it was the cramming of more than one dog to a small crate that was so appalling to the lay people, and the condition of the dogs. The photographs were horrifying and undeniable. I have never been able to obtain decent copies of the photos submitted in evidence. I have a few very poor photocopies. *The photos were taken by the VA State Trooper who went into the facility.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue*


I don't have much to say at this time...it's already gone round and round. I said it on the other thread and I'll say it again. It's silly to argue facts. Opinions are something that is arguable. If people want to give the benefit of the doubt after the conviction has been made of record that's up to you. 

It was a fact on the other thread and it's a fact still. It doesn't matter to me whether it was on account of too many dogs, whether it was on account of starving dogs or dogs lying in feces or dogs with wounds or whatever else people do to dogs. The charge was animal cruelty and she was convicted by a jury of her peers. It happened. It's a fact. It's sickening and the angels are weeping. It makes my heart sick to think of those innocent animals.

I don't know how you do it Cindy, but my heart goes out to you and all the people who rescued these dogs. It must make a wound in your heart that you'll carry with you forever. The beauty in this miserable thing is that you are able to rescue many from these kinds of horrors. That must be what keeps you going.

Perhaps those who got dogs from her only saw what she wanted them to see. I don't know and I don't have to know. I don't understand it how anyone can continue to praise her in the midst of this. I'll never understand it. :sad:


----------



## Cindy Crawley

CharismaticMillie - it is people like you that are balms for our souls.  Rescue is hard enough without having to defend ourselves. And yes. We carry on because if not us, then who is there for the dogs? Thank you for your support. It means a great deal to me and to the many others like me.
Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## elem8886

Cindy Crawley said:


> Lauren - the page I posted is a screen shot from the Virginia Judiciary website. It details all the charges and cases filed against Karen Lynn (or Lynn Karen) Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles). Ms. DeRosa was arrested in 2012. Her trial and conviction was 2013. It took over a year to bring the case to trial. For whatever reason.
> And you are most welcome to look me up anywhere online. I am the current President of Poodle Club of America Rescue. I had to register with this forum to be permitted to post here. I used my name and my email address. No pseudonyms.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


Sorry, but I'm still confused - if the _trial and conviction_ were in 2013, what do you mean it took over a year to bring it to _trial_? 

Like I said before, yes I can look up Cindy Crawley and see that she is part of the PCA. On the internet, on a forum like this, there is no actual proof that you are who you say your are. I said my name is Lauren but you have no hard evidence - my name could be Laura, or Lisa, it could even be Elem, or Elle, or not actually related to my username. My main point was that usernames don't really mean much, even if they look like a real name. Why is it better to use a "real name" than a username?


----------



## Tiny Poodles

*Dalin Toy Poodle Breeder Lynn DeRosa Liddington Vindicated - proof She has AL...*



Cindy Crawley said:


> These were 18inch x18inch x18 inch crates! Not 3 foot by 3 foot x-pens! Two to three dogs in 18 inches of space. I do not object to crating. I object to overcrowding. I object to dogs urinating and defecating on each other. I object to dogs not being able to lay down unless they are laying on another dog.



I don't know the size of all of Lynn's crates, I only know that the size of the ones that I have seen in photos is 36" inches, and they do not look brand new by any means, but here again, you are being purposely misleading - Multiple people testified that Lynn only crates the dogs for SLEEPING, their waking hours are spent in LARGE runs and paddocks, which absolutely nobody questioned the suitability off!

How many times has it been advised on this forum that sleeping crates should be just big enough for a dog to stand up and turn around?
How many of you with multiple dogs have witnessed them all curl up into a tiny bed, when they have multiple comfy beds available to them?

Their choice, an identical empty bed right next to them, but if I had them in a crate, I guess that I would be guilty of Animal cruelty in the state of VA, huh?


----------



## Tiny Poodles

*Dalin Toy Poodle Breeder Lynn DeRosa Liddington Vindicated - proof She has AL...*



Cindy Crawley said:


> Charismatic Millie - I cannot answer your question. The law looks at thing very dispassionately. We asked the same question of the prosecutor. I know that the State Trooper would have taken all the dogs. But the law is the final word.
> 
> Someone asked earlier if she was convicted because she had too many dogs. If you look at the record I posted, she was convicted by her peers of Animal Cruelty/Deprivation. Again, I am not sure but I think it was the cramming of more than one dog to a small crate that was so appalling to the lay people, and the condition of the dogs. The photographs were horrifying and undeniable. I have never been able to obtain decent copies of the photos submitted in evidence. I have a few very poor photocopies. The photos were taken by the VA State Trooper who went into the facility.
> 
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue



So you are saying that the States witness, the Vet they took the dogs to on the day that they were seized lied under oath when she said that she saw no evidence of neglect or abuse?
Sorry, I do not believe you!


----------



## patk

elem8886 said:


> Sorry, but I'm still confused - if the _trial and conviction_ were in 2013, what do you mean it took over a year to bring it to _trial_?
> 
> Like I said before, yes I can look up Cindy Crawley and see that she is part of the PCA. On the internet, on a forum like this, there is no actual proof that you are who you say your are. I said my name is Lauren but you have no hard evidence - my name could be Laura, or Lisa, it could even be Elem, or Elle, or not actually related to my username. My main point was that usernames don't really mean much, even if they look like a real name. Why is it better to use a "real name" than a username?


i think you know you're dealing with a red herring when it comes to the "real name" issue. notice only tiny is being attacked? doesn't matter when she gets all those thank you's from everyone else; no question then about who they really are. we're back in personal attack mode.

i've also noticed she's chosen to ignore my questions about the discrepancy between the number of dalin dogs she said were involved in the article she wrote and number she's now citing. 148 dogs in 68 crates is 2.17 dogs per crate; you could round that up to 3 per crate, but not for each crate. 90 dogs in 68 crates is 1.3 dogs per crate, which would round up to 2 per crate, but not in every crate. no mention in any of this if some of the dogs were puppies, and yet we know they must have been, since we're talking about a large scale breeder. 

of course lynn derosa was convicted. what is at issue is, what exactly was she convicted of? the rap sheet did say animal abuse - deprivation. but deprivation of what? and why were the charges reduced to one count? charges usually get reduced when it's not possible to prove all of them or the jury throws out charges because it doesn't agree the defendant is guilty. or maybe if there's a plea bargain, which is unlikely for a misdemeanor. 

i'm not interested in defending lynn d. i'm interested in the issue of trust. normally the pca rep is not someone i would question. but now i kind of am. that is terrible.


----------



## Poodlerunner

Poodlebeguiled said:


> It was a fact on the other thread and it's a fact still. It doesn't matter to me whether it was on account of too many dogs, whether it was on account of starving dogs or dogs lying in feces or dogs with wounds or whatever else people do to dogs. The charge was animal cruelty and she was convicted by a jury of her peers. It happened. It's a fact. It's sickening and the angels are weeping. It makes my heart sick to think of those innocent animals.


Well it matters to me. In my book, Having too many dogs is way different than starving dogs. There are questions to be answered. How can a vet testify that the dogs in her kennel were in acceptable condition? I want to know the truth because, I like people as much as I like dogs. Also, if this was all perfectly true, wouldn't the person just be quiet about it? 

Cindy Crawly, since you were there, can you explain why the vet testified that the dogs were in good condition on the breeders premises?

pr


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Cindy Crawley said:


> Tiny Poodles - whoever you are - you are seriously mistaken. You are taking one statement from an 11 hour trial out of context and trying to rewrite the case against Ms. DeRosa. Insofar as the photos go, I have stated for this record that most of the photos submitted into evidence in the trial were taken by the VA State Trooper who was present when the dogs were being removed form the Dalin Kennel "holding room." And I am sorry to disagree with you but two or three digs in 18 inch crates is not a happy pack situation by anyone's standards. Finally, I suggest you get out your trusty Webster's dictionary and/or thesaurus and look up the the word 'VINDICATED.' You will not find 'conviction' and 'vindication' in the same set of parameters. And Ms. DeRosa was CONVICTED.
> 
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue



Out of context? That was the summation of pages and pages of questioning, how on earth could you discount that?

And yet again you are being purposely misleading - Again you neglect to mention that the crates in question, whatever size they were (and I have seen no evidence to substantiate your claim of 18") that they were SLEEPING CRATEs, NOT where the dogs spent their waking hours! 
You claim to have seen pictures of the dogs on the day that they were removed from Lynn's care, you give YOUR OPINION that you judged the dogs to be in poor condition, yet you ignore the fact that multiple vets testified that the dogs were entirely healthy, freshly groomed, or matted no more than the average pet poodle, 
And you continue to avoid admitting that you or your colleagues never laid eyes upon Lynn's dogs until after their 9 week shelter incarnation, and that the photos accompanying your article depicted the dogs after said shelter stay, and NOT when they were removed from Lynn's care.

How do you dare claim that Lynn's dogs were "filthy, urine scaled and matted with feces" when they were seized when YOU HEARD the State's Vet testify that there was not a single skin problem amongst any of the dogs seized?!


----------



## 2719

I am just curious why Poodle Forum Members are discussing information that they have no first hand knowledge about? Tiny Poodles started this thread with the statement that Lynn Derosa sent her transcripts so that Tiny Poodles could share them with the members. Why did Lynn Derosa not join this forum and post the information herself, and clear up any misconceptions? 

Cindy Crawley is also mentioned in Tiny Poodles post. Cindy Crawley stepped up and joined this forum to state the information that she was privy to. Would it not make more sense for the information to come from Lynn Derosa rather than from Tiny Poodles??

I can certainly understand the reasons why Tiny is defending Dalin...but why should she have to take up the fight when Lynn is the one with the information? Tiny is taking quite a bit of "heat" from her posting and it seems that Lynn, herself, should also step up and join this forum if she is wanting to Share Information.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

*Dalin Toy Poodle Breeder Lynn DeRosa Liddington Vindicated - proof She has AL...*



patk said:


> i think you know you're dealing with a red herring when it comes to the "real name" issue. notice only tiny is being attacked? doesn't matter when she gets all those thank you's from everyone else; no question then about who they really are. we're back in personal attack mode.
> 
> i've also noticed she's chosen to ignore my questions about the discrepancy between the number of dalin dogs she said were involved in the article she wrote and number she's now citing. 148 dogs in 68 crates is 2.17 dogs per crate; you could round that up to 3 per crate, but not for each crate. 90 dogs in 68 crates is 1.3 dogs per crate, which would round up to 2 per crate, but not in every crate. no mention in any of this if some of the dogs were puppies, and yet we know they must have been, since we're talking about a large scale breeder.
> 
> of course lynn derosa was convicted. what is at issue is, what exactly was she convicted of? the rap sheet did say animal abuse - deprivation. but deprivation of what? and why were the charges reduced to one count? charges usually get reduced when it's not possible to prove all of them or the jury throws out charges because it doesn't agree the defendant is guilty. or maybe if there's a plea bargain, which is unlikely for a misdemeanor.
> 
> i'm not interested in defending lynn d. i'm interested in the issue of trust. normally the pca rep is not someone i would question. but now i kind of am. that is terrible.



Thank you for you objective and insightful observations!
I am not certain, but I believe that the "deprivation" refers to her not giving them food and water while they slept. Despite the fact that except for one slightly underweight, but not emaciated dog, they were all assessed to be well nourished, and well hydrated, they felt it cruel to deprive them of food and water in the sleeping crates. 
That being the case, I guess that many of our forum member had best reasses their crate training methods or they too may be subject to animal cruelty charges....


----------



## Cindy Crawley

Poodlerunner said:


> Well it matters to me. In my book, Having too many dogs is way different than starving dogs. There are questions to be answered. How can a vet testify that the dogs in her kennel were in acceptable condition? I want to know the truth because, I like people as much as I like dogs. Also, if this was all perfectly true, wouldn't the person just be quiet about it?
> 
> Cindy Crawly, since you were there, can you explain why the vet testified that the dogs were in good condition on the breeders premises?
> 
> pr


Poodlerunner - I cannot tell you why that vet testified the way they did. I was not privy to any pretrial discussions with any of the witnesses. I did interview a few of the witnesses for the PP article.


----------



## Poodlerunner

patk said:


> i think you know you're dealing with a red herring when it comes to the "real name" issue. notice only tiny is being attacked? doesn't matter when she gets all those thank you's from everyone else; no question then about who they really are. we're back in personal attack mode.
> 
> i've also noticed she's chosen to ignore my questions about the discrepancy between the number of dalin dogs she said were involved in the article she wrote and number she's now citing. 148 dogs in 68 crates is 2.17 dogs per crate; you could round that up to 3 per crate, but not for each crate. 90 dogs in 68 crates is 1.3 dogs per crate, which would round up to 2 per crate, but not in every crate. no mention in any of this if some of the dogs were puppies, and yet we know they must have been, since we're talking about a large scale breeder.
> 
> of course lynn derosa was convicted. what is at issue is, what exactly was she convicted of? the rap sheet did say animal abuse - deprivation. but deprivation of what? and why were the charges reduced to one count? charges usually get reduced when it's not possible to prove all of them or the jury throws out charges because it doesn't agree the defendant is guilty. or maybe if there's a plea bargain, which is unlikely for a misdemeanor.
> 
> i'm not interested in defending lynn d. i'm interested in the issue of trust. normally the pca rep is not someone i would question. but now i kind of am. that is terrible.


I don't think it's terribe. This is America where we can question the president of the US! I don't know the defendant in this case either... Never met her, or heard her name before all this came up on PF. There is a lot at stake for this woman. People have been WRONGLY convicted of MURDER, thrown in jail, only to be exonerated years later. Is it that far fetched that the truth might have been manipulated in this case? Especially when there are questions that are brought up but never answered, namely, about the vet testifying as to the good conditions of the dogs when they were removed from the defendant's property. 

pr


----------



## Poodlerunner

Cindy Crawley said:


> Poodlerunner - I cannot tell you why that vet testified the way they did. I was not privy to any pretrial discussions with any of the witnesses. I did interview a few of the witnesses for the PP article.


That's a big question that needs to be answered IMO. 

pr


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Cindy Crawley said:


> Poodlerunner - I cannot tell you why that vet testified the way they did. I was not privy to any pretrial discussions with any of the witnesses. I did interview a few of the witnesses for the PP article.



So you are accusing the State's witness Dr. Cunningham of perjury, and would rather have us believe you than her sworn professional testimony?

What an outrageous assertion you are making!


----------



## Cindy Crawley

*Crates*



Tiny Poodles said:


> Thank you for you objective and insightful observations!
> I am not certain, but I believe that the "deprivation" refers to her not giving them food and water while they slept. Despite the fact that except for one slightly underweight, but not emaciated dog, they were all assessed to be well nourished, and well hydrated, they felt it cruel to deprive them of food and water in the sleeping crates.
> That being the case, I guess that many of our forum member had best reasses their crate training methods or they too may be subject to animal cruelty charges....


Since you asked. Here are 3 of the photos taken by VA State Trooper Creasy and entered into evidence in the Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) trial. These photos depict the so-called "holding room" on the Dalin Kennels property. As you can see from the photos, many of the crates contain more than one dog.
Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## Tiny Poodles

TLP said:


> I am just curious why Poodle Forum Members are discussing information that they have no first hand knowledge about? Tiny Poodles started this thread with the statement that Lynn Derosa sent her transcripts so that Tiny Poodles could share them with the members. Why did Lynn Derosa not join this forum and post the information herself, and clear up any misconceptions?
> 
> Cindy Crawley is also mentioned in Tiny Poodles post. Cindy Crawley stepped up and joined this forum to state the information that she was privy to. Would it not make more sense for the information to come from Lynn Derosa rather than from Tiny Poodles??
> 
> I can certainly understand the reasons why Tiny is defending Dalin...but why should she have to take up the fight when Lynn is the one with the information? Tiny is taking quite a bit of "heat" from her posting and it seems that Lynn, herself, should also step up and join this forum if she is wanting to Share Information.



Thank you for your concern - Lynn spends her days taking care of her poodles and is also packing for her big move. Since I am disabled and home a lot of the time, as a friend and admirer I offered to do this for her. I don't mind a little "heat" when I feel that someone has been mistreated....


----------



## patk

Cindy Crawley said:


> Since you asked. Here are 3 of the photos taken by VA State Trooper Creasy and entered into evidence in the Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) trial. These photos depict the so-called "holding room" on the Dalin Kennels property. As you can see from the photos, many of the crates contain more than one dog.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


thanks for that. any way for any of us to personally determine they are what you say they are?


----------



## plumcrazy

Cindy Crawley said:


> Hello "Tiny Poodles."
> I defy anyone to prove that ONE WORD that I wrote about the Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodle) situation was false. I attneded the trial and took very careful notes on what I heard and what I observed. Furthermore, I challenge you to answer with your REAL Name and not a pseudonym.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


I haven't yet read through this entire thread, but I felt I must respond to this particular post. Ms. Crawley, this is an Internet forum where it is commonplace to use screen names/alternate IDs to protect individual identities. As a matter of fact, it is against the rules to "name names" unless the individual does it themselves (such as me, telling you my name is Barb Plum - but if anyone else reveals my real name in a post, they could be sanctioned) Please do not "challenge" people to post their real names in such a public forum. It is not necessary and people should not be made to feel as it is. Thank you.

