# Bad Black vs. Blue



## KalaMama

I don't mean to beat a dead horse but I still don't totally understand the bad black versus the blue. Basically, I am trying to figure out which I have. Kala is out in the sun some, but not that much. She looks brown on all of her jacket hair unless you look at the roots(which are black). Everywhere else is still pretty black except for her muzzle which has white/gray flecks and looks to be graying more around the nose. Her pigment is black. Is there a definite way I can tell if she is a bad black? Would a pedigree help?


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## BFF

I've had the same curiosity about Zulee. Not that it matters, but it would be nice as a poodle fanatic to know what color my poodle is. I've been waiting and watching her coat change by the month. Her legs are almost completely silver blue now. Her muzzle is lighter with silver and the hair above the eyes is changing. Her back looks black, but can have a gray shimmer depending on the light. She has had brown highlights ever since I got her.

She has silver guard hairs coming in on her back. Is it possible to have a grizzled blue? When does a grizzled black become grizzled? Does this happen with age rather than a coat clear?

Sorry Kalamama. I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I have the same questions.


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## KalaMama

BFF said:


> Sorry Kalamama. I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I have the same questions.


Oh no, I don't care. I just hope there is a definite answer. Is gray a color or is that just a bad black? 

I still want to show Kala once her coats is grown out enough but I am assuming I shouldn't show a bad black? I am afraid if the judge asked me her color and I said black, then he/she would put her at the bottom for sure. If I said blue and she is in the middle of changing colors that might sound better. I don't know if she is a blue though.


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## Cameo

I've posted this link before, which has some great color information on it. Hopefully it will help you determine what color your girl is  OH, what color is her skin (like on her muzzle and face)?

http://arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com/

If I remember correctly, a black will have light skin and a blue will have greyish skin. 

BFF, I think your's is a silver that is in the process of clearing. Pretty either way


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## KalaMama

Cameo said:


> I've posted this link before, which has some great color information on it. Hopefully it will help you determine what color your girl is  OH, what color is her skin (like on her muzzle and face)?
> 
> http://arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com/
> 
> If I remember correctly, a black will have light skin and a blue will have greyish skin.
> 
> BFF, I think your's is a silver that is in the process of clearing. Pretty either way


Thanks Cameo. I did read that entire article this past weekend but I still don't know for definite because she has similarities to both a bad black and a blue. Her skin has a bluish tint but I thought all blacks had that as well. Maybe there is just no definite answer right now. I am impatient


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## Salukie

Zulee looks like a phantom (black and tan, or chocolate and tan)










It's hard to tell from the pictures.


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## Salukie

KalaMama:

Black: All hairs are black from root to tip. Shaved face is black.











Blue: All hairs are the same shade of grey from root to tip. (Puppies are born black and their coat gradually changes to grey) Shaved face is grey.

Poodle in front is blue, poodle in back is black.









Blue poodle:










Bad Black: Most of the coat is black with many white hairs mixed in. From a distance, when you can't see the colour of the individual hairs, the dog looks grey. Shaved face is black.

Can't find a picture of this, sorry.

Most black dogs get white hairs as they age. A black poodle is a bad black when it starts getting a lot of white hairs at a young age.

Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong.
 I hope this helps.


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## Salukie

Old Blue poodle:










If you ignore the greying around the muzzle, all the individual hairs are grey.



Old Black poodle:










Again, ignore the greying muzzle... look at the topknot, you can see white hairs mixed in with the black. 

This would be a bad black if the dog was young.


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## BFF

Lots of great information.  

I think Zulee is a bad black because she has black hair with lots of silver mixed in. Her legs and chest are completely silver/grey, so maybe she will have a phantom pattern when she is done clearing. Her muzzle has black hairs with lots of silver/grey mixed in. Her skin is very light silver or pink depending where you look. Silver on her back and pink belly. I don't shave her face close enough to see the skin. As a wee little pup it was black. She is the one on the left in the picture.

Course there is still the question about the brown highlights and why some of the black hairs are lightening over time. If she turns out to be silver that would be neat too. I just don't think her face is an indication of a real silver.

Maybe I just don't realize what a grizzled black is vs a maturing black getting gray hairs.

I do appreciate the examples. Maybe with a little more time, the mystery of Zulee's color will come clear to me.


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## BFF

D'oh.... here is Zulee's puppy picture. She is on the left.


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## partial2poodles

My Dassin black bitch has truely jet black gums and roof of mouth. Only 1 of her sons has that trait. I am guessing that the other sons will be silver or blue. I really don't hate any color but I reaaly dislike bad blacks


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## bluespoomommy

My blue spoo @ 6 months...she is brown tinted all over and lots of black roots too as you describe your poodle to be. Lots of light gray/silver hairs throughout her face and paws too. Leg color is a lighter brownish color than the dark brown on her body. Also her face is a rather dark gray with an even lighter shade of gray at the muzzle...

My spoo is definitely blue...your sounds like it might be too?


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## Olie

bluespoomommy said:


>


Love this top knot


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## Reesmom

My Allie is a "bad blue" from what I have been told by friend that shows dogs. She has brown tints, her legs have a lot of sparse white hairs mixed in, and she has some darker black spots. She is 9, and is definitely a blue. It could just be that you will have to wait to see how Kala clears.


