# Untrained Dog?



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Possibly. I would just keep an eye on that when they come in. 

He is jumping up either way so that needs training. We are in the same boat as you accept no nipping. We are awaiting our classes with Olie as well. My BF has purchased a book in the mean time Positive Dog Training by Pamela Dennison (it says The complete Idiots Guide to Dog Training on the cover HA!)


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Elphaba is being a bully. She picks on the kid because she wants to assert dominance or status over said kid. It is probably made worse because the kid is afraid of Elphaba and Elphaba is working this perceived weakness. 

It is especially not ok that Elphaba is putting her mouth on people in any way. When the kid comes over, Elphaba should always be on a leash. Don't just put her away because this avoids fixing the issue. If Elphaba attempts to jump or nip, give her a VERY FIRM COLLAR POP and a stern verbal correction. If this were my dog, I would grab her muzzle, look her in the eye and make it clear that the Righteous Retribution of the heavens would rain down on her if this behavior was seen again. It is not her job to bully guest in your home even if you hate your crumby little cousin.

That, however, is just the consequence for bad behavior. You need to start working on some foundation obedience NOW so that Elphaba can have a GOOD job to do when guests come over. Teach a sit. Then teach a sit/stay. Then a sit/stay/exam. 

A good sit stay is accomplish on leash. Never off leash!!!!!! Sit the dog. Put your hand in front of the dog's face and moving your hand towards the dog's face say in a clear voice "STAY". Step away from the dog 2 steps only (going too far too soon is too much for a young dog). If she tries to follow you or she breaks, don't say anything. Just take her by the collar and push her back into place. YOU DON'T EVER WANT TO REPEAT A COMMAND OR A DOG WILL EXPECT TO BE TOLD 5 TIMES TO DO SOMETHING BEFORE IT EVER COMPLIES. If Elphaba is holding her sit, count to 10 and then say OK! Break her off. Party Party Party. Treat. Let her know she has done a great job!!!!!

Then repeat the exercise. Do it no more than 3 times and then be done. Do this exercise 3X a day. Work up to being able to stand at the end of a 6-8 foot leash for a full 3 minutes without Elphaba moving or lying down. If you have been working the exercise and she continually breaks, you might go to giving her a firm collar pop under the chin so that she knows that STAY is something she has to do. This exercises should also be worked with the DOWN command.

Next. You know sit/stay. Now progress to SIT FOR EXAM. With this, the dog is told to SIT/STAY but then a person comes over and pets the dog on the head and back. Start easy. Have someone come and touch Elphaba's head and then walk away. Ok! Break her off Party!!!! If Elphaba breaks or gets up. Put her back into her sit. DON'T SAY ANYTHING!!! Work up to being able to have someone touch Elphaba all over without her moving.

So then when the evil cousin comes over. Put Elphaba in a sit/stay. Encourage cousin to pet Elphaba's head. Everyone is happy. (Still keep her on a leash to manage behaviors!)


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

thats what I was afraid of that she was trying to dominate said child

thank you so much for the advice Cbrand I'm going to start the sit/stay thing immediately

Oh and I wanted to add
that we caught her shaking her head in Elphies face ((The girl)) today like trying to get Elphie to pull her hair... o.o

so if this is a regular thing she does to Elphaba could elphie think this is what she wants her to do all the time?
((I hadn't seen this happen before the actual tormenting))

oh and I ALSO wanted to add another thing xDD
I'm not one of those people who blames someone else for their dogs behavior 
so I know its probably more elphie than this kid
and I intend to correct her every step of the way

just to clarify I shouldn't crate her when they come over?
I heard somewhere that if I crate her everytime someone comes in the house she'll get aggressive...is that an urban legend?


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

cbrand said:


> YOU DON'T EVER WANT TO REPEAT A COMMAND OR A DOG WILL EXPECT TO BE TOLD 5 TIMES TO DO SOMETHING BEFORE IT EVER COMPLIES. If Elphaba is holding her sit, count to 10 and then say OK! Break her off. Party Party Party. Treat. Let her know she has done a great job!!!!!