Barb Plum
Moderator


----------



## Tiny Poodles

patk said:


> thanks for that. any way for any of us to personally determine they are what you say they are?



How would she get ahold of the state's evidence pictures of the dog's sleeping crates? No pictures were included in the transcripts. I have sat in on a few trials in my time, and I have never seen them pass out copies of the evidence to the courtroom audience.


----------



## Carolinek

I do not think most posters on this thread are looking to spread gossip or sensationalize this story as has been suggested. Painting that picture trivializes the concern people here have for the welfare of the dogs, and also discourages open discourse.

Cynthia Crawley- thank you for coming forward.

TP- thank you for bravely defending what you think is right. I may not agree with you on this issue, but I respect your right to defend Lynn.

Whatever you believe here, We NEED to discuss situations like this, and I appreciate the ability to do this. Support of ethical breeding practices is an overriding objective of this forum- of course this case would be of interest to many people. I think for us not to discuss it would be terrible. Kind of like the quote "all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Our voices ensure that we are doing something, because discussions like this raise awareness and bring up very good questions about how to define ethical breeding.


----------



## patk

Tiny Poodles said:


> How would she get ahold of the state's evidence pictures of the dog's sleeping crates? No pictures were included in the transcripts. I have sat in on a few trials in my time, and I have never seen them pass out copies of the evidence to the courtroom audience.


i am not asking how. i just want to know if there is a way for any of us who is interested to verify those are the photos she says they are. once again, i know that seems terrible. but i think if we can get everyone to agree on facts, that will help. right now, people are mostly waving beliefs and allegations around - or at least that's the way i see it.


----------



## MiniPoo

Let me wave my belief around a little since I certainly don't have the facts at my fingertips.

First, I look at Timi, TP's marvelous poodle from Dalin that came to her in great physical and emotional health, a wonderful example of poodledom. I cannot think of Timi's breeder as a monster or a greeder. Timi was no rescued poodle from an abusive breeder.

But Lynn is human and she is getting older. When I think of the logistics of cleaning up and taking care of more than a hundred dogs (whatever that number is), I don't see how that can be done unless Lynn had enough staff helping her. I don't know if she had help. I do not believe (just my gut feeling) that Lynn was running a puppy mill, but with that many dogs she had the appearance of a puppy mill, and she did her reputation no favors by keeping that many dogs. Some of the criticism toward Dalin Poodles has merit just based on the number of dogs alone, but I still have a lot of doubts about the various abuse complaints against her.

I am hoping when she gets to her new home, Lynn will have learned from this experience and keep her operation within the bounds that she can handle.


----------



## PoodlePaws

I was just wondering about this today. Thank goodness the truth is finally out TP. 

And - Why SHOULD Lynn have to join this forum to defend herself? This is an Internet forum. All poodle people do not have to join this forum. 

And - why did Crowley feel the need to join this forum to further try to press the issue of abuse?? How did she even know we were discussing this here?? 

And - where the heck is that other person from the last thread on this subject that was so heck bent on damaging and slandering Dalin before she even had any of the facts? I can't even remember her name now. 

And - this is AMY. but you can address me as PoodlePaws. Human mom to tpoos Missy & Ash , and Tzu Gemma. 

TP - 1
CC - 0


----------



## Tiny Poodles

MiniPoo said:


> Let me wave my belief around a little since I certainly don't have the facts at my fingertips.
> 
> First, I look at Timi, TP's marvelous poodle from Dalin that came to her in great physical and emotional health, a wonderful example of poodledom. I cannot think of Timi's breeder as a monster or a greeder. Timi was no rescued poodle from an abusive breeder.
> 
> But Lynn is human and she is getting older. When I think of the logistics of cleaning up and taking care of more than a hundred dogs (whatever that number is), I don't see how that can be done unless Lynn had enough staff helping her. I don't know if she had help. I do not believe (just my gut feeling) that Lynn was running a puppy mill, but with that many dogs she had the appearance of a puppy mill, and she did her reputation no favors by keeping that many dogs. Some of the criticism toward Dalin Poodles has merit just based on the number of dogs alone, but I still have a lot of doubts about the various abuse complaints against her.
> 
> I am hoping when she gets to her new home, Lynn will have learned from this experience and keep her operation within the bounds that she can handle.



Thank you for your kind words about Timi! I do agree that a dog like her could not possibly arise from neglect or maltreatment. But remember that she is my third magnificent Dalin poodle - my almost 13 year old Dalin has yet to have a sick day in her life (knock wood) - seriously, she spit up about a year ago and she was terrified - it was the first time that it had ever happened to her lol!

I do think that we all agree that her numbers were too high (though yes she did/does have help with the dogs - if you go way back in Timi's original thread you will find photos of a helper holding Timi), and she is an incredibly energetic and hard working person, but I think that everyone, including she agrees that she should cut back a bit, plus she will be building a brand new kennel with all of the bells and whistles at her new home, so I don't think that there is a single thing to worry about for her dogs. Over her lifetime she has made an incredible contribution to the poodle breed which cannot be denied by anyone, and I hope that she continues to do so for many years to come. I certainly want another one like Timi someday (or dare I say even better - you never know, because Lynn is never satisfied, she is always looking to do even better), and I don't know of another breeder who could give me anything that even comes close to as magnificent as my Timi 

Sorry that I got so caught up in the discussion that I did not have time to go through and post any more transcripts - hopefully tomorrow!


----------



## Carley's Mom

If it looks like a puppy mill, smells like a puppy mill and is bringing in the cash of a puppy mill....IT'S A PUPPY MILL ! And I don't believe for a minute that anyone has 90 dogs running around free on their carpets.... these kennels were warehouses for helpless poodles, they were not SLEEPING CRATES ! GROWN DOGS DON'T POOP AND PEE on each other at night when they are let out each morning. 

I tried, to keep my mouth shut... I really did.


----------



## Carolinek

I too wondered about the vet's testimony. However, the jury heard all the evidence, including that, and still convicted her of animal cruelty. There must have been other evidence that led them to that decision. Was it a wrong conviction? We have no way of knowing that.

The pictures presented from the State Police may be part of why she was convicted. They are disturbing. There definitely was overcrowding, and if these are the sleeping crates, these dogs are sleeping on wire grids. And I can see how excrement could run down the sides. Verifying the source would be helpful, if it can be done. 

The shelter may not have taken proper care of the seized dogs- that I can certainly entertain knowing how overburdened the shelter system is. They may have been in worse condition after their stay in the shelter. But the reason they wound up in the shelter in the first place was from a blatant disregard for both the law and the welfare of the animals, which brings us back to the integrity of the breeder. 

This is a link to the Animal Cruelty Law in Va. You can scroll down to the count she was convicted of (3.2 6570). It defines what animal cruelty is. 

https://www.animallaw.info/statute/va-cruelty-consolidated-cruelty-statutes

If you're mildly obsessive like I am- LOL- you can also look at the requirements for commercial breeders. They can have 50 dogs over the age of a year- no restriction on how many dogs under a year. That might account for the discrepancy in numbers, and there may have been 148 dogs in the premises, with dogs under a year accounting for the difference. Only dogs over a year"counted" for the seizure. I'm just speculating, but the law is pretty loose on numbers. In general, it is hard to convict people of animal cruelty, and the fact that it's a misdemeanor is in itself a crime.

I do believe a healthy, well socialized pet can come out of a high volume kennel, particularly if the resources at the kennel are funneled toward protecting the product, or the puppy. Supporting the ongoing practices of a large kennel is an individual decision, and another story. By law, they can operate, and the law provides very minimal protection to the breeding dogs. I don't want a puppy from that environment, but that's me.


----------



## InSizeToy

Ms Crawley.....Lynn's name is Lynn Karen Liddington, not Karen Lynn Liddington.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

I have just recently joined this fracas, and really do not have much to say other than I cannot fathom anyone having 90-163 dogs on one's property regardless of the circumstances. There are only 24 hours in a day and realistically 16 of them awake. How can that many dogs be loved, groomed and properly cared for in 16 hours? And those photos of them in crates jammed in, and piled on top of one another...reminds me of chickens on commercial farming operations. THAT is no way for a chicken to live, so is certainly no life for a dog. Are there REALLY people ok with this? Breaks my heart!!!!!


----------



## InSizeToy

This is how they sleep every night. They look so happy and healthy! Of course they were ready to be turned out as this "raid" happened in the morning before Lynn could get them fed, watered and into their roomy runs. Funny how no word about how the dog that DIED during the "raid" from being kept in a hot metal dog crate in the sun on a August day. This was told to me by Lynn.


----------



## fjm

I too have stayed away from this - I do not know what the rules are in the US, or how bad things need to be for there to be even an attempt at prosecuting. But the numbers do horrify me - allowing the most minimal average time of less than 60 minutes a day for feeding, cleaning out crates and runs, grooming, health checking and individual play for each dog - it would need the equivalent of at least 15 full time staff to care for 90 dogs, and 20 to care for 130. Reckoning that many of the dogs would be bitches requiring far more care through pregnancy and whelping, and that the puppies would then need dedicated care, I simply cannot see how the dogs could receive adequate and appropriate care unless staffing levels were far higher than anyone has yet indicated.


----------



## InSizeToy

Carley's Mom said:


> If it looks like a puppy mill, smells like a puppy mill and is bringing in the cash of a puppy mill....IT'S A PUPPY MILL ! And I don't believe for a minute that anyone has 90 dogs running around free on their carpets.... these kennels were warehouses for helpless poodles, they were not SLEEPING CRATES ! GROWN DOGS DON'T POOP AND PEE on each other at night when they are let out each morning.
> 
> I tried, to keep my mouth shut... I really did.


Carleys Mom, have you been there? Have you ever met Lynn and talked to her in person? Just wondering because I have and I do go there quite often over the past year. Who would not want a toy poodle from Lynn DeRosa Liddington? Her dogs are exquisite. Her dogs are loved. She is proud of her dogs, she knows the personality and lineage of every dog she has. I have seen her property inside and out. I have heard her heartfelt story of this whole mess. There are no angels crying for her dogs when they are under her care as someone stated in this thread. She is not this cold hearted puppy mill that your words describe her to be. I am not an eloquent writer or speaker but as a person that HAS been there, I can not sit back and read all of this slander. And yes I also have a screen name as the last time I used my real name I was also listed as a animal abuser because of association with Lynn. It is really cyber bullying as my name is now associated with these twisted opinions of haters.


----------



## 2719

TLP said:


> I am just curious why Poodle Forum Members are discussing information that they have no first hand knowledge about? Tiny Poodles started this thread with the statement that Lynn Derosa sent her transcripts so that Tiny Poodles could share them with the members. Why did Lynn Derosa not join this forum and post the information herself, and clear up any misconceptions?
> 
> Cindy Crawley is also mentioned in Tiny Poodles post. Cindy Crawley stepped up and joined this forum to state the information that she was privy to. Would it not make more sense for the information to come from Lynn Derosa rather than from Tiny Poodles??
> 
> I can certainly understand the reasons why Tiny is defending Dalin...but why should she have to take up the fight when Lynn is the one with the information? Tiny is taking quite a bit of "heat" from her posting and it seems that Lynn, herself, should also step up and join this forum if she is wanting to Share Information.





PoodlePaws said:


> I was just wondering about this today. Thank goodness the truth is finally out TP.
> 
> *And - Why SHOULD Lynn have to join this forum to defend herself? This is an Internet forum. All poodle people do not have to join this forum. *
> 
> And - why did Crowley feel the need to join this forum to further try to press the issue of abuse?? How did she even know we were discussing this here??
> 
> And - where the heck is that other person from the last thread on this subject that was so heck bent on damaging and slandering Dalin before she even had any of the facts? I can't even remember her name now.
> 
> And - this is AMY. but you can address me as PoodlePaws. Human mom to tpoos Missy & Ash , and Tzu Gemma.
> 
> TP - 1
> CC - 0





Tiny Poodles said:


> Thank you for your concern - Lynn spends her days taking care of her poodles and is also packing for her big move. Since I am disabled and home a lot of the time, as a friend and admirer I offered to do this for her. I don't mind a little "heat" when I feel that someone has been mistreated....


Lynn DeRosa does not need to join this forum to defend herself. * I did not say that.* I said that Lynn sent Tiny poodles to this forum to share information. But Lynn herself has the INFORMATION. FIRST HAND. Not Tiny...Not other forum members who are surmising the situation and making statements and accusations about what did or did not occur. 

And if she has time to send Tiny information and impart Tiny with details then she has time to clear up and recount her knowledge just as easily here.


----------



## lily cd re

Carolinek I wasn't suggesting that these issues of style of kennel and potential issues of how dogs are husbanded, what we each think is adequate care and the like should not be discussed. I was referring to the other thread where there were lots of accusations made with little or no apparent evidence that could be verified. Personal opinion based on things overheard or read online shouldn't be sufficient to convict or to vindicate. I doubt you would accept a student's argument that s/he had read something online as evidence of its veracity anymore than I would. When TP started this thread she offered a document with certain evidence highlighted. It is up to each of us to decide whether to accept that evidence or not. 

Ms. Crawley offered photographs that she says were taken by a Virginia State Trooper. They may have been or they may not have been. She has been asked for a way to provide evidence that the photos are what she says they are. Again it is up to each of us to decide how to view that evidence. I for one would like to see a direct link to those photographs that would allow me to verify that they were taken when and where they are alleged to have been taken. I find those pictures rather more than a little unsettling and find it hard to believe that if they were shown in court that there would have been only one charge of which Lynn would have been found guilty.

I think I have said this elsewhere, but I would remind everyone here that we take a leap of faith when we put stock in a person being who or what they claim to be in an online setting. You all believe that I am a college professor, part time dog trainer and that I have earned the titles with my dogs I claim to have earned. With the exception of some PF members whom I have met in person none of you really has evidence of any of that, but you have chosen to accept it. I am not saying that there is anyone here who is not who they say they are, but I personally will choose to evaluate my feelings about what people are saying based on my experience of them. There are some involved in this discussion who I feel I know mildly to moderately well and others about whom I know very little. It will take time to sort though all of this, but I think we should all be seeking verifiable evidence rather than forming opinions based on third hand reporting and here say. Things have changed enough that now there seems to be a channel for receiving that evidence openly.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

Lily cd re - I can promise you that Cindy Crawley is who she says she is. I spoke with her personally outside of this forum about this conversation.


----------



## lily cd re

I didn't mean that I don't believe she is who she says she is. I too have had some outside conversations regarding this issue and I have to lay my opinion with where I have seen the most verified evidence from. 

My analogy would be when a student complains about their instructor. I usually initially try to think that the truth is a shade of gray in between what the student is saying and what the instructor says about what happened, however if the instructor is a peer whom I have known for a long time my feelings are probably shaded towards what the instructor is saying if my experience with them is reasonable just because of how long I have know the instructor as opposed to the student. On the other hand we have a couple of adjuncts who remain adjuncts because they are problematic people. My opinion will swing based on experience and I don't think I am unique in that. It is basic human nature.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

TLP said:


> Lynn DeRosa does not need to join this forum to defend herself. * I did not say that.* I said that Lynn sent Tiny poodles to this forum to share information. But Lynn herself has the INFORMATION. FIRST HAND. Not Tiny...Not other forum members who are surmising the situation and making statements and accusations about what did or did not occur.
> 
> 
> 
> And if she has time to send Tiny information and impart Tiny with details then she has time to clear up and recount her knowledge just as easily here.



Not really, she talks to me on speaker phone whilst she is working with her dogs - wasting time like I did yesterday on the computer is not a luxury that she has.


----------



## Poodlerunner

Tiny Poodles said:


> How would she get ahold of the state's evidence pictures of the dog's sleeping crates? No pictures were included in the transcripts. I have sat in on a few trials in my time, and I have never seen them pass out copies of the evidence to the courtroom audience.



TP, ask Lynn about the photos. 

pr


----------



## Carley's Mom

insizetoy, I have not ever been there. If I had , she would have been reported much sooner. I don't have to go there, to see that she was in way over her head . She has been found guilty . It is shameful what is allowed to be done to poor animals and stay within the law, so for her to be found guilty is enough for me to know it was really bad. I don't understand why you and others that seem to want a "tiny" poodle over anything else can agree that this is okay. I stand by my comments , I want more for those poor dogs. 

Does anyone know what happened to the dogs in question? I would love to know that they are now in homes and loved.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

InSizeToy said:


> Carleys Mom, have you been there? Have you ever met Lynn and talked to her in person? Just wondering because I have and I do go there quite often over the past year. Who would not want a toy poodle from Lynn DeRosa Liddington? Her dogs are exquisite. Her dogs are loved. She is proud of her dogs, she knows the personality and lineage of every dog she has. I have seen her property inside and out. I have heard her heartfelt story of this whole mess. There are no angels crying for her dogs when they are under her care as someone stated in this thread. She is not this cold hearted puppy mill that your words describe her to be. I am not an eloquent writer or speaker but as a person that HAS been there, I can not sit back and read all of this slander. And yes I also have a screen name as the last time I used my real name I was also listed as a animal abuser because of association with Lynn. It is really cyber bullying as my name is now associated with these twisted opinions of haters.



