# Positive training or aversive with “Leave It”



## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

I know there are going to be varying opinions on my question but I do have a little problem with my Joey. He likes to eat bark and sticks. He actually eats the bark. We do our best to keep the yard clean but it’s pretty much impossible with our huge maple, neighbor’s trees and many squirrels. The first few days after a snowfall are good but then after that the yard is full of debris again.

I am very much a pretty positive trainer but I do think there are times when an aversive may be best and this is one of those times. Maybe? I’ve been working with “Leave It” and Joey is pretty good in the house and in his Obedience class.
In class they are teaching “Leave It” by
treating after they walk by stuff with the goal of phasing the treats out. Totally works in class. Definitely does not in the yard and because he actually eats the yard debris I have to teach him, now. It’s escalating and I feel like the treat for leaving it or dropping it is actually making it worse. It could be my timing but I think I’m fairly good with timing. I am wondering, being that poodles are so very smart, is Joey connecting the dots? I pick it up, I drop it, I get a treat…. Can a poodle make that connection? I feel like they can. They are very pattern oriented.

So…. Today I went out with my Bitter Apple and followed him and when he went to pick up a piece of bark, I told him quietly yet firmly, to “Leave it,” and carefully sprayed the bark and paired it with “Leave It.” After about 3 times, he immediately left things alone when I told him to without using the spray. He got it!

The first few weeks we had him he had a thing for area rug corners and I used the same approach, using bitter apple, and he quickly learned and responded immediately to “Leave It.” He rarely touches them anymore. And a quiet “Leave It” works perfectly.

I know there are varying views but I think this may be a way to nip this problem behavior in the bud quickly rather than the behavior getting more and more ingrained. I don’t want it to become a game and feel like that is beginning to happen, thus the reason for bringing up out the Bitter Apple.” Anyway, I am very curious as to how smart poodles really are! 😊


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

I do want to add that I only use the Bitter Apple with “Leave It.” “Drop It” definitely gets a reward as I’m working very hard to prevent resource guarding possibilities. I basically want him to immediately “leave it” so we don’t have to keep doing “Drop It”with the yard debris. 😊


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

They are so. Smart. I think they are often a few steps ahead of us in picking up on patterns, with the result that we draw smaller boundaries around a behavior sequence in time than they do. I think it's because we use words in ways that are communicatively efficient but narrow our powers of contextual observation, whereas that is most of how they interact with us. Like even thinking about how we would describe a behavior (my dog rolled the ball under the couch AGAIN) vs how they might experience it (a fun game where I roll the ball under the couch to get my person to stop what they are doing and engage with me) - it's embedded a longer sequence and pattern of observation for them.

I think your approach makes sense especially since Joey is doing something you don't want with the sticks and yard debris (eating them). It's not like you're ever going to let him "take it" if that's his MO, so making them less enticing as part of your "leave it" is reasonable. The only thing I wonder is if it might change your "leave it" for other kinds of things, and whether it could hurt to use another cue, like "yuck".


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Since your strategy seems to be working well I would stick with it. Your pup si smart and if you keep using this strategy while fadng the bitter apple you should get it all for the good.


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## PennyDog (Dec 23, 2021)

I don’t have a problem with Bitter Apple, but I think the usage is important. I did the same thing where I would let Penny see what I was spraying and it caused more problems than if I had sneakily sprayed the forbidden object and let her discover the yucky taste. She actually started running away when she saw I had the bottle. (sorry puppy Penny)
Do you think it would be just as effective to pre-spray the sticks, let Joey out, say “leave it” when he goes for a stick, he tastes the yuck, and connects “leave it” with “ew, that will be yucky if I eat it, so I won’t eat it”? Phew, long sentence. But basically instead of letting him see you have the bottle and see you spray the sticks, you do it behind the scenes so he doesn’t figure out that the bottle itself is what brings about the yucky taste. 5 month old Penny picked up on that fact pretty quick.


