# Theo won't go "down" without seeing a treat. Suggestions?



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Do you use a reward marker? Like a clicker or the word "Yes"? If you don't and don't know what it is, I'd be happy to explain. I think that would really help because then for almost *all* of your training, you can work with Theo with the treats in a dish on the counter or hidden in your pocket and he'll learn that treats can come at any old time, not just when they're visible! : )

If you don't want to use a reward marker (or even if you do, but find this bad habit is still lingering with "down"), here's what I suggest. First, if Theo is still not reliably doing down, I wouldn't start intermittent reinforcement. I'd wait until he goes down, properly, on your cue, nearly every time. Second, I'd suggest not requesting "all the way down" if he doesn't do it properly. Just continue to wait and watch, request a different behavior, or simply walk away. Otherwise he may be learning the cue for "down" is "down.....all the way down". : P Silly puppy! If that half-way down is very frequent, you may want to go back to basics and lure him into the down again, as if you were teaching it to him for the first time. Then gradually fade your lure into the hand signal again. And as far as getting the treat out of there, you can always try shrinking and fading it away. Offer smaller and smaller (visible) treats, and give him shorter opportunities to see/sniff it. You can always reach in your pocket and grab a normal sized treat (so he's still being rewarded the same), but this way he'll get less hooked on seeing the treat in your hand. Also, I wouldn't give him the treat he sees in your hand. I'd give him the second one you pull out of your pocket. This way he won't start to figure "That treat's too small/not my favorite/whatever. It's not worth the effort." Hahaha He'll be doing the down for the "mystery" treat! That's much more enticing!! : ) And keep treats in bowls on the counter (if that's safe - my cats steal Lumi's treats!) or in your pockets so that when he *does* do a down without seeing a treat in your hand, you can give him one! : ) Hope this helps!


----------



## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

When I was first teaching the down, when mine was a puppy, I started with bringing my closed fist, with a treat, to the floor, then opening my hand when he went down.

It's easy to transfer this to an empty fist, then treat from the other hand.

Once the dog is reliably lying down on the hand lure, add the word.

Might be worth starting over with a different word, i.e. "drop", if he's confused about the down cue.

Good luck!


----------



## all that jazz (Feb 6, 2011)

I have exactly the same problem and we are going for our Good Canine Citizen test next week and I predict he will fail it because he won't go into a down for me. He also only goes down if he sees a treat in my hand and then he tends to go down 3/4 of the way. "Oh, those crafty poodles!" I would hate to fail the test just because of a down. I started using the clicker this last week to try to blatantly reinforce it. My poodle is 10 months old.


----------



## Theo'sMom (Mar 23, 2011)

Pammi poodle,
Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions. I really like your idea of separating the treat and the hand gesture/command so he doesn't have to see the treat. I'll also try your suggestion of using very small treats, rewarding with bigger ones from the counter/dish so that he can't assume the reward is always the same or that it's always what he sees. No cats, so I don't have to worry about the treats disappearing. :act-up:
Reward marker- I do use "good down." ( or "good sit, good etc...") 

Re "all the way down" : I see what you mean - he may be training me to say "all the way down", smart boy :alien2:

Je uk - I'm going to practice palm closed facing down with treat in the other hand/ on counter etc...

Off to do some training!


----------



## Theo'sMom (Mar 23, 2011)

all that jazz said:


> I have exactly the same problem and we are going for our Good Canine Citizen test next week and I predict he will fail it because he won't go into a down for me. He also only goes down if he sees a treat in my hand and then he tends to go down 3/4 of the way. "Oh, those crafty poodles!" I would hate to fail the test just because of a down. I started using the clicker this last week to try to blatantly reinforce it. My poodle is 10 months old.


Theo is going to a cgc exam this week as practice, at the suggestion of our trainer. He won't pass, but it's a good idea to clarify what we should work on. It makes it very difficult that they don't allow treats!
I wish you and your poodle the best of luck at the exam. One week of intense clicker training might do it!


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Yay, hope it helps! : )

Just a word about reward markers; it should be a word or sound that *always* means "treat is coming!". Always. "Good" is a great word if you aren't also using it to call him a good boy, good dog, etc. It will have much less impact if he hears it that way. You don't want to use it to praise him if there is no treat involved, or he won't make the association with the word and the fact that at that very moment he's earned a treat!