The only Person in this entire thread who has actually visited Lynn's property inside and out multiple times - her impressions and opinions count for more than all the rest of us "imagineers" rolled up together!!


----------



## Poodlerunner

MiniPoo said:


> Let me wave my belief around a little since I certainly don't have the facts at my fingertips.
> 
> First, I look at Timi, TP's marvelous poodle from Dalin that came to her in great physical and emotional health, a wonderful example of poodledom. I cannot think of Timi's breeder as a monster or a greeder. Timi was no rescued poodle from an abusive breeder.
> 
> But Lynn is human and she is getting older. When I think of the logistics of cleaning up and taking care of more than a hundred dogs (whatever that number is), I don't see how that can be done unless Lynn had enough staff helping her. I don't know if she had help. I do not believe (just my gut feeling) that Lynn was running a puppy mill, but with that many dogs she had the appearance of a puppy mill, and she did her reputation no favors by keeping that many dogs. Some of the criticism toward Dalin Poodles has merit just based on the number of dogs alone, but I still have a lot of doubts about the various abuse complaints against her.
> 
> I am hoping when she gets to her new home, Lynn will have learned from this experience and keep her operation within the bounds that she can handle.


Perfectly put. From the evidence presented, it does seem like she was trying to keep too many dogs. Why not have compassion for her and help her out? It seems like people would rather spread lies about her. Shame!

Those photos do not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling inside but I also do not see dogs defecating on each other (see the pans?) They also look groomed, with shaved faces even. And they were not cowering in the corners of their crates. TP also says that is only where they slept, not how they spent their lives. 

pr


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Carley's Mom said:


> insizetoy, I have not ever been there. If I had , she would have been reported much sooner. I don't have to go there, to see that she was in way over her head . She has been found guilty . It is shameful what is allowed to be done to poor animals and stay within the law, so for her to be found guilty is enough for me to know it was really bad. I don't understand why you and others that seem to want a "tiny" poodle over anything else can agree that this is okay. I stand by my comments , I want more for those poor dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what happened to the dogs in question? I would love to know that they are now in homes and loved.



Cindy can probably tell you how they are doing, except for the one that they cooked to death in a metal box in Lynn's driveway, and except for the one that dropped dead during it's shelter incarceration, and except for the ones that Cindy's cohorts couldn't deal with after their shelter incarceration, and immediately put down. 
Fortunately when the shelter let some of Lynn's dogs loose in the woods and couldn't catch one of them, they called Lynn to the spot where the dog was last seen, and the baby ran right over as soon as she heard her Mom calling for her.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

lily cd re said:


> I didn't mean that I don't believe she is who she says she is. I too have had some outside conversations regarding this issue and I have to lay my opinion with where I have seen the most verified evidence from.
> 
> My analogy would be when a student complains about their instructor. I usually initially try to think that the truth is a shade of gray in between what the student is saying and what the instructor says about what happened, however if the instructor is a peer whom I have known for a long time my feelings are probably shaded towards what the instructor is saying if my experience with them is reasonable just because of how long I have know the instructor as opposed to the student. On the other hand we have a couple of adjuncts who remain adjuncts because they are problematic people. My opinion will swing based on experience and I don't think I am unique in that. It is basic human nature.


When a breeder who has a long standing reputation for being a show mill with an excessive amount of dogs at best is convicted of animal cruelty, it seems quite (to be blunt "ass backwards" is what comes to mind!) to me to to weigh the opinion of a few clearly established followers (and there are *always* a dedicated following) over the decision of the court, which found her guilty.


----------



## InSizeToy

Carley's Mom said:


> insizetoy, I have not ever been there. If I had , she would have been reported much sooner. I don't have to go there, to see that she was in way over her head . She has been found guilty . It is shameful what is allowed to be done to poor animals and stay within the law, so for her to be found guilty is enough for me to know it was really bad. I don't understand why you and others that seem to want a "tiny" poodle over anything else can agree that this is okay. I stand by my comments , I want more for those poor dogs.
> 
> Does anyone know what happened to the dogs in question? I would love to know that they are now in homes and loved.


If you notice my name is In Size Toy Poodle, I am not looking for a "tiny". I think enough said that you have never been there.


----------



## Poodlerunner

Tiny Poodles said:


> The only Person in this entire thread who has actually visited Lynn's property inside and out multiple times - her impressions and opinions count for more than all the rest of us "imagineers" rolled up together!!


Well then that person can tell us if the photos presented accurately depict how her dog's were kept on a regular basis. 

pr


----------



## Poodlerunner

Such a disheartening discussion. I don't get it. I hope none of y'all eat meat or feed it to your dogs.

pr


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Poodlerunner said:


> Such a disheartening discussion. I don't get it. I hope none of y'all eat meat or feed it to your dogs.
> 
> pr


Is it ok with anyone here that dogs be treated like a commodity? And live like farm animals on a commercial operation? The idea of this makes my stomach turn. I eat meat, and so do my dogs. Most of it bought from farmers who rear their animals on a small farm where they are not penned up squashed against or on top of one another, and are fed and cared for allowing the animals some sense of dignity right up until they meet their end, which is also done humanely. I just find it difficult to comprehend that anyone, but particularly pet owners, think it is ok for anyone to have such a nauseating number of dogs, or that it is ok to see them jammed into crates like that. Seriously????????


----------



## 2719

InSizeToy said:


> This is how they sleep every night. They look so happy and healthy! Of course they were ready to be turned out as this "raid" happened in the morning before Lynn could get them fed, watered and into their roomy runs. Funny how no word about how the dog that DIED during the "raid" from being kept in a hot metal dog crate in the sun on a August day. This was told to me by Lynn.


Which is hearsay. You did not witness it. Lynn did (or says she did).

You visited and saw every part of her set up? I have looked at her place on google earth. It is a large property. Generally when I have puppy buyers to my place I do not give a tour of my whole (regretably small house). But then again all my dogs are in my house with me all the time. They are my beloved pets (who also happen to have show and performance titles).

I liken your recounting of Lynn's dogs being let out for the day into their roomy runs as letting the cows out to pasture from the barn at night. Sounds terrible. But that is your account...and again....the person who knows is very silent on the whole discussion.


----------



## Eclipse

How some here can condone keeping 90 dogs, (and it seems quite possibly many, many more if the count of 148 posted by Ms. Cawley is accurate) and are proud to have obtained your dog from such a "kennel" astounds me. Size of the dogs, at some point has nothing to do with it. Yes, of course, it would be different if there were 90 or 148 Standards, but really, arguments such as needing that many dogs to produce champions since the litters are smaller are really ridiculous. If that is the case she is "improving" the breed at the cost of the quality of life of the rest of her dogs. You say she knows the lineage and personality of every dog? Every one of the 90 or 148? She may know the lineage, but personalities? If we go with the low amount of 90 and she were to spend just 5 minutes a day interacting individually with each of the 90 dogs to stay abreast of their "personalities" that is 7.5 hours a day. 90 x 5 = 450, 450 minutes / 60 minutes = 7.5 hours. I can't imagine she spends that much time every day (little enough time as it is individually per dog , by the way) with her dogs. How much other time is spent feeding, grooming, etc. Are we to believe she spends all her waking hours every day just tending to these dogs? Where would she find the time to eat, shop for food, show her dogs as part of improving the breed? How does she find time to care for pregnant bitches, whelp litters and socialize puppies? 

To the poster that has been to her house frequently as you say, does she currently have full time kennel help? if so, how many people? How much time do you spend with your 2 Dalin dogs? Do you spend only 5 minutes a day with each? Or do you believe they deserve much more than that? Looking at her kennel another way, would you happily leave your dogs there for boarding if they are kept as the dogs in the pictures indicate? Even if, and I find it a big if, that is only the way she keeps them overnight? Stacked 3 high next to crates with no partitions between them so perhaps your dogs could be urinated or defecated on by a neighbor and spend the night that way? Sleeping on wire racks with no bedding for comfort? Sorry, but when I was getting my girls I wouldn't have even considered working with a breeder that had 30 standards (sort of like 90 toys) and was breeding multiple litters a year and I sure as heck wouldn't board my dogs in an environment such as the Dalin pictures showed. 

Now, I don't know this woman from Dalin, or know of her at all. And certainly, she is under no obligation to come out and defend herself or respond to questions on a public forum. But you would think if she was innocent of these charges and her dogs were not kept in such a manner she would want to provide evidence of same and defend her name and reputation as opposed to having others be a mouthpiece on her behalf, especially since Ms. Cawley, who I also have no knowledge of, is here giving one side of the story. The excuse that she is relaying information on a speakerphone while taking care of her dogs is just flimsy. If she has a defense and can prove PCA rescue wrong, then I would think she would want to speak out. And, as others have pointed out, it would go a long way to proving any of these disparaging allegations false. The truth is the best defense.


----------



## janet6567

Cindy Crawley said:


> Since you asked. Here are 3 of the photos taken by VA State Trooper Creasy and entered into evidence in the Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) trial. These photos depict the so-called "holding room" on the Dalin Kennels property. As you can see from the photos, many of the crates contain more than one dog.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


Several dogs in those tiny crates?? OMG! Those poor little animals. If these are "sleeping quarters" how do these poor babies have room to lie down and sleep? A picture is worth 1000 words IMHO.


----------



## MiniPoo

You know, it doesn't really matter what we think, does it? I personally want a home raised dog and would not go looking for a kennel raised dog because that is my preference, no matter how many dogs were in the kennel. But this is still a free country. Lynn can have a kennel business if she keeps to the legal limit. Those who want dogs from her are free to buy them. Those who don't, won't.

None of our opinions about Dalin Poodles is going to change anything. So let's keep going round and round with our opinions like a hamster in a wheel.


----------



## Poodlerunner

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Is it ok with anyone here that dogs be treated like a commodity? And live like farm animals on a commercial operation? The idea of this makes my stomach turn. I eat meat, and so do my dogs. Most of it bought from farmers who rear their animals on a small farm where they are not penned up squashed against or on top of one another, and are fed and cared for allowing the animals some sense of dignity right up until they meet their end, which is also done humanely. I just find it difficult to comprehend that anyone, but particularly pet owners, think it is ok for anyone to have such a nauseating number of dogs, or that it is ok to see them jammed into crates like that. Seriously????????



From your statement that she treated her dogs "as a commodity" I think you are assuming that this breeder did not care about her dogs. People who _know her_ said she cared very deeply. People who _know her_ said her dogs had large runs to play in every day. I didn't say it was ok for dogs to be jammed into crates like that picture depicted but I also don't have any proof that this was in fact the case. Do you?

I'm sorry if you cannot understand my sympathy for a woman who, perhaps, got in over her head and needed help. I have to listen to EVIDENCE that is presented that _perhaps_she is not guilty of the worst accusations against her. It has been suggested that the dogs were kept in small crates only for sleeping. My dog is kept in a crate for sleeping. Do we know how many people she enlisted to help care for her dogs? It could have been a whole crew.

TP said the rescuers let a dog die in the heat of a metal crate left too long in the driveway. What a torturous death. For that poodle, I shed a tear and can you imagine how LD, must have felt? Because I am sure that broke her heart.

Arreau, I don't know you. If someone started a vicious rumor about you, I would not believe it. 

pr


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

Eclipse...You echo my sentiments. But there is no question of her guilt. She was found guilty by a jury of her peers. She broke the law of the state and the laws of morality. You just don't keep domestic dogs that way...not if you truly care about dogs more than money. Why people discuss factual evidence and conviction of record as though it's an opinion, I'll never understand. There is really no point in discussing this at all. She's a puppy mill, not a reputable breeder. 

Puppy millers are the most repugnant kind of people I can think of. But then, I love dogs. I have a great respect for them. They deserve the highest degree of dignity. After all, humans basically created them...brought them from the proto dogs they were to what we have now. They're not like a wild animal and they're not human. It's as though they're somewhere in between...in a no man's kind of land. No other animal is like them. We have a phenomenal relationship with domestic dogs. We evolved right along side them. They've influenced our evolution and we theirs. We have a _duty_ to protect them and grant them the highest level of care, love and respect. That is physically impossible when someone has that many dogs, let alone all the rest of the disgusting situation that goes along with it at Dalin.

It takes a lot of time out of my day, which I love to do because I'm obsessed with my dogs.... to give my 3 dogs the time, attention, training, _exercise_ and grooming they need. I even get some help with certain duties. 

They sleep in a crate over night...two of them for their own safety. My old Chi sleeps in bed with me because he won't jump off the bed. The Poodles each have their own crate because they sometimes squabble if put in the same crate. They don't have water in their crate over night because it would just get spilled. And someone suggested that someone like me is doing the same thing as Dalin and could be arrested for cruelty since they don't have water at night and sleep in a crate at night. Come on, puleeze. The same thing as Dalin? That is the most ridiculous, stupidest thing I ever heard. My dogs sleep in the family room/kitchen area and have nice, soft bedding in their crates. During the day they are free in the house while I'm around. If I leave, they go in an ex pen because they're still unsafe left alone, loose in the house. To equate this puppy mill with most pet owners is ludicrous! I don't even know why I'm discussing this. 

I can't understand how anyone can condone and defend a puppy mill or quibble over 40 dogs, 90 dogs, 148 dogs. It doesn't matter. *IT'S A PUPPY MILL! * Disgusting! It happened. It's a fact. These are DOGS! Why are there so many sheep in this matter?


----------



## Poodlerunner

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Why are there so many sheep in this matter?


Sheep. Well said.

pr


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Poodlerunner said:


> From your statement that she treated her dogs "as a commodity" I think you are assuming that this breeder did not care about her dogs. People who _know her_ said she cared very deeply. People who _know her_ said her dogs had large runs to play in every day. I didn't say it was ok for dogs to be jammed into crates like that picture depicted but I also don't have any proof that this was in fact the case. Do you?
> 
> I'm sorry if you cannot understand my sympathy for a woman who, perhaps, got in over her head and needed help. I have to listen to EVIDENCE that is presented that _perhaps_she is not guilty of the worst accusations against her. It has been suggested that the dogs were kept in small crates only for sleeping. My dog is kept in a crate for sleeping. Do we know how many people she enlisted to help care for her dogs? It could have been a whole crew.
> 
> TP said the rescuers let a dog die in the heat of a metal crate left too long in the driveway. What a torturous death. For that poodle, I shed a tear and can you imagine how LD, must have felt? Because I am sure that broke her heart.
> 
> Arreau, I don't know you. If someone started a vicious rumor about you, I would not believe it.
> 
> pr


I am glad you would not believe a vicious rumour about me. But if one were started, I'd be everywhere, screaming my head off, showing every morsel of evidence I had in my defence and opening my home to anyone interested to help me prove the truth. And every puppy family who ever bought a puppy from me would be asked to write a letter outlining their experience. And every person who has ever been in my home with the intent to buy a puppy would also be asked for documentation of what they saw, what they smelled, how the dogs lived, were housed, groomed, etc. But I will never be charged and convicted of animal cruelty, so most of that is moot anyway.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

Poodlerunner said:


> From your statement that she treated her dogs "as a commodity" I think you are assuming that this breeder did not care about her dogs. People who _know her_ said she cared very deeply. People who _know her_ said her dogs had large runs to play in every day. I didn't say it was ok for dogs to be jammed into crates like that picture depicted but I also don't have any proof that this was in fact the case. Do you?
> 
> I'm sorry if you cannot understand my sympathy for a woman who, perhaps, got in over her head and needed help. I have to listen to EVIDENCE that is presented that _perhaps_she is not guilty of the worst accusations against her. It has been suggested that the dogs were kept in small crates only for sleeping. My dog is kept in a crate for sleeping. Do we know how many people she enlisted to help care for her dogs? It could have been a whole crew.
> 
> TP said the rescuers let a dog die in the heat of a metal crate left too long in the driveway. What a torturous death. For that poodle, I shed a tear and can you imagine how LD, must have felt? Because I am sure that broke her heart.
> 
> Arreau, I don't know you. If someone started a vicious rumor about you, I would not believe it.
> 
> pr


Having sympathy is much different from defending her conditions or saying that she has been vindicated. She has not been _vindicated_. She has been found guilty. I'm sure she is not an evil person and I am sure that in her mind she cares for her animals. I'm sure she did not intend to cause harm but finds justification for the conditions. But that doesn't mean it's OK and she has been convicted of animal cruelty. What she has done is wrong. You need to be able to separate those and know that they can occur together.


