# Leash Training



## BFF

OK...I admit never really training my dogs to heel properly (outside class). I do want Zulee to learn. Before, I used a choke chain, so I know how they work. I'm just not super thrilled in using one again. I feel like training techniques have improved since then.

Zulee does pretty well on our walks. Although she pulls most of the time. I figure my next step will be dedicating some training time for her. I was thinking that if she starts to pull, I go in the opposite direction. If I simply stop, she starts jumping. She may even sit super pretty until we go again.
I have to admit. I wanted to walk more than I wanted to train, so I can see that I didn't really give this technique the full effort it deserves.

Any other suggestions?


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## Olie

Wish I had some, I have been working on this as well. Maybe a push up ^ we might get some suggestions


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## bigredpoodle

I had a setter that was horrid and I was taught to use a long leash and turn when the dog got to the end of it . It halted the pulling because he was always looking for me..
I do not like choke chains...


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## cbrand

Heel and loose leash walking are two different things. 

True heeling requires that a dog keep its ear in line with the handler's thigh at all times and through all changes of tempo. Ideally the dog would also be looking up at the handler. This type of work require a great deal of concentration and should be reserved for periods of highly focused work. 

Since that is not what most folks want to do on a walk, what you really want is loose lead walking. This is where the dog walks next to the handler but is free to move a couple of steps a head as long as it does not make contact with the end of the leash.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE the prong collar for teaching good leash skills no matter what method you use to teach it. The prong provides a strong but safe correction (you are not going to damage your dog like you can with a buckle or choke collar) and once a dog hits the end of the leash it usually thinks twice about doing it again. 

I think the trick with any collar is to not pull against the dog because this simply makes the dog pull more against the leash until they are practically leaning into it. You need to use a series of staccato POPS to back the dog off. The POP needs to be timed so that it is given the minute the dog takes up the slack in the leash. These pops need to be quick, firm, and consistent. You can accompany it with an oral reminder "Don't pull." This is again where I really like the prong collar because a small pop on the leash gets results. Often with a buckle or choke collar you have to pop so hard that you end up jerking the whole dog.

I think the changing direction thing is another useful method because it keeps a dog on its toes. It think it can be a bit manipulative to just change direction without warning though, so I always signal a turn with my body language and with the puppies especially I say, "Let's make that turn." If they aren't paying attention to all that, well then I figure they deserve to hit the end of the leash when they get left behind.

Don't be fooled into thinking that a Mini doesn't need a prong. Someone came to me with an out of control Toy. This dog was pulling so much he walked on his back legs sometimes and he would lunge aggressively at dogs he passed on the street. 45 minutes of training in a prong collar and the dog walked like a complete gentleman down the street ignoring dogs as he passed them.


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## markfsanderson

*Of Prongs, Iron Maidens, Cat 'O Nine Tails and other training devices . . .(kidding!)*



cbrand said:


> Heel and loose leash walking are two different things. ...
> 
> I LOVE LOVE LOVE the prong collar for teaching good leash skills no matter what method you use to teach it. The prong provides a strong but safe correction (you are not going to damage your dog like you can with a buckle or choke collar) and once a dog hits the end of the leash it usually thinks twice about doing it again.


 cbrand, I agree wholeheartedly! They did post-mortem studies in Germany (after their natural lives) and found that those dogs trained with prongs suffered almost no neck trauma and those with buckle/slip almost always had some damage. I can't quote or refer, but I if pressed I might be able to find it. 


Pros - NOT cruel, doesn't damage the dogs body, gets the dogs attention big time. Pulling, flopping around at the end of leash are almost a thing of the past . . . With a prong collar the correction is quick pop-release immediately. Don't worry - you got his attention!
Cons - Get someone who knows what they are doing to help you fit it for the first time. They aren't allowed at any AKC events - they 'look' bad. I know of people who have very decorative collars at AKC events . . . ahem.
How did I teach leash training? Very simple:


Never-ever no matter what pull a dog using a leash
Attach the leash take one step forward and stop.
If dog pulls and flops around like a fish just stand still and wait until the stop. Don't say a word - don't look at him, act like she doesn't exist.
Take a step forward when the dog walks towards and you have a loose leash (only!) Praise liberally - make a BIG deal out of it!
Goto Step 2 Until Dog is walking nicely with a minimum of fuss. S/he is a pup, there will be back sliding . . . just repeat until finished!

This is a very non-aggressive means to teach a puppy. The only dog that it really didn't work on well is Samantha, my first Standard Poodle as an adult (I grew up with a big black goofy spoo in the New Jersey countryside, lakes and woods and all!). Her head could scratch a diamond it's so damn hard! My two English Mastiffs (Male Ch/CD and Female pointed) and my second Standard as an adult (Louis) it only took a couple days doing trips to the mailbox/dumpster and back for them to get the idea. 

It is very important to repeat - never ever walk with pressure on the lead. If they plant their feet, you can *-stand still-* and apply gentle pressure to the lead so that they feel they are about ready to tip over. It won't take them long to step forward because no one likes to feel like they are about to fall over! When they step forward praise and then you step forward - repeat. Then they'll bolt and of course repeat as necessary above. Be patient and have fun - keep it light and smiling!

Have fun training!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters . . .


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## Ray'nBC

I'm a beginner at poodle training, but we have had some good results working with a local trainer.
We have been training our (now) 6 month old standard for five weeks. We mainly use a martingale training collar and 6' leash tied around our waist. For the first two weeks we did a lot of in house work with our boy (Amos) on a leash as we went about our usual business. One important feature of the 1st two weeks was that we tried not to talk to him at all when training. Got him to focus on our body language, not human speak-noise. Normal, gentle movement around the house led him fairly quickly into a following mode, as he was always interested in what we were doing.
Out of the house, of course, he had a lot of competing distractions, so we started by walking in "random" patterns (actually, we walked in a path that spelled out our names and our phone numbers -- we knew where we were going, but Amos didn't!). He needed to pay attention to us to know where we were going. When he messed up, our body weight automatically and immediately provided a short, quick correction as we went off in a new direction. I think poodles get bored if they know you're going to walk in a straight line for very long.
An important part of the training was a commitment *never* to go in a direction he was pulling. If he pulled one way, we immediately went in the opposite.
Lots of praise and a good body massage after each short session, of course..
Long story short, after 4 weeks he went from alternating "brakes" and "bolts" to following us on a "dropped leash" for more than an hour at a time -- never any further than 3 or 4 feet away. He focuses on us and ignores most of the surrounding distractions. We usually stop and toss a stick or a ball for retrieving every 20 minutes or so. He's just as good with no leash, but we have lurking coyotes and the odd bear around, so we always leave the leash trailing just in case. We have 99% confidence in his "Come" and "Stop" commands, too.
He still needs to learn to walk without pulling when we get close to strangers or other dogs in the country or on the golf course. (He's fine walking down a crowded downtown street.) He acts like an absolute party animal, loving every person and every dog he meets. Actually, I think he's a bit insecure when he senses eye contact from a single person or person+dog out in the open and responds by acting out the "I'm a goofy puppy" routine. When that happens we either walk away, or put him in a "sit/wait" until he's calm enough to let the person approach. Sometimes a single, firm collar correction lets him know we want his attention on us and not the other person. 
Still a work in progress, but we have seen a fantastic change in him.
I hope something in these ramblings has been helpful.


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## plumcrazy

I've combined a little bit of my horsemanship and what I've learned by watching Cesar Millan... I follow natural horsemanship principles and we have "carrot sticks" which we use as an extension of our arms as we're working/playing with our horses. The stick can be used to "block" forward motion... When I watch Cesar's show, I see that he uses a walking stick that he uses to block the foward motion of dogs who are trying to get ahead of the handler... 

I found a very beautiful diamond willow walking stick at a local street fair and I take that on our walks. If my dogs seem to want to surge ahead, I just use my stick to block their way. Since I'm very accustomed to using the stick with my horses, I don't really even need to look at the dogs - I see them out of the corner of my eye and am able to block when necessary with no emotion, just calm assertive energy which says, "I'm the leader and I'm to be in front!" Within just a few steps, we're walking in harmony with the dogs beside me (not official "heeling", but polite loose leash walking)

Katy thinks that I look stupid walking with the stick, but I'm getting to an age where I can pull it off better than she can!


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## Tommy

If your dog is pulling the perfect solution that worked for Tommy and i is the halti dog training headcollar. It took some time for him to get use to it on his face but now he wears it and it stops him from pulling me down the block.


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## Keithsomething

the class we're taking Elphie to in the spring teaches proper leash training with the prong collar
if your dog doesn't come to you when asked you're given the prong if it does you won't need the collar for the remainder of the class 

the class is like puppy kindergarten but for older dogs ((we're taking all 3 dogs to the class)) and over 8 weeks ((3 times a week)) you learn basic obedience like come sit stay and proper leash etiquette 

I use to think the prong collar was BARBARIC but looking at different websites and having a dog trainer explain it to me its way less traumatizing to the dog then a choker collar


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## Cdnjennga

I think it all depends on your personal preference for training loose leash walking. I will probably start with clicker training my pup, then move onto a prong collar if required. With clicker training, you reward the loose leash and quietly stop or turn (without jerking the dog) if they pull to the end of the leash, then click and treat when they return to a loosh leash. A fast learning dog will probably get the gist of it pretty quickly. Of course, the real challenge is in enforcing the behaviour forever more!

You can search "positive reinforcement loose leash walking" or "clicker training loose leash walking" for lots of info on this method.


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## Cdnjennga

You might find this link helpful BFF. It even has tips on getting treats to Zulee without having to bend down all the time. 

http://www.clickerlessons.com/looseleash.htm

And here's an interesting comparison of the prong collar, halti and clicker. It's actually incredibly dismissive of the clicker! But hey, it's an interesting read.

http://www.dogproblems.com/public/238.cfm?sd=2


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## plumcrazy

Cdnjennga said:


> ... then click and treat when they return to a loosh leash.


What have YOU been drinking?? Merry Christmas and pass the egg nog!


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## wishpoo

Ahahahahaaaaaaaa ound::rofl:

I am so glad I was not the only one with a "blooper" today LMAO - but this one is just sooooo cute !!!! OMG It sounds like some Scottish local dialect or something LMAO 

Yes - CHEERS TO ALL : )))


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## Cdnjennga

plumcrazy said:


> What have YOU been drinking?? Merry Christmas and pass the egg nog!


Hiccup! :faint:


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## wishpoo

arty::cheers::dancing2:


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## bunni

Wow I'm really shocked to hear so much support for a prong collar especially for dogs who aren't problem dogs but are just being taught for the first time.


