# Docking



## Brittany May (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi everybody!

I was wondering about tail docking... As far as I know tail docking is still permitted in NZ, whereas in Australia it is banned in many states. Is it still allowed in America?

Did you have the choice to have your dogs tail docked? Do you prefer docked tails, or natural? On your next puppy, would you rather docked or natural? If you are a breeder, do you dock your tails? Why?

I am unsure whether I should get my puppy's tail to be docked, if the breeder I choose does it. I don't know whether it causes pain. If it does, I would rather no docking.

Does anybody have photos of natural vs docked tails, not on show dogs for me to look at? I find it difficult to look past all of the hair :bulgy-eyes:


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## wickednag (Nov 30, 2011)

I do not have an issue with docking of tails or ears. I prefer the look and yes it is still legal here in the U.S. I am not a breeder so can't help you there.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I greatly prefer undocked - it has taken only a few years of banning cosmetic docking in the UK for full tails to become the norm, and now it is the docked dogs that look peculiar. And I really, really dislike cropped ears - while it can be argued that docking is painless done at the right age, I don't think anyone would claim that ear cropping is not painful.

There have been several threads discussing the issue on here - with sometimes heated arguments on both sides! My own view is that it is an unnecessary procedure, done purely because it has been fashionable, and that it is simply not worth even a small risk that the dog may suffer at the time or in the future. For detailed arguments against, see Google


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## Gorky (Jul 14, 2009)

I actively chose a breeder who did not dock tails. I think it is absolutely beautiful to see natural tails wagging and moving as spoos run. Here are a few photos of Lichen with his tail in motion. The tail is part of the spine and this was confirmed by my vet.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

Wow, what a beautiful tail Lichen has!!!


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## Pudel-Fan (Nov 1, 2011)

I too, prefer undocked tails. The problem might be in finding a breeder who meets all your requirements and doesn't dock tails and has puppies available. Since the tails have to be docked within a few days, (three or so I think) and many breeders haven't decided which puppies they are going to keep, and which puppies are going to be the right temperment for each buyer. So not many breeders who dock tails would agree to leave a tail undocked for just one buyer. How would they know at 3 days which might be show quality or which might be the right puppy for you?

That being said the next poodle puppy I get I will try to find a breeder who doesn't dock tails, but I won't make that the deciding factor. As some great breeders show and therefore dock tails.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I prefer a natural tail, though all my dogs are docked and came that way to me. I'll request my next poodle to have a full tail. I've had breeders say it wont look good if it's a gay tail carried over the back, but I think it's a beautiful look regardless.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

I really prefer a docked tail. It hurts them no more then their first shots and those are a necessity! Its all a personal preference but I do NOT like the look of a full tail (no offense). I also don't like the look of a short docked tail... I like the look of a lengthy docked tail. 
If you are worried about pain, its very slight and forgotten immediately (not unlike a circumsized male baby). 
Pinned ears are a completely different story!! That is excrutiatingly painful for a dog to go through.


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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

Our toy had a tail that was not docked. People would often ask what kind of dog she was with such a long tail. I would tell them she was a poodle and had all of her poodle tail!


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## Brittany May (Feb 9, 2012)

I guess it will just depend on the breeder. I don't mind the look either way.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

I personally like a docked tail, not too short though! I don't think it hurts too terribly much, and like some one else said any pain is soon forgotten as the pups are only a few days old. Ears...not sure how I feel about them, but seeing as I am highly unlikely to have a breed that typically gets that done, I probably don't need to worry about it.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

We had a toy poodle with a natural tail and her groomer would put a fluff on the end of it. We called it her "bicycle flag" tail.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Oh I'm not worried about pain, I don't think they're in much pain when they get it done (there's a video of a vet doing it, but he is a moron and takes as long as humanly possible to do it) my decision is based purely on vanity. Dewclaws, however, I believe should be removed due to benefit the dogs life to prevent injury.


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

My puppy has a docked tail, put I would've much preferred a natural one. The long waggy tail is just so gorgeous to me. I saw a phantom spoo in the dog park the other day with a long natural tail, shaved, and he/she was stunning!


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Wow!!! I have NEVER seen a poodle with a tail as long and full as Lichens! He is amazing! All I could think of is that he looks like a great big cat! Please don't go reading that as offensive, it's certainly not meant that way!  

