# "No petting zone" per Phoebe



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I don't think not wanting to be petted is necessarily a problem, especially as she is removing herself rather than being more assertive about saying No. I don't particularly want to be stroked and hugged by everyone I meet, either! She may find it less aversive if people crouch down and let her approach them, rather than looming over her and reaching down - many dogs find this unpleasant. Once used to greeting and being greeted by polite people on her own level she may become more tolerant of the rude individuals who bend over her, but I would go with her preferences.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

fjm said:


> I don't think not wanting to be petted is necessarily a problem, especially as she is removing herself rather than being more assertive about saying No. I don't particularly want to be stroked and hugged by everyone I meet, either! She may find it less aversive if people crouch down and let her approach them, rather than looming over her and reaching down - many dogs find this unpleasant. Once used to greeting and being greeted by polite people on her own level she may become more tolerant of the rude individuals who bend over her, but I would go with her preferences.


There's only been one person that she was comfortable with. An old man we've never seen before. He crouched down and was able to scratch behind her ear and she just curled around his hand. She hasn't even done that with the ladies that crouch. Because others have tried the crouch method. I didn't press it this morning, just told everyone she'll sniff and treat and no pets. The most I could handle today was the loose leash walking. She does pretty good with that, but it takes daily work to maintain right now.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Oona doesn’t like stranger pets either. She visits and sniffs and then bounces back to me, as if to say, “Fine, I did it, can I have a treat and let’s get out of here?” Sometimes she will take to someone more. I’ve found if we are in one place like in our house, she warms up a lot faster to guests when she can visit with them sitting down and she able to move around, unlike our out of the house greetings where she’s usually leashed and they can move. In those cases she sometimes starts mooching pets and scratches in a few minutes.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Forget about it some dogs just don't like being petted nothing wrong with it, 4 out of 7 of my poodles didn't want to be petted, it's perfectly fine to tell people no. Some people and I mean strangers my poodles make a bee line for, more often than not these people have poodle or know poodles.
Lenny doesn't like most people to pet him, takes him awhile to warm up to people, Pia loves certain people, yep those strangers.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

@Oonapup DH's daughter and son-in-law have come by a couple times. Sniff and treat, no pet, even in our house after multiple visits. Her tail wags the whole time, but she is determined to maintain her personal space. I've never had a (non-reactive) dog do that before. I guess I'm a little confused since that's a new one on me. 

The one thing I'm determined to work on is how she reacts to kids. DH has 2 little monsters, I mean grandsons. 7/8yrs old maybe? Untrained. Loud. Shrieky. She hasn't met them yet. I'm not looking forward to that, but I'd like to make sure she has some positive meets and greets before we have the invasion. So we've been stopping by the local daycare for treats. She'll sniff, she'll treat. So we have some positives. It would be nice for her to learn to accept a petting though.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

PhoebeDuck said:


> @Oonapup DH's daughter and son-in-law have come by a couple times. Sniff and treat, no pet, even in our house after multiple visits. Her tail wags the whole time, but she is determined to maintain her personal space. I've never had a (non-reactive) dog do that before. I guess I'm a little confused since that's a new one on me.
> 
> The one thing I'm determined to work on is how she reacts to kids. DH has 2 little monsters, I mean grandsons. 7/8yrs old maybe? Untrained. Loud. Shrieky. She hasn't met them yet. I'm not looking forward to that, but I'd like to make sure she has some positive meets and greets before we have the invasion. So we've been stopping by the local daycare for treats. She'll sniff, she'll treat. So we have some positives. It would be nice for her to learn to accept a petting though.


I hear you. I think you’re doing the right thing by giving her agency and banking positive experiences. She may be on the shyer side and it’s better to accept and work with it gradually than to force things when she’s not ready. When she knows “touch” and other behaviors, that can be a thing to get strangers to have her do for a treat. Sit, touch, etc. Oona still avoids pets from most strangers but will enthusiastically do nose boops for treats.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Oonapup said:


> I hear you. I think you’re doing the right thing by giving her agency and banking positive experiences. She may be on the shyer side and it’s better to accept and work with it gradually than to force things when she’s not ready. When she knows “touch” and other behaviors, that can be a thing to get strangers to have her do for a treat. Sit, touch, etc. Oona still avoids pets from most strangers but will enthusiastically do nose boops for treats.


Phoebe will sit and wave her paw with no probs if it's an adult (or adult-ish) person asking for it. Kids are a foreign species that she would rather avoid entirely. Hence the trips to the daycare. Sniff kid, take treat, everyone's semi happy. Reinforce the positives. 

There is a cute little deaf girl at the daycare on Monday mornings that is painfully shy. She so wanted to give Phoebe a treat, and we finally succeeded after a couple visits. Girl's entire body lit up. Phoebe's focus was locked on her at that point. I guess I'll just stick with sniff & treat and be happy with that. If she takes a petting, yay. And I'll probably have to hide her from DH's little monsters. They are typical little boys and probably beyond what she can handle right now.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

twyla said:


> Forget about it some dogs just don't like being petted nothing wrong with it, 4 out of 7 of my poodles didn't want to be petted, it's perfectly fine to tell people no. Some people and I mean strangers my poodles make a bee line for, more often than not these people have poodle or know poodles.
> Lenny doesn't like most people to pet him, takes him awhile to warm up to people, Pia loves certain people, yep those strangers.


