# SA and GDC SA



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I recently noticed that on OFA site there are now 2 separate columns for Sebaceous Adenitis and also "GDC" Sebaceous Adenitis :confused3:

Anybody know a difference (if there is any lol) :act-up: ???

Thanks in advance :glasses-cool:


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Just found it myself LMAO

OK - for anybody who may be interested :

Breeding advice

Although the genetics have not been determined, the condition does appear to be inherited in those breeds studied. It is thus preferable to avoid breeding affected dogs of any breed, their siblings, and their parents.

The Institute for Genetic Disease Control in Animals (GDC) operates an open registry for sebaceous adenitis in the standard poodle. All dogs that have been used or are intended to be used for breeding purposes, or any dog with a diagnosis of sebaceous adenitis, should be registered through an annual skin biopsy. Bear in mind that subclinically affected poodles (meaning that they have no clinical signs, even though a skin biopsy shows that they have a mild form of the disorder) may produce clinically affected puppies.

"*The GDC* (UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine - Contact Information) provides registration forms, instructions for veterinarians regarding biopsies, and a list of participating pathologists. Registration requires evaluation of two 6-mm skin biopsies by a participating dermatopathologist, who will send the results to the submitting veterinarian and GDC for their computer files.

In sub-clinically affected dogs (those with a normal haircoat), histologic lesions consistent with sebaceous adenitis may not be evident in a particular biopsy sample. Thus a pathologist's report of "normal" does not guarantee that the dog is unaffected, but rather that the skin biopsies examined showed no evidence of the disorder. By having the poodle biopsied and registered annually however, the owner has done all that s/he can to ensure the animal is suitable for breeding, and has contributed information to the registry to decrease the incidence of this disease in the standard poodle. "

*So, all breeding animals should be actually tested ANNUALLY - yet to see that done though* :becky:


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## jonny cash (May 11, 2010)

good info. thanks.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

You are very welcome :act-up:


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Well, I think you have hit upon an interesting topic. Many breeders test dogs, but how many continue to test their dogs into their golden years. I've always wondered how many breeding dogs would flunk their CERFs if they were tested at age 10.

The SA punch is important. It picks up Equivocals and Subclinicals that the naked eye can't detect. Most breeders I know do it every 2 years during the breeding years. I understand the recommendation to do it every year for life, but, WOW, that would not only be expensive, it would be HIGHLY invasive. Each time they do the test, they punch 4 holes in the dog's neck. It hurts.

Perhaps a compromise could be reached with a recommendation of re-punching dogs that have been bred when they are 8 and 12. That would at least give researchers some data.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Perhaps a compromise could be reached with a recommendation of re-punching dogs that have been bred when they are 8 and 12. That would at least give researchers some data.


I think that sounds better in my opinion then testing for it yearly...unless of course the breeder is made of money

I think (for me alone) knowing what is behind a dog is a bit more important than if the breeder is testing for SA every year
if I look on PHR or call up 5 breeders in the pedigree and see that there have been multiple cases of SA I probably wouldn't want a puppy from that line anyways but in that case I could understand the yearly SA test


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Yes, *Cbrand *: ) - I also wonder about CERF , and especially since I discovered other eye problems that can effect poodles. I saw as well some cases of cataract punctata in spoos that were not re-testad later and dog was bred anyway. Yes, cataract of that character in one eye can be of genetic origin or not, but it should warrant further examinations of that dog as well as of the siblings IMO, used for breeding or not. Correct patterns of inheritance can not be established without sufficient data in any line.

That brings us to second problem - PHR. Many pet owners do not even know that it exists, and second , I know of breeders who raised hell when owner wanted to report illness. Although the idea behind PHR is noble and good, unless it becomes mandatory, it will not be correct source of information.

Regarding SA, though, I think that breeding animals should be tested at least every year that they are bred. In dogs that ever had equivocal result, testing should be done EVERY year IMO.Single puppy sale covers cost of all tests many times over. I also think that your idea of re-testing dog one more time at older age is very good compromise.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Regarding SA, though, I think that breeding animals should be tested at least every year that they are bred. In dogs that ever had equivocal result, testing should be done EVERY year IMO.Single puppy sale covers cost of all tests many times over. I also think that your idea of re-testing dog one more time at older age is very good compromise.


