# My dog is sick, and i suspect is caused by Heartgard



## dcyk

My pup is sick and i think it was after i gave him heartgard last night at 7pm.

I was around until midnight before i went to sleep and all was well, in the morning i found a few patches of vomit on the ground and his stool which was solid became loose.

He usually is bubbly in the mornings and rushes to my door when i wake up, he's lethargic, vommitted and had loose stools, went off his food and drink.

After clearing up the mess, he vomitted two more times, i then sent him to the vet for checkup, although they said that heartgard seldom causes these side effects, i still think it's that which caused him to be sick.

He is still sleeping, the vet asked me to fast him until midnight before feeding him some bland steamed chicken, and try the heartgard again next month, but i'm afraid of trying it again.

SIGH


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## BorderKelpie

There are other options for heartworm prevention. I'm surprised your vet didn't offer you any. 

Maybe look into Interceptor, even my MDR1 mutation dogs handle that well. I would be afraid to try the drop on HW meds since many are made with a drug related to the main ingredient as Heartgard.

Best wishes for a quick and full recovery - it's terrifying when our little ones are sick.


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## dcyk

They did but they want me to try a second time before offering a change, since they say for the small breed, it's really very low dose


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## BorderKelpie

Go with your gut feelings. This is your dog, you know him better than they do. 

Did he just get the hw pill, or was he vaccinated at the same time? Was anything different added to his diet or any other new thing or stressor?

I'd hate to think that hw preventative will make him sick, but after you rule out every thing else, you may have to consider an alternative. 

I do hope his is feeling better already. Poor little tiny guy.

Do poodles have issues with the MDR1 mutation? Seems like I remember just collie/collie types and sighthounds were affected by it. Hmm, something new to research...
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ok, I found something interesting. Someone has put poodles on the list for mdr1 mutation. I don't know how accurate it is, but I would definately try a different preventative.

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/forum/...1-gene-being-found-bullmastiffs-mastiffs.html


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## dcyk

Thanks for the heads up, i've read about collies being sensitive to HG, the little fella is sleeping alot since we got back from the vet, one big diarrhea and sleeping all the way, drank abit of glucose, not much of anything else, since the vet said to let him rest his tummy for 12 hours, i'm gonna steam some chicken for him to eat then, and chop it finely for easier digestion.

And i read somewhere else that if the other brand is non toxic to MDR1 gene dogs why not use it for other breeds instead of risking the adverse effects.

http://pondigest.tripod.com/multidrug.html

this link is like from the Washington State University College of Veterinary Medicine


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## Carley's Mom

I know I will be standing alone on this one... but I don't treat my dogs for heartworms. I feel like the medicine causes more health problems than the chance of getting the worms. I may be wrong, but what I do know is that my dogs are healthy, they live a long full life and we have never had heart worms. I have 2 shih tuzs going on 16 and my last two Boxers lived to be 12 and 13 and it was their hips that caused me to put them down then. Carley had the prevention for the first 6 years of her life with her former owner, but I am not giving it to her. If she did get them at this stage in her life, they take years to cause any problems and I will take my chances. I hope your little guy will be okay and I would say trust your own feelings... you know what is best for the dog that you love, better than anyone else.


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## CT Girl

I have always treated my dogs for heartworm and never had an issue. In my area of the country (Northeast) heartworm use to be rare but now with more rescue dogs being brought up from the South is happening more here now. The consequences of a dog catching heartworm are so dire that I feel the risk to benefit ratio is there. Carley's Mom what makes you think that the medicine causes more health problems? In the case of a puppy they often can get an upset tummy - it may or not be connected to the medicine. I would do as your vet suggested and see what happens next month. If your puppy again has issues then do not give it.


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## Carley's Mom

I read an article years ago that made a conection to heart worm pervention and cancer. I just felt it was the right decision for me. My sister has had many dogs end up with cancer and she does treat. That is about the only differance in the care of our dogs... she too feeds good food, exercises ect. Like I stated, I may be wrong, but I went with my gut and so far I have been okay. I am not saying that it is the way to go, just the way I am going. I am a health nut and fear all meds for myself or my dogs. And like I said before, my dogs are healthy. I rarely have to go to the vet for more than check up. I am shocked at how much other people spend on vet bills. I have never had to do that with any dog. And my dogs live long lives !


