# Housetraining woes....



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It's not guilt - it's knowing that mess on the floor = cross human. I bet if you spilled some water, and got out the cloths with the same words you use when she makes a mess, she would also do all she can to placate you, and look "guilty".

As one who also has had dogs that took forever to really get the idea - and who still very occasionally slip up when they are in season, or it has been particularly foul weather - I may not be the best one to advise, but all I can suggest is to persevere, and not to take it personally. I sympathise about the back strain - I fell last winter and the muscle strain was agony - but remember that she does not know there is a reason she should be holding it longer than she is used to. It does sound as if it would be worth going back to puppy basics, either with the crate, or with her tethered to you, and following a very tight routine, gradually extending the time between trips. Eight months is still very young - you will get there.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I would take some time off even if that means taking time off from work ect. and work on this whole heartly. I would watch her every move and if I could not, put her in a crate until I could. She would not be allowed out of my sight and taken out very often. Lots of praise when she does well ect. I think she is hiding to do her business and if you don't allow that to happen , just maybe she will get with the program. Good Luck.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

The Crate Games DVD is great, but it's more for teaching the dog self-control and to respect your release word than "crate manners" or housebreaking, per se. Though a side effect of the exercises might be increased comfort with being in the crate. 

Wish I had more ideas for ya'...I guess the only thing I'd add is that she should never, ever be out of your sight when loose. You don't want her to able to get in any more sneaky pees whatsoever. It's tough!

--Q


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

FJM, I absolutely appreciate the words you put out for me. They really helped in this bleak time 

Quossum, I'll keep trying, but I have a strong feeling what I can do just might not be good enough. I don't know... I can't stop working and being busy unfortunately since we have to survive and keep our house and home. 

I have difficulties leaving her in a closed door crate with all the noise and upset she makes since I fear her breaking teeth on the door of the crate and driving my husband so nuts with noise that he demands she go. He already wanted a shock collar for when she was going through her super barky at night phase. He talks a big game, but I know he's not really cruel and would feel awful if she did actually have a "shock collar" on, he just has a very low stress tolerance.

Maybe I'll have to do the "umbilical method", I don't know... I guess it's just take one day at a time as per usual around here.

Rebecca


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

She sounds smart. :angel: I'm serious!

Keep her leashed, tethered, or crated 24/7. No freedom. 

You will catch every accident if she is completely supervised. Mark the behavior with your word for "No". Take the dog outside first, THEN clean up the house. 

Reward her EVERY time she potties outside.

About the crate, she's a smart girl and has learned that crying/fussing equals freedom.

Now I have very high tolerance for a puppy crying in a crate because I know that ignoring it and rewarding calm, quiet behavior quickly teaches a puppy to be calm and quiet in the crate.

My fiance has extremely low tolerance for it and with my current mpoo, I chose to use an electric collar for excessive crate crying. I did not use a no-bark collar because 1) they often do not pick up high frequency vibrations like whining and 2) I needed my dog to not be afraid to communicate. If you use a no-bark collar, you'll probably end up with a dog that soils its crate because it is afraid to make noise. (That's not what we want!) By using a collar that is not automatic, I have a dog that will whine if he needs to go potty while he is in his crate. Actually, he will throw a fit in his crate is whining doesn't get my attention and he needs to go out. I am happy that my choice to use an electric collar in the crate worked out well for us. He loves his crate - he doesn't need it anymore but I keep it out because he likes it. When I crate him he is quiet. When he is in the crate and needs to potty he will tell me ALL about it, lol.

Whether or not to use an electric training collar is definitely a "hot" issue. But there are times when I think it is appropriate - especially if you learn to use it correctly. (Try the E-Collar DVD from Leerburg.com)

If you look at your dog's entire experience, you're probably creating a lot of negative interactions with her. If you can use an impartial stimulus that is not connected to you to stop the behavior and give you opportunity to have a positive relationship again, I think it will improve her quality of life and reduce family conflict.

Whether or not to use an electric collar is your choice. If you chose to use it, you can expect to be attacked online. Online interactions don't matter compared to your dog's and your family's wellbeing. Don't take pressure either way - but do take the information from both sides to help make an educated choice.

You might send your family on a mini-vacation to stay with family, friends, or at a hotel while your crate train your dog. Eliminate the family pressures and see if you can train her to be quiet without correction. 

Never stop the reward-based training. If you introduce corrections, like using an electric collar, use even more, better, rewards.

The goal of correction is to never have to use it again. The goal is to improve yours and her quality of life.


For your dog and your family, I concerned about the effect of constant stress and negative/unhappy interactions with your dog. This could lead to many other problems.

