# So you think you want to show....



## k8rz (Dec 27, 2010)

I totally agree with you! I am a newbie and have always wanted to show dogs, but just like anything else, you have to do your research beforehand. When you buy a dog you make a commitment to that dog for it's whole life, but when you buy a show prospect, you are making a commitment to the breeder as well to take what they have been cultivating and see it the rest of the way through. I know that someday I will be able to finish a dog, but only when I know I'm in a place in my life to devote everything I need to devote to the dog and it's breeder.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Very true!

I am very seriously considering buying my next standard for show. The reasons you explained are why I am growing Millie's CC out. She is going through coat change and I am putting myself through this misery for no reason other than to prove to myself (and others) that I can do it. Today I spent an hour brushing out mats that formed _overnight_ in her neck hair. Feralpudel and others on this forum suggested that I grow coat on Millie to prove to breeders that I can take care of coat, etc. I know of a good handler in my area (Sharon Svoboda) and a show groomer (actually, Millie goes to this groomer). Her groomer has shown/championed several poodles and actually said Millie acts just like an old show dog on the grooming table  I shoulda just shown her!!! Ha. I have also been building connections with poodle people, breeders and groomers in the area. I am attending dog shows when I can.

I only bathe Millie every 10-14 days (instead of weekly) and her coat is only 6 inches long at the neck (instead of 12+ inches) and it _still_ takes hours to dry her coat. When I brush her I don't have to worry about big chunks of hair coming out due to coat change. And I don't have to worry when Henry roughouses with her - pulling out chunks of hair. While I don't have to worry about these things now, I am definitely at least becoming aware of the struggles involved with growing show coat!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Stargazer, do you have any other good advice for someone considering showing in the future? I would love to be as prepared as possible!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

as a newbie trying to kick the door in and get a foot into the show ring I have to disagree with what you're saying...

I have read many show contracts, and I have spoken to many breeders that are reputable in my area (theres a HUGE cluster of them) and every single one of them has given me the same advice "*DO NOT* accept something inferior because you're just starting!!!" 
almost every contract that I have read states that I must pay 100% of the handling, grooming, and any other extra fees on my own and I *MUST* get a title in conformation on the dog/bitch or I'd be reprimanded with a fine (or lawsuit) or my dog/bitch would be relinquished back to the breeder

so as a newbie...I'm to accept the terms of these contracts but still be willing to go with a dog that may never finish because the breeder wasn't willing to take a chance?

I can't say what I'd do as the breeder in these situations because quite honestly...I have little desire to breed, but as a newbie I would look elsewhere if I were told flat and out that I was going to get a subpar puppy

How could I (or any other newbie for that matter) possibly ever honour a contract that states that you *MUST* finish the dog if they know that they're going to have an inferior puppy?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Stargazer, do you have any other good advice for someone considering showing in the future? I would love to be as prepared as possible!


CM the advice I have been given (and feel comfortable enough to pass on) is to attend EVERY show you can conceivably attend!, meet and speak to every single person you see with a poodle, and find someone who is willing to teach you the things you need to know, that lives relatively close to you

all of this advice has helped me narrow down my breeder hunt, and my handler hunt for WHEN I get my show puppy
I know that I have a person who is willing to take the time out of their schedule to help me along and is more than willing to answer my sometimes bothersome questions!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

What? I didn't notice Stargazer saying anything about newbies getting inferior quality show puppies??? She is simply saying that there is much more involved than many newbies realize.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Stargazerpoodles said:


> I would also not be selling them the "Best", so they would have to understand that it may take longer to finish. I have no problem mentoring someone, as long as they agree to what I know needs doing, and follow thru.


I didn't mean to infer that a breeder was going to sell anyone a lame duck...=\
just that I've been advised by every breeder (in the North East...literally...) to only accept the BEST nothing less than that


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I think breeder and buyer need to do their homework...... It's a two way street. 

Are breeders selling a show puppy to a home that has no experience with a poodle?

Has the breeder spent quality time with potential show buyer? 

Why wouldn't a newbie have some knowledge of costs and classes prior to getting the pup? Wouldn't this be part of the breeders responsibility to educate?

I know some buyers bite off more than they can chew - and this sucks, but there is no guarantee that said "show" dog will 100% show the way it was intended either. 

I am buying my next dog from a breeder that breeds litters that all could show - some are just a bit better than others. I want the best regardless of showing or pet  

How much is the loss to the breeder?

Stargazer - your smart to discourage the inquiries at people wanting to dabble.....it is much harder then most think. I would LOVE to do it because I know I can care for coat its my job/career that would limit my time and shows are not close to me. 
I interview people with my job and I almost discourage people about the positions before I sell them - I want the BEST people working for our company that are there for the long haul!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

When the time comes for me to get my show puppy I will not settle for a puppy that will be difficult to finish.


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## jonny cash (May 11, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> CM the advice I have been given (and feel comfortable enough to pass on) is to attend EVERY show you can conceivably attend!, meet and speak to every single person you see with a poodle, and find someone who is willing to teach you the things you need to know, that lives relatively close to you
> 
> all of this advice has helped me narrow down my breeder hunt, and my handler hunt for WHEN I get my show puppy
> I know that I have a person who is willing to take the time out of their schedule to help me along and is more than willing to answer my sometimes bothersome questions!


as a relative newbie, i can say this is good advice. the learning curve for showing poodles is steep. it can be hard to find someone who is willing to help. we were blessed to find a breeder who was also willing to be a mentor. this is so much more of a commitment than most people realize, it was for us. the time and cost is something most people are not prepared for.
the show ring is a very cut throat place. it is literally days of preparation, for your couple of minutes in the ring. we have three dogs in coat right now, and it really is like a second job. pro handlers earn their money.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Keith, J.Cash, that is good advice, thanks!  I have only been to one show so far but it was fun! I am definitely going to start going as much as I can. It will be at least a year before I add another puppy but I definitely want to get involved now!

Cash - will you be at the Lake St. Louis show next weekend by any chance? I am thinking of going!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm hooked to them XD
next weekend is a big show in Erie and I'm hoping the weather holds off so I can go >.<


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## jonny cash (May 11, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Keith, J.Cash, that is good advice, thanks!  I have only been to one show so far but it was fun! I am definitely going to start going as much as I can. It will be at least a year before I add another puppy but I definitely want to get involved now!
> 
> Cash - will you be at the Lake St. Louis show next weekend by any chance? I am thinking of going!


CM, we do have a dog entered at Lake St. Louis. I will see you there. It was nice to meet you at Purina.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

I wasn't sure I was really ready to keep coat, etc. So I didn't talk to my breeder about showing until she had selected my puppy for me based on my other priorities (performance). I didn't want to make promises I couldn't keep, and I didn't want her to think I was talking about showing just to get a nicer puppy. I knew I wanted to try handling classes (*great* way to socialize a performance puppy, BTW) and wanted to try keeping coat. One thing led to another, and I finished him (using a handler). I didn't spend anywhere near 5k. 

Lessons? Work with a breeder you like and respect. My breeder gave me helpful advice along the way, and sharing good news with her was part of the fun. Read the standard, and learn to evaluate quality with your own eyes and hands. Be a little sceptical of "show quality" claims about 8 week old puppies--bites can go off, rears can get wonky...there is some luck involved, and it can be nervewracking watching that show prospect go through all sorts of awkward phases. And start with a boy! Boys are easier to finish, and breeders may be more willing to part with a quality boy.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Feralpudel said:


> Be a little sceptical of "show quality" claims about 8 week old puppies--bites can go off, rears can get wonky...there is some luck involved, and it can be nervewracking watching that show prospect go through all sorts of awkward phases.


Exactly. Nothing is 100%. It's a learning experience for a newbie and you really need to be fully invested in it. My hats off to those that do it!!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I remember Cbrand saying that boys were easier to finish! I don't need another bitch in the house anyway! :lol: :lol: 

I do understand that as a newbie I am not likely to end up with a specials quality dog. OR at least, I don't expect a breeder to sell me what they _assess_ at 8 weeks to be specials quality. You never know what will happen as they develop, though!  At the same time, like I said before, I don't want a dog that I am going to struggle to finish.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Feralpudel said:


> Be a little sceptical of "show quality" claims about 8 week old puppies--bites can go off, rears can get wonky...there is some luck involved, and it can be nervewracking watching that show prospect go through all sorts of awkward phases.


Great point! I think even if you're interested in showing, you better make sure the puppy you get meets other criteria such as temperament. Because if their bite goes off at 6 months (like our first home bred puppy's did), then you either have to place the pup, which is tough, or live with it as a pet. And at that point you have to hope it has more going for it than just its looks! Of course an easier guarantee is getting an older puppy, but then most breeders will want to hang onto that pup for themselves if it looks promising.

Showing can be fun, but can also be exasperating (I say this as purely a spectator at many shows while my mom handled). I think it's great that there's so much enthusiasm from you guys, because that will for sure get you through the tough times! Oh and I can't recommend handling class enough, regardless of whether you are going to use a handler or try to finish your pup yourself. It really helps you to understand how to gait a dog and starts to get your pup ready for its dazzling show career!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> You never know what will happen as they develop, though!  At the same time, like I said before, I don't want a dog that I am going to struggle to finish.


this is exactly what I have been told by almost every breeder I have spoken too, Not to accept anything but the best...we're paying the same price and incurring the same costs as someone more experienced why shouldn't we expect to have the best?

and with the way their contracts usually read you MUST finish the dog/bitch in a certain amount of time and if this doesn't happen you could be sued (for a boatload of money...) or worse they can repossess your pet...and though I have a pretty disposable income I would never want to risk a lawsuit because of someone not being 100% confident in my ability or attention span

and I agree with you completely Feralpudel and Cdnjennga, the dog had better have something more than just looks going for it!


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> and with the way their contracts usually read you MUST finish the dog/bitch in a certain amount of time and if this doesn't happen you could be sued (for a boatload of money...)


Contracts vary and are negotiable. I think what is more common is to make breeding rights and/or exclusive ownership contingent on finishing the dog. IMO that is a reasonable and responsible position for a breeder to take.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

I am so happy I live in Europe and don't have to go through the N-American way of showing dogs.

We have no professional handlers here, maybe some who have done well in junior handlers and take on a few extra dogs but none who make a living out of it.

Its so fun to go with your dog in the ring 
And its not coasting a arm and a leg to make a champion.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Winnow said:


> I am so happy I live in Europe and don't have to go through the N-American way of showing dogs.
> 
> We have no professional handlers here, maybe some who have done well in junior handlers and take on a few extra dogs but none who make a living out of it.
> 
> ...


lol I'll be coming to live in Iceland than Disa ;DD


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Feralpudel said:


> Contracts vary and are negotiable. I think what is more common is to make breeding rights and/or exclusive ownership contingent on finishing the dog. IMO that is a reasonable and responsible position for a breeder to take.


for breeding rights absolutely! a breeder should be protecting their lines/business with these contingencies 

but as a newbie coming into the show world, how comfortable would you be asking someone whose willing to give you a chance with their best to change a clause in their contract? 
Sure I (or someone in my position) may be able to ask if its possible to get a different title (obdience, agility, etc) in lieu of a conformation title if its taking to long, but I couldn't imagine asking a breeder to change complete portions of their contracts seeing as I'm coming in as a complete newbie


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## auspoodle (Jan 19, 2011)

Coming from australia, I find it unbelievable that someone would actually sue someone for not finishing a dog?!?! Does that really happen? And what do people sue for??


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I suppose if you sign a legal contract saying you will finish a dog, and then you don't, you could be sued. I don't know how often this happens - maybe someone else can offer some input!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

its in a ton of contracts that I've seen, but I don't think its common practice to actually sue anyone over it
Most breeders wouldn't want to put the buyer in a position where they couldn't uphold their end of the contract by not finishing the dog in a timely manner


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Like Winnow, I find the set up rather strange. Surely finishing the dog is dependent upon the dog being of champion quality, as well as having a determined owner - and that is almost impossible to assess at 8 weeks. I was quite categorical that I would NOT be showing Poppy - but even if I had been determined to hit the circuit, it is so difficult to make a dog up to champion in the UK that it is extremely unusual for a newcomer to showing to get to that level, and I cannot imagine a breeder here making it a condition of ownership (although they definitely try to place their most promising pups in experienced show homes - and will have a waiting list of suitable homes). I gather that it is rather easier in the US?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

fjm said:


> I gather that it is rather easier in the US?


No, I do not believe that to be true.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> No, I do not believe that to be true.


There can only one dog get the CC in the UK and it does not matter if the dog is a champion or not. 

So say that you have a stunning champion and always show it no one else can get the champion certificate.
So yes I would have to agree with fjm that its almost the hardest to get a champion in the UK.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

And you need 3 CCs under 3 different judges ... at least one of which must be when the dog is at last 12 months old. They make it tough in the UK!


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

fjm said:


> And you need 3 CCs under 3 different judges ... at least one of which must be when the dog is at last 12 months old. They make it tough in the UK!


No question there.

At least in the AKC, CKC and FCI you are not competing with champions for the CC or points.


