# WANTED: Toy or Miniature Phantom Poodle



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This is not a complete list so be sure to look at the Multi listings too.

Every name on the list has been recommended by a PF member or several, or I have found them by searching thru websites for breeders that the recommended breeder also recommends. Then I went to every website and/or the OFA site and/or a general internet search to verify any health testing done. I only did this initially, before adding them to the list. It's up to the seeker to verify the breeders current standing.

Definitely use the Poodle Clubs for breeder referral too.

What part of the US are you in? That will help for more specific recommendations.









🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com


----------



## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

MJC said:


> Looking for reputable breeder. Have found a few, not so reputable. Lost 18 year old toy in November. 14 year old toy and I are looking for another fur baby to join our family.
> 
> Any recommendations much appreciated!


So sorry for your loss.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

MJC said:


> I truly appreciate all this information. There is a local (1 hour away) breeder. Found him through AKC, and he has all the things on his website you advise to watch out for as bad. PayPal, cost starts at $6000 and goes up from there, ships all over the country, no genetic testing. He has a phantom available as of today, previously reserved, family backed out. I am so confused.


The AKC marketplace requires all the cautions needed when considering any breeder. There are no requirements beyond selling AKC registered puppies (which only indicates that they are 100% poodle - and even that is sometimes not the case) and paying the fee to list. 

$6000 is ludicrous pricing, definitely too high and taking advantage of potential families with severe puppy fever. You could get two puppies from a quality breeder for that price. That alone would rule them out for me. The money is what means most to them. No OFA or genetic testing? They not only care more about the $$, they don't care about the breed. 

If it were me, I'd run.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The longer I think on this, the pricing at $6000 and up makes me wonder if this breeder might be a broker for others puppies.

A method to suss many of them out is to



PeggyTheParti said:


> copy and paste a small block of text from the website into google (adding quotation marks). I choose something that doesn't specifically mention poodles, but ideally has lots of marketing adjectives, such as bragging about how "the cute and precious puppies are raised in a warm and loving family home."
> 
> There will always be exceptions, but some of the most egregious scammers and puppy brokers show up this way, using identical text across multiple websites, each masquerading as an independent breeder.
> 
> Here's an example:





This is my longer breeder criteria list

Breeding Program 
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
https://www.apps.akc.org/apps/store/search/dog_lookup.cfm?returnpage=undefined&_=2770
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits (Covid exceptions but check if they previously had home visits)

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
does the contract/guarantee/warranty rule out covering conditions the parents should have been tested for
do you fully understand the terms of any contract/guarantee/warranty and can you live with them
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"


! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before money changes hands.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.


----------



## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Hi, MJC. I wanted to let you know that you might want to reconsider getting a phantom poodle. The people who breed responsibly are not likely to to have phantoms because the poodle breed standard states that poodles are to be a solid color. I have noticed that in the past year or two there has been a huge increase in people wanting unusual colors or patterns and of breeders touting such puppies as "rare" and "desirable". This kind of thing goes on in all breeds - the labeling of a feature that is against the breed standard as "rare". Of course it's rare - serious breeders work hard to eliminate such features!


----------



## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Agree with everything said so far.

I'm particularly going to echo Johanna's thoughts. I started initially looking for a parti color miniature puppy, as I have a rescue parti color poodle mix who is very poodle like and basically, I just wanted more of her! However, in researching breeders, it was very difficult to find a reputable breeder of mini parti- colors. The more I looked, the more I saw the differences in quality. Eventually I settled on a reputable show breeder who had both a black and a white line. Interestingly, in the litter I had a deposit on, there was an unexpected surprise- a black puppy born with a white blaze! I chose her, it's funny how that worked out.

$6000 is ridiculous and I would run from this "breeder". I paid $2500 for Gracie- that is the going rate for well- bred minis, not sure of exact prices for toys but I'm sure it's not 6000. 

Good luck- it may seem mind- boggling, but doing your research up front will give you the companion you want for 15 years. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum- Rose n Poos has developed a great directory.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

$6000 is crazy high. $4k would be my ceiling for even a pandemic instant gratification price markup.

Compared to Standard poodle breeders, there are a lot fewer decent toy and miniature multi-colored breeders. Phantom breeders would be an even smaller subset of those. 

Moonrise seems to have a decent program for miniature parti-colored.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Tintlet (western NC) has high quality parti and solid minis.


