# Asta flunked obedience school



## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Hard to believe that my boy Asta is some 8-9 months old. He is growing into a big beautiful poodle.

Recently took him to obedience and he flunked out - does not get stay; sit stay; or down stay.
I'm looking for some help here from those much more experienced than I. Hello Catherine (congrats on Javelin) ; Q ; and anyone else with suggestions.

Asta just wants to be close to me - so when I walk away after issuing a stay command he immediately goes after me - even if I am in plain sight.

Frustrated - yes


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Is he treat motivated? If not, you need to find something else, such as a toy to motivate him, but it is way easier to find some kind of food that motivates him. 
Once you have that, you have to break it down into tiny steps. If he will stay until you are two inches away, reinforce when you are one inches away, work your way up to 2 inches, and when that is really solid, try 3 inches. Go back to two inches if he fails three. Once he gets into the idea of how training works and finds it fun, it will be SO much easier! I can teach Timi something new in minutes!
Also, since you are having to work with such small increments, you might want to try clicker training as that will make it easier to mark the behavior that you want.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sophy had a similar problem, especially in the stressful situation of class, surrounded by dogs and people. I did exactly as TP suggests, breaking Stay into tiny incremental steps, working as far away from the other dogs as I could. I started right next to her, and when we were up to a 2 minute stay with me so close by, we worked on a two second stay with me a step away, building up to the full two minutes. Each time I increased the distance, I dropped the duration,and if other dogs were being particularly distracting, went back to a few repetitions of short stays with me close by. As she got the idea things speeded up, and we got to the requisite two minute stay with me across the room much sooner than I anticipated, but the key is to go by your dog's comfort level, not what the other pairs in the room are doing! Any scolding or even signs of frustration just add to the stress levels, of course, and make it harder for your dog to relax and wait for you to come back. It also helps if you teach that my-human-standing-sideways-means-stay; that way you are not facing the dog in the position that means recall is imminent, can look over with a reassuring smile, and have a constant physical signal reinforcing the position!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Good morning to you. Tiny Poodles and fjm have it right. You want to make sure Asta is successful so you start out with baby steps. Since Asta just wants to stick to you, you know you aren't going to have a problem with the recall. Don't worry about that yet.

Put Asta on a sit and say stay take a step forward and then back to heel. If there was no movement with you as you took the step, release and reward. Repeat until you can take a big step forward and back. Now you will say sit and stay and take a step out then turn to face Asta. If you think he can stay for ten seconds then release and reward after five. Build up time with you close in front. Do all of this with as little distraction as possible.

In the last phase you will work on adding distance and duration to the stay. Go two steps away and then when solid for two steps add time. Go three steps away and add time.... Once you have a reliable one minute sit stay with distance make the distractions more significant. Move closer and shorten the time a bit again as the distractions become harder.

The most important thing is that Asta learns that he cannot release himself. You must be in charge of when he can get up.

Also you may find that it would be useful to start with a down stay. It is much more work to break a down. You also will be able to see Asta's intention to break more easily for a down than a sit and you will have a better chance to correct before he moves. If he does get up then take him right back where you left him and put him back to the sit or down. I would also do this on leash so that he can't self reward by going off to check something else out. Don't be afraid to talk to him while you are building his reliability. In formal obedience it is one order and you leave. Training isn't a trial. I had a woman with a GSD at utility the other week and she was heeling around like she would in a trial. The dog was totally not paying attention and she had lost him. I told her to call him back and keep his attention by reminding him where he was supposed to be whenever she needed to. Her reply was, "but you can't do that in a trial." My reply was, "but this isn't a trial and I am not judging you. Do what you have to to help him be correct.You should do all that you need to to help him be successful!"

Good luck with all that and let us know how it goes. Don't give up and don't carry feelings of failure. I will tell you that Lily was rather a disaster for many things until she was well over 2 years old. Then she had a light bulb moment and got her act together.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

The others have already given great advice as far as breaking it down into incremental steps. I would add that I think a dog like this would definitely benefit from Crate Games. (I can't link at the moment, but Google it and you'll find videos and ways to buy the official DVD.)