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## Stargazerpoodles (Dec 27, 2010)

There is a difference in finishable vs Pick puppy. As an ethical breeder, I would not sell an inferior puppy to someone to show and finish, I would sell a finishiable puppy, with a show contract, and would be avaliable with contacts to help the newbie, but you would not be getting a pick of the Litter show puppy. Not all puppies are finishiable, nor should all puppies be finished, but getting a breeder that you can trust, and that knows what is finishable or not, is the answer. I would not want someone to be showing an inferior puppy with my name on it in the ring, as what you see in the ring is a reflection of the breeder. On one of my recent litters, I kept 3rd pick show puppy girl, who has now turned out quite nice, has finished her Canadian championship by 7 months, and will be showing in the states in the near future. There are some things I like much better than her better quality sisters, and am quite happy I kept her. Just because you are not getting Pick does not mean it is not finishable, and able to finish quickly. Bad breeders will tell you all the puppies in the litter are finishiable, I disagree. Many of these should not be finished. Your best bet it to find a reputable breeder who you can trust, and who is not kennel blind. I always get other opinions regarding my puppies, from handlers and other breeders, to make sure I am not becoming kennel blind. So far, what I am seeing, is what others, who have no vested interest, are seeing.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

fjm said:


> And you need 3 CCs under 3 different judges ... at least one of which must be when the dog is at last 12 months old. They make it tough in the UK!


I stand corrected


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## Stargazerpoodles (Dec 27, 2010)

I don't know about other breeders, but my show contract for puppies is for breeding purposes. So if you want to breed, you have to show and finish the dog, before I will take my name off. Now, I know that some people will tell you they intend to show, then screw up the coat, and say the dog had bad coat, and they were unable to show it. Then they want you to take your name off, so they can breed. Not going to happen here. I also check references with their handler, to make sure they have contacted the handler, and have set up something with them. I give people a chance, but if they do not forfill their obligation, the dog must be spayed/neutered, returned (I resell dog, they get that price returned), or I would sue for Breach of Contract. I will not force someone to finish a dog, because life happens, but they will not be allowed to use if for breeding.
I expect people to try their best, but if they try and try, and the handler says to cut the dog down, I am willing to reconsider, but it would be on an individual basis. Each of us is resposible for protecting our reputations and lines.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Stargazerpoodles said:


> I don't know about other breeders, but my show contract for puppies is for breeding purposes. So if you want to breed, you have to show and finish the dog, before I will take my name off. Now, I know that some people will tell you they intend to show, then screw up the coat, and say the dog had bad coat, and they were unable to show it. Then they want you to take your name off, so they can breed. Not going to happen here. I also check references with their handler, to make sure they have contacted the handler, and have set up something with them. I give people a chance, but if they do not forfill their obligation, the dog must be spayed/neutered, returned (I resell dog, they get that price returned), or I would sue for Breach of Contract. I will not force someone to finish a dog, because life happens, but they will not be allowed to use if for breeding.
> I expect people to try their best, but if they try and try, and the handler says to cut the dog down, I am willing to reconsider, but it would be on an individual basis. Each of us is resposible for protecting our reputations and lines.


I agree with you...to a point. In my opinion a performance title should be held in very high regard as well. If I sold someone a puppy to breed, I want to see "a title", but it can be in conformation, agility, obedience or the field. So, if it becomes impossible to finish a dog in the conformation ring due to the crazy amount of coat care a Standard show Poodle requires, I would be happy to consider allowing breeding if the owner got a performance title on the dog. Not everyone feels a conformation title is the be all and end all, and not everyone, who might otherwise be incredible owners and proteges, are up for the crazy amount of work it takes to maintain a show coat.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Stargazerpoodles said:


> There is a difference in finishable vs Pick puppy. As an ethical breeder, I would not sell an inferior puppy to someone to show and finish, I would sell a finishiable puppy, with a show contract, and would be avaliable with contacts to help the newbie, but you would not be getting a pick of the Litter show puppy. Not all puppies are finishiable, nor should all puppies be finished, but getting a breeder that you can trust, and that knows what is finishable or not, is the answer. I would not want someone to be showing an inferior puppy with my name on it in the ring, as what you see in the ring is a reflection of the breeder. On one of my recent litters, I kept 3rd pick show puppy girl, who has now turned out quite nice, has finished her Canadian championship by 7 months, and will be showing in the states in the near future. There are some things I like much better than her better quality sisters, and am quite happy I kept her. Just because you are not getting Pick does not mean it is not finishable, and able to finish quickly. Bad breeders will tell you all the puppies in the litter are finishiable, I disagree. Many of these should not be finished. Your best bet it to find a reputable breeder who you can trust, and who is not kennel blind. I always get other opinions regarding my puppies, from handlers and other breeders, to make sure I am not becoming kennel blind. So far, what I am seeing, is what others, who have no vested interest, are seeing.


Maybe I'm just expecting to much, but I personally want the best in everything I do (that sounds a bit more conceited than its intended...) if a breeder were to tell me that I was not getting their pick puppy BECAUSE I was a newbie I would ask for my deposit back and start my hunt for a new breeder....of course I might accept not getting 1st pick if they were trading for a stud fee, or were keeping a pup for themselves, and whatever other situations there may be, but to refuse a pick puppy to go to a newbie simply because they're new at showing doesn't seem like a fair deal to me when as newbies we are paying the same price for the puppy, handler, grooming as an experienced person

Thankfully I have found several breeders of various colours that feel the same way I do and are more than happy to give a newbie a chance
I was told by an experienced show person that I'd be a fool to accept anything but the best when it comes to a puppy or a contract


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I just have one question - *Why "showing" equates "breeding" ???* 

I would perhaps like to show but would NEVER be interested in breeding - just not my kind of fun.

I also do not think that every Ch titled dog needs to necessarily be bred, as I am sure huge % of male spoos is NOT. 

And other way around - sometimes breeders use just pointed bitches in occasional breeding (very rarely, but they do) if that bitch has something special to offer for that particular line. 

If I was a top breeder I would definitely NOT give breeding rights even with a Ch title until dog passes all health tests and in some way "deserves" to be "propagated" :noidea: And I would keep rights to reposes dog if it is ever bred to produce mutts down the line :alberteinstein:


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I would consider letting someone breed based on a performance title, but it would have to be one of the higher titles like a UD, MACH or MH. I have to tell you though, training for a UD is wayyyyyyyy harder than keeping show coat. :amen: I guess what I'm looking for is a commitment to the breed before you breed. If you can go out and put a MH on a Poodle, well then, my hat's off to you.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Carol what would your opinion be on giving a newbie a chance?

I'd like to clarify that when I'm saying newbie I don't mean someone who wants to jump in willy nilly...I have been interested in showing for a year now and I won't be getting my potential show puppy for yet ANOTHER year so I have time to feel out handlers, breeders, and even which colours I prefer, so I wouldn't consider my decision willy nilly XD


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Stargazerpoodles said:


> I would have placed a show puppy in their home, to end up a companion


That statement right there is why I no longer sell "show puppies" and why none of my puppies are ever placed with other breeders, not even the ones I am friendly with. ALL dogs are companions and I think some breeders lose sight of that. The puppy's intended purpose is not to be a show dog who sometimes gets to be a pet. It is a companion/pet who just happens to go to dog shows. I'd rather place the most beautiful best of the best show prospect with a great family with no intention to show and know he had the very best life and was happy than to place it with somebody who was so hell bent on showing that it was "work" and the dog was expected to go out and win ribbons and be treated.... well like a dog I guess. I'd rather see them treated like family members and a lot of show people I've come across over the years don't do that. Not that they don't love their dog's, I'm sure they do, but to they refer to them as "stock" and would rather tell you their pedigree and where the puppy came from and how many points it has than anything really meaningful about the dog. I'm sure everyone who's been around dog shows for any length of time knows people like this. 

I totally can understand though a breeder who is placing show pups who WANTS them finished not wanting to place the best of the best in a home where they are unsure if the owner will commit to showing. I've done that myself. If I happen to have homes who want to show and one home has shown before that's probably where the better puppy is going. However, no way in hell would I place a crummy pup somewhere. I've noticed other breeders doing that and it just makes them look bad because without fail it's the home that got the crappy puppy who trots them to every dog show in the south east trying to put points on it b/c they are supposed to finish it lol. Of course they proudly tell EVERYONE who will listen where they got the dog. 

Personally my contracts, like a couple of others I've seen in this thread are geared towards breeding or in most cases NOT breeding. Dog's who aren't going to be shown are spayed and neutered before I sign off. Dogs who are being shown I remain on the papers until the dog finishes and is spayed/neutered unless some other arrangement has been agreed to. Though like I said I no longer send pups to other breeders as a rule. I would never ever try and sue a buyer because they decided they no longer wanted to show and failed to finish a dog. I find that laughable! I'd never sign a contract giving a breeder that right either. If somebody decides this is to much or they don't enjoy it like they thought they would or for whatever other reason you can think of that they don't want to show the dog then fine, spay/neuter and I'll sign off. No hard feelings. I don't send off the best of the best puppy wise, I keep that for myself and to further the line so it doesn't hurt me or the breed for you not to finish your puppy. I am more concerned with the care and quality of life of the puppies I've bred. If I'm going to try and take legal action against a puppy buyer it would be for a much more serious breach than failing to title a dog. This past year a family we placed a retired CH with about 5 yrs ago split up and she wife took the dogs only to decide she didn't want them. Of course we were willing and making the plans to get the dog back from her and already had it another home waiting. Long story short she told a bunch of lies and got caught after having sold the dog at a yard sale  THAT is something worth taking action over and we did so. We also got the dog back which was really the goal since making sure she was in an appropriate home was the most important thing.


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## Jelena (Aug 20, 2010)

I often wonder how it will be when time comes for getting my spoo, I have show experience with my black mini, I know to grow show coat, I like shows, but I don't want to be a breeder. Nevertheless I am in love with poodles and I want my next poodle to be perfect, I would show her and if she turns out to be great I'd breed her once or twice, but still I wouldn't try to become a professional breeder. Naturally I would consult breeder and other poodle people to which stud should I breed my bitch and so on...

So am I a good choice for a breeder to sell me a very promising pup? What I should do so I could get the white spoo girl from my dreams? Or I could forget it because I don't have breeding ambitions? I think that breeding is in fact about making possible for all to have poodle that suits the standard.

I have two mini boys and I'll have to wait a few years to get my spoo, but I'm trying to be patient, and to chose the best breeder, best parents, and timing in my life for my perfect spoo girl.

But I'm afraid that breeders will look at me as 'not as good' material for their show pup, and that I'll get pet poodle for the huge price - and that's really bothering me.

Not so important now cause I have a lot time until I get more serious in looking for my spoo, but I felt a need to share my concern when I read this thread.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> Carol what would your opinion be on giving a newbie a chance?


I would give a newbie a chance and I have had people approach me. However, I am brutally honest about what it takes. I've had a couple of initial conversations and most people interested in showing bow out when they hear that they need at least $800 worth of equipment to get started. (I do this because I was not given the same courtesy. My breeder sold me a "show dog" without ever telling me what it would take. I initially tried to dry my Poodle with a human hair dryer and clip her with my horse clippers. All while having her stand on my bathroom counter.)

Another problem I have is that I just don't have time to mentor newbie show people. I still have three kids at home, I work, I volunteer extensively, I have to be there to help my pet owners and I have my own dogs to contend with. It makes it hard when newbie show folks can't go to their breeder to get show help.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I would give a newbie a chance and I have had people approach me. However, I am brutally honest about what it takes. I've had a couple of initial conversations and most people interested in showing bow out when they hear that they need at least $800 worth of equipment to get started. (I do this because I was not given the same courtesy. My breeder sold me a "show dog" without ever telling me what it would take. I initially tried to dry my Poodle with a human hair dryer and clip her with my horse clippers. All while having her stand on my bathroom counter.)
> 
> Another problem I have is that I just don't have time to mentor newbie show people. I still have three kids at home, I work, I volunteer extensively, I have to be there to help my pet owners and I have my own dogs to contend with. It makes it hard when newbie show folks can't go to their breeder to get show help.


see I think that honesty is what would make you a good mentor, the people I am considering have gone above and beyond to teach me the things they have been taught which I appreciate immensely...and they for sure don't sugar coat how difficult/expensive showing is

I'm not to concerned about not being given a chance from a good breeder because I'm already talking to those breeders and they would happily give me a chance...its just a matter of timing for myself!

and Jelena I think thats a good question!
I wouldn't necessarily want to be a breeder...but I would sign a breeding/show contract seeing as they are one in the same in most cases, but I wouldn't want to pay for all the health testing if I didn't have any intentions of breeding


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## murieics (May 10, 2009)

It's interesting to me that most contracts that are show contracts are the same as breeding contracts; although, I have seen some where you can keep the dog intact to show, and then must spay/neuter immediately after they have finished. 

At this point in my life, I have no intention of breeding dogs. I don't think I would have the time I would like to commit to it to make it possible. I do think that there are some valid points that have been brought up here, and it really also got me to thinking.

As a breeder, is it really sufficient, in your mind, for someone to get a CH title on a dog (if they are planning to breed a dog)? This seems to be the general consensus I've seen- if you want to breed a dog, you first must get a CH title, and then you are good to go. 

If I were a breeder, (especially if this were someone's first show poodle and they were planning to breed it), I think I would want more than that. Maybe that is having overly high expectations, but it seems to me that if you have deep pockets (and a good/ well-known handler), you could probably finish a dog that maybe shouldn't necessarily be finished. Under most contracts, you would then be free to breed your mediocre-quality dog. In my mind, that doesn't necessarily show your commitment to the breed. Even if it were an amazing quality dog, I feel like it would be better if the dog also had other titles, showing both your commitment to making the breed better, and also showing that the dog is more than just a pretty face. I don't know that it necessarily matters what the title is in- hunting, tracking, obedience, agility, etc. I think it just matters that the dog has something else to recommend it. Is this idea totally far-fetched?