Forgetting about it. 🫤 I'm guessing this is the "reserved" part of her being a poodle.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Regarding the kids, I have a game I play with my neighbor kids. I provide two or three kids with a handful of high value treats and space them 25 feet apart. Then I have the kids take turns calling the puppy and requesting a sit. The puppy gets a treat each time he sits in front of the kid. No treat for going to the wrong kid without being called. No treat until sitting. This helps install some discipline in both kid and puppy. The kid needs to gauge when the puppy is politely sitting and therefore deserving of a treat. The kid also learns to pay attention to when someone else is calling the puppy. The puppy learns not to mug the kid.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> Regarding the kids, I have a game I play with my neighbor kids. I provide two or three kids with a handful of high value treats and space them 25 feet apart. Then I have the kids take turns calling the puppy and requesting a sit. The puppy gets a treat each time he sits in front of the kid. No treat for going to the wrong kid without being called. No treat until sitting. This helps install some discipline in both kid and puppy. The kid needs to gauge when the puppy is politely sitting and therefore deserving of a treat. The kid also learns to pay attention to when someone else is calling the puppy. The puppy learns not to mug the kid.


I might try this when they come over. The grandkids are more likely to be the muggers than to be in danger of getting mugged by puppy. I do know which treats to use, though. Thank you for the suggestion! I appreciate it.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

A game I have played which can help with very "exuberant" children is a variant on Statues - you call Sit! and everyone has to sit, children included. Or Wait! and all freeze. Treats for fastest, best, etc so everyone gets enough prizes to keep them interested. With children not used to dogs teaching them to stand safely - upright, eyes skywards or down, hands tucked away - is a useful skill, so making that the position to freeze in is a good idea. Sending them links to videos like these in advance of their visit may also be useful:


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

fjm said:


> A game I have played which can help with very "exuberant" children is a variant on Statues - you call Sit! and everyone has to sit, children included. Or Wait! and all freeze. Treats for fastest, best, etc so everyone gets enough prizes to keep them interested. With children not used to dogs teaching them to stand safely - upright, eyes skywards or down, hands tucked away - is a useful skill, so making that the position to freeze in is a good idea. Sending them links to videos like these in advance of their visit may also be useful:


I'll look at the video, thank you! The grandkids have two dogs of their own (a GSD and a boxer/Pitt type mix). But not a single one in the group (human or canine) is well trained. The visits are not frequent, thankfully. And they learned the hard way not to bring their dogs over, so it's just the kids that I have to worry about. Thank you for the suggestions. I'll keep them in mind for when the invasion begins.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

It is also totally reasonable to plan to keep the puppy and kids separate with gates/doors/xpens/crate during some or all of the visit, if Phoebe will tolerate being separate from the action. If she tends to like her space she may appreciate being able to observe the kids without worrying about them getting closer than she is comfortable with. It also gives you a break from actively managing the kids and the dog. When kids come over to our house, this is what we now do for any period of time when I don't want to actively supervise. They're just too exciting for Oona at the moment because she hasn't had enough regular interaction with kids other than ours.


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## Haitch (6 mo ago)

Dogs and people have totally different methods of greeting , just watch two dogs approach each other , often slightly sideways on , heads turned away . 
It’s actually rude the way people approach dogs , great big hands looming over the dogs head , and who wants to be patted on the head either . 
I get down , crouch down , don’t stare , and if they seem accepting touch their chest or side of the head . 
we had a guard dog , looked like a great big teddy bear , and the amount of eejits that would reach across me to touch her , in spite of my warnings ..she made contact a couple of times …eeek . With children though she was as good as good , and could have a mass of them all hugging and stroking


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

@Haitch With our rescue, Frannie, strangers give her a wide berth. The younger daughter (the one with the kids in question) saw her when Frannie was first with us and said "that's a mean looking dog." And then she brought over her untrained 1 yr old GSD. Against my explicit instructions. Frannie went for its throat. So that's the level of thinking I'm dealing with here. Only it's the daughter's little boys I'm prepping for. Fran is ok with kids, is actually protective of them, but even she tries to avoid these two. She doesn't like shrieky and hides.

@Oonapup I don't have room for an x-pen. So she's either going to be in the fray (high stress!) Or howling in her kennel upstairs. That's why I'm trying to get her as many good experiences with kids as possible. Because I don't know how things will go with the gkids. They are pushing for a meeting soon, though, so I'm here for ideas on how to handle.

I actually started out with wondering about getting her used to being petted in general, but this is more important than that, so here we are.


