# stomach stapling to prevent bloat?



## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

since little Jasper comes home in just five days (!!!!!) I've been maniacally researching essentially everything I can health wise. I just had a close friend almost lose her weimerimer to bloat a few weeks ago, and so when I came across stomach tacking/stapling as a method to prevent the torsion that is often the deadliest part of bloat I was fascinated. 

Does anyone have any experience with stomach tacking and would you recommend it? I know spoos aren't AS at risk as larger breeds, but I want to take precautions just in case, as long as the benefits outweigh the costs of an invasive surgery(that would probably happen when we get him neutered at 18 months).


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Poodles are one of the most 'at risk' breeds. Deep chested, don'cha know. 

Yes you should seriously consider gastropexy. It's usually done at the same time as neutering.


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

With female dogs it is usually done with a spay. When I discussed an elective gastropexy with my breeder, she always recommends that timetable for females, because the surgery is in the same general neighborhood. She said I could do it at another time for my male, but have it done before he's 4 as the risk increases with age. Keep in mind, some vets think it is unnecessary or do not have a lot of experience with the procedure so you may have to research credentials.


----------



## Rusty (Jun 13, 2012)

If you search this forum for "gastropexy," you'll find several older threads that talk about research and pros/cons of the surgery.

We had a gastropexy done on our older spoo just before he was a year old, at the same time he was neutered. We chose to have the whole thing done laparoscopically by a vet specialist (our regular vet referred us). There were three small incisions (an inch long or less), and his recovery was very easy. We plan to have the same thing done for our new spoo puppy when he's around a year old, too. 

We did find that the cost of the surgery varied significantly. The traditional open surgery (larger incision) was the least expensive, and the laparoscopic was the most expensive (but cheaper at the veterinary teaching program at a university in a neighbouring province).


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

Rusty said:


> If you search this forum for "gastropexy," you'll find several older threads that talk about research and pros/cons of the surgery.
> 
> We had a gastropexy done on our older spoo just before he was a year old, at the same time he was neutered. We chose to have the whole thing done laparoscopically by a vet specialist (our regular vet referred us). There were three small incisions (an inch long or less), and his recovery was very easy. We plan to have the same thing done for our new spoo puppy when he's around a year old, too.
> 
> We did find that the cost of the surgery varied significantly. The traditional open surgery (larger incision) was the least expensive, and the laparoscopic was the most expensive (but cheaper at the veterinary teaching program at a university in a neighbouring province).


And a big old sticky http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/11388-gastric-dilatation-volvulus-bloat.html

How much was the laparscopic surgery if you don't mind me asking ?


----------



## shelhey (Jul 16, 2014)

Yes, I am curious as well. Thanks. I assume this wouldn't be covered if we have pet insurance?


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

The Gastropexy will not be covered. I was just quoted $3k for the micro surgery version. Haven't got a price for the old school style. I did read that even though the old style sounds terrible the recovery is very very fast. BUT you need to make sure the vet doing it has a good track record.


----------



## Rusty (Jun 13, 2012)

If I recall correctly, the neuter and gastropexy together were about $2,100. But the vet school at University of Saskatoon quoted us about $700. There's definitely a wide range out there.

Edited to add, that things like this are why I always have to think twice about people who say that $1,500 or $2,000 is too much to pay for a purebred dog... the purchase price is just the tip of the iceberg!


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Selhey, it is usually only done on Spoos, If I had a Spoo though I would most likely choose to do it.


----------



## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

GSDs I had experience with as police dogs suffered as much from bloat as spoos. Gastropexy made little difference to the statistics and was discontinued. This was with over 100 dogs as a population base. Spoos???
Eric


----------



## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

The gastropexy does not prevent bloat, it prevents torsion of the stomach. It's the torsion, or twisting, that is deadly. I have Danes and it's pretty much routine to have the pexy done with a spay or neuter. I had a traditional pexy done as a solo surgery and it ran me about $400 in Atlantic Canada. It would have been less than $300 if I had of done it with his neuter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

This link has some interesting facts about the increase in occurrence.

The stat they quote is 95% successful in stopping recurrence with no evidence to suggest it would be any different for first time occurrence. 

Poodles-at-Play


----------



## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

thank you everyone for your input! 

I think I'm leaning toward gastropexy when he gets neutered. I'd rather be safe than sorry, even with the added cost. I'm sure he'll be sore a little longer, but I imagine a preventative surgery will be much less painful than a twisted stomach down the road. 

