# Tail docking video



## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

I think it's horrible and I'm glad it's banned now here in the UK... pain is pain... poor puppy


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't care if ears or tails are cropped for docked, but I do think all dewclaws should be removed.


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm glad you posted this, because we pet owners should understand what is involved. I just hope I don't continue to hear that puppy's cries in nightmares for years to come. <shudder>


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

"In this day and age, it probably isn't a very practical thing to do. So why do I do it? Because people want me to." ???? What? Yes, then he goes on to say "and it doesn't hurt them for life, I don't think it causes permanent psychological damage, etc." Well, I'm not going to start piercing dogs' ears because people want me to and it doesn't hurt them for life! At the end of the video, he says "Hopefully, in a few years, it'll be something we don't have to do anymore." Not if you keep doing it!! Ugh. I don't get this vet because he doesn't really seem convinced himself that docking is okay, yet he made a video about it. 

I really dislike his statements like "It only took about 15 seconds." (right, and that's exactly how long the pain lasted...), and "As you can see, he's not that upset." He's a 2-day-old puppy! He's crying and wiggling. What is he supposed to do to tell you he's unhappy, write you a grievance letter?!

Whether or not docking is okay, whether you choose to do it, like the look, dislike, whatever, *please* don't just hold a crying puppy for several minutes to elevate their level of fear/excitement and sensitivity while making puns and guessing as to why you're about to remove its appendages. Gaahhhh!!!! 

To dock or not is a very loaded subject and their are valid reasons for both sides, but I can't accept that it doesn't hurt.


----------



## RileysMommy (Jul 18, 2011)

Oh goodness!! I have never had this done to any of my dogs...it may have been done to some of my rescues before I got them. And after seeing this....I could never do it! Thank goodness I'm mostly fond of older dogs (puppies are cute but not so much for me!) so I will never be in a place to make a decision to not do this!


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

I"m with fluffyspoos dew claws should always be removed, a few seconds of pain which they won't remember compared to a lifetime of shredded or infected pads which I see far too often on dogs whose breeder just hasn't bothered and whose owners just don't notice.
I have one twice yearly client whose dew claws have always grown right round and reentered the pad, I hate having to cause pain by cutting through quick just to get the claw out.


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

If it "needs" to be done, to spare the pooch further pain and problems with the dew claws as some have indicated, why on earth can't a _topical_ anesthetic be put on the pup to alleviate the pain of the amputation? (Is there such a thing as Lidocaine for puppies?) :sad2:


----------



## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

If you want it done, why can't it be done when the puppy is under for neutering. I am going to ask if Ruff's dew claws can be removed when he is neutered.


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

The part I found most alarming was when he pulled the tail away, ripping out what appeared to be spinal cord matter (he described it as 'a nerve'). There do exist some reports of documented nerve damage and increased risk of urinary incontinence in docked dogs. (the most comprehensive impartial summary I've come across is this Australian document http://www.lawsociety.com.au/idc/groups/public/documents/internetyounglawyers/035407.pdf) Tailless dogs to me often appear to have stiff back legs lacking the natural movement of dogs with tails.

In countries where docking is still practiced, I suspect many people looking for a puppy would be more likely to seek one with a tail had they seen what the procedure involves.


----------



## MomsCorner (Jun 21, 2011)

My sweet little Bella (toy poodle) is a rescue, same as my other 3 dogs. Unfortunately, she has a docked tail. It is sad to see that stump wiggling so fast when she is happy and I so wish they had left her tail alone.

Our neighbors have a 7 month old Pit Bull and I had never seen an undocked Pit before. He has his tail and his ears, and darned if he ain't a cutie with them! ~Kelly


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Pitts always have their tails, though you'll normally see their ears cropped for show.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

As a poodle owner (sometimes puppy buyer) in the US, I would very much prefer to find a litter with tails and dewclaws intact. But that's hard to find, and it is certainly not the only quality I am looking for. I applaud the UK and other countries for being far ahead of us on issues of preventing animal suffering, for farm animals as well as pets.

For one vet's opinion about medical reasons for not doing this surgery, see the following page:

http://www.caninesports.com/DewClawExplanation.pdf


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

In response to that dew claw explanation, this is coming from a groomer; I see far more problems with dewclaws going unnoticed and the nail curling around and growing back into the foot than I ever see foot and joint problems.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

As a breeder who does our own tail docking and dew claw removal, I may one day stop docking, but will always remove the dew claws. I was not going to partake at all in this thread, because the video was obviously made to get the reaction we are seeing here. But, one day, I will make a video of us doing it, without all the dialogue (which is clearly intended to make us feel bad) and you will see another side of the process. I will never say I like doing it...I am a wretched chicken, but if done correctly, the pups barely make a peep and go back to Mommy and in seconds are nursing, and you would not know anything just transpired, except for their appearance. I have three dogs living in my home with their dews removed and one with them, and I cannot begin to tell you what a nuisance his are. Everytime I see him rubbing near his eyes, I am terrified he is either going to damage an eye or pull it out. Fishing a dew claw out from all that coat is near impossible, and you don't dare Dremmel lest the Dremmel catch the coat and end up breaking the leg, which does happen.

In fairness to those of us who do this procedure, please take note of how long the vet in the video stands talking, holding the pup in mid air while doing so, assuring the puppy will sound frantic for this video. Again, please do not think this is something we ENJOY, but if you set things up right, you can surely make this look barbaric, and he does! Sorry if this offends you, but this video is just a nice little piece of anti docking propoganda. I will be thrilled if/when the day arrives when the CKC and AKC ban docking altogether and this is no longer an issue.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Thanks to Arreau for sharing a very interesting and obviously well-informed perspective.


----------



## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

So why don't dog owners just trim the dewclaw to keep it blunt and short instead of getting the whole toe cut off as a pup? Too much work or something? :dazed:


----------



## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

Forty years ago I watched Carolyn O'Rourke of Cabryn poodles dock the tails/ remove dewclaws of 13 puppies on my dining room table...there was one yelp and that is all, no whimpering, no other outwards signs of distress; puppies were all fine..I think I was more distressed than the puppies!
But I am with Chagall's mom now- what would be wrong with using a little topical anesthetic?


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

ladybird said:


> So why don't dog owners just trim the dewclaw to keep it blunt and short instead of getting the whole toe cut off as a pup? Too much work or something? :dazed:


The same reason they don't brush their dogs and let them get matted, the same reason they buy from puppymills, petstores and BYBs, same reason they don't get their dogs neutered or address behavior issues; they don't care.

Removing the dewclaws is one way a breeder can know he or she eliminates one potential problem in the dogs life.


Do know that I am, however, pro-tail, but very anti-dewclaw.


----------



## vtomblin (Jul 18, 2010)

I agree with Cherie. This video was made to get a rise out of people. The vet talks too much while doing the procedure. It is much more common nowadays to use tail banding instead of the surgical procedure. It is a special tiny tiny band that you use a special plier to open it up over the tail let go and 2-3 days later the tip falls off. It is super quick and pup usually doesn't notice. I know Ormar, Nightsecho and Violet Poodles dock this way. They say they will never go back to the other way as this is so much better. I love the look of the docked tail. But if the standard changes I will have to love the long tail too.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

The band is how they also dock sheeps tails.


----------



## RileysMommy (Jul 18, 2011)

After reading responses from others I feel a little better about this! I didnt like the part where he didnt even try to comfort the puppy either!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

RileysMommy said:


> After reading responses from others I feel a little better about this! I didnt like the part where he didnt even try to comfort the puppy either!


When you are the breeder, and you love those pups and have an interest in them being of sound mind, you cuddle them while you are taking them away from their mom and when you are returning the pup to her. The entire procedure for each puppy takes about three minutes start to finish. Even with the cuddling, the puppies cry before you even begin the procedure, because at three days old, all they know is their Mommy...her smell, her warmth, her taste. So, of course this goofball, holding a two day old baby in mid air, the puppy jiggling around while he is accentuating his words, is going to have the puppy frantically crying to get its Mother's attention. If you pay attention to what is going on, the puppy makes no more noise while he is suturing the tail than it was while he was telling us how awful it is that we do this to pups.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I'm with Cherie as well.

