# Poodle Pedigree research



## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

Ok, I think this is where the thread would go since I would like more help researching poodle lines. I am just starting to learn about standard poodle lines, so I am here to ask for advise and help on things like:

What do you need to know when it comes to knowing the lines?

How can you tell if a line is good even if it has pet lines in it on one side or the other?

What do you do if testing info is not listed?

how do you decide if a line is a good one to bring into one you are trying to establish of your own?

Hi or Low COI, does it matter? 

more questions as I go lol, I don't want to overwhelm everyone!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Low or high COI and its importance is totally a personal thing, although I am not sure why. To me and my co-owner Trillium, it is VERY important that we keep our pups below 10%, and hopefully even below 6% I grew up in Standards, and when I look back into PHR and see the COI's of the dogs I grew up with, I am not surprised most of them did not live past ten. High Crowns Wayward Girl, who I posted a thread on, had a COI of 32.6%!!! She developed oral cancer and was dead at nine or ten. The higher the number, the more chance of linebreeding and inbreeding, which in my eyes means more risk of diseases. Nobody will convince me otherwise.

There are lots of diamonds in the rough. So just because there are pet lines in the background does not mean you cannot get an incredible puppy out of those breedings. The best research to start with is health. Have a look at what is going on in the backgrounds. Is there health testing, or on Poodle Health Registry is it just saying "sibling of fair" "parent of good"...all that means is someone else tested THEIR dog, NOT that the dog in question has had any testing. If the health is good, then you move on to the next step, which, if you want to show may be, are there lots of champions back there...

I suggest you go to the Poodle health registry and bring up dogs who turn your crank. Have a look at their vertical pedigree and get a feel for doing health research. If you have questions about how to use it, fire away. It is overwhelming at first, but you will catch on!!

Because I am breeding a colour with such a small gene pool, I usually go to Poodlepedigree first, bring up a 5 gen pedigree, then bring up a colour pedigree. If there is something there I like, I then go to PHR and check the vertical pedigree. Usually I have made a decision before I even get to PHR, but is it ever nice to have all of these tools to help decide what lines I am interested in and which ones I will avoid like the plague.


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

[

more questions as I go lol, I don't want to overwhelm everyone![/QUOTE]

LOL... you already have!!! 

You may not like all that I'm going to say, but it's all things to consider.

What do you need to know? Or what do you need to do? 

Spend hours and hours and hours reading and studying and talking... attending shows and visiting with breeders and handlers... read posts from poodle groups... it goes on and on. You should try to find someone to mentor you as well.

I see that you mentioned 'bring into one you are trying to establish' which means you are looking to breed. That's a whole 'nutter angle. You will have to be prepared to purchase something of top quality, be a co-owner, show and finish him or her, complete health tests, etc ... before you will be 'allowed' to breed. If you are talking standard size... are you prepared to spend between 10 and 15 grand to do all this?

Start with www.phrdatabase.com 
Attend as many dog shows as you can, observe and try to talk with people around you. 
Go to ebay and find neat old poodle books and read those... read books on poodle health as well.
If you are searching for test results, you may not find them so you contact the owner for them.

This is a hobby, very enjoyable but also time consuming. It's rare anyone makes money with their hobby so be sure you are well equipted to afford it.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!  
Karen


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

As ususal Karen you are right lots of time and hours and hours looking at pedigrees Sign up with AKC get an account Buy the AKC certified pedigree as this cannot be changed. I has been pointed out on this forum that folks can go in and change information in Poodle Pedigree. Use it as a tool but not the bible PHR is a GREAT resource .. Another tool......So once you make a decision on a line or a dog Go to AKC and buy the pedigree.......Akc is a huge stud dog registry so to speak. Dogs shows are on of the best ways, networking with the folks just like you !


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

I do intend to breed, but I am not going to be competing in conformation events any time soon, I am focusing on obedience, rally, agility service dogs...stuff like that, I did conformation with 2 toys I had, and found it is NOT something I enjoy at all. If I do get a nice pup I will be sending it to a Pro Handler because I really do not like the ring and it showed in my toys when they did not show as well for me as for a Handler. 

