# advice for the "hold" command



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I had a hard time with the dumbbell hold with Lily. She loved to retrieve it but had a 100% failure rate on bringing it to front even though I had tried to shape that behavior for many months to no avail. I won't bother telling you all the things I tried unless you want to hear them as alternatives to what worked (outlined below). I set myself up for it really, but I wasn't thinking ahead when she was a mouthy puppy and I taught her to put things down on the floor/ground when she brought them to me.

What finally worked (and very quickly) was a coerced retrieve using Dianne Bauman's ear pinch. I know positive only trainers will object, but it worked for me and I know have a 100% reliable CDX retrieve on flat and retrieve over jump that is beautiful to see. What you need is a chain slip collar. You put it on the dog and sit on a chair with the dog facing you. Take your left hand and make an "ear leather sandwich" of index finger, excess length of collar chain, ear leather, thumb." Apply slight pressure while you offer the dumbbell with your right hand and say "take it." Maddy should open her mouth and allow you to give her the dumbbell. Release the pressure on her ear and take the dumbbell from her while you tell her "give" or "out" and praise/treat. As she is more willing to accept it from you you will increase the amount of time she holds it and then start making her reach for it. Once she reaches for it you will start lowering it to the floor. always make sure you release the pressure off her ear before you take the dumbbell and that you praise/treat her holding it until you take it from her.

With Lily it took well under two weeks to get reliable retrieves with fronts this way, but I think she knew what she was supposed to be doing before I pinched her ear. I will add that before I did the ear pinch on her I did it to myself by using the collar and pinching some thin flappy areas of skin (like between my fingers, my earlobe) to know what it would be like for her and to know what the minimum pressure I could use just to make it a nuisance feel rather than an ouchy. I am attaching a picture that shows her doing retrieve on the flat at a trial to show that she is a joyful retriever. Actually many other obedience people with labs and goldens love her retrieve and wish they had such enthusiastic retrievers. I always remind them that my pretty smart spoo is as much a retriever as their dogs are! I hope this helps you.


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

I don't get it...... how does pinching her ear make her to hold the dumbbell ?


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

She's so cute! Maddys like that with obedience, she just loves it. 


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Food for thought, no? 




> Reliability and the Retrieve: Justifying the Ear Pinch? | Suzanne Clothier
> 
> A realistic look at the justifications used by proponents of the force retrieve.
> 
> ...


An alternative:

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/2_9/features/5267-1.html


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled, does it look like Lily has been scarred for life about retrieving? I didn't say mine was the only method I just offered it as the method I used with success and that I also maintain did not punish her at all. I have spent lots of time around tons of active obedience competitors. The ear pinch is not for everyone, but if you do it with careful consideration about how and why you are doing it you will get proof-able results. I tried shaping this retrieve for a year with nothing to show for it. I have a friend who is trying to shape this and has been working on it for over two years with virtually no results. My girl is too talented and driven to perform to waste half her life shaping something like this.

Wild Kitten when you pinch the ear you offer the dumbbell close in front of their mouth. When they take it from you you let go of the ear. It is coercive in the sense that the dog figures out to get you off their ear they have to take the offered object. I was able to drop the ear pinching in about ten days.

Indiana will now have a variety of options to choose to meet her needs and expectations for Maddy.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I know what you mean about spending months trying to shape a behaviour; just for fun I tried teaching the girls "who's got rabies?" And they never did get beyond a tiny Elvis lip curl. That doesn't matter, but I would like to progress in obedience because Maddy just thrives on it and I have a drivy poodle who needs, needs, needs the mental work. When she excels in class, believe me she knows it and its what makes her happiest


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Poodlebeguiled, does it look like Lily has been scarred for life about retrieving? I didn't say mine was the only method I just offered it as the method I used with success and that I also maintain did not punish her at all. I have spent lots of time around tons of active obedience competitors. The ear pinch is not for everyone, but if you do it with careful consideration about how and why you are doing it you will get proof-able results. I tried shaping this retrieve for a year with nothing to show for it. I have a friend who is trying to shape this and has been working on it for over two years with virtually no results. My girl is too talented and driven to perform to waste half her life shaping something like this.
> 
> Wild Kitten when you pinch the ear you offer the dumbbell close in front of their mouth. When they take it from you you let go of the ear. It is coercive in the sense that the dog figures out to get you off their ear they have to take the offered object. I was able to drop the ear pinching in about ten days.
> 
> *Indiana will now have a variety of options to choose to meet her needs and expectations for Maddy*.


Yes, exactly. 