This video was made to make this process look as horrible as they could possible make it look. 

We had our first litter this past spring done by a long time and trusted vet. We brought in a towel to put the pups on that had the scent of their mom on it. Only one puppy at a time was taken from mom who remained in the back of the car suckling her little ones. That puppy was laid on the towel, we quickly marked the length of the tail to be removed, the vet quickly snipped and removed it and then put in a stitch. The dew claw was removed in an instant. We went through eight puppies much faster than I thought we would. This does not have to be the horrible process that they displayed in this video. No vet I know would hold a puppy up in the air like that. No owner would. That is intentionally causing fear and stress to a puppy for no good reason. Shame on them!

Not one of our puppies cried during this process. They were picked up, kissed, hugged and cuddled until they were laid back down to suckle on mom again; which they went right back to.

I do not 'like' to do this. I do it to follow the requirements of the PCA. I would love to see this changed as far as docking goes. I would sign something or help promote it. But, I will always have the dew claws removed. To many dogs have incurred serious harm from their dew clews.

I do like the way that Omar is doing tail docking and we need to look into that. I know that certain animals are also neutered this way. They say that it is quite painless and very successful._


----------



## sandooch (Jan 20, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> The same reason they don't brush their dogs and let them get matted, the same reason they buy from puppymills, petstores and BYBs, same reason they don't get their dogs neutered or address behavior issues; they don't care.


I take offense to this. Gigi is a BYB poodle, and I take great care of her and love her deeply. She's been spayed, up to date with her vaccination, bathed and clipped weekly, brushed daily, eats high-quality dog food, given lots of toys and a bundle of affection from everyone in my family. Before finding this board, I had never even heard the term BYB. I've also bought a puppy from a pet store when I was younger, not knowing that they came from puppy mills. My first poodle was a stray and I loved him. I just knew I wanted my last dog to be a poodle but couldn't afford $1,500 for a poodle from a reputable paper. Just because I didn't drop a butt load of money for Gigi does not mean I love her any less than if I paid top dollar and she came with papers.

Just because someone buys a dog from a pet store or a BYB does not mean they don't care about that dog. You should keep in mind that it could also mean they are not aware of what goes on behind the scenes.


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

My sister's very active corgi practically ripped the dewclaws off both his front paws in the space of a couple of months -- the first was barely healed when he hurt the second! Pain, blood, and expensive vet bills x2. I'm relieved to read that the video was a piece of propaganda, because now I don't have to feel the least bit guilty that Beau has no dew claws to damage.


----------



## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

I also agree with Cherie. Honestly, that vet was trying to upset the pup. I was with Cherie when she docked a litter and it was quick. The pups hardly fussed. They were cuddled before and after and went directly back to their mom. Certainly I didn't enjoy it. But frankly I've seen dogs fuss more about their nails being trimmed.


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Arreau, are you saying that the vet who made this video, even though he presented himself to be explaining the process and the reasons, was actually making an anti-docking video? Well, that would explain why his attitude confused the heck out of me!! He didn't seem to really know why he was doing it and didn't seem to care and also said he hopes one day he won't have to do it anymore. The whole thing was just "Huh?" I was really bothered by his careless handling of that pup. He set him up for as bad an experience as he could have!


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

sandooch said:


> I take offense to this. Gigi is a BYB poodle, and I take great care of her and love her deeply. She's been spayed, up to date with her vaccination, bathed and clipped weekly, brushed daily, eats high-quality dog food, given lots of toys and a bundle of affection from everyone in my family. Before finding this board, I had never even heard the term BYB. I've also bought a puppy from a pet store when I was younger, not knowing that they came from puppy mills. My first poodle was a stray and I loved him. I just knew I wanted my last dog to be a poodle but couldn't afford $1,500 for a poodle from a reputable paper. Just because I didn't drop a butt load of money for Gigi does not mean I love her any less than if I paid top dollar and she came with papers.
> 
> Just because someone buys a dog from a pet store or a BYB does not mean they don't care about that dog. You should keep in mind that it could also mean they are not aware of what goes on behind the scenes.



What I said does not refer to everyone. As a groomer, I would say that most of the population of pet owners do not brush their pets, and the only time the dog gets brushed is when it comes into grooming every 6-12 weeks, by which time the dog is matted. Also, it just bottles down to lack of education, which thankfully seems to be getting out more.

Good for you for taking care of Gigi as well as you do.


----------



## gr8pdls (Jul 13, 2010)

*All dogs should have docked tails*

I want to have my dog's tails docked. That's one of the reasons I got into Poodles. Its nice and clean; doesn't stir up dust; 

Puppies don't even know the docking happened at two days old. 

Unless of course you're this fool vet that's waving the poor puppy around like its a potato. That probably caused irreparable pyschological harm to the puppy. Don't trust this vet for any kind of advice. He doesn't have any kind of ethics.


----------



## catsaqqara (May 20, 2011)

When docking the tail do they have to be aware of the bones or is it ok to cut anywhere, is it ok to cut a bone in half? And what about banding, do they have to place the band on a joint or will it go through the bone? Just curious 

I don't have the stomach to watch that video, this coming from someone who eats while watching surgeries for fun.


----------



## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Removing the dewclaws is one way a breeder can know he or she eliminates one potential problem in the dogs life.


So... what happens in nature? Do wild animals get problems from having a dewclaw? I always noticed for example in my pet bunny, the dewclaw doesn't seem to grow at all. I check/clip his nails regularly and when I check the dewclaw, it's fine, it seems to stay short on its own. (makes sense because it never touches the ground and so won't get worn down by digging, walking, etc. so why should it grow?). Seriously I'm wondering why something which is put there by nature is such a danger to the animal? Does the dewclaw grow constantly like the other nails in dogs?


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ladybird said:


> So... what happens in nature? Do wild animals get problems from having a dewclaw? I always noticed for example in my pet bunny, the dewclaw doesn't seem to grow at all. I check/clip his nails regularly and when I check the dewclaw, it's fine, it seems to stay short on its own. (makes sense because it never touches the ground and so won't get worn down by digging, walking, etc. so why should it grow?). Seriously I'm wondering why something which is put there by nature is such a danger to the animal? Does the dewclaw grow constantly like the other nails in dogs?


The dew claws grow at the same rate as the other nails, but have no way of being worn off from walking on concrete, gravel, etc. I used to groom in salons and saw the same thing fluffyspoos described...dews that had been ignored or forgotten about that had grown in a circle back into the foot. THAT to me is much worse than removing the potential problem when the pup is three days old. When you cut that toenail it is much different than taking the tips of well maintained nails. It is a struggle the make the first cut, and then you have to pull the nail that has grown into the foot out, which leaves a hole, sometimes an oozing, infected hole, which needs vet attention.

I would imagine there are loads in injuries in nature. I cannot imagine why there wouldn't be. 

I am sure the dew claw served a practical purpose at some time, just like our appendix.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

ladybird said:


> So... what happens in nature? Do wild animals get problems from having a dewclaw? I always noticed for example in my pet bunny, the dewclaw doesn't seem to grow at all. I check/clip his nails regularly and when I check the dewclaw, it's fine, it seems to stay short on its own. (makes sense because it never touches the ground and so won't get worn down by digging, walking, etc. so why should it grow?). Seriously I'm wondering why something which is put there by nature is such a danger to the animal? Does the dewclaw grow constantly like the other nails in dogs?


I imagine dogs and foxes in the wild would actually be using that dewclaw to it's fullest, unlike domestic dogs that don't need to. Using their dewclaws to climb, keep from falling off rocks, gripping prey. I'm sure that there are injuries in nature though, and I have ALWAYS wanted to see a wild dog or coyote up close to study it's anatomy; teeth, claws, feet, ears.

And nature doesn't always protect it's own animals. There's wild boars who's tusks grow so long and wild that it'll actually grow though the top jaw, and sometimes even back into the skull; killing it.

