# Sticky  Gastric Dilatation-Volvulus (BLOAT)



## CharismaticMillie

Mods, can we make this a sticky, please 

Also, if anyone has any other helpful information or links please add to this thread!


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## Sutton Bend

Thanks for the info. My heart dog, CH Obi San's Teak Kin Tora suffered and died overnight of this. RIP sweet baby. I hope painful deaths can be prevented by awareness.


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## wishpoo

I was wondering - is there any age at which danger of bloat increases ? I suppose spoo puppies being still small in size can not bloat ??? Am I right ? Is 6 mos still too early or one should start watching closely even at that stage ???

Thanks !!!!


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## Ruth

Great post, Millie!! :clap2: *thumbs up*
(No thumps up smiley, whut?)

Sutton, I'm so very sorry to hear about your heart dog. 

wishpoo, I have read that older dogs are more at risk, but then again I have also read about cases in puppies (not Poodles though), so I guess it's better to keep watching them and not let the guard down no matter their age.


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## fjm

Excellent post, CM. I was very interested in the information about an acupressure point for bloat. That is one of the few pressure points I know and use on myself - I must find it on my dogs, just in case.


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## debjen

I have to point out under prevention a tack certainly reduces the risk of torsion but does not prevent it. My lab's stomach twisted a 2nd time after being tacked during his first surgery for bloat. They actually had to untack him to untwist his stomach again (I watched the surgery so know they had to do it).

A dog can bloat at any age although from what I've read it does seem to be more prevalent in the 6-9 year old range.

ETA-I have used the acupressure point on my lab when he was gassy and looked a little "bloaty" and it does work. For the longest time too I gave him Gas-X with each meal and whenever he was particularly gassy.


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## CharismaticMillie

debjen, you're right. Henry is tacked and I still worry he could twist. If a tack does not hold up for whatever reason the dog can still twist. I believe certain types of tacks hold up better than others, the age/physical maturity of the dog matters and I would assume sometimes it just fails for no known reason.

My vet did explain that it is pretty rare for a tack to come undone. It does happen though. So moral of the story: even if your dog has had a prophylactic gastropexy its still important to be aware while its not likely, torsion could still occur and to go to the vet immediately if you suspect bloat/torsion. If its Sunday night, don't wait until Monday morning!

Wishpoo - When Henry bloated the specialty vet told me that for unknown reasons it is less common for young puppies to bloat. But it DOES happen.


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## CharismaticMillie

I forgot to add this disclaimer to the original post:

I am not by any means a vet or medical expert!!! This is just a compilation of information about bloat and gastric torsion to help educate standard poodle owners about this emergency medical condition. It is not comprehensive and if you have questions about bloat please talk to your vet.


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## wishpoo

Thanks everybody for warning me about age ! I guess than it is never "too early" to stick with "good habits" *sigh. It is just so sad that this wonderful breed is affected with about "everything" under the sun :dong:


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## A'n'A Mom

Sutton,

I'm so, so sorry to hear about Taffy. 
Nothing ever prepares you for the horror of bloat...and nothing will ever be quite the same again. Been there...and my heart aches for you.

Nancy


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## Sutton Bend

Thanks all for the condolences. She was an "older dog", but otherwise pretty much in good health...If you don't count the seizures she and her unrelated "brother" came down with- within a month of each other! Sorry off topic, but whats up with that?


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## miket

*My Standard Markus -- Bloat Victim But Alive*

Last Thursday night I took Markus to the emergency animal clinic. From 11pm until 1220 am he was in surgery.

I want to warn all that bloat can occur any time and is an emergency. If you think your dog has bloat -- get it to a vet immediately, not later in the day, not the next day, BUT IMMEDIATELY.

Markus did well and is home now after one post-op day in hospital. 

Read about the signs and symptoms of bloat and be ready to act if needed. Bloat is not common but it leaves very very little time to act when it happens.

Mike

As one veterinarian told me -- "It's like an invisible accident happened."


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## Apres Argent

*Bloat*

Very sorry you both had to experience this. My Standard Bloated this past May and he had none of the text book symptoms. Please if you feel there is something very wrong with your dog insist on an x-ray.
Also FYI over the last couple of years there have been more reports of small dogs bloating and because it is not common for smaller dogs to bloat it is often missed at the dogs expense. Even with smaller dogs again insist on that x-ray! 



The symptoms of bloat WERE there, but dismissed as cramps and discomfort from the gastroenteritis. Gastric torsion (GDV) was not even mentioned or thought of as a possibility
www.thedogplace.org/CanineHealth/Bloat-Gastric-Torsion-To...


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## Ladywolfe

Great post. I experienced this with a pet many years ago, and I have always been on guard for it since that time.


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## robby69

Our 15-yr old spoo bloated with torsion when she was 15. Key is getting to the ER vet quickly, so the stomach does not die. $1800 and a week later and she was back to normal. It must cause alot of pain, as our docile creature bit the vet tech as they were trying to work on her. She couldn't get comfortable that night, pacing, some wretching, but you could just tell something seriously was wrong. If we had waited til morning, she would have been gone... Even though your personal small animal vet is capable of performing the procedure, IMO an ER vet clinic is a better choice as they probably do 2-3 stomach tackings a week or more. More practice better outcomes.


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## Sawyersmomma

Wow, I'm glad I read this! I know you need to get to the vet ASAP, but does he show symptoms right away, or it doesn't "appear" until after it's done some damage? If that makes sense?
Like if he's rolling and stuff, would he have JUST experienced the twist in stomach, or was it before but it didn't hurt until it's near the end stages?


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## robby69

Everyone animal that experiences bloat, or bloat with torsion has different symptoms. Bloat with torsion is the most serious as it will cut off blood flow to vital organs. Our spoo was just not acting herself, and could not get comfortable and would not lie down. She went out and ate grass as she does sometimes when she has a stomach issue. Some show up as wretching without anything coming up, but you will know something is seriously wrong and time is of the essecense to get your spoo to the pet hospital. It cost us $1800 and they gave us a 50/50 survival rate because they don't know how bad it is until they get in. It is extremely painful for your spoo, as our gentle lady bit the vet tech as they were trying to adminster the anesthesia. Our spoo will probably never have torsion again because her stomach is tacked. She still has episodes of terrible gas and stomach rumblings you can hear accross the room. Probably some bloat, and it is relieved with gas-x.


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## momtymztu

My Dad's bloodhound had Bloat with a very bad torsion (they gave it a number...like a percent and it was high but can't remember what it was). Anyway, I was the one who noticed her...she in here pen ready for bed and I went to give her a cookie before bed and she was standing up, holding her head down at an odd angle and wandinging in circles moaning....She wouldn't even sniff the cookie (remember this is a bloodhound, she will eat anything). i knew something was really wrong with her but when I ran my hands down her sides they were so hard it was scary...really ridgid and tight like she was about to pop. 

I woke my Dad up (he goes to bed early usually) and he and my Mom got her in the car and to the ER vet ASAP....They did did the surgery and tacked her stomach and she hasn't had any issues since. We got her an elevated feeder and make sure she is cool before she eats. 

It was a scary night and from what the vet said a close call!!! I'd say if you even suspect your dog could be bloating don't hesitate to take them to the vet...always better safe than sorry!!!!


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## robby69

One note, do not use elevated food bowls.. recent studies show that not only that it does no good, but it can actually cause bloat. If you animal, usually not a problem with spoos, gulps their food they do make a bowl that has a maze on the inside that makes them take small bites. Our older spoo used to swallow iams minichunks whole.. she was a gulper.. and hardly chewed anything.

* Wait at least one hour after eating or drinking before allowing exercise. This is the main factor shown to prevent bloat.
* Don't encourage your dog to roll over. Though a low risk, the twisting action has been shown to lead to bloat. In fact, some veterinarians do not rotate a dog over their back while anesthetized due to this risk.
* Feed 2-3 meals during the day rather than one large meal. However, be sure that you're taking the measured amount of daily food and dividing it into the meals rather than giving the once daily amount two or three times.
* Don't allow excessive water drinking immediately before or after a meal. Abnormal amounts of water have the potential to delay breakdown of food and lead to gas production.
* DO NOT raise the food bowl. While this was at one time thought to prevent bloat, a study in 2000 showed that this can actually increase the risk.
* Dogs who have had episodes of GDV are at risk for further occurrences. A surgery can be performed to attach the outside lining of the stomach to the body wall (gastropexy). While this doesn't completely prevent the stomach from rotating, it does lower the risk.


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## Sawyersmomma

One more question, Sawyer is 27'', and when he goes to eat he has to bend his front legs weird since his head won't reach the bowl naturally. Could I still get him a slightly raised one, just so he still puts his head down all the way to eat, but doesn't have to bend? I'm scared it'll lead to stiff legs or something in the future


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## robby69

They make these that adust from 3" to 14" in height:
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Petco-Right-Height-Adjustable-Elevated/dp/B002XE43UO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1338829327&sr=8-4[/ame]


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## Keystonefarms

*great information*

Thank you,
I Love to learn about things ike this, it helps all of us dog owners to be more aware and to help save our precious friends. I plan to always own two dogs, so thats double the chance of one getting struck with bloat. Now I will be aware of the signs and know what to do.
Thanks Again


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## Cynthadia

I can only speak from personal experience, having experienced bloat three times within a family of dogs (successive generations).

