# Socialization: Getting along with other dogs



## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

I disagree about this being a poodle thing, it's not. There are tons of poodles on here that play with other dogs and have no issues, mine included. They are an "aloof" breed, meaning they typically don't seek out friends, but they are not selectively aggressive with other breeds. I have noticed that they seem to "recognize" other poodles though.

You need to start slowly and make each meeting a positive experience. I would contact a behaviourist at this point, one with a positive reinforcement philosophy. My opinion is that this is fear based behaviour, as you missed her original "I'm not comfortable with this" cues, and forced her into doing things she was clearly uncomfortable with (holding her so other dogs could smell her, bringing other dogs into HER yard, etc.) Her reaction is pretty much saying "I don't trust that you'll protect me, so I'm going to protect myself".

Stay away from dog parks. It's a terrible place for a fearful dog. Too overwhelming, too many variables. 
Contact a behaviourist (NOT a trainer) for further help on where to go from here.


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

Locket said:


> I disagree about this being a poodle thing, it's not. There are tons of poodles on here that play with other dogs and have no issues, mine included. They are an "aloof" breed, meaning they typically don't seek out friends, but they are not selectively aggressive with other breeds. I have noticed that they seem to "recognize" other poodles though.
> 
> You need to start slowly and make each meeting a positive experience. I would contact a behaviourist at this point, one with a positive reinforcement philosophy. My opinion is that this is fear based behaviour, as you missed her original "I'm not comfortable with this" cues, and forced her into doing things she was clearly uncomfortable with (holding her so other dogs could smell her, bringing other dogs into HER yard, etc.) Her reaction is pretty much saying "I don't trust that you'll protect me, so I'm going to protect myself".
> 
> ...


I agree. This site: International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC) has a search for behaviorists in your area.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Karma'sACat said:


> I agree. This site: International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC) has a search for behaviorists in your area.


_We have five poodles and all of them are curious about and friendly with other dogs they meet. I would say that this is not normal behavior for a poodle. I would definitely look into the site recommended to see if you can get some professional help to assess the situation and help you with the problem. I wish you the best in working with you poodle to bring it around.
_


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I agree with everyone above. Poodles are generally friendly with other dogs and people. Even my Millie who is a bit on the timid side, can't help but wiggle and waggle up to friendly strangers (human and canine). I am confident that you can work on your poodle's behavior though and see some improvements!


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## Rocketagility (Apr 27, 2010)

All my poodle are and have been dog and people friendly. If I had a dog that was fearfull I would work on building my dogs confidence you say your dog turns over for strange people that is a shy dog. Again I would build confidence. The only place anyone can pat your dog is under the chin if he rolls over the patting is done. When walking the dog I would treat him and if I saw a dog coming way before you got too close I would start treating your dog for just looking at the other dog your dog is acting like he is out of fear, you need to show your dog that other dogs mean treats rain from the sky. Every walk take treats find things for your dog to do like climb on play ground equipment or park benches or jump a small bush they call it urban agility have fun with your dog. Start playing tug with your dog and take your tug toy with you on walks tugging also builds confidence.

I would not be doing dog parks and I would not be forcing your dog to meet other dogs this forced butt sniff I am sure didn't help. As you work the counter conditioning of other dogs and work on his confidence you can start getting closer to other dogs and try to find stable dogs that your dog likes and give them a chance to meet and play but supervised and controlled by you.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree - she missed out on early socialisation, and then had bad experiences with other dogs right in the middle of a fear period (I am interested to know who recommended forcing her to stay still to be sniffed - I have never heard of that one?). Poppy could very easily have been the same - she too is tiny, and was very wary of dogs we didn't know. With a lot of work - puppy classes, meetings with kind dogs on neutral ground, giving her lots of time to think about it when we met dogs out walking - and with Sophy's excellent social skills as an example, she has gradually got more confident.

Bella may never be a social butterfly, but at the moment she is showing classic signs of fear aggression, and that could potentially be dangerous - for her, for other dogs, and possibly for other people. There are several excellent programmes for working on this, but at all costs avoid anyone who is rooted in "dominance", or recommends any punishment based approach - she is protecting her space because she is afraid, and the very last thing you want to do is make her more afraid.

Look up BAT (Behavior Adjustment Training), and find a good behaviourist to help you. And show her you can protect her - my neighbour's little Border terrier is prone to snarking at dogs that come too close - it is amazing how much more relaxed she is if I simply step between her and the other dog, while keeping the lead loose.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

A Toy Poodle has no business going to a dog park! It is dangerous and overwhelming for such a small dog. I think every year a small dog is killed at our dog parks by a large dog who sees it as prey!

