# Sticky  Buying a puppy safely - the basics



## Chagall's mom

Bravo, *fjm!*! I think this thread should be made a "sticky," or assigned reading. Thanks for doing such a wonderful "public service" for man, woman and poodles alike! Since "you can't unknow what you know," _everyone_ can now go forward with their eyes wide open.


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## peppersb

FJM -- This is a fabulous summary. Thanks so much! 

Admin: Can make this into a sticky so that it will be easily available to everyone in the future?


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## Mariah

This is so great, because not only does it help future puppy parents on this forum, but if anyone googles how to buy the right poodle puppy (or any puppy!), hopefully this will show up. Thanks so much for this! Sticky worthy definitely. 


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## peppersb

*Thanks to our moderator!*

Thanks to Plumcrazy aka Barb for making this a sticky, and for doing it so quickly (within about an hour after the initial post). What a great forum!

I hope that this sticky will direct at least a few puppy buyers away from pet stores, puppy mills, blind internet sales, and impulse purchases. Thanks again to FJM for an excellent summary of basic guidelines.


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## fjm

Thanks Plum!


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## CT Girl

Fantastic post, I am so glad it has been made a sticky.


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## AngelsMommy

I agree this is a great sticky! 

As to taking a friend or relative,* please* make sure they are one that you *WILL* listen to!!! 

My mom was asked by a friend to not let her get a puppy. She was just supposed to look, she was going with her mom to get a dog. Well the upshot was that the friend would not listen, she had fallen in love and had to have that dog! 

It ended up being very, very, ill and had to have a lot of vet care. Nursing night and day for several weeks. During that time, my mom had to care for the pup. Because her friend had to leave town and the pup could not be brought along. They went on vacation... 

I was part of caring for the pup. Lesson learned at a very young age.


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## PaddleAddict

Wonderful post FJM! 

Might I add, a red flag is breeders offering "papers" from questionable "registries" (which have few if any regulations and will register any puppy or dog for a fee, even mixed breeds and cross-bred designer dogs):

CKC (Continental Kennel Club, not to be confused with Canadian Kennel Club)
APRI (American Pet Registry Inc)
ACA (American Canine Registry) 
And so on (there are many, many more)


Legit all-breed registries include:

American Kennel Club (AKC)
United Kennel Club (UKC)
Canadian Kennel Club (CKC)
The Kennel Club (UK) 

There are many other legit national kennel clubs in countries throughout the world.


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## fjm

In the UK the one to watch for is the UK Dog Lovers' Registry - fancy documents that mean very little, and that do not provide even the minimal protection for breeding dogs given by Kennel Club registration.


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## Bobby Bear

A responsible breeder should also ask you questions.I had to provide a vets reference,have a home check,and had a lengthy chat to the breeder about my lifestyle.A good breeder does not breed for money but to improve the breed.They do not cross breed ,and have many litters.They provide lifelong support and care about their dogs.
I waited 2 years for my last dog.


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## lily cd re

There are so many great comments here in addition to fjm's original post. I would add that if we really want to see puppy mills go extinct and stop backyard breeding (including designer dog breeders for those of us that don't go in for them) then *we have to make sure that there is absolutely no market for those puppies* or for the businesses that are part of that system. People should stay away from the retail outlets that are the consumer end for the puppy mill breeders. I won't even buy food or toys in places selling puppies that have any chance of being from mills.


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## Abbe gails Mom

Yes, I think this is great to put here on the PF. However you must understand that there so very many, many people that do not go to a breeder because of the money. ( lets just put it out here , like it or not) you are never going to stop the cheep , what you all call the back yard breeder, puppy mill, what ever.People know where to go to get a cheep puppy for $250.00 to $700.00, and thats what most people care about, that and nothing more.There not going to show the puppy , they just wont cheep, and if they don't like it after a while they can dump it, and if it's not killed, or picked up by some one to be used to blood a fighting dog. then it might go to a shelter to ( i hope) find a new home, ( very few do )are the shelter puts them down, and till you get the LAWS changed, your blowing smoke. There many, many poodles killed every day, people are running out of homes to put the animals in.So, if you care, think about how you can help to put an end to all the homeless pets.Get Laws changed, until you hit people where they live(money) your still blowing smoke.


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## Poodlelvr

The breeder of my two had as many questions for me as I had for her. Almost her first words for me were tell me about yourself. At the time I had lost a three year old mimi to auto immunine hemolytic anemia. I went to see her puppies, and spent an hour or more chatting with her, sitting on the floor with puppies, and asking her it she would let me have the little male. I returned two weeks later to pick him up. He is now 8 years old, but I know she would take him back in a heart beat if I could not keep him. A good breeder truly cares about the puppies for all of their lives. When you find one, they are a treasure.


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## lily cd re

I agree that a really good breeder want to know where there puppies are going and will support you throughout the dog's life. I am currently starting to look for a breeder for the next spoo pup (for spring 2014) and am fully prepared to talk about my current dogs, my fenced yard, give references, etc. Unfortunately Lily's breeder is no longer active, thus my search begins. 

For any of us who has cats the same is true for responsible breeders. For my Maine **** girls (miss them still) I had an interview when I met the breeders at a show, then essentially had an audition when I went to their home to see the kittens. I must have passed the audition part with flying colors because when i told the breeder I wanted the two sisters that I ended up with because of their relationship with each other, she said normally she never sells two kittens at once to the same person because she wants them to bond with their owner, but that since I had such a good read on these two girls (there were a total of nine kittens in two litters) that they would both come home with me. Jackie lived to 14 and Alex to 16. They were healthy until close to the end of their lives and the only vet bill other than for routing care were for a freaky accident (one for each girl) that happened inside the house.

It is unfortunate that so many people don't realize that by going cheap at the beginning they are often giving themselves terrible hidden costs later on. Huge vet bills, the possible early death of the puppy (or kitten) and the behavioral issues that puppy mill puppies are often burdened by that result in rehoming or euthanasia need to be better understood by the public. Couple all of those things to the stress and heartache that go along with them and I think more people would opt for going to responsible breeders. If this happens then maybe more people will be willing to spend up from for the greater likelihood of a long, happy, healthy life with their dog (or cat). When we go to the vet, Lily and Peeves are like rock stars. They are polite in the waiting room even when it is crowded and they always pass their check ups with flying colors. Some of their great status is the fruits of our hard work, but some of it was born into them at their breeders. 

Abbe gails Mom I hear your passion about trying to effect change, but I don't think we can legislate good decision making here (or in anything for that matter). There are already many laws that are easily flaunted and some of which hurt responsible small kennels. People make good decisions when they have the needed information to do so. Education is our ally here. Every time one of us gets the comment/question "oh your dog is so lovely and well behaved, where did you get him/her?" we have a teachable moment. Don't preach but try to get fjm's original points across and hopefully the tide will turn. One of the reasons I go to our local pet expos and other events for charities is to show what a well bred, well mannered dog actually looks like and to hope that I can convince at least one person to avoid asking "how much is that doggie in the window?"...you know, the one with the waggly tail.


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## fjm

Yet another desperately sad tale of a young couple who let themselves be persuaded by a puppy dealer that all was well ... dudleystail | A cautionary tale


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## Lene

What a sad story... I hope people will listen, and not buy from backyard breeders, puppymills and petshops...


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## MaryLynn

I shared that blog to my facebook.

A lot of my friends have bought puppy mill/BYB puppies recently (the holidays are always the worst time for it...), and I hope that they see this.


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## Chagall's mom

_Ugh!_ I wish that could be the last tragic puppy mill/puppy farm story I will ever hear, sadly I know it won't be. But sharing it may help change things for other pups in peril. The more people who get to read about such devastating and _preventable_ experiences, the better the chances of things changing. I will hold onto that hope. Poor little Dudley, and his devastated owners!


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## lily cd re

This is a terrible story, but an important one to share and spread the word about. The more people see for real the horrible consequences of supporting puppy mills the greater the chances that we can stop the abuse they inflict on the animals the control and produce, and by extension, the people who want to love sad little guys like Dudley.

I find it really sad and a poor comment on the value we place on things that many people are more willing to do tons of research to buy the perfect car or tv (which they will probably sell or throw away when the next hot item comes out), and to spend more money on a cell phone than they are in bringing a puppy or a kitten into their lives with the expectation of having it in their lives for ten or more years. But maybe I am being foolish in thinking that some people don't also view their animals as disposable?!


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## Poodlemama99

When we got Kensi my breeder went through the whole litany of taking care of tiny dog, including checking what supplies, food, etc. we brought to bring her home with and explained hypoglycemia instructions even though we had gotten Penelope from her the year before. She is very careful and thorough when sending her babies to their new homes. 


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## Lena

*Thanks*

Yes, I just got a puppy 1.5 months ago. He is supposed to be a standard but looks like he will have very short legs. He is 15.5 weeks now. The reason we got him was the color, I was set on a brown one. And the breeder was local, so i could go see the pups and Mom. They looked great and the minute I saw the puppy I was hooked, but now... 