As for the original post? I don't have much valuable to add.

I work at a vet clinic in Canada. One of our doctors will still dock and do dew claws, but not ears. The other doctor will do hind dews only if they do not seem like they will be of the "attached" variety. (like the front ones tucked in close and firmly attached to bone) He generally avoids doing those though, since it would be tough to tell how attached the claw may be in adulthood due to the young age pups are usually done at. He prefers to educate people and just stress that they must teach all new owners how to keep dews short and filed so there is less chance of future injury.

When the tails get done, our doctor uses a small amount of lidocaine injection on each pup a good 5-10 minutes before doing the tails. We get the odd peep from the pain of the lidocaine, but it is usually just that, a little peep. When the actual tails are getting done, often there is no noise. The doctor also leaves a little extra skin on the top of the tail and then pulls it over the end and does a single suture on the bottom of the tail. This make for a nice "scar free" end, particularly on jack russels. 

On a side note both of our doctors actively participated in the BC Veterinary Medical Societys forum on banning cropping and docking. Both support the ban and contributed pictures of clients pets left in their natural form to the "pro banning" efforts. 

I technically own a poodle although I don't have her yet. Yes, she has a dock. Would I have preferred natural tail? ABSOLUTELY! At least she has a much longer dock than most of what I have been seeing. 

In the past I have owned a retired show great dane with cropped ears and I LOVED the look, my second dane was a rescue with natural ears and I also loved to pull on them and pet them. They were so soft and gave her a lot of character, though I can say it did detract a bit for the "Regal" look that is required in the AKC great dane standards. lol 

If I was to ever breed poodles, I hope I would make the choice not to dock. However, I am not into serious competition in the show ring, and would likely encourage new owners to enjoy their dogs as pets first anyway  

As a note, before purchasing my girl I went and viewed 5 other litters, of those only one was left natural and advertised as "Teddy Bear Poodles". I think even in "unregistered" dogs, here in Canada docking is still very much the norm .

Rebecca


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

I like both, depending on the styling and hair texture. I'm not especially fond of the flag tail look that comes with an undocked tail that doesn't have a lot of texture or curl, which seems more common on toys. If it has plenty of curl and texture you can hardly tell the difference with the traditional pompon. I love undocked tails fully shaved, and don't understand why people dislike it (considering that it looks just like the tail of any smooth coated dog, like a pointer or a greyhound).

I like a docked tail as long as it's done well, no super short ones! They're impossible to work with grooming-wise. Either you shave it and have a little schnauzer nubbin, or you do a bunny tail, which inevitably never holds its shape because it gets sat on.

My mini has a long dock, typical of what is popular in the US show ring. I don't think her tail would have had more than another two to three inches more on it naturally, it is quite thin towards its end. It's very well done and has no scar at the tip. My parents older Spoo has a rather bad dock, too short and it has a skinny, boney spur at the end, which happens if they person docking doesn't leave any skin to cover, and doesn't suture the tip. I suspect the breeders did it themselves rather than having a vet do it. Illegal, but still common with BYBs, unfortunately.

I prefer dewclaws removed, front and back. Blame it on being a groomer: so few owners even notice or care that their dogs dewclaws are growing back into their skin.

I'm also not over concerned with the pain involved with tail docking or dewclaws either, it is done when they are days old; they will never remember. I grew up on a farm and we had to do some unpleasant things to our goats when they were babies as well, like dehorning. But, like dewclaw removal, it was a necessary evil, done to prevent curious goats from getting stuck in fences, breaking their horns and bleeding or strangling to death.

Of course docking is just a fashion, not a necessity. Fashions can change though. The Affenpincher breed went from always having cropped ears and docked tails to being fully natural in less than five years. It just took the breed club acknowledging a turn around, and a couple of really gorgeous natural dogs setting a new trend.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Docking is not permitted in the UK, but even if it were, I wouldn't support docking. It's cosmetic, serves no purpose, and can cause all sorts of problems. Plus, I can't imagine my dog without his tail ... he is incredibly expressive with it. I'm amazed how quick one gets used to the look of undocked boxers, spaniels, dobermans ... they all look great with their tails.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Poodlepup1 said:


> (not unlike a circumsized male baby)


Quite possibly. http://www.circumstitions.com/Law-cont.html

Tail docking is illegal in my country and for that I'm glad. Nonconsensual infant circumcision is unfortunately still legal, and a lawsuit waiting to happen.

