# Merle Poodle Father x Bernese Mtn Mother - Seeking opinions on color



## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

Hello,

We just purchased a Bernedoodle who has a beautiful Merle Poodle for a father and Bernese Mountain Dog as a mother. I understand most coloring is inherited (with the exception of white chest and snout is usually inherited from the poodle who in this case I understand has the fading (Mm) gene.

Could anyone please tell me given the attached (father merle poodle photo) and male puppy Bernedoodle photo what its adult color is likely to be? It seems like it has brown in it. nose and eyeliner black... Paws might have some lighter color (have not received the puppy yet...)

Thank you for your help!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Wow. What a complicated assortment of color genes. I'm not sure what your breeder means by fading or that most coloring is inherited from the father. 

Let's start with the Bernese part of the picture. My understanding is all Bernese dogs are black with tan points and a white bib. Your picture shows what looks to me like a puppy with black body, tan points, and white bib. Not surprising in a half Bernese puppy.

Now to the merle part. If the sire is simply merle (I can't tell from the picture) then no fading will occur. My understanding is that merles, if anything, tend to darken with age. If the puppy inherited the merle gene (50% chance,) then it would be a blue merle with tan points. Basically, black & tan with merle adding grey splotches on the black.

Where fading might come into play is if the merle parent is also silver. Silver is a fading gene. All silver dogs start out black. With two copies of the fading gene they develop pale faces within a few weeks of birth. Within a year or two they will have faded to a silvery grey. A single copy of this fading gene will also cause the dog to lighten but not as quickly or as pale. These dogs are referred to as blue. One of my boys is a blue poodle, currently a year and a half old. Right now he has mouse grey rings around his eyes and mouse grey hair around his whiskers. He has silver streaks running down his ear hair. The rest of his body appears black to the casual eye, but it looks rather dusty and faded if you pose him next to a truly black dog.

And, for more fun, welcome to confusion of terms. You will find the word blue is used for different things. Dilute blue is found in Dobes and Pitbulls among other breeds. These blue dogs are born grey with grey noses. Fading blue is found in Poodles and Kerry Blue Terriers. These dogs are born black with black noses and fade to grey in young adulthood, like my boy is doing. Blue merle is basically a black dog with the merle gene adding splotches of grey.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Hi and welcome to you and your new puppy.

I don’t think anyone here can answer your question because your puppy is a mix of several dog breeds Any of which could have genes acting on the colour.

There are no merle poodles, the father of your puppy is a mixed breed dog. In order to get a merle, he is a mix of poodle and one of the dogs that normally carries merle. Merle patterns are naturally occurring in several herding breeds such as shelties and border collies.

Multidrug Resistance Mutation (MDR1) is a very serious problem found in many herding breeds. Many common drugs prescribed for dogs, such as heart and tick medication, seizure treatments etc. if prescribed for a dog with MDR1 could make it sick or dead.

Since you don't know what kind of dog is in your dog's dad’s heritage, you should assume it's possible that your dog might have inherited MDR1 from a herding dog. This is not a genetic problem in properly breed poodles it is coming from the non-poodle mix in the father of your puppy.

My daughter has a rough collie - another breed at risk for MDR1. She had her dog tested and thankfully her dog doesn't have it. I highly suggest you have your dog tested.

Vets know to genetic test certain breeds or refrain from prescribing certain medication. Testing costs money, vets recommend testing to all dogs who potentially could have this gene, but they don’t offer it to dogs breeds like poodles or Bernese Mountain Dogs…. If you just call your puppy a bernedoodles, your vet won’t be aware that there’s a merle herding dog in your puppy as well. 

You probably have a bernesheltiedoodle or a berneborderdoodle. 









MDR1 Genetic Testing: What You Need to Know - Today's Veterinary Nurse


Hidden in the genetic code of many herding-breed dogs is a mutation that increases their susceptibility to drug toxicosis. It is important for veterinary technicians to recognize which dogs are at risk and which drugs to avoid or administer with a reduced dose.




todaysveterinarynurse.com


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

cowpony said:


> Wow. What a complicated assortment of color genes. I'm not sure what your breeder means by fading or that most coloring is inherited from the father.
> 
> Let's start with the Bernese part of the picture. My understanding is all Bernese dogs are black with tan points and a white bib. Your picture shows what looks to me like a puppy with black body, tan points, and white bib. Not surprising in a half Bernese puppy.
> 
> ...