We love him dearly, but I doubt he will look the way I hoped. I dreamed of a 25-27 inch beautiful poodle. The dam was 22 inch and Dad 26", so I thought I will get my dream. I can still hope he will grow into his frame, but he will probably be very small for a standard. He is only 14.5 lb at almost 16 weeks and looks longer than taller a bit. Color is nice though, not pure brown bit a silvery-brown.


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## itzfoxfire58

I remember in 1998, my then college daughter wanted a toy poodle and I knew better than to buy a pup from the mall, but I didn't think a puppy mill could be someones home (BYB) well we went to look at the puppies and the first thing I notice was that although the puppies were cute and running around, that she also had some other puppies that were toy poodles. My daughter had one that she really wanted she was really cute and didn't want the other puppies to play with my daughter, then when I picked the puppy up I saw a few fleas running across her. I told the breeder that this puppy had fleas and she said that she was having problems with fleas, but she would give her a bath. I told my daughter lets go, but she begged and pleaded and said mom you know how to take care of dogs, she will be okay, I still said I don't know, but she ended up getting the puppy anyway. 

Well after having her for a year and half, she started smelling a little funny, now this was a puppy that from the start she was getting a bath every two weeks, getting her nails painted and everything. Foxxy was adorable, but she had skin issues, I spent almost $3,000.00 over the next 3 years trying to get the skin disease taking care of, she never made it to her fifth birthday. On the day that she past I told my daughter I will never go against my better judgement.

P.S. Foxxy that she was human.


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## Abbe gails Mom

Thats so heart breaking, so very sorry, however that helpless little thing,sweet Foxxy, because of you and your family, got a loving home, and given the best for the little time that she was here, and that is a good thing, all of you gave her the very best.


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## itzfoxfire58

Abbe gails Mom said:


> Thats so heart breaking, so very sorry, however that helpless little thing,sweet Foxxy, because of you and your family, got a loving home, and given the best for the little time that she was here, and that is a good thing, all of you gave her the very best.


She was very special and my daughter and I always talk about the funny things she did, I recall one time when were at home, we couldn't find her she was about a 1 year and one-half, we were calling her name looking under the bed and everything, then I said to my kids did she go out the door when you guys were running to the ice cream truck, we ran to the front door and opened it and there she was wiggling that little tail of her's and she looking at us like did you guys eat all the ice cream. LOL


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## Rhett'smom

Thank you for this great post!!! All who are interested in buying any puppy should read this. 


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## C Sharp

I am reading this wonderfully written, informative piece after just having registered on Poodle Forum today. It may be just "the basics" to some, however, it is not to me. 

Please allow me speak from experience; these “basic” words of advice can save you, your family and a pet from much sadness and grief. 

I know, because I did this *** backwards. I made the HUGE mistake of rushing into getting a puppy when I lost my 6 year old male standard poodle to stomach cancer this past January. 

I rushed into the sale and bought our poodle from a breeder with a very fancy website - lots of testimonials and pictures... 

The breeder is in Little Rock Arkansas and claimed he could deliver the dog to Florida for us because he had a trip planned that would take him down this way. We "met" him at a gas station, he "forgot" our dog's papers, "wasn't sure" which shots he needed and we paid $2,300.00 for this standard poodle.

We just brought our dear boy to our vet and found out he is going blind. Of course we are in shock, heartbroken, and feeling pretty stupid after reading this post. My husband and I are not kids.

Had I read your post none of this would have ever happened to any of us. I pray your words reach someone else in time, and I thank you for these very real words of wisdom.

C Sharp
Gainesville, Fl.


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## julietcr1

I am sorry for you but at the same time I worry about the puppy, will you keep him?


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## C Sharp

Oh yes!! 
We have a visit scheduled Tuesday with the top Opthamologist in the southeast for a consult, complete blood-work and possible surgery. If surgery is not an option, we will go on with life as normal! Everyone will adapt.
(We do not have children, our dogs are our lives, and we are crazy about them!!)
Thank you for asking...


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## C Sharp

Here is a photo of our precious Dillon.

Love seeing your puppies in the snow!


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## dcail

Your Dillon is very lucky to have you both as owners. Good luck with the Ophthalmologist do keep us posted here on results.


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## julietcr1

You made a mistake but at the same time you probably save Dillion's life, he is in good hands now, thank you for taking care of him, he is a beautiful and happy dog now.


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## C Sharp

After reading your sweet note, I suddenly saw things quite differently. I felt joyful, and full of hope. Dogs pick up on every emotion - Dillon jumped on the sofa and started playing with Idgie and Griff the lab ran for his food bowl!!! You brought us all into joyful mode - it is wonderful to find such dear, insightful and kind people such as you - we thank you with all our hearts, canine and human alike...

We will post with updates on Dillon's prognosis and look forward to reading lots of posts, learning as much as we can, meeting wonderful people and seeing lots of happy dogs!!!


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## Sweetp

Heartbreaking! Dillon is a beautiful boy. Did your vet tell you what was happening to cause him to go blind?


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## lily cd re

You sound like wonderful people for Dillon. Since you don't have kids in the house leaving things under foot I am sure you will be able to adjust things in your home to give him a good life even if the opthalmologist can't give an optimistic prognosis. Do keep us updated.


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## 12489

I will say that I understand that too a point. I am concerned about finding a great breeder, but I'm not wealthy either and since I'm single and on a students income coming up with something more than $1200 for a healthy for a pet quality spoo is a bit of a reach. Especially when there are other puppy expenses so close together. I hate to be gosh about price but I have a price point being disable and a student and what I can afford. I got lucky with my Bichon when I got her 12 years ago. She was an impulse buy. Found out I was losing a pregnancy and in a moment a insanity found an ad in the paper. Quick 30 30 minute car ride, run inside the vet kama grab the check for $700, handed her send check she had me her AKC papers and the puppy and I went home two days later ended up in the hospital but I still have my baby Gracie so I think I got my money's worth in the end but I guess I got really lucky unlike a lot of people who end up with an impulse buy puppy.

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## 12489

The one thing that is so amazing about dogs is how they learn to adapt. I hope that you find the best for your boy, but that kind of love he will always see you. 

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## C Sharp

Aren't our dogs amazing? They seem to have a 6th sense about so much! Thank you so very much for your words of encouragement - our house is happy and the dogs are happy and we have all of you dear people to thank for it. Whenever life seems tough, the things that we have to be thankful for far outweigh everything else. It's wonderful that you have your Gracie to love. I have loved the Bichon forever -  Adorable!!!!


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## C Sharp

Catherine - If I ever see a CUTER picture of a dog in my entire life than Lily, I will write to let you know, but I don't think so. AAAWWWWW!!!!!!! Pink bows, pink, every girl's favorite, eyes that light up the world and that dear tongue!!!! She made my day!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you so much for taking the time to write and for your kind words. We will make sure Dillon gets the surgery. We're focused on that for now. Will be sure to post news this week. Take good care!!


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## Rhett'smom

Poodle prayers and hugs for you and your family during these trying times. May you have good news and lots of joy no matter what the outcome is. Welcome to the group


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## lily cd re

C sharp, thanks so much. Lily is an amazing girl and I am sure that you will make for Dillon a wonderful life no matter what. He is a nice looking boy, very happy. Poodles are the best.


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## Mercury

Chagall's mom said:


> Bravo, *fjm!*! I think this thread should be made a "sticky," or assigned reading. Thanks for doing such a wonderful "public service" for man, woman and poodles alike! Since "you can't unknow what you know," _everyone_ can now go forward with their eyes wide open.


Great stuff, I was fortunate that I found the right breeder that had my pups best interest in mind.


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## rainbowpoodle

Very good information


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## AleKaiRowdie

This is always the place where I get discouraged-puppy buying. It takes so much research these days! I have been so very fortunate when it comes to my poodles-I found wonderful people with the dogs best interests at the forefront. I don't breed dogs. I do know a little something about genetics-and I look at the husbandry closely. Always such a risk when you are making such an investment-you want the healthiest dog you can get. Who wants to have to take their best friend to the dr once a month?


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## Mfmst

How to tell a good breeder website from a bad one | Ruffly Speaking PF member Ellis suggested this excellent link.


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## Pella

SUCH a great thread! I read the whole thing. As someone in the process of looking for a puppy / a good breeder, I still have a few questions that I am wondering if others can answer. 

Also I think it's good to point out to people that breeders shouldn't have 'excuses.' I've emailed at least ten breeders over the past few months and you would be amazed how many say they do ALL genetic testing on their website and then it just happens the father of their current litter...his genetic testing link is broken. Or missing. Or they post all good genetic results on their website but if you click through to the OFA website, only a few results show and most are hidden. I CANNOT BELIEVE how often breeders do this! I am so heartbroken for the puppies! One recently told me "oh I trusted my friend so I went ahead and did the breeding. I should have known I will never see those papers now." 

