# Difficult puppy? Or typical poodle?



## CharismaticMillie

Sounds like you do have a challenging puppy on your hands! 

These behaviors do not seem typical of poodles to me. The growling is not typical behavior from a poodle. 

It sounds like you may want to explore the possibility of using corrections in addition to positive reinforcement. This may help the puppy understand what you are asking and more quickly learn that listening to you is NOT an option.

Hopefully some people on the forum can give you some good advice!


----------



## cbrand

ziggylu said:


> In a nutshell...he's very very aloof. And independent. Additionally he has a very strong personality(very dominant) and is also very reactive. This is a lot in a 4 1/2 month old puppy! (he's also very intelligent!


Yikes! Very poor temperament. While not common, I have seen this sort of thing before in Poodles and I really, really don't like it. A well bred Poodle with good temperament should get up in the morning and say, "What can I do for you today!"



> He is resistant to much of the work we ask him to do, including basic "look at me" exercises....we are still getting a lot of growling and challenges when we work with him.


Not good. I have seen this sort of behavior go south very quickly. I know a Standard Poodle who has a very dominant personality. He resented being corrected and ended up physically challenging his owner in everything. He even nailed her once when she tried to stop him from taking food off the table.



> this week he has become highly reactive on walks, barking and lunging at other dogs, walkers, joggers, trying to chase cars. I"m trying to get him to focus on me but not having much luck. I stop, stand on the leash, wait for him to look at me, try and break his gaze at the distraction, praise when i do get his attention but am each distraction seems to create more reaction...


Typically I tell people to redirect their dog's attention to keep them from staring and posturing but you are really stuck with a dog who doesn't give a fig about what you want. I hate using Haltis, but I might actually recommend one in this case. You will be able to physically turn him away from whatever has grabbed his attention. 



> Suggestions? Ideas? Is this normal??


No it is not normal. In fact it is not good. Suggestion? I would return this dog to the breeder in a heart beat. In my experience, when a Poodle has this type of temperament, it just goes from bad to worse. I don't know if the breeder will give you a refund or a replacement dog (don't get a puppy with similar breeding) but I'd personally take the financial hit. I think this dog is going to be serious trouble in the future.


----------



## ziggylu

Thank you for the reply, Chocolate Millie. 

I"m relunctant to try firmer correctiosn with him for a couple reasons. First, if he's already not bonding with us, I"m relunctant to make him more aloof or distrustful of us by creating fear, etc when we work with him. Also, I'm admittedly afraid of escalating his challenges. We went through a very agressive mouthy phase early one that is one thing we've seen some real improvement with, though we do still get some growling and challenging when we do any work regarding spatial respect(ie creating space bubbles around hte greyhound when he's resting). 

I know part of the issue is he has little opportunity to interact with other dogs. The greyhoudn doens't like to play with him because he is so strong with the greyhoudn and won't back off when the greyhound is done playing. He's OK with hte larger pups in class when they get some off-leash tiem at the end of class. There's one pup particulalry that he plays well with but when I asked them if they would be interested in having the puppies play together they declined. I'm hesitant to take him to the dog park. My experiences at the dog parks here in the Phoenix area have not been positive and it seems like a recipe for disaster, particularly given the challenges we already have with him. I have talked about getting him to play with my girlfriend's Airdale who is great with other dogs and will pursue that. (if anyone has a great with dogs standard poodle in phoenix that might want to be play wiht our puppy...i'd love to meet you!  )

As background, he's not a puppy mill puppy. We bought him from a local breeder that does very few breedings(every couple years). He was part of a large 11 puppy litter. he was one of three remaining puppies when we contacted the breeder. The other two we were told she was keeping. He was definitely the most dominant of the three when we watched them interact but interacted appropriately with the older dogs in the home. He lived in the house but I am not sure, in hindsight, how much socializaiton he had with people outside of the house(single woman). I'm guessing had we brought him home at 8 weeks things might be going a bit better but he missed some key/important socialization since he was 12 weeks when we brought him home and he may not have been getting that work there. We met the mother, grandmother, and cousins from the breeding. They all seemed like calm, nice dogs. We did not meet the father. We were told this was a "middle of the pack" puppy....makes me wonder what the proverbial "top dog" from this litter is like! (we can't confirm or deny this description since we never saw him interact with the whole litter). 

Healthwise, she had done all the appropriate testing. We have had some issues testing doesn't cover....we had to have the lower canine baby teeth removed as they had punctured the upper palate of his mouth. We're waiting right now for the adults to come in and see if they are going to present the same problem so we have a dentist address that as soon as possible if it does look to be an issue. We assumed mouth pain was causing some of the early problems we had with him but that was taken care of when he was almost 14 weeks old(and while we had intended to wait til he was 6 mos old he was neutered at this time as well since he had to be put under to remove the teeth). he had a UTI which has cleared up. He was having ear issues and scratching a lot but a change of food seems to have helped that. He seems to finally be feeling well now. 

Sorry for the long ramblings. I'm getting a bit down about the situation as we seem to not be making forward momentum. Puppies, while challenging and demanding, should be fun! For us and the puppy! I'm a graduate student starting back to class next week and had hoped to have some sound foundations developed and routines established when class started back but we seem to still be at square one. Additionally, my husband hoped to do agility which is why we looked at Poodles to begin with. He's starting to wonder if the puppy will ever be able to be on an agility course if he has so much trouble working with us at home....


----------



## Purley

I have trained lots of dogs, but no poodles. I would not allow growling at people or other dogs from ANY breed, however young. I would be grabbing his collar and giving him a shake and saying "Cut it out" or "Stop that" or something that gives him the impression that you are in charge and growling is not allowed. 

He sounds very much like my son's Goldendoodle. We had him in two obedience classes and I had him on a chain training collar, because he also lunged at other dogs and the trainer. Mind you he was just being friendly, he wasn't aggressive and never has been. He also got tested and he has very high prey drive. If the neighbour's cat comes in their yard and he catches it - it will be dead! 

The trainer at my class suggested we put him on a pinch collar, but Sue Ailsby (you can google her - she is a dog trainer) said that she doesn't like pinch collars because they are intended to hurt the dog. 

Of course, there are other trainers like the one at my class, that think a pinch collar is the only way with a big strong dog like this. One of the trainers suggested using a pinch collar and a chain collar, with the leash on the chain collar and a shoe lace on the pinch collar, and only holding the shoe lace when the dog lunges and allowing the dog to correct itself.

I posted the above before the previous posts, but it came after. I tend to agree with the others, I would consider returning the dog. Of course, its totally NOT your fault, but it sounds like you don't really like him and so returning him does not seem like it would be a terrible wrench to you.


----------



## ziggylu

Actually, returning him would be difficult. I"ve never given up on a pet before. Do I like him? Heh. Difficult question...it has not been an easy road with him. I don't dislike him. It's been so challenging working with him however. We keep hoping for the moment when we've "rounded the corner" but everytime things seem to be improving, hte next day it's like he says "time to up the ante" and take back what progress we had made. 

I've raised young horses, young birds, kittens but only had one other dog from a puppy. Of all the animals I've ever worked with however(i'm in my 40s and have had animals my whole life) he's been the most challenging so far. The responses here so far are confirming he's not a typical poodle. In some ways this really disappoints me as we were really excited to work with a standard poodle and see what kind of relationship would develop.


----------



## Rockporters

I'd keep him tethered to you in the house. Gate off an area for the greyhound so he has a place that's safe and can relax. Search the threads here on the board for more tips on this, I believe there was one started by Fluffyspoos a while back. Tethering and separating are an immediate solution while you work on training.

The lunging on a leash... I'd talk to your trainer about putting him in a prong collar. Not everyone agrees with them, but the lunging isn't healthy for you or the dog. At least you should be able to control him then as you're training, and it might help you get his attention. I walk Jasper using a prong. Before switching you could feel where he was destroying his throat from all the pulling .

I'd make him work for everything. Nothing is free. He should have to work for food, treats, etc.. Make him sit before going out the door, make him sit before coming back in the door. When doing "leave it", treat immediately if he turns to look at you, then praise praise praise. 

Try games like "touch" to get him focused on you. When he touches your hand/fist say "touch" then treat. It doesn't take them long to learn this game. Move your hand up/down/side to side, switch between hands. "Touch", treat, "touch", treat... Don't keep the treat in the hand you're having him touch.

How are you teaching "look at me"? 

In the beginning Jasper wanted to be the big man on campus with our Toy Poodle. Obviously a bad idea given the size difference . Nat gets to do everything first. Nat goes in and out of the house first, he gets to eat and drink first, go up the stairs first... Jasper has to wait for all of those things. He still bothers Nat occasionally, but he's doing really well with "leave it". 

Good luck!


----------



## ziggylu

Thank you for the reply, Rockporters. I am tethering to keep him away from teh greyhound. This does help a lot. 

I haven't tried a prong yet. The lunging has only started this week. I know the trainer we work with currently is anti-prong. I worked with her with my greyhound puppy as well and she had a hard time agreeing to let me work him in a martingale back then. I'll talk to her tomorrow about the newest issues, I am concerned about his neck and throat...my guess is she's goign to push for a Halti. I have no experience with haltis, prongs or pinches myself. I"ve only ever used flat collars and martingales on my dogs. 

He is working for everything. Keep in mind this frustrates him. It's improved but it's not completely uncommon to get a bark at us when he has to sit for somethign he wants. He has to wait at every doorway - both in and out of the house and within the house. He is not permitted to lay on the greyhound's beds. he is not permitted to steal things from the greyhound(food, bullysticks, toys, etc). We train "leave it" with food and he's doign OK with it but we were advised to not use food when asking him to leave the greyhound. He is smart enough that we have had some issues iwth him making a game of doing something we don't want him to do to receive the reward for "leaving it" 

We started training look at me but clicking and rewarding whenever he looked at us. Then we added in "look" as the verbal command. He'll do this for food, we're having trouble without food still. Even with food it does not work outside the house. This includes in the yard. 

I'm not saying we're doing everything 100% correct. Far from it, we have no idea how to work with a dog like this! My girlfriend who has had terriers her whole life tells me he's a terrier in a poodle body.....!


----------



## Rockporters

I'm not a fan of the halti collar. It might keep them from pulling you over, but I've not found it to be helpful for moving them over to a regular collar eventually. Because of showing I WANT people to touch Jasper and a halti seems to discourage people from asking. I've also been known to ask people to peel back his lips for a teeth check LOL, needless to say they're hesitant if in a halti. If used properly the prong will not damage his throat like a choke or regular collar. But everyone has different tastes and methods. Do what works for you and your dog. 

They are smart creatures. I refuse to train "come" with food. Then again Jasper is a velcro dog and if he's more than 5' away he's either trapped somewhere or being held hostage LOL. I started with food for "leave it" when bothering the Toy Poodle and kitten. I'm slowly weaning him off the treats and just using party voice praise.

Jasper has been known to try to "psych" us out when aiming for a treat. I can tell when he's up to something because he does a certain glance back to make sure we're paying attention. (he finds himself quite amusing) When the lips/paws don't touch the kitten, and he's glancing back to see if I'm paying attention, he's after the treat/praise instead of the kitten. It's hard work staying a step ahead of these guys!

Is he barking at you when sitting out of bad attitude, or is he excited? It's not uncommon for them to bark when excitedly waiting for something.


----------



## ziggylu

I don't claim to be an expert but it appears to be attitude and not excitement. He gets frustrated very easily and will bark and growl. The trainer we works with has indicated it's frustration as well. 

It is also not uncommon for him to ask for something, say to go through a door or sit for a meal and then once we make him work for it decide he doesn't want it after all ( walk away from the food or the meal). 

We have been rewarding him coming to us with food in hopes of improving bonding.


----------



## Rockporters

I agree with the others, it might be good to consider returning him to the breeder. Personally, I wouldn't take another dog from them though. He may be the only one like this but who knows for sure. 

I know it's hard. Things are only going to get tougher from here. You have a long puppy stage left ahead of you and even the best behaved can be challenging at times. If you don't love him, and aren't bonding with him, it's only going to get worse and be more challenging as he grows.


----------



## Karma'sACat

I too would return him.
If you won't do that, I would look for a behaviorist to work with you. This is not normal and I think you need more than just a trainer to help you. Int. Assoc. of Animal Behavior Consultants is a site where you can search for behaviorists in your area. I would avoid anyone who wants you to challenge your dog since that would likely set you and him up for failure (and possibly a bite!).


----------



## Rockporters

BTW is your Greyhound a male? If so, I wonder how your Standard would do in a home with a female or as the only dog.


----------



## ziggylu

Our greyhound is a 9 year old neutered male. He's been with us since he was 9 weeks old. He grew up with a female greyhound who left us this past June at 14 1/2 years old. He's got a pretty mild temperment. He's generally very sweet and very happy go lucky. Up until this summer he's never felt like he's had a bad day but between losing his best bud and now being intimidated by the puppy he's not a very happy camper.  

I suspect yes, the puppy would do better as an only dog. He'd still be aloof, independent, reactive and difficult however. 

Thank you for the IAABC website. There is only one person listed in the Phoenix area. I just hung up with her...sigh...I feel like I"m full of excuses but...she's 74 years old and recovering from a stroke. She wasn't quite all there. though she did tell me to return the puppy(and buy a visla! :doh

I do like our trainer a lot...we worked with her with our greyhound puppy and our older greyhound who was very spooky(afraid of ceiling fans to the point she lived under a desk for a year when we first moved here). She studied for several years with Ian Dunbar in Hawaii. She is not all about the clicker nor luring with food however and we do use body language, space etc in our training. She has not (yet) suggested the puppy's problems are not fixable...because she is very positive perhaps! LOL She does indicate he is very dominant, reactive and independent.


----------



## Rockporters

If you like your trainer that's great! If you're not making the progress you think that you should though, it doesn't hurt to consult with others in the area. Not every dog responds to the same methods of training. Sometimes it takes thinking out of the box to overcome challenges. Tough love and all! 

Sorry the IAABC didn't work out. Sounds like she must live in Sun City . 

I assume you're using a crate? Important to give yourself breaks too.


----------



## Beach girl

Especially because of your greyhound and because of your plans to start back to grad school soon, I would also chime in with those who are recommending returning the dog to the breeder. He MIGHT be trainable in the hands of someone who could give him full-time attention, without another dog around who might fall victim to him, but that's a big "might" right there. 

You have done so much for him and you are taking a well-educated, balanced approach to him, yet in the end, you are afraid of a 4 1/2 month old puppy. He is going to be a much larger dog before you know it. You don't want to wait until some tragedy happens.

This is not at all a normal poodle temperament. I have minis, not standards, but also had the experience of introducing the larger one, as a puppy, to the smaller, older one. The puppy wanted to play more than the older boy did, but he knew to back off when Dog Number One told him, in doggie language, to knock it off. A puppy who does not respect the language coming from your greyhound is not a dog you can trust to leave alone in the house with the older dog.

It doesn't sound like a happy situation all around.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. Please don't look at as a personal failure, but as a learning eperience. And please don't think this is a normal poodle; definitely is not.


----------



## pudel luv

Ziggylu, I really feel for your situation as early puppyhood, although exhausting, should still be fun. As others have stated, your boy's behavior is atypical for a poodle. 

You sound like you have been diligent with the training and care of your pup.
Has your vet done a full assessment to rule out any physical issues? Was your pup overly vaccinated? What was his home life like between 8 - 12 weeks, before you purchased him? What advice has the breeder offered up to this point? If you plan to keep your pup and work with a professional, you may want to inform the breeder of your plan and how long you are willing to do so. 

When you are putting in the time and energy that you have been, it is disheartening when the results are minimal. It is especially hard, if the pup is not showing the typical love and enthusiasm we expect in a healthy, happy puppy. Are there moments when you can sit and snuggle with your pup? Does he ever seem content? If yes, then perhaps there is HOPE. 

By the way, what is your pup's name? 
Wishing you strength and resolution eace:.


----------



## whitepoodles

cbrand said:


> Yikes! Very poor temperament. While not common, I have seen this sort of thing before in Poodles and I really, really don't like it. A well bred Poodle with good temperament should get up in the morning and say, "What can I do for you today!"
> 
> 
> 
> Not good. I have seen this sort of behavior go south very quickly. I know a Standard Poodle who has a very dominant personality. He resented being corrected and ended up physically challenging his owner in everything. He even nailed her once when she tried to stop him from taking food off the table.
> 
> 
> Typically I tell people to redirect their dog's attention to keep them from staring and posturing but you are really stuck with a dog who doesn't give a fig about what you want. I hate using Haltis, but I might actually recommend one in this case. You will be able to physically turn him away from whatever has grabbed his attention.
> 
> 
> 
> No it is not normal. In fact it is not good. Suggestion? I would return this dog to the breeder in a heart beat. In my experience, when a Poodle has this type of temperament, it just goes from bad to worse. I don't know if the breeder will give you a refund or a replacement dog (don't get a puppy with similar breeding) but I'd personally take the financial hit. I think this dog is going to be serious trouble in the future.




TOTALLY AGREE !!!!
This is not poodle personality nor true character in the breed. However there are some who will exhibit poor temperament due to genetics, and/or how the breeder socialized (if at all) her puppies.
Breeders I believe must do temperament testing in order to know into which homes to place each puppy. Your breeder obviously does not believe in temperament testing or else sh/he would of seen this type of aloofness and non typical to the breed behavior.
I regret to tell you that this dog WILL expand his horizons and will eventually challenge you and members of your family as well as strangers and any/and all humans who will stand in his way or whom he MAY feel challenged by.
This is a YOUNG 5 mos. old puppy, imagine what he will be like at a year old or older. This does not get better trust me and trust C. Brand.. she knows what she is talking about and I highly suggest to you to NOT continue working with this dog but return him ASAP to his breeder and have her deal with him.
If she is knowledgeable and knows her line and cares about each puppy she sells she will find him a suitable home with an owner who knows what they are doing and has had experience with this type of temperament or better yet with an obedience instructor who can and does deal with such temperaments. This dog will only give you sad tales of loss. A dog posessing such temperament is and never will be a happy dog. Poodles are people loving, they aim to please, they are NEVER aloof or uncaring.. and this type of character is the furthest from a poodle's temperament. 
for your sake and the sake of your family return the dog and do not feel that you did not do your best to curb his behavior or try to correct it.. My feeling is that this dog will never be different.. If he is this much dog at 5 mos. old he will only expand his horizons to be worse as he matures. Return him to his breeder, forgo asking for your money back and move on.


----------



## ziggylu

Thanks everyone for your replies and straightforward input. I have been hesitant to ask this question as I am a new poodle owner and admit, while I have had good luck in the past with a puppy and with a very spooky rescue dog, I am no training expert. I appreciate everyone being honest but kind in their replies. I guess I was afraid of being told it was all my fault, I wasn't trying hard enough, and how terrible it is to consider returning the dog.

I've been really down all day about this. We had a terrible walk this morning. Cosmo(the puppy) was in his crate for the morning(he doesn't complain about his crate....I guess he doesn't have to interact with us so it's a good thing). I took him out, fed him lunch in one of his Puzzle toys, and then he napped in the office with me tethered to the desk. 

I took him to the groomer for face and feet trim. He's been there before. we handle him several times a day. the breeder is a groomer and had been working with him. He still ran out of patience and snarled at the groomer. We got home, we were two feet in the front door and he lunged and snarled at the greyhound. I put him in time out in the bathroom, then let him out. he mouthed at me and went back in the bathroom. Came out calm this time. I let him out in the yard. When I went to let him, he mouthed at me when I went to put the leash back on. Door closed. Try again. He let put me the leash on this time, waited until given permission to enter, then came in and mouthed at my foot(whole mouth over the foot, but at least inhibited). Out he went again. Back in, this time better. Next up the water dish. I asked him to sit and then lay down. He sat then refused to lay down. I set the bowl on the counter and walked away(he was tethered to my kitchen cart). I came back....he laid down but wouldn't wait when asked....this went on a few minutes with me walking away. The barking started, then a growl and then finlaly he laid down, waited and then was given permission to approach the bowl. More barking and lunging at the greyhound when he saw him. I have him in the office with me now, he's happily chewing on a bully stick but again this involves no interaction with us. He's happy when he's chasing his toy on a stick in the yard but again, he' not really interacting with us(though we're holding the stick). 

