# Jasper's High BUN & Creatinine Levels



## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

It has been frustrating and agonizing trying to get Jasper diagnosed. We are still uncertain. I had a meeting Friday with our local vet and a phone consult this morning. We have to continiue to monitor his blood levels and the two that keep creeping up are the BUN (now 27) and Creatinine (2.8). Last April, we did see an ultrasound specialist (Dr Fulton) in Ann Arbor to check out Jazz's kidneys. The Dr said they are an "odd" shape but not in a way that makes him overly concerned. The specialist still wants to pursue kidney/renal failure as a diagnosis though. Not much more has been said about Addison's which was suspected just this past Jan after a midnight trip to the emergency vet. They did mention thyroid issues but his young age makes that unlikely. All of his other organs looked good.

My vet said to just wait it out but it feels like waiting for the hammer to drop. My black Standard Sasha past in 2009 of kidney failure so I am overly sensitive to this.

Blood panels are done every 6 months and with each test these levels creep higher and higher. Urinalysis is done monthly. We discussed feeding a lower protein food. Jasper drinks copious amounts of water (Sasha did this too). The waiting is starting to drive me a little bit crazy.

Should I see a holistic vet? Has anyone had any experience with this product? 
Kidney Support Natural Kidney & Urinary Tract Health Remedy for Pets


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## Jessie's Mom (Mar 23, 2010)

i don't anything about kidney conditions, so i did some research for you (i'm sure you've done plenty of you own, but sometimes one person could find something another can't). anyway, below is a quote i copied from a german shepherd forum. they recommend a raw diet. i also found that recommendation on another site. i have a book home that chocolate millie recommended to me when i was going changing jessie's diet. the book is all about feeding raw and home cooked meals. this dr addresses all ailments and recommends diets for each one. if you are interested, i will look it up when i get home. just let me know. 

I lost my pup Rio at 16 months to this same thing. So here is my advice and lessons I learned. First get the ultasound, it will show you what is going on. Maybe his kidneys never developed correctly or he may have 1 good one which is what we hope for. The raw diet is excellent, my dog did a turn around (he was never really sick either) once on the raw. DO NOT get him vaccinated!!!!! DO NOT give him heartworm meds without doing some research. Remember everything that goes into your dog the kidneys must process. Vaccines and heartworm meds are what ended up killing my pup prematurely.

DO NOT let the vet talk you into a Rx diet, contrary to what most vets say renal failure dogs need high quality protein. Watch what you feed, phosphorus is bad so stay clear of to much peanut butter and check your ingredients. Organic is best when you can, add organic apple juice to your dogs food or offer it as a drink several times a week. It is good for him.

I also recommend testing the blood again in a few months since you have moved to raw and compare your levels.


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

Thanks a million - I'd love to know the title of the book too.

I really have toyed with feeding raw and this makes it more of a requirement vs option. I have access to a couple of local butchers - I will stop by today and discuss what they have available.

Jasper has allergies to chicken, in kibble, so I may not try poultry right away.


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## Jessie's Mom (Mar 23, 2010)

i didn't include the book's name or author in the last post cause i couldn't remember it. then i remembered that i just recommended it to someone else in another post and looked it up. the book is called Raw & Natural Nutrition for Dogs - The Definitive Guide to Homemade Meals by Lew Olson, PhD. excellent book - full of info, not judgemental (you have to do it this way or no way) - just very good info to help you feed your dog the healthiest way possible (raw or cooked) whether they have a problem or not. 

& please take note on the recommendation about vaccines and heart worm meds. the more i hear about these two, the more frightened i am of them even for healthy dogs.


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

Jessie's Mom said:


> please take note on the recommendation about vaccines and heart worm meds. the more i hear about these two, the more frightened i am of them even for healthy dogs.


I certainly will  Thanks again!


