# Disaster. I am so upset.



## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

Today was awful dreadful horrible.

Background. Ruff is a darling, cuddly, affectionate. A bit of separation anxiety, he loves his people, but he soon settles. He sleeps all night in a crate (to keep him safe from the cats and in earthquakes) he was housetrained at 11 weeks, and is a doddle to train.

He has never been smacked or hit, only positive training in this house. We clicker train.

He was hand fed for the first 2 weeks we had him, we often hold chews and pigs ears whilst he chews them, and he lies beside me chewing happily. I stoke and fuss him while he is chewing. I can take his bowl up whilst he is eating, add some goodies and put it back, no problem.

We are transitioning to raw and bones, so he has kibble for breakfast and K9 raw food later. He has had one or two real raw meals. 

The first time he had a chicken wing he took it from the bowl and jumped onto the outside sofa. This is obviously a no-no. I picked him up to move him to the floor AND HE CHOKED. We all panicked but a couple of good coughs and all was well. Phew! So we stuck with the freeze dried food for a week or so.
Next incident. he had a bone and we were working outside, Ruff was chewing on the bone near us. Up he hops onto the sofa, bone and all. Hubby says 'no' and goes to lift him off and pup growls at him. Hubby jumps back shocked. Then lifts him off even though he is growling.

Fast forward to today. I am home alone. I decide we need to get over this bone thing. I get 2 meaty bones. They are yucky so I put gloves on. I hold bone and Ruff chews the other end. All is good. Then I put the bone on the floor for him to chew, and pick up the other one.
"Ruff, leave it!" (a command he knows well) and reach down to pick up the bone. He snarls and bites at the glove.
I say "don't be so silly" and pick it up. He looks at me with big worried eyes, and he is shaking. I pat him, and reassure him.

I give him bone number 2 and he settles down. I say "Ruff leave it" and go to pick it up. This time he snarls and actually bites the glove. He doesn't bear down but it would have hurt if I had not the glove on.
"Ruff!" I say shocked, and snatch the bone. He tried to hang on but misses it, makes a snarl, looks at me, and goes all shaky and confused again.

The third time I hold the bone and he chews happily at it, looking at me all the time, until he has chewed off a piece of meat. Then I leave him to eat that on his own and take the rest away.

He has never shown anything but total affection. He is the puppy they use to play with the aggressive pups at puppy class because he is so easy going. This is total jekel and hyde stuff.

What now? Stop feeding bones? That would solve the problem but is that all there is to it? i can go back to kibble or feed K9 freeze dried (it is made here in Christchurch, i can get it cheaper from the factory)

Or should we try to solve this problem?

I was in floods of tears after this and Ruff crawled into my lap and kept licking away the tears. This was the dog who an hour before had tried to bite me. I just don't understand.

I am not an experienced dog owner, although i have had a dog before. My kids are aged 22, 20 and 15, only the youngest still at home. Ruff has a lot of exercise, normally 2 and a half hours a day, including free running on the beach, dune slack or in the domain. I love my dog and I am committed to him. But I don't know what to do for the best.

Please help.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Vegas tried this as a puppy to me, only once. I had him on a sheet eating a raw meaty bone and I went to pick it up and move it to the sheet again, and he froze and growled. I instantly grabbed him by the scruff and had in on his back with me almost sitting on top of him, giving him a very specific scolding TO HIS FACE while holding him down that that behavior is NOT accepted.

I then proceeded to do a training exercise after that for an hour, first touching his body, then sitting near him as he chewed, letting him realize that moving and touching his food does not mean that I am going to take it away.

Now, he is almost too passive with his treats and bones, as he lets my other dog or even the kitten steal them. I wouldn't care if he nailed one of the other animals, but ANY aggression at all towards people is ABSOLUTELY forbidden. I'll say this now, I am not completely soft with my dogs, if they do something wrong, they are verbally corrected, and if they do it again, they are physically corrected, be it grabbing the muzzle and forcing them into a sit with it and making them look at me, or a collar pop.


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

So from here, I should give him another bone and then pin him down and tell him off as soon as he growls?

Can you also explain the training exercise in detail, please. I sit with him whilst he is eating, and touch him and his bone and if he growls or snaps then he gets pinned down again?

Is this right?

It is Saturday night here in NZ, and as I threw the bones away we cannot try this until Monday at the earliest, so I have time to check the details.