Porcupines skin has a natural antibiotic so if it falls from a tree (not uncommon) and gets punctured by it's own quill it can avoid infection, though that's not to say that they don't completely puncture themselves in a vital spot.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

max has his declaws (my male cairn) and i have to remind the groomer to trim them because they forget. 
he was limping one day and it had curled in and was poking his leg


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I imagine dogs and foxes in the wild would actually be using that dewclaw to it's fullest, unlike domestic dogs that don't need to. Using their dewclaws to climb, keep from falling off rocks, gripping prey. I'm sure that there are injuries in nature though, and I have ALWAYS wanted to see a wild dog or coyote up close to study it's anatomy; teeth, claws, feet, ears.
> 
> And nature doesn't always protect it's own animals. There's wild boars who's tusks grow so long and wild that it'll actually grow though the top jaw, and sometimes even back into the skull; killing it.
> 
> Porcupines skin has a natural antibiotic so if it falls from a tree (not uncommon) and gets punctured by it's own quill it can avoid infection, though that's not to say that they don't completely puncture themselves in a vital spot.



_Wild canine's do use their dew claws. Our domesticated canines no longer have any use for them, so that is why they end up growing into their legs if not taken care of. Removal of them is a kindness in my opinion since most people forget that they are there and need to be clipped with the rest of the nails._

How dogs climb trees


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I had several boxers ears cropped. It was far more brutal than a tail or dew claw removal as a two day old puppy. I hated doing it and am so happy it's out of favor now even though I no longer have the breed.

My puppies dam was a foreign dog and had a full tail and it was beautiful and fluffy and huge! What's wrong with a full tail? Her sire was American and was docked long. My puppy is gently docked since we are in the US, but the breeder isn't crazy about doing it and does leave the dew claws. 

I dislike my puppies dew claws and wish they had been removed. She only has them on the front legs. It would have been so much easier to have done it when they did her tail at a couple days old. Now I have the problem of whether to do it when she is spayed, which will cause far more trauma and pain to her than if they were done at 2 days old. They constantly scratch me when we play even though I keep the ends trimmed flat. I have thought about having the nails cut all the way down, but cutting through the quick hurts! I don't want to do that to her. She doesn't seem to use them to chew bones the way pro-dewclaw people have suggested to me. 

Since they are attached, I fear it will cause her a lot of discomfort to have them removed as an adult. I have thought of having the vet cut the nails all the way down when she is under anesthetic for spaying. That way she won't feel it, but I worry they may remain painful to her afterwards. Also, I need to ask the vet if they are cut all the way down, will the nail just grow back the same or will it stay nubby?

If a video was posted of spaying or neutering, how many people would refuse to do it? This is an unnatural procedure for the dog, too and far more traumatic than a tail or dewclaw as a newborn who's memory doesn't retain the trauma. Still, I would be happy if this country outlawed tail docking and ear cropping. 

What would some of you do about the annoying dewclaws? Would you cut the nail all the way down under anesthetic, have them removed entirely or just put up with the scratches?


----------



## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

Ok so in the wild, a canine's dewclaw is kept at a reasonable length from outdoors activities like gripping things... I would imagine domestic dogs would get the same natural wear by being outside a lot and doing the same sort of things. And if that isn't enough, the owner can file down the dewclaw, right? Along with checking the other nails during the routine.

So essentially the issue comes down to laziness, or forgetting to trim (why I don't know, they have 5 toes not 4!) - or whatever excuse. Seems like poor ownership to me, if you can't take care of your pet properly you shouldn't have one. Shame on anybody who neglects grooming like that to the point that claws are digging in and the fur is in mats! 

Personally I don't agree with any kind of mutilation whether it's cutting off the dewclaw toe, cutting off the tail or cutting off the ears. Responsible owners would be able to maintain them in the natural state. Maybe there needs to be more awareness that dogs do in fact have a 'thumb' claw and it needs trimmed too!


----------



## buttercup123 (Oct 7, 2010)

ladybird said:


> Ok so in the wild, a canine's dewclaw is kept at a reasonable length from outdoors activities like gripping things... I would imagine domestic dogs would get the same natural wear by being outside a lot and doing the same sort of things. And if that isn't enough, the owner can file down the dewclaw, right? Along with checking the other nails during the routine.
> 
> So essentially the issue comes down to laziness, or forgetting to trim (why I don't know, they have 5 toes not 4!) - or whatever excuse. Seems like poor ownership to me, if you can't take care of your pet properly you shouldn't have one. Shame on anybody who neglects grooming like that to the point that claws are digging in and the fur is in mats!
> 
> Personally I don't agree with any kind of mutilation whether it's cutting off the dewclaw toe, cutting off the tail or cutting off the ears. Responsible owners would be able to maintain them in the natural state. Maybe there needs to be more awareness that dogs do in fact have a 'thumb' claw and it needs trimmed too!


Mmm not how it works, no matter how long the nail is it can still get caught on things and ripped. The actual bone that dangles is what can also get caught and ripped. 

Someone said why not do it while the puppy is under for neuter, because by then the bone is developed and WILL cause the dog dis comfort and pain.
When it is done at 2 days old the bone isn't developed and soft so it doesn't hurt. 
Then people ask why not numb the tail first, that hurts more then the cutting and is so much more fuss for the puppy getting them all worked up. Plus usually when someone is going to go through the pain of numbing the tail they will stitch the tail too which is more un necessary prodding and pain. 

In the wild animals dont have the same things to worry about with the dew claws getting caught. Dogs live in a house with multiple things that they can get caught on, a simple one is chain link fences.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

My understanding is that most breeds have dewclaws that are not removed. Maybe someone who knows more about this than I do can address the issue of why it is OK for a lab to have dewclaws, but not a poodle? I don't think Lab or Golden owners have problems with their pets' dew claws. But maybe I'm wrong. Any thoughts?


----------



## phrannie (Jan 8, 2011)

> Whether or not docking is okay, whether you choose to do it, like the look, dislike, whatever, *please* don't just hold a crying puppy for several minutes to elevate their level of fear/excitement and sensitivity while making puns and guessing as to why you're about to remove its appendages. Gaahhhh!!!!


*This I think upset puppy far more than the actual procedures...being flopped from hand to hand, and generally treated like an inanimate object...Didn't think I could watch at first (I was born queasy, I think....), but I did and didn't get queasy at all (well, except when he showed the little tails all lined up...yuck).

p*


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

ladybird said:


> Ok so in the wild, a canine's dewclaw is kept at a reasonable length from outdoors activities like gripping things... I would imagine domestic dogs would get the same natural wear by being outside a lot and doing the same sort of things. And if that isn't enough, the owner can file down the dewclaw, right? Along with checking the other nails during the routine.
> 
> So essentially the issue comes down to laziness, or forgetting to trim (why I don't know, they have 5 toes not 4!) - or whatever excuse. Seems like poor ownership to me, if you can't take care of your pet properly you shouldn't have one. Shame on anybody who neglects grooming like that to the point that claws are digging in and the fur is in mats!
> 
> Personally I don't agree with any kind of mutilation whether it's cutting off the dewclaw toe, cutting off the tail or cutting off the ears. Responsible owners would be able to maintain them in the natural state. Maybe there needs to be more awareness that dogs do in fact have a 'thumb' claw and it needs trimmed too!


A domestic dog is just that, _domestic_. He or she isn't digging to catch prey or grabbing an animal to eat it, they are going for walks on sidewalks and sleeping on couches. Yes, allowing the dewclaws to overgrow can be poor ownership, but that won't even ever happen if they're not even there to begin with. I think you're missing this point.


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Let's all remember that Poodles are not, and never were, "wild". So many domestic animals have been man-made, so to speak. They cannot survive (or at least not comfortably) in "natural" conditions without human help. Even if a Poodle were to run with a wolf pack (that's a fun image!!) there's a good chance she wouldn't wear down her dew claws simply because the anatomy is not the same. Just like anal glands don't express themselves in many domestic breeds and coats don't stay "naturally" tangle-free. So, the "natural" argument just doesn't apply here. 

