# 4 month old Spoo acting very stubborn!



## Crewsinn (Jun 25, 2012)

My brother (he's 19) got a standard poodle a little over 2 months ago. He is about 4-5 months old now and for some reason is being extremely stubborn when it comes to training. If I hold a treat and ask him to "sit" he jumps on me several times before actually sitting. He also doesn't respond when we call his name (Cain) when doing something bad! Its almost as though he doesn't even know his name, lol. Overall he is very disobedient and refuses to respond to "NO". He's a very sweet dog and we love him, but he is proving to be extremely difficult to train. He's about the same size as my 1yr old Boxador (boxer/lab mix) and they spend hours upon hours playing. He learned to fetch by watching her do it. He had very little problems when it came to potty training and loves sleeping in bed and is completely quiet and docile during bed time. That's why I assume he is just being stubborn when it comes to training, since he's obviously smart!

We have a kiddie pool in the back yard for him to hang out in since he LOVES water, and my brother takes him out swimming to our friends river house and he absolutely loves it. I recommended that my brother take him to petsmart training classes, but he starts college in two weeks and doesn't exactly have the funds. 

I know I could google this and find pages upon pages of info, but I think asking other poodle owners directly is best. Any tips/advice for training would be much appreciated!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Is it possible that you are used to your older dog knowing the cues (Sit, No, come when your name is called, etc), and are inadvertently assuming the poodle pup also knows them, although he has not actually been taught what they mean? It sounds as if he has learned that all the weird noises peole make have no real connection with him and what he wants to do - not stubborn, just a happy, bright puppy busy exploring his world and discovering what makes it work.

I would try two things - firstly, read up on clicker training (Karen Pryor Clickertraining | The Leader in Positive Reinforcement Training and many other sites and videos), then buy a clicker and start training him with it, letting him work out what he needs to do to earn the reward, and secondly, make sure he is getting lots and lots of exercise out having happy meetings with dogs, people and everything else in the world. Both practically free, and both invaluable for raising a puppy into a well balanced, easy to live with adult dog!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Short version:


*Stop blaming the puppy. This is 100% human error.* Please read the link fjm posted above. I think a puppy class would be good for you, but please use clicker training. You will learn A LOT.

Don't hold the treat. Have treats nearby but not in your hand. Holding the treat is causing the jumping

Ignore jumping. By saying "No" (and he has no clue what that means!!), all you did was resspnd to his behavior and REWARD it with your attention. Put puppy on a leash and step on it. This prevents jumping (the habit you trained him!) and keeps you from punishing him. 

Stop talking, you are teaching him to ignore your voices. Cue words lose all their meaning when they are repeated and when they are used BEFORE you have taught the dog what to dog.

Punishing a puppy for your own failure is abuse, IMO. Not having money for a puppy training class is not an excuse to mistreat a puppy. Please take "No" out of your vocabulary for this puppy and use the link fjm posted to learn how to train him with respect. 

(Please note that I am not opposed to using correction in training when it is appropriate. I am not stating a personal opposition to correction in training. I am telling you that it is completely 100% innappropriate for teaching a baby puppy basic obedience commands.)


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Crewsinn said:


> I recommended that my brother take him to petsmart training classes, but he starts college in two weeks and doesn't exactly have the funds.


Who will be taking care of this puppy when your brother starts college?


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## Crewsinn (Jun 25, 2012)

fjm said:


> Is it possible that you are used to your older dog knowing the cues (Sit, No, come when your name is called, etc), and are inadvertently assuming the poodle pup also knows them, although he has not actually been taught what they mean? It sounds as if he has learned that all the weird noises peole make have no real connection with him and what he wants to do - not stubborn, just a happy, bright puppy busy exploring his world and discovering what makes it work.


I hadn't thought of that! You are right, I probably am assuming that he knows more than he actually does. He is the same size as my boxador and it is hard to remember that he is only still a puppy due to him being so big! Thank you very much for the link to the clicker training, I am certainly going to look into that as soon as I am done responding.




tortoise said:


> Short version:
> 
> *Stop blaming the puppy. This is 100% human error.* Please read the link fjm posted above. I think a puppy class would be good for you, but please use clicker training. You will learn A LOT.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the tips. Holding the treat is definitely a mistake on my part! I hadn't realized that. I will stop using "No" until he has grasped the meaning of it. I thought about taking him myself to the training classes, but after reading the info on it I saw that it creates bonding between the pet and owner, so I think my brother is best to do that. It is my brothers first dog and bonding is important. If he still doesn't have the means to take him to training class next month I will pay for it. 