When we try loosening things up with him thinking things are too "militant" he gets mouthier and the attitude gets even worse. We feel like we're doomed if we do, doomed if we don't. 

Sign.....this is what it's like all day. i realize we're contributing in some way(unconsciously...we don't beat him, we don't mistreat him, we are trying with good honext intentions to work with him). It's hard after nearly 7 weeks of hard work to feel like we're not getting anywhere and things are getting worse instead of better. And it's hard when there aren't a lot of moments where we laugh at his silly puppy antics.

I haven't yet spoken with the breeder. It's only been this week where I'm starting to admit we're in a really bad situation...as things have been escalating this week when they should be improving after classes and private sessions. I will call her this weekend. I know she's going to be unhappy about him being neutered early but really he's not breedable anyhow. We woudl have waited but agreed with the vet that it was better not to put him under twice...and he's had a difficult personality from the get go so we did think it might help prevent future problems. 

As for medical work ups...he's had full bloodwork and it checks out OK. He had a UTI and is finishing up some ATBs for that. He had the issue with teh baby canines puncturing the upper palate but those were removed over four weeks ago and he's healed fine from that. the vet considers him very healthy. He's had his DHPP series of shots but tha'ts it so far. I was going to do rabies at 6 months. 

Thank you again for the input. It is much appreciated.


----------



## Beach girl

I think it's good news that the bite was inhibited when he was mouthy with your feet.

This dog could probably work out with someone, probably someone with no other dog and definitely no young children. Someone who is dog-savvy and has the time to devote to making this a full-time project. 

It's not terrible to recognize that he is not a good fit for your household. Ideally you should be looking at a dog you can live with for 12 - 15 years. It doesn't sound like Cosmo is it. 

Definitely he should not be bred, for both physical and psychological reasons, so the breeder should be grateful to you for having neutered him already.


----------



## DoeValley Poodles

Ziggylu,
You have a great knowlegde of dog behavior and have done many things right. Please stay away from pinch, prong, choke etc. collars. They will only make this issue worse. If he learns that an approaching dog equals pain, the association will only lead to more lunging, barking, and out right fear of other dogs. He will do what's necessary to get them to go away. He will become more reactive not better. Or you will supress his growl/warning system and he will react without warning which could be very bad (could bite a person or dog). Really need to find well socialized/adjusted appropiate dogs he can interact with. Keep leashes very loose so they can read body language and interact as dogs do without being constricted. The older appropiate dog will only put up with so much and correct him if needed. He needs a lot of appropiate play & interactions with other dogs. Easier said then done, especially since everyone thinks their dog is friendy & well socialized. Definately stay away from off leash dog parks with him, it could really set him back. The book "Fiesty Fido" by Patricia McConnell may help you a lot. He will be a challenge. Scruff shaking, alpha rollovers etc. will also backfire. Dogs are by nature quicker, smarter, and are built to bite. They will win and the behavior will continue to worsen.


----------



## whitepoodles

I guess I was afraid of being told it was all my fault, I wasn't trying hard enough, and how terrible it is to consider returning the dog.

I've been really down all day about this. We had a terrible walk this morning. Cosmo(the puppy) was in his crate for the morning(he doesn't complain about his crate....I guess he doesn't have to interact with us so it's a good thing). I took him out, fed him lunch in one of his Puzzle toys, and then he napped in the office with me tethered to the desk. 

I took him to the groomer for face and feet trim. He's been there before. we handle him several times a day. the breeder is a groomer and had been working with him. He still ran out of patience and snarled at the groomer. We got home, we were two feet in the front door and he lunged and snarled at the greyhound. I put him in time out in the bathroom, then let him out. he mouthed at me and went back in the bathroom. Came out calm this time. I let him out in the yard. When I went to let him, he mouthed at me when I went to put the leash back on. Door closed. Try again. He let put me the leash on this time, waited until given permission to enter, then came in and mouthed at my foot(whole mouth over the foot, but at least inhibited). Out he went again. Back in, this time better. Next up the water dish. I asked him to sit and then lay down. He sat then refused to lay down. I set the bowl on the counter and walked away(he was tethered to my kitchen cart). I came back....he laid down but wouldn't wait when asked....this went on a few minutes with me walking away. The barking started, then a growl and then finlaly he laid down, waited and then was given permission to approach the bowl. More barking and lunging at the greyhound when he saw him. I have him in the office with me now, he's happily chewing on a bully stick but again this involves no interaction with us. He's happy when he's chasing his toy on a stick in the yard but again, he' not really interacting with us(though we're holding the stick). 

When we try loosening things up with him thinking things are too "militant" he gets mouthier and the attitude gets even worse. We feel like we're doomed if we do, doomed if we don't. 

Sign.....this is what it's like all day. 


Zygiloo:

Are you saying that this 4.5 mos. old young pup snarled at HIS OWN BREEDER/GROOMER AND THE BREEDER DID NOT ADVISE YOU TO RETURN HIM BACK NOR HAS SHE DONE ANYTHING ABOUT IT???????

Sorry girl, I AM a breeder and as a breeder I highly advise you to speak to the breeder and return this dog to her IMMEDIATELY whether she likes it or not.
As a breeder it is quite clear to me that your breeder does NOT care what she breeds and condones this behavior showing NO interest in taking this puppy back rather being (most probably) upset at the prospect of her breeding being returned to her.
Do yourself and your family a huge favor and return this dog immediately to where he belongs, with his breeder who should take responsibility for breeding such temperament and put the oneness on herself to either correct this immediately or find a suitable home for this puppy. I doubt this dog will ever be positively integrated into any family or ever form a bond with any human or dog.
Since I do temperament testing on all puppies prior to sale and do not only count on my knowledge of each pup's temperament but rely on the Volhard method, I can say without a doubt that this puppy will score mostly 6's on the temperament test.
A puppy who scored mostly 6's out of the 10 temperament tests is: An

An independent puppy who does not need you or anyone else to bond to. He does not care if he is trained or not, he is his own person and unlikely to bond to anyone in or outside of your family to include your other dog. Since he does not need you or anyone he does not care to form any bond.
He will most likely make a fantastic guard dog for a gas station, and we here all know none of us believe in putting any dog through this task.
Do NOT take this puppy and think you can change him into a loving bundle of joy, you cant and you wont.
It is wonderful to have a good loving dog, one that is easy to train , one that you can comfortably live with and be safe with as well as proud of, than one that is a constant struggle.
It is NOT this puppy's fault he was born this way, or (maybe) lacked proper socializtion at his breeder's home, either way, his breeder has to face reality and be responsible for her breeding and instead of allowing this puppy to continue living with you , take him back, especially when he growled at her, the hand that initially took him out of his dam's womb and weaned him. 
I admire and have alot of respect for you for the time you allocated to this puppy and the hard work you had put into him. KUDOS TO YOU but this has to stop now.. 
I may sound harsh and mean.. but trust me.. I know what will happen if you dont. I hope you make the right decision.


----------



## Beach girl

*Whitepoodles*, I think she just meant that Cosmo was used to being groomed, since his own breeder was also a groomer, and used to being touched, but nevertheless snapped at this current groomer, who is not the breeder.

I agree with you though that it's probably time to admit defeat.

If it were me - and here is the sensitive part - considering the age of the greyhound, I would probably not get a younger dog until the greyhound has crossed that Rainbow Bridge. It sounds like it is very stressful for the older dog, and not fair to her. Her own health needs may soon have to take priority over training a new puppy, and that would lead to complicated situations too.


----------



## Olie

ziggylu said:


> I took him to the groomer for face and feet trim. He's been there before. we handle him several times a day. the breeder is a groomer and had been working with him. He still ran out of patience and snarled at the groomer.
> 
> I haven't yet spoken with the breeder. It's only been this week where I'm starting to admit we're in a really bad situation...as things have been escalating this week when they should be improving after classes and private sessions. I will call her this weekend. I know she's going to be unhappy about him being neutered early but really he's not breedable anyhow. We woudl have waited but agreed with the vet that it was better not to put him under twice...and he's had a difficult personality from the get go so we did think it might help prevent future problems.



I agree with most, No good breeder in their right mind would send a dog off in this way. She knew this too. Apparently you thought you could correct it and could not. Her experience should have told her that. 

Thankfully he is neutered! 

Sorry its turned out this way and good luck.


----------



## whitepoodles

Beach girl said:


> *Whitepoodles*, I think she just meant that Cosmo was used to being groomed, since his own breeder was also a groomer, and used to being touched, but nevertheless snapped at this current groomer, who is not the breeder.
> 
> I
> If it were me - and here is the sensitive part - considering the age of the greyhound, I would probably not get a younger dog until the greyhound has crossed that Rainbow Bridge. It sounds like it is very stressful for the older dog, and not fair to her. Her own health needs may soon have to take priority over training a new puppy, and that would lead to complicated situations too.


Beachgirl:
You are right I re read the post (was long) and I missed that part. Regardless.... Whether the pup snarled at his breeder or another breeder/groomer is irrelevant. The fact he snarled is what is relevant.

Regarding the comment that it is not fair to introduce a new puppy into a household with an older dog, I beg to differ, I have sold many a times a puppy to a client who owns an older dog and they always tell me that the new puppy is a new lease on life for their older dog, who enjoys so much playing with the young pup.
I do agree though that it wont be fair to introduce a young active puppy into a household where an older "frail and sick" dog lives but if the older dog is still healthy and well, there is no reason not to bring a new pup into the family. In most cases this is such a welcomed addition for the older dog.
This is a very special situation and even if Zigyloo would not have an older greyhound but one that is young and healthy, I still would of maintained she should return the standard puppy back to his breeder.


----------



## Beach girl

I introduced a puppy (Casey) into my home with an "older" dog (Pippin) too. Pippin was probably about 7, give or take a year, when we got Casey. Pip is our rescue dog, so we're really not sure of his age.

This worked out fine, so it's not that I'm opposed in general terms to having a pup with an older dog. Just depends on the particular dog. It sounds like the elderly greyhound here is stressed out by it. As of course nearly any dog would be, in this particular situation.

I don't know that much about greyhounds and how well they adapt to newcomers generally, of course. They are generally quiet and shy dogs, aren't they?

Ziggylou, I apologize if I've overstepped any boundaries on that issue. After this very unfortunate experience with the poodle, I just hope your greyhound is not psychologically or physically harmed in any way. Hope she returns to being the same sweet girl she was before he came on the scene.


----------



## whitepoodles

Beach girl said:


> I introduced a puppy (Casey) into my home with an "older" dog (Pippin) too. Pippin was probably about 7, give or take a year, when we got Casey. Pip is our rescue dog, so we're really not sure of his age.
> 
> This worked out fine, so it's not that I'm opposed in general terms to having a pup with an older dog. Just depends on the particular dog. It sounds like the elderly greyhound here is stressed out by it. As of course nearly any dog would be, in this particular situation.
> 
> I don't know that much about greyhounds and how well they adapt to newcomers generally, of course. They are generally quiet and shy dogs, aren't they?
> 
> Beachgirl:
> I must sound very harsh and intense about this subject , that most probably stems from having the same experience as Zigyloo has with her new pup.
> 19 years ago I too purchased a male puppy from a breeder and this dog turned to be dog aggresive and I had to leash him everywhere I went. It was VERY hard for both my husband and I to handle him as he was unpredictable and unfriendly to some people and all dogs. Living life with a dog you can not trust and one you consistently have to worry about both in your house and outside of it can lead to stress and discomfort. You always have to be on guard and worry what he may or may not do and it is so uneasy to own a dog like this and have to deal with his issues on a daily basis. So I do speak from experience here. I kept this boy in my house until he was 4 years old , but when I purchased my first show female and started my breeding program, I had found a suitable home for this boy and put him in responsible and knowledgeable hands. He lived to 17 and died of old age, never a health issue. He was a wonderful pet to them. They walked him on a leash and never exposed him to dog parks or other dogs.. They knew his issues and were on top of them consistently.
> Greyhounds are very gentle animals. They do not usually have aggresion issues. They adapt to their environment and adoptive families easily and from what I heard make wonderful pets.
> Cosmo's behavior and temperament would of challenged any breed not necessarily only a greyhound. Cosmo is not the type of dog that should be trusted with another dog be it a greyhound or a rottweiller. He will challenge any dog, and human and will always want to have the upper hand and if he does not he will not back away from any situation. and this is what I believe makes such a dog dangerous to other dogs, society and to himself.


----------



## penny_ann

Sorry to hear about the issues you are having with your pup. Sounds like you are getting alot of good advice. Don't feel like a failure, doesn't sound like this pup wants to be a part of the family.


----------



## ziggylu

Oh my...I didn't intend to create debate! :lol

1) The groomer today
This was not the breeder herself. This groomer has worked with Cosmo previously...and Cosmo has had a lot of handling as we do handling exercises daily and his breeder is a groomer and introduced him early to clippers, being handled, etc. I was frustrated this afternoon that at 18 weeks with handling work from a very early age and in a quiet salon he still snarled and snapped. 

2) The greyhound
He is 9. We've had him since he was 9 weeks old. He has a pretty mild temperment as many greyhounds do. He had bad separation anxiety as a puppy. He looked to our older greyhound for leadership. We lost her at 14 1/2 this past June. He was really lost without her. We debated another dog and decided it would be good for him, particularly with me in school. He's never been alone. He's also pretty outgoing and social(I've always joked that being raised with us and not at the racetrack he's more lab than greyhound) He's in very good health(touch wood) and I hope he lives to a ripe old age like our other greyhound did. I realize 9 IS a senior but I don't think of him that way nor does he act that way. He was interested in Cosmo at first and I think would be friends with a dog he was comfortable around. This is never a sure thing I guess though. Right now we don't know what we'd do if we do return Cosmo. Certainly nothing quickly. 

I think also, that the greyhoudn is in his way is contributing to the situation by sending mixed signals. He IS interested in Cosmo, then gets scared. He does not tell Cosmo to back off. If he wouldl do so it owuld be much easier. We are left to do this and try to manage the interactions. We don't have the experience for this as our older female greyhound was really good at putting the male in his place when he was a puppy and we could let her do that job. 

3) The Breeder

I think it is very important to be fair here. I have not spoken to her since the first week we brought Cosmo home. She does not know yet about our situation. She has not had a chance yet to give me input, offer to take the dog back, suggest resources, etc. She was very open when we met with her before buying the puppy. We met her dogs, including Cosmo's dam, granddam and cousins. They were all well-tempered dogs. I truly do not believe she tried to pull one over on us nor that he is representative of her typical breedings. She does do a lot right and overall we were impressed with her when we met her, visited her home, and in dealing with her regarding purchasing hte puppy. 

We have puppy class in the morning, We'll see how he does there with the other dogs. So far he's been interested but not out of control and has done well in the off leash time. I am interested to see if the changes we've seen at home this week will be reflected in the class situation as well.


----------



## Beach girl

Good luck, Ziggylu.

I apologize, I was mixed up on your greyhound's age. I thought the current one was 14 1/2; didn't realize that was the one who passed recently.

Age 9 should be ok to accept a new dog.

Would you consider a female? Some people say it's better to have one of each gender rather than two males. I've got two males myself and no problems, but just offering the suggestion.

And I will admit, that even though there are no problems with the two boys, Casey seems to love the ladies and the dogs he likes to romp with the most are females. Pippin doesn't seem to care one way or the other; his best buddy was the huge male golden retriever who lived next door. That dog, sadly, is no longer with us; died at a ripe old age and is dearly missed.

Also wanted to say that the very first poodle I ever owned snarled and snapped at the very first groomer I took him to, when he was about 17 weeks of age. (I got him at 12 weeks.) She said he needed "a lot of work with his temperament." News to me because at home he was always a sweetheart! I took him to someone else next time, and he was fine, good as gold. And never had any other problem with any other groomer the whole 12 years we had him. 

Your dog's problems of course sound much more severe than just a one-off snap at a groomer, though.

I do wish you luck with making your decision about what to do with him. I know you want to keep your family and your current dog safe. Poodles can be and should be such a joy to own; I feel so bad for you that you are going through this very untypical poodle experience.


----------



## Desiree

RETURN THE PUP NOW! I had a Spoo with a similar temperament problem. I mistakenly put up with this nonsense for 4 years; training and retraining this dog trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. This dog was fully on and of leashed trained retriever and she still would have to fight me on simple stuff like down stay after four years. The new popular training theory in this culture is the owner is bad and the dog is the innocent victim. Bull!! Your pup doesn't have a typical pet/poodle dog temperament and needs experienced handling NOW. 

He will probably do better in a single pet home. At your house, he will be fighting for position with your greyhound and will make your first dog's life a living hell. My girl used to wait until I left the room for minute then she'd start pushing my other dog around. She knew I wouldn't tolerate that garbage when I was around so she'd wait until I went into the bathroom or something. He finally started sleeping in the back room and would hardly come out because he was so stressed and intimidated. 

I don't know if you have/plan on having children or have them visit; but this dog will probably not be able to be around small kids without supervision at all times, extreme prey drive, reactive behavior and small kids don't mix. 

I feel bad for you because I know what your going through on a daily basis because I did it too. Seeing a glimmer of hope that your making progress for a few days maybe weeks then BAM right back to square one. Or seeing progress in one area while like focus but seeing increased aggression elsewhere. Been there, done that; time to move on. Sheesh, this is starting to sound like an AA meeting. LOL! Good Luck!


----------



## whitepoodles

I took him to the groomer for face and feet trim. He's been there before. we handle him several times a day. the breeder is a groomer and had been working with him. He still ran out of patience and snarled at the groomer. some way(unconsciously...we don't beat him, we don't mistreat him, we are trying with good honext intentions to work with him). It's hard after nearly 7 weeks of hard work to feel like we're not getting anywhere and things are getting worse instead of better. And it's hard when there aren't a lot of moments where we laugh at his silly puppy antics.

I haven't yet spoken with the breeder. 

Zygyloo:
This is where my confusion stems from. On one hand you state the breeder is a groomer and then later on say you have not yet spoken to the breeder.
I assumed when you wrote the breeder is a groomer that you were referring to Cosmo's breeder no one else..
Sorry if I confused the two.


----------



## Beach girl

Ziggylu, I thought of you last night. My husband went to bed before I did, and fell asleep. Officially, Casey is not allowed on the bed, but, um, he has been known to cheat, if there is a perfectly good side of the bed available to him that no one is occupying.

So Casey had jumped on to the bed and was all stretched out, sound asleep, on my side of the bed. 

I started to gently slide my hands under his shoulders and hips, to lift him off and put him into his own bed. Still nearly asleep, he started to growl softly.

I said "Hush, Casey, it's me. Time for your bed." And his eyes FLEW open, tail started wagging, and he rolled over, went into a crouching position and licked at my hands.

You could just see the little thought-bubble above his little poodle brain: "Oh, gosh, Mom, I'm so sorry, I thought you were a big bad burgler, I never would have hurt YOU, oh, I'm so, so sorry. Please forgive me."

And that is a normal poodle.


----------



## PaddleAddict

What a horrible situation. This is nothing close to a proper poodle temperament, not only that, most breeds don't behave this way...

Regardless of what you decide to do, you need to communicate everything that's been going on to your breeder. She needs to know what is going on with this pup she produced.


----------



## Teffy

I too have a personal story that is almost identical to yours Zygyloo (and many others). I didn't read everyone's post but your very first one and my heart started pumping and wanted to chime in as well.

