# Doodles



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

This forum leans to a different audience than their customer base, so I expect you will receive unenthusiastic responses. Stepping back from the doodle vs poodle controversy, my concern is that they have 14 upcoming litters listed on their web site. I prefer to work with a smaller breeder. I like to think that my puppy's parents live in a house, get to go on outings with their humans, and have happy doggy lives when they aren't being parents. The logistics of socializing 14 litters seems rather difficult.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome to Poodle Forum, @Ivette! I'm going to move this thread over to our breeder directory. (Looks like you inadvertently landed in the section reserved for our monthly photo contests.)

As far as that breeder goes, the 11-month spay/neuter requirement alone would have me looking elsewhere. Many of our members have researched and posted about this topic, if you feel like reading more about it. But opinion has been leaning in recent years towards a later spay/neuter. Especially for large breeds who take longer to physically mature.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

This forum is for poodles, and you would probably find it quite difficult to find a doodle breeder that meets the standards of high quality poodle breeders. As with most trendy mixes, doodle breeders tend to be in it more for the money than for producing quality dogs that meet a standard. But there are doodle breeders out there that do a much better job than the listed breeder. I am not going to recommend any as I believe it's against the forum rules, but if your heart is set on a mix rather than a well bred poodle you can still find breeders that are more ethical than this one.

There are numerous issues I would have with this breeder. I agree with those mentioned above. In addition, I would want documentation for all the health testing. The way it's discussed on the website makes me question whether it's truly been completed. Test results are only mentioned for sires, not dams, and even then the hips are usually referred to as "normal" which isn't a term used by OFA testing.

Also, they price everything out based on color which is not something a reputable breeder does. In addition, they clearly don't know much about poodles because they refer to dogs as cafe au lait when they clearly aren't. 

Their many many dogs seem to live in kennels. They say some live with guardian homes. But they also say they retire females at age 5 and donate them to be trained as service dogs. I have _never_ heard of a dog that old being trained as a service dog by a reputable trainer/organization. When I tried to click on the links the websites couldn't be found. So I am a bit skeptical of this.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

You should try searching “golden doodle” or “doodle” here on PoodleForum. It is sure to be educational


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome to PF! 

I'm sorry that we really don't have a lot of input to offer. As mentioned, poodles are what PF is about. That said, also as mentioned, most everything you see discussed about choosing a breeder for purebred poodles goes double for a cross breeder because two different breeds are involved. As an fyi, the golden/labra/etc/oodles are not actually a recognized breed. It takes generations of knowledgeable breeders and very selective breedings to create a reproducible genetic result identifiable as a separate breed.

That said, they can be wonderful pets but do your research. If you're hoping for hypoallergenic or nonshedding, you're likely to need to look for the F1 or F2 B's or BB's. (info below from welovedoodles)

*F1 Goldendoodle: *_50% Poodle & 50% Golden Retriever_
_*F1B Goldendoodle: *75% Poodle & 25% Golden Retriever_
_*F1BB Goldendoodle*: 87.5% Poodle & 12.5% Golden Retriever_
_*F2 Goldendoodle: *50% Poodle & 50% Golden Retriever_
_*F2B Goldendoodle: * 62.5% Poodle & 37.5% Golden Retriever_
_*F2BB Goldendoodle:* 81.25% Poodle & 18.75% Golden Retriever_
_*F3 Goldendoodle or Multi-generation Goldendoodle:* Several generations of Goldendoodle breeding typically backcross breeding to the Standard Poodle._
_*Tip: People generally prefer Goldendoodles that have more Poodle genetics.*

Typically, Goldendoodles are backcross bred to the Standard Poodle for the hypoallergenic and nonshedding genes_



My best recommendation would be to learn what a quality, conscientious poodle breeder does to be considered that within poodle breed standards. Then learn what a quality, conscientious golden breeder does to be considered that within their breed standards.