My guess is that you created her current problem by trying to force dog interactions on her. Now she is afraid and acting out. BTW.... what book said that you were supposed to pick up your small dog and "present its rear" to other dogs? This is just about the worst advice I have ever heard. I can't imagine how terrified and vulnerable Bella must have felt!

Dogs are companions for humans, not for other dogs. I don't think we should expect our dogs to romp around and play with other dogs. Many dogs of many breeds simply prefer people. I do, however, expect all dogs to behave in public and tolerate the presence of other dogs (this means a comfortable distance.... no dog should have to tolerate another dog up in her face).

Bella is so beautifully attached to you. Use this to your advantage. Build her confidence through work. Give her a job to do. Teach her tricks and obedience commands. Then when you encounter another dog in public, put her to work. If you have laid a good training foundation, she will focus on you and her work and she will tune out the other dog.


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

It looks to me like pretty much everyone that has responded so far has more than one dog. Could it be that dogs raised in a "pack" end up more comfortable meeting other dogs in general? I've been keeping an eye on the sweetest mini who is at our poodle rescue now, wondering if having a "pack mate" might help Beau be a little more confident on our walks. (Or maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to get another poodle.  )


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## murieics (May 10, 2009)

LEUllman said:


> It looks to me like pretty much everyone that has responded so far has more than one dog. Could it be that dogs raised in a "pack" end up more comfortable meeting other dogs in general? I've been keeping an eye on the sweetest mini who is at our poodle rescue now, wondering if having a "pack mate" might help Beau be a little more confident on our walks. (Or maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to get another poodle.  )


I think this is a good point- and could partially be true. But I think that, really, all it ends up meaning is that "only dog" families need to be especially vigilant about their dog's socialization.

Look at it kind of like raising children- of course, if you have five kids- your kids will more than likely have an easier time playing with other kids- they are around children all the time. Even if they were homeschooled (analogous to those dogs that don't get as much of a chance to meet other dogs outside of their homes- so no puppy classes, no doggie daycare or playdates, etc), they would still do ok playing with other children when they did actually meet them outside of their home, because they are already used to playing with others.

Now think about the only child that is homeschooled. If the parents don't make sure that child gets out and gets a chance to meet other kids through extracurricular-type activities, they are going to be much more socially awkward and anxious when they are actually put in those situations. And if that child already has a shy personality- the problem is just going to be that much worse (I feel qualified to make this analogy, as I was homeschooled for a few years as a kid  ).


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

Yes dogs who are in a pack learn to read dogs easier then one who never sees dogs. 

however it doesn't make them better with OTHER dogs. 

This is where places like PUPPY obedience come in SO handy- they learn to be around other dogs they learn that other dogs wont' flip them and hurt them- they are all on leash but around each other. 

IF it was me i'd be looking for a behavoir expert OR looking into the Control UNleashed stuff. . (Or both!)


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

LEUllman said:


> It looks to me like pretty much everyone that has responded so far has more than one dog. Could it be that dogs raised in a "pack" end up more comfortable meeting other dogs in general? I've been keeping an eye on the sweetest mini who is at our poodle rescue now, wondering if having a "pack mate" might help Beau be a little more confident on our walks. (Or maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to get another poodle.  )


I certainly would not want to put you off getting another poodle, but if anything I think the evidence points the other way. Second dogs - especially puppies - are notorious for not getting sufficient socialising with dogs outside the family. It is so easy to rely on the household "pack", and not make the effort to walk and train the new pup on its own, with the result that they often lack confidence and can be downright fearful if they are ever separated from the other family dogs. I think where it can help is when the first dog/s have very good social skills, and teach these to the new dog, but it can easily go the other way, with them picking up each other's bad habits, rather than good!


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

fjm said:


> I certainly would not want to put you off getting another poodle, but if anything I think the evidence points the other way. Second dogs - especially puppies - are notorious for not getting sufficient socialising with dogs outside the family. It is so easy to rely on the household "pack", and not make the effort to walk and train the new pup on its own, with the result that they often lack confidence and can be downright fearful if they are ever separated from the other family dogs. I think where it can help is when the first dog/s have very good social skills, and teach these to the new dog, but it can easily go the other way, with them picking up each other's bad habits, rather than good!