I know of a mini poodle who, exhibited everything you described in your very first post, and the owner felt everything you are feeling as well and wanted to perservere. If you do not want to read what I'm about to type, read this before it's too late..._give Cosmo back to the breeder._

This poodle growled, snarled, and nipped her owners at 12 weeks and on. Hyper, noisy, independent, not eager to please, moody. The owner blamed herself, kept going to classes with us, the dog got worse and worse and worse. This dog bit her owners multiple times multiple places, owners' family members, nearly attacked me and eventually attacked my two poodles without warning and without cause. When I say without cause, I literally mean it...no possession were around, no actions...nada. GIVE COSMO BACK.

One wise doggy friend said that it could be just a bad match. This is harsh to say, but maybe you two weren't meant for each other and maybe Cosmo will be the good, biddable dog with a different owner? Your greyhound doesn't deserve to live his/her older years with a little terrorizer. It is not your fault, you're not being selfish or cruel, you just landed a breeder that didn't temperament test and/or didn't care to match appropriately.

BTW, be thankful Cosmo growls, don't encourage but DON'T discourage it. The day Cosmo stops warning you with a verbal indication, is the day you'll regret the most. Imagine if one of those annoying little park children decides to maul the pretty poodle while you're chatting away with someone....without warning...BAM. Or one of those annoying cyclists that use the sidewalk and rides too close. 

Return him, there is a more appropriate home waiting for him. Take a break from puppyhood, and find a breeder that temperament tests. From my experience with that mini poodle, I will never, EVER get a dog from a breeder who doesn't pay someone to do a proper temperament test. 

Beach girl described the typical poodle behaviour. You need to find yourself one.


----------



## Teffy

Oh, I forgot to say...I'm so so so so sorry you have to go through this, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Hang in there, and think things through. Keep us posted.
:grouphug:


----------



## whitepoodles

Return him, there is a more appropriate home waiting for him. Take a break from puppyhood, and find a breeder that temperament tests. From my experience with that mini poodle, I will never, EVER get a dog from a breeder who doesn't pay someone to do a proper temperament test. 
Beach girl described the typical poodle behaviour. You need to find yourself one.[/QUOTE]


Teffy:
I am in 100% agreement with all you have said here, however if I may permit myself to say,when it comes to Cosmo, I would never feel there would be such a thing as an appropriate home for this type of poodle. This puppy is way too far gone either because he was genetically born this way or due to lack of socialization,but my belief is that it is genetic in origin much more than merely due to lack of breeder's involvement with the litter. It would also be VERY interesting to find out and I would suggest Zigyloo ask the breeder to provide her with names of all clients who purchased puppies out of this litter so that Zygylook can find out if there were any other puppies with similar problems. The breeder owes her that much in my opinion moreover it will shed some light as to the problems that this breeder produces or may produce in future in her line. 
My honest opinion is that this dog should be returned ONLY to his breeder and NEVER re-homed. This puppy will expand his horizons and his behavior will not decrease with even the MOST experienced dog owner, rather it will escalate and his vying for top spot will be done through growls, intimidating mouthing, bitting and ultimately viciously attacking the owner, or worse yet, other people and/or their dogs. Not to mention the family having young children.. this would be a disaster... and this puppy would be a ticking time bomb in any household.
I have NEVER produced such a puppy and would be devastated if I ever do, but IF I do, I will own up to my breeding, be responsible and take the puppy back.. assess it and IF I covered all angles, seeked the professional opinion of dog behaviorists/psychologist and each came to the conclusion that the dog will not be suitable to live in any family situation, I will make the heartwrenching decision every responsible breeder should make and humanely euthanize the dog,... and...no questions asked spay and neuter his dam and sire, regardless if they have a good or bad temperament. If both produced such a puppy, I will never repeat that breeding, or ever use either of them to produce a litter. 
Some of you may think this is cruel, but actually when you think of the ramifications of allowing such a dog to continue living in other homes and keeping on re -homing him in the hope he will (may) find a suitable home is wrong. As a breeder to keep re-homing such a dog will only open her to legal lawsuits and continuous bad reputation. The breeder has to know that this situation is a no win situation for anyone and has to make the right choice for all involved. Any "responsible" breeding allowing such a dog to be part of a family is like allowing a criminally insane killer to roam the streets loose. 
The aforementioned last resort solution is only ofcourse after the breeder has exhausted all the means with which to get to the bottom of this dog's problem and if unsuccessful to do the right thing....as mentioned above.
Sorry for this lengthy post. .I was thinking alot about Zigyloo's situation and I just cant help but feel SO SORRY AND SO SAD for this puppy , as I KNOW deep in my heart that it is NOT his fault....and that he can not help be what he was born as. Such a shame.... this really saddens me to no end.


----------



## Purley

Years and years ago I had a friend who had a Samoyed that was showing signs of aggression. Because he had a Puppy in Show and he was her pet, she couldn't face putting him down. I said that she shouldn't pass the problem along to someone else She rehomed him. Some time later she phoned to say that the dog had bitten a child on the face and now she felt guilty. 

I could understand her reluctance. I must be terrible to have to put your dog down - but sometimes it's the only choice.


----------



## flufflvr

I've just been reading through this thread and I just feel really bad for you. I'm not a breeder, nor an expert. I just know and love poodles, and know that this is definitely not normal. This is really not your fault, and the people above who've given you advice really would tell you if it was. They don't sugarcoat things. The typical poodle can't wait to be with it's people, and they're so smart that they become experts at learning how to make you happy, often to the extent where they barely need a command, because they know what you're going to ask them to do, and the best reward you can give them is affection and closeness (as well as treats). To hear of a poodle who refuses commands, isn't motivated by treats, and really doesn't like interacting with you really doesn't sound like a poodle at all. I know there are different personalities within the breed, but really, they all have those traits in common. It sounds like Cosmo has some "mental illness" issues. I too would contact the breeder and work on rehoming him. I hope this experience doesn't turn you off from the breed though. They're typically not like this at all.


----------



## JE-UK

Wow.

ziggylu, if the pup is behaving like that WITH all of the extremely sensible and committed work you are putting into him, I can't imagine what he'd be like somewhere else.

Just to reiterate what everyone else has said, that is NOT typical poodle behaviour. Mine went through a period as a pup where he developed a misconception that he controlled his own personal space, but quickly learned that he had none  and cheerfully got over himself.

I always think that with the right motivation, any dog will work, but it sounds like you have tried all the possible motivations I would be able to think of. I find dogs that aren't food-driven REALLY difficult to train.

Best of luck, and very sorry that you aren't having the poodle-joy that I am finding so delightful.


----------



## poodleholic

> =ziggylu;111777]In a nutshell...he's very very aloof. And independent. Additionally he has a very strong personality(very dominant) and is also very reactive. This is a lot in a 4 1/2 month old puppy! (he's also very intelligent!  )


Describe aloof as it pertaiins to him. 
What do you mean by "strong Personality" and "very dominant?"



> We have been focusing on using positive reinforcement methods for him. The progress is very slow and in many ways seems to be regressing. After 6 weeks we still have difficulty workign with him to focus on us at home.


He's only 4 1/2 months old NOW, and you've been working with him for 6 weeks. Keep in mind that he's a baby. Babies have short attention spans. Training sessions should be kept very brief (5-min.). To keep his focus, YOU need to be more interesting than whatever is distracting him. Training sessions should be FUN, for both of you. 

I sit in the bathroom with the door shut when I train "watch me." Very effective. Got this tip from a fabulous trainer (Deb Davis). 



> There are few treats that we've foudn that are high value enough for him to focus. Toys don't motivate. He does seem to like praise but getting him to focus so that we can praise is difficult.


*Is he hungry when you're training*? He should be. Training treats should be factored in as part of his daily meals. It's important to remember to praise whenever you catch your puppy doing something you like, not saved just for training sessions. He's laying down quietly? GOOD DOG! C/T. Sitting nicely? GOOD DOG! C/T.

Try Natural Balance Food Rolls for training treats. They're like doggie crack, and they're good nutrition, unlike a lot of other "treats." You can slice and dice to whatever size you want. Braunswieger (liver sausage) is another high-value treat, as is garlic chicken. 



> He is resistant to much of the work we ask him to do, including basic "look at me" exercises....we are still getting a lot of growling and challenges when we work with him. We work in short spurts throughout the day and try not to bore him with too much repetition.


Ah, but here's the deal - repetition is the key, so that he "gets it." Once he knows "sit" in the kitchen, you need to train it in the living room, the bedroom, out in the back yard, and then the front yard. Take it to the park, the pet store, and so on. Diverse environments, and added distractions. He's very young. It could be that he's confused, and doesn't really understand what it is you want of him. Which may be the cause of his growling, although this behavior is often displayed by puppies who need more physical release AND mental stimulation. My Maddy was a puppy I was CERTAIN was nuts. She leaped and jumped at me, growled and carried on like she was insane. NOT. She was BORED STIFF with me, and was trying to engage me in wild, rough play - the kind of play favored by Standard Poodles. She was telling me LIGHTEN UP/LOOSEN UP LADY! LOL I finally "got it," by uppiing her exercise through interactive games with her(walking on leash is NOT adequate exercise, even for an hour). When my 3 play together, if you didn't know better, you'd swear they were vicious beasts out to kill each other. 



> He is very intelligent and picks things up quickly but then it's a challenge motivating him to work with us on these things.


Explain, please. How do you go about "working" with him on whatever you're training? 



> Often it's a challenge just to get him up to go out - for instance just now I took him out to pee and he just refused to get up rolling on the floor instead and refusing all treats.


If he doesn't follow you from room to room and want to be in your proximity all the time, then my suggestion is to work on bonding. One of the things you can do is to tether him to you by slipping his lead on, and clipping it to the belt loop of your jeans. Just go about your business as usual, as if he weren't tethered to you. This will help him learn to focus on you, and learn to lay or sit quietly at your feet. 

If you're not on a schedule, then try that. Dogs, just like kids, thrive on structure and routine. I keep to a feeding schedule, so I can tell you just about to the minute when mine will have to poop and pee. 

Establish a daily routine where you provide him with time to run off the zoomies, time to eat, time to nap, potty time, time to do interactive play with you, out for a walk, quiet time on his rug/mat/bed with a chewy, and so on. Get him a buster cube and put one of his meals in it, play games designed to make him think and problem solve, and lavish him with praise. Jump up and down, clap your hands, hollar WaHoo!, and do whatever you have to do to get, and keep his attention! 




> He's very dominant with our older greyhound. The greyhound pretty much can't move without a reaction from the puppy. We've been using time outs with this, keep him on leash, train "leave it" to leave the greyhoudn alone, and try and work him in the greyhound's presence ot get him to focus on us instead of hte greyhound. However, while these things work in the moment, overall the reactiveness is increasing not decreasing. The greyhound is getting stressed as the slightest movement by him creates a reaction from the puppy.


Sounds like normal puppy behavior to me. SPoodle puppies have boundless energy, and another dog is a lot more fun than you are. He's trying to get that Greyhound to play with him. Like puppies do. They are relentless (and real PITAs)! LOL How do you know that your puppy even understands what "Leave It" means? Since it's not working, he doesn't get it. Get him to associate good things happening while he's in the room with the Greyhound (treats when he's hungry, so plan when they'll be in the same room together), and if need be, keep him on a leash tethered to you or the leg of a heavy piece of furniture. 

I don't allow puppies to have freedom of the house and access to other resident dogs at all times. It's not fair to them to be subjected to a puppy in their face and all over them. And that's exactly what a puppy is going to do! 



> Same with leash walking..we've been walkign him in our neighborhood since his 12 week shots and have tried to work in other areas for socialization since his 16 week shots.


16 weeks is a little late for socialzation exposure to diverse people, places and things, and you've got a fear period.




> this week he has become highly reactive on walks, barking and lunging at other dogs, walkers, joggers, trying to chase cars. I"m trying to get him to focus on me but not having much luck. I stop, stand on the leash, wait for him to look at me, try and break his gaze at the distraction, praise when i do get his attention but am each distraction seems to create more reaction...


Well, they do go through phases, and we have to work with them on issues like joggers, other dogs, etc. My last puppy (who is 2 yrs. old now) would leap and lunge at her shadow for pete's sake! It's NORMAL stuff, and you have to be mindful of fear periods. Defuse the situation (what's that?!!) what's that?!!. He's lunging toward a jogger? Jump up and down, do something, anything to be more interesting than the distraction. Waiting for him to look at you isn't going to do it. BORING! Get down and get crazy. Be FUN! Be interesting! Put your body between him and the jogger/dog/walker, and walk,skip/dance away - in an arc to your left, talking happy talk the whole time. 



> He hasn't really bonded with us much at all. We groom him nightly(he doesn't love this but will tolerate it). We pet and praise. We consistently reward when he looks at us.


Ok. Grooming is a necessity, so he'll just have to deal <grin> but since he's not thrilled with it, find something that sends him over the moon. Something that is special for the two of you. One-on-one time away from the house and the other dog is important, too. Even if it's just a short ride in the car, or popping in at the pet store for a squeaky toy or a chewy. I have 3 Standards ranging in age from 2 yrs. to 9.5 yrs. and two are bitches! I had my work cut out for me, but, I had a plan, was persistent and consistent, and those two bitches adore each other, despite the big age difference. (Whew!) 

When there are difficulties in training, it's usually due problems in the relationship and/or the puppy/dog not understanding what is wanted. I'm wondering if maybe you're overdoing the training - too much, too soon, not enough repetition of each cue trained, and then proofing of each cue (and not enough FUN)! Standard Poodles are very into their people, and it's not a joke when people talk about their sense of humor - they DO have a sense of humor, and love to make their people laugh. You say he's got a high prey drive - ok, use it to your benefit (and his) when training. Maddy had a high prey drive and SHE was a challenge. Once we understood each other, life was beautiful. She's my heart dog (the one I thought was insane, and sometimes scared me)!

Hang in there!!


----------



## Teffy

*whitepoodles and purley*: I see your point, however I am a romantic. I really do see your point though, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end. 

*ziggylu:* poodleholic reminded me of two things this mini-poo owner used to do that DID NOT WORK. A) The owner was highly competitive and was constantly trying to 'outdo' everyone by overtraining her dog. My dog is very eager to please and food motivated, her's the opposite. The dog became very moody and reluctant in class, she must have associated training as a negative.
B) She wanted her poodle to be 'calm and submissive'...sound familiar? So she'd roller blade with the dog every morning and night just like the guy on tv does, it only made the dog more irritable and ready to snap at someone...I've witnessed this and advised her but she never listened. She also did the alpha roll multiple times as a pup (and adult) just like the guy on t.v. and only created a more fearful, aggressive, foaming at the mouth dog on it's back.

Grooming too was a sore spot. 

I feel for you, but don't make the mistake like she did...she decided that she was the best solution, the saviour for this dog and kept it...things never changed, it only got worse and there's really, at this point no one to blame but herself.


----------



## faerie

i am so very sorry this isn't working out. you have worked HARD and at 4.5 months you should have affection, bonding, and desire to please! at minimum!

I don't think that this is a fit for any of you. I personally think you should return this pup to the breeder.

Please don't give up on this breed. they are amazing ... I ADORE my spoo. i've had german shepherds, labs, terriers, irish setters, bernese mtn dogs, mix breeds, my son has a pitt bull .. i've been around lots of dogs and this is by far my fav breed. I love love love my spoo. My sister got one and she adores hers too! i mean we really love them.

your puppy has problems and i think it isn't your fault. my goodness you are doing everything! and your poor greyhound doesn't deserve to be miserable either. nor you, nor your partner and that puppy doesn't need to be there. 

seriously, it's not failure. it just is what it is.

*hugs*


----------



## ziggylu

Thank you everyone. Just as an update, I have spoken with the breeder, she will take him back if that's what we decide to do. At this point, I suspect she'd prefer we give him back as I get the strong impression she feels we're the problem and as greyhound owners are an inappropriate home. 

I have three different trainers coming out over the next few days to help us evaluate what's really going on. one is our current one that want to work with us some more, one a trainer the vet recommended, and the third one my girlfriend uses with her Airedales. I've only worked with ours in the past so do want to see if other methods might make a difference. After that we'll make a decision. Our greyhound did put him in his place last night when he got too close while the greyhound was sleeping. He went flying across the room squealing(he wasn't hurt just scared) and then came and hid behind me. If the greyhound would do this more often, half the issues would disappear. 

My vet would also like me to bring him to her house to see how he interacts with her four standards. She's not convinced yet he's a lost cause based on what she sees on his (multiple) visits. He's had a lot of mouth issues - the punctures in the palate from the lower canines, a broken upper canine a couple weeks ago from playing too rough with a large stuffy, and now some serious teething. Improvements and regressions do seem to correspond with when he has mouth discomfort.....

Last week was a difficult week. we're in a better place this week to make a decision if needed. And stupid as it is, I did sit him down and talk to him over the weekend to explain the situation and possible outcome. He's been much better the last couple days. Who knows, maybe he understood. :embarrassed:


----------



## faerie

LOL! maybe he did understand! he is a poodle after all 

i just hope you all/ if you all keep him come to a place to have poodle love and kisses. because those are the best. 

maybe he is in pain from his teeth?


----------



## whitepoodles

Zygiloo:
I am glad things are looking up for Cosmo and you..
Please dont believe a breeder when and IF they tell you it is your fault. It is NOT. You have done everything immaginable and in correct manner in order to correct some issues Cosmo has. If your vet can take him into her house that will be great to just see how he interacts wtih other dogs as I see you do have a gleaming hope about him.
Also you have never said anything about his lower canines digging into his palate. This should NEVER BE ALLOWED to continue. Please take him to your vet and have him file the tip of the tooth down.. Your breeder should of mentioned the digging to you when you purchased the puppy, I always do.. I tell my clients that if they see the deciduous teeth fall out and the tip of the permanent tooth come out of the lower gum pointing inward toward the palate to just hold the dog's lower jaw between the palm of both hands and with both lt. and rt. thumb push the inside of the lower canine outward to stretch it. If you do this repeatedly 5-6 times during the day and disregard his whining about it you will see that eventually the teeth will not be digging and allign themselves properly. I dont have these issues in my line but if it happens and a dog I produced has this problem this is what I suggest my client do to rectify it. For a dog to have his permanent or deciduous canines digging into his palate is VERY painful and frustrating. Your vet should do something about it or you should. That MAY be Cosmo's problem , however I am not convinced that this is the reason for his emotional issues. It is await and see situation from what I gather you are now presenting and I wish you all the best... but if after all your attempts you come to the conclusion that you have tried everything to rectify the situation do not get sucked into believing that it is your or your greyhound's fault.. It is not,, it is just what Cosmo is.
Also wanted to mention that if your greyhound sent Cosmo flying across the room in panic, that proves that Cosmo is a BULLY as well.. He will push buttons until his are pushed and then flee in panic.. This is a mark of a bully and can also be worked at if you still wish to give this boy a chance. Best of luck. Keep us posted.


----------



## JE-UK

whitepoodles said:


> Zygiloo:
> Please dont believe a breeder when and IF they tell you it is your fault. It is NOT.


Ditto.

In the minds of some people, there must always be someone 'at fault'. If it doesn't work out with Cosmo, chalk it up to a poor match and leave it at that. The breeder may be worried you are going to blame the apparently poor temperament on her.


----------



## ziggylu

Whitepoodles
Thanks. Just to clarify...I knew about the lower canines when we bought him. The breeder pointed it out to us up front which I appreciated and one reason I believe she has very good intentions and cares about her dogs. I talked to my vet about it before buying and I believe I also asked a question here about it. The puppy's price was adjusted for the teeth. 