I do know the money involved and I am prepared for it, since I am not looking to be a bigtime conformation breeder I am not looking at the cost of handling show coat care ect. I have thought about this alot, and maybe since I am not focusing on Conformation, I don't need to know all the lines like someone who is I am not sure, that is why I am here. To learn, hopefully learn enough that maybe someday YEARS from now, I may want to try the ring again, but not anytime soon.

Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for conformation breeders and I WILL have the testing done on my animals, I have already started Kiara's and she sill not be bred until it is complete, I will not be irrisponsible in this and that is why I am looking for answers from more experianced people then me and look forward to learning more.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Keep in mind proper conformation is important no matter what you do .. Even more so in a performance dog. They need to be properly built to be able to do the job


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> Keep in mind proper conformation is important no matter what you do .. Even more so in a performance dog. They need to be properly built to be able to do the job


Well said BRP


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Keep in mind too, that not all puppies born to champion parents are fabulous, and not all puppies born to non champion parents are not fabulous. Sometimes two particular dogs put together create magic, and everything falls into place beautifully. So researching, studying health lines on PHR and looking at photos of offspring of any two parents will give you a great place to start.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

Absolutely! I agree that a structurally sound dog is VERY important and I will be trying to make sure my pups are as sound as possible. What I meant was that Conformation in the ring is not what my competative goal is.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

A lot of folks are not into conformation shows, and that is up to the individual and there is no crime in that. But you do want to be looking for as structurally correct a dog as possible to get great results no matter what avenue you choose. It sounds like you already know that!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

passion4poodles said:


> Absolutely! I agree that a structurally sound dog is VERY important and I will be trying to make sure my pups are as sound as possible. What I meant was that Conformation in the ring is not what my competative goal is.


Excellent ! The best place to study conformation is a dogs show. Watching for correct movement and seeing what others think This is where I learned and studied with some of the top sporting dog judges.. So I think what everyone is trying to say that even though you are not competing per sey if the dog shows are close enough to you take a chair and do some studying.


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

Oh sorry... I misunderstood as I thought earlier you had made a comment that one side of Kiara's pedigree was from 'pet lines', with an unhappy look. Maybe I was wrong but I took that as you wanted to seek out something better than that, meaning show lines.
(Not saying pets are bad! lol! I have wonderful 'pets' that produced fabulous but my goal was always to better the breed, in everyway! It's taken me many years, generations, work and expense to achieve... It was not the easy way but I can take a lot of pride in the results.)

You are right, learn all you can... and set your goals.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

Thanks guys! Movement is something that I will be keeping an eye on, as well as angles, but is it AS important to learn lines and all that if I am not focusing on Conformation lines as opposed to performance?


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

Focus on health and temperament first. 
Not easy... health can change day by day.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Keep in mind proper conformation is important no matter what you do .. Even more so in a performance dog. They need to be properly built to be able to do the job


Yes but go and read the link roxy posted comparing the agility poodles to the border collie and you will see that the number poodle dog that wins in agility would NEVER win in conformation. This brings up the question of why there are "field" animals and "bench" or conformation animals? There is a difference because there is a need for a certain structure to actually work verses what is acceptable in the conformation ring and that is beauty. Some try to achieve both and I commend them for that but often times it's about winning so they go with the trend and do what it takes to get that Ch. title.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

You are at a distinct disadvantage because you are in Hawaii where you can not see a variety of lines in person. For me, researching lines is often about learning about type. e.g. The Unique dogs are different than the Donchada dogs who are different from the Litilann dogs. 

The differences in lines are not just physical, they also deal with temperament and working style. There are some lines I will not breed into because I don't like the temperaments they throw.

Finally, when researching lines, it is important to look at the health of the lines. You can research on Poodle Health Registry, but is grossly incomplete. Mostly, with time, you pick up bits and pieces of information that give you a more complete view of a line. I know which lines tend to Bloat or have issues with allergies or Epilepsy etc.

If you want to concentrate on performance dogs, you should start by searching Poodle Pedigree using CH and performance titles as parameters. This will at least give you a heads up about which lines tend to throw good looking dogs who like to work. I always think it is a bunch of baloney that there are breeders out there who say that they don't breed for show but only for performance. This seems like a cop out that let's people just breed ugly dogs who don't conform to standard.