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## Haitch (6 mo ago)

Difficult to know what to do, I mean there are people I don’t like either ! Yet some folks expect dogs to just like everyone.
our latest pup had loads of kids visit whilst still at the breeders, she had lots of grandchildren of various ages and they went most days , he loves kids and is interested in people . That I say thanks to his breeder . Our other dog loves children , tolerates other people he doesn’t know , but isn’t fussed either .
I remember being bitten by a dog , fox terrier, must have been around 5-7 , I was at his house , bouncing about waiting to go out with him and his owner . I guess I learnt something that day , though never put me off dogs.
I think it’s people who need educating more than the dogs ! 
problem now , someones dog bites and it can be off to the vets for euthanasia , fair enough with some of the bully breeds etc , but it seems the dog never gets a fair trial , it’s always it’s fault . We had a warning lead etc , and you can buy harness , vests etc that say this dog bites for another dog we had , fine with kids , people , not dogs . So that was no help was it , apart from buying the warning coat/lead etc


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## Pavie (May 4, 2021)

I think it's definitely possible to train her that being petted is not a big deal, if you really want that. It may be easier to start with friends first. If it's easier to tell people that she doesn't like pets, that's totally fine too. Maybe it's finding the right balance for your goals and lifestyle. You will encounter people who don't ask first or children who don't know better, and these can be hard to avoid. But I also agree it's important to stand up for your dog and advocate for their space to strangers. Every time you do so will be good education for the public that one should always ask first.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Haitch said:


> Difficult to know what to do, I mean there are people I don’t like either ! Yet some folks expect dogs to just like everyone.
> our latest pup had loads of kids visit whilst still at the breeders, she had lots of grandchildren of various ages and they went most days , he loves kids and is interested in people . That I say thanks to his breeder . Our other dog loves children , tolerates other people he doesn’t know , but isn’t fussed either .
> I remember being bitten by a dog , fox terrier, must have been around 5-7 , I was at his house , bouncing about waiting to go out with him and his owner . I guess I learnt something that day , though never put me off dogs.
> I think it’s people who need educating more than the dogs !
> problem now , someones dog bites and it can be off to the vets for euthanasia , fair enough with some of the bully breeds etc , but it seems the dog never gets a fair trial , it’s always it’s fault . We had a warning lead etc , and you can buy harness , vests etc that say this dog bites for another dog we had , fine with kids , people , not dogs . So that was no help was it , apart from buying the warning coat/lead etc


Phoebe isn't nippy, she just dodges people's hands. And I don't take Fran out unless necessary anymore. She's old enough now (turning grey) that we let her stay home where she's comfortable. Phoebe gets taken places instead. Hence the petting vs no petting issue.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Pavie said:


> I think it's definitely possible to train her that being petted is not a big deal, if you really want that. It may be easier to start with friends first. If it's easier to tell people that she doesn't like pets, that's totally fine too. Maybe it's finding the right balance for your goals and lifestyle. You will encounter people who don't ask first or children who don't know better, and these can be hard to avoid. But I also agree it's important to stand up for your dog and advocate for their space to strangers. Every time you do so will be good education for the public that one should always ask first.


I would like her to tolerate being petted because at some point, someone is going to mess with her, whether they are kid or adult. And I don't want to worry about her becoming fear reactive. I've started telling people "she will sniff and treat, but doesn't like pets." So they will do that first, and then try to pet after. Like anything has changed in the last 30 seconds. 🙄 Not everyone is like that though. There are people who listen. But she needs to know how to react to those that don't understand boundaries.


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## Pavie (May 4, 2021)

PhoebeDuck said:


> I would like her to tolerate being petted because at some point, someone is going to mess with her, whether they are kid or adult. And I don't want to worry about her becoming fear reactive. I've started telling people "she will sniff and treat, but doesn't like pets." So they will do that first, and then try to pet after. Like anything has changed in the last 30 seconds. 🙄 Not everyone is like that though. There are people who listen. But she needs to know how to react to those that don't understand boundaries.


Yeah, that makes sense, and I definitely believe that it is possible to train her to tolerate pets. How does she do with you petting her? Or the groomer messing with their hair? 

It's not always easy to get others to cooperate with training or petting her in a specific way, but if you can desensitize her to your own pets in her "no pet zones" it would be a good place to start.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Personally, I'm not big on being touched by strangers.

Of course, I've never encountered George Clooney.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Pavie said:


> Yeah, that makes sense, and I definitely believe that it is possible to train her to tolerate pets. How does she do with you petting her? Or the groomer messing with their hair?
> 
> It's not always easy to get others to cooperate with training or petting her in a specific way, but if you can desensitize her to your own pets in her "no pet zones" it would be a good place to start.


Me or DH petting her, no boundaries. I can do ears, feet, tail, rough house, she's all for it. Anyone else? She dodges. She doesn't have a groomer, I diy out of necessity. She was not thrilled with the vets touching her, but stayed calm. She tried dodging initially and it didn't work, but she didn't squirm either.


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## JasMom (7 mo ago)

She may never enjoy being petted by others and that's okay. I think you are right on track to give her these positive experiences even if she won't let people pet her. 

