# Crabapple downs poodles -- does anyone know of them --



## lehtinen (Oct 22, 2018)

the place looks great on website and they seem to have a variety....michele


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

They have too many dogs in the opinion of many here. Search older posts and threads on PF. You will see some old recommendations and newer cautions.

Looke at this thread for great advice on selecting a really good breeder. https://www.poodleforum.com/threads/buying-a-puppy-safely-the-basics.33522/


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Am I reading the website right — SIX October litters???? 

And the way they describe their "retiring breeders" makes me wonder how socialized the puppies would be.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Crabapple is HORRIBLE.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Remember, the website of someone who has nothing better to do than sell sell sell can be super fancy, extra pretty, and highly appealing.

While the website of a scholar or another devoted to a higher calling and who must work to support his/her theses with science and evidence may not be as up to date, or utilize the newest technology.

Many will be well advised to consider this concept with regards to dog breeders as well ?.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I just read some scathing things about this breeder from a 2016 Poodle Forum thread. I can't believe they're still in business. Makes my stomach hurt


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

NO....


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## lehtinen (Oct 22, 2018)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I just read some scathing things about this breeder from a 2016 Poodle Forum thread. I can't believe they're still in business. Makes my stomach hurt


They are really alive and well!!! Still breeding and from what I have learned, producing many litters, and dogs are in pens which really surprised me as their website looks wonderful and got the idea that they are all in a big wonderful bldg in and out, playing with each other all the time....but not true i guess --have not been there and won't as i got my poodle from the local shelter here.


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## JBM (Feb 23, 2021)

We would give Arlene Mills and Crabapple Downs less than 1 Star if the rating system allowed. Do not purchase your Standard Poodle from her. We made a long drive to Colebrook, NH very excited about picking up our beautiful parti-colored pup whom Arlene had named Freckles. He was from the the Flora Dora-Fraser line. Things seemed somewhat off from the beginning. He was one of the older puppies she had. After seeing the very primitive dog pen areas and learning according to Arlene, there were 75 poodle parents and puppies on the property, we were somewhat reluctant to take Freckles. But, we thought, "How can we leave him here?" He was a cute puppy and after some hesitation, we took him. Arlene sent us home with Metronidazole tablets for diarrhea, which she anticipated he may have from leaving a secluded, sheltered environment. He got carsick 4 times on the way home to Massachusetts. He did, in fact, have diarrhea. He had a vet appointment the day after we got him, and I remember clearly the vet saying, "Healthy puppies don't have diarrhea or need Metronidazole, what did the breeder say was the problem, what vet prescribed it, can you contact her and see why?" Freckles was extremely timid, fearful and shy, and I also recall the vet saying, "You're going to have your hands full with him, he's not a normal happy, tail-wagging, happy go lucky puppy." Freckles was afraid of his own shadow from the beginning and that never went away. A floating leaf would send him scurrying. He was mortified by friendly strangers who wanted to meet him. He did bond with us and was sweet, but he it took great patience and he remained extremely skittish and OCD his entire short life, even with several puppy and obedience classes and socialization attempts. It was his health that was truly his biggest problem. Immediately, we noticed he couldn't have a bowel movement without squat-walking. He would literally leave a trail. It was the only way he could go to the bathroom. Freckles was always had diarrhea. His condition according to the vet was not parasitic. He was on prescription food often to bulk up his stools. When he 2, he began to have eye infections and redness of the conjunctiva. During an exam, our vet noticed his eyelids were rolling inward. He explained it was is a genetic condition. As a result, Freckles lower eyelids were being pulled downward and the inward rolling was causing his fur to scratch his eyeballs. He had to see an eye specialist in Boston and required 2 surgeries. The surgeon reiterated to us that this was a genetic condition. At 3, Freckles had 4 episodes of massive, uncontrollable diarrhea. He was also losing weight. The vet sent him back to Boston, this time to a gastrointestinal specialist. After scoping him, we learned he had advanced cancer - lymphoma of his stomach and intestines. Because he was so young and we were told that dogs handle treatment much better than humans, let alone that we were not ready to say goodbye, we opted for a round of chemotherapy. Freckles' chemotherapy was well-tolerated. He re-gained weight, his stools normalized, he was able to go for long walks, and other than losing all his hair, which did grow back, he seemed like himself. Just as the oncologist predicted though, his symptoms and cancer came back at 13 months after remission. We made the heartbreaking decision to "let him go" then. No more chemotherapy because with his cancer, it would not cure him. We were so sad. What burned us badly were a few things. Obviously, the health problems. But, when I called Arlene to let her know, she had the audacity to say it was something that happened to Freckles as a result of the food we fed him, or vaccinating, or fertilizing the grass in our yard. When I related our vet and oncologist indicated it was genetic, she admitted, there had been 1 case of lymphoma in one of the breeding lines. Subsequently, while at the specialty animal hospital, I met several other standard poodles will illnesses and their owners, and guess what, they came from Crabapple Downs. Freckles was my 4th Standard Poodle. We treat our dogs like family members. They lack for nothing, routinely see the vet and have had pet health insurance. All of them lived to be 12-15 years old. What happened to Freckles was not related to anything we did. That comment was just so offensive. Avoid the heartbreak, no matter how cute the puppy, or all the hype you hear about the reunions at Poodle Mountain, do yourself a huge favor, don't press your luck or your finances on costly surgeries and medical treatment, just go to a reputable breeder for your puppy. It still haunts me to this day what happened to Freckles. He died just after he turned 5.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