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## all that jazz

My husband!s dog died of hear worms in Baltimore Maryland.


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## bigpoodleperson

With him being so tiny and all the vomiting he did, I would be worried about dehydration. Esp. if you are fasting him, I would also be worried about hypoglycemia (low blood sugar). Small dogs are prone to it if they dont eat often, and it is life threatening. Did your vet give him any sub-q fluids (under his skin)? Small dogs especially can get dehydrated fast. Lift his lip and touch your thumb to his gums (right above his canine teeth). Do his gums feel moist? Does your thumb sort of stick to them like they are tacky? Dry? If they are dry and your thumb sticks to them (tacky) then he is dehydrated. I would bring him back into the vet for fluids right away if he is.


About the heartworms and medications. Yes, Heartgard is dangerous to collies and dogs that have the MDRD1 gene. That is a genetic "fluke" in those breeds. Heartgard is Fine for all other dogs. Collies (herding breeds mainly) have a genetic mutation that allows the ivermectin to cross the blood-brain barrier, and that is why it is toxic to them. No other breeds have that problem with heartgard. It is perfectly safe for dogs that done have that mutation (there was kind of an old saying, "Four white feet, dont treat", meaning collies, border collies, shelties, etc with the white socks).

I personally would never Not treat my dog for hearworms. There is such a small amount of medication in the pills anyways to cause a problem. I have never read, seen or heard of a study linking heartworm meds to cancer, and I have seen alot of studies. Heartworms are dangerous. The treatment its self is very expensive, might kill your dog, is a long recovery period, and your dog could have lasting health problems from the heartworms. It doesnt take years for the symptoms to present. The longer heartworms are in your dogs body, the more damage they do. Your dog may never be the same. They are not something to mess around with. I think if you are in a heartworm area, then it is irresponsible to not protect your dog. If any neighbor dogs within a few miles, coyotes, foxes, etc have the disease, then your dog is at risk. Chances are someone is your area has it. Im trying not to come across as abrassive, and sorry if I have. I just think the Very Slight risk of the medication is not worth not treating.


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## apriljean80

*mdr1 mutation*

Well, you learn something everyday. I had an aussie we lost that had seizures and I can't remember for certain but think he very likely was on heartguard. Wish I could find all those records, I have no idea where they are though. 

On another note, hope your little guy recovers soon.


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## mom24doggies

Aww, poor little guy. Hope he feels better soon!! I too am wondering if he had any vaccinations recently, or flea treatment? I've heard stories of people giving HW prevention\flea prevention at the same time and the dog's body reacted to it, I can't remember exactly what happened though. If you really do think that HG caused your problem, then change it! Better safe then sorry.  

I, personally, DO most definitely give HW prevention, but only March-October or November, depending on the weather. I live in an area where there is a huge risk of heartworms, as we have a looot of mosquitoes. HW treatment is expensive and hard on the dog; I would much rather just use prevention. I do not, however, use any kind of flea\tick prevention. I figure I should do only one or the other since both are pretty hefty chemicals, and I chose HW. I've discovered that if I keep the dogs out from under the house and on a good diet, they do not get fleas, and rarely get ticks.


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## Poodle Lover

Carley's Mom said:


> I know I will be standing alone on this one... but I don't treat my dogs for heartworms. I feel like the medicine causes more health problems than the chance of getting the worms. I may be wrong, but what I do know is that my dogs are healthy, they live a long full life and we have never had heart worms. I have 2 shih tuzs going on 16 and my last two Boxers lived to be 12 and 13 and it was their hips that caused me to put them down then. Carley had the prevention for the first 6 years of her life with her former owner, but I am not giving it to her. If she did get them at this stage in her life, they take years to cause any problems and I will take my chances. I hope your little guy will be okay and I would say trust your own feelings... you know what is best for the dog that you love, better than anyone else.