For those who live in countries where it is permitted: I understand that a proper tail in the show ring would count as a disadvantage. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if dogs with tails had a slight advantage in sports like agility. Quadrupeds like dogs use their tails for balance and manoeuvrability. The dog is essentially 'built' to have the correct centre of balance with its tail; if you remove the tail, particularly from a young age, the dog will learn to compensate, but the balance will never be perfect. People born with no arms can learn to use their feet and mouths and become very able in this way, but they're never quite as able as someone with hands. The dogs I know without tails always look kind of stiff and not quite right in the hindquarter area in motion.

If you want a dog to show in a country where docking is permitted, it's probably best to look for a docked one. If you want an agility dog, one with a tail may be a better choice. If you just want a pet, use your own sense of ethics and aesthetics to choose.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

We do our own docking and dew claw removal, so we know it is done right. I have seen far too many vet done tails that end up looking like chicken nuggets. I prefer a docked tail, but a longish dock. While I am open to undocked, I am not there yet.

It is illegal in our Maritime provinces for a vet to dock unless medically needed. But it is not illegal to dock yourself or find someone else who does it, just not a vet.

I did not find Quincy's natural tail caused us much grief in the show ring. He had two strikes against him- his small size and his big tail- and he finished his championship without a problem. Hopefully one day they will all look like his, so it is not a consideration at all.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

I have to say Pudel fan took the words right out of my mouth  I was not able to find a breeder I liked, that had puppies available, and undocked tails when I was looking for Russell. Pretty sure the same thing is going to happen this time as well, but I do keep looking and asking


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Zyrcona-- I decided NOT to have my son circumsized (he's 6 now). It poses a lot of risks and I didn't like the idea of it. I know the pain wouldn't have been an issue (it would have been forgotten quickly) but studies have shown there are more risks then benefits. 
I've not heard of many risks with tail docking. I prefer the appearance of a longish dock (should measure the length of the neck). I don't like short docks (bunny tails) nor do I like the natural look.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Poodlepup1 said:


> I know the pain wouldn't have been an issue (it would have been forgotten quickly) but studies have shown there are more risks then benefits.


With infant circumcision, I don't think it's a question of pain. It's whether people should be entitled to the bodies they were born with. If someone is an informed, consenting adult and decides he wants it pierced, circumcised, split in two, removed so he can become a she, etc. good for him. If not, it's mutilation. Pain happens. After all, being born must hurt like hell. It's the reason for the pain and the outcome of it that matter.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Zyrcona-- I agree with you completely. Those were my exact thoughts when people mentioned circumsision... I thought it wasn't my choice it was my sons choice when he's old enough to make it. That's why I just couldn't do it! 
Back to tails-- If you are worried about pain, its minimal and forgotten very fast. If you are worried about appearance, its your personal preference! Good luck with your decisions!


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

From what Ive read docks did/do have a function. From not catching burrs in their tails while herding, to preventing injury and infection from injury.. I can believe that with how hard some tails whip around like a whip when they are wagging tails. For the poodle I read long tails interfered with their swimming/retrieving (not sure how), and that a docked tail was easier to see than a natural when they were retrieving in the water.

As for me I like the look of the long docks. As a groomer I hate dew claws and short docks as well.. Any issues with docked tails are from improperly short dock tails. I hate the look of natural tails.. they are not as elegant or balanced, and some are on the verge of looking doodle.. and dont like the shaved rat tail look either. I just dont care for doodles, or their look... and had to shave some breeds with matted long tails.. not pretty.. JMHO. I might get used to natural on a dog with a straight tail, with super thick proper poodle coat... otherwise it looks too doodle for my taste.. or even a portie.. Unless it is a small doodle then it can at least look like a bichon.. But in all cases I would just get that type of dog if I want that look.