This is something that I've noticed in the amazing breeders I've looked at- breeders like Carol, Allegria, and Bibelot. Their dogs are champions in the conformation ring, but they also do other things- they have dogs participating (and winning!) in other competitions as well.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

*So far there are four people who posted that have same aspiration - to show and not breed .
*
I find it very interesting and I wonder how show breeders look at those "homes" ?

If I was a breeder, I would most definitely give preference to those, since my puppies would go to show ring with people who find that activity being a nice sport and not cut-throat gladiator arena :afraid:. It would also mean that if for whatever reason show carrier of a puppy is not successful, puppy will still have happy and loving home and not immediately be "retired" and "placed" at 7 mos to any available pet-home : (((. 

Also, since "no breeding" would be in a contract from the get go, there would be no worries for original breeder !

I really do not understand in what way it can be a "bad thing" :noidea:


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Hello Stargazer! 

Nice to see you here.

Since I spent the last year fighting tooth and nail learning to owner handle a poodle in AKC Conformation -seeking to finish a red bitch in AKC (we only need 1 major!!!) of all things! this is a thread I get to comment on!

A MENTOR is a must have. I have the BEST! She has taught me, pushed me and been brutally honest with me. She does some of the best grooming you will ever see and when she handles a dog in the ring, it is trained and she presents it beautifully. I've watched others with their "mentors" and it makes me so much more thankful for Michele. She has been willing to teach me and show me, during the past year, what it would have taken years to learn just "hanging around" many other handlers and "mentors" and breeders. Really, there is lip service to the word and then there is the occasional person who will truly take you under their wing and teach you. (On the other hand, I have given my absolute dedication to learning the breed and my energy and huge chunks of time to learning to care for and grow coat. The financial investment hasnt' been something I backed away from, either).


I was offered several show contracts on 2nd or 3rd or even 4th puppy pick. That was starting out. I would pay to finish and all testing etc. But never pick. Some contracts even wanted pick back from my first breeding. Then I started having success as an owner handler and the "offers" started changing. Now every breeder's pick is not the same - some pick based on movement and some pick stacked -and there are always type preferences - but I think to expect first pick of any litter, before proving yourself is a bit optimistic. I've tried to say this in a nice way and not be discouraging. Like Stargazer said, ease of finish might be the best way to explain.


Now, I am waiting on the arrival of my first litter and I have been pretty mortified by the people who have contacted me expecting a "show pup" to be available or just a "companion" but they would like the pup left intact - "just in case they might want to breed to re-coup their money". So far, I hope that I have been able to adequately express the time and money that showing a pup in the AKC is going to require and to do that in a nice way.


I do wonder, if at some point I'll become frustrated trying to offer breed education to those who I really feel have invested no more than a thought that they could make a dollar by breeding a red - and one from my line that I have shed blood and tears to first finish and then breed to improve. 


Also, I find that I am somewhat offended by the gimmick ads placed by bybs about show quality pups for sale. Really, if it is show quality how about you show it? or be certain to place it on a co -own in a show home! Ooh! and "Ch Lines" - say at least one in 5 generations :ahhhhh: At least on this forum so many are willing to address gimmick selling - I've decided to add a link to PF on my contacts page! Ya'll say it nice, then when people don't get it, ya'll say it not so nice! :amen:


Tabatha

PS As a competitor and a breeder (soon to officially be) I do want my animals titled in multiple venues. Marques, my pet is has a CGC and TDI certification. Annie when she completes her CH will get her CGC and a Coursing title. I'll have to see what "fits" B - other than her seeming desire to join Ringling Bros and dance on her back legs! It's my opinion that titling in areas beyond conformation shows that not only do our lines have correct conformation and movement but also the altheticism and intelligence our poodles have.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

good post Tabatha!!!

I can see both sides... I can see the reasoning behind wanting to have 1st pick of the litter to show; I mean you don't want to start with anything less than the best you can get; of course! But I can also see from a breeders perspective, if there are two people wanting the pick of the litter, and one has proven their ability in growing and maintaining the coat, and showing and finishing a dog, compared to someone who while being involved in the breed as best they can and truely being totally keen and into it... I'd still be liable to send the pick puppy to the proven person if I really wanted the dog to be finished.

Now, if it didn't matter to me if the pup was to be finished (ie it wasn't to be bred and I wanted nothing back from it) then I'd probably be more open to the newbie in having the pick of the litter. Then if it DIDN'T finish, for _whatever_ reason, it was of no loss to me or my breeding program cos I'd know it was in a great home regardless.

But if it mattered to me to have my pick puppy finish, I'd want to hedge my bets with a proven owner.

In saying that, if I bred a litter, it'd be because I wanted a puppy out of it, to be finished and be bred from to continue my line. Therefore the pick of the litter would certainly not be going to a newbie show person, no matter what they proved to me with words; my line would be worth much more to me than risking that.



However MY pick of the litter may differ from someone elses! And just because it's not the pick, doesn't mean it's a whole heap worse, and infact it's likely to have better features in some ways than the pick... I don't see it being a big deal to get 2nd or 3rd pick from a QUALITY litter if the breeder really wants their first pick finished, then I'll prove myself to them with their 2nd pick. lol


Though it's also probable that with already having experience with growing hair, and handling dogs in the show ring, that I could be offered a better pick! Sooooo, anyone wanting to get into it; grow coat on your dog now! Prove it! And get to shows and meet people from other breeds, and perhaps get a chance to handle an easier breed in the class levels to get ring experience! You never know where it'll lead.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I actually absolutely agree about "first pick" LOL 

I know of litters where 3 or 4 puppies got Ch title in no time :act-up: . When litter is of high quality it yields more than one show puppy :first: 

I also would not dream showing a spoo MYSELF LOL, (except UKC), I was talking about people who would consider showing with professional handler on the other side of the lead .

*Tabatha* - thanks for pointing out the latest "trend" with advertising of "show" puppies and Ch lines and titles !!!! I wanted to make a new thread about that but thought that probably people do get that it is a hoax.... but maybe not..hmmmm. 

Also, I agree with getting additional titles on show dogs - it is absolutely ideal scenario :amen:


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

NOLA Standards said:


> but I think to expect first pick of any litter, before proving yourself is a bit optimistic. I've tried to say this in a nice way and not be discouraging. Like Stargazer said, ease of finish might be the best way to explain.


Tab you are 100% correct I just got to this thread and I have been telling newbies that they will not get pick of a litter with out proving themselves. I have been trying to get a show amstaff and all the puppies I want I can not have ! not because I didn't prove my self its because the breeder or breeders friends get pick puppy. Out of all my years of going to shows and talking to breeders I have yet to see a newbie getting pick litter. I am shocked that some think this will happen...... When I have my first Litter I am not giving my pick to a newbie infact my pick puppy will be given away near free to a friend  If this friend wants it hahahaha 






> Also, I find that I am somewhat offended by the gimmick ads placed by bybs about show quality pups for sale. Really, if it is show quality how about you show it? or be certain to place it on a co -own in a show home! Ooh! and "Ch Lines" - say at least one in 5 generations :ahhhhh: At least on this forum so many are willing to address gimmick selling - I've decided to add a link to PF on my contacts page! Ya'll say it nice, then when people don't get it, ya'll say it not so nice! :amen:


Again I agree I am really sick of some breeders saying they have show quality puppies when their dogs literally look like a train wreck! I was sent some pictures of a black show puppy to evaluate and this dog was clearly a pet. I also find it crazy that some breeders say show quality and never shown any of their breeding stock or even go to shows for that matter.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Not to mention that most of the breeders I know breed for THEIR next show dog. This means that at best, you are going to get 2nd pick behind the breeder.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

wishpoo said:


> I also would not dream showing a spoo MYSELF LOL, (except UKC), I was talking about people who would consider showing with professional handler on the other side of the lead


LOL Yes its hard doing owner handler ! We are looking for a handler for Enzo as we speak ! :adore: to Tab for almost finishing her red bitch owner handler !


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Not to mention that most of the breeders I know breed for THEIR next show dog. This means that at best, you are going to get 2nd pick behind the breeder.


Exactly Cbrand ! This is why the breeder is breeding a litter ...... ( well a reputable breeder any ways )


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Not to mention that most of the breeders I know breed for THEIR next show dog. This means that at best, you are going to get 2nd pick behind the breeder.


THIS is absolutely true. I think though, that for someone like Keith, who has been doing his homework for over a year, he realizes that the breeder will likely keep the pick pup for themselves. But truthfully, what may be my pick may not be someone else's for whatever reason. Just like judges...some are freaks for a great head, some favour an incredible rear, some look for remarkable movement, some want it all...specific breeders will see something that turns their crank that another breeder might not find as important. There might be something in the breeder's second or third choice pup that totally does it for them.


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## Stargazerpoodles (Dec 27, 2010)

Conformation showing is for Breeding stock. Now, many people just look at it as another competition, which is fine, but look up the reason they started conformation. Now, I have bred non-champion poodles, as long as they have completed all their testing, and come from good lines that are compatable lines, but I refuse to breed just to make puppies. The goal is to improve, not just making puppies so someone can advertize they have champion bloodlines and ask a higher price. I also have no problem breeding to working lines, ie obedience/agility/field. I think all have something to offer, which is why I also get working titles on my conformation Champions. 

I agree that I would never sue is someone could not finish a dog. Life happens, and circumstances change, however, I would be in court so fast your head would spin if I found out they started breeding that dog without my permission or knowledge. I have seen this happen, and my contract notifies them what will happen. If someone decides they cannot finish the dog, they need to spay/neuter, and just enjoy the dog.

Think about this, if a person came to you, said all the right things, gave references and such, and said they wanted to show the puppy, so you sell them a nice finishable puppy to start them out. Well the time comes to start showing the puppy, and you hear nothing, you contact the handler they said they were going to use, and they have heard nothing. Then, time passes, and you finally get in touch with them. They say the dog matted, and they had to cut it down, so they decided after talking with the handler, that it cost too much, and would take too much time, and they decided they could not get into showing, and decided not to show they dog, but they really loved it and decided to keep it as a pet. (Fast forward 1 year) you find out from others in the breed that they heard of a litter of puppies out of your line for sale in the paper, and upon some sneeky work, you find out these people you allowed to have a nice finishable puppy are now breeding it. Sue or not sue? Now, if you have not put stipulations into your contract, you may be out of luck in court, because they want everything in writing, not that you assumed the people would be honest and do what you thought was the right thing to do. I know this situation has happened for real, and my contract will stand as is, to protect my dogs and reputation. My contract also states that I will get the dog back.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

exactly what Cherie said (thank you <3) 
I would never expect a breeder to give me their pick if they intend to keep it, I would never expect a breeder to give me first pick if the stud owner wants 1st, I would never expect 1st pick if the breeder had someone on the list before me...but to not give me or another newbie first pick BECAUSE we're newbies is condescending and I wouldn't use that breeder no matter if they were breeding pure gold...

I have been told by a VERY reputable breeder that all I have to do is ask and I can have a puppy...BUT I feel right now is not the right time for a puppy so I have to pass (drives me bonkers >.<)
in fact hes the one who has basically convinced me that I will not settle for anything!

and I have no intentions of owner handling...I'd like to try it maybe, but I want my dog to finish in a timely manner and I know what that takes, so I'll gladly higher a professional handler from my area (which there are many amazing ones)

______

and stargazer I get exactly what you're saying, but I personally don't want to be a breeder anytime soon...so if the breeder wanted to co-own my dog for their breeding purposes I would be all right with that


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## Stargazerpoodles (Dec 27, 2010)

I find it interesting that several people have said that given an experienced show client or a newbie, that they would place the pup with the experienced client. Everyone wants the best, but there is only going to be one. However, that doesn't mean that the second or third are not of almost equal quality, if it is a really nice litter. It may only be the color of the nails, or a better eye that is the difference. 

Keith- does this mean that you would pass on another finishable puppy or not, because it was not the pick?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Stargazer, to put it simply yes I would take another finishable puppy that isn't the pick...BUT if a breeder tells me flat and out that I was being given less than 2nd (or 3rd or whatever) because of my not ever owning a show dog before I would walk away and look in another direction for a breeder.

I understand wanting your dogs to go into experienced homes, so if theres another show home available I'd be fine with them getting the pick before me...I just wouldn't want to be given something unusable, so I'd plan on asking the opinion of the puppy from many people I trust (breeders, handlers, etc)


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Stargazerpoodles said:


> I find it interesting that several people have said that given an experienced show client or a newbie, that they would place the pup with the experienced client. Everyone wants the best, but there is only going to be one. However, that doesn't mean that the second or third are not of almost equal quality, if it is a really nice litter. It may only be the color of the nails, or a better eye that is the difference.
> 
> Keith- does this mean that you would pass on another finishable puppy or not, because it was not the pick?


I think what a lot of people forget is that all of the pups in a litter come from the same gene pool. So, if we are talking only about showing, of course one would want to go with the pup who has the perfect head, best topline, ultimate layback of shoulder, etc. but if we are talking about breeding, the pups from that litter will most likely produce similar quality puppies to some degree, because they are from the same gene pool. So, based on that, second or third choice of litter would not bother me unless there was something glaringly wrong with those pups, and my intent was to show.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

.