You are not alone, there might just be two of us. lol I don't give my guys heartworm medication either. Heartworm was pretty rare in my neck of the woods and according to my vet, there are a lot more instances now. I still can't put my dogs on preventative meds for the rest of their life. I also don't keep my dogs on flea preventative. The only time they get treated for fleas is when I see one and we don't have a problem with fleas often.


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## tortoise

Poodle Lover said:


> You are not alone, there might just be two of us. lol I don't give my guys heartworm medication either. Heartworm was pretty rare in my neck of the woods and according to my vet, there are a lot more instances now. I still can't put my dogs on preventative meds for the rest of their life. I also don't keep my dogs on flea preventative. The only time they get treated for fleas is when I see one and we don't have a problem with fleas often.


Heartworm is found in all 50 states. Also, there was a resurgence of cases after rescue efforts during and after Hurricaine Katrina brought heartworm-positive dogs all over the country.

Heartworm is 100% fatal and the treatment is painful and often deadly.

I'm open to all sorts of opinions, low-vaccine, no vaccine, raw feeding, etc. But to NOT give heartworm medication is irresponsible, IMO.

BTW, heartworm medication is actually not preventative. It does not prevent a dog from getting heartworms. It kills heartworms that are less than 30 days old. So you have to give it one month AFTER the mosquito season ends.


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## Poodle Lover

tortoise said:


> I'm open to all sorts of opinions, low-vaccine, no vaccine, raw feeding, etc. But to NOT give heartworm medication is irresponsible, IMO.


That is your opinion and we can agree to disagree.


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## BorderKelpie

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just curious. What part of the world do you live in Carley's Mom? And, trust me, I am not being ugly - I just want to know. 

Just for clarification, I treat my dogs occasionally with HW preventative. Usually every 2-3 months and I live in a very HW+ area (a flood plain in outside Dallas - can't even get flood insurance). The only dog I ever had that ended up with hw's was a sheltie (mdr1+) on a reqular monthly preventative. Apparently, she swallowed them whole because I would sometimes see the entire tablet in her stool. Treating her was a nightmare, poor baby. Even after all that, I still only do the every other month thing. I do test my dogs yearly. So far, so good *knocks on wood*

I have noticed a huge difference in parasitic loads since switching my dogs to a more species appropriate diet. My neighbors are crawling with fleas, mom's cat came home two days ago with ticks - again. I haven't found a flea on any of my animals in 2 years. I have since located a natural suppliment online that is supposed to repel fleas, ticks, mosquitos, etc and am going to experiment with that. I'll let you all know how that works. Maybe that will turn out to be a better alternative for our furry family members. 

Oh, and as far as the breeds affected by the MDR1 mutation - it's not just collies, it's been found in sighthounds and I believe some mastiffs. 

On a more important note, dcyk, how is your baby feeling today?


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## Ladywolfe

I am confused by this:



> Heartworm is 100% fatal and the treatment is painful and often deadly.


Does that translate to "_treatment often kills a dog that is already 100% guaranteed to die_?"


Many, many years ago, I had a dog treated for HW, and she lived a very long time afterward. That just doesn't sound 100% fatal? 100% fatal; I don't think so. Painful and "sometime"s deadly to treat; I agree with.


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## dcyk

Thanks for all the well wishes, i couldn't sleep last night and woke at 530am to see if he's ok.

After the visit to the vet, which the vet gave an antiacid to stop his bile vomiting and asking me to fast him until midnight.

He did stop vomiting. But had a nasty big diarrhea in the evening.

He was sleeping most of the way, i gave him some glucose to keep him going. At around midnight i gave him some steamed chicken breast which he took, in the morning i gave him a somemore chicken breast which he took again too, and fed him small portions about every 3 hours or so.

He's lethargic and sleeping most of the time, no vomiting , but he haven't eliminated yet since the big diarrhea last evening, and it's now around 10pm, more than 24hrs. Should i go to the vet again.

