# Red Standard breeder



## tenortime (Aug 25, 2010)

Does anyone know of a reputable breeder of red standards located within driving distance of the Twin Cities in Minnesota? Thanks


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Hi tenortime.

I just checked with Apricot Red Poodle Club - Red Apricot Poodle Club and they appear to have a breeder in MN. I don't know anything about the breeder, but they do show their poodles and say they are health tested. I would not take anyone's word on it though and ask for proof of health testing. I prefer that the test results are posted on the OFA site, but some breeders don't post and provide paperwork. So make sure you check.  Here's the link:
index


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

My only comment is that I would want to know more about their Red stud dog. It says he was showing for 6 years and he could not get finished in the US. Jeniffer Dege is a very, very well known handler. If she can't get the job done, I'm not sure anyone can.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I do not think she is breeding reds anymore. I have been in touch with her about using her male, and she had two. One is dead and the other has a spinal defect I think. I am almost certain this is what she told me. Too bad too. Beautiful boys!


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

*Arpc*

The ARPC Web site has a pup finder/puppy app.

Complete it and it will be distributed to members. There are a majority of members in the NE (this from a Southern girl  ) Be sure to note your specifics.

Have not seen anything other than pictures of Linda's boys. I know she has 2 apricots that have recently finished, as I posted her pictures of them in the ARPC RAP sheet.

Farley's has a litter - don't think there are any reds in it though. Retinew might be another idea or Magic Castle, again not sure about reds...

All of those guys show throughout the region (or travel to see their dogs show). 

Regarding a red campaigning for 6 years with no title... there are only 5 red AKC Champions in the United States. They RARELY have the conformation of the blacks or whites competing against them. Finishing a red is a *HUGE* accomplishment.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

nola standards said:


> the arpc web site has a pup finder/puppy app.
> 
> Complete it and it will be distributed to members. There are a majority of members in the ne (this from a southern girl  ) be sure to note your specifics.
> 
> ...



amen!!!!!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

NOLA Standards said:


> Regarding a red campaigning for 6 years with no title... there are only 5 red AKC Champions in the United States. They RARELY have the conformation of the blacks or whites competing against them. Finishing a red is a *HUGE* accomplishment.


Well no arguments there.  But as a puppy buyer, why would you want to go out and get a poor quality dog? Is color really that important?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Well no arguments there.  But as a puppy buyer, why would you want to go out and get a poor quality dog? Is color really that important?


Because a lot of pet people do not care about owning a conformationally perfect Poodle (which does not exist anyway). While dedicated, responsible breeders are doing everything they can to facilitate improvement in the reds, and are trying to breed HEALTHY pups with remarkable temperaments, and while changes are afoot in the qualiity of the Poodles of this colour, there are people who are delighted, like Plumcrazy, to own a pretty, decently structured dog whose health is great, whose temperament is divine, who is bright and now beginning an obedience career. There are lots of people, myself included, who no not feel a conformation title is the be all and end all.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Farely's does have a litter right now, but I'm pretty sure Terry told me that all the pups were spoken for


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Poodle Lover said:


> Hi tenortime.
> 
> I just checked with
> [url=http://www.cerisepoodles.com/index.html]index


This breeder spays/neuters before the puppy leaves. Although I understand the paranoia that drives that decision, I would not buy a puppy, especially a standard, from such a breeder. If she doesn't trust me enough to s/n in the future at an agreed-upon time, why is she selling me a puppy at all?


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Because a lot of pet people do not care about owning a conformationally perfect Poodle (which does not exist anyway). While dedicated, responsible breeders are doing everything they can to facilitate improvement in the reds, and are trying to breed HEALTHY pups with remarkable temperaments, and while changes are afoot in the qualiity of the Poodles of this colour, there are people who are delighted, like Plumcrazy, to own a pretty, decently structured dog whose health is great, whose temperament is divine, who is bright and now beginning an obedience career. There are lots of people, myself included, who no not feel a conformation title is the be all and end all.