I'm so sorry that you had to learn about irresponsible breeders in such a harsh way . I am so sorry about your Freckles.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

JBM said:


> We would give Arlene Mills and Crabapple Downs less than 1 Star if the rating system allowed. Do not purchase your Standard Poodle from her. We made a long drive to Colebrook, NH very excited about picking up our beautiful parti-colored pup whom Arlene had named Freckles. He was from the the Flora Dora-Fraser line. Things seemed somewhat off from the beginning. He was one of the older puppies she had. After seeing the very primitive dog pen areas and learning according to Arlene, there were 75 poodle parents and puppies on the property, we were somewhat reluctant to take Freckles. But, we thought, "How can we leave him here?" He was a cute puppy and after some hesitation, we took him. Arlene sent us home with Metronidazole tablets for diarrhea, which she anticipated he may have from leaving a secluded, sheltered environment. He got carsick 4 times on the way home to Massachusetts. He did, in fact, have diarrhea. He had a vet appointment the day after we got him, and I remember clearly the vet saying, "Healthy puppies don't have diarrhea or need Metronidazole, what did the breeder say was the problem, what vet prescribed it, can you contact her and see why?" Freckles was extremely timid, fearful and shy, and I also recall the vet saying, "You're going to have your hands full with him, he's not a normal happy, tail-wagging, happy go lucky puppy." Freckles was afraid of his own shadow from the beginning and that never went away. A floating leaf would send him scurrying. He was mortified by friendly strangers who wanted to meet him. He did bond with us and was sweet, but he it took great patience and he remained extremely skittish and OCD his entire short life, even with several puppy and obedience classes and socialization attempts. It was his health that was truly his biggest problem. Immediately, we noticed he couldn't have a bowel movement without squat-walking. He would literally leave a trail. It was the only way he could go to the bathroom. Freckles was always had diarrhea. His condition according to the vet was not parasitic. He was on prescription food often to bulk up his stools. When he 2, he began to have eye infections and redness of the conjunctiva. During an exam, our vet noticed his eyelids were rolling inward. He explained it was is a genetic condition. As a result, Freckles lower eyelids were being pulled downward and the inward rolling was causing his fur to scratch his eyeballs. He had to see an eye specialist in Boston and required 2 surgeries. The surgeon reiterated to us that this was a genetic condition. At 3, Freckles had 4 episodes of massive, uncontrollable diarrhea. He was also losing weight. The vet sent him back to Boston, this time to a gastrointestinal specialist. After scoping him, we learned he had advanced cancer - lymphoma of his stomach and intestines. Because he was so young and we were told that dogs handle treatment much better than humans, let alone that we were not ready to say goodbye, we opted for a round of chemotherapy. Freckles' chemotherapy was well-tolerated. He re-gained weight, his stools normalized, he was able to go for long walks, and other than losing all his hair, which did grow back, he seemed like himself. Just as the oncologist predicted though, his symptoms and cancer came back at 13 months after remission. We made the heartbreaking decision to "let him go" then. No more chemotherapy because with his cancer, it would not cure him. We were so sad. What burned us badly were a few things. Obviously, the health problems. But, when I called Arlene to let her know, she had the audacity to say it was something that happened to Freckles as a result of the food we fed him, or vaccinating, or fertilizing the grass in our yard. When I related our vet and oncologist indicated it was genetic, she admitted, there had been 1 case of lymphoma in one of the breeding lines. Subsequently, while at the specialty animal hospital, I met several other standard poodles will illnesses and their owners, and guess what, they came from Crabapple Downs. Freckles was my 4th Standard Poodle. We treat our dogs like family members. They lack for nothing, routinely see the vet and have had pet health insurance. All of them lived to be 12-15 years old. What happened to Freckles was not related to anything we did. That comment was just so offensive. Avoid the heartbreak, no matter how cute the puppy, or all the hype you hear about the reunions at Poodle Mountain, do yourself a huge favor, don't press your luck or your finances on costly surgeries and medical treatment, just go to a reputable breeder for your puppy. It still haunts me to this day what happened to Freckles. He died just after he turned 5.