I was planning on waiting until he was 18 months to get him fixed, but I'll ask the vet when I take him on Monday. Hopefully, since I'm living in a college town with a vet school in the top 20 in the country, I'll be able to find someone willing to do the stapling.

thanks again!


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

During the life of my last Spoo I had never even heard of this and hence had no concerns.

Now I know about it I feel I am almost forced to do the surgery because I could not live with the worry and guilt if anything happened.


----------



## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

There is no "hard evidence" that the surgery will prevent torsion. But qualified opinion is, that it "should" help prevent it. 
Eric


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

How could there be no evidence? You would think that enough have been done by now that they could study the results.


----------



## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

homemadehitshow said:


> During the life of my last Spoo I had never even heard of this and hence had no concerns.
> 
> Now I know about it I feel I am almost forced to do the surgery because I could not live with the worry and guilt if anything happened.



Totally agree. I've never had a Spoo, only Toys, but by researching and understanding different health issues of Poodles, it's always best to be safe than sorry. I also agree with the others about doing the surgery with the spay/neuter. Makes a lot of sense.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Tiny Poodles said:


> How could there be no evidence?


Well there is evidence really. I had Tonka pexied a few years ago. He hasn't torsioned since. That's evidence enuf for me.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Tiny Poodles said:


> How could there be no evidence? You would think that enough have been done by now that they could study the results.



To get concrete evidence you would have to have pexied dogs followed against a matched cohort of un-pexied dogs and follow both over their life times. The numbers in each group would have to be very large (in the thousands) to reduce biases based on owners choosing the surgery because of some experience with bloat in a previous or that dog and in the lines their dog is from. Even Eric's population of 100 GSD is too small a group to decipher the difference between coincidence and causality by my way of thinking.

BTW no pexy on Lily, probably not on Javelin either.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

After experiencing bloat twice in five weeks on my Mom's silver heart dog whom I inherited, I implore my puppy buyers to have the gastropexy done and encourage their humans to do it when they are spayed or neutered, reducing the risk of anesthetizing twice. It is the most horrific thing I have ever witnessed and would do anything, ANYTHING to put the odds in a dog's favour. We ended up having our old lad euthanized the second time.


----------



## Spoos+Ponies (Mar 26, 2014)

I hadn't heard of this until I joined the forum. I spoke to my holistic vet about it when I got Magda and she is not for it. She said the dog is usually upside down when the procedure is done putting the stomach in an unnatural position and she says there have been many cases of digestion problems and acid and regurgitation issues. She hasn't' had one case of bloat since coming to this vet clinic in 5 years and believes it's due to the vast majority of clients being raw feeders. I feed raw, and am very careful with exercise times and feeding. I feed one hour after exercise, or 2 hours before.

I am curious about it from a breeding perspective as well. Not sure how strong an association genetics has with it, but if breeding stock is pexied, and it did prevent it, then how would you know if you were passing along a propensity to bloat? Would this then proliferate the tendency throughout the gene pool?


----------



## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

Spoos+Ponies said:


> I hadn't heard of this until I joined the forum. I spoke to my holistic vet about it when I got Magda and she is not for it. She said the dog is usually upside down when the procedure is done putting the stomach in an unnatural position and she says there have been many cases of digestion problems and acid and regurgitation issues. She hasn't' had one case of bloat since coming to this vet clinic in 5 years and believes it's due to the vast majority of clients being raw feeders. I feed raw, and am very careful with exercise times and feeding. I feed one hour after exercise, or 2 hours before.
> 
> 
> 
> I am curious about it from a breeding perspective as well. Not sure how strong an association genetics has with it, but if breeding stock is pexied, and it did prevent it, then how would you know if you were passing along a propensity to bloat? Would this then proliferate the tendency throughout the gene pool?



This is absolutely not true. Just in my immediate group of friends I know of at least 6 dogs who have bloated, one of my own included, and none were raw fed. Gastric torsion is the number one killer in danes, and if a preventative gastropexy can prevent that I will always recommend it. My vet in my previous city was the go to vet for most show breeders in the area and he's the one who asked me if I would be pexying at the same time as my boy's neuter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I think Spoos+ponies said the vet said the dogs she sees are raw fed and did not bloat......kayla_baxter, you say you know 6 dogs who have bloated and none were raw fed. Isn't this backing what Spoos+ponies stated? Why is it not true?


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Spoos+Ponies said:


> I am curious about it from a breeding perspective as well. Not sure how strong an association genetics has with it,


Good question! Probably one of the more studied aspects of large breed breeding. No genetic link has ever been established.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> Good question! Probably one of the more studied aspects of large breed breeding. No genetic link has ever been established.