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## highhorse

I agree with Bunni. My dog is my friend first and as such not to be coerced - at least not on first request. I use play, trust and a few treats with my dogs and they do just fine on the leash and for that matter off the leash. I can't see how threats and tugs could possibly make your dog interested in being with you or for that matter coming back to you when off leash.


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## cbrand

bunni said:


> Wow I'm really shocked to hear so much support for a prong collar especially for dogs who aren't problem dogs but are just being taught for the first time.


I don't start the 8 week old puppies out on a prong. I leash break them with a regular buckle collar. However, as soon as we transition to real healing training, I use the prong.

Frankly, you are hearing so much support for the prong collar because it works so well. A dog does not have to be a problem dog to be on a prong. It can be a very sophisticated tool that enables the handler to give subtle corrections. I do competitive obedience and pretty much everyone I train with uses a prong including my trainer who has put an OTCH on one Mini and a UDX on another.


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## jak

cbrand said:


> ...including my trainer who has put an OTCH on one Mini and a UDX on another.


What is OTCH, obviously it's a title, but what specifically is it?


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## cbrand

highhorse said:


> I agree with Bunni. My dog is my friend first and as such not to be coerced - at least not on first request. I use play, trust and a few treats with my dogs and they do just fine on the leash and for that matter off the leash. I can't see how threats and tugs could possibly make your dog interested in being with you or for that matter coming back to you when off leash.


For me, the recall is not something that my Poodles choose to do because they like me, but something that they are trained to do no matter what the distraction. For me this is major safety issue. If you are relying on your dog's good will to return to you, you may encounter a situation one day where something else is more interesting than you and your dog may not come back to you quickly enough. 

I used to have a Smooth Fox Terrier (Trixie). This dog was completely obsessed with her frisbee. I would have to say that it was her favorite thing in the world. One day in the park we were playing frisbee and this guy walks up and wants to throw it for her. He totally miscalculates and accidentally throws it into the middle of a busy street. Trixie had taken off after the frisbee and was about to run into the path of an on-coming car. I gave her the recall command and she stopped, turned and came back to me. A well trained recall saved her life.

When I am out on the trails with my dogs, we encounter other off leash dogs (not always well behaved), cattle, deer, coyotes, bikers, runners, equestrians and there is always the threat of bear, moose and mountain lions. Being off leash is a high stakes proposition in Colorado. 

I train the recall with a combination of treats, praise and yes compulsion training as a consequence for non-compliance. My dogs learn that the recall is NOT OPTIONAL. I can guarantee that they still love me just fine.


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## cbrand

jak said:


> What is OTCH, obviously it's a title, but what specifically is it?


Obedience Trial Champion..... I believe it is the most difficult performance title to get because not only do you have to be able to do the exercises at the Open and Utility levels, you have to BEAT the other competitors who are also competing at that level.

You need 100 points to get the title and you get points based on placing 1-3 (maybe 4th too) and by winning over a certain number of other competitors. 

Pat Kadel, who teaches my Obedience class, has put 3 OTCHs and a MACH (top agility title) on three different dogs: Australian Terrier, Mini Schnauzer, and 2 Minis)


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## jak

cbrand said:


> For me, the recall is not something that my Poodles choose to do because they like me, but something that they are trained to do no matter what the distraction. For me this is major safety issue. If you are relying on your dog's good will to return to you, you may encounter a situation one day where something else is more interesting than you and your dog may not come back to you quickly enough.
> 
> I used to have a Smooth Fox Terrier (Trixie). This dog was completely obsessed with her frisbee. I would have to say that it was her favorite thing in the world. One day in the park we were playing frisbee and this guy walks up and wants to throw it for her. He totally miscalculates and accidentally throws it into the middle of a busy street. Trixie had taken off after the frisbee and was about to run into the path of an on-coming car. I gave her the recall command and she stopped, turned and came back to me. A well trained recall saved her life.
> 
> When I am out on the trails with my dogs, we encounter other off leash dogs (not always well behaved), cattle, deer, coyotes, bikers, runners, equestrians and there is always the threat of bear, moose and mountain lions. Being off leash is a high stakes proposition in Colorado.
> 
> I train the recall with a combination of treats, praise and yes compulsion training as a consequence for non-compliance. My dogs learn that the recall is NOT OPTIONAL. I can guarantee that they still love me just fine.


Exactly right, as with any command, Saffy has to do it, recall is definitely paramount, and she'll come back every time, despite the distraction


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## jak

cbrand said:


> Obedience Trial Champion..... I believe it is the most difficult performance title to get because not only do you have to be able to do the exercises at the Open and Utility levels, you have to BEAT the other competitors who are also competing at that level.
> 
> You need 100 points to get the title and you get points based on placing 1-3 (maybe 4th too) and by winning over a certain number of other competitors.
> 
> Pat Kadel, who teaches my Obedience class, has put 3 OTCHs and a MACH (top agility title) on three different dogs: Australian Terrier, Mini Schnauzer, and 2 Minis)


Wow, that is quite the achievement, I can't wait to start getting into the higher stuff with Saffy, we just double won Special Beginners Obedience, and will hopefully be moving into Novice, sometime in 2010. And I'm confident we'll be able to start higher levels of agility early next 2010, which will be great to get more titles


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## cbrand

jak said:


> Wow, that is quite the achievement, I can't wait to start getting into the higher stuff with Saffy, we just double won Special Beginners Obedience, and will hopefully be moving into Novice, sometime in 2010. And I'm confident we'll be able to start higher levels of agility early next 2010, which will be great to get more titles