As for the children, I completely understand where you are coming from. Jasper just recently met my youngest niece and nephew. They are like a tornado coming through. Our Greyhounds have never been around children so those meetings were on leash and very brief. Jasper enjoyed the rambunctious play (outside). Maybe that could be the rule: inside my house you are quiet and calm (no running, no yelling). Outside you can play differently with the puppy. Or, if she isn't comfortable being around them then it's okay for her to be in her crate for their visit.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

We taught puppy Peggy to associate head pats and back grabs with yummy things, and we still regularly reinforce this. But we also protect her personal space as best we can while out and about. We always ensure she has plenty of room to back up or move away, and we’ve taught her a “Say hello!” command, which means approach for a brief touch and then return safely to us for a treat.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> We taught puppy Peggy to associate head pats and back grabs with yummy things, and we still regularly reinforce this. But we also protect her personal space as best we can while out and about. We always ensure she has plenty of room to back up or move away, and we’ve taught her a “Say hello!” command, which means approach for a brief touch and then return safely to us for a treat.


I'll keep this in mind. Thank you!!


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

JasMom said:


> She may never enjoy being petted by others and that's okay. I think you are right on track to give her these positive experiences even if she won't let people pet her.
> 
> As for the children, I completely understand where you are coming from. Jasper just recently met my youngest niece and nephew. They are like a tornado coming through. Our Greyhounds have never been around children so those meetings were on leash and very brief. Jasper enjoyed the rambunctious play (outside). Maybe that could be the rule: inside my house you are quiet and calm (no running, no yelling). Outside you can play differently with the puppy. Or, if she isn't comfortable being around them then it's okay for her to be in her crate for their visit.


Nice to hear I'm on the right track. 🙂. I'm taking all the suggestions here and will use them when we go out. Much appreciated!!


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> We taught puppy Peggy to associate head pats and back grabs with yummy things, and we still regularly reinforce this. But we also protect her personal space as best we can while out and about. We always ensure she has plenty of room to back up or move away, and we’ve taught her a “Say hello!” command, which means approach for a brief touch and then return safely to us for a treat.


How did you teach head pats are ok? When possible, Phoebe sniffs feet, hand, gets a "sit" command, then treat when she sits. But she bounces up and backs away immediately. So we repeat with another treat. At least she's learning strangers are not to be feared.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Annie loved people as a pup but doesn't enjoy most strangers as an adult. At about 6 months, she started only approaching strangers when I encouraged, and that wasn't something I taught her. 

One thing I've worked on is teaching her to sit and stand on either side of me or behind me, so close that she is touching, or under my chair, and even to back into tight spaces. When I take her to visit my grandma in a retirement home it means she isn't pet by every passing person and doesn't have her tail run over by a walker. If someone asks to pet her and looks nice, I usually say something like : 

'Lets ask her, but she probably just wants to sniff your hands, she's not a big fan of petting'. They hold out their hands,I tell her to 'go see' and she excitedly sniffs, bounces back, and wags her tail. I make sure I leave room for her to retreat, and have her approach them. It works well enough for us and helps prevent the 'grabbing'. 

If I walk past someone on the sidewalk, I switch so I'm on the inside between her and the person.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

PhoebeDuck said:


> How did you teach head pats are ok? When possible, Phoebe sniffs feet, hand, gets a "sit" command, then treat when she sits. But she bounces up and backs away immediately. So we repeat with another treat. At least she's learning strangers are not to be feared.


Disclaimer: We didn’t teach this so we can pet her whenever and wherever we feel like it, or so that others can pet her whenever or wherever they feel like it. We did it because life happens and we didn’t want her feeling threatened when it did. We noticed early on that she was particularly unenthusiastic about pets and grabs on her lower back, so we knew she needed our help here if she was going to comfortably navigate the world of humans.

Initial training was done with the clicker. But mostly we just use treats and/or play. And always this contact is kept to a minimum, even while training.

Now she’ll frequently solicit contact with all parts of her body, but she’d still mostly prefer no head pets. Gentle ear and neck scratches are a good alternative, but most people don’t seem to get this. We had a large family gathering yesterday, all from out-of-state, and almost everyone enthusiastically pet her head, sometimes in a way that honestly looked rather painful. Because we were in a wide open space, I didn’t intervene and Peggy handled herself beautifully. As the event progressed, I noticed how she actually trained _them _to interact more appropriately.  Positive reinforcement works on humans, too.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

PhoebeDuck said:


> The grandkids have two dogs of their own (a GSD and a boxer/Pitt type mix). But not a single one in the group (human or canine) is well trained. The visits are not frequent, thankfully. And they learned the hard way not to bring their dogs over, so it's just the kids that I have to worry about. Thank you for the suggestions. I'll keep them in mind for when the invasion begins.


I think sometimes ill mannered kids with dogs at home are even worse than kids without dogs. They assume all dogs are as tolerant as their own family pets. Plus, the poor manners often stem from parents who themselves lack discipline, so the parents aren't keeping an eye on what their spawn are up to.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

PhoebeDuck said:


> How did you teach head pats are ok? When possible, Phoebe sniffs feet, hand, gets a "sit" command, then treat when she sits. But she bounces up and backs away immediately. So we repeat with another treat. At least she's learning strangers are not to be feared.