Not worried about pain as it is done very young and quickly forgotten. Ears.. I only like cropped ears by a vet who knows how to do it properly. I dont condone cropping or docking by BYB as they always look mutilated, and are painful for the dog.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

There is evidence of long term damage from docking, including increased susceptibility to pain, incontinence, potential problems with communication and behaviour - www.onekind.org/uploads/publications/tail-docking-dogs.pdf There is no valid reason to dock poodles (in the UK, it is still legal to dock pups from working lines, that are intended to be working dogs, but I don't believe there was ever any attempt to exempt even working poodles under this category). My view is that if there is any pain at all, even if it is transient, and if there is any chance of longer term damage, then it is not justified for what is a purely cosmetic procedure, continued because it has been the fashion and people expect that "look". I also suspect that some - if not many - breeders have got away with breeding gay, curly tailed poodles in the past with the help of judicious docking!


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

I prefer the look of docked tails, but if the tail is undocked I actually _like_ the tail to be very curled and "gay". I don't particularly care for the long straight plumes, especially on puppies. I think once the tail is fuller and has adult hair, maybe a natural tail would look better. Here are some photos for reference: 

Nova, the parti, has a long dock
Bridgette, the cream puppy, had a natural tail
Sonya, the silver, had a normal dock.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

The "retriever" tail on a poodle looks neat and clean on a short or retriever-clipped poodle and looks good on a docked or undocked tail.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I also prefer a natural tail to be gay.


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## Siskojan (Mar 13, 2011)

Sisko has the gayest tail ever. It curls over and touches his back and drives him crazy trying to see what just touched him. It is undocked and when he's happy and excited it curls right up over his back. When he's subdued, or just very calm and relaxed or asleep it is held straight, and it is usually straight and relaxed when he's eating. His tail is extremely sensitive from base to tip. When I touch it or groom it it is like handling something very much alive and he will curl and uncurl it joint by joint, it pulsates with energy. Our breeder posted articles about tails being like rudders in the water and part of their high speed balance mechanism when running and turning. I can see where having such a touchy tail like this could be problematic, but I'm glad he's got his (and his dew claws).


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> It is illegal in our Maritime provinces for a vet to dock unless medically needed. But it is not illegal to dock yourself or find someone else who does it, just not a vet.


That is interesting; in the US, it's the opposite. Technically only a licensed vet is supposed to dock, but there are many breeders do it themselves anyway (and no one goes around policing this either). My breeder has a vet do it, but she is present and tells him exactly where to cut to leave the proper length, and he makes a point to leave enough skin to suture for no scarring. There are plenty of vets who don't know how/don't bother to do that.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

...I'll bite

as one of only 3...maybe 4 males on this forum AND someone that spends alot...ALOT of time around certain appendages I can not only ATTEST to the cleanliness and necessity of circumcision I can also say it just down right looks better

I have NOT been traumatized/scarred by my parents making a hygienic decision, do I wish it were mine to make...uhhh NO because it's a painful surgery when done at anything but a few days old! Not to mention taking the price from around 3k to about 15k simply because it's an elective cosmetic surgery...thankfully it will never be banned in the states or I'd have to move to Israel and thats not in my plans as of yet ;P

I am so thankful my mom mutilated my body, and I'm pretty sure my ex's are all fairly happy with their parents mutilation as well...seeing as we don't have to pay cash for it now ;D

BTW
docked tails look the best IMO
and cropped ears...show me one Dane, Dobe, Boxer that doesn't look like a dopey fool with its ears un-cropped


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## Brittany May (Feb 9, 2012)

Keithsomething said:


> and cropped ears...show me one Dane, Dobe, Boxer that doesn't look like a dopey fool with its ears un-cropped


To that, Sir, I raise you Lacey


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Keithsomething said:


> as one of only 3...maybe 4 males on this forum AND someone that spends alot...ALOT of time around certain appendages I can not only ATTEST to the cleanliness and necessity of circumcision I can also say it just down right looks better


That sounds absolutely disgusting. "Cleanliness and necessity"? Are you trying to say you don't clean your penis because it's been circumcised? You should be cleaning your "appendage" regardless of whether or not it's circumcised. This is coming from a woman that's spent some time around both circumcised AND uncircumsised penises. Maybe it was a necessity back in the days of desert nomads who barely had enough water to wet their throats let alone wash their foreskins, but anyone with a tap has no excuse to use cleanliness as an excuse for mutilating their children. ANY surgery has risks, especially on neonates, not the least of which is infection! You are deliberately creating an open wound in an area that will be smothered in diapers and smeared with urine and feces. You also have the risk of human error, there're several incidences each year of doctors cutting off too much, resulting in anything from scarring to removal of the entire organ, to hemorrhage, or on rare occasion, death. While the chances are slight, the benefits are even slighter - seriously, a couple extra seconds of rinsing in the shower vs cutting off a piece of your penis?