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

*Kidney Yahoo Lists*

K9KIDNEYS : for owners of dogs with Kidney Disease

K9Kitchen : dog diets raw cooked allergies disease

Joining these groups may be a good idea. Tons of information in the archives and also many very knowledgeable people.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

I hope Jasper is okay! Not having a diagnosis is always scary as your imagination goes wild and you can't help but expect the worst. 

This is a different scenario, but my parent's poodle had gall bladder issues when he was young and was sent to a specialist. He ended up having the GB removed but his liver was also damaged. He was fine up until one blood test where the liver enzymes were elevated. He pulled through and is on 3-4 daily meds. 

But they took him to see a holistic vet and it really helped. The holistic vet's approach complemented the traditional vet, as he recommended alternative treatments. He focused on traditional chinese medicine / herbal remedies along with acupuncture and related therapies. (They discussed all of his suggestions with his specialist to ensure there were no problems with certain herbs and his bounty of meds.) What made the difference though is he was very open to home-cooked and raw diets. I was the only one "home cooking" at the time!

Keep us posted and I'll keep Jasper in my thoughts!


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

@ AA: I joined the yahoo groups - thanks for the helpful links. I have a lot of reading to do 

@ Rowan: the thing is that Jazz "acts" ok. He is at doggie daycare right now running and playing like all of the other healthy dogs  I have thought about a holistic vet for some time now and also feeding raw. It just seems like a waste of time to wait. Wait for what? Time to run out or to be told it is too late like Sasha? Not sure I want to take that route again. Thank you for telling about your parents poodle - it gives me hope!

I decided a while ago that I will do my very best for him, pursue every option within my means and enjoy the time that we have together.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I am so very sorry to hear you have this worry! I'm glad others are able to offer you some guidance, all I can do is share your concern and wish Jasper well, which I do with all my might. It's so good to hear he acts normally, I hope this means he has no discomfort or pain. But the anxiety you bear, that is a tough thing! I can't see the harm in visiting a good holistic vet. I'll be keeping a good thought for you and Jasper, with high hopes that things go along well for a_ long, long, long_ time.:hug:


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Lilah+Jasper said:


> @ AA: I joined the yahoo groups - thanks for the helpful links. I have a lot of reading to do
> 
> @ Rowan: the thing is that Jazz "acts" ok. He is at doggie daycare right now running and playing like all of the other healthy dogs  I have thought about a holistic vet for some time now and also feeding raw. It just seems like a waste of time to wait. Wait for what? Time to run out or to be told it is too late like Sasha? Not sure I want to take that route again. Thank you for telling about your parents poodle - it gives me hope!
> 
> I decided a while ago that I will do my very best for him, pursue every option within my means and enjoy the time that we have together.


The raw diet seems to work wonders for so many medical conditions--I agree with Jessie's Mom that it's worth a try. And I know you would low crawl over broken glass for Jazz (as in you would do anything for your boy).  

The fact he acts fine is a good thing! Rejoice in that and keep up the positive energy for him. I think that works as well with dogs as it does with humans. Keep us posted on the Holistic vet as I'm always keen to hear what they suggest and what remedies they employ. I'd love to find a good 'integrated medicine' vet (one who practices both holistic and traditional medicine). Now that would be a dream find! 

I dug out Lord Byron's journal as I researched renal disease back when I had him. I can't say for sure if this is accurate but it's what I jotted down (more research is necessary): hydration important. Low protein can lead to nutritional deficiencies. Studies show that maintaining the protein level while increasing fiber (to lessen the stress on the kidneys) is more beneficial. Also, diets lower in phosphorous seem to help. I'll see if I can figure out where I read this (it's probably in one of my books as I have a ton of holistic dog books). 

