# Parti Poodles & the AKC



## Pella (Oct 7, 2014)

For those of you following my story, my foster Pit Bull Matilda is leaving in just a few days for her new foster home, and I am eyeing a female Moyen puppy. 

I wanted to ask those of you with more experience as breeders for a little more info on a few things, to clarify my own knowledge. 

Male Poodles shouldn't be used for breeding until they are AT LEAST 2 years of age right? 

Can you register Moyen puppies with the AKC?

Are they simply registered as small Standards?

For a color that should have black points, is buying a puppy that has liver points fairly normal "pet quality" stuff or does it indicate a breeder that is not breeding well?

Parti Poodles--I am seeing them everywhere but as far as I know the AKC still only accepts solid colors right? The Parti's seem very popular...is it a current color fad in the Poodle world?

Is a tri-colored Parti mini Poodle a rare color worth breeding? I.e. is this a desirable trait or a color fad that people who haven't done their research are impressed with? 

Last but not least, uneven pigment on the nose...not a big deal for a pet puppy, or again an indication of indiscriminate breeding? 

I have no plans to show, and while I don't necessarily seek out unusual colors in my animals (valuing temperament and health more) I don't view it as negative either unless there's some reason to. I don't really care about uneven nose pigment, or even think it's cute. 

But I do want to do my research and make sure that what I'm getting into is merely a quality pet puppy situation nnnnot a BYB situation that could easily go awry. 

I appreciate everyone's input as I continue or conclude my puppy search!

Also I don't want to discuss the specific breeder I have in mind as I think BYB's come in a lot of different shades of gray, and this breeder has a TON of fantastic reviews, while also being a bit lighter on the health testing than is considered ideal. (They do however use the Poodle Health Registry.) I don't want to say negative things about them, or trash them, just doing my research. 

Thank you everyone!

Photo of potential puppy:










(Soon I might have a PUPPY!!! EEEEEE!!!)


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I have asked similar questions as you recently. Apparently size, or variety, is not part of the registration with AKC. So a "moyen sized" poodle can certainly be registered if both parents are poodles.

Mulicolored poodles can be registered with AKC. They just cannot be shown in confirmation but you can enter them in obedience and agility. UKC allows multicolored poodles to be shown. It is when dogs are shown that their size or variety must be declared.

It is preferred that both parents are 2 years just to make sure their hips are good. OFA will give younger dogs a priliminary evaluation before 2 years. I think there is a minimum age for the prelim.

I will let other people respond to your questions about colors of coats and noses.

The puppy certainly is a cutie.


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## Mahlon (Jun 8, 2014)

*Can you register Moyen puppies with the AKC?
Are they simply registered as small Standards?*
Yes you can register them with the AKC (normal requirements are needed of course) but they are not registered as Moyens, as that is an unrecognized size and in AKC poodles are considered one breed. In the UKC they have subdivided it into Standard Poodle & Poodles, though they recognize they are the same overall breed, its more done for clerical and show purposes in categorizing. For UKC, they would be registered as Standard Poodles.

*For a color that should have black points, is buying a puppy that has liver points fairly normal "pet quality" stuff or does it indicate a breeder that is not breeding well?*

If the breeder was producing mismarked (liver nose in solid colors that shouldn't have it, or black is preferred) and was a Show Quality solid poodle breeder, it wouldn't be a deal breaker, but it would be something that would raise a flag (maybe instead of a red flag, a yellow one for caution) more for the fact that it means their understanding of breeding programs, goals, and "correct show conformation" would be something I'd steer away from. That said, in Multi-Colored poodles it is a lot more normal to have extremely varied litters, and to carry brown and the e allele that causes red->white spectrum. For pet quality, it doesn't matter one bit if they have a liver nose on a white dog, as long as you are fine with it. I'd not worry about it when dealing with multi color lines unless I was selecting a possible future breeder and wanted to avoid browns.

*Parti Poodles--I am seeing them everywhere but as far as I know the AKC still only accepts solid colors right? The Parti's seem very popular...is it a current color fad in the Poodle world?