That said, I would personally rather trim my pup's dew-claws every week than remove them because it's easier. But, I'm a groomer!! Lots of breeds have dewclaws that rarely, if ever, get in the way. Again, I think it comes down to anatomy. Some breeds are more "dangley" than others! I hope that in the future, breeds with floppy dew claws or sensitive tails (Boxers, for example, are docked because their tails are so thin and bony they often split open from catching or even just wagging on things!) will be bred to correct these issues and then docking won't be needed to improve their quality of life. : ) There's a breeder in England who's created a line of naturally bob-tailed boxers!! I think that's awesome!


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

Ok three points I'd like to make here

1) a domestic dog is not a wolf and has very little in common with wild dogs we have spent thousands of years encouraging mutation and developing creatures that would never survive in the wild a wolfs dew claw is attached tightly to the leg and lies neatly alongside the leg. a lot of domestic dogs have dew claws that are not fully attached and flop around therefore they catch on things much more easily. 

2) even though wolves claws are infinitely superior to those of the domestic dog they still sometimes do have accidents and rip them, very few wild animals live to old age most live a short painful life and can die or become crippled from infections and injuries that would be considered minor in a domestic dog 

3) While it's all very well saying owners should be more responsible and take care of their own dogs claws the reality is most owners aren't like that and never will be no matter how much people try to reeducate them. I would say fewer than one in ten of my clients is a truly responsible owner and does everything a good owner should, one in ten is downright negligent and allows their dog to suffer, the rest fall somewhere in between.
If breeders only homed to that mystical truly responsible owner they'd be keeping three quarters of the puppies bred.
Don't forget the people on boards such as these are likely to fall into the higher category and are few and far between in the real world, for most people a dog is a companion that they love but their life does not revolve around.
Therefore to argue that "mutilation" such as removing dew claws shouldn't happen because owners should be more responsible is just like saying the sky should be green because it's a better colour, realistically it's never going to happen and dogs shouldn't suffer because of it.

Whoops sorry for the rant but this is an issue I feel strongly about


----------



## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

buttercup123 said:


> Mmm not how it works, no matter how long the nail is it can still get caught on things and ripped. The actual bone that dangles is what can also get caught and ripped.
> 
> In the wild animals dont have the same things to worry about with the dew claws getting caught. Dogs live in a house with multiple things that they can get caught on, a simple one is chain link fences.


Surely it makes it a lot less likely to catch if the claw is short/blunt than if it is sharp like a hook?

2nd part... Wild animals don't have to worry about fences...? :confused3:




peppersb said:


> My understanding is that most breeds have dewclaws that are not removed. Maybe someone who knows more about this than I do can address the issue of why it is OK for a lab to have dewclaws, but not a poodle? I don't think Lab or Golden owners have problems with their pets' dew claws. But maybe I'm wrong. Any thoughts?


I thought about that too. None of the people I've known who owned dogs had ones with dewclaws cut off as far as I know, e.g. labs, border collies... and I've never heard of them catching on things either :afraid:



Fluffyspoos said:


> A domestic dog is just that, _domestic_. He or she isn't digging to catch prey or grabbing an animal to eat it, they are going for walks on sidewalks and sleeping on couches. Yes, allowing the dewclaws to overgrow can be poor ownership, but that won't even ever happen if they're not even there to begin with. I think you're missing this point.


If they have access to outside they would be pawing around and doing natural behaviours. However if they are house-bound, of course none of their claws would be getting worn down... but a farm dog for example would rarely need their claws trimmed because they are outside all the time wearing them down on their own.

I know it wouldn't happen if they weren't there to begin with, I'm trying to say how problems with dewclaws could be avoided or minimised by keeping them trimmed... rather than resorting to the operation... as an alternative


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

peppersb said:


> My understanding is that most breeds have dewclaws that are not removed. Maybe someone who knows more about this than I do can address the issue of why it is OK for a lab to have dewclaws, but not a poodle? I don't think Lab or Golden owners have problems with their pets' dew claws. But maybe I'm wrong. Any thoughts?


My sisters staffy rips his claws frequently (maybe three or four times a year) twice they've gotten infected and had to be treated. Most owners don't even notice unless it becomes badly infected and the dog starts limping, groomers do because we inspect every inch of the dog during drying and grooming, we're also far more likely to pick up hot spots abcesses and mysterious lumps than the average owner.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Anntig said:


> Ok three points I'd like to make here
> 
> 1) *a domestic dog is not a wolf and has very little in common with wild dogs we have spent thousands of years encouraging mutation and developing creatures that would never survive in the wild a wolfs dew claw is attached tightly to the leg and lies neatly alongside the leg. a lot of domestic dogs have dew claws that are not fully attached and flop around therefore they catch on things much more easily. *
> 
> ...


 I just wanted to point out that, while domesticated dogs have evolved quite a bit on the outside, they still share nearly all of their genetic makeup with wolves. 99.9%. In fact, dogs are scientifically considered to be a subspecies of the wolf - AKA, they really are the same species. 

Carry on with the dewclaw debate.  I don't have a dog in this fight ()


----------



## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

or a dewclaw...


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I just wanted to point out that, while domesticated dogs have evolved quite a bit on the outside, they still share nearly all of their genetic makeup with wolves. 99.9%. In fact, dogs are scientifically considered to be a subspecies of the wolf - AKA, they really are the same species.


There seems to be a fad lately to call dogs a subspecies of wolves. Domestic dogs evolved from wolves over thousands of years of selective breeding. The domestic dog has around the same percentage of DNA with wolves as humans do with Bonobo's, a great ape that resembles a chimpanzee except for the long arms and legs and tendency to walk upright. Dogs are now so different that behaviorally, physically and, yes, genetically, they are as different from wolves as we are from Bonobos. 

Dogs retain some wolflike behaviors just as we retain some monkey like behaviors (war?). Tigers and lions can be bred together. Dogs and wolves can be bred together. Some say the Bonobo chimpanzee and a human could interbreed, although I would be appalled, of course. Bonobos and humans share 98.5% of the same DNA. Dogs and wolves share about 98.5-99.5% depending on who you listen to. About the same.

edit to add site about Bonobos.

Here is a little info on Bonobos, fascinating apes:
http://www.animalfactguide.com/animalfacts/bonobo/


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> . . . dogs are scientifically considered to be a subspecies of the wolf - AKA, they really are the same species.


In fact, dogs and wolves can mate and have hybrid offpring, which -- given what's going on today with designer dogs -- makes me wonder how long before someone starts breeding wolfadoodles. :aetsch:


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

LEUllman said:


> In fact, dogs and wolves can mate and have hybrid offpring, which -- given what's going on today with designer dogs -- makes me wonder how long before someone starts breeding wolfadoodles. :aetsch:


Yikes hate to think what that'd produce 
DNA doesn't mean much we share 50% with a banana and 92% with a mouse 
hmmm I wonder if I could create a mousoodle to go along with my loodle :aetsch:


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

LEUllman said:


> In fact, dogs and wolves can mate and have hybrid offpring, which -- given what's going on today with designer dogs -- makes me wonder how long before someone starts breeding wolfadoodles. :aetsch:


Or maybe wolfiepoos?:dog:


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Anntig said:


> Yikes hate to think what that'd produce
> DNA doesn't mean much we share 50% with a banana and 92% with a mouse
> hmmm I wonder if I could create a mousoodle to go along with my loodle :aetsch:


We cannot mate with a banana though and produce fertile offspring.......


