# Showing and the HCC



## murieics

Does anyone show (successfully) in a HCC instead of a full continental? Is it one of those "harder but not impossible situations" or is it a situation where all dogs being equal, the one not in a full continental won't ever win? 

I've always thought it would be fun to try showing when I get my poodle (assuming its good enough conformationally to give it a shot), but I just don't think I would be able to keep up with that much coat. Not that I wouldn't be able to brush it regularly like it needs- but we live out in the country, and I feel like burrs and stickers would do too much damage to a full coat to allow it to look its best, but that something shorter could possibly be kept up better- if that makes any sense.

But mostly it's just something I've been wondering about for some time and finally decided to ask.


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## cbrand

You can show and finish a Poodle in an HCC, but....

1. That Poodle better have a near perfect head.
2. Must have very long neck to begin with.
3. Must be very short in the loin.
4. It will be much, much easier to finish a dog than a bitch.

Overall, you almost have to have a Specials quality Poodle to finish in an HCC.


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## Feralpudel

Taking a handling class is a lot of fun even if you never show the dog. I don't care for puppy kindergarten classes, in part because I don't want to teach my dog that the training building is a place to play with other dogs. Handling class was a good alternative to puppy class. 

You can also show your dog in UKC. This does not require big hair, and no professional handlers are allowed in UKC.

Sorry--that doesn't really answer your question, does it? But I agree with Carol--you need a really really really good dog to compete in AKC with the HCC. And HCC plus owner-handled...probably not gonna happen.


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## murieics

Cbrand, 

That makes perfect sense. Basically, since there is less coat, you have less ways to hide any flaws the dog has, so you need the dog to be more perfect than if it had a longer coat.

As far as dog vs. bitch, I plan on getting a dog anyway, so I've at least got that part covered.  

Feralpudel,

Handling class sounds like a great idea. I will also look into showing UKC as well- even if I eventually decide to try showing AKC, it sounds like UKC shows might be a good place to practice handling skills, get the puppy used to showing, etc. 

Thanks for the information!


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## cbrand

murieics said:


> Cbrand,
> 
> That makes perfect sense. Basically, since there is less coat, you have less ways to hide any flaws the dog has, so you need the dog to be more perfect than if it had a longer coat.


It is not that the coat covers up flaws. That is a common misconception. It is that the full continental gives a Poodle a bunch of extra help. Pulling a bubble makes the stop look more defined. A full topknot frames the face and makes the backskull look leaner. A sprayed-up topknot makes the neck look REALLY lonnnnnnnnng. The long neck hair at the back of the jacket visually shortens the outline of the Poodle. 

It is sort of like going out clubbing. You can go out with your hair pulled back in a ponytail, sans makeup and in a pair of jeans but you will be competing for attention with girls who are in full make-up, FM pumps and well styled hair. Some girls rock the jeans and no make up look. Others need a bit more augmentation.


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## JE-UK

I'm just picturing a bunch of poodles in continentals going clubbing and snickering quietly to myself ....


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## murieics

Cbrand, 

That makes sense. So, based off of your analogy is there something in between? A midway point between an HCC and a full-blown continental? You know, the girl in jeans with a bit of makeup and her hair down instead of in a ponytail? 

So maybe something in between the two clips attached (I just did a quick search and pulled these out)?


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## cbrand

murieics said:


> Cbrand,
> 
> That makes sense. So, based off of your analogy is there something in between? A midway point between an HCC and a full-blown continental? You know, the girl in jeans with a bit of makeup and her hair down instead of in a ponytail?


Yeah. You go for a really long scissored topknot that is actually lightly sprayed up for the ring. The thing is, you will still have to wrap ears and protect the holy grail of the poodle show coat.... the neck hair. By the time you do all this, you are really just a hop, skip, and jump from growing a full continental.


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## murieics

:dance: That picture is exactly what I had in mind! That dog is beautiful.  I think that is more of what I was looking for than just the HCC- I still wanted a topknot- just not quite so much hair!


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## flyingduster

Paris has enough coat to pull off a HCC look (though her topknot is tied up, it's not big enough for a regular CC) and I don't look after her neck hair much at all; she wears a flat [ie hair breaking] collar for training every week, she plays rough with other dogs and goes through bush and grass and I don't even keep it brushed as well as I could! lol. Of course if I was WANTING to have the full show coat then it'd be very different, but I like how much hair she has; it's enough to be more than the average pet, but not so much I have to worry about trying to take extra care of it.