Is a tri-colored Parti mini Poodle a rare color worth breeding? I.e. is this a desirable trait or a color fad that people who haven't done their research are impressed with? *


There are two types of Multi-colored poodles at the heart of it genetically. Piebald (what we call Parti in poodles, and in other species or breeds can be simply called white spotting), and Tan Points (in Poodles we call this Phantom). There are other traits that can cause more than 2 colors as well, but these are usually related to Tan points and the Agouti genes (examples being masks that don't turn blue/silver/etc., sable, brindle). Usually a Tri-Color poodle would be a Phantom Parti, or even a Brindle Parti. They aren't any healthier or sicker than normal poodles of any type, but genetically for a breeder it is a color/pattern powerhouse. Especially when considering how hard phantom and brindle can be to get to appear (multiple loci must be aligned to express the trait), and parti being at best incompletely dominant, and at worse totally recessive. 


*Last but not least, uneven pigment on the nose...not a big deal for a pet puppy, or again an indication of indiscriminate breeding? *

Puppies noses can change while they age, and other times certain colors (other than liver) are more prone to snowflake noses, etc. Also when talking pigmenting being uneven in a parti, that can be a result of parti itself, and also on the mouth and gums. EDIT: Just looked at the photo again, and the uneven pigment in the puppies nose is DEFINITELY a result of the parti genetics. Look at how the white mark to the right of the coloring directly above the nose continues from the fur to the nose. 

Also, through inference and your comments, I'm hearing quite a few marketing terms used for poodles that for some are red flags. With regard to the term Moyen, the only way you can have a Moyen poodle, is to have one from Moyen lines registered in one of the countries that recognizes that size. A small standard, a mini poodle x small standard cross, or even a true Moyen x Small standard do not make a moyen. Moyens make moyens, and anyone saying otherwise is just using it for marketing. There is nothing wrong with a well thought out cross like listed above (for not being moyens) but again, Moyens come from Moyen lines (on both sides). It sounds like the breeding the pups are available from was a Tri-color MPOO x Small Standard, and as I said above inherently there is nothing wrong with that cross, there are some definite pitfalls and possible problems. I would want to take a real long hard look at the Tri-Color MPOO and make sure he was picked not just for color and pattern. Some of the biggest worries when crossing a Mini to a Standard are Long Backs, Short Legs, and Irregular Dentition, or Oversized Heads. Also of lesser notice can be eye shape, coat texture, and generally you will have to worry about issues that are common in both sizes, not just one or the other (and there are definite problems that are more common in one and not the other).


Best of luck, and sounds like you are asking the right questions!

-Dan & Quinn


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with Dan. His explanations are spot on.


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## Pella (Oct 7, 2014)

Mahlon--thanks for that wonderful information--that helps a lot. Here's a few pictures of the tri-color mPoo stud;






























I don't know much about Poodle conformation but wonder if ideally the mini Poo would be more square? His back looks possibly too long for the breed standards to me, but I'm not an expert by any means. 

The Moyen situation is frustrating to me. I know you're right Mahlon that only Moyens make Moyens and in general Moyens have to be imported. I have not found many breeders doing true Moyens at all. My last Poodle was a bit unhappy with country life at 10lbs, so I would like a dog that is bigger. I've been fostering a 55lb dog and that is not for me! They take up more room in the car, any bodily function that happens that needs to be cleaned up is a lot bigger, they take up more space on the couch or the bed...I really want that in between size. The biggest Mini Poos I've seen are roughly 15 lbs. The smallest Standards I've seen are about 40. My ideal is really 20-30lbs. 

When I go to do the puppy visit does anyone know if there are things I can check or have a vet check in regards to irregular dentition? Is it something you can see on puppy teeth or only once adult teeth come in? Similarly I am guessing a puppy can look totally normal but grow up to have an oversized head / short legs / long back. 

To be fair I have seen some moyen sized Poodles with longer backs or bigger heads, but the grown up "moyens" from this breeder look pretty good. That being said, this puppy is in her mom's first litter, and her dad is very young too. 

I totally don't think this is the ideal situation--would much rather buy an actual Moyen. At the same time I am absolutely not comfortable with shipping a puppy from somewhere and never meeting the parents, nor would it be easy for me to fly out somewhere and bring a puppy home (medical issues make this difficult). As much as this breeder's methods are in some ways not ideal, I think this may be the closest I can reasonably come to having the dog that I want. I just want to do so in the most responsible way possible given the less than ideal circumstances, and be armed to the teeth with knowledge before the 5 week puppy visit that I have planned in another few weeks. If the puppy's head is too big and looks kind of funny, that's not a big deal to me. If the dentition is not good and there's a lifetime of dental vet bills, or other larger health issues, that is a bigger deal to me. 