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## Brittany May (Feb 9, 2012)

Well that went in a different direction than I thought... Started out talking about the docking of dogs tails, and somehow it went to cutting off bits of penis and washing. Lovely.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Well arctic fox when you grow a penis I'll take your opinion as valid ;D 
I never said they didn't have their dangers all surgeries do...which is the reason it costs even more as an adult to have it done because it's an ELECTIVE surgery... (I see you live in Canada...the land of "free" health insurance ;D) but I think it's plan FOOLISH to say someone should have the "right" to lobbing off a piece of SKIN when its a SIMPLE procedure that can mean the difference of years of pain, want me to bust out the statistics on low blood flow to the penis head because of the foreskin being to tight? How about the fact that they tend to get erectile dysfunction more often than circumcised ones? 

and I agree uncircumcised penises are disgusting, ;D thus the reason I choose to be around men with circumcised ones (don't try and mock me with your quotes I was being polite by calling it an appendage...)

Thats a great looking Dane Brittany May...but I still stand by what I believe, 

I just feel dogs with cropped ears look infinitely better (of breeds that cropping is the norm)


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## Brittany May (Feb 9, 2012)

Personally, I prefer no cropping. I grew up with Boxers with docked tails, and maybe if they had been cropped I would feel different. I only think there is a need for cropping if the dogs have risk of torn ears due to the work they do. 

I much prefer the look of the Dane crop to the Amstaff crop, but I still think it is completely unnecessary.

Redirect Notice

I absolutely adore Lacey's ears. They give her so much character, and I think she looks more feminine than females with cropped ears. IMO she looks just as regal & elegant with natural vs cropped.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Absolutely, it's completely an aesthetic thing I'm not going to try and argue the point that cropping ears now is beneficial to the breed...but having been to shows I can tell you there is NOTHING like seeing a boxer standing stacked and from the profile with cropped ears it's absolutely STUNNING!!
But I also get that it's all a personal preference thing, I think Lucy is a great looking girl, adorable...but FOR ME she doesn't command the attention that a dog with cropped ears would in the ring...again just a personal preference of mine


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Brittany May said:


> Personally, I prefer no cropping. I grew up with Boxers with docked tails, and maybe if they had been cropped I would feel different. I only think there is a need for cropping if the dogs have risk of torn ears due to the work they do...


. I have a friend with a boxer, who was both uncropped and undocked....when he got to be about 1, the tail split at the end from wagging so hard and knocking it on things. My friend and his vet tried and tried to get it to heal, but it just kept getting reopened. In the end they just docked it while the dog was under for his neuter. So for dogs with very long, whip-like tails, I believe that docking is safer for them. For the other breeds, it is for sure an aesthetic issue that, IMO, is a matter of personal preference. Honestly, the possible issues seem pretty slight (I've yet to see a dog negatively affected by tail docking.) and it doesn't seem to distress the dog for more than a few seconds...maybe.


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## Brittany May (Feb 9, 2012)

Lacey has a whip tail, I imagine if I was a male I would prefer her docked 

I think it is only a matter of time before Lace splits the end of her tail, tbh. She is just too long to stand in the hallway wagging her tail, lol.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I've seen some weird thread topic drift, but this one has to be one of the most interesting drifts :smile:. Docking to circumcision in 9 posts ...

Personally, I think any mutilation for cosmetic reasons, including circumcision, is wrong, but I'm not falling into the trap of getting into the aesthetics of it!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> Thats a great looking Dane Brittany May...but I still stand by what I believe,
> 
> I just feel dogs with cropped ears look infinitely better (of breeds that cropping is the norm)


To get firmly back on topic, I think this sums up the main argument for both cropping and docking - it has become the "norm", and part of how we have defined the breeds. Ban docking and cropping, and the norm changes within about 5 - 7 years, as the unmutilated dogs (and yes, it is a mutilation, whether done by vet, breeder, or yob with a pair of secateurs) preponderate. I find dogs with cropped ears look very peculiar - cropping has been banned since 1899, so I never saw them as a child until I went abroad. In the UK now, with the exception of working breeds, the only youngish dogs you see with docked tails have been done illegally by BYB - or worse, as older pups or young adults by cruel owners who want them to look "hard". Which is, as far as I can see, the reason for cropping ears - to make a dog look as if it has been bred for fighting, or to make it look constantly on the alert and ready to attack. 