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## murieics

Paris looks lovely!


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## whitepoodles

cbrand said:


> You can show and finish a Poodle in an HCC, but....
> 
> 1. That Poodle better have a near perfect head.
> 2. Must have very long neck to begin with.
> 3. Must be very short in the loin.
> 4. It will be much, much easier to finish a dog than a bitch.
> 
> *Overall, you almost have to have a Specials quality Poodle to finish in an HCC.*





True ! and this is why so many handlers frown on this trim and judges do not like to judge dogs sporting this trim.

Mind you, if we were encouraged by the AKC/CKC to start showing our poodles in the HCC I am willling to bet that mediocrity in quality will go down nearly to zero.. so it is not such a bad idea..


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## faerie

i think that's true. the dog would be picked on merit, not on hair.


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## whitepoodles

[*QUOTE=faerie;122008]i think that's true. the dog would be picked on merit, not on hair.[/QUOTE][/B


Absolutly, and I think that this is what prevents many exhibitors and especially profes. handlers from promoting this tight trim which basically shows all the good and bad parts a poodle poseses structurally.

OH I WISH they will allow it in future.*


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## neVar

aussies (again another breed where hair ummm is used to camo a lot of things though not in such a dramatic way) are starting to see a lot of 'wet it down" classes for fun in the ASCA shows. 

yah hose em down and go into the ring WET it's fantastic


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## whitepoodles

NeVar;

LOL that will be the day a handler will hose his poodle down and go into the ring.

What I would love to do one day is show a poodle in cords, that would be awsome to see . Ofcourse in order to have your dog look great in cordes he must be short backed long necked high stationed and have a great head and tail set. 
One day.....


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## cbrand

So Ora, will you be sending Onyx out in an HCC?  BTW.... I showed Laurel his pictures. She loved him!


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## whitepoodles

*


cbrand said:



So Ora, will you be sending Onyx out in an HCC?  BTW.... I showed Laurel his pictures. She loved him!

Click to expand...

*Carol:

I mentioned it sometime ago to my handler and she told me they would laugh me out of the ring.. 

So the following is my decision:

I will let Jenn campaign him for me starting in late 2011 in open trim (GRRR).

Once done, I will ask her to put him in HCC and I will bring him out to PCA sporting the same trim his dad was shown with in title holders.

I want to have fun with him.. He is a short backed high stationed dog with a huge neck and lovely croup/set on tail and will fit the HCC nicely so yes, I would not mind holding on to him in show coat but very tight version and having fun with him here and there on my own.

All remains to be seen how he continues to mature etc..

Wouldnt it be wonderful if we all can show our own dogs in this trim and judges will not frown upon it ? Hopeful wish

As for cords it will take much longer to grow a decent corded coat and the work involved is immense. HCC is much easier to manage.

Carol, please thank Laurel for her nice comments re: Onyx.


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## murieics

Ora, 

I think that is a great idea! I think if more dogs, upon winning their CH title, were shown afterward for a period in a more conservative clip, it would help increase the popularity of a HCC-type clip. I feel like a judge would be more likely to give a win to a dog who already has a CH title under their belt in a HCC clip than they would be to give a win to an unknown dog who was just starting out in a HCC.

I could be wrong, though. I guess it largely depends on the judge.


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## Feralpudel

whitepoodles said:


> [*QUOTE=faerie;122008]i think that's true. the dog would be picked on merit, not on hair.*


*[/B


Absolutly, and I think that this is what prevents many exhibitors and especially profes. handlers from promoting this tight trim which basically shows all the good and bad parts a poodle poseses structurally.

OH I WISH they will allow it in future.[/QUOTE]

OK, I just have to play devil's advocate here. To extend Carol's example a little bit, the HCC is kind of like a boy-cut swimsuit--not very flattering unless you are a little bit extreme. To carry the boy cut leg off, a girl has to have super long skinny legs and no hips. So in other words, I find it a little ironic that people who (pigeon holing for a moment here) favor "correctness" over "type/flash/style" also tend to favor the HCC, when arguably the HCC favors the more extreme dog. In a similar way, I think that the HCC is more flattering on a more finely boned dog. A dog with more moderate substance in the rear is better balanced by a fuller jacket. But over refinement is another charge leveled at the breed ring by the "soundness first" camp. 