I'm so sorry to hear your heartbreaking story. As hard as all this has been, it's such a blessing that Freckles had you for his family, and you'll have that love always in your heart.


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## JBM (Feb 23, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> I'm so sorry to hear your heartbreaking story. As hard as all this has been, it's such a blessing that Freckles had you for his family, and you'll have that love always in your heart.


Thank you for such kind words.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

You're welcome. We'll be here.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I'm so sorry to read this, JBM. Thank you for sharing Freckles' story. There's a poodle rescue in the SE _still_ taking her dogs and bailing her out.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Liz said:


> I'm so sorry to read this, JBM. Thank you for sharing Freckles' story. There's a poodle rescue in the SE _still_ taking her dogs and bailing her out.


I am sorry to hear she is supported by a rescue to this day. The only way to stop a situation as is reported here is to give no market opportunity.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

JBM said:


> We would give Arlene Mills and Crabapple Downs less than 1 Star if the rating system allowed. Do not purchase your Standard Poodle from her.


I am so, so sorry you had such a terrible experience. I am even more sorry for the poor dogs. It might be useful to report her to AKC if the conditions at her place are not good. All AKC can do is withdraw registration privileges, but that might be a good start. Reporting to ASPCA is an option, too, if the conditions are bad.


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## LLC (Feb 27, 2021)

Bought our standard poodle from Crabapple 10 years ago and he has been the delight of our lives. This forum verifies our concerns about going back for a second poodle. We are looking for moyen poodle from a good breeder in New England. Any suggestions.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

LLC said:


> We are looking for moyen poodle from a good breeder in New England. Any suggestions.


We have many members in your region. Rather than tack onto this thread, you may have better luck starting a new thread and letting people know that you're looking for a small standard in New England (the moyen/klein is not a recognized size in the US).


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Liz said:


> We have many members in your region. Rather than tack onto this thread, you may have better luck starting a new thread and letting people know that you're looking for a small standard in New England (the moyen/klein is not a recognized size in the US).


Yes, Moyen/Klein is NOT a recognized size in the US. So if anyone is advertising as such, beware. I am so glad you are looking elsewhere, and very glad that your first dog actually worked out. If it were me I would be willing to go far beyond New England. Best of luck for sure


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm not aware of anyone in New England currently breeding true moyens. I've heard Doe Valley sometimes produces small standards; they are a well regarded Massachusetts kennel. 

Outside New England probably the top regarded Moyen breeder would be Karbit in Texas. Great Lakes Kennel in Michigan also has a Moyen program; I don't know much about it other than it exists. Moonrise in South Carolina occasionally produces Moyen-sized dogs and seems to be pretty serious about health testing. Noir in Missouri also seems to produce Moyens; it's another kennel I don't know much about other than it exists.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Nope on Moyens as far as I know. Why would you want one? "The *Moyen* Poodle falls in-between the Miniature and Standard Poodle size. *Not an official AKC size* variation, however has become popular outside the USA. Height: 16-20 inches (38-50 cm.) Weight: 20-35 pounds (9-13 kg.) " 

Is it a fad?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

kontiki said:


> Nope on Moyens as far as I know. Why would you want one? "The *Moyen* Poodle falls in-between the Miniature and Standard Poodle size. *Not an official AKC size* variation, however has become popular outside the USA. Height: 16-20 inches (38-50 cm.) Weight: 20-35 pounds (9-13 kg.) "
> 
> Is it a fad?