I’ve had the most success with positive reinforcement leave it, and it’s yer choice games. Its yer choice is different from leave it because the dog isn’t told to leave it, they are supposed to make the choice to leave it by default and that gets them the reward or release. Rewards other than treats, like freedom and play, are always good ideas when treats fail or cause problems.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

PennyDog said:


> She actually started running away when she saw I had the bottle. (sorry puppy Penny)


This would be my one warning. Some pups will back right down. Others will go the resource guarding route, and it won’t necessarily happen right away. I call it watering the seed of resource guarding.

A better application of this particular aversive would be to set up a “God gotcha!” moment. (I learned that delightful term from cowpony. I hope I got it right! )

Basically, you want to separate yourself from the unpleasant side effect. Otherwise you’re creating negative associations with the words “Leave It,” your approach, and/or the sight of that bottle.

Speaking from my own experience with Peggy, you really don’t want Joey to feel concern when you approach, especially when a treasure is involved.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

I appreciate the feedback. 😊I look at what’s ideal in training and then I look at what’s practical. And then of course I have to look at what is at risk. Actually eating this stuff feels very bad. I think, and I could be wrong, the actual eating of bark may outweigh the possibility of negative associations with the Bitter Apple bottle or the “Leave It” command. At least right now. I seriously would love to do the ideal thing which is the positive approach and that I wouldn’t trigger resource guarding, which is why with Joey I trade or I distract him when he actually has objects that could be unsafe or a danger., which includes the yard debris. He’s not eating massive amounts or anything but I certainly don’t want that to escalate. The early weeks it was just once in awhile and no big deal but now he is seriously searching for these things. It feels like we are in a loop that the longer it goes on the value of the object increases so I feel it’s more important to stop this behavior now. The silly dog thinks bark and sticks are tasty. We had to seriously fence all of our garden stuff because he’s loved stuff like this ever since we brought him home. Unfortunately, I can’t fence the trees. 😉

Practically, I really can’t pre spray because there is just too much. The sticks we pick up as best as we can but the bark pieces are everywhere.

I’m not a dog trainer except with my own so I’m sure I am missing something, but it seems to me it would be ok to associate “Leave It” as a negative thing. I guess that was actually my line of thinking…Leave it means it’s bad therefore I, puppy, needs to leave it. Of course I wouldn’t want Joey to equate “me “ with bad so I would fade the bitter apple out as quickly as possible. I make things happy and good immediately after too so it doesn’t feel like a big huge negative deal. He just continues on with his happy, poodle puppy self.

The reason I decided to try this approach today was because I felt like the bark was becoming more and more of a treasure and I wanted to take care of this quickly. I don’t chase and have worked hard to make it all a no big deal thing so it doesn’t escalate but i do think the behavior is becoming more practiced not to mention, the “tasty bark treats” are their own reward. 😉

As I’m writing this a thought did come to mind based on feedback.
I could actually spray some bark pieces ahead of time and bring them indoors (they are small “edible” sized pieces) and work
on “Leave Its” indoors. Not sure it would transfer to outdoors but I think it could help, perhaps? Or I could place them near our entrance. Basically, a controlled area is needed as the yard is too big. I just have to get him out of this loop.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I have a different thought on “Leave It.” I want it to be one of the most positive commands in my toolkit, second only to recall. When my dog hears “Leave It,” I want her head to snap up. I want her eyes, nose, ears, mouth all 100% directed towards me with optimism, not defensiveness or mistrust.

Of course I didn’t think this way before I experienced my first resource guarder. And there’s no way to know which dogs are going to go down that road. Joey seems like a pretty easygoing boy.

Another thing I’ve learned from my experience with Peggy, which might be helpful here, is that the more attention I pay something, the more I increase its value. Heightened negative attention is the worst for this: panic, fast approach, raised voice, etc. They all communicate: “WOW. BIG TREASURE.”