At a minimum, each breed has different heritable health issues so look for what those health issues are and find a breeder who tests each (presumably) purebred parent for that breed's issues.
You'll find that info available at OFA, the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals.
https://www.ofa.org/ 








Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Browse our Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) to view disease statistics for various dog breeds. Contribute to the database by ordering a DNA test.




www.ofa.org





I found this site interesting and informative when doing some research for another thread.








Recommended Dog Breeders, Rescues, Buying Guides & More! - We Love Doodles


We are a website that is dedicated to dogs! If you have a dog, are looking to rescue, or purchase a puppy, we are here to help!




welovedoodles.com





One more thing...be sure to read carefully and completely thru the purchase contract, deposit process, any health warranty/guarantee on their dogs, be sure you understand it fully and can live with the terms. 
Also, if I were researching a breeder for myself, I'd ask for links to the health test results directly on the testing or reporting site. 
Good luck!


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

@Ivette If you have your heart set on a doodle, I hope you go for a labradoodle and not a golden doodle. Golden Retrievers have the highest cancer rate of every breed. It's so bad that the Golden Retriever Forum has an entire section devoted to this with over 30,000 posts.

If you like that goldie look, labradoodles also come in golden, and you can check out the Labradoodle Forum which will help you find a better breeder.

Also as Rose said above, Labradoodles also come in F1, F2, F3 etc generation categories.


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## BarbaraInJersey (Oct 10, 2020)

because our experience was with a mini goldendoodle we started our search with them before deciding health issues were so important a poodle is the wiser choice.
that said,some doodle breeders are organizing and self rating/regulating with the major health tests done on parents.
this means both poodle Breed tests and gold or lab Breed tests. Knees, hips, eyes, cancer. Etc etc.
I now know a breeder has this option, so we can be very careful and physically see test results and parents.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

I still don't condone it

but I've seen a rise in "working" doodles (for sport) that I don't hate. There is health testing done, and etc.. Something I can get with. Bred for a purpose not just because they're cute


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

BarbaraInJersey said:


> because our experience was with a mini goldendoodle we started our search with them before deciding health issues were so important a poodle is the wiser choice.
> 
> that said,some doodle breeders are organizing and self rating/regulating with the major health tests done on parents. this means both poodle Breed tests and gold or lab Breed tests. Knees, hips, eyes, cancer. Etc etc.


Barbara, I'm glad you're going for a poodle for one very important reason. You mentioned in your Intro your age, and here that some doodle breeders are reaching for excellence in their program regarding to DNA and other testing, but one thing they have difficulty in controlling is temperament. 

For unknown reasons a lot of labradoodles and golden doodles are extremely high energy to the point it's like they're wired and have no off switch, which is especially hard for an older person to handle. They've even been called crazy more times than I can count, so selecting a really calm one as a puppy is critical. But the thing is, with pure poodles or labs or GR's, you pretty know what you're getting in terms of temperament; at the same time always observe the temperament of the mother, and if available, the father, even with purebreds.

Meanwhile, how is your search going for a poodle?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Vita said:


> For unknown reasons a lot of labradoodles and golden doodles are extremely high energy to the point it's like they're wired and have no off switch, which is especially hard for an older person to handle. They've even been called crazy more times than I can count


I know a few goldendoodle owners in this situation and they always say "It's the poodle part that's crazy!" Looking down at my couch potato as I type this, I can only shake my head.

Peggy's known for her off-switch in our circle of doggy friends. I'm sure a big part of that is our approach to training, but temperament and poodle intelligence sure make the job a whole lot easier.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I've known quite a few Goldens that were just plain bonkers. Nice dogs, but really hyper. It was actually kind of startling to me when I was finally exposed to some well bred Goldens and saw what the breed temperament was supposed to be like It wouldn't surprise me if the bonkers variety found its way into some doodle lines.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

All our local Goldens are bonkers. To my knowledge, there are two different breeders churning them out here, and they're absolutely the type of people that would think nothing of sending one of their dogs off to be part of a doodle-for-profit program.

