# Switching foods opinions.



## Rowdysmom (Jun 19, 2012)

My kids are such picky eaters. We have Rowdy (6mo Moyen) and Zoey 9lb Italian Greyhound, so I need to feed them both the same foods. Zoey can't tolerate all protein foods. 

Right now I am feeding a mixture of Fromm puppy and Lotus puppy. Of course at first they loved the fromm and quicky seemed to become bored with it. I tried a sample of the Lotus and they went crazy for it, so I bought some and mixed it with their Fromm. Now the only way I seem to get them to eat is put a little chicken brooth over it. I have been limiting treats and snacks from the table.

I have been considering cooking for them. Not going raw, I do not believe my IG's tummy could handle that. 

What are your thoughts about their diet and idea of cooking? For those that do cook what are your recipes? 

Thank you all in advance!


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

I had a fussy wheaten terrier and prepared meatloafs for him. Those were:

1 lb ground lamb 
1 lb ground turkey
1 sm. can tomato sauce (all natural, no salt added)
1/4 C ketchup (all natural, no sugar or salt added)
2 C. brown rice
5 Eggs (lightly beaten)
Sliced Carrots (I use frozen . a small bag that I pre-steam in the microwave)
4 C. Fromm or other quality dry kibble food
5 teasp. Flaxseed oil

Mix all together and fill 3 meatloaf pans. 

Bake @ 375 for 1 hr 15 min.

Each meatloaf yielded 5 servings (I feed 2X a day so a meatloaf lasted 2-1/2 days)

My Wheaten was 35 lbs and very active.


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## Rowdysmom (Jun 19, 2012)

Did you pre-cook the rice?


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

Yes, I precooked the rice. I get the minute boil in bag which takes 10 minutes only. Reviewed this with my vet. His only comment was that you might wish to add a puppy multi-vitamin. Otherwise, the meal was nutritious and well balanced.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

marcoislandmom said:


> i had a fussy wheaten terrier and prepared meatloafs for him. Those were:
> 
> 1 lb ground lamb
> 1 lb ground turkey
> ...


*this is not safe for a puppy!*


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Rowdysmom said:


> We have Rowdy (6mo Moyen) and Zoey 9lb Italian Greyhound, so I need to feed them both the same foods.


Your dogs are not in the same life stage and should not be eating the same food. Their nutritional needs are not the same.

If you feed the same food, one of your dogs will have nutritional deficiencies or excesses. (Excesses are just as damaging as deficiencies!).

It takes 30 seconds to scoop a second dish of food. Just do it.


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

Tortoise, are you a vet? What is unsafe for puppies in my fussy wheaten meatloaf? Please tell me what is lacking from this food? I am all ears. 

Do the analysis and then look a quality puppy food... the meat content is 40%, brown rice is a common puppy ingredient as is pumpkin and carrots. Just because this food does not come from a bag or can does not mean it is unsafe. 

Thank you for telling me specifically what is wrong with this meal since I fed it very successfully for 15 years to AKC champion wheaten terriers and it was published in the wheaten terrier club of america newsletter as an alternative diet.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Marcoislandmom said:


> Tortoise, are you a vet? What is unsafe for puppies in my fussy wheaten meatloaf? Please tell me what is lacking from this food? I am all ears.
> 
> Do the analysis and then look a quality puppy food... the meat content is 40%, brown rice is a common puppy ingredient as is pumpkin and carrots. Just because this food does not come from a bag or can does not mean it is unsafe.
> 
> Thank you for telling me specifically what is wrong with this meal since I fed it very successfully for 15 years to AKC champion wheaten terriers and it was published in the wheaten terrier club of america newsletter as an alternative diet.


It is deficient in calcium.

I'm not a vet. I'm a weight coach. My fiance is a vet - and I have access to his professional library. I've read all the nutrition textbooks. Edited to add: I was in college for pre-veterinary. I withdrew after I spent enough time with my fiance to figure out that I don't want to be a vet. 