---Oh I mentioned the "fading" but I have limited knowledge and understand with poodle/bernese mixes when the poodle is a merle tends to have darkening of the colors? In this case maybe the paws will become more dark caramel like the bernese mom? I know so much going into it, thank you so much for replying! Spending so much on this puppy I can't help but be really curious. Here is mom in case that helps....


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

Oh and great point, I don't think bernese carry a fading gene, so it sounds ike the puppies brown points may get darker like moms? Thank you so much for your help on this!!


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

Bernedoodle said:


> Oh and great point, I don't think bernese carry a fading gene, so it sounds ike the puppies brown points may get darker like moms? Thank you so much for your help on this!!


...so parts of the black would likely go grey if it has the merle gene?


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

Bernedoodle said:


> ...so parts of the black would likely go grey if it has the merle gene?


...Father poodle is Mm so I think that means he carries the merle gene....


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

That's an interesting pair to breed...


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Bernedoodle said:


> ---Oh I mentioned the "fading" but I have limited knowledge and understand with poodle/bernese mixes when the poodle is a merle tends to have darkening of the colors? In this case maybe the paws will become more dark caramel like the bernese mom? I know so much going into it, thank you so much for replying! Spending so much on this puppy I can't help but be really curious. Here is mom in case that helps....


Poodle people have limited experience with merle too, as it's not a color accepted in poodle registries at all. I'm going off what some of my friends with Aussies and Catahoulas have told me. It's commonly believed that merle got into the poodle gene pool via an outcross to a herding dog and some hinky business with registration papers.

Poodles do, very rarely, come in tricolor like a Berner. The poodle term for the would be phantom (meaning the black & tan pattern) abstract (meaning the white chest). Neither phantom nor abstract are encouraged in AKC or CKC. Dogs with these patterns cannot be shown in conformation, but they are permitted in performance events. UKC does permit phantom and abstract in separate conformation classes. My understanding is that merle does not affect red color at all. So no, the merle gene would not affect the tan points to make them more or less intense. The merle gene would simply give the dog splotches of grey on any black parts of the body. However, the poodle side of the family could also have contributed a gene that would lighten the dark red to cream.

Really, it's very difficult to say without genetic testing, and even then some of the genes in this pairing don't show up properly in tests. I can't imagine doing a weirder color cross than these two parents. Honestly, it's pretty hard to guarantee anything out of this pairing besides large and hairy.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Looks like the puppy has sable or brindle points instead of tan. 

If the sire is merle, and produces non-merle puppies, then he has to be Mm. If he was MM, then all the puppies would be merle, plus he would likely have a host of health issues related to the merle gene. 

There is another gene besides M that produces merle, but it's very uncommon. Probably 99.9% of merle dogs are the result of the M locus.


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## Cookiesmom (Mar 4, 2021)

Skylar said:


> Hi and welcome to you and your new puppy.
> 
> I don’t think anyone here can answer your question because your puppy is a mix of several dog breeds Any of which could have genes acting on the colour.
> 
> ...


Very good point, I had a collie we had to get tested as a previous dog in the family had that issue and passed from flea meds…


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

This sounds like a case for Embark.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Cookiesmom said:


> Very good point, I had a collie we had to get tested as a previous dog in the family had that issue and passed from flea meds…


I didn’t know this gene existed until my daughter got a rough collie and her vet explained it to her. This mutation is not linked to the merle pattern itself, but it’s in breeds that can have a merle pattern.

Sadly we have unscrupulous greeders claiming a poodle mated with a merle breed gives you 100% poodle. It’s one thing when the offspring puppy has a merle pattern - it’s clear to anyone knowledgeable that this is not 100% poodle. It’s clear to the vet that they need to have the dog tested, or they have to be careful prescribing common medication that otherwise would be safe. The danger comes in some colors of poodles such as apricot that may mask a merle pattern. You think you bought a 100% apricot poodle and that’s what you tell the vet. Vet looks at dog, doesn’t see a merle pattern. Vet knows that poodles don’t have this mutation so they don’t suggest spending money for a test poodles don’t need. They prescribe routine medication and the puppy becomes ill or dies.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Others here are more informed about color genetics, but if I had to guess I would say that your puppy's father has both merle and sable or some kind of fading gene in there (he looks very light anyway), and your puppy has inherited the sable or fading bit but not the merle bit. Merle and fading can be inherited separately I believe. If they inherited the M from the dad's Mm, I think you would see a merle pattern on a primarily black dog since black is not known to hide merle. In my dog's litter (white mom, merle dad) the puppies were very obviously merle or solids black with mismarks - this tracks with what you would expect from a Mm dad and mm mom. It will be interesting to see how the puppy changes. I've seen bernedoodles that have classical bernese coloring, and I've seen black and white, and red and white. But in the many doodles in my area, I've only seen merle in the aussiedoodles.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