(You should be able to look up both parents by CHIC# or registered name here: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals)

Now, for my questions; could anyone post a photo (with names blacked out as necessary) of genetic testing so people know what to look for in the results? Sometimes I see 'good', sometimes I see 'normal'. Are both ok? Sometimes I see 12, 13, or 14 as a result in one of the tests. I have no idea which range of numbers indicates good things. What does a hip result of 'fair' mean? Should the dog not be bred if hips are only fair?

I am also wondering what acceptable ages are for Poodles to be bred? When I hear the dam is 2 and a half and the sire is 2, should I be worried? How old is too old? 

I've heard of the Poodle Health Registry (Poodle Health Registry) How often do breeders actually use this? 

How long should puppies stay with their mom? Is 8 weeks enough? I am guessing 9 is preferable. 

I know there is so much that is up to each individual to determine for themselves, like size, which variety of Poodle to get, color, gender, temperament etc. But I am also guessing there are some basic practices around breeding that still haven't been discussed here. I would love to hear more about them, as I think it's very good information for any prospective puppy buyers to have.


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## lily cd re

I can't speak to the numbers for the tests, but I would say fair probably isn't good enough to me. Normal would be acceptable for hips but good or excellent would be what I would distinctly look for since any pup I get will be a performance dog.

Ian Dunbar actually advocates for mating males when they are much older (at least 5 years) and without AI. He thinks that waiting will allow potential temperament issues as well as hidden genetic issues to present themselves.

To a great extent I think the age at which the puppy separates from the litter is somewhat variety related. I know many tpoo breeders hold their puppies longer than spoo breeders. Lily came to us when she was 7 weeks old. Her litter was large so she had had lots of pup to pup socialization by that age and also had seen a lot of people as her breeder's family included young children (friends visiting) and also there had been many visitors to see the puppies from about when they were five weeks old. Again, Ian Dunbar advocates for puppies to go to their forever homes at 7 weeks, unless the breeders are doing wildly good socialization to many kinds of people.


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## peppersb

Pella said:


> SUCH a great thread!
> ...
> (You should be able to look up both parents by CHIC# or registered name here: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals)
> 
> Now, for my questions; could anyone post a photo (with names blacked out as necessary) of genetic testing so people know what to look for in the results? Sometimes I see 'good', sometimes I see 'normal'. Are both ok? Sometimes I see 12, 13, or 14 as a result in one of the tests. I have no idea which range of numbers indicates good things. What does a hip result of 'fair' mean? Should the dog not be bred if hips are only fair?
> ...
> 
> I've heard of the Poodle Health Registry (Poodle Health Registry) How often do breeders actually use this?
> 
> How long should puppies stay with their mom? Is 8 weeks enough? I am guessing 9 is preferable.
> 
> I know there is so much that is up to each individual to determine for themselves, like size, which variety of Poodle to get, color, gender, temperament etc. But I am also guessing there are some basic practices around breeding that still haven't been discussed here. I would love to hear more about them, as I think it's very good information for any prospective puppy buyers to have.


Hi Pella -- In answer to the above questions ...

'Good' and 'normal' are both ok. For the eye exam 12, 13, or 14 indicates the year that the test was done (annual eye tests are recommended for breeding poodles). A hip result of 'fair' is the lowest passing grade, but it is passing. In choosing whether or not to breed a dog, a breeder takes a lot of things into account. Of course anyone would prefer to have good or excellent hips, but you need to balance the fair hips against all of the other characteristics of the dog. Also, the inheritance of hip dysplasia is polygenic, meaning that more than one gene is involved. In managing a polygenic condition, it is important to look at the hips of other close relatives. So a dog with fair hips who has close relatives with good or excellent hips is a better bet than a dog with fair hips with close relatives that are dysplastic. Also, you should look at the proposed mate of a dog with fair hips. Many breeders will breed fair to good or excellent, but not fair to fair. 

If test results are listed on OFA, you really don't need to look at the original certificates. OFA does that for you. Here is an example of testing as reported on the OFA site (it is my spoo, Cammie): Orthopedic Foundation for Animals 

Breeders definitely use PHRdatabase. But it is well known that diseases are under-reported, so you have to take that into account. The better breeders have a lot of personal knowledge of the dogs that they are breeding that may not be on any public web site. 

Cammie had a litter of standard poodles about 6 months ago. On the advice of my mentor, we kept the puppies for 9 weeks. Many breeders let them go at 8 weeks. It was interesting to see that in the final week with us, the puppies seemed to begin to separate a little more. For example, I would often see a puppy or two sleeping by themselves rather than on top of each other. I think keeping them an extra week is a good idea, especially for puppies that are going to single-dog families. 

Another thing that I think is very important is the way the momma dog is cared for. Cammie had the luxury of raising her pups in her own home, a place where she felt loved and secure. It was amazing to see how she instinctively knew how to take care of her babies. She got plenty of support, including emotional support, the freedom to rest away from the pups when she wanted to, and plenty of fabulous nutrition (at the height of her nursing, she was eating 3 pound of meat a day). Breeders who are making puppies for a living cannot possibly give this level of support, and momma dogs are often kept in kennels and fed cheap kibble. I recently heard of one breeder who keeps the momma dog in such a small enclosure with her pups that she has no opportunity to get away from them for a rest. That's sad for the momma and a sad momma can't be good for the puppies. So I strongly recommend that any puppy buyer visit the breeder BEFORE making a decision. Meet the momma dog. Does she look happy? (The two saddest poodles that I ever saw in my life were breeder's dogs.) Is her temperament and looks what you would want for your dog? Where does she live? Kennel or comfortable home? Where will she have her puppies? A happy and secure momma dog who has lots of support from the breeder will raise a better puppy than a stressed, confined kennel momma. My opinion for what it is worth.


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## Pella

Thanks peppersb for that helpful information.  Breeding fair hips to excellent or good hips...I can see where that makes some sense, and where the dog's closest relatives and how well their hips are doing would also play a role. I didn't know hip dysplasia was polygenic. 

What I meant about genetic testing results is that on many breeder's own websites they will show a picture of the mother, with a link to her pedigree, and then list all the test results right below that, and then have a link to the OFA page. And on the breeder's website, all the test results are listed as good and normal etc...but when you actually click on that OFA link not all the results are displayed. You see 2 or 3 or 4. And then when you ask the breeder they say something like "oh I never got around to it" or "Oh those aren't the important tests, all you really need is hips" and things like that. Once I see results displayed on the OFA page, I am happy. 

It breaks my heart to think about Poodle mamas on crappy dry kibble.


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## Picnic

i just wish it was easier to find these quality breeders. I have contacted our NC poodle club and gotten their list, short, of breeders in NC and SC. I am looking for a miniature and finding it much more difficult than finding Standard breeders whose dogs I loved, did all the pertinent health requirements, raised them in home and we have our 6 th Standard. I would like to find a wonderful Mini companion pup in the next year, hopefully sooner, but not having good luck.


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## MiniPoo

Picnic, maybe you need to expand your search outside of the NC/SC area. There are quality breeders but perhaps you might be willing to fly out to pick up the puppy. Just a suggestion.


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## Picnic

i find it difficult to buy a dog from a breeder I have never met based on photos, other info, even recommendations. I have always visited a breeder, gotten a feel for their breeding philosophy and general feeling about the dogs. So, even though this will be only a family pet, I still feel this is important. I may expand to VA, GA and TN. Amazes me that I could always find quality Standard breeders within the 2 states and I thought Minis would be easier to find. Best to get over narrowing my quest for a black girl LOL.


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## Tiny Poodles




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## sophie anne

Picnic said:


> i find it difficult to buy a dog from a breeder I have never met based on photos, other info, even recommendations. I have always visited a breeder, gotten a feel for their breeding philosophy and general feeling about the dogs. So, even though this will be only a family pet, I still feel this is important. I may expand to VA, GA and TN. Amazes me that I could always find quality Standard breeders within the 2 states and I thought Minis would be easier to find. Best to get over narrowing my quest for a black girl LOL.


Check out eClassic/Eaglehill-South Poodles, in SC (Website). I've talked with Debbie and like her and her dogs a lot; we're actually facebook friends. She breeds primarily blacks but is not expecting any litters in the immediate future. At the least, Debbie will know other breeders in the region with upcoming litters.


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## Picnic

I decided against a Mini, have had one before, have my 6th Standard now. I went back to a breed I have loved for awhile, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, with help found one several states away that met my health requirements and more. She is now a year old, beautiful little tri color that is best buddies with my very active almost 9 YO Standard. I have had Standards (and a Mini and some other breeds) for over 45 years and will miss them when I lose Molly, hopefully not soon, but wanted a small dog with low maintenance (I have always done my own grooming), a personality more like my Standards--want and need human interaction and always with me LOL. Good luck to everyone here with their Poodles, I have loved all of mine.