I had the teeth removed as that was the plan of action the vet and I agreed upon. Truthfully, the breeder felt I shouldn't and that it wasn't causing pain. So this along with the early neuter(done at teh same time as the teeth since he was under and I agree with the vet that while normally I would have waited that it was better than to put him under twice) I believe are making her unhappy with us as a home(along with the fact she feels as greyhound owners we may not be suitable poodle owners). Myself, I can't imagine how he couldn't be in pain from it so trusted our vet to remove them properly, particularly as she's seen this issue in standards of her own. She has me bringing him in regularly to check to see how the lowers come in so if needed we can work with the orthondontal dentist for the appliance. She feels likely it won't be necessary based on her experiences with standards she's had(all rescues not ones she's breeding).

The lowers haven't started coming in yet. Handling Cosmo's mouth is an issue as he had these deciduous teeth in until 14 weeks old and likely was uncomfortable for quite some time. he then broke an upper deciduous canine at 16 weeks(sigh and argh!). The vet and I agreed not to remove that one and risk putting him under again but watch to be sure it doesn't abcess(another reason he goes into the vet so regularly!). This past saturday's visit indicates it's not abcessing but it still tender to the touch. He's been much better the last couple days....we have been giving him a very small dose of pain med and it could be feeling better could be why we've all gotten along a lot better the last couple days. 

I want to be fair to the dog. His mouth really hasn't been right all along and that could be making him grouchy. He may have a manageable but dominant personality...I would like to have some help determining that and am trying to find the right people to help me figure this out. 

While we don't have children of our own, we have a very active and social household. I also am frequently at my mother's home where she has full-time caregivers that come and go. I need to determine if this is an issue where I will always need ot be cautious with Cosmo around people. If so, he's not a suitable dog for us and our lifestyle even if we can learn to manage him well. If however, he's just a strong personality dog that can learn his proper boundaries if we can learn to teach them to him we can have a good future together. I know that health issues can underlie a lot of behavior problems so definitely want to sort that out as well so we can make the right decision.


----------



## Beach girl

> Our greyhound did put him in his place last night when he got too close while the greyhound was sleeping. He went flying across the room squealing(he wasn't hurt just scared) and then came and hid behind me.


This is a really, really good sign!! He recognizes you as leader (he could hide behind you and be safe) and your greyhound is recognizing that Cosmo is emerging from puppyhood into adolescence and needs to be told what-for every so often.

I love, love, love* poodleholic's * post above. Excellent, insightful advice.

Edited to add:


> This past saturday's visit indicates it's not abcessing but it still tender to the touch.


 This could explain a LOT of why he is not food-oriented. Food, especially dry, hard kibble or hard, crunchy treats might be hurting him a lot. I wouldn't want food either if it hurt my mouth to eat it!

I use a kind of treats that are soft and squishy. I don't have the bag anymore (I keep all treats in air-tight plastic containers) so don't remember the brand, but they are brown, about the size of the tip of my finger, and I can easily work off a piece about the size of a pencil eraser for treats. I get about 6 or 7 little bits from each treat. Something like that might work well for him.


----------



## whitepoodles

ziggylu;112661 said:


> Whitepoodles
> Thanks. Just to clarify...I knew about the lower canines when we bought him. The breeder pointed it out to us up front which I appreciated and one reason I believe she has very good intentions and cares about her dogs. I talked to my vet about it before buying and I believe I also asked a question here about it. The puppy's price was adjusted for the teeth.
> 
> I had the teeth removed as that was the plan of action the vet and I agreed upon. Truthfully, the breeder felt I shouldn't and that it wasn't causing pain. So this along with the early neuter(done at teh same time as the teeth since he was under and I agree with the vet that while normally I would have waited that it was better than to put him under twice) I believe are making her unhappy with us as a home(along with the fact she feels as greyhound owners we may not be suitable poodle owners). Myself, I can't imagine how he couldn't be in pain from it so trusted our vet to remove them properly, particularly as she's seen this issue in standards of her own. She has me bringing him in regularly to check to see how the lowers come in so if needed we can work with the orthondontal dentist for the appliance. She feels likely it won't be necessary based on her experiences with standards she's had(all rescues not ones she's breeding).
> 
> The lowers haven't started coming in yet. Handling Cosmo's mouth is an issue as he had these deciduous teeth in until 14 weeks old and likely was uncomfortable for quite some time. he then broke an upper deciduous canine at 16 weeks(sigh and argh!). The vet and I agreed not to remove that one and risk putting him under again but watch to be sure it doesn't abcess(another reason he goes into the vet so regularly!). This past saturday's visit indicates it's not abcessing but it still tender to the touch. He's been much better the last couple days....we have been giving him a very small dose of pain med and it could be feeling better could be why we've all gotten along a lot better the last couple days.
> 
> I want to be fair to the dog. His mouth really hasn't been right all along and that could be making him grouchy. He may have a manageable but dominant personality...I would like to have some help determining that and am trying to find the right people to help me figure this out.
> 
> While we don't have children of our own, we have a very active and social household. I also am frequently at my mother's home where she has full-time caregivers that come and go. I need to determine if this is an issue where I will always need ot be cautious with Cosmo around people. If so, he's not a suitable dog for us and our lifestyle even if we can learn to manage him well. If however, he's just a strong personality dog that can learn his proper boundaries if we can learn to teach them to him we can have a good future together. I know that health issues can underlie a lot of behavior problems so definitely want to sort that out as well so we can make the right decision.


Zigyloo:
Thank you for clarifying the situation. I was under the impression from your previous post that it was you who feels the breeder may blame you, as such was automatically led to believe that it may be true. If you have spoken to your breeder and say that she has been helpful then I wonder WHY would you state that you feel she may be blaming the situation on you ? 
Regardless I commend and respect you for your tenacity and desire to see this situation resolved and I may be wrong in my assumption that it wont.. I HOPE it does for your sake , your family's and Cosmo's. I would suggest though that you do not take him to your mom's or introduce him to people he may lunge at or bite unless you are sure that he is progressing in a positive way and that you have 200% control over the situation. My final suggestion is:
If after several months of rigorous trying , consulting with professionals, speaking with the breeder re: solutions and working at home with Cosmo that his behavior is either unchanged or escalates please know when to admit that you have tried everything but NEVER FAILED.. it is NOT YOU who failed it is just circumstances and a dog born with the wrong temperament. That does not mean you were at fault , it only means that mother nature had other plans for this poor pup. Also please do not pitty him or let him tug at your heart strings. Take this situation very seriously and think with your head rather than with your heart, as this dog if not able to change will not only pose a danger to you, your greyhound, future children (if you have them ), your mom, her caregivers but also to society and other dogs in general and will set you up for numerous law suits.. YOu do not wish to get to this point trust me.. it will be a horrible life for you to live this way with an animal you can not ever trust in or outside of your house. Just my HO. but you can do as you wish. Good luck.


----------



## ziggylu

Thanks whitepoodle. We've made some decisions the breeder doesn't agree with - removing the lower deciduous canines, early neuter, and now a short course of small dosing of pain med for the pain from the broken tooth. Additionally, she has expressed to me that as greyhound owners we may not be suitable as poodle owners because the dogs are very different breeds. (we understand the difference and went to poodles because the greyhounds weren't suitable for things we wanted to do with our dogs, like hiking and agility). So now, when I called her to see if other owners were experiencing any possible temperment issues like we were seeing she feels we're just not putting the puppy in his place properly. It's more us than the dog. 

This could be the case, I'm not unwilling to consider this. One of our greyhounds was a complete "spook" when she came to us off the track and the other was a very easy going dog, who while destructive as a pup, wasn't very pushy. 

On the positive side, she did say overall she was hearing that the litter was slow to house train. We've actually been way ahead of the litter curve in this aspect and have had no problems at all with housetraining. A few accidents the first couple weeks but that's it. So at least I'm doing something right!  

Rest assured, we won't let this drag on nor be unrealistic. It's important to me to find someone that can really assess the situation and figure out what's going on and possible causes(temperment? fear? pain? overwork? underwork? mishandling?) so that now only we can make the right decision but if in fact Cosmo isn't in the right home a proper home can be found and he doesn't end up bouncing from home to home over the course of years. 

I'll try and post a picture of our guy. I realize this post has had a lot of negative stuff in it and I really appreciate everyone's honest input. It's been very helpful and has helped me think through the situation as rationally as possible. he does have good qualities. I haven't mentioned this, he does settle very quickly when removed from a stimulus so I take this as a good sign. He is very intelligent and while I'm biased, he's very handsome as well.


----------



## Beach girl

> he does settle very quickly when removed from a stimulus so I take this as a good sign.


Yes, that is a good sign.

Do you have a plan in place for him when you start back to grad school?


----------



## ziggylu

He crates well. I'm rarely gone all day. My husband works about ten minutes from home can easily let the dogs out midday. He also has a lot of flexibility to telecommute and at the beginning, he'll work half days at home on the days I am gone more then a few hours and then we'll gradually build a schedule if needed where he comes home for an hour or two at lunch to let them out, play with Cosmo, etc and then go back to work. We also have a petsitter we've used for years that can come and let the dogs out and play with them if we're going to be out of the house all day. We won't use her right away however until we have things resolved and decide on what direction we're going in. 

We've had him on a schedule of being crated in the morning and in the afternoon already even though i've been home a lot. So hopefully it won't be too bad a transition. He doesn't mind the crate at all and he won't be in it more than a few hours at a stretch.


----------



## whitepoodles

ziggylu;112679 said:


> Thanks whitepoodle. We've made some decisions the breeder doesn't agree with - removing the lower deciduous canines, early neuter, and now a short course of small dosing of pain med for the pain from the broken tooth. Additionally, she has expressed to me that as greyhound owners we may not be suitable as poodle owners because the dogs are very different breeds. (we understand the difference and went to poodles because the greyhounds weren't suitable for things we wanted to do with our dogs, like hiking and agility). So now, when I called her to see if other owners were experiencing any possible temperment issues like we were seeing she feels we're just not putting the puppy in his place properly. It's more us than the dog.
> 
> Dear Ziggylu:
> 
> I feel for you I trully do !!! dont you ever allow this breeder to insinuate or put the oneness and blame on you and/or your greyhound. This is the first thing an irresponsible breeder would do to absolve herself and her breeding practices from any fault. She is wrong in leading you to believe that your greyhound may be the culprit. She is also very fortunate to have a dedicated owner such as yourself when in fact many would of just dropped Cosmo back at this breeder's house turned their backs on her and him and considered it a welcomed loss.
> I just get SO frustrated with these type of breeders (and trust me there are many of them out there) who do not own up to what they produce and go on blaming innocent buyers who merely want a nice wonderful sound dog to share their lives with. Not too many clients even with the amount of love and dedication you have for your dog would of agreed to go through the expense and emotional turmoil you are now going through with this dog when in fact all you ever wanted was a normal dog to share your lives with.
> I do not know who your breeder is , suffice it to say I would NEVER recommend her or her dogs to anyone. As a buyer (YOU) I would however INSIST that she provide me with the names and e-mail addies of Cosmo's littermates owners so that you as one of the buyers have the opportunity to speak to the owners and find out IF any of the littermates exhibit the same problem.. and I will stress to this breeder the following:
> 
> If you have nothing to hide and are open about what you breed/produce and sell, I would appreciate if you allow me to speak to owners of Cosmo's littermates and find out from them PERSONALLY, if I AM THE ONLY owner who is experiencing these uncommon poodle temperament traits.
> 
> If your breeder is honest and has NOTHING TO HIDE she will give you the names of these clients but if she dismisses you saying that the ONLY problem SOME of her clients have had is potty training their dogs do NOT believe or buy into this line.
> 
> I have been breeding now for 15 years. I give carte blanche to all clients to post good and bad about me and/or my dogs on my website's guestbook.
> IF any prospective client wishes to speak to anyone who purchased a puppy from me, I welcome it and give them as many names as they want. I first ask the buyer if it would be ok and then proceed to forward either the tel. # or the e-mail addy. I actually encourage clients who purchase puppies from the same litter to stay in contact with each other and many a times invite them to be present at temperament testing. The clients meet one another and exchange tel. numbers and email addies and many a friendshipes have been created because of my encouraging clients to meet each other and get their dogs together.
> Your breeder should be able (if she has nothing to hide) to give you the names and contact of all clients who purchased Cosomo's littermates as it is YOUR RIGHT to find out about your dog's siblings as much as it was your right to question the breeder and see her breeding stock, her home, etc.. before purchasing your puppy. I am sorry I am so intense but am SO FED UP with some of these breeders who will blame anything on everything but themselves, their ethics and choice of breeding stock.
> Nough said.. I really wish you good luck Zigylloo and my intensity in this post is not at all intended toward you, but toward this breeder who attempts in making you believe that you are an unsuitable home for her breeding (Cosmo) and that it may be your greyhound's fault.. Oh puleeze.. I Have heard so many excuses like this over the past 16 years since I am breeding.
> Sorry about the rant.. but really... I feel for you and believe you deseve much better given how committed and loving you are to your boy. This breeder should consider herself LUCKY to have such a responsible and dedicated client like yourself...pls. keep us posted...


----------



## Desiree

Lower teeth growing up into the roof of his mouth changes EVERYTHING. Solve all of his pain problems and maybe with the help of trainers and your vet friend you can get this puppy going in the right direction. Good Luck!


----------



## 1Jurisdiva

Ziggylu - I am so sorry this is happening to you. I am not very experienced with training dogs so I won't offer tips, but I did want to add that I doubt having greyhounds is the problem at all.

My family had several rescue greyhounds throughout my childhood and they never had a problem mixing with a wide variety of other breeds we also adopted along the way - from westies, to collies, to a yorkie. I do not know your breeder, but saying you are an unacceptable poodle home because you own greyhounds sounds like an excuse for her to deflect her own responsibility in breeding what seems to be a difficult litter.


----------



## Beach girl

It's very interesting that the breeder said that the litter in general had individuals who were hard to housebreak. Poodles are usually among the very easiest of all breeds to housebreak. I think that is a warning sign that people are having trouble with that step. And a good sign for Cosmo that he isn't!

Ziggylu, you are taking a very thoughtful, considered response to all this. You are certainly giving him every possible chance.

You do have some very specific needs, and not even every well-bred poodle would be able to live up to everything. Caretaking for your mom and the dog being able to deal with a lot of different people coming in and out is a huge issue, so it's very important to get that part of it right.

If you do decide to get another poodle, you might want to read up on the Volhard temperament testing. Sounds like you need a dog who is in the 3 -4 sort of range, and I would guess what you've got is a dog who would get a lot of 1's and 2's for aggression (meaning more aggressive), and 6's for social interaction (meaning aloof and fearful). A fearful, yet aggressive, dog is not a family dog, under any circumstances.

Test and discussion of scores is here: Volhard Dog Training and Nutrition: Behavior and Training: Behavior


----------



## whitepoodles

1Jurisdiva said:


> Ziggylu - I am so sorry this is happening to you. I am not very experienced with training dogs so I won't offer tips, but I did want to add that I doubt having greyhounds is the problem at all.
> 
> My family had several rescue greyhounds throughout my childhood and they never had a problem mixing with a wide variety of other breeds we also adopted along the way - from westies, to collies, to a yorkie. I do not know your breeder, but saying you are an unacceptable poodle home because you own greyhounds sounds like an excuse for her to deflect her own responsibility in breeding what seems to be a difficult litter.


Jurisdiva:

I am glad to read your post and find out you too do not believe in the breeder's comment that the greyhounds may be the culprit. This comment shows lack of common sense and knowledge not only about her own breed (Std. Poodles) but also other breeds.
It is so UNcommon for a standard poodle breeder to make such a statement, unless they are familiar with this type of situation and have had similar temperaments produced in their previous litters. Such a breeder will not only refuse to admit to producing a puppy with a less than desirable temperament but will also go on to blame the puppy's temperament on the client or any other dog the client owns. For the unsavvy average pet owner this creates a no win situation as they are stuck with a puppy that the breeder refuses to acknowledge has any problems.
To my knowledge greyhounds may be a bit skittish but they are sighthounds they are not like poodles but to say that they do not fit with other breeds is an erroneous statement and not based on truth or facts. These gentle creatures are wonderful pets and are great with other dogs.. yes aloof and not always ready to play but far from aggresive or challenging in my opinion.


----------



## Beach girl

Personally I wouldn't mix a greyhound with a toy poodle, or with any small active dog, but a greyhound with a standard shouldn't create undue problems.

Hard to tell. Good that ziggylu said the breeder would be willing to take Cosmo back, but her (the breeder's) implied judgment that a greyhound-owning family wouldn't be an appropriate poodle-owning family sounds both dismissive and defensive.

Ah well. The important thing is that a) now the breeder specifically knows of the problem; b) breeder has said that other dogs from the litter are proving hard to housebreak (warning sign, even though Cosmo doesn't have that problem), and c) would indeed be willing to take the dog back.

Breeder's other opinions are just filler and fluff, basically.


----------



## ziggylu

I haven't actually been really riled about the breed comments. My husband and I have had greyhounds for...I guess 11 or 12 years now. At one point we were active in the greyhound adoption circles as volunteers. We saw a lot of breed prejudice and I imagine it exists in most breed worlds. 

I don't think my greyhound is a problem because he's a greyhound. He's not terribly assertive but I think that's a personality trait and not a breed trait. Like all breeds, greyhounds come in a variety of temperments. It is fairly uncommon to find a racing greyhound with a difficult temperment as dogs need ot be compatible given the close quarters they live in and the group environment, particularly on the farms and in training. More commonly you find dogs like our first that are very shy and fearful and don't do well on their own due to lack of socialization that most pets get. 

If we are an unsuitable home I think it isn't because we've owned greyhounds now and in the past....we may not have the personality match for Cosmo but that's not because we've had greyhounds.

The breeder has also offered to take Cosmo for a few days so she can evaluate his behavior herself. I told her I wanted to see if lessening the mouth pain helped. I also want to get some independent input first(She konws I have these trainers coming out this week). She IS concerned when I tell her he's growling and has snapped but she feels it's likely because neither us or the greyhound has put him in his place properly. She wants to see how he is with her and how he reacts if she corrects this type of behavior so she can know if it is a true temperment issue. 

I'm on my way out to a meeting at school so havne't had time to look closely at the Volhard info. Thank you for posting it...it's interesting to read and consider how Cosmo is with us htough I believe it's too late(at nearly 19 weeks) for that type of evaluation, yes?


----------



## ziggylu

Oh, and our first greyhound lived with a white persian cat...she was terrified of it! And neither of our greyhound ever looked twice at our cockatiel! (not so Cosmo with his high prey drive, but that's a manageable situation that I don't consider indicative of temperment).


----------



## Beach girl

No, not necessarily too late. The ideal is at 49 days, but I've done a variant of this test on Pippin (around 5 years old) and Casey (at 14 weeks old). The key is the test should be done by someone unknown to the dog. 

The older the dog is, the more it tests learned behavior instead of instinctive behavior, but dogs will learn what comes easiest to them instinctually, so I think it still has value even on adults.

There are other temperament tests on line specifically for adults. Google things like "temperament testing for rescue dogs" and similar phrases and you will find some good info.


----------



## Teffy

You are wonderful ziggylu :crying:

That was absurd, making the comment about greyhounds. I really, honestly don't get it...I've seen so many youtube videos of interspecie friends (Orangutan and hound, turtle and hippo, bunny and cat, heck my cats and dogs love each other) WEIRD people out there!!!

Don't let someone like that stomp on you, you've been fabulous. I hope that we've all been terribly wrong about everything, an oversight, and that you'll soon be thrown into poodle heaven.

Good luck


----------



## whitepoodles

Zigyllu:


Since your breeder is willing to take Cosmo back and have him there for a number of days in order to "assess" him herself, I would take her up on her offer. First this will save you alot of money hiring trainers in an attempt to correct behavior which may or MAY NOT be corrected to your satisfaction.

