# Reactive dog or just immature?



## Clackman (Jul 2, 2013)

Hi, it's been a long time since I've been here on the Forum. My main topic before was Separation Anxiety, which is still an issue, but I haven't systematically worked on it. Right now, I have a more pressing issue. My Mitch is now a little over 14 months, still intact (the breeder advises waiting until at least 15 months for that, and maybe longer, as he is from a slow-maturing line). He just loves people and some dogs, when he is up close and personal, even on a leash. We have 5 fenced acres and when we are out there (he is never out there alone) and someone walks by, even just two women walking slowly and talking, or a jogger or someone walking a dog, he charges toward them barking furiously, running along the fence. I think it intimidates people, worrying that he might jump the fence or somehow find a way out. He totally ignores me. I have to catch up with him, sit him down, try to get him to watch me, but even then, he's trying to turn his head to see them. I can get him to watch me by holding a treat close to his nose, after I break his fixation on whoever goes by.

Also, if we happen to be out front and outside of the fence (or front yard is not fenced) and someone goes by, he lunges, esp. if they are walking a dog. He is not a huge spoo, about 65 lbs and about 25 inches at the withers, but is SO powerful. I was out in the front with him on a retractable to pee and poop, because hubby had sprayed the back yard (against my wishes, by the way). We were behind a big blue spruce near the street (the branches go all the way to the ground so you can't see around it). I had stooped to pick some mushrooms (so as to prevent Mitch from being poisoned), when all of a sudden, here comes a man walking a black lab, right there in our face. Oh my gosh, I thought I wasn't going to be able to hold him. I got the cord wrapped around my hand somehow, and held on for dear life, imagining a severed finger or something. Needless to say, no more retractable leash for us. When we are in a pet store, he will lunge at older dogs but not at puppies. He tries to pull to get to people because he is so friendly, wiggling all over. He tries to mouth their feet and go between their legs, a behavior that he has had since we got him at 10 weeks. I of course make him sit quietly (not easy for him because he is so excited. He is finally over the excited urinary dribbling when someone sweet-talks him or pets him, thank goodness, although he has started marking and marked inside Petco. In his defense, there was pee everywhere that no one had cleaned up. 

I met with a trainer, who suggested her Reactive Dog class, but after two sessions, she said she didn't think he was truly reactive, just immature, and that being around the truly reactive dogs might make him more reactive. So now he is in the regular obedience class.

I am going to end here, even though I have more pertinent information about what he does that might shed some light on what is going on, and also a question about a training aid that the trainer used on Mitch for a certain behavior, but last time I wrote a super long post, it disappeared into the ether somewhere, and I don't want to lose all this.

Thanks in advance. I guess I will just send this and then start the rest of the story.


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## Clackman (Jul 2, 2013)

Clackman said:


> Hi, it's been a long time since I've been here on the Forum. My main topic before was Separation Anxiety, which is still an issue, but I haven't systematically worked on it. Right now, I have a more pressing issue. My Mitch is now a little over 14 months, still intact (the breeder advises waiting until at least 15 months for that, and maybe longer, as he is from a slow-maturing line). He just loves people and some dogs, when he is up close and personal, even on a leash. We have 5 fenced acres and when we are out there (he is never out there alone) and someone walks by, even just two women walking slowly and talking, or a jogger or someone walking a dog, he charges toward them barking furiously, running along the fence. I think it intimidates people, worrying that he might jump the fence or somehow find a way out. He totally ignores me. I have to catch up with him, sit him down, try to get him to watch me, but even then, he's trying to turn his head to see them. I can get him to watch me by holding a treat close to his nose, after I break his fixation on whoever goes by.
> 
> Also, if we happen to be out front and outside of the fence (or front yard is not fenced) and someone goes by, he lunges, esp. if they are walking a dog. He is not a huge spoo, about 65 lbs and about 25 inches at the withers, but is SO powerful. I was out in the front with him on a retractable to pee and poop, because hubby had sprayed the back yard (against my wishes, by the way). We were behind a big blue spruce near the street (the branches go all the way to the ground so you can't see around it). I had stooped to pick some mushrooms (so as to prevent Mitch from being poisoned), when all of a sudden, here comes a man walking a black lab, right there in our face. Oh my gosh, I thought I wasn't going to be able to hold him. I got the cord wrapped around my hand somehow, and held on for dear life, imagining a severed finger or something. Needless to say, no more retractable leash for us. When we are in a pet store, he will lunge at older dogs but not at puppies. He tries to pull to get to people because he is so friendly, wiggling all over. He tries to mouth their feet and go between their legs, a behavior that he has had since we got him at 10 weeks. I of course make him sit quietly (not easy for him because he is so excited. He is finally over the excited urinary dribbling when someone sweet-talks him or pets him, thank goodness, although he has started marking and marked inside Petco. In his defense, there was pee everywhere that no one had cleaned up.
> 
> ...