I did find this which is interesting: Waglife For Dogs: Creating a Diet For Dogs in Kidney Failure - Dog Accessories & Products Shop


> Low Phosphorus:
> 
> Feeding a low phosphorus diet has definitely been shown to be beneficial for dogs with kidney disease. ... In general, foods highest in phosphorus include bones, dairy products, fish (with bones), organ meats, and egg yolks. That does not mean not to feed these foods at all, as they are an important component of a healthy diet, but they should be fed in moderation. Be wary also of the amount of phosphorus in grains and vegetables that you feed...


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I am so sorry he has kidney problems.  In humans, he would be near dialysis with those levels. Maybe a change in diet will lower his levels. That would be awesome. In people, some are able to avoid full kidney failure by being good with their diet to put the least stress on the kidneys. He is drinking a lot of water because he is trying to flush out the creatinine. Bloodwork often isn't all that accurate when a dog is lowering levels himself by drinking and peeing a lot. 

I would research very well before you put him on a higher protein diet. It is counter intuitive to do that. Usually, low protein is what you want with kidney failure. A dog is not a human, of course. Putting him on a raw diet could eliminate all the additives found in processed foods and thus help his kidneys. Ask your vet, but a homemade diet, although more work for you, that is lower in protein, but high in nutrition may help him.


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## stealthq (Aug 4, 2011)

Thought this might help. 

I've done quite a bit of research into kidney disease and diet. I've had a couple of cats with chronic renal failure and have come across canine studies while looking for feline studies. What's clear is that human, feline, and canine renal function is different. With cats you want to shift to very high quality (low ash) high protein food. With dogs the level of protein in the diet doesn't seem to make any significant difference as shown in the following study - I copied and pasted the abstract. There are others with similar conclusions. You can search on http://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ to find more.

Kidney Int. 1986 Feb;29(2):511-9.
*Long-term renal responses to high dietary protein in dogs with 75% nephrectomy.*

Robertson JL, Goldschmidt M, Kronfeld DS, Tomaszewski JE, Hill GS, Bovee KC.
*Abstract*

It has been proposed that ingestion of large amounts of dietary protein leads to sustained renal hyperperfusion and progressive glomerulosclerosis in rats. This hypothesis was tested in dogs, with 75% reduction in renal mass, maintained for 4 years on either 56, 27, or 19% dietary protein. Twelve of 21 dogs survived 4 years, and death due to renal failure was not correlated to diet. Dogs fed 56 and 27% protein had increased GFR and CPAH before and after reduction of renal mass compared to the 19% group. A pattern of deterioration of renal function, including proteinuria, was not found in any diet group. Nine of 11 dogs, fed 56, 27, or 19% protein had minimal glomerular lesions, including mesangial proliferation, GBM irregularities, adhesions, and sclerosis. Two other dogs, fed 56% protein, had more severe glomerular lesions. No significant ultrastructural differences were found in glomeruli among the three diet groups. These results do not support the hypothesis that high protein feeding had a significant adverse effect on either renal function of morphology in dogs with 75% nephrectomy.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

If high protein doesn't matter in dogs, switching to a raw, unprocessed diet may be the key for Jasper. I am interested in what you learn.


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

I can't convey how touched I am from all of your thoughtful, caring and informative replies. It has been such a busy day that I have had little time to read and research my options after speaking with the vet this morning. Thank you, thank you, thank you for this.

I just knew that continuing to take a wait and see approach wasn't the right thing to do. We have done it since Jan and It is time to be proactive. Thankfully, Lilah's behaviorist is planning an informative seminar about starting a raw diet. It couldn't be more timely. Bonus, I also board Lilah and Jasper with her when we travel and she is A-OK with feeding them raw 

And yes, I would crawl over glass to fix my dear sweet boy - if it were only that simple.

I just knew that my poodle friends would "get it" 

(((hugs)))


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I really admire the way you are taking charge and actively seeking a solution instead of waiting for the worst to happen. I am a big fan of raw and hope that this could help avoid kidney problems. I know that if there is a way to help him get better you will find it. I hope that soon you will look forward to the 6 month test because it will show that what you are doing is making a difference.