A note of warning for anyone wanting to breed performance dogs. Good performance dogs need medium to high drive. This is often too much for pet homes who just want a fuzzy thing to lie on the rug. If you are wanting to breed performance dogs, you first need to go out and title a couple of Poodles yourself in Obedience or Agility so that you understand training techniques and working styles. If you can't train/handle a high drive dog yourself, you can't expect your buyers to handle them.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Yes but go and read the link roxy posted comparing the agility poodles to the border collie and you will see that the number poodle dog that wins in agility would NEVER win in conformation. This brings up the question of why there are "field" animals and "bench" or conformation animals? There is a difference because there is a need for a certain structure to actually work verses what is acceptable in the conformation ring and that is beauty. Some try to achieve both and I commend them for that but often times it's about winning so they go with the trend and do what it takes to get that Ch. title.


There is an ENORMOUS difference in Setters Almost like a diferent breed Coat is much shorter in the field dog than the show dog. Conformation is way different I agree that lots of show folks lose sight of what is important , however it is important to learn that difference . Try and adhere to the standard as much as possible..


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> I agree that lots of show folks lose sight of what is important ,


This is true for a lot of breeds unfortunately.

As for the link I posted for the agility conformation. Kspoo If you read it again the show dog did have a great structure it was just the rear was over angulated. If you take the number 1 agility poodles rear and put it on the show dog it would equal a great dog IMO. The agility dogs rear was to standard.

I think poodles are lucky to not have such a difference between working and showing.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I always think it is a bunch of baloney that there are breeders out there who say that they don't breed for show but only for performance. This seems like a cop out that let's people just breed ugly dogs who don't conform to standard.


Great advise on the background checks thank you. I would be one of those breeders who is breeding for performance and not show, but that does not mean I would want to breed a dog that was not within the standard. I know it is only your opinion, but bulking it together like that sort of makes it sound like anyone who says it is no better then a BYB.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Yes but go and read the link roxy posted comparing the agility poodles to the border collie and you will see that the number poodle dog that wins in agility would NEVER win in conformation.


I tried to find this post and had no luck, where is it, I would really like to see it.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

desertreef said:


> Focus on health and temperament first.
> Not easy... health can change day by day.


Thank you, Health, temperament and structure are the top focus.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

cbrand said:


> A note of warning for anyone wanting to breed performance dogs. Good performance dogs need medium to high drive.


I don't totally agree with you on this one sorry, my tynkerell is actually VERY laid back and she loves to cuddle and does not have a high drive as far as being hyper, she has a high drive to want to please ME. I believe a dog can have a high drive to please without being hyper to the point that they could not be handled by a lamen. Just my opinion.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

passion4poodles said:


> I don't totally agree with you on this one sorry, my tynkerell is actually VERY laid back and she loves to cuddle and does not have a high drive as far as being hyper, she has a high drive to want to please ME. I believe a dog can have a high drive to please without being hyper to the point that they could not be handled by a lamen. Just my opinion.


What cbrand is saying is very true , Your girl probably has an average drive. Which is fine IMO, but the dogs that are top performance dogs usually have High drives. 

High drive dogs need a lot of mental stimulation and exercise. A normal family who wont provide these things will have an out of control dog. This is what she means, it is true because this is why "pit bulls" are in the shelters lol

A real working GSDs are not own by normal familys , usually owned by people who work them and put titles on them. I would never recommend a working GSD for an average family. Same goes for a border collie I would never recommend one for a average family not unless they are willing to actually exercise the dogs for 2hrs or more and train them daily.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

passion4poodles said:


> I tried to find this post and had no luck, where is it, I would really like to see it.


http://www.ippgazette.com/Issues/V3-...ationStudy.htm

here is thread 
http://www.poodleforum.com/showthread.php?t=3072&highlight=agility


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

passion4poodles said:


> I don't totally agree with you on this one sorry, my tynkerell is actually VERY laid back and she loves to cuddle and does not have a high drive as far as being hyper, she has a high drive to want to please ME. I believe a dog can have a high drive to please without being hyper to the point that they could not be handled by a lamen. Just my opinion.


What performance titles does Tynkerell have?