----------



## Shamrockmommy

The whole situation is just sad whichever way you choose to look at it. I don't like how Tiny is being put into this, and Lynn should've left her out of any sort of vindication attempt.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Eclipse said:


> How some here can condone keeping 90 dogs, (and it seems quite possibly many, many more if the count of 148 posted by Ms. Cawley is accurate) and are proud to have obtained your dog from such a "kennel" astounds me. Size of the dogs, at some point has nothing to do with it. Yes, of course, it would be different if there were 90 or 148 Standards, but really, arguments such as needing that many dogs to produce champions since the litters are smaller are really ridiculous. If that is the case she is "improving" the breed at the cost of the quality of life of the rest of her dogs. You say she knows the lineage and personality of every dog? Every one of the 90 or 148? She may know the lineage, but personalities? If we go with the low amount of 90 and she were to spend just 5 minutes a day interacting individually with each of the 90 dogs to stay abreast of their "personalities" that is 7.5 hours a day. 90 x 5 = 450, 450 minutes / 60 minutes = 7.5 hours. I can't imagine she spends that much time every day (little enough time as it is individually per dog , by the way) with her dogs. How much other time is spent feeding, grooming, etc. Are we to believe she spends all her waking hours every day just tending to these dogs? Where would she find the time to eat, shop for food, show her dogs as part of improving the breed? How does she find time to care for pregnant bitches, whelp litters and socialize puppies?
> 
> 
> 
> To the poster that has been to her house frequently as you say, does she currently have full time kennel help? if so, how many people? How much time do you spend with your 2 Dalin dogs? Do you spend only 5 minutes a day with each? Or do you believe they deserve much more than that? Looking at her kennel another way, would you happily leave your dogs there for boarding if they are kept as the dogs in the pictures indicate? Even if, and I find it a big if, that is only the way she keeps them overnight? Stacked 3 high next to crates with no partitions between them so perhaps your dogs could be urinated or defecated on by a neighbor and spend the night that way? Sleeping on wire racks with no bedding for comfort? Sorry, but when I was getting my girls I wouldn't have even considered working with a breeder that had 30 standards (sort of like 90 toys) and was breeding multiple litters a year and I sure as heck wouldn't board my dogs in an environment such as the Dalin pictures showed.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I don't know this woman from Dalin, or know of her at all. And certainly, she is under no obligation to come out and defend herself or respond to questions on a public forum. But you would think if she was innocent of these charges and her dogs were not kept in such a manner she would want to provide evidence of same and defend her name and reputation as opposed to having others be a mouthpiece on her behalf, especially since Ms. Cawley, who I also have no knowledge of, is here giving one side of the story. The excuse that she is relaying information on a speakerphone while taking care of her dogs is just flimsy. If she has a defense and can prove PCA rescue wrong, then I would think she would want to speak out. And, as others have pointed out, it would go a long way to proving any of these disparaging allegations false. The truth is the best defense.



And the only verifiable truth that can be found in the entire thread is this


----------



## Tiny Poodles

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am glad you would not believe a vicious rumour about me. But if one were started, I'd be everywhere, screaming my head off, showing every morsel of evidence I had in my defence and opening my home to anyone interested to help me prove the truth. And every puppy family who ever bought a puppy from me would be asked to write a letter outlining their experience. And every person who has ever been in my home with the intent to buy a puppy would also be asked for documentation of what they saw, what they smelled, how the dogs lived, were housed, groomed, etc. But I will never be charged and convicted of animal cruelty, so most of that is moot anyway.



Lynn always has and always will welcome anyone to visit her home and kennels. When I was waiting for Timi to be ready, she kept asking me to take Amtrack out there and spend the day with her, but I could not leave my old girls for that length of time. If you would like to join Lynn's Facebook group, you can meet and speak to dozens of her happy customers - they don't have to write letters for her - the happy pictures of them picking up their puppies and their adoration of Lynn is right there for anyone to read about (that is where I "met" insizetoy)
Now if you all want to keep blaming a 75 year old woman for not spending her entire day on the computer defending herself, that is up to you. Perhaps you could do a better job of explaining to her how to get onto and navigate the poodle forum - I have tried many times and failed... Tried just today and got her all the way to this thread, but could not get her to find the arrow to get to the second page....


----------



## Poodlerunner

CharismaticMillie said:


> Having sympathy is much different from defending her conditions or saying that she has been vindicated. She has not been _vindicated_. She has been found guilty. I'm sure she is not an evil person and I am sure that in her mind she cares for her animals. I'm sure she did not intend to cause harm but finds justification for the conditions. But that doesn't mean it's OK and she has been convicted of animal cruelty. What she has done is wrong. You need to be able to separate those and know that they can occur together.


huh! Well couldn't we say the same for many breeders about JUSTIFICATION? The dogs give birth in pain... some of them even DIE in birth. For what? The next big show dog on which to put one's KENNEL name? The love of the breed? A SPORT? One or two show dogs are kept to carry on the kennel name and the rest are sold for $$$ $2,000.00 a pop, 10 in a litter, 3 or 4 litters a year... do that math. I do remember you saying that 25 puppies a year is really not a lot.

There are those that think dog shows are inhumane. But as you say we JUSTIFY the stress put on the dogs. The dogs LOVE sleeping in the show building overnight while the handlers sleep in hotels. They LOVE leaving their homes to go on long campaigns... sometimes they don't eat on a show circuit but that MUST be because they are watching their weight. No way could it be stress, because the dogs JUST LOVE traveling for long hours in crates. And of course, the hours spent grooming and primping is way on top of any dogs list of favorite things. So yes, I agree with you about finding justification for what we do to dogs and animals.

Personally, I just have a pet. However, I want a beautiful, well bred poodle and freely admit my shallowness in that area. I had to go to a show breeder for that, so, since my house is made of glass, I won't throw stones at a breeder who got in over her head and has people vouching for her good character. It's easy to find people to talk bad about someone, but it is really unusual to find someone who, at the risk of voicing an unpopular opinion, will speak up on someone's behalf.

pr


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

Poodlerunner said:


> huh! Well couldn't we say the same for many breeders about JUSTIFICATION? The dogs give birth in pain... some of them even DIE in birth. For what? The next big show dog on which to put one's KENNEL name? The love of the breed? A SPORT? One or two show dogs are kept to carry on the kennel name and the rest are sold for $$$ $2,000.00 a pop, 10 in a litter, 3 or 4 litters a year... do that math. I do remember you saying that 25 puppies a year is really not a lot.
> 
> There are those that think dog shows are inhumane. But as you say we JUSTIFY the stress put on the dogs. The dogs LOVE sleeping in the show building overnight while the handlers sleep in hotels. They LOVE leaving their homes to go on long campaigns... sometimes they don't eat on a show circuit but that MUST be because they are watching their weight. No way could it be stress, because the dogs JUST LOVE traveling for long hours in crates. And of course, the hours spent grooming and primping is way on top of any dogs list of favorite things. So yes, I agree with you about finding justification for what we do to dogs and animals.
> 
> Personally, I just have a pet. However, I want a beautiful, well bred poodle and freely admit my shallowness in that area. I had to go to a show breeder for that, so, since my house is made of glass, I won't throw stones at a breeder who got in over her head and has people vouching for her good character. It's easy to find people to talk bad about someone, but it is really unusual to find someone who, at the risk of voicing an unpopular opinion, will speak up on someone's behalf.
> 
> pr


So now we're _reaching_ for similarities between a person who shows his/her dog and a puppy mill? (I guess you're playing devil's advocate here and don't really think this?)

My Matisse goes to shows occasionally, a couple of them lasted for 4 days in a row. Most are 2 day long affairs. I always stay within my state...don't like to go too far. He does not sleep in some show building at night. He sleeps in the hotel room with me unless the show is close enough, we can drive home quickly. And if the bed is low enough to the floor, he sleeps in the bed with me. He is not one bit stressed with traveling. He's been going places with me since I've had him...often. My family lives across the water and it takes some time to go on the ferry boat and driving time. He's very use to the car and perfectly happy with it, especially when the other dogs are there too. 

He gets to listen to his favorite CD the whole way to the show. He gets to stop at Dairy Queen sometimes for some ice cream or a hamburger. He gets soooooo much attention and adores all the people and dogs, the vendors...loves getting new toys and things. It's a party to him. He does have to stand and get groomed. But he's been groomed every day of his life and he's very accustomed to it. He falls asleep when I groom him. 

He loves trotting around the ring and when he's set on the table for examination...and I'm suppose to hold with one finger, his tail up vertically, it's a lost cause because as the judge approaches, he wags his tail so fast, it looks like there are two tails. He's happy, fed the best food, has the best vet care and ALL the rest of the time, he's like any other dog who gets to go for walks every day, play in a nice place, loved, trained, has play mates, gets to go for car rides to neat places, has my undying attention and love. *What on earth makes someone...anyone...equate a show dog's treatment like my Matisse to this puppy mill?*


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Eclipse...You echo my sentiments. But there is no question of her guilt. She was found guilty by a jury of her peers. She broke the law of the state and the laws of morality. You just don't keep domestic dogs that way...not if you truly care about dogs more than money. Why people discuss factual evidence and conviction of record as though it's an opinion, I'll never understand. There is really no point in discussing this at all. She's a puppy mill, not a reputable breeder.
> 
> 
> 
> Puppy millers are the most repugnant kind of people I can think of. But then, I love dogs. I have a great respect for them. They deserve the highest degree of dignity. After all, humans basically created them...brought them from the proto dogs they were to what we have now. They're not like a wild animal and they're not human. It's as though they're somewhere in between...in a no man's kind of land. No other animal is like them. We have a phenomenal relationship with domestic dogs. We evolved right along side them. They've influenced our evolution and we theirs. We have a _duty_ to protect them and grant them the highest level of care, love and respect. That is physically impossible when someone has that many dogs, let alone all the rest of the disgusting situation that goes along with it at Dalin.
> 
> 
> 
> It takes a lot of time out of my day, which I love to do because I'm obsessed with my dogs.... to give my 3 dogs the time, attention, training, _exercise_ and grooming they need. I even get some help with certain duties.
> 
> 
> 
> They sleep in a crate over night...two of them for their own safety. My old Chi sleeps in bed with me because he won't jump off the bed. The Poodles each have their own crate because they sometimes squabble if put in the same crate. They don't have water in their crate over night because it would just get spilled. And someone suggested that someone like me is doing the same thing as Dalin and could be arrested for cruelty since they don't have water at night and sleep in a crate at night. Come on, puleeze. The same thing as Dalin? That is the most ridiculous, stupidest thing I ever heard. My dogs sleep in the family room/kitchen area and have nice, soft bedding in their crates. During the day they are free in the house while I'm around. If I leave, they go in an ex pen because they're still unsafe left alone, loose in the house. To equate this puppy mill with most pet owners is ludicrous! I don't even know why I'm discussing this.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't understand how anyone can condone and defend a puppy mill or quibble over 40 dogs, 90 dogs, 148 dogs. It doesn't matter. *IT'S A PUPPY MILL! * Disgusting! It happened. It's a fact. These are DOGS! Why are there so many sheep in this matter?



The one and only thing that Lynn was convicted of was having her dogs sleep in a small crate without food or water overnight. THAT is what the state of Virginia deemed to be cruel, and you can shout from the rooftop about that if you like, but every other word that is coming out of your mouth is simply things that you have contrived in your own mind from what you read on the internet.
I began this thread to offer solid evidence that the descriptions and photographs that Ms. Crawley put in her article about Lynn DeRosa's dogs was utter fabrication,and this one page of sworn testimony by the State's Veterinarian does prove that - beyond a shadow of a doubt. 
Ms. Crawley, you still have not answered my questions - 

HOW COULD YOU write that Lynn's dogs were "feces encrusted, matted, and urine scalded" when the were removed from her, after hearing the extensive sworn testimony of Dr. Cunningham that the dogs were entirely healthy, without any skin issues, and the majority freshly groomed, with the rest no worse than a typical pet?

HOW COULD you attach photos of her dogs to that article that were taken AFTER their 9 weeks of shelter incarceration and imply that that was how they looked when they were removed from Lynn? 

FYI I have shown Lynn those photos and she has weeped over them. Does that make you feel good? It broke my heart....


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Poodlebeguiled said:


> So now we're _reaching_ for similarities between a person who shows his/her dog and a puppy mill? (I guess you're playing devil's advocate here and don't really think this?)
> 
> 
> 
> My Matisse goes to shows occasionally, a couple of them lasted for 4 days in a row. Most are 2 day long affairs. I always stay within my state...don't like to go too far. He does not sleep in some show building at night. He sleeps in the hotel room with me unless the show is close enough, we can drive home quickly. And if the bed is low enough to the floor, he sleeps in the bed with me. He is not one bit stressed with traveling. He's been going places with me since I've had him...often. My family lives across the water and it takes some time to go on the ferry boat and driving time. He's very use to the car and perfectly happy with it, especially when the other dogs are there too.
> 
> 
> 
> He gets to listen to his favorite CD the whole way to the show. He gets to stop at Dairy Queen sometimes for some ice cream or a hamburger. He gets soooooo much attention and adores all the people and dogs, the vendors...loves getting new toys and things. It's a party to him. He does have to stand and get groomed. But he's been groomed every day of his life and he's very accustomed to it. He falls asleep when I groom him.
> 
> 
> 
> He loves trotting around the ring and when he's set on the table for examination...and I'm suppose to hold with one finger, his tail up vertically, it's a lost cause because as the judge approaches, he wags his tail so fast, it looks like there are two tails. He's happy, fed the best food, has the best vet care and ALL the rest of the time, he's like any other dog who gets to go for walks every day, play in a nice place, loved, trained, has play mates, gets to go for car rides to neat places, has my undying attention and love. *What on earth makes someone...anyone...equate a show dog's treatment like my Matisse to this puppy mill?*



I would NEVER equate your Matisse to a Dalin Poodle. Rest assured, there is NO risk of that!


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Poodlerunner said:


> huh! Well couldn't we say the same for many breeders about JUSTIFICATION? The dogs give birth in pain... some of them even DIE in birth. For what? The next big show dog on which to put one's KENNEL name? The love of the breed? A SPORT? One or two show dogs are kept to carry on the kennel name and the rest are sold for $$$ $2,000.00 a pop, 10 in a litter, 3 or 4 litters a year... do that math. I do remember you saying that 25 puppies a year is really not a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> There are those that think dog shows are inhumane. But as you say we JUSTIFY the stress put on the dogs. The dogs LOVE sleeping in the show building overnight while the handlers sleep in hotels. They LOVE leaving their homes to go on long campaigns... sometimes they don't eat on a show circuit but that MUST be because they are watching their weight. No way could it be stress, because the dogs JUST LOVE traveling for long hours in crates. And of course, the hours spent grooming and primping is way on top of any dogs list of favorite things. So yes, I agree with you about finding justification for what we do to dogs and animals.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I just have a pet. However, I want a beautiful, well bred poodle and freely admit my shallowness in that area. I had to go to a show breeder for that, so, since my house is made of glass, I won't throw stones at a breeder who got in over her head and has people vouching for her good character. It's easy to find people to talk bad about someone, but it is really unusual to find someone who, at the risk of voicing an unpopular opinion, will speak up on someone's behalf.
> 
> 
> 
> pr



Bravo!!!


----------



## Tiny Poodles

*Dalin Toy Poodle Breeder Lynn DeRosa Liddington Vindicated - proof She has AL...*



TLP said:


> Which is hearsay. You did not witness it. Lynn did (or says she did).
> 
> 
> 
> You visited and saw every part of her set up? I have looked at her place on google earth. It is a large property. Generally when I have puppy buyers to my place I do not give a tour of my whole (regretably small house). But then again all my dogs are in my house with me all the time. They are my beloved pets (who also happen to have show and performance titles).
> 
> 
> 
> I liken your recounting of Lynn's dogs being let out for the day into their roomy runs as letting the cows out to pasture from the barn at night. Sounds terrible. But that is your account...and again....the person who knows is very silent on the whole discussion.



I can speak for Insize on this, because I have discussed this with her extensively - yes she has seen every inch of Lynn's home and kennels many times in the past year when she foster failured one of Lynn's grand champions and picked out her new puppy, so if you have any questions about the facilities and care, ask her!
This is a picture of Insize holding my Timi at 8 weeks old inside Lynn's kennel.








Oh, and for those of you who were asking, here is a picture of one of Lynn's helpers holding Timi at about 9 weeks old








And here s a picture of a long time friend of mine's husband holding Timi when they went to meet Lynn. A few months later they returned to pick up their own little black Dalin girl.









And as I said, you can go to Lynn's Facebook group to meet many more happy customers who have visited her!


----------



## catsaqqara

The pictures of the dogs in creates have been verified.

Pictures on page 7


Cindy Crawley said:


> Since you asked. Here are 3 of the photos taken by VA State Trooper Creasy and entered into evidence in the Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) trial. These photos depict the so-called "holding room" on the Dalin Kennels property. As you can see from the photos, many of the crates contain more than one dog.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


Speaking of InSizeToy, page 10


Tiny Poodles said:


> The only Person in this entire thread who has actually visited Lynn's property inside and out multiple times - her impressions and opinions count for more than all the rest of us "imagineers" rolled up together!!


From page 9 after a post about the photos 


InSizeToy said:


> This is how they sleep every night. They look so happy and healthy! Of course they were ready to be turned out as this "raid" happened in the morning before Lynn could get them fed, watered and into their roomy runs. Funny how no word about how the dog that DIED during the "raid" from being kept in a hot metal dog crate in the sun on a August day. This was told to me by Lynn.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

catsaqqara said:


> The pictures of the dogs in creates have been verified.
> 
> 
> 
> Pictures on page 7
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of InSizeToy, page 10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From page 9 after a post about the photos



Why don't you wait for her to actually answer that question instead of trying to cut and paste an answer? The only photos of crates of Lynn's that I have ever seen in our group or photos that she sent to me were 36" crates, and they were clearly not new, not just purchased in the past year or two. In fact I remember very clearly when I posted the picture of the 36" puppy apartment that I had purchased for Timi in the Dalin group, Lynn commented that she should be happy with it because a 36" in crate is what she sleeps in now.