> (Fast forward 1 year) you find out from others in the breed that they heard of a litter of puppies out of your line for sale in the paper, and upon some sneeky work, you find out these people you allowed to have a nice finishable puppy are now breeding it. Sue or not sue? Now, if you have not put stipulations into your contract, you may be out of luck in court, because they want everything in writing, not that you assumed the people would be honest and do what you thought was the right thing to do. I know this situation has happened for real, and my contract will stand as is, to protect my dogs and reputation. My contract also states that I will get the dog back.
> Stargazerpoodles is offline Reply With Quote


I certainly never looked into show contracts but would assume that it is very clearly stipulated that any breeding rights are in a strict connection with obtaining Ch title and passing health tests at 2 years of age. I would also expect a breeder to limit breeding of a bitch to only Ch titled Studs and other way around , unless written change in a contract is made. 

Am I wrong :afraid: ??? I never thought show contracts are so "loose" :angry:. I mean, than they are less restrictive than simple pet contract and I can see why they can easily be abused and lines "used" :noidea: That is just terrible ... 

Actually I always wondered how the heck a dog from famous show line ends up in BY, but now I know :ahhhhh:


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## BigDog (Dec 14, 2010)

WonderPup said:


> That statement right there is why I no longer sell "show puppies" and why none of my puppies are ever placed with other breeders, not even the ones I am friendly with. ALL dogs are companions and I think some breeders lose sight of that. The puppy's intended purpose is not to be a show dog who sometimes gets to be a pet. It is a companion/pet who just happens to go to dog shows.


Amen!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

"That statement right there is why I no longer sell "show puppies" and why none of my puppies are ever placed with other breeders, not even the ones I am friendly with. ALL dogs are companions and I think some breeders lose sight of that. The puppy's intended purpose is not to be a show dog who sometimes gets to be a pet. It is a companion/pet who just happens to go to dog shows. I'd rather place the most beautiful best of the best show prospect with a great family with no intention to show and know he had the very best life and was happy than to place it with somebody who was so hell bent on showing that it was "work" and the dog was expected to go out and win ribbons and be treated.... well like a dog I guess. I'd rather see them treated like family members and a lot of show people I've come across over the years don't do that. Not that they don't love their dog's, I'm sure they do, but to they refer to them as "stock" and would rather tell you their pedigree and where the puppy came from and how many points it has than anything really meaningful about the dog. I'm sure everyone who's been around dog shows for any length of time knows people like this."

Wonderpup...I just wanted to say how much I love and appreciate this paragraph. I could not agree more. I WILL place a puppy in a show home, but only if they allow the dog to live the way we let Quincy live. This IS my mantra...dog first, show dog second. I have been told he needs to be kept away from the other dogs. Ummmmm...NO! If he cannot play with his housemates and enjoy his world, I would rather clip him off and not show him. We have worked things out so he can play with everyone and they all understand when it is getting out of control and I tell them to stop, they stop. But, he is the dog he is because he loves and enjoys everything, and titling him does not mean so much to me that I will change his life to accomplish it. Thanks for your rationale.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

That is so very true, WonderPup and ASP. I got talking to a woman at one of the few shows I have been to who was very disgruntled at having been sold an oversize papillon pup, that she was clearly on the way to thoroughly disliking simply because the poor dog was unlikely to star in the ring. (Just how a supposedly experienced show dog owner was talked into buying a pup without even seeing the mother was a question I was too polite to ask!) I made helpful noises about how I was sure it was a lovely dog, and perhaps would excel at agility - but she was having none of it. I quietly slipped away - but it left me feeling very uncomfortable about getting involved in the whole show scene.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I think what a lot of people forget is that all of the pups in a litter come from the same gene pool. So, if we are talking only about showing, of course one would want to go with the pup who has the perfect head, best topline, ultimate layback of shoulder, etc. but if we are talking about breeding, the pups from that litter will most likely produce similar quality puppies to some degree, because they are from the same gene pool. So, based on that, second or third choice of litter would not bother me unless there was something glaringly wrong with those pups, and my intent was to show.



Oh, I don't think this is true. While dogs may come from the same pedigree, each is a unique combination of genes that create specific characteristics. It has not been my experience that each puppy in the litter produces similar puppies (unless the line is heavily linebred). I find that as they are bred forward, they tend to pass along their individual characteristics.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Oh, I don't think this is true. While dogs may come from the same pedigree, each is a unique combination of genes that create specific characteristics. It has not been my experience that each puppy in the litter produces similar puppies (unless the line is heavily linebred). I find that as they are bred forward, they tend to pass along their individual characteristics.


While I agree this CAN happen, I do not see it as the norm. I look at my own human family. All of the cousins on one side bear a striking resemblance to one another. Their kids have something about them where you look at them and know there is a familial connection. They are certainly not identical, but they have brought something to the gene pool that makes them somehow similar in appearance. My own female cousins, all from different parents are extremely tall for women. We all range from 5'11" to 6'3". The gene pool we all derived from obviously brought the height to the table. And there is no linebreeding or inbreeding. So if the right mate is chosen, or gene is strong enough, you can see similarities in a lot of the relatives, human or canine.


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## pap2labc (Jun 25, 2010)

While my poodle isn't destined for the show ring (he's a champion lap dog) I love the relationship I have with my PON breeder. I never met her in person but we talked extensively. I explained what I was looking for and she chose the puppy that best fit my situation. My contract was straight forward and because she was a show prospect that would stay intact, the only stipulation was that I co-owned her. However, I didn't HAVE to show or finish her. I didn't HAVE to breed her. They had the bloodlines and kept her sister so they were fine with that. She didn't go into the ring until this last November at 5 years old and now has 12 points, needing only a major to finish. Yeah!! I've shaved her down completely 3 times in the last few years and her breeders never minded. They are pleased that she's doing well in the ring but they are happiest that she's a beloved member of our family. I love their philosophy!


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

I have to agree with CBrand, though I am speaking specifically about color litters. 

Show quality red pups are so few and far between that when you really have one you just gotta finish it - and then finishing will still be harder for you than a black or white. (Also, I am speaking of AKC, not UKC as we have already established the conformation difference is drastic. Not intending to start that debate again).

Antoinette was pick of 3 - count em 3! large litters (7 pups, 9 pups and 11 pups). B was pick of 2. (Don't freak about the litters- I waited almost 2 years for Annie) I didn't see any other pups in the litters I would have attempted to finish in AKC and Kay has some really nice characteristics in her line. Reds aren't there and aren't going to be there until we suck it up and outcross for some conformation, then come back to our color. I hate to say it, and fought saying it for the longest. The fact is there are some red lines that are nicer than others, certainly, but compare them to top blacks or whites and the difference is glaring. (The following has been an editorial...)


Keep in mind I am hoping and praying I get 2 (please please give me 2!)awesome pups out of my Ruby x Carter litter but that breeding is an unfinished red bitch (who has produced some lovely pups though to say show quality is by 99% going too far) to a multiple BIS and BISS male and have only the slightest hope of my picks being color. If I had bred back into red, my chances of a true show pup would be slim and none. And because it's an outcross - even though I know the stud to be dominant in reproducing - the chances of the pups being uniform are again - slim and none.

Now that I dropped that lead balloon. Cross your fingers for me and say clean head, long neck, great carriage and rear angulation.

That's not too much to ask for!

Tabatha

PS Another note about "Pick". Per Carter's stud contract all pups that are not kept by me MUST be placed in pet homes - Spay/Neuter is MANDATORY. This is because, even though I have proven myself (kind of - still need a major to finish my bitch) the owner of a stud such as Carter wants a degree of control over the homes/situations her line would be going into. Something I discovered is thar some intact animals out there were NEVER intended by the stud owner (at least) to be out there intact - "show" home or not.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted by ArreauStandardPoodle
> I think what a lot of people forget is that all of the pups in a litter come from the same gene pool. So, if we are talking only about showing, of course one would want to go with the pup who has the perfect head, best topline, ultimate layback of shoulder, etc. but if we are talking about breeding, the pups from that litter will most likely produce similar quality puppies to some degree, because they are from the same gene pool. So, based on that, second or third choice of litter would not bother me unless there was something glaringly wrong with those pups, and my intent was to show


I don't agree either what you are saying is definately not true. If this was true then there would be more Top dogs produce than pet quality ones. what you said about your family could mean anything there could be inbreeding way way way back 100's of years ago how do you know ? When people live in small groups in a location inbreeding does occur but no one wants to talk about it because they think hill billies or hicks .... It happens all the time ! Cousins marrying cousins is not uncommon back in the day also. 

I have never had sibling cats have litters who looked the same even with the same stud. It all depends like cbrand said if the animal is inbred or not. I have had one litter where all the kittens had perfect tail lengths and all looked alike because they where inbred or linebred all of the lower coi litters all looked different. 

And also 

I still do not get why you believe all show dogs are treated so badly!?!?! or that all show breeders are crazy for ribbons and think of them as "stock" ?this is really insulting to all the breeder who actually care for their dogs take the time to put titles on their dog ( which is not EASY working titles also). It is very easy just to breed dogs for pets and companions only though .....


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> this is really insulting to all the breeder who actually care for their dogs take the time to put titles on their dog ( which is not EASY working titles also). It is very easy just to breed dogs for pets and companions only though .....


...well I don't think her views on showing matters when speaking of her caring for her dogs...that was just rude Roxy implying someone doesn't care for their dog with no proof or evidence is ridiculous 
this thread was about newbies showing...perhaps we should stay on topic

so staying on the right path
If a newbie is offered a puppy from a very reputable breeder and the timing isn't perfect...should they take the chance?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

still do not get why you believe all show dogs are treated so badly!?!?! or that all show breeders are crazy for ribbons and think of them as "stock" ?this is really insulting to all the breeder who actually care for their dogs take the time to put titles on their dog ( which is not EASY working titles also). It is very easy just to breed dogs for pets and companions only though .....
_________

First of all, I did not say that...do NOT put words in my mouth, thank you!!! Go back and read what I said. I am not going to play this game with you anymore. You contradict every single thing I say whether you agree with it or not.

And thank you. I am showing now, so I guess that puts me in the "good" breeder club according to the likes of you! I have a lot of breeder friends who raise their dogs the way I like to see, so would not insult my own friends. But if you are naive enough to think ALL show dogs have cushy, pleasant life where they can act like dogs, and live in someone's home...well more power to you!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I don't agree either what you are saying is definately not true. If this was true then there would be more Top dogs produce than pet quality ones. what you said about your family could mean anything there could be inbreeding way way way back 100's of years ago how do you know ? When people live in small groups in a location inbreeding does occur but no one wants to talk about it because they think hill billies or hicks .... It happens all the time ! Cousins marrying cousins is not uncommon back in the day also.
> 
> I have never had sibling cats have litters who looked the same even with the same stud. It all depends like cbrand said if the animal is inbred or not. I have had one litter where all the kittens had perfect tail lengths and all looked alike because they where inbred or linebred all of the lower coi litters all looked different.
> 
> ...


Oh, and by the way...our family was scattered all over Ontario. I am pretty sure there was no inbreeding. Disappointing huh?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> If a newbie is offered a puppy from a very reputable breeder and the timing isn't perfect...should they take the chance?


How good is the puppy? If something spectacular were to fall into your lap, you might not get the same chance again.


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## jonny cash (May 11, 2010)

cbrand said:


> How good is the puppy? If something spectacular were to fall into your lap, you might not get the same chance again.


what she said. this is basically how it happened for us. it is hard to get really good breeder's to take a chance on a newbie. even after you get a nice dog, it is up to you to make sure that the dog fulfills all the promise that it showed as a puppy. our mentor took a chance with us, and we have tried to do everything expected and then some. she has opened so many doors for us. i never magined we could have come this far this quickly. in getting that first dog finished, watchng, showing, and learning, we have had even more doors opened. i hope we can do the same for somebody in the future


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Johnny Cash - 

Hate that I missed you in Starkville. Keith and Michele and I were all entered (even though Aiden would have been a move up) but Keith and I got caught in the snow/ice storm leaving the Dallas show the weekend before so we didnt' get home til mid week and Michele was in Atlanta snowed/iced in the week prior, too.

NOT supposed to happen in the South!

Hope to meet you at another show!

Tabatha


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## jonny cash (May 11, 2010)

I was really looking forward to meeting you. We went south looking for warm weather, there was more snow there than Illinois! I am sure we will cross paths somewhere.