I think Moyens are, in some ways, a fad - but it's born from a reasonable desire for a medium sized dog. 15"-19" is a great size: big enough to handle rough and tumble activities, small enough to be bathed in a utility sink afterwards. It's a size common in barn dogs: I've seen a lot of Australian cattle dogs and miniature Aussies that size at horse barns. A Moyen sized poodle will also fall under the 35 pound limit I've seen on some condo deed restrictions, especially in 55+ housing developments. I was looking for this size when I started the hunt that ultimately got me Pogo and Snarky years ago. What I found then is still pretty much true today: very few breeders are aiming for the small end of the standard poodle range. So, a pet buyer looking for a Moyen sized dog pretty much has take their chances on finding a miniature that went oversize or hoping a small standard puppy will stay small. While I wasn't looking for a Moyen this time around, I essentially played those odds with Galen. I chose the smallest pup from smaller but well bred parents in a show kennel. What I got was a 24" dog that will probably mature at 50-55 pounds. He's a lovely boy, but he's most definitely not a Moyen sized dog.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

You raise good points. I tend to jump to the conclusion that a US buyer asking for moyens has merely heard the marketing term and isn't aware of the size classes or how they differ across regions. I tend to assume they mean a small standard, not necessarily a true moyen.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Larger miniatures will be moyen sized so you may see if you can find a miniature breeder pairing two dogs that are both over 14". That's what I did and my 15" dog was average sized for his litter.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Liz said:


> You raise good points. I tend to jump to the conclusion that a US buyer asking for moyens has merely heard the marketing term and isn't aware of the size classes or how they differ across regions. I tend to assume they mean a small standard, not necessarily a true moyen.


I think that's true too. If you've only seen the lurcher sized spoo so common in America these days, you don't realize that a normal sized spoo is not supposed to be able to rest his head on the dining room table. I think the same thing is true when it comes to teacup poodles. People don't realize that a normal toy poodle is pretty small; you don't need to go for teacup size in order to get a dog that could comfortably ride around in a bicycle messenger bag.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Breeders showing spoos don't generally aim for huge poodles. They aim for what judges will put up which is more like a dog that is centered +/- a couple of inches around 20" at the withers and somewhere in the 55 pound range.


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## AvianAddict (Mar 20, 2021)

JBM said:


> We would give Arlene Mills and Crabapple Downs less than 1 Star if the rating system allowed. Do not purchase your Standard Poodle from her. We made a long drive to Colebrook, NH very excited about picking up our beautiful parti-colored pup whom Arlene had named Freckles. He was from the the Flora Dora-Fraser line. Things seemed somewhat off from the beginning. He was one of the older puppies she had. After seeing the very primitive dog pen areas and learning according to Arlene, there were 75 poodle parents and puppies on the property, we were somewhat reluctant to take Freckles. But, we thought, "How can we leave him here?" He was a cute puppy and after some hesitation, we took him. Arlene sent us home with Metronidazole tablets for diarrhea, which she anticipated he may have from leaving a secluded, sheltered environment. He got carsick 4 times on the way home to Massachusetts. He did, in fact, have diarrhea. He had a vet appointment the day after we got him, and I remember clearly the vet saying, "Healthy puppies don't have diarrhea or need Metronidazole, what did the breeder say was the problem, what vet prescribed it, can you contact her and see why?" Freckles was extremely timid, fearful and shy, and I also recall the vet saying, "You're going to have your hands full with him, he's not a normal happy, tail-wagging, happy go lucky puppy." Freckles was afraid of his own shadow from the beginning and that never went away. A floating leaf would send him scurrying. He was mortified by friendly strangers who wanted to meet him. He did bond with us and was sweet, but he it took great patience and he remained extremely skittish and OCD his entire short life, even with several puppy and obedience classes and socialization attempts. It was his health that was truly his biggest problem. Immediately, we noticed he couldn't have a bowel movement without squat-walking. He would literally leave a trail. It was the only way he could go to the bathroom. Freckles was always had diarrhea. His condition according to the vet was nsitic. He was on prescription food often to bulk up his stools. When he 2, he began to have Things seemed somewhat off from the beginning. He was one of the older puppies she had. After seeing the very primitive dog pen areas and learning according to Arlene, there It was his health that was truly his biggest problem. Immediately, we noticed he couldn't have a bowel movement without squat-walking. He would literally leave a trail. It was the only way he could go to the bathroom. Freckles was always had diarrhea. His condition according to the vet was not parasitic. He was on prescription food often to bulk up his stools. When he 2, he began to have eye infections and redness of the conjunctiva. During an exam, our vet noticed his eyelids were rolling inward. He explained it was is a genetic condition. As a result, Freckles lower eyelids were being pulled downward and the inward rolling was causing his fur to scratch his eyeballs. He had to see an eye specialist in Boston and required 2 surgeries. The surgeon reiterated to us that this was a genetic condition. At 3, audacity to say it was something that happened to Freckles as a result of the food we fed him, or vaccinating, or fertilizing the grass in our yard. When I related our vet and oncologist indicated it was genetic, she admitted, there had been 1 case of lymphoma...