----------



## Carolinek

catsaqqara said:


> The pictures of the dogs in creates have been verified.
> 
> Pictures on page 7
> 
> 
> Speaking of InSizeToy, page 10
> 
> 
> From page 9 after a post about the photos


Ahhh, yes. Very perceptive, I didn't make the link right away. The photos have indeed been verified by the only person who has been to the kennel.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

I am disgusted at how highschool this has become! First off, the snide response about comparing Matisse to a Dalin dog. Seriously? And how far do we have to reach to compare show dogs to puppy mill dogs? My show dogs live in my house. Pearl just went out to her first shows, so I'll use her as a example of just how "stressful" it was for her. She stayed at the handler's home Saturday night, which was like a playdate as she got to interact with the other dogs, in the home. She ate her own food, Was sent her favourite toy. Got shown and preened over on Sunday, went back to the handler's home. Got shown and preened over on Monday, went back to the handler's home. We arrived to pick her up Tuesday and she was so happily curled up on the couch with the handler's Mom that she did not want to leave, even when she saw me and heard my voice. We had to physically pick her up and carry her to the front door. 

I agree, there are show mills where the dogs are no better off than the situation we are seeing in photos here, but that is not the norm, nor is it any more acceptable than the situation at Dalin.


----------



## patk

i have to agree with tp, carolinek. i don't believe that insize toy's statement that the dogs sleep in crates at night verifies the photos posted by cindy crawley. as the person who asked for a way to independently verify the photos were indeed of dalin dogs, and who asked why the difference between the claim in cindy's article that 90 dogs were involved and her subsequent claim here that 148 dogs were involved, which all go to the issue of facts (and the way they are used) rather than emotions, i am disappointed that she has apparently chosen to ignore the questions. in fact, apparently at that point she decided to abandon the field entirely. what i'm ultimately getting at here is tp's questioning of the photos that accompanied cindy crawley's article for pca. those dogs barely look like dogs. tp asked several times in an earlier thread for a statement from cindy that they were indeed dalin dogs at the time of confiscation. no response to that was ever forthcoming, either.

so from what i can see, the facts that can be verified by a disinterested party or official documentation are that lynn derosa was convicted of a misdemeanor account of animal cruelty and the trial transcript shows that the state vet who examined her animals said that they were in good condition when confiscated - which would be a strange statement if the dogs were indeed in the condition depicted in the photos that accompanied cindy crawley's article. unlike some other states, virginia does offer the possibility of felony convictions for animal cruelty. apparently there was insufficient cause to bring charges on that basis. so at this point i am inclined to conclude that tp is right and that not having water in the crates where the dogs were kept at night was the basis for conviction, not the condition of the dogs as depicted by cindy crawley in her article - but i am open to someone demonstrating (not arguing, demonstrating) otherwise.

does that mean i think having 90 dogs is fine? no, it doesn't. i know i've participated in this conversation in other threads. and if people want to disdain lynn derosa as a show mill, that's their right. but right now i also believe there is reason to question the integrity of pca rescue in making her out to be the world's worst sinner and tp her accomplice. (i guess nobody except me and elem8886 - and plumcrazy - found it unseemly for the head of pca rescue to be personally attacking tp over having a handle - just like 99+% of everyone here.) i don't like the prevalence at pf of the guilt by association mentality. it's clear to me that there are very intelligent people who love their dogs and make up the majority of active participants. those who choose not to act in that way should ask themselves why they let emotions overrun them and lead them to indulge in ugly emotive and often unfounded accusations when logic and facts alone can help them make the points they want to make. 

love your dogs. forget about hating each other for having different opinions. with that, let me wish everyone a happy new year.


----------



## georgiapeach

Moderators, can this thread please be closed? I see no point in continuing it.


----------



## Poodlerunner

patk said:


> i
> love your dogs. forget about hating each other for having different opinions. with that, let me wish everyone a happy new year.


Happy New Year. I agree, don't be a HATER. 

pr


----------



## CharismaticMillie

Patk, having spoken to Cindy today, I can tell you that she has not chosen to ignore any questions but has not yet visited the forum today.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

patk said:


> i have to agree with tp, carolinek. i don't believe that insize toy's statement that the dogs sleep in crates at night verifies the photos posted by cindy crawley. as the person who asked for a way to independently verify the photos were indeed of dalin dogs, and who asked why the difference between the claim in cindy's article that 90 dogs were involved and her subsequent claim here that 148 dogs were involved, which all go to the issue of facts (and the way they are used) rather than emotions, i am disappointed that she has apparently chosen to ignore the questions. in fact, apparently at that point she decided to abandon the field entirely. what i'm ultimately getting at here is tp's questioning of the photos that accompanied cindy crawley's article for pca. those dogs barely look like dogs. tp asked several times in an earlier thread for a statement from cindy that they were indeed dalin dogs at the time of confiscation. no response to that was ever forthcoming, either.
> 
> so from what i can see, the facts that can be verified by a disinterested party or official documentation are that lynn derosa was convicted of a misdemeanor account of animal cruelty and the trial transcript shows that the state vet who examined her animals said that they were in good condition when confiscated - which would be a strange statement if the dogs were indeed in the condition depicted in the photos that accompanied cindy crawley's article. unlike some other states, virginia does offer the possibility of felony convictions for animal cruelty. apparently there was insufficient cause to bring charges on that basis. so at this point i am inclined to conclude that tp is right and that not having water in the crates where the dogs were kept at night was the basis for conviction, not the condition of the dogs as depicted by cindy crawley in her article - but i am open to someone demonstrating (not arguing, demonstrating) otherwise.
> 
> does that mean i think having 90 dogs is fine? no, it doesn't. i know i've participated in this conversation in other threads. and if people want to disdain lynn derosa as a show mill, that's their right. but right now i also believe there is reason to question the integrity of pca rescue in making her out to be the world's worst sinner and tp her accomplice. (i guess nobody except me and elem8886 - and plumcrazy - found it unseemly for the head of pca rescue to be personally attacking tp over having a handle - just like 99+% of everyone here.) i don't like the prevalence at pf of the guilt by association mentality. it's clear to me that there are very intelligent people who love their dogs and make up the majority of active participants. those who choose not to act in that way should ask themselves why they let emotions overrun them and lead them to indulge in ugly emotive and often unfounded accusations when logic and facts alone can help them make the points they want to make.
> 
> love your dogs. forget about hating each other for having different opinions. with that, let me wish everyone a happy new year.



Happy New Year to you! I am so happy that the forum has a sensible, logical person such as yourself who can so clearly summarize the facts, and the missing pieces of the puzzle!


----------



## Tiny Poodles

CharismaticMillie said:


> Patk, having spoken to Cindy today, I can tell you that she has not chosen to ignore any questions but has not yet visited the forum today.



Sorry but those questions were ignored when she was actively participating in the thread.
As to how she could write and publish an article which actively refutes the sworn testimony of the State's Veterinarian, all we heard was a pathetic "I was not privy to the pre-trial discussions with the witness" - implicating that the witness was instructed to lie by the court! That we should believe Cindy Crawley over and above the Prosecution's own witness!

As far as I can tell, her article was intentionally fabricated by her to paint Lynn DeRosa, one of the top winning Toy Poodle Breeders of all time as the most horrific breeder of dogs on the planet, and if she has any evidence to prove that her descriptions and photos of the dogs in her article were of how they were at the time that they were taken from Lynn rather than how they were subsequent to their 9 weeks of shelter incarceration, I would very much like to see it.
So far, the only PROOF that I have seen, the court transcripts, completely contradict the assertions that Ms. Crawley made in her article!


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

I'm not going to go round and round with this anymore. It's ridiculous and also very sad...that anyone would condone this, make excuses for it. What on earth would anyone; the Poodle rescue, Cindy Crawly, AKC who suspended her, the police, the animal control, the judge and jury... etc etc etc have to gain by jumping on this puppy mill? If it were such good sport or profitable, why wouldn't it happen more often than it does? Cindy probably hasn't come back because she's too busy out there cleaning up the mess that other people do to dogs. What on earth would Cindy have to gain by needlessly picking on some breeder? If you doubt her realism, call the rescue organization and find out. If you doubt the charges, look them up and ask if they've been on PF. Look for the individual counts of the misdemeanor or whatever it was. Or call whomever it is you call to find out. Let's stop arguing about something that is a matter of fact, not opinion. It just goes back and forth like a ping pong ball. 

The good that has come out of this never-ending thread and the other one, is that it makes this puppy mill much better known to people who are looking for a breeder. One look at this, doing a search... and if they've got average or even below average intelligence, they'll run, not walk away and look for a truly reputable breeder or what is _*commonly*_ thought of as a reputable breeder. It might make people more aware of puppy mills in general. Because of the high profile now, I suspect that this puppy mass producer and others like her will be watched more closely by Poodle rescue and other authorities and perhaps more dogs can be saved. 

She has not been vindicated. The criminal conviction not been expunged. There has been no mistrial called. The AKC has not reinstated her standing or refunded her fines. There is a reason for this. Think about it. 

The main thing of importance is that these dogs were saved and out of those conditions. And that's all I have to say...at least for the time being.

The veterinarian testifying can have been shown what he was meant to be shown. He could have been paid off. He could have been a personal friend. Most convictions or exonerations don't rely on testimony _alone_.


----------



## Carolinek

Pat K- from the start of this I have been trying to sort out the facts, and the poster is verifying that the photos depict nighttime conditions at the kennel. I don't know how you would interpret it any other way.


This is how they sleep every night. They look so happy and healthy! Of course they were ready to be turned out as this "raid" happened in the morning before Lynn could get them fed, watered and into their roomy runs. 

It doesn't verify the actual photo, and I would also like to see something that supports that. But the poster is very clearly commenting that the photo depicts nighttime conditions at the kennel.

I too have had enough of this now. It feels icky, argumentative, and like high school. Insulting someone else's dog? I never thought I'd see that here. Good Lord- I can only imagine what is said about my rescued misfits. Right now I'm very proud they are not from a show kennel.

We can agree to disagree on this, no hard feelings. Have a very happy, healthy and wonderful new year!


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I'm not going to go round and round with this anymore. It's ridiculous and also very sad...that anyone would condone this, make excuses for it. What on earth would anyone; the Poodle rescue, Cindy Crawly, AKC who suspended her, the police, the animal control, the judge and jury... etc etc etc have to gain by jumping on this puppy mill? If it were such good sport or profitable, why wouldn't it happen more often than it does? Cindy probably hasn't come back because she's too busy out there cleaning up the mess that other people do to dogs. What on earth would Cindy have to gain by needlessly picking on some breeder? If you doubt her realism, call the rescue organization and find out. If you doubt the charges, look them up and ask if they've been on PF. Look for the individual counts of the misdemeanor or whatever it was. Or call whomever it is you call to find out. Let's stop arguing about something that is a matter of fact, not opinion. It just goes back and forth like a ping pong ball.
> 
> 
> 
> The good that has come out of this never-ending thread and the other one, is that it makes this puppy mill much better known to people who are looking for a breeder. One look at this, doing a search... and if they've got average or even below average intelligence, they'll run, not walk away and look for a truly reputable breeder or what is _*commonly*_ thought of as a reputable breeder. It might make people more aware of puppy mills in general. Because of the high profile now, I suspect that this puppy mass producer and others like her will be watched more closely by Poodle rescue and other authorities and perhaps more dogs can be saved.
> 
> 
> 
> She has not been vindicated. The criminal conviction not been expunged. There has been no mistrial called. The AKC has not reinstated her standing or refunded her fines. There is a reason for this. Think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> The main thing of importance is that these dogs were saved and out of those conditions. And that's all I have to say...at least for the time being.
> 
> 
> 
> The veterinarian testifying can have been shown what he was meant to be shown. He could have been paid off. He could have been a personal friend. Most convictions or exonerations don't rely on testimony _alone_.



Correction - Lynn DeRosa has indeed been vindicated from the lies and misleading photos that Cindy Crawley published in the PCA newsletter.

If anybody in the future reading this wants to find a supremely healthy, gorgeous, and incredibly well socialized puppy such as my Timi, then they would be wise to go and meet Lynn and tour her facilities for themselves, and make their own evaluation - I know that is what I would do if I did not have the history of positive experiences and reports of dozens of other customers that I do.

If however they come here looking for a gimpy, liver nosed poodle that appears to have blood dripping out of his eyes, I am sure that you can direct them to a breeder who can assist them.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Tiny Poodles said:


> Correction - Lynn DeRosa has indeed been vindicated from the lies and misleading photos that Cindy Crawley published in the PCA newsletter.
> 
> If anybody in the future reading this wants to find a supremely healthy, gorgeous, and incredibly well socialized puppy such as my Timi, then they would be wise to go and meet Lynn and tour her facilities for themselves, and make their own evaluation - I know that is what I would do if I did not have the history of positive experiences and reports of dozens of other customers that I do.
> 
> If however they come here looking for a gimpy, liver nosed poodle that appears to have blood dripping out of his eyes, I am sure that you can direct them to a breeder who can assist them.


WHAT??????????!!!!!!!!! Now I am beyond disgusted at your behaviour. Are you implying that EVERYONE aside from Dalin is breeding low quality, sickly puppies? I take TREMENDOUS offense!


----------



## 2719

Tiny Poodles said:


> If anybody in the future reading this wants to find a supremely healthy, gorgeous, and incredibly well socialized puppy such as my Timi, then they would be wise to go and meet Lynn and tour her facilities for themselves, and make their own evaluation - I know that is what I would do if I did not have the history of positive experiences and reports of dozens of other customers that I do.


But Lynn Derosa Liddington, Dalin Poodles has been suspended from the AKC for ten years has she not? So has she not lost her ability to register dogs or compete in events? If she is 75 and unable to defend herself perhaps it is now time to sit back and enjoy her poodles as pets only?


----------



## poolann

First of all, I don't have a horse in this race but I have been following the thread. Second, AKC is unambiguous about their rules regarding a guilty plea or conviction for animal cruelty. I have had reason to research this information even though I am not a breeder. I will not go into the specifics of why I have this knowledge. 

A trial found the owner of Dalin kennel guilty of animal cruelty (public record.) It doesn't matter how severe the cruelty or whether it is one count or 20. The AKC has in their bi-laws a penalty of 10yr suspension + $2000 fine for guilt in an animal cruelty case. The suspension means that any dogs owned by the guilty party no longer have valid AKC registration & subsequent litters from those dogs are not eligible for registration. In order to still sell AKC registered dogs then those dogs would have to have different people listed as owners of record. It seems to me that if I were purchasing what I felt was a quality puppy from a reputable breeder a different name on the puppy's papers would be a red flag. 

So, the fact is regardless of this person's intentions she was found guilty via jury trial of one count of animal cruelty. The specific type or degree of cruelty is irrelevant. For her particular location there was some type of illegal practice that went on. Any previous "good" reputation of the individual has been tarnished by their own action or lack of action. They have lost all privileges granted by the AKC. At this point my personal feeling is that they should no longer breed or sell puppies. Their own involvement serves to negate any improvement to the breed which ultimately should be the goal of a breeder.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

*Dalin Toy Poodle Breeder Lynn DeRosa Liddington Vindicated - proof She has AL...*



ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> WHAT??????????!!!!!!!!! Now I am beyond disgusted at your behaviour. Are you implying that EVERYONE aside from Dalin at breeding low quality, sickly puppies? I take TREMENDOUS offense!



I mostly only pay attention to Toys, but it is true that I have not come across any yet that compare to Dalin - not saying that there are not any others, but no the typical breeder that I have seen does not in my opinion compare. And I guess the fact that she is indeed one of the top winning show breeders of all time means that the poodle community at large agrees with me, doesn't it? Right now GCH Dalin Dreamy is one of the op 3 Tpoos in the country.

And I am always amazed when I see a breeder pushing 8 week old puppies as "show quality" - probably at least half of the pet puppies that Lynn sells are in the 6 -12 month range because it is not until that age that she can truly determine if they have EVERYTHING that she needs to keep a dog (and I might add that I have not heard a single pet parent complain about their Dalin that they got at that age having any social or temperament problems, quite the opposite in fact).

And yes, I am a bit saddened and disgusted when I see people slathering poodles in make-up to pass them through the show ring, finish them, and pass along their genes to the next generation. You may not agree with the numbers that Lynn has had in the past, but the fact is that she was not breeding those numbers with the intention of making lots of pet puppies to sell, but rather to have the ability to choose and reproduce dogs that encompass all of the best features of the breed that we all admire. She would NEVER mask faults in order to get a championship thrown on a dog, any dog that developed any fault was immediately removed from her program and placed in a pet home, and that is why she, far more than any other breeder that I have run into, has the ability to consistently reproduce exceptionally high quality in every aspect poodles. It is evident in her show record, and it is evident in the pets that she has placed with her groups members - there is not a single one in the group that I wouldn't have been as happy with and proud of as I am my Timi. 
Can other breeders ever produce a Toy Poodle equal to the quality of a Dalin? Sure, sometimes, but can they do it with the consistency that Dalin can, no I don't think so. And they probably never will as long as they continue with the stance of hiding faults instead of eliminating them from their breeding....


