# Positive Gun Dogs?



## Countryboy

FireStorm said:


> Plus, it's still very much the "good old boy" network down here. If I show up as a girl and say I want to clicker train a poodle for field work I'm going to get laughed out of the club. It's bad enough when I go to the range.


Can't help u much with clicker-training gun dogs... but now I've got a scenario in my mind that keeps me chuckling. Thanx!


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## DoeValley Poodles

*good book*

Own the book, it was helpful in the sense that it taught me how to train the behaviors I was looking for but still needed the help from an experienced hunter, hunt test/hunting dog trainer to help me understand all the different senarios and behaviors I needed to train for.


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## lily cd re

I don't know anything about the book, but will be interested to hear about your progress. I think Vixen is a PF member who has hunted with her poodles. I'm not sure she has been on much recently, but maybe you can send her a PM and the email that she should get notifying her that she has a message would get her to check in.


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## FireStorm

Thanks for the replies. I think what I will end up doing is ordering the positive book, and maybe some of the more "traditional" books as well for the general info. Maybe eventually I'll find someone who doesn't think I'm nuts, also. 

My feeling is that we will just give it a go and stick with the positive reinforcement. Best case, Hans makes a good hunting dog. Worst case, I'll have a well trained dog that is great at fetch and we will have some fun along the way. I'd like to be successful hunting with him, but it isn't the end of the world to me if we can't do it. His happiness/mental well-being is more important. 

I will definitely update this thread with our progress as we go.


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## poolann

Oh yes! I'm replying to follow this thread and I'm curious about the positive book. Dh would like Racer to work in the field because he's tired of picking up his own doves. I'm opposed to e-collars and force fetching. There's just got to be a better way.


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## ericwd9

E collars? I've heard a lot of bad things about them. Lots of people think it is a way to torture dogs. Not so. Training aids like these have found their way into guide dogs for the blind and almost all professional dog training in the field. In your own home positive reinforcement alone? will suffice. Out in the field where your dog can be 200 yards away and swimming he/she will not hear your command. period. Now about negative reinforcement! When you are using positive reinforcement to good effect you might not realize you are also using negative reinforcement anyway. Given a treat and told how much you like the behavior gives the dog a "good" feeling (partly hormonal) When the treat is NOT forthcoming and you show your disappointment this is negative reinforcement whether you might like to call it that or not. A good "E collar" would have a half mile range. It would have a "beep" on your command. This "beep" can replace or supplement the "whistle" (for whistle commands for hunting and retrieving dogs google it. use the recommended commands so that your dog understand the same commands as others in your "club") Pressing the "button" twice gives you two "beeps" which is the recall. The same collar can give a "vibration" buzz buzz this is felt by the dog and is similar in feeling to the dog to a light electric shock the same as a mobile phone vibrator. Recalcitrant dogs might require (in the beginning of training) the next setting which is electric shock!!!! I know, I know, you think its torture!!! BUT it is rarely needed and sets up the dog to not ignore the buzzer and the beep and the whistle. Do, do as I do. Put the collar on your own neck and set it up. The strength of the Buzzz and the strength of the shock are variable and can be set at any strength (in a good collar). I have used the earlier versions of these collars to train a lot of dogs. No pain was ever caused. Most all of the dogs responded to the buzzzer alone. a very few needed the shock on the first two or three days, never longer. A mild electric shock is NOT painful but for the uninitiated it is something quite new. I stress try it on yourself. Never inflict a process on your dog you would not endure yourself. period. Within a week you will not need the buzzer let alone the shock. The beep at up to a mile or so or your whistle will be all you will need. Most of the dogs I have trained suffered a LOT more if I bad mouthed them than they ever did with a training collar. The combination of positive and negative reinforcement is well known to be the most effective and humane way to train a dog or a child. Today's children are universally spoiled and know little of discipline. Many dogs have the same problem. We want to be kind. So we spend 30 years trying to train a child with kindness only. Only to see that child imprisoned and punished by the state for years. Same dogs. If you don't discipline them you commit them to years of social estrangement. If you don't discipline your dog you commit him/her to years of disapproval (which HURTS). A well behaved dog is always a happy dog. A badly behaved dog is rarely happy. Good behavior depends on primary training. Done properly your dog will WANT to please you. period.