To be fair, though, we've also got some nutty local poodles. Unscrupulous breeders abound.


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## BarbaraInJersey (Oct 10, 2020)

Vita said:


> Barbara, I'm glad you're going for a poodle for one very important reason. You mentioned in your Intro your age, and here that some doodle breeders are reaching for excellence in their program regarding to DNA and other testing, but one thing they have difficulty in controlling is temperament.
> 
> For unknown reasons a lot of labradoodles and golden doodles are extremely high energy to the point it's like they're wired and have no off switch, which is especially hard for an older person to handle. They've even been called crazy more times than I can count, so selecting a really calm one as a puppy is critical. But the thing is, with pure poodles or labs or GR's, you pretty know what you're getting in terms of temperament; at the same time always observe the temperament of the mother, and if available, the father, even with purebreds.
> 
> Meanwhile, how is your search going for a poodle?


Yes we heard about the temperament issues. In fact the perfect doodle we know arrived from breeder With full size doodle puppy for second family member. I understand that he has been hyper for all these 13 years. As noted owner asked for the laziest puppy, and has told me to do the same.

my search is not been fruitful so far. Started by reading websites, and torn trying to decide mini or standard.
like the Klein/Moyen. assume most are just too big/small which works for us But am unsure of marketing is ethical.
My online reading shows almost all breeders are booked out to end of 2021. Some I assume small breeders state til end of 2022. Some increasing prices beyond my range.
even a break even kennel may need to charge above my limit.

I have written to three breeders, with no response which I understand is common. Booked up and busy I bet.

other issue I am not sure how To phrase. 

As I read and research, some dog breeders online websites claim a show line is less healthy, less trainable. Does not make sense to me, but are show lines that different in a negative way?

although I am not comfortable with a dog raised in a kennel instead of inside with people, since I want a dog that will be inside with people, not in a show.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

BarbaraInJersey said:


> I want a dog that will be inside with people, not in a show.


 This is something of a common misperception. For breeders who happen to show their dogs as part of their breeding program, if they're lucky, there may be a single pup out of several litters that might have show potential and you can bet they're going to keep that pup for themselves or possibly co-own with another breeder who is looking to enhance their own line. The rest of those litters go to lucky us, the general poodle buying I Want A Pet public . 

Any breeder claiming to sell "show quality" pups from any/every litter is not someone I'd be looking at for myself. 
Think of it simply as a breeder who shows their dogs to prove that they meet breed standards, can perform physically as expected, and are the best poodles they can offer to anyone, not just to a show ring. 



BarbaraInJersey said:


> As I read and research, some dog breeders online websites claim a show line is less healthy, less trainable.


 I can't help but wonder if only breeders who don't show would say that to justify why they don't. 



BarbaraInJersey said:


> I have written to three breeders, with no response which I understand is common. Booked up and busy I bet.


If there's a phone number, it can't hurt to try a phone call too. 



BarbaraInJersey said:


> other issue I am not sure how To phrase.


Start with something very simple, your history with dogs, why you have decided a poodle is the dog for you, how you heard about them and when is a good time for further conversation? 
*_*

"I don’t want a show dog; I just want a pet. 
by Joanna Kimball on July 13, 2010 

This is one of the most pervasive sentiments that puppy buyers, especially families, express when they're looking for a dog. What they really mean, of course, is that they don't want a show BREEDER – don't want to pay the high price they think show breeders charge, don't want to go through the often-invasive interview process, and think that they're getting a better deal or a real bargain because they can get a Lab for $300 or a Shepherd for $150. 

I want you to change your mind. I want you to not only realize the benefits of buying a show-bred dog, I want you to INSIST on a show-bred dog. And I want you to realize that the cheap dog is really the one that's the rip-off. And then I want you to go be obnoxious and, when your workmate says she's getting a puppy because her neighbor, who raises them, will give her one for free, or when your brother-in-law announces that they're buying a goldendoodle for the kids, I want you to launch yourself into their solar plexus and steal their wallets and their car keys. 

