# Unusual aggressive behaviors.



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have noticed mood changes in Sophy just before she comes into season - she tends to want more cuddling and possibly to be a bit more protective of her space. But I would also check that there isn't some other underlying cause, especially if this is the first time Aria has shown this sort of behaviour. Perhaps something is causing her pain, or one of your son's friends has been unusually boisterous or pushy. I think I would ask them to leave her alone as she is feeling a bit delicate, and meanwhile check her over for any sore spots or other troubles.


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## Feelingdoc (Feb 18, 2014)

As much as I'd like to believe it - I don't think poodles are exempt from dominance issues. I think they can be trained to be well behaved...but we should be on our guard when we notice aggressive behaviors and dominating behaviors. I think knowing the things that stress out your dog keeps you more aware of how to watch for aggression. I'm not sure about mood shifts in hormonal dogs but it makes sense. Hope she returns to "normal" and this doesn't become a problem.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't have experience with dogs and estrus cycles, but FJM always has good advice.  I've heard other people say their intact bitches get, well, bitchy during their seasons.

I do know that the issue isn't dominance: 
ASVAB position statement on dominance in dogs
Dominance Myths and Dog Training Realities
Dominance and Dog Training

I'd suggest a complete vet check specifically for the behavior change. There are a number of medical conditions that can cause a behavior change, but they're not routinely checked for. You might want wait until her season is over and simply manage her behavior by keeping her away from your son's friends, keeping her off your bed while your son is around, and other steps you need to take to keep everyone safe. If her behavior escalates, I'd make a vet appointment sooner rather than later.

It's also possible that Aria is resource guarding (you, her bed, her space). Here is a good piece on resource guarding that offers some insight and training strategies.

For the issue of reacting to your son's friends, you can desensitize and counter-condition. Sophia Yin has a nice video: Training Aggression? Counter-conditioning a Dog to Blowing in Face


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thank you guys for your insight. I'm pretty confident she is not in any pain, but of course I am always on the look out for any indications that may show that she is.. Thank you @cookieface for the resource guarding link, its very possible that is what may be going on and I will look into the training tips to break it.

As for my sons friend, she has never been alone with them, when I'm in the room with them she is not allowed to leave my side and if I leave the room she comes with me. So I know they have done nothing to provoke her behavior, and when they come over to pet her they have always been very gentle. She is a show dog, and is so used to strangers touching her and crowding her, but I will also look into the deserve size and counter conditioning. Up until this last couple of weeks, if I told her it was ok when someone came in the house she would immediately stand down from her patrol and greet them with hugs and kisses, now she is getting more upset when people she doesn't know very well are coming into the house. 
If her behaviors do not turn around after she is done with her season, I will have our vet take a closer look and make sure nothing more serious is going on; and of course if she starts showing other signs I will bring her in sooner. Its comforting knowing that it is not unusual for an intact bitch to be hormonal during this time. Its her 3rd heat cycle and the first too she just was very lathargic and cuddly and very needy, I don't recall any attitude though. She definitely does not get away with it, I would die if she bit someone or developed more behaviors if it was ignored

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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

Out of curiosity, when you say, "She definitely does not get away with it," what does that mean?


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

She is immediately ordered off the bed and into a down position for roughly 30 seconds with no acknowledgement and not allowed back on the bed until my son has left the room. 

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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

I forgot to mention, that after she is released from the down position, she is acknowledged again, and by that point she is all lovey again and so my son will love all over her and she will be all tail wags and kisses which she gets praised for from both me and him. 

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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

hunny518 said:


> She is immediately ordered off the bed and into a down position for roughly 30 seconds with no acknowledgement and not allowed back on the bed until my son has left the room.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You are successfully removing a reinforcer, which could be the comfortable bed or proximity to you, or both, which punishes the growling. But, this does nothing to teach her to enjoy your son coming nearby. In fact, it adds to the negative association of your son approaching. Aria's thoughts until now have been "My brother's approaching, I better ward him away lest he steals all my mom's attention or my nice soft bed!" Her thoughts as this pattern of growl-then-punish continues will be "My brother's approaching, I'm going to be put on the floor!" Basically, you're showing her she's been right all along! One of two things will then happen, she'll intensify her warning as she now knows her resources are being threatened, or she'll learn if she just sits still and quiet there will be no consequence. That doesn't mean she'll decide she's okay with it, she's just learned it's best to bottle her reaction. Several months or years down the road she could feel pushed enough to express herself, and it will likely be a bigger or more dangerous display as she'll have been pushed farther than in the past.