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Anntig said:


> Yikes hate to think what that'd produce
> DNA doesn't mean much we share 50% with a banana and 92% with a mouse
> hmmm I wonder if I could create a mousoodle to go along with my loodle :aetsch:


Mousoodle might work, seeing as there's already plenty of mouspoo!:toilet:


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Clearly, the only dignified name for a cross between a Poodle and a wolf is a Poof. Okay, possibly Woodle. : P

Chagall's mom, I LOVE your signature pic!! I would love to get a puppy who has a color change just to watch it! I had to go with white for the creative freedom, though. I suppose I could dye her black just to watch it grow out, but it's not quite the same. : P She does have a lot of puppy-cream right now that I get to watch change, so that's cool. : )


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> We cannot mate with a banana though and produce fertile offspring.......


i was gonna make a comment re: mating with a banana and dr. ruth, but i'll not.


----------



## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

PammiPoodle said:


> Lots of breeds have dewclaws that rarely, if ever, get in the way. Again, I think it comes down to anatomy. Some breeds are more "dangley" than others!


Ohh, I didn't know different breeds have different dewclaw positions/types. So is the poodle a 'dangly dewclaw' type breed?



Anntig said:


> 3) While it's all very well saying owners should be more responsible and take care of their own dogs claws the reality is most owners aren't like that and never will be no matter how much people try to reeducate them. I would say fewer than one in ten of my clients is a truly responsible owner and does everything a good owner should, one in ten is downright negligent and allows their dog to suffer, the rest fall somewhere in between.
> If breeders only homed to that mystical truly responsible owner they'd be keeping three quarters of the puppies bred.
> Don't forget the people on boards such as these are likely to fall into the higher category and are few and far between in the real world, for most people a dog is a companion that they love but their life does not revolve around.
> Therefore to argue that "mutilation" such as removing dew claws shouldn't happen because owners should be more responsible is just like saying the sky should be green because it's a better colour, realistically it's never going to happen and dogs shouldn't suffer because of it.


It's true a lot of people don't care much about their pets (why do they have them??) but it's no reason to think that they will always be like that. With proper education (and them having the right attitude) it would at least make more people aware of what care is needed so they are less likely to neglect. I'm sure this is why quite a few breeders 'vet' prospective homes which their puppies will be going to... to make sure they will get proper care! (many do that here in the UK, same with rescue shelters. Maybe the attitude in the UK is better on average?). And people who can't find responsible homes for their puppies should maybe think twice about breeding, or breed less often?


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

ladybird said:


> Ohh, I didn't know different breeds have different dewclaw positions/types. So is the poodle a 'dangly dewclaw' type breed?


My poodle has them on her front legs (none on the rear) and they are firmly attached with jointed bones. She can even move them! This is why I am annoyed they were left. Removing them now would be very painful for her.


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Ladybird, since most Poodles have their dew claws removed, I would imagine there's a lot of variation in them. They're not a trait that's being bred for in any specific way. Like if tails were suddenly kept on Rottweilers, we'd see so many different lengths and shapes! But, since most Poodles don't have their dew claws, I can't say how they usually are! Haha I have seen a LOT of dew claws in my day on purebreds and mutts and, yes, some are floppier and some are tighter. Some have nails that grow like weeds and some barely grow at all. I've even seen some so vestigial they're just nails growing straight out of the skin, no "thumb" to be seen!


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

ladybird said:


> It's true a lot of people don't care much about their pets (why do they have them??) but it's no reason to think that they will always be like that. With proper education (and them having the right attitude) it would at least make more people aware of what care is needed so they are less likely to neglect. I'm sure this is why quite a few breeders 'vet' prospective homes which their puppies will be going to... to make sure they will get proper care! (many do that here in the UK, same with rescue shelters. Maybe the attitude in the UK is better on average?). *And people who can't find responsible homes for their puppies should maybe think twice about breeding, or breed less often?*


While this sounds nice on paper, it really isn't the reality. Lots of people, BYB, petstoes, and puppymills, don't care where their puppies go, just the money that they get for them.


----------



## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> While this sounds nice on paper, it really isn't the reality. Lots of people, BYB, petstoes, and puppymills, don't care where their puppies go, just the money that they get for them.


Thankfully in this country that isn't the general attitude. America needs to care more! :argh:


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

ladybird said:


> Thankfully in this country that isn't the general attitude. America needs to care more! :argh:


Wow. And what superior country are you from?


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

The US is a fully capitalist society with vast successes and dismal failures. You don't see these huge contrasts as much in countries that are basically half socialist and half capitalist like much of Europe and Canada, for example. People pull together more, yet everything is more middling. There are plusses and minuses to both systems, 
...but, that's another forum.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> The US is a fully capitalist society with vast successes and dismal failures. You don't see these huge contrasts as much in countries that are basically half socialist and half capitalist like much of Europe and Canada, for example. People pull together more, yet everything is more middling. There are plusses and minuses to both systems,
> ...but, that's another forum.


I understand that the US is a fully capitalist society, and I have lived in Europe. Yet, for someone to say that America needs to care more is not appropriate for this forum and is offensive. It can be equally argued that other countries need to care more. Again, an inappropriate and preposterous comment from that poster.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

ladybird said:


> Thankfully in this country that isn't the general attitude. America needs to care more! :argh:


No, you're just being ignorant believing in a perfect world that doesn't exist.


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I'll make the comment...yay no tail docking, ear cropping, or dewclaw removal in Europe <--- sarcasm...yet it seems odd that only about 10% of the breeders there do ANY health testing, then about another 20% only tests hips sooooooooooo I think. I'll take my barbaric ways and not caring thank you very much ^_^


----------



## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

Well, here in the UK I've never heard of puppy mills, and as far as I know it is illegal to sell puppies or kittens in pet shops now. It's a much smaller country and bad breeders are quickly shunned etc. Shelters are not overflowing, not in this part of the country anyway, there are only relatively few animals there at any one time (I'd be very hard pressed to find a poodle for example if I wanted to rescue one!). Maybe it's just to do with population level of the country and regulations, I don't know. But I live up north and a large portion of pedigree dog breeders in this area are very ethical when it comes to breeding - they do health test and such


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

A friendly reminder | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Just sayin


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

ladybird said:


> Well, here in the UK I've never heard of puppy mills, and as far as I know it is illegal to sell puppies or kittens in pet shops now. It's a much smaller country and bad breeders are quickly shunned etc. Shelters are not overflowing, not in this part of the country anyway, there are only relatively few animals there at any one time (I'd be very hard pressed to find a poodle for example if I wanted to rescue one!). Maybe it's just to do with population level of the country and regulations, I don't know. But I live up north and a large portion of pedigree dog breeders in this area are very ethical when it comes to breeding - they do health test and such[/QU
> 
> Ever heard the term puppy farm?? No developed country is free of these issues and the fact that you are unaware doesn't mean the problem isn't there, 5 mins on google and you'll find plenty of evidence
> To get you started
> ...


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I don't think the poster bashing a whole country was appropriate either, CM, especially on a poodle forum. 

Keith, excellent point.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I just don't think she realizes that it's not just a problem in America. America tends to publicize things that other countries wouldn't. Also, I don't think she works in the animal world, vet techs and groomers and whatnot see first hand the irresponsibility that owners can have, be it in the US, UK, Canada, ect.

You're not going to see that puppymill bitch at the dog park with her saggy stomach and emaciated body, you're not going to see that matted mop dog that hasn't been brushed or bathed in 6 months going for a walk with it's owner. Those working with animals will see this, like me or other groomers, and we are going to talk about it and tell people about it to spread the word and hope more can be done.

I'm not going to take the country bashing as an insult, but rather an opportunity to educate and let it be known that irresponsible owners are everywhere.

Hell, there's even dog fighting in the UK, that is not just an American thing, I've seen a documentary on it somewhere in the UK.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I don't think the poster should be bashing a whole country with a generalization either, CM. There are people that like to find any reason to say mean things about the US. It gets tiresome to those of us who love our country. We do have a lot of people out for only themselves because we are a capitalist society. Even so, other countries have the same issues we do. Whereever there are people, people will take advantage where they can. 

In a previous post I made the comment that I wouldn't mind it if the US banned tail, ear and dew claw removal. I want to retract that statement. I don't want government telling me what to do. Whether it is right or wrong, I want the choice. I would amend my statement to say I wish it was out of favor. Well, except for maybe those darned dew claws. Cut those things off. 