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## Poodlebeguiled

If shocks from shock collars didn't hurt or worry a dog, they wouldn't work. The dog responds in order to avoid something unpleasant. I don't know why someone would want to do that to their dog when there are other wonderful methods which work very well. Positive punishment (adding punishment)stops a behavior. Neutral doesn't stop or start a behavior so this business about shock collars not hurting or being unpleasant doesn't wash. Withholding a reward until you get the behavior you want isn't the same as shocking a dog that hasn't had a sufficient history of reinforcement for a behavior...therefore, doesn't do it. I think these kinds of punishments are bordering on barbaric. Good for you for looking into reward based methods. They work wonders when executed properly. Timing, of course is everything.

My Dad, years ago hunted with friends. One had a chocolate Lab who was the best bird dog my Dad ever hunted with. The owner trained her himself and he used nothing but reward based training. This was eons before the clicker craze but he never used ear pinches, shock collars and other coercive methods of training. The guy worshipped his dog. Another friend had a Brittany spaniel...same type of thing. These dogs were utterly wonderful hunting dogs and house pets...just lovely. I met the Lab and she was one big, spoiled, loved on dog but exceedingly well trained. Good luck and I think it's great you're looking into this.


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## Desiree

I've have trained 2 st poos for the field. Both dogs were trained to run blind land and water retrieves. E-collars are great tools, pinch collars are great tools, food is a great tools, praise is great tools. All of these tools may be needed to get a dog trained to a certain level depending the dog's disposition, the task being trained, and the trainers expertise. Intelligent use for these tools may save you time and* can save your dogs' life* if he get's into trouble in the field.

Some suggested reading for non e-collar field training. "Training The Wildrose Way" book and DVD's. Mike Stewart uses British field trial training it's low force and highly repetitive, no force fetch. But it not food/clicker training. The dude will pick up a dog and put it back in place for breaking a stay in the DVD. I wouldn't use that method on my Poodle but for Labs it might be needed.

British Training for American Retrievers by Vic Barlow. This guy is British and explains how British training style differs for the American way. They do not use e-collars or force fetch across the pond but they do use a slip lead.

Good Luck! Have fun with your dog!


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## ericwd9

I reckon I'd break my back if I picked up a lab or spoo to return it to a "stay"?


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## Desiree

Mike Stewart looks about 6 ft. tall and British Labs are small. He actually picks up the dog by the sides of head and neck area stares him in the eye while putting he back in position. It all happens in a couple of seconds.


You guys should check out Pippa Williams on youtube. She does Gundog demos at Crufts using clickers and treats. Dogs are having so much fun!

Also go to The Labrador Forums - Index and check out their field training threads. It looks like Pippa has her own thread on there as well.

Life is short, have fun with your dogs!


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## Poodlebeguiled

If I were that aggressive with my dogs, I wouldn't have any fun and neither would they. Using sensible PR methods, I can teach a very reliable stay where the dog is not apt to break the stay as he's learning. I had my Doberman stay for 10 minutes while I was out of sight, from a distance, very reliable. And I never had to scold or be intimidating. It was just a gradual thing, breaking the 3 D's (distance, duration, distractions) into separate parts and not asking more of the dog than he was ready for at any given time. I haven't reached anything close yet with my present dogs.