----------



## MJC (Mar 10, 2021)

thank you all for your words of wisdom. I will consider them very seriously. I don't want a light colored pup, and I have a chocolate and lost a black. Can't bring myself to get another black at this time. The black's dad was a phantom and he was beautiful which is why i was going in that direction. Have not looked for a pup in 14 years which is why your insights are so valuable to me. I just want another healthy pup for our family. Thank you again!


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Sorry about your senior dog. Your reason for not wanting solid black makes sense to me.

What is your reason for steering clear of light colored dogs?


----------



## MJC (Mar 10, 2021)

cowpony said:


> Sorry about your senior dog. Your reason for not wanting solid black makes sense to me.
> 
> What is your reason for steering clear of light colored dogs?


I have a thing with the discoloration of fur around the eyes.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

MJC said:


> I have a thing with the discoloration of fur around the eyes


Not trying to sway, just to explain the discoloration, if it's tear stains you're referring to.

They're the result of the saline in tears drying on the fur and reacting by changing the color of the fur, essentially dyeing it unless wiped dry first. It can happen to all colors, just harder to see in the darker colors. Not all poodles have this, and of those that do, it varies in intensity.

_"Tear stains are usually caused by dye molecules called *porphyrins*. Porphyrins are iron-containing molecules, produced when the body breaks down red blood cells. Porphyrins are excreted primarily through bile and the intestinal tract, but *in dogs a significant amount of porphyrin is excreted through tears, saliva and also urine.

When porphyrin containing tears or saliva sits on light fur for any length of time, stains result.* These iron-related stains intensify/darken in the presence of *sunlight*.

All dogs produce porphyrin, but of course porphyrin staining is most noticeable on light colored dogs. If you have ever noticed a light dog who has been licking or chewing on his leg, the hair in that area will turn iron-brown in color as well.

*Primarily, then, most tear stains in most dogs can be simply prevented by keeping the face free of porphyrin-containing tears.* That means keeping the face hair trimmed, and wiping the face at least twice daily with a slightly damp wash cloth, to dilute out and wash away the tears."_

My girls, Holly and Noel, had very noticeable stains and I was lax in daily cleaning to keep the tears from staining, at least as much.

There's speculation over what causes it, what's being fed is one potential cause.

I fed my girls what I thought was a decent food but their tearing was noticeable, as mentioned.

My current light boy, Remo, has hardly noticeable staining. I think partly because his fur is simply a bit darker surrounding his eyes, partly because I keep up much better with cleaning, and maybe because I'm feeding a better kibble and using filtered water.


----------



## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I think the staining is genetic to a certain extent as well. When I visited Gracie's mom ( white mini), I noticed she had no tear staining. The grandmother was there as well (also a white), and she had no tear stains either. I mentioned it to the breeder and she said she would not breed a dog that has tear staining. My friend has a white poodle from this breeder and I see him on a regular basis- and he has no tear stains at all. She does normal grooming with him, but nothing specifically to prevent tear stains. Gracie is black, so I can't speak to it with her, but she has very little tearing, and it doesn't run down her muzzle. 

So- this is another question to ask a breeder, and speaks to the importance of visiting the breeder to verify information, or at least having a reliable second hand source.


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

The only reputable mini breeder of phantoms that I know of is Anna Ash in Florida. I believe we have a member with a phantom from them. I agree with what's been said previously. There are more quality breeders of standard phantoms than the smaller sizes.


----------



## MJC (Mar 10, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Not trying to sway, just to explain the discoloration, if it's tear stains you're referring to.
> 
> They're the result of the saline in tears drying on the fur and reacting by changing the color of the fur, essentially dyeing it unless wiped dry first. It can happen to all colors, just harder to see in the darker colors. Not all poodles have this, and of those that do, it varies in intensity.
> 
> ...


thank you, I know what it is, I just don't like it. Perhaps I'm further on the spectrum of OCD than others. I like things neat and clean. LOL!


----------



## Winston12* (May 1, 2021)

MJC said:


> Looking for reputable breeder. Have found a few, not so reputable. Lost 18 year old toy in November. 14 year old toy and I are looking for another fur baby to join our family.
> 
> Any recommendations much appreciated!


Good morning,
Have you found a toy poodle?


----------



## MJC (Mar 10, 2021)

Winston12* said:


> Good morning,
> Have you found a toy poodle?


I have, he's beautiful! 15 weeks old - 4lbs. 3oz


----------