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## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

*What about this scenario?*

I know of a highly respected breeder of another breed who places some of her dogs and bitches in homes that love the breed, do competitive things like agility,obedience an therapy. The dogs live with these people and belong to both the breeder and the person. When it's time for the dog to be bred, if it's a female, she either goes back to the breeder for whelping till the pups are ready to be sold or in some cases the family the dog lives with whelps the pups...in homes that are experienced in pups....but the puppies they are the breeders pups. I have thought this is a wonderful way for a family to have a beautiful, sound champion, that lives in a home where the dog is a family member..like all our dogs are here. But it also allows the breeder to continue (and have control over) their lines. if there is a spectacular dog that gets a ch title why would a breeder want to offer a spay contract in that situation? Now, not many people can whelp a litter and socialize pups, but many people could provide a great home for a spectacular dog, and allow the breeder (who knows what they are doing) decide on future breeding..and make all decisions regarding breeding. I personally think we have too many breeders...certainly not everyone should be a breeder. I think the reason at least 4 people say here that they would want a dog that is "pick" but that they dont want to breed...is more that they want a beautiful, sound, perfect dog and the best chance of getting this is to get first, second or some breeder pick of the litter. But most breeders breed to better their limes and to carry on their lines so they don't want to let go of their best (of course). I think placing your best picks in loving, knowledgeable, families to live,while the breeder maintains the breeding rites or decisions is a fantastic idea. The reason I got a retired champion that was 7 years old is because i couldnt imagine anyone reputable selling me a quality young champion since i didn't know anyone in the poodle world. When I get another poodle I hope to find a breeder who will let me co-own a bitch...share in the financial cost to finish her...I see myself taking handling classes with the dog, for socializing and to help with training for the ring....but using a top notch handler to finish her quickly, so she can come back home FAST...then when and if she is to be bred, she would live with the breeder for whelping. Obviously this takes a lot of trust...but with all the contact people have here on the net..I would think this would be great for some folks. Whew...this post was not succinct in any way...sorry for that!
I do have a groomer friend here who has some of Stella's offspring and has put titles on poodles before. We have talked about such a possibility. She would do the grooming each week. What do other breeders think about such a situation?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

that actually sounds like an ideal situation for me Ms Stella!
I do not have the time or patience to raise a litter of puppies at 19, I do have time to raise a dog and manage a coat but with a crazy work schedule and even crazier class schedule I know that I wouldn't be able to devote enough time to a litter for quite sometime

but if the breeder were willing to whelp the litter I could see myself wanting to breed at some point.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

I am hoping for a quality home like that for a Ruby pup and an Antoinette pup (when the time comes). But, realistically, they are so few and far between. Show coat care is a time consuming beast. It has to become something you love and enjoy doing with your dog.

Also, despite the fact that Antoinette sleeps on my head and rules the house in general, I do have to constantly watch her and B and Marques. They do get to play, but have been trained since babies to "no bite" and still Marques would like nothing more than to pin one of those little witches down and give them some payback :aetsch:

If you are going to have coat, they can't play with each other - really ever - unsupervised (think bad children) and that is a lot to ask of someone. Kiddie gates everywhere. If the home they were going into is a single pet home, there would still be changes (no petting on the head and no doggie doors (rubs the coat). 

So, for me, I have someone in mind...but I don't think they know they are in mind - hee - or if they will really want to take on the challenge of a new pup kept in show coat when it comes time.


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## Stargazerpoodles (Dec 27, 2010)

It is a challange, even for experenced "show" homes. I look back at when I started and try to explain to new people who think they want to show, that this is a labor of Love. Now, puppy coat is much easier to deal with, but then coat change happens, and all the fustration you deal with, when they mat overnight. You spend hours getting all these mats out, trying not to loose coat. I explain that there are weekly baths, 3-4 hours drying time, grooming time, ect. I agree with cbrand about the initial expense for equipment for doing a proper job. When I first started out, I used a small card table. Then you have the trips to the dog shows to watch and get to know some of the people showing dogs. Handlers: who can you trust to be honest about the quality of your dog or about how long it will take to finish them. Are the handlers also breeders, who will finish their dogs on your points. Have seen this happen time and again. Money, money, money out the pocket, with nothing coming in, and then you may not even have an opportunity to breed your dog. Yes, its easier to finish a male, but finished males are a dime a dozen, so you may be investing for nothing other than a title. This I tell clients, as sometimes they think that if they have a finished male, people will be knocking down their door. I will be honest with my client, Why not get performance titles on your dog, enjoy the special relationship you develop in the training, and enjoy just allowing them to be a loving part of the family, even get the kids in on some of the training. 

I look at conformation showing like I would look at any competetive sport. There is dishonesty, greed, backstabbing, and unfairness played the higher up you get. The more you win, the more people talk negatively about you or your dog. I believe the reason for this is that there is money involved. Like any sport, if you cannot play the game, you need to stay out. I have seen too many nice people talk about unfair judging, and not understanding what happened in the ring. They just shake their heads when it is explained. I know this sounds harsh, but it is the reality and I would perfer that newbies understand what is happening, so they do not get discouraged or hurt feelings, when their think their dog is the best, and have someone standing ringside say it is a piece of c___. I used to laugh, and ask what does that make their dog, since mine beat theirs. 

Weather you get 1st, 2nd, or 3rd pick, new people should be allowed to understand the truth, the breeder should not sell them a puppy with the intent to have " another" champion get, when the new person does not understand what it is going to take to show and finish the dog. Most dogs can finish, depends on who your handler is and how much you are willing to spend.

Nola- did you really understand what you know now? I know Michele is brutally honest, and told you much of what you know now. But did you realize how difficult it really was going to be, especially with a red. I heard you were quite surprised to go to the Mississippi show, and find out who you were competing against- Top handlers.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Maybe it is our area (or maybe it is just because my bitch won) but I think the judging is pretty fair. Most of the time I am not surprised by what the judge puts up.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Well I'll say I didn't know then what I know now! :alberteinstein: And there certainly have been a few times I have been really discouraged, but I am hard to stop - heehee - and I truly love the breed, so this journey for me has been an education, not so much an obstacle, and I have NEVER "counted the cost". If Michele said I needed it I went out and got it. My first entire year I drove Antoinette to Michele before each show for grooming - New Orleans to Atlanta - and then to the show - wherever it was. Can't question my dedication. (Possibly that dedication (craziness!) is how I have gained the acceptance we now have in what is a really tough world)

I guess my biggest criticism - and we were talking about this last night at dinner - was that I really felt unwelcome - wow - for most of a year. Part of that certainly was because I had a red standard. What most people had seen out of reds I was unaware of, and kept scratching my head wondering what the problem was. Early on so many seemed suprised by Antoinette's carriage or feet or tailset or pigment (I remember one time Miyuko rubbing Annie's rear really hard with her thumb and then holding it up to everyone in the set up and saying loudly - IT IS REAL!"). Almost certainly I would have been more welcome and my path easier starting with a CH breeding pup on a co-own from a show breeder. Not my choice. I love the color and believe I truly understand what they are lacking and am dedicated to improving the great foundation I have started with.


It's nice, too, that the past 2 judges who have put her up, have been encouraging, talking with me about my breeding plans and where I want to go with my foundation, recognizing what I need to improve, being complimentary about what I have, and both saying they are very happy to see someone willing to agressively promote the color in the ring.

As far as the top handlers, and shows where they are... I'm a pretty smart girl, even if I am patting my own back  and it makes zero sense for me to believe I can go in the ring and beat the best. I look at it like this...I have a career and I'm very good at what I do. Certainly someone not in my industry could do what I do, but it would take them longer and they would work much harder and their end result is likely not to be as "good/clean" as mine. When I show, I can (usually) beat other owner handlers and even non poodle handlers, but there is no way I think I'm going in the ring against my mentor and really have a chance in hell against her. She's going to outgroom me, outpresent me and generally out handle me. I might even have a "better" animal, but we are at a dog SHOW and SHOWING off the dog is part of the deal. Oooh! and I hate! loosing, so I really try to skip the shows that are going to feature Michele, Betty, Chris, Kay, Miyuke, Sharon et al (OMG and all in one place - Jackson was like a Regional!)

On the other hand... I need majors (well now I need only one!). And that's why, even though I managed the singles, I don't feel - at this point at least - that I can tackle the majors. (We can take this up again in a few years.) So Annie is with a handler. 

Michele is working with me and B for the National. We believe B will make even more waves than Annie did, and you know Michele. We are training and Michele has that coat looking like velvet, fussing about the neck hair and how I need more every time she talks to me! Gotta Love her!

Tabatha


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

*


auspoodle said:



Coming from australia, I find it unbelievable that someone would actually sue someone for not finishing a dog?!?! Does that really happen? And what do people sue for??

Click to expand...

*Absolute NONSENSE, I have never heard of this in my entire time in poodles and I have been actively showing now for 19 years.

I have purchased show prospects in past from 4 different reputable top notch breeders in the U.S. and NEVER was I verbally threatened that if I do not finish the dog I would be sued.

LOL I would run away from a breeder who makes this stipulation as far as my legs can afford to take me.

A breeder who makes such a stipulation and follows it up with a THREAT has no business being a breeder let alone selling SHOW prospects or what THEY believe are show prospects.

Who is it that said they know breeder who make these sort of demands on a prospective show client.. WAS IT YOU KEITH ??

I have NO idea which breeder (s) you have met that specifies this LUDICROUS clause and its RAMIFICATIONS into their contract but I am willing to bet that they are not playing with a full deck to begin with.

Its like saying do NOT x-ray your dog for hip dysplasia because I am sure he will never come down with it..

Same goes for a show prospect, HOW can a breeder who has knowledge of the breed and experience as an exhibitor make such statements that the puppy they sell will 100% turn to be a top show quality puppy.

We hope when we sell a show prospect that they do turn out at 8 mos. what we have seen them look like at 8 weeks but there is never a guarantee and if a show breeder smacks a client with a MUST SHOW THE DOG OR ELSE YOU WILL BE SUED, OH well... than I feel sorry for any newbie or wannabe or breeder who will succumb to deal with such a ludcirous person and worse buy a puppy from them. Oh well... :-(


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

What an interesting thread. It makes me want to steer clear away from AKC showing.  I used to show boxers AKC a long time ago. I even bred a couple of nice litters. I got a handler once or twice, but usually showed my own dogs. I have enjoyed and followed dog shows since and appreciate a nice dog as much as the next person. The trouble with poodles and the AKC is outlined heavily throughout this thread. You have to have a strong stomach, a lot of cash, an excellent dog and a strong drive to show a poodle AKC. Maybe the UKC dogs don't all have as good of confirmation as an AKC show poodle, but an awful lot of them do. There is a much broader range of poodles in UKC, which is fun. I am tentatively planning on showing my puppy UKC. I think she is pretty and sparkley. 

You can not know how good a puppy is until they are mostly grown. Some look really nice as an older puppy and then not as nice as an adult. You just can not always tell who is show quality and who is not without keeping the whole darned litter and who can do that?


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

outwest said:


> What an interesting thread. It makes me want to steer clear away from AKC showing.  I used to show boxers AKC a long time ago. I even bred a couple of nice litters. I got a handler once or twice, but usually showed my own dogs. I have enjoyed and followed dog shows since and appreciate a nice dog as much as the next person. The trouble with poodles and the AKC is outlined heavily throughout this thread. You have to have a strong stomach, a lot of cash, an excellent dog and a strong drive to show a poodle AKC. Maybe the UKC dogs don't all have as good of confirmation as an AKC show poodle, but an awful lot of them do. There is a much broader range of poodles in UKC, which is fun. I am tentatively planning on showing my puppy UKC. I think she is pretty and sparkley.
> 
> *You can not know how good a puppy is until they are mostly grown. Some look really nice as an older puppy and then not as nice as an adult. You just can not always tell who is show quality and who is not without keeping the whole darned litter and who can do that?*





Outwest:

Agreed you are bringing forth some valid points., however I have never been known to give up easily just because the road ahead is a tough one or to succumb to expect less of myself because I worry about politics and/or other people's opinion of my dog or worry about handler's criteria.

On the contrary I love challenges and proving that I can win if I try hard enough and most importantly if I BELIEVE IN MYSELF AND IN THE QUALITY OF MY DOG 

No one ever said that you have to have a 100% perfect dog in AKC conformation, I can tell you about dogs I would not sell as pets who find themselves in the conformation ring and worse yet titled , so there is no set rule.

IF you know you have a beautiful quality dog, enter the ring and prove him/her to the judge. Let the judge give you his critic regardless of your fear , apprehension and hesitation about the dog. 

It is not you who must judge your dog, it is the judge, so let him do the job, and you may be well surprised one day when you enter the ring with Bonnie and get her pointed, I am sure you will not be too quick to say what you have said here.. once you start to win, the feeling is GREAT and cures all the fears apprehensions and lack of confidence .

Why are you considering letting politics and the negativity you hear about dog shows rule your future in AKC conformation if you indeed have in my opinion a female that has the potential to be very competitive given her structure from photos I have seen of her here ?

You may need alot of cash if you exhibit a mediocre dog, although it takes much longer to finish a bitch in the U.S. than it does a male. 

I also though I would need a bundle of cash to finish a dog in the U.S. and yet I have shown my boy Knight for 3 weekends in the U.S. starting him as a puppy and he won at his very first show at 8 mos. old a 5 pt. major over 34 dogs and bitches.. Did I think he would , NO.. but I was pleasantly surprised.

My boy Onyx needs only 1 single point to finish his U.S. title and he was only shown 12 days , winnig 14 points including 2 majors in a matter of 12 days of showing. Did it cost me alot of money ? No... Circa $2,300 at best. This includes board, handling fees, conditioning , food , entry fees and show expenses. This is not considered alot of money to spend on a U.S. Ch. title.

You will do what you think is best for you and Bonnie.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

White poodles, you make a good case for AKC with the right dog. I KNOW you have to have stamina and chutzpah to do it with a poodle. I commend you for that. 

Hmmm...much food for thought there. I have been quite pleasantly surprised at how nice my puppy is turning out, especially when I decided I would go for health and personality first and conformation last. Trouble is...I do like a nice dog and have been around enough nice dogs to know one when I saw it. I chose her over a puppy from another litter with both an AKC champion sire and dam even though Bonnie's sire and dam were not shown AKC, but UKC only. They were prettier than the AKC champions to my eye. I have mentioned before her sire was absolutely stunning, but smallish for a male. The dam in particular was intrigueing with a strong preformance background which gave her slightly more chest and substance and thigh. 

