# Succinct article about why dominance theory is outmoded/dangerous



## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

Thank you for posting this.

I think of my dogs and horses as partners and companions. When you are dealing with a "pack" of "sharp" dogs, however, like certain lines of Weimaraners, e.g., it is very important that certain rules are clearly and strictly enforced without deviance (~~~ a "pack" of these _can _kill you).

Beyond that, lol, I don't even like obedience, rather tending to the wild side ~~~


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Agreed, it's impossible to live with ANY dog without firm rules; all dogs should be trained to behave, and I have zero issues with rigid enforcement. It's just that dominance bollocks that drives me insane ... "he's getting on the bed, I think he is displaying dominance" ... no, he wants a comfy place to sleep and he hasn't been trained NOT to get on the bed :smile:.

There was a very good thread here a while back, about everyone's absolutely unbreakable 'house rules'.


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## EmilyK (Mar 26, 2011)

Thank you - that was really helpful! My neighbor tried to tell me that my little pup was dominant because she got him all riled up and he was growling at her - but he was laying on his back at the time!! It really annoyed me. 

I was not aware of all the debate around this theory and certainly always thought that it was important that the dog knows every human is "above" him, but I never thought the way to do that was through harsh discipline. Rather it should be enforced by consistent rules that are followed by everyone in the family. It sounds like I wasn't far off, just perhaps the semantics of it!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

That's much the same way I look at it ... I get to be the boss, because I have opposable thumbs and a paycheck :smile:, not because I'm 'dominant'. Labelling a dog as 'dominant' always seems to lead to abuse. 

With my dog, there are some behaviours that are non-negotiable (stay off the kitchen counters), and some where I honour his opinion (trick training). Mine's a bolshy, confident little guy, and I'm sure that in some situations, he'd have been labelled dominant and brow-beaten (or actually beaten) into submission. I've met dogs that have been handled that way, and it's achingly sad.

There is ample research available now to show that 'dominance theory' isn't even applicable to wolves, let alone dogs. It's just that it seems to be such a compelling idea for people, it is taking forever to die!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

There does seem to be something in human nature that makes many people relish the chance to dominate, and to take any excuse to do so. From beating the devil out of children, to "strong" management styles (aka, in my experience, bullying) it recurs again and again. But ascribing everything a dog does to it wanting to "dominate", no matter that the behaviours are contradictory, must be the daftest expression of it yet - Does the dog run to you and jump up? He is being dominant; Does she hold back or run away? She is being dominant; Does he sit without the command? Dominance; Roll over? Passive aggression/dominance; etc, etc. Not to mention the complete misunderstanding of the biologists' use of the word. Pity the poor dogs!


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## Ennui (Apr 10, 2011)

Great article to read just before bringing a new puppy into our home. My last puppy was very small (Toy Poodle) and this is my first big dog ever. I had been reading and so much is made of the Dominance I was assuming it was the only way to go, since I am not used to a big dog - and I think of a standard poodle as big. Good to think about how to start the relationship off well.


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## MyDogElwyn (Nov 27, 2010)

I think people take the dominance thing and take it way too far. 

REAL "alpha dog people" to me are calm, loving, enjoy their dog and lead through patience and consistency. I've met "alpha dogs" before, and theyre the people who dont yell or scream, theyre actually very nice and patient, but theres something about them that makes you respect them, listen. 
They're firm in all the right ways - with dogs and people. That article IS right - wolves dont berate each other - the leader is a dog who can take care of a family and run a group fairly, firmly, and calmly. Dogs know people better than people know people I think - I have seen how dogs react to their owners, and dogs know if they should take you seriously or not. Walk the walk! Horses know too...oh boy do they know. I think these "dominance" people mistake calm confidence with being a jerk. But many people do that in general.

The one thing I don't like about that article - I actually LIKE having the dog wait to go out the door after me...I dont see that as abuse, I see that as basic manners! Its nice when your dog isn't climbing over you to get outside. Maybe I misunderstood what their point was though.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

MyDogElwyn said:


> The one thing I don't like about that article - I actually LIKE having the dog wait to go out the door after me...I dont see that as abuse, I see that as basic manners! Its nice when your dog isn't climbing over you to get outside. Maybe I misunderstood what their point was though.


I think the difference is between asking the dog to wait because it is good manners, or a safety issue, and insisting on going through doorways first because you have been told if you don't your dog will not respect you, and will rapidly take over your house, your life, and eventually the world! 

