# Socialization is important! (mild vent)



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I know your main purpose in posting was to vent, but it is a good reminder about the importance of exposing puppies to everything you can think to show them to in safe fun ways that engage their curiosity about the world.

I really want to know though about the snail story!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Amen! It makes me so angry that none of my rescued dogs got socialized and therefore suffered (or in Zooey's case, are suffering) from it for the rest of their lives. What a world of difference socialization makes in a dog's life. I still think how amazing it was that my dad and I could take Maizie and Fiona to the canine walk with 850 dogs there of all breeds and temperaments, and they were so secure with themselves and perfectly behaved. 

Cleo is still young, so with lots of training, I'm sure you will help her to lead a nice, low-stress life. 

BTW, even my well-socialized girl spooks at some of the same things as Cleo--especially trash bags!


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> I know your main purpose in posting was to vent, but it is a good reminder about the importance of exposing puppies to everything you can think to show them to in safe fun ways that engage their curiosity about the world.
> 
> I really want to know though about the snail story!


I hadn't thought about the importance of things like cleaning and rearranging furniture around a puppy until I saw how unsettled Cleo is by cleaning tools or things being moved around. There are just so many small things you don't think of!

As for the snail story, we were out for a walk after it had rained, and she encountered a snail shell on the sidewalk. She stopped dead in her tracks, stared at it, then very slowly approached. Just as she got close enough for a good sniff, the snail's head started to come out and Cleo JUMPED, then ran several paces backward and and started trying to pull me away on the leash. Now she gives them all a wide berth, like they secretly hide weird-smelling bombs or something. There was one day she was really reluctant to come back inside from a walk and I couldn't figure out why, until I noticed a snail stuck to our front door. :alberteinstein: Anyway, she'll walk past them, but she's VERY suspicious about it.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

https://berkeleyhumane.org/files/galleries/CriticalFear.pdf

In case anyone is curious

liasgirl, I know what you are going through so I am sending you a virtual hug. I am on the other side of it with Pia


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

zooeysmom said:


> Amen! It makes me so angry that none of my rescued dogs got socialized and therefore suffered (or in Zooey's case, are suffering) from it for the rest of their lives. What a world of difference socialization makes in a dog's life. I still think how amazing it was that my dad and I could take Maizie and Fiona to the canine walk with 850 dogs there of all breeds and temperaments, and they were so secure with themselves and perfectly behaved.
> 
> Cleo is still young, so with lots of training, I'm sure you will help her to lead a nice, low-stress life.
> 
> BTW, even my well-socialized girl spooks at some of the same things as Cleo--especially trash bags!


I really lucked out with Archie - either he had a phenomenal puppyhood or he just came this way somehow, because he's really not scared of anything. It does make me sad for Cleo, because you can see that she's naturally very curious and playful, and I think if she'd had a better start she'd be just like him in terms of tackling new things with interest and gusto instead of nervousness and fear. She does bounce back quickly, though, and in some cases she's already eliminated some fears that she had at first. Our popcorn popper is a good example - it's a noisy air-popper that tends to spill popcorn kernels onto the floor when it's popping. She's learned if she hangs out right next to it while it's going, she can randomly sneak some popcorn even if I won't give it to her later. So now the popcorn popper is the best thing ever. It's like a naturally perfect counter-conditioning tool.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks for telling the snail story. I could see how that would be a startling experience to have an apparently inanimate object come to life like that.

twyla I looked at the link you provided and I beg to disagree about the puppy fear period. At one of the seminars I took with Ian Dunbar he spoke at some length about the original study done about this idea of the fear period. I can't find a link to his views on the study just now, but it was clear to me that the study was very flawed and rather unscientific using a very small number of puppies and a totally alien setting with people dressed in lab coats that were previously unknown to the puppies. I am not devaluing the very important principle that exposing puppies to many new things is very important, just the idea that you "have to walk on eggshells" around puppies during those hypothetical fear periods. In fact I rather think that those times we think of as fear periods are important windows during which we can make sure to show new things to puppies in well planned activities that will build their confidence rather than making them collapse into socially inept neurotic messes.

