# Won't figure things out?



## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

my standard poodle is very reluctant to try anything new for himself - he takes direction just fine, but if I'm trying to get a new behaviour out of him he just sits and waits for instruction instead of trying it out for himself... which means I can't teach him any tricks that require him to do things on his own in order to teach them! How do I encourage him to experiment instead of wait for me to tell him what to do?

here's an example of what I've just tried 



 this is teaching a dog to hold an object, right so I tried it...
he got as far as sniffing a new object, I click and treat, he might sniff again and get another treat but then he'll just sit and look at me and won't go near it again...


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

I don't really have that issue very often, as mine are very focused on getting a treat and will keep trying until they get it. Maybe the reward isn't good enough for him to keep trying? Or perhaps you are moving along too quickly maybe he didn't understand that you treated him for sniffing the toy. Many times we think a dog learned and understood something, but they haven't fully just yet. 
Sometimes just waiting a little bit longer will prompt a response. When I was teaching Trev "give me your paw", I started by just having him touch my hand with his paw. My goal was to be able to hold it, so I started not rewarding the short touches and waiting for the longer ones. It took a minute of him just touching my hand, but eventually he got frustrated enough that he sort of "grabbed" my hand with his paw, and bingo, he got the treat...lightbulb moment for him! We practiced that for a while, then moved on to me lightly closing my hand around his paw, etc. Anyways, maybe just give your boy a few more seconds to think and see if he comes up with something.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Have you marker/clicker trained your dog or used more conventional training methods? I noticed that since switching to clicker training, my dogs are more open to relaxing and offering behaviors. It took longer with the dogs trained more conventionally, though. 
What I had to do with my more mature conventionaly trained dogs was to basically start over and make it more like playtime with treats than actual formal training sessions. Once he caught onto that, he started trying to experiment. Some dogs take longer to catch on to taking something from your hand and you may need to try with. You may have to start very slowly with rewarding just for a quick glance at the object and progress to leaning towards it, then a brief touch, etc. You may even have to start with something different and work your way back up to a take it. Have you done any foot or nose targeting? 

Try not to spend too much time on one behavior at a time as they get confused and bored and you will get frustrated. They can feel your frustration and get even more confused and worried and it builds into a non progressive loop.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Remeber too, his dog already had the basics down, you're trying something new, it will take yours longer. He was also able to edit out just how many times he needed to repeat this exercise. 
Does your dog normally carry objects around? If not or he seems uncomfortable holding or taking one, it may not be a bad idea to check his teeth and gums for any abnormalities. I don't know how old your dog is, is he still a puppy? He may be teething, we slow training down for teething pups as their mouths are sore. 

Another thought, your dog may need to learn to tug and some dogs are uncomfortable with close contact tug games, you can increase enthusiasm with gentle tug games or even a flirt pole.


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## Sawyersmomma (May 28, 2012)

Someone recently told me a great way to teach them to do their own tricks or whatever is get a box and put it on the floor. When he looks, click and treat. Keep doing this and maybe he'll take a step towards it, again click and treat. Eventually any interaction with it will get a reward and he'll start coming up with his own things to do to the box


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> Sometimes just waiting a little bit longer will prompt a response.
> ...
> Anyways, maybe just give your boy a few more seconds to think and see if he comes up with something.


at one point he did paw at the object and I did click and treat, but he didn't try again he just sat there... I've tried just waiting but he'll just sit there, maybe glance at me, then just sit... and sit...



BorderKelpie said:


> Have you marker/clicker trained your dog or used more conventional training methods?
> ...
> What I had to do with my more mature conventionaly trained dogs was to basically start over and make it more like playtime with treats than actual formal training sessions. Once he caught onto that, he started trying to experiment. Some dogs take longer to catch on to taking something from your hand and you may need to try with. You may have to start very slowly with rewarding just for a quick glance at the object and progress to leaning towards it, then a brief touch, etc. You may even have to start with something different and work your way back up to a take it. Have you done any foot or nose targeting?


I train him commands with the clicker & treats, just praise/enthusiasm, treats with "good boy", toys, just various ways. He knows sit, down, stay, come here, leave it, go get it (fetch), gimme paw (shake), find it, bounce, stand (hold still for the show ring), those commands I definately used treats to teach. I haven't done targeting but might give that a go



BorderKelpie said:


> Does your dog normally carry objects around?
> ...
> Another thought, your dog may need to learn to tug and some dogs are uncomfortable with close contact tug games, you can increase enthusiasm with gentle tug games or even a flirt pole.


he does carry his toys and sticks he finds outside so he doesn't have a problem with that. he's 11 months old by the way. and yes he's quite happy to bring me a toy and play tug with me!



Sawyersmomma said:


> Someone recently told me a great way to teach them to do their own tricks or whatever is get a box and put it on the floor. When he looks, click and treat. Keep doing this and maybe he'll take a step towards it, again click and treat. Eventually any interaction with it will get a reward and he'll start coming up with his own things to do to the box


he's not like that though, he's not into thoroughly exploring things (unless maybe it smells like treats!), and he's never been enthusiastic/fast in the way he does tricks, e.g. to sit down he takes a couple of seconds to put his butt to the floor... he's just... 'slow' like that. he's not quick to react like what you need for agility etc. he just 'takes his time' but he's always been very laid back, if he was a human he'd be a bohemian hippy on pot saying "chill dude" haha! I feel he's saying that to me when I'm trying to teach him anything!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Your dog sounds very relaxed and not real "drivey," as they call it. There are ways to build drive and that snappiness of response, and ways to get your boy to be more operant, too, so that he'll readily offer behaviors. But if you have been successful at teaching him the basics and enjoy his chill personality, that's fine, too!