When I saw my puppy she stood out like a sore thumb to me. I couldn't believe that she wasn't already chosen (and 5 had been chosen before her) when to me she was the standout in the litter. I had four to choose from. I think it was her coloring, which was an odd shade of cream. I looked past her coloring and saw that sparkle in her eye. Maybe I did good?  We shall see. She needs a couple of more months to develop before I actually try a show. I am taking her to a show in July for the breeder to check her out (she asked me to bring her), but she isn't showing then. 

In the mean time, I am trying hard to deal with all this hair and puppyhood. I seem to have to give her a bath once a week because she has rolled in the rotten apricots or somehow squished honey all over her back! My groomer is helping me try to develop a good puppy coat cut.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Outwest:

LOL you know what Chutzpah is.. That is great... and this is what one basically has to have to go out and regardless of obstacles reach their goal.

Seeing Bonnie's photo and you picking her over another dog you felt is not as worthy was a good thing.

Just by looking at her in the photos where she is 9 weeks old, I have a strong feeling that I will see the same end result when she is 9 mos. old.

It would be interesting to see if I am right and I hope I am.. so keep us posted here about her progress and maturity.

Good luck ! and oh, take her to handling classes to teach her the ropes just in case she proves me right  and I hope she does , she is very pretty.


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## Tulip (Jun 19, 2011)

I was going to buy a show pup next year (still might do) because I've been showing my Mini Schnauz bitch for the past year. I have since reconsidered, because I would like to rescue instead.

When I first started showing my Mini bitch, I had no mentor, nothing, I had to learn everything (including grooming, which is no easy feat as I had never groomed a dog before!) from friends who were also learning and people kind enough to give me a little one to one time. By the time it was her first show, even though we didn't even place, I loved every second of it. It was expensive, time-consuming, at times tearful, and there was a LOT of stiff competition, but to see my little girl being a star just for me, months of ringcraft training paying off...it makes me pine to have a show puppy again now! 

I think behind every newbie to the show world needs to be a good mentor. A lot of people here handle their own dogs, I took mine to ringcraft classes for months and learnt how to handle her myself (and her, me!) so to be honest with you I don't see why someone else couldn't if they too went to classes. 

The hardest thing was training for the ring, though, my bitch is sensitive and took a long time to warm up to the ring. The amount of times I shouted at people in the park 'Please don't try to teach her to sit! She's standing up because she's taught to!'...showing is definately not a bucket of laughs, but it is a wonderful experience.

One more bit of advice I give to all new showers is to ignore the bitchiness in the ring. The best thing I heard from a girl who taught me how to groom was not to give your opinion to anyone on anyone's dog! Because sure enough, they turn around and tell them and bam, you're in the doghouse. I remember going to a show with a newbie once and she was standing by the ring saying rather loudly 'Oh, that ones got a horrible curly tail!'. I wanted to punch her to make her shut up! We had a bloke in front of us that literally wrote the book on showing Schnauzers!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Ora Take your own advice and re-read my posts...
What I said was that in show/breeding contracts that I have read (and I've read ALOT) there is always a stipulation in the contract protecting the breeders lines (understandably) by stating that if you do not health test and get a title you would be able to either lose the dog or be held liable in a lawsuit

Now just because those terms are IN a contract does not mean that the breeder is going to go out of his/her way to sue someone over something trivial like that, unless of course they plan to breed the dog without having it health tested fully...or the production of doodles :yikes:

I have read several contracts that I wasn't comfortable with a few months ago again, and they seem to be the norm and would sign one in a heart beat for an exquisite dog!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> In the mean time, I am trying hard to deal with all this hair and puppyhood. I seem to have to give her a bath once a week because she has rolled in the rotten apricots or somehow squished honey all over her back! My groomer is helping me try to develop a good puppy coat cut.


I know how you feel for sure! Show dogs (poodles) need weekly baths anyway. I stretched it 2.5 weeks with Tiger and I was feeling pretty guilty..don't tell his handler LOL!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I know how you feel for sure! Show dogs (poodles) need weekly baths anyway. I stretched it 2.5 weeks with Tiger and I was feeling pretty guilty..don't tell his handler LOL!


I bathe Quincy every two and a half to three weeks but brush and comb thoroughly once a week, and reband his head and ears with a super good brush out of them every three or four days. Don't tell my handler either, but she always compliments me on what a remarkable job I am doing with his coat, so it must be working. Being nearly 56 and pre-disposed to back issues I could not possibly bath and blow him out every week, so do what works best for me. If you use a really good conditioner and leave more in than you rinse out, you just work out what is easiest for you and your dog, and gets the job done effectively. Otherwise it can all seem pretty daunting sometimes.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

outwest said:


> White poodles, you make a good case for AKC with the right dog. I KNOW you have to have stamina and chutzpah to do it with a poodle. I commend you for that.
> *In the mean time, I am trying hard to deal with all this hair and puppyhood. I seem to have to give her a bath once a week because she has rolled in the rotten apricots or somehow squished honey all over her back! My groomer is helping me try to develop a good puppy coat cut.[/QUOTE*]
> 
> Outwest:
> ...


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I use human shampoo and conditioner for curly hair since their hair is more like a humans than a dogs. I suppose I should go on line and look for a good conditioner.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I use Pantene Breakage to Strength shampoo and their conditioner; this is for human hair. I also spritz the coat every time I brush out and reband. I have had very good luck with this. I do bathe once a week and make sure that I take Aleve 20 minutes before I start so I can get through it. I am fortunate enough to be able to sit down and let my body recover after I am done.

I have heard of the show puppy contracts with clauses that state that the owner must finish the dog or relinquish it back to the breeder. 

I don't know what reasons these breeders have behind this clause, but I assume something must have happened that made them gun shy and they now have the clause to protect themselves and their dog.

If I sold a top quality show prospect to a newbie with the understanding that the puppy would be finished and all testing completed before I relinquished ownership to them and allowed breeding, that is what I would expect to happen. I have an investment in that puppy and it is a representative of my breeding program. 

I would not have a problem selling a top pick puppy to a newbie who has lined up mentors to help them through the process if I was not planning to keep that puppy for myself. I would be available as a mentor as well. 

That being said, there are various reasons why a puppy might not finish despite the best efforts of the buyer. That is why I believe every case is an individual one and has to be handled that way.

This is why I believe that a breeders screening process needs to be very stringent in placing their puppies. You really need to feel comfortable and quite sure that the person buying that top quality show pup prospect is everything you want them to be._


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

spoospirit said:


> _I use Pantene Breakage to Strength shampoo and their conditioner; this is for human hair. I also spritz the coat every time I brush out and reband. I have had very good luck with this. * I do bathe once a week and make sure that I take Aleve 20 minutes before I start so I can get through it. I am fortunate enough to be able to sit down and let my body recover after I am done.[/B
> 
> Spoospirits:
> 
> ...


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

whitepoodles said:


> spoospirit said:
> 
> 
> > _I use Pantene Breakage to Strength shampoo and their conditioner; this is for human hair. I also spritz the coat every time I brush out and reband. I have had very good luck with this. * I do bathe once a week and make sure that I take Aleve 20 minutes before I start so I can get through it. I am fortunate enough to be able to sit down and let my body recover after I am done.[/B
> ...


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

This has been a very interesting thread.

I normally do not like to sell dogs to show homes, but there have been a few times where I have. Most of the times it is a disappointing situation, but then again, I have made my VERY BEST FRIENDS through the dogs. When I say show homes, they are HOMES first that SHOW.

I have been mentored (thank you Jan Komaniak) and I have been a mentor. It is so important to have someone be there through all the joys and sorrows of the show world. Talk pedigrees, health issues, health testing, structure, movement, training, handling, choosing a handler, grooming, temperament, temperament testing, breeding issues, how to do an actual breeding, pregnancy, whelping, puppy pick, I can go on and on adding to this list.

My show contract states that a show puppy is co-owned, all expenses are paid by the puppy purchaser, all handling fees, boarding, vet fees, and testing, etc. (if I am missing something,,, you get my point) is the responsibility of the puppy buyer. The puppy must finish its championship in the kennel club of its residences, example in the US, an AKC championship, in Canada, and CKC championship, in Europe, the FCI championship of that country, before the puppy may be bred. Once the puppy is bred, the first breeding is to a stud dog of my choice, I am entitled to my pick of the first litter. I then sign off from the co-ownership. Any puppy that is sold must be sold on a limited registration with a spay neuter contract. I request, not demand, that future stud dogs will be discussed with me. If said puppy is a boy I will maintain stud rights on this dog to any bitch I own or co-own. In 22 years I have only call for stud rights three times.

If the puppy does not work out for show, I will replace it with a puppy from my next litter, with the same contract. If the puppy purchaser does not wish to continue showing,,,, then the puppy needs to be spayed or neutered and not bred. 

My contract also states that such puppy may NEVER be bred to a non-poodle or doodle of any type, and that this puppy may not be resold, or any puppy from this puppy may never be sold to a pet store, puppy miller or puppy agent for resell. This is the only place where my contract mentions legal action, for damages. I do not know many reputable breeders that do not discourage the purposeful breeding of mixed breeds.

I do try to discourage puppy buyers from showing. Showing is tough enough, but showing reds and apricots are by far the hardest colors to compete with. A good red or apricot will win, it will finish, but it does take determination. 

Terry
Farleys D Standard
"One must first build a house before painting it!"


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Damn. And I thought the show puppy contract I signed was strict. 

Also, I did get LOTS of discouragement from breeders about getting my first show puppy. I find this to be a very sad practice. Oh well, their loss! Can't wait till my puppy kicks their butts in the ring!! I am very grateful that my puppy's breeder was willing to give me a chance!


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

How am I not giving people a chance?

Terry


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

farleysd said:


> How am I not giving people a chance?
> 
> Terry


I wasnt talking about you or implying that you don't give people a chance.  You saying that you discourage puppy buyers from showing just brought my mind to how frustrating *I* found it to be when breeders did this to me. And how happy I am that I DID find a breeder who did not try to discourage me.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Millie:

Oh, Please don't get me wrong, it is not that I don't want people to show dogs, if they really want to show, and they have the passion, I will encourage them and do whatever it takes to help and support them all the way. 

I want/need puppy buyers to realize the dedication and hurt that can be involved. We all fall so deeply in love with our poodles that when we put our emotions into our guys and then we don't win, it HURTS so badly! 
In black and white it is hard enough but in red and apricot we often lose when we should win.

I love my dogs, I love color, I love showing..... It is a passion, an avocation that flows through my veins.

Please don't feel that I don't want people showing, I love the comradery, I just want people going into this with their eyes wide open!

Terry
Farleys D Standard
"One must first build their house before they can paint it!"


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## Tulip (Jun 19, 2011)

Surely the winning isn't what matters over all. Our very first show with my Mini, we didn't even place, but she behaved so impeccably and did me so proud that I was completely over the moon. I don't think showing is necessarily always about winning; I don't know about the states but here in the UK, it's a really nice day out, you get to see old friends, your dog gets a great stimulating day, and you know you've put them in trying your best. Winning isn't always the most important thing, sometimes it's really just the taking part. 

Breeders here of Schnauzers only discourage showing if they're a decent breeder that knows a show dog and can say 'This isn't a show puppy, but if you want a show puppy, pick this one instead', and then ask them to show. When I was looking for my show puppy, I found people were reluctant to give me one because they've never seen or heard of me before, I hadn't shown before, and to be honest they would have been taking a huge gamble giving a decent show puppy they could have shown themselves to a perfect stranger. It's a hard world to crack into, and I'm breeding my first show litter this year and have to admit that I too would be reluctant if it came to giving a puppy I could keep for myself or give to someone I know would do well with it to a stranger from whom I just had their word. 
I think people discouraging showing to newcomers does give it a bad name nad makes it all about the winning when in fact, showing is just awesome bonding time with your dog. It's like agility or rally, it takes as much training and should be enjoyed as much too!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I wouldn't say Terry discourages anyone, he just makes sure they understand WHAT they're getting themselves into before they get themselves into it!! I have spoken to many breeders and exhibitors and Terry (and a few others in this area) have been nothing but encouraging to me and my venture, always willing to help with any question I have for them and always willing to give advice when I clearly need it!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

whitepoodles said:


> spoospirit said:
> 
> 
> > _I use Pantene Breakage to Strength shampoo and their conditioner; this is for human hair. I also spritz the coat every time I brush out and reband. I have had very good luck with this. * I do bathe once a week and make sure that I take Aleve 20 minutes before I start so I can get through it. I am fortunate enough to be able to sit down and let my body recover after I am done.[/B
> ...


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> I wouldn't say Terry discourages anyone, he just makes sure they understand WHAT they're getting themselves into before they get themselves into it!! I have spoken to many breeders and exhibitors and Terry (and a few others in this area) have been nothing but encouraging to me and my venture, always willing to help with any question I have for them and always willing to give advice when I clearly need it!


_It's good that you have people interested in helping you navigate the show world. For a newbie, this is really a necessity. 