----------



## Tiny Poodles

TLP said:


> But Lynn Derosa Liddington, Dalin Poodles has been suspended from the AKC for ten years has she not? So has she not lost her ability to register dogs or compete in events? If she is 75 and unable to defend herself perhaps it is now time to sit back and enjoy her poodles as pets only?



As I understand it, she is reducing her numbers, but she plans to build a brand new, though smaller scale kennel at her new home and continue to breed. Maybe UKC, I am not sure, and as a pet buyer, I don't really care - I only care that When I am ready for another poodle, it will be a Dalin. After sharing my life with 3 incredible Dalins over the past 15 years, I could not imagine settling for anything less...


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Poodlebeguiled said:


> The veterinarian testifying can have been shown what he was meant to be shown. He could have been paid off. He could have been a personal friend. Most convictions or exonerations don't rely on testimony _alone_.



You win the award for the most absurd statements made on this thread!
The Veterinarian that the Sate brought the dog's to on the day that they were confiscated, the Prosecution's prime witness may have been a personal friend or she may have been paid off? You trust the court's conviction on the charge of crating the dogs overnight without food or water as just and valid, but her innocence on all other charges you imagine were the result of someone being paid off??! 
Your thinking is completely absent of logic or reason.


----------



## poolann

Tiny Poodles said:


> I mostly only pay attention to Toys, but it is true that I have not come across any yet that compare to Dalin - not saying that there are not any others, but no the typical breeder that I have seen does not in my opinion compare. And I guess the fact that she is indeed one of the top winning show breeders of all time means that the poodle community at large agrees with me, doesn't it? Right now GCH Dalin Dreamy is one of the op 3 Tpoos in the country.
> 
> And I am always amazed when I see a breeder pushing 8 week old puppies as "show quality" - probably at least half of the pet puppies that Lynn sells are in the 6 -12 month range because it is not until that age that she can truly determine if they have EVERYTHING that she needs to keep a dog (and I might add that I have not heard a single pet parent complain about their Dalin that they got at that age having any social or temperament problems, quite the opposite in fact).
> 
> And yes, I am a bit saddened and disgusted when I see people slathering poodles in make-up to pass them through the show ring, finish them, and pass along their genes to the next generation. You may not agree with the numbers that Lynn has had in the past, but the fact is that she was not breeding those numbers with the intention of making lots of pet puppies to sell, but rather to have the ability to choose and reproduce dogs that encompass all of the best features of the breed that we all admire. She would NEVER mask faults in order to get a championship thrown on a dog, any dog that developed any fault was immediately removed from her program and placed in a pet home, and that is why she, far more than any other breeder that I have run into, has the ability to consistently reproduce exceptionally high quality in every aspect poodles. It is evident in her show record, and it is evident in the pets that she has placed with her groups members - there is not a single one in the group that I wouldn't have been as happy with and proud of as I am my Timi.
> Can other breeders ever produce a Toy Poodle equal to the quality of a Dalin? Sure, sometimes, but can they do it with the consistency that Dalin can, no I don't think so. And they probably never will as long as they continue with the stance of hiding faults instead of eliminating them from their breeding....[/QUOmatesOK so in defense of other breeders I feel the need to comment. "Show quality" to a reputable breeder means a dog that exhibits the potential to be a show prospect. It is no guarantee that the puppy will win or even do well in the ring. It means that at the time it is the breeder's professional opinion that the dog has the potential, there are many other factors that will effect how a dog will actually do hence many "show quality" puppies being placed as pets older than obviously pet quality litter mates. I am very friendly with several breeders any of which will tell you that in a litter of say 9 puppies there might be one or two with potential. What happens to the other six? They are placed in pet homes. My understanding is that in toy breeds a bitch might produce 3-4 puppies if you get lucky. Now to even the odds of producing "show quality" puppies you would have to breed more litters. That doesn't mean you are producing a more consistent or even better quality dog. It simply means you are breeding more bitches or breeding bitches more frequently.


----------



## poolann

Tiny Poodles said:


> As I understand it, she is reducing her numbers, but she plans to build a brand new, though smaller scale kennel at her new home and continue to breed. Maybe UKC, I am not sure, and as a pet buyer, I don't really care - I only care that When I am ready for another poodle, it will be a Dalin. After sharing my life with 3 incredible Dalins over the past 15 years, I could not imagine settling for anything less...


She can't register dogs in her own name with UKC either. You have to present a valid registration from another approved kennel club to register a dog in UKC. Unless someone is willing to sell her a dog that is already UKC registered with papers. I would think that others even in different registries would be hesitant to have their name tied into that.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

poolann said:


> Tiny Poodles said:
> 
> 
> 
> I mostly only pay attention to Toys, but it is true that I have not come across any yet that compare to Dalin - not saying that there are not any others, but no the typical breeder that I have seen does not in my opinion compare. And I guess the fact that she is indeed one of the top winning show breeders of all time means that the poodle community at large agrees with me, doesn't it? Right now GCH Dalin Dreamy is one of the op 3 Tpoos in the country.
> 
> And I am always amazed when I see a breeder pushing 8 week old puppies as "show quality" - probably at least half of the pet puppies that Lynn sells are in the 6 -12 month range because it is not until that age that she can truly determine if they have EVERYTHING that she needs to keep a dog (and I might add that I have not heard a single pet parent complain about their Dalin that they got at that age having any social or temperament problems, quite the opposite in fact).
> 
> And yes, I am a bit saddened and disgusted when I see people slathering poodles in make-up to pass them through the show ring, finish them, and pass along their genes to the next generation. You may not agree with the numbers that Lynn has had in the past, but the fact is that she was not breeding those numbers with the intention of making lots of pet puppies to sell, but rather to have the ability to choose and reproduce dogs that encompass all of the best features of the breed that we all admire. She would NEVER mask faults in order to get a championship thrown on a dog, any dog that developed any fault was immediately removed from her program and placed in a pet home, and that is why she, far more than any other breeder that I have run into, has the ability to consistently reproduce exceptionally high quality in every aspect poodles. It is evident in her show record, and it is evident in the pets that she has placed with her groups members - there is not a single one in the group that I wouldn't have been as happy with and proud of as I am my Timi.
> Can other breeders ever produce a Toy Poodle equal to the quality of a Dalin? Sure, sometimes, but can they do it with the consistency that Dalin can, no I don't think so. And they probably never will as long as they continue with the stance of hiding faults instead of eliminating them from their breeding....[/QUOmatesOK so in defense of other breeders I feel the need to comment. "Show quality" to a reputable breeder means a dog that exhibits the potential to be a show prospect. It is no guarantee that the puppy will win or even do well in the ring. It means that at the time it is the breeder's professional opinion that the dog has the potential, there are many other factors that will effect how a dog will actually do hence many "show quality" puppies being placed as pets older than obviously pet quality litter mates. I am very friendly with several breeders any of which will tell you that in a litter of say 9 puppies there might be one or two with potential. What happens to the other six? They are placed in pet homes. My understanding is that in toy breeds a bitch might produce 3-4 puppies if you get lucky. Now to even the odds of producing "show quality" puppies you would have to breed more litters. That doesn't mean you are producing a more consistent or even better quality dog. It simply means you are breeding more bitches or breeding bitches more frequently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I find it sad that somebody would sell a "show quality" puppy, with the hope and price tag that goes along with it at eight weeks of age. Much better I think for the breeder to to hold it long enough to judge if it's potential has come to fruition and it is indeed show quality. Doing so I think would greatly reduce the impulse of people to slather their poodle with make up and corrective grooming in order to get the championship that they desire, and ultimately pass the inferior genes onto the next generation, leaving poor pet owners to wonder "why is my poodle developing a limp, or the ever popular "what can I do to get rid if his horrible tear stains"
> But you are correct, 3-4 would be lucky, I think that the average is more like two - another reason why a small scale breeder with 3 or 4 poodles would be motivated to fake the quality of the puppies that they produce.
Click to expand...


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Tiny...have you ever seen a Cavri Toy Poodle? In my opinion she has some of the nicest conformed, structurally sound, sweetest natured Toys I have seen in my life. And guess what? They are raised in her home, loved and doted on by their human family. There is no kennel building, no banks of crates, just happy babies in a home environment that are beautiful in looks and in spirit. If I were in the market for a Toy, I'd be beating a path to her door! She does things the way I like. Oh...they are also shown and championed. Quite the concept! And she has a litter every couple of years! Anyway, looks like you have ticked off most of the rational people and they're dropping off like flies now, feeling like they are smashing their heads into a brick wall. I too will depart for now.

Happy New Year everyone!


----------



## Tiny Poodles

poolann said:


> She can't register dogs in her own name with UKC either. You have to present a valid registration from another approved kennel club to register a dog in UKC. Unless someone is willing to sell her a dog that is already UKC registered with papers. I would think that others even in different registries would be hesitant to have their name tied into that.



Like I said, I don't know, and I don't care - I am just happy to hear that when I am ready for a new poodle there will still be puppies of the level that I am accustomed to available for me. It will be the show communities loss if there are no more Dalins available for them.


----------



## Poodlerunner

Poodlebeguiled said:


> The veterinarian testifying can have been shown what he was meant to be shown.


huh? I can't figure out what you are trying to say here.



Poodlebeguiled said:


> He could have been paid off. He could have been a personal friend. Most convictions or exonerations don't rely on testimony _alone_.


Are you serious? Is it too late to edit that because WOW.

pr


----------



## PoodlePaws

Poodle mama drama ✌

(Sorry. Couldn't resist)


----------



## Tiny Poodles

poolann said:


> She can't register dogs in her own name with UKC either. You have to present a valid registration from another approved kennel club to register a dog in UKC. Unless someone is willing to sell her a dog that is already UKC registered with papers. I would think that others even in different registries would be hesitant to have their name tied into that.



Just got curious and did some googling and found this - it does not say that the the dogs registrations become invalid, only that they cannot transfer dogs owned by them, or register litters by those dogs. After all, if they were rescinding the dog's registration, then rightfully they should be sending back all registration fees and show entry fees for the dogs, and you know that they are not doing that!







As I read this, the dogs who were registered before the suspension remain validly registered, they simply are not allowed to do anything with the dog during the suspension. I guess it would just depend upon UKC's rules on that...


----------



## InSizeToy

InSizeToy said:


> This is how they sleep every night. They look so happy and healthy! Of course they were ready to be turned out as this "raid" happened in the morning before Lynn could get them fed, watered and into their roomy runs. Funny how no word about how the dog that DIED during the "raid" from being kept in a hot metal dog crate in the sun on a August day. This was told to me by Lynn.


I did not know how to attach the comment I was responding to when I made this post. It was concerning photos of dogs. These dogs were taken from Lynn's larger crates and put into these small transport crates as you can see they are numbered for transport. Her dogs have beds to sleep on at night in the crates.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

InSizeToy said:


> I did not know how to attach the comment I was responding to when I made this post. It was concerning photos of dogs. These dogs were taken from Lynn's larger crates and put into these small transport crates as you can see they are numbered for transport. Her dogs have beds to sleep on at night in the crates.



Thank you for clearing that up! It is so very sad how members of the poodle fancy are so quick to gang up and go for the kill of one of their own. Just like wild dogs, they always want to take down the leader of the pack :-(


----------



## Carolinek

When you post erroneous or misleading information you are responsible for it. 

The people seeing that information are not responsible for somehow reading your mind and knowing you meant something else.

To think otherwise is absurd, and does not make you a victim. The only victims here are the dogs.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

*Dalin Toy Poodle Breeder Lynn DeRosa Liddington Vindicated - proof She has AL...*

Well since Cindy Crawley saw it fit to illicitly obtain and post those pictures, you might notice that all of the dogs pictured look to be in good weight, alert and excited to see people, mostly freshly groomed, even the one with long hair is not noticeably matted - exactly like the Prosecution's Vet Dr. Cunningham described, and absolutely NOTHING like the photos and description in Cindy Crawley's article!

Thank you for helping me to prove that your article was indeed full of lies and intentionally misleading Ms. Crawley!
What a horrible thing you did to one of the top Toy Poodle Breeders of all time!


----------



## Cindy Crawley

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well since Cindy Crawley saw it fit to illicitly obtain and post those pictures, you might notice that all of the dogs pictured look to be in good weight, alert and excited to see people, mostly freshly groomed, even the one with long hair is not noticeably matted - exactly like the Prosecution's Vet Dr. Cunningham described, and absolutely NOTHING like the photos and description in Cindy Crawley's article!
> 
> Thank you for helping me to prove that your article was indeed full of lies and intentionally misleading Ms. Crawley!
> What a horrible thing you did to one of the top Toy Poodle Breeders of all time!


Please see the attachments. The photos I posted on this list were obtained through the proper channels from the Office of the Clerk of the Court of the Richmond County Circuit Court, Criminal Division. If the woman posting these outrageous comments does not stop making false statements about me, I will seek the advice of the PCA Rescue attorney and Wayne Emery, the VA Commonwealth Attorney in whose jurisdiction this trial was held. 

Moderators and Administrators of the list - please take note. Since you seem incapable of monitoring this venue, your names will be included in any complaint I file. 

Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## alwayson

*Here I am*



PoodlePaws said:


> I was just wondering about this today. Thank goodness the truth is finally out TP.
> 
> And - Why SHOULD Lynn have to join this forum to defend herself? This is an Internet forum. All poodle people do not have to join this forum.
> 
> And - why did Crowley feel the need to join this forum to further try to press the issue of abuse?? How did she even know we were discussing this here??
> 
> And - where the heck is that other person from the last thread on this subject that was so heck bent on damaging and slandering Dalin before she even had any of the facts? I can't even remember her name now.
> 
> And - this is AMY. but you can address me as PoodlePaws. Human mom to tpoos Missy & Ash , and Tzu Gemma.
> 
> TP - 1
> CC - 0


 Here I am , First I didn't even know that Cindy was here , I thought all were Welcome and this is a open forum . I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong about that . I have forgotten her name and I had met her at dinner in 2012 at the Olive Garden for Dinner their was about 35 to 40 people at the table. I am so bad with names , sorry, she had I think 3 or 4 people with her at that was there . There was breeders there that had 34 to 65 years in breeding poodles if not more . I don't know if you know what the PCA is , for one thing its the biggest poodle show in North American and they do so much more . WONDERFUL things for the poodles and PROTECT them with LOVE and KINDNESS The best of the Best get shown there . It's great honor if your dog wins there. As mine have and many more , Its a great honor to have a dog in that ring . You don't know to much about the internet either I see , Every time some one makes a statement about this as you have done and others , it keeps the subject matter active, So any one can Google the subject and it will come up to the top of the list, that is how I knew you was taking again . Why do you abject to any member ? I personal I welcome any one that has something to say about this matter. Why are you Protesting ? The truth should never be something any one fears . It really isn't important if you are any one believes this . It's in print , it keeps going in the internet thanks to you and others so it just like spreading a virus ,. I guess this is something you want . I haven't said any a thing on this subject in months (OCT) , But when some one comes on that may say something new , for what I seen someone ask her the question , I am sure if she post any document's it will have Dates on them for all to see if they are from this case . Again I Welcome Cindy and others that care about our poodles , and take the extra step to protect them . Its very hart breaking job to see how some of them have lived . I am thrilled there is people like her to care ...... Happy New Years to you all :amen:


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Cindy Crawley said:


> Please see the attachments. The photos I posted on this list were obtained through the proper channels from the Office of the Clerk of the Court of the Richmond County Circuit Court, Criminal Division. If the woman posting these outrageous comments does not stop making false statements about me, I will seek the advice of the PCA Rescue attorney and Wayne Emery, the VA Commonwealth Attorney in whose jurisdiction this trial was held.
> 
> 
> 
> Moderators and Administrators of the list - please take note. Since you seem incapable of monitoring this venue, your names will be included in any complaint I file.
> 
> 
> 
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue



So glad that you obtained the photographs through the proper channels, proving that they are legit.

Now please address the fact that the condition of the dogs in the transport crates is congruent with the State's Veterinary Witness, and the polar opposite of how you described them in the article and the photographs of the severely neglected dogs that accompanied that article?! 
Please explain how that is not proof that your article was intentionally misleading!

We are also waiting for your explanation as to why you drastically increased your claim as to the number of dogs that Lynn owned between writing that article and the present time.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

Cindy Crawley said:


> Please see the attachments. The photos I posted on this list were obtained through the proper channels from the Office of the Clerk of the Court of the Richmond County Circuit Court, Criminal Division. If the woman posting these outrageous comments does not stop making false statements about me, I will seek the advice of the PCA Rescue attorney and Wayne Emery, the VA Commonwealth Attorney in whose jurisdiction this trial was held.
> 
> Moderators and Administrators of the list - please take note. Since you seem incapable of monitoring this venue, your names will be included in any complaint I file.
> 
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


:adore::adore::adore: You're _so_ valued and loved by so many people and dogs, it's completely outrageous they way you're being treated.