Allowing the breeder to take Cosmo back and I would highly suggest no less than 2 weeks stay , will give her the opportunity to see for herself how this puppy reacts/behaves, and if he does the same in her home as he does in yours.

Make sure to tell the breeder that you will be picking up Cosmo to bring him back to your home in one condition: that the breeder guarantees the puppy's temperament is sound and that with normal training he will be able to overcome his issue. The breeder if knowledgeable will be able to give you this answer after 2 weeks of her assessing her own breeding, I should say.

If at the end of the 2 weeks the breeder advises you to not come pick up your boy, then that means she is being honest and does not wish to endanger any member of your family to include your elderly mom, her caregivers and your husband and Greyhound. She should at that time also reimburse you the FULL amount of the puppy purchase to include his neutering and shots provided at your expense. This is NOT your fault that the pup turned out this way as such she should own up to her breeding and refund you the full expenses you had from day one with this puppy including his purchase price.

If the breeder tells you that the puppy is "safe" and that these are only "minor" solvable issues and you wish to trust her, tell her point blank.. that you will be hiring a PROFESSIONAL temperament tester (and I would highly suggest you start looking from now to find one in your area or outskirts you can trust in doing a profess. temp test, Volhardt method is the right one , or Pat Hastings... similar and basically will give you same results)
Tell this breeder that you will take the opinion of the professional temperament tester as the LAST word and decide what you do with the puppy based on what the tester tells you. This breeder has already proven to you to be on the defensive so you do not wish to put your 100% full trust in her.

The above solution will save you alot of money in hiring trainers and spending what I would think would be quite a sum until you rectify all the temp. issues and turn the puppy around IF AT ALL. Instead of going through all these expenses and emotional aggravation and exhaustion the best solution is to let the breeder deal with what SHE produced since she knows the sire , dam sibblings and dogs in her pedigrees.

I may be wrong in my advice, but that's really what I would do since I detect that deep inside you wish to try this puppy out and give him the max benefit of a doubt, before throwing in the towel.


----------



## neVar

i'm just coming into this thread now. and i haven't read ALL the pages (just read the first and the last ones here) 

IT's a tough place. I do a lot of obedience work with agressive and reactive dogs (i'm one of the 'agressive dog" assement houses for the local rescue). 

As a breeder- Yes sometimes a 'rogue' pup comes out. . .. we've all seen it- something that just isn't right in a dog. A temperment very OFF from the other ones in the litter... And we've also seen a dog who just wasn't the right match wtih the owners- and it has led to a dog running the house and being very dominent. 

I do aussies as my main breed. Your description of his temperment isn't off of some of the strong willed ones (like my bitch). There's a reason she's with me (a co owner of the dog) vs one of the pet homes. In a pet home she'd be quite likely way to much dog. One of her brothers who is not nearly as dominent as her was pick of the litter. He's in a pet home but intact and being shown by the breeder (and by me at one show). OMG after a winter of not seeing him while he was growing up he's just a rude stubborn dog who did give us a "make me" moment. we did he went OOH ohkay and that was it. My older aussie is probably one of the most dominent dogs i've ever seen. ever. He's enough that my friend who specialises in agressive dog rehab's (She's amazing with dogs) labled him as "the dog i wouldn't want to back into a corner"... you gotta finesse life with him. He's a rescue- so who knows what temperments the rest of his background has. Iv'e had him since he was 8 weeks. He's bitten two times. 

Greyhounds are way to soft of a dog for ME. i know that- i've fostered soft dogs- i'm often at a loss *L* they aren't instinctively a type of dog for me. heck i think poodles are soft dogs in my world which is why i love them especially for my kids. 

I am thinking of you and your pup. And i hope this gets resolved in a way that makes you happy. Be it he comes home and you find a way to work with him. Or that the breeder gives you a response that makes you happy with the outcome. It's always so tough when the dogs we love are not the right dogs for us. . .


----------



## poodleholic

Desiree said:


> Lower teeth growing up into the roof of his mouth changes EVERYTHING. Solve all of his pain problems and maybe with the help of trainers and your vet friend you can get this puppy going in the right direction. Good Luck!


No kidding. That puts things in an entirely different perspective. Geez, that poor puppy - doubt I'D be able to focus under those conditions!


----------



## fjm

I agree - if the pup has been in pain more or less all the time you have had him, no temperament testing - or training - is going to give a valid picture of his future. Knowing how pups can go off their food (and especially off hard kibble) when they are teething, and how grouchy babies can be, many of his issues could be down to mouth pain.

On the other hand, forgive me, but it sounds from your posts as if you don't actually like this dog very much. This may simply be because you are trying to maintain a reasonable, head-before-heart position, but if you have all been living together for over a month without bonding, perhaps it is time to admit that this is not a good match for you or the dog. No matter how much we care, and how much effort we are prepared to make, sometimes the fit is just not right.


----------



## FozziesMom

fjm said:


> forgive me, but it sounds from your posts as if you don't actually like this dog very much. This may simply be because you are trying to maintain a reasonable, heart-before-head position, but if you have all been living together for over a month without bonding, perhaps it is time to admit that this is not a good match for you or the dog. No matter how much we care, and how much effort we are prepared to make, sometimes the fit is just not right.


I picked up something like that too from the posts, doesn't mean we're right though. 

I can say this, when Fozzie first bit us after we owned him for <2 months, I was in tears calling the breeder and thinking about what was next. I couldn't even imagine taking him back. He had me at the first time he snuggled his little poodle head under my chin and sighed as if to say..."at last...." And it's been moments like that that keep me going through all the resource guarding nightmare (detailed in my thread on this same forum). 

So yeah, I agree, if your heart isn't literally breaking and aching at the thought of giving him up you will not be able to see it through the hard times. Giving up your dog shouldn't be easy, even if and when it's necessary.


----------



## poodleholic

> Originally Posted by fjm
> forgive me, but it sounds from your posts as if you don't actually like this dog very much. This may simply be because you are trying to maintain a reasonable, heart-before-head position, but if you have all been living together for over a month without bonding, perhaps it is time to admit that this is not a good match for you or the dog. No matter how much we care, and how much effort we are prepared to make, sometimes the fit is just not right.


I felt much the same, however, recognize that online expressions don't always come across reflecting an actual feeling. Likewise, it's impossible, really, for any of us to really know what's going on with this puppy without actually observing. Which is why I was really surprised by all the negative (against the puppy) posts!

My initial thoughts were that this is a perfectly normal puppy with behavioral displays possibly/probably caused by frustration, confusion, too much training too soon, and not enough letting the puppy just be a puppy. This was before I was even aware of the teeth penetrating the palate. Anyway, I didn't get a response to my questions from the OP, so can only go by what's been stated in responses to other posters. We hear about how the puppy reacts to the Greyhound, but never do we learn if she restricts access to the Grey via confinement with baby gates or an ex-pen, etc. I never allow a puppy to have constant access to my older dogs because that just guarantees problems. 

I have a friend who has a Greyhound, and has had them for 15 yrs. So, when this puppy's breeder expressed some concerns about it being the right home for her puppy because of the Greyhounds, my take on that was not the Greyhound(s) themselves, but the owners. My friend feels that my very well trained and well-behaved Poodles are _rowdy_ _and even scary_! ROFLMAO Why? because of the way that they play, run, leap, and growly talk - to me, and among themselves! Yet I can take all 3 of my Standards anywhere, and never have a problem. Just one could easily overpower me, so 3 at a time would be a piece of cake. Standard Poodles aren't for everybody.


----------



## ziggylu

Poodleholic

I didn't answer all your quesitons because they've been answered in this discussion. Yes I limit access btween the dogs I have been tethering the puppy to me and to furniture throughout the entire time he is here. this si one reason why housebreaking has been so successful for us. The puppy is on a schedule/routine that we have tried to keep as consistent as possible from day 1. the schedule routine is meant to mimic what the schedule will be like for my return to school this week so that transition will be less stressful. He is walked daily. he gets play time in the yard with us and independently. He has many different puzzle toys and gets time with those during the day. I bury a variety of items in his toy box daily to get keep him stimulated. I train in VERY short spurts throughout the day and during play time because he is very intelligent and gets bored very quickly. He is having trouble focusing on us with ANY distraction - in the house, in the yard, and away from home. No toy, verbal attraction or food item has worked to day. I've tried the natural balance food logs, hot dogs, steak, salmon. We've tried when he's very hungry and when he's not hungry. 

I have also indicated several times that I am no expert, don't claim to be one, and am not sure what we ourselves are contributing to the situation.

FINALLY BECAUSE IT DOESN"T SEEM CLEAR THE TEETH WERE REMOVED WHEN HE FIRST CAME TO US. I am putting this in bold because there seems to be confusion about this. We did not leave the teeth in. We never intended to leave the teeth in. The breeder did not want us to remove the teeth and disagreed with our decision to remove them...he spent hte first 13 1/2 weeks iwth this mouth issue. I understand this has made him mouth shy and defensive but the teeth have been gone several weeks now. the situation has been exacerbated because he broke a different tooth a couple weeks ago. You can see in my posts I have recognized this may be contributing to the situation. 

I mentioned the issue with the deciduous lower canines very early on in this discussion. I realize there is a lot of information in these many pages but I have tried to be transparent and honest throughout it so that people, such as yourself, could give us some input on the situation. I appreciate everyone's, including yours, responses. It has given me a lot to think about and consider.

Yes, it comes across as if I don't like this dog. EVERY day has been a challenge with him. Fozzie's Mom mentions that when bit it was hard to imagine giving up the snuggling and cuddling. We have not had one snuggle or cuddle with our puppy. The puppy seeks no attention from us and hasn't since the beginning. There are few moments of laughing at puppy antics. There is instead many moments of dealing with snapping, growling, overstimulation and lack of impulse control. I am trying to find the underlying reasons for this to make the right decision. I was sold a puppy under the pretense of it being a middle of the pack, laid back personality. That's what we need in our household....if in fact this isn't what the dog is by nature I have some serious decision making to think about to decide what is the best course of action for ourselves and the puppy. High energy is OK we knew this wasn't a greyhound...and we WANTED a dog with more energy. We're dealing with a lot more than energy. 

I also have not indicated returning this puppy to the breeder would be easy for us. I said point blank when first asked here that it would be VERY difficult for us and it is why we are struggling so much with what to do. 

We're trying to do the right thing. I am open to whatever suggestion you have and do appreciate your input. I am sorry if I give the impression I'm some uncaring, clueless woman who had no idea what she was getting into by switching breeds.


----------



## fjm

ziggylu, I appreciate your openness and honesty. Apologies - I missed the time sequence for sorting out your puppy's teething problems. If I were you, I would return him to the breeder. He does not sound the right dog for your household, but might thrive in a different environment. It is not fair to your other dog, the family you may have in the future, or to this puppy to spend the next 15 years managing behaviour that makes all of you unhappy. Let him go, while he is young enough to easily find a home elsewhere.


----------



## faerie

ziggylu, i think you have done everything possible and i honestly think it's okay to say it's not working.

it AIN'T working!

i'd return the dog and get yourself a puppy from somewhere else. whether or not it's a mouth issue, there is no bonding w/ you all and that puppy. it's supposed to be a busy time (and you've done so much busy stuff ... and hats off to you) but a fun time. you and your puppy are supposed to be rewarded w/ some connection, puppy kisses, giggles.

and seriously, your spoo puppy has problems. 

i'd return him, get yourself a different pup so you can experience what most all of us are experiencing. it's so worth it.


----------



## Beach girl

(((ziggylu))) Really, I want to hug you. You have gone through SO much with this dog, in time, expense, and extremely thoughtful consideration of his behavior and what could be causing it. You have to be in the top 10% of pet owners in terms of the thought and analysis you have put in, plus the effort and expense.

Most of us don't have to go through that sort of analysis, because most of our dogs have not presented those sorts of problems. 

If you still want to have this pup evaluated by the trainers you mentioned, my hat's off to you. My guess is that the bottom line will be this dog is not normal and not a good fit for your household. Possibly/probably not a good fit for any household, sadly enough.

It happens. It's not your fault. Far from it. It might not even be the breeder's fault, although she should have been astute enough to figure out this dog's personality before she placed it. It's possible the dog might have suffered some sort of brain damage in the process of being born, or it's possible that it inherited the temperament problems from mom, dad, grandparents, whatever.

In my lifetime, my family and I have owned a Sheltie, a dachshund, a beagle-dachshund mix, the mom of that mix, a large mixed breed dog who was my guard dog while living overseas, a small mixed breed dog, a puppy-mill poodle from a pet store, a rescue poodle who came to us at around 6 years old, and finally, a top quality poodle from an excellent breeder. My uncle owned collies.

Absolutely NONE of those dogs, of many and assorted breeds, ever exhibited the sort of aggressive, aloof behavior you are talking about. Not even my guard dog, who in many ways was my "heart" dog. He moved into "pet" mode very easily when I shipped him back to Washington with me.

If even a guard dog - who did indeed save my life on at least one occasion by attacking someone who was trying to scale the fence to break into my home - was never, in every day life, as aggressive as this standard poodle puppy - what does that tell you?

My advice: cut your losses, both economic and emotional, and return this dog to the breeder. Allow yourself some time to re-adjust. Clean everything very thoroughly if you want to use it again. And sometime when the time is right for you, look again for a nice dog from a reputable breeder.

If you haven't found it yet, there is a breeder topic on this forum. Or just ask anyone here who has a dog that appeals to you where it came from.

I wish you peace as you make this decision, and in the future, may you have years of joy with a *normal,* fun-loving, affectionate and smart poodle.


----------



## whitepoodles

My initial thoughts were that this is a perfectly normal puppy with behavioral displays possibly/probably caused by frustration, confusion, too much training too soon, and not enough letting the puppy just be a puppy. This was before I was even aware of the teeth penetrating the palate. Anyway, I didn't get a response to my questions from the OP, so can only go by what's been stated in responses to other posters. We hear about how the puppy reacts to the Greyhound, but never do we learn if she restricts access to the Grey via confinement with baby gates or an ex-pen, etc. I never allow a puppy to have constant access to my older dogs because that just guarantees problems. 

I have a friend who has a Greyhound, and has had them for 15 yrs. So, when this puppy's breeder expressed some concerns about it being the right home for her puppy because of the Greyhounds, my take on that was not the Greyhound(s) themselves, but the owners. My friend feels that my very well trained and well-behaved Poodles are _rowdy_ _and even scary_! ROFLMAO Why? because of the way that they play, run, leap, and growly talk - to me, and among themselves! Yet I can take all 3 of my Standards anywhere, and never have a problem. Just one could easily overpower me, so 3 at a time would be a piece of cake. Standard Poodles aren't for everybody.[/QUOTE]


Poodlholic:
May I ask are you a breeder of standard poodles or an owner?
I am very respectful of everyone's opinion on this PF specifically on this thread but as a breeder of standard poodles I must state my opinion about your post.
I have no idea what type of temperaments your poodles have and I am not here to judge, however when you say that poodles are NOT for everybody, my initial thought was Oh well.. they are not for everybody because they need extensive grooming needs, and then I realized that this is not at all what you are referring to. You are referring to that poodles (standard) temperaments are not for everybody.
Ok here is where I will tell you that you are VERY WRONG. Standard poodles are versatile dogs, they are a variety which can easily be integrated in any and all household which will give them proper training , attention and fulfill their needs for exercise, love, and attention. I have raised more than 18 litters comprising of 9-11 puppies circa in each and have many many clients who purchased puppies from me that would completely be in disagreement with your statement. I have clients from all walks of life with different personalities, from soft to determined and firm and I have NEVER heard anyone including any breeder I know who breeds quality well tempered sound standards to make such a comment. I do agree that breeds such as Rotties, GS, Dals, and some Terrier breeds are not for everybody but a POODLE????? and especially a STANDARD ?????? 
These dogs are wonderful, they are sound, they are loving, they are in tune with their master, most do NOT play so aggresively as some dogs you mention do, they also do not growl and are as intense and wired. Most standards I know and certainly the ones I breed have a very calm, loving temperament and they are always aiming to please. Wherever they go they do NOT act like a pack inspite of the fact that I live with 4 and they are a pack but never exhibit this type of behaviro both inside and/or outdoors. I will NEVER permit it. I AM THE ALPHA BITCH in my house NOT they... as such they learn to respect not only my house but also other dogs who they encounter outside when playing in dog parks and going to visit other people's homes who have dogs. I have never seen my dogs growl intensly at me or anyone else and when they play they know when enough is enough.
I will never find excuses for this type of behavior and I do not take lightely when a poodle shows all symptoms of not being what a TRUE poodle should be according to the breed standard and I do NOT mean conformation wise, I mean temperament. Please read the breed standard and especially the temperament section as well as a myriad of books I have on my shelf which will dispell the statement that poodles are not for everybody.
They are not for everybody that does not wish to put 100% comittment in their grooming and socialization/training but Zigyllu had put more than her fair share of herself and comittment to correct this puppy's behavior and to no avial she has not succeeded inspite of her numerous efforts which to me as a breeder would of sufficed......
I am worried that you are leading Zigyllu to believe since she is a novice to standard poodle ownership that poodles are not for everybody and I beg to differ, Zygillu is very much a person I myself or any responsible and concerned breeder would be happy to place a poodle in her home as she demonstrated here that she is not only committed to care for this puppy but also to try and provide training for him at her expense and against all odds. What I detected from Zigyllu's posts here that she is torn between returning the dog and keeping him and trully I dont know of too many peoople who would of gone that far to keep a dog that is outright so not conforming to the breed standard and whose temperament is unstable not to mention dangerous to both her, her other dog and to society and he will only expand his horizons given the chance.. 
No matter what this puppy's issues are, I have had puppies with teeth digging into a palate most standard poodles go through this phase until the mouth straightens up but alas that does not mean that they should be vicious or growly or aloof and non responsive to their owners. Dogs have a much higher tollerance to pain than humans do and even while suffering these wonderful creatures still wag their tail and cuddle next to us no matter the pain they endure. At least I have experienced this behavior with my own dogs when they had an ailment and seen it in other standards.
I am sorry but I do NOT condon Cosmo's behavior no matter what painful issues he has and from experience of dealing with the occasional tooth digging into the palate I had never had a client calling to let me know that their dog turned vicious because of the tooth digging into the palate. First of all before I sell a puppy I instruct the client what to do in such case this happens so the client is fully aware how to correct the situation, they simply go to the vet and file the tooth down and if it is not the deciduous tooth but the adult one then when the permanent ones come start protruding through the lower gum they put the thumb of each hand and push the canines outward to loosen them a bit and repeat this 5-6 times a day until the canines eventually line themselves properly and the bite corrects.
And... zigyllu: you are NOT an uncaring clueless woman as you stated in your post.. on the contrary, you have demonstrated not only to your breeder but to us all here that you are very much a caring dog owner who wants to do right by her dog but there comes a time that even God can not perform miracles, neither can you. I am taking a chance to post my opinion regardless of some bashing me on the head but I can only talk from personal experiences as a breeder of stand. poodles and what I have experienced in my line, to include the temperaments I produce. No matter what.. I do NOT nor ever will condone a bad temperament in a poodle or any other dog or one that does not fit the breed standard. A vicious unrully and challenging dog is NOT a happy dog and will never change no matter how many trainers he will be trained by. I have seen these things not from personal experience but from others and it has in most cases resulted in disaster.