What exercises do you do in Special Beginners? We don't have that class. What about Novice? Here in the States Novice is:

healing on leash
healing off leash
figure eight on leash
recall
stand for exam
1 minute group sit (handlers still in ring)
3 minute group down (handlers still in ring)


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## Keithsomething

I completely agree with Cbrand
I don't think it would be the majority opinion if it wasn't obvious that the prong collar ((when the human is trained properly)) is the PERFECT leash training tool

I've been told that a mis sized prong collar can do some serious harm to your dog, maybe thats why so many people think they're bad?

and they aren't nearly as scary as people let on...they just look scary


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## jak

cbrand said:


> What exercises do you do in Special Beginners? We don't have that class. What about Novice? Here in the States Novice is:
> 
> healing on leash
> healing off leash
> figure eight on leash
> recall
> stand for exam
> 1 minute group sit (handlers still in ring)
> 3 minute group down (handlers still in ring)


I couldn't tell you exactly now, but it goes something like this:
(_I'll find out later or maybe FD will chime in?_)

Special Beginners (You can only ever enter this if you haven't won it with 72/75 points twice, luckily I only won it twice with 71.5!)

Heel On Lead
Heel Off Lead
Sit/Stays 2 min
Down/Stays 2min 
Recall & Finish


I think Novice is this:

Heel On Lead 
Heel Off Lead

(obviously more advanced heelwork)

Sit/Stays
Down/Stays

(not sure how long)

Recall with Dumbbell (I think that's how it goes)


Basically only difference between them is:

Dumbbell & Slightly more advanced heelwork (which is actually easier, go figure)


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## Olie

Prong collars are very much debatable. I think if supervised and NEVER left on other than for training, it's should be fine. Dogs have died from prong collars and its a sad thing to watch I am sure. I have read about numerous freak accidents with them so therefore that has made me a little afraid of them.


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## markfsanderson

*OTCHs' UDXs' and other deities of the pantheon!*



jak said:


> What is OTCH, obviously it's a title, but what specifically is it?



An OTCH is an AKC (does UKC have an equiv?) award Obedience Trial Champion. It is very very difficult to just get one, the lady that I trained w/in Austin Texas earned 5 - there are those that have earned more (wow!). An OTCH indicates your dog compete at a very high level. Another award, which some believe is more difficult is the UDX - Utility Dog Excellent. It means that you got the green ribbon on the same day for both Utility and Open (wow!) for something like 10 times(?). 
In short - this person knows what they are doing!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


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## Keithsomething

Olie said:


> Prong collars are very much debatable. I think if supervised and NEVER left on other than for training, it's should be fine. Dogs have died from prong collars and its a sad thing to watch I am sure. I have read about numerous freak accidents with them so therefore that has made me a little afraid of them.


I was horrified when I saw the trainer pull it out and tell me that we might have to use it this spring on Elphie, but with all my friends who have used him for their obedience classes and what I've read I'm not scared one bit now.

but I'd have to wonder if those accidents were human caused because you aren't supposed to leave the prong collar on for prolonged times only for training ((what I've been told by the trainer))


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## Olie

Keithsomething said:


> I was horrified when I saw the trainer pull it out and tell me that we might have to use it this spring on Elphie, but with all my friends who have used him for their obedience classes and what I've read I'm not scared one bit now.
> 
> but I'd have to wonder if those accidents were human caused because you aren't supposed to leave the prong collar on for prolonged times only for training ((what I've been told by the trainer))


Right now it's not something I can do. It's just me. One incident I read about was during training and two dogs got locked, one dog fearful, one aggressive.......IMO the key for these are not to have aggressive dogs on these......because the more pulling the increase of seriously hurting the dog goes up. Also I just cannot see inflicting pain on a dog - and this is exactly what it does. There are so many methods, just not my choice.


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## markfsanderson

*Collars, Training and other cool things . . .*



Keithsomething said:


> . . . you aren't supposed to leave the prong collar on for prolonged times (and) (sic) only for training ((what I've been told by the trainer))


 Although I'm no authority by any stretch, I would never ever leave a collar of any type on a dog unsupervised. The only possible exception to that would be loose in the house with a well-fit buckle collar . . . but I really don't like doing that either. Collars should always come off when a dog goes into a crate . . . no exceptions!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


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## markfsanderson

*Beat, kick me, call me poodle!*



Olie said:


> Right now it's not something I can do. It's just me. One incident I read about was during training and two dogs got locked, one dog fearful, one aggressive.......IMO the key for these are not to have aggressive dogs on these......because the more pulling the increase of seriously hurting the dog goes up. Also I just cannot see inflicting pain on a dog - and this is exactly what it does. There are so many methods, just not my choice.