Yes, some dogs with whip tails damage them, but only a minority of breeds with whip tails have ever been docked. Some hunting and herding breeds were traditionally docked, some were not. All the arguments eventually come down to "I think they look better that way" - not, IMO, a sufficient reason to inflict any pain or discomfort whatsoever!


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Keithsomething said:


> I am so thankful my mom mutilated my body, and I'm pretty sure my ex's are all fairly happy with their parents mutilation as well...seeing as we don't have to pay cash for it now ;D


Then this has worked to your benefit in your particular tastes in yourself as a man and in your sexual orientation towards men. However, consider how it works in other possible scenarios.

Someone who is not circumcised and wishes to choose this particular body modification can do so by paying some money and suffering a bit of pain. I am sure if you were such a person who really wanted this, you would be prepared to put up with that, just as someone who would like a Prince Albert piercing would also be prepared to pay for it and put up with the pain. Someone who was circumcised without his consent and dislikes this body modification has no straightforward solution. It doesn’t matter to me how many people in what proportion are OK with having this done to them when there are other people who have had it done and don’t want it and have no recourse.

It’s also at the top of a slippery slope of mutilations/modifications on infants. If someone is born with a penis that surgeons decide is abnormal or too small, the surgeons are legally allowed to remove that person’s appendage and ‘make’ him a girl. This happens and I think it’s appalling. Everyone should be entitled to whatever natural, healthy body they were born with. What they choose to do with it after that is up to them. And you liking your own body modifications has no bearing on anyone else or their rights. Just because there are men with foreskins who like being that way does not mean you have to have relationships with them. Finding a penis unattractive or unhygienic is a sexual preference and you are entitled to yours and others are entitled to theirs.

This is not meant to be a criticism of you, your mother, or anyone else who has made the decision to perform cosmetic surgical modifications on someone else unable to give consent, but a comment on the society that allows it and the fashion that makes it acceptable.


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## ADA10 (May 24, 2011)

Poodlepup1 said:


> It hurts them no more then their first shots and those are a necessity! I also don't like the look of a short docked tail... I like the look of a lengthy docked tail.
> If you are worried about pain, its very slight and forgotten immediately (not unlike a circumsized male baby).
> Pinned ears are a completely different story!! That is excrutiatingly painful for a dog to go through.


Pain is subjective and no-one can yet state what level of pain is caused to an individual puppy but what is scientifically agreed that IT IS painful (_and should not be compared with their first shots!_). It can also go wrong resulting in death especially if the lines carry von Willebrand's disease. Kennel Clubs (breeders) have laid down a standard for tail length so amputation is not done by breeders on an arbitrary length but one that - unfortunately - passes muster in the show ring. Many countries have now banned docking (and ear cropping) and dogs cannot be shown with either of these procedures having been done.
On this link  http://anti-dockingalliance.com/utilwork_12.htm can be found examples of undocked Poodles being shown. There are also breeders listed for Canada and the States of Stds. who do not dock. 
Health of stock is also a very important issue when buying into a breed and breeders need to be asked about eye test results, hip scores and any other such health check for the particular breed.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

fjm said:


> (...)I also suspect that some - if not many - breeders have got away with breeding gay, curly tailed poodles in the past with the help of judicious docking!


And also overly long tails, and individuals with vertebra faults such as tail kinks.


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## Nora O (Sep 27, 2013)

Roz's tail was not docked because she was the runt of her litter (and she is still quite small @ 37 lbs.) My husband & I weren't thrilled with it when she was a pup because it had very little hair and looked like a pig's tail. Plus, we were used to Hotspur, who had a short dock. But as she grew, so did the hair on her tail and when it is brushed out, it's actually very pretty! I know the docking was done for practical reasons when poodles were used as hunting dogs. I'm not sure we need to do it anymore.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

This is a very old thread, why the resurrection?


