# Breeders without webpages



## Ameka (Oct 19, 2010)

While I adore the internet and the wealth of information it puts in easy reach, I know that some people do not.

During a conversation with a friend, (one of the "only rescue/shelter dogs" crowd), she stated that any breeder who advertises or has a website, is "in it for the money." I know that is not true as a blanket statement, as there are some breeders who seem truly in it for the advancement of the breed and just happen to have lovely, well-made websites. 

I think a well-made, up-to-date, website is very helpful as prospective buyer, with health tests, and pedigrees linked for breeding animals. But since not everyone is sufficiently tech-savvy to have one, how does a well-intentioned future poodle owner find out about these great but luddite breeders?

So I guess my question is twofold. 1. How can one find a good breeder who keeps their online presence so minimal/nonexistent and check for pedigree/health tests, etc? and 2. Is there a clear way to refute her assertion that "all breeders are in it for the money?"

Sub-question: I've heard going to shows can be a great way to meet breeders and poodle people in general. I'm planning on going to a show in Ocala this weekend, but am at a loss as to how to appropriately start a conversation.

Disclaimer: Sorry if this seems scattered or all over the place. I've had this thought roiling around in my head for a while and it tends to make things convoluted when typed out. Thanks for your patience.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Poodle Breeders wear many hats. Breeder, Groomer, Geneticist, Trainer, Behavourist, Veterinarian, and now Marketer and Website Designer.

The majority of Breeders do now have websites. Even those Breeders who have been breeding for years. I do not think it has to do with making money. You can have the most awesome poodles in the whole world but if no one knows you do...you will not sell them. So many unscrupulous breeders have websites..it is necessary for ethical breeders to also have websites.

Breeders can advertise in other forums other then with their own website. In Canada you can advertise for free on KIJIJI (but a lot of puppy mills use this as an advertsing medium). Or you can pay to advertise on a Poodle Breeders website like...Poodle Breeders in Canada, Toy Poodles, Miniature Poodles, Standard Poodles, puppies, puppy, breeder. Many breeders are members of their breed clubs and potential puppy buyers can find about them by going to the breed club site.

As for approaching Breeders (Handlers) at shows. My only advice would be to be sure of the time the poodles are scheduled for the ring and do not approach too close to this time as Poodle take a lot of grooming to get ready and you may not get the response you want.

Most Breeders are proud of their dogs and are more than happy to talk to people about their breed. If they do not seem approachable...perhaps you wouldn't be happy with a dog from them anyway.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Side note: personally I find it very offensive when someone says sneeringly that "Breeders are only in it for the money." Does that person do whatever she does from 9 to 5 for free, or does she expect to be paid for it?

Most hobby breeders certainly aren't making a living from their hobby, but I hope they are making at least enough to stay in the hobby. I don't expect to get a quality dog from someone for free; if a potential pet owner doesn't want to pay the going rate for a good dog, there are plenty of dogs in shelters who desperately need a loving home, and won't cost nearly as much as a quality puppy from a good hobby breeder. 

Personally I'm not a breeder, never will be, but I support the work they do, and I'll pay what I can reasonably afford for a good dog. If part of what I'm paying represents profit for them, great! That makes it more likely they can stay in the business and bless other homes with good dogs in the future.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Approach the poodle set ups. If they seem to be frantically grooming, watch -or skirt the edges and come back. The best way to express what is going on is to tell you they are working under a deadline for a big presentation!

It's best to catch them breaking down or exercising. The pace will have changed quite a lot. This will be after ring time - toys, minis and standards. Don't forget the group - but only 1 poodle from each variety will make the group. You'll be able to tell by observing...then approach, introduce yourself and tell them you are interested in a puppy.


Ummm... I'll go ahead and tell you to skip saying you are interested in a pet  We know that and don't offer show pups to people unknown to us - if we offer a show pup at all. Any pup that we don't keep is a "pet" to be loved and to be placed in only the best home.


If you are in Ocala -You might see Kay Palade (Kaylens) or Terry Wellman (Gulfbreeze) or Michael Lobinski. Another 2 ladies to look for are Darla and Mary (Chrystal Gallant Standard Poodles), they will have the silver Special "Sterling" and a beautiful silver girl in the open class.
You might also see Dan Giles and Karin Berlin and "Cane" the mini special.

There will likely be others, but those I listed are FL breeders and handlers that I know in the area and that are all well respected. They test and they prove. They do all have some sort of web presence.

As far as the website... Is the focus selling a puppy? or is there educational content and news about what they are doing/have done with their animals.

If you search this website you'll find lots of blogs about BYB - what makes one and what doesn't. 