Yes well ideas are simply that :]
it would be lovely if all breeders followed the protocol that some wish they would but it doesn't happen even among the most well respected of breeders

When one is able to put what they're saying to practice and prove that this is the BEST way to do it then I'll bite, until then I feel a yearly test for SA is just a painful unnecessary thing


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Yes, *Cbrand *: ) - I also wonder about CERF , and especially since I discovered other eye problems that can effect poodles. I saw as well some cases of cataract punctata in spoos that were not re-testad later and dog was bred anyway. Yes, cataract of that character in one eye can be of genetic origin or not, but it should warrant further examinations of that dog as well as of the siblings IMO, used for breeding or not. Correct patterns of inheritance can not be established without sufficient data in any line.
> 
> That brings us to second problem - PHR. Many pet owners do not even know that it exists, and second , I know of breeders who raised hell when owner wanted to report illness. Although the idea behind PHR is noble and good, unless it becomes mandatory, it will not be correct source of information.
> 
> Regarding SA, though, I think that breeding animals should be tested at least every year that they are bred. In dogs that ever had equivocal result, testing should be done EVERY year IMO.Single puppy sale covers cost of all tests many times over. I also think that your idea of re-testing dog one more time at older age is very good compromise.


A single puppy sale does not cover the cost of all tests many times over. The average pet puppy sells for $1,500 and the cost to test Jenny and post her results on OFA was $1,000.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

wishpoo said:


> I also wonder about CERF , and especially since I discovered other eye problems that can effect poodles. I saw as well some cases of cataract punctata in spoos that were not re-testad later and dog was bred anyway. Yes, cataract of that character in one eye can be of genetic origin or not, but it should warrant further examinations of that dog as well as of the siblings IMO, used for breeding or not. Correct patterns of inheritance can not be established without sufficient data in any line.


I asked the vet who did the CERF on my dogs how long I should test them and she said every year when they are begin used but after that I should not worry. I did not agree with her but that is what the vets are telling people.

she also said that most spoos where diagnosed with cataract around two so if they are free when they are 4 everything should be fine.

Here in Iceland if a dog is diagnosed with Cataract he is put in breeding ban until its determined if its inherited or not. If it is something he can produce on to his pups he is put in a breeding ban for life and all his puppies too.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

*Winnow* - I really like that approach for cataracts !!!! :act-up: Your country obviously understood that without strict guidelines breeders can interpret findings the way they please or even pretend that findings do not mean anything. 

Good for all involved - breeders, dogs and future owners :first:

Thanks for sharing that since it shows that it can be done and also be well regulated :top:


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> Yes well ideas are simply that :]


 etc.

Please note that all complaints about suggested protocol should be addressed to UC Davis


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> A single puppy sale does not cover the cost of all tests many times over. The average pet puppy sells for $1,500 and the cost to test Jenny and post her results on OFA was $1,000.


8-10 puppies ( fill free to add more puppies or subtract) X 1500 = $12000-$15000

I am not understanding how the puppies prices are not covering ? 
If you do the cert yearly and only breed bitch 3-4 ( once each year) times that is $140-$200 

SA I never seen breeders test this every year because it is expensive.

vWD =$140 ( I found a place that does it for 60 )
NE =$55
Thyroid = $30-50 
Cert = $30-50
Hips =$ 100 
SA= $200 ?
( give or take on prices since its there will be a variation )
So far the test I will be doing on Enzo don't come to 1k


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

wishpoo said:


> I recently noticed that on OFA site there are now 2 separate columns for Sebaceous Adenitis and also "GDC" Sebaceous Adenitis :confused3:
> 
> Anybody know a difference (if there is any lol) :act-up: ???
> 
> Thanks in advance :glasses-cool:


The GDC made an official announcement in 2003 that they had transferred all of their data for all registeries except eye and tumor to the OFA in December of 2002. SA results were part of that transferred data


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

roxy25 said:


> 8-10 puppies ( fill free to add more puppies or subtract) X 1500 = $12000-$15000
> 
> I am not understanding how the puppies prices are not covering ?
> If you do the cert yearly and only breed bitch 3-4 ( once each year) times that is $140-$200
> ...