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I like to looks of a docked tail on the small poodles, I like the sp with regular length tails. I would assume it would hurt although they do it at a very young age, it hurt when I got my ears pierced, LOL


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

Luce has a natural tail and I love it - always has and always will

The first picture was at 6 weeks old, the second 2 years 2 months. It curled more as she grew. I'm not sure which end is cuter - head or tail


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I do prefer the look of a docked tail, but definitely don't mind a natural tail. I like the length of Naira's tail, and I heard a longer tail was more important in standards for balance? 








My tpoos tail was almost non existent.


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## The Opera Poodle (Dec 19, 2012)

Not that it adds to the argument, but I like docked tails on poodles.

I like docked ears on danes and boxers.

The one and only time I dated an uncircumcised male - I was grossed out. 

And I have needles stuck in my forehead, jowls, and around my eyes for anti-aging. I have had laser zaps that were like hot rubber bands for hair removal, and one day I hope to have enough money to be carved like a up like a turkey and reassembled like a swan. I wore braces on my teeth as a teen and every time they tightened them, I wanted to die for the next two days. I jam my feet in tiny steep shoes to the point of having to drink a fifth of vodka just to deal with the pain (just joking - I don't drink but wanted the reader to get the full effect of how my feet hurt.) And I give money to charities every time I see a commercial with starving children because I know how they feel - once I hit 40 it was starvation or exercise and I wasn't about to run on those aching feet.

Moral of my story - it is all personal preference.


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

All of mine have natural tails. I keep the hair on them long. Here is Missy's.


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

The Opera Poodle said:


> The one and only time I dated an uncircumcised male - I was grossed out.
> 
> 
> .



do you interview them regarding this? Is it a deal breaker? Sorry just messing with you. It sure made me giggle. ??


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## The Opera Poodle (Dec 19, 2012)

PoodlePaws said:


> do you interview them regarding this? Is it a deal breaker? Sorry just messing with you. It sure made me giggle. ??



If I gave you the details, I would be banned. I can say, while it wasn't the deal breaker, it was a surprise I wish I had been warned of in advance. Like buying a poodle from a breeder whom you assumed docked their dogs and then being handed a full tail dog on Gotcha Day, you would be surprised at what was wagging at you. ?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

The Opera Poodle said:


> If I gave you the details, I would be banned. I can say, while it wasn't the deal breaker, it was a surprise I wish I had been warned of in advance. Like buying a poodle from a breeder whom you assumed docked their dogs and then being handed a full tail dog on Gotcha Day, you would be surprised at what was wagging at you. ?



Thanks for the first laugh that I have had in a long time


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

And as far as tails go, the only thing that displeases me is one that is too short.
Or one that is so long that it doesn't look like it belongs on that body.
And I guess that we could say the same about men too...


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

I cannot really tell if mine are docked or not. If someone on PF has an undocked large toy, I wish they would measure the length so I could compare. M&A seem to have a "flat straight across" tip on the tail. I will have to measure tomorrow. They have their few claws. don't breeders usually have the claws removed when the tail is docked?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

PoodlePaws said:


> I cannot really tell if mine are docked or not. If someone on PF has an undocked large toy, I wish they would measure the length so I could compare. M&A seem to have a "flat straight across" tip on the tail. I will have to measure tomorrow. They have their few claws. don't breeders usually have the claws removed when the tail is docked?



Yes they are usually done at the same time. Though I did have one breeder many years ago who docked but left dews thinking it was important to gait. Timi has a long dock and I have seen pictures of undocked poodles that have tails the same length as hers. I like the look, but it sure is easier to scissor Teaka's traditional show dock.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I like the look of undocked tails and will seek out a breeder who doesn't dock when the time comes. Plus, even though I own pet dogs, I'd like to see docking go away in conformation rings on this side of the ocean. Will it be a deal breaker if I find a great breeder who docks but is what I want in every other way? Probably not- nothing's ever black and white. But I'm looking at parti- colors, so that may be easier to find as they don't have the pressure of the AKC standards for showing. 

Lily, my poodle mix, has a tail that I believe to be very similar to a natural poodle tail. I think it's beautiful, and complements her little athletic poodle body nicely. Here's a pic with very long hair on it- recently I've been trimming it shorter. It also reflects her enthusiastic, expressive personality and we constantly refer to her tail as being voice activated!

I'm not touching the foreskin debate with a ten foot pole:act-up:


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Opera Poodle you sound like me, LOL


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