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

She has none at this time. I was simply using her as an example for drive to please as apposed to being hyper and out of control that is all.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

passion4poodles said:


> I know it is only your opinion, but bulking it together like that sort of makes it sound like anyone who says it is no better then a BYB.


That's because it is the standard sales pitch for a BYB. I can't tell you how many web sites I've seen selling puppies where the "breeder" says that they breed for Obedience, Agility, Therapy when they have not put a single title on their own dogs.

People interested in breeding for performance should spend some time competing in the different sports. That way, they will know what they like and don't like in a working dog.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> What cbrand is saying is very true , Your girl probably has an average drive. Which is fine IMO, but the dogs that are top performance dogs usually have High drives.
> 
> High drive dogs need a lot of mental stimulation and exercise. A normal family who wont provide these things will have an out of control dog. This is what she means, it is true because this is why "pit bulls" are in the shelters lol
> 
> A real working GSDs are not own by normal familys , usually owned by people who work them and put titles on them. I would never recommend a working GSD for an average family. Same goes for a border collie I would never recommend one for a average family not unless they are willing to actually exercise the dogs for 2hrs or more and train them daily.


Ok, this is what I am here to learn from all of you, is part of the researching lines trying to "predict" temperment? Wouldn't I be able to find say just for example, I find a dog that does well both in obediance and agility, but also has and average drive to breed and have a better chance of having offspring that have the mellow but high drive to please attitude?


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

cbrand said:


> That's because it is the standard sales pitch for a BYB. I can't tell you how many web sites I've seen selling puppies where the "breeder" says that they breed for Obedience, Agility, Therapy when they have not put a single title on their own dogs.
> 
> People interested in breeding for performance should spend some time competing in the different sports. That way, they will know what they like and don't like in a working dog.


Agreed, but that is what I am working towards, and I will be saying that I am breeding for those things but I will not be a BYB. Kiara has finished her second level of obedience and is getting ready to start her agility training, sadly I am in a cast right now and can not run the field with her, so it will have to wait, but we are still doing the things we can while I wait for my ankle to heal. I will be breeding quality pups when I do finally breed and I guess I was just a little taken back that it was grouped together. I agree though that alot of BYB's to advertise that way, but so do some reputable breeders I have seen while looking for the right dog.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

passion4poodles said:


> that have the mellow but high drive to please attitude?


I am not sure if mellow and high drive should be in the same sentence lol 

What I am about to say is my experience with real working dogs that where not poodles. I Think Enzo has a medium to high drive temperament, but since my sister and I are used to raising GSDs and Rottweilers we are not softies on our dogs so Enzo does not get away with things. 

I honestly believe if I gave him to an average family he would act out of control with them. He is mellow in the home because I trained him. He needs about 2 hrs of exercise !( but i am guilty of not even giving that to him daily ) 

A working dog with high drive needs lots of exercise and a backyard is not going to cut it. They are mellow inside the house and when training will please and listen, but this takes daily training and understanding what your dogs needs. Usually High drive dogs who are not trained and not getting exercise will literally Destroy your house and have many behavior issues. 

My gsd I had would patrol our home all day and night ! She had a high drive always out side keeping watch of whats going on. She could clear a 8ft fence easily. I would train her daily ( DAILY lol) and walk and play with her for hrs of a day ( when I was in HS so I had time) This is why some of these high drive dogs are not good for average familes. Most people have kids and jobs and can't spend all of this time with a dog like I used to do when i was younger. Even now That I am older I would never think about getting a gsd until i had my own house and time to train it and give the dog what it needs. Same with a pit bull ( my fav breed) but I would get one until i can comitt to the time that needs to be spend with one. 

With all breeds you can find pedigrees and dog with certain and different levels of drive to what you are looking for. I would certainly not say a high drive dog is mellow. Border collies are far from mellow but when trained they are very good at what they do. Same with Belgian malinois . 

English Bulldogs are mellow, Greyhounds are mellow, bloodhounds, st.bernards, chow chows etc...... ( typical for these breeds )


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

passion4poodles said:


> Agreed, but that is what I am working towards, and I will be saying that I am breeding for those things but I will not be a BYB. Kiara has finished her second level of obedience and is getting ready to start her agility training, sadly I am in a cast right now and can not run the field with her, so it will have to wait, but we are still doing the things we can while I wait for my ankle to heal. I will be breeding quality pups when I do finally breed and I guess I was just a little taken back that it was grouped together. I agree though that alot of BYB's to advertise that way, but so do some reputable breeders I have seen while looking for the right dog.