For me - what I believe sets a breeder apart from others is they breed to improve the breed. ALWAYS - EVERY litter! There (In my not so humble opinion) are PLENTY of pups already available and no need to breed a litter for the sake of doing so.

This little discourse is currently in another thread.

Health test - yes

Limited number of litters - yes

Prove the animal - conformation or agility - yes

Are they breeding from what is "on the farm" or are they investing in top studs to improve the line????

Support the puppy with health guarantee and lifetime support - yes


Was the litter bred to improve the breed? or to produce some pups to sell?

I have a litter. I have WAY more pups than I ever imagined I would get (ruby had 13!) and I am placing some as pets. The size of the litter shocked me and thrilled me! More pups to pick from for my next BBE CH! I will be placing pets but that is NOT why I bred the litter. I bred the litter for my next show dog (s) and for additional conformation in my foundation line. 

Red lines NEED what these puppies can bring - neck, carriage, tail set, leg and side movement and ATTITUDE (they are out of Kaylens  .

Hopefully, you can see my involvement on my website, a dedication to breed education and responsible pet ownership, (it's also why I post here) and the puppies being secondary. That's what I tried to do.

It's what I think should be done.

And of course I'm right :aetsch:

Tabatha Waters
NOLA Standards

PS. And yes, it is wonderful to recoup some of your investment. It doesn't bring us "even" though, if we are really investing in the breed and proving animals, but it does help support us doing what we love. There are breeders in it for the money. With the information shared with you here, you should be able to identify them.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

That comment "breeders with websites are only in it for the money" sounds exactly like my sister -- we had a long argument - I just couldn't be bothered in the end. All about how - breeders of purebred dogs just do it for the money (yeah I bet they all make a HUGE profit!!!??) and purebred dogs are not as healthy as cross breeds. Crossbreeds don't have inherited conditions like purebreds so etc. etc etc.

This was after she had paid $700 for a Dachshund/Boston terrier cross on Craigslist and I told her I was looking at getting a Poodle. It didn't matter that her previous crossbreed had cost her a fortune because it had Cushings for years!!!

Sorry -- I know it was a friend -- but she obviously is an "expert" on dog breeders and breeds -- just like my sister!!!


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## Ameka (Oct 19, 2010)

Thanks for the great replies so far. 

I too find it offensive that even my good friend who is otherwise very knowledgeable about animals is SO negative about all breeders. It took me a while to even calm down enough to ask about it. She has been burned in the past which I think makes her point of view a bit stronger. 

Tabatha, I have heard in passing about Chrystal, Kaylens and a little about Gulfbreeze. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for those people this weekend. I think Blacktie may be there as well, but I've only seen limited reference to her on this forum. As an example, one I know exists but can't find any info on is Goodwin. I very much enjoy your website, and your "Lucky 13" are adorable. Unfortunately, I'm not quite in a position to purchase yet. Just doing the prelim research right now. Otherwise I would definitely have been emailing. 

Some of my top choices are several states away. I really want to make sure that I'm not overlooking a great opportunity nearby just because of a great website. NOLA, Tintlet, Jacknic, Calisun, are all pages I drool over regularly.

I'm a daily lurker, even though I don't post much at all. So I'm very attuned to what the basic requirements of a good breeder are. Best, for me, to listen much and say little, unless I have something to add that hasn't been said before (at least it's a good goal :tongue.


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## ItzaClip (Dec 1, 2010)

As someone looking for a spoo breeder with very particular set of requirements(health testing, limited vacination proticol, holistic, clicker trainer, ENS,intros grooming from young, etc...) i use the canadian poodle website to go through and "glean" tidbits from the small intro's then from there i read thier website, the info provided on my chosen breeders site caused me to contact her, in fact i had contacted a few other breeders, but both the descriptive site and contact with her made up my mind, i ended up not going with what i consider a good breeder, but due to lack of anything i could read, and sure when i asked if they did something the response " oh yes we do that too" does not convince me as much s thier passion being stated on the site.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Ameka said:


> So I guess my question is twofold. 1. How can one find a good breeder who keeps their online presence so minimal/nonexistent and check for pedigree/health tests, etc?


Use the PCA website and its clickable map to find PCA members *and* breed clubs in your area. There are some excellent breeders who are PCA members who don't have websites. You can also contact the breed club, which will typically have a breeder referral contact. 

As for health testing, you should ask for evidence and results of testing, as even good breeders with websites don't post it all online.


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## Angie (Aug 31, 2008)

There is usually a poodle breeder in Ocala with a vendor booth. I can't remember her name (I'm awful with names!)but she is usually set up on the far right of the vendors. She has standards and miniatures. I spoke with her last year and she was very nice and approachable. Have fun!