Have you considered having people ask for a handshake instead? Or even a spin or a nose-to-palm touch? All of these alternatives would allow Phoebe to quickly reclaim her personal space without reinforcing the habit of breaking a sit. That’s why I like the “Go say hi” command. It’s got a built-in retreat.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Disclaimer: We didn’t teach this so we can pet her whenever and wherever we feel like it, or so that others can pet her whenever or wherever they feel like it. We did it because life happens and we didn’t want her feeling threatened when it did. We noticed early on that she was particularly unenthusiastic about pets and grabs on her lower back, so we knew she needed our help here if she was going to comfortably navigate the world of humans.
> 
> Initial training was done with the clicker. But mostly we just use treats and/or play. And always this contact is kept to a minimum, even while training.
> 
> Now she’ll frequently solicit contact with all parts of her body, but she’d still mostly prefer no head pets. Gentle ear and neck scratches are a good alternative, but most people don’t seem to get this. We had a large family gathering yesterday, all from out-of-state, and almost everyone enthusiastically pet her head, sometimes in a way that honestly looked rather painful. Because we were in a wide open space, I didn’t intervene and Peggy handled herself beautifully. As the event progressed, I noticed how she actually trained _them _to interact more appropriately.  Positive reinforcement works on humans, too.


My main concern is precisely that... That she would get the unexpected pet and react poorly. I don't want her afraid. She's my sidekick and she knows it. Good to know it might not be the big deal I was thinking it was. She doesn't react in fear currently, will approach strangers on her own without prompting, takes treats, just doesn't like being touched.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Have you considered having people ask for a handshake instead? Or even a spin or a nose-to-palm touch? All of these alternatives would allow Phoebe to quickly reclaim her personal space without reinforcing the habit of breaking a sit. That’s why I like the “Go say hi” command. It’s got a built-in retreat.


She automatically does sit/shake combined. DH was teaching the paw and she no longer waits to be asked. You're right, another trick that people could ask for would be helpful. How did you teach "hi"...?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

PhoebeDuck said:


> My main concern is precisely that... That she would get the unexpected pet and react poorly. I don't want her afraid. She's my sidekick and she knows it. Good to know it might not be the big deal I was thinking it was. She doesn't react in fear currently, will approach strangers on her own without prompting, takes treats, just doesn't like being touched.


How old is she? One of my concerns was that Peggy might eventually make her feelings more boldly known, with a growl or worse. If there’s always ample room and permission to retreat, there shouldn’t ever be the need to escalate. But for encounters with kids especially I wanted to raise Peggy’s threshold.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

PhoebeDuck said:


> She automatically does sit/shake combined. DH was teaching the paw and she no longer waits to be asked. You're right, another trick that people could ask for would be helpful. How did you teach "hi"...?


We would stand at opposite ends of the room, each with a handful of treats, and practise calling her. This is still one of her favourite games. Sprinting back and forth between us was so deeply reinforced, we had no trouble when, a couple of years later, we decided to attach a new command to the behaviour. I just pointed at my husband and she figured out what to do. As she ran to him, I started saying “Go say hi!” Took just a few reps before she would do it with anyone.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> How old is she? One of my concerns was that Peggy might eventually make her feelings more boldly known, with a growl or worse. If there’s always ample room and permission to retreat, there shouldn’t ever be the need to escalate. But for encounters with kids especially I wanted to raise Peggy’s threshold.


Phoebe will be 14 wks on Fri. And she actively avoids kids, but the gkids will be encountered at some point and they are poorly trained. I've been taking Phoebe to the daycare nearby. Mondays, the 6-8 yr olds are escorted to the step where they give her treats. When she's done, we're done and gone. Other days, I just pick her up and let her look thru the windows. A kid (usually about 3 yrs old?) comes over and they greet thru the window. Tail wags. Again, she lets me know when she's done. These kids are all well behaved. DH's gkids are not. For reasons too long to get into here, I can't say anything unless I see actual destructive behavior. They stress both DH and me out.


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## Haitch (6 mo ago)

PhoebeDuck said:


> Phoebe isn't nippy, she just dodges people's hands. And I don't take Fran out unless necessary anymore. She's old enough now (turning grey) that we let her stay home where she's comfortable. Phoebe gets taken places instead. Hence the petting vs no petting issue.


I know she’s not nippy poor love , she just doesn’t like head etc pats , I don’t blame her at all , people are arrogant or stupid or uneducated and react to dogs like they just all love a cuddle /pat etc , we had it with our large fluffy guarding breed , as mentioned before . Watch primates , they cuddle , watch dogs , they don’t , except with their special people .
I know what it’s like to be on eggshells ( not saying you are btw) with an aggressive guarding breed . Our dog was a nightmare , weighed not far off as much as me and tall . She was reactive because of something that had happened to her as a puppy . Thankfully your dog has the sense to back off . 
I think you have the sense and will to get this sorted


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

PhoebeDuck said:


> Phoebe will be 14 wks on Fri. And she actively avoids kids, but the gkids will be encountered at some point and they are poorly trained. I've been taking Phoebe to the daycare nearby. Mondays, the 6-8 yr olds are escorted to the step where they give her treats. When she's done, we're done and gone. Other days, I just pick her up and let her look thru the windows. A kid (usually about 3 yrs old?) comes over and they greet thru the window. Tail wags. Again, she lets me know when she's done. These kids are all well behaved. DH's gkids are not.