We have mentors in CT; our handler Mark Sever and his wife Delana. They were mentored by Wendell Sammet and another big name shower. The Severs told us that they look for people to mentor because they were the beneficiaries of a couple of top notch mentors themselves and want to share that experience with others. We feel much more confident with them there to help us along and are very grateful to have them in our lives._


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Olie said:


> whitepoodles said:
> 
> 
> > IA - I take motrin now however I have to take a daily antacid every morning and have some tagmant just in case.
> ...


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

farleysd said:


> I do try to discourage puppy buyers from showing. Showing is tough enough, but showing reds and apricots are by far the hardest colors to compete with. A good red or apricot will win, it will finish, but it does take determination.


 This is why I am going to go with UKC for fun with Bonnie. She is a light apricot, dark cream. I just want to have fun doing it. I know in my heart she is a good looking dog and nothing will change that, but she won't be able to compete with the whites and blacks. 

The last large AKC show I watched had a beautiful red in it. The judge hardly glanced at the dog and went over it in such a cursory manner it was obvious he did not want to deal with a color. I thought it was an outstanding red. Because so many judges practically distain anything of color, why would any newbie put themselves in the position to spend all that time and money just to be snubbed? No, thank you.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

*


outwest said:



 This is why I am going to go with UKC for fun with Bonnie. She is a light apricot, dark cream. I just want to have fun doing it. I know in my heart she is a good looking dog and nothing will change that, but she won't be able to compete with the whites and blacks. 

The last large AKC show I watched had a beautiful red in it. The judge hardly glanced at the dog and went over it in such a cursory manner it was obvious he did not want to deal with a color. I thought it was an outstanding red. Because so many judges practically distain anything of color, why would any newbie put themselves in the position to spend all that time and money just to be snubbed? No, thank you.

Click to expand...

*Outwest:

There is a difference between not wanting to show in AKC becuase as Terry says it takes determination and in most cases much more so with the colors especially the reds/apricots, and your stating that No thanks I wont do it because you do not wish to be snubbed or taking a chance that a judge will overlook your girl because she is of color.

IF everyone would be discourraged like you and put all the judges and exhibitors in the same pot and look at the show world blindfolded and with a one track mind, then there would never be breeders who promote the red color nor any other color but blacks and whites.

You have to judge each situtation based on YOUR personal experience and no one else's and if you stop listening to show people who discourage you just because they themselves have not won with thier dogs in the ring, it will surely give you a very grim picture of the show world.

IF YOU KNOW and I think YOU DO that your girl is worthy, then do NOT UNDERmine her quality by stating that she will only be shown in the UKC rings.

I have a feeling you may be very PLEASANTLY surprised if you give both yourself and Bonnie a chance upon maturity and readiness to compete in the AKC show rings not only the UKC. And.. if you do not try to show your girl in the AKC how would you know if she qualifies or not.

You can not base your evaluation of her (not a judge's) on other red exhibitor's experience with THEIR exhibits. Bonnie is not their dog, she is yours and unless you have an AKC judge tell you she is not what it take to bring to a licenced AKC conformation show, dont listen to others who are so free to give advices against going full force and proving that you do indeed have a girl who merits an AKC title.

From what I have seen (only) in photos I really like your girl, and believing I do have a good eye for a dog, I honestly believe from experience of looking at puppies of my breeder friends on the net and yes we DO evaluate at times based on stack photo, profile and front and rear shots, I honeslty feel given what I see looking through the window (Bonnie) is that she IS an apricot sporting a black coat.

Now, stop listening to others and wait for her to grow up, mature and when in ready coat enter her in AKC , you may be very very surprised at what you come out of the ring with.

Good luck and dont ever let anyone's stories, apprehensions, disilusions with dogs and judges and ring side remarks geared to dissuade someone from compeeting to dictate to you which course you should take with YOUR girl.

This is the advice I have and am currently giving to 3 newbies who own my show dogs and whom I am currently mentoring in the breed. GO DO IT and prove to yourself whether you can or cant.

I sold a puppy bitch (show quality) to a newbie in Ontario. She was so scared and so frightened of the show ring telling me I can never make it. I told her I sold you a great one.. now go jump in the water and learn how to swim.

She did, and she won Winner's Bitch for a major over two top handlers including my handler with MY bitch LOL her very first time out in the ring, owner handler. 

The following show week, she again entered the ring and again went Winner's bitch for another major, beating a professional handler.. So nothing is written in stone and no one should tell you otherwise.

If your breeder sold you a GOOD representative of the breed and if you invest enough of your time in this puppy which I believe is VERY worthy, you can and will be able to compete with the best and sometimes YES granted you would lose to a lesser specimen in the ring but there will be times when you will win under a judge who does not look at who is at the end of the leash but one who judges the dog, NOT the handler.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

ChocolateMillie:

I am glad you have listened to your own feelings and beliefs and will go for it full force. And.. by the way , I dont remember if I did or not mention it, but I think your white puppy is GORGEOUS. You were indeed sold a great quality one. Good luck with him.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Oh, my. Time will tell what I do. I do know how to show AKC dogs as I did it with boxers (a totally different animal). I _am_ very discouraged by the talk around the poodle ring at the AKC shows I have recently been to. One spectator was whispering to another sitting next to me, "I hope he doesn't notice the wiggles." Come on! Fake hair in their heads!? Please. 

I want it to be fun, not yucky and stressful. Bonnie and I are friends first. I thought showing was a fun way to spend time with my dog. I will wait and see what I actually have. She sure is beautiful to my eye and is always so proud of herself. She has two clicks against her out the gait: She is of color and she will be at the bottom end of standards size wise. 

She is being groomed today. I just got back from a long discussion with her groomer while staring at the poodle grooming book. Her groomer is very interested in trying to help me and thinks of it as a challenge.  We talked about coat conditioner for a while and angles and such. She is almost 6 months old, so in a couple of months we'll give it a go in UKC first. Unfortunately, we spent the first few months trimming her top knot, so it won't be as long as it could be otherwise, but we're letting it grow now. 

The breeder has asked me to come to a show in July with Bonnie so she can look at her. She sounded excited when I sent pictures not long ago, but her forte is blacks. I will see what she thinks about her. 

In the mean time, I was thinking I would call the local dog training school to find out about training for the ring. I don't want to pay a handler. I got this puppy for myself. I want to keep her all for myself. 

I look at the pictures of Tiger- a gorgeous, obviously top rate dog- and just KNOW he is going to slam the ring. I don't get that same confident feeling with Bonnie.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I can tell you honestly...I am far from the most confident newbie going into this...I second guess every decisicion (and even third, and fourth guess it o.o) but I know that the support system I have in place I'll succeed no matter what!!

I get discouraged quite a bit when experienced breeders bash me, but when I have people like Terry Farley and Ann Rairigh, and many others giving me words of advice and encouraging me to come out to the shows I couldn't possibly want to show in any other venue!

I think you should take the leap out west, you may be pleasantly surprised at how you're greeted especially if you have a great group of showers in your area like I do :]

Also thank you Debbie, I couldn't be happier with my mentor and the advice I'm given! I truly believe it's people like this that will cultivate and help guide newbies into appreciating the breed and exhibiting it!!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Keith, I think with the mentors mentioned and your desire you should succeed! I have never once heard from anyone that you were not capable 

I hope all of you in this thread do and do it well. I wish I could but will sit on the sidelines cheering!


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

I was wondering how our various Breeders determine who is a novice? If someone were to approach you with little to no ring experience (hands on), but had fully educated themselves about the breed, your bloodlines, your type, and your health testing practices. As well, they had educated themselves regarding show practices and rules, would you consider them for a top level puppy pick if their intention was to show the dog entirely themselves?

I'm just curious as to what breeders consider novice and if it only pertains to experience in and around the ring, or with poodles as a breed in general.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Fond of Poodles said:


> I was wondering how our various Breeders determine who is a novice? If someone were to approach you with little to no ring experience (hands on), but had fully educated themselves about the breed, your bloodlines, your type, and your health testing practices. As well, they had educated themselves regarding show practices and rules, would you consider them for a top level puppy pick if their intention was to show the dog entirely themselves?
> 
> I'm just curious as to what breeders consider novice and if it only pertains to experience in and around the ring, or with poodles as a breed in general.


I found that most breeders wanted me to have already shown and finished a poodle before they would want to sell me a show puppy. Ironic, right? Some were hesitant even after I explained that I planned to use a handler for most, if not all, if the puppy's career to championship. The breeder I went with knew a lot of the same people as me and I think really trusted that I would get the dog finished. She knows the handler I am going to use very well and also said that I could definitely learn to show him myself if I wanted. I think I might give it a shot after he is finished and the pressure is off.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Fond of Poodles said:


> I was wondering how our various Breeders determine who is a novice? If someone were to approach you with little to no ring experience (hands on), but had fully educated themselves about the breed, your bloodlines, your type, and your health testing practices. As well, they had educated themselves regarding show practices and rules, would you consider them for a top level puppy pick if their intention was to show the dog entirely themselves?
> 
> I'm just curious as to what breeders consider novice and if it only pertains to experience in and around the ring, or with poodles as a breed in general.


<<<<What is considered a novice:

I realize that you are refering to exhibiting, but after 23 years in the breed, I still feel that there is too much yet for me to learn to yet consider myself much more than a novice myself, maybe I fit into the apprentice slot. 

Many, many, years ago, one of the biggest names in PCA asked me if I were a breeder. I told her that I hoped to be one day, that I was a beginner. 
She gave me this advice: 

Remember,,,,, 

1. Your first ten years you are a beginner! 
2. Your second then years you are a novice! 
3. Your third ten years you are an apprentice! 
4. And finally (if you have done everything right) Your fourth ten years you have earned the right to be called a breeder!

Terry
Farleys D Standard
"One must first build a house before they can paint it!"


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## jonny cash (May 11, 2010)

You have to have thick skin and perseverence to show poodles akc. Our first dog Cash had just earned his first point, and while taking the winners photo, the judge commented that we would be lucky to finish him. Three weeks later he won a 5 point major in PA. We have been at this a few years now, and like Terry said, you are beginner for 10 years. i know very few breeders show their own dogs, but for us the experience we have gained has been invaluable. To see the dogs in person, to see them move and to put your hands on them, is experience that you just cannot get looking at pictures on the net. It seems like evry time we show, we take a giant leap forwrd in our presentation, and our knowledge of the breed does too. With all that being said, we would not be where we are without a breeder taking a chance on us, and I will be forever grateful to Beth Harris for taking that chance. Without her, and the help of Ann, we would be like easter eggs, LOST!!


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

Terry, I had read that quote somewhere before and that's pretty much what I assumed, LOL. I have a long way to go!

I am a novice, having only been showing for 2 years, and having been learning and watching for around 20. I did show a standard 20 years ago, but didn't finish him as I was in no way prepared for the politics, and I was hurt much easier back then.

I finished Callie (Ch. Signet Dream Girl) myself though, with plenty of help from my breeder (who encouraged me, but did tell me realistically that I would be going up against the pros and so would have to be as good or better at grooming and handling). I went to handling classes, sanction matches and entered her in a few shows as a pup (where I realized I needed more work, she did fine). When I finally started showing her in adult trim, I finished her in 2 weekends with 2 Groups 1st and a Group 3rd.

The reason I'm sharing this though is that I don't think I would have had the success that I did with a 3rd pick dog. Showing poodles is hard, and having a beautiful bitch made my job a good deal easier, for gaining experience, for staying engaged in the sport, and for being able to finish her on my own. 

I think these things have to be taken into consideration if we want to have more people getting involved in the sport and getting them to stay. I know some people have said winning is not important, but if we were to lose consistently, I think the sport would lose it's appeal after a time.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Tulip said:


> *Surely the winning isn't what matters over all.* Our very first show with my Mini, we didn't even place, but she behaved so impeccably and did me so proud that I was completely over the moon. I don't think showing is necessarily always about winning; I don't know about the states but here in the UK, *it's a really nice day out, you get to see old friends, your dog gets a great stimulating day, and you know you've put them in trying your best. Winning isn't always the most important thing, sometimes it's really just the taking part. *


Hear, hear!

I showed my spoo for a while, and my borzoi, and though we weren't successful in finishing a champion (could have, I think, if we'd employed a handler!), we had a lot of fun, traveled to all sorts of places, made friends, learned tons and tons about breeds--not just our own but other breeds as well. It was great.

I think I would have stressed more about it if I'd been contractually obligated to try to finish, though. Might have sucked some of the fun out of it! But, if I'm in a situation where I have a "good enough" dog again (maybe my next dog, my dream-spoo?) I'd be happy to try again. 

--Q


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

[*QUOTE=Fond of Poodles;176815]I was wondering how our various Breeders determine who is a novice? If someone were to approach you with little to no ring experience (hands on), but had fully educated themselves about the breed, your bloodlines, your type, and your health testing practices. As well, they had educated themselves regarding show practices and rules, would you consider them for a top level puppy pick if their intention was to show the dog entirely themselves?
I'm just curious as to what breeders consider novice and if it only pertains to experience in and around the ring, or with poodles as a breed in general.[/QUOTE]*


Fondofpoodles:

Yes I would consider selling a "novice" my best and I did, but NOT just any novice.

You mentioned above all the qualities that I as a breeder/exhibitor/mentor would look for in a hopeful in order to sell them my best.