You can calculate the correct amount of calcium supplement for your "meatloaf" with Pearson's square.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I scanned this out of Small Animal Clinical Nutition 3rd Edition for you. You need to choose the calcium supplement you want to use and then determine the percent of that supplement that is calcium. You need to know how much calcium is in the food. You'd have to run all your ingredients through USDA Nutrient Database (free, online) to get calcium content of your meatloaf before supplementing. Then it's this calculation:


Pearson's Square by tortoise11, on Flickr

After that, you should check calcium phosphorus balance (it should be fine) and compare it to AAFCO or CVMA feeding protocols.


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

Thank you Tortoise for this. That explains why the vet had recommended a multivitamin. I looked back and the ones I gave had calcium, though maybe not enough for puppies. My Wheaties also ate cottage cheese also however that, honestly, was an afterthought since I eat cottage cheese every morning for my osteoporosis anyway and they just joined me in indulging. 

For a really fussy eater, the meatloafs worked exceptionally well since I could control fat content and protein content while providing something they would consistently eat.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I have to admit, my mixed-breed has had constant loose stools (and lots of vet visits without success), I have slowly tried different foods. I am now feeding him something very very similar to that recipe, and I use a food processor. The eggs include the shell, so I thought that would help with calcium.
He also eats about 1T of yogurt a day, and he gets sardines occasionally, and a fish oil supplement when not getting sardines

This is the only food I have tried for him that has solved the gastric issues.

It doesn't look too bad as a dog food to me.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Marcoislandmom said:


> Thank you Tortoise for this. That explains why the vet had recommended a multivitamin. I looked back and the ones I gave had calcium, though maybe not enough for puppies. My Wheaties also ate cottage cheese also however that, honestly, was an afterthought since I eat cottage cheese every morning for my osteoporosis anyway and they just joined me in indulging.
> 
> For a really fussy eater, the meatloafs worked exceptionally well since I could control fat content and protein content while providing something they would consistently eat.


For an adult, it would not be necessary to do the math with a dog multivitamin. Adult dogs excrete much of excess calcium. However, puppies cannot excrete excess calcium. Excessive calcium for a puppy causes cause bone deformity.

We think a lot about vitamins, and often forget minerals. The macrominerals are a problem with most homemade diets. The calcium/phosphorus balance is important.

About 7 years ago, I got curious and put my dog on a home made diet. Not a proper raw diet, but a typical google-found homemade dog food. In a couple weeks, her gums were almost white and the flaps of her ears were blue. I discontinued my "experiment" and thankfully after a couple weeks of proper dog food she was healthy. This experience changed how I approach home made and raw diets. I used to throw something together and convince myself it was good. Now I do the math and read AVMA journals for the latest nutrition information.

I hate math. But I love my dog more than I hate math.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Ladywolfe said:


> I have to admit, my mixed-breed has had constant loose stools (and lots of vet visits without success), I have slowly tried different foods. I am now feeding him something very very similar to that recipe, and I use a food processor. The eggs include the shell, so I thought that would help with calcium.
> He also eats about 1T of yogurt a day, and he gets sardines occasionally, and a fish oil supplement when not getting sardines
> 
> This is the only food I have tried for him that has solved the gastric issues.
> ...


Eggshell is often touted as the solution for no-bone diets. I believed it too. Until I found out how much calcium is in an egg shell. It is much less than I thought and it would not have been possible to feed my dog enough egg shells to provide enough calcium.

Adult dogs need 0.6% DM of their diet to be calcium. Don't forget to calculate dry matter (DM) if you're number crunching. Also be sure you are using elemental calcium in your calculation. If you do not you will be off by up to 40%!

Example: A dog eating 1 pound of kibble that is 10% moisture is getting 24grams of calcium. A large eggshell provides 2.5 grams of calcium.

The eggshell is clearly not enough calcium. It would take 10 per day to meet the dog's calcium requirements! Who can feed their dog 10 egg shells every day? Will the dog eat 10 egg shells every day?


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