At that age, my focus would probably be on reinforcing a return to me. Knowing she can always retreat and that you’ll always have her back will keep her confidence up through adolescence.

I follow Ian Dunbar’s methods quite religiously, but one area in which we diverge is in having strangers feed treats to puppies. Under the guidance of our trainer, we didn’t do this with Peggy until well into adolescence. Up until then, when around strangers it was all about reinforcing eyes on us: Go investigate the scary thing and then come get something yummy. Check out the tall guy with the mustache or the hunched lady with the walker or the shrieking kid with the skateboard; we’ll be right here. Look at that and then look at us.

We never pushed her outside her comfort zone to grab a treat.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> At that age, my focus would probably be on reinforcing a return to me. Knowing she can always retreat and that you’ll always have her back will keep her confidence up through adolescence.
> 
> I follow Ian Dunbar’s methods quite religiously, but one area in which we diverge is in having strangers feed treats to puppies. Under the guidance of our trainer, we didn’t do this with Peggy until well into adolescence. Up until then, when around strangers it was all about reinforcing eyes on us: Go investigate the scary thing and then come get something yummy. Check out the tall guy with the mustache or the hunched lady with the walker or the shrieking kid with the skateboard; we’ll be right here. Look at that and then look at us.
> 
> We never pushed her outside her comfort zone to grab a treat.


I like that idea. Thank you! She approaches eagerly, without any prompting, but bounces back to me immediately after. I'm never far away. It's hard to imagine her not having confidence in the teenage stage, although I know it's likely to happen.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Everyone here has given me wonderful ideas, so thanks!!! I'm going to keep with reinforcing the positive with the well behaved kids, but make sure she can retreat when desired. I'll see about keeping the games in mind if I have her out at the same time as the gkids. Although I may keep her separated, I'll have to play it by ear. As for strangers petting her, I won't worry about it. As long as she's happy sniffing and leaving, I'll call it good. I may have them treat, but maybe not. I'll have to think on it. I appreciate the suggestions and the reassurance. It means a lot to me.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> I think sometimes ill mannered kids with dogs at home are even worse than kids without dogs. They assume all dogs are as tolerant as their own family pets. Plus, the poor manners often stem from parents who themselves lack discipline, so the parents aren't keeping an eye on what their spawn are up to.


#Truth


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I think you are right on the money with the positive experiences from a distance that you are doing so far.
One thing you can try, especially with the monsters, is a treat scatter. When a dog is hesitant about something/someone, you don't want to 'force' them closer than their comfort level in order to get the treat. A less intimidating experience would be to have the kids toss a small handful of kibble and/or treats on the ground when she approaches. This will mean she doesn't have to approach them as directly, and it gives the kids something to do with her. 
If she likes balls or toys, they could toss 5hat for her too.
I would heavily play up the story that she is just a baby, she hasn't grown up with kids, she can only manage short visits right now. 
You could initially have them meet (personally I feel that outdoors is better since there is more space, but you know what she prefers), play some calling and treat scattering for 10 min or so, and then say it's time for her nap. 
I would put her in a separate room (crated) for the remainder of their visit. 

I can empathize with monsters that are related; one couple in my family have a few and they had a large dog as well. One of the boys in particular had been tormenting the dog and causing it to be more and more reactive, to the point of warning snaps that left red marks. We visited one day, the dog unbeknownst to us had been getting pestered over the day and pushed to his limit by a few kids. My youngest reached out to pet the dog and was bitten in the face requiring stitches. 
I actually still like the dog, he is lovely other than the fact that he can't handle young kids, boys particularly- with good reason!
My dogs do like kids, having grown up with mine, but I am uber strict when those kids come over and watch any interactions like a hawk.


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## Heartland2022 (8 mo ago)

When introducing Dewy to new people I do similar to what cowpony does. He still doesn't like no one touching on his afro though. The chest is a sure bet he loves that or his back.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Starvt said:


> I think you are right on the money with the positive experiences from a distance that you are doing so far.
> One thing you can try, especially with the monsters, is a treat scatter. When a dog is hesitant about something/someone, you don't want to 'force' them closer than their comfort level in order to get the treat. A less intimidating experience would be to have the kids toss a small handful of kibble and/or treats on the ground when she approaches. This will mean she doesn't have to approach them as directly, and it gives the kids something to do with her.
> If she likes balls or toys, they could toss 5hat for her too.
> I would heavily play up the story that she is just a baby, she hasn't grown up with kids, she can only manage short visits right now.
> ...


I'm sorry to hear about your son getting bit. I hope he didn't let that stop him from loving dogs or make him afraid. 

These are related by marriage. They are old enough to know better, but my opinion is probably colored by past sins. I'm hoping their uncle (DH's older son in law) brings them by for the initial visit. Phoebe already knows him and he has better control of them than anyone else. If it's their parents, <shudder>... It'll be a long day for everyone.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Heartland2022 said:


> When introducing Dewy to new people I do similar to what cowpony does. He still doesn't like no one touching on his afro though. The chest is a sure bet he loves that or his back.