----------



## KalaMama

ziggylu said:


> Poodleholic
> 
> I didn't answer all your quesitons because they've been answered in this discussion. Yes I limit access btween the dogs I have been tethering the puppy to me and to furniture throughout the entire time he is here. this si one reason why housebreaking has been so successful for us. The puppy is on a schedule/routine that we have tried to keep as consistent as possible from day 1. the schedule routine is meant to mimic what the schedule will be like for my return to school this week so that transition will be less stressful. He is walked daily. he gets play time in the yard with us and independently. He has many different puzzle toys and gets time with those during the day. I bury a variety of items in his toy box daily to get keep him stimulated. I train in VERY short spurts throughout the day and during play time because he is very intelligent and gets bored very quickly. He is having trouble focusing on us with ANY distraction - in the house, in the yard, and away from home. No toy, verbal attraction or food item has worked to day. I've tried the natural balance food logs, hot dogs, steak, salmon. We've tried when he's very hungry and when he's not hungry.
> 
> I have also indicated several times that I am no expert, don't claim to be one, and am not sure what we ourselves are contributing to the situation.
> 
> FINALLY BECAUSE IT DOESN"T SEEM CLEAR THE TEETH WERE REMOVED WHEN HE FIRST CAME TO US. I am putting this in bold because there seems to be confusion about this. We did not leave the teeth in. We never intended to leave the teeth in. The breeder did not want us to remove the teeth and disagreed with our decision to remove them...he spent hte first 13 1/2 weeks iwth this mouth issue. I understand this has made him mouth shy and defensive but the teeth have been gone several weeks now. the situation has been exacerbated because he broke a different tooth a couple weeks ago. You can see in my posts I have recognized this may be contributing to the situation.
> 
> I mentioned the issue with the deciduous lower canines very early on in this discussion. I realize there is a lot of information in these many pages but I have tried to be transparent and honest throughout it so that people, such as yourself, could give us some input on the situation. I appreciate everyone's, including yours, responses. It has given me a lot to think about and consider.
> 
> Yes, it comes across as if I don't like this dog. EVERY day has been a challenge with him. Fozzie's Mom mentions that when bit it was hard to imagine giving up the snuggling and cuddling. We have not had one snuggle or cuddle with our puppy. The puppy seeks no attention from us and hasn't since the beginning. There are few moments of laughing at puppy antics. There is instead many moments of dealing with snapping, growling, overstimulation and lack of impulse control. I am trying to find the underlying reasons for this to make the right decision. I was sold a puppy under the pretense of it being a middle of the pack, laid back personality. That's what we need in our household....if in fact this isn't what the dog is by nature I have some serious decision making to think about to decide what is the best course of action for ourselves and the puppy. High energy is OK we knew this wasn't a greyhound...and we WANTED a dog with more energy. We're dealing with a lot more than energy.
> 
> I also have not indicated returning this puppy to the breeder would be easy for us. I said point blank when first asked here that it would be VERY difficult for us and it is why we are struggling so much with what to do.
> 
> We're trying to do the right thing. I am open to whatever suggestion you have and do appreciate your input. I am sorry if I give the impression I'm some uncaring, clueless woman who had no idea what she was getting into by switching breeds.


Do not beat yourself up! I agree with the others, his temperament is worrisome. I would take him back to the breeder and go from there. This SHOULD be a fun time for you.


----------



## PaddleAddict

poodleholic said:


> My initial thoughts were that this is a perfectly normal puppy with behavioral displays possibly/probably caused by frustration, confusion, too much training too soon, and not enough letting the puppy just be a puppy.


With all due respect, I don't see how you could have read this thread and thought for one minute that this was a "perfectly normal puppy." Additionally, I don't know what too much training too soon is... in my house, we have had rules and structure and training since day one and it has only led to positive outcomes. 

To the OP, I think it's wrong for anyone, including your breeder, to suggest that you are not the right home for a poodle simply because you have owned greyhounds. How ridiculous! 

You have done nothing but work with this difficult puppy since day one. Of course you don't "like" this puppy. What's to like? That you have stuck it out this long, in spite of not getting anything in return (i.e., cuddles, bonding, fun times, sweet moments) is commendable! Please don't doubt yourself based on your breeder's comments (or anyone else's).

I am so sorry that this was your first experience with poodles. They are truly a wonderful and exceptional breed.


----------



## ziggylu

I want to thank everyone again for their replies. I really appreciate there has been no hostility in this thread and hope it can stay that way.

There is a clear message over these 8 pages on what everyone thinks we should do. That message was coming through from the very beginning with cbrand's post. I am listening and hearing the message. The idea of returning the pup is difficult for someone who has always felt the "right" thing to do is commit to an animal for its lifetime. 

We are doing some serious soul searching today and will not let this decision linger. Please rest assured - whether you believe the issue is breeding, socialization, environent, me as the owner(yes, I do recognize I may be contributing unintentionally!), or some combination of any or all of this - we want to do what is right for this pup and his future. That is our main concern.

Fozzie's Mom mentions in her resource guarding discussion, using that thread as a journal and this thread has served as that for me. It has really helped look at things as objectively as possible. I want to thank you all for allowing me do so.


----------



## Littleknitwit

Ugh so sorry you have to go through this. I once had to give up a dog that I tried so hard (for two years) to help...it marked all over my house, barked constantly... I felt like you, that I was committed for life. But the animal was so troubled and caused so much stress in our lives that we gave it up. Our life is so much less complicated and stressed now. I miss him dearly, but we made the right decision for our young family.

I hope you can find your answer and peace with whatever decision you make! SO so sorry!


----------



## whitepoodles

I am so sorry that this was your first experience with poodles. They are truly a wonderful and exceptional breed.[/QUOTE]

This bout sums it up.. Poodles are a dog for every season, every situation, everyone, small, big, soft, determined, alpha, non alpha person and dog.
They integrate beautifully into society of canines and humans alike. They not only excell as dignified show dogs in conformation, but also in every performance they undertake. They are the TOTAL dog.
There is truth to the saying Poodles Rule and the rest Droole.
Sorry I love all dogs, but am sooo partial to poodles.

Zigyllu: breeders on this forum can help you find a responsible breeder in your area or in nearby states who does temperament testing and guarantees all puppies they place into homes, and even if you have to drive a 10 hours drive to a breeder to pick the right puppy it is worth it for the next 10-15 years you will have to spend with the RIGHT dog.


----------



## poodleholic

> [ziggylu;112997]Poodleholic
> I didn't answer all your quesitons because they've been answered in this discussion. Yes I limit access btween the dogs I have been tethering the puppy to me and to furniture throughout the entire time he is here. this si one reason why housebreaking has been so successful for us.


As I stated, my initial thoughts were based upon your first post in this thread, wherein you merely stated the puppy was dominant and reactive with your Greyhound, which tells me little to nothing except that you see him as dominant and reactive, yet doesn't describe the behavior or the scenerio to lead to this conclusion. I think you also mentioned that he had a strong personality, but again, didn't illustrate what you meant by that. In subsequent posts you fleshed it out somewhat, but some things still weren't clear to me. What became clear was that you were doing your utmost to resolve the issues, and getting professional help to boot. 



> The puppy is on a schedule/routine that we have tried to keep as consistent as possible from day 1. the schedule routine is meant to mimic what the schedule will be like for my return to school this week so that transition will be less stressful. He is walked daily. he gets play time in the yard with us and independently. He has many different puzzle toys and gets time with those during the day. I bury a variety of items in his toy box daily to get keep him stimulated. I train in VERY short spurts throughout the day and during play time because he is very intelligent and gets bored very quickly. He is having trouble focusing on us with ANY distraction - in the house, in the yard, and away from home. No toy, verbal attraction or food item has worked to day. I've tried the natural balance food logs, hot dogs, steak, salmon. We've tried when he's very hungry and when he's not hungry.


This is very telling; every puppy should be so lucky to land in a home like yours. I've seen puppies pushed with too much, too soon by well-meaning owners, but that does not seem to be the case with you at all - I did wonder. I had worked with a woman who was self-training her Service Dog, a wonderful male Standard Poodle. He was extremely smart and compliant, and learned fast. She pushed him too soon with too much, and he burned out. Couldn't use him at all, and had to rehome him. 



> FINALLY BECAUSE IT DOESN"T SEEM CLEAR THE TEETH WERE REMOVED WHEN HE FIRST CAME TO US. I am putting this in bold because there seems to be confusion about this. We did not leave the teeth in. We never intended to leave the teeth in. The breeder did not want us to remove the teeth and disagreed with our decision to remove them...he spent hte first 13 1/2 weeks iwth this mouth issue.


While I was unaware of the teeth problem to begin with, this, I understood as I read your subsequent posts after the initial, and yes, I noted that you recognized it may be a contributing factor to the situation. 




> Yes, it comes across as if I don't like this dog. EVERY day has been a challenge with him. Fozzie's Mom mentions that when bit it was hard to imagine giving up the snuggling and cuddling. We have not had one snuggle or cuddle with our puppy. The puppy seeks no attention from us and hasn't since the beginning. There are few moments of laughing at puppy antics. There is instead many moments of dealing with snapping, growling, overstimulation and lack of impulse control. I am trying to find the underlying reasons for this to make the right decision. I was sold a puppy under the pretense of it being a middle of the pack, laid back personality. That's what we need in our household....if in fact this isn't what the dog is by nature I have some serious decision making to think about to decide what is the best course of action for ourselves and the puppy. High energy is OK we knew this wasn't a greyhound...and we WANTED a dog with more energy. We're dealing with a lot more than energy.


Your first post contained the term "aloof," but this defines what you meant. Yikes. You ARE dealing with a lot more than energy. Standard Poodles are NOT aloof with their person/people, though they may be with strangers. Maddy was a "crazy" puppy that I seriously thought had a screw loose, but, she was always affectionate and wanting to be with me/near me at all times. (Maddy, btw, is a very confident, intelligent, and independent girl, but she's very affectionate, responsive to me, and is my best friend!)



> We're trying to do the right thing. I am open to whatever suggestion you have and do appreciate your input. I am sorry if I give the impression I'm some uncaring, clueless woman who had no idea what she was getting into by switching breeds.


I never got the impression that you were an uncaring, clueless woman. I understood why your puppy's breeder may have leaped to the wrong conclusion about you, due to your having Greyhounds, because of my friend who's a Greyhound owner and actually thinks my Poodles are rowdy and scary! Example: I'm on the sofa talking w/my friend when Maddy and Lucia come up and give me the Poodle Stare. I know exactly what they want because Maddy had rolled her eyes toward the slider door, keeping her head still, just rolling her eyes, which means she wants out, BUT, I wanted to have some fun w/Maddy so teased her by asking if she wanted a drink, was hungry, and then deliberately ignored her by talking to my friend. I knew what Maddy would do - and she did! Tapped my knee with her paw. Did it again, eyes twinkling. I asked again if she wanted this, that, and the next thing (which of course was NOT what she wanted), then I said, "Oh, do you want to go OUT?" Maddy leaped in the air, Lucia twirled, gave a happy yip, Beau came over and joined the group, and when I got up, I giggled at Maddy and said "fooled ya, huh!" to which she gave her growly-talk to me and stood on hind legs to give me a kiss, and a few nose pokes to my butt as I walked to the door. 

THAT is what my greyhound owner friend thinks is rowdy behavior, and it scares her!

I'm afraid that it really seems that something is quite off with this puppy of yours. The fact that he doesn't seek your attention is very troubling. Maddy was more of a challenge because of her high prey drive, while Lucia, whose prey drive is practically zero, is very sweet and so easy. Your needs would easier be served by a Poodle with a temperament like Lucia, but even a Poodle like Maddy would work out, because she's sound. I don't know, exactly, what you're dealing with. But then, none of us on this forum can really know without being there to observe. Hopefully, the professionals you've engaged will be able to give you an answer. And if you need to return the puppy to his breeder, do so without guilt. I too, am one who believes (and practices) that committment is for the life of the dog, however, there are times when that is not practical, and would be foolish. This may be one of them. He's young, you've invested a lot in him, but he's not bonded with you. Standard Poodles are marvelous creatures that are ready, willing, and able to do just about anything for their people, and this is what you should expect, and get with a Poodle.


----------



## poodleholic

whitepoodles, you inserted my quote, with changes in font/size your doing:



> =whitepoodles;113055]My initial thoughts were that this is a perfectly normal puppy with behavioral displays possibly/probably caused by frustration, confusion, too much training too soon, and not enough letting the puppy just be a puppy. This was before I was even aware of the teeth penetrating the palate. Anyway, I didn't get a response to my questions from the OP, so can only go by what's been stated in responses to other posters. We hear about how the puppy reacts to the Greyhound, but never do we learn if she restricts access to the Grey via confinement with baby gates or an ex-pen, etc. I never allow a puppy to have constant access to my older dogs because that just guarantees problems.
> 
> I have a friend who has a Greyhound, and has had them for 15 yrs. So, when this puppy's breeder expressed some concerns about it being the right home for her puppy because of the Greyhounds, my take on that was not the Greyhound(s) themselves, but the owners. My friend feels that my very well trained and well-behaved Poodles are _rowdy_ _and even scary_! ROFLMAO Why? because of the way that they play, run, leap, and growly talk - to me, and among themselves! Yet I can take all 3 of my Standards anywhere, and never have a problem. Just one could easily overpower me, so 3 at a time would be a piece of cake. Standard Poodles aren't for everybody.


[/QUOTE]

And THEN you ask:



> Poodlholic:
> May I ask are you a breeder of standard poodles or an owner?


Since the quote you inserted STATES that *I have 3 Standard Poodles*, yet you still have to ask, I probably shouldn't even bother to respond to you, but, I will. 



> I am very respectful of everyone's opinion on this PF specifically on this thread but as a breeder of standard poodles I must state my opinion about your post.
> I have no idea what type of temperaments your poodles have and I am not here to judge, however when you say that poodles are NOT for everybody, my initial thought was Oh well.. they are not for everybody because they need extensive grooming needs, and then I realized that this is not at all what you are referring to. You are referring to that poodles (standard) temperaments are not for everybody.
> Ok here is where I will tell you that you are VERY WRONG. Standard poodles are versatile dogs, they are a variety which can easily be integrated in any and all household which will give them proper training , attention and fulfill their needs for exercise, love, and attention. I have raised more than 18 litters comprising of 9-11 puppies circa in each and have many many clients who purchased puppies from me that would completely be in disagreement with your statement. I have clients from all walks of life with different personalities, from soft to determined and firm and I have NEVER heard anyone including any breeder I know who breeds quality well tempered sound standards to make such a comment. I do agree that breeds such as Rotties, GS, Dals, and some Terrier breeds are not for everybody but a POODLE????? and especially a STANDARD ??????
> These dogs are wonderful, they are sound, they are loving, they are in tune with their master, most do NOT play so aggresively as some dogs you mention do, they also do not growl and are as intense and wired. Most standards I know and certainly the ones I breed have a very calm, loving temperament and they are always aiming to please. Wherever they go they do NOT act like a pack inspite of the fact that I live with 4 and they are a pack but never exhibit this type of behaviro both inside and/or outdoors. I will NEVER permit it. I AM THE ALPHA BITCH in my house NOT they... as such they learn to respect not only my house but also other dogs who they encounter outside when playing in dog parks and going to visit other people's homes who have dogs. I have never seen my dogs growl intensly at me or anyone else and when they play they know when enough is enough.
> I will never find excuses for this type of behavior and I do not take lightely when a poodle shows all symptoms of not being what a TRUE poodle should be according to the breed standard and I do NOT mean conformation wise, I mean temperament. Please read the breed standard and especially the temperament section as well as a myriad of books I have on my shelf which will dispell the statement that poodles are not for everybody.
> They are not for everybody that does not wish to put 100% comittment in their grooming and socialization/training but Zigyllu had put more than her fair share of herself and comittment to correct this puppy's behavior and to no avial she has not succeeded inspite of her numerous efforts which to me as a breeder would of sufficed......
> I am worried that you are leading Zigyllu to believe since she is a novice to standard poodle ownership that poodles are not for everybody and I beg to differ, Zygillu is very much a person I myself or any responsible and concerned breeder would be happy to place a poodle in her home as she demonstrated here that she is not only committed to care for this puppy but also to try and provide training for him at her expense and against all odds. What I detected from Zigyllu's posts here that she is torn between returning the dog and keeping him and trully I dont know of too many peoople who would of gone that far to keep a dog that is outright so not conforming to the breed standard and whose temperament is unstable not to mention dangerous to both her, her other dog and to society and he will only expand his horizons given the chance..
> No matter what this puppy's issues are, I have had puppies with teeth digging into a palate most standard poodles go through this phase until the mouth straightens up but alas that does not mean that they should be vicious or growly or aloof and non responsive to their owners. Dogs have a much higher tollerance to pain than humans do and even while suffering these wonderful creatures still wag their tail and cuddle next to us no matter the pain they endure. At least I have experienced this behavior with my own dogs when they had an ailment and seen it in other standards.
> I am sorry but I do NOT condon Cosmo's behavior no matter what painful issues he has and from experience of dealing with the occasional tooth digging into the palate I had never had a client calling to let me know that their dog turned vicious because of the tooth digging into the palate. First of all before I sell a puppy I instruct the client what to do in such case this happens so the client is fully aware how to correct the situation, they simply go to the vet and file the tooth down and if it is not the deciduous tooth but the adult one then when the permanent ones come start protruding through the lower gum they put the thumb of each hand and push the canines outward to loosen them a bit and repeat this 5-6 times a day until the canines eventually line themselves properly and the bite corrects.
> And... zigyllu: you are NOT an uncaring clueless woman as you stated in your post.. on the contrary, you have demonstrated not only to your breeder but to us all here that you are very much a caring dog owner who wants to do right by her dog but there comes a time that even God can not perform miracles, neither can you. I am taking a chance to post my opinion regardless of some bashing me on the head but I can only talk from personal experiences as a breeder of stand. poodles and what I have experienced in my line, to include the temperaments I produce. No matter what.. I do NOT nor ever will condone a bad temperament in a poodle or any other dog or one that does not fit the breed standard. A vicious unrully and challenging dog is NOT a happy dog and will never change no matter how many trainers he will be trained by. I have seen these things not from personal experience but from others and it has in most cases resulted in disaster.


Whew, may I suggest a little more white space in your posts? Hard to get through as is. 

When you describe the many wonderful qualities of the Standard Poodle, you're preaching to the choir. Not only do I know first hand, having 3 of my own, but I've fostered with Poodle Rescue, and worked with various behavioral issues, most, if not all, caused by humans. However, Standard Poodles aren't for everybody. That's all I said, and I stand by it. Because it's true. Enough said.

BTW, all 3 of my Poodles have sound temperaments, are beautifully behaved, with delightful personalities.


----------



## poodleholic

> =PaddleAddict;113073]With all due respect, I don't see how you could have read this thread and thought for one minute that this was a "perfectly normal puppy." Additionally, I don't know what too much training too soon is... in my house, we have had rules and structure and training since day one and it has only led to positive outcomes.


That's because you didn't read - or at least "get" what I actually said. 

what I actually said was:



> My initial thoughts were that this is a perfectly normal puppy with behavioral displays possibly/probably caused by frustration, confusion, too much training too soon, and not enough letting the puppy just be a puppy.


It certainly IS possible to push too much training too soon. That does not mean that I don't believe in immediately teaching house manners, basic obedience, and set boundaries with an 8-wk. old puppy. That IS exactly what I do. I'm not going to get into the complexities of overtraining, because that is NOT the case with the OP, as she has since explained clearly what she's done with this puppy. Based on THAT, I'm leaning to there being something seriously off with the puppy.


----------



## whitepoodles

Since the quote you inserted STATES that *I have 3 Standard Poodles*, yet you still have to ask, I probably shouldn't even bother to respond to you, but, I will. 

Trully you have to relax, where is all this defensiveness coming from ?

You never mentioned whether you are or arent a breeder. Owning only 3 dogs does not mean one can not be a breeder. I AM A BREEDER yet for the past 16 years of breeding and showing, I ONLY live with 3-4 dogs on a regular basis. So my question to you whether you are or not a breeder is a legit one.
Just because you only have 3 dogs does not mean you are not a breeder. This is basically what my point was.. Understood now ??