It makes me crazy to hear about people purposely breeding mongrels with no knowledge of breed characteristics or genetics. Color is the least important thing when breeding! Breeding merles of any breed is inherently risky if the person does not know about the color-linked genes.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

I am much more concerned about the size difference in that pairing. Have you talked to your vet about bone and joint health? A lot of it is genetics but i think there are some things owners can do to help. Such as exercise and nutrition (especially what not to do) but its something one must get a qualified opinion from a vet about.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I would be concerned about the short life span of the Bernese Mountain Dog which is about 6 to 8 years, they have high rate of cancer within the breed, also neither parent would ever be best representatives of their breeds


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

twyla said:


> I would be concerned about the short life span of the Bernese Mountain Dog which is about 6 to 8 years, they have high rate of cancer within the breed, also neither parent would ever be best representatives of their breeds


Oh the mother I am not too concerned about she is a former champion purebred. I have heard mixed thoughts on pure poodles being merle though, so that is a bit of a concern. Both purebreds could have issues I understand. I am going to ask the breeder to confirm the father is a purebred.  Thank you all so very much for input!


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

Oonapup said:


> Others here are more informed about color genetics, but if I had to guess I would say that your puppy's father has both merle and sable or some kind of fading gene in there (he looks very light anyway), and your puppy has inherited the sable or fading bit but not the merle bit. Merle and fading can be inherited separately I believe. If they inherited the M from the dad's Mm, I think you would see a merle pattern on a primarily black dog since black is not known to hide merle. In my dog's litter (white mom, merle dad) the puppies were very obviously merle or solids black with mismarks - this tracks with what you would expect from a Mm dad and mm mom. It will be interesting to see how the puppy changes. I've seen bernedoodles that have classical bernese coloring, and I've seen black and white, and red and white. But in the many doodles in my area, I've only seen merle in the aussiedoodles.


Thank you so much for that! I understand the merle bernedoodle is very new and have not seen any myself so that would make sense. So you think it is likely the fading gene or the puppy will have sable markings. I am curious did the black puppies in your mix with the merle father fade or start to mark when they got older? I am guessing this one may remain black from the bernedoodle on his back since there does not seem to be a lighter or different color undercoat but I don't have any experience with this. I really wanted the tricolor but have already waited so long and its a good time for our family to have a new member. ... Thank you!


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Bernedoodle said:


> I am going to ask the breeder to confirm the father is a purebred.


The breeder can confirm all they want, the fact is the father is not a purebred because merle is not a color that occurs in purebred poodles.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I wish the OP a happy healthy life with their puppy. However the whole idea that there are people breeding these ridiculous crosses (and in this case from a ridiculous sire who himself is a mutt) and passing them off as something special (this is a litter of mutts) just makes me very mad and very sad. There is no honest way for the "breeder" to confirm the sire is a purebred since merle cannot exist in poodles.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

The merle puppies I have seen (of various breeds) could usually be told from quite young (occasionally the merling is so minimal that you can't see it until they get bigger). So I don't think your pup will have that. 
The Mm is the merle gene, the fading gene is separate. Hard to tell on that piv of the dad, but he looks silver? As in the parts that would be black are light grey. In that case your pup would also have some fading of his black areas, but likely to dark grey and over a few years.
How old is your pup now? It's a lot easier to determine color when they are a bit older, at 8 weeks or so.
My guess is that your pup will be patterned like the mom (tricolor) but that the black will eventually fade a bit to dark grey.


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

Starvt said:


> The merle puppies I have seen (of various breeds) could usually be told from quite young (occasionally the merling is so minimal that you can't see it until they get bigger). So I don't think your pup will have that.
> The Mm is the merle gene, the fading gene is separate. Hard to tell on that piv of the dad, but he looks silver? As in the parts that would be black are light grey. In that case your pup would also have some fading of his black areas, but likely to dark grey and over a few years.
> How old is your pup now? It's a lot easier to determine color when they are a bit older, at 8 weeks or so.
> My guess is that your pup will be patterned like the mom (tricolor) but that the black will eventually fade a bit to dark grey.