Diane


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## sophie anne

Picnic said:


> I decided against a Mini, have had one before, have my 6th Standard now. I went back to a breed I have loved for awhile, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, with help found one several states away that met my health requirements and more. She is now a year old, beautiful little tri color that is best buddies with my very active almost 9 YO Standard. I have had Standards (and a Mini and some other breeds) for over 45 years and will miss them when I lose Molly, hopefully not soon, but wanted a small dog with low maintenance (I have always done my own grooming), a personality more like my Standards--want and need human interaction and always with me LOL. Good luck to everyone here with their Poodles, I have loved all of mine.
> 
> Diane


Didn't check date of post. D'oh! :doh:


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## TrixieTreasure

sophie anne said:


> Didn't check date of post. D'oh! :doh:



LOL, you're not alone! I still find myself responding to posts, only to later find out that it's many months old! I tend to not look at the date beforehand. I mostly go by what threads/posts might would interest me. In fact, when I first got here, I went right to a thread that was the most interesting for me at the time, only to find out later that the last post was several months old. It was a controversial thread, and I was accused of starting the controversy up again. Yikes! Not a good way to start off, but I had no idea. In fact, duh me had to even ask where I should look for the dates! Right in front of my face, but I couldn't see it until someone pointed it out. That happens a lot to me, in other aspects as well.


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## Mason

I'm horribly ashamed and embarrassed to admit this, but when I was a college student trying to make ends meet I worked a minimum-wage position at a pet store that sold puppies. The source of these dogs was kept secret even from employees, but it was only a small handful of names on the papers for dozens of breeds. The conditions under which these dogs were shipped were terrible, and at one point a puppy had been so injured on the truck that she had to be euthanized. I quit shortly after.

We were told that the puppies didn't come from puppy mills and we were expected to pass this lie on to the customers. Nearly all the puppies were registered with America's Pet Registry, which is absolutely worthless.

At the time, I didn't realize that these dogs came to us half-ruined by the breeders and were only made worse in the store, without adequate exercise or attention. I can only imagine what a nightmare it was to housebreak these puppies who had never been outdoors in their lives. God only knows what kind of mental disorders those poor dogs developed before they went home. Watching a border collie puppy absolutely wilt in his little 2'x5' cage broke my heart. I only lasted at that job for about 6 weeks. I was happy when people protested outside the front doors, and even happier when I found out a few years later that the store had closed.

Never, ever buy a puppy from a pet shop. For that matter, don't buy ANYTHING from a pet shop that sells puppies! The whole process should be illegal.


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## zooeysmom

Great post, Mason. Thank you for sharing.


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## lily cd re

Mason there is no shame in needing to earn a living. The real message that comes through is that you are a highly ethical and principled person to have quit a job at a time that you needed to make money rather than looking the other way.


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## Mason

Thanks, zooeysmom and lily cd re. I still feel guilty over it, but I did need the job and I'm glad I was able to leave after I saw what was going on. I was fortunate enough to get hired at another pet store (no puppies!) shortly after. It was night and day.

Pet stores that sell puppies are ALL about the puppies because the profit margin is huge -- they force their floor people to behave like used car salesmen, always pushing for the sale. They don't care if you're a reckless 19-year-old with a new credit card or a young family with too much on your plate for a dog -- if you want to play with a puppy, they'll say anything to sell you that dog. They'll lie about the breeder. They'll make puppies sound like a breeze. One of the salesmen liked to tell people that the puppy they'd picked to look at had champion lines and could produce puppies worth a lot of money. Really! It's horrendous.

I could go on for ages about it. The "kennel techs" were instructed to spend most of their time watching the puppies for any sign of defecation so that the cages always looked spotless. The idea was that people would assume that the puppies never soiled their cages and would be easy to housebreak, but the truth is that these dogs were NEVER taken outside and were actually forced to relieve themselves in their cages 100% of the time.

Though it's long been closed, the Google reviews for the store are still online. Several people posted 1-star reviews because the puppies they brought home were sick and required emergency treatment. One review noted that the puppy had congenital renal disease and didn't survive the first year. One grandmother posted a 5-star review after she went in to buy a fish and instead left with a puppy(!!!).

Trust me, even a store that looks clean and well-staffed will sell you a puppy mill dog. Even puppies who look bright-eyed and well-fed can have been recently exposed to all kinds of illnesses -- you don't see the littermates who die shortly after birth or the cagemates who have been removed for treatment. If you can't meet the parents or see the environment the puppy was born in, you're probably being lied to.


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## lily cd re

Mason your insider's perspective on the puppy pet store is invaluable. We can talk all we want to the point of seeing pink elephants, flying pigs and being blue in the face about how truly deeply bad it is to support puppy mills by buying a puppy from a pet store, but without your words about your experience here I think we don't necessarily really reach into people's hearts and minds to help them truly see that this business is evil.

I know you say you still feel guilty about having worked in this store but I hope truly and deeply that you feel lifted away from that guilt by sharing here what few of us can really know about the whitewashed retail fronts for puppy mills.


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## mimi4neeyah

This is great thanks so much, my guy a rescue I feel came from a puppy mill (love him bunches) but our next one I will do a ton of research and this is a great start. Thanks again


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## BaileyWilliams

I have read through a decent amount of this thread, and will admit it has made me a bit more nervous than anything. I'm looking to get my first SPOO this summer. I'm doing a lot of research (ex. This forum), reading books, etc. How do I find a reputable breeder? I will not be breeding- I want a loving pet and would like to introduce him to agility training as well. It's all so overwhelming... how does a breeder "prove" their health testing and results? Will breeders be less likely to sell to me since I've not had one before?


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## lily cd re

BaileyWilliams said:


> I have read through a decent amount of this thread, and will admit it has made me a bit more nervous than anything. I'm looking to get my first SPOO this summer. I'm doing a lot of research (ex. This forum), reading books, etc. How do I find a reputable breeder? I will not be breeding- I want a loving pet and would like to introduce him to agility training as well. It's all so overwhelming... how does a breeder "prove" their health testing and results? Will breeders be less likely to sell to me since I've not had one before?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't get so nervous that you get scared! A really good breeder can prove their health testing through OFA (the orthopedic foundation for animals) and other such registries that will keep records of those results or they will show you copies of the certificates from the testing agency.

As to a pet vs. a show dog, they should be one in the same. A good show dog will be soundly built, in good health and have good temperament, in other words possessed of all of the attributes you want for your companion dog.

This piece that has been posted elsewhere at PF speaks to this issue. 

I Don’t Want A Show Dog; I Just Want A Pet. by Joanna Kimball on July 13, 2010 
This is one of the most pervasive sentiments that puppy buyers, especially families, express when they're looking for a dog. What they really mean, of course, is that they don't want a show BREEDER – don't want to pay the high price they think show breeders charge, don't want to go through the often-invasive interview process, and think that they're getting a better deal or a real bargain because they can get a Lab for $300 or a Shepherd for $150. 
I want you to change your mind. I want you to not only realize the benefits of buying a show-bred dog, I want you to INSIST on a show-bred dog. And I want you to realize that the cheap dog is really the one that's the rip-off. And then I want you to go be obnoxious and, when your workmate says she's getting a puppy because her neighbor, who raises them, will give her one for free, or when your brother-in-law announces that they're buying a goldendoodle for the kids, I want you to launch yourself into their solar plexus and steal their wallets and their car keys. 
Here's why: 
If I ask you why you want a Maltese, or a Lab, or a Leonberger, or a Cardigan, I would bet you're not going to talk about how much you like their color. You're going to tell me things about personality, ability (to perform a specific task), relationships with other animals or humans, size, coat, temperament, and so on. You'll describe playing ball, or how affectionate you've heard that they are, or how well they get along with kids. 
The things you will be looking for aren't the things that describe just "dog"; they'll be the things that make this particular breed unique and unlike other breeds. 
That's where people have made the right initial decision – they've taken the time and made the effort to understand that there are differences between breeds and that they should get one that at least comes close to matching their picture of what they want a dog to be. 
Their next step, tragically, is that they go out and find a dog of that breed for as little money and with as much ease as possible. 
You need to realize that when you do this, you're going to the used car dealership, WATCHING them pry the "Audi" plate off a new car, observing them as they use Bondo to stick it on a '98 Corolla, and then writing them a check and feeling smug that you got an Audi for so little. 
It is no bargain. 
Those things that distinguish the breed you want from the generic world of "dog" are only there because somebody worked really hard to get them there. And as soon as that work ceases, the dog, no matter how purebred, begins to revert to the generic. That doesn't mean you won't get a good dog – the magic and the blessing of dogs is that they are so hard to mess up, in their good souls and minds, that even the most hideously bred one can still be a great dog – but it will not be a good Shepherd, or good Puli, or a good Cardigan. You will not get the specialized abilities, tendencies, or talents of the breed. 
If you don't NEED those special abilities or the predictability of a particular breed, you should not be buying a dog at all. You should go rescue one. That way you're saving a life and not putting money in pockets where it does not belong. 
If you want a purebred and you know that a rescue is not going to fit the bill, the absolute WORST thing you can do is assume that a name equals anything. They really are nothing more than name plates on cars. What matters is whether the engineering and design and service department back up the name plate, so you have some expectation that you're walking away with more than a label. 
Keeping a group of dogs looking and acting like their breed is hard, HARD work. If you do not get the impression that the breeder you're considering is working that hard, is that dedicated to the breed, is struggling to produce dogs that are more than a breed name, you are getting no bargain; you are only getting ripped off.