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

Totally agree that the more attention I pay to it the more the things increase. I work hard to ignore it when I can but I don’t feel I can ignore the actual eating of the treasured yard debris. I don’t chase, yell, run at him. I take things calmly and slowly. I’ve been quite consistent with a calm approach. But because he is searching more I have to pay attention more therefore, I’m sure, increasing interest, which is why today I decided my new approach was needed.

He still has two baby teeth left so I’m hoping maybe things will improve after his stubborn baby teeth are out. He finally last another one today leaving the two. I did heavily spray some bark and twig pieces and brought them indoors and sprinkled them around the kitchen and the outdoor porch area. He was perfect when I told him to Leave it. He left the pieces, no problem. He’s really good in a controlled setting. I shall keep working on it. Hopefully the yucky taste, paired with leave it will transfer to the yard as a whole. I still may need to approach him in the yard with the spray but if I can phase that out quickly, that would be good.😊

I know both Bobby and my previous dog loved wood chips when they were young although they didn’t actually eat them.


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## Miki (Dec 25, 2021)

Add in the misery of this winter in Minnesota - it's been so cold so often that trying to train outside with the actual distractions is tough for poodles and humans alike. I know I'm creating a monster by giving Tyler so much freedom in the backyard but it's a bit of choosing one's battle lately.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

So coming from someone that is 95% Force Free (some things are just unacceptable/dangerous and need swift but kind correction) something I found as I started looking for advice and trainers is that it's kind of like being Vegan. When you first start veganism, you think "oh I just don't eat animals or use body washes/makeup/shampoos that test on animals" easy, right? But then you link up with "The Community" and it becomes the never ending feat--it's like you can't eat x because it has trace amounts of animal product y, no marshmallows, no apple juice, nothing processed through bone char, don't shop here because they engaged in animal testing in the 1600's, you can't even drive because tires have stearic acid, etc etc; and so what ends up happening, this thing you were doing for your health or to help the planet or whatever wholesome reason, has you anxious, second guessing yourself, and making your world very very small. Now this isn't a dig at veganism or being force free, my overall point is, is that as long as you're being reasonable, kind, and thoughtful in what you do; it's probably best to tune out some of the extremists in any community or you'll end up tying yourself in knots about everything 😳 . When it comes to bitter apple or any other "aversive", I would ask myself 1. Does it work? 2. Is there any fall out? and 3. How does it make my dog feel? and see if the answers sit right with you and your situation. If yes, keep doing what you're doing. If not, first up your management and then look at long term solutions. Can you cordon off a section of your yard? Can you put puppy on leash until his leave it is stronger? Things of that nature

As for long term solutions, I agree with the advice above IYC is life changing but it does take a while to implement, careful mechanics, and really REALLY high value treats 








Dog Training Debate ... ItsYerChoice vs Leave It


The difference between educating our dogs they can make good choices, compared to using the traditional "leave it".




susangarrettdogagility.com





And yes your poodle can absolutely behavior chain both picking up stuff and leaving it on purpose, and avoiding you so it can go eat sticks in peace lol. They are so tricky and smart 😂


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## Miki (Dec 25, 2021)

Yep, yep, yep. There is no one-size-fits-all key. There is, undeniably, a big poodle-loving pile of folks here that share their lives and hopes and loves with the best doggos evah.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

Thank you everyone! Good advice and encouragement given. 😊Good things to think about. I think for now the approach for this particular situation is good but I will definitely keep evaluating carefully. I do believe I’m being “reasonable, kind and thoughtful.” Joey did respond very well to the pre sprayed sticks and bark that aren’t tied to me so I will focus on that particular approach for now. I will see if I can strategically put a few pieces further into the yard as he does have some favorite areas.
I think once spring rolls around it will be better too as we can rake things up. Right now, all the lovely bark pieces and twigs stand out against the snow becoming quite enticing to little Joey.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Perhaps not very helpful but both my boys were mulch and stick eaters when younger. I also did a bit of the bitter apple on a few areas, a lot of leave its with trades, and they mostly just grew out of it, I think, without incident.

