# whether to spay before first heat or right after?



## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

I too am battling with this decision. I think, due to risk assesment (seems there are some possible negative side effects for BOTH before and after first heat), I will try for before. Problem is I have to wait for her teeth to be done falling out so we know we can pull any remaining deciduous teeth. So I could be cutting things close since she seems to be taking her sweet time in losing all her teeth 

Rebecca


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

If a bitch experiences even one heat, her risk of mammary cancer increases. If she experiences a heat, you will need to be so careful. Every male in the neighbourhood will want to pay a visit. I would recommend spaying at eight months to avoid the risk of cancer and the risk of an unplanned litter.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Personally, I think that it is better for the dog to allow them to go through one heat. I've done reading on both side of the issue and honestly I feel it makes more sense to allow the dogs' body to mature a bit more and get some of those hormones for growth and development. I have one female who has gone through a heat cycle, and I feel that she is much more physically mature than my other females who didn't. Then again thousands of females are spayed before a heat cycle and live long healthy lives, free of complications. 

There are certainly risks and benefits to both decisions. I feel that many times early alterations are pushed so as to avoid unwanted puppies, but is that in the best interest of the female? I'm just not sure. My old dog died at 10 of mammary cancer...never went through a heat cycle, was spayed at 6 mo. Sometimes I think that cancer is a result more often than not of poor diet and the environment, plus genetics. (do you guys realize how many dogs still eat dog chow and pedigree? A lot! I know my old dog ate that stuff until she was 8 or so, when I started doing more reading and realized how much diet plays into a dogs health.) 

Good luck making a decision! I know that's a hard one...


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I agree with everything mom24doggies posted.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I recently read a research review that found much of the research into spaying and mammary cancer was flawed - which is not to say that the findings were wrong, just perhaps not as reliable as we have all believed. Given the very well attested downside to early spaying, and the treatable nature of mammary tumours if caught early (which they should be in a pet dog with daily interaction and regular checks), I am in the "at least one season" camp.

The effect of neutering on the risk of mammary tumours in dogs – a systematic review - Beauvais - 2012 - Journal of Small Animal Practice - Wiley Online Library
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs


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## annadee (May 15, 2012)

I'd definitely wait until after the first heat. It totally makes sense why you should wait for a dog to stop growing before spaying. I think I'll wait to spay/neuter at least a year next time. I think Max was spayed too early at six months, and think that could have been one factor as to why his joints are so weak. I think waiting is crucial for large dogs especially, but for small dogs it must be important too.
I just typed into Google scholar "costs and benefits of early spay/neuter in dogs" or something along those lines, and read a bunch of papers. I've now read enough research papers to make my decision. Both have costs and benefits... to me, waiting seems to have more, even if it is less convenient for a some time.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

I would discuss with an agreeable vet and try to find the answer that best fits the situation for you and your dog.

If you think you can manage the bitch's heat adequately, spaying her afterwards will mean the hormones from puberty will help to complete her growth and her temperament may be a bit more stable. Heat can be messy and you will need to keep dogs away from her. If a male dog does get to her, he may mate her regardless of whether he has been neutered, and she could get frightened or injured or contract a venereal disease, and if he is entire, you will need to pay for a vet to terminate a possible pregnancy as it would be harmful to her health and the welfare of any puppies born to allow it to continue.

If managing a heat sounds daunting to you, there is no shame in having her spayed before her first heat. Bitches spayed before heat can mature to be a bit leggy as the hormones from puberty fuse the growth plates and help to fill them out. There is some evidence that it reduces the risk of certain cancers.


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

zyrcona said:


> I would discuss with an agreeable vet and try to find the answer that best fits the situation for you and your dog.
> 
> If you think you can manage the bitch's heat adequately, spaying her afterwards will mean the hormones from puberty will help to complete her growth and her temperament may be a bit more stable. Heat can be messy and you will need to keep dogs away from her. If a male dog does get to her, he may mate her regardless of whether he has been neutered, and she could get frightened or injured or contract a venereal disease, and if he is entire, you will need to pay for a vet to terminate a possible pregnancy as it would be harmful to her health and the welfare of any puppies born to allow it to continue.
> 
> If managing a heat sounds daunting to you, there is no shame in having her spayed before her first heat. Bitches spayed before heat can mature to be a bit leggy as the hormones from puberty fuse the growth plates and help to fill them out. There is some evidence that it reduces the risk of certain cancers.


I've managed heats before, it's not that bad imho, and my main concern there is not work on my end, but Sydney not being able to enjoy life for a while and being all stressed out and anxious. I'm certain it will be much easier this time around, because just about every dog is fixed these days. Back when I had girls that went into heat, a lot of dogs in my neighborhood weren't fixed, and we had a small army of dogs camping out in our yard. Plus it's much easier to get diapers and such these days.

My only consideration really is Sydney's health. Right now I'm inclined to wait til after first heat. But if she does get mammary cancer and suffers I won't be able to forgive myself. Man this is hard, I just keep turning it over and over in my mind and can't come to a decision.

But I do not trust vets on this issue. In general, vets' philosophy toward dog issues seems to be, "well there is a larger social policy issue so I'll just lie to individual dog owners in order to further the broader social issue.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

If you haven't already, I would closely read the links to research that FJM posted. Personally, I find the benefits associated with waiting to spay a standard bitch (between 12 and 18 months or maturity) to outweigh the risks associated with spaying early (6-12 months).

