# Personality changed after Neuter....common?



## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

I wanted to add this dog have been checked for health problems including neurological problems and he keeps coming back with a clean bill of health.

He is a 1 year old Toy poodle


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

My gut reaction to this is that maybe something traumatic happened to him while he was at the vet's to make him fearful and distrusting. From my childhood experiences with a little chihuahua, it can happen fairly easily with the little guys. I hope they figure it out soon, poor little fella.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I think it is a coincidence. I think he was coming into his second fear period: http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html. and for some reason (training, naturally poor temperament) he did not come out the other side as a good citizen.

If everything else has been tried, have they tried NOT being so nice? How about sending this bully to boot camp. Get a prong collar. Leash him up anytime he is out of crate. Implement Nothing in Life is Free training. Keep him off of all furniture. All food is hand fed and only after he performs some act of service/obedience. Teach him tricks/obedience commands. Give him a job to do. If he is running through his paces, he will not have time to worry about having to beat up on other dogs. I have seen this work for another bratty Toy Poodle so it couldn't hurt to try.


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

I know they have done everything the behaviorist has told them to do. And after this incident with their daughter they said he will no longer be in their home. They were going to put him down but the behaviorist is planning on taking him. The behaviorist feels that maybe the environment he is in is way too stressful. 2 kids and 2 other dogs.

Now their other dogs 1 is an Agility champ and the other is awesome with obedience but has yet to compete.

They are good owners and would do anything for their dogs, but they feel they can't help this dog and that is might have been a mistake taking him. The last year has been hell for them and these aren't the kind of people to just give up on a dog.

They have had a few challenging cases in the past but nothing like this. 

There other dogs are a Papillon and a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever

I wanted to add as well that they do have one of the best behaviorists in the area and I totally trust his judgement. He does do the NILF training he recommends it highly and I like that he will not physically force a dog into submission like many behaviorist around here do (and unsuccessfully at that)


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I think it is a coincidence. I think he was coming into his second fear period: http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html. and for some reason (training, naturally poor temperament) he did not come out the other side as a good citizen.
> 
> If everything else has been tried, have they tried NOT being so nice? How about sending this bully to boot camp. Get a prong collar. Leash him up anytime he is out of crate. Implement Nothing in Life is Free training. Keep him off of all furniture. All food is hand fed and only after he performs some act of service/obedience. Teach him tricks/obedience commands. Give him a job to do. If he is running through his paces, he will not have time to worry about having to beat up on other dogs. I have seen this work for another bratty Toy Poodle so it couldn't hurt to try.


Wish I had known about this when I was younger. Thanks.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I spoke with one of my vets about this when I managed a humane society as this was a question I was asked quite often (since we REQUIRED spay/neuter on every adopted animal). The way my veterinarian described it made complete sense to me... He said, neutering will not change PERSONALITY, but it may change or eliminate certain BEHAVIORS that some unneutered dogs may have (marking, roaming, aggression, etc.)

Personality is not generally determined by presence or absence of testosterone/estrogen, etc. It is determined by genetics, nature, nurture, environment, etc...

I agree with cbrand that maybe this pup needs a stronger hand (not mean or harsh - just more assertive) Let him understand that his attitude is not appreciated or accepted and he needs to knock it off.

It's a tough situation - I've never had anything like this happen (to my knowledge) with any of the thousands of animals we had spayed/neutered through the humane society - I'm sure I would've heard about it from an unhappy owner if it had!!

Hopefully they'll be able to find a resolution and won't have to rehome him, but the kids need to come first - and if he's not happy there either then no one wins...

Let us know what happens!


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

Now there vet mentioned it could have something to do with the fact he was a runt. And that runts can have a lot of problems (and yes he came from bad breeding). It was also mentioned by another professional that perhaps teh anestisia messed with his mind a bit. Or even something could be off with his wiring.

The vet I know feels it wasn't the neuter but agrees it could have something to do with the anestisia and that this sometimes does happen with dogs.



Oh and an update: The behaviorist took the dog about a half hour ago but said he would keep the family informed on the dogs progress and let them know if he is able to adopt him out.
The family just let me know when they called to set up a playdate with my poodle and terrier with their dogs. I have to say though that they are all crushed, but they had the behaviorist pick the dog up while the kids were at school in order to cusion the blow (kids said good bye this morning). The whole family is upset because they just couldn't do anymore for him


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

You may have to go back to the question: Why was the original breeder trying to put the dog to sleep? Runt? I don't think size could have been an issue since the Tiny Toys are in high demand and they actually command a higher price. 

What did the breed know?


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

cbrand said:


> You may have to go back to the question: Why was the original breeder trying to put the dog to sleep? Runt? I don't think size could have been an issue since the Tiny Toys are in high demand and they actually command a higher price.
> 
> What did the breed know?



They were at the vet with their NSDTR when the woman came in with the puppy (she was a hobby breeder, she said she bred her female because she thought she would make cute puppies.) Anyways there were 4 pups in the litter. She kept one. She sold 2 at 7 weeks of age (which is actually illegal in a lot of places around here but not here, you can still get away with selling at 6 weeks which isn't good). And this puppy at 14 weeks of age she was unable to sell and she said she can't afford to keep him around and he isn't going to bring her in any money so she was going to put him down because no one was interested in him.

That is all they know and I know. But from personal experience I do know how many problems a runt can have.

Infact I know how many problems these bred down byb dogs Tiny Toys and Teacups have. I have 3 relatives that have 1 and none of them are healthy, now there health problems presented later. My parents dog (tiny toy poodle) has seizures, liver problems, and breathing problems which showed up around 2 years of age. (Breeder actually got shut down for being a puppy mill a few months ago, they thought she was a reputable breeder) Amazingly at age 5 she is still here. But I doubt she will make it even to 8 years old. My cousin has a Teacup Poodle and he has seizures and major temperment problems that began after the seizures (believed to be neurological)....they are having to put the dog down this week. And I have an aunt who had one that was just a runt it was a poodle/Chihuahua mix and the dog died 3 weeks after bringing her home, she had a blood sugar problem that no one picked up on. Like she was born diabetic or something.

So I do think him being a runt could have something to do with it I just don't know what


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I agree with the NILIF training. I am glad he is going in a different home (nothing against your friend!!). Perhaps it was too stressful an enviornment. 

I dont believe it had anything to do with the neuter. I also dont know What the vet you were talking to was thinking about the anesthesia affecting behavior! The anesthesia (esp gas) leaves the system very quickly. Gas in a matter of minutes, and injectables in a matter of hours. NONE of these drugs have Any affect on lingering behavior. 

I have mixed feelings on rehomeing an Aggressive dog that is actually going after people.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

bigpoodleperson said:


> I dont believe it had anything to do with the neuter. I also dont know What the vet you were talking to was thinking about the anesthesia affecting behavior! The anesthesia (esp gas) leaves the system very quickly. Gas in a matter of minutes, and injectables in a matter of hours. NONE of these drugs have Any affect on lingering behavior.


Even though the anesthetic clears the system pretty quickly, it's possible for the animal to have lingering brain damage if the person administering the anesthetic is an idiot. One of the vet practices when I grew up was notorious among local vet techs for OD'ing animals. Pure sloppiness. A freaked out animal would resist going under, so they'd give it another shot. Then the animal would have too much anesthetic in its system and would stop breathing.  

I'm glad the dog is going to a behaviorist for training and evaluation. It seems like the best chance for him.


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