This didn't translate to them leaving the rest of the yard alone. They consider it a very large salad bar. Another reason beyond potential wildlife encounters that keeps them in my sight when outside.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> Perhaps not very helpful but both my boys were mulch and stick eaters when younger. I also did a bit of the bitter apple on a few areas, a lot of leave its with trades, and they mostly just grew out of it, I think, without incident.
> 
> This didn't translate to them leaving the rest of the yard alone. They consider it a very large salad bar. Another reason beyond potential wildlife encounters that keeps them in my sight when outside.


Actually, your response is very helpful as it is very encouraging.😊 I am holding onto the hope that Joey will also outgrow this behavior. In the meantime, I will just keep him from swallowing the stuff as best as I can.
I’m guessing what I’m doing won’t fully transfer to the yard as a whole but one can try and hope! 😉


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

Ethel and Jeffrey (being my most recent puppies) went through a positive training class. Well technically Jeffrey is still in the class. Anyway we somehow always end up at the end of the line when it comes to going over commands. I've noticed both of my dogs have sat and watched the trainer go through the word, marker, treat routine with each classmate and then when it is our turn BAM done. Poodles are just so smart. Leave it is used frequently in my house with lots of praise afterwards. Unfortunately I have discovered that my dogs enjoy bitter apple spray. They will lick it happily off of whatever I'm trying to protect even as my eyes are watering and my throat is getting scratchy.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

What kind of tree bark is it? Wonder why it's so appealing to him? Does Bobby take an interest at all?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Peggy’s always munched on bits of bark, grass, twigs, etc. in the yard or when she’s winding down at the end of a play date and entering the over-tired stage.

Interestingly, for the most part she leaves similarly tantalizing stuff alone at the beach, including freshly eaten crabs and other recently abandoned shells. I think the difference is that she has plenty of other entertainment at the beach.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

94Magna_Tom said:


> What kind of tree bark is it? Wonder why it's so appealing to him? Does Bobby take an interest at all?


Maple. Definitely not toxic. I’m thinking it’s the texture.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Peggy’s always munched on bits of bark, grass, twigs, etc. in the yard or when she’s winding down at the end of a play date and entering the over-tired stage.
> 
> Interestingly, for the most part she leaves similarly tantalizing stuff alone at the beach, including freshly eaten crabs and other recently abandoned shells. I think the difference is that she has plenty of other entertainment at the beach.


Did she actually eat it or just chew it? I don’t have a problem with just chewing. Joey actually swallows pieces. He doesn’t eat massive amounts as I’m top of it. Not sure what he would do if I let him have and eat what he wants. Maybe I’m overthinking it but I worry that a sharp piece could get lodged somewhere or that the pieces wouldn’t digest or move through him.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Spottytoes said:


> Did she actually eat it or just chew it? I don’t have a problem with just chewing. Joey actually swallows pieces. He doesn’t eat massive amounts as I’m top of it. Not sure what he would do if I let him have and eat what he wants. Maybe I’m overthinking it but I worry that a sharp piece could get lodged somewhere or that the pieces wouldn’t digest or move through him.


A little bit of both. And I share your concerns. Peggy’s actually gotten a stick lodged in the back of her mouth just playing fetch, so there’s definitely some risk. Luckily, she came right to me for help.

As a puppy, it was even scarier, as she had a real thing for gravel. She loved carrying small rocks around in her mouth.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Is Joey on a leash? Theo when he first came home, for a couple of weeks was also trying to pick up mulch, small branches etc. Because I had him on a leash I had more control to his access so I could limit his interaction until we had a solid leave it command outside and in distracting situations. 