Thank you guys for your wonderful advice. Buying a puppy affects your life for the next 2 decades (hopefully) and is a big, big decision. I feel better about it being able to talk it through here on PF.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I have a very untrained eye, but just my observation is that you are right, this dog is not square. Also you say he is a mini, but his bone structure looks more toy to me. He seems very fine boned. This would have me worried it may even cause more problems in the jaw area. His topline seems a little "roached". 

The pup is darling, but were it me, I would look for an oversized mini as opposed to a small standard since you have medical issues. 

I think you are well educated on the do's and don'ts and are asking great questions. I think you already know most of the answers. Now you have to decide what is important to you.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I am not an expert on dog teeth, but I did unknowingly buy a puppy from a good breeder that had a lower canine hitting the roof of her mouth. The permanent came in the same direction and we got it fixed but it took money and time.

Look closely at the lower canine to see they are not growing inward.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

*Mini rant on the PCA and moyens*

I would like to talk about moyen poodles in general. If we lived in Europe, people like Pella and me and several others on this forum could just go to a reputable kpoo breeder, look at the puppy's color and check out its temperament and come home with a lovely poodle that was 18-30 lbs in size. Yah! But, no, we live in the great America where the Poodle Club of America not only banished multicolored poodles from its accepted coat colors, but it grouped all poodles from 15" on up into a one standard range so it is hard for poodles in the lower size to do well in the show ring, basically eliminating the moyen sized poodle in this country.

So people who want the mid-sized poodle are told to find an oversized mini or undersized standard. There is absolutely no guaranteed place to find an oversized mini from a reputable breeder. Oversized minis just happen. They don't breed for them. They breed their miniatures to be in the approved 10-15" range according to PCA rules. There appears to be more small standard breeders around now then there used to, but if I bought one of those I would still be taking a chance that the dog would be more than the 30 lbs max range I am looking for.

So there is a demand for the mid-sized poodle in this country, and some less than reputable people are filling that demand. What should these people call their 18-30 lbs poodles? Should they leave on the quotation marks: "Moyen Poodles" Available! Yes, they are using the name moyen and klein because it describes the size they are breeding for. So while I don't like them using those names, I really can't fault them for it.

If the PCA were really concerned about good, well-proportioned mid-sized poodles, they would change their rules to create a "moyen-sized" variety of poodles. They could even make a rule that the poodles have to come from Europe to create this size. Good breeders would start bringing them over. What incentive do good breeders have to bring over Moyen poodles when they are not a recognized variety in the US?

That is the end of my rant. We don't live in a perfect world. So we each have to look at what is available to us, what we are looking for, and make our best decision.


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## Pella (Oct 7, 2014)

Thank you MiniPoo, you said that so well! Much of what I have thought myself, though I don't feel established enough in the Poodle community to say it! I'm not someone with the time or energy to devote to breeding Klein Poodles, but I sure do wish someone else responsible would! I have no idea how much it is to import them, but there certainly is, I agree, a demand for this size Poodle.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

There is Karbit klein poodles in Arizona who imports from Europe but they don't have enough poodles to meet the demand.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

in addition to karbit, there is rosemel, which has minis but is working with karbit on moyen - that line has been dubbed karbitrose. still not a lot of moyens involved, though.


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## Mahlon (Jun 8, 2014)

MiniPoo said:


> I would like to talk about moyen poodles in general. If we lived in Europe, people like Pella and me and several others on this forum could just go to a reputable kpoo breeder, look at the puppy's color and check out its temperament and come home with a lovely poodle that was 18-30 lbs in size. Yah! But, no, we live in the great America where the Poodle Club of America not only banished multicolored poodles from its accepted coat colors, but it grouped all poodles from 15" on up into a one standard range so it is hard for poodles in the lower size to do well in the show ring, basically eliminating the moyen sized poodle in this country.
> 
> So people who want the mid-sized poodle are told to find an oversized mini or undersized standard. There is absolutely no guaranteed place to find an oversized mini from a reputable breeder. Oversized minis just happen. They don't breed for them. They breed their miniatures to be in the approved 10-15" range according to PCA rules. There appears to be more small standard breeders around now then there used to, but if I bought one of those I would still be taking a chance that the dog would be more than the 30 lbs max range I am looking for.
> 
> ...


Mini, I totally agree, and I personally think that not having a "Medium" size that covers the height/weight that's currently a no-mans land between MPoos and Spoos is a big problem. As you said, its hard to blame people for using the term, for lack of another. Myself if I were working on establishing a line of North American Medium Sized poodles, I'd make sure on my website to explain explicitly my aims, explain terminology, the history of that size in countries where it is recognized etc. And obviously the term klein is the same as moyen, but its not as trendy, popular, or as used currently. At most I might refer to my size as "Moyen-like", "Klein-like" or just call them as stated a North American Medium size similar to Moyens/Kleins.