The most important advice I can offer is get to know your gut (no pun intended) feelings. By "feelings," I mean spend lots of time feeling/running your hand down your dog's sides starting from the front all the way back. Do it under all sorts of conditions (empty/full stomach, post drinking, first thing in the a.m., last thing in the p.m., when the dog is standing, laying on his side - you name it). Thump the dog's belly often to get a feel for what sounds typical.

Watch your dog's various expressions and head position. A head tilt (looking back toward the tail) can speak volumes about what's going on in the gut.

Watch your dog's back legs and feet. Sometimes, a stiff rear posture and/or walking gingerly can point to gut issues. The same applies to tail posture.

Lastly, if something doesn't "feel" quite right (as in the hair on the back of your neck stands up), don't ignore your gut feelings.


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## lily cd re

The advice to know your dog's body very well under various conditions is very sound. I am sure there are other things you might notice by doing these "hands on the dog" checks regularly that then can be looked at by your vet in a timely fashion. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Same goes for us knowing our own bodies as well....


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## sarahmurphy

If your dog passes gas frequently, is that a good or bad thing, as it relates to bloat issues? 

On the one hand, I think, "Wow - that's good - no gas building up!", and on the other hand I wonder how much more there is of it... 

Usually it's a small toot on stretching - occasionally, I'm pretty sure something crawled inside and died, or there really is some evil curse raining down on my head (and senses...) 

We got rid of the elevated food bowl because he is just too, too, messy! (and the bloat thing, but mostly the mess!)

any opinions?

sarah


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## Travis

sarahmurphy said:


> If your dog passes gas frequently, is that a good or bad thing, as it relates to bloat issues?
> 
> On the one hand, I think, "Wow - that's good - no gas building up!", and on the other hand I wonder how much more there is of it...


I think there is some great advice in these posts. My Sophie survived bloat surgery with flying colors but passed away from cancer a year later. I don't think there is any magic formula of what dog will get bloat and when. The probabilities of course are higher when they have eaten a big dinner and excercised very hard or have had some type of stress which is usually compounded by age. As for Sophie, she was never gasy and she ate only one piece of kibble at a time--so no gulping air or fast eating in her case. I think keeping in touch with your breeder is an excellent thing as if you have an open dialogue they will hopefully tell you about health issues that may have happened with other littermates. Sophie's sister had bloat when she was 8 or so and knowing this made me more vigilante and watchfull. I am sure dogs present differently but it was pretty obvious in her case. Mostly I just remember the biggest clue was that she tried to vomit but couldn't get anything out and would gulp air and she just couldn't get comfortable. She would wag her tail and circle to lay down and decide to circle more instead. I caught it very early in her case and can't imagine how much discomfort there must be for the dog later on. Sophie did fall into the category of having a very narrow chest, which makes dogs more prone to bloat. She was a petite standard. 

What really impresses me about this forum is that so many poodles with bloat survive because of their owners attentiveness to their dogs!! That is a testament to how many owners pay so close attention to their dogs and know their dogs behaviors so well. It is such a tragedy and rarely do I hear about good outcomes in other breeds...I think poodle owners are just a well educated bunch who love their dogs. Just enjoy every day with your dog and being best friends lets you know when he/she is not feeling right. The vet gave me a very interesting illustration about the progression of bloat and the various positions the stomach takes when it becomes detached and the possible damage that occurs at each stage. It was only a guide as of course some stomachs rotate slower and in some rare cases the stomach will actually rotate back into the correct position (although these dogs will almost certainly bloat again). Hope that helps, I am not an expert but did read a lot about bloat because of Sophie's sister and then also had experience with her case first hand. Hopefully the info will help someone else!


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## lily cd re

Travis, thanks for the story of your Sophie. Knowing what kinds of things to look for early is key here. My Lily is on the petite side and a bit narrow in the chest, so I will keep your experience with Sophie in my mental file of clues for not feeling well.


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## Nmariemunoz

Just read this and have to say im kind of worried now. I hate feeling so out of control about what can possibly happen to him! I am definately going to do no exercise before and after meals but Im worried about his playful interactions with my other dog.


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## lily cd re

Nmariemunoz said:


> Just read this and have to say im kind of worried now. I hate feeling so out of control about what can possibly happen to him! I am definately going to do no exercise before and after meals but Im worried about his playful interactions with my other dog.


You can't let yourself freak out about every possible problem. Most people never have most problems. If you are always worried you will transfer a sense of that to your pup. Dogs read us very well and you don't want to make your dog anxious because you are. That will create behavior problems. Be positive about everything, but always just a little vigilant in the background.


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## robby69

I think it also depends on what type of "eater" your spoo is. Our black spoo always gulped he food and didn't chew much, even with hard kibble. She would also vomit occassionaly from eating her food too fast. Our white spoo is a chomper, and thoroughly chews her kibble. I think she has only vomited twice in 6 years.

Key with bloat with torsion, is that they will be really uncomfortable. Pacing, panting, not able to lie or sit. They will try and eat grass, (our black spoo that had bloat we found out even ate rocks that night trying to purge). They will generally gag, but not be able to vomit. Bloat you can get through, bloat with torsion is lift threatening and you need to get to the emergency vet quickly. Emergency vets treat so many cases, that even though we have a great vet, I would take my spoo there, even if it was during normal business hours.


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## Travis

Nmariemunoz said:


> Just read this and have to say im kind of worried now. I hate feeling so out of control about what can possibly happen to him! I am definately going to do no exercise before and after meals but Im worried about his playful interactions with my other dog.


I agree with what the last posting said. Try not to worry too much and just be watchful. Bloat is just one of the many things that can happen to a dog and unfortunately it is more common in spoos than other breeds of dogs. There are so many more hazzards out there to the health of our furry friends than just bloat. Just be the most responsible and caring owner you can be and you will have a lucky dog. Most bloat occurs in older poodles (not always the case) so if you have a young healthy dog it is even less likely. Ask your breeder if they have had any cases of dogs bloating...if they have not then that reduces the risk greatly. We all love our pets so much and it is hard to protect them from the what if's and unknowns--not that it will keep us from trying!!


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## smaug20000

*my poodle had bloat this weekend*

Still feeling traumatized about our bloat incident on Friday. Our standard poodle is recovering, but I thought I would post our story here. 

On Friday after work, I got home, and Gulliver (our standard poodle who is 2 years old) seemed fine and happy. My husband mentioned that Gulliver ran around in the backyard and was having a great time, but he did eat a lot of grass. In a couple of hours when we were getting ready for bed, I took Gulliver out to pee, and he seemed distressed like he wanted to vomit. He ate some more grass. I put him to bed, but he couldn't settle, so I looked him over, and he seemed distressed, and his stomach seemed hard. It took a few minutes to sink in, but I started to think he had bloat. I told my husband we needed to get him to the vet. I called the vet, and they said to bring him in. That was the longest 30 minutes driving him to the emergency vet, but we finally got there. When I got him out of the car, he was even shaking his tail and seemed happy. The vet did an x ray, and sure enough, he had bloat with rotation, but he seemed like a great candidate for surgery. They prepped him while I hurriedly tried to come up with the fee of $4,500! We were able to bring him home Saturday night, and he is getting much better. I can't believe we almost lost him. They tacked his stomach to the side, but I am going to find out more about that procedure because it seems like we will need to be on the look out for this again.


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## robby69

That's the key, glad you had went ahead with the diagnosing, even when he appeared to be better.

Once his stomach is tacked, they can still bloat but can't torsion. Bloating is uncomfortable for the dog but will generally pass unless they have eaten something to cause a blockage. I found that when I heard my sPoo gurgling that giving her gas-x helped a lot.

Torsion is the life threatening situation, as it cuts off blood supplies.

I even asked my vet (emerg surg was performed out of town), that in his opinion on female spoos that are spayed, would it be beneficial to have their stomach tacked at the same time. He said its not uncommon on large dogs like great danes and domermans and many pet owners elect to have it done then.


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## A'n'A Mom

I'm so sorry to hear about Gulliver's bloat/GDV! And very relieved that you recognized the symptoms and were able to get him to the vet in time...and that you persisted with X-rays.

While bloat at age two isn't unheard of, it is unusual. I'm sure you've let Gulliver's breeder know....after all, breeders can't breed away from bloat if we don't let them know. I'd also ask that you please register Gulliver's bloat with the Poodle Health Registry. That will give the heads-up to other breeders who may have used the same stud or who are planning on breeding Gulliver's close relatives. If you have any questions about registering him, please message me.

Poodle Health Registry

Whew!! I've been there with bloat. I'm so glad Gulliver is okay.