I don't see in the picture that Lily has been scarred for life. It's just an alternative I offered if someone doesn't like using pain for training their dog. People do train these things with positive training methods. Coercive training is something I myself find morally repugnant. So I offered to Indiana, another option to try.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

A video you might enjoy Indiana. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDd3hRJCYwM


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Indiana said:


> I know what you mean about spending months trying to shape a behaviour; just for fun I tried teaching the girls "who's got rabies?" And they never did get beyond a tiny Elvis lip curl. That doesn't matter, but I would like to progress in obedience because Maddy just thrives on it and I have a drivy poodle who needs, needs, needs the mental work. When she excels in class, believe me she knows it and its what makes her happiest


I think Maddy and Lily are cut from the same mold. As my vet said when we were there for our annuals, she is unlike any poodle he's ever known (but he hasn't met your Maddy now, has he!). I wish you success whatever method you choose to use.

Poodlebeguiled I am so sad for you that you find me to be morally repugnant. I am quite flabbergasted that you chose those words when you have never met me and know very little about me. I have never said anything so personally critical about anyone here and fail to see how you can justify that position of universal condemnation of a group of people who you clearly just don't even want to listen to. I don't see why you think yours is the only way. BTW I did talk about shaping the behavior and noted that it had failed for me absolutely and totally before I considered the forced retrieve.


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> Wild Kitten when you pinch the ear you offer the dumbbell close in front of their mouth. When they take it from you you let go of the ear. It is coercive in the sense that the dog figures out to get you off their ear they have to take the offered object. I was able to drop the ear pinching in about ten days.


Oh ok....... because in your previous post you said that you let go of the ear once you take the dumbbell from the dog, so that what didn't make sense..... that sounded more like you are teaching the release command not the hold one.



lily cd re said:


> You put it on the dog and sit on a chair with the dog facing you. Take your left hand and make an "ear leather sandwich" of index finger, excess length of collar chain, ear leather, thumb." Apply slight pressure while you offer the dumbbell with your right hand and say "take it." Maddy should open her mouth and allow you to give her the dumbbell. Release the pressure on her ear and take the dumbbell from her while you tell her "give" or "out" and praise/treat. As she is more willing to accept it from you you will increase the amount of time she holds it and then start making her reach for it. Once she reaches for it you will start lowering it to the floor. always make sure you release the pressure off her ear before you take the dumbbell and that you praise/treat her holding it until you take it from her.


This is just a bit confusing how she suppose to actually want to hold it when you are pinching while she holds and release when she gives it up...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't find YOU morally repugnant. I said for ME, PERSONALLY...I find causing pain to my dogs morally repugnant. I don't like to see other dogs being hurt. I'll try to explain. It's something_ I_ can't do on purpose to my own dogs or dogs I train. I have a certain philosophy about domestic dogs...I've studied their evolution (different theories) fairly extensively, along with behavior, our roles in their world over time, the work they've done for us, what we've done for and to them. The whole picture to ME makes me feel a certain way toward dogs, a certain kind of obligation or responsibility. 

I find that if a certain kind of behavior can not be trained without using pain, then perhaps that behavior doesn't need to be taught at all. I've read so many books about dogs and had and worked with dogs for a long time....that it's brought me to this thing that I feel. It's not even just about training or teaching. It's the whole relationship that has evolved with humans and dogs and what our role should be. I find it unnecessary and wrong to cause pain to a dog so that we can get our kicks. And you know what? I am having a real moral dilemma myself with this showing of Matisse. I'm so close to getting (for me) his grand championship, (well...not that close) And while he loves trotting around the ring, the attention he gets, the fuss, the socializing with people and dogs, I am quite sure he doesn't love the long time spent on the grooming table, people making him hold quite still while his hair is done. This is bothering me a lot. And I go back and forth about whether to quit or not. Is this something I should impose on this creature? 

So, I don't find you morally repugnant as a human being. I find the use of pain, coercion, excessive force (ie: CM) etc repugnant, distasteful. I'm sure you are not causing a great deal of pain, obviously. You're in love with your dog and over all, I respect how you work with your dog, all the fun things she gets to do. I don't have too much difficulty with one thing like that but think there are other ways. It's not like when I watch certain trainers on TV who routinely and pretty much rely totally on those kinds of things that really turn me off. 

I feel if something can't be trained without pain or compulsion, I, myself have to decide what's more important. And I wanted to offer the OP another angle in case she'd like to try that method. After all, the very nature of a forum is to offer opinions and our take on things. And that's what I was doing. Yes, I find it morally repugnant to cause a dog pain in order to get my own way...the act, not one's whole character. It makes me cringe. It repels me. I can't help that I feel that way. I just do.