One of the major problems I have with the current "Moyen" breeders in the US, is that they are not using breeding practices that promote fixing desired traits, and removing undesirable ones (for health or conformation reasons). Its like in doodles, why in the world do we need to create more F1 doodles, other than to fulfill the demand, and make lots of money. A good breeder attempting to create Medium sized lines, should not be doing repeated intergrade breedings, they should be carefully selecting and moving on to the next generation, dealing with F2s, F1b (b stands for back cross) and so forth. When I see lots of F1 crosses being made in moyens to create supply to fulfill the incredible demand, I personally think "Greeder" or BYB. 

Also, as for breeders and there being a good reason to bring in actual Moyen/Klein lines from Europe, I personally think there is a whole heck of a lot of good reasons to invest time, money, and energy into importing. Look at the demand breeders like Karbit have for their animals that are true moyens, and how many people settle for less than ideal breedings in order to attain a "Moyen-like" size/type. The problem is that its a lot of commitment and initial investment, and its oh so easy for people to think they can just accomplish the same by intergrade crossings. The problem with Intergrades/Hybrids/F1s is that traits are not explicitly fixed, and the variation in size, and attributes can vary wildly. 

Also when it comes to the PCA/AKC/UKC not recognizing the no-mans-land Medium size between Minis and Spoos, is similar to multi colors, and personally I think the lack of inclusion only hurts the overall breed, rather than strengthening it. And with everything else, I personally feel that popularity in animals is a scary thing, and very rarely if ever helps make things better. Usually it just creates an unreasonable demand, that respected and responsible breeders cannot hope to fulfill especially with acceptable methods, and this is when the people step in that aren't as knowledgeable, or see a way of exploiting the situation to make lots of money. 

Sorry for the lengthy post, and I'll come back later if I can to address more of the questions in the thread too. 

And also, thanks for doing the research and participating in threads like this (for everyone involved) as knowledge is power, especially when planning 10-20 year commitment to a loving companion & pet.

Dan & Quinn


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## Mahlon (Jun 8, 2014)

Pella said:


> Mahlon--thanks for that wonderful information--that helps a lot. Here's a few pictures of the tri-color mPoo stud;
> 
> I don't know much about Poodle conformation but wonder if ideally the mini Poo would be more square? His back looks possibly too long for the breed standards to me, but I'm not an expert by any means.


Pella you are more than welcome, thanks for asking the questions and starting the discussion, I find the genetics and breeding programs very fascinating and interesting (and sometimes disturbing... but that's another thread ), and am more than happy to help if I can.

When it comes to the pictures you posted, I too see what you mean, he looks like he has a tendency towards having a long back, and lacks that square proportion that is part of what makes a poodle a poodle. I also think that as another poster pointed out, that the bone structure seems very fine for a MPoo, and if you hadn't said Mini I'd have assumed Toy. But that could also be due to the haircut, patterning/markings, or the fact there is nothing in the picture to use for reference for size.



> The Moyen situation is frustrating to me. I know you're right Mahlon that only Moyens make Moyens and in general Moyens have to be imported. I have not found many breeders doing true Moyens at all. My last Poodle was a bit unhappy with country life at 10lbs, so I would like a dog that is bigger. I've been fostering a 55lb dog and that is not for me! They take up more room in the car, any bodily function that happens that needs to be cleaned up is a lot bigger, they take up more space on the couch or the bed...I really want that in between size. The biggest Mini Poos I've seen are roughly 15 lbs. The smallest Standards I've seen are about 40. My ideal is really 20-30lbs.


I 100% understand your frustration with how things stand with Moyens/Kleins and medium sized poodles in North America, it really is a drag and leaves all sorts of space for breeders who you don't want anything to do with, and makes you question the rest closely to make sure there's no "trick". To me it sounds like a large to oversized mini would be perfect, and would open up your options a lot and might cause you to compromise less on what you feel is most important. They are a great size, are definitely more rugged than small dogs, and have lots of energy usually. If you are set on something bigger, and a small line of standard poodles is too large, then take your time and don't make one of the puppies in a particular litter be your only option, be prepared to say no and wait for another litter by the same or different parents.
...

Gotta run for now will try to respond to the rest later 

Dan & Quinn


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