There is a trainer I respect a lot suggests to keep a journal of your interactions with your dog and also of the ways your dog finds reward. When I did it, I just scribbled in a notebook. I discovered that at the time, my dog was getting most of his reward from playing outside with my fiance's dog and barking at neighbors. It was motivating to make some changes and work with him more. Barking at neighbors = gone. He was "testing" our underground fence and roaming the neighborhood. I journaled again and used the information to make staying home more rewarding than leaving the yard. He hasn't left the yard since.

Make sure that you are still rewarding your dog and having positive interactions with her. Make sure your dog doesn't start seeing you as "the angry lady that doesn't like me".

You can start tonight by putting her leash on, tying it to your leg, and giving her treats randomly and whenever she is doing something you like. As she learns to earn rewards, those rewards she gets for pottying outside will become even more meaningful.

You will get through this.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I did not mean to imply that you should keep your dog in a crate! I meant that if you take off work ect and decide to take control of this , she may need to be crated while you take a bath or cook a meal ect. I think a few days of keeping this in on the front burner will do the trick. I have not ever had any trouble house training a puppy, but I never allowed freedom unless I could watch them the whole time.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Completely agree with Carley's Mom that a crate is helpful for short-term confinement. Just because you use a crate does not mean that you need to leave your dog in a crate for a long time.

Using a crate for very short amounts of time will help a dog a adjust to periods of separation/confinement and is ideal for crate training.

Many people very successfully help a dog adapt to time in a crate by having a FABULOUS chew toy that the dog only gets for a minute or 2 at a time in the crate. It works beautifully if the dog is so obsessed over the chew/treat/toy that it doesn't care about anything else. Another way to do this is to feed a dog in the crate. 

Feeding your dog in the crate helps keep your dog quiet and happy, and gives you enough time to brush your teeth in peace in the morning. It can become part of the daily routine to keep a calm household and give some sanity to the dog's primary caregiver who needs a break too!


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

I know you've said that she has no infections, and that she is able to go longer during the night when she is sleeping with your daughters, so I have to ask out of personal experience does she seem easily stressed, or like she may be doing it out of anxiety? 

I fostered a rescue boston terrier female for quite a long time and while she did know where it was appropriate to go, and we would have several good days in a row any time she felt anxious she would just pee and it was usually on my bed, or she would try and sneak off to go. This would happen even if she had been out recently. She had extreme separation anxiety and this would generally happen if she thought I was going away (when she would hear keys jingle, see me put on my boots, etc). My story is a little extreme, but dogs have done stranger things for less, does this seem at all like it COULD be part of it? 

I do agree with other posters though, 8 months old is pretty young.

I agree with the above suggestions for crating and tethering. Tethering is a good training tool for a dog her age, too. 

The good news is whatever system you decide to go with, even if it takes longer than your friends, or neighbors dog, she will eventually get the hang of it. It just takes consistency and planning! 

I am sorry about your injury, I pinched a nerve in my back a couple of weeks ago (back of my neck) and it was awful trying to walk Gryphon (he is really good on the leash, but still minor tugs was extremely painful) so I completely understand your frustration. 

And don't feel bad, if I say the "P" word inside there is about 50% chance Gryphon thinks I am commanding him to pee indoors, and he pretty much will do it! Not every-puppy is perfect !


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I feel for you in the potty department. I thought I made a huge mistake when I first got Louis. I had never dealt with a dog who did not understand potty training quickly. If I can get him acclimated to the potty routine, I am confident you can too. Several things made the housetraining a challenge with Louis. I got him as a two year old adult. He was never potty trained. He was intact for 2 years and hung around other intact males and females (imagine all of the hormones and marking), and only neutered a week before I got him. He was a show dog and only used the bathroom in an ex-pen. I asked his handler about walking him on a leash, and it was implied that he was never walked to use the bathroom. I'm not sure how he grew up, but I don't know if he was socialized well. He's scared of a lot of things and eats his poop. He also eats leafy debris - and it hit me that when I saw the show dogs in the ex-pens, they use the stuff that look like wood shavings you use in hamster cages to put down in the pens to soak up pee. I imagine maybe he kept himself occupied by eating this stuff and his poop. Of course, I cannot confirm much about his past so this is all speculation.