AMEN to that! Finnegan just completed his Canine Good Neighbour and is training for Rally and Obedience now. We might give agility a try next year too. He is not a conformation dog, but he does have a perfect 1st position for a ballet dancer! LOL!

Aside from that he is loved by all who meet him and especially loved by me.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Because a lot of pet people do not care about owning a conformationally perfect Poodle (which does not exist anyway).


No dog, even a finished show dog, is perfect. However, if a dog was shown for 6 years, with a well known professional handler and could not finish, that should be a red flag to a buyer. I think it has to say something about the over-all structure of the dog. Color breeders like to point to color predjudice, but the truth is that a good dog in any color can finish its championship.




> While dedicated, responsible breeders are doing everything they can to facilitate improvement in the reds, and are trying to breed HEALTHY pups with remarkable temperaments


Sigh..... I'm sorry, but this just rings hollow to me. Almost every Red breeder I see is breeding young, unfinished, non performanced titled dogs. Where is the effort at improvement?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

cavon said:


> AMEN to that! Finnegan just completed his Canine Good Neighbour and is training for Rally and Obedience now. We might give agility a try next year too. He is not a conformation dog, but he does have a perfect 1st position for a ballet dancer! LOL!


So why can't a Poodle have it all? Why shouldn't a Poodle with good temperament and good health also have good structure, movement and breed type?

Why would a puppy buyer settle for anything less?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> No dog, even a finished show dog, is perfect. However, if a dog was shown for 6 years, with a well known professional handler and could not finish, that should be a red flag to a buyer. I think it has to say something about the over-all structure of the dog. Color breeders like to point to color predjudice, but the truth is that a good dog in any color can finish its championship.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am truly sorry you feel this way. There are some breeders of reds who are breeding "up" and breeding good dogs to better dogs, breeding reds to other colours to improve flaws in conformation, breeding health tested dogs to health tested dogs to try to get the healthiest puppies possible, breeding low COI's to low COI's, again with the goal of breeding the healthiest possible offspring.


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## CelticKitti (Jul 1, 2010)

I don't breed, and don't have red poodles so forgive my ignorance. 

I have two blacks a mini and a standard. My mini's conformation is not up to standard, but his littermate is a Ch. But that doesn't mean I love him any less than if I owned his championed littermate. He loves me, has a good temperament, loves to play flyball, gets along with other people and dogs, and generally loves life. For my purpose he is wonderful. I would like if he didn't have a luxating patella... but it is mild and I am fully prepared to surgically fix it if/when the time comes. But I couldn't ask for anymore. 

Cbrand... if you were to only breed the best conformation type poodles, wouldn't you loose the red color all together?? If you are saying only championed dogs should be bred how are you going to keep the red gene pool going?? It seems to me some red breeders are admitting conformation wise the reds aren't up to par with the white/black population, but how else are you going to get there unless you breed the best of what you have and improve the population like Arreau is stating. 

And if you only have a few red dogs that have finished their championship isn't that limiting the gene pool even further which could eventually lead to health problems down the road?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am truly sorry you feel this way. There are some breeders of reds who are breeding "up" and breeding good dogs to better dogs, breeding reds to other colours to improve flaws in conformation, breeding health tested dogs to health tested dogs to try to get the healthiest puppies possible, breeding low COI's to low COI's, again with the goal of breeding the healthiest possible offspring.


Oh, I'm pretty aware of who is doing a good job. I think Terry Farley has worked hard and so has Natalie at Lumier Poodles. The folks at Louter Creek have done well in hunting with their Red poodles. Our own NOLA is out there busting her hump to try and finish her Red girl owner handled. Do you want to mention some others? I'd love to see web sites.