Nancy


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## smaug20000

Thanks, yes I will let his breeder know. I had not been looking for bloat in him since he is so young. He most definitely does gulp his food and water. It is just surprising that he exercised before eating and drinking and still developed bloat. I also notice that he burps after eating and drinking very often, so I am going to get some gas x to keep on hand.


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## lily cd re

Gulliver is a very lucky boy to have had you being aware of the bloat and torsion at the early stage you caught it at! I am so glad to hear he is doing well.

Lily is a very gassy dog. I have had some people say they think it is good if they belch the gas up (and the other way too) rather than holding onto it. They think it means they might be less likely to bloat (not sure about the science behind that). Maybe you want to try the bowls that are designed to slow down food gulpers. Since he is a spoo, you might also try raising the food and water bowls. I know there seems to be disagreement about whether that helps, but our vet did suggest it (and he has a spoo too).

As an alternative to gas-x you can also consider Beano (also recommended by my vet). I give it to Lily when we are going to obedience trials so she doesn't "outgas" during sits and downs. She belches like a big man who has eaten too much cabbage sometimes and I don't want her to draw nearby dogs off their stays.


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## Qarza

Having just read all this thread, I must say I am sorry to hear of all the poor pets and their people who have gone through this painful problem. Now I have to ask what has been going through my mind all along.
Can Minis and Toys get bloat? Has it been known? Is this something that only larger dog with deep chests get?


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## Travis

I think bloat is very uncommon in the smaller versions of poodles. That is one of the reasons when my standard Sophie passed away I decided my next dog would be a miniature poodle. It is a very scary thing and more of a concern with larger dogs. How about it, has anyone heard of a mini or a toy poodle getting bloat?? This is a very informative thread, appreciate all the info from everyone's experiences.


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## fjm

A friend had a Papillon that bloated - fortunately she was an experienced breeder of GSDs and recognised the symptoms, and forced the vet to take action when he was insistant that it could not possibly be bloat in a toy dog. But I think it is very rare in small dogs.


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## ItzaClip

I am a fan of slowing eating simply for the brain (make em tired) but feed raw. Any good toys for stuffing with raw? Other than plain Kong. My golden is a champ and can clean out a canine genius. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## treehugr55

I just read through all the messages in here, thanks so much everyone for this information! I was not familiar with the symptoms of bloat previously, as I've never personally known a dog that has suffered from it.

This does make me a little nervous though, as I'm wondering if Clyde could be at risk. He will only eat from a slightly raised bowl (he's uncomfortable eating from a bowl on the floor), he doesn't eat that quickly, but he tends to burp after he eats. He's also gotten hiccups a few times. My pups only get fed once a day, since that's their preference (I've tried MANY kinds of feeding schedules over the last three months, and eating one meal at night before bed is the only thing that works for them). They get a homemade biscuit in the morning, and their full meal at 9pm right before bed. And he does drink excessively, including around meal times (we're working with a specialist to determine if there's a medical cause to that). All of those tendencies were pointed out here as being related to bloat, so is that true? Or has it been inconclusive (i.e., vets don't actually know what causes bloat)?


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## ItzaClip

*NEW information about BLOAT-*

Ash's Mystical Poodles Breeders. What We're Learning About Bloat

dont know if anyone has seen this. i certainly thought that the previous prevention methods were sound(raising dish etc) . my absolute fav is my grass puzzle dish
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=...cUPma0T9lVVnDRelBJKqv5cA&ust=1383869301357398


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## cocobolo

Well I must say that this has been a most informative and interesting thread.

Thank you to EVERYONE who has posted all this great information, especially the link to the Purdue study.

Neo, our male spoo is 4 years old +, and has suffered from constant vomiting since he was a puppy. As you can imagine, we have tried just about everything to alleviate this. I'm actually quite new to this relationship, so I haven't had the experience with Neo that my lady has. 

We have two female greyhounds here as well, one just acquired a couple of weeks ago. All three animals seem to get along well, except for the odd barking match at treat time.

We will digest all the information here and then speak with the vet to see what she thinks is the best course of action. And thank you again to everyone for the info.


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## matthew12

One of the most important things you can do to prevent a high-risk breed from developing GDV is to feed a species-appropriate diet containing no grains or other fermentable carbohydrates.


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## Mfmst

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/wsava/2006/lecture25/Fossum4.pdf?LA=1

With the touch of my fingers I can determine what percentage of humans will need an emergency appendectomy. I can drill down even further and get gender, age, race and on and on. I'm surprised to be so frustrated finding GVR statistics since the Purdue Study should have alarmed 11 different breed organizations and every owner of those breeds. I am encouraged that the AKC has been presented with the work of the Purdue authors so hopefully we'll have better breed specific data at some point. The Purdue Study was done in 2010 with a sample of 1,914 dogs. "Cumulative incidence of GDV was 5.9% for all breeds". You gotta love their conclusion: " The only breed specific characteristic significantly associated with a decreased incidence of GDV was owner-perceived trait of happiness". A 2012 survey study done by vets at the University of Pennsylvania of risk factors had really anecdotal conclusions. Increased risk factors included dry kibble, anxiety, birth in the 90's and spending at least 5 hours a day with the owner. "Factors associated with decreased risk of GDV were playing with other dogs, running a fence after meals, fish and egg diet supplements, equal time spent outdoors as in." 

The good news for SPOO owners is that our breed isn't among the most commonly effected with GVR. Thanks to this thread and others we know what to watch for and what to do if our dogs bloat. We can eliminate GVR as an issue by providing our SPOO's with Platinum Level vet care of an elective gastropexy if we are uncomfortable with the better than 94.3% chance that it won't happen according to the vets at Purdue 'cause all of OUR dogs are happy


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## marialydia

*Keyhole prophylactic gastropexy*

Today when Pericles got his rabies shot the vet and I talked about doing prophylactic gastropexy when he is neutered. She recommended that I look into a specialist/ emergency hospital nearby where they do laparascopic gastropexy.

I called them and had a good chat with one of the veterinary surgeons. She said that it's a fairly simple surgery, three small incisions. The surgery entails creating adhesions between the stomach and the side, so it's not a question of stitches holding the stomach in place; she said the failure rate is very low. She also said if she had a spoo there is no doubt in her mind she'd do it.

It won't be cheap but I do think it would give much greater peace of mind. Of course bloat could still happen but not the torsion, so while it's painful it's not deadly.


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## robby69

Our older black Spoo that got bloat with torsion was a gulper. We left her food out as a grazer, but she didn't chew her kibble well, and would sometimes swallow a lot of it whole and often vomited it back up. 

By contract our white spoo carefully chomps every bite, and has vomited once in her 7 years I think.

Meaning, HOW they eat may be the biggest factor on whether they will develop bloat IMO. 

Its hard to argue though that while you are already in there with "spaying", not to tack it. Neutering and tacking though would be a tough decision. 

The bloat/torsion was over $2000 in surgical bills, and we were luck we caught it in time.. and she was in a lot of pain. Our sweet docile spoo bit the vet tech trying to put her under before her emergency surgery. 

She lived from 10-16 yrs old with the tacked stomach and although I am sure she still some bloat episodes (you could tell), she never had torsion again.


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## Lori G

*mandatory surgery?*

The NorCal (N. Calif) poodle rescue organization that REQUIRES the surgery done to any spoo that is adopted thru them. Is this a little over the top? or should I just plan on having the surgery done regardless of the source? I don't have a spoo yet so this has been a very educational thread. Thank you so much!


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## ericwd9

*For those who did not read this report.
*

*Factors That Make NO Difference*

These measures, long been thought to reduce the risk of bloat, were found to have no effect:



Restricting exercise before or after eating
Restricting water intake before and/or after meals
Feeding two or more meals per day
Moistening dry kibble before feeding
*Factors That DO Make A Difference
*

These four (4) factors ARE associated with an increased risk of bloat in large breed dogs:



Raising the food dish more than doubled the risk for bloat.
Speed of eating: Dogs rated by their owners as very fast eaters had a 38% increased risk of bloat.
Age: The study found that risk increased by 20% with each year of age. Owners should be more alert to early signs of bloat as their dogs grow older.
Family History: Having a first-degree relative (parent, sibling or offspring) that had bloated increased a dog's risk by 63%.
*Conclusions
*

The Purdue research team concluded these are the things you can do to prevent bloat:



The strongest recommendation to prevent GVD (bloat) should be to not breed a dog that has a first degree relative that has had bloat. This places a special responsibility on an owner to inform the breeder should their dog bloat.
Do not raise the feeding dish.
SLOW the dog's speed of eating.