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## ericwd9

I once (40 years ago) left two dogs in the "stay" outside a shop in the small town I lived in. I was distracted and left the shop by another door, walking home. Two hours later I missed the dogs and went back. They were still there waiting but not happy.
I wonder If my Grace will ever be so good?
Eric


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## Poodlebeguiled

Wow Eric! That's really something. I wonder if that's for sure a good thing necessarily. I mean, what if you had, for an example a protection dog and you asked him to stay and then someone attacked you, methinks I'd want my dog to break the stay. I guess all kinds of factors play into it. If something really bad happened, I bet your dog would have broken the stay. Pretty hard to go against pure instinct. But in most circumstances, that's pretty darn good to have a solid stay. I think of the example of a dog that's on the other side of a busy street. (how he got there, I have no idea) But then you don't want him to cross back over to you. So, a solid stay at a distance would be a good thing to know.


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## Indiana

We do 20 minute stays at the peak of our basic obedience training. After they've stayed for 20 minutes, we were told (by our instructor) they will be rock solid reliable for the shorter ones, and it seems to be true. Down stays are our dogs' best obedience component. But we're all about making it fun; we love to see the poodle tails waving when we're practicing.


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## ericwd9

The same two dogs would "stay" outside a shop for an hour or so. I would occasionally poke out my head and enforce the "stay". Passers by would tease the dogs but their little butts would be glued to the ground. On being recovered they would expect a treat and a lot of positive attention. They would only break the stay for myself and my family. It sounds excessive but it only really came about because we lived in a small town and shopped on foot with the dogs. Also I have always believed a dog should be able to "heel" without a leash reliably and with practice they sure can. Grace will heel for about a minute or two off leash before needing reinforcement of the command. She is now 20 months old. I expect her to do so for much longer when she is 3 or so. As with the "stay" about 2 or three minutes is all without reinforcing the command. I am expecting better! But maybe my expectations are too high? The two who stayed for hours were Australian sheep dogs and were working dogs too.
Eric.


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## Charmed

I do not think your expectations are too high at all.


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## Desiree

British field trial retrievers are expected to stay while a shower of shot birds fall around them and not break or make a sound. Then, they must ignore all the shot and wounded birds a retrieve a specific bird shown by the judge. Again it's different training standards for the job at hand. A 1/2 hour stay out of sight with birds and rabbits walking around the dog is the normal for training at higher levels. And we're not talking pet/show Poodle lines, these are hunting Labs that have been bred for many generations to retrieve any and all shot game including hares. Some of these dogs would rather retrieve than eat! LOL!


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## lily cd re

eric, I agree with charmed that those are not unrealistic expectations at all!


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## ROHAN-K9mm

Robert Milner's DuckHill Kennels presents its Puppy Headstart Program based on 100% positive reinforcement. Give your puppy a strong head start toward reaching his maximum potential. Robert Milner's DuckHill Kennels - British Labrador Retrievers - British Labradors of Excellence - wonderful videos on youtube. I want to go be a puppy there. Go to the website ! I loved the films I saw. I had your questions too


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## Streetcar

FireStorm said:


> Thanks for the replies. I think what I will end up doing is ordering the positive book, and maybe some of the more "traditional" books as well for the general info. Maybe eventually I'll find someone who doesn't think I'm nuts, also.
> 
> My feeling is that we will just give it a go and stick with the positive reinforcement. Best case, Hans makes a good hunting dog. Worst case, I'll have a well trained dog that is great at fetch and we will have some fun along the way. I'd like to be successful hunting with him, but it isn't the end of the world to me if we can't do it. His happiness/mental well-being is more important.
> 
> I will definitely update this thread with our progress as we go.


I've an acquaintance of some years who is in Vizslak (and Dobermans) and she does extensive hunt training (and conformation, and agility, and obedience) which is force-free and positive, and her dogs have titled. I'm guessing it's doable with a Poodle, too .