Keith, excellent point.


----------



## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

I didn't mean to bash a whole country (I think the US is great in a lot of ways and I wish we had the sort of freedoms you guys have), but when I see that they promote and endorse things like Rodeo shows (public displays of animal abuse..sponsors include Coca Cola)...... well it doesn't put others in a good mind about the general attitide. I'm glad there is activism against things like that like SHARK on youtube (SHowing Animals Respect and Kindness) who are exposing the cruelty that goes on and such... but obviously not enough people care about it or it wouldn't still be going on.... like for example, here fox hunting is now banned and had huge public support towards that... another step in the right direction, I think. The less legal 'sports' there are that involve animals being killed or injured or frightened/abused for entertainment the better. (Spain is another candidate with their bull fighting...and many others). I wish there were more animal lovers in the world


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

ladybird said:


> like for example, here fox hunting is now banned and had huge public support towards that... another step in the right direction, I think.


Fox hunting, yes, is technically banned. However, this doesn't stop foxhunts from hunting foxes. A hunt near where I live uses an owl to dispatch the fox, after flushing/pursuing it with hounds. I understand the owl does not make a very clean job of it. Dogs kill prey by seizing hold of it and shaking it, usually breaking the neck and causing concussion and unconsciousness quickly. I once saw someone shoot a fox through the heart, blowing a hole in it that, on later inspection, one could see daylight through. The fox ran several yards full pelt before falling down. I feel there's also a massive double standard in that people are raving about foxhunting while ignoring the poisoning of rats with warfarin and allowing them to haemorrhage to death in agony out of sight and out of mind. I don't think there's a clear answer or that banning things necessarily provides a solution. (And yes, if you had come on here and been gung-ho about foxhunting, I would have argued the other way, so it's nothing personal)

Puppy farms do unfortunately exist in the UK, largely in Wales and Ireland where regulations are weaker. Shelters do contain large numbers of dogs, mostly Staffies and mutts. Poodles are not commonly found in shelters simply because they are not a particularly popular dog in the country.

On the genetic perspective: when you compare DNA between two species, the similarity quoted depends whether you're comparing the whole genome or sequences or regions in the genetic code. This is where the '60% banana' description comes from, and it's the same sort of reasoning as saying two buildings are the similar because they are both made of bricks. Most things that have DNA use the same amino acids and protein constructions, and all DNA has large proportions of defunct areas that are non-operational in particular species. Something interesting is that in dogs, humans, and mice, there are actually sequences of genes that are identical, which suggests a convergent evolution that came about through close cohabitation (dogs and humans are symbionts and mice are parasites that scavenge from humans and dogs). Dog Genome Mapped, Shows Similarities to Humans

This is assumed to be why canine and murine models are so effective and are so widely used in laboratory studies of human diseases.

Temple Grandin once wrote that dogs are special because they are the only species that are uniquely ours, and that we are uniquely theirs. Dogs are adapted perfectly to be companions to humans. The pet and wild wolves Temple Grandin wrote about in her book were found not to share these characteristics or this innate kinship with humans, even when the wolves had been reared as pets. Dogs were also observed to be more like wolf puppies in their behaviour than adult wolves (neoteny).

Studies show that dogs are psychologically more similar to humans than apes are. http://email.eva.mpg.de/~tomas/pdf/Hare_Tomasello05.pdf I've read (and unfortunately I can't remember where) that a dog has the same emotional intelligence as a six-year-old child, and that dogs are even used in studies to model family behaviour in humans. This is really quite an amazing thing, because my dog is with me harmoniously 24 hours a day, and yet if another human were in the same position, we would start do each others' heads in after a few days!


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

outwest said:


> There seems to be a fad lately to call dogs a subspecies of wolves.


To be pedantic, it's current accepted scientific belief that it is their taxonomical classification i.e. _Canis lupus familiaris_. This doesn't necessarily mean that their behaviour or physiology is the same. Taxonomy is a controversial field that exists in a constant state of flux.



Wikipedia said:


> Note that the distinction between a species and a subspecies depends only on the likelihood that in the absence of external barriers the two populations would merge back into a single, genetically unified population. It has nothing to do with 'how different' the two groups appear to be to the human observer.


----------



## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

zyrcona said:


> Temple Grandin once wrote that dogs are special because they are the only species that are uniquely ours, and that we are uniquely theirs. Dogs are adapted perfectly to be companions to humans. The pet and wild wolves Temple Grandin wrote about in her book were found not to share these characteristics or this innate kinship with humans, even when the wolves had been reared as pets. Dogs were also observed to be more like wolf puppies in their behaviour than adult wolves (neoteny).
> 
> Studies show that dogs are psychologically more similar to humans than apes are. http://email.eva.mpg.de/~tomas/pdf/Hare_Tomasello05.pdf I've read (and unfortunately I can't remember where) that a dog has the same emotional intelligence as a six-year-old child, and that dogs are even used in studies to model family behaviour in humans. This is really quite an amazing thing, because my dog is with me harmoniously 24 hours a day, and yet if another human were in the same position, we would start do each others' heads in after a few days!


I saw something on TV about that, they did experiments comparing how dogs understand human gestures way better than chimps do (like pointing to the bucket with the treat/toy in it or whatever). Chimps don't understand pointing at all, how interesting is that?


----------



## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

zyrcona said:


> Here is a link to a video of dew claw amputation and tail docking, which I have seen mentioned on this forum before. Regardless of one's individual opinion on it, I think the video is worth watching for the educational purpose of knowing what exactly it involves.
> 
> Tail Docking and Dew Claw Removal in 2 Day-Old Pups:Torture or Not? - YouTube


Well I agree *all* people who *love* owning *animals* should watch this video. This video shows just how far *animal rights activists* will go to stop people from *owning* animals. 

The people in the video *actively cause pain* in a two day old puppy by* removing* it from the *heat and security* of its family for *over seven minutes* for tail docking and dewclaw removal. Dr. Greg may not even hold a veterinary medical degree or be a Doctor! 

Anyone who would like to hear a two day old puppy squeal just needs to pick one up and hold it loosely. They *squeal* as a *reflex* for *protection* just as they suck reflexively at two days of age.

I also have never seen or heard of anyone shaving a tail before docking or removing it. *What a bunch of misinformation!!!!*

My vet does tails and dewclaws both with glue/nitrate sticks and each puppy is finished in less than two minutes. I make sure the puppy is used to being held by people before dewclaws and tails are removed. I can not dock or remove dewclaws in my own puppies. I can do other peoples tails and dewclaws and even I don't take anywhere near seven minutes. I have done poodle and golden retrievers dewclaws and poodle tails. 

_Reputable poodle breeders_ do not cut tails that short, usually they just remove the top quarter. In the days before glue - when a stitching the opening was done - I always removed the stitch 7 days later.

Banding has been done for years in livestock. It has been proven to cause weight loss over a longer period of time than actually cutting off the tail. Usually, with banding, the tail falls off 10 days after the band is applied so there is also some discomfort or pain and this causes the weight loss in livestock. Banding is just a less bloodless method of tail docking.

Some breeds such as great pyrenees have breed standards that call for double dewclaws so these breeders have improved the strength of their dogs`dewclaws. The poodle breed, in general, does not have a strong attachment to the bone for the dewclaw so it remains floppy and easily caught on things.

Some breeders do not remove tails and dewclaws because they *do not want to pay *someone else to do it and this cuts into the bottom line of profit. 

Whether you agree or do not agree with tail docking or dewclaw removal I wish you would *stand up *for the *rights of animal owners*. 

Animal activists do not want *animal welfare* but *Animal Rights*. If and when animals develop rights no one will be allowed to own an animal. 