This is to post more info to my previous post. I also wanted to say, Mitch is reactive in the house, to noises outside; I usually go look, tell him matter-of-factly that there is nothing to worry about, and he usually gets right down from the couch, where he usually goes to look out the front window. Sometimes I will see what he is barking at, and it is often the neighbor way in the distance, looking about an inch high, walking from her house to her barn, or if she has just let her horses out into her pasture. This event has happened daily for the year we have had Mitch, but he will bark at it anyway -- drives me nuts. Other times I look out, and cannot see or hear ANYTHING. Again, he is satisfied that I checked it out, and gets down. When he does this behavior, he typically erupts and startles the living daylights out of me! Often he has a somewhat high-pitched, hysterical sound to the bark. Oh -- he also barks at the school bus. He also barks at little noises IN the house, such as something on the TV (behind a closed door, where hubby is watching television), me getting pills out of a bottle in the kitchen while he is in the living room, and things of that nature. He is not sure what it is and instantly gets all freaked out, is my idea on why he does that. He is not afraid of everything, though. Gunfire, thunderstorms, vacuum cleaner, lawnmower, floor polishing machine in a store, etc., don't really bother him. 

I have a question about the following: the trainer of the class I have been taking him to generally uses only positive, reward-based methods, and is very kind and encouraging, very knowledgeable, thinks things through to understand dog behaviors and come up with solutions. But last class, there were just two dogs, and they were well-matched. It was Mitch and a young neutered male yellow lab, and they were both prone to giving the other a hard stare and then they would start barking and lunging toward each other. Still, the trainer felt they were both not reactive, just immature, although certainly their behavior seemed to have a reactive manifestation.

She had us walk our dogs parallel to each other starting quite far away and then gradually getting closer, coaching us to get their attention on us, and try to avert any attempts by the dogs to challenge each other. Then she had us do a meet and greet scenario with her in the middle. They did fine a few times, but then one of them or the other did a hard stare and the other reacted, so she had a tiny bottle of Binaca (breath spray) hidden in her hand and sprayed them in the mouth, whichever one she felt started it. They both got the treatment, Mitch got it twice. It caused them to back off immediately.

I was talking to a woman in a pet store about this, and she said she would have second thoughts about a trainer who did this, saying it was so irritating to the dog's mouth as to be abusive. I am wondering what other people think about this method. I was thinking, maybe this behavior, challenging another dog like that, is so serious it needs an aversive technique. When I told her about his excessive barking at home, she suggested the breath spray, but when I told her it's not that we never want him to bark, just that we want him to bark less and to stop if we tell him to, because we want a dog who will alert us if something is really wrong, she said, don't use the Binaca. So she doesn't just use it for dangerous behaviors.

Thanks again, all.


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## Clackman (Jul 2, 2013)

It's me again with more info that I thought might be helpful. I am in touch by email with the owner of his littermate, also intact, and it sounds like they are so much alike. Mitch's brother also seems to be reactive to other dogs, lunging at them, and also at people, when on leash, although, according to his "mom," he just wants to play (with the people at least). Or run with joggers, playfully, but it freaks out some of the other people (they did this at the beach one time, when no other dogs were around, so he was off leash). They promptly put him on a leash after he started running and jumping at the jogger. The puppies had very different upbringings, and different early experiences, so the fact that they are so much alike makes me think there is a strong genetic basis to their behavior. Mitch's brother also has separation anxiety, and so did their mother, although she had outgrown it by the time she got back from the handler at about a year old.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't have any advice. I am just glad that we did not decide to breed our two dogs... Stella is so much like this and she just turned 4 years old. I will be interested in reading what the trainers here have to say. Wishing you lots of luck.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

my personal reaction, without any real personal knowledge to back it up, is that it sounds as though your trainer is trying to rush things. from the examples i've seen, trainers usually rely upon a non-reactive dog to help in the situation you describe - the non-reactive dog is both non-threatening and serves as an example of the desired behavior. putting two similar dogs together and then spraying them sounds off, which is probably what you are secretly feeling? seems to me, if you have doubts about your trainer, it might be time to rethink things. two books to look at, both by patricia mcconnell: "the cautious canine - how to help dogs conquer their fears" and "feisty fido - help for the leash-reactive dog" she also has a book on separation anxiety.