 I'm trying to imagine how two dogs (one with, one without or both with?) could get locked up? This sounds like a train wreck from the beginning! Incompetent trainers not trained themselves in using prong collars - the only way that I can imagine this happening is if one or both collars were very loose (not fit correctly - for sure!) and during a tussle they got hooked up and panic ensued. I'm sure that most any other animal training devices could be misused and cause harm. Slip chains in a crate, haltis grabbed on and worried by aggressive dogs, you name it - someone/somehow could screw it up!
And you are absolutely correct - under no circumstances _*ever*_ should an aggressive dog be put into a prong collar - ever! This is yet another indicator of trainer incompetence. If the trainer isn't trained on how to use them - don't use them! They are tool, and the tool user should be trained!
I've actually worn a prong myself - it doesn't hurt a bit . . . It sures feels weird when it is pulled - like a bunch of little fingers pressing my neck . . . (I didn't have any prongs on the larnyx - dogs don't have one!) . . . fortunately dog necks are MUCH tougher and stronger than a human neck! The only way that I can imagine it would hurt is if some sick son of a -beep- sharpened the prongs . . . as they are, they're quite dull. Some prong collars include little rubber 'feet' attached for a further softening effect. 
All things considered, prong collars look bad - they look like some kind of medieval torture device . . . That's the reason why they aren't allowed at any AKC event - period. AKC has a public persona to protect, and I don't blame them a bit for banning them. I personally have never met anyone with direct bad experience with prong collars. Research in Germany has satisfied me that prong collars injure dogs less (post-mortem after natural death, prong vs slip shows that prong creates much less trauma than slip) than any other commonly used collars. I'm not sure about haltis, but it appears to me that sudden lunges from highly exuberant dogs could cause also cause spinal trauma similar to that of a slip chain.
Properly supervised and used by a competent trainer slip, prong, halti, etc are all safe in my opinion. Unsupervised and used by untrained owners, any one of them could cause permanent damage to you dog. Don't think for a minute that just because you are using 'collar x' that your dog is suddenly and magically immune from all injury. Under all circumstances, no matter which collar you decide to use - make sure you are trained properly in its usage!

Sorry about the ramble . . . hope I don't raise any hackles . . . I mean no insult, disrespect or 'talking down' to anyone . . . Just my observations!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


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## Keithsomething

markfsanderson said:


> Although I'm no authority by any stretch, I would never ever leave a collar of any type on a dog unsupervised. The only possible exception to that would be loose in the house with a well-fit buckle collar . . . but I really don't like doing that either. Collars should always come off when a dog goes into a crate . . . no exceptions!
> 
> Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


We only put Elphies collar on when we take her for a walk other than that she never has one on xD

the prong collar I'll be using has the little plastic covers over the metal


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## flyingduster

cbrand said:


> What exercises do you do in Special Beginners? We don't have that class. What about Novice? Here in the States Novice is:
> 
> healing on leash
> healing off leash
> figure eight on leash
> recall
> stand for exam
> 1 minute group sit (handlers still in ring)
> 3 minute group down (handlers still in ring)


special beginners in NZ is like a pre-novice class, and once you've "won out" [two first place scores of over 72 points] then you can not enter it again, EVEN WITH A DIFFERENT DOG. It's the one and only class that the owner is scored really, it's a class specially for newcomers to the sport, so there's no seasoned handlers in the class and we're all at the same level.


Special beginners has:
heeling on lead
heeling off lead (both very simple & boring patterns)
recall (a straight line, the dog recalls to a nice present infront of you and finishes)
group sit 1 min (handlers in the ring and facing the dogs)
group down 2 min (again, handlers in the ring and facing their dogs)



Novice here is:
heeling on lead
heeling off lead (still an easy pattern, no combination turns or anything)
recall (same as special beginners)
retrieving their own dumb-bell
group sit 1 min (handlers in the ring but facing away)
group sit 2 mins (again, handlers in the ring but facing away)


In BOTH novice and special beginners you're allowed to talk to & encourage your dog as much as you want throughout the entire heeling, as well as once you've been commanded call your dog on the recall, and after the command to send your dog for the retrieve.

Test A is where extra commands are penalised and it gets much harder (a moving recall, scent, downstay with handlers out of sight totally etc etc)


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## Olie

markfsanderson said:


> I'm trying to imagine how two dogs (one with, one without or both with?) could get locked up? This sounds like a train wreck from the beginning! Incompetent trainers not trained themselves in using prong collars - the only way that I can imagine this happening is if one or both collars were very loose (not fit correctly - for sure!) and during a tussle they got hooked up and panic ensued. I'm sure that most any other animal training devices could be misused and cause harm. Slip chains in a crate, haltis grabbed on and worried by aggressive dogs, you name it - someone/somehow could screw it up!
> And you are absolutely correct - under no circumstances _*ever*_ should an aggressive dog be put into a prong collar - ever! This is yet another indicator of trainer incompetence. If the trainer isn't trained on how to use them - don't use them! They are tool, and the tool user should be trained!
> I've actually worn a prong myself - it doesn't hurt a bit . . . It sures feels weird when it is pulled - like a bunch of little fingers pressing my neck . . . (I didn't have any prongs on the larnyx - dogs don't have one!) . . . fortunately dog necks are MUCH tougher and stronger than a human neck! The only way that I can imagine it would hurt is if some sick son of a -beep- sharpened the prongs . . . as they are, they're quite dull. Some prong collars include little rubber 'feet' attached for a further softening effect.
> All things considered, prong collars look bad - they look like some kind of medieval torture device . . . That's the reason why they aren't allowed at any AKC event - period. AKC has a public persona to protect, and I don't blame them a bit for banning them. I personally have never met anyone with direct bad experience with prong collars. Research in Germany has satisfied me that prong collars injure dogs less (post-mortem after natural death, prong vs slip shows that prong creates much less trauma than slip) than any other commonly used collars. I'm not sure about haltis, but it appears to me that sudden lunges from highly exuberant dogs could cause also cause spinal trauma similar to that of a slip chain.
> Properly supervised and used by a competent trainer slip, prong, halti, etc are all safe in my opinion. Unsupervised and used by untrained owners, any one of them could cause permanent damage to you dog. Don't think for a minute that just because you are using 'collar x' that your dog is suddenly and magically immune from all injury. Under all circumstances, no matter which collar you decide to use - make sure you are trained properly in its usage!
> 
> Sorry about the ramble . . . hope I don't raise any hackles . . . I mean no insult, disrespect or 'talking down' to anyone . . . Just my observations!
> 
> Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


