# DM showed up in sire's genetic testing. Problem?



## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Hello. So I was looking at the genetic test results for Phoebe Duck's sire and dam. The mother is all clear. The father had "1 variant" when tested for DM. I've read threads on here that if only one parent was positive, the puppy should be ok, but that thread was years old. Does anyone know what the current research shows? I know very little about this disease, other than the basic effects of it. Any info is appreciated!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

My understanding is that the gene is a recessive, so your girl should be ok if the dam is not a carrier. Plus there is only a 50% chance Phoebe Duck even inherited a single copy. You could order a gene screen for her, but I wouldn't worry about it. I think routine household accidents are probably a greater risk to spinal health. Life happens.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> My understanding is that the gene is a recessive, so your girl should be ok if the dam is not a carrier. Plus there is only a 50% chance Phoebe Duck even inherited a single copy. You could order a gene screen for her, but I wouldn't worry about it. I think routine household accidents are probably a greater risk to spinal health. Life happens.


Hearing the phrase "recessive" and so on is reassuring. If my brain just won't let go, then I'll get her tested, but not right now. Thanks for the info! I really appreciate it.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Even being +/+ doesn't mean that a dog _will _develop DM. This is a good article. Degenerative Myelopathy in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospital


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

TeamHellhound said:


> Even being +/+ doesn't mean that a dog _will _develop DM. This is a good article. Degenerative Myelopathy in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospital


Thank you for the article! I'll read it immediately. 
I wonder how this would affect her being bred if we ever decide to do that. Her breeder had her evaluated at 8 wks and said she had really nice conformation. She gave us full AKC and CKC rights in case we chose to go that route. Realistically, we probably won't, but I like having as much info at my disposal as possible before I make the final decision.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

If the sire was a carrier and the dam was clear, then there is a statistical 50/50 chance of her being either clear or a carrier. If the sire is a carrier and the dam is affected, then there is a statistical 50?50 chance of her being either affected or a carrier. If both the sire and dam are carriers, then the statistical breakdown is 25% affected, 50% carrier, and 25% clear. "Affected" in this case meaning that she has two copies of the genetic marker, not that she will have DM. 

Oce she is titled and fully health tested, you need to take the big picture into account, and weigh X test result against Y test result against Z test result, and deciding which one(s) could you live with, and which one(s) do you want to try breeding away from. Part of that decision making is knowing what health issues dogs in her pedigree have developed. So, as far as the DM goes, if none or very few dogs develop it, then maybe breeding her is a good idea. On the other hand, if several dogs behind her have developed it, especially if they are close up, then not breeding her is probably the better decision.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

TeamHellhound said:


> Part of that decision making is knowing what health issues dogs in her pedigree have developed. So, as far as the DM goes, if none or very few dogs develop it, then maybe breeding her is a good idea. On the other hand, if several dogs behind her have developed it, especially if they are close up, then not breeding her is probably the better decision.


So, is there somewhere online where I would check that? Or is that info that only the breeder could give me? 
_If_ I chose not to breed her (because of health or other factors), is there any point to doing any of the competitions and such? Or would you suggest that I just enjoy my dog and forgo the competitions? The "local" poodle clubs are all 4hrs from me, the closest competition for BPup is 1-2 hrs away. Just as a side note


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

A lot of people put test results on the OFA website. However, it won't say whether a dog have developed something like DM. However, that is something that should be shared with people who have puppies from that dog, so it's something the breeder should know, or be able to ask the breeders of the dogs behind their dogs. 

Competing for fun and bragging rights is always an option. Even if you don't do in-person competitions, that are a tone of things you can do virtually, via video, that are fun and help build your relationship with your dog. Things like tricks and parkour have pretty much always been done virtually, and even obedience, rally, and nosework have online options these days.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

My friend has a dog (German Shepherd) with only one gene for DM. Based on that result and clinical symptoms, he had been diagnosed with DM. Based on what she has found, it can happen with only one gene, but they don't know how common that is.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

I_love_dogs said:


> My friend has a dog (German Shepherd) with only one gene for DM. Based on that result and clinical symptoms, he had been diagnosed with DM. Based on what she has found, it can happen with only one gene, but they don't know how common that is.