Not to hijack this excellent thread, but the poodle that's caught my eye is about 8 years old. "You would never guess he is 8 years old by his attitude and playfulness. Great on a leash and we can't say enough about this well mannered boy." Haven't met him yet, and not sure I should - I doubt I could resist.


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## BellaDella (Sep 25, 2010)

I just spent so much time replying to everyone, but it's gone. I should have copied and pasted into Word, ugh! 

For whatever reason, I get logged out before I am finished and when I hit reply, it asks me to log in again. Now, I can't find my post back to all who replied. 

Thank you everyone, will try to post back to your questions. 

Hitting the send her b4 I time out.


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## BellaDella (Sep 25, 2010)

Dear Locket,

Thx for ur reply. I am so happy to hear that there are poodles out there that play with other dogs, just haven't met them yet. Maybe one day we will be so fortunate. 

In an effort to shorten my post to a a timelime, etc.. I did leave out that Bella had been to her dog friend's homes well before they came here. She'd also walked beside these same canine friends on walks b4 they were invited into her space. She knows them by name. Rocky and Cocoa. When she goes out she looks forward to meeting them with loads of treats for her good behaviour. But, in the end, you are correct, they did come into her yard but after her meeting them on their turf and then again on no ones turf. The reaction wasn't any different to when she went into their yard or when she meets them on her walks. Thankfully the owner's are friends and they allow Bella and us to try. 

We're done with the dog parks. We tried, we failed. 

Also, a behaviourist may be just what we need. Will seek that out. I did and do not want to take the vet's advice that "this is life with some dogs". 

Thx again for your input.


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## BellaDella (Sep 25, 2010)

Dear Karma's Cat,

Thx for the link. I did visit, only one is close, after a quick read it appears that they are trainer's. URBAN DAWGS - Positive Dog Training in Central NJ for dogs of all ages!

I will read further into the 3 in 25 miles on Sat. 

Thx again!


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## BellaDella (Sep 25, 2010)

Dear spoospirit,

I am so happy to hear that your babies all get along with other dogs, gives me hope.

We will be looking into who is available nearby that can help us and Bella on our quest!

Thx again.


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## BellaDella (Sep 25, 2010)

Dear ChocolateMillie,

Thx for the vote of confidence, we're hopeful too. We are so happy to hear from others on this topic. Lots of valuable advice...


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## BellaDella (Sep 25, 2010)

*Found the info on rear nose connection*

Hi Everyone,

I've been pouring through all my books and magazines to find where I read the rear nose connection. My husband finally asks what I'm looking for and I tell him that some members of the forum asked where we read this technique. All of a sudden, :doh:I recall exactly where I _saw _this technique. 

Bella is just like the dog you see in the video.

How to Sneak a Dog Into Submission Video - Dog Whisperer - Aggression - National Geographic Channel Videos

Anyhow, not tryng to rehash the issue, just wanted to share where the info came from.

Thanks,
BellaDella


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Good Grief! I've never actually seen Caesar in action. I know that people complain about some of his methods and now I see why! Holy cow! That is totally inappropriate and almost guaranteed to either get the handler bitten or freak the dog out even more.

Do you see the way the dog stares at the on coming dogs? It is not thinking about its owner or focusing on the work the owner wants it to do. If the Schnauzer in that video were mine, I would set up a working relationship in a safe, distraction free setting before I ever took it out in public. Then, once in public, I would put it through its paces whenever I saw a dog coming our way. The Schnauzer would be so busy "step'n and fetch'n" for me, it would have no time to think about the other dog.

Success in work builds confidence in dogs.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Blimey - that has to be one of the most peculiar bits of "dog training" I have ever seen. I think it is more likely to increase the Schnauzer's anxiety - and therefore aggression - than reduce it - and to ensure the little dog now bites people as well, in an effort to stay safe. It is extremely bad advice, even for CM! If a dog is inclined to be fearful or shy, the very last approach to take is one based on dominance and force - you need to reduce anxiety levels, not increase them, and to convince the dog you can keep him safe, not make him fear you even more than other dogs. Confidence building, as Cbrand says, behaviour changing and de-sensitising (as in FozziesMum's work on Fozzie's resource guarding), teeny-tiny steps over a long period of time ... not dramatic television, but it works!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

BellaDella - Patricia McConnell has written a couple of booklets you may find helpful (you may already have them!). "Feisty Fido: help for the leash reactive dog" and "The cautious canine: how to help dogs conquer their fears".