Even more important (in my view) than learning a command is learning the concept of the "release," and that's a big part of Crate Games. In short, when I give a command for a "control position" (that is a sit, down, or stay at the end of a contact obstacle, which I call "park it"), the expectation is that the dog remains in that position until I give my "release command," for which I use the word "Break." To Sugarfoot, "Break" means to leave position and do the next rewarding thing. The next rewarding thing might be to come to my side, to begin an Agility run, or simply to come out of his crate.

I teach this in much the same way as the others have mentioned (and through the entire process of Crate Games, which really helps solidify the concept in the dog's mind, and then the behavior carries over to outside the crate, too). I say "Sit," (this is once he has learned Sit, of course--I don't add the cue word until I have the behavior strongly), then step away one step before saying "Break," then "Sit," and two steps away, etc., building distance with time. Also, practice saying "Sit" (and other commands) when you yourself are sitting or lying down. Many dogs take cues from our body position and suddenly don't know their commands if we are in a different position.

If he breaks from position before I say Break, I just go back and reposition him (I try not to say the command again unless he truly seems to have lost his mind; I want him to be a thinking dog and remember what I'd said) and try again, maybe with less distance the next time. For this activity I don't use any harsh "No" or negative sound or scolding. I also do not use the word "Stay," since in my training paradigm, the staying behavior is inherent to the control position command. You will know the dog is "getting it" if you can tell him to Sit, walk away, and put pressure on the leash--try to gently pull him out of position with the leash. If he resists and stays put, he probably understands!

This has led to what I have now: a rock solid stay while I lead out as far as I please in the Agility ring, whether from the start line, the table, or (with some caution--I have a tendency to let this one slide) the contacts. His "Stand" isn't as solid, and I need to work more in arousal for "real life" situations, but he definitely has a good foundation.

Good luck!
--Q


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Big thanks to everyone who helped with a reply - I think I now have a pathway to stay. I just will have to be patient. Asta will not work for treats/food - I've tried everything. Chicken, hotdogs, liver, etc. He will work for praise which is good but I think it takes longer to get it. Thanks again


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## gingerem (Jun 21, 2015)

One thing I didn't see mentioned by the talented trainers above is that sometimes working on stays other than walking away from the dog can be helpful. Rally has a "down, stay, walk around." The trainer I worked with on retraining Casper (he was an adult rescue with...issues) said since he hated me leaving him, teaching the concept of not moving while I moved a lot while right beside him helped him practice for when I actually stepped away. Also staying in position right beside me while resisting other temptations - a thrown ball, dropped food, another dog running past - helps build self control. Once they build self control, staying while you walk away is easier. He would hold a stay off leash at my side while other dogs played around him long before I could walk away from him.

I think for some dogs, their human stepping away is a low-level temptation requiring only a little bit of self control so it's a good place for them to start learning stay. For other dogs, like Casper-the-velcro-mutt, his strongest drive was to stay near me so he needed to learn self control with other things before he was ready to use that self control to allow me to step away while he stayed behind.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Does he like toys, or silly games? I am lucky - Sophy will pay attention if just the word "chicken" is mentioned. She began to get bored at the CGC class when frequent rewards were phased out, but did very beautiful heel work with an occasional sub vocal reminder that there would be chicken at the end of the game! Poppy works for praise, but would turn triple back somersaults with added oomph for chicken....


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Q yes, the concept of do what I told you to until released is key here. You explained it much better than I did! Lily loves her food rewards, but a thrown toy, a tug or even just a happy and exaggerated "good girl!" are at least as rewarding to her as food, so don't worry if Asta doesn't want food rewards, just try different things until you hit the sweet spot. gingerem you are right that many of those stationary rally exercises are a very good way to help a dog to understand stay.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

I overheard an obedience judge telling her stewards about Karen Overall's relaxation protocol for teaching solid stays.

It starts with baby steps (you take one step sideways, treat) and builds toward staying during highly distracting situations like doorbells ringing. The schedule is over a couple of weeks.

See http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/Protocol_for_Relaxation-_Karen_Overall.pdf

and explanation/instructions at Overall - Relaxation Protocol

From the PDF:


> *Day 1: Dog's Task*
> Sit for 5 seconds
> Sit for 10 seconds
> Sit while you take 1 step back and return
> ...


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