PaddleAddict said:


> Who will be taking care of this puppy when your brother starts college?


My father and I will be taking care of him. My brother and I both attend college, but I take online courses and am enrolled in work/study, which only requires working 15 hours a week. I will have plenty of time to take care of him, and my dad has a home office so he is here most of the time.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Ideally, everyone who trains the puppy should all go to the class. Otherwise it is hard to get everyone "on the same page" and inconsistency between people can cause problems. 

If you are training his puppy, it will bond to you. Unavoidable.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

You have gotten some great advice.  I just want to reinforce that you should NOT correct a puppy when he doesn't do what you want. In fact, I correct my puppies hardly at all. (only if they bite me out of irritation...then they get a correction. I live with children, they MUST understand that biting is absolutely not allowed EVER. Mouthing in play is something we work on gradually.) I don't start corrections until they are much older, 7-8 months or older and only when I'm 100% certain they know exactly what I want them to do. At 4-5 months, your pup has had hardly any time to learn much of anything other than basic stuff like his name, house training, basic cues such as sit, etc. And even on those things you must allow room for mistakes. With puppies, making training fun is a must. That means lots of treats and play time. And short sessions, lots of them! Their attention span is pretty short. Raven's is about 5 seconds long. I can tell him to do something and he will start to do it, then a leaf will blow across the yard or a toy catches his eye and he's off! He's getting better with repetition and the knowledge that I have yummy treats most of the time.  

Here's another rule that applies to all ages: don't try to tell your dog what NOT to do. Rather, teach him what TO do. Dogs get that a whole lot better. So if you don't want him to jump on you when you come home, teach him to either sit in front of you for pets OR if he's too excited to sit still teach him to go get a toy and play with you. Make sense?

Also, if your brother is leaving for college soon, don't expect the pup to bond with him...he will end up bonding to you. Even if he bonds with your brother between now and then, chances are he will switch over to you, especially if you do a lot of his training. Poodles need to bond to a person and they do so quickly. I had a mini poodle for six weeks one time before I had Trev and in that short time he had bonded extremely tightly to me. He got over it when I had to return him, but boy it sure was difficult to get him to leave me!


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## Crewsinn (Jun 25, 2012)

tortoise said:


> Ideally, everyone who trains the puppy should all go to the class. Otherwise it is hard to get everyone "on the same page" and inconsistency between people can cause problems.
> 
> If you are training his puppy, it will bond to you. Unavoidable.


I called petsmart and scheduled the 6 wk long puppy training course, it starts next Thursday! My brother has agreed to take him. He saw how easily I trained my dog and assumes it'd be just as easy to train his, but I talked some sense in to him. Prior to his adopting Cain I explained that he would be very high maintenance, but I don't think he quite understood me, lol. Luckily he has an animal-loving sister to give guidance! Plus I've found a great groomer here and help take him to the appointments. I think after the training class things will go a lot smoother. 
Thank you very much for your input!


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## Crewsinn (Jun 25, 2012)

mom24doggies said:


> Here's another rule that applies to all ages: don't try to tell your dog what NOT to do. Rather, teach him what TO do. Dogs get that a whole lot better. So if you don't want him to jump on you when you come home, teach him to either sit in front of you for pets OR if he's too excited to sit still teach him to go get a toy and play with you. Make sense?
> 
> Also, if your brother is leaving for college soon, don't expect the pup to bond with him...he will end up bonding to you. Even if he bonds with your brother between now and then, chances are he will switch over to you, especially if you do a lot of his training. Poodles need to bond to a person and they do so quickly. I had a mini poodle for six weeks one time before I had Trev and in that short time he had bonded extremely tightly to me. He got over it when I had to return him, but boy it sure was difficult to get him to leave me!


I snipped part of your comment just in case this turns out to be long!

Sorry for not clarifying, but the college he is going to is nearby, so he'll still live at home. It's a Technical college so he'll be there roughly 8am-5pm several days a week. He'll have evenings and weekends to bond! I am anxious to see his training progress!


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