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## CharismaticMillie

ericwd9 said:


> *For those who did not read this report.
> *
> 
> *Factors That Make NO Difference*
> 
> These measures, long been thought to reduce the risk of bloat, were found to have no effect:
> 
> 
> 
> Restricting exercise before or after eating
> Restricting water intake before and/or after meals
> Feeding two or more meals per day
> Moistening dry kibble before feeding
> *Factors That DO Make A Difference
> *
> 
> These four (4) factors ARE associated with an increased risk of bloat in large breed dogs:
> 
> 
> 
> Raising the food dish more than doubled the risk for bloat.
> Speed of eating: Dogs rated by their owners as very fast eaters had a 38% increased risk of bloat.
> Age: The study found that risk increased by 20% with each year of age. Owners should be more alert to early signs of bloat as their dogs grow older.
> Family History: Having a first-degree relative (parent, sibling or offspring) that had bloated increased a dog's risk by 63%.
> *Conclusions
> *
> 
> The Purdue research team concluded these are the things you can do to prevent bloat:
> 
> 
> 
> The strongest recommendation to prevent GVD (bloat) should be to not breed a dog that has a first degree relative that has had bloat. This places a special responsibility on an owner to inform the breeder should their dog bloat.
> Do not raise the feeding dish.
> SLOW the dog's speed of eating.


There are a lot of flaws with the Purdue bloat study. It is no longer really thought that raising food dishes has anything to do with bloat. CHF is currently helping fund a study to look closer at potential causes of bloat. I donated blood DNA of a bloat dog to the study. Hope we find answers in the near future.

The main precaution I take against bloat is limiting stress.


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## 2719

CharismaticMillie said:


> The main precaution I take against bloat is limiting stress.


I second your opinion about limiting stress.


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## ericwd9

We had occasional bloat problems with Police GSDs. With a population of about 100 Australia wide we had 5 cases and 2 deaths in the 1980s. It was decided to limit the meal size and feed 3 times 1Hr apart in the evening. After this change in feeding only one incidence of bloat occurred from 1989-1996 (7 years) Recent research suggests that bloat is equally common in all large breeds. Are poodles any different??? I don't know but Grace is fed as above since that is all I know to do in order to prevent it.
Eric.


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## ericwd9

I should add that as far as I know the GSDs diets were not changed nor were any other steps taken? It could be just coincidence with just 100 or so dogs. As I get older and more stupid, I become more anxious and soft hearted. I was starting to think life had left me behind. I seemed to have little to look forward to. Now with Grace I have a reason to live and enjoy her enjoyment. I have watched her growth, both physical and in her enormous understanding. She and I have become a real team! My wife is more jealous of grace, than she could have ever been of any woman. Yet she loves her as much as I do. I really fear things, like bloat and poisonous snakes. We can be so powerless to intervene with our makers will. I fully understand how those who have lost their best friends to bloat must feel. I have, as many have, lost a number of dogs over the years. But they lived out their lives happily, for the most part. I lost my son GRHS, to Ischemic heart disease, at 43. I worry about my Grace, Stupid old man, that I am! 
Eric.


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## 2719

ericwd9 said:


> I fully understand how those who have lost their best friends to bloat must feel. I have, as many have, lost a number of dogs over the years. But they lived out their lives happily, for the most part. I lost my son GRHS, to Ischemic heart disease, at 43. I worry about my Grace, Stupid old man, that I am!
> Eric.


Not stupid at all. As we get older and experience all that life has to offer (both the heartbreaking and joyous times) we know more. Thus we can worry more because we are so much more aware of what can happen. I know it is hard, but worrying about Grace will not sway the outcome of what may or may not happen. Try to enjoy her and not let what may happen dampen your enjoyment.


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## CharismaticMillie

Informative webinar on bloat Bloat: What Every Dog Owner Needs to Know | AKC Canine Health Foundation

One topic covered in the webinar is methods of prevention. She mentions that there really probably isn't anything, from a feeding standpoint, that is going to lessen the risk of bloat.

Eric - I understand your fear. Bloat terrifies me, especially since I had adog bloat with torsion at only 23 months. I still remember being in the waiting room at the e-vet crying, not knowing if he'd make it.


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## ericwd9

All of the "problem" dogs would "bolt" their food. But in my experience most all GSDs did.
Eric


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## Poodlerunner

My spoo eats like no other. I hand feed her all her meals because of this. 

pr


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## Eclipse

Poodlerunner said:


> My spoo eats like no other. I hand feed her all her meals because of this.
> 
> pr


PR, I am sure you don't want to have to hand feed your spoo for the rest of her life, it is going to get tiresome LOL! They do make special bowls for dogs that tend to hoover down their food. Below is a link to a google images page for slow feeder bowls. You might want to check into getting one.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dog...NGoSnNr7-geAC&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=884&bih=459


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Just heard this morning of a nine year old who bloated yesterday and had to be euthanised. Bloat is the devil!!! Scares the crap out of me!


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## Poodlerunner

Eclipse said:


> PR, I am sure you don't want to have to hand feed your spoo for the rest of her life, it is going to get tiresome LOL! They do make special bowls for dogs that tend to hoover down their food. Below is a link to a google images page for slow feeder bowls. You might want to check into getting one.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=dog...NGoSnNr7-geAC&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=884&bih=459


My dog doesn't eat kibble, so I don't know what other option I have. She is only 6 months old, so perhaps she will slow down when she grows up. Otherwise, I will hand feed her if it might help prevent the horror of bloat.

pr


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## Carley's Mom

I have known 3 dogs to bloat and all 3 were in stress at the time. (Not my dogs) My girls have a great life, I try to always keep them out of stress. I don't believe it has anything to do with food .


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## Countryboy

ericwd9 said:


> I fully understand how those who have lost their best friends to bloat must feel.


I don't recall all the details of people loosing dogs to bloat. But I'll bet that they mostly involved unusual circumstances. I too believe that it has little to do with eating... tho it's easy to argue that it could. With the little we know about it, maybe it's caused by Blue Fairies. 

But! Even if it is Fairies striking out of the Blue... if you are with a dog as your constant companion, there is no way you could not miss the symptoms, and get the dog to competent care.

So my advice is to enjoy your dog. Conform to whatever protocols make you feel better, but in the end, it may strike. That's when you deal with it. If I know the symptoms, and know my vet's hours, I would put the threat of bloat completely out of my mind. Don't worry about it beforehand... but know what to do in the event. IMO it's your best 'defense'.


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## Poodlerunner

I agree with Country Boy. I want to be as educated as possible about bloat. I know of one story where a guy had a bloat kit that he believes helped save his dog on the way to the vet. 

pr


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## Lori G

So, as the OPer, I'm even more baffled that the rescue organization group would require the surgery done if bloat is such a manageable ailment; after all, the rescue really researches the person adopting so I'd think they'd know if the person was capable of watching for bloat. I'm not judging...just trying to understand. I approach things from "the least invasive action" / most holistic/preventative course of action when it comes to my own, and my animals', health. I was surprised to learn the surgery doesn't eliminate the occurrence of bloat...so if you still have to watch for symptoms, why do unnecessary surgery in the first place?


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## FireStorm

Lori G said:


> So, as the OPer, I'm even more baffled that the rescue organization group would require the surgery done if bloat is such a manageable ailment; after all, the rescue really researches the person adopting so I'd think they'd know if the person was capable of watching for bloat. I'm not judging...just trying to understand. I approach things from "the least invasive action" / most holistic/preventative course of action when it comes to my own, and my animals', health. I was surprised to learn the surgery doesn't eliminate the occurrence of bloat...so if you still have to watch for symptoms, why do unnecessary surgery in the first place?


The bloating is one thing...certainly not a good thing but probably not life threatening. It is the torsion that often goes along with bloat that is life threatening. Once the stomach twists and the blood supply is cut off there is a pretty small window of time to get the dog into surgery in order for it to have any chance of making it. As I understand it, you could be gone for several hours and come home to a dog that was too far along to recover. The surgery doesn't prevent bloat but dramatically reduces the chances of torsion.

I am really considering having the surgery for Hans, but I figure we have some time to decide since our vet says it is important to wait until he is done growing. If we neuter him, we will probably do that around 2 yrs so it makes sense to wait til then. My reason for wanting to do the surgery is that we are frequently in areas where we couldn't get him to surgery fast enough even if we recognized it right away. I can't imagine being somewhere remote and watching him suffer without being able to do anything. My mom lost an Irish Setter to bloat, and she said it was a horrible thing to see. Her dog bloated with torsion in the middle of a blizzard.


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## Eclipse

Both my current bitches, who are the 3rd and 4th standards I have owned, have had a prophylactic gastropexy done when they were spayed. I spay later when their growth plates are closed because I do serious performance training and showing with them and early spay/neuter has orthopedic consequences of note in addition to other issues. As they were both pexied at around 1 1/2 they were no longer growing and their stomachs were fill size. I lost my first spoo to bloat and GDV (torsion). She was not a surgical candidate due to her age (13) but she suffered terribly while we got her to the ER clinic (similar to the setter mentioned, at the time I was very rural and not near the ER). Back then no one talked about prophylactic pexies (neither did they with my 2nd girl). Who knows, if my first girl had not been able to torsion and just bloated, maybe she would have survived? But how she suffered before I was able to get her to the clinic to be put down will always stay with me......