If he is frightened of chocking again, wouldn't this frighten him more? Or would it just reassure him I am in charge and the worst is not going to happen?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would read FozziesMums thread on resource guarding before doing ANYTHING. And he does not sound a good candidate for forceful methods - you risk turning an unpleasant incident into a full blown resource guarding problem. From what you say, he was as frightened and upset by the whole thing as you were.

I would start by teaching swapsies with less valuable toys and food - give him a toy, offer to swap it for a piece of chicken or something else really good, give him the chicken, then GIVE HIM THE TOY BACK! He is learning that giving something to you is a Good Thing for Dogs. Build up to swapping for a dull chew toy, then a more interesting one - no force, no confrontation, just regular reinforcement that letting you have "his" stuff means he gets a delicious treat, and then gets whatever it was back (or if it is something undesirable, a really good substitute. I would also teach Leave it as a separate exercise, but for my dogs Leave it means leave it alone and come away - I use the all purpose Wait to mean Just hang on a moment!


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

Katie said:


> So from here, I should give him another bone and then pin him down and tell him off as soon as he growls?


:afraid: NOOO!! DON'T DO THAT!! That is a sure fire way to escalate the situation and behaviour!!

You want to condition him to realizing that you taking the bone away is okay and that he will get it back. Start working on the "trade game" where he will have his bone, then you trade a yummy treat for his bone. You want him to willingly give up the bone.

Talk to a behaviourist if you are unsure of how to address this guarding behaviour.


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## CurlyDog (Aug 20, 2008)

I agree. The forceful method is old school. It's still being taught and does work for some. I believe the positive methods work best. Sometimes intimidation can lead to fear biting. IMO


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Here's is what worked for me with my 15-year-old rescue diabetic poodle who happened to be a resource guarder. (Okay, so he didn't have all that many teeth and he was 15. Not. Very. Threatening. But the principle is the same.  )

He would latch onto bones and rawhides and refuse to let go. Once, we had a two hour standoff over a rawhide he'd flattened into a sheet. (I failed to bring in a swap out treat, so thank goodness for HBO.) He eventually fell asleep and I awarded myself a win. Yeah, it was cheating but still. Small victories. 

The swap out game works _wonders_. I used to trade him a piece of chicken for rawhides and he gave them up without a fuss. Of course, he was miffed that his rawhide seemingly vanished into thin air. With meaty bones, you can trade him for something else of value, like a piece of chicken or beef. Then, make him sit and return the bone once he's calm. 

Once you have that down, work on getting HIM to drop the bone ("drop it"or "leave it") for a piece of chicken/beef/turkey bacon. He'll soon willingly drop it into your hand! Then work on putting him in a stay, while you pick up the bone-if dropped on the ground, hold it for a minute or two, and then put it back (but don't release him from the stay. Make him wait until you say it's okay to take the bone). 

He'll soon learn that you're not taking his bone, but asking him to do things while enjoying it. Once you return it for the second or third time, I'd end the session and let him actually enjoy it (undisturbed). 

To simplify:
If he growls, snaps or tries to bite, I'd take the bone away for at least an hour. Try again. If he growls, snaps and bites again, take it away for at least another hour. Repeat until he lets you take it _without _snarling/biting. Then work through the above and give it back with a lot of praise! 

He'll soon learn that growling, snapping and biting don't get him what he wants. And that's the bone. He'll soon learn that only waiting patiently results in a reward (bone). 

Another tactic I use is standing my ground and moving into their personal space. Brandy could only eat certain things because of his diabetes. Sometimes, he got that notion that Pippin's leftovers were his and would move in. Without ever touching him, I'd move into the bowl and essentially claim it. I'd stand over it and we'd have a stare off. He was a master at the "stand off" and sometimes we had to stand there for....ten or so minutes. It was hard not to laugh. (Yes, he would growl and he'd try and act tough but it was all an act. The trick is to stay calm and not give in.) 

I'm not a proponent of force or negative correction. I don't buy into the Cesar Millan dog roll. Have you ever seen a wolf/dog _throw _another wolf/dog onto the ground? No. They maintain order by remaining calm and body language. It's the submissive wolf/dog that voluntarily rolls, as a show of submission/compliance. The lead dog doesn't have to resort to violence. You are his teacher here and he's looking to you for guidance. You don't need to use force. (It's like ignoring a child having a tempter tantrum. They can only kick and scream for so long. Eventually, they shut up and you haven't lifted so much as a finger. You win through patience.)

