# Bloat Question



## New2Poo (Feb 15, 2017)

Hello,

Very new to poos! Is bloat a risk in mini poos, or just standards?


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I won't say a mini has never bloated, but it is overwhelmingly a standard issue. It tends to be a risk in large breeds with deep, narrow chests. Great Danes are the poster children of bloat.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

There is no accepted clinical evidence that bloat is more or less common in specific breeds but as stated, " It tends to be a risk in large breeds with deep, narrow chests." I have seen torsion bloat in labs and GSDs and my own empiric experience is, that it is more common in dogs that bolt their food and large breeds.
Eric.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

ericwd9 said:


> There is no accepted clinical evidence that bloat is more or less common in specific breeds but as stated, " It tends to be a risk in large breeds with deep, narrow chests." I have seen torsion bloat in labs and GSDs and my own empiric experience is, that it is more common in dogs that bolt their food and large breeds.
> Eric.


I'm curious what you mean by this. There are a few studies showing or at least suggesting lifetime risks in a small number of at-risk breeds, are these not considered accepted clinical evidence? I'm also not sure what the connection is between fast eating and GDV. I'm not saying that I don't think there is one, but I think that as many dogs who bloat aren't fast eaters and bloat at night on an empty stomach as dogs who inhale their food and swallow a lot of air and can't pass the gas. So there must be more to it. I know one study showed that the air in the stomach of dogs who bloated was fermented air and then another showed that it was caused by aerophagia, and then I read another study re-proving the fermentation theory with further evidence, and then I sort of got a little lost on what was finally accepted as actually true, if anything, ha.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

"studies showing or at least suggesting" are not necessarily regarded as proof positive. There has been a lot of "evidence" showing different sides of the problem. But nothing that could be regarded as gospel. My evidence, as stated is empiric and can not be regarded as proof of anything. My evidence was with a group of working dogs in a police force. The handlers of all the dogs that bloated said that they bolted their food and would at times vomit and re-ingest. Many of those who did not bolt did not bloat. One non-bolter did out of six deaths and five recoveries in total. The feeding regime was changed to "little and often" and bloating was less common but still occurred. This evidence is not compelling but is from my personal observations. As a result I feed Gracie a little and often.
Eric


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I am pretty sure there is solid and accepted evidence that Great Danes, as a breed, are highly at risk for bloat. So are you saying that there isn't actually proof of this? And that there is evidence showing that this is not the case?


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I am pretty sure there is solid and accepted evidence that Great Danes, as a breed, are highly at risk for bloat. So are you saying that there isn't actually proof of this? And that there is evidence showing that this is not the case?


I don't really claim anything but my own limited experience. How would you present proof? I am in no doubt that Danes bloat. They may bloat more often than other breeds and some owners might believe this But for the Danes that bloated and were reported how many others did not? There may be studies that have supported the premise that Danes bloat more often than other breeds but what evidence is there. If there were a national dog register that compulsorily recorded certain disease as there is with humans we might be able to draw solid conclusions but this information is not available and those people who have Danes and standard poodles that have not bloated are not recorded. Whereas those who have had problems are subject to records in some veterinary areas. Owners of Danes that have had a bloat problem would believe that it is common. Those who have had no problems likely think they are lucky or other peoples Danes bloat. Do all chi's snap and bite? I think not but the greater public opinion would say yes. What is fairly sure. is that big breeds bloat more often than small ones. Vets everywhere support this.
Eric.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

So are you saying that you do not consider the studies that show that Danes have a high risk of bloat to be accurate? What is your own limited experience that makes you believe that Danes are not actually highly at risk for bloat, more than other breeds?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

ericwd9 said:


> If there were a national dog register that compulsorily recorded certain disease as there is with humans we might be able to draw solid conclusions .....


There is a national base that records certain disease... PHR - Poodle Health Registry. In there we do NOT record any diseases our dogs have gone thru. 'Cos any information we put out in public WILL be used against us and our dogs. 

By people who may not have a clue... only opinion.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Here is a good summary of the Purdue Bloat Study findings on risk factors for GDV, including breed, age, and feeding habits. 