Not only did I have to watch him like a hawk about him peeing in the house, I had to watch him for cues about pooping, and always watch him after he pooped to keep him from eating it. It was very exhausting. The first 2 months was not fun. It started getting better as time went on. The biggest thing that helped me was using the crate. If I could not literally have my eyes on him, he went into the crate. I also stuck to a very strict schedule of when I fed him, when and how much water he got, when he played, when I took him out, when I walked him, etc. If I didn't put him in the crate, I leashed him to me. If I knew I'd be out of the house running errands, I made sure to walk him. He always peed on his walks, and it also stimulated pooping. It was a surefire way for me to know he was on "empty." When I came home from being away, I walked him again. He would get anywhere from 2-4 walks during the day - the first and last being long walks. In between, I would take him outside in the backyard. It is hard to have to constantly be "on" and focused on your dog, and to take them out when you physically cannot. The advantage I had was that Louis loves his crate. He doesn't make a sound in it. I think this is because I didn't have him as a puppy so he never developed separation anxiety (like Leroy) and I'm sure he got used to being alone when he was traveling. Louis is fed in his crate at all times (so is Leroy), and he sleeps in his crate at night. He is not to the level where I trust him to be sleeping outside of the crate. I don't feel bad that he has to sleep in there, he is very comfy in the crate and when it's time for bed he runs in.

After allllll of that work, I am at a point where I still keep an eye on him, but it's not as paranoid as the first time I got him. I'm okay with leaving him out when I wash dishes or do laundry. I don't freak out if he runs upstairs - it's usually to play with the cat so I doubt he's going to pee up there (I still call him to come downstairs when I notice he's up there, I never leave him unsupervised). And I trust my husband to watch him, who is not that attentive as I am and there have been no accidents (several times my husband falls asleep on the couch or works and forgets Louis is out - he usually finds Louis sleeping in his crate). To expect ZERO accidents with certain dogs in the potty department may be unrealistic though. Louis has done great for 4 months straight of no accidents, and then he peed on a dog bed RIGHT in front of me and my husband. It was shocking. And then another time he had to pee really bad and I put the leash on him but didn't open the door fast enough. We were right in front of the door, my hand on the door handle, and as soon as Louis stepped on the rug, he squatted and let some pee out. I stopped him, walked him outside and he continued to pee. He knows the schedule but it's your job as the human to stick to it, and although he can hold it, he may not realize why he needs to hold it for 2 seconds more. He is a work in progress.

Just hang in there! Get your pup used to her crate. I know the crying can get to you, but the crate REALLY does help the potty training. Whenever I'd take Louis outside and he didn't do anything, I'd put him in the crate, and leave him in there for 20 minutes. Take him out again. If he did nothing, he went into the crate again. I just kept doing it till he pee/pooped on command. I'm happy to note that he has pooped several times in the past few days and not once has he been interested in eating his poop!

Good luck!!


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

I'd say that a comprehensive health exam with blood work is in order as your first act of business. Even if she had one semi-recently, things could have changed since then.

How often are you taking her out? If it's not often enough, you're setting her up for failure. Ideally, you want to take her outside every 30-60 minutes and say a potty cue and then reward her lavishly once she does her business. Going potty outside is the best thing in the world.

Then you want to not let her out of your sight in the house. If she likes being around people and doesn't have any anxiety or fear issues, then tethering her to you is a good idea. It'll allow her freedom to move around but not so much that she can sneak off.

If she does have anxiety or fear of humans, then I'd get a lightweight Xpen and it keep in the room with you so she can be contained. Put it IN your line of vision. Like if you're watching a movie, put it under the tv. Or put baby gates on the doors to keep her in the room with you. 

Confining her won't potty train her, the goal is to be able to keep tract of her and not allow her to sneak away, or to allow you to quickly intervene if you catch her going potty. It also is really helpful to catch her before she starts. Come to learn her signs that she's about to eliminate. Crouching down, turning in circles, sniffing at a corner, etc.

Don't scare or startle her. Just get her attention and take her outside. You can even keep a leash on her and just take it and start walking.

Shocking her, collar corrections, etc. don't make any sense. She doesn't know that she shouldn't be going potty in the house. All you'll accomplish is teaching her to be more sneaky about doing it, or make her afraid to eliminate in front of you even if she's outside.

You have to really stay on top of this and not give her opportunities to practice going potty inside.

When she wakes up or you get home, take her outside immediately.
Take her outside 10-15 after she eats, drinks, or gets any kind of exercise or play.
Keep walks separate from potty breaks, if you can.
Try to take her to the same spot outside, or if she prefers, let her choose her own spot.

I can't stress enough that she needs to practice going potty outside and not be allowed to practice going potty inside. The more she practices a behavior, the more reinforced it becomes. You want to reinforce the right behavior.

I'm a big fan of taking time off of work or school and getting the dog on a strict potty training schedule. I don't think that starting dogs off going potty in the house on pads is beneficial to later house training but you've had no hand in that. What you can do to correct this is put the pad down in the house and transition it outside. Then cut and remove half of it. Then cut and remove half of that. Until you eventually end up with no pad.

If she's extremely fearful or anxious, it may have something to do with her going potty in the house. In the house, she probably feels more protected and safe. Medication may be in order if that's the case.


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