WOW - this makes complete sense!!!!!:doh: How often do we sometimes repeat the command? For me too often.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> Oh and I wanted to add
> that we caught her shaking her head in Elphies face ((The girl)) today like trying to get Elphie to pull her hair... o.o
> 
> so if this is a regular thing she does to Elphaba could elphie think this is what she wants her to do all the time?
> ((I hadn't seen this happen before the actual tormenting))


Right, the behavior thing has to go both ways. Crumby cousin has to be taught the correct way to interact with Elphie. In my house this would include quiet petting or play with ball/toy. I would not allow any sort of wresting or rough housing because it sends the wrong message to dog.

BTW... my expectation for my dogs is that they ultimately have to take whatever it is that people dish out to them. Accidents happen and kids and adults step on, knock into, pull on dogs all the time. It is a fact of life. I don't want a bunch of nervous-nelly wuss dogs in my house. The kid pulls your hair.... Live with it! I know how hard my girls play when they are with other dogs and they can take a little rough accidental treatment from humans now and again.

For my part, I will do my best to manage guests and family members in my home to make sure that my dogs are safe and comfortable. I also train and proof for this from the beginning. I bump into my dogs when they are eating and put my hands in their food. I randomly take away toys they are playing with. I get kids to wave toys around in the air in front of the dogs (no jumping... no grabbing toys out of hands is allowed). Poor behavior is corrected, good behavior.... PARTY!!!!



> just to clarify I shouldn't crate her when they come over?
> I heard somewhere that if I crate her everytime someone comes in the house she'll get aggressive...is that an urban legend?


You can crate her, but you are just avoiding correcting the problem. I say train when Crumby Cousin first comes over. Then, if you can not directly manage/supervise Elphie (it's dinner time or you have to play a board game with Aunt or????) put her away until you have time to directly deal with her.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Yeah Mia tries this crap with my kids and I just don't go for it. I'm alpha and she won't nip at my kids because all humans are above her in this pack. You just have to be on her the second she does something you don't want her to which means you might have to keep her tethered to you when she's around the child. I won't even let Mia around the kids right now because she wants to jump on them and nip them. So she gets either tethered or distracted so that she doesn't do bad things to the kids.

Oh and I completely agree with cbrand, the dogs that are the best dogs are the ones that are agreeable around kids. I have a 2 year old that will walk up to Harry and just wrap her arms around his neck and technically he's taller than her so she will sometimes hang on and he just stands there. She also likes to lay on him and take his toys away. If he doesn't let her he gets a command from me and I make him let her. He doesn't have a say so in this house. He's a dog, like I said all humans here are above him. Does that mean that I let my kids abuse my dogs? No way, they deserve respect too and that is very clear and my kids are corrected if they do something I don't approve of as well. It's just best all the way around for the dog and for you that the dog gets used to dealing with every situation and that includes dealing with toddlers.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

thank you so much for your advice Cbrand 
they won't be back for a while ((my aunt hates the snow)) so I'll have some time to try and correct Elphies behaviour 

its just so weird because neighbor girls come and go in our house ((my sisters friends)) and Elphaba doesn't jump or nip them, and I can reach into her bowl and take food I can take toys from her all of those things with no problem ((The shih tzu would take your finger hes food aggressive v.v; )) 

I'm just curious how long shes been tormenting my dog =\
because its kind of that backhanded thing to me...where I'm punishing elphie almost for this kids crappy demeanor 
((even though thats not what I'm doing at all xD ))


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## highhorse (Sep 17, 2008)

Inca is a toy poodle, so it may not work with the bigger poodles, but when my grandchildren came to holiday with us, I kept Inca on a long leash (round my waist and always with me). I kept this up until both the dog and the children were settled. I then told the children not to tease the dog and especially not to play "exciting". It took a couple of hours but we all settled down to having a really nice holiday.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

they came back today...for something they forgot I think and I tried the leash thing pop her collar gently anytime she'd jump up on the kid...

I actually got in trouble because we aren't allowed to shout...or be "barbarians" in our house ((my mom is a freak about manners when people are around v.v; )) and I FLIPPED on the little girl I explained to her 5x's please stop patting your chest to have her jump up she isn't allowed on you
well after the 5th time I told her to get out of the room ((The family room)) that I was sick of her not listening she could go and sit outside or in the kitchen with her mom and mine
my mom came and told me that it wasn't "polite" to shout at her and that we'll just have to keep Elphie away from her when shes here...
O.O

now...I dunno if you guys can pick this up from my forum posts but I respect my mother with every ounce of my body but come on...that little brat needs put on a leash not my dog... and I may have said that to her ((my mom)) which is what got me in trouble