With full blown conti, you can take a moderate, correct dog and give it that super typey outline that you would draw if you were doodling a poodle.*


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## whitepoodles

murieics said:


> Ora,
> 
> I* think that is a great idea! I think if more dogs, upon winning their CH title, were shown afterward for a period in a more conservative clip, it would help increase the popularity of a HCC-type clip. I feel like a judge would be more likely to give a win to a dog who already has a CH title under their belt in a HCC clip than they would be to give a win to an unknown dog who was just starting out in a HCC.
> 
> I could be wrong, though. I guess it largely depends on the judge. *





Murieics:

NO you are NOT at all wrong, actually this is a great idea !

Imagine having a beautiful specimen of breed sporting a tight HCC trim and putting several such quality dogs in HCC in AKC / CKC sanctioned shows.

WOW wouldnt that be a sight to behold.

I must bring this to the attention of some of my breeder friends, I think that if several of us do it and bring our dogs into the ring sporting the HCC, judges will start taking notice, having no other choice as they certainly can not withhold ribbons because of a clip, since according to CKC/AKC the HCC is allowed.

It would be very interesting to see a judge's face when he is faced with lets say 6 exhibits in HCC trims !!! I would love to see the day....... hopefully during my time on this earth....


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## whitepoodles

Feralpudel said:


> [/COLOR][/B
> 
> 
> Absolutly, and I think that this is what prevents many exhibitors and especially profes. handlers from promoting this tight trim which basically shows all the good and bad parts a poodle poseses structurally.
> 
> OH I WISH they will allow it in future.


OK, I just have to play devil's advocate here. To extend Carol's example a little bit, the HCC is kind of like a boy-cut swimsuit--not very flattering unless you are a little bit extreme. To carry the boy cut leg off, a girl has to have super long skinny legs and no hips. So in other words, I find it a little ironic that people who (pigeon holing for a moment here) favor "correctness" over "type/flash/style" also tend to favor the HCC, when arguably the HCC favors the more extreme dog. In a similar way, I think that the HCC is more flattering on a more finely boned dog. A dog with more moderate substance in the rear is better balanced by a fuller jacket. But over refinement is another charge leveled at the breed ring by the "soundness first" camp. 

With full blown conti, you can take a moderate, correct dog and give it that super typey outline that you would draw if you were doodling a poodle.[/QUOTE]


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## whitepoodles

[
*OK, I just have to play devil's advocate here. To extend Carol's example a little bit, the HCC is kind of like a boy-cut swimsuit--not very flattering unless you are a little bit extreme. To carry the boy cut leg off, a girl has to have super long skinny legs and no hips. So in other words, I find it a little ironic that people who (pigeon holing for a moment here) favor "correctness" over "type/flash/style" also tend to favor the HCC, when arguably the HCC favors the more extreme dog. In a similar way, I think that the HCC is more flattering on a more finely boned dog. A dog with more moderate substance in the rear is better balanced by a fuller jacket. But over refinement is another charge leveled at the breed ring by the "soundness first" camp. 

With full blown conti, you can take a moderate, correct dog and give it that super typey outline that you would draw if you were doodling a poodle.[/QUOTE]*


LOLOL ooops, I think my computer illiterate brain made a mistake (double post:doh

Valid points again depending at what you are looking for when you look at a poodle if you were a judge.

For example Onyx's father is VERY extreme yet VERY balanced and correct.
I believe I did post his photo in HCC on another thread. 

He is massive, big boned, yet not coarse, and certainly not refined (I do not like refined males, female are ok), yet the HCC trim suits him beautifully and he won many compliments at PCA and Westminster on his correctness and flashiness.

Just because a dog is very extreme and flashy and typey does not mean he lacks correctness.

Some extreme dogs are too extreme in one area of their conformation and correct in another, for example, they may have a very straight front, yet their rear end is so overly angulated they do not look balanced.
For a dog to sport and show (move) in an HCC pattern they must be sound at both ends, even if they are extreme they must be sound and balanced at BOTH ends rear and front in order to carry the HCC and make a nice picture standing, and on the go around.

If a dog is extreme and UNbalanced the HCC trim will look awful on such a dog, but if the dog is extreme yet balanced with all parts moving in harmoney due to soundness than there is no better picture than a sound dog sporting an HCC trim on the move.