Belly scratches are what won over Phoebe when I picked her up. 😁


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I would also say, she is only 14 weeks: prevention and desensitizing are important but she is still just barely finishing the primary socialization phase.
As a youngster (covid hit when he was 7 or 8 months during his adolescent sketch period), my Spoo Raffi loved kids but men were viewed with high suspicion. The freeze, the dramatic rear back, even a sharp bark if someone tried to pet him. Even females were iffy, some more than others. He often wouldn't even take treats from other people.
We worked on lots of exposure from a distance using a T set-up, and we figured out what pets he was most comfortable with (chest scrunches) and when Raffi was relaxed with someone we asked them to do that.
At 2 years old he was ok with most people petting his sides and chest but still could be head shy, and now (he just turned 3) most people can pet his head. His dreads tend to prevent random touches though lol. And I still make sure that he gets the choice to approach people as much as possible.
So keep on with as many positive experiences, staying below her threshold, as you can and you have a good chance of continuing improvement!


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

My first poodle was ten months old when I got her and had not been socialized much. It took years for us to build up her confidence. With children, I always turned her sideways and encouraged them to stroke her side or back. When she was 8 years old I took her through a therapy dog class, mostly because my 13 yr. old daughter wanted to take her own dog through and I had to be present. My old girl was obedient, but not very happy until we actually started working and then, she loved it. She was the "dog of choice" for children who were afraid of dogs because of her quiet demeanor, Nursing homes were her favorite. She was treated like she knew she deserved to be treated. I never would have predicted that she would be such a good therapy dog, but she was great at it. We never rushed her or forced her to do things she did not want do, but we kept giving her opportunities to try new things, and kept praising and rewarding her for moving in the right direction. Give your pup the gift of time and patience. I am sure you will be rewarded.


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## Maggied (Sep 6, 2018)

My 7 year old mini poo was just the same. We moved into assisted living 6 months ago. I was concerned lots of people, apartment living, shy dog (not with people she knows well, or certain others for unknown reason, but still doesnot like her head touched or people crouching over her.) Since being here and being near umpteen people every day, she has blossomed over time. Still somewhat shy about head touching. But tail wag, often a little kiss for people. Very friendly to strangers, surprisingly good with some very disabled. I assume it is part being enmeshed in social stimulation. But most people here are old, don't easily bend, often talk and lower their hand for her to smell. Many say I used to have a poodle, and I tease them that they didn't get another! Also, maybe us old folks have some sense in approaching dogs from experience. Still, does NOT like being separated from me! Another poodle here is just the same. Oddly, Moxie is friendlier than that one. So, as the behaviorist say, expose, expose, expose. But warn people yours is shy and likes to approach over time. In my experience, real dog people go about it correctly without thinking.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Maggied said:


> My 7 year old mini poo was just the same. We moved into assisted living 6 months ago. I was concerned lots of people, apartment living, shy dog (not with people she knows well, or certain others for unknown reason, but still doesnot like her head touched or people crouching over her.) Since being here and being near umpteen people every day, she has blossomed over time. Still somewhat shy about head touching. But tail wag, often a little kiss for people. Very friendly to strangers, surprisingly good with some very disabled. I assume it is part being enmeshed in social stimulation. But most people here are old, don't easily bend, often talk and lower their hand for her to smell. Many say I used to have a poodle, and I tease them that they didn't get another! Also, maybe us old folks have some sense in approaching dogs from experience. Still, does NOT like being separated from me! Another poodle here is just the same. Oddly, Moxie is friendlier than that one. So, as the behaviorist say, expose, expose, expose. But warn people yours is shy and likes to approach over time. In my experience, real dog people go about it correctly without thinking.


She's shy with everyone except DH and myself. But she will approach, sniff, and accept treats. She's less skittish with older people, but still won't accept people touching her in any way. We've decided to just go with sniff and treat and let her decide when and if she gets pets. This morning, she hid underneath me at the daycare we visit, and the kids learned not to crowd the puppy. They backed off and approached her one by one. She came out and took treats from each of them, tail wagging. 3 kids, 3 sets of treats, and she was happy. I'm hoping she settles more as she ages.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I haven't re-read thru the whole thread so if this is a duplication, sorry.

I'd also train her a different "place" command between your legs (for now anyhow lol) or even "behind" you.

Creating a visual barrier may stop some unwanted advances or give her a more protected space.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> I haven't re-read thru the whole thread so if this is a duplication, sorry.
> 
> I'd also train her a different "place" command between your legs (for now anyhow lol) or even "behind" you.
> 
> Creating a visual barrier may stop some unwanted advances or give her a more protected space.


I'm half asleep right now, so forgive the answer if I'm reading you wrong. DH accidentally woke puppy up before the alarm. Twice... But if we are willing to do the sniff/treat song and dance, I crouch down and she goes right next to me or between my legs (her back to my front) all on her own. I've asked the younger crowd to crouch down too so they seem less threatening. Anyway, they stay put and we let her go to them for the treat. If she doesn't want to go, she doesn't go. If I think she's already hit her strangers-limit, we don't even bother stopping. 

