# Abrupt behavior change



## tnthomas (Jun 9, 2018)

We have a 2-1/2 yr. old black female miniature named Angel. We adopted her from our 

groomer's assistant after one of our Schnauser-poms passed. 

Angel and our other dog are crated in our bedroom, and we have had a

ritual where we all go outside "to go potty" before bedtime. 

This routine has worked like clockwork for almost a year and a half, up until about 2 months 

ago. Angel goes out, but sometimes doesn't have to potty(pee), instead sniffs around and 

doesn't take care of business. Then, instead of trotting down the hallway to go to bed, she 

wants to detour to the sofa. We get her rounded up and ushered into her crate. About 1/2 

later she starts her high pitched whine. Letting her get up and taking her outside does 

not usually culminate in her having to do any kind of potty.

Why the abrupt change? How to "fix this"?


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Usually with a sudden change in behaviour it is something physical (eg pain from an injury, malaise from an infection), or reaction to a change in the environment (stress from a change in routine, disrupted exercise schedule, new people in the house, etc, etc). If this is an occasional thing, rather than most days, I would look at the pattern of the day preceding it - any differences in the amount of exercise, food, meal times, general busyness, etc? Do you go to bed at the same time every night, or sometimes sit up late and cuddle her on the sofa? It could be as simple as that she is not yet ready for bed and values sofa time so much she would like a little more of it, in which case a more active day and a few minutes sofa cuddling before going up to bed may sort it!


----------



## asuk (Jan 6, 2017)

Unfortunately it sounds like she got smarter. She whines, you let her out. She may not need to pee, just wants to see if she can get more time outside her crate. If your routine is like clockwork, she is testing you, if you put her to bed earlier than usual, she may not be ready for bed.

For me, I'd do your usual routine, if she pees, great, if not, bedtime as usual. She may not need to pee. She whines, you ignore, easier said than done and you'll lose a few days of sleep but she will soon learn. Just ensure that she is healthy, no UTI,etc.

There are some nights where my mini doesn't need to pee before bedtime and still fine in the am.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

If the change is sudden and consistent then I would think it is time for a vet check. On the other hand whining and getting let out of the crate measures as a win for her and quickly becomes self rewarding/self reinforcing behavior.


----------



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I would also rule out the vet. If everything is fine, here’s what I would do :

1- if not already done, teach her to pee on command

2- make sure she will need to pee before her last trip outside. That means no going outside for at least 3-4 hours before bedtime.

3- when bedtime comes, take her outside one last time and say the command word for her to pee. Stay outside until she does, even if it takes 30 minutesor more (after a few times, she will do it fast, on command). You need to be 100% sure she did it.

4- after she’s peed, she goes back straight in her crate. The first times, bring her back in your arms and put her on the floor right in front of the crate and guide her in. After a while she will go straight in by herself.

5- if she whines, now that you’re sure she doesn’t need to go, you tell her to be quiet and leave her in the crate until morning.

After 2 weeks of this, maybe less, you should have no more problems.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

My minipoo often doesn't need to urinate just before bed nor is she in a rush to potty in the morning either. It's possible your dog doesn't need this last potty break before bed. Especially since you say when you take her out when she whines, she still doesn't potty.

My dog is always taken out on a leash and she has to sit while we put the leash on. She started this odd behavior where she would walk away from us and the leash, backing up, going around furniture and into other rooms. She would also turn her head. We learned to trust her - if we say "leash" and she doesn't immediately sit down to get her leash on, and if she is turning her head away saying "no", then we know that she doesn't have to go out before bed. She's tired and doesn't want to go outside; she just wants to go to bed to sleep for the night.

Do you do anything to transition to a "settle down" before going to bed? Going outside to potty, especially if the weather is nasty can be invigorating and then you crate the dogs for sleep. Maybe a short quiet cuddle time with soothing petting just before crate time? My dog sleeps on the bed and she lies next to me for some petting before sleeping.

You will need to sleep through and ignore the whining for a few nights to break this habit - that's going to be tough. But if she is consistently not going potty when you let her out, the she isn't whining for a potty break.


----------



## tnthomas (Jun 9, 2018)

Oh rats, It looks like the reply I made last night didn't make it, perhaps I forgot to click"submit". :banghead:

Anyway, just wanted to thank everyone for their responses. I think it's true that Angel might have "got smarter" and just wants more couch time and less crate time.

For now I'm keeping her up with me, while my wife goes to bed at her usual(early) time. I 
have her on the leash and take her out one more time before going to bed. From what I see, having to pee is *not* the issue.

I know we're taking the 'easy way' out, but Angel is relentless with her high pitched whine, when she's unhappy. Trying to "sheez" her like Cesar Millan does not work.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

tnthomas said:


> Oh rats, It looks like the reply I made last night didn't make it, perhaps I forgot to click"submit". :banghead:
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to thank everyone for their responses. I think it's true that Angel might have "got smarter" and *just wants more couch time and less crate time.*
> 
> ...



Well now it sounds like your solution gives her a "win." Not what I would aim for myself...When my older niece was an infant with a complex set of cardiac issues she would turn blue if she cried at any length. Her parents worried about letting her cry and injuring herself. The cardiologist told them she couldn't do so and unless they wanted her to be a very spoiled adult they should let her learn how to soothe herself. I think you are soothing a crying baby who has figured out how to manipulate you. Sorry for being blunt, but I am calling it as I see it.