Wouldn't it be great if we lived in a world where all dog owners understood this. Then Cleo and Zooey would have stayed with their original families and lived happy, fulfilling lives. I have tons of respect for those of you who are patiently helping these dogs by bringing them into your families, "warts and all."


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Catherine thanks I do agree with you, there are several more studies about fear periods in growing puppies I read many, although I don't believe in walking on eggshells for fear of fear imprinting your dog. 

My mini Fannie was a neurotic mess, it took me along time to get her over her fears and she was 8yrs old when I brought her home. You name it she was afraid of it.

I do believe that knowing that there are fear periods is just another angle on understanding a fearful dog, that some dogs tend to be more fearful during these stages and knowing that helps in the whole exposure to new things, new situations and socialization. My experience with Fannie helped immeasurably with my training of Pia.


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## TeamPoodle (Aug 10, 2015)

lisasgirl, I'm with you. At home, Riley is the sweetest, happiest dog, who thinks life is amazing. I bring him out somewhere (or have someone over) and suddenly I have a dog who is unsure of himself, nervous, and lacks confidence... like every new place is bound to be bad. 

I try not to speculate on his previous life because it does no one any good. But oftentimes, I get so mad. If his previous owner had taken the time to socialize him and show him that the big world is a cool and fabulous place, how much happier he would be. He has the sweetest personality and totally can tell if I need extra cuddles - wouldn't that make him the best therapy dog ever?! Well, no, because he is scared of strangers and doesn't want them to pet him. 

I promise you, it DOES get better. We turn every scary thing into a game, or take extra time for him to get used to it and not be scared. It is time-consuming, and sometimes feels never-ending, but now there are things that were scary that are now fun. We have a lint roller on a broomstick so that we can lint roll our carpets (for my hair, funny enough, so Riley doesn't end up eating it while playing on the carpets. My husband asks why we bothered getting a non-shedding dog when his wife sheds so much?!). Well, Riley used to be scared of it. Now, anytime we lint roll, he pounces after it and play barks. 

Cleo at 6 months is in a good position to get loads better. Keep up the good work and vent anytime you need to!


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## PoodleFoster (May 25, 2013)

HELLO MODERATORS
THIS is exactly why we could use a FOSTER forum, so that we can help and learn from these kinds of experiences.
THANK YOU

LISASGIRL, keep at your poodle! More exposure can only help desensitize Cleo. Rescue dogs can be very challenging and there is a certain mystery about every dog.
GOOD LUCK, you're doing a great job!


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Sympathy and encouragement for all you're doing with Cleo, Lisasgirl. My last dog came to me at about 13 weeks of age from a great breeder, and we spent that fall and winter in as many kinds of socialization and new experiences as possible, and I was fortunate between the great breeding behind her and managing positive new experiences that she was rock solid her entire life.

Stepping forward into the present, Oliver was four years when I got him from his first family. No idea what socialization he'd had, but definitely he'd had some good experiences. However, he wanted to dive at passing cars, dive at skateboards, and was first scared around heavy road equipment.

We got through and over the car diving quickly, thank heavens. Skateboards are still an issue because I'm not acquainted with any people who have them although they are all around us, and often they come up quickly behind us on the sidewalks. I'm going to start asking people carrying skateboards to say hi to Oliver and maybe give him a treat while holding the boards, then try to work up to them standing on the boards while treating him if I can find congenial young men with a couple minutes to give from time to time.

The heavy equipment like front end loaders, bulldozers, etc. was simplified because they were doing road work in my neighborhood for a while, and in the evenings with the equipment shut down, Oliver could take his time to approach and sniff and get praise. So he's pretty good there, now. I'm not sure how much temperament figured in his breeding, but suspect to some extent it was in there.