If you have Joey on a leash, you control where he goes so he’s only in contact with items you spayed. Your training will be more consistent. If he has access to items with and without bitter apple, he’ll learn to sniff before tasting; discriminating in what plant material he chews. 

i really love teaching “it’s yer choice” for starting the “leave it”. I have a twist on it thanks to Jean Donaldson. Instead of turning away from the food for a reward, I wait till my dog turns and looks at me. I expand “it’s yer choice” by putting treats on the floor; looking at me releases the treat. Finally outside, on a leash, I will let my dog get close to something he wants, but not close enough to actually touch it …. he can be straining on the leash. When he turns around and looks at me he gets rewarded. At each step he has to look at me, when he looks I give my marker word and treat. sometimes I release him to get what he wanted and sometimes not, but it’s my decision and he knows it.


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## Miki (Dec 25, 2021)

Skylar said:


> I really love teaching “it’s yer choice” for starting the “leave it”. I have a twist on it thanks to Jean Donaldson. Instead of turning away from the food for a reward, I wait till my dog turns and looks at me.


I recently realized that IYC is training me as much (if not more) than Tyler. Instead of emotionally stopping at the behavior I want Tyler to stop, his better choice moves me to a place of positive appreciation for his behavior. "Good choice!" reminds me how smart he is. Instead of stopping at "Leave it!," I remind him and me to "Make a better choice!"

This is probably just noise to Tyler, but to me those words change the context from discipline to training. To quote Joe, it's a BFD. 😉


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## Sylvia K (Feb 4, 2021)

PennyDog said:


> I don’t have a problem with Bitter Apple, but I think the usage is important. I did the same thing where I would let Penny see what I was spraying and it caused more problems than if I had sneakily sprayed the forbidden object and let her discover the yucky taste. She actually started running away when she saw I had the bottle. (sorry puppy Penny)
> Do you think it would be just as effective to pre-spray the sticks, let Joey out, say “leave it” when he goes for a stick, he tastes the yuck, and connects “leave it” with “ew, that will be yucky if I eat it, so I won’t eat it”? Phew, long sentence. But basically instead of letting him see you have the bottle and see you spray the sticks, you do it behind the scenes so he doesn’t figure out that the bottle itself is what brings about the yucky taste. 5 month old Penny picked up on that fact pretty quick.
> 
> 
> I’ve had the most success with positive reinforcement leave it, and it’s yer choice games. Its yer choice is different from leave it because the dog isn’t told to leave it, they are supposed to make the choice to leave it by default and that gets them the reward or release. Rewards other than treats, like freedom and play, are always good ideas when treats fail or cause problems.


I actually tried a variant of this with Ernie, miniature poodle today and it worked very well. He wanted to come back indoors but when I went to let him in, he picked up his 'kill' a large dead grasshopper which I definitely didn't want him to bring indoors. It was really interesting to watch the progression of his thoughts followed by actions! From outside he can see me through the glass doors and he scratches at the glass to come in. As soon as he saw me get up to go to the door he dashed to collect his 'kill'. After a short reflection I realised this would probably be a good training opportunity. So I sat down again. He quickly dropped the grasshopper and waited for me to come to the door again. Of course, he then grabbed his prize again, but every time I stopped exactly where I was and didn't move until he had dropped it again. This happened maybe seven or eight times until eventually I was right by the door. He tried one last time to grab his prize as I opened the door but I immediately shut it again, so he dropped the bug and waited quietly until I opened the door again, then walked in with an innocent tilt to his head and no more moves to grab his prize at the last moment. Success! For the moment anyway, but I'm sure this will need to be repeated periodically. for today though, I took with pleasure what Ernie gave and thanked him with a treat and a special 'good boy Ernie'. I'm not often very good at spotting and utilising these training ops that suddenly appear so today I feel pleased that my pretty ancient brain was on the ball


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## CloudPup (11 mo ago)