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## atlflier (Mar 31, 2014)

> I feel if something can't be trained without pain or compulsion, I, myself have to decide what's more important. And I wanted to offer the OP another angle in case she'd like to try that method. After all, the very nature of a forum is to offer opinions and our take on things. And that's what I was doing. Yes, I find it morally repugnant to cause a dog pain in order to get my own way...the act, not one's whole character. It makes me cringe. It repels me. I can't help that I feel that way. I just do.


My take on this? It's ironic that some may be adept at communicating things to their animal using positive techniques but they've clearly missed the mark when translating those to human interactions. It makes me cringe, repels me and I can't help that I feel that way. I just do.

Lily cd re: Watching your girl perform at PCA and seeing the titles you two achieved is the difference between arm-chair quarterbacking and actually being out on the field taking your team to the Superbowl.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Wild Kitten said:


> Oh ok....... because in your previous post you said that you let go of the ear once you take the dumbbell from the dog, so that what didn't make sense..... that sounded more like you are teaching the release command not the hold one.
> 
> 
> 
> This is just a bit confusing how she suppose to actually want to hold it when you are pinching while she holds and release when she gives it up...


Sorry for confusing you Wild Kitten. It is the end of the semester for me and I am tired from reading tons of student papers so i missed that I had the order of things wrong. You let go of the ear while the dog is holding and then ask the dog to release the dumbbell. You don't want the dog to decide when to let go of it. For Lily teaching her to come front with it in her mouth was the hard part. Once she was there her hold was solid and teaching her that give means let go was easy.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

atlflier said:


> My take on this? It's ironic that some may be adept at communicating things to their animal using positive techniques but they've clearly missed the mark when translating those to human interactions. It makes me cringe, repels me and I can't help that I feel that way. I just do.
> 
> Lily cd re: Watching your girl perform at PCA and seeing the titles you two achieved is the difference between arm-chair quarterbacking and actually being out on the field taking your team to the Superbowl.


You are very sweet to let me know that you enjoyed our PCA performances. I never got around to watching the video but I did find some nice pics at Steve Surfman.

Enough now of hijacking Indiana's thread. She's got her big girl panties on and I am sure she will do a great job teaching Maddy the dumbbell retrieve by whatever method she chooses.

Indiana, I wish you weren't so far away. I have a feeling that Lily and Maddy could be great friends. I bet we would have fun as training buddies too. We would have lots to help each other with since our girls do seem to be cut from the same cloth. The best part of being with them is the bright face that looks up at you when they know they've done something really special, isn't it?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

atlflier said:


> My take on this? It's ironic that some may be adept at communicating things to their animal using positive techniques but they've clearly missed the mark when translating those to human interactions. It makes me cringe, repels me and I can't help that I feel that way. I just do.
> 
> Lily cd re: Watching your girl perform at PCA and seeing the titles you two achieved is the difference between arm-chair quarterbacking and actually being out on the field taking your team to the Superbowl.




Oh so on a public forum there's something wrong with stating an opinion? Or is it only opinions that agree with certain posters that are acceptable? Sure, her dog achieves in the ring. I just hate the thought of causing pain to animals. Simple as that. Is that some awful thing? Apparently it is. Arm chair quarterback? Are you kidding? What do you know of my back ground?

Carry on everyone.


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## atlflier (Mar 31, 2014)

You have absolutely every right to voice your opinion Poodlebeguiled. And I apologize for openly razzing you with my arm-chair quarterbacking comment. What flabbergasts me is that I see merit in the alternatives you offer but I just can't get passed the way you drive it home.

Maybe I'm from a different generation than you are...perhaps serving 20-plus years in the military has dulled my senses a bit and I no longer recognize what constitutes your definition of common decency any more. 

Suffice it to say I don't particularly care for the way you repeatedly choose to deliver your message, especially when it's obvious the intended recipient was and has been hurt/offended by your comments in several threads. Nevertheless, it doesn't justify me giving you a taste of your own medicine to prove a point. 

In the future I'll just endeavor to ignore you and ask that you do the same with respect to me.

Carrying on....


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Yes I agree lily cd re! Lily and Maddy would have a fabulous time together. They're not only super bright, but they have a drive to figure things out and if we don't give them something challenging to do they'll find something to do on their own (like how Maddy ate a hole through my dining room wall). As another thread about border collies pointed out, they're not for just any home!


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

Just out of interest Indiana...... did you read the links/watched the video provided by Poodlebeguiled as an alternative? 

What did you think about them? 
Or did you just ignored her posts totally and decided to go with the ear pinching method?


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## Chells_Aura (Dec 7, 2012)

Wild Kitten said:


> Just out of interest Indiana...... did you read the links/watched the video provided by Poodlebeguiled as an alternative?
> 
> What did you think about them?
> Or did you just ignored her posts totally and decided to go with the ear pinching method?



(sorry if it feels I'm coming out of the wood-work....)