Wish I could skateboard but am sure it would be the death of me. Many good wishes and confidence from us that Cleo will in time enjoy her world tremendously!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

To be honest, all of my poodles have always been exactly who they are on they day that I got them - Yes, I have been able to make slight modifications, but the best thing that I have done to insure a good outcome is to find a trustworthy breeder and to grow to understand all of the qualities in a puppy that indicate that they will grow to be a fine dog who is great at the city lifestyle. Hence Timi!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Socialization - Tonka has no problem wading out into salt water. He grew up near the ocean. That fresh water in our lake is some scary stuff tho. He won't go near it! :afraid: lol


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Lisasgirl, you're doing a great job with Cleo! She's lucky she has you. 

YES, it's IMPERATIVE for dog owners to socialize their dog! They will have a more well adjusted and happy dog because of it. I have to be honest and say that I've never had a dog who was not socialized. I got all of mine as puppies, and I made sure right away that they were around other dogs and people. But then I've never rescued a dog that was caged up for many months of its life. One thing that I see that is positive from your situation is, at least Cloe is still so young. I honestly believe she will get better in time, especially with you being there to help her.

Many good thoughts for you and Cloe, and keep up the good work! {{hugs}}


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Found a new one! Familiar people wearing hats. She's not afraid of strangers who are wearing hats, but when my husband put one on she did her Bad Guy Bark and then ran and hid under the bed until he took it off. He had to leave for some errands so I stuck around to do some work with her - holding the hat and tossing treats, then putting the hat on and tossing treats, etc. You could see she was still suspicious of it but her love of treats got her to at least stick around and think about it.

"People in hats" is always on all the socialization lists but I never gave it much thought until I saw her freak out when I put one on. I'm not sure what she thought that hat was doing to me but she did not like it! I immediately sent a text to my sister advising her to wear hats around her new puppy when he comes home. 

Also, I'm putting in a plug for the Thunder Shirt if anybody out there has a fearful dog. It didn't do much for Archie when he was afraid during car rides, but it's like magic on Cleo. She's come back to work with me after a little hiatus, and the second I put that Thundershirt on her she just relaxes and goes to lie down on her bed. Hardly a peep out of her all day, even when the big warehouse guys (who used to get her Bad Guy Bark like nothing else) come around to visit.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> Socialization - Tonka has no problem wading out into salt water. He grew up near the ocean. That fresh water in our lake is some scary stuff tho. He won't go near it! :afraid: lol


Haha, this is exactly it!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

lisasgirl said:


> Found a new one! Familiar people wearing hats. She's not afraid of strangers who are wearing hats, but when my husband put one on she did her Bad Guy Bark and then ran and hid under the bed until he took it off. He had to leave for some errands so I stuck around to do some work with her - holding the hat and tossing treats, then putting the hat on and tossing treats, etc. You could see she was still suspicious of it but her love of treats got her to at least stick around and think about it.


I love the weird dogs. They fascinate me. 

Strangely enuf, all the weird dogs at the park love me too it seems. lol

'Cos once you start to recognise that for every weird reaction they have, there HAS to be a trigger. Sometimes pretty hard to spot, but it's there. They don't usually spook for nothing. So you get to look around, listen around, put on your Deerstalker, cogitate over a pipe or two. Don't overlook scent... a passing '**** with the screen door open at nite??? 

Find the trigger, get them comfortable around it, then move on. Soooo rewarding.  

Good to know abt Thundershirts. That they work on some dogs, but not on all.


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## janet6567 (Mar 11, 2014)

Poor little Cleo is fortunate to have been adopted by you and your husband. Hopefully she'll get over her fears and have a happy life. I admire your patience with her.


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## PoodleFoster (May 25, 2013)

lisasgirl said:


> Found a new one! Familiar people wearing hats.
> 
> Also, I'm putting in a plug for the Thunder Shirt if anybody out there has a fearful dog.
> 
> ...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Aside from a thunder shirt, I also like rescue remedy given in anticipation of working on things you know are hard for the dog. I wouldn't give it all the time but for the example of hats I would give some rescue remedy then do the work you did with showing the hat, putting the hat on etc. about 20 minutes later. It can take some of the edge off the dog's anxiety and help to teach them what you want to convey more effectively.


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