Please* think *long and hard about whether you really want to start on the slippery slope of *not owning* pets at all because that is what animal rights mean.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Rayah, Very good food for thought. Thank you._


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Just a comment about rodeos:
The US has rodeos. They are ingrained in the history of the Western United States going back to the wild frontier. Like Spain's bullfighting, it is cultural as much as it is competition. There is a lot more to rodeos than bullriding, like Barrel Racing. It's part of our heritage. Unlike the outlawed fox hunts and bull fighting, no animals are killed in rodeos. Even if bull riding or broncho riding ended, there is plenty of rodeo that hurts no animals at all.


----------



## apriljean80 (Aug 23, 2010)

I was going to discuss rodeo but Outwest beat me to it. Thanks, Outwest, you said it better than I could have!


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> Animal activists do not want *animal welfare* but *Animal Rights*. If and when animals develop rights no one will be allowed to own an animal.


This is a preposterous generalization. Many individuals and organizations are deeply concerned about the welfare of animals and they take much needed action against the cruelty involved in puppy mills, industrial food production, dog fighting, cock fighting, etc. This does not mean that they are against a owning animals. As one example, pigs are smarter than dogs and just as social, but mother pigs spend most of their lives isolated in individual crates in which they can not even turn around, let alone interact with others of their own species. They live on slatted floors so that their excement can pass through to the vats below them which fill their lungs with the stench of their excrement. Is that something that we should turn a blind eye to because of some imaginary slippery slope that will prevent us from owning animals? I think we should all be fighting against cruelty to animals wherever we see it.

Matthew Scully, author of _Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals and a Call to Mercy_ has this to say:

"Animals are more than ever a test of our character, of mankind’s capacity for empathy and for decent, honorable conduct and faithful stewardship. We are called to treat them with kindness, not because they have rights, power or a claim to equality, but in a sense, because they don’t. They all stand unequal and powerless before us." 

I stopped eating industrially raised pork after reading Scully's chapter on pork and I urge everyone to become aware of issues of animal cruelty in our society and to do whatever you can to stop unnecessary cruelty to animals.


----------



## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

peppersb said:


> This is a preposterous generalization.
> 
> Many individuals and organizations are deeply concerned about the welfare of animals and they take much needed action against the cruelty involved in puppy mills, industrial food production, dog fighting, cock fighting, etc. This does not mean that they are against a owning animals.


Dear Peppersb:

I am sorry you think I am generalizing animal cruelty. Nothing is further from my mind. I believe in *animal welfare* but this video shows Animal Right Activists using a puppy to *inflame* and *shock* for the purpose of raising money/donations to further their *propaganda* that no human should *own any animals*. The people who make videos like this are often *no better than terrorists*. 

Please read the below links.

*Animal Right Activists are not concerned with Animal Welfare.* 

From AnimalScam | Animal Rights Is Not Animal Welfare

_Animal-rights activists believe that animals should be completely separate from humankind. Their goal is to guarantee that the human race has absolutely no access to animals, no matter how important they may be for our survival and progress.

Ingrid Newkirk, co-founder and president of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), summed up the goal of today's modern animal rights movement in a recent speech. "Our goal," Newkirk told the Animal Rights 2002 convention, "is total animal liberation."_

From Animal Rights vs Animal Welfare - What you should know 

_Animal Rights (AR) is a radical ideology that attempts to elevate species of animals to equality with humans by applying human interpretations of morality. A core tenet of animal rights philosophy is that no species on this planet is better than another; therefore, humans have no right to dominate over, use, breed, or eat nonhuman species. _

_Animal Rights groups routinely use false and unsubstantiated allegations of animal abuse or non-existent problems to raise funds, attract media attention, and bring supporters into the movement.

An example of this is the continuing campaign against breeding of dogs due to an "overpopulation crisis". The public is told repeatedly never buy animals from pet stores or breeders -- with millions of animals dying in shelters, there is no reason for any animal to be bred --don't breed, don't buy while shelter animals die.

The real truth about animal abandonment is that it has dramatically __decreased since 1973 and only a small portion of the total owned animal population are abandoned and euthanized._

I cannot get the table from this website to copy and paste but the numbers show that # Euthanized in Shelters has dropped from 21% of the pet population in 1973 to 3.12% in 2001. These numbers are based on information from HUSU State of Animals 2001

From Animal Welfare vs. Animal Rights

_Animal rights advocates reject all animal use, no matter how humane. Some have even suggested that *animal welfare reforms impede progress toward animal rights because they improve the conditions under which "animal exploitation" occurs, making it more difficult to stimulate public opposition to animal use*._

From Animal Welfare vs. Animal Rights

_ Animal rights proponents believe that violence, misinformation and publicity stunts are valid uses of funding donated to their tax-exempt organizations for the purpose of helping animals.
Arson, vandalism and assault are common tactics used by underground animal rights groups to further the animal rights cause. Groups such as the Animal Liberation Front, which have been classified as terrorist by the FBI, routinely use criminal activities to further their cause.
_

Animal Welfare is not the same as Animal Rights.

From the CKC Code of Ethics: All members of The Canadian Kennel Club will endeavour to enhance the role of the purebred dog in society as an essential member of its communities where it functions as a companion, a guardian, a healer, a hunter, a herder, a teacher and, above all, "man's best friend"; 

I am a member of the CKC and am using this opportunity as a reputable breeder to educate others. Off my soapbox for today!


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

People like Temple Grandin, whom I already mentioned, are animal welfare people. Temple Grandin has pioneered many important innovations in the abattoir industry to ensure slaughter of livestock is as stress-free and swift as possible. This is different to animal rights. People who genuinely care about the welfare of lab rats become lab inspectors or design cages to lower stress and suchlike; they don’t shove petrol bombs through researchers’ letterboxes and stalk their children.

I agree that animal rights organisations and the people involved in them are often extreme and unreasonable. Like any form of terrorism, the terrorists are simply misanthropes abusing a philosophy or belief system as a carapace of respectability. The terrorists who grave-robbed the grandmother from the Darley-Oaks guinea pig farm care no more about animals than the person who murdered the American doctor who performed abortions cared about human rights, or the people who blew up the London public transport on 7/7 cared about Islam. PETA is full of misanthropic excrement (if lions in the wild are allowed to eat according to their natural urges, why not humans?) and some of them even present the idea that man-made animals (such as dogs) are immoral and should become extinct.

Whereas I don’t exactly support the idea of the upper classes tearing about the countryside on horseback and watching their dogs kill foxes in the name of sport, I don’t think the ban really accomplishes anything. It came about not because of animal welfare reasons, but more because the government that was in power at the time held a loathing for the aristocracy and their traditional pursuits.

I did not think the video was particularly biased either way. The vet performing the procedure struck me as an ass, but it appears he is some sort of celebrity/personality vet peddling a diet he has designed, so I suppose that’s to be expected. I did think it unnecessary that he stood there holding the puppy while he was speaking, but he did explain that the puppy was crying because it had been taken from his mother and stated that its reaction during the procedure was little different to that it had displayed before. If anyone has a video of any of the alternative methods, or if one of the people who thought it was biased has a video of the procedure they believe not to be biased, I would be interested in seeing it if they would like to add it to the discussion.

I personally don't like docked tails, mainly for aesthetic reasons and because I see no point to it, and don't have an opinion either way on dew claws. I don't think the ban helps particularly, because if people want to treat an animal abusively they will do it anyway, but prior to this it was very difficult to buy a dog of a breed that specified a docked tail in its standard with a proper tail. I would strongly support the removal of references to docking from breed standards. It was my impression that before the ban, breeders felt obliged to have the operation done so as not to risk having a penalty applied later to a dog that might turn out to be show ring material.

Pigs: unless there has been further progress since I last looked at the evidence, the data on the intelligence of pigs being greater than that of dogs hinges on an experiment in which the pigs/dogs had to use a joystick to guide a blob on a screen to a coloured square for a reward. The pigs could do it unaided, but the dogs could only do it if a person used a finger to touch the target on the screen. I don’t think this comparison works that well because of differences in the two species. Pigs spend most of their time grubbing about on the floor foraging for food and are thus used to interpreting a two-dimensional plane (the floor or a screen). Dogs are athletic animals who chase and jump. They can’t see the red part of the spectrum and have eyesight more oriented to identifying 3D general shapes and motion than details. This may also go some way to explain why dogs fail the mirror test.