If I had someone who trully immersed themselves in studying the breed, structure, movement, went to alot of shows, read many books about poodles, thier history, familiarized themselves with genetic ailments and everything pertaining to poodles and *then only* aproached to ask me to sell them a top show quality puppy stressing they are seriously dedicated to show and finish the pup, but OWNER HANDLER, I would sell them pick of litter in a heartbeat and I did last year, and will again in 2012 to a client who is waiting for a pick puppy bitch out of my 2012 repeat breeding of Cole to Emmy.

A novice does not mean an ignorant person, a novice to me means someone who is just starting out, but I do expect the novice who wishes to start out to have SOME knowledge of the breed and its structure as well as one that has frequented the show ring and spoke to many handlers, breeders and exhibitors and once they are sure that this is the route they wish to take considering the expenses, jealousy, backbitting, gossip and other unpleasantries which many novices and owner handlers experience in the ring, and if the novice aproached me prepared for everything that showing entails YES I would be honored to sell them a PICK show pup, because they have already made it known that they know all there is to know about what they are getting into and as such there are no surprises.

Another good /justified reason I would gladly sell a *pick of litter* puppy and keep 2nd pick for myself if the novice is serious, dedicated and gung ho on showing and excelling in the breed owner handler, I feel that they should have the first pick if they go it alone, because they need the BETTER dog, the one that will be of the same quality or better and competitive with the top handlers' dogs, and one that I would be proud to show myself but would gladly part with to a serious "novice" knowing she will need the better dog if she owner handles it.

It boils down to the sincerity, dedication ,determination and willingness to sponge knowledge from a mentor who has experience both in and out of the ring which will give me enough reason to place a 1st pick with a novice. 

And novices who show dedication and seriousness deserve as much recognition , support and willingness of top breeders to sell them their best and not send them into the ring with a mediocre dog who will not only start the novice out as a failure but also embarrase the kennel prefix of any breeder who sells such quality to an UNSUSPECTING novice.


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

Hi Ora,


> I feel that they should have the first pick if they go it alone, because they need the BETTER dog, the one that will be of the same quality or better and competitive with the top handlers' dogs, and one that I would be proud to show myself but would gladly part with to a serious "novice" knowing she will need the better dog if she owner handles it.


That is what I was trying to say, and what I believe is necessary in most cases for a novice to finish a dog within a reasonable period of time.

I've had the opportunity to see Christina showing Willow twice now, and if that is one of the dogs you are referring to, she (both dog and handler) are stunning. Christina does a wonderful job on her grooming and both her and Willow are beautifully presented in the ring. I made a point of Congratulating her at Kingston on her win! I remember very clearly what it was like my first couple of times in the ring, LOL.

Colina


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Fond of Poodles said:


> Hi Ora,
> 
> 
> *That is what I was trying to say, and what I believe is necessary in most cases for a novice to finish a dog within a reasonable period of time.
> ...




Hi Colina:

I have no idea when you joined the forum, most likely when I was still immersed with my mom's passing but regardless, WELCOME.

I have seen your girl and she is beautiful. Donna has very nice dogs.

Yes, Colina the female that is shown by owner handler Christina is my breeding out of Cole and Lola, born Aug. 24th, 2010. 

There were 7 puppies in that litter and 5 are in show home. It was a great litter and I am proud of them all and love their temperaments as well.

LOL my handler Allie told me that I sold the better bitch to Christina and I said OFCOURSE.. 

I am happy Christina is happy and proud and that she has 4 points on her girl owner handled in a matter of 2 weeks. 

When I met Christina I knew she is right up the alley and would do beautifully with any dog and trusted her enough to sell her a good puppy.

Thanks Colina for the nice comments on Willow and Christina.. and thank you again for congratulating her and making her feel welcome. Not too many people would do this for a novice so I trully appreciate your kindness. Thanks.

I hope to see you at some shows this summer.

Ora


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Hi Fond of Poodles:

Showing owner handled is most likely the best feeling a person can have. When that finger points to you it is the biggest rush ever!

I have owner-handled several of my guys, had the first red standard champion owner handled, and the only two apricots to finish from the bred by exhibitor class, and had the first two red standards to place at PCA, all owner handled. Nothing feels better.

I have also used two handlers at some point over the years. One has long ago retired and finished my white girl Madison, the other has finished one red girl and two apricots for me. Fantastic wins, but isn't quite the same.

I have also finished several standards for other people, feeling is almost as good as when it is your own. But it is wonderful to see the tear in the other persons eye when you win with their dog.

Hey Ora:

Great comments!

I have also placed the pick of my first breeding of Yesterday X Bert (Ch Boxwood Brainteaser) to a novice that truly wanted a female apricot from a litter that was heavily Shangri-La bred to Bert. She is doing an excellent job with ZeeZee, Miuki has pointed ZeeZee from the puppy class, the owner has some reserves to majors, and I had the great privilege of showing ZeeZee in the 12-18 month class at PCA this year. One of the owners friends put a video on You Tube that I love to watch.

SO yes, it is great when you are able to get the pick of the litter as a new exhibitor, normally you will get second pick, which sometimes turns out to be better than the pick! Has happened to me! LOL but support is the most important aspect in dawning this new adventure.

Terry
Farleys D Standard
"One must first build a house before painting it!"


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Terry:

I will never forget your stunning apricot girl (I cant remember her name.. Luna ?) that you placed with at the PCA Nationals.

I would of taken her home with me in a heartbeat. 

Your dogs are awsome and you do a great job with them and for others.

Good luck at the shows.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I found that most breeders wanted me to have already shown and finished a poodle before they would want to sell me a show puppy. Ironic, right? Some were hesitant even after I explained that I planned to use a handler for most, if not all, if the puppy's career to championship. The breeder I went with knew a lot of the same people as me and I think really trusted that I would get the dog finished. She knows the handler I am going to use very well and also said that I could definitely learn to show him myself if I wanted. I think I might give it a shot after he is finished and the pressure is off.


_And, why does this sound like the line: "I can't hire you because you don't have any experience?" Somehow, you have to acquire that experience. The only way you are going to get it is if someone is willing to give you the opportunity to prove yourself. _


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## MyDogElwyn (Nov 27, 2010)

spoospirit said:


> _And, why does this sound like the line: "I can't hire you because you don't have any experience?" Somehow, you have to acquire that experience. The only way you are going to get it is if someone is willing to give you the opportunity to prove yourself. _


This is the kind of stuff that reaffirms how desperately we always need good, willing mentors. One obviously cant mentor every person who walks in the door, no one has that kind of time, but this fancy lives and dies by how we nurture our generations - both of puppies and people! 

Thank you to the great mentors out there now!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

spoospirit said:


> _And, why does this sound like the line: "I can't hire you because you don't have any experience?" Somehow, you have to acquire that experience. *The only way you are going to get it is if someone is willing to give you the opportunity to prove yourself. *_





Spoospirits:

I agree with your statement, a mentor *should* give a chance to a newbie to prove themselves...

However, *in defence* of many reputable breeders/exhibitors/mentors who are gun shy and leery about selling their quality breeding to a newcommer in many cases has to do with breeders' unpleasant experiences seeing many newcommers come into the breed with promisses galore professing they are going to do it all the way, that they are going to upkeep coat, that they will go to handling classes and do everything the breeder/mentor asks them to do for the sake of both the dog's welfare and its future show career, and then several months later, they deflate and start having all sorts of excuses why they can not or rather will not show the dog, why they can not upkeep coat, and other excuses which they feel are reasonable enough (for them ofcourse, which has nothing to do with reality) to renege on their intial promiss to the breeder who sold them a quality dog.

This puts a damper on any reputable breeder's will to sell a quality show prospect to just any newcommer unless the newcommer can bring SOMETHING OF VALUE to the breeder's table in order to prove to the breeder that they will not waste their valuable time on mentoring the novice and that the novice is indeed bonafide in their aspirations and future plans. 

I know of several reputable and successful breeders who parted with a quality show puppy to a novice who made every promiss under the sun to only find out later that the dog they hoped would be shown and finished lost coat, was not properly exercised, allowed to mat and the list goes on.

So no wonder many breeders who value their breeding stock and show quality pups are leery if not adamantly against selling newcommers show quality stock.

There is a saying among breeder exhibitors that you never sell a dog who will break your heart if it is not finished... and many have done that.. they sold beautiful show puppies to never have the pleasure of seeing them in the ring as a result of SOME (not all) newcomers who make promisses but never honor them.

There should be a happy medium here and breeders should give a chance to newcommers to prove themselves, but I honestly believe that a newcomer needs to prove themselves *first*to the breeder with all that I have mentioned above, before expecting any breeder to give them a chance with a show puppy, let alone mentor them in the breed.

There is nothing more rewarding for a breeder mentor than a newbie who comes through their door immunized with alot of knowledge about the breed, well read and one who knows which direction they want to take with a desire to never flee at the first sign of hardship, 

And... if ALL novices would be as I have described above, MANY quality breeders would give their right arm to mentor a newcommer and sell them 1st or 2nd pick of litter knowing full well that the newcommer WILL always honor what they set out to do and promissed and become a valued protege.

The Novices are the *breed's future *and as knowledgeable breeders we have a responsibility to protect the breed and in doing so tread VERY carefuly to whom our show prospects are sold and for what purpose, since the future of our dogs entirely rests on these novices who come through our door wanting us to give them a chance to continue our work.


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## Leooonie (May 30, 2009)

I would one day love to be in ownership of show poodles, but alas I have no experiance whatsoever in the show world... I am determined to aquire a spoo in the next 5 years, and even if it a pet standard..hopefully it will teach me about handling/showing/grooming, even if there are no winnings!
I actually plan on having corded show dogs XP


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

I think also- at least from what i see online (not sure in person as i'm not venturing into the show ring with the poodles at this point) that ther is a lot of "if it's not specials quality don't show it" in the poodle world. 

I have aussies. I have a nice solid little bitch i show. she's not specials quality- she'll finish (if i did more then a show or two a year it might help LOL but performance is my focus this year). I've had several breed judges pin her up- she might be the queen of 2nd place (over several dogs sometimes more mature then her) but she's not that one who's going to rake in the majors. SO she's STILL show quality. Ihave a strong feeling if she was a poodle i'd be told to never take her out and what the heck am i doing showing her. 

Ummm i'm learning. I'm getting a feel i'm starting my own line and my career with this breed. I"m showing my dog is versatile and that i'm committed to this breed. And in the aussie world? i'm now getting offers on TOP litters in the country for co-owns. Do we care if she finishes? no. She's pointed. she's got titles in other sports. and i new coming in as a first time shower i'm not going to get that 'specials' dog. But it seems in the poodle world unless it's that quality don't you dare take it out- and god forbid someone would sell you it (a sound nice dog) as a show dog to learn the ropes on. 

This is IMO a huge issue in some breeds. If we don't get these new people up and showing who ARE interested. guess what folks that next generation isn't going to be there


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> [/B][/COLOR]
> 
> 
> Spoospirits:
> ...


I am so lucky that Ora will be selling me a pick bitch and she has already started the mentoring process with me. I can only hope that I will one day have the knowledge of poodles and especially poodle pedigrees that she has in her head. She really knows poodles


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## MyDogElwyn (Nov 27, 2010)

My answer to "So you think you want to show?" - from the point of view of the "I think I want to show!" - absolutely, but have the right mentors, do it the right way, dont go rushing anywhere, just take your time and learn. Get a spoo that you can practice on and have fun with before you get serious. Easing into showing AKC is, I think, is a much safer path, or doing UKC, you can just go have fun. 

And I said it before in this post - MENTORS! I have just gotten a tiny glimpse and showing is HARD...but a good mentor makes it seem totally possible. *So you really want to show? Get yourself a good mentor and anything is possible.*

*Ultimately, I do not think that getting into showing starts with a show quality puppy. That's the last thing on your list that one should acquire.* Mentors first, then grooming and care of coat, etc, then grooming tools and everything, then if you can stomach all of that, then you will be worthy of a puppy! 

(I bolded stuff because I am so long-winded, I figured it might make reading easier!)

I cannot imagine having the weight of a pick show puppy on my shoulders right now, and I am in some of the best hands...if you are looking to start out from scratch (like me), no poodle experience or show experience, the first time you go to brush that show quality puppy - you will know what I am saying! Agh even brushing can be scary! haha! Its truly something you have to love...and if you do, I think its awesome, go for it! Its on us newbies, we're the future of the fancy in some ways, we just have to have the courage and the right guidance.


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

MyDogElwyn said:


> My answer to "So you think you want to show?" - from the point of view of the "I think I want to show!" - absolutely, but have the right mentors, do it the right way, dont go rushing anywhere, just take your time and learn. Get a spoo that you can practice on and have fun with before you get serious. Easing into showing AKC is, I think, is a much safer path, or doing UKC, you can just go have fun.
> 
> And I said it before in this post - MENTORS! I have just gotten a tiny glimpse and showing is HARD...but a good mentor makes it seem totally possible. *So you really want to show? Get yourself a good mentor and anything is possible.*
> 
> ...


Then I am doing it right !
I have already corded one poodle and have a brushed coat on my other poodle to practice brushing on 
I do have to admit I do need help with my scissoring, it isn't so easy. Grooming tools, I have them ALL, except a raised tub, which I really covet. I love my Chris Christensen brushes and combs and ICE on ICE - LOVE.

I plan to use a handler for AKC, handing off ringside and then do UKC shows myself.

Ora is a great mentor, she has taught me so much, and as soon as Cole and Emmy's pups are old enough to be graded, I will start learning the grading process - can't wait !


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