The good news is, it's easy to teach her to enjoy your sons approach! The Sophia Yin video by* Cookieface *should explain it well, and any article or video on counter-conditioning and desensitization. It's easy to think punishment "solves" the problem, but that's just asking for trouble. It much more reliable and fun to show them what's awesome than to show them what's "not allowed"! : )


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

PammiPoodle said:


> You are successfully removing a reinforcer, which could be the comfortable bed or proximity to you, or both, which punishes the growling. But, this does nothing to teach her to enjoy your son coming nearby. In fact, it adds to the negative association of your son approaching. Aria's thoughts until now have been "My brother's approaching, I better ward him away lest he steals all my mom's attention or my nice soft bed!" Her thoughts as this pattern of growl-then-punish continues will be "My brother's approaching, I'm going to be put on the floor!" Basically, you're showing her she's been right all along! One of two things will then happen, she'll intensify her warning as she now knows her resources are being threatened, or she'll learn if she just sits still and quiet there will be no consequence. That doesn't mean she'll decide she's okay with it, she's just learned it's best to bottle her reaction. Several months or years down the road she could feel pushed enough to express herself, and it will likely be a bigger or more dangerous display as she'll have been pushed farther than in the past.
> 
> The good news is, it's easy to teach her to enjoy your sons approach! The Sophia Yin video by* Cookieface *should explain it well, and any article or video on counter-conditioning and desensitization. It's easy to think punishment "solves" the problem, but that's just asking for trouble. It much more reliable and fun to show them what's awesome than to show them what's "not allowed"! : )


Did you see my post immediately after the post you commented on? She is praised for positive interaction with my son, but ignored for the bad. I do see your point also, and when I get a chance I will look through cookieface's links and see if there is tips that I'm not already aware of.
My biggest curiosity is if this was common for bitches coming into season. At the same time though, regardless of the reason it has started, I am doing my best to stay on top of it and eliminate it before its a real problem

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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Yes, I did, and it's great that she is happy to get attention again, and being rewarded for the positive behavior! : ) I'm just noticing (as likely is she) that she's being punished for expressing when she's uncomfortable with your son's approach. It's perfectly okay, and pretty effective, to ignore behaviors you don't like. However, the point at which she growls is after she's already decided that something is a potential threat to her. I'm simply pointing out the possible dangers of using punishment and seeing what *looks* like success, but is only a suppressed dog. I wanted to explain to you why it's important to load her up with positive feedback asap, and not rely too heavily on punishing the growling. It's only a symptom. : )

I just reread your post and I'm sorry I went on such a training tangent, anyway! My intact girl doesn't get snippy while she's in heat, but she does have a slightly different mood. She gets kind of mopey and clingy for the first few days. I've known many bitches who do get fresh around their heat, though!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Great video by Dr Yin - thanks for posting that, cookieface!


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Just want to update real quick. Aria has been in season for 6 days now and her aggression has completely disappeared, and as I suspected, Aria had a bad case of PMS. She is happy to see my sons friends again and has had no problem with him getting on the bed with us. 


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Wonderful news!!!!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That's great to hear.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

Great update! Thank you.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I would take this opportunity while her hormones have settled to make your son joining you on the bed very positive with treats,belly rubs ect. I just don't want the same issue to come up next time. Glad to hear she is back to her sweet self.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Honestly I'm not really worried about it because it was already odd behavior for her. Her and my son are buddies and before this incident, she never had a problem with him jumping into bed with us and snuggling up with her. My only question originally when posting this was if it was common for bitches to act unusually grumpy when in season. She is the first dog I have had who is not spayed so I don't have any personal experience except with her. 

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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

My bitch's moods change with her hormone levels as well.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Desiree said:


> My bitch's moods change with her hormone levels as well.


And my b!tchy moods change with my hormone levels, too! Wait, was that not what you said? :aetsch:


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

PammiPoodle said:


> The Sophia Yin video by* Cookieface *should explain it well: )


Is there a link to the video you mean. I got confused by my google search....


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

kontiki said:


> Is there a link to the video you mean. I got confused by my google search....