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## Ruscha_Baby

Cameo said:


> I've posted this link before, which has some great color information on it. Hopefully it will help you determine what color your girl is  OH, what color is her skin (like on her muzzle and face)?
> 
> ARPEGGIO POODLES
> 
> If I remember correctly, a black will have light skin and a blue will have greyish skin.
> 
> BFF, I think your's is a silver that is in the process of clearing. Pretty either way


That link you provided really does describe blue properly. They are born apparently black, but with white hairs in the centre of their pads. They will photograph under flash as brown, and clear to a cracking deep black with blue tint.

Just discovered my toy is blue. Over the moon.


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## Catriona

I was reading up a lot on this as well as Ollie has brown patches on his back and legs so I thought maybe he might turn blue. Now I def think he is a bad black as his muzzle is very black, and he is a mis-marked too and bad blacks often come from parents that are other colours or have other colours in their family tree! 
I read somewhere that blue's can take up to 3 years to clear... and from the pictures I'd say she is a blue. Keep taking lots of pictures so you can keep a record of the colour change!


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## Ruscha_Baby

My blue girl. Approx 60% cleared.


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## Eclipse

Catriona,

My girl is from a blue dam and black sire and there were blacks in the litter as well as blues known to be blue from the start. There were a couple that there was uncertainty about, mine being one of them. She stayed black until she was about 2 1/2 and then began to change. She is about 2 in my signature picture. She did get the reddish tinge when she was about 1 1/2 and I suspected then she wasn't going to hold black. I was also told by a breeder who breeds blues that they can take up to 5 years to clear and that is what has happened with my girl. She started to change dramatically when she turned 4 and now is almost 5. Her head/ears are still darker, but even they are starting to clear now as well. She will stay a dark blue, but a blue nevertheless. I had actually wanted a black, but have to say the dark blue has really grown on me and I would not hesitate to get a blue again. The attached picture is her earlier this summer, she is actually just a bit lighter now.

Eclipse


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## murphys

"Most black dogs get white hairs as they age. A black poodle is a bad black when it starts getting a lot of white hairs at a young age."

How do you define a lot of white hairs, how many and at what age? I looked up the definition of "bad black" and read the above. I don't know what that means.

Fritz is 9 months old and has some, less then 15, probably less then 10, on his lower back. Black or bad black? 

Thanks for the clarification in advance.


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## RmR

I'm assuming that Milo is a blue. He has silver hairs between his paws and more and more silver throughout his body as time goes, and sometimes it looks like he has brown tinged hair. 
This is a picture of him from November last year (bigger version of avatar):










I've noticed though that he's getting some black guard hairs along his back lately. I have to try and get another picture of him soon.


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## Cin3dee

Milo is really cute


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## 2spoos4me

Up until now I thought my girls were black...now I am wondering...I always thought it was odd how light their faces were after shaving...are they actually a blue?


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## 2spoos4me

^^Oh they are just over 4 months if that makes any difference...and faces were taken down with a 10 blade.


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## WindSwept Poodles

Yes 2spoos4me I would say your 2 girls are most definitely blues they look like they will be light blues to. They look just like my girl Rayne and my boy Rhino did at that age both are light blues. Light blues clear to a beautiful color in my opinion.


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## Ruscha_Baby

I agree - light blue.


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## outwest

Yes, they are both blues and I agree they look like they will be fairly light blues, too. Blue is a very pretty color! You wouldn't see any difference in blackness between the face and body in a black. Jazz is a black and his shaved face is as black and shiny as his body (7 months here)


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## genuineljl

*Black, blue, or bad black?*



murphys said:


> "Most black dogs get white hairs as they age. A black poodle is a bad black when it starts getting a lot of white hairs at a young age."
> 
> How do you define a lot of white hairs, how many and at what age? I looked up the definition of "bad black" and read the above. I don't know what that means.
> 
> Fritz is 9 months old and has some, less then 15, probably less then 10, on his lower back. Black or bad black?
> 
> Thanks for the clarification in advance.


Did you ever receive an answer to this? I'm curious because I have the identical situation with my 6 month old poodle. In addition to the few white hairs on her lower back, I found one white hair in her top knot. I have not noticed any white hairs between her paw pads.


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## Johanna

Kalamama, if your standard has a great deal of Wycliffe breeding behind her, she is probably a "bad black". I see that you live in Alabama - if she goes back to my dogs (Jaylee and Britan) she is likely a bad black. I never was too concerned about blacks not being jet black since there are so many other aspects that are more important to me (temperament, health, and structure - in that order).

I have not lived in west Florida since 1988, but I suspect there are some standards in that area descended from the ones I bred.


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## Johanna

Kalamama, if your dog goes back to Wycliffe breeding, she is probably not going to be inky black. I used to live north of Pensacola, FL and bred under the kennel names of Jaylee and Britan. All my dogs were either black or brown, and many were "bad black". I never was too concerned about that because my primary concerns were temperament, health, and structure - in that order.

Although I left Pensacola in 1988, I suspect there are spoos in the area that are descended from mine. If you happen to have one, I'd be glad to give you any info you might want.


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## Anza

Anza came from a litree of blues and blacks. I was told that she is blue. I believe that she is, I remember my black poodle to be a lot blacker


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## zooeysmom

Anza said:


> Anza came from a litree of blues and blacks. I was told that she is blue. I believe that she is, I remember my black poodle to be a lot blacker


Yes, she is a beautiful blue.


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