I'm certainly not offended, I just stated where I am on the use of them Do a google search there is a lot of information out there on these particular collars. I can see more experienced trainers using but the average pet owner can fall into some statements you made, not bad just not knowledgable.hwell: If all it feels like is fingers why the all the little prongs, why not flat one inces prongs that wont hurt the dog when yanked? Why not just use a leather one or any other regular one?


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## markfsanderson

*Evil Prong thingies . .. .*



Olie said:


> I'm certainly not offended, I just stated where I am on the use of them Do a google search there is a lot of information out there on these particular collars. I can see more experienced trainers using but the average pet owner can fall into some statements you made, not bad just not knowledgable.hwell: If all it feels like is fingers why the all the little prongs, why not flat one inces prongs that wont hurt the dog when yanked? Why not just use a leather one or any other regular one?


Thanks for not being offended  Well, I 'pop/release' - I don't 'yank' . . . the difference is that a pop carries no weight . . . a 'yank' has follow-thru and weight. The tips of the 'fingers' are dull . . . but as mentioned before, this collar simulates 'mom' with a canine neck scruff rebuke. She doesn't draw blood - and neither does the prong. Leather 'prongs' can't do the job of platic, metal or some other stiffer material. Yeah, its ugly . . . but it works! 

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


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## wishpoo

This is really interesting discussion ... I saw a video of a prong collar training and it was enunciated about 20 times that those collars OPEN immediately if any pull move is made and that dog can get loose if you accidentally pull on the leash too fast :rolffleyes: !!! So, how than they can "lock" 2 dogs and not make a automatic "release" :scared: or "choke" dogs to death ??? Really strange :rolffleyes:


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## Olie

A link on the proper way and best uses of the prong collars. 
http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

Also there are multiple stories on the dogforum.com about prong accidents. 

AGAIN, it's not that I disagree completely it's not something at this time that I will allow. I have to have solid proof on anything before I consider it. it took me until I was 30 to get in a planehwell:

If I can train my dogs and have them trained without - it's what I chose


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## markfsanderson

*You can't be too safe . . . great idea*



Olie said:


> A link on the proper way and best uses of the prong collars.
> http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm
> 
> Also there are multiple stories on the dogforum.com about prong accidents. . . .


Skepticism about any stories you hear on the internet is always wise . . . I don't know a thing about dog forum - but I would treat them with skepticism as well . . . and come to think of it - _*treat what I have to say with skepticism!!!*_ I like the safety collar that they use, I'm going to start using that myself when I do use the prong . . . great idea! I've never had a dog get away while using the prong, for outside training with no fences . . .not a bad idea. Normally I have a prong with a short (12") lead attached and initially just hook my leash to a slip chain. When an attention-getter is necessary I can grab the short lead and 'pop-release'. If the dog is very exuberant, I quickly switch over to the prong and make it the active collar . . . Good stuff!

Thanks!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters


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## roxy25

I have used prong collars on my dogs and I never had any kind of accidents with them. I also use correction chains with no problem.


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## puppylove

I think people look at the prong collar and see it as very cruel. I did but I was encouraged to try it on myself vs a regular collar. I know I would rather be popped with the prong collar than a regular. It provides an all-around squeezing rather than the 75 pounds of pressure on one side of the neck that the normal collar applies. This can be very destructive to the throat area of the dog but does not really stop the pulling.

I used it on my Aussie for a very short time when he would get too excited to remember his proper loose leash manners. All that neck hair would cause a regular choke collar to bind up on his neck and wouldn't release like the prong collar does. It also hid the prongs so that I didn't get the antagonistic glares from the public!


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## puppylove

And I never never would leave this on any dog when not training!


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## bigpoodleperson

I Love prong collars! I actually Dislike chain collars, and i Hate when i see one on a dog for everyday (esp when they are too long). When Ry was a puppy, one class we went to he had to have a choke chain on (dont go there anymore). Even with minimal corrections, he still had a Very raw (slightly bloody) neck. It was the constant friction on his neck that did it (and he was about 6 months old, so not a perfect walker yet). 

I still use the prong when we go out to big dog events. I will admit it, it is just easier on me to do so. I never have to correct him anymore. He just naturally behaves with it on. My dog Will behave beautifully without it too though, so we dont use it as a crutch. 

The prongs are very blunt, and like others mentioned, not painful. I have heard some people say "against your arm is not the same, put it around your neck and pull". Well, a dogs neck is much more heavily muscled then ours. An arm is actually a very good compairison. 

To each their own in training though (as long as its not abusive ). I have Many tools in my "tool belt" when training. Prongs, martingales, flat collars, gentle leaders, clicker, etc. Its about what works.