I am not generally a person of regrets, but I do *strongly* regret my decision to spay Mil before her first heat. I was persuaded by my vet, by an inexperienced breeder, new to dog ownership, and wanted to play it safe. For now on, all of my standards will be left intact until at least 18 months.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Yeah, the performance world is all about waiting 'til the dog is almost two for altering these days. Seems to be better for long-term growth concerns. 

--Q


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

*I'd wait..*

None of my female standards, past and present, were spayed before their first heat. My first standard was acquired on breeders terms so she actually had a litter of puppies and lived to be 12 yrs.- with never a single health problem until her death. 
My Missy is now 12 .5, and doing wonderfully, considering her age.Harley is 8.5, no health issues related to an early spay either. When I bring home another puppy in the fall, I will definitely wait again until they are mature before spaying. My male was neutered early, around 6 months or so, and he died of a hemangiosarcoma, at 12, which is much rarer in intact dogs.Was it because of an early neuter? I don't know that...
My brother just took his brand new six month old standard puppy for her first health check, and the vet wanted to set up an appointment for the spay..when my brother told her that he too preferred waiting until after her first heat, the vet became very irate and tried to scare him with all that could go wrong. He researched the issue himself and wasn’t dissuaded. I helped
There’s an interesting article on spay and neuter on the TIARA poodle website as well, good information if you are undecided.
Article:  Chris Zink on Early Neutering  ||  TIARA Standard Poodles


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

papoodles said:


> My brother just took his brand new six month old standard puppy for her first health check, and the vet wanted to set up an appointment for the spay..when my brother told her that he too preferred waiting until after her first heat, the vet became very irate and tried to scare him with all that could go wrong.


That's what happened to me. Syd's vet is much better about giving you info and letting you decide, but she was on vacation and so we had to see her partner, and he borderline bullied me on the spay issue. He actually told the vet tech to schedule the spay without even asking me. When I said "uh no I haven't decided yet" he got bulgy eyed and almost angry. He seemed so offended.

He gave me the 26% increased risk of mammary cancer stat, but when I asked him what the baseline risk is, he didn't even know.


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

fjm said:


> I recently read a research review that found much of the research into spaying and mammary cancer was flawed - which is not to say that the findings were wrong, just perhaps not as reliable as we have all believed. Given the very well attested downside to early spaying, and the treatable nature of mammary tumours if caught early (which they should be in a pet dog with daily interaction and regular checks), I am in the "at least one season" camp.
> 
> The effect of neutering on the risk of mammary tumours in dogs – a systematic review - Beauvais - 2012 - Journal of Small Animal Practice - Wiley Online Library
> Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs


Ok finished reading through those, thanks so much fjm. I'm pretty much positive I'm going to wait 1 cycle now. I'm also going to print those out and give it to Syd's vet's partner who was so pushy towards me. It'll piss him off because he's a guy with a stellar rep around here and he's a total diva but I don't care that guy pisses me off.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

taem said:


> But I do not trust vets on this issue. In general, vets' philosophy toward dog issues seems to be, "well there is a larger social policy issue so I'll just lie to individual dog owners in order to further the broader social issue.


I think you need to find better vets, then.  A vet is there to provide you a service. The vet should work with you to find the solution that best works for your situation, not be disrespectful to you.


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

zyrcona said:


> I think you need to find better vets, then.  A vet is there to provide you a service. The vet should work with you to find the solution that best works for your situation, not be disrespectful to you.


The one I go to is pretty good and I actually like her a lot, despite what I said (the guy I talk about is her partner). For example, one of my neighbors has a cat that this vet is a bit worried about in terms of her immune health and other things. So she advised my neighbor to avoid the rabies shot, which isn't even legal I don't think. I don't know that there's another vet on the peninsula who would have done that.

But she's the exception, not the norm. I talked to a lot of vets around here, and I chat with fellow dog owners about the advice they get from vets. Virtually all of them say things like (a) spay at a ridiculously young age; (b) don't feed bones, not even raw chicken bones, because your dog will DIE!; (c) get a ton of vaccinations and annual boosters for all of them.

It's not a question of demeanor; I wouldn't mind a real prick if I could feel confident he's giving me good info and letting me come to informed decisions. But that's not really the sense I get. With most vets, it's, "I know better than you, just do as I say" even if it's presented nicely. I don;t take source like Dogs Naturally at face value but they really make you aware that there is this whole world of canine health information that vets will never ever share with you.

Generally I feel better talking to groomers and breeders and enthusiasts who just have a lot of practical experience.


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

I've known for quite some time that there are definite health benefits to letting Rottweilers go through one heat before spaying. A study done at Purdue found a significant increased risk of osteosarcoma in Rotties spayed or neutered before one year of age. Cancer is the number one killer of Rotties and osteosarcoma is the number one cancer, killing them early.

Cali's breeder and my previous Rottie's breeder both recommended letting Cali go through one heat. Even though she's not a Rottie (but don't tell her that!), she is a dog and I've wondered if there could be some health benefits for small dogs too. My vet and I recently had a discussion about waiting until after a heat to spay Cali. She told me some vets are starting to come round to the idea of spaying after a heat cycle, feeling it might convey some health benefits. She said it is a very contentious topic though and the veterinary community is quite divided on it. She seems to be of the opinion there might be some benefit to waiting and is supportive of my decision to spay after the first heat.


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