I am NOT going to brag abotu my boy Cole here, but he is a moderate dog, dead sound at both ends, not flashy and not extreme, actually he is more a breeder's dog than a handler's dog and IF he were to be put in HCC trim he will look great because all his body parts are in harmony with one another and it is called soundness at both ends.

I am uploading a photo of Cole to demonstrate what correct movement is whether a dog sports a conti trim or the HCC trim both can look good if the dog is balanced, not too long in body ,or low on leg, or short necked.

Same applies to an extreme dog IF the extreme flashy necky high stationed dog moves beautifully in the ring, is sound at both ends he can carry the HCC trim even if he is extreme.

Extreme & flashy does not equate with unsoundness . The HCC trim can fit an extreme dog as it can a moderate dog, AS LONG as both types are sound and balanced .


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## whitepoodles

And here is Onxy's sire in HCC trim at PCA Nationals.

BISS Ch. HighSpirits Irrefutable, CD, RN, CGN ( Aka "Patrick" )

Note the beautiful movement due to his total balance front and rear.


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## Feralpudel

whitepoodles said:


> [
> 
> I am uploading a photo of Cole to demonstrate what correct movement is whether a dog sports a conti trim or the HCC trim both can look good if the dog is balanced, not too long in body ,or low on leg, or short necked.


Ora, that photo of Cole on the move is just beautiful. Love that all four feet are off the ground, front and back matches, and that the rear extended leg is straight. Sometimes you see dogs with overdone rears who never straighten that back leg behind them.


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## whitepoodles

Feralpoodle:
Thank you.
As I said I re iterate I did not upload Cole's photo to brag but merely to depict a standard poodle whose soundness at both ends affords him correct movement and also the ability due to soundness to sport either a Conti trim or the HCC.

The Conti trim HIDES ALOT and many a times an excellent pair of groomer's hands and a $400 pair of Scissors can give the illusion to the judge and spectator that the dog is absolutely dead sound. 

This is not always the case and many a times when certain top winners are cut down they do show thier faults, but hey. NO dog is perfect not mine not anyone else's.

Basically you choose your dogs out of each litter or buy them from other breeders taking always into consideration what faults and virtues you can and cant live with.

At the end, what counts really is the total picture the dog makes after each part is studied piece meal, but the total picture of balance or no balance counts at the end.


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## HOTW

How about an Irish HCC???


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## whitepoodles

HOTW:
OMG this is SO COOL and beautiful. Is this your spoo ? LOVE the color I love mint and I love white.. The blending of the two colors is awsome.
Did you do it ?


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## HOTW

yes thats my boy Joker it was done 3 years ago just before he truned 5. The incredible thign is he is cream not white like most creatviely dyed poodles and it was mostly Kool Aid with some Manic Panic. So needless to say my kids never got Kool Aid as kids..LOL


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## whitepoodles

LOL now they know where all the Kook Aid went to... HA HA


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## HOTW

LOL nah that wasn't why I couldnt let them drink it knowing what I have done to Poodles with it!LOL


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## Winnow

Love this look will hopefully be putting Vaka in it next week 

Easier way to get through coat change and I can show her at the same time love it.


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## Jillian

The scissor work on an HCC is also very intensive and precise, maybe harder than a full on Continental when you are blending in that head and neck.


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## bigredpoodle

whitepoodles said:


> [/B][/COLOR]
> 
> 
> True ! and this is why so many handlers frown on this trim and judges do not like to judge dogs sporting this trim.
> 
> Mind you, if we were encouraged by the AKC/CKC to start showing our poodles in the HCC I am willling to bet that mediocrity in quality will go down nearly to zero.. so it is not such a bad idea..


OOOO Ora truer words were never spoken ! Ha ! So much can be hidden by the hair ! I hate the wiggie thing and the grooming competition that is the poodle ! 
I too would like to see the HCC come into fashion .


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## bigredpoodle

whitepoodles said:


> And here is Onxy's sire in HCC trim at PCA Nationals.
> 
> BISS Ch. HighSpirits Irrefutable, CD, RN, CGN ( Aka "Patrick" )
> 
> Note the beautiful movement due to his total balance front and rear.


Very nice !


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## bigredpoodle

HOTW said:


> How about an Irish HCC???


LOVE IT how creative I love the clovers you cut in ! :congrats::congrats::congrats::


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## wishpoo

*Just AMAZING beauty !!! * Almost "floating" in the air ... gosh, some dogs are more a peace of art , than "dogs" !!!!!!


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