I have never sold pet puppies for more than $900 each.

The nearest place for me to have a PennHIP xray done the cost is more tha $300, the next nearest it is in excess of $500. DM? Cardiac Echo? I can't get a thyroid panel done for anywhere near that cost. Transportation to and from (not all of us live where testing facilities are in our backyards). What happens if you have a dog who doesn't pass it's health testing... how do you incorporate those costs? Many breeders of standard poodles have had to remove a poodle they have had high hopes for from their breeding programs. 

Then there is the cost of having pups. On paper, it sounds magnificent. I'm going to do my testing, I'm going to breed so and so to so and so (oops.. did I forget that stud fee in there? Did I also forget to add in prebreeding tests.. such as a brucellosis?) There are so many little tiny costs and wow, do they add up fast! Do you take those pups to a vet? how many times? What does that vet charge? What do you feed your pups? Is there a cost there? Do you worm your pups? Do you provide any vaccinations? What about docking and dewclawing? Do you do it/not do it/does the vet do it? At what charge? Do you have temperament evaluations done? Do you microchip? Heaven forbid... do you advertise? Do you feed your bitch anything special while pregnant? Do you take time off from work to be with your puppies? Do you have to wash puppy bedding? Do you have collars for your puppies.. what about toys? Do you crate train? Where do those crates come from? Can't be with your pups every second.. do you have a baby monitor? What happens if you only breed your girl once? Just because someone has pups for sale for $1500 doesn't mean that they are going to do repeat breedings. Health guarantee? Need to refund some money? (health testing on parents does not give any assurances at all that pups won't have epilepsy, addison's, AIHA, HD, SA....) Pup despite your best intentions ended up in a bad situation and you need to repossess it.. but it's five states away?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I think its fantastic that you're going to be testing Enzo, but in my area at least you need to add a good 50-100 extra dollars to each of those estimates to have the tests done

due to a contract that I was considering I had to pay for all the health testing on the dog and I wanted to know what I should be anticipating as the final outcome on par with what the breeder wanted it was about $1200 in total

________


but since we mentioned it 

Why does it matter what a breeder brings in with the money from their puppies? I was raised in a home with a certain amount of manners...and my mother would lash me if she ever found out that I asked someone about money, whether how much they made, or what they spend their money on...its just something that one who has been taught just wouldn't do


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> I have never sold pet puppies for more than $900 each.
> 
> The nearest place for me to have a PennHIP xray done the cost is more tha $300, the next nearest it is in excess of $500. DM? Cardiac Echo? I can't get a thyroid panel done for anywhere near that cost. Transportation to and from (not all of us live where testing facilities are in our backyards). What happens if you have a dog who doesn't pass it's health testing... how do you incorporate those costs? Many breeders of standard poodles have had to remove a poodle they have had high hopes for from their breeding programs.
> 
> Then there is the cost of having pups. On paper, it sounds magnificent. I'm going to do my testing, I'm going to breed so and so to so and so (oops.. did I forget that stud fee in there? Did I also forget to add in prebreeding tests.. such as a brucellosis?) There are so many little tiny costs and wow, do they add up fast! Do you take those pups to a vet? how many times? What does that vet charge? What do you feed your pups? Is there a cost there? Do you worm your pups? Do you provide any vaccinations? What about docking and dewclawing? Do you do it/not do it/does the vet do it? At what charge? Do you have temperament evaluations done? Do you microchip? Heaven forbid... do you advertise? Do you feed your bitch anything special while pregnant? Do you take time off from work to be with your puppies? Do you have to wash puppy bedding? Do you have collars for your puppies.. what about toys? Do you crate train? Where do those crates come from? Can't be with your pups every second.. do you have a baby monitor? What happens if you only breed your girl once? Just because someone has pups for sale for $1500 doesn't mean that they are going to do repeat breedings. Health guarantee? Need to refund some money? (health testing on parents does not give any assurances at all that pups won't have epilepsy, addison's, AIHA, HD, SA....) Pup despite your best intentions ended up in a bad situation and you need to repossess it.. but it's five states away?