full disclosure, i have not read these books. but if i needed help, i would definitely start with mcconnell. she has a very thoughtful, non-dogmatic (no pun intended) approach that is sympathetic to both the dog and the owner. 

i'm sure pf members with more and better experience will weigh in to try to help you.


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## Clackman (Jul 2, 2013)

I said thanks because, even though you didn't have advice, it feels somehow comforting that there are others out there feeling my pain!


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## Clackman (Jul 2, 2013)

thanks to Carly's mom, I mean


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## Clackman (Jul 2, 2013)

Thanks Patk,

As far as the trainer trying to rush things and putting two reactive dogs together -- it is a drop-in class so you never know which dogs are going to be there, other than the fact that it will be only dogs the trainer has approved as appropriate for that particular class. The time before the one with Mitch and the lab, there was a Shi Tzu 5 month old female pup, non-reactive. So Mitch was on better behavior. It just so happened that last time, Mitch and I and Henry and his "mom" were the only ones to show. So the trainer was working with what she could, given the circumstances, other than to work with each team separately. 

Another thing the trainer said was, what Mitch needs is an older, somewhat grouchy dog to put him in his place without hurting him. At the day care, there was an older female spoo who served just that function, but as the owner of the day care said, "Mitch doesn't listen." I guess the older spoo didn't get the message across and also, Mitch hasn't been there for a while. Maybe he needs a tune-up.

I wasn't having doubts about the trainer until talking to the woman at the pet store, which put the idea in my head that maybe the breath spray wasn't a good thing. Before that, I trusted the trainer to make good training decisions because of how positive her methods have been. Now I am remembering, she had also mentioned a can filled with pennies, not sure what I was supposed to use that for (it was a while ago and I am almost 64 -- what can I say -- my memory is not what it used to be.) I would have to ask her again about what she had in mind for the can with pennies. She did mention not to use it much, though, I think, because he is really sensitive and she doesn't want me to scare him. Does that make sense? Obviously I am going to have to clarify that one. she is out of town this weekend so won't be able to ask until next week.


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## TammyQ (Feb 10, 2012)

I feel for you. My Hudson is having some reactivity these days too. For him it is mostly younger women he reacts to, and only if they are standing up; if they are sitting it is not a problem. I am working with a trainer and we are still trying to narrow down just what the trigger is for him. But, boy oh boy, it is stressful. I haven't taken him walking much because I just don't want to have him go off on anyone during our walk. He has never done anything more than bark and run up to them, but it is still stressful for me. The trainer is not concerned about any biting, and we are trying to figure out if it is a fear thing or a reaction thing or just what it is. 

I don't have any answers for you, but I just want you to know that you are not the only one right now dealing with this.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

drawing on many years ago when i had a puppy and was trying to read everything out there, the can of pennies is shaken or thrown on the ground as an interrupter for unwanted behavior; it's supposed to startle the dog and get his attention off whatever it is he is doing that is undesirable. it's not the first choice i would make for a sensitive dog, though. i really do think it would be worth it to try one of the patricia mcconnell books - they're even available for the kindle on amazon if you have a kindle. amazon also has lots of reviews of the books, to help you decide if they were useful to others with dog issues similar to yours.


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## Rachel76 (Feb 3, 2014)

http://m.youtube.com/user/kikopup
I'm sorry to hear you and your dog are having difficulties. My first dog was very reactive, unfortunately I had no idea about it at the time. My puppy Hemi is being trained with the clicker and is making great progress. I have been using lots and lots of info from kikopup on youtube. I click for Hemi being calm when she sees another dog. 