----------



## Cindy Crawley

Tiny Poodles said:


> So glad that you obtained the photographs through the proper channels, proving that they are legit.
> 
> Now please address the fact that the condition of the dogs in the transport crates is congruent with the State's Veterinary Witness, and the polar opposite of how you described them in the article and the photographs of the severely neglected dogs that accompanied that article?!
> Please explain how that is not proof that your article was intentionally misleading!
> 
> We are also waiting for your explanation as to why you drastically increased your claim as to the number of dogs that Lynn owned between writing that article and the present time.


The attached photos speak for themselves. These were dogs taken from the Dalin situation. They arrived in the foster home in that condition. I cannot say why the veterinarian testified in the trial the way they did. I have no idea what you are talking about in terms of numbers of dogs. Maybe you should reread the article. Can you read?


----------



## plumcrazy

It's New Years Day... I'm trying to relax with my family & celebrate the new year, but I keep getting interrupted with reports about this thread. 

Is it possible for everyone to just take a breath and stop bashing each other for one freaking day??? This thread just keeps rehashing the same tired allegations. "She said/She said". Enough!!!!

Ms. Crawley, I am a volunteer, unpaid moderator of this forum. I am the sole moderator. There is no possible way on this earth that I can read every single post in this forum, and generally there isn't this sort of nastiness going on. Since I am only human, I also cannot determine the truthfulness or lack thereof of everyone's posts. I am not a lie detector. 

This will be my only warning. If I get any more reports on this thread, it will be closed. Play nice!


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Cindy Crawley said:


> The attached photos speak for themselves. These were dogs taken from the Dalin situation. They arrived in the foster home in that condition. I cannot say why the veterinarian testified in the trial the way they did. I have no idea what you are talking about in terms of numbers of dogs. Maybe you should reread the article. Can you read?



Well thank you for finally admitting that those photos were taken when the dogs arrived in foster care NINE WEEKS AFTER THEY WERE REMOVED FROM LYNN DeROSA's care.

So again I ask you why in your article you implied that those photos depicted the condition that the poodles were in at the time that they were removed from Lynn when in fact you had photos in your possession of the dramatically better condition that the dogs were actually in on the day that they were taken from Lynn?!

And as a side note, as the president of PCA rescue, I ask if you have made any moves to improve the VA Shelter system that caused the dogs to be in that horrific condition? Or do you only go after acclaimed breeders?


----------



## Poodlerunner

Cindy Crawley said:


> Can you read?


Wow, wow, wow. At least you didn't sign the PCA rescue title with this post! 

It is not my opinion... it is a fact that that was a very unprofessional thing to say. 

In my opinion, it alone makes me wonder about you and your motives. You came on here representing the PCA rescue by invoking them in your signature, (which also gives you a modicum of credibility). How am I supposed to take anything you say seriously now? I would imagine a remark like that from a mean spirited person/organization.

pr


----------



## MiniPoo

Tiny Poodles, I have great sympathy for your position about Dalin Poodles, but no matter what you say or what evidence you present, I don't believe you are going to change other people's mind who do not think well of her. Rather than continue this "he said, she said", can't we agree to disagree and end this thread?


----------



## Tiny Poodles

I should point out that it was not me, but another wise forum member who pointed out the discrepancy between what Ms. Crawley wrote in her article, and what she said here, upping the number of dogs that she claims that Lynn had by almost 60!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!! We all have our opinions and none of this is going to change anyone's mind at this point. All this is doing now is making some people look like complete imbeciles. This is the first day of a new year! We grieve and cry over the state of this planet...well, is it any wonder when crap like this can go on for over 15 pages? Let it go now and spend your energy praying for peace and understanding.


----------



## MiniPoo

TP, you cannot make people answer questions they do not acknowledge or understand. I know you want vindication for Lynn, and I think SOME people may now feel more favorable than before. But I do not think you will get the justice you are looking for on this forum. Plus Lynn is starting a new life in NC. Let her start fresh and let's stop opening the wounds of the past so it can heal.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

MiniPoo said:


> TP, you cannot make people answer questions they do not acknowledge or understand. I know you want vindication for Lynn, and I think SOME people may now feel more favorable than before. But I do not think you will get the justice you are looking for on this forum. Plus Lynn is starting a new life in NC. Let her start fresh and let's stop opening the wounds of the past so it can heal.



Thanks, I only wanted the truth about Cindy Crawley's horribly inaccurate article to be out there for those who wish to open their eyes to the truth, and I have done that.

I realize that there are those who only see what they want to see, and I never had a thought of changing their closed minds, but I am satisfied that this forum has allowed me to put the truth out there for others to see and understand if they wish, because you are correct that Lynn is starting anew, and someday there may be another fantastic puppy like my Timi looking for a loving and caring home, and it would be sad if all of this prevented that good home from finding that perfect little puppy....


----------



## catsaqqara

InSizeToy said:


> This is how they sleep every night. They look so happy and healthy! Of course they were ready to be turned out as this "raid" happened in the morning before Lynn could get them fed, watered and into their roomy runs. Funny how no word about how the dog that DIED during the "raid" from being kept in a hot metal dog crate in the sun on a August day. This was told to me by Lynn.





InSizeToy said:


> I did not know how to attach the comment I was responding to when I made this post. It was concerning photos of dogs. These dogs were taken from Lynn's larger crates and put into these small transport crates as you can see they are numbered for transport. Her dogs have beds to sleep on at night in the crates.





Cindy Crawley said:


> Since you asked. Here are 3 of the photos taken by VA State Trooper Creasy and entered into evidence in the Karen Lynn Liddington (aka Lynn DeRosa/Dalin Toy Poodles) trial. These photos depict the so-called "holding room" on the Dalin Kennels property. As you can see from the photos, many of the crates contain more than one dog.
> Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


There are 3 pictures, 2 have pictured the same group of cages (2nd and 3rd pics) the 1st pic is of a different set of cages. If you notice pic #2 has no white numbered cards on the cages, pic #3 (of the same cages) does have white numbered cards. I believe the only conclusion that can be made is that the police were numbering the cages for evidence/documentation. 
At least 8 large cages shown (but likely more) with 6 units each, dogs at least 2 to each (one pic clearly shows 3 in one cage,). That makes at least 96 dogs claimed to be awaiting transport, moved into at least 48 cages the morning before the raid. They don't have any water in the pics.
This is with the belief that all were occupied with at least 2 dogs, there would not be a need to house 3 in one if there were some with only 1 dog or empty. 

I just wanted to point that out.


----------



## alwayson

*very nice*

Very nice standard poodles. must take you a lot of hours to keep them looking that nice


----------



## patk

catsaqqara said:


> There are 3 pictures, 2 have pictured the same group of cages (2nd and 3rd pics) the 1st pic is of a different set of cages. If you notice pic #2 has no white numbered cards on the cages, pic #3 (of the same cages) does have white numbered cards. I believe the only conclusion that can be made is that the police were numbering the cages for evidence/documentation.
> At least 8 large cages shown (but likely more) with 6 units each, dogs at least 2 to each (one pic clearly shows 3 in one cage,). That makes at least 96 dogs claimed to be awaiting transport, moved into at least 48 cages the morning before the raid. They don't have any water in the pics.
> This is with the belief that all were occupied with at least 2 dogs, there would not be a need to house 3 in one if there were some with only 1 dog or empty.
> 
> I just wanted to point that out.


the other side of the coin is that if these are the only photos entered in evidence ($38 for three photos!), then there's every possibility that the photos cindy crawley used to accompany her article indeed misrepresent - grossly - the condition of the dogs at the time of confiscation. i give her kudos for not trying to claim at pf that those were the photos sent to her by county officials.

normally no one's mind gets changed by threads of this kind. i am sorry to say mine has - about the credibility of the pca article, though not about the idea of keeping 90 dogs.

the weather is great where i am; looks like a wonderful beginning to 2015. hope everyone else can say the same!


----------



## Tiny Poodles

patk said:


> the other side of the coin is that if these are the only photos entered in evidence ($38 for three photos!), then there's every possibility that the photos cindy crawley used to accompany her article indeed misrepresent - grossly - the condition of the dogs at the time of confiscation. i give her kudos for not trying to claim at pf that those were the photos sent to her by county officials.
> 
> normally no one's mind gets changed by threads of this kind. i am sorry to say mine has - about the credibility of the pca article, though not about the idea of keeping 90 dogs.
> 
> the weather is great where i am; looks like a wonderful beginning to 2015. hope everyone else can say the same!



All I wanted to do was to prove that Lynn's dogs were not abused or neglected in the way that Ms. Crawley implicated in her PCA article, and thank you for confirming that I have done that for you.

I think that there is no disagreement that she had too many dogs, but Lynn is currently in process of retiring and placing a number of her dogs, and going forward her plans are to continue on a much smaller scale, so no more worries about her numbers - I only hope that someday she gets just one more perfect little black girl for me


----------



## plumcrazy

I haven't received any further reports (yet), but now I'm getting private messages telling me how to do my (unpaid, volunteer) job - or maybe how NOT to do it...

I do not know all the details from either side of this story, but I can tell you that because of the antics from individuals on both sides of the fence, I'm heartily tired of hearing about it.

:deadhorse:

I didn't know anything about the breeder in question, nor about pca rescue until this thread, but I can say that I'm not very fond of either at this point. I'm not keen on show mills or (not so) veiled threats of legal action against me for being a volunteer, sole moderator of a huge internet forum comprised of supposed adults who should be able to restrain themselves from creating negative drama. Adults who should have the maturity to treat each other kindly and not disparage other members or their beloved pets!! There were a couple of comparisons on this thread of "high school", but this has been much, much worse. Especially since the individuals involved should have learned by now to treat others as they would wish to be treated and if they aren't going to say anything nice, just zip it!!

Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too! - Announcements in Forum : News and Announcements

Are we having fun yet? :doh:


----------



## Tiny Poodles

I am truly sorry for the distress that this thread has caused you Plumcrazy, and I really appreciate you allowing me the opportunity to have my viewpoint heard.


----------



## Cindy Crawley

patk said:


> the other side of the coin is that if these are the only photos entered in evidence ($38 for three photos!), then there's every possibility that the photos cindy crawley used to accompany her article indeed misrepresent - grossly - the condition of the dogs at the time of confiscation. i give her kudos for not trying to claim at pf that those were the photos sent to her by county officials.
> 
> normally no one's mind gets changed by threads of this kind. i am sorry to say mine has - about the credibility of the pca article, though not about the idea of keeping 90 dogs.
> 
> the weather is great where i am; looks like a wonderful beginning to 2015. hope everyone else can say the same!


Where did you get the idea that I paid $38 was for 3 photos? Did I say that? I have not counted how many photos there are. I chose the 3 that clearly demonstrated my point about more than one dog in a small crate. I think a lot of the problems with this forum is that everyone adds there own bit to the story and the story then becomes completely jumbled. 

It does not matter to me what you think of the article I wrote. The fact remains about Ms. Liddington/DeRosa. She has been convicted of animal cruelty. And my article did not have a singe thing to do with it.


----------



## Cindy Crawley

Tiny Poodles said:


> So glad that you obtained the photographs through the proper channels, proving that they are legit.
> 
> Now please address the fact that the condition of the dogs in the transport crates is congruent with the State's Veterinary Witness, and the polar opposite of how you described them in the article and the photographs of the severely neglected dogs that accompanied that article?!
> Please explain how that is not proof that your article was intentionally misleading!
> 
> We are also waiting for your explanation as to why you drastically increased your claim as to the number of dogs that Lynn owned between writing that article and the present time.


I have no idea what your are referring to when you claim that I drastically increased the number of dogs and I have no intention of searching through the jumbled mess of this thread to try to sort it out. 

I have previously and very CLEARLY stated that I cannot comment on the testimony of any of the witnesses because I was not part of the process. I attended the trial. For anyone to speculate or infer meaning from what was unsaid is preposterous.

I am really tired of the "gotcha" game here.
Calling my signature line into question? Really? Stating that I am mean and sarcastic when I ask you if you can read? Really? I asked for a reason. Because I have said the same thing over and over. And I get tired of keywhacking my signature. Most of you hide behind pseudonyms so just what is your purpose of calling my signature or lack thereof into question?

The moderator says she is tired of this going on and on and she should be. Who can blame her? She said she is going to pull the thread. Good. She should. I for one would welcome that. 

Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue


----------



## patk

cindy, i never accused you of instigating the charges against lynn d. but the article you wrote and the photos you used to support what you wrote painted a truly dire picture of the conditions in which the dogs were kept. the state vet's testimony says otherwise and your response to questions has not helped your case. threatening to sue - and i guess that must mean pf and its mods, or plumcrazy wouldn't have posted as she did - because people are questioning your assertions also sounds pretty desperate. certainly plumcrazy didn't take kindly to it and i suspect others are a bit shocked. i was never a supporter of dalin's breeding practices to begin with, and tp knows that and has known from day one that i questioned her about dalin. but i don't believe in kicking people without reason. so far, i think tiny has made a pretty good case that the conditions in which lynn d's dogs were found were wrongfully depicted and there is reason to question the photos that accompanied your article. that's a fundamental issue that we can't get around by name calling, threats of litigation, or, so far, anything else that's been said.


----------



## Chagall's mom

Wonder if there's a self-help group for this?! :banghead:


----------



## Tiny Poodles

patk said:


> cindy, i never accused you of instigating the charges against lynn d. but the article you wrote and the photos you used to support what you wrote painted a truly dire picture of the conditions in which the dogs were kept. the state vet's testimony says otherwise and your response to questions has not helped your case. threatening to sue - and i guess that must mean pf and its mods, or plumcrazy wouldn't have posted as she did - because people are questioning your assertions also sounds pretty desperate. certainly plumcrazy didn't take kindly to it and i suspect others are a bit shocked. i was never a supporter of dalin's breeding practices to begin with, and tp knows that and has known from day one that i questioned her about dalin. but i don't believe in kicking people without reason. so far, i think tiny has made a pretty good case that the conditions in which lynn d's dogs were found were wrongfully depicted and there is reason to question the photos that accompanied your article. that's a fundamental issue that we can't get around by name calling, threats of litigation, or, so far, anything else that's been said.



Thank you so much for being the voice of reason and clarity once again!


----------



## Poodlerunner

Chagall's mom said:


> Wonder if there's a self-help group for this?! :banghead:


Yes there is. It's called:


----------



## PoodlePaws

There a lot of times when I don't like where a certain thread is going and I just stop following it. No matter how intense the need to view it, I give it a few hrs and it passes and I am on my way. The good thing about this country of USA is that we have freedom of speech. People should be able to say whatever they want.


----------



## patk

poodlepaws, i once made the mistake of calling for a thread to be closed; but then keeping it open gave someone the opportunity to put right something she had said that seriously upset someone else. freedom of speech in the u.s. is actually limited by laws against slander, libel, defamation and things like inciting to riot. but otherwise, you are right on. i'm sure a lot of folks are simply putting this thread on ignore, too. anyone unhappy with the things being said could easily do the same. ironic that the person who complained about having to have the last word may, in fact, have been trying to have the last word! :doh::biggrin1:


----------



## PoodlePaws

Well I love everyone here. Happy new year!


----------



## Tiny Poodles

It always seems ridiculous to me when someone calls for a thread to end - isn't discussion what the forum is for? If folks still feel like the have something to say, why on earth not let them say it!

By the way, I started the thread, so I get the final word, so you all just let me know when you are done and ready for it ;-)


----------



## Tiny Poodles

And the Last Words Are : 
Don't believe everything that you read on the internet, no matter how seemingly reliable the source.

If this long and winding thread has left you with questions about Lynn DeRosa & Dalin Kennels, please private message myself or InSizeToy as we are the only two people on this entire thread who actually know Lynn DeRosa and own Dalin Poodles ( each of us currently own two because we went back for more after we lost our first beloved Dalins).

Or better yet, give Lynn a call and arrange a time to go visit her and her poodles - she always has, and she always will welcome everyone to do so!


----------



## TrixieTreasure

Tiny Poodles said:


> As I understand it, she is reducing her numbers, but she plans to build a brand new, though smaller scale kennel at her new home and continue to breed. Maybe UKC, I am not sure, and as a pet buyer, I don't really care - I only care that When I am ready for another poodle, it will be a Dalin. After sharing my life with 3 incredible Dalins over the past 15 years, I could not imagine settling for anything less...



I commend you for all that you have said about Lynn, but I don't understand why she doesn't come here herself and explain all of these accusations against her, and to put all of this to rest. If she truly has been vindicated, one would think that she would definitely want to come onto this forum and set the record straight once and for all. 
I'm wanting to start my research into finding a good breeder of Toy Poodles, and it is only because of your high recommendation of the Dalins, and your trust in Lynn, is why I thought I would start with her first. But after finding out about all of this, I'm beginning to have second thoughts. I'm not interested in messaging her personally about this, nor am I interested in talking with you personally, so please don't PM me or email me. Because of your history toward me from the past, I'm not interested in talking with you outside of a public forum. I just feel that instead of you talking FOR her, I wish she would come here and talk for herself.
Kathy ( HeartRose4)


----------



## MiniPoo

Kathy, if you don't want to buy a dog from Dalin, do not. Lynn is under no obligation to read or post to this forum just because you wish it. The forum moderator said in January that if we didn't have something nice to say about people on this forum not to post. You are not adding anything new to this discussion -- just stirring the pot.