Not all vets believe in doing the prophylactic pexy (or have experience with doing them, it is important to find a vet that is and to discuss the various kinds of pexies available or that they do). My regular vet is also the director of emergency surgery at my 24 hour clinic. The surgery that will be performed on a dog that comes in as an emergency bloat is a pexy. At that time the dog is already compromised and in shock and going under anesthesia and having the procedure is even harder on them and the survival rate is lower. She is totally on board with doing the pexy as a preventative in the higher risk breeds - as standards are. In fact, I just had my younger bitch spayed/pexied last week at 20 months (my older girl was done 5 years ago when she was 2). When my vet called to let me know everything had gone as planned, she also said she had done another pexy on a dog that had come in as an emergency in bloat/torsion and remarked again how much easier it is for the dog to be done as a young healthy dog as opposed to one in crisis.


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## Countryboy

I finally got around to the whole thread. Some great advice in here. Including mine.  lol

Who says nuthin' good ever comes out of Missouri, eh? 

But just a quick note to say that stitches, used in open surgery, or staples, used in any 'scopic' surgery... are just the first step in any 'pexy. At the point where the bowel is attached to the rib lining, scar tissue will start to form... bonding the bowel to the lining. And over weeks and months, it's ultimately this tissue bond that prevents the bowel from 'flopping over'... torsioning.

I think if you allow for cases where for whatever reason that bond didn't form, you might understand incidents of 'pexies failing. 'Cos there is no way the stitches or staples would hold, all by themselves, for any length of time


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## homemadehitshow

How much have people paid for their standard and laproscopic surgeries ?


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## ItzaClip

homemadehitshow said:


> How much have people paid for their standard and laproscopic surgeries ?


My 2 years old vogue got spay, plexy and umbilical hernia for @$700 CDN. I thought that was smoking good deal. She weight $45lbs


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## dogdragoness

I just decided on a standard poodle, because of the hardness and the roughness of my current dog, and our other dog's intolerance to smaller dogs, and I have been reading about bloat and gastric torsion, and I am kind of scared! What actually does a prophylactic pexy prevent? does it prevent the stomach from twisting? if so, what happens instead and how do I treat it?

Also, how do I guard against torsion happening before the prophylactic pexy can be performed?

Also, would feeding out of a slow bowl help?

SO MANY QUESTIONS and worries LOL, I have anxiety so I am working myself into a tizzy over this.


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## robby69

Don't let fear of bloat keep you from getting a spoo.

If you get a female, you can talk to your vet about getting a pexy done when they are spayed. It will not prevent bloat, but help prevent the torsion and volvulus that is the real issue.

One of our spoo's that got bloat with torsion was a "gulper'. i.e. didn't chew its kibble very well. 

All of our spoos have been free feeders and have always maintained their weight. Neither of our 2 current spoos are gulpers.

It appears that 4.4% of Standard Poodles will experience bloat, and I am imagine it is even less with those that go on to volvus.
LINK:Poodles-at-Play
A pexy when they are spayed would eliminate 90% of that 4.4%

We currently have an 8 year old spoo, and we did not have a preventative pexy, and we will probably not with our current 14-week old spoo puppy.

You will not regret your decision to get a spoo. In my opinion, I would definitely get a spoo puppy if you have other dogs. In my experience it seems that spoo puppies adapt quicker to the pack order than a new adult spoo would.

You can only be the judge of how your current dogs get along with other dogs. A spoo likes their down time, but can keep up with the best of dogs in playing and exercising.


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## Mfmst

I have done quite a bit of research on this topic and I wouldn't let the small possibility of bloat with torsion put you off the breed. As mentioned, an elective gastropexy is a option, more easily done on a female during her spay than on a male being altered. My vet does not believe it's necessary while my breeder suggested having it done by 4 for my male. I keep Gas-X on hand, know the symptoms and am still weighing elective abdominal surgery vs. the risk.


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## dogdragoness

I know bloat is a risk with every breed, here is a rundown of my day:

First light: take the dog out for a potty, then he is fed out of his kong wobbler toy, 1/2 a cup.

about 11am out for 2nd potty break, and about a 30 min play session of fetch 

about 3-4pm out for another potty break, and another play session, then we either work livestock, or do brain games if I have somewhere to be.

10pm: dinner, and out for last call.

The good thing is that the breeder I am going with (Argon standard poodles in texas) doesnt have a history of bloat in their lines, or any of their pups getting bloat, only a couple of siblings in their lines got it.

Yes, I plan to get a puppy and the reason I finally decided on a standard, is because my dog is so rough, and both are very reactive to small dogs and tend to bully them, so that's why I didnt go with a mini.


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## homemadehitshow

I just can't decide what to do in regards to the gastropexy, I've owned two spoos before and never heard of bloat but now I have I really fear it. On the other hand putting him through an unnecessary surgery seems so unfair.


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## zooeysmom

homemadehitshow said:


> I just can't decide what to do in regards to the gastropexy, I've owned two spoos before and never heard of bloat but now I have I really fear it. On the other hand putting him through an unnecessary surgery seems so unfair.


I can't remember if he's neutered yet, but if he isn't, it's not a big deal to get the gastropexy done at the same time. I'm glad I had it done when Maizie was spayed.


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## homemadehitshow

Not neutered yet but I think it's different for males since it's an extra surgery and internal.


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## Mfmst

If 4.4% of Standard Poodles experience bloat with torsion, then 95.6% do not. After researching this to the point of buying online access to articles from the veterinary journals, I'm not as worried as I was originally. I know the symptoms, have Gas-X, pet insurance and am close to a 24 hour emergency vet. It would be a separate abdominal surgery for Buck and with those odds, I don't want to put him through it. Everyone's circumstances are different and I am supportive of whatever you decide is appropriate for your SPOO.


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## CharismaticMillie

Mfmst said:


> If 4.4% of Standard Poodles experience bloat with torsion, then 95.6% do not. After researching this to the point of buying online access to articles from the veterinary journals, I'm not as worried as I was originally. I know the symptoms, have Gas-X, pet insurance and am close to a 24 hour emergency vet. It would be a separate abdominal surgery for Buck and with those odds, I don't want to put him through it. Everyone's circumstances are different and I am supportive of whatever you decide is appropriate for your SPOO.


While 4.4% of the dogs in the study experienced GDV, I believe the actual lifetime risk of a standard poodle experiencing GDV is actually closer to about 25%. A LOT of standards bloat. They tend to do it big and die fast. When looking at a pedigree, it's difficult to find one without dogs who have bloated themselves or who have siblings or offspring who have bloated.

And just an FYI. You can know the symptoms, be very knowledgeable about bloat, have Gas-X, pet insurance, and be close to a 24 hour emergency vet and lose a dog to bloat. I have personally had 2 of 7 dogs bloat. Unrelated dogs, completely different body types and personalities. One was saved, the second one died.


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## CharismaticMillie

homemadehitshow said:


> I just can't decide what to do in regards to the gastropexy, I've owned two spoos before and never heard of bloat but now I have I really fear it. On the other hand putting him through an unnecessary surgery seems so unfair.


I would do it. I recommend doing it at the time of spay/neuter so that you only have to have the dog anesthetized once. With a male dog, even though the neuter doesn't involve opening up the abdomen, you can have it done laparoscopically. With a bitch, they are already having their stomach opened for the spay, so it's only a slightly larger incision to just add on the open gastropexy. Unfortunately bloat is a very common issue in standard poodles and they can bloat and die in a very short period of time, even if you are very knowledgeable about the condition.


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## zooeysmom

homemadehitshow said:


> Not neutered yet but I think it's different for males since it's an extra surgery and internal.


But he'd be under anesthesia for only a little longer. Anesthesia is the most risky part of surgery.


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## homemadehitshow

CharismaticMillie said:


> While 4.4% of the dogs in the study experienced GDV, I believe the actual lifetime risk of a standard poodle experiencing GDV is actually closer to about 25%. A LOT of standards bloat. They tend to do it big and die fast. When looking at a pedigree, it's difficult to find one without dogs who have bloated themselves or who have siblings or offspring who have bloated.
> 
> And just an FYI. You can know the symptoms, be very knowledgeable about bloat, have Gas-X, pet insurance, and be close to a 24 hour emergency vet and lose a dog to bloat. I have personally had 2 of 7 dogs bloat. Unrelated dogs, completely different body types and personalities. One was saved, the second one died.


I have owned 3 standards, have friend/family and neighbors own around 10 and reviewed with various breeders account for around 50 others and not one has seen a case of bloat. There's always numbers to prove any case. 

None of this helps decide. Our local vet will do it for $1000, board certified is $2000 and lap' is over $3000.


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## zooeysmom

Good Lord. I was charged $700-ish for the spay and gastropexy, both traditional, and I live in a very expensive area. I can't believe some of the price quotes I hear!


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## CharismaticMillie

homemadehitshow said:


> I have owned 3 standards, have friend/family and neighbors own around 10 and reviewed with various breeders account for around 50 others and not one has seen a case of bloat. There's always numbers to prove any case.
> 
> None of this helps decide. Our local vet will do it for $1000, board certified is $2000 and lap' is over $3000.