JBM said:


> We would give Arlene Mills and Crabapple Downs less than 1 Star if the rating system allowed. Do not purchase your Standard Poodle from her. We made a long drive to Colebrook, NH very excited about picking up our beautiful parti-colored pup whom Arlene had named Freckles. He was from the the Flora Dora-Fraser line. Things seemed somewhat off from the beginning. He was one of the older puppies she had. After seeing the very primitive dog pen areas and learning according to Arlene, there were 75 poodle parents and puppies on the property, we were somewhat reluctant to take Freckles. But, we thought, "How can we leave him here?" He was a cute puppy and after some hesitation, we took him. Arlene sent us home with Metronidazole tablets for diarrhea, which she anticipated he may have from leaving a secluded, sheltered environment. He got carsick 4 times on the way home to Massachusetts. He did, in fact, have diarrhea. He had a vet appointment the day after we got him, and I remember clearly the vet saying, "Healthy puppies don't have diarrhea or need Metronidazole, what did the breeder say was the problem, what vet prescribed it, can you contact her and see why?" Freckles was extremely timid, fearful and shy, and I also recall the vet saying, "You're going to have your hands full with him, he's not a normal happy, tail-wagging, happy go lucky puppy." Freckles was afraid of his own shadow from the beginning and that never went away. A floating leaf would send him scurrying. He was mortified by friendly strangers who wanted to meet him. He did bond with us and was sweet, but he it took great patience and he remained extremely skittish and OCD his entire short life, even with several puppy and obedience classes and socialization attempts. It was his health that was truly his biggest problem. Immediately, we noticed he couldn't have a bowel movement without squat-walking. He would literally leave a trail. It was the only way he could go to the bathroom. Freckles was always had diarrhea. His condition according to the vet was not parasitic. He was on prescription food often to bulk up his stools. When he 2, he began to have eye infections and redness of the conjunctiva. During an exam, our vet noticed his eyelids were rolling inward. He explained it was is a genetic condition. As a result, Freckles lower eyelids were being pulled downward and the inward rolling was causing his fur to scratch his eyeballs. He had to see an eye specialist in Boston and required 2 surgeries. The surgeon reiterated to us that this was a genetic condition. At 3, Freckles had 4 episodes of massive, uncontrollable diarrhea. He was also losing weight. The vet sent him back to Boston, this time to a gastrointestinal specialist. After scoping him, we learned he had advanced cancer - lymphoma of his stomach and intestines. Because he was so young and we were told that dogs handle treatment much better than humans, let alone that we were not ready to say goodbye, we opted for a round of chemotherapy. Freckles' chemotherapy was well-tolerated. He re-gained weight, his stools normalized, he was able to go for long walks, and other than losing all his hair, which did grow back, he seemed like himself. Just as the oncologist predicted though, his symptoms and cancer came back at 13 months after remission. We made the heartbreaking decision to "let him go" then. No more chemotherapy because with his cancer, it would not cure him. We were so sad. What burned us badly were a few things. Obviously, the health problems. But, when I called Arlene to let her know, she had the audacity to say it was something that happened to Freckles as a result of the food we fed him, or vaccinating, or fertilizing the grass in our yard. When I related our vet and oncologist indicated it was genetic, she admitted, there had been 1 case of lymphoma in one of the breeding lines. Subsequently, while at the specialty animal hospital, I met several other standard poodles will illnesses and their owners, and guess what, they came from Crabapple Downs. Freckles was my 4th Standard Poodle. We treat our dogs like family members. They lack for nothing, routinely see the vet and have had pet health insurance. All of them lived to be 12-15 years old. What happened to Freckles was not related to anything we did. That comment was just so offensive. Avoid the heartbreak, no matter how cute the puppy, or all the hype you hear about the reunions at Poodle Mountain, do yourself a huge favor, don't press your luck or your finances on costly surgeries and medical treatment, just go to a reputable breeder for your puppy. It still haunts me to this day what happened to Freckles. He died just after he turned 5.