So now that Kiara has completed her second level class, you should start preparing her to show in obedience. Why not take her out and show her in Novice A? Once you start showing in Obedience you will see what type of temperament and drive it takes to have a successful Obedience dog. 

It isn't hard. I got Izze and Gracy's CD's in three shows.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

cbrand said:


> So now that Kiara has completed her second level class, you should start preparing her to show in obedience. Why not take her out and show her in Novice A? Once you start showing in Obedience you will see what type of temperament and drive it takes to have a successful Obedience dog.
> 
> It isn't hard. I got Izze and Gracy's CD's in three shows.


Ya, as soon as the cast is off my foot lol, I have a hard time just walking right now lol. As soon as I am able to I am going to start her on her agility classes and try to get her Rally Novice but I have to heal first. I intend on getting tynk in the field as well, even with her being spayed, I want to take her just for fun. 

Roxy, I think my version of high drive to please is not the same as yours, Tynk would do anything I asked her to do and she is the dog who when you are holding a treat, will go through every trick you have ever taught her just to get the right one so she gets the treat lol. She learns quick, but she is calm as calm can be when she is not being worked with. That is what I am saying.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

passion4poodles said:


> Roxy, I think my version of high drive to please is not the same as yours, Tynk would do anything I asked her to do and she is the dog who when you are holding a treat, will go through every trick you have ever taught her just to get the right one so she gets the treat lol. She learns quick, but she is calm as calm can be when she is not being worked with. That is what I am saying.


there is only one version of high drive this is why i said, I don't think your girl has a high drive. She probably has an average poodle drive. 

She seems very food motivated and high drive and food motivation are not the same thing. 

You can have a HIGHLY food motivated bulldog but no drive at all.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

I want to make sure I am breeding temperments that can be placed in "normal" families as well, so should I say I am breeding for obedience and rally with a chance of conformation lol!


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

I found that this comparison from a lab breeder was quite good in describing a hobby breeder versus a BYB.
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/comparison.html


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Would drive and eager to please (which is part of being a poodle) be the same thing? There are dogs with different "drives." Some have a drive to protect, some hunt, some please their owners, some to work and have a job herding animals. I think you are giving a word too broad of a definition. Narrow down what you want in temperaments and then focus on that.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

thestars said:


> I found that this comparison from a lab breeder was quite good in describing a hobby breeder versus a BYB.
> http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/comparison.html


Thank you, this lists a hobby breeder, but I have see other places they are clumped into the same catagory, a "hobby breeder is a BYB" according to others I have spoke with. I WILL be testing, I WILL be competing, I WILL NOT breed to a non tested dog, or a dog that is effected. I WILL be a responsible breeder and I know this because I started out thinking I was and learned that there was NO way I could be if I bred my first poodle, Tynk, I got her spayed and educated myself. There are still things I need to learn, but that is everyone. I will NOT be showing conformation as it is not something I enjoy, I have experianced it and found myself wanting, I had a very bad experiance with a "breeder" and eventually MAYBE I will place one of mine with a Pro Handler, but will NOT go into the ring myself. For now I WILL be breeding for health temperment and proformance in Rally Agility Obediance ect keeping in mind the STANDARD. This clears alot up and from now on I will not be taken aback by someone referancing a BYB as I know I will NOT be one. Thank you TheStars!



KPoos said:


> Would drive and eager to please (which is part of being a poodle) be the same thing? There are dogs with different "drives." Some have a drive to protect, some hunt, some please their owners, some to work and have a job herding animals. I think you are giving a word too broad of a definition. Narrow down what you want in temperaments and then focus on that.


Drive and eager to please are one in the same for me, maybe I misjudged how others view the meanings and I am sorry.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

yes, eager to please is different to drive. In general most dogs are eager to please, the more 'people oriented' dogs are more eager to please. Poodles LOVE their people, and they love to please their people! As a general rule, most poodles will be very eager to please, they are trainable and great dogs to have around. They will probably do fine in obedience and agility and anything else you throw at them.
That is not the same as a high drive dog. 