Yet you feel the need to re-open this issue that parties on both sides will never agree with each other.

So here we go again.....


----------



## poodlecrazy#1

I just want to add that from my understanding this breeder is not that experienced with computers or something and probably would have a hard time getting on the forum to respond to this thread.


----------



## PoodlePaws

Seriously?? This was put to bed nearly 5 months ago. ?


----------



## TrixieTreasure

MiniPoo said:


> Kathy, if you don't want to buy a dog from Dalin, do not. Lynn is under no obligation to read or post to this forum just because you wish it. The forum moderator said in January that if we didn't have something nice to say about people on this forum not to post. You are not adding anything new to this discussion -- just stirring the pot.
> 
> Yet you feel the need to re-open this issue that parties on both sides will never agree with each other.
> 
> So here we go again.....


Oh no. I sincerely apologize. I certainly didn't know I was reopening anything. This forum is new to me, and this discussion is also new to me. I didn't know anything about this situation until today when I started to do a Google search on Dalin Kennels, and this forum came up. I started reading some of the posts, and I never found a conclusion to the situation. Therefore, I didn't know I was stirring any pot, and certainly didn't mean to. I do remember reading somewhere today where one of the senior members was alluding to the fact that perhaps the breeder herself should come on here and explain, instead of having one of the members speaking for her. I agreed with that, and I assumed it was okay for me to say it also. Again I apologize as I didn't know that this discussion was over. It's not that I don't want to buy a dog from Dalin, but I would like to know if there was an outcome to the allegations. I would like to make an informative decision on whether or not I want to spend my time and efforts in pursuing buying a dog from this breeder. If someone could just direct me on where I can find legal documentations concerning this breeder, then that's all that I really need at this time. Once again, my apologies.
Kathy


----------



## patk

if, as you said, you googled, you do know what happened. so what you're doing is called trolling. i believe that's prohibited if you want to continue participating at pf. 

hope you find the toy you're looking for.


----------



## TrixieTreasure

patk said:


> if, as you said, you googled, you do know what happened. so what you're doing is called trolling. i believe that's prohibited if you want to continue participating at pf.
> 
> hope you find the toy you're looking for.


No, I don't know what happened, just what I've read on this forum. I haven't Googled anything else as I've been on this forum most of the day trying to get an understanding of what the facts are. Other than my mistake of not knowing that the thread is old and the discussion has been over with, I believe I have a right to share my opinions, like everyone else. I assure you, there's no trolling on my part.


----------



## ericwd9

Kathy Ann said:


> No, I don't know what happened, just what I've read on this forum. I haven't Googled anything else as I've been on this forum most of the day trying to get an understanding of what the facts are. Other than my mistake of not knowing that the thread is old and the discussion has been over with, I believe I have a right to share my opinions, like everyone else. I assure you, there's no trolling on my part.


Your opinions are valued here. But opinions that liable or vindicate liable can be seen to be inflammatory. Please share your opinions but not those concerning others or their ethics. Criticism or even adulation of a specific breeder can inflame those who might disagree with you. Here we value all additions but not too much personal-ism. I think you got burned.
Eric:angel2:


----------



## patk

eric, don't feed the troll. that's a basic principle of internet forums. google dalin kennels and see what the first thread is that comes up on pf. no way someone who googled doesn't know and happened.


----------



## TrixieTreasure

ericwd9 said:


> Your opinions are valued here. But opinions that liable or vindicate liable can be seen to be inflammatory. Please share your opinions but not those concerning others or their ethics. Criticism or even adulation of a specific breeder can inflame those who might disagree with you. Here we value all additions but not too much personal-ism. I think you got burned.
> Eric:angel2:


Thank you and I do agree with you. As I've already said, I apologize for not already knowing that this thread and discussion was closed. I didn't see anything stating that it was closed, but I'm new here and I haven't figured everything out yet.
With that, I will leave this discussion, and I'll just continue searching the Internet on my own to find out the truth about this breeder, and then decide if I want to move forward in contacting her. Thanks.


----------



## TrixieTreasure

patk said:


> eric, don't feed the troll. that's a basic principle of internet forums. google dalin kennels and see what the first thread is that comes up on pf. no way someone who googled doesn't know and happened.


I certainly do NOT APPRECIATE being called a troll, and if you continue to do so, I will continue calling you out on it. I am a real person who has owned Toy Poodles since 1977. I have loved the breed forever. My last little girl passed away in 2013, and I have just recently been thinking about getting another Poodle. I knew that someone swore by Dalin Kennels and the breeder, so Dalin Kennels is where I started my search this weekend. The first thing that came up was this forum. I saw something about a 10 year suspension of the breeder, and I saw a lot of arguing back and forth, so I wanted to find out what was happening. I've read a lot of posts, but nothing to actually give me documentations of what the truth is. Therefore, if I want to get in on the discussion and try to get more information on this breeder, I have every right to post my opinions. There is no trolling going on, and I will not allow you, or anyone, to call me a troll. 
Kathy


----------



## ericwd9

Kathy Ann said:


> I certainly do NOT APPRECIATE being called a troll, and if you continue to do so, I will continue calling you out on it. I am a real person who has owned Toy Poodles since 1977. I have loved the breed forever. My last little girl passed away in 2013, and I have just recently been thinking about getting another Poodle. I knew that someone swore by Dalin Kennels and the breeder, so Dalin Kennels is where I started my search this weekend. The first thing that came up was this forum. I saw something about a 10 year suspension of the breeder, and I saw a lot of arguing back and forth, so I wanted to find out what was happening. I've read a lot of posts, but nothing to actually give me documentations of what the truth is. Therefore, if I want to get in on the discussion and try to get more information on this breeder, I have every right to post my opinions. There is no trolling going on, and I will not allow you, or anyone, to call me a troll.
> Kathy


You will rarely get to the real truth concerning any persons inpropriety, on a forum or the web in general. You will get opinions. Some good, some bad. If you want truth, then go see for yourself. It is quite difficult for agencies to prosecute a greeder. When successful it is usually because of a lot of evidence of misconduct. Small infractions are usually ignored or cause for warnings. It pays to listen a lot and say a little.
Eric:angel2:


----------



## TrixieTreasure

ericwd9 said:


> You will rarely get to the real truth concerning any persons inpropriety, on a forum or the web in general. You will get opinions. Some good, some bad. If you want truth, then go see for yourself. It is quite difficult for agencies to prosecute a greeder. When successful it is usually because of a lot of evidence of misconduct. Small infractions are usually ignored or cause for warnings. It pays to listen a lot and say a little.
> Eric:angel2:


Thank you for your post Eric.


----------



## patk

three posts since first signing up and the third in this thread, calling out the op by her first name - also prohibited per pf rules, as cited by plumcrazy, when someone is using a handle. don't recall seeing the op referred to in this thread by her first name by anyone else or seeing her giving permission to anyone to use her real name. seems there's some history there. just laying out some facts. folks can judge for themselves.


----------



## TrixieTreasure

patk said:


> three posts since first signing up and the third in this thread, calling out the op by her first name - also prohibited per pf rules, as cited by plumcrazy, when someone is using a handle. don't recall seeing the op referred to in this thread by her first name by anyone else or seeing her giving permission to anyone to use her real name. seems there's some history there. just laying out some facts. folks can judge for themselves.


Where are the Poodle Forum Rules that I need to be abide by? Because I want to know what's permissible and what's not. I believe very strongly in abiding by the rules on message board forums, so I do apologize for this mistake. I had no idea I wasn't suppose to use a person's first name. She's the reason why I'm interested in contacting this breeder ( because of her high respect for the breeder), and I do know her, so I automatically called her by her name. I didn't know I couldn't. 
Kathy


----------



## Carley's Mom

Old threads get brought up all the time... what's wrong with that. I happen to like it. The more people that find out about this breeder the better.


----------



## patk

carleys mom, i am not objecting to bringing up and old thread. i am questioning the motive of the person who did so. she herself has just admitted there is history with the op, so it seems it's not really about information seeking. why not post in the thread chagall's mom started about dalin if it's all about info? why start an "inquiry" post with a personal attack on the op - and by the way, personal attacks are also frowned upon by the mods, or so they have said. freedom to express one's opinion does not include cyberstalking or cyberbullying, whether one agrees with the op or not.


----------



## MiniPoo

Kathy Ann said:


> Where are the Poodle Forum Rules that I need to be abide by? Because I want to know what's permissible and what's not. I believe very strongly in abiding by the rules on message board forums, so I do apologize for this mistake. I had no idea I wasn't suppose to use a person's first name. She's the reason why I'm interested in contacting this breeder ( because of her high respect for the breeder), and I do know her, so I automatically called her by her name. I didn't know I couldn't.
> Kathy


Here are the forum rules that are listed under New Members. I had to ask where they were myself when I first joined.

Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too! - Announcements in Forum : Member Introductions


----------



## TrixieTreasure

patk said:


> carleys mom, i am not objecting to bringing up and old thread. i am questioning the motive of the person who did so. she herself has just admitted there is history with the op, so it seems it's not really about information seeking. why not post in the thread chagall's mom started about dalin if it's all about info? why start an "inquiry" post with a personal attack on the op - and by the way, personal attacks are also frowned upon by the mods, or so they have said. freedom to express one's opinion does not include cyberstalking or cyberbullying, whether one agrees with the op or not.


Whoa, wait a minute here, I take great offense to your post! Where did I 'personally attack' the other poster? Show me proof please. The truth is, I didn't. That's not me. I don't do that kind of crap. Other people have done it to me, but I don't do it back. I simply reply in defense of myself when someone is attacking ME--- which seems to be what I'm having to do here now. I started out reading the other thread, and then I saw this one, stating that the breeder was being vindicated. Therefore this thread was where I wanted to be. I wanted to find out the facts of why she was being vindicated. Besides, there's no rule as to where a poster has to start reading and posting. I think I started reading this thread on page 8 or 9 ( somewhere around there). If I don't want to read the other thread, that's my right. Who are you to tell me how I'm suppose to use this forum???
It seems to me that you're just trying to start a fight with a new poster who hasn't learned her way around this forum yet. It also seems to me that you're trying to bully me. Just so you know, I always stand up to bullies. 
As for your other accusations, I have already explained why I started my first post in response to the other poster. I know her ( not personally, just on forums), and I know how much she's dedicated to this breeder. Because I'm interested in possibly going with this breeder for my next puppy, and because I know her, it was within my right to respond to her post in the way that I did. I did nothing wrong except to restart a thread that I didn't know had already died out.
Kathy


----------



## poolann

Kathy Ann just for future reference there is a date on each post which will help you to know how old the thread is. Also if it is a thread similar to this where maybe some controversy occurred then you can always use the PM feature to ask the OP or anyone else questions. I realize that you are new to the forum & did not know this 

On another note, PatK is a very supportive member & I'm sorry things seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot. The best bet is for everyone to move on & let this thread die out again.


----------



## TrixieTreasure

MiniPoo said:


> Here are the forum rules that are listed under New Members. I had to ask where they were myself when I first joined.
> 
> Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too! - Announcements in Forum : Member Introductions


THANK YOU! I remember going to Member Introductions. I remember reading something about that a new member had to make 1 post in member introductions before they could post within the rest of the forum. I did that, but didn't see the forum rules. I'm used to the FB forums, and also the old AOL forums. This forum seems quite overwhelming to me. But I'm sure I'm catch on.
Thanks again.
Kathy


----------



## patk

actually, "new poster," if you look at your original intro post, you will find that i am one of those who welcomed you by thanking you for introducing yourself. very few newcomers then start out with their third post on a forum (and the first after the obligatory intro thread) by calling someone out, telling them they don't want to hear from them due to the past, etc. seems like a personal attack to me and totally uncalled for. as i said, others can judge for themselves.


----------



## TrixieTreasure

poolann said:


> Kathy Ann just for future reference there is a date on each post which will help you to know how old the thread is. Also if it is a thread similar to this where maybe some controversy occurred then you can always use the PM feature to ask the OP or anyone else questions. I realize that you are new to the forum & did not know this
> 
> On another note, PatK is a very supportive member & I'm sorry things seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot. The best bet is for everyone to move on & let this thread die out again.


Thanks for that info. I found out about the date for the posts when someone was kind enough to PM me early this morning. I do see where that is now.

And I do apologize for being a little hotheaded in some of my posts. However, having someone insinuate that I'm a troll and a bully just really bothers me. I can't stand people who are bullies, and in fact, I always stand up for those who are being bullied. If any of you knew me personally, you would know that.
I agree about moving on, and letting this thread die out ( again). Thank you.
Kathy


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

Maybe I'm missing something. But I don't think you should be accused of being a troll from information taken from this thread only. If there's something from somewhere else, that is not suppose to be brought over here. I do grow tired of character critiquing on forums that some people feel compelled and entitled to do regularly. So what kind of Poodle is it you're looking for exactly? I've read this over a couple days and I forget things quickly.


----------



## TrixieTreasure

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Maybe I'm missing something. But I don't think you should be accused of being a troll from information taken from this thread only. If there's something from somewhere else, that is not suppose to be brought over here. I do grow tired of character critiquing on forums that some people feel compelled and entitled to do regularly. So what kind of Poodle is it you're looking for exactly? I've read this over a couple days and I forget things quickly.


Thank you for your post. I appreciate it. I'm not trying to start anything back up again, but I do want to say that honestly, I can see now that there was something in my original post that didn't need to be said, and I would like to take responsibility for that. I realize now that I should have left that part out. By me saying it though, it certainly didn't mean that I was a troll or a bully. Accusing me as such is why I got upset. I'm an easy going person, honest, and caring, and all anyone needed to do was just share with me what they thought perhaps was not the right thing to say. I do sometimes say things without really thinking them through completely. My husband can certainly attest to that, lol. 


Kathy


----------



## MiniPoo

Kathy, I think you have apologized for whatever you said that might have offended anybody. A lot of people do not do that. 

Can you start another thread (rather than continue this one) where you tell us more about the poodle you are looking for? I have already appreciated the thread you started about epilepsy in poodles.


----------



## TrixieTreasure

MiniPoo said:


> Kathy, I think you have apologized for whatever you said that might have offended anybody. A lot of people do not do that.
> 
> Can you start another thread (rather than continue this one) where you tell us more about the poodle you are looking for? I have already appreciated the thread you started about epilepsy in poodles.


Yes. Thank you.


----------



## Poodlerunner

Kathy Ann said:


> I'm not interested in messaging her personally about this, ( HeartRose4)


so what I am hearing from this is that you would rather talk about her than to her one on one. To me that makes no sense...

also, publicly stating that you don't want to talk to TP? I don't get the point of coming on a forum (that she is a long standing member of) and say something like that. 

Whatever. I am apologizing in advance if I misunderstood.

pr


----------



## TrixieTreasure

Poodlerunner said:


> so what I am hearing from this is that you would rather talk about her than to her one on one. To me that makes no sense...
> 
> also, publicly stating that you don't want to talk to TP? I don't get the point of coming on a forum (that she is a long standing member of) and say something like that.
> 
> Whatever. I am apologizing in advance if I misunderstood.
> 
> pr


I was talking to TP when I made that post, and I simply meant that I wanted to keep any correspondence strictly on the forum, and not have anything in private. I wasn't talking ABOUT her, I was talking TO her, on this forum.
Kathy


----------



## Poodlerunner

Kathy Ann said:


> I was talking to TP when I made that post, and I simply meant that I wanted to keep any correspondence strictly on the forum, and not have anything in private. I wasn't talking ABOUT her, I was talking TO her, on this forum.
> Kathy


That right there is odd. Sorry.

what about not wanting to talk TO LD? Why not? If you want to know about someone, reading on the internet can be hit or miss, and in this case, there are two wildly opposing sides. 

Good luck dear in your search for a puppy.

pr


----------



## TrixieTreasure

Poodlerunner said:


> That right there is odd. Sorry.
> 
> what about not wanting to talk TO LD? Why not? If you want to know about someone, reading on the internet can be hit or miss, and in this case, there are two wildly opposing sides.
> 
> Good luck dear in your search for a puppy.
> 
> pr


After reading a lot of negative comments on this forum about the breeder, I wasn't interested in having that first contact with her ( on a personal level) until I found out more about the whole situation. Sorry if you find that odd, but that's the way I prefer to do things. Because TP has always talked very highly of her in every forum that I've seen, I thought I would start my search with this particular breeder. What I found when I Googled her name was people talking about her on this forum. A lot of negative stuff. It turned me off about her.

Besides that, I'm thinking now that I need to be doing my searching closer to home. Somewhere where I may be able to visit the breeder in person and establish a good relationship with her.


----------



## Poodlerunner

Kathy Ann said:


> Besides that, I'm thinking now that I need to be doing my searching closer to home. Somewhere where I may be able to visit the breeder in person and establish a good relationship with her.


good idea. do keep us posted now 

pr


----------



## TrixieTreasure

Poodlerunner said:


> good idea. do keep us posted now
> 
> pr


Thank you. I will.


----------