Remember that whatever you see in Cesar Millan, Victoria Stillwell or any other TV or YouTube dog trainer is edited to show the best outcomes. Their methods are far from the miraculous things they are suggested to be.


----------



## tnthomas (Jun 9, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> Well now it sounds like your solution gives her a "win." I think you are soothing a crying baby who has figured out how to manipulate you. Sorry for being blunt, but I am calling it as I see it.


Yes, that is what I told my wife, but she has done the "crying baby" soothing all her life with children and dogs, plus it's her that will loose the sleep, as she goes to bed 2 hours before I do. Outside of laying in bed and listening to Angel to her high pitched whine, there isn't much recourse I can see, at the moment.



lily cd re said:


> Remember that whatever you see in Cesar Millan, Victoria Stillwell or any other TV or YouTube dog trainer is edited to show the best outcomes. Their methods are far from the miraculous things they are suggested to be.


Understood.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

If you are staying up anyway I don't see any problem in letting her stay up with you - forcing her to go to bed before she is ready just so she doesn't "win" seems a bit daft to me! If she still wails when you are ready to sleep then that is another matter - a firm "Bedtime!" and earplugs would be my suggestion. But an hour or two's snuggling on the sofa and a last late trip out seem like a bonus for both of you.


----------



## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Glad you found something that works! I have a few things like that with my dogs, where doing things "their" way wasn't enough of a hassle to make it worthwhile to make them do it my way. Example: My dog Cleo is part-Shiba, so she makes this horrible screaming noise when she's upset (you can look up "shiba scream" on YouTube...it seriously does not sound like it comes from a dog). So when she was crate-training, we quickly decided that letting her sleep in the room with us was better than letting our neighbors think there was a person being tortured in our apartment. On the downside, she's not good at being confined away from us, but that doesn't come up often.

Putting potty and bedtime on cue is still probably the _best_ idea, because it'll make life easier if your routine ever changes or you're traveling or anything like that. But you can work your way there slowly.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I also am not thinking that you can't make a dog go to sleep when it isn't ready to, but I do think a dog should learn how to relax on its own and also to be comfortable with being in a crate.


Full disclosure (should have said this before), Javelin is a crate train failure as a puppy and now is really about a C- with how he is in a crate. I took Lily to a trial when he was a pup and BF took him out of the crate since he was howling and BF had to go to work. We never got past that battle in his first year and now I struggle with his behavior in the crate at matches, seminars and trials. He did much better when we were in Syracuse at the beginning of the month, but he wasn't great. He has destroyed several soft crates in the process of trying to get him to understand that he isn't a prisoner for life. While my need for having him be good in a crate when I tell him he needs to be is different from the needs of many folks I think this is a behavior that is transferable to being okay in a hospital cage if ever needed or at a groomer.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have almost the opposite problem - Sophy would really like me to go to bed earlier. She was well on the way to training me to go to bed immediately after the handing out of tooth treats at 8.30pm when I twigged what she was up to!


----------



## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

fjm said:


> I have almost the opposite problem - Sophy would really like me to go to bed earlier. She was well on the way to training me to go to bed immediately after the handing out of tooth treats at 8.30pm when I twigged what she was up to!


If we stay up too late, then Archie sits in the bedroom doorway and makes huffy little "woof" noises under his breath until we go to bed. It's pretty funny.

You're right, though, Catherine -- crate behavior is important, as is learning to self-soothe. Both of my dogs are at a point now where they can be confined if I'm not there (like at the vet's office, or running errands before they were potty trained), but they still lose their minds if they're in a crate and I'm in the same room. It's actually something that's made me hesitate about getting into more dog competitions with Archie, since I know it's common practice to keep the dogs crated while other dogs are in the ring.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

lisasgirl crate training for trials is something to do on its own. There is nothing sadder than to see a person drag a wild eyed dog out of a crate and struggle to get attention on the way to a start line only to have the dog go berzerkers as soon as the leash comes off. For agility and rally you have the opportunity take (and should make sure you do) course walk thrus without your dog. The most reliable way to handle this is to crate the dog. for obedience classes it is sensible to watch the heeling pattern and how the judge moves you from exercise to exercise and it is also better to do that without having to worry over your dog. But again crate behaviors are helpful at the vet and the groomer too. I have been pretty annoyed about BF taking Javelin out of the crate like that when he was a pup, but then again I didn't do much better getting him back in it when I got home either.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I did not crate train mine as puppies, but they have taught themselves through having a crate in the car. They understand Settle Down, and like the car crate as a safe and comfy place. It took very little work to build on that so that I could use the crate in classes and when travelling, so crate skills can be taught to adults!


----------



## tnthomas (Jun 9, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> Well now it sounds like your solution gives her a "win.".


She may have won a "battle" but she didn't win the "war"...last night we won.

I was very tired from yesterday's having company & entertaining activities, so I went to 

bed at 9pm when my wife does. Angel realized that she had no "leg to stand on" for whining 

to get back up...was quiet all night.

So, we know for sure that there was never a need to pee, it was all about staying up and 

having more couch time.

It's no check-mate, but Angel currently doesn't have any moves in this chess game.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Sometimes all it takes is that one moment where everybody's light bulbs go on (or in this case off) at the same moment to settle the battle. Enjoy your peaceful sleep.


----------