Unfortunately, you can pretty much count on one or two hands the number of Red breeders who are really out there trying to improve the breed. It seems like most Red breeders are really just focused on churning out Red puppies that sell at a premium.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

CelticKitti said:


> I don't breed, and don't have red poodles so forgive my ignorance.
> 
> I have two blacks a mini and a standard. My mini's conformation is not up to standard, but his littermate is a Ch. But that doesn't mean I love him any less than if I owned his championed littermate. He loves me, has a good temperament, loves to play flyball, gets along with other people and dogs, and generally loves life. For my purpose he is wonderful. I would like if he didn't have a luxating patella... but it is mild and I am fully prepared to surgically fix it if/when the time comes. But I couldn't ask for anymore.
> 
> ...


The point cbrand is trying to make, is that the majority of red poodle breeders only breed for colour, and they are breeding untitled dogs. By untitled, that means obedience, agility, performance, conformation etc.
How are these breeders improving anything, when they are just going by their standards ? They are breeding only to un-health tested backgrounds, with only that vibrant rich red at heart. I also can't see how they have health at mind, when they continually breed young dogs too... it really just boggles my mind :wacko:

Why should they be given respect as breeders trying to "improve" reds and then pretty much saying, oh because they're red, they don't have to have a title of any sort ... ???


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

CelticKitti said:


> Cbrand... if you were to only breed the best conformation type poodles, wouldn't you loose the red color all together?? If you are saying only championed dogs should be bred how are you going to keep the red gene pool going?? It seems to me some red breeders are admitting conformation wise the reds aren't up to par with the white/black population, but how else are you going to get there unless you breed the best of what you have and improve the population like Arreau is stating.
> 
> And if you only have a few red dogs that have finished their championship isn't that limiting the gene pool even further which could eventually lead to health problems down the road?


By breeding to high quality Black or Apricot dogs. Breeding to Apricot and Black would also diversify the Red gene pool. Breeding mediocre Reds to mediocre Reds gets you no where. 

Oh and BTW.... I didn't say that only CH dogs should be bred. I said that a puppy buyer should question why a dog who had been shown for 6 years, by a pro, and could not finish.


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

Looking at that website I do not see a staement that the hadnler showed that dog for 6 years. It states he has spent 6 years in show coat, yes he was shown at PCA by a handler but that may have been just for PCA it is the same at WKC a lot of owners hire handlers just for that show because they know their chances are better at winning! There are just 5 red Ch in the USA that says something is going on.I have been to shows where I liked the red dog best of all and it desont even get a second look, there is a far higher chance of placing if you have black or white. At least the dog has been finished in 2 other Titles.

also on the website the woman had a stroke in 08 so that may well have kept that dog out of the show ring for some time. As for breeding if you are going to breed to another colour with Red it should be black, apricot is a fading gene., and should neevr be bred to red unless you are looking to improve apricot.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

While I like Farley's D dogs and EVERYTHING I hear about Terry, and like Lumiere's dogs, I have yet to see what I would consider a real red from either of these breeders. I think their dogs are STUNNING, but in my mind, they are not red. There is also a very real issue of one dog producing Addisons with three or four different females he has been bred to. I am not dissing the owner/breeder because crap happens, and no matter how much research one does, crap can still happen. 

Someone breeding reds can also run up against colour bias in areas other than the show ring. While some of us are doing everything we can to improve the quality of the reds we breed, there are lots of breeders of blacks who will not breed to a red, because they know the conformation is not generally as good as in the blacks and whites, and do not want pups that may not be as good as black pups might be conformationally, blamed on their male. So we are up against it regardless. This is why I own three stud dogs. While I am in contact with other breeders constantly, I am not at anyone's mercy to begin the process of improving my own dogs. And on top of working to improve the conformation, our goal is also to improve diversity in the pedigrees, so in the future, we will be able to consider breeding to a lot of other dogs we have seen because we are making every effort not to get painted into a genetic corner. 

Many blacks also have health issues in their backgrounds that a lot of us are trying to avoid, and a lot of them have brown in their backgrounds, which most of us are trying to avoid at all costs.