I know her sire has the "1 result" but I haven't tested her to see if it was passed on. I plan to do that at some point. I need to know if she's clear or not.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

I_love_dogs said:


> My friend has a dog (German Shepherd) with only one gene for DM. Based on that result and clinical symptoms, he had been diagnosed with DM. Based on what she has found, it can happen with only one gene, but they don't know how common that is.


Dogs who test clear for the marker can develop it as well, so it's quite possibly polygenic. That's why you need to weigh that one result against other factors.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

So as a final update, I will most definitely not be breeding her. I found out yesterday that the breeder we got her from has questionable ethics. Claims to have purebred Merle poodles (which I know isn't 100% accurate). And says Ducky's dam is 21" tall & 60 lbs. Her sire is supposed to be 23" & 70lbs. Says she has another poodle that is waist high and 80 lbs. That she breeds "Royal" poodles, all about the size of a Labrador. When I questioned her on all this(politely), she got very defensive and told me I could return Phoebe if I wasn't comfortable with this. Considering all I've learned here on PF, I don't think I can trust anything she says about Phoebe's family history. Which means I can't in good conscience breed her. Phoebe is currently 12weeks and 15+ high. Hoping she grows to a normal size without a higher risk of hip dysplasia or bloat/torsion. I will still be getting her genetically tested, for my own peace of mind, as well.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

The heights and weights of the parents seem a bit off. Either the measurements are wrong or else those dogs are unusually blocky for poodles.


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## PoodlesinMass (10 mo ago)

The DM marker isn't a great predictor of DM. DM is most common in Corgis, here an article on DM https://pembrokecorgi.org/about-pembrokes/canine-degenerative-myelopathy-and-genetic-testing-in-pwcs and if you read through it, the DM marker is maybe something but maybe nothing. It must be 2 copies. Plus other unknowns at this time. I added the bold. poodles are very low risk for DM so if you read through the article, being a DM carrier should put your mind at ease as the likelihood of getting DM is close to 0. A heterogenous DM corgi has a 0 chance of DM and _98.9% of Pembroke Welsh Corgis testing homozygous “at risk” will never develop the disease. _ And Corgis are the most common breed affected by DM. This is a non issue for a carrier in poodles and most like not an issue in poodles at all. 

_In 2008, researchers at the University of Missouri identified a recessive mutation in the sod1 gene that is homozygous* “at risk” (carrying two copies) in all pathologically confirmed DM *affected Pembroke Welsh Corgis (and clinically affected dogs of other breeds). Dogs that do not have two mutated copies of the sod1 gene will not develop DM. A genetic test for the sod1 mutation is available from several dog DNA testing laboratories including the University of Missouri (OFA testing). _ 
_As DM is a complexly inherited disease, clinically affected dogs must have a mutation in another (yet unidentified) gene or genes in addition to being homozygous for the sod1 mutation. Otherwise they will never develop clinical DM. 

The sod1 mutation is an ancient mutation in the dog genome and is the most frequent mutation identified in the genetic screening of mixed-breed and purebred dogs. Mars/Genoscoper testing finds that the sod1 mutation frequency is 7.77% in all mixed-breed dogs tested, and 5.41% in all purebred dogs tested. *In several breeds the frequency of the sod1 mutation is over 90%, but no members of the breed have ever been pathologically confirmed with clinical DM. *_


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> The heights and weights of the parents seem a bit off. Either the measurements are wrong or else those dogs are unusually blocky for poodles.


That was my thought. She's either not being completely honest about height weight, or there's something not completely right with the dogs. Either way, there's a question about her ethics. I'm trying not to let it make me twitchy.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

PoodlesinMass said:


> The DM marker isn't a great predictor of DM. DM is most common in Corgis, here an article on DM https://pembrokecorgi.org/about-pembrokes/canine-degenerative-myelopathy-and-genetic-testing-in-pwcs and if you read through it, the DM marker is maybe something but maybe nothing. It must be 2 copies. Plus other unknowns at this time. I added the bold. poodles are very low risk for DM so if you read through the article, being a DM carrier should put your mind at ease as the likelihood of getting DM is close to 0. A heterogenous DM corgi has a 0 chance of DM and _98.9% of Pembroke Welsh Corgis testing homozygous “at risk” will never develop the disease. _ And Corgis are the most common breed affected by DM. This is a non issue for a carrier in poodles and most like not an issue in poodles at all.
> 
> _In 2008, researchers at the University of Missouri identified a recessive mutation in the sod1 gene that is homozygous* “at risk” (carrying two copies) in all pathologically confirmed DM *affected Pembroke Welsh Corgis (and clinically affected dogs of other breeds). Dogs that do not have two mutated copies of the sod1 gene will not develop DM. A genetic test for the sod1 mutation is available from several dog DNA testing laboratories including the University of Missouri (OFA testing). _
> _As DM is a complexly inherited disease, clinically affected dogs must have a mutation in another (yet unidentified) gene or genes in addition to being homozygous for the sod1 mutation. Otherwise they will never develop clinical DM.
> ...


Thank you! I appreciate this info!


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

With respect and meant kindly, the fact she registers with CKC is another sign with a US breeder, when it refers to Continental Kennel Club. I know you also got AKC, a good thing.

The fact she uses CKC may be a way for her to offer for sale "registered" merle Poodle mixes as Poodles.

You have your sweet Phoebe Duck, and she is family and PF is enjoying her so much. Onward, and good job on wisely choosing not to breed her 🤗🥰.


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## Sroodle8 (Dec 23, 2021)

Enjoy young Phoebe Duck and don't look back. You have a great dog.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Streetcar said:


> With respect and meant kindly, the fact she registers with CKC is another sign with a US breeder, when it refers to Continental Kennel Club. I know you also got AKC, a good thing.
> 
> The fact she uses CKC may be a way for her to offer for sale "registered" merle Poodle mixes as Poodles.
> 
> You have your sweet Phoebe Duck, and she is family and PF is enjoying her so much. Onward, and good job on wisely choosing not to breed her 🤗🥰.


I always thought something was hinky when CKC was the only thing offered, but AKC was there too, so I shrugged it off.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

PhoebeDuck said:


> I always thought something was hinky when CKC was the only thing offered, but AKC was there too, so I shrugged it off.


You came away with your breeder's best Spoo ever, and onward and upward 🐩💐🌷🌼. Just keep moving on 😊.

I got Oliver from his first family after they listed him as a four-year-old on CL. For whatever reason(s), they couldn't keep him. I know who bred him, and that person does seem to stick with purebreds, but that's likely the best I can say. I've never said who that person is here or elsewhere online, and won't.

For all that, he's an amazing boy, and I adore him and daily thank the Almighty for gracing my life with Oliver. As you can and will do with precious Phoebe Duck, in your own way.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

On a tangent, breeder claimed that Phoebe was "color tested and wouldn't fade"... But I don't have any paperwork proving that and online has mixed info on that. Does anyone here know anything about it? Can you test? Or is that a marketing gimmick?


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## PoodlesinMass (10 mo ago)

I have not seen a color tests for fading that are commercially available for colors other than red/apricot/white//cream and there is still questions on the validity of those. So black to silver or blue or brown to a lighter brown I have not seen anything available. The dilute marker available does not work for standard poodles, my silver girls all have big D so wouldn't fade but are silvers, It is a gene for Weimaraner, Kerry blues, Bedlingtons.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

PoodlesinMass said:


> I have not seen a color tests for fading that are commercially available for colors other than red/apricot/white//cream and there is still questions on the validity of those. So black to silver or blue or brown to a lighter brown I have not seen anything available. The dilute marker available does not work for standard poodles, my silver girls all have big D so wouldn't fade but are silvers, It is a gene for Weimaraner, Kerry blues, Bedlingtons.


Breeder says I misunderstood. (Which is very possible) says Phoebe is tested to breed the color true, not that she won't or can't fade. That being said, she did send me copies of the tests and said that if Ducky were going to fade, she would show signs of it by now. All her other puppies started fading already, but Phoebe is still as inky black as when we got her. We are still planning on getting her fixed at 2yrs old, so this was just for my personal info.


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