Risk Factors for Canine Bloat by Jerold S. Bell DVM, Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine

One sentence regarding high-risk breeds: The breed with the highest average lifetime likelihood of a bloat episode is the Great Dane, at 42.4%. Other breeds at higher-than average risk include the Bloodhound, Irish Wolfhound, Irish Setter, Akita, standard Poodle, German Shepherd Dog, and Boxer. Other deep-chested breeds and deep-chested mixed-breed dogs are also at higher risk.

This is another good summary of the subject, including a table with breeds ranked by risk (see screenshots). Note that the standard poodle is in the top 10 breeds at risk, and the miniature poodle, while cases have been noted, is considered lower than average risk for all breeds combined.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> So are you saying that you do not consider the studies that show that Danes have a high risk of bloat to be accurate? What is your own limited experience that makes you believe that Danes are not actually highly at risk for bloat, more than other breeds?


I said no such thing. Danes may well bloat more often than other breeds and there are people who have Danes who report this. Scientific evidence needs proof. My limited experience and that of many others does not constitute proof. "leave it" we are going in smaller circles and getting away from the OP.
Eric


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

ericwd9 said:


> I said no such thing. Danes may well bloat more often than other breeds and there are people who have Danes who report this. Scientific evidence needs proof. My limited experience and that of many others does not constitute proof. "leave it" we are going in smaller circles and getting away from the OP.
> Eric


While the OP's point has been strayed from, I think we are discussing an important point here, and that's the beauty of discussion. It isn't linear.  (Not to mention, you demanding me to "leave it" comes off a little rude, too...)

Anyway, the thing about science is that we never have final proof. Scientific theories require evidence. We *do *have evidence, published in the form of studies (one of which is posted in this thread) that certain breeds (Great Danes) bloat a lot more than other breeds (the miniature variety of the poodle). Science IS empirical and is based on evidence to support or counter theories. Science is always tentative and provisional. It isn't like math, where final proof exists. Scientific fact, proven knowledge, these don't exist in science. Science is all about theories (currently accepted theories, which change over time) based on evidence (which changes over time). 

This is actually on track with the OP's point, as there is published, peer reviewed scientific evidence supporting the theory that miniature poodles are not as highly at risk for bloat as standard poodles. And because this is science we are talking about, that's the best you get right now. Evidence to support the theory, not final, written in stone unchangeable fact.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

This is far from scientific and is purely my guess, based on what happened with Vontae (my mini) when I tried an elevated bowl on him for several days. I suspect elevated bowls are correlated with an increase in bloat for large dogs mainly because elevated bowls enable dogs to eat faster - too fast for some dogs. When Vontae used the elevated bowl, he most certainly ate much faster, such that he threw up immediately after eating on three occasions. I'm pretty sure the fast eating led to the throw-up because sometimes when he eats out of my hand and inhales a very large chunk of food all at once, he also throws up. The throw-up ceased immediately after I changed to a ground bowl that slowed down his eating.

Kevin


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Verve said:


> Here is a good summary of the Purdue Bloat Study findings on risk factors for GDV, including breed, age, and feeding habits.
> 
> Risk Factors for Canine Bloat by Jerold S. Bell DVM, Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine
> 
> ...


Verve, thanks for posting this. I have a minipoo and didn't realize that bloat was a concern. While clearly minipoos are not as high risk as a spoo or the other dogs higher on the list - it is a possibility. 

My dog is bolts her food- although she has never thrown up from bolting food. It's extremely rare for her to get a full bowl because I use her food for training at meal time. Having seen what Verve has posted, I will never allow her to bolt a large meal. 