Have you considered how your own reaction may be influencing Bella's behaviour? I know how it can go - I spot dog in the distance, and shorten my dog's lead in readiness. Strange dog approaches - I freeze, and tighten my grip on the lead. My dog begins to grumble, and to pull on the lead - I pull back, scold the dog, and am rigid with stress ... From my dog's point of view, everything simply confirms what she already suspected - a strange dog approaching signals Bad Stuff for Poodles, and she had better do everything she can to make it go away as quickly as possible, and protect both herself and her frightened owner ...


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> just haven't met them yet. Maybe one day we will be so fortunate.


This just made me sad : (((. I am wondering if all little poodles in your area are coming from the same breeder or group of breeders that use same breeding stock hwell:. Yes - socialization is extremely important, but just to have so many poodles that do not play with other dogs or even with each other is strange :noidea:

I recently went to see a "Poodle Parade" and there were a ton of poodles as well as other dogs - all playing and socializing while waiting "to parade" ...

I really hope your puppy will be able to relax soon with proper training or at least relax to the point that it can walk comfortably on a street.

Wishing you the best of luck !!!! : )))


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## BellaDella (Sep 25, 2010)

*Now you know*

I was so happy to find and share Cesar Milan's technique, good, bad or indifferent. We tried his technique on two occasions and it did indeed work. I know that some of you disagree with the approach, and I am OK with that. I really wanted to share just where my info came from as requested. I cannot respond the the reasoning or the credentials of the video link I posted where the nose rear connection thing came from but according to his website, Cesar Milan can be contacted, via this link: https://www.cesarsway.com/contact

An update: On Bella's walk today, she came across Rocky, whom she knows by name and house. If you ask her to find Rocky she will guide you to his porch! She has known Rocky since her coming to live with us (No, Rocky never sniffed Bella's rear without her allowing it:rolffleyes:. Today, Bella and Rocky walked the hood, side by side, not a first but a first in that Bella was not the one growling and lunging toward anything that moved, Rocky did that today! There was no growling, pulling or motion from Bella that could be construed as agressive, shy nor fearful. But alas, there are not many Rocky's around and Bella has to get used to the fact that she is not the only dog in town. Bella is trained to walk beside us and when another dog approaches there is no fear from us, rather we fear for the oncomer. That is our battle now. We want other dogs to approach and allow Bella to make friends, (but as some put it, she is a human companion - and the BEST you could find) but Bella's demeanor (like the schnauzer in the video) forces neighbors to turn in the opposite direction (I'd probably do the same). We give treats to Bella as the other dog approaches, she turns her nose up. Just like grooming, she tolerates it but will say no THANK YOU to the treat.

It is only through our hopes and dreams that we will be able to take Bella out, beyond our little world. Our shore vacation forced us and Bella to move beyond our turf. We could have gone anywhere but we choose a place where Bella was a welcome guest (that was not easy and will take another thread to explain). 

It does appear the the slow introduction works best. In Bella's case it has been a very slow intro. 

Lastly, I came to the poodle forum to meet other poodle owners, to learn and to possibly share. Thanks again for all your responses. It's been a pleasure reading them and meeting all of you! 

BellaDella


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## BellaDella (Sep 25, 2010)

wishpoo said:


> This just made me sad : (((. I am wondering if all little poodles in your area are coming from the same breeder or group of breeders that use same breeding stock hwell:. Yes - socialization is extremely important, but just to have so many poodles that do not play with other dogs or even with each other is strange :noidea:
> 
> I recently went to see a "Poodle Parade" and there were a ton of poodles as well as other dogs - all playing and socializing while waiting "to parade" ...
> 
> ...



We drove 7 hours north to upper CT to get Bella, definitely not from the same lineage. She is starting, FINALLY to relax...


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## BellaDella (Sep 25, 2010)

I wish we had poodle parades!


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

It was really fun : ))) !!!! I definitely had my "poodle-fix" for a day LOL !!!! It was also fun to see and compare some that came from different lines and also some were involved in obedience training and did fantastic tricks  !!!!

ALLLLLLL possible colors and sizes too LOL PLUS photo-shoot part : )))) !!!! I wish it was bigger parade though : )), but it is quiet new thing in my area also, so maybe over the next few years it will hopefully grow : )))) !!!!