*Timing of training:*
Choose a time of day to train when your dog is alert and eager to be with you. I always do a session with Sugar in the morning, using his breakfast as the treats. The dog should be hungry, not recently fed.

*Training state of mind:*
Get yourself and the dog into an "aroused" or excited state. Quicken your breathing, play a game of tug or chase for a bit, then start in with the behavior you want to work on. Pause during the session to tug some more.

*For snappy rather than slow responses:*
When I say "Down," I want my dog to drop like a stone wherever he is. Now, if you don't mind a sit or down to take a few leisurely seconds, so long as he does it, that's okay! But if you want a fast response, you can make that happen. One thing I did was not give a behavior a cue until it was looking the way I wanted it to look, and that is fast. Then, once I had a cue, I started rewarding only the better, faster responses. If I say "Sit," and his sit is slow, I might just say "good boy." But if his sit is faster than normal, that gets the cookie! In fact, Sugar is advanced enough now that if his response is too slow, I'm going to turn my back on him, or give him a response cost (collar grab and reposition him so he has to start over). This is a "punishment," though, only to be used on a drivey, good-working dog you're 100% sure knows what he's supposed to be doing and how quickly he's supposed to be doing it! Another good way to get fast sits: Again, be in an aroused state. Say "Sit," and as soon as his butt reaches the ground, release and run away, cheering and playing with his favorite toy for him to come and get. He'll sit faster and faster anticipating the fun of the chase. Same can be done with down.

*Avoid luring!*
Notice how you said he waits for you to tell him what to do? All too often, people inadvertently train their dogs to become passive and to wait. The dog gets frustrated and pauses...and the human repeats or gives a cue, or reaches out a hand with a treat to "guide" the dog. Quickly the dog learns that the fastest way to get the cookie is to do nothing at all, and eventually the human will help them out.

The way to get out of this trap is to, first of all, get him all excited so that he's moving, and reward any sort of movement and experimenting. Then, if you do get stuck and the dog is staring at you, wait him out. Eventually he ought to do *some*thing, even if it's just looking at the object rather than at you. Reward that. Action will be rewarded, inaction will not.

Of course, if your dog is so uninterested in training that he wanders away or just lies down to sleep, you've got to do something to get the desire to work with you up. Better treats, a hungrier dog, a favorite toy that he *only* gets to play with with you. If you have more than one dog, putting one away and getting out the other and playing with it while the first dog watches can get the first dog back into a working mood.

It is very possible and very fun to have an operant dog. Sugarfoot has a high frustration threshhold, because I waited him out a few times when he was very young. He barked, he got indignant, but he learned that the thing to do when frustrated is to keep trying, not to give up. Now, when presented with any new object, he immediately starts interacting with it in all sorts of ways. I showed him a large ball for the first time, and within a minute he was putting his front feet on it, butting it around with his head, trying to pick it up with his mouth--I rewarded all of that, and then I could start selectively rewarding the response I wanted. I don't use the clicker until I'm ready to get really precise with what I want; at first I just reward all interaction with "Yesss!" and treats, with frequent tugging breaks.

Hope these tips help. Have fun with it!

--Q


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

ladybird, your poodle sounds just like mine! He gives up easily. I tried teaching him to pick up a toy and put it in a box. Forget it. I did find out he gives quicker responses to boiled chicken, so I may have to try it with that treat in the morning when he's hungry.


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

Quossum said:


> Your dog sounds very relaxed and not real "drivey," as they call it. There are ways to build drive and that snappiness of response, and ways to get your boy to be more operant, too, so that he'll readily offer behaviors. But if you have been successful at teaching him the basics and enjoy his chill personality, that's fine, too!
> 
> *Avoid luring!*
> Notice how you said he waits for you to tell him what to do? All too often, people inadvertently train their dogs to become passive and to wait. The dog gets frustrated and pauses...and the human repeats or gives a cue, or reaches out a hand with a treat to "guide" the dog. Quickly the dog learns that the fastest way to get the cookie is to do nothing at all, and eventually the human will help them out.
> ...


I think you hit the nail on the head - he has no drive! that's the word I was looking for.

you also hit the nail when you mentioned I accidentally lured him and that's why he waits for me to tell him what to do!! doh!

He gives up easily too and gets bored quickly... ends up staring at the floor looking very very bored. I might try teaching him something when he's in "play" mode and wanting activity. and thanks for the tip on how to get him to respond with speed to commands, I'll give that a try as well! thanks!


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

ladybird said:


> at one point he did paw at the object and I did click and treat, but he didn't try again he just sat there... I've tried just waiting but he'll just sit there, maybe glance at me, then just sit... and sit...


My poodle's only slightly more drivey, I think, and I have trouble with freeshaping as well. What's helped though, is in moments like that (paws an object), where she showed significantly more interest than before (only sniffing or looking), I do a jackpot reward - click and toss a big handful of treats all around her on the floor, near the object (happy dance optional).


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

Work on micro-shaping. Break it down for them. Provide a constant stream of info via the clicker for ANY slight movement, glance, head turn, ear movement. You should CT (click/ treat) _at least_ every 6 seconds. Let your clicker do all the work & stay very still. Keep training clean & elegant. Hold many treats in your hand so your lure/ cue/ overshadow isn't that your hand moves to the treat pouch.

The more clicker info you give them that lets them know what you want, the more they'll be willing to experiment- they're winning & it's FUN!


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Clicker is my best friend (Nickel's BFF too). I taught him a lot of tricks including putting his toys back to his toy box, closing the cabinet door and crossing his paws with a clicker and a lot of yummy treats.

Karen Pryor Clickertraining | The Leader in Positive Reinforcement Training


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