Here's why: 

If I ask you why you want a Maltese, or a Lab, or a Leonberger, or a Cardigan, I would bet you're not going to talk about how much you like their color. You're going to tell me things about personality, ability (to perform a specific task), relationships with other animals or humans, size, coat, temperament, and so on. You'll describe playing ball, or how affectionate you've heard that they are, or how well they get along with kids. 

The things you will be looking for aren't the things that describe just "dog"; they'll be the things that make this particular breed unique and unlike other breeds. 

That's where people have made the right initial decision – they've taken the time and made the effort to understand that there are differences between breeds and that they should get one that at least comes close to matching their picture of what they want a dog to be. 

Their next step, tragically, is that they go out and find a dog of that breed for as little money and with as much ease as possible. 

You need to realize that when you do this, you're going to the used car dealership, WATCHING them pry the "Audi" plate off a new car, observing them as they use Bondo to stick it on a '98 Corolla, and then writing them a check and feeling smug that you got an Audi for so little. 

It is no bargain. 

Those things that distinguish the breed you want from the generic world of "dog" are only there because somebody worked really hard to get them there. And as soon as that work ceases, the dog, no matter how purebred, begins to revert to the generic. That doesn't mean you won't get a good dog – the magic and the blessing of dogs is that they are so hard to mess up, in their good souls and minds, that even the most hideously bred one can still be a great dog – but it will not be a good Shepherd, or good Puli, or a good Cardigan. You will not get the specialized abilities, tendencies, or talents of the breed. 

If you don't NEED those special abilities or the predictability of a particular breed, you should not be buying a dog at all. You should go rescue one. That way you're saving a life and not putting money in pockets where it does not belong. 

If you want a purebred and you know that a rescue is not going to fit the bill, the absolute WORST thing you can do is assume that a name equals anything. They really are nothing more than name plates on cars. What matters is whether the engineering and design and service department back up the name plate, so you have some expectation that you're walking away with more than a label. 

Keeping a group of dogs looking and acting like their breed is hard, HARD work. If you do not get the impression that the breeder you're considering is working that hard, is that dedicated to the breed, is struggling to produce dogs that are more than a breed name, you are getting no bargain; you are only getting ripped off." 

****** 

This doesn't mean a breeder who doesn't compete with their dogs can't produce wonderful dogs too. In a way, the breeders investment in proper breed testing, competing, socializing puppies, all these and more are like insurance for the new family. They're not absolute guarantees, but they can sure be a benefit.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

BarbaraInJersey said:


> like the Klein/Moyen. assume most are just too big/small which works for us But am unsure of marketing is ethical.


The medium variety is not a recognized variety (size) in the North American registries. In NA, they are simply smaller standards based on the poodle breed standards. It is a primarily European size, recognized by the FCI.

There are only a very, very few breeders in the US who are importing true medium's from the countries that recognize that size officially. Most of the folks calling their poodles "medium" are either interbreeding standards and minis (not a well thought of idea), or they simply have miniatures who exceed the 15" limit, or standards who are on the small side of typical, so you're right to look them over very carefully.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

BarbaraInJersey said:


> Some increasing prices beyond my range.


Even in these times, quality, conscientious breeders won't be raising prices to take advantage of the situation we're all in. Whether for a toy, miniature or standard you should be able to find a quality pup from a quality breeder in the range from a low end of $1500 to a high end at $3000, with $2000/2500 most likely.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This is the last here, I promise  I will drop one more resource back in your post in Member Introductions. I feel bad hijacking this thread even tho the OP has edited their post out.

Have you seen the Breeder List? 








🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com





Read thru the health resources to get familiar with what to look for from a breeder, if you're not already. Look thru the Poodle Club of America site to find the Poodle Club for your area then contact the breeder referral person. 
Look thru the multi state listing too, for breeders in the areas you're comfortable going. It will help if you can settle on a size but there are more than a few breeders who will have mini's and standards.