WK you stated in a previous thread that instead of attacking you people should help you understand what it is you've said "wrong". So instead of your quoted statement (which looks very offensive imho) You should maybe try something like this:

Indiana, if you are willing to share, I would love to hear more about your training sessions and which techniques ended up working for you!


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

Chells_Aura said:


> (sorry if it feels I'm coming out of the wood-work....)
> 
> WK you stated in a previous thread that instead of attacking you people should help you understand what it is you've said "wrong". So instead of your quoted statement (which looks very offensive imho) You should maybe try something like this:
> 
> Indiana, if you are willing to share, I would love to hear more about your training sessions and which techniques ended up working for you!


Thank you... that helps with my english  

As I said in the past, English is not my first language so sometimes what I intend to say might sound different to others than it was really meant. 

What I meant is - seeing as the posts posted by Poodlebeguiled were not even acknowledged by Indiana, I thought that she might have missed the ones that were intended for her in all this "argument" that evolved so I wanted to bring her attention to them and see what she actually think about the articles/video which were referred in them.


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## Chells_Aura (Dec 7, 2012)

Yeah that's fair. But making accusations of ignoring posts on purpose in favour of causing her dog pain is what your post actually looked like. So it comes across as trying to pick a fight.

If you want to know what techniques worked for her you ask her what techniques worked for her. If you want to know if she saw Poodlebeguiled's post you ask exactly that.

Trying to mish mash other things into your questions seems to just be getting you in trouble, so try working it down to the absolute basic form of the question.

Example:

Here's the link to Poodlebeguiled's suggestions in case you missed it. I'm really curious to know what technique worked for you, please keep us up to date Indiana!



There is no blame, no blind accusations just pure and simple giving her the info you think she missed and then asking her for the info you would like to know.

My husband's first language is not english and his family doesn't speak english very well at all... I find myself often having to figure out the meaning behind the words.
And I don't like fighting... so if I can help out I am going to try.... =/


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

You're right. 

Thanks


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Chells Aura,very helpful post. God bless the peacemakers.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

No I didn't watch the videos, but we've been having a great time in lessons. We have gone on to agility now so the "hold" command is just sort of a home project for me and i dont have any deadlines as i used a different "routine" for our grad night. (We each had to teach our dogs 5 new fun things for the grad ceremony) Maddy is every obedience instructors dream...she learns really quickly as long as you're not boring. Agility is maddys favorite thing; I think she's trying to figure out how to give ME treats to take her more often! Also my workload has gone mental lately, i have a huge wild garden, and I also have my horse things going on, so ya. No extra time!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh Indiana, I hear you on too little time, too many things. I gave three lab final exams this week and one lecture exam. I still have two lecture exams on Monday. I had to find time to spend with my mom on Sunday and had a bunch of things to do on behalf of BF's mom to get her set up for cataract surgery. Step daughter needed to get home from college. Pool needs to be set up. Garden needs to get cleaned from bad winter...then on top of all else, a funeral this week for a retired colleague.

Life needs to stop getting in the way of doggie time. I wish something like a Star Trek transporter was real so Maddy and Lily could have a play date!


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

Back to the OP....... Here's another way too teach HOLD from a hunting poodle person. The dog should be restrained by a short lead in the sitting position. The object placed in the dog mouth during training should not be the final retrieving object. For example I start with a paint roller or wooden dowel, not birds or training bumpers, in case the dog gets upset being restrained. Place the object in mouth behind the canine teeth and hold the dog's mouth shut repeating HOLD. Be careful not to catch the dogs lips in the teeth as we want no discomfort during this process. Lift the dog head look softly in their eyes while stroking the dog's head and repeat HOLD calmly. If the dog is resistant gentlely place 2 fingers in the groove under the dog's jaw and repeat HOLD. One hand should be should on top of her head soothing the dog while you repeat HOLD. Maintain eye contact. When the dog is relaxed give your release command and praise the dog calmly. Repeat 3-4 times during that session and ONLY ONCE per day.

I do not give treats as well timed calm praise is enough. I want to praise the HOLD not the release because the dog will start waiting and desiring the release for a bit of food. I want her to feel great about and want to hold something for me.

I always teach hold before any forced retrieve training and only do forced retrieve if the dog fails to retrieve. For example, my current dog retrieved great from puppy to 4 yrs of age. But when she had to retrieve running birds she wanted to groom them with her front teeth a play with them before she was ready to retrieve them. Not acceptable for me or the bird so force fetch was needed. Good Luck!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Desiree thanks for another interesting perspective on teaching this behavior. My recent Ian Dunbar workshop showed me that praise often really is a sufficient reward and it is often more likely to be the most effective since the word can be timed much better than the food.


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