kchen95 - that's interesting what you have noticed with Vontae - no raised bowls.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Doberman Pinschers are also at high risk for bloat. Again, that deep chested type of dog that most people accept are vulnerable. I don't care about scientific proof if I own a dog _reputed_ to be at high risk. That's enough for me to be _extra_ watchful for signs. Whatever they're going on at the time, I'd be careful with. For example, when I had my Dobe they said don't let them run hard within an hour of eating and two hours after eating. So, I made sure of that. Then it was _raise their bowl._ So I did that but only a little tad because that was still controversial. I'd put it on one step that lead out of my living room. That way I compromised. But most of all, without a lot of evidence other than some studies and observations, I knew that my breed did bloat quite a lot and I better be familiar with the signs and know where my emergency vet was located. Sure, scientific proof might be useful...maybe lead to better prevention or treatments. But otherwise, it's a good thing to know about bloat and that it's quite accepted to be of higher incidence in deep chested, big dogs. Not having a lot of evidence doesn't mean you don't have to watch out for signs and know what to do.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Hi PBm sorry I'm straying off topic here, but since you had a Dobe and this is a breed I'm also interested in, I l'd love to know - how did you deal with DCM as an issue for the breed? As much as I love the idea of getting a Dobe, I just can't imagine having to deal with this seeming time bomb - as far as I know, it now afflicts more than 50% of all Dobes and once the Dobe gets it, he/she only has minutes to weeks left to live? Also I understand that there's an ongoing Dobe longevity study that examines Dobes who live relatively long lives - 10 years or more. As a poodle owner, I have a hard time comprehending that a dog making it to year 10 is already considered unusually long, meaning even if your Dobe lucks out and doesn't get DCM, he/she would still be extremely lucky just to make it to 10?

Is this just what I need to be willing to accept if I want to consider getting a Dobe?

Again, sorry for straying!

Kevin


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## allysbff (Mar 17, 2017)

It usually happens when a dog's stomach is filled food and fluid. Vets aren't sure yet on what cause bloat for animals but have pointed out something that raises a dog's risk for it including; a large meal consumption a day (eating or drinking too much), eating fast, and playing or running after s/he eats. 
You can visit the nearest animal clinic for it to be check, and try to monitor your dog's eating habits.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

kchen95 said:


> Hi PBm sorry I'm straying off topic here, but since you had a Dobe and this is a breed I'm also interested in, I l'd love to know - how did you deal with DCM as an issue for the breed? As much as I love the idea of getting a Dobe, I just can't imagine having to deal with this seeming time bomb - as far as I know, it now afflicts more than 50% of all Dobes and once the Dobe gets it, he/she only has minutes to weeks left to live? Also I understand that there's an ongoing Dobe longevity study that examines Dobes who live relatively long lives - 10 years or more. As a poodle owner, I have a hard time comprehending that a dog making it to year 10 is already considered unusually long, meaning even if your Dobe lucks out and doesn't get DCM, he/she would still be extremely lucky just to make it to 10?
> 
> Is this just what I need to be willing to accept if I want to consider getting a Dobe?
> 
> ...



As with any breed, you do the best you can researching the breeder's lines. DCM was not in any of my dog's lines for a long, long time. Neither was wobbler's (cervical vertebral instability) or bone cancer. (the 3 C's) (the 3 big things to watch out for in particular) But he did get liver disease (copper storage and chronic active hepatitis) and stomach cancer, not a type that is inherent in Dobes. He had some other issues too. But I won't take this thread off for too long. Anyhow, you do your research as best you can. I love the breed but it is not a healthy breed. So, that is why I didn't get another. I was beyond heart broken when my Dobe died at age 4.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

For those interested in the most up to date understanding of GDV - AKC Canine Health Foundation . Hopefully the studies currently underway will shed more light in the future.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> As with any breed, you do the best you can researching the breeder's lines. DCM was not in any of my dog's lines for a long, long time. Neither was wobbler's (cervical vertebral instability) or bone cancer. (the 3 C's) (the 3 big things to watch out for in particular) But he did get liver disease (copper storage and chronic active hepatitis) and stomach cancer, not a type that is inherent in Dobes. He had some other issues too. But I won't take this thread off for too long. Anyhow, you do your research as best you can. I love the breed but it is not a healthy breed. So, that is why I didn't get another. I was beyond heart broken when my Dobe died at age 4.


Really sorry to hear that  If even someone as obviously conscientious as you could not prevent a Dobe from suffering this kind of fate, I'm going to rule out the breed.

Kevin


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