Whew, may I suggest a little more white space in your posts? Hard to get through as is. 

Sorry if you feel this way, I had NUMEROUS PM from various individuals on this list who actually were very complimentary of my posts and way of sendig them.. not to mention the sound advice from years of experience.
I am sorry you do not feel this way but merely wish to focus on the "SPACES" in between my paragraphs and format in which my posts are sent hwell:


When you describe the many wonderful qualities of the Standard Poodle, you're preaching to the choir. Not only do I know first hand, having 3 of my own, but I've fostered with Poodle Rescue, and worked with various behavioral issues, most, if not all, caused by humans. However, Standard Poodles aren't for everybody. That's all I said, and I stand by it. Because it's true. Enough said.

No, I am not at all preaching to the choir as you state. I am speaking from 16years of experience selling SOUND , wonderful tempered poodles to the general public with whom I never had problems of the kind poor Zigyluu had.
While I did see VERY FEW poodles that posess aloof and unsound temperaments which are very non poodle like, I have had the opportunity in these 16 years to enjoy poodles with wonderful dispositions and true poodle traits. I have YET to meet anyone who tells me that the poodle is not for them. But hey, what DO I KNOW.. I am only speaking from many years experience and dealing with the general public who purchase my puppies...Maybe I should go back to the drawing board and re-start my breeding program... ??

BTW, all 3 of my Poodles have sound temperaments, are beautifully behaved, with delightful personalities.[/QUOTE]


I NEVER said they are not... I do not know why you have to even post this.. I dont recall ever stating that you have poodles with unsound temperaments so I trully dont know where this is coming from ?

Lastly... if you find the format of my posts hard to read or get through.. the solution is simple just go on to other posts.. There are so many members here with valuable information and experience whose posts' format you may find more appealing , that you dont have to concentrate on mine...Just a thought...


----------



## SnorPuddel

I have read this whole thread, and oh boy I do really feel for you Ziggylu.
You are trying to do what is best for your puppy and even tho you have not bonded, you are commited and I commend you for that. I am trying to put myself in your shoes, and I think personally I would have spoken to my breeder about the situation as soon as I noticed something. It does concern me that your breeder did not support you on the removing of the teeth and early neutering in this situation. I also wish she had not made you feel like because you had older greyhounds or greyhounds that you would not be a perfect fit for a poodle. You may not be the perfect fit for the temperament of the poodle you have, but you can certainly have a poodle.

I rescued a 9 1/2 newfie/aussie mix Bamm Bamm, at the time I had a 8 year old rottie Brandea. Brandea tried to play with grumpy Bamm Bamm, he was not having it, in fact he never played with her at all. Brandea passed at 14 and it took a year before I met Foxxy at 4 weeks and fell in love. It was not love at first sight for Bamm Bamm although he was less grumpy with Foxxy, and she won him over, and he played with her. I had never seen Bamm Bamm play until Foxxy. By the time Baldr came home Bamm Bamm was 18 and he had been touch and go for the past year, and almost three weeks after Baldr came home, it was Bamm Bamm's time. I personally think he was waiting to see if Baldr was worthy of being the man of the house.

I really hope that everything works out well for you in this difficult situation you are in, personally I would have returned the pup a while ago, it would have been hard, almost like giving up and admitting defeat.

Here is a pic of Bamm Bamm, Foxxy and Baldr back in 2008.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxxy-and-baldr/2153790663/


----------



## whitepoodles

My initial thoughts were that this is a perfectly normal puppy with behavioral displays possibly/probably caused by frustration, confusion, too much training too soon, and not enough letting the puppy just be a puppy. 

Poodholic:

If you note and as per your advise, I did put enough spacing in between my post's paragraphs. I hope it meets with your entire satisfaction.

When a puppy IS SOUND, posessing good temperament/disposition there is NO WAY h/she will bite growl or snarl at his own owner as Cosmo did EVEN IF HE IS IN PAIN.

I have seen poodles especialy puppies with canines digging in their palates but have YET to see one snarl at the hand that feeds him.

And... what is this about frustration, confusion, too much training too soon ?
My sales contract states that the owner (must) take their puppy to obedience school after its 2nd shot.

I also insist the client to provide me with copies of both the obedience course completion and spay/neuter certificates before sending them the CKC registration certificate of their pup.

I have yet to hear that the puppy was trained too much too soon and as a result became frustrated causing it to growl or attempt to bite the owner or anyone else.

Puppies I sell do mild forms of agility, certainly attend puppy kindergarden and basic 1 obedience and their owners train them daily with treats etc... and I have never been told that any of these puppies growl or get confused, frustrated to the point of biting. When a dog posesses good temperament its core will not allow him to display this type of behavior.. A puppy has to have it IN HIM to bite. If the puppy was treated humanely, given love, affection, food, a warm clean place to sleep eat and play, and is in a surrounding which is condusive to its emotional and physical growth than there is NO reason why such a puppy will behave like Cosmo did/does.

A tooth digging into a palate is NO reason for a puppy to bite, no reason for him to be aloof or standoffish, especially a poodle.

And... wasnt your initial post stating that Cosmo in your opinion exhibits normal puppy behavior, my question is.. WHAT is normal about it regardless of a tooth digging into a palate or not..

Nothing was/is normal about this puppy, period, and to my knowledge his breeder STILL Maintains that the fault lies with Zygillu. 

I hope that I made my point (s) clear. Lets move on please.. No need to reply to this post. You have your opinions and I have mine. Lets respect this.


----------



## Cdnjennga

I have been following this thread and feel really sorry about the situation you find yourself in. It's obvious how committed you are to your dogs in general, and this puppy in particular.

I truly believe there needs to be a fit between owners and their dogs. Not every dog is going to gel with every situation. And there's no shame in admitting when it's not working. So whatever you decide to do, I hope you know you are making the right decision for you, your circumstance and your other dog.


----------



## Beach girl

*Whitepoodles,* THANK YOU for putting in the paragraph spacing. Wanted you to know there are more of us out here who really appreciate your breaking up the big blocks of text. Thanks.


----------



## Beach girl

> I truly believe there needs to be a fit between owners and their dogs.


Totally agree with this. At the same time, you have to start with a normal dog. Within the parameters of being normal, some dogs will be more social, some more reserved; some more active and will love to run, some will trot along well enough but are perfectly fine with less intense activity; some are born retrievers, some will take their toys or whatever and keep them to chew on for themselves, thankyouverymuch, without wanting to bring them back to the Devoted Owner. Some will love to trot around the show ring, tails held high; others think "who, me?? Out there in front of all those people?? Ya gotta be kiddin' me!!"

Those are the sorts of things a prospective owner can look at and consider if a certain dog is the one for them or not. A dog who is well off the curve of being normal - that's a different matter entirely. 

And that's what ziggylu is dealing with here - a dog who is not even close to being "normal" for a poodle. Or "normal" for a dog, even, leaving "poodle" out of it.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

Beach girl said:


> *Whitepoodles,* THANK YOU for putting in the paragraph spacing. Wanted you to know there are more of us out here who really appreciate your breaking up the big blocks of text. Thanks.



Yes, thank you Whitepoodles! Much easier to read!


----------



## whitepoodles

ChocolateMillie;113372 said:


> Yes, thank you Whitepoodles! Much easier to read!


I am so sorry . I honestly didnt realized my posts were difficult to read and I appreciate you bringing this to my attention.

No secret.... I am passionate, long winded and do have the gift of the gab..which is one of my vices, but harmless nontheless.  

I will try :sorry: to be less verbose and put spaces in between my paragraphs.


----------



## poodleholic

> =whitepoodles;113316]You never mentioned whether you are or arent a breeder. Owning only 3 dogs does not mean one can not be a breeder.


 

No, I am not a breeder.


----------



## Beach girl

Ziggylu, I was wondering if any of the trainers you mentioned have done the evaluations this week. What did they say, if it happened?


----------



## ziggylu

Yes, we did have some new trainers out thsi week to work with Cosmo and ourselves. I have also discussed with his breeder returning him to her when she comes back from out of town next week. He's still with us now however.

The trainers all indicated separately he is a very independent and dominant puppy. He's got a lot of fight in him and doesn't give up easily. Combined with his intelligence this means he needs very firm boundaries, clear expectations, clear understanding that we are to lead and he is to follow and this needs to be constantly re-established with him. While all puppies/dogs need these things, he will not easily fall into this mode of following us and pleasing us due to his personality which makes the work with him demanding and often frustrating. 

no one believes he is a hopeless case. Of course, they're experienced trainers and have worked with dogs far worse than Cosmo. Walking in the door with experience and a certain way of carrying themselves they can establish a relationship from the get go. We would not as easily change our relationship with him. We have inadvertently done things to make things worse, for instance in trying to stop the mouthing we would walk away and ignore him, removing the attention. For him this is the desired effect - making us go away. Since he doesn't like or seek our attention, removing it is an reward. Yay. Just what we wanted in a puppy. LOL


----------



## Beach girl

I'm glad you have a sense of humor about it!! Made me laugh too. 

Poodles are ALWAYS clever, aren't they. If only that genius could be harvested for good...


----------



## PaddleAddict

I feel so bad for you. This is just not a poodle. Hardly sounds like a puppy. What puppy WANTS it's owners to go away?


----------



## whitepoodles

Zigyllu:

Maybe and I say it with a HUGE question mark.....maybe Cosmo will make some changes but he definitely , 1. does not posess any characteristcs of a "normal" poodle, and 2. will never fit into your family, since UNlike the trainers I believe you do not have the "fight" in you to turn him around if ever he can be , which I doubt, or the desire (and I do agree with) to work so much with him and get emotionally and physically exhausted which I am sure you are by now.

We all want a puppy we can live with and can love us and come to us NOT run away from us or challenge our authority for no reason. Dogs by nature and certainly poodles love people and desire to be with them, not the other way around. 

Had Cosomo been a sighthound I can understand the allofness and lack of desire to be with the owner, however he IS a poodle and he exhibits no poodle traits.

I honestly feel that even if you will manage to somewhat turn him around, you will never be happy (and neither will many of us) to own a poodle who ignores you and comes only when he pleases but pleases himself first and th en you, if at all.

It is imperative for any breeder to temperament test and make a match between client and puppy. Apparently your breeder does not seem to think it is essential and is as a result alluding to the entire situation being either your fault or that of your greyhound.

A relationship between a dog and his/her owner should be a positive and relaxed one not a constant struggle for alpha position, intimidation, growling and who has the upper hand. 

Even between a man and a woman or two friends, when the relationship gets to be to intense and negative and one feels disappointed and hopelessness this relationship is toxic and should not be allowed to go on.

One has to know when to quit and give up. You have done your best, stop spending your hard earned $$$ on a dog you (AND your breeder) know will never suit into your home and I doubt into any home unless with an extremely firm owner who the dog will fear (and respect as a result).. 
Do you want this kind of relationship? Because if you do, this dog will provide it for you, on a daily basis.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

Honestly, I don't even think the fact that the breeder didn't temperament test is even the problem. Had she temperament tested, then, yes, perhaps you would have chosen a puppy who was better suited for you. At this point, though - it really doesn't matter. Your pup is not even typical of a poodle. I have had 3 standard poodles, NONE temperament tested, all from reputable breeders, and ALL with wonderful, fitting personalities for my family.

Truly, the fact of the matter is that this dog is NOT what you wanted. This dog is NOT a typical poodle and therefore the breeder should take the puppy back. You deserve the poodle puppy that you wanted in the first place!!


----------



## ziggylu

I just want to be clear again. I HAVE discussed with the breeder returning the dog to her. She is out of town this week which is why he is still with us. 

I agree if he were a sighthound the aloofness would be more typical. Though sighthounds, while independent, tend to be more sensitive than Cosmo seems to be. One big reason we decided against another sighthound was my husband wanted a dog that was less independent. A dog he could play fetch with and as romantic as the idea is, would lie by his feet every night(our greyhounds like to lay across the room from us and watch us intently. LOL) Having had the good fortune to have had dogs with long healthy lives, he's waited a long time for that opportunity and is very very disappointed in how this situation has developed. Overall this is not what we imagined when we decided to go ahead and add another dog after the older one passed. 

It's bad news for everyone involved, including the poor puppy. If there were a magic wand to improve the situation you can bet i'd be buying it and waving it.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

ziggylu said:


> I just want to be clear again. I HAVE discussed with the breeder returning the dog to her. She is out of town this week which is why he is still with us.
> 
> I agree if he were a sighthound the aloofness would be more typical. Though sighthounds, while independent, tend to be more sensitive than Cosmo seems to be. One big reason we decided against another sighthound was my husband wanted a dog that was less independent. A dog he could play fetch with and as romantic as the idea is, would lie by his feet every night(our greyhounds like to lay across the room from us and watch us intently. LOL) Having had the good fortune to have had dogs with long healthy lives, he's waited a long time for that opportunity and is very very disappointed in how this situation has developed. Overall this is not what we imagined when we decided to go ahead and add another dog after the older one passed.
> 
> It's bad news for everyone involved, including the poor puppy. If there were a magic wand to improve the situation you can bet i'd be buying it and waving it.


I'm so sorry that you are in this situation! You are handling it better than I would, I am sure of that! I really hope that you end up with a puppy who is willing to give you the same love you give him/her.


----------



## whitepoodles

Zigyllu:

It is indeed unfortunate for this puppy as it is NOT his fault he was born with this temperament and it can happen to anyone. However you are right he is not the right puppy for you.

Had I been this puppy's breeder I would take the puppy back and invest time and money into attempting to turn him around and if I cant then I would be responsible and keep him in my house not giving him a chance to represent a threat to society and other dogs.

I have no doubt that now since you have learnt from this sad experience what characteristics to look for in a puppy, you will never make the same mistake again and I have no doubt your next pup will be wonderful and will fit well into your family and will answer all of your husband's expectations...

There are several breeders on this forum who can help you locate a reputable and responsible breeder in your area from whom you can aquire your next puppy, or even maybe a laid back adult, calm so that your greyhound will feel more comfortable in case he does not like a too much in your face dog and poodles are this.. they are a too much in your face dog. I LOVE IT but others may not.

Zigyllu, where do you live ?


----------



## ziggylu

I live in Arizona. 

I also want to be clear, we understood going into this what we wanted from a dog. THe first thing I asked the breeder about was temperament and indicated I had no desire to take home a very dominant puppy. I also explained it was to be my husband's dog as primary handler(because I'm in school full-time) and he himself is a pretty laid back, non-assertive guy. We've made many mistakes in this journey but we did ask the appropriate questions and explain what our needs were. 

Cosmo isn't difficult until asked to do something he doesn't want to do(Down for instance, needless to say this is not a command he takes to kindly) so we didn't see this when we went to look at him. Maybe this is why the breeder thinks he is not the way I describe to her. Perhaps she never asked much of him up til that point. 

I have asked myself what signs we missed....he didn't seem much interested in playing with toys but other than that....nothing seemed really off. He came to us, wagged his tail, and let us pet him. He does like people in his own way so even now we seem him eager to greet people that come in our home or we meet when walking. The only thing that might have given us a clue was he very interested in checking out his environment htat night...nose to the floor. once he'd said hi to us and let us meet him, he was off checking out the room, etc. I guess we didn't realize that this was going to mean and having had sighthonds, I didn't consider a bit of aloofness, in and of itself, a fatal flaw. We didn't force ourselves on him that night and maybe if he had we would have seen a bit more of the "don't tread on me" attitude....

He had also not yet been leashed trained. I suspect this is why she didn't see much of what we're dealing with. As I mentioned early on in this thread, just getting him to get up and come with me to go out in the yard isn't easy at times. Nothing short of dragging him halfway across the floor works when he gets it in his head he doesn't want to follow. 

I don't know. I do know it's been a difficult learning experience.


----------



## Beach girl

That is for sure! 

Have you had the chance to read the Volhard information? Google it and you will find their test, which is widely used. Pat Hastings has a similar one. Years ago when I bought my first poodle, from a pet store of all places, I used a similar temperament test that was in a book called "Choose the Perfect Puppy" or something like that.

It was absolutely on target for Bounder, and made me buy him because I was so delighted to find a dog that had an absolutely perfect score. 

One item is particularly telling: put your hands under the dog's chest, lace your fingers together, and lift the puppy. A pup who struggles violently does not trust people and will be difficult to bond with; a pup who goes limp is going to be "soft," (i.e., perhaps will be fearful, should not ever be corrected harshly, etc.), but one who struggles for just a couple seconds and then settles down in your hands is both self-confident and trusting of people.

If you had to guess, how do you think Cosmo would have reacted - the first way?

So it sounds like the breeder will take him back? It sounds like she either was basically ignorant of temperament testing or else perhaps thought he would "get over it" or something. Way too many breeders just think their own dogs are "just fine" and really do not look at the different puppies objectively.

Next time around, you are sure to be a much more well-informed buyer, and perhaps more sceptical of breeder's unsubstantiated claims about a dog.


----------



## ziggylu

He did struggle when we held him. He did eventually calm down a bit but has never loved being held. 

He's always seemed a bit anxious, stressed out which was why we wanted to go all positive at first. I've also done some TTouch with him(No expert but I've used this on the first greyhound and with my horses) He's been here long enough and we've been kind enough(really we don't beat and abuse this dog) that some relaxation with a young puppy would hopefully have occurred. One of hte trainers suggested to me he was really well bonded to the other dogs in his pack at hte breeders home but not to people. This makes some sense....he's not agressive towards other dogs but just obnoxious in trying to get them to play with him. 

Yes, the breeder will take him back. At this point she wants him back and wants him away from us I think. I really dont' think she intentionally sold me a difficult puppy. I think she really believed him to be how she represented him. Like I said, maybe he was never asked to do much prior to arriving in our home. Or maybe it has been all us. I really don't know anymore...


----------



## Beach girl

It's probably a combination, although I'd say it's 95% the dog, maybe 5% the particular situation. I'm glad she's fine with taking him back.

I'd guess you're right that she didn't deliberately sell you an impossible dog, but that indicates a lack of competence with understanding canine temperament. She didn't do enough stuff with him to get the full picture, even though he was born and raised under her care.

Do you ever watch "It's Me or the Dog" with Victoria Stillwell? If you had all the time and energy and patience in the world, MAYBE you could work with him. But as whitepoodles and others (including me) have said, that is a huge MAYBE, and you don't have endless time, patience and energy anyway.

Even on her show, she had one case where the best solution was to re-home the dog. Hard as she works for results, sometimes it's just a bad fit all around. 

Even if you could "work with him," that is not the same as having the kind of dog you really want. It is worth it (IMHO, of course) to start over with a dog who is closer to the kind of temperament you are looking for in the first place.

It sounds like this experience has you questioning yourself. To an extent that's good, but please don't let it undermine your own self-confidence or fitness to be second-dog owners. Next time around, you are likely to do things differently, maybe have different (and higher) expectations of the breeder, so forth and so on.

I hope for you that once this is over, in a few months you will be able to look again and find a better fit.


----------



## whitepoodles

Like I said, maybe he was never asked to do much prior to arriving in our home. Or maybe it has been all us. I really don't know anymore...[/QUOTE]

Zigyllu:
Please stop thinking it MAYBE you and your husband or greyhound. IT IS NOT, please do not take any blame or responsibility for this dog's unsound temperament and put it on your self to blame.

It is 100% the puppy and not you, it never was.

I am speaking here from experience of 16 years selling puppies to the general public and if I were Cosmo's breeder I would hang my head down, admit I produced a puppy posessing unsound temperament , take him back and count my blessings that I had found an owner like you who instead of dropping the puppy at a shelter you had the decensy to call the breeder and return him back.. Some people would just drop the dog at the shelter. Not only did you try your 100% best to socialize and deal with this dog's VERY difficult temperament but you also took the responsible route and realized he does not fit into your life and family and are responsibly returning him back to its breeder.
After you return Cosmo, you should stop questioning yourself and /or your decision and know you did everything possible for this puppy.