My situation may be different because my poodles previous owner was extremely adversive. I found that in the long run anything trained with adversive techniques only influenced behavior while i was visible. If I went out of site the motivation disappeared. For my situation making "leave it" the most fun game ever has really paid off. (It did take us about a year though and our situation was a complicated)
I wonder if putting some bitter apple sticks in the yard along with some dog safe alternatives for chewing before he goes outside would be a good way to redirect without making you the source. 
One helpful thing that a behaviorist told me about stick chewing was to look at how the stick was being chewed. If its being knawed by the teeth all the way in the back it could be stress displacement. My boy was using sticks as stress relief. Addressing the underlying stress has helped him. I also keep a toy handy to make a "trade" if a stick is getting too much attention. "Drop-it and ill give you this awesome bone" was my go-to move for a while. In the beginning I rubbed the toy (like a benna-bone) with meat to make it more appealing now hes glad to trade me the stick for whatever I have on hand. No judgment - just sharing and cheering you on.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

I have found that there are times when I must "manage" instead of "train" because I either don't see the behavior or can't respond quickly enough to interrupt it. Hence the soft mesh muzzles on both my standard boys. There's plenty of breathing room and while the dogs are supposed to be able to drink with them on. I don't keep them on for long enough to test that, and when they come inside, the muzzles come off.

I have two reasons...

Neely, the older guy (though you wouldn't know it) wants to grab Hobbes' ears when they're out playing. That's just not allowed.
Hobbes, the 2-year-old, likes to dig and eat dirt and whatever he unearths. We had a month-long episode of digestive upsets last summer, probably because of a "dietary indiscretion."
They both quickly learned that getting the muzzles on meant that they could go out and run and play in the larger yard instead of being penned up in the "potty yard." When they run out of steam or want their breakfast, they come back to the house.

A training friend did exactly the same with her young field-bred (i.e., "wild-assed") Golden after a trip to the vet's to remove an obstruction caused by something he swallowed.

In fact, I may start carrying a pair in the van, in case of emergencies. You never know...


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

mvhplank said:


> I have found that there are times when I must "manage" instead of "train" because I either don't see the behavior or can't respond quickly enough to interrupt it. Hence the soft mesh muzzles on both my standard boys. There's plenty of breathing room and while the dogs are supposed to be able to drink with them on. I don't keep them on for long enough to test that, and when they come inside, the muzzles come off.
> 
> I have two reasons...
> 
> ...


This sounds like an excellent way to prevent dietary indiscretions while also growing a positive association with the muzzle.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

As Marguerite points out there are times when management is thee best place to start. If you can't instantly make sure unacceptable behaviors then managing situations to prevent opportunities is important. Leashes, muzzles, baby gates and crates are all useful tools for this strategy.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

lily cd re said:


> <snip> Leashes, muzzles, baby gates and crates are all useful tools for this strategy.


Yep. I use 'em all! Don't forget X-pens on occasion.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

Thanks again everyone. Definitely a lot of “tools” and ideas to keep “in my pocket.” I’m finding that redirection is working pretty well right now as Joey and Bobby aren’t outdoors alone and they do play a lot which is also a good distraction from the “goodies.” I will get them going to full play mode which also helps. They love to chase. And of course, I play with them outdoors too. These things keep him from focusing on the “bark” hunt.

It does seem that while Joey is still picking up stuff, he is dropping it on his own more often so I do have hopes that he will outgrow this. In an effort to not make the stuff look so valuable I’ve decided to not worry quite so much about it. If he’s actually starting to eat the item I will ask for a drop or trade with the reward which he’s pretty good about. “Trades” work very well for both of my poodle boys. Unfortunately, “Bobby smarty pants” uses it to his advantage but that’s another story. LOL!! I find also that if I ask for a “Joey, Come,” Joey happily drops the item and rockets to me as he knows he gets a treat. If the actual eating of outdoor stuff starts to escalate I will consider leashing and those kinds of things recommended. I’m all about using tools when needed. Baby gates are still our friend for certain situations.

I still have my Bitter Apple as I do think there is a place for that but hopefully we can just phase that out. I haven’t needed to use it since last week when I started this thread.


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