Yessir, it is amazing how it adds up isn't it? I bought a van strictly for this business- $5,000, maintenance on said van every year- $1,000, gas for running back and forth to the vet, to the airport, a hour and 20 minutes to the place that sells my dog food, to dog shows, insurance on said van...around $2,000 a year. We also did a home renovation that cost $38,000 that was done to turn the front of our house to the back of the house to make it more dog friendly and practical for rearing puppies here. This was the cost when my fiance is a renovator- double if I had paid labour. 

In the event you choose to breed to a dog from another country- Surgical implantation of frozen semen from dog from Europe- at least $1,500 stud fee plus at least that again for the progesterone timing and surgery= $3,000 plus the cost of the extender and the shipping is another $400.= $3,400.

All of this the past year as well as the purchase, shipping, duty and taxes and Canadian registration of Quincy to add to my breeding program= $2,600, plus his grooming fees, show fees, handler fees to date = $800. Grand total $3,400.

Preparation costs for Jenny/Flynn litter:

Jenny's testing:

OFA hips- $266.87
posting on OFA plus postage $ 43.76
Thyroid $135.00
posting and postage $ 43.76
S/A $187.26 
Posting and postage $ 43.76
CERF $ 56.50
Posting and postage $ 17.28
Cardiac $ 50.00
Posting and postage $ 17.28
Patellas $ 50.00
Posting and postage $ 17.28
DM $ 68.82
Posting and postage $ 36.52
TOTAL $1034.32 

Flynn's testing:

OFA pre limb on hips $282.50
Postage $ 11.36
OFA final on hips $282.50
Posting and postage $ 43.76
CERF $ 56.50
Posting and postage $ 17.28
vWd and NE $158.20
Posting and postage 17.28
DM $ 68.32
Posting and postage $ 17.28
TOTAL $955.18

Holly's testing to verify Jenny and Betty-Jo are clear by parentage of vWd and NE
$158.20
Posting and postage $ 17.28
TOTAL $175.48


Artificial insemination

2 collections and inseminations:

$404.12

GRAND TOTAL $2,569.18

And guess what??? It does not appear we have a pregnancy. All of this expense and the stud dog is my own dog! Such is the life of a breeder...

Oh, and the cost of my new web site through Godaddy...$617.38 

Dogs Annual classified listing...$247. 42

Next year we will be breeding to a male in Illinois. We will have a $1,500 stud fee, 3 nights in a motel, gas, meals, so are looking at another $2,200 plus all of Betty-Jo's health testing, which will be a total repeat of Jenny's, so another $1,034.32.

It always amazes me how people who do not breed or have yet to breed seem to think it is all cut and dried and on paper have it all down to a science. It will be interesting to see how attitudes change when it is their tur

oops...made a mistake on Flynn's DM testing. Add another $19.24 on the cost of postage and posting.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Are these Canadian or US dollars? Your postage/posting numbers seem high to me. 



ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> OFA hips- $266.87
> posting on OFA plus postage $ 43.76 (posting fee $35 US)
> Thyroid $135.00
> posting and postage $ 43.76 (posting fee is only $15 US)
> ...


For anyone who is lurking on this thread, please don't be scared away from testing. Some tests can be shopped around. Different vets do charge different rates. Example: my vet charges $50 for a thyroid. You can also reduce some of your costs by asking the vet to not charge you an "office visit" fee. Some tests can be run at low cost clinics offered at dog shows. Example: CERF fee of only $30. Finally, some tests, once run, will never need to be run again in future generations if you only breed to tested clear dogs. These include: DM, NE, VWD.

Yes, testing can be costly. However, what are our goals as breeders? Hopefully we looking to improve future generations of the breed we love so much?


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

cbrand said:


> For anyone who is lurking on this thread, please don't be scared away from testing. Some tests can be run at low cost clinics offered at dog shows. Example: CERF fee of only $30.


OFA lists upcoming health clinics, but this is another great site for finding health clinics:

Dog/Canine Health Test Clinics Schedule


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> until then I feel a yearly test for SA is just a painful unnecessary thing


Yes, but for a breeding dog who tested Equivocal, a yearly SA test would be important to monitor any change or progress. I do know someone who had a breeding dog who tested Equivocal. She held off on breeding him for 3 years until he had two "normal" SA tests. 