This doesn’t, of course, mean I don’t think pigs are intelligent or that they deserve better welfare than they often get.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I read in the New York Times that yesterday was the last day of bullfighting in the Catalonia region of Spain. Note that the NYT refers to the role of "animal rights activists" in their reporting:

"But such scenes of enthusiasm for bullfighting are no longer the norm these days in Spain. Not only have animal rights activists increased pressure to outlaw the fights — as was the case in Catalonia — but bullfighting is also confronting a financial crisis that has forced public subsidy cuts to local venues that once relied on them."

I don't think that those who are fighting against bullfighting in Spain have any secret agenda against pet ownership and I think lots of so-called animal rights activists are doing wonderful things to eliminate various kinds of abuse.

In a world where bulls, dogs and cocks are killed for spectator entertainment, the idea that a campaign against the "cruelty" of pet ownership is ever going to be credible is crazy. If anyone has such an agenda, they are so far out on the fringe of reasonable public opinion that I don't think it is worth taking them seriously. 

Rayah said: "The people who make videos like this are often no better than terrorists." You are comparing what happened on 9/11 to a vet who made a video to express his oposition to removing a puppy's dewclaws and tail???? 

Rayah refers to this vet and/or the makers of the video as "Animal Right Activists" who are "using a puppy to inflame and shock for the purpose of raising money/donations to further their propaganda that no human should own any animals." He looked to me like a guy that just didn't think dewclaws and tails should be removed. His web site shows a vet who seems interested in nutrition and in selling his book on that topic. What possible evidence do you have that he is against pet ownership?

I think that poodle breeders and animal lovers of all sorts should be working aggressively against all forms of animal cruelty, not maligning those who do care about such issues. It is one thing to disagree with an opinion expressed, but quite another to claim that those who you disagree with have a secret agenda against pet ownership or to say that they are like terrorists.


----------



## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

Pepperb- you really have aggressively strong opinions that make one think you could be a mite intolerant to those of us that don't share your particular viewpoint on animal welfare.
Certainly you are entitled to think any way you want to-- but I also get to decide on issues such as tail docking, dewclaw removal, the eating of meat - or wearing my fur coats - and I am just happy that in the US we still can exercise our freedom to live with our own convictions..
So, I have to respectfully ask you to not condemn me out of hand because I don't live by your principles.
Pax Amicus


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Hi Papoodles,

The aggressively strong opinion that I was stating in the previous post, is that I don't think that it is fair to claim that someone who takes a stand against dew claw and tail removal is like a terrorist or has an agenda against pet ownership. That's quite a stretch!

I did not mean to imply that I agree with the vet that made the video. Based on some of the very informative posts here, I tend to think that removing dewclaws and the ends of the tails is OK. I recently purchased a puppy who had dew claws removed and tail shortened, so it is certainly not something that I am campaigning against. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. 

You and I are both welcome to have opinions that differ. There is a whole range of animal cruelty issues, and I suspect that we would agree on some and disagree on others. I am in favor of individual liberty, but I am also in favor of laws that protect our animals against the worst abuses (e.g., dog fighting, puppy mills and some of the worst abuses in the meat industry). You certainly do not need to agree with me, and I most certainly did not mean to condemn you. Thanks for your post. Peace.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Genesis 1:26: Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Whether you are a Christian or not, I believe most people agree with and live by the above passage. 

Although man is in the animal kingdom, man is at the top of the order; for better or for worse. We have an innate responsibility to care for all, be it the world we live on, the animals that share it with us, the food we grow and our fellow human beings. We are the stewards of the earth and all that is upon it.

Everyone has to make their own interpretation and live by and be responsible for it; that includes all people, from those who don't care to moderates to extremists. 

I believe that all things are here for our use. How we use them determines who we are. We have the freedom to choose to use animals in a way that is humane or to choose to use them in a way that is abusive. I rescued PMU horses for a few years. I know about the emotional scars left on these beautiful creatures all for the sake of the human female medication Premarin. Picture mares bred back to back to back standing in tiny stalls with an apparatus attached to them that collects their urine during their entire pregnancy. They cannot leave this stall until they deliver their foals. When they are used up, they get a rescue home if they are VERY lucky or they find their way to the slaughter houses. Surely there are better ways.

I eat meat; I hunt for my meat. I make a kill as quick and as painless as possible. When I get to my animal, I kneel beside it and thank God for the meat that will sustain me and my family throughout the year. I care about the animal whose life I just took to feed us. I do not rejoice in the death of that animal, but I am thankful for what it will provide for us. I am very careful to make sure that this animal is of appropriate age and not a mother with young standing somewhere nearby and I hunt in season only even if we did not get an animal for our freezer.

We are faced with choices every moment of every day that challenge our morals and ethics. Life is complicated. We hope that we make the best choices for all involved. Sometimes we fail, but mostly, we do good. We certainly don't agree on everything.

I do not agree with extremists in any situation. I don't believe that good will ever come from extremist movements. I like people and organizations that take a moderate stance, are truly concerned for the welfare of their cause and prove that by what they do for it. 

I would not compare the posted video and the vet to a terrorist as I do feel that is very extreme. I do believe that he is not behaving in a way that makes him a good steward of animals. His actions were extreme for the situation. I don't know what his 'real' intentions were when he made this video, or if he even had any ulterior motive regarding book sales or what have you. I do know that what he did was deliberately distressing to the puppy, and it was to provoke a reaction. Just judging from the posting in this thread, it is obvious that he has been very successful in doing that. 

Going back to docked tails, I personally don't like the idea of taking off the top of a puppies tail either. I would be open to a sensible protest against the practice in this country. But, I will continue to remove dew claws as they are a problem in the poodle breed as far as injury is concerned. It is a mater of weighing out what you know and making an informed decision for me.

I wish we had video taped our puppies being docked. It was nothing like what happened in this video and I would have been happy to post it._


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Thanks to spoospirit for a lovely post. I applaud your decision to kill your own meat as humanely as possible and I applaud your adoption of the PMU horses. The quote from Genesis is a good reminder of the power that we humans have and of our responsibility to use that power for good.


----------



## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

spoospirit said:


> _Genesis 1:26: Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
> 
> Whether you are a Christian or not, I believe most people agree with and live by the above passage.
> 
> ...


(I feel like I need my flak jacket and kevlar in this thread! LOL) But _not _because of Spoospirit's post. 

I just wanted to say for the record that I'm not a Christian, and I personally don't feel all things are here for our _use_. (Use or exploitation.) I do agree that humans are the stewards of this planet and all that inhabits it, and furthermore, that _all _life is precious. So we might not be in complete agreement, but I wanted to thank you for your eloquent post (I had to crop some of it for space). Your reverence for life is inspiring and worthy of recognition. If only more people shared your views. 

I also wanted to applaud you for your work with the PMU mares. I'm a horse enthusiast--technically I'm obsessed with horses--and like you, I hope the medical community discovers more humane alternatives for hormone replacement therapy.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

My vet stopped by with some meds for the dogs today, so out of curiosity, I asked him if tail cropping and dew claw removal was painful for the little 3 day old poodle pups. For what its worth, he says the tail cropping is very painful and the little guys scream their heads off. However, it is quick. He has started using lidocane and an oral pain killer and that helps. Interestingly, he does not think that the dew claw removal is as painful. He also said that the tail cropping is much more painful if done on an older dog. He would refuse to do it on an older dog (unless there were some medical reason for it), but is comfortable doing the procedure on pups that are only a few days old. So that's one opinion from a vet who does this procedure.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am glad your vet feels this way, but have never had a puppy scream its head off while it is being done. The squeak for sure, but they would be squeaking anyway just being away from their Mom.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Yeah I wouldn't remove dewclaws or tails on an older dog, even as much as I hate dewclaws. I've seen dogs who have had dew surgery as adults and it makes me sad to see their bandages wrapped around their wrists, they look like little emo dogs.


----------