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## poodleholic (Jan 6, 2010)

> =BellaDella;125164]I was so happy to find and share Cesar Milan's technique, good, bad or indifferent. We tried his technique on two occasions and it did indeed work. I know that some of you disagree with the approach, and I am OK with that. I really wanted to share just where my info came from as requested. I cannot respond the the reasoning or the credentials of the video link I posted where the nose rear connection thing came from but according to his website, Cesar Milan can be contacted, via this link: https://www.cesarsway.com/contact


Cesar Milan has NO credentials, and what he did in that video to that poor little Schnauzer made me sick. Please, there IS hope for fear-aggressive dogs who display dog-to-dog aggression, but it's NOT to FORCE them, nor even to expose them to other dogs out and about UNLESS you keep within the fearful dog's comfort zone (BEFORE a reaction occurs). Here's a link that will explain why CM's stuff is so flawed and wrong: http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

I feel that I know what I'm talking about because I've worked with foster dogs who had issues w/other dogs, and I have MY OWN DOG who came to me at 16 months old with serious dog-aggression, and was also reactive inside the car and house to dogs walking by. My window terrorist is cured. He no longer tries to attack other dogs. He lives with two other dogs and a cat, and we frequently foster. HOW? Behavior modification through desensitization and counter conditioning. 



> Bella is trained to walk beside us and when another dog approaches there is no fear from us, rather we fear for the oncomer. That is our battle now. We want other dogs to approach and allow Bella to make friends, (but as some put it, she is a human companion - and the BEST you could find) but Bella's demeanor (like the schnauzer in the video) forces neighbors to turn in the opposite direction (I'd probably do the same). We give treats to Bella as the other dog approaches, she turns her nose up.


She won't take treats because she's in the zone - pushed over her threshhold. Don't do this to her. When you see an oncoming dog, put yourself between Bella and the other dog by turning left in an arc, using happy talk or whatever it takes to keep her attention _on you_, and get far enough away from the other dog to where Bella does NOT REACT. THEN ask for a behavior and give her a treat. 

In addition to walking the neightborhood, and keeping Beau within his comfort zone when other dogs came upon the scene, I took him to the parking lots of pet stores, kept him within his comfort zone when other dogs were coming and going, praised and treated for calm behavior, gradually decreased the distance until we were standing/sitting by the store's door while other handlers and their dogs were coming and going. Beau really isn't into other dogs, although he enjoys his housemates, Maddy, Lucia, and the cat, Tommy. I don't care if he likes other dogs or not, only that he isn't reactive to them. He is who he is (and that's a wonderful companion), so I take care to be aware of his body language, just in case. He's learned over the years to leave me in charge and to relax, because he trusts me (I don't force him into situations that make him uncomfortable, but when we come upon one, I take care of things; he doesn't have to).


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## Rocketagility (Apr 27, 2010)

LEUllman said:


> It looks to me like pretty much everyone that has responded so far has more than one dog. Could it be that dogs raised in a "pack" end up more comfortable meeting other dogs in general? I've been keeping an eye on the sweetest mini who is at our poodle rescue now, wondering if having a "pack mate" might help Beau be a little more confident on our walks. (Or maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to get another poodle.  )


Well I just got my second dog a puppy 4 months ago so I wouldn't say my dogs are the way they are because of my little pack. But if you need a reason to get a puppy then I am sure this would be a good reason. lol


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## BellaDella (Sep 25, 2010)

*Thank You Poodleholic*

I've yet to get used to the forum thing, just saw your post. I have to figure out how to see the replies without having to open the old post. 

Thanks for your reply and the link, I've saved it to my favorites so that I can read through. I will follow your advice, have printed it out and will start slow again. The last thing I want to do is upset Bella. She is definitely a "window terrorist". I really don't care about her having dog friends perse but I do care about bringing her out and having her be comfortable being out. She loves to go out but once another dog is in her line of sight, she goes beserk. It's so embarrassing. Hubby has been working on it with Rocky, our neighbor's dog, after his efforts, I can't say that she's crazy about Rocky but she tolerates Rocky living on her circle, LOL. 

Someone else posted to bring a tug toy on the walk/outing to get her focus on me, will incorporate that too, great idea.


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## BellaDella (Sep 25, 2010)

Rocketagility said:


> Well I just got my second dog a puppy 4 months ago so I wouldn't say my dogs are the way they are because of my little pack. But if you need a reason to get a puppy then I am sure this would be a good reason. lol


I've been hinting to hubby about getting a mini and then a standard, so that we can have one of each, hehe. But first we have to get the whole dog ownership thing downpat before bringing in another. He never had a dog but he thinks he's a dog expert now that he's trained Bella. He never picked up a book on child-rearing but he's always reading about dog trainingroud:


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