I am so sorry. The pain, betrayal, deceit that you described could have been our story. Everything you described, the narcissistic personna, not taking responsibility, passing blame, disinformation, all of it, is well known by many. Did your vet check for campylobacter? Our 9 week old pup had diarrhea all the way home. We immediately phoned A.... can't even stand to type or say her name....and she asked what we had fed the puppy. Keep in mind, we were still in the car, still driving home. Her blaming game immediately began. The next morning, our pup was limp. Nonresponsive. Rushed him to the vet. Our vet phoned A, only to discover that the mother and all the littermates were dead. DEAD within 24 hours of us bringing our pup home! A, as usual, A had no answers. Just babble and blame. By a miracle, and a really great vet, our pup survived with treatment for campylobacter and a range of parasites including whip worm. Even after treatment, he struggled for 10 years, to have a decent bowel movement. He died a painful, awful death, his gastrointestinal system loaded with cancer. There are many studies showing the link between campylobacter and GI cancer. She is a narcissistic liar who continues to tell people she is unaware of the issue at her compound. No one can possibly control pathogens in her field or barn-pup containment conditions. Our second poodle, yes, we bought another, just died last July of lymphoma. At least this time I very intentionally made the decision to rescue a pup from her. He also had the genetic eye condition that you mentioned. Neither poodle lived beyond 10. See....the problem is, poodles inherently are the most amazing creature. Both our boys were loving, highly intelligent, but both took quite some time to display that innate ability. We worked long and hard to bring it out. I will never regret that they were a huge part of our lives. They both took huge chunks of our hearts. But I sure as heck regret they suffered so much because of backyard style breeding. A offered no sympathy, empathy or any kind emotion whatsoever. She continued to accuse us of diet, of lawn care chemicals. I can still picture her seated at her desk, pounding her fist on a pile of supposed research she'd performed on bloodlines, genetics, etc, claiming to be very knowledgeable in breeding science. Poppycock. Even if that were true, it doesn't matter. There is no way she can control pathogens, provide a safe tick-free, mosquito-free environment in her environment, well-described in other posts. All her poodles need to be rescued from her. It's tragic.









Co-occurrence of anaerobic bacteria in colorectal carcinomas


Numerous cancers have been linked to microorganisms. Given that colorectal cancer is a leading cause of cancer deaths and the colon is continuously exposed to a high diversity of microbes, the relationship between gut mucosal microbiome and colorectal ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## AvianAddict (Mar 20, 2021)

LLC said:


> Bought our standard poodle from Crabapple 10 years ago and he has been the delight of our lives. This forum verifies our concerns about going back for a second poodle. We are looking for moyen poodle from a good breeder in New England. Any suggestions.


Hopefully you have now read that "moyen" is a made-up marketing term used to describe a small standard, under 40 pounds.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

AvianAddict said:


> Hopefully you have now read that "moyen" is a made-up marketing term used to describe a small standard, under 40 pounds.


"Moyen" = "Medium". This is from the English version of the FCI standard:

SIZE AND WEIGHT: The sexual dimorphism must be clearly visible in all varieties.

Standard Poodles: Over 45 cm up to 60 cm with a tolerance of +2 cm. The Standard Poodle must be the enlarged and developed replica of the Medium Poodle of which it retains the same characteristics. 

Medium Poodles: Over 35 cm up to 45 cm. 

Miniature Poodles: Over 28 cm up to 35 cm. The Miniature Poodle must display the appearance of a reduced Medium Poodle, retaining as much as possible the same proportions and without presenting any sign of dwarfism. FCI-St. N° 172 / 23.01.2015 7 

Toy Poodles: Over 24 cm (with a tolerance of -1cm) up to 28 cm (sought after ideal: 25 cm). The Toy Poodle maintains, in its ensemble, the aspect of a Miniature Poodle and the same general proportions complying with all the points of the standard. Any sign of dwarfism is excluded; only the external occipital protuberance may be less pronounced.