Here is a link to some of kikopups videos that you might find helpful. Hang in there. Have lots of patience for your dog and yourself.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think I would book a session or two with a qualified behaviourist. Was your pup a little late in socialising with other dogs and people? It can be so difficult balancing the risks of being out and about before they are fully vaccinated against the ned for them to meet lots of different things as early as possible. It does sound as if his enthusiasm is more frustration at not being able to get to all the exciting dogs and people than fear of them, which is promising, but that he then doesn't have the skills to manage the encounters well. A behaviourist would be able to teach both of you the best way forward, and may also have that best teacher of all: a kind, well socialised adult dog that stands no nonsense from unruly adolescent pups! It's really worth putting a lot of effort in now - his over bounciness could lead other dogs (and people) to view him as rude or threatening, and lead to the sort of encounters that teach him that attack is the best form of defence. And that is a lot more difficult to deal with...

In the meantime, I think I would play lots of self control games, to help him cope with frustration. Kikopup has good examples, and there are others if you search the internet.


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## Feelingdoc (Feb 18, 2014)

I'm NOT a dog trainer but I wonder because he has so much energy if he isn't a little bored? Barking seems to get your attention. Perhaps structuring more play time with teaching tricks (finding objects) with longer thinking skills will help him focus on you more consistently? My female has a lot of energy and directing it in positive directions sort of resolved more negative behaviors...she liked to tear apart anything stuffed.


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## Clackman (Jul 2, 2013)

Thanks Rachel76. I will check out the kikopup videos. By the way, I used to live near Landstuhl, Germany, a little town called Mittelbrunn. We did drive through parts of Bavaria. Loved being in Germany, miss it.


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## Clackman (Jul 2, 2013)

And also thanks to fjm and Feelingdoc. I did quick replies to your posts too, but somehow they disappeared, into the ether I guess. I would try to re-create them but have to go now.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

So sorry to hear of your ongoing challenges with Mitch! I remember your previous threads looking for help with his separation anxiety and excessive barking. I _so _appreciate all the thought and background details you share when asking questions. You are so thorough! Sounds like you've explored and tried many things. I admire your stick-to-it-ive-ness, it sure can't be easy.

I don't want to be a Debbie Downer here, but hearing about Mitch's leash-lunging makes me want to tell you about a friend's female spoo who at 19 months, after exhibiting that same behavior, along with episodes of frenzied barking in the house and the fenced yard (screeching at times), escalated to biting. (Sadly that poodle is no longer with them.) Anyway, I feel much concern for you and the stress you're dealing with. I think of the safety concerns. (Sure don't you or your dh, especially with his bad back, being knocked over by an exuberant, leash-lunging Mitch.) From watching my friend's situation, I have seen the stress living with this kind of out-of-control behavior can cause both owner and dog. 

A few years ago a woman in our dog walking club adopted a two year old leash-reactive GSD. She worked hard and long to get that dog under control, and it is much improved. To the point the dog can walk calmly in pretty close proximity to others in our pack of 14 dogs and their people. She worked with several trainers, one who used the approach shown in this video. I will tell you she still has to be vigilant of her dog, but they can and do enjoy being out and about so try to keep the faith!
Counter Conditioning Less Stress More Success - YouTube 

About that "Bianca blast" the trainer advocated, well, that wouldn't fly with me. I am simply a pet owner, fortunate to have a very easy-to-live with poodle. I have had dogs my entire adult life (you and I are age-mates). Over time I have formed my own very comfortably held opinions about dog training approaches and who I trust for advice. One standout there, as already recommended in this thread, is Emily Larlham (kikopup). She offers a wide array of free training videos, among them a good series managing barking. Here are some of them. You can scroll through for others. 





Barking Episode 5- Barking at Dogs Behind Fences - YouTube

I_ think _I recall you saying in an earlier thread you consulted an animal behaviorist to help with Mitch's separation anxiety, but I may have that wrong. Anyway, should you decide to search for another to help you with his issues, you might find someone qualified here.
CAAB: Directory of Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists — Animal Behavior Society: Applied Animal Behavior
Veterinary Behaviorist: Find a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist ACVB

Good luck with everything! And, stay safe! :clover:

[Sorry if my reply is a bit discombobulated. I kept losing my connection to the forum! Gotta figure a way to counter-condition technology.]:mad3:


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## Clackman (Jul 2, 2013)

Thank you, Chagall's mom. I have saved the links to look at later. I had checked both of those websites before (for the behaviorists) and there are none closer to me than 300+ miles. There are 11 Certified Professional Dog Trainers in my area, of which the trainer who has the Binaca is one. All of them say "Knowledge Assessed."

I've had that problem too -- losing my connection to Poodle Forum. Better get this sent before that happens!


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