I agree with CurlyDog that throwing this guy down might result in fear biting and/or choking. I think he's testing the waters and would do the same if another dog tried to take his bone. It's his way of saying, "This is mine." You need to say, "Dude. Chill out. I know it's your bone but I gave it to you. So there!" Just kidding on the latter. You're basically saying, "Yes, it's your bone but I'm in charge here and I'm asking for it back. Do what I'm asking and you'll get the bone."

I hope this helps!


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## Hektor (Apr 16, 2011)

I agree with the opinions of learning the "trade game" but not starting with the bone. Start trading low value treats with high value treats. he will leave the low value treat for the high value. The exrecise will end up trading the high values that your dog will have with the low value treats you give him. You will need time for this!

But, apart from that, in my opinion dogs shouldn't be disturb while eating (and resting). Is like we force them to act like this.
I would act the same way if I used to eat only beans and suddenly someone gives me a humburger and tries then to take it away!!!


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

Rowan, thank you for the clear steps. I feel happier with this than the other way. Ruff is inclined to be submissive rather than dominant, and I feel this comes from fear (both of chocking again, and off loosing the bone) Thankfully it is only over bones, but I would hate it to escalate to other things.

Would you practice with bones right away, or would you start with things like pigs ears? He often has those although I have never tried to take them off him, we are all around him when he eats them, and I often hold one end.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would start with something really boring and low value, as Hektor suggests. You want to avoid any chance of him practicing - and thus reinforcing - the guarding behaviour. Once he knows you will give it back, and a really good treat as well, you can move on to the pig's ears - and when he is cheerfully offering those for a treat, a not very exciting bone!

When we were children we were taught never to disturb any of the dogs while they were eating or sleeping. We expect a great deal from our dogs these days, and it is only fair to teach them what we mean in a way that sets them up for success, not failure.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Katie:
I'm glad I was of some help. I agree that it would be beneficial to start with something he covets less than a meaty bone. (As much to build your confidence as his.) Work through the "trading game" exercises until he willingly relinquishes whatever he's holding. He'll soon learn to enjoy it as it really is a "game" and a good bonding exercise. 

When you feel confident, you can try the meaty bones again. Poodles are smart dogs. You'll eventually reach a stage where he won't even touch that meaty bone until you give him the "okay." And like I said, once you've given it over for the last time, let him enjoy it in peace. He'll be relaxed because he'll know that he'll _eventually _get it, and he won't rush to eat it for fear it will be taken away. 

(When he was jumping up on the furniture, he didn't realize you wanted him _off the sofa._ He thought you meant to take his bone.)


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Very good point about the sofa, Rowan. I am in the process of teaching mine "On the blanket", meaning Please keep your sticky bones etc on the cheap fleece blanket I can bung in the washing machine, and off my furniture and cushions!


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you people. Things have been better today, I am feeling much better.

Today we have been playing swapsies with a rawhide. Not my favorite item to have him eat but not a bone, and also not his favorite chew. He was chewing away and I sat down in front of him. He glanced at me and went back to chewing. I (rather obviously and right in front of him!) got out the treat bag. 

I said 'swapsies' as i thought 'leave it' might now have connotations, and offered him a treat, real meat! from the bag. He dropped the rawhide which I picked up with one hand whilst giving him the meat with the other. He was already trying to sniff what i had in my bag even before he dropped it. We did this several times, then he got up and climbed into my lap, rawhide and all. I petted him for a bit, then moved him off and got up. 

Not a hiss, not a growl, not a rumble. 

I am so very pleased by this.

So how long do i keep this up, or shall we move onto the same exercise with a pigs ear and then a bully stick? We had to try food items as he doesn't care about toys. If I so much as make a move towards my pocket he drops the toy and sits hopefully at my feet! He brings me toys anyway, rather than guarding them.

Thank you for all your advice, please let me know what you think for the next step.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

What they said :smile:.

It may be, too, that he has had two bad/scary experiences when a person handled him while he was eating, once when he choked and once when he picked the wrong place to eat. It could be some fear and some resource guarding.

Playing swaps is good, but I would also emphasize to him that a hand moving towards something he is eating/chewing only ever means good things. So sometimes, rather than swapping for the rawhide, just move your hand in and deposit a piece of dried liver or other super-yummy then move away.

My dog has never had any resource guarding issues, but I STILL make it a point to interrupt his dinner once or twice a week by depositing something extra tasty in it while he's eating. That way, the dog sees "hand moving towards my dinner" as only ever a Very Good Thing.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would take it slowly - a few days swapping for rawhide a couple of times a day, then pigs ear for a few days, then bully stick ... you know he's got the idea when he drops it and looks to you at the mere mention of Swapsies, even when the treat bag is not in your hand. Eventually you can progress to making a trip together to the fridge for the treat - that is really Advanced Swapping! JE's point about making approaching hands a welcome thing is a very good one - another game to play!