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## BaileyWilliams

lily cd re- Thank you so much for sharing! That was a great article and I agree with everything being said. I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was trying to find something less expensive- I realize that he will be my family and I am willing to do thorough research as well as travel for and pay for the perfect puppy. Like the article said, I want a standard poodle for everything that makes the breed what it is.

I would rephrase and say that I'm concerned I won't be able to find a good breeder with puppies, or that they won't be willing to sell to me for some reason. In addition to this forum, Ive been looking at some breeders on the AKC website, and am in a Facebook group (AKC/CKC/UKC Standard Poodles). I assume these are acceptable means of finding breeders, as long as I do my due diligence (visit, meet the mother, get papers/registration/pedigree/health testing docs)? Are there any other places you recommend getting connected?

Thanks again!



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## asuk

This is a very informative thread!

I have a question. I found an excellent breeder who does health testing, etc. I am going to visit her in the spring to have a feel for her place and hopefully meet my future puppy's mom. She operates on the 'she will pick a pup based on our lifestyle', I have no issues with this. I don't do well when it comes to choices! :aetsch:

Now, I am assuming she will send me pictures, etc when the pups are born. How important it is to meet the mom and pups then? I have asked the breeder if she is willing to bring the pup to us in another city and she is willing, this is awesome! But if it's absolutely important for us to meet the mum (don't think dad will be there), we are willing to make that drive.

Thoughts?


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## fjm

I think it rather depends on how much you know about the breeder. If you are visiting, seeing her premises and dogs and building a relationship, and know that she is someone with a good reputation and that you can trust, that is a very, very different matter from someone buying a puppy off the internet based on cute pictures and celebrity endorsements! The advice to see the puppy with its mother is largely to protect people from sellers of puppy mill and imported pups, who advertise as if they are home bred, and to ensure that the buyer knows what sort of environment the puppy has been raised in.


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## lily cd re

BaileyWilliams I didn't think you were trying to go some sort of less than excellent route to a puppy. I just like that piece so much that I try to make sure it gets seen and your post made me think of it. To me it sounds like you are doing all the right things to find a great breeder and a wonderful new family member. When you get to the point where you are looking at specific breeders or litters you can ask around here and there may well be someone who knows the breeder you are interested in.


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## KrazyK

When looking at puppies and health tests, what should I expect from a breeder who does thorough health testing for SPoos? cataract, thyroid, cardiac, von Willebrands and hips? What about a line that doesn't have bloat in it? Is there a test for this? is there anything I am missing or is less important? The DNA is mostly for colour? If they say they are low COI - is there some way they should be showing that? Thank- you all so much for all this great information!!


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## BaileyWilliams

Question on etiquette: my boyfriend and I are looking for a SPOO puppy this summer. I know that while we may be communicating with a breeder, there is no guarantee what they will have (we want a male, ideally not brown or black) or that we will get a puppy. When you ask to be placed on a waitlist, is that a commitment? It seems most beneficial to ask to be put on a waitlist of several breeders, Im just not sure what's acceptable/the norm. Thank you!


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## lily cd re

I think the key is to be totally transparent. However when I was looking for Javelin I really was only looking at one breeder, so no big complications there for me.


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## lisasgirl

I'd say if it's just an informal, "please let me know when you have a litter coming up" kind of thing, then you're fine to do that with multiple breeders. If you've put down a deposit and/or they're otherwise saving a specific spot for you in an upcoming litter, then you should probably let them know that you're looking elsewhere as well.


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## mjpa

I think it's at the point of putting down a deposit that you are making a commitment. 
And if you are open about what you want it will not be a surprise to the breeder if the litter doesn't have what you are looking for.


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## Verve

BaileyWilliams said:


> Question on etiquette: my boyfriend and I are looking for a SPOO puppy this summer. I know that while we may be communicating with a breeder, there is no guarantee what they will have (we want a male, ideally not brown or black) or that we will get a puppy. When you ask to be placed on a waitlist, is that a commitment? It seems most beneficial to ask to be put on a waitlist of several breeders, Im just not sure what's acceptable/the norm. Thank you!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As others said, honesty is the key. Somebody wrote a funny blog post some years ago from the breeder's perspective, and pointed out that breeders talk to each other! I'm going to make three seemingly unrelated statements that sort of sum up my take on this issue. 

1) It's not in anybody's interest for you to take a puppy you don't feel is ideal for you (I haven't taken deposits, because I generally have a feel for when somebody is seriously committed to a litter.) On the other side, hard-sell tactics on the part of a breeder (only two spots left on the waiting list!!!) make me squeamish. 

2) I think it's a best practice to focus on choosing a breeder whose dogs and general approach you like, and focus less on your "perfect" puppy. I understand sex and color preferences, but those things might get in the way of the ideal puppy for you. 

3) There is a type of puppy buyer out there that every breeder knows about: the "shopper," who is always looking for the perfect puppy (usually with a list of criteria as long as their arm) and never ever commits. Be aware that as you are sizing up a breeder, a breeder is sizing you up on a number of fronts, including your willingness to commit to a puppy.


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## lily cd re

Well said Verve. Javelin's breeder did take a tiny deposit of $100, which she would certainly have returned if things weren't right for committing to that litter. Initially I had 2nd choice boy, but then the woman who had first choice changed her mind about the timing as her older dog had been diagnosed with cancer. I know her deposit was returned to her and there certainly was no negative tactics about missing a once in a lifetime opportunity either. The kinds of things we are talking about at this point make a repeat customer.

I also want to support your comment about color. It is much lower on the list for me than temperament, health and knowing that the breeder is a good and ethical person to deal with. I would not eliminate any potentially good working pup because it was the wrong color. There is no perfect puppy. I would have loved it if I had been able to get Javelin one month earlier in the summer, but everything else was just right. His breeder's next litter was silvers, but had the summer litter been silvers he would be a silver (even though I prefer black).


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## twyla

I have read through this thread many times lately because it is never too soon to start preparing for my next pup/adult.

I usually figure myself as a smart person but it's easy to make a mistake or be misled 

So I am putting this here as a cautionary tale because I have read more than a few posts of late regarding the high cost of health testing of poodle pups, the questions or just blatant statements of why one should pay these so called high prices, the pup I got from them is just fine.

I am not a breeder but I do reccomend you do your homework, truth be known I didn't on either of my pups

My Beatrice, is a toy poodle from a "home" breeder and she is a wonderful dog but what it cost me to get her bi-lateral luxating patellas surgically repaired, before she was 3 years old, I "jokingly say" I could have gotten another puppy for what it cost to fix them, truth is at NY prices vet othro prices I could have gotten several puppies from a reputable breeder. 

For those who cannot do the math that is nearly $8000

Would pet insurance saved me, nope because my vet said at her first visit I got her at just shy of 18 weeks her knees were not great, but she may not get worse. 

Yep I did my homework now but on knee strengthing exercises a pup I fell hard for.

I hear again and again the home breeders have beautiful puppies, hate to tell you all puppies are beautiful, it's easier to walk away when it's a photo on the computer than when it's a warm wiggly puppy in your lap.

And it's easy to think that a terrible breeder is someone who has puppy mill like conditions, that there are diseases like parvo, but I advise you to really look at the parents because that is what your pup will look like grown up

But when it's something that could have been avoided by good breeding practices like don't breed dogs that have crap knees or insert what other tested for maladies in here... seems some folks are thinking this can't possible affect them.

My Beatrice who is 39 months old at the time of this post, had her first surgery at a little over 16 months of age to repair a torn crucitate ligament and grade 3 luxating patella in her left knee and was 35 months old when she had her grade 4 right knee repaired.

Sure she is happy now, but basically I had a crippled dog up until now

You may luck out with a home breeder, me next time I will either adopt from a shelter, which is a crap shoot on genetics and temperment ( but I won't be lining someones pocket with $$$$) or find myself a breeder that does the required testing

okay I am done now, go back to you research


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## lily cd re

twyla I am glad you made the comments you did and appreciate that you were so candid about Beatrice and her knee issues. I also noticed posts regarding whether paying for the price of health testing was worth it late last night and didn't reply at the time because I was tired. If you hadn't posted I would have, but I don't have a story like Bea's to tell, so I think you made it real.


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## TXPoodle

Is there really risk of Parvo if they let too many people visit the facility? One breeder is saying that is the reason that you can only come on visit day


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## lily cd re

Parvovirus is very cosmopolitan and highly contagious so yes I would respect that a breeder who has a particular routine about meeting puppies is doing things to minimize risks.