As a breeder, I am telling you it is very common. It is difficult to find a stud dog to breed to who either hasn't bloated, or doesn't have siblings and/or parents and/or offspring who have bloated. Talk to any show poodle handler and they will tell you just how often they see bloat. It's a lot. 

I would look for a vet teaching hospital perhaps? Our specialty vet charges $1,000 for the laparoscopic but its only about $350-$650for an open gastropexy.


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## homemadehitshow

zooeysmom said:


> Good Lord. I was charged $700-ish for the spay and gastropexy, both traditional, and I live in a very expensive area. I can't believe some of the price quotes I hear!


I'm in the San Jose area also (Morgan Hill), where are you getting those kind of quotes? Was this full or lap, regular vet or board?

Thanks.


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## WinnieJane

I'm leaning toward preventative surgery at the time of spaying/neutering for my as-yet-unborn spoo. (I like to plan in advance!) Is this procedure common enough that most vets do it regularly? I'm wondering if I should find a specialist.


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## zooeysmom

homemadehitshow said:


> I'm in the San Jose area also (Morgan Hill), where are you getting those kind of quotes? Was this full or lap, regular vet or board?
> 
> Thanks.


Adobe Animal Hospital South Bay  Dr. Clare did her surgery--she's usually at the Los Altos location. It was traditional (full) and I don't even know if she's board certified. She did a fabulous job. I didn't have much time to hem and haw over options because Maizie had swallowed the toy and required an emergency gastrotomy, so I had the three procedures done at the same time. She recovered as she would have from a spay only--i.e., very quickly.


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## CharismaticMillie

WinnieJane said:


> I'm leaning toward preventative surgery at the time of spaying/neutering for my as-yet-unborn spoo. (I like to plan in advance!) Is this procedure common enough that most vets do it regularly? I'm wondering if I should find a specialist.


You will need to check with your vet. It just depends on their clientele. I do believe that experience is important in choosing a vet to perform the procedure. I prefer to use one who is very experienced in them.


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## homemadehitshow

zooeysmom said:


> Adobe Animal Hospital South Bay  Dr. Clare did her surgery--she's usually at the Los Altos location. It was traditional (full) and I don't even know if she's board certified. She did a fabulous job. I didn't have much time to hem and haw over options because Maizie had swallowed the toy and required an emergency gastrotomy, so I had the three procedures done at the same time. She recovered as she would have from a spay only--i.e., very quickly.


Thanks maybe I'll do it next time Teddy swallows a toy


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## zooeysmom

homemadehitshow said:


> Thanks maybe I'll do it next time Teddy swallows a toy


Oh, I hope that NEVER happens to another dog! I had an absolute breakdown over it. It was very traumatizing. However, thankfully, recovery from the surgery wasn't too bad for my baby girl.


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## homemadehitshow

zooeysmom said:


> Oh, I hope that NEVER happens to another dog! I had an absolute breakdown over it. It was very traumatizing. However, thankfully, recovery from the surgery wasn't too bad for my baby girl.


Our last standard had 3 surgeries for swallowing toys or parts of toys. This one has swallowed something three times, twice he threw it up later (didn't know he had even swallowed it), the third time they got it out at the vet without surgery. Needless to say all soft toys are now long gone (so he is just obsessed with dishcloths instead)


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## zooeysmom

homemadehitshow said:


> Our last standard had 3 surgeries for swallowing toys or parts of toys. This one has swallowed something three times, twice he threw it up later (didn't know he had even swallowed it), the third time they got it out at the vet without surgery. Needless to say all soft toys are now long gone (so he is just obsessed with dishcloths instead)


I'm sorry you've been through it and so many times! Sheesh, what is it with some dogs?? All soft toys here are gone too, and yes, Maizie loves dishcloths and towels, so they are out of reach!


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## homemadehitshow

It becomes kind of routine when you get used to it :act-up:


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## CharismaticMillie

Looked into the whole incidence of bloat in the Purdue study versus lifetime risk. 4.4% of Standard Poodles in the Purdue Bloat study experienced bloat, and 11.6% of Danes experienced bloat in the study. According to Jerold S. Bell, DVM from the 2003 AKC Gazette, the lifetime risk of a Great Dane bloating is 42.4%. If you compare the incidence of bloat in the study among Standard Poodles versus Great Danes, around a 20% risk , give or take, is a reasonable ballpark figure.

http://www.goldenrescuestlouis.org/Bloat.asp


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## homemadehitshow

Just wondering how they get the translation between 4.4% and 20%?


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## CharismaticMillie

homemadehitshow said:


> Just wondering how they get the translation between 4.4% and 20%?


Well, I don't have an official source to back up the 20% ish risk. But the 11.6% incidence and 42.4% lifetime risk for Danes is quoted.

ETA! Oh! I do actually have a source for a 25% lifetime risk for Standard Poodles.


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## CharismaticMillie

Beneﬁts of prophylactic gastropexy for dogs at risk of gastric dilatation-volvulus
Michael P. Warda,∗, Gary J. Patronekb, Lawrence T. Glickman

Lifetime risk of bloat for a Standard Poodle is stated to be 25.3%


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## homemadehitshow

Just mathematically I don't understand the difference between the two numbers. If life time risk is 50% that would imply 1 of 2 has the issue, so surely incidence risk should also be 50%

Just wondering really.


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## CharismaticMillie

homemadehitshow said:


> Just mathematically I don't understand the difference between the two numbers. If life time risk is 50% that would imply 1 of 2 has the issue, so surely incidence risk should also be 50%
> 
> Just wondering really.


I truly do not know. But, one of the authors that projects the lifetime risk of GDV in Standard Poodles as 25.3% was the epidemiologist who conducted the Purdue study, so surely there was a method to his madness! I'm really not a stats person......


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## CharismaticMillie

Okay...re: incidence versus lifetime risk. A very smart friend of mine (because I don't pretend to be good at statistics) tells me that incidence is the number of new cases that occur over a set period of time (usually a year?) and that lifetime risk takes into account many other factors (one of them being the increased risk based on age, etc.)


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## FireStorm

I will probably eventually have a gastropexy done on Hans, probably at UF teaching hospital (both because of cost and because they have a unit that specializes in it and will do traditional or laparoscopic.

Here's the way I think about it - you can agonize over statistics all you want, but the bottom line is either your dog bloats or they don't. I feel like if Hans bloats and I haven't had it done, I'll feel awful.

I also think there will be times where we are in remote areas and wouldn't be able to get to the vet in time if he did bloat. I've been in situations where it would have taken me hours to get emergency medical attention for a human, so I'm familiar with planning for that. I don't want to find myself in a situation where I have a bloated dog that is suffering terribly and nothing I can do. My mom lost a setter to bloat (bloated during a blizzard in a rural area) and she said it was horrible to watch. 

Even though the neuter is less invasive than a spay, you'll still be dealing with one time under anesthesia and one recovery period if you do both at the same time, so there is that to consider.

Also, on lifetime risk vs incidence, as CharismaticMille says, if we take 100 dogs and put them in a study for a period of time and 5 of them bloat then the incidence of bloat was 5%. But if we follow those dogs for their lifetimes, we'd probably see a different number. Maybe 25 of them bloat over the course of their lifetime so their lifetime risk is 25%. To me, a 25% lifetime risk is concerning, and makes me want to do the pexy.


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## Lex16

I am new to the poodle world and am going through reading and researching as much as I can so forgive me if this is a silly question/comment:

On a breeders website they extensively covered bloat and they were adamant that it comes solely from the breeder's poor ways and lack of experience (I am sorry if that offends anyone! Not my words or thoughts!) and they were adamant that none of the dogs they have bred have rarely/ever had a case of bloat.

Can I have some thoughts or inputs on that? 

I just feel that is seems unlikely that so many breeders across the world don't know what they are doing and therefore predispose their dogs to bloat.


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## fjm

I believe that there is research evidence that bloat is linked to both genetic and environmental factors. As far as I am aware, though, there is no scheme for officially registering dogs who have suffered from it, so it is down to how complete the breeder's records are in tracing lines through the generations, and how honest they are about the results...


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## CharismaticMillie

Lex16 said:


> I am new to the poodle world and am going through reading and researching as much as I can so forgive me if this is a silly question/comment:
> 
> On a breeders website they extensively covered bloat and they were adamant that it comes solely from the breeder's poor ways and lack of experience (I am sorry if that offends anyone! Not my words or thoughts!) and they were adamant that none of the dogs they have bred have rarely/ever had a case of bloat.
> 
> Can I have some thoughts or inputs on that?
> 
> I just feel that is seems unlikely that so many breeders across the world don't know what they are doing and therefore predispose their dogs to bloat.


Right. Nobody wants to lose a dog to bloat, or produce a dog that dies from bloat. The confirmed risk factors for bloat include breed, genetics and nervousness/stress.


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## barbiespoodle

I just wanted to say thank you for this thread. I lost my Chewie to bloat almost a year ago. It happened while I was at work and even though I rushed him straight in to the vet within a half hour of getting home, it was too late.

I've been kicking myself wondering if it was something I did. Did I play with him too rough before going to work? Was there some little sign I missed that would have made a difference? Should I have been feeding him on a raised platform as I heard I was suppose to do? So many questions. 