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## bunni

You don't think it's abusive to let your 6 month old puppy get a "slightly bloody neck"? I mean, it gets raw before it gets bloody, there are signs. This board is a little too old school for me. I am very thankful we have the modern training we have and especially for the little dogs. You'd destroy a little dog's tracheae before you realized that these old fashioned training methods are barbaric.


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## bigpoodleperson

Umm, i do believe i said i dont use choke chains anymore. And by slightly bloody, i dont mean he had blood dripping. And no, i didnt notice the redness right away. We were working and heeling. I obviously didnt expect that reaction, so i wasnt checking his neck. I really take offense to you implying that i was abusing my dog! He also has really sensitive skin which i didnt realize back then. 

Barbaric? Really? And unless you really jerked the poor little dog around, a prong collar is actually easier on their trachea then a normal collar if they are pulling. I said i use other training methods as well, including clicker training. Would i put a prong on a toy poodle? Most likely not. 

I consider barbaric to be helicoptering a dog, beating a dog, jerking it around on a collar/choke, hoisting them up by the collar, really yelling at the dog, etc. NOT by using an effective, safe collar to teach your dog. I find it more inhumane to let the dog drag itself around and choke itself.


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## flyingduster

Um, Bunni, the slightly bloody neck was from a chain, NOT a prong collar, and was from a crappy class and crappy trainers that BPP no longer goes to... She AGREES that the chains aren't good!!!


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## markfsanderson

*Hmmmmmmm my mantra word . . .*

In with the nose . . . out with mouth . . . calm . . .

These discussions can get emotional . . . and interaction with our pals is something that does strike close to home . . . 

In with the nose . . . out with the mouth . . . calm . . .

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


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## cbrand

Funny.... I consider it barbaric when people have out of control, untrained dogs.


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## markfsanderson

*Barbarians, Mongol Hordes, Mad Dogs and Englishmen!*



cbrand said:


> Funny.... I consider it barbaric when people have out of control, untrained dogs.


I agree - the barbarity is that by not training and socializing your (not the you in the specific - but the 'general'!) dog, s/he is denied social interaction that canines so desperately need! Few things are more cruel to a creature that requires social interaction than it is to deny it. Far better a prick, a scruff, a low word than to visit that type of horror on dog. Not to mention that you can't travel with them, you can't trust them, etc etc. It might be uncomfortable, people might stare - but that's their problem!
I was very proud that my 200# English Mastiff male (CD,CH. and nearly ready to show CDX before he passed, did a couple first places, 192/200 in all breed and was always fully intact) was completely trusted by everyone during obedience seminars. Small children would commonly come up to me and want to play with him, and some lead him around the building like a lead pony(always with a totally loose leash). Did I get 'after' him in public when he started acting up - you bet your life. The end result is a dog that absolutely loves going places and people love him! I remember a woman walking in off the street in Austin while I was a Petsmart counter, never said a word to me . . . reached over and gave him a big hug, smiled at me and walked out the door. He looked at me like that was the best damn thing that ever happened to him.
- That is what you get when you train with Love! -
(and sometimes love can smart a bit . . .)

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!
:beauty:


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## Marian

I bought a prong collar for Teddy tonight, got help fitting it from a woman at the store who has a Dobie showdog. I trust her to know what she's talking about, and from everything I've read on the internet, she showed me the right way. 

I bought a Sporn harness for him, but it really didn't stop his pulling. It was a slight improvement over the Puppia harness, but not much. I had taken to walking him using his buckle collar and noticed that he was less likely to pull and easier to correct than with the harnesses. After reading this thread a few days ago, I decided to give the prong a try. 

When I first put it on him, and let him walk around the store with it on, he stayed close by and wasn't trying to go exploring like he usually does. Outside, he pulled a little bit, but a quick gentle pop stopped it. I'm looking forward to using it on a real walk tomorrow in the daylight.

I believe that if it were hurting him, he would have let me know tonight. I am going to use it only on the dead ring, because he really isn't a hard case. He just needs a little gentle guidance. Thanks for the advice!


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## bunni

This is exactly what upsets me. Big dog owners and experienced trainers (whose methods I don't approve but at least know how to use them to best effect) give info to little dog owners and now this little Teddy will be wearing a prong collar. I don't see anywhere how big he is but he looks like he's well under 10 pounds to me. I wouldn't train a dog that small with ANY collar. I only use a harness on a little dog with a delicate neck because they can do damage when they pull on ANY type of collar. We've trained all our pups to walk nicely on a leash by training inside the house first, with or without a clicker, treating with cheerios (which most of the little poodles will work for) continually when the leash is slack and standing still and turning away when the leash is taut. It takes about 15 minutes for the dog to get the idea and then it's practice, practice, practice. No pulling, no bad behavior, no sore necks. (Note: I know harnesses give you no control to steer the dog, that's a plus not a minus as the work is done in the training, not on the neck.)


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## bigredpoodle

I personally have NEVER had to use a prong collar on any breed of dog. I can walk mine without a leash. I am not understanding the need ever for such a thing on a poodle. 
Perhaps all of my dogs are just more mellow? I can take my 6 month old pups out without a leash..


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## cbrand

Ugh. I hate harnesses. I have never seen a dog that didn't pull in one. I think they actually encourage a dog to pull. Heck, when they want a sled dog to pull, what to they outfit him with? A harness.

Little dogs do fine in pinch collars. I personally have used one on a very bratty Toy Poodle who was so out of control that he had progressed to biting a guest in the owner's home. This dog would alos lunge aggressively at other dogs on the street (his owner had him in a harness too). A little training with the prong collar and that dog was suddenly with the program!