The first time I met Javelin and his litter mates they were just about 5 weeks old. I had Lily and Peeves in my truck and in my truck they stayed. To enter the yard by way of an area that served as the puppies outdoor run I was asked to step onto a disinfectant soaked towel in a tray and I had to wash my hands before I touched any puppies. I thought that was all quite reasonable and reassuring that I would bring home a healthy pup.


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## Verve

TXPoodle said:


> Is there really risk of Parvo if they let too many people visit the facility? One breeder is saying that is the reason that you can only come on visit day


This comes up OVER and OVER on breeder groups, and you do get a range of responses, with a few breeders not allowing visitors. Here's the thing: parvo can kill a puppy, but so can undersocialization. IMO there are many ways short of keeping puppies in a bubble for 8-10 weeks to protect them from parvo and other diseases while providing a stimulating environment (i.e., outdoors and a variety of surfaces) and lots of human interaction. 

The other thing to understand is that assuming the dam has good immunity from parvo and distemper, and assuming the puppies got adequate colostrum (first milk after whelping), the puppies will have good protection via maternal immunity for some weeks after birth. In fact, that's why you need to give a series of parvo/distemper shots to puppies--to make sure that one of them is given late enough that it isn't overridden by maternal antibodies. That is a long geeky way of explaining that although I don't want to introduce parvo into my house, I also don't see visitors as walking parvo bombs. I'm more worried about my breeder friends who have been tromping around dog shows than I am my non-dog friends and other visitors. 

So I welcome visitors. I ask people to wear clean clothes and make sure they haven't recently visited a dog park, a dog show, or another breeder's house. Visitors remove shoes and wash hands. 

Last year we lost a wonderful toy poodle breeder, Gayle Roberson of Poco a Poco toy poodles (BEST kennel name ever!). But her website lives on, and includes some great advice on shopping for a puppy. 

: Poco A Poco Toy Poodles


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## TXPoodle

I like the process you described to wash and step in tray...this breeder won't let you meet dogs until adoption day...and it makes me leery. but all else on their site seems pretty spot on. BTW, I just dislike all the 'doodles' all they all want is the poodle traits...just get a poodle I say!!!

Safari Doodles - Golden Doodles | Labradoodles | Bordoodles


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## fjm

I would certainly avoid a breeder who would not let me see their kennels and meet their dogs until I arrived to collect a puppy. How can you know what sort of set up they have if you cannot visit?! And how can they assess you as a suitable home without ever meeting you?


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## lily cd re

Based on a discussion in another thread here is a good screening tool for looking at websites. You want to see a reflection of the breeder's goals and work with their dogs to prove their worthiness for passing on their genes. Don't be pulled into the puppy inventory page (often with PayPal links) where you can reserve your specific puppy sight unseen. Someone with lots of available puppies on a website is potentially a miller, broker or other form of greeder.


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## cate&clair

PaddleAddict said:


> Wonderful post FJM!
> 
> Might I add, a red flag is breeders offering "papers" from questionable "registries" (which have few if any regulations and will register any puppy or dog for a fee, even mixed breeds and cross-bred designer dogs):
> 
> CKC (Continental Kennel Club, not to be confused with Canadian Kennel Club)
> APRI (American Pet Registry Inc)
> ACA (American Canine Registry)
> And so on (there are many, many more)
> 
> 
> Legit all-breed registries include:
> 
> American Kennel Club (AKC)
> United Kennel Club (UKC)
> Canadian Kennel Club (CKC)
> The Kennel Club (UK)
> 
> There are many other legit national kennel clubs in countries throughout the world.


 Another red flag to me is "breeders" who do nothing with their dogs. They don't show in conformation, obedience, agility trials, hunting trials, tracking, or participate in therapy work. 

If the parents are not anything else but breeding dogs, why would that be? Someone who loves the breed, any breed, would be involved in things their dog is bred to do, or at least want to share and show off their wonderful pets. 

I talked with a lot of breeders before finding my puppy. Registration with reputable Kennel Clubs is a good thing, but registering dogs is only paperwork. Having health testing is good too, but still does not require the love and dedication that breeders who love the breed should demonstrate by participating in some kind of dog-related activity with their dogs.


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## lily cd re

Well said cate&clair. I think poodles are so much more than just a pretty face and that doing some sort of activity with them takes advantage of their brainy ways. A small part of why I wanted a standard poodle when I got Lily was because obedience as a sport essentially started with them. If the right temperament isn't in the lines then the dog won't do good work and the only way to know for sure about the temperament is to have dogs who do things as the parents, grandparents, etc.


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## david1438

Excellent post! We put a deposit on a new pup a few weeks ago. He'll come home March 1. Your post was great confirmation because we seem to have done it right!


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## tripper

*won't allow visit also*

I too found a breeder that looked great on the website, requires references, does lots with their dogs BUT will not allow a visit (due to germs) prior to the puppies being weaned. That just doesn't sit right with me. Anyone recommend any standard breeders in Michigan or surrounding states? TIA.


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## twyla

*I am quoting because some hard lessons need to be shared*



twyla said:


> I have read through this thread many times lately because it is never too soon to start preparing for my next pup/adult.
> 
> I usually figure myself as a smart person but it's easy to make a mistake or be misled
> 
> So I am putting this here as a cautionary tale because I have read more than a few posts of late regarding the high cost of health testing of poodle pups, the questions or just blatant statements of why one should pay these so called high prices, the pup I got from them is just fine.
> 
> I am not a breeder but I do reccomend you do your homework, truth be known I didn't on either of my pups
> 
> My Beatrice, is a toy poodle from a "home" breeder and she is a wonderful dog but what it cost me to get her bi-lateral luxating patellas surgically repaired, before she was 3 years old, I "jokingly say" I could have gotten another puppy for what it cost to fix them, truth is at NY prices vet othro prices I could have gotten several puppies from a reputable breeder.
> 
> For those who cannot do the math that is nearly $8000
> 
> Would pet insurance saved me, nope because my vet said at her first visit I got her at just shy of 18 weeks her knees were not great, but she may not get worse.
> 
> Yep I did my homework now but on knee strengthing exercises a pup I fell hard for.
> 
> I hear again and again the home breeders have beautiful puppies, hate to tell you all puppies are beautiful, it's easier to walk away when it's a photo on the computer than when it's a warm wiggly puppy in your lap.
> 
> And it's easy to think that a terrible breeder is someone who has puppy mill like conditions, that there are diseases like parvo, but I advise you to really look at the parents because that is what your pup will look like grown up
> 
> But when it's something that could have been avoided by good breeding practices like don't breed dogs that have crap knees or insert what other tested for maladies in here... seems some folks are thinking this can't possible affect them.
> 
> My Beatrice who is 39 months old at the time of this post, had her first surgery at a little over 16 months of age to repair a torn crucitate ligament and grade 3 luxating patella in her left knee and was 35 months old when she had her grade 4 right knee repaired.
> 
> Sure she is happy now, but basically I had a crippled dog up until now
> 
> You may luck out with a home breeder, me next time I will either adopt from a shelter, which is a crap shoot on genetics and temperment ( but I won't be lining someones pocket with $$$$) or find myself a breeder that does the required testing
> 
> okay I am done now, go back to you research




It's is a year later for Beatrice and I, she is suffering from cruciates and will most likely need another surgery to repair her cruciates ligament. Also she in the early stages of chronic kidney disease. 

http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/260617-beatrices-ultrasound-report.html


Hopefully after reading what I wrote you will please please please do your home work because if you think that $1800 - $2500 is too much for a pup from highly reputable breeder who does all health and genetic testing remember my cautionary tale.


Beatrice is 4 years old and I have spent another $2k on my $750 home bred cute wiggly warm sweet brown puppy.

I could have bought 4 puppies from highly reputable breeder who does all health and genetic testing for what I've paid trying to get my sweet little girl healthy.

Okay go back what you were doing I am off my soap box.


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## lily cd re

twyla I am sorry you are going through all this with Bea. It is a rough bit of news for her. I do though once again have to thank you for your candor about what is happening with her. I hope people looking for the bargain puppy that a BYB or miller will take heed from your unfortunate problems with your cute little Bea.


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## Charlie's Person

twyla said:


> It's is a year later for Beatrice and I, she is suffering from cruciates and will most likely need another surgery to repair her cruciates ligament. Also she in the early stages of chronic kidney disease.
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/260617-beatrices-ultrasound-report.html
> 
> 
> Hopefully after reading what I wrote you will please please please do your home work because if you think that $1800 - $2500 is too much for a pup from highly reputable breeder who does all health and genetic testing remember my cautionary tale.
> 
> 
> Beatrice is 4 years old and I have spent another $2k on my $750 home bred cute wiggly warm sweet brown puppy.
> 
> I could have bought 4 puppies from highly reputable breeder who does all health and genetic testing for what I've paid trying to get my sweet little girl healthy.
> 
> Okay go back what you were doing I am off my soap box.