This thread has taken some of the guilt off my shoulders. I don't think I'll ever completely stop blaming myself, but it has been a great help knowing that I'm not alone.


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## im.speechliss

I don't want to take any chance of losing either of my dogs to bloat. Charlotte, my Spoo, will have a gastroplexy when she is spayed at 17 months. But what about my half Spoo, 25% Jack Russell, 12.5% Beagle, 12.5% Other mix? She was spayed very young by the rescue, at about 12 weeks of age. She has the frame of a small Spoo....long legs, deep chest.























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## FozziesMom

I have learned in my canine IBD forums that there is a connection between IBD and bloat; in that it's possible dogs with IBD may be more at risk for bloat. 

If your dog has GI symptoms that wax and wane, consider that a big warning sign. (signs include yellow morning vomit, diarrhea/vomiting that comes and goes mysteriously, not wanting to eat in the morning, trouble holding weight, etc).


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## im.speechliss

FozziesMom said:


> I have learned in my canine IBD forums that there is a connection between IBD and bloat; in that it's possible dogs with IBD may be more at risk for bloat.
> 
> If your dog has GI symptoms that wax and wane, consider that a big warning sign. (signs include yellow morning vomit, diarrhea/vomiting that comes and goes mysteriously, not wanting to eat in the morning, trouble holding weight, etc).


So, I took Daisy, my half Spoo mix to my vet and I asked her about doing a gastroplexy. She said that because Daisy is only 33#, she is less likely to suffer from BLOAT. She also said that since Daisy has already been spayed, it was not worth the risk of surgery to open her up to do the gastroplexy. Had Daisy not been spayed, she said she would have done the gastroplexy at the same time. Fortunately, Daisy has not had any GI issues. However her 10 week younger Spoo "sister," Charlotte has had GI issues. Charlotte is having a gastroplexy when she is spayed June 19th. Charlotte is at least 20# heavier than Daisy, so Charlotte is a bigger dog! I appreciate your valuable info so much! Thank you! Lana

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## rkj__

My wife and I debated a fair bit on whether or not to get our spoo Willard a pexy. 

It’s a tough call, because you don’t want to spend hundreds on preventing a single low to medium probability problem, when there are 50 other ways he could get sick or die. But, if our dog does bloat, it will either be fatal, or more expensive than the preventative surgery. We opted against pet insurance, so we don’t have that to fall back on either. 

In the end, we concluded that we are able to pay for the surgery, and we are going to have it done. It will be done laparoscopically, so hopefully it is successful, he heals up real quick, and lives a long and happy bloat free life. 

Willard’s appointment is set for a date in June. 




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## lily cd re

rkj_ as a thought on insurance vs. no insurance what our vet suggested when Lily and Peeves were puppies was to put the $$ that we would have spent on insurance in an emergencies only savings fund. We now have quite a bit of money there and could cover any urgent care needed. Another option is Care Credit.


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## angiefurst

My favorite standard (now deceased) was named Spencer Tracy. He was magnificent and absolutely perfect. At then age of 10 he developed bloat at about 11 o'clock at night. We were very lucky that we had an emergency vet. hospital nearby. It outrageously expensive - but I didn't care - just pull out my plastic and grimaced. I was thankful that we had such a facility. He recovered successfully. Unfortunately at the age of 12 he developed a pericardial effusion secondary to cancer. He died shortly after being diagnosed. Still miss that wonderful dog.


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## Skylar

You were lucky to have Spencer Tracy survive his bout of bloat, not all dogs do. But how sad that he died at 12 yo from pericardial effusion. He clearly meant a lot to you, he must have been a great dog.


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## angiefurst

*Say alert*

Thank you for your kind remarks.

I'd not heard of bloat before, but fortunately, I knew something was wrong. My normally calm dog starting pacing and became restless. When he refused his favorite forbidden snack, there was no doubt, something was definitely wrong. 

Behavior changes were the first signs. Owners with dog who show restlessness and behavior changes, please take your dog to the vet.


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## SpinningBunnyFluff

Our 2 year old Standard Poodle Snow developed bloat/twisted gut and went through surgery this morning. The prognosis is looking good so far. Luckily we caught it early, because my son had read a vet book recently and recognized the signs. Somehow I'd missed this thread until this evening, so I didn't have a clue just how serious things were until our vet confirmed the diagnosis and sent us directly to the Emergency Vet as he was still stable for the time being but wouldn't stay that way for long if we waited. 

After doing some reading up I've called his breeder to let her know, so that she could let Snow's siblings' owners know to be on the lookout since they would have an increased risk now. Apparently this is the first case she's had of a Poodle in her lines experiencing bloat (or if there have been others they must not have notified her), so she was both concerned about how Snow was doing and I could hear through the phone that she was trying to mentally bring up the breeding records to figure out which lines were affected.

Right now I'm just hoping and praying that he continues to do well and recovers to spend a long happy silly life with us. I do love the big galute!

I'm so grateful that my son has developed an interest in becoming a vet, had read that book describing the signs, and recognized them when it was still early enough to get Snow help. When our vet confirmed that he had come to the right conclusion, she went so far as to say she thought he's going to be a great vet.


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## Mfmst

Very impressed with your future vet’s quick reactions. Snow owes him lots of poodle love.


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## Eclipse

So glad that you/your son recognized the signs and got your boy to the vet quickly. Bloat and bloat/torsion are always emergencies where you often have precious little time to address the issue before it is too late. While not a good thing your dog bloated, it is likely a good thing that he was young and strong and was better able to handle the surgery. Dogs that are 9, 10, 11 etc. and bloat are usually not nearly as good surgical candidates and sometimes do not make it through or have complications afterwards and are lost then. I would assume your vet performed a gastropexy as part of the treatment. I lost my first Standard to bloat/torsion many, many years ago at 13 and she was not a surgical candidate so I had to let her go. Which I was happy to be able to do to end her suffering. Not sure if this is your first Standard, but if you ever get another one you might want to look into and discuss with your breeder a prophylactic gastopexy. Many breeders of dogs at high risk of bloat such as Great Danes, Standard Poodles, etc. often discuss with their puppy buyers as my breeder did with me. I do one on my bitches when I spay them (I don't spay until they have gone through a heat and are close to 2 so the stomach is fully developed). My breeder has not had bloat in her lines but I chose to do the pexy to stack the odds in my favor. A pexied dog can still bloat, but in most cases won't torsion so while you still need to get to a vet with a bloating dog ASAP, you can buy yourself some time in hoping torsion won't occur. Some vets don't believe in doing the prophylactic gastropexy considering it an unnecessary surgery, however, my vet is fully on board with doing it on high risk breeds. She used to be the director of the local animal emergency and did many pexies on dogs that came into the hospital in full bloat crisis. She said she would rather do the surgery on a young healthy dog than one that comes in already compromised and in major distress while bloating..I hope your boy's recovery continues to go well!


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## Streetcar

Oliver and I wish Snow a full and rapid healing. I too hope they were able to do the gastropexy, but if not, when he's all recovered, it may be something to consider. Congratulations to your son and his successful analysis, and to you all for not waving him off. You have an observant vet who made a good call, too, and who did not wave you off, either. All the way around, good job in a difficult situation requiring immediate action.


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## SpinningBunnyFluff

Yes the vet said he would do the gastropexy as a part of the procedure. The way he described the procedure, it wasn't even treated as something optional. Given the situation, I believe that is the way to handle it. I will take some comfort in knowing if he ever has bloat again it will be highly unlikely that it will be accompanied by twisting, thus making his chances of a good outcome that much better. 

As much as I love my poodle boy, I don't believe that we will ever get another Standard. If there's another dog in our future it will be a smaller dog, perhaps a miniature poodle or keeshond. He's a sweet dog, but such a BIG klutz. He can do some major damage without meaning any harm. Maybe once he finishes growing out of his puppy brain that will improve some. Fingers Crossed!!

Currently waiting on a call this evening updating me on Snow's progress. Of course since I haven't heard anything yet that is indicative that he's doing well, as they would have called sooner if there was reason for concern.


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## zooeysmom

Wow, I'm so glad to hear Snow survived the torsion and surgeries! Your son is a hero!!


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## Skylar

Spinningbunnyfluff, I’m so sorry your poodle Snow suffered a scary episode of bloat. Thank goodness your son is not only smart but observant and you took action immediately. 

I hope Snow has a smooth and easy recovery, especially now that the holiday season is upon us.


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## lily cd re

I hope Snow had a peaceful night and that his prognosis is good this morning. Please let us know how things are when you have a chance.


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## SpinningBunnyFluff

Snow came home late this morning. He's not as active as normal, has an extra large shaved area on his belly, and has been saddled with a cone. But he's home and doing extremely well. He's had a couple accidents in the house, so I suspect that he's not able to hold it in his bladder as he normally would. Just means we have to be extra attentive and giving plenty of opportunities to relieve himself in the proper place. Right now it's not too hard to keep him quiet, but I've got a feeling that in a few days he's going to be a handful. So all in all I think we were very lucky and our biggest Christmas gift this year is that Snow is still with us and well on the way to being healthy again.