As far as eyes go, there are juvenile cataracts and later onset cataracts. CERF testing later in life would catch the latter. I don't think anyone wants a blind 10 yr old dog any more than they want a blind 5 yr old.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Yes, but for a breeding dog who tested Equivocal, a yearly SA test would be important to monitor any change or progress. I do know someone who had a breeding dog who tested Equivocal. She held off on breeding him for 3 years until he had two "normal" SA tests.


I think every dog should be looked at individually

if a dog pops up Equivocal or even sub-clinical then yes it should be tested yearly, 
but I just feel that a yearly test doesn't seem necessary in a normal case


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Are these Canadian or US dollars? Your postage/posting numbers seem high to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We did do a lot a shopping around for pricing. Its also important to remember that this is the cost for testing and posting and postage in Canada in Canadian dollars. Frankly we thought we did very well and got a pretty good deal on it. We were quoted in some places at over $700 for pennhip and over $500 for ofa. 

Of course you guys in other countries might be lucky and not have to pay quite as much or possibly more I guess it just depends on where you are.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Are these Canadian or US dollars? Your postage/posting numbers seem high to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Prices are in Canadian dollars and include everything outside of the actual testing.

I am not complaining in the least. I am thrilled with the prices we got. Some of the prices were were quoted on hips were more than double what we paid, and in some cases triple!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> I think every dog should be looked at individually
> 
> if a dog pops up Equivocal or even sub-clinical then yes it should be tested yearly,
> but I just feel that a yearly test doesn't seem necessary in a normal case


SA is quite insidious and sneaky! One of the big issues with it is that a dog can be AFFECTED (not just subclinical, not just equivocal) and can appear healthy to the naked eye. 

Where the SA biopsy is actually taken is critical. It is possible to do a biopsy with a normal result on one location on a dogs body and have a different biopsy in a different location come back affected. 

Normal SA biopsy results can lull people into having a false sense of security when it comes to SA.

Pain with SA biopsies? Done by an experienced vet and without anesthetic, my poodles sometimes flinch, but with tail wagging and usually while trying to lick the vet's face. 
For some reason, this procedure conjures up images of blood gushing, dogs yelping and writhing, discomfort over a few weeks.... we humans tend to see things in a pretty dramatic way, whereas, I've noticed my poodles simply have no self pity and accepts whatever the day gives out to them. Of course, they'd much rather it be raw tripe than an SA biopsy... but as long as they are loved, they don't seem to care.

A couple of years ago, I went to a different vet. This vet 1) hadn't heard of SA, 2) didn't recommend doing the biopsies 3) agreed to do the biopsies but only if she could sedate (!) the dogs so that they wouldn't feel anything I make a couple of associations here that will probably get me into trouble... but... for years I've heard breeders who dock and dewclaw complain about not wanting to do SA biopsies because of the pain of the biopsy.

I've also heard breeders concerned about "but the hair will grow back in a different color and I think that's ugly"! Ugly is having bred a poodle without an SA biopsy, then finding that they are positive for SA... and what to do with those offspring?

I would encourage anyone who's breeding to learn everything they can about SA as well as other conditions which affect our poodles. Be grateful for "Normal" SA biopsy results but don't let those results give you a false sense of security.

Also, re: SA results on PHR.... most of the time those come from the OFA database, which is an open database. But owners have the option of not submitting their results or making their results public with OFA. What you see on PHR is the tip of the iceberg.

There is still an incredible amount of ingnorance about SA. I was told a few months ago by an a breeder who's been at it for a lot of years, lots of titles on her dogs... that "Ivermectin cures SA" and that there was absolutely no reason for any poodle to ever be symptomatic with SA as all the owners had to do was treat with Ivermectin. I only wish it was that simple!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Keithsomething said:


> I was raised in a home with a certain amount of manners...and my mother would lash me if she ever found out that I asked someone about money, whether how much they made, or what they spend their money on...its just something that one who has been taught just wouldn't do


I find this hard to believe .... Telling people they have mental issues on a forum does not equal manners. My mother brought me up to tell the truth and to fight what you believe in with no excuses. 

It matters when people blow things out of proportion and claim a puppy or two does not cover some health test ( when most only needs to be down once) and is not doing anything with their dogs but breeding them.... 