needless to say...I won't be having children ever ^_^


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Keith your so sweet. Just keep them at a distance, maybe put Elphie in your room to keep the piece. Kids are like dogs they go through stages. Also I wonder if the girl is trying to get a rise out of you more then Elphie....just a thought.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I thought about this a bit and think as with anything some people bring out certain emotions from dogs. One person might bring out the desire to play one might bring out the desire to dominate and one might bring out the desire to show submission. I also think puppies like to nip other puppies, it's part of their behaviors and they view young children as puppies. Mia does not nip me or my husband but as soon as she gets around one of the kids the nipping the hands starts and I see it and she's reprimanded immediately. She what I mean by bringing out different emotions?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

that does make sense kpoos =]

I'm going to try my hardest to make elphie not do what she does
but it seems a little counterproductive seeing that as soon as I train her this girl will keep doing her own thing ((because she does not listen to me)) which will make elphie think she can do it since this girl is asking her too...
v.v;


I'm going to try and keep the kid away form elphie, while we do the sit and stay and exam 
until thats down pat I'm not going to let Elphie around her
thats what my mom proposed we do


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Young children lack impulse control and they often don't realize that they are doing something wrong even if they have been told over and over. Have some patience with your cousin. You may be frustrated with her, but she is not tormenting Elphie. She is just playing in a way that gets Elphie worked up. 

Next time they come over, enlist your Aunt's help. Tell her in a clear, non-judgmental way that you are working on training Elphaba and that you need everyone to be consistent. This means that Cousin needs to follow the training program too. Ask Aunt and Cousin what the consequence should be next time if Cousin does not follow directions. (Time out in kitchen? Sit with adults?) Get their buy-in. Then, when Cousin does not follow directions THE 1ST TIME, she has a logical consequence. This will help her to recognize her behaviors and hopefully learn to control them.

In regards to Elphie, perhaps you should think about moving to a prong collar. You can give a slight correction (your mother will be happy) but it will be an effective one.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

yeah I've taken a few minutes to mellow out about the situation a little xD
and I don't think the girl is intentionally going out of her way to torment elphaba 

I have no problem using a prong, I've just read horror stories about mis sizing the prong collar so I'm a little hesitant about using it without the proper teaching 
the trainer we're going to use uses them and swears by them so maybe I can call him and go buy one from him or get his opinion on the size for elphie

oh another thing xD
if the girl is exuding this presence that makes elphie want to play or dominate her would scooter and neko ((our shih-tzu, and lab/poodle mix)) feel the same presence because they don't jump on her


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Not necessarily. They are different dogs and they are older than Elphie. She's getting different vibes from your cousin and they probably have already summed up the situation and therefore do not care so don't even bother with her. If you have a dog that's "food aggressive" he's dominate no doubts about it. He doesn't want people messing with his food, he thinks he's in charge. If he thinks he's in charge the child matters not to him therefore he ignores what doesn't pose a direct challenge.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Children are also very attentive to the moods of adults, kind of like dogs......


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Oh yeah !!!! LOL But there are allll sorts of kids also - some are really obnoxious and manipulative and just LIKE to push buttons and bug everybody they can LMAO !!!! Some just like to get attention - even negative one is better than none to them !

In any case, not an easy position to be in Keith *sigh... But, the bottom line is that you just have to train your Elpheba to tolerate that silliness - she will be better off learning that and be a "good citizen" anywhere you take her : )))!!!

It is the biggest pleasure to be around a well trained dog : ))) and I am sure you will reach that goal - I have no doubts !!!


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

Well Bella really either tries to dominate my 4 yo or thinks she's another puppy. She doesn't do this with my older child who's clearly "bigger" than her. So it could be a training issue (it is for us, both Bella and my daughter!). LOL. So I guess my answer should be a little of both. 

For this reason I don't allow her out to play with Dd's friends who are her size. Dd loves her, despite being knocked down, despite NOT listening to me about our rules (i.e. don't get down on your needs/ground, stand tall); but I wouldn't want a friend to get hurt. 

One thing I've tried to do, but has fallen to the wayside due to Bella's tummy troubles, is have my daughter 'treat train' her with very simple commands to show Bella that Dd is also "in charge" of her and to be respected. It was working rather well this summer. I've also heard suggestions to have her feed Bella but honestly, I don't want to risk Dd dropping it and making a huge mess, so we opted for the treats.


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