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## Mollydog9

Happy for you that your boy is doing well. My girl Molly who is 9 got bloated the other night. My wife used to be a registered vet tech and she knew the signs immediately (Molly had unproductive retching). We rushed her and they were able to siphon the gas out without opening her up (she did not torse). We're still dealing with some issues at the moment, I made a lengthy post in the Poodle Health area that is awaiting moderation. Hoping it goes through so we can potentially gain some insight that we haven't thought of yet.

The ER discharged her yesterday but she wouldn't eat for us at all. So we had to send her back for tube feeding. She was eating for the vets previously but not us...


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## zooeysmom

Aww, Mollydog, I hope Molly will be okay! So incredibly scary. 

I also hope Snow is on the mend. 

Sending best wishes to both families :love2:


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## SpinningBunnyFluff

Mollydog9 said:


> My girl Molly who is 9 got bloated the other night. My wife used to be a registered vet tech and she knew the signs immediately (Molly had unproductive retching). We rushed her and they were able to siphon the gas out without opening her up (she did not torse). We're still dealing with some issues at the moment, I made a lengthy post in the Poodle Health area that is awaiting moderation. Hoping it goes through so we can potentially gain some insight that we haven't thought of yet.
> 
> The ER discharged her yesterday but she wouldn't eat for us at all. So we had to send her back for tube feeding. She was eating for the vets previously but not us...


I'm so glad that your wife knew the signs and you were able to get Molly help quickly. Snow has been eating really well for us on a bland diet of rice and ground turkey per the vet's discharge instructions. No idea if that's the kind of thing you were trying to feed your Molly, but perhaps it would help when she's able to come home again. 

I worked from home today so that I could keep a closer eye on Snow, he's doing well enough that I feel comfortable going back to the office tomorrow. I can tell that he's still feeling rather sore when it's time for his next dose of pain medication. He doesn't want to sit down, and will start to sit then pop right back up almost as if to say "Nope, can't do that right now". He's also been annoying the heck out of me by catching his cone on everything, and my laptop in particular. Makes it very interesting trying to get things done on the computer. 

I'm starting to see more and more of his normal rambunctiousness which makes me happy even when he's doing something that annoys the heck out of me. Just so happy he's still here and able to have the puppy moments that get under my skin.


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## Mollydog9

That is so awesome to hear man. You are very very lucky. My girl has been a bit of a lemon but I love her so.

I'd love to paste the entire post in here but I would be violating the forum rules and I don't want to step on any toes. I will give you an update on Molly though.

We’ve taken Molly back to the vet hospital this morning hoping that she would eat and begin to put some weight back on. Last update, still not eating, and shaking and hypersalivating when the staff are even discussing food. Latest update, my wife is taking her home tonight, we will hit her with more immunosupressants, mertazipine, tramadol and potentially another anti-depressant.


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## SpinningBunnyFluff

Snow continues to improve while at the same time driving us all batty. He broke his first cone after only a week, so we picked another up from Petsmart. Then on Monday I was a bit concerned about how his incision was looking, so I took him back to the vet. Turns out that he'd been doing more than a little licking of the incision because the new cone was too short, and it was infected. They removed the staples to help with the healing and sent us home with antibiotics and a new cone. Since I knew that he had managed to lick at his would a little bit with the first one, the new cone was even longer. It lasted all of 3 days before he broke it. Given how quickly he was destroying them by running into things, I wasn't about to waste money on yet another one. So I sent my son to find one of his old t-shirts that doesn't fit anymore and put it on Snow. It covers about 2/3rds of the incision and seems to be helping much more than the cones ever did. I also picked up some bitter apple spray, which sort of works. 

Today I finally had a chance to groom him since he's healed quite a bit and he doesn't look nearly as silly now with the areas that they trimmed for the surgery and IV. It just looks like a really bad sanitary trim now. 

He's completely back to eating his normal food again, although I'm pretty sure he'd prefer it if we'd continue feeding him the rice and ground Turkey. Some of his training has been especially hard because obviously asking to sit before going out or coming in is totally different now that we're taking him out on a leash and he's wearing a t-shirt. I'm muddling through it and it seems to be sinking in, but my son is really struggling and it's spiking his anxiety. Sigh. I've been reminding him that we've all been through a lot in the last two weeks and that dogs don't generalize well. A small change is enough to throw them off and he's had a lot of different stuff to deal with in the last couple of weeks. 

Give that the t-shirt seems to be helping the wound heal the most, I ordered a couple of Cover Me by Tui. I'm really hoping that they get here quickly, as I'm pretty sure they are going to make a big difference in how well he heals. I really wish I'd thought to go ahead and order them right after the surgery, so that I could already be using them. And the really funny thing is that my son really likes how he looks wearing the t-shirt and wants to keep dressing him up even after he's healed! Oh my, that just seems so wrong to me with a Standard Poodle.


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## SpinningBunnyFluff

Snow had a checkup with his regular vet today and we got the go ahead to let him stop wearing the doggie onesie. It really helped a bunch and he's healing really well. There's still one small part that isn't completely closed that we especially need to keep an eye on. I'm so relieved that he's well on the road to recovery.


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## LadyLucy

Having my 16 month old male go in for neutering today the vet suggested tacking his stomach while he was under. We are retired and watch our money, not that we couldn’t afford it but the whole last minute hey we should do this was annoying. I don’t understand why they didn’t suggest this before and it was never an issue with our female ( 5yrs old). We opted not to do it now, feeling guilty for not doing it? We had a Dane years ago that had chronic bloat but never had torsion 🙏🏻. She took gasX for years.


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## Rose n Poos

I suppose it's possible that they assumed you were aware of the potential issues but dropping it in as a by-the-way would take me aback too. I would definitely want to have discussed the procedure and the vet's experience doing so before I proceeded.

That said, it is being suggested and done more frequently in the last decade or so. It is a lifesaver, if the stomach torsions. There's very little time after that happens, not usually enough to get to a vet.

It would be less expensive to have combined the two procedures and a lower risk of anesthesia complications since he'd go under only once.

This recent thread, and more, discuss this in more depth.
(9) Free Feeding & Bloat in Standards | Poodle Forum

This from another recent thread that went a bit off-topic:

Pexy can reduce incidence of future bloat and torsion. Bloat can still happen, can become dangerous, and torsion could happen if the stomach detaches.
Numbers and percentages vary with study, depending on the nature, focus, and sampling of the study.

RECURRENCE
Without gastropexy, the rate of recurrence of GDV is 55% to 75%, and median survival times are significantly shorter than for patients treated surgically.10,21,25 Therefore, surgery should always be recommended. In two studies,26,27 the rate of recurrence of GDV after gastropexy was 0%, but recurrence has been documented rarely.10,28 Occurrence of gastric dilatation after gastropexy is reported as 5% to 11%.21,25–27
Gastric Dilatation and Volvulus: Stabilization and Surgery - Today's Veterinary Practice (todaysveterinarypractice.com)

The outlook for bloat is brightening, with increasing interest in surgery to prevent GDV. Prophylactic gastropexy surgically attaches the stomach to the abdominal wall to prevent twisting. “While some dogs with gastropexy will still bloat, (gastric dilatation), the gastropexy should prevent their stomach from twisting (volvulus) and the need for emergency surgery,” says Dr. Rawlings. “It’s rare, if ever, for gastropexied dogs to have a life-threatening bloat.”
AKC Canine Health Foundation | Preventing Torsion When Bloating with Prophylactic Gastropexy (akcchf.org)

There doesn't seem to be any official record of a dog dying of a new torsion after a pexy from a reliable site, but no medical site will say it _cannot_ happen.
As Starvt noted, the pexy can come undone/detached.
There's a number of methods mentioned in this link. I don't know which is most prevalent currently for prophylactic surgery.
Occurrence and recurrence of gastric dilatation with or without volvulus after incisional gastropexy (nih.gov)


Military Working Dogs US
(e) Final Acceptance. Dogs meeting medical and training criteria are officially accepted, given a permanent tattoo number and assigned an ideal weight range. Intact females and cryptorchid males are neutered at this time, any necessary dental care is performed, and all dogs receive a prophylactic gastropexy. Dogs enter training following recovery...

b. GDV was a major cause of death in MWDs for decades; however, GDV is a rare occurrence in DOD MWDs now, since performance of a prophylactic gastropexy was instituted in 2009 for all new DOD MWDs. In this procedure, a permanent surgical adhesion between the stomach and inner peritoneal wall is created during an elective procedure that prevents volvulus and has dramatically reduced the incidence of GDV and gastric dilatation in the MWD population. However, veterinary personnel may still encounter emergently ill working dogs with GDV, because most Special Operations Forces, contractor and allied working dogs have not been prophylactically gastropexied. Although rare, failure of the surgical adhesion site after a gastropexy has been reported.

ARN17825_TBMED298_FINAL.pdf (army.mil)


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