I know many breeders who show , do OB, or agility and spent more time and money on the dogs career and they never mention how puppy cost would not cover the health fees ....


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Yes, testing can be costly. However, what are our goals as breeders? Hopefully we looking to improve future generations of the breed we love so much?



I agree please don't be scared of the prices , if you are truly breeding for the love of the breed, and want to improve on a breed, its all worth it.

Showing and training IMO cost way more than health testing and I do it for fun not for profit.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_It is expensive to have all the testing done for a breeding dog/bitch. We see it as something that comes with the package. If you are going to breed, test your dogs and be prepared to pay what it cost. We have also shopped around and have found test to have a wide range in expense depending on the veterinarian. We picked one who does testing the way we like it done (without anesthesia whenever possible) and who's prices are mid-line. 

The sale of a couple of puppies should be adequate to cover the expense and then some. And as was previously mentioned, some of the tests are once in a lifetime. 

Our CERFS for our dogs were $10 apiece at a clinic at the recent show we attended. You just have to keep your eyes and ears open to find deals like this that will bring down the overall cost of testing your breeding dogs.

We haven't finished testing on all of our dogs as it is expensive when you are starting out and have several. We just won't breed until we have it done and know that our dogs are clear for breeding.

As for all of the other expenses mentioned by others, they are very real and also part of the package. They are factored in when pricing your puppies and that is why most are in the $1200 range. It is very expensive to do all of the things to prove your dogs. 

If you are going to breed, do all of your homework and be prepared for the cost in time, energy, financial and other things that I probably didn't think of right now because there is so much to think about. If you have done all of that, then don't let the cost of testing your dogs put you off. You really don't want to go that route.

I have read with much interest the debates on SA. I have been on one side and the other and really haven't known where to stand on it. I don't think I would wan't to put my dogs through testing every year, but I certainly can see the value of the argument to have it done before each breeding.

What we have gotten for testing costs:
hips $125; cerf $26; vwd $140; dna parentage $65; news $65; thyroid $210; sa $250; cardiac ?? We expect it will be about $1000 in the end. We looked into Pen hip but it is $550 per dog._


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I find this hard to believe .... Telling people they have mental issues on a forum does not equal manners. My mother brought me up to tell the truth and to fight what you believe in with no excuses.
> 
> It matters when people blow things out of proportion and claim a puppy or two does not cover some health test ( when most only needs to be down once) and is not doing anything with their dogs but breeding them....
> 
> I know many breeders who show , do OB, or agility and spent more time and money on the dogs career and they never mention how puppy cost would not cover the health fees ....


The person you are currently dissing did not say a puppy or two would not cover the cost of testing. If you read WHAT I said, I was responding to Wishpoo saying the price of ONE puppy would cover the cost of testing MANY TIMES OVER. NO... it would not. If you are trying your schoolyard bully antics with me Roxy, take it to PM's please. This is not what this forum is supposed to be about, and I am tired of you and your cronies making others uncomfortable on here because you do not like me.


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

BACK TO TOPIC EVERYONE. This is about S.A.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_OPPS! My bad! I seem to have contradicted myself in my previous post. I said the CERFs were $10 each in the beginig and then quoted the correct amount of $26 each at the bottom. The $10 was the cost of entering each dog for the CGC test._


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

*This is another link to the newest research done at UC Davis (2010)
*
davis SA dogs - Google Search

BTW, I found on the net info that some vets are cooperating with UC Davis by providing *free *office visit and biopsy for costumers that can not pay or just do not feel like paying.

It seems that UC Davis is doing all it can to promote this testing and to help getting to the bottom of this painful condition. 

SA is believed to have autosomal recessive inheritance and it is very hard to eradicate without actual TESTING. Now, hopefully, genetic markers will be discovered and genetic test developed so all dogs could be easily screened with simple swabbing and with very high % of correct results.

In the meantime, dogs welfare will be in the hands of educated and caring breeders. Dogs with pre-clinical SA do NOT HAVE ANY VISUAL CHANGES ON THE SKIN OR THE FUR/HAIR . 

*Yaddaluvpoodles *- thanks for the input !!!! Very much appreciated. 