People who do not breed reds have no idea what difficulties are out there. I will bet Trillium and I have researched 300 pedigrees after seeing dogs photos or photos of their offspring on the internet, and of those, there might be 20 dogs we would consider breeding to. There are two dogs that chronically pop up in red pedigrees, one I will not touch with a ten foot pole. There are countless dogs out there who look terrific, but when you get down to the nitty gritty, have little to no health testing behind them or have a myriad of illnesses in their backgrounds. So, it is a tough slog, but slowly, it will happen, with enough dedicated folks out there willing to health test, willing to put the time into researching pedigrees, willing to work together....


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

HOTW said:


> Looking at that website I do not see a staement that the hadnler showed that dog for 6 years. It states he has spent 6 years in show coat, yes he was shown at PCA by a handler but that may have been just for PCA it is the same at WKC a lot of owners hire handlers just for that show because they know their chances are better at winning!


Fair enough. However, a buyer should ask these questions.




> I have been to shows where I liked the red dog best of all and it desont even get a second look, there is a far higher chance of placing if you have black or white. At least the dog has been finished in 2 other Titles.


When people say things like this, I always ask, "Did you put your hands on the dog?" If not, it is hard to know what the judge was finding under all that hair. As far as finishing in Canada goes, it is wayyyyyyyy easier to finish a dog in Canada. If an American dog can't finish in the US and only finishes in CA, it should raise questions with a puppy buyer. That's all I'm saying.



> As for breeding if you are going to breed to another colour with Red it should be black, apricot is a fading gene., and should neevr be bred to red unless you are looking to improve apricot.


I always thought this too, but in the Red/Apricot issue of Poodle Variety, a long time Red and Apricot Mini breeder wrote an article about the colors. She said that she got her best Reds (deepest Reds that held their color) from her Red to Apricot breedings. I think this may be because most Blacks carry Cream which is lighter still than Apricot.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

WOW!!!!!!! A Canadian championship is wayyyyyyyy easier to get than an American? I beg to differ. If a dog is not a good specimen it will not/ should not win-period! We have seen UKC championships dissed on this forum, now CKC championships are easy to get? No wonder so many people are turned off showing dogs. Are you saying people should not buy Canadian dogs with Canadian championships because they are sooooooo easy to get? Maybe I should hike downstairs and clip Quincy down, because it wlould be terribly unimpressive if/when he gets his Canadian championship.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> WOW!!!!!!! A Canadian championship is wayyyyyyy easier to get than an American? I beg to differ. If a dog is not a good specimen it will not/ should not win-period! We have seen on this forum UKC championships dissed, now CKC championships are easy to get? No wonder so many people are turned off showing dogs.


Re-read.

Carol was simply saying that a Canadian Championship was far easier to obtain than an American Championship, this is not the first time this has been stated on this forum, so I am not sure why you are so surprised.

The only reason people get turned off showing dogs, is because, particularly on this forum, it is constantly reinforced that showing is about is having the best grooming skills, or knowing the judge. Need I go and quote you ?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

jak said:


> Re-read.
> 
> Carol was simply saying that a Canadian Championship was far easier to obtain than an American Championship, this is not the first time this has been stated on this forum, so I am not sure why you are so surprised.
> 
> The only reason people get turned off showing dogs, is because, particularly on this forum, it is constantly reinforced that showing is about is having the best grooming skills, or knowing the judge. Need I go and quote you ?


There are lots of reasons some people are turned off showing dogs, the above noted being but two of them. Great grooming skills is definately a plus. Maintaining show coat is not for the feint of heart. Or for someone with a busy life, young kids, etc., etc. If they have a bottomless bank account and can pay someone to look after their show dog entirely, that would make things a whole lot easier. But most of us are not in that position. are we? I have said it before and will say it again...I will not force someone to look after a show coat unless it is something they are keen to do. 