A genetic link is strongly suspected. There is a study underway at Tufts to determine the genetic differences in predisposed dogs who do bloat and those who do not.

From a breeding perspective, most knowledgeable breeders take the approach of not breeding affected dogs and using extreme caution breeding littermates to dogs who have bloated or dogs who have a trend of bloat in the line. It DOES appear to be pretty clearly familial when you look at lines.

And...raw fed dogs bloat. It's currently thought that it doesn't matter what you feed, how you feed, or when you feed. Stress is probably the biggest environmental trigger. CHF has a great podcast I've posted many times on this forum. Search for it using the search function above. It's well worth the time!

The point made about pexying breeding dogs is a good one and one I've thought a lot about.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> It DOES appear to be pretty clearly familial when you look at lines.


Oh ya, smartiepants?? 

That's the first I've heard of it. I've been following the rabies study but I didn't know there was one on bloat. But then... the other thing I was thinking of adding to my comment but didn't, is that it's not talked about a lot.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

As a breeder, I would not have the surgery done on my breeding dogs. I think this would be unethical. Not all puppies end up having it because some people do not understand the severity of bloat and others simply cannot afford it. So, you still have a general idea of whether or not it is in your line.

My opinion is, it is not genetic, but the build of the puppies is, and that can be where the problem lies.


----------



## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

We talked about whether to have a gastropexy done at the same time we spayed Abbey for months, but suddenly the decision was closer than expected. I was swayed to have it done by those who said "I'd never not have it done again" after experiencing it with their poodle. My husband was of the mind "if it's not broke, don't fix it", so in the end it was better safe than sorry I suppose. We didn't have any real knowledge on the procedure or whether it was effective or not, so in the end I guess it was just a gut feeling and what one can afford.
Sadly, I don't think everyone can afford to have a pet and look after whatever may come up. We have never had pet insurance before, but after Gracie's bills we decided to get it for Abbey.


----------



## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> After experiencing bloat twice in five weeks on my Mom's silver heart dog whom I inherited, I implore my puppy buyers to have the gastropexy done and encourage their humans to do it when they are spayed or neutered, reducing the risk of anesthetizing twice. It is the most horrific thing I have ever witnessed and would do anything, ANYTHING to put the odds in a dog's favour. We ended up having our old lad euthanized the second time.





ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> As a breeder, I would not have the surgery done on my breeding dogs. I think this would be unethical. Not all puppies end up having it because some people do not understand the severity of bloat and others simply cannot afford it. So, you still have a general idea of whether or not it is in your line.
> 
> My opinion is, it is not genetic, but the build of the puppies is, and that can be where the problem lies.


Do you mean on your breeding dogs ever? Because I am having a hard time understanding your logic otherwise. Once your dogs are no longer part of your breeding program would you tack? I am not being difficult but questioning if you would not want your puppy buyer's and their pups (dog) to go through the pain and suffering of bloat and/or torsion why would you wish the possibility of such suffering on your own dogs?  Or do you think tacking a breeding dog- ever - skews the statistics of the risk of bloat or torsion in your line? I do not think it is unethical to love your breeding stock as much as puppy buyers love their pups (dogs). 

My opinion it is build of dog along with stress that is a precursor to bloat.


----------



## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Having spoken with our vet, I've decided to have a gastropexy performed on Jasper when he gets neutered. She did not bring it up herself, but when i mentioned it she said that yes, she does suggest it and always at the same time as de-sexing (and hadn't brought it up herself only because a few minutes earlier we had agreed that I was going to wait at least a year to get Jasper fixed).

I was quoted ~$600 for the gastropexy, but that was when it was done alongside the neuter, so that's the cost WITHOUT anesthesia, etc. I'm not sure what type of gastropexy it is though - i will have to check when i call to schedule his next set of shots.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Since you're not opening them up anyway for spaying, I believe that most 'pexies are done laproscopically on boys.