A high drive dog with the right training will _excel_ at anything you throw at it; not just 'do pretty good'. 

If you are wanting to breed specifically/primarily for competition dogs, then you are going to want to breed for high drive dogs. Join some agility and obedience forums to see what exactly the top trainers and owners want from a top obedience and agility dog. Yes of course they want a dog who is eager to please, but they all want a high drive too. 

No decent trainer who is dead keen on competing and winning in agility will go and buy an average puppy for their next prospect, they will select a pup that is a little demon! haha! And with the right training that dog will grow to be a blur as it zaps around a course winning everything! lol! 

If you are breeding average eager-to-please happy poodles, who will also go nicely in the competition ring, then IMO you are not really breeding FOR the competition ring, you are breeding for nice pets who will compete as well as any other well bred poodle will. 


I am NOT saying that your poodle/s won't win in obedience and agility etc though! Of course if they are trained to, they will do good! Almost any poodle has the brains and temperament to do well in the dog sport world. They're not like trying to train a basset hound or something, so yes they will do well I'm sure. But (IMO!) unless you research what competitors are looking for when they want another pup to compete with, and then meet that need with your breeding program, you can't be breeding FOR competition dogs.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

flyingduster said:


> yes, eager to please is different to drive. In general most dogs are eager to please, the more 'people oriented' dogs are more eager to please. Poodles LOVE their people, and they love to please their people! As a general rule, most poodles will be very eager to please, they are trainable and great dogs to have around. They will probably do fine in obedience and agility and anything else you throw at them.
> That is not the same as a high drive dog.
> 
> A high drive dog with the right training will _excel_ at anything you throw at it; not just 'do pretty good'.
> ...



Thanks flyingduster I am glad someone else chimed in on what I was explaining.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

Thank you for explaining, frostfire explained that I was being confusing on my thoughts on what a high drive was as well lol, I do mean an eager to please not a high drive. I guess at the risk of being labeled a BYB, I will be breeding for 

"If you are breeding average eager-to-please happy poodles, who will also go nicely in the competition ring, then IMO you are not really breeding FOR the competition ring, you are breeding for nice pets who will compete as well as any other well bred poodle will."



Of course they will be well tested and I will do everything I can in order to keep then within breed standard as well as temperment tested ect.... I guess I just never considered breeding for anything other then Conformation would could/would be labeled BYB....if that makes sense lol, I DON'T want to be labeled as one since I am trying to do everything right.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

I am curious as to _exactly_ what you would be aiming for when breeding? Obviously by breeding you are wanting to create the "perfect" dog. Absolutely no little bits you'd tweak about their look or temperament etc. Every breeder should have an image of a totally perfect dog in their head, and be aiming for that with every breeding, improving something to move towards their idea of perfection (of course it is always subjective, my idea of a perfect spoo is not be the same as another! But the whole idea of breeding yourself, is to use your OWN vision!)

So what is your perfect spoo? You say "I am focusing on obedience, rally, agility service dogs...stuff like that" but IMO that sounds like pretty much any well bred poodle litter can accommodate most of those things, and more (because they are also breeding for confirmation. I am assuming health testing etc is a given for you and the 'any well bred poodle litter'). What _exactly_ are you aiming for, when improving on what you have??

I am not wanting you to answer the questions really, I'm just asking to make sure YOU know your answers. If you don't know _exactly_ what you are wanting to improve in each generation as it comes along, then how can you really be breeding up a nice line? If you don't have a CLEAR goal for what you want out of YOUR poodles, then why does the world need another poodle breeder? What is it exactly that you are contributing to the poodle world?

Like I said, you don't need to answer the questions if you don't want to, they are rhetorical really, but if you can't have a clear idea of it all, then you may be hard pressed when someone does ask you and expects an answer!