Ohhhh....would it ever help to know a judge, but how could one feel good about a championship if it was acquired this way? Certainly not all champions have earned their titles by cheating ( dyed coats, wiggies, extensions) but we know it goes on. And not all champions have earned their championship with politics playing a role, but we know that happens too don't we? So lots of reasons to take a step back and think about if showing or titles are that important after all. And to some, they will not be, and that is THEIR preogative.

And I do not agree about Canadian championships being wayyyyyyy easier to obtain than American. Sorry. We will have to agree to disagree.


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

Hmm Ill ask my friend if she thinks it easier to get a Can Ch than an Am Ch. Ill getback on that one.hwell:


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> WOW!!!!!!! A Canadian championship is wayyyyyyyy easier to get than an American? I beg to differ. If a dog is not a good specimen it will not/ should not win-period! We have seen UKC championships dissed on this forum, now CKC championships are easy to get? No wonder so many people are turned off showing dogs. Are you saying people should not buy Canadian dogs with Canadian championships because they are sooooooo easy to get? Maybe I should hike downstairs and clip Quincy down, because it wlould be terribly unimpressive if/when he gets his Canadian championship.


Be offended if you want, but yes, it is wayyyyyy easier to finish a dog in Canada than in the US. In the CKC, you only need 10 points and you don't have to get majors. So you could show a Poodle 5 times against two other dogs each time and get a championship. 

http://users.asisna.com/eaglerock/show_canadianpoints.htm


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Be offended if you want, but yes, it is wayyyyyy easier to finish a dog in Canada than in the US. In the CKC, you only need 10 points and you don't have to get majors.


Yes, you need one.

Q. How many points do I need to earn a Conformation Championship title? 
A. Conformation championship points are awarded at Conformation Shows. To become a Conformation Champion, your dog must earn at least 10 points under at least three different judges and have earned at least one 2-point win, either at the breed or group level. Your dog must also be individually registered with the CKC or have an Event Registration Number.


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## tenortime (Aug 25, 2010)

Since I initiated this thread, maybe I can bring it back to my original intent. My wife and I are looking for a standard puppy--probably a brown, and we are scheduled to meet with a breeder in 10 days who breeds browns. But, I have also been intrigued by some of the reds that I have seen on this forum. I just wanted to see a red in person instead of through a picture. Reason is that some of the reds look much more like apricot than red, and some of the reds are REALLY red. I am not interested in an apricot. Even though some of you are Bijou fans and others are not, her reds really look red. But, I think I am out of luck because there are no red breeders, or even people who have reds as pets, near enough for me to drive and see.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> And I do not agree about Canadian championships being wayyyyyyy easier to obtain than American. Sorry. We will have to agree to disagree.


I don't know about waayyyyy easier. But...it requires 10 points as opposed to 15. And it doesn't require majors. Can we agree on those points? 

I don't think that it's entirely a bad thing that it's easier. I think it may help promote less extreme conformation, and a more flexible definition of acceptable type (e.g., a larger or smaller standard). Given the relative ease of finishing, I also look at other indicators of success in the CKC ring, such as group placements and finishing as a puppy. In both AKC and CKC, I look at the judges who awarded the points. I am sure it is no coincidence that my breeder's main web page features a photo of a dog winning under Annie Clark. 

I think a CH, either CKC or AKC (or UKC for a parti) is *one* indicator of *potential* breeding quality. It is also a sign that the breeder is interested in vetting her breeding stock in some way. I think there are circumstances where it is reasonable to breed a non-CH dog, and there are many circumstances where a CH should not be bred.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Yes, you need one.
> 
> Q. How many points do I need to earn a Conformation Championship title?
> A. Conformation championship points are awarded at Conformation Shows. To become a Conformation Champion, your dog must earn at least 10 points under at least three different judges and have earned at least one 2-point win, either at the breed or group level. Your dog must also be individually registered with the CKC or have an Event Registration Number.