Walking a dog off leash and walking a dog on leash are two totally different skills. All of my dogs can go anywhere off leash but that is not the same thing as walking next to a person, matching their stride and not take up the slack in the leash.

My Sabrina is very well trained (Utility) and she is a wonderful heeling dog (judges often comment on it), but because I took her everywhere off leash when she was young, I think that today she has the worst on-leash manners of all my dogs. Unless she is actually heeling (which is a separate exercise of short duration), she wants to be out at the end of the leash and she constantly has to be bumped back. Izze and Delilah were trained with a prong from the beginning and they will walk beautifully next to me on a loose leash.

People who live in the city don't have the luxury of letting their dogs run about off-leash. Their dogs need to walk quietly next to them without pulling to visit people or other dogs as they walk. It is annoying to have to constantly be leash checking the dog to back it off. With a prong, the dogs learn not to constantly pull.


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## Cdnjennga

cbrand said:


> My Sabrina is very well trained (Utility) and she is a wonderful heeling dog (judges often comment on it), but because I took her everywhere off leash when she was young, I think that today she has the worst on-leash manners of all my dogs. Unless she is actually heeling (which is a separate exercise of short duration), she wants to be out at the end of the leash and she constantly has to be bumped back. Izze and Delilah were trained with a prong from the beginning and they will walk beautifully next to me on a loose leash.


Sabrina sounds like our Ziggy. Ziggy is very good at the heel in training for obedience competition. But on a casual walk, she's a nightmare and lunging all over the place. My mom actually just recently got a prong collar and is going to give it a try. We'll see how it goes!

Just goes to show, competitive obedience and general good dog citizenship are not the same thing!


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## Olie

I've not used one either but I guess I allowed stories to scare me a bit.......so I am skeptical right now, but I do feel that professionals or serious, experienced people should be using them. (many are not)
Inexperienced people and bad incidents have happened though.....

Olie's dad is considering using one for Olie hwell: thanks to this forum and this thread lol. So we will see, I may let up on my apprehention....or not IDK BUT I will tell you, my dogs cannot be off leash and I won't attempt it outside of the yard or dog park, and it would be nice to have the reassurance....

Clearly there are different opinions but do any of you have pics of an actual pinch collar and prong collar that you use or recommend..........I am being open lol.


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## Cdnjennga

Olie said:


> I've not used one either but I guess I allowed stories to scare me a bit.......so I am skeptical right now, but I do feel that professionals or serious, experienced people should be using them. (many are not)
> Inexperienced people and bad incidents have happened though.....


I'm the same as you, I've never personally used one and would definitely be hesitant to use it on my future mini. Yet at the same time a good on leash dog is very important for me, as I live right downtown. So I guess I'm not against the prong persay and will consider using it if I feel it will help me with being able to safely (and enjoyably) walk my dog!


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## bigredpoodle

Even in town I just do not have these issues. I grew up in the city ! Always lived in the city until 10 years ago . Perhaps the pulling issue stems from lack of freedom ? Or excersise persey? I honestly have never had this issue with spoos...


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## Olie

bigredpoodle said:


> Even in town I just do not have these issues. I grew up in the city ! Always lived in the city until 10 years ago . Perhaps the pulling issue stems from lack of freedom ? Or excersise persey? I honestly have never had this issue with spoos...


Lucky girl!!


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## bigredpoodle

I guess so ! From what I have read anyway...


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## cbrand

bigredpoodle said:


> Even in town I just do not have these issues. I grew up in the city ! Always lived in the city until 10 years ago . Perhaps the pulling issue stems from lack of freedom ? Or excersise persey? I honestly have never had this issue with spoos...


So you are saying that today, with your current dogs when you are "in town", you can leash them up (one or more at a time) and all will loose leash walk together down the street? 

I can walk three at once, but I have to admit that Sabrina is sometimes a puller... but not when she wears a prong.


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## bigpoodleperson

Riley now has Perfect leash manners (and has for a long time)! We can be at a busy park walking on a regular buckle collar, and he will Never pull! I can be walking with a badly mannered/hyper young boxer boy that is All over the place, and Riley will stay loose in heal position. I attribute it to all of our training in the begining. I have also taught Riley a "back" command onleash. It is the warning i give that he needs to loosen up if he does get too far to the end of the leash. 

We do alot of hiking off leash, and he is great at that too. I would never consider having him off leash if we are in town, at a park, etc. Its just not worth the risk. I agree that its harder to have a nice leash walker then it is to have a dog that will follow you off leash. 6 feet of no pull space is hard on a dog!


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## poodleholic

I have found it easier to train loose lead walking by first getting the puppy (or adult) to focus on me through "watch me." The best no-distraction place to do this is in the bathroom at my house. 

From there, it's walking next to me without a leash inside the house, then out in the back yard, then on with the leash inside the house, in the back yard, the front yard, down the street, at the park, at the mall, and so on. 

The collar used really doesn't matter (as long as it's gorgeous! LOL). What does matter is that training is FUN! For the dog, and for me. My best "tool," to keep attention is to be more interesting than whatever distractions we may encounter. I have absolutely no dignity when training! The goofier I act, the better their attention span! 

It doesn't hurt to wear the pup out a bit prior - a game of fetch, or search and find, and then off we go.


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## schpeckie

Has anyone heard of a double leash that works good for poodles?


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