Look forward to your next poodle and I hope you are rewarded with a wonderful poo who will love and come to you willingly and one that you can enjoy many many years with. Good luck in finding him/her.


----------



## Beach girl

:clap2: I applaud all that. I really agree.

There is only so long you can do this: :banghead:


----------



## faerie

> Zigyllu:
> Please stop thinking it MAYBE you and your husband or greyhound. IT IS NOT, please do not take any blame or responsibility for this dog's unsound temperament and put it on your self to blame.
> 
> It is 100% the puppy and not you, it never was.
> 
> I am speaking here from experience of 16 years selling puppies to the general public and if I were Cosmo's breeder I would hang my head down, admit I produced a puppy posessing unsound temperament , take him back and count my blessings that I had found an owner like you who instead of dropping the puppy at a shelter you had the decensy to call the breeder and return him back.. Some people would just drop the dog at the shelter. Not only did you try your 100% best to socialize and deal with this dog's VERY difficult temperament but you also took the responsible route and realized he does not fit into your life and family and are responsibly returning him back to its breeder.
> After you return Cosmo, you should stop questioning yourself and /or your decision and know you did everything possible for this puppy.
> 
> Look forward to your next poodle and I hope you are rewarded with a wonderful poo who will love and come to you willingly and one that you can enjoy many many years with. Good luck in finding him/her.



please re-read this.

then re-read it again. you have done a lot of work with the puppy. you deserve a good poodle. seriously. they are fantastic dogs. the right poodle will be the best companion for your family.


----------



## kimstm

ziggylu--I just wanted to say that I am so sorry that you are having this experience with your first standard poodle. I really hope that you are not scared away from this breed. Please stop worrying about if there is anything you could havd done differently. I have been so impressed with all the things that you have done. You really have handled this quite well. 

Kim


----------



## penny_ann

I agree. Please don't think it is you. Sounds like this dog just doesn't like people much and I couldn't imagine having a pet that didn't like me. You have already gone above and beyond for this pup. Def. do not let this experience prevent you from getting another poodle.


----------



## Standard

I just finished reading this whole thread. Ziggylu have you decided to keep the puppy or return him to the breeder?


----------



## Jelena

What a sad story... hope you found out best solution for you and the puppy.


----------



## Chagall's mom

*Ziggulu:* I've been following this thread though I haven't contributed to it yet. I just want to say I am _very sorry _you've found yourself in the situation you have. And I want to say I applaud you for so valiantly trying with this difficult/disturbed puppy. 

It seems to me you've been superhuman in your efforts, alas poor Cosmo is an unwell dog. His poor mind sounds out of balance, whatever the cause. I cannot imagine any owner giving him a better shot than you have. Hard as it has to be, I think the kindest thing to do is what it sounds like you are contemplating. Let the breeder take him on. There's no joyful, happy ending, I realize. But you and Cosmo deserve to be spared the hardship of further struggle. Unrequited love is one thing, but a cold, distant, walled-off poodle, well that's just not natural. 

I wish you the very best and implore you not to beat yourself up over this! *It's not your fault *that Cosmo has the defects he does. You didn't create the situation, and it seems unlikely you, or perhaps anyone, can rectify it. I sincerely hope you one day (soon) have the pleasure of a wonderful, loving poodle in your life. You deserve to!


----------



## Sutton Bend

Wow. I read this entire post today and cannot believe this situation! I am so, so sorry you two have had to endure this trial. I have owned many, many, breeds including so called aggressive breeds (Akitas, Dobermans, etc.) I have never personally come across a dog with this combo of personality "quirks". 

I sincerely hope you will feel relief when Cosmo is out of your home. If you have doubts, let him go back to the Breeder on a temporary basis to re-group. You are probably so exhausted (and so is your significant other, your greyhound AND Cosmo). Give yourselves the space to make a clear decision!

I would spend a lot less time worrying whether the Breeder thought I had done the right things or not, that is irrelevant, and is wasted energy in the long run! 

I know you do not want to "give-up", but you are facing a tough stretch of school, have another critter (or more) to keep contented and at ease in their home, and a couple of humans relying on your home as a haven. When someone, or some poodle, shows who they are, LISTEN! Getting to the reasons for his behavior is admirable, and I never advocate giving in easily if an answer may be found, but you should not put the functioning members of your family through this any longer. 

Do you need someone else to drop him off? Would this make it easier for you? I really think you all need some peace and stillness, to actually decide, and I am putting many good wishes out for you! Please keep us up to date, and know you have given this situation your best, but if you don't know when to give the other family members relief, it may be all for naught. Think of it as Cosmo asking for a new home in the clearest way he can.


----------



## Sutton Bend

I had one final thought...has his hearing been tested? It would not account for all his behavior, but it might for some.


----------



## wishpoo

Ziggylu _ I am so terribly sorry to hear that you ended up with a puppy that is absolute contrast to what a Standard Poodle is all about :wacko::smow:

It is up to you to decide of how you will proceed but please know that even if you manage to make this puppy more agreeing and more responsive - he will never be a good representative of a breed - basically you will never experience what a true spoo is :smow:. If you are OK with that and want to have a Rottie in a "sheep skin" -it is plausible solution, I guess. 

There are people who find it fulfilling in some way to live with a difficult dog and continually work on him, but for most people who are buying a spoo it is NOT what they were anticipating or wishing to have at home. I know I don't and would never accept a spoo with such demeanor. 

I agree with Whitepoodles and Cbrand 100 % - temperament is inherited and as such can be only modified and never "changed". If you will be OK living with a dog that is somewhat dominant, aloof,and always testing you instead of absolute dominant , self- centered and dangerous dog - than this puppy might work for you. If you want a fun-loving, playful, kiss-giving and devoted companion - than you better return this pup and find a better match for you. You will be living with this dog for the next 12-14 years possibly - are you willing to put up with all of that for such a long time ????

I wish you all the best with whatever you decide !!!!


----------



## RO1937

*poodles*

ALWAYS Meet and interact with the parents before you get a puppy from their litter ! I always encourage people to meet the parents of my babies FIRST and if this isn`t feasible(as in shipping-etc.) I give references of puppy owners from previous litters from these same parents.I do so hate to hear about bad experiences with Standards--it`s just not normal poodle behavior to act like this---


----------



## whitepoodles

RO1937 said:


> ALWAYS Meet and interact with the parents before you get a puppy from their litter ! I always encourage people to meet the parents of my babies FIRST and if this isn`t feasible(as in shipping-etc.) I give references of puppy owners from previous litters from these same parents.I do so hate to hear about bad experiences with Standards--it`s just not normal poodle behavior to act like this---


RO1937

This is sound advice, however most reputable breeders do not have the stud dog on their premisses and either shipped or drove their bitch to the stud owner to breed to him.

In this case the client has no other choice unless they want to drive all the way to where the stud is, to only see the female on the breeder's premisses
and for many this will suffice. 

As you mentioned giving references from previous puppy owners is the best solution and I feel that this is more important than if the client is only introduced to the parent (s) of their prospective puppy. 

Pls. note that I have emailed Zigyllu but for some reason there is no response.
I hope that all is well with her and that whatever decision she has taken is the right one for both her and the dog. Such a sad thing....


----------



## Penjilum-Poodles

*Posting Pictures through Flickr???*

Sorry about this, i was suppose to post a new thread... i accidently responded to this one. I'll try again!


----------



## Penjilum-Poodles

I'm sorry you had to go through this... 
I wish yous the very best.


----------



## cbrand

whitepoodles said:


> This is sound advice, however most reputable breeders do not have the stud dog on their premisses and either shipped or drove their bitch to the stud owner to breed to him.


So true! In my last two litters, I shipped bitches to Edmonton, Canada and to Arkansas to be bred. At the last dog show, I heard someone say, "My bitch travels more and has sex in way more interesting places than I do!" 

Such is the life of a breeder.


----------



## Beach girl

We should make t-shirts:

"Sexy bitches have more fun" with pictures of the poodles.


----------



## RO1937

*T Shirts*

I do so agree about the T-Shirts


----------



## Chagall's mom

Beach girl said:


> We should make t-shirts:
> 
> "Sexy bitches have more fun" with pictures of the poodles.


Oh, I see _such_ possibilities here! We could sell a line of luggage plastered with poodles called, "Sexy bitches go farther!" And the travel wardrobe we could develop around that, well, it would definitely not be rated PG. I'm thinking a sarong with a poodle background and bright pink lettering saying, "Sexy bitches come by land, air and sea." Okay, I'll stop now, sorry. It's been a boring day, too hot to do much of anything outside. Off to make dinner now so my hands away from the keyboard.


----------



## whitepoodles

cbrand said:


> So true! In my last two litters, I shipped bitches to Edmonton, Canada and to Arkansas to be bred. At the last dog show, I heard someone say, "My bitch travels more and has sex in way more interesting places than I do!"
> 
> Such is the life of a breeder.



CBrand:

This is too funny  and so true...

I have some clients who are so wealthy and when they come to my house and show me photos of their home etc and tell me what kind of lifestyle they have and that the the dog will be on a boat on a plane, at thier country cottage, etc....I feel like asking them........

Together with the pup, Can you adopt me top ?

It is true that our dogs have at times a better life than some of their breeders do, and that includes having SEX in different places ROFLAO


----------



## whitepoodles

[quote Chagall's mom;117177]Oh, I see _such_ possibilities here! We could sell a line of luggage plastered with poodles called, "Sexy bitches go farther!" And the travel wardrobe we could develop around that, well, it would definitely not be rated PG. I'm thinking a sarong with a poodle background and bright pink lettering saying, "Sexy bitches come by land, air and sea." Okay, I'll stop now, sorry. It's been a boring day, too hot to do much of anything outside. Off to make dinner now so my hands away from the keyboard.[/quote][/COLOR]
Oh dont be sorry !!! this is SOO funny.. You certainly have a great sense of humor and also a vivid wild immagination..

Everyone needs sometimes to just let loose and go crazy, nothing wrong with this.. on the contrary, it is healthy....

I like your ideas ALOT !!!


----------



## wishpoo

LOL, well well, boys should not be excluded 

How about : "My stud fee is $5,000, proven bitches only"? :biggrin1:ound:


----------



## whitepoodles

wishpoo said:


> LOL, well well, boys should not be excluded
> 
> How about : "My stud fee is $5,000, proven bitches only"? :biggrin1:ound:


Wishpoo:

LOLOL Good one !!!


----------



## RO1937

*Exclude Boy`s NEVER*

I have two wonderful boys one is a pure wonderful clown and the other I call my Southern Gentleman---I`m sure the 5000 would please them--lotsa nice doggy treats to impress the ladies !!!


----------



## ziggylu

Hello Everyone

Sorry for the delay in responding. As I mentioned earlier I'm a grad student and haven't had a chance to sit down and update since school started. Now with the long weekend ahead I have a little time to do so. 

Cosmo is actually still with us. We had made up our minds to return him and let the breeder know this. She was fully willing to take him back but was going out of town so he stayed with us during that time. Had this not been the case we would have returned him as we were definite in our minds at the time we called her this was what we wanted to do. 

Well....it got even harder to send him away a week later so...we didn't and he's still part of our family. We're working with a new trainer and learning to be firmer(but kind) with him and working to establish a more respectful relationship between him and ourselves. We're actually making good progress in this regards...he's essentially been on a NILIF program for the past three weeks. The growling and biting has stopped. He's learning to listen much better at home. He's bonding with us and seeking both our attention and our company. He's learning to heel and has been better on walks around our neighborhood in the last couple weeks. He's learning to play independently and with us more appropriately. We're learning how important our body language is with him - he's so smart and so strong the subtlest things can really make a difference. Both positively and negatively and we're seeing the effects small changes in our body language can make towards more desirable behavior. 

We still have a long ways to go. He's not where I'd like to see him in terms of socialization at 5 mos as he still gets highly distracted when we're out and our progress at home in the last few weeks is just starting to transfer. He still bosses our greyhound around a lot and we're still trying to find a way to make that work. We're going to start him at doggie daycare next week, not because we need to have him there for our schedule but to work him on socializing with other dogs and finding him some playmates that are more suitable. We're hoping then he'll leave the greyhound alone more since more often than not he's trying(albeit obnoxiously) to get the greyhound to play with him. He really needs to burn off some energy and since we don't have any real options here other than dog parks, which I avoid, we're hoping doggie daycare will work out. 

I'd say we're still not the perfect owners for him. We've watched four different trainers work with him now(before selecting the new one) and with people who are more experienced in handling dogs he settles in respectfully from the first few moments. We're not inexperienced dog owners but haven't ever worked with a dog with such a strong personality(for that matter even my horses have had softer personalities! I guess I'm just naturally drawn to the softer shyer animals). We're all learning together. 

I don't know if we've made the "right" decision but who knows if there's a right or wrong. In the end it just didn't feel right to send him back though. It's so hard when it's a living, breathing creature that you're dealing with, one that's been in your home for any amount of time. 

I want to thank everyone for their input. I want you to know I really appreciated it and thought long and hard about this, taking all of your words of wisdom into account and shedding many tears along the way. I know many of you are likely shaking your heads at us now and really I don't blame you. It's probably not the logical decision and not the thing most here advised us to do. But we brought him into our family and felt we needed to keep the commitment to him and ourselves.


----------



## pudel luv

ziggylu;117785
I don't know if we've made the "right" decision but who knows if there's a right or wrong. In the end it just didn't feel right to send him back though. It's so hard when it's a living said:


> Ziggylu, you have made the RIGHT decision at this time because it came from the heart. The dedication you have shown to Cosmo is "his" miracle of a lifetime ... he found you. Hope the training continues to reap rewards for all of you. Best wishes to you and your family.


----------



## Penjilum-Poodles

pudel luv said:


> Ziggylu, you have made the RIGHT decision at this time because it came from the heart. The dedication you have shown to Cosmo is "his" miracle of a lifetime ... he found you. Hope the training continues to reap rewards for all of you. Best wishes to you and your family.


I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Kuddos to you for sticking with him and working through this. He is really well loved and your selflessness in this situation is really admiring. 
No dog is perfect but we love them just the same. Keep us posted on the little bugger and post some pics, we'd really love to see him! Best of wishes to you both.


----------



## Beach girl

> We've watched four different trainers work with him now(before selecting the new one) and with people who are more experienced in handling dogs he settles in respectfully from the first few moments.


This is huge, really. It shows he is not beyond hope, challenging though he may be.

I love that you are working with a NILIF program. That is essential with the strong-willed types who want to challenge and think that manna will still fall from the heavens regardless. You are instilling the right idea with him about looking to you for everything and coming to understand that his own correct behavior will get rewarded.

Do keep posting. I bet week by week, you will have small triumphs that before you know it, will add up to having a very different Cosmo in three or four months' time. And do post a picture if you have one. Would love to see this guy "in person."


----------



## Chagall's mom

*Zigglylu:* Cosmo is incredibly lucky to have you as his champion. I hope and anticipate your devotion to him will be rewarded many times over. The expression "Lucky Dog!" comes to mind. I cannot imagine him finding a more dedicated and committed owner. Wish you the very, very best!


----------



## whitepoodles

Zigyllu:
I responded to your PM and I commend you. WONDERFUL that you have decided to keep Cosmo based on his progress with the right trainer.

If indeed the trainer together with you manage to turn him around and chanel his energies into a positive way than this is great. I KNOW having read your PM that you will do great things with this dog.
Way to go girl and wishing you LOTS OF GOOD LUCK


----------



## Beach girl

Ziggylu, I wondered how Cosmo is doing this week?

Would love to hear the next chapter in your work with him.


----------



## Sutton Bend

Ziggylu

I am so happy to hear your post about keeping Cosmo...except I am reading it a week late! You sound so much more relaxed and positive. I am really relieved. I hope and wish nothing but bigger and better for you all...and I do think you made the right decision for you all, because you are the one in the situation, you are the best one to decide! 

I would like to see Cosmo pictures too! 

Good luck in school (and with doggy daycare) and keep us updated as time allows.


----------



## ziggylu

Thanks for asking, Beach Girl

We're continuing to make forward progress. Some slow, some rapid. Cosmo is doing well with training at home. We're still struggling with "leave the greyhound alone!" but even that is improving so we'll get there. He's doing well with basic commands around the house. We had tried a slip collar but I put that away as I didn't like the results and he really hated it. Our walks are getting better but he's still highly distracted when we walk and reactive to dogs, cars, and people. Still trying to find the right blend/balance of positive reinforcement and negative correction to help him learn and keep him motivated to work. 

He started daycare last week. He loves that and is doing well with the otehr dogs there. This also means he's getting lots and lots of opportunity to run off some energy which is making life easier for all of us. He's also learning to like swimming in the pool better so that's giving him a good outlet too. I don't know how long he'll keep swimming as we don't heat our pool but it's still warm enough for us all to get in and him to play in the water some.

We're going to try going back to a group obedience class this week We'll see how this goes but it's time to get him working out and about as well. Our vet still doesn't want him in a halti or gentle leader due to all his mouth issues(now we're looking at a very possibly retained upper canine...sigh..). I don't put much faith in harnesses myself, particularly as I want something I can eventually wean him to a flat buckle with. I didn't like the slip. I have a drawer full of martingales to try and I'm considering a prong though I've never really worked with one. I suspect though we're going to need something other than just the flat buckle for working him around other dogs at least at the beginning. I also have made several bags of "doggie trail mix" with salmon, steak, natural balance, and chicken hot dogs mixed up hoping an assorted smorgasbord will keep him interested in working around other dogs.

Like I said, forward progress. Slow but forward and that's what matters.

Wish I could say the same about school. I keep saying I need to withdraw for the semester as it needs to either be raise a canine good citizen or be a grad student. Doing both for the next few months feels really mutually exclusive! 

He's our third black dog and we're still suffering from "black dog syndrome" when it comes to picture taking so I don't hvae many great ones. I'll post one we took at puppy playtime this morning(the daycare has free puppy playtime for clients under 9 mos old on sundays...he did really well with the younger and smaller dogs today as well which was nice to see). Not the best picture but it's an image of the infamous little bugger nonetheless


----------



## Beach girl

Looking forward to seeing it!

Do you ever watch Victoria Stillwell's program, "It's Me or the Dog?" She is superb. Her method uses only positive reinforcement, never negative corrections that inflict pain. The most she will do that's negative is to stand up and "be boring" for a dog that jumps up. She will also use body language to teach a dog to back off something. 

She hates prong collars or choke-chain collars. She will use a head halter on occasion, as a last resort. Mostly she uses a regular flat buckle collar. She thinks things that inflict pain (shock collars, prong collars, choke chains) will make a dog worse, not better, and do not help a dog to learn self-discipline.

There was an episode this week where she discovered that a dog was reactive to cars going by. Her approach was to teach the "leave it" command, starting with treats held in the hand, and graduating to "leave it" for other things, including passing cars. Does Cosmo know "leave it" yet in general?

Also she uses clicker training a lot. Have you tried that with Cosmo? Clicker training can get you VERY quick results. Karen Pryor's book is the classic; she is recognized as the one who has popularized clicker training for dogs. I get very fast results teaching my two with the clicker.

Cosmo sounds like a challenging case, but he doesn't sound nearly as bad as some of the characters on the show. If you don't have cable, it might be worth buying her DVDs.


----------



## Jcjshelton

I am glad you made this post because I am experiencing almost the same thing...


----------



## N2Mischief

This thread is almost 3 years old. If you are having similar problems you may want to start a new thread. I'm sure there are many people on the forum that can offer advice!


----------



## Jcjshelton

Oops, actually I didn't read the entire thing...my dog is definitely not that bad...just very stubborn and pushy...


----------