Yes but to get a two point win in Canada, you only have to beat two other dogs. How hard is that? If I had shown Delilah in Canada she would already be a Champion. Instead, she is only 1/2 way to her US championship and she still has to beat out at least 11 other bitches one day to pick up her second major. :scared: That's hard to do!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

The OP is requesting to have THEIR thread back to topic I hope everyone respects this and maybe start their own thread on the most recent off topic conversation. 

I think being open to a few color pics - this way it will open a larger pool of breeders to select the right one.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Yes...sorry...that did get a little wayward didn't it? Cbrand can tell you about brown breeders. I know nothing about them.

How far are you from Bismarck, North Dakota. Plumcrazy lives there with Lucy, one of my pups from 2009. I know she would be only too happy to show her off to you.


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## tenortime (Aug 25, 2010)

Bismarck is about 400 miles away--so that's probably a 6 1/2 hour drive each way. Not very close. As to looking at other color options, I know that health and temperament and a great breeder are foremost and color is a distant fourth BUT, let's be honest, color does make a difference to alot of us. We just get excited over certain colors and it's difficult to set that excitement aside. As log as there are healthy and good temperament reds a and browns, and good reputable breeders of those poodles, that's what we would prefer.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Tenortime, here is the breeder referral contact for the Twin Cities Poodle Club. Local poodle clubs are a great place to start looking for a breeder:

Breeder Referral - Twin Cities Poodle Club Inc.

Please please please do your homework about what to look for in a breeder...then fall in love. Stay away from any breeder who talks about "chocolate" poos. Labs are chocolate. Poodles are brown. "Chocolate" is the "teacup toy" marketing gimmick of color.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Feralpudel said:


> Tenortime, here is the breeder referral contact for the Twin Cities Poodle Club. Local poodle clubs are a great place to start looking for a breeder:
> 
> Breeder Referral - Twin Cities Poodle Club Inc.
> 
> Please please please do your homework about what to look for in a breeder...then fall in love. Stay away from any breeder who talks about "chocolate" poos. Labs are chocolate. Poodles are brown. "Chocolate" is the "teacup toy" marketing gimmick of color.


Agreed. And of someone tells you they gurantee their red pups will not fade, while we may have had pups that do not, NOBODY can guarantee that.


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## fracturedcircle (Aug 19, 2010)

Feralpudel said:


> This breeder spays/neuters before the puppy leaves. Although I understand the paranoia that drives that decision, I would not buy a puppy, especially a standard, from such a breeder. If she doesn't trust me enough to s/n in the future at an agreed-upon time, why is she selling me a puppy at all?


yeah, i don't like that either.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

tenortime said:


> Bismarck is about 400 miles away--so that's probably a 6 1/2 hour drive each way. Not very close.


We will probably be driving to Fargo with Lucy in the next few months for a groom. If you're at all interested in meeting us and seeing her, we'd be glad to set something up (however, it may be risky driving weather since it will be during winter, yet...) Just a thought!!

Barb


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

tenortime said:


> Even though some of you are Bijou fans and others are not


...o'rly?


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

tenortime said:


> I just wanted to see a red in person instead of through a picture. Reason is that some of the reds look much more like apricot than red, and some of the reds are REALLY red. I am not interested in an apricot. Even though some of you are Bijou fans and others are not, her reds really look red. But, I think I am out of luck because there are no red breeders, or even people who have reds as pets, near enough for me to drive and see.


I don't have any recommendations, but I would say you are very smart to want to see the reds in person. In the small amount of browsing of red breeder websites I have done, it is clear that most have younger photos of their dogs when their colour is most vibrant. And as was already said many are breeding young dogs, so saying "the parents have kept their colour" doesn't say much.

However, this is also true for browns, who also often fade a lot. The reality is many Poodles of colour do not hold it past a certain age. This is why it is important that you take more into account than colour, because while you might not want an apricot or faded brown dog, that might be just what you end up with regardless of how dark the puppy you picked up was. As has been said no breeder can guarantee a dark colour because it can change so much as the puppy grows.