Thanks to all who shared their expenses. I think that any upfront expense is worth every penny and will be returned in MANY ways back with having healthy lines and healthy dogs for many generations to come.

*Roxy, Cbrand and Spoospirit *- thanks for posting prices and comments : ). It showed that testing prices can wary and that one should "shop around" if location allows it and that they are over all still very affordable in the "grand scheme" :act-up:


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

I know UC Davis says simple recessive, but the most recent study is leaning more towards polygenic mode of inheritance. Bottom line.. we're still in the dark on mode of inheritance.

UC Davis is teaming up with vets/scientists in the UK to share info on this latest study but..... THEY NEED SAMPLES FROM SA AFFECTED POODLES DESPERATELY! They do not have enough to complete their research, this study has been active for sometime now and is going no where. I think I've posted requests for help here... as well as on several other forums.

Not only do dogs with pre-clinical SA not have any obvious visual changes, but it is possible to have a poodle with fullblown SA and not realize it. The only way to diagnose SA is by biopsy. Also, something many people don't realize is that SA tends to go through exacerbations and remissions. It is possible for SA affected dogs to lose hair, then to grow full coat again.

***** Many people who have SA affected dogs have made the observation that the dogs have atypical ceruman (earwax). It is often very hard, very dark in color, if not black. At least one of the dogs has been taken to the vet for removal of a foreign object (stick...rock????) from the ear canal only to find it was ear wax! The people who have observed this are reporting that this symptom can precede diagnosis by biopsy... sometimes by years. In the initial SA study done by Dr Dunstan, he made an observation that SA oftened presented first in the area of the ears.

SA is considered by most as a "cosmetic disease". Anyone who has dealt with SA will tell you it is usually a fatal disease.... the bulk of owners choose to euthanize rather than deal with the expense, time, smell, oils on furniture, and treatment to the dog. So,thinking of it as a death sentence puts a bit different spin on things. Also, there are many breeders who will euth a dog immediately with SA so that no one else finds out....


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks for the input :act-up: !!! If it proves to be poligenic, than it is even worse : ((.

Good that you mentioned a fact that study still needs samples !!! This is extra info about that. I hope that many PF members will contribute :angel: : 

*Participation Needed*
Review request from researchers on samples needed to conduct specific research.

Research Area: Sebaceous adenitis
Breed: Standard Poodles
Date Request Posted: July 27, 2010

Autoimmune disorders, affecting a wide range of organs and tissues, are becoming increasingly common in pure breeds of dogs. This increase appears to coincide with inbreeding and decreased genetic diversity. Sebaceous adenitis (SA) is an autoimmune disease that is seen mainly in the Standard Poodle, Akita, and English Springer spaniel. The incidence of the disease in Standard Poodles appears to be low at this time but is increasing in frequency with time. The disease is a generalized skin disorder associated with an attack by the dog’s own immune system against the sebaceous glands. The first skin lesions occur mainly on the midline of the back and on the ears. The disease varies greatly in severity among affected Poodles. It can wax and wane in severity, with bouts of sebaceous gland destruction and regeneration. It is not always progressive and in mild cases can be treated conservatively, while severe cases may vigorous treatment. In the extreme, it may end in total destruction of the sebaceous glands and widespread baldness. This study will attempt to identify specific genetic associations between SA and specific regions or genes in either the whole genome or in a small region on chromosome 12 that contains genes regulating the immune response. This will be a collaborative study between investigators at the Animal Health Trust, Newmarket, UK (Dr. Mike Boursnell), and at UC Davis (Dr. Niels C. Pedersen).

DNA in the form of EDTA blood, or if not possible, buccal swabs, are being solicited from healthy Standard Poodles, but especially from dogs with biopsy confirmed SA. Details of the project and sample submission forms available at: UC Davis Center for Companion Animal Health. Similar information on the UK Standard poodle SA project can be found at: The Standard Poodle Club - Sebaceous Adenitis. Samples may be submitted to either institution.

Contact info: 
Dr. Niels C. Pedersen, UC Davis
Email: [email protected]
Phone: 530-752-7402

Dr. Mike Boursnell, Animal Health Trust 
Email: [email protected]
Phone: 01638 751 000 ext 1286


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