I picked the word "Yes" for Lumi, since I hardly ever say it in conversation with anyone (I'm a "yea" girl! : P ). When I do accidentally say it, I throw her a treat! Hahaha Fortunately, she's always been doing a good behavior when that happens. : P 

Also, the cue words are best reserved only for asking the behavior. To ask him to "down", and then say "good down" to indicate "you've done it, now I'll reward you" is giving him two different meanings for the word "down". One says "lie down" the other means "You're free." Dogs are oh-so-smart! Especially our Poodles! But, to ask them to understand two different meanings for one word is asking for complications! : P

Good luck at the exam!! You never know - he may pass!! : )


----------



## Theo'sMom (Mar 23, 2011)

Pammi,
Thanks for this explanation about reward markers. I'm trying to understand the logic of it. So is the point is for him to associate the word like "yes" with the reward for doing the behavior in order that the reward marker can eventually be said without having to give the treat? Or is there a reward marker for a different reason? :alberteinstein:
Thanks, 
Ellen


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Nope, lemme explain. : ) 

The reward marker always means reward. Always. You can fade out the use of the reward maker as you fade out the use of the reward, but you never use the marker unless you're giving a reward. It's not a reward substitute, it's a reward marker. It means "reward is coming!"

The point of the reward marker it to have a very direct and exact form of communication when your dog does right. Imagine Theo sits on your cue and you think "Hey, this deserves a treat!", and while you're handing it to him, he gets up and walks over to you. Lots of things just happened there. He sat. He looked at you. He got up. He walked over to you. He probably licked his lips and blinks his eyes. In Theo's mind, arriving in front of you was the most rewarding behavior because it got him the treat! It may be why he likes his half-down. Is he already popping up by the time the treat gets in his mouth? He may like that position because it's treat position! : P

Now, imagine Theo sits on your cue and you say "Yes!" or click your clicker or whatever he knows means "treat time now!" It doesn't matter if he immediately jumps up and does a back flip! He knows that the moment his butt hit the floor he made the magical treat sound happen! : ) It opens the lines of communication right up. I love reward markers!

You would fade out the reward marker only as you fade out the reward. Once he knows the behavior and does it on cue at least 90% of the time, then you start intermittently not rewarding it. Still offer praise and maybe ask for something else to reward, so he doesn't think he's done anything wrong. When you do reward it, it's still a good idea to use the reward marker before treating. It's not as necessary once the behavior is learned, though, unless you start seeing bad habits. Like short cuts like Theo's half down. : P

To teach Theo his new reward marker (and this is the fun part!) you just stand in front of him and make the sound (click or speak), and pop a treat in his mouth. Repeatedly. It's really fun for everyone! "Yes!" *treat* "Yes!" *treat* "Yes!" *treat* "Yes!" *treat* over and over until you see that sparkle in his eye when he hears the sound. Then you know he knows what it means. : ) It's a good idea to walk around the room, take a seat in a chair, get up, lead him down the hallway while doing this so he won't think he's being rewarded for the location or position. Use smallish treats so that he doesn't get a treat hangover. Also, there are *some* rules. Make sure he's keeping his feet on the ground, not barking, taking the treats roughly, etc. You don't want to be reinforcing behaviors you don't like.

Once he's got it, you use the reward marker the instant he does the desired behavior. As soon as his chest his the ground for down, as soon as his butt contacts the ground for sit, the moment he barks for speak, etc. Hope I haven't overloaded you! I just go on and on when it comes to training. : P Hope you and Theo have fun with this!!

Oh, here is a video of one of Lumi's first training sessions. All she knows at the time is her name, so it's kind of boring, but it shows the timing/concept of the reward marker. : )


----------



## Theo'sMom (Mar 23, 2011)

Aha! I get it now. Thank you so much for the explanation. The reward marker "marks" the behavior that gets the reward. That way he learns exactly what behavior is being rewarded. 
In your video you use the clicker. We have a clicker and maybe I will try to use that as the marker. That way the words of praise won't confuse him. ("good sit" etc...)

Lumi is adorable! I like the way she is really attentive to you throughout the training session. She doesn't seem distracted at all and she looks at you for cues and seems to be having fun. Poodles seem to really like training and learning, don't they?

Thanks again for the explanation and to you and Lumi for the video. :act-up:


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Thank you! : ) Yes, she does love to learn and she picks things up like a Swiffer! 

Yea, we used the clicker for the first week or so, but then I switched to the word "Yes". I just couldn't have the clicker in my hand at all times and in those spontaneous times when she would be chewing on the wall and I'd tell her "Off", I wanted to be able to mark and reward her for listening. But, the great thing is they can definitely have more than one reward marker. They can learn five sounds have the same meaning, just not five meanings for one sound! : P If I took that clicker out again she would know what was up! : )


----------