Oh the pup is still quite young 3-4 weeks. Yes, its true the merles look merle as soon as they are born. Great points! Thank you!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

One more thought: It looks as if the poodle sire is a miniature. Breeding dogs with such extreme size differences is likely to cause some pretty unusual, if not serious, bone structure. Such breeding is certainly not adviseable.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Bernedoodle said:


> Thank you so much for that! I understand the merle bernedoodle is very new and have not seen any myself so that would make sense. So you think it is likely the fading gene or the puppy will have sable markings. I am curious did the black puppies in your mix with the merle father fade or start to mark when they got older? I am guessing this one may remain black from the bernedoodle on his back since there does not seem to be a lighter or different color undercoat but I don't have any experience with this. I really wanted the tricolor but have already waited so long and its a good time for our family to have a new member. ... Thank you!


The black puppy I have has not faded though she is getting a few white guard hair here and there. You have to look closely though, she still looks pretty inky black. She came with a white chest marking, front toes (one foot more than the other) and a tiny bit on her chin. The fading and the merle are inherited separately. I believe her sire has a merle gene that modifies the melanin in his skin and coat, producing a mottled merle pattern in what would otherwise have been a black dog.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

I would back out of the sale. I have serious doubts about the future health of this litter. The mother being a champion bernese tells you nothing about the possible health problems of this mix.

I have had mixed breed dog and he had a complete random mix of the qualities of the breeds that he was composed off. When you breed together dogs of such different body builds and size you have no idea how that will come together and the consequences for the puppies health. These are health issues you wont know about until the pup is older. Hip dysplasia and other joint and bone issues are extremely expensive not to mention painful and limiting. Usually I would ask if the parents were health tested but I think in this pairing it wouldnt even matter because an excellent rated hip in a bernese mother means nothing for the puppies if she is mated with a poodle...


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I know a local bernedoodle (standard) with the fading gene. He started out classically tricolor but over time has faded to a general gray color. His owner is upset because she says she paid extra 🙄 for a tricolor puppy and now he doesn't even look tricolor. 

I won't comment on bernedoodles any more but will say this dog's owner is constantly complaining about how much he sheds. He has a fluffy poodle type coat but still sheds a great deal because he is a mix. She wishes she had gone with a smaller non shedding breed.


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## Pavie (May 4, 2021)

Are you sure the father (poodle) is merle? He looks like a silver poodle in the photo. My understanding is that merle creates mottled patches of color in a solid, but the photo looks like he is only one color.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Pavie said:


> Are you sure the father (poodle) is merle? He looks like a silver poodle in the photo. My understanding is that merle creates mottled patches of color in a solid, but the photo looks like he is only one color.


I see the merle on his face. Would probably be much more obvious if he was clipped short. Gracie’s spots really _popped_ when she was freshly shaved. (She was a quarter dappled—aka merle—dachshund.)


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## Pavie (May 4, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I see the merle on his face. Would probably be much more obvious if he was clipped short. Gracie’s spots really _popped_ when she was freshly shaved. (She was a quarter dappled—aka merle—dachshund.)


Oh, I see it now. Had to zoom in on the face.


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## Nromley (Jan 5, 2019)

Color should be the least of your concerns with this puppy. No reputable breeder would ever mix breeds, let alone this pair. I don’t think the sire is a purebred, and he does look like a mini. Why in the world would anyone think this a good idea? I would also recommend you walk away and find another puppy from a reputable breeder. This puppy looks like a world of potential problems.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

When you have a mix you can't tell what is going to happen. I am puzzled as to why someone would deliberately do that.

And there is no such breed as a bernadoodle, or any other doodle.


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## Kathryn (Jun 5, 2021)

I, too, would walk away from this pup. He is a mongrel, most likely facing a life of health problems. The odds are not in his favor for reasons already stated by other posters. You need to accept the FACT that the sire is NOT a poodle - there is no such thing as a "merle poodle," regardless of what your breeder tells you. I really wish these unqualified and greedy breeders would STOP breeding these so-called "designer breeds." They are MONGRELS and they damage the breed. Reputable breeders try to ENHANCE the breed. Big difference.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Point made and can be elaborated on in other threads. Let’s focus any further comments here on the very specific question posed by the OP.


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## Blue standard bitch (Jul 5, 2021)

sorry but a lot of people in poodles including my self hate doodles it's not ethical to breed them especially benerdoodles. also merle is not a naturally occurring color in poodles


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

There’s a fine line between being helpful and being hurtful. Belabouring a point is hurtful.

Lots for the OP to consider here, should they decide to visit us again. I hope they do. For now I’ll go ahead and lock this thread.


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