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## PoodleMomAnew (Dec 22, 2010)

I got my Hunter from Terry of Gulf Breeze but he was bred by Kay Palade (Kaylen) and he is the love of my life and an amazing dog. I would say you can't go wrong there!!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Maybe I have a bit of tunnel vision because I'm in IT, but I think EVERY business, including breeders, should have some sort of web presence. It's fairly simple and cheap to put up a basic site. I like being able to view a breeder's site before deciding to contact him/her for more info; it gives some sense of the direction. If the site is full of pink sparkly lettering and uses 'luv' a lot, I'm pretty sure it's not a breeder I'm interested in :smile:.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

JE-UK said:


> Maybe I have a bit of tunnel vision because I'm in IT, but I think EVERY business, including breeders, should have some sort of web presence. It's fairly simple and cheap to put up a basic site. I like being able to view a breeder's site before deciding to contact him/her for more info; it gives some sense of the direction. If the site is full of pink sparkly lettering and uses 'luv' a lot, I'm pretty sure it's not a breeder I'm interested in :smile:.


The worst beating I've ever taken on a poodle list was when I posted my half-serious/half-joking list of rules about breeders and websites: no stupid kennel names; no excessive purple on websites; and very low tolerance for misspelled words/grammatical errors (especially contributions to the apostrophe crisis!). The one that got me beat up was the comment about purple! Funny thing is, I like purple, and it is Dexter's color. 

I also have a different standard for toy breeders--there seems to be some sort of law that even very solid toy breeders have sparkly websites with music! 

I can name a number of top notch breeders who have no web presence. Most are older and small scale; several are judges now. I've learned about them from going to shows; many are active in their breed clubs and/or members of PCA.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I don't have an issue with purple; it's perfectly fine used tastefully.

There used to be a website/blog that catalogued epic failures in web sites, which I am trying to find again.

In the meantime, for fun, here are two randomly chosen examples, based on a completely unscientific 2 minute Google search.

Great site, from a design & info perspective: Home

Has the info I'm interested in right up front, clean layout, good use of colour (even purple!), good clear photos. 

Conversely, here is one that I find utterly hideous: Becky's Pampered Poodles.

Twirly stuff, blinky stuff, pointless animations, out of focus photos, WAY too many exclamation points. This site gives me a migraine.

I don't know either of these breeders, just randomly chose the sites off a Google search. No idea if the quality of the dogs matches the quality of the sites, but I would be making some pretty quick judgments based on what I see online!


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I like the first one graphically, but there are several grammatical errors in the first paragraph alone.

I lose respect for a business immediately if they can't be bothered to proof-read the materials that represent the face of their business. 

As for the second one: ai-yi-yi! Got a headache immediately. And then noticed that they highlight "teacups and tiny toys." Immediate flashing red-light right there - on top of the migraine-inducing flashing lights they actually have on their site!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

So many people are divided on who is ethical and who is not.

I have run into people that make the statement about breeders with websites, as well as stating breeders that show contribute to the majority of health issues. Many dog lovers do not care for breeders at all because they foster and work at shelters and hate seeing the over population of dogs.

Most of the people are no different then the next they just have different beliefs and we have to determine what ours is. Some people are just too high on their own horse that they could care less what or how others see things:argh:

I think its great to ask all sides -this way you learn. 

I prefer a website for research - the more professional it appears I am likely to stick around once I see testing and pedigrees posted.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Olie said:


> I think its great to ask all sides -this way you learn.
> 
> I prefer a website for research - the more professional it appears I am likely to stick around once I see testing and pedigrees posted.


Yes, honestly I do not see it as being an ethical thing. I don't think that Breeders having websites are unethical.....being only in it for the money.
I just think that in todays age of computers one has to keep up with the times. 

In Canada, the source for finding dog breeders of any variety was the Dogs In Canada Annual edition...however, today, people are more inclined to search their computers for dog breeders then they are to purchase a yearly annual of dog breeders or even go to the library to look at a copy. So even Dogs in Canada is available online now.

As for professional webpages...I agree that they should have all the information that a potential buyer should know about the breeder. The breeders history with the breed, what the breeder does with their dogs (agility, CGN, conformation) etc., and health tests. Some websites are more hightech than others...depends if you hired a webdesigner or used a webtemplate (like breederoo)....some are more low tech but still have all the information you need... (as in my case...designed by my son after taking a html course in highschool).

What really bothers me is the people who honestly think that Breeders are in it for the money grab....LOL...unless you are a high end operation, most money made goes right back into maintaining your breeding program etc.

Myself, and a large portion of other breeders (many on this forum) are in it because we love the breed, and we want to improve it and allow others to learn to love the breed.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Found it .... these guys have been around for a while, and they find the most appalling examples of dripping putrescence on the web ...

Web Pages That Suck - learn good web design by looking at bad web design - Home Page


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