It has been raining here all week - my biggest problem at the moment is getting Sophy to go out at all! And no, she is not trying to dominate me - she just hates getting wet!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Yes, exactly, training a dog to behave in a certain way because of safety issues or manners issues or simply because you like it, is fine, great, wonderful. I ask my dog to do all sorts of things that he probably finds meaningless, but he does it because I've rewarded him for doing it in the past. It's just when we tell ourselves we are treating the dog in a particular way because we are "controlling dominance", we muddy the issue and do a disservice to the dog. And it sucks all the joy out of dog training, IMO. I LOVE working with my dog, we both have a fantastic time, and I just can't imagine how spoiled that would be if I were constantly on the lookout for signs of dominance that needed to be squashed.


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## MyDogElwyn (Nov 27, 2010)

Ahhh okay. Yeah I was kind of wonderin'...

To me, its in a lot of ways just exploiting a tiny idea that has good to it and makes it into this ridiculous circus.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

As I understood it, being 'alpha' is nothing to do with being aggressive. If you look at all species of social animals, the leader never forces the other animals to do anything. She (and it almost always is a she with mammals) is simply an older, experienced member of the group who knows what she's doing. The other animals will follow her and trust her decisions because it makes them feel safe. Historically, male animals, such as stallions, have been thought to be 'alpha', but this was simply humans trying to force their interpretation of animal behaviour into gender stereotypes. The decisions in a group of horses are made by the oldest mare, not the stallion.

Dogs do need leadership, in that they need a trustworthy person with whom they feel confident and safe. A dog who is nervous with strangers and who has the right sort of relationship with its owner will tend to hide behind the owner when a stranger approaches. A dog nervous with strangers who doesn't have that bond is more likely to feel unsafe and show fear aggression towards the stranger. It doesn't mean you, as the dog's owner, need to force it into what you see as submission.

That said, rolling over a dog who is overexcited does have a use, but not because it shows 'dominance' or any of the things its usual adherents claim. If my dog is excited about meeting a person or another dog and jumps on them, I will sometimes lie her on the floor and hug her (I don't mean lie on her and squash or hurt her, just support most of my weight on my elbows and knees and lean on her) because this seems to be relaxing. If you look up Temple Grandin's studies on gentle pressure, she's found that it seems to comfort lots of animals, so this ties in more with this than with anything to do with dominance. Dogs should be taught to be respectful of people's rights to space and food because it's good manners, and they should be taught to wait when you're going out the door or crossing a road for safety reasons. Hitting and using loud noises to startle a dog do sometimes have their uses if the dog is doing something dangerous and you can't get it to stop otherwise. Dogs need to learn that there are bad consequences to doing dangerous things. I'm not saying that anyone should ever hit or alarm a dog routinely or for the hell of it, but it's better that the dog learns by getting a smack from its owner for doing something dangerous than it learns from getting severely injured or killed as a result of the behaviour.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I think I once mentioned on here my friend's theory that Lucy was being dominant when I took her to my friend's house and she ran into the kitchen where there were dog toys all over the floor - and she piddled as she ran and grabbed a toy. My friend got annoyed and said to Lucy "You are not coming in here and just taking over -- grabbing a toy and peeing on the floor." I think she was totally wrong -- Lucy was being submissive when she peed and she grabbed the toy because the toys were all over the floor and they looked exciting!

I know Lucy is definitely not at all dominant. Even when she is jumping on my two Shih-tzus, she is not being dominant, she is just too over-excited. 

Another thing Lucy does is lick-lick-lick-lick --- little tiny repeated licks on the face of other dogs and people. To me that is submissive and a bit of over excitement.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Purley said:


> I think I once mentioned on here my friend's theory that Lucy was being dominant when I took her to my friend's house and she ran into the kitchen where there were dog toys all over the floor - and she piddled as she ran and grabbed a toy.


My dog used to piddle on the floor in my sister's house. I think it was because it smelt of other dogs there, but mainly because there was no flooring (just a concrete floor) and it felt like outside.  Once at my grandma's house there were several relatives, and a girl wanted to stroke her, but she was nervous of the girl, whom she didn't know, and kept squeezing behind the furniture to get away. Although we told the girl to leave her alone and to sit still and let the dog come to her, she wouldn't stop. When she eventually let the girl stroke her, she (the dog not the girl) sat in the middle of the carpet and wet herself.


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