After the treat... That's when people think "oh, she took a treat, it must be ok to pet." By this time, she's usually retreated to me already. She stays longer with the ones she's met a few times. They still try to pet. With the familiar people, she ducks away, but doesn't hide. She stays looking for more treats. I wasn't sure how far to press her on this, or even if I should, but all the comments here convinced me to let her do her own thing. I second guess myself a lot, so I needed that advice.


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## PsychoBunny (Jun 12, 2021)

Bunny is a little shy & reserved. Her trainer mentioned what Peggy said with the handshake as a way of greeting instead. People literally chase her down to play with her “Blow out’!


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

PsychoBunny said:


> Bunny is a little shy & reserved. Her trainer mentioned what Peggy said with the handshake as a way of greeting instead. People literally chase her down to play with her “Blow out’!


And they think this is ok... _why?!?_ 

We have not yet been chased down. Thankfully.


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## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

PhoebeDuck said:


> Hello. I'm not quite sure if this is something I should try to train out or just go with. Phoebe Duck does _not_ like strangers touching her. Not her head, not her back, not anywhere at any time. She will sniff, she will accept multiple treats, but even after meeting the same person more than once, she still doesn't like being petted. On the one hand, most people around here respect the phrase "she doesn't like being petted" since they don't want to risk a bite. On the other hand, there will always be unforeseen idiots. And I was hoping to get her CGC. She isn't going to show, there aren't any dog clubs nearby, so there's no one to brag to that would care. It would just be for me. And her, although I don't think she cares either. I'm taking her out regularly to places where she'll encounter people. She takes treats, she sniffs determinedly, she will eagerly go up to the person, but she shies away from their hand every single time. Any thoughts welcome. Keep trying or fuhgettaboutit?


Keep trying. You are saying she's approachable and in the same breath, that she is backing off hand shy. I'd have to see her to advise you, really. You need someone who can evaluate her in person who knows behaviors.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Jilly SummerSunset said:


> Keep trying. You are saying she's approachable and in the same breath, that she is backing off hand shy. I'd have to see her to advise you, really. You need someone who can evaluate her in person who knows behaviors.


No, i'm saying _she_ will approach. But if _you_ approach her, she backs away. If you just stand/sit/crouch and wait, she will come and sniff and accept treats. If you just stand there talking, she will approach you and sniff your pants or shoes. You move towards her, whether a step towards her or reaching out your hand, she backs away every time. To me, that's reserved or shy or cautious, however you want to call it. After the discussion above, I'm just going to let her do her thing.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

PhoebeDuck said:


> If she doesn't want to go, she doesn't go. If I think she's already hit her strangers-limit, we don't even bother stopping.


I was thinking more of the onrushing, escaped toddler coming at her, but since she's already placing herself, that sounds good.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> I was thinking more of the onrushing, escaped toddler coming at her, but since she's already placing herself, that sounds good.


The monsters in question are 7/8, but are shrieky, loud, and undisciplined. The mom has no control. I'm banking as many _good _ experiences as possible since I don't know when they will be coming to visit.


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## TuttoBene (Apr 23, 2021)

Does she accept petting from you? If it were my poodle, I would desensitized her and have her be able to accept a brief scratch under the chin or suc can always tell them “I think she’s had enough. if you start worrying about people approaching and petting because you are concerned she is going to react, she could pick up on that tension and become reactive.

If you are expecting her to get a CGC she has to accept a stranger’s brief touch. Have you trained her to offer a paw? That might be an alternative or a start . You are the owner so it’s up to you and your dog to some extent. I happen to like social dogs so I do my best to make socializing with all types of people a priority. When Tutto was a puppy I’d ask people on the street, workmen, kids, etc to say a supervised ‘hi’ to my dog. I’d hand them treats to give to Tutto.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

TuttoBene said:


> Does she accept petting from you? If it were my poodle, I would desensitized her and have her be able to accept a brief scratch under the chin or suc can always tell them “I think she’s had enough. if you start worrying about people approaching and petting because you are concerned she is going to react, she could pick up on that tension and become reactive.
> 
> If you are expecting her to get a CGC she has to accept a stranger’s brief touch. Have you trained her to offer a paw? That might be an alternative or a start . You are the owner so it’s up to you and your dog to some extent. I happen to like social dogs so I do my best to make socializing with all types of people a priority. When Tutto was a puppy I’d ask people on the street, workmen, kids, etc to say a supervised ‘hi’ to my dog. I’d hand them treats to give to Tutto.


She accepts pets from DH and myself with no issues. She will wave her paw hi to strangers but still won't let them touch. When I take her for walks (daily) I stop as many people as possible and have them say hi. I bring a bag of treats and she will accept them from the strangers hand. It was a total surprise to me when I saw she refused pets, so this is all her. Not her picking up on me being anxious. I'm a little disappointed about the CGC, but it isn't the end of the world. There's other stuff we can do that doesn't require strangers petting her.


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