Here you go. It was on an earlier post.
Training Aggression | Videos | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

PC word issues aside, some dogs ARE bossier than others. We're not supposed to call them dominant anymore, but some dogs like my Indy are natural leaders and the rest of the dogs in the family defer to them. In this case, it's good, because Indy is a great dog (calm, reliable, good instincts etc.). If you have a dog that likes to lead (like Aria sounds to me), you do have to make sure that you manage situations for success that might otherwise not turn out so well. As you are doing, with your son and your son's friends. Personally, I wouldn't leave them alone together until you have really firmly reinforced that your son and his friends are not less important than Aria, I'm talking about maybe for a couple of years. Indy's not spayed either and she gets a little testy before she comes into heat, but she's just an awesome dog. I think you're doing the right thing, establishing boundaries and letting Aria know that you respect her but most of all, she has to respect YOU.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Wow - that Sophia Yin video on aggression totally surprised me - in a good way. I hadn't heard of her before.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i admire sophia yin and have quoted and recommended her myself on occasion. i still would like to have seen that same video with a pit bull instead of a jack russell. i'm not knocking the theory and methodology. but my gut says i would hate to see someone inexperienced try this with a large aggressive dog.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

*Patk*, Sophia Yin's video was meant to prove that aggression isn't reinforced by a reward, not to show proper counter-conditioning technique. She only pushed the Jack Russel to respond that way to make her point for the video. You're right, it's not safe! There's probably a reason she chose a LITTLE guy to be her demo-dog! : P I admire her sticking her neck out (literally!) to educate those who would avoid reward-based training on the basis of not wanting to "reinforce" aggression or fear. Personally, I would have been frightened for her if she chose a large aggressive dog! :ahhhhh: I hope the video didn't put you off of reward-based training (even for "large aggressive dogs") because of how close the dog was to lashing out. When done correctly, the dog would be well below threshold and not a threat to the trainer or bystanders. :angel:


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

pammi poodle, my objection to this video is that it does not warn people that expertise and great timing as well as "positive" methods are all necessary ingredients of success. i agree that dr. yin might have been more at risk with a large dog. and that's the point - even an expert using positive methods faces risks with an aggressive dog. some folks are going to assume they can handle large aggressive dogs as easily as a jack russell terrier, when, in fact, they couldn't even handle the jrt. what folks need to be told is that in cases of severe aggression (and this is relatively severe, but it is minimized because the dog is small), treatment is possible, but it should be under the supervision of an expert. i actually don't see much difference in impact between this video and the tv episodes involving cesar millan that people object to so much. yes, i know the methodology is different. but the assumption people take away - that despite being amateurs they can do this - is similar. at least the millan episodes come with a warning about not trying it at home. other than that, kudos to dr. yin and her colleagues for keeping a dog from being euthanized.

p.s. no mention is made of the other dogs in the video and the effect of their presence, which i suspect is not inconsiderable. that's another element of treatment that often is not available to the lay person and one more reason to use an expert. imo, of course.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Whether it be an online video or a TV episode I think one of the problems of having so many methods demonstrations available to the public (whether positive or negative) is that people watch and say to themselves, "oh that's how you do it, got it. That's what I will do then!" and then off they go poorly armed to deal with problem behaviors. Subtle body language cues from the dog, inadvertent cues given by the handler, poor timing of reinforcements all spell potentially bad outcomes.

To get back to the OP though, the important thing is that Hunny518 has recognized an issue with Aria that she needs to manage, has sought advise, isn't a naive owner/handler and is doing the things she needs to do to ensure good outcomes.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

*Lily cd re*, my mom often says "A little information is dangerous." So true! :nod:


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

PammiPoodle said:


> *Lily cd re*, my mom often says "A little information is dangerous." So true! :nod:


Your mom is a wise woman, as are you. 

I just had a phone call from a potential training client who thankfully doesn't have aggression issues, but it sounds like their dog is really pretty loose in the orderly behavior department. The gut sounded pretty frazzled in the message he left. At least they have figured out that they need help getting things settled and in order. How many folks just watch a few episodes of a TV trainer or a few online videos and then louse things up worse than they already were because they really didn't understand what the video was showing.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

PammiPoodle said:


> *Lily cd re*, my mom often says "A little information is dangerous." So true! :nod:


I thought that I'd addressed both *Lily* and *Patk*! I think we're all on the same page. Incidentally, I'd been drinking "a little wine"...also dangerous! : P :aetsch:


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

PammiPoodle said:


> I thought that I'd addressed both *Lily* and *Patk*! I think we're all on the same page. Incidentally, I'd been drinking "a little wine"...also dangerous! : P :aetsch:


i'll drink to that! :drink:


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

Missy resource guards ME from Ash. If missy is in my lap, and ash tries to jump up, she will have none of it. She growls, barks, and snaps at Ash. It's not tolerated, and lap time is over at that point. She also did this to my sisters dog when we were dog sitting him. 

I think with aria, her hormones are raging from the heat.

If I remember correctly, I think Tia was crass with Billy for a bit during her heat (if I remember the posts on PF correctly. )


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