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## BarbaraInJersey (Oct 10, 2020)

Wow thanks for all the info and help! our Sheltie who just passed away was from show kennel. sire was ch and ROM with 13 champion offspring including another ROM. he was from frozen sperm of her beloved dog. We did not know any of that, or what it meant at first, though we read up on titles, and later on i would look at Westminster show shelties to find his 3rd cousin once removed Every year. We assumed he was eccentric because it was his personality but I read a few harsh comments on show lines this week and was bothered enough to ask.
we had assumed the prices you mentioned, but $3,000, $3500 and $4000 and up are online plus new thing is the breeder trains puppy til 14 weeks and cost is $10,000 to $15,000. 
I am looking at various sites because as noted wait lists are full. if I put a $500 deposit for a pup for winter 2021 I might still wait longer depending on litter sizes in meantime. want to be very sure. 
starting to wonder WHY a breeder has a litter arriving this next 6 months. Covid crazies.
i have so much to learn here.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

BarbaraInJersey said:


> Wow thanks for all the info and help! our Sheltie who just passed away was from show kennel. sire was ch and ROM with 13 champion offspring including another ROM. he was from frozen sperm of her beloved dog. We did not know any of that, or what it meant at first, though we read up on titles, and later on i would look at Westminster show shelties to find his 3rd cousin once removed Every year. We assumed he was eccentric because it was his personality but I read a few harsh comments on show lines this week and was bothered enough to ask.
> we had assumed the prices you mentioned, but $3,000, $3500 and $4000 and up are online plus new thing is the breeder trains puppy til 14 weeks and cost is $10,000 to $15,000.
> I am looking at various sites because as noted wait lists are full. if I put a $500 deposit for a pup for winter 2021 I might still wait longer depending on litter sizes in meantime. want to be very sure.
> starting to wonder WHY a breeder has a litter arriving this next 6 months. Covid crazies.
> i have so much to learn here.


Any breeder charging over $3k is one I would be very cautious of. That screams disreputable breeder to me because they're raising prices simply because they can during the current puppy shortage. Good breeders aren't breeding for profit like that.

I tend to believe that show line dogs tend to have good temperaments. Think about the show environment. These dogs have to be okay with being handled by strangers, touched by judges, being around strange dogs, kids, weird surroundings, flying by plane, being crated for hours, etc. It's actually extremely demanding and a dog with a poor temperament should have a hard time. Of course that doesn't mean dogs with poor temperament are _never_ bred based on their good looks, but a breeder is making a risky choice when they do that. If your dog has a poor temperament they will fail in the show ring just as surely as if they had a serious structural fault. Of course, dogs with poor temperament can pop up in any line occasionally. And I would always recommend meeting the parent dogs if possible to be sure that you like their temperaments.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

BarbaraInJersey said:


> plus new thing is the breeder trains puppy til 14 weeks and cost is $10,000 to $15,000.


Ummm...avoid avoid avoid. This sounds like more padding for profit. This does not sound like the quality, conscientious breeders usually recommended by members.

What kind of training are they doing? Beginning computer programming? I'm frankly floored.

Look thru the Breeder List, even randomly, and let me know if you find any that have that as a requirement, or even an option. I will too.

I think by looking thru the websites of breeders that have been recommended, you'll get more familiar with what to look for of substance and what's more window dressing.



BarbaraInJersey said:


> starting to wonder WHY a breeder has a litter arriving this next 6 months. Covid crazies.


Yes, be cautious if they have repeated litters available. That's a caution flag.

We've had a few new members quite recently find a breeder they were happy with, with some help by PF in suggestions and things to look for, and there have been a couple of serendipitous meetings of timing and availability, so it's possible to be legit.

If there's a breeder you're considering or have already ruled out, do a Search of PF to see if there's any comments or threads where members have already offered opinions. Or, if you're comfortable giving names, some of us will look over your shoulder.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Yikes, don't get me started on Doodles!


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