----------



## Siskojan (Mar 13, 2011)

Sisko was done after a near-miss bloat experience. He had been very stressed in the few days before it happened. Cost in the Lower Mainland of BC in 2012 was about $2100 for the open belt loop type procedure. The laparascopic would have been almost twice that. Our vet at the time, who we had known and trusted for 20 + years, thought that while the standard op was more traumatic it gave a much more reliable result and that from what he'd read there was a bigger chance of the laparascopic version failing. He did not do the procedure himself and only had Sisko's long term interests at heart. Trupanion paid for it because it was considered as treatment for a dog who had almost bloated (but of course they would not have paid the laparascopic fee and we would have gladly paid for it if we'd been convinced it was better)

Before the next bit I should point out that our Sisko is a bit wussy and doesn't really recover well from anesthesia. The recovery was awful - no 2 ways about it. He was in a lot of pain (even with meds)and could barely move. Trying to get him to lie down and rest was the most painful. He did sleep some the first night but the next day he refused to lie down and cried and fell asleep leaning his muzzle between our legs with his back end wobbling, it took us hours to get him to let us help him to lie down. He was not allowed to do stairs for 2 weeks and was not allowed any walks for a week and then only a block. We slept on mattresses on the floor with him for 3 weeks.

Now I've read about the dogs who don't have any problems and are bounding about in no time flat but the vet who operated was insistent the gastropexy could only work reliably and not tear out if it is allowed to fully heal and form proper scar tissue.

It was a very bad time but today the big ugly incision's scar is nowhere to be seen, lost somewhere in his tummy fur and it can't be felt either. he recovered fully and was back to leaping and jumping. He was not "psychologically" scarred by it and was always happy to go tail wagging back to that vets office and as much as we can, we have peace of mind.


----------



## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Just as an update regarding cost: My vet charges $600 for a laproscopic gastropexy when it is done at the same time as the neuter (the neuter itself is ~200 dollars, including anesthesia, etc). For location reference, we are in a decently sized central Illinois city.


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

A specialist center in San Jose CA is asking $3000 for laproscopic.

Our vets has totally confused us. There are 4 vets there, 2 have recommended it if we want, 1 has said not necessary and 1 has said don't do it.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Siskojan said:


> Sisko was done after a near-miss bloat experience. He had been very stressed in the few days before it happened. Cost in the Lower Mainland of BC in 2012 was about $2100 for the open belt loop type procedure. The laparascopic would have been almost twice that. Our vet at the time, who we had known and trusted for 20 + years, thought that while the standard op was more traumatic it gave a much more reliable result and that from what he'd read there was a bigger chance of the laparascopic version failing. He did not do the procedure himself and only had Sisko's long term interests at heart. Trupanion paid for it because it was considered as treatment for a dog who had almost bloated (but of course they would not have paid the laparascopic fee and we would have gladly paid for it if we'd been convinced it was better)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hum, if you don't mind my going very off topic, can I ask if you are certain that Trupanion would not have paid for the laparoscopic procedure, but did pay for the open? 
I ask that because they were my second pick after Petplan for insurance companies, and I usually tell people that they would do fine choosing either company, but if Trupanion is taking a hand in customers deciding which procedure to do, forcing them to choose the least expensive one, that is a huge negative that Petplan does not have! Petplan stays completely out of medical decisions, and pays for whatever you and your Vet decide is best, period!


----------



## Siskojan (Mar 13, 2011)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Hum, if you don't mind my going very off topic, can I ask if you are certain that Trupanion would not have paid for the laparoscopic procedure, but did pay for the open?
> I ask that because they were my second pick after Petplan for insurance companies, and I usually tell people that they would do fine choosing either company, but if Trupanion is taking a hand in customers deciding which procedure to do, forcing them to choose the least expensive one, that is a huge negative that Petplan does not have! Petplan stays completely out of medical decisions, and pays for whatever you and your Vet decide is best, period!


Yes I'm sure as I talked to a representative on the phone. I was not as happy with having the laparascopic done anyway based on things I had read and the opinion of our trusted vet and other vets in his office. He didn't have a horse in the race and would have referred us to a different vet for either procedure. Vet costs here are very expensive compared to other places it seems and I think it's reasonable for a company not to pay twice as much for a procedure that is not definitively proven to be more effective.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Agreed. Personally, I'm uncertain if I would elect to do the laparoscopic procedure. I've heard some opinions that the traditional belt loop may be the most effective.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Siskojan said:


> Yes I'm sure as I talked to a representative on the phone. I was not as happy with having the laparascopic done anyway based on things I had read and the opinion of our trusted vet and other vets in his office. He didn't have a horse in the race and would have referred us to a different vet for either procedure. Vet costs here are very expensive compared to other places it seems and I think it's reasonable for a company not to pay twice as much for a procedure that is not definitively proven to be more effective.



Well I am glad that it was the same decision that you would have made anyhow, but you just made me so glad that I picked Petplan - they do not manage care at all, whatever you and your Vet decide is the best treatment for your dog is what they pay for, no matter the price!


----------

