# Crabapple Dowus is still alive and well I guess



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

As long as there are uninformed buyers and an unregulated market, Arlene and people like her will stay in business.


----------



## JenniferS (11 mo ago)

Liz said:


> As long as there are uninformed buyers and an unregulated market, Arlene and people like her will stay in business.


Is Crabbleapple a reputable breeder? I am just beginning my search for a standard poodle in New England.


----------



## Audi (Aug 3, 2021)

I never heard of Moyen poodles. Gonna have to Google ,lol.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Audi said:


> I never heard of Moyen poodles. Gonna have to Google ,lol.


Not to spoil your fun but here's a quick down and dirty, and search PF for (usually now) Moyen, and also Medium and Klein. 


*The Poodle Size Separation Saga
Poodles » JaneDogs *

In the USA, Prior to 1940 Toy Poodles were mostly white and exhibited as a separate breed with the same Breed Standard as other Poodles. In 1944 they were given the height of 10 ins and exhibited in the Toy Group. In Britain and Australia there was Miniature and Standard Poodles until 1957 when Toys under 11 inches were named as a third variety, again with all three given the same Breed Standard.

Under the basically European system the FCI, the Toy was also the third variety to create a separate size. But in 1989, a fourth size in Poodles, the Dwarf was introduced because it was common to have rather large Toy Poodles more resembling Miniatures. The fourth size was basically added to help stabilise the height variations so often seen throughout FCI countries. This change was introduced first by the French Poodle Club, then the French Kennel Club very quickly followed by all other FCI countries. So that gave the four sizes which were called Toy, Dwarf, Miniature and Standard which existed until the mid-1990's. Then the French Poodle Club again changed the size names to Toy, Miniature, Medium and Standard to allow even greater height restrictions in FCI countries[9].

*The Various Sizes of Poodles Today*
Please note that in all respects (except size) the various Poodles defined under each system should be exact replicas of the Standard (or FCI the Medium) Poodle. The 4 sizes recognised by the FCI and the 3 sizes recognised by countries other than the FCI are as follows:


ANKC, NZKC and Kennel Club (UK)American and Canadian KCFédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI)StandardOver 38 cms (15 ins)Over 15 inches (38 cms)Over 45 cm (17.7 ins) up to 60 cm (23.6 ins) with a tolerance of +2 cm (0.79 ins)Medium - over 35 cm (13.78 ins) up to 45 cm (17.7 ins)MiniatureUnder 38 cm (15 ins) but not under 28 cm (11 ins)Under 15 inches (38 cms) with a minimum height in excess of 10 inches (25.4 cms)Over 28 cm (11 ins) up to 35 cm (13.78 ins)ToyUnder 28 cm (11 ins)10 inches (25.4 cms) or underOver 24 cm (9.45 ins) (with a tolerance of -1 cm or 0.4 ins) up to 28 cm (11 ins) [sought after ideal: 25 cm (9.8 ins)]


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

JenniferS said:


> Is Crabbleapple a reputable breeder? I am just beginning my search for a standard poodle in New England.


Welcome! Type “crabapple” into the “Search Community” field at the top of this page. That will take you to past discussions of this topic.

Since you are just beginning your search for a standard poodle puppy, I would recommend reading through this thread:









🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com





Lots of good info there to get you started!


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

JenniferS said:


> Is Crabbleapple a reputable breeder? I am just beginning my search for a standard poodle in New England.


Since you're just beginning your research on breeders and how to select them, I'll add some tips and suggestions in addition to the good info and suggestions above.

*We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.*
What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the quality, conscientious breeders are _always _breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions but are flawless to us .

*It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from.*
For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US and Canada. A bottom-line difference is between those who are breeding primarily for profit and those who are breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breeding's are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

*About reviews*,
a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

*Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance.*
Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

*The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet".*
Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

_I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks._


*Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. *The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams.*

The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.

There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Standard Poodles

*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Health Elective* (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚


The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.

*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy*
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety recommended by the Poodle Club of America. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed*.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

*Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times*
and that wait is stretched well into 2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

*When you start making contacts*, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

*Color preferences* are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. Most poodle colors fade.

*Gender preferences* will also limit your options.

*Temperament and personality* are lifelong traits.

*Be prepared to spend* in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

*Be prepared to travel* outside your preferred area.

*As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are*
those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience". A breeder using marketing terms like teacup, royal, giant don't really know poodles in relation to the breed standard. Pricing differently for size or color is also marketing.

*Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights
(*breeding rights which allow the next generation of pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission. A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

*One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.*
That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.

USA
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America

Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America

As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.

_Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred._


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


To start a search for a breeder, use the official Poodle Clubs first. PF has a lot of resources to view also, and individual recommendations will be made too. Compare those to the information above for a good shot at a quality, conscientious breeder and a happy, healthy poodle.

-----

A note on "Champion bloodlines" or variations of...

The phrase "Championship _lines_" is nearly meaningless unless, as Phaz23 points out, the dam and sire are the champions, and their dams and sires...

"Championship" counts in the conformation ring, to prove that each generation is meeting the breed standard. It's not a given, an inherent trait that gets passed down.


----------



## Mochi’s Mom (10 mo ago)

JenniferS said:


> Is Crabbleapple a reputable breeder? I am just beginning my search for a standard poodle in New England.


----------



## Mochi’s Mom (10 mo ago)

No! Stay away from Crabapple Downs! I hope I’m not too late. I got my sweet girl from Vermont Poodle Rescue after they got her from Crabapple. It took over a year for her to get over the horrible start in life she had gotten at that awful place. She was 14 months old and had spent her entire life in a 4x4 ft crate. She’d had no socialization at all. Had never even walked on grass although she’d been raised in the beautiful NH countryside. It took months for her to get over multiple gastrointestinal problems. She’s now 10 yo and is a sweet loving incredibly well behaved dog but there are residual issues such as unexplained fears and anxiety.


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

My advice is to look for an oversized mini or a small standard. Mini’s are the hardest of the three recognized breed standards to source, so a smaller standard will be easier to find. You can use the search function to find the few Moyen breeders in the US that members approve.


----------



## PoodlesinMass (10 mo ago)

Stay away from Crabapple downs. Also reach out to PCA breeder referral: PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America or Poodle Club of Massachusetts: Standard breeders: Poodle Club of Massachusetts or mini breeders: Poodle Club of Massachusetts


----------