I am saying this to any and all breeders too, not just you!! I am not suggesting you are being BYB-like or anything either, nor am I trying to pick on you or anything, just brining up things I think of that, IMO, are worth thinking of.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

flyingduster said:


> I am curious as to _exactly_ what you would be aiming for when breeding? Obviously by breeding you are wanting to create the "perfect" dog. Absolutely no little bits you'd tweak about their look or temperament etc. Every breeder should have an image of a totally perfect dog in their head, and be aiming for that with every breeding, improving something to move towards their idea of perfection (of course it is always subjective, my idea of a perfect spoo is not be the same as another! But the whole idea of breeding yourself, is to use your OWN vision!)
> 
> So what is your perfect spoo? You say "I am focusing on obedience, rally, agility service dogs...stuff like that" but IMO that sounds like pretty much any well bred poodle litter can accommodate most of those things, and more (because they are also breeding for confirmation. I am assuming health testing etc is a given for you and the 'any well bred poodle litter'). What _exactly_ are you aiming for, when improving on what you have??
> 
> ...


I do know what you are asking and I understand why you ask. I do have an idea in my head of what my goal is, but I do not know what I am wanting to improve with each generation besides sound health and temperment as I have not had any litters yet. I want to make sure all testing is done first and that I know I am ready to have a litter. I will have to decide what I would like to improve on after I have my first litter, I know what charactoristics I would like to improve on in Kiara's build. Her tail set could be a little better, her neck could be a little longer...her ears I LOVE, the leather is nice and long and it gives a fuller look to her ears. She has a very nice coat, but it could be a little more coarse, her bite is great ect ect I could go on and try to pick apart everything, but I just wanted to give some examples lol. I want to make sure that with each generartion I am producing that the health problems that dominate this breed and variaty is reduced a little, I know my litters are not going to solve the problem, but I know I will be doing my part to improve the overall health of the breed by NOT breeding effected dogs that do not meet breed standard. Whew! LOL! I know you did not expect an answer and now you got a long one. I am glad you asked though, It will keep me on my toes and keep me always thinking about the ultimate goal, to improve this wonderful breed!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

This is going to sound so PETA but what's the purpose of breeding if you aren't even going to keep anything for yourself? Do you have a limit of how many dogs you can comfortably keep and socialize and train for the things you want to do? I mean there are a TON of breeders out there and many of them are populating the pet world just fine so why breed? Why contribute the abundance of pet dogs that are already there? Is it because you want to breed a pet that has had health testing done? There are a lot of breeders that do health testing already to provide puppies for those looking.

I'm not saying do not breed, just ask yourself what your long term goal is if you have one. If it's to get something to keep for yourself then I say go for it and breed up and make sure you are prepared to take in puppies as adults later on if something happens.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

KPoos I do intend to keep one out of Kiara, IF I she has one that I really like, I will not take it into the conformation ring like I said BEFORE, I will keep it and have a handler take it to the ring. Kiara will not be bred any more then 3-4 times in her lifetime. I know how may I can handle at once, thank you for your concern.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

3-4 times (maximum, I realise this) and you intend to keep one pup? Ok, so you want to breed one litter to get a really nice pup for yourself to possibly carry on with, I can understand that. You pick a sire to match your girl and hopefully produce a great mix that your pup will be one of. The rest of the 6-10 babies will also hopefully be nice dogs and go to good homes; well done.

Why would you breed her again? I would breed her again if I wanted another pup from her. Or perhaps if I wanted to prove my dog and my breeding as being great, or with a different sire it might be better. 

In either case the first litter had to be pretty darn good to give reason to do a second one, _especially_ if you weren't wanting something specific out of the litter yourself. The homes would all have to be geared towards what you are trying to become known for breeding (ie if you were trying to breed a nice line of performance spoos, the homes should all be performance homes). Why? Because then your pups can all go into the field you're wanting them to be bred for, to be able to prove themselves for YOU and prove your breeding is going in the right direction (or not!)


Breed a third time and I'm becoming suspicious. I (personally) would really only condone a third breeding if the first two were *amazing* and/or something happened to the pup you kept in the first place, or perhaps you really wanted another pup to keep on. Breeding a 3rd litter just to send them all out to pet homes is going to start leaning over to the BYB trend. 

Same goes for a 4th litter. It'd have to be seriously good reasoning to do a 4th, there aren't many I'd condone to that at all... But perhaps that's just me, and 3-4 litters is ok by others standards.


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