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

I'm with the "take it slowly" camp.  You don't want to take a step forward only to take two steps back! And I _know _you probably are, but when you remove the choice item, do it slowly. He's less likely to react to slow movement (versus your being in a rush and snatching it away). 

Also, at some point, you might be able to get him to hand you the item in question. (Alex will do that. If he has a rawhide and it's getting small, I take them away. I'll hold out my hand and say "Trade?" while showing him a piece of chicken. He's happy to do so and will set the nasty, slimy rawhide in the palm of my hand. He gets the better end of that deal!) This is even more important in multiple dog households. Sometimes one of the others will go covert ops and steal the dropped item.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

My greatest swap was when I persuaded Sophy to let me have the dessicated half rabbit she had found, in exchange for a treat when we got back to the car, 50 yards away! I think she felt she got a poor deal that time - I had to significantly up my offer for the next rabbit!


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

I have just got back from the beach (early Monday morning here) and we had TWO successes.

Firstly, Ruff loves to play pounce and toss with shells, and he was pouncing and tossing away this morning, as we were walking along. He pounced on one shell and as he tossed it , it gleamed. At first i thought it was the shiny inside, then I realised it was a piece of sharp glass. I yelled "leave it" at the top of my voice...i was frightened....and he turned away from where it had fallen and trotted over to me and sat! i gave him heaps of praise, and 3 yummy treats. (and then i picked up the glass, found the rest of the broken bottle, bagged it in a poo bag and binned it! I tied Ruff to a log whilst I did this!)

THEN, about 500 yards further down the beach he finds a stinky dead fish, and starts playing toss with that! SO, I shout 'swapsies' in my bestest happy voice, and he leaves it and trots over to me! heaps of fuss and praise and treats....but of course I cannot give it back, and I said "swapsies" so i leash him, run down the beach a bit and get out his ball. We don't play ball on the beach much because it is supposed to be bad for their hips, but I happened to have ball in my pocket anyway. So we played ball, which he loves, as a reward. I leashed him to walk back past it.

I cannot believe he left the fish...its food! I am hoping and hoping this is just a puppy aberration and we can get over it, and not have it as a problem for years. Yes I do know we are going to have to practice it at least weekly for the rest of his life. But maybe we can conquer it now without it escalating.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Dessicated rabbits and stinky fish---YUCK! LOL 

No amount of toothpaste and brushing could erase that nonsense. 

Congrats, Katie! Your hard work and open-mindedness is paying off!!!!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Hektor said:


> I agree with the opinions of learning the "trade game" but not starting with the bone. Start trading low value treats with high value treats. he will leave the low value treat for the high value. The exrecise will end up trading the high values that your dog will have with the low value treats you give him. You will need time for this!
> 
> But, apart from that, in my opinion dogs shouldn't be disturb while eating (and resting). Is like we force them to act like this.
> I would act the same way if I used to eat only beans and suddenly someone gives me a humburger and tries then to take it away!!!


This makes great sense to me. Sounds like very sound advice.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Katie said:


> THEN, about 500 yards further down the beach he finds a stinky dead fish, and starts playing toss with that! SO, I shout 'swapsies' in my bestest happy voice, and he leaves it and trots over to me! heaps of fuss and praise and treats....but of course I cannot give it back, and I said "swapsies" so i leash him, run down the beach a bit and get out his ball. We don't play ball on the beach much because it is supposed to be bad for their hips, but I happened to have ball in my pocket anyway. So we played ball, which he loves, as a reward. I leashed him to walk back past it.


Sounds to me as if he has jumped straight from kindergarten to tertiary level swapping - well done, both of you!


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

We have progressed to pigs ear swapsies without batting an eyelid! In fact he dropped it as soon as he saw me coming. 
We played swapsises 3 or 4 times and I left him to enjoy the rest in peace.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I always play swapsies and stick my hand in the bowl and leave something really yummy with my dogs when they are puppies so they grow up with it. Hektor has an excellent point - don't do this too much. It can be annoying. Even though you have had great success I would take it slowly so you have repeated good behavior to build on. I like this method the dog is happy to comply and you get the good behavior you desire. I like to keep my training happy and fun. You sound like a natural trainer to have such good results so soon.


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