# Looking at a litter; help reviewing the pedigree?



## sniah (Jan 21, 2011)

I'm looking at a litter, and trying to wade my way through the pedigrees as best I can. I must say it is rather hard for a newbie like me to get much out of it 

The dam is ELEGANT THE YEAR OF JUBILEE (PR09305304), and the sire is DARKOVERS LION SLEEPS TONIGHT (PR11203604).
Looking at the poodle health registry, the dam has a higher COI (22.7%) than I have noticed in the other litters I have checked. Her ancestry has a little bit of Parent_of issues, but as far as I can tell it does not seem to be widespread. For example, her sire produced Addisons, but it appears to be one puppy in 18 litters.
I don't see info on the sire in phr, but he has good testing.

The main goals we have for the dog for our family is temperament and health. Both of the dogs look to have outstanding personalities.

The litter is from someone that I have a high regard for, with a long history of experience / excellence, and a full health guarantee. Since I have a lot of confidence in this breeder, my assumption is I should just trust the breeder. But I like to try to do my best to do my homework as well 

Anyone have specific feedback on the pedigrees?
thanks!


----------



## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

There are possibly others here who know the breeder - I don't.

I do know that 20+ years ago a large mini was breed to a small standard. 

Since then most red breeders have been trying to keep the color and correct the structure issues that resulted. 

You can read more about that here _*ShangriLa*_

_"The color was stunning and I was dancing from joy! The problem came later on. The heads were Standard Poodles, the legs short like Miniature Poodles. While they were cute, they were not in temperament as I knew the Standard Poodle. They all were smaller than a Standard and they were called a "Caniche", (the in-between size of Mini and Standard Poodle)." 

Shangrilas Commander is where we are TODAY.....__ "_


Perhaps she has a reason, but that breeding seems to be going in the opposite direction of quality red breeding. A smaller size could be achieved by selected breeding of her standard to a quality smaller standard male. They exist, and would be a smart choice, though likely would result in a stud fee.

Perhaps others will comment.

I hope there is somehow a justifiable reason behind this breeding, other than to produce a smaller sized red litter! It's against all that those of us who desire to see quality in reds are breeding for and stepping back over 20 years in type (and temperment??).


Tabatha


Tabatha


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Is this the Karbit/Karin Benker litter? I don't think Karin is hung up on colour at all, but more interested in size. She breeds Kleins. The grandsire did produce one case of Addisons, when bred to his own daughter. To date, he has sired 93 children, over 484 grandchildren, and over 781 great grandchildren, with multiple breedings to two of his daughters, with only one reported case of Addisons. His first litter goes back to November of 1998. I do not think there is a problem here.


----------



## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

So, Cherie, you would advocate that breeding instead of breeding to a smaller red standard to bring the size into "Klienpoodle" range?????

Annie is just over 20 inches.

She could be bred to a small red standard male and in another generation be producing Kleinpoodle sizes without hijacking the conformation again.

Sorry, I just DO NOT understand chosing this way - other than economics - which is again, against what we as responsible breeders are supposed to be doing.

And Elegant?????????? No personal experience, but I do not like what I see when I look at how much those animals were used. NOTE: They are in both Antoinette and B's lines. They were used so much they are in most everyones lines!

Tabatha


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

NOLA Standards said:


> So, Cherie, you would advocate that breeding instead of breeding to a smaller red standard to bring the size into "Klienpoodle" range?????
> 
> Annie is just over 20 inches.
> 
> ...


No. I am not advocating anything or putting down anything in this breeding because I am not a Klein breeder- so cannot put my head where a Klein breeders head may be. Because colour isn't her primary concern, but size is, because Annie is so tiny, and the sire seems to be a bigger Klein, this could work out quite well for her. But, I know nothing about breeding Kleins.

I agree. It is mighty hard to find a red anywhere in the world without Regal or Farley's D I am Marcello or Jumpin Jack Flash in their pedigree. It is going to take a lot of years of work to undo this new bottleneck we are encountering in Spoos.


----------



## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Reds have no more bottleneck than any other color. Snapper, Treson, Gordon, Miki, Bama, et al (not to metion all the Wycliffe) lends to double digit COIs in blacks and whites.

Those reds that seem to have really high COIs are from those breeders who were simply breeding to what they have instead of investing to outcross.

Annie's and B's are 3% and 6% respectively. That's not an issue in this discussion.

The number of animals produced out of Ms Jana is. Totally different thing than using a stud multiple times.

I've pretty much laid out the argument, concisely I think, except for where I stepped very careful around Elegant's reputation for all those breedings.

People will continue to not test and over breed and instead of breeding out, for economics sake will breed to what they have.

And they will continue to call themselves ethical breeders.

Prob best if I leave this thread alone. I'm pretty passionate about breeding reds to improve.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Do you know what the COI is on the pups? I would think it will be quite low, even though the dams is very high,


----------



## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

If Snaid doesn't have concerns about mini x standard breeding, then she is certainly not going to stress over a COI.

and if color wasn't an issue - then don't breed to a red standard and use the other colors you already have


REALLY



I have to leave this thread alone.


----------



## sniah (Jan 21, 2011)

NOLA Standards said:


> If Snaid doesn't have concerns about mini x standard breeding, then she is certainly not going to stress over a COI.
> 
> and if color wasn't an issue - then don't breed to a red standard and use the other colors you already have


I'm no breeder, and these are all areas I'm trying to wrap my head around. I don't yet know if I have concerns of a mini x standard breeding. It's also difficult for me to know how much weight to put in comparing one COI value against another. Aside from this litter I had come across ~5% some spoos in general, and ~10% for reds in particular. I haven't figured out if there is some number that warrants concern, but all things being equal I'm assuming lower is better 
Is there a rule of thumb of a number that starts to raise flags?

Can you elaborate a bit on why not to breed to a red standard? Do they have a greater gamut of problems that you would want to avoid, if one is not already dedicated to this particular color? I do like the color, but it is secondary for me.


----------



## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Do you know what the COI is on the pups? I would think it will be quite low, even though the dams is very high,


The way I understand it, the COI on this litter would be 0%.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

There is a good read at the Canine Diversity Project on COI's. It is stated there that under 10% can give you an extra 4 years with a dog. Some breeders find the COI's a very valuable tool, while others disregard it entirely, and everything in between. We are personally striving for litters at less than 7%. Our breeding dogs all have low COI's, and the mates we choose will reduce them in the puppies in most cases.


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

While I don't personally agree with breeding a mini to a standard...I would be happy with any dog from Karen at Karbit!

She seems to know exactly what she is breeding for, and has produced some amazing mini's and some awesome kliens/moyens. She health tests all of her animals, and participates in agility, and obedience

Could she breed two smaller standards together and get some results? probably...but why not use her EXCEPTIONAL mini male, with the decent standard and see what happens?
I'll definitely be watching that litter to see how it turns out

ps
I want to add that if I were in the market for a smaller standard (moyen/klien) I wouldn't hesitate to contact Karen! especially in the apricot and red spectrum


----------



## Angie (Aug 31, 2008)

If you have any questions about Karin's breedings, ask her. She will be honest with you and answer any questions. 
I have a Karbit pup and am VERY happy. 
Everyone has an opinion so just be sure to get both sides of the story. Talk to Karin.


----------