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

So... I have my Poodleit snoods and leg protectors ordered, found a local butcher and small organic farm for my raw meat. I am getting down to the last of my TOTW kibble so I need to plan my fast day for the dogs and then start with chicken backs and quarters. I have also contacted a local deer processor and he is willing to *GIVE* me unwanted venison :adore: 

I know that I have just skimmed the surface of feeding raw but it doesn't seem quite so intimidating now 

I think that I am going to invest in a couple of flannel backed table cloths on which to feed them - easy to store & easy to clean up.

Now I am being proactive!!! Wish us luck...:afraid:


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Lilah & Jasper*: You clearly have the sharp maternal instincts of a lioness, jumping right in to defend your fur kid and keep him safe. It's evident you now have a great action plan in place that's making you feel much better and empowered. It's sure to do wonders for Jasper! Good for you, and good for him for having such a dedicated, savvy mom. I know the raw feeders on the forum will be there for you as an ongoing resource, and I have a strong feeling you'll be an expert yourself in no time. All good wishes for a terrific outcome. I'll be looking to see his numbers improve!:clover:


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## Jessie's Mom (Mar 23, 2010)

i agree with chagall's mom - you are going full speed ahead. i believe with everything you are doing (raw feeding, not vaccinating, etc) you will do wonders for jaspar. don't be afraid to ask questions, ask for encouragement, or anything else that you may need. look at all the answers you got and the direction you learned you wanted to go in just from asking a couple of questions already.

please keep us posted. and as a side note, look how lilah is going to benefit!!


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

Much love and healing energy to Jasper. Much love and comfort to you. 

I'll agree with Chagall's Mom and Jessie's Mom - you're a great poodle mom doing whatever it takes for your Jasper. I'm sure he'll improve just from the love alone.


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

Jessie's Mom said:


> iand as a side note, look how lilah is going to benefit!!


I am giddy with anticipation about this too. I wonder if it will help Lilah with some of her behavioral issues...

Lilah is my problem child regarding behavior and Jazz is my problem child regarding health issues - but I just adore them!:amen:


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Lilah+Jasper said:


> I am giddy with anticipation about this too. I wonder if it will help Lilah with some of her behavioral issues...
> 
> Lilah is my problem child regarding behavior and Jazz is my problem child regarding health issues - but I just adore them!:amen:


Their "faults" just give them character.


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

Rowan said:


> Their "faults" just give them character.


So true!!!


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

Good for you!

I spent time with my sister and my nephews and niece yesterday and as we were cleaning up after lunch, the youngest, who is 3yrs old, licked the utensil we used to spread the Almond Butter which is something he is sensitive to.

Within 5 minutes I watched my very high energy, slightly wild-at-times nephew mutate into a spastic, CRAZY kid who you'd think had never seen a rule before in his life.

Just a sample of how foods can contribute to behavior.

OH, and I just remembered... Many years ago when I worked for a kindergarten age, after school daycare program the lead teacher and I decided to no longer give the kids anything with red dye in it because we observed the kids get wound up after eating anything with red dye in it.

Just another example.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

*Jasper*

I've had good results with my holistic vet giving Oreo Double Helix Water for overal health. Thanks also for recommending the hot spot remedy.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

How is Jasper doing? Is Lilah enjoying her raw meats?


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

*red dye*

SparkyJoe, I used to love the cherries in different drinks! Among other things...... 

AArrgghh! There is nothing yummy to eat anymore!


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

Rowan said:


> How is Jasper doing? Is Lilah enjoying her raw meats?


Since we are still on holiday, I thought it wise to wait for the big switch until our return. Jazz doesnt do well while I am away but I am so looking forward to seeing them on Sat morning!!! Their dog sitter said they are doing just great and making lots of new friends  i am thrilled - especially for Lilah. My trainer/boarding facility is the best! 

I promise to keep you updated... Our new adventure is about to begin.


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