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## AvianAddict (Mar 20, 2021)

TeamHellhound said:


> "Moyen" = "Medium". This is from the English version of the FCI standard:
> 
> SIZE AND WEIGHT: The sexual dimorphism must be clearly visible in all varieties.
> 
> ...


Moyen is not a recognized standard in AKC. It's a non AKC marketing term. Puppy mill designer term.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

AvianAddict said:


> Moyen is not a recognized standard in AKC. It's a non AKC marketing term. Puppy mill designer term.


No, its not.

I know two reputable breeder of moyen sized poodles.


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## AvianAddict (Mar 20, 2021)

Ava. said:


> No, its not.
> 
> I know two reputable breeder of moyen sized poodles.





Ava. said:


> No, its not.
> 
> I know two reputable breeder of moyen sized poodles.


If they breed poodles, and refer to them as "moyen", they are only going along with the marketing games. If you need to call them Moyen, to impress others, that's your choice. You could also call them "klein" which is a European term. It's German. Poodles are German, bred for duck hunting. Klein means "small". Instead of calling them "small", AKC calls a smaller standard poodle, a "miniature". 



https://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/Poodle.pdf


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

AvianAddict said:


> If they breed poodles, and refer to them as "moyen", they are only going along with the marketing games. If you need to call them Moyen, to impress others, that's your choice. You could also call them "klein" which is a European term. It's German. Poodles are German, bred for duck hunting. Klein means "small". Instead of calling them "small", AKC calls a smaller standard poodle, a "miniature".
> 
> 
> 
> https://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/Poodle.pdf


This forum has subscribers from around the world, so please be careful with blanket statements. I think I know one of the breeders Ava refers to. She imports FCI registered dogs and is generally well regarded.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

AvianAddict said:


> If they breed poodles, and refer to them as "moyen", they are only going along with the marketing games. If you need to call them Moyen, to impress others, that's your choice. You could also call them "klein" which is a European term. It's German. Poodles are German, bred for duck hunting. Klein means "small". Instead of calling them "small", AKC calls a smaller standard poodle, a "miniature".
> 
> 
> 
> https://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/Poodle.pdf


You are simply wrong. You can not blanket every moyen or klein poodle a product of marketing games. There are virtually no standard poodles klein or moyen sized being produced, so moyen and klein reputable breeders are needed to preserve the smaller sized standards. 

If you told me this breeder wasn't reputable, I'd laugh at you. Home


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

This is a 2019 thread about a specific breeder. If you wish, go ahead and start a new thread for a general discussion of medium-sized poodles in the United States and beyond. But please keep it kind.


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## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

I'm at the point with Breeder bashing that I don't believe anything I hear or read and half of what I see online. Fact is raising litters is not about webpages. Phone ringing off the wall for availability and answering emails, can overwhelm some really good breeders. The facts that come to light during a personal visit when shopping for a pup is priceless. Do your own legwork. Build a rapport. If you don't trust your gut, when you get there to check them out. Its your doing, not the breeders. It's always easier to blame someone else rather than look into a mirror. Respectfully stated, I hope. I'm a repeat buyer from my breeder. That is not a mistake.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Jilly SummerSunset said:


> I'm at the point with Breeder bashing that I don't believe anything I hear or read and half of what I see online. Fact is raising litters is not about webpages. Phone ringing off the wall for availability and answering emails, can overwhelm some really good breeders. The facts that come to light during a personal visit when shopping for a pup is priceless. Do your own legwork. Build a rapport. If you don't trust your gut, when you get there to check them out. Its your doing, not the breeders. It's always easier to blame someone else rather than look into a mirror. Respectfully stated, I hope. I'm a repeat buyer from my breeder. That is not a mistake.


 So are your dogs from crabapple?


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## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

Ava. said:


> So are your dogs from crabapple?


No.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

A member just asked that I take a peek at this thread. Anyone interested in the original topic is going to have to dig through a whole lot of tangential commentary to get to it, so for that reason I’m closing it to further replies.

If you wish to explore any of these topics more in-depth or from a fresh perspective, new threads are always welcome.


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