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## JenO

FireStorm said:


> Does anyone know anything about this book? It's called Positive Gun Dogs: Clicker Training for Sporting Breeds. Here is a link: Positive Gun Dogs: Clicker Training for Sporting Breeds (Karen Pryor Clicker Books): Jim Barry, Mary Emmen: 9781890948337: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> I'm thinking about ordering it...Hans is doing so well with his retrieving so far, and we've been doing just positive reinforcement training with him. So far all of the clubs I know of in my area use what I would consider "old school" methods...they still use coercion/negative reinforcement even for basic obedience so I can't see taking Hans to any of their training sessions. Plus, it's still very much the "good old boy" network down here. If I show up as a girl and say I want to clicker train a poodle for field work I'm going to get laughed out of the club. It's bad enough when I go to the range.


Are you a hunter already? I'm in the same boat, planning on getting a poodle puppy and would like to eventually train it to do field work (upland game), and am probably going to end up as the newbie hunter with the unusual breed (for hunting) trying to do positive reinforcement training. And I'm also a woman. Oh well!
This thread has been super helpful, I'm still totally on the fence about e collars and need to learn more about them before I make a judgement. Thanks for all the info, everyone!


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## Streetcar

I don't know the book, but do know someone in Vizslak who trains using force-free methods including hunt training, and she's doing well with it.

Not sure where you are located, so I've no idea if I might have a resource for you or not. I'll try and reach her to see if she's okay with me sharing her info if you'd like.


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## Desiree

You should also check out James Spencer's books like Retriever Training for Marsh and Meadows. He doesn't use e-collars, but I haven't read his stuff.


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## FireStorm

Many thanks to all who have replied! I've been waiting to post more until I'm at a computer with time to write something coherent (I'm usually on my phone or tablet and at work). Between work and the holidays, things are pretty crazy. 

I finally just ordered the book I asked about originally today, so I'll report back once it gets here and I read it. 

Hans has been doing so well. Our situation is kind of unique. We pack parachutes, so we work at a small private airstrip. Hans goes to work with us, and we practice retrieves (and anything else we are training) on the airport in between loads. So most of his training so far has taken place with the distractions of airplanes taking off and landing, parachutes landing, tandem passengers, spectators, kids, other dogs, etc. His basic obedience (stays, recall, down, sit, etc) is rock solid off lead with distractions (mostly a function of us having lots of time to practice in the distracting environment). If I thought I needed an ecollar for the commands I feel can be safety issues (down, stay, recall) I would use it, but I have followed the directions in the Jean Donaldson book "Train Your Dog Like a Pro" and he is solid, even with us out of sight. It isn't that I think ecollars are inherently evil, it's more that I'm super impressed with the training we've done so far and I don't want to undo it. I've got a young dog that is super happy to work and turning into a very reliable guy (he's still a bit of a puppy in my mind). I don't want to undo that. If anyone wants the info on how we taught the stays I'd be happy to write it up later when I have more time. I'm really impressed, and I was skeptical at first. 

I don't want to force fetch him because I haven't seen a need for it (and honestly, the theory behind it doesn't make sense to me after what I've been researching about learning theory). We had a pretty good test the other day. Hans has a buddy, a Yorkie named Teddy, that is at the airport. Teddy is a bit of an escape artist and he doesn't listen to his owner, so he got out of the office and came to play while Hans was mid retrieve. I was expecting Hans to forget the dummy and go play with Teddy because he REALLY likes to play with him, or to take the dummy and go play, but he didn't. He kept right on trucking, got the dummy and delivered it to hand like a pro with Teddy chasing him the whole time. Of course he was handsomely rewarded for that! 

Jen, I haven't hunted before. I've shot clays a lot and collect shotguns so I figured I should try it. At least I know I can shoot. I do have access to quite a bit of land and I can get quail, so I do have the option of planting quail when we get to the point where I need to use real birds. And Ian's dad has done tons of hunting but is new to the positive training techniques. So I do have some help there...

I definitely appreciate the book recommendations and any other info anyone can offer. I'm curious to see how Hans continues to progress.


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## Desiree

Sounds great! Please keep us posted on your training as I'm always looking for better training ideas. I may have a litter next year and will be doing more spaniel training than retriever methods on these pups. 

Good Luck! Have fun with your dog!


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