So sorry. We did not do our research on our dog 35 years ago. Amazing personality, terrible health issues

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


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## twyla

Charlie's Person said:


> So sorry. We did not do our research on our dog 35 years ago. Amazing personality, terrible health issues
> 
> Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


Thank you All I can do is love my Beatrice, I do have my healthy boy Leonard thanks to what I have learned here


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## twyla

I am here to once again say do your research careful because any idiot can put two dogs together and make awesomely cute puppies because let's face it all puppies are adorable. But not all dogs should be bred, nor should just anyone be breeding dogs.
My toy poodle Beatrice has had a short pain filled life, thanks to idiots.
Congenital and inherited problems, luxating patellas end with deeper surgeries at 16 months and 3 years, diagnosed with early chronic kidney disease at age 4, at age 5 terminal cancer Lymphangiosarcoma, I don't know if she will see her 6th birthday on April 1st, she has lived longer than they thought she would.
My toy Pia has severe food intolerances, distachsis (inward growing lashes), and now is now being treated for cervical spine pain, thought is was the elbows, her conformation is horrible. But my vet and strongly suspect I.V.D.D.
(Intervertebral disc disease) we are treating with steroids and loads of rest for the next 4 to 6 weeks. miniature poodles are one of the breeds that can get this, damn genetic disorders.
Make sure the parents are friendly, they are cleaning housed, nicely groomed. The parents are old enough to be bred, which should when their health testing is done , like knees cannot be properly assessed until a toy poodle is two.
You think this can't happen not my poodle, or I only want pet quality so the testing isn't necessary.
I am never going see my girls get to gracefully age with me into retirement.
I was stupid and didn't know better, never again my advice is find a breeder that health tests, that also does confirmation, does agility, hunts does something with their dogs other than just make cute puppies.
Save up for that puppy, that you may think is expensive right now or you will be paying and paying after.
Gimmicky colors and sizes aside, I want my poodle pup to grow up healthy happy with and awesome temperament otherwise I will go to a rescue.


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## sandraeric

Thanks for sharing. It helped me a lot.


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## Jstanfill

fjm said:


> We have many discussions on here as to what constitutes a really good breeder, and rightly set our standards very high. In an ideal world, everyone would be prepared to research carefully, to build a relationship with an excellent breeder, and be ready to wait as long as it took for the right puppy to come along. But unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world...
> 
> In the hope of possibly saving new puppy owners from heartbreak, here are a few absolutely basic checks to go through when looking for a pup.
> 
> *Absolute basics of puppy buying*
> 
> • *Caveat emptor - buyer beware.
> • Visit the puppy at its home, and see it with its mother.
> • Understand and expect basic health tests and checks for parents and for puppies
> • Get copies of registration and other documents with the puppy
> 
> 
> Caveat emptor - buyer beware.*
> Most puppies are friendly, honest, desirous of pleasing, and want to be with you for the long term. Some, but not all, puppy sellers are the same. Would you buy a car sight unseen, from a small ad giving only a mobile phone number? Without registration papers or proof of ownership? When you buy a puppy, you are taking on responsibility for a living, breathing, thinking creature for the next 15 years or so - you can afford a little (or even a lot of) time, thought and research to make sure you choose wisely.
> 
> *Visit the puppy at its home, and see it with its mother.*
> If the seller makes excuses - fear of animal rights extremists, in the process of redecorating, mother is elsewhere/out for a walk/too protective of her puppies to be seen, it is easier to deliver the puppy or meet you half way - there is a very high probability they are running or fronting a puppy mill. Practically all puppies in pet shops or sold through dealers (including internet dealers) are produced in puppy mills. Many small ads and free ads - online and in newspapers - are placed by dealers. Dogs in puppy mills are kept and treated as livestock, to be bred till they are no longer useful and then discarded. Every puppy bought from one encourages the business to continue. Every puppy they are unable to sell discourages the continuation. Don't support them - you may believe that you are rescuing the puppy (although if unsold, it will probably eventually find its way into rescue and a good home that way without enriching anyone along the way), but you are supporting the exploitation of the parents. Insist on seeing the puppy with its mother and litter mates, so that you can judge for yourself the puppy's health and the environment it has been raised in.
> 
> If you decide to have the puppy shipped to you, be even more careful. Deal directly with the breeder, and expect to have many detailed conversations before they accept you as a home for one of their pups. Look for genuine references (not celebrity endorsements), and ask for veterinary and other references. If at all possible, visit yourself, if not, ask a friend or relation to visit for you. Don't be misled by contracts that are all to the seller's benefit, and avoid anyone who is only interested in getting your credit card details, and not in the kind of home you are offering. And if the offer seems too good to be true, it probably is - there is a well known internet scam offering puppies "free", but then asking huge shipping fees for a puppy that never arrives...
> 
> People who love their dogs and their puppies care about what happens to them. They will want to talk to you about whether the pup is right for you, to know that you are able to look after it well, to meet you and show off their dogs and pups. They will not treat the puppy like a commodity, with money the only consideration. They would not dream of selling puppies through a dealer or pet shop (not even Harrods!). They will be busy looking after dogs and pups, so may not always answer the phone immediately - schedule a telephone conversation, and then a visit, before making any decision, to make sure this is the right pup for you, and that you are the right human for the puppy.
> 
> *Understand and expect basic health tests and checks for parents and for puppies*
> Most breeds, including poodles, have a number of inherited health problems that can be avoided by proper testing before the parents are bred. These include PRA (a form of blindness), and joint problems with hips and knees. Because many of these problems are common to several breeds, poodle mixes are not immune - and parents of crosses need to be tested just the same. There are different schemes in different countries, you need to check which are relevant to your country, but be aware that a puppy from untested parents - particularly closely related untested parents, as is often the case in puppy mills and back yard breeders - may have very significant health problems. Familiarise yourself with what the test results should look like and what they mean, and ask to see them.
> 
> Puppies need regular worming, and the breeder should have a record of which wormer has been used, and when the pup was last treated. Pups should have clean coats, bright eyes (some pups get tear staining while teething, but extensive tear stains can indicate eye problems that might need veterinary treatment), clean ears with no smell, no signs of diarrhoea around the anus, and should generally smell of puppy. Check the bite - the top teeth should very slightly overlap the bottom teeth like the blades of a pair of scissors. Pups should be cheerful and playful - be wary of a puppy that seems lethargic or overly fearful.
> 
> *Get copies of registration and other documents with the puppy*
> If you are buying and paying for a pure bred, registered puppy, make sure you are given all the relevant documents with the puppy. If they are not available for some reason (and Kennel Clubs can be very slow with documentation), and you are not dealing with a highly reputable breeder with a reputation to maintain, it is quite possible that the papers may never materialise. Be aware that not all registries are equal - some are there purely to make bad breeders look good, and have been known to register invented breeds, cats, and even kangaroos! Check other papers - vaccination certificates, veterinary certificates - carefully. In the UK, most good breeders will take advantage of the insurance schemes for breeders to ensure pups are covered for the first few weeks in their new homes - make sure you have the documentation for this.
> 
> And if in doubt, walk away. And if you doubt your ability to walk away, take a hard headed friend or relation with you. It can be very, very difficult to do when puppies are so adorable, but much better to take time to sleep on your decision than to get it wrong.


Poodles also have heart issues so , ask how mom and dad are before purchasing , mine is mixed breed so will have heart issues and start with heart murmur


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## Rose n Poos

Jstanfill said:


> Poodles also have heart issues so , ask how mom and dad are before purchasing , mine is mixed breed so will have heart issues and start with heart murmur


It's always recommended to get a history of health and proof of health testing. There is no purebred or mixed breed dog that I know of which can completely escape genetic health issues. This is why health testing of the sire's and dam's is so important to the future of the individual puppies and any future puppies from them.

I'm not sure why you expect your pup is going to have heart issues or a murmur. That's not a given, especially not just because of being a mixed breed. 

If you're saying that one or both of your pup's parents have a diagnosed heart condition and your pup is also diagnosed already with a heart murmur, I'm sorry to hear that, for you all. 

Testing could have prevented this, by not breeding affected dogs.


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## Olive Love

Hi,

Buying a puppy safely is very important. Some illeagal dealers own puppy mills or farms that produce many puppies without care for the health and happiness of the mothers and puppies. There are many risks of owning a illeagally bred puppy, but by buying a puppy safely, they can be avoided.

*Risks of owning an illeagally bred puppy:*

_1. Early death-_
Most illegally bred puppies are sold online through social media or small ad sites, and the terrible fact is that more than 1 in 6 (15%) of those puppies bought online get sick or die in their first year.

_2. Disease-_
When you take your puppy home, it could develop severe illness straight away due to infection and the absence of vaccinations at puppy farms. Puppy farmed pups are more likely to have possibly life-threatning genetic disorders and deadly infectious diseases such as parvovirus, which causes vomiting and diarrhoea amongst other symptoms and can cost up to $6325 to treat.