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## tenortime (Aug 25, 2010)

I totally understand and I appreciate all the comments. I am going to see some adult reds this weekend--the breeder only 35 minutes away has some adult reds and apricots even though she is currently not breeding reds, and next weekend I see some browns at the brown breeder's home. I am interested in seeing "faded" reds and "faded" browns. That may help me make the decision between the 2 since fading is more than likely going to occur. With the brown breeder I'll also be able to meet the 2 Moms and Dads of the upcoming litters and meet the breeder which is far more important than the colors anyway. ALTHOUGH I would love a really dark brown or red that stayed that way (of course I said the same thing about my own hair that used to be black. thick and curly and is now sparse and gray).


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

tenortime said:


> I totally understand and I appreciate all the comments. I am going to see some adult reds this weekend--the breeder only 35 minutes away has some adult reds and apricots even though she is currently not breeding reds, and next weekend I see some browns at the brown breeder's home. I am interested in seeing "faded" reds and "faded" browns. That may help me make the decision between the 2 since fading is more than likely going to occur. With the brown breeder I'll also be able to meet the 2 Moms and Dads of the upcoming litters and meet the breeder which is far more important than the colors anyway. ALTHOUGH I would love a really dark brown or red that stayed that way (of course I said the same thing about my own hair that used to be black. thick and curly and is now sparse and gray).


LOL!!! Totally hear you!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I know exactly where you are coming from, Tenortime. My original plan was for a brown poodle - but I rather wanted a dark brown that stayed dark. When I looked into the reds and apricots, I decided that I liked all the shades, and would rather have a red or dark apricot pup that cleared to a lighter shade than a lightened brown. So having made that decision, it was a matter of finding the right pup ... Of course colour should not be a major part of the decision, but for most of us it is!


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

cbrand said:


> So why can't a Poodle have it all? Why shouldn't a Poodle with good temperament and good health also have good structure, movement and breed type?
> 
> Why would a puppy buyer settle for anything less?



I'm not saying a Poodle can't have it all, but I was only looking to buy a companiion dog. I honestly have neither the time nor the inclination to show a dog. I wanted a healthy, good tempered dog that I could enjoy for many years.

In fact, I didn't even know about things like the CGN or rally. I knew Finnegan would be a fairly large dog so I wanted to take him to training to make sure that I would be able to walk him without having my arm pulled out of the socket. I had a 110 lb husky growing up and I used to walk him about 5 miles, but the first 3 was spent with him at the end of the leash, even though he was on a choke collar - which I hated to have to do. But that was many years ago, and where I came from, no one took their dog to training.

Once Finnegan and I finished our puppy class, I found I - and I hope he - enjoyed the basic rally and agility that we did in the context of the puppy class and we have continued on. Will I ever trial him - maybe, mabe not. For now we are learning, meeting a lot of nice people and enjoying ourselves. We practice, but I will not cram it down his throat, I just don't see the point. I want him to have a happy life.

cbrand, I admire your knowledge of Poodles and your desire & dedication to showing, but honestly can you imagine if every person who bought a dog only wanted a perfect one? What would happen to the rest? How many show quality dogs come from every litter. I equate it to families - not every child in every family is going to be a beauty queen or nobel peace prize winner, but that doesn't mean that they should not be loved, does it?


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

tenortime said:


> though some of you are Bijou fans and others are not, her reds really look red.


tenortime, my Finnegan is from Bijou. I can tell you that like all red litters that I have seen, the color varied within his litter . Finnegan was one of the darkest from his litter and he seems to be holding the color - but he is only 14.5 months old. I love his color, so I really hope it doesn't fade, but if it does, it won't make a difference to me, he is the apple of my eye! 

I have had a wonderful experience with this breeder. She has always responded to my questions very quickly and followed up after the fact for whatever I was asking her to make sure that I had the info I needed.

Good luck finding your pup!


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