About the heartworm medication, i'm thinking of asking the vet to test to see if he has the mdr1 gene. Before i start giving him his second dose next month. I did read at some webpages that some poodles can have the mdr1 gene mutation.


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## jasperspoo

BorderKelpie, that's a valid question. I don't treat Jasper with HW medication either, as heartworm isn't endemic to most of BC, where I live. Both the breeder and my vet recommended against it (the vet's actual words were 'my accountant would love it if I told you you needed it, but you don't.')

I have given it to him after being in the few places in BC or across the border where it is a problem.


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## Carley's Mom

I live in the mountains of TN. I am not saying that dogs don't get heartworms in my area, though I have never heard of one... I try to give my dogs the best care I can and I have never felt that I should treat them. However, I never gave them RMB's either until I found you guys and I did my research and changed my mind...

I have to wonder about all the dogs from years back, before heartworm prevention... it seems to me that most dogs lived to be old when I was growing up just fine without it. I hate to give any kind of meds to my dogs and I must be doing something right. I have healthy dogs and spend very little on vets.


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## dcyk

Ok good news, he's eliminated after 40 hours from his last diarrhea, super smelly though, and after that i feel he's not as lethargic as before, maybe the relief feeling of getting something toxic out of the body.

I'm still taking the day off to monitor him, if by this evening he's ok, i will be able to go to work without worrying about him ^^


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## BorderKelpie

dyck - that's great news!!

Carley's Mom, I agree, I think the meds are what's actually backfiring and shortening lives. Remember too, kibble was only 'invented' what 60-70 years ago. Everyone cooked for their dogs back then. Of course they lived longer, they were fed well. A properly fed and maintained dog has a better immune system to better protect themselves from parasites of all sorts - of course, sounds like I'm preaching to the choir, though.
(I hear TN is beautiful - I've never been, I really want to travel and learn more about the world, I should really start in my own backyard, huh?) 

Anyway, back to the topic on hand as it were. Perfect example of diet issues. My mother lives in the same area I do, she has dogs related to mine, she feeds crap in a bag and has to constantly treat for fleas - she had a cat with a tick this past week. ick!!
My dogs are not on regular preventative, they do not have fleas (I am neurotic about checking them), my next door neighbors dog is infested. Lucky? I don't think so. 

dyck, I am going to suggest you seriously research all forms of HW preventative, vaccine protocal and diets. That way, the next time your vet tells you something, you can make an informed decision that you can happily live with.

I wish you all the best - health and happiness!


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## dcyk

Well he's all naughty, zoomies and biting again (teething, already changed a few tooth)

When he was lethargic, whenever i put him on my lap he would just go sleep, hahaha now he'll try to bite every finger around him.

Anyhow i did research, but i didn't see poodles in MDR1 gene mutation earlier.

My next step would be to take him to get him tested for MDR1 gene mutation to rule out if it's the drug in HG which is causing the trouble.

And anyhow HG is only 95% effective, some people give their dogs monthly and yet they can still get the HW.


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## bigpoodleperson

> And anyhow HG is only 95% effective, some people give their dogs monthly and yet they can still get the HW.


Heartworm meds are more like 98-99% effective. If they arnt given in the proper time frame, arnt chewed fully, are vomited up, etc then that can lower the effectivness. Most people just dont give them properly, forget, etc. 

BTW, heartworm disease is not 100% fatal. It surely Can be fatal, but not always. Some dogs can naturally fight it off. HW leave behind a mess of distruction though in their wake! I would never not treat.


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## BorderKelpie

I'm glad he's feeling better - I love the zoomies. Makes me giggle at them everytime.


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## dcyk

yea he's like lost his mind and ran helter skelter, back to his oldself yay


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## BorderKelpie

Want to have some real fun? Get a really playful, tolerant cat and another toy poodle. My daughter and I watch those three idiots wrestle, play, jump, flip, etc more often than the tv. My daughter is 15 years old. I think that says something for entertainment value. lol

I really am glad your little Mack is feeling better. His picture is precious.


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