_3. Behavior issues-_
Puppies from puppy farms are more likely to be more aggressive, anxious and show symptoms of trauma, as a result of being brought by in a stressful environment by puppy dealers. Unfortunately, these issues may never go away – they cannot always be solved through training or by a loving and caring home.

_4. Increased vet bills-_
The cost of buying a dog from a puppy farm can rack up over its lifetime. Owners who purchased from an Assured Breeder spent nearly 20% less in vet bills during their dog’s lifetime, compared to those from puppy farms.

_5. Fuelling the trade-_
Although it is a natural instinct to want to rescue a puppy from an unlikely situation, buying from an illegal dealer helps fuel a lucrative criminal industry that breeds dogs for profit, with no care for the welfare of the mum or puppy. This leads to further suffering in the long run.

*When you are looking online:*

_1. Covid tactics-_
Many illegal breeders are using coronavirus as an excuse for you not to come to visit the puppy before you buy. Reputable breeders will always allow you to see the puppy in its home environment and meet the mum safely. Given the current Government travel restriction, you should either source your puppy from a reputable breeder within your local authority area or wait until you can travel safely outside your area, even if that means having to wait a bit longer to get your puppy.

_2. Phone numbers-_
Many illegally farmed puppies are sold online, and dealers may create many adverts providing the same mobile number and descriptions of puppies. Try googling the number and descriptions to see if they’ve been used on lots of other adverts.

_3. Stolen descriptions_
Illegal dealers often copy and paste advert descriptions, and re-use them for selling multiple litters. To find out if the description of the puppy you’re thinking of buying is real or not, copy and paste it into your search engine. Again, if various adverts come up, it’s likely that your advert hasn’t been written by a verified seller.

_4. Pasports-_
If your puppy is advertised as having its own passport, this could be a sign that the puppy has been farmed overseas and brought to the Country the puppy currently is in to be sold.

_5. Vaccinations-_
Puppies can’t be vaccinated until they are over four weeks old. If the advert claims that the puppies have been vaccinated already and they are said to be younger than four weeks old, this claim is untrue.

_6. Multiple litters-_
If your seller is advertising multiple litters from different breeds of dog, this is a giveaway that they may be dealing puppy farmed dogs on a large scale. Verified sellers will mostly only trade in one breed of dog.

*When meeting the puppy:*

_1. Meet at their home-_
Always visit the puppy in the place where they’ve been bred and reared. It’s important that you follow the current coronavirus travel restriction and don’t travel outside your local authority area if advised not to. Don’t agree to meet halfway due to current travel restrictions, in places like a car park, lay-by, any other unusual place, or even have the puppy delivered directly to your door. Dealers may use the pandemic as an excuse to meet you somewhere and will often rent houses to sell puppies from, so it’s important to look out for all the warning signs.

_2. Meet the mum-_
Make sure you see the puppy’s mum. Due to coronavirus and the current travel restriction in place, meeting the puppy with its mum may not always be possible. You should wait until you can safely travel outside your area if you’re not buying a puppy within your local authority. Meeting the mum with her pups and having a chance to discuss matters with the breeder are vital steps to buying a puppy safely. Remember, some dealers will use an unrelated fake mum, but if she isn’t showing the puppies any attention, or watching you when you interact with her pups, she isn’t their mum.

_3. Check the age and health of the puppy-_
Puppies being sold before they’re at least eight weeks old is an immediate red flag. They need to stay with their mum long enough so that they can socialise and learn behaviours. Check that the puppy looks healthy with bright eyes and shiny fur. Any concerns you raise about the puppy’s health should not be swept aside and classed as ‘normal for the breed’. Healthy, happy and socialised puppies are naturally curious and will want to interact with you and their surroundings. If they are timid and not willing to interact, ask yourself why?

_4. Check you get the right paperwork-_
Illegal breeders will make excuses or give you fake paperwork that doesn’t look quite right. You should receive paperwork and certifications of vaccinations, worming records, microchipping certificates, and results of any health tests. Ideally, you’ll get a puppy contract. Verified and safe commercial breeders will have a local authority licence, and evidence of Assured Breeder Scheme membership.

_5. Take your time-_
If you feel like you’re being rushed to part with cash, pressured into buying a puppy or aren’t asked about your home situation, it may be an illegal breeder. Legitimate sellers won’t ever rush you and won’t mind you visiting the puppy more than once. Treat any dealer that can offer you a puppy within a few days with caution. Established, reputable dealers often have waiting lists, which can be even longer just now due to the pandemic.

_6. Look at the price-_
The price of puppies has more than doubled since lockdown, according to recent news, so it’s important to be aware that many illegal puppy traders are trying to cash in by increasing their prices to meet demand. Also, remember that a reputable breeder will never pressure you to part with cash or pay the full amount upfront, and you should never be asked to pay for your puppy online.

_7. Think long term-_
As the saying goes, a puppy is for life not just for Christmas, or lockdown for that matter. Please consider all the long-term implications of owning a puppy, such as puppy training, veterinary bills and food. Also, think about your day-to-day lifestyle. Do you have time to walk your puppy regularly - even after lockdown? How will your puppy respond to any children in your household? Reputable breeders and re-homing centres will ask these kinds of questions, whereas illegal traders may not.

*Reporting a possible illegal dealer:*

_United States-_
Cruelty or neglect laws vary by state but typically address conditions such as animals without food and water, sick dogs who are not being medically treated or dogs without adequate shelter from the elements. Prepare specific details of your complaint in advance and, after you have made a report, get a case number or contact information related to your case. If you do not hear back from the local authorities within a week, please call them back to ask for an update, but be aware that if there is an ongoing investigation some information may not be available to the public. If you can't get local help for the situation or are not sure who to call, please contact us. You may also wish to contact the United States Department of Agriculture Animal Care Division and find out if the USDA licenses the facility owner. Only "wholesale" breeding facilities (those that sell puppies to other businesses who in turn sell the puppies to the public) are required to be USDA licensed—this is a small portion of all the large-scale breeders in the country. Currently licensed breeders and some of their most recent inspection reports are available on the USDA/APHIS website. The HSUS Puppy Mill Task Force tipline, 1-877-MILL-TIP, is available to anyone with information on a possible crime involving puppy mills—especially information from those with "insider" knowledge, or from law enforcement officials who might be aware of such operations. If you witnessed deplorable conditions in person and wish to file a complaint with the HSUS, please call 1-877-MILL-TIP or report it. You can also file a complaint with the USDA. If you have purchased a puppy and wish to report problems to the HSUS, please complete the Pet Seller Complaint form. This form allows us to track data accurately and ensure that we have as much information as possible to help us in our fight to stop puppy mills.

_Canada-_
In Canada, we don’t have any laws specifically against puppy mills. But the worst puppy mills are in violation of animal cruelty laws due to the suffering and distress endured by the animals. The problem is that they are located in rural areas and are difficult for humane society or SPCA inspectors to uncover. When inspectors do find puppy mills, they are quick to take action to investigate. If you find or suspect a puppy mill, call your local humane society or SPCA or the police

_United Kingdoms-_
Do you think your puppy, or a puppy you have visited may be from a puppy farm? Or do you think you might have come into contact with an illegal puppy dealer? If so, you can report them to the Scottish SPCA below and help stop puppy farming for good.

*Look beyond cute; the three pup checks:*

_1. Look for the mum-_
Many illegal breeders are using coronavirus as an excuse for you not to come to the place where the puppy was bred and see it with its mum. Given the current Government travel restriction, you should either source your puppy from a reputable breeder within your local authority area or wait until you can travel safely outside your area. This might mean meeting the puppy and its mum isn’t possible just now, but it’s important that you wait until the travel restriction allows you to do so. This will let you to see the puppy in its home environment and meet the mum safely. Never agree to meet halfway due to current travel restrictions, in places like a car park, lay-by, any other unusual place, or have the puppy delivered directly to your door. Reputable breeders will always work within the current Government guidelines.

_2. Look for paperwork-_
You should always receive the puppy’s paperwork for vaccinations, microchipping, anti-worming medications and check-ups. Some dealers might use the current lockdown restrictions for not providing these essential documents or provide fake paperwork that doesn’t look right, or which doesn’t have the name, number and address of a real veterinary practice.

_3. Look beyond cute-_
Even if you are desperate for a pup right now or overcome by strong emotion to rescue it, if something doesn’t feel right, walk away and report your concerns to the right organization.

Now more than ever, it’s important to *#LookBeyondCute* and be aware of the three ‘Pup Checks’ to buy a puppy safely.



Note, this information was written during the pandemic and as a result some info may not be up to date in the future.

Credit goes to Buy A Puppy Safely for the information and reporting a illeagal dealer in the UK, Humane Canada for reporting a illeagal dealer in Canada and Humane Society of the United States for reporting a illeagal dealer in the US.

Olive Love


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## fjm

Petfishing - don't get fooled


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## Minie

fjm said:


> Petfishing - don't get fooled


Fabulous!


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